On September 1, 1897, the Tremont Street Subway began running Between Park Street, Boylston, and I believe Arlington as well. This section of the subway is of course now apart of the Green Line. To all my fellow Boston riders: HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! -Nick
I had been on at least some sections of all Boston lines (Red, Blue, Orange and Green) during a weeklong visit to Beantown in the summer of ’88. My take on all this was: The third rails were always exposed (that is, with no cover on top a la New York), the Red Line had dimensions similar to the IND, the Orange and Blue IRT-esque, and Green Line reminiscent of trolley cars. To be sure, I was interested in all the differences.
Thanks for the reminder, Nick. I'll have to take a ride on the Green Line at lunchtime.
Here's a CBS News report from the 100th anniversary of the T done three years ago today.
My pleasure, Todd....and thanks for the cbs link as well. I hope you enjoyed your "century plus" ride :) -Nick
i would appreciate your ratings views suggestions opinions you liked these photos & or you hated them all etc... ( whatever & who ever )
also i just posted my ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM pics with most of the (PE)
los angeles pacific electric railway cars on display in the hot desert sun in riverside county, peris california usa..!!
also some new digital pics at 7th & metro center I recently bragged about !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications thank you very much for checking these pics !
Ridership is up on the HBLR, reports the
Star Ledger, to 5100 trips/day, up 35% from 3700/day in May. Officials had originally forcast 18,400 trips/day for this phase. The discrepancy reportedly comes from "bad planning estimates". Incentives are being undertaken until Dec 31 to increase ridership: free parking in park-and-ride lots and all-day riding for one $1.50 fare on weekends.
the Star Ledger
The statement in the linked article -- for a working link, please go to the original post -- that the segment from Exchange Place to Newport would be open in November inspired me to take another look yesterday.
The results: 1) The NB track still curves over onto the SB track at a switch south of Harborside. An incomplete tail end of the NB track starts a few feet north of the beginning of the curve and is continuous from that point at least to the point north of Newport where one loses sight of it on the elevated structure. The SB track is continuous from Exchange Place as far north as the eye can see it from ground level.
2) The catenary wire is up from Exchange Place to a point where the elevated portion crosses Newport Avenue (north of Newport Center).
3) Signals are in the process of being installed between Exchange Place and Newport.
4) Stations are substantially complete, with a small amount of finishing up remaining.
In sum, to a casual observer, it looks like they could open in two or three weeks. (That means that mid-November is probably a good guess.)
Regarding further extension, the steel work is in place as far as the earthen ramps on the north side of 18th Street and it looks like at least some preliminary work has started on refurbishing the disused rail bridge over Marin Blvd. The concrete deck is in place up to 18th Street.
Yesterday, around noon, while waiting at the 34th St/6th Ave. IND station for my usual D train a Q train pulled in. The conductor on this Q train did something I have never heard before. Before he made the annoucement regarding changing there for the shuttle I distinctly heard an unusual sound, you know the sound that whistling type sound they use on naval vessels before they make an annoucement sort of like woo-OOO-ooo.
I thought it was hilarious the conductor imitated it perfectly and people on the train paid attention to the announcement. Maybe they should consider installing it on new trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your refeing to a Bousins Whistle (I can't spell it), a tube with a bowl on the end. Place the ball just below your thumb on the pad of your hand, cover over with your hand. Open and close hand to get the rising and falling sound. I have one, when I crewed a 50ft Ketch that was slooped rigged on Long Island (Northport) when I was 16.
That Is All
Bos'n or boatswain
USE OF BOATSWAIN'S CALL
HISTORY.----- As far as English ships are concerned, the call can be traced back to the days of the Crusades, 1248 A.D. As far back as 1485 A.D., it was used by the English as an honored badge of rank, and was then worn by the Lord High Admiral of England. It was probably worn because it has been used as a method of passing orders. When the Lord High Admiral, Sir Edward Howard, was killed in action off Brest in 1513, a "whistle of honor" was presented by the queen mother of France to the officer who commanded the French galleys on this occasion. From about that time it was no longer worn as a badge of rank, and it reverted to it's original use and was employed only as a method of passing orders. About 1671 it was referred to as a "call" and by this name it has been known ever since. In our Navy it is often referred to as a "boatswain's pipe"
--- The Bluejackets' Manual 1943 (11th ed) (C) 1938,1939,1940.1943 U.S. Naval Institute, Annapolis, MD
***Legal Notice***
The above was a verbatim quote from the referenced work less than 400 words in length and proper source credit was given.
Bosun's whistle? Naw. I just use my lips on an angle from the mic plate so the wind doesn't distort the sound into the speakers.
I thought you were doing it yourself, good show!
Peace,
ANDEE
OK ok, That was me. I get frustrated sometimes, so it inspired me to creativity. I also flash the lights on and off at 34/6 too. It's the only way to get people's walkmans off and their haeds out of the newspapers. Otherwise they come up to me at 57/6 and say: "This is the last stop? Why wasn't there an announcement"?
Weekends on the D are worse with no Q, no B, no E, no F, D making local stops, C making express stops ad nauseum. As I am sure you noticed I make those annoucements slowly, clearly and loud. Yet there always seem to be a few idiots alongside the window who need to be led by the hand.
I make an announcement at 125 regarding local stops on the weekend D like this:
THIS TRAIN WILL MAKE AaaLLLLLLL L O C A L STOPS. ALL LOCAL STOPS. ALL STOPS ALL STOPS. 116, 110, 103, 96, 86, 81, 72 ALL LOCAL STOPS!
Yet there will still be a moron standing right there at the window actually listening to me say this who will ask: "Do you stop at 96"? I'd love to smack them, but I need to feed my family.
You should have heard the laughter one day at WTC E. I announced:
"Good evening ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. If you would return your seatbacks and tray tables to their upright position and fasten your seatbelts; we're ready for take off." Of course the local superintendent didn't find it quite so funny. They're too many anal retentive people in this place.
One afternoon on my commute home, the trains on Washington's Red Line were running late because of a computer glitch, and tempers were running high. When I finally got on the train, our T/O kept up a running commentary. When we pulled into especially busy transfer stations (Metro Center and Gallery Place), he would make an announcement that was something like this.
This is Metro Center, transfer point to the Blue and Orange lines on the lower level. Those on the platform, please let those departing the train to do so before you try to board. For everyone that leaves, it makes room for two more. Please squeeze in to the train. If you find someone you know, squeeze up next to them. If you don't, introduce yourself! "Hi, my name is Darrell." This is the Red Line to Silver Spring.
He kept up a fairly regular banter from Farragut North where I got on to Union Station, then it returned to the normal type of announcements. I think it lightened everyone's mood on the train. I think he missed his calling and should have been on the radio, but anyway . . .
I figured it was you when I saw the post!
A little bit of creativity can go a long way to improving morale, and getting the message across. I think the public generally likes it!
That ok they do that at 125 Street every afternoon. The Dispatcher and Conductor both say "This is a PELHAM EXPRESS, PELHAM EXPRESS,". But there are always some people that come up to ask in I'm an Express then I say yes then someone will say "Do you stop at Soundview Ave". It all comes with the 8 HRS.
Hey Erik, how many times while you're working do you notice some putz sitting 15 feet away from your position wearing a walkman that's so loud YOU can hear it? (Above the roar of the train among other things) You're always going to have people with their heads up their asses in these situations. After 13+ years I've resorted to just making one good, clear announcement regarding a service change, delay, etc. Whoever hears it, (ususally about 95% of the crowd) well good for them. Whoever dosen't hear it, tough sh*t.
That was you? I thought it was GREAT.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll bet Michael Winslow could do it.:-)
Oh yeah, Michael Winslow could do any sound but, has anyone ever heard him talk?
Peace,
ANDEE
HI, Does anyone what line,what subway cars and what subway stations were used in the movie where were you when the lights went out?
HI, Does anyone know what lines,what subway cars and what subway stations were used in the movie where were you when the lights went out?
I remember that EYE was on the #7 just coming up under the East river and the power failed before we reached Vernon-Jackson, but our T/O let here roll so the the first car made it to the station. Then I had a long walk home that night. Eye was 1 of the lucky 1s.
Mr t__:^)
There is a train of R-1/9s signed up as an HH stranded in a tunnel. No stations. The conductor is played by the same fellow who played the Maytag repairman in all those commercials.
>>>The conductor is played by the same fellow who played the Maytag repairman in all those commercials<<<
Who, Jesse White (deceased) or the new one Gordon Jump?
Peace,
ANDEE
DAMN! It had to happen. The R-142 Test Train (6301-10) gave way on Day 17 of it's test run. Making it's way out of 241 St after 10 this morning, it made it's way into Manhattan, but suffered a failure (cause unknown to me), resulting in the train's exit from service and deadheading back to East 180th St Yard. It's time to reset the 30 day clock again....
-Stef
P.S. 6311-20 are on the road in testing as of this post.
(DAMN! It had to happen)
I was going to try and catch it today!!
Have a nice holiday !!!!
one of my spies claims that when 6311-6320 went by and was braking, that it made the sounds of an r9... he also claims that the interior was lit by incandescent light bulbs and that in place of the station locator display, there was a map from the late 1940's... he theorizes that in case the new technology cars do not pass acceptance by 2032, that the r1/9's will be remanufactured to celebrate their 100 year anniversary... they will have an r-142 exterior, but with all r1/9 interior components, thus ensuring that they will last forever....
LAL!
Oh boy... I see you're one of those who loves the past....
What's wrong with living in the past? Some things were better !!!
Like higher speeds on almost all lines (less timers for example)
Have a nice holiday !!
Heypaul, did this source make a tape recording?:-)
heypaul for MTA President!
heypaul, I think you're right!
I believe there is a special MTA Capitol Budget Program regarding the rebuilding of R-142's as R-1/9's in the event of complete system-wide failure of the R-142 test trains.
How very preceptive of you! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
That's not what I heard - it's supposed to be dressed up as an R-16 inside, complete with slanted door pockets and peeling ceiling paint!
:o>
wayne
I can't say that I'm sorry to hear that...
Once all the equipment has been changed to that new-fangled "modern"
look, the NYC subway will be far less attractive (to me anyway).
Well that's technology for you. It's supposed to advance, not go backwards.
Remember the debacle with the R44/46's. The TA went back to the 'basics' and removed a lot of the high-tech stuff.
Have a nice holiday !!
Two questions:
1) What did they remove from the R44/R46?
2) What do you think they will remove from the R142/R142A?
And while we're on the subject, a 3rd question: is there anything in the R142/R142A that was removed from the R44/R46?
Yes, I remembered. However, you can't compare then with now.
More than 25 years ago, New York City had financial crisis. Little money caused deferred maintenance, which killed the subway system. It is hard to put high-tech stuff in the system right away. The philosophy of buying cars had changed because they really need new cars to replace the old ones.
TA introduced R110A and R110B in 1992. They had more than five years to get used to the high-tech stuff. They knew which technology worked the best in the system. They put a new philosophy of buying cars: know the new-tech first before placing a large order instead of being used as a white rat like the R44/R46 order.
Time is different now. You can use the R44/R46 as a painful experience, but you can't use these two orders as an excuse to reject new technologies.
Chaohwa
Stef i saw that train around after 11am today & they were heading back to 180th st Yard. I knew they have to reset the clock again.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
The R-142s have returned to service. They were spotted at 3:50PM, heading south into 149th St and 3rd Ave. Whatever the problem was, it was corrected quickly.
I also observed 6311-20, making it's rounds, and found a door on 6314, not functioning. They're (Bombardier, Kawasaki) gonna have to get this right sooner or later.
-Stef
Speaking of the R142 and R142A, the schedule is NOT accurate. There is a run in each direction I need to add for the 6 leaving Pelham Bay Park shortly after 6 and its return trip.
She was back on the road today; subway-buff and I spent over three hours on it today, going from Pennsylvania (at 9:28AM) to 241st Street, then to Flatbush Avenue and back to Hoyt Street (12:36PM).
A nice ride, no problems to report; the automatic annunciator made an error approaching 135th Street (which they corrected), the train was quick and smooth, the A/C worked well and it was actually rather comfortable. We rode in cars #6304, #6301, #6307 and #6310.
I saw four bunches of Kawasaki R142-a in the Unionport Yard. These were the 7226 bunch, 7236, 7241 and 7246 bunch.
wayne
Oops I forgot! - we had the pleasure of the company of Mr. Bill Newkirk aboard the R142 today, from southbound Pennsylvania to Flatbush and back to Atlantic Avenue.
The R142 does not make the same regenerative braking sounds as the R142A does.
wayne
09/02/2000
How soon we forget! A sign of old age ya know.
Anyway, my first ride on the elusive R-142's (Bombardier). Both trainsets (142 & 142A) share the same thing. the final stop when braking is a little rough. I did notice the the differences on the two trainsets interiors. Well, after departing Wayne and Subway Buff (Peggy), I split for the other Newkirk Ave (D)(Q) for a haircut on Newkirk Plaza upstairs. Then took the (D) to Prospect and the Shuttle to Botanic Garden for a #4. After boarding a #4 which took me to Brooklyn Bridge, the R-142A was pulling out as we pulled in. Stayed on until 14th St-Union Sq. where I caught it.
Rode both trainsets in one day, now I can sleep nights!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm glad to hear you guys went out. Take any photos along the way? Thanks for the report.
-Stef
P.S. I'll post some stuff about R142A deliveries separately.
I thought I'd take the moment to share with those who are interested what I've observed regarding the R-142As, today, 9/02/00.
Passing on Metro North to Croton Harmon today for a photo shoot of FL9ACs and Commuter Coaches, the Kawasaki Car Plant was a flurry of activity. I'd estimate that there are about 20-25 142As sitting outside the facility with several still unassembled. 7209 is among those sitting outside. Testing was in progress with one set of cars. Just to tell you how far the car builder has progressed, you can find 7261-65, and 7271-75 at that location, among those waiting to enter the system. 7275 appears to be the latest car out of the plant, but I imagine that in no time, we'll be seeing 7300 series cars. The trackage outside of the plant appears rather small, but it's suffucient enough to do road tests. A few 5 car sets appear complete, with one set missing the lead A unit, and was attached to a small track mobile for movement.
There are no signs of any additional Bombardier Cars as of yet, but my eyes and ears are open.
At Unionport Yard, one can find, the R-142As, 7236-50, 7226-7230 with one 10 car train siiting on one track, and two 5 car sets sitting on other tracks. 7231-35 have apparently been released for testing as there is no sign of them at the moment.
An additional comment that I would like to make is regarding 7209 and 7210. The information on this site says that the contract of Kawasaki's begins with 7211. I think it's safe to say that the contract actually begins with 7201. We're bound to see a complete 7206-10 set at some time.
Production is coming along nicely. Anyone think the carbuilder or the TA is worried about the initial test trains not passing the 30 day tests? Think again. The cars are coming in...
-Stef
09/02/2000
[Passing on Metro North to Croton Harmon today for a photo shoot of FL9ACs and Commuter Coaches, the Kawasaki Car Plant was a flurry of activity. ]
Stef,
Is it safe to assume that the MARC bi-level production is over and all attention is now focused on the R-142A'S
Bill "Newkirk"
This appears to be the case. There wasn't a single shell to be found at the plant. Kawasaki's attention is now turned to the 142A project, and they'll be busy with that for several months.
-Stef
Where are the photos?
You're asking for photos? I don't think I can get anything out to the webmaster that fast. Plus, the photo shoot wasn't really being done by me, but by a friend who's interested in modeling Metro North equipment. We would have liked to have gotten a shot of the plant, but conditions weren't suitable enouugh. Take my word for it. Go to the Yonkers Station on Metro North. You'll find plenty of cars there.
-Stef
Unfortunately i live in Orlando,Fl, and i can't go to NEW YORK any-
time soon. Buy the way i am looking for some photos of meto north
GP-35R's, i have a KATO undec GP-35 i'am making it a MN can you
help, i will appreciated.
Thanks R-29.
No matter when the 30 day clock starts or stops, it is only a paper entry. The cars will be accepted no matter what. The TA is totally committed to these cars.
That's true. It would be nice if they could iron out the bugs on the cars, though.
-Stef
The same story is true here in Boston. The first Type-8 trolley from Breda was delivered on January 31, 1998 (over 2-1/2 years ago!) and they are still not running. While seven have been "accepted," they have been pulled from the rails while modifications are made.
Just as in NYC, it will eventually get worked out.
Believe it or not, the same thing happened with the Boeing 747. There were hundreds of test flights, which resulted in many modifications. Eventually, it received certification and is now a highly-reliable transportation machine.
Yea it's not a swap show very much anymore :-(
Too many into it for money now. Sat. the 9th I've commited to working on the R-17 at Branford, so I'll miss another of these shows, well maybe the next one.
BTW, my collection stands at 200 NYC MCs, plus 6 Transfers, 97 out-of-town MCs (I've made some friends at Atlanta, Chicago, Philly, Washington D.C. & Boston) & 9 foreign ones, plus 3 out-of-twn Trans & 2 foreign ones AND 24 tickets & 19 MC holders. And I'm most proud of the fact that I spent almost no money on them (not counting MCs bought & used in NYC).
P.S. Some of the cards in my collection have a very special meaning. I have a couple of otherwise not to special cards that a dear friend in Boston needs to turn in 11 of his 12 monthlys to get a break on his insurance, he's thought of me two years in a row. NEXT there is my set of LIRR Mail-N-Rides from 8 lines. The guy that I made the swap with was just starting up his collection, now he's into it more then me. ALSO I did a swap meet on the street (at 14th) with a guy who would only do it in person. I was on my way back to College Point from a meeting in Brooklyn. AND my friend in Atlanta probally saves his monthly cards in a drawer. When there is a bunch of them I get an envelpe. Recently he asked if I could provide a set Millennial Journeys for a friend of his in the office. I was glad to finally have the opportunity to re-pay his continued kindness. LASTLY there is a 1997 Yankee card that a SubTalker promised me, months went by, I followed up, then gave up, then there he was at a Swap Show with the card for me. These things have given me great pleasure out of this hobby.
Locat: Soldiers & Sailors Club 283 Lex. Ave. (at 36/37th), $2 @ door
Mr t__:^)
Went to City Search thinking I could get a new set of Emigrant MCs, I have the May 1998 (very nice), well they have several special ones, but NOT Emigrant.
They have Earth Day; US Open (4); Mets (4) & I think Uniqueness of Subways (tracks).
BTW, I have two of the US Open MCs but don't know the players that well, e.g since '99, since '97, etc. So can someone please tell me name vs. year ?
Mr t__:^)
I likely know less than you do about the players, but this is what I've come up with based on the two that I bought via City Search
Martina Hingus [$17 7 day] - Femme Fatale Since 99
Lindsey Davenport [$15] - Standing Tall Since 97
Michael Chang - Relentless Since 90
Patrick Rafter - Gladiator Since 94
Also, I've only found one Emigrant card at the MVMs thus far..."Puerto Rican Day Parade Beauty Queen NYC, about 1963"
09/05/2000
[Also, I've only found one Emigrant card at the MVMs thus far..."Puerto Rican Day Parade Beauty Queen NYC, about 1963"]
Be aware that an Italian (bocci game) and Chinese card is also out there. Both I were told were at one of the MVM's at Penn Station (IRT side).
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the reply ... and nice photos they are too !
Mr t__:^)
With the imminent end of summer in a few weeks, can anyone rate the system car by car... R32, R40 etc. and give a grade for air conditioning?
I was on an R44 on which there was barely any air at all, and then I got a R40 (slant nose) that was an icebox...what a difference!
Why the difference in ac maintenance? Is one shop better than another?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thermostat settings,coil cleanliness,refrigerant leakage and purity -- there are many factors which affect a system's effectiveness.
With the imminent end of summer in a few weeks, can anyone rate the system car by car... R32, R40 etc. and give a grade for air conditioning?
Best = R32, a slight edge over the R38 and R40.
Worst = tossup between R44 and R46.
Most of the other car types are about the same.
All 60' cars have (2) 9 ton units per car. One ton = 12,000 BTU
All 75' cars have (2) 10 ton units per car.
All 50' cars have (1) 12 ton unit per car.
There are differences in the equipment and there are differences in the skill levels at various shops. In general, Stone Safety equipment seems to be more reliable than the thhermoking and easier to maintain.
It seems R40s,42's,and R32's have the best A/C. Some of the worst can be found on the Redbirds used on the 7 line.
R46's also have pretty good A/C, as well as Hippos.
>>>R46's also have pretty good A/C, as well as Hippos<<<
as long as you sit under the lineal difusers
Peace,
ANDEE
The ends of the 75 footers may be a tad warm, but I still hate the A/C on Redbirds. Those circular diffusers are horrible.
Worst: Redbirds
Best: R40/CI overhauled R42's, Pitkin assigned R32's
Middle of the pack: R44/46/62/68/38/Jamaica R32's
Correction, I meant to include the MK overhauled R42's as the best AC'ed. The CI cars are some of the worst. Summer is the only time I go out of my way to sit in an R40M car on a J train.
Just out of curiosity, what was the criteria you used to make your evaluation?
Extensive riding of each car class oer several summers. Not scientific, but it gives me a pretty good idea.
The trouble is it's only a perception. The only true test is to see how close to the design criteria the system is operating. Anything else is meaningless. For example, I like a car to feel like a refrigerator. I'm sure that not everyone would like that. Hence, if a car was 65 degrees, I might like it but the HVAC should cut off below 72 degrees. Others may complain that 65 degrees is far too uncomfortable.
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
Yep the Slants I rode today (and it looked like an all-Slant saturday out there) on the "L" were STONE COLD, but they drip like crazy inside, making the floor rather slippery.
We had some bum on the third "L" we rode today - he was sprawled out on a seat in car #4411 and then he had the unmitigated gall to light up a CIGARETTE as we left Wilson Avenue. And the bastard wouldn't put it out! We read him the riot act and we notified the cops at Bway Jct
wayne (SMOKE FREE FOR SIX MONTHS TO-DAY!)
When I was on a Flushing bound 7 train just after Queensboro plaza this evening, i smelt smoke from a pipe (I was at the window). So I peered into the cab through a little hole, and I saw the T/O smoking tobacco in a pipe!!
Knucklehead!
Some people think that "No Smoking" means "NO SMOKING CIGARETTES": It means no smoking ANYTHING: that means Cigarettes, Cigars, Tiparilloes, Papirosi, Pipes, Hookahs, Banana peels, grass clippings, marijuana, hashish or anything else for that matter!
I am so glad that I don't have to smoke, just for today.
wayne
I might add that the cops told us that they'd take the person off the train at the next stop.
I remind all:
1- No open alcholic beverages in the subway--beer, ale, wine, whatever- anything booze is no! Someone made the m,istake of drinking booze Tuesday night on a train I was on. I found the cops who were one car back and the person now has a rememberence!
2- NO smoking anywhere on the subway- this includes open air (el,open cut, surface running)platforms. I have had people removed for doing this. I know some employees( not me) smoke in the system but ther are disobeying the rules and even employees can get a summons from the Police. Smoking in the booth is also strictly prohibited (but unfortunately it is being done).
Police often ride the trains- either in uniform or in plain clothes, and they also stand on platforms. It is very easy for anyone to find an officer who will be glad to give an "easy ticket".
Also many a times I board a city bus and it smells like smoke. I've seen alot of drivers smoking on their breaks in buses.
Stengal seems to have this problem pretty bad.
With the imminent end of summer in a few weeks, can anyone rate the system car by car... R32, R40 etc. and give a grade for air conditioning?
I was on an R44 on which there was barely any air at all, and then I got a R40 (slant nose) that was an icebox...what a difference!
Why the difference in ac maintenance? Is one shop better than another...?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The modified R40s are good. The Coney Island R42 is terrible. Those are numbered 4840-4949 for those who don't know.
No R42s are assigned to Coney Island. All of them stored there are from East New York Yard. The R42s there are for M Train Service. Those cars there are different everyday.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
My good friend operates the R. He says the R32's are sometimes put on the F, especially during rush hours because believe it or not, I hear 10 60 foot R32s are longer than 10 75 foot R46's. I heard its once a blue moon, but u know the Subway always got Drama, so I wouldn't be surprised if I saw one. but next time, I had better have my Camera ready. Just like when I go R142 hunting.
Get this! The only shots of the R142 I have is at Pelham Parkway when they were being tested! I gotta get me some shots of those bad boys.
Ironically they are on my best 2 Favorite lines the 2 for its speed, and the 6 for its General areas it goes thru.
BY THE WAY, CAN U GUYS KEEP ME UPDATED ON WHEN THE R142A IS RUNNING AGAIN? I WANNA GET SOME GOOD SHOTS, ALSO, CAN U TELL ME WHEN AND IF THE R110B EVER RUNS AGAIN??
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
F TRAIN#5874 R46
2 TRAIN#8841 REDBIRD
[My good friend operates the R. He says the R32's are sometimes put on the F, especially during rush
hours because believe it or not, I hear 10 60 foot R32s are longer than 10 75 foot R46's.]
With the 75 footers the TA does not operate them in 10 car trains(R-44,46,68,68A). Eight of them makes a full train which is the same 600 feet as 10 60 foot cars.
Wayne
With the 75 footers the TA does not operate them in 10 car trains(R-44,46,68,68A). Eight of them makes a full train which is the same 600 feet as 10 60 foot cars.
Using the 10 60-footers will give you more doors, the better to handle big crowds.
Of course but there is more wasted space with the couplers. I realized this when someone bought this up the other day.
That's the...
running on...
's
comments.
I'll give you the exact dimensions.
R-32 = 60' 2 1/2" over the couplers so 10 car train = 601' 9"
R-46 = 74' 8 1/2" over the couplers so an 8 car train = 597' 7"
So in actuality, the motorman was correct.
As is oftebn stated here the 75 foot cars are a problem is reduced number of doors per train.
Question: I know there'd be a gap problem but here goes anyway: Could 12 IRT cars be used instead of 8 cars each 75 ft long?(yes- we could have an extension jamb on the outside of the cars to reduce the gap.)
Would it be simpler to have one width of cars and fewer parts to stock?(Yes- I know we have other cars and they'd have to serve out their life span).
Of course you'd have the best fleet--whatever size cars they give you!
The TA is roughly 12 trains short for full service through the 63rd st. connection. Fortunately the R-143s will be on line long before that happens thanks to the Manhattan bridge situation. However, I did suggest that the redbirds be used with extensions welded to the threshhold plates, widening them to B division standards. Not a smile in the room!!!!! As the old cash registers used to say, "NO SALE".
Or as they do on quiz shows, BUZZZZZZZZZ!!!
Regardless of the humor or historical precedent, it would be nothing less than an open invitation to the subway surfer morons.
The R142A should be out next week they had to rewire all the doors do to on going door problems.
Does that include the flock of R142A's which are sitting up at Unionport Yard?
The R142 was a nice ride, nice and peppy down the Broadway express, and the wheels sound almost EXACTLY like the R16's whose numbers they wear. In fact, from Chambers to Park to Fulton and also from Clark to Nevins, if I'd closed my eyes and just listened to the "moosic", I could have easily imagined myself in the OTHER #6304 or #6305. I also rode in #6301, #6307, and #6310. Not bad at all.
wayne
I wouldn't no if the defect effected the whole fleet. I will have to ask someone from Kawaski about that when I go back this week.
members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html
History of subway system from perspective of the routes (as we refer to them today). See what ran where way back when. Also covers unused letters and numbers!
Just wanted to note that there is a Burro Crane (it may be called something else, but that's what a TA worker-friend called it) on the SBK scrap track by the Fort Hamilton & 38th Street end of the TA yard behind Jackie Gleason Depot.
The unit is minus the huge crane structure. It looks to be in otherwise working shape, with the cab and undersidings appearing to be intact. This was a non-powered crane, so it would have been attached to a work motor while in service.
It looks like it might date back to the BRT days where it's bulky crane would have been used almost exclusively on EL structures, cuts or other rapid transit operations with the exception of subway work where it would have been too large to operate.
There was a huge, brass builders plate on the side. This much was made out:
'Build by the Brown Machinery Co., Cleveland, Ohio USA'.
There was no date of the building on the plate (unless it faded over the years).
Can anyone help with details on this unit?
Doug aka BMTman
Did you get a picture?
On a hunch I went through some ERA documents on the South Brooklyn Railway and found the description of two pieces of equipment that relate to the car I saw at 38th Street. They are IDed as Derrick Cars #9006 and 9007 which were built by the Brown Hoist Co. (9006 in 1910; 07 in 1913).
There was no marking that indicated which unit it was, but the car must've had a long life with NYCT for them to just now be discarding it.
BTW, the Derrick Car is in MOW yellow with the 70's 'M' logo on the cab sides.
Doug aka BMTman
On a hunch I went through some ERA documents on the South Brooklyn Railway and found the description of two pieces of equipment that relate to the car I saw at 38th Street. They are IDed as Derrick Cars #9006 and 9007 which were built by the Brown Hoist Co. (9006 in 1910; 07 in 1913).
There was no marking that indicated which unit it was, but the car must've had a long life with NYCT for them to just now be discarding it.
To put things in perspectively, consider three things:
1) The BMT Standards were one of the longest-lived car classes.
2) Even so, the Standards have been gone for over thirty years.
3) This crane, just now being withdrawn from service, was around before the Standards!
The Brown Hoist crane was actually used in service until 1986, when it was withdrawn due to some sort of accident. It originally had a trolley pole, but it was modified to run off a long jumper cable along the track where its been sitting for the last 24 years.
Someone took apart the controller, and removed the boom, which is lying next to it. If you look closely, the turret is cocked at a bad angle, which is probably why it wont run, aside from the missing controller parts. I would venture a guess that the main drive shaft is bent, and thats why it cant be moved. I think a fellow with the initials of M.H. knows all about it.
The builders plate says it was built in 1910.
Oh you mean him? Well then, that's a piece of equipment that's not going to waste....
-Stef
Stef, it sure will. What the heck is anybody going to do with a nearly 100 year-old, non-motorized crane, without a working boom?
It would best become a static display, elsewhile it's part could be caniballized to benefit the needs of equipment from a similar time period in a museum collection.
Doug aka BMTman
Seriously? That Brownhoist crane is still on transit property?
I thought it was gone years ago. The two DifCo cranes didn't
last that long and they are much better units.
Oh yes, its still rusting in the same spot.
That sounds like the electric crane the TMNY is supposed to be taking delivery later this year. The boom assembly is still inside the yard. I'll forward this post to see if I can confirm.
It isn't a Burro crane. Burros have the word "Burro" cast into the counterweight along with "Built by the Cullen-Freistedt Co. Chicago"
Right. But my TA friend claims the MOW guys just call it a 'Burro Crane' as a nickname.
I ended up identifing the crane earlier this morning as an old South Brooklyn Derrick Car dating back to 1910 or 1913. There are two units that were built and the one I saw did not have a car ID number to confirm which one it is.
Hopefully, someone here at SubTalk can help me out.
Doug aka BMTman
Hello Everyone,
I am pleased to announce that Saturday, September 16, 2000 is the tentative date I have for the tour. Before it is finalized, I want bring the following to your attention. There are two shows that day, Liberty State Park and Hoboken. I believe that the Transit Museum is also holding the BusFest that day.
Now here is the problem, If I ask for a different date, I am told that the next available day is in late October. What I ask is that those who are interested in going mail me at: DTYPE6112@WEBTV.NET And tell me if 9/16 is good or to wait until October. I will post a decision in a few days after I see the general feeling of those involved.
Thanks,
-Mark W.
Since you have Hoboken, Liberty State Park AND Bus Fest all in that same weekend, it might more sense to hold it another weekend where there aren't as many potential conflicts or choices....Just my opinion...
October is the way better move, then we can say we had three action packed months:
August: Redbird Trip
September: NYCMTA Bus Fest, NJT Try Transit Fest, and Liberty State Park
October: Coney Island Tour
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
09/02/2000
I must agree with Trevor and Lou. With the weekend of the 16th booked up, why not forestall it until October. The temperatures will be cooler also. So I say October for the tour.
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree with the crowd. October seems like a better date.
That's the...
running on...
's
two cents.
i think you should have the open house on the same day as the other 3 events... lately, i have been pretty depressed and don't have the energy to do anything... i think it would be easier if on one day i could miss 4 separate events and have it over with on one day , rather than to spread the disappointment over several different days...
Aye.
...Agreeing with heypaul
That's more scary then funny ... please tell us you were trying to be funny !
BTW, I vote for October too.
Mr t__:^)
thurston... yeah i was mostly trying to be funny... thanks for caring...
The tour will NOT be held on 9/16.
A new date will be announced in the next week or two.
-Mark
Sat Oct 21 is not good because of the ERA trip.
You the man.
I think a better date would be Saturday, September 14, 2002, when my plate will not be as full.
Mark, please try and re-schedule for the two years, when I'll be ready.
Doug aka BMTman
...signed a 2 year deal
with the Yawnkees, Doug?
As of Sept 1 the R142A hit the road again. I had the train for 3 Trips and the train ran great. I Normally don't get the train on the last trip but the T/O who takes the 2:52 was off and the T/o assigned to the job was not R142 Qualified.
I been running the R142A so long its no longer in my eyes a new train.
There are thing I like about operating the R142A.
1. It is alittle faster then some of the other current trains out there and better braking.
2. The cars have great A/C it nice to have a cool operating car then a hot redbird. The only good thing about hot cars is they keep the trouble makers out.
3. The computer tells me where I'm at and the car Nos. on the train.
4. If there are any problems the computer will give you the affected car. That will speed up delays.
This train can help the crew or hurt you.
If the train hit a red or overshots a station that is recorded in the black box. The the T/O puts the train in Emergency its recorded.
This train is also designed for one Person Operation and NO Person Operation.
dave... how are you doing?....what do you mean by no person operation?? do you mean what the cars have been doing for the last week or so--- carrying no people?
When I say No Man that means No T/O or C/R. The train can be activated to run by its self. The RCI said they just need to put the Wire in.
dave... do you have any nightmares of the computer saying to you: "dave, please step out onto the platform for a moment" and then the train drives off...
what did the rci mean when he said they just need to put the wire in to have the train operate by itself? wouldn't they have to rebuild the whole signal system to accomplish this?
assuming they did this, how would an automatic train operation detect debris on the track, workers on the track, etc...
The computer would recognize that the wheels were no longer contacting the rails, would cue the announcement that passengers who were able to move should exit the train, and would change the destination sign to "shop".
"The computer would recognize that the wheels were no longer contacting the rails, would cue the announcement that passengers who were able to move should exit the train, and would change the destination sign to "shop"."
hey... that made me laugh harder than my own posts... good show...
Yes they do need to redo the signals. However on the No.6 Line the work is half done. The Bronx side is ready from 3AV- 138 St to Pelham Bay Park. They did build a New Tower which is Westchester Master Tower born in 1998. Also has New Signal Syserm and switches. I did get a tour of the Master Tower and I have to say its nice. Its like a Mini Control Center. If a train hit any signal an alarm will sound. It can even tell how fast a train is going over a switch. It may even be more Modern then the current Control Center. The Communication between the Train Crew and the Master tower is very good. You can hear the master tower better then Control Center. The Tower did replace 4 Towers which where Pelham Bay,Westchester's old tower, Parkchester, and Hunts Point towers.
How would the train Detect Debris and other Workers?
I don't have a complete answer but I think there will be someone on the train but will be there just to stop the train in case anything like what you said happens. It will be like the T/O just being a train Babysitter. So T/O's would not have to worry about losing there postions but none or the less it takes the fun out of the job. Think about all the new timers that been put up to control the trains speed.
I don't like any of this but thats the way Transit is shaping up and with new Technology it will happen.
The next big master tower will be E 180 St. That will control everything from Jackson on up.
This system aka CTC? Of course it isn't that new. IIRC the whole 7 line was controlled from one place..or the whole Queens portion was. City Hall BMT, Essex BMT, the IRT Broadway going back to my NYCT days 23 years and more ago. Didn't 96 St control the entire upper Broadway? or was it Times Sq. Its been a long time. Of course nothing as sophisticated as you described.
On the big roads they've controlled hundreds of miles of line from one location, for example all of Montana Rail Link controlled from Missoula. Of course there are probably more powered switches on one long subway route as there are on all of MRL.But essentially it is a Centralized Traffic Control.
Do I have Nightmare Not Really but it almost happened at Pelham for Real the train was charged up and ready to go but the Problem was no one was in the operating cab. A T.S.S was the one who reported that.
Sounds like a flashback of almost 40 years. The automated 42 Street shuttle train.
09/02/2000
[This train is also designed for one Person Operation and NO Person Operation]
P.B.Dave,
Well, ONE person operation is OPTO as we know it. But NO person operation, isn't that the same as ATO? That means NOBODY is operating it! Please explain.
Bill "Newkirk"
Exactly. How hard is that to understand?
09/02/2000
I do understand, however, if Pelham Dave states that the R-142's are capable of NO PERSON operation (ATO) that's a new one on me. I thought that ATO was a thing of the past that never really got off the ground with the R-44/46's (pre-GOH).
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, I doubt it can run using the current system, it would need an extensive new signal installation, the kind that the Second Avenue Subway was supposed to have. I wonder what happened to that?
The R-142/143 are supposed to revive the continuing degree of technological advancement that the R-44/46 failed at providing.
I think you answered you own question.
When the small black wall signs at Canal St station had Chinese
characters under them (just one set of characters) did the characters
say "Chinatown" or the phonetic characters for "Canal St."?
These have been replaced by mosaics now. I want info, a picture,
or a sign. Any or all would be appreciated!
Thanks!
In the following format...
Canal Street <3 Characters><2 characters>
The 3 characters mean chinatown. It is pronounced "Tong Yun Guy"
The other 2, I have no clue.
That's the...
running on...
's
help.
The other two is pronounced "Wa Foul"
The exact meaning I am uncertain. Perhaps someone (Chao-Hwa?) can fill me in.
Nick
In mandarin Chinese, it is pronounced "Hua Pu", which means "Chinatown".
Chaohwa
Great info, guys! But on the smaller signs that USED to be up, there
was only one set of characters. Did they say "Chinatown?" I was
told that the second set of characters at the platform for the J,M,
Z trains is a "sound alike" for Canal St. sort-of?!
But I need to know about the smaller signs that they took down.
It probably said "Chinatown", right?
Thank you so much!
That's right. The three characters in the J/M/Z platform are pronounced "Jian Ni Jie," which is the Cantonese translation of Canal Street.
This is my guess. What you want is the two Chinese characters called "Hua Pu," another description of Chinatown. Usually we Chinese call Chinatown "Chung Guo Cheng."
Chaohwa
Mr. Chen, Do you remember the old signs they took down with the
single set of characters? I am trying to re-create those signs. I picture those characters UNDERNEATH
the English "Canal St" and only 3 characters. Were those 3 the ones
that mean "Chinatown?" Just trying to be certain. I don't want to
get it wrong, and have chosen the wrong set of characters, making
my recreation inaccurate!
Anyone?
Sorry, I was not back to the U.S. until 1992, so I may not know the old sign you are looking for.
However, could you give me the impression of the first of the three characters? Is the first character of the sign very simple to you, like a cup-like character pierced by a pencil?
If so, the three words are indeed "Chinatown," if not, the three words are "Jian Ni Jie," the Cantonese translation of "Canal Street."
Chaohwa
Mr. Chen,
Unfortunately, I cannot remember exactly what the Chinese characters looked like. They were on the walls until 1998 or 1999
when they began to re-do the Canal St. Station. Now the only Chinese
characters I can find on a black sign are at the J,M,Z platform where
both sets of characters are used. Do you remember when all of the
signs on the walls of the station had ONE set of characters underneath? I had always thought it said "Canal St" in Chinese.
But I don't read or speak the language (though my grandfather did!)
I now think it may have said "Chinatown."
Anyone??
Based on what you said, I am sure that the three words are the Cantonese translation of "Canal Street."
I remembered that when I walked through the unused Broadway Express platform last year, the Chinese characters are "Jian Ni Jie."
Chaohwa
Dear Chaohwa,
I am still a little bit nervous. Are you completely sure? This
is very important. I hope that my saying "I always thought it said
'Canal St' in Chinese characters" did not steer you wrong. Because
it was just a guess. When someone else mentioned "Chinatown" that
made sense too! Sorry to be such a bother, but I've looked everywhere
I can think of including the Transit Museum for this info.
If you remember seeing those black signs, and are sure it didn't
say "Chinatown" that is what I've been looking for confirmation about.
Then I could get a photo of the characters from the sign on the J,M,Z
platform and eliminate the second set which say "Chinatown?"
Yes, I did see the black sign with "Canal Street" Chinese characters only on the J/M/Z platform and the Broadway Express platform.
The format is like this:
Canal Street (Chinese characters in Canal Street [Jian Ni Jie] from left to right)
No Chinatown characters [Hua Pu] in the above sign.
Before the platform renovations on the Broadway Local line, the black sign was like this:
Canal Street (Chinese characters in Canal Street [Jian Ni Jie] from left to right) (Chinese characters in Chinatown [Hua Pu] from up to down)
Chaohwa
Mr. Chen,
Thank you very much for your exacting response!
Subway grrl
As I already replied to your questions twice.
The old sign on the Bway local and express platoform only
had the two-charactered "Hua Pu" meaning "China Town"
No no no.....
In mandarin Chinese, the first three Chinese characters are pronounced "Jian Ni Jie," which is the Cantonese translation of Canal Street. Cantonese is one of the Chinese dialects.
The next two Chinese characters are called "Hua Pu," which are another description of Chinatown. Usually we call Chinatown in mandarin Chinese "Chung Guo Cheng."
Chaohwa
Last nignt I rode the BLUE LINE here in los angeles took "nightshot"
experemental prototype shots with my new sony cybershot dsc s30
piced up a interesting flyer with photos etc & a nice motorman operator!
{M metro rail 10 years moving LA}.signs posted on all BLUE LINE rail cars. I remember riding the BLUE LINE here
on the first free ride runs aprox 10 years ago, 1990-91 all of the photos are here on..
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
In my opinion & the opinion of many the BLUE LINE got it right was built in the right place ( not like the RED & GREEN lines ) why the "green" refuses to go to the airport LAX ( check out my photos ) &
more to come! So anyway just to let you know the re - introduction
of a weak attempt ot restore the PE system we never should have lost
is now 10 years old ....Wooopeee.!!! ...( what do you think senior? )
yes no ??......
I just popped in a cassette of "North by NorthWest". The opening scenes show various views of New York City around 1959. It is amazing to see what a colorful city it was back then and how much we've given up for the sake of conformity, uniformity and merger. Busses and cabs were most notably multi-colored affairs in bright reds, yellows, greens and beige. Not a blue and white bus or a solid yellow cab among them. What a shame - it's too bad we've become so conformity minded.
steve... i am elated... you appreciate what my mission here at subtalk was... eliminate uniformity and introduce eccentricity.....
Actually, I'd be happy if the TLC would go back to the period where taxis did not have to be all yellow or livery cabs didn't have to be all black. I'd suggest that the NYCT stop painting their busses blue & white but they'd likely screw it up and make things more drab. If that is excentricity, then perhaps we've found our common ground. You think????
"You think????"... steve, do my posts reflect much in the way of thought?
hey, what's with the 4????...
seriously, i would agree that variety adds a lot to the passing scene... one of the queens bus companies, i think triboro, has a real spiffy looking paint scheme... i was down by greyhound and some of the buses have some really colorful bus wraps which catch the eye... i guess you remember in the 50's when the taxi cabs were two toned, and in fact many cars were too...
if i wasn't so self conscious, i think i might just go down to the village tomorrow and have my hair dyed purple...
"You think", meaning do you think we've found an area of common ground - not, "Do you think". Sorry that it didn't come across more clearly.
Even triboro's brown & white scheme isn't what I meant. See if you can catch the opening scenes of the movie, - up to where Cary Grant goes into the Plaza Hotel and you'll see how colorful NY once was.
[if i wasn't so self conscious, i think i might just go down to the village tomorrow and have my hair dyed purple... ]
...and hop on the 7 train to Shea when the Atlanta Braves are in town, lean over the dugout, and ask John Rocker if he knows anybody in Hotlanta who has a MARTA cab mock-up in his spare room. :o)
Steve, it ain't even paint. NYBus paints the bus white (may add black window area) and then applys a blue Mylar stripe to the bus. Our MTA in Baltimore does the same thing. It's cheap, and if you leave out the masking for the black window mask, there's no masking to do at all.
When the MTA here rebuilt the body on our (BSM) PCC, 7407, the paint shop did the body in Imron in the correct colors (we supplied the color numbers so they could order the correct colors), and the car was a 3 mask job. 1.) Paint roof tan, mask. 2.) paint window area cream, mask. 3.) paint body color, Alexandria Blue (Looks like green, cars were referred to as "Green cars") 4.) mask body and window colors for belt rail stripe, paint Orange. 5.) Mask roof and window colors, paint 1/2" green stripe to divide roof and window.
That's a FIVE mask job and the paint shop loved doing it. After painting buses white with a black window mask, it was a challenge!!
Well, the guy at the hobby shop in Bismarck keeps picking on me for the same thing, I will only buy BROWN box cars for my model railroad, and all of my passenger cars are BROWN with orange fronts. All of the Locos are also BROWN with orange fronts ala the old LIRR except brown car bodies insted of gray.
For a model it just makes more sense (according to me) this way your eye does not rest on some outlandish car, but rides back and forth on the whole train, which seems to me to make it look longer.
Elias
Not to mention that North By Northwest is one of Hitchcock's best and one of Cary Grant's best roles; ditto for Charade which has some Paris Metro scenes BTW.
For the railfan there are a few neat scenes on the NYCentral going up the Hudson, and GCT.
As for drabness and what cars looked like back then w're sure in a land of look alike autos, with a few exceptions, has been that way for most of ten years.
09/02/2000
R-68 #2726
I rode in this car on the (D) today and noticed something unusual. I noticed that both side roll sign boxes had different covers. The ones on all the R-68's are a little past flush with the fiberglass window bezel, beveled edges also. The ones in this car was recessed about a 1/2 an inch from the surface. There was screws every few inches showing how it was fastened to the bexel and painted the same tan color as the R-40/42's etc. Both signs had the larger type letters and numbers like the R-68A's. The other 3 cars in the trainset didn't follow suit and were like the usual R-68's. Does anyone know anything about #2726 and this type of sign box modification ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I've seen it before. There are 6 kinds of rollboxes on the R68s.
1) Standard R68 rollbox.
2) Standard R68 rollbox with the upgraded signs.
3) R68A rollbox installed correctly painted TA yellow.
4) R68A rollbox installed backwards.
5) Standard R68 rollsigns with a sheet of steel covering it.
6) No rollsign at all.
That's the...
running on...
's
answer.
I think that car had been damaged early on, (or I may be thinking about 2755) and I guess it got a new sign box similar to the R-68A, and it was crudely painted.
That was 2755, 2579, 2805, and 2807 that were ever damaged.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
corrections.
2726 also has a couple of strange numberboards. That car was a north motor on a N train some years back one day. Remember when they had the continuous welded rail (CWR) plant at Fort Hamilton Pkwy on the N line? One day, the crane somehow got into the path of and struck 2726. The crane operator was thrown out of his seat and eventually died from his injuries. After that, no more CWR plant at that location.
09/03/2000
Bill Maspeth,
Was #2726 out of service for any period of time? Maybe the original sign boxes were cannibalized?
Bill "Newkirk"
It was out of serviced for quite some time. There was major body damage, lot of sheet metal work was needed. As for the numberboards, perhaps one was destroyed, the other one could be in someones' collection!
where was the CWR plant and are there any signs of it being there?
I said it in my original post: Ft. Hamilton Pkwy N line, north end of the station what would be the Manhattan bound express track. There is no sign of it anymore. Welded rail is now being done at Linden Yard, inaccessable to the public.
The only car that I've seen that ever had strange number boards was 2755.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
2 cents.
And that's only on ONE side of the car, that being the side that was damaged in the collison with the flat-car. They replaced the laminated plaque with the stick-on numbers they use on the older cars.
I have heard that someone thought #2755 was a total wreck and took the plate before the repair was made. There was quite a gash in #2755's side, right about at the beltline and running parallel to the ground.
wayne
On my trip to Garden State Plaza (via N21,7train, and NJT#163)I went through Flushing. The Willets Point station was much busier than normal, but most people coming by transit took the 7 from Manhattan directions. In the morning, Queens bound 7 trains were pretty crowded. In the evening, it was Manhattan bound 7 trains that were crowded, I could see some door holding delaying trains out of Willets.
While it was very busy in and around Flushing-Meadows Park, it appears most people still came by car, as there was much more people on the ramps going to the parking lots, than to the subway station.
There was much more traffic in and around Flushing, however, especially in evening, there weren't that many people walking around.
It appears downtown Flushing benefits little from baseball and tennis events nearby.
Most people just drive through, probably because Flushing's negative stigma (easily visible) deters outsiders. Wendy's will probably never re-open, even though I did put up a short letter to urge people to get it to re-open.
It's really a pain in the you-know-what that Wendy's is closed. When I come off the 7 train I'm hot and I want a Frosty and some water (tap).
Believe it or not, no place in Flushing gives you water for free. McDonald's now charges $1.40 for a small container of bottled water! I really told them off when they pulled that on me!
I mean it's so inconvenient, I have to go out of my way for Wendy's (to Pathmark shopping center or Bayside).
I hate McDonald's, I WANT WENDY'S TO RE-OPEN! I put in my short note:
"Please re-open this Wendy's. This has gone on for too long. You're needed here!"
There's no excuse that there's no Wendy's there. I got one thing to say, FLUSHING SUX!!!
Alright, enough about my ranting. I'll just have to be inconvenienced because people in Flushing don't know how to move on.
Also I saw a 7 train sitting on the middle track just east of Willets point, probably an extra train for U.S. Open. And the 7 trains look like they are back to 11 cars, and the hot car had hardly anyone in it!
GSP mall was nice though, nice mix of people, alot of asians (alot of beautiful girls!), and while it was crowded there was no riff-raff like in Roosevelt Field. When it's too hot in Chinatown for "girl watching" Garden State Plaza is a great alternative!
There's a Wendy's at 94th St. and Northern Blvd. You could take the Q72 from Junction Blvd. station to get there and take the Q66 from there to Main St. That's a more direct route than going to Bayside!
FLUSHING SUX!!!
Then why do you always go there?
Maybe for the Dim Sum.
Aw, c'mon Pigs, did you notice he never once mentioned Sea Cliff in that long letter?
When I come off the 7 train I'm hot and I want a Frosty and some water (tap).
Believe it or not, no place in Flushing gives you water for free. McDonald's now charges $1.40 for a small container of bottled water! I really told them off when they pulled that on me!
That's not really true. You can go inside Stern's, go to where the elevator is, and to the right is a water fountain for free.
Well yes there is the water fountain in Stern's, that is if they are still open by the time I get there. And I still want a Frosty!
When it's too hot in Chinatown for "girl watching" Garden State Plaza is a great alternative!
I must say, I've never heard Chinatown mentioned as a place for girl watching ...
I guess not many men see the beauty of Chinese and Asian women.
For me, they seem to put a big, big spell on me.
And they also tend to date shorter men(like me), unlike most American women which have height complexes.
The women in Chinatown (and sometimes Flushing) are both beautiful on the inside and out, unlike most American women.
But that's enough, this is way off topic...
Most subtalkers remember the incredibly wordy exterior subway signs that showed every possible potential connection you could make from the particular station they were placed at. Typically they were blue and white, or green and white, and mounted on the railing opposite the staircase. I have a picture or two on the subways category in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Anyway I viewed Tina Turner's video "What's Love Got To Do With It", which was shot in NYC, for the first time in memory recently. She passes a station with one of the signs.
What year did all of them come down, to be replaced by the bland black and whites?
When the 60st tubes get closed, why do they insist on not running trains to Queens at all? This overcrowds the E, F, and 7. I propose 2 alternatives:
Plan 1
N1 - Coney Island to 21st Queensbridge
N2 - Astoria to Queensboro Plaza
Sections are Connected by Shuttle Bus
R - 95st Bklyn to 71st/Continental, via Manny B and 6 ave
Plan 2
Same as plan 1, except R's northern terminal is also Queensbridge, and the shuttle bus will have an additional stop at Queens Plaza. The G will be extended to 71/Continental to pick up the R passengers.
Why are the 60th street tubes being closed? Last time I was down there all looked fine from the front window.
Maybe they're putting in more grade timers or wheel-detectors!
(just kidding). Seriously, don't know why the G.O. I can check with my G.O. source and find out.
wayne
Perhaps it is a switch replacement. Trains seem to be a little slower lately at the switch just before the east portal, where R diverges from N.
[Maybe they're putting in more grade timers or wheel-detectors! ]
Please, noooooo! Flying thru there on a non-rush-hour R32 or an R68 is one of the best rides in the system! :o)
If the 63rd street tunnel is open to two way service by then.
That's the...
running on...
or
answers.
That's true! It's actually supposed to open for reroutes very soon! This month or next, in fact.
I doubt about next month. Before it can open, new signals between 23/Ely & 36th St. must be cut in as well as interlocking controls to QueensBoro Master Tower. This will mean additional weekend service shutdowns on the E/F from Queens Plaza to across 53rd St. With the upcoming weekend service interruptions on the N & R in the 60th St. tube, both routes can't be closed at the same time.
...both routes can't be closed at the same time...
Yes they can, my favorite GO of all time was:
E - Jamaica CTR - Roosevelt Ave, Express
F - 2 sections: 179st - Roosevelt Ave, Local, 42nd/6th - Coney Island
R - 59st Bklyn - 95st Bklyn
No service at all between Roosevelt Ave and Manhattan, Lexington/60th. I believe the reason for this was extensive signal work around Queens Plaza. This was in Summer of '98.
What was the N doing that day?
Right, I forgot:
R - Astoria to 95st Bklyn
N - Astoria to Coney Island
Ah well, I guess they can't close both tubes simultaneously after all.
You know, my problem with Slick Willie wasn't that he got a blow job. My problem was that Clinton and his party in 1993 pushed through the largest tax hikes in the history of the federal government. And to add insult to injury for the first time in American history a tax hike was retroactive.
The firing of the travel office staff who were civil servants (some there for decades) and not political appointees so Hillary could bring in her cronies from Arkansas. The suspicious death of Vince Foster, Clinton's lawyer. Unauthorized possession by a Clinton staffer of FBI personnel files. The Whitewater land deal. Hillary's amazing transformation of a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit (nice trick!) Nuclear secrets "allowed" to be passed on to China in exchange for campaign contributions for the 1996 elections.
And last but most important: the reason why Bill Clinton is loosing his lawyer's license and why he was impeached by congress. He PERJURED himself in a legal proceeding. Sure politicians lie. They all do. But at least most of them won't do it under oath!
Sure George Washington had some trysts. Thomas Jefferson slept with his slaves. Hell; he OWNED slaves. Benjamin Franklin liked to hang around naked and Alexander Hamilton was killed in a childish pistol duel with Aaron Burr. But whatever their personal faults were, the founding fathers cannot ever be compared with the Clintons.
These people were the creative genius behind the
greatest social experiment in history to succeed. Up to that point in time democracy hadn't been tried in millenia, and then not in the scope we enjoy here. They framed the constitution, a unique and incredibly dynamic document with amazing ideas for the time: all men are created equal. The founding fathers suffered for their vision. The British pursued these men and imprisoned many. Some lost their fortunes and died penniless. In almost every case they gave far more to the new America than they received. Truly selfless acts.
Compare this with a lying pair of con artists whose sole purpose in seeking political office is to gain power and personal wealth. Truly selfish acts.
No brainier. If the first congress were still in session, Bill Clinton would have been impeached and in jail. And NOT for a blow job.
09/03/2000
Yes your rant was waaay off topic.......but I can't help but agree with you.
Bill "Newkirk"
1) I prefer Presidents who lie and are sneaky. They get more done and are more effective on the international scene (remember the "moralistic" Jimmy Carter disaster)
2) What I can't stand in politicions are people who lie by telling the "truth". In terms of total dollars I'm sure it was the largest tax hike. But there's something called inflation and there are different kinds of taxes. Unless you can tell me that it was the largest % increase for the MAJORITY of WORKING americans you can take your little statement and stick it up your ass because I hate it when people misrepresent facts to get other people to believe that they were "harmed" and then to pursuade them to march happily down the road to disaster. Its a trick right out of the Ioesheph Stalin playbook. Hey, why don't you try to start a panic by telling people that the government set a record in spending last year too.
3) The information was illegagly obtained they had not right to a truthful answer. Legal or not, that's how I see it. You can't make up a lawsuit (the case was dismissed) just to interview someone about their private life under oath. Its plain wrong.
Plain and simple, good guys finish last. Cheaters always win and winners always cheat. No matter who the president is, I want a winner.
BTW I love the look on a tax-cut nut's face when I tell them how my $80 state income tax cut cost my family about $1000 in property taxes due to decreased state local spending. The cut shifted the tax from those who could pay to those who couldn't pay. I lost several friends when they had to move away due to high property taxes. I didn't find a new freind in my rebate cheque.
To me Morality and ethics are very important in a president. You call Jimmy Carter's presidency a fiasco however I'll take Carter over Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, and Clinton ANY day!!!
He was pure evill. He gave back the canal and forgot that the Shaw was on our side. It took fiasco like Carter to let the republicans recover from Nixon. That's how bad he was. Imagine if we still had a puppet govermnemt in Iran this current gas crunch would be non-existant.
But Carter was a HUMAN BEING first. Most Presidents don't have an ounce of humanity in them. IMHO, Jimmy Carter is one of the most under-rated Presidents in recent memory.
Doug aka BMTman
IMHO, Jimmy Carter is one of the most under-rated Presidents in recent memory.
And in my humble opinion,it is well deserved. While I think his work with Habitat For Humanity is commendable, he was the weakest president of the 20th Century (including Eisenhower).
Jimmy Carter shares with Herbert Hoover as a President who accomplished much more after he left office.
Lets face it. The road to the Presidency is so long, so expensive and so arduous that those who who would serve the country with honor and wisdom usually decide that it is not worth the pain.
So whoever we elect is most likely not the best for the country oveall.
IMHO, Jimmy Carter is one of the most under-rated Presidents in recent memory.
And in my humble opinion,it is well deserved. While I think his work with Habitat For Humanity is commendable, he was the weakest president of the 20th Century (including Eisenhower).
Carter also happened to be in office at a very bad time. The country was still suffering from the effects of Watergate and Vietnam, which translated into a general distrust of government and a very weak military.
That's right, Peter. Had he came along at this point in history, I think he'd be seen in a better light -- and may have accomplished quite a bit while in office.
Doug aka BMTman
Back to square one Jimmy Carter was a human being. That was one election I didn't vote for Carter or Ford so had no choice for president. Maybe his honestly [if lacking competence] was his downfall.
As an afterthought on Peter Rosa's post..is there much trust in gvoernment now [depending on who admits their feelings and who doesn't] or is the military very strong after Clinton?
My dim light went off in my head the other day: HAS ANYBODY NOTICED THE MEDIA SAYS NOTHING ABOUT KOSOVO WITH THE UPCOMING ELECTION./ I haven't heard up to this point that our troops are being withdrawn....???? I don't think anybody wants another Vietnam.
Ditto!!!!!
Oh, yes. I'm all for interfering in the politics of sovereign nations. Nothing like proping up a puppet government. Look at all the good it did in Cuba, for both the US (Pre-Castro) and USSR. Oh, let's not forget the Philipines, Vietnam, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslavakia, and Panama.
-Hank
Oh, I left something out:
Ever hear of supply and demand? Go here http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-06-29/News_and_Views/Opinion/a-71563.asp and scoll all the way to the bottom of the page.
-Hank
If someone can lie under oath because he has a good reason than the oath is meaningless and the foundation of our legal system is also meaningless.
I didn't think Bill Clinton should have been impeached (I think he deserved it but the nation didn't, if you can understand that) but he put me in the position of explaining to a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old why he should not be punished for lying before our courts (and before God, if you still take that implication in an oath) but they will be punished for lying about a lot less.
This is part of Bill Clinton's enduring legacy. We were told to look the other way (some of us celebrated looking the other way) because our bellies were full and our pocketbooks were full. What does that make us?
Ok, first of all Clinton didn't lie. He did the "dance". If they had asked, "Did you have oral sex with monica" and if he said no, that would have been a lie and I would probably have a problem with it. But they asked if he had sexual relations and at least in his mind oral sex was not sexual relations. There was a recent incident where some friends of mine had pulled a prank at a camp and the guy asked one of them (who is not going to become a marine) if he did it and he flat out lied and my dad was disapointed. Now my dad went on to say that he should have either come forward or done the "dance", but my friend is not a real fast talker. If you are smart enough to deflect and mislead all the power to you. If your kids don't lie, but defeat you in a game of semantics or question avoidance you should pat them on the back because its a life skill.
But they asked if he had sexual relations and at least in his mind oral sex was not sexual relations.
He might have been just a young-thinking person. From what I've heard, young people today - even those of junior-high age - consider that type of activity largely nonsexual, little more than a casual expression of friendship. Check out the movie American Pie for an example of this. One of the characters had engaged in that sort of activity with his girlfriend, both "Hoovering" and "minetting," and yet they agonized over whether it was appropriate for them to "go all the way."
If your total experience with under 25ers was what you saw on MTV and in the movies, you could write off a whole generation. Fortunately, real life ain't MTV, thank Christ...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If your total experience with under 25ers was what you saw on MTV and in the movies, you could write off a whole generation. Fortunately, real life ain't MTV, thank Christ...
How do you know if you're over the hill? If you can remember when MTV still played music videos!
How about those of us who remember when the TV pictures were in black and white, the screen was round, the set was hooked to an antenna and the people who started MTV hadn't been born yet... I guess we're on the downhill side and picking up speed!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And remember when we used to put tinfoil on the rabbit ears to get the distant stations better?
Yes, I do! Although we didn't have to do that at our house, fortunately - my father had a huge antenna concealed in the gable over my room, and we were up on a hill, so the reception was pretty good - but my paternal grandparents (in Schenevus, New York) were far enough away from a decent signal that they had to use the foil to get any reception at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When my TV was in the basement I couldn't get UHF so I replaced the old loop with a huge loop of heavy guage wire attached with like paperclips. With it I was able to catch a greater changing magnetic flux which in turn induced a greater current in the antenna loop thus improving my reception.
Did you put a flux capacitor in the circuit with the loop?
No, but I had to jam the top in a fold in the forced air heating duct so it wouldn't flop over.
You have just failed the 80's pop-culture test.
-Hank :)
If he did, he now gets only original episodes of Ozzie and Harriet, or Survivior XXVII-The Moon!
-Hank :)
I'll bet that you can even remember when we had to get up and walk to the TV set to change the channel!
Oh yes... very well! (Of course, that still happens around my house when someone misplaces the remote... but I watch so little TV that it doesn't really affect me.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dude, the TV in my living room still has KNOBS! And no cable. But I do have a remote control:
"Fern! Change the channel!"
-Hank :)
How do you train a plant to change the channel?
You don't. You train your younger sister.
-Hank
With difficulty, but it was easier than training the cat.
-Hank :)
Either you have a patented method, or your sister is little and still takes orders from her Big Brother. If she's over 12, fat chance and a lot of grief from her.
Doesn't work to well anymore, she's 19, and rarely home.
-Hank
The basement TV to which I refered to earlier was an early 80's or late 70's Zieneth model with a channel and volume knob and some little adjustlemt knobes inside a pennel. It served perfectly well for about 15 years w/ my grandfather and then 8 years with us. Towards the end of its life the picture would get a blue tint at times and when you turned it on you would get some acring in the back. Sometimes it would "trip off" right after you turned it on. A combination of hand positioning, setting it to channel 6 and rapid manupilation of the on/off button would get it going again. It died in August of last year. During a phillies game the middle 1/3 of the picture condenced into a single bright line and the top and bottom 3rds came together. Watching a baseball game where the players had no torsos was amusing to say the least. We now have a modern RCA w. a remote. How said american engineering dosen't last.
The late 70's Zeniths were probably made in Mexico.
Tv's, except those larger than 35", have a life cycle of 5 to 7 years. That it lasted more than twice that is a testament to its design.
-Hank
Well, I'm not kidding about the acring in the back. You would hear like 5 or 6 loud SNAP's in the back and you see the flashes on the wall. Poor old thing, I'll miss her.
My 13" Sony Trinitron is now 22 years old and still works fine. The brightness knob is a bit fussy; the screen will black out if you start fiddling around with it. I suspect the contacts are dirty.
I'd still have to do that with my 22-year-old Sony Trinitron if it wasn't connected to a cable-ready VCR.
I gather that you leave the TV on Channel 3, and use your VCR as a tuner. You still have to manually turn your TV on though, don't you?
Correct. I also typically turn whichever VCR I'm using on and off maually as well. The cable box is another story. I'm usually no more than 3 feet from the set when I'm watching it anyway.
The living room TV has been set up the same way ever since its cable-ready circuitry croaked.
I have to get up to change the channel because I don't have a wireless keyboard.
Maybe I should get one, since I can even turn my computer on from the keyboard.
09/05/2000
Since we're discussing older television sets, remember when you first turned it on you had to wait for it to warm up for sound and picture to come on? How about when you turned it off (black & white consoles) the picture would rapidly shrink to a fading white dot?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I do. Our old Philco (with the round screen) took close to three minutes to warm up... the Zenith that replaced it warmed up in less than 30 seconds, a vast improvement! The sound came first on the Philco but IIRC we had a picture first on the Zenith.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I bought an "instant on" TV years ago and discovered that it was actually always on. Virtually all the tubes except the picture tube remained lit when the set was turned off.
Which is why they were recalled. Fire hazard. Since transistors replaced tubes, the only tube left in the set is the picture tube.
-Hank
Our Magnavox color set had a "quick on" feature which did precisely that. It basically kept the tubes warm. My father wanted to disable this feature because he felt it wasted power (there was a switch on the back of the set for this purpose), but my mother overruled him.
My Sony Trinitron takes about 30 seconds to warm up even though it's solid state.
When I told my parents about the "always on", they found the switch in the back and turned the set off every night. They're very frugal.
Gee, do they do that now with their remote-control TV? That's also always on.
-Hank
No, and I won't tell them, either.
Before I went into the exciting world of trains, I was in the TV repair business. I hesitate to mention this because there may be a former customer or two here. I remember the old B/W sets that had tubes but none the less were 'instant on' models. The manufacturer would put a silcon diode across one side of the on/off sw. This would allow the filaments of the tubes to 'idle at about 1/2 powr whit no B+ applied to the tubes. This, of course, meant that the manufacturers had to do away with the power x-former. This saved weight and money but instead of all 6 volt tubes, we ended up with many different voltage versions of the same tube like 6LQ6, 12LQ6. 24LQ6 etc. Now what relevance this has to the original thread, I can't imagine but I'd love to hook Hilly up to the output of a 3DC3 (anyone know what a 3DC3 is?) and then ask her about Whitewater.
The high-voltage rectifier?
That sounds about right. Our Magnavox color set had a 3CU3 Hi-V rectifier tube. You'd be OK as long as you didn't touch the tube socket itself without discharging the capacitor first. I made that mistake once - WHOOOOOOOOAAAAAA!!!
Similar to an R2D2?
09/06/2000
[I can't imagine but I'd love to hook Hilly up to the output of a 3DC3 (anyone know what a 3DC3 is?) and then ask her about Whitewater.]
Better yet, the anode of a 1B3/1G3GT !
Bill "Newkirk"
1B3 (used in B/W TV) had an output of around 19KVDC whereas the 3A3 or 3DC3 (used in color TV) had an output of around 27KVDC. The additional 8KV would make quite an impression.
Hey Steve, you think we could do the same to a certain railfan window fanatic at SubTalk residing on the West Coast??
Doug aka BMTman
Why use gunpowder when roachpowder will do?
Perhaps if he sees that his ideas are universally repudiated here, he'll either rethink his misconceptions about life in this country or more likely, he'll move on.
Which means that all must immediately put him in their Killfile. If not wishing to do that, NEVER, NEVER, EVER respond to ANYTHING he posts. Respond once and the whole merry-go-round starts up all over again.
I hope you aren't talking about me. I live on the Left Coast and I have ruffled some feathers in the past, but I know I have some friends on this site, so I'm hoping that I'm not who you have in mind.
No, Fred, you are NOT the subject, it's the Railfan Window loving, Anti-R142, Can't spell if the salvation of the Republic was at hand, get's into diatribes with Train Dude and others, idiot.
I know now who you mean. All I can say is that I'm glad it isn't me. I have patched things up with Doug BMT Man, and a couple of others who I had differences with. I need no enemies on this site, only friendly rivals.
This site is like one big clique. And since Train Dude is in it, the R-142 loving dude is by default excluded. I'm not part of any subtalk cliques either which is one of the reasons why after 9 months of almost continual posting under the name Seattle Guy, Light Rail Rules!, and Siemens SD-600 I am retiring from these boards come september 20th and will only read messages for information, but not post. I feel it is useless to post ideas because the only people whoever respond to them with anything more than "you don't live in new york, your idea makes no sense" are the other people who aren't in the main clique. Subtalk is a little like high school in that regard. I wish i had Salaam's email, he was a cool guy, and I'd like to keep up an L.A. correspondence with him because I like redbirds AND R-142s and when I visit NYC i hog the railfan windows too.
Abe
hey abe... there is another clique here at subtalk of people who don't take things too seriously... this is a highly subversive group aimed at rattling the cages of those who get too caught up in their fascination with transit... we need wrong thinking members such as yourself to provide a credible voice for this movement... i hope you stick around...
i don't have a lot of time come sept. 20th (school starting) anyway to post and stuff. the truth is i don't agree with salaam on all the issues - he is a little to the left of me politically - but i get really sick of the way this whole message board kind of gangs up on him. how many messages have anyone else posted that didn't have a 10 page bibliography of their sources cited? I don't even know what the heck "workfare" is, I've never heard of it and I haven't really read every single post on it either. But I can't see how it's so important that people have to get into verbal fisticuffs over it. And Salaam isn't worse than anyone else when it comes to namecalling... at least some people (heypaul, David Pirmann - Web Site Host, etc.) have refrained from posting messages dissing on him. No one here has really dissed on ME, but the fact taht everyone on this board is so immature as gang up on people pisses me off and it's REALLY not that cool. Me and my friend Chris (he runs a website on Portland's LRT, www.maxlightrail.com) are railfanning the whole Southern Division in the spring and it would be cool if the people on this board with a sense of humor hooked up with us at Sheepshead or something, but I dunno...this is way too long of a long-ass message anyway.
I don't even know what the heck "workfare" is, I've never heard of it and I haven't really read every single post on it either.
Well then, if you don't know what workfare is, how the hell can you say it doesn't belong on Subtalk? Tell us what else you never heard of so we'll know what we're not supposed to talk about.
hey abe... although spring is a long ways off... let me and some of the other chuckleheads know when you're coming, and we will prepare some cream pies to welcome you to southern brooklyn...
By the time we hit the southern division we will have already hit the NYW&B so we will welcome your South Brooklyn greeting and return with a friendly Bronx cheer...
since we now have a thread about me, with my name in the title, which is positive and at least this subthread is untainted by salaam-haters, perhaps Jeffery Rosen, one of the other few who see Salaam for what he is - an okay guy who gets picked on a lot - could post here and we'd have a thread with Abe, Paul, and Jeffery - the only people on this board, it seems, who have supported salaam...
thank you sir free trainst video of your choice !!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
ALWAYS JUDGE SOMEONE & OR ANYBODY BY THE GOOD THAT THEY DO CONTRIBUTE
ETC.. LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO OF GOOD WEIGH THAT AGAINST WHAT YOU MAY
THINK OF ILL OF THAT PERSON ETC.. ( sorry for the large caps )
thankz salaam allah October is PROJECT REDBIRD MONTH !
Hey, Abe, I'll meet up with you guys. I'll just have to make sure I keep my sense of humor between now and the Spring. ;-)
Just keep in mind that my tour-guide fees are not cheap. A good meal at Nathan's should suffice.
Doug aka BMTman
How about something next summer. I am anxious as all get out to finally lay eyes on some of my railfan buddies.
getting back to the posts,
How about something next summer. I am anxious as all get out to finally lay eyes on some of my railfan buddies.
Lay eyes on them? Dude Fred, I'm sorry but I'm a heterosexual and I can tell you New York is one place i WON'T be coming next summer. The MUNI would be safer........
>>>I am anxious as all get out to finally lay eyes on some of my railfan
buddies. <<<
I wouldn't be TOO anxious.
www.forgotten-ny.com
i'm not sure dude. You seem to be one of the Salaam-haters. If he annoys you that much than stop talking about him.
Abe,
Don't go. Anyone who uses names and put-downs instead of facts, doesn't have a clue.
Salaam is a lot of other people. If people like Train Dude, Pigs of Royal Island, Doug aka BMTman, etc. can all call Salaam names and put HIM down, I don't see why he can't do the same. I don't really care who called anyone names first. If you want to continnue to argue that Salaam is "worse" than others on this board than you will have to start dissecting which names are considered worse than others. If were referring to me publicly (on this board) as a problem person, saying I "don't have a clue" because my opinions differed from theirs, then I'd probably resort to name calling like he does (and those are only the names from the last post). I am really fed up with everyone picking on him.
Everyone at times is a victim on this site, and I was no exception. Usually things work their way out and get back to normal. There are a few that do have a tendency to keep the embers burning. Salaam and I made peace long ago, but there was a time he and I were at swords point. Give it time and all will settle down. At least Salaam knows he has a few buddies on the web.
saying I "don't have a clue" because my opinions differed from theirs,
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with him, it has to do with his failing to understand concepts. The fact that Pac Bell Park (example) was built exclusively with private money is not an opinion that someone can disagree with. Instead of giving up the fight, he continues to listen to AM Radio as gospel.
There are others who tried to be his friends but were trampled on when they supported him.
yes exactly. I am one of those people. Look at the history - every post on this board was responded to nicely. Now I start posting posts that put me on Salaam's side and Train Dude goes rabid on me, saying I'm doomed to work at McDonald's the rest of my life, etc. etc... Another example is Jeffery Rosen, who posted a very favorable Salaam post pointing out that he had been baited and was attacked by Train Dude and Dan Lawrence. heypaul has remained neutral in this whole thing. You don't have to agree with Salaam's viewpoints or even how he arrived at those viewpoints. But posting messages about him that are rude is uncalled for. You are a good example. Some people supported him from the start (like me), some were mean to him from the start, but you started out being mean to him and are now fine and calm and realize that you shouldn't have spewed. Which makes you no worse than any of the original Salaam-Supporters. If only some other people (I won't say Train dude's name) would follow your example...
You also missed where people supported Salaam, and he turned around their support of him as detrimental to him. He even replied to a 'You're absolutely right' post in his favor by calling the person who said it 'mr right winged idiot'
He doesn't deserve the defense.
-Hank
on what post did this happen ? & when ?? what tricks are you up to now? Oh thats right its halloween upcoming & the moon is full!!
I have been off post for a while, I thought that you guys were talking about that Right Wing School Teacher from Arcadia who loves the Slow Beach Loco
I hope you don't think I'm an enemy because of my tongue-in-cheek post saying that you sounded like an old fart and MUST be over 60. Of course you'd have no way of knowing that I'm 59.
Bob
I'll be 60 on October 27. Rather than be referred to as an old fart, I like the term people use for me here in Arcadia, California. As a former amateur baseball coach, they call me "an old warhorse." That sounds a lot better to me.
Well happy birthday next month, young fellow.
We gotta be young at heart and we'll be ok. I wonder if Frank Sinatra up there is smiling at us?
I'm sure he's smiling at you, but I'm not Italian. :)
Neither was Sammy Davis Jr., or Joey Bishop or Peter Lawford, nor most of his wives. Frank was an ok guy. Color, and nationality meant nothing to him. He even became a Republican. Quite a guy. Believe me, if you're young at heart, he IS smiling at you.
Chub: You are now an honorary Italian.
Grazie!
Fred, of course Sinatra is up there smiling down on us -- he too was a railfan!
Doug aka BMTman
Didn't know that Doug. But if you tell me his favorite train was the Brighton you'll really throw me for a loss. Good to hear, though.
From what I understand he liked the 'A' Line (not even close).
That's why he had a set of O gauge R-9 cars made some years back.
Doug aka BMTman
Why would he like the A? No variety whatsoever. Until the terminal moved into Queens in 1956 it was all underground. Maybe some of the stops along the way gave him a real charge. Who knows? I'm sure there are many who wonder how I can be such a great Sea Beach fan.
>>> Why would he like the A? <<<
Because it's the fastest way to get to Sugar Hill in Harlem!
Tom
the first poster on this thread..gunpowder etc.. & his love of roaches
?? made no sense whatsoever !!also which state, on the "" left coast"?
washington -oregon- california ? only his hairdresser knows for sure!
Maybe Ol' Blue Eyes was enamored with Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train", or perhaps he liked the R-9's and their persona as being "heavy, realible and built-like-tanks".
Also, the 8th Avenue line was a mighty fast run even back in the days of the 9s.
Doug aka BMTman
This does not change the fact that you will still be an old fart.
-Hank :)
Thanks Hank. That's just what I didn't need to hear on this Monday.
the PASADENA BLUE LINE ( when they finally get around to building it )
is supposed to go to ARCADIA CALIFORNIA 2-two towns east of me but:
Do not hold your breath too long!! ( be & think positive )!!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
The Blue Line in my town. Yippee I O Ki A. But I'll celebrate when I see it happen. Pardon me if I'm less than confident on such an event.
I do feel your pain there !! they have a HDQ. building on south fair oaks next
to the ""shakers restaurant"" where COLLIAU CHEVROLET used to be !!
you see the plaque on the front of the building right there in
south pasadena !! BLUE LINE TRANSIT """" ( i forgot the rest )
By the way have you seen the ""PASADENA BLUE LINE"" webpage?? & and
also check out the BLAG page no BLUE LINE AT GRADE.webpage
Do you remember when the SANTA FE railroad ran thru arcadia ??
Man did they ever run fast as hell!!! ( amtrak too ) ....
thankz salaam allah ...
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I take it you still used an isolation transformer.
My 12" B&W in the Kitchen fades into a little white dot.
I didn't think Bill Clinton should have been impeached (I think he deserved it but the nation didn't, if you can understand that) but he put me in the position of explaining to a 6-year-old and an
8-year-old why he should not be punished for lying before our courts (and before God, if you still take that implication in an oath) but they will be punished for lying about a lot less.
Look at it this way, at least you didn't have to explain what the President did with Monica. THAT would have been awkward :-)
[...] you didn't have to explain what the President did with Monica [...]
Oh, they asked. I explained that he "dated" Monica while he was married and that that was wrong. That explanation proved sufficient to my kids and they accepted it.
I take it you left out the part about the cigar...:-)
So what you're saying is you won't vote for a person because you don't like her husband. Guilt by association???
>>> He PERJURED himself in a legal proceeding. <<<
Just like so many of Bill Clinton's partisan detractors in Congress, you claim he committed perjury. None of them were able to point to any particular words which amounted to perjury, and I doubt that you can either. Even the judge that censored him claimed he mislead the court, not that he committed perjury.
Tom
Actually I haven't heard either Her Royal Highness OR Rick Lazio address transit issues even once during the campaign.
www.forgotten-n.com
(Actually I haven't heard either Her Royal Highness OR Rick Lazio address transit issues even once during the campaign. )
They are competing to demostrate how little they care about the people of New York City.
Well, they have to find someway to get the upstate votes.
Actually I haven't heard either Her Royal Highness OR Rick Lazio address transit issues even once during the campaign.
They are competing to demostrate how little they care about the people of New York City.
At the risk of sounding terribly cynical, neither of them has any pressing need to care. Hillary knows that she's going to get a huge majority of votes in NYC no matter what she does or doesn't do. Granted, a strong campaign might help with turnout, but she's better off concentrating on Upstate's swing voters. Lazio, for his part, knows that NYC's a lost cause no matter what he does.
There is a moral to this story. If NYC voters want more attention from politicians, they have to be willing to vote for candidates of either party. That way, Democrats won't take them for granted and Republicans won't write them off.
Bravo !!!! Well said. Of course you only scratched the surface. This is one cold, calculating bitch. Whitewater aside, I think Vince Foster found out how truly vicious (the Clintons) can be.
You're alleging murder. Prove it! Show me the evidence.
Just like a true demogog - er make that a true democrat, you are inferring where I did not imply. I did not mention murder nor did I suggest it. There are enough details of Mr. Foster's 'suicide' that are not forthcoming to leave a cloud of suspicion. For example - when was the last time you heard of the body of a suicide victim being mysteriously moved? That on top of the reported sexual link to the first lady makes me a bit more than curious. But if this does not bother you, I have some Redbirds for sale.....
What do you mean you didn't infer murder??! Vince Foster was killed (presumable by himself) and you said he found out how "vicious" the Clintons are. That plainly implies that the Clintons had something to do with his death. Why can't you republicans just come out and say what you mean instead of trying plant subliminal sugestions in the national mind.
I won't vote for Hillary because I wouldn't want New York State to be in Monica's position. And because I almost got stuck in traffic behind Bill and Hillary's motorcade while cruising around Upstate New York recently.
But seriously, we are replacing the only major politician in the state who understands the value of transportation infrstructure. The only one who cares about the future.
I see Hillary as being willing to trade an adverse funding formula for New York (and we have enough of those already) for a symbolic victory on one of her social issues. What we really need is someone to say enough is enough, and call the bluff of the right wing voting rednecks who despise federal spending but somehow end up getting most if it.
"You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middle man in Washington."
You are right on target. The quality of "leadership" in this country today is pathetic, and I think most Americans know it, which is why so few people vote. There are many sites on the net which expand on the themes you have mentioned; I visit some of them regularly. I could provide some links, but this really isn't the appropriate place.
Here's a canidate I'd vote for: www.duke2000.org
Here's a canidate I'd vote for: http://www.duke2000.org
It looks that DB Tradeau dook down his Uncle Duke for president site. I love that guy.
Note that he doesn't mention Tricky Dick, the runaway "stagflation" during his terms, the gas/oil crisis, and his deliberate attempt to rig the 1972 presdential election.
And how about the so-called "Great Communicator", who on the Iran-Contra witness stand repeated the phrase "I can't recall..."?
I'm a proud Democrat. I have problems with some of Clinton's behavior. However, at some point Gore needs to pull a reversal of Reagan and ask, "Are you WORSE off today than you were eight years ago?" Anyone who answers "yes" is a damn liar.
[Note that he doesn't mention Tricky Dick, the runaway "stagflation" during his terms, the gas/oil crisis, and his deliberate attempt to rig the 1972 presdential election]
And I assume you won't mention the little matter of the 1960 election, when the voting "irregularities" in Chicago secured the victory for JFK.
["Are you WORSE off today than you were eight years ago?" Anyone who answers "yes" is a damn liar.]
Thanks to the economic policies started by Reagan and continuing through the Clinton years because of the Republican congress.
The Regan policies sent up into the 1992 recession and left us with a missive debt (although it was a fun ride for us military buffs). Anyone who thinks that giving money to the rich in anyway trickles down to the working Americans needs to be taken out and beaten with rubber hoses.
[Anyone who thinks that giving money to the rich in anyway trickles down to the working Americans needs to be taken out and beaten with rubber hoses.]
But it HAS trickled down - and that's why most (although I will certainly agree not all) Americans are doing better now than they were prior to Reaganonmics.
The reason for our ecomonic boom is because of the information and PC revolution, plain and simple. Where did all that tax cut money trickle down to? French Champaigne? German cars? Oh, I know, they were able to hire an extra maid or a gardener.
The DEMOCRATIC way to manage wealth is to have it flow up from the working people. They have the money, they choose the products, they descide which americans get rich (via selling a sucessful product). When you empower the workers and the middle class through a tax structure you make many lives better and you free up cash for economic devolopment that would haver otherwise been stashed away in a Vanderbelt style mansion. Those who can pay the most should pay the most. Don't tell me that its not fair because if you were given the option of getting a 6 figure sallery and a high tax bracket you'd take it. They want a tax cut because they are greedy. Well when they get a cut, some janitor who dosen't know if he can pay the rent next month has to pick up the tab. Now you tell me if that's fair.
We need greatly incerased max. tax brackets and a constitutional amendment to accomodate a non repealable estate tax with no one person able to inherit more than 10 million dollars and as for Greenspan, his war on inflation is really class warfare on the workers who really create the wealth. greenspan is really a plutocrat married to a Corporate media shill. far from being a great intellect, as reported in the corporate media, he is a megalomaniac who sees to it that the rich get richer while the working/ middle class dissapears. As for workfare, the working/middle class is obligated to see that all people have the opportunity to provide for themselves. THE DOLE IS NOT A RIGHT but a means for those who through disability or TEMPORARY displacement to provide for themselves and their families and get the training they need to return to productivity. a temporary training wage is one tool to accomplish this. However Social Services should see to it that the successful "WEP" is transitioned into full employment and union status as soon as he demonstrates ability to perform a full time job and has marketable skills.
[We need greatly incerased max. tax brackets and a constitutional amendment to accomodate a non repealable estate tax with no one person able to inherit more than 10 million...]
Then why even bother trying to get ahead? Under your scenario, what the government won't take while you're alive, they'll take when you're dead. There's no incentive to try to do better because, if you do, the Government will take it away anyway. That's Socialism, pure and simple.
And easily avoidable.
All of the assets above 10 million would merely be placed into a corporation, with the "heir" becoming the CEO of after the death of the original owner.
First of all for people who make millions and millions its not about working "harder". They probably work just as "hard" as the rest of us. The difference is that they also have millions in the bank to work for them. If a CEO is offed a huge bonus will he turn it down because he can only keep 40% instead of 60%? Will someone deside to stick $100,000 in the matteres just because if he invests it he'll only keep %50 of his dividends?
The only thing that will change is if big stockholders of something like Conrail might deside to reject a merger because keeping the stock would be better. And more competition is better for everyone.
My Grandfather once paid a %90 marginal tax on a $50,000 bonus in 1955. Todays taxes are nothing compared to what they were back in the day. I can never see a time when a govt. tax will actually cost someone utility to make more money, even with a hike for the rich.
BTW one of my views of Capalitisim is "Give addocding to your abilities, recieve according to your abilities". Living off dadies money is not an "ability".
Anyone who thinks that giving money to the rich in anyway trickles down to the working Americans needs to be taken out and beaten with rubber hoses.
But it HAS trickled down - and that's why most (although I will certainly agree not all) Americans are doing better now than they were prior to Reaganonmics.
One often-overlooked point is the fact that the definition of "prosperity" keeps being racheted upward. People of all economic classes want more and more these days. Heck, I can (barely) remember when many families had a single automobile, which Dad used for getting to work. Mom probably had a license but frequently lacked a car of her own. Today, of course, both parents have vehicles, as do any teens of driving age. Or take televisions. Seldom do you see a family with just one idiot box in the living room; today each family member has his or her own boob tube, with cable and probably a VCR (soon to be replaced by a DVD). There are of course many other examples. What matters in this context is that this general spread of possessions has occurred among all socioeconomic classes, save maybe the very poorest.
[Today, of course, both parents have vehicles, as do any teens of driving age.]
Including SUV's :-)
The poorest have become richer. Many people considered to be below the poverty line have cars, TVs, VCRs, microwaves and air conditioners.
>>>>One often-overlooked point is the fact that the definition of "prosperity" keeps being racheted upward.
People of all economic classes want more and more these days.<<<
When Gore complains about 'tax cuts for the rich' during the debates, I'd like to hear somebody ask him if he can put a dollar figure to what he says is 'rich.'
To me, 'rich' is an annual income of $100,000. Many subtalkers would find that figure laughable. But that proves that 'rich' is hardly definable: it's relative.
Gore's cuts seem to benefit marrieds instead of singles, so I lose, while Bush's cuts do seem to benefit the upper brackets, so I'd lose again.
Hey, I'd like 'em to lower income tax rates by 20% for the middle income bracket, but that, they'll never do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(What matters in this context is that this general spread of possessions has occurred among all socioeconomic classes, save maybe the very poorest. )
Add in the poorest, at least among those who do not have social problems. Every in the projects has a color TV these days. In 1940s a substantial share of the population did not have all plumbing fixtures, refrigerators, or a phone. These were not the rich getting these things for the first time. And how many of you have had your first airplane ride since 1980? Our grandparents had to leave the old country behind and never go back. Today's (legal) immigrants, even the working class, call on a phone and fly back for a visit every couple of years.
The price of all kinds of stuff is falling. Thank automation and trade for that. The poor benefit as well as the rich. The only losers are those who had a posistion of privilege in the past who have not lost it.
Well Regan wasn't lying. He really couldn't reall because of his Alzhimers.
Well, Clinton doesn't have Alzheimers - what's his excuse?????? Must be smoking too many cigars.
I am saddened and dismayed at the extent of ignorance and stupidity displayed in the beginning of the thread-originating post (I didn't get past the beginning) and most of the responses. Obviously a large number of SubTalkers are willing to clutter a very interesting board with ignorant political rubbish.
Please take it elsewhere.
Another self-appointed censor? Okay, ChuChu, which will do more for mass transit? The republican from NY or the dumocrat from the ozarks. Now that it's transit relevant, do we have your permission to discuss it? (Get a real life)
My vote is neither. After the Big-Dig fiasco, no large amount of federal dollars for transportaion projects in the northeast will ever pass a congressional vote.
NO, no you miss the point. The object of the exercise is the transfer of revenue to the bribing classes (including the Davis-Bacon protected tradespersons who otherwise would not be as well paid). Any actual construction is merely for show. As to Lazio v. Clinton. IMHO Democrats on balance have a better record funding public transit. I make no judgement on allegations of criminality or corrption in this case;
So since you know chuchubob is an adult, you can't criticize his comments and use age as an excuse.
You see, people who are not seventeen do feel the same way. It's not a matter of age.
BTW, I don't care which side is right or wrong. I read this thread, so I guess I like it that it's here.
Hey piglet, what is your problem? I criticized ChuChu for attempting to be a self appointed censor. I care not one bit which side of the argument he falls. However, if you have a problem with what I post, i suggest you start to write in a less convoluted way so I can understand whatyou are trying to say.
This has nothing to do with chuchubob. It has to do with your obviously ageist attitude in dealing with Siemens SD-600.
You made the exact same critical response to both of them. The only thing different between the two is the ageism. In my original response, I said that an adult would just as easily post the same kind of message you hate, you just wouldn't be able to pull your condescending age crap.
>>> It has to do with your obviously ageist attitude <<<
Pigs;
You do not seem to understand what ageism is.
It is not ageism if one points to a remark by a young person which displays naivete and the lack of wisdom which comes with age and chides him/her for the obvious lack of worldly experience the remark conveys.
It is also not ageism if one points to an elderly person who cannot remember his name or address or who his relatives are, and suggests that he is senile.
It is ageism to suggest that anything said by a young person is not worth listening to because the person is young, or that anyone over a certain age must be senile. There does not seem to be any ageism is the prior remarks regarding the post by Siemens SD-600.
It does no good to toss the term "ageism" around loosely.
Of course my generation has come from the background of "Don't trust anyone over thirty" to "Don't trust anyone under thirty."
Tom
In this case he did use that as an excuse for showing that Siemens' messages were not worth listening too. In other messages, posted by people who are known to be adults, he would post the same response, except without the second paragraph. That shows that age has nothing to do with the attitude of those who are against the off topic messages.
I thought that Hillary was from Connecticut and went to Yale. On that score Connecticut has a very good transit system with the inland route, the ConnDOT division of Metro North, Shore Line East and most of the smaller cities have bus service (I can get to Hartford for $1 and then transfer for free to another bus!)
Hillary is from Illinois and went to Wellesley and Yale Law.
Well Metra is very good to. Never-the-less she is no hick razourback from AK.
Dear Train,
I chose to wait until you passed the crossed turd that had you so upset Sunday and Monday because your thinking was clouded to such an extent that I didn't want to elicit another embarrassing response from you. Your recent posts indicate that you're feeling better, so I'd like to say that I didn't feel that I was appointing myself a censor. Obviously I am in the minority in thinking a thread of political rants belongs on a political message board instead of a transit board, since scores of posts appear in this thread and only about 5 (in and out of this thread) pleaded that we limit ourselves to transit-related topics. So you win by a landslide when counting posts.
When counting posts with rational thought behind them, however, I think we're about even.
I generally eschew personal attacks, but I try not to judge others by my personal standards, so I shant complain about your mean-spirited attacks on other SubTalkers. To be fair, I must point out that your remarks about bringing friends to the IQ contest elicited audible laughter, and your recent rolling post had me rolling, especially the remark about demeaning lowland gorillas.
Returning to the topic, I heartily support the Bill of Rights and stand firmly against censorship. Censorship of this board lies in the hands of Mr. Pirmann and the government. I am not Mr. Pirmann, nor would I suggest how he should run his board. I applaud him and would change nothing. Nor am I the government, nor have I been employed by the government since I received my DD214 many years ago.
Lastly, had I gotten a life, I wouldn't have posted this rant, so you got me there.
Respectfully,
Chu
Chu,
Do not take me too seriously either. I tend to bring the frustrations of professional life here and vice versa. I don''t like censorship though. I also don't think that any topic (properly labled) should be off limits as long as it's in good taste. You never know when it will lead and they usually lead to somewhere amusing or interesting.
I'm glad that you liked the lesbian eskimo & lowland gorilla remarks. I'm trying to prove that contrary to some subtalker's beliefs, I do have a sense of humor.
Which leads me to my final thought. To anyone who was not amused by my dusting of salaam - I really do apologize if I offended anyone else.
Chu,
Do not take me too seriously either. I tend to bring the frustrations of professional life here and vice versa. I don''t like censorship though. I also don't think that any topic (properly labled) should be off limits as long as it's in good taste. You never know when it will lead and they usually lead to somewhere amusing or interesting.
I'm glad that you liked the lesbian eskimo & lowland gorilla remarks. I'm trying to prove that contrary to some subtalker's beliefs, I do have a sense of humor.
Which leads me to my final thought. To anyone who was not amused by my dusting of salaam - I really do apologize if I offended anyone else. I just think that he has shown himself to be more dangerous than ignorant and I don't think the killfile is an adequate defense against his kind of hate mongering.
Thank you for taking my reply in the manner intended. I thought you might not get past the beginning.
Bob
I love it! Mr. R46 and I finally agree 100% n something ...
Lazio for Senate!
These people [the Founding Fathers} were the creative genius behind the greatest social experiment in history to succeed. Up to that point in time democracy hadn't been tried in millenia, and then not in the scope we enjoy here. They framed the constitution, a unique and
incredibly dynamic document with amazing ideas for the time: all men are created equal. The founding fathers suffered for their vision. The British pursued these men and imprisoned many. Some lost their fortunes and died penniless. In almost every case they gave far more to the new America than they received. Truly selfless acts.
While I certainly agree with the main thrust of your post, I must point out that the story of how the Founding Fathers suffered terribly at the hands of the British is, alas, an urban legend of uncertain vintage. In actual fact, not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence was executed, and only a couple were imprisoned. Very few of them lost their wealth during the Revolution, and in most if not all such cases their financial reverses would have happened even without their political activities.
In actual fact, not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence was executed, and only a couple were imprisoned. Very few of them lost their wealth during the Revolution, and in most if not all such cases their financial reverses would have happened even without their political activities.
Well, duh! Because they won.
If the British had succeeded most would have lost their lives and their property. Their families would also have suffered.
In actual fact, not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence was executed, and only a couple were imprisoned. Very few of them lost their wealth during the Revolution, and in most if not all such cases their financial reverses would have happened even without their political activities.
Well, duh! Because they won.
Many of the Signers spent several years in British-occupied territory before the war ended. There was more than ample time for them to have come to grief.
"Treason is an excuse invented by the victor for hanging the loser."
B. Franklin
And Hillary also personally interfered with the programming decisions of Manhattan’s public-access channels by pressuring them to take two shows that were critical of the Clintons off the air. As for me, I’ll take Dr. Mark McMahon in the Sept. 12 Democratic primary.
This has got to be the most intelligent, concise, and right-on-the-money commentary on the last 8 years of Clinton-Gore. BRAVO!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU VOTE!
This book just arrived at our museum store. See tmny.safeshopper.com.
The book has lots of nice color photos and information for the following systems: London, Moscow, Toronto, Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Paris, Boston, Washington DC and Tokyo.
i be visiting n.y. in nov,2000 will somebody tell more about the subway the last i rode the subway was in 1983 so what train i should sigh see first.
The last time was 1983? WOW!!!. It would be very difficult to say which train you should see first. While the R142 and 142A cars come to mind since there are only 2 trains of those cars running (barely) at the moment, you might wnat to see the R-62 cars on the #1 and 3 lines or the R-62A cars on the #4 & 6 lines or the R-68/68A cars on the B, or D lines (this could go on for a while but I won't).
Check the New York City Transit website for various bits of information before you leave http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/index.html
so that you will know what construction projects will be causing diversions all over the system. Don't forget to try to get a Subway map ahead of time so you can see what the current layout is (2 new lines have been added sine you were here last - the 63rd St line and the Archer Av extension.
If anything, you should go see the Transit Museum in Brooklyn and the Museum's store in Grand Central Terminal. In fact GCT should be a definate stop on anyone's itinerary since the entire terminal has been refurbished.
You're a little confused. The 4 runs R-62s. The 1/9, 3, 4, 5, and 6 run R-62As (but it's only a train or two on the 5, the 6 is mixed about half-and-half with Redbirds, and there are a handful of Redbirds on the 4 as well).
Mark
The 4 runs no R-62A's
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's what's changed
The spraypaint's gone from everything except the tunnels. No more Blue/Silver paintscheme, its either stainless steel or red.
No more trains with front windows you can open.
There are no more double-lettered trains.
No more unairconditioned cars (except on the #7)
Everything's slower.
No more blinking lights (except on the #7 and some #6 trains).
Digital signs on the R-44/46, all assigned to the A and Queens Blvd. lines.
No more rollsigns on the front of R-32/38 trains, the air conditioning left no room, so they have an illegible digital sign.
Horribly scratched up reflective metal paneling in the R-62/68 cars.
Various route changes, here are the important ones:
No Manhattan Bridge south side or Broadway Express.
Skip-stop service on the #1 and J lines.
No more H train, now its another S.
No more train to the plane.
M goes down the west end, not the Brighton.
Dean st. on the Franklin shuttle is no longer existant.
Jamaica avenue el extended to Parsons/Archer as a subway, Queens Blvd and Metropolitan ave stations demolished, structure removed.
No more Hillside ave. express, E trains go to Parsons/Archer.
N/R switched Queens Terminals.
New connection being built, from 36st in Queens on the E/F/G/R to the 63st line Q/B/S, and the 63st line connects to the B'way, 6th ave, and the 2nd ave lines (the 2ave line's not there, but the connection is).
Map is now 20% bigger, and has MTA railroads on the back, plus many major bus connections.
OK, so the others have given you a little flavor for all the stuff that has changed, but if you're one of those that ride at the storm door you only have a few choices:
- Red Birds/IRTs ... you can still catch one on most lines mixed in with R62 & 62a, plus new R142 & 142a
- R32s are on C/E/N/R
- R38 are on A/C
- R40 (slants) are on Q/L/N & sometimes B/D
Also don't forget the nice ride on the PATH where you can catch one of those new HBLR or a old PCC on Newark City Subway.
For the realy old stuff the TA Museum has a nice collection. If you were here earlier you could also see some at Shoreline @ Branford CT or Kingston NY or Warehouse Point CT.
Mr t__:^)
Try riding the Q on the Brighton Line. It's an express train with a railfan view that gets up to some impressive speeds. And of course the scenery on your way out to Coney Island is one of the best on the system.
For interesting S-curve action and some unique trackage, take the L train out of Manhattan to Canarsie. You will again be riding a train with a railfan window and you will want to get off at Broadway-Junction to take a view (or photographs) of the massive steel structure and maze of switch-trackage between that station and Atlantic Avenue. It is due for a major overhaul that will leave the structure vastly different than it looks now (alot smaller, with less trackage).
You'll also want to experience the A train run out to Far Rockaway. You might get lucky with a railfan window train, but that is not a guarantee.
Doug aka BMTman
Let's not forget the mostly outdoors J train and the nice long elevated ride on the #2 to Wakefield; Pelham Bay is shorter outdoors but still interesting. As you mention the Q there's still the prospect of returning from Coney Island on the F or B.
I just saw an old pic today and I am now wondering, What the Heck Happened to Union Station? That station has basically been PennCenterized. Now I know that the main lobby is still there, but the all important concourse has been turned into office buildings. When I was there the huge, big, waiting room was deserted. Nobody used it. That's because the trains are a block away fron the main station building. Origionally the station had a second concourse building, but now its just an underground Penn Station. Its small, crowded, clousterphobic and utterly unimpressive. Amtrak didn't make things better by moving everything out of the grand hall and cramming it between the tracks. They might have hell bulldozed the whole thing for all the good the waiting rooms does now.
I was also regretting that the PRR didn't kick in more cash to have the Station names Penn Station: Chicago. I wouldn't be feeling as bad if I knew that there was a Penn Center in Illinois. Same peve goes for DC.
The congressman from New Jersey now enters a bill to rename every station, "Penn Station".
excuse me but Union Sta DC was originallly 50/50 PRR and B&O(a much classier rr IMHO) owned. In Chgo the owners were PRR, Milw AND CB&Q maybe the classiest of them all -- Zephyrs! yeah But sadly you are correct as to the disaster from the 60's The same lame real estate development morons allowed the "basementization" of the useful space such that no amount of rennovation other than eliminating the skyscraper above and the attendant suport structures will ever fix the problem. Too bad because it was so light and open feeling AND had amenities like rentable showers for passengers with short layovers but a desire to sluice off between trains. While Chgo still has stunning city architecture some of the losses have been sad.
The congressman from New Jersey now enters a bill to rename every station, "Penn Station".
Bad idea, it would trivialize the name Penn Station. New York Penn Station in its current state trivializes it enough.
Besides, would you want Grand Central to be named Penn Station?
At one time there were Penn Stations everywhere including Pittsburg and Harrisburg. I would like to have Penn Station be the railfan's version of the Hard Rock Cafe. You get like T-shirts saying Penn Station: New York or Penn Station: Chicago or Penn Station: Cleveland. I am trying to think if any other RR could/did refer to its stations in such a ubiquitious manner. Something like Pacific Station (UP SP) or Illinois (IC) Station or Chicago (CNW) Station in places that were by far not the Pacific or Illinois or Chicago.
As for Grand Central is would be bulldozed, but besides that each city would have ONE Penn Station.
The red and gold keystone logo has been preserved in various places within the "Harrisburg Transportation Center" as an homage to the PRR, which built it. The station, including the building, has not changed much from the PRR era, except for having fallen into neglect and disrepair and having subsequently been renovated nicely. The lower level beside the station tracks was turned into the bus station for both Trailways and the Hound. [The bus station was moved to another location, 7th St., in the early 80's, which turned out to be Harrisburg's version of the "New Coke" fiasco, and it was quickly moved back to the train station in favor of inter-modal convenience.] And one platform used by Amtrak (2 tracks on either side) was raised to train-door level. Tracks closest to the station have been obliterated in favor of a parking lot, and much catenary has been removed in and around the terminal. The station and the unique train-sheds have been given landmark status, so there will be no messing with it, but it's not like developers are clamoring for "air rights" in Harrisburg anyway.
P.S. Bridge piers for NY Central's thwarted "South Penn" line can still be seen in the Susquehanna River adjacent to the old Reading RR bridge. Winter ice-flows chip away more and more pieces of them every year, so they may be obscured in total shortly.
Even Newark NJ has a Penn Station. But THE Penn Station was destroyed and turned into a long-distance subway station over 35 years ago. A lot of Great ones but THE Penn Station was the grandest of them all IMHO.
Today Baltimore has a Penn Station, Trenton sort of has a Penn Station and Ptiisburg technically has a Penn Station, but trains don't stop in any of the other ones. I have a 1955 world Atlas and in the back it has detail maps of majour US cities (down to about a level of Arkon and Atlantic City). In the east coast most of the maps have a little square labeled Pennsylvania Station.
Wasn't the whole idea of a "Union Station" so that multiple railroads would use one terminal? Obviously, in Washington, both the B&O and the PRR used Union Station. If they had built two separate terminals, perhaps then it would be appropriate to name the one that served PRR as "Penn Station."
Well nobody says that the PRR could have built the station and the other RR's would have been tennants.
Fortunately or unfortunately, that's not what happened. Union Station, Washington, was not built by the PRR and leased to other railroads. It was, IIRC, a joint venture by the RRs and the feds.
IIRC, the original Penn Station in D.C. was located along the mall somewhere betw. the capitol and the Potomac; at the time, there was a canal where Constitution Avenue is. It took some political wrangling to persuade the PRR to relocate to the less-convenient present location of Union Station.
When the R-68s were first put on-line, many trains were run from the half-width cabs, with the full-width cabs being reserved for the conductor. In fact, I do remember seeing the full-width cab end of the front car facing the rear of the train on more than one consist.
As more of the R-68s joined the fleet, all of the trains were realigned to be operated from the full-width cab end.
How were these cars turned around? Does the TA maintain some sort of subway car turntable, or were the cars lifted off the tracks, turned around, and re-railed? Why were the trains allowed to be run from the half-width cabs in the first place?
Another question is about the R-68's compressed air system. When new, the R-68's air system produced two short bursts of air when it was cycling on or off. It was amusing to hear an 8-car train going "chh-CHHH!" one car at a time, in no set pattern. This system was also found on the overhauled "Green Hornet" R-10s before they went to the scrap heap.
Also, when the brakes were released, the R-68 produced a long sigh of air followed by a high-pitched whistle, which I found to be unique.
Now, because of the less-audible air system in the R-68's, and the conversion to running the trains from the full-width cab end, I see no real pleasure in riding on these once-captivating cars.
By the way, my handle "SilverFox" comes from the original name given to the overhauled cars you call "Redbirds," because of their SILVER roofs and FOX red sides.
Glad to be a part of SubTalk.
Much cooler name than Redbird. They couldn't at least call them Cardinals.
I don't know how those cars were turned around, but cars can be turned around on any line that has a loop and crossovers.
The CI terminal is one giant loop. If an R32 N train uses the outer track, the same end which is at the front of a CI bound train would be at the front of a Manhattan bound D train if the train continued past Stillwell Ave.
How were these cars turned around?
Cars get turned around in one of two ways. They either get 'looped' in a yard or they are turned on a 'wye'. For example at Concourse Yard we might run a car into Bedford Park Blvd. on C-5 track. Then reverse it into 205th St on C-2 Track and then back to Concourse Yard on C-7 track. By doing that, the consist has been turned around.
Why were the trains allowed to be run from the half-width cabs in the first place?
The R-68 was designed to operate either way. Naturally, the crews perferred the transverse cabs. It just became common practice to set up trains with the #1 cab in both T/O & C/R operating positions. Of course now that the cars are linked, there is no longer an option.
When new, the R-68's air system produced two short bursts of air when it was cycling on or off. It was amusing to hear an 8-car train going "chh-CHHH!" one car at a time, in no set pattern. This system was also found on the overhauled "Green Hornet" R-10s before they went to the scrap heap.
I don't see the question here. The blow of air that you hear are the auto-drains. Their primary function is to exhaust condensate into the atmosphere before it contaminates the air system.
Now, because of the less-audible air system in the R-68's, and the conversion to running the trains from the full-width cab end, I see no real pleasure in riding on these once-captivating cars.
With the exception of the replacement of the brake valve and the re-calibration of the 'emergency variable load valve, the R-68 brake system is essentially the same as when delivered. It should sound the same. This is by contrast to other classes of subway cars where they were delivered with Steel shoes and were later modified to accept composition shoes.
I agree that they basically sound the same today as they did in 1986. However, with all the GOH'ed older car types now sounding a lot like the R68, the R68's sound has lost it's uniqueness and that's probably why some people think they have changed. I miss the days of the Darth Vader R40/42's, the deflating balloon R32/R38 and the whistling R46. At least the R44 has retained it's flatulance sound.
There I agree with you. The R-46, when overhauled in 1992, was given the same brake package that the R-68s had 6 years earlier. Ditto for 1/2 of the R-32 fleet (in 1988/89).
09/03/2000
[At least the R44 has retained it's flatulance sound]
Listen carefully next time an R-44 brakes release. The second part of the release sounds much like the R1-9 release. Sortof an update if you will!
Bill "Newkirk"
09/03/2000
[ I miss the days of the Darth Vader R40/42's]
A ride on PATH should help you reminice. Remember the D4 compressors on the R-38's? When they would shut off, there was an unusual air sound, something like a "spinoff". I don't recall any other equipment with that type of sound. Then again, I don't recall any other equipment that had the R-46 as built "whistle" brake release.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Naturally, the crews perferred the transverse cabs.]
Why? Is it simply because there is more room? Or is there another reason? I've seen posts where railfans have described a T/O yelling at them to get away from the front window, even though it's in a 'public' area. What's it to them, anyway?
BTW, on my Metro-North trip this weekend, I heard from the engineer (are they referred to as 'T/Os' on MN?) that the next generation MUs will have full-width cabs, unfortunately, which seemed to please him as much as it bummed me out.
Why? Is it simply because there is more room? Or is there another reason?
I think room is the primary issue although I'm sure others may have differing views.
I've seen posts where railfans have described a T/O yelling at them to get away from the front window, even though it's in a 'public' area. What's it to them, anyway?
First, don't believe everything you read hear. A few months ago we had a gentleman who swore that he saw a train operator come out of his cab and threaten to have 2 youths arrested only because they were non-whites. He refused to back up his claim with any facts but did try to paint himself a hero by saying he stepped in to right the injustice. Of course, there are reasons that a train operator may not want a passenger standing by the crew door. First, the changes in light passing through the polarized glass might be distracting. Second, people lean on the glass and sometimes push open the crew door, accidentally. Then there are just some people who don't like other people watching over their shoulder while they work. Perhaps they are smoking or drinking coffeee (against the rules) and don't like being observed. Lastly, there are some motormen who are just plain nasty, like the one on the D line who slammed the crew door in my 8 year-old granddaughter's face, a few weeks ago.
If I were you, I'd report that idiot.
Oh, I think we can do better than that.
Re-assigning him to the Franklin Ave. shuttle during the overnight shift?
I think I can answer the question about the air system on the R-68s. The first 225 R-68s came with New York Air Brake RSU (Rotary Screw Unit) compressors. They made a "tch tch" sound when they activated. They also tended to leak like you wouldn't believe, if memory serves, and they were replaced at the earliest opportunity with Westinghouse Air Brake Company D-4S units -- the last 200 cars, and all R-68As, came with WABCO D-4S units.
David
The first 225 R68s "2500-2724" were the Primary Orders. The last 200 R68s "2725-2924" were the option order. They were built by different sub contractors.
running on...
or
The original order debuted on the D in October 1986. The option order debuted on the in May1987, immediatey after the N/R terminal switch in Queens.
THE R68A debuted on the northern half of the split D line in April 1988.
Just thought I'd add that.
Chris,
DID the original R-68s debut on the D line as you said? I remember the D being all R-40Ms and R-42s until the first R-68As (5000-5008) appeared in the Concourse yard in 98 or even 99, as most of the builder's plates on the R-68As suggest (I attended Bronx Science from 86-89, so I was constantly peering down at the Concourse yard cut).
As far as I remember, the original batch of 68s were initially run nearly exclusively on BMT trackage along Broadway, into Brooklyn, and to either Coney Island or Fort Hamilton on the N, R and (Broadway) D. Some of this initial batch made its way to the F line for a spell as well. These were subsequently assigned exclusively to the N and Q lines while the 68As were assigned to Concourse.
Now, the R-68/R-68A fleet is assigned in seemingly haphazard fashion across three lines: The B, D, and N.
Am I right? I don't remember fully.
I was on the first train of R-68s in revenue service, on April 16, 1986. It ran on the D. That was 12 days before the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge closed and the D was split into Concourse/Sixth Avenue and Brighton/Broadway sections.
David
Wow, I never saw any R68's until October. Must've been the first test train.
'twas indeed the test train. It left Stillwell Avenue late, and we got as far as W. 8th Street before we had a problem (with the doors). I got off at Kings Highway and went home (it was early on a Sunday morning and I had to work later that day), but some of my friends stayed on the train.
David
This is all the ways the R68A has ever been signed up. If there are any more, tell me. The homestead server is a litle slow so just hold on...
I know that either the 68 or the 68A ran on the F for a short time when they were first delivered...
Yes, some did in September and October 1987.
D 205th ST/Brighton
D Coney Island/57th Street ?
R-68s on the "D"(late nights due to G.O.s) have recently (last 3 months) been signed:
205th, Bronx
D
World Trade Center
&
205th, Bronx
D
Second Ave, Manhattan
I ride them every morning at 3 am.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do they run along 6th Ave. when going to WTC? In any case, I presume they're making all local stops.
No they run along 8th Avenue, express to 59th and then local to WTC.
Except on Mondays, local on 8th ave the whole distance to 2nd ave. Due to track work around 7th ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, and it's a split service with the change point being W4th.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 2500-2799 series debuted on the Broawday D and Q in the fall of 1986. The 2800 series debuted on the N in late spring 1987. The Sixth Ave. D used R42's almost exclusively until the R68A's showed up in the spring of 1988. I remember a newspaper article about Bronx D riders complaning they had to suffer with the older cars (the R42's assigned to this line were in awful shape, many had no lights and none had working AC) while the more affluent residenst of southern Brooklyn got the new cars.
Yes, I remember those pre-GOH R-42s well, In my nightmares. Always got a seat though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ever do 45 MPH along the CPW express tracks in a dark R42? What a rush!
Did that maaaaaaaannnnnnnnny times.
Peace,
ANDEE
That A train of slant R-40s I took on Easter Sunday in 1978 provided quite a rush, even though it was fully lit. Needless to say, the R-10s always provided a rush on that stretch. Looking back, I've ridden along that stretch on just about every piece of equipment you can think of except the R-11s, R-16s, and R-46s. The breakdown goes something like:
R-1/9 - D 3 or 4 times
R-10 - A many, many times; D once
R-27/30 D
R-32 - D
R-38 - A
slant R-40 - A at least once
R-42 - D
R-44 - A
R-68 - D
I did ride on an E train of oldtimers out to Queens with a dark first car once, on (of all days) July 1, 1968.
"Bronx D riders complaning they had to suffer with the older cars (the R42's assigned to this line were in awful shape, many had no lights and none had working AC) while the more affluent residenst of southern Brooklyn got the new cars."
Yeah, right. The D uses different equipment in the Bronx than it does in South Brooklyn!
Elias
"Chris R16" was speaking of conditions in 1986, after the Manhattan Bridge A/B tracks closed, causing D service to be split into two sections. The Bronx/Manhattan section had R-42s that were in deplorable condition, while the Manhattan/Brooklyn section was receiving then-new R-68s.
David
From April 1986 to December 1988 it did. The Brooklyn "D" ran along Broadway to 57th and 7th during this period, when the new R68's went nto service. This section got them first, leaving the 205th St to 34th St section left with awful pre-GOH R42 cars.
From April 1986 to December 1988 it did. The Brooklyn "D" ran along Broadway to 57th and 7th during this period, when the new R68's went into service. This section got them first, leaving the 205th St to 34th St section left with awful pre-GOH R42 cars.
So I was right in hearing that "tch tch" sound on the original batch of R-68s, and that this air system was replaced at a later date.
Thanks, David, for affirming this observation.
I rode on a few trains of R-68s with the half cab of the first car facing out. Nice railfan view, I must say.
Yesterday I rode the #2 out to Flatbush and looked through the Railfan Window®.
Just as you're leaving the southbound Nevins Street station, the tunnel widens a bit and you see a flight of steps, or at least a shaft, descending down. Where does it go?....
www.forgotten-ny.com
It must be the lower level at Nevins. There is a platform under the IRT platforms. I think it was for the G train...
3TM
No, it's for a connection that was never built. The station was redesigned after construction was already well underway ca. 1908 and the platform was abandoned. See Brennan's Guide to Disused and Abandoned Stations for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, Nevins was a 3 track local station (notice the now unused trackway running down the middle). The outside local tracks were added after the Clark St. tubes were opened and the IRT was extended east of the old Atlantic Ave. terminal.
Nevins was a 3 track local station
That may have been the original plan, but that wasn't what was ultimately built. Quoting from Brennan's Guide (linked in my earlier post): The main level was nearly completed with three tracks and side platforms when new plans required its conversion into four tracks with island platforms, which was accomplished by adding a track on each side and leaving a space where the center track would have been. That center trackway has never been used, just as the lower level platform was never completed. BTW, you can see the lower platform from doors in the underpass that cuts across it; the last time I was there one of them had a missing slat and you could get quite a good view.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I only saw the lower level on the southbound side. Never on the Manhattan bound side.....
3TM
Exactly, since that's where it is - outbound only.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a possible explanation for the particular design of the Nevins Street station. When the Dual Contracts of 1913 were being drawn up, the City received many proposals from the Interborough and the B.R.T. One of the proposals, if memory serves me correctly, was to re-build the Third Ave. Elevated for heavier steel subway cars and to connect them to the I.R.T.'s Brooklyn subway via the north side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge, go a short distance on Flatbush Ave., and connect to the Nevins Street station. The proposal was fought by the B.R.T. because it would have altered their track plans for DeKalb Ave. station, not to mention the loss of two tracks on the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. There is a reference to this in Cunningham and DeHarts book, "RAPID TRANSIT IN BROOKLYN". The City sided with the B.R.T. and the I.R.T. proposal was discarded. I don't know if this had anything to do with the unused Lafayette Ave. connection tunnel, which was filled in by later subway construction. Maybe someone has some info on that Lafayette Ave connection. ELKEEPER
According to an article in Sunday’s Star Ledger, Transit is moving forward with many new projects without worrying where the money will come from. Federal transit sources face drastically increased competition, Transit’s state operating budget for 2001 was cut 4% by the governor and legislature, fare increases are considered counter-productive. Transit officials say they’re dealing with it; not to worry.
Union County officials say funding for the $700 mil light rail line through Elizabeth will come through, as they’re looking for help from the private sector and the Port Authority.
Help from the Port Authority for transit? Surely you jest.
My reaction also.
New York State's third largest political party is conducting a poll on the transportation bond act at www.ipny.org. It is considering taking a position.
I was able to vote. You don't have to be a member to vote. You just click on "poll" in the main menu, then click on the pull down which leads "undecided" to get the choices.
I voted that transportation improvments are needed, but the state already has too much debt, so they should be funded by other means.
I encourage Subtalkers to vote in the poll. SOMEONE is at least thinking about an issue that concerns us.
[I encourage Subtalkers to vote in the poll. SOMEONE at least is thinking about an issue that concerns us.]
Actually, it concerns ALL residents of the State of New York (who, if it passes, will end up paying for it), whether they post here or not. However, I'll have to go back to the newspapers and read up some more before forming an opinion.
Also, could that poll possibly get more informal?! Eleven votes (as of 9:00PM on 3 September) is nowhere near anything that could be called statistically significant.
(Also, could that poll possibly get more informal?)
As far as I know, it was just put up. I'd like to try to call attention to it. The IP is the only one asking anyone's opinion.
As of 8:45 a.m. on 9/4/00, there were 15 votes tabulated, four of which favored the bond issue.
New York State's third largest political party is conducting a poll on the transportation bond act at www.ipny.org. It is considering taking a position.
Is that based on party enrollment or the result of the last election?
(New York State's third largest political party is conducting a poll on the transportation bond act at www.ipny.org. It is
considering taking a position.
Is that based on party enrollment or the result of the last election?)
I believe it is based on enrollment, but I don't know much about this sort of stuff.
IIRC the amount of votes cast at the last general election determines which parties are bigger than others. I'd guess that means for major posts such as president. That was how the Conservative Party grabbed Row C from the Liberals in the 70's. Are they still on Row C? Just curious.
(IRC the amount of votes cast at the last general election determines which parties are bigger than others. I'd guess that means
for major posts such as president. That was how the Conservative Party grabbed Row C from the Liberals in the 70's. Are
they still on Row C? Just curious.)
The Independence Party is on row C. But back to the point.
For those who haven't seen it, the IP is considering taking a position on the State Transportation Bond Act and is taking a poll at www.ipny.org. I've voted already, and anyone can. I urge everyone to cast a vote. You don't get a change to express on opinion on a transportation subject very often. I voted to fund the improvments, but NOT with more debt.
For those who haven't seen it, the Independence Party (ie. Tom Golisano for Governor in 1994 and 1998) is considering taking a position on the State Transportation Bond Act and is taking a poll at www.ipny.org. I've voted already, and anyone can. I urge everyone to cast a vote. You don't get a change to express on opinion on a transportation subject very often. I voted to fund the improvments, but NOT with more debt.
To my horror, yes votes appear to be even with nos. I'm willing to borrow to build the Second Avenue Subway, but not to study it.
The Labor Day/West Indian Day Parade will kick off tomorrow at 10am. Best transit options:
IRT: 2,3,4 trains to any stop from GAP to Utica Ave. The 4 train will be making local stops from Atlantic to Utica.
BMT: Franklin Shuttle to Botanic Gardens.
IND: D train to Prospect Park for Shuttle.
Come out and enjoy the festivities.........
3Train#2032Mike
The Eastern Parkway/ Brooklyn Museum station will be closed. NYCT also suggests avoiding the Franklin Ave IRT station(234)
Thanx, subway-buff. I knew you would have the correct info. I will make my way out to the parade now that the rain has ceased. From looking out my window, the 3 train was already packed with passengers heading to the parade. This is at Penn Ave........
3TM
Also, passengers may want to avoid Utica Ave as well. It have been by personal accounts ( used to live by the Utica IRT station) and newspaper accounts that this is where a lot of people gather. It is of course, where the parade begins.......
3TM
I just got my new CTA Smart Card a few weeks ago and have to say that it is really neat. For all of the stupid things that the CTA has done in the past, they have always had fare collection technology at the highest level, and it will be pretty hard to top this.
I didn't realize for the first few days that I had it, that you don't even need to take it out of your wallet. After removing it and putting it back like I was used to with the Transit Card, the Agent at Addison St. on the Red Line stopped my the other day after entering. I thought, oh no, did I drop or loose something, or something dumb like that. He just said, "hey, so you know for next time, you don't even need to take it out of your wallet." I said thanks and walked up to the platform. I though, no way, it can't be that cool, but he was right!!
For example, I have a tri-fold wallet, with my Smart Card & Metra 10 ride ticket in one of the pockets, along with many other cards & money in the back. When I want to add value to the Smart Card, I just press "C" on the Transit Card Machine, add value, wave my folded wallet in front of the Smart Card pad, take it away, take the money out of my wallet I want to add, put it in the machine, hold up my folded wallet again, and after a second or two it says Thank You. I then press "B", check value, just to make sure it was added, wave my folded wallet again, and the value is shown as being on the Smart Card.
To enter, I just hold my folded wallet up to the pad on front of the turnstile, the enter light comes on along with the beep, put my wallet back in my pocket and enter. I didn't realize until I was comparing how long it took me to enter compared to other people with transit cards, that it really does save you time. Only about 5 seconds or less, but when you are racing to catch a train at the last minute, it does really help.
The only downfall, is the $5.00 cost of the card, which comes with no value on it. You then have to add value at a Transit Card Machine. Many people won't buy these just because of the cost. If they are successful with the pilot program of them, then hopefully, the CTA might consider free advertising for the company that makes them for the cards for free in return. It does make sense though, the card does have a computer chip in it, and like everything else these days, nothing is cheap or free.
I can only recommend to any of you other Chicago Sub-Talkers who don't have a card, to get one. You can purchase them on their web site at TransitChicago.com or in person weekdays from 9-5 (I Think) at their offices inside the Merchandise Mart.
Any of your thoughts on it or any fare collection technology in other places similar would be appreciated.
BJ
Sounds pretty much like the smart card they introduced here in DC in 1999. The $5 cost of the card isn't bad. The only negative at present is the buses aren't equipped for them, so you still have to pay separately.
I just got my CTA SmartCard a few weeks ago but I didn't use it yet. I use SmarTrip here in D.C. It has the same features as Chicago like being able to register it and getting a extra ride if you don't have enough money. It costs $5 too but it costs $10 to make each card. It makes it a lot faster getting thru the faregates by waving it over the target instead of inserting a farecard in the faregate and waiting for it to come out.
I just got my CTA SmartCard a few weeks ago but I didn't use it yet. I use SmarTrip here in D.C. It has the same features as Chicago like being able to register it and getting a extra ride if you don't have enough money. It costs $5 too but it costs $10 to make each card. It makes it a lot faster getting thru the faregates by waving it over the target instead of inserting a farecard in the faregate and waiting for it to come out.
I would like to share about the smart card technology using in Hong Kong. The card, called "Octopus", is a smart card for public transportation. The card has been introduced since 1998. It can be used on railway (KCR), light rail (LRT), subways (MTR include Airport Railway), buses (operated by 3 major bus cimpany) and ferries.
This card is really convenient for us. The deposit(not the cost include the cost HK$60(US$7.7)which is gain from the intrest of the deposit) is HK$50 (US$6.4), and value instored vary when you buy different kinds of cards, i.e. HK$20(US$2.6) for children and elders, HK$50(US$6.4) for students and HK$100(US$12.8) for adults. The difference betwwen Adult card and other kinds are the fare. Childern(below 12) and elders(above 65) pay half fare in all kinds of transport and student pay half fare in MTR. The value can add to HK$1000(US$128) in the Value Add Machine.
A "dod" sound can be heard when you get across the fare collection control. As same as the CTA Smart Card, it is a non-connective chip card which can detect your card in your wallet or your bag. As this is a bit pineeor, when you add the value of your card, you have to put your card in it. besides that, most of the application(even adding vaue with the staff aid) just need to wave or place on the sensor.
I didn't even know that D.C. or Hong Kong also had these cards. They are very cool.
Do the new Turnstiles that are now standard in NYC have a "Smart Card" reader on the front of them?? They received the Magnetic Strip Card reading turnstiles about the same time we did here in Chicago, and ours came with the readers already installed in them. The CTA just had them hidden.
They had a blue circle on front of the turnstiles where the Smart Card reader is at, they just said CTA in the CTA's logo style for the first few years. Now that they introduced it, they put Smart Card Reader Stickers on all of these circles. Same thing with all the squares on all of the Transit Card Machines.
I guess the elderly were using them in a pilot program for reduced fare riders when the new equipment originally arrived. That's why they decided to debut the Transit Card first and wait a couple years with the Smart Card. It makes it a lot easier for the elderly if the pass recognizes and tells the collection equipment to charge the reduced fare and deducts the reduced fare all in one shot, instead of two. Before they had to insert a reduced fair permit which told the equipment to only charge reduced fair (.75 instead of 1.50), then they had to install a reduced fare card with the actual monetary value on it that was deducted. This was a lot of effort for elderly passengers to do and sometimes causes lines and waits.
NYC's Metro Card readers are easier to use with the swipe and go technology then our insert, remove, and walk through readers here in Chicago. You just had to make sure it said "go" and not walk into a hard turnstile bar. I saw many people do this on my last vacation in NYC this past Spring.
I think they would be a good addition for NYC, just don't know if their equipment is capable of handeling the "Smart Cards". They just replaced them on the entire system to handle Magnetic Stip Cards, it would cost a lot to change all of them again!! NYC has better things to do with it's money. Although the people here on this board think it could be used much better then it currently is used. I guess I think that way about the CTA sometimes also.
BJ
They can replace token slots with them. The turnstiles are already digital.
Vending Machines have a strange round mirrory thing some people think may be a camera.
It's the same mfg. at Washington D.C., Chicago, Hong Kong & NYC.
I obtained a sample of the Washington (SmarTrip) & Chicago(GO Card) cards. I also have a Hong Kong "Discovery Bay" hard plastic card, but I don't think it's the smart card.
I've also heard that NYC is THINKING about smart cards here ... probally waiting to see how they do in Wash & Chicago, then they'll invent them here :-( The newest reads REQUIRE you to put the card into a port.
Mr t__:^)
Discovery Bay plastic card is a magnatic strip card. The smart card using in Hong Kong has the word "Octopus" on the left hand corner with the Chinese name(Pls don't ask me what is the meaning of it) and the background of the card is the infinitive sign.
While riding to and from a party today, I made the following observations. The big screens are in live testing on the red line. The only interesting facts to note about them are that if they are delays, they are of very little use. There was a delay in the opposite direction of where I was traveling and the signs were all blank. Also, they can't display how long a wait if the train is very far away. I observed this at White Flint while waiting for the Glenmont bound train. At Grosvenor if the train is heading out of service, it reads:
LIVE TEST
This train
out of service.
Please stand back.
3112 and 3113 have 2 emergency call buttons on each end and a glow in the dark panel with the car number. 3113 has a sick doorbell and so does 2015.
Hah! That's good stuff! I thought only our lovable R46's had sour bells (you should hear the one in R46 #6119 - UGH!) Was the little recorded voice "sour" as well? (Dawwwz cloooosinggggggg).....
wayne
I noticed those signs last week in my travels around the District on Metro. It seemed that every message had the 'test test test' first line followed by information which was useful (i.e. next train info at Rosslyn, King St and L'Enfant (Green/Yellow level outbound). The one at King also gave updates on the next train from about 8 minutes prior to arrival up until the train was in the station. I suppose at the junction stations this is useful especially to those who may be unfamiliar with Metro and the different lines, since the train destination signs are easy to miss and the PA's aren't always the best.
One touch which I found different and interesting, outside of the mellow 'doors opening/doors closing' message, was the one that asked that passengers please stand clear of the closing doors. Is this automatically tied into the door circuits or does the operator have this one at his/her option? (When I heard it, it always seemed to be after the second attempt to close doors.)
It seems to come on when the operator hits door open and door close very quickly. If the door is opened and closed after a longer wait, it does doors closing.
"Please stand clear of the doors. Thank You" is said if the doors have to be opened after the close button has been pushed but the doors didn't make it to closing.
I always thought that the closing bells were enough. Then they added the voice saying "Doors Closing." Next they may add "About to announce doors closing." :-)
Doors closing works fine, just the chime isn't.
I too noticed the two buttons on 3112, and I was wondering if they will be doing that on all cars to prevent false alarms and so they can be seen in a dark car (I guess that the intercoms are battery operated). As for the signs I have found that they are about a minute or so off and they do not always display correct info. Case in point: a couple days ago at the Faragut North station, in the Silver Spring - Glenmont direction, the signs stated that the next train was out of service, when in fact it was not. Later when I came back through there it had not been fixed. I don't know if WMATA has worked out the software glitches that have been plaguing the signs for the six months since they have been installed. Also, does anyone know the status of the relay replacement that will allow the trains to resume ATO?
...so they can be seen in a dark car...
Are dark cars in DC as common as they are in NY? Every day I almost always see at least one car (usually a pair) with the lights on emergency, yet the A/C is on.
I can just imagine the intercom calls now:
Hello, train person?
What?
There's no light here.
Oh.
Just thought you should know. I wouldn't have said anything, but all I could see was the intercom.
Actualy I have only been on one dark car (one car only, and it flipped people out), and it was the same day I saw the imtercoms, although not on the same car. Most of the problems in WDC have to do with the doors and the sensors connected to them.
They do lockout individual cars if there's a problem with its systems. I think the posting refers to visibility should a train become disabled in a tunnel and the lighting goes out.
Well I finished my MFL diagrams and Dave uploaded them. There are a few slight mistakes regarding signal aspects, but I'll send out an update at some point. Sorry to all your webTV users, but they are contained in a zip file. All 13 or so diagrams are like 106k zipped. I hope you enjoy them and PLEASE send me feedback.
MFL Track and Signal diagrams
This will make a great historical reference, now that it looks like they've started installing the new cab-signal system. I noticed on Saturday that they've posted special weekend schedules for the next two months for "track and signal work" on the east end of the line.
I made a few errors regarding the interlocking signals at Erie-Torresdale and for signal 12LA at 69th St. (I looked at pictures on this site) and I'll iron them out before the signals are all gone and people have to rely on these drawings.
1. At both 15th and 69th Streets, there are billboards about the Automatic Train Control project, the 69th Street one talking only about federal funding, but the 15th Street one has news of weekend closures. For anyone who wanted to take a weekend to ride the Frankford el this fall, they will be unable to do so. All September weekends beginning September 8-9 will have a Frankford el closure from Frankford to Spring Garden, and all October weekends will have an el closure to 5th Street, for the ATO project, and trackwork (I do not see where trackwork needs to be done, though). I presume they are not doing Frankford Terminal, since it still needs to be rebuilt. From 8PM Friday to 5AM Monday is the times.
2. Besides regular shuttle buses, SEPTA will be running an express shuttle, stopping at all corners from City Hall to 2nd and Market, then taking I-95 to bridge street, stopping again and Bridge and Torresdale, then again at Frankford Terminal. If this shuttle is faster than the el would be, it would become a sad day in the history of Philadelphia transit.
3. No news about the Market Street el reconsctruction.
4. No news about the doors or the seats.
Is it like the Cab Signaling on the P&W (Rt 100) or will it be like a PATCO ATO. What do they plan to do w/ all the signals?
From what I've heard about the ATO it will be more of a cab signalling project than anything else. The system will permit the removal of wayside signals and the start of a CBTC-type operation with provision for ATO but don't look to ATO just yet.
I'm not sure where the trackwork is on the el. This same closure has been in effect off and on over the past 2 years. I thought it had more to do with third rail replacement than anything else but I haven't heard any details on it.
The express shuttle bus (usually served by articulated buses on very close headways) has also been in use during el closures and, unfortunately, can be faster than the el itself. One variable in the el's favor is the unpredictability of I-95. Right now there is a significant project underway on the section of highway between Girard and Allegheny which has major impacts on traffic at nights and on weekends, so the bus may get delayed considerably or maybe even use Aramingo Avenue instead of 95. With the peppy new articulated buses available for this service (in place of the troubled Volvos) the ride will be fast if traffic permits.
Reports from 'Cinders' this month indicate that other M-4 problems are either solved or in the process of being worked out.
Last I heard, SEPTA is preparing to put the first Market St contract out for bids within the next month or so (this will be for the portion from 69th St to 63rd St, encompassing mostly surface running but also the large bridge over Cobbs Creek). Another contract for the column foundations and stubs (for the new single column supports) should be right behind.
How can I get copies of CINDERS
THank you
Steve
Join the Philadelphia Chapter of the NRHS.
Write to:
Philadelphia Chapter, NRHS
PO Box 7302
Philadelphia, PA 19101-7302
ask for a membership application.
If you already belong to the NRHS in another Chapter, you may join another as just a member of that Chapter.
I belong to the Baltimore Chapter (and the National) and a number of my Chapter friends belong to several other locals as well.
thank you
As Bob mentioned, it's really just cab singnaling, not ATO. They're also installing new "traction power return systems" to work with the M-4's regenerative braking. They've been working on new substations, including at Frankford and at the 40th St portal, for a while now. I assume the track work is in relation to that.
'Cinders' (Phila NRHS newsletter) reports that the M-4's are finally beginning to act like real railcars with MDBF at 60K miles over the past few months. Of course, Adtranz has had to make many modifications at the tune of nearly $100 M lost on the contract. I wonder if Adtranz will remain in the railcar business? Who knows...
I had heard separately that the SEPTA operating staff is finally pleased with the cars. Regardless, SEPTA expects a 40-year service life from them, so they're here for a while.
subway-buff and I were riding on a northbound "C" train Saturday; a consist of eight R38 cars (we were in the middle of the train, probably about the third car, it was #4066). We noticed a very LOUD whining sound, almost like a roar, which made it impossible to hold a conversation and was quite unpleasant to the ear. I haven't heard a sound like that (well, at least not THAT loud), so I'm wondering what might have caused it. The train did not exhibit any mechanical problems and moved through Cranberry Tube at about 40MPH.
thanks
Wayne
09/03/2000
Could that be the R-38 trainset with AC traction motors?
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a distinct possibility, Bill. I had forgotten about those cars. All I can say was this train was EXTREMELY loud and it wasn't coming from the wheels.
wayne
The R38 A/C propulsion test train has large red rectangular stickers under the numberboards.
Maybe that was the ghost of the R-10s.:-)
Was the sound present when the car was stopped in the station
as well? Air conditioning compressors sometimes make a roaring
sound. Some cars have PA problems and the PA emits a constant
squeal.
Was it coming from the PA speakers? Sometimes the DC/DC converters have problems and bleed a 400Hz squeal into the PA.
Well today I went for a ride on the #7 train and noticed that the R-33S cars have woken up and re-assumed their righteous position as the 3rd/9th car of the #7 trains.
At Times Square, I was the only one in the single car and I was standing near the door. The motorman was walking by and saw me in there, asked me "You're riding in this car? The other ones are cooler!"
He said it in a friendly way, so I said that I was a transit buff and enjoyed those cars.
Great, that means the noce, clear-windowed singles we had for the fantrip are back in the pool and probably messed up by now. Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.
Looks like Labor Day weekend brought with it 11-car 7 trains. I noticed them on Saturday. Didn't ride it on Saturday, but didn't mind boarding 9333 this morning. They're nice and warm all year round. It was better than waiting for it in that relatively cold weather going on now.
The MNR Harlem and New Haven Lines share tracks between Grand Central and Woodlawn Stations. So why is it that New Haven Line trains only stop at the Fordham station and not the others (Melrose, Tremont, Gardens, etc.) when they very well could? All trains stop at East Harlem/125th, so I'm not counting that.
The same situation exists at Harmon Cove station with the Bergen County and Pascack Valley lines. Pascack Valley trains pass the HC station, but none stop there.
WHY?
The same situations may exist on the LIRR but I'm not aware of them.
Must be a carry-over from many moons ago when the Harlem was NY Central and The New Haven line was the New Haven. I can't remember any New Haven trains making any stops in the Bronx but guess Fordham has been made a New Haven stop for the bus connections. That line was New York Central country and the New Haven only had trackage rights into GCT so I suppose the NY Central took all the traffic for itself. So the situation remains almost the same years later under MTA. I can't think of any other reasons besides "that's the way we always did it".
May I suggest that there could be two other reasons why this phenomenon persists?
1) Commuters from CT (which state pays for the NH trains) want to get to GCT ASAP and don't give fig for the BX.
2) Politicians in CT (rightly or wrongly) believe that the immidiately preceding statement is true.
The New Haven, Like the rest of Metro North, the LIRR and NJT all run express trains in and out of the city, and are not rapid transit lines serving the city. Some may travel as far as New Haven before making their first stop. I know that the LIRR does this, as I used to ride a train that made Merrick its first stop, and Wantaugh its last stop.
The Fordam stop is for the convience of people wishing to travel between the Bronx and CT.
While I have always thought that the TA should make subway service available on the Metro-North lines in the Bronx, I also think that the commuter trains should come in without making any of these stops.
Finally, the price of riding MN trains from the bronx would be quite a bit higher than the subway, which means that there may not be all that much demand for such service.
Elias
MNRR Hudson Line
Monthly Commutation fare between Harlem-125th St. and GCT: $94
Monthly Commutation fare between Bronx (Morris Hts., Univ. Hts., Marble Hill, Spuyten Duyvil, & Riverdale) & GCT: $108
MTA New York City Transit
30-Day Unlimited Ride Metrocard: $63
You tell me. Are they trying to discourage use of MNRR for Bronx-Manhattan commutation or not?
Looks to me like a higher price for a superior service.
No different than the nonsense that goes on in Queens with the L.I.R.R.
EXAMPLE, $103.00 monthly Woodside to NYP.
Peace,
ANDEE
(So why is it that New Haven Line trains only stop at the Fordham station and not the others (Melrose, Tremont, Gardens, etc.) when they very well could?)
Connecticut residents do not want to provide any services for New Yorkers in general, and Bronx residents in particular. At Fordham, the southbound trains will let people off (perhaps traveling Bronx-Connecticut) but not on (Bronx-Manhattan). Vice-versa going north. Of course, Connecticut residents are allowed to ride the subway.
Many better off Bronx residents would choose to pay for a premium service, since some may want to be separated from the very poor people further south, and nearly all would like to get off that packed Lex line. If I lived in Bedford Park or Woodlawn, I might take the subway myself, but I'd spring for Metro North for my wife, so she wouldn't have to deal with that packed in unpleasant ride.
East Bronx Metro North service would be a winner for that reason.
The Pascack line trains should stop at HC, if only so that a poor misguided soul who gets on the wrong train has a chance at getting home without paying an assload of money for a cab (The Bergen line is two way, the Pascack is not).
The LIRR has similar situations, such as:
Long Island City/Hunterspoint trains do not stop at Woodside, Forest Hills, or Kew Gardens. The same with diesel trains out of Penn. This dooms passengers at those three stops to never get direct trains into diesel territory.
Floral Park has platforms for direct trains from the main line, but I think only one inbound train a day uses it (no outbound), so passengers going between the Hempstead branch and the Ronkonkoma, Port Jeff, and Oyster Bay lines must cross another fare zone into Jamaica before getting to their train (costing more money).
Many Montauk trains use the Main Line, but only 2 outbound actually stop at Mineola, and one of those 2 at Hicksville, and only one inbound hits those stops. Service is so infrequent that punching 'Babylon' from Mineola on a TVM gives you a 'Via Jamaica' ticket, someone who regularly uses that service says he has to punch 'Huntington' to get a correct ticket.
Has anybody every associated any song or other music with certain trains, buses or other transit scenes or vehicles? I have. It may sound wierd, but here's a list of the ones I can think of off-hand:
"Sun Goddess" (Ramsey Louis/Earth Wind & Fire) - IRT lines in the Bronx
"Golden Lady" (Stevie Wonder) - IRT Lines in the Bronx
"I'm Gonna Love You Just A Little More, Baby" (Barry White) - Staten Island Ferry
"Never Never Gonna Give You Up" (Barry White) - Staten Island Ferry
"My Cherie Amour" (Stevie Wonder) - PCC cars in Boston
"Careless Whisper" (George Michael) - long-distance bus trip
"Give Me The Night" (George Benson) - TA RTS bus
"After The Love Has Gone" (Earth Wind & Fire) - Septa Regional train
Yes, this is the type of music I, a 17-year old, listens to.
Many of my 1950's rock & roll and rhythm and blues songs, actually up to about 63, reminded me of train rides on various pieces of NYCT, mostly a IRT; a couple reminded me of CTA south side el and one, the State St. subway. Try "I Wonder Why" by Dion & Belmonts...now listen and think hard! The 7th Ave. express in the High-V/Low-V days between 96th and 72nd!. Guess you'd have to have been there to know what I mean, I have many like that but too many to mention.
38 Special: "Back Where You Belong", video features Kawasaki "B-4" Broad Street Subway train.
Well, since we're including the videos, the video of Joan Osborne's One of Us was filmed around Coney Island, with several shots of the el in the background.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hong Kong MTR trains were in a video by a Chinese pop group Beyond, the song "I miss you" (Mandarin).
I'm turning 18 in a few months and I listen to music stranger than that:)
"Sussudio" by Phil Collins on the NJT NE Corridor Line, especially as you get closer to NYC.
The midi of the song plays on 5 pages of my website.
Hey, I'm 16 and have over 150 Motown CDs. It's my other big hobby, and I've got a few transit associated songs...
"Say You" by The Temptations... Grand Central Terminal
"You've Really Got A Hold On Me" by The Jackson 5... Roosevelt Ave. terminal station
"Too Busy Thinking About My Baby" by Jimmy Ruffin... that picture of the R40 Slant next to the R16 on the Culver Shuttle
LIRR approaching East River tunnels-Dave Koz "That's the way I feel about you"
E,F Queens Blvd Express-MLTR "That's why you Go Away"
Manhattan Bridge-R.E.M. "At my Most beautiful"
IRT 4,5 lines between 42nd and 86th Debarge "All This Love"
LIRR express between Mineola and Jamaica, Glen Frey "I've Got Mine"
6TH ave IND 34TH to W4TH dash, Mike + the Mechanics "Another Cup of Coffee"
LIRR between Jamaica and Rockville Centre, Atlantic Starr "I'll Remember You"
For me, buses don't bring up nearly as much emotion as trains.
well it's now labor day... officially a day to honor the labors of working men, women, and children in this country... i think we should also include the poorly paid working men, women, and children in the "3rd world countries" whose labors have contributed to our high standard of living...
we should certainly give thanks to those men and women who work on this very day to transport us from place to place, both in operations and maintenance of the system... perhaps give thanks to the very subway cars and buses whose daily labors are taken for granted...
and then also consider how our own working lives can be a blessing to those we serve and to ourselves...
in a larger sense, there is the work of our spiritual lives in discovering and realizing our life's purpose...
with all this in mind, may we all travel safely and with grace today and on everyday of our lives...
i also would hve to include the ""workfare"" or WEP or Gain workers
as well thankz ...
I suppose that does not include Salaam Allah who seems to be feeding of the fruits of our labors. Otherwise, I agree totally.
fruts of waht labors ? my people built america & it was stolen from them !! ( black & american indian ) who worked harder than we did ?
So now you're aligned with the American Indian. Last week it was the hispanics. Next week it'l be the lesbian eskimos. The fact is, Salaam, your arguments are wearing thin. Even among your own, it's starting to be a big "NO SALE". Here in the Big Apple, the "Million Youth March", led by the super-racist Kalid Muhammad, fell 999,700 youths short. However, if you want to talk about what your people have built, look at Brownsville 50 years ago and look at it now.
Next week it'l be the lesbian eskimos.
Ha!!!!!!!!! Funny.
Here in the Big Apple, the "Million Youth March", led by the super-racist Kalid Muhammad, fell 999,700 youths short.
He is indeedy. Full of hate, attracts so few.
mr dude you are so full of pure bullshit that you dont know your head from your ass !! ( the best way that can be told )
Oh, and what did I say exactly that you disagree with. Only 300 miscreants (perhaps 350) showed up to hear the racist clap-trap from that chicken-shit kalid. As for you, you've aligned yourself with hispanics and now with American (native) americans. Can't your group stand alone or do you need legitimate groups to prop up your weak-kneed bretherend? Come on salaam - let's hear some truth come out of that garbage can you call a brain.
If you don't like to hear the truth, then by all means, skip my posts you racist jackass. I'd love to see you struck by lightning but it would be a waste of a good bolt. Let me know when you'll be in town next - please!!!
I would be grateful for any insight to the following questions...
1) Do all the trackless trolley routes run on the weekend?
2) What are the best trackless trolley photostops?
3) Where are the TT garages? Is one at Frankford?
4) Are any of the trackless trolley routes in neighbourhoods that would not be freindly towards a Canadian railfan?
5) Where are the best photo spots on the subway surface routes?
6) where is the trolley carhouse?
7) Where is Pat's steaks? It is accessible by transit?
8) If I wanted to take the train to Newark for a NCS ride - what is the best route? How long is the trip?
Thanks for any info.
8) If I wanted to take the train to Newark for a NCS ride - what is the best route? How long is the trip?
The cheapest route (and probably the best) is SEPTA from 30th Street or one of the other stations in Central Philadelphia to Trenton, change for NJ Transit to Newark. You're looking at about 2 1/2 hours each way, including a short layover in Trenton, and a round trip cost of a little over $20 on the weekend ($10.50 RTX fare on NJT, $10.00 on SEPTA). Make sure you purchase your tickets in advance from the TVMs - the fare penalty is $2 each way on SEPTA and $3 on NJT if you buy on the train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My advice for the cheapest methood:
Buy an NJT round trip ticket to Trenton, NOT Philly (even though you can).
At Trenton, buy a ONE WAY to Philly ($5).
In Philly, buy a day pass for $5, I usually get mine at 30st subway station.
If you'll notice, the day pass is good for unlimited rides on the Subways, trolleys, and short bus rides. Its also good for one free regional rail trip.
Use the free regional rail trip to get to Trenton, and the other half of the round trip to get to Newark.
Congradulations, you have just gotten free rides all day on the city transit, since the day pass costs the same as the Philly-Trenton ticket.
Hadn't thought about that... but you're right. Of course, he's starting in Philly, so he should buy the day pass first.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1) Do all the trackless trolley routes run on the weekend?
Yes, but at longer headways than the week, of course.
2) What are the best trackless trolley photostops?
I couldn't say really because there aren't any very picturesque locations along any of the lines. But the 29 and 79 stop at Broad Street and stop at the BSS. The NE lines(59, 66 and 75) stop at Frankford Terminal and Maragret-Orthodox(the penultimate station) so there are some good pictures there.
3) Where are the TT garages? Is one at Frankford?
There is one in South Philly at 20th and Pollock(near I-76)because that network does not connect to the buses in the Northeast. The others are in the NE.
4) Are any of the trackless trolley routes in neighbourhoods that would not be freindly towards a Canadian railfan?
Yes. Some parts of Frankford can be less than welcoming after dark. The South Philly routes(mainly the 29 west of Broad) run through some of Philly's roughest areas.
5) Where are the best photo spots on the subway surface routes?
At the portal at 40th and Baltimore. The rest are really a matter of opinion. You can get a good picture just about anywhere.
6) Where is the trolley carhouse?
At around 42nd and Baltimore. There used to be one at 59th and Vine but it was partially gutted by a fire a few years ago and served the now bus-run 15, which is in the process of being converted back into a light rail line for 2002.
7) Where is Pat's Steaks? It is accessible by transit?
12th and Passyunk, 2 blocks west of the Snyder station of the BSS.
Some of the trackless lines operate as buses on the weekends. It's been an operational problem for a while and it seemed to be solved but now it's happening again. This is particularly evident on the 29 and 79 (South Phila).
A good spot to photograph TT's in South Phila is at the west end of 29, which is an off-street 'loop' at 33rd & Dickinson Streets. Good photos of Frankford Yard can also be had from the El platform and from the surface right in front of the yard. The north end of 66 has a similarly nice off-street 'loop' which is always busy and is good for picture taking.
The only TT depot in the Northeast is at Frankford.
Another good spot for trolley photos is 49th & Woodland, where 11 and 36 join/diverge. The Woodland Shop is also at this location and is a good spot to get photos of cars in the outdoor yard. There is no carhouse at 42nd & Baltimore. The Callowhill barn, at 58th & Callowhill, no longer houses trolleys but some may return with the revitalization of route 15 (although there are rumors that Callowhill may close with a new West Phila depot possibly in the works...).
Pat's Steaks is at the 'triangle' formed by 9th, Passyunk and Wharton Streets. You can get there by bus (47 on 7th & 8th, 47m (northbound only) on 9th, 23 on 11th & 12th). You can also walk from Ellsworth-
Federal station on the Broad Street subway (go 5 blocks east on Federal to 9th and one block south on 9th). You can also 'railfan' route 29 and get off at 9th, walking north 4 blocks from Morris (eastbound) or 3 blocks from Tasker (westbound) on 9th. Geno's, diagonally across the street, has a better sandwich, though.
Don't forget to get a Pat's King of Steaks T-shirt. Also check out both Pat's and Geno's web sites.
Thank you to all who responded to my post.
More questions have come to mind.
Is the Route 15 restroation a go?
Has funding been dedicated?
New cars ordered?
What is te time frame for the opening?
Is SEPTA planning to get rid of the trackless trolleys soon?
Construction has started on the Route 15 revitalization (at least the first phase - track, paving and power). New traffic signals (perhaps the second phase) are being designed. Don't expect much, though, since there will be only a few stretches of 'separated' R/W and even this will only be striped. About $37 million will be spent, most of it for power-related items, since much of the feeder and electrical network is inadequate (when K-cars were assigned to the line a couple of summers ago, when Route 10 was down due to construction, service had to be curtailed at Cumberland Loop since the power distribution system north/east of there couldn't support operation of air conditioned cars).
Work is supposed to be completed in fall '02. Whether service will resume then is still up in the air. SEPTA has tried to get bids for 12 articulated cars (yes, 12!), low floor of some sort, which would be used on Route 13 and displace 15-18 K-cars for Route 15 service. After 3 attempts, the bids are still too high (and, the last time, SEPTA in its infinite wisdom asked for quotes for 12 cars with an option for 60-70 more). There are some rumors that about 20 old PCC's still sitting at Midvale Depot (they haven't been sold off yet and are in very poor shape) may be extensively rehabbed, possibly with low floor center doors, and put in service on the new 15. (One of the flaws of the restoration of 15 is that the 20-year-old K's would provide service. This is OK but there is no provision for accessible service since the K's don't offer it. SEPTA is skirting the issue as much as possible, even to the point of noting that the current buses on the line aren't accessible either, so the service wouldn't be any worse!) The circus continues...
For about the past 5 years, all indications from SEPTA were that the TT network was probably going to disappear once the AMG's were life expired (and they are celebrating their 21st birthdays - hard to believe). Strangely enough, in its last budget, SEPTA requested funding for 60 new TT's and is thinking once again about expansion of the network, which might necessitate retention of some of the AMG's. The on-again, off-again Route 66 extension to Franklin Mills Mall might be the first part of this program, and a consolidation of the Route 53 north of Windrim Ave with existing Route 75 could warm up once again.
6) Where is the trolley carhouse?
There is also a carhouse at Elmwood and Island Rd for the Rt. 36. Several PCC cars as well as modern LRVs are stored there.
Elmwood Depot, at Elmwood Avenue and Island Road serves all subway-surface streetcar operations, not just Route 36.
I might point out that SEPTA is somewhat ambivalent towards railfans. Some employees are downright hostile, and SEPTA's Police force can be very heavy handed. All SEPTA Depots and shop facilities are fenced and marked NO TRESPASSING.
If you conduct yourself professionaly and avoid the "foamer" mode you will get a better reception.
If you bring a video camera, you can stand right next to the operator and video tape the entire subway part of the Subway Surface lines. And as long as you are in Phila, you might as well take the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford lines. A good meal can be gotten at the Melrose Diner and Broad and Snyder Avenues.
If you bring a video camera, you can stand right next to the operator and video tape the entire subway part of the Subway Surface lines. And as long as you are in Phila, you might as well take the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford lines. A good meal can be gotten at the Melrose Diner at Broad and Snyder Avenues.
If you bring a video camera, you can stand right next to the operator and video tape the entire subway part of the Subway Surface lines. And as long as you are in Phila, you might as well take the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford lines. A good meal can be gotten at the Melrose Diner at Broad St. and Snyder Avenue.
Also a Peter Witt in operating condition, used on charters.
As I recall from my once frequent BOS-NYC commutes, there are no storage lay-up tracks at Bridgeport. I'm remembering yards at Norwalk and Stamford, so I would guess that any train originating east of Norwalk would come out of New Haven....Am I correct?
There are layup yards 1 or 2 miles east of the station. They are before the bascule draw but after the draw over the Housatonic and Naugatuck Jct. They are directly north of Exit 30 on I-95 and there's a Phaze Break there as well.
I assume a Phaze Break is not a restaurant?
A Phaze Break is a section of overhead wire that can be switched off incase the 2 AC power supplies become out of phaze. From my experiance is it usually active because when the train passes the HEP goes out. There is another south of Stamford.
So, then, there are no deadheads from New Haven in the AM..?
I see a deadhead going toward Stamford almost every morning in the 5:10 to 5:25 time frame. The length varies from 2 - 12 cars.
Of course I can't tell if it came from Bridgeport or New Haven !!
Have a nice day !!
There is no yard at Norwalk. Only Stamford,Bridgeport and New Haven.
Two pocket tracks at South Norwalk though. They can not hold a full trainset, I don't know how many cars they could hold.
I used to see 2-car Budd car sets on them quite frequently. Presumably they were for runs up to Danbury.
The track on the eastbound side can hold 2 cars. The one on the westbound can hold 3 or 4. The are for the South Norwalk to Danbury runs.
The track on the eastbound side can hold 2 cars plus the locomotive. The one on the westbound can hold 3 or 4 plus the locomotive. The are for the South Norwalk to Danbury runs, which are not electric yet (they want to re-electricfy the line).
How is Penn Station interlocking controlled? Are there still manned towers at both ends, or is it some centralized NX system? Is it combined with Sunnyside?
There were originly 4 towers in Penn Station:
A: West Throat
KN: LIAR Yard
C: LIAR East River throat
JO: PRR East River throat
On the other side of the East River there are 4 towers:
F: Eastern mouth of East River tubes and entrance to sunnyside yard
HAROLD: LIAR/NYC Connecting RR junction
R: East Sunnyside Yard
Q: West Sunnyside Yard
In 1994 all 4 Penn Station towers, F interlocking and GATE and (just recently) PEHLAM BAY were put under control the the Penn Station Control Centre. The PSCC is loacted in the New York Amtrak CETC office just west of Penn Station. The PSCC is run on a UNIX machine (Telnet to CETC...just joking) because the LIAR commmissioned it and did not like the Amtrak Tandem computer system. The LIAR also required that a massive "hard-wired" board be installed in the basement of the CETC centre incase of massive comouter failure. However even w/ that the PSCC does not count as an interlocking tower. West of Penn Station the PSCC controls BERGEN, PORTAL and SWIFT interlockings and i would assume the new Secaucas Connection.
The 4 Penn Station towers are still in Penn Station, but I have had no time to snoop around and see if the interlocking machines are still in place.
From my records I belive that the last place where a terminal complex is controled by a traditional Interlocking Machine (I believe that K in DC is a modern machine, Chicago is now a control centre and PENN is now CTEC 5) is BROAD tower in Philly for SEPTA 30th St. and Suburban Station.
Thanks! I figured it would be you that would answer.
PS: Both R and Q towers in Sunnyside are still manned and under the control of the yardmaster. They both retain their US&S machines.
As you all know betwen 65 Street & 36 Street, the E & the F leave the G & R to their 3 2-track stops underneath Broadway. I think I saw somewhere that the express tunnels undernearth Northern Blvd between Broadway & 36 Street. Any truth to this?
Yes. Look at the track maps on this site (here's the small version of the one you want specifically: small Queens 1).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nooo... Jorge meant to ask was, are there express tracks under the G/R tracks when they seperate from the E/F tracks.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
correction.
Nooo... Jorge meant to ask was, are there express tracks under the G/R tracks when they seperate from the E/F tracks.
No, that's not what he meant to ask, but is it what you are asking? There are no express tracks with the local tracks used for the G and R in this area, only the tracks under Northern Boulevard used for the E and F.
Mark
Actually, what anan & Mark said. I wanted to know if the E & F tunnel underneath Northern Blvd. Thanx Anon, 5200, & Mark.
Whoops... I just re-read the question and got it. I see.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
own corrections.
Yes, the express tunnels are indeed under Northern Blvd, if you stand on the platform you can feel and hear the entire station shake when an express train goes by. The portal to the D3/4 tunnel is only a few hundred feet east.
That is not the only place where the Express takes a shortcut. Between 7th Avenue and Church Avenue in Brooklyn, the express tracks go under Prospect Park instead of curving over to 15th St. and Fort Hamilton Parkway (which should have been named Greenwood Avenue, since that's where the 24-hour-manned entrance is located.
Of course you mean at the Northern Blvd. station.
You can't feel any vibrations at 46th Street or Steinway Street.
Also, there's an emergency exit at the back of the Jamaica-bound platform at Northern Blvd., which leads to the D3/4 tracks.
For what it's worth, the Hagstrom 5 Borough atlas shows the express tracks as being roughly half a block south of Northern Blvd. I don't know if that is correct or not.
:)Andrew
It's all in the title of the post! The train will be pulled and pushed by the venerable FL9 locomotives which have been in service since 1957. I read in the last few weeks that Genesis replacements have been ordered by MNCRR & CDOT to replace these few remaining FL9's remaining in service, so there won't be too many more opportunities to have them pose for pictures at quality photo locations! I have been on many NYD-ERA fan trips and the trips get better every time. The trip leaves GCT at 8 AM for a round trip to Poughkeepsie, return to GCT for lunch, then a round trip to Wassaic on the Harlem line which opened on 7/9/00. Bring plenty of film, as fall foliage background to your pictures can be had at numerous photo stops throughout the day. When you consider the escalating price for diesel fuel, insurance, number of hours on the trip and number of miles covered the $60.00 ticket price is quite reasonable. Put a few dollars aside each payday and we can have a good representation of SubTalkers on the trip! Send a stamped SASE to the ERA P.O. Box 3001 Church St. Station NY 10008. See you there!
I hear from very reliable sources, that Chuck Schumer's wife is the new Commissioner of the NYC Dept of Transportation.
Any idea what her qualifications might be?
Her qualifications consist of the following- she screwed up one NYC Agency already- DCAS
Her second qualification, is that all the incompetent and corrupt folks placed in positions of power at CDOT by Wilbur Chapman, the worst Commissioner in the history of CDOT, have struck a deal with her to keep them in their current jobs.
Her third qualification, is that her husband, the Senator from New York, wants the extra income from the taxpayers of nearly $200,000, on the vague promise he will help the Mayor run for Governor. If the Mayor trusts this guy, he needs to have his head examined.
With all the problems CDOT has, the last thing they need now is an influx of Russian Mafia.
...he will help the Mayor run for Governor.
That would be a great job for him. Giuliani does not belong in a legislature.
GOVERNOR GIULIANI IN 2002!
Her qualifications consist of the following- she screwed up one NYC Agency already- DCAS
But if she's successful in getting more federal $$$ for NYC transportation improvements ...
[But if she's successful in getting more federal $$$ for NYC transportation improvements ...]
...and with her husband and their friend Hillary in the Senate...
But if she's successful in getting more federal $$$ for NYC transportation improvements ...
...and with her husband and their friend Hillary in the Senate...
Senator Hillary (how I shudder at the thought!) won't get any more transit funding for NYC. Oh, she'll get plenty of federal money, that's for sure ... money for welfare, for indigient medical care, for harebrained it-takes-a-village social services, and so on.
Sounds worthwhile to me.
Excellent point Peter!
Peter, you with the exception of funding welfare, you make it sound like funding the other social service issues is a bad idea?
Well, Mayor Rudy cut funding to social services and look at the amount of nutzoids we now have back on the streets of NYC! Making the subways dangerous as well!
Doug aka BMTman
Hopefully that will bid well for your efforts, Bob.
Good luck!
Doug aka BMTman
The following items are currently being offered on eBay;
the item number is followed by a brief description:
427404210-New York Susquehanna & Western 1949 Timetable;
427408296-New York Ontario and Western 1945 Timetable;
427411398-Erie Railroad 1945 Timetable;
427713572-Silver Leaf Rapid Transit BMT Standard Subway Car Brochure;
427718580-Silver Leaf Rapid Transit Design Book No. 2;
427722291-Silver Leaf Rapid Transit Design Book No. 3;
427738609-Book “Subway to the World’s Fair 1939-1940” by Kramer;
427744779-Philadelphia Transportation Co. 1964 35th Anniversary Annual Report;
426373704-PATCO Lindenwold June 1969 Timetable;
426377287-PATCO Lindenwold January 1969 Timetable;
424650371-PCC Book, 390 All Color Photos including Brooklyn, Newark and Philadelphia;
428472206-Philadelphia Rapid Transit 1907 Annual Report;
426448796-Philadelphia Rapid Transit Original 1916 Guide;
427413879-New York Yankees and Brooklyn Dodgers 1943 Doubleheader Ticket;
427415791-Book “North New Jersey Rapid Transit” by Quinby;
427446510-Hudson and Manhattan and Gimbels Brochure;
427473034-Timetable BMT Fulton Street Line, Lefferts Avenue Queens pre-IND;
427476464-Timetable Hudson and Manhattan Tubes 1955;
427797772-New Haven Railroad Motorman’s Operating Manual for Electric Locos Circa 1915; original, not a reproduction;
427968957-Timetable BMT Myrtle Avenue Line, Bridge Street 1956.
Silver Leaf Booklet #2 is especially hard to find. I don't have one, and it's the first time I've seen it on eBay. It completely sold out (1,000 press run) in just a few months and quite a few people who ordered it got a copy of Booklet #3 instead, with a request to send an extra 25 cents if they liked it. Most did.
SOURCE: Official Brochure issued by NYCT
they are renovating 7 stations on this line:
Chauncey, Halsey, gates, Kosciusko, Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes.
Work will begin with platform closing on the Queens Boudn side in Mid September for "about three months" at:
Cahuncey, Gates, and Lorimer with the Manhattan side remainign open until the Queens side reopens(and then they'll close the Manhattan side).
Work will include:
1- "Redesign the area around the station booth for better access to and from trains."
2- Build new stairs between the street and the platform.
3- Install new canopies over the stairs and platforms.[And new windscreens.]
4- Repair or replace the mezzanine and platform floors where necessary.
5- Install new vandal-resistant fluorescent lighting on the stairs and in the station-booth area.
6- Install a new ,high-quality public address system.[This is the PACIS with fiber lines and visual displays on the platform that will eventually show the time until the next traiN ARRIVES.]
7- build 3 elevators at Flushing.[This station is near Woodhull Hospital and is not considered a "key ADA station".]
items in brackets are added by me.
The other four stations (Halsey, Kosciusko, Flushing, and Hewes will be done in 2001.)
I'll post more info when I get the info. I worked at Chauncey yesterday and preliminary work is already underway there and at the stations between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway.
What will happen when the 60-foot R42 "J/Z" train cars have to be retired? I understand that the newer, 75-ft. cars will not fit on that line.
Given the large outlays you mentioned however, I guess the speculation I once heard that they would use that as an excuse to discontinue the line isn't true. Does anyone know something about this?
Thanks.
The R-143 cars that will be added to the BMT-Eastern Division (J,Z,M, & L)are supposed to be 60 feet long. Most will be initially assigned to the L, freeing up more 60-foot cars for the J, M, & Z. It looks as though the MTA is going back to 60 feet cars as a standard for new B-Division rolling stock.
[It looks as though the MTA is going back to 60 feet cars as a standard for new B-Division rolling stock. ]
I think this makes sense. As was mentioned in previous threads, the 60-footers have more doors than the 75 ft. cars, which decreases dwell-times.
[the 60-footers have more doors than the 75 ft. cars, which decreases dwell-times. ]
What I mean is, a 10 car train of 60 ft. cars has more doors than an 8 car train of 75 foot cars, as both 60 ft. cars & 75 ft. cars have 4 sets of doors per side. 8X4=32 doors vs. 10X4=40 doors.
Yes, but the Eastern Division is still going to run eight-car trains, of 60-foot cars!
I think that the other B division lines will get 75-footers once the R32s retire.
wayne
Hello out there from TV Land!
Was told by old time informed source that even the 67' ABs had tight clearances at both the curves at Cypress Hills and at Essex Street just off the bridge. In fact, this source told me that BMT men knew the Southern from Eastern Division ABs apart from end rivets missing on the front ends of the cars! It seems that the curves at Essex were so tight that at higher speeds the sway of the cars resulted in inbound and outbound trains "rubbing" each other at the end bulkheads. I guess, once the BMT had the cars in service, there was nothing to do, short of expensive realignment, but to limit their speed around this curve. Of course, this problem is eliminated with the assignment of 60' cars to the Eastern Division.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
There are almost 600 R32 cars, which will not be retired for at least 15 years, which means there will be plenty of 60' cars for a long time.
15 years is NOT a long time, given the lenghth of time trains have been running on these lines.
Elias
by 2015, enough new 6' cars will exist to equip the J/M and Z lines.
>>>by 2015, enough new 6' cars will exist to equip the J/M and Z lines.<<<
Oh boy 100 car trains...I can't wait. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
by 2015, enough new 6' cars will exist to equip the J/M/L and Z lines.
by 2015, enough new 60' cars will exist to equip the J/M/L and Z lines.
The NYCT web site says the closure will start 9-11-00 at 5am and run until 12-18-00 at 5am. (the Queens bound trains will bypass Chauncey, Gates, Lorimer.)According to the web site, J/Z will make their normal scheduled stops so be guided accordingly. When I see the actual bulletin from Stations, I'll post further update(s) as needed.
Call these random thoughts brought on by the end of another summer. I'd say that I'm sorry for posting something utterly devoid of transit content, but given all these anti-Hillary posts (and I'm one of the most active Hillary haters) and similar OT stuff, I just don't see the need for mea culpas. At any rate ...
Our culture has established Spring as the season for renewal and rebirth. As the days get longer and the weather gets warmer, there is a feeling of hope in the air, a sense of possibility. In other words, the cares and burdens of Winter have been cast off, and the opportunities for change and improvement seem almost limitless. Of course, there are some T.S. Eliot-style dissenters, and all but the most illogical of us acknowledge that not every worry can be discarded or every opportunity seized, but by and large there's a general feeling that there's something special about Spring. It goes without saying that this goes way back, to our ancestors and their close relationship with nature. I certainly can't deny the fact that Spring means a lot in the natural world.
You might think I'm odd for saying this, but I look upon Autumn as the real season for change and opportunity. It's something not easy to put into words, but it's there. I consider the beginning of Autumn to offer many opportunities, a real chance at renewal. Don't ask me why this is so. It doesn't have anything to do with work cycles at my job, in fact my busy season begins in late Winter and runs through Spring. It could be from the fact that there's something just, well, vapid about summer, the way that summer's somehow a less serious or purposeful time. You know, Fun time is over, now it's down to business. Or maybe the importance of Autumn is tied in with the beginning of the new school year, and all the opportunity that presents - while I've been out of school for nearly 20 years, the experience left quite an impression on me (and everyone else, of course), and now I'm reliving it vicariously through the next generation. Or maybe it's just that I hate hot weather and welcome the cool air.
At any rate, on this the un-offical last day of Summer, let's celebrate the coming Autumn!
For those who haven't noticed, a picture of the R-16's is featured for September on Bill's NYCT Calendar. It was taken when the R-16's were not quite ten year's old, before graffiti had really taken hold. I make out the numbers on the last three cars to be 6381,6362 and 6447. Hopefully they were still well thought of by riders and passengers alike at that time.
I believe that the caption is incorrect in that their first revenue service was on the BMT Jamaica train.
Since they are featured on the transit calendar this month, let's try to think of some nice things to say about them for a change.
They had great original cushion seating before fiberglass!The railfan window or porthole was kind a tiny. If you got it you were primo!
avid
The red vinyl covered seats seemed really soft and comfortable after years of sitting on the wicker seats in the BU's and Standards.
I understand that the soft seats were replaced when the R-16's were still rather new.
September 23 will mark 33 years since my first R-16 ride - a one-stop hop over the Williamsburg Bridge. The 15 marking really threw me for a loop, since I had gotten used to seeing letters displayed above the storm doors.
Today marks two subway-related anniversaries in my life. It was 33 years ago today that I stood at a railfan window for the first time on either a CC or D train. A month or so later, I was a fixture at the railfan window. I also found out why people complained about the small roofline side signs on the R-10s. We needed to catch an A train at 59th St. to get to Port Authority, and as we got to the southbound platform, an A train was right there. However, I couldn't tell for sure because I didn't notice the roofline signs. It was only after the last car went by, when I looked up at the end route sign, that I saw the A sign. I remember my exact words: "What luck - THAT was an A train!"
And 20 years ago today, I visited New York for the last time before heading out west to Colorado. Among other things, I spotted a CC train of R-46s and an E train of R-10s, both at WTC. The CC train was at the thru station while the E was at the terminal.
Nice? They sure did have the best grafitti tags in tentire systems.
Seriously, these cars did fine when maintained. But that was almost never done.
SUPER STRUT and his friends painted a complete mural which covered the entire body of #6409. It was a masterpiece. But it wasn't the Best In Queens: that honor belonged to Flint I's alternating pastel and psychedelic outbursts on the sides of A/C Slant R40 #4412-4413. Too bad I never got a picture of that one.
wayne
Nice? They sure did have the best grafitti tags in the entire systems.
Seriously, these cars did fine when maintained. But that was almost never done.
The R16 had some of the neatest features - the round porthole windows, transverse seating, curved stanchions, axiflow fans, (later on) the slanted door motor pockets, the peeling white ceilings...and those fantastic multi-colored sign rolls. What I wouldn't give for one of THOSE beauties!
wayne
Come up to Kingston one day and you can help restore one!
There you go again ...
Seriously, you fence sitter have three locations real close where the regulars would be glad to show you how to get dirty.
Kingston has many good old subway cars that need some TLC, as does Shoreline at Branford and Mike Hanna is at Coney Island every Tuesday night ! Or see the Fall colors and lots of mass transit stuff at Seashore/Kennebunkport.
Mr t__:^)
It has become rather annoying to see so many off-topic posts (rants and otherwise) in SubTalk, taking up valuable space on my screen. This group is supposed to be about trains, rail transit, and related subjects - other things can be discussed in other places.
Therefore, although this might seem drastic, I must add to my "killfile" list anybody who starts an off-topic thread. For now, I'm not including responders; however....
It has become rather annoying to see so many off-topic posts (rants and otherwise) in SubTalk, taking up valuable space on my screen. This group is supposed to be about trains, rail transit, and related subjects - other things can be discussed in other places.
Therefore, although this might seem drastic, I must add to my "killfile" list anybody who starts an off-topic thread. For now, I'm not including responders; however....
You're just being silly. Many of the off-topic threads are interesting, at least in my opinion, and no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read them.
Then by all means, let's have an 'on-topic thread. What do you think is the best radius track for Thomas the tank Engine?
09/05/2000
[Then by all means, let's have an 'on-topic thread. What do you think is the best radius track for Thomas the tank Engine?]
There's no reason to discuss this here, just call the Long Island Rail Road, they should have that imformation handy!
Bill "Newkirk"
And, while we're on the subject, is a dual mode steam-electric loco possible?
It would be difficult to extinguish the fire in the tunnel and restart it once outside again.
I'm only a periodic passenger on MNRR, and I have mostly ridden the New Haven Line. I had occasion to ride MNRR this Labor Day weekend on two occasions, once on the Harlem Line and once on the Hudson Line, both of which provided unusual experiences.
Saturday, early afternoon. Local Harlem train to Crestwood. It appears we had a novice engineer. Not that it had anything to do with it, but it was a woman. (I always thought it odd that communications between the conductor and the engineer are done via PA for all passengers to hear.) Anyway, she seemed to have trouble judging where to stop the train. The lady conductor had to intercom her to move up at almost every stop. This ended up delaying the train.
Monday, late morning. Local Hudson train to Irvington. Conductor (male this time) accidentally hits "battery reset," throwing us "into emergency" and bringing the train to a screeching halt just past the Harlem R. Bridge, knocking out lights and AC in all but the last 2 cars for the rest of the trip. This delay lasted only about 5 min., thank God. Of course, I was railfanning, so I was in the first car, and stuck with it despite the lack of comfort (it wasn't that bad anyway). The engineer opened the door after this and he and I had a nice chat. He turned out to be a veteran, around since the Conrail years. Found out that on the newer trains, M5s, you can reset from inside the cab. We were on an M1 or M3, I can't recall, and the reset is outside the car in these early models!!! Also found out the dual-mode locos run diesel all the way to the Park Ave. tunnel portal, not utilizing the 3rd rail shoe until then because that method does not provide as much power. Ended up not minding the slight delay because of the chat. As a matter of fact, he struck up the conversation with me, which I was grateful for, since I try not to "foam" to obnoxiously and mind my own business, usually.
I always thought it odd that communications between the conductor and the engineer are done via PA for all passengers to hear.
On the LIRR, in contrast, you'll frequent hear PA annoucements saying "go to Four," that being a radio channel for intra-crew private conversations. If the train comes to a sudden stop between stations, and you immediately hear "engineer/conductor go to Four," you'd better not be in any hurry to get anywhere.
At that point you turn up the volume on your scanner so that everyone in the car can hear what is really going on. BTW on my chacago trip I carried about my scanner and frequently stood in the rear vestablue and many of the passengers kept asking me if I worked for Amtrak.
See, isn't it nice to know that there are RR employees who are human, enjoy their work, don't hate the passengers and don't think railfans are nuts! As a "retired" veteran of 34 years east and west I always enjoyed helping passengers and/or railfns out. Of course I'm a railfan myself.
do railfans make better railroad workers?
Not the "foamer" type, but the railroad and transit industries are beginning to realize that an employee who is motivated by more than just a paycheck is a better one.
At BSM we just got a new member who is also an engineer for CSX. Among the items in his work bag is a camera, for taking those shots that non-employees can't get that make it into Trains Magazine.
The 19th and early 20th Century cars in our collection were set aside by the Superintendent of Rolling Stock and Shops of the United Railways and the Baltimore Transit Company, A.T.Clark. He used the power of his office to save cars by "hiding" them in Work service. Today, we would know him as a railfan, for he was interested in the cars for their value. For him, it was more than "just a job".
Some do and some don't. As another reply has stated, yes and managements are seeing value in it.
OTOH there are some who have the joy of working there but don't always have the capabilitiesof doing a good job even though they mean well.
As to the conductor calling or spotting for the operator, they do this a lot on the New Haven line.
First off were there bridge plates?
When they put down the bridge plates they leave on the right of way a marker for the train to stop BUT if the crew is using different cars then what the stop is marked for it can be a problem. I've also heard the operator call on the PA that the mark is missing and to line him up.
This is also the case without bridge plates. NH line crews are famous for choose what cars they are going to use. When I take the weekend 540am NH Local or even the 2nd train the 640 that is a bit more crowded the crew has different cars open. Since these two trains will be returning on an express from New Haven they are full train sets.
Last time up on the 540am train working from the back (GCT) to front they had the last two cars closed (which I hated since I was running late) then two cars open then a car closed than a car open then the rest closed. Because of this the normal car stop markers at some stations the would not platform the open cars. The conductor called the stops, he gave first buzz to cut power, 2nd to stop. I did not note the stations they did it but over the PA it was confirmed which stations the conductor would spot the train.
[I've also heard the operator call on the PA that the mark is missing and to line him up.]
I heard her say once that she was missing a mark. It seemed like the conductor was asking her to pull up 1 or 2 cars every stop.
[As to the conductor calling or spotting for the operator, they do this a lot on the New Haven line. First off were there bridge plates?]
If you would be kind enough to explain exactly what bridge plates are and how they assist in lining-up, I may be able to let you know if I saw any. I have seen signs saying "bridge plate" on NJT, and I always wondered what they were about. Thx.
KP
A "bridge plate" is a more or less portable/temporary object used to bridge a gap between a car door and a platform. Some of them are small and stored where they are handy in case of need, such as to get a wheel chair over a gap of a few inches. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize that the bridges used to reach the express track at a local station when the local track is OOS are also called bridge plates.
In that case, there were no bridge plates in use on the described trip. All stops were made on local tracks, as far as I can remember.
For starters he would be highly favorable in pushing for needed funding for subway and other rapid transit projects.
Secondly, he would use his weight (not that there's alot of it there) to pressure the MTA in ordering all future subway cars with 'retro-technology' (i.e., getting subway car contractors to build R-9s).
Sounds like a good write-in choice for me...;-)
Doug aka BMTman
I second the nomination ...
Ol' Froggy'd probably do at least as well as those clowns we have running the country now
Even a doo-doo head like you must know you are not eligable to vote in New york. If they still had literacy tests, you couldn't even vote for the mayor of Sesame Street.
well as for doo-doos i can write him in as president mr literacy test
& do you still watch the ""cookie monster"" on your favorite tv show
Sesamie Street ??or is your favorite miss pigs??
Aye.. another great thought.
south ferry for vice president a great ticket !!
with malice toward most and indifference toward the rest, let us strive on to finish the work we are in...
i am deeply touched by the almost unanimous show of support for my candidacy ( pigs, if elected, i will see to it that you will be imprisoned in a yellow school bus with the madman from "dirty harry" as your personal chaperone)
to ensure my election i will have to pander to the public... to wit, i promise to prohibit railfans from riding the subways from the hours of 5 am to 11 pm... from 11 pm to 5 am, they will be allowed only in the last car of each train, with darkened windows and padded walls...
LOL!!!
( pigs, if elected, i will see to it that you will be imprisoned in a yellow school bus with the madman from "dirty harry" as your personal chaperone)
I have seen the light! Today I actually saw a school bus that from the looks of things (I'm not sure if it was air conditioned though), that has none of the disadvantages of a school bus! It was a Varsity bus on Lexington in the upper 60s. The only problem I see are the double seats, that wouldn't work on a real school bus.
Hey Pigs, talking about school buses you might have actually liked the ones that occasionally picked us up in East Meadow in the early 60's. East Meadow's school buses were supplied then by Harran Transportation. (who now supply Atl. City buses) They had yellow rickety old stickshift schoolbuses. Harran Transp. also owned the Jerusalem Av Bus Company (which had routes in Nassau which are now part of MSBA-Long Island Bus) Jerusalem Bus Comp had old-style Ralph Kramdem style GM's (brown in color IIRC) Every once in a while our school bus would actually be one of those Jerusalem old style GM's, I guess when there was a shortage of working school buses. What a difference. The ride actually became fun and for elementary school students it seemed we were on a real city bus solo without our parents!!!!
We are all aware of the poor voter turnout. There are a variety of reasons involving voter disillusionment and poor canidates. However if you don't vote you don't do anybody any good. If you can't vote for a canadate you like or respect write one in. A vote for heypual is not a wasted vote. If enough people write in, canadates will see a whole pool of potential votes and they will start changing their act in order to get them. So I expect every subtalker to go out and vote and if they are sick of the status quo vote for Heypual. You have the power!
I will not vote for heypaul as I higly disagree with his anti-R142 and pro-antiquated garbage stand. I will not vote for anyone who wants to eliminate cars that are smooth and quiet, have clocks, clean and understandable announcements, bright lights and are air conditioned in favor of horrible deathtraps that make awful, loud noises, have no announcements of any kind, wicker seats and dim lights.
That's because you never rode on them!!!
right on officer jeffrey rosen see you this fall on"project redbird".
Well I did ride on the R1/9s. To me they were cattle cars or junk boxes, depending on my mood. The best thing that ever happened to them is that they were scrapped. I'm with Pigs on this one.
he was to young to ride a good old R-1/R-9 series !
[I will not vote for heypaul as I higly disagree with his anti-R142 and pro-antiquated garbage stand. I will not vote for anyone who wants to eliminate cars that are smooth and quiet, have clocks, clean and understandable announcements, bright lights and are air conditioned in favor of horrible deathtraps that make awful, loud noises, have no announcements of any kind, wicker seats and dim lights.]
Excuse me, but first of all the failure rate of R-9's wasn't anything close to the problems of the stainless steel "tin toys" of recent memory.
Secondly, you're probably the only SubTalker who prefers those hard, cold plastic seats to the comfortable wicker seats of yesteryear. Oh well....
Thirdly, what makes older trains "deathtraps" as I have quoted you here? I don't recall people dying in those older cars, do you?
Lastly, yes, older equipment had inferior intercom systems. But that is easy enough to retro-fit with new technology.
BTW, this thread I started was only in jest -- so don't take it so seriously.
Doug aka BMTman
Thirdly, what makes older trains "deathtraps" as I have quoted you here? I don't recall people dying in those older cars, do you?
I'll take that one back.
BTW, this thread I started was only in jest -- so don't take it so seriously.
That's quite obvious, but I wanted to make my feelings known about old vs. new equipment.
As for seats, I will admit that the R-142 seats are horribly uncomfortable. In this case, I would prefer sitting in a Redbird (even in an R-33S if it's the wintertime!).
>>> I wanted to make my feelings known about old vs. new equipment.
Once again, ageism creeps in! :-)
Tom
Now you want to make me a carpetbagger in reverse. How long would I have to "live" in New York State to vote there? If it were only to upset the apple cart it might be worth it. Big ed moves back to the Bronx! That would be the headline of the century [hasn't been a long century so far tho'!]
Great! R9's for the B division [ok...at least one order of D types, the AB's...maybe but not important, R9's were better ]NOW before I load my van: how about High V's and Low V's for the A Division; it isn't worth going back to settle for redbirds..the next generation can have them. Just think...many will disagree: but you'd have trains that wouldn't cost more than their production price to modify them to make them work. And you'd have reliable trains for 40-50 years with a moderate amount of maintenance.
Yes transit funding for:Please: new lines where needed. Who said they have to be subways? How about a 4 track second ave. el? To Hades with the NIFTY's (not in front of the terraces?} OK, with ballasted roadbed, steel lattice structures! MUDC cars reincarnated, wooden el cars that is.. Coop city, Riverdale to the Yonkers City line; 179-Hillside to the Nassau County line, outdoors please.
I usually don't believe in taking up so much space on being silly, but Doug's idea has been the best thought of all in the political insanity going on. Too bad it reflects real life election and isn't a joke.Guess you New York residents would be able to write him in!
hasn't been a long century so far tho'!
You don't call 99 years, 8 months and 4 days long?
I think that they went back and arbitrarily turned 1 BC into the year 0 so that centuries run from 0-99 (like a subway roster) instead of 1-100 (like a British locomotive roster).
You think, therefore you're wrong. We're now 99 years, 8 months and 5 days into the century.
Train Rosters now run in the 1-100 range.
Notice the R-68s 5001-5200 as opposed to 5000-5199.
On the NYCT all car classes with the exception of the R-68A begin with even numbers - odd car being one digit higher. LIRR and R-68A even cars are the higher number.
What about the R-142?
Great post, Ed. I think I'll save it for my archives ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
I'm honored! Now to get info on whether we are indeed in the 21st century. Seems there are differences of opinion. I was being humble in saying this so far has been a short century! I don't care, time just goes too fast.
Here's the Straight Scoop on Centuries:
Centuries always begin on January 1, XX01 at 12:00:00:01.
They always end at December 31, XX00 at 12:00:00
The Nineteenth Century began on January 1, 1801 and ended on December 31, 1900.
The Twentieth Century began on January 1,1901 and will end on December 31, 2000 at midnight.
The Twenty-first Century begins (along with the Third Millennium, which hasen't begun, despite the Media thinking otherwise) at 1 second after Midnight on January 1, 2001.
Centuries, BTW, get their designation by their ending year. (i.e, Nineteenth (1800's) or Twentieth (1900's)
The reason centuries are numbered as they are is the "fault" of the monk who devised the current calendar for whoever was Pope then in 562 AD. Being learned, he knew that "0" is the placeholder for no value (or nothing) and there could be No Year Zero, as all years exist and have a calendar value.
[The reason centuries are numbered as they are is the "fault" of the monk who devised the current calendar for whoever was Pope then in 562 AD. Being learned, he knew that "0" is the placeholder for no value (or nothing) and there could be No Year Zero, as all years exist and have a calendar value.]
Would that have been Theoloneus Monk?
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
[Would that have been Theoloneus Monk?]
I think it was his rapper cousin Felonius.
That's a GREAT one, Bob! ;-)
Being learned, he knew that "0" is the placeholder for no value (or nothing) and there could be No Year Zero, as all years exist and have a calendar value.
There was no concept of zero until the Arabs brought Hindu numbering to Europe.
Notice how there is no Roman numeral zero, or Greek, Hebrew or original Arabic for that matter.
I have been having problems getting through to this site and they may be on my end. So, I don't know if my response was ever received about some questions about Nevins Street and why it is laid out the way it is. Here is my "Five cent's worth":
Years ago, a retired IRT motorman told me that, when the station was built, it was hoped to connect the station with the (then) proposed northside tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. When the City asked for proposed routes under the Dual Contracts, the IRT proposed rebuilding the 3 Ave. El at its own expense to carry steel subway cars from the Bowery, over the northside tracks of the Manhattan Bridge to Flatbush Ave.in Brooklyn. Once there. the tracks would run with the Manhattan bound track over the Brooklyn-bound track. This track layout would serve two purposes:1- Bypass the proposed BRT station at DeKalb Ave (by running under the east side of Flatbush Ave.); and 2- connect the Brooklyn bound bridge track to Nevins St. station via the (never used) lower level. This proposal, made in 1911, was shelved by the City and both sets of Manhattan Bridge tracks were given to the BRT. If you check Cunnungham/Dehart's book, RAPID TRANSIT IN BROOKLYN, check the activities for the year, 1911. It seems to bear out my story, at least partially. ELKEEPER
Sunday, a ten year old boy was killed in texas when the SUV he was riding in flipped over. As you might anticipate, the cause of the accident was officially listed as 'tire failure'.
QUESTION #1Is there anyone in this country that has not heard that the Firestone tires on Fords & other SUVs may be dangerously defective?
QUESTION #2The tire maker, the auto maker and possibly will be held Civilly responsible (perhaps even criminally liable). What share of the blame should the parent hold for knowingly placing his/her child in a vehicle that was presumed to be unsafe?
What happens to the 7 million tires that are being recalled?
Do they get recycled? Do they become part of the pavement on the Crossbronx expressway? Do they become a bredding ground for mosquiotes or part of the greenhouse effect after burning in a dump?
Any suggestions?
avid
And this thread has to do with subways/rapid transit...how?
i will ask a rubber tire / transit question...
was & or did bad tires that caused the pars subway to flip on its
side ?? does anyone remember it happened last month??
At the risk of offending you, in the subject line it was stated that this was another off-topic posting.
Maybe not quite as off-topic as advertised. Civil liability issues do impact on transit systems, after all. Among the questions that both have in common is the allocation of blame between the parent and the other defendant.
(What share of the blame should the parent hold for knowingly placing his/her child in a vehicle that was presumed to be unsafe?)
It will take a year or more to replace all the tires, since everyone going for replacements has created a shortage. Perhaps the parent has tried to the tires replaced, and could not. There have allegedly been 100 or so deaths. It's bad, but it's not like every one of these tires is popping, and most people have no choice but to drive.
It's sort of like asking "what share of the blame should the parent hold for knowingly placing his/her child in a vehicle that was presumed to be unsafe?" for those parents taking their kids on a Redbird.
They did prosecute someone in Michigan for not turning off the passenger airbag in his truck. (equipped with a switch for the purpose) His truck struck a vehicle that had run a stop sign, the airbags deployed, and his infant son in a rear-facing child seat was killed.
-Hank
It should be known that as of yesterday, it is not certain that the tires were the cause of the rollover. Police said a tire was blown out, but further investigation has to be done before conclusions can be made.
CNN article
Huh? It will never happen to me!
Did the recall state that the tire/vehicle combination placed the occupants in imminent danger and should not be used? It did not. It minimized the possible danger to the vehicle's occupants. I fail to see how the driver can assume any negligence, so long as the manufacturers and the government authorities permit such vehicles to be operated.
There was another recent example of tire failure causing a catostrophic accident - the Concorde. The Concorde has been removed from service. Both the Explorer and the Concorde appear to go out of control as the result of a single tire failure. Why the difference in response?
In my original post, I took no position. I only asked the question. As long as you asked, however, here is the difference in my opinion. The Concord related failure occurred once. There have been hundreds of accidents attributed to the tire failures on SUVs. Ford and Firestone, in their respective recalls stated that there was a real possibility of catastrophic tire failure, especially if the tires were overloaded, improperly inflated or subject to high heat (explaining why 80% of the failures occurred in the south).
Firestone & Ford are replacing the tires. Albiet, not as fast as desirable but as fast as current production permits. My question as a parent and a grand-parent is knowing that there is this real potential for danger, would I as a responsible adult subject a child to that danger. If I do - could I or would I be negligent. My feeling is that if I had one of the subject vehicles with the suspect tires, in my heart I know that I would not let my grand-children ride in the vehicle. I don't know why any parent or grandparent would.
BTW, the Concord incident being a single incident after more than 24 years of service is statistically non-existant much like the flight 800 explosion. However, look at all the effort and information that has been put forth to make an enlightened choice as to what type of aircraft we fly in or don't. I personally would not fly in a Folker 60 when USAir flew them. Having said that, I don't find the situation between a common carrier where we may not have a choice of vehicle and our own vehicle completely analogous.
(Did the recall state that the tire/vehicle combination placed the occupants in imminent danger and should not be used? It did
not. It minimized the possible danger to the vehicle's occupants. I fail to see how the driver can assume any negligence, so long
as the manufacturers and the government authorities permit such vehicles to be operated.)
I'd say Firestone is 70 percent responsible, Ford 15 percent responsible(which had evidence of the problem and took no action), the federal government (which had evidence of the problem and took no action) 10 percent responsible, and the customer five percent responsible.
Bear in mind that I tend to be anti-plaintiff on the liability questions.
Is than a new IKEA store going up near the Sea Beach Line?
Yes it is
Uh oh...better not let Fred find out! [smirk]
Whereabouts?
I think i saw some construction between 8th Ave. and the tunnel to 4th Ave. It's on the Manhattan bound side(look up).
I think i saw some construction between 8th Ave. and the tunnel to 4th Ave. It's on the Manhattan bound side(look up).
Are you sure that's actually an IKEA? Their stores aren't really designed for urban locations. They require a great deal of land, and most buyers pick up their purchases in their vehicles (delivery costs $100).
Actually, IKEA's not my favorite store right now. We went to the one in Hicksville on Saturday to buy a computer desk. While some items can be picked up in the self-serve warehouse, others, including the desk, have to be requested at a service counter after you pay. The wait at the service counter - which came after a 20-minute wait at the registers - was 45 minutes to an hour! Fortuntely, I found out about the wait before we paid for the desk, and needless to say we didn't buy it.
Pretty good Swedish meat balls in the cafe, though.
(Are you sure that's actually an IKEA?)
If it is, it ain't legal, and wouldn't be going up without contorversy. So I think not. Moreover, I was in the area a while back photographing recent housing, and didn't see anything.
Was this a joke?
There is a large blue warehouse-type building with a yellow strip at 8th Ave and the Sea Beach. I see it every day on my drive home from work. Looks enough like an Ikea to me.
-Hank
The MTA's (Baltimore) North Avenue Light Rail Shop building, built in 1991, is Blue with Yellow stipes and Window framing.
We call it the IKEA store for LRV's.
Don't know what the architect was thinking and IKEA doesn't have the Blue & Yellow building as a trademark, so the state didn't hear from them.
Makes an interesting railfan conversation piece.
I'm not sure.
>>>Actually, IKEA's not my favorite store right now. We went to the one in Hicksville on Saturday to buy a
computer desk. While some items can be picked up in the self-serve warehouse, others, including the
desk, have to be requested at a service counter after you pay. The wait at the service counter - which
came after a 20-minute wait at the registers - was 45 minutes to an hour! Fortuntely, I found out about the
wait before we paid for the desk, and needless to say we didn't buy it.
Pretty good Swedish meat balls in the cafe, though. <<<
I've bought a good deal of IKEA stuff over the last few years including the desk that holds the computer on which I type this, and the bed I sleep on every night. My home IKEA was the one in Hicksville. I would take a bus out there from Flushing. But, I now boycott IKEA except for small stuff. Why?
They raised their already exorbitant delivery charge to a whopping $89. This will almost double the cost of some items for sale there. Now, when I want a desk or a shelf, I go to Gothic Cabinet, whose delivery charges are more in line with reality.
If IKEA wants a NYC clientele, they will have to accept the fact that not everyone in the city drives and lower delivery charges.
The cinnamon buns are better than the meatballs. Too much gristle.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've bought a good deal of IKEA stuff over the last few years including the desk that holds the computer on which I type this, and the bed I sleep on every night. My home IKEA was the one in Hicksville. I would take a bus out there from Flushing. But, I now boycott IKEA except for small stuff. Why?
They raised their already exorbitant delivery charge to a whopping $89. This will almost double the cost of some items for sale there. Now, when I want a desk or a shelf, I go to Gothic Cabinet, whose delivery charges are more in line with reality.
If IKEA wants a NYC clientele, they will have to accept the fact that not everyone in the city drives and lower delivery charges.
It's not always possible to avoid delivery charges even if you have a car. We ended up buying a small sofa on our trip to the Hicksville store last Saturday. It's not a full-sized upholstered sofa, but just a pine wood frame with large cushions. Although the wooden parts were packed flat - a point which IKEA keeps emphasizing - the box still was large. We just barely fit it in the back of our Rodeo, and that was with the rear seats folded down (fortunately, the kids weren't along, otherwise it would've been a no-go). There's no way anyone could have fit the box in a regular automobile, and this was far from one of the largest articles sold there. You can buy roof racks, but they can be tricky to use. My point is that IKEA knows full well that many people require the delivery service, and charge accordingly.
IKEA's whole business model differs significantly from that of most furniture stores. As noted in the Times not long ago, furniture stores traditionally make very little if any money from the sale of furniture. They instead earn their profits from the interest charged on in-house financing. Furniture stores generally will give credit to all comers, regardless of creditworthiness, but charge high interest rates. These rates are high enough to allow the stores to do well financially despite having substantial default rates. IKEA, in contrast, does not see financing as a significant profit center. They do offer store credit, but from what I've heard their underwriting standards are similar to those for MasterCards or Visas. Most customers seem to pay by cash or regular credit card. Deprived of the interest revenues enjoyed by most furniture stores, IKEA naturally enough has to look for other auxiliary revenue sources. Delivery charges are exactly what they have in mind.
The cinnamon buns are better than the meatballs. Too much gristle.<.i>
Guess this is a point where we'll have to agree to disagree.
(If IKEA wants a NYC clientele, they will have to accept the fact that not everyone in the city drives and lower delivery charges.)
IKEA's whole model is passing on savings on shipping and assembly costs by having the customer do the work. If you need the store to do the work, you can do better elsewhere. I wouldn't go all the way out to Hicksville to buy something that will have to be delivered anyway. I did go out there to buy something that would fit on my car.
One option is to only shop there if you are buying lots of stuff at once (ie. furnishing an entire room), then rent a van.
IKEA's whole model is passing on savings on shipping and assembly costs by having the customer do the work. If you need the store to do the work, you can do better elsewhere.
Quite true. They also save money by operating on what's close to a self-service model. There are information booths, and some people assisting customers in the self-service warehouse, but by and large their staff-to-customer ratio is probably well below that of most retailers and especially most furniture stores.
Not surprisingly, the lack of staff has its advantages and disadvantages. I appreciate the lack of smarmy salespeople on the hunt for commissions. But the hour-long wait to pick up merchandise, not to mention the enormous lines at the (too few open) cash registers, shows the downside of a minimal staff.
One more thing comes to mind. Although IKEA's product selection seems enormous, in actual fact much of what they have consists of color and style variations on a surprisingly small number of basic models. Each of these models has a Swedish-sounding name*, yet another example of IKEA's look-at-where-we-come-from approach. Limiting the number of models surely saves money along the way.
One option is to only shop there if you are buying lots of stuff at once (ie. furnishing an entire room), then rent a van.
Indeed, I saw a few rental vans in the pick-up area.
* = Not all names are Swedish, however. One of the bookcase models is called "Billy," a moniker that scarcely conjurs up images of flaxen-haired youths frolicking under the Midnight Sun in Malmo or Goteborg.
I prefer Ikea elizabeth for the tax break and the view of Newark airport while my wife shops...
IKEA did have a funny commercial a couple of years ago in which they snazzed up a subway car (I forget which car). Would that the MTA had picked up on some of the decorating ideas...
www.forgotten-ny.com
IKEA's whole model is passing on savings on shipping and assembly costs by having the customer do the work. If you need the store to do the work, you can do better elsewhere.
Quite true. They also save money by operating on what's close to a self-service model. There are information booths, and some people assisting customers in the self-service warehouse, but by and large their staff-to-customer ratio is probably well below that of most retailers and especially most furniture stores.
Not surprisingly, the lack of staff has its advantages and disadvantages. I appreciate the lack of smarmy salespeople on the hunt for commissions. But the hour-long wait to pick up merchandise, not to mention the enormous lines at the (too few open) cash registers, shows the downside of a minimal staff.
One more thing comes to mind. Although IKEA's product selection seems enormous, in actual fact much of what they have consists of color and style variations on a surprisingly small number of basic models. Each of these models has a Swedish-sounding name*, yet another example of IKEA's look-at-where-we-come-from approach. Limiting the number of models surely saves money along the way.
One option is to only shop there if you are buying lots of stuff at once (ie. furnishing an entire room), then rent a van.
Indeed, I saw a few rental vans in the pick-up area.
* = Not all names are Swedish, however. One of the bookcase models is called "Billy," a moniker that scarcely conjurs up images of flaxen-haired youths frolicking under the Midnight Sun in Malmo or Goteborg.
I prefer Ikea elizabeth for the tax break and the view of Newark airport while my wife shops...
IKEA did have a funny commercial a couple of years ago in which they snazzed up a subway car (I forget which car). Would that the MTA had picked up on some of the decorating ideas...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I dredged up another issue that came up on my trip, namely CUS is hazzardous to your health. Those of us in the east coars have become accustomed to clean, quiet, efficient electric locomotives gliding in and out of our underground station complexes. Well CUS is still underground, but its 100% diesel. I was sitting at an outdoor eating place and I kept noticing grey exaust smoke wafting from vents in the street. I realized that they were vents to the station. After sneaking onto the platform area to get some pics I could braely breath. The air was just thick with diesel exaust. There is one "open" part of the station where the canopies have skylights and the exaust catchers open to the outside. At this time in the afternoon a shaft of sunlight was shining down through one of these creating a 45o plane of visable gray smoke all along the platform. I able able to get a picture of this phenominon. Needless to say this can't be good for one's health and the noise generated by the Metra diesels was deafening. Chichgo desperatly needs to embark upon an electrifacation project.
As an Aside its a shame that in at least 2 of the few remaining great stations (Chicago and DC) Amtrak is trying to give some sort of "Airport" feel with "gates" and "terminals" and some guy ckecking your "boarding pass" (ticket). Its a laugh. Most people take amtrak to get away from that kind of thing.
Most people take Amtrak to get to their destination.
Most people take Amtrak to get to their destination.
Well...if they think so.
If you really need to get somewhere you should fly. If don't want hassle and prefer comfort w/ actually arriving at your destination as a secondary goal take Amtrak. (NEC and some commuter routes excluded.)
[If you really need to get somewhere you should fly.]
If you've been reading the papers lately, it appears as though the number of destinations to which one can travel by train and arrive earlier than if one were to travel by plane is increasing. In other words, given the amount of time it takes to get to the airport, check in, and sit around while waiting for a flight which is most likely delayed, to get to some medium-distance destinations from New York City it may be faster by Amtrak door-to-door. Washington (you spend more time on the tarmac in the Delta or US Airways shuttle than you do in the air!), Albany, and Harrisburg come to mind.
You know I've actually seen in a Continental Airlines timetable, flights between Newark and PHILADELPHIA!!!
And better yet -
Newark and Atlantic City!
The ONLY purpose that I could possibly think of for these flights is that they serve as connections or feeder flights.
Other than that, you'd have to be completely out of your mind to fly from Newark to AC or Philly! I'm sorry, but you'd have to be crazy!
A co-worker just mentioned today that he once flew from Oakland to San Francisco.
I used to work for PSA (Pacific Southwest Airlines) which was a local airline within California (and then grew to the whole western USA before US Air bought them up). We used to have regular flights that went from San Diego to San Francisco, then Oakland. There weren't enough folks (in those days) to have separate flights from SAN to SFO and SAN to OAK, so one flight hit both northern cities, then returned to SAN -- a big "loop" so to speak. Air time from SFO to OAK was about four minutes though all the taxiing took about 20 more minutes!!! This was done with 727-100's and later with 727-200's. (Things got busier when the MD-80's arrived and separate flights were instituted.)
The competitor, Air California, had flights from Ontario to San Jose and then to Oakland. It was a grand total of six minutes in the air on that one....and about 20 taxiing too. This was done with 737-200's.
My sister works for United, and she mentioned working flights from Newport News to Norfolk, Virginia. Same thing -- about four minutes in the air, with a 737.
I once flew from LAX to Burbank, and it took almost an hour.
But it was during bad weather somewhere, and they just wanted to move the equipment around, or to collect PAX from another missed connection or something.
Naturally my bags went somewhere else, and so I had to wait at SeaTac for them to catch up.
Elias
And once in the late 1960's I flew on an Eastern Airlines flight from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale. The flight crew didn't even raise the gear or flaps.
I almost walked from Homestead to Fort Lauderdale when JFK was urging Americans to take 50 mile hikes for fitness, but plans got out of hand and the group decided to bag it.
They may not have raised the landing gear, but raising and lowering the flaps is very important to making the plane climb or descend, along with ailerons, etc.
United has two flights daily (each way) from Washington to Baltimore.
You know I've actually seen in a Continental Airlines timetable, flights between Newark and PHILADELPHIA!!! And better yet -
Newark and Atlantic City!
Newark to Atlantic City doesn't seem so odd. After all, it's about a two-hour drive, much longer if there's heavy traffic on the Garden State, and going by train requires an indirect routing through Philadelphia.
I quite agree with you about CUS.
Some nice electric locomtives would do Chicago well!
I quite agree also about AMTKs AirPort mentality waiting rooms, but got my ears pined back by others who liked it that way.
What would help AMTK is to emulate the airlines with real seat assignments out of the terminals at least, so that no one would need to push to the head of the line in order to get a window seat, or whatever.
Elias
Actually I had a big problem with seat assignments on my Chicago trip. On Amtrak 41 I got a nice trackside seat in the last car and there were some non-trackside seats open that I could switch to. On the Southwest Chief we were assigned a seat as we boarded and it was like a completely random seat. Unfortunitly mine was not trackside. The trail was only 1/2 full, but when I moved to trackside seat some ass hole attendant told me to sit in my assigned seat (like 3 rows away) or sit in the lounge. Although the lounge has a nice view it gets noisy, crowded and dosen't offer the same down track visibility as a trackside coach seat does. I tried to sit down about 3 hours later but I got busted again. She said some bull about people getting on later, but when I got off in Topeaka the seats were still empty. We also got assigned seats on the way back, but this time the lounge stayed pretty much empty and I was able to use my father to "reserve" a lineside seat while I sat trackside and so jumped back and 4th when necessary. Seating should be on a first come first shove basis and open seats should be fair game for a temporary sit.
Yes, by seat assignments, I meant that you would specify a Window or an Isle seat when you made your reservation. And your ticket would have your car and seat number on it. Given the complexity of AMTK, this would work best out of the terminal stations only. But, then that is where the problems are.
I remember a family getting on somewhere in the middle of PA, perhaps Pittsburg, and telling the car attendent that they had reserved seats. He said "Yup..... here is one, anothere is over there, and these two are....." Not a good thing, and of course assignments only at the terminals would not have helped these people at all. But one thing at a time. If we can get it started at the terminals, then eventually they will be able to make logical assignments for the whole run.
Your trainman was trying to keep blocks of seats open for a family or small group, but perhaps he should have said "I am keeping these blocks together incase a family needs to sit together. You can stay there for now, but if I need the seats, then you will have to move back to your assigned seat."
Other AMTK trains that I rode on had signs over blocks of seats stating that they were reserved for groups travelling together. Of course if the manifests would show how many such groups there will be where they get on and so on, then he could try to reserve the right number of blocks.
But all of this is so much hot air. The airlines can assign seats to each passenger on each leg of the trip, then the computer software exists, and there is no reason why AMTK cannot make use of it. Sure more people ride on a train than on a plane, and sure the train has much more turnover, but this is largely imaginary, since airlines handle more passengers in a day, and have more planes than AMTK has cars, and they also travel to more destinations. So I think that it is about time AMTK got off of its butt, and started giving people the kind of accomodations that they have come to expect in travel.
Elias
Odd thing about the family blocks. We sat in seats 5 and 6. The family behind us had 8 9 10, but 8 was in our row. We had to switch w/ them (much to the chigrin on the attendant who tried, but failed, to think up a way to stop us from moving about) so that their family could sit together.
Two thoughts, one you are correct about the air in CUS/ As a short term(don't eben think about the cost of electirication of all of the routes into CUS even if only from the city limits)
Two--nit picky as it is AND I always strive for a trackside window, you should describe the clearly lsame behaviour of the attendant and file with their guaranteed satisfaction folks because the "experience" id what they are claiming to market. LOL
I have always tried for a trackside window on all trains and planes, and have found myself waiting in that awful Chicago Crush Waiting Room and just getting more and more frustrated. Finally, I have decided, the heck with it, the Isle seat is better anyway. You get a good view out of both sides of the car, and at my age, it make it easier to get to the rest room in the middle of the night. : )
So now I can dwadle in the terminal until the last moment, and then walk down to the platform and get on the train, and not have to worry about where I get to sit. Remember, half the run is at night anyway.
You are right about the lounge cars, they are the worst seats on the train. Better that noisy people sit there than in the coaches. The seats are uncomfortable on purpose so that someone will not hog such a seat for the whole trip. I guess if I were designing a consist, I might make some coaches more ameniable to neat, quiet people.
Hey.... but I *did* that. My model railroad runs both reserved and unreserved coaches on all of its trains. : )
Elias
On Amtrak "Reserved" means you won't have to stand and the train can "sell out". When I take NE Direct home from New Haven the Prain Pulls into Penn, 80% of the people leave, then a whole new set fills the car to a crush load (still an Amtrak crush load has more legroom) with like 20 standees in the isle.
On my return trip in the lounge I found it more enjoyable. Albeli it was fairly crowded and my back started to hurt from sitting forward I offered a nice bi-directional view and it was easy to take pictures out of the window. In my return trip on Amtrak 40 the train was filled to capasity (no opposite seatline seat) and not to mention the coach windows were so dirty my camera wouldn't take pictures through them. I had to go to the cafe car. Luckly I was able to free up both Lineside and trackside seating from Johnstown to Altoona to take pictures of the varoius towers and the curve. At harrisburg I got out and manaully wiped my window down w/ paper towers. You should have seen the grime that came off. It was funny to have a coach w/ one window sparkleing clean. I then wrote WASH ME on the door window so that Amtrak would get the message.
BTW I believe that untill recently you could open the windows on the Amfleet I's and stick your head out to take pictures. Now most of the cars have little metal latches screwed into the frome. My crazy friend from Englande unscrewed them and opened it. When a conductor came by he flashed some lamo saftey card he got from his asst. train director job and the conductr left him alone.
Two thoughts, one you are correct about the air in CUS/ In the short term(don't even think about the cost of electirication of all of the routes into CUS even if only from the city limits) at the very least a serious vent system is long overdue. as to the noise--if EPA ever gets its act together...(remember this issue when you hear complaints about EPA being too strict--those diesels are "grandfathered kinda lke a 1970 Dodge Polara with a 440)
Two--nit picky as it is AND I always strive for a trackside window, you should describe the clearly lsame behaviour of the attendant and file with their guaranteed satisfaction folks because the "experience" id what they are claiming to market. LOL
>>> Amtrak is trying to give some sort of "Airport" feel with "gates" and "terminals" and some guy ckecking your "boarding pass" (ticket). It's a laugh <<<
Mike;
What's the problem with gates and terminals? And where do think the idea of those things in airports (and bus terminals) came from? Main line railroading is not a subway.
I remember traveling on the 20th Century Limited from Grand Central Terminal in the late 40s. When I got my ticket there was an assigned seat, and a choice between smoking and non-smoking cars. Most people had friends and family seeing them off at the station. Since you didn't want to miss your train, which left promptly at the advertized time, most people came early and those leaving and their well wishers would sit around in the waiting rooms until the departure gate was ammounced. Passengers were dressed in their Sunday best clothing. Train loading was announced at least ˝ hour before departure, and passengers would say goodbye at the gates and proceed to the assigned car and find their seats. Nobody had wheels on their luggage at that time, and most had red caps bringing their luggage to the train. Because I was a minor traveling alone, my father was allowed to accompany me onto the platform and to be sure I was in my right seat. He also tipped the conductor and the porter to keep an eye on me and make sure I got off at the correct station the next morning.
Tom
Can I just tell you how jealous I am that you got to ride the 20th Century? Being a kid, you probably had no idea how significant the service level was. Your dad probably expected it. You can't find anything like that service level on any type of transportation today. BTW, did you ever ride the Broadway Limited? You probably remember Penn Station too, don't you! I know where I'd go if they ever invented a time-machine.
KP
I road the Broadway in 1994 b4 Amtrak phazed it out.
>>> You can't find anything like that service level on any type of transportation today <<<
Pete;
It was in the ‘70s that I last rode on them, so I do not know if they have deteriorated since then, but I was extremely impressed with the TEE in Europe. I rode on those trains in Italy, France, Germany and Spain. Each had its own national character, but all were fast, clean, comfortable, and both station and on board personnel were courteous and efficient.
The 20th Century Limited is the only American train that stands out in my mind. I enjoyed being able to go back to the club car to purchase a coke and sit there sipping it with all the adult passengers with their mixed drinks. My memory of Pittsburgh sticks with me also. It was late night when the train got there, but the area was lit with a red glow and flames and smoke from the area steel mills. I thought at the time that this must be what Hell looked like.
I do remember what Penn Station looked like because sometimes I took the LIRR to Flushing rather than the subway. Unfortunately it was in the evening when I went through the station, so the effect of the light pouring in during the daytime was lost.
Tom
old tom... your imagery of what pittsburgh was like at night in its hey-day is wonderful... i have a picture book of pittsburgh and there is a picture of the city during the daytime, when the sky was dark and the street lights were on due to all the smoke... are there any documentaries about those days in pittsburgh?... i would love to see some video footage of that city, especially of what you described at night...
in the last year or so, pbs had a documentary on the drought and dust storms that plaqued the midwest during the depression years... there was one scene when clouds of dust that were pitch black blew into a town that was absolutely awesome and frightening... it really seemed like the end had come...
from what i have heard but not seen, modern day mexico city is very much like old pittsburgh...
>>> there was one scene when clouds of dust that were pitch black blew into a town that was absolutely awesome and frightening <<<
Paul;
Although it was not a documentary, the 1976 film Bound for Glory had a great scene of an approaching dust storm. Even though some movie magic was used in the scene it is really impressive.
I did have the opportunity to see and experience a real sand storm. When flying into Cairo on a military version of a DC-6 we could could see a sand storm on the horizon through the windshield. It was a brown curtain reaching up into the sky on the other side of the city.
The following day the sandstorm hit the city. Visibility was cut to about 100 yards, but if I opened my eyes wide, I got sand in them and had to close them and force tears to wash out the sand. The only practical way to walk around outside was to squint my eyes to the smallest slit possible and hope my eyelashes kept the sand out. It was necessary to breathe through a handkerchief to prevent sand from going into my nose and mouth. I was away from my hotel when the sandstorm arrived, and it was difficult to return. By the time I got back, I had sand in my hair, down the back of my shirt and in my shoes. I did not venture out of the hotel again until the storm cleared the next day.
Tom
Commuters can put up with it precisely because, being commuters, they tend to pass through the station without having time to inhale. Amtrak passengers have it harder; even so, they're better off than under the pre-renovation version of CUS, as it existed from about 1972 until the present redaction was completed in the mid-1990s. At least now there's a fairly adequate Amtrak waiting area within striking distance of the gates.
The main waiting room is a magnificant Romanesque public space, but it doesn't see much pedestrian through traffic, since it's on the far side of the concourse from the Loop.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The real problem with "gates" is that a whole train-load of people has to pass through a single door. This causes congestion and increases loading time significantly.
I am somewhat excited to go back to skool tomorrow. One reason being cause I miss everybody and its my senior year, meaning I am so close to being able to become a Motorman sometime soon! Also I am Very excited, because I have not gone Railfanning since the R142 on the 2 entered service. Tomorrow I wanna ride the R142 between 96 to Chambers. I heard that it can reach 60. Is this true? Even the Redbirds I saw reach 55 on that stretch.
From Pelham Bay Dave JR
My SR year was great last year since most of my friends where in my classes. The only pain was doing the graduation Project that was 5 Pages and a 15-Hour research paper. I Decided to make it fun by doing it on the career of a NYCT Conductor. I did lots of Interviews and researched old newspapers. Used some of the Bulletins as references and other stuff. Then I had to get up in front of the class of 32 other Students and 3 Teachers Two of those I invited. My dad even came to watch my 13-minute speech on Transit. When it was all over I got a 100 on it. Everyone enjoyed it. I went to School in the Poconos so this was new to a lot of people who never rode a Subway train. I graduated in June and now doing a lot of riding the rails right now.
I got my results on the Conductors exam and it looks real good for me right now.
PBD JR
60 is a bit unrealistic, IMHO, even on the 7th Ave. straightaway between 34th and 14th. OTOH, that A train I took from Howard Beach to Broad Channel in July of 1969 came mighty close.
When I rode the cable cars in San Francisco, I already knew how they work. There's a cable running under the street, and the car grabs the cable and it moves. Alright then, how do the switches work? I saw a worker get off the cable car and pull a lever to make the track switch, but how the the cable work? I have a feeling that all the switches are downhill, so the cable car justs rolls to the other track. Are all the swiches on downhill grades? Also, at the intersection between the California and Powell lines, these two line cross at 90 degrees. Where do the cables under the streets go? How can a cable car go across this intersection without interfering with the other cable it crosses?
I hope you understand what I just asked.
The switches, IIRC, are as you have guessed. Gravity (or muscle pwer, or the continued motion of the car) allow it go over the switch if neccesary. As for the intersection, my guess would be that the gripman releases the cable, and allows the car to roll through.
-Hank
Rob--
See the San Francisco Cable Car Museum Web site. It has many of the answers, as well as links to books and videos you can buy with much more information.
Your observations are largely correct. Gravity is essential to the use of cable car switches. The Gripman must let go of the rope, release the brakes, roll over the switch and engage the rope on the other side. The rope is then fished up into the grip at a TAKE ROPE sign through the use of a hooked iron and the grip begins to vibrate from the rope running through it. At places where a cable car must take a switch, a LET GO sign is painted on the pavement. When a switch is thrown one rail and the grip slot must be thrown together. Once the gripman has taken rope, there are the options of standing still with the rope running through the grip or gripping the rope to provide forward motion.
When two cable car lines cross, the line that was built to the intersection first has the "superior rope" and may proceed with its grip on the rope. The inferior line (Powell cars are inferior to California St. cars in San Francisco) must LET GO with enough speed to cross the other line, then come to a full stop at the TAKE ROPE sign on the other side of the crossing to bring the rope back up into the grip. The inferior line's rope goes under the other through the use of sheaves which drop it and raise it to grip position again. Any time a car does not roll far enough to reach the TAKE ROPE position, the crew gets out and literally pushes the car to it.
Besides at track switches, cable car lines switch to new ropes from time to time. The ropes run in multiple directions from a power house. New York's Broadway cable, for instance, had three ropes - one from Bowling Green to about 13th Street, another low speed rope around "Deadman's Curve" at Union Square, and a third rope north of Union Square. New York's Madison Avenue line, with its gentle hills and straight alignment, had the longest rope in the world at 43,700 feet! All switchbacks were on the hills.
On Powell St at Callifornia, there is a "hump" to give the Powell car momentum to cross. Generally they are protected by traffic lights (auto and rail), but sometimes they have to stop anyway because of some fool driver.
Another scenario which I've witnessed is the "Loose Rope" scenario. The car coasts to a stop, and the conductor feverishly cranks the hand brake in the rear, while blowing a whistle to warn cars that they are moving in reverse. On steep hills it can take a while to stop!
When the SF trolley fest was just starting, the Council Crest car was running with hand brakes _only_. We had just left 17th and Market and were heading downhill twoards Church, when this woman jaywalked in front of the car. The motorman, put every ounce of strength into slamming that handle around and the car stopped inched from the pedestrian, who never once looked up at the oncoming car. As the motorman leaned against the hand brake, panting, someone observed, "that hand brake cable must be stretched a mile long now!!"
I guess SF also has candidates for the Darwin Award.
Do they still use a steel wedge as an emergency brake? In the olden days, if the wedge was applied, they'd have to literally use a torch to get it out of the slot.
Yes, a wedge is the emergency brake. It was the last of all last resorts! Accidents were usually preferred. The use of the wedge frequently broke or badly damaged the cable, causing the entire line to stop for quite some time. Cars on the line running in full grip stopped quite abruptly. After the wedge was removed, they had to find both ends of the cable under the street, pull them together and put on a temporary splice. Lots of horses were involved in bringing the cable ends together in some situations. The rope was then run slowly until the temporary splice got to the powerhouse. There a very long splice was put in. While all this was happening, the system was "down" with the cable cars sitting dead in the middle of traffic for hours on end, sometimes for a day. Sounds like computer networks today, eh?
Theoretically, it wouldn't be as bad today, as each of the three lines has its own motor. One line could be down and the other two could still be running. Before the system was rebuilt, a single motor ran all of the cables.
Sounds like the motorman didn't have the slack pulled up in the brake linkage and the hand brake chain. If you don't do that, an emergency stop is almost an impossible mission. If the slack is pulled up, 2 1/2 turns of the brake handle is usually enough to stop quickly and smoothly.
What you reported is a sign of an improperly trained motorman operating a hand brake car.
Amen! You've got to have that cable at the operating end, thus requiring only a few turns to bring it to full braking.
I believe one of the track maps on this site has something about there being a 29th St. station on the new 63rd St connection between 21st St/Queensbridge and 36th St. Is this a fact? If there is such a station being built, will it connect to Queens Plaza and/or Queensboro Plaza?
I'm sort of hoping such a station could provide a needed connection between the two.
Andrew
No. It doesn't exist. The object of the 63st connection is to avoid the congestion at Queens Plaza.
-Hank
I don't mean a track connection. I mean a transfer point.
...but now that I look at the track map I see I must have been wrong. What I thought was a planned station stop appears to be an electrical station.
Uh, carry on.
:)Andrew
Such a station would be redundant, as it would be a mere 2 blocks east of the Astoria el.
Who's resposible for making 'Autumn in New York' at Shoreline on Yom Kippur?
-Hank
I'll bet the person who set this up in the schedule didn't even realize it. It's usually Columbus Day Weekend, and it just so happens, this year Yom Kippur falls out on Columbus Day.
--Mark
Must have been a Goyim (that's a Non-Jew for those who aren't).
But I agree with Mark, the fact that it falls on the Columbus Day holiday may have caused some confusion.
Goyim would be multiple Non-jews. When referring to one, it would be a goy.
What do you mean by "at Shoreline"?
He means the Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT.
-Stef
Have I mixed up my museums again?
-Hank
First ... God Bless You.
Second, no you have the right Sea/Shore
Mr t__:^)
Click here to see what I mean.
I see it and nearly followed the West End Line to Coney Island.
Yes, I looked at the map.
Is the structure still standing or not.
This map was revised by photo recon, and the generally only add buildings (shown in purple) but do not take things away, unless it is obvious from the recon photo is gone. If the structure is still standing then the map was correct. Also just because the map was reprinted in '95 does not mean that the photo used for that printing was taken then.
Elias
The structure has been gone for years.
That structure be no more.
Click to see it in service and its demise.
The structure has been gone since the mid 80's, although the "Culver Shuttle Man" tried to take it, a few weeks ago.
Culver Shuttle Man?
Not only that....the topo map still shows the Myrtle Avenue el, razed in 1970. Scroll over and take a peek.
Notwithstanding, those topo maps are excellent and show detail that Hagstrom can't. I was surprised to know they were posted online!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Notwithstanding, those topo maps are excellent and show detail that Hagstrom can't. I was surprised to know they were posted online!
If you want to see what a topo map can be, see if you can find an Ordnance Survey map from Great Britain. They put the U.S. junk to shame.
I have come across a lightbulb in my stuff that I don't remember. I have no idea where it came from.
It is a standard base GE bulb with regular thread (not reverse), that reads "Train- Rough Service - 50W - 75V."
75V? It certainly couldn't be a subway bulb, could it?
I would think that the 75V means 75 volt. Do the railroads use a 75V electrical lighting system?
I have had the bulb for at least 30 years, maybe longer!
Perhaps it is for a series circuit of 8 bulbs? Would a Q or Lo-V have circuits like this?
72-78VDC is a common diesel locomotive voltage
If it has standard (right-hand) threads, and at that voltage, I'd guess it is a locomotive bulb. If it looks like a regular light bulb, my best guess is that it came from the number indicators on a diesel or electric -- or maybe engine room lights. Railroad locomotives have 74 volt electrical systems. There is a thread on this topic going on right now at a rail-oriented newsgroup:
misc.transport.rail-americas
You may have to check in DejaNews to find it, as the past few days the topic has disappeared.
The bulbs in the IND R-1/9 series cars had left-handed threads, but I think they were normal voltage. The wrong-way threading was supposed to foil light bulb thieves.
The bulbs in the IND R-1/9 series cars had left-handed threads, but I think they were normal voltage. The
wrong-way threading was supposed to foil light bulb thieves.
They have left-hand sockets, but it is to prevent exploding bulbs.
These cars have both 120V (5 in a string) bulbs for main lighting
and 32V bulbs for battery lights. The battery bulbs are left-handed
so they aren't accidentally put into the 120V sockets.
I believe the use of left-hand 120V sockets was earlier in the
century when lightbulbs were very costly.
The R1-9 had all 22 bulbs in series; 30 volts each. hey automatically shorted when burned out to continue the circuit thru. When too many were burned out and they were real bright as you may recall because each bulb got too much voltage, the whole car went dark.
The 5-in-a -series was on older stuff like els, LO V, Hi V , AB etc except when AB's were rebuilt they also got the R1-9 system.
Locomotives do have a 74 volt system, so the 75V bulb isn't for transit cars.
Yes, I'm sorry, the main lighting on the R1-9 cars is the 1930s-style
30V self-shorting bulbs. The marker and end sign lighting is
5 in a row (plus a ballast resistor to dim the bulbs and make
them last longer).
The only transit cars I'm aware of that used a 72-ish volt system
were the H&M cars, at least 503 in Branford's collection does.
How about the lights in the R-1/9 sign boxes? My sign box still has the lower sign lighting still intact and functional, and the sockets are wired in series. I had to use 75-watt bulbs to get the equivalent illumination I rememeber seeing on those cars.
The route sign uses two 120V bulbs in series (part of a string
of 4). The destination sign is a pair of 32V battery bulbs
in parallel.
IIRC it was still a 5-lamp circuit, a pattern which continued on right thru the R38. 2-lamps route, 2 lamps color markers, one lamp local OR express. As you say the destination sign was 2 -battery lights, which were to be extinguished when that car was on the rear and illuminated on the head end.
Also IIRC I was on H&M cars that had 125 Volt bulbs in series, they were kinder than NYCT which had 130V bulbs and burned dimmer but lasted longer. I'd guess the 72V power was for aux.lights, control etc???
Hint folks: beware of buying extended service bulbs; they last longer because they're made for a somewhat higher voltage but you get a lot less light and its yerllowish; not much of a bargain. That's why NYCT incandescent lighting on stations and the old trains was dim!
You must be referring to the bulkhead signs. I was curious about the side signs. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I use 25-watt bulbs for backlighting my bulkhead signs.
I regret to say that I can't recall what the side sign circuit
is on R1-9 circuits, but I can look it up for you.
Thanks. I'm pretty sure the bulbs for the lower sign are in series, possibly with other bulbs as well. There were two wires sticking out of the conduit opening when I bought the sign box, with just enough slack so that I was able to install a plug.
Here's the scoop: There are 4 bulbs in each side sign box, two
for the lower sign and two for the upper. Which one is illuminated
is determined by the reverse key position and the changeover
switch in each car. There are 2 sign boxes per car. The 4 lower
bulbs are in a series string off the 600V with an 800 ohm ballast
resistor (to compensate for the missing 5th bulb). Identical
circuit for the upper bulbs. The bulbs used are 130V, 36W street
railway bubls with normal thread. Suggestion for home use:
rewire the sockets to be in parallel, and use 25W refrigerator
light bulbs.
09/11/2000
[Suggestion for home use:
rewire the sockets to be in parallel, and use 25W refrigerator
light bulbs.]
Jeff, Those refrigerator bulbs you mentioned are 40 watts. I don 't recall any 25 watt types around.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, you've been spending too much time in the refrigerator!
I'm pretty sure 25 watt "appliance bulbs" exist as well.
Either one should be fine in Steve B's signbox.
To my knowledge regular bulbs are available in 25,40,60,75, 100 watts so no problem either way.
I'm pretty sure 25 watt "appliance bulbs" exist as well.
Among other wattages. My big Maytag (yes, they make refrigerators too) has a 25w in the refrigerator section and a 17.5w in the freezer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has the Maytag repair man ever paid you a visit?:-)
All too many times. When we purchased this house in December 1997 we replaced all of the appliances, installing a Jenn-Aire electric stove (made by Maytag), a Maytag refrigerator, dishwasher, and disposal unit, and a Maytag Neptune front-loading washer and dryer (in the kitchen too as we have only a wet stone cellar). The dishwasher had to have the door hinges replaced during the first six months (but since then has been trouble-free) and the refrigerator has been a pain in the you-know-where. The original door was warped, and it took the appliance store three tries to get one that wasn't; the lower freezer shelf is a very poor design and sags badly in the middle. And we've had several other minor problems with it, although it has never failed to cool. On the plus side, the refrigerator compartment is very well laid out, the stove (a smooth-top) with convention oven is the nicest we've ever owned, the dishwasher and disposal are great, and the washer and dryer are incredible. (We also have a Maytag top-loading washer in our North Carolina house that we purchased in 1987 that has been trouble-free as well.) So yes, we know our local Maytag man by name. Fortunately, everything has been covered under the warranty - even the replacement ice cube trays.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the scoop. As I previously mentioned, I put a pair of 75-watt bulbs in the lower sign light fixtures, and the illumination approaches the degree of brightness I remember seeing on the R-1/9s. I have contemplated rewiring those fixtures in parallel, and may do so someday. The upper sign illumination is improvised - I've got one of those multitap strips running along the top of the box with two plug-in style lamp sockets. 15-watt bulbs provide more than enough illumination; in fact, they're a bit brighter than the 75-watt bulbs in the lower sign fixtures.
Eddie Sarkauskas explained to me that most of the upper sign light fixtures on the R-1/9s were fastened to the car side itself, and not the sign box. One exception was the sign box on display in the former roll sign shop at Shoreline before it was closed. He said he would look into finding upper fixture parts for my sign box (this was 20 years ago), and I gave him my address in Colorado, but I never heard from him. No big deal.
Thanks to all who responded to my questions in this thread. It hasn't jogged my memory any, but I was an avid camera toting railfan starting in the mid-1960's, spending many hours around and on diesels.
Incidentally, the bulb is apparently burned-out. I wired it up in series with a regular home lightbulb (I know this is a primative method), and could not even get a glow out of either bulb. The home lightbulb is good!
I guess that I have been saving a burned-out railroad lightbulb these many years.
I went railfanning after a date with my girlfriend. I rode with a Familiar face on the 7. From watching him operate the 7 from Vernon-blvd Jackson Avenue all the way to 74th to catch the E Train. When I got on the Train at Vernon blvd, I was walkin down to the 11th car mark, and this guy told me the 7 Train is only 10 cars now. I was like yeah, but I heard its 11 again. The Train came in proving me right as My good friend stop 9663 at the 11th marker.
I was able to get some pics of the De30 cabs and a Cab of a C-3 cab car. I looked at the controlls. But are the brakes applied in a similar manner of a Subway train say an R33? where the operator pulls the handle about 40lbs of air, then knocks of 10, pulls 15 then knocks 10 more off, then a full 80, then down to 20? Or does the Diesel have their own different braking?
There are several people who can give you a much better answer than I can (at least until I ride in the cab later this week). One major difference is that you have two brake controls. One is a trainline brake. The other applies only the brakes on the loco. Also, there is a 'lap' position on the brake valve (which is standard). There is also a 'hold' position which I can't recall seeing on other locos.
LAP? on a modern locomotive?
LAP is probably just the nuteral brake position. The brake handle is probably self-lapping and the engineer dosen't have to move it back to LAP to get a LAP effect.
On the way down from Croton on MN, I saw 4 trainsets of 5 cars each (R142s) at the Yonkers yard. All lights and electronic displays were on. The trains were signed 5,6 & 7.
By the way, the MN train wrong railed most of the way down.
--Peter
Unit numbers?
wayne
Those are R142As.
running on...
or
Decided to take things slow today. I took the bus to Flushing and then the 7 train to Willets Point.
It was busy there, since the U.S. Open was there. They had set up a temporary fare control with bus fareboxes.
I walked on over to the Unisphere. But it was a very interesting walk. Casey Stengal bus depot is on your left, and on your right, the Corona Yards. I saw lots of Redbirds from the walkway above, as well as a yellow track inspection car and that car EP015 that I saw on Queens BLVD awhile back.
The rail yard is quite nice. It may be smaller than Stilwell, but it has a very cozy feel to it. I also saw a train "park" in the yard.
It's amazing how close they can park those trains, without hitting them. Also passed over the LIRR station. There were four tracks, but only the north platforms were being used.
The park itself is beautiful. It's very clean, and who would know that you are right next to Flushing!
There was a cool breeze and sunny skies, and the Unisphere was beautiful. I never realized there was such a cool spray in the air from the fountains, I needed that on some hot days. I spent a few hours walking around the place.
It's one of the most beautiful public parks I've seen, much nicer (and easier to get to by transit) than Eisenhour park in Nassau.
I'll be back in the fall when the leaves start changing color. The reds and yellows will blend in nicely with the Redbirds!
Of course when I got back to Flushing it was much different, hotter and smellier. Who would know such a paradise could exist so close to a "dump" of a downtown!
Well I for one am glad that you had a pleasent day riding public transit. I also hope your Fall trip will be just as enjoyable.
I've had many very nice trips on public transit the past couple of years, e.g. to Long Beach from Main Street ... to Coney Island ... to Newark NJ, etc.
Mr t__:^)
Maybe I can squeeze in a trip out to Flushing Meadow Park this fall on a 7 and walk around (what do you think, Wayne?). We have a photo of my mother, my sister, and me by the Unisphere during our visit to the World's Fair on July 20, 1965. I've seen the Unisphere since then - from my plane window as we're getting ready to land at LGA - but haven't been to the park since that day. Of course, I've been to Shea several times to see the Mets.
Even though downtown Flushing is horrible, don't let it scare you. Flushing Meadows Corona Park is absolutely beautiful.
Perhaps there should be a Subtalk trip to the Corona Yards and Flushing Meadows Park. And actually this park borders two yards, IRT Corona and IND Queens BLVD, an especially interesting place for a railfan.
But that topo map I linked to the other day labels the Jamaica Yard with "IRT Yard!" No label for the Corona Yard.
[Who would know such a paradise could exist so close to a "dump" of a downtown!]
You haven't smelled the Flushing River at low tide. Sometimes its name is appropriate not because of its proximity to downtown, but because it looks (and smells) like it came from the back end of a toilet! (EEEEW! AND YOU CAN SMELL IT FROM INSIDE THE TRAIN! YUCK!)
I guess that's how Flushing got its name: they smelled the river and thought it was the back end of a toilet and called it "Flushing."
[It was busy there, since the U.S. Open was there. They had set up a temporary fare control with bus fareboxes.]
When they have that set up, Flushing-bound 7 trains act like they're on the middle track at Main Street. Open the set of doors facing the tennis, then open the set facing Shea.
BTW, I'm only kidding about the toilet jokes above.
Yeah, sometimes I take a step away from the front while crossing the Flushing river, because it smells like sewage.
Flushing is a very appropriate name for NYC's biggest toilet!
Also my favorite song for the Brighton express is "From a Moving Train" by America. Everytime I see the slants that song plays in my head.
Ok, it's time to vent some frustrations so here I go:
Things I hate:
1) R-68As: I would like to meet the numbskull who devised the braking system on these moving Budweiser cans. I know that most of you don't know what I'm talking about so I'll give you a small example. Imagine that when you drive your car, when you press the brake pedal, the brakes don't kick in until 3 seconds after you hit the pedal.Boy, I wouldn't wanna see your insurance bill! Well that's exactly how the R-68As(and the R-68s after linkage in 4 car sets) brake. And don't release the brakes too soon as you come up to the 10 car mark or you'll sail right out of the station cause you'll get that same delay for the brakes to apply again.Wheeeeeeeee!
2)THE PEOPLE WHO CREATE THE CREW RUNS: Do these people think we are made of iron? Geez. 3 round trips on the C, 4 trips on the E, 5 OPTO trips on the G on weekends, any trips on the R, and let's not forget the most famous of all; 5 TRIPS ON THE L. WHAT SADIST CAME UP WITH THIS @#$%&*!?
3)THE E TRAIN: There's 3 things that I hate about this line.
One- You're underground all day. Wow! It's such a beautiful fall day outside, about 75 degrees, picture postcard perfect! But you wouldn't know that if you're working the E. Heck, you don't even know if the sun is still out. Fresh air? Fuhgedaboudit. After being underground all day for 4 trips, you inhale so much steel dust that when you blow your nose, it comes out all black(not that I look that often).
Two-R-32 equipment. A chiropractor's dream. No back support on the seat so you're hunched over the controls all day, you have to put up a shoe slipper to support your feet and in the winter time when the cab heater is on, you give yourself a nice little burn on your right leg when you sit normally. It may sound trivial but if you had to do it, you would know what I mean.
Three-The homeless. Rather self explanatory. Can't make a run without hearing someone asking for change. And what's that scent? Violets perhaps? No, it's some homeless guy who hasn't seen a bar of soap since the Reagan administration and he's engulfing your car and there's no escape. Where's a can of Raid when you need one?
Things I love:
1)R-38s. God, I hope when I die that they will have these trains up in heaven. The trains stop on a dime and make change,they have very quiet cabs so that you don't go deaf while trying to make a trip, and they have the only A/C vents in the cabs that actually work. You want it on or off? Nooooo problem. And they're very comfortable to operate too. The motormen on the A love the R-38s. Picture this, you are a motorman at 207 St. and it's time to make your run downtown.............to Far Rockaway.............against the wall(local all the way baby).............. and there are two trains in the station, one a R-44 and one a R-38 and the dispatcher says that you can choose which one you want. There isn't a motorman who wouldn't hesitate to sell his conductor's soul for that R-38. Myself included (oh by the way, C/R's hate R-38s)
2)THE J TRAIN. I know, I know, everyone complains about the timers(signals) but dig this; you're outside all day so that you can crack your window and enjoy the warm days and some fresh air(doesn't apply during the winter), the passenger capacity is very light compared to most other lines,3 trips is a very decent work load, and the supervision is cool as a cucumber in the shade. Can't ask for more than that.
3)NOT BEING A CONDUCTOR ANYMORE. If they offered to make me the number one man on the seniority list to go back to c/r, I'd tell them to stick it. It's great not having to deal with kids who try to spit at you, throw bottles at you(not just kids are guilty of any of this),passengers who have a vendetta against the TA and see you as the TA pincushion, and lets not forget pointing at the station indicator board and wearing those doofy safety glasses (how c/r's are able to still get phone numbers from women while wearing something that makes them look like Urkel still boggles my mind.)
Thanks for listening but it's time to stop. My keyboard is starting to smoke.
Your point 2 on scheduling brings to mind a friend (avid railfan) who retired from Tastykake in February at age 59 after 40 years on the job and took a job as Conductor on CSX, which is still hiring. He had no trouble passing the tests, since his railfan interests had him informed on most of the stuff conductors need to know. He resigned in August after working 27 consecutive days with no respite in sight. He was tired.
Add to that [if CSX does like BNSF, MRL etc where I worked for years]spending your life on call, laying over more at your distant terminal than at home, going out [often from home] on 8 hours rest which means between washing up, eating, unwinding in front of the TV maybe, getting 5 hours sleep. As you said..can't get a day off, then working holidays [I don't mind working some, not Christmas], when you're raising a family missing all the stuff they want you to be there for; being told you'll go out at 7 AM or so and get called for midnight and have been up all day on the info the crew office gave you; or expecting a call for 5 or 6 PM and it falls down to midnight or 2-3 AM and you can't rest because you're expecting a call.Yes, the money in freight service is the best in railroading but you pay for it in blood. Do I miss the trains and running...yes. Do I miss the job itself..hell no. They can't prove to me that they don't know when the trains will run. And I don't mean only on the X-board, I mean when you're on a regular "turn". It stinks, and it's unsafe.
Regarding the R-32's - quite often I see someone operating these while standing up. From your post, I gather it's because of the poor seats.
But the top of the list has to be the T/O I saw the other evening who changed ends at the WTC on the E and opened the cab, only to find a rat in the cab!
Do you find the passengers to vary in friendliness depending on the line? I take the E frequently, and whenever I'm waiting for the E late at night (Union Turnpike, 71st, Roosevelt, or QP) I usually see an F come in first. When it pulls out, I wave to the C/R as the middle car goes by. I almost always get a wave back, and only once have I seen the C/R duck back as though afraid I was going to throw something. Of course, since I'm up at the 10 mark at stations that have a lot of employees, maybe they assume I'm one.
I've seen Redbird cabs on the Flushing line and those seats look really uncomfortable. I've seen alot of 7 T/O's stand.
What you see on those trains is basically what was on all trains from the R1-9 up to the R42in my days. And the AB's, original IRT, etc were not much different. There were no chairs per se that I remember until the R44 came out.
"There were no chairs per se that I remember until the R44 came out"
Do you remember the old Divco milk trucks?
Can you imagine standing to drive a truck?
Remember that transit equipment in NYC predates the automobile, and so no one ever *thought* of sitting. One stood to drive a trolley car, and one stood to drive a subway train. The bench always seemed to be an after thought. And when I was railfanning back in the 60s, I thought how nice that they had a little thing to sit down on once in a while.
Remember, on the LIRR, the cab was in the vestibule, and when it was not being used as a cab, it was being used as a enterance and exit for the train car. So you simply had to get that seat contraption out of there.
Elias
Much like loco's it was almost impossible to run a BMT AB type standing; I tried to once in a while because sitting too long was an annoyance; yes I remember the Divco trucks (in my case a friend on a Bond Bread route) but don't remember the driver having to stand, but I'm sure you're right.
Not only the LIRR had vestibule cabs [among other "big" railroads, so did the IRT and the Chi. North Shore, Milw, others yet .] The Old IRT cars had a fold up wood seat and on the North Shore the M/M brought his own stool. Oh well, nobody died from it. Likewise when running loco's, or R44/46 often I wished I could stand up fora while, my crummy back didn't like either position too long.
The drivers of the Freihoffers bread trucks in Philly and South Jersey also stood up, as did the motormen (much more recently) on the 160 series Strafford cars on the Red Arrow (and SEPTA) P&W unless they furnished their own stool.
Alfred Hitchcock's "Rear Window" was on last night (Fri, 9/8) on AMC. At the very beginning of the film, the camera pans up and down and back and forth throughout the courtyard, which is the focus of most of the movie. At one point, it pans to an alleyway, which leads to the street. In the long-shot, a white-uniformed milkman enters his truck, and just begins to pull away from the curb standing up! It's only a split-second before the milkman and truck are out-of-frame. It's too hard to tell, but this must be one of those "Divco" trucks you mention. I had only coincidentally read this thread yesterday.
BTW, I'm pretty sure the movie was filmed on a hollywood soundstage, and not actually in Greenwich Village.
>>> Do you remember the old Divco milk trucks?
Can you imagine standing to drive a truck? <<<
Although I do not recognize the name "Divco", back in the ‘50s when home delivery of milk and bread was common, many of the home delivery trucks were made for standup operation. Usually they had some kind of a seat that folded away so that the driver could sit if he was traveling any long distance, but when he was on his route traveling about 50-100 feet between stops it was much easier to board and remain standing for the for the minute it took to move the vehicle. These vehicles were replacements for horse drawn delivery vehicles which were even more efficient. With the horse drawn vehicles, the milkman would get six to twelve quarts of milk from his wagon in a carrying basket, and go from house to house delivering milk and picking up empty bottles. As he moved down the street, the horse would follow along, so when he had to return to the vehicle for more bottles, it had caught up with him and he did not have to backtrack to reach it.
Even today in areas where trash pickup is made by single operator trucks there is frequently a standup operating position on the right side of the cab in addition to the regular driving position, so the driver can move from trash can to trash can and quickly step off to load the truck.
Tom
Although I might be mistaken but I seem to remember those brown UPS trucks being driven standing up years ago.
[how c/r's are able to still get phone numbers from women while wearing something that makes them look like Urkel still boggles my mind.]
Its easy to see how they get numbers-Civil service is still a decent income with pension and child support is NOW 19%!!!
Boy, you nailed that one right on the head!!
Well I don't like R68's (Hippos) because they are hard to stop and slow to accelerate. I do love the E train though. So it's all underground. That's why they call it the subway. The R32's on the E are just fine, with a nice front window and pretty good ride. They are in alot better shape than Redbirds.
Everytime I ride the subway I get some steel dust in my nose. But there's nothing like the different smells of the tunnels getting the breeze in from the front window.
And the dust in the nose can be annoying, but when I ride diesel buses
the soot is much worse.
Also about the E, I've been seeing more R46's on there lately. Even though they don't have a front window, they are quiet and quick and great cars.
"Well I don't like R68's (Hippos) because they are hard to stop and slow to accelerate"
I suppose that if you listen to the people wo don't get to operate the R-68s, you'd believe this. However, why don't ask the motormen/train operators about the R-68s. You might get a totally different viewpoint. I speak to the people who operate the equipment every day and they perfer the R-68s to virtually every other contract of car except the R-46. Incidently, the R-46 and R-68 have the same brake system.
TRUST ME ON THIS. The R-68A's are the absolute worst as far as braking the train. The acceleration is actually very good but stopping is an absolute headache. The R-68's brakes were made much worse during the conversion to 4 car units but they are not quite as bad as the R-68A's. As far as the R-46's go, most motormen(in the south section) simply do not like the one controller operation. They would rather deal with the R-68 so that they can use both hands. Personally, I think operating the R-46 is a piece of cake but that's only my opinion.
The R-68A has always had the problem where if you ease off on the SAP as you stop, they'll run away from you as the dynamic fades. The R-68 has much better blending and this doesn't happen. We did switch from the NYAB electric self lapper to the WABCO self lapper on the R-68s during SMS (linking) and they do have more of an R-68A feel but they are still vastly superior to the R-68A. Personally, I perfer the single handle controller and I find the R-46 the easiest & most comfortable to operate. The worst part of the R-68 is the train operator seat - tres' uncomfortable.
Why is the braking ability of an R-68 an issue? It can't be too hard to stop from a maximum speed of five mph.
:-o
It's hard to get a Hippo started, and hard to get one to stop.
Avoid them if possible (I do)
Imagine that when you drive your car, when you press the brake pedal, the brakes don't kick in until 3 seconds after you hit the pedal
You don't have to imagine this.
Thomas, the school bus manufacturer, is sending out repair kits to school districts for buses manufactured between 1998 and about a month or so ago to correct problems with brakes ... they may not engage for 3 seconds or so when the brake pedal is pressed and certain conditions are met (and I do not know what they are). It was just on the news.
--Mark
Well at least Thomas is doing something about it unlike the TA with it's R-68A's. I've clenched my butt cheeks so many times (hoping the brakes would kick in) that my rear end is the only part of my body in shape. :)
When I was a conductor in l965-66 we had 4 on the E to 179, that was a damn good day's work, 4 GG's out of Continental..now that was a step from slavery (but guess I could have been a dishwasher or working in a factory); 2 1/2 on the RR (in my motorman days); but when you came up with 5 on the L that's cruelty. We did 4 and t/c but usually had no t/c.
Yes, I always liked the J because it was outdoors, and for a time had lots of R9's.
As for the R38's they must have improved the braking and somehow made them quieter because when I ran them the braking was awful and the cabs were noisy. Good to hear some comparisons with what I remember.
Hey BigE- Just thought I'd give you a little synopsis of our current crew runs in the B division (I can't speak for the IRT cause I haven't been there since '94). Look and compare 1966 to now:
A-2 trips(usually one each to Lefferts and Far Rock).
B-2 trips(one to 145 and one to Bed.Pk.Blvd.). Later PM crews also make a 3rd trip to Queensbridge.
C-2 trips and a lay-up/put-in or 3 trips with no lay-up/put-in.
D-2 trips.
E-3 or 4 trips.
F-2 trips.
G-3 trips normally(one job still does 4).Weekends it's one person operation with 5 trips from Court Sq.(ugh!).
H(Rock Pk.)-9,10 or 11 OPTO trips to Broad Channel spur depending on the job.
J-3 trips(some jobs on weekends do 4 to Chambers).
L-4 or 5 trips(senior jobs have 3 trips with a put-in AND layup).
M-Most jobs do 4 trips(1 to Bay Pkwy. and 3 to Chambers).
N-2 trips.
Q-3 trips but some senior jobs do 4 trips for the $$$.
R-2 trips.
S(Franklin Av)-21,22 or 23 OPTO trips depending on the job(BLOOD MONEY).
P.S. Too bad about that freight job. To me, some things just aren't worth the $$$.
Sound somewhat similar to my days, 1967-77 as amotorman except for a few lines..4 on the E or J too much, likewise 5 on the L. Gad when I worked Franklin we did 15 trips, Culver shuttle was 19. Either one bored me sick; now its anout 50% more On Franklin and OPTO. Yuk. So they finally put ina Broad Channel spur after all these years? I was wondering when all those deadhead miles to Howard Beach and back [ I should say LIGHT miles]instead of turning in a spur at Broad Channel would be eliminated.
They installed the Broad Channel spur less than a year ago and when they did, they increased the amount of trips from 6 to 10 on average. Too bad though, I enjoyed operating out to Howard Beach.
KYW News Radio (traffic and transit on the two's) reports that a freight train derailment at Elizabeth has 2 of 4 corridor tracks blocked, causing delays of 20 minutes to Amtrak and Transit trains. Delays are reportedly expected to last until late morning.
Well at least the trains can skip around the blockage from ELMORA to LANE or COUNTY to ELMORA. Godforbid if something happend between Trenton and MIDWAY.
Why is the area from Trenton to Midway different?
No crossovers between all the tracks.
-Hank
Its about 15 miles without a crossover. What were they thinking when they ripped them out?
(what were they thinking about?)
$$$$$$$
[Its about 15 miles without a crossover. What were they thinking when they ripped them out?]
150 mph service.
3 cars fully derailed, one partial. Buses for Elizabeth and Elizabeth North pax, delays for all other on the Corridor line.
For TV news pix the train was pulled out except for one box car and then the derailed cars but still tying up two tracks at 7am
From NJT's web site: as of 442 pm Eastbound (to NY) service has resumed but Westbound is still out. They have bus ervice from Newark to North Elizabeth and Elizabeth.
The story on Wednesday's freight train derailment in Elizabeth that delayed NJT and Amtrak service is in Thursday's Star-Ledger.
Yesterday I rode Amtrak Train 180 to NY and saw the freight derailment first-hand. Before I saw the derailment, I sensed that the train was running slowly. My train was 10 minutes arriving NY Penn Station.
When I rode Train 163 back to Maryland, the derailed cars were still there, but the two ex-Conrail locomotives and several cars were out of the scene.
Chaohwa
Bread Factory staying--rail link is key,
IT'S A WONDER
Peace,
ANDEE
From the story it looks like the rail link plus $1.3 million in corporate welfare is keeping the bread factory at its current location.
Tom
plus $1.3 million in corporate welfare is keeping the bread factory
If a corporation can save money by going elsewhere it will. It is a small price to pay to keep 1300+ good paying jobs in the area.
Remember, the plant is very old, probably rather ineffecient, and obviously needs upgrades (just like subway cars and stations do). If politicos make things hard for a corp, well it is easier to make bread in the South and truck it to NYC rather than make it in NYC and truck it to the South or wherever.
Out here in North Dakota, we have been pretty good at bagging computer type jobs that could have been done any place else in the world. But no it is our people who are doing the work.
A city needs to compete for jobs just like any other worker.
Elias
If you paid attention, you would see where the money is coming from. $300,000 grant from the district assemblyman, $600,000 grant and a $400,000 loan (interest free) from the Empire State Development Corporation. The total cost of the improvements is $5.9M, including the rail link. In the process, it keeps over 1300 people employed in one of New York City's last remaining manufacturing jobs, and the only commercial bakery. And if you read the article, it states quite clearlyt that they were going to consolidate the plant, but decided to expand its capacity instead. They came to realize the advantages of remaining in the city (with 7.5M potential customers) and an urban enterprise zone, which they had not taken advantage of in the past. The purpose of the UEZ is to get businesses to develop and remain in communities that are otherwise undesireable. This qualifies any business located in the area for special tax breaks and state loans and grants, and increases the economic health of the community, as well as keeps, in this case, 1300+ people off the welfare and unemployment lines. This is not corporate welfare, this is community improvement. How much would 1300+ people on welfare and unemployment for a year cost the state?
-Hank
I loathe corporate blackmail as much as anyone else, but this sounds like one of the few legitimate cases I've ever seen. Most corporate relocation threats are merely empty posturing. No one really believes that the NYSE is going to move to Jersey City, or that a few years ago Conde Nast was going to pull up its tents and head off to Indianapolis. NYC's major employers generally need to be in (or at least near) the city, generally because of specialized labor needs, required proximity to suppliers and customers, top management's lifestyle preferences, and so on. But Interstate Brands seems like an exception. It could very easily have run its baking operations in most areas, and probably did not feel the city's "pull" in the sense that a financial-services or publishing business would. About the only major limitation on its ability to move elsewhere is the availability of labor; NYC is (unfortunately) one of the very few places where there are few if any labor shortages.
So $1.3m of tax dollars saves 1500 low-tech jobs. Not a bad deal, it comes to $867 per job saved. The $5.9m is what Wonder Bread is going to spend on plant improvements according to the article. So Wonder Bread is spending $3933 per employee to keep the aging plant open. That doesn't sound like 'corporate welfare' to me. Utilizing the rail link also makes sense because it takes trucks off of our decrepit NYC highways. But the larger question is why can't the outer boroughs attract high-tech jobs, the jobs of the future. The Wonder Bread deal is great but baking bread is not exactly a 21st century career. Sooner or later it to will be automated, if it hasn't been already.
"But the larger question is why can't the outer boroughs attract
high-tech jobs, the jobs of the future."
It's a cost of labor and taxes issue.
Cost of labor is a much bigger issue in high-tech than it is in baking bread. A combination of low margins and short shelf-life mean that bread has to be baked locally. You can't spend either a lot of time or money in getting the bread where it needs to be. If you're baking for NYC, you just factor the higher labor costs into your price.
High-tech, despite Moore's Law, has a much longer shelf-life than bread. It also has very low shipping costs. So if you pay attention to labor costs, you can make more profit and sell more products at a lower price.
I can't speak for this particular project without knowing many more details, but I always cringe when I hear politicians talk about how they are "saving 1500 jobs". If the company had to move, it would move locally (within the region). Many of the 1500 would probably continue working for the new company at its new location. Others would find new employment at other companies. If one were to tally only the "jobs lost" over the past 20 years, you would expect NYC to just be one very long unemployment line.
Whether this is a case of corporate welfare, personal welfare, political pork or good government isn't really knowable from a short article in the Daily News.
"But the larger question is why can't the outer boroughs attract
high-tech jobs, the jobs of the future."
It's a cost of labor and taxes issue.
True, although the effect of varying state and local tax burdens on business-location decisions is usually overstated. I'd like to add one more thing - call it a "fear factor."
As has been noted here before, rent control limits new apartment construction in NYC even though new construction is exempt. Developers fear that the exemption may not last forever. In other words, a development built today might be able to charge whatever the market will bear, but there's always the chance that next year or five years from now a new administration will change the rules and make the development subject to rent control. While this may not be a big risk, a prudent developer - or lender - might very well be scared off when there are millions of dollars at stake.
Something related may be happening with businesses. NYC is reasonably welcoming toward business right now, at least in comparison with the recent past though not with the Sunbelt. Unfortunately, no one can be sure that this state of affairs will last. Should Mark Green or Al Sharpton become mayor, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that NYC will become hostile toward business. This hostility could take the form of crushingly high taxes (high enough to really count), increasingly stringent zoning or land-use restrictions, or, which I consider the most likely possibility, city-resident hiring quotas. If you have a business in the city, and get hit with these taxes or restrictions, your bottom line is likely to suffer. Even if you rent rather than own, you'd be faced with high relocation costs. So it's no surprise that businesses are choosing to locate elsewhere, in places where the business climate is not likely to turn hostile.
Excellent point. The pro-business Giuliani era is coming to a close. Who knows how the next administration will handle the issue of NYC economic development. There hasn't been much new office building construction either in the last few years, perhaps because of the glut created in the 1980s building boom.
re fears of an anti-business administration
Excellent point. The pro-business Giuliani era is coming to a close. Who knows how the next administration will handle the issue of NYC economic development.
Alan Hevasi probably is the most business-friendly of all the people who have a decent shot at being the next mayor. Not everyone will agree with all of his positions, but he does appear to be the rare sort of politician who makes decisions guided by logic rather than emotion. He's not the sort who'd rush into knee-jerk decisions that would impair the city's business climate. Peter Vallone, Fernando Ferrer and even Geraldo also probably know what side their bread's buttered on, so to speak, and hopefully wouldn't do anything too bad for business.
Mark Green's another story entirely. He epitomizes the most sickening sort of Upper West Side, head-in-the-clouds mentality that instinctively distrusts most private enterprise. His commitment to "social justice" might be seen as admirable, but he's either too stupid or too stubborn to realize that, cliche or not, a rising tide lift all (or almost all) boats.
Al Sharpton? Suffice to say that he's several dimensions beneath contempt.
There hasn't been much new office building construction either in the last few years, perhaps because of the glut created in the 1980s building boom.
More specifically, the lenders haven't yet gotten over their cases of cold feet, and will kibosh any deal unless there's been a substantial degree of preleasing.
A combination of low margins and short shelf-life mean that bread has to be baked locally. You can't spend either a lot of time or money in getting the bread where it needs to be.
That's not necessarily the case. When my son-in-law was driving for Valley Foods he would occasionally be asked to make the run to Salt Lake City for a triple of bread (48' trailer plus two 28' pups) to be delivered to either Las Vegas or Los Angeles. He hated that run despite the extra money it paid.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Andee, thanks for that GREAT news story!
It certainly looks like New York & Atlantic Railway will be picking up another client.
Doug aka BMTman
I knew you'd eat it up. 8^)
Peace,
ANDEE
If anyone is interested, I saw the R-142A at Brooklyn Bridge at 7:00 this morning.
Have a nice day !!
Glad to hear it. Hopefully the next time I go home, I'll be able to ride the R142A again. But what caused it to go out of service last time around?
Some door nonsense, I believe they had to rewire the door circuits. Pelham Bay Dave could probably elaborate best.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does the A train stop at World Trade Center, as well as the E? It doesn't specify that the A train stops there on the subway signs. Please help! Also, is there an easier way to get to Wall Street from Port Authority?
Chambers Street and World Trade Center on the A/C/E Lines can be considered. They are just on different platforms. Transfers can be made between the platforms. Only the E Train stops at World Trade Center while the A/C stop only at Chambers Street.
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it stops a Chambers St. which connects to WTC
From Port Authority to Wall Street requires walking. You can walk from 8th Ave to 7th Ave to get the 2 or 3 train, which stops at Wall Street, or you can take the A train to Broadway-Nassau and walk to Wall Street. (You could transfer to the 2 or 3 or the 4 or 5 at Broadway-Nassau, but it's hardly worth the effort.)
The 2 or 3 stops at Wall St from 7th? That would be better than the A or E going to W.T.C., right?
The Transit Authority Travel Infomation number is 718-330-1234.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which part of Wall Street is wanted? Wall and William (2,3), Wall and Nassau (J), Wall and Broadway (4,5), Rector and Church (N,R), or Rector and Greenwich(1)??? Or do you just mean the Wall Street Area, which is not that small, there being the many stops at South Ferry, Wall (Rector), Fulton, and Chambers...
Broadway Nassau would be better on the A/C. Less walking, remember Wall St ends at Broadway at the Old Church. Chambers WTC is too far of a walk
Depends on where you want to do do your walking, Times Sq. or the Financial District. The distances involved are not large in either case.
Someone please help me!
If you would poise a question someone may be able to help.
Peace,
ANDEE
The A,C, and E all stop NEAR the World Trade Center. None of the three trains goes south of Fulton Street in Manhattan. To get to the southern end of the Financial District, you have to change at Bway-Nassau from the A or C. If you just want to stroll, just take the A/C/E to Chambers/WTC. If you want the epicenter of the Fin. District, the 4 and 5 go to Wall St. and Broadway in front of Trinity Church. The NYSE and ASE are practically right there (just an alleyway away).
Your original question about the E vs. A and C is that the E stops at its own dead-end platform (called WTC), its northern edge just inches south of the A/C Chambers St. platform.
Has anyone ever seen any R32 serving the A line in revenue service in recent history (within the past 5 years)?
I've seen occasional R38's on the A, but almost never an R32 there (which is normally used on C and [to a lesser extent] E).
If the R32's ever served on the A, what years did the R32's run there?
Nick
R32 cars are running on the A line. Sometimes, they run in mixed consists with R38 cars.
What's an R32? What does that mean? Also, if A gets off at Chambers St, how far is that from Wall St? On Mapquest, it's like a mile hike.
Newtonyc, travel questions should be posted in another message or thread (message topic).
Most NYC Subway cars are named by their contract number (current test cars are R142), this site has extensive information this, please explore.
If you need answer to your travel questions right away you can call the Transit Authroity 24/7 at 718-330-1234.
What's an R32? What does that mean?
R-32 is the designation for a car style. The R-32's were introduced in the mid-1960's yet are still going strong - unless plans change radically, they're almost certain to spend more than 50 years in service. You can identify them by their corrugated sides, with the corrugations running all the way up to the roof. The cars with corrugations running only to the window level are the R-38's, a slightly younger style which unfortunately, due to the use of some non-stainless steel construction with resulting rust problems, aren't likely to be around as long.
R32
R38
Click on the contract number above each picture to see more pictures of these cars.
Wall Street is indeed quite a hike from the Chambers Street Station. Your best bet is to take the "A" train to Bway-Nassau and transfer to the "2", "3", "4" or "5" and take one of them to Wall St.
Yes, R-32s are being sporadically run on the A line but mostly in mixed consists with R-38s. However, there is one train running right now with a full 10 car R-32 consist on the A. There is no set schedule for this train so if you're looking to ride it, you will just have to wait for it and hope it doesn't take too long to show up. Also, it's only used when there aren't enough R-38s in good order for revenue service at 207th St.Yard.
I rode on an A train of R-32s once in 1968 or 1969. It was unsual to say the least. Too bad I had to get off at 42nd St. I would have loved to have stayed on board for a CPW express joyride.
More recently, any R-32s I've encountered on the A are almost always intermixed with R-38s. That's not too bad, since they look similar except for the fluting, but I still prefer solid trains.
Yes, the mixing of R40M and R42 cars on J/M/L and Z trains annoys me as well.
Well, that's not too bad, either, since they are also reasonably similar. What really drove me crazy was seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on D trains in 1969-70. Not to mention other smorgasbord trains of that period. I think the yard crews stopped sorting out the various cars after doing yard moves and just left them coupled together as they were.
I believe there is a picture of a N train that was made up of slant R40's, R27's and R38's. Now that's ridiculous.
The real topper was a 10-car train with five different car types coupled together.
Of course, mixed consists were commonplace on the IRT for years.
Today on the J I was on a solid consist of R-40Ms, pleasant surprise.
What would look cool, if the East New York yard ever wanted to try it, would be coupling two R-40 slants to two R-40Ms, getting two other sets to R-40Ms and running an eight-car train, with the slants at the front and back. Since the side stripe is just about the same on both, it would look like it natrually belonged that way, like the old Expo `67 rail cars.
If the switchmen ever found out that you were trying to make more work for them(it's already the busiest yard in the system), they'd come after you!
Besides, it'll never happen. Slant 40s must run with other slant 40s in revenue service with no exceptions by order of the General Supt.
I know, but it would be a great-looking train, especially if you were taking a full eight-car photo of the train while standing back from one of the el lines.
Maybe they can think about it for the "Farewell to the R-40" trip a few years down the line.
For a farewell trip it should not be a problem.
They probably didn't have that rule 30 years ago during the days of smorgasbord trains.
They DEFINITELY didn't have the rule back then.
I always wanted consists like this:
/--][--}{--][--\/--][--}{--][--\
Re-link all slants to R-40Ms. Since there are more slants than Ms, pairs of /--][--\ could be used for 10 car trains, and placed in the middle. I know, more work, but it would look cool and give the R-40 trains a cooler look. Perhaps the trains could be permanantly linked into 4 car sets (which I suspect the 143 will be like, 4 car sets with pairs left over to make 10 car trains).
Believe it or not, most R32s that appear on the "A" are in solid consists.
During the Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction project last year, there were quite a few R32s running on the "A". Most of these R32s were borrowed from the Jamaica Yard for the increase service needed on the "A" since the "J", "M", and "Z" could not get to Manhattan.
Once the project was finished, R32s appeared sporadically on the "A".
Today I saw a very very rare train on the A Line. It was an R38 to Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue. The best part was that the T/O kept his cab door closed the whole time.
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When I operate an R-38,32, etc., I'll be more than happy to keep the cab door closed for any of you. Only thing that I ask is that you bathe before leaving the house.
Say, zman179 -- you must have encountered one too many foamers in your travels, eh?
I could provide you with security for a nominal fee. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
For your information: the R-38 is NOT a rare site on the A.
Actually it depends on the time of day. During the rush hours you are likely to find a few trains of R-38s mixed in with the R-44/46 consists. That is quite normal and not something out of the ordinary.
Of course the C local is populated with R-32 and 38 trains exclusively.
Doug aka BMTman
There are R38 trains on the "A" at just about any time, and there are no R46's.
wayne
Sorry Wayne. The 44s and 46s look so much alike to me from the outside that I tend to lump them together.
Doug aka BMTman
Do you have PROFF? 8-)
I just couldn't resist, the atmosphere here lately has made me light headed
Peace,
ANDEE
I dunno, Andee; I've been over at the eBay trough lately so I am out of the loop. I check back here at night and I am scrupulously avoiding the little war going on. Anyway things like that don't bather me.
The last time I saw an R46 on the "A" was - well, it wasn't the "A", it was the Train To The Plane. I think one or two runaway Trains To The Plane may have deadheaded or masqueraded as "A" trains.
The R46 is definitely NOT a regular on the Fulton IND EXCEPT at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where "G" trains go.
wayne
There was a very brief period in the early '80s where the Jamaica yard got all the R-10s, 38s, and 44s assigned to the A and CC lines, and the A and CC lines got the 46s from Jamaica. At that time, the R-10s were notoriously slow, falling apart, and dirty. The 38s were quick but noisy, and the 44s, while similar to the 46s in appearance, were slower, dirtier, and more unkempt, but still a cause for celebration when a set arrived, when compared to what else was available.
I recall it was due to there being some sort of change in power where the person who assigned equipment had it in for the Jamaica yard at that time. Can anybody confirm this?
The R-46s experienced widespread truck cracking problems in 1980 or thereabouts, and many were relegated to rush hour service on the CC in an effort to restrict their usage. The R-10s and other equipment were assigned to Jamaica Yard to compensate for this.
Not all of the R-10s experienced serious problems. Some of them could still motor, as Wayne can attest.
Oh yes, indeed! That "F" train (circa 1981), with R-10 #3080 the lead motor, went FLYING through Queens, probably reaching speeds in excess of 50MPH, in the express stretches. The Sutphin straightaway may have seen this train travelling at 55MPH.
And, yes, this feat was equalled by R-6-2 #1233, with Bull Gears pitched at "A" above high "C".
wayne
Which translates to good old A-440.:-)
And on this date in 1973, well......
I do know that you can thank Donald Manes for having all the R46's assigned to the Queens IND in the early 80's. Sorta his legacy, IMHO.
No, I didn't know this. Can you please shed some light on this? I would really like to know how this came to be. Thank you.
Manes used his considerable political clout to have all the R46's taken from the various lines they inhabited and concentrated on the Queens IND. The ones running on the CC, D and B lines were x-fered to Jamaica, causing a stir by riders of the lines affected. Remember, at this time it was policy to spread the newest cars around the system to make everyone happy (as was done with the R42's when new). Concentrating all new cars on one line had not been done in years.
Wait a minute! They did that in 1964 when they delivered almost all of the R36 cars to the #7 line (except for the R36ML cars).
wayne
Having the World's Fair going on at the time made the decision on the R-36s make more sense, and the mainline IRT was getting most of the R-33s at the same time, so the only thing riders on the 1 through 6 trains could complain about was the lack of picture windows, new TA logo and teal blue-and-white paint scheme.
And, of course, one of the best all-time decisions ever made was assigning the immortal R-10s to the A.
...>>>I do know that you can thank Donald Manes for having all the R46's assigned to the Queens IND in the early 80's. Sorta his legacy, IMHO.<<<...
Donald Manes? Isn't he the one who commited suicide with a butchers knife?
Peace,
ANDEE
(Donald Manes? Isn't he the one who commited suicide with a butchers knife? )
Yep, that's him. My wife's college roomate grew up in Queens, and went to work in borough hall right after college. She thought New York politicians were honest. A few months later, the Feds close in and Donald tries to kill himself, fails, and then succeeds. Welcome, unhappily, to the real world.
Donald tries to kill himself, fails, and then succeeds
If at first you don't succeed ...
What about the R16s on the Jamaica line in 1955?
With very few exceptions, the R-46s ALWAYS ran on the Queens Boulevard lines from their birth in January 1976(?). The 'N' got them when it was extended to Forest Hills weekdays to replace the 'EE' that September. The first time I saw one on the 'GG' was around February 1977 to replace the R-16s that went to ENY and the R-38s that went to the 'B'.
Since every QB line also runs in Manhattan and Brooklyn as well, no one can say that only Queens gets the new cars.
The R44s were shared by the 'A', 'D', 'E' and 'F' from their 1972 birth through about mid-1977. After that, they were rarely seen on Queens Boulevard, but continued to run on the 'D' through about 1981. Of course, they remain on the 'A' and Rockaway Park shuttle.
As many have stated, the 46s did limited duty on the rush-hour 'CC' when the cracking undercarriages necessitated fleet reassignments. The first time I rode the trains after coming home from college in summer 1980, I saw an R-10 on the 'E' across the platform from a 46 on the 'CC' at Canal Street. I felt compelled to ask a total stranger, "Did I MISS something?"
For a very brief time in fall 1988, the 'N', which was running to Astoria by then, had 46s. There was some kind of swap with the 'F', which had a few 68s. This caused endless confusion among daily riders.
I always feel Manes' legacy is the fact that it took Queens fifteen years longer than Manhattan to get cable.
This conflicts with what I've been told. I know the R46 ran on other lines than the Queens IND pre 1980. Manes DID have some effect on their complete transfer to Jamaica. I cant remember where, but it's documented. Unfortunatley, my greatests source of this type of information (my grandfather) passed away 14 years ago.
Of course - if you overlook the technicality that JFK is in Queens, the R-46 1200 series cars spent their entire youth off the Queens Blvd. lines.
Look. I know they're pretty good trains all in all. But they're practically all I ever see on Queens Blvd. (the R32s are what, Maybe 20% of the line) I'm hoping with the changes we're expecting next year there will be some variety. Maybe something with a rollsign.
Hmmm. Maybe some R40Ms, R42s, and some R68s for the locals.
:)Andrew
The R38s did not operate on the "A" nor the "CC" lines in 1980. They didn't arrive on the "A" until 1982 and the "CC" in 1983. Also, during this situation with the R46 during 1980, they operated on the "A" and "D" first. Later on that year most of the R46s were transfered to the "CC".
During this time, the bulk of the R38s were operating on the "AA" and the "B".
For the record: R-46s remained assigned to Jamaica Yard. The R-10s were assigned to Pitkin yard although a fair number of them were used in Queens Blvd service. They were maintained at pitkin shop. Most of the R-44s were stored out at Rockaway park on scrap trucks while the r-46s used the R-44 trucks to remain in service. By 1984-85 the R-46 fleet was riding on newly purchased Buckeye trucks and the r-44's had their wheels back.
Train Dude,
Just wondering, why did they use the R-44 trucks to keep the R-46s in service, when that caused the R-44s to be unusable? It seems that this would not cause any net increase in trains available for service; it seems to me that what you're doing is pretty much robbing Peter to pay Paul. Why not just keep the R-44s in place of the R-46?
As an aside, were R46s using R-44 trucks able to MU with other R-46s? With R-44s? Just wondering.
Thanks,
subfan
At the time that decision was made, the R-46 was a much newer car and perceived to be far more advanced. R-44s were already viewed as lemons. In addition, since R-44 and R-46 could not MU, if you took R-46s off the road for cracked trucks, they could not be replaced (one for one) by R-44s. However, by using the R-44 trucks, the larger fleet could be kept afloat.
As for the MU question, the MUing is done via low voltage. Traction motors are high (300VDC) voltage. Therefore the control circuits have no way of knowing nor do they care what traction motors they are turning. One note: the R-46 used GE control packages while the R-44 used Westighouse (except for the last 12 R-44s). The R-44 used westinghouse traction motors too. It was quite fortunate that the traction motor characteristics were so close that switching from GE to Westinghouse traction Motors was un-noticed in the car's performance.
I was always curious why they had so much trouble with those R46 Rockwell trucks [I believe] when Rockwell made most of the trucks for the almsot indestructible SD40 locomotives and they had no problems. Or is it just another matter of many instances of NYCT/LIRR...and sadly Amtrak getting so many lemons?
Recently (mid 1990s) NYCT experimened with fiberglass show beams. Without going into detail, the beams wold split and fall off under certain conditions. While not quite analogous, the situation with the rockwell trucks was very similar. they looked geat on paper. Sadly, in real life, due to the harsh conditions of the NYCT ROW, the rockwell trucks were overmatched.
Could it be that the IND's ties-in-concrete roadbed took its toll on the Rockwell trucks?
I don't know for sure. I do know thatit was not the case with the fiberglass shoe beams. They were done in due to truck flexing on the soft Brighton Line roadbed. Go figure
I've heard from other sources long ago that the same problems, cracking appeared on the R1-9 truck in the early days, likewise the R10 truck which became pretty much system standard until the R46 appeared. Same reason, tested on the BMT and then the concrete IND roadbed hammered them.OK guess we haven't proven that was the R46 problem.
The problems with the R10 truck seemed to have been corrected as they served under thousands of cars for many years. OTOH as much as I liked the R1-9 my car shop guru friend told me once that was the worst truck in the history of railroading [I'm sure there were worse]. Told me about 62 or so that the welding shop made all kinds of OT keeping them patched.
I heard the casting method used for the R-10 trucks was in its infancy at the time, and has since been refined to reduce, if not eliminate, casting flaws.
No it's not a rare site... not trains to Lefferts. But an R38 to Far Rockaway? In the past 3 years this is the second time I've ever seen an R38 headed to Far Rockaway. Or maybe I don't ride enough.
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You don't ride enough.
There are plenty of R38 A trans running on the Rockaway line. I usually let them pass in hope of getting to ride the superior R44's.
Agreed, agreed! I cannot stand those rolling garden sheds either 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Rolling garden sheds? Maybe we should ask Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson for his take on this.:-)
I personally also wait for R-38s for the railfan view.
Why? One of the thrills of the system is getting the railfain window over Jamaica Bay.
To be honest, my idea of a railfan window is an R44/46 with foward facing window seats. I'm not into standing.
You definately do not ride it enough. I live in Far Rockaway, the R38s run right by my window 24/7. But I must admit, you do have to have patience. Sometimes there would be 4 to 5 R44s until an R38 appears. Your best time to catch them is during rush hours.
If you want to ride a train of R38s on the "A", now is the time to do it. For the last couple of days, the R38s have been providing half the service and in some cases, the bulk of the service. If you are interested, your best bet is to try today or Monday at the latest because there is no telling when the R44s will return to rule the "A" train.
My experience is that both "branches" of the A have an equal distribution of R44 and R38/32 cars running on them.
No, for the most part, especially during non rush hours, it tends to be difficult to catch an R38 on the "A. Sometimes you have to let 4 or 5 trains of R44s go before 1 train of R38s appear.
Now, considering that the Far Rockaway "A" for the most part runs every 16 - 20 minutes, that means you would possible have to wait 1 hour to an 1 hour and 40 minutes for an R38 to Far Rockaway (or Lefferts Blvd) sometimes.
Hmmmm, on friday I saw 3 pass thru the WTC consecutively. Two to Far Rock, one to Lefferts ...
Sir, remember, my original stated that as of RECENTLY (the last couple of days), the R38s have been providing half and sometimes the bulk of the service on the "A" train.
I was just making an observation which clashed with yours. I always see some R38 A trains to Rockaway during the PM rush.
What about the special rush hour thru trains to Rockaway Park? The only ones I've ever seen are 46s.
I meant to say every rush-hour thru 'A' special to Rockaway Park has been an R-44, NOT 46.
My mind is still on the cracked R-46 undercarriage thread. Please forgive me.
UNFORGIVEN. 40 LASHES WITH A WET NOODLE FOR YOU!!!
Thanks. Where'd the R44s go? Where'd the extra R38s come from?
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The TA just operates like this from time to time. The truth is, I havent figured out the method to their madness. If anybody has any ideas, please respond. Thank you.
this could very well be the thread spanning the largest amount of time but with the least messages ACTUALLY posted...
I think longest completely would have to go to "Brooklyn Subway Routes WITHOUT the Manhattan Bridge" if you include the later threads about the Tacoma Narrows and other things that spun off of it...
Actually, I think shuch threads appear on BusTalk. The so-called "active board," as of the time of this post, contains 5000 messages. The oldest dates back to 17 April 2000. The longest lasting fewest posted thread is called "HOT OFF THE PRESS !! BUS FESTIVAL 2000 NEWS"
It dates back to May 4, and has 2 messages. Incedentally, I posted one of them!
Aaah but that is Bustalk. Interesting...I take this to mean that Subtalk has much higher ridership than bustalk....
I don't think there's anything unusual about that. I've been on Far Rockaway A trains of R-38s before, although I had to let a few trains of R-44s go by first.
Unfortunately the waiting time for an A Train to Far Rockaway is two times as long because there are 2 spurs. I'll so some waiting next time. It'll be while.
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You do have to be patient if you decide to wait for a train of R-38s. I've had to let as many as four trains of R-44s go by. If I'm pressed for time, I have to bite the bullet and take whatever A train comes first. Once I was on my way to the Transit Museum and got there too early. Having some time to kill, I took an A (R-44s) out to Lefferts Blvd and back to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. That train was surprisingly nimble, getting up to 40 mph along Fulton St. at one point.
Yep, those are the R44's....the R38's can do better than that; I've seen them get to 47 along Fulton IND. A nice ride, especially with a railfan window. Another frisky beast was an R32 of the "A", led by ODD COUPLE car #3767 and her mate #3650; she had it up at a steady 45 for the ENY-Euclid GT's, which the T/O played like a fiddle.
wayne
Well....1998 thru present, for openers:
The following have been on the A during the past year and this is a constantly changing situation, as they swap back and forth in Pitkin-Yard with the C:
3404-05
3416-17
3484-85
3594-95 (R32GE)
3504-05
3606-07
3650-3767 (odd couple)
3704-05
3716-17
3880-81 (R32GE)
3892-93 (R32GE)
3894-95
3912-13
3936-37 (R32GE)
In fact, any R32 that lives in Pitkin-Yard could theoretically appear on the A as needs dictate. I have seen more cars than in the above list on the A; this list shows only the latest of my R32 census, and these were last seen on the A; quite a few not shown above have been since been seen on the C.
wayne
Was there any other time other than the 1968-1973 (and possibly 1979-80) period where the R32's ran on the Eastern Division lines (J/QJ, "original" K, L or M)?
I've seen photos on the R32 page from that period in time, which showed at least a small number of R32's running on the M and QJ.
Oh, how'd I wish to see these R32's back on my "native" M line (don't mind if they appeared on Chris R16's (Sorry Chris, not really a big fan of those "cursed" R16's) J/Z line or even the L line).
Nick
The R32GE's spent their summer in Fresh Pond Yard, I believe, as a work train because of their lack of A/C. BTW, does anyone know if they're back on the road yet?
Some R-32s laid up in ENY yard during middays prior to Chrystie St. when they ran on the TT. They continued up the Centre St. line and over the Williamsburg Bridge instead of reversing at Chambers St. or deadheading over the Manhattan Bridge.
The Nassau Street RR special did the exact same thing. Some even went to Metropolitian Ave.
The Nassau St. RR was a truncated RJ, when all was said and done.
I wouldn't be surprised if R-32s on the old TT laid up at Fresh Pond Yard as well as ENY. I saw one such train at ENY from the platform at Eastern Parkway-Bwy Junction on the Canarsie line in July of 1967. Then a train of BMT standards pulled in. I think everyone knows how I felt about them back then. Let's just leave it at that.
I saw an R32 on the J line once, in January 1989. It was pre-GOH, and it shocked me. Never seen a post GOH R32 anywhere on the eastern division. They were common sights on the TT line when new, and after Chrystie St, they ran on all the e.d. lines until the mid 70's.
An R32 in Eastern Division is a rare bird indeed. In fact, I have not seen even one there in revenue service in at least fourteen years.
The R32GE's sometimes hole up in Fresh-Pond or Canarsie Yards on their summer vacations (they have no A/C).
Back in the early 1970s, I saw a number of R32 on the "QJ". Later, I saw some and rode them on the "M". I have never, ever seen one on the Canarsie Line (the "LL"/"L") and never saw one on the "KK" when it ran. (I DID see a BMT Standard there before they retired, late in '68).
wayne
What are the car numbers for the GE R-32's?
Check out the R32 page in the illustrated subway car roster.
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I might be in NYC for a day trip from Boston this Saturday, so I do need the schedule for the R142/R142A (especially the R142A) since I will be going from Canal/Bklyn Bridge.
On another note, I did see the R142A southbound on Aug 19 at Canal St for the first time in revenue service, but I was on the uptown platform while the train was in the downtown platform. I ended up taking redbird #8575 instead.
Nick
Here ya' go,
R-142/142A INFORMATION
Peace,
ANDEE
Go to my site at http://members.aol.com/orentree/R142.htm.
When was the last time those cars ran in revenue service and on what lines? I will safely assume they were retired sometime before the R17/R21/R22's were retired.
Nick
R-12s withdrawn from service, 1981.
R-14s and R-15s withdrawn from service, December 1984.
-Stef
The R12's disappeared in 1981, the R14's and 15's in 1984, just before I got a chance to ride 'em. The R21/22's went in October 1987 and the R17 in February 1988, so luckily I got to ride them in their last days, mostly on the #3 line. Some R22's never saw their 30th birthdays. If the R32's had a similar lifespan, they'd have been scrapped 6 years ago.
(If the R32's had a similar lifespan, they'd have been scrapped 6 years ago.)
I think it is safe to assume that the R-32 will make at least 45 years before retirement.
-Mark
Yep. The MTA should've ordered 2,000 of em ...
My feelings exactly.
If I take the A train from P.A., I get off at Nassau St? This will take me to the Wall St area? I really appreciate all the help. I feel like an idiot, but I have a fear of getting lost in NY. Understandably.
Yes, the A train station at Broadway-Nassau is in the northern part of the Financial District. Wall St itself is about a 5 minute walk from this station.
Here are some comments to ease your fear. You CANNOT get lost in NYC because every subway connects somewhere to every other subway. Get a $4 all-day "Fun-Pass". The Financial district is a little confusing, but again it is hard to get really lost. Since you are interested in subways, you should realize that (going from west to east) IN THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT, the 1 runs on Greenwich St., the N&R run on Church St., the 4&5 run on Broadway, the J&M run on Nassau St, the 2&3 on William St. Finally, the A/C run (sort of) crosstown on Fulton St.
North of the Financial District, you should think of the subway in terms of 5 (almost) completely separate north-south lines: 8th Ave, 7th Ave, 6th Ave, Bway, and Lexington/Park Ave. If you go down into a subway station or look at the list of the trains posted at the top of the stairs, it is unlikely that you will be lost because you will know which line you are at (and there is a station nearly everywhere). Looking at the map, just focus on one color at a time and you will see the 5 nearly separate north-south lines.
Also nearly everywhere outside of the Financial District, nearly every street has a number. It is hard to say you are lost if you are at 27 St. and 5 Ave. and want to go to 34 St. and 6 Ave.
Remember, the island of Manhattan is only about 1.5 miles wide so it is hard to get very lost, especially when there are 5 N/S lines running up and down that 1.5 miles. It is not like other cities where you can go in the wrong direction for miles and not realize it. In NYC you eventually get to a river. In the Financial district the water is on 3 sides. Good luck.
The only issue here is if you accidentally take an express instead of a local. In most cases, three stops on an express is not the same as three stops on a local. I personally recommend sticking with local trains if you're not familiar with the subway.
OTOH, if you like express trains as I do...
Couldn't help but brag about a picture of the Shoreline Trolley Museum of Third Ave Car 629 (my Favorite trolley there) and Johnstown (PA) 357 on page 28 of the September Issue of Railpace.
Story about New Haven Rails 2000 for the 2000 Convention of the National Railway Historical Society and their various field trips, one to the Branford Electric Railway's Shoreline Trolley Musuem, 131 visted on Friday 14th.
Now I'm more into the Rapit Transit at the Musuem so remember New York Days on October 7th and 8th this year!!
That's right, not to soon to make your plans to catch a ride on some of you favorite old RT cars. Expected to be out that day:
- Brooklyn Union/BRT El gate car #1227; IRT Hi-V #3662; IRT Lo-V #5466; IRT R-17 #6688; IND R-9 #1689
Plus you can get up close & personal to BMT Standard #2775 & SIRT/B&O #388 and H&M Black Car #503 will probally come out of the barn for a static display (lots of progress has been made on her structural problems this past year). It's my hope that she can come out & play next year !
Then the first PCC delivered to an operator (B&QT) #1001 will be out and about along with many other NYC trolleys & MOW equip.
Mr t__:^)
This is article that was in yesterday's Norwalk-Advocate newspaper.
Sorry the picture that was in the paper isn't available on line.
http://www.norwalkadvocate.com/Norwalk/release/09-05-2000/article4.html
[Sorry the picture that was in the paper isn't available on line.]
The Postal Service has a partial photo.
For those who will miss it in Connecticut, it's coming to New Jersey on the 16th and 17th at the Hoboken NJT station, a quick PATH ride from NYC.
And I may add that it's a lot cheaper than going to Danbury or Whippany if you don't have a car.
I waited at 96th street for the R142 on the 2 to go southbound. The 11oo Train which was supposed to be the R142 was a R33 instead. I asked the T/O, he said yeah I wondered what happened. He says none where running today. I even went up the 2 line searching for it and all Motorman say its not running!
WHAT HAPPENED!!!!!
diagnostic check up maybe. they have to see if the systems are running fine. nothing went wrong with them because the problems on both are fixed anyway. both are in very reliable state. tho only thing that could have also make them out of service is if something is being modified or because of track detour which the train isn't programmed to alert passengers about.
diagnostic check up maybe. they have to see if the systems are running fine. nothing went wrong with them because the problems on both are fixed anyway. both are in very reliable state. tho only thing that could have also make them out of service is if something is being modified or because of track detour which the train isn't programmed to alert passengers about. wait a couple of days until they are put back on track
NYCT doesn't do "diagnostics" on the test trains during hours that they're supposed to be in service. The R-142 experienced a propulsion problem yesterday, and I guess it wasn't corrected by the time "F Train" went looking for the train.
David
I assume this resets the 30-day clock, then?
I'm not the timekeeper :-), but I would imagine that this incident resets the 30-day clock.
David
Not sure. I did spot 6301-05 running before the afternoon rush hour towards East 180th St and were not making simulated stops.
-Stef
How are they making out with the #6311 and #6321 trainsets?
I rode the #6301 trainset on Saturday - VERY good indeed. The R16 numbers made me wax nostalgic for the 70's. I made a special point of riding in #6304.
wayne
6311-20 were still being tested as of this post. I have not seen 6321-30, nor have I seen any new Kawasaki Cars on the road. However, looming in the barn at 180th St was a 142 with it's blind end showing. What's the deal with that? Maybe I'm seeing things.
-Stef
What about the famous car #6321 of New York Times article fame?
If I'm gonna ride in any of those new-fangled trains, it'll be in that car number. In memory of the era of deferred maintainence and how that plan buried a few car types before their time. Car types that in my opinion are more like real NY subway trains than those glorified monorail things.
Have you seen that article? That car was a rolling wreck by the time it was put out of its misery.
If I may, what significance does 6304 hold? Did it experience some sort of spectacular failure when you were on it? Or did it have a case of 1277 syndrome?:-)
In the Roosevelt Ave. wreck (1970?), 6304 was the car that was struck by the R40M with the brake pipe rupture. 6304 was part of the R16 GG train that was crossing from D3 to D1 track leaving Roosevelt Ave. The first 2 cars of the R40M (4301/4300 which were eventually renumbered to 4501/4500) had their angle cocks closed as well as having their brakes cut out. The collsion occured due to improper procedeures governing other than head car operation of the R40M. 6 6304 was pushed into a support column and ripped apart. If I recall correctly, one passenger was killed.
Thanks, I stand corrected. I knew about that tragic accident, but couldn't recall what the car numbers were.
Actually, 2 people were killed in the incident, if I remember correctly. Sadly, a Road Car Inspector, on his way to work, stopped to help. He assisted the crew by flagging from the 2nd car. Unfortunately since he was not qualified to flag, when the trains collided, he was held responsible and actually charged with manslaughter. When the charges were ultimately dismissed, he got his job back BUT was never allowed to work as an RCI on the road, he endedhis career, working for me in Jamaica Yard.
I had become acquainted with one of the victims two years before the accident. My sympathy is for his family, rather than any TA personnel in this matter.
The TA investigation was limited to the actions at Roosevelt Ave. It appears to have felt that questions as to why a train with 2 defective cars was permitted to leave Jamaica Yard were beyond the investigation's scope. I agree that the on site scapegoat did not warrant conviction for manslaughter. I would have looked in the maintenance yard.
One interesting sidelight. The interest that Mr. Berger and I shared was elective politics. Some of the individuals in that circle have achieved elective and appointed office. They are some of the TA's sharpest critics.
Since i was not an employee of the NYCt at the time of the incident, I can't coment on the maintenance practices at jamaica Yard at the time. However, what evidence was there that the cars left the yord as bad order. A brake pipe rupture can occur at any time, without warning. Is ther more to it that I am not aware of?
I don't have any first hand knowledge. One big problem was that the MTA did not cooperate with any independent investigation, including a commission appointed by Mayor Lindsay. The Lindsay Commission was unable to publish the rumors it heard about the then current maintenance practices. Brake failures were not uncommon in 1970.
This commission could and did concentrate on some engineering practices that could be documented and remain troubling three decades later. The commission noted that the R40 married pairs had a single braking system that required operation from the 3rd car, in the event a brake failure in either front two cars. It also noted that the IND signal and switching system had been designed for single unit operation. The commission noted the tripper would have stopped the train had the brakes on the 2nd car been operational. These brakes would have been operational had the rupture occurred on the first car of train composed of R16's instead of R40's. The IND signal system was designed for such failsafe emergency operation of single units. It was never retrofitted - including the moving of switches - for such failsafe emergency operation with married pair cars.
This commission went on to urge that the specifications for the current order of new cars (R44's) that featured a single braking system for 4 cars be changed. The commission noted that there was still time to change these specifications. MTA Chairman Ronan called this commissions report "politically motivated".
Interesting post. I was totally unaware of this commission. Then again, I was a junior in high school at the time waiting for a GG train at Nassau Ave. to get off at Clinton-Washington, and I can tell you, half the students were LATE for school that day! But if the IND signal system was designed for single car units, they haven't changed it 30 years later! We still have the same signals on the original portion to 179 St.! And now we have the equivalent of 5 car units (compared to an R1/9) running around. In the event of a brake pipe rupture today on an R46, we have to sectionalise 4x4. In the case of this collison, let's reverse the trains. Rule: a married pair must be treated as if it is a single car. Lets say the first car of the R16 had the brake pipe rupture and it collided with an R40M leaving Roosevelt crossing from the express to the local. Now the train would be flagged from 60' away instead of 120'. But with the brakes and brake pipe air cut out in the first car only, the train still would have passed that homeball without the air dumping since that car couldn't hold air in the first place! So the collision still may have taken place. since, sure the second car would have tripped, but by the time the train stopped, the collision still may have taken place. The bottom line is this. Sometimes we must move a train in which the first car or cars have no air. We have to get that train out of there. It is THE most dangerous move there is to make. This is why we now have "new" procedeures of positive voice communication whenever the person actually moving the train is not operating from the head car.
The R40 was travelling at 5 mph or less. With an emergency braking at 3.5 mph/sec it would have stopped in 1.4 seconds. The train would have travelled only 5 feet further upon the application of the emergency brakes. The impact point was approximately 75 feet from the tripper. There would have been no collision had the brakes in the second car been functional.
This arithmetic was not a happy circumstance. It was an engineering criteria of the IND designers. The TA violated this criteria, when they went to married pairs.
This is why we now have "new" procedeures of positive voice communication whenever the person actually moving the train is not operating from the head car.
One of the rumors at that time was that the PA system was not working on the R40 train. This necessitated the use another form of communication between the front and third cars.
Several things should be made clear regarding the procedures for isolating and moving a train via 'other than head car operation'.
First: it would have been irelevant as to whether the brake pipe rupture was in the first of 2nd car. Policy & procedure required the isolation by pairs, not single cars.
Second: It would have been irelevant as to whether the PA was operable in the first two cars. When preparing to move a train in this circumstance, the electric portions are locked back, thereby disabling the PA.
Third: Current procedures require positive communication between the qualified flagger and the operator or the train does not move. On that morning, the RCI was not a qua,ified flagger although he was relaying the signals from the conductor to the motorman. it's not clear (to me)whether the C/R gave the wrong signal or the RCI did. However, it was more of procedural error than design error that caused that incident. Since, I have been required to make the same move over a dozen times in my career. All have been by the book and 100% safely done.
First: it would have been irelevant as to whether the brake pipe rupture was in the first of 2nd car. Policy & procedure required the isolation by pairs, not single cars.
Was this P&P in effect prior to the introduction married pairs in the late 1950's or was it necessitated by their introduction?
Third:... . However, it was more of procedural error than design error that caused that incident. Since, I have been required to make the same move over a dozen times in my career. All have been by the book and 100% safely done.
All railroad operations can be done by the book with 100% safety. There is no primary need for interlocking systems and signals so long as policy and procedures are followed. The El's operated for almost 50 years without such safety devices (with a comparable safety record).
The point is that such devices were mandated to ensure absolute safety in the event that such procedures were not followed. Clearly, the proliferation of WD and GT signals during the past half decade demonstrates that the TA believes there is rationale for extraordiary precautions against personnel not following procedures.
The point that Lindsay's commission made was that such precautions had been in place at the site of the accident, when the system was built. The commission pointed out that the combination of going to married pairs and not simultaneously retrofitting all switches prevented the system from operating as intended.
I think our difference is analogous to the auto safety debate some 30 to 40 years ago. Drivers cause almost all accidents - (Corvair, Explorer and Firestone excluded). However, we now mandate seat belts, air bags, crumple zones,etc. I'm chatising the auto companies for not including them, while you are pointing the finger at the nut behind the wheel.
Before the married pair, there was no need to isolate by pairs. My first brake pipe rupture was on my first night as an RCI. An R-9 used to pull a garbage train out at Howard beach - in the snow. I isolated just one car and away we went.
Perhaps it's because of my intimate knowledge of the equipment that I have so much trust in it and the ability to move it safely - even in an emergency. However, let's assume that the Lindsay commission recommendations were adopted, what would we need to do? Well for one thing, we'd need to move interlocking plants like the one south of Roosevelt Ave. It's not far away from the 10 car mark to be protected by signal as currently configured. This holds true for a married 60' pair and even more for a 4-car 75' linked unit. It seems fairly clear that this is not feasible so the current 'fixed block' signal system would need to be replaced. This will be done throughout the system but over the next 30 years. Clearly, the only real solution is to create policy that insures and mandates that other than head car operation be done ONLY under supervision. To do that, we must be willing to endure longer delays. The alternative is to upgrade the skills and requirements of the train operators and conductors to the equivalent of a class one RR including federal licensing. At least then we'd be sure that the crews had a better working knowledge ogf the way the equipment operated and what they were doing in an emergency. Right now I'd say there is just one conductor (who happens to post here) who knows the equipment to that extent.
Lindsay's commission recommended going back to single units. They recommended changing the specs for the R44's which was possible at that time. It may also have recommended retrofitting the married pairs that were currently in the fleet.
Such a program would not have taken 60 years to complete (30 years from today plus the 3 decades from 1970). It would have resulted in using all the safety features that were designed into the system. Using these features would have eliminated the inconvenience to the public in waiting to get qualified personnel into position to move stalled equipment.
The accident occurred May 20, 1970 at 7:43AM.
The R40M had already been renumbered (as had the Brake Test cars and most of the rest of the R40Ms) when the accident occurred; I remember seeing the car #4501 in the news photos.
R40M #4501 is still in service, last seen on the "L", with portions of the side sheet metal of Slant R40 #4200 used in the repair of the left front corner, and a new nose and bonnet was fitted after the crash.
R16 #6304 was split open from front end top the third door when it hit the curtain wall. As Train Dude reported, there were two fatalities.
wayne
>>>The R40M had already been renumbered ...
Why were these cars renumbered?
?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, Steve - spectacular failure indeed; read the subsequent posts.
wayne
B"H
funny, I saw it at franklin ave. this morning at about 8:30 am. looked okay to me. :)
According to the track maps, the Lawrence Street station (M/N/R) is directly above the Jay Street station (A/C/F). Wouldn't it be easy and beneficial for thousands of commuters looking for better access to Wall Street to link these two stations with a stairwell?
(According to the track maps, the Lawrence Street station (M/N/R) is directly above the Jay Street station (A/C/F). Wouldn't it be easy and beneficial for thousands of commuters looking for better access to Wall Street to link these two stations with a stairwell? )
Believe it or not, I think this one might actually be funded in the next capital plan (ie. not a study). The primary beneficiaries would be IND riders heading to the toe of Lower Manhattan, though some riders might also take the trip the other way.
It would also provide a free x-fer between IND and BMT/IRT lines in downtown Brooklyn. All these lines run in the eact same area, but it's impossible to get from Classon Ave on the G to 86th St on the R without going out of your way into Manhattan.
Whoop, I forgot about the x-fer at Ninth St/4th Ave. But you get my point. If all these lines basically converge at the same area, a free x-fer should exist.
(Whoop, I forgot about the x-fer at Ninth St/4th Ave. But you get my point. If all these lines basically converge at the same
area, a free x-fer should exist.)
The F/N-R transfer at 4th Avenue and 9th Street is of no value to A/C riders, and little value to F riders off peak. Let's say I want to go to Atlantic Center, or go to Juniors, or catch an LIRR train on a Saturday. I'd have to wind down deserted passageways from the F, then have a long wait for the R.
If I could go to Jay Street and transfer, both the N AND the R would get me back to Atlantic and Flatbush.
With an unlimted MetroCard I've been known to exit at Jay and walk over to Lawrence for N/R to Dekalb for the Brighton Line. I find this faster sometimes then switch A to C for the Franklin Ave Shuttle to the D/Q.
Yep, the underside of the streets of Downtown Brooklyn are cluttered with rail lines that -- unfortunately -- do not connect with each other. That goes back to the days, of course, when the BMT, IRT and IND were all competing companies trying to vie for the same commuters dollars (or cents as the case was back then).
Now, with the advent of MetroCard, and the fat MTA Captial Programs, we might see more connections in the future (can a Livonia Ave "L" & Junius Street #3 connection be next...?)
Only time will tell...
Doug aka BMTman
A Livonia Ave. and Junius St. connection? I hope that you will mail in your life insurance premium before you attempt it. :)
Hey, Danger is my middle name (when I don't use BMTman)! I scoff at the mere mention of East New York! (besides it ain't as bad as it was back in the '80s).
I'm a big boy. I can handle most "rough" neighborhoods.
And besides, I've got my "battle scars" from the 'Wars of Flatbush'. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
09/07/2000
[I've got my "battle scars" from the 'Wars of Flatbush']
WARS OF FLATBUSH !! Probably fought over an egg cream at the corner candy store!
Bill "Newkirk"
No, fought over a seat at Jahn's ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>Now, with the advent of MetroCard, and the fat MTA Captial Programs, we might see more connections in
the future (can a Livonia Ave "L" & Junius Street #3 connection be next...?) <<<
How about a Queensboro Plaza-Queens Plaza connection that would enable transfers at 7-N-E-F-R and the proposed Sunnyside LIRR stop.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Another transfer I'd like to see opened is between the G line's Court Sq and the #7's 45th/Courthouse Sq. stations as to allow G riders an alternate route over the E/F into Manhattan when the G gets cut back.
Yeah it look like the IRT station is right above and in between the two IND Stations.......
BM34x
This transfer is being planned!
Will I get the credit? LOL
While they're at it, they can sell the current El structure from the 59th Street bridge to the one over the train yard to that town in New Mexico (or was it Arizona?) that bought London Bridge and build a new, quieter El in the Plaza using modern technology. (We can dream, can't we?) The neat trick, of course, would be to do it without disrupting service.
I doubt an x-fer here will be built. The extra riders it would feed into the already overburbdened Brooklyn IRT line from the Canarsie line would not be a good idea.
That is probably true. There are people with unlimited Metrocard that "transfer" between those two stations.....
BM34x
Design of a transfer between the Jay Street and Lawrence Street stations is programmed for 2001, at a cost of $600,000. However, construction is not funded under the 2000-2004 capital program.
David
Speaking of Jay and Lawrence Streets raises a couple of additional questions.
First, why doesn't the Lawrence Street Station have any tiles on the outer walls?
Second, how about a free transfer between the A/C/E World Trade Center Station and the N/R Cortlandt Street Station? They are also very close together.
- Lyle Goldman
OK. Why not all the World Trade Center stations be connected?
Cortlandt (1)-Cortlandt(NR)-Hudson Term (E)-Park Pl(23)-Chambers (AC).
Since City Hall is in the vicinity of Chambers St (AC), lets connect those two. Then there's Brooklyn Bridge (456)-Chambers(JMZ). Since that's across the park, let's connect them. Since Trinity Place is about a block away from Broadway, let's connect Cortlandt St (NR) with Fulton Street (2345JMZ)-Broadway-Nassau (AC). And, since Church Street and West Broadway are a block apart, let's connect the Chambers Street stations on the A, C, 1, 2, and 3 lines. The result: 13 separate stations between Chambers and Cortlandt Streets linked together, making transfers theoretically easier, but with more complicated passageway systems. I could just hear the announcements now:
This is Chambers Street, the last stop on this M train. Transfer is available to the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, A, C, E, J, N, and R trains. Connection is available to PATH trains, and New York Waterway ferries to New Jersey and Long Island.
Then there's the Rector Street and South Ferry stations on the 1, N, and R lines. Both stations on both lines have entrances across the street from each other, so connect them, too. Also connect the South Ferry stations with the Bowling Green station, then make a REAL transfer between the J, 4, and 5 trains at Broad/Wall Streets. Since Nassau Street is a block away from William Street, connect these two to the 2 and 3 station. Rector Street's southern entrance on the N and R is at Morris Street. At this point, Greenwich St and Trinity Place split up. One Block over, there's Broadway, and the Bowling Green station is just a block south of there. Let's make another connection! And Wall Street isn't far from Fulton Street. Let's connect stations with these names together, except for the G train station in Brooklyn, let's leave that one alone for now. Wait, the Fulton Street stations are part of the Fulton-Cortlandt-WTC-Chambers complex. This last connection would make all of downtown Manhattan south of Chambers Street one BIG subway station!
A summary of all the stations in this union:
1:
Cortlandt St.
Rector St.
South Ferry
123:
Chambers Street
23:
Park Place
Fulton Street
Wall St.
45:
Bowling Green
Wall St.
Fulton St.
456:
Brooklyn Bridge
AC:
Broadway-Nassau St.
Chambers St.
E:
Hudson Terminal
JMZ:
Chambers St.
JZ:
Fulton Street
Broad Street
NR:
City Hall
Cortlandt St.
Rector St.
Whitehall St.
A total of 21 stations combined into one! Strange and completely unfeasible idea, isn't it? Now that M train announcement above includes the ferries to Staten Island and the Statue of Liberty!
In which case, conductors would probably say, "Transfers are available to all other routes EXCEPT....." If they were to attempt to name every route, station dwell time would probably increase to the point where they wouldn't be able to say, "Step all the way in and watch the closing doors."
(OK. Why not all the World Trade Center stations be connected?)
These connections would require long passageways, which would be expensive to build. Moreover, the MTA has been closing such passageways over the years, because they are good places to get raped or robbed in off peak hours. Whether or not the thinking has changed on this is open to debate. For my part, I have always been reluctant to take the long walk on 14th Street from the 1/2/3/9 to the F. A long passageway is different from changing across the platform or up and down a short staircase.
If the MTA was to spend that much money, I would recommend digging up all of 48th or 49th Street from 3rd Avenue to 8th Avenue, with connections to all subways. This would allow subway riders to walk cross-town at a good clip, without stopping at traffic lights at each avenue.
I really try to avoid long passageways, especially the one between the A,C,E and Times Square station at 42nd street. It stinks, hot, and rather long.
What are the longest passageways in the system?
Here are some of the long ones I know of:
WTC to A Train
Times Square Complex
14th street- IRT to Sixth Ave
Court Square to 23/Ely
Atlantic/Pacific in Brooklyn
Borough Hall Complex
51/Lex to the IND
WTC to the Chambers St station transfer lenght depends on how you do it. If you're at the north end of the WTC platform, or the south end of Chambers, it's a simple up the stairs, down the stairs. If you're at the opposite end, it's hideously long to the exit.
-Hank
Right. I was referring to coming directly from the WTC and walking outaside of the fare control at the E platform to the A/C, 2/3 fare control. AT night it is full of homeless sleeping and begging.
7 to ACE @ 42 St, 123 to F @ 14 St are both one LONG Manhattan crosstown block long.
(Here are some of the long ones I know of:
WTC to A Train
Times Square Complex
14th street- IRT to Sixth Ave
Court Square to 23/Ely
Atlantic/Pacific in Brooklyn
Borough Hall Complex
51/Lex to the IND )
For purposes of exposure to isolation and crime, most of these don't qualify. In WTC to A train, you are alway in a station with stairways up or down, not in a long passageway with no other access between stations. Hence, it is not as threatening. Same with Atlantic/Pacific -- it is scarier and more isolated above the ground.
14th street- IRT to Sixth Ave qualifies. Court Square to 23/Ely may...I've never been there.
Another one I never liked was the elevator from the 1/9 to the A at 168th.
Then there's the Rector Street and South Ferry stations on the 1, N, and R lines. Both stations on both lines have entrances across the street from each other, so connect them, too.
Depending on how they finally set it up, the re-design of the Whitehall Ferry Terminal, may just give you the transfer between the N/R and 1/9.
Well, I wouldn't go THAT far! I'm not even suggesting connecting the Cortlandt Street Station on the 1/9 lines to the other World Trade Center stations. The two stations that I mentioned, on the other hand, are relatively close to each other. It shouldn't be too hard to connect them. Besides, at others here have already mentioned, there are many connections that would be even longer.
- Lyle Goldman
Would be a very good idea if there was ever a full MB closure. People could take the F train (which seems underused to and from Brooklyn) then catch the B, D, or Q at Lawrence st.
Also planned is a free transfer between the G at Court Square and the 7 at COurt House Square. (yes- the E/F at 23/Ely transfer will remain in place.)
Why is the last stop of the 7 line underground? The rest of the # 7 line is elevated in Queens.
It was to be the first stop of the extension. If you visited the station before the renovations you would know what I mean.
Mr t__:^)
They could still extend it. They would have to lower the tracks at the East end of the station by about 15 feet and tunnel under the new mezzanine. (Yes, I know that would mean lowering the platforms too and making other alterations.
"Where there's a will, . . . ."
Maybe the people of downtown Flushing didn't want an el rumbling over Main Street.
Well they also don't want a Wendy's. I put two signs up there requesting that Wendy's re-open. They were both torn down, while memorial signs stay.
I guess Flushing's Wendy's will remain a useless unused piece of property, as this community obviosly cannot or does not want to move on.
It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train. And with commuters not shopping or even using Flushing anymore, the area will be in a continuous downward spiral.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
As someone who travels to NYC by subway, I think I'm not wasting my time with Flushing, and instead take the E/F to Forest hills or Kew Gardens where there is a Wendy's, not mention other places to shop.
I wish Flushing could be more like Bay Ridge, terminal of the much lesser used R line. There are tons of places to eat and shop there, and it's not nearly as dirty and smelly as Flushing.
About the closed Wendy's: Maybe not everyone can get over violent outrages as quickly as you, even in an empathy-free place like NYC. Eventually the firm that owns or leases the location will do something with it. Also, I doubt that one store closed for a few months will be the one thing to ruin a neighborhood. After a multiple murder at a Starbucks on Wisconsin Avenue in Washington, DC, the store remained closed for a long time and the neighborhood didn't deteriorate. Nobody said, "Well, because a large chain didn't reopen a store after a horrible murder, the people of (upper) Georgetown obviously care nothing about the visitors who come through it."
Finally, shopping areas don't exist solely so that you will have a good selection of fast-food restaurants to choose from when you happen to pass through there once in awhile. They are the way they are for many reasons, so many that I wouldn't want to suggest a limit to them by listing any. Personally I would go to 179 St. because I like Burger King better (assuming it's still there) :-)
Well they also don't want a Wendy's. I put two signs up there requesting that Wendy's re-open. They were both torn down, while memorial signs stay.
I guess Flushing's Wendy's will remain a useless unused piece of property, as this community obviosly cannot or does not want to move on.
It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train. And with commuters not shopping or even using Flushing anymore, the area will be in a continuous downward spiral.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
As someone who travels to NYC by subway, I think I'm not wasting my time with Flushing, and instead take the E/F to Forest hills or Kew Gardens where there is a Wendy's, not mention other places to shop.
I wish Flushing could be more like Bay Ridge, terminal of the much lesser used R line. There are tons of places to eat and shop there, and it's not nearly as dirty and smelly as Flushing.
Also I think Flushing-Main street #7 subway station is one of the smelliest in the system. It always stinks of sewage in there, especially toward the western part of the station.
Well I'm putting one more sign up there, then it's three strikes, and Flushing's down the toilet!
(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)
Well I'm putting one more sign up there, then it's three strikes, and Flushing's down the toilet!
(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)
You can take off Genovese... a new Genovese has opened awhile back on Main St near Northern Blvd., at the site of the former temporary location of Flushing Library, and a failed furniture store.
Some parts are improving. A new Starbucks has also opened. A new building near 39th Ave and Main St has been completed. There are now 2 McDonald's near the subway station.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
...
Also I think Flushing-Main street #7 subway station is one of the smelliest in the system. It always stinks of sewage in there, especially toward the western part of the station.
Isn't that western area where the tower is??? Also I see many people stand in that western "stinky" part of the station during the AM rush, so it couldn't be that bad. I'm sure there are other places (i.e. Bowery? unless it's all cleaned up now) that stinks more. And then there's the rats along the Queens Blvd IND line...
The third strike should be Alexander's.
Yes, the area does stink. I hate to get into stereotypes, but what do most of the people there consider the cornerstone of their diet? Fish. What do they do with the ice that is used to cool the fish after they have finished using it? Shovel it into the subway or into the sewer. And that is what the commuters have to smell.
With all the talk of how advanced Oriental society is when it comes to academic studies, the truth is that it is borne from a far less desirable trait, and that is a culture that is brutally straightforward and short-sighted, looking to solve problems imediately without regard to future consequences.
When was the last time you saw the sanitation department go through flushing with a street cleaner. The mess is mainly from old puddles of water that sit in the gutter for a long time. If you leave a fresh bowl of water in the hot sun it will "go bad" after time.
As for your idea that Oriental society is a lower form of life. You can take over for MR. LA Rail System. He is one of the most hated persons on this site. If you want to be come him welcome to my killfile. If not, behave yourself.
Rob, With all due respect, I never hinted that Orientals are a lower form of life. Saying that a culture is brutally straightforward and short-sighted with respect to another is by no means a statement that it is superior or inferior to another. If that is the way you want to interpret it, fine. I won't killfile your posts because I disagree with you on that point, as you wish to killfile mine. And I don't want to start another craziness like the one in another thread, for unlike "one of the most hated persons on this site," I have verifiable "proff" and proof to support my observations, and it follows below.
My experience with Oriental culture takes many forms. One of those forms is reading about it from varied sources, my most notable being Andy Rooney, who reported on a trip he took to China by stating, among other things, that he saw two farmers tie a pig to the top of a wagon, and then sit on the pig as a bench as they both rode on that wagon to a market, presumably to have the pig slaughtered. To even the jaded Andy Rooney, this was a bizarre sight.
Another source is some People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals propaganda infomercial showing how cats are boiled and skinned alive in China, and how monkeys' brains are prepared for consumption by native Chinese. Not that I care about PETA's slant on the issue (I don't), but to Orientals, a cat, dog, rat, cow, chicken, and fish are all sources of protein. One life form is not held in any higher a regard than another. We wouldn't think of eating Rover. They don't give it a second thought.
Third, Ding Chow Ping, who was the dictator in China during the Tiananmen Square massacre, really didn't put on airs when he ordered the slaughter of hundreds of pro-democracy demonstrators. Even Mao Tse Tung wasn't worried about American nuclear attacks because to him, 300 million people could be replaced by the country's women in a generation. To further illustrate their amoral attitudes, to life or otherwise, many Chinese families dump the bodies of baby girls into rivers because they would rather have a male child heir to the family name than a precious gift of life, period.
And last, my personal observations show me that Orientals can be some of the most aloof, least approachable people in America. They may be good at math or other academic endeavors, but their knowledge is based on rote instead of reason. A friend of mine taught English in Korea, and when he reviewed American and British literature with his students, and asked them how they felt about a certain character, they were unable to offer any constructive opinions. They were able to comprehend, say, Romeo and Juliet, but were unable to critique any of the scenes or characters. This observation becomes personal in that my dealings with Orientals show a marked disdain for opinion -- To them, there are only facts, and since facts are indisputable, there is no need for candy-coating your speech with your opinions about them.
IT IS THIS POINT -- their tunnel-visioned, if-A-then-B thinking, exhaustively outlined above -- that I used to explain my opinion why downtown Flushing smells like a cesspool.
Garbage crews constantly pick up the trash in that neighborhood, but what would a street sweeper do to standing water, or its remains, but spread it nice and equally about a neighborhood? Suppose just one fish store was dumping fishy ice onto the street every day for five years. Five years of street sweepers passing through would spread a thin film of fishwater and all its bacteria for a few hundred yards. Now, if ONE fish store that unethically dumps its ice onto the street could do that, imagine what several of them could do over time.
For water to turn "bad," it must have some nutrients for bacteria to survive in it. Don't be silly by saying that a puddle of water that sits for a few days will go bad and have to be tossed. What rain puddles of any import are left standing in Flushing for more than a few hours before they evaporate after a rainstorm?
The "puddles" of water you refer to are caused by the constant discarding of water rich in nutrients for microorganisms, and organic waste, in some of the least sanitary methods possible, including tossing it into the street on hot summer days. As a result, the whole neighborhood smells like an open sewer pipe. And the (mostly) Oriental shopkeepers couldn't give a damn. They have an efficient, if undesirable, method of disposing their wastewater, and they are rarely taken to task for it.
The only thing I am willing to apologize for, to Bob or anybody, is making it seem as if this was the ONLY problem contributing to the odor of the Flushing neighborhood in question. Bob, are you willing to accept that much?
And yes, Chinatown in Manhattan also smells like hell. Ever walk down the southern reaches of Mott Street, or the area around Kam Man Food Products?
And last, my personal observations show me that Orientals can be some of the most aloof, least approachable people in America. They may be good at math or other academic endeavors, but their knowledge is based on rote instead of reason ... This observation becomes personal in that my dealings with Orientals show a marked disdain for opinion -- To them, there are only facts, and since facts are indisputable, there is no need for candy-coating your speech with your opinions about them.
IT IS THIS POINT -- their tunnel-visioned, if-A-then-B thinking, exhaustively outlined above -- that I used to explain my opinion why downtown Flushing smells like a cesspool ...
The "puddles" of water you refer to are caused by the constant discarding of water rich in nutrients for microorganisms, and organic waste, in some of the least sanitary methods possible, including tossing it into the street on hot summer days. As a result, the whole neighborhood smells like an open sewer pipe. And the (mostly) Oriental shopkeepers couldn't give a damn. They have an efficient, if undesirable, method of disposing their wastewater, and they are rarely taken to task for it.
Whehter this overly logical form of thinking is a common Asian characteristic is not really the issue here. I for one don't know whether it's true or not, though in any event it's very difficult to generalize to a whole group of completely different cultures that have nothing in common except some physical features. But even conceding that Asians DO think in a highly logical, linear manner, how does that explain the smell? If those fish dealers actually thought about the consequences of disposing ice in that manner, they'd realize that it wasn't the best method - they have to smell the stink too. A much more likely explanation is the fact that the Flushing River stinks due to drainage problems. And that affects the whole 'hood.
I heard that the drainage system overflows and raw sewage is released into the river. Its horrible expecially on a hot humid day. I think that the city knows but refused to take action. And my parents, relatives and friends are NOT narrow minded or very straight foward. I myself hold a lot of creative thought. Now the only narrowed minded person here is Sliverfox who's relatives are blood related. He sees the actions of several people with the same skin color and makes
racist comments. He thinks his race is perfect and is a true MR. LA Rail. If you don't agree with LA Rail's comment then who can agree with KKK Sliverfox's comments. NOW, SLIVERFOX THIS THOUGH IS BASED ON MY THOUGH. SUPRISED?? YOU NARROW-MINDED SOB.
If it really is the smell of fish that is disturbing, it could be a matter of what one has learned from childhood. Smells always invoke memories and the emotions that have always been tied to it. This is different from sights or sounds, incidentally. "I read it somewhere."
Anyway, the smells of "oriental" food areas like Mott St., Dundas St. in Toronto, Grant Avenue in San Francisco, or King St. near Hotel St. in Honolulu are pretty normal to me, just because of my early experiences (no, I am not of East Asian extraction, I have just been around). My wife, however, can barely tolerate the fish and seaweed smell of the markets. Similarly, I used to have trouble with room temperature cheese until I lived in Europe for awhile and had no choice. And most Americans appear to have a slight buttery scent to people from Japan because of all the dairy foods we eat compared to the none that they eat. A phrase used in business there supposedly is "Smell like butter, not like soy", meaning... to do business with Westerners, act as if you think western.
Finally, to keep the message on topic, I like the smell of subways, my kids don't.
I totally disagree with this assumption. First of all, the term "oriental" is not appropriate, rather it is asian.
I think that asians (especially chinese) are some of the most intelligent and kind people you can find. And the chinese have improved Flushing, in fact, the asian population there is perhaps the only good thing going for Flushing.
The smell is not from fish markets, resteruants,etc. It is because Flushing has inferior drainage and sewage system, and there is no where to dispose of smelly garbage except at curbside. (few alleyways)
The result is the smell of rotting food and sewage. One thing is fish smells. And there's nothing you can do about that.
I am around Kam Man food products and Mott street all the time, and the only thing that smells is the fumes from trucks that cut through Chinatown.
And the fish you get from Chinese markets is some of the freshest you can find, that is why it smells so strong.
And blame China all you want, but America is partially responsible because U.S. companies take advantage of the lack of democracy and exploit women and children in sweatshops in China.
And your "shortsited" China is busy building new trolley lines and subways, that's alot more than what we are doing.
If you check out the new Pudong area of Shanghai, you'd be quite impressed.
But getting back to Flushing, the main problem is that it is being ignored by the city and mainstream companies, and given a bad name simply because it is multi-cultural. And unfortunately Silverfox, there are other people who think like you, blaming cultures for problems, instead of people in power who hold back freedom, discriminate, and prevent new subways (by stirring up false stereotypes about minorities).
Let's tie up some loose ends here:
First of all Rob, calling me a narrow-minded SOB is not the way to make me change my mind if I am indeed wrong about my assessments. To everyone else on this board, I give my wholehearted apology if I appeared to be unduly harsh in criticizing a certain group of people. I base my opinions on my observations, and if they don't represent the whole picture (whose observations do?), it is up to you to provide a counter-observation, of which you provided many. Thanks for effectively diluting my opinion several points.
As for the term "Oriental," it is a more accurate term than the politically correct "Asian." Raisa Gorbachev, being born in Asian Russia, is an Asian, as are Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, and many others. Am I talking about ALL these groups? No. I am referring to the Oriental groups -- the ones from the Orient. If someone called me an Occidental, I wouldn't care one bit. I don't call American Indians "Native Americans" either, because I am a Native American, born in New York City to American parents. What narrow-minded SOB, to use a popular taunt, determined that "Oriental" is somehow derogatory?
As I mentioned above, I accept the Flushing Creek's contribution to the stench of the Flushing area. If I am not mistaken, however, I believe the City is finally building an overflow tank on College Point Blvd near the Western Beef supermarket. The reason for the sewage discharge is that NYC's sewer system serves a dual function -- storm drainage and sanitary drainage. A rainstorm deluges the sewage treatment plants, causing the raw sewage/rainwater overflow to (necessarily) be discharged directly into the sea. One of those discharge points is into Flushing Creek. The overflow tank will catch an amount of the excess capacity of the sewer system and release it slowly into the creek. I don't know if it will process any of this effluent, but it will surely mitigate the odors.
Next, fresh fish doesn't smell. The smell is caused by the fact that, no matter how well you clean, there are still small amounts of fish left on every surface. With the rhythmic cleaning, drying, and re-stocking of the fish display chests, any surface (including sidewalks, curbs, doorhandles, and whatever) that comes in contact with the wastewater builds up an amount of the fishy water that decays indefinitely, causing a deeper and more pungent odor. I would bet that, if the people who cleaned their stores were a little more careful in how they dump their fish ice, that a large portion of that odor would go away.
Finally, to Rob King: Do me a favor, and if you disagree with my statements, present your arguments as I have above, and not like some looneytoon without an argument who has to resort to ad-hominem attacks to prove his point-less. I have been more than cordial in that regard. You owe me no less.
I've got to admit, this piece is more intelligently written than that of those who complained about you.
Well I do beg to differ about your stereotypes. Chinatown has many more "oriental" people and yet it is cleaner than Flushing.
And there are more fish markets. But Chinatown is a tourist attraction, and investors are finding some potential there.
Chinatown is growing fast, with new shops opening constantly.
The chinese stores in Chinatown do a big business due to high demand, the same cannot be said for Flushing.
Flushing is dirty not from oriental culture, but from ignorance by the city and by business. Most units in Chinatown are small and easy to run a business from. In Flushing, units like Caldor are rather large, and have too high of a price tag for chinese investors.
But mainstream investors feel that the demographics are unsuitable for business. So it's a no-win situation. Asian businessmen generally don't have the $$ required to purchase a big box unit. And mainstream (white) business people feel the location is sleezy and does not attract a profitable clientele.
And unfortunately, Wendy's has a presence problem as it is, and has a pretty poor record with having locations in minority locations. The company probably feels that Flushing is no longer profitable. That's why Genovese moved. The moved to a smaller store because it wasn't profitable.
But don't blame the asian people. Rather it is the stereotypes of outsiders that actually create the problem by scaring off investors and businessmen.
Flushing is dirty not from oriental culture, but from ignorance by the city and by business. Most units in Chinatown are small and easy to run a business from. In Flushing, units like Caldor are rather large, and have too high of a price tag for chinese investors.
But mainstream investors feel that the demographics are unsuitable for business. So it's a no-win situation. Asian businessmen generally don't have the $$ required to purchase a big box unit. And mainstream (white) business people feel the location is sleezy and does not attract a profitable clientele.
We've discussed that Caldor building before. Its size and layout is the main issue, not any neighborhood or ethnic factors per se. The building is too large for all but a relatively small number of big-box users - but they want single-floor layouts. It's really only suitable in its present form for a department store, few if any of which are in an expansionist mode. Realistically, the building will have to be subdivided to be useful, and I don't know if zoning rules would allow that.
Wow, I'm sorry this got posted twice. I posted it once, got an error message and changed the title, then it worked. I think my modem is on the fritz.
Does anybody know if the placard of R68 #2755 came from the old BMT Standard #2755?
09/06/2000
[Does anybody know if the placard of R68 #2755 came from the old BMT Standard #2755? ]
The placard you described is known as the number board. The numbers seen on #2755 are not from the BMT Standard that had the same number, but stick on vinyl numbers. These type numbers I've seen before on some Redbirds to replace rusted or missing porcelain enamel numbers boards. R-32 #3348 which is a strange re-numbering case has those stick on numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah but #3348 has that only on ONE end! That is a very odd one, that #3348.
I wonder if BMT Standard AB #2755 had the white painted numbers or did all of them get the NYCT plaques. I've seen the NYCT plaques even on D-Type Triplexes and MS - photos in "Cars of the BMT", which is a GREAT book!
wayne
It also has an engraved plastic number plate (3348, that is)
-Hank
Trains Magazine’s “Newswire” presents information on the impact of new federal safety standards on the Talgo trainsets, which was discussed here recently. The FRA extended until Oct 31 its deadline for the decision to grandfather the Talgos with respect to buff strength (static end strength). The new standard is 800,000 pounds of impact; Talgo can withstand 441,000 lb. Amtrak says the passenger compartments can withstand more than 800,000 pounds of impact.
The FRA decided to Grandfather the currently in-use Talgo trainsets through the recently tightened safety standards. Posted on Railpace Magazine’s Hot News . (Scroll down a ways.)
According to an item in Trains Magazine’s “Newswire”, the consortium constructing the Acelas told the Boston Globe that late September is the target date for delivering the first fully tested Acela trainsets. The Globe reported that service could begin in October if that were true.
Maybe by the time the 2nd ave subway...........oh never mind
Peace,
ANDEE
While taking the Amtrak to NYP I looked out the window at 30th street station in PHL, and there it is the new Acela express train. This immediately quelled my fears that it was just another scam by Amtrak to boost ridership (i.e. Acela regional). Then I pick up a Boston Herald on the seat next to me and I look at the price tag $280 for NYP to BOS. One the NE Direct train that would cost me $100. So by that proportion (2.8*1) a ticket from DC to NYP would be $375!!!!, a Metroliner is $280 and the NE Direct is $134. I could buy three round trip airline tickets (even from Regan Airport) for that much.
I could buy three round trip airline tickets (even from [National] Airport) for that much.
Have fun sitting on the tarmac at LaGuardia while I whiz on down to D.C. on Acela. Let's not knock it till we try it! Sometimes, you do get what you pay for. :o)
Here is the list of fares between NY and Washington, D.C.:
Metroliners: $120 on weekdays and $98 on weekends one way.
Acela Regional and NortheastDirect: $67 on off-peak hours and $80 on peak hours one way.
If you use AAA card, you will have a 10% discount. Peak hours are Friday and Sunday between 11AM and 11PM and other specific dates like Thanksgiving.
Chaohwa
NARP members also receive a 10% discount on Amtrak fares.
Shame that if you belong to both AAA and NARP, Amtrak won't give you a 20% discount. (sigh)
Student Advantage gives me %15 or %20.
Bob,
As soon as it's running, I say we try it out. I'll zoom on down to Philly, you can join me, and we'll go on to DC for a little railfanning on the Metro, MARC, and VRE. Whadayasay?
KP
Let's do it!
Be sure to do railfanning on weekdays. Both MARC and VRE don't run on weekends.
Chaohwa
Thanks. Maybe we could work out a time that you and others could join in.
Bob
My dad told me yesterday evening that while on a Metroliner this week, the passenger across the aisle was the head of Amtrak Northeast Corridor Operations. He said they hope to start Acela in late October. Also, he said they are considering making a cell phone free car on some trains because many people are complaining about how loud some people are on their phones which is actually how my dad figured out who the man across the aisle was! E-mail me for more info. Also, they will be starting a frequent traveler program with businesses.
That's the word up here in Boston too; one trip per day with the ACELA Express equipment to Boston by the end of October. The equipment was up here two weeks ago for more testing.
I will be riding the ACELA Regional "electric train" from Boston to NYC tomorrow for the first time, so I'll see if any of the crew has more information. I'll be sampling the Business Class service to see if it's worth it; my suspicion is it will be a trade-off between overzealous cell phone users (business class) and lots of families with rambunctious kids (economy class). My return is Wednesday evening, and I'll report back thereafter.
[It looks like some air-traffic-impacting weather on Wednesday, so the train looks like a great option.]
And that's...
For once, AMTRAK's timing is right. If it's employees can actually provide the service, they can eat the airline's lunch. Air service is bad, getting worse, getting more expensive, and there is little than can be done about it.
I agree 100%, Larry. I am a 20+ year veteran of the Boston-LaGuardia route. I have flown it 30 or so round-trips per year for the last 10 years, all in the jump seat (cockpit), so I've seen the clouds from both sides now (with apologies to Judy Collins). Before that, in the "back of the bus." One-way ,walk-up, unrestricted fares have gone from $12 in the early 70s to $203 now. This is among the highest "dollar per mile" route in the country, if not the world.
The air traffic system has degraded substantially just in the last few years. One can not put the blame on one factor; there are many. But the three major ones are the fact that the airlines are using smaller planes, with more frequencies (including the new regional jets, which fly higher and faster than commuter "props" and take up valuable airspace). Plus, LaGuardia, which by law is a "slot-controlled airport" (meaning a maximum number of take-offs and landings per hour) has been partially deregulated, allowing new entrants to add flights. Finally, the air traffic control system is woefully out-of-date (in terms of technology), and the FAA's procurement system is horrible. Just as any highway or railway would, when you add that one extra vehicle that puts the capacity over the edge, you get congestion that can't be beat. Add on a bad weather day, (see? you knew I'd get a weather comment in here) you're cooked.
If AMTRAK does ACELA Express right, the business community will flock to it. Benefits include:
One-third less cost for the business traveler, with center city to center city service in approximately the same amount of time
No taxi fare - most business people won't take the subway :-( in Boston or NYC
No being trapped in your seat
Ability to use electronic devices for the whole trip (oy, cell phone hell!)
Much less liklihood of weather-related cancellation.
There are currently two airlines flying the shuttle route between BOS and LGA (USAirways and Delta). Time will tell whether there is enough erosion to support both services.
Railpace Magazine’s online Hot News says that Acela Express service will begin Oct 29 with one eastbound Washington to Boston train in the morning, returning in the afternoon .
Don't count on business class to relieve you of rambunctious kids. I rode and "Empire" train a month ago in business class which had 3 or 4 kids running around and nary a cellular phone in use.
But let me start from the beginning. It was chaos in Utica, with the conductors handling the boarding of the NYC-bound train fairly badly. Because Utica does not have raised platforms, only one "coach" door opened, and it was difficult to see if the business class door was receiving passengers. We must have been in the station for 15 minutes. When my wife and I finally found our way to our business class seats, I muttered something about how the families with the kids must be in the wrong seats. When my back was turned, my wife saw the kids' caretaker give me a look and elbowed me hard in the ribs (I did deserve it, as my temper was getting the best of me). Later, after striking up a conversation with the Grandma (in an effort to relieve any tension), I learned that they had come from Buffalo and bought what she called "Custom Class" (the old name for business class) tickets on purpose. I also learned that the other "mother," who had graciously moved up so my wife and I could sit together, had received no help from the Amtrak conductors in finding her and her son's seat in business class. When she finally managed to find out from them where to go (first car, the other side of the cafe), she had already stowed her bags somewhere in coach. When she asked for the conductor's help in getting them down, apparently the man roughly threw her suitcase down in the aisle and quickly left her to deal with getting to the front of the train on her own. Now, I realize that this was a crowded Sunday evening train, and that porter service is probably not in their job description, but this sort of flippant treatment is absolutely unwaranted. This woman needed help, and the conductor couldn't be bothered. I told her all about the new satisfaction guarantee and encouraged her to see if she could get the guys name and write to Amtrak for her money back.
I just got off the R142 on the 6. I rode it twice today, and found it very impressing. I'll probably end up catching it tomorrow again. I also got some pics. I can't wait until they pass the 30 day test.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Today is day 6 or 7
Make that day 7 its been in service since Friday.
I meant the Kawasaki's on the 6 line.
Clark
And PB Dave meant that it was the 7th day in the row of testing on the 30day acceptance test.
I rode the R142A 6 train today. I was quite impressed. Very smooth and quiet, announcements were clear, and the displays really help people who wouldn't know their way around.
Front letter sign very easy to read, as well as digital side signs.
A/C was very good, and the seats were fairly comfortable.
Also saw a yellow work train, looked like a few Redbirds painted yellow. This was sighted at 47-50 IND going south on the local track, at around 11:18am.
To set the record straight - today's Metro (page 8) explains it all.
Here's why the El will be closed for the next nine (or maybe 10) weekends:
Installation of ATC signal system (not ATO) - this will work interlockings and turnouts remotely as well as control train movement
Platform pours and station work at Berks, Huntingdon and Church
Placement of overpasses at Huntingdon and Church
Painting of overpasses at Allegheny and Erie-Torresdale
Platform repair at Spring Garden
"Other" track projects
Through the end of September, service will terminate at Spring Garden. After that, it ends at 5th Street.
/*Before I went into the exciting world of trains, I was in the TV repair business. I hesitate to mention this because there may be a former customer or two here.*/
We never fixed any TV set, save for the crappy RCA we're stuck with now....
/* I remember the old B/W sets that had tubes but none the less were 'instant on' models.*/
Saw a Panasonic like that once. really WAS "instant", moreso than today's TVs (which seem to require a warm up period!)
/*The manufacturer would put a silcon diode across one side of the on/off sw. This would allow the filaments of the tubes to 'idle at about 1/2 powr whit no B+ applied to the tubes. This, of course, meant that the manufacturers had to do away with the power x-former.*/
Ugh, series string. I *HATE* series string radios and TVs.
Postwar 7 inch electrostatic sets (remember THOSE?) used to often be series string. No fun to work on at all, without an isolation transformer. I'm amazed UL, etc, even alklowed such a dangerous design to exist.
/* Now what relevance this has to the original thread, I can't imagine but I'd love to hook Hilly up to the output of a 3DC3 (anyone know what a 3DC3 is?) and then ask her about Whitewater. */
That's cheating, because in most TVs, the HV rect draws it's filiment voltage from the flyback, not the main transformer or series string. And the focus rect would grab it there too. The shunt regulator would be hooked to the normal spots, though. Hey, remember sets with focus rects and shunt regulators? oh yeah, tube/transistor hybrids? I collect old radios (and occasionally TVs), so I know a bit of this, and I have an RCA recieving tube manual Nah Nah:P
Focus Rect = 1V2
Eventually we started to use Solid rectifiers that plugged into the 3A3 socket but didn't require the filament winding on the flyback.
I can't remember the tube designation for the shunt rgulator - 6HU5?
I guess that means that I'm finally cured.
6BK4, I think was the first. I recall reading (I predate this), that GE had a MASSIVE recall on a number of typesd in the 70's. They were paying money for the returned tubes (even if used), and all. I also recall seeing lead cases ones...
Absolutely correct. The 6BK4 sat next to the 6LQ6 Horizontal Output on the RCA and similar. On the Zenith, I believe it was the 6HU5.
My uncle's Zenith set was a hybrid tube/transistor set.
Remember Quasar's "Works in a drawer" set with mini-circuits? There was a TV store on Rt. 23 a mile or two north of I-80/US 46 that had one of those sets on display in their front window.
My uncle's Zenith set was a hybrid tube/transistor set.
Remember Motorola's Quasar "Works in a drawer" set with mini-circuits? There was a TV store on Rt. 23 a mile or two north of I-80/US 46 that had one of those sets on display in their front window.
09/07/2000
[I know a bit of this, and I have an RCA recieving tube manual ]
That's an oldie, I doubt if they publish those anymore. What year are we talking when it was published?
Bill "Newkirk"
Mine are from '40 and '71
I think they stopped in the mid 70's. I used to have a 50's vintage one until it walked off :(
Just to be a little on-topic, the R-16 PA Amp used a vacuum tube (6SN7) if I remember correctly, and had a vibrator.
Was it a vibrator or was the B+ derived from the 600V with a
big ballast resistor?
A vibrator? I hope they cleaned it when they were finished with it.
That's worth a rim shot.
Vibrators were also used in car radio circuits in the days of vacuum tubes. On top of that, A. C. Gilbert put them to use on American Flyer trains as sound generators for their diesel horn and air chime whistle. I met a fellow at a TCA meet a few years ago who bought out the entire stock of vibrators from a longtime electronics store in Denver, Fistell's.
Those Flyer trains are like a time capsule with their 1950s technology.
Where you found the vibrator, you often found the gas filled rectifier tube 0Z4 nearby!
Makes me want to dig out the old TV troubleshooting guide which told you which tubes to test depending on the nature of the problem. There was one symptom which was accompanied by "Failure of almost any tube can cause this problem. Test all tubes."
Some TV's wired many of their tube filaments in series to avoid extra transformer windings. Blowing a filament, not an uncommon occurance, usually resulted in no picture and no sound on such sets. Take all the tubes out and bring them to a tube tester.
When I had my TV repair business, we had 2-3 tube testers in a corner of the shop for the do-it-yourselfer. That was up until the late 70s. Wher does one find a tube tester in this day and age?
" Where does one find a tube tester in this day and age?"
in heypaul's apartment... i have a precision 912 tube tester in a wooden carrying case that works... i bought it in a coney island juntique store about 10 years ago for $25...
Juntique?!?
steve... i misspelled the word... it's junktique... i used it to indicate that it wasn't a fine antique store, but more like a flea market or garage sale type of establishment...
I see. Hey, as long as the tester works, you made out all right.
Fistell's in Denver had one the last time I was there several years ago. I believe they even still stock tubes.
I not only have a Radio Shack emission tester, but the Bingo Hall I run still has four working 1960's RCA black & white tvs with a full compliment of tubes, plus a spare for parts. I also have an early 1950s Admiral 16" b/w, a 1959 Zenith 21" b/w, a mid 1960's Admiral 13" portable, and a 1968 Zenith Color Console in my collection. All are 100% tube except the color set which is a hybrid with a few transistors - and with the exception of the portable they are all in working shape - the portable has an annoying intermittent.
I also have an AM/FM console (without stereo decoder though it can play stereo records and take inputs from a stereo tape or receiver, a 1950s Admiral six tube AM, and a number of five tube AM sets, most of which still work. Lastly I have an ancient AM/Shortwave set with a mix of loctal and two digit numbered tubes. My tester doesn't even have sockets for them!
Off topic but fun!
Gerry
I wish things were as simple as they were back then. I have a 27" Zenith PIP monitor in my den. After 12 trouble-free years, I venture to say I'd trash it if it ever failed. Things have just changed too much and I don't want to go back to school.
It's not easy to fix ICs. In fact, it's usually cheaper to get a new one, if it's smaller than 32".
-Hank
vcrs are like that too !! after 2 repairs its time to get a new junker
( like the new rail cars ) ...
I have a RCA VBT200 which I suspect is one of the first VCR's built for consumer use. I think it goes back to about 1977. You experts might be able to date it more specifically. I have the original box, dust cover, instructions etc. It was a two speed (SP,LP) top loading VCR. I retired it about a year ago, mainly because the wire on the remote was too short. It worked perfectly except for a portion of the clock digital readout that was burned out. It was a bear to program, and you could only program it 24 hours in advance.
I wrote to RCA thinking that they might want it for their museum, but never got an answer. Sentiment prevents me from throwing it out, so I am storing it in its original box. I guess my heirs will get to trash it.
>>> I have a RCA VBT200 which I suspect is one of the first VCR's built for consumer use. I think it goes back to about 1977 <<<
There was quite a bit of rapid improvement in VCRs, and to tell how close to the originals it was you would need to look at the features. I know the first VCR I bought was a Hitachi some time in the early ‘70s for over $800.00. At that time it was uncertain whether Beta or VHS would become the dominant system. I did some comparison shopping and believed I was getting the latest features then available. The tuner(s) consisted of eight separate buttons which could be individually adjusted and fine tuned with a screwdriver to individual TV stations as part of the installation. You could program four events (in a twenty-four hour period) but the programing had to be done at the VCR, not through the remote control, with the setup using the digital clock display rather than on screen programing. It had three recording speeds, but the choice of speed was made at the VCR rather than with the remote control.
The remote control was a rudimentary thing. Besides turning the VCR on and off, you could step in one direction through the eight channels, and you could stop, record, play, fast forward, or reverse the tape, (but no stop action, or any way to see the picture while going forward of backwards at an increased speed). If you were using the fast forward, the only thing that told where you were on the tape was a resettable mechanical index counter on the front of the VCR which was too small to be read from more than two feet away from the VCR.
Tom
Your remote sounded a lot better than mine, so I dug my old VCR out to check. The wired remote on mine is a remote pause only. It only has that one feature.
I had forgotten how big that VCR was. It must be close to four times the size of the more modern ones.
I've seen some of those first generation VCRs. They're big. Did any of our Subtalk regulars ever own a Betamax unit? My gut feeling was that VHS would catch on, which it did.
My nephew in Maryland had a Betamax unit that he claimed was far superior to VHS. He finally gave up on it when it became difficult to purchase prerecorded or blank cassettes.
Betamax was far superior to VHS. It was Sonys short-sightedness that caused them to fail. Sony charged other companies to use their technology. JVC (inventor of VHS) did not. One of Sonys only failures.
Peace,
ANDEE
Beta featured better picture resolution than VHS.
The cassettes were smaller and less bulky too!
>>> The cassettes were smaller and less bulky too! <<<
Because of the smaller size, there was also a more complicated tape movement and a shorter recording time. This more than anything else caused me to choose VHS. Betamax ended up joining the 8-track cassette as a great invention that did not win the market.
Tom
I've got a 1954 Bulova clock radio with five tubes which still works. The filter capacitor was replaced in 1971. The clock no longer works; it needs a new gear which meshes with the worm gear on the motor shaft. Add to that a 1954 Magnavox Collaro phonograph with a tube-powered amplifier. It still works fine and is excellent for 78s. The tonearm is good and heavy - you can actually guide it with your hand as it tracks the record groove. If you have a record which skips, this sucker will fix it.
>>> The tonearm is good and heavy - you can actually guide it with your hand as it tracks the record groove. If you have a record which skips, this sucker will fix it. <<<
What an interesting conundrum. Since 78 rpm records are collector's items as much as your phonograph, and playing them with a heavy tone arm degrades them (unlike CDs which do not wear out with repeated plays) each time you play a 78 record on your phonograph you are surrendering one irreplaceable item to enjoy another.
Tom
Old Tom some old 78s were transfered to DIGITAL audio using the old original etc....
78 rpm equipment with a modified needle & tonearm then recorded with
a good ""microphone"" fed into a mixing board & mastered into DIGITAL recording form for permanent archiving !!
The results were better than using a standard broadcast quality
Shure m447 or current broadcast quality phono pickup device thru a standard turntable!!
So you mic ""the real thing"" & transfer it to DIGITAL.!!!
I don't use it all that much. Since its ceramic cartridge doesn't pick up nearly as much surface noise as a magnetic or moving coil cartridge would, you hear more of what was recorded than clicks or pops. I have dubbed some 78s onto cassette, filtering out just enough surface noise to get a good sound without washing it out.
09/23/2000
[The tonearm is good and heavy - you can actually guide it with your hand as it tracks the record groove. ]
Are there any quarters scotch taped to the tone arm to achieve that extra weight like we did years ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
( dont forget the reel to reel tape recorder ) !!!
especially the tube models like my ampex!!
09/23/2000
[( dont forget the reel to reel tape recorder ) !!!
especially the tube models like my ampex!!]
Good Morning L.A. and Salaam !
We have a lot full of retired NYCT buses for sale or scrap. maybe some of the Hollywood elite can scrape up some dough, buy em' and run them in L.A. in case if the strike becomes protracted! Something to give the folks at BusTalk to photograph when visiting the city of Angels !
I had an old Ampex reel to reel, model 755. Numerous belts had to be changed every couple of years or so. Wear of mechanical parts deemed unreplacable spelled the end to old 755 !
Bill "Newkirk"
Nope - no quarters. It's just a heavy tonearm. The tracking force is something like half an ounce, which works out to 14 grams. You have to use a sapphire stylus; a diamond stylus will literally stop a 45 rpm record dead in its tracks. It's that heavy.
I also have a Pioneer RT 1020L open reel deck, bought used seven years ago. Luckily there is a TV repair shop not from where I live which repairs open reel decks. Most places don't mess with them anymore. I took it in a few months ago to have a transistor replaced in the recording circuitry. It's got a four-channel playback head, a drawback to the days when quadrophonic was introduced.
IIRC, that troubleshooting booklet listed that particular symptom as a horizontal black bar through the picture with lots of noise. Our Magnavox B/W set once developed black and white bars across the screen with a loud humming sound. Scared me to death.
Usually a 100 MFD Filter off the B+ end of the rectifier would resolve that
Are you sure it was a 6SN7? It seems like a poor choice for an audio amplifier. The 6SN7 is a medium mu dual triode that was used primarily for in the vertical deflection circuits for television (630 chassis). It also has a maximum plate dissipation of 7.5 watts for both sections together.
I would have assumed that something like a 6L6 would have been more appropriate for a medium power class A audio amplifier. Also, I'd assume that they would have used the 6L6 (metal) rather than the more common 6L6-G (glass).
BTW, I'm assuming that you were referring to a 6SN7-GTB, the 6SN7, 6SN7-GT and 6SN7=GTA were all obsolete by 1955.
No, I'm not sure at all. Today I looked for my old R-16 drawings to verify it but the drawings seem to be gone with the cars.
Sorry to hear it.
I may have been one of the last generation of electrical engineers that received instruction as to how to use vacuum tubes. I even had to use one in a SOA design back around 1965.
I was wondering if you would remember whether they kept the filament voltage applied all the time or had to wait for the cathode to warm up before using the PA's on the R16's.
When they put fans in the Boston PCC cars they devised an electronic circiut to vary the speed. A thermister was used to determine temperature, and the voltage across it was amplified by a 12AU7. A pair of power tubes then were used to control power to a pilot motor which operated the fan rheostat (the warmer the car the faster the fans ran).
Actually, the 6SN7 was quite common as a signal amplifier, until the 50's and the amazingly popular 12AX7 came out. For a power amp stage, I'd assume that they'd use either 6L6, or 6V6s. They'd likely use a vibrator / power transformer for isolation purposes, and also because the output tubes would want around 250 - 350 on the plates, not 600V. I'm guessing the amp would be about 4 tubes, and maybe another for the power supply. They sure weren't "hi fi", and I doubt you'd need too terribly much power anyway.
Anyway, I've seen lots of audio amps (jukebox) with 6SN7s in them. I believe the origional Williamson amp used them too.
I am hoping that some of you might be able to help me out here. I am looking for anybody that has pictures of 1938 IRT "Wolds Fair" Car # 5655.
Car 5655 is the only car of this class that still exists. I am looking for photos of the car at the following places:
A) In service on the Flushing line
B) In service on the Astoria line
C) In service on the Third Ave. El.
D) Laid up at any yard during it's service life.
E) In work service
F) In it's current condition in Coney Island Yard.
In addition, I am looking for anyone that might be willing to donate any parts for this model car. Including but not limited to:
1) A Side signbox
2) A Front Rollsign
3) A brake stand
4) 8 IRT type grab handles
As of this time, I can not say why I asking. I will say, Items donated will be put to good use.
Please mail me directly.
MARK618@WEBTV.NET or DTYPE6112@WEBTV.NET
Thanks.
-Mark
[In addition, I am looking for anyone that might be willing to donate any parts for this model car. Including but not limited to:
1) A Side signbox
2) A Front Rollsign
3) A brake stand
4) 8 IRT type grab handles
As of this time, I can not say why I asking. I will say, Items donated will be put to good use.]
You wouldn't be trying to outdo Heypaul and build an entire car in your apartment, would you? :-)
Is that what they call a "railroad" flat?
Surely you've seen http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/irt3.html, right?
Mark
Look also for "The Incident" - I believe it is under "movies". - http://www.imdb.com. Details regarding the movie set, a mockup of a 1938 Steinway WF Lo-V are available there.
wayne
Mark, is this the next overhaul project for the Museum?
Dropped off my car to be serviced today, and was "treated" to a ride on the N in Brooklyn.
It was a long wait for the train at 59th Street. Sea Beach service was cut, and B service was improved, recently. Once every nine or ten minutes.
Then the train was held at 59th Street for several minutes.
Then it crawled up 4th Avenue with nothing in front of it.
Then at 36th Street, a B went in first, costing a few minutes more.
All that was before the nightmarish, twisting ride through Dekalb, Lawrence, Court, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall -- a far cry from the direct express to Canal Street it once had.
Yuck.
The N is always SLOW after Pacific Street. When I used to have to take the N from 8th Avenue to Pacific St to get to work, usually it took about 5 minutes to 59th street, and then was held there every day becacuse they were being "held by the tower" as the conductor put it. But after I got off at Pacific, the train stayed there for about 5 mins, and then left the station extremely slow. I probably could have RAN faster to Court St.
That's why it's called the Slow Beach
All part of Barely Moving Trains BMT
The "N"ever and the "R"arely
Actually, I prefer Nearly the slowest and Really the slowest.
Was it an R-32 or R-68 consist?
(Was it an R-32 or R-68 consist? )
It was an R-32. The only good news was that I got to stand at the front window and see how slow we were crawling.
I should have asked this before: was the train running express along 4th Ave? That would be all the more galling.
he said that a "B" ran in front of him so therefore it must've been the express tracks. duh.
As a motorman, I truly dislike working that line.
When I was a kid in New York I had two dreams. To be a Major League baseball player for the Yankees ( even though I hated them, I wanted to play for the best) or a motorman on the Sea Beach. Since you are a motorman, why does the Sea Beach always get screwed?
I'll say this: it was one of the best lines in the system till they killed the EE. Until that time, it was express on Fourth Ave. both way virtually all the time, a quick hop over the MannyB, then Bway Exp. to 57/7. When, in effect it was "combined" with the EE and sent out to Continental, that part of the trip felt endless. On nites & weekends when it returned to 57/7, it became a pleasure to work once again. Now even though it got shortened to Ditmars Blvd., the all local and tunnel routing alone with those hairpin slow curves between DeKalb & Canal make a motorman feel he is driving all day on the LongIsland Expressway during the afternoon rush! The Sea Beach route itself always seems to be a victim of General Orders plus the motorman always has to worry about UFO's being thrown from overpasses and the sides of the track onto the roadbed.
I don't know how old you are but apparently you do remember when the Sea Beach was a great ride, but I never knew the EE had any connection with it. That is news to me. Just when did that combo take place and how far along what route? I know, or at least think I do, that the EE never went to Coney, so where was the Sea Beach EE connection.?
There wasn't one. The EE was Continental-Whitehall local via 60 St. tunnel and Broadway Local. A nic treat too because the first couple of years they had R1-9's on that line, neat riding them on a line where they ususally weren't found before the merger. [Nice running them too].
When the EE was elminated the N assumed the Queens portion of the run.But it was the N as us older cats remembered all the way from Coney to 57/7.From there during daytime hours on weekdays only it was local to Continental.
Personally I liked that run. Didn't have to make so many short trips, it felt much like the D train in a way. But that was when itwas the real Sea Beach express, most of the way.
I'm no motorman, but wouldn't the 'R' be worse? All underground, all local, all the time, from the deep reaches of Bay Ridge to the heart of Queens. Imagine if it went all the way to 179th Street! And a motorman posted earlier about not liking "5-trippers" on the 'L', which is also all local, but at least the scenery changes.
BTW, the 'N'ever and the 'R'arely are just as maddening in Queens. Especially Queens-bound. I've said it before. Several 7's whiz by at QBP before you see and 'N'. Several E's and F's do the same at QP before you see an 'R' or a 'G'. And this is rush hour.
Also, I often have occasion to ride the 'N' back into the city evenings, and there is this sort of lull in service around 7 pm. I once waited for 30 minutes on a Manhattan-bound Astoria line platform, and watched 2 or 3 trains go by signed 'Not in Service' before finally boarding one. There must be some kind of shift changover around then. I've learned not to try to go into Manhattan around 7 pm on the 'N'.
(BTW, the 'N'ever and the 'R'arely are just as maddening in Queens.)
At least they get a few extra trains at rush hour, some of which turn at Whitehall. The latest MTA schedule (posted in many stations) has more frequent service from Queens on these lines than from Brooklyn (same with the F).
The basis for this is probably ridership. Probably the part of the N from Astoria to Manhattan has a lot more riders than the part from Bay Ridge. Declining ridership is probably the reason the N has fewer trains now, while the Canarsie L, with greater ridership, has gotten more. Probably low ridership, as compared with the Brighton Express, Brighton Local, and West End, some 15-20 years ago, with the beginning of Manhattan Bridge problems, is what doomed the Sea Beach to the tunnel and the horrible Cortlandt St.-City Hall turns. I wonder how it might be possible to obtain figures on the number of fares collected at each station on a typical weekday.
That might be worth a shot. But let's face it, as long as the Sea Beach meanders into the bowels of lower Manhattan while the D and B cross the Manny B you know damn well ridership will be less on the Sea Beach. The Manny B crossing shortens things considerably.
I usually never run after trains, but when I'm taking the N or R, I race to get inside as fast as I can, because the next train won't be for awhile. I try to avoid the Broadway line. It is one of the most pathetic lines that runs throughout Manhattan, mainly because of long waits and no express service.
I have often wondered if the TA or whoever runs the trains have a grudge against the Sea Beach line. It seems to me that it has been relegated to the barnyard and neglected all to hell. Notice how unkept the stations are, the roadbeds in Brooklyn are a disgrace, and the route the train takes into the bowels of Manhattan make for a long and drawn out ride. Express it in Manhattan, and over the Manny B, terminate it at 57th Street, and walla, we have a train worthy of praise. But I'm living in the past, or dreaming---of course.
Fred, there might be a couple of reasons I could think of: first, the Sea Beach has a long reputation (not it's own fault) of being the Line most popular with 'Subway Surfers' (the lunatics who ride the tops of trains for the hell of it). These anti-social acts only bring the line bad publicity.
Second, it predominantly in a cut, and cuts by nature become breeding grounds for trash and illegal dumping. I am sure the TA has to be on top of things as best as they can in regards to roadbed hazards. I remember hearing once that a T/O on a run down the line encountered a discarded bicycle on the tracks!
Doug aka BMTman
I thought the West End line was the most popular with surfers. Anyway when it comes to dumping garbage, the old Franklin Shuttle was the king of that heap. I wonder if it has gone back to being a dumping ground since the renovations, especially between Botanic Garden and Prospect Park.
[I thought the West End line was the most popular with surfers.]
I'll have to find that Village Voice article, but I thought the 'N' had the most notorious body-counts from subway surfing.
About the Franklin Shuttle: Nope. The line is as clean as a whistle. I've taken it quite often and it is a proud testiment to the seriousness of the neighborhood, as well as NYCT in keeping this historic line up and running better than before.
The only trash I see are lots of cans/bottles that are accumulating by the Franklin Shuttle station on that heavily ballasted embankment.
Doug aka BMTman
dougie...i think you deserve a lot of the credit for keeping the franklin shuttle spotless... when the mta started their "adapt a subway line" program, you immediately volunteered to take the franklin shuttle... i know you are out on the tracks at least 3 times a week with a burlap bag picking up redeemable cans and bottles...all those nickles and dimes you earn help you afford to buy the gasoline needed to move your kreisler 300 from one side of the street to the other on alternate side days...
Thanks, heypaul, my secret is out! ;-)
Paul, I heard you have voluntered to do the Brighton between Neptune Ave and the Brighton Beach Station, singing anti Russian Songs
During the aftermath of the Wanamaker Washout of 1956, work crews were heard singing the Volga Boat Song while clearing rubble.
[i know you are out on the tracks at least 3 times a week with a burlap bag picking up redeemable cans and bottles...all those nickles and dimes you earn help you afford to buy the gasoline needed to move your kreisler 300 from one side of the street to the other on alternate side days...]
heypaul, actually that's not entirely accurate. I use the change from the redeemable cans and bottles for my "MTS Fund". This is my attempt to raise enough money so I can buy a brass HO scale R-32 two-car subway set without having to go to the local Capo for a loan. :-)
(Would you care to make a donation?)
As for my Kreisler 300: I am forced to beg for change on the A Line on the evening rush hour to cover my car's insatiable appetite for high-octane products. (anything you can spare would be greatly appreciated...;-)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>...afford to buy the gasoline needed to move your kreisler 300...<<<
That's rich---LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
About the Franklin Shuttle: Nope. The line is as clean as a whistle. I've taken it quite often and it is a proud testiment to the seriousness of the neighborhood, as well as NYCT in keeping this historic line up and running better than before.
Neighborhood residents probably appreciate the line and realize how important it is, thanks to the scare they went through not long ago when NYCT thought about closing it entirely. They can't take it for granted, as something that'll always be there.
Honorable mention for dumping:
The Port Washington LIRR in Queens (also a cut)
Living back in 1955 old Fred, must be the Arcadia Smog
Until this weekend the weather had been unseasonably cool and even now there is no smog. Wrong again Bob, old buddy.
The Broadway line is a mere shadow of its former self, thanks in no small part to the bridge fiasco.
I know exactly how you feel and it rankles me. Once the Sea Beach was the signature line of the BMT. No more, I'm afraid. I remember reading Holiday Magazine in May of 1950 when there was a big feature about Brooklyn. The train that got the ink? The Sea Beach. Some in the TA or somewhere doesn't like my train at all. If only I were the President, I'd make it something special by an EO, Sad to say I cannot do anything about it but complain=====aand I'm 3000 miles away. So who'se going to listen to me?
fred... i just want you to know that i hear your lament about the fate of the sea beach and i do feel your pain... unfortunately, that will not prevent me from turning the sea beach open cut into a sanitation land fill when i am elected senator from our fair state of new york... only by raising the sea beach from below grade level to about 100 feet above level when we reach the final level of the sea beach land fill is there any of hope of returning it to its glory days of the 40's and 50's... only then will it truly be at the top of the heap...
heypaul, tell me when to start dumping...
I'll do what I can to fill it in.
Doug aka BMTman
doug... i think if you took most of the posts here recently on a couple of hot topics and dumped them into the sea beach cut,you could raise the level of the roadbed by about 4 inches... i don't know what you could do to counteract the smell though...
heypaul, it sounds like I'd have to contact the DEP to get some of those "giant odor-eaters" (like they use at most sewage treatment plants) and add that to the Sea Beach dumpsite so that the route doesn't become any more offensive than it is already. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Ouch Doug! I know you love the Brighton "D" but remember that's a local and partly a cut, too. If they could make the Sea Beach run again in Manhattan as the Broadway Express, send it into Canal Street and then over the Manny B it would speed up the train again. And what idiot moved the Northern terminal from 57th Street to Ditmars? The made it a long, slow train. The terminals when I was a kid was Times Square, 42nd Street to Coney Island. Let some other damn train take the rest of the route to Astoria and let the Sea Beach run express in Manhattan while the R can local for all she's worth. In fact the R could go back to Astoria. There would be a little tie-up in the railyards but that's a cheap[ price to pay to restore the BMT to what it ought to be.
Fred, the main problem is how are you going to increase ridership on the Sea Beach? It probably was rerouted to the tunnel in the first place because of less ridership than the B, D, and Q. Hey, I noticed your coded message to #1 Brighton Exp Bob raised the dander of the Webmaster. I was going to explain to him that you were very excited, having gotten back from your trip to New York. I could speculate too about the cause for your excitement. Wanting to ride through a good open cut, you gave up, in despair, waiting for a Nearly the slowest, and gave into temptation and got on a Brighton Local train instead. One of Train Dude's Concourse R68s D trains that are so clean and shiny they look spanking new. You enjoyed the ride but you were still uptight when you got back from California for fear some Subtalker like heypaul might have caught you red-handed on the D.
The secret's out and I'm exposed. You caught me red handed. I rode the Brighton and enjoyed it. But let's leave it at that until the clamor dies down or Brighton Beach Bob will never let me hear the end of it.
I think that both of you guys should just lay off poor old Sea Beach Fred. If I recall correctly him and I share the same birthday (10/27, Fred, correct me if I'm mistaken) and as we all know that is a very significant day in the history of the subways in NYC.
Peace<
ANDEE
PS---Fred I truly apologize if I am confusing you with the Guy from the 50th state--I've not been well lately
I definitely remember it was October 27th.
I once mused that I like the subway because I was born only two days before it's anniversary. Then when someone came on saying they were born on the same day, I had to strengthen the bond by coming up with a formula.
I've also come up with the theory that since I was born two days off, that's why I'm not as fully immersed as some others.
If my son had come out an hour and twenty minutes earlier, he too would have shared his birthday with the subway, albeit 91 years later.
If he'd waited another 23:40 (I can imagine my wife giving me a dirty look as I type that last phrase), he would have shared his birthday with the opening of the 63rd Street tunnel, six years later.
But he's right in the middle. He LOVES the subways, oblivious to the proximity of his DOB to these landmarks. It's more because of how I exposed (some would say corrupted) him to the joys of riding at an early age.
Hence the bond is heriditary and environment- it has nothing more to do with your birthday any more than your astrological sign determines your personality- although some people take that stuff dead serious!!
That's why I'm such a NYC subway fanatic. I was born on October 27, 1940. The New York Subway opened on October 27, 1904.
June 22 would have been a good date of birth for you as well. It was on that date in 1915 that the Sea Beach line opened for business.
For me, I was born on the day when IND was exactly 37 years old! (IND opened 9/10/32 and I was born on 9/10/69)
Mike the Mailman in Denver!
[For me, I was born on the day when IND was exactly 37 years old! (IND opened 9/10/32 and I was born on 9/10/69)]
My firstborn daughter was 3 months old on that day.
IIRC, that was the day the Mets went into first place for the very first time. I remember it well.
Apparently, nothing significant on the subway ever occurred on my birthday, November 19. Nothing that I'm aware of, anyway. I do know that I share the same birthday with Alan Young, Roy Campanella, Kathleen Quinlan, Meg Ryan, and Jodie Foster. I am also one day older than Bo Derek.
Your birthday, November 19, is probably the most significant day in the history of World War II. On November 19, 1942, the Soviet Army launched a two pronged attack north and south of Stalingrad. Within three days the two groups met and began to close the trap on the German 6th Army of 330,000 men at Stalingrad. On Feb. 2, 1943, the Krauts gave up Stalingrad, having been reduced to 91,000 men. Stalingrad was the most decisive battle of the Second World War, so you have a very historical birthday Steve.
Is there a subway in Volgagrad? That would make this on-topic!!!
>>> the Krauts gave up Stalingrad <<<
The war is long over, the Germans are now our friends. Isn't it time to quit using ethnic slurs?
Tom
Do you know Steve8AVEXP? He lives in your area/
Do you know John Smith, he lives in Los Angeles County with you, along with nine million other people.
Oh Pigs, you're a gem. A sarcastic gem, but one, nevertheless. I take no offense.
I would
You would what? BTW, I almost sent out an SOS signal for you. Where the hell have you been? You know you've got competition. There's a Brighton Express on this site. Any relation to you?
Unfortunately, Michael and I have never met. Perhaps our paths will cross someday.
Thanks Steve. I'll remember that.
Then I am to believe that the train would still run but at a different level. At least you're not going to destroy it, are you?
yes fred... the train will still run... but at a much higher level... when we get done with filling in the cut and leveling it off like the staten island dump, it should be running a couple of hundred feet above level ground, making it the highest trackage in the system...
heypaul: You got my vote.
Yeah, but your plan will REALLY make service "stink".
So who's going to listen to me?
Certainly not your students :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well what do you think the N and R stand for? Never Rrives. Har har har.
Aahhhh. Those were the days.....
I was wondering if station agents can move the unused unlimited "value" from one card to another. I have a number of unused 7-day promotional cards. I want to use them, but the card readers on buses wear out a portion of the design. I would like to use them and not be limited to the subway as that would add 20 minutes to my commute.
Well hello there friend, have I been missing your posts or has it been a while ?
I think our favorite Station Agent will confirm that they CAN'T do anything with unlimited cards, i.e. move remaining TIME to a new card, let you add VALUE to a unlimited ... but maybe if it's never been used they can kill the graphics card & issue a new one. (They can see that it has never been activated).
Of course some of them give you a story about getting the original card back, but know they have no real reason to keep it.
Mr t__:^)
We can not do anything to an unlimited card. All we can do is give you an envelope to send to 370 Jay Street.
So, I guess it is the LONG way to and from work if I want to preserve my cards. It will be nice to see Stillwell. Thanks for the help.
I would GUESS that the problem is the System can't tell the difference between a $63 monthly card that hasn't been "activated" yet and one that will expire at midnight that day ... so they can't let the Station Agent do the exchange because it would lead to fraud.
Mr t__:^)
Even if the person bought a card from "my booth", walked away, and came back (even within 6 minutes, and even if no one else bought a card or had me check a card) we could not void the card or render any assistance other than give them an envelope.
We can void a card if they have not left the booth. We are also unable to refill a "yearly MetroCard" or a Railroad Plus card (the ones issued by LIRR or MNCR covering the Railroad plus unl;imited subway for a month)
M-N & LIRR have two flavors of Mail-N-Ride (Value & Unlimited) can you re-fill the Value version ?
Mr t__:^)
We can add money to the value cards.
If the card is a Railroad Plus Card (A + will be near the month of validity) then we cannot add money, and in fact the computer, even if we try to add money, will not allow us to continue the transaction.
I found an old MTA document from May of 1998, which seems to confirm your reply, add therefore is still in effect:
- "Mail & Ride Plus - $66 Commuter Rail MC ... completely expires at the end of the month. This includes the value on the card ...."
"Station Agents must not add value to, or trade value from ..."
However:
- Mail & Ride $33 Value MC ... station agents can add value or move it to another card.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks. The software on our computer will automatically detect what kind of MetroCard we insert (to try to add value) and will not allow us to add money to: Unlimited, Mail and Ride Plus. Employee Pass.
Do the mail and ride unlimiteds expire at the end of the month or are they normal?
The Mail & Ride Unlimited Monthlys function ONLY for the calendar month that they were issued for.
The M & R $66 Value MCs work for the same time frame, so if there is money left, you lost it.
The M & R $33 Value MCs are still good (for bus/subway but not LIRR) after the end of the month. You can also move it, i.e. to the next month's $33 card. BUT the next month's card won't work until the beginning of that next month.
At least that's what the May '98 MTA document says ....
The Express Bus Plus card at $120 works for 30 days after you first use it. We still have some customers that buy/use them, but more of our customers buy mulitples of the $30 (33) value card.
Mr t__:^)
On the road this afternoon testing from 180th St to Brooklyn Bridge!
-Stef
I see the set has been reunited. A few days ago, I posted that 7221 and 7222 were alone on the test track. BTW, the film with that shot is still in the camera.
I'm a member of the Planetart Society. I used to subscribe to Scientific American, but got tired of not understanding what they were talking about after the first parr. Anyhow their web site reports:
"The morning of September 1, 2000, our planet had a close encounter with another member of the solar system a newly discovered asteroid.
This celestial visitor, given the rather catchy designation 2000 QW7, passed about 12 times farther away from our planet than the moon (or a distance of approximately 4,613,000 km from Earth). While this may not sound like a close encounter, in an astronomical sense this asteroid was close enough to raise some eyebrows."
Upon reading this report our friend from Sheephead Bay had a panic attach. Let me be the first to assure him that it's all right to come back out in the sunshine.
What has this have to do with subways ... better take that fan trip NOW, because you never know !
Mr t__:^)
I thought heypaul would be hiding in his motorman's cab.:-)
This afternoon, I rode the R142 on the 6 from Grand Central, around the City Hall loop, to 33 street. At Spring street, I noticed a man, sitting across from the electric sign map, writing on a piece of paper. When we were the only two left on the train at BB, I asked him whether he worked for the TA, and he told me that he was in chanrge of making sure that the electronic stuff worked on the R142. He also told me that 7213(the car I was in) and 7218 both had the same problem, that the maps jammed. It was a very nice converstion. He also told me that it would take at least another near, before all R142's replaced the redbirds on the 2,5,6.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Whoops! Sorry I missed you; I was in 7220, and the left-side strip map was malfunctioning while going uptown. It froze up around Astor Place, after blinking two stations at once, came back at 33rd St., and froze again at Grand Central. I got off at 59th around 4:10, and it still said 42nd St. Don't know if it was a glitch because, apparently, the C/R forgot to activate the route at BB.
So you were in the last car. Did you ride the train around the city hall loop??? And walk through the train??
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
I didn't ride around the loop, gotta do that next time, but I think I went through the train (or was that the Bombardier set? Yes, I rode the R110B, R142, and R142A all in one day). I was with a friend, and we were in school uniforms, dress shirt & tie. I was the, umm, bigger one. You probably saw us. BTW, it was the first car when I was on it, on its way to being seen at 125th by ArtJ.
I noticed the strip map had problems in car 7211. The train was at Elder but the map was stuck at Middletown Road.
If this was the same train at 125 around 4:30 it was still having trouble. Got off the express and the local was in the station with the doors closed. It then left and the doors never opened. No one was able to get on or even off.
Clark,
Do you mean another YEAR before all of the redbirds are replaced? In your last sentence, you typed NEAR...
Thanks
A man wearing a striped work vest was seen standing in the Green Line tunnel near the Shaw station facing the track Thursday morning; the TO blew the horn and applied the brake. Subsequently a dead body was found in the area and authorities wondered whether he got hit by a train. The train was evacuated, service was delayed while trains ran around the stopped train, and normal service was restored by afternoon rush hour. This from a
Washington Post online story. Perhaps a less cryptic story will follow.
Notice the rave review of the handling of the situation one woman gave. Imagine if this were in NY....
(discuss here)
(not here)
They're lucky they have a bypass track there (where the Yellow line trains normally lay up). Otherwise they might have been SOL.
wayne
Here's an update on the Metrorail Green Line incident from the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31495-2000Sep7.html
OK; I spoke too soon (as usual). Having read the Washington Post article, my previous post is hereby recanted. I didnt have my facts straight.
wayne
This is the second time someone was hit and killed by a Metro train within the past three weeks.
While driving through DC on August 29, I heard over the radio that some man reportedly committed suicide by jumping in front of the Red Line Metro at the Friendship Heights Station. Nothing about the incident was mentioned on the news by the time I arrived to New York.
Does anybody know about this incident?
I was on Metro that day (8/29) and there were all sorts of announcements about trains bypassing Friendship Heights outbound. I asked one of the Metro booth folks and he noted that service had been suspended about 1 PM that day but resumed about 3, with trains bypassing in both directions and shuttle buses running between Tenleytown and Medical Center. (I also recall announcements for elevators out at 3 other stations - when this happens, Metro provides bus shuttles to the next nearest stop with a working elevator.)
The 11 PM news in DC had a short blurb about an 'accident' but not a whole lot on details other than the disruption to Metro Red Line service and a woman, I believe, taken to a hospital.
The R110B made its scheduled run today! I rode it all the way from Euclid to 168th St. Problem: there were no automated announcements. The C/R made an interesting announcement along the way, to the effect of "Ladies and gentlemen, today you are riding the R110B New Technology Test Train. We apologize for any inconvenience we may have caused, but we reassure you that the new trains we will order will be full-length."
The other day when I was riding the C/R kept apologizing too. Also, since the side displays are blank, most people didn't know what train it was.
Well they also don't want a Wendy's. I put two signs up there requesting that Wendy's re-open. They were both torn down, while memorial signs stay.
I guess Flushing's Wendy's will remain a useless unused piece of property, as this community obviosly cannot or does not want to move on.
It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train. And with commuters not shopping or even using Flushing anymore, the area will be in a continuous downward spiral.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
As someone who travels to NYC by subway, I think I'm not wasting my time with Flushing, and instead take the E/F to Forest hills or Kew Gardens where there is a Wendy's, not mention other places to shop.
I wish Flushing could be more like Bay Ridge, terminal of the much lesser used R line. There are tons of places to eat and shop there, and it's not nearly as dirty and smelly as Flushing. Even though there are less bus routes in Bay Ridge and a much lesser used subway line than the 7, downtown Bay Ridge (between 86th and 95th on 4th ave) is very busy. Yet Flushing's shops aren't very busy at all, as most people are just walking from subway to bus and vice-versa.
It's just a shame that an area with so many bus lines and a busy subway terminal is depressed, run down, and dirty.
Also I think Flushing-Main street #7 subway station is one of the smelliest in the system. It always stinks of sewage in there, especially toward the western part of the station.
Well I'm putting one more sign up there, then it's three strikes, and Flushing's down the toilet!
(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)
I've got one question for all of you though, then I'll shut up
Will Flushing become the next Jamaica, a once thriving downtown now depressed?
That stench may also be emanating from Shea Stadium, based on the way the Mets have been playing lately.:-)
I tend to think of Flushing as a vibrant community in NY terms (then again, maybe it's just 'cuz there's a Starbucks now). The main intersection near where the subway entrances are is not very nice with the closed stores there(*), but the Asian businesses on other blocks and on side streets appear to be flourishing. And of course, a large part of Flushing is residential, and the buildings appear to be quite well-occupied.
(*) BTW, what makes you think it's the community that doesn't want new stores to move in? It's not like people walking by on the street seeing your signs have any say in whether Wendy's is in Flushing.
Maybe part of the problem is that Flushing tends to cater to its residents and to Chinese and Koreans from around the city and metro area, not really to commuters that hop on the bus and subway there. If you're not looking for Chinese or Korean goodies, you may be out of luck.
But families from the suburbs drive to Flushing on a weekly basis to eat food and buy groceries. Students from Manhattan go to Flushing on weekends to sing karaoke. I know someone in Boston who asks me to periodically send her a specific item available in the Northeast U.S. only in one of the tea shops in Flushing (and not in Chinatown in Manhattan or Boston). Most of the non-restaurant stores aren't open late, but if you go on a fair weather weekend you'll see people out in force doing their shopping and eating. I agree that walking the streets can feel empty on weeknights.
And you know, a few months ago I went to eat at a Chinese restaurant on Main St. The restaurant we went into looked at our group of 4, and asked if we had made reservations, because the restaurant was going to be very full-- this was on a Thursday night! We didn't have reservations, but they made room for us anyway, and sure enough over the next hour the restaurant filled up and started having to take names down at the door. Next door, another restaurant was having a grand opening gala, diners admitted by invitation only. And the several times I've eaten there on weekends the restaurants have generally been packed.
I tend to think of Flushing as a vibrant community in NY terms (then again, maybe it's just 'cuz there's a Starbucks now). The main intersection near where the subway entrances are is not very nice with the closed stores there(*), but the Asian businesses on other blocks and on side streets appear to be flourishing. And of course, a large part of Flushing is residential, and the buildings appear to be quite well-occupied.
I have heard that the endless reconstruction of the Main Street station was at least in part responsible for some of the local store closings, by causing both vehicle and pedestrian traffic disruptions. Any business is going to suffer if the roads and sidewalks are torn up and would-be customers simply can't get to it. And these effects can linger long after the work is finally completed. 14th Street in Manhattan is still somewhat rundown in comparison to other areas, a condition that's been attributed in part to an interminable repaving project that was finished in the early 1990's.
It sure looks vibrant to me. The times we've been there the pedestrian traffic was so thick it was difficult to walk quickly.
I tend to think of Flushing as a highly Americanized Chinatown. I do like shopping for chinese music and things. But Flushing has little to offer compared to Chinatown. Flushing has 4 places to buy chinese music, mostly full price. Chinatown has 20 music stores, alot with 30-50% off. In addition, there are many places to buy TRADITIONAL
chinese art and designs, like lanterns, dolls, and costume. Traditional chinese clothing is very easy to find in Chinatown, but not in Flushing.
Flushing is just such a crappy neighborhood in so many ways. You can't win. They lack mainstream stores, they have empty stores, they don't have a Wendy's, it's dirty and smelly, and whatever asian culture is there is highly westernized to the point of extreme cultural dillution.
[It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train.]
With two McDonald's, a Burger King, a Pizza Hut/Taco Bell, and a KFC, all w/in 2 blocks of Main & Roosevelt, what makes you think that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters? Sometimes on the way home from Queens College I stop by the Pizza Hut to grab a personal pan pizza. Sometimes, if I don't eat breakfast at home, I eat it at the McDonald's on Main Street, just outside the bus stop for the Q25 and Q34.
[The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.]
Blame it on the Flushing River! Rather appropriate, isn't it?
[(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)]
Although I can't say anything about Caldor, and Wendy's replacement are the other restaurants above, I can say that there's a Duane Reade on Main & Roosevelt, which would replace Genovese.
The 2001 calendar is now in the TMNY gift shop. Shop us on-line at tmny.safeshopper.com.
In a recent thread there was some question as to who used transit in LA.. Today' LA Times provides the following data from the LAMTA
While the word count may exceed 30 the data is apparently public record from a government entity. the article claoms 450k riders/day
Percentage of bus riders who do not have a car, truck or motorcycle in their household: 49%
Percentage of bus riders who do not have a valid driver's license: 68%
Percentage of bus riders who use mass transit to get to work: 69%
Percentage of bus, rail riders with income of less than $15,000: 68%
Percentage of Los Angeles County's population with income of less than $15,000: 20%
Racial and ethnic background of MTA bus and rail riders
Latino: 51.9%
Black: 22.3%
White: 12.6%
Asian/Pacific Islander: 8.6%
Other: 4.6%
Source: MTA data for 1996-98, 2000
Here is a link to the L.A. Times story which produced the statistics regarding the transit ridership in Los Angeles. The thrust of the story is how riders will be affected by a possible strike.
Tom
Calling all Subtalkers...
Do you have any pics of the Deuce at its seediest, in the mid-70s to early 90s? Quite a contrast to what's there now. I'd like to use them on a page in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
I'll keep my eyes peeled, BTW, loved your Grand Concourse history on:
WWW.forgotten-ny.com
even got the building one of my relatives lived in.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope this doesn't start a long thread but I actually miss it!!! As a teen in the sixties that's where you went to see some great dirty movies. Now 42nd is too sterile, much like Disneyland or a mall!!!
>>>As a teen in the sixties that's where you went to see some great dirty movies<<<
You pervert...(takes one to know one)8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>As a teen in the sixties that's where you went to see some great dirty movies<<<
You pervert...(takes one to know one)8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
They were bound to go bye bye anyway.
Why go to Times Square and perhaps mugged
(I was never mugged or accosted there but...)
when you can stay at home, and call up all of that stuff on your computer for (almost) free.
Elias
If we let them, those who believe that they know better than we do what is good for us would turn the whole City into Disneyland.
Yesterday around 3pm a redbird was stopped South of E180 with police on the structure and plenty of transit employees in orange vests on the structure. Downtown trains were running on M Track. While weaiting for a 2 train, the redbird came into E 180 on the "Downtown Local" track. What happened? a 12-9?
BTW- the C/R on the 2 on M track opened the doors on the uptown side even though dispatcher( via station PA) said open downtown side. Doors were finally opened on the downtown side.
The Train was the 14:52 out of E 241. The train went BIE south of E 180 the cause was a Brake Pipe Rupture. This was a poorly handled by Control Center. The person at Control Center aked the T/O if he hit a signal and to check for stripe marks. He did that but no Stripe marks where found and the home signal was around the 9 car and the stop arm was down so Control was wrong the train never hit a signal. Then they tell the T/O to go back to his cab and move out. While the T/O head back to the front a T.S.S arrived and found a Brake Pipe Rupture around the 8 car. This made Control Center look dum. I mean they assumed this T/O hit a signal but never did.
As far as the Police they are called to almost any BIE.
That was the 14:28 E 241 St.
Dave,
Thanks for the info...
Do you know of they had any trouble isolating the car and moving the train out of there?
Marc
Life on nearly any railroad. Supervision always looking for what the man at the controls did first. Heaven forbid it could be a signal or equipmant, or track defect.Luckily it was a short trial in this case and the operator's innocence proven promptly.
Yup, that's right. Earlier, I had to work a 5 tripper on that god-forsaken Canarsie Line. I'd LOVE to meet the person who invented this torture and clock him/her over the head with my brake handle. Guess where my reverser would go?
Congradulations, that is what paying the dues are all about! In the 1988? contract, the TWU gave up the right for their say-so in picks and schedules. Management can write any work program they want without protest from the TWU. There are no rules about cab time within an eight hour day, standards on breaks between trips and you have a minimum of 20 minutes for a lunch break. Combine this with 1.12D and you can come in on your RDO to work another 5 trips. Hit Sonny Hall with that brake handle partner.
Back in the 1940s into the early 50s, they did run a sort of "express" service on the 14th St. line in rush hours. Trains terminating at Myrtle Ave. made all stops to 8th Ave. Manhattan. Trains to/from Rockaway Parkway and Lefferts Blvd. ran non-stop between Myrtle Ave. and Lorimer St. I guess that the spacing between trains was long enough so that it worked, since there was no way for the express trains to pass the locals.
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, they used the BMT Standards as the "L" express and the friskier MS as the "LL" locals. I've seen this mathematically explained with the speeds/headways etc. calculated.
wayne
I remember when I had to do 5 Trips on the No.7 Line. That was back in 1989 and never been on the No.7 since then.
Well, the good news is that next pick, most of the five trip jobs are eliminated. There are only three available on the late p.m shift. There were four jobs added to the p.m tour to accomodate surging ridership.
I hope you had a couple of Slant R40s to help ease your pain...
It's only a 38-minute trip (without delays) from end to end.
When I get the handle, I'll gladly trade places with you.
wayne
OH REALLY? After five months of doing five trips, you'd be waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming out loud to no one "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT'S ME TO GO?!?"
NIMBYS TARGET AIRTRAIN
they may be doing us a favor
Peace,
ANDEE
"The suit, filed by South Eastern Queens Concerned Neighbors and the Committee for Better Transit, argues that construction on the
project — which will connect the airport with the Jamaica Center
subway and Long Island Rail Road Jamaica stations — is damaging
their homes and businesses, causing traffic jams and making their
neighborhoods noisier."
Is this a joke or what, that neighborhood can't get much worse then it is & the JFK Air Train doesn't have anything to do with it.
Traffic ... another joke ? The traffic is very bad on the Van Wyke, but what does that have to do with something running down the middle of the road ?
Mr t__:-(
So what else is new?
It seems that there are reports that some homeowners have seen cracks in the homes that weren't there prior to the construction of the Air Train project. So this is no joke. Also, all that highway traffic is now being diverted along the service road which has increased traffic next to their homes....
Not true. Most of the highway traffic is staying on the highway during the construction. I was out there looking at the work within the last week.
OTOH, it is true that the construction is clogging traffic on the highway.
The neighborhood couldn't be worse? I've walked around there, and it looks a lot better than some parts of Manhattan. Of course, I have to agree that the marginal impact of the El line in the middle of that humongous eyesore called the Van Wyke will be hard to notice. As for the effect on the traffic on the highway, that should end when the construction is finished. It looks like all the columns will be in place by the time we get a hard frost.
Considering the construction already done along the Van Wyck, it seems too late to stop the project now. And any LIRR Rockaway proposal would fire up a different set of NIMBYs.
>>>...any LIRR Rockaway proposal would fire up a different set of NIMBYs<<<
SO true
Peace,
ANDEE
Should I go out and buy a ticket to the Ozone Park Station yet??
LOL
What cracks me up is the part about them demanding the state use the abandoned LIRR Rokaway line instead of the new construction. Typical NIMBY attitude. Build it, but build it elsewhere. Perhaps the current NIMBY's should meet the NIMBY's that continiously kill off any idea of re-using the Rockaway Beach ROW.
(Perhaps the current NIMBY's should meet the NIMBY's that
continiously kill off any idea of re-using the Rockaway Beach ROW.)
Perhaps we should arm both camps and have them fight it out in the parking lot of Aquduct Racetrack. Whichever group completely exterminates the other wins.
As we know, the desire to avoid the whiter and more powerful NIMBYs of Rego Park is just part of the story. The need to serve the even whiter and more powerful people of Nassau and Suffolk County via transfer at Jamaica (in the even they choose to use it) is another part. The unspoken desire of the airlines and the Port Authority to avoid mixing the (once upon a time) exclusively affluent airport customers with the (in most of the U.S. but not here) predominantly poor and minority transit riders is another piece of the puzzle.
I'll give the multi-transfer option a chance. To me, the real outrage is the price for transit transfers.
The need to serve the even whiter and more powerful people of Nassau and Suffolk County
Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders ....
>>>Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders ....
AKA----WHITELANDIA
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>AKA----WHITELANDIA <<<
Uh-oh...Ron Kuby's in here! Feel free to vandalize at will, Ron will defend you!
www.forgotten-ny.com
LOL... yes I stole the phrase from him
Peace,
ANDEE
Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders ....
AKA----WHITELANDIA
I had meant to be a bit sarcastic. All of those communities are heavily minority - almost 100% in the cases of Roosevelt, Wyandanch and Gordon Heights.
There is a perception among some city residents that Long Island is basically an all-white preserve. To the extent that ever was true, it certainly isn't true today.
You forgot New Castle.
Roosevelt: That is where Howard Stern is from. He always talk about the blacks moving in and the whites moving out......
3TM
(Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders .... )
Somehow I doubt that the airlines and the Long Island polticians supported the Airtrain to make it easier for the people of Roosevelt to get to JFK. THOSE aren't the Long Islanders I was referring to.
Why all the carrying on about train noises? Do we have NIMBYism when these hotshot young bucks make noise with their hot cars? Or the thoughts of constant heavy vehicular traffic? But the worst racket that comes to my mind was when I was visiting a friend in Ozone Park quite regularly and a mile and more away from runways the sound of the jets blew your ears over and over.
As for the racial and upper crusty element my heart bleeds for them [haha] on either side of the fence. It always amuses me to hear the upper crust carry on about what "we" should do for one group or another, but please keep it a distance from me. Likewise hearing those who say they get stuck with things that they can't put in white areas.Imagine if the once poor Irish had a voice in stopping rail lines 100 or so years ago...we wouldn't have any rail lines!
[It always amuses me to hear the upper crust carry on about what "we"
should do for one group or another, but please keep it a distance from
me.]
Sounds like the attitude of the people in my old, Jewish (I don't mean to say anything bad about any Jews here on this board) school. The school encouraged giving money to funds that help black people, but having a number of black friends who lived in the "city" (or for that matter any friends who lived in the "city" and were not Jewish) generated suspiction. The students were not necessarily racist (they would treat suburban blacks and black jews with respect) as much as anti "city" as defined by inner city neighborhoods that were either poor or had no Jewish people.
And that above statement has nothing to do with rail or transit. Many students from my old school had never used transit. A number had used regional rail such as the Paoli R5 and the Reading mainlines (R3, R2, R5). Some had used the 44 bus which goes from the suburbs to Center City, and a few even used the northeast end of the 65. Even so, very few people would willingly use any other bus/rail line that they don't generally use even if it is the most convenient.
Sounds like the "Train-to-the-Plane" issue. When that was put together, it served no poor community along its route except the well-off residents of Howard Beach and the surrounding areas. The current plan does not stop in any poor neighborhoods along its route. As for the fare, we all know it will not be $1.50 each way, but more than that. Remember also that airline passengers are currently paying a surcharge for the plan to be built. Nassau and Suffolk residents, regardless of their race, ethnic or economic background, will not see any great impact on the traveling convenience. They are most likely going to still use the highways in some form or another to get the plane, because the "car" mentality is still a "big thing" in the suburaban mindset. As far as the Rego Park area, this is a very mix neighborhood, with a diverse ethnic background. Support can't be all that great, but trying to get homeowners along the abondons ROWs is like pulling more than just teeth. They literally don't want any city contruction projects right in their backyards and the possible noise and rail traffic there as well. The Van Wyke project is better in one way the it does not impede too heavly on local residents. If there is damage to local homeowners and loss of revenue to local merchants, there should be a special funding to help those folks out, and not be such a threat to their livelihood. In the end, the AIR Train is meant only to server customers who can pay the fare, which i think it will be around $5 each way which does not help airport workers trying to find a easier way to work. Maybe they should be given a special "TRANSITCHEK" ticket to help pay there costs per month as to reduce the use of automobiles by these workers. That would be the better plan than to keep the AIRTRAIN for just the "elite rider."
The idea of a 'train-to-the-plane' should be organized around a one-seat ride from the airport to the business district. Few people going on a vacation will use public transit to go to and from the airport. Think clearly about this: How much luggage are you carrying, how many children are with you, etc. Running it to Jamacia is a boondoggle in the worst sense. It should go directly to both Midtown and Wall St.
-Hank
"The idea of a 'train-to-the-plane' should be organized around a one-seat ride from the airport to the business district."
Agreed in general, but JFK is not New York's "business airport", LaGuardia is. Given the length of most flights from JFK, most travelers are commuting from their homes to and from JFK. (you don't spend a half day at the office if you're leaving on a 5 hour flight).
The 2 hour day trip flights go out of Newark and LGA.
Also, considering the length of flights from JFK most travelers -- business or not -- carry a fair amount of luggage.
Chuck
I received a query from a writer looking for maps and schedules of the trolley lines in New York City for around 1900 (pre subway). I gave them a list of the names of the trolley lines I could think of, but here at TMNY we have little in the way of schedules and maps for around 1900. What resources can I refer them to?
I can only hope this "writer" may have been Caleb Carr. I can't wait for the next in the Dr. Kreizler series. The Alienist and The Angel of Darkness being the first two. Angel...'s plot began with the sighting of a kidnapped child on an el train. I was hoping the next novel would be set a bit later and reference trolleys and/or the subway. Anyone with a fascination of late 19th early 20th century NYC history, and who likes a great yarn, should read his books.
Perhaps the ERA's Sprague Library? Try having him contact ERA at era@juno.com.
The Transit Museum archives may also be a good place to do some looking.
--Mark
There may be something in my home library on this. Give me some time, please - it may take a day or two.
Perhaps back copies of the NY Division Newsletter would help.
The following volume is available in the Queens Central Library (LI Div). It should help you.
Historic trolley guide to suburban electric lines of the New York metropolitan area : within a 50-mile radius of New York City, as of 1914. R 974.72 H
Strictly speaking, NYC did not have any trolley cars in 1900. They had street cars. There were no overhead wires on which to run a trolley. Also, they had very few of these. The first electrics did not go into service until 1898 (or was it 1900). They did have a vast cable car network.
By 1900, NYC was the 5 boroughs. Trolley cars were running
in the outer boroughs with overhead wire. In fact, trolley
service dates back to ca 1892 in Brooklyn. By 1900 I'd estimate
at least 50% of the old horsecar routes had been electrified
and many more new electric lines had been constructed.
By 1900, NYC was the 5 boroughs.
Strictly speaking, are you referring to "Greater New York" the official name for the 1898 consolidation? The term "NYC" still referred to its preconsolidation boundaries in 1900 - at least according to the contemporaneous literature I've read.
Yes, strictly speaking it is The Greater City of New York. It
may have been common usage in 1900 that "New York City" still
meant Manhattan. [Ah, but how about The Annexed Lands of The Bronx
which had been part of New York City for a few decades prior to
the 1898 unification, and the ca 1892 overhead wire ordinance of
Manhattan for whatever reason did not apply there]
While this may have been the lingo of the
day (and still is...in Queens and Brooklyn one still "goes into the
city"), are you aware of any official, legal distinction between
Greater New York and New York City in 1900, and if so, when did
that distinction officially disappear?
Getting back on topic, Brooklyn did, as I stated earlier, have
trolley service in 1892. The trolley era is considered to have
started in 1888. Manhattan had cable car routes starting in 1885.
These were converted to electrified conduit operation ca 1894/95.
To the best of my knowledge, other than possibly experimentals,
Manhattan never had any trolley lines (except for the northernmost
few blocks of several lines which crossed into The Bronx). If
Ray Crapo is reading he could probably provide more specifics.
Manhattan had cable car routes starting in 1885. These were converted to electrified conduit operation ca 1894/95.
I thought the Lenox Ave [street car] Line was electrified much later ca 1898/1900, as I'd mentioned in an earlier post.
I've seen 1894 or 1895 as the date of the Lenox Ave conversion
in several places.
According to George Hilton's opus The Cable Car in America, The Third Avenue Railway converted its cable lines to electricity in 1899.
The Metropolitan converted its cable lines in 1901, with the last Broadway car leaving the Battery at 8:27 PM May 25, 1901, ending street cable operations in New York.
Jeff H. - Your posting sent me into the library. The best reference regaring the lack of overhead electrification on Manhattan Island with the exceptions of the Bronx lines for short distances (Willis Avenue was a long line in Manhattan but had a plow pit) is Vincent Seyfried's "Third Avenue Railways System Roster of Equipment". He has all the cable to electrification dates in it and never once mentions overhead trolley wire, even on an interim basis. All of the conversions occured after the 1892 law anyway. I believe that your statement is quite correct.
Now, about "New York City", et. alia. My understanding is that New York City went out of existence in 1898 when it combined with the City of Brooklyn to form "The City of New York". This is the name that appears on every traffic summons and other legal document to this day. It may be possible that, except for some obscure legal or insurance purposes (like bus lines that still retain the titles of predecessor trolley lines to limit liability), there may really be no "New York City" at all! The R1's had "City of New York" on them and R1's always told the truth. However, if I have it right (and certainly may not), many Third Avenue Elevated cars had "New York City Transit System" on their letter Boards during the 1940's and 1950's. Do Wasons also tell the truth? Someone else out there may wish to comment on this and that would be appreciated. As far as the "Greater" appellation, I'll have to go back to the drawing boards on that one.
Hmmm ... after Unification, the combined IND, IRT and BMT were called the New York City Transit System, too ..... and that evolved into the New York City Transit Authority. So, legally speaking, shouldn't the TA's name have been the City of New York Transit Authority or even the Greater New York Transit Authority?
--Mark
R142 cars galore!
Subway cars with the Upside-Down Letter Syndrome
R29 #8660
"Grasmere I.R.T."?
The R74 train
And other transit pictures and oddities
All on my Transit Pictures 10 page:
http://nav.to/rmmarrero -> Express Train -> Transit Pictures 10
Does anybody know which line that infamous car chase took place under.
Read about it on this page, Subway Bibliography: Films, Documentaries, and Television on this website.
Under the West End Line (todays "B" train)
Peace,
ANDEE
Supposedly, one scene was shot in Ridgewood along the M line, but I haven't been able to pick it out.
The West End (B train) Line. However, the inaccuracy in the scene is that a train marked for the N (Sea Beach Line) is used in the infamous chase sequence. Hollywood blew it again!
Doug aka BMTman
Actually that isn't Hollywood's doing. You may notice that many scenes are not really at the station that it's supposed to be. In one instance I've already mentioned "Night Hawks" the beginning sequence the station said 174 St. but it wasn't at 174 St at all.That is common practice and you may notice it in other shows. So the N on the West End line is the same reason.
IIRC Don Harold told me years ago they do that intentionally so it isn't easy to plot a crime using a movie. I could have qouted wrong, its been many years. But that's how the TA wanted it.
On "Law and Order" they have had subway murders at the 106 & Bway station. Needless to say, though 106 is a large 2-way street, there is no station there.
Somewhere I read that the film's director wanted a "clean" set of cars
for that scene. The only cars available didn't carry a "B" sign at that tme, so it displayed an "N". I'm sure every transit buff picked up that error. Filming in the winter was tough, as many of the cars were usually dirty. Don't they wash them as much during the winter?
Chuck Greene
There are many subway 'legends' surrounding the filming of "The French Connection" and virtually every other suway involved movie. As for car washing, cars can be washed as long as the temp is not below 29 degrees F. (I suppose that's because of the acid we mix with the water) As for the large 'N', I doubt that there is any truth to that story. The changing of an end sign or roll is a matter of less than 1/2 hour so if it was an issue, it would have een addressed. More likely, the director wanted a colorful end sign in the shot and the N was gold while the B was black (at that time). As for greffiti free cars - I'm sure that the movie was shot prior to the real epidemic struck.
The R42 cars in the movie (#4572-4573 etc.) were part of the "N" group of R42's: #4550-4595. The "B"'s group of cars (which they shared, oddly enough, with the "A" and "AA") were #4596-4695. I don't think they used "B" cars and changed their roll signs.
wayne
That is correct. The chase sequence was filmed between January and March of 1971, and the graffiti epidemic took hold about a year later. There were some other gaffes, such as the train of R-32s directly above Gene Hackman's car just as that other vehicle smashes into it as he takes the turn from Stillwell Ave. to 86th Street (or attempts to, anyway).
OTOH, the original Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed during the epidemic itself, but there isn't a speck of graffiti anywhere on any car of any train. Well, almost - you can see some red substance splattered on the side of R-22 7339 as it leaves "28th St." after the train has been seized. The funny part is, that splotch wasn't there when the train first pulled in.
I think is was shot in 1971. The graffiti movement started at a later date did it not?
Clean??? wasn't the whole city on the verge of bankruptcy back then?
I doubt you could have found a clean piece of the city anywhere!!
What year did the fiscal bottom drop out for the city? Just wondering?
In 1971, the "graffiti movement" was just getting underway, at least in the subway. New York City's fiscal problems didn't become apparent until John Lindsay left office on January 1, 1974 (Abe Beame, his successor, had been Comptroller in Lindsay's second term and had warned of fiscal problems soon to come), and by 1975 they were at their worst.
David
>>>>Filming in the winter was tough, as many of the cars were usually
dirty. Don't they wash them as much during the winter? <<<
In those days the winters were colder and we got more snow, therefore, more salt would splash onto the windows along el lines. My theory...
www.forgotten-ny.com
IIRC, we got a fair amount of snow in 1970-71. The following two winters were milder, with a lot less snow.
There was a time that subway cars did not get washed. The only time they looked clean was when they got a paint job.
Does anyone have any idea when they first started washing cars?
The first car washer in the subway system opened at 207th Street Yard in 1960.
David
Do the tagged cars go through the same washing , or do they go through some other process??
Normally tagged cars are cleaned by hand before going through the mechanical wash.
When the R-1/9s started inching their way through the car washers for the first time, the gold "City of New York" lettering on their sides which had been obliterated for years became visible again. I remember seeing that lettering during the late 60s.
Are they still washing as much as when the graf. epidemic was at it's highest?
The goal is to wash a minimum of 70% of every car fleet every week. This means washing approximately 4,200 different cars at least once each week. I'm not sure what the rate was back in the 70s but there are more car washers in service than there were 25 years ago.
Incidently, for 5 extra points, in what month and year did the TA proclaim the fleet clean & graffiti free?
It was May 1989. A ceremony was set up involving some graffitied R-27s, the "official" last graffitied train. The ceremony happened, but almost all media outlets were covering the funeral of Board of Education Chancellor Richard Green, which happened to occur the same day.
When NYCT does something right, nobody notices :-)
David
Also, don't forget that during the window scenes, the train ws on the express track during the whole chase, but miraculously was on the local track when bypassing the stations.
"B" line, but using the "N" line's 1969-vintage R42 rolling stock.
Featured units: R42 #4572-4573, still in service.
wayne
Does anyone know the origin of the original town names in Queens, such as Flushing and Jamaica? I have seen information about the origins of many of the old town names in Brooklyn, but never of these names in Queens.
Jamica, Flushing, Long Island City, Middle Village
and you can tell where is queens an area is by the first 3 numbers of it zip code as each of the orignal towns has it own 3 number code, 113-- flushing, 114-- jamaica, etc
No, it's Jamaica, Flushing and Newtown. Long Island City was a city and had before been a part of Newtown.
Does anyone know the origin of the original town names in Queens, such as Flushing and Jamaica? I have seen information about the origins of many of the old town names in Brooklyn, but never of these names in Queens.
Flushing dates back to the days of the New Amsterdam colony, being the (Anglicized) name of a town in the Netherlands. Dunno about Jamaica.
Jamaica was named for the Jameco Indians (Native Americans) who inhabited the area before European settlement. Newtown was another "original" settlement, the name of which is now reflected in the odd-angled road which cuts its way through Queens, and was the westernmost part of an indian trail through Long Island, and in the creek that separates Breukelen from Queens County.
Check out Our Towns at LI History.com.
R-142A 7251-60 have arrived and are at Unionport Yard in the Bronx.
To sum up what's here this far: R-142 6301-30 (30 Cars from Bombardier) and R-142A 7211-60 (50 cars from Kawasaki) which give you a total of 80 cars. 80 down, 1000 to go!
-Stef
If your travels this weekend take you to the 2000 Fall Trolley Extravaganza in King of Prussia, PA, this weekend (Friday night and Saturday Sept 8 & 9), please stop by my table and say hello!
--Mark
Say hi to you in person? Surely you're joking Mr. Feinman.
Yes, Mr. Feinman will be there in person. I had the pleasure of meeting him a few years ago at the Trolley show. Are you coming. Mike?
I'll see you there if you come. I'll be at the show around 1:30
Chuck Greene
Say hi to you in person? Surely you're joking Mr. Feinman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's wrong with that? You don't like socializing?
-Stef
I am sorry that I will not be able to attend. However, having met you in person in the past, I wish you much luck (&$$).
Peace,
ANDEE
Are there many subtalkers that are planning on attending this show?
Is it at the mall or nearby?
It is at the Holiday Inn which is supposed to be right next door to the mall.
There is info about the show at this site under "Upcoming Events"
Primarily a Train Dude question since I know he worked on them.
Is the side sign on/off control tied in to the H trainline?
I've observed that whenever the train crew turns off the
trainline HVAC the signs go dark.
Related question: over which trainline(s) is/are the digital
signal for the signs sent?
The digital information is sent over dedicated trainline wires on the electric portion (SS1 and SS2). On the litton plugs between cars there are 4 wires to carry the information from the A car SCU to the B car. The fluorescent lights in the side sign are tied tot he HVAC circuit so the signs will go dark when the HVAC momentary 'off' button is depressed. However, if you look at the sign, even with the fluorescent light off, the sign still displays the last message.
What digital information?
The information that allows each side sign to display the same message is sent trainline in the form of a digital signal from the controlling SCU (Sign Control Unit). The controlling SCU may be any of the SCUs on the tain depending on where the last command signal was entered.
Does one SCU control both car sets in a 8-car train, or are they seperate. I notice that the signs on the front and rear sections of R-46 trains are not always on the same "step" (they are out of sync with one another)
Also a question about "trainlines" in general: These are _control_ lines, not actual power lines to the various devices, right? With all of this information travelling through the couplers, how much maintenance is required to ensure positivfe connections for critical functions like train control?
I'll step in and answer your question, Dave. All of the trainlines
are control wires, not power carrying wires, with the exception of
the B1+ wire which puts all of the batteries on the train in parallel
(through limit resistors). From a digital logic standpoint, the
trainline signals have a fantastic noise margin: 0V logic "O" and
37.5V logic "1". However, some of these lines actually have to
supply a good deal of current. For example, the GS trainline
on GE cars is the return for a number of large contactors in
each group switch box. A couple of amps, worst case, per car, and
on a 10 car train, well......
The electric portions on the H2 couplers are fairly well-designed.
Each row has 13 pins and all of the pins on one side (left or right,
I forget which) are rigid while those on the other side push in
and rotate 1/4 turn, giving an automatic contact wipe action whenever
the coupling is made up. Nonetheless, moisture gets in there and
especially when trains stay coupled up for a long period of time,
resistance can build up. Now you see why the TA has fixated on
eliminating as many electric portions as possible.
I sometimes have to design systems that work in "harsh" emf areas, near to a 50kv rf igniter for short arc bulbs. Great lengths are taken in shielding for electronic systems, but they still take hits. If someone wants me to design them something "bulletproof" then I give them cam timers and relays. I've seen 5,6,12,24,48,120 volt relays and such, but never 37.5 --where did this odd voltage come from. Is it related to the 75v level in diesels that was discussed a while ago?
Railways historically used a 32 volt battery for control
and emergency lighting purposes. Where that voltage came
from I can't tell you. 37.5 volts is the nominal regulated
voltage of the motor-generator (or "static converter" on newer
cars). The batteries are float-charged from this bus voltage.
On a 4-car link there are 2 SCUs, one in each A car. Each SCU is supposed to control 5 discrete devices. They are the ODK - numbered 001 on the chain as well as the 4 side signs (numbered 002 - 005). Hence, the ODK controls one A car and one B car. In addition, the logic provides a 'master - slave' feature. Once a reverser is thrown on the train and the #1 or #2 wire is energized, this feature is activated. As such, once the reverser is thrown, the SCU where the route code is entered (let's say the C/R position), becomes the master SCU and the others become slaves. The only info sent over the trainline wires SS1 or SS2 is from the master SCU to the slaves. The master tells the slaves who is the master and what message to display. If the train operator subsequently changes the entry code, his SCU would take over control of the tain (peacefully) and the former master SCU would become a slave. Naturally a defective T/Line communication board in any SCU will affect normal operation.
So the master unit tells the slaves which route information to display, but the slaves can cycle through on their own time? "A hands off approach to management"
Sort of. The time each line of text is displayed is preset by the system. Therefore, a message in any car will be displayed for the same lingth of time as in any other car. However, the SCUs may not be displaying the same line of text at exactly the same instant. They can be out of sync by a few seconds due to the way the master/slave interface works.
That's excatly what I was wondering aboot. thanx.
In my previous post I used the term ODK where I should have used SCU. That correction is underlined. ODK is the keypad in the cab that the crews use to enter the route codes.
On a 4-car link there are 2 SCUs, one in each A car. Each SCU is supposed to control 5 discrete devices. They are the ODK - numbered 001 on the chain as well as the 4 side signs (numbered 002 - 005). Hence, the SCU controls one A car and one B car. In addition, the logic provides a 'master - slave' feature. Once a reverser is thrown on the train and the #1 or #2 wire is energized, this feature is activated. As such, once the reverser is thrown, the SCU where the route code is entered (let's say the C/R position), becomes the master SCU and the others become slaves. The only info sent over the trainline wires SS1 or SS2 is from the master SCU to the slaves. The master tells the slaves who is the master and what message to display. If the train operator subsequently changes the entry code, his SCU would take over control of the tain (peacefully) and the former master SCU would become a slave. Naturally a defective T/Line communication board in any SCU will affect normal operation.
I digress, constantly, so forgive me.
I often wonder about how the PA audio is passed through the coupler. I assume that the signal travels on a shielded cable of some sort. Is there special provision made at the joining point to carry the shielding over? (like a coax connector) or are the lines just broken out onto individual pins like eveything else. Is the cable shield just tied to the car frame? When I'm on R-40's and the EMF interference from the choppers* is deafening, I mull this over.
* I assume they use "choppers"
Altogether, I think I have much to much time on my hands.
On "classic" SMEE cars the PA audio signal is capacitively
coupled to the L1 (main lighting) trainline, with ground (chassis)
as the reference. Nothing special happens at the coupler. I
don't recall if the L1 trainline is shielded as it runs from junction
box to junction box.
On cars delivered with cab intercoms the PA audio signal is broken
out onto separate trainlines and I _believe_ it is balanced.
No cars have choppers. They have "static converters" which are
switchmode power supplies to convert 600VDC to 37.5 VDC. I
don't have a schematic handy and I don't recall exactly what
type of switchmode supply is used. The converters operate
at a frequency which is audible (Train Dude mentioned the
frequency once) and of course the ripple gets ALL OVER the B+
supply despite generous filtering.
I've used AC inverter motor drives that had a carrier frequency of 5kHz, and in bad-ground situations, there would be 5k screaming out of the audio systems. Well maybe not 'screaming' writer's embellishment. I guess it was the client that would do the screaming!
So all cars up to the R-68 use cam control and resistor grids?
I don't suppose there are any books that cover traction power in detail, are there?
All cars with the exception of R110, R142 and 10 modified R-38s
use conventional electromechanical control with "grid" resistors
and DC motors. The phrase "cam control" is a trademark of
Westinghouse (or whatever company they are now) even though it is
descriptive of both the WH system and the GE system. The latter
is called SCM (Static Cam Magnetic) control.
I am not aware of any books still in print that discuss conventional
traction power control systems. The TA has some internal training
documents.
Sorry Train Dude but your last statement is incorrect. When the HVAC is turned off, the entire sign turns off as well. If you indeed saw that happen, then that sign was defective. And as you well know, there are a whole lot of defective items in the subway.
You are correct. The 5V power supply for the signs was originally connected to the T/L relay. There were several cars that were modified for technical reasons, however and these cars do have 2 B+ sources for the side signs.
Thanks for your quick response!
Begs the obvious and non-obvious questions:
1) Why was the backlight tied into the H trainline instead of L1?
For that matter, why is there any trainline control of the
backlight?
2) Are SS1/SS2 the same trainlines that were once used for the
automatic mechanical side roll sign control?
I was not part of the engineering decisions that were made related to the R-46 overhaul. The decision to tie the side Signs to the trainline relay was made because in the case where the system locked up and had to be 're-booted', this seemed to be a convenient way for the operator to do it.
As for the SS1 & SS2 T/Line wires, I'm not sure if they are the same although I suspect so. Remember that the electric portions were changed from side mounted Walton to underslung NYAB during overhaul. The T/Line wires are likely the same though. By the time I started, the Identra System was not in use.
OK, thanks for the tech discussion. Even though it looks like
no one else is interested, several people have told me "offline"
that they like to read these little exchanges on light bulbs,
field shunts, etc., so we're doing a public service :)
And the non-tech angle behind this: when I see the signs go
dark, that tells me the crew has turned off the HVAC trainline.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but other than smoke conditions (not
the case here) the system is supposed to be left on, right?
I would assume that it is being turned off because one of the
crew is too cold.
Most of the time if the signs are off, so is the HVAC. However the SMB circuit-breaker can also turn off the side signs(and the sign "keyboard" in the cab) without having to touch the HVAC.
Usually,the crew will not activate the HVAC momentary unless ordered to because of a 'tunnel smoke condition'. Normally, the crew will turn off the #1 end blower in their car. Of course this drops out the BFC (blower fan contactor) and shuts down the entire #1 end AC (the hell with the customers?). There is a circuit breaker called the SMB which shuts off the display info. but only works on the individual car. If the SMB in the A car drops out, the B car will continue to display the last commanded message. In reality, the only way to turnoff the entire system is with the HVAC momentary except on some modified cars.
As for the tech subjects, I love discussing them over the inane rantings of our younger and/or more politically un-enlightened members. I wish more had something positive to add in this area. I find it more interesting, by far.
As for the tech subjects, I love discussing them over the inane rantings of our younger and/or more politically un-enlightened members. I wish more had something positive to add in this area. I find it more interesting, by far.
It's much appreciated on this end, too! I don't particularly care for ultimate proofs that two people can post messages while riding R-142/R-9 hybrids arguing over something else equally unimportant. Glad you decided to stay around.
Mark
Thank you, Train Dude, Jeff H., etc. Reading about the technical operation of the system for those who really know is by far the best feature of SubTalk, in my opinion. It makes railfanning a whole lot more interesting when you understand what's going on.
Amen!
The reason I turn off the #1 end A/C when I operate is so I won't get sick. Most of the A/C vents in the cabs have been vandalized by other T/O's and C/R's so the vents won't open or close properly. I cannot have direct contact with the A/C blowing directly on me for 90 minutes.
I understand the problem outlined by this Train Operator, but it's important to remember that the HVAC is there primarily for the comfort of the riders; crew comfort is secondary. If there's a problem with the HVAC in the cab, the Train Operator or the Conductor should report it so that Car Equipment can fix it. (And no, I'm not a Train Operator or a Conductor, but I'm friends with several and don't want to see any of them get sick.)
David
Car equipment(CED) does not like to fix things unless it is urgent such as broken glass, double door cutout, etc. HVAC problems in the cabs do not get fixed until inspection time. Ask your friends and they'll tell you the same.
As far as passenger comfort over the crew's, remember that passengers have 10 cars to choose from to ride in while a T/O only has one. To be blunt; If I have to choose between the comfort of the passengers and my health, I could give a rats ass about the passengers. If you were in my shoes, I'm sure your feelings would be likewise. I don't like to act like this but if CED were to fix things more often, there would be no need for any of this.
You mentioned earlier in this thread that "Most of the A/C vents in the
cabs have been vandalized by other T/O's and C/R's so the vents won't open or close properly." Since you infer that know who is committing these crimes, why don't you turn them in, assist in their prosecution, and ensure that they are incarcerated and no longer employed by the TA rather than continuing to vandalize their employer's property. Maybe then the TA will be able to hire honest people rather than crooks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know exactly who is doing the vandalism. All I know is that things don't work the way that they are supposed to. I've written down defects on the car defect sheet only to see that the problem remains MONTHS later. Things have gotten so bad with defects on the J line that the J/M/Z line superintendent has sent out a joint memo with the TWU (how often do you see that) asking that all employees fill out the car defect sheet when something is not working properly.The East New York barn does not repair anything unless it's ready to fall off. That's why ENYD is the busiest yard in the system when it comes to making swings. We always have to bury bad cars into the middle of the consist instead of CED fixing it.
I'm one of those guys who turns them back on when I find them off! I think the cabs are generally hot. Generally, the ceiling vents are of no help. On the R32's I have to keep the window open a crack and my cab door clamped open a bit for air circulation. I can't stand it when a passenger stands in the opening which blocks my cross ventilation. The R46, it's a shame. Vitrually 100% of the motormen, as any SubTalker knows, have to shoe slipper the cab door open. Don't know about the 44's. Have avoided taking one down the road for 15 years! R68/68A: the good a/c in the cab is the only good thing I can say about the cars. That uncomfortable motormans seat make my overall opinion of the cars unfavorable. A selfish motorman who turns off the HVAC is screwing his/her passengers. You just killed 50% of your cooling capacity, you are making the #2 end work harder and it may not be able to cool the car. These cars get hot even in the winter with all that body heat, the crowds and winter coats being worn. A passenger will get sick from a hot car, not a cold one! Yes. I turn them back on even in February! In the winter, particularly on the R40/42's on the J/L/M/Z, the cold air comes in thru the hinges and sides of the cab door. Have a roll of tape in you bag and use it in the cold spots so the passengers don't have to be hot underground in a crowded car.
The circulation in the R-46 is poor because there are no vents in the door to permit the cool air to circulate. Hence the need for shoe slippers. The R-68/68A doors have generous venting.
As for vandalism, several years ago we did catch a C/R with 216 horn buttons from R-46 consoles, in his locker
>>>As for vandalism, several years ago we did catch a C/R with 216 horn buttons from R-46 consoles, in his locker <<<
What dis he plan to do with them? Respond to an RFP and sell them back to the TA?
Peace,
ANDEE
He never did say. He was disciplined for his acts. As his punishment,he was 'returned to his pre-employment status.'
So he was sacked in other words.
Yes he was terminated but in fairness, that was back in 1993.
But, why on Earth was he swiping all those horn buttons for? 1 or 2, maybe, but 239?
That reminds me of the story of the foamite railfan who swiped a broken globe valve from a steam locomptive that was in the process of being restored. Strange.
I don't have that kind of insight into peoples' darker side. However, without a horn button on the operating car, the train would be removed from service due to an inoperative horn.
(These cars get hot even in the winter with all that body heat, the crowds and winter coats being worn. A passenger will get sick from a hot car, not a cold one!)
You've just hit on my worst problem with riding the subway. I get hot and uncomfortable pretty quickly. I avoided, hot crowded bars and parties in my youth. In the winter, when I go into a store even for a few mintues I take the coat off. So that heat is of no benefit for me. In a crowded car, it's a killer. It's only good for warming up the car to 55 degrees or so when it starts its run outside on a very cold day.
Heat in a NYCT subway car only comes on when the internal air is below 59 degrees. AC comes on above 71 degrees. between the two, you are on your own.
My father worked for NBC-TV in New York. He tells the story of how cold it was in the studios when they installed more efficient lighting that gave off less heat. He complained to maintenance about the cold, but they said that the A/C had to be kept on for the new computerized equipment.
One day he went up to look at this special fancy equimpent, and found that the crews in that room were so cold that they had covered the A/C openings with cardboard. He immedietly called maintenance, and shortly thereafter, the a/c was ducted into the eqipment racks that needed the cooling, and every one else was happy once again.
So I understand your suffering from over cooled (and or poluted inside air) and the problem with damaged equipment. Perhaps you could carry with you a cardboard or metal plate to block the offending air flow, but leave the a/c to the rest of the car.
Elias
Most of the time, I stuff newspaper into the vent which usually does the trick, but thats only on R44's and R46's. On the R32,38,40 and 42 equipment,the A/C seeps through the cracks on both sides of the cab door turning the cab into an icebox. I've tried using duct tape but if you have to open the door for any reason(passenger questions, supervisors, etc.) the tape is then ruined and I would not have time to re-apply the tape. The ONLY alternative is to turn off the #1 A/C.
I had a similar experience when I worked in our company's repair shop. It was air conditioned, but there was a small back room which was not. Our electronics tech worked there, and she was constantly complaining about being uncomfortably warm (never mind the fact she always wore a sweatshirt). She would crank up the A/C hoping it would alleviate things, but it didn't help, and left us freezing our tails off.
I went Hanging out with a Motorman from the 7 line today. The Train that came in after his, said 111th street corona. The Train came into main street on Track M, but the sign didn't say Main street Flushing, it said 111th street corona. Another inbound arriving Train came in displaying Willets pt Shea stdum. My Friend (the T/O) says they are all suffering from AM Disease
On the p.m. tour, if needed, a Willets Pt dropout will be sent to Main St.
...even saw this at 149-GC on the 2 line..
I don't recall seeing this before. The “Hot Railnews” section of
Railfan and Railroad quotes a Lincoln (Nebraska) Journal Star article of Aug 23 that says that Kawasaki, which has a plant in Lincoln that has built motorcycles, Jet-Skis, and other stuff since 1974, is building a new plant to open there in 2002 that will turn out 200 light rail cars/year.
for who? to my knowledge only SEPTIC uses kawasakis...
The article said that "Kawasaki has produced light-rail, commuter and passenger cars for New York, Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago". It wasn't just mentioning LRV's.
True, but it mentioned only LRV's for the Lincoln plant.
which brings me to my original point - is SEPTIC planning a major service expansion? 200 LRVs a year. I know the Semens plant in Sacramento can top 365 (the "one a day" mantra is something they brag about)
[...the Siemens plant in Sacramento can top 365 (the "one a day" mantra is something they brag about)]
The article referred to Kawasaki's 200 per year as "one a day". I guess they have 60 holidays, unless it was a typo.
Perhaps you read where the Roman Catholic heirarchy said that only Catholicism is the way to salvation and that others are off the mark and might not "make it". To my Jewish, Protestant, Muslim, and Buddhist colleagues on this site please accept my embarrassment and apologies for what my church has come out with. My wife is not Catholic and she will get into Heaven easier than I will. I hate it when one faith sounds off as they have all the answers and I know many of you are aware of what the Catholic Church said. It really bugs me. My daughter's boyfriend is Jewish and most of my friends are not Catholic. Religion is a personal thing and no one faith should claim to have the answers. We can learn from all. As a history teacher I know the meaning of religious freedom and choice.
It pains me this happened and I had to vent my wrath at what I consider to be prejudice and narrow minded thinking.
Why not go to another Board to post this material? What you say has nothing to do with what this Board is about. I'm an embarrassed railfan.
As important as the topic may be, I can't see the relevance of *that* kind of discussion to *this* message board. No need to start the 30 Years' War all over again . . . .
Perhaps you read where the Roman Catholic heirarchy said that only Catholicism is the way to salvation and that others are off the mark and might not "make it". To my Jewish, Protestant, Muslim, and Buddhist colleagues on this site please accept my embarrassment and apologies for what my church has come out with. My wife is not Catholic and she will get into Heaven easier than I will. I hate it when one faith sounds off as they have all the answers and I know many of you are aware of what the Catholic Church said. It really bugs me.
You have no need to apologize. Unless I'm very mistaken, just about every religion says that it's the only true one, and that all other religions are wrong. Catholicism is anything but unique in that regard.
As a Practicing Roman Catholic, let me say the following:
1. Rome is very conservative, and Cardinal Ratzinger is in lockstep with John Paul II. The Polish church is among the most conservative of all Roman Catholics, and that's where the Pope hails from.
2. God, in His infinate Wisdom and Mercy, has never spoken recently out loud as to who gets saved and who doesn't.
3. This is a Subway and Rail Transit Board. Discussion of Religion in any form is about as off-topic as you can get. Lets STOP this here and now!!!
Dan, you are right. I brought it up and am sorry I did. But it did upset my sense of fair play and I had to let some steam out. Back to riding the Sea Beach and other trains.
Considering that it has probably been a while since the Pope consulted you on church policy, I think that your feelings of guilt and embarrassement were misplaced. In any event, if you can't vent at your friends once in a while, . . .
i was waiting at 14th street on the east side irt around 11:35 this morning, waiting for 7211-7220 to come in... as it approached the station, i noticed a rather large rat running for cover on the roadbed... what was unusual about the rat was that it had a flashing message board attached to its body that displayed the following message: hey paul...do not get on this train... wait for the next train
i did what the flashing message said... as soon as the new train pulled out, another 5 car set of r-142's pulled in, tooting its horn indicating that it wasn't going to stop... as it got closer, i noticed that officer joe bolton was riding in the cab with the motorman... when he spotted me, he instructed the motorman to stop and pick me up... i got in and noticed that i was in car 7251...
i asked officer joe: "what was going on?"
officer joe asked me: " have you done all your homework for monday?"
i answered: " sure, officer joe, i always do my homework first, so i'll have the rest of the weekend free."
officer joe said: " good going paul... well, after the recent trouble with the doors and brakes on the new cars, we decided to rig up a car that mixes the good old technology with the new technology... see if you can tell what we did...then i want you to go tell all the boys and girls on subtalk what you heard today...meanwhile, i've got to get ready for the next commercial break...
blended technology
heypaul......
My SOUNDCARD is DEAD, and I haven't bothered to replace it yet.
Maybe if you shout loud enough, we will be able to hear it in NORTH DAKOTA!
Elias
for elias and others with sound card impaired computers.... i tried mixing the sounds of an r1/9 coming to a stop and the sounds of its doors opening with the new cars automated station announcements... it really didn't come out that great, but it was fun and a challenge trying to do it...
I'm sorry I couldn't hear it either.
That's excellent, it's only marred by the stupid Pagetalk ad at the end.
Yahoo has a service that creates wavs and it has no ads, except the problem is that it's long distance.
thanks for the compliment about the blending of the r9 sound with the r-142 sound... i really didn't have the patience to try to find an r9 station stop that matched the r-142 annoucements... i was mixing the sounds in a very crude way... i put the tapes into 2 separate walkmans, and took the electrical audio outputs and fed each into one input of a boom box cassette recorder... i got a little appreciation for how much work it takes to mix and edit tape... the pagetalk blurb is a drag, but they do provide a free service, so i guess i owe them one...
09/08/2000
I've received E-mails as well as requests in reference to purchasing the NYC Subways Calendar by mail. For those of you who are repeat mail order customers, you may remember that in the beginning postcards were mailed to announce a new calendar. Well at 20 cents a pop plus the cost of the full color postcard, it was decided to drop the postcard idea and tape full page reminders in the October window as a means of ordering the new edition and saving some money.
Since then, I started a new tradition of enclosing a free postcard with every calendar purchased for those of you who are collectors. My idea of saying thanks and enclosing a free (yes free) keep sake. The postcard since the beginning always featured the same image as on the cover minus the calendar "title". I received word that from the manufacturer that the postcards will go to press on Sept.15th. I apologize for running late on this.
So, if any of you out there wish to order a copy, please use my e-mail and I'll e-mail you back instructions. Yes, the postcard is the same image as the front cover....R-142A's on the Dyre test track surrounded by clean snow! I'll mail you a postcard in an envelope when they become available. The NYC Transit Museum will also carry these postcards, but we're looking at October. Two new releases will accompany the R-142A postcard. Available at the museum only.
Once again, please use my e-mail only for instructions as well as questions about this. We need to conserve space on this board for the ongoing World War III between the west and east coast......just kidding!
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk" Mangahas
Every once in a while someone posts about the original movie King Kong and its scenes of the Avenue of the Americas Sixth Av El. So I figure I should mention its on tonight at 10:30PM (2230 hours) on the AMC (American Movie Classics) channel on cable. (Channel 43 on Royal Long Island and NYC if I'm not mistaken
I still say the 1976 version was better with King Kong bashing that el in Queens. Everything was better in the 70's.
I just saw King Kong, 1933 version, tonight on TV. He killed a T-Rex, a giant bird, a giant snake, then fell off the Empire State Building. I felt sorry for the beast. Why couldn't they just leave the beast alone.
[Why couldn't they just leave the beast alone.]
Because he was different. A perverse element of human nature is to punish those who are different.
I've seen King Kong more than any other movie - must be up to 200 times now (including tonight!) Channel 9 used to run it several times a year back in the '50's and '60's on Million Dollar Movie, when it would be on every day for a week. I still love those El shots.
Are New Yorkers with the recalled Firestone tires on their cars leaving their cars at home and flocking to the subways for transportaion?
If the outlook is as grim as it is shown on TV the subways should be getting a lot of new riders.
Are New Yorkers with the recalled Firestone tires on their cars leaving their cars at home and flocking to the subways for transportaion?
If the outlook is as grim as it is shown on TV the subways should be getting a lot of new riders.
I would suspect that any increased ridership is very modest. While I don't know what the official registration figures are like, it's my impression that Explorers aren't terribly popular in NYC. They're a bit bulky when it comes to finding on-street parking spaces, many parking garages charge extra for SUV's, and I would imagine that insurance rates would be exhorbitant. Besides, there's just something suburban-ish about Explorers and other SUV's.
If the tire fiasco has produced any ridership increases, it's probably been on commuter trains, as suburbanites heading into the city decide against driving.
BTW - my Rodeo has the same size tire as those involved in this recall. Although they're not the same style, I have become paranoid about tire damage - if one has to be replaced, it won't be fun trying to find one!
I remember a SUV thread some months ago from which I got the impression they were popular in the city. It's been so many years since I have been up there that I don't know what residents are driving.
There are people here in Penna that are panicing just because the tires on their vehicles are Firestone. It doesn't seem to matter to them that they have different style and size tires. They just see the name Firestone, and feel they they have to get rid of them.
It is a sad situation because Firestone for many, many years was a very popular and high quality tire, and I imagine that this crisis will result in the name's demise!
FYI, Firestone was an American company that in the 70's released a batch of 14 million defective tires and then had to recall them. This bankrupted Firestone and they were bought by the evil Japanesse company Bridgestone. The problem then as now was a tred seperation. Air would bubble up in between the layers and caused blowouts or poor handling. My grandad's 1974 Ford LTC had these and he never heeded the recal. We borrowed the car on the way down to North Carolina and a bubble formed in the tred causing the tire to buonce up and down. After ppl in other cars started to point at us we pulled over and got a new tire. Later we replaced the set, but forgot about the spare which blew out while my mom was driving on the way to work (no accident though)
Firestone has had major quality problems with its tires for years, as has its current parent Bridgestone. Bead failure problems on bias ply tires in the early '70s (I had that problem - and switched permanently to Michelins), the infamous Firestone 500 radials of the mid 1970s (tread separation), the problems with their replacement 721 series around 1980 (sidewall failure), Bridgestone's tread failure problems in several series of tires around 1988-89 (chunks of tread rubber would crack off, leading to failure), not to mention the pre-sale recall of Bridgestone's Potenza high-performance tire (branded with a 140+ mph speed rating after it had failed certification tests for 90 mph) back around 1992 or so (at least those tires never made it to the public). I'm not a lawyer, but on the surface it seems to me that they are both criminally and civilly liable for their actions this time around; assuming that to be the case, they should be put out of business.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a time that Firestone had one of the best reputations in the tire industry. My dad bought a brand new 1931 Chevrolet and drove it in Brooklyn as the family car until 1954 (23 years). He would not even consider using anything but Firestone tires. Most people put their cars in storage during WWII and rode the trains and trolleys. After the war the most popular tire size was 600-16, and we really had to shop around to find our tire size which was 475-500-19. When we found the right tire, it had better be Firestone or he would not buy it.
I bought my first car in 1958 (a used 56 Chevy 2-door hardtop, and yes, I wish I had it back). The tires were not too good, so naturally I was expected to go out and buy a brand new set of Firestones. Being a good son, I did just that; they served me well, and were still on the car when I traded it.
>>> I bought my first car in 1958 (a used 56 Chevy 2-door hardtop, and yes, I wish I had it back). The tires were not too good, so naturally I was expected to go out and buy a brand new set of Firestones <<<
Karl;
It is amazing how the passage of time makes the "good old days" seem so much better than they were. In the ‘50s Firestone and all the other American tire manufacturers were making bias ply tires, and you really felt lucky if you got 20,000 miles of tire life. In 1955, U. S. Royal came out with a particularly bad run of tires, which drove the company to the edge of bankruptcy and resulted in a name change to Uniroyal. We had a family 1955 Chevrolet with U. S. Royal tires as original equipment. One day in 1956 I came out of the house to find a flat tire. I changed to the spare and drove to a service station about two blocks away to get the tire fixed. While sitting in the service station, the other three tires went flat. No punctures, just the sidewalls suddenly leaking.
Just as the American car manufacturers did not take the invasion of Volkswagens and other small foreign cars seriously, and had the attitude that Americans would buy whatever they provided, the tire manufacturers were late to convert to radial tires from bias ply tires, and when they did convert they were not as good at making the radial tires as the foreign competition because of lack of R & D and had to play catch up. Pretty soon consumers began to look to the foreign brands whenever they wanted quality tires.
Tom
Sadly the auto manufacturers themselves went thru the same thing. My feelings were that quality started to slip in the late '50's and by the 70's the Big Three should have been ashamed to put their name on most of their products. Ioccoca saved Chyrsler [with US gov't loans] but basically it was the Jap car builders that forced the US firms to get off their rears and go back to quality or else die. And it wasn't because the Jap. cars were smaller, US builders offered them in the early 60's and they were never that popular..after all gas was "cheap" and big was part of being American. Nowadays I have as much faith in American cars as I did in the 50's, thanks to competition, and an offer of a vehicle that wasn't meant to fall apart forced American quality to return.
US builders offered them in the early 60's and they were never that popular..after all gas was "cheap" and big was part of being American.
It seems with that 6 upside-down, things repeated themselves.
question about tires remember that paris derailment or tire blowout??
the subway train flipped on its side !! why did this this happen??
The Paris derailment of 2 weeks ago occurred on line 13 (I believe) which is a steel wheeled line
Peace,
ANDEE
[re competition from Japanese cars]
What's really funny is the way that national barriers seem to have blurred in the auto industry. Some GM and Ford cars are actually built in Canada or Mexico yet, in the industry's peculiar logic, are considered American. On the other hand, a significant percentage of the foreign nameplate cars are now built at US assembly plants. And the component parts come from just about everywhere.
My Isuzu Rodeo is a real mongrel when it comes to its origins. Isuzu is a Japanese company, in which GM has a large ownership stake. The Rodeo is built at a plant in Lafayette, Indiana which is a joint venture between Isuzu (and hence GM) and Subaru. Among the vehicles built at the plant is the Honda Passport, a rebaged Rodeo. As a result, you have four companies - Isuzu, GM, Subaru and Honda - involved in a single plant.
Not actually the industry's logic, but Congress. The industrialization of North America has long considered anything built in the US or Canada as 'American Made' Oddly, Canada does not. There was a law passed a few years ago that resulted in parts content labeling of automobiles, with final assembly point, major components listed (engine/transmission) and a percentage of parts from other contries listed as well. In this age of Cadillacs being built in Germany, Nissans in Tennesee, Fords and Dodges in Mexico, Pontiacs in Korea (the late early 90's 'LeMans') and Chevrolets in Japan, the automotive industry is truly a world industry, and even the car magazines are recognizing it, eliminating import catagories for 'car of the year' and such. Hell, Ford practically owns Mazda, and likewise for Daimler/Chysler and Mitsubishi (in which Chrysler had a share well before their merger with Daimler-Benz)
-Hank
Maybe 3 or 4 years ago Trains Magazine had an article which included the notation of every train passing through a particular spot in Kansas during a 24 hour period. One of them was the daily train of Japanese steel destined for a Chrysler plant in Ohio.
I think that would be the Diamond-Star plant, which produced both the Plymoth Laser and Misubishi Eclipse. It was a badge-engineering job, same car, same mechanicals, slightly different bodywork. Same as GM has been doing for decades with Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac.
-Hank
Dude, 70's cars rock. I love 70's cars. We put 280,000 miles on our 1974 Ford LTD before we disided to get a new car and our 72 mustang went 350K before it fell appart. Today's cars get like 100k then you send them down to the plactics place to be recycled. Don't you miss not having to worry about emmissions, a full sized spare, being able to power up hills, the ability to fix your car yourself, no stupid computers, STEEL, the roomyness of a pullman on the road, etc. The old TV show Hawaii Five-0 has monster 70's cars galore. If stupid Carter has gotten his act together to support the Shah gas could still be at 75 cents a gallon.
[70's cars] Don't you miss not having to worry about emmissions, a full sized spare, being able to power up hills, the ability to fix your car yourself, no stupid computers, STEEL, the roomyness of a pullman on the road, etc.
Can't do much about emissions, repairs and computers, but if you want full-sized spares, powerful motors, strong steel construction and roominess, there's a useful if politically incorrect solution - get a SUV.
The spirt of the 70's lives strong in their breed.
I can't believe anyone would say they preferred the cars of the 1970s.
I remeber the winter of 1994, one of the coldest of the century. My Plymouth Horizon (the cheapest car then on the market) with 90,000 miles was left buried under snow drifts more more than a month. I got in, and it started right up, and its front wheel drive allowed me to jump over a one foot high plowed snow/icebank. A 1970s car would needed a tow.
Saturn has a full size spare.
Saturn's full-sized tires are donuts for OTHER cars. I looked at one recently with the thought of buying one. Too many things were extras, such as A/C and ABS (Both of which I considered must-haves)
-Hank
You got lucky with the snow. I have talked w/ many a tow-truck driver who regailed me with stories of how little front wheel drive cars would get stuck in the snow drifts the plow trucks leave accross side streets. The front wheels would get stuck in the snow and they didn't have enough power to get through. Old rear wheel drive cars like our LTD could just blast right through the drife w/ the wheels providing traction on the pre-drift road. BTW there is a simple upgrade that can make RWD just as good as FrWD (if you believe all the hoop-la). They are called tungston studded snow tires and its a black eye on our great country that they are illegal in most places. I found a pair in a storage room here at school and I was going to steal them, but someone else got to them first. Nothing said "traction" more than when concrete highways would get conastoga ruts ridden into them. (Ex. Rt 22 in Allentown PA).
[BTW there is a simple upgrade that can make RWD just as
good as FrWD]
Drive in reverse.
LOL, I remember when a friend's friend got stuck in the snow w/ her FrWD car because she pulled into the snowy driveway and it ice-i-fyed over night. She had to back out with the resulting lack of traction.
Oregon has got to have the worst drivers when it comes to driving in the snow.....1/16 th of an inch and the schools get closed....
Looks like they're tied with Baltimore, which panics when flurries fall fro more than 15 minutes. People bail out of offices early, the roads are choked, and the schools close early in the counties.
The TV stations send reporters to any salt depot in the area for standups.
This is a metro area where the road crews attack snow like it's the Viet Cong. Salt is liberally spread on major routes. After it's all over there are little piles of salt all over the place. Car washes do gangbusters.
Major storms shut the place down for 2 or 3 days. The bus system folds up, but the Subway and Light Rail keep right on going.
Denver is similar. CDOT hits the panic button whenever it starts snowing and starts dumping gravel everywhere. Cracked windshields are commonplace out here; my Jeep is on its fifth windshield, and it's cracked. I've given up trying to replace it. People out here find it difficult to drive in the rain, let alone snow.
At least in CO they have good reason to overreact.
-Hank
Haven't noticed much of it in NoDak but Montana was the land of cracked or broken windshields. But I only lost 2 in 22 years there.
Before they paved the road by our house in North Carolina (eight or nine years ago now) we would average one broken windshield every six months (at the time we had three cars). Since they paved it we've only had one break, and that was the result of debris falling from an overpass under construction on I-95 between Petersburg and Richmond.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will say this much: they've gone easy on the gravel dumping on I-25 during the last few winters, opting instead for magnesium chloride. A few years ago, we experienced a weather pattern in which we'd get a few inches of snow, and CDOT would dump a few million tons of gravel. A week or so later, this scenario would repeat itself. This went on all winter long, it seemed. Then a comment was made that Denver's "brown cloud" was noticeably worse. Well, duh....
I will say this much: they've gone easy on the gravel dumping on I-25 during the last few winters, opting instead for magnesium chloride. A few years ago, we experienced a weather pattern in which we'd get a few inches of snow, and CDOT would dump a few million tons of gravel. A week or so later, this scenario would repeat itself. This went on all winter long, it seemed. Then a comment was made that Denver's "brown cloud" was noticeably worse. Well, duh....
Then there was Jasper McLevy, mayor of Bridgeport, Connecticut during the 1930's. He served as a Socialist, not because he had any interest in Socialist ideas, but solely because that had been the only party without a preselected nominee.
Anyway, McLevy became famous for imposing extreme fiscal discipline on a formerly spendthrift city government, slashing taxes and spending with a meat-ax approach.* But then, after a heavy snowstorm, there was no money in the budget to plow the streets. People asked McLevy to free up some funds on an emergency basis. His reply?
God put the snow here, and God can take it away.
* = I wonder if some clone-able DNA could be extracted from his remains ...
Believe it or not, Baltimore had no city snow removal plan until 1959!
The transit company had to clear the tracks (that's why they all had dozens of sweepers and plows) and when they did, the autos all drove on the streetcar tracks, which delayed service.
In February, 1958, Baltimore was hit by a surprise 28 inch snowstorm, which was accompanied by 25 to 45 MPH winds - a full fledged blizzard.
The transit company brought out the sweepers on the two remaining streetcar lines (BTC was an NCL property, and been killing streetcar lines since 1947), but it was a loosing battle. The city did very little plowing and only on selected main streets. By Sunday afternoon, not a transit vehicle turned a wheel. Sweepers were derailed, PCC's were blocked in snowdrifts up to the windshields.
The City belatedly realized that while they cooperated with NCL to rid the city of those old-fashioned streeetcars, they had also destroyed the snow removal system, so by Winter 1959 they had a comprehensive snow plan for Baltimore City.
(He served as a Socialist, not because he had any interest in Socialist ideas, but solely because that had been the only party without a preselected nominee. Anyway, McLevy became famous for imposing extreme fiscal discipline on a formerly spendthrift city government, slashing taxes and spending with a meat-ax approach.)
Sounds socialistic to me. He probably cut the parts of the budget that provided no benefits to society. Here in New York we run a capitalist government: powerful interests are in it for the profit.
Denver didn't have much of an organized snow removal system until the infamous Blizzard of '82, when we got almost two feet of snow on Christmas Eve. It also cost Mayor Bill McNichols his job. Instead of clearing city streets, many of the snowplows were sent to the now-demolished sports arena which bore his name to clear the parking lot. When it was pointed out that these plows should have been clearing the streets, ol' Mayor Bill replied, "Well, if I had been able to get there, I would have told them to do so." To which an editorial replied, well, Mr. Mayor, there is such a thing as a telephone. He was voted out of office shortly after that.
Then, a year later, we got about 18 inches of snow on Thanksgiving weekend. The new mayor, Federico Pena, came up with the brilliant idea of packing the snow down on side streets using the city's garbage trucks. He figured the snow would melt quicker if it was compacted. Usually, this does in fact happen out here; after a snowstorm, it warms up and in a few days, most of the snow is gone. This time, however, it blew up in his face - a few weeks later, we had a stretch of 110 consecutive hours of subzero temperatures, and that compacted snow froze solid. Side streets were rutted for months.
Needless to say, snow removal is a political hot potato in Denver. It hasn't stopped light rail yet, though. The buses may be stuck in traffic, but the trains keep rolling along.
snow removal is a political hot potato in Denver
Talk about a mixed metaphor :-)
Also.....people leaving there stuck carsm on ramps......
oregon uses sand it's gritty and the idiots drive fast kick it up and you can get pitted windods,at least the cars bottoms dont rust out from sand like salt.
As far as snow is concerned, I wouldn't give you a wooden nickel for a rear-wheel car. You need a FWD or AWD to do you any good. Another
plus is Traction Control which my 2000 Windstar has. My other car,
a 5-speed '95 Neon, has the nickname "snowcat". It really does well
even though it is low to the ground. My business is moving to 3 miles
from my home , so it shouldn't be too bad. The only half decent RWD
car I had was my 71 Chevy Caprice w/ positraction. I have to admit it
got my out of a few snow jams at times.
Chuck Greene
The reality is that about the only things that were better 30 or 35 years ago are the family and the subway.
Both of those were worse 25 years ago than they are today.
Well, my car is RWD and does run excellent in snow, and IMO, it is also my favorite; a 1972 Volkswagen Beetle.
Please. Gas would not be 75c a gallon now in your wildest dreams. In fact, if the auto industry had kept up it's 70's logic, it would have long ago ceased to exist.
There is much to be said for emissions controls and computerized engine management (which go together, really) in that a car purchased today emits over 99% less noxious gases and particulate manner as a car built in 1980. And the removal of leaded fuel from the market also was a wonder, considering its wonderful environmental side effects.
I don't miss smog, lead-contaminated soil, or 4.5MPG cars.
Oh, if you shop around, you can get what you want. My Sunfire has no trouble with hills, and of what you describe, the only thing htat fits is the lack of a full-size spare. And BTW, that mini-spare started in the 70s and was a Firestone invention. In anycase, tires dont' go flat as much as they used to, since in most cases, they are built better, and tested better. You really need to hit something hard to kill it. And within 5 years or so, run-flat tires will eliminat the need for a spare entirely.
-Hank
[re 70's cars vs. today's]
Cars in general are more reliable today even with all their computerized stuff. While things sometimes do go wrong with them, for the most part the problems don't result in immediate disablement. And today's warranties are much better. I can remember when the standard warranty was 12 months/12,000 miles. Most everything is better than that today; my Rodeo's warranty is 36 months/36,000 miles, with powertrain coverage for 10 years/120,000 miles.
[While things sometimes do go wrong with them,
for the most part the problems don't result in immediate disablement.]
Au contraire, in my case. My 91 Pontiac Grand Prix (purchased Aug 1999 with 107k miles) wouldn't start, although the starter turned. The crankshaft rotation sensor had broken, so the computer thought the engine was not turning and refused to provide a spark. That's the only problem I've had so far, now with 131k miles and counting.
My previous car was an 85 Olds Cutlass with an underpowered 4 that I bought for $1000 with 103k miles. I had it for 6.5 years and got rid of it when the AC blew and the cost of replacing the AC was more than the value of the car. I was in a carpool and Aug 99 was very hot, so I needed AC. The engine still ran like a charm with 230k on it.
There shoud be Federal Requirements that all cars should be able to function even with a total computer failure. Same goes for aircraft. I am an ardent believer that everything should have an emergency manual backup system. I wouldn't mind if cars came with a crank so that you wouldn't need a battery. I mean with as much automation that goes into subways, all ATO lines have manual controls and signals at the interlockings in case of computer failure. If you think about it, computers and electronics can't be fixed, only replaced and this is a dangerous weakness.
Not true. Replacing electronic componants is much better than repairing them (and they can be reaired if you know what you're doing) Generally, electronics are so small that replacement is the only option. You also don't tun the risk of having an additional failure in a 10-y-o computer. Why repair a componant when it's more efficient to replace the part?
-Hank
I know, that's the problem. I don't have a beef w/ the efficiency, but if I'm on the road and my computer dies I proabaly won't have that part with me. It has to be ordered and shipped and that does me no good in the middle of nowhere. If something is fixable you can get out your pliers and restore your car to some working condition so that it can get to the nearest town. If the end of the world comes these replacement electronics parts will be harder to get than gasoline. I want to be covered for all possible outcomes.
If the end of the world comes these replacement electronics parts will be harder to get than gasoline. I want to be covered for all possible outcomes.
If the end of the world does come, we probably won't really care about finding electronic parts, or gasoline for that matter.
My 88 Jeep, bought brand new, is still rolling right along, in the spirit of the R-32s, with 403,000 miles. The original 4.0-liter engine is still oil-tight, and has never been touched internally.
Congratulations. My Cutlass' underpowered 4 didn't burn any oil, either. I drove it 5k to 6k miles (mostly highway: 127k miles [from 103k to 230k] in 6.5 years) between oil changes and never needed to add a drop. And the high-powered V6 in my '91 Grand Prix doesn't burn oil,either. I'm getting 28 mpg, a darn sight better than the 11 mpg I got with my '73 Cadillac.
Hey I just realized that a slow oil leak makes oil changes un-necessary. I had always wondered why we didn't change the oil on out 70's cars. Well we didn't need to, we'd just add more and the old would get burned. The power steering fluid on the other hand would just suppliment our driveway coat.
Well we didn't need to, we'd just add more and the old would get
burned.
Au contraire. What was getting burned was the cleaner (and therefore lighter) oil. The dirty old stuff was still there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So I suppose you never replaced your overly-clogged oil filter either? Mad. I'd have loved to see the sludge that car was using as lubricant.
Oh, the new oil burned off first.
-Hank
Well I remember as a kid my dad would change the oil from time to time. They say you should do it every 5k, well for a car w/ 350k (most in the later 1/2 of its life) that means 70 oil changes and I never saw anything close to that. The car went into the Russ the mechanic every 2-6 months and I believe that he changed the oil when necessary, but after 1990 we never did it at home any more. Same went for the LTD. We put 200k on it in 6 years. Again I saw nothing near 40 oil changes. Of course 70's cars didn't need clean oil.
Of course 70's cars didn't need clean oil.
Sure they did. I'll cite one example - not a scientific study, by any means, but an example I am familiar with. My parents owned two 1955 Dodge sedans, one of which they purchased new and one of which was purchased new by my grandfather. Both of these cars received regular maintenance, including regular oil changes, and both were driven over 125,000 miles - this at a time when 70-80,000 miles meant that most cars were ready for the junkyard. Our neighbors owned a similar 1956 Dodge sedan (same motor, transmission, etc.) but did essentially no maintenance. By the time it went to the junkyard at about 60,000 miles you could see it coming for miles from the cloud of smoke it trailed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You'll be pleased to know that I change the oil on my Saturn every 2,500 miles, most of which are on the highway. That's four months of driving for a subway rider. Thanks to the MTA, my car ought to last 20 years.
I got hit by a Saturn this morning on the Belt. No one was hurt, nor was my car. Who was the genius who put a gas station in the middle of the parkway, with short acceleration lanes and left-lane entrences and exits?
-Hank
Hank - glad to hear you're alright.
As for who pushed for a design of a gas station in the middle of the parkway with short exit and acceleration lanes - I think it was Robert Moses.
That's a bad design for sure. It's stayed that way for maybe 60 years because nobody figured out yet that it needs to be changed due to modern highway speed.
Robert Moses put it there, back in the days when cars were fewer and speeds were lower. By putting it in the middle, he would only have to build one station instead of two.
Glad you are ok.
Elias
(Robert Moses put it there, back in the days when cars were fewer and speeds were lower. By putting it in the middle, he would only have to build one station instead of two.)
It's a "problem" with all all the parkways. They were designed for recreational driving on a Sunday afternoon. To the extent we are doing anything transportation-wise, it is spending big bucks to straigthen out the curves and turn the parkways into auto-only expressways. This has been going on on the Hutch, the Northern State, and the Taconic.
Now if they'd only apply that same logic to approach to the Montigue Street tunnel.
The parkways are outdoors, not encased in earth and below a sea of utilities and foundations.
Moses' idea of gas stations in the middle of the parkway was also aped by the State of Maryland on the JFK (I-95) expressway, and on current or former tollways in Kentucky and Oklahoma. Unlike Moses' roads, built in the 1920s and 30s, those highways were built in the 1950s and 60s, when high-speed driving was the norm, so the engineers there have no excuse for their stupidity.
Moses' idea of gas stations in the middle of the parkway was also aped by the State of Maryland on the JFK (I-95) expressway, and on current or former tollways in Kentucky and Oklahoma. Unlike Moses' roads, built in the 1920s and 30s, those highways were built in the 1950s and 60s, when high-speed driving was the norm, so the engineers there have no excuse for their stupidity.
The center-median rest areas on I-95 in Maryland have long entry and exit lanes, so they don't present the sort of safety hazard as the gas station on the Belt does.
I looked good and hard at my rear end today. I found some scratches in the license plate area, that was it. My plate is recessed in my bumper, and the one on the front of the Saturn is on a protruding mount. There's a bit of black plastic on my previously white Mets license plate frame. There's a line of dirt, slightly curved, running across about 3/4 of the bumper (nothing on the edges). I swear, this guy must have been PERFECTLY behind me, as it's my belief that the license plates, um, 'mated'. There's no other damage at all.
I also discovered that my Bbrother was also in an accident yesterday. While waiting to make a left turn (and signaling!) some idiot crossed the double-yellow line and sideswiped him, ripping off the bumber of my Mother's old car. Some string of luck my family's running into. (see my patricide message)
-Hank
I thought you were starting a somewhat kinky post there for a minute. :)
I can remember when the standard warranty was 12 months/12,000 miles.
I remember the 5/50 warranty on our '63 Dodge. The shorter warrantees came later.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, this has nothing to do with heavy metal music. To bring this back to a rail topic, the 1950-ish attitude that only big-ass steel monster (that which travels on land yet has fins MUST be a monster) vehicles are safe is the basis for absurdly harsh rules like the FRA's 800,000lbs (IIRC) buff strength requirement for passenger rail cars that has effectively prohibited Amtrak and the commuter railways from using off-the-shelf European trains and came perilously close to killing off the existing Talgos that constitute the Cascades service out Northwest.
Are European trains superior? I have no idea. But the point is that they are being built in large numbers because Europe has a real passenger rail network. If Amtrak or the commuter rail authorities could buy production models of trains from the European companies -- with necessary modifications like the couplers, of course -- it could save a lot of money compared to ordering train cars from scratch. (Of course, that's assuming Amtrak orders cars for service anywhere outside the Northeast and California anytime soon.)
Those Euorpian trains are just plain dangerous. I've paid close attention to the recent accidents at Padington and at Southall and when Euro trains crash they disintegrate killing 30-50 people at a time, even at moderate speeds. Amtrak's worst crash killed 45 and that was because a car went into a canal and everyone drowned. Even the Chase MD wreck with a c. 150 mph collision only killed 25 people due to the stregnth of the Amfleet Budd cars.The reason those Europian designs are so cheap is because they are shit. Heavy duty American designs last longer, are safer and can be rebuilt after accidents. Amtrak will save money in the long run.
But the European trains are still safer than driving, in whatever kind of motor vehicle. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm sure to the marrow of my bones that the deaths on the rails for a year are exceeded by the road deaths for a week. And if the price of mass-produced European rail cars versus custom-ordered American rail cars is the difference between Amtrak being able to buy lots more cars or only a few -- or between being able or not able to buy cars at all -- then the higher safety standards result in MORE deaths because the rail alternative wasn't available and people drove instead.
I find it interesting that with...I think.. one fourth the federal requirement, for what few serious crashes there are on urban/commuter rail transit that there are rarely any fatalities. [I should omit commuter rail, they are "federal"] Admittedly urban transit trains don't run as fast and don';t share track with super-heavy locomotives and freight trains but when there is a major rail transit accident at least in the USA fatalities are few or rare.
NYCT, CTA etc are probably the safest transport of any form rail, rubber, air, or ship anywhere in the world considering numbers.[But I have to add the Staten Island ferry probably has the safest record of all.]
Nope, not the ferry. There have been at least 2 deaths in the past ten years on the ferry that I am aware of (one a child who stuck his head out a window at the wrong moment) and of course the explosion of the Westfield.
As for rail deaths, if you look at the accident causes (and you can see the reports somewhere deep within the DOT web site) the majority of them are caused by motorists. Unfortunately, the two worst accidents in Amtrak history were caused by a stoned engineer who did not work for Amtrak, and a barge.
-Hank
I don't feel safe on the SI Ferry. It is not a contained environment like a train. There are places where you could fall off, or someone could push you off.
It should be completely sealed and air conditioned, with only CLOSED windows to look through.
It's amazing there hasn't been more deaths and personal or property losses on the S.I. Ferry.
You're likely the only person in the entire city who feels this way. It is indeed a contained environment. There's no place for a criminal to run or hide. It should be air conditioned (the new boats will be) but 'sealed' is something that was universally hated when the Barberi class boats were concieved. No outside deck space was the primary complaint about them. The boats are not just a mode of transportation, but a tourist attraction as well, with its view of the harbor, the statue, Ellis and Governor's Islands, and even the NJ and Brooklyn shores.
-Hank
Not only that but a nice way to keep cool and enjoy a ride on the water in summer, so I think sealing things up is a detriment. The nicest boats for that purpose have been gone many years.
Right you are on Amtrak: I've wondered why fate has dealt so many rotten curves at Amtrak; one passenger train a day on many routes and THAT's the one that gets nailed amidst dozens of freights. Admittedly nobody wants a wreck but the loss of life so much greater on passenger trains. Sad.
The explosion of the Westfield on the Staten Island Ferry was over 100 years ago; I'll add there was a freak accident where a turn caused one of the 1905 boats to dip under water on one side and I believe 5 passengers on the maimn deck died, swept away. The situation you mentioned was not due to operations, it was a passenger error. Nothing is prfect but I still think the record is good. By the way they never could duplicate the inundation episode and the ship returned to service with never another such problem.
{NYCT, CTA etc are probably the safest transport of any form rail, rubber, air, or ship anywhere in the world considering numbers.[But I have to add the Staten Island ferry probably has the safest record of all.]}
Don't forget Qantas Airways!
The new FRA requirements are IMHO the sorry excuse for a real response to the Silver Spring Md wreck on CSX in Feb '96. See NTSB RAR 9702 downloadable from their site for all the details. The short version is that a push-pullcab coach ran into F40's--eight died. The backgound however is that there was apparently either a failed signal, or a misread signal, or a disobeyed signal. The NTSB report could not decide which but they did discover that during the signal "upgrade" several years previously there was no FRA or FTA design oversight even though the project was FTA funded. The net result was that all the feds did was individually qualify the various signal parts but made no analysis of locations with respect to station stops, or any other system issues. In the event the train in question made a station stop after passing the last block signal before the interlocking. The engineer accelerated as if to indicate that when he had passed the last signal before the station it showed "clear" although CSX says it should have displayed "approach". The CSX policy of calling signals on the radio cannot be verified for that day as no tape exists. He paid with his life. In my view the buffing strength was the least of the problems, but it was what the FRA chose to address as an industrywide order for new equipment. Note that this does nothing for current cars!
"Note that this does nothing for current cars!"
But until literally last week, FRA was considering NOT grandfathering the existing Talgo trainsets -- the sole cars in Amtrak's successful Cascades service. They ultimately decided to let the existing Talgos remain in operation, but it was a real scare for a while there.
Right you are. However my comments were directed more at the policy per se than the argument over the Talgos. The new FRA rules do nothing to strengthen existing cars--for instance the Metra MU's. The classic problem is perhaps illustrated by remembering the awful wreck near 23rd st when a set of Metra MU's backed up after overshooting the platform. They were hit by a train of the 1926-7 standards which shredded the car. My points. ` mixed strength equipment is dodgy. 2 mechanical changes to new cars do not resolve existing fleet issues. 3. often the wreck is the result of signaling, rules issues which can be addressed in a number of ways. Thus 'hardening the target' while sometimes useful is not necessarily the most effective strategy.
In the Silver Spring wreck for instance 'cab signals' would likely have saved eight lives.
Sure a better signaling system would have helped prevent this accident and the ones in the UK, but cab signals don't protect against things like grade crossing accidents, freak clearance accidents, track failure, vandalism and debris on the track. With Push-Pull operations more popular than ever we have to make sure that a passenger car can stand up to the same amount of abuse a locomotive can. In the cab of a locomotive the engineer is protected by collision posts steel framing. In a control cab the engineer's only hope of survival is to bail out and run through the passenger car and don't forget that the passenger car is now leading the train. Instead of having a locomotive or express cars there to absorb the forces, we have a car with people. Their only hope is for the car to plough through whatever the obstruction is and remain intact until it comes to a rest. You can't prevent most of the types of accidents common today. All you can do is be ready for them.
Cab cars must have collision posts that meet or exceed FRA specs for locomotives. Coaches do not, just standard buff strength.
Motormen on MU cars have been "right up front" since 1914, and collisions have been below the national rail average for many years.
As to grade crossing accidents, they all belong in the "stupid human tricks" class. The trains don't jump off the tracks and hit motor vehicles, it's the idiot's at the wheel that's at fault.
As a friend of mine used to say about autos and trains at crossings: "You can win. You can lose. Never, never tie!"
Amtrak found an interesting solution to this problem: 'Cabbage' cars. They rebuilt mechanically unsound F40s into cab-baggage cars. No pax in the first car, and you have cab control.
-Hank
MARC had come Control Cab F units and the LIAR used old PA's. I saw some in Chicago. I, an F40 fan, was hartbroken.
IIRC the signal system was modified to make the blocks longer [read saving the RR's money on maintaining signals] and there were no longer leaving signals at the end of each station which should be a must for any passenger operation making frequent stops, like subways/els generally are. And engineers/TO's are human. Of course it's easy to blame the operator, or pass the buck to something else. I
Just so. The cheap but effective upgrade would have been some sort of 'repeater' at the station. Drawings in the railfan press at the time showed where the old signal mast had been removed. (Thank you John Snow) It may BTW be time to simply mandate cab signaling on all frt/pass trackage. And before any defenders of poor downtrodden rr's being burdened by pass train costs just remember, if all engines had them the price would drop. (you remember the lies in school about mass production right?) Seriously, signaling upgrades may well be in order, particularly since we can now locate engines without track circuits (GPS).
Tom,
We may not have had radial tires back then, but they are still "good old days" to me!
My dad bought a used 53 Chevy in 1954. The car seemed to have a flat tire every time we went to the garage. I honestly can't remember the tire brand involved (I wonder if they might have been US Royal), but he solved it by having a tube put in the flat tire. He did this three times and then went out and got a set of Firestones which solved the problem. He really did love Firestone!
Tom, you might be old enough, perhaps you remember the disasterous "recaps" of the 1940's. Weren't they a piece of work?
>>> perhaps you remember the disasterous "recaps" of the 1940's <<<
Karl;
I do not remember any disastrous recaps, but in the ‘40s no one in the immediate family owned a car. In the ‘50s recapped tires were a low cost alternative to a new tire for those that could not afford new tires and were considered ok for use in town on an automobile (before the Interstate highway system many people had cars that were only driven around town), and were popular on semi-trailers long after that.
Even worse than recaps were retreaded tires that were in Germany at least to the early ‘60s. These were worn tires that had uneven wear ground down and then had new treads cut into them. The bottom of the tread would be right at the cord, and usually they would paint the grooves of the tread black to hide anyplace where the tread cut had nicked the cord. I do not remember ever seeing retreaded tires in the U.S.
Tom
In the 70's I drove a yellow medallion cab and I remember all the NYC fleets used retreads. I remember a couple of times a chunk of the tread would come off and the tires would make a loud noise. I don't remember any blowouts or flats though due to them. (By the way, my cab company that I worked for was actually in that parking lot on the February page of Bill Newkirk's calendar at on 31st Street in LIC)
Bus tires are generally regroovable.
-Hank
I had a Firestone blowout on my new Ford back in 1985 after a big 3,400 miles, which is when I switched to Michelins. I also got to see an SUV-Firestone tire blowout and front-over-top rollover last month, two days after the first stories about the tire problems surfaced -- mom, grandma and two kids ages 2 and 3, who fortunately were not seriously injured.
Judging from the stories last week that indicated the tire problems surfaced first 18 months ago in the Middle East (since hot weather boosts the odds of tread seperation), I'd say Bridgestone/Firestone is in big trouble for the stonewall job they gave Ford on the AT's reliability when the problem first came up, while Ford is going to be hit with big-time judgements for not taking more of an initiative to find out what was going on between early 1999 and August, 2000.
Remember that Firestone was part & parcel of National City Lines. Ever seen a bus (or a trolley coach, until they killed them, too) on an NCL controlled system that didn't have Firestones?
For some of us who lived through NCL, it's just desserts. You did evil in the past, now evil is visited on you.
And Bridgestone. The Japanese parent of Firestone. Their track record for substandard tires is almost as long as a drag freight.
(Besides, there's just something suburban-ish about Explorers
and other SUV's.)
Nonetheless, there are few SUVs on my block. When parked at the corner, it is impossible to see, leading to fender benders. And if an SUV comes through your side window as a result, it's big trouble.
Perhaps due to parking, we don't have any of the really Loooong SUVs.
And if an SUV comes through your side window as a result, it's big
trouble.
As I've said before, that's largely a fallacy. SUV bummper heights are not so high that they'll be at the level of a car's window. Maybe one with an aftermarket lift kit, which you'll rarely see anywhere in the city.
By the way, it's not just SUV's that present an extra danger to cars in collisions, however exaggerated that danger may be. Earlier today I saw the aftermath of a crash on Route 112 in Port Jefferson, in which a late-model Honda Accord had rearended an older Chevy full-sized van. The battered Honda was being loaded onto a flatbed, its grill and headlights smashed, radiator punctured (there was water all over), and its hood and fenders buckled. A top notch body shop might be able to save it, from what I could see, but more likely it'll be off to the junk yard. The van? Completely undamaged, except for a paint smear on the rear bumper.
(By the way, it's not just SUV's that present an extra danger to cars in collisions)
Any heavier truck is a threat. The problem with an SUV is it's a truck driven by an amatuer. What surprised me, as I vacationed in Upstate NY, was how few of them there are. Upstaters, who may be able to justify an SUV, drive American cars and pickups.
I also saw an accident, on my way back from picking apples in northern Dutchess County. And SUV rolled on the Taconic Parkway.
Any heavier truck is a threat. The problem with an SUV is it's a truck driven by an amatuer. What surprised me, as I vacationed in Upstate NY, was how few of them there are. Upstaters, who may be able to justify an SUV, drive American cars and pickups.
SUV drivers aren't necessarily more "amateurish" than drivers of other trucks. Some of them may be less experienced simply because they're fairly new to the vehicles, but that will change over time. If SUV sales continue at their present rapid pace, then yes, it's true that there will be a relatively high number of inexperienced SUV drivers on the road at any particular time. But every steep demand curve levels out over time, and I don't see why SUV sales won't either.
Regarding Upstaters, I would imagine that the generally weak economy in the area is a major reason why you don't see many SUV's.
Actually my guess is the upstaters have more sense. If you need a truck you might as well have a truck and not something made to create an image. My late father-in-law had an SUV and whatever accomodations it offered could be matched by a conventional sedan, plus the sedan would have a trunk.
I've lived in areas for 23 years now where nearly evryone has a car and a (pickup) truck; my truck of choice is a full size van: I can haul nearly anything I want and it's under cover and not exposed to theft or bad weather. But most everyone else has a pickup, and SUV's are rare. If you're going to have the expense of driving a light truck as opposed to a car might as well have the service it offers.
Full sized and conversion vans get worse millage than SUV's. Needless to say my University bought some new Ford V10 vans to haul the boats with and I got to drive it. It was sooooo sweet.
Yes, I'm living proof. I almost cry every time I fill it up. 10 MPG; funny with the other carb I had I got 15. But I've moved almost 2 rooms of furniture with one, moved lots of building materials, etc. That's why I have one.If I ever want to camp the rough way it can be a camper, but the wind resistance [and reaction to wind] is bad so no wonder they're bad on fuel.
>>>The problem with an SUV is it's a truck driven by an amatuer. <<<
Amen to that
Peace,
ANDEE
Out here in North Dakota (we have no subway to ride) we get piles of snow, and bad weather. Anyway the only cars seen in the ditch were 4WDs. Go figgure.
Once upon a time....
when I was a kid on Long Island, there were TANKS in that Freeport Armory. And that was just on the west side of the Medowbrook State Parkway. Babylon Turnpike went over the parkway, and someone in a large Cadilac was headed west across the overpass at high speed, and ran into the side of a tank trying to enter the armory.
Bet you he can't do that again.
But I have never seen tanks at that armory since.
Elias
Anyway the only cars seen in the ditch were 4WDs.
That's not too surprising. 4WD gives most people a false sense of security so they think they can still drive like they usually do. Actually, 4WD vehicles are LESS stable on the road than 2WD vehicles and accordingly should be driven with MORE caution, not less, but they can get going SLOWLY when other vehicles would be totally stuck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyway the only cars seen in the ditch were 4WDs.
That's not too surprising. 4WD gives most people a false sense of security so they think they can still drive like they usually do. Actually, 4WD vehicles are LESS stable on the road than 2WD vehicles
and accordingly should be driven with MORE caution, not less, but they can get going SLOWLY when other vehicles would be totally stuck.
For what it's worth, the owner's manual for my Rodeo is quite clear about what 4WD can and cannot do. People who think 4WD helps you stop better on slippery pavement are either very naive or very foolhardy. That being said, the extra traction of 4WD can be invaluable at times, as long as you know what you're doing.
If you don't want to get stuck get a Jeep w/ a winch or an old M3 Half-track. A 1/2 track is my dream car, well that or an M8 greyhound or SKdfz-222
>>> A 1/2 track is my dream car <<<
Mike;
Do they quote the gas milage in those things in miles per gallon, or gallons per mile?
Tom
The M3 half track only used a White 160AX 127 hp I-6 with 386 cu in displacement. Recomended max speed is 45 mph, but the engine is not speed governed. Both the tracks and the front wheels were driven and you had an option of a which or anti-ditching roller in the front. Don't know millage, but it had a 60 gallon tank
An M8 used a 110 hp I-6 320 JXD Hercules engine. It went about 50 mph and got 6 mpg with a 53 gallon tank. M8 was a 6x6.
Now if you want to get to work in a hurry you can buy a surplus T17 Staghound. They had 2 97 hp GMC 270 I-6 engines (you could run on only one) and got about 4 mpg from the 112 gallon tank. The T17 went about 56 mph. You can get then down in central america.
[Don't know millage, but it had a 60 gallon tank]
These vehicles must be HUGE since "millage" is a term used in real estate tax computation formulae.
LOL, you got me there.
>>>When parked at the corner, it is impossible to see, <<<
They recently made 2 corners in my neighborhood "no standing at any time" zones, eliminating 4 parking spaces for everyone, due to this problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
Since it seems to be a high speed problem, anyone stupid enough to be driving one these monsters in NYC (average xtown speed 7 MPH) shouldn't have a worry.
Peace,
ANDEE
After 18 years, they finally made one corner near me a no standing zone. The corner it's on leads to a street with a blind 90 degree curve.
-Hank
Bob -
Netscape crashed when I tried to open your post. Curious, I tried again after restarting Netscape, same thing. Could you be using some sort of Java or something else that's causing trouble for older browsers (I'm using version 3.0)?
I don't think so. I haven't changed my configuration in quite a while, other than getting a cable moden 2 months ago. But I've posted mant times since then.
Peter;
I suspect the problem is local to your machine. I opened that message with problem.
Tom
Same with me and I have WebTV which always has problems with Java.
But I thought that Java was simply unsupported, so it would just ignore <APPLET> and <PARAM> tags.
I suspect the problem is local to your machine. I opened that message with problem.
Which is exactly what it turned out to be.
It seems that Me and Mr. SD-600 were in a race to first reply to the Meaningless thread. Look how close it came:
Fri Sep 8 18:40:01 2000
Fri Sep 8 18:40:02 2000
I'd be willing to bet that you'll never see the first 2 responces to a message being posted 1 second appart. Jeez, what happens in the event of a tie? Does the MB crash?
Also look at all the irony. I said let "me be the first" and I was with my post comming on the first second after 18:40. Mr. SD-600 was second ringing it at the second second after 18:40 Also another Subtalker said that we might have exausted all possible topics, but the Meaningless Post not only led to a rare Message Board phenominon and also meaning in the timestamp of the first 2 posts. Wow, I'm over stimulated, I gotta lie down!
During the Friday PM rush, there was a BIE on a northbound B train entering 59/Columbus Circle. This blocked the B & D service from Sixth Ave. (trains rerouted to 21 St.) and forced uptown C trains to go express from Canal to 59th St. Massive congestion on Sixth Ave. developed. For whatever reason, Essex Tower crossed a D train, mentioned in the title of this post, to the local track leaving Bway/Lafayette, and W.4th Tower sent this train upstairs at W4th St. onto the Eighth Ave. local track. But this train had no way to get onto the Eighth Ave. express track, since there is no crossover to the Eighth Ave. Express track between Canal & 59 St. and since access to 59 St. was also blocked from the Eighth Ave. local track, what to do with this D train? When it got to 42/8, it couldn't stay there as 50/8 upper level was already occupied. So this R68 D train got rerouted to 179 St. On my last E trip of my work day, as I was passing thru 63rd Drive on the Queens bound express track,, that train passed me on the Manhattan Bound express track running lite. I heard that train got put back into service toward Stillwell D at 50/6, being able to be crossed over at either 34/6 or W4th.
I was working the southern division of the D circa 1986 when the R68's were brand new while the D had split service and the D/Q made skip-stops on the Brighton. One day I was unable to turn at 57/7 due to a 12-9 (person under) southbound and I was rerouted to Continental. When I reached there, the tower emptied out as virtually everybody came out of the tower to check out this new piece of equipment most never saw before. The old time motormen, who worked Queens IND virtually all their careers and were now were working switching jobs were suprised and delighted that these cars operated the traditional 60 foot car way.
Darn! I missed that. Just got a plain old R46 F train.
On the LIRR port jefferson branch, the tracks extend beyond the station for quit some bit. Did this line once extend beyond the area?
Or was it extended to be used just as a yard?
ALso why is service on disel lines so slow? Port Jeff branch and ditto for the Oyster Bay branch. I know that the diesel fleet can do at least 60.
On the LIRR port jefferson branch, the tracks extend beyond the station for quit some bit. Did this line once extend beyond the area?
Or was it extended to be used just as a yard?
The line once ran as far east as Wading River, about 15 miles or so. Service was terminated east of Pt. Jefferson sometime in the 1930's.
I just added a page on the branch from Port Jeff to Wading River about a week ago to my lirrhistory website.
Sorry about the bad link. The Wading River page is here
While diesels may reach speeds of 60 miles per hour, they need a straight and level track to get that fast. Port Jeff branch has a lot of hills and curves with very few straight-aways other than Greenlawn to Huntington. Therefore, its not the equipment but the terrain that prevents top speed
Also note this is a manual block operation with train orders I believe. No signal system except at sidings (passing and station).
what will be the line-up of buses at the bus festival at the transit museum?
will njt's gg1 be brought into hoboken terminal?
what will be the line-up of buses in hoboken?
it used to be that subtalkers would look down on bustalkers for the problems they were having over there... well bustalk now is a model of decorum and seriousness ... they should be congratulated for the changes they have made... the unrelenting personal attacks going on in both directions here at subtalk speaks very poorly of the people engaging in them... to paraphrase a lawyer named welsh during the army-mccarthy hearings:have we no shame?
dont blame me "heypaul" i am out here shooting all of our rail systems hopefull shooting the blue line inside the motormans cab
( tomorrow starting at 3pm PST ) to almost midnight!!
im busy these days & have constructive things to do for myself others
& our world of enjoying "rail transit systems worldwide"
being called ""the left coast problem"" & all of the profane language
being used etc. ( oh well ) check out some of my new photos on
http://photos.yahoo.comasiaticcommunications
help yourself to the fine pics kick back download ENJOY !!...
peace see you this october i will call you again thankz "heypaul".
I totally agree with you. I think that is because a good number of very astute bus operators are contributing there regularly.
if everyone would stop picking on salaam (or anyone for that matter) our problems would all go away.
I proposed the exact same thing, if people stopping responding to Salaam's more disgusting messages, then nobody would ever have to be bothered with them. Instead, he posted MORE drivel. Hank Eisenstein has already mentioned it.
Salaam's "more disgusting" messages were only posted in response to equally or almost equally disgusting messages posted by others baiting him... if you completely ignore someone then yes they probably will post more.
My question is which subway division is the best to work on and why, and do you pick the division that you want to work or or is it picked by seniority?
You have to consider the BMT-IND as one division. As for the IRT, the overwelming majority of the jobs start/finish in the Bronx, and lets face it, if you don't live uptown, most don't want to commute 90 minutes each way to/from work. I feel sorry for a conductor who lived in Staten Island who was working midnites on the D while I was back in the summer of 1982. He went to the BMT-IND so he wouldn't, hopefully, have to travel too far. Poor guy. When he worked the extra extra list he did OK, but when he had to pick a regular job for the first time, this poor guy got stuck with 5 days on the midnite tour out of Bedford Park! Talk about traveling!
I too live in Staten Island and keep getting thrown to the IRT. As a CR I was forced to the A Div and stayed there working 15 months as an Extra Extra and Vacation Extra (I was 59 out of 60 on the VR list -half the time I was extra). I was finally able to pick into the B Div - 5 days on the Nancy - for 4 months before going to Motors. Now here I am back in the A Div. I pick this coming Friday in the B, but doubt that there will be anything left for me that I want, so I will probably stay in the IRT, where I will more than likely be able to pick an AM RDO Relief job out of Van Cortlandt.
Well as an ex Motorman I think I'll finally put my 2 cents in. As many have mentioned where you live at and the convenience of reporting terminals or yards is a major aspect. But I'll give my evaluation of the three, remembering that many lines overlap now that IND/BMT are in a sense one division now [since late 1967]
IND: the best railroad of the three. A lot of fast track, few slow curves, virually no one-block timers [unless they've added a bunch since my days there]. The least stressful of the three. Negatives: some lines can be very boring, like the G and what had been AA so pretty much the C IMO now.
IRT: even though the old stuff I loved is long gone it's still IMO the most nostalgic division and the variety of tunnel work, stations, classic el lines, and some fast track make it the most interesting.Negatives: there are some l0-12 MPH curves and a few other things that can make a job tiring, but generally not bad. Also as I remember the tunnels in summer were the hottest. At least on the original line: East side below GC, west side north of TSQ.
BMT: a lot of outdoor running, some historic lines undisturbed, basically enjoyable but: Negatives: way too many slow curves, one block timers in some cases all-red without a lunar to let you know the signal is on time...maybe they've corrected this? I found such routes to be way more tiring than the the IRT or IND.
I worked them all in liked each in its own way.
The only line that still has non-lunar white timers in the entire system is the L. But the timers are very easy to figure out, just gotta pray that there is no train in front of me or I'm taking a trip to CHHHOWWW city.
The original Contract One portion has a layer of waterproofing, which may be acting as insulation.
I pick Monday morning. I'll give you an idea as to whats left (that I can remember) on the PM tour. By the way--forget about AM's.
In the south on the PM's there are:
28 RDO relief jobs, 7 extra jobs, 1 OPTO extra job, 5 straight jobs.
Also available are 9 VR slots, 27 OPTO VR slots, 23 miscellaneous slots, 7 north extra slots, 2 queens extra slots, 2 queens OPTO extra jobs (you work Sat/Sun at Court Sq), 1 north OPTO extra slot.
Including all sections (South/Queens/North) on all tours, I would estimate that there are between 175 to 200 jobs left.
Good luck.
There is no "best" division to work on unless you like diversity in equipment. The "B" division runs more types of equipment than the "A" division. On your first day as a motorman, you go to the transit school(PS 248) in Bensonhurst and sit in the auditorium. There, the TA tells you if you have a choice between the A or B or the whole "class" could be mandated into one division. When I became a conductor, all 44 persons in our class were mandated to go into the "A" division. When I became a motorman, you could select where you wanted to go but seniority was a factor. There were about 50 people there with 26 slots available for the "B" and 24 for the "A" and those slots were taken in order by the persons who did the best on the civil service test picking first, on down to the persons who did the worst in that group picking last.
Hey, zman. You forgot the "C" Division -- Maintenance of Way.
You get REAL diversity with covering all divisions and using a variety of equipment. One of the main negatives is that you end up working erratic hours, usually in the Off-peak Midnight to early morning hours. Not fun for 'day people'.
Doug aka BMTman
Absolutely true, but miscellaneous classes are very rarely optioned to brand new T/O's. It'll be a long time before I decide to go that route. I will NEVER pick a midnight job. YUCK.
True, but if you're a "night person" it could be great. Besides, the best part is you don't have to work with the fikel and sometimes annoying public ridership.
Doug aka BMTman
Midnight person? Me?>>>>>>>>(in the voice of homey the clown)>>>>>I DON'T THINK SO!!! HOMEY DON'T PLAY DAT!!!
[I DON'T THINK SO!!! HOMEY DON'T PLAY DAT!!!]
Hey, zman, I'm a big "In Living Color" fan myself (that was the best show to come out of the 1990's. They had Jim Carey doing his "Fire Marshall Bill," and Damon Wayans doing "Homey D. Clown" and that smelly homeless man and one of the "Men on Film" characters. I don't think there's been a funnier show since).
Doug aka BMTman
And what about those Fly Girls? Look what happened to Jennifer Lopez!
Hey, Keyston Pete, that was the best part of the show!! (watching the 'Flygirls' go into action -- I would have loved a poster of that!)
And of course you had to mention Jennifer Lopez....yummmmy!!! :)
Doug aka BMTman
Sure you do. The midnight jobs usually have at least one trip during the AM rush, when you are the tiredest. If you're a night person, maybe you should try for a late PM job -- start around 1700 - 1800 and clear early in the morning. Talk about YUCK!
I'm the kid in the US Open 2000 shirt, I'm gonna be there like 12:15 for an hour. If you want to trade, buy(Yea!), sell, I'm the man to talk to!
--Clayton Parker--
23 years ago today, the last J train left the 168th St station. In one of the most ludicrous transit schemes in history, the city closed the 3 outer Jamaica Avenue el statons, with the thought of replacing it with a subway underneath nearby Archer Avenue. Jamaica business owners, the fools they were, thought the elimination of a direct rail link to their shopping district would actually be beneficial.
I have vague memories of riding the J train east of Queens Blvd. I was only 5 when it was closed. I loved to go shopping with my family in Jamaica. We'd always get on at Elderts Lane and we'd ride to the last stop. Then we'd walk along the avenue, stopping in all the stores (starting in May's, then Young World, and of course, Gertz). Then, after a trip to McDonalds, it was back onto the train at 160th St. for the ride home.
After the el closed, this once joyous trip became a nightmare for me. Suffering from serious motion sickness as a child, the bus ride became a tourture ride. If I didn't take any Dramamine, I was 100% guaranteed to barf up at least once, coming and going home. And if I was "lucky" to get that pill, I merely slept through the entire outing. Watching the men slowly tear down the el was also torture. I have vivid memories of looking up at nothing more than the steel skeleton and tracks with t's catwalks chainsawed off, and stations reduced to metal skeletons. The one summer, that was gone too. Nothing more than a few chopped of support girders where they were needed to old traffic lights.
Anyway, I'd like for everyone with positive memories about this part of the line to share them with this thread. And can anyone tell me if there was any ceremony with the last train out of 168th St? I know there were fan trips of Standards and Triplex trains on the 11th, 2 days later.
When I started dating in the early 1950's. I would often take my date to the Loew's Valencia (168th St station), or the RKO Merrick (160th St station).
I preferred the center platform station at 168th St and the Merrick Theatre. After the movie at the Merrick, we would often walk Jamaica Ave out to 168th. It was not a problem in those days.
There were always two trains of Standards there, one with doors open (next to leave), and one with the doors closed.
I recall one Friday night about 1953, when a heavy snowstorm started while we were in the theatre. The 168th St platform looked beautiful with the snow coming between the platform roof and the roofs of the cars. The Standards always looked good in a snow scene (the BU gate cars looked pretty good in snow too). I have lots of great memories of the Jamaica Line between Crescent St (my stop) and 168th St.
The end of service came about 2 months after my resignation from NYCT and my move to Montana [I'm now in NoDak]. Guess you were a neighbor of sorts to me. I lived on Elderts Lane [282] and then at 306 Grant..1968-77. Karl B in that area too.
I enjoyed working the J because it was outdoors mostly, and the "grand entry" into downtown Jamaica. What made it even better was having so many R9's on that line for most of the last few years. Felt like they belonged on the el. A pity that they truncated service, actually a crime...before the replacement line was connected, but even then it doesn't offer all the convenience the el did on Jamaica Ave, to 168 st. no less. I was glad to be a part of it, even though I worked Vacation Relief I worked the J about half the time.
Here's one for Karl B: since the standards were a part of life back then I recall at least one severe snowstorm in 1956 when the R16's were moved to Canarsie and the beloved AB's took their place on the Jamaica el! Once I got a chance to relive the old days, then the R9's brought them back for me, and I was a motorman on them then.
Ed,
The removal of the R-16 from the 15 Line during snowstorms has been mentioned before on this board, and I honestly don't remember it. In 1956 I was holdng down a full time job, a part time job and going to night school two nights a week. My transit hobby of years past was on a back burner by necessity. I did have to ride the train to go to school twice a week, and I would have thought that I'd have noticed that all of the R-16's were gone!
That one was the snowstorm that saved my life. I was out riding trains instead of doing my homework, and in 7th grade at [unfortunately IMO] in Catholic school then, and our 7th grade teacher [Brother] was the most feared in the school. So I rode the AB's on the Jamaica line [by the way they had BU scraper trains running there, I think they were but maybe the did use alcohol on the 3rd rail then?BU's running to Jamaica...light of course.]So my homework didn't get done and I feared the "good brother" was going to kill me for not having my homework done, for the first time all year.Luckily the phone rang next AM and I was advised school was closed because of snow. I did my homework right after breakfast. This was in March I think, but I was lucky once only to ride AB's to Jamaica. The snowstorm that saved my life..so I thought.
While the Lexington Ave el was still in operation the entire Jamaica Line from Marcy Ave to 168th St had an uncovered third rail. They used two 700 series gate cars as a scraper train. They would put a number of these two car train sets out on the line in a storm.
The uncovered third rail was slightly closer to the running rails. I don't know what year they converted to a covered rail.
I've seen pics on this website dated around 1956 showing no rail covering and ones from 1967-68 showing the rail covered, so I'd assume it was between these times.
That wasn't Holy Child Jesus School by any chance, was it?
No it was Sacred Heart in Highbridge, the Bronx. The teacher was Brother Aquinas Timothy who before he was a brother was an army Seargeant so I guess it was still in his blood! From the Bronx to Jamaica, and a few rides on the BU's on Myrtle, yes that was a lot of train riding. That's why my homework didn't get done. I know, I had Friday night and all day Saturday to do it but put it off. The storm was on a Sunday.
>>>...The teacher was Brother Aquinas Timothy...<<<
I heard about him from my cousin, a real sadistic SOB, guess I was lucky my parents moved to Jersey after 3rd grade.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-16s were allergic to snow, apparently. Someone noted that their original door engines didn't hold up in snowy weather. Whatever the reason, they would be sent to the Canarsie line when a snowstorm would hit, and BMT Battleships, er, standards would take over. It would take an epic blizzard (1888 or 1947) to slow them down.
I personally rode out to 168th St. on three different occasions between 1968 and 1969, all on trains of R-27/30s - one JJ and two QJs. In all cases, I didn't exit, but walked through the train to the other end
9/9/77 stands out in my memory for another reason (I would not find out about the el closing until the following spring): ABC sent a film crew to Storrs, CT that day to film the UConn Marching Band for football promo spots that fall. We spent three hours, in uniform, sweltering while the camera crews followed us everywhere. So, if you remember seeing a marching band during promo spots for upcoming football games that fall, that was us. One of ABC's bigwigs at the time was a UConn alumnus, and naturally he recommended us.
You'd think that the snow problems would've made the R16 more adept at running on a mostly-below ground IND line, instead of the nearly completely elevated eastern division lines. I wonder why the R16 was assigned to the eastern division when they were completely new. No R10's went there in 1948.
My thought are that the R10's were earmarked for the A which at that time or shortly thereafter was extended to Euclid. Like it or not the R10's made the run to Euclid in about the time it took my dear R1-9 to go from 207 to East NY. By the time all the R10 were delivered there became a car surplus on the IND and with the Astoria line made a thru service BMT only surplus R1's went to the BMT for the 4th Ave. local-Astoria service. I think it was the winter of 56 or 57 some R10's were on the Jamaica el as well.
The R-10s were tailor-made for the A. Their sheer brute speed was perfect for express runs, and the A had the best one of all - CPW.
Fifty R-16s went over to the A in 1956 when the Rockaway line opened. By 1959, they were all back on the BMT.
On the Jamaca line going away from B-way and Myrtle there was a store called bargan town usa,the whole bldg was painted red white and blue is that bargan town still there ?
I normally work the J and I can't seem to picture that building that you are talking about. I believe that store went out of business because there are no buildings in the Bway-Myrtle area with wild color schemes like that.
09/10/2000
Oh yes Karl! I do remember that building since my father used to take me there bargain shopping in the early 60's. Yes, the building is still standing, but is painted gray. You can barely make out the stripes underneath.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks,not being around the N.Y.C.area since the late 60's i just wonder what's left of places my parents and i used to go to. next summer i plan to vist N.Y.C.on my vacation,hopefully durring a subtalk field trip.
You may be interested to know that there was at least one other Bargaintown store. It was on Rockaway Turnpike, just over the NYC line in Nassau (at least I think it was over the line.) When Bargaintown went out, the store became a Times Square Store (TSS), which was also a primitive discount store. The site is now occupied by Costco.
I have vivid memories of this building, but it was painted grey about 10 years ago. The store itself is long gone.
Living in Elmont, I started (or ended) quite a few of my subway rides at 168th Street station, usually on a "QJ" train of R27/R30 cars, or, later R-7a and R-9 cars; or a #15 train of R16's. R42 cars began showing up on the "QJ" around the fall of 1969; these cars belonged to the top half of the 4800 series. I wonder if there is anything left of the west entrance at 168th Street - the one that you would have to enter through a building. If I remember correctly, there was tile in the entranceway. Too bad neither my Dad or I ever got a picture of it. I would then go round the corner on 165th Street to the Bus Terminal to get a Bee Line (later MSBA) N-6 bus home. Occasionally I would stop off at Triboro Records to add a 45 to my collection.
I remember all the stations having the 1917 platform lamps (with the heavy iron shades), including 168th Street.
wayne
wayne
Bee Line???? Does this bring back memories???
By the way, it was never the N6 when it was Bee Line.
(Note: This post belongs in Bus Talk.)
I've ridden on that very bus quite a few times. That is a non A/C'd Fish Bowl. You are correct, it did not get the N6 designation until it became MSBA somewhere around 1973 or 1974. That bus and all the other Bee Line buses got the MSBA livery (and this belongs on BusTalk) - for the most part they looked OK but they decided to do one of the old GM New-Looks up in blue and orange - it was #619 and it looked awful. They should have painted the top white instead of blue.
The N2 went right by my house and stopped a block and a half away.
wayne
The R-1/9s made their last revenue trip on the J line (Jamaica Ave El) on March 31st, 1977. I thought the Jamaica Ave El was cut back from 168th St to Queens Blvd on September 11th, 1977.
--Mark
I used to have a brochure which announced the closure and where the new replacement bus (Q49) would stop. Unfortunatley, I lost it, and the 9/9/77 date is from memory.
On one of my first trips to NYC with a couple of railfan friends, I talked my friends into a trip out to Jamaica on the KK and QJ. The R-7/R-9 fleet was still running so it was endangered old cars on two endangered lines. It was the only chance I had to do the line and it was a good choice, covering both the now-disused part of the Chrystie St. connection, and the soon to be abandoned outer end of the Jamaica Av. el. Returning to Broadway Junction we changed to the A and endured the local back to midtown. The el, though slow, was the more pleasant ride!
I've got a strange question for learned railfans:
When the KK/QJ ran skip stop service to 168th St, can anyone tell me which of the now gone stations east of 121 St. were served by which line?
Metropolitan Ave, Queens Blvd, Sutphin Blvd, 160th St and 168th St were all served by both the KK and the QJ.
I know this does not sound right, but that is what the 1969 map indicates. According to this map the QJ stopped at all stations, and the KK was a skip-stop train.
This map indicates that the KK skipped the following stations- Cleveland St, Crescent St, Forest Pkwy, Woodhaven Blvd, 111th St and 121st St.
I would not have been able to answer your question without the help of LarryRedbirdR33, who supplied me with the map for a different project.
Chris,
Disregard my post about the QJ making all stops. I was wrong because I read the map and ignored the footnotes. The KK was a rushhour train only. When it operated the QJ would skip the KK stops except for Sutphin Blvd, Elderts Lane, Eastern Pkwy, and Myrtle Ave, which were transfer stations where both trains stopped. The strange thing is that these arrangements seem to be for morning rush only. Unless these footnotes are wrong, the QJ must have made all of the stops on Jamaica Ave during evening rush.
The QJ made the following rush hour stops: Sutphin, 121st, 111th, Woodhaven Blvd, Elderts Ln, Crescent and Cleveland.
The KK made the following stops: 160th, Sutphin, Queens Blvd, Metropolitan Ave, 102nd, Elderts Ln, Cypress Hills, Norwood Ave, Van Sicklen Ave and Alabama Ave.
The confusion on the map is due to the fact that the QJ ran during non-rush hours as well.
Thanks. Curious to see that Sutphin Blvd. was an express station. It was probably important for the x-fer to the LIRR. I wonder why the J train didn't run to Sutphin Blvd from 1977 to 1985, instead of terminating at Queens Blvd. The el structure was demolished just up to the intersection of Sutphin/Jamaica.
And that portion was still intact as late as October of 1988. They certainly took their sweet time dismantling it. I took a J out to Jamaica Center in 1990, and the support columns were still standing beyond 121st St., although the plate girders had been removed.
Yeah, it was torn down in late 1990. I still don't understand why it couldn't have remained open until 1987 at the latest.
Me too. I drove under that structure on the morning of my sister's wedding day (10/22/88), but don't remember seeing any evidence of a connection to the Archer Ave. line. Then again, maybe I didn't go far enough.
Yes, the connection was there at that time (it opened less than 2 months later). The connection first opened in the early spring of 1988, as the tracks leading down the ramp were used to lay up trains. I used to see a lot of out of service R30 redbirds at that time.
Now that you mention it, I thought I remember seeing some sort of ramp veering off to one side before 121st St. (I was headed west on Jamaica Ave.) I drove down from Tarrytown, where we were staying, to pick up an invited guest, and had some time to kill. Also drove along Hillside Ave. for a stretch.
That A ride couldn't have been all that bad if you got a train of R-10s.
Actually I don't remember whether it was an A or an E, which at that time was the rush hour service to Rockaway.
The A and E flipflopped for the last time in 1973, with the A running express in Brooklyn during rush hours. The E was permanently cut back to WTC in 1976, with the CC continuing on to Brooklyn.
Anyone have pictures of the line being demolished?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I remember it vividly, but I didn't have a camera back then. The demolition of the Culver Shuttle pictures' page on this website will give you some idea what it looked like. For years, well into the 80's, several of the steel supports remained, chopped off about halfway up, which held traffic and street lights.
At least a couple of reminders of the old elevated remain...the 'dwarf' lampposts in the vicinity of the Van Wyck Expressway. They were stunted to fit under the el...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Love the panorama shots in the masthead. Whats happening in the shot where the yellow locomotive seems hooked up to a train of Redbirds? What are the specs of the loco and how is it normally used?
David Harrison
It's hard to tell for sure unless you say exactly what photo you're talking about. This site's banner is dynamic, so the chances are very good that I won't see the same photo you see when you load the page, and that you won't even see the same photo every time you load it.
Based on your description, it can be one of two things:
(your words) A yellow locomotive hooked up to a train of Redbirds.
or
An observation car leading a train of Redbirds, probably from the recent fantrip. Details are available at http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/0f116.html. The banner in question:
http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/banner4/banner-of116.jpg
Mark
0F116 was at the rear of the train. The photo was taken at Ditmas Ave. (F) by our webmaster.
It's NOT a locomotive. Well, blow me away. The interior shot looks more like a schoolbus. What is it used for?
David Harrison
Li'l slice o' heaven today as I rode R-36 # 9470, the head car of a Queens-bound #7 train, with a completely scratch-free front window! A little smudged dirt was all that was between me and the tracks ahead. Looks like the fantrip Redbirds weren't the only windows replaced.
It may have been scratch free because it was new and the window that was in there previously had to be replaced because it may have broke.
sure hope this is still so this late october!! scratch free railfan windows make great videos !!
or still pictures if your camera is fast enough
(Train Dude notice here, another completely sensible, nice post from salaam)
One more idiotic post like your last three and I killfile you.
Respectfully,
Bob
please ignore what churchbob has to say on his "killfile list"
thankz Siemens SD-600..!!! notice how train dude didnt see this !
Salaam:
There was no reference to you, good sir, in my post. I reached the limit of my tolerance when someone pointed out the obvious to the pperson who put up three consecutive illogical posts and he still ignored it.
Also, good sir, please let Mr. Dude speak for himself.
Thankz.
Your good buddy,
Bob
okay so were you threating to put ME on your killfile list? I believe that Train Dude may have already killfiled me because we have different opinions on Salaam...
I tried to find any postings about the 9th Ave El, from 1996 to the present, but there are none. I am surprised because, at 10.24 miles of trackage (South Ferry upto the 155h St. station), was the largest single abandonment of elevated trackage in the City. Can anyone give me beginning and ending demolition dates for the El, the 159th St. yard, and the Polo Grounds Shuttle. There are plenty of books and articles about the other Els, but very little about the 9th Ave line.
Thank you,
Mike O'Leary
Yes, your are right, there is nothing about the demolition of the 9th Ave El. The demolition of the high 110th St structure must have been something to report on. My best guess for any information from that era would be the NY Daily News Archives. All the other NYC Daily papers other than the the NY Times have disappeared along with the els. Maybe, the Electric Railroaders Assn (ERA) may have something in thier files.
There have been a lot of postings on this board about the Polo Grounds Shuttle as there has been a few field trips trips.
But almost nothing about its demolition.
The search function only searches the last 5000 messages regardless of the dates you select. Use the Subtalk Archives link to browse older messages--currently no searching is available.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave! Isn't it surprising that no one would know when demolition began and ended for the El, where it began and ended, and ditto for the 159th St yard. I would think that 10 1/4 miles of track deserved a little more in the history books.
MIKE
During the research phase for my upcoming book "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" I ran into much of the same difficulty in locating material about that particular El's demolition. Unlike the passing of the Sixth Avenue line a few years earlier, or the later closings of Manhattan's Third Avenue and Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue Els, the destruction of this particular line did not elicit much in the way of public sentiment. At the time of its demolition in late 1940 and early 1941, the United States was in the midst of a major military buildup in anticipation of eventually entering the war then raging in Europe. Unlike the Sixth Avenue El (whose steel had been sold to Japan and which by this time had no doubt been converted into the bombs which would soon rain down on Pearl Harbor), the scrap from this El was immediately made into the instruments of war. For photographs of its demolition, check out the New York Times index at your local library. From late 1940 early into the next year, you will find photographs and a handful of articles concerning the Ninth Avenue El's demolition, including a few shots of that high stretch of tracks known as "Suicide Curve" coming down. Enjoy!
Eric Dale Smith
Thanks for the information, Eric! I'm looking forward to your book, when it comes out. I'll take your word for the 1940- 41 demolition period. Someone had told me that the 9th Ave. El came down in 1942, after the cars were scrapped or removed from the 159th St. yard. If I find out anything, I'll let you know.
MIKE O'LEARY
I assume you've seen the writeup of the 9th Ave El / Polo Grounds Shuttle here on the site?
--Mark
Mark, I'm STILL looking for more specific information on the demolition of the 9th Ave. El. Where did it begin and end? When did demolition commence and finish? Does anyone have any pictures of the demolition of the El, the 159th St. Yard, and the Polo Grounds Shuttle.
You guys were great wih my other questions and I thank all of you. What puzzles me is the paucity of information about the removal of almost 10 1/4 miles of elevated structure- the largest El demolition in the City.
MIKE O'LEARY
I found a better Celebrate the Century Postal Service train picture than the one linked the other day.
Today Amtrak's Wilmington Shop opens for employees, relatives, and friends to visit. I attended this open house event for the third consecutive year.
As usual, the Open House has a lot of festivities. Clowns are greeting kids, and there are a lot of exhibitions such as AEM7s, two tables of model railroad, and cars of 50's and 60's, and so on. Since I am an AEM7 fan, my focus for the past three years is always AEM7s.
For the first time, AEM7ACs are open to public. They show the electrical components made by Alsthom, and we can board the cabs of AEM7ACs 905 and 920 to watch the new instruments. It is unbelievable to see a remanufactured locomotive work well.
I boarded AEM7 908, which is about to be remanufactured. All components are moved away, and it is painted write. It really looks like a skeleton.
I have a lot of fun visiting the Open House, but I am quite sad that both 905 and 920 are painted in the UGLY Acela painting scheme, instead of keeping their former scheme-- the NortheastDirect painting scheme. Of course, I used up one roll of slide film.
Chaohwa
And you will get these pictures developed and posted soon, I hope? Looking forward to seeing them!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least I will post the pictures of AEM7ACs 905 and 920. As for cab pictures, it will depend on whether the resolution is good or not.
Chaohwa
Yesterday, I saw a 7 local queensbound at Shea Stadium with both sides of doors open. Isn't that unusual? In case you're wondering, the platforms were NOT crowded.
It's for the U.S. Open
That has happened a few times at Whitehall St. when the train arrived on the center platform(track construction) The reason both sides were open was that the conductor didn't know which was the right side.
Stan Fischler has just come out with a new book titled "The World's Subways". It is a brief (one hundred or so pages of text and color photographs)description of major subway systems around the world in such diverse places as London, New York, Boston, Paris, Chicago, and Moscow. It has an old color photograph of open gated Q Cars rumbling along Brooklyn's late Myrtle Avenue El as well as a recent photograph of a Loop bound Midway train leaving the Roosevelt Avenue station in Chicago. Costing around $13.00 it is a neat effort and well worth picking up.
Eric Dale Smith
Checked the GCT transit museum store, they're not carrying it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Try Barnes & Noble - look in the Transportation section.
I picked up my copy today at the one on 6th & 22nd - they had only 2 copies on the shelf (now only one copy).
We have it at TMNY. Shop us on-line at tmny.safeshopper.com.
Most of the BIG bookstores often keep only one or two copies on the shelves. When they are sold, the warehouse brings new ones in the next day. That is why those stores can have 100,000 titles, they only have one or two of each. The computers tell them when to restock daily.
Amazon.com has the book too as does chapters.ca for you Canadians reading this.
Chapters.ca isn't a bad source of books even for those of us in the US. Delivery takes longer but they have a much better availability than Amazon.com.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of books,has anyone seen the book " Gotham Turnstiles " by john henderson ? we had a tread awhile back on the gum machines the subway stations had,well on page 41 there are a few such machines at the 96 th st. station on the 7 th ave line in 1964,along with a set of lo-v's..in color...how many such photo type books like this are there and are the titles available with the authors ? this soft cover book sure takes me back to the " good old days of transit in N.Y.C.)has Mr Henderson written another book like this one ?
The publisher has this available at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza this past weekend (9/8, 9/9). New ones were on sale, or you could buy "seconds" (damaged books) for $10 or less.
--Mark
This is a short, illustrated, overview book , part of the MBI "enthusiast" series. Although nicely illustrated, it deals with the subject in only a shallow, general way. Sometimes, Fischler seems to miss the point entirely, as in the chapter on the Tokyo system. Fischler spends a great deal of time describing the large underground "subnades", interconnected subway concourses that characterize the Tokyo subway system. He only briefly mentions the most unique and important aspect of that system, that is the interconnection of the private railways and JR lines that allow for through running from great distances into the Tokyo subway from commuter lines. Most of the text is paraphrased from Benson Bobrik's "Labrynths of Iron", which Fischler credits throughout the book. As a "new" book about subways, I suppose that a subway fan should spend the few bucks on it for the photos, but we've come to expect more from Mr. Fischler. Fischler is capable of some good work, as evidenced by his earlier volumes on the New York system. Unfortunately, I can't count this one among them. I give it just two and one-half stars!
While it is pretty good, there is a glaring error in the NY chapter when discussing the BRT (something about the BRT "Line" starting in 1915, when it should have said Sea Beach line.) I don't have the book in front of me (it's at home) but that entire paragraph in particular is completely wrong. (I think it's on page 24).
--Mark
E DOG:
I have a copy a Stan Fischler's book "THE SUBWAYS" but I would like to get some information upon where I can obtain a copy of "THE WORLD'S SUBWAYS" if possible.
BMTJeff
amazon.com, bn.com, chapters.ca, etc. over the Internet.
I came across it almost by accident at a Barnes & Noble near the White Marsh Shopping Mall northeast of Baltimore. I've not been back to New York for a few months but if memory serves me correctly there is a place called Willis Avenue Hobbies on Willis Avenue a half a block north or so from Jerico (I think I spelled it wrong) Turnpike in Mineola, Long Island. They're great at carrying the latest books on Mass Transit (Far better than even the NYC Transit Museum I might add) so if you live in the New York area, I suggest you make your way out there. Peace!
Eric Dale Smith
E DOG:
Thank you vary much for telling me where I can get a copy of Stan Fischler's latest book.
BMTJeff
Several months ago, I visited www.bettertransit.org, and sent an e-mail to the state through that site. Well, today I received a letter in the mail from the State Senate, signed by Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno himself. He seems to be making it sound like real progress will be made, but it is probably too much to hope for, and I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.
Anyway, here is the text of the letter, dated September 5, 2000:
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Mr. Goldman:
Thank you for your recent correspondence requesting state support in the 2000-2001
State Budget for mass transit.
I am pleased to report that the recently enacted 2000-2001 State Budget provides for a
new $34 billion five-year capital plan for New York's transportation infrastructure. The five-
year program is funded by a $2.4 billion increase in state revenues dedicated to transportation
and a proposed $3.8 billion Bond Act to be submitted for voter approval in November.
The five-year capital plan includes a $17.1 billion State Department of Transportation
program for state highways and bridges, transit systems, rail, aviation, local roads, ports and
canals, and a $17.1 billion program for the subway, bus and commuter rail systems operated
by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA).
This new plan fully funds the five-year MTA capital program which will continue to
improve the condition of the existing system as well as address important expansion projects,
such as the construction of the East Side Access and the Second Avenue Subway. The State
Legislature also added $45 million to the MTA operating budget to avert fare increases in the
near future and allocated $8 million of this funding for the operations of the Long Island Bus
Company.
Other transit systems in the state also will benefit from the 2000-2001 State Budget,
receiving more that $218 million of state operating aid this fiscal year and $271 million of
state capital funding over the course of the five-year transportation plan.
Again, thank you for writing. I appreciated having the benefit of your comments
during budget deliberations.
Sincerely,
Joseph L. Bruno
How much of this is going to the Manny B?
Sarge,
Since you work in the area you may already know the answer to this.
If you were to turn off Broadway onto Lexington Ave and follow the route of the old Lexington Ave el till you got to Myrtle and Grand, how much distance would you have covered?
I loved that old line, but I must admit that I have no idea whatsoever as to what the distance is between those two points.
Karl, the way I figured it out anyone on the internet could have done it. I went to one of those get directions sites. I first entered Bway and Lexington to Grand and Lexington and got 2.0 miles. Since Grand doesn't go through anymore I couldn't enter Grand from Lex to Myrtle so I took a parallel street (Classon Avenue) since the distance should be the same. Classon and Lex to Classon and Myrtle was .5 mile. So the whole distance turned out to be 2 1/2 miles.Funny thing was I had to go to 3 different direction sites before I found one that didn't go an indirect route. Computor glitch I guess, but Yahoo's direction finder took a real roundabout route.
the direction finders route you via the most main arterials and freeways, assuming that the more major the road, the faster the speed.
Sarge,
I sure am sorry that you went to all of that work. Since you had been hunting for remnants of the el, I thought you might have known the distance.
I am surprised that it works out to only 2 1/2 miles. I thought that there were eight stations eliminated by the razing of that el, and that the distance would have been greater.
What do you mean by "Grand doesn't go through anymore"?
Thanks so much for all of your work!
Grand is broken over there. I think the Pratt Institute campass is over there.
I know that Pratt has been there for years and years and that the Pratt Glee Club supposedly serenaded the Last Lex when it went by in 1950.
I can't help but wonder if the el cut right through the campus or whether the campus was expanded after the el was razed.
Well I unfortunately rode the subway today. All Queens BLVD IND trains ran local, and it took forever to get from Jamaica to Manhattan.
But that wasn't the worst. I knew that no N or R trains were running beyond 57&7th, so I knew the E/F would get more crowded at Queens Plaza, and it did get somewhat crowded.
Then we arrived at Lexington and there were hoardes of people getting onto our train. I got off and had something in Cinnabon, then I was going to catch the 6 to Grand Central. Got down to the platform and there was a train packed, standing in the station. I tried to fit in but it was impossible. Then I heard 'due to a police investigation there will be no downtown 6 service at this time. please take E or F trains instead." That explains the crowds of people on the
E/F platform. I saw there was also a train waiting behind the 6 in the station.
WCBS 880 was of no help as to explain what was going on, just the usual "no problems in the WCBS transit center" clueless as to the mess in the subways this afternoon.
So I had to forget about Grand Central and figured I'd just hang out at the Manhattan mall for awhile. The F train I boarded was packed, fortunately I had something to hold onto, took it to 34th and was glad to get the hell outta there.
I saw that there was no D service between 34th and W4th, putting yet more people onto the F.
When it was time to go home, around 5pm, I decided maybe I could get a seat on the F if i took an 8th ave train down to W4th. I didn't have to wait long before a southbound "A" of R44's came in to 34th. It wasn't too crowded, and the ride was pretty fast. Got off at W4th to see a "D" come in and dispense people onto the F.
An "F" pulled in and it was already crowded. I squeezed on but at 34th street it got even worse, as you could barely fit people into the train. Once we got to Lex it was gridlock, I just decided I had to get the hell out of there. It took several minutes for the doors to close, as the train was stuffed with people, barely fitting behind the doors. I took an "E" to Penn and decided to get the 5:46pm train to Great Neck.
The train was busy, but it was so much better than the subway. Pretyty fast ride through the East River tunnels and I was in Great Neck in a half-hour.
I don't think I'll be taking the subway that much on weekends, there are too many GO's, diversions, and problems. The TA acts like no one rides the subway on weekends, but it's quite the opposite. Instead you have tourists and people from other boroughs shopping.
And the 7 wasn't an option either, those cramped redbirds were probably packed from people who normally use the "N".
The subway is too crowded, slow, and infrequent on weekends.
And for the next few weekends there will be no trains across the Manhattan bridge, sounds like an even bigger mess.
The No.6 Line also had a G.O North of Elder Ave involing changing rails. The No.6 was running a 10 Minute headway all day normally its 5 Minutes between train. I did my last trip out of Pelham at around 4PM and all the No.6 Trains were picking up wall to wall people between 96 Street and Bleeker St. I was glad the R142A was not on time other wise I would have had to operate it. The Train was 20 Minutes behind me and broke down at 33 Street going Downtown around 5PM. The train was taken to Brookyn Bridge Spur where the T/O was suppose to leave the train and Car Eqiupment was on its way down there. They say something fell off the train. It is unknown was fell but the Police where there to help Discharge the train. A No.4 Train was used to make all stops from 14 St to Brooklyn Bridge.
The R142A Made it 9 Days but will now go back to Day 1
Of course it takes forever to get new trains running. Only in NYC. Only in America.
When will be seeing R142's replacing Redbirds? Let me guess, the year 2020.
And the Manny B mess will still be around.
i just thought of something horrible... if it takes to 2020 for the r-142's to get all the bugs ironed out, by that time they will be ready for a general overhaul... i am sure by then, they will want to modernize all the 20 year old systems... they will probably want to put in even newer technology, which might require a few more years for the testing and certifying...perhaps by then, the few people who are needed by corporate america to work, can go to work on their own personal foot powered scoooters...
Sounds to be like something from a bad dream. I wonder who to blame for that mess on Saturday. Is it the TA or some other group that keeps screwing up what should be the greatest subway system in the world. Anyone know? I'd love to know myself.
What exactly happend to the r142a, please respond. Why was it taken out of service.
The Upstate Republicans in Albany who hate NYC are responsible. Bush and Cheney and $3.00 a gallon for gas to line their friends pocketsAND 3XS HIGHER INSURANCE preminums
Personally, I HOPE that it takes until 2020 to iron out all the kinks. These new trains are a motorman's worst nightmare. Sure they're terrific for passengers and railfans but all the new devices like "black boxes" and the one awkward handle to operate with only means trouble for the ones who have to work on those contraptions.
At least the R-142 ran Saturday. I was on it at 8:30 at 180 Street.
wow. i thought it was still out of service. hopefully this one will pull through with no problems
things take getting used to. nyc hasn't gotten a new fleet of trains in so long that using them seems complicated.
things take getting used to. nyc hasn't gotten a new fleet of trains in so long that using them seems complicated. you are still used to the outdated way of operation
How many are running so far?
well that shows you that the japanese aren't perfect either. anything is bound to happen no matter where it comes from. speaking of something falling off of the new trains, thats scary!
LIRR is also having some problems with the new Bi-level fleet.
They just don't make 'em as good as they used to. The M-1's are still my preferred LIRR car of choice, because they are sturdy and reliable, and fast...
Also I think in the NYC subway fleet the R44 and R46 trains are some of the best damn things running. You can also add the Slant R40 and R32 to that list.
The newest Div B cars (the R68's, otherwise known as Hippos) are in not so great shape (much noisier than the older R44 and 46) and Hippos are slow and hard to stop.
Years ago when NYC subway got their new trains there weren't so many problems. Either the workmanship is going down the tubes or there's just more red tape.
Why was there no D service between 34th and W. 4th Sts.? There was nothing mentioning that on the MTA Web page.
Work on the Manny B.
NYCTA Service Advisory
Oh, piffle. The hyperlink didn't take. Here's the URL:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm#DLine
Just for grins, lemme try the hyperlink again.
No D trains on Manhattan Bridge (NYCTA)
That service advisory you link us to in a later post says that the Manny B will be down starting next weekend: Sept. 16. What has been going on this weekend is this: Switch work southbound on the D entering 50/6. Because of this split D service. Stillwell to W4, and 205 to Bway Lafayette. They could relay at Bway Laf or Second Ave. I didn't see how those trains were relayed because the G.O. was STOLEN from Jamaica Center. As I said a few months ago, we don't know about a lot of G.O.'s because a supervivor who may be working at different locations confiscates major G.O.'s from terminals for their own possible use later in the week at another location. Anyhow, s/b D trains leaving 59/8 go down Eight Ave. to W4 upper level where they change for a Stillwell bound D downstairs or at Bway Laf across the platform. Too bad that in 34 years since Chrystie St. has been opened a s/b D can't go down Eighth Ave, come downstairs leaving W4th and cross again from B1 to B3 before reaching Bway Laf so the split service due to this G.O. or any other interruption of service wouldn't have to occur. The reverse can and does happen n/b because of the diamond crossover leaving Bway Laf n/b between B4 & B2 tracks.............P.S. if a reader of this post doesn't know the physical layout of the area, you won't have a clue of my post!!!!!
I know I checked the G.O.s on the website and didn't come across it. If I knew there was no 6th ave D service I would've avoided 6th ave.
Just curious. Assuming you still live in Sea Cliff, why take the Port Wash train to Great Neck. Even if you had to wait a while longer and change at Jamaica wouldn't it be much easier taking the O.B. train directly to Sea Cliff and not have to take the N22 from Great Neck??
By the way, I avoided Manhattan altogether and spent this great day at Beautiful Belmont Park.
Because it takes like 30 minutes longer to take the OB line, and it only runs every two hours on weekends.
Also it's an uphill walk from the Sea Cliff train station. I just don't like the Oyster Bay branch that much. Its a small time operation, with infrequent service and has a long slow route.
Due to U.S. Open special trains were run to Great Neck from Penn, so Port Washington branch had half hourly service. And it's only half hour from Penn to Great Neck, so it's a fast ride and no dealing with the Jamaica headache.
And it's only about a 20 or 25 minute bus ride from Great Neck to Sea Cliff. Besides, Great Neck is a busy, happening train station. Sea Cliff is just plain depressing. Last time I noticed weeds are growing between the tracks, because trains run so infrequently. And next weekend, buses will replace OB trains due to LIE bridge construction. I don't think there's anything wrong with my preference for the Pt. Wash trains, as alot of commuters from Sea Cliff also drive to Manhasset or Great Neck, even as far as Syosset, just to avoid the OB line.
Perhaps if they had electrified the OB branch a long time ago service would be better, but as we all know that was NIMBY'ed out.
And the proof that OB line don't pay, because it's a half hour from Penn to Great Neck, then about 25 minutes on the bus and I'm home, so that's about 55 minutes.
On the OB line travel time from Penn is about 60 minutes, then add to uphill 25 minute walk to home. It's just quicker and easier to get the train from Great Neck.
This book was discussed in a thread not too long ago. I believe that someone said that it was out-of-print.
I visited the gift shop of the Rockhill Trolley Museum at Rockhill Furnace, PA (home of the East Broad Top RR) today, and they have several copies of the book, brand new, sealed in shrink-wrap. They are priced at $12.95.
The address is,
Rockhill Trolley Museum
Railways To Yesterday, Inc.
P.O. Box 203
Rockhill Furnace, PA 17249-0203
Phone 814-447-9576
Karl -
Did you buy one? I'm assuming that it is the most recent edition and am curious how recent that is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
Yes I did! It is identified as
Copyright 1977
6th Printing - Nov. 1994
Hope this helps!
Thanks... it's newer than the one I have by about ten years. I might have to think about getting an updated copy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They had a sample copy there that was not sealed in plastic.
It never occurred to me to check to see which printing that was!
>>> it's newer than the one I have by about ten years. I might have to think about getting an updated copy. <<<
Keep in mind that a new printing (1994) that has no new copyright notice (1977) has no new editorial content. It just means they ran out of copies in the warehouse and cranked up the printing press.
Tom
Yes and no. Quadrant Press has been notoriously sloppy in that regard. Mine carries the 1977 copyright but has additional material from 1984, including additional pages of photographs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I made updates every time I had "They Moved The Millions" reprinted and in this latest and final reprint changed some pages entirely. But it still carries the 1985 copyright which IIRC expired 5 years ago.It doesn't matter to me..I have no problem with sharing whatever I wrote if anybody needs it.
I own that book. It's a wonderful little thing. I bought it at a hobby shoppe 10 or more years ago. Its currently on loan to my friend in Englande.
The J line northbound platforms at Lorimer St., Gates Av., and Chauncey St. have officially closed until mid-December for renovations and asbestos removal. They are going to erect plywood barriers at these stations so you won't be able to see a thing, so if you want to take pictures of the old platforms, you'd better hurry. During this G.O., all J and Z trains will stop at Kosciusko and Halsey Sts.
Until 12/18/00. See my post on J Line Renovation for the work scheduled to be performed.
METROCARD COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is a beautiful 8.5 X 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A collectors MUST HAVE!! The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman
To:
Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station
NYC NY 10024
What is going on in Newark? Are the new trolleys operating? Has the line been extended past Franklin Avenue?
1. They are still working (albeit at a snail's pace). The platforms at Franklin/Branch Brook and Orange Street are almost done but there is still a ways to go. At Washington Street, they closed a portion of both platforms for renevation.
2. Yes - on the HBLR
3. Yes - not for passengers (yet). I still don't know if the extension will ultimatly carry passengers. I don't see why not.
Besides, it's not his fault that he lives in LA.(GOD I HATED LIVING THERE!!!!!!)
amen to that!
i agree with you , i live in pasadena just outside LOST ANGELES !! ( whew) !!
& by the way L.A. is now worse than when you used to live here !!
life is full of dissapointments!!!! Now the MTA L.A. is going to go on strike buses & all rail tranist systems stranding all transit riders, a disaster for those here who do not own cars & are transit dependent
unless a miracle happens here, the strike is on ( L.A. times )...
my motorman unfortunately for me did not work today maybe it was his saturday off or he is getting ready for the strike. I did not cry I took it like a man took many shots then went over to persing square & rode ANGELS FLIGHT & digital photographed it all the way into the early night hopefully you will see the results soon as i can load them into my ""yahoo photos"
htttp://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
sometime in the early hours i will load them sunday for sure !!
i will meet that motorman again soon & still will get off the railfan
video dont worry about that !! thankz salaam allah
sometimes, i have read here that in the future the subways here in new york will have very little human control...i personally don't believe that will be so... the human element has been part of my fascination for transit... if there wasn't a motorman inside the cab when i was a kid, i don't think i would have become fascinated by operating the train... i would have had no basis to imagine that the door handle was like the controller... if there hadn't been identifiable sounds connected with the train braking , i would not have had anything concrete to associate with slowing down... the visible signals told me whether there were trains ahead or whether we were going to switch over...
i am comparing in my mind trains to elevators... i can visualize the elevator operator in an apartment building on the corner of 7th and w.16th street who really was a master of operating the old otis elevators... those cars had a circular hand control that regulated speed and direction... getting the car to stop level with the floor landing was a skill... this man could really come to a smooth stop level with the floor rather gracefully... plus he carried himself in a very quiet but very aware way... it's strange, i don't remember anyone ever saying that they wanted to grow up and become an elevator operator...
anyway... would there be as much fascination for you, if the trains had no need of a human operator?
Seems like you and I are the only subtalkers up and reading at this ungodly hour. I've always had a fascination for large, complex systems. The analogy of elevator vs subway train is often used but not really valid in my mind. Elevators don't switch shafts or run one behind the other, etc. I personally feel that the human element of control is essential, however to maintain subfan interest. After all, how many would really be interested if somewhere in the back of their minds, there was not that hopew that they would be called upon to take control of a train, throw a switch or even open the doors. It would be like having a set of electric trains where we turn them on and a computer set the speed, direction and route without any intervention. how long would that hold our interest?
The human element is always necessary, becuase no system is 100% predicatble. BART is San Francisco has been computer controlled since its inception, but to this day they pay t/o's to sit in the front of the train and do nothing. They do look down the train in stations and press the "Door Open" button to extend the stop, but that's about it. I don't know how long I could take a job like that. I do know that as a kid growing up out there, it was still fascinating to look out the front window of the trains. Perhaps it was the novelty of computer control that added to the element of danger...
That's why I think PATCO is the coolest system. The trains can be run under %100 ATO, but the driver is free at any time (and in some circumstances must) to manualize operation for as long as he wants.
Unfortuneatly, emergency manual operation on BART means 25mph max. not very feasible, but then their computers were never supposed to crash.
;-)
dave
I agree with Steve about the need for the human element in railfanning, otherwise there would be no interest in trains besides a technological curiosity.
Yes, having a T/O behind the controls is essential for "making the connection" with the fans.
BTW, heypaul, thanks for a very thoughtful AND on topic post.
Doug aka BMTman
BTW, heypaul, thanks for a very thoughtful AND on topic post.
dougie... are you implying that my posts are not always very thoughtful AND on topic posts?
come to think of it, they usually are not...
No. You are thoughtful in your posts, even if they are on-topic AND asinine.
Good to see we're steering clear of the mud-slinging going on in other posts here...
The secret most people don't understand is to ignore posts by people with handles that have reputations to annoy others. That way your life here at SubTalk will be much freer of stress and all the related nonsense that goes with it.
Doug aka BMTman
Good point. I haven't even attempted to read one of Mr. LA Transit System's posts in almost 6 months simply because I know that I can't understand what he writes. Because of this you will never see me in one of those "running-fight" threads. Out of sight, out of mind.
heypaul, I am starting to worry about you
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm a fan of subways for entirely practical reasons. They provide inexpensive, environmentally benign transportation for large nubmers of people, and are the only way a huge number of people can gather in one place without a massive traffic jam.
I admit that there are few elevator fans. But if automatic operation were cheaper and otherwise operationally better (a big if), I'm in favor. I doubt where will ever be no one on a train, however, regardless of the system of control.
Several airports use shuttle trains between terminals that are completely ATO, without a T/O sitting in a cab somewhere. Dallas/Fort Worth, Orlando, London Gatwick come to mind immediately.
That would be horrible. Driving a train takes skill, and computers just don't do as good a job of it as people. Computers also do not pay attention to people on the tracks and other nostandard conditions like that.
Right now they don't but give them another dozen years or so train operated computers may be advanced enough to take over all functions of train operation,look how fast it took computers to reach the level they are now,this is only the tip of the iceberg....so to speak. but it wouldnt be any more fun i agree.
There are motion sensors and obstruction sensors (like radar).
Yup....
And some big ol' rat sat on the track
and the train it would not move.
During my formative railfan years, I've never paid attention or cared how, why or where a train was operated.
My interest would not wane, instead it would pique, as I find that my interest is largely technological, the higher the technology, the more interesting it would be.
I'd still be a railfan. THe people mover at Hartsfield Airport is one of my favorite transit systems of all time. It's ZPTO and because of that makes it even cooler to know why it works. I guess I'm more technical about subways than about people. Probably explains why I would rather explore subways alone than with groups of people.
Not that I'm anti-socal, I would love to go on a Subtalk fieldtrip if I could.
The Branford Electric Railway Association gained a new member this Saturday with the addition of our very own Andee. He signed up as the 3/4 Ton crew got busy getting dirty with 6688.
With the very important Columbus Day weekend approaching for BERA's "Autumn in New York" weekend, Andee will be in a great position to test drive a SMEE, R-9 or Gate car.
Good for you Andee! Welcome Aboard!
Doug aka BMTman
Alright. Andee's the man!
-Stef
1. There is now a GT on the Manhattan bound track heading into Utica Ave :(:(:(:(:(
2. This weekend, it seems the 4 will be making local stops in both directions between Utica and Atlantic due to the track work at Atlantic. According to the line by line section, this station (Atlantic) is to renovated from top to bottom. When is this to be completed? I know on the NL/Flat bound local track there are orange markings on the floor....
3. More 3 line strip maps are appearing on the 2000# cars. This time on 2012.
4. More black floors appearing on the R62's as well.....
3Train#2012Mike
There is also a New Timer on the Uptown No.6 Local track at Union Sq.
Another place to slow down !!
Yes and it looks like more will be comeing.
Any idea where ??
Have a nice day !!!
They just seem to pop up without notice .
Can you please keep us up to date. Thanks !!
Have a nice day !!
Hi folks,
I am still looking for an actual Canal St. station sign with the
Chinese characters, recently removed during the MTA construction on
that station. I would love even a picture of one! Can anyone help?
I know that one large sign remains at the J,M,Z platform. I am looking for an image of one of the smaller ones with one set of
characters under the words "Canal St" No questions asked.
The Official Name of the Station on the Manny Bridge Line is Broadway, Not Canal Street, even though they did put a wooden sign above it saying Canal Street, how it is now, I do not know, but it was opened as Broadway, since the trains ran under Canal St
A few months back there was a thread on a store
in NYC which was selling (or displaying)
authentic, vintage NYC Subway signs.
Does anyone recall the location of this store?
The streets "Houston" and "Canal" seem to be
best remembered as being part of the address.
Is there a store that sells real subway signs in Manhattan? (Besides
the T.M. Gift Shop?
Hi, I want to know something about R142 Trains if they will be tested on the #1/9,and #7 lines if so when? Also why they are not testing R142s on the #5 lines I thought they were also purchase for the #5 line also?
Testing may ultimately be done on these lines but it's not generally planned for now - to the best of my knowledge. The highest priority is to begin to move cars into their fleets so that the #7 line can begin to receive it's new fleet of R-62As.
R-142/142A's on the 1/9???
.....we DON'T want 'em!!
PERFECTLY happy with the r-62A's on the homeline.
I logged onto Subtalk and I noticed that its changed! My feelings about the change aside I would like to know if our spiffy little SubTalk Graphic will come back at some point. I really liked it and it set the MB appart from the other web pages here at Nycsubway.org I now see that a railfan related banner ad is flashing in its stead, but can't there be room for both graphic and ad?
I noticed it also.
I noticed the change too. This commercialism has gone too far! In protest I am going to stop sending in my monthly check which helps Dave keep the Sub Talk board operating ....
(Oops, my accountant just told me we do not pay anything to use this board, I wonder how Dave is able to defray the expense of operating Sub Talk?)
Tom
Well, Dave's single, so this site is sort of like a wife for him... takes most of the money, gives a few thrills in return... :-)
(My apologies in advance to my dear wife, who will no doubt hear about this one from Anon_e_mouse Jr. or some other spy... and to all of the other wives out there!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't care about the non-profit banner ad. I just want the Subtalk graphic back. I can't believe that nobody else here cares about that graphic.
Well, if you'll notice, the BERA ad is more on the line of a public service announcement... the graphic is on www.nycsubway.org, not on www.bera.org (although it provides a direct link).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SubTALK ad : "Autumn in New York, October 8 & 9"
BERA Website: "Autumn in New York, October 7 & 8"
Which shall it be??
The BERA website is correct...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BERA member 2757
I took the graphic off for the duration of the time the ad will be there because with all of the things (graphic, ad, and text box) it seems that the real "content" is way too far down the page... Don't worry the Subtalk graphic logo will be back.
-Dave
p.s. I corrected the date, thanks for pointing it out.
I had a most pleasant visit to the Shoreline Trolley Museum on Saturday, courtesy of Thurston and Doug BMT Man. I met them at the Pelham Bay Parkway station of the 6 line at 8AM and off we went. It is a wonderful place, I heartly advise everyone to visit and become a member (I did). I even did a little work on 6688 it is theraputic, to say the least. Took a ride on a trolley with Doug at the controls (yes, he is a maniac 8->). Took over 30 pictures and cannot wait to go up there again. I had to leave a little earlier than the rest due to an engagement I had in the city (yes Doug and Thurston I got over my tuna poisoning). So, Thurston took me to the New Haven station. It was my first ride on an M-3 cosmopolitian class Metro north car, love the coat hooks but, other than that, on the inside they are just like standard M class cars. New Haven Station is a very nicely restored station. Thanks to all involved for a most lovely day. See y'all for "Autumn in New York".
Also much thanks to David Pirmann, who, without, none of this would have been possible!
Peace,
ANDEE
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[I had a most pleasant visit to the Shoreline Trolley Museum on Saturday, courtesy of Thurston and Doug BMT Man.]
And don't forget Lou from Brooklyn (don't tell me the tuna poisoning affected the brain cells? ;-)
Glad you joined us Andee. Now I guess we qualify as the 7/8 Ton Crew!
Later,
Doug
>>>Glad you joined us Andee. Now I guess we qualify as the 7/8 Ton Crew! <<<
Very Funny, I thought I would make it a full ton. Thanks again! It was also nice meeting JEFF H and that young lady (whose name I cannot recall).
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm glad you came up. You'll love Autumn in NY. That was the one event that got me hooked as a volunteer with the BERA folks.
-Stef
Which area in NYC has subway stations surrounded by the most NYC Housing projects?
JUNIUS Street, on the #3 line! Old-style housing blocks to the north and new-style freestanding town houses and homes to the south, but these DON'T count as projects as they are mostly privately owned.
wayne.
Adjacent to the station, one would find the Van Dyke Houses. To the west of them are the Samuel J. Tilden Houses and Brownsville Housing, with Langston Hughes Houses to the north of those. A bit to the north are the Seth Low Houses and Howard Housing.
Yes, not too far from where I live. Junius and Rockaway Ave on the 3 are surrounded by projects. If you drive on Blake Ave and MG Blvd, there are 4 projects on each corner of the block. However, there are senior residents projects in that area as well.....
Honorable Mention:
J line: Between Chauncey and Eastern Pkwy.
2 line: Jackson Ave
G line: Myrtle Ave(Marcy Projects-Rapper Jay-Z)
Q line: 21St-Queensbridge (Queensbridge Projects-Rappers Mobb Deep and Nas)
2 line: Newkirk Ave (Vanderveer Projects)
B line: Bay 50St (Marlboro Projects)
That is all for now
Vanderveer isn't city housing, its privately owned.
Right, and the proper name is Vanderveer Estates (sounds fancy, but the housing ain't :-)
Doug aka BMTman
My grandmother lived there (not the one I always talk about by the Sea Beach but my other one) in the 60's when it was predominately Jewish. I understand Barbra Streisand grew up there.
Yes, not too far from where I live. Junius and Rockaway Ave on the 3 line are surrounded by projects. If you drive on Blake Ave and MG Blvd, there are 4 projects on each corner of the block. However, there are senior residents projects in that area as well.....
Honorable Mention:
J line: Between Chauncey and Eastern Pkwy.
2 line: Jackson Ave
G line: Myrtle Ave(Marcy Projects-Rapper Jay-Z)
Q line: 21St-Queensbridge (Queensbridge Projects-Rappers Mobb Deep and Nas)
2 line: Newkirk Ave (Vanderveer Projects)
B line: Bay 50St (Marlboro Projects)
That is all for now
3TM
There's the 1/9 at 225 Street.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
There's only one project there: Marble Hill.
Coney Island has the greatest concentration of public and publicly subsidized (mostly Mitchell-Lama and senior) housing in the United States.
The Dyckman Houses located on Nagle Avenue and Dyckman Street on the Broadway IRT line
Once again, that's only one project, not a sea of project as exists in many areas (like Junius Street).
While I do not know the name of the project, there is a very large housing project near the 174/175 Street station on the "D" concourse line. The train always empties at this stop (especially the front cars)
Peace,
ANDEE
Which area in NYC has subway stations surrounded by the most NYC Housing projects?
The current Queensbridge terminal of the 63rd Street line is in the midst of the Queensbridge Houses
The F line East Broadway stop is surrounded by projects at the Rutgers Street exit/entrance. You have the Rutgers houses and Pike street houses as well.
Another one is the Marcy/Flushing stop which is right at the corner os the Marcy houses.
I'm afraid to ask why you would ask that question.
I'm just curious and wondering if there is any corelation between violence in the subway system and New York City Housing projects?
As I've said before in answer to such questions, any answers put forth on this board are based on opinion, and only on opinion, and are therefore useless. For official answers to such questions, contact the New York Police Department.
David
I'm just curious and wondering if there is any corelation between violence in the subway system and New York City Housing projects?
I don't know for sure. While some of the stations in areas with many housing projects - Junius Street comes to mind - have a reputation as being dangerous, that might well be because they're in poorer areas, not areas with many projects per se. My hunch is that there might be some relationship, but it's nothing overwhelming.
Thanks Peter, I was just talking to someone about those two topics violence/subway system and the neighbourhoods they were in. Some police precincts in the early 90 like in ENY and Harlem had over 100 homicides a year. We were debating how this affected the subway.
Some past postings on this subject stated that some stations were great ambush places for gangs and thugs like Livonia and Myrtle aves.
Wondering if there are many projects in thoses areas?
Why is it that NYC subway cars sqeal so much while braking? The new subway systems built in 60s and 70s like BART, WMATA, MARTA, etc. quietly come to a stop. So obviously, since the 60s , the technology has been there for quieter brakes. Why weren't the R40s and all the orders after installed with better brakes? They didn't even have to have regenentive brakes like other systems. Does the R142 brake quietly? How about other old systems, like Boston and Chicago? I've been to Boston twice, but I can't remember if the Red and Orange lines had loud brakes.
I gotta admit, I love the sound of squealing brakes on subways and loud subways in general, but then again, I don't have to hear them everyday.
The R142's brake a lot quieter than redbirds and the R62. I think it uses air brakes, which makes it a lot quieter.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Normally NYCT cars are slowed to between 5 & 7 MPH by dynamic brake. After that, the lockout magnet valve opens, allowing air into the brake cylinder, applying a pneumatic brake - just as the dynamic brake fades. The only screaching brake should be the last turn and a half of the wheel. However, if the propulsion package is not operating properly (ie: Dead motor or improper brake sequence)there is no dynamic brake current generated. This prevents the lockout magnet from locking out the cylinder air. Therefore you have a straight pneumatic brake. This causes the brake shoes to overheat and glaze over. After a while, they begin to screach.
Is that true of all cars currently running?
Is what true? I made a number of factual statements in my posting!
Sorry, I spaced. (_I_ knew what I was talking about!)
I meant to ask if all cars currently running use dynamic braking.
I've seen a T/O on a Slant 40 who was entering 42nd street/6 ave fairly fast apply the brakes gradually to full, then let go of the power handle, sending the train into emergency (I think) then put the handle back down and recharge(?) the brakes, so by the end of the platform we made a smooth stop. Were dynamics and air both being used there? Was something happening that I wasn't aware of?
In the scenario you describe, the brake handle was in full
service when the controller handle was released, therefore the
deadman would not have activated. I couldn't tell you why
the motorman did that...perhaps he needed to scratch at precisely
that moment.
Dynamic brakes are used for service braking. They fade out at
about 7 MPH, and then the friction brakes come in. In emergency
braking, the dynamics are disabled and it's all friction.
As I recall, it did seem as if we slowed down more rapidly when the handle went up.
It seems weird that the dynamics would be taken out for emergency, a time when you'd want maximum deceleration.
I was on an R-46 yesterday, and listened for and heard the dynamics all the way down to almost the stop.
Are you sure the train went into emergency, or was it a small puff of air, most likely being expelled from the P2A pilot valve? If the train went into full emergency, there is no way the brakes could have been recharged. I think the penalty time on the SMEES are around 25 to 30 seconds for most modern cars. The R9 cars could recharge rather quickly after dumping, with penalties near the 10 second range. The penalty time is the waiting time mandated before attempting a recharge, by RTO school car. I am assuming this time is to allow any back pressure in the Emergency Vent valves to deplete, so that it will close upon receiving the initial charge of new brake pipe air.
Having the dynamic brakes cut out during emergency braking has
always been a feature of SMEE as applied to NYCT equipment
all the way back to the R10s, and, if I'm not mistaken, the same
principle is used on the R142s.
This is in notable contrast to PCC-derived designs, which generally
supply friction, dynamic and magnetic track braking during emergency.
I've never found any documentation as to why the design is this
way. I can speculate that the intent is to provide a fail-safe
pneumatic means of stopping the train in case of catastrophic
trainline failure that results in a run-away power application.
The loss of brake pipe pressure opens up the emergency contactor
on each car which effectively disables the switch group.
Air is also delivered directly to the brake cylinders, bypassing
the lockout magnet valve. While in theory it would be possible
to modify SMEE cars so that the dynamics continue to function and
the air brakes come on as well, in practice this would result in
an emergency brake rate so high as to cause either sliding or
passenger injuries.
While in theory it would be possible
to modify SMEE cars so that the dynamics continue to function and
the air brakes come on as well, in practice this would result in
an emergency brake RATE SO HIGH as to cause either sliding or
passenger injuries.
In other words, the TA tampered with the EMERGENCY brakes to avoid sliding or injuries.
The TA never tampered with the emergency brake and it's somewhat irresponsile for you to imply that it had. As stated in Jeff's post, the emergency brake is the equivalent of the maximum dynamic, a bit over 3 MPH/Sec. If we had air over dynamic in an emergency brake application it would stop the train at approximately 7 MPH/Sec. People would be thrown through the car at that rate, causing significant injuries (not to mention significant equipment damage). You would have to admit that except in the case of an impending collision, there is no need to stop that quickly - ever. Normally BIEs are mistakes. At best a pulled cord or a released Deadmans to prevent the injury or death of one person. What sense does it make to potentially injure several hundred people to save one?
If you look at the Schematics for the Westinghouse and GE SCM controllers, you'll find dynamic drops out by design in emergency. If you look further, you'll find that PATH, NJT, Metro-North and LIRR all do the same. It's hard to understand why you'd assume that because 1 vehicle design (the PCC) is correct while all the other designs are incorrect. Perhaps if you look at brake adhesion rates for a PCC car compared to heavy rail vehicle,you'll see that your assumptions are incorrect.
I'm not asking for a 7 MPHPS deceleration, I doubt there would any capability of doing that considering the weight. I'm saying why call it an emergency brake application if it isn't. The R10s had the capability of throwing people through the windows because it had an "EMERGENCY BRAKE APPLICATION!" Thats what you need in an emergency, not some spruced up version of full service. Otherwise, by the old grandfather rules of the system, we would not be advised to write in our G2s after a 12-9 that we used the emergency position of the valve. We would be told to use the full service. I would not recommend the TA use air over dynamic in emergency, and only quoted one section of the previous post, not summing up the entire posting and for injury's sake 100 people can get over bumps and bruises where the soul pushing up daisies will be missed a hell of a lot longer. We might even have a few extra R42s to play with too. In general, emergency braking isn't what it used to be so why bother calling it emergency. Thats why I used tampering to desrcibe the quote.
How fast can a unmodified PCC stop in emergency in terms of Miles Per Second?
I was on a NJT train when it went into emergency at 70mph. The stop was pretty smooth too.
I'll answer the follow-up question of Rob King first to confuse
everyone: The PCC spec calls for up to 9.0 MPHPS braking rate
in emergency with all 3 modes (dynamic, air, track magnet)
in full effect.
I'll have to review my basic railway mechanics, but I don't think
maximum accel/de-accel rates are affected by vehicle weight when
all of the wheels in the train are producing tractive/braking
effort, at least on level track. Adhesion is expressed as the
percentage of weight on the wheel that is available as tractive
force before slipping happens, and a typical design figure is 20%.
Since acceleration is force divided by mass and since the value
of "g" is 32 ft/s**2 or about 22 MPH/s, this comes out to about
4 MPHPS maximum adhesion, which is the max accel/brake rate of
a PCC. PCCs obtain the higher emergency rate with magnetic track
brakes which are not worried about wheel sliding.
I can't think of any rapid transit operations that used track brakes
except the Chicago PCC-style cars (like the 6000s). Maybe someone
has some other examples. Those things can cause problems on long
trains especially around switches.
Back to ENGINE BRAKE's point: the lack of dynamics in emergency
braking was not "tampering" on the part of the TA. SMEE always
worked that way, even the R10s. We had a long discussion over a
year ago along with Erik, TrainDude et al about brake shoe
curves. Iron shoes have a curve that exhibits a much sharper rise
in friction coefficient as speed decreases. Since cylinder
pressure remains constant during the entire emergency brake
application it follows that braking rate will increase more sharply
as the train slows down with iron shoes as compared against
composition shoes. The emergency braking rate spec, which is often
quoted as 3.2 MPHPS, is either taken at a specific speed point or
represents an average over a typical emergency stop from maximum
speed. In either case, that number alone is not an accurate means
of comparing emergency stop distances at various initial speeds.
You've raised some valid points.
The crux of the matter is whether acceleration/braking rates in excess of 3.2 mph/s would cause serious passenger injuries. I believe that the PCC research showed that 4.5 mph/s could be tolerated as service rates, provided certain criteria regarding the uniformity of the acceleration/braking were met.
One of the most important consequences of going to the higher rate would be to increase the number of trains per hour from its present theoretical maximum of between 43-47 to the 55-60 range.
There are many conductive surface coatings that could be applied to the wheels and rails that would overcome the adhesion problem that you mentioned.
Of course, one must be careful about metrics. The most important metric is the stopping distance vs. the initial velocity. It would be nice, if the braking rate were uniform so that this relation could be expressed as a single parameter. One might hope that the limitations for applying such a parameter be documented, if deviations from a uniform rate are important.
Yes, the ERPCC found that high acceleration/braking rates were
not uncomfortable to passengers so long as jerk rate was limited.
The PCC cars did this to some extent, although as they aged that
parameter was not well-controlled.
The NYCT fleet could handle higher acceleration and braking rates
both in service and emergency. The TA has taken the first step
in _finally_ using distributed/microprocessor control of traction
and braking.
The cars are no where near the adhesion limit now. However, you
are quite right that in the past few years great developments have
been made in friction modifier gels which are applied to the
top of the rail and/or the wheel treads.
I have never seen an explicit specification for what "emergency
braking rate" means. It is always given as a plain acceleration
figure, e.g. 3.2 mphps, without further qualification. As you
said, the real question is stopping distance versus initial speed,
and in particular, stopping distance from the design maximum speed
on a particular stretch of track versus signal tripping distance.
Well, we know how that one turned out.
The new fleet will have the same acceleration/braking rates as the old, from what I've read.
There would be routing problems to take full advantage of significantly greater acceleration rates. A line essentialy runs as fast as its slowest component will permit, if regularly scheduled service is to be maintained. Perhaps, this is why the TA is planning to weaken its service regularity metric.
So, they should dedicate the new cars for the 1, 6 or 7 which do not interact with other lines or replace the 2,3,4,5. So, running tests on the 2 and 6 does not bode well. The most crowded IRT lines are the Flushing followed by the Lex Ave Expresses.
Do you think the TA could be as innovative as the BMT in mixing fast and slow acceleration trains on the same track? I can't think of any other way they could have taken advantage of the Multi's high performance and limited numbers other than the 14th St Expresses.
My GP-35 book says that with dynamic braking on, the throttle becomes "notchless" and controls a rheostat, which in turn varies the field for control of dynamic braking "power."
How are the dynamics varied on TA equipment? Is there some variable device run off the air? Or is it constant.
The GE SCM controller uses something referred to as a DBRT (Dynamic Brake Rate transducer). Simply, this device samples the Straight Air demand for brake. it then sends a signal to the current regulator which then regulated the amount of dynamic current needed to provide the equivalent of the air brake demanded. During this time, the air brake is locked out by the lock-out magnet. On Westinghouse, the component names are different but it works essentially the same way.
Train dude hit the nail on the head with that one. And yes Dave, this can happen to any car in the system.
The T has some majorly nasty squealing (or at least did when I lived there in the late 80s/early 90s. Among the worst is the Orange line in the "new" tunnel from Chinatown to Back Bay/South End, and where the tracks come out and parallel the Mass Pike between NE Medical Center and BB/SE.
Per official bulletin, GHoes on sale 7am on 9-18-00. Stations are **not** grouped, but rather listed as shown ont he bulletin which has one glaring typo which I'll show by asterisks (***) after the lines at that station.
As usual, a station might not get the cards even though it is on the list, and a nearby station not on the list might get cards due to supervisor transferring of cards to a booth. As usual, go to the mai9n booth at a station to ensure you get the card.
The List:
86---B,C
81---B,c
72---B,C
59--A,C,E,1
42---A,C,E
Jay Street--A,C,F
Hoyt/Schermerhorn--A,C,G
5th av--E,F
53rd st--E,F *****
51st street--6
5th av--- N,R
57---N,R
49---N,R
86---4,5,6
77---6
68---6
Grand Central---4,5,6,7,S
33---6
28---6
23---6
86---1,9
79---1,9
66---1,9
Clark St---23.
DeKalb---B,D,N,R
In a historical article, Newsday mentions that the Steinway tunnel was built for the LIRR. It's obviously impossible. There are also other interesting errors in the article, like using numbered streets, but also using Vernon Avenue and old sequential house numbers. And of course, they also have the nerve to mention that the city was hostile to the IRT in 1907 (and what were the Dual Contracts about, a sneaky way to weaken the private companies by banning fare hikes?).
>>>In a historical article, Newsday mentions that the Steinway tunnel was built for the LIRR. It's obviously
impossible. There are also other interesting errors in the article, like using numbered streets, but also using
Vernon Avenue and old sequential house numbers. <<<
I don't see any mention of "Steinway tunnels" or subways in the article, which is about tunnel construction for the Long Island Rail Road.
(BTW the Steinway tunnels carry the #7 between Manhattan and Queens and were originally for trolleys)
www.forgotten-ny.com
It does mentioned that construction for the tunnels for which construction was stopped because of the explosion resumed and it became the Flushing line. It is true that the Steinway Tunnel was delayed by an explosion. So it implies that the Steinway Tunnel was for the LIRR to go to Grand Central.
Kevin, who was the Nimrod who wrote it?
Doug aka BMTman
OK, here's what it says abt trolley tunnels...
>>>Work on the tunnel doomed by the 1892 explosion resumed in 1905, after the Interborough Rapid Transit Co. bought it as a link in a 41-mile subway system in Queens and Manhattan.
The first streetcar rolled through the completed tunnel in September, 1907, but it emerged to find a changed political climate: New York State was fighting the IRT's monopoly, and refused to sanction the tunnel's opening.
It lay unused until June, 1915, by which time the city had bought it and the IRT had agreed to operate it. The tunnel, which was a powerful force in the development of Queens, now carries the IRT's Flushing Line subway trains. <<<
So the aborted 1892 LIRR tunnel did NOT become the Steinway trolley tunnel and ultimately the #7 tunnels?
www.forgotten-ny.com
But how could it have been planned as an LIRR tunnel?
That's where my beef (or actually for me, pork) lies.
Gotta read it with a close eye. It says that work on the Steinway tunnels ceased in 1892 and resumed again in a slightly different form in 1905, under the control of Belmont ("Mr. IRT.") The later Pennsylvania (East River) tunnels were a separate project, according to the article, work began in 1904 and Long Island trains began using it in 1910. None of this is incorrect. See http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/steinway/.
Or am I missing something?
Mark
It's implying that the Steinway Tunnels were originally planned to be used by the LIRR.
Not really. You're making that implication. I dont see it there.
Eighty-seven pounds of dynamite, which workmen had been thawing in a steambox, had exploded in a vacant lot at Vernon Avenue and 50th Avenue. The blast wrecked several buildings, set fire to others on Jackson Avenue, and postponed a direct rail link between Manhattan and Long Island for almost 20 years.
The explosion ruined the New York and Long Island Rail Road Co., which was using the dynamite to blast a tunnel under the East River to carry the Long Island Rail Road tracks into Grand Central Terminal. The 100-foot-deep shaft and its short length of tunnel were abandoned for almost 13 years.
Is that so hard to understand?
What's the problem here? In 1892, the ancestor of the LIRR wasn't yet part of the PRR. Pennsylvania Station didn't even exist yet. It wasn't even a thought. Grand Central did, and would have made an ideal terminal for a line entering Manhattan at 42nd Street, as the Steinway tunnels were set to (and eventually did).
Mark
But the Steinway tunnels are too narrow. I doubt they would have made them narrower in later plans.
Why not? The plans changed significantly between initial construction and the time the tunnels were completed. They even changed once work was done. You're assuming that what stands today is what was planned for the railroad, which is an assumption that you just can't make. I have provided you with facts and references that support Newsday's statement, but you haven't presented any support for your position aside from hunches based on what you know of today's system.
I wouldn't put such a mistake past Newsday, but I don't see it in this particular instance.
Mark
I reread the summary on this site.
It says (and I am willing to believe it more than Newsday) that only surveys were done for the LIRR project. By the time ground was broken and the explosion occured, the LIRR project was gone. That would still make talk of the explosion more or less meaningless to the article.
Pigs;
I am having difficulty understanding what your nit pick is in this instance. Is it because it was another company rather than the LIRR who started construction on the tunnel?
It seems to me that if the tunnel builders were building the tunnel with the expectation that it would eventually contain LIRR tracks to Manhattan, it is fair to say that the tunnel was being built for the LIRR. (As opposed to built by the LIRR which would be incorrect).
Tom
See my response to Mark, it couldn't have been built for the LIRR.
It could have been built by the LIRR, but for use by a different service (which I doubt, but it could be possible).
If the bold text read as "to carry the The New York and ..", the sentence would be more accurate. The NY&LIRR, and the LIRR, were not the same entity, AFAIK.
--Mark
If the LIRR was not involved with the construction, as is most likely the case (and what I am trying to say), then the whole first paragraph of the article has nothing to do with the rest of it.
The article was about bring the LIRR into Manhattan. If this has nothing to do with the LIRR, then why did the author include that whole section, unless he can't tell the difference.
Without even reading your message, I can answer your question: YES!!!
Newsday has to be the lamest excuse for a newspaper I've ever read. There's no point in getting it if you don't have a puppy to train.
That would be considered cruelty to animals. A better use would be making scratchittijerks lick the newsprint.
Without reading the subject article,I'd normally make no judgement but based on the editorial staff, lead by managing editor, les payne, the answer to the question posed by the thread title is a resoundingYES
I read on the Calendar today is when the IND opened the 8th Avenue Subway. September 10,1932. If my math is right, thats 70 years old. Looks good for its age!
It's 2002?
Come on, Pigs, cut him a break; it's difficult to count that high when one has only 23 fingers and toes. :)
He was using "new math".
>>> when one has only 23 fingers and toes <<<
23??
I've heard of guys who had to be stark naked to count to 21, but never 23.
Tom
Tom, what surrounds #21?
>>> Tom, what surrounds #21? <<<
Sorry, I do not understand the question. My previous post may be more clear if you have heard the expression that "some people have to take off their shoes and socks to count to twenty."
Tom
Tom,
I had a classmate in college who was born in a DP camp in Germany in 1946. His astute Polish mother was adamant about being on the Allied side of the line when the war ended, so she walked across Poland in the winter of '44-'45 to stay to the west of the German/Russian front. George was conceived during this trip (father was German, Polish, or Russian).
Upon his birth in the DP camp, American doctors told her that his extra finger was not unusual and that it should be routinely cut off. She refused to give informed consent, saying "He may need it some day". She eventually emigrated to the US and got a factory job in South Jersey.
I've lost contact with George, but the last I heard, he was a biochemistry professor in a Philadelphia university.
And the extra finger kept him from getting drafted out of grad school during the Vietnam war.
[>>> when one has only 23 fingers and toes <<<
23??
I've heard of guys who had to be stark naked to count to 21, but never 23.
Tom ]
The "23" was actually meant to be considered as a mathematically challenged number.
C'mon now Pigs, did you ever take logic in school? He said, "If my math is right" which makes it a true statement no matter what age he gave!!
2000-1932=68
They always said that "if" was the biggest word in the english language.
Today's Times had yet another article about workfare. This one featured a woman who actually liked the work experience, but then got booted out of workfare (while maintaining her welfare benefits) because she was on methadone therapy. Some city agencies will not accept workfare people if they're receiving methadone. Transit's policy wasn't mentioned. Anyway, this woman had to get a court order allowing her to participate in workfare.
While the overall tone of the article was positive - I have to admire this woman's spirit and hope it works out for her - there was another nugget of information that set a much darker tone. It turns out that only 20% of NYC's 32,000 methadone recipients are working. Why is that so bad? Well, the answer lies in the whole point behind methadone therapy. Methadone is no cure for heroin addiction, in fact it's an extremely addictive drug itself. It is intended, however, as a way for heroin addicts to function in society. Receiving methadone satisfies the craving for heroin but leaves the recipients reasonably clear-minded and capable of working. But in NYC, naturally enough, the people on methadone don't work, in that sense going against the whole point of their (taxpayer-financed) therapy.
As Cindy Adams would say, Only in New York, kids, only in New York.
Here’s the Times’ workfare/methadone article
link for those interested.
WHEEEE!!!,Here we go again!!!
I know that at least some people on methadone work "off the books" - for example, as livery drivers. How widespread the practice is, I can't say, but it is not impossible that there are more methadone recipients doing that than there are holding "official" jobs.
As long as there is a safety net firmly in place & strictly enforced for those who are not able to work this type of forced required tasks. Exemptions for those who cannot handle this etc.. Employment rights union protections & being hired with medical & other benifits & all total union protection. & not being used for ""union busting"" by removing the current union paid subway janitors-cleaners etc..
Not some wage slavery situation ""race to the bottom" but true on the job training & advancement with a solid permanent future, not a run around the bush flim flam !!!& lets just throw them off food stamps & welfare to satisfy our right wing hatred of the less fortunate !!.
As long as there is a safety net firmly in place & strictly enforced for those who are not able to work this type of forced required tasks. Exemptions for those who cannot handle this etc.. Employment rights union protections & being hired with medical & other benifits & all total union protection. & not being used for ""union busting"" by removing the current union paid subway janitors-cleaners etc..
Not some wage slavery situation ""race to the bottom" but true on the job training & advancement with a solid permanent future, not a run around the bush flim flam !!!& lets just throw them off food stamps & welfare to satisfy our right wing hatred of the less fortunate !!..
Every once in a while people on this board complain about Oyster Bay Line service. Usually I disagree but I just realized something about the weekend E/B scheduling on the Oyster Bay Line that doesn't make real sense:
Every 2 hours during the afternoon and evening hours theres an Oyster Bay bound train that leaves Jamaica alongside a Ronkonkoma Train. The Ronkonkoma train leaves Penn at 12 min after the hour and connects with the OB train at Jamaica. (The Bklyn connection which goes to Far Rockaway leaves Flatbush at 10 after the hour) Although both trains are scheduled to leave Jamaica a few minutes apart they usually leave together, the Ronk. train on track 7, the OB on track 8. The Ronknkoma train takes the lead with the OB train switching behind it. The Ronkonkoma train stops at New Hyde Park with the Ronkonkoma non-stop to Mineola. However the Oyster Bay train in reality crawls behind the Ronkonkoma train and is scheduled to arrive at Mineola 5 min later. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for the Oyster Bay train to go first?? At the time the train now reaches Mineola it could be as far as Albertson if it left first!!! I know diesels have worse pickup but I doubt that's the reason as its nonstop between Jamaica & Mineola and only has to pick up once out of Jamaica. My gut feeling is that it has to do with switching at Nassau Tower just E/O Mineola Station. That switch is like the Myrtle/Bway switch on the BMT as a train has to cross the opposite direction track at grade.
[The Ronkonkoma train stops at New Hyde Park with the Ronkonkoma non-stop to Mineola. ]
As if my post wasn't confusing enough, here's a correction to a mistake I just noticed:
The Ronkonkoma train stops at New Hyde Park with the Ronkonkoma Oyster Bay train non-stop to Mineola.
SO THATS why its so slow. We claw through several stations at a snail's pace. Is that the reason. Its doesn't sound logical. Here is what I think.
Ronkonkoma train stops at Mineola and picks-up release passangers. Another train heading to Jamaica passes by. 5 minutes later OB train arrives in Mineola. Passes over switch. If the OB came first, it would have to wait at the station until the city bound train passed. That would hold up the line. Or maybe more people take the Ronkonkoma line.
Whats with the long headaways on diesel lines?
That must be the reason. Using Mineola ever since I started driving in 1971 (I live in East Meadow) I think I'm familiar with the interlocking. They always seem to hold the westbound train E/O Nassau Tower to let the E/B Oyster Bay train switch so I guess they wanted the Oyster Bay train to get to Mineola later when its clear. However it just seems silly for both trains to leave Jamaica together with the one stopping at New Hyde Park going first ahead of the non stop train. That would be analogous to having both the Brighton Express and Locals on the same track from Brighton Beach to Prospect Park with the express behind the local.
The new C-3s are pretty quick. Good pickup too.
The old cunkers are the worst.
Not to nit pick (well ya, to nit pick), C3 is the designation for the new bi-level coach. These cars are unpowered so they have very bad "pickup" as you say >G
Not to nit pick (well ya, to nit pick), C3 is the designation for the new bi-level coach. These cars are unpowered so they have very bad "pickup" as you say
Unpowered or not, they'd still out-accelerate any R-68 :-)
I write this from the Business Class car of AMTRAK ACELA Regional #135, the 1:00 departure from Boston to Washington, DC; I am only going as far as NYC. I boarded the train at Route 128, scheduled for 1:20pm. I arrived at the station at 1:05, and by 1:15, could see the headlights in the distance. However, a few minutes later, the headlights stopped flashing and apparent motion stopped. About 10 minutes later, I could see other lights in the distance. The station announcer said that the MBTA South Attleboro local would arrive first, and for AMTRAK passengers to "stand by." The commuter train came and went; finally the AMTRAK train arrived at 1:50, 30 minutes late. On-board, I asked the conductor what the problem was. He responded that two children had been able to gain access to the electric substation just north of Route 128, and were shocked with 25000v AC -- last he heard they were being taken to the hospital.
We proceeded southbound, and in a few minutes, were passed by an ACELA Express trainset heading northbound on a test run. We switched to track 2 (northbound track) for a while, to pass the MBTA service, then returned to track 1 for the run through Connecticut.
Business class service is about $20 more each way than coach, and provides roomier seats, electric outlets, free newspapers (hey, that's $1.50 for a Sunday Boston Globe!) and free non-alcoholic beverages. On my trip, there were no cellphone screamers. Checking out some of the coach cars, I found a lot of families with children running up and down the aisles. So I would rate the extra few dollars worth it (hey - it was a business expense anyway :-)
I also asked the conductor about the ACELA Express service. He has already been trained and qualified on the equipment. He said that the expected start-up date is October 29, for one trip per day in each direction. He says the ride is fantastic, and that the tilting system takes all sense of motion out of the ride.
----------------
Epilogue: I'm now in NYC. We arrived 25 minutes late. Which is interesting, since we arrived at New Haven 45 minutes late! Somehow, we made up 20 minutes enroute from New Haven to Penn!
"Shocked" by 25kV? "Shocked" seems like putting it euphemistically.
Sounds like there's a pad in the schedule coming into Penn. Compare your time WB with the published EB running times.
"He says the ride is fantastic, and that the tilting system takes all sense of motion out of the ride."
Well those are those of who who enjoy a sence of motion in their ride. Nothing in the world beats standing in the rear vestabule of a Keystone train as it bounces along the jointed rail at 90mph. Or getting slammed into the wall of the rear vestabule as the Three Rivers rounds the Horseshoe Curve at 45 mph.
Whatever Dave (It ishis baby) did to Subtalk, I do not like it.
I dislike the large, red type at the top of every post. It's intrusuive, and clutters up the screen.
However he who pays the bills gets to play with the toys. We're just visiting.
The subject was always in big type at the top of the posts, it was just black colored and not in the very top... Plus it was about time the Subtalk messages displayed in the same format as the rest the site, which I changed ages ago...
Only problem is that the new look came direct from the Department of Redundacy Department. The new red line duplicates the line immediately below it, complete with the post number. (That's the line underlined top and bottom with the black lines.)
Like I said in my post, It's your house. You pay the bills, you get to play with the toys. We just visit.
Actually, you're right on that part; the other pages don't have the page title in the Nav Bar. However, it's not like it takes up any more room...
Now that I see what you did, I don't like it. While SubTalk never got the new look, it never needed it. The upper left corner is not a great place for the title of what I am reading. Please change it back!
Hmm you think burying the title of what you're reading 1/4th down the page in the middle of some other links and logos was better than having as the first thing on the top corner of the page? Really?
-Dave
Well I agree with him. Every time I load a message I instantly hit the scrol wheel and the title goes off the screen. I assume that most subtalkers do what I do and open messages in a new window cause the index takes too long to load. The new window is usually minimized and title quickly disappears. Given that I wouldn't mind it being in 2 places.
me neither. i ALWAYS open in new window....
Dave;
The title has been reduced in size today. Although it might take a few times to get used to the change, it looks pretty good to me.
Tom
So that's where the title went! I was wondering what had changed... Well, it's a bit more colorful, and long titles no longer take up half the page, so I guess its a plus...
For those who instantly scroll, maybe you could change the responses section to include the title in small print (Like responses to x, there are no responses to the message x).
In a response the subject is filled in the Subject field for you, which is right above where you're typing anyway.
Re: Same old board, Hate new look
if everyone just pastes the title in bold at the top of their post we can fix this problem!
yes we do. that ruled. this current format sucks.
Well, you're certainly free to create your own message board elsewhere in a format that you like. Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to be grateful to Dave for providing us with this forum, and we'll not nitpick the details. After all, it's his sandbox, we just get the privilege of playing here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Who is this 'we' you speak of? The format as is is just fine. Looks a lot cleaner, and it meshes with the rest of the site now.
-Hank
You'll get used to it. WebTV did a radical reformatting of everything, including e-mail and usenet postings. I HATED it, but now, 2 weeks later, after getting used to it, it doesn't seem so bad.
I disagree ! & I believe it is easier to read & use !!THANKS DAVE P.!
change is good !!
Yes, I like it too!
The line of smaller print is the "breadcrumbs", and it displays your progress from the home page. It is good practice. I will eventually be putting something like that on my Websites.
Elias
It loads WAY faster.
wayne
>>Same Old Board, Hate New Look
Whoaaa!! Talk about itching for
insta-heat with the boss..
Don't like the big font?
Dabble with your "Internet Font Preferences"
I do not think he can. I beleive he is using IE 1.0 or some such ancient software.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah, I'm a Netscape user (4.71). Only keep IE around to get to Windows Update, which Bill & Co. have thoughtfully prevented Netscape users from connecting to.
After I posted the second time, Dave made some more changes, and the big red type is now smaller, and the line below it no longer repeats the post number.
Congrats, BTW, for joining the 3/4 (or 7/8) Ton Crew. Volunteering at your local streetcar (or streetcar/subway) museum can be hard, dirty work, but it's all worth it. I've been involved at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum (BSM) for over thirty years, done everything from trackwork to restoration, overhead lines (everything from sorting line hardware to the arial act), to operating the cars, to training people to operate, to being part of the management of the place and everything else you do when your part of it..
In June, I hung a 30 year service pin on my uniform coat sleeve. That's 30 years of dealing with the cars and the people, both BSM and our many visitors. On the whole, it's been fun. Some times you just want to walk away from the whole thing, but I always come back.
And, what's REALLY neat, you'll make friendships that last a lifetime. I know, 'cause I've made a bunch between 1966 and today - and it's still going on!!
Don't say I never listen to complaints. ;-)
-Dave
and that's what makes nycsubway.org so great.
Btw, in the "remake", I noticed that the graphic on the right of the SubTalk pages is missing the www.nyc(graphic).org. Is that intentional, or an oops?
It's intentional. The whole rest of the site has just had the tokens part of the logo on the top of the pages for some time (please don't tell me you don't look at the rest of the site at all?) In fact, we had the "subway" tokens logo on the front page long before I used the name www.nycsubway.org....
-Dave
subway.k2nesoft.(something...org?)
-Hank :)
www.k2nesoft.com/subway
It still works!
As I was driving along the Van Wyck approaching Roosevelt Ave today 9/10/00 at around 4pm (please shoot me, I did not take the subways today!), I noticed a long consist of those #7 redbirds parked right over the expressway, with both sides of the doors open on a string of several cars on the Main St end. Unfortunately, I don't have a camera with me nor did I get a better look as to if they all belonged to the same train. Common sense tells us not to take pictures while driving (and use cellphones etc.) so I am wondering if anybody caught that today?
( ... or were some of you too busy shooting flamage at each other on this board about who works in McDees or something about a rats ass or KILLFILE this & KILLFILE that or some other postings? Shame on you!)
>>Common sense tells us not to take pictures while driving
Try running a video camera while driving!
Quite the simple thing.
One of my favorite home videos was when I rode the Skyline Drive through the Blue Ridge Mountains on my Harley with my wife videotaping while riding behind me. A couple hours of videotape of the back of my helmet. (Just kidding, actually it was pretty good!!)
Passengers do better than drivers at taking video. I sat at the front of the Disney World monorail last week and videotaped the ride from the Transit Center to Epcot (the new monorail section). It's a little-known secret that every trip allows 4 people to sit up front with the driver. So when I found out, woo hoo.... It's incredible how they fit that whole train system on such a slim elevated line of concrete.
I thought everybody knew that. I've got footage from the Transit Center to the Magic Kingdom through the Contemporary Resort that I shot in '91 with my then girlfriend (now wife).
Actually, what you saw was not so earth-shaking. I've never worked the #7 line but I'd assume that you saw a train layed up in the middle with a crew okaying it for service. Part of the process is to open the doors on both sides and check for inoperative door panels.
To all you people who love Coney Island, eat your heart out, 'cause
I RODE ON THE WONDER WHEEL TODAY!!!
...but I must confess, only on one of the stationary cars, not one of the sliding cars.
..Whoa! You mean Coney Island doesn't
obey the "park closes on Labor Day"
stip??
News to me!
Sunday wasn't Labor Day.
Peace,
ANDEE
[but I must confess, only on one of the stationary cars, not one of the sliding cars]
When we went on the trip to Heypaul's last month, I ended up going on one of the moving cars on the Wonder Wheel, and it scared the S**T out of me (ask Mark W). I can go on every type of upside-down loop-the-loop roller coaster and it doesn't bother me, but going on a ferris wheel terrifies me.
Sorry I went home from Paul's house that day and didn't continue on to Coney with you guys but I was leaving very early the next morning for Saratoga Springs and wanted to get some rest. Four year old Arthur still talks about Paul's motorman's cab!! By the way, going to the Coney Aquarium today a really nice LIRR engineer let 'lil Arthur hit the whistle coming out of the tunnel by Atlantic and Howard Av. Can you imagine how jealous I am of my own 4 year old??
I can go on every type of upside-down loop-the-loop roller coaster and it doesn't bother me, but going on a ferris wheel terrifies me.
Funny, I'm just the opposite - even the double spinning Ferris wheels don't bother me, but just watching a roller coaster gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those lines at the Roller Coasters give me the heebie jeebies.
Double-spining?
Oh, I hate them both. In fact, I hate anything that has a long, slow, uphill climb. Irrational fear of heights. And I've got a Season Pass for Great Adventure.
-Hank
On a stationary car? WHY BOTHER??
To get great pictures of Stillwell Ave, the El between Stillwell & West 8th, and trains approaching from Ocean Pkwy or Neptune Ave ... that's why!
--Mark
Gee, and I was looking at the ocean!
Which brings us back to my question: What makes the Wonder Wheel distinctive is the moving cars. Why would you go on a stationary car?
And we thought you were a real railfan ... looking at the ocean ... are you sure it wasn't the bikinis NEAR the ocean ?
Mr t__:^)
You want Bikinis? Go to Belmar. NJ or Wildwood, NJ. Yowsa!!
--Mark
Aw, come on ! Ya gotta go on the swinging cars. They rule !
Thanks to David Pirmann for the free publicity! You may already
know that the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum will hold the
Autumn in New York special event on October 7 and 8. The theme
of the event is Subway Series: baseball and transit in New York City.
The museum holds one of the finest collections of NY streetcars and
rapid transit cars. Many will be on display and operating during
this weekend. There's also an opportunity to receive a motorman's
lesson and take the controls of a subway car or streetcar along
the museum's 100-year-old railway. Several SubTalk regulars
availed themselves of this in years past and now they're addicted!
I'll be happy to answer questions, and/or you can get more information
at www.bera.org/specev.html
is there anything going on in the spring? is it possible to schedule something in the spring? a bunch of us are taking a whole trip to east coast then...
In 1999 we had a similar event in June. We did not schedule
that in 2000 because of other conflicting special events.
I don't know if it will be scheduled for 2001. Why don't
you email me around January or when you know your schedule
and we'll see what's up then.
You don't have to operate to have fun, or at least a very rewarding & educational time at one of the local museums ... yes this is going to be another story from Branford, but bare with me, you too may lean something.
This Saturday 5 members of the 3/4 Ton Crew came up to work on the R-17 (Sunday two more did the same). The SubSurf pasted his initiation test and so will become a member of the crew if he shows up again. We even had one of the old timers from the Bronx join us at the car to make seven. At 2 PM we lost Lou from Brookly who got a call to operate, and just happened to have a change of cloths in his bag.
After normal ops ended MOW Bill brought out the little line car & gabbed me to help with a clickty clack problem down the line. We bent two rails (a little bit, then a little bit more, etc.); drilled a hole in one (there's this machine that goes across the tracks, gets it's power from overhead & you turn this little wheel to drill); then we spiked some rails (we were re-guaging). I was sweating a lot more then Bill because I'm realy out of shape, but it was quite the experience just the same.
Then Lou & I helped Jeff put the trolley pole back on the Lo-V (it's the same one you see in Dave's new banner !). Just a little of the fun we usually have getting dirty on the week-end.
Mr t__:^)
How about if you are a volunteer operator and would like to operate a subway car, what do you have to do?
You put in about 100 hours every year, so of course you're welcome
to break in on the equipment. We don't operate rapid transit
equipment during the peak power hours (M-F 10-6) except for
switching because the resultant power demand charge costs a lot
of money. I know that doesn't always mesh with your schedule
but email me and we can make some plans.
Anyone know a good mexican restaraunt in Harlem? The bunch of us teens/gen-xers that are doing east coast transit this spring is planning on having lunch in Harlem (we would be arriving southbound on a 5 train, having just ridden and photographed the NYW&B so we'd be getting off at 125th or at least transferring to a local there).
Well, it's not Harlem, but at 123rd and Broadway (adjacent to the 125th street station on the 1/9) is a little place called Mi Méjico that we rather enjoy - Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I go there almost every time we're in the City. I assume you or someone in your group speaks Spanish, since the menu is only somewhat bilingual and the staff is emphatically not. The food is good, the prices are reasonable, the guacamole will put hair on your chest, and the Corona is cold!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Will you settle for East Harlem? I'll try to find
the name and address. It's on the north side of E.
116th between 3rd and 1st (probably between 3rd and
2nd). We went there a few years ago after a
favorable review in the Daily News. While you are on
125th be sure to try the jelly doughnuts in
Georgie's Pastry Shop (50 W 125th St New York,
NY(212) 831-0722).
east harlem is better. we'd be coming from a 5 like i said. we'd just transfer to a 6 at 125 and get off at 116
When in Harlem, try Silvia's. My co-worker dragged me up there during the workweek. One of the best southern food I had north of Washington DC.
Hell yeah, I second Sylvia's, the best I've ever eaten, black-eyed peas or beans I forgot what it's called are super good. BBQ Beans are really good too, check it out! 126 and Lenox so take the 5 to transfer to the 2 and take it to 125.
I disagree. There are other more reasonably priced
restaurants in Harlem that do not cater to tourists.
Some have reccomended we use the 2 instead. We will have already ridden it. The plan is like this:
All groups meet at Radburn NJTransit Commuter Rail Station
NJ Transit to Hoboken
PATH to Newark
Newark City Subway
PATH to 33rd
2 to 180th
5 to Dyre
5 to 125th
LUNCH
as for what we do after lunch that day, it hasn't been decided. two other loops we will be doing are the A to Far Rockaway, walking across the mall parking lot and the LIRR to Jamaica, J from Jamaica back to Manhattan. The second is the whole southern division. Outbound on an F to Stillwell, a B to 36th, and N back to Stillwell, a D to Sheepshead Bay where we will be greeted with heypies, and then a Q under all greens to Queensbridge (at least all greens on the Brighton Line, hopefully they will be using the south side tracks in the spring when we are there). When does the last Q leave Sheepshead? I'm talking Manhattan-bound.....
Abe a.k.a. Spunky of Light Rail Fame
The last "Q" was back in '69 with the closing of the Myrtle Av El.
According to this schedule, the first train leaves Brighton Beach at 6:00 AM and arrives at Libertybridge (wouldn't it be cool if all references to the monarchy were eliminated after the revolution?) at 6:49. It leaves Brighton for the last time at 8:10 PM for Queensbridge at 9:00.
Sheepshead is one stop past Brighton, it takes 6 minutes to get to Kings Highway, so it should be 2-3 minutes to Sheepshead.
What in the world was that??? Uh boy, Siemens is losing it. He's been staring at his computer for so long that his cranium is jello city. Where else could he have come up with that rappin stuff about salaam. Siemens: I suggest some rest and a fifth of some really REALLY hard liquor. Like "Old Granddad" or something else of that nature that'll mellow you out (or at least knock you out). Yikes!
Out of curiousity, whatever happened to the breakaway contact shoe design, found on Low-Vs and R9s, as well as previous R12/14 cars? I find bits and pieces in yards throughout the system, and want to know why they switched to the design of today. What cars were originally equipped with the breakaways as weel. Thanks!
The shoe beam is a work in progress. It's constantly being upgraded and modified as better configurations are found. The last CCB (configuration change bulletin) for the IND/BMT shoebeam was issued in 1996. As for the 'break-away' contact shoe, I've seen no major design change in the last 20 years so if it did exist, it was phased out before 1980.
The first cars with different shoes as I recall were the R46. Up till that time my memories are of breakaways...I assume you mean the ones with the pin that could be knocked out making the shoe pad come off.At least on the R1 thru R44 B division only. I remember seeing shoes on the IRT versions that looked like Low=V shoes at least in the 60's...maybe some had them because of the still in existence in some places el 3rd rail? I won't swear to that though. The original BMT and IRT cars had different shoes again, different yet on both divisions, but I'd almost swear some if not all IRT R-types had the old IRT style shoes once.
The original R-46 contact shoe design (current collector vs a soe eam) was a complete failure. The design was discredited and not seen again until the R-110B. The R-44/R-46 contact shoes, as originally configured, were before my (TA) time.
Did anyone else see the Emmy Awards Show last night? There was a brief secion where they memorialized recently departed TV start through visual clips. The last individual was Walter Matthau.
The clip they used (actually, a single still shot) was from the closing scene of The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 when the "fatal" sneeze caused Walter to open the door and look inside with that wonderful expression of his.
Good actor, movie and shot.
Well in last nites dream I was trying to ride the "free" service from Suburban Station to market East. Upon entering Suburban Station I learned that the annual Wanimaker holiday light show had been moved to Suburban Station, the first floor of which had been converted into a mall. I then went down into the concourse where I studied an early 50's transit map that still showed Broad St. station and a previously unknown Phidelphia Union Station where the B&O and Reading met. There was also a little diagram with Bullitin Orders listed and I discovered that there was a 10mph speed restriction through the tunnles. When I tried to walk down to the platform I was met by a IC Electric Div. style trunstyle installed to prevent ppl from using this "free" service. Well it was set to just spin and I walked through. The steps down to the platform were twisting and signle file. There were 3 more turnstyles installed on the steps. One of which I walked under and another of which was so skinny ppl were getting stuck in it. I got down on the platform and what does arrive....A train of London Underground tube stock. Well I get in the first car and look out the railfan window. I notice that the centre city tunnle has been fitted with 3rd rails. We crawl through at 10 mph. When we get to Market East there is a train of Metro North painted ACMU's just heard of us and the conductor is installing some sort of temporary catenary pickup so the train can operate in the rest of the system.
I had another dream last night where I was riding Amtrak on the PRR middle division and at some point we all had to get out and lay a legnth of chain along the tracks. Our train was being pulled by a wide nose C40-8W and they had converted the wide nose part into a cafe car with a big railfan window. That dream ended when I realized I forgot my camera.
I had a lulu of a dream a few weeks ago.
A train of my beloved R-10s was at the top of a steep slope, and the track took what appeared to be a sharp 45-degree angle downwards. In other words, the entire front of each car was literally in mid-air before miraculously coming down squarely on the rails. None of the couplings came apart, either. The subsequent downhill run made the southbound dash from 59th to 42nd seem tame by comparison; this train had to be doing 100 mph. I'm surprised I didn't wake up in a cold sweat; this was terrifying.
And the moral of the story is: Never eat mexican food before you go to sleep.
LOL
You need a beer or two before going to bed, it's so relaxing.
My worst rail dream was when I was training on the Q's as a M/M in 1967. I was coming into Metropolitan and set air on the bridge over the LIRR. Nothing happened, I set more air, still nothing. Still the old Q rolled along. So I dumped the air. Too late. Straight rail into Metro, hit the block at the end of the track and ran into the bathroom that was a short distance beyond.
Thankfully never happened to me in real life but had an R11 on Franklin shuttle one night it was misty which makes for slippery rail ,the R11's were no bargain, and I'll only say I was glad that bloody thing stopped before I hit the block at Franklin..
OTOH a Multi did crash into that toilet at Metropolitan long before I was a M/M!
Those Multis liked to run and run and run. I thought I'd heard something about the R-11s not being able to stop on a dime.
I'm usually good for one weird subway dream per month. Even the BMT standards have held center stage.
Hey, Ed, if you had hit that toilet in real life we would have to refer to you as "The Demolition Man". :-)
Say, I never knew you drove the R-11s on the Shuttle. What time period was this?
Doug aka BMTman
I can think of another name concerning [out]house but I won't mention it here...I'd have been in such a place on the 13th fl. 370 Jay.
As I worked Vacation Relief once in a blue moon I bid Franklin just for the variety, but one day was enough....I suffered massive boredom for the whole week! Believe it was in the early 70's but neverkept track of all my jobs. The R11 with their weird brakes were a pain but ehy were OK when it was dry. I called a motorman instructor after that incident and he said..that';s to be xpected with them and misty weather. On any train in a pouring rain you get better traction than in a mist.
I also heard that was the main reason they didn't want to run the R-11s in solid trains. You never knew if you'd be able to stop without overshooting a platform.
Speaking of overshooting, did you ever worry about that when barrelling into 42nd St. on a southbound A train, especially an R-1/9 consist?
I only had a few R1-9 on the A train and by the time I got one I had enough experience and got over some of my youthful enthusiasm so knew what I could get away with. I did put one door of an R10 out of that station when I was almost brand new; that never happened again.
OTOH I put one door of an R1-9 out of 145 southbound on the A; that station was all downgrade, even though it was timed till just before the station..I set a little too much air, felt I'd stop short, kicked it off but didn't have enough recharge to get the brake I needed that soon. Notto look careless, but my opportunities with those dear trains on the A weren't common so it was easy to misjudge.
Interesting parallel - my rides on prewar A trains were very few and far between, and never along CPW. The more I think about it, it's very possible I may have ridden on a train or two which you operated, especially if you worked on Saturdays during the 1967-1970 period.
Might have. A white guy, looked almost like a teenager, often had a pipe in my mouth [yes, I know the rules]...and feathered the brakes to a stop on any SMEE. Tried not to make hard stops or screeches.With the R1-9 I'd hit the stations as if I had a Smee, and usually no blue brake smoke, or little.
If the cab door was ajar I'd be eyeing the younger female passengers. When stopped of course [but I still do that...didn't mean success then or now] Ohyes, wore striped bibs and cap 67 to 70 or 71.
{...often had a pipe in my mouth...}
Hey Ed, what was in the pipe??? There was alot of funny stuff being smoked around 69, 70 & 71, so I thought I'd ask. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
I forgot to mention that the two lines I rode on the most during that time period were the A and LL, followed by the N and the D. Those gleaming R-32s on the N were a welcome sight at Union Square after getting off a train of BMT standards. Due to the track layout south of Union Square, you could see an approaching northbound express from quite a distance, as the express tracks are nice and straight.
When I began riding in the first car on Brooklyn-bound LL trains in 1969, usually we'd get the same motorman every Saturday. He was an older fellow, gray-haired and wearing the striped bib you mentioned. Come to think of it, the conductor was the same one every week as well.
Hello-- I'm new to this list... I've been fascinated by the documented and photographed hikes along abandoned ROW's by members of this community. 'Was wondering if anything's in the works for the near future. -JB
I think there should be a Subtalk trip to the Slateford Cut-Off. What is one of the most magnificent RoW's around with 2 viaducts, a tunnel, 3 abanndoned stations, signal bridges, 3 interlocking towers and a 100 foot high earthen fill. You can get there by taking NJT to Netcog/Hopatcong but to see everything we'd need a van or large SUV to tour around in. BTW if we did have an SUV the RoW is a 4-wheel drive trail. Or for those of us around Philly I've always wanted to take a hike on the old Low Grade line from Thorndale to CP-Glen. The viaduct over US 202 is impressive to say the least.
Sounds intriguing.
to see everything we'd need a van or large SUV to tour around in.
Too long to walk?
--Mark
Its about 20 miles from Port Morris, NJ to Slateford PA. Attractions are scattered uniformly about the line. The grade is a man made mountain that cuts accross North Jersey. Roads and RR have to tunnel through it. It was built in 1909-1911 and its to big to tare down. Here's the list of attractions:
Port Morris Tower
Roseville Tunnel
Rt. 206 and RR "tunnel"
Worlds Largest Earthen Fill over Peaquest River, LHRR "tunnel"
Greendell station, tower and signal bridge
Johnsonburg station
Blairstown Station
Paulins Kill viaduct (about 1/2 size of Nichloson Viaduct)
Delaware River viaduct (2/3 size of Paulins Kill)
Slateford Tower
Del. Water Gap Senic Area and station.
My parents live in E Stroudsburg PA, and I have walked that ROW on the PA side. There is talk of Restoring Commuter Traffic there.
Elias
Well "that" RoW dosen't exist on the PA side. The line through East Stroudsburg is the origional DL&W main and is currently run by the Lakawana RR. The old main went from Dover to the Water Gap via Washington NJ. The Sateford Cut-Off sent from Port Morris to Slateford PA on the banks of the Delaware. Hey, can you do me a favout and go down town and either take a picture or just get some information about that wooden Interlocking Tower in East Stroudsburg and if possible the one in Gravel Place.
Actually *I* live in North Dakota (not too far from bigedirtmanl), and have never lived in PA myself, which would explain any confussion on the RofW. So grtting a photo this year would not be possible.
The NS line nee Conrail et Lackawana et al runs from Portland PA to a chemical company just north of E Berg, were it is Fenced off into their property, but *could* be re-opened to Mt. Pocono and on to Scranton.
The old Lackawana Cutoff RofW does exsist albeit somewhat overgrown, and several years ago Dad and I walked it right to and over the bridge. It is this line that people are looking to reopen.
Elias
Abandoned ROWs you say?
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/9thavel/9Ave.html
"Right-of-Ways"...
Isn't it "rights-of way" :-)
Interesting.
Passers by is correct because there is more than one passer passing by.
Rights of way would mean that one had several rights to use the way: ie gas, eletric, water etc.
Right of Ways would mean that you had more than one way over which you had rights.
Am I right, or have I left something out?
Elias : )
Why don't we just solve this with math syntax and say (Right of Way)s indicating the quantity "Right of Way" is now plural.
By the end of this year the NYCDOT expects 1 million cars per day to be driven into Manhattan. A sign of the relatively strong NYC economy. For example note the following increases in Average Number of Vehicles Per Day from 1993 to 1999: West Side Highway, at 79th Street exit- up 13%, FDR Drive, at Houston St- up 36%, Grand Central Parkway, at Utopia Parkway- up 11%, Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, at Hoyt Ave- up 14%.
Here's the article-
http://www.mostnewyork.com/today/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-79598.asp
Daily News editorial favoring congestion pricing-
http://www.mostnewyork.com/today/News_and_Views/Opinion/a-79555.asp
WOW! Can you imagine that? A million cars and trucks a day, all on that little island! Why that is more CARS in 24 sq mi (or so) than we have people in the whole state of North Dakota! Our little Ambulace Squad covers more than 700 sq miles.... And I bet I can respond to anywere in our teritory faster than you can out there.
Be that as it may, much of my interest remains on (or under) the streets of New York!
So here are what I thought might be a helpful solution to the traffic problems.
1) Close lower and mid-town Manhattan to privately owned cars (say south of 110th street) unless they are registered in the restricted area. To be registered, the owner must prove that they either rent or own an off-street parking place or that their only dwelling place is in the restricted area in which case they may park on the street within x number of blocks of that dwelling if there is adequate possibility of such parking.
2) That all Avenues between Third and Ninth inclusive be restricted to automobiles and busses, and that all streets (with the exception of Houston, 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 60th, 72nd and 96th which are restricted to automobiles and busses) be reserved exclusivly for trucks.
3) That tariffs and other insturments of toll collection be contrived to encourage off-peek travel into the city. Bridges that are not tolled might be reserved for the exclusive use of bus and taxi during peek hours.
4) That adequate bus and subway service be provided to and from outlying park and ride areas. A package deal that includes the parking as well as the ride in. In the past RRs charged more for longer rides, in this model, the cost of close in parking will be more costly than more distant parking. So a daily park and ride from LIC might be $20, while one from Jamacia or Canarsie might be $10.
5) That all new housing starts within the city be required to provide at least one off-street parking place for each unit and each employee of the facility.
Obviously we are talking long term solutions to a long term problem, and realistically, are only offered as a departure point for discussions on this interesting problem.
Elias
Here are my responses:
1) Close lower and mid-town Manhattan to privately owned cars (say south of 110th street) unless they are registered in the restricted area. To be registered, the owner must prove that they either rent or own an off-street parking place or that their only dwelling place is in the restricted area in which case they may park on the street within x number of blocks of that dwelling if there is adequate possibility of such parking.
If CEOs had to take transit to Manhattan, they would move to the suburbs, and everyone would have to drive. I'd rather ration by price.
2) That all Avenues between Third and Ninth inclusive be restricted to automobiles and busses, and that all streets (with the exception of Houston, 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 60th, 72nd and 96th which are restricted to automobiles and busses) be reserved exclusivly for trucks.
Would cut off legal parking. No need for this on weekends.
3) That tariffs and other insturments of toll collection be contrived to encourage off-peek travel into the city.
Here is what I agree with. Ration scarce street space by price.
3A) Bridges that are not tolled might be reserved for the exclusive use of bus and taxi during peek hours.
I'd just toll 'em. Buses could go over free. We'd probably get the subways off the Manhattan Bridge with the revenues from this one, as well as a new vehicular tunnel.
4) That adequate bus and subway service be provided to and from outlying park and ride areas. A package deal that includes the parking as well as the ride in. In the past RRs charged more for longer rides, in this model, the cost of close in parking will be more costly than more distant parking. So a daily park and ride from LIC might be $20,
while one from Jamacia or Canarsie might be $10.
I'd build inexpensive park-n-ride near the city as well, using the tolls.
5) That all new housing starts within the city be required to provide at least one off-street parking place for each unit and each employee of the facility.
Currently illegal, and opposed by environmentalists. If we had parking out side the city, housing unit owners could take the subway to their cars for weekend trips.
Obviously we are talking long term solutions to a long term problem, and realistically, are only offered as a departure point for discussions on this interesting problem.
Elias
I've got an idea - end the tolls on the Verrazano. A good percentage of the vehicles entering Manhattan are just passing through, rather than going to or from Manhattan destinations. And surely a good chunk of them, in turn, are travelling between Long Island (including Brooklyn and Queens) and points south, in other words on routings for which the Verrazano is the most direct route. Unfortunately, the bridge's exhorbitant tolls provide a strong incentive to use one of the free East River bridges and then the Holland Tunnel to get to New Jersey and points beyond. I work near the tunnel's Manhattan approaches, and let me tell you there's a massive amount of traffic, trucks in particular, heading that way - surely a lot more than could be coming just from Manhattan.
Getting rid of the Verrazano's tolls will reduce much of this through traffic. There would especially be a reduction in truck traffic, which is especially good as heavy trucks are ill-suited to Manhattan driving. Sure, there'd be a revenue loss, but it would be a small price to pay.
Good idea, I like it.
The number one reason Dad moved off of Long Island when he retired was traffic driving off of the Island. (the number two reason was taxes)
Make the Whitestone and Throgs Neck free too!
Elias
Thinking of your proposal I was wondering if there are alot more people using the bridge to Bklyn than to Staten Is. since the bridge is free towards Bklyn. If the traffic is roughly the same it kind of disproves your theory. However if there are alot more traffic in the free direction (to Bklyn) then maybe eliminating the tolls altogether would reduce traffic.
Despite all the ideas I'll step out of line and say the sad part is that mass transit for the most part is maxed out and if you could convince more people to use it the capacity wouldn't be there anyway.BTW I read about 25 years ago that only 44% of trips into Manhattan were made by train. Allow some percentage for bus and a few percent for ferry and I'd guess you'd still have about a third to 40 percent driving anyway. That's a lot of numbers.
Today's Post had an article about the high cost of parking in some parts of Manhattan. One man paid $520 per month to lease his Ford Expedition - and $684 per month to park it at a garage in the East 70's!!!
I'll bet you that he desn't spend that much on Subway tokens!
Elias
re Wall Streeter who pays $684/month to park his Expedition on the Upper East Side
I'll bet you that he doesn't spend that much on Subway tokens!
"Subway? Me? With all those, er, uh, common people? No way!"
So walk!
Upper east side to wall is only a couple of miles!
Heck! our property, here in ND is THREE miles long!
: )
I'll bet you that he desn't spend that much on Subway tokens!
Why? because he never takes the...
tram to Roosevelt Island! :-)
Sorry, I'm still recovering from last Thursday's lunch trip to Roosevelt Island, the tram doesn't take Metrocard and I had to buy 3 tokens from a machine. I always forgot to use them or couldn't use them (Shore Parkway exit at Sheepshead Bay).
I had wanted to ride that on my last trip to NYC, but decided not to because it was about 95°F outside and the tram was not air conditioned.
I had wanted to ride that on my last trip to NYC, but decided not to because it was about 95°F outside and the tram was not air conditioned.
Not to say that you shouldn't ride the tram if you have the opportunity to do so, but it's struck me as something that's a lot less interesting than you'd be lead to expect.
Funny that you brought this post up Peter, I was just thinking about that Tram today, wondering if this was part of the transit system; if not who owned and operated it?
What is there to see on the Island and how much dos it cost to ride it? Anybody know?
The tram is owned and operated by RIOC(Roosevelt Island Operating Company) which also just about "owns" the entire island. The fare is a $1.50 token which is silver with a bullseye, just like the old bullseye subway tokens. And there ain't a damn thing to see on that island.
No, it's golden with a pentagonal hole in the center. Exactly the same as the tokens sold in every subway station.
In fact, it's the only place tokens are still sold in vending machines. If the booth is unstaffed and you don't have a 5, 10 or 20 dollar bill, or don't want extra tokens, you have to walk about three blocks worth to the subway station and buy it there.
As for what there is to see, there is stuff to see if you know where to look.
There is a lighthouse at the northern end, I didn't get that far, so I don't know anything about it.
The Octagon Building stands abandoned in the center of Octagon Park, it was the original Manhattan Psychiatric Center before it moved to Ward's Island at the end of the last century. It later became the Metropolitan Hospital before that moved to East Harlem. It's wings have since been demolished leaving only the octagonal rotunda.
The Roosevelt Island Bridge, the only bridge to the island that still has access to it (the elevator from the Queensborough is long gone) is the only movable span bridge on the East River, EVER.
Further south we have the oldest building on Roosevelt Island, it was once the farmhouse for the farm here, and the local church is also older than anything else.
At the extreme southern end, beyond Goldwater Hospital, one finds the smallpox hospital, the city's only landmarked ruin, it is difficult to see, as the entire length of the island is spanned by a tall, solid corrugated metal fence. The only view can be obtained from the gate at the west end where a guard is posted.
Of course, the view of Manhattan definitely has to be mentioned!
So what's the large art-deco building practically on top of the Roosevelt Island subway station, and why hasn't someone turned it into luxury apartments or condos due to its easy proximity to Midtown without actually being IN midtown??
It looks similar to buildings in Goldwater Hospital.
And why the secrecy around the Smallpox Hospital, is it like Area 51?
Area 51 in Nevada has been apparently abandoned fromthe latest round of sattelite photos that have been available on the Internet.
And, apparently the secrecy regarding "Area 51" isn't so much due to the government developing secret planes, but rather from the government doing a LOT of illegal toxic waste dumping. The recent sattelite photos show some covering/grading that is very similar to what is done at a toxic waste "Superfund" site.
Speculation has it that the secret aircraft project development now gets done at a very remote airfield in southeastern Utah. In any event, the unmarked fleet of Boeing 737's still shuttles workers in/out of Las Vegas Airport daily (from their own heavily guarded terminal on the west side of LAS).
Speculation has it that the secret aircraft project development now gets done at a very remote airfield in southeastern Utah. In any event, the unmarked fleet of Boeing 737's still shuttles workers in/out of Las Vegas Airport daily (from their own heavily guarded terminal on the west side of LAS).
Southeastern Utah is quite a bit farther from Las Vegas than is Area 51. It would seem more difficult for the workers to commute back and forth every day, even with use of the special airplane fleet. In other words, the fact that the planes are being used on a daily basis almost contradicts the idea that the aircraft work now takes place in SE Utah.
Actually, these workers are on loan from the Staten Island Landfill. They are flown in on a daily basis to get the area ready to receive our trash in 2 years!
The aircraft used are Boeing 737-247's. They all came second-hand from the now-part-of-Delta Western Airlines. The flights from LAS to southeastern Utah take all of 40 minutes, slightly longer than the flights to the former Area 51. The planes are solid white with a red stripe down the windows and no markings other than their registration numbers near the tail, which are still their former Western registrations. (N4529W, etc.) If one looks in an aircraft registry, such as "JP Airline Fleets", these planes are listed as being owned by "EG&G Corporation" in Idaho (they have been listed as such since they left Western Airlines ownership over twelve years ago.)
As for the "new" sectret aircraft development location, it was all reported recently on the Discovery Channel, as well as Internet websites with photos of the abandoned Area 51 near Rachel, Nevada.
I was in Las Vegas in late June, and the 737's in question were all leaving town around 6:30 a.m. every morning, and returning around 5:00 p.m. (So, I assume the workshift is 7:30 to 4:00.) The terminal through which the employees pass is heavily guarded. In fact, on the Saturday I was there, I drove around the place, and within two minutes, was being followed by what appeared to be a security vehicle (unmarked Chevy Suburban with a uniform driving and US Government plates). Glad I didn't stop to take pictures, just acted like a lost tourist with California plates on the car. I politely drove back to the major streets around the airport and the vehicle I assumed to be security dropped off and turned around.
I was in Las Vegas in late June, and the 737's in question were all leaving town around 6:30 a.m. every morning, and returning around 5:00 p.m. (So, I assume the workshift is 7:30 to 4:00.) The terminal through which the employees pass is heavily guarded. In fact, on the Saturday I was there, I drove around the place, and within two minutes, was being followed by what appeared to be a security vehicle (unmarked Chevy Suburban with a uniform driving and US Government plates).
At Area 51 itself, the security people are civilian contractors rather than government employees, known as "Camo Dudes" from their wearing of camoflauge attire. One favorite pasttime is standing just outside the boundary markers, waiting for some Camo Dudes to show up to investigate, and then photographing them - they hate to be photographed, but there is absolutely nothing they can do so long as the photographers don't cross the line. One enterprising sort went through Lincoln County's public records to find people who'd applied for pistol permits using Area 51 business addresses and therefore were likely to be Camo Dudes. He then got the home addresses from the applications and posted them online. Gotcha!
what call sign do the flights use? do they us the reg. number ( like a private plane) or a flight number (like an airline)?
According to what was said on the Discovery Channel, AND what I heard on my scanner, they were going by "Juliet xxx" flight numbers when communicating with the tower.
Strange thing is, I used to work part-time for an airline in Long Beach, CA -- and we had the contract to service the Department of Justice 727 flight that came in for transferring prisoners to/from Terminal island Federal Penitentiary, and it went by "Juliet 27" all the time.
Well then they must have changed the token and the one I'm staring at is one of the old ones(hmmm.....maybe it's worth something? $2 perhaps?). As far as the smallpox hospital, it's gone. I was on an express bus to Queens last Thursday and looked down and all I saw was an empty lot where it used to be. The R.I. bridge also isn't the only movable span bridge ever. I know the Willis Av. bridge is a movable span bridge. Last year on the news, they showed the bridge stuck open. Whether it still operates, I don't know. And as far as all those things to do? Like I said, there ain't a damn thing to see on that island.
As far as the smallpox hospital, it's gone.
It isn't gone, it's a landmark.
I know the Willis Av. bridge is a movable span bridge.
And what river does that span?
>>I know the Willis Av. bridge is a movable span bridge.
>And what river does that span?
Semantics! That depends on whether you recognize the Harlem
River or consider it part of the East River. Over the years
maps have used both interpretations.
What about the pedestrian bridge from Manhattan to Randall's Island?
Isn't that a lift bridge?
Ward's Island. The East River veers East (hence the name) and follows the eastern shore of Randall's and Ward's Island through a channel known as the Hell Gate.
So, you maintain that the body of water which that pedestrian
bridge crosses is not the East River? What is it then? The Harlem
River? What does the Coast Guard call it?
It is the Harlem River, it could be a completely separate body of water, but it makes absolutely no sense to consider it part of the East River.
And nothing is different between it and the location of the Manhattan branch of the Triborough Bridge. That's a vertical lift bridge and you didn't mention that.
There is a difference. As you pointed out, the foot bridge
connects to the southerly of the two islands. At one time
those two islands were distinct, before the channel between
them was filled in.
Now try this simple test: ask 100 New Yorkers (not Hillary)
what body of water that little foot bridge spans.
And 99 of them will say "What Bridge?" The Triborough crosses the East River, I left this out of a previous post. Wards and Randalls Islands are in the East River.
-Hank
Umm, the "East River" really isn't a river at all ... it's considered a "strait". Now where I read that, I cannot recall ....
--Mark
>>> Umm, the "East River" really isn't a river at all ... it's considered a "strait". Now where I read that, I cannot recall .... <<<
You do not have to read it anywhere, you just need to look at a large map.
Tom
The Harlem River is also a strait. The Hudson, OTOH, is a true river.
It's called the east river because it's on the EAST SIDE of Manhattan Island, not because of where it goes or comes from. Why the lower half of the Hudson is actually the North River I couldn't say.
-Hank
Go over there and let me know if you see the hospital.
Yes I have, but I don't know if that's the hospital as I haven't seen definitive pictures, a guard at the site stymied my observation efforts and it was draped in something.
And don't guards want to know what they're guarding, the guard there certainly knew squat.
Guards are paid to guard. They needn't care what they're guarding.
Thanks for all the info Pigs, there sure is alot for a one road Island. On this map I have, it states that both the Golwater Memorial and Bird S. Coler Memorial hospitals are on the Island. No mention of a smallpox hospital.
Anything else we can find on there or that about it. besides the Tram and the bridge any other ways across to the island?
No mention of a smallpox hospital.
Why would you need to keep open a hospital for a disease that hasn't existed anywhere in the world for at least 25 years?
I beg to differ. It may not be around in the US, or many other industrialized nations, but you can bet your left eyeball and right testicle that it's alive and well in Africa and India.
-Hank
Encyclopedia Britannica:
Smallpox also called VARIOLA, one of the world's most dreaded plagues until 1977, when it was declared eradicated.
You are correct. According to several pages, including www.CDC.gov, indicate that the last known case of naturally occuring Smallpox was diagnosed 10/26/77. However, a closely related disease (possible a mutation from the original smallpox virus), monkeypox, had an outbreak in Zaire in 1996. The UN World Health Organization declared naturally occuring smallpox eradicated in 1980. It still exists in laboratories, and there is worry about it being used as a bio-weapon.
-Hank
PS: You can keep your body parts.
-Hank :)
IIRC there was a case in England several years in which lab carelessness resulted in a researcher in a different lab in the same building contracting smallpox. The careless researcher committed suicide.
Anything else we can find on there or that about it. besides the Tram and the bridge any other ways across to the island?
What is this board mainly about?
There is at least one other movable bridge on the East River; Othmar Amman's East River Pedestrian Bridge. It's usually up and closed to pedestrians. I'm also not entirely sure, but the City Island bridge may have at one time been moveable. I've never seen the Rikers Island bridge, so I don't know about that. The East River technically runs all the way to the Throgs Neck Bridge. Beyond the Throgs Neck, it's Long Island Sound.
-Hank
IS THE TRIBORO OVER THE EAST OR HARLEM RIVER, BECAUSE IT IS MOVEABLE TOO
Keep reading, I just posted on that a few minutes ago.
-Hank
Othmar Amman's East River Pedestrian Bridge.
Where is it? Is it the one to Ward's Island? That would be the Harlem River.
The Rikers Island Bridge is a causeway, the City Island Bridge is already beyond the East River.
That is the East River. City Island is indeed in LI Sound (Thanks, Geographica). The Harlem River ends at the creek separating the Bronk from Randalls Island. THe island at one time was MUCH smaller.
-Hank
THe island at one time was MUCH smaller.
It wasn't actually much smaller, it was rather three islands instead of one. Two of them are still named. The third one, Sunken Meadow, was at the end of the Little Hell Gate that divided the other two, was never inhabited and was completely forgotten.
Does your lack of rebuttal mean you are now conceding that
the little foot bridge spans the East, not the Harlem river?
I concede nothing. I have no evidence to show that the channel on the west side of Randalls/Wards and the Bronx Kill are part of the East River or not.
Well, that's a step back from 100% assertion that it's
the Harlem River, so I'll step away from this thread now.
You & Hank can duke it out.
According to a NOAA chart from the mid 70's (it was the only one my uncle had lying around) of New York Harbor (would you believe the harbor limit stretches to the Tappan Zee Bridge? After that, it's the jurisdiction of the Port of Albany) The Little Hell Gate was listed as non-navigable, and that landfilling was taking place. The Harlem River and East River meet, at the point where Little Hell Gate was. So the Triboro goes over the Harlem, but Othmar's "little bridge" goes over the East.
-Hank
Thanks!
Since the channel is now gone, there's no point in considering that as part of the East River. It may have been built over the East River, but it would be over an extended Harlem today.
In the early 60's my uncle took me on the Queensborogh bridge trolley,on the manhattan side the trolley went to a subway station which had several loop tracks,i imagine that terminal is long gone,even the tracks but is there any photos or better yet any movies of this terminal ?
Sunday River Productions has a 45 minute color tape entitled New York's Last Trolleys which has shots of that line. From the blurb on the back of the slipcase: "The last line is the Queensborough Bridge Railway. It is covered in fascinating detail from Queens Plaza on Long Island to the underground terminal in New York City." The cover photo on the slipcase shows one of the trolleys on the bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's still under there!
Really? The terminal is still there?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, and I believe there is some web space devoted to the topic
somewhere. The area was used at one time to park maintenance
vehicles, and there have been on-again off-again talks about
"doing something" down under there.
The Queensboro Bridge Trolley ceased operation in 1957.
If he ever moves out to Long Island (Nassau) I'll let him park in my driveway for $100 less: $584.00
That's living proof that the hated [by a lot of people] John Kneiling of Trains mag. 30 years ago was sometimes right: Quote: The auto commuter pays a handsome price to avoid the train. I Guess!
He could pay a lot of cab fares with that (if traffic moves)
Yes transit is also maxed out.
But since I was contemplating long term solutions, the addition of the Second and Tenth avenue subways, perhaps a 23rd street line, and others with appropriate extensions could be built.
(BTW I read about 25 years ago that only 44% of trips into Manhattan were made by train. Allow some percentage for bus and a few percent for ferry and I'd guess you'd still have about a third to 40 percent driving anyway.)
Actually only about 15 percent of those working in Manhattan drive, compared with 50 percent for the NYC subway alone. The share driving for other purposes is higher.
Manhattan street space is scarce, and the demand is high. You can talk around it all you want, but it has to be rationed. Your choice is to ration by prices, through congestion priced tolls on all crossings including those now free, or ration by time. The streets of Manhattan now belong to those who are willing to sit in traffic the longest. While drivers conduct their battle of nerves, the rest of use eat fumes.
Congestion toll pricing is coming to the NJ Turnpike once EZPass is implemented at the end of this month. Toll authorites like the NJTPA love congestion pricing because they know they have a captive audience of commuters who must be at work by a certain time. Many of these same commuters traveling within NJ have no mass transit alternative. I'm surprised that the ever greedy MTA hasn't jumped on the congestion pricing bandwagon yet.
Turnpike story from SI Advance-
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/0912ezpass12.html
If CEOs had to take transit to Manhattan, they would move to the suburbs, and everyone would have to drive. I'd rather ration by price.
This I have considered. All he/she would need do is to register the car in NYC (their business address would be sufficent), and to prove that they owned a suitable parking place (a contract with the parking garage would be sufficent).
Would cut off legal parking. No need for this on weekends.
Actually it would not eliminate very much legal parking since most mid-town streets already do not permit parking (leastwise such was the case when and were I worked when I lived in Manhattan) and besides, the curb side space is needed for the trucks making deliveries anyway. Obviously such rules need not be in effect late evenings or on weekends. The whole idea was to discourage extra auto traffic while expiditing the traffic that was necessary.
I'd just toll 'em. Buses could go over free
This would be too much of a complication, there is no space to build such plazas, and would dramatically increase congestion and polution in an already overburdened area.
I'd build inexpensive park-n-ride near the city as well, using the tolls.
Again, this increases congestion in a concentrated and already overburdened area. Better, I think, to encourage cars to park as far from the city as possible, and still retain the ability to provide swift comfortable transit to the city. Break the box! Put the Park and rides at the under used LIRR stations in Queens, and provide a direct shot to the city perhaps via the LIC routing and a new tunnel.
Currently illegal, and opposed by environmentalists.
HUH???? Well, no one ever claimed that regulators or environmentalists had any sense anyway!
Elias
::::WOW! Can you imagine that? A million cars and trucks a day, all on that little island! Why that is more CARS in 24 sq mi (or so) than we have people in the whole state of North Dakota! Our little Ambulace Squad covers more than 700 sq miles.... And I bet I can respond to anywere in our teritory faster than you can out there.
Be that as it may, much of my interest remains on (or under) the streets of New York!
So here are what I thought might be a helpful solution to the traffic problems.
1) Close lower and mid-town Manhattan to privately owned cars (say south of 110th street) unless they are registered in the restricted area. To be registered, the owner must prove that they either rent or own an off-street parking place or that their only dwelling place is in the restricted area in which case they may park on the street within x number of blocks of that dwelling if there is adequate possibility of such parking.
2) That all Avenues between Third and Ninth inclusive be restricted to automobiles and busses, and that all streets (with the exception of Houston, 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th, 60th, 72nd and 96th which are restricted to automobiles and busses) be reserved exclusivly for trucks.
3) That tariffs and other insturments of toll collection be contrived to encourage off-peek travel into the city. Bridges that are not tolled might be reserved for the exclusive use of bus and taxi during peek hours.
4) That adequate bus and subway service be provided to and from outlying park and ride areas. A package deal that includes the parking as well as the ride in. In the past RRs charged more for longer rides, in this model, the cost of close in parking will be more costly than more distant parking. So a daily park and ride from LIC might be $20, while one from Jamacia or Canarsie might be $10.
5) That all new housing starts within the city be required to provide at least one off-street parking place for each unit and each employee of the facility.
Obviously we are talking long term solutions to a long term problem, and realistically, are only offered as a departure point for discussions on this interesting problem.
Elias::::
The Eire Lackawanna Mailing List told me the the 7-11 would wind up near what the proper site of the PABT should be: The Meadowlands and that the L would wind up in Northern Hoboken unless it was turned towards Hoboken Terminal which would mean those that have to go to HB and pay 2 fares each way to get into the city only pay 1 and can transfer free to most lines(minus Rockaway Shuttle,B,D,and the 6th Av Q.
An interesting long term solution (to a small part of the problem) might be the construction of a "34th Street Mall"
The lowest level is the existing street.
Above that is constructed a road way connecting the Queens Midtown Tunnel to the Lincoln Tunnel. The idea is to keep through traffic off of city streets. With EZ-Pass the transit of the road and two tunnels is covered by one lower toll. Along 34th Street there are on ramps, both to New Jersey and to Long Island, but no off ramps. The idea is to speed egress from Manhattan.
The third level is a long concourse with LRV lines on the outboard sides. These LRV lines run in a continious loop from a huge parking garage perhaps in Sunnyside, to another in Seacaucus. There is no terminal, just a loop, the cars run continualy. A sleak new bridge will be built to cross the East River, and a new set of tubes will run under the Hudson. No fares will be collected on these cars. In Manhattan, they provide free transoportation to shoppers, commuters, et al, and from the parking terminals, the round trip fare is covered as part of the price of parking. I am not worried about others using these cars as a shortcut to Queens or New Jersey since there are no transit connections at either end. But if a pedestrian did want to board there, the fare would be about $5.00 (Round trip express bus fare~ discounted)
The Main deck (or almost top level) of the mall is an open walkway, perhaps with cafes, small shops, and of course access to the stores and building along 34th Street. This should revitalize the street big-time.
Finally a fifth level at each of the avenue intercetions. Fancy Resturants, Lounges, or other establishments with a good view in all directions.
~oh well.... If you must day dream, doit big.
Elias
Three people I know have jobs in Manhattan are actually REIMBURSED for their tolls and parking- and these are sit-on-your-butt-all-day jobs, not jobs that require travel by car.
Is it any wonder that there's little motivation for people to use mass transit?
(Three people I know have jobs in Manhattan are actually REIMBURSED for their tolls and parking- and these are sit-on-your-butt-all-day jobs, not jobs that require travel by car.)
The CEOs and media stars will always be able to drive, on the cuff. The big losers from congesion pricing would be city bureaucrats and those in certain public employee unions. The City doesn't pay their tolls, but they get to park on the street free.
Some people just don't like living with the peasants. My neighbor drives in and actually pays the toll, rather than ride the subway. As a result his family has two cars (the wife works in Staten Island, also for the government) and all the associated costs. That's also one fewer on-street space on our block.
It is a sad state of affairs to read that the use of any vehicle on NYC highways is up. It says alot about how these drivers are not using public transportation, either because they don't want to or there is nothing for them to use. This increase just means you and I now have to breathe more polluted air when we travel in and around NYC. It also spells disaster for the city to meet ever stringent Clean Air Act rules that call for clean air for NYC.
It still probably means that the cars overall pollute less than a smaller number of cars years ago.
About 5 years ago, I saw a study which concluded that a small percentage (about 10%) of the passenger vehicles on the road contributed the lions share (80-90%) of the pollution which came from passenger vehicles. Most of those cars were older vehicles.
The article went on to suggest that the cost of simply buying up those high-polluting vehicles was far less than the cost of many proposals for emission regulation and monitoring.
I'm not sure whether or not the conclusions from 5 years ago would still hold today -- more of the older cars have retired, and the trend in recent years has been towards heavier (and higher polluting) cars. Still, the average SUV today probably pollutes much less than the average mid-size car did 25 years ago.
Still, the average SUV today probably pollutes much less than the average mid-size car did 25 years ago.
Somewhat less, but not a lot, comparing mid-sized models produced during the late '70s (unleaded gas but pre-1981(?) tightening of the emissions controls) to 2000-model SUVs. SUVs are considered trucks, not cars, and as such don't have to conform to many of the stricter fuel economy and emissions regulations, and while they have benefitted from the improvements made for passenger cars - 100-fold improvements, in many cases, between comparable vehicles over the past 25 years - they still pollute considerably more.
In an urban environment, too, you'd be surprised at the number of older vehicles still on the road. Private vehicles in your typical urban environment aren't driven as much as comparable vehicles in suburbia, so they last longer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read that cars before a certain time do not need to conform to newer emissions regulation. This is ridiculous, unless the car is eligible for historical status, it should fail inspection if it doesn't conform to modern standards, regardless of age.
I read that cars before a certain time do not need to conform to newer emissions regulation. This is ridiculous, unless the car is eligible for historical status, it should fail inspection if it doesn't conform to modern standards, regardless of age.
Nice, but not practical. Most of what affects emissions is designed into the powertrain and can't simply be updated as new technology is developed. But the attrition theory works well - after all, your average vehicle owner isn't going to rebuild that old car forever, he'll replace it when it wears out, and the replacement will conform to the newest standards. The average age of passenger vehicles, including light trucks, in this country is approaching 7 years; that average has increased from 6 1/2 over the past ten years, as vehicles are being better designed. During those same ten years the average emissions has dropped by a significant percentage; I don't have the figures handy but IIRC it's on the order of 78-80%. Today's ULEV vehicles emit less than .1% of certain non-particulate pollutants as they did just 10 years ago, with an overall reduction in excess of 99% since 1981. During that same period average passenger car fuel economy has more than doubled; include light trucks and SUVs in both the before and after figures and the figure is still an impressive 60% increase.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know that it would be difficult if not impossible to upgrade these cars, so my proposal would only serve to eliminate them. That's why I made the exception for cars eligible for historical plates.
It would be an extremely illogical solution to a problem that (a) may not really be a problem anyway - or at least not nearly as big a problem as some people would have you believe - and (b) will solve itself anyway over a period of time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, my '85 Buick Century is double the national average!!!
Wow, my '85 Buick Century is double the national average!!!
Not surprising, since you live in an urban area. We have four vehicles that nicely straddle the average - 8, 7, 6, and 4 model years years old, shortly to become one model year older as the 2001 models hit the showrooms. Actually, I'm not sure if urban areas have an older or a newer average than the national, since I'm not sure if the government's statistics include fleet vehicles (taxis, etc.), which are well below the average in age but which quickly go above the average in miles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The fact is trucks overall pollute more than cars do because they use DIESEL fuel verses UNLEADED fuel. Any recent will tell you in blank and white that the majority of goods being shipped into and out of the city is going by TRUCK, and not by rail...many years ago, the West Side rail yard was FILLED to capacity with freight cars, and Sunnyside(L.I.C.) as well. Now they are both virtually empty everytime you pass them...this was POOR planning by CITY and STATE officals who should have foresaw this when ConRail started pulling out of the Metro area. Also, someone with any since should have gotten some funding to built another rail tunnel under the Hudson River and also maybe the East River. If no money was around, then a special tax on interstate businesses should have been levied on them to help pay for the project. Now we nothing in the year 2000 and we are left to breathe polluted air from the trucks and buses.
i totally agree. however clogging up the rails is the last thing a we all need. leave cargo on the road. however, things should be shipped at midnight to get things untangled in traffic. or make the first electric hybrid eighteen wheeler.
>>> Any recent will tell you in blank and white that the majority of goods being shipped into and out of the city is going by TRUCK, and not by rail...many years ago, the West Side
rail yard was FILLED to capacity with freight cars, and Sunnyside(L.I.C.) as well. Now they are
both virtually empty everytime you pass them... <<<
Although it may be true that goods are entering by truck, one has to question how far it travels on streets and highways. Here in Los Angeles, which is a seaport, we see very few traditional box cars on the trains going by, but many shipping containers on flat cars. These containers can be placed on a semi-trailer frame and taken to their final destinations by truck. The rail yards to the east of the city are filled with flatcars with semi-trailers piggybacked on them.
What has disappeared are the spurs for the delivery of rail cars to individual manufacturing plants and warehouses. Railroads built new terminals to handle the piggyback method of transporting semi-trailers, and the traditional yards which used to contain box cars have far fewer box cars to fill them.
Tom
The same in Oregon.
Although it may be true that goods are entering by truck, one has to question how far it travels on streets and highways. Here in
Los Angeles, which is a seaport, we see very few traditional box cars on the trains going by, but many shipping containers on flat cars. These containers can be placed on a semi-trailer frame and taken to their final destinations by truck. The rail yards to the east of the city are filled with flatcars with semi-trailers piggybacked on them.
What has disappeared are the spurs for the delivery of rail cars to individual manufacturing plants and warehouses. Railroads built new terminals to handle the piggyback method of transporting semi-trailers, and the traditional yards which used to contain box cars have far fewer box cars to fill them.
You've basically described New York as well. Thousands upon thousands of containers arrive at the New Jersey ports every day. Many of them are shipped by COFC (container on flat car) rail to points throughout the region. Many others, more pertinent to this discussion, get loaded on trucks and delivered to a vast number of customers in and around NYC. It would be absurd to imagine the network of rail spurs needed to allow direct rail delivery to all these customers. Clearly, the current system is not optimal, as there are far more trucks on the road - even if only for relatively short distances - that there would be if more than a tiny minority of customers had their own spurs. But I simply cannot imagine any alternative.
(Many others, more pertinent to this discussion, get loaded on trucks and delivered to a vast number of customers in and around NYC. It would be absurd to imagine the network of rail spurs needed to allow direct rail delivery to all these customers.)
Nonetheless, a bunch of advocates have convinced themselves and some others that a rail tunnel would "get X million trucks off the roads." What is fair to say is that they would get X number of trucks off the bridges and tunnels, which may be a worthy goal. Except that (since traffic is becomming the contraint on traffic) these would be replaced by other trucks, or by cars occupied by those who would otherwise take transit.
I'd rather have the stuff on the roads and the people on the rails. That's what we are set up for. Let's build the Second Avenue Subway instead.
Big Frieght users, such as the garment district ought to take a page from the airlines. Package everything in sealed continers in their shops, then the trucks transport the containers around the city. Hoists reaching out from second or third floor windows could load and unload such trucks without tieing up streets or sidewalks. Sure it will cost money, but without investment, the jobs would have to go somewhere else anyway.
Elias
>>> it will cost money, but without investment, the jobs would have to go somewhere else anyway <<<
Unfortunately for New York, many manufacturers would rather move the jobs elsewhere than make the necessary investment.
Tom
Perhaps big freight users shouldn't be in the most valuable and congested real estate in North America. On the other hand, deliveries to all the small freight users is enough to clog the streets of Manhattan.
Greetings, all...
Just letting everybody know that I arrived safely here in Chicago yesterday evening. All my stuff is still on my U-Haul truck, and will be going into storage within the next day or so. I'm staying with some friends in Logan Square until I'm able to get a job and find an apartment of my own. (I'm at a Kinko's store in downtown right now getting my resume updated.) As such, my postings on SubTalk will probably be rather infrequent over the next few weeks.
It sure feels good to be back home, although I wish my return was happening under better circumstances. Needless to say, these past few weeks have been rather difficult, and thanks to those who have had me in their thoughts.
Thanks,
-- David
Chicago, IL
To our fellow "Boston T-Party" crewmember, all the best to you and best of luck!
Doug aka BMTman
Best wishes
You've already heard my spiels about why Chicago is my adopted city so I'll join in and hope you find all you're looking for back home.
This coming Saturday the 16th (coincidentally the 28th anniversary of my Bar Mitzvah, and hopefully a cooler day than THAT was) is the BusFest at the Transit Museum and Try Transit at Hoboken Terminal.
I'm being granted spousal dispensation to attend both events if I want to, but can't seem to get a handle on the starting time for each one. If either one opens earlier than the other, I would do that one first.
Is anyone else crazy enough to go to both?
The official time for the Hoboken Festival is 10 to 5.
i think the bus festival's hours are about the same... i hope to make both of them... i'm going to bring my bike to the brooklyn festival... see if the mack bus is there... then scoot on over to the world trade center, take the train to exchange place, and then bike to hoboken, which i think will be faster than going directly to hoboken... then check out the gg1 and see if the modern mack bus that was built for greyhound is there... then i am going to race home to make sure i watch "this old house" with steve thomas... i hate that program almost as much as i hate "transit transit"... steve thomas has this horrible crap eating grin that makes me sick to my stomach...
howard... as a belated bar mitzvah present would you like a parker pen and pencil set or a savings bond?
I figure I'd do it this way. Because the morning sun is wonderful in Brooklyn and the Afternoon Sun is perfect in Hoboken:
9:30am-12pm spend that at the NYC Transit Bus Fest. Perfect sunlight for bus photos.
Arrive in Hoboken by 1:30 (the latest) by that time the sun is perfect in Hoboken for bus and rail photos.
For those taking pics, the is probably the best way to do it if you want picture perfect photos!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
HEY TREV' HOWS IT GOIN'?
Pel Bay Dave JR
I'm also going to both Events I'll be at the Bus Fest from 10AM to 12:30 then Hoboken from maybe 1:40 to 4:30 then Ride the R142A up to Pelham. I will be wearing a Redbird T Shirt.
PBD Jr
I'm going to try to be at the Transit Museum between 9:30 and 11:00 AM. I'll be wearing a beige NY yankees hat, with a West Florida Tennis T-Shirt. Hope to see y'all there.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
It is free, right???
No... see the Museum website for details.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
this saturday, there will also be a model train and transit show at liberty state park... some details are at the upcoming events site...
if you have some time on your hands after all this, you might consider doing the whole path system, covering the two branches of the hblr, riding the newark subway, and the newark airport monorail
( both of which might be especially difficult since they might not be running)
also don't forget friday nights era meeting at which i will leading a round table discussion with several psychiatrists on the topic of: "is railfannery a treatable psychiatric disorder"..
the newark airport monorail is definitely not running.
thanks for the info.... that will make it even more impressive if they can do a loop on that...
Looks like the weather won't be cooperating this weekend.
Just arrange with resident meteorologist for some sunshine and you'll be all set!
--Mark
I was flipping thru the channels last night and saw a bunch of people
riding an old trolley car. When I saw the mayor of New Orleans (Emerill Lagasaze has had him on his show a few times) I new we were
riding in a St.Charles car. Up front was Tipper Gore , right behind
the operator who was female. As the car coasted, she told Tipper to take the "controls" for a while. She drove the car for about (1) mile. There was a press car just ahead so
you couldn't get too close, but Tipper handled it pretty well, with
some help from the operator fanning the air brakes. The car came to stop and all the Democrats got off and went into someone's house.
Tipper said to the operator -"You're a good teacher!)
I'd like to try to run that Thomas-Pearly car myself!
Chuck Greene
Chuck, if you run one of those cars don't learn from a New Orleans operator! They fan the brakes endlessly. It reaches the point where I want to get off the cars. Sitting way in the back so you cannot see the operator helps a lot. They must have some compressor rebuilding shop.
Those operators operate in coast mode quite a bit. When I rode on those cars in 1994, they were constantly wrapping the controller, then cutting power a few seconds later. One fellow was very informative, describing each house we passed and emphasizing that these were all single-family homes. Oddly enough, he didn't know the track gauge - it's 5' 2.5", IIRC.
Thanks! I have a tape of this St. Charles line and the big dude really handles the controls well. There is a lot of fanning like you say. I can't even fan the brakes on my "Trolley Time" game on the computer properly. I'm always stopping short of the mark. The only real brakes I was ever pretty good on was on the SEPTA LRV they had at an open house on a test track for everyone to drive.
Chuck Greene
Yep, it has happened, some wise guy has placed a fake NYCT Service Notice where people can see it (not that most people read them anyway).
I got off at the Wall St (4,5) station this morning on my way to work.
On the wall there was a service notice. Normally I glance at it and continue on my way but this one stopped me cold.
The Text:
(4) ALL TIMES
Obliterate Wall
Street men with
polka*dots
10 PM Fri to 5 Am Mon
Sept 23 to 26
Take a Brooklyn-bound (4) to Jay St and transfer to a Manhattan-
bound (4).
Post 9/22/00 control area & n/btrack, Wall Street Remove 6/27/00 Service Plan 27-88
This fake train poster is brought to you by Yayoi Kasuma.
Travel information 718 330-1234, 24 Hours www.mta.nyc.ny.us
======================================================================
This looked 100% official almost down to the MTA logo which was not the proper logo (the letters MTA were skewed). I removed it from the wall and have added it to my collection of wierd transit items.
I don't know who this Yayoi Kusama is but I think we might have a dangerous prankster in the making. I don't know about you but I will be looking closer at the service notices that are posted.
This looked 100% official almost down to the MTA logo which was not the proper logo (the letters MTA were skewed).
Skewed like the notice in Todd Glickman's photo below?
http://web.mit.edu/glickman/www/xtrain.jpg
Mark
The date (sans the month) is the same, coincidence?
Aha! September 23 is not a Friday and September 26 is not a Monday. I think we have a match!
Mark
Exactly like it!!!
15 years ago, I commuted on the New Haven. As a life-long computer nerd, I naturally had a laser printer and scanner of my own. So, being part of a barcar cabal, we couldn't resist coming up with our own version of the commuter newsletters MN so thoughtfully provided on occasion.
We had things in it like "track maintenance will only be performed during peak hours to avoid inconveniencing shoppers and theatre-goers" and pix of what the cars would look like after GOH (Low-Vs and horse-drawn streetcars).
The one that got the biggest guffaws was a tidbit about the new uniforms they were issuing: "As part of our efforts to provide a pleasant riding experience for our customers, Metro North has implemented a policy requiring that conductors who are balding must keep their hats on at all times. We ask that should you notice a conductor who forgets to adhere to this policy, please promptly notify your train operator or any station agent at Grand Central, Stamford or New Haven."
Some people actually did so.
And, like, how many of us thought about putting the announcement that the Polo Grounds Shuttle will stop running on 8/31/58 in an IRT car or two around April Fools Day? :)
--Mark
If you have any questions please check with your friendly Station Agent at any booth or e-mail me.
PLEASE STOP THE EXCHANGE OF RUDNESS.Also someone asked for the URL to my webpage so here it is:My Site
He claimed to see a R142 doing simulated stops underground, heh, thats odd, doors opening on the other side at Penn Station, don't be suprised to see dents on the doors from angry passengers, lol. Why would they be testing? They already ran on the 2!
--Clayton Parker--
If it was a 3, probably the station announcements.
That's right, Clayton. Simulated test stops were being done again on the 142s, but not on 6301-10. 6316-20 were out and running today,ironically behind 6301-10 which were in revenue service. How about that?
-Stef
What about the Redbirds on the 4 line? I heard the MTA placing R142's on the 2,5 and 6 lines but what about the 4?
I live on 157th and Gerard and i want a different train instead of those Rusty Redbirds!
About the strange part..
I got on one of the R68's (the D train) and when the door opens you hear the original "ding,dong" and when it closes you dont hear it....
And what's up with the strange things the MTA has done to the trains, switching them around, such as the D going to the C line and then switching to the A line after 125 St???
And the J stopping at Canal st instead of Chambers St???
The redbirds will be replaced, even those on the 4. I suspect that the line may turn completely into an R-62/R-62A fleet. Why not? The car barn already maintains 320 R-62s. The R-62As can fill in the gap. R-142s are not out of the question, but I think it's unlikely.
-Stef
As of now, according to the CMO, the R-142s will be assigned to the #2, 5 & 6 lines.
That "ding dong" before the doors open happens a lot more often on the R46s that any other equipment. When I was working OPTO(I HATE OPTO), on one 4 car R46 consist, every time I would turn the key to activate the MDC, the train would ding dong and it would ding dong again when I closed the doors.
As far as the J's going to Canal St., that was just a GO. An exclusive use shuttle train ran on 1 track from Canal to Chambers.
If I had a choice I would start with the A Division first because all of their lines go outside. Also, I hear that if a Motorman is on the Xtra list, it is very easy to get on the 7 line at least once for the duration of the Xtra list pick. I have seen an Extra list Motorman on the 7 like once every 2 weeks a while ago! If I would work the B-Division it would be to run lines that I like to ride. i.e., E, F, A, Franklin and Rockaway Shuttles, and The J. I would run any line, Even those I don't find that entertaining to ride like the L. C'mon now I know all u Railfans cannot like Every Train u ride on. As far as the A Division I don't really care for the 4 that much. And the L on the B-Division, I would never pick that for a Straight 5 day a week piece of work. NAH, NAH, HECK NAH!!!!!
The following are the line sections that a T/O and C/R can choose from for a pick:
A division: *= back in 1994-last time I was in the "A"
*Broadway section--1,2,3,7,9,GCS
*Eastern section--4,5,6
B division(current):
South section--B,D,N,Q,FS
North section--A,C,J,L,M, Rock.Pk.S(also known as the H in TA)
Queens section--E,F,G,R
Anyone who picks extra in a section gets 99% of his jobs for that pick in that section. Only vacation relief and extra extra(brand new) personnel work the entire division. And only work train T/O's can work both the A and B divisions in the same pick but only on work trains, not road trains.
On A Divison it goes like this.
Broadway Section= Lines 1/9,2,3,7,
Eastern Section = Lines 4,5,6 GCS
I like the A Division. However, I do not like how some T.S.S's insult the other Division. I would love to work the B Division, but I still like the A Division. Some popular insults to the B-Division are BMT= Barely Moving Trains. IND= Its nearly deteriorating, or Idiots Near Destruction. And IRT= Its a Real Train.
I wouldn't go back to working those IRT "mickey mouse trains" for anything. Who wants to ride in those super small cramped cabs when you can ride in "luxury" on a R-46. The R-46 is the "cadillac", the IRT cars are nothing but yugo's. Nuff said.
Incredibly Rotten Transit. IRT. All in fun, believe me. If I meant that my handle wouldn't include IRT man. In all honesty after years of railfanning and working as a M/M I still like the IRT best. If I hadn't lived in Brooklyn AND the Low-V, High V etc were still around that's where you have found me most of the time. But I lived in Brooklyn and there were still R1-9's about in big numbers. I worked the IRT 4 picks in 10 years just for the sake of it.
What a shock! All this time I thought you were
Bi GE dirtman L.
Just Kidding, Big Ed :)
Well I like the IRT myself to be its my second home. I did want to try B Div but was talked out of it. I wanted to try the D Line but I think I'll just stay on the good old No.6 Pelham line. Besides they gave me the R142A for 2 trips a day how could I leave a line that is that nice to me.
The D or the 6. Whoa, talk about being between a rock and a hard place. The good thing about the D are the pool tables at Stillwell but thats about it. The good thing about the 6 is.......um,well.........WAIT A MINUTE!! I HATED WORKING THE 6!!!!
Well, not quite. I hated the 6 at PEL but liked it at 177. Anyway the J is my spot and I plan to stay for a while.
The No.6 out of Pelham is good as long as you not on the PM Side because its in and out. The AM is not that bad depending on you job. The only thing I don't like about my run is School Kids at WSQ and Soundview Ave.
I worked PM's with T/D Rivera. Do I need to go further?
And you get two bunches of kids? My condolances.
He is still there running the show on PM's.
Do I smell a contract violation?
Contract Violation?
HOW !
The R142A just happened to be Scheduled on 2 of my trips which was part of the RUN I picked. I never really asked for the train. I always have the same train twice what ever I get on the First I get it again on the Second. Sometimes I wish I had a R36 but you can't pick your trains you get what they give you. I didn't know I was going to run the train two times until I got the Information here on Subtalk then a week later they told me I would have the train.
I was Jokeing when I said it was kind for them to give me the train 2 trips because it just worked out that way. Besides I had to poke fun at it because the other Train Crews keep Calling it MY Toy.
Sometimes I agree to go One behind so another crew can have a chance.
One behind? You're too kind. If I aint's jumpins ahaid, den I aint's budgin'.
When we had R1-9 mixed in with newer trains on one line or another I would beg the dispatcher to jump ahead or go one behind to get the R1-9. Some went for it, some didn't. They knew if anyone would try to get the old battlewagon thru it was me, most M/M were glad to be rid of it. [or look for a chance to drop out en route]
although calculators eliminate the need for long and short division, i often find after a long trying day of sitting home and reading all the posts here at subtalk, that there is nothing quite as relaxing as doing a long division problem like:
....________
326) 487930
You are a sicko.
"You are a sicko."
cruel of you to say, but nevertheless quite true...
Not sick, just wierd---very wierd, but I enjoy it. Keep it up buddy, whoever the hell you are.
Next time you come East, Fred, make plans to visit him... underneath the eccentric demeanor you will find an eccentric person, not that much different than the rest of us... plus a real neat cab that I'm looking forward to seeing myself sometime...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's right Chris, and tickets to heypaul's apartment are available at your local Ticketron ticket office (Sales are brisk. First come, first served).
:-)
There you go again heypaul. You kid you.
___1496 r234
326)487930
326
---
1619
1304
----
3153
2934
----
2190
1956
----
234
not bad, both mathematically and lining things up...
you have to check your answer by multplying and adding on the remainder for the full ten points..
1496
×326
----
8976
2992
4488
------
487696
+234
------
487930
Ding! Ding! Ding!
For a moment there, I thought you were going to say something like integral calculus.:-)
Just busting your chops as you did say they "gave you" this two tripper. I know by now you should be in the yards with the seniority.
I'm honestly not a big fan of the A division. It has very little variety in the types of cars run. And it's always been like that. The B division has far more variety in its cars and I prefer the wider dimensions. Plus I liked the 1967-style colored route signs used on the R16, R32, R38, R40/42 and R44/46 cars as well as the blue/orange "ta" logo. Why were those not used on the IRT lines?
I'm aware I'm going back long before a lot of Subtalkers were born, BUT; I'll admit the IRT once had a lot of look alikes, most of the old fleet was typical old style riveted steel, railroad roof cars. Exceptions were the 1907 Deckroofs and the 1938 World's Fair. The Gibbs of 1904 somewhat different but blended in. But the differences to those who loved them were apparent: there were High-V's, Low-V's Flivvers and Steinways, none of which could be mixed in normal operation, and each type had a feel of its own and a character of its own. The second generation brought us R12/14, the R15, and yes, from the R17 up there was little apparent difference. But that still left an interesting mix of 3 body styles, and you could do detail differeneces on the R17 and up.
As for the B division if you went back to my youth..the BMT yes, lots of variety, but the IND, except for the R10's...everything looked the same. But that was then, and this is now. Just had to put in a plug for the IRT.
The blue/orange TA logo was used on the R-33/36WF cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
R32,38,and slant40 cars had them also. I wished the logos from the WF r33/36 cars would've been sent over to the museum for purchase. Incidentally, there is a logo like that outside the Rockaway Pkwy station. They've placed a small M logo over it. A coupleof substations have the old logo as well. They are located on the J line north of Cleveland St on the Queens bound side and north of West Eighth St on the Coney Island bound side of the F line.
True, but I'll bet they never had the 1967 color route signs that were widespread on the B division. They had the archaic black and white route signs.
The TA logo was blue and red on the R-33/36WF cars and on the few R-10s that received TA stickers with their World's Fair teal blue-and-white paint jobs. The R-32s also got the blue and reds, while the R-38s and R-40s got the blue and orange logos, with the R-38 also getting an orange stripe thrown in for good measure.
I'm just back from a quick trip with one of our SubTalk regulars, who is a C/R on the Q line. Nice riding with him on his Slant-40 over the Manny-B!
I noticed a sign hung from the conductor board on the uptown express track at 47-50/6th: It is the usual "watch your lineup" sign, with pictograms of green/green and the label Bedford Park, then the yellow/yellow and the label 57th Street. Under it all is "Help avoid taking the wrong lineup" (or something like that), and an arrow pointing forward to home signal, a half train-length away! I suppose the C/R is supposed to buzzzzzzzzzzz the motorman if (s)he notices a wrong lineup? To our C/R friends -- are there others out there like this?
For the last two years at least, Mr. R-46 has been complaining that the training of train crews has been weakened. Considering the current number of 'wrong line-ups' and 'signal run-thru s' I'd have to agree with him. In place of route familiatization we are using crib-notes to get it right. It's like an open book test - not really cheating but it does show a lack of confidence in the abilities of the train crews. I don't agree that training is the whole answer though. Perhaps it's time to raise the bar as to the caliber of train crew we hire.
If you think about it, it is silly in a way that a t/o should
have to memorize a sequence of arbitrary homeball colors. At
some locations the aspect is counter-intuitive (i.e. bottom yellow
for a straight move and bottom green for a turnout). OTOH,
think about what an engineer on a "real" railroad needs to know.
I believe one of the requirements on the LIRR is being able to
draw Jamaica station from memory! (maybe that's an urban legend).
This is one of the consequences of running the TA like a business
instead of, rather than in addition to, running it like a railroad.
There is little financial incentive in having excellent motormen.
It is much more cost-effective to have simply adequate motormen
and make up for it with other devices and procedures. So long as
the level of problems such as delays, misroutings and collisions
remains manageable and below a certain threshold, the cost savings
of not having to train crews as thoroughly and the indirect pressure
that lower average skill levels places on wages outweighs the costs
of the problems.
Draw Jamaica station?
Try drawing THE WHOLE RAILROAD from the West Side Yard to Montauk. Switches and all(you get 7 chances to pass or you're fired).
The PC (physical characteristics) test for qualifying on the LIRR, as Erik will attest, can involve the drawing of any of the 11 LIRR branches. This not only includes switches and sidings but station length and track capacities. This may be excessive but the same detail goes into the other qualification tests, RULES, SIGNALS & AIR BRAKE. This is why the LIRR crews are (in my opinion) able to deal in a more professional way, with mechanical breakdowns and other disruptions. Simply put, they just know more (as a group). Of course, there are some NYCT people (train operators and conductors) who really know the equipment as well as some car equipment people. However, these are the exceptions and the true transit professionals.
I respectfully disagree. Sometimes when I am working a line that I am unfamiliar with, those "crib notes" can come in handy. Besides, there are a lot of extra T/O's who are bouncing around from line to line who could use a little help here and there. It can't hurt, only help.
And the training is insufficient compared to what it used to be. Before, you were restricted to the yard for your first year after almost a year in school car, now it's down to 5 1/2 months and you are on the road on the first day.
Training, training and training. Even with the increased sinage, wrong-routes are happening in increased numbers. Why? For the same reason a conductor can open on the wrong side at Neptune avenue on the 'F'. One would think that if you are required to look and don't see a platform, if you are required to point at the C/Rs boards and they are not there. Call it inattention or call it stupidity but it does happen. We've now got superintendents posted in towers to prevent wrong routes. When I switch from the D to the A at 59th St. As the A arrives, I punch for the correct route. I just believe that if anyone thinks something is foolproof, they've underestimated the ability of a fool.
I do have to admit that the TA needs to hire better people to operate these trains. The difference between a T/O and a LIRR engineer is light years apart.
That 5 1/2 months in the B division -- in the A, it's 3 months then hit the road. As for crib notes - I put together my set on my Mac and have been able to sell them to IRT TOs, because unlike what we get in schoolcar, mine are in color and tell you where you go with the other line-up. I've also got phone numbers, running times, service notes, inspection notes, radio codes and troubleshooting (all proofed by schoolcar TSSs).
Personally, when I was a CR, the last thing on my mind in a station was to see if my TO had the correct line-up.
There is a similar color guide available for the BD & Q lines. It's really quite impressive with sepia pictures of the old BMT.
I don't agree that training is the whole answer though. Perhaps it's time to raise the bar as to the caliber of train crew we hire.
I would think that newly hired train crews are of high caliber, considering the vast numbers of people who take the tests each time they're offered.
I'm going to make a statement and although I do not mean it to sound as it will, others will seize upon it to say "YOU SEE", we told you so, (referring to me). Friday, I received notice that as of September 10, 2000, four of my cleaners were promoted to conductor. For sure these were all good employees - as cleaners. However, none of them had the least bit of mechanical aptitude. How well they will learn the mechanical aspects of the equipment is a great concern to me. Make no mistake - I wish each of them well but I don't feel we are drawing from the right end of the pool. Pay more - and hire maintainers as conductors.
I'm going to make a statement and although I do not mean it to sound as it will, others will seize upon it to say "YOU SEE", we told you so, (referring to me). Friday, I received notice that as of September 10, 2000, four of my cleaners were promoted to conductor. For sure these were all good employees - as cleaners. However, none of them had the least bit of mechanical aptitude. How well they will learn the mechanical aspects of the equipment is a great concern to me. Make no mistake - I wish each of them well but I don't feel we are drawing from the right end of the pool. Pay more - and hire maintainers as conductors.
Wait and see. One thing I've noticed in various jobs I've held, though none specifically in transit, is that people who get hired or (more likely) promoted into jobs seemingly beyond their capabilities sometimes confound the naysayers and "grow into" their new responsibilities quite well. No, it doesn't always happen, hence my use of the italics, but there is reason to believe these ex-cleaners will do well as conductors. Come to think of it, you're probably more likely to see poor performance in the opposite situation, when for whatever reason people have to work in jobs for which they're overqualified.
Even if you paid more, it would be next to impossible to get maintainers to become conductors. Who would want to deal with the public when you could deal with fixing things instead?
The C/R pool you pretty much can't do anything about but I do believe that new T/O's should be a C/R first. It gives them a head start as to what to expect and they would already be familiar with the equipment. When I was in T/O school car, there were only 2 C/R's in the class(myself included). The two of us breezed through class while the other 9 struggled(4 of them went back).
I agree that the more training you have the better you'll be. Being a conductor first - gives you a big lift in understanding train movement when you become a train operator. However, don't over-estimate the maintainer job. An air brake maintainer, sitting at a bench, day after day, rebuilding the same component for months or years may opt for being out on the road.
Newly hired train crews and even some senior crews ARE NOT of high caliber. They learn as they go on. A lot of crews are very knowledgeable but you would be surprised at some of the idiots(train wise and human wise) that they hire to operate trains. I oughta know, I work around some of them everyday.
Newly hired train crews and even some senior crews ARE NOT of high caliber. They learn as they go on. A lot of crews are very knowledgeable but you would be surprised at some of the idiots(train wise and human wise) that they hire to operate trains. I oughta know, I work around some of them everyday.
Maybe so, but they manage to transport millions of people a day with an extremely low accident rate and most often in a timely manner. That looks like good job performance to me.
But they don't know the system. Ask then where to change and they are not sure. When anouncing transfers they are frequently wrong. Not only are announcements for the wrong time of the day, the are for the wrong day of the week! (M trains are not available a Brooklyn Bridge or Fulton Street on weekends).
They also do not know (or care) about work being done and station announcements. I lost track of the number of C/R's on the 4 and 5 trains that kept announcing that transfers were available to the 2/3 trains at Fulton Street when there were signs that stated that the passageway to the 2/3 was closed for constuction for months.
Of course, to really appreciate that watch people who transfer divisions. When I moved from the A to the B as a CR, I had CRs I was posting with, their TOs and a couple of TSSs correct me on my transfer announcements and they were wrong. One was so adamant about 5 trains at Borough Hall that I had to call Nevins Tower and ask them when the next 5 would arrive.
Don't forget the removal of the Broad Street punch at the 10 car marker at Court Street. Now there is no way for an N driver to punch the wrong line up since the punch is not there!!
To all SubTalkers,
After working hard for a little over a month, I am pleased to announce that my web site is now online. While I hoped to have it done by Labor Day, I wanted it done before I got tons of schoolwork so I did succeed to some extent. This is the first and last post about my web site. For updates, please read further. The address is "http://www.orenstransitpage.com/". Now before you go and hop on the train, there are a few things you should take note of.
1. When I try to access the site from AOL, it is very sensitive and has to be typed 100% correctly. That means all lowercase and it has to have the slash at the end. If you also have Netscape on your computer, it has worked better from Netscape and I suggest you view the site that way. Also, the JavaScripts are messed up while viewing from AOL. Sorry about that but it will be corrected in time.
2. Because http://www.orenstransitpage.com is a free URL, that means there will be a banner ad. If you want, you can trade in the banner ad for a harder to remember URL. I prefer if you deal with the banner ad since namezero.com is supporting the site and others online as well and if you wind up with a hard to remember URL when and if you build a web site, you might want to take this into account. They pay Network Solutions, the URL registry and they get the money from advertising. More details about what they do are available at http://www.namezero.com/.
3. There are some spelling and grammatical mistkes still on the site. Please go to the contact page from Grand Central to notify me of these things! Also, when you send you question, comment, subscribtion, etc., please title the e-mail as I request. Things are set up so I can deal with questions at one time, comments at another and so on. If you mess up, it's OK. The only downfall is that your request may not be taken care of as quickly.
4. Does the site load too slowly? Your vote does count on the poll which appears in Grand Central and on the R142, R110B, and MARTA photo galleries. If the viewers demand it, I will change the site to text only without the thumbnails. I provide thumbnails so you don't have to click every single image but if it takes too long to load, your voice counts and the Oren Transit Page Transit System Customer Service Department will deal with your comment if you send it (unlike some of the other transit agencies).
5. What's up with Track 1? Track 1 is a brief description of the layout of the pages with 10 screen shots of how they will look. This is very optional and if you don't feel like venturing down to this platform, you may proceed directly to Grand Central.
6. Not all the images show up? Your connection probably timed out. Right click the image and click "Show Picture" or click the link to get the larger view. Again, vote in the poll to have your way.
7. To join the subcription list, go to the contact page (accesible from Grand Central) and follow the instructions. I will not post updates on SubTalk.
If you have any questions, comments, or anything of the sort, e-mail me. Since most of you will return to the site, your e-mails are important! Once again, the case-sensitive site URL is http://www.orenstransitpage.com. Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride!
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
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Are the R-142 and R-142A trains running now? I've already ridden the new #6 train some time ago, and I would like to ride the new #2 train before the rest come.
- Lyle
09/12/2000
Yes both are running. I did ride the R-142 on the #2 and the R-142A on the #6 in the Bronx yesterday (Mon. 9/11/00).
Bill "Newkirk"
i heard that the R-142A was oos. due something fell from beneath it. i guess its just a rumor?
I rode it today. It was at 42nd St at 6:45 AM
Have a nice day !!
It looks like they only needed a night to fix it. Remember the problem was Saturday
It is my pleasure to announce that 1970 Flxible #699 (ex-Mid Island Transit and Metropolitan Suburban Transportation Authority) will be one of the guest buses this Saturday at the New York Transit Museum’s Bus Festival.
Last year, #699 had an interior exhibit of over 100 photos of historic and contemporary buses from Nassau County. This year, one side of this bus will feature many photographs of Brooklyn’s electric trolleybuses, including the first units in the 1000-series, while the other side will have a large selection of Mack buses, primarily those operated by the New York City Transit Authority (including all series of these units).
8x10” negative-original prints of most of the photos on display inside #699 will be available for purchase, in addition to thousands of other photos of trolleys, subways, elevateds, buses, and all-service vehicles from the New York, New Jersey and Philadelphia area, dating from the mid 1930s to the early 1960s.
The few remaining copies of our 1996, 1997 and 1998 New York Area Bus MegaCalendars will also be available, on a first come-first served basis; each is priced at $24.95.
For those unable to attend the Bus Festival, #699 and a fully restored 1954 Flxible Clipper over-the-road coach, courtesy of Harran Transportation of West Babylon, will be on display at the Merrick Street Fair located at the Merrick Long Island Rail Road station in Merrick on Sunday, September 17.
Does the bus festival cost any money to see? Where is it and how can I get there?
Yes, there is an admission charge. For all the info go to the Transit Museum's page on the Bus Festival.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know this probably belongs in BusTalk but I was just wondering. You mentioned Harran Transportation of West Babylon. Is this the same company that was located on Jerusalem Av on the E. Meadow/Uniondale border that ran school buses and also ran the Jerusalem Av Bus Company in the days before MSBA/Long Island Bus??
This firm (Harran) is the same one formerly located on Jersusalem Avenue in North Merrick (East Meadow/Uniondsale border). In addition to the restored 1954 Flxible, they also have a restored GMC Suburban Fishbowl (available for charter).
I am currently listening to a report on Channel 8 Hartford about the cities of West Haven and Orange trying to get Metro-North stations. Currently they have to drive Millford or New Haven. A petition has been circulated and after a hearing it will be up b4 ConnDOT.
I am currently listening to a report on Channel 8 Hartford about the cities of West Haven and Orange trying to get Metro-North stations. Currently they have to drive Millford or New Haven. A petition has been circulated and after a hearing it will be up b4 Conn DOT
West Haven people have been asking for a station for many years now. Unless something's changed, they're not likely to get very far with the petition.
What about Shoreline East??
ConDot funds that too.
Did they build new stations for Shoreline East?
Talk about a new station has been heating up over the past few years. Originally, West Haven was to be the location. However, space is a concern, as there is no room to build a suitable station with the necessary parking. There is a location just over the Orange border that provides enough space, and the station could be built there. This does not make the politicians in West Haven happy.
I do foresee a bit of a problem. The main line has been cut to three tracks at that point. The fourth track, (Northernmost, in position of where downtown local is on subway)is still there, and used to service some active freight sidings. Unless this service were to be discontinued, this track would have to be activated, or a track realignment for an island platform would have to occur.
Talk about a new station has been heating up over the past few years. Originally, West Haven was to be the location. However, space is a concern, as there is no room to build a suitable station with the necessary parking. There is a location just over the Orange border that provides enough space, and the station could be built there. This does not make the politicians in West Haven happy.
Years ago, I had heard a proposal to build a station on the site of the old Armstrong Tire factory, which is bisected by the tracks. Is it no longer suitable or available?
Making simulated stops on the heels of 6301-6310, was this consist:
6316-6317-6318-6319-6312-6320
The springy things weren't attached on all sides around 6312, but the cars were re-linked. No, these cars aren't ready for revenue service (still have cardboard floor cover, wrapped seats, GE Lexan thing instead of subway map, no strip map.)
The A/C was off.
What? I didn't think that they would actually try this. Besides, isn't it rather difficult to link and unlink cars? It's a time consuming process.
-Stef
The specs call for 2 trains of each of the following:
9 cars
11 cars
6 cars
One can assume there will simply be 2 3-car sets and 6 6-car sets.
-Hank
You can't make 3 car sets of R142s. They come in 4,5 or 6 car
denominations. A 3 car A-B-A unit would be a very unhappy creature
having just one compressor and one converter.
It's possible the cars involved in a 3-car set will be 'special'. It's more likely they'll do it as a 4-car and a 5-car, I suppose.
-Hank
It won't be possible to have 3 car sets in passenger service.
Believe it or not, the electronics packages for the 3-phase
drive take up a bit more space than the electromechanical systems
and grid resistances that they replace. If you look under the side
sill of an R142, there is a big long chain of gray boxes -- that's
the propulsion package. On the A cars there are two of these things,
one for each truck. The B cars are half-fast cars: one motor truck
and one trailer truck. Therefore they don't have the second
motor drive unit and the space is used for a compressor and
static converter (which is now being called the Low Voltage
Power Supply).
The LVPS supplies the 37.5VDC "battery" voltage which powers a lot
of things. Within a set, that B+ line is carried via the jumper
plugs. Likewise, a Main Reservoir pipe runs within a set to
distribute the compressed air. Between sets, via the couplers,
however, the battery is not trainlined and neither is the MR.
The sets have to be completely self-sufficient and not rely
on coupled sets to make up for insufficient battery or air.
So a 3 car set, with only 1 compressor and 1 LVPS, would not be
a legal consist.
This is based on some prelim documentation I've seen on the cars.
If I've made any errors I hope Train Dude or someone else will
jump in and correct.
Yesterday, I saw a train of R142 cars stopping by the 10 sign, then going to the next station on the Dyre test track. The consist was as follows:
6311-6313-6314-6315
This is a 4-car train!
I saw it also when it was leaving the 180th Street yard.
Stranger still, around noon time I got off the Morris Park station and saw a four car consist of Redbirds stopped on the track next to the test track. This is the one to the left of the northbound track. The train was stopped, but then proceeded to go into the Esplanade tunnel.
Also, all day there was a yellow flag stationed just outside the Morris Park station. This meant train whistles could be heard all day in my area as a train would approach the flag.
Whenever there's a train on the test track, most of the time there's 4 redbirds. I'm guessing its a protection train?
I understand that up until quite recently (a year or two ago), fares were collected on board #5 trains between E. 180th and Dyre Avenue stations. In fact, I didn't know about it until a news report said the practice was discontinued (many passengers didn't know and were hassled by transit cops when they went through the gates without paying). I was quite surprised to learn this practice even existed.
Anyway, I'm curious to know how exactly this was done. I remember riding on the SIRT(OA) trains when I was younger and IIRC, the conductor collected fares, made change, and issued a fare receipt in the same manner as on commuter trains. Was this how it was done on the #5 trains?
Thanks.
A couple of times I took the #5 in the early hours.
The way they did it when I boarded the train would be in the following manner.
A full 10 car consist would operate. However, the conductor would only open one door. This door would be the closest to his/her booth. He would open it up by using a key.
When passengers board, they would find a fare box chained to one of the poles inside the car. Here they could deposit their toekn or fare. I am not 100% sure, but I think you could even deposit a dollar since there was no way to make change. These fare boxes looked like ones that were salvaged from the old Fishbowl busses once they were retired. Everyone was confined to sit in the conductor's car. On a morning like the one where a lot of people are going into the city during an off-peak hour, this car would become crowded like a regular work day during rush hour. One such example was Thanksgiving morning when a lot of families in the Bronx are heading downtown to see the Macy's parade.
[A full 10 car consist would operate...Everyone was confined to sit in the conductor's car.]
Why not just use a 2-car consist? Since everyone's riding in one car, it would eliminate 8 unnecessary cars! (That 9th unnecessary car would obviously be the mate of the other car, unless they kept some R22 cars for the late night runs!)
I believe that on-board fare collection was also used at night on the Myrtle Ave. El between Sumner and Navy. Not sure which other lines in NY may have used it.
In Chicago, several lines used on-board fare collection nights and weekends up until recently, when the stations entrances were redesigned for unattended fare collection (transit card vending machines and high turnstiles) and the trains for OPTO. I recall prior to the Green Line rebuild in the mid 1990s, stations along Lake St. had barriers which forced passengers to enter the train through the car with the conductor, while still allowing exit from the entire train, so that 4 car trains could be used with on-board collection.
-- Ed Sachs
You're right about Myrtle; I can remember riding as a railfan in 56-57 -58 or so that they also collected onboard on Sunday all day. I think that practice was stopped on Sundays though.
A conductor I used to ride with had two guys give him a $10 bill; not expecting it he gave them $9,70 in loose change as he didn't have paper change. Two fares out, 15 cents each. Replenished his supply with the clerk at Bway-Myrtle as that was where the extra trainman got off after collecting. This was on a Q type incidentally.
BTW I made one trip on Dyre when they had the wooden gate cars and the conductor collected with a farebox, I'd guess 1953 or so, I was about 10.
I remember the days when token clerks, before they became station agents, were not required to accept anything bigger than a $5.00 bill, and this was in the late 60s. There was a notice at each token booth which stated that. I would imagine the rule of thumb was they would accept, say, a ten if they had enough change to break it. Perhaps subway-buff could confirm this.
>>>...anything bigger than a $5.00 bill, and this was in the late 60s. There was a notice at each token booth which stated that.<<<
I also remember a sign that said "No Pennies Please" but the courts struck down that one.
Peace,
ANDEE
interesting how "LEGAL TENDER" isn't. We recently had BART refusing to accept some of the 'new look' bills.
Pennies are legal tender. Try giving them in for a fare.
OK. OK. A few in a coin box would not be stopped, but try giving a lot of them to a token agent. I don't know if the MVM's will take them.
Also - try to give them in a toll booths - No way
Have a nice day !!
Pennies might be legal tender, but a merchant can determine what he or she will accept. They are no longer "required" to accept all US currency.
Elias
>>> Pennies might be legal tender, but a merchant can determine what he or she will accept <<<
I seem to remember reading a long time ago, that although pennies are legal tender, the government was not required to accept more than 25 of them at one time in payment of an obligation. This was at a time when federal taxes could be paid in person, and some protesters would show up at IRS offices with thousands of pennies in jars to pay their taxes.
Tom
When SEPTA was using reguaged Market-Frankford cars on the Norrisrown
high speed line, the conductor would stand at the middle door in front of his fare box. This , of course required a 2 -man operation, as the regular Bullet cars had the operator collect up front. The new
cars on the line have a single man set-up also. This saves $$$$.
Chuck Greene
I can remember in my childhood signs posted saying Agents are not required to change bills larger than TWO dollars. There are occasionally some of them around over the yearsbut not common.
I don't know when that sign was changed to read $5.00 but my memory of it goes back to the late 40's, maybe early 50's.
The key words are 'not requ
ired'..doesn't say can not.
Best regards..from the dinosaur, how do I fix that error?
from the dinosaur, how do I fix that error?
You apparently hit the return key, which inserted a <br> tag into the middle of the word. Backspace over it and it will format correctly. Either that or you're using some editor I don't recognize and it's word wrapping.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Why not just use a 2-car consist? Since everyone's riding in one car, it would eliminate 8 unnecessary cars!]
That's what I would think also. Plus, it would save on the costs of having to run all 10 cars.
And strangely enough, during the early 90's the NYCTA ran smaller trains on weekends on the #5 for the reasons of saving on energy costs and boosting safety by having everyone travel together in fewer cars by using the "safety in numbers" principle.
It also made it feel like rush hour !!!!
Have a nice day !!
In the Early 90's I use to work Dyre on the PM Tour. The Used 8 cars weeknights after 8PM my train was the 7:52PM out of Dyre back then and I would have the last 10 Car train. Then on Weekends they run 6 car trains. Back then almost every IRT line use to cut the cars.
The No.1 and 4 Lines use to run 8 cars on weekends and the No.6 was mixed. If it was a R62A it was 7 Cars and 8 for the Redbirds. So back then if you worked on the No.6 you had to watch your cars. One day back then in the Mid 90's someone took a Redbird with 6 Cars.
However they don't do cuts that much now.
Too bad. I thought it was fun playing "spot the marker" with short trains. When they were cutting the J to 4 cars at night, it was a challenge trying to find the 4 car marker considering not only were they hidden but some of the stations were near dark. Oh well.
Why don't they run shorter cars now? They could run 6- or 8-car red trains on the 2 and 5 lines (not sure about the 7). And if I recall correctly the 2 line always ran with full 10-car trains in the early 90s even when the 5 ran with six cars. At least at night, they should have ran shorter trains on the 2.
The #2 is very full line it should always run with 10 cars, and the 6 line should also, but the 5 is'nt so heavy.
Two car trains are illegal anywhere on the TA mainline tracks(except revenue collectors). The minimum allowed for passenger service is 4 cars due to the fact that two car trains can gap off the 3rd rail and can strand passengers on board until a rescue train comes. Revenue collectors can run two cars because they do not carry passengers and they carry 3rd rail jumper cables on board.
Also, they ran 10 cars because there was no other place to put the other cars and they would be used for Manhattan service only a short time later.
[Two car trains are illegal anywhere on the TA mainline tracks]
Would the Franklin Av Line be considered as mainline? Trains there use two cars.
[The minimum allowed for passenger service is 4 cars due to the fact that two car trains can gap off the 3rd rail and can strand passengers on board until a rescue train comes.]
Why do they have 3rd rail gaps greater than the length of one subway car?
I forgot about the FS so you are right about that part but elsewhere it is a no no. Two car yard swings via mainline tracks are also not allowed. The reason the FS allows two cars is because it is an exclusive use line meaning that it does not share track with any other line, thats why the TA takes that chance. If you share even an inch of track with another line, you must have 4 cars. Also with having a two car train, if the compressor or converter dies, that train would wind up being a sitting duck.
As far as 3rd rail gaps go, the large majority of gaps with two cars would come when the train is going over a switch and either doesn't pick up enough speed or the signals on the other end of the switch were still red and you gapped in order to avoid hitting the signal. This problem will not be fixed cause there just isn't enough room on most switches to install a small 3rd rail without it obstructing part of the switch.
The R-68s on the FS are unlinked single cars, so I would imagine that means each car still has a compressor/converter.
They used to run 3 car R1/9's on the AA and GG at night and weekends back in the old days. I don't recall any of them ever getting marooned.
I don't recall any of them ever getting marooned.
Nope! They were all painted Green!
Rim shot! That's pretty bad. In that case, only the R-17s were marooned.:-)
I'm almost positive I saw and rode on three-car AA trains on the two Sundays in May of 1967 when we were in the city. Naturally, I took in all of their marvelous sounds, not to mention the backlit side destination signs.
Right you are. 3 car AA trains were a way of life for a long time during lean hours. Of course the 8-10 car D trains were more fun on CPW expresses.
There are plenty of documented cases of gap-outs on 3 and 4 car
trains from that era. However, consider that back then A) the
motormen had a bit more of a feel for the characteristics of the
railroad and speed control and knew how to avoid gapping out and
B) along the same lines, if a train did gap out, it wasn't as big
a deal. The motorman on the next train could just add up and
push the thing back onto the rail. Nowadays it would require 5
supervisors and at least 10 memoranda.
Not to mention a book of G-2s.
Yeah, to push the train forward.:-)
Hello out there from TV Land!
If anyone out there has a copy of "The NYC elevated railroad scrapbook" by Railroad Video Productions, there are 2 sequences at Myrtle-Wyckoff of 3 car R1/9s signed up as "M".
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Chicago CTA regularly runs two car trains nights and weekends on several lines.
I've also noticed that they keep jumper cables near crossover switches on many of the lines.
-- Ed Sachs
On the Red line, or at least before it was through-routed to the Dan Ryan, train lengths were, IIRC:
8 cars - rush hours
6 cars - Saturdays and holidays
4 cars - midday weekdays and Sundays
2 cars - nights and Sunday mornings
Evanston Express trains were either 4 or 6 cars. I only remember seeing 4-car trains of 4000s. With the 6000s, 6-car trains was the norm. After the rerouting, the Red line ran 8-car trains all day long - at least on weekdays.
Of course, I had a nice vantage point from the 44th floor condo my aunt and uncle had on the North Side's lakefront. My aunt (not the one who still lives there) admitted at one time that even she was starting to count cars after hearing me talk aboutit.
When they were cutting #5 trains in the early 90s, they would do the cuts at Dyre Av and send the cut cars to the bumping block north of the station. Later, the cut cars would run light to East 180th St Yard.
-Stef
Many moons ago they had 2 car trains, the last I remember was 1958 on the Polo Grounds shuttle. The Dyre Line when the had gate cars and also with High V's ran 2 cars most times, [until it became thru route] and Myrtle had 2 car BU's late at night. But that was long ago and none of those cars ran in married pairs, each was fully self sufficient, basically a locomotive!
We should make clear it was only collected on board when it ran as an overnight shuttle train...
I think it was about five years ago. The on-board fare collection was discontinued a couple of months prior to the start of system-wide use of Metrocards. I seem to recall it was May (but what year?) when Metrocard turnstiles were installed in all stations; it was in or around that March (about 60 days before Metrocards could be used everywhere) that the on-board fare collection on the Dyre Ave. line was discontinued. Why they didn't wait and make the two moves simultaneously I don't know.
Same thing happens on the MFL at Millbourne. Although there is no legal way to get to the 69th Street platform(being that it's the penultimate station), if you do catch the train from there and are the only one on the platform, the TO will stop the train and call you to their window. They don't even open the doors until you pay.
I know because it happened to me.
in cleveland they use pay on board at most of the rta stops. the opertor just turns around watches the fare box.
Then again, they run 1-car (and sometimes 2-car with the back car of the pair unavailable for riding) trains that are about 1/2 filled during rush hour (unfortunately).
What on earth were you doing there heading for 69th st?
BTW: Before the Metrocard turnstiles, several uptown stations near the northern terminal of the IRT lines had only exits.
i don't know if i can put this into english...
let's say i want to read all the messages consecutively on the board, starting from the most recent... so i click on that message... now to get to the next message, i hit BACK... the message board comes up again... now i scroll down one message and hit RETURN... it takes 2 interactions with the server and 1 action on my screen...
i noticed that the default position if i were to hit the RETURN key immediately after reading the message would take me back to the site's home page
is there any way that we could be offered a choice on the action of immediately hitting RETURN after reading a message... if there would be, i can see an advantage beyond just saving me keying... if i could adjust the action of RETURN so as to get it to do what i wish, then it would cut down on my interaction with the server, and perhaps make the overall speed of the message board faster...
perhaps i am missing some simple action on my own part that could do the same... perhaps what i am asking is not part of the over-all mechanics of the message board server...
As far as I know, it's your browser allowing you to use the keyboard to do things. I don't have any control over that.
It seems to me that what you really want is some way to see all the messages on one screen (maybe with a link after each one if you wanted to reply to it). THAT would speed things up a great deal. Not sure how feasable it is with the current software though.
-Dave
Try opening the link in a new window, then the index stays up and you can read the messages you want.
He has WebTV I do not think he can do that
Peace,
ANDEE
Are there any estimates how much subways systems lose every year to people jumping the turnstiles? Also, how effective are the current turnstiles in NYC in preventing jumpers. Any stats showing the percentage drop in fare jumping after they were installed?
The TA a few years back estimated that they lose about $80 million annually.
If somepeople would either fare-jump or not ride the subway then can you say that the TA actually "looses" money on them?
It costs money to transport them.
The trains are already running, unless you can somewho prove that the jumpers caused a boost in service.
The train needs to draw more power to move the added mass.
I've seen something that either the TA or the trunstile vendor put out as a way of saying that the new turnstiles were paying for themselves. It's not in the "Summer" vendor newsletter ... if I can find it I'll post the details.
Mr t__:^)
I believe that until Bratton became commissioner with Giuliani in 1994, the police found that it would cost more to enforce turnstile jumping than the money saved from those caught.
Then they realized that criminals are not going to pay a fare, and ended up finding that a number of jumpers were entering the subway with weapons and/or the intention of committing worse crimes.
I don't know what sort of activities the generic term "turnstile jumping" covers on the subway, but when I was in NY last June, I saw lots of people in crowded stations, having swiped their metro cards to get in, handing the cards back over the turnstiles to mates outside, who then swiped and went through on the same card. Is this common? Why aren't there exit turnstiles in NY as there are in Washington (or Sydney)?
I don't know what sort of activities the generic term "turnstile jumping" covers on the subway, but when I was in NY last June, I saw lots of people in crowded stations, having swiped their metro cards to get in, handing the cards back over the turnstiles to mates outside, who then swiped and went through on the same card.
They just don't know that it's easier to just swipe the card twice and have both people enter following that. Their card is charged with each swipe anyway.
Is this common?
Why buy a separate card for your companion if he/she will not be riding separately later?
Why aren't there exit turnstiles in NY as there are in Washington (or Sydney)?
There are exit turnstiles, how do people leave the subway
If you're talking about exit readers then reverse the question, ask yourself why there are exit readers in those other cities.
My understanding is that entry and exit readers reflect the various systems' attempts to discourage fare evaders. Whether this represents a rational analysis of the problem, whether it's case of overkill or whether it simply represents the particular history (and therefore possibly the cultural inertia)of the system (manual fare contol on Sydney's system was historically at the point of exit) I don't know.
What interests me is that the NYCTA has decided, for whatever reason, that it does not need exit readers. Is this based on a rational analysis of risk, is it the product of history, or what? I'd be interested to know.
>>> the NYCTA has decided, for whatever reason, that it does not need exit readers <<<
Chris;
Exit readers may have a good purpose in a multi-zone fare system such as London, Paris, or San Francisco's BART because it is necessary to determine how far the passenger has traveled, and if he/she has paid the correct fare for the distance.
In a single zone fare system, where one pays the same fare regardless of the distance traveled, what is the need for exit readers? They would just slow down the flow of passengers leaving the system. Since the fare in NYC can still be paid with a token on entry, what would an exit reader read?
Tom
When I rode the NJR in Japan, I decided to get off a station early and to walk the rest of the way. Thinking I was lost they tried to make me go back to the train and ride to the next stop.
Elias
Handing back cards is perfectly legal. If you read what it says on "The Map" about Metrocards, up to 4 people can use one card. Unlimited-ride (monthly or weekly) cards can be used by only one person, because they can be used again only 18 minutes after the previous use.
Washington uses exit turnstiles because they have a distance-based fare structure, so the amount which is deducted from your farecard is calculated based on where you are going to and from. New York has a flat fare, so exit turnstiles are unnecessary.
I think that completely answers my questions. Thanks
I recently saw a rather longish commercial for JC Penney featuring some bright red LRVs -- the whole of the cars was painted bright red, with no white stripes or anything. In the beginning, a woman exits the car, and in the next few shots, you see the train pull away down the street. Any ideas what system this may have been?
It looked like San Diego to me.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's what I thought, too. No other city has a one-color design that I know of.
San Diego is probably right, here's an example:
Dave,
I looked all through the "San Deigo Trolley" section of the site after posting the query. As far as I can tell, this is probably the system used in the ad. Most interesting was the fact that the system is more self-sustaining, $-wise, than other transit systems in the U.S.
KP
>>> the system is more self-sustaining, $-wise, than other transit systems in the U.S. <<<
One reason for this is the so called "Tijuana Trolley" line to the border crossing point with Mexico. Many people visiting Mexico for a day do not want to drive across the border, and leave their vehicles in San Diego to incorporate the Light Rail ride with the border visit.
Tom
The One Tunnel Home to 1s and 3s is located between 137th street and 145th Street on the 1 line in Harlem. The One Tunnel is virtually an underground yard on both sides of the service tracks are several lanes in which trains are parked. It is probably the most infamous locations in NYC history. In addition to being the birth place of countless burners and much pioneering, many serious fights and accidents occurred there.
Has anybody visited this location, if so how do we get down there?
Where did this come from? The area is the 137th Street yard, and there are 5 tracks that can each store 2 trains. This is one of the original IRT yrads, and has always been underground.
-Hank
Though I am not familliar with this yard, one way to get there is to walk on the tracks, and try to avoid the third rail. As far as I know, this is the only way to access any of the Broad Street line's share of underground yards and turnbacks, but I may be wrong.
As far as turnbacks on the BSS, yeas, but as to underground yards, big
NO!!! The BSS's only yard is Fern Rock, which was built as part of the original Broad Street line. Service used to end at Olney, but PTC added a station on the northern side of the yard. This is the only place that Broad Street cars ever see daylight.
I was always under the impression that the ramps north of Erie Station led to what was considered a yard, because I was under the impression that Ridge trains were stored there during the day.
I was always under the impression that the ramps north of Erie Station led to what was considered a yard, because I was under the impression that Ridge trains were stored there during the day before the Ridge Spur was extended to Olney.
WALKING ON THE TRACKS is a good way to get yourself:
A: Arrested
B: Electrocuted
C: Run over by a train
D: Any combination of the above
I wouldn't advise that method of visiting any facility without permission and official escort.
I think the correct answer is "D' and that's my final answer, Regis.
it's very good advice too.
OTOH, the original Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed during the epidemic itself,
Steve, just wondering what this is "Original Pelham 1-2-3"?
Marty.
The mid-70's (1973?) version with Jerry Stiller and the late Walter Matthau.
The 90's version was filmed in Toronto, and replaced one of the hijackers, who in the book and movie were all male, with a female, among other discrepencies.
-Hank
As I recall, the original movie also deviated from the book in several respects.
All movies deviate from books in several respects. In addition to trying to condense them (ever seen how long books on tape are?), there are things that are great when written, but just don't work on screen.
Your point is well taken. When a movie is based on a book, it shouldn't be a source of surprise that a re-make of the movie deviates from the book in ways different from the first movie.
The original movie and, for that matter, the remake, omitted the entire segment from the book which had DCI Daniels following the hijackers on the southbound express track on the first car of Woodlawn 1-4-1. Ryder (Mr. Blue) boobytrapped the track by placing hand grenades on the insides of the rails, and the car was blown off the track as it passed the spot.
The original version took great liberties as to the rigging of the car for the getaway. It shows Mr. Green installing all of the hardware on the outside of the car while in the novel, a heavy iron mold was placed over the controller. This disabled the deadman's feature. Three lengths of pipe were fastened to this mold. The first one fit tightly into it while the second length fit loosely so it could be pulled away along with the third length, which angled downwards, after rotating the controller to the series position. The front window had to be broken out in order to join the pipes together. The remake, as bad as it is, does portray this sequence fairly accurately.
The novel features a Lieutenant Clive Prescott as the negotiator with the hijackers, while Garber was Operations Lieutenant. In the original movie, Garber took Prescott's place, and Rico Patrone was created for Operations Lieutenant. In the novel, Prescott gives a tour to the directors of Boston's MBTA (am I correct?) while in the original movie, Garber escorts the directors of the Tokyo subway.
The hijackers board the train at different stations in the novel than in the original, and different cars: Welcome (Mr. Gray) boards the last car at, IIRC, 59th St. and moves all the way to the first car; Steever (Mr. Brown) boards the fifth car at 86th Street and parks himself directly opposite the conductor's station; Longman (Mr. Green) boards the first car (don't remember where) and takes the seat opposite the motorman's cab. Ryder is waiting at 28th St. in both the novel and movies.
In the novel and the original movie, the ransom demand is $1 million. In the remake, the ransom goes up to $5 million (inflation?). Interestingly enough, the novel does point out that Longman originally wanted to demand $5 million, but Ryder talked him out of it, saying it was too much and that a million had a standard ring to it.
The novel never says anything about having to count out 200 bills individually for each stack, as portrayed in the original movie. The bills were already counted and fastened in bundles of 100, so it was a matter of taking two such bundles and binding them together with rubber bands.
Ryder gives Prescott a specific amount of time to clear the local track from 28th St. to South Ferry in the novel - 5 or 10 minutes. Mr. Blue gives no such deadline to Garber in the original movie; all he says is "Let me know when all of my points have been complied with."
A few lines in the original movie were taken right out of the novel:
Corral: Screw the %$#%^% passengers! What the hell did they expect for their lousy 35 cents - to live forever?
And later:
Garber: Go away, will you, Frank? Go play with your trains.
Last Wednesday, we took yet another 'last trip' on the Newark PCCs before the 1940s cars are retired. On the way back to Midtown on PATH, nature called, so we got off at Pavonia-Newport secure in the knowledge that the mall would have plentiful and hospitable bathrooms-unlike the skell-infested ones at Newark Penn Station that are very scary to adults, let alone four-year-olds.
I'd never gotten off there, so was under the false impression that the station emptied right into the mall. Once you climb that STEEP ramp and emerge from the kiosk into an attractive plaza, the realization sets in that you don't seem to be anywhere near it.
We found one sign with an arrow pointing us towards the mall. After crossing Washington Boulevard at a marked crosswalk whose signal is completely ignored by most motorists, we came to a large building marked 'NEWPORT'. Went in, only to find ourselves in what looked like the lobby to an office building.
A security guard pointed us up an escalator, which then took us over a covered bridge that crossed the unfinished light rail ROW and ground-level station. Just north of this, the tracks rise up to cross the Holland Tunnel toll plaza. A few winding corridors took us into the upper level of the mall by Sterns. There were several of those large illuminated signs that looked like they would have a directory on one side or the other, but both sides of each had ads for Lancome or CK2. We finally found a rest room in the lower level of Sterns.
We left the mall through a side entrance with no signs directing us to PATH, just the Manhattan skyline to guide us in the right direction. This required a walk along a rather desolate outside wall (sans windows) of the mall and another daring kamikaze run across Washington and the HBLR tracks. A very compelling view of the Hudson beckoned between the high-rises, but we were pressed for time, so went back into the PATH entrance and barrelled down the ramp.
Unless we missed a more direct exit with better signage (we got off at the northern end, closest to Hoboken and the river tunnel), it sure seems a hassle to take PATH to this mall. There certainly seem to be enough people doing this; weekend trains from Journal Square and both Manhattan terminals have huge discharges at Pavonia-Newport.
It must be fun trying to get down that ramp loaded down with the stuff you just bought. OK, OK, I know there's an elevator, but we didn't see it.
Is 'Newport' the original name for that neighborhood, or is just used as a generic term for 'Jersey City waterfront that used to be industrial and is now loaded with expensive real estate'? The name is found on the mall, at least one office building, condos and the adjacent marina.
I'll have to check out the area again myself for the true PATH-to-mall poop. Maybe I'll do the Hoboken-to-Liberty Park thing again, but this time along Washington rather than Marin. The map says Washington's northern terminus is at 18th Street, just below the Hoboken yards. Is it?
Is it possible to get to Liberty State Park via PATH?
It is of interest this Saturday with the train show being there and all...
Marc
No, but I think they will be running a shuttle from the Liberty State Park HBLR station to the show; you can pick up the HBLR at Exchange Place upstairs from the PATH station.
Howard: You are correct about the PATH->Newport Mall. That's how it's done, there is no easier way. You'd think they could have sprung for a footbrige all the way across Washington.
Washington turns into 18th (I think) just below the yards. The first street that goes through to Hoboken is Marin Blvd (ex-Henderson Street).
-Dave
I've never felt unsafe using the facilities at Newark Penn Station. I've used them (it) only during busy hours, though.
Bob
I agree. Also, they're kept a lot cleaner than you would expect. Just don't leave your stuff sitting around unattended while you use the facilities.
>>Unless we missed a more direct exit with better signage (we got off at the northern end, closest to Hoboken and the river tunnel), it sure
seems a hassle to take PATH to this mall. There certainly seem to be
enough people doing this; weekend trains from Journal Square and both
Manhattan terminals have huge discharges at Pavonia-Newport.
It must be fun trying to get down that ramp loaded down with the stuff
you just bought. OK, OK, I know there's an elevator, but we didn't see
it.<<
The exit you used at the northern end is the only "known" exit.
The reason I say known is because on a site map of the area that is made available to us at Chase Manhatatn (in preparation for our move there in 2002) indicates an entrance/exit at the building you enter to get to the mall. If this comes to pass then I think that that door to the left at the top of stairs just as you leave the platform may contain a passageway that goes under Washington Blvd.
It is interesting to note that at one time on that steep ramp there was a moving platform on the left side of it (as you walk up). It was removed in the early 1990's as they were finishing the renovation of Pavonia/Newport but as far as I knew it hadn't worked in years before that.
There is an elevator towards the middle of the platform which takes you up one level to the ramp adjacent to the main one everyone uses
(next time you get off the escalator upon entering the station use you will find it to the left of the main ramp). The 2nd elevator from the mezzanine to the street is to the left of the Postage Stamp machine. By the way - that 2nd ramp serves the platform elevator and the staircases that are further back on the platform.
>>Is 'Newport' the original name for that neighborhood, or is just used as a generic term for 'Jersey City waterfront that used to be industrial and is now loaded with expensive real estate'? The name is found on the mall, at least one office building, condos and the adjacent marina. <<
Newport is a generic name for the area. The name dates back to around 1987 (the Mall opened the same year on 11/11/87.
Trivia time: The original name of the Pavonia/Newport station was ERIE for the Erie Railrod which used to have a terminal above the Hudson & Manhattan Tubes station. After the Erie shut down it was changed to Pavonia and then to Pavonia/Newport at the time that the mall opened in 1987.
> If this comes to pass then I think that that door to the left at the
> top of stairs just as you leave the platform may contain a
> passageway that goes under Washington Blvd.
Sort of. It leads up the air shaft/emergency exit which is in the center median of Washington Blvd. I suspect it's a long twisty staircase not really suitable for a real entrance/exit.
-Dave
[Trivia time: The original name of the Pavonia/Newport station was ERIE for the Erie Railrod which used to have a terminal above the Hudson & Manhattan Tubes station. After the Erie shut down it was changed to Pavonia and then to Pavonia/Newport at the time that the mall opened in 1987.]
The pillars of the platform at track level still have an "E" on them, which mytifies many newcomers to the Newport area!
Newport is a generic name for the area. The name dates back to around 1987 (the Mall opened the same year on 11/11/87.
WRONG
Newport was founded by Hamilton in the 18th Century. It was long independent before being swallowed by Jersey City.
The PATH platform is directly under the street. Both ramps lead to the east. A direct entrance to the office/shopping complex would require a new ramp or passage leading to the west.
I remember when I went there last month I couldn't find the mall that easily either. It's a bit of a walk through lots of corridors from the PATH station, and crossing the street can be annoying.
Unfortunately, the only way to get to the mall is through the office building Newport, following a poorly marked path (PATH!!) to the Newport Centre mall.
The mall is nothing that great either, though the food court is nice.
Between the walking, which is about 10 to 15 minutes from the PATH station, and the relatively small department stores, a trip on an NJT bus to Garden State Plaza is much more worth it.
But the main thing that got my attention were the nice views, and looking at the HBLR station from the walkway to the mall.
The station predates the mall by a good part of a century. It used to be the old Erie terminal (look for the "E" on the columns at platform level). I expect it's the mall's job to install useful signage (at least outside the PATH station).
I agree about the mall - it's big claim to fame was that NJ didn't charge tax on clothing, and New Yorkers could just hop on the PATH to go there. Now that it has to compete with NYC without the tax advantage, perhaps it will develop more of a customer focus.
One time I tried going there on a Saturday evening around 7:30 PM, and it was closed, except for the movie theater. Who ever heard of a mall closing that early? When I was a kid and they built Willowbrook, we used to be able to hang out there till 10 PM. Even the Paramus malls are open late except for Sundays, when they're closed due to local "blue laws".
I agree about the mall - it's big claim to fame was that NJ didn't charge tax on clothing, and New Yorkers could just hop on the PATH to go there. Now that it has to compete with NYC without the tax advantage, perhaps it will develop more of a customer focus.
One time I tried going there on a Saturday evening around 7:30 PM, and it was closed, except for the movie theater. Who ever heard of a mall closing that early?
I've been prejudiced against the Newport Mall after an incident that happened there about five years ago. A woman I know slipped on some spilled coffee and fell, hard, in plain sight of two security officers. They made no attempt to help her as she struggled to her feet; a couple of other shoppers finally came to her assistance. Neither guard bothered to ask if she was injured. Finally, when she asked for the location of the mall's management office so she could file a complain about the uncleaned spill, they told her "Office's closed" and wandered off.
What could be more New York area-like than an endless hike through an office building to the only convenient mall to Manhattan? During a recent trip from Baltimore, my wife and noticed how crowded the area around and in Penn Station in New York was and the torture required to get from the street to the train. In Baltimore, we walked out the door into the car and down completely deserted St. Paul St. through town passed charming (but eerily quiet) streets, and noted the difference between the two cities. I am not judging which is better, just that specific things in New York, because of the crowded space, are always more difficult that anywhere else.
...to the only convenient mall to Manhattan?
Never heard of the Manhattan Mall, eh?
OR THE MALL AT WTC???
There's a mall at WTC?? :) I thought it was just a bunch of random stores with odd operating hours, many of which are closed for renovation, or just closed. As much as the Port Authority wants people to think there's a mall there it's really a poor excuse. It doesn't seem to me that it's anything more than a bunch of stores that people walk past on the way to the subway, rather than a shopping destination in and of itself.
-Dave
Well maybe if they'd put someplace to SIT I'd stay at the WTC and linger and it would feel more like a shopping destination. I do use the Borders there sometimes, and it seems well populated evenings and weekends. But they have their own cafe and places to sit.
I do wish they'd stop piping the mall music to the outdoor plaza above. Maybe that's one of their ideas to make the plaza more inviting, but I find it just annoys me.
The World Financial Center also sort of seems like a mall, though not a very big (or useful) one. Pier 17 at South Street Seaport should probably count as an actual mall, even if it's mostly tourists that go there.
The outside music is to keep birds and troublemakers away...
I know they are building a new mall at JFK in the neww terminal 4.
to the only convenient mall to Manhattan?
I thought you said most, not only, so:
Never heard of Queens Center?
Not close to Manhattan, and it sucks.
-Hank
It's still convenient to Manhattan, unlike other city malls like Kings Plaza or the Staten Island Mall.
As part of the National Try Transit Week celebration, all MTA modes will be free. This includes Light Rail, Metro Subway, Local and Commuter buses, Paratransit and MARC Train services.
You can look at the details at:
http://www.mtamaryland.com/news/try_transit_week/trytransitweek.htm
If you want to plan a fieldtrip between Baltimore and Washington, D.C., this is a great opportunity.
Chaohwa
[As part of the National Try Transit Week celebration, all MTA modes will be free. This includes Light Rail, Metro Subway, Local and Commuter buses, Paratransit and MARC Train services.
You can look at the details at:]
Try this this link.
As you may be aware, the Washington Metro system has a major station, not unsurprisingly called Pentagon, right under the Pentagon building. One set of escalators comes up right into the basement of the building and the other comes up in the middle of a bus loading area right next to the building. And that Pentagon bus terminal is the busiest interchange between Metrorail and the various DC-area bus systems.
Now the news comes that in the process of renovating the Pentagon, the Defense Department, concerned with terrorism, wants to:
1) Cut off direct access from the station to the Pentagon basement.
2) Move the bus terminal several hundred feet from the outdoors subway entrance.
IMHO, this is nonsense:
1) If you've ever been to the Pentagon, there's a security checkpoint at the top of the escalators that lead into the building. You can't just blunder into the building from the subway; you have to pass through the checkpoint.
2) The subway was built in the 1970s. Surely there was some inkling that terrorism existed back then, too, right? And the Department of Defense was certainly not a popular agency during and right after Vietnam, with potentially violent opponents both foreign and domestic. And yet, the Defense Department allowed direct Metro access back then.
3) Moving the bus terminal away from the subway station doesn't put people any farther from the Pentagon building. They will still come out of the subway right near the building. Only now they'll have to walk 300 feet or more to catch a bus.
This makes the oft-ridiculed "get off trains before the City Hall loop" rule seem like logical policy in comparison! At least City Hall is closed as a station for non-security reasons (the curve creates the gap from hell). Pentagon Metro is a MAJOR operating subway station and bus terminal. They *could* put the security checkpoint at the bottom of the escalator -- IIRC from riding Metro, there's room there.
DOD is inconveniencing its own personnel. Anyone who's rode the Metro knows large numbers of people in military and naval uniforms ride the subway every day. Literally thousands of people who work in the Pentagon use the Pentagon Metro station. The only hope here is that all the DOD people who come to work at the Pentagon by Metro b*tch internally with petitions, e-mails, notes in suggestion boxes, and the like.
What do you all think?
Also Pentagon station is very deep, much deeper than City Hall loop, and is not directly under the Pentagon. The bus depot is also the major terminal for busses in NoVa, so about 2/3 of the users of the station don't work for armed forces or DOD. It is crazy to think that a terroist would attack from below, especially when there is a road about 50 yds away. But as they say, "You can't fight City Hall" well I guess in this case the Pentagon
It's under the southeast face of the Pentagon building, under the bus island. They'd have to have a VERY VERY BIG BOMB to do any kind of damage from Metro Level to the Pentagon proper.
wayne
>>> The subway was built in the 1970s. Surely there was some inkling that terrorism existed back then, too, right? <<<
>>> Moving the bus terminal away from the subway station doesn't put people any farther from the Pentagon building. They will still come out of the subway right near the building. Only now they'll have to walk 300 feet or more to catch a bus <<<
I seem to remember something in the newspapers a few years back about a bomb going off near a Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Since then the Federal Government has had a paranoid fear of its citizens. The Pentagon is afraid of some one driving up with a busload of fertilizer and wants busses kept farther away from the building. Since this is not a business that has to be concerned with keeping customers, the fact that many people will be greatly inconvenienced by moving the bus terminal makes no difference to them.
Tom
I'd say it's preposterous. Last time I looked, paranoia was a form of mental illness - unless it's a government agency that's paranoid. Besides, anyone who wanted to blow up the Pentagon isn't going to use a Metro station. With enough resources, a terrorist group could load a small airplane with explosives and play kamakaze.
[...a terrorist group could load a small airplane with explosives and play kamakaze.]
You had better hope no SubTalkers work for the FBI; a statement like the above could lead to your hearing strange clicking sounds on your telephone.
This is the same mentality that surrounds federal installations with bollards and prohibits on-street parking to prevent the repeat of OK City. Now any kook on a motorcycle can ride right past the bollards (and with no hindrances from parked cars) to the federal installation in question, toss his/her bomb, and go on his/her way. The next time you're in Phila, take a look at this type of abomination around Independence Hall, the US Courthouse, etc. Go figure!
>>> This is the same mentality that surrounds federal installations with bollards and prohibits on-street parking to prevent the repeat of OK City <<<
And what a mentality it is. Because the federal government has unlimited financial resourses, it couldn't care less how much the additional "security" costs. Besides the cost of the improvements (the anti-tank defenses) outside the buildings, federal buildings now have exterior guards to make sure no one parks at the curb outside the building, extra guards to process vistors through metal detectors inside the buildings, and extra guards at exits to make sure no one enters through a door without a metal detector. This is not just in Philladelphia but at every Federal building and Federal Courthouse throughout the nation.
It is not only the direct dollar outlays for all of the above. Anyone having to do any business in the Federal building must go through the security checkpoint. In Los Angeles in the morning, the line waiting to get in often extends around the block, and it may take more than twenty minutes to get in. Even in mid day a person can expect a five minute wait to enter. If you take each person trying to enter federal buildings all across the country, and average the value of their time at $5.00 per hour (the minimum wage), millions of dollars of citizens' time is wasted annually just waiting to enter the buildings.
I have regularly had to go to the federal building in Los Angeles about four times a week since 1980. Since 1995, it has been a hassle. In the fifteen years before 1995 there was one bomb scare in the building, and there has been one bomb scare since 1995. Both false alarms. IMO the additional security far exceeds any rational need.
Tom
And what a mentality it [federal security paranoia] is. Because the federal government has unlimited financial resourses, it couldn't care less how much the additional "security" costs. Besides the cost of the improvements (the anti-tank defenses) outside the buildings, federal buildings now have exterior guards to make sure no one parks at the curb outside the building, extra guards to process vistors through
metal detectors inside the buildings, and extra guards at exits to make sure no one enters through a door without a metal detector. This is not just in Philladelphia but at every Federal building and Federal Courthouse throughout the nation.
And West Houston Street between Varick and Hudson, right around the corner from my office and adjacent to a federal office building, is jammed with parked cars bearing "federal officer" plaques. I guess the emotional strain of protecting the building from anarchists, neo-Nazis and towel heads means that the officers are in no shape to take transit. Pity.
Does this mean that fairly soon Congress will stop operating their subways as well? Or that a 10 block radius around the White House will be off-limits to vehicles and pedestrians?
IIRC, the tunnel for Metro's Red Line between Metro Center and Farragut North passes directly underneath the treasury building (which is right next to the White House). Perhaps someday soon, we will have southbound trains stop at Farragut North and northbound at Metro Center, to avoid the possibility of terrorist attack.
Unfortunately, this new ultra-protectionist state appears to be here to stay.
around 10:13 tuesday night in the bronx, I have spotted the trailer car of a Kawasaki R-142A riding up to 241st street train yard. it was going up bronxwood ave when i had seen it. followed the truck to the train yard where it was being brung in. it is now sitting there on the trailer which it was brung on.unfortunately i didn't have my camera ready Damn!m the car number is 7263 you can probably see it up there in the morning wedsday 9/13/00
About ten years ago, I remembered reading an article about the possibility of building a 1 1/4 mile subway tunnel (I even remember the distance) between the IND Culver line's 7th Ave and 9th St. station to connect with the Parkside Ave. station on the Brighton line. Does anyone remember this one? Perhaps the MTA might reconsider this proposal in light of the elimination of "N" service over the Manhattan Bridge. It would be a lot cheaper than digging another tunnel under the East River and, with some modifications, "B" and "N" service could share the Bridge and "D" and "F" trains could share the "F" trackage from 2nd Ave. and Houston St. station to 7th Ave. and 9th St. in Brooklyn. If necessary, the express trackage could be repaired and the "G" sent to Church Ave. A friend of mine suggested connecting the 4th Ave. Subway to the viaduct somewhere near 9th St., but I told him that probably was impossible. Or is it?
The proposal was not made by the MTA. It was made by Assemblyman Dan Feldman in 1982, and resurrected by him several times since.
David
The proposal was rejected by the MTA, because it would allow the Brighton Line but not other lines to escape the Manhattan Bridge disaster. The MTA recommended a 1/2 mile connection between the A/B tracks from DeKalb and the Rutgers Tunnel.
I still think the MTA should build the Rutgers-DeKalb tunnel. Of course this proposal also only allows the Brighton Line trains to escape the Manhattan Bridge. But that's better than nothing, because at least that allows the D and Q trains to get into Manhattan another way.
I thought environmental issues (disturbing the park) was one of the reasons why that proposal never went through.
Doug aka BMTman
They did not have that problem when they dug the Central Park section of the 63rd St. Tunnel, did they? Besides, this would not be a "cut and cover" method. It would be deep since it would descend from the 9th St. tunnel, run under the park and ascend to the Brighton tracks. What's the big problem. Other than the Mob contracters taking 5 years for a one year project. Like Archer Ave. and 63rd St.projects! "LIFE IS BUT A DREAM, SCHIVONE, SCHIVONE"!!!!!!!!!!
They did not have that problem when they dug the Central Park section of the 63rd St. Tunnel, did they?
Oh yes they did! Especially with the more affluent persons living on Fifth Avenue.
You obviously missed The Great Central Park Playground Battle of 1971 that went with the 63rd St. tunnel construction. Rich NIMBYs with connections to the New York Times and the local TV outlets made building that section through the park a living hell for the MTA, even though the only area of the park noticable affected was along 59th St. at Sixth and Seventh Aves., where a playgorund had to be torn up. The MTA said it would be rebuilt later, but that didn't stop the NIMBYs from pushing the idea that the park area would be destroyed forever.
For those who like the stats. the R-68s (Coney island & Concourse Shops) operated at a MDBF of approximately 200,000 miles. Concourse shop was over 180,000 miles. The Concourse Shop MDBF is not a fluke either. The 12 month moving MDBF for Concourse Shop has exceeded an unpresidented 152,000 miles. Not bad for a heard of hippos.....
Not bad for a heard of hippos.....
You're a good man Charlie Brown, at keeping those CUSTOMERS happy.
Mr t__:^)
What about the MDBF for the Eastern Division R-40,R-40M and R-42?
Which class had the worst MDBF?
Nick, I'm on vacation so I only got the good news via phone message. Eastern Division fleet, I believe came in at around 100,000 MDBF but that's only from memory so don't quote me. As for the worst fleet, I never ask. When your out in front, you tend to focus on who's nipping at your heels. By the way, the competition is a friendly competition.
Nick C:
If I'm not mistaken the Eastern Division has the worst MDBF of all. The cars with the worst MDBF might be the R-42s.
BMTJeff
I was under the impression some of the older redbirds have the worst MDBF and the R42's are doing quite well these days.
Chris R16:
You might be right that the redbirds might have the worst MDBF at this time but, I remember that the cars that were assigned to the Eastern division of the BMT for a time had the worst MDBF of all.
BMTJeff
Say what you want, but that's mighty impressive. Keep it up!
I know this is off topic, but I feel I must let people know, since I am very upset about what has happened this month.
My mother was fighting Stage 4 highly metastisized Breast Cancer in the hospital in August. Unfortunately, this month has began on a very sad note. Due to complications (a stroke) she passed away on September 1.
This has been both an emotional and physical strain on me.
I don't have much family, only my Uncle. My Uncle has taken alot of time off to help me do my errands (I don't drive, and have nothing nearby within walking distance). Unfortunately he is not located nearby and this has been a strain on him. He has helped me more than he alone should have, but he needs to return to work and thus I will be having alot of time alone next week.
I have a cousin who lives in Woodbury but I don't know how to communicate with her (don't have her number, she is unlisted).
My mother was the only woman in my life and my best friend. I feel very lonely and sad. Yet I have to get out everyday and thus have a very increased reliance on mass transportation. Weekends are hell when LI Bus service is much less and even in NYC subways are all chaotic due to G.O.'s.
I'm really sorry to post something this off-topic, but I feel I just don't have enough people to talk to at this time, as many family members don't talk to me.
This happened at a time when I was (and still am)going to get training for a career in technology.
Again my apologies if this is not appropriate, but for me this is a tragic loss that affects my life, with far reaching implications for me.
And now more than ever I'm gonna need the MTA to get me around.
At least for now.
Hopefully my mother is up there in heaven and an invisible force helping me. I pray my family will care about me and comfort me, and that I'll find some other female in my life, although no one can replace your mother.
Thanks for your time and I'm sorry for this off-topic post but this tragic loss has greatly affected my life.
John, my sympathies to you on your terrible loss. Unfortunately, if we live long enough, we lose those closest to us. Since 1995, I've lost 2 parents, a cousin and a boss to that terrible disease. I am currently facing the almost certain loss of the daughter of my wife's and my best friends so I can share your pain.
I don't know enough about your circumstances but if you E-mail me privately, I may know some people who may be in a position to help you. In any event, I'm sure all here wish you well.
Steve
John, I am truly sorry to learn of your mother's death. While she has been taken from this earth, the relationship between you and her will always be there.
From what you wrote, it seems like you really need some people to help you with your loss. Perhaps the hospital or the American Cancer Society can put you in contact with some support groups for people who also have or are going through the death of a loved one. These groups can also be a means of expressing your pain and finding comfort from others who understand what you are going through. You may meet some people in a group who become very caring friends. It is important for you to find ways to express the pain and loss of your mother's death.
You have been around subtalk for quite a while. People here become like family. We may have our arguments and feuds like family, but we also get to know each other and care for each other. We are here for you.
I know exactly what you are going through John. My aunt whom the entire family cherished passed on August 22nd from lung cancer caused by smoking. And she quit 15 years ago and it still got her cause she smoked for 43.
Unfortunately, death cannot be avoided. It is a part of life. An old proverb says "Joy and sorrow are two sides of the same coin".
My condolances go out to you and your family. Remember, as long as you and your family talk about and reminisce about your Mom, she will always be alive.
P.S.I'm even more sorry that you have to rely on L.I.Bus(joke).
Dear John,
The only lesson which I have ever been able to learn from death
is always the same. You must try to fully live every day you have
on this earth. Really. It's so hard. We get so bogged down with
life's difficulties, we forget how precious, and fleeting it really
is. I know as a mother that your mom would have wanted you to be
inspired by her love and get on with your life's plans. Do that
for you and for her, John. I believe that she will "know." My
dad passed away two years ago, and I know that he has watched over
me and helps me. I am guided by his love. But I'M the only one
who can DO it, because I'm alive!!! Celebrate that. Find a way
through your obstacles and LIVE. Honor her that way. Good luck to you, John.
What a wonderful, poignant, sympathy.
Peace,
ANDEE
My sincerest sympathy on your loss.
Peace,
ANDEE
And mine, too.
My sincere sympathies on the loss of your mother. Perhaps these thoughts (from Gates of Prayer, ©1975 CCAR) will help give you strength as you face the future.
O God, help me to live with my grief!
Death has taken my beloved, and I feel that I cannot go on. My faith is shaken; my mind keeps asking: Why? Why does joy end in sorrow? Why does love exact its price in tears? Why?
O God, help me to live with my grief!
Help me to accept the mystery of life. Help me to see that even if my questions were answered, even if I did know why, the pain would be no less, the loneliness would remain bitter beyond words. Still my heart would ache.
O God, help me to triumph over my grief!
Help me to endure this night of anguish. Help me to walk through the darkness with faith in tomorrow. Give me comfort; give me courage; turn me to deeds that bless the living.
O God, help me to triumph over my grief!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Please accept my condolences; this must be a terrible time for you. (You may not remember me; we only met once in person on the May 17 trip to Coney.)
It just goes to show you can't take family, health- and life- for granted.
I do remember riding the "Q" train with you after Nathans.
I think that might've been one of the last Q trains, don't they stop running by 9 or 10pm?
Well the loss has just started to hit me now. I was in shock for awhile but now the day to day loneliness is really setting in.
I sure wish I had more of my family to comfort me, but I have no way to reach them.
With the way I feel, which is often anger, disbelief, and loneliness, I need a fast train ride. Sometimes going on a fast train just seems to be a bit of a release of emotion for me.
Especially on an LIRR M-1, speeding into the East River tunnels or past grade crossings. I took the 9:45am train from Mineola to Penn (stopping only at Jamaica) and had a real "madman" engineer. The train flew past stations and the horn was blowing constantly at the crossings.
Nice express run after Jamaica as well, with alot of horn blowing around Kew Gardens and Sunnyside, although I saw no workers on the tracks. Perhaps he just felt like blowing the horn. I knew he was pushing the limits of ASC, the bells sounded quite a few times.
The fast train ride was just what I needed.
With the way I feel, which is often anger, disbelief, and loneliness, I need a fast train ride. Sometimes going on a fast train just seems to be a bit of a release of emotion for me.
It's really sad about your mother. At least if riding trains makes you feel better about things, that's good, as you have something to count on.
John, I sympathise with your loss. In the last 2 years, I have lost my Dad, my Girlfriend of 23 years and a close friend I've known all of my adult life.
I know your pain. The loss we feel when we lose those most important to us is at times overwhelming - heartbreaking.
The best way to deal with it is to know that you will get through it.
But - that won't happen by getting "over it" - because I don't know anyone that has been through this and got over it.
Things will change and over time, you will be able to bring back in mind the wonderful things your Mom did for you over the years. And those good memories will be there for you to take you on into the future. And after all - that's what your Mom must have wanted.
This stuff gets me pretty emotional so I'll stop here. But if you need help - know that we're there for you. Feel free to write me privately if you wish.
John,
For the past few years I have been privileged to read the postings of our list members
who have been sharing their knowledge with us...
And now, an applause for those members who have been sharing their sympathy and
giving you support...
Pay attention to their opinions and suggestions... these individuals have
given you some good "food for thought."
How do I know? My mother too has passed on from cancer... not breast
cancer... another form of cancer. So you might say I, to some extent
have "been there, done that."
With more people sharing, this world will become a better one over a
period of time...
I have one close female relative who has, hopefully, had all her
breast cancer removed... by having two breast exams a year, hopefully
she was able to catch it early... I too will be heartbroken if and
when she passes on; but I'm grateful that I now have some time
to prepare myself.
I think of a young college student whose father passed on as a
result of a sudden car accident... she continued studying and
put one foot in front of the other... Perhaps it will be a bit
more difficult for you to do so... don't be embarassed that it
may take you longer to get things done... after a while you will
get over that "hump."
And don't feel embarassed about posting to this group... If I was
in your situation I too would probably be posting to some group...
Best wishes and God bless.
Morton Belcher
My deepest sympathy to you on your loss. I know that there is a time in our lives that one gets overwelmed with death, be it losing one person or many. For me personally. the '90's was a tough decade for me. In 1991, I lost my grandmother; in 1992 my grandfather; and New Years Eve 1995 my mother. A few days before I lost my mom, the day after Christmas, us subway workers lost a beloved dispatcher to cancer at a very young age. I know it hurt me to see my mother suffer the way she did (and your hurt as well), yet you will never forget her the way she was before her illness. Try to remember all the happy times with her as you grew up. To this day, there are times I still can't believe she's gone. Happenings in my life I would like to share with her, but can't. But then, for those of us who believe, she can see what is going on in your life from heaven! Indeed your mother, even in death, will remain you best friend.
My deepest sympathy goes out to you.
As does mine. I lost my mother in December, 1998 after a long, slow. slide into dementia. My Father died suddenly in July, 1969 from a pair of heart attacks in rapid succession. I've lost friends, co-workers and extended family members. It's never easy. They are all still with you, only we can't see or reach them yet.
Life has its good times and its bad ones. Treasure the good, put the bad aside.
Mine too. I was in NY City last March to visit my mom for her last 3 weeks on this world, and to bury her. My thoughts are with you.
09/14/2000
John,
This is the one time when an off topic post is welcome, no need to apologize. You of course have my deepest sympathy and support in this time of loss and pain. I've been there and unfortunatly done that, so I know how you feel.
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
John,
Grief such as this is meant to be shared with others. Public Radio International just finished a three day series on the subject of death and dying, it was very interesting. But in every culture, it is something that was shared with the whole community.
Life is a shared experience, and death is the penultimate experience of life. I have always contemplated the idea of "the Mark" that a person leaves behind. Would you believe that I hold up Robert Moses as an individual who "left his mark" on the city, yet who today knows him, especially outside of the city. The question therefore needs to be turned. What kind of mark does life leave on you. It is sufficent that our lives have made their mark on the Lord.
Br. Elias, OSB
John ... my condolences to you. May you be comforted by your memories of your loved ones.
--Mark
I feel real sorry for you, man.
I wish there were some way to make things better......
TUNNEL OF TERROR
Peace,
ANDEE
You can bet that wrong railing trains will now have go VERY slowly !!
The article says "Shtaymets' crew put warning lights out for only one direction, not suspecting trains would be coming the other way.". In my 1949 flagging rule book (sorry, it's the newest one I have - anybody want to send me a newer one?) it says: "On tracks signalled for traffic in either direction or at any point where trains may be operated in either direction, stationary caution signals as set forth in section 5(A), 5(B), 5(C) and 5(D) of this Article shall be displayed for each direction of train operation." Another rule provides for caution signals to be set out at any "turnouts or crossovers". Was this rule changed, or was this crew taking a shortcut? [I've overheard employees griping about having to walk the 500 feet down and back to set up the yellow lanterns, so I know it happens sometimes.]
Please note that while the incident occurred in the IRT Joralemon St. tunnel, the train depicted on the front of the (clueless) NY Post is an "A"!!!
Well on my lunch break, I saw the NY Post at a newstand. It had a picture of the 4 train on the front page. Then when I got home, my mother had another Post with the R110B "A" train on the front page.......
3TM
The online version shows a 4 train.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds like subway footage in the movies.:-)
The one I had was the Metro edition, which is available here in Baltimore. They likely corrected it for the Late City Final.
Here's an article about another mess on MNRR.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/13/nyregion/13RAIL.html
Sorry.. I have not figured out how to make it a clickable link yet.
Have a nice day !!!
Here is a direct link:
Metro North Electrical Fire
Anybody get one yesterday afternoon? I didn't.
Anybody get one yesterday afternoon? I didn't.
I specifically got to Penn Station about ten minutes early to see if anyone was handing them out. Needless to say, they were as scarce as hen's teeth.
There were several people giving them out on the SOUTH side of 7th Ave across from Penn. There is nothing in it-you didn't miss anything.
I found a copy this evening on the train to Patchogue. As far as I could tell, the only "breaking" story was the bus crash in New Jersey, and that was a very scanty account. The release of Wen Ho Lee probably happened too late in the morning to get into the edition.
I saw someone with one on my way home yesterday.
Mark
What is it???
A, new, free, afternoon edition of the NY Daily News
Peace,
ANDEE
Obviously, they're hoping the ad revenues from it offset the fact its a freebe, which may work for the Voice or the New York Press. But they're weeklys, and it will be interesting to see if the News doesn't end up cannibalizing their own morning paper sales, from commuters who'll opt to buy the Post or Newsday for the AM ride into town and then get the free Daily New Express for the trip home.
As you can see the air looks fine until the beam of sunlight is forced to shite through thus revealing its alarmingly high quanity of diesel exaust.
Hey, Jersey Mike, there's a little thing called DUST. If you shine sunlight at the right angle through ANY large room, you'll get the same effect.
I use Union Station every day, and Amtrak and Metra do everything reasonable to keep exhaust in the trainsheds to a minimum.
1) All Metra trains operate with the engine(s) at the farthest end of the train from the station building. In other words, all inbound Metra trains run with the cab car in front and all outbound trains operate engine-first.
2) The trains generally speaking do NOT operate their lights, etc., from the engine while loading and unloading in the station! The trains are hooked into station electricity until a couple of minutes before departure -- the lights and ventilation go off as the station workers unhook the cables, and then come back on a second or two later as the engine's generator kicks in.
As much as you squawk about it, JM, Metra isn't going to electrify. It would be insanely expensive and there's NO NEED! Metra carries passenger loads equivalent to Metro-North or the LIRR with 95%-plus on-time rates. Except for Union Station, there are no tunnels or enclosed tracks on the Metra system. And they placed a fairly large order for new diesel locomotives (Genesis, IIRC) and non-powered passenger coaches recently.
It was way more than a little "dust", it was a dense cloud of exaust. Granted I spent more time wandering wround the platform than your average commuter, but as soon as I walked through the sliding glass doors my eyes began to sting and I rapidly got a headache. And this was on a Suturday! Imagine how bad it must be on a weekday. Electrifacation asdie, Metra's job of ventlation was poor at best. All it consisted of were exaust chutes most of which had infrequent vents in the middle of city streets. There is no flow of air into the platform area and the exaust just hangs around. At the very least they should install some negitive pressure blowers at the mouth of the station to get fresh air in and the exaust out.
Hey everyone... I have a question about a tunnel that I have spotted a few times while taking either the NR or M train from Brooklyn. Right after crossing under the river, just before Whitehall Street, when the trains split off, I noticed a gigantic lit tunnel which looks as if it connects the M and NR lines. It looked like a huge construction project was going on there. What is this tunnel for, and what kind of construction are they doing there? Does anyone know?
And while on the subject of the tunnels, I have one more question. I have noticed emergency exits located in the river-crossing tunnels. Does anyone know where these exits lead? Thanks,
WS
That is the tunnel to Staten Island!!!
Sorry couldn't help myself, your question is asked some many times and half of them people say those cut outs are the tunnel they started to build to Staten Island. But alas no it is not.
Nobody has come up with the answer as far as I know. Some unbuilt connection to Broad Street?
Maybe it is a connection to Broad St, but it doesn't look like the tunnel was meant for a train.. I mean, its directly perpendicular to the track (I believe) and I don't think a train could turn off there, if there was a switch. As I said, they were doing construction down there when I saw it. Maybe its related to the construction going on at the Ferry Terminal??
I think that the exits are right at the points just before the tunnel is underwater. If one is walking through the tunnel they are at the absolute first chance to escape without drowning.
I have noticed emergency exits located in the river-crossing tunnels. Does anyone know where these exits lead?
Believe it or not, there is a Yellow Submarine docked there.
ok
Are the tubes separated? perhaps it could be a horizontal exit to the other tube. I think you see these on the Lincoln tunnel.
Isn't there a ventilation shaft mid route, or is that just on the BB tunnel?
Elias
The BB tunnel has vents/stairs at Governors Island, IIRC. AFAIK, the subway tunnels don't.
The Lincoln Tunnel has such a passageway between the original tubes on the Jersey side. There appears to be an elevator as well.
Crank, I'm not answering that phone, because I know it's you,
But my friend, let me offer you a hand to pull you out of the muck ?
Wasn't it more fun not in the muck trying to see who's better at throwing rocks ?
I skip over so many threads I'm sure I'm missing something of value, please stop.
Mr t__:^)
Once the R143's arrive for the east.The city should really consider getting rid of these cars in particular either by scrapping them or transferring them them to LIRR as some kind of Subway service (like they did in the 30's (if you look at the Lirrhistory site it mention this)These trains are so long and heavy that you can get any speed out of these cars.Especially on The Fulton St Exp.,While on R38 flies thru these tunnels,the r44 just slowly rambles .the R40/40m/42's would be much better suited for the lines operating the r44/46's.
It would seem by you post that in the term "Rapid Transit", you give more importance to the Rapid while most people care more about the transit. Yup, the R-44 and R-46 were ill-conceived ideas at best. Another example of the proverbial race-horse designed by a committee. However, your idea makes absolutely no sense and flies in the face of logic. The R-143 fleet will be 104 cars or perhaps 200 with the option cars. That's 12,000 feet of trains. There are 274 servicable R-44s and 1052 R-46s or 99,450 feet of trains. Considering that the B division is already 140 cars short, how do you propose to make this work.
You also make several assumptions that are incorrect. The R-44s and R-46s are not significantly slower than the R-38s or R-40s. However, the R-38s and R-40s have structural deficiencies that would indicate that they should be among the first cars scrapped. Right now, one major concern is keeping these two fleets alive until replacement cars an be purchased.
I'd be happy to ride the R46s on the F for the rest of my career, if the reliability could be maintained.
No need to keep the R40s and R38s alive. Just cut service and advise people to move to the suburbs. Isn't that the Pataki policy?
The R44 is as fast as the R38. Only the R68 gives the 75' cars a bad name speed wise. The R46 will be around for decades to come. The R38/40 and 42's days are numbered. Your proposal is insane.
As of lately, the R44s are faster that the R38s and the R32s.
You don't suppose the R-44s have been souped up, do you? I'll have to see for myself next month.
I believe they have done something to them. I've been riding those cars for almost 25 years and they have never been remotely as fast as they are nowadays.
Unless, of course, they're just trying to imitate the immortal Thundering Herd, the R-10s. We'll see next month just how fast those R-44s take that CPW stretch.
Could it be even remotely possible that they've actually restored the final field shunting step?
Naaahhhhhh, couldn't be.
Don't se the CPW express run to judge the R44's speed, as the hippos on the D line get in their way. A better way to see them at full speed is to ride along Fulton St, or the Rockaway ROW between Broad Channel and Howard Beach
Thanks for the tip.
Hippos?, I would say giant 3 toed sloths, much of the time the local is faster on cpw.
I love the R44/46's. They are so quiet, and they are fast. I was on the F today and we flew. I was on an R38 A train on the CPW express, and I wasn't impressed. The GT's keep the train from getting any real speed. Ditto for Fulton express.
I think the R44's and R46's are some of best cars the TA has. They have such a warm feeling inside.
What should go are the old rustbirds (excuse me, Redbirds) and the Hippos (R68's) are the trains that crawl. And that stainless steel Hippo rattles like hell on curves, and it's heavy and very slow on upgrades. I've never seen an R68 fly.
So you'd take 425 of the most reliable cars in the fleet (625 if you include the 68As) and get rid of them because you believe they are not among the fastest. yeah, that makes real sense.
Hey, I wouldn't get rid of them. I'd probably use them on all the local lines, and put the fast trains on express. The G and R don't deserve R46's. Give them the Hippos.
R68s in Queens? Bite your tongue!!!
Besides, I don't see any difference in speed between the car classes. They ALL suck since they were modified.
"R68's in Queens". When the 63rd St. connection opens for regular service and R143's are on line on the L, certain equipment not seen on the Queens IND will have to make an appearance, unless simply additional R32's from CI make their way to Queens. A few years ago, displaced R42's would be assigned to the N according to the NY Division of the ERA.
I'd agree with this scenario. Extra R32's from the N can be transferred to the Jamaica yard, as the crews there are already familiar with this car.
I'm sure that the General Superintendent of Jamaica Shop, the Assistant Cheif mechanical Officer and the Chief Mechanical Officer will be happy to know that it's simply a matter of moving the cars over. Of course, you have to consider; how many people do you move to maintain the inspection schedule, the clreaning of the cars, etc? Where do you put the additional lockers for the people you move? Where do you lay up those extra trains? Reality time unless we're dealing with Lionel.
If Jamaica can't handle more trains, then SOME of the Queens Blvd. line's cars will have to be assigned to other yards, probably CI.
Isn't there room at Jamaica for more storage tracks anyway?
There is room for 25 additional tracks on the west side of the yard. However, the 'Friends of Willow Lake' and other NIMBYites have blocked their installation. Unfortunately, it's more than storage space. Add 140 R-32s to the Jamaica fleet. What does that translate to in monthly milage? Then in order to maintain the 10,000 mile inspection window, how many additional inspections do you do each month? How many inspection teams need to be added? How many other mechanics, cleaners and supervisors? Then all the other problems that i mentioned earlier.
Jamaica Yard has to maintain over 1000 cars as it is. When the 63rd St. connection is opened, it would be easy to say "Jamaica can maintain the extra 140 cars (actually more since you need a pool of spares). Jamaica MAY get more cars to maintain, no decision has been made one way or another. MAYBE CI will have to maintain some more, no decison has been made one way or another. We also don't know what the service plan over the MannyB will be. The TA suits still have to decide which barns get which cars. MAYBE they will put 60' cars in Concourse, no decision has been made one way or another. MAYBE the G will become based out of CI barn with R68's for 24/7 OPTO, MAYBE the G won't be OPTO, MAYBE the G will keep R46's, no decision has been made one way or another. These capital MAYBE's are made to make a point: anything can happen, and I'm not saying these things should happen or I endorse them. The are a countless number of senario's which can take place by the time regular service commences. My point is this: everything is speculation at this point. Some ideas are good, some are bad. Lots of opinions have been posted here and in the halls of 370 Jay St. It doesn't mean a thing what we all feel individually should be done. The TA suits will make the final decison all by themselves without the imput of SubTalkers!
The TA suits will make the final decison all by themselves without the
imput of SubTalkers!
What a pity!
Elias
"What a pity!"
What a pity? Why? Considering some of the plans I've seen posted here and the reasons for them - I see no special wisdom here. Some of the ideas posted here will work while others will not. I just do not see any clear-cut advantages to anything posted here. On the other hand, I've seen some silly posts like getting rid of the R-44s & R-46s. How about using 8 car R-44s on the C line to free up cars? Moving this fleet here and that fleet there without consulting local politicians, not to mention changing terminals of a given line without political support? How about changing work programs and picks without union opposition? I don't intend to put anyone down for their legitimate ideas but when you go from 'O' Gauge to real life, things get very complicated. There are no simple ideas.
I was being a little sarcastic, of course.
But I found the whole thread interesting, since the details of what trainsets live in what yards and for what reasons were very interesting.
So even the hairbrained ideas brought out new information that I had not known before.
Elias
Well said. Subway line changes have to go through intense scrutinity, there are no easy answers,
Thank you, Bill. It seems that everyone has inside inofrmation and every thing posted here becomes fact - ripe for criticism, editing and modification. I hope all subtalkers will hear what you are saying and realize that while all this speculation is fun - all it is - is speculation.
On any TA rumor it goes something like this: one guy hears something from someone and tells somebody else. Tomorrow, somebody else hears the same rumor from a completely different person. Now all of a sudden since 4 people heard the same thing, that rumor becomes "fact". It's a real soap opera out there!
Its almost like the kid's game of telephone. Want comes out at the end is never what went in at the beginning !!
I'd keep the R-46s. They're OK. Their door chimes, well, that's another story.
They're reliable, don't have "rust" issues the the R38/40 and R42 cars do. They won't have all the gadgets and gizmos the newer generation of cars will be sporting 10 years from now, but the R46 will still remain operational. Who made up the rule that the oldest cars have to operate on the least ridden lines anyway? The R32's operate today on one of the most heavily used lines in the system (E), and they're currently the oldest B division cars still running. Perhaps they'll serve the Queens IND riders for the next 20+ years.
The R44, with all it's mechanical woes, will have a shorter lifespan. Pity, as they're the fastest 75' cars around.
As for the rust problems on the R38/40/42, can't the TA apply paint to the non-stainless steel portions of these cars to prevent rusting?
Also, since MK rebuilt the R32s, their roofs are not stainless steel from what I can see. How come they are not rusting.
09/16/2000
[Also, since MK rebuilt the R32s, their roofs are not stainless steel from what I can see. How come they are not rusting.]
Those R-32 roofs are as stainless steel as they day they were built at Budd. The roofs appear to be painted or had a coating applied. If painted, I would like to know how they got paint to adhere to stainless steel. Normally with washings, weather etc, that paint would be coming off by now.
Bill "Newkirk"
Aluminum roof?
09/29/2000
[Aluminum roof?]
Nope !
Bill "Newkirk"
As for the R44's being the fastest 75' cars around: According to motormen who I've talked to who have operated these cars and my own personal observation of radio transmissions, the R44's have lousy, many times long brakes.
I agree that their brakes suck, making for a more herky-jerk ride over the r46. But once those guys get up to speed, watch out.
09/14/2000
[What should go are the old rustbirds (excuse me, Redbirds)]
Well when enough R-142/142A's start flooding the #2,#5 and #6 lines, this will of course send the Redbirds to the scrapper. The transfer of the R-62A's from the #6 will replace those Redbirds. I just came back from Philly. The last time I was there was 2 summers ago when only one set of M-4's was running, the Almond-Joys (M-3) ruled. Now the new M-4's rule and only a few Almond Joys remain. When the new stuff passes the tough tests, they will keep coming until the old stuff disappears. Watch what happens when the R-142's start coming, the redbirds will rapidly thin out.
Bill "Newkirk"
09/14/2000
[What should go are the old rustbirds (excuse me, Redbirds)]
Well when enough R-142/142A's start flooding the #2,#5 and #6 lines, this will of course send the Redbirds to the scrapper. The transfer of the R-62A's from the #6 will replace the #7 Redbirds. I just came back from Philly. The last time I was there was 2 summers ago when only one set of M-4's was running, the Almond-Joys (M-3) ruled. Now the new M-4's rule and only a few Almond Joys remain. When the new stuff passes the tough tests, they will keep coming until the old stuff disappears. Watch what happens when the R-142's start coming, the redbirds will rapidly thin out.
Bill "Newkirk"
WAs just a suggestion.
The R-44/46s have decent speed, and are the best looking cars inside the TA has. But thanks to their 75-foot length they (and their R-68 cousins) will not be shunted off to the Eastern Division when they begin to get really old and unreliable in the future. They'll have to live out their days on the IND and/or the BMT southern division, which I can see really ticking off a lot of people 10-15 years from now, when they start posting messages about having to ride these old cars (old and seemingly slow in the R-68s case) when the J, L, M and Z have all those new cars on their lines.
They can easily end their careers on the C, G and Q lines.
There are too many of them in the current fleet for the R-44.46s to end their careers on only those lines, though as they start to be replaced you're probably right -- the original 75-footers will most likely make their last stand on the G and the C lines.
I only have to pose one question to prove that the R44s/46s will outlive the R32/38/40/42s.
Q:What can the R44s/46s do that the R32s/38s/40s/42s can't?
A:OPTO. The TA's pet monkey. Spreading like a cancer that it is.
Besides, the R38s/40s/42s are on the endangered species list because of bad body rot.
I would not be the least surprised if the life span of the R44/46 came close to that of the R10.
R44/46's are good cars. I think they will be around for at least another 10 years before the TA starts phasing them out.
Their cousins, the M-1's on the LIRR have also lasted along time, but LIRR will start getting new electrics to replace the older M-1's soon.
The R-32s could conceivably get full width cabs by putting a window on the car side opposite the motorman's cab and permanently preventing the first door leaf at that same side from opening. It probably isn't worth the cost, though.
--Mark
>>>...cab and permanently preventing the first door leaf at that same side from opening. <<<
Why would you have to do this? I don't see the logic.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe to prevent the T/O head from being chopped off?
Have a nice weekend !!!
I'm sure a lot of rigorous scientific research went into your
post and although I don't want to spoil anything that might be
pending publication in The Electric Railway Journal, I
have to ask: are your statements concerning relative speed of
these car classes based on observation of the speedometer or
running times between definite points, or by how much the cars
rock, sway and jolt?
As for sending subway cars to the LIRR in the 1930s, huh????
Have you ever noticed that the smoother the ride, the slower it seems to be -- unless you're looking out the window or (gasp) using a watch to actually time it.
Watch it jeff!! People are going to start mistaking you for me. :)
09/14/2000
Train Dude,
What is the word on the R-44/46's? Will the TA forecast 35 years of service before a last visit to Mr.Sarnelli's yard?
Bill "Newkirk"
About 2 years ago, I saw a consultant's report recommending the sequence of cars to e scrapped. I was suprised to see that they recommended retaining just over 1/2 of the R-46 fleet. My impression is that the recommendation for the R-46s will be ignored. The 12 year SMS for the R-46s will be in 2003-2004. That will carry them the 2016. at that point they will be 40 years old. Next stop will be 52 years. As for the R-44's, I have no such hopes
I also assume the LIRR won't be retaining alot of their older M-1 cars. They plan to get an order of new electric cars in soon, anybody know any details on this?
The M-1's are still in reasonable shape, but I assume any cars from the 60s and 70s won't be around much in more than 10 years (this goes for the subway as well)
Can you print the list on Subtalk?
Closest I can think of was that LIRR had a fleet of MP41 cars that were body-wise the same cars as the IRT's 1904 Gibbs cars, of course center doors were never added on the LIRR. These served from roughly 1905 to perhaps the early 50's on the LIRR. So that encompasses the 30's , but they were LIRR property all along, not borrowed.
And ca 1914 LIRR MP-41s did operate under the BRT joint service
arrangement over the WB to Chambers Street.
What are you on!! The R-44 may not be as fast, but the R-46 regularly reaches 60 in the 60th st. tubes! I've never (in recent times) seen the R-38 or even the mighty R-32 do that!
A wheelchair can do 60 in that tube.
LOL
I have been on a train of R-32s that got to 57 mph in the 60th street tube.
--Mark
Trains running in this tunnel get huge assists by gravity. Even creaky R16's running on the RR in the mid 80's could get to 45 MPH
How fast were they going by the time they reached the station at either end of the tunnel? Were they huffing and puffing?
Yup. BTW, the train I was referring to went out of service at 34th St for mechanical reasons.
Why doesn't that surprise me?:-)
Maybe it just said, "Enough already. I quit!"
That was one of the few non-eastern division trips I made on R16's. I made several trips in late 1986 with R16's on the Bradway B line, which were uneventful. In fact, those puppies really motored up 4th Ave. and Broadway.
They must have had an experience similar to what happens to the main character in La Traviata. A sense of rejuvenation just before kicking the bucket altogether.
And the Slant R40's get really fast in the 60th street tubes.
As someone said here before--A wheelchair can reach 50 in those tubes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't rely on those speedometers in the cabs. A lot of them overestimate the speed by 3-4 MPH. The only speedometers that seem to give an accurate reading are the ones installed on the R46's.
Actually, the R-46 & R-68 are the least reliable because they rely on a magnetic pick up to count the teetth on the bull gear to determine the speed. The variations in the size of the wheels on the #1 axle can produce a reading that is as much as 2-3 MPH off. There is a means of recalibration which is supposed to be done during inspection. By contrast, all other contracts use a dopler system that is not dependent on the re-calibration of the wheel size. These are tested via tuning fork and are supposed to be held to a 1 MPH tolerance.
How did the original R-46 speedometers function? I still remember them.
I believe that the original speedometer worked off of the axle generator that was part of the ATO package. 'twas before my time.
R46's are faster than R44's.
The R46's on the F sometimes reach 50 on the Queens IND.
I saw one do 46 last week.
They're capable of 80 MPH. It's a shame the TA chooses to hold them back.
Peace,
ANDEE
When purchased in 1976, the R-46s were capable of 80 MPH (actually I believe it was 70 MPH but why quibble). However, since then, they have been modified and the propulsion system has been completely replaced. With the field shunting restored, I doubt that the current R-46 could do more than 58 MPH on level, tangent track.
09/16/2000
Getting a little off topic about fast vs. slow R-44/46's, I went down to Philly this past Wednesday and Thursday. After reading some comments on this board about the Broad Street express flying down the tracks south of Olney, I was astounded. Comparing the BMT Broadway subway to the 4 track Broad St. subway and ignoring the difference in station tiles, the expess I was on had to be doing around sixty! Now compare this to R-68's on a rerouted (N) running up Broadway, like night and day. How does SEPTA do it? No timers like here. The express was going so fast, the columns were like a blurr! I kid you not!
Bill "Newkirk"
The Broad Street Subway, is, as far as I'm concerned, SEPTA's best line. They often go up to 64 MPH on the express when a little late. Even the locals pass 45 often. As for there being no timers, thats not entirely true. Signals have an "S" on them, and are generally single headed. They are timed to the speed of the train. I believe that signals with a "T" are timed to a schedule. There are a couple entering and leaving Olney Station on the express tracks, and an especially annoying one on the southbound tracks that cause trains to go from 60 MPH, to 20 MPH, then back up to 40 MPH before entering Erie Station. This happens a little south of Girard. Othen than that, the trains are, as you said they were, very fast, and noisy.
To say the least I'm a bit disturbed that NYCT seemed slower than ever on my last few visits. Even the fast track on the IRT doesn't seem to host many fast trains anymore; I can still remember riding the original IRT trains in my younger days and they flew. Admit it or not the SMEE's flew when new too, but were pretty weak by the 70's. Are all these slowdowns the aftermath of the Willy B crash?
Not just my idea, sounds like there's a lot of agreement that NYCT is the slowest in the country. I still like it, but why has it been slowed? I don't think it's anybody's imagination.
Yes, all the TA trains have been purposely slowed down as a result of the W'burg Br. crash. The NTSB ruled that the signal system (as of the date of the crash) was flawed. The signals in most spots are spaced too close together and could not guarantee that if a train were to run a red signal at top speed that it would not rear-end the train in front of it before coming to a stop. Therefore, the TA set the energy conservation to "local" on all equipment to slow down the trains and reduce the chance of a similar rear-end collision from happening again.
As far as speed, the fastest that a TA train now can go on flat ground(Rockaway flats) is 43 MPH on average.
I have a question as far as the train speeds in New York. Yes you are all correct that the subways on the worlds greatest system are very very slow. And that is really a shame. But i have been on a few fan trips using the older cars Lo-V etc. And maybe I am wrong but those trains were really moving at a good clip. So why does the TA allow these trains to travel at those speeds and the revenue trains to crawl? And to think people pay for this so called rapid transit.
It's nice that SEPTA can beat someone at something! The Broad St express run is one I highly recommend for anyone wanting a taste of 'rapid' transit. On the same topic, I've noticed that my other favorite ride, the El between 15th and 30th, seems to be much slower than normal lately, for some reason.
Instead of placing a speed governor on the trains instead of switching the energy conservation as a "quick fix", the trains have been having more motor problems than ever before(burnouts, dropouts, etc.). Most likely, the nostalgia equipment was left alone because it would be harder to fix. Also, those trains are rarely used so it's very unlikely that those trains will be switched over.
09/17/2000
[How does SEPTA do it? No timers like here]
Isaac, I wasn't aware of timers on the Broad St. line. A fine example of a timer would be on the northbound (A) express at 23rd St. Those expresses slow down where the local even beats it out. I was told there was a derailment there years ago and that's why the slow go.
But you brought up a good point about Broad St., their "timers" are geared to the speed of the train.
Bill "Newkirk"
So is this timer timed to the speed of the train, to any particular schedule, or is it just a closed block signal that is horribly annoying?
Another reason that a signal upgrade is important, folks. About a year ago, someone wrote to the New York times that the signal system should not be changed. Comparing NYC to the Broad Street Line (despite their antiquated system, also) tells of why something needs to be done with the signals.
Actually, that 23 St. timer on the A has been there for at least 12 years(14 St. used to be my home station).
You there is a timer on the northbound express track at 23rd St? If so, then it's been there probably since the line opened. Northbound A trains have crawled past 23rd for as long as I've been riding them, going all the back to 1967. Last fall, a northbound train of R-38s sailed past at 25 mph, something even the Thundering Herd, the R-10s, never did.
I have another question as far the speed of New Yorks subways go. With CBTC coming sometime in the future will this signal system be able to speed up the trains a great deal? Also is there any type of back-up if CBTC goes down for some reason?
CBTC Back-up: T/O looks out the front and slows down when he sees taillights, a grade, or curve ;·)
I was actually wondering the same thing. If it is proven successful on the L, the Queens Blvd. line or Lex ave line should be next.
In some ASC (automatic speed control) systems(such as Moscow line 1), they have kept the old signal system.
They should keep a few wayside signals, at curves and stations, in case CBTC fails. They should also keep all the trippers, because that is a significantly safer and more reliable system, proven by almost a century of experience.
With CBTC, there should no longer be a need for timers on straightways, hopefully speeding service. There are different sets of timers between Continental and Roosevelt, two of which are unnecessary, and timed at about 20 MPH; and one of which is necessary, and timed at a decent 25 MPH.
Grade timers are very overused in the NYC system, and many T/O's do not understand them correctly - they see a red signal, think that it means stop and slow down the train to 10 mph for a 35 mph GT, unlike, for example on the PATH, where the train goes through the timers so precisely that sometimes you can't see them clear. And, the PATH has no speedometers.
And an unrelated CBTC question: will the system be centralized, with some one computer controlling all the trains, or decentralized, like now, with each signal knowing only about its nearest neighbors?
As far as your grade timer statement: the vast majority of GT's are set to clear on average 5 mph slower than the posted GT speed limit.
If you try to pass a GT 30 AT 30 mph, you're lock city to hit it. Most spots, you have to clear it at 25 mph. At some you may have to go as slow as 20 mph.
And the T/O's are taught NEVER to challenge a home signal on grade time. If one thing goes wrong and you hit the home signal(and you can't cover it up), you're facing probable demotion to your prior title.
As far as timing timers precisely like the PATH, the only TA line that you can do that on with confidence is the L.
Actually, the newer timers on the NYCT system are set for a speed somewhat higher than that which is posted. An example would be on the Brighton Line, southbound between Seventh Avenue and Prospect Park. They're signed for GT40, but they're designed to clear up to 44 mph. Do they? I don't know -- I've never seen anyone approach them at a speed anywhere near 40, let alone 44.
David
GT40? You sure? That's what the balancing speed on the cars are. If the limit is the balancing speed, there would be no point for a timer. Cars can barely make it that fast. I'll check them tomorrow.
running on...
or
At the time the signal system was installed, the balancing speed was somewhat higher than it is now. Nevertheless, even under "no field shunting," it is possible for NYC subway cars to exceed 40 MPH. Incidentally (as I've posted before), the reason for that series of grade timers (just north of Prospect Park on the southbound Brighton Line) is to prevent trains from overshooting the Prospect Park platform and fouling moves from the southbound Franklin Avenue Shuttle track to the northbound Shuttle track via the Brighton Line tracks -- moves that are hardly ever made.
David
Trains can easily hit 40 in that area between 7th Ave. and Prospect Park going southbound. I very rarely work the Brighton Line but from what I can remember, 35 mph usually does the trick and I think the last timer is a fast one. But like I said, I rarely work that section so I cannot say for sure. But 40 mph is easily attainable, THAT I do know.
They're capable of 80 MPH.
The Wheelchairs????
oh please, i was up in hornell when they were rebuilding the 44/46s
we added the ecam systems to the 44s never touched the 46s. by the time i got up there a majority of the 46s were done. they used some pretty complicated equipment on these cars. any way i'm willing to bet you that the 32/38/40s can all run past these 44/46s
Except that they don't, especially the R44, which is as fast as any 60' car running today.
I will see for myself next month.
the r44 just slowly rambles
You haven't ridden an SIRT R-44.
--Mark
Or ANY R44. The R44 is as fast as any 60' car running today.
I can't seem to drag the link here but go to www.fsrail.com to see the latest. Looks like the product may be on the shelves this month.
Hello all,
A while back I had mentioned that I was thinking about planning a European field trip visiting trams, etc. around Europe. I found a travel agency (of the Ffestiniog Railway in the U.K.) that can design custom rail-oriented trips for small groups. So, is anyone really seriously interested in such a trip?
I'm thinking Swiss mountain electric railways, some German cities (Wuppertal-home of the world's oldest monorail, Koln, Munich, Frankfurt, Berlin), and Vienna to begin with. That might be too much for a whole group.
I suspect the cost might get into the $3,000 area for the whole package, maybe 8-10 days worth of travelling, but I won't know until I do a little more planning.
What do people think? Discussion on the board; serious parties can write me directly.
-Dave
$3000!!!! Here, I went to France and Englande in 1996 and and the plane fare was 660$ round trip and expenses were about $400 after being split b/t 3 people and the rail pas was an additional $180 each. The trip lasted 8 days.
For the best and most economical trip you'll want to hit London, Berlin and Paris and spend the rest of the time zipping around on trains w/ your rail pass. 2 star hotels provide an affordable place to stay and you buy food staples at supermarkerts for later construction on the train. try to avoid Swiss and Austrian railways. They provide a nice view for tourists, but not much real action for railfans. You'll want to travel b/t large rail hub cities, stop over for pictures and then get on the next train. Unlike Amtrak a pass will get you on the "Metroliner" (ie TGV and possibly the ICE) but they won't pay for the EuroStar. You'll also want to go in June cause it dosen't get dark until 10PM!!! Most main lines have service equilivent to the weekday NEC and branch lines have service akin to Suturday commuter rail. Finally the best trips are those you plan yourself. Don't let the travel agency bundle you into hotels or planned tours. You're only throwing you money away.
PS: Make sure you take someone who can speak French and German!
Well, I agree with you that European travel can be done cheaply but lets look at it. (I've already been to London and Paris so I'm not about to plan a tour to those cities. Plus I think if you take a look at the variety of traction on the Swiss mountain railways -- and if you let them know a group of railfans is coming-- I think you'll change your mind that there's not much for railfans to do there.) Remember the "best" trip is in the eye of the beholder.
1. Open-jaw airfare is not cheap especially not during the peak period (May-October). A quick search of fares as of today to travel in May, 2001, from Newark to Geneva, then home from Vienna. (CO to Paris, AF to Geneva; return Swissair to Zurich, AA to Newark)
===> $1065 per person
2. Hotel stays. Staying cheap is fine but if we're travelling specifically to visit urban transit systems and travelling by train I want my hotel to be close to the main station(s) and (IMHO) to have a private bathroom. Even assuming you could get rooms like this in city centers for an average of $75/night, which is unlikely, 10 nights @ $75. (Trust me, you don't want to have to lug your stuff too far from the train stations or try to cram it all into a tram to get to your hotel. Also, I'm not a kid anymore or a student and I'm not willing to backpack/hostel my way around.) I really think the average per night is going to be more like $125, but for the sake of "cheap" argument:
==> $750
3. 8 day intercity rail pass (from your post)
==> $180
4. Intracity day passes for transit. Lets assume the day pass is somewhere between the $4 NYC price and the $7 London price and say 9 days of passes at $5.50. Probably a low estimate since $49 will get you a 7-day pass for London. You'd need two for a 2 week trip.
==> $49
5. Food, souvenirs. Figure $20 a day to eat cheap. Souvenirs vary. Say $100 for the trip.
==> $300
Total (estimated) ==> $2345/pp
I'm not planning to use an agency to coordinate tours but we still need hotels and other transportation. Plus, the one I am thinking of specializes in rail-based tours. So why not at least get a quote on a package right?
-Dave
#1 Don't make those connecting flights. If your doing on a railfan trip take the train AMAP. Stick it to the air lines!
#2 You can fit 2/3 people in each hotel room. Thus cutting lodgeing expenses in 1/3. Also you need to remember nites spent on the train.
#3 A 4 days of travel pass was $180, but a 3 day was like 160 and it was scaled from there with a 7 day pass like 240 or something.
#4 Lugging stuff isn't that bad. 2 9th graders and a middle aged French ex-patriot lugged personal bags + 80 pounds worth for copper pots through 1 Bus, 2 Metro connections and 2 RER connections from near the Gare St. Lazairre to CDG airport. To this day I still don't know how we made the flight.
Ask yourself "What level of accomidations would I want for a domestic railfan trip." and "Would I take an airplane to go railfanning in Chicago". Euorpe should be no different.
> Ask yourself "What level of accomidations would I want for
> a domestic railfan trip." and "Would I take an airplane to
> go railfanning in Chicago". Euorpe should be no different.
I agree with this statement but I suspect I disagree with your answers to those questions!
-Dave
$75/night in cities other than London or Paris is not unreasonable. Fifteen years ago, I stayed in every city you mentioned + Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Zurich for $35-40 per night.
From my trip we stayed in little 2 star mom and pop places and didn't cost more than 40/50 a nite for the 3 of us. On our last 2 days we stayed at a better place that was like c. 100 a nite for the 3 of us. Maybe I'm just at that age where sleeping on floors, in cars and in Amfleet seats is not only fun, but pretty comfortable (once you find the leg rest anyway).
Um, consider that some persons may not be comfortable sharing a room with what is essentially a stranger. And hotel room rates are already based on double occupancy, since they assume people are traveling with a spouse/significant other.
-Hank
Two to three people a room??? Lugging stuff isn't that bad??? IS YOU OUTS YO MIND?!?!? First of all, what if someone in the group is a heavy snorer and you're used to silence. Personally, I refuse to share a hotel room with anyone except my wife. I'm sure that I'm not alone on that assumption. And as far as lugging things around, why would you want to work on a vacation? I go on a three week european vacation every year. Two years ago we kept our stuff pretty much stationary and we had a blast. Last year we decided to lug our stuff around and it put a huge damper on our trip. The worst thing that you can do is come back from vacation feeling worn out like we did last year. If I wanna be worn out, I'd rather do 4 trips on the E and get paid for it than spend money on a vacation.
While doing the aforementioned things might be fine for you, how do you think the other members of the entourage would feel? You have to consider things like that when booking a group excursion.
However, I do agree with you on one thing. Once you get to Europe you should stay on the ground and take the trains everywhere. After all, that's the purpose of the trip isn't it?
First of all this isn't a vacation, its a railfan trip. I fast paced dash around Europe riding on anything that uses steel rails.
As subfans in particular we are all used to being jammed in a confining space with about 100 other strangers. 2-3 people in a hotel room should be something a-kin to heaven. You should also be so tired from jet-lag and 'fanning that an IRA bombing shouldn't wake you up. Also a railfan must remain mobile and you should pack no more than a backpack and a duffle bag.
... and a clothespin for the nose :)
--Mark
You're going to be in Europe remmeber? Consider it a form of camoflague.
Dude, if I'm going to Europe, and I'm not going to work, it's called a vacation. On my vacation, I will do what I want to do. Railfanning does not require you to eliminate your creature comforts. Jail does. If I want to go to jail, it'll be for Patricide. I might just want to escape to Europe now, it'll give me a good excuse not to wait on my dad.
(He fell off a ladder at work and totally destroyed his left knee.)
-Hank
My sympathies to both you and your father :-) As the resident bionic man on this board (I've been known to set off airport metal detectors, there's so much of it in my right leg) I know what he's going through, and Anon_e_mouse Jr. can sympathize with your plight since he's frequently in it himself as a result of my ongoing problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, with some luck (knock on particle board desk) nothing else will happen in the next few months. In 2 days, My father fell, and within 15 minutes of each other, my brother an I were involved in seperate car accidents. I'm afraid to open my eyes to see what might hit next.
-Hank
Look at it this way, you've gotten all of your bad luck out of the way at one time you're due for an extended time of free sailing. Works for me. Good Luck!
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Andee: Say a good word for me on that score. I got this stomach virus in late July and it still hasn't completely gone away. I still get light headed once in a while and when I went on my first run in weeks and five days yesterday my legs got sore and they still are sore. I hope some of that good luck continues my way. No railfan should be in any way but in good standing. Right?
#1 Don't make those connecting flights. If your doing on a railfan trip take the train AMAP. Stick it to the air lines!
#2 You can fit 2/3 people in each hotel room. Thus cutting lodgeing expenses in 1/3. Also you need to remember nites spent on the train.
#3 A 4 days of travel pass was $180, but a 3 day was like 160 and it was scaled from there with a 7 day pass like 240 or something.
#4 Lugging stuff isn't that bad. 2 9th graders and a middle aged French ex-patriot lugged personal bags + 80 pounds worth for copper pots through 1 Bus, 2 Metro connections and 2 RER connections from near the Gare St. Lazairre to CDG airport. To this day I still don't know how we made the flight.
Ask yourself "What level of accomidations would I want for a domestic railfan trip." and "Would I take an airplane to go railfanning in Chicago". Euorpe should be no different.
Thanks, we heard it the first time in post 152522. Trying to win the award for "double posts with the most time in between"? :-)
I must have left the window open and hit post again by mistake.
I've always heard that the best way to plan a trip's finances is to make a careful analysis of the amount of money you'll need, estimating everything on the high side for safety's sake and adding a fudge factor of at least 20%.
Then double it.
If you leave before May 31 the airfares are much lower (NY-Munich round-trip on Air France is $723, but that is bound to go up in the enxt few months; to Paris is much lower). You can get a Europass (good for France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain and Germany) for much less than a Eurailpass (good for all of Europe), and you can add Austria to the Europass for not much more. I think the Europass is also available for second-class travel (Eurailpass only for first class). You can get good deals on hotels on the internet and plan your whole itinerary without hiring the Ffestiniog Railway (a wonderful line, by the way). That's the way I always do it (and often don't even book hotels before I leave, but with a group you have to). Recalculate!
About the airfares: there seem to be two tiers of prices, 1)Frankfurt and West, 2) Munich and east. If you can land in Frankfurt or (maybe)Zurich, you get the cheapest price. If you take Lufthansa they have through baggage DB rail connections right from the airport S-bahn station to all the main western Germany cities, like Köln, Nürnberg, etc.
You might even want to visit Hamburg where there are many elevated sections and three systems, the U-Bahn (3 lines), the S-bahn (3 lines of which have very frequent service, the others not much service), and the A-bahn (modern, mostly suburban, like the U-bahn). Each one has a web page, BTW. Nürnberg and Stuttgart also have a U-bahn and S-bahn system.
The Wuppertal line, called the Schwebebahn is not even exactly a monorail, it is a "hanging rail line", which is what Schwebebahn means. It hangs from a monorail.
Also, I believe Mainz, Mannheim, and Ludwigshafen, still have meter-gauge tram lines and Frankfurt's U-bahn lines are both subway, elevated and on the street (even trains that start underground have high-level street platforms in the center island of a main street (U1,U2.U3).
Strasbourg, France, has a tram line, too, now. It's like a miniature version of Paris, a medium-size very French city with a hnuge cathedral, many narrow streets, and a few grand boulevards, but not overwhelming to visit.
In Vienna, besides the many U-bahn lines, there is a tram subway in the SE corner of the city. I think lines 62 and 18 go there. I missed it but it's easy to figure out about by looking at their web page.
Every German-speaking city (meaning: Germany, Austria, Switzerland)publishes for purchase at the railroad station newsstands and at the ticket office a timetable book for every train (U-bahn, S-bahn), tram, bus, and ferry in the city, including a map with it. These books are the size of thick paperback novels usually and cost about $2.00. I got one from Munich one year that looked like an American small town phone book. The one from Hamburg looked like "War and Peace". If you do it right, you can line a full bookshelf with timetables books from Frankfurt (RMV), Hamburg (HVV), Munich (MVV), Zurich, Vienna, etc. The "Verkehrs-Verbund" collection :-) Just ask for the Fahrplan. I used to go to Frankfurt a lot (mostly in winter, unbelieveably), and have a set from 1980-1985 of winter timetables.
Jersey Mike raises some good points. Maybe a trip just to England would be better. The cost won't be any higher (may be lower), language isn't a problem, and there certainly is enough to see there between the rail museums and the active lines. Maybe one of our British contributors can act as host/tour guide!
Yeah, but Germany's got tons of streetcar/tram lines in its cities and towns and very interesting mailine rail cars such as the Bombardier Talent DMUs and Adtranz RegioShuttles. The Saarbahn has some nice LRVs as do Potsdam and Freiburg with their new Siemens Combino trams. And of course there's the high-speed ICE trains. Maybe a trip just to Germany might be even better, but of course there's the language thing.
Not to mention all those US Military bases I can walk into since I'm still connected with Dept of Defense.
I'm interested, but it'll have to wait until late next year. I've got a wedding to go to...
Oh, Dave, if you go, keep a close eye on your wallet!
-Hank :)
I don't know that Frankfurt is worth it, but Karlsruhe (dual-system streetcars running onto DB mainline tracks) and Zwickau (ditto with diesel LRV's) are. There are also some nice interurban trolley lines in Germany and Austria (e.g., Thueringerwaldbahn, Salzburger Lokalbahn, Stern & Haffel). I'm going to most of these places in the next few months or have been to them recently. It's off to Switzerland Nov. 13-23 for a new look at most of the mountain lines there. If you haven't left yet, I'll be glad to submit a full report!
Whenever I'm waiting for a Manhattan-bound 8th Avenue train at Jay Street, I first look down the tunnel to see if there's anything coming. Then, I go outside of this window-enclosed room located on the platform. Inside that room, there is a board that shows the positions of all trains between 7th Avenue/9th Street and Delancey or Classon Avenue on the F and G lines, and between Nostrand Av and Chambers Street on the A and C lines, and includes the trackage to the Transit Museum. Most times I stand there watching the red lights on this board, and usually there are lights lit up anywhere between Nostrand and Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and follow that light until it gets between Hoyt and Jay, and then walk to the appropriate stop board, depending on whether it's an A or C train, or the 3rd car of the train if the A train has R44 cars.
Anyway, my idea is this: have monitors on the station platform that show the locations of all the trains within a 4-7 station range of the station on which the platform is located, and include information on the trains that are occupying a section of track. Maybe link it up to a web site to produce real-time locations on any train in the system. Maybe later it would advance to include the individual cars on the train.
It's certainly better to hear those announcements "The next [garbled]-bound [garbled] train is at [garbled][garbled], [garbled] stations away," or hearing about a train you have no interest in taking. For example:
You're waiting for a Manhattan-bound 7 train at 74th Street, when you hear:
"Ladies and gentlemen, the next Main Street-bound 7 train is at 61st Street, 2 stations away,"
You have no interest in taking a 7 train to Main Street. You then say to the loudspeaker, "where's the next Manhattan-bound 7 train?" You get no response.
These monitors would more or less eliminate these problems.
Many years ago the TA was asked about putting up monitors similiar to the ones in London which displayed information about upcoming trains. They said that it would cost billions of dollars and would not be cost effective.
I wrote them and suggested that instead of a whole new system, they could tie into the current system used for tower displays and put in repeaters at the end of the platforms and/or token booths. I never even got an acknowledgment.
Have a nice day !!!
An interlocking model board only covers the interlocking and everything up to the block in front of the distant signal which is not applicable for all stations. Also most of the interlocking machines are old GRS or US&S types and you'd need to splice in many different connections for a repeter board.
Would the newer installations require as much work?
Isn't there a place where all the information throughout the system is displayed? If so, why don't they base the system on that?
Command doesn't even know where the trains are, why should the customers know??
Anyway Jay Street will be moved to Manhattan where there is supposed to be a new command center that will show all train movement. We will see.
The current system more along the lines of a "paper" railroad. Each interlocking tower route the trains as they come by the orders then in hand. They are only responsible for the trains in their control and have no knowledge of trains outside their control. Grand Central tower has CTC control over a much bigger area, but it still has no knowledge of other trains. In a railroad under full dispatcher control the status is all blocks is digitally sent to a control centre and in that type of system you can have remote train location displays. I am a big signaling fan and I hope that the NYCS never converts to CTC.
That's not entirely true for NYCT. All mainline tracks are
indicated on a model board in the nearest tower. The only
tracks that are off the board are some yard tracks. The model
boards in the towers extend far beyond the interlocking limits
and sometimes cover blocks that are within the limits of the
next tower.
However, getting back to the original poster: I'm not sure when
you suggested the idea. The TA has been installing fiber optic
cabling that will eventually allow them to at least have track
indicators from anywhere in the system digitally accessible from
anywhere else in the system. In the previous generation of
technology, having model board repeaters would have meant a lot
of large bundles of wires, far more expensive than the station
annunciators (which have largely fallen into disrepair) which only
required 1 or 2 wires per track per station.
I made the suggestion at least 10 (maybe more) years ago !!!
Have a nice day !!
With the new, unified fiber-optic data system you speak of, implementing a passenger-info system like that should be relatively cheap and easy.
I think something like London's implementation would be ideal. Your average Joe doesn't care where the trains are - they just want to know how long they have to wait. London's system shows exactly that - it displays the next two trains due to arrive in that station and how many minutes before each one arrives. When I last visted London, I found it very informative and helpful.
Additionally, a web site as suggested, showing complete graphical train location information, would be even easier and cheaper to implement. Also, it would really give the MTA a forward-thinking, tech-savvy image. (And it would be so darn cool for us railfans!)
There are so many ways the MTA could harness the new fiber-optic network. Real-time audio and video throughout the system will allow for all sorts of new, cost-effective passenger-information and passenger-safety systems. They should also be able to handle emergencies better, and will be less reliant on radio-based communications, which can be subject to interference. (I don't know if that's a current problem or not.)
Another thing I hope they're doing is laying tons of extra fiber-optic lines. The biggest cost associated with a such a project is labor. The MTA is sitting on a revenue goldmine - hundreds of miles of ROW spanning the most populated corridors in the biggest, densest city in the country. Communications companies are so desparate to find places to lay fiber, they're now laying fiber *inside* WATER MAINS throughout the city!
The point is, the MTA could make billions from an exclusive contract with a company like Worldcom or Qwest to lay fiber in its tunnels. Any such company would gladly build an extensive fiber network for the MTA for free, and pay a billion in cash, if it could have exclusive access to subway tunnels for laying its own fiber network. Or the MTA could build its own network, lay tons of extra fiber, then resell it to comm. companies. Either way, it stands to make a killing.
The MTA probably already realized this and acted on it a long time ago. But if not, it's a huge, huge opportunity. Just a thought.
I believe the MTA is leasing some right of way to private
telecom companies. At least within Manattan, the squeeze for
available underground routes is terrible. Companies are pulling
in _abandoned_ water mains, such as the old high-pressure fire
hydrant lines. Fiber is also being run inside Con Ed ducts alongside
high-voltage feeders.
I also believe that train arrival status boards are on the long-term
goal list of the MTA.
In San Francisco, MUNI has computerized annoucements every few minutes telling how long each train will be coming into the station. On BART, I noticed at Colma station, outside of fare control, a TV monitor that showed the San Fran portion leg of BART and where each train was and its destination.
according to eyewitless news reporter heypaul floranges, the new r142 subway cars will be recalled due to fault door and brake parts... here is ta spokesman al ways o'leery..."ford needed the wheels to replace faulty ones built by firestone"... these changes will affect riders on the 2 and 6 lines, as well as the shareholders of kamakazi rail car incorporated...
according to eyewitless news reporter heypaul floranges, the new r142 subway cars will be recalled due to fault door and brake parts... here is ta spokesman al ways o'leery..."ford needed the wheels to replace faulty ones built by firestone"... these changes will affect riders on the 2 and 6 lines, as well as the shareholders of kamakazi rail car incorporated...
I'm new to HTML so this was the sound link to the heypaul recalls
http://members.nbci.com/enginebrake/r-9-modern.wav
Before clicking on the link below, please note that you need to have Microsoft Internet Explorer on your computer to experience this.
Click
Since I never got the chance to ride the IRT in the Bronx this summer and sample all that good Italian food I heard permeates in the certain areas of that borough. I do remember that all IRT lines surface in the Bronx to their terminal destinations while they're underground in Brooklyn, except for the #3. What I want to know is what IRT line goes underground in the upper Bronx before resurfacing again. Is it the 1, 2, 5, or 6. I only know it is now the 4 or the 9. Can someone clue me in?
It's not the 1 either, since it and the 9 are one and the same. My belief is that it is the Dyre Ave branch of the 5. It goes under a park, but in a cut-and-cover tunnel.
-Hank
Hank, you're right that the 1 and 9 never go underground in the Bx. They cross the Harlem River on the upper level of the Broadway Bridge and remain on the El all the way to 242nd Street.
As for the other IRT lines, the 3 and 7 never get to the Bx, while the 2, 4, 5, and 6, each crosses the river in a tunnel and has at least one subway station before going above ground. (IIRC, the 4 has only two stations before the portal south of Yankee Stadium, while the others have more stops before reaching the surface.)
You are correct. The 5 train goes underground after the Morris PArk train station, makes an underground stop at Pelham Pkway, and then resurfaces after Pelham Pkwy. i did some great railfanning there after school one day. The Pelham Pkwy station, though, was hard to find, since it's not on Pelham Pkway.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
The 1 and 9 are elevated their entire lengths through the Bronx. They escape the undergound at the Dyckman Street stop in Manhattan.
The 2 and 5 escape the underground north of the 3 Av-149 St station.
The 4 escapes the underground near Yankee Stadium, before the Yankee Stadium stop.
The 5 line's Morris Park is part a railroad el, part underground, and its Pelham Pkwy station is underground. Then escapes the underground between Pelham Pkwy and Gun Hill Rd.
The 6 comes above ground between Hunts Point Avenue and Whitlock Avenue.
To all those who responded to my question about the tunnel in the Bronx, thanks. I now know that the #5 is the train that goes underground for a short time before surfacing again.
Got the latest straphangers newsletter, and they are providing a link to the R142/142A schedules we have posted on this site.
-Hank
Is a copy available somewhere ?
Have a nice day !!!
Today, during the PM rush, (approx 6:15 pm) a D train was on the dekalb bypass track and went ahead of my N train at pacific on the express track. We then entered pacific and went express on the local track until 59th st. At 59th, the next stop would be stillwell. On the express track, a Q train came in making all stops on the sea beach line. Was their some sort of problem on the brighton line that caused the trains to be ran on the N line?
You must have been on the express track from the DeKalb bypass to north of 36th St. and on the local track from 36th to 59th cause there is no switch available from 3 track to 1 track until north of 36th St. Check the track maps on this website to see for yourself.
And there could have been two problems which caused D's and Q's to go down 4th Av. Yes, there could have been some sort of a problem on the Brighton line(BIE, etc.) or there could have been a switch problem north of DeKalb Av. which could have prevented D's and Q's from entering the DeKalb Av. station which leads to the Brighton line tracks.
no, like i said we were on the LOCAL track from pacific st to 59th st.
Does Fred know about this?:-) Brighton trains running on the Sea Beach?
09/14/2000
[Does Fred know about this?:-) Brighton trains running on the Sea Beach? ]
If he does, he'll be on the "red-eye" lickity split !
Bill "Newkirk"
I just got back from the grocery store, where I saw in the NY Post, a story about 8 transit workers who were almost killed while working late at night in the tunnel between Bowling Green and Borough Hall. One worker who was interviewd said that the train whizzed right by him. The Manhattan bound 4 train was switched to a brooklyn bound track, because of track inspections on the Manhattan bound track. They are blaming it on some supervisor, who never told the train rerouter that men were working in that tunnel.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTinfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Since I did not see the article and I was not on the scene of the incident, I will not comment on the specifics. However, safety is an proactive situation. If you are working on the tracks and you do not set up lamps, portable trips and flagmen in accordance with the published rules, shame on you or sometimes shame on your survivors and heirs. It's easy to blame a supervisor but no supervisor will ever order an employee to work unsafely. If he/she does, they should be jailed.
From what I understand, the track workers' supervisor set up lights and flagmen facing the direction trains normally come from and reported their presence to a dispatcher. The dispatcher didn't notify his supervisor, and a train was sent wrong-railing down that track. Is it SOP for track crews to set up lights and flagmen facing the "wrong" direction on track that is typically one-way?
Mark
As i said, I had not read the article but based on what has been posted here, I have many questions. First, if single tracking was going on, here should have been a TSS, at least on the scene. There are a few positive ways in which traffic direction is assured (baton being the most common). However, the big question I'd have is this. If one track was being used for single tracking, the other, presumably was clossed for maintenance. Why then was the track crew working on the open track when the other track was closed? There are many things that do not add up.
I read the article in the Post. It said that one track was closed for a "routine inspection" and that the workers were replacing light bulbs on the other track.
Who schedules these things?
To see the article, click here , then click on the image of yesterday's front page to select yesterday's paper. It's the lead article.
Just shows you how dangerous the work is.
I've been riding the head end of a slant N train into the Montague Tunnel, the T/O went right by the first flashing yellow sets of lanterns. I heard "OH mY gosh, Holy (Expletive deleted)"and some heavy breaking (nose into storm door type). Now I know why they always put two yellow laterns or yellow flags out. We were slow enough and sounding the horn by the next set of yellow flashers.
About 18 months ago, I posted a piece about the plight of the train operator working at night. I was riding the E train from Penn Station out to Jamaica. during the trip, we passed more than a dozen work gangs. Some were protected properly with lamps and flags while others, due to the nature of the work, were not. One thing I noticed was that due to the late hours, the monotony and the frequency of occurrence, an operator can easily be lulled into a state where he might not 'see' the yellow lamps. That's why track gangs need to set up properly but must also be vigilant about their own safety.
Well awhile ago I was on an R38 Far Rockaway bound "A" train after leaving RockawayBlvd as the T.O. didn't notice warning flags while rounding the curve. We went through at full speed and scared workers ran for cover, one of them was very close to the front of the train, barely escaping being hit. Amazingly, the T.O. did NOT blow his horn until the last minute, and there was no B.I.E., not even an investigation.
As i said, things do not add up. If single tracking was going on, this would have been covered by a GO. There should have been lots of supervision in the area and everyone would be alerted to the single tracking. In addition, no work of any kind should have been allowed in that area. Trust me, there is more to the story than what was reported in the media. Someone screwed up big time.
I read the paper and according to rules, all departments are guilty here. The T/O when operating the FIRST TRAIN against the flow of traffic is required to operate at restricted speed thoughout the entire length of the tubes. The lighting department, although authorized to work in the area should have called control center before fouling the area they were working, that is unless control fell asleep, an unlikely scenario. Something doesn't add up by them being allowed to work there. Also, if they had protective CONSTRUCTION flagging in BOTH directions, and was vigilant for movement in both directions, they would not have to "scatter for their lives" in this incident. Any time a gang of more than 2 employees in on the right of way, flagging MUST be put up before the work commenced. RTO will take the fall big time as the dispatcher did not do his job. Note: this is only following the context of the story with rule book interpretation.
Rule on any RR I know of is expect a train at any time any track in either direction. But in the case of wrong railing this is definitely an unexpected move when a track is NORMALLY dedicated for one direction. But the rules can be used against anybody when convenient.
Information Current as of 9/13 at 3pm:
R-110A:
This train will return to revenue service sometime in 2001. The issue with this train is that they failed brake testing in it's testing days. The TA is awaiting the proper parts from Kawasaki for this train. When the parts are recieved, the R-110A set will get a full overhaul and makeover. Thank god, this train will not have the same fate as the R-11/R-34 fiasco.
R-110B:
This train will continue to run daily service on the (C) Line until it dies.
R-142/R-142A Primary Order:
The 30-day clock is at the 18 day mark according to Operations. Bombarider and Kawasaki sets continue to be delivered to the E180th Street and 239th Street Yards. So far Four Bombardier Sets and Three Kawasaki sets are on the property including the ones in revenue testing.
R-142/R-142A Option Order:
This option order for 320 additional cars will be taken according to operations to complete the full retirement of the R36 Class Corona Redbirds. Estimate to take place sometime in early 2002.
R-143 CBTC Order:
The first R-143 set is due on the property from Kawasaki in February 2001 for testing on the (L) line. The other cars will follow in June/July of 2001.
R-149/R-151 Order:
This order for 150 A division cars are on the plans. These cars have not been designed fully yet, but are worded to be twins to the R142 boys. These 150 cars will suppliement service in the A division to increase daily service. Estimate to take place sometime in 2004/2005.
R-160 Order:
This is the next major purchase of subways, 660 to be exact. These cars are in design planning and is worded not to resemble the R-110B nor the R-143. These cars will have a design of thier own. Let's hope they are not another R-40 "Let's be ultra futuristic" fiasco.
____________________
Plans for the 63rd Street Connection (FROM THE HORSES MOUTH FINALLY)
Starting in November of 2000, the (F) train will beging night and weekend service via the 63rd Street Connection.
When the 63rd Street Connection is "fully" operational, the system will operate as such:
(A) Normal Service
(B) Bedford Park or 145th Street to 34th Street via CPW Lcl
(C) Normal Service
(D) 205th Street to 34th Street via CPW Express
(E) Normal Service
(F) 179th Street to Coney Island via 63rd St Connection, Culver & 6th Ave Exp
(G) Court Square to Smith & 9th Street via Crosstown Local
(J) Normal Service
(L) Normal Service (CBTC by this time)
(M) Normal Service
(N) Coney Island to Ditmas Avenenue via Manny B South & Bway Local
(Q) Brighton Beach to 57th Street via Brighton Local & Bway Express
Brighton Beach to 57th Street via Brighton & Bway Express
(R) Normal Service
All (S) Normal Service
(V) 71st & Continental Ave to 2nd Avenue via 53rd St Connection & 6th Ave Exp
(W) Coney Island to Ditmas Avenue via West End & Broadway Local
(Z) Normal Service
All information given in this post is direct from the Operations at Livingston Street and is current as of today at 3pm.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
For those that think this:
In the (F) plan i was only stating a 6th Avenue Express not a Culver Express!
Trevor
Yeah, and I bet that 'Ditmas Ave' in your 'W' plan should be Ditmars Blvd.
-Hank
I also have some news from an RCI who works on the R142A Road Test train and that is starting in October they will put 6 more R142A's in Service. Right Now the Clock it at Day 12 I found out they did not count the incident at 33 Street. They will not longer set the clock back unless its a real Emergency. If a Door doesn't work that will no longer put the train back 30 Days. They just want to get the testing done. Also 6 New R142A's will go in service regardless of the 30 Day rule.
By the way thanks for the other Information.
Will the additional R142As also run on the 6? Are any additional R142s scheduled to go into service?
Mark
The Option cars are for the #3 Line so it can go 10 car again and the #3 R62As will join the Pelham R62As on the (7) Train.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
YES!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!! i hope this come true. I still love my R62a's........
3TM
I hate to be a party pooper, but i feel the newer cars r142&142a should go on the lines with the oldest cars 2,5,7 maybe the 6.
Well, I guess they're ready to put the Redbirds to pasture. This moment was coming, so I guess the cars on the 6 will be the first to go (if any)?
Can this be confirmed? I can't begin to state what services layed out in this post are impossible, impractical or just plain stupid.
I can confirm that I got this info straight for a TA official who is involved in this project. I don't give names though out of respect.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
This is the plan that I heard rumored a while back, with one exception:
The F and V would be 6th Ave. LOCALS and the B and D 6th Ave. EXPRESSES (as far south as 34th Street). If it were the other way around, the criss-crossing over of B's and D's at 34th Street would be rediculous.
The bottleneck at Queens Plaza also seems pretty illogical. Running the F from 179th Street to Manhattan via 63rd St. while the V runs from 71st-Continental via 53rd means a potential inbound bottleneck for the E and V trains, with the V backing up the R if it has to wait for the E to get out of QP, while outbound the V faces a merge with the R after QP while the E sits and waits behind it coming in from 23rd-Ely.
Not that logic often enters into the routing schemes, and I think Train Dude already posted this info. But since both the F and V will end up on the Sixth Ave. local tracks, it seems like an extra switching will be done for no sensible reason.
The "W" route description really demonstrates that this plan isn't official, or serious. No way the West End line is downgraded to tunnel status. It'll never happen. 2 Q's? Nope.
Yes Way it is. Only until the North Side Manny B tracks are opened again.....
While I don't portray myself as a know-it-all, I can state without a shred of doubt that the plan in this thread's original post will never, ever be implemented.
I hear what you are saying, honestly i think it'll change too. BUT this is what I recieved from a TA official, so for me that is as official as it gets.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I don't doubt your sincerity, I just know the plan you layed out isn't feasible. Perhaps the TA hasn't realized that yet.
they wont realize it till 2005 most likely
Chris, I think I know what TA officials were thinking in making the 'B' substitute (W) as a local. This does not mean that I justify it. Here it is: the B, D, and Q each have 10 tph in morning rush, the N 6 tph, the R (IIRC) 8 tph and the M 6 tph. There would be quite a bit of difficulty to have all three, Q, Q diamond, and W, 10 tph over the southside and on Broadway, because of 20 tph terminating at 57th. Using the N instead of W on southside gives 26 tph. Likewise, there should not be too much difficulty through the 60th street tunnel, with 6+8+10 tph, 16 of them to Queenborough Plaza or Astoria. Like I said, I don't justify it. I would have preferred that the Q go all the way through the 63rd St. connector as express to Jamaica (with the F going local from 71st Av.), thus no logjam at 57th St., but I guess this would have presented other difficulties. But if this is the plan, I would that the West End train should be designated as T and the Brighton local as W, as I believe this would be less confusing and more consistent historically (there are some things in the TA's history that are worthy or preserving).
--Harry
Sure, it would bring back the T marking.
Here's a thought: couldn't the N run express to at least 34th St? That's what Brighton expresses used to do in the olden days when they ran to Astoria, IIRC. I think I can see the logic behind this: two expresses and two locals along Broadway, with both expresses continuing via 63rd St.
I agree. Switching the N to the local tracks on the double crossovers south of Prince will back up Ns and Qs.
They should switch in south of 57th, for some reason it seems less troublesome to do this while the Qs are at their terminal.
Makes a LOT of sense, and that's just the reason it won't be adopted.
Remember the agency you're dealing with. 8-)
FOWARD......INTO THE PAST
Peace,
ANDEE
Steve, if the Q or Qs ran through 63rd to exp. on Queens Blvd., it would be important that in the morning rush that no other train be on the Broadway exp. southbound, at least as far as Canal, in order to avoid delays (reverse in evening rush). This would have the bonus of giving Astoria-line riders real frequent local service on Broadway, too (10 T + 6 N).
If both Qs will be terminating at 57th St., you can disregard my previous post. I realized I goofed on the part about running via 63rd St. about two seconds after posting it. Silly me.
I believe it. The N riders have been the ones complaining so much about loss of bridge service, and they look like they just won't understand or tolerate this time the South side being open and the N remaining in the tunnel. They don't want to put the Brighton local in the tunnel, so the logical choice is the West End. The Sea Beach always gets priority over the West End, because during full bridge closures and nights, it's the West End that is cut into a shuttle, and the riders have not been as outspoken as the Sea Beach riders. Also, coming from Astoria, if the N is express or via Bridge, those riders are going to want local service and lower Manhattan. That in fact was what the W was originally designed for. (replacing the old diamond N)
1. The people who ride the West End line will KO this plan even before the TA can get the new maps printed. Remember the brou-haha over the 2/5 thru express switch. And Bensonhurst/Borough Park residents have more powerful state representatives.
2. More people use the West End line than the Sea Beach line.
3. The Sea Beach line has been running via tunnel for 14 years now. An entire generation has gotten used to it.
I have a better plan:
(N) Coney Island to Astoria via bridge and Broadway express to 34th St, then switching over to the local to Queens. Via tunnel and local at night.
(Q) Brighton Beach to 57th/7th, weekdays to 10 PM. Other times via Brighton local to Coney Island.
(T) 57th/7th to Coney Island via Broadway Express and West End, all times except at night.
(W) Queensboro Plaza to Coney Island via Broadway local, Montague St. tunnel and Brighton local, weekdays to 10 PM. Extended to Astoria during rush hours.
(M) Metropolitan Ave. to Chambers St only.
I don't understand why the Brighton line HAS to have 2 trains that run over the Manhattan Bridge, while the Sea Beach gets screwed. Eliminating the M line should ease any bottlneck at Dekalb and allow increased service on the 2 lines going through the tunnel up Broadway.
I agree, Brighton Local must go through tunnel. My plan:
(Q) - Astoria - Brighton, local all the way.
<Q> - 57th - Brighton, express all the way.
(M) - Stays the same
(N) - Astoria - Sea Beach, 4th ave / B'wy express.
(R) - Forest Hills - 95st, local all the way.
(W) - 57th - West End, 4th ave / B'wy express.
I disagree with your idea of sending the Brighton local via tunnel, based on your own idea that amount of ridership should determine quality of service, with which I wholeheartedly agree. Right, there are more West End riders than there are Sea Beach riders, therefore, the West End would have priority. Likewise, there are more Brighton local riders than Sea Beach riders. Sea Beach service has been cut back, in Brooklyn, to 6 tph. Has there been such a brouhaha? Or, more likely, since the time our friend Sea Beach Fred left New York, perhaps his former neighbors prefer to take the express bus from Bay Ridge to Manhattan?
I dont see the routing of Brighton locals thru the tunnel as a service downgrade. Brighton riders would have a choice with my plan. Sea Beach riders wouldn't. Having the Brighton local go thru the tunnel and the express go over the bridge is a balanced plan.
I also disagree that the Brighton local by itself carries more passangers than the entire Sea Beach line.
The Sea Beach line has been abused enough already.During Rush hour its
just as crowded as the West End Line.
But it runs fewer trains, thus it doesn't carry as many passangers as both the B and M combined.
If the Sea Beach runs more trains, then maybe more people will ride it, especially those who live between the West End Line and the Sea Beach (like me).
The Manny bridge fiasco has altered West End/Sea Beach ridership patterns permanently. The West End carries more people, and is a faster ride into Manhattan, even if the N ran via the bridge.
Your idea is basically what I've been suggesting to Operations Planning for about 8 years now (when the flip-flop was scheduled for 1995). The W is like the old QT. But they insist that all the Brightons must be on the bridge. In the original Chrystie St. plans, the local would have been the QJ only, but people complained and tried to kill off the whole project, so the put the QB back. So the Brighton has bever been without both express and local having at least some trains on the bridge, and they don't want to change that now. I used to speak to the Operations people in person (Including PCafireo, who used to post here occasionally) at the hearings, and in the one where they announced the N running express in Brooklyn again, they told the Sea Beach riders that they wouldn't take the B D or Q off the bridge to make way for the N. Perhaps now they fear the Sea Beach riders will really go off, so they will try putting the West End in the Tunnel. I didn't say the riders over there wouldn't put up a fight, but like I said, the practice during full bridge closures has always been to give the Sea Beach precidence over the West End. (Sea Beach is Bensonhurst and the edge of Boro Park, too)
Well, you can't please everyone.
The insistence of having the Brighton local served by a train going over the bridge is silly. Many Brighton riders work in lower Manhattan. If they want to get to midtown, let 'em transfer to a Q train. as it stands today, all Brighton riders working in lower Manhattan MUST transfer at Dekalb. While I have no official knowledge, I'd convinced this causes trains to idle at this station longer, creating an even bigger bottleneck than that which would exist had one of the Brighton line routes been routed thru the tunnel.
As for the QJ/QB problems, I think that had more to do with the fact that the QJ ran up Nassau St, instead of the QT, which ran into lower Manhattan AND midtown. The "W" route would mimic this older route, one which served the Brighton line well for 47 years.
That's it right there. No matter what you do, you can't please everyone.
Now, if the slant R-40s will in fact be pulled off the Brighton express when the bridge flip-flop takes place, I have two words for that:
Ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
Kind of funny too, since if the B and D end at 34th, the "6th Ave Express" will have no practical meaning whatsoever!
Well, it would for the D, sort of, since it would still run express (yawn) along CPW. The B would revert back to when the R-32s had B signs pasted over the BB markings on the "6th Ave. local" side route curtains. I remember it well....
F: How will it run in Queens (Liberty)?
N: Why will it run via the Culver Line, will the Sea Beach be abandoned?
Q: What happened to Ocean Parkway, Aquarium and Coney Island?
V: Express or local in Liberty?
W: Bridge or Tunnel?
F Queens Blvd/Liberty Express, 6th Avenue Local, Culver Local, 63rd Street Connection
N Sea Beach
Q Who knows about those stations
V Local replacing the G
W Tunnel
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I heard that the diamond Q represents Broadway/Brighton Expresses, and circle Q represents Broadway Express and Brighton Local.
Since the south side of Manny B will be opened, the N line will be Broadway Express except nights when it runs local to replace both R and W.
Chaohwa
> F Queens Blvd/Liberty Express
Uh, what is "Liberty" here? I've not heard of it before.
Thx...
I know, I just thought about that too, that's why I put Queens/Liberty because I know he really meant Queens Boulevard!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I made it up, it's what would happen if the Americans had been as CRAZY as the Russians and eliminated all references to the King and Queen as opposed to just some, so Queens County would become Liberty County and Kings County would become Freedom County.
I'll give up on that now, since why Freedom Highway and Freedom Plaza would sound cool, Libertyborough Bridge would not, and Royal Island would no longer make any sense.
Where is Royal Island, anyway?
For once, somebody should figure it out for themselves. And it's location is quite obvious when you read "If Kings County and Queens County became Freedom and Liberty Counties, respectively, Royal Island would no longer make any sense."
Sorry, Pigs, but just this once you'll have to excuse my ignorance. I live some 6000 miles away from New York, but even when I lived there I never encountered Royal Island. I do not happen to have a map of New York City close at hand. My I respectfully ask that you save me a trip to find a library that has a map of the big town?
He means Long Island, where Kings (Brooklyn) and Queens county are. I think "Royal Island" is just a pun on Kings and Queens.
>>>I think "Royal Island" is just a pun on Kings and Queens. <<<
Mr PIgs, We have a winner!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
Exactly? When was the last time that anybody referred to Brooklyn and Queens as Long Island? So the landmass needs a name. It doesn't need a canal, Ward's and Randall's Islands are one landmass.
BTW, did you figure this out or did you hear me mention this before?
Nope. Just figured it out from the context. Do I get brownie points?
Hmmm. The G as the Royal Island Crosstown local.
;)Andrew
I was beginning to wonder if it was Rikers Island
Or Governor's Island. But not Liberty or Ellis Island.
I was trying to be facetious, because Pigs did not want to share his knowledge with me.
[Do I get brownie points?]
Yeah, now you have three points toward a homemade brownie! :-)
Doug aka BMTman
You're way to stuck up, especially with this 'Royal Island', 'Liberty County', and 'Freedom County' crap. You say these things, and automatically expect people to understand what you're talking about, and when people don't get it, you tell them they have to figure it out for themselves.
-Hank
People weren't expected to know about Freedom and Liberty Counties.
However, Royal Island is rather obvious when I mention it in reference to Brooklyn and Queens.
the q train will run along the f line in queens to 179th street. however these plans mentioned are subject to change on the last minute. most likely all plans will not go through.
I think it's a safe assumption that the V, not F, wll use the 63rd. St tunnel, at least when the V runs. The bottleneck at Queens Plaza would make running the V thru 53rd. St. impossible.
Then again, I have almost zero faith in this proposal as being "official". Probably more railfan fantasies...
Chris, I have it on good faith that this is a real scenario. A contact within MTA/NYCT in a position to know passed me the same information at almost the same time that Trevor made his post. As we all know, everything is "subject to change," but this is now more than a coincidence.
I agree with you that the Queens Plaza/36th street switching with the F going from 63 -> QB express and V from 53 -> QB local isn't the most efficient answer, but that seems to be the current plan.
To me, it sounds like the suits down at Jay Street want to "show off" their new tunnel to the IND Queens express riders (and the majority of people bound for Manhattan will always want to take the express) by putting the F through there and running the V through 53rd Street, instead of the other way around. That would require one less switching manuever at between 36th and Queens Plaza, but would mean only local riders in Queens would get to see the MTA's wonderful new connection that took a mere 22 years to complete.
I think after the MTA is convinced that everyone knows where the money went and has gotten a look at the 63rd St. project (and I'll bet the number of Queens-bound riders who ever have seen the Lexington, Roosivelt Island and Queensbridge stations is under 10 percent right now), they'll switch it back to the more logical routing of F vis 53rd Street and V via 63rd in two or three years.
Since B and D lines both use 34 Street/6 Avenue as southbound terminals, there is no way to put both F and V lines on 6 Avenue Express. There is no switch to put a local train to the express track south of 34 Street/6 Av.
Both F and V lines will be 6 Avenue Local.
Chaohwa
I know, it was a typo on my part! I was rushing!
Trevor Logan
The "Q" will be terminating at Brighton Bch- is this because of the Stillwell ave rebuild?
Wayne
I can't help but wonder if the V will be extended into Brooklyn after those 143s are placed into service? Anyone have ideas?
Why couldn't the Q local be extended to Coney Island? Except for the interlude between 11/26/67 and 8/18/68, that was the normal service pattern.
So there's going to be both a Q local and a Q express on the Brighton Line? That's going to cause some confusion. Why don't they use a different letter like T?
TA does not stand for common sense never have, never will!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
if it works on the 7 why not the Q?
Actually, the #7 express may become the #11 train when R62As are sent there, unless they have diamond 7 markers on the roll signs. And there are people who take the 7 express by mistake when they meant to take the 7 local. That could also happen with the Q. But in the case of the Q, the express operates in both directions at the same time because the Brighton line has four tracks.
Because these folks have no sense of history - "T" would, of course, mean WEST END - but they're going to use "W" for that (sort of makes sense) - they wouldn't use "P", would they (they WERE going to use "P"
as the replacement letter for the old BMT #5)
wayne
Interesting. If they were going to use P for the Culver line, where would the D (and later F) train have gone? P would also be good for the Brighton line while the D is terminating at 34th St? But the TA is just too dumb to see things differently.
That would have been for the segment running from Ditmas to Chambers. (Ditmas to Coney Island was taken over by the D of course). But by the time letters were assigned to the BMT, the Culver was permanently a shuttle, so "P" was skipped. (It was proposed for the Jamaica-Penn Sta. non-stop via J line, Chrystie & 8th Av. in the event of RR strikes.)
The letter "P" will never be used, for obvious reasons ...
If the P were an IND express, what would its accompanying local be?
Pre 1985: PP
Post 1985: U
Why U ?
Y not U?
wayne
The U should be paired with the F. :-)
In which case you'd have Felix Unger's train.:-)
That would certainly solve the dirt problem on some lines.
Those would be Oscar's lines.:-)
say both letters....
get it?
If they had made it a BMT express (Ditmas-Chambers), the locals probably would have been PB and PT, since I think both ran over the Bridge or tunnel at different times. (Just like on the old Brighton)
Not the #1, that's for sure!!!
wayne
Of course not - it's already a local and besides, it's express counterpart is the 2!:-)
There was one instance when there was going to be a temporary 'P'. In June 1994 there was threat of an LIRR strike whereby no trains would run west of Jamaica. (Something to do with Amtrak ownership of Penn Station and the tunnels leading into it, if I remember.)
As a contingency, a special nonstop 'P' train would run from Jamaica Center via the 'J' through Essex Street, the defunct 'K' connection through Broadway-Lafayette to West 4th, and then up the 8th Avenue line to Penn Station.
Fortunately, the strike never happened, so LIRR commuters didn't have to take a 'P' before getting to Manhattan.
Thinking back, I don't know if this routing is even possible. Is there a way for trains to switch from Houston routing to 8th Avenue where the two lines rub shoulders south of West 4th? The old JFK express did the opposite, i.e. switching from 6th Avenue routing to Cranberry routing.
Yes, it can be done.
See: http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smdowntn.gif
See this for a better look at the West 4th Street area.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/w4.gif
The local tracks interconnect in both directions. The express tracks do not. Next month, I'm going to check all that out for myself.
just check out the track maps on this site
Track maps are 2 dimensional, to really understand how it works, you actually have to be there. Its quite interesting, espc. northbound. If the F were to go straight, it'd end up on the 8th ave line, and if the E went straight it'd end up on 6th ave.
Yes it can be done, as the JFK express switched from the 8th Ave. local to Sixth Ave. local tracks. The local tracks are arranged to interconnect with each other south of W4th St. The express tracks can't do this.
BTW, I remember this contingency plan, but I recall the "P" route would run via Queens Blvd.
As long as the trains are signed properly, it could work. I mean, we have 6 and 7 diamonds representing expresses and 6 & 7 circles representing locals.
--Mark
But this will mean that the Q express will be limited to R-68's, and I guess the local will have to be anything else than R-68's (probably the 40's. But I thought they didn't want the bulk of the 40's to run on a full time line anymore).
The West End will also be restricted to everything else but 68's. And since it is also limited to 75 ft. cars for OPTO service, it will probably get the 68A's. But then the B & D will be left with 68's, which do not have "34th St" on the signs. Either they'll have wrong destinations for years like before (they continued to read "Coney Island", or they'll have to replace the bottom sign or paste over it (both of which look ugly since newer signs use the larger one-line print.
But if they are going to do this, they might as well replace the route signs on all the 68's, make the West End "T", and then "W" would be free for one of the Brighton services. (It could be the prt time express, making the diamond more accurate, and keeping the 40's part time.
But this will mean that the Q express will be limited to R-68's, and I guess the local will have to be anything else than R-68's (probably the 40's. But I thought they didn't want the bulk of the 40's to run on a full time line anymore).
The West End will also be restricted to everything else but 68's. And since it is also limited to 75 ft. cars for OPTO service, it will probably get the 68A's. But then the B & D will be left with 68's, which do not have "34th St" on the signs. Either they'll have wrong destinations for years like before (they continued to read "Coney Island", or they'll have to replace the bottom sign or paste over it (both of which look ugly since newer signs use the larger one-line print.
But if they are going to do this, they might as well replace the route signs on all the 68's, make the West End "T", and then "W" would be free for one of the Brighton services. (It could be the prt time express, making the diamond more accurate, and keeping the 40's part time. And the 68'As would go to the B & D to 34th St., which is on their signs.
Last I checked, 34st was on all signs.
Anyway, the solution for all destination sign problems is, of course, R-44 and R-46. As for the route sign problem, one could wait for the digital sign to show "BRIGHTON EXPRESS." Or, if shape truly matters, the appropriate car type will be used on that line. Since the Brighton Express is the only one with the problem, it'll get the R-68/As.
34th St. is not on the R-68's, (except for a few that have received new signs) and the diamond Q is only on the first 8 68A's, so those would not be able to run on the express, other than those first 8 cars.
it's called "make a new sign and paste it on top". Geez, I could make new destination signs on my computer printer (it would take multiple sheets but still)....
Actually, they can use "Special" which is on the R68 rollsigns. They can also use "South Terminal" on the R68A signs.
running on...
or
They do this on temporary reroutes (like the shuttle from 21st to 57th-7th), but for a whole 3 year stretch it is too confusing for too long. But now what I'm hearing is that the B and D will get the stuff from the L when the new cars arrive. The B will go to 8 60 ft. cars. Since these cars do have 34th St. that will solve the problem, as well as freeing up more cars by shortening the B.
One of the proposals is to reduce the B to 8 60-foot cars. These trains will be the responsibility of Concourse maintenancce Shop. Since Concourse Maintenance Shop has no 60 foot cars and can't reasonably support 2 different fleets, The R-68s on the northern segment of the D line may also be replaced by 60' cars.
How about sending the ''J'' down the Brighton line ?
The old QJ? It would make for a very long trip for the train crews. They'd be better off swapping the R-40s and R-68s on the Q and D-southern division when the bridge switch is made and running the Q, B-southern division and N over the Manny B via Broadway, while sending the R-40 D trains from Coney Island via tunnel to Chambers Street, similar to the old bankers special or the RJ train of the 1960s. The D trains running from Concourse to 34th Street could continue to use the R-68s, since they wouldn't have to deal with that sharp turn between Fulton and Chambers on the Nassau loop, which I'm not sure the 75-foot cars can handle.
The RJ ran from 168 St Jamaica to 95 St/4 Av, not Brighton.
AFAIK, that curve is not a problem for the 75-footers. The curve from Essex St. to the bridge approach can lead to sideswiping.
It just rings of service prior to Chrystie St. The QB & QT Brighton locals went to Astoria. The Q Brighton express went to 57 & 7. There was no Sixth Av access from Brighton or West End.
My guess is:
B BPB - 2 Av local all the way
D 205 St - 34 St express on CPW
F unchanged (53 St, express to Forest Hills, then local)
N Astoria - Sea Beach, bridge, Bway express
Q 179 St - Brighton Beach via 63 St, Bway, bridge express all the way
T Astoria - West End, tunnel, express in Queens peak direction
V 71 Av - 2 Av via 63 St local all the way
W Astoria - CI Brighton, bridge, local all the way
If they send the J down the Brighton Line,there will be no trains on the Jamaica el in Brooklyn,being that the Z runs only during rush hours.
I think what Vernon P meant was to EXTEND the J past its southern terminal, through the Montague Street tunnel, and into the Brighton line. Kind of like the old QJ train.
My opinion: That would be a long, slow line. And an extra burden on the Montague St. tunnel.
I'm sorry, that's what kamehame777 meant, not Vernon P.
I think you get more riders going to midtown from the Brighton line than to lower Manhattan. Less transferring and lesscrowding on 8 car trains.....
I don't buy that, judging by the mass transfers I see at Dekalb Ave. from D/Q trains to M/N/R trains during the rush hours.
The J running along the Brighton line is just a useless waste of track capacity.
Will Grand street be closed? Or will they run a shuttle to Broadway Lafeyette?
I think V line is better to terminate at Grand Street than at 2nd Avenue during the closeness of north side of Manny B.
Chaohwa
I don't know if there is a crossover to facilitate a Grand St "terminal". I think the nearest one is north of Broadway / Lafayette. This would cause a bottleneck.
--Mark
Unless one was built. Unfortunatley, the tracks seperate almost immediatley upon leaving Grand St. northbound.
A bottleneck with what? No 6ave express!
Incoming trains looking to terminate at Grand Street. They'd have to wait at Broadway / Lafayette for a train leaving Grand Street to clear before it could move further south.
--Mark
They did it before! Of course, 10 minute headways aren't very good for a Queens Blvd service during the rush (espc. one to Lex-53rd).
Lots of why this and why not that floating around. Although I have been on vacation and don't have the up to the minute routings, and with all due respect to trevor and the information that he received, technically this information is not necessarilly true. Every week or so there is a meeting held regarding these changes. There are three factors that will affect the final service arrangements. To date, none of these three things have been finalized. Those issues are:
1) The dates when the DOT will turn over the H tracks to the NYCT and the date when NYCT will turnover the A/B tracks to the DOT.
2) Testing of the H tracks to determine if they can handle (power and signal) the 30 TPH required to meet the current proposed service plan.
3) Re-deployment of the B division fleet to find the 140 cars needed to provide the V service.
I do know that I am planning on numerous contingencies because these issues may be resolved in several different ways. Until then, I'm not even sure what cars will make up my fleet come June 2001. So before we get into making destination signs on computers for specific car fleets, much has yet to be determined.
The 212 R-143 Cars will be in fully swing by August 2001. First set due February 2001 and the full delivery between June and July! So there is your extra cars, the R40Ms, R42s and R40s from the (L).
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor, aside from the fact that you sound like you are taking things personally, the R-143 program is already over 1 year behind schedule. Technical problems with CBTC not withstanding, there is no guarantee that any of the 212 R-143 cars will be in service by the time that they are neeeded.
Aside from that, there are still the other issues of the A/B tracks and the H tracks. Have you a difinitive answer on these issues?
My posting was not meant to be critical of your posting, only to point out that I get one 'final' plan approximately every 2 weeks. I find all the fine tuning and tweaking amusing but until the 'final' plan is signed off on by the MTA board - it's just someone's mental gymnastics.
Train Dude, do you know what the R143s look like? I heard they are rumored to look either like Boston's new Red Line cars or the R110B. Or do they look like the R143 mockup that was on display at 207th St Yard?
Ok you know what, I'm gonna be adult here. I am not taking in personally. The title was to grab attention and to be sorta comical.
I sent you a e-mail with a deeper detail of what I really have to say to you in regards to this post.
OH and AGAIN, Like i've stated before, I am a fellow mass transit worker.
Have a blessed day!
Trevor Logan Junior
www.transitalk.com
LET GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Trevor, on the contrary, I'll be the adult here. Where did I say you were not a transit worker? If you read my posting #153223, I stated that you were a MABSTOA employee.
However, and forgive me if this sounds egotistical, but as a manager from the Department of Subways, I think that the information I am given may be a bit more current and slightly more accurate than the rumors and gossip you hear. Of course, if you can show me otherwise, I'll publicly acknowledge my errors.
Of course, Trevor, if you E-mail me with your work location, I will send you some really nice Cer Equipment books, as a peace offering.
Steve
Aight Steve, you know, I'm not trying to come off as a mouthy person, I just wanted you to know, that's all!
You can snail mail that book to my home in NJ.
I'll give you the address in a e-mail.
Thanks
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor, since the books are NYCT property, I couldn't possibly send them to your home but I will happily have my truck driver deliver them to your work location. Being a NYCT employee, I'm sure you understand.
I understand not a problem, hell, I have some days coming off, maybe I can take a ride down the your office.
Trevor Logan
Ooooh! A manager! In the event that I should REALLY mess up, you'll be the first to know! lol.
Trevor, where do they plan to send #4370-4449 from the "L"?
My suggestion? - Send 'em to the "A" and make some 8-car R44 "C" trains from the displaced. There's enough cars for six full consists of Slants plus a few spares.
wayne
Wayne, you show a lot of insight in asking trevor about car movements within the b division. After all who would know better about such car movements than a MABSTOA employee?
I don't blame Wayne for his suggestion. In fact, I'd love to see some slants back on the A myself. Probably won't happen, although I'd be interested to see where the slants will wind up if they do get yanked off the Q.
I didn't blame Wayne for the suggestion. I was critical of his asking for information from a person who has little or no hard information.
Oh, POOH. I don't ask where people work if I don't know.
These R40s are going to go SOMEWHERE after the R143 begins to arrive and it ain't necessarily the scrap heap.
Maybe they'll go back to the West End line.
wayne
Absolutley not. The C train will not get the R44's over the A. People will raise bloody hell if the A gets older cars. This would also reduce capacity on the C line slightly, something even these riders won't tolerate.
Can we pleeeeaaaase keep the 75' car-bashing limited to the hippos. Speed wise, they're the ones who deserve it.
Why would putting a few R44s on the C reduces its capacity? C trains currently run with eight 60-foot R32s or R38s per train. If you put some 75-foot R44s on the C, if anything, you should be increasing its capacity slightly.
Unless you borrow singles from SI, you'd either have 600' empty C trains, or 300' crowded ones.
That's true. Unlike the R46, the R44 can't be configured into 6 car trains.
could a set of 4 r44s be coupled to a pair of r46s?
Coupled? Yes - Will they MU? No!
They might go to the B and D (There's a word that the B will become 8 60ft cars, to further free up equipment). What I'd rather see them do is put them on the southern div. with the rest, or perhaps they'll go to the V, and the 40m and some 42's would go to the B & D.
From what I hear down at work at the TA, when the R143's arrive, they are gonna scrap the slant R40's first because they have the worst cases of body rot. These are just rumors, nothing concrete.
Apparently, there are those (not necessarily the poster I'm answering) who think that if they say something enough, it'll be true. Well, not in this case: as _I_ have said before, the R-143 cars will replace NOT ONE SUBWAY CAR. They are ALL...repeat, ALL...intended to be additions to the fleet, NOT replacements.
'Nuff said.
David
And I am saying that the R143's will be replacing some of the slant R40's due to bad body rot. These like I said are rumors where I work.
In East New York Yard as a train operator.
And I'm saying that rumors spread like wildfire (as Bill from Maspeth pointed out earlier today -- or maybe it was yesterday), and that just because it's going around a yard/shop/depot/anywhere else, that doesn't make it true. The F-A-C-T, not rumor, FACT, is that the cars are intended to provide additional service, not to replace existing eqquipment. The next order, designated R-160, is intended to start replacing the R-32 through R-42 cars (though not necessarily all cars in all classes). That order is not yet in design, but will be soon.
David
I fully understand your position but you have to realize that some of these R40's and R42's won't make it till the R160's arrive. I had a R42 yesterday whose body rot was so bad that I could see the tracks through the floor. FROM INSIDE MY CAB!! It wasn't a safety issue now but in two years it very well could be.
Right now, I'm going to take a wait and see attitude towards whether the R143's will be add-ons or replacements to the current fleet. But I would not be surprised to see some 40s and 42s heading for the scrap heap.
It's my understanding that the 40/42's will be retired before the 38's....., time to get rid of those rattletraps....they're worse than the redbirds......glad I don't operate them much anymore...
I don't doubt that the R-40s and R-42s have body rot problems (and the R-38s, too). It's entirely possible that an individual R-40 or R-42 (or R-38) may have to be retired before the R-160s arrive (and, if so, I guess its mate would have to find a new partner), but that decision would be made independently of the fact that R-143s are coming. The R-143s will displace R-40 and/or R-42 cars from the Eastern Division to (a) support the 63rd Street Connector and the (eventual) return to full Manhattan Bridge service, and (b) allow for increased train lengths and/or service where required and feasible.
David
Unless they are deemed unsafe for operation, no R38/R40 or R42 will be "replaced" by the R143. The R143 is scheduled to be an addition to the fleet, not a substitute for other cars.
Perhaps the body rot problems will be eased by transfering the R42 and R40M cars to Jamaica, where they can run on the all underground E and R lines, replacing them with 100% stainless steel R32's, which are much more suitable to run on the almost completely elevated Eastern Division.
Did someone move the Statue of Liberty to Kew Gardens? "Give me your tired, your poor, your rotting cars yearning to ............."
lol
Very funny. Personally, I would actually look forward to the R40/42s on Queens Blvd. Even though they're rotting like crazy, they are still some of the best trains(in my opinion) to operate in the system.
The man is on a roll...:-)
It's probably undercarriage rot that's going on - the R42s have it way worse than the R40s or the R40M's. The R40s have a different problem - roof rot! And their A/C units drip like a bunch of leaky faucets.
I agree that any retirement should be done on a car-by-car basis.
You can start with #4902-03 which has the MUSHIEST FLOOR IN THE ENTIRE FLEET, even worse than the worst R32s. I think there are holes in the undercarriage underneath the rubbery linoleum. It's a real problem for this carset.
wayne
The CI GOH'ed R42's seem to be in worse shape than the MK ones. Why didn't MK just overhaul all of the R42's?
The R-143s are replacements. The order just got lost in the mail after the R-30s were tossed.
The next order, designated R-160, is intended to start replacing the R-32 through R-42 cars (though not necessarily all cars in all classes).
Should be R-38 through R-42. Very few if any of the R-32's are being considered for replacement, thanks to their all-stainless construction.
Even though I hate operating R32s, I've gotta admit that those suckers are built like a rock.
my son will be railfanning on those babies 15 years from now....they shoulda made thouands of them.
You got that right. The R-32s are damn good cars.
its true. those cars don't show any sign of age. the look like they can go for sixty years. if i were chairman of the TA, i would put them in for another GOH, which would require new truck configuration for more confortable ride and smoother performance, and interiror modifications to make it more up to date as the new cars making their debut. Basically keep the body and dump out all the insides for new insides.
Word has it that the 40's and 42's will be the first to go. Send the 38's over to the L line.
The L -- the wayward home for aging subway cars for the past 45 years -- will be getting the R-143s when the line is used in the CBTC testing. Outside of a handful of R-40M/R-42s in 1969, it's the first new cars the poor line's gotten since the 1930s.
THEY WILL NOT, THEY WILL NEED ALL OF THEIR CARS DUE TO THE QUEENSBRIDGE CONNECTOR!!!!!
David, I understand your frustration. Apparently there are those who would rather hear popular railfan rumors than hear the facts.
nothing will go when the 143s come, and the first to go will be the 38s.
I'm willing to bet that no more than a handful of test R143's will be running come August 2001. The TA's schedule will never be met, and any date they give you should be considerd overly optomistic.
Trevor, you need to understand that all "official" TA timetables are almost never met.
Just to re-affirm what I have stated:
The last meeting related to the 'Manhattan Bridge Switch Service Plan'
was held on 8/22/00. According to the meeting minutes. operations planning provided a 'draft' service plan. The plan was not unanimously received. Hence, any information as to routes, posted here should be cconsidered speculative as of now. The next meeting will be held in October.
Did they come to any conclusions? Tentative? Semi-final? And if the Sea Beach is not re-routed over the Manhattan Bridge when the south side reopens, it will not only burst my bubble. It will break my chops.
Here's a Breakdown of the proposed Bridge flip ......(from a Kevin O'Connel memo)...
Dec 2000-Restoration of H tracks(south side of the Man. Bridge beyond bridge portals
Jan 2001-Public hearing for 63rd Street
Feb 2001-Submit plan to MTA Board
Spring 2001-Obtain access to portions of bridge to permit restoration of power to H tracks
May 2001-Accept H tracks from the NYCDOT
Mid-June 2001-Begin RTO test/training on H tracks
Early June 2001-Commence Manhattan Bridge flip service plan
Early August 2001-Return A/B (north traks on Man Bridge) to NYCDOT
End of August 2001-Implement regularly scheduled 63 St service plan.
I guess you could call that progress. At least it's a start, but I sense that even after all those meetings we won't see any trains on the south tracks for another year or two after that----if ever.
So, they're going to be "testing" trains on the South Side of the bridge, while the North Side is still open. It's interesting that these "tests" won't damege the bridge, but running trains for revenue service will.
(So, they're going to be "testing" trains on the South Side of the bridge, while the North Side is still open. It's interesting that
these "tests" won't damege the bridge, but running trains for revenue service will. )
As far as I can tell, the structural improvements on the south side are finished. All that needs to be done is painting, but -- because the bridge is far up in the air and covered with lead paint -- this is a big job. Having a worker blown off the bridge and into the river seems to have slowed things down. With big canvass canopies over the tracks, however, I don't see how they can run trains, unless painting will be suspended over the winter when testing will take place.
Actually, there is still much TA related work to be done on the H tracks....signal has to do lots of work and Track Department needs to get up there and get things together....Track Department needs a work train up there, but NYDOT won't let them up there yet..
Hey Larry,
The only thing I see that needs painting are the towers. Most of the roadway painting seems to be done, and already covered with new graffiti !
Don't tell me they even have to paint the suspender cables. Sheesh.
[Don't tell me they even have to paint the suspender cables]
The Delaware River Port Authority painted the suspension cables of the Ben Franklin Bridge (Philly to Camden) for the first time when the bridge was 50 or 60 years old. The waterproof paint trapped moisture inside the cables, which subsequently began to rust and had to be replaced.
The cables support the bridge deck between the road surface and the PATCO track on each side of the bridge. (statement added for topical content)
I don't have the memo in front of me but it did say that it would be desirable to get the proposal out to the public ASAP BUT with the understanding that it might be changed after consultation with civic goups & politicians. Hence, even operations & planning knows that their final proposal may be changed.
Ah, but that's what the TA does best, busting people's chops. But I too hope for the resoration of N trains over the bridge next year.
As much as I would like to see the N back on the bridge, the Brighton line seems to be the MTA's fair-haired route right now, and keeping the D and Q on the bridge would also require fewer track changes at 57th-7th in Manhattan, so I would expect the Sea Beach to continue to use the tunnel in the future.
Well finally someone has come and said what everyone else knew to be true---the Brighton seems to be the fair haired boy of the TA at the expense of other lines. I can live with part of that. Either the D or Q traverse the Bridge, but NOT both lines. The Q, N and B should be using the bridge since they are distinctly different routes and come together only at New Utrecht and Coney Island ( N & B). There is no earthly reason for both the Q and D to cross the bridge since they are the same line and route except one is an express, the other a local.
I remeber the shuttles would run through Broadway Lafayette in both directons on the northbound platform, switching just north of that station. Impractical for the V line, unless you terminate half the trains at the southbound Broadway Lafayette platform during the rush hours.
You MUST mean November 2001 and not November 2000. The new train crew work programs which go into effect on November 5th still stipulate normal service as we know it now(D's to Stillwell, G's to Continental, etc.).
The only thing happening in November of 2000 will be the "F" night and weekend service through the 63rd Street Connection. The other stuff is for August 2001.
Trevor Logan
After double checking your post, I rescind my prior posting.
But please explain if you can what you mean by "fully" operational. Is this when the new master tower opens?
Fully operational: When the TA has enough cars to make it that way. If the interlocking can work nights and weekends, it certainly will work during the day.
This seems to show three routes through the 60th Street tunnel: N, R, and W. Wouldn't it be more likely that the W would terminate at 57th and 7th?
There should still be enough room for a third line. Being a Queens resident who uses the N from time to time, I welcome the possibility for a 2nd line and more trains to a line that is just too infrequent.
The 1986-88 routinely saw the 60th St. tunel handle 3 routes (B/N/R).
no because the N runs so infrequently that the W would supplement N service on the Astoria line...
R-142/R-142A Primary Order:
The 30-day clock is at the 18 day mark according to Operations. Bombarider and Kawasaki sets continue to be delivered to the E180th Street and 239th Street Yards. So far Four Bombardier Sets and Three Kawasaki sets are on the property including the ones in revenue testing.
How many more trainsets can be received and stored before there is no more storage space?
R-143 CBTC Order:
The first R-143 set is due on the property from Kawasaki in February 2001 for testing on the (L) line. The other cars will follow in June/July of 2001.
Can they build 2 different sets of cars at the same time ?
Have a nice day !!!
The same way GM builds Chevys and Pontiacs at the same time. They've got the space, they've got the men, they've got the equipment. The only major difference between the 2 types is the size.
-Hank
[So far Four Bombardier Sets and Three Kawasaki sets are on the property including the ones in revenue testing.]
What's your definition of (how many cars are in) a set?
The other day, I say four 5-car sets, 7231-7250, in Unionport Yard. I also saw 7221-7222 on the Dyre Test Track. Since the above place names are considered TA property, all cars from 7211-7250 are on TA property. If 7221-7230 are on TA property as well, and 7211-7220 are in service, 40 Kawasaki cars are on TA property. That's eight 5-car sets, four 10-car trains.
[These cars have not been designed fully yet, but are worded to be twins to the R142 boys.]
I hope they're fraternal twins.
A better idea would be to put a color LCD sign on the ends and sides, and a full A-division strip map inside, with destination signs on the fronts as well, make it look more like an R36 than an R142.
[These cars will have a design of thier own. Let's hope they are not another R-40 "Let's be ultra futuristic" fiasco.]
Make them look like R1-9's. "Let's be ultra-retro!"
At least put spur-cut bull and pinion gears on them.:-)
F running via 63rd St connection in November of 2000, you say?
Try to find out the first train to do this ... I sense a SubTalk field trip coming on that day!
--Mark
Knowing the TA, it'll probably be 12:01 AM... Queensbridge at that time is not all that safe for people with expensive camera equipment...
For those of you who haven't noticed, I'm BA-ACK!
On the advice of heypaul I came back prior to saturday since things seem to have calmed down...anyway...enough about that!
Okay first the things that are impossible:
(1) If Bs and Ds are reversing at 34th/6th then anything else will be using the local tracks. The "V" trains coming into Manhattan wouldn't even be able to use the express tracks until south of 34th anyway, and the MTA wouldn't bother switching them to skip two stations.
(2) Having all Qs terminate at Brighton Beach forces the closure of Ocean Parkway Station. It wouldn't happen. Likely, Brighton Local Qs will serve Stillwell just like the D did.
Other than that the whole thing is "possible" - but then you get...
POTENTIAL PROBLEM POINTS (the mta won't fix these):
PROBLEM:
Both Qs and the N cross the Manny B South. However it says that Ns will run local on Broadway. Broadway local tracks will already be in use by the Rs and the Ws. Since R & W service will also have to make room for the M (all three will be using the Montagues) then there should be room for Ns there. I am assuming that Ns would be switching to the local tracks using the double crossovers south of Prince. While Ns are waiting to merge onto the local, it will back up Qs out onto the Manny B. Not fun.
SOLUTION:
Since the W is already serving the Astoria branch anyway, just run the Ns on the Broadway express and terminate them at 57th, too.
PROBLEM:
"The bottleneck at Queens Plaza also seems pretty illogical. Running the F from 179th Street to Manhattan via 63rd St. while the V runs from 71st-Continental via 53rd means a potential inbound bottleneck for the E and V trains, with the V backing up the R if it has to wait for the E to get out of QP, while outbound the V faces a merge with the R after QP while the E sits and waits behind it coming in from 23rd-Ely." --Todd Glickman
SOLUTION: This whole mess could be avoided if all of the Queens Blvd locals went through 60th. Instead of this new "V" train, simply add R service instead.
Other than that it seems like a relatively good plan. But what happens to everything once the Manny B is fully opened (if ever)? How bout:
(A) Normal Service
(B) Normal Service
(C) Normal Service
(D) Normal Service
(E) Normal Service
(F) 179th Street to Coney Island via 63rd St Connection, 6th Ave Local, & Culver Express (as far as Church St)
(G) Court Square to Church St via Crosstown Local and Culver Local
(J) Normal Service
(K)
(L) Normal Service (CBTC by this time)
(M) Metropolitan Av to Broad all times except nights
(N) Coney Island to Ditmars Blvd via Manny B South, Broadway Exp, and 60th St
(Q) Brighton Beach to 179 St via Brighton Exp, Manny B South, Broadway Exp, 63rd St, and running express ALL the way to 179 St.
(R) Normal Service
All (S) Normal Service
(Z) Normal Service
The Rationale behind this is that the "V" was implemented to take over the "G" between 71-Continental and Queens Plaza. Only thing is, the "G" didn't run very often, when it did it was only 4-6 cars, and no one rode it ANYWAY. So having the R be the only local on Queens Blvd wouldn't really change things - the G was useless at that point anyway.
[Only thing is, the "G" didn't run very often, when it did it was only 4-6 cars]
You seem to miss the point that during rush hours, G service on the Queens Blvd line is a valuable link, and a supplement to infrequent, and crowded R trains. It gets so crowded by the time it reaches Roosevelt Avenue, that the CR tries to close the doors while people are still getting OFF!
[and no one rode it ANYWAY.]
Not True! I rode Brooklyn-bound G trains a lot when I went to Bryant High School.
[So having the R be the only local on Queens Blvd wouldn't really change things - the G was useless at that point anyway.]
Again, not true! Think about the people in Queens who work in Downtown Brooklyn, lower Manhattan, or anywhere else on the G line. They'd have to take crowded Manhattan-bound E and F trains to 23-Ely and walk that long passageway to get to the less crowded G trains.
BTW, when Smith-9-bound G trains leave Fulton Street during the rush hours, it's pretty crowded!
Okay the question isn't whether the G should be local on Queens Blvd or not - it has ALREADY BEEN SAID that the G isn't going to run Queens Blvd starting in August. My point was that with more R service they didn't need a new "V" train running local on Queens Blvd. I think terminating the G at court Square is really stupid - I don't see why they need the new "V" train since the E and F are there. I guess the G could continue to run to 71/Continental, with the R providing more local service and with the E and F being the expresses - this would also turn the 53rds into a faster run since the E would be the only train using them, which I think was why the stupid "V" was put there in the first place.....
Abe
Ride the Queens Blvd line during rush hour (especially morning), and yell at the top of your lungs:
"I'm against the TA's plan to put another route to Manhattan!" Those would be your last words.
Actually, the only reason to run the V by way of 53rd St. coming off the Queens local tracks (other than to "show off" the new tunnel to more riders from Queens by routing the F express through it) is to give passengers at the local stations between 71st-Continental and 36th Street a one-transfer change to the G at 23rd-Ely/Court Square.
To me, it doesn't seem to justify the bottleneck they're going to create between QP and 36th St., and I still think the MTA really wants to show more people their new Queens connection, but when the new routing is annouced, if the V runs through 53rd I'm sure that's what the suits at Jay Street will say.
[R-142/R-142A Option Order:
This option order for 320 additional cars will be taken according to operations to complete the full retirement of the R36 Class Corona Redbirds. Estimate to take place sometime in early 2002.]
Can those R142 and R142A cars say:
BLISS STREET?
The "V" just seems kind of silly. Essentially it's just a shorter, more local version of the F.
What I would like to see, that the "V" could help me with:
Express all the way to 179th! Preferably by the Q running there (probably no room on the Qns Blvd express for it) or by the V and/or R running local to 179th while the F runs express.
Less friggin bottlenecks on Queens Blvd. Is this connection going to change that AT ALL?
I had left NYC a little before the 12/88 changes, but my understanding of things is the R was extended to 179 and the F was express 71 Av-179 St. The R was dropped and the F went local because riders wanted a 1-seat ride.
I think they should just leave the F as it is. Run the Q to 179 via Bway & 63 St, express all the way. If they're hell bent on a V, run it through 63 St as well, then 6Av express to 2nd Av.
...6Av express to 2nd Av...
Bad idea, crossing at B'way-Laf. It would merge and separate from the F for a small section of track.
Leave the F, extend the Q is great, but headways on both lines would have to be cut unless the QB express gets signal upgrades for hi-speed operation (the only thing that will get rid of those timers and speed restrictions.) Cutting the E's headways is out of the question.
At 30 tph, it would be possible to have 3 exp. routes on Queens Boulevard, E,F, and Q, with 9+9+12 tph. But then again, where would the "other Q" (Brighton local) go?
I suppose the local Q could just terminate at 57th or 21-Queensbridge.
It would be worth it to have express all the way from Union Square to 179th St. That would save me quite a few stops. :)
:)Andrew
They couldn't do that with the other Q running on the same tracks!
run it to Essex street, or marcy avenue
I guess the biggest bennefit of the 63rd St connection is that it's another outlet for the Queens Blvd. line. When there is congestion heading into Queens Plaza, they could always reroute the F or R--or even the E if it switches at W 4th--via 63rd St.
It's a prosaic bennefit, but it could help.
It does add a degree of flexibility.
When there's a major problem anywhere on 53st, and they need to keep trains moving, Fs go to Queensbridge anyway. Es go up CPW.
That makes sense, since 8th Ave. trains cannot access the 63rd St. tunnel. OTOH, if they were to reroute E trains up 6th Ave., then the 63rd St. tunnel becomes a viable option.
I don't think that should ever be a permanent solution--It would suck if Queens riders lost their access to 8th Ave. It's just a good emergency solution.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. You wouldn't want to run E trains up 6th Ave. on a permanent basis.
If you wanna get funky, you could send the R's down 63 St. and it can join the Broadway line at 57 Street(unlikely but possible).
Hey, in a pinch, it could be done.
[R-160 Order:
This is the next major purchase of subways, 660 to be exact. These cars are in design planning and is worded not to resemble the R-110B nor the R-143. These cars will have a design of thier own. Let's hope they are not another R-40 "Let's be ultra futuristic" fiasco.]
What will the R143s look like? I heard they were supposed to look like Boston's Bombardier Red Line cars.
As for the R160 order, think we might see a return of articulated cars? Something aerodynamic, like Stockholm, Sweeden's new articulated cars. Now those would be a big contrast compared to what we have now.
Starting in November of 2000, the (F) train will begin night and weekend service via the 63rd Street Connection.
And the B will be going to 145th (exc. nights) during these times.
I do know that the B will be going to 145 St. on weekends. But the pick will start on Nov. 5th. The line still has not had its' signals/switches put into service and the motormen have to be qualified on the new stretch of track. So perhaps 21st St. shuttle service may have to operate for a few weekends in the beginning.
The start date for 63 Street has been pushed back to Dec 1. T/O's will be qualified on OT (believe it or not). There will be a couple of 4 car trains back and forth from Continental to Queensbridge to qualify them.
Of course the T/O's have to be qualified there on overtime. What's the alternative? If they are qualified on company time, is the TA supposed to abandon their regularly scheduled intervals since the T/O will be breaking in on the new line? And the conductor will be sitting around doing nothing? As it is the TA has to cover jobs for T/O's who are called away for the federal random pee in the cup test. And I don't see them qualifying 2 guys at a time per trip! That's equally as wasteful.
You know how the TA is, try to get by with paying as little as possible, cut as many corners as they can...
Compulsive pennypinching, I like to call it.
The Mets did that a lot during the final years of ownership by the Payson family.
The and V should be switched. The Brighton Local should be the W, and
operate via the Montague Street Tunnel like the old QT. The T should
be the West End Express, and terminate at Queensborough Plaza on
weekdays 6am-9pm, and run through the 63rd Street Tunnel to 179th
Street-Jamaica, when the Q is NOT running. The Q should be the
Brighton Express and run to 179th Street-Jamaica the same time when
the T runs to Queensborough Plaza. N trains should return to Broadway
Express service 24 hours a day to allow the W to use the Montague
Street Tunnel.
I'll second all that.
as the weeks pass, ive seen Kawasaki making progress with it's sending it's new R-142A sets to the The TA's train yards. i witnessed one trailer car being delivered to the wakefield train yard last night (sept. 12) at 10:13 p.m. also two sets that are still sitting in union port yard. but what is going on with bombardier? where are the rest of its trains and are they coming now? please respond or e-mail me i wish to know if someone has the info on the Bombardier R-142's.
The 2001 operating budget for NJT was approved today. Contrary to earlier published reports, it contained no fare increase for the 2001 fiscal year. At last report, lady hillary was exploring ways she could take credit for this good news. As always she's right on top of NY issues.
I just returned home (in suburban Boston) from NYC via ACELA Regional #132. We departed right on time at 4:55pm, and arrived at Route 128 station (about 15 miles outside of Boston) six minutes early. From meeting room to bedroom, the trip time was just under five hours. So I expect that when the ACELA Express service is running (now scheduled to begin with one round-trip per day in each direction between Washington and Boston) on October 29, this will be cut to just under four hours, assuming your meeting is within a half hour of Penn Station, and your home is within a half hour of Boston. That's very competitive with the air shuttles.
Today's experience was similar to the ride south on Sunday; smooth, comfortable, and reasonably quiet. The food in the cafe car was marginal, but then again, when I dine at a fine restaurant, I don't expect a fast train ride.
Based upon a sample of one round-trip, and with the expectation of much improved comfort and speed beginning late next month on the ACELA Express, I predict that business travelers will give this service a try, and if all goes well, cause a significant reduction in airline trips between BOS and LGA and/or EWR.
Thank you for the "movie preview". Since I purchase more than 20 Boston - New York tickets in a typical year, the interest in what you report is high. If this does not work at the outset, it will not work for may years to come. Let's hope that Amtrak can get its act together this time.
>>when I dine at a fine restaurant, I don't expect a fast train ride. <<
Anybody here ever eat at THE IRON HORSE in Seattle? Your food and drinks are served by G-scale trains. I was tempted to grabe somebody else's desert as it rolled by.
Oh, this topic again, eh?
Closer to home was the Hamburger Choo-Choo, in Huntington, back in the 60s. The counter diners were "served" by their plates arriving on a Lionel trainset.
And up the road from my childhood house (which I still reside in - a Baltimore tradition!!!) was Hambuger Junction, an eatery in Carney in which the counter patrons received their food via Lionel. Booth customers were served by waitresses garbed as railroaders, in overalls and emgineman's caps. Heady stuff for a kid in the 1950's.
It burned in a spectacular fire one evening in early 1970, attended by the Baltimore County and City Fire Departments, and folks from all over the area. It's still remembered and fondly missed.
Strangely enough, the concept was nowhere else in the Baltimore area, and has been never repeated.
Unfortunately Acela Express-- when it finally starts up-- sounds like it will run at about 3h30 NYP-BOS, only a half-hour improvement over Acela Regional. The expectation is that as operational details get smoothed out some time will be cut from that, but there is still a lot of construction to be done, especially on the Metro-North segment, before a 3-hour running time is realistic.
You're right, David. However the Route 128 stop in suburban Boston is more convenient than South Station for me personally, so in my case, it really will be a three-hour trip! But of course, I look forward to a two-and-a-half hour trip!!
How fast will ACELA regional get to Washington? It will interesting to see a time and price comparision, Car Service/Plane/Cab vs. Subway/Rail/Subway. Last time we looked, the Metroliner was slower, and not much cheaper. But then, air service and auto traffic are worse, and ACELA will probably be better.
By subway, you'd probably have to leave our house one-hour before a train leaves Penn Station to be sure of getting on it.
Acela Express is supposed to be 2h45 NY-DC, with maybe a few express runs at 2h30. The improvement is pretty minimal because nothing has really changed about the ROW south of NY, they're just bumping up the speeds a little for the new trainset (not even to the 150 mph capability of the equipment). I think new catenary would be needed to run the trains at full speed.
I asssume Acela Express will be pricier than Metroliners, but still cheaper than the shuttles.
Greetings,
Well I have been in Chicago for the past week and finally got a chance to ride their subways. I started out riding on the Blue Line, I got on at the Rosemont Station which is next to the last stop, which is OHare (Airport). First let me start out by saying that this line has no express whatsoever. So I journey about 12-14 stops towards downtown Chicago. The locals call downtown chicago "The Loop" which four trains a real loop. The exit and enter at different corners of the loop. I transfer to the Purple line, which is called the Evanston express. This line exits the loop heading North and skips 9 stops. I believe this is similiar to the old NX express. The track layout of their express is bizzare. What normally is the express for our trains, the two middle tracks, well these two middle tracks are the local tracks with island stations. The outside tracks are the express. Now I must admit once we round the curves leaving the loop and past Wrigley Field, this expressgets up and move. I would easily say that these subways can get up to about 55-60mph and this Purple line was easily doing 55+. I can only compare it to two long expresses I have been on. 1 is the 7 express between Woodside and Junction Blvd and 2 the old express between Union Turnpike and Parson's Blvd eastbound.
I will post part 2 tomorrow on their tracks and 3rd rail.
Frank D
What about signals?
What do you want to know about signals. All of the CTA rail system is protected by signals, either wayside or cab signals. All interlocking plants are protected by wayside signals too. Most interlockings have provision for manual route selection and many are automatic.
The cab signalling can specify a top speed which if exceeded will trigger an audible alarm that the motorman, oops; operator must respond to within seconds or the train will go into emergency.
Wayside signalling is primarily found in the two older subways and on the Eisenhower median (Forest Park-Blue Line). The yellow over yellow timed signals is the only way wayside signals can limit speed. These wayside signals are currently being replaced in the State ST subway (Red Line).
David Harrison
I thought it was strange how they mixed cab and wayside. Is the CTA in the process of changing everything over to cab signals?
Cab signals and wayside signals were never "mixed." You either had one or the other, except that there was some overlap at changeovers.
Before the subways were built in 1943-1950, there was almost no automatic block signalling with train stops. Around curves and at low visibility spots you could find ABS, but no track trips.
The State ST subway opened in 1943 with ABS and trips which extended about a half mile on the elevated. Cab signalling was the economical way to extend protection to the entire rail system. Even the historical cars 4271- 4272 are equipped.
Yes, ABS is being replaced in the State ST subway which is closed on Sunday nights to allow the contractor to work.
There is one unsignalled stretch of track--the Connector along Paulina ST between the Blue Line and the Green Line.
David Harrison
So you're saying that many of the Chicago el's were unsignaled? How did they protect trains? Manual block? Timetable? Do you know the current CSS aspects?
"How did they protect trains?"
Strictly by the motorman's sight, assisted by little diamond-shaped yellow signs on the left side of the track. If the motorman could see the next sign, it was safe to go ahead. If they couldn't, it was because another train was in the way, and they were supposed to slow down or stop. Or, to quote a common bumpersticker nowadays "If you can see this, you're too close." :^)
The last time I looked, there was still one of the diamond signs, with a small incandescent light bulb in each corner, near the junction of the Brown Line with the Red/Purple main line. I don't think the light bulbs have been operative for years.
How did they protect the trains? First, as John Bredin stated, it was mainly motorman attentiveness.
What is CSS?
Thirdly, a sad comment on today's operators. At interlockings, a large printed sign is posted on the signal which reads in effect: "Interlocking HOME SIGNAL, If Red Over Red, STOP AND STAY. If tripped, remain standing, do not move, CALL CONTROL.
Main line railroad engineers shake their heads in disbelief when told of such signs.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
I've also seen signs where red over lunar is the signal which in this case isn't a timer; as on some mainline roads it's "restricting"..lunar on the bottom is of course diverging route.The sign says "proceed on sight thru the interlocking".That is exactly what a restricting or restricted proceed means"..prepared to stop for several reasons including train ahead, switch improperly lined, etc. I won't quote the whole rule. So why do you need a sign if the signal tells you, and the rule with it.
When the lines that previously were "dark" or unsignalled, when signals were installed it wasn't wayside ones, it was cab signals. At least the lines I'm familiar with.
BTW all Manhattan el local tracks were unsignalled until 1955, except at curves or interlockings, no spacing boards like Chicago had, and collisions were very rare, it was a safe RR. The 149-Gun Hill portion of 3rd Ave got signals in 1955 I guess, the only section left besides thePolo Ground Shuttle. BTW the express tracks on the Manhattan el were signalled.
We have our share in NY, too. I see lots of "no key by" signs at signals, and lots of "know your lineup" signs at diverging routes. At Prospect Park on the Brighton Line heading towards Coney Island is a sign reminding train operators to be attentive to the leaves in the fall season. It's like trying to edict common sense.
--Mark
There is, or was, a notice by the signal at the northbound B/D end of the 7th Ave.-53rd St. station which instructed the motorman to STOP and call the 59th St. tower if the signal happened to be red. On one occasion, it was red, and the motorman called the tower. We crawled along to 59th St., where there was another D train in the station and an A train next to us. We were held while the A train went ahead of us, and were switched to the express track once we got going. As I got off that D train, I noticed a yellow-over-yellow aspect on the interlocking signal just to the north of the station, and the train was switched to the local track. As to whether or not it made all local stops, I don't know. We went straight to Port Authority that day; there was no time for a CPW express joyride.
I also wondered why that D train couldn't have been just switched to the local track before 59th St. They do that occasionally nowadays if there is a delay.
When I was in Chicago in 1996, the blue line signals closely resembled the old IRT signals(green over red, etc.). Can't speak for the other lines.
[I transfer to the Purple line, which is called the Evanston express. This line exits the loop heading North and skips 9 stops. I believe this is similiar to the old NX express. The track layout of their express is bizzare. What normally is the express for our trains, the two middle tracks, well these two middle tracks are the local tracks with island stations. The outside tracks are the express.]
Having the local tracks on the inside with island platforms at local stops isn't bizarre. It's actually more logical to have it this way. If the 2nd Avenue Subway is ever built, the local tracks should be buit in the center with island platforms. Potental express stops could be built with side platforms. Then the express tracks could easily be constructed when they need to be without interfering with existing service.
I can think of one brief stretch that the express tracks are inside New York style. The Red line trains to/from the State St. subway use them while the Brown line from the loop makes the local stops on the outside. Stations passed are Wellington and Diversey.
The stations on the blue line on the loop at Washington, Monroe and Jackson is actually one huge station! A straight platform encompassing three stations lasting five blocks! Picture that in New York!
By the way, are the blue and red line trains over there still deafening to the point where you can hear the train coming one station away when you're underground?
Well, they were deafening four years ago when I last rode on those lines. Supposedly, the 2600-series cars have had soundproofing added during rebuilding.
The same stations of the Red Line [State st. subway] are just like the ones that you describe on the Blue Line [Dearborn subway], continuous platform for 3 stations.
If you think it's noisy now should have been around when they had the 6000's. Or maybe with age my ears only think the newer cars are quieter.[ age, subway cabs in the old days, worst of all EMD locomotive cabs]
The 6000s in the State St. subway were ten times louder than the R-10s were in their final days. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that generation of daily riders developed hearing problems in their later years because of the deafening noise level.
The 2600s do a mighty good impression of the 6000s in that regard today, IMHO.
I know zero about Chicago, other than pictures, are the 6000's still running?
Peace,
ANDEE
No the 6000's are not running in Chicago and I should know because I bought five in 1998 to try and keep a set on property to run as historical cars. I have three videos that cover the PCC cars from the 50's to the biter end. Actually there are two hulks left at Skokie. The 2000's are gone too. Historical cars 1892- 1992 are being held at Skokie while the Pullman Museum/Restoration/ goes on.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
The 6000s made their last official revenue trip in, IIRC, December of 1992. I have a railfan alert poster of that event.
The 6000s were based on the design of the PCC streetcar. Indeed, they bore a strong resemblance, especially with their standee windows. The first 200 cars were built from all-new components while the last 570, including the single units, were built using parts cannibalized from postwar Green Hornet streetcars.
Chicago's subways have always been known for their roar. The unique horseshoe shape of the concrete tunnels and the ties on concrete track structure contribute to the decibles, I am sure. Where the ties were mounted in ballast, the noise was more muffled, like at the crossovers and the extension of the Dearborn- Milwaukee subway to connect with the Congress branch. The newer subways are quieter.
The rebuilt 2600's do ride quieter also. Its really noticible when pacing a Red Line train on the Dan Ryan expressway.
David Harrison
I suspect that the main reason the rebuilt 2600's are so much quieter is that they either have new wheels or the existing wheels have been shaved down during the rebuild to eliminate flat spots.
It's actually fairly easy to tell which 2600's have been rebuilt the most recently. I've ridden some of the first 2600-series trains to come back from the shops and they were smooth as silk. But now that they've been in service a while, the decibel level is increasing as the wheels develop more flat spots. Give them time and they'll all be back to "normal."
The 2200's and 2400's aren't exactly whisper-quiet, either, but the 3200's are remarkably quiet in the subway. Thing is, they don't normally run in the subways. The only time I've seen 3200's in the subway was during the aftermath of the blizzard a couple years ago when so many of the 2600's on the Red and Blue Lines were crippled that many 3200's had been pulled from the Orange and Brown Lines to fill in. I remember seeing a train of 3200's at the Logan Square stop on the Blue Line and being impressed at how quiet they were leaving the station. (BTW, a train of 3200's at Logan Square probably would have been a pretty good photo op. I vaguely recall that they even still had the Orange Line destination signs up, but I could be mistaken.)
Of course, the greatest roar on the Chicago subway was the long straight stretch of the Blue Line between Division and Clark/Lake on weekends (because the stop at Chicago Avenue is only a part-time station) a couple years ago, before the stop at Grand had been re-opened. Now that the trains must stop at Grand, they don't really have a chance to achieve that glorious roar that left people's eardrums bleeding.
I was once lucky enough to ride a train of 6000-series "Spam Cans" through that stretch. I remember standing at the UIC-Halsted stop waiting for an inbound train to take me home. By this time the last of the 6000's had been retired from service, but apparently a few still existed in various yards around the system. I guess the CTA needed to move a train of 6000's from the Forest Park yard to the Rosemont yard, and apparently somebody said hell with it and made it a regular revenue run. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and managed to catch this train. I normally would have gotten off at Jackson to transfer to the Red Line or the #22 bus, but instead I rode it out to Damen so I could experience The Roar. The weather was warm that day, so of course all the windows were open on the pre-air conditioning 6000's. My ride that afternoon still ranks as one of the greatest railfan experiences.
Now, could you all please speak a little louder? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
In my video I call those Blue Line trips, "the PCC Blues"...and you know Chicago is the Blues Capital. The PCC 5/50 cars were stored "ready for service" at that time because they had been rehabbed with Federal money and they couldn't be disposed of, even though they were no longer needed. Blue Line management like train buffs and when the cars needed inspections, they ran them in service.
The last revenue run featured a six car train in service for two round trips; then the train ran from O'Hare to Howard using the Connector Track.
But talk about great railfan experiences, last year when the CTA ran the Cincinnati brown historical cars, 4271- 4272; the charter pulled into Belmont to reverse directions to go to Kimball. The doors open to let a few get off and the conductor announced to amazed platform passengers, "Anyone wanting to ride all the way to Kimball, get on board now."
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
bigedirtmanl wrote:
> The same stations of the Red Line [State st. subway]
> are just like the ones that you describe on the Blue
> Line [Dearborn subway], continuous platform for 3
> stations.
Yep; in fact the continuous platform on the Red Line is longer by a couple of blocks.
> If you think it's noisy now should have been around
> when they had the 6000's. Or maybe with age my ears
> only think the newer cars are quieter.
If you think the PCC's were noisy, you should have been around with the 4000's were running in the subway! Aah, you kids these days don't know how easy you had it. Why, when I was your age, I was already senile, mutter grumble.
Aside from any change in your hearing, or in the inherent noisiness of the cars, there are now sound-deadening panels installed on the outer walls of the Chicago stations.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
As I always see the old wood and old steel equipment thru the rosiest glasses guess I can't remember the 4000's being that noisy. Beloved old stuff! I did ride the L (that's what the last letter of my handle means) for a few weeks in 61 and again a few weeks in 63, and was pleased to no end to ride the 4000's as much as I could.
They were still in rush hour service on the present Blue Line, only frtom Logan Square [elevated] terminal, as far as it went then to Douglas Park. I timed myself for one several days. They had all baldies on that line.
Lake and Evanston had the deluxe models mostly and Ravenswood had all baldies in 61, mixed in 63 if I recall. The last of the glory days. Too bad I missed the North Shore by a week on the 1963 visit.
The cars need the soundproofing more than anything else.
Perhaps you could confirm this: did the 4000s moan and groan the way other equipment with spur-cut bull and pinion gears did? I remember seeing them go by on the Evanston Express and thought I heard a high-pitched whine (F# above middle C, perhaps) above the clackety-clack sounds they gave off.
The interest in HOW the Chicago sounds brings up an interesting idea. I have the video recording of the 4271-4272 on the IRM/J. Doyle charter through the State ST subway in 1999. Normally the video is edited from the visual standpoint (shaky, out of focus scenes eliminated) but what you might want here are the long audible passages down the incline, though the tunnels, through stations, etc, with digital stills over the bad video.
The charter played tag with a SB Brown Line train from Fullerton into the incline. In the subway, it ran nonstop to Clark and Division where it let the leader get ahead. It kept a moderate space through the downtown then stopped for a photo shoot at the then closed Harrison station while a NB "Roared" by. After Roosevelt it was a slow trip up the rusty incline before going out onto the Midway line--first time ever for a 4000.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
How fast would you say that charter train got up to? I've read the 4000s topped out at 40, maybe 45 mph on level track.
I would say the majority of the running was at about 35mph even with a 55mph signal indication. The CTA doesn't want to stress the cars too much. After the stop at Clark and Division they really opened the throttle to catch up to the road train. On the Midway there were some good stretches.
Then there were the slow runs because of trees overhanging the right of way. Remember the 4000's have trolleys and they didn't want them to snag. The charter had to creep under the first station canopy at Halsted on the Orange to verify it would clear.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
YES! The 4000's had the beloved sound of traction motor growl [as I prefer to call it] just like most all traction equipment of their period[ from the early days to the mid 30's: The R1-9 were one of the holdovers that still had the old sounds]. You'd have liked the 4000's..if you had a chance to do much riding on them.
I base my dates on the BMT Multi's of the mid 30's, IIRC they sounded more like R10's etc.
Tell me about it. You don't know how many times I wished I could have gone for a ride on the 4000s when they were still around. I even casually mentioned the Evanston Express once while we were visiting my grandmother and aunt in Chicago, to which my aunt replied, "It doesn't stop anywhere". Granted, we would have had to go out to Howard to catch one, but still..... I could always tell whenever they went by; they sounded distinctly different from the 6000s.
For a few years beginning in 1969, I worked in a building at 226 W. Jackson, a block from the Quincy station on the Loop. Even without glancing at the clock, I could always tell when it got to be 3:30 or so, from the distinctive sound of 4000s beginning the afternoon rush Evanston Express service.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The newly renovated 2600's do offer a quieter ride inside then the
un-rehabbed ones, but you can still hear them comming at the continuous Lake/Washington/Monroe/Jackson and Washington/Monroe/Jackson Stations on the Red & Blue Lines Downtown.
The 3200's make less noise on the Elevated sections then the 2600's do. It would seem to make more sense to me to transfer all the 3200's to the Red & Blue lines which use subways. Transfer as many 2600 series cars as possible to The Green, Brown, Purple, and Orange Line's, which use the Elevated Loop Downtown.
That would be using some common sense, which the CTA doesn't seem to have a concept of yet. Thought, they have been working on developing it in the last 5 years or so with the push to bring riders back.
I guess the Orange Line to Midway & Brown to the North-Side "Rich Areas" get the new cars, because of the higher class crowd that rides them?? Then, it wouldn't make sense though, because the Blue Line to O'Hare operates the remaining 2200's & the rest 2600's. Their probably is no logic to it though. I would mix all of the cars on all of the lines if it was up to me!! Why have all the cars that break down in the snow on one line and all the cars that are winter proof on another?? Creat 3 hour delays on one and have perfect service on the other!! Why not mix that cars and have minimal delays on all the lines in an emergency. That's the CTA for Ya.
BJ
PS: The NYC Subway seems to quite for me when I first arrive in NYC on a vacation, almost like there is something wrong because the train isn't making enough noise!!
I would disagree with your notion to mix all the cars up and I am sure any maintenance person would too. You keep your flet of cars as much alike as possible to keep servicing simplier and to keep inventory of supplies manageable.
The 2200 Budd cars are not handicap accessible and CTA policy currently stipulates that no train can be composed entirely of these types. An eight car Blue line train will have one 2600 married pair at least.
David Harrison
>>> The stations on the blue line on the loop at Washington, Monroe and Jackson is actually one huge station! A straight platform encompassing three stations lasting five blocks! <<<
Does a single train stop three times at different places along the platform? Or do different trains stop at different places on the platform?
Tom
Does a single train stop three times at different places along the platform?
Yup..... That is how it is done.
So there are about two or three train lengths were a train never stops, but the platform just continues.
These two long platforms run parallel to each other about a block or maybe two apart, and at the ends of them there are passageways that connect them.
So you could walk a big square all under ground.
Elias
It may not be bizarre, but to a New Yorker it is uncommon in the subway seen. Usually this is the effect of seperate companies building a subway, on the Purple/Red lines, it starts out with local trains/stops on the outside then convert the other between Belmont and Howard. This is also somewhat similiar to the LIRR, when the Montauk/Babylon Branch meets the Far Rockaway/Long Beach Branch and station Rosedale and Valley Stream have an island station on the Far Rockaway/Long Beach Branches.
Frank D
Our suburban line, Metra Electric, from downtown to the far south boonies has the locals on the inside two tracks with island platforms and the express on the outside. This four track main runs from just south of Roosevelt to just north of Kensington (115th ST). Four stations in Woodlawn/Hyde Park have the platforms between tracks 1/2 and between 3/4 for local/express stopping.
At Kensington, everything is down to two tracks. After the station the South Shore goes left, and a little bit farther the single track Blue Island Branch goes to the right. The two track main heads south to University Park with all island stations. Both tracks are CTC and signalled for both directions and during rush hours the road becomes a one-way speedway with no counter- direction trains scheduled for almost two hours.
David Harrison
And when I was a kid the racetrack from Roosevelt to 53rdwas SIX tracks with the 'Specials and South Shore line on the out side, the 'expresses on the next and locals center. Neat. Even as a 2x old,in the sixties, the old green cars tore on that section. Service to downtown was faster than current schedules. And more frequent particularly on the South Chgo branch--then serving neighborhoods with many downtown workers--standees on 8 car trains.
Okay first:
Why were all of the stations between Dempster and Howard Eliminated? I know this is what made it the "Skokie Swift" but back in the 60s why did they do this?
Second:
When and Why was the Lake cut back from Forest Park?
Third:
The Blue line to 22nd St - did it operate on third rail or pants? (I am assuming pants)
Fourth: When and Why was the Douglas cut back?
thanx
The stations between Dempster and Howard weren't really eliminated in creating the Skokie Swift. The CTA had closed the old Skokie line down 15 years prior in 1948 and had substituted bus service.
The Skokie tracks were used by the North Shore interurban, but their trains ran non-stop between Dempster and Howard.
The Skokie Swift was a demonstration project that proved that fast rail transit could win back ridership from the automobile. The high speed 75 mph PCC cars would be used in one car-single train, one operator mode with pantographs for remote on the fly changeover at the end of third rail territory.
A fast sit down ride was promised with the drawback that all riders had to transfer at Howard to continue their trip downtown. A mid trip station stop would devastate the speed aspect of the service so it wasn't included.
The success of the line forced the CTA to put in service additional cars that were slower and finally the 4 compartment cars were converted into high capacity one man trains. They held down for 22 years.
Question 2
Lake Street began operating on the new elevation between Laramie and Harlem on the CNW embankment in 1962 eliminating street running and the overhead trolley.
Questions 3 and 4
The Blue Line to 22nd ST and the Douglas Park are the same. The surface portion like the elevated stretches was third rail powered. (As is surface tracks on the Ravenswood and the old Garfield Park). The CTA discontinued rail service west of 54th AV in 1952. The Garfield Park eliminated service west of Des Plaines in 1951 although the Aurora & Elgin soldiered on. The reason cited most often in service cutbacks during those times was loss in ridership. Automobile usage was soaring and the expressway system was rapidly being put into place.
These questions keep me on my toes, thanks. Hopefully they'll improve my video comentary too. David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
Some additional info:
Q2: The "cut back" of the Lake St. line from Forest Park when it was elevated in the early 1960s was about 1 block. When the line was moved to the C&NW embankment, a single station with entrances at both Harlem and Marion replaced two former stations, one at Marion St. and the Forest Park terminal one block west of Harlem.
It is interesting to note that the elevation of the outer portion of the Lake St line was made possible by the reduction in the 1950s of the C&NW main line from 5 to 3 tracks in the area.
-- Ed Sachs
You are right when you say Chicago has no express service. The Evanston route is no longer referred to as the Evanston Express, its the Purple Line, although it doesn't stop between Howard and Belmont except for Cubs night baseball games.
Chicago long ago did away with the middle express tracks on the Lake Street and on the South Side main and in the last decade did away with A/B skip stop service too.
Today ALL trains, "L" and subway are one person operated and the rail service depends upon widely spaced stations and the aceleration and deceleration of high performance 70mph equipment to post any fast running times. Trains are electronically limited to 58 mph though.
Remember, we're third in rail transit today, behing NY and Washington's Metro. Subways...; there's just four and two are short. We have more expressway median than subways
and with stations an average mile apart, the trains really fly, except for places with bad track work.
Check out my videos at any time, and you'll see.
David Harrison
Well, I will say that all the car parking garages located in the vicinity of the Loop must have built by railfans. Every block, there's one where you can get some really great runbys of the trains. One in particular is 13 (or 14?) stories high!
There also one of there garages right by Tower 18. I could stay there all day and watch the action. It's non-stop.
--Mark
I forget if it was Marshall Field or Carson, Pirie, Scott store, but on one floor on the Wabash side there are windows offering an almost track level view of trains running by on the loop. Excellent, but don't know if they'd appreciate you standing there for hours watching the trains! For a few minutes nobody would think about it.
Only one correction to the info you posted, not to be rude or anything, but the Purple Line Express Skips 12 Stations between Howard and Belmont, not 9, and 11 when it stops at Addison for Cubs Night Games during the season. Addison is one stop north of Belmont, when trains stop there they switch to the inner track after Belmont and then back to the outer to begin their express run. It is more fun when they don't stop there. No-one knows of the variation anyway, and the doors open and close with no-one getting on or off the train.
We may be only a few years away from having some kind of North-Side Express train line here in Chicago. The Blue Line taking so long from O'Hare isn't a major concern, despite the rate of only around 11.25 miles per hour. It is considered by many Chicago guides as one of the fastest CTA Runs. They say this because traffic on the Kennedy is always backed up and moves even slower then the trains do. Usually around 1 hour and even more in rush hour and especially when bad weather occurs.
The Eisenhower Express sucks, despite what you guys have posted. I have tried to drive it at many different times of the day besides rush hour and usually 1 out of 4 I will get a good non-stop run. At other times the Traffic backs up through & Before the bottle neck and is solid the entire way to Downtown. I usually get off at Des Plaines for the Blue Line or Central to visit relatives. The Best way is to avoid it at all times besides overnight hours (Past 9 pm) and take a local road like 31st Street to Des Plaines. That is the Best way to get to the El at Forest Park from the West.
Back to the North Side Express. Anyway, in my opinion and apparently the CTA's also, it takes too long to get to Downtown from Howard and especially if you have to transfer from the Yellow or Purple Line. During non-Purple express times a ride from the Loop to Downtown Evanston can take up to and hour and a 1/2 with transfer times included. That is way too long for only 14 miles or so, compared to a half hour with the express.
I have heard that a Red Line Express is in the planning stages with it stopping at major stops on the North-Side and then circling the Loop in downtown via the Brown Line Tracks. I would guess they would re-open the Express platforms at Wilson & Sheridan and construct more Double Island Platforms at a few more stations. The only question would be what would they do during Purple Line Express Hours when those trains are running non-stop between Howard and Belmont??
BJ
[I have heard that a Red Line Express is in the planning stages with it stopping at major stops on the North-Side and then circling the Loop in downtown via the Brown Line Tracks. I would guess they would re-open the Express platforms at Wilson & Sheridan and construct more Double Island Platforms at a few more stations. ]
Where could a normal dude like me find out more about this proposal?
Might make more sense to run in into the State St. subway, since Grand/State and Chicago/State probably get A LOT more traffic than the Mart and Chicago/Franklin. The train could then switch back after Roosevelt, go down the Green Line (return of the Howard-Englewood-Jackson Pk! w/o Jackson Pk.) or just run down the Ryan Median.
They should ditch the Evanston Shuttle right now.
The idea of a Red Line Express in Chicago must be wishful thinking as none of my contacts knows anything of such an idea. When Chicago did away with skip stop in favor of fewer, though longer trains, on greater headways, together with single person operation, speedier transit wasn't a component of those ideas.
David Harrison
When I lived in Chicago our family didn't put up with the Eisenhower, we rode the Metra - however on the rare occasions we did drive in, we would usually take Roosevelt Road as far as Mannheim to avoid the bottleneck where 88 (E-W Tollway) goes to one lane before joining the Eisenhower. The Evanston situation absolutely sucks. Instead of a "Red Line Express" the answer is very simple, run the Evanston Express all day. The Red line's north segment has some of the most closely-spaced stops in the system, the reason being the original designers of the line thought there would be an express run for Howard and points north. Of course the express only runs during rush hours so that whole point was nullified to midday and weekend riders. I am not a fan of skip-stop service. For the time you save, having to stand in a station while a train blows by right in front of you on the same track you will be boarding on sucks. The real answer would be to convert one of those 12 stations, preferably somewhere in the middle, to double islands and then run the express rush hours, middays, evenings and saturdays (sundays and owls i don't know). You'd get the existing Howard-downtown ridership plus the people transferring at the new express station. As for the Skokie Swift... perhaps making the Skokie Swift just an extension of the Red Line would be the way to go. Red Line trains would just use Howard as a through station and then continue to Dempster. That's a real express...
Where did you "hear" the idea of a Red Line express. It sounds like wishful thinking. My source tell me there's no such plan in the works.
David Harrison
I heard about there being a possible Red Line Express in the Future from Graham Garfield. He operates the Chicago-l.org web site with news, info, pictures, and a lot more about the L.
I get a lot more info. from him, as he updates his site regularly, then you hear from the CTA. They only tell you major stuff. He says minor like Car Transfers and sometimes even major stuff they forget to mention at yourcta or transitchicago.com.
He also works with the CTA to develop their web site. I'm not sure if he is officially employed by them, or what job title he has.
But I have asked him about possible expansion on the Evanston Express, and he told me about the Red Line Express that was in the planning stages. He usually is the most acurate with CTA info, even more then the CTA themselves. Go to Chicago-L.org and drop him an e-mail.
I personally would like to see the Purple and Red Line's made into one, dual line through Evanston. All Red Line trains continue through Howard to Linden Street Terminal in Wilmette. South-Bound at Howard the Express, Purple Line Trains, make only Express Stations between Howard and Belmont, including a few more added such as Wilson & Sheridan, and possibly a half way point station between Wilson and Howard. Thorndale or Berwyn would be a good idea. After Belmont, make all the stations to the Loop. Between Belmont and Downtown, the neighborhood is booming, and ridership is too high to skip stations. Reason for Recent Brown Line Booming hours. Circle the Loop and Return back to Linden.
The Local, Red Line, makes all the stops on the normal route to 95th/Dan Ryan They then could keep the Red & Purple Line's and just have both operate to Linden Terminal in Wilmette. The problem would be the massive facilities already located at Howard. The trains would have to return after going out of service at Linden to the Howard Yard via the Main Line South-Bound Track through Evanston.
I personally think something will happen in the next 5 to 10 years or so. The North-Side of Chicago and Chicago in general is becomming one of the most popular places in the Midwest to live in. People are moving back into the city as fast as they moved out many years ago. I personally have always loved big cities and think this is great. Chicago has everything you could possibly want. NYC just has a little bit more, making it a little bit better. Anyway, ridership has been consistently going up in these areas because of the traffic headaches and parking a rare dinosaur. It will only continue to go up until something besides more Brown Line Trains and Service can solve the problem.
BJ
Dreams aside, anything involving masive car shifts, route extensions, new platforms, additional interlockings, probably brings chills to CTA management. Look more for small increments like extending the hours of the Purple Line downtown and please don't refer to the Purple as the E------ Express (Smile)
The long range expectations might involve reinstitution of the CTA's 1950 invention....yes I know....A/B skip stop might come back, now that one person operation has settled into its groove. What ever changes happen, I'll get it all on video.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
The Purple line will always be the Evanston Express to me. Old habits die hard.
I have always known the Purple Line as the Evanston Express, what would you prefer to call it?? The new announcements call it " A Purple Line Express train". The Current CTA System map refers to it as the Purple Line Evanston Shuttle and Express. I could only think that Evanston-Wilmette would be more appropriate, because the Linden Terminal is in Wilmette after all.
Loop to Lincoln Park (Belmont) Local, (Belmont) Lincoln Park to Evanston Express. Evanston to Wilmette (Linden) Terminal Local. These would be the best way to describe it in my opinion. The Automated announcements should be more descriptive and say stuff like this. They currently say to Howard only after Belmont, this is stupid, they should say Non-stop Express to Howard and all Purple Line Stations north of Howard. This makes people think the train is only going to Howard.
Operating the Purple Line all day may be the only realistic solution the CTA Will implement. Has the Express ever run in the past during non-rush hours, and how long ago was it?? It hasn't been since 1952 since the Brown Line ran on Sundays to Downtown. They like to look at old operations and implement them again if necessary, and state the last date it ran like it is going to.
I guess we will just have to wait and see if anything really happens. Ridersip levels will have to keep going up, up, and up for them to consider bringing back more service or new service. I think they will continue to go up, so this can only bring more good.
BJ
PS: The only good thing is, the last N-bound Express train in the morning is at around 10:15, so you can get up late and still catch the last one up to Evanston to have a summer day at the beach. You then can catch it back also, with the first leaving around 3:15 p.m.
I like that..."state the last date it ran like it is going to." That would apply to the hundreds of millions for the Brown Line to have eight car trains when the Ravenswood used TO HAVE eight car trains.
David Harrison
OK, the Brown Line never had eight car trains. The CTA does implement new service also, I just think it makes them happier when they can bring back old service. It gives the media a sense that people are comming back to public transportation they had abandoned in the past. This is very true here in CTA Land.
Grand/Milwaukee on the Blue Line and many other "new" Stations or service, for the younger city crowd, are actually old services offered again. I do like the Garfield Park Conservatory/Central Park Street Station idea on the Green Line. This time they are using the old Homan Station structure and moving it to the West about 1/4 mile to have proper spacing and placing the station right in the middle of the Conservatory & at Central Park Ave. Where they are working on this station, on the Lake St. Portion of the Green Line, it is the only current slow zone. Let's hope it stays this way for a long time. I have been riding the Lake St. Portion of the Green Line for the Last week or so, just because I haven't in a long time. As I have said before, the speed it has and long streches between some stations are great. This is the last remaining station structure they can use to open a station on the Green Line Lake St. portion, so it should keep it's speed for a while. They would have to construct any new stations from scratch, which I don't see happening. Halsted & Lake is the only station missing, it was deconstructed compleately for some reason during the renovation, while Homan was left. Why?? They had the Garfield Park Conservatory Station in plans for the future??
BJ
So no one would bite' eh....Eight cars on the Ravenswood! Before the North-South Englewood-Howard/Jackson Park-Howard, the Englewood was linked with the Ravenswood and the Jackson Park linked with the Howard/Evanston with eight car trains using the State Street subway. The eight car trains were the 4000 series steel Cincinnati Cars, except that the end doors on the first and eighth car weren't used. Thus the platforms on today's Brown Line north of Belmont are longer than those south of Belmont like Wellington, Armitage, etc. Except that in rebuilding the Chicago/ Franklin and the Merchandise Mart platforms, they were lengthened to accomodate eight car trains. In the 4000's day, by not using the end doors, platforms had to be only about 25 feet longer than a six car train to accomodate eight cars. Our modern day CTA "L" cars have the doors at the quarter points rather than at the ends.
A sign with an eight obscured with a diagonal red line is at the entrance of the shorter Brown Line stations when 8 car Red Line trains are rerouted. BTW, this Sunday night is the last scheduled reroute for State Street signal work.
Getting back to the Green Line, Homan Avenue station is on some Historical Places list and couldn't be destroyed. On the south side, 58th Street was constructed with Federal funds and was kept to avoid repaying the money spent, plus being an island station, it might have a future purpose for a shuttle at the end of the Green Line. BTW the new Garfield station is well underway. I don't know what is to become of the old station house. Finally all the new steel from the unused Dorchester station on the torn down east 63rd street leg is still piled up next to the 61st street yards. Lastly, Lake street, the CTA probably planned to replace Halsted with a station at Morgan, close to their rail headquarters. The walkways
are already in place there.
David Harrison
So, when is the ATC signalling in the State Street Subway supposed to
be activated? Will the old ABS signals just be turned off and left
in place, or will they be taken out? I'll miss them. At least we still
have the Dearborn subway and the Congress line for traditional ABS
signalling, but who knows how long it'll be before those signals are
replaced too.
There's still a lot of work to go. The components have to be wired up. Then the cut-in will be done in stages, not the whole subway at once. I'll get back with a better timetable. Did you know there are unused time signals for the inclines under the river? Count the aspect lenses.
David Harrison
There's actually been a slow zone on the southbound incline for quite a while, but it's not enforced by timers. I'm not sure why it's there. On the northbound incline, trains are allowed to proceed at full speed.
Could this railfan be one of you SubTalkers? I spotted him at the La Plata MO station stop while aboard the Southwest Chief. If this isn't one of you it does give you a vague idea of what you look like to the train passengers/crew as you video tape and take photos. I overheard this sample dialogue while taking this photo:
Daughter: Mommey, what is that man doing?
Mommey: Taking pictures of the train.
Daughter: Why is he doing that?
Mommey: Maybe its his job to take pictures of all the trains.
(Yeah, that's it)
I am on a mission to document railfans in the process of railfanning. Does this make me a railfan-fan?
well i am shooting redbirds this late october ( oh well )
"" project redbird "" while they still last ....
Every so often, my Subtalk configuration settings get reset. This just happened tonight. All of a sudden, only the most recent messages were displayed, and I was not remembered at all. Even as I post this message, the name fields were no longer filled in. Apparently, the cookies have disappeared. Does this happen often?
By the way, if it helps, I use Netscape.
- Lyle Goldman
Did you do anything to the cookies.txt file? That's where Netscape keeps it's cookies, including those for SubTalk and BusTalk.
If you used anything other than Quarterdeck/Norton CleanSweep to edit the cookies.txt file, Netscape will trash it and start a new one.
Do what I did. Under the users folder will be the folder with the name Netscape gave the user (for example, Lawrence). Under that folder will be folders for the cache, mail and news. Create a new folder under the username folder called Archive. Then copy the cookies.txt, netscape.hst and bookmark.htm to that folder. (you will find those files in the username folder.) That way, if Netscape trashes any of those files, simply copy the files in your Archive folder back to the username folder and you're back in business.
If you suffer from the dissapearing file syndrome, you may have a virus, unless you have a anti-virus program and keep it updated.
Let me know, either by post or e-mail how you made out.
Even w/o a virus, Netscape will sometimes glitch and dump the bookmarks or cookies. It happens to me every once in a while. As you said, the best defense is to keep duplicate files under different names, update them once in a while, and use them to restore as needed.
Check to see if your cache size is too small. You may also have a virus.
-Hank
> Check to see if your cache size is too small.
How big goes it have to be, and what effect will that have?
> You may also have a virus.
I don't have a virus. I checked.
- Lyle Goldman
The cache has nothing to do with your cookies. The real issue that web browsers just suck. Bugs just don't get fixed in the race for adding the new features that the competition has been implementing. So once in a while when your cookies/history/bookmarks get trashed it's the price you have to pay. (Well considering the browsers are free anyway.... it's a small price.)
-Dave
With IE, it's been my experience that the cache size has an effect on the cookies. If the cache is too small, IE actually prioritizes graphics over cookies.
-Hank
I'll tell you what "pigs", I will be going by there again tomorrow on the express bus via the Queensboro Bridge. I will take another look at the southern tip of the island. I know exactly the building that you are talking about because it's in my wedding photos(our reception was at the Water's Edge catering hall on the river). If I'm wrong I'll admit it tomorrow, but I am confident that the building was leveled.
I know the Smallpox Hospital is still there. Just the other day, I explored the remains, and even found some test tubes (I was going to take one as a souvenir, but it broke).
I'd write some more, but these %$#&@ spots all over me are itching too much.
Peter,do tell. What is the Island like? I'm coming down to NYC later in October searching for vintage historical places to photograph and that was one of the areas I was planning on doing. Any modern ruins or has the whole place been leveled and taken away. Someone posted that there was a guard at the front gate. What are they protecting. Last, did you drive or take the tram?
Marty.
I wasn't able to make the trip to verify it. However, Peter Rosa says the place is still there and he went inside it recently so it looks like I'm wrong(I've been wrong about a lot of things lately other than subtalk stuff).
Does anyone have a fork that I can use for my humble pie?
I wasn't able to make the trip to verify it. However, Peter Rosa says the place is still there and he went inside it recently so it looks like I'm wrong(I've been wrong about a lot of things lately other than subtalk stuff).
Er, if you go back and read my posting, you'll notice that it wasn't quite meant to be taken entirely seriously ... thank God.
Hey, zman, at least humble pie tastes better than crow!
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
This week ( before the los angeles MTA transit strike ) I was able with the help of a very nice motorman install my sony handycam inside the transverse cab of the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE here!
They dont call me the "Los Angeles Rail System" for nothing here !!
With a 0.4 natural low light lux you see everything shocked even me!
It starts at sunset ( he works the closing shift ) & you see 3 1/2
trips total aprox. 2 1/2 hours total then off to detroit to see the winter sunset thru the railfan window of the DPM detroit people mover!
Hate to boast & brag but this video is good Xlnt reviews so far !!
Not a bad addition to the true railfan video fan person!!
my e mail is still the same.. same low price !
photos://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
This week ( before the los angeles MTA transit strike ) I was able with the help of a very nice motorman install my sony camcorder inside the transverse cab of the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE here!
They dont call me the "Los Angeles Rail System" for nothing here !!
With a 0.4 natural low light lux you see everything shocked even me!
It starts at sunset ( he works the closing shift ) & you see 3 1/2
trips total aprox. 2 1/2 hours total then off to detroit to see the winter sunset thru the railfan window of the DPM detroit people mover!
Hate to boast & brag but this video is good Xlnt reviews so far !!
Not a bad addition to the true railfan video fan person!!
my e mail is still the same.. same low price !
photos://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
i read recently that the mta will no longer set the clock back on the testing unless its a real emergency. if a door doesn't work that will no longer put the train back 30 days. The mta just wants to get the testing done. the 6 new r142a's will go in service regardless of the 30 day rule.
uhhhhhh... does this strike anyone else as strange?
or are we mainly concerned as to which lines will get the new cars?
[The mta just wants to get the testing done. the 6 new r142a's will go in service regardless of the 30 day rule.
uhhhhhh... does this strike anyone else as strange?]
Yes.
Several months ago I suggested that this (changes in the test criteria) would happen and I posed a question. The question related to the selection of Bombardier as the primary car builder despite the perception that the Kawasaki cars were more likely to meet the test criteria. Few if any had any thoughts on the subject. Now things have changed and I pose the question again. WHY?????
of course, we can continue to debate real transit issues like whether railfan windows should be tinted or polorized, instead. We don't want to lose some of our resident transit experts.
Well, I think it's because few if any of us are really qualified to speak to the possible difference in quality between the two manufacturers. I'm sure both manufacturers can produce a quality product.
Just because the Kawasaki train got on the road first does not mean that in the end, their product will be the better one. I don't remember any debate on why the order was split 60/40 Bom/Kaw. before the cars started to be delivered. Bombardier builds a lot of rail vehicles for the region's rail systems (e.g. NJT) with no problems, right? It probably came down to what each of the manufacturers was willing to commit to building-- Bombardier being the bigger rail manufacturer in the area could probably commit to a larger order at the time. Kawasaki has to ship parts from Japan, it will naturally take a little longer end-to-end so it seems reasonable that they might want a smaller share. But then, us laypeople don't have any insider information as to why the contracts were let the way they were. If it WAS based on perceived quality the perception was that of the MTA and I'm sure they have good reasons but *I* certainly don't know what they are.
I don't really see anything wrong with introducing a few more trainsets to the test program before the first set is finished. It's not like the delivery of the remaining 1000 cars has begun. Why not let some additional crews get experience dealing with the potential problems that the new trains might experience?
I had this question a while back: is it reasonable to expect the test train to go 30 days without a door fault or something else minor that would leave a regular train on the road? I don't think it's unreasonable that certain faults are dropped from the testing criteria over time.
However, the general public (that being most of the people on this Board) hasn't even seen a copy of the test criteria. What constitutes a failure significant enough to reset the clock? We don't really know.
I think it would be interesting to see not only the detailed criteria but also a statistic along with each one, namely how often does this criteria fail on a regular road train? Maybe some of the little things that occur under normal operation SHOULD be dropped from the testing program.
-Dave
dave... i think your points are well taken...
when did the mta start the 30 day testing program for acceptance of new equipment?
are the manufacturers working at full capacity during this testing period?
did political considerations influence the change in the testing process?
I don't really see anything wrong with introducing a few more trainsets to the test program before the first set is finished. It's not like the delivery of the remaining 1000 cars has begun. Why not let some additional crews get experience dealing with the potential problems that the new trains might experience?
This is a great point. Testing a few trainsets rather than one at the same time would allow (little) flaws to be flushed out faster than if only one trainset were being tested.
I also think some people at NYC Transit realized that an incorrect automated announcement was not a situation that could imperil the safe operation of the train, and might therefore be exempt from the 30 day test. Something like a BIE of unknown origin would be another matter.
--Mark
"... is it reasonable to expect the test train to go 30 days without a door fault or something else minor that would leave a regular train on the road? I don't think it's unreasonable that certain faults are dropped from the testing criteria over time ..."
The MTA/TA has set very high standards, some a little excessive with the result that a number of mfg. have been killed by them. This has happened in the bus as well as RT car industry.
To me a car that's a piece of junk shouldn't be accepted & the mfg. should pay the price for trying to stick the City with it, BUT the mfg. should be allowed to delivered & get paid for a car that is basically OK. Small problems can be handled during the warranty period, AND if the mfg. trys to stonewall the MTA, they can always hold up paying on some of the invoices.
The Federal Government does something called "progress payments" that let the mfg. get partially paid as they goe thru the production process. (I worked for a little gear company, the Gov. came in and wanted to see that we had the raw mat'l inhouse, had cut it into "blanks" & had mfg. a prototype ... we did & got paid) (we ran the thing that was going to go in a gyroscope on a test stand & got some more cash)
Wasn't it Washington D.C. that asks for bids on a small bus order & no one replied ?
Mr t__:^)
From a project manager's perspective...
My organization develops and tests complex software for systems that are "mission critical" in the world's largest communications network. When we develop new software for these systems, we go through a process that is akin to the 30-day test being used by the TA for the new subway cars. At first, the requirements are rigid, but after a period of time the logic becomes more of "are we improving things significantly" rather than "are we perfect". As the project manager, it is within my discretion to initiate a modification to the criteria for declaring success; this modification to the criteria must also be accepted by the organization that will provide support for this software once it is delivered. They have stopped the process a couple of times rather than agree, but usually they will trust my judgment and we end up with a significantly better product in the field much more quickly than if we had waited for "perfection". I suspect that this is the logic prevailing at the TA now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Let me suggest a reason why the MTA might want to get the R142's running as soon as possible.
Recent maintenance of the redbird fleet has been abysmal. The MTA has not wanted to "waste" money on cars that would soon be replaced. This neglect will become public knowledge, if these cars are not retired soon. Therefore, the R142's will be accepted regardlwss of the acceptance tests. Call it their "social promotion" policy.
I hadn't really considered that when I posed my question because it did not distinguish between kawasaki & Bombardier. However it is worthy of consideration. I figured you or heypaul might have been curious enough to look at the management of Bombardier for a hint.
On a marginally related subject, I read in the Times yesterday or the day before that one of the ways the major airlines are addressing their abysmal on-time performance problems is by padding the flight schedule with extra minutes. This only serves to hide the real problem, and solves nothing. The thinking is: If you can't win the game, change the rules. So goes the R142A testers here, it seems. But in this case, it appears as though the testing criteria may have been a bit too harsh.
Yes that is the size of it. The 30 day test was nothing more then a joke. Right now new trains are coming every week and they are running out of space to put these trains so there just going to hit the road. Oct 1 Pelham will have cars 7211-7270 if everything goes to plan. The test will be done in October.
Today is one of PATH Customers Appreciation Days, they were giving out pens, pads, card holders, canvas bags and gardens in a can.
What??! All I got was a lousy card holder.
-Dave
I was there at 7:30 ish and people were taking things like they were giving away gold!
Customers? I always thought transit carried passengers?
everyone but PATH!
And, it would appear, Washington Metro, which routinely makes announcements informing "customers" of delays along the routes.
Using the term "customers" would seem to imply a more active relationship between a service provider and those who are paying for the service. In other words, referring to passengers as "customers" is a psychological tool meant to heighten a service mentality. When I worked as a bartender for a national restaurant chain, part of our training was to refer to the restaurant patrons as "guests" as opposed to "customers." Imagine PA announcements beginning with, "Attention Guests of NYC Transit..."!
[... "guests" as opposed to "customers." (vs. passengers) Imagine PA announcements beginning with, "Attention Guests of NYC Transit..."!]
At the Shoreline trolley museum they are "guests". I consider myself part of the "service industry", and am glad that I don't have to flip burgers.
Mr t__:^)
A customer is one who buys goods, a buyer or a patron.
The word Custom is even more interesting esp vis a vis transit where it can include:
1) habitual patronage
2) a customary tax or tribute
3) a toll or duty
Therefore it may be our duty to habitually pay a toll to patronize a taxing service bevexed with tribulations!
Elias
Speaking of 'custom' it doesn't seem uncommon in England for a shopkeeper to say, or to have a sign on the door, that says 'Thank you for your custom'. Thought that was kind of unusual speaking mostly American English... two countries separated by a common language. :-)
"Have a nice day" is now creeping into everyday English English.
Simon
Swindon UK
Amen to the tribulations! I've noticed the term "guest assstance..meaning cusomer assistance" at Walmart for one.
As for the Railroad business it has been several years now the passengers are referred to as customers, and likewise the term shipperfor freight lines is also a customer. Asi es la vida..such is life.
Or freight....:-)
this morning at 34th St they were counting riders on a downtown B as I pulled in on my F, I assume they were checking all the express lines
That's because the detail in the data base is so accurate :-(
Mr t
Last Saturday I went to Wilmington Shop at Wilmington, DE to attend their open house festivities. I took a lot of pictures on AEM7ACs.
I scan four of them into my website.
AEM7AC 905 at Wilmington Shop
AEM7AC 920 inside the locomotive shop
Inside the cab of AEM7AC 905 (1)
Inside the cab of AEM7AC 905 (2)
Chaohwa
Howcome these locomotives have no livery on them to speak of?
Peace,
ANDEE
To tell you the truth, this is the newest livery of Amtrak AEM7s, i.e., the Acela Livery. I don't like this livery, either.
You can take a look at my AEM7 page to compare this livery to other liveries.
Chaohwa
Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An Acela trainset running west on track 3 approaching NJT's Hamilton station went under the I-295 overpass as I was driving southbound over it this afternoon at 3:28. It wasn't moving very fast.
This is a must somehow they have eluded me these ""PE looking""
BLUE LINE light rail cars! Maybe somebody out there was lucky & caught
an eyeball on one of these beauties!!I am told they only run during the week & so far i have been unlucky to see one yet !!
However with split service because of a construction site disruption &
the L.A. MTA strike stranding its transit dependent population here it
looks like I will just have to wait !!
The next time I get a chance if I have to wait all day, station to station I will get a digital & regular 35mm shot this beauty from station to station ( at least at 7thMetro & the transit mall station.
I do believe you can see a shot of it on the L.A. MTA website.
I don't have the car numbers, but the PE-painted LRVs were operating on Sunday, 3 September, and I saw them in the DelAmo yard on Wednesday, the 6th. I didn't get a chance to ride them, though, and someone at the ERA convention told me the inside was standard LAMTA.
They did a beautiful job in painting them. The week before, when I was in San Francisco, the Market Street PCC in PE livery seemed to be operating every day and evening. It's kind of odd to see two examples of "what if the PE had survived" within a week--if there were single-ended PCCs for some PE lines and LRVs today.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
(First posting in quite a while)
Go to my web site, take the express train to the Transfer Point, then take the Flushing Line to the new voting booths at the Main Street stop. I won't give you the questions here, though.
Join the mailing list!
http://nav.to/rmmarrero
to Express Train
Click on the link that says "Join the Mailing List!" above the map.
BTW, this will be the last post for updates to my site on SubTalk. It'll all be in the newsletter you will get by joining the mailing list.
THANK YOU!!! The only web site announcements should be their inaguration. Other than that, update announcements should be made via e-mail as I am doing.
I was wondering. I am gonna be graduating soon. I wanna know wassup with these TA tests. I keep on asking Motorman who's job is better, LE or Motorman. They all sware that it is Motorman. But here is the thing. I need to know Y!!!!!. I hear that LE is the better job because When Motorman retire, they get Cancer from being underground all the Time. So if any1 can tell me who's job is better and Y, I would greatly appreciate it!!! Not to be all ghetto, but this has gotten out of hand!!!!
LE? I don't speak french.
I have been a motorman for 10 years, and engineer for 10 years with 2000 miles separating each career.
I've never heard that working in the subway causes cancer, but with composition brakeshoes now who knows. I liked the old cast iron.
As an engineer you'd see a lot more daylight, in freight service seemed like more moonlight and sunrises, being outdoors IS nicer.
Engineer training is more thorough and the promotion exams are far more difficult, plus you are federally licensed since about 1991.
Discipline on he big roads usedto be like the subways, suspensions usually a few days except for serious infractions. With licensing you now lose your ticket for 30 days and go on probation for I think two years. If you get hit with another violation on probation penalties are more severe. NOW REMEMBER VIOLATIONS ARE USUALLY MISTAKES OR OVERSIGHTS BUT ONE CAN'T BE HUMAN. aDMITTEDLY SUCH MISTAKES CAN BE DEADLY. And it happens to the best of us.
I don't know how LIRR, MN, or other suburban railroads run their extra board, days off, etc. In freight service and probably other operations, at least in the west the extra list or board isn't signed up a day in advance. You are on call almost all the time and predictions of when you'll go out areoften many hours off. On some roads that applies to freight crewson "regular" jobs. The whole thing on call. Time off only when replacements are available, furlough when there are too many people. Not much of a life but great money.
M
uaybe suburban operations are more like Transit, I'm sure alot of the jobs are honestly regular.If I had to do it all over, for the lifestyle and if I wanted to live aroun NYC, I'd rather be a motorman. But with future automation who knows, or even semi automation. I have no idea what is involved in running an R142 for example.
AH! LE! Locomotive engineer. Duh.
Depends.
I'd say that Motorman is better than freight LE. Not every job is underground. You can pick a yard switching job and stay away from the steel dust with some seniority. And best of all, you get to see your bed every night unlike most freight LE's who do nothing but work.
But I'd say that LE on LIRR/MNCR/NJT, etc. is way better than TA motorman. You get paid mucho $$$ and you work relatively close to home. And the work environment and employee morale is many times better than the TA morale which could not get any lower. Only bad thing is the difference in the benefits(vacation, sick pay, seniority, etc.). On LIRR, you get only 8 days sick pay a year compared to 12 for TA. And you have to wait 15 years on LIRR to get 4 weeks vacation compared to only 3 years for TA. And seniority? It's bad both ways but much worse on LIRR. To get a regular run with Sat. and Sun. off on the PM shift, you need 8 years in the TA but 14 years in the LIRR. AM's are much worse both ways.
Anyway, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do you want to get hit by the steel dust(T/O) or the diesel fumes(LE)?
Are the tests with the 2,5,and 6 done??
i saw the 2 R142 with passengers on them today and i was just wondering
I think that the R 142A is in it's 19th day of testing, and I don't know about the R142.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
The T.S.S said Day 14 for the R142A but 6 new trains may be in service before Oct 1st.
Do they test every new train for 30 days or just the first one of each new type?
Just the first one of each type.
OK. So they're looking for design flaws rather than sample defects or quality control problems?
There is a whole FLOCK of R142A's just waiting to pour out of Unionport-Yard; I have seen up to as high as #7250.
wayne
Right. When I went home for Labor Day Weekend, there they were sitting there in the yard. The first Bombardier train was also in service and two more were in the maintenance shop at 180th St. They're on their way!
On Oct 1 if everything goes to plan there should be cars 7221-7270 at Westchester Yard and will also go in service.
The problem now is there running out of space at E 180 between the new cars and the other No.5 Train layups. Remember most the No.5 Redbirds do go to Sleep at E 180 all night. The only thing that runs at Night are the R62A OPTO trains.
They've got plenty of layup space at dyre ave. for the redbirds on the #5 line.
It might be the R142 that's on day 19. I remember during the last week in August when the R142 was in service but not the R142A. So the R142 has been in continuous service longer than the R142A, unless something went wrong during the first two weeks in September.
A partial AP article in this morning's (Camden, NJ) Courier-Post (the paper edits wire stories to fit the page) compares 5 mph crash-test damages of cars and SUV's. Two SUV's of 15 tested sustained damage of less than $3000; 13 sustained more. It's rare for a car to sustain $3000 damage in a 5 mph crash. The reason: there are federal standards for cars but not for SUV's.
The SUV's with <$3000 damage: a BMW and a Mercedes.
Dateline did a piece last night on SUVs and the current Firestone situation. Highlights of the piece show:
The first evidence of a problem with ford explorers and Firestone tires was seen in 1989
In 1996,the Clinton administration (through the appropriate agency) was notified by a State Farm Insurance accident investigator that there was a link between Ford Explorers, Firestone ATX Tires and tread seperation accidents.
The Clinton administration did nothing about the report even when it was followed up a year later.
Now Pols. on both sides are jumping onto the bandwagon to blame ford and firestone while they blame each other.
A partial AP article in this morning's (Camden, NJ) Courier-Post (the paper edits wire stories to fit the page) compares 5 mph crash-test damages of cars and SUV's. Two SUV's of 15 tested
sustained damage of less than $3000; 13 sustained more. It's rare for a car to sustain $3000 damage in a 5 mph crash. The reason: there are federal standards for cars but not for SUV's.
The SUV's with <$3000 damage: a BMW and a Mercedes.
It's reasonable to say that most SUV owners are FAR more concerned about safety in real-world multi-car crashes than with the outcomes of these tests. If you bang your SUV into a barrier at 5 mph and it costs several thousand to fix, well, that's hardly a desirable outcome, but that's why we pay for insurance. But if some idiot comes through a red light and T-bones you on the driver's side at 40 mph, and you survive because your SUV's high seating position puts you about the main impact area, you won't be complaining about its performance in 5 mph barrier-crash tests.
A more realistic scenario is that the I*D*I*O*T M*O*R*O*N SUV driver, brimming with the overconfidence that all that vehicle mass gives him disregards the rules of the road and turns a family of 5 in a Honda into hamburger with his road monster. "End road rage, end No Fault"
A more realistic scenario is that the I*D*I*O*T M*O*R*O*N SUV driver, brimming with the overconfidence that all that vehicle mass gives him disregards the rules of the road and turns a family of 5 in a Honda into hamburger with his road monster. "End road rage, end No Fault"
Yikes, the prejudice ...
Do you have any statistics to show that SUV drivers are more likely to be involved in at-fault crashes than are drivers of cars and other vehicles?
As for your scenario, SUV's are well-built but not invulnerable. A collision severe enough to obliterate all four occupants of a Honda surely would be pretty bad for the (overconfident) SUV driver; he or she might well survive, though that's far from certain, but almost surely would be in fairly bad condition.
Do you have any statistics to show that SUV drivers are more likely to be involved in at-fault crashes than are drivers of cars and other vehicles?
Peter, I've seen such statistics, and they do show a higher rate of at-fault accidents with SUVs and light trucks, particularly in inclement weather. I don't know where to find them at the moment, though, so I can't quote the rate differential. Vehicles were rated in about eight or nine categories (SUVs and light trucks were separate); the only category worse than an SUV was the sports car, and that not by much (SUVs had a moderately worse rating than light trucks; all other categories, IIRC, were below the average).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Do you have any statistics to show that SUV drivers are more likely to be involved in at-fault crashes than are drivers
of cars and other vehicles?
Peter, I've seen such statistics, and they do show a higher rate of at-fault accidents with SUVs and light trucks, particularly in
inclement weather.)
From what I've heard the saving grace of the SUVs is that they cost so much that teens/drunks can't afford them. When these start rolling down the used car market, LOOK OUT! They'll be making the NEW SUVs less destructive for other vehicles and the environment by that time, but we'll still have all the old ones on the road in the hands of the worst drivers.
From what I've heard the saving grace of the SUVs is that they cost so much that teens/drunks can't afford them. When these start rolling down the used car market, LOOK OUT! They'll be making the NEW SUVs less destructive for other vehicles and the environment by that time, but we'll still have all the old ones on the road in the hands of the worst drivers.
Could be ... but keep in mind that SUV's, and light trucks in general, maintain their values much better than do automobiles. It's very difficult to find a used SUV for under a few thousand dollars, and then you're looking at a vehicle that's probably close to 15 years old and which probably will have very high maintenance needs.
>>>...we'll still have all the old ones on the road in the hands of the worst drivers<<<
Um, so what are you saying? That people who can't afford new cars are bad drivers?
Additionally, Drunks can afford new cars too y'know. Alcholism is not something that is limited to any demograohic group, it crosses all socio-economic lines.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Um, so what are you saying? That people who can't afford new cars are bad drivers?"
No, he was referring to TEEN drivers, who aren't stupid because they are broke, or indeed broke because they are stupid, but (in popular perception) stupid AND broke because they are teenagers. :)
That's a JOKE, for those who don't get it.
LOL, thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
This happened to my brother a few months ago. He was in a Saturn, which was hit broadside by a Cadallic ETC. He was in the main impact area. He was trapped in the vehicle. He spent 1 night in the hospital for observation and a CAT scan my mother insisted he had (They found nothing. I was not surprised) He lived. So what's your point? Personally, I think that anything more than scratched paint is too much damage in a 5mph collision. One of the videos showed an Isuzu Trooper backing into a steel post. The impact pushed the spare tire (mouted high and sticking out further than the bumper) shattering the rear window.
Oh, and if your Explorer is hit at 40mph+, it's more likely to roll over, and that can do more damage to you. SO much for the advantage of that high seating position.
-Hank
This happened to my brother a few months ago. He was in a Saturn, which was hit broadside by a Cadallic ETC. He was in the main impact area. He was trapped in the vehicle. He spent 1 night in the hospital for observation and a CAT scan my mother insisted he had (They found nothing. I was not surprised) He lived. So what's your point? Personally, I think that anything more than scratched paint is too much damage in a 5mph collision. One of the videos showed an Isuzu Trooper backing into a steel post. The impact pushed the spare tire (mouted high and sticking out further than the bumper) shattering the rear window. Oh, and if your Explorer is hit at 40mph+, it's more likely to roll over, and that can do more damage to you. SO much for the advantage of that high seating position.
I'm glad it worked out for your brother, but one example proves nothing. Side impacts account for a disproportionate number of traffic deaths. In many of these cases, the striking car intrudes deeply into the passenger compartment of the other vehicle, causing a loss of survival space. And it does not take a terribly high speed impact for this to occur - as little as 30 mph can be enough, when you're considering similar vehicles. Side air bags help somewhat, as does a rigid body structure (such as the one on the Saturn in which your brother was riding), but there are limits. Sometimes sitting above the main impact area is the only thing spelling the difference between death and survival. I would be extremely surprised if the higher rollover risk in SUV's comes close to negating this advantage.
Regarding the rear-mounted spare tires, they indeed have been recognized as contributing to excess damage in low-speed impacts, and for that reason many manufacturers have been moving the spares to vehicle undersides. My Rodeo's spare tire is underneath the vehicle. There is a slight tradeoff, as underside-mounted spares can reduce ground clearance and angle of departure, which can be an issue in really rugged off-roading.
(Sometimes sitting above the main impact area is the only thing spelling the difference between death and survival. I would be extremely surprised if the higher rollover risk in SUV's comes close to negating this advantage.)
To the driver. Factor in the fact than when an SUV hits a car from the side, the main impact area is higher on the car, and collectively I think you end up way behind. If everyone gets an SUV to protect themself, then we are back where we started.
Where you stand depends on (to use the phrase literally) where you sit. The side impact panels contributed to my decision to buy an Saturn. If an SUV bumper, backed by a rigid frame, is going to go over the panels, I (or my kids) are toast.
This is a big issue in Brooklyn, with cars parked nearly to the corner, buildings out nearly to the sidewalk, and intersections every block. Unless you get someone just running a stop sign and barrelling through the intersection (not common but it happens) you are talking about a collision at less than 30 miles per hour, especially with brakes applied. But it could stil be bad if the bumper comes through the window.
I weave down the avenues like a drunk, moving away from the direction the one-way side streets are coming from. As pedestrains, I worry about my kids looking at one street but being run over by a car turning the corner from behind them.
Sometimes sitting above the main impact area is the only thing spelling the difference between death and survival. I would be
extremely surprised if the higher rollover risk in SUV's comes close to negating this advantage.
To the driver. Factor in the fact than when an SUV hits a car from the side, the main impact area is higher on the car, and collectively I think you end up way behind. If everyone gets an SUV to protect themself, then we are back where we started.
Where you stand depends on (to use the phrase literally) where you sit. The side impact panels contributed to my decision to buy an Saturn. If an SUV bumper, backed by a rigid frame, is going to go over the panels, I (or my kids) are toast.
This is a big issue in Brooklyn, with cars parked nearly to the corner, buildings out nearly to the sidewalk, and intersections every
block. Unless you get someone just running a stop sign and barrelling through the intersection (not common but it happens) you are talking about a collision at less than 30 miles per hour, especially with brakes applied. But it could stil be bad if the bumper comes through the window.
Bumper heights aren't really the issue. Front bumpers on SUV's and other light trucks actually aren't much higher off the ground than are bumpers on automobiles. SUV's and pickups with aftermarket lift kits are an exception, but you won't see many of them in NYC. While it's undeniable that SUV's do present a greater threat to car occupants in side impact collision, it more because of their greater weight and rigid body structures, than because of greater bumper height per se*. What is probably the biggest difference between light trucks (including SUV's) and automobiles when it comes to bumper heights is that the occupants of the former type sit at much higher levels relative to their own vehicles' bumpers than do automobile occupants. It is this relative difference that provides an extra measure of safety in light trucks, without itself disadvantaging automobile occupants.
* = all the hoopla about SUV's has obscured the fact that in side impacts between any vehicles, including those evenly matched in size, the occupants of the struck vehicle generally come off much worse than the occupants of the striking vehicle.
>>>SUV's and pickups with aftermarket lift kits are an exception, but you won't see many of them in NYC...<<<
You haven't been looking there are PLENTY of these.
Peace,
ANDEE
All local news outlets are reporting another fire on Metro North. This one is reported on track 110 in Grand Central Station. Details as they come in.
First WMATA, now Metro-North. I wonder which system will be the next one to have many fires over a short period of time.
This is about my site NJSTA's Site The source is from Email Address:villanti@peoplepc.comHis request is quote"Put all the communter trains on the track ballst and add overhead centnary wires.
Also add 2 signals, and 1 signal bridge.Add two SEPTA AEM-7 locomotives,2 SEPTA Comet II Cars,2 EL/NJDOT Comet I Cars,2 Penn Central/NJDOT Arrow I MU Cars,12 Amtrak SV2000 Coaches,10 New York City Subway r40 Slant Cars and 8 New York City Subway r110B "New Techinology Train"cars with two New Jersey GG1 Locomotives,2 Erie Lackawanna E8A Diesals and 6 Erie Lackawanna MU cars to the NEC TRAIN GIFs website page." Notice how he got the R40 right but the R110B wrong.
I assume this was e-mailed to you in the confidence that you would NOT share it in a public forum?
If anything is rude, your publishing of his/her e-mail address without his/her permission is.
On the contrary! I have one consistent policy here. If I get any unsolicited private E-mail of an unfriendly sort, I consider it fair game. If it is bourne out of a subtalk thread I reserve the option to:
Ignore it.
Respond to it.
Post it on Subtalk if I feel it's appropriate.
Turn it over to the proper authorities
I think that everyone should understand the differences between what we post here and the implications of private E-mail.
Train Dude: If you are getting unsolicited nasty notes, you have the right to expose whoever the crud is who is doing it. If someone is acting like an ass treat him as such.
The last time, I did just that. Several people on this board received E-mails with strong anti-semetic messages. I turned the matter over to the Suffolk County Bias Unit. They investigated and found the person responsible. The good news is that the E-mail stopped and the person had to hire a lawyer. Unfortunately, the person was never prosecuted due to technical problems.
However, most people here are not that hateful. Occassionally, they lose their head and rather than post their venom, they send it privately. My policy is that if the E-mail is mean spirited and was a direct result of a subtalk post, I reserve the right to post it and expose the author. Of course, friendly E-mail and requests for information are treated appropropriately.
The last time, I did just that. Several people on this board received E-mails with strong anti-semetic messages. I turned the matter over to the Suffolk County Bias Unit. They investigated and found the person responsible. The good news is that the E-mail stopped and the person had to hire a lawyer. Unfortunately, the person was never prosecuted due to technical problems.
However, most people here are not that hateful. Occassionally, they lose their head and rather than post their venom, they send it privately. My policy is that if the E-mail is mean spirited and was a direct result of a subtalk post, I reserve the right to post it and expose the author. Of course, friendly E-mail and requests for information are treated appropriately.
But according to NJSTA, the message was referring to his website and his e-mail was obtained that way. It had nothing to do with Subtalk.
And I don't see how the message was rude either.
I think the rude part here is the failure of the poster to CLOSE HIS HTML!
-Hank
>>> This is about my site NJSTA's Site <<<
And why should we at Sub Talk care about that e-mail?
Tom
Old Tom: We should care because we are a family of sorts---railfans. There is a sort of comaradarie within our group and we don;t need anyone stirring up trouble. Maybe if exposed, some friendly persuasion might make the guilty party understand that there is no room for anyone taking out a personal vendetta against someone else on our site.
>>> we don;t need anyone stirring up trouble. Maybe if exposed, some friendly persuasion might make the guilty party understand that there is no room for anyone taking out a personal vendetta against someone else on our site. <<<
Fred;
What kind of a personal vendetta? This was not even something that was originally posted to Sub Talk. When I read the original post, I could not ascertain what the offending message meant until I linked to the NJSTA site. Then the message seemed like a stupid request without malice which is something that goes with the territory of being a Webmaster.
Tom
You think that's funny/rude. You should see some of the email I get from people who think I/this site is the MTA. I should start posting some of it.
-Dave
You should consider it, I'm sure it would provide hours of amusement for subtalk and make some posters look intelligent.. 8-)
PS---thanks a million for SUBTALK
Peace,
ANDEE
no better yet, post them all on a seperate page - not as Subtalk messages but as a seperate "dumbasses who think this is the MTA" page.
lol
You should. There's plenty of disclaimers on the site that tell people it's in no way related to the MTA. You could make it a seperate page, and just add another disclaimer; you reserve the right to make their feedback public. IIRC, your only privacy policy is that you won't use our email addresses...
-Hank
Think that's bad - I get people who want to do business with the BMT Corporation. At first I joked and told them they were about 60 years too late! Finally I just started ignoring these e-mails.
I was polite to the ones who asked me to search for records of grandparents who worked for the BMT. Actually made a few friends that way even though I couldn't help them. But these requests are getting a bit out of hand now and I created a form letter to respond to them with.
No-one reads the disclaimers!!
www.bmt-lines.com
Send me over that form letter! Questions about former employees is among the most of the frequent questions. At least 2 a week. Some of them have even *tried* asking the MTA; getting nowhere, they figure, well try some random hobbyist web site maybe they have the records??
-Dave
It just dawned on me that the pioneering R1, 381, one of the first tested on the Sea Beach, depicted here in 1931, survived as one of the museum fleet, with a photo on nycsubway.org c.1970(?) on the QB, one track and four decades removed from the first picture.
Does anyone know the current location, condition and status of 381? That Triplex inspired veteran feels like a BMT veteran to me.
With the fare increase on the MBTA beginning this Monday, will there be new tokens, or can we stock up at the old price this weekend? Also, if the tokens are not changing, is the MBTA going to make it hard to stock up? (i.e. limiting the # of ten-packs that can be purchased) -Nick
Yup, same tokens. I didn't see anyone hoarding this morning; maybe they're oblivous, or just don't care about $0.15.
I'll be the collectors (Boston's name for Station Agents) are happy -- no more fumbling with coins!
They did retire the tokens when the fare went from 20˘ to 25˘ back in the late sixties. When the fare went to 50˘ the tokens came back and have stayed through more recent fare increases. Part of the reason is that to change to a new token or coin means new coin slots and adjustments to the validation system in every turnstyle, which costs money! It is cheaper to let people buy tokens in advance and not worry about hoarding. The MBTA doesn't advertise bulk sales anyway - most regulars buy passes, which are discounted to begin with, and don't go up until November.
How much is the fare going to be?
$1 for subways, $0.75 for buses.
Monthly passes go up about 25%.
See the MBTA Web site for details.
Overheard on the PA of a northbound 1:
"Watch the closing doors, please...
C'mon folks, there's a train directly
behind us.. please don't hold the doors..
we promise you, we are NOT the last train
to ever leave this station.. let the doors close."
I overheard something similiar a few weeks ago. The C/R said something to the effect 'This is the last train that will be going to Woodlawn. Please hold the doors for other passengers'.
Have a nice day !!! Hope you dry out !!!!
There's a C/R on the R who yells at a door holder over the PA if he ends up on the train.
There's also one on the 7 who threatens to take the train out of service.
Today at 50th/6th there was a 10 minute wait for the F. The doorway I was at was so crowded not even I could fit (I didn't try). I was standing right in front of the door (no one in their right mind would try to get on anyway), and this large fat woman shoves me out of the way and says "move," and proceeds to squeeze herself onto the train. Everyone (platform and on train, plus conductor) cursed and yelled at her, but she squeezed on anyway (she delayed the train another 45 seconds). The train leaves, and immediately behind there's another one. I get a seat. At Roosevelt, I see her while waiting for the local, and she recognizes me. I say "See, you rushed, pissed off thousands of people, and stood squished against a dozen passengers, while I waited, sat, and pissed off no one, yet we are both here, right now. Was it worth it?"
>>>...I see her while waiting for the local, and she recognizes me. I say "See, you rushed, pissed off thousands of people, and stood squished against a dozen passengers, while I waited, sat, and pissed off no one, yet we are both here, right now. Was it worth it?" <<<
It more than likely fell on deaf ears. You should have saved your breath.
Peace,
ANDEE
There was a time back before the M was known as the M that three car trains were the norm on the the line. They were three car sets of Standards of the "B" type. "A" & "BX" type were hardly ever used on the "M". For a short period of time during rush hour they would be doubled up into six-car trains. This was back when the terminals were Metropolitan Ave and Chambers Street. It was known as the Myrtle-Chambers train. Most people (myself included) did not even know that it was the #10. We found that out when the R-16's first appeared.
I recall the line from the late 50s, when it ran rush hours only (the El to Bridge-Jay ran 24 hrs a day). In those days, the usual equipment was the Multi-Section cars, which got transferred to the route after the outer part of the Fulton St. El got connected to the IND, and the 14th St-Fulton St service ended.
Even though the Myrtle-Chambers line was supposed to be #10, many of the MS cars displayed #13 (which was the number for the Fulton St line). Perhaps the signs were stuck and they couldn't change them when they moved them to this line? Anyone have any info. on this?
The Multi-Section cars made their last runs in early 1961. They were displaced by standards freed up from the Southern division by the arrival of R27s.
-- Ed Sachs
Do you mean that the Multi's replaced the Standard's, and then the Standard's replaced the Multi's? The Multi's must not have been there very long for they were using Standard's and R-16's when I left in 1957.
Do you mean that the Multi's replaced the Standard's, and then the Standard's replaced the Multi's? The Multi's must not have been there very long for they were using Standard's and R-16's when I left in 1957.
It was around 1956 or 57 that the Multi's went to the Myrtle-Chambers in exchange for Standards to 14th St. I think the rationale at the time was that the Multi's were getting kind of finicky and they wanted them assigned to a rush-hours only route to minimize usage and maximize time to get them patched up between runs. By summer of 56, the 14th St-Fulton St line was no more, so they were free to go to another line.
-- Ed Sachs
You hit the nail right on the head. The sign mechanisms on the multis tended to malfunction in their later years. Consequently, they frequently had incorrect markings. There are such photos in Subway Cars of the BMT, some of which show the multis with a blank route indication and an incorrect destination sign. The multis didn't have cloth roller curtains; instead, they had a series of placards connected to a chain mechanism, all of which changed simultaneously with the flick of a switch.
Apparently, the practice of running 3-car trains continued with the arrival of the R-16s. There is a photo in the R-16 section of a 3-car #10 train in 1955 or 1956.
>>>, ...they had a series of placards connected to a chain mechanism, all of which changed simultaneously with the flick of a switch.
Thank you for that info, I never knew that! (especially the part abpout he chain/placard mechanism)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I just looked up that photo. I'm curious that a 3 car train was on that route since it was a rush hour only line. In fact, this month in Bill's calendar, the R16 photo was from 1964, thought they only ran standards there by then. Everything looks the same today in the calendar photo except the R16! And I don't see the logic of running 3 cars even if it were on the "shoulder" for perhaps one trip.
Perhaps this was done during the time the 390+ Standards were being rebuilt. The eastern division might have been short some standards.
They are meeting here in Pasadena to discuss the MTA STRIKE & I do not think there will be any trains & buses for those here who do not own a wreck!! (car pickup truck or van) Many,Most, in fact all, will LOSE thier jobs employment & have to go on UIB & welfare !!
I am sure glad i put my camcorder inside the BLUE LINEs motormans cab
this week, not being sure how long this strike will last,
( I am sure too long ) Why cant they just pay the transit employees a decent wage & settle this thing? TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS & not strand all of the vunerable of all the hardest working poorest paid etc...
""Transit dependent MTA riders here"" Gets on my last nerve !!
>>> Why cant they just pay the transit employees a decent wage & settle this thing? <<<
Salaam;
What do you consider a decent wage? MTA says the average pay for operators and mechanics is now $50k per year.
Tom
I do agree with you on one thing compaired to FOOTHILL TRANSIT
they are paid better! A transit operators job aint easy tom!!
& the cost of living on the west coast aint cheap either !!!
But its the minimum wage slave workers who will suffer from the MTA transit strike the most & they have my 100% support !!!
TOM,
In Salaam's post, he indicated that MTA workers are working under slavery conditions for 'minimum wage'. Exactly how many people in the LA MTA work for minimum wage?
Steve
Dude, you need to re-read the message. Oh, it also requires that you read one of his other disjointed posts. He's not saying that LAMTA workers are doing slave work for minimum wage, but that the transit USERS who are doing slave work for minimum wage will be the ones who suffer in case of a strike. And we have to admit he's right about that one.
-Hank
Hank, You are absolutely correct, I think. I re-read the message and it looks like you are most likely correct. Seems that I'm going to either give up reading his posts altogether or it's back to john Jay College for a course in Salaameese 101.
well mr traindudees-101 the L.A. mta "STRIKE" is off for only 1..
( one ) more day !! Hows your college buddy HANK at jay college!!
also how is your football/basketball teams doing at Jay College ?? cant wait for the info !!!
Hank, I did not know you went to John jay College? Once again, THE VILLAGE IDIOT HAS SPOKEN
I never went to John Jay. I went to Staten Island (Richmond College).
And I dropped out.
-Hank
It was not my contention that you had gone to John Jay. That came from our west coast looneytune. However, I also went to Richmond college, I believe 1971-1973. Economics major/minor in secondary education
whats a disjointed post mr spell check !!?? i can hardly wait for the answer to this one !!
Sallam, if I were you I'd keep your mouth shut here, since I defended you against an unjust accusation.
By disjointed, I mean that one must read your post multiple times to gain any kind of understanding from it. This is because you do not use proper punctuation or anything resembling sentences. The spelling I've forgiven.
-Hank
I will tell you what this concentrated small internet macintosh touch keyboard type i a real nerve headache inducer !!
I am used to the old fashoned reusable ribbon manual typewritter type of machines!! ( with no electrical connections whatsoever remember? )
some of this computer stuff is too hard to read word processing etc... however i am getting better !
I have my strengths and not so !!What are your weaknesses sir ??
I bet there a lot of things you cant do well right hank ??
Yes, I admit there are several things I'm not good at. But none of them are 'everyday skills'.
-Hank
(posted from a public internet terminal in the Palisades Center Mall)
>>> In Salaam's post, he indicated that MTA workers are working under slavery conditions for 'minimum wage' <<<
Steve;
I did not read the post that way. He called for the MTA to give everyone a decent wage, and I questioned what that was since the workers are now receiving an average of $50K a year. When he referred to minimum paid workers, he was referring to those who are dependant on the busses to get to work.
Salaam seems to have a tendency to believe only the MTA and not the union needs to shift its position to prevent a strike.
Tom
thats setting hank & the train dude straight & exact !! thanks old tom!!
>>> thats setting hank & the train dude straight <<<
A little more care in the composition of your posts would reduce the necessity of interpreting them.
Tom
That's stting Salaam straight,Tom
sitting who straight dude ??
wrong !! i said it is a tough hard job to do !! the rest of the janitors etc have rough way to go too!!
please quote me right !!
In honor of the possible labor action in LA I am now reciting one of the greatest taglines in the history of Subtalk; A strike is coming, Be Afraid, Be VERY Afraid
"Why cant they just pay the transit employees a decent wage & settle this thing? TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS & not strand all of the vunerable of all the hardest working poorest paid etc... "
Hey, it's YOUR LA County government, not some big profit-making company; why don't you yourself give them more taxes to pay the transit workers? Why don't you throw in an extra 50 cents every time you ride the bus there?
Why can't the unions follow the law and not strike???? Why are you so predictable in blaming everyone but the union leaders who are calling for the strike... Maybe they don't care about the poorest paid at all, but just want more union dues and to feel the power...
I am waiting for the day when you are not whining about something and writing something pleasant for a change.
Starting tomorow all L.A. mta rail & bus riders are 100% stranded...
( except DASH OCD orange county, long beach transit montabello transit & all local non mta except for METROLINK !! ( how about that )...
santa monica transit torrance transit free shuttle services, pasadena el montie alhambra glendale etc. foothill transit ( non union )..!!
But if you are not on that ""lucky hit list"" you are ROAD KILL!!
Strike averted here are details from LA times,
STRIKE AVERTED FOR 24 HOURS
Peace,
ANDEE
The article mentions that the postponement of the strike was announced at 12:10 A.M. That was one minute after a post to Bus Talk at 12:09 A.M. Obviously this website is the place to get the news first.
Tom
I think if you look back historically, one reason people wanted their own cars was so they wouldn't be at the mercy of the greedy monopoly transit operators. Today, the transit operators are gone, but we have the transit unions in their place.
COOK THOSE BOOKS
Peace,
ANDEE
Only HANK can perform Hanky-Panky!
-Hank
LOL 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That's worth half a rim shot.:-)
The new motto at the MTA: if you can't play by the rules, change the rules :)
--Mark
I prefer Amtrak's new motto: "You can't rush quality."
My favorite MTA motto is...
FOWARD. . . INTO THE PAST 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it's more like, "Screw the #&$%@!! customers! What did they expect for their Metrocard - a fast ride?"
MTA-taking the rapid out of rapid transit
You can say that again.
The real pity is that neither measure is sufficiently strict. The existing criteria states that the scheduled interval +/- 50% is considered on time. The new criteria is that the scheduled interval + 3 minutes is considered on time. The fact that not every train is running at 100% according to this criteria is a severe indictment against NYCT performance.
Suppose they still ran Lex Ave Expresses at 36 tph (before WWI). The interval should be 100 seconds. But a 150 second interval or 24 tph would still be "100% on time". Of course, with the new criteria, 280 second intervals or 13 tph would still be "100% on time" for 36 tph operation.
There are standard statistical techniques for measuring such performance. The problem in applying them is that the TA refuses to publish detailed schedules despite a legal requirement. Of course, if such schedules were availble, anyone could accurately measure TA on time performance.
[Suppose they still ran Lex Ave Expresses at 36 tph (before WWI). The interval should be 100 seconds. But a 150 second interval
or 24 tph would still be "100% on time".]
So when the 36th train arrives 30 minutes into the next hour, it will be considered on time?
METRO NORTH/GCT FIRE
Peace,
ANDEE
at least the working poor wont have to suffer not having any way to get to work !! I tell you though it still looks bad here !!
Just thought I'd mention a tid-bit I heard on WINS News (I believe yesterday morning) where a Queens Councilman is pushing for a new city parking regulation that will make it illegal for Vans, trucks and perhaps SUVs to be parked within 50 feet of intersections.
I'm all for this because I can tell you the many horror stories of collisions -- and near collisions -- that have occurred at an intersection where the driver stopped at a corner with will not have the visual clearance to see around large vehicles.
I hope this proposition gets enacted.
Doug aka BMTman
I wish they would add mini-vans to the list. To me an SUV is not nearly as view-inhibiting as a mini-van. But I know that's not the official evil-auto of the '00s, so it will never happen.
Perhaps our local legislators could be a bit more crative. Just as we do with motorcycles, busses, trucks and even liveries, we need a seperate license and seperate test to insure that if you drive an SUV, you have the minimal skill required to safely navigate one. On the otherhand, the way most of the current owners drive on the parkways, a psychological profile wouldn't hurt either.
The legislation in question proposes a 15 (not 50) foot restricted zone at intersections. The law will most likely have to be written to restrict vehicles by their height, not by whether they are an 'SUV' or a 'van'.
From the SI Advance-
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/0914parking1.html
Yesterday's edition of USA Today had an article in the Money Section about a passenger record for Amtrak. Mentions their Service Guarantee and that the most registered complaints are about delays, same as the airlines.
As soon as someone invents a delay-free form of transportation, look out, cause that seems to be the ticket with the riding public.
Hello, again. I discovered that for the (previous and) next few weekends, there will be a shuttle train between Chambers and Canal Sts. My question: where does this train originate? Is it the 12:53 out of Broad St. w/ a Canal St. sign, whereby the customers have to transfer to a "waiting" train? Does this "waiting" train at Canal get any recovery time? What about on Mon. morn? What train will leave Chambers at about 4:55 am bound for Jam. Center?
Basically, the question I'm asking is this: What are the heights of the cars on the subway systems outside of New York?
Any subway system that is located on
http://www.nycsubway.org/world.html
I've been looking at pictures from Washington and Atlanta and they appear to have a lower ceiling than the cars in New York.
Hi everyone.
A while back, I posted a message about my job (as a light-rail driver on a line near Stockholm, Sweden). I was wondering what it was like to work on the NYC subway: what the shifts and schedules are like, and so on.
I just now (a few minutes ago!) created a list on eGroups.com called
rail-transit-workers. Anybody who works in any aspect of rail transit, anywhere, is welcome to join.
I know there are quite a few NYCT motormen and conductors among you SubTalkers, so I thought you might be interested. Join up and let's get some discussion going!
Best regards,
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (smĺstan i storstan), Sweden
An article about cell phone abuse on the LIRR:
http://www.nytoday.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=cg/Neighborhoods/Areas/LongIsland.htm&categoryid=&bfromind=11&eeid=3031470&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=2.10
I remember a particularly loud passanger talking on his cellphone all the way from the time we left the tunnel until like Valley Stream. When he stopped, there was applause all over the train.
:)Andrew
YAK YAK YAK
Peace,
ANDEE
"YAK YAK YAK"
I'm going to YAAAAK into my wastebasket if I have to read another cell-phone thread.
Anyone who complains about cellphones in the U.S. hasn't been to Europe or Israel! It seems half of the people in Italy and Finland have wireless phones permanently grafted to their ears. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) And Israel is the originator of the idea of making cellphones so cheap they can be issued by parents to their children (the Mango, as in Man Go, not the fruit). Here in the US, we ban kids from having phones at school as a security measure. Israel, probably the most security-conscious society in the world, issues kids cell phones as a security measure.
The article says:
"There was this attorney on the train shouting on a cell phone and the man next to him asked him to speak lower," Mr. Brucker said. "The attorney refused, so the guy took out one of those little tape recorders and said, 'There's the end of your attorney-client privilege.' The attorney got off the phone."
Was that you, John? :-)
As it says in the article, the problem isn't the technology, it's the occasional jerk who abuses it. Most people talk quietly into their cellphones. When I encounter a loudmouth, I escape to another car; I escape gum crackers, nail clippers, and screaming babies the same way.
Personally I don't want a cellphone, but then, I have no dependents. Still, I think of a cellphone as an enslaving, rather than a liberating, device. While you're away from the phone, you're away from its ringing...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> I think of a cellphone as an enslaving, rather than a liberating, device <<<
Kevin;
That used to be said about beepers also before cellphones became common. I never felt that either the beeper or cellphone was enslaving as long as I can decide whether I want to answer a page, or turn my cellphone off. In either case the failure to respond can be explained as "a poor reception area."
Tom
In either case the failure to respond can be explained as "a poor reception area."
Poor Reception ares is Defined as: Where ever I am standing right now.
Still, I think of a cellphone as an enslaving, rather than a liberating, device.
It's a sword that cuts both ways. Back in the summer of '98 I headed a project performing major system upgrades that affected many millions of long distance telephone connections. I'm on call 24x7 anyway but this set of upgrades made it especially imperative that I could be reached anywhere, at any time, that I could reach anyone else immediately, and that I could participate in conference calls on a moment's notice. Without the phone I would effectively have been confined to my home and my office. With it, I was even able to participate in a tour of the Dyre Avenue line, which fortunately fit right between scheduled calls - I spent an hour on one right after the end of the tour, sitting on the platform at 180th Street. And fortunately, the phone didn't ring during the tour, but if it had I could have taken the call and done my job.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Make a cell-phone free car. If you don't want to deal with cell phones, go here.
Weren't the LIRR & MNRR thinking of doing just that - a cellphone-free car?
09/17/2000
[Weren't the LIRR & MNRR thinking of doing just that - a cellphone-free car?]
Won't work. There will be the occasional rider who will sit down in that car and his or her cell phone will go off. Then the excuses of why that person was in the the phone free car, poor heat/AC in the other cars or I didn't feel like it. What are you going to do, throw me off the train ?
Perhaps some sort of jamming signal broadcasted in each car preventing calls from being recieved or sent. Just like it was mentioned here, it's the notorious abusers who spoil it for everybody.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, see my prior post on this subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
re cell phone free cars
Won't work. There will be the occasional rider who will sit down in that car and his or her cell phone will go off. Then the excuses of why that person was in the the phone free car, poor heat/AC in the other cars or I didn't feel like it. What are you going to do, throw me off the train ?
If the conductors wanted to be really tough about things, yes they could throw riders off the train for violating the rule. I suppose if word spread about this policy, people would get the point. Hopefully, the disapproving stares and/or comments from other riders would be enough to stop most violators.
>>> Won't work. There will be the occasional rider who will sit down in that car and his or her cell phone will go off. ... What are you going to do, throw me off the train ? <<<
What happens to people who decide they want to light up and smoke a cigar?
Tom
Once again, I'll make my pitch for a dark and quiet car.
Set up one car on the train where loud talking, or any form of loud noise (testing your beeper, using a loud radio, bringing small children), is prohibited. The darkness would help the viewing of night scenery and allow people to rest better. Charge a $1 surcharge, and once every window seat is filled on off-peak trains, discontinue admittance. On peak trains with SRO, the cut off is when all seats are filled. Violators would be removed from the car immediately, the repeat offenders would have a "I can't shut up" stamp on their Mail 'n' Ride ticket or monthly pass which would indicate that they are banned from the car for the rest of the month.
I think it should be the other way around - make most of the cars cell-phone free except for one or two "make all the noise you want" cars.
I feel it's wrong to discriminate against cell phone users as opposed to other noise sources, use Henry R-32's idea.
How do you enforce a cellphone free car? Search all bags at the doors? You couldn't keep a rush hour schedule that way...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> How do you enforce a cellphone free car <<<
Kevin;
There are two ways:
1. Give tickets for violations similar to smoking in a no smoking car. (BTW does the LIRR still have smoking cars?); or
2. Set up some kind of electronic jamming of cellphone signals in cellphone free cars.
Tom
"(BTW does the LIRR still have smoking cars?)" Not a Chance!
There is electronic jaming that can be used, the Japanese put it in some of their buildings. It may also be found in some hospitals and other places where it may conflict with other electronic equipment.
Elias
Intentional electronic jamming of telecommunications signals is a violation of Federal law. Equipment may be passively protected from receiving signals by shielding, that's all. Hospitals are notorious for attempting to ban cellphones, but this is because they receive revenue from companies that supply telephone service at exorbitant rates to patients, not because of telephone-induced interference with other equipment. The airlines also use the interference claim to ban the usage of cellphones and other electronic equipment on airplanes; while the interference claim is bogus, much of the existing cellphone infrastructure cannot handle cell calls that hit more than three or four towers at the same time, and calls made from airplanes are likely to hit ten times that many when flying over an urban area, so cellphone usage from aircraft is currently impractical at best.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Intentional electronic jamming of telecommunications signals is a violation of Federal law.
Ahhh.... The article I read was referring to a Japanese building.
Cell phones are permitted is some parts of the hospital but not others. Restricted areas include the ER, the OR, ICU and telemetry units where it is said that there is unacceptable interference with heart monitors and such.
Elias
Wouldn't the signal doing the jamming cause the same interference problem?
I believe that it would, since it would have to be at least 50% of nominal maximum transmit strength (required receipt strength is less) to effectively block calls.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You get a similar occurrence on express busses.
Here is one such example. A week ago, I took an Express into the city during the night time, and there was this one man who must have called at least 10 people during the ride into the city. Now, for anyone who rides the bus from the Bronx into Manhattan, you'll know that ride can take up to half an hour. Ten people in 30 min is not bad, but the point is that the guy was sitting in the middle of the bus and can be heard all over the bus. He appeared to be an attorney and was discussing the client's cases over the phone. You heard of all his (and the other party's business). Not a wise move. And let's not even get into the fact that there ARE ways to intercept cellular phone calls.
I have a phone too, but I limit my calling time.
My favorite story is of a professor I know who was so aggravated by the loud, inane conversation his neighbor on an MTA bus was carrying on that, when his neighbor said "goodbye" to her friend, leaned over and shouted into the cellphone, "and goodbye from me too!"
That reminds me of another story - an urban legend, perhaps.
Back in the early 80's a kid got on a city bus with his radio playing music at full blast.
The kid looked menacing so no one says anything. Then the guy sitting next to the kid asks him how much the radio costed. The kid tells him the price. The guy pulls out the same amount and asks if he can but it off of him. The kid takes the money and the guy takes the radio. He then opens the window of the bus and throws the radio out of the window while the radio is still blasting away.
Having grown up in the 1970s, when asked what would be likely to cause the next recession, I said running out of energy. But I said that in 1998, just before the Asian Flu recession drove the price of oil down to $10 per barrel. But here we are.
Even though energy isn't THAT expensive yet adjusted for inflation, it is starting to reach a level that hurts, and doesn't seem to be coming down. My view is the certain parts of the economy can't take much more.
The combination of higher heating, gasoline and electricity costs could take about $500 out of my hide over the cost of the year. But my family is about as energy efficient as you can get. A family with two large cars, a large detached house, air conditioning, etc. could lose $1,000 to $1,500. Many such Americans are up to their eyeballs in debt. If they are forced cut spending on other things to pay for energy, whatever they cut spending on is going into recession, with job losses.
Then there are the businesses. Unless they can raise prices (difficult if people are cutting back on spending) then their profits will fall. This in turn will reduce stock prices. Less spending, less profit, lower stock prices equals a slowdown or recession.
Now in theory, the money and jobs won't disappear, they'll just move to the energy industry from something else. But I don't thing the energy industry can grow fast enough to offset the decline elsewhere. It will take a couple of years for investment to translate into more energy industry jobs and greater supply. Some of that energy spending could flow out of the country. Then again, one result might be a decline in manufactured imports. Of course, the FED could juice the money supply, but that would just mean inflation would rise and everyone else would end up behind by the same amount.
Now what does this has to do with the subway? In the 1989 to 1993 recession, the Northeast in general and New York City in particular suffered much worse than the national average. Many commentors asserted that this had to do with the nature of the City and region, not with the nature of that particular recession. I disagreed.
If we do have an energy-generated recession, it should be BETTER in NYC than elsewhere. Thanks to the subway, etc., energy is a lower portion of our household budget (yes energy costs are high but that is due to taxes, wages, etc. not the cost of the fuel itself, which we use less of). And, energy is a lower share of sales and profits in information-based industries than in manufacturing.
A bad year in an absolute sense may turn out to be a good time in a relative sense. Of course, it will be even better in Texas.
You made some interesting observations. I tend to be less concerned about the possibility of an energy-caused recession, if only because most people can cut their energy use substantially without much effect on their lifestyles. Gasoline is the biggest energy expenditure for most people, and the point to keep in mind is that many people are very wasteful when it comes to gasoline use. No, I'm not referring to the popularity of SUV's rather than econoboxes - I don't plan to touch thatissue with a ten foot pole - but rather the unnecessary driving that most people do. I believe that most people could cut back their driving by at least 10% just by planning their trips a little more carefully. And it goes without saying that increased transit use would help.
The 1973-74 oil shock really was a shock because the postwar US economy was used to very cheap petroleum products. Autos and home appliances are much more efficient today than they were back then. Even the vehicle liberals love to hate - the SUV, is more efficient than the average passenger sedan of the 70s and early 80s.
But we in NYC might be faced with double energy inflation. Firstly, the lack of foresight in electric utility regulation combined with intense community opposition to constructing even clean burning generating plants will give us at best a megawatt shortage and at worst brownouts and balckouts. Secondly, if you thought your electric bill this summer was high, it was. But just wait till the limited supply of electricity combined with higher generating costs due to increasing fuel prices hits by next summer.
Even information based industries are going to gasp at high electric bills, all those computers and servers use an large aggregate amout of power, and can't just be shut off at 5:00pm in most cases. I see NYC doing slightly worse than the rest of the economy in an energy-related recession. But that's just an educated guess because so much has changed since the last recession. The US economy is so intertwined that our slight advantage of energy efficient transportation won't immunize us from an economic turndown.
The bigger question is do we open up federal lands and offshore locations to oil exploration or do we keep on begging OPEC and 3rd world countries like Nigeria and Venezuela to please be nice and send us cheaper oil.
(The bigger question is do we open up federal lands and offshore locations to oil exploration or do we keep on begging OPEC and 3rd world countries like Nigeria and Venezuela to please be nice and send us cheaper oil.)
I'd rather re-open the Fresh Kills Landfill rather than keep on begging Virginia and Ohio to please be nice and give us cheaper landfill prices.
Just kidding.
Remember, LOTS of producing wells in the U.S. got shut down by the low oil prices of the last few years. I have a friend who is a petroleum engineer, and he's been barely staying employed for half a decade. So federal lands are hardly the real issue.
The electricity crisis is nationwide. In fact, de-regulation nationalized it. We had a cool summer, but de-regulation allowed our producers to ship the power out to other places that were short.
Indeed. The Williston basin area of Eastern Montana and Western North Dakota had a spendthrift economy based on the energy boom in the 70's. In the early 80's they pulled the plug and all these towns took a beating when the oil patch closed; housing prices tumbled, jobs were few, people moved out.
Outside of the affected area nobody cared.
The Williston basin area of Eastern Montana and Western North Dakota had a spendthrift economy based on the energy boom in the 70's. In the early 80's they pulled the plug and all these towns took a beating when the oil patch closed; housing prices tumbled, jobs were few, people moved out. Outside of the affected area nobody cared.
Much the same happened in the Permian Basin region of Texas, centered on Midland and Odessa. If there's a moral in these stories, it's that a regional economy can't truly be healthy if it's a one-trick pony. At least some level of diversity is vital.
(The Williston basin area of Eastern Montana and Western North Dakota had a spendthrift economy based on the energy boom in the 70's. In the early 80's they pulled the plug and all these towns took a beating when the oil patch closed; housing prices tumbled, jobs were few, people moved out. Outside of the affected area nobody cared)
(Much the same happened in the Permian Basin region of Texas, centered on Midland and Odessa. If there's a moral in these stories, it's that a regional economy can't truly be healthy if it's a one-trick pony. At least some level of diversity is vital.)
What is amazing is that in 1977, when my family was moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, people there didn't think they were lucky. They thought they were booming because they were a bunch of God-fearing, right-living, hard working Christians whereas the Northeast was declining because it was full of lazy, welfare cheating, heathens.
While the oil areas were taking a beating, I was living back in New York during the 1980s. New Yorkers didn't think they were booming because they were lucky. They were booming, in the words of Ed Koch, because they walk faster, talk faster, and think faster, and have intellectual capital, whereas people in the Southwest were anti-intellectual redneck boobs.
Of course, back in the 1980s, Japan was eating America's economic lunch. It wasn't because they were lucky. It was because they were hard saving, hard working, loyal and disciplined people whereas Americans were individualistic, selfish, and shortsighted.
How different when Americans crowed, during the Asian Flu economic downturn, that they were up because they were flexible and dynamic whereas Asia was down because it is stultified and rigid.
Has anyone learned anything from this? Not New York State politicians who are borrowing as if the boom will go on forever.
>>> Has anyone learned anything from this? Not New York State politicians who are borrowing as if the boom will go on forever. <<<
And this surprises you?
Tom
I guess your post brought something else to my mind about booms. In describing the lazy, etc etc boobs in NYC...I failed before to bring it up that too many of the energy boomers, I'm not saying all of them, brought a huge increase in drug use and heavy drinking to areas where they already had enough problems. I lived in Glendive, MT and worked out of Sidney, MT sometimes during the boom and yes, there was a lot of money around but the scene wasn't the prettiest. And don't think "the hand that rocks the cradle" was any better than the males.
It's a pity some people cannot handle prosperity; not much different from the politicians. When the bubble bursts the reponsible hold the bag, in or out of government.
What is amazing is that in 1977, when my family was moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, people there didn't think they were lucky. They thought they were booming because they were a bunch of God-fearing, right-living, hard working Christians whereas the Northeast was declining because it was full of lazy, welfare cheating, heathens.
Let me caution against dismissing regional stereotypes too quickly. I have heard, more than once and from different sources, that by and large the people from Upper Midwest and Plains states really are harder-working and more productive than people from other parts of the country. These states would include Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, the Dakotas, and nearby areas of adjoining states. For whatever reason or reasons, there's just more of a work ethic in these places than elsewhere. And students from these places often lead the nation in standardized-test scores.
On the flip side, there's of course no doubt that NYC has more than its share of lazy, good-for-nothing "conforming nonconformists." Yes, I know that per-employee productivity is well above the national average, but that's attributable to the industry mix as well as to the disturbing fact that many of the most unmotivated types are living off the taxpayers' largess rather than dragging down the productivity figures as they'd be doing in other parts of the country.
Wes switched from heating with gas to coal. That saves us about $200 a day in heating bills. Of course, the coal mine is just 40 miles down the road so that helps too. Wind power is a coming thing. The sisters down the road have two big wind turbines providing about 50% of their electrical needs.
Maybe you can harvest some hot air from the senate race.
Elias
Tall buildings could install turbines at the tops of their elevator shafts. As the elevators moved up and down the air flow would power the turbines.
You don't get something for nothing. It would require more energy to move the elevators if they had to turn turbines.
>>> As the elevators moved up and down the air flow would power the turbines. <<<
Of course the back pressure of using the air to turn turbines would require more electricity to operate the elevators, probably more than would be generated by the turbines. There is no free lunch.
Better would be to have the elevators while descending use the dynamic braking principle to generate some of the electricity used in raising them.
Tom
I believe descending elevators are counter-weighted so the motor moves the cable, rather than lifting the lift and then letting it down.
>>> the motor moves the cable, rather than lifting the lift and then letting it down. <<<
I knew there was a reason no one ever consulted me on elevator design and operation. :-)
Tom
We declare war again. Worked in 1991! BTW Iran is just opening up again. Maybe Carter's mistake can finally be put to rest. Ayatola Assahola!
Can conductors be written up for deliberately announcing false information?
Several conductors on the F announce the Forest Hills station as 71st Street, even though they know it's 71st AVENUE, not Street. Even when they run local and announce 75th Avenue and 67th Avenue, the stop in between somehow becomes 71st Street.
What's up with that?
Maybe they should drop the number and just call it "Continental Avenue". They need only to look at the wall tile to see that it is AVE not ST.
wayne
Nah, it might throw them off enough so they end up pointing to the wall and - whoooops - opening up on the wrong side.:-)
Probably some new conductor who got it confused with 71st St. on the B even though the 2 stations look nothing alike. And one even has fresh air! They'll realise their mistake when they have to report to there for a G or R job. As for writing somebody up for giving false information, I think you are being a little too harsh in this instance unless your real name is Ralph Agillary (spelling error),the TA head of Labor Relations,who gives out suspension days like the dolphin trainer at the NY Aquarium gives out fish after they do a trick!
I have seen people ride the R142's on the 2 line which brings some good news to the people who ride on the 2 train
They Are IN SERVICE AS I SPEAK!!!
as for the 6 line....well, they are still being tested.
see, a problem occured on the 6 line, not the 2, making the 2 pass the test with flying colors
so...keep your fingers crossed for the 6 line
and as for the 5 line...i dont really know.....
Where have you been? They are REVENUE TESTS!!! This means that they are run in revenue service with passengers. Both the R142 and R142A are running with passengers on the 2 and 6 in REVENUE TESTING.
I also think that the R142A on the 6 line, has completed more successful days without an official breakdown than the R142 on the 2 has!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSITinfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Currently the 142 is at 18 or 19, while the 142A is at 13 or 14.
But the R142 has had more serious problems than the R142A and started later for that reason.
oh.......Like homer from the simpsons
DOH!!!!
What is this-everyone going to Chicago lately???? Anyhow, here are my observations, starting with my Amtrak trip....After getting myself down to the Apple and Penn Station, I checked my big bag, and stashed my carry ons for a buck and a half. I wandered over to Fifth to have lunch at the White Castle across from the ESB. Aftr killing time in the Herald sq area, I went back to penn and found a couple of mags to read {ACTUALLY found a copy of RAILFAN at the Hudson News in Penn Station....whod have thunk it?? [Ironically its the issue with the article about the new 'improved' Amtrak service!]} About 45 minutes before train time I parked myself in front of the [working!] new train board, watching it work {pretty nice, I must admit}, trying to listen for #49...knowing that all upstate trains leave from either 7 or 8, as those are the only tracks that connect into the WS Connector. When my train was announced, and was able to grab a nice seat in the middle of the first coach back from the lounge car. It seems all the coaches [including mine] were re-builds, with AC outlets at every seat location [if I had only known...]. The diner and lounger were re-builds, to, the lounge having the 'smokers'club' section in it [MAYBE one of the BEST things Amtrak EVER did...], and the diner having the five stools and counter. Anyway....the MINUTE we started to move forward, the lights and AC in the coach died. The engineer and conductor have a few choice words..it starts up, and we start moving...everything goes out AGAIN.......We had no power almost the whole way up Manhattan...comes on again..off again....you KNOW its gonna be one of THOSE Amtrak trips...They finally get it going consistantly after Croton,,,but you know its Trouble one way or another...sure enuff when we get into Albany- AFTER they tack on 448, THEN we when we start to pull ahead so they can tack on those all-imporatant mailcars, it goes POOF again-THEN they decide to put another engine set on.....Of course that takes FOREVER with us sitting in the dark, etc...stewing...the poor train chief apologizing his face off...THEN they finally get that going, then of course the all-important mail car meneuvers...we ended up getting about an hour and a half behind at LEAST. The rest of the trip was fairly uneventful, except for the endless apologies.Due to the schedule padding we actually 'only' ended up about 1:15 late.. The food was its usual excellent self, except,of course we had the styrofoam/plastic service as [apparently] the dishwasher was on the fritz....Now coming back.....got to Chicago Union Station about 1 1/2 hours early, checked the big bag, and since I sprung for a room this end of the trip,headed for the Metropolitan Lounge....I must say, pretty neat!They give you a card so you can go in and out of there, and brother we needed it! After the conductor takes and punches your ticket there in the lounge, theres suddenly an announcement: "Due tyo mechanical problems, Train 48 will be delayed an HOUR..." Groans all over the place...Turns out, for some reason, our train [which according to Train Arrival website had only been 35 minutes late!], hadn't been serviced yet!!! {I guess was its turn....] Between that, and the usual mail box crap, we ended up being almost another hour and a half late [Apparently the natives back in the coaches were QUITE restless.....according to one person they had to stop the train to kick off a lady who had started to strip in the middle of the coach! ] At least the diner had the real china this trip....As far as the Viewiner sleeper is concerned, I had Plenty of room! I thought it was quite comfy myself, altho small my bed was adequite, and I slept real well. Of course, my attendant was REAL green [only been working about 3 months!], so he was still a bit disorganized/non helpful, but he was a nice guy....We had to go real slowww from Syracuse-Utica:track work...the Albany Shuffle was actually handled real quick and smooth...but, of course we got slowed up by the work on Metro-North around Scarborough/Ossining...SO.....we ended getting in Penn Station RIGHT at 5 PM..only the Height of the rush....I SOMEHOW managed to get my bag, wait for a cab, and still made up to the PABT in time to make my 6:00 bus home WHEW!!!! Overall, Id give the NPRC a B-, based on my trip....Like an idiot, Ill probably do it again!.....[one more question...doesnt Amtrak supposedly have a 79 mph speed limit on non-Corridor trains?? I know coming back ,we hit 85 between Albany and Po-town...]
What's POtown? The 79 mph speed limit applies only where there it no cab signaling or ATS. The Hudson line has a CSS at least in the Metro-North zone and probably all the way to Albany. Or the ex-NYC ATS might still be installed.
Po Town- localSpeak for the city of Poughkeepsie....
Po Town- localSpeak for the city of Poughkeepsie....
Funny... I was born and raised there (not that I claim it as home, by any means, however) and I've never heard anyone call it that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since I seem to be obsessed with what's going on with the Manhattan Bridge, or what's NOT going on there, I'm somewhat astounded that while work on the Willy B was completed with relative dispatch, the Manny B salvation show keep chugging along. Were the states of disrepair so different on the those bridges? It would seem that since the bridges were built around the same era the problems would be very much alike. Then why so much success fixing one and a myriad of problems with the other. Is there a reason?
Supposedly, the Willie B was in worse shape but fixable. The Manny B was in better shape, but depending on who you ask, it may or may not be fixable. The Manny B carries more weight, and carries it on the outside, twisting and cracking the bridge.
The Manny B's problem is in it's design. As trains cross it, the tension continuously cracks the beams. This cannot be permanently solved by a repair job. The Willy B's problem is simple neglect, and is fixable, as well as preventable in the future with proper maintenance.
The loading factors on the Manhattan Bridge are totally different than those of the Williamsurg Bridge.
The major structural repairs to the Willy B are still to come.
If you're talking about the main span, that may be true; but four of the six approaches have been completely demolished and replaced from scratch. Moreover, the entire structure supporting the rail line on the main span has been ripped out and replaced, down to but not including the basic structural elements of the span. Apart from the overhead work that was in progress when the rail link re-opened, what further work is planned ?
...what further work is planned ?
Essentially replacing the towers and the main suspender cables.
Oh. Is that all? :-)
Having said all that, is there any time table for when the south side of the Manhattan Bridge will reopen to rail traffic?
I always wondered. Couldn't they simply shut down one set of tracks, change them to road, and then slowly move the tracks that way to the middle of the bridge and the roadway to the sides? Or just build the tunnel already?
Hey Dave, I asked that question months ago and was made to feel like the village moron with a slew of answers that must have come from an engineering textbook. I'm told there is an answer to your question and maybe someone will answer it with wording that we can all understand. Of course, the big question is, when they reopen the south side, do they close the north side? And what trains get rerouted over the bridge and away from it? The latter question has not been answered as of yet, I don;t think.
what follows grew out of a steven wright joke... he said that he went to a 24 hour convenience store, and found the owner closing up... he said to the owner: "if this is a 24 hour store, how can you be closing up?"... the owner answered: " it's not 24 hours in a row"...
it sounded better when i heard him tell it...
anyway, a possible new 30 day acceptance testing could lead to acceptance of the new cars after they had completed 30 days of problem free operation... the 30 days need not be in a row...
In 1991, I stopped the acceptance of the R-46s coming back from MK. Reason, over 60 defects per car. True, they were not critical defects but none the less, at $490,000 per car, they were not acceptable. In any event One of the MK people called a state senator about laying off 1/2 the town of Hornell. He called mario the magnificent who called someone at the MTA who called someone who called someone who ordered me to start accepting R-46s. And so the story goes.
If anyone ever doubted that the TA/MTA big shots have to kiss political ass in order to survive, your post should be chiseled into the minds of all who ride the TA/MTA system.
Actually the 30 day test is rather weak.
The trains are scheduled for 5 round trips per day. Each one way trip is approximately 15 miles. So, that calls for 15 x 2 x 5 x 30 = 4500 miles. Going 30 days without a failure would indicate a MDBF in excess of 45,000 miles, using the TA's calculation methods. The fleet average figure for the Redbirds they are to replace is around 70,000 miles.
The two figures are not comparable because the Redbirds are mostly married paris whereas the R142's come in groups of 5. If one bases the metric on a single car, then the figure is 35,000 miles for the Redbirds vs. 9,000 miles for the R142's.
If the object is to get more reliable equipment that has the same level of availability as the old, then a acceptance test of 120 days duration is indicated.
I think you did the math backwards. If a 30 day test means
a 45,000 mile MDBF for the entire train, then statistically that's
a 450,000 mile MDBF measured on a per-car basis. I believe that
is how the current MDBFs are calculated: if there is a failure in
a married pair or a 4 or 5 car set, the failure gets charged to a
specific car number in the set.
NO!!! Each car goes only 4500 miles.
30 miles/trip x 5 trips/day x 30 days = 4500 miles. There are 10 such cars so:
4500 miles/car x 10 cars = 45000 miles without a failure - not a particularly high figure but not as yet attained.
I may have been imprecise, when I went from one car to a 10 car train in my previous post.
Now for availability. Back in the single unit days, a failure in a single car meant one car was lost. Two cars are lost with the Redbird married pairs for that same single car failure. Five cars are lost for that same single car failure. Reflecting things back to the single car, the 70K MDBF for the Redbirds becomes 35K and the as yet unattained 45K for the R142's becomes 9K.
Suppose it take an average of 3 days to fix each repair. (I number I took out of thin air - which may or may not have any relation to the actual unpublished figure). The each set of failed cars would be out for a total of 4 days. There is 1 per train failure per month, so for the entire 1460 car fleet we would expect 146/30 = 4.87 failures/day. This means at any given time 4.87 x 4 = 19.5 five car trainsets out of action. This amounts to 10 full trains out of the 146 or a train availability of 93%. Not a great statistic for a brand new $2.1 million car.
OK, I understand what you are saying now and I agree, assuming
a 30 day period equates to 4500 miles, that's a per-car MDBF
(MDBF essentially being the reciprocal of the probability of
failure) of 45K.
For it to be an apples-to-apples comparison, the same definition
of "failure" must be used. Maybe Train Dude can explain what the
"F" in MDBF really means as applied to the rest of the revenue
fleet. Is a hung guard light a failure? Inoperative HVAC
compressor? Door chime fails to ring? etc.
Some failures are essentially cosmetic (one or two bad main
lighting bulbs, or grafitti). Some failures result in degraded
operation of the car (propulsion fault, no a/c) but it can still
be operated until it can be removed from service. Some failures
are service-affecting to the extent that they can not be remedied
on the road and result in an ABD or discharge en-route, such as
an electric portion problem, brake pipe rupture, or even a missing
horn button on an end car.
I generally agree with you on availability vs MDBF. Although one
might model failures as a Poission-like process, in truth they
are more likely to come in clusters. If failures can
wait until there is a lull in activity, then they aren't availability-
affecting, regardless of the number of cars in a set. Likewise
if the resources are available to repair a large number of cars (sets)
at once, and the failure rate is fairly low, then no queue will
develop and set size doesn't matter.
Summary: MDBF is a metric that correlates somewhat to fleet
availability, quality of maintenance and level of service,
but it tells far from the whole story.
Maybe Train Dude can explain what the
"F" in MDBF really means as applied to the rest of the revenue
fleet. Is a hung guard light a failure? Inoperative HVAC
compressor? Door chime fails to ring? etc.
F = Failure. Failure in terms of MDBF is defined as a mechanical defect that either:
Causes a terminal or en route abandonment.
Causes a train to be late.
Results in a re-route of service.
Hence a guard light may or may not affect the MDBF. The determining factors are what caused the guard light (mechanical failure, debris in the door track or vandalism) and how promptly the crew can get the wheels turning again. A defective door chime would likely not result in a charged delay and so would not impact on MDBF.
One bit of clarification, too. If in the case of a slow train where there are multiple car failures (ie: 3 dead motors), the delay is assigned to just one of the cars (the primary car) and only one charge (for one incident) is charged against the MDBF. Finally, if the train in question is involved in a second incident before it can be removed from service, and the oportunity to remove the train existed, then the second delay would normally not impact on the MDBF.
...Although one might model failures as a Poission-like process, in truth they are more likely to come in clusters...
A Poisson process assumes a that the probability for an event (failure) is proportional to the duration of the observation and statistical independence between all intervals. It is about as unbiased and random as you can get. Any deviation from a Poisson distribution would be indicative of some deterministic or systematic process at work.
Although this is a "how many angels can fit on the head of a
pin" type of discussion.....
another way to view Poisson is that the arrival of events is
spread out evenly, not clustered. Most real systems that are
modeled as Poission are in fact not, and there is some statistical
dependence between observation windows and some systematic determinism
going on. A good example is computer network traffic which tends
to clump up. My point was that car failures probably exhibit the
same pattern (certain external factors such as temperature, humidity,
passenger load probably affect failure rates), however, whether this
is true or not doesn't really impact on the rest of the conclusions.
A few fairly brief observations on various aspects of the Chicago 'L'. Since I did OTHER things than ride trains [shame on me, i know....], and since I had trouble telling one car type from another, I shall refrain from overly technical matters I am unqualified to judge/expound upon.....Natives/frequent visitors feel free to criticize! First:
SPEED: Holey Moley! I almost cried with joy on my first ride on the Brown Line north from the Loop- Real RAPID Transit!! And on a LOCAL train too!! Apparently someone at the CTA remembers that transit is supposed to be a FAST way for folks to get from place to place! [either that, or no ones sued them yet!] This seems to be the rule as far I could see. Got to ride Skokie Swift on Monday, and on the return trip to Howard got to sit in the 'back seat'...how fast does that sucker run anyway? Once got 'caught' on a southbound Dan Ryan/95th train whch ran NON-STOP from Adams to Sox/35th, because it was 'delayed' Whew! We were keeping up with cars on the Dan Ryan I swear!
CLEAN- CTA does a nice job keeping things neat...although they have the advantage of having all stations closed at SOME time or another...
Service- Don't ever remember waiting very long for a train-ever! Including a Saturday and a Sunday! Bus seemed to okay too- although they also seem to have the 'herding' problem that I guess is endemic to all urban bus service...
My Visitors Pass- Worked like a charm...I actually prefer the 'drop-in' that CTA uses.it seems to have less inherent problems.....whereas with the Metrocard 'swipe' system I ALWAYS seem to mis-swipe a t least once or twice a visit...Plus, there is always a station person there [with the CTA] to help with problems. This also leads to my favorite line for the whole trip: At Addison after the Cubs game on Sunday, a turnstile line was moving slowly cause some 'tourist' types having card problems, so a agent/guard/something is screaming at them: "SHOVE it in..then PULL it OUT!!!" which occured to me could be applied elsewhere in life....LOL
Misc: The FIRST thing that absolutely SHOCKED me about the CTA upon entering the station was the prescence of those PEPSI machines!!!Okay, they're outside the fare control, but still, I bet the mere SIGHT of a soda machine on transit property would make your average MTA pencil pusher faint!!! Plus some of the bigger stations still have newsstands! Gee, ya think that they were running something in public service or something, instead of worrying whether someone might leave a newspaper on a trains seat...... Its so cool that the els still have wood platforms..that plus the old-fashioned narrow stairwells...mustve been what the 'good old days' in NY were like....
Another thing, the CTA underground stations still SMELL like a subway...in a nice way...steel dust..MMMMMMM
Okay the red line maybe "rapid," but the blue line from O'Hare is unbearably SLOW (I had to sit on the train to go downtown longer than I had to sit on the tarmac with United). The one good thing was that they did not keep the doors open at the stations very long. Also, the automated annoucements are really annoying. There don't seem to be as many regulations as NYC or WDC, i.e. people smoking on the underground platforms. The other thing I noticed is that there are no transfers between the 'el' and the underground lines.
In the middle of the day, every track, signal inspector gets out, not to mention the usual track walkers and you have instant slow down. Add to that some of the permanent slow zones and yes, a mid day trip is slow.
To transfer from the "L" to the Blue Line subway, a transfer is not needed. The stairs, escalators , elevators are all within the paid fare area which is through the adjoining buildings, the airport/transportation office building to the north and th State of Illinois Building to the south.
From the "L" to the Red Line subway is a different story. Used to be transfer machines that issued a special ticket that was used, abused, sold, and whatever, so the CTA did away with this recently. Your fare card or your transfer card is used without any "deduction" for the transfer. I've never had occasion so I can't respond with 100% knowledge.
David Harrison
>In the middle of the day, every track, signal inspector gets out, not to mention the usual track walkers and you have instant slow down. Add to that some of the >permanent slow zones and yes, a mid day trip is slow.
Yes, one would expect a midday trip to be slower than a rush hour trip, but the rush hour trip still takes 45 minutes (CTA figures, not mine). The trip is about 15 miles. When you calculate those numbers you find the average speed is 11.25 MPH. Even at that speed it’s probably still faster the Kennedy.
try getting better speed on a subway in New York? I think not!
BLUE: The Blue line to O'Hare suffers from the fact that it was a slooooow local that was then extended. If the O'Hare extension had been built today, the line from Logan Square on probably would have been four-track with O'Hare trains running express from Logan Square to the loop. But it wasn't, it was built in the late 80s and people were a lot less transit-friendly then so it was built as cheap as possible which was just adding an extension to the local and otherwise not even touching it. As for the Blue Line, the close-in portions of the Congress branch (I refuse to say Forest Park or any of that other crap) can be pretty slow too - the cars on the Eisenhower keep passing you from about halfway in all the way past Medical Center....
GREEN: I have not had the chance to ride the Green Line since it was rehabbed. I did ride the Lake, however, a couple weeks before it was closed permanently and it was fast then. Our motorman flew, I'd say we hit the 55 max the whole way...we actually caught up to another slower train and had to keep slowing down because the thing in the cab would beep when we were tailgating it (you could see the back of the other train about 1/2 mile ahead). Yes I was right near the Cab, I was hogging the "railfan window" as the New Yorkers would call it....
I have never ridden the Evanston, Skokie Swift, or the Englewood/Jackson park tails.
ORANGE: The orange line is UG-LY as far as architecture goes, but it is freakin' fast! The whole thing is one long concrete span, like a giant freeway overpass and sometimes 60 feet above the ground or more, you fly on that thing.
RED: Having ridden the red both ways it rules - I will always remember the time we took a Metra into the city from Oak Park to go see the Cubs. We walked to the State St station only we got turned around inside the station and ended up getting on a southbound train when we meant to get on a northbound train and didn't realize it until we got to Sox/35th. Well we looked at our watches and we knew we'd miss the first couple innings by the time we went back through downtown anyway so we scalped the Cubs tickets right there at the Red Line station and then went and saw the Sox beat the Yankees.
The truth about Chicago is I can't see how they are behind DC. I've never actualy ridden the DC metro but I can't see how Chicago would rank as the third best transit system - New York obviously has a lot more lines - the CTA sadly abandoned a lot of good routes they had. But Chicago still kicks @$$
Y'know - its funny - when I was in Chicago 20 years ago [for about 13 hrs in-between Greyhounds...] I wanted to run up to Wrigley for a game, and got started out the wrong way on the State St subway too [this is when Greyhound had that HUGE terminal at Clark & Randolph...]; luckily someone noticed I looked lost for some reason, and got me turned around....[So I HAD actually been in Chicago for a VERY brief time...I was excited cause I got to ride what I called the "Bob Newhart Cars" with the folding doors....]
>The line from Logan Square on probably would have been four-track with O'Hare trains running express from Logan Square to the loop
There is no way to make that a 4-trk express train today or any day without pouring tons of money in to it and still messing with the Kennedy right-of-way. The Kennedy already has horrible delays and the area surrounding is quite built up, so either widening the Kennedy or the blue line is out. I think they do skip-stop service during rush hour. As for the orange line you are right, it is quite fast (at least from midway). The architecture is quite ugly outside of the loop.
WDC has a unique advantage over chi-town, FTA poured TONS and TONS of federal highway funds into the system, and this was during the 70’s when people were flipped out about gas prices so they get rid of all of the roads projects in DC and divert the moneys to Metro. While I do not know the history of the CTA, I can safely say some farmer in Nebraska didn’t pay for it.
>>> There is no way to make that a 4-trk express train today or any day without pouring tons of money in to it and still messing with the Kennedy right-of-way. The Kennedy already has horrible delays and the area surrounding is quite built up, so either widening the Kennedy or the blue line is out. <<<
Could express tracks run above the existing tracks? This would solve the problem of room in the right of way. That was done in Los Angeles when they wanted to put a HOV lane on the Harbor Freeway. They added two traffic lanes in each direction on elevated roadway with center pillars in the center of the existing Freeway. The freeway was not widened except at the ends where the HOV lanes merged with the regular lanes.
Tom
Something like that could be possible, but there is not a lot of room (on the sides or the center) to anchor the posts that support the tracks. But lets not forget that the Blue line is underground downtown, that would present a major problem. None of this will ever happen because the pols aren’t eager to go home to their districts in rural Illinois and say, “Yeah, you’re not going to get that road built there because I blew the highway funds in an effort to get people to O’Hare 20 minutes faster.” The feds won’t pick up the tab after the LA Red line fiasco. What they really needs to be done is to either triple the size of midway or build a new airport, then the pols can go home and talk how THEY reduced all of those evil airport delays.
The simplest solution of all is to return to the A/B skip stop service of days gone by. In Chicago they didn't slow to 15 MPH when passing a station, they highballed right thru.
I can't for the life of me see what they gained, at least on lines where the headway is frequent,night is another story. Not only save running time, but think of power consumption and wear and tear on braking, doors, etc.
For sure. The Chicago els were built by private capital and operated privately too; so were the Manhattan els and probably most of the older systems, if not all.
Public works came in with the subways in NYC; built by the city the IRT and BMT were run by private operators. Full municipal operation came in 1932 with the IND. The rest is history, from city systems to suburban, now Amtrak too even if much of it runs on freight RR's. All forms of rail trnsit public or quasi public.
While I do not know the history of the CTA, I can safely say some farmer in Nebraska didn’t pay for it.
But rest assured some of Washingtonians' and Chicagoans' hard-earned cash has found its way to this guy. Ever heard of a farm subsidy? While probably not directly proportional in dollar-terms, federal tax money finds its way to rural areas too. This guy gets price controls and an ethanol development grant, and DC gets a Metro. Win-win. :o)
Federal money built the State St Subway--WPA in the thirties --opened 1943. Thefarmer in Nebraska? maybe maybe not. The Skokie Swift was a 'mass transit demonstration project' meaning CTA got Fed money (well spent IMHO) to purchaser a fraction of the old North Shore and reinstitute service. And, begining with BART all of the newer systems have been federally subsidized. (exception--the first piece of San Diego refused fed money so they would not have to meet fed 'domestic content' or accessibility requirements) All that said, yes DC hada fatter budget in order to be the showpiece one might expect in an imperial capital.
The Dearborn St. subway was started at the same time as the State St. line, but construction was halted when WWII broke out. It finally opened in 1951.
Your part two is a piece of cake. All CTA cars have the same operating envelope; 3mph/sec or better acceleration and braking and a top speed of 70mph. All four series can train together--2200 Budds, 2400 Boeings, 2600 Budds, and the 3200 Morrison- Knudsen; and except for the Skokie can operate on any line.
Although the top speed is 70mph, CTA trains are limited to 58mph, where onboard controls cut power to the traction motors. It kicks back in at 52 mph without any action by the motorman. The cab signal top is 55 mph. I can't get a definite committment if there are any stretches of 70 mph signal left on the Blue or the Orange. I do know that the reverse CTC on the Kennedy has been dismantled.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
Glad you were impressed with the CTA... It's certainly not perfect, but I think that some of us who use it everyday sometimes take it for granted when we start bitching about the CTA, and we forget that it's still one of the best transit systems in the country.
Just one minor nitpick:
CLEAN- CTA does a nice job keeping things neat...although they have the advantage of having all stations closed at SOME time or another...
Most of the stations on the Red and Blue lines are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. IIRC, Harrison on the Red Line and Chicago on the Blue Line are the only part-time stations on either of those lines.
Other than that, sounds like you had a good time. Speaking for myself, Boston's T was cenrtainly interesting and there's a lot to like about it, but it sure feels good to come home to the L.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Welcome back!
"IIRC, Harrison on the Red Line and Chicago on the Blue Line are the only part-time stations on either of those lines."
That was true until about a couple of months ago. The CTA's new policy is that all entrances at all stations are to be open as long as there are trains running on the line(s) serving that station. In other words:
1) all Blue and Red line stations are open 24/7.
2) a bunch of Loop L stations that closed on the weekends are now open so long as trains run on the Loop.
3) all the part-time entrances to various stations are now full-time entrances. The Transit Card vending machines and high-barrier turnstiles have made it possible for CTA to implement the obvious: an open but unmanned entrance is still more service than no entrance at all and having to walk a block to the main entrance.
4) a bunch of exit-onlys (on the Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line especially) have been converted to unmanned entrances, again made possible by Transit Card.
Combined with the fact that Brown Line trains now go to the Loop seven days of the week (they used to terminate, all day Sunday and late at night other days, at Belmont, where one would transfer to the Red Line to reach downtown), CTA has really made some serious service improvements in the last year or so.
The Speed we have here in Chicago with the L is a real treat.
The 40 mph maximum speed in NYC is the only thing that really annoyed me. I'm used to 55 between pretty much every station with the Douglas Branch and Slow Zone Exceptions.
I don't get out to ride the Lake Streeet L (Part of the Green Line) much, but I took a ride out to the Harlem Terminal in Oak Park Yesterday and enjoyed the speed very much.
Especially between Clinton & Ashland & Ashland & California. There is a mile between the first two and around and mile and a half between the second two. The trains really get up to speed and for a long time!!! With the Standard Steel L Structure and all the noise it makes, it is really fun!! It isn't really loud like the subway, but you can tell the different when the train moves to the Embankment as it enters Oak Park ( Just west of the Laramie Station) from Chicago. Running this far Elevated over a street is also neat.
The CTA does have a lot of work to do like the Doulgas Branch Project. But if they keep the system going in the direction it is, it will be one of the best transit systems in the world for speed and convience in the next 5 to 10 years.
BJ
amen to that!
(From inside). A new keyhole was drilled into the left door handle, and the right door handle is now non-operational. So you must pull on the left door handle for the 142a, and the right door handle for the 142. Or, do what I do and use both.
WHY was this done? It seemed to work fine the way it was.
it was done for the safety of the passengers. prevention of breaking a wrist is very important.
Why not just let both handles open? Those doors feel heavier than those on older cars (especially redbirds, R32, 38, 40, 42), anyway.
When you pull on one, you're really also opening the other. Using two hands, the doors feel like they open easier (but close harder).
old business... we still have no idea of what service changes to make as well as no idea of where we can get extra equipment
new business... the following plans are being discussed strictly for the benefit of railfans... from week to week, we will change terminals, route designations, and amount of service to be provided solely to drive railfans crazy...
last weeks plan to run the "v" as a rush hour train on prime numbered days has been reworked to run the "v" as a non rush hour train to be run only on those days of the month that are divisible by 3 ( please consult a math textbook to determine the divisibility rules for "3" )... in place of the rush hour "v" service, we now propose to take those "t" trains leaving chambers street on the 8's and turn them either at myrtle ave or broadway junction depending on the flip of a coin...
now we have to discuss a plan to close several stations on the brighton line for random periods of time for the no apparent reason... customers who normally use these stations will be provided with a shuttle bus to take them to the nearest stop on the "f" line so as to ensure overcrowding and general confusion on that line...
we are still debating whether to make the new r-143 cars a uniform 60ft, 67 foot, or 75 foot... a new proposal made by the committee for innovative ideas is to have each car in the new order built to a random length...
LOL, you still got it!
Good one Paul!
LOL
Lol. Only problem is that is what service is like anyway today.
>>>...we are still debating whether to make the new r-143 cars a uniform 60ft, 67 foot, or 75 foot... <<<
What ever you do please make sure these new trains have an
anti-railfan device of some sort. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean like a cow-catcher?
I think Andee means a special kind of glass at the cab window that, when looked out of into the tunnel's dark, morphs everything into psychedelic effects that have a mind-bending effect on railfans, making them think they're riding on REAL vintage equipment.
I hear they've found an MS upstate serving as a chicken-coop and have sent some folks up there to clone it. (wishful thinking) :o)
wayne
Andee -- glad to see you survived the rabid busfans! I think once a year is good enough for those events!
Later,
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately that is how the MTA is really run - essentially...
That's a hoot Paul. Where does the "p" train (made up of replica BMT Standards, hand-built by Gomaco behind their barn in Iowa) figure into your plans?
:O) LOL
wayne
"Take a Brooklyn-bound K train to Jay St and change to a Manhattan-bound 8..."
At the Pasadena Ca. Hilton hotel home of the old greyhound airpot bus 2 blocks below colorado blvd where the rose parade runs,
& the 260 long beach bus & walking distance to the old amtrak & future PASADENA BLUE LINE ( 2003 )
AT THIS SITE TONIGHT ONE HOUR AGO THE STRIKE WAS MADE FINAL! ITS ON!!
The M.T.A. los angeles rail systems & buses will not run until the strike is over, in which is estimated will last a long time !!!
The working poor will lose thier employment many will br forced into the unemployment rolls & welfare !!
I have been hearing an awful lot of news of the retirement of the Redbirds. Are they going to be retired on ALL the lines, including the famous #7? If so, are they going to the transit museum, or are they all going into drydock? It would seem some fan trips down the road might be appropriate on a retired Redbird.
Everyday is a fan-trip (for me) since we
never know when the end will come.
Intentionally waits for REDBIRDS at 96th St.
I'm more than willing to swap all of my redbirds for your R62s/R62As
It is said that the 1/9 line can no longer
host redbirds due to "low clearance" in the
tunnels north of 96th street... if this is so,
then how are we able to transport our
"redbird shaped" work-car from the 240th Yard
to 14st without pearl-harboring any overhead
beams or overpasses?
A bulletin came out two weeks back cancelling the original bulletin banning the R33s north of 96 Street. They should be running up there now on transfers.
I thought the reason that the 1/9 couldn’t run redbirds in revenue service was because of the gap-fillers at South Ferry.
That's correct, but there was also another restriction north of 96st because some work was screwed up and put stuff too low on the ceiling. Anyone check out the 2 via S. Ferry GO? Does it stop there?
Having been on a re-routed 2 train that DID stop at South Ferry, I can assure you that the gap fillers work with the Redbirds just fine.
-Hank
1 had redbirds pre-1987.. even now with the
2 running to South Ferry (latenights) they
spree by...even with Gap Fillers in place.
thats why i am shotting them on video this late october
catching them while they last !!
Like I used to let the redbirds and other postwar trains go by whiler I waited for a Low-V or High V or similar. Late 50's early 60's. Now I'm tickled pink when I am in the city to get one as I know the end is near. But the prewar stuff was still my favorite.
I couldn't afford to be picky when I was a Saturday commuter, and then I was being picky enough by taking A trains and nothing else. Since I liked the R-10s, it wasn't a problem. On those extremely rare occasions when I'd get a train of R-1/9s, it was an extra bonus.
Sounds like a real fanatic to me. There are still some of us that are fans of one line over all the others. Good show Steve B. Of course, something like this could only come from another fanatic---like me.
Oh, I was an A fanatic, all right. The fact that it skipped 23rd St. (and the E stopped there even though the R-1/9s had "E-8th Ave. Express" side route signs) sealed it. And this Saturday, 9/23, will mark 33 years since that magic moment. I can recall the Saturday right after Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated. There were delays on the subway due to concerns about rioting and sabotage. My mother didn't want to wait any longer than we had to and herded us on an E train at 42nd St. It was pure torture; I was fuming. Then our Canarsie train crawled between Bedford Ave. and Loriner St. I could even make out the I-beams in the crash wall between the tracks. That was the last time I ever took an E train south of 42nd St.
I can honestly say I've been on maybe five trains in my entire life which stopped at 23rd St. - three E and two AA. On one occasion, we must have waited 15 minutes for an A at 14th St., and finally took an E to 42nd St. Somehow I got through the ordeal. The R-1/9s made it somewhat less painful.
Steve: I rest my case. You now know why I insisted on riding the Sea Beach when we got to 42nd Street and Times Square for our ride out to Brooklyn. The Brighton and West End would never do and my parents avoided a scene by givng me my way.
Looking back at my experience, it seemed kind of silly to raise such a fuss over skipping one station. Perhaps if I hadn't felt so betrayed by E trains running local during non-rush hours when they were marked 8th Ave. Express... I do know it made me the express addict I am today, and also forged an intense dislike for the E south of 42nd St., a feeling which still lingers to this day.
They have R33 9306 at the Transit Museum. Here are 2 photos I took and are on my web site, http://www.orenstransitpage.com/.
This is the exact same car as a redbird except for the colors and the windows on the side. My guess is they keep 1 pair of redbirds for fantrips and stuff like that and a single car might go to the transit museum.
I thought 9306 would have its original side roller curtains.
I think it does on the platform-side of the car.
>>>ALL the lines, including the famous #7?
Fred, ALL of the redbirds in the 7 line are due to be replaced by R62A's from other lines (6,1/9 and 3).
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean the #1/9 lines will give up their R62A to the #7 lines, I thought it was the #3,4, and 6 lines will give up their R62/62A to the #7 line? Also will the 42 Street Shuttle give up their R62's to the # 7 line or will they stay their? Last question: When the R62 leaves the # 3 line what yard will the shuttle use their R62?
What!?! Give up our beloved r-62/62A's to the 7??
AS IF we have a surplus supply.. the garage is bare
naked EMPTY during a day's run, ya know??
And we homeline folks don't take too keenly to
having a 142 in our blood stream.
I have heard that:
1/9 will keep their fleet of R62As
2 will get R142s
3 will give some singles (R62A)to the 7, and will get 5-car units (R62A) from the six(I think this trade has been made, The singles may be running on the 6)
4 will keep fleet of R62s, redbirds will be replaced by R62As from 6
5 will get R142s
6 will give all R62As to 3,4,and 7, will get R142As
7 will get R62As from3, and 6
I understand they are going to cull the best 300 or so and keep them in reserve; perhaps use them at rush hour.
wayne
Does the transit museum have room for any other equipment? Last time I was there, I could not see much space left along the platforms for adding any more rolling stock there. Does NYTM have storage space elsewhere?
The museum sometimes stores trains along the unused tracks between Court St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Only problem is that vandals sometimes hit the trains and then the museum has to clean the whole thing up. They used to store the AB standard nostalgia train there, I don't think that they still do though.
I akways thought that the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St in Brooklyn could be used as a NYTM "annex" that has storage space for thirty 60-foot cars. It's fully enclosed, directly accessible to a MOW yard and the West End Line and could be secured fairly "easy".
--Mark
I always thought that the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St in Brooklyn could be used as a NYTM "annex" that has storage space for thirty 60-foot cars. It's fully enclosed, directly accessible to a MOW yard and the West End Line and could be secured fairly "easy".
--Mark
So when can we expect to see those R62s and R62As on the 7 line? Is there any timetable mapped out?
:)Andrew
Whever NYCT's ready, and no.
David
I don't think the MTA has any plans to put R62s on the 7, just the R62A's that run on the #6. My guess would be that you will see the 250 R62A's on the #7 when 250 R142A/R142 cars are on the #6. When subtalkers first heard about the R62A's coming to the #7, it was posted that this change would happen in December...but of course nothing is set in stone. So again, I would pay attention to how many R142s are coming in to get a real answer. -Nick
As of now, the R62's will go to Corona sometime in the early to mid part of 2001, once the R142's are running well on the 6 line. Most the redbirds will be replaced on the 6 sometime this winter, then the R62's will start to go once most of the R142's have arrived. I would expect to see at least one set of R62's on the 7 this December or January, and the others should start to arrive in Feb, Mar, or Apr.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
All the more reason to designate the theme of my visit next month as Ride the Redbirds, Part 2, including a trip on the 7. I covered the Dyre Ave. line last year along with White Plains Rd. and the Pelham line, the latter two with company.
IMHO, a ride on the FLushing Express is not to be missed.
--Mark
09/23/2000
[IMHO, a ride on the FLushing Express is not to be missed.]
Kinda makes you wish the Flushing Line was four tracked instead of the three track configuration. After a refreshing express run to main St. it's a slow go back on the local.
Bill "Newkirk"
I did get to experience a 7 express jaunt after a Mets game on August 1, 1970. Say, Fred, that was your wedding day, wasn't it?
I do plan on heading out to Flushing Meadow Park and take some pics of Corona Yard, maybe even stroll over to the Unisphere. Although I've been to Shea to see the Mets, I haven't walked through the park since our visit to the World's Fair on July 20, 1965.
One way or another, an express run is on my agenda. Another possibility is a transfer to the Queens line at Roosevelt Ave. while heading back to Manhattan so I can check out the new connection. Maybe I might even be able to spot the corridor to the never-used terminal station (no, I won't try to gain access to it).
Clark, as always, thanks for the information...
An interesting long term solution (to a small part of the problem) might be the construction of a "34th Street Mall"
The lowest level is the existing street.
Above that is constructed a road way connecting the Queens Midtown Tunnel to the Lincoln Tunnel. The idea is to keep through traffic
off of city streets. With EZ-Pass the transit of the road and two tunnels is covered by one lower toll. Along 34th Street there are on
ramps, both to New Jersey and to Long Island, but no off ramps. Once on this express roadway, you are out of Manhattan: the idea is to speed egress from Manhattan.
The third level is a long concourse with LRV lines on it. These LRV lines run in a continious loop from huge a parking garage perhaps in Sunnyside, to another in Seacaucus. There is no terminal, just a loop, the cars run continualy. A sleak new bridge will be built to cross the East River, and a new set of tubes will run under the Hudson. No fares will be collected on these cars. In Manhattan, they provide free transoportation to shoppers, commuters, et al along 34th street, and from the parking terminals, the round trip fare is covered as part of the price of parking. I am not worried about others using these cars as a shortcut to Queens or New Jersey since there are no transit connections at either end. But if a pedestrian did want to board there, the fare would be about $5.00 (Round trip express bus fare~ discounted)
The Main deck of the mall is an enclosed walkway, perhaps with cafes, small shops, and of course access to the stores and building along 34th Street. This should revitalize the street big-time.
Finally a fifth level an open walkway, the entire length of 34th street. At each of the avenue intercetions would be fancy resturants, lounges, or other establishments with a good view in all directions.
~oh well.... If you must day dream, do it big.
Elias
Here's my idea of a 34th Street Mall - make it a mall. No car truck bus or anything traffic, just pedestrians and bicycles. End of story. Simpler, cheaper, more attractive. Lots of trees, benches to sit on - station some cops there so it doesn't become a hangout for vagrants, bums or prostitutes - and voila! I agree the tunnels need to be connected better - but what that needs to be is simply corridorizing four streets (pick any four between 40th and 30th) to carry traffic E-W across the island. 34th should be a ped. mall since that's where all the subway stations are. As for the rest of them, a lot of the traffic comes from ther fact that there is no direct route across the little island. Two direct eastbound streets and Two direct westbound streets that both lead directly into the tunnels would reduce a lot of that traffic. That's how they do it in several cities in Texas - the freeways only come as far as the downtown core and then there are two couplets that both directly run onto the freeway at either end of downtown - but passage through downtown itself is on surface streets. No more freeways in Manhattan, please. They should take the ENTIRE Henry Hudson Parkway and tear it up, send everyone onto the FDR or surface streets and make Riverside Park the kind of place it once was before the automobile came in the 30s (look at old pictures you will be amazed at the sheer beauty of the place before freeway offramps).
Now as for some other Manhattan traffic problems....people have said that the Verrazano is underused because of the "exhorbitant" tolls and that if the tolls were taken off it would reduce traffic in Manhattan. The problem isn't that the Verrazano is "exhorbitant," it';s that the rest of the toll roadways are dirt cheap. RAISE the prices on the tunnels and make all bridges into Manhattan toll (that includes the Manny B, Brooklyn and Willy B as well as the Queensborough, etc.). Then hike the rates on the Hudson tunnels and all the prices are equal again! How about some new Path tubes - like a 34th St crosstown or something. Perhaps run a new path tube under 59th, under the hudson river than it splits, half the trains go to Hoboken and the other half go to the west end of the George Washington Bridge and points beyond, perhaps Paramus or something. The answer is not more roads, people!
As for traffic getting off Long Island - eliminating tolls on the Whitestone and Throgs Neck won't reduce traffic - if it's CHEAPER to drive across than more people will drive. How about tolls in both directions, now there's a novel idea....
If anyone looked at the REAL cost of roads per person - they'd see that the so-called "tolls" on most New York area roads are chump change.......
While I agree that 34th would make a great mall, I think that I have done that albeit on the 5th level up. Yes I thought of suggesting that the crosstown connections be on 36th and 37th streets, and maybe that is the place for them, but I also liked the idea of an LRV running the length of 34th (for as you said, that *is* where the transit connections are), It picks up the Javets Center, and the Ferry Terminals on each end, and I like the idea of extending it to Queens and Jersey to huge parking garages, to keep more of the traffic out of the city. People need more options for getting into the city.
Making 34th Street a ground level mall would also force it to break at every avenue, as endless flows of traffic head north and south. Elevating the mall frees it from this traffic. By making it a Mall as in a Shopping Mall (at least on the Enclosed Level) gives access to the stores, and encourages commercial investment in the mall project, instead of limiting its capitalization to the public transportation budget.
Recently I had the misfortune to take a bus out of PABT at 9:30PM, and was delayed over 30 minutes just getting to the tunnel. More tubes are needed for busses. Make the center tube of the Lincoln a bus only tube. Pushing a new set of tunnels at the 34th Street-Hudson crossing will also allow more NJT trains access to Penn station, as well as handling my 34th Street Mall LTVs, and maybe additional bus lanes.
I must say that I do like your idea of closing 34th street to traffic, as that does make access to the mall much more conveninet.
The problem is not that there are more and more CARS in Manhattan, but rather that more and more people need to be moved into and through Manhattan regardless of how they got there. I think that a well planned real estate venture would serve well here.
Elias
Before we start building 5 level streets in Manhattan, maybe we should here from Chicago about their experience with multi-level streets.
"Before we start building 5 level streets in Manhattan, maybe we should here from Chicago about their experience with multi-level streets."
I presume you mean Wacker Drive and Michigan Avenue?
The big plus is traffic separation.
1) The loading docks for buildings on Wacker and the bi-level portion of Michigan Avenue are on the lower level, so a lot of truck traffic is kept off the surface street.
2) A number of express bus routes between North Michigan Avenue and the West Loop train stations (Union and Northwestern) use Lower Wacker to avoid traffic, since they aren't going to be stopping anyhow.
3) Because there are almost no cross-streets, just ramps to and from the surface where cars merge at speed like an expressway, taxis use Lower Wacker as a shortcut to the train stations and savvy drivers use it as a shortcut to the Kennedy-Dan Ryan expressway. I can't count the number of times I've made my once-an-hour (or once every two hours on Sunday!) Metra train out of Northwestern from an evening in the Gold Goast/Mag Mile area because a taxi using Lower Wacker could get from Chicago Avenue to Northwestern in five minutes or less. :^)
The small minus is that Lower Wacker has become a haven for the homeless. But really, Lower Wacker isn't a pedestrian area anyhow, and was clearly never intended to be one, so it's not a significant problem IMHO. As long as the truckers loading and unloading at the building docks don't have any trouble with them, they're not in anyone's way.
ake Riverside Park the kind of place it once was before the automobile came in the 30s
The park did not extend below the cliff, and the New York Central RR divided the park from the mudflats occupied by the homeless' shanties just as the highway now separates it from a beautiful public promenade.
Next time when you want to hate the automobile, do your research.
Hey, I have a better idea. Lets raise all the fares (double them sounds good) on all the light rail and buses in your area!!! How someone thousands of miles away from NY and never has to pay any NY Tolls should dictate what I have to pay is beyond me. While we're at it lets increase your rent too!!!
The only way you could possibly think of putting a mall on 34th Street would be to build an underground traffic tunnel around 37th or 38th streets to connect traffic directly between the Lincoln and Queens Midtown tunnels. Since 34th is the main route for vehicles going straight from Long Island to New Jersey, shutting down 34th would turn the one-way streets north of there into a hopeless mess, let alone what it would do to the already overburdned 42nd Street.
Since any vehicluar tunnel would have to be a minimum of four levels down to get beneath the subway and utility lines, you would be talking a ton of money in order to create an outdoor pedestrian area, when transportation funds for more useful projects in the NYC area is arleady in short supply.
An elevated mall on 34th street need not block the flow of traffic on the street. As for the QMT-LT connection, underground is quite impossible, but an elevated roadway is not. To connect the two tunnels requires an elevated roadway over 36th or 37th or 38th street, but glancing at a map, seems to suggest 37th street. This would not be an expressway but rather only a long access road. We are suggesting that it be one lane in each direction, and no connection to city streets. We are talking a long interchange, not an interstate.
Elias
An elivated roadway is what Bob Moses wanted to build over 30th St. back in the 50s and 60s to connect the two tunnels, along with the Lower Manhattan Expressway linking the Manny B, Willie B and the Holland. Both would end up creating more problems than they solve, let alone the NIMBY battled anything aboveground would entail.
There are no NIMBYs on 37th Street. That is the Garment District, and they would be happy to get the extra traffic off of the street level.
Elias
May I ask, where do you get such an idea?
Arti
You obviously haven't been to East 37th Street lately. Not much commercial business over there, but a lot of people paying a lot for their Murray Hill-area apartments.
Do you live around HERE??
Arti
Used to live south of the Kips Bay Apartments when they were built in the early 60s. The south side of the complex would have been right next to the overhead expressway Moses wanted to build (though I never saw the plans how it would link up with the Midtown Tunnel at 36th St.), and was a subject of tremendous opposition at the time.
An underground road connecting the two tunnels probably would turn out some NIMBYs as well, but the big problem would be getting it under five subway lines.
I just picked up the newest version of Peter's excellent book. Version is 2.5 and has all the yards, new track linmeup for 63rd street, L line at Atlantic, etc.
I bought mine at Hoboken and it is well worth the price.
(I am not getting any kickback or discount for this plug.)
They had that in 2.2 (my book) I'll hold on to my money. I'll wait and pick up 3 when it comes out instead of picking up all the 2.x books.
running on...
or
It is running on the shuttle 2day.
S
Shuttle
Grand St. Manhtn.
:-)
Is it at the museum store yet? Was thinking about having Peter ship it to me, but would like to save on S&H if possible.
Does anyone know what Commuter railroads use radio defect detectors. I know that NJT has them on the AC and ex-Erie lines, but that is probably because of all the freight traffic. Does Metro North, the LIAR, the rest of NJT and Amtrak use radio defect detectors? I would hope Amtrak does because of the hi-speeds involved. Also are there any transit professionals who would like to comment on the usefulness of radio detectors on transit lines.
"IRT division...St. Lawrence...Bronx...Track 2...No Defects...Total axle count 2-4...over"
"IRT PBCH-123 St. Lawrence no defects over."
"NYCT detector Manhattan Bridge north track you have a defect"
"NYCT detector Manhattan Bridge north track slow hippopotamus axles 1-32"
"NYCT detector out"
Actually most detectors are not that smart. They will give you 32 seperate alarms. Hi-car detectors give 1 warning per axle on the offending hi-car.
The two detectors on NJT, the Atlantic City, Southern Tier branches checks for dragging equipment, overheated journals and stuck or sliding wheels. Each branch does have a speedometer checkpoint.
I assume the Southern Tier De-Det is for NS freight trains and the AC De-Det is for the SJRR freight trains.
These are out of the NJT timetables dated 1997. All trains are required to stop clear after passing these detectors when notified of a defect.
"SubTalk...Jersey Mike is back" :) (just kidding)
I can't believe I'm the first one to report back to the board on this extraordinary day. Could be that some of us made this a TRIPLEheader, what with the BusFest, the Hoboken fete and the show at Liberty Park.
After being at the BusFest from 11:00 to 1:30 (my take on it is in Bustalk), I grabbed an 'N' to Cortlandt, then PATH to Hoboken. At first glance, Try Transit seemed much more like a typical street fair/block party. There were overpriced food vendors, very loud off-key pop singers, kiddy rides (that Bungee Run looked like some kind of child torture device) and tables of stuff being sold that had nothing to do with transportation.
What was interesting was:
Newark PCC car #11 was mounted on a trailer in the outside plaza. The curator told me it's still at least several years until the new cars take over.
Next to Track 18 there was a demonstrator railroad crossing that you could manipulate yourself. The first time I heard the bells ring, I thought I was going nuts. You could see the exact chain of events that take place within the assembly when the gates go down.
Along the platforms between tracks 3 and 10, there were railroad-related items for sale- a lot of models, photos, magazines and timetables. I saw Doug and Heypaul for a second state in a row, and they directed me to a table where free tickets to the HBLR were available. The lady working it informed me that on November 18, it's being extended north from Exchange Place to Pavonia-Newport. That will improve PATH access a whole lot.
On Track 7, I think, was the 20th Century Limited, which was open to the public. You went in one end and through many cars out the other. It was funny seeing the ornate parlors, kitchen and bathrooms. There was a very interesting exhibit on the history of mail operations on the railroads before air freight took over.
A modern PATH car, an old Pennsy car and several contemporary Metro North electric locomotives and push-pulls were also on display. First time I ever got on a train at Hoboken that didn't have newspapers on the seats.
People getting off regular NJT trains for Dover and Summit looked very confused at all the festivities.
Everything was closing up around 4:00, so I headed back all loaded down with freebies. As far as I know, I didn't see anyone else I knew, except for perhaps a glimpse of Dave outside by the buses.
How did everyone else fare today?
howard... driven by doug who had not taken his ritalin today for his hyperactivity, we left hoboken around 3:30, biked over to exchange place, took the hblr... one interesting thing on the ride was the doors were opening at each position only if you punched the button... that was the first time i had seen that... we biked over to the railroad show at the cnjrr terminal... that show will also be on tomorrow... the admission was $6, but they stamped my hand and it is good tomorrow too... i won't be going, but if anyone is interested, i can lend them my hand so that they can save $6... we bumped into derrick " d train" at the show and hung out... when we left, i was ready to go home, but no, these two guys wanted to ride out to 34th street on the hblr... we finally went back to the world trade center and split up... in one final act of lunacy, i rode all the way home by bike... i haven't arrived yet, but phoned ahead and asked my clone to post this message...
Gee. I was about to tell you not to wash your hands tonite......
[i haven't arrived yet, but phoned ahead and asked my clone to post this message...]
Don't you mean "clown" not clone??? ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
I just went to BusFest, and got to meet many people from BusTalk and SubTalk. I even saw you in your Honeymooners T-Shirt talking to some other guy. Overall, it was a really fun day!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Was that you, Howard , in the Honeymooners tee-shirt? I saw you!
Chuck Greene
Unfortunately, I got a late start because, to put it in horse terminology, my wife came up lame this morning (and I'm the horses' you know what!) and I spent the morning in the doctors office with her. So I only got to BusFest around 1:30 and also visited Hoboken a little after 3. Not nearly as many tracks occupied with rolling stock and not many vendors, and lots of freebies left over and vendors not busy and.....you get the message. Maybe because I got there so late, but I hope it wasn't the last one, I don't want to start trouble, but the place was empty compared to past years. And it was a beautiful day. And it does cost NJT a certain amount of money to put it on and, well, you know these agencies are always looking at their budgets.........yada, yada, yada.
I saw Tom Moran, long-time radio personality on Philly, South Jersey and Jersey Shore stations. He did the narration on the last run of the GG1 documentary that was mentioned on a thread here recently. He's also involved with the Cape May Seashore Line.
I found the door-closing warnings on the HBLR to be piercingly shrill, uncomfortable to my ears. Maybe I'm just sensitive to the particular frequency. (Henry was on the same car; did you find the sound to be shrill?) It was equally offensive on car 2007 from Exchange Place to Liberty State Park and on car 2020 coming back.
The announcements on 2020 were off by one station (both the automated P.A. announcements and the red sign in the car). At Essex St. the end of the line was announced. The automated announcements then stopped, the red lighted sign went off and the TO came on and announced that the next stop would be Exchange Place. He made all the subsequent announcements.
They didn't lower the volume on the HBLR ones like they did on the LIRR C-3s. Not too many people ride them enough to complain, I guess. I too, found them a tad too loud.
Rats! I was rding the HBLR by myself and didn't see any of you guys!
(At least the ones I thought I could remember the faces of). Maybe next time I could meet someone at Hoboken. My friend, who I met after my HBLR ride showed at up he said at 1:00 . I got back from my HBLR ride around 1:30. I was on the first articulated bus at 12:00
and we had to deboard and get on another because the "dependable-bendable" bus wouldn't start. This was my second ride on the HBLR and I enjoyed it! I had a train that went down the west 34th branch.
The station announcements were very clear but were sometimes repeated
too much. These cars are not going to do well in the Newark subway. too much time is used up at stops and I don't think they accelerate
as fast as the PCC's. Our group of about 40 were about the only
ones riding, and we rode for free! Maybe we picked up 5 or 6 paying
passengers. The is a lot of "real estate" growth along the line. I hope this spurs more ridership or the system is in for heavy losses.
Maybe the new extensions to Hoboken & beyond will help. I see on a
proposed map the trains will run into Hoboken kinda on Observer Hwy.
and then back out to turn northward about 6 blocks west.
Sorry I missed all you guys!
Chuck Greene
Correction- we rode to West End Av. , not west 34th st- there is no station like that! - Sorry!
Chuck Greene
Sorry I missed you, Chuck. I rode the 2:30 "dependable-bendable" bus to Exchange Place, but then after a short HBLR ride, took PATH back to Newark from Exchange Place to get home in time to visit my parents on my mother's 87th birthday.
Also sorry I missed Doug, and I'm still looking forward to meeting heypaul.
Bob
Sorry I missed you, also. Take care and have a good week.
Chuck Greene
I must just missed you i got off the bus at 2:20. it wasn't as good as other years.
My dad and I were also on that 12 PM run. We got herded to 3 (!) separate loading areas (first, we were lined up in front of RTS 2775 in 'lane 3', then we got moved to 'lane 4' for artic 9122 (?) which couldn't get going, then we were told that 9144 would load on 'lane 2', then it showed up after we all got herded to 'lane 1' to clear a couple of in-service buses!). The 'dependable-bendable' smell brought back thoughts of SEPTA's dearly departed Volvos, as did the tricky rear door, which kept wanting to close at Ex Place.
We took a short hop on the first car leaving to West Side Ave, crossed over at Liberty State Park and returned to Ex Place, where we caught PATH back to J Sq and home (after my gushing about NJT trains, I drove this time due to time constraints). The shrill beep for the doors closing was not evident on the outbound trip but was VERY loud on the inbound - it could be lower in volume! Two things that puzzled me were (1) the long wait on the inbound at Essex St (at least 3 minutes there, for some reason) and (2) the signs on inbound platforms which say 'trains to Hoboken'. From the looks of construction we got on the bus ride over from Hoboken, there seems to be lots to do before the cars will reach Hoboken.
The festival seems smaller every year, especially when compared to those in the late 80's and early 90's when the place was packed. Of course, I personally don't miss some of the non-related vendors (and there were still a couple on the first platform) and there were competing events (the show at Liberty State Park and the Bus Festival). Too bad I didn't have time for Brooklyn this time.
Too bad I missed you, also. Of course I don't know what you look like, and vice versa. Anyway , I'm sure we all had a pretty good time riding the HBLR. Were you on the artic where the female operator kept punching the start button? I heard someone say they had just waxed the floor of the bus, and maybe some wax got into the start
button area? Like you described, we were all pushed on to the second
artic and we left about 10 minutes late. We rode the West End Line,
but maybe 10 minutes later we could have been on the Bayonne line train. I guess everyone got a trip on either of the two lines. Nobody
ever checked my validated ticket, so I could have hung around and
rode a few more times.
Chuck Greene
I guess one of these days we'll meet. I wasn't thinking about SubTalkers at Hoboken since I thought most would go to the Bus Fest. I hadn't checked SubTalk much last week to see what was going on, etc either (fall comes and things heat up, strangely enough, so less time for the computer!).
We didn't get on the first artic. We had lined up in front of the RTS since the loaders were saying that it would be taking the group. Only after we got shifted the first time did I realize that the artic sitting there was the tour run. I was a bit surprised since NJT is usually more organized.
I may have stated it incorrectly - we took the first car leaving Ex Place when we arrived, which was going to West Side Ave. We only rode as far as Liberty State Park, then switched to catch a return trip. I believe we were on 2013 out and 2022 (I'm certain of this one) coming back. The return was pretty empty and we were the only railfans on the trip.
I had gone to the train show at the old CNJ station last spring and drove out to the Liberty State station to park and ride the line on my way home. Even though the parking lot was dead empty, I was advised by a Jersey City policeman that it was not open for parking (about 1 PM on a Sunday afternoon), so I left and returned home. I was hoping that would be my first ride on the line. I didn't think too much about our trip to Hoboken being the first chance to do this, but it worked out. (As I noted, fall is busy - we were considering a quick trip to Brooklyn for the Bus Fest, but really would be squeezing things due to time constraints, and the free ride on HB was too enticing to pass up.)
We didn't validate the second ticket we were each given (and we had two others in addition to the two each handed out on the bus, since we had gotten them at the table in Hoboken terminal). The way I read the signs, the validated ticket is good for 90 minutes. I didn't notice any inspectors around either.
I got stopped by an inspector, I guess when you run for the train and make no effort whatsoever to go to the validation machine, you stick out like a sore thumb.
doug and i saw a guy getting hassled by 2 fare inspectors and a think a city cop...
is it true that on the weekends now, a ticket is good for an entire day of riding? i saw that posted here, but i have come to doubt what some subtalkers say... we have a bunch of comedians here...
The is a lot of "real estate" growth along the line. I hope this spurs more ridership or the system is in for heavy losses. Maybe the new extensions to Hoboken & beyond will help.
Hoboken service indeed is expected to help ridership considerably. If the line ever gets extended to the Lombardi park-'n-ride lot on the NJ Turnpike, so much the better (though that's many years off). In addition, as you noted, residential and employment growth along the line should help too. Ridership indeed has been underwhelming to date, but hopefully that should change.
Wish I could have joined you all... but I had to make a run down to DC to take some things to my daughter and bring back another load of packing boxes since she has no place to store them in her mini-apartment. My route takes me by the Amtrak yards and I did see one F40 baggage conversion with what looked like possible fire damage - there was what appeared to be a substantial amount of scorching and/or soot above the baggage door on the engineer's side - didn't get the number, unfortunately. Does anyone know anything about this?
On a related note, Anon_e_mouse Jr., Margaret, and I had a delightful lunch at the Thunder Grill in Union Station - very good Tex-Mex food. Reasonably priced - $45 including tip for the three of us (three entrees, three soft drinks) - and a whole lot better than fast food.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went only to the Hoboken festival, I tried to go to the model train show but didn't feel like walking more than 100 feet from LSP station to try and find it.
I got to sit in PRR and NY Central cars, make announcements in a Metro-North Comet IA (nobody knew about that) as well as on a PATH PA4, including "This train is not going anywhere." I think my voice sounds rather good over the PA, with no training at all, so why do so many conductors sound horrible? The engineer had left the brake handle in the cab of the Comet IA, I put it in but nothing happened (rats). The engine was off, where was the power coming from?
I literally jumped onto the darkened Comet IV (door open but trapdoor down, I don't think we were supposed to go here), and opened the trapdoor to allow my friend to board, strange not even emergency power was on. Got pics of me in the cab, explored the train, realized it got crowded in there and so we departed after using the emergency unlock on the other car (automatic doors didn't work, either). Five minutes later all doors were closed and locked, so much for that.
I watched them pull the equipment out until 6:30, they were giving out those $5 posters for free shortly after 5. Strange seeing NJT engines pulling PRR equipment, even stranger was the Morris(town?) and Erie engines actually work. Saw MNRR engine coupled to NJT Diesel and electric engine, for a short while all that was coupled to the two dark Comet IVs (3 engines to pull 2 cars?). The ex-Amtrak MNRR engine disconnected from the Comet IA at the end too.
I left after they moved the postal train to track 2, great seeing/hearing a Genesis in Hoboken, maybe MNRR will throw one NJT's way?
At 4:30 I heard this announcement over the station PA:
Would Doug Diamond please meet the 3/4 ton [crew] by the lost and found.
This was repeated twice. I think "Club" or "Group" was used in place of the word "Crew".
Hey, Howard. heypaul and I didn't see you at Liberty State Park. We guessed that you never made the 3 O'Clock bus to Exchange Place?
After meeting Pelham Bay Dave's son, Trevor, 3TrainMike (aka sub-bus), and Sid from New Jersey at the Bus Festival, heypaul and I biked over the Brookly Bridge to catch the PATH to Hoboken. There we saw Mark W., Bill Newkirk and some of the Bus Festival crew. Hoboken was a great show as far as I was concerned. However, Paul informed me that years previous the event was far more crowded with vendors all over the platforms. I picked up an old Union Dime Savings Bank hand-out subway map (1957) and a nice TA annual report from 1967 with their newest cars on the cover, the slant R-40s. We picked up a number of the free HBLR passes which came in handy for our further NJ adventuers (tickets must be used before 10/31/00.
It was funny that the only SubTalker we ran into at the Liberty State Park Toy Train Show was the AWOL railfan, "D Train". Apparently his computer crashed in June and has yet to get a new hard-drive. That's why we haven't heard from him. He introduced heypaul and I to Jack LaRossa (Image Replicas). LaRossa has just released a 3-car set of HO scale R-9 subway cars for a great price of $199.95 (includes underside detailing, etc.). The detail is even better than the old Q-Car models! Overall the model train show wasn't as sussesful as Hoboken, but then the great weather undoubtedly lured people to outdoor activities like Hoboken and the NYCT Bus Festival.
It all goes to show that if you really want to do something badly enough, you'll make it happen.
Doug aka BMTman
It certainly was an exhausting day for me personally. I did have the energy to go for two of the three shows, but I decided to go all the way on this one!
I started the day by first going to the Liberty State Park show. After leaving the PATH train at Exchange Place, I rode for the first time ever the new HBLR line to the Liberty State Park station, and from there I actually walk that long distance (it took about fifteen minutes) to the CNJRR terminal.
At the first show, I only stayed until 10:40am, after I picked up a copy of the book "Interborough Fleet" at a discussed reduced price, plus some color 8X10 photocopy prints (one of them was R-10 #3160 going through the car wash at 207th Street Yard in June 1960). I did see one of the ERA members at the show.
Then, off to Hoboken, by walking back to the HBLR Liberty State Park station, while en route I had seen new Nova RTS buses of the ex-Central Avenue Bus Line route and minivan shuttles going to the park. I have to admit that these new LRT cars are quite modern, but were operating slow and cumbersome on that day I rode there.
At Hoboken, I had seen a fellow SubTalker and railfan colleague Mark W at one of the railfan vendor stands, and it was also good to see Hal Smith again. Much of the details said by other Subtalkers were correct in their posts of the show there, and I was able to snatch about lots of glossy photos (including R-10's of course) from many dealers. I even got a Corgi Santa Monica Fishbowl bus at half the suggested listed retail price, and afterward I had left Hoboken at about 12:30pm.
After having a quick lunch in Manhattan, it was off to the Museum Bus Festival in Brooklyn. I had met up with a few ERA members at the place, and just as everywhere else I had went, everyone to know basically where I have been (I was taking a self-imposed hiatus from the hobby for this time).
More purchases included more photos from inside Joe Sattia's bus (including a blue-and-white R-10 on the Liberty Avenue portion of the IND "A" line) and another bus fan as well, plus two R-42 number plates bought at the Museum's gift shop. The entire wrapup for myself personally ended around at 2:30pm (hard to believe I know).
Whew!!! It was certainly a long, but quite great day in terms of the hobby in such a grand style.
-William A. Padron
[Mr. R-10...as the nickname that every other railfan calls me by]
Hey, Mr. R-10 - long time no hear! How've you been? That handle is certainly well-deserved. So how many photos of our beloved R-10s did you acquire in all?
Let's see...from the 44 photos that I had acquired during the day from the three shows altogether, I had pick up exactly sixteen (16) of them. Three of the R-10 pictures in the group including original small size B&W prints photographed on the BMT Jamaica Line, at Marcy Avenue and 168th Street (Queens) plus a very good interior shot with fully lit lighting. The IND "A" line 8x10 glossy B&W pics were all on the Liberty Avenue and Rockaway line portions of the route circa 1956-1960.
-William A. Padron
(Mr. R-10's).
Are the R-10s in the Jamaica line photos sporting their original two-tone gray paint scheme? I'm sure you've seen the picture of the #15 train at Myrtle Ave. with an olive green R-10 on the end. Karl B. says all of the R-10s he saw on the Jamaica line were sporting their original paint. By the time I arrived on the subway scene, the teal-and-white racing stripe finish had taken over.
Yes, the exterior shots of the R-10's on the BMT Jamaica Line during the mid-1950's were indeed with the original two-tone grey paint scheme, but they had become so dirty on the outside due to the heavy accumulated steel dust and no car washing on them until 1960. The one clean blue-white with stripe R-10 B&W photo (featuring car #3246 as the lead unit of a Manhattan-bound run) that I had acquired during that day was shot on the outer Liberty Avenue portion of the IND "A" line (probably Rockaway Boulevard) in Queens circa 1967.
-William A. Padron
You know, every time I see Mr. Padron's name on subtalk, I know it MUST have to be R10-related. LOL
But of course. After all, he's Mister R-10.
My screensaver features a July 1967 photo of a Lefferts Blvd.-bound A train at Rockaway Blvd with the racing stripe scheme - my personal favorite. No car number is visible, and the bulkhead curtain reads "Fulton St-Lefferts Blvd.". Every R-10 I ever remember seeing on the A had "Fulton-Lefferts Blvd." Or perhaps I just never noticed the difference. And to top it off, there is a prewar A train on the Manhattan-bound track with R-4 714 in the rear.
There is a bit of strange irony of that great 1967 R-10 & R-4 combo shot photographed at Rockaway Boulevard. I have a duplicate color slide of this same shot that I had acquired at least a decade ago, as well as two subsequent original surplus shots at the same spot and location done by the very same credited photographer.
In one shot, silver and blue R-10 #3340 bound for Far Rockaway is on the southbound track while A/C-fitted R-38 #4144 (with original bulkhead but with a color coded route sign in the former terminal slot) is on the northbound track (circa early 1980's) In the other, an non-GOH R-44 "A" train is on the southbound track, while a green R-10 [#3203] coming from Rockaway Park (signed with a color coded blue diamond "C" but with a vintage "Fulton/Euclid Av" destination) is on the opposite side (circa 1986).
However, the July 1967 R-10/R-4 combo snapshot (as seen on this web page) would be considered as a great example of the two classes of rolling stock that made the IND Division (including on the "A" line) quite well known at their utmost prime. Now if only MTA NYC Transit could restore #3189 to its former glory, and perhaps have it painted in the blue/white with stripe format, which was probably the most popular of all the paint schemes that was ever applied to the R-10's during its amazing four-decade career.
Wishful thinking and/or dreaming, I guess...
-William A. Padron
It's unfortunate that the teal-and-white w/racing stripe scheme was so short-lived. Seeing such a train rip past 81st St. accentuated the sheer brute speed the R-10s were so famous for. By 1968, the R-10s started turning up in that half-and-half paint job. On one Saturday morning, I got an A train whose first car still had the racing stripe while the rest of the cars were half-and-half.
I agree with you: 3189 should be restored to its former glory with the racing stripe scheme - signed up as an A, of course.
No, I never made it to Liberty Park I'd been out since 9:30 that morning and didn't want to abuse my privilege- I do want to go to New York Days at BERA next month.
I was ready to go on the HBLR tour, but got distracted by the old equipment on the low numbered tracks. I did get the free tickets, but I'll save them for to share with a transit buff friend who's coming in from the Bay Area in a couple weeks.
A lot of things, especially the old mags and maps, really looked tempting, but I'd never have time to read them. You could easily spend thousands on the stuff they had there. Besides I'm trying to save up for a new (used!) car, and just took my wife for task for buying new clothes. Gotta save face, you know.
It was my first year going to TTF, and I had a great time. I saw Henry and chuchubob, got a Path bag before they ran out, and got a free poster. A few of us had loads of fun playing with the Comet IA's PA after Henry found out about it. It was also neat to see and be in the PCC on the trailer. Only problems: the free half-hourly HBLR bus left Exchange Place just before my train came in; I had to waste a dollar on Path, and my lack of money: I hadn't brought $25 for an "M" duffel bag, $18.95 for an HO Metro North coach, or even $15 for the framed R10 and Turboliner pics. Even worse, shirts were $15, a tad too much.
There's a chat now at subtalklive.com.
You should come.
Yeah but nobody's there!!!
It makes sense that nobody would be there an hour after I posted.
I gave up on waiting.
I saw two Amtrak trains today with Acela motors pulling a consist in the Northeast Direct livery. The first was eastbound running past Hamilton station at 10:43 AM. My attention was with the parking token dispenser, so I didn’t get a good look. The second also took me by surprise as I was walking back to my car at Hamilton at 5:10 PM. This one was westbound, again pulling a consist in NE Direct livery. The motor was the kind with both ends streamlined. I was too startled by the morning one to notice whether it was the single- or double-end power.
Bob, you got lucky today. When I was at BWI Rail Station this evening, I saw the exact train you saw.
HHL8 655 hauled Train 182 northbound and Train 85 southbound today. According to the times you observed in the morning and afternoon, you watched the exact same train twice!
Chaohwa
Thanks, Chaohwa, I was hoping you'd respond. Do you know how long Amtrak has been using HHL8's on regular trains, or is # 665 the only one so far? (two questions)
Bob
So far three HHL8s have been accepted by Amtrak-- 654, 655, and 659.
655 is the first HHL8 to enter revenue service (mid-August). It has already hauled Metroliners. I don't know whether it hauls Acela Regional Trains. At least they are running well.
Chaohwa
Thanks. I appreciate the NEC info that you post.
Bob
Those weren't "ACELA Motors" as you said. ACELA is specficly the entire high speed trainset with one single ended motor car on each end of the train set.
You saw the HHP-8's the replacement (actualy additon) to the AEM7's. There are a few in Clocker use now. I've seen one or two testing at and north of New Haven as well.
ACELA!!
Amtrak Customers Expect Late Arrivals!!
Thanks for the clarification.
However, HHL8s are indeed included in the Acela project. The high-speed trainset is called Acela Express.
Acela includes Acela Express, Acela Regional, and Acela Commuter.
Chaohwa
Those are the marketing names, my point is that the ACELA is the whole highspeed trainSET, not just the engine. ACELA Commuter will still use AEM7's, are you going to call them ACELA too??
But the whole high-speed trainset is called Acela Express. Acela is a new brand.
Also, AEM-7s haul Acela Regional. I am going to call them Acela, too. I still call the high-speed trainset Acela Express.
Chaohwa
Moreover, the high-speed trainset, aka the Acela Express, is indeed the flagship of Acela, but it doesn't represent Acela ONLY. Besides Acela Express, Acela includes HHL-8s, AEM-7ACs, the rebuilt "Capstone" cars, station renovations, and so on.
Chaohwa
HHP-8 are an E60 replacement. AEM's are set to go many years into the future. Maybe they will start running the Silver trains electric through to DC. Do they have C-C or B-B trucks?
Since the transit strike is on & I do not think it will end monday & since I always have the need to SHOOT something rail transit related ( all tranist rail cars stations & related visual material etc..
ME ,myself, & I & my son tonight will go to the del amo ( long beach ) BLUE LINE
storage yards ( there is a road that leads to it ) Above grade etc..& NOT INSIDE THE YARDs..
With an excellent view of all of the pretty little BLUE LINE trains parked!(storage shops truck repairs car overhaul etc..you know)..
Its almost like overlooking the corona yards near flushing however a wider more panoramic view !!!( not a bad idea eh ? ).....
I saw it from the southbound BLUE LINE train this week before the strike! A nice good clear view on the yards there !!Shoot my shot & go home !! Yea man! Thats what you do on a hot southern california night! !!
>>> Its almost like overlooking the corona yards near flushing however a wider more panoramic view !!!(not a bad idea eh ? )..... <<<
Just do not be surprised if you are hassled by the police who will be on the alert for anyone hanging around the transit property during a period of labor unrest.
Tom
the road over the long beach BLUE LINE yards is public property!!
anyone just taking still & video shots are not hasseled as long as
you keep the public road clear !! I shot of aprox 10 pictures, came out nice!! & we could see the red pacific electric replica looked very
nice!! There is some union busting going on & the transit workers there were worried that i was some kind of a ""SCAB"" when i assured them i was only there to shoot off some NIGHTSHOTS then all was cooled off completely!! Even the security & police said ""squezze off your shots quickly"" as long as I dont take too long !! thank you sir!!
It all worked out !! I will load them on my yahoo photo album soon!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
the labor protesting was at the beginning of the yard there are some trains being prepaired for UNION BUSTING by SCAB operations!!
thankz salaam allah..
Looking around the Hoboken Festival, I noticed something. Like the BMT eastern division, hand-me-downs are used for the West-of-Hudson service. They have rebuilt and refurbished engines, and the coaches are NJT-style ones with MNRR logos (5135-36 are ex NJT and still have clearly visible NJT markings), as well as many NJT Comet I low-door trains. They have less than 10 shoreliner rejects from the regular lines, all but 3 have been renamed from some other names. In 1 year, this is what they'll have:
Rebuilt Comet IIs, but only the NJT style ones.
The same Comet IAs.
Rebuilt Comet Is, no longer low-door I imagine (so they can use high platforms).
The same Shoreliner rejects, plus 40 more, and about 10 will be GOH'ed by MNRR (so they'll come out spectacular).
8 MNRR Comet IVs built special for West-of-Hudson service.
Same old engines (would it kill them to throw in a Genesis?).
Projections for future service come from an edition of Mileposts West and hobokenterminal.com.
MNRR also took a couple of Amtrak castoffs for the West-of-Hudson service, two F40s, but unfortunately no Genesis engines.
If my thinking is right the R62, R62a, R68, R68a, same for R142 types...are not normally mixed and each type kept on some lines. Are they incompatible with each other..for instance can't mix a 62 with 62a? I'm of course aware that the basic types are entirely different, but are the subclasses incompatible or are they kept separate for maintenance purposes? Yes, I haven't followed up on this stuff.
The only equipment that cannot be mixed are R44/46s to any SMEE equipment or an R44 to an R46. The reason being that SMEE trains(R32/33/62/68, etc) use an H2C coupler while R44/46 equipment use an HT4-U93 coupler. These two cannot link up to each other without the use of a coupler adaptor(only used in emergencies). Kind of like trying to plug in an american appliance to a european outlet.
The reason why R44's cannot be coupled to R46's is that they use different air systems. The brake pipe pressure for an R46 is 110 lbs.psi while an R44 uses 130 lbs.psi and can even go as high as 160 lbs.psi. Actually you CAN couple them but you have to pull the air angles underneath the two cars separating the R44 and R46, but you would need two people to operate this way(again, only used in emergencies).
And yes, you can couple a R62 to a R62A and you can even couple a R62 to a R68. The couplers and air systems are equal.
Work trains were not considered in the earlier response(No, they cannot couple to any passenger equipment without use of the proper coupler adaptor). They have a totally different type of coupler whose number escapes me at the moment(I've never worked miscellaneous equipment), but I'm sure that someone shall supply this info a little later.
I'm not sure if all work equipment is the same now but I remember from my days with the TA that work equipment was gradually becoming all "MCB" couplers, which was the standard railroad knuckles .I'll assume that's the coupler you mean.
I was aware that the R44 and 46 were only semi compatible when new, but under normal conditions couldn't be MU'ed. mostly because the R46 had a trainline charging wire which the R44 didn't have.My curiosity about the subclasses of R62, 68 etc has been answered.
MCB. That sounds right to me.
Yes, it's MCB, although some work equipment has H2 heads.
Westinghouse cars can not be placed at the end of trains containing
GE cars because of arc suppression issues in the master controller.
There are similar issues with mixing NYAB and WABCO cars. Some of
the R32 fleet has been modified to handle this.
Seems foolish. Before the GOH's of existing SMEE's we could MU just about all SMEE cars, and often did in shop drags, e.g. Concourse [with IRT cars] to 207 St. for shopping.Wonder why they complicate matters.
09/18/2000
Does the intiials "MCB" stand for anything ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Master Car Builder's Association. The term is misleading and
peculiar to NYCT. The MCB Assocation was (still is) a trade
association that set some standards. One of the key areas of
work in the early decades of this century (or the last century
depending on your 0/1 preference) was on standardizing passenger
and particularly freight car couplers to permit interchange
of cars on different railroads. What the TA calls the "MCB"
coupler is really the Type E coupler, originally standardized
by MCB, and now controlled by the AAR. It is used universally
on all North American freight cars and freight locomotives. Another
trade slang term for this coupler is the "knuckle" coupler.
Does this mean that a "coupler adapter" was in use to couple OF116 to the R-33/36s on the Redbird fantrip?
They coupled a flat car to an R33/36? Interesting. Yes, they had to use an adaptor as miscellaneous equipment use MCB couplers and R33/36s use H2C couplers.
What does such an adapter look like?
It looks ugly.
Just kidding. Actually there are three types of couplers:
H2C-HT4U93
H2C-MCB
MCB-HT4U93(rare)
It is simply a large piece of iron weighing about 30 lbs. which has the face (using H2C-HT4U93 example) of a H2C on one side and a HT4 U93 on the other side. Same with the other adaptors. It takes two persons to install it.
If you want to see what it looks like, look at a picture of an R46 head on. Look just to the right of the coupler and you should see the H2C coupler adaptor stored away. If you see an empty box, it means that car's adaptor is missing. Funny thing though, at least one H2C adaptor must be stored on every R46 consist(mandatory) but there are no adaptors on R44 consists. If an R44 breaks down, the TA had better hope that there isn't an R32/38 right behind it.
There are three types of coupler ADAPTORS(correction).
You should have been around in the 70's. There were still freight/work cars with Van Dorn couplers, MCB's, H2a or c[?], J, etc.In addition to MCB equipped loco's or "horses" some of them had one of the above or another. You might have seen a Low-V horse for example with VD, J, MCB or whatever in yellow print by the number.IIRC loco's 6 and 7 at 36 st. yard had both freight and "subway"..I think H2a couplers.
I totally disagree. I SHOULDN"T have been around in the 70s. lol.
Not all work equipment uses MCB, or haven't you ever noticed
the big "H2C" lettering on the ends of, e.g., the garbage flats?
I think OF116 has an H2C coupler.
True.
What about R142 and R142a?
The R142/142A equipment was installed with HT4-U93 couplers and CANNOT be coupled to any other car in the A division without the use of an H2C coupler adaptor (at least one adaptor must be stored underneath every R142/142A consist). The adaptor would permit coupling "iron to iron" only and would not permit the electric portions to meet up.
The only other cars in the TA that use the HT4-U93 is the R44/46 equipment.
The coupler adapter is stored under one of the passenger seats
in the "A" cars.
You just answered the question I forgot to ask when I saw a pair of redbirds on the end of a set of R-62s or 68s (forgot what I saw) in Concourse yd. (yes, the train was moving).
Check this out and maybe YOU can be operating trains for a living!!!
www.transitchicago.com/business/careers.wu
Click on "Combined Rail Operator".
I notice when I'm on the LIRR entering the East River tubes from either Penn or LIC when we enter the tunnel (when I'm listening to my walkman) the volume gets very low, and I feel a strange sensation over me. I assume this is from the pressure changes in the tunnel.
The eardrum is probably being pressed in by higher air pressure outside than in. The opposite happens when leaving the tunnel, that's when things get louder.
So how many of you experience physical sensations when entering a deep bored or river tunnel on fast moving train?
I also get these feeling when entering the 53rd or 60th street tube, but only in the 75 footers.
While on my trip to France we took the line from Marsailles to Grenoble. It was a single track line in a little RDC-esque train. There were many tunnles and as we entered each one (due to the very close clearance) the pressure on the ear drum was fairly strong (like aircraft stregnth). Placing my fingers in my ear let the pressure equalize more slowly and eliminated the pain.
When I'm tired, going into or out of a tunnel can make me fall asleep. I am referring mostly to the Market Frankford portal at 45th Street.
My former next-door neighbor was a LIRR engineer/motorman -- back in the 1960's he ran m.u.'s to/from Penn Station. He told me one day he was heading into Penn, heading down the ramp into the tunnel and at the moment he hit the tunnel, there was a blood curdling scream. He dumped the air, thinking that someone was walking the tracks and got hit, not being able to see much in the tunnel when going from bright sunlight to dark tunnel instantly.
The train stopped, and he heard more screaming -- only it was coming from the toilet right behind the control cab. Turns out some woman went in the toilet and let go of a load at the same moment the train hit the tunnel, and the force of the air in the tunnel sent the droppings right back on the tube and hit her from head to toe and covered her in her own excrement.
Now that is gross. I guess that is not a good time to go to the bathroom, as pressure changes. Sometimes I get a crampy feeling in my stomach when I enter the tunnel, but fortunately I never had to use an LIRR train bathroom. They must be really bad.
I'd also not eat or drink anything while going into the tunnel, it could cause regurgitation or gas.
I was never the kind of person to eat while in motion, it makes me kind of queezy.
Back then the bathroom was open to the track level. It wouldn't happen today.
If the bathroom was open to the track level, wouldn't that make the right-of-way really gross?
>>> If the bathroom was open to the track level, wouldn't that make the right-of-way really gross? <<<
Well, it really wasn't that bad. Commodes were not supposed to be flushed while the train was stationary or in a tunnel. Waste deposited on the roadbed while the train was traveling at speed would be dispersed, and unless there was a trainload of people with diarrhea there would not be a great amount deposited at any one time. Sunlight and insects would dispose of waste in time.
Train travel started at a time when horses were common for transportation, so there was not that much increase to the ambient odor in most places, and the populace in general had more tolerance for waste matter in the days when most fertilizer was organic, towns dumped untreated sewage into rivers, people let dogs run free and pooper scooper laws were unknown.
Tom
I used to feel it all the time in the 14th St. tunnel, both on BMT standards and R-7/9s. Riding in the first car, I knew where those spots were and would keep my mouth open as we would pass them. This equalized eardrum pressure bt keeping the Eustacean (sp) tubes open. Except I didn't have to go "HMAAAHHHH!!!" a la Felix Unger.:-)
I always end up getting a start when standing at the front window of an R-32 heading from Lex to QBP/QP, about halfway through the 60th Street tube. When the air which the train is "plungering" meets air at the bottom of the tunnel (at about 1/2way, which I imagine is the highest air-pressure point in the tunnel), it causes a muffled but strong "thump," as the force "slaps" the door back into its doorjam. It knocks me slightly backward if I am resting my forehead on my forearm (which is my method of minimizing the glare from the interior lighting while raifanning), but this is mostly due to my surprise.
I usually get an earful of wind, so I step back. It always happens when passing emergency exits.
I should have mentioned that in addition to the "thump," I feel that rush of wind too. As a matter of fact, when standing behind the front window on R-32s (and often R-33s), I often feel a constant, light, sort-of downward breeze during normal, sustained travel. This is the only hint I have as to what it must have been like to railfan using a front window that actually opens. Since I can feel air moving, though, it must mean the the cars aren't sealed well, which must add to the cost and maintenance of climate control.
In the Park Av RR tunnel, one of the windows was open on the M-type car I was on. I had tried to close it, but it wouldn't lock shut, and kept opening again. As soon as a train sped by adjacent to mine, the window instantly pulled shut and locked. I'd hate to have had my fingers in there...
That reminds me of the old "Ping-Pong" cars (P54's) ont he LIRR years ago.....you could actually open the windows!! Some people were foolish enough to open them all the way, and if the train hit a rough spot (such as a switch), that window sash would drop down like a guillotine!! I wonder how many people got arm injuries from riding with their arms resting on the windowsills....like we do driving with the car windows open.
You get that effect on DC Metro's Red Line, between Dupont Circle and the next station north (Cleveland Park, I think). There's two vent shafts, the train usually moves at a good clip; and when you hit a shaft there's an awesome "P-WOOOWWW!" sound.
Also on the Green Line going from Fort Totten towards West Hyattsville.
the following information came through on my #8 wire connection to impeachable sources:
the new sets of r-142a's will all be numbered 7211-7220 and will be stashed on various spur tracks along the #6 route... when the original set 7211-7220 breaks down, one of the new sets will be brought out in its place and will continue in service until it breaks down later in the day...
this idea came to me from my memory of watching a wrestling match years ago, that involved a team with two masked villains, managed either by lou albano or the grand wizard... both of the masked wrestlers were knocked out and were about to be counted out, when their manager brought a 3rd masked wrestler out from underneath the ring, who went on to win the bout...
i have heard that lou albano has been called in to manage the acceptance process for the new cars....
Good one!!!!
Robert
No, Captain Lou is handling the R142 (Bombardier) testing, along with Vern Gagne - Mr. FUJI is taking care of the R142A's.
:o>
u know hoo
Let's just hope FUJI spews the green mist
on cue.. unlike whattzisname Muta..
On Sat. afternoon I saw the R142A going northbound on the center track of the Dyre Ave. line pulling "into" to the Baychester Ave. station. Two minutes later, it passed me again going south. Was there training of motorman, or just some more testing going on?
mostly testing, that line on dyre was built specificaly for testing of the new cars.
Yesterday, on a day trip to NYC from Boston, I actually watched my clock while I was doing some strolling in Chinatown, and I got into the Brooklyn Bridge Station, with the R142A on the 6 waiting to depart!
I got on Car 7213, and I am actually in awe that it is nearly R110A-like, with the color panels looking similar to the R110B.
I did notice a red stripe on the Car 7220 when I got off at GCT before the GO'ed stations (6 would be skipping local stations uptown between GCT and 125), but I did not notice a red stripe on 7219, so I assume it is only on the "A" cars.
Anyway, amazingly, all the other IRT trains I took today were redbirds! (two on the 2, two on the 5 and one on the 4, a rarity!)
I did try to take the express run from 241 to E 180 on the 2, but I turned back at E 180, because of time contraints. No, I did not see the R142 run on the 2, but perhaps I was not in the right places for them.
Anyway, maybe next time....
Nick
And I don't mean "Air Jordan." I was surprised that in the discussion of the sounds and the "roar" of Chicago's subways that none of the visitors and respondents mentioned the lack of one sound they are accustomed to in other cities; namely the sounds of air brakes. In Chicago you will hear no compressors, no whoosh upon releasing brakes, no air explosion when the brake handle crosses emergency while shutting down a train.
But then again, you can hear "air" in the subways. Stand next to a wayside signal at a station when the train passes and you can hear the air operated track trip down below.
The Santa Express uses a flat car in between regular 2600 series cars to house Santa, the sleigh, the Xmas trees, etc. The flat car has air brakes. Standing next to the regular service "L" cars, its kinda neat to hear the air brakes of the flat release.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
Guess I never thought of mentioning that. IIRC the last Chicago cars that had air systems were the 4000's, the last of the old heavyweight steel cars (actually the only ones except for one other car).
I'm not sure how the [other than dynamic] braking works but IIRC there are spring loaded drum brakes that are normally kept released? I've wondered about emergency. Does the current holding them released cut off and allow the drum brakes to grab? I think I'm on the right track here but maybe the wrong train.
Yes, Chicago standardized on the PCC all-electric style with
spring-applied drum brakes.
What are the pros and cons of each braking system?
The only pro I can see for braking without air is it is one less system on a car to maintain, and not prone to cold weather problems such as condensate in the air lines and apparatus freezing.
OTOH I steel feel better having air brakes on trains, but that's a long story. To sum it up I feel having a secondary system [meaning that most braking on NYCT and other cars for example is dynamic]is safer. But that's probably a matter of opinion.
Advantages of the all-electric system: no air system to maintain!
Nothing to freeze up in the winter. A weight savings of maybe a
ton (compressor, tanks, piping, relay valves, etc.)
Disadvantages: No air available for horns (they use a whimpy
automotive-type horn) or uncoupling functions. Heavy battery
drain keeping the drum brakes released all the time. 4 or
5 steps of braking instead of nearly continuous range (but that's
just a design decision, not inherent in the all-electric
philopsophy itself)
As Mr. Harrison had mentioned hearing air release on work cars with passenger cars for horses I wonder where the work equipment gets the air from. Forgot to mention this on my first post.
I'll take a wild guess: some pass. cars notably the 24-2500's I've noticed have diagonal red stripes on the ends. But I've seen them in passenger service. Do they have compressors for work trains? I can't think of any other reason for their markings.
I will shortly be offering fifteen issues of Electriclines on eBay, but thought I would offer them first to the SubTalk community. If you email me so that I receive it before I start listing them around 7:30 PM EDT Monday night, you may purchase the issues listed below at $5 each postpaid in the US (I'll ship out of country at cost). Some I have just one copy each to offer, others I have more. My eBay listing for the issues will start at $6 plus $2.25 postage. I use a different email address for my eBay listings so I'll know if it's a SubTalker. Please, purchase only for your personal collection, not for resale.
The issues are:
May-June 1988 (has an article on the Delaware Bridge Line and one on modeling NYC EL lines in 1/4" scale)
September-October 1988 (including a lengthy article entitled "Electricity Comes To The EL")
November-December 1988 (including an article on Long Island Bi-Levels)
January-February 1989 (nothing of NYC interest)
May-June 1989 (including articles on DC, Boston, and the Queensboro Bridge Railway Co.)
May-June 1990 (an all-PCC issue, with a beautiful reproduction of Walter L. Greene's painting of PCC 1001 at Grand Army Plaza on the rear cover)
January-February 1991 (a short article with two pages of photographs on the TARS shop at 65th Street)
March-April 1991 (lengthy articles on the London Underground and on MP54s, with lots of photos)
May-June 1991 (back cover color photo of 1404, 1273, 1407 on an excursion trip at Newkirk Ave. on the Brighton Line, 30 August 1980)
September-October 1991 (CTA roster, with photos)
November-December 1991 (article on Broad Street Subway)
January-February 1992 (articles on PATH's Harrison facility, Philadelphia's trackless trolleys, and the MN/GE AC power demonstration program)
March-April 1992 (short article on Baltimore light rail under construction, long article on NJ Palisades streetcar lines, back cover color photo of MBTA cars at Ashmont in 1967)
May-June 1992 (first-generation R series cars at Corona Yard on the cover, including 9419, article on R110A and B, "Peter Witts For Broadway" [TARS])
July-August 1992 (three pages on "Boston comes to Brooklyn" for the filming of "Malcolm X")
For full contents of a particular issue, email me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just want to know the following: Which cars will the # 5 line get R142 R142A or both? And when will the 7 never get thet R62As? I purposely said NEVER cause its not happeneing they dont fit here.
They fit there. Any problems had to do with small things as the trains are both the same size. These have been corrected.
FACT: the r62/A's were tested on the
Flushing Line so yes, mister postman, they
DO fit there..
i agree. besides if you look at the R-127 which picks up garbage, the same things as the R-62, it runs up and down the line collecting garbage. picture ten of those. with four more doors and four windows. it seems to fit to me! even though the residents along the 7 will be baffled but they will get used to it.
[I purposely said NEVER cause its not happeneing they dont fit here.]
Physically, the R62/62A cars do fit, but having nothing but what are now called "redbirds" on the Flushing Line for the last 36 or so years, seeing a train of R62A cars on the Flushing Line does look like the train is out of place.
I actually thought seeing the R110A cars on the 7 line in August 1999 was unusual.
I thought I saw a r-62 on the 7 when I was young. Around 5, back in '84. It was a r-62 in revenue service. Never saw that before and most likely not again for a long time.
You definately did see an R62 on the "7" back in 1984. When the first R62 appeared, it was tested on the "2", "4" and "7" trains.
Can someone confirm this story that I have heard?
I heard that when they were testing the R62s on the 7, all the exterior guard lights got obliterated inside the tunnel and that's why they don't run R62s on the 7.
We've talked about this before. Yes, the individual door panel guard lights (most of which aren't even ON the cars anymore, having been removed years ago) got knocked off the R-62s in the Steinway Tubes when the cars were tested on the #7 line. However, it was caused by a track defect, not the cars themselves, and the defect was corrected over 15 years ago.
David
It was tested on the 2? So what happened?
Well, for one thing, I'll bet they raced down the 7th Ave. straightaway.:-)
I really do not have a concrete answer to your question. Maybe someone reading this post could possibly shed some light on this. I can only speculate that because the TA has not had a new car for the IRT lines for over 20 years, they tested the R62s on the "2", "4" and "7" trains to basically test most conditions on the IRT trackage & tunnels (East Side (4), West Side (2), both Brooklyn Branches (2 & 4) and Steinway Tunnel-Queens (7). From what I understand, the R62s were slated for service on the "4" train from the start.
don't the redbirds have the same lights as an r62? why don't they get knocked off???
Because the Redbirds are older and wiser.:-)
Does anybody know if the R68/68A were tested on the "R" line at the begining of their careers?
No. Both car classes were first introduced on the D route.
Actually,the R-68s were extensively tested in 'simulated service' on all B division routes except the eastern division.
wow! cause i remember when i was 7 i saw an R-68 running on the F line in queens in 86
and some did run onthe F for a short time...
Yum!
You couldn't wait until it was time to post a new response to something?
No, I couldn't. You couldn't resist responding?
-Hank
>>http://www.latimes.com/news/state/updates/lat_shawn000917.htm<<
Sats it well
I read the same article in the print edition of today's Times. Shawn Hubler said it well, and I could not agree more with her statements. For the record, I live in Los Angeles, do not own an automobile, and do not drive, and use the MTA, for better or worse, to travel around this city. I support the drivers totally, even though my life is severely disrupted.
The creation of MTA has been a horrible mistake. One agency (the old RTD) should run the transit system, both rail and rubber; and another, the old LACTC, to build new rail lines.
And how did that obscene monstrosity, the MTA headquarters monument, ever get built? That money should have been spent on improved transit service, bus and rail, for all transit users.
And, by the way, parenthetically, I hate the term "transit dependent", though I admit I haven't thought of a better term for people who use public transit by choice.
I agree with both posts on this!! Its the riders ( the transit dependants ) who will wind up on UNEMPLOYMENT { UI } FOOD STAMPS
GENERAL RELIEF { GA } WELFARE FOOD BANKS & social programs, etc..
Fired from thier jobs because they cannot get to work because they have no other transportation except for public transit !!
Evictions from thier rooms hotels & apartments because of thier inability to pay rent, cant buy food no money & no bus or rail to take those who are yes ""transit dependent"" thru no fault of thier own !! ( sorry hank! )
I do agree with you that i am not fond of the term either but the truth of the matter is when you do not own a private vehicle your only other option is public transit dependency!!I do not blane those who have no other alternative to public transportation either !!
I do blame the LOST ANGELES MTA for thier waste frauds top level corporate welfare abuses (not running more systems aka,the blue line & oter rail systems down VERMONT avenue etc & the CRENSHAW area of L.A. connecting the PASADENA BLUE LINE into the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE!!which stops at the UNION Red line rail station not 7th Metro!! )
the red line should have been the same type of rail systems as the blue & green making all three rail systems the same operations !!
Now they want to ROB & dis the bus drivers?? No Way!!..
So I live in Oakland not legal to drive account vision, and in this case I support the drivers, although I did not support the overpaid BART workers when they struck three years back. Frankly, I would use transit most odf the time even if I had a car. The unpleasant reality both here and there is overpriced monumentalist headquarters, useless above ground station houses for a subway, and paltry service.
But in Los Angeles & if the strike goes on for a long time the transit dependent will end up unemployed or on UI GR food stamps & welfare!!.
Where else do they have to go not having any other means to go to & from work?? Private vehicles are now out of the reach of the regular workers too high insurance gas costs upkeeps overegulation of smog controls on cars newer than 1974 !!!too costly too high unafforadble!
OUT OF THE REACH of the average worker here in lost angeles calif.!!
So if this disaster does not end soon many will wind up homeless here!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I hate the term "transit dependent", though I admit I haven't thought of a better term for people who use public transit by choice.
Transit Reliant
I like it. Thank you, Pigs, our resident wordsmith.
Almost all Los Angeles MTA transit commuters her do not own a vehicle
& are transit dependent here !!This is also true in other cities also!
only SOME here who ride METROLINK the rich folks ride !!!!
bus RED BLUE & GREEN riders need not apply !!
The article misses the whole point. It's an opinion piece, full of emotion and atmospherics.
Read some of the other articles that are linked to this one. The real issue -- the core problem -- is that the LA-MTA wants to hire part-time workers and cut back on its overtime costs by 15%. The union opposes the use of part-timers. We've seen this issue time and again, here and elsewhere. Each side has legitimate concerns. In the end, they will work them out, to no one's complete satisfaction, at the bargaining table. In the meantime, we get to read the propaganda.
they want to take out of the hide of the transit operators so both the bus & rail operators suffer & the transit dependent wind up on UI
& food stamps welfare etc.. the transit dependants suffer the most of all !!!
Is the speed of trains on the R-44s/R-46s limited because they are 75 feet, rather than 60 feet long? Does their 75 foot legnth mean that they would brake more slowly in an emergency compared to a train of 60 foot cars going at the same speed?
Also, does the legnth of the train affect braking time (e.g. a 2 car train of R-68s brakes faster than a 10 car train of R-68s) If so, it seems like car legnths could be reduced when possible to increase speeds.
The speed of a subway car is not limitied by its length. It's limited by a factor known as the balancing speed. The propulsion system is designed to propel the car an a maximum speed. For example, the M-1 which is 85' long and weighs about 126,000 lbs & 560 HP will easily do 80 MPH while the R-46 at 75' long and 89,000 Lbs and 460 HP will do 45 MPH.
As for braking, the brake rate is per car so 1 car, 2 cars or 8 cars will all stop at the same rate.
Um......the M-1's don't weigh 126,000 lbs. They weigh about 92,000 lbs. The M-*3* cars do weigh more. I thought it was closer to 110,000 lbs, but It may be 120. AFAIK, the M-2s weigh less than 130,000 lbs.
The Acela express cars weigh between 120,000 and 140,000 lbs.
Pretty sad that an MU weighs less than an unpowered car. If anything, the Acela cars should weigh about 90,000 lbs, max. They would anywhere else on the globe.
[Pretty sad that an MU weighs less than an unpowered car. If anything, the Acela cars should weigh about 90,000 lbs, max. They would anywhere else on the globe.]
The tilting mechanism must be heavy.
IIRC, the specs were beefed up, at govt request, to make them more "crash-worthy." Back to the "how safe is safe enough" and the "you're better off preventing crashes" arguments.
Um......the M-1's don't weigh 126,000 lbs. They weigh about 92,000 lbs. The M-*3* cars do weigh more. I thought it was closer to 110,000 lbs, but It may be 120. AFAIK, the M-2s weigh less than 130,000 lbs.
Where did you get the weight of the M-1s from? It's hard to believe that they weigh less than the R-68 (93,000 Lbs) I heard the # I gave but have never been able to document it.
Off the front of an M-1 at the MN open house last year :)
They list the vital stats of the various cars.
I've got the pic somewhere, I'll try to scan it. Also, the RR Age article on them back in the 60's quoted in the same ballpark. One of the features of the M-1's was that they were exceptionally light, yet still met all the crash standards of the day.
I wonder how an M-1 would have fared versus a Big Orange South Shore car or I. C. coach of that same vintage.
Who knows. They ran for years around the *P-72 and *P-75 cars and nobody cared. They've wacked cars and stuff. AFAIK, they meet all standards that were in place at the time, and the FRA apparently doesn't care much about them today, so they can't be that bad....
I never saw the aftermath of the 2 M-2s that hit back in '83, though the engineer of the rear one was killed. But that was a pretty nasty one.
Me? I don't worry. Budd knew what they were doing when designing those cars.
Actually, I have found that a shorter train will stop shorter and propel faster than a longer train simply because a shorter train's total weight is less than a longer one. Mind you I am no physics king, this observation comes just from operating.
Here's a funny story that I had heard from some of the oldtimers. When the TA first got the R44's back in the 70's, they did some speed testing over the Rockaway flats with a 4 car set with no speed governors installed. They clocked the train at 80 MPH. They also "fried" the equipment(I believe the resistors melted) as a result of the high speed.
Actually, I have found that a shorter train will stop shorter and propel faster than a longer train
simply because a shorter train's total weight is less than a longer one
If all of the cars in the train are operating properly and provide
acceleration and braking per spec, the opposite should be true.
If a single car weighing, say, 30 tons and having 460 HP can
achieive a certain top speed (on level, tangent track at, say AW3
loading) of 42 MPH, then you add another identical car, the horsepower
and the weight both double. The resulting train should operate
at the same top speed, certainly not slower. However, the drag
forces are less than doubled because the brunt of the drag is taken
up by the nose of the first car. Therefore the top speed should
be, if anything, higher.
As for the R-44 story, that's not quite it. I'll let others
jump in with the correct details if they want.
When I wrote that it would "stop shorter and propel faster", I was saying that a shorter train will come to a complete stop faster than a longer train(use less ground to stop) and will accelerate faster than a longer train. The statement was based on stopping and starting and not based on attaining top speeds.
>>> I was saying that a shorter train will come to a complete stop faster than a longer train(use less ground to stop) and will accelerate faster than a longer train. <<<
I think Jeff understood what you were saying, and his response is correct in a theoretical universe. Since each car of the train has its own propulsion, and its own brakes, in theory you could couple the cars together with paper clips because the following cars will accelerate and decelerate at the same rate as the ones before them, so there will never be any stress on the coupling.
In the real world, we all know that there are times when the couplings do have both extension and compression stresses. The more cars there are in a train, the more often you are going to have the push pull effect between cars. This results in loss of efficiency in both acceleration and braking, and therefor in the real world, the longer the train the slower the acceleration and braking.
Tom
Tom, you've got spunk........ I like spunk.
Yes, there are draft and buff forces at the couplers between cars.
Not including equipment malfunctions, the primary reason is that
the acceleration and braking rates are not closed-loop controlled.
They will be uniform if all of the cars are subject to the same
forces. If one part of the train is on a grade or a curve the forces
on it will be different from the adjacent part and the difference
will be made up in the coupler.
However, the coupler per se doesn't introduce _significant_ loss.
It's basically a spring.
In terms of the real and theoretical worlds, it's important to
distinguish hard, measurable fact from personal perception.
All that "zman" said was that shorter trains "felt" quicker, and
later he clarified that to say he specifically meant acceleration
rate and braking distance. That's just a feeling which may or may
not match what is actually, physically going on. For example, could
a reason why short trains appear to stop in a shorter distance be
that one tends to have to make a shorter station stop?
I've known other motormen who report exactly the opposite _perception_.
So you call yourself a super buff. Well everyone knows about the R44's and R46's but did you know about the R77E? You did? Well, take the official zman179 work train quiz. Simply guess the contract number(i.e.R38) with the car description and car numbers listed.
Example: Q:Electric Locomotive #EL 01 to EL10. A:R77E
/
Give yourself one point for each one that you get right(no more than one pt. per question). Most but not all of the questions have more than one contract number. All you have to do is guess one of the numbers to get the question right(I don't wanna make the quiz impossible). All info was taken from the "Subways Guide 2000" issued by the NYCTA. A dash equals through(i.e.001-008 means 001 through 008). ** means the contract number is a five digit number with no "R" in it.
Answers are below. Good luck! AND DON'T CHEAT!!
/
/
1)**Ballast regulator car numbers BR002-003
2)Crane cars #OC 150-280
3)CWR handlers (continuous welded rail train) #C/D CR 01-08
4)Dump cars #OD437-439
5)De-icers #RD340-345
6)Flat cars #OF114-227, 500-529, 601-624
7)Refuse flat cars #ORF 01-27
8)Hopper cars #OH280-297, 310-319
9)Diesel locomotives #10-11, 50-82, N1-2, OL883-909
10)Rail grinder #RG 001-024
11)Reach #OP6835, OP7629
12)Pump cars #OPC 01-03
13)Refuse collectors (motors) #EP 001-018
14)Revenue collectors #OR and IR 714-723
15)Rider cars #RD321-361
16)Signal supply cars #OOS 01, 02
17)**Tampers #TP231-234
18)Tank #OT204-206
19)Track geometry cars (TGC) OTG 1, 2 (hint: each car has a separate contract number)
20)Vacuum train (VakTrak) #VT101-105
21)Weld cars #OW301, 02
22)Work motors # 37XXX, G7XXX (i.e. 37706, G7478)
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
Answers:
1)Ballast- 01711 and 06421
2)Crane- R20, R35, R45, R53, R61, R73, R79, R102, R113
3)CWR- R17,R21, R22
4)Dump- R103
5)De-icer- R14, R21, R22
6)Flat- R20, R48, R49, R51A, R51B, R72, R101, R141
7)Refuse flat- R58
8)Hopper- R80 and R116
9)Diesel Loco- R37, R41, R43, R47, R52, R77, R120
10)Rail Gr.- R89
11)Reach- R31
12)Pump- R65
13)Refuse- R127 and R134
14)Revenue- R21 and R22
15)Rider- R14, R15, R21, R22
16)Signal- R74
17)Tampers- 37596 and 06523
18)Tank- R66
19)TGC- TG1 is R59 and TG2 is R31963
20)VakTrak- R137
21)Weld- R56
22)Work motors- R22
Summary:
22 right: You are the king exhalted ruler buff. I bow to thee.
14-21 right: Damn good! Subway buff extraordinare!
8-13 right: Not bad, a little more studying and you'll be on your way!
4-7 right: You've got a long way to go. Hit the books.
0-3 right: Start riding the bus.
All info was taken from the "Subways Guide 2000" issued by the NYCTA.
... available from where?
--Mark
The guide was recently issued to employees of the NYCTA and is not available to the general public.
Here is something interesting on the derailmant
from NY1.COM
There was a similar item in the Times a few weeks ago. The only difference is that the underlying cause - a water leak had been reported months before.
It's interesting to note that the TA's supervisory personnel are more failable than Mr. Train Dude would have us believe. Perhaps, it would be a good idea to put back some of the signal system safety features, that the TA removed in favor of supervisory operation, after all.
The TA will no doubt add a new management layer to verify that all reported problems result in a report from a supervisor. If such signal system reports are any example, then the supervisors will spend their days fabricating such reports to keep their new managers happy.
While trying to catch the train this morning into Manhattan from the Sea Cliff station, an announcement was made that the 7:26am train was delayed 30 mins and that once it arrived at the station, it was only going as far as Roslyn and then the passengers would be bused to Mineola to continue their jounrey into the city. Does anyone know why this happened as far as the equipment?
I heard that there were bridge repairs going on. The construction started 4:30 am and I think end around 10. Most likely repair work.
Oyster Bay service had been replaced by buses over the weekend so they could work on the LIE bridge (between Albertson and Roslyn).
Perhaps some of the work wasn't completed on time and impacted the AM rush.
Chuck
By the way, that bridge over the LIE on the Oyster Bay Line can be seen in the background on this Live Webcam I found. However since the cam reloads every 2 minutes and there is only about one train each hour on the average and it takes only a few seconds for the 4 tri-levels and the locomotive to go by, the chances of actually seeing a train on that bridge are rather slim!!!
The chances of seeing a train on the OB line are slim, period. I'm waiting for the LIRR to start making the weekend bussing a standard thing. I given them a year or two.
Seriously, I wish the LIRR would either electrify the line or do SOMETHING with it. How did it ever become the bastard child of the LIRR anyway?
You can blame the NIMBY's. Whenever LIRR has proposed electrification, civic groups from the snooty, narrow minded yokel filled communities along the line, like Roslyn, Sea Cliff, Glen Cove, and Oyster Bay start making a ruckus and claim that "electrification" will urbanize the area.
They fear it will bring decay. I find this especially hilarious because the areas around Roslyn, Sea Cliff, and Glen street stations are pretty decayed as it is.
And with the recent loss of my Mom, transit is my only way around and there's no way I can stay in Sea Cliff. It's too backward and removed around here. And the sick people who live here like it like that.
Well they can have it, I'm moving out!
The chances of seeing a train on the OB line are slim, period. I'm waiting for the LIRR to start making the weekend bussing a standard thing. I given them a year or two.
Seriously, I wish the LIRR would either electrify the line or do SOMETHING with it. How did it ever become the bastard child of the LIRR anyway?
And hey, seeing me on my bike on that webcam is even rarer :)
(Still warming up from a 1am 70 - 95mph ride to Hartford from NYC last night)
Gotta luv the lousy OB line!!!
They should've electrified the damn thing but you can thank the NIMBY's. I think all NIMBY's should be sent to a little isolated island and leave us sane people alone.
Last night at about 7PM I was heading to Little Italy for the fest.
I transferred to the BMT at 14th and found a D train on the Southbound express tracks just leaving the station.
About a minute later, another D arrived on the uptown express tracks.
Guys - did I miss something?? What route was that D taking?
IIRC - the change to the South side of the Manhattan Bridge has not been made yet. So what was that train doing on the Broadway BMT express tracks?
As a sanity check, I called a friend this morning who uses the D from 42+6th Ave to Dekalb and he told me the D is still on 6th Ave - not on Broadway - and he was able to take it through to Dekalb.
Can anyone explain all this.
Because of work on the Manhattan Bridge, the D ran split service this past weekend. 205 to 34th via regular route. Then 34th/Bway to Coney Island via the N/R to DeKalb, then via the Brighton.
Chuck
We then get back to the basic question----which still has not been answered. Are they going to begin work on the north side of the bridge soon? And who is going to use the southside when that reopens?
Perhaps the Brighton's D route was a trial balloon to see if a change of routes is possible. My take would be to send my Sea Beach back over the South side of the bridge, and combine it with another on the same track, like the Q or B, or use the northside for one train and the south for one. They (the TA) is going to have to come up with some answers and soon.
It would be a bad idea to reroute the D to Broadway because this will cause overcrowding on Broadway,in addition to the Q returning to Broadway next year.
There was a G.O. this weekend on the D. No trains across the Manhattan bridge. D ran in two sections. Between 34th and 205th on it's usual route, then express on Broadway from 34th to Canal, then local stops to Dekalb, then the usual route to Coney after Dekalb.
I took the "D" from 34th to Canal on Saturday. The Hippo actually did good speed on the BMT express, but we were held before Canal as they let an "N" train ahead of us, as we were waiting to get on the local tracks.
Well John, this has to be a first. I can't remember when the Sea Beach was given first dibs into a station over some other line. Maybe things are changing finally for the better. Don't go away mad, and don't go away either.
Hi Fred,
As you and I usually agree, enough is enough ! They are closing the north side to do repairs on the beams, and to replace the tracks. I heard from a motorman that they originally used the wrong grade there. When this work is completed, I really don't understand why they can't at least run the N train on the south side, and the rest on the North. If one train supposedly causes so much damage to the bridge, then why do they continue to run 3?
If the bridge were ever to be fully open to trains again, and that's a pretty big if, a logical (ha!) scenario would be to have the B and D on the north side, with the Q and N on the south side.
Steve,
This is the was it always was, and the way it should be. However, I'm just trying to point out the rediculousness of the way things have been recently. (Oh, for about 15 years or so).
JDL: You're a gentleman and a scholar. My hats off to you.
D train went through Montague tunnel.
I rode on it on Friday. I noticed that one of its larger picture windows has four panels, and none of them open. I think this is rather unusual, and wonder about the history of this car.
On another note, as I was waiting for the local on Friday at Queensboro Plaza, a 7 express pulled in, and in the CR position window, was a green sign that had the word "Express" in white letters, like the signs on NYCB express buses. This was strange, too.
Today at around 7:30 I saw a Manhattan-bound 7 train just sitting on the express track at the 46th Street station. I looked west and saw another train on the express track also stopped where it was. What was going on?
I was on one of those expresses. We stopped on the curve from Roosevelt Avenue onto Queens Boulevard for about ten minutes, crawled to the Rawson interlocking and sat there another twenty minutes. The conductor, to his credit, did notify us regularly of the cause: a sick passenger at Queensboro. For the whole twenty minutes, we were told the problem would be cleared in 'five minutes'.
Turns out this misinformation was not the conductor's fault. After we finally got in and out of the Plaza, a supervisor who had boarded our train was talking to some angry passengers. Seems they had to bring an ambulance to the scene, and there was none available on the Queens side, so one had to be taken over the (very congested) bridge.
Needless to say, everyone was very annoyed and frustrated at such a long delay, especially on a Monday morning. Many people exchanged horror stories of how in the past they had been sick, robbed, assaulted, or fell on a train and were offered no assistance by transit personnel.
This supervisor was very sympathetic and acknowledged that how much help is offered is frequently at the operator's discretion, and that in the litigous society everyone is scared to death to move the stricken passenger onto the platform for assistance. Hence the delay.
Some things [re litigation] have gone too far. The train could have been in Manhattan for available help before the ambulance could get to Queens. But rules is rules.
Well when they called for help, they didn't know that a Queens based Ambulance couldn't be there in five minutes. Problem is, the TO/CR cannot dial 911. When you use the telephone (leastwise out here) it lights up on the map your exact location. When the TA dispatcher dials 911 for you it tells them that the call is coming from Brooklyn, and then the 911 dispatcher has to guess where the train is, and what ambulance might be the closest.
Out here, they just put GPS on all of the squad cars, so now the dispatcher will know which donut shop they are at and how long they were there.
For our ambulance, we will install a fax machine in our garage, and 911 will send us a map on it, there and waiting for us by the time that we can respond to the garage.
Elias
"Out here."
Out where?
Would you believe, North Dakota
Elias
Control Center does not dial 911. They have a line that connects to both Police and Fire/EMT dispatchers. Those dispatchers are told exactly where the train is - no guesswork involved.
Those dispatchers are told exactly where the train is - no guesswork involved.
Well, I have had to follow dispatcher's directions myself, and out here were street and house numbers are a mystery known only to the 911 administrator.
Following their directions has, more than once, placed me in the wrong county. The sheriff went to every single house in the county, dialed in to 911, and confirmed the address on the computerized maps. But we still get it wrong.
6 miles south on highway 8 is a technical term used by the dispatcher, who is supposed to know that we measure from a certain intersection. Motorists who call will say 6 miles south on highway 8, but will count from the interstate. Ooops.
I once asked a subway conductor where the 900 block on McDonald Avenue was. Oooops. Not a clue. If they don't know what is outside of the train, then they cannot give directions to the train.
Elias
in support of the people involved in the los angeles transit strike, i will not use any subways or buses this week... since i really have not paid much attention to the cause of the strike, i have not decided whether i am supporting the workers or the people who rely on transit for their livelihood...
i hope to study the issues carefully, and make a decision in about 1 month...
my opponents have claimed that my boycott is really an empty gesture, as i do not use buses or subways to get around during the work week... i have to admit that their assessment of my actions is correct...
Actually, this is a rogue excuse. The truth is heypaul is really boycotting the NYCT until they remove the R-142's in favor of retro-tech R-9 cars.
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Good Man!! go ahead "heypaul"!!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
Such a boycott seems pointless:
1. The Los Angeles County MTA has nothing to do with the New York State MTA or its operating agencies.
2. The UTU (which represents LACMTA's drivers) has nothing to do with the TWU and ATU (which represent NYC Transit's and L.I.Bus's drivers).
As it is, most strikes don't benefit anybody. What could someone in New York hope to gain from a strike 3,000 miles away?
Oye vey, I think someone missed the point.
mr. marshall of the gotham bus company asks:
" What could someone in New York hope to gain from a strike 3,000 miles away? "
gain, as in money? nothing
extending the strike to new york city would help spread anarchy and disorder across the nation... in a week or two the people would be ripe for a leader like myself, who would promise to get the trains and buses running on time, no matter what the cost to personal freedom and dignity...
after leading a life of powerlessness and public ridicule, i feel my dream of being a leader of brutally repressive regime is about to be realized..
Your plans will run afoul of the PIGVOLUTION and will be smashed under the thundering feet of the Boarsheviks!!!
The pigvolution has been cancelled due to low Nielswine Ratings.
The Boarsheviks support heypaul for his bid for world leader.
thank you pigs for your support... when i assume power, you will be in charge of the ministry of corrections... you have demonstrated here your special talent in that area...
In response to the heypaul support for the people of LA and the Metro Strike, I will go to LA and stand shoulder to shoulder with my brothers in solidarity, the L.A. MTA management. We'll stand together against the overpaid LA Subway slave-janitors and the overly-subsidized transit dependent poor. All the while, we'll post extra police to prevent unauthorized digital subway photography.
And the score goes up another notch-boop boop. If you are really going to go to LA, which I think is bogus, let me know when. I have a feeling that there would be a hot time in the old town that night.
And Doug & heypaul questioned my sense of humor.
No fred, I'll be in LA in spirit only but why don't you tell me about the hot time I'm missing.
You're not missing a thing. The Metro people out here want the drivers and support personel to work hard for peanuts and the workers are having nothing of it. As far as hot, it's been hotter than a rattlesnake's ass. We need some relief. Hot and muggy.
Relief is just down the tracks. Take the Coast Starlight to Seattle. Here you can bask in our wonderful 50-60 degree days, catch some rays of sun - that is 2 to 3 rays poking through an otherwise vast expanse of clouds. Enjoy our rain practically every day.
That's like trying to kill a disease with a sugar pill. Rain get old pretty fast.
? what & who ""overly-subsidized transit dependent poor.??& where??
& you mean the UNDERPAID & OVERWORKED L.A. transit janitors-cleaners.( thats right)....finally as for my digital still camera its ben done already....
along with ""digital & analog"" L.A rail transit photography here...
I did it & got away with it ( get mad ) LOL......
? what & who ""overly-subsidized transit dependent poor.??& where??
& you mean the UNDERPAID & OVERWORKED L.A. transit janitors-cleaners.( thats right)....finally as for my digital still camera it has been done already....
along with ""digital & analog"" L.A rail transit photography here...
I did it & got away with it ( get mad ) LOL......
GO TRAIN DUDE, You Da MAN
heypaul, now that you have the supPORK of the Boarsheviks, you have my vote. ONWARD!!!
[...a leader like me, who would promise to get the trains and buses running on time no matter what the cost to personal freedom and dignity....]
Let's analyze that statement....
1. A leader LIKE you?
That's you AS leader, no?
2. Who would PROMISE?
Would you actually KEEP that promise? Would you even try?
3. Running ON TIME?
What about accidents? What about wheelchair passengers? What standards and guidelines would you use to define "on time"?
4. No matter the cost to personal freedom?
Sounds like Mussolini all over again. I think it was Winston Churchill who said something to the effect that "those who would give up essential liberty in exchange for a little security deserve neither liberty nor security."
ah... a challenge to my credibility... i will try to clarify my statement
"a leader like me, who would promise to get the trains and buses running on time no matter what the cost to personal freedom and dignity...."
your questions:
1. A leader LIKE you?
That's you AS leader, no?
yes, i will be the leader
2. Who would PROMISE?
Would you actually KEEP that promise? Would you even try?
whether i keep the promises or intend to keep them is irrelevant... once i am in power, no one will dare question me...
3. Running ON TIME?
What about accidents? What about wheelchair passengers? What standards and guidelines would you use to define "on time"?
the guidelines will be simple... if i say the trains are on time, then they are on time...
4. No matter the cost to personal freedom?
Sounds like Mussolini all over again. I think it was Winston Churchill who said something to the effect that "those who would give up essential liberty in exchange for a little security deserve neither liberty nor security."
you are a student of history...fortunately, there is no one of churchill's stature now to stand up to me... i will see to it that my appeasers will get neither liberty nor security...
heypaul,
How come you answered this one, but not the post asking you to explain 50% of the interval with a maximum of 5 minutes?
bob... i can easily clarify my own words...don't ask me to explain what the military mass transit industrial complex means with their intervals and stuff...
heypaul
c.e.o. of heypaul heavy industries
[heypaul
c.e.o. of heypaul heavy industries]
heavy heypaul (hhp),
Is the HHP-8 your corporation's eighth attempt at building a replacement for the GG1?
Bob
heypaul none GREATER than the GG-1
heypaul's first act as king supreme exalted ruler:
outlaw capital letters.
Heypaul would eliminate shift keys and caps locks on computer keyboards.:-)
you are a student of history
He is most certainly not. If he was, he would know that it was Benjamin Franklin who made that quote. And I even posted this quote two or three times.
its sad for the riders.
remember when we were just riders unknowing of strikes?
[remember when we were just riders unknowing of strikes?]
Say, since your handle is 'smoker' if you should join in the protests, wouldn't we have to call it a 'LUCKY STRIKE'?
(sorry, only the over 50 crowd would get that joke...;-)
BMTman
Doug,
Do you remember "Lucky green went to war"?
I don't.
Bob
doug took after AMTRAK paying passingers where told to go lower level to fire up. 1class and coach DC TO LA i payed 472.00 Rt me & mary was treated as 2nd class .
Hey, smoker, would you happen to be related to salaam allah?
I couldn't understand your posting....almost seems like you smoke the ganga weed while online?
BMTman
Hey ya blood clot mon. Whas wong wit smokeeng de tree na me say?
Ya ras clot! Mi no smoke de ganga. Mi smoke Cohiba's (da real kind, mon).
:-)
Rim shot!!
Lucky Strike was one of three cigarette brands with no filter, IIRC. Camel and Pall Mall were the other two.
Chesterfield, too.
I stand corrected.
Wings, Raleighes cork tip.
I lit up an unfiltered Kool (they were manufactured that way; the filter hadn't been removed) in Panama in 1962. Darn near froze my lip.
paul dontnot remember the good times?
He , who sacrifices freedom for security, deserves neither!
Jimmey Monroe 1776
A stitch in time saves nine...
?????????
You buttered your own bread, now sleep in it!
avid
James Monroe was around in 1776?
James Monroe
1758-1831
It's not that he wasn't alive, it's that he wasn't involved. He was 18!
>>> it's that he wasn't involved. He was 18! <<<
This is certainly refreshing coming from you Pigs. Are you saying that someone could not come up with any profound sayings at such a tender age?
Tom
Yes, but he could not have been a big player in the revolution.
And continuing this argument is stupid, it was Franklin who said this quote. Whoever said it was Monroe must have thought it was Madison and confused them.
[And continuing this argument is stupid, it was Franklin who said this quote. Whoever said it was Monroe must have thought it
was Madison and confused them.]
Whoever said it was Madison apparently knew him personally, because he referred to him as "Jimmey Madison".
>>> i will not use any subways or buses this week <<<
To be intellectually honest you must include any spare R-9 cabs you might encounter.
Tom
heypaul: In order to speed up your decision process, the striking transit workers and the people who depend on transit are on the same side of this issue. Working people support the strikers.
More importantly, can you help in an effort to bring new R-1 - R-9 cars to the Los Angeles subway? We also need an elevated with wood open platform gate cars. The technology for all this exists; it must be unleashed from the rail archives.
hey george... i didn't know that the riders and the workers were on the same side of the issue... what side of the issue are the railfans on?... whatever side they are on, i will support the opposite side...
as for the reappearance of r-1/9 and wooden gate cars... i attempted through an act of collective consciousness to bring back the old cars here in new york on 1-1-2000... due to a preoccupation here on the r-142's, my efforts failed... to attempt that in los angeles, where the collective consciousness is a general unconsciousness would be unconscionable...
the situation is further complicated by the latest dispatches on my p wire, which inform me that train dude is heading out to la on his motorcycle to show his support for the mta transit industrial complex which rules the world... in addition he is bringing along several colorful brochures extolling the virtues of the r-68's...
If the "mta transit industrial complex" truly runs the world, does that mean that the Holy Roman Empire no longer exists? Is Train Dude really headed this way? How this will this ever be resolved? If he is motorcycling here, warn him: Los Angeles motorists are worse than New York's.
The problem with a transit strike in LA is the roads suck so bad already, with bumper-to-bumper traffic on some roads even in non-rush hours, that the transit strike will affect traffic there for regular drivers about the same way throwing a pebble in the Pacific would increase the waves hitting Japan.
Now a nice little 6.0 earthquake right now that knocked out a few highway bridges for minor structural repairs -- that would get the populus incenced if there was no mass transit option for them while the fixes were being made.
george... when i learned that train dude was heading out to los angeles, i started readying my bicycle to pedal out there... at a conservative 40 miles per day, i figured i would arrive there in early december, just in time to avoid the nasty new york winters...now that i learned that he was kidding, i intend to return to my normal business of doing nothing... i will stayed glued to the internet and subtalk to ensure that the discourse here is kept on topic and dead serious...
I'd be hard pressed to find drivers who are less motorcycle friendly than the octogenarians and truck drivers who prowl I-95 South of Jacksonville (especially from Boca to Miami). Then again, the beltway on a bike is an experience, too.
I will join HeyPaul's boycott of all MTA (NY Metro that is) services including Bridge and Tunnel from Oct 1 to Oct 6 2000.
The Procastenators Society Has decided to mullover heypaul actions. We have tabled making any decision util 1/1/2001 or until Rudy G. has appointed a blue ribbon commettee to stick there noses into this NYCritical situation. As a person contribution I plan to swipe my unlimited card in a faregate when ever and every time I exit from the system. That will snap them to attention out in L.A.
Show your solidarity S W I P E AT E X I T S
avid
Sorry fellahs, it's been a while (about a year) since i've dropped in, so if this stuff has been posted already, my apologies....
From A K. O'Connel memo....
1-Bronx B and D Service will terminate at 34 St/6 Av
2-Brooklyn B Service may be renamed W and terminate at Astoria. Also they will run express in the peak direction from Astoria to Queensboro Plaza.
3-V will operate Continental to 2 Av Local via Queens Blvd/53rd St/6 Av
4-F via 63rd Street 24/7
5-Q will operate on the Brighton Line, Circle for local, Diamond on the Express(like the #6 Pelham line), up over the Bridge and Express to 57/7
Like I said, if this has been posted already, sorry.....
Judging from the reaction I get from co-workers who use the West End line, I'd say this plan is already DOA.
If the "W" stays express in 4th Avenue and goes over the Bridge as it currently does with the only difference being Broadway as opposed to 6th Avenue, it shouldn't be that bad. Are they planning to run this "W" express on Broadway, at least as far as 57th Street?
I guess they don't have another letter to use for the other "Q".
wayne
If the W matches closely the route of the old T, then there shouldn't be a problem. The 1986-88 plan worked fine.
I still would have opted for a T marking for the West End, but if not all cars have T signs, that may be why it was passed over. OTOH, there's always the R-44s and R-46s...
Since the "W" route will probablt be R68A, the W letter is the ost practical. The cars already have them. The T line is but a distant memory to most people, and even when it was in use, it was only briefly (1960-67).
The problem is, the W is a diamond, on weekends it will be confusing.
The diamond never bothered Q riders when they ran the R68s.
Is the W sign a diamond on the R68A? I'm not sure it is.
The R-32s have the W as well.
As well as a black-on-white (or is it the other way around?) T. Of course, their semi-legible front pixel signs can display any letter.
Yeah, I'd say it is, considering that I remember seeing T trains in October of 1967 on Saturdays along Broadway. I just missed one once at Union Square.
There will be alot of confusion when rerouting begins next year.
Why on earth are they contemplating changing the letters of the various lines anyway? It only adds to the confusion and gives me the impression that the TA is in way over their heads. A decision has to be made as who uses the Manny B, what parts of the bridge will be utilized and when it all gets under way. Anything else is extraneous to the problem at hand. Those guys would make great bureaucrats in Washington.
It's more confusing keeping the letters of the severed, overlapping/parallel routes the same when they are not connected. They did it before, and still do on weekends, but this is the first time it was planned to last for years. 2 B's and 2 D's for years just makes it look more like everything's out of whack.
Maybe it's time to just stop coddling the terminally clueless.
"Get on the damn train."
When I lived in NYC, more than once I encountered people who'd lived there all their lives, and couldn't comprehend there were subway lines in the city other than the one they took to work. "I hate express stations...there are so many other trains to have to figure out!" Excuse me? It's not like you'd end up in Anchorage or Bermuda.
AMEN to that! This entire nation expends far too much effort to "coddle the terminally clueless". Everything is geared towards them, insulting the remainder of the population.
Example: When you buy a new appliance, they have what is humorously called a "troubleshooting" section. Problem: Appliance does not function. Solution: Is it plugged in?
Bob Sklar
It probably won't be anything like the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, though.
I rode the Far Rockaway line on the LIRR last week. I noticed the 4:49 was platformed on track 7. Unusual for the Far Rockaway. Usually the Rockaway Trains are platformed on 6. Anyway but I did notice that we weren't platformed on 4 like during the Wrong Rail G.O. I noticed we went on the Right side of the Tracks! So The LE even got excited, and he put that M-3 into Parallel and he started Flying at a average speed of 55-60. It was good to be on a EMU going that fast once again!
The transit strike here did not seem to add more vehicles to the los angeles county highways & roads
More taxi usage however , metrolink amtrak DASH buses & all others continue to run .....
There is a ""heat wave"" hitting the southern california areas
The transit operatoiors & workers continue to BLOCK all worksites so that SCAB operators cant get through !!
No concern by the media of those who are suffering the most here!
the sufferering by the transit dependents only seems to get worse!!
With the buses gone its easier to drive around !!! ???
your local & live on the scene reporter ( salaamallah ) out .....
"No concern by the media". I don't care about the media's "concern". Their job is to accurately report the news. I, for one, would like to see some genuine concern from the MTA board and its, CEO, Julian Burke. Mayor Richard Riordan, MTA Chair Yvonne Brathwaite Burke, and anti-rail board member Zev Yaroslavsky, and the rest of those parasite politicians should be sentenced to ride the Vermont Avenue bus in perpetuity for their sins against the tax-paying, transit riders of Los Angeles. 350 million dollars spent for their obscene marble monument, Gateway Center. That money would buy a lot of improvements in transit service.
I know this sounds like ranting, but I walked to work today and back home.
Salaam, if you can drive around, please think of offering any neighbor a ride to the doctor's, if that person has no other way of getting there.
I AM SOOOOOOOO GLAD THAT I DO NOT LIVE IN THAT HELL HOLE CALLED LOS ANGELES ANYMORE!!!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!!
{ LOL } QUESTION TO Mr. aka HELL HOLE !! what do you call home now??
NYC dude. It's also a hell hole but it's a hell hole where they don't look down at you if you use public transport. Want a personal life? If you've got a crappy car it's tough to get a date. No car? You're up s**ts creek without a paddle. Face it, chicks there don't dig the bus. Out there, I couldn't buy a date because I didn't have a car. Here, everyone rides the subways and buses so there is no stigma attached to you right off the bat. And because of that, I have no problem getting phone numbers. I also don't have to ride the bus for 1-2 hours to get somewhere anymore.
Oh, and do I have to mention things like jaywalking tickets, smog, 80 degree Christmases(those are so damn depressing. It's supposed to be COLD on Christmas), earthquakes and the LAPD(those sadists)? They make our cops look like pussycats. Trust me, that's saying A LOT!
There is only two things that I miss about LA.
1)Burgers. I've got to admit, LA makes the best burgers in the world.
2)The cheap ice cream cones at Thrifty.
The negatives just far outweigh the positives. So while you guys get washed away again this winter by those mudslides and enough rain to make you want to build an ark, I'll freeze my tail off fighting zero degree wind chills. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
(cheap shot coming)
Oh and by the way, we haven't had a city transit strike in 20 years.
OOF! THAT WAS BELOW THE BELT I MUST SAY!
>>> The cheap ice cream cones at Thrifty <<<
Now you have only one thing to miss. Thrifty Drug Stores are now named "Rite-Aid" and a single scoop ice cream cone now costs about 85 cents.
Tom
you are right there!! this rite aid came in with thier base of operations in pennsylvania near philly somewhere !!
BUT THE ICE CREAM REMAINS !!!
Thrifty ice cream is still the same but at the new RIGHT AID STORES..
Thrifty is gone, IN & OUT & Tommys burgers & many more out here is still the best ( fattening too!) @ the chili cheese burger!!
As for EARTHQUAKES I will pick them over a TORNADO or HURRICANE or
FLOOD or BLIZZARD. you dont have to worry about mudslides if you live in the right areas ( not the hills with BRUSHFIRES )
Now MAYBE out there you make a better PIZZA !!& Steak Sandwiches etc..
SMOG?? Houston Texas now is the leader in SMOG now !!!!
The women out here judge you on your money clothes & car thats still true !!! Guys have it tough out here !!
I have got to stop eating all of this FATTENING foods out here!!!
the transit strike is on !!!!!!!!!
it is assumed that the TA did not think about the environment when creating the metrocard. because they are plastic, they aren't biodegradable and knowing people in nyc, when one or a few owned by a person is out of money or expired, they end up chucking them in the train tracks slipping them between seats chucking them in home garbage cans and chucking them in the wrong places. i have an innnovative idea though. why don't the TA do what the supermarkets do when customers redeem their cans and bottles. give 5 cents or 10 cents for each metrocard refeemed, get vouchers for them and pick up there money at token booths. or they can use the balance thats left fromthe redeemed cards to get a new card with money on it. the TA should incorporate that idea in their metrocard vending machines, however i strongly think my idea wouldn't work. what do you guys n' gals think?
Why not having turnstiles and fareboxes keep the card when the last possible transfer is used and the balance is 0.00. Then, when Token Clerks "pull the wheels" they not only collect tokens, but Metrocards, and either send them somewhere to be melted down and made into new cards, or wipe them clean (physically and electronically) and reuse them.
Also, if someone attempts to use an empty card, it will be captured. Cards encoded "Metrocard Special" (Like mine, which expires in 12 days) will be recognized as collectibles and returned to the user.
This idea was specifically rejected when the TA did its market
research prior to introducing AFC. New Yorkers in the study
expressed a high amount of discomfort at the idea of the machine
being able to "swallow" their card. It also means that in the
event of a dispute, you have no evidence to send back to Livingston
St.
But what about buses? The bus farebox "eats" your card in order to read it. Are New Yorkers discomforted by that? Or does the presence of a driver allay any fear?
As a daily metrocard user (and as a result of an unfortunate brush with The Law some months ago resulting from a turnstile invalidating my card after my having swiped it several times with no success until the machine read it "JUST USED," even though not admitting me, at which point I took matters into my own hands and admitted myself anyway, because I had an unlimited ride card, which means I HAD INDEED PAID MY FARE), I have come to the conclusion that bus type fare collection devices ought to be used on subway turnstiles instead of the "swipe" devices currently in use. I imagine, though I am not certain, that a study concluded that swiping is faster than dipping. But this is only true when the machine, and the person doing the swiping, are working perfectly. I bet if you calculated the amount of time spent by subway patrons dealing with "PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN" and "PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE," etc., and compared that to the amount of time it takes a bus-style farebox to read a metrocard, swiping would not result in any added fare-collection speed.
Take, for example, our nation's capital. Washingtonians (& Virginians and Marylanders) seem to have no trouble with sending their farecards through the turnstile for admittance. In fact, they send it through in order to exit too. Maybe riders groups feared that dip-style fare collection might lead to distance-based fares in the NYC Subway and put the kibosh on the idea.
I attended the US Open Tennis tournament on 2 occasions. For reentry into the system at Willets Point, the TA opens the gate leading to the Tennis Center on the south side of the station and uses detached bus fareboxes to collect fares at that gate. The location is only used once a year, so it's not a normal fare control area. It took more time to enter the system, but this was because there were only 2 or 3 fareboxes, and because such a large group left the Tennis Center at once, BUT NOT BECAUSE of dipping time.
I can't speak for other New Yorkers, but my own experience with a $60 fine, while teaching me to have a little patience, also leads me to the conclusion that swiping devices were the wrong way to go. If I hadn't explained to the cops what had happened in such a calm and reasoned manner, Giuliani's "Zero Tolerance" policy could have landed me in jail, even though I was not by any means guilty of any crime, because "fare evasion" is NOT what I did.
BTW, does anyone know whether my paying the fine, by which I admitted "guilt," results in my having "a record." As an always law-abiding citizen, I have no idea how this works.
PATH has the dip system and it works just fine every morning with out delays...
A fare evasion conviction is considered only a "violation". While it does go on your record, you have nothing to worry about.
And I agree. Swiping is stupid. Leave it to the brainiacs at Livingston St. to come up with something as moronic as this.
Fare evasion is a violation, like littering or jaywalking.
I don't use time-based farecards because they are unfair to
nightowls. If you buy a one-day pass and first use it at 10:00PM
it is only giving you 2:18 of usage. False advertising. They
should call it a "same calendar day pass". Same thing with a weekly
or monthly, though the percentage lost is less.
The big problem with the swipe cards is DIRT (Dennis Riga, where
are you???). Every time a card is swiped a little more dirt
and a little more ferric oxide (or is it ferrous oxide?) gets
deposited on the read/write heads. The subway turnstiles, especially
at busy stations, take many, many more swipes per hour than any
bus stile or the things in PATH, BART and WMATA, which carry far
fewer passengers than NYCT. I suspect dip readers in the subways
would also be subject to frequent dirt-related failures.
Some sort of periodic self-cleaning mechanism would be a good retrofit.
I assure you, Station Agents do clean the turnstiles using a cleaning cartd saturated with alcohol and other head lceaning chemicals. Every shift change we have to clean the wheels. Many times, at busy stations we also do this when we have our lunch break.
part of the problem is people refusing to belive their card is emptu or just used. At many stations, the booth is close enough for us to make out the text on the tunstiles. I then ask the customer (via booth microphone) to "Come to the window. Please let me check your card. AFter five more minutes they may finally come to the window and when I check their card it is indeed just used or insufficient fare.
The homeless are also bad about this-- they take cards from the floor (or break open the disposal bin), or the bin may have already been broken into and is unlocked. I see them checking 15-20 or more cards and I tell them " they are all empty".
Well, I assure you, my card was not empty! I used it the next day.
That night, however, the cops took it to the station agent after I explained that I had swiped it several times until it read "JUST USED." The station agent helped me not a bit, and they issued me a summons on the spot. I was not interested in making a fuss, so I refrained from making scene and asking what the station agent's "text" read. As an upright citizen, I was not about to jeopardize myself by pissing-off the cops by asking questions. I swallowed my pride and took the citation and paid it off. What would the station agent's "text" have read anyway? Here was the sequence, which occurred at the one turnstile:
"PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN"
"PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN"
"PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN"
"PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN THIS TURNSTILE"
"JUST USED"
At the time, I was certain the station agent would have told me to pay again, and it was late, and I was tired, and I just wanted to get home. I am not a lawbreaker. I was pissed at the machine, so I lost my patience and jumped the turnstile. There were probably a thousand kids who meant to jump it that day who should have been given tickets...but I paid!
I have had enough experience the "service" industry in New York City to know that the general attitude is "prove it or lose it." You name it: telephone, cable, etc. I pay all of my bills on time. I've paid when I've been screwed by the company too, just because I'm interested in protecting my credit rating. Sh*t, I want to maybe buy a house someday, and I'm young, and can't afford to find a lawyer to settle this small claim and that small claim. As a result, I, a member of the "middle class," have a credit report that is spotless, but not without swallowing my pride on several occasions. And still, I run into piss-poor service at every turn.
I know I'm on a tirade here, but I'm mad! I do everything right and get s**t-on right and left.
Subway-buff, I've met you. I respect you. I've read your contributions to SubTalk and to this site. If you were the token-booth clerk that night, what would you have done?
Also, SubTalkers forgive me, please. I know this may not be the venue to vent this. I may even abandon the site for a while, because I'm a bit tentative about having gone-off here. I'm not trying to accuse anyone. I just feel like, perhaps, I have such bad luck when it comes to getting decent treatment...
Respectfully,
Keystone Pete
Hang in there, Pete. At least your tirade is on topic.
Bob
You name it: telephone, cable, etc. I pay all of my bills on time ... As a result, I, a member of the "middle class," have a credit report that is spotless
Heh heh, not to burst your bubble or anything, but nowadays the fact that you always pay your bills on time does not necessarily mean that you have a perfect credit rating. Most would-be lenders today use various "credit scoring" models to predict your creditworthiness. Believe it or not, under some of these models you can be penalized for not owing enough money! That's right, if you're the type who keeps your credit card balances to a minimum, lenders don't like you - by avoiding large balances, you deprive them of interest income. Of course, if you have what these scoring models deem too much debt, you'll also get a poor rating. And it goes without saying that the formulas used to compute credit scores are deep dark secrets. How does one win? Easy, you can't.
You know what gets me? Those so-called pre-approved card offers. I sent one in once, just to see what would happen, and was turned down for having TOO MUCH available credit. You're right - you can't win. I figure - screw 'em. Nowadays, must of the pre-approved offers I get wind up going through the shredder.
I think some of these institutions have seen the national debt I've run up with my train purchases.:-)
You know what gets me? Those so-called pre-approved card offers. I sent one in once, just to see what would happen, and was turned down for having TOO MUCH available credit. You're right - you can't win. I figure - screw 'em. Nowadays, must of the pre-approved offers I get wind up going through the shredder.
As you saw, there is no guarantee that you'll actually be accepted. All the "pre-approved" means is that a card issuer paid one of the three nationwide credit bureaus for a list - probably containing tens of thousands of names - of people whose credit scores fall within a defined range. Some of the people on the list will have somewhat different profiles than others notwithstanding their similar scores. These differences can, in turn, spell the difference between acceptance or rejection.
For instance, let's say that Discover Card pays Trans Union for a list of 25,000 people with credit scores around 675 (a reasonably good if not outstanding level). John Smith and Mary Jones are two of the people on the list. John had several 30-day-late credit card payments within the past 18 months, while Mary had an account written off as uncollectable three years ago but has no other credit problems. John and Mary are equal in other respects. Discover probably will issue John a card but is certain to reject Mary. That's because a charge-off is seen as far worse than multiple late payments, even though the overall scores are the same.
Yeah, especially since they can make money off you for a late payment. $29 is the legal maximum in NY.
-Hank
One other thing I always do is read the fine print, especially with all those teaser offers of a low initial APR, not to mention annual fees. A good example was a card I was offered THREE TIMES, no less. It trumpeted low, low minimum monthly payments, which sounds good if you're on a tight budget. Then I saw the APR - 21.9%!!! No, thank you.
Needless to say, my shredder gets a good workout. No need to dig out the old scissors anymore.
Around 1970 I applied for a Discover card in the Camden Sears store. It eventually arrived with my first name misspelled, so I NEVER used it. To this day, not a week goes by without my receiving unsolicited credit applications with that misspelling, even though I moved in 1976.
ChooChoo, Bob?
-Hank :)
LOL.
Actually we had a bus driver that called himself that ... he loved trolleys & buses with stick shifts (drove the last one we had)
Mr t__:^)
Mee too, Mr. t_:^) Never met an automatic bus I liked. We still have a few sticks at Seashore, thank goodness.
When I was very young and watching subway trolley operators "notch up," I thought they were shifting gears too. In fact when I teach new operators at Seashore, that's one of the analogies that I use, though I equate it more to shifting a bicycle, since they're both "clutchless."
Owensboro, Kentucky, had ancient Ford city buses in 1960 with stick shift transmissions, but their clutches slipped so badly they sounded like slushomatics.
Our shuttlebuses at UConn had automatics. One went on the fritz once, slipping and jerking as it tried to upshift and downshift. One of the drivers had a lot of inside dope to share, and he told me by the time they dropped the pan on that particular tranny, it was so chewed up the parts literally fell right out.
I love to bring a little kid over to the K Controller at Shoreline's museum area and notch it up, then swing it all the way back as I explain. Then on the car I ask if they were paying attention & see me doing the same thing again.
I particularly like the "T" word, i.e transition.
Mr t__:^)
I know that Sears store. Its on Adrimal Wilson Blvd, closed though.
I got declined for one of those pre-aproved cards once. It was because I had NO credit history at that point. I got a student card and after some payments I got approved for an Amex w/ like free airline tickets. My family is a credit card companies' worst nightmare. We have NEVER PAID A SINGLE CENT OF FEE OR INTEREST. When they started offering rewards points we started paying to gas with the cc and we got enough for a $300 mountain bike. The companies have raised and raided our limit hoping we would over spend. We tried to put my college tuition on the credit card , but they said we couldn't. 32,000 reward point would have been sweet.
and can't afford to find a lawyer to settle this small claim and that small claim.
Who says you need a lawyer? You go down to the equilivent of traffic court and plead your case. If anyone else is in this situation you have the citing officer SIGN your unlimited metrocard (or mark it in some other way) you then go to a token booth the next day and have a token agent verify in writing that your card is an umlimited card good b/t the dates in question. It also helps to have a friend witness you use the marked card the next day. You then go down to court and present your evidence. You'll probably be found not guilty because you did not evade the fare, you obviously paid.
Doesn't work like that Mike. If you jump the turnstile for ANY reason, you will be summonsed and you will have a 100% chance of being convicted whether you had a defective metrocard or not. The TA nor the city gives a damn.
Another wonderful plan to raise extra cash for the city on behalf of Hitler Giuliani.
On what charge? Paying for a subway ride?
He jumped the turnstile in fustration.
Mr t__:^)
I am familiar with his tale of suffering at the hands of blind justice
Swipe and dodge is what I do, to get that "I GOT EVEN or I GOT YOU BACK " feeling!
avid
I would say that a lot of the trouble with unlimited MCs is dirty swipe readers.
I've used the "readers" in the stations to check on a bunch of cards I had & found after a while I started getting errors. Does that mean that the turnstile swipers get dirty quickly ?????
What is the MTBS (swipes) ????
The farebox reader will go a few days with out a problem, that is unless someone jams a realy dirty card in their or the driver uses it as an ash tray.
I work with the shop that overhauls both, they do a reasonabally good job, so it's not the maint. on the equip.
As I said yesterday, have a token or value card in you pocket just in case. Will make your commute less stressful.
Mr t__:^)
Another wonderful plan to raise extra cash for the city on behalf of Hitler Giuliani.
And we thought Salaam was bad for likening the LA Sheriff to the Gestapo.
You're attitude isn't just the attitude of the common sense free liberals that brought us Mayor Dinky, it's one of total ignorance for the past and callous indifference to real suffering.
I'm sure you'd just LOVE actually living in Nazi Germany, then you'd understand what fascism is. You'd pray for Rudy.
Don't feel bad Pete. As a TA worker, I can tell you with 100% certainty that token clerks are the most miserable people in the world. They even give fellow transit workers the third degree.
Best thing that I can tell you is that in the future if you have the same thing happen again, even though you paid for an unlimited metrocard, pay another $1.50. if you're in a hurry. Because as the law stands now, if you enter the subway without the turnstile accepting your fare, you will be summonsed regardless if you have an unlimited metrocard or not. And if you're really unlucky and get caught up in a sweep, you'll be automatically arrested and have to go through the "system" and I don't mean transit system either.
If you ever see that token clerk again, piss him or her off by buying a $3.00 metrocard. IN NICKELS. If he/she refuses to take it, report him/her and the clerk will be a lock to get a suspension(the TA always takes the word of a passenger over an hourly employee-in all departments). At least one way or the other, it'll give you a little satisfaction .
I would have asked you " Let me check your card."
Sometimes a card might be damaged and when we check it our computer may tell us there is a problem. We are not allowed to fix unlimited cards, but if I were there and you let me check your card and I saw it was unlimited AND you had noone sharing your card, I'd have let you in.
[... so I lost my patience and jumped the turnstile ...]
Suggestion, carry a second MC with some value on it, e.g. 1.50 or more. You can carry it for a year, then turn it in & they'll move the money to a new card, so it's like the $10 you have hidden for the mugger (they get real angry if you don't have any money on you).
I assume you were doing ALL those swipes in the same turnstile, because going to the adjacient turnstile will result in the "just used" reply.
[I may even abandon the site for a while, because I'm a bit tentative about having gone-off here.]
Yes, but you aren't throwing rocks at any of us, just a little venting of your anger ... as long as you don't do it every day, like some here, I for one don't mind, so stay the course.
Mr t__:^)
I to have a 30-day unlimited card. When ever the system is not working to my high exacting standards, or I don't get a seat, or it's hot, or there was a sunrise that morning, What I do is
WHEN I EXIT , I GO TO A TURNSTILE AND SWIPE IT.... AND GIVE SOMEONE A FREE RIDE.
It's against the law to sell a ride, but its okay to give it away!
I think?
Any legal eagles out there know about giving rides?
avid
To be on the safe side, I would stop doing that. The last thing you need is to get a hard nosed cop who is trying to meet a quota on your behind just because you're being "nice".
Not swiping with an intented recepient. Just swipeing and walking away, leaving a GREEN ARROW! Most often in a very uncrowded station, ealry in the A.M. Iron maidens are real nice and usually unguarded!
avid
>>> It's against the law to sell a ride, but its okay to give it away!
I think? <<<
No, it is illegal to give away rides. Any time based fare card provides a license for the cardholder to ride on the system during the valid time period. When you swipe to allow another person to ride, but do not give that person the card, you are exceeding the license. In theory there should never be more than one person per time based card riding the system at one time, and that person should have the card with him/her.
Tom
Subject to applicable tarriffs and conditions of use.
Is written on the reverse side of the card. Where are such tariffs and conditions published? Should the be in plane view at each and every faregate? I have seen busdrivers and others seek out riders to assist travelers without exact change , token or card. Is this then conspirousey(spelling) . If upon exiting you swipe the card and not enter and someone else does , then only one person is riding that card. I like to think of it as positive passive resistance to "THE SYSTEM" big and small government rules and regs. I can change my mind about going through the faregate and walking away. This is very close to the perfect crime.
Wait til the Kingfish Hears about this! The avid reader rides again!
I swipe to see the green arrow. I see it . I walk away. I have no person in mind to give it to. If some one comes along, sees it and enters, is he /she the guilty party? This started as a random act of kindness, but some one should be fined, jailed and otherwise suffer through the "SYSTEM"
>>> I swipe to see the green arrow. I see it . I walk away. I have no person in mind to give it to. If some one comes along, sees it and enters, is he /she the guilty party? This started as a random act of kindness, <<<
If you look at it from the ethical point of view, your "random act of kindness" is assisting in theft of service. Your card is meant for your use. The price of the card is predicated on the estimated number of times it will be used during its valid life. When you swipe and walk away, you set up the TA to lose a fare from the stranger who would have had to pay if you had not swiped your card.
Compare that to the following: If you discovered there was a position on the side of a turnstile that you could place a magnet, and thereafter, the green arrow would stay on and everyone entering the station could use that turnstile without paying, if you placed a magnet on the turnstile would it be just a random act of kindness? If this seems like an improper act, compare it to swiping your card on exiting, and you will see that it the same thing, only the number of fares that will be lost are different.
On the other side, anyone entering the station who uses a turnstile which already has a green arrow on it, without paying a fare is technically engaged in theft of service. It matters not whether the green arrow is there because the turnstile is malfunctioning and therefore allowing anyone to enter without paying, or someone has swiped a card and it will allow only one person to enter, if the person entering is supposed to pay a fare and does not pay it, he is guilty of theft of service.
Tom
P.S. Pointing out that no one ever gets arrested for this sort of thing does not make it any less illegal, it is just too petty a thing for the authorities to bother with.
[Turnstiles with green arrow staying on]
If we see a turnstile that allows people in for free without paying we will immediately close the turnstile(it will show the red symbol) andf call fpr repair.
As an upright citizen, I was not about to jeopardize myself
by pissing-off the cops by asking questions.
This attitude is all too common today. I don't really want to criticize, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor, but let us not forget this: This nation was founded by "upright citizens" who took enormous risks to their own safety in order to change what they saw as a grave injustice (arbitrary rule by England). If we are to remain a free nation, standing up for one's rights must again be seen as something respectable, rather than something only "troublemakers" do.
But this is only true when the machine, and the person doing the swiping, are working perfectly.
Judging from comments both here and on Usenet, I appear to be in the minority, but ... except for the first month or two that I ever used Metrocards, I've had very, very few problems swiping at turnstiles. I first started using Metrocards when the free transfers went into effect. I remember then I would rarely get in on the first swipe, and it was not unusual for me to have to swipe many times at a turnstile ("swipe again at this turnstile") before I could get in. There was a big fuss in the media about this, as lots of people started using Metrocards around the same time and encountered the same problems.
These days it's extremely rare for me to have to swipe repeatedly like that, and the overwhelming majority of the time I get in on my first swipe. Granted, I don't use the subway for daily commuting-- I total maybe 8 subway rides over a week. Still, I have to swipe more than once maybe only once a month. I don't know if it's because of better mainteance or what, but anyway, my current experience is that the Metrocard works very well.
I also have a PATH QuickCard, which I find kind of annoying in comparison, mostly because it's a flimsy piece of paper that I have be more careful with.
Of course, now that I've said this, I'm sure I'm going to have bad luck with my Metrocard for weeks to come. :-)
I've been a proponent of the swipe system because it's much easier once one gets the hang of it.
More recently, I've had a number of swiping problems (going down though). I blame it on not riding the subway during the summer (longest period not riding since 1996). Before that I had to use the same card for 5 months. It would get scratched up, worn and the stripe was noticeably dirty, and I still had problems. Now when I change my card at the slightest sign of wear, I can't swipe well.
This could be a rational reason to use a token, at least for some people who even have more problems swiping.
I have to admit I haven't had to pay any fares since I graduated the Police Academy 18 years ago in 1982 but one day getting into the subway with my wife (who carries a Metrocard for LI Bus) she kept on swiping with nothing happening. The token clerk made an unintelligible announcement and finally I yelled, "buy a token!!!" which she did.
As an aside, I'm still waiting for the day my EZ Pass doesn't work and I'm embarressly stuck in a toll booth behind the gate!!!
As an aside, I'm still waiting for the day my EZ Pass doesn't work and I'm embarressly stuck in a toll booth behind the gate!!!
Happened to me, the tag was defective.
Mark
DID THEY TAKE THE TAG AND CHARGE YOU $10?
DID THEY TAKE THE TAG AND CHARGE YOU $10?
No, on all four trips, they asked me to take down the tag so that they could write down its number and let me through. It was properly mounted, just defective, so there was no way I would have paid a penalty. After the fourth time, I called them up and requested a new tag. I would have done it after the first round trip, but the tolltaker said that entire plaza was having trouble that day. The charges didn't appear until the next billing cycle.
Mark
It annoys the crap out of me the way my account is being handled. In 2 months, I have yet to recieve a statement. I am charged $25 twice a week. They've never 'averaged' my account. Top this off with trips on the GSP that take 4 days to 2 weeks to post to my account, and then, not all the transactions post. I took a trip to Great Adventure, went through Raritan, Asbury Park, and Belmar-Wall in each direction. Asbury Park has only shown up Southbound. 2 weeks ago I got off at Bloomfield, that posted a week later. I'm still waiting to see 2 charges from the Atlantic City Expressway in August!
-Hank
Another reason for a token is to pay for a Command Express bus with a student Metrocard. I would do that on the rare occassion I would ride the BM1 back when I had a student card.
Last fall, I noticed I usually got through on the first swipe as well, whereas the year before, I often had to swipe twice or more.
[... I have come to the conclusion that bus type fare collection
devices ought to be used on subway turnstiles instead of the "swipe" devices currently in use. I imagine, though I am not certain, that a study concluded that swiping is faster than dipping ...]
You have come to the same conclusion as the rocket scientist who specified turnstile swipes.
BTW, The dip machines get dirty too ... it's one of the main jobs that my crew does every day ... that and replacing the o-rings that if they pop will eat your card ...yum yum
Mr t__:^)
When we are still using stored value ticket(just like Metrocard), the machine simply swallow the ticket when it is the last time to use(no wonder how much is inside, but you still can take the last ride). As Hong Kong calculates the fare by distance, this consession method made people to use the last ride by calculating hoe to use the last ride in a fully utilized way, i.e. the less cost for longer distance. This consession cannot be used in NYC as MTA use fixed-day ticket system, but they can still do that.
Henry, your idea is good but there are problems:
1- We have no way of "wiping them clean".
2- The turnstiles would have to be modified to allow a dip rather than swipe (such as is done with PATH). I see problems with people jamming the dip or with them complaining that their card was eaten by the turnstile in error.
3- By having us collect the used cards, it adds more duties to our list of duties, and with the loss of assists and side windows (a second seller in a booth), will lead to even more complaints.
Yesterday I worked at a very busy station-- I had to wait on 1-2 customers then do some money counting (Using an electric currency counter)recording the total and strapping the bills (putting the bills into a bill wrapper) , deposit prep, report prep, etc. for 1-2 minutes then back to customers for another 1-3 customers then back to paperwork. My required paperwork was completed 45 minutes late but still before my relief came. There are booths much busier than the one I worked.
Path seems to do it fine, but if the machine steals the card no one has to deal with the complaints (except the guy on the other end of the phone, who probably instructs the people to jump it).
My card has never been misread on PATH, nor has it been captured other than when empty. I've never seen them clean the machines either, but I bet they simply stick a cleaning card in the slot the same way as a fare card, and probably puts it with all the captured farecards for throwing out later.
On the buses the customers frequently give their liquaded cards to the driver who slips them into the "Capture Bid". Overnight they get dumped.
My idea would be for the TA Station Agent & MVM to provide one free ride if you recharged your value card, now you would probally need to add $30 (so you would actually get two free rides). Unlimited would be harder, but lets say a for a weekly you get a 8th day OR a Fun Pass
Lastly they wouldn't punish you for a card that no longer works, i.e. you turn in a card & get your old one back OR a new one if yours is NG or beyond it's "expiration date".
Mr t__:^)
MVMs always give you your card back, there's no place for it to keep them!
What ever happened to the plan for Metrocard Refill Machines (credit and debit card only) inside the paid area?
The TA ordered them, so they are coming.
Mr t__:^)
Well, they could make a place inside those big monsters !
Just like the bus farebox is designed to always return your MetroCard, but then there is a Capture Bin where they sometimes end up.
Mr t__:^)
Talk about a non issue. Have you checked eBay lately for the market in Metrocards? Go to Collectibles/Transportation/Subway. You might be astounded at the market in Metrocards. You might as well say that credit cards, being made of plastic, are a blight on the environment. Think a bit about automobiles and their exhaust. THAT, my friend, is pollution.
KHI does have a point though. The fact that the machines do not take the card after used last was poor planning on the part of the NYCTA.
Well, they wanted to create a market for 'collector's cards' and such, so I guess they had to give them back. It should be a simple software adjustment to collect the card after the last fare on it, and it could even recognize a 'comerative card' and give it back after the last use.
Elias
[Well, they wanted to create a market for 'collector's cards'
and such ...]
I don't think any of the suits in the MTA (of nyc) spent even one minute thinking about that. Their goal was to eliminate the token and those annoying folks who expect someone to be inside the Token Booth.
The master plan is to eliminate all employees from the trains & stations, except for the cleaning crew (they'll have to work on that problem too) and a occasional "Station Agent" who might be walking around. Then the staff can run the railroad from the safety & comfort of all those cubicles. Pardon me if I think their goal stinks.
Mr t__:^)
"I don't think any of the suits in the MTA (of nyc) spent even one minute thinking about that. Their goal was to eliminate the token and those annoying folks who expect someone to be inside the Token Booth."
Some people keep repeating this like it's Revealed Truth. But there's no evidence that the token clerks will be dismissed or even phased out just because they aren't handling money anymore.
CTA went to a Transit Card system, completely phasing out tokens and taking all money-handling duties away from the station agents. And the station agents have NOT been eliminated. They are now "customer assistants" and can leave the booth since there's no money, tokens, transfers, or Transit Cards in the booth to be protected. And while the CTA abolished the position of conductor and is getting rid of the old conductors by sheer attrition, they aren't getting rid of the customer assistants, IIRC. The savings from getting rid of conductors is in cutting the pay-roll, but the savings from making station agents into customer assistants is from reducing the opportunity for accidental (miscounts) or intentional (embezzlement) loss of revenue.
And the Washington subway system has NEVER had station agents handling money -- vending machines and farecards from Day One -- yet every station has had one or more on-duty station agents.
John, you are correct in fact, but perhaps not in spirit. Tokenslike other minted metal have a long lifespan. Paper mag stripe tickets such as BART , DC etc use are relatively recyclable. The bulkier , higher plastic content CTA andNYC cards are less so. In turn, BART tickets other than joint use passes are retained by the fare gate on last use thus headed for recycling rather than the land fill. Side note, in its infinite wisdom, AC Transit in Oakland has just implemented a new mag stripe bus only transfer complete with multicolor printing. This to replace the vastly cheaper newsprint transfers we all are familiar with. A nickel well spent? I think not.
Metrocards are also recycleable, if the people who used them would put them where they belong. But hey, the same person who throws a used metrocard on the tracks will do the same with his soda bottle, newspaper, orange rind, etc. It's a matter of changing society. Why change a system that works and add a maintainence headache to it, when all that's needed is public whippings of litterers? They could also sell tickets to these, and thus turn a quick buck.
THe reasons for the different farecards between systems are obvious. BART and WMATA use distance-based fares, and print the remaining value of the farecard on its face. Doing this requires a 'dip' type of system.
As for the mag-stripe transfers, the TA got them several years ago, ridding themselves of the old newsprint transfers. You want to to 'ecologically freindly?' The magstripe transfers are now issued on-demand only, and are not preprinted, colorized, and valid for only a single day, after which the remaining transfers are useless. You only wind up disposing of used transfers, not unused ones, thus saving a bundle of trees, not to mention printing costs.
-Hank
[As for the mag-stripe transfers, the TA got them several years ago, ridding themselves of the old newsprint transfers. You want to to 'ecologically freindly?' The magstripe transfers are now issued
on-demand only, and are not preprinted, colorized, and valid for only a single day, after which the remaining transfers are useless. You only wind up disposing of used transfers, not unused ones, thus
saving a bundle of trees, not to mention printing costs.]
And the farebox KEEPS the Transfer when you use it. Then at the end of the day they all go in a dumpster.
Mr t__:^)
Assuming the bus driver doesn't just dump them out in the street. I've observed TA drivers doing this.
-Hank
I guess it depends on how many they take in. I've seen some of our Capture Bins pritty full, but never though that any ever got THAT full. Wonder if anyone in the TA ever thought about it ?
Mr t__:^)
i've seen a couple of metrocard dispensers with no bottom! so all the metrocards would be all over the floor. some don't even put them in the dispensers. they just leave them on top of the metrocard balance reader.
You still get origional PATCO 1969 tickets if you are lucky. The PATCO tickets are fairly thick plastique with a full magnetic backing. They last forever.
I once got one of those, but used it, and now all I get are 25 anniversary ones. The fare is now too high for me to try multiple times, and I only go about once a year.
[... But there's no evidence that the token clerks will be dismissed or even phased out just because they aren't handling money anymore ...] [... getting rid of the old conductors by sheer attrition ...]
My friend, I will have to admit that some of my comments are self-serving, i.e. I have a feeling what their untimate goal is & I don't like it. The goal is real to some extent, the timing may be down the raod a piece:
- There are efforts being made to operate some of the tains with one or no crew ... will it ever happen on a 10 car train, I hope not.
- In the station I think "attrition" is the key word, i.e. will every station be staffed 24 hours a day, they will not. First you'll see some of the relief positions not re-filled, then one instead of both/all booths will be staffed. T-H-E-N why do we need Stations Agent, the cops in the stations can do that service job, it's already in their job description. This will probally happen gradually, and in fact when the staff first comes out of the booths it may not happen at all, at least right away. But those bean counters are going to keep picking at it.
This is where the public comes in. With millions of folks using the system they have every right to demand a certain level of service to handle emergancies & customers questions/assistance. The MTA will say, well, that's going to cost you a fare increase, OR well, then we can't build the 2nd Ave subway. Here under nycDOT it seems that the operation is more directly accountable to the public, that's a good thing !
Disclaimer: I'm way out on a limb here, so let me repeat that I don't work for the MTA (nyc), TA, nycDOT and am speaking for myself.
Mr t__:^)
MVMs will never replace us! (and I thought you were on my side :-)--oh well!)
On Monday I worked at a station with 3 MVMs. ALl 3 MVMs were refusing to take bills and were refusing to take coins. I called for a repairman at 550AM. WHen I left the booth, they were still refusing cash! You should have heard the complaints I got. I even had an AFC Supervisor at the station and even he could not get a technician.
I am old enough to remember banks before ATMs. They said ATMs would replace humans. I have had to use humans in the bank and yes they are still there and lines are just as long.
MVMs can not tell a customer of a service disruption, they can not tell a customer how to get to Coney Island or the Empire State Building. An MVM can not call the police if someone is feeling ill in the station, or they got robbed. A Cop in every station-- no way!
I have worked stations where cops were present and I had fare jumpers (Adults! with no kids) and they were ignored!
NYC has many immigrants and people who are afraid of technology.
Even with the unlimited rides and the 11 for the price of 10 there are still many people-even younger people, who still ask for tokens. When I tell them, "I'll give you the tokens but if you buy a MetroCard you'd get2 free rides for every 20 tokens you buy."
I get many unprintable responses and many- "Thanks but I dont like the ****I'd rather have tokens."
They have no rational reasons for buying tokens, unless they want to ride the Roosevelt Island Tram.
A station agent once yelled at me (insults, curses, and threats) for tapping on the glass. I responded by buying 40 tokens instead of adding $60 to my Metrocard. This was after ten packs had been abolished. He conveniently did not have his badge in the window.
>>> I am old enough to remember banks before ATMs. They said ATMs would replace humans. I have had to use humans in the bank and yes they are still there and lines are just as long. <<<
What an example you chose! If you think ATMs have not replaced tellers in banks you are living in a dream world. Because of ATMs banks that used to have six or seven tellers on duty at any given time now have two or three. That's why the lines are just as long even though many people are using the ATMs to conduct their transactions. There hasn't been a complete elimination of the job of bank teller, but it would be entirely incorrect to say that ATMs have not replaced thousands of bank tellers.
With regard to station agents, those now working need not fear losing their jobs, but don't be surprised to find that the total number of station agents declines with attrition as retiring agents are not replaced. I predict that sometime in the future in the less busy stations there will be courtesy telephones installed next to token booths with signs saying "Pick up telephone for information when Agent is not on duty." (And several years after that none of the phones will work.) The hours that agents are present will be cut back and the total number of station agents will be reduced.
Although a cutback in the number of station agents will lower the level of service to the riders, service to the public is not always the TA's primary goal.
Tom
[MVMs will never replace us! (and I thought you were on my side :-)--oh well!)]
My friend that is exactly the point of my post.
I believe that service must stay on the MTA's goal list, maybe the politicans should mandate a percentage of the staff devoted to service directly to the public ?
The suits & other bean counters don't have such a view ... it's operate within budget & eliminate as many workers in the field as possible while adding suits in the back office.
What do all these folks do for the MTA ?
- Subway & buses cost less to buy
- Trains operate faster
- On-time preformance is improved
- Maint. cost is cheeper (include everyone involved that may not be in the maint. facility !)
The stations ARE more attractive and SAFER, but didn't Rudy have something to do with that.
The MetroCard has pulled some folks out of their cars, that's good for all of us.
I don't have the answers, just some questions.
Mr t__:^)
The Hospital in Bismarck uses similar cards in the Cafeteria. Use the card you get the employee price. Use Cash, pay the public price. There are machines to refill your cards at the enterance. But.... You have to PAY $5.00 to buy or replace a lost card!
Elias
Here in Memphis, there is a 24-hour copy shop by the name of Kinkos which uses similar plastic cards to operate the copiers. You use a special machine to purchase your cards, and can then refill it, etc.
The was that THEY do it is charge you for the card itself. When you put in a dollar and get a brand new card, it is worth $0.92. However, if you refill a card you already have, it credits the card with the full value of the cash you put in.
So, in effect, the cards cost eight cents each. Not really a wallet-breaker, but it IS the equivelant of the 5-10 cent refund idea you mention.
Later,
===BWB===
The Kinkos' in Atlanta got rid of those cards a while back. Now they just have a bunch of counters you stick into the copier and it records the number of copies made, then you take it to the cashier and pay. Also the counters are connected to a big plastic stick thingy, so you don't steal it. Think that would work on a subway? :)
I haven't seen this at the NY city Kinko's bu t in the Bronx, there is a laundromat called Clean City. There are about three in the borough. They have a similar situation where the customer purchases a card and fills it with $$$$ to use in the machines. There is a minimum $$$ requirement, so it seems there is always an odd amount left over.
Joe C.
KHI:
They do have containers in which to dispose of used MetroCards but they weren't made properly and the used MetroCards frequently fall out. I think that they should have a large container near the turnstiles that one can toss their used up MetroCards into and make them so that the cards cannot fall out and at the end of the day the containers are emptied out and the used MetroCards can be distributed again. They can also have merchants who can accept used Metrocards and then they can be collected and reissued. Maybe this would help to reduce the letter that is created by used Metrocards.
BMTJeff
The reason the cards fall out is simple-- the homeless break inrto the box thinking thwey can find a card with money and thern enetr the system, or much worse--they take a card (With no money) and try to sell it to an unsuspecting customer. If we see it, we warn the potential victim " Do not to buy the card it has no money on it. They are trying to scam you." to the suspect "Dont sell swipes. Ot is Illegal. I am calling the police." and then I hit the EBCS and yes- they usually have fled the station by the time the cops come. We have caught some. We are too late sometimes-- the victim comes to us and tells us that the card is not working. We tell them it was last used a month ago and they tell us I just bought it. Where did you buy it-- they are silent. I then have to tell them that they were scammed and if they'd like I can call the police. Most just leave cussing me. Ah- a day's work! I love this job! (Yes- I really do!)
It's stories like these that I recommend everyone to ignore those homeless bums AT ALL COSTS. I always see someone give a bum change whenever a bum enters the train I'm in and that of course only encourages them to come back for more. There should be more signs, big & in large letters telling to ignore them, so nobody can moan and cry like a bully just took away your wimpy wittle wowwipop. They may look decrepit, but they are shrewd and have absolutely no compassion when scamming unsuspecting customers. If I see one of those bums try to sell me Metrocards, especially those unwrapped individual ones, they would meet the wrath of my big, devasting, destructive...
"NO!".
Sorry, I don't promote violence... try not to.
We do have signs in many stations with the Police Shield on them advising not to buy swipes and I have seen people buying swipes right at the sign!(and yes-- I do ask the swipe seller to leave and I do call the Police as per rules.)
subway-buff@mindspring.com:
One solution to the problem of the homeless breaking into the boxes would be to make them much more difficult to break them open. If they're difficult to break open this may be enough to discourage this homeless from trying.
BMTJeff
I agree with you but then peons dont rate!
The homeless problem was one reason for the change where deposited cards will permanently lose their value.(Meaning- if you accidently drop a card with money/time that is valid into the bin, your card would now be useless and we cannot bring it back to life by adding more money). This is done by magbnets inside the bin.
You will know when the bin has magnets because the wording on the top around the slot will advise you "Deposited cards permanently lose their value"
How about attaching the bins to the Token Booth, so that the cards go out of the system immediately.
Two problems:
1. Collectors, like me, wonuldn't like that too much
2. MTA suits would fear that Station Agents would spend more time checking these cards (for value, for their collection) then selling new ones.
Mr t__:^)
subway-buff@mindspring.com:
I guess that the TA doesn't have the brains to install secure MetroCard deposit boxes.
BMTJeff
they will come around to it sometime soon. they always come up with good ideas after something happens.
Any estimates on the total number of passengers the subway has had since 1904?
Aww, c'mon people, no one has any estimates? Off the top of my head, I would guess that 1 to 2 billion people ride it every year since probably the 20's. That probably comes out to around less than 160 billion. From 1904 to 1920, I'd say a billion, tops, per year, so that'd be 16 billion. So would around 170-180 billion or so sound like a good number?
current is 3.4 million per day so using windows calculator that's 1.24 billion per year. I have also heard that today's subway ridership is rougly half of that in 1950 so that would be 2.5 billion per year. also didn't some of the original IRT exist prior to 1904?
Abe
Many have ridden, few have gotten good customer service.
Why 1904? Why not the very first IRT line in the 19th century...
Abe
The IRT was only created in 1900.
The there were elevateds before this time, but the first subway opened in 1904, the IRT from City Hall to 42 st, then to Broadway to 145 st.
well since you are counting the Els now, why not then too?
I figured since 1904 was the opening of the first subway, and today all the subways and els are referred to as "the subway," that would be a good starting point. If you are right about ridership being as high as 2.5 billion in the 50s, then perhaps NYC has had, or is close to having, its 200 billionth customer.
The term "el" is a bit of a misnomer, since New Yorkers tend to call any line running on an elevated structure by that term. All of New York's bona fide els are gone now, and those which remain are elevated subway lines. Two segments remain which started out as els and were upgraded to handle steel subway cars: the Broadway-Brooklyn line as far as Cypress Hills and the remaining Myrtle Ave. line. A bona fide el dates back to pre-subway days and as a rule, could only accommodate lightweight equipment.
Yesterday (9/18/00) at approx. 6pm after what appeared to be a delay on the southbound Broadway BMT line in Times Sq., an R46 R pulled in on the express track. As me and a friend was about to enter it, another R46 R pulled in on the local track. We got in on the 'local' train since it appeared to have more room. Amazingly, both trains closed their doors at virtually the same time, departed about the same time, ran about the same speed, and arrived in 34th St about the same time (the 'express' R did go express after 34th). Though very brief since we only needed to go 1 stop, it was an amazing sight to see 2 R46 R's running almost perfectly parallel against each other. A brief moment in glory on the Broadway BMT for the undervalued R line.
An amazing sight? You need to leave the house more often. :)
If the express reroute was an R68 N, the R46 local would have been all the way to Dekalb before the N got to the switch north of Canal.....LOL
Of course, since City Hall gives priority to the B'way local, that R-68 would have gotten there in time to allow the next N and R to go through.
Well today I took the LIRR to Atlantic avenue. Very fast ride through the tunnel, and a nice 'el ride after East New York.
Anyway I caught the B train (an R68) right after an R left Pacific, figuring I'd catch the R at 36th.
Well we got to 36th just as the R local was pulling out.
"Express" on a Hippo is slower than a local R46 train.
Going back later I had an R32 N train and the ride was much faster up 4th ave. Gotta stay away from the Hippos. They really do like to feed on your time.
Fairly frequently, I'll be on an r40 Q at Church ave, with an r68 D on the local track where they both pull out at the same time. My own experience, and I've seen this many times, is that the q and the D both go the same speed up until the D has to brake for Beverly Road. There is no noticeable difference.
I've been on R68s going express at the same spot and I'll also say it seems slower. But is that because they are quieter?
You shouldn't judge like that. If you've ever noticed, there are timers on the express tracks heading into 36 Street. There aren't or less restrictive on the local tracks. I was on an R46 on the R Line leaving 25 Street. An R32 N Train pulled up on the side. I was faster than the R46. The timers slowed it down slower than our R46. Also, the 4th Avenue northbound express has less resctictive or no timers.
running on...
or
4th Av. southbound has timers on 3 track from south of Prospect Av. to the middle of 36 St.Sta. dropping from 35 mph to 20 mph at the end of the grade time area.
1 track only has one 20mph timer in the middle of 36 St.Sta.
4 track's first timer leaving 36 St. is at Union St.
2 track's first timer leaving 36 St. is at the entrance of Pacific St. however there is a 15 mph speed restriction from 36 St. to south of 25 St.(most T/O's ignore this however).
I guess with all the damn timers on the express it aint much of an express, especially in non-rush hours (when local trains have hardly any congestion).
Had that same sensation on the 8th av. line on 6/29/84, headed downtown between 23 and W. 4 sts. Don't remember what line my local was...it was the first time I'd ridden the subway in 21 years.
As we all know a Rino can run faster then a Hippo, but both are beasts and are sometimes offer a scary ride.
Mr t__:^)
Every time i visit my birthplace & home NEW YORK city N.Y. USA & as I ride the subway all around sometimes i wonder if DUKE ELLINGTON caught a train here..Maybe a young MILES DAVIS or JOHN COLTRAINE, the village vanguard & other great jazz night clubs of NYC & NJ ( the half note in N.J).KENNY BURRELL RICHARD GROOVE HOLMES ERIC DOLPHY PHAROAH SAUNDERS MCCOY TYNER
The subway reminds me of these & many other GIANTS OF JAZZ MUSIC who played & recorded here as well like Jimmy Smith Wes Montogomery Grant Green Hank Mobely Art Blakely Elvin Jones
Maybe some of you know where in New Jersey in Engelwood Clifs where the most historical and famous & most of the gratest jazz musicians of all ( TOO MANY TO QUOTE HERE ) recorded on the blue note jazz label,
Impulse Prestige KUDU were recorded in a studio ownned by
RUDY VAN GELDER ...@ VAN GELDER RECORDING STUDIOS in Engelwood Clifs NJ maybe you were blessed as a jazz fan to visit or tour this place I always wanted to see where this most famous jazz recording studio is !!!
I wonder how many subways the BIRD caught with MILES DAVIS & COLTRAINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PATH ridership is increasing rapidly because of increasing businesses in Jersey City and bargain hunters riding PATH instead of the subway along 6th Ave, according to an article in Tuesday's Star-Ledger.
Today while doing a little railfanning after school I saw a group of businessmen going to the Trade Center from 33st, and were surprised at the infrequency of service (12 minute wait between JSQ trains). They opted for my HOB train, and sat at the railfan window and read their papers... argh.
NWK/WTC midday service has been temorarily decreased (until November 2nd, IIRC) for "essential maintenance west of Journal Square".
Does that mean single-track again? I hope so, maybe I'll get to take pictures this time from the yard track passing siding. I saw the notices for the past week, but I didn't realize until now.
Yes. They are single tracking and going through that yard lead.
However.. PATH does require photo permits!
Today's Times has an interesting article concerning the shortage of office space in Manhattan. The link, which should remain in effect for the rest of the day, is here. I only had time to make a quick skim through the article for now, but it does seem like transit-related issues come up a couple of times. Most notably, the article mentions that efforts to promote the Queens West development in Long Island City as an alternative to New Jersey for priced-out-of-Manhattan businesses has failed, largely because of poor transit links.
(Most notably, the article mentions that efforts to promote the Queens West development in Long Island City as an alternative to New Jersey for priced-out-of-Manhattan businesses has failed, largely
because of poor transit links.)
That's not the only reason. If transit was the sole factor, Downtown Brooklyn would beat out Jersey City. Jersey City also has big tracts of vacant land in private ownership. NYC has subdivided parcels in private ownership -- I heard that nothing is getting built in Downtown Brooklyn because land speculators are waiting for unrealistic prices -- and large tracts in public ownership, encumbered by politics and review procecedures.
City Planning does not escape blame. I was the project director of the Commercial Use and Parking Study -- the report was ready to go, complete with photographs, a couple of years ago. It would have encouraged entreprenurial expansion in the other boroughs. Lots of people did lots of work on the project. The head of City Planning sat on it -- why bother, all you'll do is stir up the NIMBY crowd and hurt the Mayor's Senate Campaign. That's zoning. Meanwhile, transportation investment hasn't exactly been the number one priority on this side of the river.
Were I not still under the obligations of an employee, I'd blast them publicly for what they have failed to do.
Meanwhile, in addition to running out of energy, space, replacement tires and labor, there is now a shortage of blood, which is causing elective surgeries to be cancelled. Looks like we are about to hit the wall.
The land speculators in Downtown Brooklyn are in a dream world. It's easier and cheaper to get things built in NJ. Electricity is much cheaper in NJ also. Even rundown old towns like Weehawken are successfully getting in the game. Rezoning Manhattan west of 8th Avenue for office buildings makes so much sense that you know westside residents would fight it till doomsday. But there's no guarantee that anything the city does would encourage large-scale speculative office building construction. The office glut of the '80s has made lenders understandably cautious because they understand the cyclical nature of the NYC economy more than most of our elected officials do.
Somewhat related to this issue is the 'affordable' housing initiative being pushed by likely 2001 mayoral candidates. A few of these geniuses have proposed rezoning manufacturing zoned areas for residential use. But aren't these the same guys who really think that manufacturing jobs are going to return to NYC, and who oppose 'big-box' stores that the rest of America are flocking too. I love NYC liberals, they give us 19th century solutions to 21st century problems.
(Somewhat related to this issue is the 'affordable' housing initiative being pushed by likely 2001 mayoral candidates. I love NYC liberals, they give us 19th century solutions to 21st century problems.)
Any "liberal" or "conservative" should fight that proposal tooth and nail. What these guys want is affordable housing for their little clique, before they lose power all together. As in the Mitchell Lama projects of the 1970s, the valuable, below market housing units would be offerred on a first come, first serve basis. But only insiders would know the time and place the applications would be available.
If there is one thing our politicians can't stand, it's spending money on services for everyone that people have a right to expect, rather than undeserved perks for the few who will be eternally grateful.
This is shaping up as the last raid on New York City, with the Archie Bunker set (Vallone) and the non-profit profiteers (Green) competing for the spoils.
This is shaping up as the last raid on New York City, with the Archie Bunker set (Vallone) and the non-profit profiteers (Green) competing for the spoils.
The way things are going, a better analogy might be that of a vulture and a hyena fighting over a rotting wart hog carcass.
..the Mitchell-Lama projects..
I forgot about them, in other words the insiders bought publicly funded apartments dirt-cheap when the city was in the toilet, then sold at huge profits 20 years later. What an innovative combination of socialism and capitalism! Only in New York! How can I get in on this legal scam?
..the Archie Bunker set (Vallone)..
The New Improved Vallone is a true liberal (really a populist), except when it comes to getting goodies for his Queens district, then he is a machine democrat. But then again why the hell not. I expect my councilman to do the same for us here on S.I.
(..the Mitchell-Lama projects..
I forgot about them, in other words the insiders bought publicly funded apartments dirt-cheap when the city was in the toilet,
then sold at huge profits 20 years later. What an innovative combination of socialism and capitalism! Only in New York! How
can I get in on this legal scam?)
Are you planning to leave Staten Island, or do you really plan to do the New York thing and sublet your new "primary residence" illegally at market rates and pocket the profits?
Liberalism 1900 to 1940 = help average people.
Liberalism 1940 to 1965 = help the poor and minorities.
Liberalism since then = help yourself.
If you want to apply for subsidized housing, go to the New York City Housing Authority(There's an application office in every borough). "NYCHA" receives about $2 billion a year in funding for its 343 projects, about 90% of it federal. Yet their projects still stink of p*ss (at least most of them do).
I know, I work for them.
The land speculators in Downtown Brooklyn are in a dream world. It's easier and cheaper to get things built in NJ. Electricity is
much cheaper in NJ also. Even rundown old towns like Weehawken are successfully getting in the game. Rezoning Manhattan west of 8th Avenue for office buildings makes so much sense that you know westside residents would fight it till doomsday. But there's no guarantee that anything the city does would encourage large-scale speculative office building construction. The office glut of the '80s has made lenders understandably cautious because they understand the cyclical nature of the NYC economy more than most of our elected officials do.
We need look no farther than the familiar institution of marriage for some additional clues as to why construction cranes in Downtown Brooklyn are as rare as whooping cranes. Just like holy matrimony, building, financing, or taking a major lease in a new office tower is a long-term commitment. You don't rush out and marry some girl you've met a week ago simply because you've had a fun date or two. You have to - or at least should - think long and hard about how she's likely to be 30 or 40 years from now. Similarly, it's a bad idea to enter into a major financial obligation and develop or finance a new office building simply because NYC has a pro-business attitude right now (though this attitude is pro-business only when compared to the city in the past, not to the Sunbelt today). You've got to make your best estimate as to what the business climate's going to be like for the foreseeable future and even beyond. A business planning to lease space has to make similar estimates, if perhaps for a somewhat shorter time frame. I know it's been said that most large businesses today cannot see past next quarter's financial results, but I don't quite believe that.
What's central to all this is the undeniable fact that NYC has not had a very good track record when it comes to creating and maintaining a good business climate. It's all too possible that everything old will become new again, and the city will before long revert to its bad old ways. Businesses have to weigh the possibility that a few years from now there might be big tax increases, further declines in the educational system, more infrastructure deterioration, higher crime rates, or any of many other unpleasant scenarios. Just to cite one possibility, we've all heard complaints that suburban commuters are taking too many of the well-paying jobs being created. A few years from now, Mayor Mark Green might decide to impose city-resident hiring quotas, regardless of the fact that there aren't enough skilled and educated residents available. Just the thought of such an edict will send shivers up any prudent businessman's spine - and make the Sunbelt look even more enticing.
..because NYC has a pro-business attitude right now..
Absolutely, witness all the long-term sweetheart deals companies have extracted from every mayor going back to helpless Abe Beame to keep jobs in the city. Any smart businessman wants to be locked into to a good deal during the pro-business times.
..the city will before long revert to its bad old ways..
Sadly, this looks like the most likely scenario, except if Hevesi is elected. He's the only one with brains in the democratic pack.
..suburban commuters are taking too many of the well-paying jobs being created. A few years from now, Mayor Mark Green might decide to impose city-resident hiring quotas..
Resident quotas probably illegal but just seeing the phrase "Mayor Green" is scary.
who knows about the shuttle between yankee std. & polo grounds?
I do, I do!
Have you looked here?
--Mark
regard mid 1950 shuttle thanks mark for info.
Depending on your point of view you'll either miss me or be glad I'm gone for about 10 days unless I can post from another location. Going to Denver to visit a friend I've known since childhood, and ride the Light Rail. With luck I'll get to visit Steve B. Hope my aging mind can bring back something to share on the new Denver system as much as I can share what I remember from when dinosaurs roamed NYC and Chi.
Keep well. big ed
Big Ed wrote to me and asked that I fill all of you in on his trip. We were unable to connect while he was here, but did speak briefly on the phone. He said he was cutting his visit short and left the day after we spoke. To make a long story short, he is getting a divorce, has moved out of his house, and does not have access to a computer. He sends along best wishes to all, especially BMTman and heypaul, and hopes to be back online sometime in the near future. While he's not looking for sympathy, he is going through some tough times, so let's all hope he can pull through.
He has my sympathy. I hope he is not ill. I went through a living hell for two months with all sorts of things, some legit and some in the mind. My confidence and well being suffered a hit. Fortunately all the tests, save one, have come back favorable, and I'm still waiting for the last one---which the doctor says is 99% sure will be good news. So whatever the problem with him or any colleague on this website, I'm with you in spirit and if prayers are needed, you can have them, too. BTW, how did we get that April 20, 1946 date on the site in the first place? What happened that day? The date jumps out at me for the April 20 alone. Some historical rotten SOB had his birthday that day, but not in 1946. He was dead by then.
No, Big Ed is not ill. Let's just say he is going through some difficult times on the homefront and leave it at that. Most of our phone conversation consisted of him venting, when we weren't talking about the subway, and he repeated most of it in his letter.
If you could keep him in your thoughts and prayers, he'd be grateful, I'm sure.
Steve: Consider it done---and I mean it. Send Big Ed my warmest regards.
Ditto
Peace,
ANDEE
Steve B,
Your post came as quite a shock to me as I have been corresponding with Ed for almost twenty years, and was not aware of any problems. He is overdue in writing and I guess that is the reason.
I think I gave you his old Montana address several years ago when you expressed interest in his S gauge transit models. It's ironic in a way because I first told him about SubTalk in a letter many months ago, and he eventually became a regular poster to this site.
If you talk to him again, give him my regards!
Karl B.
I saw my first R142s today, going the opposite direction at Grand Army Plaza. I like the black floors -- they hide the dirt well. The white walls, however, immediately made me think of the permanent magic marker I keep out of the kids' reach at home.
I still haven't had the pleasure of riding one of those! I did see one pass by. The digital sign is similar to the ones on the R44s/R46s.
Black floors? I liked them when I saw them on the R68.
:)Andrew
The digital sign is similar to the ones on the R44s/R46s.
Actually, the LED signs are quite different if you look at them closely. The R44/R46 and Boston Red/Green Line 01800s/Type 7.5/8 have a yellow background with black lettering. But the R142s have it reversed, black background with yellow letters, which provides a much clearer LED display, especially from a distance. -Nick
Its LCD, and NJT has had it on their Comet IVs for years. I've never seen one pixel burn out, and it looks much smoother than black-on-yellow like the R-44,46,Arrow III car types have (which frequently have blank sections). If you look closely, you can tell the things are made to show slopes and curves instead of just boxes and right angles.
LCD = Liquid Crystal Display
LED = Light Emitting Diode
The white walls, however, immediately made me think of the permanent magic marker I keep out of the kids' reach at home.
Reminds me of the thoughts I had 40 years ago when I first saw the pink fiberglass seats on the R-27s.
-- Ed Sachs
More and more R62's are appearing with the black floor as well............
3TM
the reason R-62's are getting black floors with blue gravel is because the old linoleum floors are starting to rise of the surface it is glued to. R-32's are also gaining them for the same reason and a few R-68a's have them since 1997. its a good thing they are replacing the old linoleum floors because rising floors + tripping passengers = lawsuit!
I'm reasonably sure written grafitti can be wiped off these much easier than the tan on the R-32s (the TA ain't that stupid). Ever look at an R-32 that's been running on 4th ave over night?
the materials used to build the R-142's are made to not take any permanent marker vandalism. once put on by some no direction in life vandal, a couple of sprits of the grafitti (is it two f's or one?) spray and it comes off like water gliding off a baby's bum! plus the gravel that is put into the white washed walls help blend in any grafitti that left a shadow. (i think on that one)
However, the walls most likely are not built to resist scratches. It's only a matter of time before those 142's look like the 36's.
And R-62s and R-68s.
I'm worried about those seats, just itching for some scratching!
The back of the exterior digital sign looks inviting too.
I don't think that wall scratches easily, the R-46 wall is similar and it doesn't.
I like the white walls because in addition to the lights, it provides a greater brightness in the car which is good for the safety of the public. -Nick
I liked the old generic R-68 looking "Subtalk" logo a lot better than "Autumn in New York" - do we have to wait til the 8th of October to get the old one back??
Well, I can appreciate David Pirmann's support of the Trolley Museum as many folks will attend the event that weekend, and I'm sure others appreciate the support. The old SubTalk Logo? He'll bring it back later....
-Stef
He said that if he ran the ad and the logo were shown at once, it took too long to get to the real stuff. The logo will return once the Shoreline event passes. I don't like the Shoreline ad either.
You have to scroll down to get to most of the "good stuff" anyway so I'd like to have seeen both
Let me tell you this, the promo means $ and recognition for the Museum since it is in close proximity to the NY Area. If we don't have money, maybe in the future, there won't be events like this again. The subway fans will come if they are called upon.
This is the first time I've heard of people complaining about the Shore Line logo. I don't recall reading about this previously.
-Stef
Last year I'm not sure we had a SubTalk logo that got temporarily replaced.
I like it because it reminds me every time I visit of something else I have to remember to do. If it weren't there, I'd remember on October 10 th while reading a post like "Huge Turnout for Autumn in NY".
Wait, I just realized. The Shore Line museum in is East Haven CONNECTICUT. Shouldn't the event be called Autumn in CT?
Geez, if we want to get picky about it, I guess Autumn in CT is appropriate, but the theme is about New York Equipment.
-Stef
I say, bring back the old logo. But make room for that Lo-V. It's a good picture.
That's up to the Webmaster, friend.
-Stef
Now you have brought up an interesting issue.
The main museum building is in East Haven, but as soon as you go across the creek you're in Branford. The original name for the place, in 1900, was BER, Branford Electric Railway, it's now BERA or Shoreline, which ever you prefer.
Now about the photo ... I was up on top of that car two weeks ago putting the trolley pole back on with a fellow subtalker ... actually three of us were involved, one stayed below handing us up stuff. She and her barn mates are now ready to take you for a ride down memory lane.
Why Autumn in NY, because everything that rides the rails these two days last ran in NYC, trolleys as well as subway cars. Anoe-moue says he'll be their in his red suspenders. Maybe you'll catch him putting the peddel down on the TARS #629.
Why the free adv., why not ? The place is a non profit & many of us love the kind of old cars they (we) are trying to preserve there.
I for one would support our friend in Kingston haveing Dave put up a photo of their Lo-V or R-16 as part of a special nyc/subway event. I would feel the same about Seashore having a special week-end including their R4 & R-7, or their SOCA set. How about if Mike Hanna gets his Standard set finished & wants everyone to come see ?
Maybe I've gotten too close to the subject, but if none of these groups is doing it for profit, I don't have a problem with it. Maybe it's Dave's way of helping ensure that they all don't turn to dust. We all want to see them saved ?
Mr t__:^)
Well put, Thurston. Even though I could be accused of some prejudice as a member of BERA myself, I personally would welcome any free advertising for the museums, especially when they're putting on a special event such as this one. (I'm only sorry that, since it's Yom Kippur weekend, I won't be able to make it.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, It's Autumn in New York, like the song.......
...be this the same "Spunky" who posted
publicly asking for help on changing his
handle-- rather than emailing Mr. Pirmann?
Fact is, with the majority of SubTalkers
setting their tracks to attend the Shore
Line Event, the banner ad has been quite
a colorful and helpful reminder!!
...Amused with the main page train banners...
Actually, my question has been about the new page 'titles'...liked the old big ones better, quite frankly.....
Monday morning I arose at 5:45am to get up and drive to the Sumner Commuter rail station here in the south Puget Sound. It was the inagural day of our new "Sounder" commuter rail. This has been plagued by budget cutbacks, uncooperative local governments, trackage rights issues and all sorts of other problems but after riding it today I don't believe anyone was thinking about that. To start with two trains leave Tacoma, south of Seattle, and run into Seattle in the morning. In the evening two trains leave Seattle for Tacoma. Along the way, they stop in Auburn and Sumner. Ohter stations in Kent, Puyallup, and Tukwila have been delayed but are under construction and will open over the next year starting with Puyallup.
My train was scheduled to leave Sumner at 7:08am. It arrived at 7:05, slightly ahead of schedule since the schedule is set up to allow time for stopping in Puyallup, which hasn't opened yet. At precisely 7:08 we left Sumner. It's a push-pull operation, just like the Metra I grew up riding in the Windy City, and it was push into Seattle so me and two other photographers were hogging the "railfan window" in the front of the car. About a half mile out of Sumner we hit the 79-mph zone. Now THAT is rapid transit! We whizzed past cars on the nearby West Valley Highway (a two-laner with a 45-mph speed limit and an average traffic flow of about 55 when it's not jammed). Stopping in Auburn to pick up about 80 commuters, we then headed nonstop into Seattle. Leaving Auburn is a 75mph zone. It slows to 63 for awhile because of track conditions and then goes to 79 again. Work crews are currently upgrading the 63 area to 125mph tolerances (to be used fully only after all the computerized stuff is installed for Amtrak's Talgos to operate at 110). We had to stop at a red-yellow flag for about a minute north of Auburn before we had radio clearance to proceed. Time was easily made up as the schedule allows for stops in Kent and Tukwila that aren't open yet. Crossing the Duwamish river we were really pushing the 79 limit. The tracks run paralell to Interstate 5 after the river and I-5 was wide open. Not a lot of traffic at 7:30ish on a Monday morning. But wide open or not we passed the cars on I-5 too - because we got 79 and they got a 60 zone and go about 70. We arrived in Seattle perfectly on time, relaxed...Sumner to Seattle is a 31-mile trip, a distance we covered in 37 minutes. The full-length run from Tacoma to Seattle covers 40 track miles in 54 minutes. When track upgrades are completed within the next two years (and when there are nine rush-hour round-trips instead of two) that time will decrease to 42 minutes. Yes, I'm seriously talking about a commuter rail line averaging 58 miles per hour with station stops. The Bombardier cars, complete with electrical outlets for laptop computers, are rated for the full 110 mph that the F59PHI Locos can attain and that speed will be coming soon. In the meantime it's a quick and enjoyable ride. Seattle's first train is great and will likely see very high ridership....
Abe
How did you get back?
Good question, Pigs. Since I was railfanning and not commuting I didn't have the whole day to blow in Seattle while waiting for a train back, so I took an Express bus to Tacoma and a local bus to Sumner. The 594 Express runs every half hour between Tacoma and Seattle all day, thus Tacoma-Seattle can be rush hour only. The Auburn and soon-to-be-opened Kent Stations are on route 150, which also provides direct service to Seattle, running local as far as north as Tukwila and then express the rest of the way. Sumner and the soon-to-be-opened Puyallup station, however, subsist on hourly local bus service with no service at night and little or none on sundays...
Abe
What is the fastest commuter rail line in north america? I am talking average speed from one end to the other, including station stops. Seattle's Sounder will have an average of 58 once the track upgrades are done. For now it's 31 systemwide but 48 between Sumner and Seattle. I would thing some of the LIRR branches out in the middle of nowhere would have high averages since there are long distances with no stations. Seems like some of SEPTIC's EMUs could hit a high average too...anyone know what the fastest in NA is?
Abe
My NJT timetable doesn't seem to have distances listed. A quick glance finds a number of trains scheduled to travel the 16 miles from Princeton Junction to New Brunswick in 14 minutes, including the time stopped in N.B. That's 68 mph.
The fastest SEPTA Start to Stop average speed that I calculated was 43 mph on a R7 express. The Great Valley Flyer on the R5 frm Thorndale hit 43 I think.
i think a few years ago njt had a trenton express that maxed out at 105mph.
Metrolink in southern California does some 90 miles an hour running for some sustained stretches on the Orange County line once south of Santa Ana, all the way to Oceanside (except for a few curve restrictions).
If it weren't for all the slow-speed running in the vicinity of Los Angeles Union Station, Metrolink might have a much higher average speed thanks to all the high speed running they do do once out of the terminal area.
And that's with Diesel...that is a lot what Sounder is going to be like when the upgrades are done.
I heard somewhere that Marc has a one a day train that hits a *scheduled* speed between 2 station of - get this - 110 mph. I'd love to get a confermation on that. It's on the NEC, and they've got AEM-7s....
Yes, indeed. MARC has two scheduled trains running non-stop from Washington, D.C. to BWI Rail Station. The trains are 520 (departing at 4:20PM) and 526 (departing at 5:20PM). It takes only 23 minutes to run between Washington, D.C. and BWI Rail Station, the same as Metroliner.
The top speed is 110 mph. Especially when you ride Train #526, which consists of an AEM-7 and 7 bi-level coaches, it is a very cool ride.
Chaohwa
23 minutes for 30 miles is 78 mph, which includes the time stopped in the BWI station. Train 490 is scheduled New Carrollton to BWI (21 miles) in 16 minutes, or nearly 79 mph.
Bob
However, when a MARC train departs from Washington's Union Station, it takes some time to switch to the main track. That takes about 3 to four minutes.
Chaohwa
I'm guessing that the fastest scheduled train (from origin to terminal) on the LIRR is the 6:09 AM from Babylon to Penn which is scheduled for 48 minutes (about 20+ minutes faster than normal). I doubt that the mileage from Babylon to Penn is more than 48, though -- so the average speed is probably less than 60MPH.
Can't speak for America, but for attaining top speed in the NY area, my vote goes for the NJT Northeast Corridor line with the New Haven line a close second.
In my opinion, trains using a pantograph give a smoother ride than those using a third rail. However, are they able to obtain a higher maximum speed than third rail trains? It's just that compared to a LIRR train, the NJT(NE) and the NH trains seem to go much faster and a wayyyyyy smoother ride. Especially the New Haven Line(for smoother ride).
I've never noticed any difference between the two. It's more track than anything, I'd imagine.
Overhead powered trains can be faster because of the extra kick that all those volts get. Assuming 1000 amps maximum current, 12,500 volts ac give you 12,500,000 watts of power. That's 3 ALP-44s, almost. To get that much power from third rail, you'd need to be able to draw over 16,000 amps. That's probbably 4 or so times what the rail can supply.
25,000 volt systems are even more powerful. The trend towards higher voltages is that you can get more power, because current isthe real limiting factor here. But, you need clearances for the high voltage. That's why the NH line is 12,500, not 25,000 volts. I'm not sure what the old 3kv systems can do, though the LIttle Joes were rated around 5,000 hp, I think.
Ok, I vote the NJ arrows as having the coolest pantographs, followed by the M-2s. I despise Favileys in general, though they're popular in the US. interestingly, the Sweedish RC-4 doesn't use them, but the AEM-7 does, even though they're basically the same locomotive. I'm not sure of any distinct advantages offered by them. Other than they look "modern". But the NJT arrow ones still look cooler :)
If you including stops, I think you'd have to look at the Montauk Cannoball from Jamaica to the Hamptons. The lack of stops probably overcomes diesel speed.
The Montauk branch was actually the LIRR branch that popped into my mind when I first wrote that - do all Montauk trains terminate in Jamaica?
No. About 65% of Montauk trains terminate in Babylon. 30% terminate in Jamaica and 5% during the rush hour go to Hunterspoint Ave.
M-N trains seem to fly between New Haven and Milford. Between Milford and Stratford, they are still pretty fast. That's probably due to the wide distance between these three stations. Also the speed on NJT trains between Princeton Jct. and Trenton was really fast before the Hamilton station was built. The run between New Brunswick and Princeton Jct. is also a fast run (most of the time) when the Jersey Ave. stop is skipped.
[The run between New Brunswick and Princeton Jct. is also a fast run (most of the time) when the Jersey Ave. stop is skipped.]
I think an earlier post in the thread mentioned this as a 68 mph run, including time at 0 mph in the station.
The NJT Atlantic City Line is very fast. For the 50 or so miles between Lindenwold and AC there are only 4 station stops and the line is straight and level. Sustained running speeds of 85 mph are common.
A quick glance at the Transit A.C. timetable suggests that, with station stops, speed doesn't exceed 60 mph.
The friend with whom I marvelled at Paulin's Kill viaduct on Saturday used to ride a Budd car to the shore every year with a stopwatch timing mileposts and routinely experienced 90 mph between Winslow and Hammonton.
On my AC line trip my stopwatch said 85 several different times. The line is cab signaled and very flat so its very probably. I thought it took about 50 min to go from Lindenwold to AC.
For non-electrified services, I suppose the NJT/MN Port Jervis line must average out pretty fast west of the Moodna viaduct......
Nah, its pissing slow unless they upgraded the single jointed rail Southern Tier Line since I was on it.
The P.J. Line is continuously welded rail between Harriman station and Port....Going Eastbound you can immediately tell the difference after leaving Harriman, where the 'normal' track resumes..In fact, between Middletown and Harriman you can put your coffee on the seat next to you, and it won't spill! VERY deceptive speed between Middletown and Salisbury Mills/Cornwall,if you aren't looking out the window...Actually, you parallel I-84 [speed limit 65,which NOBODY does...] for a bit, and you outpace all but the VERY heavy speeders...
After much consideration and insight (not really -- I was just trying to sound deep and sophistacated for a change), I am now signing off strictly as 'BMTman.' The 'Doug aka' part is being retired much like our beloved Redbirds and my short-lived moniker, 'SubDude' (the seniors residing here will certainly remember that ol' handle), some things must come to an end.
Okay, start shedding those tears...:-(
Yours truly,
BMTman
OH NO!!!!!!!!!!! :(:(:(:(:---(:____(
Say it aint so!!!!!!
3TM
sorry, Mike, I should have warned you first. That would've softened the blow.
BMTman
Gee thanks!!!!!! Too late now. Maybe I shorten my name to Sub.
3TM
09/19/2000
Yeah but the "Doug aka BMTman" would lend a double identity to you.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Yeah but the "Doug aka BMTman" would lend a double identity to you.]
But, Bill, I don't think Doug "Parkside" has a good sound to it. ;-)
BMTman
How about "Doug Cortelyou" or "Doug Beverley"?:-)
BTW, the business editor on Denver's KOA radio station is a Scott Cortelyou.
Or Brighton Doug Coney. Oh, hell, that;s a crappy one. But I thought I would put my two cents in. On second thought I probably should have kept my mouth shut. Next stop on the Sea Beach? Out of the tunnel and on to 8th Avenue.
We Hardly Knew Ye, Doug!
Bob, I think I hear "Taps" being played in the background as I type this message...;-)
BMTman
Hey Doug.E.Fresh(aka beat box man), do you still have to walk to the front and crank your car to start it?
And how hard is it for you to find regular gasoline for your jalopy?
Zman, you give yourself too much credit....no, the car is a self-cranker (otherwise I call up heypaul and get him help me push it to the nearest gas station!).
It runs good on regular gas since it is from that transition period (1969), but I will pamper "The Beast" with high-octane every now and then. Some of my fellow classic car owners (who have some reeallly old stuff) will use a leaded additive to the engine whenever they fill up the tank.
Actually, my car is SO big, I need a FLAGMAN when I'm backing up! ;-)
BMTman
They were still using soft valve seats in 1969, and the lead acted as a lubricant. Most 1971 model cars had hardened valve seats to allow the use of unleaded gas.
Has the movie-star-car changed too?
i applaud your change of handle, and would encourage you to consider becoming a more conservative railfan, a personna more in keeping with your advancing years.. needless to say, you should also consider another car, one which gets at least 5 miles per gallon....
....gallon of gasoline or oil?
neither one jeff... doug gets 5 miles per gallon of water...
Ouch!!
LOL
I resemble that remark!.....Why, I oughtta...
Niagra Falls....
What the HECK does Doug drive,anyway, a Greyhound bus???
No, a car that was new when Eisenhower was in the White House. :-)
Cars in that era got almost as bad a gas mileage as gas buses of the time. However, regular was 25 cents/per gallon and premium was 31 or 32 cents. I had (long gone) (sigh!) a 57 Chevy Bel Air Hardtop Convertible (no post between front and back doors) with GM's BIGGEST V-8 under the hood. It passed anything but a gas station, and only liked Golden Esso Extra. The trunk was as big as the Grand Canyon nad we actually hauled coils of trolley wire to BSM in it, and the spings never sagged.
I'd love to still have it.
Sounds like a high compression four-barrel carb smallblock.
It's almost as big as a bus and has an appetite like a GMC Old Look!
I have to have a flagman in position whenever I'm turning a corner or backing up!
BMTman
A '69 Chrysler 300 - passes everything but a gas pump :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This can't be the demise, a.k.a end of Doug, a.k.a BMT Man!
OK..I've had way too much Sprite..
...does this mean a gimmick change
for the Notorious BMT Man himself!??!?
Well pal, I hope this isn't a mid life crisis. I would have chosen Mr. Prospect Park Shuttle or some somthing similar along those (pardon the pun) lines.
I am sure HeyPaul is drawing up all the proper subtalk legal documents for your name change.
May your name be blessed..... and not like "Gawd Dam BMTMan" type blessing that is,
' dont feel bad I had to change my handle & name once !!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
Fine by me. Your new name sounds great. I've considered altering my handle, too. The #4 Sea Beach is history, but that was when my favorite train was the signature line of the BMT. That is why I still hold out. Anyway, the name is yours and enjoy it.
Does that mean you're giving up rights to the name "Doug?" I've been thinking of changing my name.
E-gads! Paul, don't tell me you're going to take my old handle???
BTW, thanks for the wake-up call! I must email you regarding some mutually important info. (I know I'm guilty of neglecting my personal email department).
BMTman
Disney already has the rights to the name "Doug". That's why BMTman had to give it up! :)
--Mark
I think it was Patty Mayonnaise who asked him to make the change ?
Mr t__:^)
When I went to Union Station, Washington, D.C. to eat dinner this evening, I found that HHL-8 659, just accepted by Amtrak, hauled Metroliner 119 to Union Station.
I got a chance to look at HHL-8 659 closely. I was amazed that HHL-8 is much quieter than AEM-7 or AEM-7AC.
Hopefully more HHL-8s will be accepted by Amtrak sooner.
Chaohwa
Is the HHL-8 the Acela engine? My dad was on one of those trains this week or last.
Speaking of Acela engine, everybody would think of the power car of the Acela Express first. HHL-8 is part of the Acela project, but it has 8000 hp. The power car of Acela Express has 6250 hp.
Chaohwa
well since one ACELA "Express" engine is always with another wouldn't that be 12,500 hp??
You are absolutely correct.
Chaohwa
Chao-Hwa,
This month's Trains Magazine has 2-pager about the AEM-7s. If you haven't seen it, you should pick it up, although the article is probably not news to you. I searched trains.com, but I couldn't find it online to post a link.
KP
I did see that article. Clearly the author is glad that AEM-7s will have new lives. Thanks for your reminder.
Chaohwa
Are there any old timers or experts on the Fulton Street El out there?I have received several dates for the closing of the Fulton Ferry Terminal: sometime in 1910, sometime in 1914, Jan. 19th, 1924 (the date the Ferry closed), and that the one remaining platform could be accessed during rush hours until the El's demise on June 1st, 1940. Any Brooklyn BMT historians able to help with this one?
ELKEEPER
Did the structure to the ferry building remain until 1940?
This reminds me of something the old Els did that the subways to not -- connect with water transportation at the waterfront. There was an el train to the waterfront at 34th Street, along Broadway and Fulton St in Brooklyn, and a whole lot as South Ferry.
The subways basically made those ferries redundant. When the BMT opened service on the Williamsburgh Bridge in 1913, the Broadway Ferry became redundant. I'm curious as to how long the structure easte of MArcy Ave lasted after the connection to the bridge into MAnhattan.
That one I know, Chris! They used a surplus steel El car from Boston and used it as a single car shuttle until July 3rd, 1916. By the way, Broadway Ferry was a bi-level station, but only the upper (NOT LOWER) center island platform in use. This spur, which also had a station at Driggs Ave., was the remnant of the BRT's dream of building its own train bridge to Manhattan. The BRT then offered to pay part of the Williamsburgh Bridge if the City would allow it free and unsupervised use of its trackage. The City refused and the BRT sulked and refused to operate trains on the bridge until 1908, five years after the bridge opened.OK? I think it was 1908- not 1913, Chris.
MIKE
The first BRT train ran over the Williamsburgh Bridge on Sept. 16th, 1908. It's in Brian Cudahy's '"OVER AND BACK" book, page 177.
And it ran into what became the Essex St. trolley terminal until the Centre St. line opened to Chambers St. in 1913. Much to the BRT's embarrassment, wooden el cars were used all this time because the company still didn't have any steel subway equipment. The BMT standards would change all that.
The BRT/BMT Standards didn't change "all that" overnight. They still used gate cars on the Broadway-Brooklyn rush hour locals until 1927.
A surplus steel el car from Boston! This one I have never heard of!
In 1908 Boston had only one steel car order, cars 0175 to 0219, built in 1906 by Pressed Steel Car Co. and weighing in at a formidable 76,000 pounds. Door controls were outside and mechanical linkages until six-button control was added later on. Thus these cars, which were designed for operation in trains of a minimum two cars would not have been suitable for such a single car shuttle. The previous order 0151 to 0174 was wooden bodies and lighter but also the so called easy-access design with enclosed vestibules and outside door controls. The previous orders, which were build as gate cars, were suitable for such service, and were built in odd lots, so there might have been extras. These dated to 1899 and 1901.
Got any more information on this?
Maybe it was BRT 998?
Very good, Jeff! It was BRT's Car 998 and was called the "EASY ACCESS CAR". For those of you who have James Greller and Edward Watson's, "THE BROOKLYN ELEVATED", it's on page 114. I rest my case.
ELKEEPER
The first BRT train crossed the Williamsburgh Bridge on September 16th, 1908. It's in Brian Cudahy's "OVER AND BACK" book (page 177) about the NYC ferries. The terminal was called Delancey St. and was later renamed Essex St., when the line was later extended to Chambers Street.
MIKE
I think your question was how long did the el last to B-Way Ferry after the Willie B connection from Marcy Ave was completed.
I read somewhere that service to B-Way Ferry was discontinued during WW-I. The el structure itself stood until the city took over the BMT in 1940. It was supposed to be used for car lay-up during those 20+ years.
I'm sure that I remember this from reading it somewhere, but I don't remember where I read it.
My church was at Bedford Ave and Wilson St, requiring us to get off the train at Marcy, and walk a few blocks.
I would have been there in 1940 but I do not remember that out-of-service portion of the el. Of course I was very young in 1940!
If you got off at Marcy Ave., walked straight up that street to Metropolitan Ave. and turned left, you'd be almost right across from my old Saturday school at Annunciation Parish at N. 5th and Havemeyer Sts. This Saturday will mark 33 years since my first day there, as well as my first ride on the R-16s.
That's the difference, you walked north and I walked south. I'm afraid that I never got north of Broadway in those days. My last visit to Williamsburg was in 1949, about 18 years before you started. I'll bet the neighborhood has changed a lot since either of us was there last.
In the 1940's Brooklyn had a holiday on the first Thursday in June when the protestant sunday schools would have parades all over the borough. Some people called it Brooklyn Day, and others called it Anniversary Day. It actually was the anniversary of the Brooklyn Sunday School Union. I remember parading on what seemed a very long stretch of Bedford Ave in Williamsburg.
Steve B--Are you coming east for the York train show next month?
The first Thursday in June is still a school holiday, called Brooklyn Queens Day. I always thought it was the strangest holiday, and I knew nothing of it's roots.
I had a cousin who went to church in Woodhaven. His church paraded too, so I know that at least part of Queens participated. His church was on 75th or 76th St, so it was just over the border in Queens.
When our church in Williamsburg had to close my parents started to attend a church in Cypress Hills. That church contracted the Brooklyn Tech HS Marching Band to parade with them and play appropriate music. This would have been in the 1950's.
The Sunday Schools had parades all over the borough in those days.
Well before this Gen-X'ers time, but thanks for explaining the history about this day.
No, unfortunately I won't be at York. One of these days...
I'm still paying down my national debt from all of the Flyer stuff I've bought on my four-year binge
Sorry you won't be there! Don't forget what I told you about two years ago. It is the biggest and the best train show in the world! I hope you get to go sometime!
So do I.
One mo' time, Karl B! The ferry itself closed in December, 1908. The shuttle from Marcy Ave. to Broadway Ferry closed on July 3rd, 1916. The prime reason, besides low ridership, was that the shuttle spur did not fit in to the rebuilding plans for the then Broadway-Jamaica El, as required by the Dual Contracts of 1913. The spur itself was kept until after the 1940 Unification mainly because of the Kent Ave. power station. It was used for some wooden El car layups, which ran as rush hour Broadway-Brooklyn Locals until about 1927.
ELKEEPER
ELKEEPER,
I don't think I wrote anything wrong, did I?
I was mainly trying to get the 1940 date to Chris. He asked how long the structure lasted, and I don't think that part of the question had been addressed in any of the previous responses in the thread! :-)
Once again, I refer you to THE TRACKS OF NEW YORK #2. On page 7, there are two photos of the Fulton Ferry station. The structure remained until the Fulton St. El's 1940 abandonment and 1941 demolition. In the lower left photo, dated 1940, a wooden fence blocks off the ferry and blocks the stairway to the eastbound platform. The stairway itself appears to be in shambles. Also, the gates between the first and second el cars on the eastbound track are closed, not open. The lower right photo shows the station in 1914. There is a clearly legible STATION CLOSED sign over the stairway. If the station was closed in the 1914 photo and the east platform stairway blocked off in the later photo, how could you possibly access the station? The west stairway and platform are completely missing in the 1940 photo- so that rules them out too. I'd still like to know when this station was closed to passenger use!
MIKE
I have this image of the Ferry Terminal and the bridge. The ships on the left appear to be of the modern or WWI era. There appears to be a ferry boat leaving the dock. There is a El train on the northside track of the terminal structure. I am guessing that this picture dates from 1918 or so. Can any one else see any age identifying subjects. I also have a postcard image of the Bridge from an earlier time (probably after construction) that shows a few sailing ships tied up at piers just about under the brigde or a little further north. Those piers do not appear to be visable or do not exist in this view.
It is a nice picture, Mellow One! I'll add it to my collection. Too bad that we don't have a date for it. Now take a close look at the five car el train. The lead car (closest to the water) and the next car are parked beyond the station platform. Yet, there is plenty of platform room for all five cars. Look at the platform area adjacent to the tower like building on the far right. If this train was picking up/discharging passengers at Fulton Ferry, all five cars should be parked within the platform area. True or false?
I can not answer that.
However, ther is a ferry boat that appears to be leaving the slip.
Well, that only means that the photo was taken sometime prior to 01/19/24, the date that the ferry stopped running. But let's get back to that station scene. If that station were open, that 5 car el train would be positioned so that all 5 of the cars faced the platform. That photo only reinforces my belief that it was closed, even when the ferry was still in use.
ELKEEPER
Well, you are probably right.
I would imagine a lot of Brookly history passed through that terminal and the site before the terminal was built. There was probably a landing there since the Dutch Colonial Days. The bridge, in all its glory, changed all that. From then on, most people walked or rode to and from Brooklyn. I think NYC could put trollies back on the bridge and make money on just the tourist trade alone.
That is a nice view of the Park Ave structue under construction.
I have a few historical SVs of the terminal & area.
The Bridge under construction, the Fulton Terminal el under construction and a few other views. I also have some SV images of the bridge trackwork. One shows the standard guage tracks & third rail and the broad guage tracks & cable for original cable operation. The other is a later electric only view with a nice BU car.
I will put some of those SVs up on my mainframe console site soon.
My next question deals with the Manhattan Terminal.
When the terminal was extended over to City Hall Park, was that part of a plan to extend the Manhattan El and the Brooklyn El trackwork so that there would be a cross platform xfer and possibly a switchback for a semi-thru operation? Or was that part of the plan to loop the Brooklyn el back up then new or abuilding Manhattan Bridge?
Elkeeper: Service on the Fulton Street El west of Rockaway Avenue to the Fulton Ferry Terminal was discontinued on June 1,1940 as you stated. Prior to this the upper level loop and station at High Street were taken out of service on February 23,1933. The old Kings County Terminal which branched off the line to Fulton Ferry was closed on Janaury 22,1934. On or about 1936 the Futlon Ferry Terminal of the Fulton Street El was converted to a single track terminal with all trains arriving and departing on the former eastbound track.
Very early dates for abandonment of the "Fulton Ferry Terinal" might refer to the terminal of the same name on the original Lexington Avenue El or "Old Main Line." This portion of the Lex was never electrified and was closed on August 31,1904.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The LExington Ave. el once terminated at a ferry? Any more info about this?
The original Lexington Avenue L, which was also Brooklyn's first elevated line, ran from Fulton Ferry (not the KCRR terminal) via Park Avenue (Brooklyn) and Lex to Broadway to Fulton Street to Cypress Hills. The Myrtle Avenue Line and the Lex's connection to it came later.
The structure between Alabama Avenue and just short of current Cypress Hills station on the J line is the original, though strengthened and modified, Brooklyn L.
Chris: The Lexington Avenue El opened on May14,1885 from Washington & York Streets and ran via York St,Hudson Av,Park Av and Grand Av to Lexington Av and north to Broadway. It was extended westward a short distance to Fulton Ferry on November 11,1885. This station was parallel to and beneath the Brooklyn Bridge whereas the Fulton Street Line Fulton Ferry Terminal was more or less south of the bridge. The portion of this el on Park Av and on Grand Av west(or north) of Myrtle was taken out of service in December 1889 and abandoned either in December 1890 or 1891.(Dates vary). The remaining portion on York St and Hudson Av was abandoned in December 1904.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I checked my dates, which I had added to the track maps in THE TRACKS OF NEW YORK-BROOKLYN ELEVATED RAILROADS-1910. I have a December 30th, 1890 date for the Old Main Line" and a date of April 10th, 1904 for the remaining shuttle that ran on Hudson Ave. The map is on page 11 of the book.
MIKE
Larry, the Park Avenue portion of the "Old Main Line" went in the 19th century and was never, as you said, electrified.
The surviving piece which closed in 1904 was used by 5th Avenue L trains and was, I'm almost certain, electrified. Fischler has a picture of the line next to Brooklyn Bridge with third rail clearly visible.
Paul: I know that I've seen that picture somewhere. I have Fischler's "Uptown/Downtown" book but couldn't find it. However both Joe Brennan (Brooklyn Elevated Lines in the Early Years,ERA NYD Bulletin August 1987) and Joe Cunningham (History of the BMT) report that the line was never electrified and became the last steam el operation in Brooklyn. The line was reportedly served by shuttle trains by 1896.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It is possible that a short section of third rail may have existed for emergencies or mistakes by towermen.
It is also interesting how the tracks over the Park Av. and Grand Av. junction were altered when the routes were connected to the Brooklyn Bridge. There was an effort to avoid flat crossings so Fifth Av. trains turned left over Myrtle toward the bridge, Lexington Trains turned left onto Myrtle and then right onto Grand to the ferry, while Myrtle trains turned right onto Park Av. and joined the Lexington trains at Grand. Thus there were two intersections where routes turned away from each other, avoiding a connection or crossing.
Later, all of the service followed Myrtle to the bridge, the Park Av. route was abandoned and Grand became the shuttle as noted above.
I am not sure if all my street names are right herein, but all of the routings are detailed in Tracks of NY V2.
Larry, Here is the picture, which I've prepared for an upcoming review of Stan's book. Though a little fuzzy here, the third rail is clearly visible in the original--even Fischler himself remarks on it. It's appearance and position (adjacent to the inside walkway) clearly indicates that it is third rail and not guard rail or something similar. You can even see third rail chairs on the westbound track.
The appearance of 1000 series L cars on the train climbing Brooklyn Bridge dates this shot to the last year or two of the Old Main Line's existence.
Also, here is a Detail photo showing the third rail somewhat better.
This shot is almost at the end of the line, so the possibility that it is a bit of extension third rail for yard movements doesn't wash.
Paul; I finally located that photo on page 9 of "The Tracks of New York" Number 2. Your detail enlargement very clearly shows a third rail. I can only speculate that third rail may have been installed but possibly never energized. This section of the Old Main Line was clearly superfluous once it was possible to run the Myrtle and Fifth Avenue trains into Park Row and the Fulton Street Line arleady served theUnion Ferries at the foot of Fulton Street. On page 4 of the same book the author's state that although the elevated lines were electrified between 1898 and 1900 there was a shortage of electric motors so many trains continued to be hauled by steam.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I'm familiar with the Old Main Line and its own Fulton Ferry terminal and the Kings County Terminal, which connected to Sands St.The only possible clue might be in the TRACKS OF NEW YORK- BROOKLYN ELEVATED RAILROADS 1910. There is a page with a 1914 photo showing a man next to a stairway to one of the Fulton Ferry platforms.Look carefully at the stairs, Larry, they are stenciled in white paint, STATION CLOSED". Borrow a copy if you don't have one. My question is, was the entire station closed (one platform was demolished)? Or, was it open using the other remaining platform? One old timer said that they kept the Fulton Ferry sign on rush hour locals, but, in effect, the first eastbound station was Court St. for PM rush hour trains and the last stop for westbound AM rush hour locals. According to him the station was derelict and the tracks between Court St. and the Ferry terminal were for non-rush hour layups. He concluded by asking who would use the station, even in rush hours? Especially after the ferry stopped on 01/19/24. So, back to square one- when did the station close? A rush hours only station was open until 06/01/40? I doubt it, Larry! Is there anyone else out there that can help with an answer? But thank you, Larry, for your trouble.
MIKE
This weekend, uptown 6 trains got to use the Lex Express. I timed the R-142a, and it took 12 minutes from GCT to 125, with 2 stops. MNRR trains take 11 minutes, with no stops. Whassupwithat?
Metro-North goes quite slowly entering and leaving Grand Central. Due to the restricted speed in the network that funnels Grand Central's dozens of tracks into the four that run up Park Ave., the Lexington Ave. express regularly beats or at least ties Metro-North on the run between Grand central and 125th St.
In that case they should test the r142 on Metro North Railroad. Bombardier also makes metro north trains.
In that case they should test the r142 on Metro North Railroad. Bombardier also makes metro north trains.
Just 1 problem. The Bombarier cars are push/pulls, not powered.
The need FL9's or Genesis locomotives. Plus because of the numerous switches between 59th and the bumper blocks in GCT, they are restricted to about 10 mph.
Bombardier is making the M-7.
But the M-7's are not here. I don't even think they are in production yet. They may have to wait for other cars in addition to the R-142's to clear off the production line.
But my previous comments still stand. The Bombardier cars currently on Metro-North are all push/pull's
Have a nice day !!
After today's heavy rain, my ride on an R32 N train showed alot of leaks. One major gush of water was coming down between Pacific and Dekalb on the northbound tracks.
Another was at Whitehall.
There was alot of minor flooding in the stations. I got off at 42nd street to transfer to the 7 and there was a huge traffic jam of people heading toward the 1,2,3,9 and shuttle trains. It wasn't moving much.
Fortunately I veered off to the left down the ramp to A,C,E and 7 train. This was all around 6pm
When I got down to the platform no 7 trains were in the station, and one finally came in, and I had a rather uneventful ride on a 7 express which wasn't too overcrowded.
I heard on the radio at 6:30pm that the LIRR was a real mess. All trains were suspended in and out of Penn station due to an electrical fire in one of the East River tunnels. Service was slowly being restored at 7:30pm, but the track in one of the tunnels is damaged from the fire. Anybody know anymore on the cause and location of the fire and smoke condition?
Here's the story, from the Times. The fire began in ties in the tunnel at 5:40 PM, damaged the third rail, and was extinguished in about an hour. Smoke billowed into Penn Station. Full LIRR service was restored by 7:45 PM, with 30 minute delays.
Here's another one, also from the Times. It says the affected tunnel is expected to remain closed through morning rush; listen to the radio for information.
Seeing as I go to school just a hop, skip and a bus ride up the Great Valley attending the Event at the Shore Line (East) Trolley Museum is a big possibility. However I am not inclined to attend alone and I was wondering if where is a SubTalk time and a SubTalk place to meet. Furthermore I was wondering if anyone here could GIVE ME A RIDE FROM THE NEW HAVEN TRAIN STATION or EXPLAIN A TRANSIT ALTERNATIVE and GET ME BACK THERE TO CATCH MY BUS BACK HOME!
A number of subtalk regulars will be there. Some are already
volunteer operators, others have indicated that they will be
coming up for the first time. I'm sure among them we can work
out a pickup at Union Station, or you can consult the directions
at the museum's web site which includes a fairly detailed explanation
of how to take a CT transit bus the approx 4 miles from there to
the museum.
The way Mike walks, he could walk the 4 miles in about 40 minutes. :)
I walked/jogged the 8 miles from Middletown to Meriden in 2:15 and then did the opposite the next day in about 3:15. I then learned of the 3$ bus and vowed never to do it again. There is a bus that get me in at 11AM and a bus that gets me home by 8PM daily so that's my time frame.
Ah, yes, good old Rt. 66, or whatever they call it today (322?). I presume you jogged alonside it.
Its still Rt. 66 and let me tell you I did not get any "kicks" what-so-ever from walking along side of it. I was on a 48 hour transit oddesy to meet a friend from englande at Newark Penn Station. I walked to Meriden, Amtrak to New Haven, Metro-North to GCT, subway to Penn, PATH to NWK, Amtrak to 30th St. and PATCO home. After 3 hours of sleep I took one Amtrak to Meriden and when walked back. It was Sept. 12 of last year.
I used to live in those parts (Cheshire to be exact) and know that route very well. Will be at UConn's Homecoming next month.
Also, anyone interested in a carpool for the ride up on Saturday may contact me at: shado183@juno.com.
My car can hold 6 LARGE people (just ask heypaul). Unfortunately, two spots are already taken.
We hit the road early from NYC (around 7 am) to get to Branford at 9:30.
Inasmuch as I will be spending the weekend up there, those who are coming up for Saturday only will not be getting a car ride home and should consult the MetroNorth schedule for an afternoon/evening train. Of course a car ride to the New Haven depot (Union Sta.) from BERA could probably be arranged.
BMTman
I wish I could go, but it's Yom Kippur weekend. To top THAT off, I just got my playoff tickets. Holding out hope the mets can win 11 in a row...
-Hank
The only way the Mets are going to beat the Braves is by forfeit. This is the third year in a row they've pulled a September Swoon. Oh well, what can you say about a team which plays in Flushing?
Too bad Shoreline can't hold Autumn in New York a few weeks later. I could swing by before heading back to LGA for my return flight home.
I agree!! I have to leave early on Sunday because it is Yom Kippur, I've been bitching about it since the calendar of events came out.
Hmmm...thought hits me...nope.
No way. This is the first time in 4 years of buying playoff tickets that the game I have tickets for will actually be played (and 2 of the 4 years they didn't make the playoffs!) No way I'm missing it. It'd be too full a day.
Oh, well. If I go, I'll be the one wearing #99.
-Hank
Today's NY Times (20 Sep 2000) has semi-humorous article regarding the proposed changes to the TA's "on time" critera on the first page Metro Section.
The article points out that "precise, to-the-minute schedules are posed on every platform". The article did not point out that such schedules are REQUIRED for the NYCT by state law. Thus far, the NYCT compliance appears to be approximately 0%!!! Can anyone cite a counter-example?
It's online here.
Lifted from today's NY Times article by Clyde Haberman:
["It's like grade inflation," said Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers
Campaign, a riders' advocacy group. The mass-transit managers, he said, will look better on paper, when what they should do is add trains and buses to handle increased ridership. Similar points were made by Michael T. Doyle, associate director of the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.
Mr. O'Leary rejects any suggestion that flim-flam may be afoot. "If we were going to cheat, would we announce it?" he said.]
This is funny enough by itself with out further comment !
Disclaimer: Have lifted less then 400 words and identified the source & author.
Mr t__:^)
(Schedules posted)
I've notice more schedules posted these days. They aren't on the platform; they are usually by the token booth. And they list the frequency of service in different time periods on each line, not the time each train is expected to arrive.
This is copied from the times article, I think you need quantum math to figure it out:
"The percentage of intervals between trips departing from all scheduled timepoints, not including terminals, which is within plus or minus 50 percent of the scheduled interval (for all scheduled intervals less than 10 minutes), or, within plus or minus five minutes of the scheduled interval (for scheduled intervals of 10 minutes or more)."
On 2nd thought maybe HeyPaul wrote for the TA.
So does this mean that if trains are running on 10 minute headways and the train is 4 and a half minutes late, then the train is considered on time?
Yes.
Regardless of headways, if a train arrives at a terminal 5 mins. late or less, it's considered to be an "on time" train. Also, if a train is run as an "extra" meaning that it was an unscheduled run, no matter how long it takes to get to the terminal, it is considered to be an "on time" train.
It took the extra train 90 mins. for a 37 min. trip? No sweat-"on time" it is!
[Regardless of headways, if a train arrives at a terminal 5 mins. late or less, it's considered to be an "on time" train.]
Not so. If the headway is less than 10 minutes, the deviation from schedule must be within half of the headway to be "on time". Half of less-than-10-minutes is less-than-5-minutes.
This sounds almost as bad as SEPTA regional rail. Except on Regional Rail, the trains actually have printed schedules, and do not run frequently.
Want to see a subway run well? Come to Philadelphia and ride Broad Street.
What the f...?
Hey Lou, I think even Einstein would get a migrain from that piece of sh%&t!!!
But, since I'm a college grad I gave the equation the ol' college try, and came up with this answer for you: 5. That's the answer, five. No ands, ifs or buts about it. It took me a couple of days and my fingers are tired from using the abicus, but I found the answer (BTW, 5 is also the answer to the mystery of the universe).
Now, if you believe that, I have a bridge spanning the East River that I have for sale....;-)
BMTman
It can be shown using calculus that,
In the limit as buzzword approaches proactive,
OTP=BS
All this fixation on On Time Performance (OTP). Another
meaningless stat, just like MDBF, no, much worse than MDBF.
What one really wants to measure is the variation of
station-to-station running times, including waiting time,
per passenger. In other words, deviation of performance from
~customer~ expectations. If I, Joe Q Commuter, take the
subway from point A to point B every day and the scheduled time,
including an average wait of 1/2 the headway, is X, how often
does my trip take within one standard deviation of X, or within
some reasonable percentage (25?) of X?
Any system that just looks at arrival times at the terminal misses
most of what happens in between. Of course, the above is very,
very difficult to calculate exactly, although it can be estimated
statistically.
What one really wants to measure is the variation of station-to-station running times, including waiting time, per passenger. In other words, deviation of performance from customer expectations. If I, Joe Q Commuter, take the subway from point A to point B every day and the scheduled time, including an average wait of 1/2 the headway, is X, how often does my trip take within one standard deviation of X,
68.16%
or within some reasonable percentage (25?) of X?
19.74%
At least according to the Central Limit Theorem. Moreover, it approaches this limit quite fast. Most programming languages have a function that produces gaussian random variables. This function uses the Hamming algorithm that calculates the sample mean for only 12 uniformly distributed random variables. So, you should expect to converge onto these frequencies within one or two weeks.
BTW, most published tables for the gaussian error function still use the results from Works Progress Administration (WPA) NYC Mathematics Project.
[This function uses the Hamming algorithm...]
I assume you got this from Pigs.
I said the scheduled time is X, not the average time!
Are you suggesting that the scheduled time is a biased estimator of the average time?
NYS Public Authorities Law, Article 5, Title 9 Section 1204:
16-a. The authority shall establish and publish or cause to be published schedules for all passenger transportation services under its operation. Such schedules shall include the estimated departure and arrival time at each terminal point of each route except that, on lines where the headway time during the period between six A.M. and seven P.M. is less than ten minutes, such headway time alone may be listed for that period. Such schedules shall also show the elapsed running time between the terminal and each station. Schedules shall be made available at each facility on the applicable route at which tokens or tickets are sold and shall be posted at each appropriate station operated by the authority.
Most transit operators view publishing their schedules as being important to their business. It took a state law to prod the NYCT to adopt this practice. Even so, this law is ignored or flauted. So far as I can tell the only NYCT schedules that are in full compliance are those for the shuttle lines. All the other train schedules on the MTA site are deficient in one or more key aspects.
(Most transit operators view publishing their schedules as being important to their business. It took a state law to prod the
NYCT to adopt this practice. Even so, this law is ignored or flauted. So far as I can tell the only NYCT schedules that are in
full compliance are those for the shuttle lines. All the other train schedules on the MTA site are deficient in one or more key
aspects.)
Well, they've got schedules at the stations I use, both on a poster next to the token booth and on paper (though the paper schedules are often out, or they have the F schedule for Queens instead of the one for Brooklyn). Many bus stops have schedules, though some do not. Things have definately gotten better since the mid-1980s. When did that law pass?
I wish we didn't have that "frequent service" stuff, however, or at least defined it as every six minutes or less. This isn't commuter rail. You don't get a seat, and you aren't traveling far. The good news is the ability to time your trip without a lot of waiting, but a 10 minute wait is too much, especially with a change of trains.
How about United Airlines?
Rim shot!
If this is the thing they had on ny1.com last week, its a joke. A train or bus is on time when it arrives at the station exactly when it is susposed to.
Here is the MTA's definitions of on time, early, or late under their new plan:
On Time-When the 8:04 train arrives between 8:01 and 8:07.
Early-When the 8:04 train arrives at or before 8:01.
Late-When the 8:04 train arrives at or after 8:07.
The correct definitions are as follows:
On Time-When the 8:04 train arrives at 8:04. No earlier, no later.
Early-When the 8:04 train arrives at or before 8:03.
Late-When the 8:04 train arrives at or after 8:05.
The same applies for buses. For the motormen, conductors, and other personel on this board, those are the correct definitions and don't tell me how hard it is to stay on time because as a customer, I don't want to hear it. I want my 8:04 train or bus to arrive at 8:04 and not a minute earlier or later.
Fine! Then when you show up at 8:04:10, don't hold the damn doors open.
aLEX SLOW DOWN THERE is always another train inroute the yanks WILL be the 2000 world series champs. jim said it.
First off, here in DC most of the operators like being friendly to the passengers (or now we are customers) unlike most (not all) in NYC. Second of all, there is another train, a concept most commuters don't understand. At rush hours, being on time here in DC is important as in other cities as well so holding the doors open can cause delays. When the trains come less frequently, holding the doors open is somewhat more acceptable.
First off, my apologies for snapping at you. I don't usually, but it was a bad day and just the sight of one more person complaining about when trains arrive did it. That said, contrary to popular belief, most of us up here are fairly friendly to the customers, as long as they are friendly back ( or first). Unfortunately, like most good things, you never hear about it. They rarely mention it to the bosses (although sometimes they do - I actually have a letter of commendation from Reuter based on a woman I was talking with while at work). As a result, with only the bad things ever reported, all we get are rude comments about service, intelligence and our families.
Lately, there has been a rash of articles about the timeliness of train service here. Every one of them run like this -- the trains are not running on time; therefore they become overcrowded and get people annoyed. NEVER does it get mentioned WHY the trains are not running on time. In my opinion, there are two main reasons - the unrealistic schedule set up by the TA, and the inability of the customers to use the system correctly. That last one takes in a multitude of sins -- holding the doors open, especially when you can SEE the next train, overcrowding a particular car (or doorway) when the next one is empty, not knowing where you are going and the inability to listen (just on the off-chance that I might know something that you want to know). I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea.
As I'm sure you know, the train crew accomplishes nothing by taking their time getting from terminal to terminal, so there is no particularly good reason to do it. Therefore, the question begs to be asked - Why yell at me for a late train when I had nothing to do with it? Go yell at my boss. If enough of you do it, maybe they will do something about it.
I used to take the 6:06 (LIRR) out of Merrick every morning at 6:06.
It never left early, though it was sometimes late.
I would arrive (by car) at the station at 0600 hours, and at the start of the second network commercial on WCBS radio, would leave the car, go up to the platform for the arrivial of train 93, exactly at 0606.
Since that was back in 1980-1983, one can only presume that service has not deteriorated at all. : )
Elias
The article stated that precise to-the-minute schedules were posted on the platform in Tokyo, not New York.
I'm sorry. I meant to say that NYCT has a statutory obligation to post up to the minute schedules, just like Tokyo.
As there is a statutory obligation to post schedules, why were the current schedules posted on the MTA web site (dated April according to the file information) not posted to the on-line web pages until about July-August?
The Long Island Rail Road considers a train on-time if it reached its terminal within six minutes of its scheduled arrival time.
What that's come to mean in effect is if your train is due at Penn Station, Ronkonkoma or Babylon at 6:00, and the first car is at the platform by 6:05:59, it's recorded as ON TIME.
If the remainder of the train sits outside the station for a half an hour- on longer- after that, with passengers unable to detrain, it's still considered ON TIME. This means you can't get a lateness verification from 'customer relations' to show your employer.
This is how the LIRR can claim on-time percentages in the nineties every quarter.
There are many postings in the forums of LIRR Commuter's Campaign and the Yahoo!LIRR Commuter's Club on this syndrome.
So the TA allowing a three-minute on-time window doesn't seem surprising in the least.
And the amazing thing is, the LIRR still can't make their trains run on time, even with their loose definition.
Notice how everywhere else in the world, train timetables have a relationship to reality. Oh, sure. Things go wrong. But with the LIRR, every day it's another excuse.
MNRR says a train is on time if it "Arrives within 5 minutes, 59 seconds of schedule" according to the stats on the last page of Mileposts (their monthly publication).
Have a nice day !!
Actually, that's technically the time the LIRR allows. It must be an MTA decision.
As I said earlier this week, the MTA & all it's divisions needs to be more accountable to the riding public. Their bastardizing on-time preformance is just one example.
What is so bad about them reporting the facts ... oh someone would ask them to fix it ... what a concept.
Mr t__:^)
I was under the impression that the six-minute thing was an FRA requirement.
As for AMTK, I deem a train to be on time if I make my planned connections. Anything within 2 hours will sufice.
Elias
now that doug has changed his handle, i am considering changing my handle to "Doug aka BMTman"...
you might ask why would i consider doing that?...
i really don't know, except that i think it might add to the confusion here...
How about "wacko aka heypaul"?
i think "wacko aka heypaul" would be a little redundant... i had hoped by now that the "heypaul" handle would have an immediate brand name identification of high quality wackiness...
as for steve's suggestion of "mr baloney", i never really ate baloney in my youth... and now the seasoning and fat in most deli products do not agree with my gastro-intestinal tract...
[... i had hoped by now that the "heypaul" handle would have an immediate brand name identification of high quality wackiness...]
I'm all for a very high quality of wackiness. We have very high standards here you know !
How about the New Sub Dude (I remember who the old one was, that's why it's funny).
Seriously, I was having just a so so afternoon, but now I'm LOL, thanks.
Mr t__:^)
How about "Strange Brew"? You are different and that might be a possibility. There are others-----Tunnel Rat, Reverse Course, Backup Buck, etc. Let me know what you decide to take on as your new handle. I'll bet it will be a doozy.
Might I suggest that the leader of the West Coast Salamites has come up with some very creative handles that are currently lying fallow. For me, he came up with one I particularly like, "Mr. Baloney". Now I was seriously considering changing to "Mr. Baloney" but as a gesture of true friendship, I might consider letting you have it....
I thought "handle" was a C.B. radio term.
Ten-four rubber duckie, we're gonna have a Convoy!!!
10-4, good buddy, gotta watch out for those Smokies.
And to think they actually had a book out in the mid 70s on CB "slanguage".
Since you have a cab at your apartment, how about "Cabman"?
Chaohwa
Also, Steve is as known as "Train Dude". How about "Cab Dude"? It looks young to me.
Chaohwa
I brought my camcorder to record the train actions at New Carrollton today. There are three thing worth noting:
(1) HHL-8 659 hauled Metroliner 104.
(2) AEM-7ACs 924 and 905 hauled NortheastDirect 182.
(3) HHL-8 655 hauled Metroliner 108.
These means:
(1) HHL-8 659 will haul Metroliner 115, departing from NY Penn at 1PM.
(2) HHL-8 655 will haul Metroliner 119, departing from NY Penn at 3PM.
(3) AEM-7ACs 924 and 905 will haul NortheastDirect 85, departing from NY at 4:20PM.
If you want to see these engines running, this afternoon is a good time for railfanning. Also, today's weather is great!
Chaohwa
As expected, HHL-8 659 hauled Metroliner 115, and HHL-8 655 hauled Metroliner 119 back to Washington. I took both opportunities to take their pictures.
However, I got bitten by mosquitoes at New Carrollton! :(
Chaohwa
Recently my posts about defect detectors in the subway have basically gotten my the classis "the subways are not railroads you crazy nut, you're just a crazy nut" responce. Well I am now presenting to you my idea for a different kind of detector that you can impliment once you become head of the MTA. Here's a sample message:
"A division detector...City Hall, Manhattan...Track 1...first railfan...fisrt car...front window...second railfan...first car...seat 3...thrid railfan...last car...rear window...Oink*"
After this the operator would stop the train and go through each car w/ a shotgun to eliminate the defective people.
*Because you will come to power w/ the help of the Boarshevick party you will have to pander to them a bit and all radio transmissions will be required to end in oink.
Since the BOARsheviks will be pandered to, I would prefer that the defective people be sent to the Boarainwashing Center so they can be reprogrammed and join our armies.
Pigs, for Boarainwashing to be successful, it first must be established that the people have boarains. ;-)
BMTman
pigs it just hurts the passengers A union member
pig were buffs on the greatest system on earth but we should not hurt the riders in LA
That's OK. For those that are anensowphalic, there are boarains available for installation.
i've just started noticing the trucks of the R-142(Bombardier) and the R-142A(kawasaki) (i don't look downwards much) it appers that the bombardier uses airbag suspension, which makes its rides very smooth and stopping very smooth. the Kawasaki uses some kind of spring technology that is also anchored to the body of the car. also cofortable,but choppy and stopping is typical. my question is why didn't the Kawasaki get airbag suspensions on their cars?
Last week I mentioned the work flats with air brakes that are used with conventional cars acting as "horses." The air compressor is carried on the flat, as all Chicago "L" cars are all-electric. Some of the 2400 series cars were especially equipped to accomodate work cars and had extra striping across their ends for increased visibility. There is a 600v jumper to power the compressor.
Other series are work car capable without the special markings evidently, for instance the CERA Labor Day charter featured a flat car sandwiched between two Skokie equipped MK3200's.
David Harrison
Today, they were running a test car on the HBLR extension, between the Harborside station and Washington St. I suppose they were testing the power system and debugging the interlocking for the crossovers there.
By the way, does anyone know when the extension opens?
I heard three different dates at the Hoboken Festival:
November 8th
November 15th
November 18th.
Its obvious which one it is, November 18th. About 2 days beforehand, it will be delayed to sometime in December, because of some problem they overlooked (that seems to be how it works, doesn't it?).
It makes sense that they'd open the Newport extension in time for the x-mas shopping season.
-Hank
Um, for us Jersey City/Hoboken ignorant, is that the extension to Hoboken Terminal?
Yes, in a kinda/sorta way. The extension to be opened in November is from Exchange Place to Newport Mall. The next section, from Newport to Hoboken, is still not near enough to completion...
-Dave
Does anyone have any information on the bridge that will have to be built over the inlet to get the HBLR tracks into Hoboken Terminal? Type? Location? Number of tracks? Or are they planning on filling in part of the inlet to carry the tracks?
Speaking of bridges, it looks like they are already working on rehabbing or replacing the southern-most bridge over Marin Blvd north of 18th Street for HBLR use.
My Million Dollar question is: how is the HBLR going to get around the major traffic snarl of the Holland Tunnel exit/entrance between Newport Mall and Hoboken?
I assume that a tressle will have to be built to carry the line over the Holland Tunnel mess, otherwise the rail service will be brought to a stand still along with the auto traffic. There might be a provision above the Holland tube's Toll booth Plaza.
Any other ideas?
BMTman
The Try Transit free bus from Hoboken Terminal to Exchange Place last weekend took us past elevated construction for the HBLR.
Thanks, chuchubob.
BMTman
Some bridges are being built to carry the line over local streets -- the real answer to your question is that the HBLR is running between the Holland Tunnel portals and the river. I.e. to the east of the tunnel snarl.
You're right Dave, I forgot that the HBLR Line really hugs the coast --- avoiding the mouth of the tunnel as well as interior NJ neighborhoods (with the exception of the Westside Line).
BMTman
At Grand Central, the mezzanine at the north end of the train has 2 MVMs within the fare zone. And this is not by accident, like when the Canal st. entrance relocation left an exit to the street, a farecard reader, token booth, MVM and turnstile within the fare zone for a short while.
Hey! Buy your card while leaving, and you don't have to deal with the people buying before they enter!
-Hank
When will the M-7s arrive for testing (LIRR or MNRR)?
When will the PA-5 get off the planning stage (PATH)?
When will the Comet V and GOH'ed Comet IIs arrive (NJT, but it goes to NY so it counts)?
I was sitting here at my computer when a thought came to me. Why not register subtalk and bustalk, such as subtalk.com, and bustalk.com. You could do it free at NameZero.com. What do y'all think??
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
People will forget about the rest of the site, and ads will appear. I don't mind clicking my way here, if I'm in a hurry IE's AutoComplete helps me out:
http://www.nycsubway.org
and underneath appears:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?post
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?postform
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=150420
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=150440
etc...
One does not truly need a new domain name for part of the site.
We talked about this once before.
You can use "subtalk.nycsubway.org" and "bustalk.nycsubway.org".
Why would I want to give up the huge "brand identity" of the nycsubway.org name? If I wanted to register the names I could have done it. Free registration is not an issue.
-Dave
If it matters I still miss the old brighton.nycsubway.org server/domain. If you DO ever switch the names around you should make it brighton.nycsubway.org not subtalk.nycsubway.org. First of all new users will not know of the Brighton extention and will thus have to explore the main site. Second we as railfans like it when Railroads and Subway systems "grandfather" in old names and terms. Like PATCO's CENTER tower, LIAR using PL signals/PRR order forms and AMTRAK keeping the PRR interlocking names instead of pulling a Metro-North and using a MP number.
If you haven't been to my site, I used JavaScript to kill the ad. If you go to http://www.orenstransitpage.com/, the frame will disappear so the ad is not an issue.
If too many people kill the ads with javascript then the webspace provider will take measures to stop it. Used to be that Angelfire (which hosts most of my pages) listed the embedded code for their popup windows when you went to edit your page's HTML. Now they don't, and the function was rewritten - why? Because a closewindow function that was written the same way as their popup came onto the market. To me it's stupid, you can still hit "view source" on your browser but i've given up, I just put up with the banner ads. Framed ads like namezero are the worst thought because you can't scroll down from them and they reduce the amount of the site you can see - the solution is this:
set up an autorefresh page. Your Namezero domain goes to the autorefresh page which is simply a white background with black text that says "loading" and then refreshes to your REAL page, albeit without the ad...
I find it easier to kill the ads with a local programme (Junkbusters) or Firewall (AT Guard). However I found that AT guard was interfearing w/ my hi speed downloads (ramdom lockups) and was quashing adds I needed for banner access servers.
I actually attempted to pimp this idea to the rest of the board awhile back but Pirmann got REALLY pissed at me and accused me of not being able to even use the favorites bar....
Well, there's actually one big problem with all of this... Both "subtalk.com" and "bustalk.com" are already registered to parties not associated with this board (as far as I can tell).
So I think that should put an end to the discussion...
-Dave
Subtalk and Bustalk are NON-profit .ORGs and we could possibly qualify as an .EDU (Actually I thyink you can register under any extention no matter what you are in reality.)
Not true. You do have to be a non-profit to get a .org, and you need to be an accreditted educational institution to get .edu. .com goes to anybody who antes up. And with new .(whatevers) coming along shortly (and these will not be limited to 3 letters), the whole thing is going to get very messy.
-Hank
Hank: You do have to be a non-profit to get a .org
uh. nycsubway.org?
Still. I'm not interested in any additional domain names. The domain name space is polluted enough as it is.
-dave
What? I wasn't advocating anything. I just said you need to be non-profit to be .org. Unless you're hiding some secret part of this site...
-Hank
Anybody can register a .org, you don't have to prove anything. It's just as easy as a .com or .net.
I don't know how .edus are assigned and I believe that the government controls .gov and .mil
those two digit suffixes are national and are regulated by their respective governments. Some countries allow outsiders to register names there because they have cool codes like Tonga (TO) and Tuvalu (TV).
The story on .TV is that they were offered a LOT of cash to allow a company to sell names with the .TV top-level.
-Hank
you need to be an accreditted educational institution to get .edu.
You do? Anyone know if Innovative Business Solutions (a.k.a. :Track On Information Training) is accreditted?
--Mark
If you think about it most personal webpages that promote a hobby or interest would classify as a .org because those sites are not trying to make a commercal (.com) profit in any way. I saw this one add for register.com and one lady said she registered her "vision" and it was some blahblah.com. Excuse me, if you have a non-profit vision (which this was) it should be a .org. Websites with a .org are taken %20 more seriously than ones w/ a .com extention because non-profit is more wholesome.
That's crap.
It's easier to get a .com address, and a lot more recognized by the media. Hell, 99% of them don't even realize that the USPS is no longer a .gov, and think the only way you can be on the net is if you have a .com address. At least the ads that say "Find us online at..." don't say "http://WWW.WHATEVER@EMAIL.COM"
-Hank
.org is just as recognizable as .com Whenever a TV add itsn't trying to sell you something it usually points one at a .org address. People associate .com with corporations and money and .org with charities, public service and non-profit.
Our website "www.assumptionabbey.com" *is* run by a non-profit religious organization, and just yesterday I got an e-mail from Network Solutions suggesting that for an additional $10. each, I could also have the .org and .net versions of our name.
The North Dakota Nurse's Association is www.ndna.org
The North Dakota Newspaper Association is www.ndna.com
Network Solutions used to be the only place to register URLs in the .com .org and .net domains. Now there are others and they need to compete. They never did require much more proof other than your money, and now with the others, well, the upper level domain letters mean very little at all.
They will be coming out with bunches more of new upper level domain sets.
Elias
It's easier to get a .com address
It's just as easy, both of them can be registered at Network Solutions, or another ICANN accredited registar like register.com.
It seems that we want one-click access. There is a way to do exactly that!
Go to subtalk (or bustalk) by whatever means you prefer.
save as a favorite or bookmark
repeat for the other bobs.
I also suggest you set up a folder in your bookmarks or favorites to be called NYCsubway. In that folder would be nycsubway.org, subtalk and bustalk.Edit the favoites/ bookmarks and drag nycsubway.org to the new folder. I suggest you set up a series of topical folders in your favorites (bookmarks) and drag all your individual fbookmarks (Favorites) to the proper folder.
If you need free directions on saving bookmarks or favorites or in editing favorites or bookmarks, e-mail me off-site including your browser (IE or Netscape.)
to our experienced users: we were all new at one time. by asking them to e-mail me off-site this way we give them the help they would want without taking up bandwidth.
You would still be taking up bandwidth, just someone else's.
You can put the bookmarks in the Links (IE) folder or Personal Toolbar Folder (Netscape) to put it on the bar that's under the address bar.
You can also drag the icon next to the URL on the address bar to the desktop, start menu or quicklaunch toolbar (on the taskbar).
My Favourites menu is all ready too crowded as it is and SubTalk is one of those pages I manually type into. You can't argue with tradition.
It was announced today that Federated Stores will close the Stern's in Manhattan Mall by next March. They say the store is underperforming.
I'm in there all the time, I am a frequent user of the 34th street station of the sixth avenue line, and often use the restroom in Stern's and eat in the food court in Manhattan mall.
Stern's is always pretty dead during the week, but does better on weekends with plenty of long lines, but usually only in the kitchenware department.
With Stern's closing, the prospects for Manhattan Mall don't look good. There aren't many other stores to shop in the mall, and surely there probably will be a domino effect as other stores close when business decreases. Also when the new subway plans go into effect when the H tracks re-open and the A/B close, with less service on 6 ave more people will be shifting to other lines, and the Broadway Line is further from the Manhattan Mall entrance which may also hurt the mall.
As for me, without Stern's I won't be frequenting 34th street station on the Sixth ave line nearly as much. I always find Macy's to crowded to navigate, and it's a shame that Fed. stores has decided this is an underperforming store. I wonder what's next. Perhaps Stern's in Flushing is next to go.
And they say the economy is great. Yeah it is, only for rich people.
Things run in cycles, and retail is extremely sensitive to whims. 25 years ago, Gimbel's went out. A few years later, Korvette's. While transit reroutes can be a factor in diminishing customer traffic, it's not the cause -- if the stores aren't encouraging people to come back regularly and buy more, there's nothing that subway service can do to change it. Since we're talking midtown Manhattan, if the stores are satisfying customers, they'll schlep the extra block. When I lived in Forest Hills, I would go into Manhattan to shop at that Macy's because it had a better selection than A&S at Queens Center or the Macy's at Grand Av.
OTOH, when the outer end of the Jamaica el closed, it killed Gertz and May's, and a slew of other stores that depended on the el and the larger stores to bring people there. Without the el stopping right there and the hike from the Parsons Blvd stop on the E/F, people just went elsewhere.
Sterns is not a good store. I've been to the Sterns in Atlantic Center, and wouldn't be surprised if it closes also. NYC employment in general merchandise stores has been falling right through the boom. The only retail that is booming is cut-price operators such as Costco, Home Depot, Target and Walmart.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Target go after the store. If the Mall truly failed, it could be converted to office space in a heartbeat -- or torn down and replaced by a new office building if it were under-built relative to zoning.
Atlantic Center was just opened, and Queens Center was closed. It's now being demolished, or so says the sign out front.
Federated has many stores across the country. THey own 'Bon Marche', among others. You can bet that someone else will come in there, likely a Sears. Although I doubt they'll use as much space as Sterns did.
A note to John, who started this thread: You said you ate there, and used the bathroom there. Ever shop there?
-Hank
You can bet that someone else will come in there, likely a Sears.
Sears in fact has been mentioned as a possible candidate for replacing Stern's. I'd say it's within the realm of possibility because Sears (a) is not as wedded to the single-floor store layout as, say, Target or Wally World; (b) is not afraid of urban areas; and (c) doesn't have a store in Manhattan.
Nope. That's my point. Manhattan Mall has little to offer for shopping. Most people I see in there are using the restroom or heading up to the food court to eat.
[Atlantic Center was just opened, and Queens Center was closed. It's now being demolished, or so says the sign out front.]
Is the entire Queens Center mall being demolished? Or just the department store there?
(Is the entire Queens Center mall being demolished? Or just the department store there?)
I know there is a massive redevelopment planned. My understanding is that it is the former Alexanders that is being replaced, but there is construction on other parts of the site as well.
Alexander's was at QB & 63 Dr...about a half mile from Queens Center (QB & Woodhaven & what, 59Av?)
It's now a Sears, Circuit City, and Old Navy. I believe the building is new. (I just checked out the window)
The Sterns is NOT part of the Queens Center Mall, it's about a block away. It's the former A&S, a large, round building.
-Hank
No, the "round" building used to be Macy's. A&S was the "west" anchor of Queens Center. Ohrbach's was the original east.
OK, let's get this straight now. There are _TWO_ shopping centers on Queens Blvd, that are VERY near each other. The building that is being torn down is the former A&S/Sterns. The mall with JCPenney and Macy's is at Woodhaven Blvd, and is NOT being torn down.
-Hank
Queens (Center, Mall, whatever it's called these days) is at Queens & Woodhaven. It was home to A&S on its west side, has a big circular atrium in the center, and had Ohrbach's on the east side (close to what was/may still be a Sam Goody at the subway entrance across Woodhaven/59Av). There was a Macy's a few blocks west of A&S on QB (the round building, which had a round little Citibank next to it).
The former Alexander's was at 63 Dr & QB.
When my wife and I were married in 1973 we lived off of QB and 67th Rd (Knish Nosh was our corner)until moving to Suffolk County in 1976.
The Queens Center Mall opened about 1975 with A&S and Ohrback's as the lead stores. One block to the west was the almost round Macy's and the Citibank...Orginally Macy's was going to build a round building but the little old lady who lived on the corner refused to sell her house, claiming she was born in the house and would die in that house, no matter how much money Macy's offered her. Macy's built around her. If you look closely you will see a notch cut into a perfect circle in the spot that would have been on her property. When she ultimately passed on, the heirs sold it and it became a bank.
When Federated Dept. when through some mergers and acquistions, they decided to close the entire A&S chain and move some stores around. They moved Macy's from QB to QC and changed the round building to Stern's. Out in Huntington at the Walt Whitman Mall, Federated moved Macy's from the south end of the mall to the old A&S location in the north end of the mall and put a Bloomingdales in the old Macy's spot.
Alexander's at QB and 63rd Drive was built in the late 50's or early 60's. The whole chain shuttered in the late 80's. The Queens locations was subdivided into the mall it is today...Incidentally it was about 2 years ago that the parking garage collapsed at the A-site trapping several cars inside.
These malls should do well since you have the IND stopping at both, the Q60 stopping at both and a plethora of other routes stopping at one of them. Perhaps if a single developer or mall operator acquired all three properties they could institute a shuttle bus system between all of them
09/23/2000
[I know there is a massive redevelopment planned. My understanding is that it is the former Alexanders that is being replaced, but there is construction on other parts of the site as well.]
That's interesting. Queens Center Mall being demolished and a massive redevelopment replacing it.
What will they call this new redevelopment, Slattery Plaza !
Bill "Newkirk"
Stern's is very behind the times in retail. Alot of their stores are dingy, and lack the big names that attract people. Department stores that do well like Macy's are up to date. Stores like Stern's and JC Penney are in dire needs of facelifts.
And in Manhattan, especially midtown, a store has to be with the times and up to date on it's merchandise.
Personally I don't think Target will take a multi-level store like that. There's a good chance the Manhattan Mall may close and may be converted to office space. That would be bad, since it's kinda my "rest stop" when I'm in the city.
I wonder what's next. Perhaps Stern's in Flushing is next to go.
And they say the economy is great. Yeah it is, only for rich people.
Stern's is planning some major renovations of several suburban stores and is opening a new one in New Jersey. The closing of the Manhattan Mall store therefore probably is an indicator of the mall's weakness, not Stern's or the economy's. It's also worth noting that Stern's is closing a store at the Nanuet Mall in Rockland County; business at that mall has slipped considerably since the much larger Palisades Center opened not far away.
In short, we're probably looking at micro spot weaknesses, not macro weakness.
Target will fit their stores into an already-existing layout, if need be, unlike Wal-Mart, which will build from scratch and then abandon those buildings just a few years later to build a larger building from scratch.
Target and Sears are also less union-phobic than Wal-Mart is, which will keep them out of NYC for a long time to come. Little Rock-based Dillard's, Seattle-based Nordstrom's and Dallas-based Neiman Marcus would be the only upscale stores I can think of right now that are that are expanding, but I doubt any would come into the 33rd St.-Sixth Ave. location.
Target and Sears are also less union-phobic than Wal-Mart is, which will keep them out of NYC for a long time to come. Little Rock-based Dillard's, Seattle-based Nordstrom's and Dallas-based Neiman Marcus would be the only upscale stores I can think of right now that are that are expanding, but I doubt any would come into the 33rd St.-Sixth Ave. location.
I don't think any of those three department store chains are likely candidates. While Dillard's has expanded beyond its traditional southern base, they seem to be mainly a mall-anchor sort of store. It goes without saying that by "mall" I don't mean the Manhattan Mall. Neiman Marcus is much the same, with the additional twist that they cultivate an upscale image that wouldn't be much in line with the non-upscale Manhattan Mall. Nordstrom's is also mall-oriented and upscale, and in addition has been going through some rather difficult financial straits recently.
My guess is that if any store moves into the Stern's space, it'll be Sears. It's also entirely possible that the entire Manhattan Mall will be hors de combat before long. As Larry noted, office developers would love to get their hands on the mall space.
And no more Flamers (in the food court)! They got the best affordable burgers in NYC. All flame broiled (I hate fried).
Damn I'm gonna have to find a new "rest stop". Lets see, WTC mall has no where to sit, has horrible restrooms and no food court.
Trump Mall too upscale with nowhere to eat. Citicorp center don't have much.
I like the city but I like malls, and if this mall closes it'll definately keep me away from the city abit more, at least when I need to get something to eat.
Anybody know of any other decent food courts in NYC?
I have a feeling we won't be seeing the Manhattan mall in a few years.
Herald Square aint the shopping area it once was, and I think the trend toward office space will continue.
You know what that means, more people will go to the suburbs to shop.
You're in luck. A new Times Square Food Court which looks like it just opened a couple of months ago is attracting more and more customers each month. I've been there since 2 months ago when there were only a handful of people during the weekday lunch time and plenty of empty seats. Now you will have to compete for a seat just like in the Olympics. Yes it does have restrooms. Yes it does have Starbucks, Ranch1, ManchuWok, Carvel's, and others. It appears they may be opening a movie theater too (I saw a banner inside the building). The Times Square Food Court is located on 42nd St between 7th & 8th. Note, this is not a mall. It is a food court.
Several have already mentioned in this thread that larger stores (maybe we should call them mega-stores) such as Costco are doing well.
It seems to me that a typical Sterns store is not competitive with Costco for price nor is Sterns competitive with a "Mom & Pop" store for service.
It could be that stores of the Sterns size are at a disadvantage for those reasons much more so than for a change in the mass transit system.
Several have already mentioned in this thread that larger stores (maybe we should call them mega-stores) such as Costco are doing well.
It seems to me that a typical Sterns store is not competitive with Costco for price nor is Sterns competitive with a "Mom & Pop" store for service.
It could be that stores of the Sterns size are at a disadvantage for those reasons much more so than for a change in the mass transit system.
Dunno. The Stern's chain in general is doing well, opening a couple of new stores and renovating others. People have been saying for years that traditional department stores are doomed, yet most of the chains keep chugging right along. Now, the Manhattan Mall Stern's was money-losing exception to the rule. Partly this might have been a result of the store's suboptimal physical layout, and partly because Manhattan Mall is simply too downscale. I got the impression that the mall appeals mainly to lower- and lower-middle income shoppers. It doesn't seem to attract affluent Manhattanities, suburban commuters on the way to the train, or tourists.
Yeah, the Manhattan Mall layout is a PAIN. The food court is on the 7th floor, and the elevators in the mall are slow and crowded. The escalator layout is terrible.
Also the mall lacks stores that attract the trendy Manhattan shopper.
The whole mall layout needs to be changed, and it probably would help if some sort of connection to Macy's (underground passeway) could open.
But the way the whole 34th street area is going lately, the mall probably is doomed and it will become office space.
Part of the reason Federated is so willing to close the MM Stern's is that they also own Macy's, right across the street at 34th. As a matter of fact, one of the concerns expressed when Federated took over A&S, which previously ran the anchored the MM (then known as A&S Plaza) was just that - with a competing store across the street, Federated has no incentive to keep the acquired store open. Federated sought to allay these fears by converting the A&S to Sterns, but it looks like long term, the original concerns were correct.
subfan
That's not the reasoning behind it. When Federated bought Macys (or did they buy A&S?) it was quickly realized that the stores were in 90% of the same areas, and competing for the same customers. Not good for a business to be competing with itself (but don't tell that to General Motors) for the same clientele. So the decision was made to close A&S completely, and convert them to Sterns or Macys, depending on location. At Woodbridge Center, with a Macy's literally across the street at Menlo Park, the space was leased to Sears. They already had a Sterns.
-Hank
And they say the economy is great. Yeah it is, only for rich people.
Arise ye workers from your slumbers!
Arise ye prisoners of want!
Hold up. I thought the reason why one must always transfer to a MU LIRR train at Jamaica was due to the bilevels not being able to fit into penn station tunnels. However, I just saw two bilevels leave out of penn station two days ago. Did I just make this up or have there been some modifacations done to the tunnels?
Nappy
Those are dual-mode locomotives pulling the trains. It can be both diesel or electric.
By the way, they're TRI-levels!!! Thats if you count the level the doors are on!!!
That's just a rumor. The real reason most bilevels aren't found at Penn Station is that most of them are regular diesel trains. Diesels cannot travel into the tunnels because they dont have proper ventalation.
Some of the new bilevels are dual mode. That means they can run as either diesel or electric. Thus they can use the Penn Station tunnels.
:)Andrew
This needs clarification. The Bilevels are coaches pulled by Locomotives. Only dual-mode (diesel-electric/electric) locomotives can pull these trains to or from Penn Station. Diesel locomotives are not allowed in Penn Station, obviously excepting work equipment.
The cars do not fit the Flatbush Ave tunnels, nor will they fit the 63st tunnel. These are MU only.
The majority of the bi-level cars are pulled by diesel locomotives, and thus don't go to Penn.
-Hank
I thought the LIAR got rid of all its diesels (Geeps and Meeps) and bought the DM-30's to replace them. Why would they still have the old clunkers out on the rails?
The LIAR did get rid of all old equipment. They have got all new diesel engines as well as dual-modes. Perhaps you can check other posts or websites (lirrhistory ?, MTA ?) to get the designation of the diesels. They look very similar to the D-M's
They have DE-30 and DM-30s. The DE-30s are regular deisel electrics. the DM's are dual mode. Thanks to Amtrak, the LIRR needs 2 DMs per train in Penn. And there aren't many of them (like 20 or so?). Why Amtrak is like this? My guess is it's Amtrak being Amtrak, and nothing more.
They should have just A) bought all DM's or B) gone with a straight DC DM so they could just route the 3rd rail current through the control system. Much much cheaper and only slightly less effective. I don't know why they never bought after market kits for the old stuff and applied 3rd rail shoes to the 38's and 15. I can't be that complicated!
It's a hell of a lot more complicated, even more so with AC traction. For starters, you need a transformer.
-Hank
Don't use AC traction! Its not necessary. DC powered trains have provided great service for near 94 years now. If I had a choice b/t a few dual-modes w/ AC and a fleet of DM's w/ DC, I'd pick the DC. AC is only useful on large freight trains that require low speed tractive effort and hi amp tolerances. If you want to make a dual mode you take a GP-38, 4 3rd rail shoes, 4 mounts, 100 feet of heavy duty cable and some heavy duty relay equipment. You hook in the shoes to the generator output (b4 the control equipment) and when you want to go electric you cut in the circut. You might also need new traction motors. Anyway, your old, low power, non-HEP GP-38 magically turns into 4000hp (use GP-60 motors) powerhouse w/ HEP to spare. Well as long as your in 3rd rail country.
Don't use AC traction! Its not necessary. DC powered trains have provided great service for near 94 years now.
Horses on dirt roads have provided great services for millennia, why should we use these new fangled steam trains?
I'd take a DD-1 over a DM-30 any day. The added cost for AC is not worth the "advantages" AC brings. The LIAR needs one seat rides more than it needs extra tractive effort and improved acceleration.
The added up-front costs for AC are indeed worth the long-term costs of maintaining the DC equipment. There's the advantage.
-Hank
[The LIAR needs one seat rides more than it needs extra tractive effort and improved acceleration.]
What, is it so hard to change at Jamaica??
Maybe not for me, but people like my father can't stand having to change trains (cause he'll get lost of miss a connection) and would rather drive or take a much longer one seat ride than have to change trains. Furthermore a train change can eat into time, decrease average trip speed and prevent people from taking a long morning nap.
The LIAR needs one seat rides more than it needs extra tractive effort and improved acceleration.
What, is it so hard to change at Jamaica??
Changing at Jamaica is about the simplest no-brainer around. But all these big shots seem to think that dragging their suit-covered anuses five feet across the platform at Jamaica is equivalent to climbing Mt. Everest barefoot.
Well, why WOULD you want to have to change trains? Maybe you got a seat on the first one because you got on at the first stop, and the subsequent train will be standing-room-only.
Maybe you are taking a nap that you couldn't have taken at home because it takes two hours to get into New York from Eastern Long Island on the train, and the nap is the only reason you would put up with the LIRR in the first place instead of driving. Changing trains unnecessarily interrupts that nap.
Maybe you will have to leave that hot number who sat next to you and you struck up a conversation with before you get her phone number.
Maybe it is freezing cold outside, snowing, raining, or otherwise not optimum outdoors weather. You are on a warm and dry train. Why would you want to get up?
If you want more people to take public transportation, you have to limit this kind of idiosyncratic nonsense. Instead of ridiculing "big shots" with their "suit-covered anuses," you should applaud those who DO put up with this inconvenience day in and day out despite their not liking it. Other people's time, convenience, and comfort may be more valuable to them than submitting to the LIRR's ways.
Well, why WOULD you want to have to change trains? Maybe you got a seat on the first one because you got on at the first stop, and the subsequent train will be standing-room-only.
That sometimes happens in the mornings. In the afternoons, however, it's usually the opposite - the trains leaving Penn are packed, but then you get a reasonably uncrowded train at Jamaica.
Maybe you are taking a nap that you couldn't have taken at home because it takes two hours to get into New York from Eastern Long Island on the train, and the nap is the only reason you would put
up with the LIRR in the first place instead of driving. Changing trains unnecessarily interrupts that nap.
On that two-hour trip, the Jamaica change will come near the end, when you'd probably be waking up anyway. And trains aren't meant for sleeping in the first place.
Maybe you will have to leave that hot number who sat next to you and you struck up a conversation with before you get her phone number.
Ha ha. This should be largely irrelevant as it's a safe bet that the large majority of LIRR commuters are married - Long Island is hardly a hotbed of the swinging singles set.
Maybe it is freezing cold outside, snowing, raining, or otherwise not optimum outdoors weather. You are on a warm and dry train. Why would you want to get up?
Jamaica changes generally are so quick and easy that the weather shouldn't matter.
If you want more people to take public transportation, you have to limit this kind of idiosyncratic nonsense. Instead of ridiculing "big shots" with their "suit-covered anuses," you should applaud those
who DO put up with this inconvenience day in and day out despite their not liking it. Other people's time, convenience, and comfort may be more valuable to them than submitting to the LIRR's ways.
I'm all for making public transit as user-friendly as possible. But you want convenience? Driving to a station on the Montauk or Port Jefferson lines with easy free parking, boarding a pleasantly uncrowded diesel train with modern bilevel coaches and nice spacious seats, and then making a fast and easy change at Jamaica is FAR more convenient than scrambling for a parking spot at Ronkonkoma - they're all taken by 7 am - and then wedging yourself aboard a decrepit, 30-year-old electric train that has tiny seats unfit for normal human beings. Coming home? Our Ronkonkoma riders get to wait in those idiotic cows-at-the-slaugherhouse-chute half moons on the Penn Station platforms, then push and shove in the scramble for a too-small seat. Not for me, thank you very much.
Oh, and I DO applaud the people who avoid the electric lines and willingly change at Jamaica. And I'm proud to be one of them.
Jersey Mike:Don't use AC traction! Its not necessary. DC powered trains have provided great service for near 94 years now.
Pigs of Royal Island:Horses on dirt roads have provided great services for millennia, why should we use these new fangled steam trains?
You forget that with Jersey Mike's hatred of anything new, he'll probably take that literally.
Combine his "handle" of Jersey Mike with his opposition to any railroad technology devised since FDR was President and you get: Jersey Barrier! :^)
Analogue Electrical and structural engineering reached their peak b/t 1935 and 1945 and automobiles reached their peak around 1975. The best part is you don't need a PhD to fix any of it.
"Analogue Electrical and structural engineering reached their peak b/t 1935 and 1945"
Boy, I was shooting a completely random guess by saying Jersey (Barrier) Mike's cutoff was the Roosevelt presidency, but I hit it right on the head. :^)
The best part is you don't need a PhD to fix any of it.
There's a reason why you have to have more education to fix something more complicated. You have to be smarter to work on something that IS smarter.
And I don't want to fix my car myself, the only things I'd do myself are changing a flat tire and filling the tank. Since cars don't break down as often as they did during the "peak" of auto technology, it's not a problem.
It's not as easy as you make it out to be.
AC has been in use just as long. The PRR electrified with AC. The GG1 was an AC locomotive.
AC traction brings alot more than just increased traction at low speed. It also brings lower maintainance costs and increased reliability. AC motors are quieter, sealed, and require a lot less maintainance. No motor brushes to change, no vent holes to clog with ice and snow. Vastly improved acceleration and power.
You can't just slap third-rail shoes on the LIRR's piece of crap Geeps. In fact, you need several pieces of custom control equipment just to allow the power switch. You need a custom-designed truck that can hold a shoe beam. You need an insulated frame. You need a method to control the input voltage. You need resitance equipment, you need a complete additional set of circuit breakers, additional cooling fans for the equipment...
It's not impossible, but it's not very likely, either. The best way to do it is to design a new locomotive from scratch. Which they did, but didn't have to, since GE had the previously designed Genesis DM for Amtrak, which MN bought, also with AC traction equipment.
-Hank
Actually, the LIRR DMs probbably DON'T have a transformer in the traction circuits. Modern "AC" drives for motors are done via inverters - solid state devices that take a DC input "chop" it, and "invert" it into AC. At any frequency or voltage. You then feed this output into your favorite induction type motor, and away you go. There's a DC part of the chain - the main generator is really an alternator (the GP-38-2s and MP-15's had this too), which feeds a solid state rectifier bridge, and then that feeds the inverters. So, to get dual mode, you just stick the DC power in at that DC point of the chain, and the inverters handle the rest. It's actually easier than a DC dual mode is.
Why AC motors? Same reason they're all over your house - inexpensive, quiet, and sealed. No brushes to change, no flashover, VERY resistant to dirt and slush (since it's just a coil of wire, and nothing more), and more capeable of sustaining an overload. Oh yeah, and with digital controls, able to get better adhesion in many cases.
Low speed tractive effort? That's why they accelerate like crazy in electric mode.
BTW - I've not seen / been behind an AEM-7AC yet. I'm not sure WHY they're upgrading the AEM-7s, but apparently they are.
I think there are 23 DMs (500-522), and in theory there could be a total of 9 DM trainsets running around, allowing for spares. They only use 4 at a time. Also, if they budgeted them correctly during middays, those same 4 sets could provide direct service on all midday Oyster Bay trains (this is not practical for other lines).
Okay the order for new deisel's engines for LIRR that can haul the new C3 bi-level car was a split order. Most are DE30's that DO NOT have third rail capability. ONLY 23 DM30's DUAL MODE engines were ordered.
Because AMTRAK the operator of Penn says that LIRR must operate the C3 trains with TWO engines this means the max amount of Direct Deisel service to Penn Station is limited to 11 trains TOTAL. AND that is assuming only ONE DM30 is not in service or is under inspection or what have you.
I do not know why Slamtrak can operate their dual modes with only one engine but they require LIAR to have two. Supposedly to cover the thrid rail gaps when switching. I have to assume the gaps on the higher numbered tracks where LIRR runs are bigger then Amtrak tracks.
23 Engines or 11 trains is not enough for the morning rush from all the deisel lines IMHO!! If they could single engine operate into Penn with cab car 20 trips might be enough.
If they are DUAL MODE, why is Amtrak worrying about gapping out. You simply turn on the diesel engine. Amtrak seems to have no problem w/ constantly running diesels in 30th St, Chicago Union St. and Newark Penn Station, so why worry about 60 seconds of diesel use in Penn that would only happen is rare circumstances?
Newark Penn Station is elevated; 30th Street and Chicago Union Stations are on the ground; NY Penn Station is underground. Most of the noxious crap coming out of the exhaust comes out at startup.
I do not know why Slamtrak can operate their dual modes with only one engine but they require LIAR to have two.
Amtrak uses the caternary. The LIRR doesn't have that option. Some of those gaps are large enough to justify such a restriction, Amtrak's not out of their mind.
Watch the crap!
Mark
Um, dual-mode Genesis engines run off the third rail or the diesel, not the catenary.
-Hank
That is B.S. please show me a FL9 (not used anymor) Genesis or (on the way) rebuild Turbo or for that matter a non rebuilt Turbo that has cat?? (caternary)
Amtrak Genesis engines operate single engine into Penn and do not switch to overhead wires, only thrid rail.
As to crap, Amtrak runs Penn PERIOD, NJT and LIRR have to follow their rules and their dispatching and wait for them to fix anything that is broke rail wise.
Not all AMTRAK uses cant. the Genisis locos from Albany use THIRD RAIL.
I would like to know the rational for the two locomotives. I assumed one at each end of the train for rapid direction change.
Elias
DE30AC (400 series)are deisel mode only and do not operate into Penn Station.
DM30AC (500 series)are dual mode and do operate into Penn Station. However, their use into Penn Station is generally limited to Peak travel periods,
I was reading the new, and very funny paperback, "The Essential Groucho" (by Stefan Kanfer/Vintage Books, June, 2000).
Toward the back there is a listing of some of Groucho's funniest quips or lines of dialogue from the long-running TV Classic.
Here's two I found:
Finneman (Groucho's foil): "Well, Groucho, we're invited some railroad men to be on our show tonight."
Groucho: "Do you keep track of them? That's the tie that binds."
The other a one-liner:
Groucho, to a father of triplets: "You're been married fifteen months and you have three daughters?! This is indeed the age of rapid transit."
Just thought I'd share some "professional humor" for the day.
BMTman
>>> some of Groucho's funniest quips or lines of dialogue from the long-running TV Classic <<<
I think you had to hear (or remember) the delivery of the jokes to really appreciate them.
Tom
As Dick Cavett used to say- the mans voice alone was funny.....and could make the worst jokes funny as all hell...
This message has absolutely no point whatsoever. Do not respond.
Says you?
You don't think the site is slow enough without garbage like this?
-Dave
Like that furnace commercial used to say, ATTABOY,DAVE. Now Spunky, Listen to the nice train dude and clean up your act.
"The ROCK thinks you should fire him, Vince"
It does too have a point... quite possibly, it is a Socialogical experiment to see if people do specifically what they are told not to do. So far, 5 people have done so. Perhaps signs should go up all over the subway: "Please don't keep it clean", or "don't worry about getting caught while tagging." If enough people read this, it may indeed prove a useful tactic.
How's that for turning a useless thread into a topic for discussion?
Then why'd you post this?
Here's one for you New Yorkers. I read somewhere on this site some time back that there is the possibility of extending the terminal of the Q from Queensbridge to Continental Avenue. Anything to that at all? If such a plan is implemented wouldn't it mean that the R, G, and Q would all be headed out in that direction? And isn't the E sharing tracks most of that way as well. It would seem that there would be a very crowded system with four lines, or are some others going to be changed around? I'd appreciate any info that you guys can provide on this.
The track that shuttle runs from Manhattan to Queensboroplaza on is about to be connected to the E/F, i.e. Queens Blvd. line. This will terminate the G just before Queensboro Plaza. Check out the history post on this site for more detail.
Mr t__:^)
I remember a recent post that said that the Q would only run to 57th St. via Broadway Exp. He got the info from either a memo or his supervisor.
This topic is the most popular persisting thread on this board.
Do you read ANYTHING except for things about the Sea Beach Line?
Pigs: My thread has nothing to do with the Sea Beach line. It does concern the Q and other lines. Yes I do read other threads that have nothing to do with the Sea Beach, but I'm proud to say that when the Sea Beach is mentioned on any thread, Sea Beach Fred comes to mind. I like it that the Sea Beach and Fred are interchangeable, but my thread about the Queensbridge to Continental is something I read about previously but hadn't heard much of anything on that line lately.
There is a running thread called Re: R-110, R-142, R-143 R-149/151, R-160 & The 63rd Street Connection, The Juice!
The topic has never died down, you're just not paying attention.
*that* thread has been going on so long that it has wiskers growing all over the place, and I sort of stopped following it. So, like Fred, I am pleased to see the topic condensed into a heading of its own.
Although I suspect that most of this is just alot of guess work until the trains actually start rolling, and even then, I suspect that they will tweak the schedule rather markedly.
Since none of those trains will ever stop out here, I just keep reading these threads and do my railfan work from across the country.
Elias
The G will terminate at Court Sq. 24 hours a day. That is guaranteed. If they do decide to run the Q to Forest Hills, then it will very likely run local in Queens.
Thanks. That sounds pretty definite to me, but it does shorten the G line considerably. Are they going to make up for it by extending that line deeper into Brooklyn, like Church Avenue, for instance?
No. The G line will still operate from Court Sq. to Smith-9 Sts. at this time. Mainly because the TA wants to implement 24 hour OPTO on the G.
Forgive my ignorance, but what's OPTO?
I still think they should terminate the G at 46th St/Broadway, Queens (where there is a turnaround.) As it is, they probably should change the name of the G to "Brooklyn Crosstown" since it is all but abandoning Queens.
Heck. If they built a transfer at Fulton and Lafayette (between the G and the A and C) they could hack this line down even further.
Andrew:)
OPTO = One Person Train Operation.
As it is, they probably should change the name of the G to "Brooklyn Crosstown" since it is all but abandoning Queens.
At this rate, they might as well call it an 'S'.
Um, I think Court Square and 21 St-Van Alst are both in Queens.
OTOH, they should at least extend the G into Church Ave, alongside the F. Transfers would be available at 4th Ave for the M, N and R, which the G would lose because of the shortening in Queens.
Good thing they are running the V thru 53rd and running it local, which makes it a safety net of sorts for thru G riders.
So 23rd-Ely/Court Sq signs would read as such: E G V 7
Queens Plaza: E F R V
Local stations (36th - 67th Ave): Q R V (assuming Q goes local)
This will probably look very strange.
Will the Q be extended to 179th St, and let the F run Express all the way to 179th St? Hillside Express needs to be put back.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Whatever happened to the proposed Stillwell Avenue closing? I was under the impression that a massive rebuilding project was on tap for the Coney Island Station. But I haven't heard of anything about this in months. Was the proposed plan sidetracked? It would be nice to see Stillwell as a station that looks like a fashion plate instead of an eyesore.
The project is still going to happen. However, the terminal is not going to be closed in its entirety for any part of the duration of the project. In fact, if full closure were ever part of the plan (which I don't believe it was), it was dropped very early in the process.
The Sea Beach Line, though, will be terminating at 86th Street for the duration of the project. West End trains, at various points in the construction, will use all eight tracks (i.e. Tracks #1/2, Tracks #3/4, Tracks #5/6, or Tracks #7-8 {their usual tracks}).
David
I think the new minor league ballpark is going to open @ Steeplechase next year. This should increase ridership somewhat @ Stillwell. I hope the TA is keeping this in mind when the renovation takes place.
Was the Pullman-Standard Co that built many subway cars the same company as the Pullman that built sleeping cars for the railroads?
Yes, Pullman-Standard, which was forcibly broken off from the Pullman Company by Justice Department action in the 1940s, built cars for both transit and main-line railroads. Pullman and later Pullman-Standard built more than just sleepers, by the way, though the Pullman Company was the _operator_ of sleepers and some parlor cars.
Pullman-Standard's last intercity equipment was, I believe, the original batch of Amtrak Superliners in the late Seventies. They lost a bundle on the deal, and concluded that the small remaining intercity passenger car market wasn't worth the effort.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Thanks Alan! I guess that also answers the question as to why some railroad passenger cars were lettered Pullman where I thought the operating railroad's name should be. Pullman still actually owned those cars!
actually it is more complex. 1some cars carried Pullman on the letterboard even though the car was owned by (for instance) Union Pacific. 2. Others carried owner or "train" ID -- Califiornia Zephyr-- and then respectively Pullman or their id at the ends in small type but were "leased to the Pullman Co" Pullman, as the 'outside contractor' employed the porters AND a Pullman Conductor who managed them, and collected tickets/accomodation coupons on those cars. The rail tickets were turned over to the operating rr, the accomodation charge went to Pullman.
david,
Thanks so much for all the information! That is one of the many wonders of this site. I think I have learned more here than I learned in a lifetime of first being a subway fan and then a railfan.
Thank You!
gladto oblige. Indeed, sharinf the knowledge--memorizing the books in F 451...
Yes it is. Pullman is also the town where Washington State University is located, where I will be operating from next year...
Oh, here is the URL for the image
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/brooklyn.html
Just got this from my son in College Park, MD.
http://www.diamondbackonline.com/00-09-21/news3.html
Go to that link and it will tell you about the new proposed Purple Line.
Chuck Greene
There's been talk over and over for the 9 years I've been in DC about various configurations for a purple line. Most typically, it has referred to a line following the Capital Beltway around the region. It has also referred to a spur off the Red Line through Georgetown, connecting up with the Blue/Orange and continuing on to VA. It's also been used to refer to a branch off the Orange line at Falls Church heading on to Dulles via Tyson's Corner. But, as yet, it's really nothing more than talk.
The biggest factor is funding. Estimates for a "belt line" run into the tens of billions over a 20 year period. Following closely is the route and actual construction -- the area is so densely populated that construction would be highly disruptive and be an open invitation for every NIMBY around to come out and bitch. Were MD to go ahead and build something on their own, that poses greater challenges for incorporating it down the road should a larger line be agreed upon. On top of that, even though there is a lot of cross-county traffic between Bethesda and Silver Spring, the plans to build a road connecting them was just killed last year, and likely won't come up again until a new governor comes in.
So, it's not likely there's going to be any commitment to build it anytime soon.
The Dulles extension is the white line. White line signs exist for the bulkhead doors.
I've gotten some stuff in from the Dulles Corridor project from time to time and it always refers to the purple line.
Furthermore, with all the politically inept, er, correct types here, they would be sure to raise a stink if it were to be called the "white" line.
If it was the white line, how would it be seen on a map? If it had an outline, it would be the two thin black lines line.
White? ythat's so gay, what happens when you have a white background on the map???
I just pulled a copy of the Metro Pocket Guide out of my desk, and the Metrorail map does indeed have a white background. Besides, purple and brown are two perfectly useable colors that Metro hasn't used before resorting to the "non-colors" of black, gray, and white.
BTW, Spunky, nobody uses "gay" to mean "lame" or "half-assed" or "stupid" anymore. Not unless they want to get a bunch of complaining e-mails unrelated to their original message. :^)
BTW, Spunky, nobody uses "gay" to mean "lame" or "half-assed" or "stupid" anymore. Not unless they want to get a bunch of
complaining e-mails unrelated to their original message. :^)
Actually, youths of high-school and junior-high age seem to be using the term a lot nowadays, in precisely that context.
Face it, it will be the "never going to happen in my lifetime" line. All they do here is talk talk talk about how to improve transportation without doing anything about it.
Doesn't Montgomery County still own a right-of-way swath of land for its stillborn "Connector" program? Maybe instead of light rail they'll connect the two Red line forks and make it easier for people to get to Wheaton from Rockville by not having to go through downtown.
Chris
"Owning the land" versus being able to do anything with it are two entirely different matters, especially in the DC area. What killed the last attempt at the Intercounty Connector was a fight between those who wanted automobiles only versus those who demanded some kind of rapid transit solution included with it. There's a kind of LA thing going on in these parts -- lots of folks bitch about sitting on roads where they can see subway trains zipping past them, but refuse to see the sense in taking the train to avoid sitting in traffic. Instead, they would rather Metro spend millions on putting up barrier walls between the tracks and the automobile lanes so they don't have to see a dozen or more trains zoom past them while they haven't moved 10 feet for an hour.
I say, f* them -- not only laugh at them for the wall idea, but put signs up chiding them with slogans like "if you were on the train, you wouldn't be sitting here with nothing better to do than come up with dumbass ideas like walls in the first place".
I say, f* them -- not only laugh at them for the wall idea, but put signs up chiding them with slogans like "if you were on the train, you wouldn't be sitting here with nothing better to do than come up with dumbass ideas like walls in the first place".
MARTA has a similiar ad in their subway cars. It says "Wave at the people sitting in traffic. (They hate that)"
From reading various threads here, I was thinking about various backup systems that transit systems running on anything from cab signalling up (in technology) when the ATO, ATP, or other form of advanced signalling is down. I was going over the Ron Deiter WMATA book last night and saw that:
-While WMATA has wayside signals at all interlockings, their only purpose is to tell operators to look at their consoles. The book makes no mention of trips during times of emergency to be used before interlockings.
-The only accident, involving bad operation and resulting in the death of passangers, could have possibly been prevented by emergency trips. Since the ATC was down in that area, and the train involved in the accident ran a red onto a switch set the wrong way, if the train could have been halted before it ran the switch, the operator may have read the switch and not proceeded.
What kinds of backup systems do transit systems use?
Will the Frankford el have any of these backups in their ATO construction? If not, I think I may write a letter to SEPTA about this, citing what I cited above, if my facts are correct.
What is your obsession with manual trips? They are not necessary for safe operation and can only hinder things. Real railroads have been working just fine with out manual trips. In the unlikley event of an ATO failure a driver would have to disobey at least 3 sets of ATO-failure related rules to even possibly crash the train. The only thing the trips would be good for is popping up when they are not needed. The better thing to do is make all switches trailable to a train can't derail on a switch set against it.
>>The only thing the trips
would be good for is popping up when they are not needed. The better
thing to do is make all switches trailable to a train can't derail on a
switch set against it. <<
I disagree. tripper arms,like unto earlier wayside 'enforcement' hardware used on mainline rr's are a safety backup to attempt to compensate for "operator error" Not much different from seatbelts.
A rapid transit system is not a "real railroad"? Elevateds and subways deal with far more traffic on closer headways than mainline railroads. It's far better to have seemingly redundant safety systems than too few precautions in place. I believe that the engineers who designed rapid transit interlocking systems many decades ago knew what they were doing.
We are not dealing with an old manual transit system. We are talking about modern ATO lines. First you need a complete cab signal failure. Then the driver has a slow speed order, then the driver has to ignore fixed distant signs that instruct him to approach the interlocking prepared to stop, then the driver has to run the red signal. Don't forget that in case of cab signal failure the trains will be running on the maunal block system and headways will be vastly longer. All all these "thens" and "only ifs" makes the cost of trip arms and trip devices on locomotives unable to be justified.
Here's a simple solution. You have well trained and well diciplined drivers who will obey the rules and trailable switches incase the driver slides a bit too far on ice/snow.
Even if an employee got good training, he may forget it during full days of sitting back and letting the ATO do its work.
This does not mean that I advocate the lack of technology.
Trains with ATO will frequently have the conductor riding in the Locomotive jeeping an extra eye on things.
Elias
Meriden Mike: You have overlooked one very critical function
of positive stops at interlockings. Conventional ASC systems
do not provide absolute stop protection. If, for example, at
an interlocking with a trailing switch a train is being held
at the homeball so that another train may cross in front of it,
there is nothing, other than the engineer's obedience, to prevent
that train from fouling and colliding with the other train.
All ASC will do is give a 0 code (restricting) which limits
the train to 15 MPH.
On PATCO a loss of Cab Signal will stop the train and limit it to 0 mph unless the driver cut out the ATC. I assume that the more advanced BART and DC Metro are the same way. The 15 mph restricting applies to RR cab signaling. I have no problem w/ trip stops on older lines as long as drivers can cut it out in case of emergency.
I don't know whether PATCO has changed operating procedures, but in its early days I was riding when lightning took out the signal system. When the train finally moved, it followed a supervisor who walked in front of it. I got off at Ferry Ave and walked home to Collingswood.
Once whenI was riding we had just left Ferry Ave when we had a loss of cab signal right over switch 53E. Well the driver futzed around, called CENTER and eventually they gave him permission to cut out his ATC and move past it. Also the line down to the yard dosen't have any ATC and every time the drivers want to go down to the yard CENTER gived them permission to cut out ATC and procede down 1 to the yard.
PATCO, as far as I know, does not use trips with their ATO (still, it would be a good idea). I do not know if SEPTA plans to use trips on their ATO on the MFL (SEPTA should install ATO and cab signals on The Broad Street Subway first).
(SEPTA should install ATO and cab signals on The Broad Street Subway
first)
Why? The B-IVs are 20 years old, and probably not capable of ATO operation. The M-4s were ordered a few years ago with ATO in mond.
The M4 have the same type of CSS setup as the Rt 100 trains do (the RT 100 also has no trips) with little LED's on the speed-o-meter that light up and show the allowed speed. On the RT 100 there is a "Safety Stop" where the cab signal cuts out (b4 the dead end at 69th St.) and the train comes to a halt. After a few seconds the signal is restored. Remember that under normal conditions a loss of cab signal acts as a trip stop.
(SEPTA should install ATO and cab signals on The Broad Street Subway
first)
Why? The B-IVs are 20 years old, and probably not capable of ATO operation. The M-4s were ordered a few years ago with ATO in mind.
Just to change the subject a little, can anyone think of any major accidents that have occured (accidents in this case being a derailment or crash that has killed, injured, or come close to injuring passangers) on ATO lines other than the WMATA incident. As far as I know, nothing has happened on PATCO, and I don't know of anything on BART, but someone please clue me in if any ATO/cab signalling system has had an accident.
Also, did the recent paris derailment occur on an ATO line?
Also, did the recent paris derailment occur on an ATO line?
No.
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
In Boston the ATO system in use does have trips at interlockings. One reason for this is that when the cab signal bypass is activated, the maximum speed allowed is 25 mph. With the cab signal active, and an interlock not clear, the train gets a 25 code, followed by a 10 code, followed by a stop-no-code, some distance before the signal. This even applies to stations like Ashmont, where the 10 code starts about 200' before the platform. Thus, despite the fact that he has to stop anyway, the train creeps into the station. On bypass, the train can proceed at 25 right up to the signal so the trip is still necessary.
For any of you wondering when the 63 St.connector will open, it's not scheduled to open in early November when the new pick starts. The TA has created the following schedule effective November 5th:
B: Will run to 145 St. or Bedford Park Blvd. at all times(except nights)
Q: normal service
S: Will operate at all times when Q service is not operating. The S train will run between 21st Street Queensbridge and 34th Street via the Broadway line.
However, the TA has created all the S crew runs as 700/800/900 temporary jobs meaning that they could be cancelled when the connector is ready and F service will operate via 63rd Street.
>>S: Will operate at all times when Q service is not operating. The S train will run between 21st Street Queensbridge and 34th Street via the Broadway line.<<
What train will serve 57th St.-Sixth Ave. when the Q isn't running, or is the station going to go to sleep at nights when the new pick starts?
The 57th Street station will be open only when the Q is operating and will be closed all other times.
While going through Greller and Watson's, "THE BROOKLYN ELEVATED", I found a rather interesting photo and caption on the upper right of page 56. It shows a picture of a Fulton El train at Fulton Ferry. If you have the book, read the caption under the picture. The second sentence says it all: "Fulton Ferry was closed as a station and used only as a cutback on the Fulton El." Thank you James C. Greller and Edward B. Watson! Now all I need is that well-before-1940 closing date.
As an interesting side note, I also read that not one single passenger rode the last Fulton Ferry on Saturday, January 19th, 1924. That was in Brian Cudahy's, "OVER AND BACK", about the N.Y.C. ferries. It's on page 229.
ELKEEPER
Hello Elkeeper!
Where can I get a copy of "The Brooklyn Elevated".
Thanks,
Elias
Elias, the publisher is: N.J.International Inc., 77 West Nicholai St., Hicksville, NY 11801. You could also try Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble on line. Good luck!
ELKEEPER
Brian Cudahy's, "OVER AND BACK"
Is this a recent book? I never heard of it, but it sounds like I want to get a copy!
--Mark
Old book... Fordham University Press, 1990... the best price (between barnesandnoble.com, amazon.com, and chapters.ca) is $39.95 from barnesandnoble.com. bibliofind.com and abebooks.com are both listing used copies at $25 and on up into the stratosphere.
Might just need to order myself a copy as well...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No New York City transit fan should be without a copy. Try Amazon or Barnes and Noble on line. I got my copy at the now gone BROADWAY LIMITED store in Rockefeller Center. What a transit store that was! One time I had a long chat with the late Roger Arcara about why the 6th Eve El. was the first to go. I wish he were still alive to answer my demolition date for the 9th Ave. El and Fulton Ferry closing to passenger questions. He was a brillant man!!!
ELKEEPER
I believe the 6th Ave. el went first to facilitate the building of the IND subway directly beneath it. The city had to shore up the Fulton St. el when building the IND line under it, at a time when the BMT was fighting "consolidation". The bankrupt IRT was pretty much in city hands and it was probably easier to demolish their el.
The 6th Ave. El, like the Fulton St. El had been shored up also. Yes, the construction of the 6th Ave. IND subway was a factor in the El's demise. Apparently the City cleverly pitted the Manhattan El bondholders against the bankrupt IRT. Bear in mind that the IRT never owned the Manhattan Els- they were leased and bonds were issued. It was those bond payments, the Depression, and the 5 cent fare that sent the IRT into financial ruin in 1932. I often wonder if the 6th Ave. El would have kept running if the talks had broken down or stalled. Would it have lasted until the December 15th, 1940 opening of the 6th Ave. Subway? I guess we'll never know. The late Roger Arcara told me that the 6th Ave. El was also chosen because it had never been rebuilt and that the crossbeams were starting to bow. As a consequence, the inside rail of each of the two tracks was slightly lower that the outside rails. That meant excessive wear on inside mounted 3rd rail and sporadic loss of power on outside mounted 3rd rail. The inside track rails were shimmed to make them level, but this was a temporary fix at best. With its temporary patchwork, it was the logical candidate to be the first to go.The City gave the Manhattan bondholders 3 1/2 million dollars for the El. It was valued at 12 1/2 million, but 9 million went for back taxes. So, Chris, what you wrote and what I heard from Roger Arcara should be the full story of the 6th Ave. El's demise. Anyone else wish to add something?
ELKEEPER
Didn't the construction of Rockefeller Center also factor in? I don't think this area of land would've been chosen with an ugly, obsolete elevated structure running over 6th Ave.
I also noticed that the current 8th Ave/6th Ave. IND layout is almost identical to that of the 6th Ave el/9th Ave. el's layout.
Rockefeller Center was opened in the early 1930's. I believe that the 6th Ave. Subway wasn't started until 1936. Radio City Music Hall had a series of moving lights, which was supposed to imitate a moving 6th Ave El train. It was located over the stage and we'll probably hear from some old timers who remember it. The 8th Ave. Subway was being completed two blocks away at the time. I don't think the interests at Rockefeller Center cared at that particular time. They had to be aware of its planned construction. But the 6th Ave El was razed after an agreement was reached with the Manhattan El bondholders and the Interborough. From what I've read, those talks were very difficult,at times and were broken off more than once. Ditto for the BMT. The distrust was actually more between the Manhattan El bondholders and the IRT. There was even a lawsuit filed by the Manhattan El investors against the IRT over proposed World's Fair services. This occurred in 1936. As I wrote in a previous message, the shored-up 6th Ave. El might have lasted right upto the December 15th, 1940 opening of its replacement subway. LaGuardia must have had some excellent people in those complex talks!
ELKEEPER
The line followed 6th Ave from beginning to end, and then at the time of construction or shortly after, it was merged into the 9th Ave system at the southern end first. I will have to look up to see when the 53rd St connection was completed to effect the northern connection.
The 6th Ave El was built as an iron structure resembling similar structures built in Europe at the time. It would be interesting to note the engineering specs for the structure, that is, its load capacity, the amount of vibration it could withstand, and the expansion cooeficients that would determine that actual useful life of spans. Elevated structures of long lengths have an additional problem of continual vibration along the line, with as many as 8 or more trains moving, starting & stopping along the entire (tangent) structure. For almost 20 years of its existance, steam locomotives pounded the structure. The change to electric power was probably just in the nick of time as far as the useful life of the structure was concerned. Since the line was a straight line for most of its length,
it would seem that cable propulsion would have a preferred method in terms of reducing the amount of vibration over the line. Probably, economic interests won out in that respect, in that the investors wanted thier mone back as soon as possible.
Thank you for sharing what Roger Arcara told you. I knew Roger for a long time and respected his accuracy. He told me the same thing he told you. Go with what Roger said - he was honest and thorough, and is sorely missed today. We miss him!
Of the routes approved by the Board of Transportation in the 1920s, only the 6th Avenue trunk route was still unfinished as of 1937. There was good reason - this line would have to tunnel over or under an aqueduct, the BMT Broadway subway, the Long Island Railroad and Pennsylvania Railroad in the vicinity of 34th St, the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad (also known as the Hudson Tubes, and now called the PATH), the IRT Flushing Line, and the 6th Avenue El. In 1935, the city reached an agreement with the Hudson and Manhattan to relocate its midtown terminal to 33rd Street and close the 28th Street station. The original plan for the 6th Avenue line was to use the H&M tracks as the local tracks, and build two new express tracks between 8th St. and 33rd St. It didn't happen; the H&M was built to IRT specifications, and it would cost too much to retrofit the existing tunnels. Instead, the 6th Avenue line would have two tracks straddling the H&M from 8th Street to 33rd Street and express tracks would be built later. Construction began on March 15th, 1936.
During construction, streetcar service along 6th Avenue was terminated, with the city having the option to restore it upon termination of construction, or outright abandon it. The city wanted to tear down the 6th Ave. El right away and save on the costs of shoring it up while construction proceeded underneath it. Two years later, after much wrangling, the city bought the El from the IRT for $12.5 million and terminated operation of it on December 5th, 1938.
It was this wrangling that forced the City to shore up the El while the IND was constructed underneath - they never wanted to do it in the first place. The El's remnants were sold to Japan. The 6th Avenue trunk line, consisting of two tracks, opened for business on December 15th, 1940. It would be 28 years later that full express service would begin under 6th Avenue.
--Mark
Excellent, Mark! The City apparently forgot that the H&M was deliberately built so that their tunnels could not be modified to take full size railroad passenger cars. This construction was done so that one of the railroads ending on the Jersey side would not take over the H&M to run their trains into the City. Construction of the 6th Ave. local tracks must have started too late for the City to change their plans. That's why the 23rd Street station has the platforms on the right hand (local) side and the 14th Street station, origionally planned to be an express stop, has them on the left hand side. Knock down the wall, expand and incorporate the H&M side platforms into the new IND platforms, and there's our new express stop. But someone goofed- there's an 18 inch difference between the IND and the H&M platform heights! Oops!!!
ELKEEPER
The track layout at 14th St. is partly due to the proximity of a humungous water main, IIRC. The tracks were placed as far away from the main itself as possible.
Currently, there is provision to convert both the 14th and 23rd St. stations to express stops if the need were to arise.
IIRC, the 9th Ave. el remained in operation until the city took over the IRT in 1940. There are before and after photos in New York in the Forties from the photographer's apartment window. The before photo has a three-car train plying the rails while the after photo offers a view of the el being dismantled.
Elkeeper: I believe that in an earlier post you referenced a picture on page 6 of the "Tracks of New York,Number 2" showing the Fulton Street Terminal with a stairway to the eastbound platform reading "Station Closed." This picture clealy shows a ferryboat in the slip so it would have to date to sometime before the demise of the Fulton Street Ferry in 1924. However the caption above the photo states that service was miantained to the riverfront until 1940.
I also have a 1939 BMT Map which contains several references to #13 Fulton Street Line trains running to either Sands Street or Fulton Ferry.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Turn your 1939 BMT Worlds Fair map over and try to find a station marked FULTON FERRY. There is a little red spur to a station with no name. An oversight? I assume that you have a copy of the color 1924 BMT map in one of your books. Take a look at that one. No FULTON FERRY name on that one either. Now look at the TRACKS OF NY picture. Assuming there was passenger service, where is the covered stairway to get to and from the remaining eastbound platform? Get a good magnifying glass and take a look at what appears to be the remains of a stairway- after you have climbed over that wooden fence.Why Alan Kahn and Jack May wrote that caption- I don't know. The area was so desolate that the last ferry (01/19/24) didn't carry one single passenger at 7 PM in the evening! If I'm wrong and this station was in use until 1940, who used it? Did you check out Greller & watson's, THE BROOKLYN ELEVATED on page 56? The motorman looks like the Maytag repairman! I have a photo in Cudahy's OVER AND BACK showing what appears to be a one car El shuttle- the photo is dated 1901! I'm sure someone will come up with a date for us. Perhaps Mr. Kahn or Mr. May?
ELKEEPER
Turn your 1939 BMT Worlds Fair map over and try to find a station marked FULTON FERRY. There is a little red spur to a station with no name. An oversight? I assume that you have a copy of the color 1924 BMT map in one of your books. Take a look at that one. No FULTON FERRY name on that one either. Now look at the TRACKS OF NY picture. Assuming there was passenger service, where is the covered stairway to get to and from the remaining eastbound platform? Get a good magnifying glass and take a look at what appears to be the remains of a stairway- after you have climbed over that wooden fence.Why Alan Kahn and Jack May wrote that caption- I don't know. The area was so desolate that the last ferry (01/19/24) didn't carry one single passenger at 7 PM in the evening! If I'm wrong and this station was in use until 1940, who used it? Did you check out Greller & watson's, THE BROOKLYN ELEVATED on page 56? The motorman looks like the Maytag repairman! I have a photo in Cudahy's OVER AND BACK showing what appears to be a one car El shuttle- the photo is dated 1901! I'm sure someone will come up with a date for us. Perhaps Mr. Kahn or Mr. May?
ELKEEPER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELKEEPER: Maybe what you should turnover is a new attitude. If you had already determined in your own mind that the station was closed along with the ferry why on earth did you ask for the closing date. Several people here attempted to provide you with information only to have you scream blashphemy at then. Have you done any research into this? Have you gone to the Brooklyn libraries? Have you checked back issues of the Brooklyn Eagle for the period. I could site you at least 20 references for the 1940 date by many respected historians.
You seem to be very selective in what you present as facts. At first you champion the photo in the Tracks of New York but then discount the caption by the authors. You state that the BMT map shows no station name but ignore the fact that the service guide several times refers to trains terminating at Fulton Ferry. Why would the BMT list service to a station that they no longer serve?
It may all be as you say but until you can provide some competent,documented facts lay off the spleen and the invective.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Jeez, some insignificant and long gone staton creating such hostility? We railfans must be a stubbrn bunch. I guess pistols at dawn will do, right?
LOL
60 years is a longtime and many of the people who were old enough to remember the els are now residents of Woodlawn or Cypress Hills. I remember stories of the els from my long gone NYC relatives, but my major source of information is the writing of others. Elkeeper wants to generate a factual record of the els - more power to him. Redbird has a lot of information, but even the BMT's own map is unclear. Everybody, relax, even if we don't have a definitive answer to the question, some very good information has been posted in this thread!
Gerry
Gerry, has it occurred to you that we ARE relaxing? I, myself, have learned a lot from the people who agree and disagree with me. A lively exchange of ideas will always lead to differing points. I am a newcomer to this site but viewing the responses, particularly those which disagree with me, are educational for all. THAT is what SubTalk is all about, isn't it?
Respectfully,
ELKEEPER
It bothers me somewhat when people get a bit to personal or arrogant in their postings. I am not trying to discourage anyone from contributing, just to encourage people to take care to keep the exchanges on the high ground.
Gerry
I'm a relative newcomer to this site, Chris, but I'm glad I found it. A lively exchange of differing ideas gets everything thinking and that is one of the main reasons for this site. Right? Personally, some of the postings that disagree with my beliefs have sent me scurrying to do additional research in my personal transit collection.It's gotten my mental gears turning and, if it's done the same for others, so much the better!!!
ELKEEPER
For some years, it was all gloom and doom regarding whether train service would be viable on the MB in the long run. There were doomsday-type scenarios of what would happen in Brooklyn if the bridge was permanently closed to B, D, N and Q trains.
Lately, the postings talk of the bridge track "flip", as if it is just around the corner, i.e., the south tracks are ready for testing at a 30 train per hour rate (presumably in one direction).
Does anyone know officially what is the status of the MB southside repair? Is it a total failure? Is it nearly completed? There seems to be two opposite views of the subject.
Thanks,
Mike Rothenberg
Hi Mike,
Z-man seems to know all about this. However, as a daily rider on the "B" train, I notice the following:
(1)-The trackwork was completed some time ago.
(2)-The painting in and around the track area is almost completed.
(3)-Almost all of the re-inforcement underneath the trackbed is complete.
(4)-The signal upgrades are incomplete.
(5)-The pedestrian walkway is still incomplete.
JDL
The issue with the MB is whether or not the repair will work. They have tried to stop the twisting and cracking before, but they've just tranferred the stress to somewhere else, leading to more twisting and cracking. More and more money has been poured in. Engineers have said privately that sooner or later the trains will have to come off the bridge. Publicly, they've been told to fix it since there is no alternative.
If there is a catastrophy it will be a wimper, not a bang. The city will keep pouring more and more money into the bridge, which will be constantly disrupted and under construction, until a problem hits in a recession and the money isn't available to solve it.
The south side is allegedly "done". If cracks start to re-appear at some point in the next decade, it will be very bad news.
When the painting is finished, it will be time to rebuilt the north side for the second time.
Well, it seems to me, that the city, the state, the nimbys and probably the fed too should bite the bullet big-time and build several new tunnels.
It took ages and grief to build the 63rd street tunnel, yet our forefathers put in all of those BMT & IRT tunnels in with in a few short years. And then the IND put in three more. You really cannot expect me to believe that tunnel building capibilities have decreased during the past century, so the problem sits squarely in the politicians laps. They need to cut the BS and do the job at hand, otherwise all three will be in NYC is more and more bickering and finger-pointing and mud fighting while the city withers due to a lack of circulation.
Elias
The MB reconstructions started in 1983. Which means the problems on the MB were probably noticed in 1978 or sooner. Constructing subway tunnels requires billions of dollars and political will. Where do you get the billions from? And in the entirely unlikely event you get the money, what elected official is going to support a project that will take at least ten years to complete and probably require some condemnation of private properties. It will be in the courts for years. No easy solution for the MB problem.
The big factor in the Manhattan Bridge mess is that the City owns the bridge, but the state runs the MTA, and the rest of the state hates the City. The MTA would rather put money into improvments for the suburbs, and for Queens, than for Brooklyn. So it simply demands that the City fix the bridge. For it's part, the City doesn't want to pay for a replacement tunnel while the State pays for improvements elsewhere. We do enough of that already.
Pataki is expecting to shift the blame for service loss to the Mayor. The Mayors hope to be out of office. It's worked for two of them so far.
One way to force the political will to build the tunnels is to simply condemn the bridge and force Brooklyn residents to deal with the dramatic losses of service on the BMT thru Dekalb. 6 months, that's all it'll take ...
How long dows it tke to build a new bridge vs building a new tunnel. With the technology in this day in age I would figure roughly around 4-5 years for both. The question is which is cheaper. Damn the NIMBY's, "The needs of the many, outweighs the needs of the few" Leonard Nimoy as Spock in Star Trek II Wrath of Kahn.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
The cost of a new bridge is prohibitive and has been for 60 years. The largest cost is the approach ROW.
A tunnel replacement for the rail tracks is a viable alternative. It was first proposed back in the Mayor O'Dwyer's administration.
If all the money used on the useless 18 year rehab was instead used on construction of 4 tunnels to replace the bridge tracks, they'd be pretty much paid for and nearly complete today.
You got that right!!!
Yeah, but the approach ROW (Canal St., Flatbush Ave.)
already exists!
I have ALWAYS thought that a tunnel should be built for the tracks now on the MB.
A tunnel would be much faster, and more reliable than an old, delapidated bridge.
Everytime this subject comes up, I start foaming at the mouth. If they can't fix the south side in 14 years, then what does that say of the north side when that side closes for "repairs". I wonder if it is possible to put both tracks at the center of the bridge. It would save wear and tear, but would the cost be prohibitive?
The tracks should have been put in the center right from the start.
Where is the money going to come from, not from Albany or a Republican Congress
Probably either from a printing press or off a tree.:-)
14 years is a long time. It's prepostrous that the work couldn't be finished in that length of time.
Hi Fred,
One way to take action is to have railfans have riders sign petitions. Two or three fans per Sea Beach station during the morning and evening rushes. A good 20,000 signatures should do the trick. Also, there's a NY state senator very sympathetic to the cause. His name is Vincent Gentile. I see him in church at least once a month. If anyone wants to contact him, please let me know, and I will get his address.
JDL
Time for a major public debate on this issue.
(One way to take action is to have railfans have riders sign petitions. Two or three fans per Sea Beach station during the
morning and evening rushes. A good 20,000 signatures should do the trick. Also, there's a NY state senator very sympathetic to the cause. His name is Vincent Gentile. I see him in church at least once a month. If anyone wants to contact him, please let me know, and I will get his address.)
One reason Brooklyn got into this mess is that it is represented by shortsighted hacks. Where was Vincent Gentile for the past 18 years? In the late 1990s, the MTA issued a report calling for the construction of the Rutgers to DeKalb connection to improve service and protect against the partial or complete loss of the bridge. But this improvement was left out of both the 5 and 20 year plan. Why? Aside from a few bureaucrats, no one else cared. Certainly not the legislators from Brooklyn, who are more concerned with a few member items for their friends and help in keeping potential opponents off the ballot.
Legislators from Long Island may be only marginally better than those from Brooklyn, but at least they understood that -- much as they hate "diverting" money to benefit the general public -- that a key link to the Manhattan job market (ie. LIRR to GCT) was important.
Larry,
Mr. Gentile was only elected 6 years ago. Unfortunately, the way to get things done is to make noise and get noticed. If a politician is presented with enough signatures, they act. Especially if these people threaten to vote for the opponent. In low voter turnout times, every vote counts.
JDL
That assumes the publiuc would be willing to put up with the four- to five-year minimum period it would take to tear down the existing Manhattan Bridge and put a new one up in the exact same spot, using the Canal St. and Flatbush Ave. approiaches. That would mean the loss of four tracks to Brooklyn instead of the current two, for about half a decade along with limiting commercial truck access to Brooklyn to the Williamsburgh Bridge for that same period of time. Not something any politician would propose unless they're thinking of early retirement.
Building a four track tunnel that connects to BOTH Broadway and Christie would be the answer. Why hasn't any one at the MTA thought of this?
I would design a four track, two level tunnel. On the upper level the B and D would run from 6th ave. On the lower level, N and Q would run from Broadway.
A tunnel probably can handle more tph than the bridge. So why hasn't this been done?
Probably two words. Politics and corruption.
Even a two-track tunnel would work, if coupled with the proposed Rutgers/DeKalb connection.
Tracks coming from the Broadway/Canal express stop could be run straight across Canal and bi-leveled, so a flying junction could be put in to connect those tracks to the Chrystie St. tracks. From there, the line could turn south at Canal and Allen St. (Pike St.) and head down to the river and across paralelling the Manny B, the same way the 60th St. tunnel paralells the Queensborough.
On the Brooklyn side, the tracks would hook into two of the four tracks coming out of DeKalb towards the Manny B, while the other two would be routed to the Rutgers St. tunnel.
The B could use the Rutgers connection, while the D/N/Q used the new tunnel. Three lines in the tunnel would still limit the number of TPH during rush hours, but the tunnel would allow faster speeds and therefore a slightly higher capacity than the current B/D/Q set-up on the bridge can handle.
(A tunnel probably can handle more tph than the bridge. So why hasn't this been done? Probably two words. Politics and corruption. )
How about race and class? The people traveling over the bridge are hardly the most influential people in the community. Their needs are far outweighed by affluent areas such as Long Island, which will (hopefully) get a better commute, and the demands of other service providers, such as the Nassau County Police and the New York City social service agencies.
In the battle for resources, the affluent and/or organized trump the working poor, and the present trumps the future, especially here in New York.
How about race and class? The people traveling over the bridge are hardly the most influential people in the community. Their needs are far outweighed by affluent areas such as Long Island, which will (hopefully) get a better commute, and the demands of other service providers, such as the Nassau County Police and the New York City social service agencies.
I don't quite see how Long Island commuters are getting a better break. The only major project that will make commuting easier is completion of the LIRR link to Grand Central. While that's obviously a costly deal, completion is many years off - in fact, even the start of work is unlikely to happen for several years. Many of the people who now ride the LIRR will be retired (or gone to the great train station in the sky) before the connection will open.
(Many of the people who now ride the LIRR will be retired (or gone to the great train station in the sky) before the connection will open.)
Ahh, but their children will get to use it, if they don't move out. I'm not sure I can say that about the Second Avenue Subway. Or the Manhattan Bridge.
That pretty much explains why I'm a socialist.
It's high time the workers and the "people" run government, not the affluent snobs and corrupt special interests.
I know being a "socialist" is highly unpopular with many people, but cmmon, we all know the transit system of our dreams can only happen under socialism.
They can never tear down the Manny B. It's a landmark. The bottom line, is that the construction has been going on for 18 years. It is inexcusable that the bridge is not being fully utilized by now.
They've poured so much money into the bridge, it's gone past the point of no return. It's the Money Pit of New York.
Just get the damned thing fixed and start running the trains on the south side of it-----and be done with it.
My words exactly
Unfortunately, logic is a foreign concept to the "Klingons" running New York City and State. So are governments that are not plagued with corruption.
No, but labor costs have. Back in the 1910's/1920's, you could hire cheap immigrant labor to do the dirty work with no need to adhear to OSHA safety guidlines, nor pesky unions demanding higher wages and safer work enviornments.
The suffering continues to those who do not own vehicles & do not live walking distance to thier employment or doctor-dentist or just going to get groceries !!The outcry from the gestapos ( cops ) who were cracking down on the gypsy cabs & even the kind persons giving the transit dependent free rides was eased back. One of our idiot & crazy L.A county supervisors, aka
Y.B.Burke had the nerve to blame the bus riders union for keeping the strike going!! How in the hell can she say that? They are trying to take money AWAY from the MTA workers & operators !! What is she talking about ???
County Supervisor and MTA Board Member Yvonne Brathwaite Burke is a disgrace, turning her back to her constituents. It will be a cold day in hell before I vote for her again.
Let's not forget our genial, hard working mayor, Richard Riordan, also an MTA board member, vacationing in France during this crisis. He reminds me of Russian President Putin, sunning himself on a beach while over 100 sailors drowned in that submarine tragedy.
It's no wonder politicians are held in such low regard.
"It's no wonder politicians are held in such low regard."
On the contrary, politicians are held in high regard. Why else an they raise record contributions for their campaigns. It's actually the electorate that the politicians hold in such low regard. Why? Because, by and large, the electorate are idiots. For the most part, they vote party and not issues. That's why politicians can take the electorate for granted.
At the expense of veering off-topic, I think contempt flows in all directions. The contributors don't necessarily respect politicians; they regard it as a cost of doing business. Politicians take the electorate for granted at their peril. Do either Bore or Gush take this election for granted? Same for Hillary and Rick in New York.
None of the politicians mentioned take the election for granted but they all treat the electorate like we are morons. Hillary is running on her record of accomplishments according to her ads. What accomplishments? As first lady, she promised to make her mark in the area of healthcare. Now 7 years later, seniors on Long Island can't get health insurance. At the same time, the north-east will be raped by home heating costs while Gore & Bush politicize the issue. Good old Chuckie Schumer has done nothing but cal for his friend, the president, to release oil reserves. Where's the leadership. As for Rick Lazio, I have nothing to say about him - other than I'm disappointed - he's had nothing to say on the issue.
Healthcare and the cost of heating our homes are the issues most concerning north-easterners. Where's the leadership on either side?
>>Healthcare and the cost of heating our homes are the issues most
concerning north-easterners. Where's the leadership...?<<
in the pockets of the respective industries. and you are surprised because? as to Hillary, dumb as she is the demos have a better record on the long haul of money for cities (and transit projects) All of the pols have dropped the ball on energy--SUV's should not be legal to produce, fare boxes should disdsappear, A 'crash' program to put solar DHW on every residence in the US would vasttly decrease imports of oil. And a public debate over pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia would drop the price in a hurry.
SUV's should not be legal to produce
And everybody should drive a Lada instead, right?
fare boxes should disdsappear
How do you expect to pay for transit then? Or would you rather it deteriorate to collapse forcing everybody's Lada on the road.
A 'crash' program to put solar DHW on every residence in the US would vasttly decrease imports of oil.
I assume you expect to pay for this by eliminating transit fares.
And a public debate over pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia would drop the price in a hurry.
Tapping our oil reserves is a short term solution.
A good long term solution is to point our guns on OPEC and fire. Why should those idiotic dictators play with the American economy?
[A good long term solution is to point our guns on OPEC and fire. Why should those idiotic dictators play with the American economy?]
It's their oil.
"It's their oil. "
Yes but it was our military that went over their and protected their oil from the Iraqis. I don't think that we need to be pointing guns but their should be some quid-pro-quo for what we did. As for pointing guns, it's not so far fetched. Let no one ever forget what the attack on Pearl Harbor was really about.
Don't forget, they pretty much paid for the coalition force to take back Kuwait.
Mr George Foelschow & the Train Dude !!! MAN I CANT BELIEVE IT !!!
we agree 100% on this, All of the MTA board Idiots ( Yvonne B Burke )
& our dishonor the mayor Richard Riordan ( did not vote for them )
they want to Take Away from all of the operatoirs & the real workers who do the hardest work on the bus & rail systems. They do not sit on their lazy luxury asses inside the plush overbuilt useless waisted MTA building ( which never should have been built )
""TAJ MAHAL"" building near the Union Station / gateway center downtown. These lemo driven nuts dont have a clue as to how the rest of us working stiffs have to live & also the working poor who have as their only transportation public transit !! What in the hell does the mayor mrs.V.B. burke & the MTA know about this subtalkers??
then to make things WORSE the gestapos arresting & crackdown on jypsy cabs ( even free rides )? how are we supposed to pay for food clothing & shelter & not become HOMELESS or require U.I UNEMPLOYMENT or food stamps & WELFARE food banks ( especially after loss of wages & jobs )
The transit dependents here are BEGGING for the strike to end & PAY the operators & WORKERS & i suppoort them too !!! 100% !!!
If we agree, then I must be wrong or you mis-understood what I said. Just so I uderstand things correctly, who is on strike? Is it the MTA Board who is on strike? Or is it the train operators and bus drivers, and other transit employees that are on strike? Is it possible that it is the transit workers who don't give a damn about those who are transit-dependent? Or is the strike 100% the fault of management?
Since the MTA came into being a few years ago, it has:
1) Squandered 480 million dollars (LA Times, 09/22/00) on its obscene marble headquarters palace. This was accomplished when downtown Los Angeles office buildings had a 25% vacancy rate. They could have rented office space for the proverbial song.
2) Wasted untold millions in the construction of the Red Line subway. Cost overruns, fraud, substandard construction (the cave in in Hollywood plus several preventable construction worker deaths). I suspect it will be a long time before the whole story here is known. End result: no more subways for this city for the foreseeable future.
3) Settled a lawsuit from the Bus Riders' Union and the NAACP through a consent decree, agreeing to new buses and improved service. It has tried to weasel out of that agreement by chipping away at bus service.
MTA prides itself on its "load factor". That's another way of saying Los Angeles' buses are the most crowded of any large U.S. city. I know, since I am a daily user of MTA subways and buses (in normal times).
Yes, technically it is the drivers and operators who are on strike. Because management is facing a financial shortfall through its incompetence and outright corruption, it wants to take it out of the hide of its employees.
George;
How have you compensated for the strike? I hope you have found some reasonable alternative transportation for the duration.
Tom
I have found reasonable alternative transportation by looking down and seeing my two functional feet. I figure that the strike won't end until I have lost ten pounds, at least. No more eight minute rides on the Red Line to work; I'm trying to make the best of it. I have been using the free Red Line replacement bus that operates to Wilshire and Alvarado intended for Metrolink commuters, so that is some help. Thanks for your concern; I'm glad you're giving lifts to the stranded.
question; what if you lived too far away from your job ??
THEN WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN ?? ( excuse me ) ...
lets hope the police dont BUST old tom too !!
just to set the record straight on all of these threads....
It is now DAY 8 EIGHT !!! thanks ...............
Maybe this will answer that question about who's at fault for the sorry state of affairs in Los Angeles. I'm a staunch Republican and I'm all for the workers getting all they deserve because they deserve a hell of a lot more than the cheapskate and inept MTA is offering. That ought to give you guys some idea of who is screwing up the works. Management sucks and is only generous when they feather their own nests.
>>> Is it the MTA Board who is on strike? <<<
Steve;
In one sense it is the MTA on strike. This is not a situation where the union is holding out for a big pay increase, but a situation where the MTA wants to change current work rules which would result in a loss of income to the union members.
The MTA would not move from its position in spite of lengthy bargaining before a strike was called. Since the MTA runs at an operating loss, and will continue receiving tax subsidies during the strike, it is more profitable during the strike than it was before the strike. The only incentive for the MTA to settle the strike will come from political pressure by riders and those dependant on the riders to get the system running again.
At the present time the riding public is favoring the strikers, and the non riding public, generally does not care. The ones really hurting are the businesses which depend on riders for their sales. They will be the ones who will eventually apply the political pressure that resolves the strike.
So far this has been a "friendly" strike. The picket lines are up at the transit yards and the "Transit Temple" (headquarters), but no effort is being made to stop SCAB operations. The MTA had made no effort to run the trains or hire replacement bus drivers. SCAB runs appear to be by supervisory personnel and are minimal. My guess (without inside information) is that the union does not want to take any more forceful action to stop the SCAB runs for fear of alienating the riders who are now supporting them. Or maybe they are all too young to remember any vicious strikes.
Tom
(This is not a situation where the union is holding out for a big pay increase, but a situation where the MTA wants to change current work rules which would result in a loss of income to the union members.)
One thing this strike has exposed is the cost of peaking. Currently, the union members are paid not to work during the middle of the day, and the riders/taxpayers pay for this -- in overtime. The MTA wants to shift that cost to the workers, and make them sit around for free, or go home after the morning rush hour and come back for the evening rush hours, with four commutes per day.
To me, the right move is to charge more for peak hour service (we've been through this), and/or have some of the train and bus operators do maintenance and other work between shifts so they aren't paid for nothing (we've been through this also). The cost is there; it's just a matter of who gets stuck with it.
excuse me but it is now day 8 eight ....i agree with most of the rest of the post
So far this has been a "friendly" strike. The picket lines are up at the transit yards and the "Transit Temple" (headquarters), but no effort is being made to stop SCAB operations. The MTA had made
no effort to run the trains or hire replacement bus drivers. SCAB runs appear to be by supervisory personnel and are minimal. My guess (without inside information) is that the union does not want to take any more forceful action to stop the SCAB runs for fear of alienating the riders who are now supporting them.
Managers and supervisors who fill in for striking workers aren't scabs. That particular term is reserved for people hired specifically as strikebreakers. Seldom if ever is violence directed toward managers and supervisors. Things are different, needless to say, with true scabs.
answer the 100% FAULT lies with Y.B.Burke the mayor & the MTA elite!
100% The MANAGEMENT !!the MTA workers are trying to hang on to what they have now I dont blame them one bit !!!
From what I've read, the LA MTA management has mis-managed funds, built an unnecesary and overly expensive headquarters and now wants to increase productivity among the operators of its trains and busses by introducing swing shifts. Is this correct?
If we, for the moment, disregard the first two items, what is the problem with item #3. Supposing in NYC, the city council passed a rule that garbage could not be picked up between 11 AM and 3 PM in Manhattan. Suddenly, all garbage men in manhattan were getting 4 hours of overtime whie spending 4 hours in movie theaters, porno parlors or home sleeping. Would this be reasonable? In LA, I am making the assumption that off-peak ridership is too low to support the number of operators needed for peak service. Hence, they are paying some operators to sit around (on overtime) during a 4 hour swing.
If the MTA of LA were not so widely disliked, the public would be up in arms over this waste of money. If this were NYC, it would never fly. For the record, unpaid swing shifts are universal where there is not sufficient off-peak ridership to keep the operators busy during off-peak times.
>>> For the record, unpaid swing shifts are universal where there is not sufficient off-peak ridership to keep the operators busy during off-peak times. <<<
Steve;
The original objection of the union was to ten hour days (four days a week) with a three hour swing which would mean the drivers were away from home thirteen hours plus commuting time. As it is now, there is an unpaid two hour swing, but the drivers are at work for twelve hours and getting eight hours straight time and two hours overime. I believe that is comparable to other systems with long swings.
Not surprisingly senior drivers pick the overtime runs, and also not surprisingly many of them have become used to the higher paychecks and are living on the overtime. It would not surprise me if many younger drivers would prefer a four day work week with three day weekends.
The idea of having drivers do other maintenance jobs during their swing period has always been a problem with unions which traditionally hold to the idea of distinct job descriptions, and no crossover between jobs. Sooner or later unions will have to give ground in this area.
No doubt when the strike is settled there will be some change in work rules which will help management reduce costs, but not as drastic as the MTA wanted and would not budge from until there was a strike.
Tom
As a taxpayer,everyone should agree that it makes sense to have the drivers do other work durig paid swings. Or do you perfer to have people collecting $30-40 / Hr. for doing nothing?
>>> As a taxpayer,everyone should agree that it makes sense to have the drivers do other work durig paid swings <<<
Steve;
When you preface a remark with "as a taxpayer" you can probably get agreement that municipal employees should be working for minimum wages at least 60 hours a week. Most of us look at the situation not just from the position of what would be the cheapest way to go. When you mention paid swings you limit the discussion to an either-or choice. Perhaps the solution lies in starting new employees as part time employees to cover the rush hours and thereby reduce the numbers of swings. Perhaps it requires a change of shift starting and ending times. The staffing for peak periods such as rush hours is always a problem for any business.
Given the adversarial nature of union-management relations, it is not surprising that at a time of general prosperity the union is unwilling to settle for less than it had at the beginning of negotiations. After all the union leadership has political concerns when it runs for re-election in union elections.
The general perception that the (LA) MTA is a wasteful organization (building the Transit Temple while deferring maintenance on its bus fleet) is the basis of the support for the union position, not only among union members, but among the riding public.
Tom
In NYC, the unions have strenuously fought part timers more than any other issue. And as a municipal employee and former TWU member, I hardly support minimum wage or 60 hour weeks. Starting earlieror finishing later would be desirable but I sense that there are just not enough off-peak riders to justify the extra service.
For what it's worth, I think the LA MTA is fighting a losing battle. NYCT, Metro-North and LIRR all have many tricks that run between 8 1/2 and 10 hours.
>>> NYCT, Metro-North and LIRR all have many tricks that run between 8 ˝ and 10 hours. <<<
Steve;
That's not so bad, the current LACMTA contract calls for some 12 hour tricks, with eight hours of driving, and the MTA wanted to increase it to 13 hours with 10 hours of driving.
As a matter of union security, unions everywhere fight part timers because part timers who are not getting enough hours to live on, have to look elsewhere for some of their income and tend to look at union dues as an expense without a commensurate benefit. Non-union employers (think of the big banks) like hiring part timers to avoid providing non-monetary benefits and to prevent unionization.
Tom
Again, as Peter pointed out, if this were a private enterprise, no one would expect management to pay people to sit around idle while getting paid. My main objection is not with the details but with the notion that because it's a public agency, it is somehow okay for the workers to be paid for not working.
It would be interesting to know how mainline rr's handled this in pre public subsidy days. LIRR when still owned by PRR, IC ,CB&Q, RDG, et al. I hazard a guess that the downtime WAS paid for because the rr unions were not weak then. I believe this issue is Negotiable--that is not carved in stone either way but open to changealong with many other issues.
It would be interesting to know how mainline rr's handled this in pre public subsidy days. LIRR when still owned by PRR, IC ,CB&Q, RDG, et al. I hazard a guess that the downtime WAS paid for because the rr unions were not weak then. I believe this issue is Negotiable--that is not carved in stone either way but open to changealong with many other issues.
Ridership probably wasn't as heavily "peaked" back then. There might have been enough mid-day demand to keep most workers gainfully occupied.
>>> no one would expect management to pay people to sit around idle while getting paid. <<<
This is not the issue in this strike. In previous negotiations the union and management agreed that unpaid swings would not last longer than a certain amount of time. I do not know what was agreed, but from news reports that I have read it appears to be two hours. Obviously the length of an unpaid swing is one of the work rules subject to negotiation. To use an extreme to illustrate the mean, a job with four hours on starting at 5:00 A.M. to 9:00 A.M., and then a six hour unpaid layover until 3:00 P.M. and working again until 7:00 P.M., is far more intrusive into the worker's life than say 8:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M. with an hour for lunch. Actually with a six hour swing, an employee may put that time to good use, but when the swing is three or four hours, there is not really enough time for the employee to do anything but sit around and read or play cards.
When the union bargains for pay after a certain length of a swing, it is to get management to reschedule to reduce excessive swing time, or compensate the worker as a penalty for requiring the the excessive waiting time, not to obtain pay for doing nothing. Private employers would find a way to prevent the long swing time once they agreed to that sort of term.
If management wants the long swings for the purpose of covering peak periods, finding something for the drivers to do while waiting will not reduce overtime, but may take union jobs from others. It is hardly surprising that a union would oppose that.
Tom
I'm just glad swings do not exist in RTO(for now).
excuse me but it is now day 9 nine ....i agree with most of the rest of the post
>>> excuse me but it is now day 9 nine <<<
I get to nitpick the great Pigs!! It is day eight of the strike. The strike began at 12:01 A.M. P.S.T. on September 16th. It is now 9:41 P.M. P.S.T. on September 23rd, so the strike is in its 8th day for a little more than two more hours.
Tom
OK, old tom dont forget about ONE HOUR from now it wiil be DAY 9 !!
@ hold on to your SEAT folks !!!! salaamallah
I have to nitpick again. The strike started at 12:01 AM PDT
At the time you posted the message it was 9:41 PM PDT and it is now 11:40 AM PDT.
>>> The strike started at 12:01 AM PDT <<<
Pigs;
Ahh, so true. You are clearly in no danger of losing the title of #1 nitpicker! Where I was only able to detect an error which made your post totally incorrect (some would say that is not really nitpicking). you were able to find an error which had absolutely no relevance to the accuracy of the main thrust of my post.
I stand in awe of true greatness!!! :-)
Tom
YEP: in about ONE HOUR from now PST ( day 9 ) ..
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I'm used to equating "swing shift" to the 2nd, or evening shift. That aside, I assume the definition used here is a few hours on, a few hours off, then a few hours on again to make a full work day.)
In my business of radio weather, when we work a "split shift" as we call it, comprising of morning and afternoon "drive time" (i.e. rush hour, we are paid only for the hours worked. The "mid-day break" is our time. I usually use it to ride the system when in NYC; if I take a nap, I can't fall asleep at night for the next 4am wake-up!
And that's...
I betcha it wasn't like that years ago at CBS. My chum who works for KNX says current terms are far lousier than when he was at WBBM thirty years ago. It is all(see my other post) a matter of negotiation. I make no moral comment as to it ends up: I could easily take either side.
I actually liked swings when I ran streetcars for BTC in the early 60's. Once I escaped the extra list, I tended to pick 9 1/2 hour swings. Many worked both the 8 and 15 lines. One example: Run 827 (out of York Road (carhouse) Division. Mon-Fri, Sat/Sun off. Report @ 4:45 AM, get setup (change, transfers, car assignment ,etc). Pull out Block 812 northbound (to Towson @ 5:10, go to Towson, to Catonsvile, to Towson to Pearl Street to Towson to York Road Carhouse, Pull in 9:22 AM. Off until 2:45 PM. Report to York Road, Pull out Block 1578. Work Southbound signed 15-Walbrook Jct. @ 3:10 (8 line trackage to City Hall, issue transfers punched 15A. Once westbound on Fayette Street, change transfers to 15 line. Go to Walbrook, to Overlea to Walbrook to City Hall. Set sign to 8-York Road Car House, work in service to carhouse, pull in @6:25 PM. Put car away on proper track, take farebox/register readings, go in office and settle up. Go home.
Worked swings a lot, as it gave me the middle of the day to take care of personal stuff, and got to work a lot of varied runs that usually worked both lines.
Some guys never picked swing runs, either you liked them or you didn't.
Dan;
Were you single or married when your work day started at 4:45 A.M. and ended at 6:25 P.M.? The free time in the middle of the day is nice, but it sure cuts into family time. I worked for a while on a 3:00 P.M. to 12:00 midnight shift. I really enjoyed working those hours because I am a night person, but my wife worked 7:00 A.M. to 4:00 P.M., so we rarely spoke with each other during the week except on the telephone.
Tom
As a taxpayer,everyone should agree that it makes sense to have the drivers do other work durig paid swings. Or do you perfer to have people collecting $30-40 / Hr. for doing nothing? Don't blame the MTA if they want to get more bang for their buck. At the NYCT, we can work hourly employees below their title 40% of the time if necessary to keep them gainfully employed.
>>> At the NYCT, we can work hourly employees below their title 40% of the time if necessary to keep them gainfully employed. <<<
Steve;
What does "below their title" mean? Does it mean a T/O will be put to work in the shops repairing and maintaining rolling stock? Will a T/O be assigned train cleaning duties?
Tom
Not necessarilly but a mechanic can be used to remove graffiti if there is no work in his title. Suppose that a Train operator was a former cleaner, he could be used to sweep his train. Again, I don't necessarilly endorse this but it does make paid swing shifts easier for those opposed to them to swallow.
How about a T/O on his swing operating the tower or making announcements? How about working a car wash? Seems that there are many non-physically taxing jobs that can be done.
Supposing in NYC, the city council passed a rule that garbage could not be picked up between 11 AM and 3 PM in Manhattan. Suddenly, all garbage men in manhattan were getting 4 hours of overtime whie
spending 4 hours in movie theaters, porno parlors or home sleeping. Would this be reasonable? In LA, I am making the assumption that off-peak ridership is too low to support the number of operators needed for peak service. Hence, they are paying some operators to sit around (on overtime) during a 4 hour swing.
If the MTA of LA were not so widely disliked, the public would be up in arms over this waste of money. If this were NYC, it would never fly. For the record, unpaid swing shifts are universal where there is not sufficient off-peak ridership to keep the operators busy during off-peak times.
And it should go without saying that no private-sector employer would pay people for an idle swing period. It's really nervy on the part of the Los Angeles drivers, if you ask me, even to expect that they should be paid for do-nothing midday periods. Sure, it would be nice if transit ridership weren't so "peaked" that this problem existed. But ridership is peaked, and will remain that way for the foreseeable future, and it's high time that the unions should face reality. I'm all for giving workers decent wages for a job well done, but there have to be limits.
Well said, Peter
>>> the gestapos arresting & crackdown on jypsy cabs ( even free rides ) <<<
Salaam;
Where are you getting the information that the police are arresting those giving free rides? I have seen no news stories regarding arrests for giving free rides. The crackdown on jitney service where drivers are collecting $1.00-$3.00 from riders should be expected. There are very good reasons why such operations must meet safety and insurance standards.
I have made it a point during the strike to travel on surface streets rather than freeways when possible and to offer (free) rides to anyone at a bus stop for the distance I am travelling. I have received no interference from police in any way.
Tom
Ah, Tom, you just don't get it yet. If you are going to read any of Salaam's postings, the trick is to suspend reality. There is no relationsip between his rantings and the truth. Any correspondence with fact is purely coincidental. Once you understand that, you can read his posts like you would read Dell Comics.
I never read any COMICS (perhaps like you seem to be curently doing)
even in my childhood days back in the classic 1950s !!
Maybe you are still HOOKED on them today !! ( too bad )
You must seek help for your problem! No wonder you have problems with the true facts & lack of reality, do you also post from the inside of the creedmor mental hospital??
Before I respond to the ""train dudes lunacy"" about his obsessions with reading comic books etc.,it was SHOWN on TV channel 9 11 13 inj particular Old Tom where ""Tow trucks & transit & lapd & sherifs etc""
were doing STINGS arresting & towing throughout the city etc..
(perhaps not on the EXACT block & street where you drive) However...
Just because you were not where channels# 9 11 13 was etc. dosent mean that it did not happen because it was not under your nose! Ok so the tow trucks & STING operations did not happen in you neck of the woods.
( BY THE WAY I HAVE THIS NEWS CLIPPINGs ON VIDEO ( vhs ) AS PROFF )
When they did these evil crackdowns on the most defenseless & helpless of all "the transit dependent & stranded & left out & dumped, discarded forgoten & not cared about by anybody & made UNEMPLOYED.
The most VICIOUS MEAN EVIL WRONG CRACKDOWNS also included anyone giving rides to anyone on any transit stop!!! What proff did they have that anyone was PAID or not?? Also do you have proff that only the jitney PAID drivers were the only ones being ARRESTED & WRONGFULLY BEING TOWED AWAY ?? or just innocent persons giving free rides to work etc?
Maybe you gave a free rides where the INSANE CRACKDOWNS were not being done did you even consider that sir????? ( I hope so ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you got lucky no police & or GESTAPO sheriff was looking & you got away without being arrested & or towed away good luck !!!!
Again I fail 100% to see what was right about this at this extreme time of EMERGENCY for so many working HARD WORKING transit dependent poor!!
Im sorry but I will continue to stand up for all of the folks on the BOTTOM looking up at the MTA tower downtown & the IDIOTS there who live in luxury with thier PRIVATE LEMO service & perks !!! .
{ sorry about the caps but this really makes me mad }
>>> Just because you were not where channels# 9 11 13 was etc. dosent mean that it did not happen because it was not under your nose!<<<
>>> The most VICIOUS MEAN EVIL WRONG CRACKDOWNS also included anyone giving rides to anyone on any transit stop!!! What proff did they have that anyone was PAID or not?? Also do you have proff that only the jitney PAID drivers were the only ones being ARRESTED & WRONGFULLY BEING TOWED AWAY ?? or just innocent persons giving free rides to work etc? <<<
Salaam;
You are correct that I did not see the coverage on Chanels 9, 11, and 13, but how could TV crews differentiate between arrests of those charging for rides and those giving free rides? I have no doubt that arrests have been made, but I was questioning whether arrests have been made for giving free rides. I would expect reaction to such arrests in the editorial pages of the newspapers. I see nothing wrong with the police using stings. Just as in suppression of prostitution, the use of stings could be expected, and use of the stings would be how they would learn who was charging for the rides.
Of course I do not have proof that no one who was just giving free rides was not arrested, but I would surely like to share in the amounts they will be able to collect for false arrest. There is no law against offering free rides as long as it is done without obstructing traffic.
Tom
LA sucks.
More annoying questions for those in PHL.
Under the railway bridge crossing Frankford ave at Solly there is still a sign that says "car stop" in yellow paint. Did trackless trolleys used to have "car stops" or this this still here from the 1950s?
On Erie Ave near the el station the trolley wires have been taken down. The cross (support) wires are still there. Isn't 56 suspended and not abandoned?
There are turn tracks into a grass ravine about a block north of Darby loop. What was this used for?
Some general comments:
The PCC / Witt charter on Sunday was excellent. Kudos to the organizers.
I was very impressed that SEPTA put crossover tracks on Baltimore Ave so the trolleys could continue to roll during track replacement.
I was shocked at the fact that SEPTAs trolleys were so clean. Obviously a good deal of effort is put in there.
SEPTA's operator's were very good for the most part. One trackless trolley driver went out of his way to explain the buses to me.
I was blown away by the speed of the heavy rail lines. Aside from the over announcing on the M4s (done to meet ADA I guess) - they are great cars to ride on.
Why does SEPTA make it so hard to find day paases?
SEPTA store closed weekends? Unimpressive.
Some great off street loops in the city.
The SEPTA store is open Saturdays, which didn't help you last Sunday.
Bob
Sadly the SEPTA store was not open Saturday either. There was a note on it saying that it is not open for the first five Saturdays after Labour Day.
More observations I forgot to mention. I had steaks at both Pat's and Geno's and couldn't decide which one was better. At Pat's the woman serving me commented on my accent. She asked if I was Australian!!!! How can Canadian and Australian be confused?
Trackless trolleys on 29 and 79 were dieseled on the weeknends. A driver on Monday told me that they put diesels on for safety. Apparently the neighbourhood youth will pull the polls down when the bus is stopped and then throw crap at the operator while he's putting them back up. But is there more danger on weekends then weekdays? You would think the biggest problem would be weekdays after schoo.
Sorry, I don't check on a regular basis due to time constraints. Here are some answers:
The trackless lines had 'car stop' painted on the poles just like the car lines. Not too many survive due to wear, pole painting/ replacement, etc. There was a street light on Delaware Ave that had this stencil when Buckingham Valley ran its cars there. This pole was removed and reused on Kelly Drive - hardly a place for a car stop, in the middle of Fairmount Park, but designated one anyhow.
56 is suspended as a car line, meaning that operationally it is still treated as a car line but is run with buses. It may come back some day, but don't hold your breath.
The track you are mentioning at Darby is, I believe, the old route 62 track. It went from Main St/Lansdowne Ave through the loop (opposite the route 11 loop tracks) and north to connect to 9th St and return to Yeadon. Route 13 cars can no longer operate through Darby as this track is no longer usable (13's must continue on Main St to Elmwood Depot or come from the depot to 9th St).
SEPTA makes it difficult to do most anything like buy tokens, get information, etc. The Daypass gets SEPTA's standard treatment here. Many operators don't even recognize it when they see it (I've had this trouble more than once).
Buses run on 29 and 79 on weekends since operators are given a choice and many will opt for buses. The safety issue is not as bad as SEPTA would lead one to believe.
When is the next GO for the #2 that will make the ride between 241 and E 180 express (in either direction, preferably a Saturday)?
I was hoping to cover that stretch, but I ran out of time and had to turn back at E 180.
Thanks!
Here is a quote from CNN:
"For cities contemplating their own transit needs, some transportation experts in Los Angeles say the strike here should make city planners nationwide aware of what can be added costs of providing safe, reliable, bus and rail service."
It goes on to say that if you rely on a transit system, you are at the mercy of a union, just as if you relied on a transit system 100 years ago, you were at the mercy of the transit company. In either case, you get a monopoly that looks after itself first. In the 1920s, getting a car was a POPULIST move, because allowed the common man to be free of the corporation. Now the unions are in their place.
>>> if you rely on a transit system, you are at the mercy of a union <<<
That is certainly a biased attitude. The Los Angeles "Bus Riders Union" a consumer action group which so far has sided with the striking transit workers in L.A. has long proclaimed that they are at the mercy of the LACMTA, which (they claim) has been building expensive rail systems and allowing bus service to deteriorate to pay for them.
Tom
"...you are at the mercy of a union..." Give me a break. Union power and influence in this country has been in decline for the past forty years for a number of reasons. I can think of industry being shipped to low-wage foreign countries, NAFTA, the "global economy", etc. The MTA board has the upper hand here, and they care not a whit for their employees or the people who rely on transit.
(Give me a break. Union power and influence in this country has been in decline for the past forty years for a number of reasons. I can think of industry being shipped to low-wage foreign countries, NAFTA, the "global economy", etc. )
The common idea is unions (labor) vs. management (shareholders). But the truth is corporations made plenty of money when unions were more powerful. Union labor's advantage was passed onto consumers in the form of higher prices and inferior products. Since union households were on both sides of this cost-benefit, the big losers were non-union households. If everyone was in a union, there would have been no benefit at all.
All the reasons you cite for union decline have to do with giving buyers a choice. Unions remain strong anywhere there is a monopoly or oligopoly, and consumers have no choice, especially utilities and government. This is especially clear in the case of public agencies, where there are no "profits" and "shareholders" to get a better deal from, only taxpayers and transit riders.
And the unions think Algore is going to bring back the glory days of organized labor! Ha ha ha ha! The sad thing about unions is that they are jealous of the information economy because they aren't capable of understanding it. The organized labor fantasy is that they will organize 'new' economy workers as if they were steel workers. A weak effort was made a few years back to organize the technicians in my company. These are bright guys skilled in digital communications technologies. The company policy is that unionized employees do not get stock options, needless to say interest in the union faded away. (Of course my employer blew it up out of proportion which only gave free publicity to something that was going nowhere anyway.)
I was a part-time assistant instructor at Rutgers-Camden when the RU faculty voted to join the American Association of University Professors. This resulted in an immediate 15 to 20% raise for all faculty, bringing them up to the average for New Jersey. The fact that only 12% of the faculty actually joined the union was irrelevant.
Earlier, I worked at Strawbridge and Clothier (upscale Philly department store) which remained non-union by giving their employees the same wages and benefits that across-the-street Lit Brothers union employees got; the S&C employees didn't pay union dues.
Anecdotal stories of good or bad unions or managements abound, but won't change anybody's pro or anti union sentiments.
Earlier, I worked at Strawbridge and Clothier (upscale Philly department store) which remained non-union by giving their employees the same wages and benefits that across-the-street Lit Brothers
union employees got; the S&C employees didn't pay union dues.
In some cases, non-union employers actually will pay their workers more than union employers in the same area. You'll see this particularly in the health care industry. These non-union employers are willing to pay more, just so they don't have to go through the hassle of dealing with unions.
Wal*Mart is an unusual case. They've managed to keep the unions away despite paying relatively low wages. How they've managed so well, I don't know.
Wal-Mart keeps a lot of their workers on 38-hour (i.e. non full-time) work weeks if they can do it, while workers also have a stock option plan, which may help lower union support.
But when a union does come in an win a vote, as was the case with meat-cutters at an East Texas Supercenter, the company solves that problem by eliminating their own meat cutters -- not only in that store but in stores across the region -- and contracting out their meat cutting and packaging business to another firm. Employees in the other departments get the message.
Strawbridges not only paid their employees the same as Lits; they treated them as people, and Lits had an adversarial relationship with their employees. The Strawbridge family were good people (except for one of the younger generation who was a jerk) and treated the employees well because they wanted to. The fact that it was good business practice was secondary.
Strawbridges [non-union] not only paid their employees the same as Lits; they treated them as people, and Lits [union] had an adversarial relationship with their employees.
Sadly, that's not at all uncommon when it comes to union and non-union employers.
Well if I were scaming people I'd be nice to them to so when they found out they wouldn't torch the store.
>>> These non-union employers are willing to pay more, just so they don't have to go through the hassle of dealing with unions. <<<
Employers are willing to do more than just pay more to prevent unions. In the early ‘70s I worked as a Field Service Representative for a big corporation based in the east. My job, along with 80 others in the branch I worked at was to go to customer locations to repair equipment owned by my employer.
Working conditions, salaries and benefits were good. Most of the field employees were virulently anti-union in off duty conversations. A union's chance of winning a representation election was virtually nil.
On a Friday afternoon, we were all given a memo from management that effective the following Monday, our hours would be changed from 8:30-5:00 with a ˝ hour lunch break to 8:00-5:00 with a 1 hour lunch break.
The change made good management sense. Since we were a reactive group, on days when calls were slow we would spend an hour to two hours at lunch with other Reps, (and no lunch hour at all if things were busy). Those who were better at making lasting repairs had more free time. Since we were already spending an hour at lunch, the earlier starting time provided the company an extra ˝ hour a day per man, or 40 man hours a day, or five extra men for the branch. The implementation of the change was against all labor management principles.
When the change was made, there was grumbling from several of the Reps about having to change personal schedules such as dropping the spouse off at work or the kids at school. But there was still no sentiment for union representation. I decided to become a one-man union. I went to the local Service Workers union (SEIU 610) and spoke with a representative of the union about organizing. I told him that I doubted that the effort would be successful, but obtained a handful of organizing literature.
I then went to the place where all of the Reps gathered to pick up necessary parts, and surreptitiously posted a couple of union notices on the bulletin board, and scattered a few on the floor. I then took one of the notices appropriately scuffed with heal marks to my supervisor and told him that although I certainly did not support unionization, there was talk of it among the reps because of the change in starting times, and here was a union pamphlet I had found on the floor.
Within two days there was a memo rescinding the change of starting time, and within two weeks the Chairman of the Board of the corporation flew out to meet with a small group of field reps chosen by management to get a feel of what the field reps were thinking. Since I was so obviously pro management, having given the warning of union activity, I was one of the field reps chosen to participate in the session with the Chairman. It was a great opportunity for me to advise him of what I was "hearing from other Reps."
They never did find out who the union agitator was. The change in work hours did go through about two weeks later, but only after each supervisor had spoken with each of his service reps to learn what adverse effect the change would cause, and making special exceptions for one or two of the reps for a limited period of time so they could rearrange their morning routines.
Tom
to me it started with REGAN & the PATCO strike !!!!!
There's a brief paragraph about nycsubway.org in today's AJC. The reporter contacted me on Thursday wondering how I wrote such an up-to-date and through description on MARTA. Ironically, most of my info was obtained by searching though the AJC. The Article mainly points out about the Atlanta section of this site, but still it's pretty cool. Scroll down after clicking the link to see the paragraph.
The fame of Dave and his followers continues to spread. I'ts good there is SOMEWHERE to look for information on transit systems. I remember back in the pre-internet world I tried to find the equivalent of the Rand McNally Road Atlas for rail transit systems. Didn't exist. But with Dave and his links, we're getting there.
To be filed under "Things I never thought I'd see (and didn't even know existed)!":
On the Van Wyck this morning, a white GMC Sonoma, with a 'Honolulu GMC Truck' license plate frame. Hey, no biggie, right?
This prompted me to get a closer look at the plate:
American Samoa.
Plate is Green, with white highlight, and a palm tree on the left side. It also says something at the top, but this was covered by the frame.
Odd.
-Hank
To be filed under "Things I never thought I'd see (and didn't even know existed)!": On the Van Wyck this morning, a white GMC Sonoma, with a 'Honolulu GMC Truck' license plate frame. Hey, no biggie, right? This prompted me to get a closer look at the plate:
American Samoa.
And maybe the driver had only wanted to go to the local 7-11 for a pack of cigarettes, but took a really wrong turn :-)
Even having a Honolulu GMC Truck plate frame is pretty rare. How many HI cars make it to the mainland, especially a non-military town?
>>> How many HI cars make it to the mainland, especially a non-military town? <<<
Although I would not call the sightings frequent, they are seen here in Los Angeles almost as often as cars with New York license plates. I guess that is because Interstate 10 runs through both Los Angeles and Honolulu. :-)
Tom
"I guess that is because Interstate 10 runs through both Los Angeles and Honolulu. :-)
Does that include the L-O-N-G-E-S-T hidden underwater highway tunnel in the entire world? Amazingly, it seems to have been built with absolutely no leaks to the nosey press or the pols in both CA and HI, or the Feds, which has to rank up there with the crossing of the Red Sea.
ROTFLMAS!!!!!!
>>> Does that include the L-O-N-G-E-S-T hidden underwater highway tunnel in the entire world? <<<
Dan;
You will note that I said I-10 runs through both Los Angeles and Honolulu, not that it ran between them. Another post has indicated that in Honolulu I-10 has been renamed "H-1", although it retains the red and blue shields that designate interstate highways. I am not aware of any other place than Hawaii that the interstate highway system does not have an "I" designation.
Tom
It does have an I designation, it's called I-H1. The shield says interstate where in normally does, and has H1 in the blue area. The same thing works in I-H2 and I-H3. I-H201 is not signed as there is no 4 figure I shield available.
When I was in Florida this summer, I noticed the same thing. I think that was the first time I've ever seen a Hawaii license plate.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
The "interstate" in Honolulu is NOT I-10. It is "H-1". Why they even have an "interstate" in Hawaii raises a lot of questions, as they'd need one hell of a long bridge to make it a true interstate.
The real reason is that the H-1 was built using Federal Interstate highway funds. If one goes far enough back, it can be noted that the interstate highway system was conceived inthe days of the cold war as a nationwide highway network over which the military could move when and if needed.
One might also recall that when the interstate highway system was instituted as a defense program, the Secretary of Defense was Charlie Wilson, CEO of General Motors.
The "interstate" in Honolulu is NOT I-10. It is "H-1". Why they even have an "interstate" in Hawaii raises a lot of questions, as they'd need one hell of a long bridge to make it a true interstate.
The real reason is that the H-1 was built using Federal Interstate highway funds. If one goes far enough back, it can be noted that the interstate highway system was conceived inthe days of the cold war as a nationwide highway network over which the military could move when and if needed.
Several "Interstates" in addition to Hawaii's are located entirely within a single state. Some of these include I-4 (Florida), I-17 and I-19 (both Arizona), I-43 (Wisconsin), I-97 (Maryland) and I-99 (Pennsylvania). Texas has three single-state Interstates, I-27, I-37 and I-45. The latter of these is interesting, as Interstates ending in a 0 or 5 are supposed to be long, important ones.
I-99 (Pennsylvania).
All Hail Bud Shuster! King of bringing the federal money home to the 9th Congressional district of central Pennsylvania!
BTW If you want to DRIVE I-99 and many other roads w/o leaving your PC go to this website http://www.kurumi.com/roads/signmaker/drive.html
Trippy Drive 71 is a Java based Freeway driving simulator that simulated all the Freeways Connecticut wanted to build in 1971. It also simulated a trek accross the country on the completed I-99.
There are also interstates which pop up sporadically and are disjointed, so to speak. I-76 for example turns up in Colorado and Pennsylvania. It was formerly known as I-80S. I-84 appears in Utah and/or Wyoming, then reappears in Pennsylvania and continues through New York and Connecticut before tying into the Mass. Pike. It was supposed to go to Providence from Hartford, but construction was killed by environmentalists and the funds were used to rebuild what had been the old Wilbur Cross Highway. A few segments of what was supposed to be I-84 were built a la the 2nd Ave. line.
Never, EVER mention I99 to a road geek. It just infuriates them, as does I238.
-Hank
What's I-238?
An upgrade of SR-238 in Fremont, CA. It doesn't connect to I-38 for one simple reason: There's no such thing!
It's a 2-mile highway that connects 2 of the x80 routes in the SF Bay area. It's basically an upgraded state highway. There is no I38, and if there was, it wouldn't be in northern California. Interstates were numbered south-north, and west-east. Even numbers are used for east-west highways (I80, I78) and odd numbers for north-south (I95, I5) This only applies to 1- or 2-digit interstates. 3-digit interstates are spurs and loops of the 1 or 2 digits (ie, I280 meets I80, I195 meets I95) The 'rules' also say that odd first digits on 3di's mean they're 1-way spurs and only connect to the main at one point, and even first digits mean they loop and meet the higway again. (I395 and I495 in Metro DC are the best examples) Of course, it rarely works this way. Best source of info for NY Metro highways is nycroads.com. The site has links to many other road sites as well.
-Hank
Never, EVER mention I99 to a road geek. It just infuriates them, as does I238.
Ah yes, that was careless of me. Dunno what I was thinking of :-)
>>> The "interstate" in Honolulu is NOT I-10. It is "H-1" <<<
I know when I was there in 1967 there were signs designating the highway as I-10. I guess they changed the designation to "H" because of all the tourists making bad jokes about looking for the tunnel to California. The real reason Hawaii was included in the Interstate Highway program was not so much for national defense as it was political reality that if federal highway funds were going to be expended, Hawaii (and specifically large contractors there) had enough political clout to get its share.
Tom
They pay gas taxes same as the rest of us.
Out here we have some intersting plates such as the "Red Lake Indian Nation." I have also heard of one from "Antartica."
Elias
There's a late-model Dodge Ram in the Eatontown area with US Virgin Islands plates on it... its usual driver has an old-line flattop and wears oak leaf clusters on his uniform. And there are a number of vehicles with Alaska plates on them in the area, all thanks to Ft. Monmouth and Naval Weapons Station Earle.
When we were in Québec last month we spotted a '68 or '69 Acadian with Northwest Territories plates - those plates are shaped like a polar bear. The territory of Nunavut also has similar plates.
For a picture of a sample Nunavut plate, click here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've seen a Gaum plate. The number was GUM486. Guess they don't have that many cars. Can anybody get plate 000001 or AAA000 or 1 or 0
Hank, I've seen a few Alaska plates on S.I. most likely Coast Guard folks stationed here for a while. Once saw a guy with Hawaii plates, had to ask him how the car got here, he said he was just discharged from the navy and they shipped his car back for him. Strangest was a few weeks back I saw an SUV with French license plates driving out of the Teleport.
I saw a car with Alaska plates once on US 46 just before Rt. 3 branches off. They're more common out west; I see them from time to time in metro Denver.
Once in Olathe, KS I saw a white plate with black stripes top and bottom with small letters US and a number on it. Anyone have any idea what was that.
Arti
IIRC, these are plates issued to Armed Forces personel in foreign countries.
-Hank
Does anybody know if Outlook Express can be configurated to display the subtalk messages? How can I do it? I think need the NNTP News Server address.
Thanks for your answers!
SubTalk isn't run on NNTP... the only interface is the web CGI script.
I wonder if it's possible to write a program that would read SubTalk, and include cool features, all the while preserving the current system UNMODIFIED. It would be totally client based.
I guess if I wanted this to happen, I should learn how to do it.
Easiest way would be to mirror all posts on a newsgroup, which I think would be great and a lot faster and easier to manage than the current web-based system.
Alt.rec.transit.subtalk? Most ISPs will let you found newsgroups for a relatively nominal fee.
Chris
Easier for who? Not for me. It's just additional overhead and demands on my time. You probably weren't around to remember, but I actually tried this once before. I think it's safe to say that a NNTP interface to subtalk (in this case, the archives) was a rousing failure...
If you really want to use a news interface, go to nyc.transit. It's not like that group is overwhelmed with posts. It could use the additional traffic. (IMHO nyc.transit used to be a lot more interesting. I wonder if it's partly SubTalk's fault that it's not.)
IMHO nyc.transit used to be a lot more interesting. I wonder if it's partly SubTalk's fault that it's not.
I'd say that daily message traffic on nyc.transit is about half of what it was a couple years ago. Dunno if SubTalk is the reason, but I certainly find SubTalk's format more useful and the posts much better.
Gnus (the Emacs newsreader) has the ability to parse some of the web message board formats out there, but I tried it here without success. If anyone's interested in doing a bit of Lisp hacking to get it to work, I, for one, would be most grateful. (I, for one, can't stand the web interface. I like my newsreader -- and if I didn't, I can reconfigure it so I would.)
Has anyone ever considered a "mock" NNTP interface to SubTalk? You could connect to, say, nntp://news.nycsubway.org and be able to access only a couple of groups, say, nycsubway.subtalk and nycsubway.bustalk. It wouldn't be a "real" NNTP server in the traditional sense, but something that reads SubTalk messages and presents them to a newsreader. It wouldn't necessarily have that much of a speed advantage over SubTalk, but it would let users choose their own interface. Should be something that DP could handle, and if not, I might even be willing to toss some code at it.
But I agree with you, this web interface is suboptimal.
Mark
> Should be something that DP could handle, and if not, I might even
> be willing to toss some code at it.
Could I write it? Sure. Am I interested? No...I don't have the time to digest the NNTP spec... but feel free to send me something if you think it's worth your effort. No promises I'll actually install it, though.
If you do write such an interface (and David does choose to install it), I assure you I will be a far more regular SubTalk/BusTalk reader. Since it takes so much longer to navigate the web interface than it does to read conventional news, I only find myself here when I have lots of free time (or I'm procrastinating). The ability to post would also be nice, but I see how that could get a bit hairy.
What about my idea of parsing the web interface?
While we're at it, does ANYBODY here know JavaScript (and I mean know it, not just a few codes) and would like to work on the chat room code?
after 71 Av Cont. do the R and G go through Jamiaca yard to turn around or do they use the lay up tracks and the t/o walk the lengh of he train to revese the direction?
They use the middle layup tracks (tracks 7&8)downstairs in the vicinity of the 75th Ave. station and walk through the train to change directions. Some trains also go on a "long relay" on 6 track and go all the way to the Jamaica Yard lead but not all the way into the yard itself and change ends there. Tracks 7&8 can hold two relays each during the regular work day. Track 6 can only hold one relay and track 5 remains open during regular hours for yard moves and by Continental, track 5 holds lay-ups/put-ins.
thanks....
How often do you see this? 240th St Yard (#1) sent an R-62A set out for assignment on the 2 Line for a run between 241 St and Flatbush Av today. It was only brief, but it ran. It ran light to Manhattan after the morning rush. Replete with signs for the 7th Av Express, this train looked like it was a part of the 2 Line fleet. I wonder why this was done?
-Stef
I just noticed that today during my 8th grade class......
hmmm....that is quite strange
That wasn't the only one.
Today at about 8:10AM at 96th St. there was an R-62A #1 Train going uptown on the #2 line, as was announced at the station. That train however was still "dressed" as a #1.
09/23/2000
That's funny since when the R-62A's were delivered, they were all signed up #2.
Bill "Newkirk"
CNN's analysis of the Los Angeles transit strike has some observations which apply quite well to Nassau County's threats to pull the plug on Long Island Bus's subsidies. According to CNN, a transit strike in Los Angeles is something not beyond the realm of possibility because most transit users are lower-income and lacking in political power. In other words, the people who are suffering from the current strike, and others in the past, really aren't in much of a position to do anything about it. CNN notes that New York City is very different, with a transit system used by the politically and economically powerful as well as by the powerless, and therefore it's no surprise that there hasn't been a transit strike in many years. Big shots wouldn't tolerate the inconvenience.
Nassau County unfortunately has a lot more in common with Los Angeles than it does with NYC. With some exceptions, Long Island Bus riders tend toward the lower end of the economic spectrum. Many of them are city residents reverse-commuting or heading to Nassau's malls, and therefore don't even have a voice in local politics. It's no surprise that County Executive Gulotta finds bus subsidies a tempting target. The people who'll be affected by subsidy cuts can't fight back. Gulotta could save far more money by slashing the county's grotesquely bloated and overpaid public sector. Ah, but those people would be a tough enemy. And no one ever accused politicians of bravery.
(It's no surprise that County Executive Gulotta finds bus subsidies a tempting target. The people who'll be affected by subsidy cuts can't fight back.)
I think you are correct, but there is another factor.
Gulotta is hoping to make the rest of the state subsidize Nassau County. He's already gotten $100 million. That has NEVER, EVER happened before -- when New York's older cities were bailed out, they were forced to pay it all back with interest. And, he got the MTA to loan him millions of dollars that will never be paid back. Now he believes that the local share of Long Island Bus can be eliminated, with the MTA making it up with fare increases or service cuts elsewhere, while NYC's payments to the TA are maintained. So, in effect, the people he is counting on to be powerless are the people of New York City.
But this can't go on. Upstate New York was upset about the LIPA bailout, but its representatives voted for it because it was aid to fellow predominantly white Republican areas. Upstate New York legislators voted for the $100 million in aid and picking up more of the Long Island Bus subsidy for the same reason, but the people up there weren't happy. Putting a gun to your own head and demanding money under John Lindsay is exactly what made New York City so despised elsewhere in the state and nation. But that was a long time ago. If this keeps up, Nassau is going to take New York City's place in the mind of Upstate voters. McCall is going to hang Nassau County around Pataki's neck in 2002.
Gulotta really knows how to look a gift horse in the mouth! The state already bailed him out of a fortune in MTA LI Bus subsidies a few months ago, and here he is again demanding more.
The Nassau County GOP leadership should be in jail for the future they stole away from Nassau County. Because of them, the place I grew up is dying economically.
(The Nassau County GOP leadership should be in jail for the future they stole away from Nassau County. Because of them, the place I grew up is dying economically. )
Urban legend has it that these are the descendents of the very people who sucked the life out of Brooklyn (as Democrats) and left it for dead 50 years ago. Where are they going to go next? Suffolk?
Gulotta is hoping to make the rest of the state subsidize Nassau County. He's already gotten $100 million. That has NEVER, EVER happened before -- when New York's older cities were bailed out,
they were forced to pay it all back with interest. And, he got the MTA to loan him millions of dollars that will never be paid back. Now he believes that the local share of Long Island Bus can be eliminated, with the MTA making it up with fare increases or service cuts elsewhere, while NYC's payments to the TA are maintained ... Putting a gun to your own head and demanding money under John Lindsay is exactly what made New York City so despised elsewhere in the state and nation. But that was a long time ago. If this keeps up, Nassau is going to take New York City's place in the mind of Upstate voters.
Gulotta isn't just putting a gun to his head; he's playing Russian Roulette with five loaded chambers. Nassau County may very well find itself subject to a fiscal control board if these shenanigans continue much longer. With a board in place, Gulotta's powers will be much diminished, and in fact I don't see him continuing in office for very long. Nassau's public sector unions will be in for a surprise themselves; expect to see massive "re-engineering" and pay cuts. And at least in my view, Gulotta and Co. are quite naive indeed if they think this won't happen. It would be one thing if Nassau's economy were in poor shape. People then would be more understanding and would give the county more time to work out its financial woes. But things are different now. Nassau is a prosperous area with a thriving economy. It's obvious to anyone that the financial woes are the result of mismanagement, greed, and probably outright theft. Lindsay may have gotten some sympathy in the 1960's. Gulotta won't today.
[he's playing Russian Roulette with five loaded chambers.]
During the cold war, this was known as Chinese roulette. There was a saying that in the U.S. the optimists were learning Russian and the pessimists were learning Chinese.
(Nassau County may very well find itself subject to a fiscal control board if these shenanigans continue much longer. With a board in place, Gulotta's powers will be much diminished, and in fact I don't see him continuing in office for very long. Nassau's public sector unions will be in for a surprise themselves; expect to see massive "re-engineering" and pay cuts.)
That's actually the best solution in many ways. Maybe Gulotta knows this, but doesn't want to take the blame, so is screwing around to force a takeover.
[And at least in my view, Gulotta and Co. are quite naive indeed if they think this won't happen. It would be one thing if Nassau's economy were in poor shape. People then would be more understanding and would give the county more time to work out its financial woes. But things are different now. Nassau is a prosperous area with a thriving economy. It's obvious to anyone that the financial woes are the result of mismanagement, greed, and probably outright theft. Lindsay may have gotten some sympathy in the 1960's. Gulotta won't today.]
Yeah, Ghoulotta and Co. are a bunch of clowns. The jig is up. Time for some young bloods to take over Nassau Co. politics. Hasn't Gulotta been in there for close to 20 years or something?
BMTman
Keep in mind that the MTA, through its Long Island Bus subsidary, is merely a CONTRACT CARRIER for Nassau County.
The County itself is responsible for the service, and those "subsidies" are really contractually-obligated payments on which the County is now reneging.
And how true it is. Nassau county buses serve people without any power. People who lack money and wealth. People like me.
At least there is an easy solution to this. Just make the rich pay.
There so many damn wealthy snobs in this county. Let them pay for this mess.
Whatever it takes, we, the poor and middle class must topple this regime run by the rich!!!
Whatever it takes, we, the poor and middle class must topple this regime run by the rich!!!
And the working animals must topple the regime of Jones and his oppreseive humans.
>>> At least there is an easy solution to this. Just make the rich pay.
There so many damn wealthy snobs in this county. Let them pay for this mess.
Whatever it takes, we, the poor and middle class must topple this regime run by the rich!!! <<<
Was that woman I just saw doing her knitting Madame Defarge?? :-)
Tom
first of all the MTA board with thier THAJ MAJHAL or ""LUXURY SUITE""
building next to the union station should have never been built!!
Downtown Los Angeles there are many fine new buildings BEGGING for tennants !! The RED line in which was 100% uncompatible with the BLUE & GREEN lines. The GREEN line in which does not go to the Airport LAX
overspending corruption kickbacks crookery you name it !!!!!!!!
They blew millions that should have gone to the RAILS not in thier pockets!! & to neglect the BUSES drivers & the transit riding public is the worst crime of all !! Now the chickens come home to roost !!!
STRIKE !!!!!!
Have any of you LIRR riders noticed the progress on the Airtrain ROW over the Van Wyck the last month or so? It looks like they have finished erecting all of the uprights all the way to Atlantic Ave., where I assume the ROW will now turn toward the east. Better get those last few photos of Jamaica Station before it turns into this!
Wow! Did you notice the R38s in the "Howard Beach" aerial and platforms views? Looking good. I wonder how an R68A would look on that thing.
running on...
or
Have any of you LIRR riders noticed the progress on the Airtrain ROW over the Van Wyck the last month or so? It looks like they have finished erecting all of the uprights all the way to Atlantic Ave.,
where I assume the ROW will now turn toward the east.
I'm quite impressed at the pace of construction. It's hard to believe that transit-related work could proceed at such a pace. Sorry to say this, but the MTA could never get things accomplished at this pace. Kudos to the Port Authority.
Well look how long it took the MTA to buy modern-looking subway cars with A/C.
I am afraid that the project, when completed, will flop.
AirTran lacks the one feature that was originally the rationale for a such a system - a SEAMLESS, ONE-SEAT ride between JFK and Manhattan. Airtran cannot offer that, and I do not understand why people would want to use it.
Have you ever ridden the shuttle bus that connects JFK's terminals with the Howard Beach subway station? I use that bus every time I visit New York because I prefer the A train over any other method of getting to Manhattan from JFK. Not very pleasant, and the Airtrain will be a big improvement and a time saver. I agree that a one-seat ride would have been preferable. On the same subject, any chance that the JFK Express might be revived?
Anything is beter than that shuttle bus. After an eight hour flight over the last place I want to ride around is the long term car park. Agreed, a one seat journey is better but the airtriain should be a big improvement.
Its a pity it won't be running when I come over in November for Subway Tour No 7
Simon
Swindon UK
(I use that bus every time I visit New York because I prefer the A
train over any other method of getting to Manhattan from JFK.)
Would you use it if it cost $5.00 instead of nothing? That is the preliminary Port Authority plan (more screwing NYC). They need the money to keep the PATH fare at $1.00.
Let's say they cut it back to $1.00. In that case, I've seen what the Port Authority has in mind. At other airports, they have special on-airport transit systems to move you around the terminals. It's like a horizontal elevator. In this case, their thinking is that when you get to Howard Beach or Jamaica you will be "at the airport." If they have remote check-in and baggage check, it might work.
09/23/2000
[On the same subject, any chance that the JFK Express might be revived? ]
Nope, AIRTRAIN will keep that from happening.
Bill "Newkirk"
I also agree///this will be a major flop..IMO for many reasons.....
Business people..will take a Cab or Limo...to JFK..(on their Expense a/c)..Vacationers/Families..with Kids & Luggage..are not about to deal with the Subway/LIRR...then have to change...
Another..thought...the plan is to operate 24/7,,,Leaving JFK after midnite..to Ride the subway...then the fact that there is little or no LIRR Service! Late Nights...///...From What I have read, they expect some ridership from airport employees...But not more then 30%....Guess we will all have to wait & see.
For one thing, most people don't live in Manhattan and a one seat ride from Manhattan is just as useful as one from Jamaica. For me, you can forget any kind of transit, it'll be either car service or long term parking.
And JFK is not New York's business airport, most business flights that aren't international are from LGA.
Finally, even with an expense account, the person will choose the fastest route to the airport. If that happens to be the airtrain, then so be it.
I think they should have extended the 3 train or maybe something off the Archer Ave extension (that was, of course, the original plan, waaaay back when.)
The Airtrain seems to go out of its way not to serve Queens residents. That's a terrible shame, because we really need more subway here.
It's also expensive and looks like it will be difficult to use.
Andrew
The Airtrain seems to go out of its way not to serve Queens residents. That's a terrible shame, because we really need more subway here.
The way I understood it, Airtrain was not allowed to serve any Queens residents because it uses the Passenger Facility Charge. The Port Authority already had to fight the airlines to use the PFC on an Airtrain that serves only people going to the airport (airlines said it isn't an "on airport" improvement and shouldn't qualify). Adding service for Queens residents as a subway extension would certainly have meant that the PFC funds would be rendered ineligible.
I'm a resident of Queens, and I plan to definitely use the Airtrain. Right now, I go out of my way NOT to use JFK. I'll choose Newark if LGA doesn't work out, because I can transfer from the subway to an Olympia Trails Newark Airport bus in Manhattan, which will take me right to one of the 3 terminals at EWR. That's one transfer to a bus to one of 3 terminals. With airtrain, it will be one transfer too, from the Queens IND to Airtrain at Jamaica, which will take me directly to the terminal on its own ROW, without having to nuts around with a shuttle bus riding all over hell's 1/2 acre at JFK. Personally, I can't wait for Airtrain.
I don't think Airtrain is that useful to people in the 5 boroughs, unless you live near Jamaica, but I can see it being useful to people in Long Island, especially the people futher east.
If you live in Manhattan or the Bronx, first you have to get to Penn Station, then wait for your train, then take it to Jamaica, then switch to the airtrain. This could come out to the same amount of time as the A train would, but alot more money than the A train.
But suppose you live in Islip or East of there, and are going on a 7 day trip to Paris. You can opt to drive to the airport, wait in traffic, find a parking spot, and then when you return pay the parking bill, on top of the gas you had to buy. Or you can either take the L.I.R.R to Jamaica for $7.00 to $14.00 bucks round trip, depending how far east you live, then change for the airtrain and pay how much ever that costs (I suppose it's not more than $5.00 one-way). It let's you off close to your terminal, and bam you're in JFK in under 1 1/2 hrs all relaxed. On the other hand, if you're traveling with more than 4 people, it might be cheaper to take your car, although it might take longer.
BTW, I also heard, just a rumor though, that the airtrain might get extended to Penn Station later on. Is this true???
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Penn Station is not in the FEIS or the DEIS...where are you hearing this from
Steve
OEM
I don't get you. Please clarify.
Thanks
I know that EIS is Environmental Impact Statement, but what do the F and D stand for? As in FEIS and DEIS.
You all seem determined to write it of before it has even opened. People want easy and relatively cheap transprt to and from the airport, just look how crowded London Underground trains get to and from Heathrow.
Your arguement for it's shortfall is that it is not one seat. Please be assured that the present arrangements for the traveller are awful and a real disappointment to the traveller.
I have used buses, taxis,and the Subway. My choice is the Subway even though the shuttle bus trip is as hard to stomach as a British Airways in flight meal. What is being built must be a lot better. My only doubt is the fare and the servive from Jamaca to Penn.
Give it a chance!
Simon
Swindon UK
Why are you responding to me? I'm not the one who wants to write it off.
No, and I am sorry if my post gave that impression. From posts by others the general attitude seems to be the Airtrain is doomed to fail. I really hope it suceeds and with BAA bidding to take over the running of JFK as they do already at Newark, JFK should be much improved.
Simon
Swindon UK
F = Final
D = Draft
I don't remember mentioning anything about FEIS or DEIS in my post, unless it was unstated, but understood. I don't even have a clue about the meaning of FEIS or DEIS. I was just responding to a post about the airtrain and who would ride it!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
09/23/2000
I noticed on the concrete roadbed under running third rail. I also noticed concrete walls a couple of feet high on the structure. If heavy snow occurs will this pose a problem to the third rail with snow accumulating in this enclosed area ? Why not under running third rail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The lack of RAIL FREIGHT facilities will continue to make JFK only partially usable.
Although it has been discussed before, the PA's decision to not reuse the old Rockaway branch row seems like a big waste of money, and then to put an el down the middle of the Van Wyck, further wrecking havoc on JFK employees (like myself) and travelers for years. Notice that there are only two tracks, and no stations in between. I agree it will fail.
I wonder if they plan to reuse the old Rkwy row for freight only use to JFK to connect with existing lines up north. Then all that large cargo can have an alternate to trucking it over our already weight damamged streets.
To re-use the Rockaway ROW, they would have to clear away hundreds of trees and plants, completely rebuild several bridges, evict the homeless from where the ROW goes under roads (Forest Park), tell little league parents they can no longer use the embankment as bleacher space, destroy a school bus company, destroy a park for an apartment building, cut through a long, paved thing (I forgot what that was just s. of the Lower Montauk), re-fence, tell residents they no longer have extra backyard space (frequently I see lawn chairs and kiddie pools on the ROW), and most importantly figure out a way to merge with the NYCT ROW without any track connections. Living 1/2 mile away from the Rockaway line, I would of course love its reactivation, but it ain't happening.
destroy a school bus company
And this is supposed to be a bad thing?
All of whom are encroaching on the property illegally. And 'destroy' a school bus copmpany? I don't think so. They'll just have to move to a space where they'll be forced to pay rent.
-Hank
A lot of the criticism of Airtrain is probably sour grapes from nostalgia buffs
I drive the Van Wyck daily. They have the supports up as far as Liberty Ave. From the Airport to Rockaway Blvd, the trackway is in place. Beyond Liberty Ave, there are some missing, and they are still doing underpining work. Between Liberty and Atlantic, most supports are up, but they are still doing underpining work between 109
Thanks for the update. I recently observed the same thing and they are moving along at a brisk pace. However, I found not a hint of the line at Jamaica Station. The construction seems to fall off the edge of the earth. Has anything been started there to your knowledge?
I drive the Van Wyck daily. They have the supports up as far as Liberty Ave. From the Airport to Rockaway Blvd, the trackway is in place. Beyond Liberty Ave, there are some missing, and they are still doing underpining work. Between Liberty and Atlantic, most supports are up, but they are still doing underpining work between
I drive the Van Wyck daily. They have continuous supports up as far as Liberty Ave. From the Airport to Rockaway Blvd, the trackway is in place. Beyond Liberty Ave, there are some missing, and they are still doing underpining work. Between Liberty and Atlantic, most supports are up, but they are still doing underpining work between 109 and Atlantic.
-Hank
(Sorry for the multiple post, I kept hitting 'return' instead of 'backspace')
I know that cities with newer subway systems like Washington and San Francisco have huge parking garages, but what about older systems. I know that Boston has parking and New York CERTAINLY DOES NOT. But what about Philadelphia (SEPTA, not PATCO), Chicago and other places with older subways?
Do they have lots attached to older stations, or just on newer extensions (which doesn't apply to Philadelphia and New York)?
CTA's website lists parking at fifteen stations:
http://www.transitchicago.com/maps/park.html
The majority of these are on new lines (my arbitrary definition of "new" begins with 1958, the opening of the Congress line, now the Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line). However, 54/Cermak, Kimball, Kedzie/Lawrence, Howard, and Linden are on older parts of the system.
Aside from station parking as such, several stations are near city or private parking garages or structures.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
So it's obvious that it's just New York's fault why big stations near highways don't have garages, like Pelham Bay Park, Sheepshead Bay, Aqueduct-North Conduit.
(So it's obvious that it's just New York's fault why big stations near highways don't have garages, like Pelham Bay Park, Sheepshead Bay, Aqueduct-North Conduit. )
You'd run into some heavy NIMBY issues -- "Why build a parking garage to bring traffic through my neighborhood so other people can us my train." Here in NYC, people scream NIMBY when you propose an elementary school.
Also, lots of people DO park and ride, on the street. It's free. So, to attract customers a parking garage would have to be free also -- or a least a free transfer with a Metrocard, as from a bus. So there would be no revenue flow to finance the facility. Plus, land is scarce, so it would have to be a multi-level garage, not a cheap plane of asphalt.
In many places, they extend trains to shopping centers and other facilities with big parking lots that are little used on weekdays. Some Staten Island express buses set out from parking lots that way. There was talk of extending the #7 to the Meadowlands for Park-n-ride.
If they were to toll the East River Bridges and use congestion prices, they could use some of the added revenues to build parking garages. I'd be for it. Even the Daily News is on board. Not so the politicians and their cronies, who park on the street in Manhattan for free.
The problem with street parking is that you can't park in the same place every day (alternate side) forcing people to move to other stations, and if you don't arrive at 6 AM, you're SOL.
Garages provide additional parking above that which is already there. Currently, if I can't find any parking, my only choice is to drive to the city and pay up the wazoo for a garage.
I know the signal division of the NYCTA performs a lot of different functions, but when CBTC really goes on line will this really reduce the role signals division plays as far moving subway trains in the system?
The signal dept. will still perform maintenance on the CBTC equipment on the roadbed.
Today I rode the 7 from Main Street to Times Square. After getting off, I brought the new 2001 NYC Subways calendar. Then I got on the 6 Train back at GCT and got off at 51st street. Tell me y I saw 9 F Trains in a row with 3 minute headways in between! I talked to nearby superintendents, and They said there was a Track fire earlier today. An E finally came, but it was a R46 so I was happy. The good thing is now I know a Chief Trainmaster who will email me when a TA test comes out. Maybe I should tell him about this site?
"The good thing is now I know a Chief Trainmaster........"
There is no chief trainmaster. The trainmaster title was done away with in the mid - late 80s.
I bet Frank Corrall would have fought that to the bitter end.:-)
If you want to find out when a TA test is scheduled, go to:
www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/hr/civexam.htm
or pick up a copy of "The Chief". Check each one out twice a month.
Hmmm... where can one pick a copy of "The Chief"?
running on...
or
At the place which sells lottery tickets, newspapers, magazines, etc. Look for the the red printing at the top.
You can pick one up at your local newsstand. It's published once a week (I believe on Thursday).
Or you could get lucky and pick one up for free on the seat of 5200 running on.........
The PM rush was a disaster because it couldn't get underway. A sick passenger who needed and ambulance at Lex/53rd sent those F trains already in Manhattan to 21 St, those not were sent Crosstown from Bergen to Queens Plaza while E trains got sent uptown. While this was going on, a smoke conditon at 23/Ely sent E trains from Queens over the BMT and F's via Crosstown. Because of all the equipment out of place, the railroad was never able to recover till after the rush.
Sounds horrible. I'm glad I got out at 3pm and beat the rush.
BTW, today 6th ave was a mess with no B and D service due the MB track work.
Perhaps this is a taste of things to come on 6th avenue IND?
Also today all southbound IRT Lexington trains ran on the express track creating a slow ride from 42nd to Brooklyn. Saw several work and garbage trains parked around Canal street with workers tearing up the tracks. What is all that work about?
And I got an unexpected treat of riding a 7 train from Flushing that ran on the express track due to work.
Bill- thanks for the info. We should be glad NYCT has all these alternate connections built in. Can you imagine the chaos if let's say the G did not exist and the BMT only went to Astoria!
Once the 63rd St. extension is open, operational flexibility will be accomplished as the 53rd St. line would be able to be bypassed. Of course, the E trains would have to use Sixth Ave. to/from W4th. The most confusing thing for the passengers will be this: the service will stop at Lexington Ave. They will wrongly assume that an IRT transfer is availiable there.
Last night I was on an E at around 3pm and we crawled through the 53rd street tubes, coming to a stop for 1 minute. Lots of track workers by the Queens portal and a smell of smoke around 23-Ely.
Does anybody know when the R143 arrives to the "J", "M", "Z", and "L" what will they do with the R40M and R42 will they send it to another line? By what year will the R143 will be in complete service?
From a recent post here by Trevor Logan, they are supposed to arrive in February 2001, and test on the L, and then start revenue service on the L in June. As for the J, Z, M etc.. I don't know when they will get them
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
The M will get the overflow from the L and the cars will be used for off peak OPTO. None of them would go to the J and Z.
You won't see any R143 on TA property in Feb. 2001. The whole program is way behind schedule.
From what I read in the new transit guide, the R-143 Will not arrive until 2002.
The new transit guide? Is that a TA employee guide or can anyone get it?
If your transit guide proves to be right, that's gonna spell trouble for Queens Blvd riders! That or get ready for 6-car trains on the Eastern Division. Brace yourselves, Queens Blvd and Eastern Division riders!
The extension will not open full time until after the R143's are on line so other cars can get transfered where needed. The extension is supposed to be open in a few months and will be used for general orders and reroutes during service interruptions on the 53rd St. line. but not for regular service.
"From a recent post here by Trevor Logan, they are supposed to arrive in February 2001, and test on the L, and then start revenue service on the L in June. As for the J, Z, M etc.. I don't know when they will get them"
While trevor Logan is likely a very nice person, he has no connection with the MTA NYC Transit Department of Subways. He apparently has no source of reliable information from within the DOS either. Any information that he has is hear-say or rumor. All you are doing is perpetuation the mis-information he has posted. Personally, I don't care but why would you want to post false information? I would think that you'd want to be sure of your facts or your source of information before you link your name to it.
I don't believe any "official" information I see here, unless it's posted by you. I urge others to do the same.
Don't even believe me! I get lots of incorrect information, too.
LOL. But at least you admit that. You're as an accurate source of information as anyone who posts here. Your opinions and predictions carry more weight than most people's "facts". And I just LOVE how you shoot down all these brilliant ideas I come up with to improve service every now and then :-)
Case Rest, I'll shall post no more!!!!!!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I agree, while I don't like Traindud personally, I would hate to see him leave SUBTALK because he his quite knowledgable and informative. However Traindud, you can cut down on the Bob Grant references.
Good one on the truck driver delivering books to work sites!
"I agree, while I don't like Traindud personally, I would hate to see him leave SUBTALK because he his quite knowledgable and informative."
That's quite a compliment coming from the "Bus Weenie".
Actually, someone posted the same thing after Trevor did so you can assume Trevor and the other person who posted heard correctly.
No, they were just echoing Trevor's message. Steve is closer to the source than anyone else on this board, and he is also bluntly honest about saying "I don't know" when he doesn't know, rather than speculate on what might be. Like Trevor and some others, I don't have any connection with MTA; also like them, I've heard rumors from people who do work for the TA. But you don't see me posting any of them here, regardless of whether or not they line up with what other people have heard, because I don't consider them to be from an authoritative source.
In a parallel vein, I hear a lot of rumors about things within my own company, from my immediate peers and the next level of management above me, but I don't believe too many of them either because most of those folks don't know what's going on three levels of management up. (As a project manager I have more and better information than my boss does in many areas, and I've still only got a partial idea of what upper management has in mind for the future.) And the rumors I hear circulating among the people who work for me are even more outlandish. Every organization's the same in that regard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good post!
I am a supervisor in MABSTOA and I hear lots of rumors. But I will not post them here till I read them for myself in a transit newsletter, etc. I read lots of rumors and so forth posted here by folks who don't even work for NYC transit and I won't even answer them because I know who I work for, who pays me well, and trains me well for my beloved NYC transit!
You can ASSume anything you want. That doesn't mean it is correct. Case in point: How many authoritive posts have there been about where cars will be assigned once the 'Flip Service' goes into effect? Thursday at 1:00 PM, there was a meeting to decide what casrs will go where. The only thing that was finalized during that meeting (according to the information I received) is that the Division of Car Equipment will decide what cars go where in order to meet Operations-Planning's requirements. Of course, until I see this in writing, it's only more grist from the rumor mill.
The fact is there are people here, posting their fantasies as facts and others are picking up the balls and running with them (forgive the mixed metephore).
And if that source is the same? Now he's provided the wrong information to 2 people. Ever hear of Will Overhead?
-Hank
Or Ms. Conception?:-)
I was not confirming that the TA will have R143's on the L line in February, yet merely passing on information that was posted here earlier, by a fellow SubTalker, that responds to this person's question. I, as well, do not always believe the information that I hear on SubTalk or BusTalk, until it becomes a reality, or unless posted by a transit official. I would hope that everybody on this board, would know enough not to always believe uncertain replies posted by non-transit officials.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSITiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Sorry for the bold type!!!
I understand your position. However, it's just that every time a story gets repeated, it becomes 'truer'. Besides, you quoted trevor as a credible source of information.
BTW: I don't want to bash trevor because he's not the only person who does this and he has not done so with mallice.
I completely agree with you that every time a story gets repeated it becomes "truer". But again, I was just repeating what a fellow subtalker said, whether he is credible or not. I think you understand that my intentions weren't meant to be misleading or anything of that nature. I probably should have reworded my sentence. I would also like to apologize to Trevor for bringing him into all of this.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Train Dude, I've tried being nice but now I have to be blundt.
First off, you don't know who I know in the TA, Off hand my total TA sources consist of 1 Person in DOS, 4 in Scheduling, 1 in Planning, 3 in DOB. So before you make a comment like "he has no connection with the MTA NYC Transit Department of Subways. He apparently has no source of reliable information from within the DOS either", be sure your facts are clear too. Though I am not a TA employee, I am a NJ Transit Employee which helps me further in getting in contact with other Authorites........Guessing that if I was not a NJT employee I would probably not get as much info as I do get.
Secondly, I also admit when I am wrong, take it with the punches and move on. Now I don't know if you are taking shots at me or not. BUT if you are, and in anyway trying to defer my character, Stop It!
And just like the following threads I've already read in reponse to this post. Everyone here shares information, sure none of it is even 100% correct, but 9 out of 10 times, stuff posted here happens close if not right on target.
That's all I have to say in response to the thread!
Trevor Logan
Trevor, I have goneout of my way not to be critical of you, just your information. With each post, I have added a disclaimer about false information floating around and how you have become a victim of it. As for my comment about you not having any connection with the department of subways - we both know what I meant. I meant that you do not work for the department of subways. However, I had no intention of 'outting you but since you have done it, let's make it clear. All those times you posted about being an employee of the MTA NYC Transit were false, right trevor? And I've known this how long, Trevor? And now you want everyone to believe you have reliable sources, Trevor? I'm sorry that your feelings were hurt but if you persist in posting false info., I will challange it.
I've never stated I was a "MTA" employee, as a matter of fact, I just said "transit employee" never stated "MTA or MaBSTOA or New York City Transit" out right, and that's why I've started saying NJ Transit so it can be clear! And you can go back to each post where I stated "transit employee" and you'll see I never once stated I was a MTA employee! So there was no outing! Be my guest challenge me, and if you want i'll be glad to give you my NJT home depot address and telephone number and name if you may so wish, BUT to respect Mr. Pirrman's message board, I will no longer handle "THIS" situation on SubTalk and in e-mail only, Have a nice day!
Thank You
Trevor Logan
Trevor, have you ever tried to end a sentence with a period? It's been bugging me for some time now, and I just had to say something about it.
-Hank
Top of the muffin to you!
The R143 will go to the L, supposedly leftovers to the M. Excess cars from ENY will be transfered elsewhere so the 63rd St. extension can begin regular service.
09/23/2000
Here's an R-153 question.
If the fleet is delivered and CBTC isn't ready can they run manual until CBTC is up and running ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. As I've mentioned a few times, the R-143 will be designed with "hot" and "cold" propulsion profiles. When the on-board equipment senses that it is in a CBTC zone and the CBTC and the on-b0ard equipment are both working properly, the "hot" profile will be activated. At other times, the "cold" profile will be in effect. The "cold" profile is equivalent to the present performance level of the fleet (i.e. no field shunting), while the "hot" profile will allow for higher speeds.
I've also been told that in order to get the cars in sooner, CBTC on-board equipment will be installed sometime AFTER they arrive on the property, instead of being installed at the factory.
David
I should have said "are designed," not "will be designed." Sorry for any confusion.
David
When will the CBTC be ready? And how will it work?
It's under contract now, and we're hoping it'll work WELL :-) Actually, it works by having the trains constantly in radio contact (the first "C" in CBTC -- "Communication") with the wayside and with each other, so that the system knows exactly where every train on the line is at any given time.
David
Some time back, the print and electronic media in the D.C. area carried stories about complaints from residents near the Green Line in the West Hyattsville area about sharp loud booms, resembling thunderclaps, as the Green Line outbound trains roared out of the tunnel in that area. These booms were so bad that in some cases they were reportedly causing cracks in walls. Havent heard anything recently about this problem, which was given serious attention and study by METRO officials, who were befuddled. No explanation or definite solution was offered at the time, although high speed exiting of the tunnel was bandied about as a possible culprit.
Riding the Green Line yesterday, I noticed that the train slowed down considerably when exiting the tunnel in question. Is this the quote solution unquote being used? Is this a temporary measure while engineers figure out another solution?
Never heard of a similar problem growing up in NYC. Of course, since I only came on the scene in the early forties, presumably such a problem--if it ever existed in NYC--had long been resolved.
The DC tunnel clearences are tight and the trains force a lot of wind ahead of them (similar to the R-40/42 trains on the L eastbound coming into Union Square), but outside of the Green Line trains breaking the sound barrier as they exit the tunnel, I can't think of why air exiting the tunnel would make that type of noise.
The design engineers, METRO officials and observers were aware of the points you made. Thats why I said they were befuddled. On paper the boom was not supposed to happen, but apparently it did. Residents were attempting to establish a causal relationship between cracks in their walls (visible in the TV coverage) and the thunderclap booms.
>>> about sharp loud booms, resembling thunderclaps, as the Green Line outbound trains roared out of the tunnel in that area. <<<
Joe;
Although this is clearly not a sonic boom in the same way a supersonic aircraft causes one, if there are close tolerances in the tunnel, then there could be an overpressure of air in front of the train which would reduce the flow of sound waves to the front of the train, and cause a boom when the train emerges. I seem to remember when riding in the deep tubes of London, trains approaching a station made very little noise (to someone waiting in the station) until they reached the station itself.
The solution would be to increase the diameter of the tunnel near the exit to reduce the pressure in front of the train, or build a shed at the exit with many small holes in it to diffuse the sound like a silencer on the barrel of a gun.
Tom
This reminds me of something I've noticed at the portal on Baltimore's Metro, north of Mondawmin. For most of the underground run, the inbound and outbound tubes are well-separated, except at stations and three crossovers. Just before the portal, the tubes come together, and the partition between them is perforated - perhaps to reduce radical changes in air pressure. I'm not aware of any noise complaints in the former Carlin's Park area; the portal is surrounded by houses on both sides of what used to be an amusement park and drive-in theatre.
When the Manhattan Bridge flip flop & the 63 St/Queens Blvd Connection are all in place in 2001. Will the changes still accur like this:
1)W trains will replace West End B trains in Brooklyn but what will it's terminus be in Manhattan or Queens.
2)Two Q trains will operate in Brooklyn replacing one D train service except that the diamond Q trains will operate express & the circle Q trains will operate local.
3)N trains will operate over the Manhattan Bridge Weekends ONLY.
4)F trains will operate via 63 St all times.
5)G trains will terminate at Court Sq all times.
6)B & D trains from Upper Manhattan will terminate at 34 St/6 Av.
7)V trains will operate between 71/Continental Av & 2 Av via the 53 St tunnel, is it just weekdays only.
Please post information on subtalk.
Some yes, some no, and some maybe. The service plan, which has not been released to the public yet, is still subject to change.
David
There has been plenty of discussion on these topics, but all of their information have been labeled as speculative and unofficial. Short answer: nobody knows for sure until someone gets them officially in writing. I really hate it when you hear about these things on Subtalk and thinking "hoo boy! finally some progress!", only to be shot down each time (like Iraqi S.C.U.D. Missiles) by other Subtalkers (the Patriot Missiles???) saying they are just rumors. Eventually someone with REAL official answers will come forward.
As you may or may not know, turnout has dropped considerably from the first few weeks of this and is now pretty much nonexistent.
I'm looking for suggestions to improve this.
In addition, I will no longer be attending the Saturday chats on a regular basis.
Reasoning is in the making.
I attended the chat room last Saturday, and no one was there, so I left. I guess, not enough people go on at or around the same time.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
What time did you come? I left really early last week. Earlier this week.
I told you that I would have been there if it wasn't for the Monty Python-a-thon.
I'm not blaming you.
In all fairness, maybe Saturday night isn't the best time to hold this. A weeknight chat -- say, Tuesday -- would probably work better for most of us because we've got other engagements Saturday night.
Chris
Saturday night isn't a good time for me usually. So far, I have been on only one chat. I would vote for a different day.
Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday are available.
I tried to join one night, but my browser/computer gave me some kind of security alert, so I decided not to continue.
What's wrong with a security alert?
The browser knows a program is there, it doesn't know if it's malicious or not. You do that based on trust of the provider, which is me. I'm not propogating any viruses.
Now the media is locked out it looks even more terrible than ever !!!
Transit dependants are now losing all of ther EMPLOYMENT & jobs !!!
looks like this STRIKE will last a long time ! Things could not be worse here !!!!!
>>> Now the media is locked out it looks even more terrible than ever !!!
Transit dependants are now losing all of ther EMPLOYMENT & jobs !!!
looks like this STRIKE will last a long time ! Things could not be worse here !!!!! <<<
Once again a little over statement. The blackout of news to the press is probably a sign that the two sides are going to get down to nuts and bolts bargaining rather than posturing for the press.
The TV news was able to locate one person who, as a new probationary employee lost his job because he could not get to work. Although the transit strike is undoubtably a hardship on many, most have found some way to cope. Life is continuing. It is not the apocalypse after all.
As far as things could not be worse, rain and cloudy skies have reduced the fire danger, and reduced the heat to the ‘70s making it easier for those walking instead of riding, and there have been no big earthquakes lately.
Tom
As far as things could not be worse:
Alas, things could be worse. Salaam could be a twin.
your worst nightmare !!! in about ONE HOUR from now it will be DAY 9
>>>and there have been no big earthquakes lately<<<
Too bad!
there are plenty of earthquakes scheduled for the EAST COAST ......
Hold on to your seats out there !!!!
"there are plenty of earthquakes scheduled for the EAST COAST ......
I know that I vowed not to respond to any of your posts but this one was to important not to. Can you please post the schedule of earthquakes for the east coast. I, for one, would like to get out in time.
BTW: I don't suppose that I need to post my usual comment about the village idiot. It should be pretty plain, this time.
thank you,
Mr. Baloney
Maybe an earthquake will solve the Manny B problem. Oh I forgot. They just spent a few years making it earthquake proof, but not train proof.
Who cares about L.A.? Its about 3,000 miles away from the real world!!!
Now !! you KNOW you always wanted to be a LAPD !!!!!
Does anybody know what the typeface (style) is for the numerals used by the Board of Transportation? I believe the same numeral type was used up until recently at ENY bus shops. They are also on the museum Lo-V's.
pictured on page 30 of the sunday daily news are some r36s which will be sunken to the bottom of the atlantic....now the crabs can get a seat during rush hour...and a tailfin widow with a rainfan window...
The concept is for marine life to use the cars as
coral reefs.Redbirds' New Line:Deep Six?
Before the redbirds can be scrapped, asbestos abatment must be done on each car. The current estimate is roughly $30,000,000.00 for the 1,000 cars to be scrapped. However, if the cars are used to form an artificial reef, the asbestos does not have to be removed. This will result in a major savings for the public.
Tuna with asbestos in - yum !
Simon
Swindon UK
Doesn't the TA pass the buck along to the scrap vendors for the abatement? In 1986, the cost of 6398 at scrap value was $600, although a bit lower thanks to then president David Gunn. Now I hear they are in the thousands of dollars to buy them at scrap value. Also, wouldn't any lead and mercury contaminate the fish down there, or would they make it a point to remove switches and thermostats? How much manpower would CED have to invest per car for this type of disposal over outright torching the cars. It would seem that Naporano's would be better for the environment as the steel would be recycled into other valuable resources.
I'm not an environmental expert but I don't think asbestos becomes a problem unless it becomes airborne. All oil and batteries would be removed from the cars before they get sent to Davey Jones Locker. However, the reality is that it becomes cheaper for the TA to give the redbirds away to rail fans and museums then to scrap them or sink them. Now lets do the math. If salaam took all 1,040 redbirds back to LA, he'd have 2,080 rail fan windows and he could go into competition with the LA subway system.
But the TA's current policy is that nothing shall leave the
property with a***os. Do you know if that is a self-imposed
policy or the result of some outside edict?
I'd only be guessing but I think the policy is due to EPA regulation. In this case, I think it involves only scrapped subway cars. Last week, I had my oil burner replaced. The cost was significantly less because my old oil burner contained no asbestos. Since the asbestos in the subway car is encapsulated and not likely to become air-borne in normal use, it should not require removal if the car will remain in ttact.
I have been told that the TA is negotiating with the EPA for an exemption to the regulation.
if the car will remain intact.
WIth the rust already on their bodies, I wonder what might happen first - would parts of the cars just rust away into nothing before the wildlife could attach itself to it and form some sort of protective barrier?
The sinking of subway cars is not unprecedented. PATH had some of their K-cars sunk as an artificial reef somewhere off the NJ coast. There was a SCUBA diver who worked for PATH that would occasionally take pictures of them. Last I heard (10 years back), they're holding up very well. It would be interesting to see how well the Redbirds hold up compared to those K cars.
Imagine a new generation of SCUBA divers 30 years from now who "discover" the Redbirds resting underwater. Wonder how they'd react?
--Mark
Here's my guess, at a press conference announcing the find:
"And here, at the front of this ancient relic, is an odd glass opening. Our scholars are completely baffled as to why this old transit car would have an opening in the front for passangers to look out. We are theorizing that it was to allow sunlight in so as the rest the internal lighting system, or it may have had some deep religious meaning. We will NOT confirm the rumor that we've discoverd proof of the mythical "railfan window" ...
Good Point Chris!
Now look for messages from those here on the board telling us to "get over it" because we like the Redbird and related cars and the soon-to-be-extinct Railfan window. "Progress is good, we should like the new cars" ...Phooey!
Don't have to look very far.
Get over it!
Progress is good, but you don't have to look like the new cars (close enough).
i love railfan windows too. if they give them away salaam doesn't get all 1000, i want at least 4 to install pants on and run on the Seattle LINK when it opens in 2006
The three R-26/28 cars with the R-22 drop sash windows will really throw them for a loop :-)
I wonder how'd the react to the circular r16/17 window ...
And a new home for sea life is not valuable? I'm far from an environmentalist, but I see much value in the idea. All they'd have to remove is the paint (which likely doesn't contain lead any longer) and all the mechanical componants. The fiberglass seats and such can remain as-is. As long as the asbestos in the cars can't become airborne, it's perfectly safe; soaking wet, it's safer still.
-Hank
Are they going to drop them in the same area where the PATH K cars are off the Jersey coast? There have been posts on this board for a long time about connecting up the IRT with the PATH, though I don't think this is what we've been talking about :-)
At least they will put to good use...Also, since they are disposing of them that way, they wouldn't be losing any 'revenue' by saving a few for 'historical' purposes'....
So much for "give a hoot, dont pollute.."
"...Never be a dirty bird..."
There's nothing wrong about using the redbirds as artifical reefs. It helps the ecosystem of the ocean, as long as all the hazardous marterials are removed. What would you rather see done to them? They're gonna be scrapped anyway. If it's not economical to recycle the parts into other materials, what would be better?
BTW, did you know the Sultan of Brunei, one of the richest people in the world, made his old Rolls-Royces into artifcal reefs?
there are already old Army M-60 tanks offshore as a reef, and the concret from the old west side highway is off rockaway too. and there have been many ships sunk as reefs over the years.
Off the Calif. coast there are large amounts of old trolley cars from the vast traction system that was from the P.E. it now is home to fish and other sea life.
Ted Kennedy tried to turn his car into an artificial reef years ago, but wasn't too successful.....
Rim Shot!!!!
Don't forget Mary Jo Kopechnie lost her life as a result. I remember that Chappaquiddick Island incident well.
For those not old enough to recall that sad day, it was rumored to go something like this:
Mary Jo Kopechnie & Senator Ted were in the good Senator's car. Mary turned to Ted and said, "What will we do if I really am pregnant?" to which Ted Kennedy replied,
"WE'LL CROSS THAT BRIDGE WHEN WE GET TO IT!!!".
The rest is history...........
Anyone remember the National Lampoon's comedy ad shortly afterward? A picture of a Volkswagon beetle floating in water and the caption read: "If Ted Kennedy was driving a Volkswagon, Mary Jo Kopecknie would be alive today". After alot of negative press about the ad the National Lampoon recalled the edition off the newsstands.
I still have a copy of that issue. $$$$ 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyone remember the National Lampoon's comedy ad shortly afterward? A picture of a Volkswagon beetle floating in water and the caption read: "If Ted Kennedy was driving a Volkswagon, Mary Jo Kopecknie would be alive today". After alot of negative press about the ad the National Lampoon recalled the edition off the newsstands.
Not to nitpick, but IIRC the ad read "If Ted Kennedy drove a Volkswagen, he'd be President today."
OK, its been a long time and the memory is the first to go.
>>>Not to nitpick, but IIRC the ad read "If Ted Kennedy drove a Volkswagen, he'd be President today." <<<
I went home and dug the issue out that is what it says.
Peace,
ANDEE
[What would you rather see done to them?]
Send the best cars to transit museums.
On a related note, there should be a museum/railroad in the New York area that runs regularly scheduled trips daily to let people ride on their old trains, not like the NYTM, where it's like 4 times a year.
I've been on two such railroads in Pennsylvania: New Hope & Ivyland in New Hope, PA, and the Strasburg in the town of the same name. The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is across PA 741 from the latter.
If it were to be located in the Bronx or Brooklyn, it could be dubbed the BMT: (Brooklyn/Bronx) Museum of Transit! :-)
So sad to hear. :-(
As a SCUBA diver and railfan I look foward to diving on the redbirds.
The only safty issues that should be done is the the removal of all door and windows to prevent anyone from becomeing traped inside.
I'd love to have a picture at the t/o possition in full scuba gear. I've never dovwe onthe PATh cars but I have on a Trolly sunk in a quarry in Pa its something different..
I did not get to see the article until today because the paper sold out early here in the country. A friend clipped the article for me.
WOW!!! A half page, and including a nice picture. I'll bet that picture would be great in color.
A copy is in the mail.
i don't understand this! why the hell put them at the bottom of the ocean for? thats gonna be a waste of good hunk of metal. i hope they change their minds and recycle the corroded ones and sell the ones that aren't corroded to other subway systems around the world that need trains to run in service. at the bottom of the ocean is a stupid idea!
The redbirds won't fit too many of the other sbway systems in the world. You fail to realize that subway cars are custom-made. Just as there are 2 different loading guages in NYC, there are many more elsewhere.
And who would want to buy a 40+ year-old used subway car that has body cancer?
There's no such thing as a "waste of a good hunk of metal". Once it's outlived it's usefulness, what would be done with it otherwise is being cut into razor blades, or used as an artificial reef. Many things have been used as such; the infamous 'Golden Venture' being the most recent, it was sunk off the Florida coast. Several PATH cars, a Sultan's Rolls Royce collection, army tanks, oil platforms, and even airplane fuselages have been made into reefs, which does a hell of a lot more for the environment than recycling the metal, which is a costly and polluting process.
-Hank
We are talking a hell of a lot of steel to sink here. I don't think hope they will not sink all 56,000 tons of it. A percentage will be sent to the Illonois Railway and other museums, the singles will probably replace existing pre-1990 work motors and failing rider car bodies. If the carbon can be mixed in smelting to make stainless steel, we will all benefit as we will have a turnover of car at least a decade later than now present. After these cars are disposed of, we may not have the costs associated with asbestos abatement and long term pollutants. I don't see a problem with some being sent to the bottom of the Atlantic, I just wonder what those in the steel industry would do to drive up the price of ferrous metals in the area.
Enjoyed going thru Subtalk on my visit to Denver, especially the Chicago stuff and the 6th/9th Ave. el. Hope I can tell a few stories on light rail here. Went thru some massive snowstorms Sept 22, a week after weather in the 90's. Want some back east?
Both sides seem farther apart than the two coasts. I read on CNN.com that one strike lasted 67 days. This one might not last that long but it could come close.
Hey salaam, you might want to consider saving those nickels & dimes and get yourself a set-o-wheels. At least a car never strikes. Although sometimes it quits.
hey ZMAN179 yourself !! I own a 1982 Chevrolet Caprice Station wagon!!
& you are wrong !! Private vehicles (cars) do strike !!! They need a lot of maintainence & do break down ( even new junks ) & forget about nickels & dimes because to fill a tank of GAS here you ned some real bucs ( Dollars ) nickels & dines in California just will not do !!
As for CNN I do not have cable TV it just costs too much!!
Finally I am sure the strike will last a long time a lot of folks will suffer even those who cannot go to medical clinis hospitals dentists employment to unemployment UI then to welfare & homelessnes !!!!
SEPTA went for 40 days or something like that.
There is some good News and Bad News.
Good News the R142A Is on Day 23 as of now and the 30 Days will end 10/1/00. Also 5 new trains will be going in service sometime early next Week. That gives you 60 New cars on the Pelham line from 7211-7270.
Bad News 60 Redbird Cars will be going Out Of Service on Stand by at Westchester Yard.
That is the Latest plan as of now and as always Subject to Change.
That's grrrrrrrrreat! what about the 2's?
Will the R 26/R28's from the #5 go into storage, and the R29's, R33's & R36"s from the #6 be transfered to the #5 temporarlly?
09/25/2000
[Will the R 26/R28's from the #5 go into storage, and the R29's, R33's & R36"s from the #6 be transfered to the #5 temporarlly?]
I would assume so. It would make sense to mothball the older Redbirds while running the newer ones. It seems the 9500 series mainline Redbird R-36's seem to be in the best physical shape. I guess the TA will run the better Redbirds until the R-160's replace the last of the LAHT steel subway cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
We are only talking a couple of trainsets here. 5 new trainsets will have 5 old train sets go into temporary storage. AS soon as there is enough 142A's on the property then lets talk about swapping units from the different yards/lines. Heck the A order has lesser cars anyway, if Bomb-bust-airs ever get the kinks out of the 142 order then we can talk swapping cars.
um, ur kinda out dated. bombardier worked out their kinks long ago and are in shipment as we type.
um, ur kinda out dated. bombardier worked out their kinks long ago and are in shipment as we type. theres two of them that have arrived at e. 180th and are sitting inside the sheads. i asked a bombardier worker when are the rest are coming and he told me since the train basically passed its thirty day test, that twenty sets (four at a time)will make it to the yards in two months. first four will make it during the first weeks of october. be on the lookout
I hadn't heard they went over the 30day, thought it just recyled last week.
no. they are running fine for everyday they were running i was there to catch it. no problems so far. 5 more days and it will show of itself of being a worthy machine.
Well I saw Bombardier R142s up to 6330 at 180th St. So far I've heard nothing about the first train (6301-6310) going out of service since the last time I saw it in service, which was Sept. 1st. So it must almost be near Day 30 at last. Oh, thank heaven.
I passed it this Saturday in the bronx around 3:30pm, it was heading southbound in service.
Oh Goody, hopefully the R36s can come back HOME to the 7 line. WE NEED CARS. To many singles sitting in the yard there having no where to go. Its the truth.
um, u mean the R-142 the R-142 passed its test already.
um, u mean the R-142 the R-142A passed its test already. correction
No they are on day 24 but the trains will come anyway.
If the R142's are in full service Will they have the color coding under the car number?
Also why doesnt the R142 have the metal
bumpers on the sides like the R44's did?
2 train: Black
6 Train: Yellow
5 Train: Green
Sure, we've all heard about the R142/R142A taking over the 2 and 6 lines, and until now ive just noticed that we're missing a line with R142's, which is the 5 line....What's goin on here?
The No.5 will be the last line to get the New Trains. The No2+6 have first picks.
Prompted by a previous, irrational post, I became curious as to who might be the most prolific Subtalk Poster. I must say that I was suprised by what I found. I took the 25 most familiar subtalkers and found that 13 of us have posted 20 or more messages (each) in the past week. (I was not #1)
Any guess as to who the top poster was?
Any guess as to who the top ten were?
Highest # of posts?
It must be me, my wife says that I am on here all of the time!
Go ahead Steve, tell me I am only 597th, and I will print the post and show it to her!
I would guess that salaamallah would be the winner of the most posts. In the last 2 days, he had posted about 15 times. Train dude, looked like he was in second, with about 14 posts in the last two days. I, myself found that I have posted 10 times in the last two days.
These results may be off by a few posts, so don't attack me if they're not correct. So who are the winners, and the losers???
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Salaam has been mercifully killfiled by me ever since Dave added that feature to Subtalk. I URGE everyone else who can't stand him to do the same thing.
Prolific SubTalkers? Why count the number of times someone has clicked on the Post Message button? Moving from the objective to purely subjective, why not consider who posts the most consistently thoughtful, incisive, well-reasoned, and profound messages and replies?
george foelschow wrote: "why not consider who posts the most consistently thoughtful, incisive, well-reasoned, and profound messages and replies?"
i think it goes without saying that if we use the criterion of thoughtful, incisive, well reasoned, and profound, that heypaul's posts come to mind immediately as being at the bottom of that list...
But you do come out #1 as the most honest!
heypaul: Not at the bottom, maybe close, but you have to admit there are two or three people on this site who are over the edge. Besides, you are entertaining and most of time we take you with a grain of salt because we are very carefully considering the source. But keep them coming because most of us love it.
"The inciseful use of exaggeration is a prime hallmark of the skilled rhetorician." That is a direct quote from my so far yet unpublished autobiography. I'll share a secret: the publisher of "The Collected Wisdom of Spiro Agnew" is desperate for new material. Think about the "heypaul chronicles". I can even pitch it to my industry contacts.
Moving from the objective to purely subjective, why not consider who posts the most consistently thoughtful, incisive, well-reasoned, and profound messages and replies?
Salami definitely would be in last place!
In the past 5,000:
211 Steve B-8AVEXP
192 Train Dude
173 Pigs of Royal Island
169 los angeles rail system (salaamallah)
165 Hank Eisenstein
154 Jersey Mike
149 chuchubob
144 Peter Rosa
141 zman179
141 Chris R16
101 SUBWAYSURF
98 Old Tom
97 bigedirtmanl
87 Henry R32 #3730
85 Anon_e_mouse
79 Larry Littlefield
78 #4 Sea Beach Fred
72 John
72 Doug aka BMTman
69 Jeff H.
69 Elias
62 heypaul
60 Wayne-MrSlantR40
Score! #6. And I don't even fight w/ Mr. LA Transit System or talk about Redbirds.
I dont think so !!my score is much lower ...
FYI I checked and 5000 posts ago was about Sept 4.
Hmmmm, middle of the pack only? I need to step up my game a bit...LOL
profligate has a nice ring to it... by definition it means to be wasteful... to squander... to fritter away...
as a prolific and often profligate subtalker, i must say that my profligacy here and in my personal life is a great source of sadness to me...
our gifts and talents in life should bring joy and contentment to others and ourselves... to fritter our time away is one of the great self-inflicted tragedies of our lives...
Its interesting that these 23 people posted 53% of the posts.
It's also interesting that you have responded 3 times to the same post :-)
Are you insinuating that I'm trying to take the lead somehow?
That's 4! (Only kidding!)
Dang, if I hadn't killfiled Salami I'd probably be in first place. Not that I'm complaining about my decision.
i dont think so !! ( you idiot )
THE LA STRIKE IS STILL ON !!
HEY mr stuipd BALONEY!! I have class I dont eat cold cuts like you..
09/24/2000
Okay Dave!
So much for the top 23, what about #24 on down ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If I hadn't reduced my frequency of visiting to every 3 days, I'd probably be a lot higher up!
Thanks Dave - I think! I only went back 1 week and i was a respectable #5. #1 stayed the same with Pigs 2nd, zman179 3rd and Chris R16 4th.
It was probably all those Mr. LA Transit System fights.
None of which the NOTORIOUS P.I.G. was involved with.
Whoa! I need to back way off. Must be all those R-10 posts.:-)
You guys seem to be patting yourselves on the back for making the top 23, I have a different opinion ...............
In the couple of years that I've been here I've looked forward to the substance in folks posts, e.g. Jersey Mike says he trys realy hard to start 15 new threads a day ... WHY if they are just yada yada ?
The second important thing that I've got out of SubTalk is a group of new friends ... not just acquaintances mind you, but guys & gails I now consider close friends ... so maybe I should temper my SUBSTANCE remark as this is a place for friends to talk to each other. I'm just saying that I think before I reply to every post I read. Sometimes I fool around (I have a touch of HPS), but I don't go out of my way to say something in reply to every thread that's started. I recently said to the BMT Man (off-line) that I hoped he didn't mind that I didn't reply to his name change. He's still just plain Doug to me.
And the third thing is that this has been such a great learning place for me. If you stay with it for a while you can't help but to become a subway-buff, so I continue to look forward to those GOOD QUESTIONS and don't mind if EYE already know the answer, because I sure there's someone else out there that doesn't.
As it turns out several on the top 23 DUE provide a lot of substance, but some of the other just take up realestate. I'll not point out who's who on my list, because this post isn't ment to start a rock throwing contest ... just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, I stopped posting useless new threads once I got back to school and had time to read stuff to reply to.
Great, glad to here it, so how is your education coming ....... on SubTalk ?
Are you a buff yet ?
Mr t__:^)
>>> I stopped posting useless new threads <<<
Mike;
The change has been noticed and appreciated. Your posts are now quite interesting and informative.
Tom
Yeah. I didn't think I'd figure in there. I'm new in these poarts, and don't post all that much
:)Andrew (MisterK)
Congrats on your silver medal dude!
I'm not surprised that I'm not up there in the Top 25, but not disappointed. Distractions at home (wife, son, phone, fatigue) and the office (work!) keep me from posting more often.
I try to post if:
-I've got a good story; i.e. a frustrating, amusing or bizarre experience earlier that day involving our beloved transit system.
-I just took a long transit-related expedition and wish to report my sharp, incisive observations- then wait for someone who lives or works in the area to correct me.
-I think I can actually answer someone's question!!
-I feel fit to add my two cents on a subject I think I might actually know something about, or correct what I feel is an inaccuracy.
-If I just engaged in a transit-related event well-publicized on this board. Gotta give my take on what happened.
I try to avoid petty, fruitless back-and-forth arguments- that what I've got family and co-workers for. I will admit that some of the exchanges among Sea Beach Fred, Brighton Bob, Pigs and Jersey Mike are far more amusing than any chat room or episode of THE REAL WORLD.
I participate in several other message boards and this is by far the most active- some go days or weeks without a new message. My wife is amazed to see the number of messages posted in the wee hours, which adds fuel to her contention that we have no lives.
BTW, according to the Archives, Anon e mouse posted the first message of 2000- nine seconds into it. Boy, Anon, can you type fast!
BTW, according to the Archives, Anon e mouse posted the first message of 2000- nine seconds into it. Boy, Anon, can you type fast!
Hey, I was ready and waiting... sitting at the office on Y2K duty all night as the manager in charge, gotta do something :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Remember when me and Spunky posted a message 1 second appart on the same thread?
like poster mr peter rosa with his diet of BALONEY & other cold cuts!
Peter, Larry & windy city John are my all time favorite debaters.
They disagree, but do it with style. It almost always makes of interesting & imformative reading.
Mr t__:^)
I am sorry sometimes i have to stand up for myself too often !!
it does make me very tired & weary ...
No you don't HAVE TO, you/we/I do it because we feel we have something of value to contibute that will be of interest to our friends & colleagues ... at least that should be the main reason.
BTW, I don't believe I responing to a Salmanella thread, oh I must be running a feaver or something ;-)
Mr t
Well Mr Baloney ( salmanella laced ) i hope your cold cuts tase good!!
myself i do not eat cold couts & luncheon meats it is bad for you
You should cook all of your meats well done unless they are spoiled or too old ..
Now wait a minute, how did I become Mr. Baloney ? Is there a leak in the muffler of that old car of yours or something ?
Mr t__:^)
LOL
Yea.. I am sorry but sometimes you have to stand up for yourself.
it sometimes gets off topic & nasty sometimes....LOL...
Don't acknowledge him. Apparently, he failed to understand that you were trying to extend an olive branch to him.
-Stef
Remember when me and Spunky posted a message 1 second appart on the same thread?
>>> Remember when me and Spunky posted a message 1 second appart on the same thread? <<<
Mike;
I think you just got the record for longest time between duplicate posts. :-)
Tom
[-I just took a long transit-related expedition and wish to report my sharp, incisive observations- then wait for someone who lives or works in the area to correct me.]
So you too have caught the HPS, I thought so ;-)
-I think I can actually answer someone's question!!
Now there's a real SubTalker for you. Sometimes we actually do know the answer, or at least we all agree that it is/should be the answer.
Keep up the good work.
Mr t__:^)
What's this HPS I've caught? Hunters Point Shuttle? Hippos Puff Slowly? Heavenly Pink Sky?
[What's this HPS I've caught? Hunters Point Shuttle? Hippos Puff Slowly? Heavenly Pink Sky?]
That's the thing about HeyPaul Syndrome, you don't realize for a long time that you have it, but as it gets more pronunced everyone else knows.
You start out trying to impress us with your wit, then you try to be funny ... but always keeping to transit funnyness, then you sneak in something serious in you funny comment. That keeps us off our guard because when you realy have HPS you have to re-read the post a couple of times, and then decide if it's funny, almost funny or serious.
As you can see I haven't been fully effected yet, because I still us caps.
Mr t__;0)
You took the words right out of my mouth.:-)
Once you stop using the shift key, then you've got it for sure.
That's the thing about HPS its not spread by body fluids or sneezing, although you may have caught it when you were here last year !
It may have spread all the way from Sheepshead Bay to Coney Island and be in the hot dogs there, or were you the one that had the Frogs Legs?
Mr t__:^)
LOL
i think a few subtalkers eat too many cold cuts ( luncheon meats )
like BALONEY & pork salimi cuts then imediately log on & post !!
it must make them drunk !!.....like mr rosa.
09/27/2000
[think a few subtalkers eat too many cold cuts ( luncheon meats )
like BALONEY & pork salimi cuts then imediately log on & post !!
it must make them drunk !!.....]
Cold cuts shouldn't make anyone drunk....unless beer is involved somehow. Maybe some of us SubTalkers should swear off cold cuts before posting and switch to White Castle hamburgers and Wendy's chili !! This should make for some interesting posts !!
Flamethrower "Newkirk"
sorry it was only for mr peter rosa who insists of mispelling my name & launching his silly little childish attacks etc...
once again i had to defend myself !!& I did not do anything to that
nut & what was so bad about it i caught it while trying to LAY OFF of subtalk!
I hardly ever make it on these boards anymore so I know I'm not one to have posted the most... but as for "most recognizable," am I on there? I think other top 25s would be
Jersey Mike
BMTMan
heypaul
Train Dude
Chris R16
Steve - 8BAXEP or whatever
4 Sea Beach Fred
Brighton exp Bob
Pigs of Royal island
David Pirmann - Website host
los angeles rail systme (salaamallah)
am i up there?
---Abe
Changing your handle likely hurt you as far as making the top 25.
lol it's all good...what were they anyway?
I HEARD FROM A FRIEND WHO HAS A FRIEND WHO HAS A FRIEND WHOSE SECOND COUSIN'S (ONCE REMOVED) FRIEND'S MILKMAN RECENTLY SPOKE TO heypaul WHO SAID THAT CAPITAL LETTERS ARE FOR FASCISTS AND NERDS. heypaul, IS THIS TRUE???
OR IS THE SHIFT BUTTON ON YOUR TEXAS INSTRUMENTS COMPUTER BUSTED?
P.S. I KNOW THAT YOU LOVE TO PLAY PONG ON YOUR RELIC......I MEAN COMPUTER. BUT YOU SHOULD UPGRADE TO A NEWER MODEL. I HEAR THAT SPACE INVADERS IS DA BOMB!
i personally like the look of text with all lower case letters... i think the occasional capital letter in normal writing calls attention to itself... i want all my words to be equally compelling...
in addition capital letters on the internet is akin to shouting... therefore my use of lower case letters reflects the quiet spoken, thoughtful, and humble person that i am...
Ahhhh, a grammatical socialist ....
This isn't a message board, its an insane aslyum! And its your fault! You do nothing to discourage them!
It's my fault? Gee thanks! If this is an insane asylum, then just call me el-nutzo.
Although I must say that heypaul is the A#1 king loonie.
Not to metion a distant relative of e.e. cummings. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi Dave,
I don't know if anyone has commented on this or not, but I just wanted to say thank you for the recent "panoramic" subway pics you've posted on the opening page; I think that I prefer it to the 4 small pics. -Nick
Thanks. It's actually random still. It will choose whether to do a 1 or 4, then choose the photos...
On my opening page, I noticed two of the four trains displayed were Sea Beaches, a B standard on the express tracks going nowhere, and a Triplex #4 train of yore parked at either Fort Hamilton Parkway or 8th Avenue. I have to say I was pleased to see that Dave.
How do you let a webpage generate a random outcome? My HTML knowledge is limited, but I'd be intersted to understand how it's done.
I believe that the web page is generated by a CGI script.
I've tried randomizing servers for the chat room applet, but I had problems with that. Randomizing text or images would work.
I don't have the code anymore, BTW.
That particular part is an Apache "Server-Side Include", which means the output of a script run on the server is included into the web page each time it is called up. So a small perl script chooses the images, the Apache server includes that into the index.html page.
-Dave
Do you use a tag for that?
That's used in Geocities to add the GeoBanner and/or the counter.
I'm sorry, I forgot to use my escape sequences!
Do you use a <!--something--> tag for that?
That's used in Geocities to add the GeoBanner and/or the counter.
Yup, that's how server-side includes work. An example: <!--#include virtual="/cgi/randomimage.pl" --> would be replaced with the contents of /cgi/randomimage.pl - if the server's configured so that /cgi/randomimage.pl is a CGI, it gets executed and its output is used.
Mark
I can include anything in there? Even if it's not a script? Like if I want to save space and code a header (for example) once, and then include it in every page?
Yes, with a stock Apache installation. It doesn't mean that whoever provides your web hosting couldn't have modified it to only serve their purposes. You can also use other things like conditional statements. See http://www.apache.org/docs/mod/mod_include.html for more details, and ignore the sections intended for server administrators.
Mark
Can I have a copy of the script that does that?
I want to use it to randomize user names (not nicknames, different) for the Java chat client.
Does anyone know what has happened to Scott Moore? Recently I noticed he took off his "last updated" note, since his page has not changed since January. Is Scott having more computer problems, or has he been too busy (which I certainly understand)? So far, only Jonathan Belcher's car roster stays updated. -Nick
Last I heard, Scott was involved in a new business, and had a new baby
at home... both of which had priority over the Web site!
reporting live...from Monterrey, MEX... (hoo-boy it's hot here)
Yep, that will definitely keep Scott busy! I'm glad things are good for him; I thought maybe his computer crashed again. Hope you can keep cool in Mex., Todd :) -Nick
We had a cold front pass by Monterrey Sunday night. The first rain in four months, I'm told. Yesterday was cloudy and cool. Today is sunny, mild, and dry -- wonderful!
I have not had a chance to ride the Metro, nor do I think I will. Unfortunately it is nowhere near my hotel nor the companies I am visiting. We did drive under the elevated today, and I saw one train go by. It was a two-car train of articulated vehicles, with pantograph power collectors. The elevated construction was modern, with single concrete posts supporting the two-track roadbed. The posts are in the middle of a four lane road. The el does not "enclose" the street as the els do in NYC. The street is relatively bright and open.
The bus system here appears to be very unorganized, with many style buses (nearly all old looking - closer to school buses than transit, with manual transmissions :-)
And that's your International...
There was a recent update to the site...
Scott took out "Where is it?" and the "Transit News" features and deleted the date of the most recent update.
IIRC Johnathan told me that Scott either bought or is managing a bowling alley, and it is taking up most of his waking hours. It's too bad, since that site had the potential to be almost as good as this one!
Gerry
Rumor has it that the 2001 subway map is going to be loaded with changes. Any thing to that? I'm 3000 miles away and will make the changes on my 2000 map. With the south side of the Manny B possibly opening and the Q scheduled to go to Continental Ave, and the G stopped in its tracks at Court Square, the changes seem possible. But I have heard there are going to be a lot more than that. Anyone in the know? Would like to hear. Maybe as a labor of love project, I will make my own copy of the map after making the changes on the one I have.
Or you can send a self-addressed stamped envelope (inner envelope with 55 cent stamp) to the MTA to the address listed somewhere on the map.
I'll draw my own version of the map, thank you. I said it was a labor of love. I can always get a map when I come to New York, which I hope to do many times after I retire next June.
Hey Fred, I will send you one for free when I go back next month. Did you see a E-F-or G T Shirt when you were there? By the way has anyone seen a T shirt with the system map on it. I have one from DC, London, Boston and Chicago, and a 25 year old one from NY, which I need to replace.
I saw an F shirt. I am not sure about the G, however. I did tell my colleagues on this site that I would make changes on my old map, then redraw one on my own as a labor of love. I got some smart-ass remark from Pigs about sending in 55cents, but that's just Pigs being Pigs. However, if you send me one, Pigs will be satisfied, too. How do you like your shirt? Does it fit ok?
Hey! That wasn't a smart ass remark. Not all people know about the ability to send away for a map. I thought you were redrawing the map because you had no way of getting a new one.
Then I stand corrected. BTW, I have always loved to draw maps, and I have taken current maps and redrawn then to specification of the 1940's, adding old BMT lines that no longer exist. That's a very enjoyable experience for me and it brings back some pleasant memories. No I don't think you're a smart ass, but just once in a while you do come out a little caustic. But I take no offense. I like reading your pieces.
Fred,
You might know me, I made 70+ subway maps on this site including historial maps. I like to see your map and I'm sure others would like to see it as well, will you post it here or your site? can you file attach one to me?
Thanks,
Mike the Mailman in Denver
adler@nycsubway.org
It's pretty sloppy. I'm going to have to put together a new neat one. Then if I have confidence in myself, I'll try to send it out.
Fred, it looks like the Q, or rather Qs, will not be going to Queens at all starting sometime in 2001, but rather to your favorite terminal, 57th St.-7th Av. Don't worry, it looks like your Sea Beach will still be around, slowly snaking its way through the Cortlandt St.-City Hall turns.
Q: Snaking is right. When they finally open up the south side of the Manny B the Sea Beach has dibs on that route by previous experience. If not, there is no justice. It is ridiculous to send two locals snaking through lower Manhattan. That's what the R's intended for, not the N. The Sea Beach was always meant to be the Broadway Express, through Canal Street, then over the bridge into Pacific Street. I'm still holding out hope Q. And for crying out loud I hope the TA sends some other train to Astoria and let's mine stop at 57th Street or Times Square as its terminal site. I'd better quit here or my Brighton Beach Bob buddy will accuse me for the upteenth time of living in the past.
Hey Fred,
I've just got to ask this.
How did your Email address become the title of a thread?
Karl: Beats the hell out of me. I've been trying to figure that out myself.
You probably just put the e-mail in the wrong box.
Fred, I would be all for opening both sides of the bridge and restoring your Sea Beach to the south side and Broadway express, along with the Q, which, if it was up to me, would go to Queens too, express all the way out to Jamaica. And I agree the tunnel is for the R, the traditionally slowest train in the system. Actually, I should have written "screeching" rather than "snaking" through the horrible Cortlandt St.-City Hall turns. By the way, Brighton Exp. Bob might not be the only one who would accuse you of living in the past.
--Harry ("Q Brightliner")
Baltimore MTA announced in a Sept 20 post on
its website that the BWI airport light rail stop was to reopen last week after inauguration of new safety standards, apparently aimed at reducing the chances of operator-caused safety problems.
And the MTA started using a feature that the cars have been equipped with since delivery and never fully activated. The Magnetic trip stops that have been installed at BWI, Penn Station and Hunt Valley. The trips were installed at Hunt Valley when the track was laid, but were never installed anywhere else and the feature was deactiviated when the cars started detecting it. Now that the trips are installed, the car equipment has been activiated.
Also installed at BWI and Penn are new bumpers that are designed NOT to break loose and lift the car up, which the NTSB had ordered installed after the February crash.
The MTA also announced new, tighter drug rules (one strike and you're OUT), but the Maryland General Assembly is prepared to make more changes in the next session, possibly tightening the rules even more.
Does this train travel from BWI to Baltimore's Penn Sta.? I remember a number of years back needing to take a bus from BWI to an Amtrak station a few miles away.
Yes. Here is a sample timetable.
>The MTA also announced new, tighter drug rules (one strike and you're
>OUT), but the Maryland General Assembly is prepared to make more
>changes in the next session, possibly tightening the rules even more.
0 strikes and you're out?
Drug testing should be conducted to any operator of any transit of people.
It's absolutely disgraceful that they've had two drug-related crashes within a year, but I, somewhat irreverently, have that immortal Grateful Dead line on the tip of my tongue --
Drivin' that train
High on cocaine
--"Casey Jones," Grateful Dead
Chris
>>> The MTA also announced new, tighter drug rules (one strike and you're OUT), but the Maryland General Assembly is prepared to make more changes in the next session, possibly tightening the rules even more <<<
How do you tighten up more than one strike and you're out? Perhaps dismiss a random 5% who test clean? :-)
Tom
What we suspect is that the General Assembly will require mandatory drug testing every X months for bus/rail operators in Maryland. Right now the Union Contract requires treatment, but after the 2 BWI bang-bangs the Union has backed off quite a bit. The testing is still random, but the pols will speak in January.
Greetings from Monterrey, MEX. It's hot here, but there's a great Metro system waiting to be ridden. But that's another program.
The flight down was long enough for me to read the WHOLE Sunday NY Times, and there is an interesting article on page 9 of the Real Estate Section. It's entitled Decision Nears on Much-Debated Mall at Oyster Bay. Despite the title, the map provided shows it to be at the location of the former LIRR Landia station, just north of the LIE at the intersection of Robbins Lane near the Woodbury/Syosset line. The site is the abandoned Cerro Wire and Cable Company Plant.
The article says this will be a HUGE mall, with high-end stores (Neiman Marcus, etc.). Of interest is that opponents site the proximity of the LIRR grade crossing; also the MTA is thinking about opposing the use of this site (it has powers of condemnation according to the article), for "the possible site of a new rail storage yard that will be needed to store trains overnight as the Long Island Railroad increases service."
Here’s the Times article that Todd referred to. The map is not online.
What a tough choice for all those Huntington area residents. An LIRR rail yard, or a new, upscale store for them to show off their new Urban Assault Vehicles. I think someone mentioned in some recent Times article on it, that they'd rather have an old age home or something like that there instead.
Hey, Marriot wants to build one in Roslyn, Roslyn doesn't want it. Put it on the old Cerro wire site instead. Problem solved. Besides, they'll have to deal with all the elderly drivers, not me.
I've been hit twice by elderly drivers on my bike, and once in the station wagon this summer :(
Well, actually, the Landia station is still there, according to the LIRR's phone info system.....
09/25/2000
Are there any remnants of the old Landia station ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Partially restored Lehigh Valley Transit #801 was delivered to the Electric City Trolley Station & Museum in Scranton on Friday. Story in Sunday’s Allentown Morning Call .
Were you at ARM2000? I looked over the car shortly after it
had been set down on its shop trucks on Saturday.
No, I wasn't at ARM2000. On Sat I was in North Jersey marvelling at the Paulin's Kill viaduct of the Lackawanna Cutoff.
Bob
Too bad I missed it by two days. Spent most of Wednesday at said Trolley museum, enriching their gift shop's coffers with my hard-earned dollars.
For those that haven't been there, Electric City Trolley, which is just across a parking lot from the wonderful Steamtown, is a fairly new museum, in existance for about a year. They have some great hands-on displays, for the kiddies of all ages, plus some great restorations. They hope to be running by Spring if all goes well. And the run will go out about 6 or 7 miles to the Montage mountains and to the steel furnaces. Should be neat on some of these old beauties.
I was greatly impressed by both museums; it had been quite a few years since I saw Steamtown. I place it high on the list of train museums, much like that of Sacramento's.
A side trip to COLTS found brand new Gillig buses about to enter service. The folks there were super: posing some new equipment for us and showing two recently found trolley "relics" that will soon be restoration bound. Always good to hear news like that.
Joe Caronetti
Agree with Joe, i.e. Steamtown USA is a great place, incl. the 26 mile steam train ride to Moscow (13 miles each way).
Two things seem to be holding up the trolley operation: Gov. red tape (approvals & NIMBYs) and a bridge at Stafford Ave. that has to be re-installed. The State took it out & promised to put it back if rail use retrurned. The 6 mile trolley/interurban ride should be a nice one, especially for the Liberty Bell that can realy move.
BTW, Joe, hope you stayed overnight in the Lackawanna Station hotel, I did, it added to a marvelous 3 day week-end (also took in a could of AA ball games there).
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I'll need to remember to try to stay at the hotel you mentioned. Perhaps when the whole thing is up and running.
Still can't get over the gift shops in these places!
Joe
Thanks for the information about the new trolley museum. Perhaps this will be among the trolley museums that work. Your kind of informational posting is most helpful.
The one thing I have heard is that operation at the Electric City Trolley Museum is on hold due to problems with the FRA. Since Steamtown's tracks connect to the national railroad system (yes, they can interchange) and the trolley line will use some joint trackage, the FRA is involved.
Hopefully, there will be more up-to-date news coming out of ARM2000.
As to dealing with the FRA, ask any of the museums or the tourist lines who have had to deal with them about the pain.
The official word from Scranton was that Electric City's application
for a waiver was in process and, after the usual red tape delays
and hearings, it was expected (by them) to be granted by spring 2001.
Let us hope. The FRA has been in a "kinder and gentler" mode for the last 8 years. What may happen in 2001 is, of course, dependant on who's in the White House after the November elections.
As to "FRA Pain", ask the folks in Fort Collins about life in the streetcar field after the FRA decides they have jurisdiction. It wasn't cheap.
I was at ARM 2000. On Saturday afternoon, I was sitting in front of Scranton Birney 506 listening to Howard Cox, Ed Blossom, Ed Miller (and another gentleman who I forget the name of) reminisce about the trolley systems of the Anthracite area of PA, meanwhile watching through the large picture windows the lowering of 801 onto its trucks.
The October National Geographic has a paragraph on an unnumbered page near the beginning of the issue that touts historical railroad maps viewable from their website. When I reached their site I digressed before following their instructions for finding the maps when I noticed, under the heading “related sites” the category “New York City Subway Historical Maps”. Naturally I clicked on it and arrived at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/index.html. Perhaps this link from National Geographic has been pointed out previously on SubTalk, but I don't remember it.
Cool, thanks for pointing it out; it's our second link from National Geographic. here's the first -- it's been there so long they have it pointing to our old URL..
-Dave
Visited the picket sites especially at the long beach BLUE LINE yards
met my favorite operator joined them for one hour in support ..
Now the media is blocked out in the HILTON hotel in Pasadena..
Mna are the transit dependent suffering in so many ways too long to post !!!
Visited the picket sites especially at the long beach BLUE LINE yards
met my favorite operator joined them for one hour in support ..
Now the media is blocked out in the HILTON hotel in Pasadena..
Man are the transit dependent suffering in so many ways too long to post !!!
In the thread below about the Redbirds "joining the Titanic", one of
the posts mentions about former TA president, David Gunn. If I
remember correctly, SEPTA had a president with the name "Gunn" back
in the early or mid 1980's. Would this be the same David Gunn? Did he
become NYCTA's president right after leaving SEPTA? What years did he
serve as SEPTA's president?
Thanks,
SubwayRider (Timothy)
The David Gunn of SEPTA and NYCTA are one and the same. Someone else will tell us the dates.
He also headed Washington DC (WMATA) and Toronto (TTC).
--Mark
David Gunn was SEPTA's GM in the mid to late 80's (I'm not positive about the dates). He came from MBTA in Boston in about '80 and left in '87, going to NYCT. One of the legends of the Redbirds was that he had someone come to Phila to get a bucket of the red paint used on the old Broad St subway cars to repaint the then green and white cars which became the Redbirds.
If he left SEPTA in 1987 then he was running two agencies at once. He came to NYCT(A) in February 1984 and left in February 1990.
David
As I noted, I wasn't sure. Thanks for the correction.
yes he was the GM now boss of Toranto tran.auth
A websearch on AltaVista yielded an announcement in the Coupler , a publication of the Toronto Transit Commission, on the occaision of Gunn’s retirement from the TTC in 1995 . It mentions that he previously led transit systems in Washington, D.C., New York and Philadelphia.
A search of TTC indicates that Gunn retired again from the position of Chief General Manager in 1999.
BTW, other David Gunns found by the search include a (music) composer and a murdered abortion doctor.
On the main page of nycsubway.org, there is a pic of a Redbird rounding a curve. Every time I look at it, I wonder what line and location of the pic. Can anybody help me?
3Train#2068Mike
Yhe only shot I see of a Redbird appears to be at East 180th Street, but it's so dark I can't tell if it's on a curve or just sitting in the yard, with the photo being taken from the station platforms in the afternoon (i.e. INTO the sun)
Well remember the images there are random so when someone goes to look at it, it might not be there. If you see it again, do a right-click and view image, so you can get the actual url of the image, then I can look at it and tell you where it is... all of the banner images are clips from images elsewhere on the site.
-Dave
Upon further investigation... the only one of the 100x100 thumbnails that looks like a redbird on a curve is this one...
And that is facing north from the northbound platform at East Tremont Avenue (2/5).
Some 4-wides are:
http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/banner4/banner401.jpg
at the Smith-9 station
http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/banner4/banner402.jpg
at the Ditmas Avenue station. The train is actually passing over a switch, but where the image cuts out does have that rounding curve effect
Isn't it strange that the only 4-wide banners of redbirds rounding curves are all on the B division?
Here's another I like
and this image is my own.
It is the first pic, that is the one. So its on IND trackage, thats why I couldnt recognize it. Thanks.
3TM
Ah, yes, the R-33s as delivered. Reminds me of the string of those cars I saw from the Cross Bronx Expressway on Sunday morning, June 4, 1967.
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORąS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectorąs MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman.
To: Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
According to one of my scheduling source:
The (W) train will run from Coney Island via West End Local, Manhattan Bridge South aka H Tracks, Broadway Express, Astoria Local.
This is the finalized route for this train, Schedules are being made up as we speak!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
09/24/2000
A revival of the old (T) West End Express I presume ?
Will it run express or local on 4th Avenue ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It is replacing the (B) so it will be a 4th Avenue Express!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The 'W' train was 'finalized' at the August 1 meeting of the committee for the Manhattan Bridge Flip Service & 63rd St. service plans. The W was chosen to distinguish the southern B route from the northern B route. At present, the plan calls for 9 TPH during peak periods.
Why are the using W, why not use the old T, and if it is going to Astoria, where will the N Terminate? Also what about Brighton Service, wherew there be 2 Ds, or just the Q and no Brighton Exp Service?
The letter "W", from what I understand, is already on the rollsigns. The letter "T" is not.
The N will continue to terminate at Ditmars Blvd. The W will suplement it, as the southern B did back in the mid 1980's. I believe this means one of them will be running the peak direction Astoria express track.
From what I've heard, there will still be both local and express Brighton service. But both will be labeled "Q". Possibly the express will be a diamond "Q".
:)Andrew
(Q)-Brighton Local
/\
|Q|
\/-Brighton Express
Can't say anything about the other things.
Use gold, not yellow.
Like this: <Q>
Or a black background: <Q>
Sorry. How do you get a black background like that?
I started with <TABLE><TR><TD BGCOLOR=black>
And ended with </TD></TR></TABLE>
Look at the source.
Okay here is the map from the 80's when the last flip was performed. It is about 260k
Does this bring back memories !
09/25/2000
[The letter "W", from what I understand, is already on the rollsigns. The letter "T" is not.]
(T) is already on the GOH R-32 rollsign. Just a (T) in a white circle with no other imformation. Don't know if (T) is on the front R-46 or R-68 signs. (T) can be used on the side R-46 LCD sign.
Bill "Newkirk"
It seems to me that the fact that T is not currently on roll signs of most models should not be an important factor. How much would it cost to have new rollsigns put in, anyhow?
Who needs new signs? Removeable decals can be placed on the rollsigns, like the ones used on the 2/5 when the Lennox Ave rehab reroutes were in effect.
Not in the front, where the light has to pass through.
I'm guessing the W will run to Astoria during rush hours only, or will it be all times? During the last flip, B ran to Ditmars during rush hours (and from what I remember it didn't go express peak direction), to Queensboro Plaza middays, and 57/7 during weekends. Is that the W plan or is it just straight to Ditmars all the time?
=)
As I stated last week, the idea of putting the West End (W) route thru the tunnel and not the bridge would never see the light of day.
BTW, how can ANY plan even be considered as final when the fate of the R143 is yet to be determined, like when they will start showing up? As Train Dude so eloquently states, nobody has the "final" plan, because none can even be made yet.
I can say the (W) is done with planning because this time instead of going to car equipment for the info, I went straight to the real source, planning and scheduling, there is already a hard copy of a (W) schedule but of course like everything in life the bugs have to be worked out.
As for the R143s, those are going to be strickly eastern division cars, as per the CBTC system on the, the (L) is slated for them and the (M) will see the surplus (The surplus part can definatly change up, but the L is definately going to be a all R143 line).
Trevor Logan
The arrival of the R143 will almost certainly affect whatever bridge flip plan, even if all run on the L. A fleet difference of +212 cars or -212 cars will affect service anywhere.
Any "official" scheduling you may have seen for the W is merely a scrap of paper. With all the uncertainties, NOBODY, even Virgil Conway himself, can suggest a plan that's "certain".
"Any "official" scheduling you may have seen for the W is merely a scrap of paper. "
Absolutely correct, Chris. As recently as last Thursday, NO PLAN HAS BEEN FINALIZED. When the plan is 'finalized' it will be forwarded to the office of Gov't. Relations where local politicians, local planning boards & political groups will have their say. Only after they've had their say on the plan. will the MTA decide on a final plan. If anyone thingks that they have the final word yet, they are deluding themself.
Now that you mentioned them, can anyone tell me what the R143s will look like? The reason I ask is because I don't trust the mock-up that was on display at 207th St Yard, considering that the R142s look nothing like the mock-up displayed at TA headquarters (the first and only time I've ever been there).
it will look like the NTTT that runs on the c line however it will be altered. one question though baffles me. who's the manufacturer? i've been hearing that bombardier was supposed to make the order but i'm also hearing that the mta gave the order to kawasaki are both making them or is only making em? let me know.
terrence benjamin
I heard it here that all 216 R143 cars are coming from Kawasaki. Since they will look like the R110B (the NTTT), except they will be 60 feet long, not 67 like the 110B, will they have roll signs in the left front cab window or will they have an LED screen over the storm door?
Correct, but it's 212 cars, not 216. Don't know about the front sign, but if I find out I'll post.
David
If they're going with single color on the IRT, (whose red and green are available in LED's at a cheap price) then there's no reason they can't do that on the 143's. (The reason the 110B had a rollsign was presumably because blue LED's didn't exist then. They exist now but cost more . They were reconsidering the LED's at one time (because of visibility concerns), but the red (and orange on a few test bus signs) now is bright enough to be visible outside.
I personally would like to see red LEDs on the R143s since they decided to go with them on the R142s. It's only right. The red LEDs should be bright enough to see outside. I had no trouble spotting them on the R142 on the 2 train as it entered Burke Av.
but wasn't there an order for 660?
No, but there will be...660 or more. It's designated R-160, but that's about as far as the design has gotten.
David
Good lord! Sounds like (T) is pretty much a dead horse as we speak!
Inconceivable act of sacrilege is all I can say!
I wonder what (T) is now reserved for, and don't tell me it may confuse (T) with the MBTA.....Please no jabbing at Bostonians here :)
Nick
Chances are no one except those of us who are old enough to remember the T will care, although I personally would love to see it resurrected. Oh well.....
I suppose that once they reversed the northern terminals of the (B) and (C), it marked the end of civilization (as we know it). But I certainly agree that it should have been the (T). By the way, do any of the R32 or later rollsigns even have a "T" in any color?
Actually, civilization (AWKI) came to end many years ago when they opened a McDonald's on the Champs Elysees in Paris!
Bob Sklar
IIRC, the R-32s and R-38s have T signs on their route curtains; however, they're black and white. Of course, the front pixel signs will display a letter T. The R-44s and R-46s have T sign and terminal combinations on their electronic signs; not sure about their front end signs.
I remember seeing T trains of R-32s on a Saturday or two in the fall of 1967. Just missed one once at Union Square; it was pulling out as we reached the platform.
So what about assigning R32s and R38s on a new T train and run it down the Brighton Line?
The T still belongs on the West End, in my book. Just my opinion.
09/25/2000
[). By the way, do any of the R32 or later rollsigns even have a "T" in any color? ]
The original R-32 rollsigns of course featured the white (T) on black background. The 1968 upgrade where the new color route signs which replaced the front destination rollsign featured a blue background with white (TT), but no (T) on the color signs. The R-16 and R-38 front sign conversions featured the same.
Bill "Newkirk"
In the r16, the TT signs were a reddish color, similar to the AA and 4.
09/26/2000
[In the r16, the TT signs were a reddish color, similar to the AA and 4.]
Sorry to correct you Chris, but I am looking at my front route sign from a scrapped 6300 series R-16 and it is BLUE ! Look at the 1967 TA subway map and it also shows up blue on the strip map.
Bill "Newkirk"
And I swear it was red. Perhaps my memory fails me
09/27/2000
[And I swear it was red. Perhaps my memory fails me ]
Maybe it was your rose colored glasses ?
Trust me, even the side R-16 color sign has a blue background, the same as the (A) used at that time.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, some R-16s were painted red before the silver-and-blue scheme took hold.
One question about the 1968 rollsigns. Were similar colored rollsigns put on the IRT cars. On this site, I've only seen one picture of an IRT car with a 1968-style roll sign, an R17 at Flatbush Avenue on the 4 train. Did the MTA purposely neglect to replace the old black-and-white IRT signs or is it just by accident that there aren't more pictures of IRT cars with 1968 color signs?
I get the impression the IRT was passed over in terms of multicolored roller curtains. None of the IRT trains I rode on ever had them. That was one thing I liked - having route and destination signs up front. As for B division equipment, only the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s got multicolored bulkhead signs, and of those three classes, only the R-16s got multicolored side route curtains.
I thought the R-16"s had the multicolored side signs when they were brand new!
No, the R-16s had the same R-1/9 style side route signs, the only difference being number markings instead of letters. Gene Sansone's book has a full side view of an R-16 with "14/Broadway-Brooklyn Local" showing on its side curtain, and I can vaguely remember seeing "15/Jamaica Local" on the side curtains of the train we took over the Williamsburg Bridge 33 years ago last Saturday.
The R-16s needed new route curtains anyway, since all remaining BMT number markings were officially dropped when the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Some of the R-16 side signs did light up in green though, didn't they?
09/27/2000
[Some of the R-16 side signs did light up in green though, didn't they?]
The north and south destination signs would. The side route sign didn't.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R16's had flourescently-lit north/south destination side signs. I remember them clearly. They were usually non-functional when I rode the R16's, or illuminated the wrong destination. IIRC, all the cars from the R16 to R38 lit up like that pre GOH.
09/27/2000
Those green flourescent lights made the letters and numbers stand out. The white flourescent tubes used in later years didn't have the same effect. Also the MTA style signage that used smaller compressed letters was a disappointment.
Bill "Newkirk"
I really liked the original R-32 side destination curtains. The ultimate sight was seeing "Coney Island" backlit in green. And I still remember to this day the green backlit "57th St." signs on those shiny new Brightliners I rode for the first time in July of 1965.
I did too, I would add especially with the "Brighton Beach" lit and the red "EXP" lit at the ends of the train. Nicest photo of equipment on this site? #3359 having ridden off into the sunset at Brighton Beach in October 1964.
Yep, that's where the R-32s made their debut. I think a more appropriate photo would have been a train of those cars taken at sunrise, signifying the dawn of a brilliant career for some of the best subway cars ever built.
When they first appeared on the D in late 1967, I immediately noticed the round letter D on their route curtains in contrast to the angular, almost O-like letter D on the R-1/9 route curtains. It certainly didn't hinder their performance along CPW. They zoomed along effortlessly.
Perhaps you'll see something like that again, if they rebuild the cars again, and fit the new style LCD, like in the 142's, in the old sign boxes.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the R-44/46-style signs applied to other rolling stock, or some variation thereof.
They might have put them in the front bulkhead signs on some IRT cars but they never replaced the side rollsigns like they did to the R16, R32 and R38.
wayne
Must have only been a few because all the IRT cars I rode on as a kid had the old black-and-white signs up front. A few had the then-new 1979 signs in the front.
First time I saw one was on a R36 ML car on the #6 sometime around 1973. Gold ("N" color) circle with a WHITE numeral. Very few cars had these. I wonder if it wasn't a test printing run.
wayne
I distinctly remember seeing SOME of the 1970's colors on IRT side signs. They were usually on a white square background, like the old signs attached near the edges of platforms. The writing was white on a black background, though. I a lot of the on R17's running on the #3 in 1986.
I saw one such side route sign on a 3 train sometime in 1979, right about the time the color code was simplified to what it is now. This particular sign featured a light blue background, the initial color designation for the 3.
That's exactly what I saw. I got to play with one, and they had all the old IRT colors, but no blue #8.
How often were trains actually run signed up as the T? Didn't Standards and Triplex cars rule this line from 1960-67?
09/25/2000
[How often were trains actually run signed up as the T? Didn't Standards and Triplex cars rule this line from 1960-67?]
The "Standards" ruled the West End until the early 60's to about 1964. The D-Types from the Sea Beach Line replaced the Standards and finished out their careers until 1965. The new R-32's infiltrated the Sea Beach and Brighton thus sending the rebuilt Standards to the Eastern Division.
Bill "Newkirk"
The West End received R32s no later than 1965. With the introduction of the R32s, the T and TT symbols appeared. From September 1965 to November 1967, the T and the TT had exclusively R32s (at least, that's all I saw and I saw quite a few). The T made it to Nov. 1967, the TT through 1968, when it and the NX made their last appearances.
When the R-27s and R-30 had arrived in sufficient numbers, they were able to provide all weekend Southern Division service, so the T and TT markings were actually used prior to 1965. The R-27/30s kept the old Southern Division titles on their route signs, so the T marking included a "B'wy-West End" subscript on the bulkheads and "T/Broadway-West End Express" on the side signs. The R-32s omitted the old titles and had only "Broadway" as a subscript for the T. The T trains I saw in 1967 had "T-Broadway Express" on their side signs. The TT marking on the R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s simply had "West End" as a subscript and side route marking, since it terminated at Chambers St.
We rode on a TT once in July of 1965 along the West End line, getting off at 71st St. I can't remember for sure what cars were in the consist, but if all TT service was provided by R-32s, then that's what we rode on. I know it wasn't a train of Triplexes; little did I know that they were in their final week of service during our visit.
This probably shows ignorance, but why not just run the N express up Broadway [via Bridge] to Astoria?
Because the N takes a different route in Brooklyn (Sea Beach) than the B or the forthcomming W (West End).
:)Andrew
Because the Q will run express on Broadway.
Does this mean that Astoria will have BOTH 'N' and 'W' service? If so, does this further mean that Astoria will see a net gain in service resulting from 2 lines serving it? (Please, please, please!!) Also, I gather that the 'W' symbol will be yellow circle with black letter 'W', since the Manhattan "trunk" will be Broadway BMT, same as current 'N' and 'R' -- or will it be a yellow diamond?
It was only printed as a yellow diamond.
Yes, rush hour service will consist of 2 lines (N and W). I'd assume the W would terminate at Queensboro Plaza in between.
I DOUBT they'd run the W as an express down the Astoria line's middle track. They never did this when the B ran there in 1986-88.
If the 'W' terminates at QBP, to turn it around, will it simply reverse itself out of QBP station and use the diamond crossover just outside the 60th St. tunnel portal to right-rail back through the tunnel? That should make for some very interesting and confusing route-signs on the upper level of the BMT side of QBP!:
N to Ditmars Blvd. All Times
W to Ditmars Blvd. Rush Hours
W to Coney Island All Other Times via Broadway Express
The lower level would read:
N to Coney Island All Times via Broadway Local
W to Coney Island Rush Hours via Broadway Express
Not at all. The W could actually continue out of the station and proceed to Beebe Av middle (next station after QBP), reverse, and head down to the lower level. Turning the equipment in the station at QBP isn't worth the hassle of delays and confusion.
-Stef
Does the T/O grab his controller and walk backwards through the train to the other end, while it sits on the middle track at 39th Ave., for the trip back to QBP? This seems like a lot of trouble to save 6 stops. It would make more sense to finish the run to Ditmars and turn around there like normal.
No. The "southbound" motorman got on an arriving northbound B and remained on until the train moved up the center track until it stopped inside the Beebe Ave. station. He then moved the train "back" to QBP to go into service.
If I recall correctly, the T/O of the northbound B train to QBP in the 80s would have pulled into 39th Av, but would not take it back to the station. The Coney Island Bound T/O would have boarded on the south end at QBP and take it south from 39th Av.
As for going to Ditmars Blvd, what the advantages are, I can't be sure where you're prone to get more delays, Astoria or QBP?
-Stef
There won't be any turning of trains at QBP unless there is a major delay. Crews will all report and leave from Ditmars, both N and W.
If the current plan becomes the final one, the W will run 9 TPH while the N will run 6 TPH during peak hours. That's 15 TPH or 1 train every 4 minutes.
The following article in the New York Times says that good old political pressure is causing the TA to drop plans to have the 2 and 5 switch at 180th street Click here
Have a nice day !!
Dave,
I e-mailed you a question in regards to the R142A a week ago, but received no response. Were you the T/O of the R142A #6 back on the 16th?
Thanks!
No but the train was 2 behind me.
Anyone want to hazard a guess to which Redbirds will win the "Survivor" Contest?
I bet that the winners will either be a few of the R33's on the #2 (some of them are in pretty decent condition, at least the 9000 and 9100 cars) and obviously some of the R36's on the #6/#7.
Nick
The R-26s and R-28s will no doubt be the first ones to go. One of them would certainly qualify as being the rustiest Redbird.
Does anyone know what is going on with the 4461 being converted into R40Slant 4260?
I have not heard news of this operation for a while. Has this project been abandoned?
The way I see is, if this project is successful, then the next probably candidate would be to convert one of the mothballed R62s (1435, 1436 or 1439) to an R62A, which will revive 1909. This could be a toughie here.
Nick
[The way I see is, if this project is successful, then the next probably candidate would be to convert one of the mothballed R62s (1435, 1436 or 1439) to an R62A, which will revive 1909.]
Strange thing. I was on a train of R62 cars on the 4 line on Friday. The strange thing is that the lead car ends with an 8. The car's number? 1438. The next four cars are 1434-1433-1432-1431. What happened to 1437? In this thread, 1437 is not accounted for, neither is 1440.
1437 was destroyed in the Union Sq. wreck of '91
CLICK TO SEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, 1440 suffered the same fate. See the "scrapped/wrecked car roster" section of this site for more info.
Peace,
ANDEE
1437 sits in two pieces at the end of yard trackage over in Concourse Yard (Bronx), home of the B and D Lines. The other cars in question, 1435,36,39, and 40 are at 207th St Yard. Each suffered damage that has kept them off the road for a long time. 1438 wasn't at the front of the train when the accident at 14th St occurred so it was spared.
-Stef
[1438 wasn't at the front of the train when the accident at 14th St occurred so it was spared.]
...and coupled to 1434, and got a full-width cab.
So the first 5 cars on the train I was on were involved in that infamous 14th Street wreck. At least they didn't all end up like 1437. I wonder what'll happen to all those cars that are still OOS.
No, only 1438 was involved in the Union Sq. crash.
To help me get this straight, I would need the car numbers in the consist that was involved in this wreck, starting from the front of the train.
The cars that were involved in the wreck were 1437 (front car that split), 1439 (damaged), 1440 (side sheared off), 1436 (damaged), and 1435 (damaged). Although no one's in a rush to scrap them (designated Out Of Service), I imagine that they will at some point or another if they are beyond the point of repair. All it will take is for someone from personnel to say "I want these scrapped" and off they go.
-Stef
Those cars will remain OOS permanently but will not be scrapped. They will remain "as is".
Have they had any parts stripped?
You be the judge, these will take you to photos of 1437 taken in August of this year.
UNION SQUARE WRECK #1437
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, the number plates seem to have disappeared, and each half has sprouted an extra truck, and looks to belong with the subway cars of the 1970's and early '80s with all that graffiti.
It also looks like the NYCT shields are gone, too.
Also notice that the gates are gone from the end of the car and the rollsign is missing.
Peace,
ANDEE
All the speakers are gone too!
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't believe there is grafitti on them!
running on...
or
While i was looking at the pictures of wreck R62 #1437 in two piece, but i thought R62 #1440 was a lead car & i remember seeing the Daily News that have a picture of R62 #1440 or #1437 in half. The cars was #1440-#1437-#1436-#1439-#1435 i think? Do any one have a information about 14th St wreck??
Peace Out
David Justiniano
The train which wrecked at Union Square on August 28, 1991 was the last set of Kawasaki R62 to NOT be arranged in their semi-permanent, link-bar (Current) configuration.
The consist was as follows:
1st Car: 1437 (cut in half)
2nd Car: 1439 (body and roof damage)
3rd Car: 1440 (severe gash in side; nearly cut in two)
4th Car: 1436 (crush damage to both ends)
5th Car: 1435 (crush damage to forward end)
6th Car: 1434 (undamaged)
7th Car through 10th car: 1431, 1432, 1433, 1438 not sure what order
wayne
Does anybody know what happened to these cars. They were involved in the DeKalb Avenue derailment a few months ago. What about the R68As that derailed outside of Concourse Yard a few days after that?
running on...
or
Does anyone here know the official reason for renumbering the R44 and the R46 cars?
I believe it was to get the cars back into numerical order. For example, a 4 car R46 consist today might be: 5714,5715,5717,5716 when back before the GOH the same 4 cars might have read:792,1017,675,884. I could imagine that looking for a specific car back then must have been like looking for a needle in a haystack before you got used to the consist numbers. This way, it's a lot easier to find a specific car now and all the R44/46s are in the same numerical order now with very few exceptions. One exception is: 5616,5617,6203,6202.
and I think there was a policy to have all equ. with 4 digit numbers
They could'nt use 3 numbers right away cause it would have confused the hell out of everybody(especially dispatchers and CED). All the 44s and most of the 46s had 3 numbers before the GOH.
[All the 44s and most of the 46s had 3 numbers before the GOH.]
And the Staten Island R44 cars still do.
I guess they couldn't just stick a zero in the front of those numbers, eh?
The September issue of Railpace has a article and many photos of the NRHS Convention this past July. They were based in a Stamford hotel and did:
- Danbury diesel museum
- Naugatuck diesel museum (north of Waterbury)
- Shoreline trolley museum
- Steam museum at Essex, incl. dinner cruise
- tour of Grand Central Station
- trip from Stamford to NH, then up to Hartford, then East to Palmer, then South to New London, then back to Stamford.
There were 576 attendees, but not all di all the trips.
This issue also has a feature on the M-N extention to Wassaic.
(and I originally went to my local hobby shop to pick up the August issue.)
Mr t__:^)
Saw a piece on New york channel 5 news last night...
The MTA is considering sinking some of the Redbirds to the bottom of the ocean to make artificial reefs. They need authority from a couple of agencies to do this, but it is being considered for the end of next year or so. Interesting note: the newsperson referred to the cars as "Redbirds" several times.
Please refer to the other thread on this sad story called "Redbirds to join the Titanic." I cringe just thinking about it.
Sad, yes, I wish that they could all somehow stay in service, along with the R-16s, 17s, 19s, 21s, etc. I am NOT and never will be a fan of those new-fangled cars. 75% of what made me a fan of the NYC subways will be gone when they remove all of the arch-roof subway cars. Instead, we'll have a monorail, or the Tokyo, or Montreal subway. Progress is inevitible, but that doesn't mean I have to like it...
[I wish that they could all somehow stay in service, along with the R-16s, 17s, 19s, 21s, etc. I am NOT and never will be a fan of those new-fangled cars.]
It's all relative. To me anything later than a R-10, BMT Stardard and Triplex or IRT Hi-V is newfangled :-)
[To me anything later than a R-10, BMT Stardard and Triplex or IRT Hi-V is newfangled]
To me, R62(a)'s and above are "newfangled."
I thought the R-32s were newfangled when they were new.
["Sad, yes, I wish that they could all somehow stay in service, along with the R-16s, 17s, 19s, 21s, etc. I am NOT and never will be a fan of those new-fangled cars."]
As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure there are alot like me on this board, the above mentioned subway cars and any other post WWII cars ARE New-Fangled subway cars!! Nothing like the bull and pinion gear sounds, straw seats, bare lightbulbs, etc of the R1-9's, Low V's, and BMT Standards, etc!!!
(Put your volumn up and Listen carefully!!!)
I'm with you, Jeff.
Nothing like those cane seats, you'd ride a while and get up and your butt cheeks felt like a waffle.
And those HUGE-bladed fans in the cars, they looked like Lockheed Electra props.
Oh yes, the SOUND!!! Just about had a heart attack when it just cut in, but oh boy, did it bring back memories!!!!
R-17's and 16's aren't in service where are you coming from? you don't have to be a fan of the new cars but the Redbirds got to go so get over it! everything has a life! they are outdated and corroded all around! so stop moping around and move along with the future happenings! again you don't have to like the new cars but you're gonna have to appreciate them. plus we aren't getting a subway system make over identical to other canadian or european cities! we are staying an original system like it was when it first came out however technology is pushing us for an upgrade in everything. those subway cars are not identical to things across the ocean and north of the border. they are new york authentic and more sophisticated than anything else how do i know ? i went to montreal over the weekend. that brings a fact that NYC subway isn't a montreal wannabe.
[i went to montreal over the weekend. that brings a fact that NYC subway isn't a montreal wannabe.]
With all respect to everyone on this board, but what exactly IS the problem with the Montreal system? Or for that matter, other systems around the globe or nation such as Washington DC?
As for Montreal, each station has a look all its own. Some look like small pavilions. The trains and stations are clean enough to make you think you're not in a station but are rather in a mall. There is no grafitti. The trains are swift, quiet and comfortable.
The system is run efficiently and made to serve its PURPOSE - transporting people to where they have to go in a reasonably comfortable way. The purpose of a city subway is not to live in the past and have people move around in cars and stations which were great when they were new 30, 40, 50 years ago but are now way past their prime. Looking at a car from the 30's or 40's is wonderful to look at or enjoy in a museum. Most straphangers will not find them much fun when going back and forth in them each day to work through winter and summer.
From some of the messages posted on this board (besides this thread), it sounds like subways in other parts of the world are "bad" because they lack the historical significance or "feel" of the NYC subway. If they are more modern looking, it's because they were built much later than NYC. The same way that "newer" does not mean "better", it does not necessarily mean "inferior" either.
i don't find STCUM'S metro system a dissapointment. i like the system.
i am sticking up for the NYC subway system for it being defamed as very crappy, which it is better than most offering of service.
also. in montreal subways, there do exist grafitti. its very little but it does exist. scratching windows exist also. seen last weekend on one a few of their trains. however that is also very little in occurrence. also, one thing that i dislike is the system not running 24 hours, which you have to rely on buses at night to get around (no fun).
Picked up the Sept, issue of Model Railroader & immediately thought of our Bean Town friend.
Recently this same publication ran a feature of a trolley layout. This one could be incorporated into the same layout, though it wouldn't be exactly prototype, but what the hay.
Article shows a nice street running short line on the Boston waterfront that existed until 1972. At one point there was a elevated "Atlantic Avenue" RT line that shared the street. I worked in that area in the sixties but don't think I ever saw anything on the rails.
Mr t__:^)
They mostly ran at night, to avoid auto traffic. There's a book called "The Railroad That Came Out at Night"
Thanks for the input Dave, I've made a copy of you reply & will look for the book.
The thing that interts me is that I could model: PCC, Els, Subways (Blue line with 3rd rail & pantograph) & freight in the city on one layout. Now maybe I'ld use a R-17 or a R-9 on the Blue line, but then it would only be almost prototype.
Mr t__:^)
I gather you are just interested in Boston's trolley freight? There are some pictures in the TMNY archives of other trolley freight operations. One that I recall off the top of my head is Tulsa-Sapulpa Union.
How 'bout Pacific Electric's freight service?
Well you see dear colleague, I have these two big boxes of HO freight cars that I got when May's & EJ Korvette had their after-Christmas 99 cent sale ... now that I'm a subway buff I need to work them into a subway/trolley layout. Add to this, there's only two trolleys I ever rode in revenue service (Boston & Newark NJ) ... so you see my problem.
Thank you very much for the input, I do apprecieate it !
BTW, I have been collecting issues of Trolley magazines that feature freight operation. The PROBLEM with the Boston operation is that it was a diesel incl. a pair of 44 toners near the end ... so what do I do with my RS-3 or C-Liner. The good news is the kids are moving out, so I get my layout room back ... only took 20 years.
Mr t__:^)
Why not free-lance a model railroad? My home layout in HO features streetcar, transitition era steam-diesel, heavy electrics (a la Milwaukee Road) and Interurban service...and I'm not restrained by what already exists....
Abe
[Why not free-lance a model railroad?]
Because I want to get real close to the track & feel like I'm on that train going down those streets that I remember riding :-)
Originally I was going to model the area around Middletown CT in the 60s, i.e. PC, NH, NYC, passenger & coal trains, bargdes, a swing bridge and a small trolley line (that was a stretch as the trolley line was gone by the 60s) ... now that I've grown up an RDC just won't do and I'm not much of a steam fan (roll back further in time), so a small corner of Boston or NYC is a must. You can see now why I got excited with the two recent Model Railroader articles (Riverside, Resevoir, Park Street, Wonderland, the North End ahhhh memories)
Mr t__:^)
The last time I read, they were going to make the 2 run express in the Bronx during the rush hours and the 5 from Dyre run local.
Yeah, but political pressure may cancel that idea.
See my post of 7:59:51 this morning
From what I hear:
Acela Express has received certification by the FRA to begin revenue
operations. This applies to ALL train sets.
The certification includes authority to run at up to 150 mph. Also, authority has been granted for up to 7 inches of cant deficiency in the New Haven-Boston segment and up to 6 inches of cant deficiency in the Washington-New York segment. Maximum authorized speed in curves is 130 mph at this time.
I've also received a report that the A.E. train set under test made a daytime BOS-NYP run about a week ago at 3 hours 19 minutes 40 seconds, making all expected station stops.
Training runs will be required before the first A.E. revenue run, but it seems clear that Amtrak will easily make the announced 29 October startup.
When I rode Acela Regional a few weeks ago, the conductor told he had already been trained and qualified on AE, and many crews have accomplished this!
Who cares about transit riders here? Nobody & especially the..........
TRANSIT DEPENDENT !!!
Okay I'll bite (bad Monday here). WHO CARES it is 10 days, last strike out there went months. Hey it is LA, get a car anyway.
I assume you will post every day that it is X Days into the strike.
How about somethig more constructive, like telling us Easterners what is the status of the strike. Where the union stands/mangagement and why doesn't your local politicans get off their collective tush and force them back to work if transit is so vital to LA then pass a form of the NY Taylor law.
But as I said this is LA and that would never happen.
If you remember in 1989 Amtrak rebuilt the Atlantic City line and launched its gamblers express service. Well in 1994 or so they pulled out. In 2000 the NJT connecting service was no longer listed on the timetables. Today Amtrak is adding insult to injury by offering Casino trains from Philly to New London CT so people can gamble at Foxwoods. Well suspending service is one thing, but reaching down into the Philly to take money away fron South Jersey's other industry is just plain wrong. I don't seeing them offering trains from Boston to Atlantic City? AC's a great place, but it constantly gets a bad rap. The Simpsons, late nite TV, etc all make fun of it. Its not that bad. Its a good city, just give it a chance!
Atlantic City is a dive. A slum with casinos. No doubt about it.
Maybe 3 people might decide to do the 6 hour jaunt to Foxwoods compared to 90 mins. for AC. But lets face it, leaving the casino and venturing out onto the street(except the Boardwalk) is always a gamble in itself. A "dicey" proposition if you will(insert rim shot here).
Besides, once you see Las Vegas you'll never see AC the same way again.
And Amtrak doesn't go there,either!
Yes it does! But in Las Vegas, New Mexico.
But doesn't Atlantic City have pretty frequent New Jersey Transit service? Anyone interested in going to Atlantic City coming from somewhere else on the Northeast Corridor (or from points West via the Three Rivers and Pennsylvanian) can change at 30th Street Station to NJT.
There are certainly places where Amtrak serves the same stations as commuter systems and could be potential competitors. But a Philly-A.C. line was the only place where Amtrak and a commuter authority competed head to head over the entire length of Amtrak's and the comm. auth's route. In other words, maybe Philly-A.C. was seen as a commuter route that Amtrak had no business being in?
I did take NJT from Phily to A/C.
It is a long long trip and not made easy by NJT if you ask me.
Tickets at philly are only available at a NJT ticket machine. Conductors on board insist that the machine is working and will charge the penality fare if you do not buy your ticket at the machine.
Amtrak through ticketing is accepted as long as you bought your Amtrak ticket anyplace but Philly. You CAN NOT buy a A/C ticket at the Amtrak counter in Philly, they point to the NJT machine.
Also Note You can not buy an A/C ticket in NY Penn for NJT too, I tried.
Going it is a long overgrown (ie can not see pass the trees on the right of way). A lot single track and you have to wait at a passing siding. There is one long passing siding closer to A/C but on the way back we used it all up and had to stop anyway.
Arrival at A/C and EVERYONE runs for the buses. Most are packed and you have to wait. I was a Ceasers so I walked.
Same trip on the way back, except this time we were held at the point just before entering the Northeast Cor. We just sat waiting for a hole to cross all four tracks. Over 20 minutes waiting for a hole. I find it easier just to take a bus.
I went when they had just opened the AC convention centre and it was a blast. They were running 6 car trains and filling them. 85 mph running and no waiting around at all. Of course it was a weekend.
I suspect that if you know the NJT station codes for 30th Street and Atlantic City you may be able to purchase a ticket in NYP. However, they shouldn't make it that difficult.
When the trains are running on time (frequently) the pass without either train having to stop (single track, passing siding).
The Summer/Fall 2000 timetable, effective July 9, has page 41 devoted to Amtrak/NJ Transit connecting service from Philly to Atlantic City, including connections from/to Boston/Springfield and New York, as well as Newport News, Richmond, and Washingtopn.
Well they droped it in the new map, both in the national timetable and the poster on the wall of the Topeaka station. I made a point to look.
The Amtrak National timetable/map tends to only list the major [i.e. long distance] routes, since there IS a separate Northeast timetable...Just like the National folder doesn't list oa lot of the California services..[San Die..oops..'Surfliners',etc....]
"Just like the National folder doesn't list a lot of the California services"
Incorrect. I have a copy of the National Timetable on my desk. :^) It's true that it doesn't include Northeast trains except for long-distance or sleeper trains like the Vermonter and Twilight Shoreliner. But outside the Northeast, the NT includes every Amtrak train. All the California corridor services (Surfliners, Capitols, and San Joaquins) are fully listed.
Is this a service with separate trains devoted to it, or is it a 'marketing' route, IE, take any train from here to there, and catch the bus at New London to Foxwoods on a single, coordinated ticket? If the latter, and I suspect it is, it's merely developing a destination with existing service that has revenue potential.
-Hank
Metro North has a package plan that includes casino bonus at Foxwoods, roundtrip rail transportation to New Haven and A/C motor coach transportation from New Haven to Foxwoods.
Amtrak proabably offers the same deal/even the same bus.
I've seen the buses line up outside New Haven (no not the regular Greyhound run) for Foxwoods. Speaking of which Greyhound has service to Foxwoods from Boston, New York and Philly.
I don't think we should blame Amtrak, but compliment Foxwoods for a great marketing stratagey.
Just curious - is it a dedicated Amtrak-only bus [i.e. as in Amtrak Thruway service..],or just a bus that meets all trains at New Haven? Speaking of which, on my Lake Shore going to Chicago, we were [of course] late, and a worried passenger was asking the conductor weither her bus to Detroit from would be there, and the guy had to reassure her that the bus was for Amtrak passengers only, etc, etc...
Its a Special train service for some weekend in the future. Like "Amtrak gets its passengers to waste their money days".
Rembember in the early 1990s, when Amtrak made a huge, multi-state service-cut? Routes were eliminated right and left. One of these routes that Amtrak was to abandon was its 'Keystone' line, between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. This would have left only 2 trains, the Three Rivers and the Pennsylvanian, serving points between PHL and HAR.
The Commonwealth saved the service my partially funding it, which is now happening on other, shorter Amtrak routes throughout the country, and is a big part of the MRRI (Midwest Regional Rail Initiative). Restoration of the more "frequent" service on the eastern portion of the former PRR Main Line was largely due to the efforts of Governor Tom Ridge, who must be one of those "different kind of conservatives." [Actually, PA is known for loopy politicians, like Bob Casey, who was a Democrat but acted like a conservative on social issues, and Ridge, who is a Republican, but fiscally only, with some exceptions, one of which mentioned here.] In fact, Amtrak is publically touting its strategy of getting states to fund service, and strongly supports legislation allowing states to allocate federal transportation money to rail. This is opposed by the highway lobby and conservatives in congress such as John McCain, who wants to see Amtrak die just as much as campaign finance reform, and who happens to hail from a state where there is gobs and gobs of room for plenty more cars and more cars.
Essentially, nowadays 'Keystone' trains are not Amtrak trains but PennDOT trains, and used to be listed as such in the ridership charts in the now-defunct Rail News magazine. The only thing "Amtrak" about Keystone trains is the equipment and the logo. There are even separate crews who work the Philly-Harrisburg leg. The gentlemen have a distinct Central PA accent, and I believe most of them are Harrisburg-based (although this is probably not a new development for this portion of Main Line train service, as HAR was always a crew transfer point). The only reason the trains aren't SEPTA is because that agency is not legally mandated to provide service west of Lancaster County. This is just as well to me, because I would thoroughly dislike riding a commuter train 2 hours between Philadelphia and the state capital. (I don't know how LIRR & MNRR commuters who commute from, say, New Haven or Poughkeepsie do it!) But back to the AC line: the the state of New Jersey has done the same thing as PennDOT has with the 'Keystone' line. The only difference is that New Jersey is a small state, area-wise, and has a statewide transit agency with its own equipment.
Governor Milton Shapp was before your time, Pete, but he fought very hard to have a local or regional agency run the Harrisburg-Philly service because he knew Amtrak service would be inadequate. I would be willing to trade a degree of comfort to get hourly SEPTA service between Harrisburg and Philly.
This is akin to my argument told to people who tout the cleanliness of Pierce Transit's (TAcoma) buses that I would much rather take a MUNI LRV that smells like urine running every 3 mionutes than a clean hourly bus.
"One of these routes that Amtrak was to abandon was its 'Keystone' line, between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. This would have left only 2 trains, the Three Rivers and the Pennsylvanian, serving points between PHL and HAR."
Although it sounds crazy to abandon a wildly popular route such as the Keystone, I guess the line with its electrifacation and substations and interlocking towers was sort of an albatross around Amtrak's neck. I'll bet they are happy now, with the Harrisburg Intermodal facility and a 3rd NY-CHG freight train in the works. I wonder if Amtrak ever wanted to rid its self of the Springfield line? Now I assume that Amtrak still staffs the towers and preforms the maintainence.
"PRR Main Line was largely due to the efforts of Governor Tom Ridge,"
Ridge saved the Phil-Harrisburg line. What is the state capitol of PA again? What TRAIN SERVICE provides lawmakers a convienent escape from Harrisburg to NYC and Philly? What large state complex is only 5 minutes from the train station?
(I don't know how LIRR & MNRR commuters who commute from, say,
New Haven or Poughkeepsie do it!)
My question is why anybody would want to commute that far to New York? It's crazy. Both New Haven and Poughkeepsie are 75 miles from New York. That's too far. Anything more than 50 miles seems ridiculous to me.
When I head home from school I take the bus to New Haven and catch the train back to New York. Because M-N is cheaper, I usually take it. But I do take Amtrak occasionally because I like the wider softer fabric seats and the quieter smoother ride on Amtrak plus the fact that Train #163 makes no stops between New Haven and Penn Station. If it was a little less than $34 one way, I'd take Amtrak home more often. Were it more convenient, I'd take it from Hartford as it's closer to UConn.
So I can see your point about not wanting to ride a SEPTA train 110 miles between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. It would be one very uncomfortable ride. If anything, the electrified Main Line should be operated with high-speed trains.
Plus, SEPTA gives you a grand choice of 2 cars on almost all lines, even when there are more available. Even during the strike, when most trains were SRO! Of course, with all those low-plat stops, it's pretty difficult to open more than one door per stop.
I know. And it takes much longer to load and unload passengers at those low-platform stations. Would it kill SEPTA to put high platforms at more stations, especially on lines with high ridership such as the R5 to Paoli and the R7 to Trenton?
Hi platforms on the R5 would ruin the ambiance. The stations are adorable and hi platforms would cut into the sight lines.
Won't they eventually have to anyway? To be ADA compliant? Or do they do what MN did here at Middletown when they moved the station, and have one of those ramps with a small platform for the disabled customers?
MN Probably wanted high platforms, but 75% of the NJT equipment used on that line can't handle it. The three MN Pascack line stops are the same way, as well as Rutherford and a few other NJT stops on the Bergen line.
The strange thing is, Cornwells Hts. PA has one of those ramps (recently built), and AMTRAK has to stop there (flag stop, but still). SEPTA's trains are 100% hi-plat compliant!
But do they have automatic doors like NJT? I think a conductor has to open them.
Well they can't use low-floor EMU trains, like on some lines in Germany, because they would be unable to platform at 30th St, Suburban, and Market East. Maybe the high platforms could be installed just past the station houses on the rail lines so they will not cut into the sight lines.
All they really need are staircases going from the ground to the door, as was done at LIC so the C-3s could use the low platform tracks.
To you and me, yes it's crazy to commute that far to/from work. But a lot of co-workers that I know do that and more. I cannot count how many people at the TA live in the Poconos. 2 hours driving, each way every day. Some guys drive to Dover, NJ and take the NJT train in. And some guys live out in the "boondocks" on Long Island making at least a 90 min. commute each way every day. Why? Economics is one reason. Cheaper houses and way cheaper property taxes. The other reason is the quality of life compared to living in the city. Me? I couldn't do it. But if I had to, I'd much rather take the train and drive home from the station rather than drive the whole way.
The Port Jervis line takes 2.5-3 hours from PJ. You like have to catch the 5:30 Am train to get to work on time. Although it does provide for a nice long nap.
Schedule time from Port to Hoboken during the peak hours is 'only' 2 hours now, thanks to the running non-stop after Suffern..[Middletown is 'only' 1 1/2] Of course, there the aforementioned folks who live somewhere in Pike county PA who drive up to an HOUR into Port....Also quite a few folks come to Middletown from points in Sullivan Co [Monticello, Wurtsboro,etc..]adding up to another half hour to THEIR trips.....
An interesting idea would be to rebuild several MU cars to have slightly more comfortable seats, and go faster (100-120 mph) and use them to provide express service on routes such as Phila-Harrisburg or Phila-NY, but for a lower price than Amtrak. ($20 one way instead of $40). It just might work
Well, they're not transit rail, but they are related to passenger rail. I don't expect you to do any research or such, but as a railfan, I thought that you might have picked up something on these two questions:
1) Is there any "buzz" in Monterrey about Amtrak's planned daily train from San Antonio, TX to Monterrey via Laredo and Nuevo Laredo? (It's not just talk; test trains have been run and there were/are serious negotiations with the company that owns the tracks.) Is there a useable station building in Monterrey?
2) Is it true that there's NO passenger rail service in Mexico at all? It's my understanding that when they privatized NdeM, the purchasing companies killed off passenger service so they could use the line for freight only. Not once a day trains, like Amtrak. Not thrice weekly, like VIA's transcontinental route. No scheduled passenger trains at all, period.
Sorry I can't provide any insight about any of your questions yet.
My appointments have been from sun-up to sun-down on the side of the city far away from any rail, so I haven't even SEEN a rail car yet. And the way thing are going, I may not on this trip. Very disappointing!
A friend of mine has a working replica of 1898 Open Trolley that ran across the Brooklyn Bridge. This is a one of a kind miniature built by William G. vaill in Connecticut in 1907 for A.C. Gilbert, then president of American Flyer electric trains. It is very similar to the 15 bench Open-Style Trolley currently being built by Gomaco Corp, but in 1:18 scale. Would like to find out what this model is worth.
Any ideas?
I don't have any idea of its worth, but there is something wrong with the story. Gilbert did not buy American Flyer until 1938, and he was only 23 in 1907.
R-40's don't need to be scrapped. all they need is a new stainless steel roof to fit them and they can stay in service for as long as R-32's unless they are also a mechanical nightmare.
The R-40 (and R-40M), like the R-38 and R-42, does not have stainless steel structural members. So, in addition to the roof problems, the cars are rotting from within. The cars are about as reliable as any in the fleet (July 2000 Mean Distance Between Failures was 358,996 -- highest in the system -- and 12-month moving average MDBF was 140,163 vs. fleet-wide 12-month MDBF of 101,102). The R-32s are stainless steel inside and out.
David
oh! the frame isn't stainless steel. thats sad. they are the best in the system.
For speed and rilfan-window watching. As for comfort (and recently, noise), they rank at the bottom. A pox on the person responsible for designing those unbearabley uncomfortable seats.
I personally love the R42's much better. Too bad their potential is wasted on the BMT eastern division.
The R42 is a better train than the R40. Especially in the T/O's cab. You can adjust the seat to your comfort level unlike the 40s(slant & mod.) where it's fixed in place.
The only good thing about the slant 40 is that it still looks cool with the slope and those funky "star trek" end doors.
Why would they terminate these two trains at 34 street? This is a major transit hub. It would only cause delays.
?? What are you asking?
All last weekend the D terminated at 34st on the Broadway and 6th Ave lines. THis was do to a "General Order" (G.O.) that ordered the service disrubtion so work could be done on the Manhattan Bridge.
This is an excellent place, people can easily transfer between the two lines. Operationaly it is excellent, there is an extensive interlocking plant AND Tower on both the 6th Ave and Broadway lines. This allows a few options in turning trains.
For example it got a bit heavy on the Broadway line, I came southbound on an N train just as a D relayed onto the downtown express track into the station. The N left, now a southbond R arriving with a northbound D (express) and R local. AS soon as the north bound left the platform to relay to the southbound express another D showed up north bound. That is all I could witness since we got starting bell (another reason, to turn trains here) and off we went south express.
Pretty big station so there was room for Cleaners to sweep the train since this was now a terminal for the weekend and I do love running BROADWAY EXPRESS (too bad you have to switch local instead of the bridge, but we all know that will change!!)
Hey Lou,
I was at the Planetarium this weekend, and had to switch to the Broadway line to get to Brooklyn. There was a "D" waiting on the express track, so I took it. This is the first time I've been on the B'way express since the North side of the bridge was closed the last time. What a joy to ride again. However, the switch to the local track south of Prince really ends the party. Booooooo ! Just wait till June. Anyway, maybe a few of us can get together for a railfan trip as soon as the Southside opens? How 'bout a fairwell to the A/B side?
Sounds Kewl, on a Slant 40 no less!!
Absolutely !
the 7 lines 42nd street grand central station is so ugly! whatever is on the ceiling looks like a spider lives in the station (i hate spiders!) and the painted over walls leak some yukky looking yellow gunk from its cracks which should have been sealed up before painting. it looks nasty altogether. maybe when it is finished, it would look better hopefully. 7'th ave on the E,B,D,and Q NEED DESPERATELY A PAINT OVER! the station has chipped paint falling all over the place looks like it was never renovated. 59th on the 4/5 need tile replacement and walls re-cemented to stop leaks. also desperate paintover. these stations to me are the worst renovated and better work could've been done to better them.
Grand Central's # 7 line platform is disapointing for an IRT, completely unadorned, and one of the the ugliest stations in the whole system (I think the E and F at Lexington is even worse.)
I agree. E/F Lexington and 42nd on the 7 literally look like holes in the ground.
They ARE holes in the ground.
I guess you haven't been to Chambers Street (BMT) then :)
--Mark
Yeah, Ellis Island and the Colosseum rolled into one.:-)
The only thing wrong with Chambers St. station is that it has been neglected. Otherwise, its a very appealing underground cathedral. There is tiling covering the girders, terra-cotta wall decorations, and decent lighting. There's no comparison to E/F Lex here, which is completely unadorned.
And about peeling paint and water-leaks: a while back I made a case for NOT painting in the subway, and I'm sticking to it. I too cited 5 Av. / 53 St. E/F. I say just strip the paint off the concrete walls and be done with it. Then the worst it will appear is like the water damage in the DC Metro, which is far more desireable than having chipping, peeling paint everywhere. Painting is unnecessary in the subway. It makes it look worse.
i agree. when leeks occur it woun't look so bad on the walls. however other things will still build up thats not attractive. things such as, mildew, algae, and this yellow pasty gunk i see on station walls opposite the platform that builds up after a leak. its very nasty to look at. looks like someone sneezed and forgot to clean it up.
Stalagmites and stalactites are forming at PATH Pavonia Newport station. People have learned not to touch columns or handrails. No one exits or enters the westernmost car, the platform there is turning rust-colored. This is after the station was renovated. There is a large white lump in the middle of the 33st/Hoboken bound track. Any NYCT stations like that?
I don't know how to tell you this...but I think your PATH station has cancer.
I'm sorry.
;)Andrew
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooo.
my god! thats the worse i've ever heard! those stations sound like they are developing a skin disease! water brings so much to those stations. very nasty!
The platform level is the only place that has it, the rest of the station looks great. Strangely, even the abandoned platform is immune to this.
The two ugliest stations in my book are both on the G line. Van Alst and Broadway stations. Van Alst hasn't seen a coat of paint in eons never mind years. All the paint in the station is chipped and peeling. And don't forget the homosexuals who use the station as their private bathhouse. Although it's not nearly as bad as it used to be, the problem is still there.
And Broadway is THE WORST. What in the world is that strange light brown slime that coats the walls and platforms? And I mean COATS! Ever seen it? Very eerie stuff. They clean it up once in a while and then it's back in less than a week. You can talk about 7th Av. and Lex.Av. all you want, I'll take it anyday over B'way and Van Alst on the G.
What about that brown gunk at the Grand Avenue (Newtown) station?
Personal opinion here, but if we're talking "ugly" in the sense of design as opposed to grime and neglect, I vote for any of the bright orange glazed brick stations, like 49th Street on Broadway BMT. Yuck, yuck, yuck, what were they thinking? It is ironic to have the ugliest station smack dab in the middle of the theatre district, a center for some of the best artists in the country. There are probably some very nice mosaics forever buried behind those bricks. Does any SubTalker remember this station before it was destroyed like this?
These orange bricks also adorn the newest stations in the system, like Lex/63rd.
And come to think of it, while we're on the subject, I'm not too fond of the lower Manhattan Broadway BMT stations and the Bay Ridge BMT line stations which have the thick, grey, junior hig school cafeteria tiles and completely obscured or removed mosaics. These were part of a dumb idea to make all the stations look the same which thankfully was never fully-realized. These are just as ugly as the orange bricks.
Thankfully, you can still get idea of what the Broadway BMT line used to look like at the express stops, like 57th/7th or Times Sq., which had its girders repainted green instead of bright red, which matches the mosaics on the side walls and is a big improvement, IMHO. BMT Times Sq. is also the only station I know of which has the older style girder signs, white with black lettering, as opposed ot the black signs with white letters which are tacked onto the ceiling supports in every other station.
And while we're at it, when 5th Ave. was first remodeled a couple of years ago, the ceiling support signs were brown with colored squares in a line at the top underneath which read "5 Av" in white lettering. These signs were nice, but have been replaced with the standard white on black with the thin white line at the top. What the heck for?
i heard that 49th street on the bmt nr got those walls as a renovation project over a decade ago, the station was in bad shape. 5th ave. got new standard signs because the old brown ones were corroded and would fall on someone.
The 49th St. renovation was a test station redesign done about 25 years ago, along with the Bowling Green station on the IRT 4/5. It may not be the best looking station, but the redesign came right after the cinder block defacement of the other BMT local stations by the MTA, which made 49th St. look a whole lot better by comparison.
191st Street (1/9)
Canal Street (J/M/Z)
Beach 90, 98 105 Streets (A/S)
Atlantic Avenue (D/Q)
City Hall (N/R)
Sutter, Livonia (L)
Bedford Avenue (L)
09/27/2000
[I vote for any of the bright orange glazed brick stations, like 49th Street on Broadway BMT. Yuck, yuck, yuck, what were they thinking?]
Re: 49th St.
Hey man! That's a 70's rehab station! Just tune in on the Game Show channel and see Match Game '76 with that orange shag carpet on the stage. One thing nice I can say about 49th St is the sound proofing that was done. Why isn't that type of sound proofing part of current station rehabs, especially as a noise abatement plan ? How about a 49th St. sound proofing job on some of Philly's Broad St. subway stations where those 65 MPH expresses shatter eardrums !
Bill "Newkirk"
Too bad the CPW local stations weren't soundproofed when that line was built. Soundproofing would have come in mighty handy when the R-10s thundered up and down that stretch on the A.
>>>7'th ave on the E,B,D,and Q ...<<<
The Q does not stop at 7th Avenue.
Peace,
ANDEE
... Manhattan, that is.
--Mark
They recently installed an elevator shaft in the middle of the platform. Where does it go?
The things that hang from the ceiling now have something new on them: signs. The only problem? The services indicated on the sign are for the track which the sign faces, not the observer, which I found confusing. What I want is for the old LOCAL/EXP signs that hang over the platforms at all stops from 5 Avenue to Queensboro Plaza to work again. I think they haven't worked in about a decade!
You wanna talk about ugly stations, the Bleecker Street station on the 6 has tiles missing, its dirty and always smells like someone used the bathroom.
Out of the stations I'm familiar with, these are the ugliest in terms of design, not the level of neglect:
Lexington Ave E,F
179th St F
Grand Central 7
49th St N,R
I'm sure I'll think of more.
:)Andrew
I've seen very little of the subway outside Manhattan, but Bleeker St on the 4, 5 struck me as ugly to the point of morbidity. On the west side, at least, a poorly lit narrow platform where you stare in semi darkness across the steel staunchions and the express tracks to the other platform which seem to be about 100 meters away and seems to be diagonally rather than directly opposite. Weird!!
The 4 might stop there at night, but the 5 never stops at Bleecker.
Bleecker Street is nice in terms of design if you ignore the neglect. I think the plaques are landmarked.
And here's another weird thing about Bleecker: You can transfer to/from the Downtown 6 to the B, D, F and Q below it, but cannot do the same for the uptown side. This is the only station where a transfer is available only to one side and not the other.
The platforms were extended in opposite directions; hence the offset arrangement. Had the northbound platform been extended southward, a transfer to it would have been easier.
When are they going to start running those R142's that are sitting up at E180?
i heard from a bombardier worker up there that they would start running in the next week of when the R-142A's (newly delivered)starts to run. those were problem free because they were worked on and used for training the workers (its what i heard)
Since the trains on Metro North and the LIRR are similar to the R42 and the R44, I feel they should test them out. I'm just curious to see if they would work out.
They already thought of that. Look for "LIRR" at http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/cap_r4446.html for photos.
Watch the crap!
Mark
They are only similar in appearance -- the Sundberg/Farrar design, and the fact that they run on electric power.
The Metropolitan commuter cars and the R44/46 subway cars are completely different otherwise. They serve different purposes. The car dimensions are totally different, the trucks and motors are totally different, and so are the electrical systems.
Not only that, but the R-44s and R-46s can't even m. u. with each other!
The R44 WAS tested on the LIRR in 1971. I assume they were tested here and not on the Sea Beach express tracks, the traditional testing area for new cars, because the system had not been sufficiently modified to use 75' cars. I believe a few tight spots had to be altered to accomodate the longer cars.
I was always curious as to why the TA, being the boring, bland car designers they had been since 1932, would agree to purchase a car so completely different from the ones they purchased for decades. If 75' cars was such a great idea, why weren't previous models made to such lengths?
What I'd like to know is why a similar car to R44/46 wasn't designed for the IRT Lines? It also would have been nice to have seen colored signs on the IRT lines in the late '60s and '70s.
At the time the R-44 was ordered (1969), the newest cars in the IRT fleet (R-36s) were just 5-6 years old, and the oldest (R-12s, other than the few World's Fair Lo-Vs on the Third Avenue "El" that were about to be retired) were just 21 years old. It was far too early to be thinking about retiring IRT "mainline" cars.
Incidentally, the original plan for the R-62 cars featured melamine interiors and blue stripes!
David
It was a matter of replacement timing. The IRT was more in need to new cars in the 1950s-early 1960s, which is when the bulk of their new orders arrived. The BMT trains were on average, about a decade younger than the IRT cars in the 1950s, so instead of being replaced from 1955-64, they were replaced from 1960-69 (AFAIK the R-16s didn't replace anything when they were introduced in 1954).
By 1971-72, when the R-44s/46s arrived, they were earmarked to replace the original IND cars, which were nearing their 40th birthday. The oldest IRT cars by then were the R-12s, which were just 23 years old, so there was no reason to buy new cars for that system. (There was a lot of reason to air-condition the cars the IRT had, but that's another story)
The R-44 was tested on the LIRR because the tests were done at high speeds (70+ mph).
David
I was always curious as to why the TA, being the boring, bland car designers they had been since 1932, would agree to purchase a car so completely different from the ones they purchased for decades.
The MTA, when it was formed in 1968, had a goal of having the fleet contain a common look, not unlike the recent replacement of the "M Transit" logo with the MTA 'pacman style' logo adorning the fleet today. The M-1s were also nicknames "The Metropolitans" and were silver with a blue stripe. The R-42/R-44/R-46 style is very similar. LAHT trains were painted the then-familiar silver with the blue stripe, too. As a cost cutting move, and also to get federal UMTA money, the MTA purchased 400 or so R-44s which were based on the SOAC cars being "showcased" on various subway ststems in the US a few years before. 754 R-46s were then ordered subsequently.
If 75' cars was such a great idea, why weren't previous models made to such lengths?
The IND did think about an articulated car before settling on the R-1 design. As to whether it was a good idea, I suppose that it did save money, because 8 75-footers is the same as 10 60-footers. To make sure IND/BMT lines could handle the new 75 foot cars, an R-1/9 car was sliced in half and extended with what looked like part of a flatcar to a length of 75 feet, and then sent around the system to measure clearances. There were instances of tunnel walls being shaved so the cars could negotiate some of the tighter curves in the system. I don't know where these points were.
--Mark
The R-44 order was for 240 cars, later expanded to 300, plus 52 for Staten Island. The cars were contracted for in 1969 and built in 1971-73 (Staten Island's cars were built in 1973). The two State-of-the-Art Cars were delivered on August 31, 1972 (per the book The History of the St. Louis Car Company) and were taken around the country during 1974. Someone's timeline is off.
David
You may be right in that the SOAC was based off the R-44 instead of the other way around.
I do know that they share quite a resemblance, and the UMTA at the time was "encouraging" transit systems to adapt the design by offering additional funding if it was used.
--Mark
According to "From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company," the R-44 contract was job #1858 (November 26, 1969 for 240 cars) and job #6406 (trucks), later changed to jobs #1C (cars) and #1D (trucks). On July 31, 1970, the 52 SIRT cars were added to the order, and on August 26,1970, the additional 60 NYCT(A) cars, for a total of 300, were ordered.
As for the SOAC, they were ordered by Boeing Vertol (the SOAC systems manager) in 1971 and were delivered (as I previously said) in 1972.
David
I think one spot was the nasty S curve between Cortlandt St. and City Hall on the BMT.
Next Month I will be driving from Virginia up I 95 to NYC, I would like to stop in Philly for a few hours. Can anyone in Philly tell me where I could park my car near I 95 and a Train/Trolley Line to get me into downtown where parking is not too expensive and safe.
DON"T TAKE I-95!!! Cross over to New Jersey via the Delaware Memorial Bridge just south of Wilmington Delaware. (the toll is still only $2) Then take I-295 north to exit 31, PATCO Woodcrest Station. There should be free parking and a round trip downtown is $4.20. The ride will be like 16 min each way. You can also buy a SEPTA transfer for $1.80. Then when you are ready to leave you take I-295 all the way to Exit 60 and head east on I-195 to exit 7 which is the NJ Turnpike. Its fast and easy will 65mph speed limit and very little traffic. Just watch out around the Rt. 42/I-76 mess. Just keep to the right lane and you'll be fine.
Cross over to New Jersey via the Delaware Memorial Bridge just south of Wilmington Delaware. (the toll is still only $2)
Like all other bridges out of Jersey in that area, the toll is only paid when exiting New Jersey, and the toll is $3 (it went up the same time as the rest of the bridges did).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Delaware Memorial isn't a DRPA bridge and I'm not positive that the toll is $3. The last I heard it was still $2 one way.
Trust me... I drive it regularly. It's $3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I went down to Delaware last March it was $2. Back in the day when the DRPA dridges were 90 cents one way, the Del Mem was 75 cents.
I was on it 10 days ago. It's $3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Abandon I95 in favor of I295 at any of the bridges (Delaware Memorial, Commodore Barry, or Walt Whitman; signs on 95 point you to the bridges and signs coming off the bridges point you to 295), exit 295 at Woodcrest (exit approx. 31), park in the free PATCO lot and take PATCO into Center City. Subsequently, there is easy access to the NJ Turnpike from 295 at exits 36, 47 and 56 (Turnpike exits 4, 5, and 6).
My parents while driving me to school timed it and its faster to take I-195 and exit 7A + you don't have to pay as much and you avoid all those trucks taking the NJTP/295 changeover.
I had not seen your response when I posted mine; mine is not meant as a contradiction. It can be considered an alternative.
BTW, I don't take 295 to 195; I take 130 from 295 exit 57 to 195. It saves several miles.
Another option is to stay on I-95 into Penna from Delaware and exit at the Broad St/PA 611 exit (I think it's exit 14). Follow the signs for the park/ride at the Sports Complex ($2 to park, I believe), then take the Broad St subway into Center City and connect with anything you'd like from there. When done, drive to I-76 east (Walt Whitman Bridge) and follow to I-295 north, which you can take to any one of the exits described by Chuchubob for the NJ Pike.
A few days ago I was looking for some Philly transit expertise and there were no Phillians around.
Either they read my post and didn't care to respond or they were not around. If the former is true I apoligise for repeating. If not, I would be greatful for any answers to the questions posted here.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=154498
I've been looking at the photos of the R36 WF cars and noticed that some cars had certain states on the sides and logos with them. Here's what I found:
9440 State of Rhode Island
9744 State of Missouri
9762 State of Vermont
9766 State of Kansas
Were there others? Does anyone have pictures of them? I would like to see more of the R36 cars when they were new. Maybe some transit museum could restore them to "like-new" condition. Modern conveniences (like air conditioning) would most likely be retained, though.
Weren't they all singles? Since there are 50 states and 50 singles.
But apparently, the numbering doesn't work out.
The numbering doesn't work out because there are only 40 singles (one of which, 9306, is now in the Transit Museum).
David
They never did all the states. I think only the ones with some sort of exhibit at the World's Fair got a R-36WF in their name (New Hampshire was another state-designated car, if I remember right).
IIRC Massachusetts was another one...There were not very many. I don't think that NY, the host state had one....IIRC there were only about 10.
There were 6 alltogether:
9440 "Rhode Island"
9658 "Neighborhood Youth Corps"
9744 "state of Missouri"
9748 "Commonwealth of Massachusetts"
9762 "State of Vermont"
9766 "State of Kansas"
Each State had to pay a small fee for this...
Since when was "Neighborhood Youth Corps" a state? I don't see it on any maps! :-)
I wondered about that one myself, but it was on the roster...
I had the darndest time getting on Subtalk for about an hour. Anyone having the same problem? I got an ERROR with the wording that the site might be overcrowded? Is there a problem during the afternoon hours that anyone knows about?
> ERROR with the wording that the site might be overcrowded?
Has it really been so long ago that we discussed this site's overloading problems that you've forgotten? :-)
Although this error doesn't come from my site's software (probably it's from your ISP's cache/proxy server), at times the server is so busy it will appear to be unresponsive. If your ISP/software doesn't wait long enough there's nothing I can do about it.
-Dave
Dave: I will just have to pick times when the line isn't overloaded. I never have trouble on getting on line at home. But I have to tell you it gets frustrating when you're anxious to get on subtalk and that crappy error appears. But I'll just be more flexible. Thanks for g etting back to me.
That happens to me a lot but at all times during the day. Funny though, it only happens when I'm on AOL. On earthlink, I get through every time(Yes, I have 2 ISP's- I HATE AOL but my wife swears by it).
Anybody know what's going on? It's not just one or two. There were a bunch of them heading northbound. I counted 4 between 59 St. and 20th Ave. The R-40Ms were still signed from Bay Parkway to Metropolitan Ave. Were the trains put in a different yard or something?
Hmmmm, a West End line forced to be rerouted elsewhere at 4 PM? Without even knowing any more, I can safely bet that some police situation involving punk high schoolers at Bay 50th St was the cause.
Thee is a general order on the West End. The B is going express from Bay 50 St to Ninth ave from 10 a.m until 6 p.m. As a result, M put-ins from the yard have to run light(non revenue service) to 36 St via the Sea Beach. Please don't ask me why they run light, I don't know. One correction; from 10 a.m until about 2 p.m., B service runs normal to 62st. At 62st, another train operator boards the south motor and pulls in into the middle south of 62st. The regular operator takes over and operates express to Ninth ave. This is all due to the ongoing signal project.
I was thinking about trying out the B express run on the West End Manhattan bound. But is it worth it? Usually any express with Hippos (and work in the area) will not be much quicker than a local.
When the work is being done, it's on the track that is out of service at a particular time. There are no caution flags to deal with because of those barriers that are in place between the local and express tracks. There are only two areas with timers: first north of 20 ave and near Ninth ave. It's still a pretty good run.
And wouldn't it be nice to see the Sea Beach run on the Sea Beach express tracks once in a while, at least a few of the trains? Just thinking out loud.
Yeah it would. Why not put Ms on the local tracks and Ns on the express for awhile? If ridership needed to be increased Kings HWY could be rebuilt as double-island platforms...
Are you sure there's enough room?
Thanks Spunky, you're a gentleman and a scholar, and at least one guy on this site who knows what's what.
Sea beach express track
The former southbound express track has been abandoned fron 8th Ave to Kings Highway.
Thanks for ruining part of my evening. But you are right. I have seen the express tracks used from Coney Island north but never from 8th Ave south.
About 18 Years ago, I took a Slow Beach from Manhatten to CI. It did run Express toward CI from 8th Ave, Non Stop and switched over to the local track at Kings Hwy.
Trains can still run on the single express track in peak direction rush hours.
Don t think too hard, you will get a headache
Don't sleep on those Japanese Hippos, they move a hell of a lot faster than those damn French Hippos!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
"Don't sleep on those Japanese Hippos"
Wasn't that the title of a Petula Clark song back in the 1960s? :-)
09/27/2000
[Wasn't that the title of a Petula Clark song back in the 1960s? :-)
"Don't sleep in the subways" Petula Clark
Released 6/17/67 on Warner Brothers #7049
Charted 7 weeks, reached #5 on the charts.
I guess that title means more today than back in '67 !
Bill "Newkirk"
I would have been a bit more dificult
How much is a hell of a lot?:-)
I can definately say from seeing with my own two eyes, See the Jap Hip (R-68A) hit 48 MPH on the CPW Express, while the most I've ever seen a French Hip (R-68) do 39 MPH on the CPW Express. Well Actually I've seen the French Boy do 46 MPH but that was with the help of the hill of the Lexington tube on the (N) line, But the R68A did it on a straightaway.
Trevor Logan
I'd have to see it to believe it. It wasn't on that downhill run going northbound between 103rd and 110th Sts. was it?
Nope it was heading southbound between 103rd and 86th where it crested at 48 MPH!
Trevor Logan
Now that you mention it, southbound CPW expresses have historically attained decent speeds. I was on a southbound train of R-38s a few years back which was really moving. Of course, I immediately think of the northbound run approaching 81st St. because this was where an express would reach full speed, and customers waiting on the station platform got an earful.
A General Order on the West End puts in all PM "M" put in's lite from Coney ISland Yard over the Sea Beach and 4th Avenue to 36th Street where they enter customer service. Between 10 and 4 northbound "B"'s make a reverse move from D2 to D3/4 track at 62nd Street then continue north express up D3/4 to north of 9th Avenue. After 4 PM everything runs express northbound over the West End, I should say from 4 to 6 PM. The reason, this was done was to be able to pick up the kids at New Utrecht High School and take them home instead of backriding.
I thought the G.O. that I read on the MTA website stated that the B will run express from Bay Parkway not 62nd st. Why would it be switching from the local track to express at that point?
Also if a reverse move is involved that sounds like a time consuming delay.
Well it will be interesting whenever I get the chance (hopefully soon) to check the West End express out.
Doing reverse moves like this is not at all uncommon. The 2/5 is subject to moves like this when construction takes effect on the soutbound or northbound tracks in the area of 149th Street. A downtown 2 would pull into Jackson Av, another operator comes aboard and pulls the train north bound into the middle at Prospect Av. The train then proceeds onto the uptown track thru 149th St 3rd Av before returning on the normal route. It's not unusual at all. I guess that the bigwigs are trying to to run service with the littlest inconvenience. I suppose a Bay Parkway to 9th Av express on the B run would make more sense but why do that, if all u have to do is pull a train back a short distance?
I do find it interesting that this kind of operation would be done on a weekday. Sounds like something they should do on a given weekend. Maybe I'll go and check it out tomorrow.
-Stef
The thing that confuses me was I checked the MTA website again today and it said B trains ran express from Bay Pkwy to 9 ave from 10am to 6pm, stopping at 62nd. Must be a mistake then. But it should be corrected because alot of other people will be confused (as usual when there's a G.O.).
Earler this year there was a reverse move and wrong-railing being done on the Queens IND (weekend). Fs would pull into Continental on the normal track (D3), reverse into D4, and proceed down D4 to Roosevelt where they switch to D3 again. Because of no signals, only one train was allowed between Continental and Roosevelt at a time. (At Continental it was strange pulling up next to the train you missed). Going the other way Fs ran nonstop on D2 (Local), and shuttle buses were used for the local stops. No R in Queens, no E bet. Briarwood and Roosevelt.
Years ago, there were two sets of double crossovers south of 62nd St. on the West End, equivalent to the two sets that still exist south of Bay Parkway. Why the MTA reduced the northbound 62nd St. double crossover so as to eliminate the local-to-express (direct) northbound move I don't know. I think the southbound double crossover south of 62nd St. still exists.
Does anyone know why this "asymmetrical" switch situation was done in the first place? Seems to me that what is now happening calls for the MTA to re-establish the northbound double crossover south of 62nd St.
Mike Rothenberg
The other night while watching a learning channel show on speed records they showed the history of French rail speed records starting the 1950's through the 90's.
My question is, on the operator console I always see a a steering wheel type device the engineer is using to operate the train. What is this wheel and why does it seem that the French only use this system on their trains?
Its the throttle and it is used by some other europian nations like Switzerland and Austria, I think. Or they may just not fully under the concept of a Railway.
Believe me I think the French understand railway technology. The TGVs are nothing short of amazing, when you see one blow by at 180-200 mph.
-Dave
I know, it was a JOKE and I've ridden them.
>> Its the throttle <<<
Assuming that it is the throttle, and that it has some kind of dead man feature which requires constant pressure in either a clockwise or anticlockwise direction, it would be ergonomicly superior to a straight lever because it will allow the train operator to change the direction of the pressure from time to time by changing the position of his hands on the wheel he holds.
Tom
The TGV wouldn't have that kind of deadman. What if the driver accidently lets go at 182 mph? Europian trains use a constant pressure pedal or an intermittant alearter. Also the TGV lines are cab signaled with that associated driver aleartness feature.
>>> What if the driver accidently lets go at 182 mph? Europian trains use a constant pressure pedal or an intermittant alearter. Also the TGV lines are cab signaled with that associated driver aleartness feature. <<<
Please explain your post more thoroughly. It was you who indicated that the wheel was a throttle. If the driver lets go at 182 mph, I would assume the train would slow down and if the driver does not once again apply throttle pressure the train will stop. Presumably the amount of braking would be consistent with smooth deceleration. What would a constant pressure pedal do? What is an intermittent alearter? What does it do? And if a driver is incapacitated with a heart attack, what does cab signaling do?
Tom
If you release the throttle in a subway train it goes BIE. If the TGV went BIE at 182 1) the ppl inside would get pitched around and 2) every wheel would have a huge flatspot. In the UK the driver is free to let go of the throttle and dance around the cab, but every minute or when a train passes a restrictive signal (UK dose not use cab signaling, its a intermittant warning system) he must acknowledge a warning. If not the train goes BIE. The TGV probably uses something similar or the Amtrak system that sences ANY control activity (like the horn or the throttle) in lieu of a timed aleartness horn.
Actually, they have gone BIE at 182, hell, they've DERAILED* at that speed. And no, the passengers don't get tossed and it doesn't cause flatspots. Braking systems provide more braking ability when the wheels are spinning than locked, and I can't imagine the TGV doesn't have any kind of antislip system. They do have impressively large disc brakes on them. In fact, I don't think they have any tread brakes at all.
*Yes, they have derailed at those speeds. Thanks to articulation, they stay upright, and intact, until they stop. BTW, there are infact crash standards for the TGV, and they're very specific on how much energy needs to be absorbed durring impact, etc.
Hmmmm, TGVs use steering wheels as throttles. It's certainly unusual, but it might have advantages. It might be useful on curves, even though TGV-only lines tend to be fairly straight. Maybe French engineers find it more comfortable.
Those TGV style trains are the best! Having ridden Eurostar and Thalys trains more times than I can count, I can firmly say that there is nothing that gives me a "rush" like being on a train doing almost 200 mph! It puts Amtrak to shame. I can only hope that the Acela trains are able to do a fraction of what European trains can do.
[I can only hope that the Acela trains are able to do a fraction of what European trains can do.]
Amtrak's Metroliner Service already does a fraction of what European trains can do (speaking of speed).
No, a real rush it going 90 mph on jointed rail on the Harrisburg line. It feels like the train is about to hop the tracks.
That's not a rush, that's fear! :)
That's not a rush, that's fear! :)
I thought they could be the same. On a TGV you don't even know your moving. I want my train ride to be interactive. Like standing in the rear vestabule and being thrown into the walls as you round the horseshoe curve.
Amtrak's Acela train hit 168 mph on a test run. However it is being restricted to 150 in regular service.
[Amtrak's Acela train hit 168 mph on a test run. However it is being restricted to 150 in regular service.]
Where? On the test track in Colorado? I heard that the catenary on the corridor had trouble with 150 mph.
Metroliners tested out at 164 on the corridor w/o any trouble in the PRR days. And those US DoT Silverliners went up to 156. God, if a Silverliner can hit 156, anything can!
I understand thet top speed of Eurostar is 300kph which is 186mph. It's great fun isn't it.
Simon
Swindon Uk
Fun? It's a blast! Especially in first class!
I have to make do with the cheap seats:)
Simon
Swindon UK
Why doesn't the Broad-Ridge Spur run thru to Fern Rock at all times? It is most inconvienent for it to terminate at Olney, just one stop short of the terminus especially when Fern Rock is a loop and I couldn't see any layover issues when I was there 2 years ago.
It might be due to capacity at Fern Rock where there are only two tracks and one platform. During rush hours, this would hold true. And the Broad Ridge Spur does not seem to have a decent amount of ridership (trains are only two cars long). So it usually gets lower priority than the main line trains.
The spur used to terminate at Girard in the off peak which forced some tricky schedule maneuvers, since the crossover it used is on the express tracks north of Girard. Thus, the trains had to arrive on the express track from Ridge at Girard, usually just after an express came through, then proceed to the crossover and follow a southbound express back to Girard, where it would load up and move out. The schedule had planned for meets between locals and spur trains but then again the surgical nature of the schedule did not permit it. A thought was to wrong-rail on the southbound express track, to avoid the crossover, but this was even tighter.
The 2-track layout at Fern Rock limits capacity greatly and the changes effected during Railworks several years ago resulted in trains looping around the complex rather than stub-ending at the station. In off peak operation the addition of the spurs shouldn't affect much at Fern Rock but there is an otherwise unused turnback facility at Olney that could handle the spurs. When the express service first started in the early 80's it used the Olney turnback for much the same reason, and only was extended to Fern Rock due to the heavy transfers at Olney (already a major boarding point) from locals to expresses. It might make more sense to turn the spurs at Erie in off peak but operation to Olney is one way to increase service on the express.
I have just heard on NY1 news that the TA will wait until all of the new trains are in passenger service to make the switch with 2 and 5 trains.(2 will go express and the 5 from Dyre will go local during rush hours).
That's the way it should be and it should have been this way from the beginning. With all the stops it has, the 2 really needs to be sped up in the Bronx and that damn Jeff Klein better not get in the way of it again.
That's the way it should be and it should have been this way from the beginning. With all the stops it has, the 2 really needs to be sped up in the Bronx and that damn Jeff Klein better not get in the way of making this sevice improvement again.
With all the talk about next year's changes, no one has announced the car assignments. But it is not that hard to figure out, since the there will be certain restrictions with the route identifiers proposed:
The R-68's are the only cars that have "‹Q›", so the express will be restricted to those cars.
The 68's have only "‹Q›", and no "W" so those cars will be barred from the Brighton local "(Q)" and West End.
The West End needs newer cars for OPTO service, but it's unlikely they'll pull R-44, 46, or 143's from the other lines (and it can't use the 68's for the reason above), so it will be restricted to 68A's.
(Other cars could still run a fw trips on the line as they do now).
So the full assignment might look like this:
Concourse (B/D) all the R-40m's plua whatever number of 42's need to run the lines.
L, M (ENY/FP/Canarsie) R-42's, & 143's. If the 143's are not in yet, they'll shorten some of the eastern div. trains (but probably not on the L)
Coney Island
N 264 R-68
‹Q› 160 R-68
(Q) most R-40 slant
W 200 R-68 A
V Coney Island R-32's will be transferred to Jamaica
This may be off a bit, and the N might have some R-68A spillover (like now), and the V will probably get spillover from other lines as well (some R-40's perhaps). Perhaps there would be less 68's on the N and more on the ‹Q›.
Of course, all of this is subject to change, pending the final proposal and pick.
It isn't that hard to change the roll signs but the TA is probably too lazy to do it anyway. Why can't they make Brighton Local the (Q) and the Brighton Express the (T) or something like that? Two Q trains is going to be confusing for the average New Yorker since they are too lazy to look at the signs. I can't wait until SubTalk is pelted with posts saying "I was on the southbound Brighton Express this afternoon and as we passed through Beverly Road, a passenger started cursing and saying how that paticular Q should have been making local stops and started to cause a commotion."
I agree. )The T should be the West End, however, and use the W for Brighton. (or why not a "U" if they get new signs). Just change the signs on the R-68's which have outdated signs anyway, and the car asignment would be: the T and U would share all the R-68's, then the Q (exp.) would have the 40's, and this way those cars wouldn't be running 24/7 (a problem I realized in the first post). The N would get the 68A's.
Forget transit history for a minute. You have to change the designations from what they were in the past or else you will run out of designations. Also, New Yorkers need to realize there is nothing wrong with the "P" train so we can use that as well.
True, but they might as well use T, because the R-68's needs new signs, "W" is the only unused Broadway colored letter on the current signs on other cars, and "T" is already programmed in the R-44/46 electronic destinations as West End (So someone in the TA has been thinking of history!)
Well, if that twin Q plan holds up, then the signs will most likely be changed to accomodate the two Q's. If this plan goes into effect like this, I predict that the TA will get roasted by the Brighton Line passengers and the politicians. Confusion will reign supreme. Its not the same as the 7. Those people are used to it and its been like that for decades. And you can't compare it to the 5 cause all the 5's go express during the rush. They could use the yellow D for one of the services(probably local). Or they could use the R32 equipment whose bottom roll signs have every letter in the alphabet and the TA could pick any letter they want. Then again the TA will probably use two Q's. Logic has never been one of Jay Street's strong points.
>If this plan goes into effect like this, I predict that the TA will get roasted by the Brighton Line passengers and the politicians. Confusion will reign supreme. Its not the same as the 7. Those people are used to it and its been like that for decades.
They could use the yellow D for one of the services(probably local).
That's just what I'm afraid of. Them seeing it won't work, and then just putting the D back. (a stupid arrangement of parellel, disconnected routes). So they should just get the new signs. They did it for #9 service.
You could always bring the M back to Brighton!!
Maybe that's what should be done. There would be no confusion with the M replacing the D.
I'VE have said for the longest,and ill say it again, one of the Nassau st train should be sent down the Brighton line. While I wuldnt use the''M'' myself,a Jamaica to Coney Island run would be a very long run for an operator to endure without express service.
It goes to Metropolitan Avenue, not Jamacia. Maybe, it could be every other train goes to Queens from Brooklyn. The other trains terminate at Chambers Street.
>It goes to Metropolitan Avenue, not Jamaica...
He's saying they should send the J down the Brighton. In fact, this was provided for on the R32-38 signs.
But they can't make any Nassau train the primary Brighton local at this time. Not only are the trains shorter, but as was mentioned in other threads, the TA doesn't want to send any of the Brighton trains through the tunnel now. (even on Broadway). So this seems to be out of the question.
What you may have in 4 years when the Bridge is completely finished is the J or M on the Brighton as the rush hour special, and the Q or D as the primary local. (reversing roles from before when the Q[B] was the rush hour special. (The Brighton J on the 32/38's is diamond)
I agree totally with the idea (that when the bridge is fully restored), three Brighton trains, the Q, D, and a supplementary Nassau St. rush hour service.
I doubt if we'll ever see the bridge fully open to subway trains again.
A pox on all nay sayers!!!!!
That's why it should be the M and not the J. The M has only seven stops before it joins with the J at Myrtle Avenue. The M from Metropolitan to Coney Island is a much shorter run than the J from Jamaica was.
Guys,
As a West End rider, I like the M on this line. It helps relieve major crunches on the "B" train during rush hours. For the Brighton guys, maybe it's time to bring back the QJ?
JDL
Nassau St service on the Brighton is a complete waste of time outside of limited rush hour service. With only 2 bridge tracks in use, the M should be completely cut back to Chambers St, allowing extra N and R service.
#9 was always on the R-62/a rollsigns. They just didn't use it until necessary. I'm not sure about Z, but I think it was there even on the first rollsigns after GOH.
When 9 service began, I remember that the signs looked new, even when on #1. (They were almost magenta, where before, they looked a bit yellowed.) And it was after this time, I began hearing about #'s 8 and 10 & up.
I did see a "Z" on an R-40 right after rebuilding (and before it started running).
Why wouldn't it work on the Brighton line? It works on the #6 line just fine.
--Mark
But the 6 express is like the 7 express except that it continues to Pelham Bay while 6 locals end at Parkchester. Both the 6 and 7 expresses are peak-direction-only services. The Q operates express in both directions because the Brighton Line has four tracks while the Pelham Bay and Flushing Lines only have three. And some people do get confused by the 6 and 7 services.
Having a Q local and Q express on Brighton will cause a lot of confusion, especially if personnel sign up the trains wrong. Back in 1995, when both sides of the bridge were shut down and the Q was the only Brighton line, express service was suspended. Better to have a different letter as the local train.
I've seen (9) in the middle of the day when it doesn't run. A lazy train crew will confuse passengers. While if a train signed /Q\
\_/ goes down the local track, there isn't much of a problem but if a train signed (Q) goes down the express, it will be a big problem.
Use < for < and > for >
Since it's obvious that you don't know how to put in those characters.
How about using the "P" that appears on some of the roll signs. It fits in well with the N-Q-R-W theme, it's reminiscent of the letter D, and conductors could tell passengers to "take a P against the wall."
Very funny. That's a good one.
I wonder if there was ever any confusion in the good old days when Triplex trains on the Brighton line carried #1 signs whether they were running local or express.
Steve: The triplexes (as well as all the Rs through the R40s) had "EXP" or "LOC" lit at the front ends. So it would not be a fair comparison. BTW, thanks for the details concerning the signage of the R27/30s during the mid-60s. I started riding in September '65, about two months after you. So I too missed the triplexes completely.
-- Harry (Q Brightliner)
Where were those signs located on the Triplexes? I didn't notice anything like that on 6095 at the Transit Museum. Just curious.
Had fate been kinder, I would have lucked out and caught a Triplex train back in 1965, as they were still running during our visit. We just didn't see them - probably because we didn't take the subway during rush hours, and the West End express didn't operate durng middays. My father's cousin lived on 71st St. just off New Utrecht Ave., and while visiting him one evening, I couldn't help but hear all those trains rumbling by. I wouldn't be at all surprised if most of them were Triplexes.
Steve: Take my word for it. There was nothing like the Triplex. They were big and powerful and they could really pick up speed. When I was a kid they ran only on the Sea and Brighton Beach lines, but in the early 60's I'm told the West End went from B Standards to the TP. Before that the West End used standards exclusively.
Fred, I saw some triplex used on the West End in the early mid 50s during rush hours
I'm glad someome has been able to confirm this. It seems no one was able to say for sure if the Triplexes were ever used on the West End prior to the 1960s. The only photos I've seen were from the 1963-1965 period except for one pic in Subway Cars of the BMT of a brand new Triplex with a 3 sign.
I kick myself now for blowing a golden opportunity to ride on them literally during their final days.
Thanks Bob, I didn't know that. I moved out in '54 and never saw such a sight. You see, you can be positive and helpful at times. BTW, I used to see #4 trains from my window at the Queensbridge Apartments and I always wondered if the Sea Beach was extended past 42nd Street at certain times of the day. I never could see them close up. When I was outside where the train left the tunnel I only saw #1's and B Standards. No one has ever been able to tell me if Sea Beach trains were sometimes diverted past 42nd Street (their terminal) and extended into Queens. But I used to thrill when I saw those #4's, but never closeup.
I would say run the Hippos on the West End-Montague route (the W is it?) The idea is
R U B I T I N
U
B
I
T
I
N
The northern terminus for Sea Beach trains was extended to 57th St. in 1957. AFAIK, they didn't officially begin operating to Queens until 1976, when the EE was dropped.
I thought they and the West End were extended earlier to 57th then in 57,I thought around 55, when they ran the Brighton Local extension in LIC to connect with the E-F-GG to Forest Hills.
If anyone would know for sure, it would be Larry, Redbird R-33.
You are correct, Steve; no N train ever set foot in Queens before 1976, when it replaced the EE.
wayne
The really screwy part was the reverse-peak direction local service pattern along Broadway.
Does anybody know where I can get train schedules from?
MTA Website.
If you go to Jay st. you can get the schedules for all the subway lines
The only useful purpose for those schedules is for midnight service. Otherwise like crazy said, you can go to Jay St. for them or you can pick them up from certain spots throughout the system if Jay St. is too much of a jaunt. Maybe the museum store at GCT might have some.
The only transit schedules I've ever seen at the TMGS-GCT are M60 bus schedules.
The MTA website has Subway and Bus schedules. One link is www.lirr.org (this one I use instead of remembering the mta.nyc.dot.dot thing).
There's also mnr.org and mtahq.org
Sorry to keep nagging everybody, but does anybody know when the next subtalk field trip is?
Did you check Upcoming Events on top of the index?
Yes.
Yes. But nothing was there about it.
So that means that no trips are planned.
[So that means that no trips are planned ?]
Well, as I said in my reply yesterday ... "planned" = no,
but "being planned/thought about" = yes
Also, the association events listed are a great place to meet many SubTalkers. Plus the subject matter of the group can be very interesting. I've been to several ERA and one UTC meeting and not regretted going to any of them.
Thanks to our dear friend & host we have all these wonderful choices to make, all of which add to the enjoyment of this hobby.
Thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
09/26/2000
Vernon, did you attend one of our Polo Grounds shuttle walking tours earlier this year ? Now that was a tour to remember, like an urban version of exploring an Egyptian tomb !
Bill "Newkirk"
There aren't any planned right now.
Why not plan one?
-Dave
This may sound boring, but why don't we plan a trip to the Rockaways, just to enjoy the view of Jamaica Bay.
This sounds like a job for Mr. T ;-)
BMTman
"why don't we plan"...
Go ahead Vernon, why don't YOU plan it. Each field trip has a coordinator, why don't you get this one rollinig.
For me, I'm too busy until after the holidays.
Then there is always New York Days!!!
I see... Autumn in NY at Shore Line is a SubTalk Field Trip in itself. So why not go, SubTalkers?
-Stef
You may have noticed that I did the last two "Field Trip" reports.
I don't want to hog that space, so I would realy like to see someone else do one.
A couple are in the planning stages:
- Mark W. will probally do a tour of the Coney Isl. Yard next month
- The BMT Man will probally do his WALK down the Bay Ridge line again
We could make Autumn in NY at Shoreline/Branford a field trip. Just need someone to be the coor. then do the write up with photos. I don't think it should be Doug, Lou or I since we're members of the place. I have fond memories of when I went there as a CUSTOMER. As a subway fan it's a place that you should do at least once, especially when all the RT cars come out. So, I think a report by a customer will be of much more interest to the rest of you.
If you do a after work or week-end trip to the Rockawys I'll come !
After work is getting harder because you would probally need one of the meeting places to be Jay Street at 6 PM (so most of us can come). This will mean that there won't be too much day light left.
Suggestion: Get a couple of friends interested in going, fix a time & route in your mind, then post it here. If no one else comes you'll have a good time, but if some others show up, it will be even better. My 3 boro trip from Main Street to Coney Island turned out just that way, i.e. some new & old friends showed up in addition to who I expected and we had a great time, including some unexpected treats (the work train that we saw as we were leaving CI).
Traveling the subways can be fun. I'm remembering the baker's dozen that went to heypaul's open house/SubTalk 5th Anniversity ... this one included a lot of social contact vs. train riding, so it was very enjoyable in another way.
So, don't sit there on the fence. With a little effort on your part I think the reward you get will be well worth it !!!!!
Mr t__:^)
what about a ny harbor cruise (on the ferry). before it gets too cold.
I've stood on the front of that ferry during a snowstorm. Its never too cold.
I've been interested in a after-work trip on the SIRT for a long time.
I know it's a short line & we would have a long wait at Tottenville (train leaves BEFORE ours arrives), but I've never riden the line and would very much like to.
So, I someone knows enough about the SIRT & ferry schedules to tell us what times would be good I'll be very happy to join the group. The ferry ride will be a treat just by itself.
Also I want to get one of the special Transfers for my collection !
Mr t__:^)
Well we could catch an Great Kills Express train (first Stop Great Kills) during rush hour. The schedule is at the MTA sight with the corresponding Ferry times listed.
I would be up for that, I lived on Staten Island Tottenville HS class of 1986. Heck that is the way I got to high school, via SIRT.
After the holidays I might take on the trip.
Sounds like the beginings of a plan ...
"Lou from Brooklyn goes back to SI", a Field Trip. Maybe we can get Hank E. to join us, and of course the BMTman will be there to ride the R-44s.
Who else is up for this land & sea ride ?
I would be happy to repeat the Red Bird tour, i.e. Main Street to South Ferry ... we'll pick cars with railfan windows of course, and only make a couple of stops along the way. Tentitively I would start at 4 PM at Main Street which would get me to South Ferry about 5:30. (if we time it right Lou could do the tour all the way from Main Street)
Remember, only those with "Fun Passes" will be allowed at the railfan window !
Timing we're talking about early October ... Friday the 13th ?
Mr t__:^)
About a year ago a created a site where I put a bunch of links to live webcams on it. None of the cams are mine, they are just links I found on the web) The site is at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html Since I am a railfan I tried to include any cam I found with transit in it. You are welcome to check out the site. Here are some links on it you should click onto for transit cams:Zurich, Switzerland-when you get there click onto "Central" to see lots of streetcar/trams. Rapperswil, Switzerland-click onto railroad station, theres always a couple of electric trains there. Poland-there are trolleys on both webcam sites, Warsaw and Krakow Links to live Railroad Cams has alot of good railroad camsLIE Willis Av exit link has the overpass in background of the Oyster Bay Line crossing the LIE but you gotta be extremely lucky to click when a train is going past.The Dublin cam usually has buses parked-its probably a layover site.Again the site is at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html Some sites reload themselves every so often, others you have to keep reloading. Also the European cams are best seen in the US late at night after midnight when it is daytime in Europe.
Jeff, thanks for the link.
I watched the Times Square one for a while, boy the buses were moving slow ;-)
Mr t
Observant SubTalkers will note that I have a generally choleric outlook toward life in general and New York in particular. And let me tell you, maintaining this sort of 'tude takes more effort than you might imagine. It's not easy coming up with new invectives to hurl at Upper West Side limousine liberals, Hillary, suit-covered anuses and conforming nonconformists (I'd add profiteering non-profits to the list, but that's not my expression. Dang.)
I point this out because the following observations may be colored by my normal outlook. But maybe not. I am speaking of those "Cow Parade" statues, a few of which are still around. When they first went up, they were fun to look at and really added something to the city's character. Unfortunately, they grew old, so to speak, very quickly. Their "shelf life" resembled that of unrefrigerated raw fish during a Mississippi Delta heat wave. In short, the exhibition should have been limited to no more than a couple of weeks.
Is it just me, or does anyone else share that view?
Yes, I thought they were only going to be around for the summer months, but I see they are still "grazing" all over town. A few of them have been "bombed" by former subway graffiti (tagging) artists and one near the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge walkway in Cadman Plaza Park has a stenciled image of Rudy G. as Adolph Hitler (on the concrete base), while still another on Tillary Street has had some glued on items removed by other "cattle critics".
So, yes, I agree that the fiberglass bovine invasion on New York City has worn out it's welcome and needs to mooooove on (sorry, pun intended).
BTW, a local Brooklyn Heights shop has a number of these cows for sale ala beanie babies (small version) and stuffed dolls (larger, pillow-like version). I bought the stuffed "Broadway Cow" for the wife.
What an udderly ridiculous exhibit! :-)
BMTman
They're being collected, but seemingly at the same slow pace at which they were rolled out. The exhibition officially ended Labor Day weekend, it was indeed intended to be a limited-time sort of thing. No one really expected the cows to withstand NYC for more than a few months.
I hear there are (or were) potatoes on display in Providence, RI, and cod in Boston, MA...?
That's right, I just heard on the news Wendy's won't be re-opening in Flushing. That's right, this bustling, multi-cultural terminus of the number 7 line and many bus lines won't have a place to get a decent hamburger with a glass of water (BK and McDonald's only sell bottled water).
Man this sucks. They should at least re-open in another location. Sure makes you think Wendy's is buying the stigma that minority areas are "BAD" areas to do business.
They aren't in Chinatown either.(busy Canal street has Mcdonalds and Burger King) Thinking about it, Wendy's isn't in minority areas such as Freeport, Hempstead,etc. Both have McDonald's and Burger King. At least Mcdonalds and BK do business in minority areas. Wendy's has a very poor record in urban environments, and real lack of presence in the urban market. Thinking about alot of subway terminals in Queens, like Flushing, Jamaica-179th, Ditmars Blvd, there are no Wendy's nearby but BK and McDonald's.
I'm pretty mad about it, because once again the bigotry and narrow-mindedness of a company (Wendy's) gives minorities and transit dependent people less of a choice.
It's scary how much bigotry there is around, even today.
That's right, I just heard on the news Wendy's won't be re-opening in Flushing. That's right, this bustling, multi-cultural terminus of the number 7 line and many bus lines won't have a place to get a decent hamburger with a glass of water (BK and McDonald's only sell bottled water). Man this sucks. They should at least re-open in another location. Sure makes you think Wendy's is buying the stigma that minority areas are "BAD" areas to do business.
They aren't in Chinatown either.(busy Canal street has Mcdonalds and Burger King) Thinking about it, Wendy's isn't in minority areas such as Freeport, Hempstead,etc. Both have McDonald's and Burger King. At least Mcdonalds and BK do business in minority areas. Wendy's has a very poor record in urban environments, and real lack of presence in the urban market. Thinking about alot of subway terminals in Queens, like Flushing, Jamaica-179th, Ditmars Blvd, there are no Wendy's nearby but BK and McDonald's.
I'm pretty mad about it, because once again the bigotry and narrow-mindedness of a company (Wendy's) gives minorities and transit dependent people less of a choice.
It's scary how much bigotry there is around, even today.
Before jumping to any conclusions ...
Keep in mind that Wendy's doesn't seem to have as many outlets as do McDonald's or Burger King. It should not be surprising that there are some areas - both minority and otherwise - that lack a Wendy's but have McD and BK. You can't conclude that Wendy's is reluctant to enter minority areas unless and until you also look at a representative sample of white areas and see whether those places are similarly "deprived." Out where I am in Suffolk County, in the Medford/Farmingville area (a mainly if not entirely white area), there are two McD's and BK's along the routes 83 and 112 corridors, but only one Wendy's. Racism is obviously not the reason. It's far more likely due to the simple fact that Wendy's is a somewhat smaller chain.
Where things might get more complex is if you can show that Wendy's avoids urban areas in general. That could be due to racism, but more likely because the company finds urban areas too costly or otherwise complicated in which to do business. Wal*Mart is a case in point; they have strong small town/suburban roots and avoid urban locations, but there's never been the slightest hint that the company is racist in any way.
Which brings up what's arguably the most important point of all. If Wendy's in fact did have some unwritten anti-minority policy, we'd surely know about it, without having to conjecture based on store locations. Consider how racism claims have bedeviled Denny's restaurants and Adam's Mark hotels, or how anti-gay claims have been leveled against Cracker Barrel restaurants. Rumors of this sort spring from the slightest of sources and spread like wildfire. Wendy's surely wouldn't be exempt if it were racist.
Finally, while I suppose the permanent closing of the Flushing outlet is a slight inconvenience to some, it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. Reopening the store would almost be a sort of dishonor to the dead.
Good points there Peter.
And more to the point -- the people in that area might now go to a "real" restaurant and get much more healthy foods and certainly a better variety of foods on the menu.
I for one feel that there's too damn many of these fast food joints as it is. Loss of one of them ain't no big thing.
BMTman
I can't stand fast food either. Wendy's is the only fast food place I can eat in without getting an upset stomach. It's also the cheapest and best buy.
Perhaps the chinese resteruants in Flushing aren't as expensive as I might think. I prefer chinese food over american cuisine anyway.
I just hope Wendy's won't be another Caldor, and that it won't sit vacant for too long. Hopefully the spot will get torn up and something new (probably a chinese business) will come.
Also Starbucks (which can be identified with yuppies) doesn't have the same ignorance Wendy's does and opened up a pretty fancy location on Main street just south of the RR station.
I'd just like to see more mainstream establishments come to Flushing, since it's probably one of the busier transit hubs in the city.
I for one feel that there's too damn many of these fast food joints as it is. Loss of one of them ain't no big thing.
Not to mention the fact that Wendy's is way overpriced for what you get.
Well for me they aren't. I'm not a big eater though.
I usually a order a hamburger (.89), 5 pc chicken nuggets (.99) and Biggie fries (.99) plus water (free). That's about a $3 meal for me.
In McDonald's, they chicken nuggets are almost $2, large fries $1.50, hamburger .89 plus now they charge $1.30 for a water bottle.
That's over $5 and I think the food tastes horrible. BK is the most expensive. I think Wendy's is the cheapest, at least for a small eater like me who chooses to drink water and not bloat up on soda.
Not to mention the fact that Wendy's is way overpriced for what you get.
Matter of opinion, Peter... we're chicken eaters, not real big on burgers, and the chicken sandwiches and pitas are far better than anything McD's and BK have to offer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well it might not be racism, it is strictly circumstantial. But I do think Wendy's shys away from urban locations. Even in Manhattan, I can't think of any Wendy's downtown (near the WTC) or around Union Square, which are rather busy places in the city.
Wendy's don't seem to be to common in the city, are are largely outnumbered by McDonald's and Burger King.
However here on LI, while Wendy's is still less common than McDonald's, the difference is smaller.
In general Wendy's, like Kohl's, Target, and Walmart, just don't feel they can be suitable for urban areas. But they can adapt. And they should. By not adapting, they give people in urban areas a raw deal, as they do not have the variety of choices as people in the suburbs.
This is unfair.
It suprises me Flushing has no movie theater, only ones that gear to wealthier more suburban areas of Queens in College Point and Whitestone.
A movie theater could come where Caldor was, plus a new food court (with Wendy's among other things). But unfortunately developers are missing opportunity because they are narrow minded and ignorant.
And the core of my anger has to do with access by mass transit. Urban downtowns are easily accessible by bus routes or subway, but suburban type strip malls are harder to access by transit, and as a result gear to mainly car drivers.
It gets me angry that these companies and developers feel that people who use mass transit aren't as profitable as car drivers. It is discrimination.
>>>...or around Union Square, ...
There is a Wendys at Union Square. Right next to Bradlees.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is also one on 7th Ave. across from Madison Square Garden.
Yeah, I forgot about that one (and I work right across the street 8-0)
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess I've got hang around Union Square more often!! My mistake.
>>>...or around Union Square, ...
There is a Wendys at Union Square. Right next to Bradlees.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is also one on 7th Ave. across from Madison Square Garden.
Yeah, I forgot about that one (and I work right across the street 8-0)
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess I've got hang around Union Square more often!! My mistake.
>>>But I do think Wendy's shys away from urban locations. <<<
If this was the case they never would of opened the Flushing location to begin with.
Peace,
ANDEE
It suprises me Flushing has no movie theater, only ones that gear to wealthier more suburban areas of Queens in College Point and
Whitestone.
A movie theater could come where Caldor was, plus a new food court (with Wendy's among other things). But unfortunately developers are missing opportunity because they are narrow minded and ignorant.
I don't know if the old Caldor's building is physically suitable for conversion into movie theaters, or if zoning would allow that, but it's largely irrelevant in any instance. While it hasn't gotten a great deal of media attention except in the business press, the movie theater industry is in very bad condition. Two of the eight or so companies that dominate the industry, Carmike and (IIRC) United Artists Theaters, are operating under bankruptcy protection, and Regal Cinemas is in danger of joining them. Most of the other companies are also in various states of financial distress.
The main problem is that there simply are too many movie screens throughout the country, given the number of movies available for exhibition. This has led to a shakeout in which only the largest multiplexes - 12+ screens is the rule of thumb - with stadium seating are doing well. Other theaters, and their operating companies, are bad off.
You need to open you eyes some more. There's a Wendy's on 14th Stret, right next to Bradlees. You need to stop assuming that just because some chain or another doesn't have a store in a certain area that it's some sort of racist conspirisy. Fact is that Wendys is a franchise, and a small one at that. Not many of them are company owned. You need to have about 500K to open a store, and you need to meet certain franchisee requirements.
Movie houses with fewer than 10 screens have gone the way of the Drive-in. The reason why there are few screens in urban areas isn't because the chains avoid them, it's pure economics. Small theaters don't make any money. The same goes for stores such as Kmart, Walmart, and Bradless, however, they have adapted their floorplan somewhat successfully to an urban environment. This can't be done effectively for a movie theater, however.
-Hank
-Hank
Kmart has adapted to the urban scene quite well. There's quite a few in the city. But why haven't they taken over Caldor's in Flushing? There aint any other Kmarts near there. I guess because I hear Kmart isn't in great shape.
Why do you assume it's KMart that isn't in great shape as opposed to Flushing. Some stores would find that Flushing isn't a great place to open a new store. With all of the stores out there, if it isn't KMart, it can be somebody else that opens there. However, nobody has. What does that tell you?
There are two Wendy's downtown, one on Nassau St just south of Fulton St, and the other at Water and Beekman just north of Fulton, next to the seaport. Actually, it's a little weird that there are two so close together, but they're probably going after different markets (the one on Nassau is probably aimed at the lunch-time office crowd that shops there, the one near the seaport probably gets more tourists and maybe some of the residents in and around Southbridge).
Wendy's has had a presence on Willoughby Street in downtown Brooklyn for 25 years--almost as urban an environment as you can find.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And there's been a Wendy's on Nostrand by The Junction (right next to Lord's Bakery) for ten years or more. And that area has a large minority presence.
BMTman
In the same line of thought, the McDonalds that was shot up in So Cal. in the 80's was closed and torn down almost immediately.
-Hank
Yep, the one in San Ysidro in 1984.
>>> I just heard on the news Wendy's won't be re-opening in Flushing. <<<
John;
You have to get over your obsession with Wendy's or start posing on a "Fast Food Talk" board.
It is not surprising that you find more Mc Donald's and Burger King outlets. They are larger chains. McDonald's started in 1955 and now has over 26,000 stores (363% more than Wendy's). Burger King started in 1954 and has 11,188 stores (99% more than Wendy's). Wendy's started in 1969 and has 5,621 stores.
Wendy's has not entered into a sinister conspiracy to deprive you of its food.
Tom
Well, with less fast food places around at least there will be less clogged arteries and less heart attacks.
Considering most fast food places are franchised out I don't see how you can say Wendy's is racist. If you have the money and are willing to meet the high standards Wendy's seems to set you can open one just about anywhere.
There is a Wendy's at Jamaica Center station(E,J,Z). I've seen Wendy's in many minority shopping areas. Fordham Road by the 4 is one, 161 St. is another (no it's just not for yankee games, they only play at home for 81 days out of the year not including playoffs). One of the main reasons that there aren't as many Wendy's as there are McD/BK's in poor areas is that Wendy's is the most expensive of the three chains.
Besides, minorities are the best customers for fast food places. Even though the prices are rather steep for a good chunk of the minority population who live on a low income, they still flock to those places in droves.
Ah, the heck with fast food. The best spot to eat out in NYC for me is the Oyster Bar in GCT (bring $$$, they aren't cheap). Their NE clam chowder is like heaven in a bowl! Best soup ever made!
A great restaurant (that wasn't cheap -- but had great sunsets) was "Abbraccimento's" out on Jamacia Bay. I say "was" because it closed down, but a new owner has taken over and the name has been changed to "Sunset Landing on the Pier". Same great vistas are available for those "special" dates.
I haven't been there to try a meal yet -- just went there for drinks one night on the bar/lounge-barge that's moored behind the restaurant.
BMTman
I just think that by not re-opening the Wendy's in Flushing they are letting the two gunmen who did the shooting leave a mark, which is what they want. I think the best thing to do is move on and re-open. Cancer killed my Mom in Winthrop University Hosp. in Mineola. Cancer is a murderer just like the two gunmen. But I have to go by Mineola hosp. all the time to take the train and change buses, I can't avoid it. Sure it's sad and depressing but in life when tragedy strikes you should move on, and not let fear win. Flushing and Wendy's have let fear get the better of them by not re-opening the Wendy's. Shame on them.
I'd just betcha if the shooting happened at a Wendy's on LI it would've re-opened there. But because it's Flushing and whenever something bad happens in the city it turns into a memorial, and you have to face it everyday.
For me, it's HARDER to have to pass that close Wendy's being reminded of what happened than if the Wendy's was re-open and things would've returned to normal as they should have.
What's next? Memorials on subway tracks where people have gotten killed?
In my opinion it shows a segment of the population, cannot move forward, which is disturbing. Basically they have allowed those two bastard killers leave a permanent mark on the community. That gives the killers what they want.
By reopening it now it slightly reduces the chances of those 2 murderers getting the death penalty. Wait until they are condemned (by God I hope they do!!!!!!), then the store can be rebuilt.
THat's 2 VERY different things. Cancer can be treated, many are cured. It's also something that doesn't care who, where, or what you are. Hospitals are there for the sick and dying, people expect that sort of thing. No one expects 5 people to be murdered in a restaurant. There's nothing to prevent thhat sort of thing, and there is no treatment.
There's a house a few blocks away from me where no one lives. A guy who was later found mentally incompetant to stand trial shot his entire family, except for a young stepdaughter, who was "the only person who cared about [him]." I sure as hell don't want to live there.
-Hank
I think Wendys has shown themselves to be fine corporate citizens they have been there for the families of the victims since this horrible tradgedy occured, they did not have to be, but they were and that to me speaks volumes.
WENDYS HONORS VICTIMS
Peace,
ANDEE
I regularly see a supvr. that worked in that store & is now back where she started as a counter person in College Point. She doesn't mind that the store won't re-open. (no she wasn't there THAT night)
Mr t__:^)
"bigotry and narrow-mindedness of a company"
Eh? Wendy's closes a location where a massacre occurred and it's due to anti-urbanism and racism?!?
1) When there was a massacre at a Brown's Chicken in **suburban** Chicago (Palatine, to be precise), the location was gutted and used as something totally different. Nobody wanted to go eat chicken there knowing people had died violently there while selling chicken. It had nothing to do with the neighborhood around it. If there was a massacre at a McDonalds in Beverly Hills (no, I'm NOT giving anyone ideas, gods forbid!), I would bet $100 that THAT restaurant would be torn down, or at least not used as a McD's anymore.
2) There are definitely Wendys in urban locations. There's a bunch in downtown Chicago, just from my personal knowledge. AFAIK, no fast-food chain operates only stand-alone drive-up locations, unlike Wal-Mart and some other megastore chains. Every fast food chain I can think of operates storefront locations in downtown Chicago. Every city I've ever been in had a storefront McDonalds somewhere downtown.
3) If Wendy's was anti-urban, they WOULDN'T HAVE LOCATED IN FLUSHING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! (Sorry, but one has to scream when someone else is blatantly ignoring the obvious.)
The same day McDonald's opens an outlet (I can't use the term restaurant) in Beverly Hills is the same day you'll trudge through six-foot snow drifts to get there. Your $100 is safe.
Amtrak ran a gamblers train (F40PH, 8 cars, 285 passengers) from Richmond, Washington and Baltimore to Atlantic City Sunday Sept 24 in conjunction with the Tropicana. It will deadhead from Philly (where it is stored) to Atlantic City early Tuesday morning for a 3:30 PM departure, since train traffic is embargoed between "early morning" (undefined, maybe 6-ish) to 3 something PM for extensive track rehab. Schedules are covered by buses between A.C. and Atco during the embargo.
So while Amtrak was taking gamblers from Philly to Connecticut, it was bringing others from Richmond, DC and Balmr to Atlantic City.
The Amtrak gamblers train returning to Richmond from Atlantic City with stops in Baltimore and Washington roared through Lindenwold at track speed (I'd guess 60, with about 5 grade crossings and the NJT station) at 4:20 this afternoon with F40PH #391 pulling 6 cars.
How is the testing going on the R-142 and R-142A trains? What day are they in?
- Lyle Goldman
The R142A (Kawasaki Boy) is in the mid 20s for it's days, as for the R142 (Bombardier Boy) the amount is unknow.
Trevor Logan
The Bombardier has already passed the 30 day period.
Finally! At last! The curse is dead! My old #2 line is finally going to have a fleet of shiny new cars that it has so long deserved. Let the regular service of the Bombardier R142s begin! I didn't think they would pass the 30-day period this soon. But they have.
i know so too. i've been keeping up with that train since day one when it started all over. the other ones in the shed must be going in for inspection. i don't believe it didn't pass because i was there when it kept running.
Did they really pass all thirty days or as stated earlier that they stopped looking at the clock?
Have a nice day !!
Neither. At this time the R-142 test train is being held in the shop for inspection, as it has the past couple of days.
David
Whats the latest with the R-110As? Will these cars be re#d or will they keep their current #s? I wouldnt mind seeing an R 142/A coming over for showing their faces (testing purposes)
The R-110A will return to revenue service in 2001. It is awaiting a serious overhaul and a new braking system. The R-110A will retain the same look and numbers as the day they were born.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
09/27/2000
[It wish they would paint it white with the blue stripe]
Trevor, didn't you say that those pastel colored seats would be changed as part of the rehab ? Wanna bet the TA will install the same seats that are in the R-142's. It would make sense since the manufacturers of the seats can be rattle off some extras as a special order. Why design something totally different? Gonna miss those banana yellow seats !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought the R-142 got up to Day 18 and had a malfunction in Brooklyn, then went back in for retooling.
oh really? if so, what happened? was it major or minor? i remember it still running. caught it yesterday at timesquare around 7 pm. so it was basically oos and started again quickly on its 30 day test? let me
know. e-mail me with the scoop.
If I remember right, it was a brake line problem that caught it at Day 18, at least according to a message in the archive around the last week of August. I forget who posted it, though.
It went back in service the same day though... I wouldn't put it past the TA to overlook that.
Study find TA escalators are in sorry shape.
MOVING STAIRS DON'T
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>"The whole report is skewered to show negativism while things have actually improved," O'Leary said. "It's mathematical gimmickry."<<<
...and the TA should know about mathematical gimmickry, they invented it. LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Washington’s Metro also has a serious problem with nonfunctioning escalators.
BTW, the Times also has the TA escalator story.
Something strange happened this morning on my way to work, I saw a redbird on the #1 line in PASSENGER SERVICE. Whassup wit dat?
Are you sure it was a #1 train? Depending on the time of day, the 2 makes local stops between 96 and Chambers. If that's where you saw it, that is most likely what it is.
The 2 would also make local stops if there was a train stuck on the express track.
I'm pretty sure it was a #2 train.
I'm pretty sure it was #1 train.
If the signs said 1, then someone must have played around and scrolled them to it, since rebirds can't open their doors at South Ferry any more (and no, pulling up a little more won't help, the doors are spaced differently than on the 62s).
Also, overnight 2s are going via South Ferry up to Wall St. (4,5) and using the 4/5 line to get to Brooklyn, maybe that's what you saw.
Last night at about 5:30 my E was rerouted to 179 due to switch problems at Jam. Center.
And this morning my F ran express all the way from 179th. It was a treat that probably saved me from being too late for work.
:)Andrew
And I got turned back at Continental for the same reason.
In today's Times article concerning the sorry state of subway escalators:
Transit officials said the study reflected only that the newer equipment was more technically complex, requiring additional time to work out bugs after being installed.
Gee, haven't escalators been around for 50 years or so? We ain't talking cutting-edge technology here.
Yeah, they got there ups n' downs.
:-O
50 yrs how about over 100 years...mean while the old wood ones in Macy's still work just fine.....
Not surprised. These are the same people with the least interactive website of any government entity. Office buildings with older escalators manage to keep them running. Old tech baffles them and new tech scares them. Not too encouraging.
(Not surprised. These are the same people with the least interactive website of any government entity. Office buildings with
older escalators manage to keep them running. Old tech baffles them and new tech scares them. Not too encouraging. )
By definition "new" escalators are installed by politically savvy contractors. "Old" escalators are maintained by TA staff. "Getting out the bugs" means having your own people rebuild the things after you are finished getting ripped off.
One difference with the TA is wear and tear. Everything about the subway is going to get more wear than just about anything just about anywhere else. Perhaps the TA's demands would be enough to fry normal escalators.
Perhaps the TA's demands would be enough to fry normal escalators.
Lets be careful. If the TA starts to make specs too demanding, then they may do to the escalator/elevator manufactures what they did to the subway car manufacturers... Put them out of business.
Or the may find out that nobody wants to bid for the contract.
Just an afterthought. If nobody wants to bid, what happens with ADA requirements? The TA can't build them on their own !!!
Well they seem to break down in Roosevelt Field alot!
Yeah, they got there ups n' downs.
Well heck, it would be a vast improvement if subway escalators did go up and down!
That's worth a rim shot.:-)
While we're on this subject, any opposition to bringing back those gum machines to the stations? Those Chiclets and Dentines tasted might good when changing trains and waiting for my Sea Beach at 42nd Street in the days of yore.
I always liked the redskin peanuts myself!
Yes, but they contributed to the black spots on the platforms. Those black spots are dried up, dirtied up flattened old gum. I'd prefer no eating, chewing or drinking (except for pure water in resealable bottles) be allowed in the subway.
Oh, you soilsport. You gotta ruin it for the rest of us. Actually you are too young to remember, but us old warhorses used to flood those machines. They got good use and what came out of them was good.
The statement is accurate, actually. These are new technology escalators, and as such, require a few years of testing and debugging until a new fleet of escalators can be ordered en-masse for installation around the system.
Kudos to the MTA for providing an accurate assessment of the state of escalators! :) :)
--Mark
Here in Los Angeles, at least 25% of the escalators on the Red Line are out of service at any one time. One gripe I have is if one ecalator in a pair HAS to be out of service, then the other should go "up". The brains at MTA haven't even been able to figure that out. I am convinced that subway escaltors exist not for customers, but to provide employment for escalator repair persons.
The brains at MTA
Please do not make ridiculous statements. Thank you.
I don't think this is a ridiculous statement. Here goes. Do these excalators only go in the Manhattan stations, or will they also be placed in the outer boroughs. Somehow I can't conceive escalators being placed at 36th or 59th Street in Brooklyn. And when we get outdoors at New Utrecht Avenue, I can't conceive escalators taking the riders from the Sea Beach to the West End and vise versa? Do any of you?
What do you mean will be placed? The article was about existing escalators.
And yes, there ARE escalators in the subway in the outer boroughs.
Sea Beach Fred: Peter Rosa replied to my statements about excalators in the Los Angeles subway. I used the term "brains at MTA" in sarcasm, referring to the Los Angeles MTA "executive staff". Nowhere was any mention made of New York's outer boroughs. OK?
But he responded to the thread in general as opposed to a specific message. So he just picked the wrong one. Not a big deal.
In the newer transfer passage at Roosevelt, there are 2 narrow escalators, no stairs, and the one that works is always going up.
In the older transfer passage, there are 3 escalators, 2 go up, one goes down. When one is broken, 2 go up, and people going down use the stairs. Standard TA logic. When 2 are broken, one goes up. When all 3 are broken, fights occur as to which escalator people are supposed to walk on to go up or down.
09/27/2000
Speaking of escalators, the rehabbed escalator at Grand Central on the #7 should be nearing completion unless it is running as we speak (type). From what I saw, gone is that gaudy stainless steel wall coverings. Also some sort of ceramic mosaics to brighten it up. Does anyone know if this escalator has been finished ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When I was at the NYTM, I saw #8506, across from #9306. The lights were off, the doors were closed, and was completely desolate. What's up with this car?
Don't worry, I inquired at BusFest and a security guard told me it has a lighting problem. Somebody has to go onto the roadbed and squeeze under the car to repair it.
Yeah. Leave it to Mike Hanna to take care of it....
-Stef
It wish they would paint it white with the blue stripe.
09/27/2000
[It wish they would paint it white with the blue stripe]
S A C R I L I D G E !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why? The blue/white color scheme is quite nice. When it's not covered in grafitti, that is.
09/28/2000
[Why? The blue/white color scheme is quite nice. When it's not covered in grafitti, that is.]
True, but the exterior as well as the interior of #8506 represents this car as delivered. You wouldn't want to see #9306 (WF) painted fox red either.
Bill "Newkirk"
So the color has a name! I just called it "Redbird red."
09/29/2000
[So the color has a name! I just called it "Redbird red."]
Fox Red was the name when the first graffitti free fleet debuted, and the rest as they say is history. This is basically the same red used on the old Philly Broad St. cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
And I say it again. The name SilverFox comes from these cars' SILVER roofs and FOX red sides. This is what they were called before someone got cute and called them "Redbirds."
The name "Redbird" to me is a blasphemy.
10/01/2000
Settle down SilverFox!
Just stating that Fox red was the first name for this color. Don't know who or when the moniker "Redbird" was coined, wasn't me !
Bill "Newkirk"
If I recall correctly, I thought the code name for the original redbirds was "Silver Bullet"...The paint scheme debuted on the Flushing Line in 1985.
No, the "Silver Bullets" were the newly overhauled slant R-40s on the B line. Some of the slant R-40s built with air conditioning, which hadn't gone for overhaul yet, were cleaned up and were called "Silver Bullsh*ts."
David
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!
Noooooooooooooooooooo. Unh-uh. No way, Jose. BUZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!
I remember the olive drab paint on the R-27/30s.
Why do so many people hate this color scheme? Or is it the fact that it represents the low point of the entire system (1970's)?
For me, it's answer No. 2. Bill Ronan and his MTA croneys seemed more concerned with painting or remodeling everything in the system -- all the subway cars, all the BMT local stations, all the TA and MBOSTA buses -- with the blue-and-white MTA color scheme than they were in preventive maintenance or figuring out a way to quick remove the graffiti from the cars, the way David Gunn did in the mid-1980s.
Also those pistachio green-and-gray interiors that went with the blue and white exterior paint jobs were the all-time worst color scheme in the history of mass transit.
My own feeling is the silver-and-blue scheme would have been OK had it not been for the graffiti epidemic which struck not long afterwards. It served a good purpose on the IRT in that it made the R-17s thru mainline R-36s look even more alike in appearance than they already were. The original Pelham 1-2-3 movie gave a glimpse of what it would have been like if those cars had stayed clean.
While I didn't mind the silver-and-blue scheme all that much, I would prefer to see museum rolling stock preserved in its original livery, if possible. The Transit Museum has done a good job in that regard, IMHO. The only exception would be an R-10 in the teal and white racing stripe scheme.
I was wondering about that too, but it was like that in June.
Read this story to learn about new ways to come in first in the marathon, like taking the subway.
This isn't new. Rosie Ruiz did it in New York years ago.
Yep, she sure did. Took the subway for part of the run. A passenger identified her later on. She also "entered" the Boston Marathon a few hundred yards from the finish line before anyone else got there, crossed the finish line and was declared the winner - that is, until it was proven she hadn't passed any of the checkpoints along the way. Ruiz insisted she ran the entire race. IIRC she was found to have a few loose screws, so to speak.
When did this start? and if it didn't when will it start?
It didn't start and at this point it won't be brought up again until 2002.
It was supposed to go into effect July 2000 but politcal and community pressure caused postponements and a rethinking by the MTA.
My comment on the whole matter: I question the qualifications of the "geniuses" who recommended the changes in the first place. I'll bet not one lives in the City or has ever taken the subway.
That is my 2 cents (and you have change coming)
The change would allow both 2 and 5 trains to enter 180th street at the same time. Now the trains cross north of the station to go to their respective terminals thus causing a delay in service.
Here is an editorial on the subject.
NO CHANGE FOR 2 and 5
Peace,
ANDEE
When approaching the Williamsburg Bridge after leaving the Marcy Ave. stop, I notice there are a series of small yellow signs which say "blind stop". Does anyone know what that means?
It means that there is a trip arm on the tracks without a signal head above it.
There's also such a signal at the 138 Street station on the 4 and 5 lines. On the southbound side of the station, there is Signal 2403-J, then after that there is Blind Stop 2403B-J, then Home Signal 2403A-J at the end of the platform.
Those blind trips are used for wrong rail operation and work as grade timers.
If someone could answer this question I would appreciate it. I am a daily commuter on the Babylon Line and I usaully see an Assistant Conductor, Conductor, Brakeman or even sometimes the Engineer getting verbally assaulted due to some mishap on the RR (ie: delays, hot cars, short trains, etc). WHAT THE HECK ARE THEIR SALARIES THAT THE MAKE? There has to be some monetary figure equal to taking the abuse some of them take.
I've noticed an odd thing at Continental Ave. On the southbound
platform, where route-request ("punch") boxes would normally
be installed (adjacent to the station stop markers), are new boxes
that resemble passenger emergency assistance boxes. They have a
small video camera, a red pushbutton, a speaker/microphone, and
the instructions "Press and release for assistance".
Now, here's the kicker: these instructions are repeated....
in Braille!
Does anyone know what these boxes are for?
two possibilities come to mind:
1) they mounted the wrong type of box at the location...
2) perhaps when automatic train operation becomes system wide, the train operator will be there just to reassure people that someone is guiding the train... it might not be necessary to have a sighted person... a person who is blind could operate a train, if he/she has an appropiately trained seeing eye dog doing the actual watching...
that seems to be the more sensible of the two possibilities... in fact, such a set up might be ideally suited for the "d" as in "dog" line...
the t/o is there to watch the systems. the dog is there to bite him if he touchs any of the controls
Replace the dog with a cat and you have
a sure-hit way to rid the undergrounds
of it's rat population..
09/27/2000
I wonder if the sign man who produced that one also made up the current white on black porcelain station signs I have photographed.
1) 34st/Bway BMT: 34 STREET PCRR
Yup! Penn Central Railroad
2) 34 St - Penn Sta
(1)(2)(3)(9)
CONRAIL-LIRR-Amtrak That's right CONRAIL photographed 9/90
Path trains to New Jersey
3) And here's the award winner:
Essex Street
Station
(J)(M)...........the bullets are not brown but BLUE as in 8th Ave !
Bill "Newkirk"
Just following govt regs. Just following govt regs. Just following govt regs.
(In Triplicate)
Elias
No, seriously folks, what the heck are these things for???
Braille notwithstanding, why would a motorman need to pull
down his cab window and press a button to get assistance?
That box (at the 10 car marker at Continental Ave. Manhattan bound express track D3) had to be put there by mistake. Somebody screwed up. First of all, if it were for a motorman, there is no way he/she could reach the punch as the punch buttons are too high. That box should be on a pillar so a passenger who is in need of assistance can summon the station agent for help. I have seen these boxes in a few other areas of the system. I reported this to a TSS today and he will notify the appropriate bureaucrat, but these things take time to be corrected.
the punch box at continental ave. is an experimental drive through order box for the mcdonalds at the next stop... train operators will be able to order burgers, fries, soft drinks, and warm cherry and apple pies at continental and pick up their orders at jackson heights...
success of the project will be measured by several carefully selected parameters:
1) observe if train operators make more requests to use a bathroom while enroute to their terminals
2) observe whether the train operators properly dispose of straws, hamburger bags, soda cups, and fries and pie packaging; or just drop said materials all over the floor of the cab and thereby contribute to the proliferation of roaches and rats...
3) determine if orders are processed fast enough so that there will be no delay in service...
This was tried and failed back in the early 80s. There was a train dispatcher at 168th St. (A line) who, on the midnight tour, sold soup, hot dogs, coffee, cake, etc. That is until a main shop 'drag', heading for 207th St stopped there on A-4 track one night. While the crew was getting their 'order' , a second shop drag, moving via 'other than head-car operation' lost communication, kept moving and rear-ended the first drag. Needless to say, it took 2 days to clean up the mess. Also needless to say, the train dispatcher was told to close down his consession and if ihe ever considered reopening it, he could kiss his pension goodbye.
this is a true story??
I never lie, Lois!!!
I'll second that it is indeed a true story. I somehow remember a Motor Instructor got caught up in that mess also and was demoted to a porter.
They went through an awful lot of trouble to do them! Over the
months I've watched them run the conduit, fish wires, mount the
boxes, and now finally mount the panels in the boxes. It's
positively Kafka-esque!
As of this morning, they turned the box around. Now it is upside down so that the motorman can activate the punch a bit easier, although it is still a long stretch, but me asks: If I have a problem why would I summon the booth attendant when I have a radio to call Control Center? Needless to say, the instructions on how to use the box and the braile instructions are upside down as well. What a joke!
There is a show on 102.7 WNEW-FM Opie and Anthony who are talking about the Mole People. I have heard that these people don't exist. They are getting cops, transit workers, Amtrak workers who claim that these cities below have people living in them. Do people live below? Stories?
It's all fake. There are no Mole People living below New York or any other American City. There are homeless who try to stay in the Subway, or in Penn Station or Grand Central, but the various cops move them along or out. The ones unlucky enough to get chewed up by trains get permanent lodging in the great beyond.
Don't believe things you hear on radio or television, they make up stuff for ratings.
Check links on nycsubway.org, it's been pretty well debunked.
Not even any C.H.U.D.?
I recommend to you a book, fiction, I just finished. I give it 5 tokens! the title is "Reliquary"the authors are Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child. The sequel to Relic. First edition May 1997. Library of Congress cat. # 96-53533, ISBN : 0-812-54283-5.
Its a suspense Thriller. See if any one can recognize the person doing the "heypaul" cameo?
avid
ps any one else out there who has read the above?
Yes, I read it... I posted a small list of complete nonsense back when it came out. The amount of liberty taken with the geography of the city was astonishing even given the fact that TWO authors should have known better... I've even received emails from various rubes and dupes asking where they can get into the "Astor Tunnels" that they "heard about". That book single-handedly set back the effort to spread the truth about what's down there so far it's not even funny.
I beleive they had the Hudson river on the east side of the Island. I guess we have to underline Fiction. How about hearing the deisel engines as the #4 train pulled out of the 59th St station?
avid
avid... strangely enough i read the book within the last year or so... it was fiction?...
the focus on the underground realms was good, while the outcome was unbelievable... i would give it 3 or 4 tokens...
i will have to reread it, to see who did the "heypaul" walk-on... was there a maniacal genius behind all the murders?...
Of coarse.....
THE KINGFISH!
avid
A friend of mine is about to buy two switchstand lanterns. He has them (sort of on approval), and asked me a question that I can't answer. Perhaps someone on SubTalk knows something about these lights.
They seem to be a matched pair, except that one was made by Dressel and the other by Adlake. Both lanterns have targets (a metal disc around the lens). Each lantern has four lenses (two amber & two blue), The amber lenses have yellow targets, and the blue lenses have white targets. The seller neatly electrified these lanterns with 4 watt nightlight bulbs. They look great when illuminated except that the blue lenses look almost blue white in color.
My friend is questioning me about these color combinations. I am used to switchstand lamps with red and green lenses, but don't know anything about these colors.
Were the amber and blue lenses and yellow and white targets correct for some railroad or rapid transit application in the old days, or was this something created by someone because he liked those colors?
Can anyone on SubTalk help?
Karl, the "blue" colored lens is in fact "lunar white". They
appear to be blue when not illuminated. Yellow/White is certainly
not the most popular color combination for switch targets, but
it sounds plausible.
Lunar white is a great way to describe those lenses when illuminated!
I thought that was a color used for signals though. Is it possible that it would be used in a switch stand lamp?
My Dad has in his collection an original New York central Lines switch lantern with the same color lenses amber and blue, this is the only switch lantern I have seen in those colors. Hope this helps
Thanks Steve! I will tell him that there is at least one other lamp out there with the same combination of colors, and it is marked NYC.
Incidentally, I had originally looked the two lamps over very carefully, and could not find any RR initials on them. I guess there are probably lots of lamps as well as hand lanterns out there that don't have any RR markings. RR fans seem to shy away from items that don't have an identifying RR mark on them!
Do you suspect that it might be from a gantlet track, or perhaps a spring loaded switch.
Usually in yards, a blue flag or light indicates that a craft is working on or under the equipment, and that it must not be moved. Perhaps this is the same.
Elias
They are blue lenses but when they are illuminated they don't look blue, they look almost white. Jeff called it lunar white. The targets around the blue lenses are white also.
Unfortunately I don't know the actual railroad that they are from. My friend told me that the seller told him they came from the southwestern U.S.
I just found out the prototype spv-2000 was scrapped last year after sitting in the old budd plant at redlion (Phily) since the plant closing. I would like to save a spv-2000. I know most were demotorized to become Conn. Shoreline cars, but not all.Some were used for parts?? I know the FRA still has one operating.
I know from some pictures on this web site there are a few on the dead track at Metro North Croton yard.Or at least they were there.
( I went to see them but did not find them near the station).
I heard a rumor the NM cars were not scrapped due to a lien! Doesn't sound right but who knows?
If anyone could help me find one for sale I might be able to save one.
Please pour on the messages...
I tried using the archive search to avoid boring everyone put could not find anything with it.
Joe
09/27/2000
[I just found out the prototype spv-2000 was scrapped last year after sitting in the old budd plant at redlion (Phily) since the plant closing.]
Really? I was up at Harmon Shops last year and I saw what I was told was the prototype for the SPV-2000 in the back. It didn't look like it ever saw service, no distinctive paint scheme or markings. There can't be two prototypes of these cars ! What exactly did I see, can anyone tell us?
"Bill Newkirk"
The last time time a seen a SPV-2000 was about 1-2 years ago. There were about 20 cars on the R.I.P track in North Croton. The paint schemes were faded or fading away. I don't think they are there now.
Almost forgot, they are still there, i saw them just last week.
Thanks you for the update on the spv-2000's still being the the Croton dead (NM) tracks. Can you tell me how many there where? I saw a picture that looked like one had a snow plow on the front. Anyone know anything about if they are still used for this?
There was a post made about seeing the original spv-2000 at the HARMON station. This is a different station than Croton or is it another name for croton?
I have a tenative agreement to keep the train on a short line if it can be saved.
joe
I'm pretty sure most of the mechanical equipment is gone, I think the seats were removed too.
What would they be needed for (on Metro-North) anyway, other than service from Brewster North to Dover Plains (now Wassaic)?
Budd made 20 SPVs for Metro-North? I thought they made only 10 of them for M-N. ConnDOT purchased 13 SPVs and originally used them on the Hartford/Springfield and Waterbury lines. Too bad they were pieces of crap (SPV is for Seldom Powered Vehicle) or they might have made the Hartford/Springfield line more successful. But the ConnDOT SPVs were coverted into push-pull coaches and now run on the Shore Line East service from New Haven to New London. If you're ever in New Haven, you might see some SPVs in the yard.
I use to see them once in a while doing a single thing between NH & Hartford.
Mr t__:^)
You mean as rebuilt coaches behind CDOT Locomotives. Shore Line East has an interesting fleet, don't you think? I believe that CDOT has an unrebuilt SPV at New Haven, as I can usually see one in the distance on the way up to Branford, and looks quite plain.
The RIP Track at Harmom should still have SPVs. I wonder if the CDOT or MTA would be interested in rebuilding those?
-Stef
-Stef
[You mean as rebuilt coaches behind CDOT Locomotives?]
No they were "RDCs" that were used in NH/Hartford service.
Did all the M-N/CT-DOT Budds have 3rd rail ?
The Danbury museum also has an odd one (had a full cab at each end).
Can't you see use smoking it up going to Short Beach, boy then the NYMBIs would realy have some to complain about. I don't think they would like the horn either ... just a bit louder then a ding ding.
Mr t__:^)
3rd Rail? They aren't electric, but diesel. Yeah, I've seen the equipment at Danbury, and the pieces are interesting. It would be nice to some of their equipment on the road. Rolling down the line to Short Beach, I dunno if the folks at Shore Line would want an RDC rolling on that property. It would leave many of visitors of the general public all choked up .
-Stef
I doubt it. They frequently broke down. I used to ride them oftern between Croton-Harmon & Poughkeepsie in the mid and late 1980s.
--Mark
Be careful in your terminology. The R.I.P track stands for Repair, Inspect, Paint. Its for stuff that has some minor damage or age and will return to service ASAP. The Dead Line is where old equipment sits waiting to see the sun again.
RIP also means "repain in place", same thing.
The Budd SPV 2000s are kept on the deadline at the old Croton North station, along with a few FL-9s. It is about a half mile north of Croton Harmon. Best place to view is from the west side of the tracks, near the CSX yard, or the pedestrian overpass. DO NOT ENTER the yard, the MTA Police watch it closely (due to overeager railfans trying to get pieces of the FL-9s).
Thanks to all that sent info.
Sorry I forgot about the full name being Croton-Harmon. Very stupid!
Thanks for the location info on the cars and the warning about the Bulls. You saved me bail money!
When is open house at the Croton station?
joe
When is open house at the Croton station?
I asked at the trainmasters office at GCT yesterday.
They didn't know !!
Have a nice day.
It's usually in late October.
--Mark
Thanks !!
Have a nice weekend !!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1346/bxrr1912.jpg
This image appears to be a proposal to develop the East Bronx and Throggs Neck as an industrial Area. This was the same time that the NY Weschester & Boston was built. Except, in this case, I believe that this was a proposal for freight business for the New Haven RR
Just read...from "Friends of Amtrak" website..that the FRA has accepted the Acella train sets....Amtrak will commence service on October 29th...Testing will continue till then....Max allowable speeds..Wash DC to Penn 130mph...Penn to Boston..150mph....( I believe
MetroNorth only allows 80mph..Penn to New Haven..not certain)...
...I believe MetroNorth only allows 80mph...
Nice to know Amtrak has to Kowtow to somebody!
No, Amtrak has to kowtow to everybody except between DC and New Rochelle, between New Haven and Boston, and a section in Michigan.
Why are Silver Star/Palm/Meteor always late? South of DC is controlled by CSX. Freight trains are always a priority for CSX.
Chaohwa
How many pax trains does CSX operate?
ZERO. All passenger service on CSX tracks are operated by either Amtrak or a commuter agency. As to CSX, freight ALWAYS gets priority over passengers. They would be very happy if MARC and VRE would disappear tomorrow.
As to CSX, freight ALWAYS gets priority over passengers.
I heard this also, straight out of the mouth of a CSX dispatcher who I know very, very well. However, is there not a law giving passenger trains priority, and if so, who enforces it?
Don't think so a law exists. MARC used to run special trains for Oriole games, until CSX refused to let them run the return trains, so MARC killed the baseball trains.
The contract between MARC and CSX is still under re-negotation, with much acromony among the negotiations.
When Amtrak was created congress legislated that all freight carriers had to accomidate it. So if Amtrak wants to run passenger trains on any line, the freight RR has to let it.
Somebody better tell both CSX and the Maryland Mass Transit Administration about Congress's intent. I'll bet it did not include commuter agancies, as they basically didn't exist when Amtrak was created.
Congressional intent or not, on CSX passengers are always inferior to freight.
If so, then why is Amtrak having so much trouble running trains from Boston's North Station to Portland, Maine
Congress mandated that the freight railroads accommodate Amtrak trains that were running on their railroad, not that they accommodate any new train Amtrak wishes to add to their property.
Well Congress said nothing about having to upgrade the line for Amtrak or other things like build stations. But Freight RR's are prohibited from simply refusing to have Amtrak start a new service.
According to the Message Wire column in this month's edition of the Mass Bay Railroader Enthusiasts, another delay in construction at North Station may push the start of Boston-Portland service PAST the currently scheduled spring, 2001. Roadway tunnels are being constructed below the North Station tracks, leading to closure of two tracks (out of 10) at a time for a period of months. Since MBTA Commuter Trains use all of the existing capacity, AMTRAK can not begin service until this construction is complete.
Separately, the Boston Globe reported a few months ago that even if the above is true, Amtrak may try to begin off-peak service before it is able to provide its full schedule. But I've not seen any reaction on that yet.
When I lived in DC in '94, I rode one of the MARC special trains to Camden Yards. I remember them laying down the law about no booze on board. Sorry to hear they've disappeared.
OTOH, Washington really ought to have a major league team. RFK is already there and could accomodate baseball once more. The Expos should move to D.C., where they would actually have fans show up at the game. Rename them the Senators, after Washington's old team. After all, their AA club, the Senators, would be a mere 2 hrs. away up U.S. 15!
In my early years the Washington Senators were as inept as the Philadelphia Athletics. They fought for the A.L. cellar.
The St. Louis Browns were bad, too.
In my early years the Washington Senators were as inept as the Philadelphia Athletics. They fought for the A.L. cellar.
So the Expos moving to D.C. would be just like old times, eh! :o)
BTW, did you ever go to a game at Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium? I learned about it on a PBS video called, "Things That Aren't There Anymore [in Philadelphia]" which I think was produced by the Philadelphia PBS station.
And to keep this on topic (although, I have seen posts here about Ebbets Field, the Polo Grounds, etc.), was there transit to the ballpark ? Where was it exactly, and what's there now? It was the A's that played there, no?
And while we're at it, when did the Phillies start playing in Philly? Was it a new team, or moved from somewhere else and renamed? Where did they play before the Vet?
The Phillies have always been in Philly. They played at a small stadium around 9th and Lehigh (before my time) called Baker Bowl, then they moved in with the A's in Shibe Park. I went to many games at Shibe Park, later Connie Mack Stadium, frequently taking the bridge train, Ridge Ave subway, and BSS to Lehigh (North Phila), then walked to 21st. I saw the Whiz Kids play there.
I saw Joe Dimaggio play CF and Mickey Mantle RF in their last and first seasons, respectively, in the same game. The Yanks beat the A's.
Channel 12 produced "Things That Aren't There Anymore" and a sequel.
Thanks for the memories, Pete.
Bob
...Channel 12 produced "Things That Aren't There Anymore" and a sequel.
Do you remember what the sequel was called? I could only find the original for sale on Channel 12's website.
"MORE Things that aren't there any more."
It's something like "More things that aren't there anymore".
I called WHYY's store, & the woman who answered the phone said that "More Things That Aren't There Anymore" was not available, or was $60. She was singularly unhelpful when I attempted to find out when it might be available for a more reasonable price, not seeming to know anything, and not seeming to care enough to find me answers. I guess there's no $$ in public TV to hire good help...
I think the idea is really to build a stadium spmeplace in Northern Virginia somplace [hopefully somplace close to a Metro station..or at least a VRE station....]
I remember the NIMBYs shooting down the Redskins stadium, which was to be built in Alexandria, VA at the site of a rail yard. Instead, they built it in Landover, MD, which made no sense to me since Landover is much closer to Baltimore than Alexandria, and Baltimore already had a football team. Coincidentally, the MCI Center was then built, moving the Caps and Bullets (now Wizards) back into D.C. from, where? Landover, MD. Weird.
Putting a team in Montreal was always one of Baseball's less inspired franchise awardings..Toronto makes more sense, because it being able to draw from the Buffalo area as well as the Toronto metro area...Montreal has NEVER been a real baseball hotbed of any kind....one of those cities that is strictly AAA level attendance...
Amtrak has to kowtow to everybody except between DC and New Rochelle, between New Haven and Boston, and a section in Michigan.
Amtrak also kowtows to nobody between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, since they own that ROW too.
They also own the Post Road Branch from the Conrail Boston Line to the Albany-Rencelear Station, the Springfield Line and Chicago union station. The Poast Road Branch has an interesting story. The Post Road was a hi speed NYC line that allowed B&A trains into Albany. Freight would keep on going over the bridge into Selkirk yard. I believe that either the Penn Central, or more likley Conrail (right after it started) was in a big hurry to get rid of surplus trackage. They saw the Post Road as stupid and despite an ICC order not to do anything to it, they went out under cover of darkness and managed to rip up a good portion of the track(s) before someone noticed and got them to stop. However the line was cut and for a year or 2 Lake Shore trains had to go onto the Hudson river bridge, back down the Hudson Line connecting track and then forward into Albany. Never-the-less Conrail was forced to rebuild the Post Road and they sold it to Amtrak. Today CSX has rights to it and it is probably used by them for trains that wish to bypass Selkirk and access the Chicago Line direct at LAB (M)(X)(D).
I should have known that. Thanks for your reminder, Pete.
Chaohwa
Arrived on the property at Unionport Yard as of 9/25/2000!
-Stef
Since we've been talking about some of the ugliest stations in the system, I thought we could do a more positive counterpart and apreciate some of the pretier ones, in terms of design.
I don't have anywhere near the encyclopedic knowledge some people here have, but of the underground stations I know...
Main St, Flushing--7, Beautifully restored IRT (or dual contracts) era mosaics, with some nice paterns too. Shame these are island platforms, since that often makes it hard to see the walls.
Penn Station--1,2,3,9 Also some nice mosaics and a real sense of grandeur.
Times Square--1,2,3,7,9,N,R ditto.
Montrose Ave, L--I haven't actually been there, but after seeing the lovely pictures on this website I really want to make a trip out there.
Lexington Ave N,R---Some really lovely use of colors.
Union Suare N,R--Some cute designs built into the mosaics.
Maybe I'll think of more.
:)Andrew
1/9- South Ferry
2/5- East 180th
1/9- 168th Street
1/9- 50th Street
2/3- 34th Street
1/9- Cortlandt St
4/5/6- Union Sq
7- Grand Central
B/D/F/N- Stillwell Ave
Christopher Street on the 1/9 is nice
Nappy
You call Stillwell Avenue a nice station???
Immediately make an appointment with your optometrist.
From track level it is, and possibly from the street.
An optometrist? He should make an appointment with a psychiatrist. That station is a disgrace. I happened to be there (on my annual vacation to New York) on Labor Day, when it rained in the afternoon. Water everywhere in a place of advanced decay, truly a civic disgrace.
How about these:
34 St/6th Ave
Cortlandt St. B/way
Canal St B/way Local Station
JDL
50th Street on the 1/9, with its Alice in Wonderland mosaics.
Bway-Lafayette on B/D/F/Q is a nice looking station. Bowling Green on 4/5. I think Astor Place on the 6 looked good, too. I can't remember if it was that one though. Some local station on the Lex looked good between Brookyn Br and Grand Central.
Most, if not all of the original Contract One local stations have been renovated, with a uniform mosaic pattern on the lengthened portions matching the original. They look really sharp.
Any local station along '1' from Chambers to 72nd- special merit for Franklin and 66th.
5th Avenue (N/R)- meticulous restoration of classic BMT style
Canal Street on both '6' and 'N/R'. A real slap in the face to the connected J/M/Z station.
Parkside, Beverly, Cortelyou ('D')
Montrose, Wilson lower level, Bushwick ('L')
Most of the original IND designs are just too cold and sterile.
Canal Street on both '6' and 'N/R'. A real slap in the face to the connected J/M/Z station.
The southbound platform has been renovated. The northbound platform will be abandoned.
The Grant Avenue Station on the "A" line, nestled on the boarder between the boroughs of Kings and Queens has an ambient flavor of sight and sound that sets the spirit to wing. The choice of color and texture display a character unsurpassed through out the system. The climate reflects the mood and tempo of this great metropolis. This unique station should be a "must see" for visitors and residents alike. Day or night, the station is like a crystal turning in the noon day sun. When you visit the station , do not feel shy , break out into song, let your voice reach the heavens above. Rejoice!
avid
(I am back - my leave's over; my wife's OK)
Borough Hall on the #4/#5
33rd Street on the #6
110th Street on the #6
Church Avenue on the #2/#5
3rd Avenue/149th Street on the #2/#5
181st Street on the #1/#9
Utica Avenue on the A/C
All good-looking stations.
wayne
Wall St on the 4/5 with its orginal token booth
I'm surprised you didn't mention any stations on the Canarsie, what with their ornate mosaics.:-)
Other posters beat me to it.
ACTUALLY - I should add Jefferson to that list. The tile there is a very plesant combination of cool and earth colors with yellow accents AND there is BRAND NEW tile at the west exit on the Canarsie-bound side, including a few brand-new "J" icons. This is all hand cut and hand set in the original (Vickers) style.
Jefferson Street: Frieze center colors - random tile cut
Old tile color ------------ New tile color
--------------------------------------------------
Light blue..................Slate blue (darker, duller)
Canary yellow...............Deco yellow (sightly lighter)
Parchment brown.............Rosy Beige (lighter, pinker)
Brown.......................Orange (different color)
They also threw in some Peach (Deco Orange) for good measure.
The edges, borders, separators, diamonds, triangles are all basically the same colors except there is some of the clay rose color in the bottom footer band and the separators are solid Indigo blue. There is also an additional speckled/mottled color tile, kind of a brownish-orangish color, in the background bits, all 3/4" size tile.
I've never seen anything like that used in a frieze, anywhere! There is also a periwinkle blue color in the background which wasn't in the original. Whoever did this REALLY went out of their way to make it look like the original style but they didn't duplicate the colors 100%. I think they tried to improve on the original and in some respects they may have succeeded. All of the tile in the center of the frieze is random hand cut and set and contains the right elements (including the right triangles) and it looks like high-glazed porcelain too. REAL good stuff. Send these guys over to Wilson Avenue!
wayne
Sounds like one more station to examine on Oct. 26.
I think so, Steve. You will like this.
They also have a little bit of new work at the next stop down, De Kalb BUT it is in the mezzanine/stairwell and is the 7-inch border stuff typically found in Canarsie line entrances. The background is kind of a dull green but there's blue with it and the center is a brighter version of the dull colors (tan,yellow,parchment) found in the original. That same light peach and deco yellow is present. I think they're probably going to duplicate this at the east end of the outbound platform where the communication room is. They need to clean that entire area up; it's a candidate for filthy-mess.com; absolutely putrid and rank with urine.
wayne
1. Why 4 short bursts instead of long-long-short-long when skipping a station?
2. Why do skip-stopping trains rarely honk?
3. Why do a few T/Os honk before every station? (LE Wannabes?)
The rule book and bulletins associated with trains skipping stations mandate a "succession of short blasts" when bypassing a station. I can enter and leave a station with as little as two short tooties to comply with the directive. The rule 14L equivalent of LIRR or the NORAC 19B both pretaining to engine whistle and horn rules for trains approaching crossings at grade, known as the Long Long Short Long signal you are referring, to does not apply to the subways. If someone honked before entering a station, it can be for many reasons, such as maintainers or other personel on the roadway, an accidental tap on the button or simply a hello to a passing express train, a bad habit I picked up years ago. The exception to the honking rule is on elevated structures and other out of door rightaways between 9PM and 6AM, I recall if I am correct.
I have several times gotten an R where the T/O honked before every single station (one short burst). Always the moment the first car gets to the platform. Is it allowed to honk when not necessary?
No, he's not supposed to do that.
Rule 61 (h) is the answer:
This is from an old TA Rule book so it is missing some bulleitns.
RULE 61 Train Horn or Whistle Signals
("o" = Short sound and "___" longer sound. Each sound should be distinct with interval and duration propotionate to the signal to be conveyed)
(a) ____ Apply brakes immediately STOP
(b) ___ ___ Sounde dwhen passsing caution lights or flags to warn flagger of approach of a train
(c) o o An anser to any signal.
(d) o o o Road Car Inspector to respond to train.
(e) ___ o Signal Maintaner to repsond to the train.
(f) ___ o ___ o Train Crew needs (Police) assistance.
(g) o o o o Train request to Tower Operator or handswitcher for route or signal.
(h) Succession of Short Sounds A warning to person on or near the track or on short station platforms. This signal must also be sounded when a train is oeprating agianst the normal direction of traffic, or when a train is making an irregular more, or when a train is passiing through the station without stopping.
NOTE: tThe horn or whistle must not be sounded when operating over section of track that are outdoors (on elevated structures, embankments and in open cuts) during the period between 9:00pm and 6:00am, unless an emergancy exists or personnel are on the trackway.
(j) Unneccessary sounding of the horn or whislte is forbidden.
All trains on the San Francisco BART system sound their horns, two short blasts, whenever entering any station.
All trains on the Los Angeles Red Line sound one good healthy blast entering all the stations (bring your earplugs when you come to LA if the strike ever ends).
On the Los Angeles Blue Line, they do NOT blow the horns entering stations; they DO sound the "14-L" signal (two long, a short, and a long) for grade crossings except those in the city of Long Beach.
On the Green Line, the only horn blowing you hear is the irate motorists stuck in traffic on the freeway beside the train..... :-(
Why do a few T/Os honk before every station? (LE Wannabes?)
As mentioned previously, locomotive engineers sound a required horn signal of LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG when approaching a grade X-ing. This is referred to as rule 14L on the LIRR and Conrail, among others. The TA has no grade crossings so there is no equivalent signal. Rule 14Q (Corail) requires a signal of LONG-SHORT when approaching a station when running against traffic. That being said, many LE and T/Os will also sound the horn when approaching a station to alert passengers who may not be aware that the train is approaching. TA rule forbids unnecessary blowing of the train horn/whistle. However, blowing the horn/whistle in the name of customer safety could hardly be considered unnecessary. In any event, I wouldn't want to fight that one in a disciplinary hearing.
Was there ever a rule about horn blowing at E. 105th St. on the Canarsie when the grade crossing was still there?
Denver's light rail trains also sound a long-long-short-long series of horn blasts when approaching the two gate-protected grade crossings on the route.
Ir rode the Canarsie Line in BMT Standards when the crossing was still there. I thought it odd that not a peep (literally, if you know what the Standards' whistles were like) was sounded, considering at the time I lived out in Bay Shore and the LIRR would blow the horns for all the crossings there like someone gave them the horn for Christmas.
Now out on the SIRT, with their similar-to-the-Standards cars with very shrill one-note whistles, they had grade crossings in them days, and they would blow the regular 14-L signal ( - - o - ) as they were then actually the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad and had to follow railroad rules. There is a rail video out that was made from older non-sound-equipped films, and dubbed with sound -- but they put in some CNS&M air horns on the video of pairs of SIRT cars travelling through Dongan Hills. I guess nobody had audio recordings of the SIRT available when that video was dubbed.
It's funny. I rode on the BMT standards on the Canarsie during their final two years of service, and never heard any horn or whistle. I did catch a Triplex whistle sound thanks to heypaul's tape recording of one of the fantrips in July, and it sounded like the DC relay whistle on my American Flyer 314AW K-5 steam loco.
There's a PCC tape of Philly in the 1960s' converted from 8mm. For the PCC sounds, they used recordings of DC PCC's - complete with the rear gongs. Really a hoot when viewed by people who know their PCC's!!
A really good job of dubbing is in Transit Gloria Mundi's new video of Pittsburgh's West End lines (Steel City Traction 2 - West end Story . For the air car sounds Carl recorded sounds from our PCC, 7407 and then looped and remixed the sounds so that you cannot tell where they came from.
Did anyone notice the gaffe they pulled in Crocodile Dundee 2? They dubbed in door chime sounds in that scene at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (playing itself, no less!) with that A train of R-38s. Oops!
This is probably more of a transit/movie blooper, but some time ago there was a TV-movie with Joel Higgins and Katharine Hepburn (!) that took place in Hicksville. In one scene, his wife is picking him up at what is supposed to be the local train station: a tiny shack with a sign on it saying 'Hicksville'. No train is seen, but crossing bells and a train horn are clearly heard. Not the Hicksville we know!!
The filmmakers probably felt a good composite image of a commuter train on Long Island must include the implication of a crossing. Kinda like every office and apartment set in San Francisco has a cable car running by.
Then there's the horn blast of the approaching B train in The French Connection just before The Chase gets underway, as Gene Hackman is surveying the platform at Bay-50th St. Not to mention the two-buzz highball as the train leaves that station. My guess is that both of those are the real McCoy, and that the producers wanted them that way. I could be wrong, though.
Did the R-42s really have a light marked "Motorman's Indication" when new? I thought the air pressure gauge when illuminated gave indication.
While I can't vouch for the R42's having that labeling, I do remember such a sign on some cars when I lived in NYC in the 1960's.
When that movie was filmed, there WERE crossings with bells, and whistle-blowing done in Hicksville.
Are there any movies of the Finevue trolley line in Pittsburg of the 60's available ??
My car no longer has the orange stripe under the number plate, yet the mate does. I no longer have an easy way to distinguish it from the other R-32s when there are cables in the way of the number plate(only about 12 cars still have the stripe). This happened almost overnight, because it was there after the new floor was put in.
Sometime in the afternoon, a Rte. 10 trolley headed westbound at 63-
Lansdowne hit a little girl. She had just gotten off the car and was crossing in front of it ( she had a green light) , when the trolley inched forward . She was briefly pinned under the car and only suffered head and shoulder injuries.
Anybody else have any further details?
Chuck Greene
The srory is in today's Inkie. The 13-year-old girl appeared confused about crossing the street and was waived across by a motorist as the light was changing. She suffered a broken ankle ane other minor injuries.
Motorists should NEVER wave people across a street, for they have no control over other motorists. Better people should learn to LOOK for themselves.
Such a thing happened in Bismarck several years ago. (No.. no street cars here, but...) A driver in the left lane stopped to let a girl cross the street, and the driver in the right lane (assuming that the other driver was trying to make a left turn) hit the girl.
At least in NYC, both the drivers and the pedestrians *know* that the other is not going to stop for them.
BTW, do pedestrians still pour across 7th Avenue at Penn Station regardless of the traffic, or has the mayor been able to put a stop to that?
Elias
Yes, pedestrians still cross 7th at Penn w/o checking the light. A giant wall of people often blocks the taxi lane.
I didn't know SEPTA still had trolleys. There's a SEPTA trolley near the corner of 4th Avenue and Union Street in Brooklyn.
SEPTA runs trolleys (single car light rail vehicles with trolley poles) on the subway surface routes (10, 11, 13, 34, 36). Pictures are available on this site.
Ah, but the SEPTA trolley car in Brooklyn is a PCC!
Of course. Who'd want to preserve a box with a trolley pole on the roof? At least not for another 25 years or so.
I think that the Kawasaki trolleys are nice vehicles. They are very bright inside and have a fun side to side sway at times. I don't think the boxy look is so bad.
They are not PCCs, but they are not buses either.
I prefer Toronto's CLRVs to the K cars, but that's probably a hometown bias.
BTW if anyone is interested in Philly photos of a PCC / Witt charter, the K cars in service or the trackless trolleys, email me and I'll be happy to send them along.
henry's post a little while ago, in which he noticed that his favorite car was missing a strip under the number plate, gave me an idea for an mta program...
railfans and normal people would be encouraged to adapt a subway car... people would be encouraged to select a car that runs on a line that they regularly use, so as to ensure they will run into it frequently... the car would become their baby, on which they would cast a concerned eye...
things to watch for:
flourescent bulbs out or going bad, unusual noises from the motors or gears, freely moving doors, well maintained floors, up to date maps, properly operating heating and cooling systems, and easy to understand p.a. announcements...
in addition the adaptors would agree to weekly:
clean all interior windows with windex, scrape all chewing gum off floors and bottoms of car seats, inspect all scratchitti messages to ensure that there are no offensive messages against the mta, encourage other customers to adapt a car of their own, and carry a car air freshener which they will hang over the seat that a homeless person is sitting on...
people who adapt a car and provide loving care for one year, will have a plaque installed in the car honoring them...
It is realy hard for me to tell if this one is supose to funny or not, can you please help me out ?
BTW, I think I like the idea.
Mr t__:^)
That's a great idea!
If it were fifty years ago I would have been a volunteer. I know which type of car I would have picked. Of course my car did not have flourescent lights or cooling, and I don't remember that scratchitti and homeless people existed back then. This would make the job much easier.
I would have to carry a can of grease to lubricate the gate mechanism though!
And in the case of gate cars, you had to make sure the bells worked properly and there were no broken ropes. Ding! Ding!:-)
That's right, I forgot about them. I'd have to carry a supply of material to muffle the bell on one end of each car!
heypaul, unfortunately, instead of putting up air fresheners to counteract the odor of the homeless on my "adopted car", I would be the type to give them the ol' heave-ho. I would oust them from the system -- but not to be completely heartless -- recommending that they go to either a homeless shelter or your apartment.
BMTman
I want 6688!!! (Hah, beat Stef to it)
Yes I know that number is not in service at this time, but will appear soon with the R142 order (think it is an 142A car). The number means something to me!!!
Hey!
Let's have champagne, 6688 is coming back to service as an R-142. Hip, hip hooray!!! Hey Lou, do you think 6688 would gain attention at Autumn in NY by running without pantographs? She resembles a Rider Car on one end right now....
-Stef
Yah, hook her up to the Low-V why don't ya (tired of the R9/LV combo).
Willets Point Shea Stadium next (hehe)...
I don't know how our project leader would feel about that.....
-Stef
My marching orders for this week-end is to make sure I get the head lights re-attached (I have the inside painted, so it's a can-do job, provided I can find some gasket material).
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
If nothing else works, and automobile tire innertube cuts up into great gasket material!
I should have remembered that ! Thanks for the great tip ... good thinckness stays plyable & will last a long time ....
Now if I can only talk our "curator" into it, we're a museum you know.
But then I would put the nose back on the sphinx just because he would look much better that way.
Mr t__:^)
And, since nothing is electrically compatable, watch the ensuing explosion.
Hey, Stef, at this rate 6688 might be redone in MOW Yellow!!! (just teasing)
;-)
BMTman
MOW yellow or ConnCo yellow?
Depends -- how much of MOW or ConnCo yellow do we have in "stock"?
;-)
BMTman
Oh bite your toung ! 6688 is almost nude now, she would feel like she's in jail with black stripes on yellow, and masquerading as some CT Company thing, oh perish the thought.
I'll vote for fire engine red so she stands out and can shout LOOK AT ME i'm a Red Bird and proud of it !
Mr t__:^)
What was the color of 6688 as delivered?
Peace,
ANDEE
6688 and the rest of her R-17 sisters arrived from St. Louis Car Co. decked out in maroon. 6609 at the Transit Museum bears that paint job today. I am hoping 6688 will someday be refinished in its original maroon shade as well.
Well at least 6688 can still roll around and play with the subfans. 6609 isn't so fortunate.
-Stef
Quite true. I've seen 6688 at the museum, even photographed it, but haven't ridden on it there. I'd love to see it take off down the mainline.:-)
Steve, you've hit on the reason we "expanded" the cosmetic job to a complete stripping, however she'll get a RED coat until we're ready to reverse-engineer her all the back to how she originally looked.
(we're a museum you know, so we can't just paint her Maroon)
(even white with that big blue stripe would mean some reverse-engineering first)
The good news is she's in fine mechanical & structural shape so many generations will be able to take a ride with her irrespective of the coat she wares. Come see for yourself next week-end !
Who's know in my life time we might see a 6688/6688 lash up at Branford ... now would that be something ?
Mr t__:^)
Well, we could wind up with an R-142 when I'm in my 70s, and hopefully I'll be there to see it. Funny, but I think I'll still be there in about a decade or so trying to turn the clock on 6688 back to 1955. We shall see...
-Stef
Put it this way: had I not come out to Colorado 20 years ago and stayed in Connecticut, you can bet I would have been at the museum every weekend I could possibly come out. My pet would have been 1689; I still think of it as such. You'll see me there one of these days.
R-9 1689 has been out on the line a couple of times recently, once to see if she would fit into Barn #2.
We'll be thinking of you next week-end when we make that EXPRESS trip to Short Beach (hope you won't mind if we hook her up to an old IRT barn mate).
Mr t__:^)
Why, thank you. I will be there in spirit. I understand it has become common practice to couple 1689 with 5466, and that's cool. You know what would be great? Stage a reunion of sorts with 1689 and its sister units at Seashore. A nice, 3-car train signed up as an AA or GG as a nod to the days of 3-car trains on those two routes. Scuffles over who would assume the position, etc.
While we're on the subject of reunions, there's 3662 and Seashore's 3352. I wonder if they ever think about each other anymore.:-)
[While we're on the subject of reunions, there's 3662 and Seashore's 3352. I wonder if they ever think about each other anymore.:-)]
That much of a buff I'm not yet ... did you ever get a reply when you talked to them ;-)
I've been on the Gibbs Hi-V at Seashore (she needs a new friend as something happend to her previous project ... her outside was restored to fine shape, but the inside is a mess). Sometimes Shoreline will hook up the Hi-V & Lo-V togather ... happened the day I got my free operator lesson.
Another great ride is the BU elevated car ... hanging out on her back porch as she glides down the line. Makes me glad I had that one ride on the Qs before they were retired.
Mr t__:^)
I saw the Qs on Myrtle Ave., but never rode on them.
From what I have heard, Seashore embarked on a project some years ago to restore 3352 to its 1904 appearance (and I'm still willing to bet it ran on Day One) and got as far as removing the center doors and sills as well as the associated external hardware before it got put on hold and wasn't resumed. I also understand it needs a lot of additional work.
Steve, Take another look at my Field Trip report. It includes two shots of Seashore's Gibbs Hi-V. I think you can tell from the second that the center doors are in fact gone.
I was told that she is operational, but indeed she needs a lot of work inside.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. t,
The Hi V has a couple of problems, including a pretty bad air leak in one of the brake stands. It hasn't been out of the barn in a few years, mainly due to the fact that it's blocked in by some Tarped Wonders :-)
Hopefully next year I'll have some time & energy (& money!) to get some work done on it.
tg/syosset
Oh, I knew the center doors were gone. There are before and after photos of 3352 in Under the Sidewalks of New York, courtesy of Jim Tebbetts (sp). The windows are missing in the "after" photo, but you can clearly see that the add-on hardware, center doors, and fish belly sills had been removed.
Stef, see ya at 1:00 @ the Museum. Don't forget the pictures...
BMTman
6688 will be an Bombardier R142.
You all know which one I'd adopt, right?
Hint:
as a follow-up to several questions i have received about the mta "adapt a car" program:
1) i have heard that the mta will not be able to supply windex and car air fresheners as they had planned, since the moneys set aside for this purpose has been diverted to purchasing cases of "white-out" which are needed to complete the forms for the 30 day acceptance program for the r142a's...
2) as an additional perk to volunteers, they will be given special id that will allow them to choose the seat or railfan window of their choice in their chosen car... when requested, all customers occupying these seats, must yield their seat to the car's benefactor... this will include the elderly and disabled, however it is hoped that the volunteers will exercise some sensitivity to special cases...
3) despite some disparaging remarks made by one of the posters, the homeless are going to be included in this project... afterall, the homeless have been forced, through no fault of their own, to make the subways their homes... being that some of the homeless seem to have adopted certain cars as their personal living space, we will encourage these people to join our "adapt a car" program... in this way, we can help the homeless mainstream themselves back into the general population... if they agree to pick a car in one of the non operating middle cars of a 5 car irt set, we will install showers, toilets and sinks in the cabs, so that they can have a place to groom themselves and take care of bodily functions...in addition they will be free to select a two seat bench on which they can rest and regain their strength...
Former President George (no W) Bush is also sponsering a "Habitat on Wheels" for the Homeless . It is Totally fund by private citizens in the form of higher Fares. Watch his Lips. The showers and toilets are in the design stage. Surveys are currently being do by the homeless for most favorable location of fixed and mobile facilities. If you see a hoimless person washing , changing clothes or releiving ones self , do not interfere. Its a survey for a better NEW YORK.
avid
>>>...George (no W) Bush...<<<
Don't you mean dumyah, oops I mean, dubyah?
Peace,
ANDEE
No , his fadda, the one wit no dubyah!
What! You mean he didn't say, "Can't do it, can't do it."?
I think it's safe to assume there won't be any broccoli offered. Pork rinds, maybe.
Mineola, the private subway car of Interborough Rapid Transit financier August Belmont, will be featured on The History Channel's program ``History's Lost and Found'' on Friday September 29th at 8:00 PM EDT (re-run at 1:00 AM that evening).
The Mineola, officially car 3344 on the IRT roster, was built in 1904 and displays the finest craftsmanship of the gilded age. Now resides at Branford Electric Railway Association's Shoreline Trolley Museum. www.bera.org
And come check out the Museum for Autumn in New York October 7th and 8th when all the NY Rapid Transit Cars and (yes them too) Trolleys will be out and you can ride on them. See a speical offer that allows you to even operate a subway car (or if you want to ) trolley as well!!
See you there!!
Last night I was watching the Olympic broadcast on NBC, intermittently. At one point, I flipped back to channel 4 to catch the tail end of a segment about a train in Austrailia which had been "hemorrhaging money" when run by the government, but was privatized and is now "thriving." The route was through an arid part of the country. The name of the train had "India" in it, I think. There was something about a hermit named "Ziggy" who lives in the desert who gets supplies from the train. Anyway, can anyone provide further informantion about this train, and, while we're at it, the nature of transit in Austrailia? (Yes, folks, I did check the "Around the World" section of nycsubway.org!)
That's the Indian-Pacific Railroad. I did a quick Google search on it, and there doesn't seem to be much out there about it.
Thanks, Evan. I did a Lycos search and found this website about it, Welcome Aboard The Indian Pacific, but I was also interested in SubTalkers views and experiences with Austrailian transit, if there are any Aussies out there...
BTW, is "Google" a search engine or something?
BTW, is "Google" a search engine or something?
Never mind, I found google.com easily and answered my own question.
Here is a link that would be very useful
http://www.gsr.com.au/
Yes, I'm Australian. The Company is making money by cutting down weekly trips from six to three and charging more than twice as much.
It's now a luxury ride. That's what you get when you privatise!
Allan
I did get the impression that the GSR trains were excursion rather than common carrier. Does Austrailia have any other inter-city passenger rail companies besides the Great Southern? What about rapid transit or light rail in large urban areas such as Sydney or Melbourne? Does the capital Canbera have any rail service to speak of?
Each state has it's own train system, VicRail in Victoria
and State Rail (http://www.staterail.nsw.gov.au/) in NSW are the major ones.
There is a Sydney-Melb run, Sydney Bris, Sydney-Canberra, Melb-Adeliade a search on the web site will give more details
There is a national rail freight corp
All capitals except for Canberra have extensive rapid transit, CityRail (http://www.cityrail.nsw.gov.au/) is like the LIRR, MNRR, Path and the subways all wrapped up in one sharing the same tracks, stations and admin. Very cool if you live in the outer suburbs of Sydney, you can jump on a intra-city train at a major stop and travel for a subway type price.
There are about 5 daily trains between Sydney and Canberra, but no suburban services exist in Canberra.
Melbourne also has an extensive network of European Style light rail to supplement its heavy rail, all part of one system.
Sydney has light rail run by a non-govt organization.
Allan
A real Austrialian here on Subtalk! What city do (or did) you live in? And how is the modal split -- all the cities have transit, but don't most Aussie's live in suburbs and drive?
Hi Larry,
I live here in New York, an occassional poster. I live in Alphabet City where my NY born wife was born and raised.
Ironically I came to NY to escape that suburban stuff, but I amd finding everything here apart from the subways unsatifying.
As for driving to work most people work in the CBD and parking and petrol is expensive by design (to save the environment, taxes etc)
so most a great majority of those CBD workers use public transport.
Those who work near their jobs would drive. I was born and breed in Canberra and I never had to drive, I rode a bicycle, Canberra was designed so you can ride around without riding on shitty roads.
Lots of people drive to stations, park in huge parking stations and then transit in. This is something New York needs.
Also, there is a heavy rail line to Sydney Airport, mostly underground and built recently.
Allan
Lots of people drive to stations, park in huge parking stations and then transit in. This is something New York needs.
Many of the suburban transit stations serving New York City have these too. "Metro Park" on NJ Transit, to name one. Even PATH has large parking lots near some of its stations. True, the subway does not have parking, but it was meant to serve city-dwelling pedestrians, and not suburbanites.
BTW, thanks for the info. on Down Under, and for correcting my spelling of Canberra.
Cheers!
(I live here in New York, an occassional poster. I live in Alphabet City where my NY born wife was born and raised. Ironically I came to NY to escape that suburban stuff, but I amd finding everything here
apart from the subways unsatifying.)
Funny to see an Aussie coming here, the way the are portraying it...as a paradise where all the women are sexy and all the men tell great jokes.
If you find life in Alphabet City unsatisfying, try Brooklyn. One of things you might miss is the presence of families and children in an urban environment. Manhattan is one of the most anti-child places in the world, but I'll bet there are lots of kids in Australia's downtowns. You'll find more kids, and thus more neighborhood spirit, across the river, but you've got to pick the neighborhood to time the wave. Northern Park Slope is now full of rich empty nesters, it's gotten so pricey.
There are more than one 'live' Australian on Subtalk!
Yes, we are proud of the job Cityrail is doing for the Olympics and visitors to Sydney - just a day before, Sept 12, we had three major incidents, 2 power failures plus a fire on a freight train but things since 9/13 have been perfect.
We have 25 8-car double-deck trains exclusively on the Olympic Shuttle trains which means ordinary services are much reduced but are running on set schedules not unlike your services in NY, ie A, B, C, D always make the same stops on the same route all day. This was not the case previously nor will be next week. MU cars in use are 95% of the fleet compared with the usual about 90% (compare NY subway at 85%) [just a little brag!]
Special Olympic train services stop on 10/1 and its back to normal. Anyone interested should look at Cityrail's web site also check out the special links to enthusiast sites.
A correction for Melbourne: its basically a traditional street-car system which has two short light-rail routes on former heavy rail lines which were electrified at 1,500v dc in the 1920s. Trams run at 600v dc.
Canberra is served by three return diesel mu car trains from Sydney per day, but otherwise inter-state rail services are a bit like Amtrak, infrequent, often late worked by UK style high-speed trains in New South Wales.
The new LIRR double-deck stainless-steel cars are based on our double-deck cars, as I believe our Sydney company tendered for that job but was taken over in the middle of it, and sold the designs to Kawasaki (I believe). Hope you like them.
For what it's worth, here's a few more gratuitous Aust transit facts
As well as Sydney and Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth also have electified rail transit systems. Power supply on all systems is overhead. Adelaide has diesel multiple units. Hobart, the Tasmanian State Capital, had a rudimentary dmu system until the early seventies. Except for heritage specials, no passenger trains now run in Tasmania.
The operation of Melbourne's tram/lightrail/heavy rail system is no longer run by a single authority. The former State-operated Metropolitan Transit Authority (I think that was it full name, it was always refered to colloquially as "The Met") was, as we say here, "outsourced" by a previous State Government that some people might describe as "Thatcherite". Melbourne's heavy rail is now operated by two private companies, Bayside Trains and Hillside Trains. Similarly, the former Met tram/light rail system is now operated by Swanson Trams and Yarra Trams. Whether this is a good thing or not is a matter of ongoing debate.
i
I was in Both Sydney and Melbourne this past July, and rode both systems. Both Melbournes Train and LRT are great. Melbourne also has a private company that uses the old W Model Trams, that takes trips serving a full dinner. Took it for $60 AUD(about $35.00 USD) and the food was great. The City Lines and Hillside lines, if they were not marked, you could not tell the difference, the same with the Trams. All are ran under the Met. You can buy a daily, weekly, and monthly pass and it is good on all trams, busses, and trains. Also point to point tickets. Took one train out to all places. BRIGHTON BEACH. I made a posting about this in July, only 20 minutes from Downtown Melbourne. More on Sydney some other time. Got some good videos, plus bought one on Melbourne by Tram, which is a line by line tour of the Melbourne Trams, but a little dated, Since all Trams are now modern A B and Z Models.
The Sydney Cityrail Websit (www.cityrail.nsw.gov.au) has a link entitled "About our Trains". This provides full colour front and side elevations and seating plans of all the current Cityrail rolling stock. I've never seen this on any other official website before, and it's worth a look.
Incidentally, Cityrail - previously under fire for a number of derailments and one serious 7 fatality accident last year - is currently congratulating itself on the way it has coped with the Olympic rail traffic to and from the venues, and from anecdotal evidence from people I know who have ridden the system, they seem to have done a good job.
When I was in Sydney in July they fired 6 drivers for under the influence. On the extreme of the Harbour Bridge, the trains also run, but not much of a view from the trains to the Harbour and Skyline, Better View on The Manny B to Manhatten
Each state has it's own train system, VicRail in Victoria
and State Rail (http://www.staterail.nsw.gov.au/) in NSW are the major ones.
There is a Sydney-Melb run, Sydney Bris, Sydney-Canberra, Melb-Adeliade a search on the web site will give more details
There is a national rail freight corp
All capitals except for Canberra have extensive rapid transit, CityRail (http://www.cityrail.nsw.gov.au/) is like the LIRR, MNRR, Path and the subways all wrapped up in one sharing the same tracks, stations and admin. Very cool if you live in the outer suburbs of Sydney, you can jump on a intra-city train at a major stop and travel for a subway type price.
There are about 5 daily trains between Sydney and Canberra, but no suburban services exist in Canberra.
Melbourne also has an extensive network of European Style light rail to supplement its heavy rail, all part of one system.
Sydney has light rail run by a non-govt organization.
Allan
A real Austrialian here on Subtalk! What city do (or did) you live in? And how is the modal split -- all the cities have transit, but don't most Aussie's live in suburbs and drive?
Hi Larry,
I live here in New York, an occassional poster. I live in Alphabet City where my NY born wife was born and raised.
Ironically I came to NY to escape that suburban stuff, but I amd finding everything here apart from the subways unsatifying.
As for driving to work most people work in the CBD and parking and petrol is expensive by design (to save the environment, taxes etc)
so most a great majority of those CBD workers use public transport.
Those who work near their jobs would drive. I was born and breed in Canberra and I never had to drive, I rode a bicycle, Canberra was designed so you can ride around without riding on shitty roads.
Lots of people drive to stations, park in huge parking stations and then transit in. This is something New York needs.
Also, there is a heavy rail line to Sydney Airport, mostly underground and built recently.
Allan
Lots of people drive to stations, park in huge parking stations and then transit in. This is something New York needs.
Many of the suburban transit stations serving New York City have these too. "Metro Park" on NJ Transit, to name one. Even PATH has large parking lots near some of its stations. True, the subway does not have parking, but it was meant to serve city-dwelling pedestrians, and not suburbanites.
BTW, thanks for the info. on Down Under, and for correcting my spelling of Canberra.
Cheers!
(I live here in New York, an occassional poster. I live in Alphabet City where my NY born wife was born and raised. Ironically I came to NY to escape that suburban stuff, but I amd finding everything here
apart from the subways unsatifying.)
Funny to see an Aussie coming here, the way the are portraying it...as a paradise where all the women are sexy and all the men tell great jokes.
If you find life in Alphabet City unsatisfying, try Brooklyn. One of things you might miss is the presence of families and children in an urban environment. Manhattan is one of the most anti-child places in the world, but I'll bet there are lots of kids in Australia's downtowns. You'll find more kids, and thus more neighborhood spirit, across the river, but you've got to pick the neighborhood to time the wave. Northern Park Slope is now full of rich empty nesters, it's gotten so pricey.
There are more than one 'live' Australian on Subtalk!
Yes, we are proud of the job Cityrail is doing for the Olympics and visitors to Sydney - just a day before, Sept 12, we had three major incidents, 2 power failures plus a fire on a freight train but things since 9/13 have been perfect.
We have 25 8-car double-deck trains exclusively on the Olympic Shuttle trains which means ordinary services are much reduced but are running on set schedules not unlike your services in NY, ie A, B, C, D always make the same stops on the same route all day. This was not the case previously nor will be next week. MU cars in use are 95% of the fleet compared with the usual about 90% (compare NY subway at 85%) [just a little brag!]
Special Olympic train services stop on 10/1 and its back to normal. Anyone interested should look at Cityrail's web site also check out the special links to enthusiast sites.
A correction for Melbourne: its basically a traditional street-car system which has two short light-rail routes on former heavy rail lines which were electrified at 1,500v dc in the 1920s. Trams run at 600v dc.
Canberra is served by three return diesel mu car trains from Sydney per day, but otherwise inter-state rail services are a bit like Amtrak, infrequent, often late worked by UK style high-speed trains in New South Wales.
The new LIRR double-deck stainless-steel cars are based on our double-deck cars, as I believe our Sydney company tendered for that job but was taken over in the middle of it, and sold the designs to Kawasaki (I believe). Hope you like them.
For what it's worth, here's a few more gratuitous Aust transit facts
As well as Sydney and Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth also have electified rail transit systems. Power supply on all systems is overhead. Adelaide has diesel multiple units. Hobart, the Tasmanian State Capital, had a rudimentary dmu system until the early seventies. Except for heritage specials, no passenger trains now run in Tasmania.
The operation of Melbourne's tram/lightrail/heavy rail system is no longer run by a single authority. The former State-operated Metropolitan Transit Authority (I think that was it full name, it was always refered to colloquially as "The Met") was, as we say here, "outsourced" by a previous State Government that some people might describe as "Thatcherite". Melbourne's heavy rail is now operated by two private companies, Bayside Trains and Hillside Trains. Similarly, the former Met tram/light rail system is now operated by Swanson Trams and Yarra Trams. Whether this is a good thing or not is a matter of ongoing debate.
i
I was in Both Sydney and Melbourne this past July, and rode both systems. Both Melbournes Train and LRT are great. Melbourne also has a private company that uses the old W Model Trams, that takes trips serving a full dinner. Took it for $60 AUD(about $35.00 USD) and the food was great. The City Lines and Hillside lines, if they were not marked, you could not tell the difference, the same with the Trams. All are ran under the Met. You can buy a daily, weekly, and monthly pass and it is good on all trams, busses, and trains. Also point to point tickets. Took one train out to all places. BRIGHTON BEACH. I made a posting about this in July, only 20 minutes from Downtown Melbourne. More on Sydney some other time. Got some good videos, plus bought one on Melbourne by Tram, which is a line by line tour of the Melbourne Trams, but a little dated, Since all Trams are now modern A B and Z Models.
The Sydney Cityrail Websit (www.cityrail.nsw.gov.au) has a link entitled "About our Trains". This provides full colour front and side elevations and seating plans of all the current Cityrail rolling stock. I've never seen this on any other official website before, and it's worth a look.
Incidentally, Cityrail - previously under fire for a number of derailments and one serious 7 fatality accident last year - is currently congratulating itself on the way it has coped with the Olympic rail traffic to and from the venues, and from anecdotal evidence from people I know who have ridden the system, they seem to have done a good job.
When I was in Sydney in July they fired 6 drivers for under the influence. On the extreme of the Harbour Bridge, the trains also run, but not much of a view from the trains to the Harbour and Skyline, Better View on The Manny B to Manhatten
It's the Indian-Pacific Railroad. I don't know much about it, but what I do know is that it has the longest stretch of straight track in the world.
They recently had a 2 hour episode on channel 13 on the entire australian train system(sorry, I forgot the name of the show but you can try calling WNET). I believe that the longest stretch of straight track in the world is between Geelong and Perth(about 300 miles). It was an Australian production so maybe that will help in identifying this show(they were selling VHS tapes)
Also about the Sydney, Melboure Subway-Commutter Rail NO RAILFAN WINDOWS
It is all over the news & even on my yahoo e mail page how the los angeles metro strike is going nowhere fast, will last a long time.
Nobody cares here especially the MEDIA print & electronic about the
massive suffering of the working poor here & the transit dependants
& or challenged & how they are doing!!
I guess i am somewhat to blame for this too !! reason ?
My 1982 chevrolet caprice wagon still runs & is tagged & legal!!
I am part of the problem too i am a ( raggedy ) car owner !!
man you should see the abandoned train & bus stops !!!
The problem with the strike from a union point of view: in most strikes the company loses money when it is closed down. In this strike the longer it lasts the better off the MTA is.
Have they laid off non-union employees, since no revenue is coming in?
Good point Larry, the best union strike is one that almost doesn't happen. If the threat of a strike doesn't get both parties to agree, then the union strikes & causes pain right away (stop all deliveries, make it hard for non-striking employees to get to work, etc.) If that doesn't move things to conclusion, then it will likely be a long strike where EVERYONE looses.
A long strike happens either because one party is much stronger then the other or one won't give on some issue/group of issues. Notice that it can be EITHER side that is the reason that the strike continues.
At Pan Am the strikes were short, but in retrospec I think the unions were too strong there, not that it was all THEIR fault that Pan Am went out of business, becuse it was a number things, especially the fact that the Federal Government forgot why it was important to have a American flag carrier flying all over the World (i.e. they made deals with foreign carriers that hurt Pan Am's bottom line and gave them no way to make up the cash hit that resulted). I'm sure you don't care to here any more about this ... my point is that I "enjoyed" the strikes at Pan Am (as a union member we GOT them, as a boss I enjoyed doing their work while they were outside. The strike was over in a few hours/days so I didn't get hurt in my wallet).
This strike in LA isn't any "fun" for anyone, least of all the customers.
Mr t__:^)
The Los Angeles Times has given extensive coverage on the strike, particularly as it affects subway and bus riders. Today's Times on the web has a good story on the lack of progress with negotiations. (http://www.latimes.com). An interesting sidebar in the print edition:
Top Pay for Drivers (hourly wage) in Major Cities:
1) Boston - 23.37
2) Washington, DC - 22.10
3) Santa Clara County (CA) - 21.51
4) New York City - 21.36
5) San Francisco - 21.26
6) Los Angeles MTA - 20.72
7) Chicago - 20.01
8) Sacramento, CA - 19.81
9) Philadelphia - 19.45
10) New Jersey Transit - 18.83
11) Orange County (CA) - 17.71
Data from Los Angeles Times; 09/27/2000
MTA management's perpetual bleating about operators' high pay can be put into a little perspective.
(Top pay for bus drivers as per LA Times)
Looks low, based on data I have seen, unless other things (night differential, overtime) jack the pay up. I thought the best paid bus drivers and T/Os in the TA made in the 50s at least. Heck, the AVERAGE pay at the TA is that high.
Which raises an interesting question --- who eats the cost of "peaking" at the NYCT, the workers or the taxpayers? Do the extras required for rush hour service work a split shift or part time, or are they on the clock straight through.
Here is the L.A. Times story George referred to. Study Calls Into Question MTA Claims on Labor Cost It debunks some of the early MTA claims about how high the drivers' pay is.
Another L.A. Times story MTA Strike Talks Collapse; No End to Walkout Seen points out that no settlement is near, and the mayor, rather than urging give and take bargaining, has come out in support of the MTA position..
Tom
The Los Angeles Times is finally taking an interest in the strike (eight articles today), and in spite of their conservative tendencies seem to be taking the mayor to task on the editorial pages for his part in prolonging the strike. A front page story today (9/28/00) has the union claiming the MTA is trying to get rid of its bus lines (and the union) and therefore not interested in good faith bargaining.
The following link takes you to a list of stories regarding the strike and you can link to the individual stories from there.
Tom
I finally got my scrapyard photos up, look at http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/ in the 'scrap' directory.
-Hank.
Good work. I see you found Nimco Shredding. "Coaches go in but they don't come out."
Very nice, thanks for sharing ... I realy liked the "Connect the Arielle" ... is that a route map ?
Mr t__:^)
Could be...never tried to trace synapse pathways before :)
(her hair is growing back nicely, BTW)
-Hank
Great shots Hank. Thanks for sharing them with us!
Hank, those were really great photos. If you can keep it that would really be nice.
They were great photos, but I found the scrapping of the RTS buses kind of...sad. I'm not a big bus fan, but to see buses which I always thought of as being new and ride every day being relegated to the scrap heap (seemingly intact, windows and electronic displays in place, but probably falling apart internally) tugs at the heart strings.
On a subway note, what was the R-44 doing there?
10/13/2000
[On a subway note, what was the R-44 doing there? ]
Probably meeting the same fate as those RTS buses!
Bill "Newkirk"
The pix of the Verrazano were great, any of Miss New York or Gold Star Mother.
avid
Sorry, before my time...
-Hank
There will be a chat tonight, Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at Subtalklive.com. There will be NO chat this Saturday. This is not a permanent schedule change so there may still be a chat next week on Saturday.
Tonight's chat starts at 7PM and ends at Midnight. Please come at any time during this period. You may come at 8, you may come at 11. If nobody is there, PLEASE wait at least five minutes for somebody to come. If nobody does, then you are welcome to leave. Please grant any security priviliges, my program is NOT a password sniffer, virus, trojan horse or anything else that screws with your computer or steals your data.
NOTE: The chatroom will automatically give you the name Subtalker, or Subtalker1, 2 etc. To change your name, please use the blank and button provided at the TOP of the chat window (do not use it to chat).
I'll be in at 9pm because I have to go watch slides for my History of Science class.
I'll also try to get on around 9pm.
You can also use a regular IRC client, go to server "javairc.mircx.com", channel #metrocard
-Dave
It's #metrocard, not #subtalk.
oops! i'll go back and fix it.
Can you then delete the two (now three with this one) messages downthread of it since they no longer make any sense?
Thank you, a 5 hour noitice will allow me to clear up my schedule to be ther... NOT!!
If you want people to come don't make it last minute. I can't be there this Saturday due to the New Year. Sometime next week with a little more notice and I would love to join.
The nicest entrance that comes to mind is the Lexington Avenue and 53rd St. Entrance . The fountains and Plaze settings are only rivaled by the Bowling Green entrance.
avid
For me it would probably be Roosevelt Island. From the waiting area, you see a great view of the Queensboro Bridge and the Hudson River. It has to be the best view from within fare control of a subway station (not el). The token clerk gets to look at that all day.
Er...the Hudson River? The token booth would have to be on top of one of the Queensborough Bridge towers to pull that one off.
You mean the East River.
filthymess.com. That's all I have to say.
-Hank
Yuck! That picture of you-know-what at the 2nd Avenue station put the exclamation point at the end of that sentence.
Someone's got too much time on their hands if they find THAT sort of site.....
Actually, I heard an ad for it on WNEW-FM last night.
-Hank
Well there alot of places for filth. Downtown Glen Cove-I've seen used condoms, needles, and urine stains by the bus stop there.
LI Bus-Lots of stuck on gum on seat bottoms and floors.
Just to name a few.
And Filthy Mess isn't so bad after all. You want bad, check out rotten.com. NYPress, in its current "Best of" issue, selected rotten.com as the most uplifting website. Dunno if "uplifting" is quite the right term, but rotten.com is definitely something.
You should mention that rotten.com is not for those with sensitive stomachs. For a more uplifting and eruditious website
www.forgotten-ny.com
is the site of choice.
You should mention that rotten.com is not for those with sensitive stomachs. For a more uplifting and eruditious website
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's sort of hard to think of rotten.com and forgotten-ny at the same time. I mean, talk about mega-differences ...
Actually, while we're on the subject of differences, probably the most important one is that the photos on forgotten-ny are real. The same cannot be said, alas, for some of the photos on rotten.com. In particular, the infamous "motorcycle" picture is likely faked.
I went as far as the main page = the descriptions were enough for me.
Combine this with the stuff going on NightLine (surgery!) ....
The worst smell I ever smelled underground was at the SOUTH end of the Chambers St/West B'way IRT station. Absolutely PUTRID.
wayne
The worst smell I ever smelled underground was at the SOUTH end of the Chambers St/West B'way IRT station. Absolutely PUTRID.
PATH's distinctive smell deserves special mention. It's not an offensive odor, if not what one would call pleasant, but it's found nowhere else and seems to defy all explanation.
"PATH's distinctive smell"
Essence of MacAdoo.
That's obviously NOT funny but at the same time is IS kind of amusing.
The one that shows the gum situation at Times Square - they should have seen the one in the corridor connecting Atlantic Avenue IRT and Pacific Street BMT! I've rarely seen anything quite as disgusting as that mess. A filthy beach of gooey gobs of gum. And overflowing garbage bins can be seen, complete with squirming rats, at the south end of the Queens-bound Queens Plaza IND station.
wayne
And I have seen number 2 (s***) in subway stations. I saw it in a corner of the Grand st station, and a Canal street underpass on the Broadway line.
All this human waste probably comes from the homeless and bums that live in the subway. It's a good idea to stay as far away from them as you can, since they are probably covered in filth as well.
They missed downtown Flushing, which has the worst street filth. Gum covers the sidewalks, which are covered in newspapers, food waste, and
discarded metrocards. And the gutters are clogged with waste and papers too. Then add the dumping of resteruant waste and the place stinks to high heaven, especially on a warm and calm day.
>>>They missed downtown Flushing, which has the worst street filth. Gum covers the sidewalks, which
are covered in newspapers, food waste, and
discarded metrocards. And the gutters are clogged with waste and papers too. Then add the
dumping of resteruant waste and the place stinks to high heaven, especially on a warm and calm
day. <<<
I am well aware of the stench of Flushing. The downtown area has become extremely overcrowded. The smell comes mainly from the inadequate disposal of cooking oil.
Another spot that absolutely reeks in the summer is the SE corner of 7th Avenue and 34th Street. There's a concentration of fast food restaurants there, and the lard or whatever they use gets dumped out with the regular garbage and pervades the air. It has even gotten into the north end of the uptown IRT platform....
www.forgotten.com
Used cooking oil should be recycled into diesel fuel. In the past few years the verious Public service channels and the Discovery channel have had segments showing how both peanut oil or vegetable oil has been recycled {cleaned , filtered and mixed with fossilfuel } for use in diesel powered vehicles in Japan . Any one have anything new?
If its not being re-used its a crime, considering the resent rise in the cost of Crude oil.
New slogan "You cooked your own fries, now drive 'em!"
re use oil from the Kentucky fried chichen, Big Mac fries, onion rings, fried fish , Chinese and other Asian food joints. Clean up the environment alittle and get a second bang for our buck. Every greasie cloud has a Mile-per-gallon lining.
This should be on "HIS HONORS" quality of life re-cycling list.
avid
Funny you should mention recycling cooking oil.
They did that at Ohio State University back in the 70s for their shuttlebus fleet (might even still be doing it today). Recycled beef tallow was blended with diesel fuel and called "Buckfry".
If you think that's bad, try navigating the fishwater stink of Canal Street - add thereto the cooking oil and it's enough to gag a goat.
wayne
After close examination (I should get a life!) the thing looks like a VERY-LONG single piece! And also in a way it looks like a flipped "F" so whoever planted this must have done quite a job!
Heh heh. I liked the picture of the crab shells. Who indeed would be eating crabs on the subway? What's next, Lobster Thermidor?
...au Crevettes with a mornay sauce garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.
Seeing those two words reminded me of the above line from a Monty Python skit. Incidentally this is the same skit that the internet term "spam" got its name.
Who can forget that classic Spam skit? I still wonder how Graham Chapman managed to belt out "I don't like Spam!" in that Pepperpot falsetto.
Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, etc.
And now for something completely different....
Its....
No. 3
The Larch
And now for something completely different. A sick passenger on an F train.
"The Larch"???? That's the Liberty Bell March by John Philip Sousa.
The Larch isn't the name of a song, its the name of a tree. If you had paid atention to your "How to recognize trees from quite a long ways off" course you'd know that.
Then why did you link to the song when you were treed, and what connection between the Libery Bell March and trees is there? Lets see: trees. Those big green in summer things. Birds and squirrels nest in 'em, kids climb them, and in autumn they shed their leaves, which turn bight colors, fall on the tracks and make it hard to stop.
Since I couldn't take the "How to recognize trees from quite a long ways off" course because it wasn't offered. I do know the difference between trees like maples and oaks and the like and evergreens.
Don't worry about it. It's all related to "Monty Python's Flying Circus", and to those unfamiliar, it's totally meaningless.
"It's..."
Liberty Bell March
"The Larch"
"Crunchy Frog"
etc
All meaningless.
And then there's the Lumberjack Song.
One of the sketches in a Monty Python episode consisted of you seeing slides of trees so that you could recognize them. Unfortunately it was the same slide over and over again. It went something like this.
Number 3...The Larch...The Larch...and now...number 3...the larch...the larch...and now...(some other sketch)
All with one of those old time 2 slide, sliding block projectors. They did this several times throughout the episode. As the closing credits were rolling to the tune of the "Monty Python March" (it was renamed because the show made it famous) John Clese pops in again with "Number 3...The Larch...The larch." Does this answer your question?
Spam, spam, spam, spam.........
How quickly one forgets.
For penance I must watch "Life of Brian" 17 times without stopping.
I have sinned........
Make sure you also sing the Lumberjack song:)
Simon
Swindon UK
You beat me to it.:-)
I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day, etc.
SPAM!! AH, THERE'S A GOOD WOODY WORD!!
In my opinion it sounds sorta tiney. Anyone want to brush up on their banter in Subtalk Live?
Or have an argument.
No he shouldn't!
why aren't there any metal bumpers on the R142 and R142a's?
and are they gonna retire the redbirds on all lines?
and when are they gonna put the R110B,R110 back in service?
??any metal bumpers on the R142 and R142a's??
Bumpers? You mean the anticlimbers?
There must be something, even if it is more intergal to the car. Unless they are counting on the couplers to hold better or something.
Elias
The Insurance Institute of America has found that in 5 MPH crash tests, subway cars with metal bumpers sustain 42% more damage than subway cars with plastic bumpers. besides, the TA finds keeping the chrome polished on the metal bumpers to be too costly. On the average, subway cars with metal bumpers also weigh 16% more than those with plastic bumpers.
I was wondering if anyone knew what on earth is going on with Stratford and Paoli. Stratford station is a wonderful little 1876? building that was built at some exposition in Philly and then moved to Stratford. On my way past it on my Chicago trip I noticed that it looks kinda under rehabilitation and one side is completely removed ( you can see inside) and it sorta looks gutted by fire. Any info about this?
Also what happened to Paoli. I always thought Paoli was like the flagship station on the line. The ticket office is open 7 days a week (only one besides the 3 centre city stations) and it was the terminus of the line. Well on my trip past the station looked to be a shaddow of its former self. Most of the extra long (6 locations or more) platforms have been abandonned. The little passenger shelters are falling appart and the squat brick buildings look closed and in disrepair. Furthermore the paoli yard is gone and the shop lies abandonned. Paoli yard had a duckunder for easy access and it was so PCB contaminated it wouldn't matter what else SEPTA dumped there. Why would they move to Fraizer? More "Superfunds" for the region? Wouldn't thorndale have made more sence? You have a huge open area w/ pre-existing epectrifacation poles/wires and you don't need to buy a new property. It could also serve the whole line and THORN tower handles the traffic.
IIRC, the Strafford station building was the Japanese pavillion at Philly's centennial exposition (world's fair)in 1876. It suffered a serious fire a year or two ago and is being repaired.
I saw something about the Paoli stop that indicated the whole area
would be rebuilt and enlarged. The area would be made into a "rail
transportation center".
The last posts were correct. Strafford is being restored and part of the project involved actually rolling the station building away from the tracks for a period of time. Just before the bids went out for restoration, it suffered a fire (something fairly common at SEPTA rail stations - a reason many of them no longer have station buildings). Paoli is supposed to become a transportation center, with expanded parking and off-street bus capabilities. The new center is to go on the site of the old yard, now being cleaned up of PCB's. I recall even in the early 70's the long Amtrak trains that would stop at Paoli and passengers who would be assigned to the different boarding 'locations' for specific cars. No longer.
Having been without a car for some time due to its having a cracked cylinder head, I have had ample opportunity to ride the "High Speed Line" and here is the state of its fleet:
3086 At East Boston for Rebuild - Due Mid 2001
3230 In Service - Good Car
3232 In Service - Good Car
3234 In Service - Needs Work - Plugs - Very jerky starts and stops
3238 In Service - Good Car
3254 Back In Service - Spent almost 2 weeks on the pit
3260 At East Boston for Rebuild - Due November 2000
3262 In Service - Noisy but Runs Well
3263 Out of Service - Some equipment stripped - probable next rebuild
3265 In Service - Rebuilt 1999
3268 In Service - Rebuilt 2000
All unrebuilt cars are painted Green with White around the windows, Gray or Silver roof, and Black Trim. Interiors are Cream with stainless wainscoting and Black panels at the front.
Rebuilt cars are Traction Orange below the belt rail and Cream above with the belt rail itself Maroon. Trim is Black including the anticlimbers and couplers, roofs are Silver. Interiors are as above with Maroon replacing the Black.
The orange paint scheme is very close to the original in which the cars were delivered between March 1945 and May 1946. The remaining cars represent three separate orders from Pullman, and all were previously "rebuilt" in the early 1980s. Current work includes extensive underframe repairs, stainless steel stepwells, rewiring and complete mechanical overhaul.
The orange paint is very visible at night and conveys a much warmer appearance than the green.
Stations etc.
Mattapan station is located east of the intersection of Blue Hill Av. with River St. and is three tracks wide with a loop on the west side. Outbound cars arrive on the northernmost track while inbound cars load and depart on the middle track. The southerly track is used for pulloffs which pass through the station eastbound and round a second loop to enter the ready track or pit track. A switch also allows cars on the southerly track to access the inbound main but this is seldom used. Cars from the ready and pit tracks enter the main line through a third loop which connects only to the middle track at the station. There is no provision for return to the yard.
Mattapan station itself is a false facade similar to the complete facilities at Fields Corner and Ashmont (and the former one at Andrew) facing west with a roof extending about 40 feet east. A longer canopy covers the space between the outbound track and the north busway which serves routes 24 Wakefield, 27 Ashmont via River St., 30 Cummins Hwy., 33 Dedham Line via River St., 245 Quincy and a privately operated mini-bus to Canton. The south busway passes west of the loop and aouth of the yard tracks, looping between the yard and pit to its loading area between the station and yard. It serves three routes, 28 Ruggles via Dudley, 29 Jackson Sq. via Seaver, and 31 Forest Hills via Morton, and has no canopy.
A small repair shelter is being constructed over the tracks at the pit to facilitate winter car work.
Leaving Mattapan the tracks curve slightly to the right and cross the Neponset River into Milton. The next station, Capen St. is a grade crossing of a cul-de-sac with the inbound and outbound platforms staggered to allow the stop to be made before crossing the road. There is no crossing protection, and the stop is mandatory. A small shelter is provided on the inbound platform only.
Leaving Capen St. the line curves to the left and enters one of its longest straightaways, along the south bank of the Neponset. About halfway down the tangent is Valley Rd. Station which features two opposing platforms of similar length with a canopy over the inbound platform. A long stairway leads up to the intersection of Eliot St. and Valley Rd.
Leaving Valley Rd. the line continues straight for several hundred feet, and then curves to the right entering Central Av. Station. Central Av bridges the Neponset River and ends at River St. in Boston, where there is a Shopping Mall with Star Market, Osco Drug, a bank and several other stores. Numerous small businesses are nearby on both sides of the river. The line crosses Central Av. at grade, and again there is no protection, so a full stop is required before crossing in both directions. Both station platforms are west of the crossing, requiring outbound cars to stop twice. As usual there is a canopy over the inbound platform only. Connections can be made with the 240 bus to Ashmont or Randolph, the previously mentioned 27 bus, or the Brockton Area Transit (BAT) Route 12 to Brockton
Leaving Central Av. the line is relatively straight rising along the side of a hill before descending into Milton Station. A former freight track right-of-way begins at the east side of Central Av. and parallels the trolley line for about a half mile. A siding crossing a bridge over the Neponset, which served the Baker Chocolate Factory, can be seen on the left.
The intersection of Adams and Eliot Sts. occupies a long bridge, recently rebuilt, over the tracks, and a stairway on the east side leads down to the inbound platform of Milton Station. Due to the bridge, grade and the proximity of the stairway, inbound cars must make a full stop entering the station. The Baker plant, now mostly redeveloped, dominates the area on the Boston side of the river with its four story brick buildings. Just beyond lies Pierce Sq. a thriving local business district. To the south is Milton Village, another cluster of small shops and proffessional offices. Passengers can exit at grade to this area or climb the stairs to Adams St.
Leaving Milton the tracks curve slightly to the left and pass the remains of a warehouse which was destroyed in a major fire in 1999, and cross a bridge over the Neponset which is flanked by abandoned railroad bridges on both sides. To the south can be seen a yacht club and its flotilla of pleasure craft, while the Baker plant still dominates the scene to the north. Once across the river into Boston the tracks pass under Medway St. and enter Butler St. Station. Butler Station has a long island platform with two walkways across the tracks to the two ends of Butler St. which is divided in two by the rail line. Both walkways also serve as mini-platforms and sit on the old freight rights-of way. Butler Station originally had an overhead walkway with stairs down to the island platform, but this was removed in an early 1980s rebuilding. A modern looking gable roof, was grafted onto the old canopy leaving a strangely mismatched piece of architecture.
From Butler, the trolley tracks rise and cross an overpass through which once passed the northerly freight spur. They curve to the left and enter Cedar Grove Cemetary. This is the most scenic point on the line with the Neponset Marshes with the winding river to the south and the garden cemetary to the north. As the tracks descend from the overpass, they enter a cut which bisects the graveyard. A private bridge connects the two parts of the cemetary, followed by a short left hand curve, and another bridge taking the line under Adams St. to Cedar Grove Station. The stop lies at the instesection of Fellsway and Milton Sts. and the inbound platform opens directly onto Fellsway St. A passage from the outbound platform leads to the end of another local street, and overlooks the Codman Yard of the Red Line.
Leaving Cedar Grove the line continues in a straight line to Ashmont passing the Codman Yard on the left and crossing Gallivan Blvd. on a bridge shared by the Rapid Transit yard tracks. The turnaround area for the Red Line occupies the left side from Gallivan to Ashmont Station, where the tracks rise and separate, being joined by the station busway at the top of the viaduct, where another full stop is required. The inbound car descends into the station, discharges its passengers, and makes the loop to the north, mingling with the buses before entering its own bay on the west side of the station,where it will load for its return to Mattapan. At only 2.2 miles the line is one of the shortest existing trolley lines, but it is surprisingly scenic considering its location on the border of a major city.
Hope You Enjoyed This...
Gerry
Gerry,
I just rode the Mattapan-Ashmont Line today for the first time in quite awhile! But for the very first time, I got to ride a rebuilt car (#3265). I must say that this line is probably the most charming on the T, and hats off to the rebuilders....they did a fantastic job!! E-mail me privately; maybe we can ride together sometime soon. -Nick
The Boston T Party group rode #3234 (non-rebuilt) and #3265 (re-built) when we were their in July. The street crossing at Capen offers some very nice photo ops, as well as the Ashmont station were you can get a PCC & a Red line subway in one shot (we did).
BTW, we went there first that day, on purpose.
We also met the guy who's in charge of the re-build program ... how lucky can a railfan get ?
Mr t__:^)
Just to clarify for someone not super familiar with the Boston system, are these all PCCs, or are some of these the Kinkei-Sharo (sp?) cars?
They're all PCCs.
Pictures are available on the NE Transit site.
The L-O-N-G answer is: Mattapan to Ashmount trolley line is connected only to the Red line at Ashmount and is just PCCs as Todd said.
The Green line(s) have the new trolleys, some street running & some underground. In addition these new trolleys are artriculated (two cars hooked togather) mfg. by Boeing (the oldest), Kinki, and the problematic Type 8. They are fun to ride in and speed along at a pritty good pace as traffic permits.
This past July the 3/4 Ton Crew's best memory was when they had to manually throw the switch in the street so that a Boston College car to get to the Reservoir yard. The ride on the temporary tracks near North Station wasn't bad either.
Mr t__:^)
On the maps the High Speed line is listed as a RED line. But the truth is it's operators are all from the Green line because of their special training Trolley Operations and street running.
On the "T-Party" we talked to a Red Liner T/O who was an instructor, while transfer between the subway lines is allowed (even the blue with their overhead A/C) total retraining is required to move to/from the Green Line and it is not often done (you also loose pick rank crossing over green/other lines).
The Mattapan-Ashmont Line first became an orphan in 1955 when the Mattapan to Egleston car line was bustituted. At that time a mix of Type 5s and All Electric (3197-3221) PCC cars were assigned, and the operators continued to be assigned from the Arborway, while the cars were assigned to Bennett St. in Cambridge, and hauled back and forth through the subway with a special adapter coupler. The last Type 5s were retired in 1958, and PCC cars became the only equipment. At the same time Bennett St. became a trackless trolley facility, and the pit was constructed at Mattapan to allow running repairs there. The official car assignment became Arborway, and it remained so until 1985. Heavy repairs were conducted at the Eliot Shops for a while, but by the mid 1960s, even this practice had ended. The arrival of the higher numbered Dallas Cars (3330-3246) resulted in these cars being trucked to Mattapan and the All Electrics becomming MU cars and being assigned physically to Arborway.
Over the next twenty years there were some car swaps between Arborway and Mattapan, always involving the same two fleets and usually ending up with the Dallas cars going back to the High Speed Line. By the early 1970s two Dallas cars had departed Mattapan (3339 wrecked and 3342 flooded) and 3197 and 3212 were assigned to replace them. Both cars were there to make the numbers work and neither was used frequently. They usually sat on the loading ramp, pole down, behind the snow plows.
The fleet started to shrink in the late 1970s, as the all electrics were scrapped and the Dallas cars began to wear out. 3332 was reassigned to Arborway to fill in there. A coat of red paint improved the cars appearance, but did nothing for the reliability. In 1978, Boeing LRVs took over the shuttles to Brigham Circle and Northeastern, freeing most of the low numbered Dallas cars and 3332 to go back to Mattapan.
Finally, in 1981, the line was shut down for a 6 month rebuilding, and the Dallas Cars were retired. When the line reopened, a dozen rebuilt wartime cars were assigned to Mattapan, with all of the remaining PCC cars now at Arborway. These cars remained there for about three years, after which they were swapped for picture window cars, in order to beef up the reliability of the very visible Arborway Line which needed trains, and isolate the cantankerous picture windows as singles at Mattapan.
The MBTA threw in the towel on the Arborway Line in December of 1985, and began concentrating the most recent rebuilds at Mattapan. Since the remaining part of the line to Brigham Cir. or Heath St. was now being operated from Reservoir, the Mattapan operators were transferred there too. By February 1986, the Mattapan fleet was in its present state, though some cars were swapped after a wreck. Most of the spare PCCs were stored until the early 1990s. At that time the rebuilts were sold as complete units and the picture window cars were junked. Three cars remained at the Arborway Carhouse, 3228, another wreck victim, and 3241 and 3264 which looked like the rebuilds but weren't and so fell through the cracks of the scrapping program.
With the MBTA committed to keeping the PCC cars in the late 1990s, the present rebuild program began. The three three cars at Arborway were inspected, and deemed to be too far gone to be worth the effort. They were heavily stripped, including the cutting off of some hard to repair body sections, and junked in 2000 when the Arborway Carhouse was torn down to make way for an (ugh!) bus garage. The 11 remaining cars are being rebuilt to better than new strandards, and will probably end up lasting upwards of 75 years. Not bad for cheap wartime construction!
And that, in a nutshell, is the history of the line and its cars in the PCC era.
Do you have any specific history of PCCs 3204, 3214 and 3216 that I can add to their web page? http://tmny.org/tmnymbta.html
All three cars were delivered between June and August of 1946. This group 3197 to 3221 was changed from an odrer of standard wartime mu cars to single post-war all electrics to gain Pullman some experience in building the new design. Original assignments were South Boston (North Point) and Cambridge (Bennett St.). The cars were disliked by operators because the brakes released too quietly and quickly making them accident-prone. They were the mainastay of the Andrew-Dudley and Broadway-North Station lines until the Broadway Bridge was condemned in the early 1950s. From then to the end of service in South Boston in 1953, the cars were restricted to the Dudley Line, and some migrated to Arborway. During the mid fifties the fleet was split between Arborway and Bennett St. with many of the Bennett St. cars winding up at Mattapan. while the Arborway cars served the Tremont St. line.
As noted above, the Dallas cars replaced the All Electrics at Mattapan in 1960, and they were withdrawn from service and converted to MU for the Arborway Line. The MU conversion was not too successful, and much tinkering was required to get the cars to operate properly. The problems were resolved by the mid sixties and for the next ten years the cars mostly served on Huntington Av. with one or two assigned to Mattapan. The fleet started to dwindle in 1975, and by 1978 they were all retired, with 3211 the last car in service. In addition to the three cars at TMNY, car 3221 is at Seashore.
Thanks. I'll contact you off-line for other questions I have.
For those interested, Dave has just added two of my photos from July to the Boston Mattapan-Ashmont section.
One of the re-bults in Orange & one of the yet to be re-builts making one of the two street crossing on the line. If you look closely you'll see the "T Party" group off to one side.
Enjoy, Mr t__:^)
As a young man going to school at NorthEastern Univ. I rode those Dallas PCC cars often & the line to Arborway a couple of times.
For those that don't know, the problem is that at Heath (where it stops now) the line looses it's private ROW.
The shell of that O/H facility at Arborway was still there along with the 3 PCCs mentioned when the 3/4 Ton Crew did the Boston T Party in July (it's a short walk from the Forest Hills station on the Orange line ... the trolley tracks run from that station down to the yard).
BTW, Thanks for the history lession Gerry.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the great post! This is what Subtalk should be about... May I incorporate this into the Mattapan-Ashmont page?
Thanks,
Dave
You have my permission to do so! Also check out another item I just posted later in the thread.
Alas, people are going to talk about redbirds and R-142s, 63rd St., and the Manhattan Bridge endlessly because those are the things they deal with every day, and are frustrated by. I did enjoy the series of posts about the Fulton Ferry terminal, despite the fact that the personalities began to flare.
Gerry
To Dave, and my other fellow SubTalkers... I agree! And Gerry (in addition to being a good friend a fellow Seashore Instructor) is an incredible source of information on the Boston system -- present and its history. I've learned a lot from him, and hopefully he will continue to add to the vast pool of knowledge here on Subtalk. Thanks Gerry!
Tonight on the 1/9 train, I received a special treat. It went express from 242 Street to 145 street, making only two stops at 225 street and 207 street. it took only about 15 minutes ot go from 242 street to 96 street.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Did it use the middle track on the 3-track portion?
Nah. It just went express on the lcl track, but since it was almost 15 minutes behind schedule, there were no trains in front of it. One thing that was nice was that it didn't slow down every time it came to a stop it was skipping. Usually, the trains I have been on, when re-routed express on the lcl track, slow down before entering the station they are skipping. It was really quick!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I think there is a rule about having to slow down and give a series of short horn blasts when bypassing a station in that manner. I've ridden on southbound D trains which were sent down the local track after merging with the Washington Heights branch, and they would slow down as they approached a local stop, beep-beep-beep-beeping along and picking up speed once in the tunnel again.
I would have loved to have been on that Brighton super express that got up to 54 mph earlier this year.:-)
The rule used to state that you had to sound successive short horn blasts throughout the station being skipped. The new rule is that you are to sound two short blasts entering the station and two short blasts leaving the station(leaving at 15 mph). You can sound some short blasts throughout the station still but it is not required.
10-4. Thanks.
The R142 (BOM) cars have passed the 30 day test. The R142A should be done Monday. By Monday Night car 7211-7220 will go back to E 180 Yard for Modifications and cars 7221-7270 should be coming into Westchester Yard by Monday Afternoon and put in service sometime Monday Night or Tuesday Morning.
This is the way it looks as of now and as alway This Is Subject To Change.
So...the Bombardiers beat the Kawasakis...interesting.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, verr-rrrrry interesting.
Dave,
Thanks for the info...
If this doesn't change, are 7221-7270 going to the 6 line?
Thanks,
Marc
Yes the No.6 will be an all R142A fleet so those cars are coming to the No.6 Line.
but i thought the kawasaki finished first in its 30 day test. i guess this shows that bombardier isn't full of air. its a serious company that has turn for the better. either that or i'm confused and baffled.
Kawaski will finish on Monday. Bombardier is the Winner.
09/29/2000
[Kawaski will finish on Monday. Bombardier is the Winner]
How many of us placed bets on this ?
STAND BACK ! Open up the flood gates. here come the R-142's !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bombardier just might be. After all they do make all types of rolling stock for rail transit around the world. Also I heard the FRA accepted Amtrak's Acela trains and that they are set to enter service on October 29th.
My feeling and "OPINION" is that Bombardier saw that Kawasaki delievered their cars on time, that showed Bombardier being late...Then a while back you had them run a car off the tracks up at the plant which did not make them look good either. Then you had severe problems in beginning of the 30 day test.
My guess is that Bombardier figured that we need to fix our problems fast and get this show on the road. In my opinion, Kawasaki is still a better built car.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
there is a plan afoot by mta east to ship its retired redbird fleet to los angeles to serve as shelter for the people rendered homeless by the unfortunate strike instigated by mta west...
for those interested in the details:
the cars will be moved in sets of 11 across the continent... a ta diesel work engine piloted by our own "engine brake" will provide the motive power... the cross country trip time is estimated to be 4 days each way... with approximately 1000 cars to be transferred in this mannner, engine brake has calculated that he will be able to retire to a villa in france at the end of this assignment...
I'm looking forward to this. "sets of 11" suggests the #7 line. Therefore, I propose an elevated, concrete viaduct part of the way, and steel "L" structure for the rest, starting from Wilshire and Western (Red Line terminal), along Wilshire Blvd. through the heart of Beverly Hills, and ending in Westwood in front of the Armand Hammer museum.
The Redbirds were built to last forever. How fitting it is to find a new home for them in this land of fantasy. I won't sleep tonight, in excited anticipation of these new developments.
I actually heard John Rocker is looking to replace his own personal home trailer with a set of Redbirds with Flushing Line liveries.
LOL!
Larry that was a good one.
As Ed McMahon used to say, "HiYo!"
BMTman
Maybe he can get a Redbird duplex with Brian Peterson, the Rocker-heckling baby killer at Tuesday night's Mets-Braves game, though I think in the scheme of things, it would be a shame to waste a Redbird on Mr. Peterson, except maybe to drop one off the Roosevelt Ave. el onto him.
[Armand Hammer museum.]
Say George, what's in the Armand Hammer Museum? Old boxes of "Arm n' Hammer" baking soda? Or perhaps documents detailing the exciting legacy of baking soda throughout human history? Inquiring minds want to know...;-)
BMTman
Armand Hammer was the CEO of Occidental Petroleum Company until he died some years ago. As chair, he amassed a collection of art, some good, and some less than good, using,(now it gets murky, his money or the company's). The museum was built as an addendum to Occidental's headquarters in Westwood (Los Angeles). After his death, the museum was turned over to UCLA, in part because of the shareholders' complaints. UCLA has done its best; the temporary exhibits are good, but the permanent collection tends to be middling. Wilshire and Westwood is the crossroads of Westwood, a reasonable terminal for a Wilshire rapid transit line, if not Santa Monica.
I have only hinted at the life of Hammer; it is the stuff of LA legend. I won't even mention his friendship with "Old Joe". That is really another story.
Hammer's been dead for nine years, but his name keeps popping up in connection with the current presidental race in relation to which candidate has gotten the biggest benefits from the oil industry, and his Occidental chemical subsidiary was in the news upstate in connection with the Hillary-Lazio election, thanks to the company's little problem at Love Canal 23 years ago.
>>> I won't even mention his friendship with "Old Joe" <<<
George;
You of course mean the late beloved "Uncle Joe" rather than "Old Joe."
Tom
To put this on a traction topic, he's the one for whom the "Little Joe's" were named.
Are you referring to the GE-5 electric locomotives, by any chance? They were known as Little Joes, but that was a reference to Stalin.
So is the thread.
Gotcha.
The Gorton Fisherman & Mrs. Paul have gone to court, seeking an injunction to stop this plan. They claim that by sending the redbirds west, the fishing industry on the east coast will suffer irrepairable harm. Famed NY lawyer, Ron Kubi has gon to court seeking an injunction against the MTA and the fishing industry claiming they are conspiring against the homeless of the left coast.
At the same time, attorney Johnnie Cocheran is representing the fishing industry. He announced that O.J. Simpson will replace the Gorton Fisherman in an upcoming series of commercials. He claims that the sudden backlash has nothing to do with the homeless of LA but is just another example of Mark Fuhrman's lies hurting his client's ability to make an honest living. More to follow.....
This is better stuff than you get from reading the two Time's, Los Angeles and New York. I'm a clueless ell-lay person, though, so please fill me in. Who is Ron Kubi? Liz Smith's line has been busy all evening.
Ron Kuby is a NY attorney of some note. He's the protogee of the now deceased 'civil liberties' attorney William Kuntsler. Mr. Kuby has a decided lean to the left with a strong anti-police, anti-Rudy bias. Personally, - although I find his political views "extreme", I think he's far more intelligent and on the whole, more intelectually balanced than his former mentor (who on his death, had to be screwed into the ground).
That's really rich. Kunstler was a fighter to the end, so to speak. To think that I was a witness to downtown Chicago in 1968, has it really been that long. Am I veering off topic? No, not at all, we need the Redbirds here (plus wood gate cars!).
Not to be outdone, first lady and senatorial hopeful Hilly Clinton has weighed into the frey over sending the redbirds out west. She has proposed sending 24 redbirds back home to Ozark country where they would be piled 6 high creating a high-rise 'trailer-park'. Un-officially called White-Water R-36 Village, all rents collected would go to education or democratic national committee. Al Gore, in an interview in the NY Times stated that this was his idea while Rick Lazio countered by saying the redbirds should be kept in NY state for the poor people in Hornell. He stated that if there are any people who deserve to live in a subway car, it's the hard working people from Hornell. Mr. Lazio also stated that the LA poor should get their own subway cars to live in - or refrigerator boxes from beverly Hills.
I spent the evening scouring Beverly Hills for empty refrigerator boxes; oops, turned up empty. Hillary, by the way, is a certified WASP from Park Ridge, Illinois. Her Arkansas credentials, for whatever they may be worth in New York State, are completely bogus.
Hmmm, my news sources tell me that 73 Redbirds were due to be moved to Dutchess County. They would be pulled on their own trucks to Whaley Lake, where Metro-North would build a private siding. At that siding, the trucks would be removed and the car bodies would be dragged by a Caterpillar tractor to various spots around the lake. The new development would house approximately 50 families and would be called "Camp Redbird". The residences would be called, affectionately, Birdhouses. Unoccupied birdhouses would have front roll signs saying "not in service". Those equipped with working bathrooms would be signed "Flushing". Those equipped with carpeting would be signed "Woodlawn".
(With apologies to the August 2000 NYD ERA Bulletin .... :)
--Mark
09/29/2000
Sounds like a 21st Century answer to Camp Sanita ! Great, I wouldn't mind opening a concession stand selling Rustoleum !
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't forget about Bondo.:-)
Hey, Train Dude? After reading your posting I can no longer determine whether you and heypaul are not the same person...
;-)
LOL!!!!
BMTman
Hey Doug, you do the math:
heypaul + phone booth - glasses - street clothes + blue shorts + red cape + chrome brake handle - phone booth = Train Dude
Nah - you'll just have to ask Lois about that !!!!!!!
No, not phone booth - motorman's cab.:-)
i am not at liberty to disclose who i am about to enter into negotiations with...negotiations will be brokered by the renowned algonquin j. calhoun of early television fame.. i can say it might involve two people here at subtalk adapting the same handle... the major goal of such a consolidation would be to increase the confusion as to the actual content of both party's posts... will it be a fact filled discussion of a topic, or will it be a fantasy filled internal musing of interest to no one?
Will these negotiations take place at the Nicest station in the system, The Grant Avenue station of "A" train fame? Grant Avenue, scenicly nestled between the boroughs of Kings And Queens. Grant Avenue, where its three stair cases majesticly clime skyward in its cathedral like heights! Are these rumors false. Are the media representative being lead down a false garden Path? Please reveiw and reflect upon the comments of posters for "Nicest station"
avid
sorry avid... the location of the talks is a secret to prevent a media circus from arising... a certain central american country was considered, but rejected since it was not served by greyhound...
I suppose that the negotiations will take place at the Knights of the Mystic Sea lodge hall on Lenox Avenue. Transportation will be provided by The FreshAir Cab Company.
more accurately:
the mystic knights of the sea lodge hall
the fresh air taxicab company (incorpulated)
Lightnin' couldn't have said it better hisself...
At least two sets of married pairs ( operational with trolley poles )
& the rest as stationary exhibits etc.. Send the best ones to ...
Peris California THE ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM This largest railway museum in the western united states is hot mostly dry & a GREAT place to have many of them as museum rides & nostalaga etc..
Also send some married pairs to the ILLINOIS museum in the midwest
( the exact name escapes me ) ......
Also are there not other museums that could preserve some of the ""REDBIRDS"" also folks ?? That would be better than polluting the sea & the ocean dont you think subtalkers??
Oh yes at least One operational 10 car train should be PRESERVED for MUSEUM rides !!! How about that ?????
the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM (many shots featuredon my yahoo photos)
>http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications<
& they would be great out there with the los angeles railways museum
collections & the rest could be shipped to other rail museums.
At least one or 2 operational 10-11 car sets could be saved in NYC for "railfan window" museum nostalaga museum rides !!!!!
There is only a small possibility of this....Game 4 of the World Series is on Wednesday, October 25th. If our friends in either the Bronx or Queens were to sweep the series, most likely the ticker-tape parade would fall on Friday, October 27. But it should be over in time to make it to the City Hall Loop at 2:35 PM :) -Nick
If the Mets go all the way, I'd stick around for the parade even though I'm supposed to be heading up to Connecticut that morning for UConn's Homecoming weekend. I missed the 1986 parade by one day, and couldn't get out of school for the 1969 celebration.
There is only a small possibility of this....Game 4 of the World Series is on Wednesday, October 25th. If our friends in either the Bronx or Queens were to sweep the series.
That would be a wonderful birthday present
Here's a question. How many seconds (or minutes) does NYCT put into it's schedules for it's trains? Thanks.
running on...
or
This it the best way I can answer your question. In a Given station the doors should be open Min 10 sec and Max 40 sec pending on the crowd. After 40 Sec time to get on the radio and report heavy Ridership.
The TMNY archive has a chart showing times between stations on the A line circa 1940. How different will it be compared to today?
When a train is held in a station for a connection, is it accounted for in the schedule?
By Rule during rush hour Conductors are not to hold trains for connections unless they get holding lights. Come to 47th/50 Rock and see all the fun gestures the C/O of the F gets for not waiting for the arriving express. Sometimes we are talking 2 seconds between the doors opening on the express and the F leaving.
I was on the 6 today. I asked a Platform Motorman how many R142A's where on the 6. He was unsure, but it was around 4:05 and he said 1 had already passed going uptown. I dunno how many are running, but I know there is more than 1, because as soon as I finished saying that a R142A entered 42nd going uptown on the 6!. I wanted to catch any R142A, but get this. I actually caught the first one that I ever rode with a Familiar face operating the Train. I caught number 7220. I only decided to ride it to 125th. Then I got some shots of the R62A's on the 6, because if I am right they will be taken off the 6 soon. Then to my surprise alot of R33 unrebuilds were running. Great photo ops on the Lex line. Good Variety. I wasn't happy though that the southbound 4 as a R62 only reached 40MPH. I say the Trains got too many Governors. The Redbirds are actually faster than the R62s!!!! Y!
As of now there is only One train 7211-7220. the Train you was on was the 3:58 out of Brooklyn Bridge which should have arrived uptown at Grand Central at 4:10PM. After Monday there will be more then 1 R142A. Also the latest on the R62A story is that they should be going to the No.7 within 2 Years. The Redbirds will leave first.
The only real fast Redbirds are some R36's that are on the No.6 Line which some have not been Modified to go slower. I had 9479 on the Express track and that was a rocket.
09/28/2000
[Also the latest on the R62A story is that they should be going to the No.7 within 2 Years. ]
Pelham Bay Dave,
I posed this question, but failed to receive an answer. When the R-62A's go from the Pelham to the Flushing lines, will they go over as is, or will they be spruced up (new black floors,replace glazing, good cleaning, repaint fiberglass end bonnets)? You know, lessen the blow so the people on the #7 won't feel they are getting worn out hand me downs.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't really have an offical answer on that but I think they may clean then up bit and fix some of the Windows. As far as new black floors they have not really put alot of them in the R62A Pelham cars. There are some cars with diffrent looks like car 1671 I think has a Blue floor and 1696 also has a colored floor last time I seen it.
There are no unrebuilt R-33s, maybe you saw the R-36 mainlines (lights still blink). They have the original builder's plate and everything, but they were still overhauled, just not as much as the others.
What I was saying in my last post, is I say that Subway cars are too slow. Not because of timers and stuff, but I was on the 4, R62 set lead car 1615, all clear signals between 125 and 86 was only 40MPH. i was like c'mon! I have been on E's faster than this! Not to hate on the E, because I live near it. But many TSS's say that the BMT is barely moving Trains, the IND is Its nearly deteriorating, or Idiots near destruction and thet say IRT its a real Train! Nonsense if an E goes 45 and the 4 goes 40! What is this!!!! Even on the Bway line, the 2 can reach 55 going southbound from 96 to chambers. 3 on the same stretch 35. Thats not Whoa!!! Thats not good. Maybe because the R62A's are full of Governors! The 2 Rules!!!!! Also where on Lex can I get good speed on the Siamese Twin express 4-5! Maybe northbound?
What Governors? Dewey? Rockefeller?
Seriously, subway cars don't have governors. As has been mentioned a few times on this Board, the field shunting has been removed from the cars. Others can provide a technical explanation of field shunting, but I can tell you that its removal means a lower top speed and an increase in the amount of time it takes to reach that speed.
David
Or you had a "slowpoke" for a T.O.
There's too many of those going around !
I hate those guys. They go half as fast as they could and you always get them when you are in a hurry (today was an exception though. We hit 73 MPH between Friendship Heights and Bethesda).
Philly Broad Street line.
I was on it a month ago. 62MPH on the express.
if you move away from new york, the other rail systems will really drive you to drink. excessive computer enhanced continuious braking
three speeds slow slower stop! atlanta san francisco la etc.
I never thought I'd say this, but this post makes even less sense then some of Salaam's rantings. 40 is BAD on a downtown express? This when traffic above is running at 12 or less?
-Hank
I was on a southbound 3 train last fall which got up to 47 at 50th St. and kept right on going without slowing down halfway through the station. IIRC, the first car was 1969 - a very good year for Mets fans. Now if I can only spot #1956 next month...
My guess is Chicago. It must be America, it's clearly not New York judging by the subway trains, and it has big buildings.
Or did they just shoot the thing in Toronto and pretend it is New York.
in a move similar to gerald ford's pardon of richard nixon, president bill clinton is considering an executive order pardoning all mta officials who signed off on the r-142a's, in the unlikely event they are ever brought up on charges relative to the acceptance process...
Truth maybe stranger than fiction
That is certainly what I'm afraid of. We need a rule that all NYC transets should be produced in areas dominated by political parties OTHER THAN the only the Governor is in. Either that, or require them to be produced out of state.
You have to present your LIRR ticket stub, or ticket, to a conductor when exiting at Shea Stadium from the LIRR. How come?
Are they concerned that the conductor might not get to everyone while the train is enroute to Shea? Or is there another reason?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey, Kevin, were you at the game last night? Me too! My wife met me at the game last night by taking the LIRR. As the train approached Shea, she was convinced she could have gotten away with not buying a ticket at Penn...until she got off the train. So I have the same question...
(Let's go METS!)
Yeah, they actually managed to clinch the wildcard without Flushing their season completely down the crapper. Amazin'...
I'd like to see the Mets get to the World Series, naturally (along with the Yankees). Maybe the Cardinals or Giants will do us a huge favor and tomahawk the Braves in the first round of the playoffs.
Not a chance. Although I now have to alter my previous postseason precitions, I am now going for St. Louis versus Chicago in the World Series with Chicago winning in 6.
ORIOLES RULE!!!
You're funny! You said that it'll be Chicago over St.Louis but then you put ORIOLES RULE!
If they really ruled, you wouldn't be picking Chi. and St.L. in the WS :)
Besides, being a subtalk fan, you gotta root for a subway series!!
For one night the Orioles did rule, with a 23 run rout of Toronto. They had 20 by the 5th inning. Now they face the woebegone Yankee pitching staff.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Of course, in 1969, the Mets took care of them in five. And the Jets beat the Colts in Super Bowl III. I remember it well.
I was there, too...
In the midst of a negative post, let me turn in a different direction. On an excursion today after meeting with fellow SubTalkers BMTman, and SubBus at the NY Transit Museum (Thanks for the meet), I decided to go on an excursion on the B Line today to check out that mysterious General Order between 62nd St and 9th Avenue. Well let me tell you of my findings. The signal rehab is well underway. A General Order did in fact take out the northbound B local track from 62nd St all the way up to 9th Avenue. As poster Mike and another gentlemen had stated, the B was performing a short reverse move at 62nd St. Lo and behold, it did happen and it was quick. The conductor opened doors upon the T/O dumping his train on the northbound local platform, closed down, and off we went in the southbound direction to switch over into the middle track. We then proceeded up the middle where the Conductor opened his doors again at 62nd St to pickup passengers who were waiting on the southbound platform for the northbound B. We went up towards 9th Av, and I was able to observe some pieces of work equipment up in the yard, plus Revenue Collector 723, which appeared to be coupled to an R-127 work motor. Aside from that, I came across the South Brooklyn Railway Junction.
This would probably be of particular interest to BMTman, the signal work has apparently extended into the SBK Junction, and it's not just signals, but track changes. The lead to the scrap yard has been altered. Track D2 (SBK lead track)has been severed and may as well be out of service. Just before converging on the West End mainline, D1 and D2 met by a pair of signals and derails. Those signals have been removed for reasons unbeknowst to me. I have noticed a small facililty of sorts that has gone up by the junction. Track D2 is essentially a siding which meets up with Track D1 at another location.
The question I have for posters here is what kind of upgrading (if any) are the SBK Tracks scheduled to receive? Is there a new signal in the works for the lead (D1) going into the mainline? Can I also assume that the severing of Track D2 is permanent? Also with regards to the what's left of the old C Tracks going into 9th Av Lower Level, those signals, are getting upgraded, no? I wonder if there are any track changes in the works for 9th Av Complex (Yard, Mainline)?
-Stef
I've never seen anything but diesel work trains on the southern 9th Ave. platform. I'd doubt they'd spend the time to upgrde them down there as well.
The work you describe at the connection with the SBK was done a few years ago. When I worked in Bensonhurst, I watched it's progress as I passed through it every day.
Maybe it's been a long time since I was there, but this work seems relatively recent. I do recall a pair of signals that governed the SBK interlocking which are no longer there. Dougherty's Track Book illustrates the SBK Connection with the Cross Harbor RR and shows the SBK Trackage, with a siding (D2) branching out from D1 near the West End Junction. I guess the siding isn't needed anymore...
-Stef
The work was done in 1998.
Was it that long? Sheesh. I haven't been down that way in a while....
-Stef
I also rode the B train today. I went down on a Q, then got the D to Stillwell. A "B" train pulled in to Stillwell and the route proceeded normal. There seemed to be a new structure being built at the south end of the southbound platform, looked like a new tower or something.
When we got 62nd, the conductor made several announcements about the G.O. After letting passengers off, the B train quickly reversed and went back south, and onto the express track. Then in about 20 seconds we were going northbound on the express stop, stopping again at 62nd.
The speed on the express track wasn't that impressive at all, mainly due to limits, I'm sure those 68's could've gone faster.
After 9av things got interesting, there were several switches and tracks that appeared to go the lower level of 9th (is that used anymore?). Also connections to a railway yard were visble, and lots of track workers. And after a trip through what seemed like a long tunnel, we were out again in the light, then finally curving onto the 4th ave line.
Also when I was on the Q earlier, the speed between 7ave and Prospect Park was pretty impressive, those tunnels are circular, why were they bored instead of cut-and cover.
the lower level of 9th (is that used anymore?).
Nope. Hasn't been used in revenue service since May 11th, 1975 to be precise. You might get an occasional layup or short turn from the 4th Ave subway occurring there, but that's about it.
[Prospect Park] tunnels are circular, why were they bored instead of cut-and cover.
Because they tunnel under Prospect Park and the builders didn't want to disturb it.
--Mark
Question: Today on a RUSH HOUR Queens R train, we stopped at City Hall citing there was a train ahead...I was in the first car, there was NO red signal, nor were there holding lights...instead, the motor-woman exits the car. I got off to move to the second car...do you know where she went, she went into the tower control area and apparently, it looked as if she had to use the bathroom...literally, about 5 mintues later, she comes out with giggles on her face while talking to someone else in the control room and the train finally leaves...after leaving Canal, we switch to the express tracks WITHOUT notice and the conductor apologizes and insists that he was informed by the motorman "just now"...I had to get off at 8th St so is wasn't funny....now, if it was some idiot motor man/woman, I would like to report this...
>>> it looked as if she had to use the bathroom <<<
What's your point here? Do you want the TA to require all T/Os to wear "Depends"?
Tom
WHat do you think a "Motorman's Helper" is for?
What you experienced seems to happen on a somewahat regalar basis. I've been on the uptown N or R heading for the L at 14th.
Either somebody would come out from control or the TO would leave his or her cab for the control door. After the strange procedure we would switch to the B'way express tracks, I got off at 14th so I don't know what happens after then. I'm not a regular rider of the N or R and I have seen this happen maybe 4-5 times out of 10-12 rides.
Allan
Granted when you gotta go, you gotta go, but there must be more to it in this case. Maybe the tower was running a special "Use our john and win an express run up Broadway" promotion.:-)
Wouldn't the conductor ordinarily be informed of an unplanned reroute?
When motorman has a personal emergency
Lets change it a little bit. When C/R has a personal emergency what does he do? There is never a tower in the middle of the platform. Except for City Hall, I think that all towers are at the end of the platform.
Snapple bottle.
avid
between cars....
"Made from the best stuff on earth!!!" (:
Sorry, couldn't resist. The odd thing is, the second I read the topic, I knew EXACTLY what it was about...
You jerk, I was going to say that!
Nah nah!!! :P
I have it on good authority that bus drivers on late shifts use the rear door well. But can't confirm . Any confirmatioms out there?
avid
from the smell of most rear stairways I'd have to agree, Queens Surface seems to have some of the more ripe smelling ones.
Yes, we do.
Once, during a period of localized bad weather (midtown Manhattan was raining, lower Manhattan was not) I was waiting for the M15 at South Ferry. 3 buses pulled up after a while, and the first bus dumped its passengers and drove off. I got on the second bus, whereupon the driver informed us that the first bus was an hour late, our bus was 40 min. late, etc., due to bad weather. Then we passed the first bus, where we met with a supervisor/dispatcher. After we drove off, the driver informed us the other driver was suspended for relieving himself on duty. I thought, that's a little rough, if the bus is running into heavy traffic, what can you do? But I can't believe drivers would actually piss IN the doorwell. OUT the doorwell, maybe, but IN? That leaves way too much evidence.
Watch the fluid intake and stay away from the coffee and cola. I know that sounds tough to do, but it might alleviate having an "emergency".
I saw a gizmo in a catalog called a "Pith Helmet" once....it's a cup in the shape of a pith helmet attached to a hose which is attached to a 24-ounce bottle. I suppose something like this could do in a pinch.
wayne
At least she didn't wait around for another motorwoman to arrive. You know how they like to go in groups. After everything was all said and done the train would have been 2 hours late!
LOL!
BTW, thanks for the useful info on Paulins Kill on the chat last night.
Bob
An old phrase comes to mind: "You should have thought of that before you left!" In this case, the terminal station.
Even if you DO "Think about it before you leave" and take care of it, you sometimes have a genuine en-route emergency. Not everyone has cast-iron plumbing. Believe me, I am going on 50, have been driving a bus for 27 years, and it surely has made the plumbing weaker. (And a bout with cancer two years ago didn't help, either....)
Driving a bus for 27 years! Whoa, now that's some seniority! Do you pick an express bus run? Or do you still toil around on those cruddy local runs?
Where's the Plattsburgh shipments? I haven't seen or heard about any new cars, although Kawasaki's right on the ball with it's fleet. I suspect 7266-7270 should be arriving right about now or will do so shortly, so it's time for the Redbirds to go to mothballs! Unfortunate, but it has to be.
I wonder, but how are the 142A cars getting unloaded at 239th St Yard? By a make shift ramp? The unloading is at night, correct? Can anyone get pics of this who works in the yard?
-Stef
New Yorks new MTA headquarters cost is spiraling out of control.
UP, UP AND AWAY
Peace,
ANDEE
So!! they too are building a THAJ MAJHAL for themselves !!!
( just like los angeles )
Another reason why the 2nd Ave sTubway won't ever be built, i.e. $156 vs. 55 million to renovate the MTA headquarters ... yuck !
Why did the MTA have to pay for the cost to find marble for the floor seperately ? The contractor should have eaten the cost. They did submit a "bid" didn't they ?
Mr t__:^)
I need a little work done on my house, but I'm not doing it. Why? Because we are in a boom, and any contractor I hire, if I can get them to show up at all, will charge a huge amount and do a lousy job.
The government should be doing the same thing. EVERY public project is going way over budget and plagued with shoddy work. Look at that Staten Island stadium, and the school in Sunset Park that requires major work three years after it opened. Contractors are screwing the government to make sure they satisfy their private customers, who have the option of not hiring them when times get tough.
Time to shut the capital program down and save the money for a time when it will buy something.
Our new depot falls into that group (we're still finding things that weren't done or done wrong).
Why don't they just make the LOW BIDDER do what he agreed to, i.e. close most of the loop holes they use to get the bid then nickle & dime the MTA/City to death on until they are happy with the profit.
It's a joke !
Mr t__:^)
(Why don't they just make the LOW BIDDER do what he agreed to, i.e. close most of the loop holes they use to get the bid
then nickle & dime the MTA/City to death on until they are happy with the profit. It's a joke ! )
Because in order to do so the plans and contracts the low bid is based on would have to be so extremely detailed, and have so many contingency clauses allowing for all possible circumstances, that you'd spend more on the plan than on the building. Public purchasing has to be changed somehow. But I'm not sure how.
I agree. Lawyers are expensive. Sometimes it is cheaper just to pay the engineers and contractors to do it again the way you want.
It shouldn't be buying marble flooring, thats for sure. No MTA executive is worth so much for his employment that passengers must face peeling linoleum, roach infested buses and rusting carbodies. Otherwise the fare must go up again, right?
Why didn't they use terazzo(fancy concrete) instead of marble. Terazzo is very durable and attractive.
Sounds like Denver International Airport all over again.
does not look like that to me !!
To speed up the trip in the Bronx, 2 trains should go express from 241 to E180 and 5 trains from 238 should go local to E180 then express to 3 Avenue, as they have been doing, while 2 and 5 trains from Dyre go local from E180 to 3 Avenue.
Will not happen. The middle track is not under signal control between 238 and Gun Hill Rd. so the TA doesn't like to use the middle track unless it's absolutely necessary. And when it is used, it's under an absolute block.
No signals on that track? Why not?
- Lyle Goldman
A while ago there was a thread about the fencing installed between the express and local tracks on the F train viaduct in the vincinity of Smith-9th Street station on the F. The fencing was thought to be installed to reduce the need for flagmen during work.
While passing the are yesterday, I had a thought. During heavy snow, doesn't the TA push the snow from the local tracks onto the express tracks? They can't send it hurdling off the high viaduct to the streets below, and it doesn't fall through like it would on an El.
But now, with the fences there, how can the TA plow the snow onto the express tracks in the event of a blizzard? They'd have to have people on the tracks shovel it over the fences. That takes times.
I realize it has not really snowed in three winters, but our number may be up. Just imagine. Freezing temparatures, deep snow, no natural gas or oil for heat, and no F train.
> . . . it doesn't fall through like it would on an El.
Actually, the F line is an El there!
Not quite. The entire elevated section on the F line from south of Carroll St. to the 4th Av. station is completely enclosed in concrete and no snow/rain nor any objects can fall from the tracks to the street. This stretch of track is the only of it's type in the NYCTA. It's weird though, it is and it isn't an el.
Yeah, zman, but did you know that the concrete is starting to show it's age -- i.e., some of it is cracking -- and beginning to expose the steel underneath?
That will have to be dealt with, but there is still alot of time before it becomes a danger to society (like the Franklin Avenue Shuttle used to be).
BMTman
Let's get back to the original point here. Won't the fences inhibit the TA's ability to clear snow in the event of a major snowstorm, leading to a service disaster? I want a nice long thread as proof so I can say "Gotcha" and "I Told You So" if it happens. (If it doesn't happen, the thread will be forgotten).
It is possible. However considering the past with some of the major blizzards that have hit here in the past few years, if there is a service disruption it won't last long. When the snow blower comes along, the snow actually blows over the sides and onto the street or onto the express track.
What about the Queens Blvd stretch on the Flushing IRT?
Well, it's elevated, so doesn't that make it an el, whatever it's made of?
- Lyle Goldman
(Well, it's elevated, so doesn't that make it an el, whatever it's made of?)
It's called a viaduct. Perhaps the difference is there is space underneath, but the ROW is an impermiable whole.
If there is no space underneath, an elevated RR is called an embankment RR.
68 Street on the 6 line.
Why is the mezzanine there being expanded? I only see notices for asbestos abatement, which would be necessary if anything is going to be ripped up (I wonder why they didn't do it in the 1984 renovation).
OH no ... I picked up my mail this AM and there was Larry Reuter's grinning face looking back at me, and I hadn't had my second cup of coffee yet.
This major article in the trade, Mass Transit, by Jim Duffy starts with: "MTA New York City Transit (notice no authority, in the name) is enjoying an unprecedented renaissance. This year, ridership has surpassed 7 million passangers (how about customers or guests ?) a day on a rejuvenated 6,000-car subway system and 4,400-bus fleet that is fast becoming the cleanest in the world."
There's also a second article: "Double-digit ridership increases on NYCT buses" by the same author ... Sr VP Butch Seay's grinning face is featured in front of #9514.
And a third article: NYCT's 4,400 buses all burning clean fuel within next three years (same author again).
Also a non-NYC article on Hydrogen fuel cell buses.
This is definitely a KEEPER.
I haven't read it yet, so don't ask me a lot of questions ... yet.
Copyright Disclaimer: I lifted less then 400 words & identified the publication & author.
Mr t__:^)
Is there an associated web site for this publication or a way for us not in the industry to subscribe?
--Mark
It's http://www.masstransitmag.com
David
I have been always wondering. What happens to the Motorman is something goes wrong with his Train? Like say the E right, something happens to its Doors at Sutphin Boulevard. Its Guard light stays on and doors are closed. Say that he/she Calls RTO and they say pull it in to the Yard. So he dumps his Passengers and takes the Train to Jamaica. What does he/she do now to get back on schedule? what do they do now?
>>> What happens to the Motorman is something goes wrong with his Train? <<<
I don't know about New York, but in Tokyo the T/O is expected to commit suicide with a ceremonial sharpened brake handle. :-)
Tom
In most cases, after laying the train up in the yard, the crew would deadhead back to the terminal(go back without a train) specified by the Yard Dispatcher. In the case of the E line, that would be Jamaica Center.
Would they have to wait for another train leaving the yard that's going their way, or would they have to walk to the nearest station?
They simply walk to the nearest station. Rarely is another train heading their way but if it's available, they hop on it right away to save the walk.
When I got to the northbound platform at the Roosevelt Avenue station today, there was no local train for 10 minutes, there was a G train that was on the express track, and an F train that almost went local?
Almost went local?
Last fall at 14th St., I saw a southbound 1 train on the express track and a southbound 3 on the local track at the same time. I just shrugged and thought, ooooo-kay.
That happens a lot! It happened on July 4th, and I can recall 6 time since then that I have seen that. I also was twice on a 3 rerouted via South Ferry (where it went back North). When that happens, what happens to the conductor's position? He won't ever line up with a board again! (if cars are unlinked he could move to another cab, linked he would have to be buzzed every stop because the other cabs are useless).
I took the F from 179st this morning around 9am and we crawled from 71st/Continental through the Queens Blvd express. It didn't clear up until 53rd street/Lex.
That was the slowest ride I ever had on there, and that G local train I saw going in service at 71st zoomed by us at 63rd.
I've had that experience a couple times when I get the 'F' right after 9am at Continental. So I get there at 8:55 and it's fine.
When I was in New York City 2 weeks ago, I took the F train to Smith-
9th St. to take pictures from both the platform and street level. On
the platform, I felt pretty safe, since there were a couple of TA
police officers standing on the platform. Once I went down to the
street, it was sort of a different story. It was mid afternoon, just
when schools were letting out, and there were a lot of rowdy kids
getting off at Smith-9th St. I went into the deli next to the station
entrance and bought a soda, and I was tempted to ask the guy behind
the counter if it would be safe for me to take pictures in that area,
but since there were other people in the store, I didn't bother. For
some reason, I felt a little leery about pulling out my camera, so I
just went back into the station, and headed back to Manhattan. I
wanted to get some pictures of the underside of the Smith-9th St.
viaduct, since I'm into photographing El structures. Is the
neighborhood around Smith-9th St. Station considered dangerous? If I
was to take pictures around the viaduct, would I be risking getting
mugged, held up, or at least harassed? If I was to go back to Smith-
9th St. the next time I go to New York City for a second attempt at
getting pictures, is there a "best" time to go, when I would least
likely have any problems??? Any help and suggestions would be greatly
appreciated.
SubwayRider (Timothy)
Smith-9th's immediate area is a big rough around the edges but not actually dangerous. If you head more or less southwest from the station, toward the center of the Red Hook neighborhood, then yes things might get a bit dicey, but right around the station's okay.
Subway stations (and trains) do get a bit rowdy when high schools let out. It looks like you saw that yourself. While in most cases these boisterous youths don't actually present a danger to other people, you might want to time your visits accordingly.
We have an Shop at 12th Street and Pathmark Shopping Center (below 2nd Ave). I walk from Smith & 9th over the Drawbridge to it all the time. While it is a rough looking neighborhood I've felt okay.
There is a lot (old U.S. Post Office Garage) that was supposed to be turned into a Multiplex/Shopping area but they found damage to the underground storage tanks and (get this) coal bunkers so the builder pulled out. That would have brought back the neighborhood.
The specific answer to your question is that Smith/9th is not in a neighborhood. It sits over the Gowanus Canal, which is surrounded by a deteriorated industrial area. But it is the closest station to Red Hook, which is a neighborhood comprised almost entirely of low income public housing. Parts of Red Hook outside the projects could become middle income in the future. There are many redevelopment plans afoot for Red Hook and the Gowanus area, but how many decades til fruition it's hard to say.
[There are many redevelopment plans afoot for Red Hook and the Gowanus area, but how many decades til fruition it's hard to say.]
Yes, and one of the MAJOR things planned for the future of that area is the proposed Gowanus Highway Tunnel or complete rebuilding of the Gowanus Expressway. The tunnel idea has floated around for nearly two decades, but still nothing concrete has come out of the proposals.
Larry, would you happen to know any details in this area?
BMTman
"The tunnel idea has floated around for nearly two decades, but still
nothing concrete has come out"
Ah... well there are a couple of problems here. Tunnels are not supposed to float around, they are supposed to be burried in the rock UNDER the river bottom.
And of course nothing concrete can come out, that is why they use concrete overshoes, so that you won't float around.
Elias
they are supposed to be burried in the rock UNDER the river bottom.
This would be underground, not underwater.
Ya got me there.
Even though I wasn't being funny (for a change).
BMTman
still nothing concrete has come out of the proposals.
But you oughtta see what comes down from the highway .....
--Mark
(Larry, would you happen to know any details in this area?)
The idea is to spend $10 billion to raise the property values of a few, well organized yuppies who bought houses in the vicinity of the highway. No one wants to pay for this, but they have mobilized enough support from Brooklyn's elected officials (the same ones who have managed to avoid lousy schools and the Manhattan Bridge for 20 years) to prevent the repair of the Gowanus as is from happening. So, nothing happens.
So, nothing happens.
Well at least until it collapses, then we spent 20 years debating what to do, sound familiar? How about "GownausWay"?
I got off at Smith-9th once in 1987, to pick up a camera bag at the 47th St. Camera Shop warehouse. It was a short walk up Smith St., parallel to the elevated structure, and I didn't feel threatened.
That's what seems to strange. Smith and 9th Street is only one stop past Carroll Street on the F and G trains. The area around Carroll still seems like a pretty nice place. There is Carroll Gardens and a number of nice restaurants that I have eaten in. The neighborhood used to be Italian and it might be more mixed now. It is hard to believe that only four or five longs blocks away things could change so rapidly---if what I've been reading is right.
That's what seems to strange. Smith and 9th Street is only one stop past Carroll Street on the F and G trains. The area around Carroll still seems like a pretty nice place. There is Carroll Gardens and a number of nice restaurants that I have eaten in. The neighborhood used to be Italian and it might be more mixed now. It is hard to believe that only four or five longs blocks away things could change so rapidly---if what I've been reading is right.
Carroll Gardens remains a desirable neighborhood. It's been getting some of the spill-over from increasingly unaffordable Park Slope, not that it's any bargain itself. Most of the houses in the 'hood display a strong pride of ownership.
As far as Smith-9th is concerned, as noted elsewhere in the thread it's a mainly commercial area and is not what one would consider dangerous. Red Hook, to be sure, is pretty skanky, but that's mainly because of all the housing projects located there. Carroll Gardens is a safe distance away.
The neighborhood changes drastically because the Gowanus Expressway literally cut the neighborhood in half. East of the highway is the residential sections of Red Hook & Carroll Gardens (with Park Slope further East), while West of the Elevated roadway is the more depressing and delapidated industrial section that is more associated with "classic" Red Hook.
BMTman
Several years ago while riding the J line I spotted a fascinating old movie theatre in a state of ruin. I could tell that the immediate area looked less than upscale, so I decided to go back very early on a Sunday morning to photograph the theatre from the street. No problem. I figured that even muggers had to sleep sometime.
There's usually a police car parked by the theatre.
09/29/2000
George,
Could this theatre be the RKO Bushwick ?
Check out the July 1998 NYC Subway Calendar when this theatre and the surrounding neighborhood was in it's heyday. That's of course if this is the same theatre your talking about.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. Your calendar shot certainly depicts a better time for the theater and neighborhood. Incidentally, the theater is also featured in the book "American Ruins" by Camilo Jose Vergara, Monacelli Press, 1999, pages 104 and 105, an excellent pictorial document on urban decay. I quote: "The theater...was a major stop on the vaudeville circuit, hosting Ethel Barrymore, and other headliners like Mae West, Eddie Cantor, and Jack Benny."
If you want to shoot pics there without school kids, go on a Saturday or Sunday around 12 or 1 pm. Nobody will bother you. Just make sure that you are out of there before dark.
If you go over to the Carroll St station, the area is nice. There are lots of brownstones in the vicinity.
Had the opportunity to hang out at the New Hyde Park station yesterday afternoon between roughly 5:20 and 6:00. It has to be the greatest place in the world to be if you like to see crossing gates continuously going up and down and frustrated motorists trying to get across.
I lost count of just how many trains went by eastbound, but after the 5:32(?) made its station stop, at least four trains- two M-1 and two DD- crawled closely after it at no better than 40MPH- that's how tight the schedule is. A westbound M-1 FLEW through- must've come from Huntington or Ronkonkoma- at at least 60- enough to set off car alarms.
There are still a great many people who think absolutely nothing of detraining and walking right around the lowered gates across the tracks- and in front of the train they just got off- at the NHP Road crossing. The T/O got fed up with waiting for the crowd to disperse so he could proceed and blew his horn in their ear. Several of the jaywalkers cursed and proferred obscene gestures.
Three eastbound double deckers went by- one with three cars (probably Oyster Bay), one with four (I'm guessing Patchogue, Speonk or Montauk) and one with EIGHT! Probably destined for Port Jeff. By checking a Port Jefferson branch timetable, you can somewhat tell where the trains bypassing NHP are heading to. If it comes out of Hunters Point and goes no further than Mineola, it's probably Oyster Bay, or maybe Montauk branch. If it goes to Port Jeff, it's obvious. If it originates at Penn or Brooklyn and goes no further than Hicksville, it's Ronkonkoma. Things were so busy, there was no time to check.
I always like to watch outbound PM rush hours trains discharge at home stations to see how busy they are. Not many people got off at New Hyde Park; twenty minutes earlier I was at Nassau Boulevard, and there was a HUGE discharge. Of course, some of those people might have been headed for Adelphi. The biggest fallout I ever saw was at Merrick at about 6:00; it took a good five minutes for the stairs to unclog and another ten for the parking lot. Bayside, Great Neck, Mineola, Syosset, Bethpage, Rockville Centre and Massapequa also take a long time to clear out after a train stops.
Few things are scarier than standing on the narrow NHP platforms while an M-1 flies through at full speed.
There are still a great many people who think absolutely nothing of detraining and walking right around the lowered gates across the tracks- and in front of the train they just got off- at the NHP Road crossing. The T/O got fed up with waiting for the crowd to disperse so he could proceed and blew his horn in their ear. Several of the jaywalkers cursed and proferred obscene gestures.
We've all heard about that amateur video which shows a woman walking around the front of a METRA train, and right into the path of another one. It would be helpful if continuous loops of the video could be shown on big monitors at the station. But then again, it probably wouldn't matter - things like that only happen to the other guy (or girl), right?
What is a crossing gate and how does it operate?
They're the gates that lower over the railway at most busy railroad crossings, passenger or frieght. You have the white sign that says, "railroad crossing," (it is shaped like an x), then the two flashing red lights. The crossing gate is a the red and white striped arm that comes down and blocks cars on the road.
Few things are scarier than standing on the narrow NHP platforms while an M-1 flies through at full speed.
Here's one... standing on the platform of the southbound track at Mansfield, MA, where it is only 1-1/2 feet wide, when an ACELA Regional goes by at 110 mph. Coming soon, ACELA express at 150 mph?
Makes me wonder whether the passengers at Kingston RI still walk across the NB tracks to get to the station from SB trains.
"Here's one... standing on the platform of the southbound track at Mansfield, MA, where it is only 1-1/2 feet wide, when an
ACELA Regional goes by at 110 mph. Coming soon, ACELA express at 150 mph?"
Princeton Junction is another. They actually went so far as to put signs up on the platform which light up when an express train is approaching on the local track.
On the NE corridor there are spots that allow people to cross the tracks and on most of the ROW, there is no fencing around the tracks. Now imagine crossing the tracks with a Metroliner or Acela flying at 120-150 MPH.
(Rail)Roadkill!
My guess is that the brakes on Acela are going to get put on after a few of these happen. IMHO, it's downright stupid, borderline insane, to have ANY train going 80+ along a track that has platforms, especially low level ones.
But then, Amtrak sees nothing wrong, and they've always been right about their HSR planning....
Why don't all trains have bells? NJT uses them in tunnels and at crossings, as well as stations (used at high-platform when stopping, lo-platform wether they'll stop or not). If you hear the bell, you know a train is coming even if you don't see it.
I was surprised the C-3s didn't have a bell. At least the D*30ACs have them (like you can't already hear them coming!). I can't understand why MNRR doesn't use them.
It is better to walk in front of the train than behind. A person can come out from behind a train and get hit by an oncoming train, because he cannot see it.
LIRR does two way traffic on both tracks.
Expect a train on any track at any time and in any direction.
In Merrick, before the line was elevated, they used to kill off about one person a month at the grade crossings, many as you say ducking behind the train they just left while the other trains sails through at 70.
Back in the late 70s or early 80s a van load of kids tried to pass the gate at Mineola, it was night time, and they expected that the train would stop in the station before it made the crossing. Oops.
The circuit for the gates must be long enough to protect through trains at 70 mph, and that will leave you sitting when one makes the station stop just west of the crossing.
Elias
Sorry, Elias, but what you've said is not entirely accurate. In March 1982 nine teenagers were killed when their van was hit by an LIRR train at Herricks Road on the Mineola-Garden City Park border.
Yes, it WAS the middle of the night, but that particular crossing (which was replaced by a trestle over Herricks Road some 16 years later) is located midway BETWEEN the Merillon Avenue and Mineola stations, which are a little more than a mile apart. Electric trains stopping at both stations move at about 40. The train in question was a Port Jeff diesel running express from Jamaica to Hicksville. Expresses in that area are known to approach 70.
The driver, who was from the area, thought he could beat the train across the tracks by driving around the lowered gates. We know the rest. Even a train slowing to stop can kill a pedestrian; such a thing happened at Bethpage last year. THIS train was at full speed, which may have contributed to the high death toll. The autopsy revealed the driver had been legally drunk.
In a tremendous misrepresentation, the 1983 World Almanac listed this under disasters with a blurb that nine children were killed when their SCHOOL BUS was struck by a train. This makes it sound like the big, bad LIRR deliberately mowed down some innocent young scholars rather than a bunch of joyriding teenagers bar-hopping in the middle of the night with a drunken daredevil at the wheel.
Howard, if I remember correctly, there were actually 10 people in the van. One teenaged female sitting in the back of the van actually survived!!
By the way, I think Mineola is a great place to watch trains, probably even better than New Hyde Park. I made a video of my 4 year old son (then 3) at Mineola last year standing by the Main Street crossing by Nassau Tower where the OB Line starts to branch off. The video is about an hour with a great mix of old diesels, new tri-level diesels, and M1-3's. It was during the PM rush. I froze some shots of the video and put it on a web site. (my wife's in a couple of the pics too) Click here to see 'em.
Howard, if I remember correctly, there were actually 10 people in the van. One teenaged female sitting in the back of the van actually survived!!
Wasn't one of the dead teens the son or daughter of a big cheese at the LIRR?
Actually, I think one of the victims was the child of some NY State assemblyman, and that's why the bridge got put in there before any others.....
I stood at NHP not to long ago around the PM rush, and what a rush when the trains flew by. When I'm waiting for the bus, it's a good place to wait and watch the trains go by (Xfer from N24 to N25).
I notice that the sand boxes on elevated stations take a beating. There is always a trace of depleated fluid running out of them accompanied with the smell on amonia.
avid
Been tossing this around, and I know with the lack of Sunlight it might not be do-able but how about a Field Trip to the SIR.
5:00pm Boat, 5:30 express, get off at Eltingville to see the WEP Plaque and get a quick bite (bagel joint, pizzia or Burger King). Then off to Tottenville, return might stop at Dongan Hills but by that time it is dark. A lot more stations worth visiting, maybe next summer. Explore St. George terminal (see the wye)waiting for the boat back.
Talk is 10/19 or there abouts, I won't be able to make any more plans until after the 9th. I'm off to Las Vegas to check out the monorails for rail fan windows>G<.
What da ya think?
Well, SIR is a system I've never really been on.
Is it very interesting?
:)Andrew
SIR South Beach ROW walk?
We could see the construction taking over.
Abandoned lines seem to make a good trip.
Mark W. did the North Shore last time.
SIR South Beach ROW walk?
We could see the construction taking over.
Abandoned lines seem to make a good trip.
Mark W. did the North Shore last time.
I've explored some of it, and at this point there's so much construction on the ROW that it's stretching definitions to say that there even is an ROW any more.
the proposed tour would be the current line.
You get to ride some of the OTHER R-44s, two ferry rides are included, one in daylight, one at night & get to hang with some SubTalk friends. It's just for fun, but we will stop at a couple of spots for technical stuff ... an Indian Summer Field Trip in the country, what else could you ask for ?
Also Lou is going to come up with a place for those that can't get there early so you can catch up & ride back with us.
Mr t__:^)
The 12th annual Delaware Transportation Festival will be held this Saturday (Sept 30) at Wilmington station (Amtrak, SEPTA) from 11 to 5. I haven’t visited this one yet, but I hear Amtrak has equipment on display in the station. Can any of out Amtrak experts comment? Chaohwa?
DART link.
PIMS is working, they are now calling us customers (as in "Customers are reminded..."), and we hit 73 MPH between Friendship Heights and Bethesda this morning although that T/O wasn't following procedures (reading the sports section while driving and not doing announcements the right way).
Thought the top speed systemwide was now 59 mph?
Most t/o's that I've seen read the newspaper. If the computer's doing the work, it must be a boring-as-hell job.
But it wasn't. We were in manual.
Was that a Rohr or a Breda?
wayne
All cars are in manual mode.
Chaohwa
Breda 402X.
While operating an OPTO 'G' train, I once did the "jumble". Of course I did it when people weren't looking.
Well, that's sure reassuring! I'll think of that tomorrow morning on the train! Good to know you people up front are so professional about this! ;)
Chris
could somebody tell me all the readings on all subway cars roll sign including the lines?
The first 20 R-142 pilot cars had to undergo a 30 day test period. My question is does the rest of the order as they come in have to undergo the same 30 day test?
no that won't happen. the cars run fine. besides if that were to happen, train service will get screwed up. also if Bombardier gets a 30 day test on every train, then Kawasaki will get it too because, one train making not giving so many problems doesn't mean the rest of them won't and one train making so many hiccups deosn't mean that the rest of them will.
Is the R-142 car still running on the #2 line, and is the old R-142 schedule still valid? I tried to catch it Brooklyn-bound last week (Thursday) at 34th Street/Penn Station at about 5:45 P.M., but I didn't see it. I waited until 6:10, then I got on a redbird.
- Lyle Goldman
Well, Is the R-142 car still running on the #2 line, and is the old R-142 schedule still valid?
- Lyle Goldman
Nope ... once the first trainsets complete revenue testing, all the other trainsets are "accepted" for delivery. There might be a short period of breaking them in before they go into revenue service but there's no 30 day test for the additional units. Otherwise it would take forever to get new rolling stock onto service.
I don't work for Transit so my statements could be wrong.
--Mark
I'm sure Train Dude or Pelham Bay Dave will chime in on this, but I think that there will be some sort of "warranty period" until the new cars achieve a MDBF of a certain benchmark which I do not know and I think they'll chime in on that one also!
Once again I must ask: How does a pregnant woman decide exactly who "owes" her a seat?
It happened to me once again, this time on a southbound F at Continental. A woman who was quite pregnant entered the train, bypassed everybody sitting near the doors, bolted directly toward me (in one of the transverse seats between pairs of doors), and demanded my seat. Again, to avoid appearing insensitive, I gave up my seat.
However, I must still wonder: What special methodology did she use to select me as the one who owed her a seat?
Was it an aisle seat? Maybe she was more comfortable in an asile seat since there is more room. Was there other transversal seats that were empty. If I was in your position, even if she was not pregnet, I would give up the seat just to stay out of an argument.
Some people think that because they have a condition physical or otherwise, they deserve special treatment.
During the morning rush hour I often see a woman get on the downtown No. 1 at 86th St. who is severely crippled. She's accompanied by a man, but she had a hard time moving. Of course people always jump up and offer her a set - I have too - but she always refuses, I think because it's too much trouble for her to get down and up, and anyway she changes to the express at 72nd St. All she really wants is a good hold on a pole and room to get on and off. Anyhow, a while back she got on and stood right in front of me (I was in a seat right next to the door), and I asked myself, should I offer her the seat? I knew she would refuse, and I didn't feel I had to prove a point (I've offered her a seat in the past), so I stayed in my seat, but so did everyone else (do they all know she never wants a seat?). At 79th St. a young woman standing next to the crippled woman said to me, in a nice voice, "I think you should offer this woman your seat." That's when I had to prove my bona fides, I guess, and I explained the whole story to the young woman, but then I also said to the man accompanying the crippled woman, "You're getting off at 72nd St., aren't you?" He said, "Yes, yes, thank you!" Was this all too much drama? What would you have done?
This reminds me of an incident which happened to me. Some time ago, I was on my daily commute in the morning using the Astoria Line. An ancient gentleman boarded the train. He looked old, cold, and barely able to walk, but otherwise like any other octagenarian you might see on any given day. In other words, he did not look like a vagrant or anything. Because I try to lend a hand whenever is practical and possible, I decided to offer the man my seat. I stood up, tapped him on the shoulder...but before I could get a word out, the man bellowed forth with an angry, barely coherent, obscenity-laced tirade, which I'll abridge here into basically "Leave me alone." As I sat back down, a bit stunned, I looked at my neighbors on the car and shrugged, so much for that idea. The person next to me said, "Well, that's New York for ya."
I always think of this whenever an attempt at altruism, however mild, blows up in my face. Enough experiences like that for anybody, and selfless acts will soon stop. Quite unfortunately, I'm now always wary of the demented-old-man factor whenever I get the urge to aid a senior citizen, or others in need.
Furthermore, as I walk along the street, I'm continually amazed at how many homeless people who want your help try to get it by insulting you. These people are so obviously menatlly ill. They need more than houses, they need help, seriously.
"Furthermore, as I walk along the street, I'm continually amazed at how many homeless people who want your help try to get it by insulting you. These people are so obviously menatlly ill.
They need more than houses, they need help, seriously."
About a month ago while I was taking pictures of streetcars, some homeless person wanted a handout from me and started with the insults and finished by threatening to throw me in front of a very nonexistant truck. I ignored that person the whole time, right from the very beginning, and left as soon as I'd taken the picture I wanted to get.
speaking of giving up a seat in crowded rush hour, a handicapped wheel chair person wants to get into the handicapped priority seating area. most likely my prediction is that a person will not give up their seat , which makes handicapped seating on the train seem impraticle. also it seems that the passengers don't know that priority seating is made for one person if not handicapped. it happened to me on the R-142 riding up town when a man decided to sit next to me in the handicapped sec. of the train where i was sitting with his ass half off the chair. i was about to tell him that it was made for the capacity of one, but didn't want to seem selfish. passengers accross from me did the same thing. (when will they know?)
I haven't been on an R-142 yet, so without seeing it, I would've guessed it was made for two people also. I don't think any other train in service has priority seating (benches)for one person.
Well, one of you are fat.
Those seats are for two people.
> Well, one of you are fat.
You mean, one of you is fat.
Thank you
speaking of giving up a seat in crowded rush hour, a handicapped wheel chair person wants to get into the handicapped priority seating area. most likely my prediction is that a person will not give up their seat , which makes handicapped seating on the train seem impraticle. also it seems that the passengers don't know that priority seating is made for one person if not handicapped. it happened to me on the R-142 riding up town when a man decided to sit next to me in the handicapped sec. of the train where i was sitting with his ass half off the chair. i was about to tell him that it was made for the capacity of one, but didn't want to seem selfish. passengers accross from me did the same thing. (when will they know?)
terrence
Demanded your seat? Call me insensitive(or worse) but I would have told her that if she wants my seat, then she can get it when I get off the train. I'm not going to take any DEMANDS from a stranger. What nerve! I would GIVE her my seat, but if you DEMAND anything from me, you can't get s*it.
lol true true!
Right on!
That's exactly my attitude. The only problem is I don't have the balls to enforce it.
Well I do. Up until last year I only used the bus occasionally as I was in high school and taking the school bus. Upon first beginning riding the bus I always made it a point to give up my seat for women. It was cool until one day on the 214 route when I was really tired I sat down. If anyone is familiar with the Gillig Phantom's interior layout I was in the first row of front-facing seats directly behind the wheelchair area. Well a woman, probably in her mid 30s, who seemed relatively physically fit and capable of standing began demanding the seat and irately dissing on me. I had never seen her before. Other people on that bus knew that I was prone to giving my seat up - I am 6'8" and when standing I must pop the safety vent up to give myself enough headroom so that I will not duck, but I said "sure" and stood up. I have ever since then sat in the back area of the bus - no one ever asks for a seat ther because most standees are towards the front, and I can sit it peace. BTW I will still usually offer a seat if it is on a long express run (some buses in the Seattle-Tacoma area run for an 45 minutes without stopping), byut for the most part I am like "forget about it"
One time i was riding on a Max light rail train which was pretty full,when an old woman came in the car,she had a cain and was limping badly,i asked her would she like to sit down she said yes thank you when i got up to give her the seat a young girl slipped right into the seat, i said hey i meant this seat for that woman she said let the bitch stand.........the response was pretty nasty,but when the girl had to get off the car enough people blocked her from getting off for a couple of stops,someone said let the *******bitch walk.....we all laughed...she was mad and cursing as she was on the platform and we pulled away,the old woman had her seat afterall.
The fact that the people blocked her and gave her a tit for tat is a testament to the good-naturedness of Portland people and the reason it has always been my dream to live there. Yes, when you are standing on the split platforms on the new "Barbur Blvd light rail" or something in 2020, you'll know that I was the one who told them to ditch the Center Island....... How long ago was the last time you visited Portland?
Abe
I live here......i told a radio talk show host Jim Bickel in 1973 that the( then proposed ) light rail would be a success as he Bickel was one of the nay sayers saying that it would fail......
Wow check it! And that was 13 years before opening. Damn dude portland is like my favorite city - as a current resident of SOuth Hill, Washington I often catch the Talgo at the Tacoma Amtrak station and hop down there. My cousins live in the Cedar Mill area (Beaverton) and I have a friend who runs a max website, Chris (maxlightrail.com) who lives in the apartments by Union Station. Where R U ?
I live in S.E. of portland half way to Oregon City,i used to ride Max to Portland when i had to pay for parking,i took 205 to Gateway Max station which has free park and ride and rode to work, now i have free parking so i drive to work but still ride Max when ever i want to see a hockey game or whatever,as downtown parking is a real pain,the fairless square is a nice feature of Portlands Max line. I used to live on Long Island and took the L.I.R.R. to work and being from the big apple knew that Portland would someday need a rail system so i just told Bickel what i knew and that it would work and i was right....
Hey, can you answer a Portland question. Is that VC tower still at Union Station? It was closed around 1996 and I have some interrior photos and most of the model board is covered w/ black tape (indicating tracks out of service) so I can see why. Also how many tracks does Portland Union have. It has 4 in my pics but, the increased service might have meant some new trackwork. BTW I live right accross the river from Portland, Portland Connecticut that is. Home of Brownstone.
The tower is now showing the sign " go by train " and is lit up at night on all four sides,still four tracks but the yard tracks have been removed as new housing is being built there.
That brings back a couple of memories...
1. About 10 years ago: While standing on a southbound #1 train, one of my fellow passengers seemed to be in great pain from her prosthetic leg. (Yes, it really was prosthetic - she was wearing shorts.) As soon as a nearby seat became vacant, I tossed my backpack onto it in order to "save" it for her.
2. Once, while riding a southbound M4 bus, I noticed several people boarding through the rear door - at 79th Street, wearing fur coats! One, a woman in her 70's, demanded my seat. That time, I refused, and instead gave it to another woman in her 60's. The first woman complained (loudly, of course) that she was older and thus more deserving of the seat than the second. I replied (loudly, of course) that she had not paid her fare, and thus did not deserve to sit at all.
If that was me, then I would tell her to sit on my lap.
She has no right to make you get up. She is entitled to ask to sit in the designated seats and no where else.
>>> What special methodology did she use to select me as the one who owed her a seat? <<<
She looked around for the kindest most sensitive handsome looking man in the car who would appreciate her difficulty and act as a gentleman should, ... or she looked for a WUSS who could be bullied. :-)
Tom
Probably just early practice for
someday having a toddler who will
be gluing his or her face to those
very windows during their
railfan-in-training stage.
Assuming there ARE any railfan windows left in a few years. The Redbirds' days are numbered, and I give the R-32s through 42s no more than fifteen years.
ummmmm.. you do know I was referring to the
side windows, right.. please say you knew.
Sometimes, this works in reverse. On the Tokyo subway system, it is common practice to give up seats for elderly, handicapped or pregnant passengers. In fact, there are specially designated seats for this purpose near the end of the cars on all subway and commuter trains. Once, on a particularly crowded subway train, I offered to give up my seat to a young (mid twenties) pregnant woman. At first (for about three stops) she refused to sit down, and no one else sat down either (not likely to happen in New York!). Finally, to end the embarassing impasse I said "O-kake kudasai", which means "Please sit down" very politely in Japanese. Finally, the young woman sat down and said "Doumo arigatou gozaimashita", "thank you very much". My Japanese friends tell me that there may have been several issues going on here, one of which could have been the subtle and unconcious fear and prejudice against foreigners, that was only overcome when I spoke appropriate Japanese to her. Or, maybe she just didn't want to sit down! Certainly, she never would have demanded to have anyone give up their seat for her! Anyway, I thought you might find this "reverse situation" interesting.
Good man, Frank
Hey, D-Train! Welcome back!!
So, when did you get a new hard drive???
BMTman
Welcome back D-Train! Haven't heard from you for a while. How's that collection of model subway cars doing? I haven't touched the stuff for a while now, although I did finish my R-26's and R-29's (IR kits) including fixing the underbody detail and casting new (correct) end doors. I also made the correct decals for the NYCTA heralds on the -29's. If I ever get the time, I'll post a "how-to" article on Villani's site.
Regards!
Frank
Good man, Frank
Hey, D-Train! Welcome back!!
So, when did you get a new hard drive???
BMTman
Welcome back D-Train! Haven't heard from you for a while. How's that collection of model subway cars doing? I haven't touched the stuff for a while now, although I did finish my R-26's and R-29's (IR kits) including fixing the underbody detail and casting new (correct) end doors. I also made the correct decals for the NYCTA heralds on the -29's. If I ever get the time, I'll post a "how-to" article on Villani's site.
Regards!
Frank
As a Transit employee we are **required** by the rules (10C) to stand when there are standees in a subway car.(Of course, if there are seats for the standees then we can sit.[Let's say therwe are 4 people in the car plus myself and one customer is standing- we can sit since the standee could have a seat.])
Yes- I have seen employees sitting when others are standing but I obey that rule. I have been offered a seat by some gentlement and decline because of the rule.
What gets me is all the small kids sitting when senior citizens are standing. As a child, I was taught to give up the seat to older people.
Although I'm not an NYCT employee, I generally follow the NYCT employee rule myself. As a (I like to think) young guy with an office job, I sit all day. As I look around most trains, I tend to think that most of the people could use a seat a lot more than I can.
It does burn me inside to see someone struggling to stand or hang on while some obviously able-bodied souls sit.
CG
My favorite variation on this -- on my bus ride home, I usually get a seat. One day a woman gets on the bus, USING HER TA PASS, and demands my seat, since I was in uniform. I got up and gave the seat to someone else who was standing, pointing out that if I couldn't sit, neither could she.
AT least you obeyed the rules! If she was a beakie you obeyed by standing!If she was not a beakie maybe a beakie was on board and she'll get a surprise later
Sometimes it's a damned if you, damned if you don't situation. If you offer your seat to a woman, you're a male chauvinist pig. If you don't, you're a pig, period.
There used to be a female being- to call her a woman or a human would be unnecessary flattery- who was a regular on my morning '7'. She would start complaining loudly that men were sitting- even if there WERE seats available. One guy unable to hold his tongue pointed out that there were plenty of empty seats. She responded that all men should stand and save all the seats for the women. Several women chimed in in agreement.
I get off for work at a point in the line where the train is often very crowded. If I rise from my seat in preparation for getting off, some woman will frequently bark, "Well, it's about TIME you gave me your seat!" I USED to respond calmly, "I'm not giving you my seat; I have to get off here.", but that turns the car into a male-bashing fest rivalled only by those on Oprah.
If I'm ever challenged by a woman in this way, I 'defend' myself by asserting that I would be betraying the equal rights movement by giving her my seat.
Funniest, but most dangerous exchange I ever heard on the subject:
SHE (to sitting male passenger): "What's the matter with you? Can't you see I'm pregnant?"
HE: "Well, don't yell at ME; yell at the guy who did it- if you can remember his name."
This was met with widespread gasping and a few nervous snickers. Mine was the next stop so I don't know how it continued, but there was nothing in the news that night.
This subject comes up at work now and then. After hearing a half-an-hour of the women bashing the men (punctuated by many shouts of "You go, girl!"), I ask why some women insist on putting their packages on the seat next to them, and refusing to move them, on a train packed with standees. I'm invariably shouted down.
Speaking of which I had a C/O once on the D who on the PA when we were slowly crawling over the Manhattan Bridge go into a whole lecture about giving up your seat to any lady. I mean this guy went on and on the whole span, tried to make an attempt at humor but it was poor at best.
Kinda like the pilot of an airplane giving the tour on a Redeye flight.
Drove me crazy, and no I did not get up nor did any other male in my car.
That's the basic rule - if men say ANYTHING that is dorogotory to women it's Chauvinism, but women can bash men as much as they want. It's just a fact of life, get used to it.
09/29/2000
[That's the basic rule - if men say ANYTHING that is dorogotory to women it's Chauvinism, but women can bash men as much as they want. It's just a fact of life, get used to it.]
If God forbid Hillary gets elected, we'll really have to get used to it.
Bill"Newkirk"
> If God forbid Hillary gets elected, we'll really have to get used to it.
And if God forbid Rick Lazio gets elected, we'll have to get used to a whole lot worse!
political debates rage on subtalk once again
09/29/2000
Gotham Bus Co.,
Was this the same preganant lady or a different one ? It seems like they are drawn to you like a magnet. Time to put on a heypaul mask !
Bill "Newkirk"
[Was this the same pregnant lady or a different one?]
A different one. This was much younger and more "showing" than the first one.
Dear Folks,
When I was 9 plus months pregnant, my husband and I were on our way to my doctor by subway. It was cold and I had on a heavy winter coat. My husband and I were both standing 'cuz it was commute time. The train got stuck between stations for about 10 minutes.
As the car heated up, I opened my coat to cool off.
I will never forget the two twenty-something guys with their legs
spread wide open who continued to sit, chat and chuckle even after
it became clear just how pregnant I was. I refused to ask. I just
looked at them. They never offered. Since then, I always give up
my seat to women who are pregnant or carrying children. Women usually do...and the good guys!
I am legally blind. I have some vision, so no one really notices (unless it's at night when I need my cane.) I frequently travel with a totally blind friend, and he almost always gets a seat.
I think you should give up a seat to the disabled or someone whose pregnant, but I don't think these peope should ask you to get up.
I was once on a, oh my God, I can't say it, b-b-b-bus, and an elderly lady came up to me and said, "Get up! You have to let the elderly sit here!" I calmly whipped out my reduced fare, handicapped Metrocard, told her I had as much right to sit here as she does, and to drop dead. When she informed the bus driver, he said he could do nothing because I was disabled and had a right to the seat too.
If she had asked nicely, I would have gotten up in a second. It's a very touchy issue.
PS: Proposed new law. Anyone who doesn't stick in their feet when you walk by on a subway can legally be killed. Just a suggestion.
PS: Proposed new law. Anyone who doesn't stick in their feet when you walk by on a subway can legally be killed. Just a suggestion.
Here's another suggestion: Move to Singapore.
[I think you should give up a seat to the disabled or someone who's pregnant, but I don't think these people should ask you to get up.]
That's my point exactly. The priority seats are placed where they are specifically to allow the elderly and disabled to both sit quickly (without being jostled around) and leave the bus/train quickly (without unduly delaying others). Aside from those seats, relinquishing my seat should be a courtesy on MY part, not an entitlement on THEIR part.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
WHAT THE HELL?!!!! WHY DID THEY SCRAP IT ? WHAT CAUSED THAT TO HAPPEN TO BOTH MODELS? what a waste.
terrence benjamin
#315 had a fire.
#288 hit the end of the tunnel past 205th Street (see- end's gone)
#385 derailed near Kings Hwy and its frame's bent
#4685 has a bent frame; damage is on the OTHER side of the car; similar to that which happened to R40 #4260
Correct me if I'm wrong
Other R44 wrecks:
#215
#140 (after it was renumbered #5282)
wayne
My A$$ is worth more than just a few pics... ;)
Nice pix! How long would you expect them to remain at that yard before they're sent off to their final resting place?
Also, in the 3rd picture down, what's all that material inside 288?
Looks like OF127 got the seats from those R-44s.
--Mark
Very nice pictures (couldn't see the last one - got the old "broken photo" icon). Some unfortunate fires/accidents befell the R44 fleet.
I know they've tried your patience lately. Let's all peace out.
wayne
Hey Wayne,
Thanks, Believe me I have plenty patience, you'd have to in order to deal with some of these characters!
Peace & Blessings to you!
Trevor Logan
(couldn't see the last one - got the old "broken photo" icon)
I am having the same trouble. Why is that happening, Trevor?
- Lyle Goldman
I have no clue, maybe a script error!
Trevor
it did it to me too. perhaps your html is buggy.
My WebTV box was shut off. Too many attachments to one post.
Maybe you put TOO MANY PHOTOS into the post. Thanks for costing me 10 minutes of download time. We're not all on 56k all the time.
-Hank
If you don't want to download the pictures, then hit stop.
Hank,
Can't you ever come out your mouth positive. Stop nit picking, it's damn aggravating and really not needed. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so, ENOUGH IS FREAKIN' ENOUGH!
So what if you're not on a 56K modem. If you didn't want to see them, the you should've cancelled the download, now post a response worth reading.
Trevor Logan
>>> If you didn't want to see them, the you should've cancelled the download, <<<
Trevor;
That's not really a fair criticism since you did not sufficiently identify the pictures ahead of the post to allow one to decide whether to download them or not. You must admit that "Some Pictures For You're A$$" really does not tell one what to expect. And they do not download one at a time, but simultaneously, so to see even one full picture it is necessary to wait the full time of the download. It would be more courteous if all Subtalkers (you, Trevor, are certainly not the only one who does this) would describe what is coming when it will take time to download it (either pictures or a link to another location) and then provide a link so anyone not interested can decide not to take the time to download the additional information..
Tom
A person can ALWAYS click on stop if they don't want to download. There's no need to post a warning.
>>> A person can ALWAYS click on stop if they don't want to download. There's no need to post a warning. <<<
So what's your point? I certainly did not mention anything to do with a warning. I'm not talking about some porn site. I indicated that it was an act of courtesy to inform one what would be found at the end of a long download so a decision whether to download or not can be intelligently made. Having the ability to stop a download does not help if you do not know what it is or if you will be interested in it or not until you have downloaded it.
Tom
Hey, people include (long post!) in their messages, this is the same thing. If you want to include inline images, fine, but 8 of them in one post is utter arrogance. One, maybe 2 is fine. But 8, and having to wait for them all to download before you can see one? And that wonderful suject line? At least I know your style, and they weren't going to be pictures of your ass.
As for saying postive thing Trevor, I've supported you more often than not, haven't I? (at least since I got down off the grammar horse)
-Hank
(at least since I got down off the grammar horse)
You've gotten off the grammar horse? Then what the hell was that comment about exclamation points last week?
That was a quick ride on the Merry-go-Round. I have been a lot worse in the past.
-Hank :)
I can agree with Hank that he can be a stickler for proper grammar and I in the past I have had some rough times with him. The fortunate part is that I personally have taken more consideration for double checking my posts before I make them available for the rest of you to read. So for that I thank you Hank! I also agree with you on the fact that those photos could have easily had links attached instead of the several pics that were attached to the post. I have DSL here at work and it still took a while for me get that whole page loaded to view. We all need to be considerate of this space and respect it. I have learned so much from everyone here and on BT. Let us just get carried away and be considerate of others as well. WE are not all blessed with High Speed Internet Access! Consideration is key!
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
I don't know, everyone's comp is different I guess, after I posted the pics, I went back and clicked on the post and the pics downloading in a matter of 1 minute, FLAT! Another poster claimed to have had a 28.8bps connection and had no problem. Well, in anycase to end all problems, I'm ceasing my operations on SubTalk.
Bye All
Trevor
That wasn't my point!!!!!!!! My point was that Hank tends to find fault in just about everything he reponds to....
Be it a link, a picture, a word, a phrase, a hair on someones ass.
If you look at history of response it's a bit sickening, and after the past weeks fiascos, I've really about had it!
Trevor Logan
You got that right ! Mr ""hank"" does he not have anything nice to say about anybody ?? thank you for posting my pictures on your site
salaam allah. http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
trevor logan told the truth BRO. IS - OON !!!
Thats our Hank!
He it always is his way!
If I told someone on this BBS to dial 1-800-METROCARD for metrocard questions he would say wrong, the phone number is 1800638762273!
You're still our Staten Island beat reporter and expert Hank!
That number is only accessible from outside of NYC, in NYC it's (212) METROCA. The extra numbers do not need to be dialed with either number.
And the rest of you guys are on MY case???
-Hank
What are you going to do the next time you dial (800) METROCARD (or METROCA) in New York City and it won't get through.
That's the kind of stuff that needs to be corrected.
Pigs, get a life!
Your personality reflexs a brand new shiny doorknob i just installed in my apartment.
The 800 metrocard phone number was just a joke, relax buddy!
No, I wouldn't, and you know it. I might ask you if that's the number O or the letter O, however. :)
I've got no problem with correct information.
-Hank
Do you have a problem with that information then? Because it's wrong.
Come on, give me a break!!! If it looks like the downloading is gonna take a long time, you can click stop, or if you really want to see the pics, you copy the link, open up a new browser window, and paste it there. That way you can do something else while the download is taking place. Common Sense!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
DING DING DING DING DING! Thank you, someone hit it on the nose!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Updated as of 5:07pm
Depends on where you are, what you're doing, and the timing involved. I wanted to see the pictures, but I figured there would be 2 or 3 (he did say 'pictures') But 8! (ok, 7, since one was broken) That's just too much for what is supposed to be a message board where the majority of the messages are TEXT, not inline images.
-Hank
* ok mr 8 post your excellent pictures & or post where we can go to a website where we can see your EXPERT pics !!!
I think people who post INAGES is also a part of the message board!
* ok mr 8 post your excellent pictures & or post where we can go to a website where we can see your EXPERT pics !!!
I think people who post IMAGES is also a part of the message board!
You used the key words there, 'message board.' That is, a place to post messages, not pictures. If this were a picture board, it would be a different story.
As to posting where you can see my pictures (and I appreciate that you consider me an expert) I've done so many a time. Just follow the link: http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new
You can also go to http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/xfers
There are no thumbnails, but the file names are 99% descriptive.
-Hank
Stop nit picking,
Well call me a nit-picker, too trevor but in post #156708, salaam thanks you for posting his pictures on your site. Now are these the same pictures you posted here? If so, you didn't give due credit to salaam. If those are salaam's pictures, I'm sure you know what taking credit (even implied credit) is called.
Sorry Train Dude to burst yet another bubble......Those R-44 and R-42 Pics are Mines! I took those with my lovely Fuji MX-700 Digital Camera.
The pictures that Salaam are referring to are his California pics that I posted on TransiTALK via TransiTALK's Contributors Page. Hre is a direct link to the pics Salaam so nicely contributed to us.
Oh and by the way, I'll be up to Concourse Yard pretty soon, so I hope I get to see your face!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Whoa, tervor, you didn't burst any bubble. Frankly, you aren't that important. I was only trying to clarify the info in salaam's posting. However, feel free to take it anyway you want.
Frankly, you aren't that important either! I don't think I am anymore important then the next person on this board. And if you don't want someone to take things the wrong way, you really need to watch how you phrase stuff. I live by one phrase and one phrase one, "For every action, there is a reaction," I give you what you put off towards.
What have I ever done to you for you to act in such a way against me?
Trevor
Now thats telling him like it is !!& Thank you for posting my pictures on your site. I have some new digital shots I would like to send to you please e mail me your mailing address so i can send them to you.
thankz salaam allah
Actually, Trevor, we both seem to have that problem. It was just a week or so ago when I mistook one of your posts and thought you had implied that you were a MABSTOA employee. SO I know how easy it is to misunderstand the postings of another person. And it's not just us either. I got 2 e-mails from people who thought that your previous post to me contained a veiled threat. I told them that I doubted that you really intended it to be a threat.
OH god no, I don't do that kinda thing unless it's putting my life in danger then I get the threating!!
Whoever thought that one, is like WAY OFF, like to the moon Alice!!
Trevor Logan
What......Are you after me or something, Please really lay off of it! I don't take credit when I'm not the author/photographer.
And also....don't be so slick to wanna call someone out there place, I just got a ear load of some interesting information!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I got a 28.8, I'm not complaining. Would you rather he not post them at all?
An easy way to solve this whole problem would be to provide a link to the pictures giving you a choice to see them or not. Here is one of those R44 cars at C.I. Yard I took the picture while my car was in motion from the Belt Parkway sometime last year.
Peace,
Kevin Barsky
transitworld.org
No. But there were 8(7)! And you had to wait for all of them to see any one of them. I wound up downloading them at 19.2 over my cellular, and it was not fun. Technically, my own fault for leaving images on, but I figured I wouldn't see anything here that would take forever and a day to download.
-Hank
Nice photos, thanks for sharing with us.
Mr t__:^)
I will bet that all you have to do is to change the last link from MTA_R42_sbryG.jpg to MTA_R44_sbryG.jpg and the image will appear.
This kind of thing happens to me all the time.
wayne
Okay, one question: When were these pictures taken? Are these cars still existing relics off on some siding somewhere, or were these pix taken ten years ago? It would be interesting to know.
Nice pix regardless of when they were taken!
Self Explanitory Title!
Trevor Logan
10/01/2000
Weren't those R-44's the ones languishing in Coneu Island yard for years ? Seems like the TA is making yard space for mothballed Redbirds.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is it possible to save the doors from #4685? Those are the original doors from the R40/42 series, unlike the less attractive doors in place now. It would make it easier for someone, like say, a museum, to redo the car to make it look more like it did when new.
Here are pics of the R-110B in it's recent state on the C line as of Thursday (Today):
Trevor Logan
Looks fine to me!
It was out for about a while again because of a serious eletrical failure at W 4th Street a while back!
Just letting the Railfans and Pic hunters that she's back!
Trevor Logan
hey trevor,
did they change the schedule for that train? when catching the R-142 and 142A, it seemed that the times didn't match up with the provided time table on this sight. just wanted to know if the R-110 changed also. please let me know.
terrence benjamin
Yes the schedule did change, It is now
South bound 168th at 10:01am
North bound Euclid at 11:28am
Trevor Logan
Mon thru Fri?
TB.
Yep, Mon-Fri!
Trevor
Does my schedule (http://members.aol.com/orentree/R110B.htm) reflect that?
Nope!
Trevor
What do the side destination signs and interior signs say?
- Lyle Goldman
The interior signs are just reading the time, while the exterior says [C][Listen For Announcements] or [C][Not In Service]
Trevor Logan
They really should program the signs to reflect the train's actual route and destination. That shouldn't be too expensive to do, so why don't they?
- Lyle Goldman
TA Stupidity, not knocking them because they are my favorite Transit Authority BUT to this day I've yet to really see the TA do anything that makes true sense!
Trevor Logan
I rode it September 7th or 9th, the first 3 cars had blank exterior digital signs, all interior signs were blank, and the time wasn't even being announced (neither was 'last stop'). At least 1128 was still being displayed on one of the bulkhead digital signs.
Also, the C/R (over the PA) told everyone all about the R-110B and how the next order will look nothing like it, and sorry for making you all run (train must pull up to the 10 marker).
Were is the conductor on the R110B. Is he in the back or the middle of the train. The photos shows a person leaning out the last car and the red tall light on.
Robert
The conductor is in the last car of the train.
Trevor Logan
Hey, my old home station - 42nd St. Cool!
The R-110B so did not run today. I am upset
Nappy
Just a quick point about the R-110A & R-110B trains that has not been made in a long time.
These trains were designed to be technology test trains, to subject new rapid transit technology to the rigors of everyday operation, in ancitipation of what was then the to-be-designed/ordered R-142 and R-143 contracts.
This objective has been long accomplished. The NYCTA has no real need to run or maintain the trains for the orginial reason they were procured. Sure, they give added capacity, and intersting riding for us subway fans. But at some point the cost of maintaining these one-of-a-kind trainsets (including specially qualified crews, unique maintenance requirements, etc.) will be no long worth it. So let's enjoy these trains while we can!
Today,
I caught our wonderful friend the R-110B heading southbound at 10:01 at 145th Street & 8th Avenue. We got to 125th Street and the doors would not open, so they had to walk us back to the 4th car and let us out, then they sent the train O/S to World Trade Center, switched her back up town to 207th Street Yard. I chased this train all the way down town, so once I get the digital pics from my camera, I'll post today's fiasco here.
Trevor Logan
Doors failing to open is not an uncommon occurance on any class of equipment.
instead of putting the redbirds at the bottom of the atlantic, why don't they take some of them and make work trains out of them and recycle the old work trains into useful pieces of metal that can be sold to a company or country that needs the pieces of metal. another thing for the redbirds is why don't they do like what Tokyo did. sold their old trains to another subway system that needs trains. or why don't we give them to SEPTA. don't know if their M-4's are back. knowing that they scrapped all their almond joys, wouldn't the redbirds do a good substitute till the M-4's come back? either that or e just disassemble them and recycle them. more earth friendly
terrence benjamin
Nobody ever said that all 1,400+ Redbirds would be sunk. Undoubtedly some of them will become work trains, although with the majority being in married pairs the R-33 singles would be the most likely candidates for work MOTORS.
David
Some Redbird pairs could be used as money trains and others could become work motors even if they need to be split from their mates, allowing retirement of the older motors.
I'll bet Revenue would rejoice at R-33 cars. A/C and steady lights, yay! Though I'll miss seeing a friendly pair of R-22s roll by 63rd Dr. every morning (and these cars have platform extenders on some doors!)
Sorry, but the lights also flicker on the R33/36 WF cars on third rail gaps. If the TA were to use R33/36 equipment for revenue collectors, platform extenders would have to be installed on B division collectors. Collector agents would be thrilled to have a/c, that I can tell you for sure having worked the collector before. Of course, this would go out the window if they use the single unit R33's.
The M-4's are just fine, thank you, and the last time I looked (Aug 5) a large number of Almond Joys were stored at 69th Street.
The MFL uses non-standard track gauge, they can't borrow cars from anybody, nor can they lend them out.
In the early 1990s, some single-unit Almond Joys were sent from the Pennsylvania broad gauge Market-Frankford Line to the standard gauge Norristown High-Speed Line. They were re-trucked, using trucks from PATH K-cars that had recently been retired...so it can be done!
David
It can be done, but why? There was a need for those Almond Joys to go to the Norristown line, and I'll bet they racked their brains for weeks before reluctantly agreeing to that. I don't understand why they didn't just ask us for some R-30s.
Wait...they needed singles...never mind.
I would rather have the redbirds on The MFL then the M-4's. The M-4 fleet, IMO, is the worst that SEPTA has in their system (next to the N-5 Norristown fleet).
Instead of having all these different threads that feature the "best of" this and the "worst of" that, let's do it all in one shot.
Ladies and gentlemen, presenting the:
1st Annual SubTalk Awards!
Needed --- your nominations for:
* best subway station
* worst subway station
* best subway line
* worst subway line
* most improved line
* least improved line
* cleanest line
* dirtiest line
* best subway equipment (e.g. R44, R32)
* worst subway equipment
* best on-time performance
* worst on-time performance
* railfan's choice (line with the best scenic view)
Unfortunately, I haven't come up with a name for the awards themselves (a golden MetroCard-type trophy), so any suggestions you may have regarding that is appreciated.
Can't wait to see the what you guys come up with!
--Sly
2ND annual sounds more appropriate?!
* best subway station
Penn Station 1-2-3-9
* worst subway station
never seen one i didnt like
* best subway line
1/9
* worst subway line
yet to be seen..
* most improved line
7
* least improved line
G.. still doesn't come to Manhattan.. :)
* cleanest line
1/9
* dirtiest line
5
* best subway equipment
r26, r28, r29, r33, r36, r62.
* worst subway equipment
r-142s
* best on-time performance
1/9
* worst on-time performance
A
* railfan's choice
the 2 down the spine of nYc.
In case you haven't been here in the last year I tried the FIRST ANNUAL SUBTALK AWARDS and NOBODY CARED. No matter how hard I tried! I still have all the nominations (those I got) and if you people would participate we could ACTUALLY GIVE OUT AWARDS!!!
Here are MY categories, some have been chosen from the nominations I did get, some haven't:
Best Thread
Best Subtalker in a leading role
Best Subtalker in a supporting role
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role: Train Dude
Best Website Host: Dave
Funniest Subtalker: Heypaul
Best Flamer: Subway Crash
Worst Transit Official
Worst Elected Official (transit wise)
Subway Criminal of the Year: Guy who broke into tower
Best Subway Supporter
Best Subtalker in the field
Best Animated Gif.: David Cole
Most creative handle: PoRI for LIAR to NYC Penn Station
Most changed handle: Pigs
Best contributed article: Avid Reader for his many Subway Spy Thrillers
Best contributed photos
Most prolific poster
Most prolific debator
Worst speller
Life time award ... Subtalker since day one & still active
Funniest Single Post
Best Website Maintained by a Subtalker: Forgotten NYC
Best Overseas Contributor: Simon Swindon
Technical Awards
Best Transit System: NJT
Best Forigen Transit System
Best Subway Car (any system): SEPTA M4
Best Subway Car (NYC): Redbird
Best Station (NYC)
Best Line (NYC): A
Best Station (any system)
Best Line (any system)
Best Commuter Railroad: NJT
Best Interlocking Tower: DOCK
Best Yard: Coney Island
Best New Transit Project (completed): HLBR
Worst Subway Car: R33 Single
Greatest Transit Boondoggle (pending or completed): Camden Trenton Light Rail
Please send in Nominations for the unchosen!
The Second Annual Subtalk Awards will be held again IN MARCH!!!!
>>> In case you haven't been here in the last year I tried the FIRST ANNUAL SUBTALK AWARDS and NOBODY CARED. <<<
Mike;
Did you notice the difference between Sly's categories and yours? His stick strictly to the NY Subway system which is the main interest of the participants of this message board. Yours go all over the place, so only a few of those posting would feel they had the knowledge to reply.
For instance, to respond with any intelligence to most of the technical awards category, one would need an extensive knowledge of rail systems all over the world (i.e. best station on any system). You may have that knowledge, but most of us do not.
The awards for various categories of Subtalkers puts the medium before the message. Subtalk should not be some sort of competitive enterprise like an athletic event in which participants try to outdo each other. It should be a place to discuss a common interest.
Tom
Mike, buddy, don't bust a gut over it. I didn't know. I'm still reletively new here on the boards, and though I read posts from in the archives every now and then, I didn't come across this one. Didn't mean to step on your toes. It's just that I saw a lot of threads for the "best" of this and that. So I guess your thread is finally coming to pass even if it didn't catch on back when.
When you come out with your second "awards" thread, count me in as a participant.
--Sly
I'm not mad at you, only that I put some work in to the awards previously and nobody cared. I just wanted to remind people that we had another awards slate already in progress. As you now know the "Annual Subtalk Awards" deals with both technical and substantive issues. If you had been here, I let everyone nominate things for categories they sugested. Response was somewhat tepid (some ppl did respond and I thank them) and w/o input the annual subtak awards sorta died out. I would love to see a .gif subwalk award and ppl or places that win would recieve an award via e-mail or have one taped up on them.
Aw what the heck, here are my subtalk award choices:
Best station: Ditmars Blvd. on the N. Where else can you see Amtrak and subway trains at the same time never mind yummy Greek food and beautiful women?
Worst station: Broadway on the G. The half-abandoned platform and the weird brown slime all over it says it all.
Best subway line: 7. Without a doubt.
Worst subway line: R. The slowest in the system.
Most improved line: Franklin Shuttle. Think about how this line was not 3 years ago.
Least improved line: C. The line runs straight through Manhattan yet runs every 10 mins. during the rush. One delay messes everything up.
Cleanest line: M.
Dirtiest line: E. Filthy and loaded with homeless people. This is my strongest opinion.
Best subway equipment: R46. I cannot vote for the R142 because it's too new. None of us knows whether this train will be terrific or just a really expensive lemon like the R68A.
Worst subway equipment: R68A. Junk.
Best on-time performance: 7. Shuttles don't count.
Worst on-time performance: N. This was a toughie.
Railfan's choice: 7. Killer view of NYC and no transverse cabs.
I HATE THOSE TRANSVERSE CABS !!!they are not needed in nyc !
* best subway station-81st Street/Central Park West(among those I've seen)
* worst subway station-ENY. Too confusing and too crowded
* best subway line-7
* worst subway line-tie between 6 and F
* most improved line-Not sure
* least improved line-6
* cleanest line-not sure
* dirtiest line-not sure
* best subway equipment (e.g. R44, R32) R26, R28, R29, R33, R36, R62/R62A
* worst subway equipment R44, R46, R68/R68A
* best on-time performance-None of them
* worst on-time performance-All of them should be here although the 6 is the worst
* railfan's choice (line with the best scenic view)-Probably 7 although I only did that when I was young and now can't remember it.
5th Ave/CPS (N/R)
Union Square (4/5/6)
7
N/R
L
Anything that runs thru Dekalb Ave.
A
F
Speed: R40 comfort: R46 reliability: R68
Speed: R68 comfort: R40/R38 reliability: redbirds
L, 7, J/Z, A
B/D/N/Q/R/4/5/6/2/3
Personal fave is the Brighton line (D/Q)
Though I do not live in New York and am unfit to answer most of these questions, I happen to like them because they seem to appeal to many more people than did those of the first annual subtalk awards.
I do not plan to vote, though I wish to suggest seperating the last question geographically, hence naming the lines by name, not by letter or number. I would suggest the following regions:
1. Manhattan
2. Bronx
3. Southern Brooklyn (the LIRR from Flatbush Terminal to Atlantic Avenue should be the divider). (Bay Ridge, Coney Island trains, Brooklyn IRT)
4. Northern Brooklyn + Queens. (all G, Queens Blvd, 7, L, Fulton St, Eastern BMT).
Though I do not live in New York and am unfit to answer most of these questions, I happen to like them because they seem to appeal to many more people than did those of the first annual subtalk awards.
I do not plan to vote, though I wish to suggest seperating the last question geographically, hence naming the lines by name, not by letter or number. I would suggest the following regions:
1. Manhattan
2. Bronx
3. Southern Brooklyn (the LIRR from Flatbush Terminal to Atlantic Avenue should be the divider). (Bay Ridge, Coney Island trains, Brooklyn IRT). This should also include the SIRT.
4. Northern Brooklyn + Queens. (all G, Queens Blvd, 7, L, Fulton St, Eastern BMT).
Best Subway Station (Elevated):
Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island
B,D,F,N
(I like the overpass used for the transfer between trains. Otherwise, I would nave voted for the Flushing Line's newly renovated stations with the stained glass windows.)
Best Subway Station (Underground):
81st Street-Natural History
B,C
(The new artwork in the station makes it the best underground station)
Worst Subway Station:
Atlantic Avenue
2,3,4,5
(This station is in dire need of repair. It going to end up like Cortlandt Street for 3 years ago on the N/R if they don't do something.)
Best Subway Line:
7
(Good train service. I never have a problem when I need to take the Flushing Local/Express.)
Worst Subway Line:
R
(The SLOWEST train. Wall to wall from 95th Street to 71st-Continental Avenues.)
Most Improved Line:
D/Q
(Service has actually been better for me on the Brighton Line.)
Least Improved Line:
2/5 Flatbush Line
(Trains still dirty, late, etc.)
Cleanest Line:
F
(Every time I have stepped in a Culver Line train, I never have seen garbage.)
Dirtiest Line:
5
(It speaks for itself....)
Best Subway Equipment:
R68A
Worst Subway Equipment:
R110's
Best On-time Performance:
7-Flushing Line
Worst On-time Performance:
R-95th Street Line
Railfan's Choice:
F-Culver Line
(I like going past the cemetary and seeing the old stub of the Culver Shuttle. The orange line for the platform is still there.)
For Railfan's choice I'd rather choose the
D/Q Brighton Line.
Best Subway Station (Elevated):
Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island
B,D,F,N
(I like the overpass used for the transfer between trains. Otherwise, I would nave voted for the Flushing Line's newly renovated stations with the stained glass windows.)
Best Subway Station (Underground):
81st Street-Natural History
B,C
(The new artwork in the station makes it the best underground station)
Worst Subway Station:
Atlantic Avenue
2,3,4,5
(This station is in dire need of repair. It going to end up like Cortlandt Street for 3 years ago on the N/R if they don't do something.)
Best Subway Line:
7
(Good train service. I never have a problem when I need to take the Flushing Local/Express.)
Worst Subway Line:
R
(The SLOWEST train. Wall to wall from 95th Street to 71st-Continental Avenues.)
Most Improved Line:
D/Q
(Service has actually been better for me on the Brighton Line.)
Least Improved Line:
2/5 Flatbush Line
(Trains still dirty, late, etc.)
Cleanest Line:
F
(Every time I have stepped in a Culver Line train, I never have seen garbage.)
Dirtiest Line:
5
(It speaks for itself....)
Best Subway Equipment:
R68A
Worst Subway Equipment:
R110's
Best On-time Performance:
7-Flushing Line
Worst On-time Performance:
R-95th Street Line
Railfan's Choice:
F-Culver Line
(I like going past the cemetary and seeing the old stub of the Culver Shuttle. The orange line for the platform is still there.)
For Railfan's choice I'd rather choose the
D/Q Brighton Line.
i just thought i would tie two threads together...
Subway and rail cars stop using dynamic braking. NYCTA cars slow down to around 5-7 MPH before the air comes in. Why is it that sometimes I see the T/O apply the brakes and the air gauge rises right the way?
The needle should always move right away. That's the straight
air pipe, which is the control line that determines the strength
of the brake application. The actual brake cylinder pressure is
not indicated on the gauge.
Even though the car is slowing down with its dynamics, the air pressure is available immediately as a backup if the dynamics fail.
Called a freind at the turnstile/farebox vendor to thanks him for thinking of me when he went to a Newark grand re-opening ... I now have this neat coffee cup pad with photo of inside of station.
Anyhow we talked some business related to my depot and I happened to ask what he had heard about MVM & MRMs. Apparently the TA changed the design at the last minute for the MRM. They now want the Re-fill machines to be able to issue MCs ... seems to make since, if you insert a can that has problems or is over a year old the machine should be able to issue you a new one. On the MVM front about 1,000 of the 1,500 ordered have been delivered & most of them are installed.
Smart cards ... the MTA is talking seriously about these cards. You might even see one of the Chicago/Washington machines installed somewhere in the system for a test.
Mr t__:^)
Mr t__:^),
Would you mind explaining exactly what a "Smart Card" is, as opposed to a Metrocard? Thx.
KP
Sorry, just goes to prove that I've been on theis board so long that I make assumptions about the knowledge level.
Smart Cards are all the rage in the credit card industry. American Express had a BIG roll out recently. They are also starting to be used in many transportation systems. The E-Z-Pass is a kind of Smart Card. Some of the bus systems use a smart card for maint. diagonistics.
Chicago & Washington D.C. use the same mfg. for turnstiles & fareboxes as NYC. The Smart Card in use there are the same size as the MetroCard, just a little thicker (as a collector I have one of each). The main difference is that it has a R/W chip inside vs. a mag. strip.
There is usually a requirement that you BUY the blank card, then put money on it (i.e. they don't indend that you throw it away, but re-fill again and again).
Use: They are also called "proximity cards" because you just have to get in the proximity of the reader. Some systems use a "docking port" that you place the card on, turnstiles have a disk that you put it on top of, fareboxes may have the disk on the side.
For the MTA they COULD use these cards in the TA, at the bridges and on the commuter systems (M-N & LIRR). They ALSO can record when/where you got off as well as when/where you got on.
Mr t__:^)
Oooooooooh. Like the Mobil "Speedpass" you attach to your keychain and wave in front of the pump. Having a "Smart Card" system for subway fare-collection makes so much sense I'm flabbergasted that they even bothered with the flimsy, dirt-gathering, environmentally hazardous metro-card swipe or dip systems. Especially when customers will cover the cost of the card up front. Go figure.
TA probably worried that someone would complain that they discriminate against poor people.
Proximity cards ... not a bad idea in general, many of us probably use them to get into our workplaces. But I have a concern about their use in the subway. What if, for whatever reason, you stand or walk near the turnstiles without actually entering - might you have a fare deducted?
I have to get my card within less than an inch of the reader for my proximity card to function at work, and it's the wave-in-font-of style, as opposed to the physical contact style. I think you could eliminate this danger by placing the reader smartly, as it were.
My friend lives in a med-security housing complex, and needs one of those cards to enter the property as well as his individual section. The readers are poorly maintained, so much so that you almost have to touch the card to the reader! Not good if you're standing in the train and trying to get in!
I meant rain.
You'd have to get pretty close - the RF field needs to be contained to a pretty close area around each turnstile or there would be interference between adjacent turnstiles.
You'd have to get pretty close - the RF field needs to be contained to a pretty close area around each turnstile or there would be interference between adjacent turnstiles.
I checked out the proximity card which I use to get access to my workplace - it has to be within about three inches of the reader pad to work.
RF field? You mean these things have miniature radio transmitters embedded in them? Isn't that hazardous to the carrier's health? Remember radium-painted pocket-watch dials?
Maybe if the MTA is smart, they will make simply install DCSmarTrip targets and use SmarTrip cards so people who frequently go between DC and New York will only need one card.
They will absolutely NOT do that. The MTA wants their money to come to them. This may get modified slightly with some of the mass transportation companies in NYC, i.e. NJ Transit, CT Transit, etc. but there's no way they'll share the money with Washington & Chicago.
Mr t__:^)
When can we expect the MRMs?
Next year some time. The mfg. is almost ready to start testing the revised MRM.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or nycDOT, so my information should be considered as heresay vs. a official statement.
Mr t__:^)
We've had horrible mornings for two consecutive days on the F, due to a train with door problems eventually being taken out of service.
I guess all the conductors from the early 1980s have moved on. Since there were door problems on every train every day back then, they knew how to hop out, isolate the door, and get the train moving with only a typical five minute delay. These days they futz around for ten minutes and then discharge.
Was today as bad as yesterday? I'm glad I took the 7.
What's WITH the Queens Blvd. line anyway?
Andrew
Both days, the problems were in Brooklyn, where I live. Perhaps there were problems in Queens as well.
To all Jewish subtalkers, have a great Rosh Hashanah and wishes for a sweet new year.
(Too bad it fell out on a weekend, though- I like when I get extra weekdays off. It allows for better train riding. Well, there's still Columbus Day/Yom Kippur.)
L'SHANA TOVAH to one and all
Thanks folks! I'm a Jewish subtalker myself. May we all be inscribed in the book of life.
:)Andrew
A Happy and Healthy to all.
I second the motion. A Happy & Healthful one to all my Jewish cohorts, and everybody else, too. May we enjoy our hobby for another
blessed year!
Chuck Greene
L'shana tova tikatevu to you too!
That's why I'm on LI :-)
I'm now heading over to Mineola station to pick up my parents who are coming in from the city... (they live in FLA now). I told them to take th 4:19 PJ train, which is a dual-mode bilevel (these life-long NYers have not experienced either yet). I'll get there early of course to watch the fleet go by...
(Too bad it fell out on a weekend, though- I like when I get extra weekdays off. It allows for better train riding. Well, there's still Columbus Day/Yom Kippur.)
Yes. This year sucks, BOTH days of Rosh Hashana are on a weekend, and two holidays (Columbus Day and Yom Kippur) fall on the same day!
It's like Ash Wednesday, parking is suspended anyway.
Actually its the opposite. Rosh Hashonah is extra special this year because it falls on the sabbath!!
Are the R142 and R142A's gonna have the color coding stickers that the other trains have under the car number?
The color coding is:
2-Black
5-Green (my 2nd fav color,next to blue)
6-Yellow
And when are the R110B and R110's gonna go back in service
I think that they are gonna start putting the stickers under the #s of the R142/142A when all the testing are done, and when the full complete deliveries of the R142/142A is all complete in full service.
1) What is the orange diamond express "B" sign for? I saw this on an R-68 N train once.
2) What's the procedure if a train overshoots the station by a yard? Once, a train did that and I heard 2 short buzzes(from an R-32, I was standing on the platform), and the conductor opened the doors.
3) How does the TA determine where to put the signs that tell trains of various lengths where to stop?(You know, the 10,8,6,4 on the white squares) Is this the same for stations that are longer than the train?
4) What are the yellow rectanglular signs around the middle of the platforms for? They say "During off-hours, trains stop here." A few of them say "Board shuttle train here."
1. At one time, B trains operated to 168th St. during rush hours, while at all other times they terminated at 57th St.-6th Ave. After the original K route was eliminated, there were two B services during rush hours, alternating between both terminals, and it's possible the diamond marking was used to distinguish trains operating to 168th St. from those going only to 57th.
4. That yellow boarding area pertains to late-hour service. It is generally recommended that customers ride in the middle of the train at night, since the conductor is generally there, and the yellow area denotes where the middle of the train will be when it stops.
Also the yellow sing is most often within the sight of the token booth, so as to avert would be crimnals.
And in many cases there is an emergency intercom there.
(I find it interesting that the PATH system intercoms are not just for emergencies.)
1) Diamond does not automatically mean express. It originally meant rush-hour service. The diamond B was from the days when some rush hour B trains went to 168 St instead of 57/6.
2) I don't know the exact policy (AFAIK backing up isn't allowed), but 2 short buzzes means "OK". A TO to CR would most likely mean "open up". CR to TO would be "buttoned up". (I heard the latter quite often in the 70s and 80s when half the time the TO wouldn't get indication even tho the doors were secure.)
3) I was told a long time ago that it's based on (platform length - train length) / # cars and then biased in favor of proximity to the in-use exits from the platform.
4) They started in the 70s when crime in the system was rampant. It was meant to keep people closer together on the platforms and in the cars at night to reduce crime. About the same time, many late night trains were reduced to 4/6 cars cuz of all the maintenance problems, so it prevented many from walking all the way to the end of a platform only to have to run all the way back for a short train.
I think backing up isn't possible in the older equipment, but on the new stuff it is possible.
I know SEPTA MFL overshoots often (with the M-4s), and the T/Os back up every time.
1- Like the prior posts, the diamond B was used for rush hour service to 168 St. Now, it can be used for rush hour service to Bedford Park Blvd. However, most R68A's do not have a diamond B.
2- If a T/O overshoots a station but all the doors remain abreast of the platform, then the T/O gives 2 buzzers to the C/R letting him know that it is ok for him to open the doors. This part is ok in accordance with TA policy.
If at least one door misses the plat, then the T/O gives one long buzz to signal to the C/R to not open the doors. In most cases, the T/O drops the DC 1 or 2 circuit breaker preventing the doors from opening in that first car, after that then gives two short buzzers to the C/R who would then open the doors on the balance of the train, and the passengers would then walk to the second car in order to get off the train. That would be if two or more door openings fail to reach the plat. If only one misses, then the T/O would just guard that door opening and the passengers would use the other three openings in that first car. This however is against TA policy but following TA rules in this case would get the T/O in trouble with labor relations so it is "covered up" instead by the crew.
3- In most cases, the car markers are set up so that at least part of the train stops adjacent to the stairway directly leading to the 24 hour token booth.
4- Points out either the C/R's position on the train or the spot to wait when trains run with fewer cars than normal. The "board shuttle train here" sign other than the obvious, is used sometimes to point out the T/O's position during OPTO service.
Question about the answer to Question 2: If two or more doors miss the platform on an R-44, R-46 or R-68 where all end doors are locked, what is the procedure to allow passengers in the first car to leave the train?
The T/O manually unlocks the two storm doors on the first two cars. Or if possible, "key" open a door in the first car adjacent to the platform.
Hello everyone. Did you hear that SEPTA is installing new things so that they could run the new El trains automatically? Well, they are. Will they be able to see if someone is in the doorway as the doors close? Presently, there are cameras on the platform so the operator can see the people on the platform. Well, this is another way that SEPTA is serious about change, and also, how AdTranz is not that bad!
If I'm not mistaken I beleive the PATCO Line has the same type operation. Should be interesting.
I am almost positive that operators will continue closing the doors as they are now. PATCO, WMATA etc. all have operators close their own doors.
On ATO operations, the T/O on the train uses either CCTV, mirrors or sticks his head out the window(depending on the station) to close the doors. The T/O is supposed to see the entire length of the train so as to close the doors safely and prevent a drag. In the event of CCTV or mirror failure and there is no supervision available at the affected stop, the T/O after closing the doors keys open one door, leaves the train and physically looks down the length of the train to make sure that it is safe to move. He then re-boards the train, closes the one door panel and then hits the "doors closed" button to start moving the train.
The only ATO subway line(that I know of) that does not use a T/O or any human crew AT ALL to operate is the RATP(Paris, France) Metro Line 14 which runs between Madeline and Bibliotheque Francois Mitterand. This line is seven stops long and is run entirely by computer.
There is a metro mover in Orlando that is run entirely by computers, although that is only a one car train.
Also, the Vancouver SkyTrain has no operators on board, nor do I believe the Jacksonville Skyway has operators on board.
I don't think SEPTA is intending to use ATO on the El, rather the cab signal functions will be used to replace the wayside fixtures. At some point actual ATO may occur but operators will still be needed for door operation, security, etc.
Interestingly, PATCO has had ATO since it opened but keeps operators for the doors as well as possible malfunctions, which happen more than one would think. Also, in bad weather (snow, ice, etc) the ATO is 'turned off' and operators take over, with the ATO merely serving as the block signals.
There is a story on WMATA about an operator who left the cab for some reason and closed the doors behind him. The train got its impulse and left, making several station stops (without doors opening at any of them) until supervisors could intercept it.
PATCO has had ATO since it opened but keeps operators for the doors as well as possible malfunctions,
The PATCO ATO is very "primative" and would not work well in a multi-lined system like the Metro. The ATO is ment more as a convienance for the drivers and keeps the trains operating at max efficiency (100% speed). The driver is free to switch off the ATO whenever he/she pleases and drive the train in manual mode. They only need permission to cut out the ATC cab signaling speed control system.
Since PATCO's Budd 1969 cars probably don't have many years left, (made 1969, 2009 will be 40th birthday) is PATCO thinking about getting new cars that may be capable of fully automated operation? And if Vickers cars are incapable of such operations, I'd imagine such a vehicle could be used on the SIRT to (or are they already planning an ATO for that line).
While in the PATCO shop on a pre-arranged visit in June, we were told by shop management people that maintenance on the Budd PATCO cars was such that they did not have an estimated wearing-out date.
Sorta like a B-52. They are slated for retirement in 2040. Sorta funny that we are keeping those old guys around while scrapping the newer, larger fleet of F-111's on the advice of some shady defence contractors who wanted to hock a smaller number of replacement F-16D's. Don't blame Clinton for our sorry military, blame General Dynamics. Same goes for A-7's, A-37's, most of the A-10's and F-4's. If we run fast maybe we can get them back before the trash truck comes. We really need to reexamine our quality/quanity balance.
-Another digression brought to you by Jersey Mike.
The PATCO Budd cars and NYCT Budd R32's! Built to last! When they're gone, they can say "I Led Two Lives!" Both models ain't goin' anywhere while they see their younger counterparts go to "the big yard in the sky!"
I don't think that neither The Budd nor Vickers cars will be going anywhere for a long time, and when PATCO does get new cars, the new cars will be used to AUGMENT the fleet, not replace it. I do think it's time for PATCO to update the interiors of the fleet, after all, that avacado green and woodgrain paneling does look so '70s.
Yes, the interior is pretty bad. I can't stand the color and the small window, but it would seem to be a waste of money to replace such things. As for the lifespan of the Budd cars, I am just unaware of any subway car ever to operate in my lifetime to live more than 40 years. I know the North Broad cars surived 54 years, but all of the new stuff (including the Almond Joys) have not lived long past 40.
Issac, if that was the case, then SEPTA certainly wasted their money on new interiors for their Silverliner IV fleet (Their 26 years old now). The PATCO fleet is very well maintained, and as it was stated before, could go another 30 years. The Almond Joys would have been around longer if these two factors came into play; air conditioning, and better trucks (like the Pioneer III or the GSI General 70, instead of the Adirondack trucks), the carbodies and the traction motors were still in good condition at the time of their retirement (speaking of fleet retirement, I'm betting that the M-4's will be retired in five years).
If WMATA would allow their crews to have turned off the ATO liberally, the motorman that died during the ice storm a fewyears back would not have been killed and we would not be stuck with Larry Reuter. So much for safety.
Maybe that's why Larry's #1 priority is safety. He doesn't want to get squeezed out again for the same reason.
I hate to disagree, but
1) PATCO was designed to be a network of routes in South Jersey someday. It will probably never happen, but there were plans for extensions to Moorestown, Glassboro and Burlington at one point. The ATO would have been able to handle the entire network. Of course, it was designed in the 1960's but it has been upgraded, computer-wise, since then.
2) PATCO operators and supervisors have told me that ATO must remain 'on' unless there are conditions during which electrical impulses in the rails could be misread. This is most likely in cold, damp weather. The only exception is on the Ben Franklin Bridge where speed is limited to 35 and there is a power phase-break (Peco and PSEG supply the Phila and NJ sides respectively and both supply the bridge). Additionally, over the past several years, and still ongoing, construction on the bridge has affected train travel necessitating operator control for slower speeds near the work zones.
The operator sets the 'throttle' during all train operation but that merely sets the train in motion - ATO handles speed control, braking, etc. Many people mistake this 'throttle setting' as control of the train.
That's right. Cab signalling is now being installed on the MFL, starting at the east end. The project also includes new control rooms in several stations, and traction-power return systems for the M-4's regen braking. Plus, SEPTA is installing a new system-wide fiber-optic network, and CBTC signalling is simultaneously being installed in the subway-surface tunnel.
It's amazing to see SEPTA finally taking the lead with new technology.
(Sorry to be so late to the discussion...)
>>>It's amazing to see SEPTA finally taking the lead with new technology.<<<
Then why isn't SEPTA installing cab signals and ATO on the BSL? That line needs it more than the MFL because it's 4-tracked and the Ridge Avenue Spur.
Actually, I would argue that it makes perfect sense for the MFL to get cab signaling before the BSL.
The MFL is not very efficient as it runs now - the line suffers regular delays, and the skip-stop service does not seem very effective. At least part of this can be blamed on an aging, inflexible signal system. Operating at capacity during peak periods, the MFL could probably provide better service with a modern signal system. Expanding to 4 tracks is certainly not an option.
The BSL is the fastest, most efficient line in the system. The express tracks are a big part of this. The line also sports excellent, fast trains. Unlike the MFL, there is no urgent need for service improvements.
The main reason to install cab signalling actually is maintenance and reliability. Having small solid-state trackside equipment is much cheaper to maintain than traditional signal systems. Also, service is improved due to fewer signal-related fail-safe events interrupting service.
Another issue is the rolling stock. The new M-4 cars were designed with cab signalling in mind, making such a transition *relatively* cheap and painless. The BSL Kawasaki rolling stock, on the other hand, would have to be modified significantly to support a modern cab-signal system, making such a project a costly and risky endeavor.
The last time I spoke with someone in-the-know at SEPTA, they said that they plan to replace the BSL rolling stock around 2012 or so. At that time, they plan on moving to CBTC signalling for the BSL. By 2012, CBTC should be ready for prime-time on a line like the BSL. Of course this is all so far in the future that everything could change, but last I heard, that was the long-term plan.
So why install new signals on the BSL when service is adequate with the existing system, and old rolling stock would mean increased risk and cost compared to the MFL project? Maintenance savings would be the only possible reason to do it. But with new cars in the foreseeable future - arriving probably before the maintenance-savings payoff (given the cost of a new signal system) - why not wait and do new cars and signals all at once, like they are doing with the MFL?
Are the Kawasaki B-IV's that bad to be replaced after only 29 years? I thought they run so good. To me, it makes more sense to retrofit something on something already existing than to build an entire new car with the latest stuff. I own a '72 Volkswagen Beetle, it did not come with A/C. I've installed an A/C kit in it, and I love it. Does it make more sense to spend only $1,000.00 for just an A/C kit than to spend $20,000.00 for a completely brand new car? I do think there does come a time to get all new equipment, but if something can last 50 or even 60 years, by all means use it.
I think the public sector transit works like many government agencies.
The budget set up is insane. I recently resigned from a state university out west and it took as much paperwork to buy a bolt as a it did a computer!
It was often a case where a large amount of money would came into the system at the last minute like at the end of a fiscal year and you could buy a large capital item (big bucks) but not the bolts you need for day to day ops. Different line item. Anyone who was in the military will remember this type of thing if it is your only government "job" experience...
I could not stand it any more.
The rules are written to prevent theft and fraud, but people still steal. The Rules are arcane and the only ones who can sell to the big systems are the Regular suppliers. Think kickbacks at worst and favors at best.
I ran some labs and it was impossible to do work. When I worked in private business the accountants and purchasing worked for us. They were support staff and if they did not help the business they were in trouble. Paperwork was light. In government you jump through the accountants hoops.
So, now an older piece of equipment is starting to give you a hard time and is nickling and diming you every day.
The private sector in a good business might rehab it, but it is almost as much paperwork as buying new to a government agency. The general public is so used to cars lasting 5-15 years they will not fight when you announce you need new cars at 28 years.I would not blame the Maintainance Engineers it is the whole system.
Of course a stainless steel budd car shell has a life I calculate with the help of a geologist! Everything else is upgradable like a PC!
I love when they replace things , PCC cars in newark subway for example, because they have no air conditioning. I will air condition any Pcc car for 15,000 and make money. This is an offer if anyone needs it done!
joe
Well said RDC.
To Trevor Logan,
I would like to know on what's going on with both the 63 St/Queens Blvd Connection & the Manhattan Bridge plan for 2001.
Please post the latest information you have that you have receive from NYCT's Operations Planning.
This is the current "proposed" plan given to me as of this past tuesday from operations planning, on paper (Paper did state Draft Copy):
July 2001
Weekday Rush
(B) Bedford Park to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Exp, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(Q)2 57th/7th to Brighton Beach (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Exp)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal
(F) Normal via 53rd Connection
(R) Normal
(G) Normal
(M) Metropolitan to Bay Prkway (Myrtle Lcl, Willy B, Nassau Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Lcl, West End Lcl)
Weekday Midday
(B) 145th to 34th/6th (CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(Q)2 57th/7th to Brighton Beach (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Exp)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal
(F) Normal via 53rd Connection
(R) Normal
(G) Normal
(M) Metropolitan to Chambers (Myrtle Lcl, Willy B, Nassau Lcl
Weekday Evening (after evening rush)
(B) 145th to 34th/6th (CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(Q)2 57th/7th to Brighton Beach (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Exp)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal
(F) Normal via 53rd Connection
(R) Normal
(G) Normal
(M) Metropolitan to Chambers (Myrtle Lcl, Willy B, Nassau Lcl)
Weekday Night
(B) Not Running
(W) 36th to CI (West End Shuttle)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Lcl, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal (Queen Blvd Lcl)
(F) Normal (Queen Blvd Lcl) via 63rd Connection
(R) 36th to Bay Ridge (4th Avenue Shuttle)
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th
(M) Metropolitan to Myrtle (Myrtle Shuttle)
Weekend
(B) Not Running
(W) 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, 4th Ave Exp, West End Lcl)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel (possible reroute to Manny B), 4th Ave Lcl, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal
(F) Normal via 63rd Connection
(R) Normal
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th
(M) Metropolitan to Myrtle (Myrtle Shuttle)
_____
August 2001
Weekday Rush
(B) Bedford Park to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Exp, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(Q)2 57th/7th to Brighton Beach (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Exp)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal (3 out of the 15 will terminate at Union Tpk due to JAM PARS ARCH capacity restraints)
(F) Normal via 63rd Connection
(V) 71st to 2nd Ave (Queens Blvd Lcl, 6th Ave Lcl via 53rd)
(R) Normal
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th (Will Implement free transfer to the 7 at 45th Road)
Weekday Midday
(B) 145th to 34th/6th (CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Exp, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(Q)2 57th/7th to Brighton Beach (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Exp)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal (all terminate at JAM)
(F) Normal via 63rd Connection
(V) 71st to 2nd Ave (Queens Blvd Lcl, 6th Ave Lcl via 53rd)
(R) Normal
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th (Will Implement free transfer to the 7 at 45th Road)
Weekday Evening
(B) 145 to 34th/6th (CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Exp, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal (all terminate at JAM)
(F) Normal via 63rd Connection
(V) 71st to 2nd Ave (Queens Blvd Lcl, 6th Ave Lcl via 53rd)
(R) Normal
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th (Will Implement free transfer to the 7 at 45th Road)
Weekday Night
(B) Not Running
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Exp, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Lcl, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal (Queen Blvd Lcl)
(F) Normal (Queen Blvd Lcl) via 63rd Connection
(V) No Service
(R) 4th Avenue Shuttle
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th (Will Implement free transfer to the 7 at 45th Road)
Weekend
(B) Bedford Park to 34th/6th (Concourse Lcl, CPW Lcl, 6th Ave Exp)
(W) CI to Astoria (West End Lcl, 4th Exp, Manny B, Bway Exp, Astoria Exp)
(D) 205th to 34th/6th (Concourse Exp, CPW Exp, 6th Ave Exp)
(Q)1 57th/7th to CI (Bway Exp, Manny B, Brighton Lcl)
(N) CI to Astoria (Astoria Lcl, Bway Lcl, Montague Tunnel, 4th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Lcl)
(Sn1) 21st/QB to Bway/Laf (6th Avenue Lcl)
(Ss) Bway/Laf to Grand Street
(E) Normal (all terminate at JAM)
(F) Normal via 63rd Connection
(V) No Service
(R) Normal
(G) Court Square to Smith/9th (Will Implement free transfer to the 7 at 45th Road)
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Is this right? The N will be running express on 4th Ave. on weekends starting in August 2001?
According to this draft sheet in front of my face it will be! But of course it's a draft sheet and is subject to change.
Trevor Logan
Well since it's subject to change, hopefully one of the changes will be that the (Sn1) train will not be needed as it duplicates the V train from Queensbridge to Bway/Laffayette when the V is in service. During nights and weekends the (Sn1) train should be the V train.
•First, the shuttle from 21st to Bway-Laf. must end when the connection opens, since the F will be running through there.
•In the 2nd phase, the W will be running to Astoria 24/7?
•The Q has evening exp. service the first phase, but not the second?
•The B runs weekends the 2nd phase, but not the first? (It's supposed to begin weekend service uptown in a couple of months)
Why doesn't the MTA build a crossover before the bridge so all of the 6,7,and nassau lines can pick what side to take
The following is NOT intended as a slight against Trevor Logan, but it must be said:
Trevor Logan is not the only poster to this board. If there is a question that one feels only Trevor can answer, one should ask him by e-mail, as he often provides his e-mail address with his posts. If there is a question that one intends to direct to the board's readers in general, by all means it should be asked on this board, but it should not be directed to Trevor...or any other individual.
Other people on this board may have the answers to questions that are posted on the board, and as one who has some of the answers (some of the time), I resent that all of the questions are being directed at one person -- and the person the questions are being directed to is not part of the process by which decisions are being made about the items being asked about.
Now, to answer the question: When the service plan is released to the public, which will be soon, we will ALL know. Even then, a public hearing must be held, and if sufficient opposition to part or all of the plan is generated, the plan will change. Until then, there is nothing going on that is worth talking about.
David
Well, it's worth talking about. But it must be stated that Trevor's "official" information has no more legitimacy than an educated railfans fantasy plans. There is no plan yet, only "ideas". What Trevor is posting is the "ideas" of transit authority officials.
Trevor's "official" plan, IMHO, will pobably be THE plan, with the ridiculous idea of routing the F thru 63rd and the V thru 53rd being the only change.
Really, enough is enough, this time I clearly stated "This is the current "proposed" plan given to me as of this past tuesday from operations planning, on paper (Paper did state Draft Copy)" so no crap can be given about my post.
Really, if there is a "real" problem with what I post, take it to my e-mail which I always give, as a matter of fact here is a list of my e-mails, pick one:
tlogan@transitalk.com
no7220onthe6@aol.com
metrod3700@cs.com
surface__transit@hotmail.com
I check all e-mails everyday!
Thank You
Blessings to all!
Trevor Logan
I'd really appreciate it if you would quit with the fantasy comments, not like I've said anything in the past when some really off-the-wall stuff was posted, not saying you, But i can remember about a year ago someone posting they saw a Blue R-10 in service, I damn near dehydrated from the tears from laughing so hard, now that was the biggest bunch of horse manuer I've heard/seen since I've been the Central Park Drive.
Everything I post is what I get, Not thought up and not dreamed. And if you notice, now I post pics with my post to prove with the two eyes god has given everyone!
Trevor Logan
I understand. But some people have taken your posts as official plans which WILL be put into affect on the date of the bridge flip. I'm reminding these people that this is NOT the case.
Although I don't have any beef with any of you, I think that you should all give Trevor a break. Everytime he posts something, everybody (well maybe not EVERYBODY)but most people come back with a "sinister" remark about how he's a liar etc.... Some guy asked him a question to which he responded with the info he has, whether true or not. Let's just move on, and stop the "attacking".
Peace Out,
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
The only rationale I can figure out for the V-Queens local via 53rd St. plan is it allows local passengers between Continental and Queens Plaza currently using the G to transfer only once, at 23rd-Ely, to get to the G at its planned new terminus at Court Square instead of having to take the R to Queens Plaza, change for the E or F and take that one stop to 23rd-Ely.
The problem, as has been pointed out dozens of times already, is you'r going to slow down all the traffic between 36th St. and QP by having the V switch over to the express tracks going into Manhattan, slowing down the E train (and any F train behind it), and having the V cross over to the local tracks heading out to Continental, slowing down the N (or the V and any E train waiting behind it).
Trevor may be right that this is the option the MTA is going to choose, but I'll be it only lasts a couple of years at the most, before they start running the local through 63rd St. and put both expresses back through the 53rd Street tunnel.
I'm not basing my belief that this plan will be axed on operational difficulties (which are substantial). I'm basing it on the fact that F riders will scream bloody murder at losing direct service to 53rd. St, a MUCH more desirable location for most commuters than 63rd. St. The 10 block difference here is incredibly dramatic, as 63rd/Lex is a more residential area than 53rd., which is the location of dozens of important office buildings. Not to mention the loss of a transfer to the Lexington Ave IRT.
There are only a few people who would be inconvienenced by having to x-fer at Queens Plaza to get from a QB local stop to the G line. This isn't justification for the proposed service plan.
Trevor, perhaps you can explain the logic of having the Fs run through 63rd St. and the Es & Vs run through 53rd St. What do you think will happen with this arrangement once the Manhattan Bridge A/B tracks are re-opened? With the Bs & Ds terminating at 34th St and the addition of the V service, what do you anticipate will be the fallout as far as through-puts on the 6th Avenue corridor?
Your guess is as good as mines! According to the draft sheet I recieved the A/B tracks are suppose to be out until 2004.
Trevor Logan
That shouldn't be affected, because the B & D are on the express tracks, and extending them back on the bridge won't have anything to do with the F & V on the local tracks. The Q will stay on Broadway, and I don't know if they might want to extend that through the Bway-63rd St. connection. Perhaps if they do the reverse exp. tracks plan, which was supposed to be the next phase of the Queens improvements. But all of that's a ways off, so they might not even be thinking about it now.
Chris, I agree about the 53rd-to-63rd shift -- It will force F riders seeking to transfer to the Lex or who work on the East side in the lower 50s-upper 40s to switch at Roosevelt to either the E, V or R, and with the latter two running local you can guess which train they'll choose. It will only make the E and the Roosevelt Ave. platform more crowded than they already are.
Outside of the one-transfer-to-the-G reason, the only other explanation I can figure out for the plan Trevor listed was the honchos at the MTA wants to show all the good people of central and eastern Queens who use the F train their wonderful new 63rd St. tunnel. Vanity on the part of the MTA's top brass would be an idiotic reason to make a change like that, but we're talking Jay Street here.
It's probably for the sake of continuity. Since the 63rd St. stations will need full time service, and the F is a full-time line, they just run it through there all the time, instead of switching it back and forth from 53rd to 63rd when the V doesn't run, or end up making the V the off-hour Culver service.
You want to try to confuse the least number of passengers as possible without causing operational problems. With that said, I don't want to speculate as to what may happen or what I think should be done to make me happy. To confuse the least number of people and knowing that a given passenger makes his/her round trip at any given time in a 24 hour period and keeping in mind that you would have massive congestion at Continental if one service terminates there and another goes thru to 179 St. You will also have massive congestion of trains crossing between express & local tracks at Queens Plaza. Here is my theory: E and R run as is. F is always via 63rd St. and Queens Blvd. local. But have the F terminate at Continental during the same hours that the R runs to Continental and extend it to 179 St. during the overnights. Run the V between 179 St. and Second Ave. (Queens Blvd. exp.) when the F terminates at Continental. So 53rd St. and 63rd St has the same lines running thru 24/7, with the V replacing the F thru 53rd St. at all times except midnite hours. The E replaces the R on Queens Blvd. local during midnites. So the only people who really have different routes running is 75th Ave, thru 179 St. as the F would run midnites and the V will run other times. Problem: I doubt if the R46 has a F designation to Continental. Other than that, how do you SubTalkers feel about this?
I'm very confused!!!
Just kidding!!!!!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Nah, me no like that plan. I say, leave everything as it is with the new V train running from Continental Av., local through Queens and running through the 63rd St. connector. That's easy enough.
If that F train runs on 63rd St. as is planned now, there is going to be some major overcrowding during the morning rush at Roosevelt Av. as people get off the F to wait for the E or V. Lex/53 and 5 Av/53 are two very popular stops. There are definitely going to be some problems if they implement this. MARK MY WORDS!
P.S.Yes, there is a sign on the luminator that says "F-71/Continental".
Point well taken. Should they should run the V 24/7 to have the same route thru 63rd St. all the time? If not, I would hate to see the F go via 53rd St. and then go via 63rd St. on the midnite when the V isn't running. I can't justify two Sixth Ave. routes going down Sixth Ave. on the midnite. As for the Queens Blvd. express, under my senario, the V would have the same frequency as the F has now. The F via local & 63rd St. would have less frequency than it has now (every 4 to 5 minutes now would be dropped to 6 to 8 minutes to match the R). One problem: Brooklyn F riders won't be happy! No matter what the plan is, I guarantee NOBODY is going to be happy! The way the plant is made out, it is a lose lose situation. Now if that brand new route thru Queens was made when the 63rd St. tube was planned.......
I think that TA wants to force more people on the local as it runs below capacity during the rush hour.
Arti
That's a good point to which I agree 100%. It is that psychologically good feeling that someone can save lots of time on an exprees even though it saves only 4 to 5 minutes! Sometimes none. Case in point: How many times do I come into Queens Plaza in the PM rush with my jammed packed E train, and an R comes in across the platform and people jump off that train and onto mine, which came in less crowded than mine to start, and now I have a crush load, and some of the same people who have just gotten on at the plaza get off at Roosevelt to wait for the exact same train they vacated at Queens Plaza!
I remember reading some MTA study on their web site a while ago pretty much conforming that. If I remember correctly they also had observed people switching from R to exp trains goint to Manhattan.
Arti
They may want to force more people on the local trains, but outside of having MTA platform personnel armed with machine guns standing in front of the E trains when they stop at Continental and Roosevelt, they're not going to change human nature. People are going to want to take the express, and anyone wanting to transfer to the IRT Lex at 53St or who works in the area around there (or Fifth Ave.-53rd) is going to try to transfer to the E, instead of sitting though all those local stops on the V to the 53rd St. tunnel.
Like I said before, running the V as a local in Queens and through the 53rd St. tunnel does make things a little easier for the current G riders, but it's going to slow down more people than it helps if the MTA does implement that route proposal.
Not to mention the loss of a transfer to the Lexington Ave IRT.
Gee.... don't New Yorkers have any patience anymore.
*This* will be taken care of when the 2nd Avenue Subway is completed!
Elias
Oh right! I forgot that. How silly of me.
Then why not run the F local in Queens and the V express if they're going to send the F through 63rd St.
Well, one of the problems they have now is the B, D and Q are limited in the number of trains per hour they can run because they share trackage between DekKalb and 47th-50th. Moving the Q back to Broadway increases the number of TPH the B and D can run, unless you stick the V on the Sixth Ave. express tracks.
The F is all by its lonsome on the Sixth Ave. local tracks right now, so there's lots more track capacity there for a V train, as stupid as it seems to run one train local and one express in Queens and then send them down the same line in Manhattan.
huh?
Actually do elaborate, please!
Arti
By running three trains on one line per hour, you naturally limit the number of trains any one line can run, compared to a track that only has two lines in operation.
If track capacity on the Sixth Ave. express is 30 TPH, then divided evenly, you could only run 10 B trains, 10 Ds and 10 Qs per hour (that's not the exact number, just an example). Take the Q off the Sixth Ave. express and you boost the potential maximum number of TPH for the B and D. This wouldn't affect riders in midtown Manhattan -- they would still get their 30 TPH -- but it would help riders going to the Bronx or Brooklyn.
Meanwhile, the F runs alone on Sixth Ave., so there's more potential track capacity there. So long as they don't merge with another line in lower Manhattan or Brooklyn, the potential number of V trains per hour going to/from Queens during rush hour could equal the number of E trains per hour that are sharing the express track with the F between Kew Gardens and Fifth Ave., since that track is already maxed out during rush hour.
So running the V as a Sixth Ave. local gives the MTA the ability to put more trains on the Queens Blvd. local line than they could running the V as a Sixth Ave. express ... assuming, of course, they had enough trains to run the V, which until the R-143 order comes in, they don't.
Over the summer I ran into a few snags on SEPTA or PATCO or Amtrak and each time I have been impressed that the train crew have not dumbed down the situation when explaining it to the passengers. On PATCO we had just pulled out of Ferry Aave. and just over switch 53E we lost the cab signal and the train stopped. The driver went through his bag to tricks to no avail and then anounced that we would be delayed due to a "loss of cab signal".
On Amtrak Train 3 (Southwest Chief) I had my scanner going and I heard the following "BNSF detector...milepost eight six point two...track number 1...first dragging equipment near axle 8-8" etc etc. Well I was thankful it wasn't a hotbox or something, but then I heard on the PA the train crew saying we would be delayed for a few min because of dragging equipment near axle 88 and the conductor was going back to fix it. Talk about being frank!
There have been a few other cases that I can't recall where the train crew have used railroad lingo to anounce a problem and I think its great that they are not dumbing things down or lying.
PS: I wonder what Speedy Joe SEPTA engineer said over the PA after the LSL dumped his air on the Harrisburg Line? "Well ladies and gentremen, my plan to save you time cost you about 5 minutes."
Here in washington the Metro t/o's are being instructed to stop using complex technical terms like "Single-Tracking" or "Bus Bridge." At least some people are not dumbing. Here is the story from WP online.
So you'd rather the customers be left going 'huh?' when they don't understand the technical terms that you, as a railfan, understand?
-Hank
There has to be a middle ground between technical language and incomplete information. My least favorite is that "we are stopped because there is a red signal ahead of us." Well, duh. WHY is the red signal ahead?
It's really no better when the airlines have you sitting on the tarmac. There is no fun way to hear you are screwed.
The airplane-on-the-tarmac scenario is way worse -- the equiavalent of a subway train pulling 20 feet out of a station and then sitting there for two hours while they turn the air conditioning off (and then having the MTA brag that the train left the station "on time")
As a passenger, I don't care WHY it's red. I only care about WHEN we'll be moving again.
-HAnk
The latest news from this morning there are new plans being made.
1. The 30 Day test will end Sunday Night with no new trains coming to Pelham.
2. The R142A Test train 7211-7220 will go to 207 Street shop Monday morning for modificatons to the train.
3. After 7211-7220 leave 207 St Shop with in 2 weeks or how long it takes the R142a 7211-7220 will have to pass a 15 day test on the Modificatons before any other R142A's go in service. So the Redbirds will be alive and well for another mouth. Those Redbirds must have 9 lives.
Sorry 7221-7270 will stay layed up until the test train passes a 15 Day test after the Modificatons are done.
gee... that is quite a change in plans from last we heard... i've been told that decisions at the highest levels are based on the roll of a pair of dice... they must have come up doubles this time...
Yes, snake-eyes.
wayne
Notice I always use the TA's favorite Words
This plan is "Subject to change"
The thing that gets me the most is everything should have been fixed by the end of the 30 Days Now A Modification and a New 15 Day Road test. I wonder if they will keep the same Schedule up.
what is being modified?
i've heard from my usual deeply disturbed sources, that they are thinking of providing a back-up propulsion and control system in the unlikely event that the computer control system crashes... plans are to replace one r-142 truck from each car with a powered red-bird truck... on the left side of the transverse cab, they will install a complete set of controls from the retired redbirds... thus, in the event of a computer failure, the train operator would only have to change sides of the cab and in this way help maintain on-time performance...
install a ""RAILFAN WINDOW"" & I will give my final stamp of approval!
that might be a possibility... they are considering splitting the transverse cab into 3 sections... a right side enclosed cab for 142 control... a separate left side enclosed cab for redbird control... and by popular demand in the middle, direct access to the storm door railfan window, reserved for people who have the good fortune to reside in the mta western division, which used to operate a public transit system, before it permanently closed the system in oct. 2000...
the storm door will handle will be specially made to provide yet a 3rd level of back-up in the event the 142 and redbird systems both fail... the train operator will be able to control the speed and brakes of the train by moving the handle sideways, just as many of us did in our youth...
Pelham Bay Dave wrote:
So the Redbirds will be alive and well for another mouth
I think you meant another month!!! I know how it is when you're typing fast. Just sounded funny!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Its been a Long day. All 3 trips I was dragging behind the Parkchester train ahead of me and it was a slow ride home as well.
Yeah, I understand how you feel!!!!
Peace Out,
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
What about the R142? Are they also doing mods on it, followed by a 15 day test; or is it in regular service already?
Thanks Dave, I have to say I am delighted. In November I am over for Subway Tour No7. Sadly, it will probably be my last tour with a full field of Redbirds. Tne more there are around the better. I know that Subway customers can't wait for the new trains but I trust you will allow me this small indulgence.
Simon
Swindon UK
I will be in the city in three weeks and am looking forward to saying "hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds" one more time. A jaunt on the 7 express is at the top of my list of things to do.
What are they modifying?
As of Now I think its the doors and brakes but I'm not sure. But it will be at 207 St Shop for 21 Days starting Monday.
The R142(BOM) may do some testing on the Rockaway Line but I don't know when.
I guess we'll see how the cars are when they come out of the shop. 7266-70 are on the TA Property now, so it's just a matter of time when we'll see all 60 cars on the road. By the way, do you know what cars (#s please) are getting mothballed?
-Stef
At this time I do not have any Info on the Mothballed fleet but my guess would be the R33'S and Mainline R36's because there in better shape.
This is ridiculous! Why do they need brakes and door modifications? What is the MTA trying to do, test these trains to death?
Evidently the 30-day test showed that the equipment as delivered couldn't stand up to the pounding it has to take on a daily basis. It's better to find that out now, and make changes before the bulk of the order comes in, then to have lemons clogging up the subway system on a daily basis.
David
They don't want deja vu all over again, I'm sure.
Testing on the Rockaway Line? What for? The Bombardier R142s were already tested there earlier this year. I don't get it. Why do they need to go back there?
I din't know why but there are talking about doing it. I'll try to find out more if I can. The people who gave me the Info are no longer at Pelham because they left with the R142A.
Was watching surfing the program listings on the dish tonight when I saw that the History Channel in 5 minutes was going to have a subway story on the show "History's Lost and Found". Turns out it was story on the MINEOLA, august Belmont's private car! Of course they got a LOT of facts wrong [the first set of Interbourough cars were NOT made of wood {at least not ALL wood}, the 1908 Joralemon tunnel was NOT a leftover from another effort {they mustve got it confused with the OTHER 1908 tunnel for the H&M somehow...},etc,etc....At LEAST it made for a real nice plug for Shoreline....If you want to catch it,it will be repeated at midnight Eastern time, and it is the second story of the show. Anybody know a guy up there named Nathan??
Not that I ever really care about transit mistakes on TV or movies you did fail to mention the most obvious one:When they were talking about the original IRT cars and as you mentioned they said they were wooden-They were showing file footage of the R1-9's!!!
Oh yeah...well considering how little subway footage there probably is available to TV shows, I don't even notice that srt of thing anymore....[was it the same footage that is from that little 1947 Board of Transportation short? THAT footage has been seen EVERYWHERE - even was used backwards in the I LOVE LUCY episode which takes place on a Low-V supposedly!!]
The clip in reverse on I Love Lucy features R-12/14s on the 7. There is also stock footage of first generation IRT equipment, awkwardly edited in spots, and R-1/9s on the AA.
actually, Nathan owns A auto body repair shop in Brooklyn. My parents know him for a long time and do business with him.
Yeah, I live in Canarsie and his shop is just a short ways down Remsen Ave. from me.
BMTman
The one thing that it did show correctly is that the Mineola needs some work by a wood craftsman before she can come out & play. Also, as has been said by others here, she needs to have most of her operating hardware re-installed (not originals that were lost, but replacements found here and there). Maybe someday in the not to distant future she'll be able to join the others there.
Mr t__:^)
I've just noticed that the messages in the archives do not have post forms.
That's not a bug.
-Dave
why isn't there a postform?
If you want to continue a thread from the archives you have to come back to the regular Subtalk to do it.. The archives are read-only. Is it really too much effort to cut and paste a subject line back to the active board? The archive runs on a separate server, doesn't have access to the handles database, etc.
Another question that i have is why dont the database sections go from one section to the other
If it did, you'd complain, "why does it take so long for the message index to show up"? It takes a LONG time to parse 150,000 messages for threading. So I compromised by breaking them up into 1,000 message sections. Is it so hard to use the pulldown at the top to jump to the next section?
Face it Dave. You can't win with some folks.
-Hank
My problem with the archives is that I can't get in. I don't care about the post form. I'd just post a new message on the active board and say that this message is in response to the linked message (I'd provide a link to the message in the archive).
How seldom do you come here?
I didn't that anybody would actually have taken me seriously when I mentioned the postform "bug."
My problem with the archives is that I can't get in. I don't care about the post form. I'd just post a new message on the active board and say that this message is in response to the linked message (I'd provide a link to the message in the archive). The link on SubTalk doesn't seem to work.
Well, here's an interesting thing. I just noticed that several off-peak Hudson line trains to Poughkeepsie have been split. A semi-express takes over the local stops before Croton Harmon, and stops at Marble Hill, Yonkers, Tarrytown, and all local stops to Croton Harmon. The Poughkeepsie trains go straight to Croton Harmon before discharging passengers. Amtrak trains charge double and make an additional stop at Yonkers, and the crawl through Riverside Park is = to the time used stopping at 125. So for more bang for the buck, go Metro-North.
Croton Harmon only has 1 ACMU (1168 or 63), and no Hudson Line trains today were ACMUs (I checked all Grand Central departures until 6:15 PM). I guess they were all moved to the Harlem line. A train of ACMUs left after a guy put his luggage on and before he got on, he ran and jumped on at the last doorway just before the end of the platform (thanks to the signal). A woman almost fainted after the train moved when she had one foot on the platform, and one on the train. That goes to show, you should listen when the Conductor says 'All Aboard.' Its not a suggestion.
The train I rode from Croton-Harmon today happened to be all CDOT, so I got a café car!(the P.T. Barnum) (yes, this trip had no purpose whatsoever, I got out of school at 1:15 like I do on alternating days, so I had time). The Genesis engine had trouble in electric mode, so the lights were on emergency for most of the tunnel (and on Shoreliner Is, that's the same as no lights). The drawbridge at Spuyten-Duyvil was opened almost immediately after the Chicago train passed through, and I saw several blank stares from the Circle Line boat going through as CONNECTICUT DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION rolled by (I thought this was New York!).
At this point in time, I turn toward the TV, and see a man jumping on the roof of a Metro-North Shoreliner II at 125st. Strange that this particular scene in U.S. Marshals is on as I type this. (The movie will be repeated at 10:30, so that scene should come on again sometime after 12:20).
Plus, taking MN you get to enter New York as a king, and not scurry in like a rat.
Ah, another fan of "Amtrak's Penn Station!"
Like the new handle! I'll change mine in mid-February, I figure I'll have a different one for every year I'm here.
I wonder if circumstances will ever occur where an Amtrak train will be required to go to Grand Central (I know this has to be planned due to different 3rd rails; ie. Amtrak borrows a few FL-9s after bridge over Harlem River is damaged).
I wonder if circumstances will ever occur where an Amtrak train will be required to go to Grand Central (I know this has to be planned due to different 3rd rails; ie. Amtrak borrows a few FL-9s after bridge over Harlem River is damaged).
I saw a couple of Amtrak trains in Grand Central just after the big blizzard in January 1996.
Just a wild question out of the blue. Do you own one of those talking "Bubba Catfish" things?
What (or who) is "Bubba Catfish?"
I have always thought the same thing about Amtrak. Not just in NCY either.
The Amtrak Trains that operate here in the Chicago Area on Metra's Burlington Northen Santa Fe seem like they are always going realtively slow, maybe 50 m.p.h. max. They also make stops in Naperville and LaGrange. Metra has many week-day trains that run in express from Downers Grove and Naperville. Downers Grove now even has a Saturday Express train. The Metra trains are always "cookin" at the 70 m.p.h. max on the express runs and between stations when they can get up to that speed. Metra's new handicapped cars are also very comfortable and QUIET. I rode yesterday in the handicapped car by chance and was amazed at how quiet it was.
I have to say from experience, the Metro-North Rail-Road, atleast the New Haven line, really impressed me. I usually stay in Connecticut and commute into NYC when I visit NYC (every 2 years or so). The Trains are clean, very comfortable for commuter trains, quiet, and fast! The express service between Stamford and 125th, and Grand Central is excellent. 7 days a week express service, for every local train is unheard of in most other places. And not even to get into how amazing Grand Central Station (Terminal as they call it) is.
This is just one of the many things that make NYC so great. Chicago will always be a close second, but you guys that live there in NYC, realize that you are very lucky, you live in the Capital of the World, NYC!
BJ
GCT may be the best*, but its only because everything better was demolished or turned into a mall. Madison [] garden IV would be a definite improvement over GCT. I'd rather crawl through the sewer to get into NYC than submit to the "Commedore" and his evil New York Central System.
*BTW 30th St. station has more air space than GCT has in its concourse and is a mich nicer station. I'd even rank Newark Penn (intermodal wonder), Suburban (art deco style) and New Haven (simple elegance) over GCT.
We all know about the grudge you hold against the NYC. It's not unexpected of a die-hard fan of the Standard Railroad of the World.
I am always amazed at 30st station whenever I visit. The info booth is dead center in the middle of a gigantic concorse. It looks odd when you see the guy standing there in the middle hoding the mike making the announcements, and hearing it from all sides around you. The windows at least were not blocked by office buildings, like Grand Central's were (not the station's fault).
GCT can at least boast 3 digit track numbers, how many other stations can do that?
I don't know about 30st Station, but GCT is just beautiful and amazing in my opinion. The renovation caused by Jackie Kennedy is awesome. All the Shopping areas, including the transit museum store, are very nice. You will pay a lot, but if you don't have time to go to the grocery store when you get home, you can just pick up a couple steaks before you catch your train home.
I ate one night at Micheal Jordans Steak house on one of the upper levels and was amazed just sitting there. Looking down at the rush of people and all the energy they had. Then looking up at the beautiful artwork and ceiling of the station. I was really pissed off to find out my camera didn't develop the pictures I took inside GCT, it doesn't do to good inside I have come to find out. It only focused in on the departure boards and lights and the rest of the picture was dark.
The Subway station was even very nice, they were working on the passage way to the S, Shuttle, which looked to be very nice through the doors in the temporary wall they had put up.
GCT will always be the best Train Station in my opinion.
BJ
GCT will always be the best Train Station in my opinion.
What about the Pre-1964 Penn Station? That had GCT beat in every category.
My only experience in the original Penn Station, or what was left of it, was on July 20, 1965 while en route to the World's Fair. The only thing I can recall was the booming announcer's voice over the loudspeakers that afternoon. This has been discussed before, and hindsight being 20/20, they never should have torn that station down.
Isn't that one one those fish that wiggles and sings!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
Fraid so. It's in Wally Mart and Sears and every discount house under who knows how many different names. Definitely for the "more money than good sense" crowd.
Well, after I left Grand Central today, I decided to take the QM10 home. I accidentally use my Student Pass, and surprisingly it said:
Student OK
Every time I attempt to use the card on an express bus (regardless of the company), the operator blocks the slot and says "it won't work." Well, I sure showed them! Is this a bug or what is supposed to happen? I know LI Bus says "Invalid Card" when a student pass is used, so it is possible to disallow use.
Ah well, I got a free $3 ride home, so I'm happy. The operator wasn't even looking, he was probably using the sound of the tone to tell him wether someone paid or not.
You might think this belongs on bustalk, but Metrocard questions pop up more here, so it seemed more appropriate.
You were supposed to pay $1.50
I've never had a problem on Command. In fact, whenever transferring from a local bus, the system would automatically demand $1.50. I had a problem ONCE, when I only paid $1.50, but in that case the driver was an idiot because even with a regular pay-per-ride pass someone transferring from the M3 would pay $1.50 (although it would be automatic unless their last $1.50 was for the M3).
I once used my card on the QM1A to Fresh Meadows, and it too worked.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
If you have the "1/2 Fare" card you need to deposit $2.25 (75 + 2.25 = 3.00)
If you have the "Free", then you need to put in $1.50 (1.50 + 1.50 = 3.00)
If you have the "Special Program Pass", i.e. school trip, it won't work on a Express bus.
If you have a "Night High School" card it won't work until after noon, i.e. 1 PM, nor will it work on Friday.
If these cards aren't doing that reliabily there may be some restriction on some Express route that I'm not aware of.
BTW, We get a number of kids travling, ligamently, from Queens to schools in Manhattan every day.
Mr t__:^)
I guess that what the students who use the X32 to get to the Bronx HS of Science use.
MTA express busses do not allow the use of student cards. The computer WILL reject it. The BxSci students riding the X32 have to pay $3.00.
HUMPH!
A bus is a bus is a bus (sort of)
If local equipment had been diverted to an express service, a last minute re-program of the fare box may have been done incorectly or not at all, and mayhap all riders on that run were only charged a single fare.
I know nothing of bus equipment but I do not believe in absolutes either.
Elias
I hate when local equipment is routed onto an express line. That $3 pays for a soft seat too.
The one time that happened to me, the bus was practically empty, so it was FAST and made up for it.
Unfortunately, two people who were on that bus had to go to Bergen Beach, if they didn't, that would save the extra 5 blocks, u-turn and those five blocks again (plus a left turn instead of a right turn).
Often I find express equipment on the Q-74, its fun to see unsuspecting passenger reactions to reclining cushy seats. Sometimes happens to the Q-32 as well, but not as often. Yes, it charges only one fare.
With the transit challenged & dependent ( persons here without cars )
now reaching the points of evictions homelessness & untold misery, guess what?? Now the Los Angeles County workers ( all of them ) are now going to go on strike also!!I beleive local 666 ......
HELL THE WHOLE COUNTY IS SHUTTING DOWN & GOING ON STRIKE !!!
( hell is not half full here ) We are in trouble folks !!!!
>>> With the transit challenged & dependent ( persons here without cars ) now reaching the points of evictions homelessness & untold misery <<<
Salaam;
The misery is certainly untold to the rest of us. How many evictions have occurred because of the strike and where was the story reported? How many have been made homeless by the strike and where was that story reported?
For a slightly less emotional, but more factual look at the MTA strike after two weeks there is this story from the L.A. Times which includes some of the specific proposals being put forth in negotiations.
Tom
I read that.
The names of the people mentioned in paragraph four were Smith and Wesson!
What number does this lastest change of handle get and where are you in the SubTalk Handle Change ranking?
Are you surrendering Royal Island??
And since you are now The Other White Meat, would you rather be fried, baked, or broiled???
Inquiring minds must know.
Pigs of Royal Island would was my longest lived name.
This one is the fifth.
Since he's a boar, I say we roast 'em on a spit over a fire made of used railroad ties. Boar's a darker shade of pork, kind of like the loin end pork chops I prefer over the center cut ones. A little gamey but mighty tasty.
wayne
Railroad ties!?!? CREOSOTE! YECCH !!!
Old Tom I am talking about the real VICTIMS the forgotten VICTIMS who cannot go to the dentist doctor clinic work to pay thier rent buy food having thier incomes cut off & or challenged & thier rents either not being paid or cutback etc because they have no private vehicles they are not paying almost two dollars for gas !!
Of cource the blame is the MTA & his DISHONOR the los angeles mayor!!
None to very little coverage of those who are the most helpless of all
& that is the the transit dependants transit challenged those with out ownership of private vehicles cars vans & carpools !! Walk thumb a ride risk arrest on a jypsy cab even if it is FREE or have no way to go to work to buy food pay the rent & dont get sick & need medical attention Old Tom you are then completely done in !!!
And old tom the media couldnt give a rats you know what about the transit riding working classes of ordinary folk here...AT ALL!!!!