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i am sorry i cant highlight this in blue with my old mac 650 ..
BUT
this is my website log this in ..
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/masstransitcommentary
... or if you like send me an E mail
& i will gladly send you a link!!
let me know what you think thanx.. salaamallah..
thanx is spelled with a ""x"
Salaam;
I visited your website and it looks like you have a good beginning. You should post a link back to this site.
GOOD LUCK!!
Tom
Is it a crime to board a NYC Subway Car
with a camcorder in hand?
Moreover, is it a crime to have camcorder
pegged to a railfan/railside window
or pointed at the interior of the
subway car while in recording mode???
Without a photo permit, yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Is it a crime to board a NYC Subway Car
with a camcorder in hand?
Moreover, is it a crime to have camcorder
pegged to a railfan/railside window
or pointed at the interior of the
subway car while in recording mode???]
Subtalk's neverending question arises yet again :-) As has been discussed many times, photography on the subway is legal as long as you don't use tripods or artificial lighting. That would cover use of camcorders as well as still cameras. As far as pointing the camcorder at the interior of the car is concerned, well, it might be legal, but it doesn't sound like such a good idea - other riders might not take kindly to it.
Notices from the Transit Museum for the recent Nostalgia Trains had the policy summarized. Use of camcorders is legal but tripods and ancillary equipment (for instance, external lighting) are not allowed on any of NYC Transit's facilities (unless you have a photo / press permit).
--Mark
Good to know!
As a public service Yahoo is offering this quick quiz on netiquette.
NETIQUETTE QUIZ
avoid the wrath of the subtalk net police.8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Great, but it seems they left out the most important thing-don't use all caps!
-Hank
It's not covered in the quiz but, it is in the tips section.
Peace,
ANDEE
I noticed from my last joyride on the Train, I saw a sign on the 3 that said lights off, underneath the signal. What does this sign mean?
It tells the T/O when he can turn off the inyterior lights (all cars are out of the tunnel). Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
It tells the T/O when he can turn off the interior lights (all cars are out of the tunnel). Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
Lights Off
That tells the Train Operator to put the car body lights off which is done on sunny days above ground. If its dark outside the lights stay on.
Lights ON
That sign is before the tunnel reminding T/O'S to turn the car body lights on.
(Lights ON
That sign is before the tunnel reminding T/O'S to turn the car body lights on. )
Maybe a sign is needed at Brooklyn Bridge to remind T/O's that they need to change the bulkhead destination signs. Quite a few 'forget' to do it. When I see it, I try to nicely tell the T/O and the usual response is "I'll change it later".
Offer to change it yourself!
Yeah !!!!!
They need one of those "Lights On" signs at the 45th Road stop on the 7 line, towards Manhattan. A couple of times, the lights were off all the way to Vernon-Jackson.
I was on one car on the C line that had all its lights off. It is good for railfan window viewing!
I just found a really old copy of Trains magazine under my bed. It was the September 97 issue. It was talking about the DE30's before they entered service. It showed a picture of 400 in schenectady LI. However, the first DE30 I ever saw was 421 over Archer avenue on its way to Jamaica station.
whatever happened to 400?
You haven't seen 400 yet.
-Hank
It's still around. BTW, anyone notice how the earlier DE30s have slightly different locations for the fuel cutoff button. Thought it was weird having it next to the LED readout on some, below on others.
Good morning,people! Has there been any progress on my ''most favoritist''happy happy joy joy project? There ARE answers out there, we just need to find them. WITH me as Your HIGH EXALTED MYSTIC RULER,and you as my loving subjucts[HA!YEAH,RIGHT,SURFS MINIONSWHATEVER],I know I can count on you guys to fill me in or better yet,keep me posted[along with any bribes,kickbacks gifts and not any thing less than the best] Overall I love you guys to death[huh...?]and i have nothing but fond thoughts for all here on this board[what...?]so we shall bid you a fine adue[adu..? what the....are u talkin about? GEOUTTAHEAH]!!! the ruby visor couldnt hold back the optic blast any longer, and the professer,turned, just in time, to avoid being blasted to paste.'' Im sorry'' Cyclops screamed!!! Xavier,shaken but not hurt looked at the young neo-mutant......
Salaam, is that you?
If it is, he's history, thanks to Dave's No Posting under two names at the same time rule. Borg and Marty were the same person, and Borg is gone. That rule was prominently posted by Dave in that thread. It's also stated on the apply for a password page.
My first impression was that it was Jersey Mike on bad acid.
Couldn't be. Redbird, R-142 bad, railfan window, and vidieo were not in the post.
You forgot to mention, styrofoam, S for scrap, transverse car club and windows don't open Oh, and PROJECT REDBIRD...(thank you).... 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Keep your computer off before smoking that herb. It will prevent accidents like this from happening :)
Greetings from a former NYCer in DC. I've been lurking on here for a few months and thought I'd finally come out of the woodwork with a question.
At the Grand Av station on the Queens Blvd line, there's the rather odd conglomeration of "curtains" and lateral cross-beams between the support beams in the trackways. Was the station constructed that way, or was this added later because of a structural flaw?
Does anyone know?
The station turns under Queens Blvd at that point. The structural work is to support the street above. I think it was part of the origial construction.
The turn onto Queens Boulevard occurs just at the east end of the Grand Avenue/Newtown station. Actually, the subway proper does NOT follow the curve in Broadway exactly, it goes just to the east of it then turns under Queens Boulevard. It's underneath occupied structures on the north side of Broadway, hence the FDNY code requires that I-beams and support columns beneath structures be clad in fireproof materials, i.e. tile or concrete.
The east entrance is at 54th Avenue and Queens Boulevard, just east of the junction with Broadway. The station was built that way.
wayne
I thought I had seen them all, but apparently not as I just got my hands on a new one:
- Night High School - Student Transportation (green, #05-30-1128)
Other known Student cards:
- Grades 7-12 (green, Free)
- Grades K-12 (green, 1/2 fare)
- Good for Two Trips (green, class trip)
- Grades K-6 (Orange, 1/2 fare)
Mr t__:^)
You made a mistake in the list. It's actually...
Full Fare
---------
K-6 (Orange)
7-12 (Green)
Half Fare
---------
K-12 (Green)
I went to The Bay Academy I.S. 98 in Brooklyn. I lived 11 blocks away. The rule for the K-6 group is that you need to live at least 1/2 mile away to get a full fare card. The 7-12 is that you have to live 1 mile away to get a full fare card. All other kids can get a 1/2 fare upon request. You can't take the subway with a 1/2 fare card. Apparently 11 blocks isn't 1/2 mile so I always got a 1/2 fare card. Not good for railfanning. One day I went across the bridge behind my school (it crossed over the Belt Parkway) and bought a Single Ride ticket from the MVM. I saw that kids just like me that didn't live far enough were going into the gates 2 at a time on 1 full fare Metrocard. Hmm... unfortunately I couldn't cough up $1.50 for the entire school year (180 days) and had to participate in uh... fare beating. Shh!!! But, this fall I'm attending Brooklyn Tech and I'm definately more than 1 mile away so I can railfan all I want for free... YEAH!!! BTW, Thurston, where'd you get a Night High School MetroCard? Of course only after school or I'll get a summons. You seem much older than a High School Student on Transit Transit. :-)
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections, Student MC horror stories, and confession.
My story was more interesting.
I had a 1/2 fare card because I lived less than 1.5 miles from my school AS THE CROW FLIES. The street grid showed differently, yet the computer didn't care about that. I was probably going to get a new one from the teacher responsible for passes, but the assistant principal interfered.
At that time, the pass for Command (they had separate passes) was only full fare, to make it half fare they would stamp .60 on the card and cross out Full Fare with magic marker.
I knew people had art on their passes and that didn't stop drivers from accepting them, so I did the exact same thing. I blackened out the .60, integrated it with the crossed out full fare and made a nice little design there. I had to do this every month.
Most of the time, the drivers didn't care at all about full and half fare and just let everyone on for free. Sometimes, they were meticulous about that. I rode the bus twice a day, every day from early September 1995 to late June 1996 and I NEVER had to pay a fare.
I once recounted my many stories of subway pass abuse (breaking the rules is morally right when the rules are flawed) and how it was awful always having to wait in line for the agent to do the buzzing. This wasn't a problem with Chambers Street 1/2/3/9, my school station, where there were cops posted at the gate to allow quick entry.
Finally, this May I reported my Metrocard stolen so I could get a brand new one. This way, the last pass I ever have would not be worn from 5 months of use when it came time to add it to my collection.
I forgot to mention that for the last year of passes (1996-97) Command switched to a separate design for it's half fare cards, which is just when I had a full one again. I was lucky that I wasn't born in 1983.
brooklyn tech? you seem to be proud of that. if your just starting it, i suggest you try to get out quickly.
Yeah, and head to Transit Tech!!!
That's the...
running on...
's
school transfer plan.
[Thurston, where'd you get a Night High School ... You seem much older
than a High School Student on Transit Transit. :-)]
I'm soooooo old that I could be you father :^)
The card in question expired in June & was left on one of our buses yesterday AM. About noon when walking thru the yard I found it.
BTW, about noon when 1/2 the fleet is back I only come up with a 1/2 dozen or less MCs.
Mr t
What makes the card different apart from the markings?
The full fare cards can be used on the subway and bus 100% free of charge. The 1/2 fare card can only be used on buses. You dip the car into the box and then deposit coins in the value of $.75 without pennies.
That's the...
running on...
's
explanations.
I wasn't talking about those, it's obvious I know that much. I was talking about the night school card.
In that case, I guess it would be the hours that the cards will work.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
I know, but I want to know what the hours are!
The card says:
Valid Hours
Mon - Thurs - 1:00 PM - 1:00 AM
Sunday 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM
and clearly says "Night High School"
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday in an effort to kill time I bought an 85 cent ticket at 12/13th and rode the train all the way to lindenwold and then back to 15/16 because i knew that one could not exit at the same station. Well I got off at 15/16th and I went to exit and the turnstyle would not accept my ticket. After a few tried I decided to jump it and keep the ticket. What gives here?
If you want to kill some time today, take the BSS to Pattison and walk east a few blocks to see the UP E9's.
For ticket purposes 12/13 and 15/16 are considered the same station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In part 14 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Questions About the Subway I will examine 3rd rail covers. Back in the day all 3rd rail covers wer made of creasoted wood. They lasted a long time and from what I saw worders on the BSL do yesterday, they are able to be stood upon. Recently, many moden transit agencies have used metal (thin Aluminum) covers. These include WAMTA and the SEPTA route 100. i also suspect that they can be troden upon. However within the past 5 years PATCo has replaced most of its wooden covers with plastic ones. I do not know if you can stand on them and the plastic is white and painted orange at turnouts where a flange is attached to the 3rd rail. i was wondering if the NYC subway is converting to a man made material for its 3rd rail covers? Same question goes for the LIAR and SIRT.
(In part 14 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Questions About the Subway)
Wasn't part 14 twenty questions ago?
This is the 14th Pointless Question About the Subway. It is #14 since I started numbering them and it dosen't include responces, pointless questions aboot railfans, observations, questions aboot railroads or satire.
The abandoned LIRR Rockaway Branch still has wooden covers, and where they haven't rotted through they are strong enough to stand on. The metal ones on the LIRR can be stood upon, but they bend.
The wooden covers are strong and have not rotted because they have been treated with creosote which preserves them. The new aluminum and PVC coverboards are lightweight and durable, but not as strong.
-Daniel
I know that every car starting with the Low-V uses a 32V circuit to control the train's 600V functions, but I was wondering how that works.
How do they charge it?
Is there one in each car that's actively used or is only the one in the operator's car used for power? If it dies, can they switch to another car's battery?
Do both cars of a married pair set have batteries? Or just one? Is there a battery in the A cars of the modern multi-car sets? Maybe even the B cars?
The circuit breakers in the cabs, are they connect directly to the 600V system or do they go by way of the 32V circuit?
The static convertor, or for us old school personel, the motor generator, converts 600 volts to a nominal 32 VDC and works in the fashion of the altenator of your car to charge the batteries. All old school single cars and married pair convertor cars, (even numbered cars) and all A cars of the R44 and the R46 fleet have a bettery charging system and storage batteries.
This energy is regulated by internal diodes and electronics or a trickle charger for MG sets to avoid overcharging the batteries.
This low voltage is commutated trainline through the B3 wire, which can backfeed the batteries of cars with B/O chargers. The low voltage supplies various trainline functions such as the electric air brake commands namely the A and R wires, multiple unit door control, as well as propulsion control such as power positions and dynamic setup.
Low voltage can also control local functions, such as lighting on the newer cars, individual door operator power (DC1/2) and individual car propulsion control. Note this differs from trainline control as the master controller (trainline) must have sufficient low voltage at the head of the train for the entire consist to receive the signal to initiate the power sequence (local) by closing contactors and relays routing the 600 volts to the traction equipent.
All low voltage functions are protected by a circuit breaker. This includes the local and trainline functions. For example on the R30s, the control cutout would have been a 50 amp breaker in case an electric portion or propulsion relay had shorted ANYWHERE in the consist. Same with the B2 breaker, which feeds the low voltage to the self lapping units inside the typical SMEE brake valve. The A and R wires are energized from this point to energize ALL the magnet valves controlling the application or release of the air in the straight air pipe. Local breakers would not rate much more than the maximum amperage required for that one car, for example the lighting might be a 5 amp breaker. The large handled circuit breakers in the cabs control 600 volt functions such as the D4 compressor, static convertor heating, and air conditioning. This is a motorman's point of view so to the Train Dude, let the beatings begin!
Not bad for a motorman! Based on schoolcar you are essentially correct but let me make a few corrections and additions.
First, there was a time before the Motor-Generator. Cars like the D types, the standards and the R-1 thru R-9 had no MGs but did have batteries? They were actually charged by a magneto on the WABCO D3F air compressor. If the compressor failed so did the battery, eventually.
Second: The actual battery voltage is 36Volts DC Nominal but the output of the converter is 37.5 volts. The principal is simple. Voltage is the equivalent of pressure. if you are going to push current into a battery, the source has to be of a higher voltage than the storage device into which you are going to push it.
Finally: I've argued with engineers about this for ever and they disagree with me but can't explain where I'm wrong. The trainline battery is a myth. Yeah, it shows up in the schematics but where is it in real life? Take for example, the R-46 before overhaul. If you were around then you'll remember what would happen when you had bad batteries on the head car. Every time the car gapped, you'd lose P-Wire and stop dead. Now, if there were really the B-3 circuit, the train would have picked up battery from the 3 A cars behind. This did not happen and we all know it. I can't remember how many times I (as an RCI) had to have a train operated without carbody lights, fans and even headlights just to get a brake release.
Jeff, I know we've been over this point before a while back but if you want to jump in, I'd love the company.
I'm jumping here late but the trainline B+ does work. However let's look at the line itself as the culprit here. It's a what: 14 or 12 Ga wire? If you're going to supply all that current through 300 or more feet of wire that thin, did you really expect it NOT to act as a resistor? The design concept was concieved when low voltage for a car with inoperative compressors was meant to supply a bare few items. Some low current relays and contactors. Today's equipment requires high current supply because of all the accesores added. Lighting and PA. Electric rather than air operated doors and a multitude of other gadgets like illuminated electronic side signs illuminated end signs etc, etc.
So for the designers of the R-44/46 to have built those cars they way they did was a serious oversight. But it doesn't negate the value of the B+ tranline. Harold and I used to use them all time.
In the yard back in 1987 we would use battery voltage from an R-46 on the track adjacent so we could turn the MG set off. Various reasons like test, repair or even as mundane as we wanted QUIET. That MG set does have a tendency to be annoying after a while. So I would use a pair of aligator clips and a length of 12 Ga wire between the electric portons of 6398 and say 520 or 1100 or 1276.
Boy do I miss those cars.
Partially, for the reason you stated, I contend that it doesn't work. You can't use 4 or 6 ga wire to hook up the batteries to the circuit breaker panel and then expect 12 or 14 gauge teflon coated wire to do the same job from even 150-525 feet away.
To prove this, I actually forced a disabled (lost P-wire) R-46 to operate normally from 2nd Ave to Jamaica Yard using the cable from the 'Sound-Powered' phones to bring B+ to the P-Wire gen. in the head car from the 5th.
BRAVO! I really love innovative thinking, something too many folks here (TA) don't have.
Yeah but you know yourself, all your attaboys mean nothing and you're only as good as your last 'Awe-sh&t'. Speaking of which, are you still on the 'B' and if so how come I didn't see you Wednesday night at the derailment.
Naww, I have a Q job. I only work the D on the weekends. That derailment made me overcrowded but since I don't head up that way it wasn't too bad for me.
Interesting I heard that exact same thought about attaboys and oh s--- when I worked for MRL. I was on the safety committee and tried to get a commendation or my brakeman who spotted a track defect I didn't see. Pity management wouldn't cooperate. Later he got 5 days for "losing "a car when switching. I don't think damage was serious but of course he didn't catch the handbrake so TS, we forget your good work. They're all the same.[the above words were used too].On the B plus wire I always wondered why diesel loco's don't have one, heavy duty. If an engine dies and the batteries are weak you can't restart it. With the most modern loco's with all electronic controls, including air brake, you'll be SOL with a weak battery.
I try to explain that exact concept to each and every employee. When I was an RCI, I had a reputation of being able to move anything that wasn't derailed. It's a plus to know that your bosses know you can handle it. Bad because you never get any help and if someting goes wrong, your the first one they look to blame for being so damn arrogant. I never expect anyone to go beyond the scope of the rule book or the CBA. That is just about how far I can protect them. The same goes for me. I can only go so far - screw up - and be protected. The rest is on my shoulders.
As for the loco question, I'm far from an expert but I know they supply AC to the passenger consist. I suppose each car has a small battery charging circuit for emergency lights etc. However, the size of the battery in a loco and the current needed to turn it over must be huge. The pass. car batteries, I'm sure, are not equal to the task. I suppose it's not considered practical although I'm not sure I totally agree.
The loco's that provide auxiliary power are far outnumbered by those that dont. Only Amtrak and the transit districts have aux. power. Freight loco's, the great majority, are much like electric MU's but no B+ wire. Each one self contained, with air and electric MU connections. In my days with NYCT I recall the diesels had a starter plug if you had a weak battery you could jump start them with a cable. In my BN and MRL days I never saw such a thing, and wonder why when you can be stranded with no help within 100 miles, in places here there's no access, that the freight lines don't have such a setup. Back to the management gripe.. what can you expect from the big shots? They can't see that a few hundred dollar investment can save thousands when needed.
That is cool and for one who always cries about rules and regulations, it goes out the window here. One time I was assigned to move diesels 10 and 11 from Westchester Yard to 207 St. The engine consist was 10 North which was workable with working trainline and Engine Brake (TM) and the 11 second north, which was stripped aka brake pipe rupture. The former superintendant of the work trains at the time ran a 3/4 inch rubber hose from the glad hands of the next working car, a scrap flat headed for SBK to the BP of the ten. I suppose anyone who could get a half an R62 from Union Square to Concourse on ONE truck DESERVES THE POSITION! Like Eric said, the TA soes not use much of innovative thinking these days.
"and for one who always cries about rules and regulations"
I hope that you were not referring to me. Yes, I do believe in the rules and regulations. I also believe that the CBA should be enforced on both sides of the net. However, when there is an emergency situation, when there is a problem, I believe you bottom-line the situation and get it resolved. As a new RCI I one had to selector-cock an entire R-46 consist to get it back to Jamaica Yard. (Same weak battery condition). When I got there (without incident) the car desk supervisor (who ultimately ended up working for me)wanted me disciplined for my reckless act. And in fact, i was summoned to jay St. to write a report on the incident. The RCI chairman was there and asked what I was doing there. I explained it to him. he asked me:
Was anyone hurt? (no)
Was there any equipment damaged? (no)
Was there a big delay in service. (no)
Then he said (with is Irish Brough, "Well screw 'em all then!" He went into the office, came out a few minutes later and told me I could go back to work. Of course that was 18 years ago. Things have tightened up today. In some ways for the better and in some ways for the worse. However, if the R-46s were today as they were then, I'd never pull a stunt like that again.
[For those who never heard of the selector-cock feature, it was only used on the R-46. With it you could cut out the service air brake but maintain the emergency brake feature. In essence, you had dynamic brake down to 5 MPH and then had to dump the train to stop.]
Errr, I don't think the D types use a magneto off the compressor.
AFAIK, they use the same charging system as the R1-9, which I
described earlier in the thread: the negative side of the compressor
motor goes to ground through a tapped power resistor. The total
resistance is about 4 ohms. The battery is connected to an adjustable
tap. This forms a voltage/current divider such that most of the
compressor motor current flows into the B+ and into the battery.
About 5-10 amps is typical. As the battery voltage rises, more
of the current flows through the ballast resistor. If you remove
the battery or open-circuit it, very bad things happen because
the B+ line will rise to double or even triple normal voltage while
the compressor is running.
The battery on SMEE cars is 25 NiCd cells which works out to
about 32 Volts nominal.
The B3 trainline is connected back to B1 via a limiting resistor.
I forget the value but it should be fairly evident on the prints.
The effect of a dead battery in the train would depend on how
it has failed. If it is simply low on charge or open-circuit, then
in theory the trainline should be able to supply enough voltage
to make things work. The equivalent circuit depends on the
position of the car within the train. The end cars are in the
worst shape for receiving a trainline boost.
Now, if the battery has failed by developing a number of shorted
cells, or the car is pulling down an unusually heavy battery
load because of a high-resistance short somewhere, then the
failing car starts to pull down the entire trainline. The limit
resistors prevent too much current from being sucked out of the
good cars, but the load in the bad car will be too much to be
supplied via the trainline.
The B3 wire itself is fairly heavy in the main harness, I dunno,
maybe #4 or even #2. That doesn't add too much resistance to the
circuit, but the electric portion contacts are a tremendous variable
and the contact resistance per mating could be anywhere from a
few miliohms to a few ohms.
The R-44/46 P-wire design was flawed in that it required a lot of
current which had to be supplied via the head-end car, which you
see is the most vulnerable to poor batteries. I don't know why
they didn't use a lower current value. Perhaps they were concerned
about stray currents causing false releases.
"Perhaps they were concerned about stray currents causing false releases."
One of the strangest occurrences involving false releases was when we installed the motorola radios in the r-46s. The FL-85 package was sensative to the RF and when you keyed the mike, most times you got a 20 - 30 PSI BCP reduction from full service. Suppression was added to eliminate this but some cars still gave up 5 PSI.
Turning on the way-back machine, I remember that problem!
It was when they converted from the R-46 specific radios to
the same type of bracket in use on the rest of the B div.
This lead to an unusual RTO bulletin stating that before
keying the mike on the R-46, you had to be stopped with the
brakes applied in full service.
Now, maybe this was urban legend or just plain misinformation,
but the story that was circulating was that the problem was
caused by either an incorrect field change spec or incorrect
execution in the barns, which resulted in the decelostat circuit (
which by this point had been disconnected) getting crossed to
one of the radio bracket wires.
I vaguely remember the bulletin. I more clearly remember the SH*T Storm we started when we found this problem on trains reported for self releasing or poor braking. When the R-46 was first delivered, they had the smallish radio mounted on the bulkhead wall opposite the motorman. The new brackets were installed under the cab window by the vendor as I remember it so if it were a mis-wire, the TA would have had the vendor re-do the job. The problem was a combination of the placement of the new radio bracket (adjacent to the FL85 package wiring) and the increase in the output of the radio. I do remember hanging the large blue electrolytic caps in the terminal strip of the FL85 to keep the trains rolling.
I think EngineBrake covered most of the points in his followup.
Let me take a moment to clear up a common misconception, which
you brushed against in saying
I know that every car starting with the Low-V uses a 32V...
Many people think Low Voltage Multiple Unit control began with
the IRT Lo-V cars, or at about that time. In fact, the very first
multiple unit systems, developed by Frank Sprague in 1897, were
low-voltage, using a 14 volt battery. This design was marketed
both by Westinghouse and General Electric, and used heavily by
the Brooklyn elevated system (which adopted M-U several years before
the conservative Manhattan el system).
The Hi-V system of control was introduced by General Electric in
1901, and was radically different from the Sprague design in that
it used a large number of individual contactors. This system was
successfully sold to what at that point was the Manhattan division
of the IRT, and thus became their standard. The BRT never, except
perhaps for some experimentals, used the Hi-V system. GE subsequently
reverted to low-voltage control, albeit at the higher 32 volt
battery pressure, when it introduced the type PC control in the
early 1910s.
Now, back to your other question on charging. There are 3 fundamental
ways to charge electric railway batteries:
1) By placing the battery at the bottom of a voltage or current
divider. This is usually done by having the negative side of the air
compressor return to ground across a low resistance, and then having
the battery connected across a portion of this resistance via a
relay while the compressor is running. This method is used on nearly
all of the pre-war museum equipment.
2) Using a DC generator driven by a 600VDC motor (the so-called
"M-G" set). The field excitation of the generator is controlled with
a regulating relay, similar to an automotive battery circuit. This
method was used on all of the SMEE cars prior to the R-44, however,
after GOH, all cars use method 3 below with the exception of the
Corona 36s and 33 singles.
3) With a solid state converter, which uses a transistor which chops
the 600VDC at high frequency (10-30 kHz, depending on model),
followed by a step-down transformer, rectifier and filter capacitor.
This method, known as a "static converter" is used on almost
all NYC subway cars today.
Jeff, I think the nominal state of the GE converter is 1,500 Hz although it varies with load.
Yes, of course you're right, judging from the audible noise
the statics emit. I misplaced a decimal point.
P.S. I expected you of all people to answer the R68 Emergency
Position Mod question!
I had meant to get a clarification this AM before answering. I also hoped Alex, Engine Brake or Pelham dave would answer first and get me off the hook. The truth is I'm not sure why the lable is there beause the brake valve feels normal to me (of course, I don't operate trains too often). However, if I were to speculate, the brake valve collar was modified to provide an extra detent or step before the brake handle can be removed. I think this has permitted the emergency position to be shifted by a few degrees.
According to the bulletins, the newer brass collars ensure that the valve will place in emergency before taking the handles out, in part due to a feature of manipulating the handle by lifting it up after entering the emergency position. It does feel like the emergency position is a little closer to handle out then previous, IE when inserting a handle into a charged train. I remember the R68s when new with the NYAB valves that you could go past the emergency position without dumping the train and some with capabilities of bypassing the emergency position alltogether with the topside, a condition which still seems to exist today.
Thanks for clarifying that for us. I wasn't 100% sure.
The way I read the stories, and I could be wrong, or the information I read could be wrong: that Sprague's original system was High-Voltage and he sold the patents to GE. I had a plate from a HV controller cover once that said Sprague-General Electric , in big letters, and then a small stamping: Type M. So I can verify that GE used Sprague's idea by that plate and readings. In the same story I read that when Sprague invented the Low-V system he sold the patents to Westinghouse.[also noticed the BMT BU, Q types had Westinghouse controllers and they were Low-V, a very simple antiquated type but they were almost-trouible free. Simplicity rules!]I could be wrong but that's a likely story. Know anything about the old NY central MU's? The car drawing I have says they had type M control, but I recall the controller being smaller by far than the IRT ones. The later cars I think [1928,etc] had PC controls. Yet they were always MU'ed. Any info there? The 1907 cars converted??
Here's a more detailed history: Sprague invented M-U in 1897.
His original design was most definitely low-voltage...check the
patent drawings. It utilized an approx 14 volt battery system
and had the same familiar switching/series/parallel system of
today. It was automatic acceleration too. His design used an
electrically-operated pilot motor which was advanced under control
of the accelerating relay. However, unlike today's SCM designs,
his pilot motor advanced what was essentially a K controller,
meaning a lot of force needed to turn those segments and problems
with arcing and burnt fingers. This design was used in 1897
on the Chicago South side electrification. I do not know if any
examples survive. I believe GE made the hardware under contract
to Sprague.
By 1898, Westinghouse was making a copycat design. It is possible
that Sprague licensed his patent...I'd have to do some more research.
Of course, Westinghouse, loving anything pneumatic, replaced his
pilot motor, which drew a lot of current, with a piston that was
stroked by the accelerating relay and ratcheted up the drum.
This was known as the Westinghouse "notching head" design. It was
this type of control that Brooklyn specified during its MU electrifiction program which began in 1898. We have 2 examples
of this control group at cars at Branford.
Although the Sprague design was eventually vindicated 50 years later,
both WH and GE abandoned it for a while. There were problems with
the solid K-type drum from arcing, problems with the notching
arrangement. Also, GE had concerns about trainline jumper contact
resistance causing intermittent operation with the low-voltage
battery (a problem we encounter regularly at Branford), problems
with battery charging circuits, and some
customer discomfort with automatic acceleration.
Therefore, GE debuted Type M (for Magnetic) unit switch control
ca 1901. It was a high-voltage, manual acceleration system.
In place of a drum and fingers, it relied on heavy, individual
contactors (unit-switches) to make up the series/parallel circuits
and shunt the grid resistances. These contactors were magnetic
in nature, having beefy coils that require about 100-150 VDC and
1/4A to operate. They are driven from the 600V trainlines through
an oddball arrangement of dropping resistors and placing the coils
in various series/parallel combinations.
Westinghouse countered with the "Turret", also known as type AB
control. It retained the low-voltage (14VDC) battery trainlines,
but went to the unit switch design. Predictably, the unit switches
were electropneumatically operated: a magnet valve admitted air
to a piston which closed a spring-loaded contactor.
Now, at this point, Sprague sued General Electric claiming patent
infringement. GE maintained that their unit-switch design was
substantially different from the original Sprague design. The
court found that Sprague's patent on multiple unit was a controlling
patent on the very idea of M-U, and ruled in favor of Sprague.
GE was forced to license this controlling patent from Sprague.
Because Sprague got screwed by Edison-GE a decade earlier over
his work on the trolley car, he insisted that General Electric
must use his name on any M-U products they sell. Thus, the nameplate
for Type M control reads "Sprague-General Electric Multiple
Unit Control System".
Westinghouse either sub-licensed from GE or cut their own deal
with Sprague. Either way, for whatever reason, they were not
under the same obligation and thus their gear from the era
reads simple "Westinghouse Multiple Control".
I'll see what I have on the NYC cars.
So many thanks. I probably got more of an education from you the last month than in many years previous.
How do they set up the coupler so that the train can be operated from not the first car? Is there a switch to break the electrical connections once the coupler is attached? What about the air line?
That largely depends on the circumstance requiring other than head car operation. Essentually we have two alternate set-ups for other than head car operation. One is called Air & Iron only. The other is called Iron to Iron. Iron to Iron was always considered the move of last resort because it gave you the least control over the train. However, in the real world, where you have 3,00 people on a stalled train, it's the fastest way to get the train moving.
The air and electrical functions are controlled seperately at the couplers. The electric is easily controller by retrieving the electric portion on both cars and locking them back. This is done by pulling a lever on the coupler. it requires quite a bit of force and usually requires a piece of pipe for leverage. On the R-44 or R-46, the critical electrical circuits can be broken by throwing a device called a 'cam switch' in the cab where the isolation is required. This breaks propulsion, door and braking functions but allows you to maintain PA communications. This can be a real god-send in many instances. Of course, there are times where we've actually had to resort to pulling the EPs back and place cardboard between the pins and let them close again to hold the cardboard in place.
The ear is even easier. At each coupler you have two angle cocks. One is for break pipe and one is for straight air. Depending on the circumstance, you can pull either one independently or both (more commonly done). between married pairs, you have both angle cocks plus a third for main reservoir air. Angles between married pairs are rarely used in emergency applications, though. They are primarilly there for use during maintenance.
Keep in mind that these are the views of the division of Car Equipment and I'm sure my friends in RTO will have other views.
My thanks to you for this edition of Fundamental Subway Facts 101.
It's just amazing what you'll lear by just paying attention !
May I bother you for a little more, i.e. types of couplers:
- Van Dorn Link & Pin
- J type
- H2a
- H2c
- Link Bars
- Ohio Brass Hook
- (conventional RxR) Knuckle coupler
Did I miss any ?
Can you provide a "thumb nail" description of each ?
BTW, At Seashore I saw a piece of casted steel that they used to make one coupler compatible with another type (Doug the BMT Man's got the job of switching them on their road engine #300 ... it was obvious that Mr. Middleton, their Yardmaster, knew he wanted to do this. It was just another little bit of RxR getting dirty that we expierenced first hand). Is that typical for the MOW engines, i.e. hauling a work train vs. rescuing a string for dead subway cars ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston. is this supposed to be an exhaustive list of couplers
of all time? Of the NYCT transit system? If the former, then
an accurate accounting could fill a book. You can find examples
of nearly all of the couplers you listed up at Branford.
VanDorn is basically a manual, link-pin design. You place the
link bar into one coupler and insert the pin to hold it in place,
then you nudge up to the next car allowing the bar to enter the
coupler face, insert the pin, and let it drop into the hole.
Sometimes you need to get in there and jostle it by hand, which
caused many an injury during the day.
The knuckle, or "MCB" (for the Master Car Builders Association)
is the standard railroad coupler since, I think, around 1910.
Coupling is made by running the two couplers into each other.
To uncouple, the side latch is retracted either with a lever mounted
on the coupler head or more often a cable or chain so you can
retract it from a safe distance.
Both of these couplers are used with external air hoses and
external electrical jumpers.
The Ohio Brass Thomlinson coupler was very popular with streetcars
and interurbans. The current generation OB couplers on NYCT
are very similar to this ancient design, which uses a hook and
spring latch. Most Thomlinson couplers have air couplings built
in to the face. There were many variants.
The H head was WABCOs first automatic tightlock coupler, ca 1914.
The BRT standards were the first to use it. It is essentially
an MCB knuckle design, however the unlocking dog is operated by
a pneumatic piston. Two air lines are provided on the inside
face and an electric contact portion is underneath, which is normally
covered but automatically uncovers and extends when a coupling
is made.
The H2A heads were used with AMUE brake schedules where the top
tappet valve is Main Reservoir (typ 90 psi) and the lower
Brake Pipe (0-70 psi). The H2C is a modified design for use with
SMEE where the top tappet is Straight Air (0-85 psi) and the
lower tappet is Brake Pipe (0-110 psi). In either case, when
air is supplied via a little pipe to the cutting port of the coupler
(via the cutting valve), this triggers a complicated pneumatic
sequence that seals off the brake pipe (so your side doesn't go
into emergency), retracts the electric portion and then admits
air from either the BP or MR to the uncoupling piston, which retracts
the dog, allowing you to back the consist away. Air also flows
through a third "button" tappet valve to trigger your mate to
retract.
The J head was the IRT's take on the H head. For whatever reason,
they didn't like electric portions, and preferred to stick with
jumpers. Probably because the jumper sockets were already wired
up and they didn't feel like re-wiring when they went from Van Dorns
to Js. They have the air-operated cutting piston, but you need
two cutting keys, one for each car (I'm pretty sure, BigEdIRTMan
could answer this). Although mechanically similar to H heads,
the tappet valves are mounted in different positions and bad things
will happen if you attempt to couple up.
The IRT also used an F head which was a J head with a manual cutting
lever instead of the air piston. The museum Lo-Vs have modified
J heads with the tappets relocated so they can couple to H2 heads.
NYCT work equipment is mixed between MCB and H2 heads. Usually
the type is spray painted in big letters near the coupler. Locomotives always carry coupler adapters to go from whatever
they have to anything else (MCB, H2 or OB's for the R44/46).
R44/46 cars used to carry an OB to H2 adapter in a pocket under
the car, under the big end sign, but they seem to be gone now.
[Thurston, is this supposed to be an exhaustive list of couplers
of all time?]
No, what you discovered is that I don't know very much about the subject. Since I just finished reading "They Moved MIllions" I learned a little & this thread prompted me to try & get a little smarter.
[You can find examples of nearly all of the couplers you listed up at Branford.]
Gee you mean I can learn a lot about this by coming up to Brabford ? Folks out there are going to think this was a set up ! You know that the 3/4 Ton Crew is going to intrupt your work to do a show & tell now!
Thanks for the lesson in Couplers #101 ! Maybe the Train Dude will want to do the next, i.e. course #102
Mr t__:^)
TrainDude is doing "Derailment 102" since last night. B train ooops. Lots of fun in the yard.
As to Van Dorn's every standard car in Baltimore was equipped with them (except our fabled 5800 class semi's, which were MU and had OB Form 5 couplers.)
All non-Van Dorn equipped cars carried a compromise coupler that either fit the drawbar pocket on Witts and PCC's and the 58's carried an adapter that connected a Form 5 to a Van Dorn.
The United, Baltimore Transit and BSM all used (or now use) the same method for coupling cars with Van Dorns.
1. Center the couplers on both cars.
2. Insert the link in the "live" car's coupler and secure with the pin.
3. S-L-O-W-L-Y move the live car until the coupler faces touch.
4. If the heads do not line up, use a long switch iron held by two men under the offending coupler and "boost" it up until the two heads are the same level.
5. Once the live car has moved up tight, drop the pin into the coupler of the other car. If the pin won't drop easily, use switch iron to "persuade" it.
At BSM we've been doing it for 30 years without any lost fingers. A search of URE/BTC accident reports only yealds 5 injuries coupling cars with Van Dorns in the years 1926-1945.
Sorry to admit I can't offer more info. on the J heads. All I can say, and I'll have to clarify that I only worked old IRT stuff on one fantrip and a work train once in a while. I've never heard of an IRT cutting key and the only couplers I ever had to "cut" with were manual , I can tell you that was a tight spring, much like slide retrieval on the H2A or C. They were all unmodified ex-mainline hand me downs, I assumed they had J heads, positive that was stencilled by the number. I wondered what an F head was but guess you answered that, yet again I've never heard of a pneumatic uncoupling on those old cars. But then I wasn't a motorman until 1967. Another post mentions how few accidents they had with Van Dorns, guess [if current speed and volume of freight cars switched was similar in the early days] they take more time hooking up traction cars. On the freight roads it was common, before the present "automatic" knuckle couplers, that the link and pin couplers claimed a lot of brakemen's and swichmen's fingers.
Was there a lever on these coupler heads to unlock them, or did
you use separate cutting irons?
With traction cars, the person moving the consist is right there
where they have a pretty good view of the groundmen. On a freight
road the engineer is dozens of cars up and out of sight, so I
guess that would have contributed to more accidents. Heck, the BMT
kept Van Dorns into the 1950s!
To repeat a earlier post of mine .... Lou from Brooklyn & I were the "ground men" with the "cutting irons" while Jeff "was right there" in the cab of the Lo-V as he broke it away the R-9 recently at Branford.
Mr t__:^)
Reading Thurston's post now has me asking questions. I can't remember using cutting irons, IIRc there was a lever right below the coupler head that we used, felt much like slide retrieval on H2A etc; pretty stiff. But perhaps when this was a more common practice they had cutting irons.[BMT..fakeout..before my time!]To make it easier with more leverage? I wouldn't know one if I saw one. On the Van Dorn's you have a good thought, referring to the coupling practices of passenger traction cars Vs. Freight equipment.. The BMT indeed had them as late as 1969 on the Q's. H&M/PATH until the early 60's. IRT/Man.el until 1956.
Your question seems to be alittle vague, but here goes RTO's POV.
Theoretically, I can operate the train from any cab position that has TO controls simply by charging the train from that position, releasing the brakes and taking power. BEFORE I can do that, I need permission from Control Center and a qualified person (TO, CR, TSS etc)to ride in the frontmost cab and flag for me -- tell me what is ahead -- because I can't see.
Train Dude has done a good job of explaining the coupler connections, so there's no reason to do it again. What he describes are ways to move a train that has suffered from some sort of major problem such as a brake pipe rupture, where it is no longer possible to maintain air pressure trainline.
The signals page here shows a special aspect with three yellows (the third one is the call on) used only for yards. I assume this is set (as opposed to double green or something) if there is already a train in the track and two trains are going to share a track or that there's going to be a whole lot o' couplin' goin' on!
Do long yard tracks have multiple blocks?
Is there third rail in the shop (or barn, I don't know the difference)? What about signals?
Are RR crossings in the yard signalled, or is it a stop and look both ways situation?
The triple-yellow aspect is essentially a call-on that doesn't
require the train to stop and pull the call-on lever. You expect
to find another train between that signal and the next signal or
the bumping block. With that indication the signal is used only
on non-revenue trackage. There is another indication that the
Y/Y/Y aspect can give which is, effectively, proceed with caution
on third route. I seem to recall that back in the day when the
G trains turned back in the middle at Queens Plaza, you'd get
a triple yellow to go from D2 across D4 to D5 track.
Signals in the yard are primarily to protect switches and fouling
clearances. In terms of hitting the next train, that's often the
point, so you're on visual rules. I've never seen crossing gates
in the yard, that would be silly. You must be prepared for the
approach of trains from either direction on any track at any time
and you must wear a reflective safety vest.
There is no third rail in the house. Cars are either pushed in
with another train or a locomotive, or the "bug" (a portable
600 volt jumper that attaches to the main) is used to supply power,
or you fly it in (very naughty).
Pigs, I saw all of this in the Coney Island Yard. So watch here for the next time a tour goes there to see first hand. The one I was on was ERA sponcered, so lots of CY-TA staff was their to answer all our silly questions ... it was a most excelent day.
Mr t__:^)
The Yellow over Yellow over Yellow is a Yard Indication Signal. This is to inform the TO that after passing the signal, he is on Yard trackage and Yard operating rules are now in effect. This aspect is only seen when entering the Yard from the mainline. Once you are in the Yard, you must have your train under control, because it is very possible for another train to be ahead of you on the same track or for a switch to be set against you (not all switches in yards have an associated signal).
In general, all lay-up tracks in the yard are one block long, which goes from the bumping block to the switch at the leaving end of the track. It is possible to store more than one train on some tracks in some yards. There are also some yards, eg Westchester Yard, where the loop track can also be used for storage. Tracks like that will have multiple blocks on them.
Yur original premise is slightly askew as to the call-on question. A signal displaying a Y-Y-Y aspect is not a call-on according to NYCT rule 65M. It is an interlocking signal that indicates "Proceed with caution prepared to stop within vision expecting to find track occupied". A call-on signal PER RULE 65K can be found at any interlocking and is always R-R-Y It indicates "Stop! Operate the automatic stop manual release then proceed with caution ....yada, yada, yada." This data is on Pg #60 of the TA Rules and Regulations.
I only put in the parentheses with the call on light in case someone was reading and wondered how there could be a THIRD light. That third yellow would be the Call on light.
Any railfanners going to be in New York on August 16-17. I only know you guys by E-Mail. Would like to touch base with you, maybe have a drink (soft one for me), and perhaps ride some rails. (Coney Island?)
I would consider it a highlight of my baseball trip.
Also, if anyone wants to meet up for the new WMATA Green Line Stations opening on Saturday, January 13, 2001, post on the board. I'd like to meet up with some people hopefully (despite the possible cold).
I'm willing to do the 2nd annual "Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock & Long" while you're here, which is what I thought you wanted to do. It would start at 6 PM at Jay Street (actually folks could join me at Main Street for some Red Birding on the Flushing line at 4 PM).
If you would rather take the Sea Beach to Coney Island (I can't understand why in the World you would want to do that :-) well OK.
Something is happening at Sheepshead Bay & Coney Island this week-end, but more about that later.
Anyhow, decide what you are most interested in as the "Field Trip" I have in mind needs a little planning, i.e. I'll confirm that a few friends are up for it, plan the route, etc. then anounce it so others can tag along.
Mr t__:^)
Waht a mess! Just turn on your national news and you will be sure to see it. People are chain-linked w/PVC pipe and are blocking center city bus routes 2, 12,17,33 a host of others. The protests are getting violent and the police are taking action. Walking in peace
is one thing, but causing destrucion and laying down in the street,blocking traffic is a bunch of "s**t"
Chuck Greene
As inconvenient and disruptive as it can be, be thankful that we live in a land where it can be done.
OTOH, civil disobedience protesters these days tend be a bunch of misguided, loud-mouthed idiots who don't realize they do more to alienate those who might be understanding or sympathetic to their cause by acting in such inconsiderate ways, and then complain loudly how their "civil rights were violated" because the jail doesn't serve vegetarian meals or have decent bedding. Puhleeze.
These protesters should focus on improving themselves before getting in everyone else's faces about how lousy and rotten we are. (It was quite amusing seeing in the media how many of the World Bank protesters were wearing apparel from the very "oppressors" such as Nike they were supposed to be protesting against.)
Are you in the Washington area? I assume you are because of your handle...
A protester who was disrupting traffic yesterday was asked on the scene by KYW news radio (traffic and transit on the two's) what were the purpose and the reason for the activity. Answers: (1) "To be as disruptive as possible." (2) "Because they don't have the right to meet here."
heypaul jokes about mental illness, but this guy has a serious sanity deficit.
And this thread relates to subways/transit systems...how?
Umm, if you read the message more closely, one line in it is "blocking center city bus routes 2, 12,17,33 a host of others." Maybe this thread is more appropriate to BusTalk than SubTalk, but the effect of protests and/or rioting on transit routes IS a transit-related topic.
Hey, some of those protestors are my good friends. Wesleyan is a really activist school and we sent about 150 people to the WTO protests in DC. I will admit that these protsts lack focus (unlike the WTO protests in DC and Seatle) and they apear to be protesting just for the sake of disrupting stuff. However I can't stand Republicans and if the protesters were to shut down the RNC I'd have no problem. Unfortunitly they have decided to protest everything instead of just protesting the evil republicans. It would have been cool if Philly had won both conventions. With 2 chanches to present a positive image we could have welcomed the Dems. and called out the teamsters to deal with the republicans. BTW If the protestors really wanted to cause a problem they should block the BSL maybe around Lombard-South and Broad St. at the same time.
BTW if you doubt the effectiveness of direct action protest, last year students occupied the admissions building at my school and got the administration to pay the janitors a living wage w/ some benifits.
I'm sure Republicans can't stand you, either.
Did the stations that opened in 1917 have to have its platforms lengthened? I don't see any mentions that they were. If they didn't need to be lengthened, how odd did it look with long platforms at the "new" stations and tiny ones at the original stations? When were the exact dates for the platform lengthening project? Since it was done some time during the 40s to 60s, why did it take over thirty years to finally start to lengthen them? (this question is moot if the 1917 stations had to be lengthened, too.)
Also, at this web site , linked from the IRT page on this site, says that Worth St. was lengthened before it was abandoned. So does that mean that Brooklyn Bridge and Worth St. were right next door to each other for a number of years before someone thought, "Hey, these two stations are three feet apart, let's shut one of them down."
1917-era IRT stations were lengthened circa 1960 – by about 45 feet [on those stations that opened at a length of 480 ft. and then extended to 525’]. If you will notice on many stations from that period (i.e. the Lexington Avenue line north of 51st Street or the Nostrand Avenue line), the extended sections have newer station tile design as manifested by the 1967-opened Grand Street subway station which connected the 6th Avenue line to the Manhattan Bridge. Extended sections of 7th Avenue platforms south of 34th Street had a design not unlike the 57th Street-6th Avenue station which opened in 1968.
I don't know when it was done but the Lex-4th Ave. below Grand Central platforms were extended well before 1960 (except for 18th which was abandoned). You can see the original station and then the extension by the tile work being different but nicely matched. But the same wasn't done on the Bway-7Ave. Times Sq-96th. Farther north up Broadway it was. Take 168 and 181 for example, the portion that isn't in the high arches was an extension, IIRC they were doing 181st in late 40's. I remember my mom telling me they were extending platforms but i was only about 4-7 years old then.
Some of this platform lengthening was only on one side - don't recall if it was northbound or southbound at this point and couldn't find the reference to it to be sure. Funds ran out before the other direction was done and it wasn't until the early '60s that the job was completed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The platforms lengthened on only one side were the local stations on the IRT East Side line (original subway) between Brooklyn Bridge and 14th St. They were lengthened on the downtown side first (I think it was shortly after WWII). The uptown sides (all execept for Worth St., which was closed) were lengthened in the early 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
The IRT uptown local stations above Union Square also were lengthened before the ones south of there, probably because the TA figured few people would be getting off a train that just started its run at Brooklyn Bridge.
You can tell which side was lengthened first by the tile design -- the downtown IRT platforms south of Union Square have a pattern that is similar to (but not the exact same) as the original 1904 design, while the uptown side has that `modern' tilework that debuted with the IND Grant Ave. station on the A line in 1955 and continued through the 57th-6th Ave. stop on 1968. (Then of course, the MTA took over and managed to achieve the impossible and actually come up with an even worse tile design, for the BMT R line's local stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn)
Worse tile design? I'm sorry, there's nothing worse than puke green tile.
OK, let's say it's more of an outrage than the green tile -- those ugly-looking things just went on walls where the IRT platforms were extended; the MTA cinderblock tiles on the BMT went over the original tilework, which could have been restored or recreated (and thankfully is now at a couple of stations).
Upcoming renovations - B'way BMT:
They are going to do 23rd Street and 8th Street over - and in so doing, remove the "refrigerator tile" there. Then they will restore the original Vickers mosaics.
Wayne
Good. In Manhattan that will leave Prince, Rector, a bit of City Hall 28th and Rector still to restore (49th Street doesn't bother me as much as the `fridge tile look does, maybe because it doesn't look as cheap). Fourth Ave. in Brooklyn though, has long way to go. Maybe by 2010 or so, everything will be back to normal.
Yep, the tile at Grant Avenue is sure ughly! I've seen that color in a number of bathrooms in my travels. Even the tile band on the trackside walls is awful - a green so dark it looks black! Typical 1950's/1960's design.
wayne
The dead giveaway is that the 1940's extensions had an IND-style white tile design, and the 1960's extensions on the ptown local stations had that ugly green tile in vogue at the time.
In addition, the 1940’s extensions (on the southbound platforms between Astor Place and Worth Street; on both sides of the 23rd, 28th and 33rd Street stations of the Lexington Avenue line; and on underground platforms in both directions between 103rd and 181st Street on the Broadway-7th Avenue line) had pre-lettered and -numbered tiles (white lettering on black background), the variation of which was exactly the same as on the following IND stations:
- Queens Boulevard line: Sutphin Boulevard, Parsons Boulevard, 169th Street
- Sixth Avenue line: 14th Street, 23rd Street, 34th Street [before remodeling, of course], 42nd Street, 47th-50th St./Rockefeller Center
and probably
- Brooklyn-Queens crosstown: Broadway, Metropolitan Avenue/Grand Street [before remodeling]
Worth Street appears to have been lengthened, if you look at it while going by (its lit up by the construction lights.) It still has a yellow stripe along the platform edge.
It's definitely longer than 18th Street, though I don't think it's as long as the standard 520-foot length of all the IRT mainline stations today.
On the other hand, spending a bunch of money to lengthen a station and then closing it down a few years later sounds about like the MO for the Transit Authority :-)
I doubt if closing it was in the plans when it was lengthened, which from what I've been able to put together from comments would have been in the late 40's about 15 years previous to being closed.
Southbound Worth Street was. I don't believe the northbound platform ever got that treatment, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, at least the southbound platform appears to have been lengthened. And the IND-style tile (same pattern as Canal Street; different color: light blue/yellow) is at the north end of the station, indicating where it was lengthened. Work lights did illuminate the station on July 29. And this enabled me to spot an original shield "W" cartouche on the wall near the south end, buried beneath layers of graffitti.
I'm not sure if the northbound platform was lengthened.
Question: Did this station have gap fillers?
They should reopen it, even if it's only used during business hours.
wayne
Why should they reopen it? It would slow down 6 trains and do nothing else, except waste money.
Question: Did this station have gap fillers?
I believe that the southbound platform at Worth St did indeed have gap fillers. Not sure about the northbound platform.
-- Ed Sachs
So does that mean that Brooklyn Bridge and Worth St. were right next door to each other for a number of years before someone thought, "Hey, these two stations are three feet apart, let's shut one of them down."
Yes and no. Worth Street was north of Brooklyn Bridge, and when BB was lengthened it was not only lengthened but relocated northward and the old southern portion - about three car lengths, IIRC - abandoned. The southern portion was on a curve, complete with gap fillers, and relocating it northward helped reduce dwell time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't they also reposition some platforms so they meshed better with the new cars that the TA was about to order? Supposedly thats why the R12&14s were originally sent to the Flushing-because they wouldn't work on the older portions of the IRT main lines [i.e. those built in 1904].
The problem was with the end doors of the cars at the curved stations, like Union Square and South Ferry. With the end vestibule doors, the High Vs and Low Vs were far more out of alignment with the R-12s and above than the remaining Redbirds are with the R-62s and R-142s.
BTW -- would the door positions on the R-12/14/15s be the same as on the R-62s? If I remember right, the doors on each side of those cars were exactly opposite each other, unlike the R-17s through the R-36s, which have the offset doors based on the cab positions.
I'm not sure if the doors on the R-62s are in exactly the same places as on the R-12s and R-14s, but they are directly opposite each other.
BTW, the gap fillers at the abandoned southern end of Brooklyn Bridge station are still there. You can see them from a passing train if you know where to look.
Or stand at the South end of the uptown express platform and look past the partition wall to your left.
** . . . would the door positions on the R-12/14/15s be the same as on the R-62s?**
Not exactly. Although the layout on the sides is dead center on all the above cars, there is a fundamental difference here. The distance between side doors was 17’ 1” on the R12/14/15 cars (and also on R17-through-36 although those cars had the layout shifted 18-1/8” to the left), whereas on the R62 and R62A cars there is a distance of 15’ 9” between side doors.
So we're talking an extra 16 inches between the end doors and the bulkheads then? Not that it matters now since the cars are gone, but it sounds like they would have been within the limits of being able to use the same moving platforms at SF for both models of cars.
Thanks for the information.
Which (If any) RRs in the United States operate with a center third rail?
-Daniel
None. All third rail operations in the United States use outside mounted third rails. There are two basic types in use: Overrunning and Underrunning. The overrunning type is what NYCT and most third rail operations use. The underrunning or Wilgis-Spraue type is used by Metro North (nee New York Central) and SEPTA's Market-Frankford line (nee PTC/PRT), as well as the Docklands Light Rail line in England.
I misstyped the name of the underrunning third rail, so I better correct myself before the Pigs spelling police comes after me.
The name is Wilgis-Sprague third rail.
"I misstyped the name of the underrunning third rail, so I better correct myself before the Pigs spelling police comes after me."
HA!!! Good one!
Isn't it "Wilgus", as in the guy responsible for GCT?
How the hell am I supposed to come after you if I don't know how to spell it myself.
And there's one thing, I don't correct typos. The difference is often obvious (dropped letters, letters next to each other on a keyboard, etc).
Seems my readings of ancient history told me the Nantasket Beach line of the New Haven RR had a center 3rd rail back around the turn of the century. For obvious reasons it was short lived.
Lionels used center running third rail for years, quite sucessfully :)
Though our old set would periodically gap while going through switches.
Anyone else here remember the old buzzing reverser units, etc?
I remember those reverse units all too well; most of my experience being with American Flyer. The AF ones had a terrible inclination to stick and leave you with a dead loco always in the worst place [Hi Mr. Murphy] So went I went back into AF in l974 I converted all my locos to DC with solid state reverse. Works great. Also compatible with my converted HO power trucks on my el/subway trains in s gage.
Lionel Lines
Third Ave Railway and DC Transit.
TARS and DC Transit didn't technically have 3rd rails, it was a tralley wire in a conduit.
To some extant, you can say that both Airtrain and SkyTrain (in BC) have a center third rail, since the 'reaction rail' is what their linear motors use.
-Hank
Conduit track does not use "trolley wire in a conduit". There are positive and negative rails mounted in the conduit structure that feed power and ground to a "plow" that is mounted on the truck frame and projects down into the conduit and picks up the power. Conduit operated cars never return through the running rails, always through the conduit.
Conduit operations were major in Manhattan, and Washington, DC in the US and London, England.
While we are on the subject of conduit operations, some words on plows, plow carriers and operations.
Washington used a narrow plow carrier mounted on the rear of the number 2 truck frame. On single end cars there was no problem, but double end cars had a wicked operations problem. On lines that stub ended and the cars changed ends, the truck that had the plow carrier was on the rear truck in one direction and on the front truck the other direction. This made for interesting operation of electric switches. Conduit electric switches had the contactor rails mounted 55 feet from the switchpoints,(with a white painted box over the slot to mark the location of the contactor) so with the front truck carrying the plow the car was further than optimal for throwing the switch. Both Capital Traction and Washington Railway and Electric instructed motormen to maintain 1 car length between cars at electic switches and a following car could not operate the switch until the preceeding car had fully cleared.
The narrow plow carrier allowed only about 4 inches of lateral movement. Manhattan operators used plow carriers the width of the truck frame, which allowed lateral movement of the plow within the width of the truck frame, and both New York Railways and Third Avenue had joint trackage in places used by both companies, with each company's conduits separate, with two slots between the running rails. Both sytems used pits to remove and attach plows, which was dirty, dangerous work, with moving cars, 600 volts inches from the pitmen, and heavy plows to manhandle.
London used plow carriers the width of the carbody to allow lateral movement of the plow outside the gauge line of the truck. This allowed cars to drop plows at speed, and to pick up a plow without fully stopping.
Thank you for the education. Your response is very interesting.
in brazil... i spent a couple of hours with a reporter and crew from global tv of brazil...they came over to my apartment to film me and the r9 motorman's compartment... it's been a strange experience for me having some people in the media focus on something i built over 20 years ago...
when they were finished shooting here, they told me that they were going into the city to film a segment with philip coppola, the man who has been documenting the design and decoration of all the subway stations... i had heard a lot about phil, and they asked me if i wanted to come along for a ride... in one of the more spontaneous moves in my life, i did... on the way out of my building, several tenants saw me being led away to a waiting van, and must have concluded that i was again having a psychotic episode...
we went into the city, and i regaled them with stories of disloyal subtalkers who have fought me at every turn, and who have tried to have me declared unfit to post here... the reporter apparently recognized my routine, and told me to spare her my captain queeg shtick...
i did learn that brazilians speak portugese, as whenever i stopped speaking they would roll their eyes and speak in a language that did not sound like spanish...
we met up with phil at their offices, and he had brought 3 of the volumes that he has completed... we went to the times square station, and used an entrance that led to the shuttle track, but which had some of the original tile work outside of fare control... they shot quite a bit of the tile work, and then compared phil's drawings with the tile work... his work is very detailed...
all of their filming will probably be boiled down to a 2 or 2 1/2 minute segment on the news... i don't know when it will appear in brazil, but i am checking with greyhound to see if they have an express schedule from port authority to brazil...
on a very personal note... i haven't been in the times square area, or actually the city, in the late afternoon or evening in many years... while they were filming their interview with phil, i was just taking in the whole scene of the people coming and going, and the whole times square environment... it was very eye opening to do something totally different from my regular routine, and it made me very aware of how limited i have allowed my life to become... there are a lot of interesting things and people in the world beyond my very limited horizon... and it is very easy to lose sight of that message, now that i am back here, punching keys on a keyboard, and thinking that i have something of any importance to say...
[on a very personal note... i haven't been in the times square area, or actually the city, in the late afternoon or evening in many years...]
Hey Paul, you don't have to go out of your apartment to check out the people of Times Square. Just click on the following url and you have a live Times Square webcam which reloads itself about every 15 seconds.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/largeimage_cam1.html
thank jeff for that link... i am going to check out that site and see what other cams they have up...
as you know, there is still a big difference between being there and being able to roam around like a little kid and see what's going on, and seeing a picture of it on the internet...
i heard on my intergalactic cat's whisker radio that a sargeant in a certain brooklyn precinct is trying to have a web cam put in his patrol car so that he work his shift from comfort of his home or a local racetrack... last year, the city hired a private consultant at a cost o $7 million to study whether such an arrangement is feasible... yesterday, after 11 months of exhaustive research, the consultant issued a report stating that he didn't know what to recommend and would require another $12 million to gather more facts...
LOL!
Hey Paul, I put together some links of some of my
favorite webcams on a page I made up at
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html
There are some good cams for railfans including a
tram in Zurich, Switzerland; a busy rail station in
Rapperswil, Switzerland; some trolleys in Poland,
Buses in Dublin, Ireland and Belgrade, Yugoslavia;
(we were still bombing Belgrade when I added the
link last year) and a link to a site with a
number of train webcams. On most you have to reload
the pic yourself every few seconds (cmd+R on
WebTv which you have) which will bring the most
recent shot. I had more links but got rid of some
when they weren't working the way they should.
By
the way Paul, I know you're into Mack Buses. I was
at the Transit Museum at Court & Schermerhorn today
and the bookshop had a book all about the history of
Mack Buses!!!
heypaul, glad to see you meet up with the elusive Mr. Coppola. Supposedly, he is hard to pin down. What did you think of his massive volumes? Aren't they really something?
If you get a copy of this Brazilian TV news show, you have to make copies available so we can here how you were dubbed into Portugese.
BTW, I got a call from Derrick last night. He's getting ready for a vacation in Florida, so he won't be around for a week or so. He mentioned getting together at Junior's or some other diner to do some catching up.
Talk with you later,
Doug aka BMTman
it won't be necessary to dub my remarks into portugese, as i am fluent in portugese as well as most of earth's common languages...
[... i was just taking in the whole scene of the people coming and going, and the whole times square environment ... it was very eye opening to do something totally different from my regular routine ...]
My wife & I have been on LI for 25 years. I was a commuter to Manhattan from here for 11, she lived in mid-town. We both look forward to an opportunity to walk the caverns. I also like the stuff that rolls underground, but she prefers the top side rubber tired versions. The point I think is the same ... you need to come back to the City and remember what you've been missing, and you just don't understand that if you do it every day or it's been too long since the last time you did it.
Mr t__:^)
Voce nao sabia que o os Brasileiros falam Portugues? Se voce nao sabe o que eles falaram, voce nao sabe o que eu estou falando.
Que Pasa?
Si Quero Taco Bell???
"Voce nao sabia que o os Brasileiros falam Portugues? Se voce nao sabe o que eles falaram, voce nao sabe o que eu estou falando."
what the hell is this guy talking about???
You didn't know that Brazilians speak Portugese? Then you don't know what he's saying (which is true).
Congratulations, pretty close to what I said. Is that what Alta Vista translates it as? What I wrote exactly was: "You didn't know Brazilians speak Portuguese? If you couldn't understand what he's was saying, you can't understand what I am saying"
Alta Vista usually does a bad job in translating, that's why I figure it's easier to be fluent in Portuguese, which I am.
Mr. Pigs posted a correct translation - he changed first person to third because they were your words, not his.
Ate a proxima.
I didn't use AltaVista.
Why can't the G turn at QP anymore? The center middle track just past the station is still there and to the naked eye it doesn't look like it interferes with the new connection to Queensbridge. Is there more work that needs to be done? Is there a plan to have the G turn at QP again?
The center track north of Queens Plaze isn't connected to the southbound express track anymore. The track only connects to the northbound express track. This is according to Peter J. Dougherty's book from September 22, 1999. The track is now able to hold 1 600' train for layups. Even if it was connected, it would delay E, F, and R Trains. In order for the G Train to turn, it would have to get a line-up at Queens Plaza. That'll take a few moments. It may delay a R Train behind it in the process. Next it must cross infront of the northbound E and F Trains. The E and F Trains will then have to wait for a line-up to clear after the G crossed in front of it. Next the G Train must cross in front of the southbound E and F Trains. That would delay the southbound E and F Trains as it would have delayed the northbound E and F Trains. Finally, 1 more switch for the G Train to get back to the southbound local track. The G Train will have to delay the R Train if one is on the Interlocking. The R Train will be delayed the same way as the E and F were delayed in both directions. Using the center track (if it still existed) would delay every train that runs through. But, once in a blue moon, the interlocking would be clear of all trains. Only once in a blue moon. The G Train should be terminated at Court Square. Maybe the TA should consider moving platforms in the transfer tunnel.
That's the...
running on...
's
perspective.
They can turn it at Qp on evenings, nights and weekends when there is lighter traffic on those lines like they did before. Especially if they do something like sending the F through 63rd during off-hours, which I hear is a possibility.
Why not spend a few (ok a lot) of millions and construct a loop track after QP? It probably would take 5 years to plan 5 year of enviornmental delays and another 5 to build !!
Wow, what a collossal waste of resources that would be, considering the need for service expansion and the want of new lines, not the construction of a mostly useless spur.
-Hank
It was meant as a joke !!!!
But the only thing that I am cusious about is with the G not going to QP, will there be any ADA concerns? You can't just cross the platform.
How many other stations on the G are ADA-compliant? None.
-Hank
I know that there are none now, but with trains on opposite sides of the platform @ QP transfering is easy for the slow walkers, people with canes or crutchs, etc. With G not going there it might be a hardship and the extra time it takes might mean missing a train
You hold the doors, too, don't you? It's not like there won't be another train. And these folks likely make many other subway trips, most without cross-platform transfers. They can handle it.
-Hank
They can handle it, but think of it this way: A passenger boards at a local station. Where they once had a direct train to their destination on the Crosstown line, they now have to take 3 trains, with one long-assed walk! That walk also discouages people from taking the L to the G from Manhattan. I avoid all long transfers (Times Square-8av, Court Sq, Fulton St), and would also avoid the 6-7 ave/14th and 5-6 ave/42nd transfers if they weren't so damned necessary.
We can handle it! That must be the TA's attitude to everyone in this area (including the Eastern Div. We already have no direct service to anywhere on weekends, and now this? Try getting from Ridgewood to just another part of Queens in a decent amount of time!
The only problem with the G terminating at Court Square is that anyone who needs the local trains on Queens Boulevard has to make 2 trasfers. To the E or F and then to the R. What should be done is the G should crossover to the southbound track after an additional T/O gets on at the south end of the train. When the train arrives at QP, it is quickly turned around. The T/O at the north end goes to the south end of the next G.
Why not run a 2 car shuttle Court Sq-Queens Plaza, using only the Brooklyn Bound local track? The G could turn at Court on the Queens Bound track.
Well, as I've mentioned before, perhaps the G could go past Queens Plaza to 46th St/Broadway, then turn around at the crossover before Northern Blvd. The G wouldn't disrupt the express there.
Of course by that point there will be a new local ("V"?) running on that track, so there may not still be room for the G.
Andrew
I want to know if R142 Bombardier is running on #2 line???
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
hey dave, i don't think it is yet. i've been trying to call E 180th to find out. i will take a ride on the 2 to see if it is in E 180th shead. if it isn't its either running or its at another shop i will keep you posted
I tried to hget it at approx 12:30 at Chambers Street. Two different T/O's said that it was not running!!
Have a nice day !!
I work on the Bronx 2/5 every Monday/Tuesday overnight as a lunch relief. Tjhis week I did see one train running light at 116/Lenox heading downtowb. later I saw two complete trains inside the barn (from a running train). They were on the two tracks closest to the actual E180 Station. I do not have the numbers of any of these trains so I dont know which R142 or R142A I saw.
Do you think they will ever convert Woodhaven Blvd.
to an express stop? The ridership at this station is overwhelming.
74th/Broadway is a very busy station on the 7 but no expresses stop there.
Converting that station is impossible due to buildings blocking the way. Woodhaven Blvd could be converted easily by building a trackway behind the present station's wall and constructing a platform over the space now occupied by the local track.
Turnouts already exist, hinting that conversion was probably though about during construction.
I doubt it. If GOs for essential ROW work cause such upset, just imagine what the work involved in reconfiguring the station would cause. Also, folks further east on the line would go atomic if the existing 5-stop express run were split. When I took the train from 75Av into Manhattan 12 years ago it was bad enough most rush hours because the trains invariably slowed to a crawl just west of 63Dr and lumbered to JH. A lot of times a local or 2 would pass us while we tortoised.
Adding a couple more locals would be a better fix for clearing the platforms, as would better synchronizing the bus schedules to the subway so there wouldn't be as much of a lag between when folks hit the platform and when a train came to get them.
...better synchronizing the bus schedules to the subway...
The railroads can barely do that with suburban and rural bus routes, with the subway and city (or DOT) buses its almost impossible. Also, during the rush hour traffic is so bad buses rarely arrive on time, so even if the trains kept the schedule the buses couldn't. For example, the Q53 and Q11 frequently reach their ultimate terminal off-schedule (either late or early).
I got theese from a very reliable source.
1)R-40 slants will be returning to the westend line
in September,with the R-68a going back to the Q.
Anybody know if its true ,and why?
2)Floor replacemets on the R-32,will cause some
extra train sets to be sent to the Jamacia yard
Does this mean we might see an R-68 on the queens
Blvd express?
Do you think theese will happen ?
Peace from Domingo
Bhurst,
Please tell me the "B" will be slanted again! These ARE the "B" trains. Anyway, they're faster, & better. Cool.
JDL
Unless the "reliable source" is in Operations Planning's car assignment section, it's likely to be wrong.
David
Well, if the R40 and R68 swap cars again it is likely that the Q will be running a longer route or more difficult than that of the B Line's. The reason that they swaped the cars in the first place was to give the 30+ year cars some rest with a shorter easier route on a line that doesn't run 24/7.
That's the...
running on...
's
speculations.
I believe the part about the floor replacement. I was on an R32 with its floor completely cut up -- big gashes the other day. Can't be good for the underfloor.
I'd like to see more of those black floors. They're cool, and give the old cars a little more ooomph.
The Mushy Floor syndrome has apparently spread to at least one R42 pair - that being #4902-4903! The floors there are despicable! Terrible workmanship; all kinds of patches, depressions and seams; and boy is it ever MUSHY! It needs HELP soon! Last seen on the "J", Saturday, July 29, 2000.
wayne
08/02/2000
R-1 #103 which is a designated museum car was unusual because there were axiflow fans in place of the usual paddle ceiling fans. For those too young who haven't seen it, The deck portion of the ceiling became a drop ceiling where the axiflow's were mounted. The usual clerestory vents were replaced with horizontal louvers. The typical R1-9 bare bulbs were the same although the ones running down the middle of the ceiling were almost flush with the ceiling.
Now why was #103 given the "AXIFLOW" treatment? Was it because:
A) Testing axiflow fans for future use starting with the R-15 order.
B) Possible "modernization" rehab of R1-9 cars.
C) What do you think?
Bill "Newkirk"
My answer is D. I don't know. Will be pleased to find out. Did you ever ride 484 [sure that was the one]. Had Bullseye light fixtures a la PCC, twice as many lights per car but still not as bright. Don't know why they did that either but thought I'd mention it to share the idea.
I always thought that R4 #484's lighting scheme looked better than the bare bulb design seen on most pre-war cars. Some of the original BMT Standards had several different and nice-looking light fixtures as well.
While we're on this subject, isn't a little weird that the TA chose R1, R4 and R7 (flourescent lights as the R10 test car) cars with unusual lighting schemes as the ones to preserve, while scrapping the regular R cars?
Well, they DID preserve #3184 and also #6387 with the flourescent light (#8506 too), as well as some IRT cars.
The interior of #484 is VERY nice except the green paint makes it look too dim. A better choice would have been a creme yellow or off-white to reflect more of the reduced light.
I still think it's a sin that they scrapped #1208!
wayne
I suppose they did so to show some variations. There ARE some conventional R1-9 saved..I hope? I read here that 1208 was scrapped. Were any of 800,1000, 1440 saved? Belive they were in museum fleet in 70's.
1000 is still in Coney Island
800, 1440 along with 175 are at Seashore.
175's at Seashore?
I gotta go back then. It must be well hidden because in two visits, I didn't see it!
--Mark
I missed it too when I was at Seashore-- until I was leaving and heading back to my car...
Anyone ever see the R-9 at the State Museum in Albany? I made the mistake of saving it for last the one time I was there. Since the rest of the museum was so good I spent longer than I had anticipated. When I got to the R-9 they made the announcement they were closing an so I only got inside it for about 15 seconds. Although it seemed to be restored nicely it had fiberglass seats and the paint scheme they last had in the 70's.
That's OK - that would be the only example of an R-7a or R-9 car with the 1968 modifications. That was a significant change to the fleet.
As ugly as they were, they should have saved a silver/blue R-7a/R-9 with the pistachio green interior. #1689, the other car (not counting #1575) in that range has the original wicker seats as opposed to the fiberglas ones.
wayne
A lot of people don't like it but I think the Pistachio green was the nicest interior color they had. As for the MTA exteriors, oh well, at least it was clean for a while. Used to be a treat to catch an old IRT car that had the light green interiors back in the 50's. Steinways only I believe.
Unless they've redone the inside since the last time I saw it, 1689 has the two-tone blue interior finish which many of the other R-7s and R-9s had.
I think that's a non-collection car that was once a diner in Texas.
They use it for pahhhts storage.
It's a pahhhts storage cahhhr.:-)
R-9 1689 reposes at the Shoreline Trolley Museum, lovingly restored and operable. It even has some older destination signs which were removed from most roller curtains as the IND was being expanded.
In addition, R-4 484 had an experimental PA system installed. You can still see the mikes above the trigger boxes.
Back in the days of the early IND cars, just about everyone wore hats when out and about. Perhaps they were looking at ways of minimizing the chances of millinery/air impeller conflicts.
I was designing the a project about 2 years ago on the 2ave subway..Also a few day 's ago I was talking to a Transit insider on the topic.. I designed the line's express to go from 125 to 72st followed by 57th and 42nd and Grandst..
But from what he was saying They are now thinking about a SuperExpress Station's as follow's..
>125th
>57th
>42nd
>Grand st
And all local stop's south of this point!
I like the Idea we do need some type of SuperSevice in Manhattan and a idea of that Grand st
to 42nd in about 4 Min's is very cool but like very thing about this new subway it's not final yet!
What do you guy's think on the topic? >>>RRR
Well make sure you have 2 local tracks each way man! Express direct from 57 to 125? The Second Avenue Subway is to relieve crowds not, "There's an express a few blocks from here that doens't stop anywhere here.
That's the...
running on...
's
opposition.
Given the choice, I'd rather have two track lines on 2nd and 10th Avenues than a four track line on 2nd and nothing on 10th. The TA has too many tracks as it is. Unless a whole bunch of people shift from other modes, service would be too infrequent on all lines.
Unless they take my advice and "sell" the BMT Broadway line to the suburbs for a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan, with Metro North merging into from the Express Tracks under Central Park and the LIRR curving into the local tracks from the Penn tubes at Madison Square.
Yep there is a local Which stop's at 125th -106st-86th-72nd-57th st.....
I think Queens Blvd IND Expresses have tighter headways, at least in the period from 7 to 8pm.
I took an E from 34th at around 7pm, wasn't too crowded and there was plenty of seats but I opted for the window. This was an R46 E (they've been popping up lately)but there was nothing blocking the front cab window so I could still see. When we passed the 63rd street connection I could see what looked like new signals being installed on the tunnel tracks. I assume the resignaling is one of the main reasons for the upcoming Queens BLVD G.O.
They will have to do something about those GT's, you hit alot of them on the Queens Blvd and because of that a train has a hard time keeping a steady speed.
Anyway it wasn't too crowded of a trip and I got off and hung around 74th and Roosevelt for about 10 or 15 minutes to see how many other R46 E's were out there.
E's and F's Queens bound came every few minutes, and they weren't too crowded. All the other E's were R32 and F's R46.
I went upstairs to get the number 7 train. Again I am reminded of why I dislike that particular line so much.
Waited about 8 minutes for a 7 (local) which came as an express went by on the middle. It was packed and I couldn't fit in.
Had to wait about 6 more minutes for another Flushing bound 7 train, seeing a guy spit onto the tracks (and perhaps on some unfortunate soul down below).
It was crowded but there was enough room in the first car. As usual it was warm, A/C sucks in the 7 train Redbirds (older Redbirds on the 2 and 5 have better A/C for some reason).
I went over to the front window but a couple was there and lets just say they were getting it on at the front window. They weren't even looking out! I've never seen that before, but this is the 7 train!
They did get off at Junction Blvd so I was able to get the window.
Could see Shea was busy with a Mets game.
And at the end of line I'm treated to the mess called Flushing. Wendy's still closed, Caldor still vacant and not too many people around except for the asian teen gangs that hang out there and the homeless guy who lives in front of the vacant Caldor.
Had to also dodge food and garbage on the ground on the way to the bus stop. Flushing is a mess, no wonder why these businesses are pulling out.
And as to why the 7 is rated number 1 I'll never know, it's service is less frequent than Queens Blvd, the trains are hot, cramped, slow, and packed like sardines.
I know many people like the 7, but to me it is one of my least favorite lines.
I hear ya. I don't like the #7 rustbirds, and "frequent" service depends on whether you get on or off at a local or an express stop. My favorite line would be the (F) because of adequate service, 100% R-46s, and a number of my frequent destinations happen to be along the (F) somehow.
Was on the SIR today and have several questions about it. The R44 OH trains seem to have a rough ride, does this have to do with the gravel railbed? I rode it to Tottenville and then to St George.
Actually SIR is not that slow, it looked like we were going 40mph or more in spots in the southern portion. SIR is a pretty nice little railroad, it's scenic and there are alot of branch tracks.
There seems to be a branch track in particular, somewhere between Atlantic and Tottenville, it branches off to the north onto a vacant site. Was there a factory there at one time?
I like riding the SIR (Staten Island Railway). It's a very scenic railroad, just a shame there's no front window (full width cabs).
Also what is required to become a Staten Island Railway T/O?
They have a rough ride mostly because of flat spots on the wheels, and those are rare. It was probably just the car you were in. All the track is new (<5 years old). Nassau, the only industrial spur still connected, is the site of the former ATT Bell Metals, a metal recovery center, formerly a smelter. The site is now a technology and metal recovery center for Lucent Technologies, which is a subsidiary of ATT.
None of the other industrial spurs are still connected. The last one disconnected was the one for the SI Advance in Grasmere. Since the railroad is embargoed, there's no point to the maintainance of the switches that connect the non-MOW spurs, so they were removed. And with practically no one on the line even remotely needing rail service, it's likely to stay that way.
-Hank
The site is now a technology and metal recovery center for Lucent Technologies, which is a subsidiary of ATT.
Lucent is a former part of AT&T, separated from its parent in the 1996 trivestiture. The only relationship the two have is that Lucent is one of many suppliers of communications technology to AT&T.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is meant by the railroad being "embargoed"? I'm guessing this means that it isn't authorised to carry freight. But it seems like an odd term. And "non-MOW"?
As long as it is run by NYCT, clearly passenger service should be the sole focus. As for the Lucent siding, is it used? Is it going to remain, or will it soon be removed as well?
Embargoed means that there is no way for anything to get on or off the railroad. There's no connection to any other system whatsoever from the Tottenville line.
-Hank
I presume that there is no longer a connection (even vestigal) to the North Shore? There were always tail tracks at St. George, complete with third rail, just like the North Shore was only asleep.
No, the connection is still there, third rail and all, at least as of last December. It's quite visible from the sidewalk above.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's there, but it is blocked just east of St. George. The line is also washed out in the Snug Harbor area, encroached on in West Brighton, and having a bridge built over it at Jersey St.
-Hank
[I presume that there is no longer a connection (even vestigal) to the North Shore? There were always tail tracks at St. George,
complete with third rail, just like the North Shore was only asleep.]
The North Shore is asleep, all right - the Big Sleep. Parts of the right of way have been eroded or washed out. If there were any plans to resume service, which there aren't, it would be an extremely expensive job indeed.
I haven't looked lately, but it seems like the new baseball stadium (SI Yankees) now being constructed would eliminate any thought (not that there is one that exists) of ever having any sort of service or light rail on the North Shore. I live on the North Shore, and often daydream about how, had things worked out differently in the 20's, I could have boarded a train in West Brighton and commuted to lower Manhattan. The ferry is nice, but time consuming. Then again, had there been a subway connection from Brooklyn to SI, how would the boro have changed even back then and would the appeal be the same.
(sort of NIMBY oriented, I admit).
The stadium is built over the tracks, with sufficient clearence for the trains. SIR still uses that section of track as the tail of a wye to turn trains (using track 10 at St. George and the main line as the other legs)
-Hank
I took a peek as the bus pulled onto Richmond Terrace tonight, and could see the tracks clearly passing under/through the structure and was planning on correcting myself, but you beat me to it.
Yeah it felt like the wheels had flat spots and it reminded me of some of the LIRR cars. I noticed that some of the other cars rode smoother but in general the SIR R44 OH's give a rough ride. Wonder why they do and not R44's for use on the subway.
How often do you see R-44SIs floating over to CI Yard getting new wheels? (just a joke, I know they have their own shop in Clifton).
Plus, these cars are always outside (exposed to rain, leaves, rocks on the rails, etc), not sure if that contributes to the flat spots but it seems to be the only real difference.
They haven't floated the cars in years, if they ever did. If a car needs work that can't be done at Clifton (and they can do nearly everything) it goes to CI by truck.
And before they put new wheels on, they true them.
-Hank
Rain can possibly but I wouldn't say commonly contributes to flat spots; leaves, definitely. They can cause a train to slide. As for the ride on SIR being lumpy my guess would be that the ballasted roadbed gives more bounce. It has to be meticulously maintained to be smooth. Have they gone to welded rail yet? Jointed rail is quite bouncy [my memories of the differences when I rode on cabooses.]
I have another question: If the Staten Island Railway only has fare control at St. George, then are all rides between other stations free? Can you go from, say, Nassau to Tottenville for free? Do people regularly take advantage of it?
Is there a reason they couldn't have subway style fare control? I'm guessing the TA figures it wouldn't be worth it.
No fare control at the stations because they would then need to be staffed. Yes, all rides that are not to or from St. George are freebies, and ridership is up because of it.
-Hank
Tompkinsville ridership has gone through the roof because of it, the only thing that keeps everybody from getting on/off there instead of St. George is the close connections with the ferry, and a 30 minute wait if the train/ferry were missed. That is why during the morning rush no trains stop there peak direction, and the afternoon rush no trains stop in either direction.
Not true in either case. Most rush-hour trains skip the stop, and always have. Before the fare was eliminated on-train, there were collectors on the platforms at Grasmere and Tompkinsville during the AM rush. Both stations have just a single stairway exit. Passengers exiting at intermediate stops usually got away with a free ride, since the conductors and trainmen could not determine who was getting off where while they were on the train. All other customers paid when they got off at St. George. Non-rush, only boarding pasengers paid at St. George, all others paid the fare on the train.
There are enough businesses and schools in the area that many of the passengers who got on or off at Tompkinsville have legitimate intrests there.
-Hank
They can use MVMs and iron maidens.
They didn't because the money lost with free rides isn't worth the cost of installing fare controls, modifying many stations so that there would be room for it and securing a few stations accessible from the street through illegal but possible means.
Iron Maidens are legitimate blocks to disabled access. Additionally, bikes are allowed on trains all times except rush hours. There's also the matter of the ROW being mostly accessible, that is, many homes have backyards that open out on to the ROW, with only small fence there.
-Hank
There's also the matter of the ROW being mostly accessible
That's the illegal but possible means I was talking about.
There can be camera, and intercom and buzz gates to communicate with the "remote agent" at St. George who can buzz the person in.
All in all, not worth the money or the effort.
All they need to get around that is one fare inspector to drop aboard once in a while? Don't know if that would work in the NYC area? Tickets could be bought at stores if nothing else [as I found done in some European cities]
But there's no way to do it with Metrocard, unless they decide to make hand-held readers, which I don't see happening.
-Hank
Or you could create a machine to issue a paper ticket with a date and time stamp on it whenever someone swipes his metrocard. Still, would be a lot of trouble to not much purpose.
08/19/2000
[Or you could create a machine to issue a paper ticket with a date and time stamp on it whenever someone swipes his metrocard. Still, would be a lot of trouble to not much purpose.]
That would be a lot of trouble. For the small amount of fares lost to people riding "inter' Staten Island, it wouldn't pay to have all stations fitted for HEET's* as well as other measures.
*HEET-High Entry Exit Turnstile
"Bill Newkirk"
I agree. Both paper ticket proof of payment and secure fare zone systems are too much bother for the money involved.
Sound as if the MTA is ripe for a "CLASS-ACTION-SUIT" for the benifit of the rest of the City to receive equal Intra boro service. Is this the result of a city counsel decision ? We are talking lost revenue and incouraging LAW breaking.
avid
Actually, I think it's seen the other way around.
SI residents have sometimes claimed to be underserved by the transit system. The one familiar example is the lack of a subway connection. They also just generally complain about their treatment by the NYC government, to the point where there was a fairly serious secession movement a few years ago. (One of several, I think.)
Whatever you think about their claims, the city sometimes tries to compensate for the grievances. I believe that's one reason the SI ferry remains free, and my guess is that it's probably one reason why no one will bother with collecting intra-SI fares, even if a cost-effective method is found.
SI residents have sometimes claimed to be underserved by the transit system. The one familiar example is the lack of a subway connection. They also just generally complain about their treatment by the NYC government, to the point where there was a fairly serious secession movement a few years ago. (One of several, I think.)
Whatever you think about their claims, the city sometimes tries to compensate for the grievances. I believe that's one reason the SI ferry remains free, and my guess is that it's probably one reason why no one will bother with collecting intra-SI fares, even if a cost-effective method is found.
No offense intended to any Staten Island residents, but if they really did secede from NYC, they'd be in for a very unpleasant surprise - their residential property tax bills would increase dramatically, as much as 300% in some cases. Manhattan's huge commercial base holds taxes down for residential property elsewhere in the city. As an independent municipality, mostly residential Staten Island would lose that subsidy (for that's exactly what it is).
Try this .
A} Borrow 2 or 3 sets of LIRR M-1s.
B} Install the bus type collection boxes , take cards, tokens or exact fare.
C} Adjust doors to open all at terminals exit only , Last stop all off .
D} This entrance would be under the jaundice eye of the conductor.
E} Perhaps this could be a potential brainstormer topic.
F} Lets squeeze S.I. like a grape
G} or modify a few sets of R/44 with the same setup on the doors and farebox.
H} For NON-RUSH use only.
avid
avid
Now your adding more crew since the SIR is OPTO except rush hours.
In the old days you had 3 men or even 4 men crews on the train for fare collection. The got rid of the Brakeman and Trainman positions.
SIR is not OPTO yet. They use 2-man crews on all except 5-car rush trains (3-man crews). There are still 'old hands' left from the B&O days.
-Hank
The majority of the track is now welded-in-place, that is, it was laid as panel track, and the joints were later welded.
-Hank
While going to Staten Island I got an N train (after changing from a D) at Dekalb. Went it's usual route but before 36th it was announced that due to track work the C.I. bound N will be running on the B line as an express. I didn't see a G.O. for that during the week (only weekend).
So I boarded an R train at 36th where the conductor announced a transfer to the N train at 59th. Did not see any signs up for this, and people were waiting for a Coney Island bound N at 59th which will never come.
Took the R to 86th and got the S79 to S.I.
BTW, is that express run on West End any good? That N was a Hippo (R68).
well from what i heard yesterday the N was not running express on the B line, but as a local. i dont know the point of this, might have something to do with the new signals theyre putting in on the west end line (possible during the weekend go's?). anyway, i saw them doing trackwork at 8th ave on the N line, dont know much about any other place.
I got to experience an express run on the West End once, on a B train when the slant R-40s were still assigned to it. It was OK, nothing spectacular. The Manhattan-bound local track was being rehabilitated between, IIRC, Bay Parkway and 62nd St.
Here is a link to a NY Times article.
Enjoy !!!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/a/AP-Train-Auction.html
Poor 614.......Those fall excursions that Iron Horse used to run up here where fun to experience-met many many railfans that way, hanging out by one of the overpasses. It was neat,too, to hear that whistle if I was running around in town-amazing how you could hear that several miles away over al the traffic....
Those 614 excursions through Middletown to Port Jervis were fun to ride, too, although my old video camera died on one of those trips.
I guess that's the end of the Iron Horse specials in October .....
--Mark
Yeah I do remember the G being able to turn around at QP. I was able to program an R46 and sure enough, it said G Crosstown local, G to Queens plaza. Unfortunately I forgot the code.
I have 2 more signs to report. One is at the 15/16th PATCO station. On the mezzanine leve, between the 2 stairways of the east fare area there is a little room. There is a wooden door and upon the door is a sign labeled "Porter". Am I to assume that there was a porter stationed at this station. I also took a mini fieldtrip to the Spring Garden Station and they have an old SEPTA map that still lists Reading Terminal and Suburban Station.
No. Porter is an archaic euphemism for janitor; it is/was probably a broom/mop closet.
Still, it is anachronistic.
1) I plan to wait with chuchubob on the platform for the 9:58 train from NYC. Should I make a little cardboard sign with SUBTALK on it or are you making one?
2) Should we refer to eashother by real name or screen name.
3) What is the plan?
4) How much do SEPTA day passes cost and how do they work with the zone system?
4) The DayPass costs $5.00 and it is valid for unlimited travel during a single day on any scheduled City Transit Division route and for a one-way trip on any regional rail train.
The DayPass is a valid base fare on all City Transit routes and the City Zone portion of Routes 108, 121, 124, and 125. If a DayPass is presented for fare payment outside the City portion of a route, zone charges apply for each zone traveled beyond the City fare zone.
(copied and pasted from septa.org)
1. [Should I make a little cardboard sign with SUBTALK on it]
Go for it. You will be there before we are.
2. Real names are the way to go.
3. Head over to the SEPTA museum/store at 1234 Market St., and check it out. Buy our passes and plot the course for the day, using our collective ideas and wants. The headways on a weekend will determine somewhat what we do. By doing the museum/store first, we don't have to worry about getting back to Center City before they close. I have printed out your sample plan and will bring it along. I have never been on PATCO before, so I'm interested in doing that. I've been on the BSS and the MFL before, but with non-railfans (it was just transportation to them), so I want to check them out again.
4. As noted by chuckubob: Check www.septa.com.
5. We will *not* be touring Camden, NJ !
A City Struggles to Survive
See you all at the SEPTA Museum/Store at 1234 Market St., Saturday , Aug. 5. 10:10 am.
You'll be able to see pleanty of camden from the nice, cool PATCO train. If we do nothing else I want to:
A) Take the BSL to fern Rock
B) Take MFL to Bridge Pratt
C) Ride ridge Line
I have never done any of those.
Hi Mike:
I'll ride all of those lines with you. On the MFSL we can
grab the railfan window if nobody else is there. At Pratt st. we can be the first ones on the train and definitely grab the railfan window.
Might be nice to stay on to 69th St, and then come back towards center city. The BSL has no raifan window because of the full width
front cab, so it's not as much fun. You are only able to look out the
side windows to really see anything!
Chuck Greene
The BSS that I rode to see the UP E9's last Friday had a railfan window and a seat. There was too much reflection to take photographs or video, but it was fine for sitting and looking out the front through the full width cab.
A side trip on P&W and/or rt 101/102 Media/Sharon Hill trolleys could be considered at 69th St. I didn't save Jersey Mike's original (somewhat presumptuous) proposed itinerary, but I think he included a Sharon Hill trip, and I also thought the itinerary was worthy of consideration.
Trackless trolleys (trolley busses) run on Frankford Ave, so some participants might wish to at least see/photograph them at Bridge/Pratt.
A subway surface trip is a must.
MFSE end to end is appropriate, and is assumed, since Bridge/Pratt and 69th St have already been mentioned by others. The bucolic surface run through Milbourne to 69th is refreshing after leaving the elevated cityscape of West Philly.
Ridge Ave subway continuing to Fern Rock sounds good, too.
With all of this, there should still be plenty of time for PATCO, but timing would have to be right for one way PATCO/one way NJT Atlantic City line to (from) Lindenwold. The NJT line is worthwhile for the Delair Bridge crossing and the approach and entrance to Frankford Junction.
Bob
Whatever we can squeeze in for the day will be fine. I'll go along
with anything you guys want to do. It will be fun to meet some of the "faceless names" of the subtalkers!
Chuck Greene
Last Monday when I was killing time by riding PATCO I was waiting for the turnaround at Lindenwold when I saw the Philly bound NJT train pulling into the station. Well our PATCO train gout out first, but while stopped at Woodcrest it blew by us at like 50 mph. However there is a 30mph PSR going into the "hole" and our train was catching it just as we pulled into the Haddonfield stop. The NJT train had 4 Comet IV coaches and I could see that the LCD signs were updated to the line. We almost cuaght it again out of Haddonfield, but it went off down the Bridge Branch. Very exciting all around.
Last Friday when I got to Lindenwold to take PATCO/BSS to see the UP E9's, an NJT train was in the station, so I went to see it. The flashing sign on the side of the car nearest me said local to Philadelphia. The train then went to Atlantic City.
Bob
In part 15 of JMAPQAtS I was wondering about subway brakes and if they are different from brakes on real trains. I know that the presure on trains is about 80-90 psi. On PATCO trains the pipe pressure is around 150 psi. Do subway trains work on the same negitive pressure reduction system or do they use a positive pressure system like a truck or bus?
There are three types of brake systems in use today. The railroad type you are referring to, the 26 schedule, uses a brake pipe reduction system to apply brakes on all cars of a train, whether or not they have air compressors. In order to supply air that isn't there on these cars, the brake pipe must be FULLY charged, a process which on some very long freights, can take almost seven minutes to accomplish per car. An auxilary reservoir is located on each car. These reservoirs store the air for use in service braking as well as a provision to provide an emergency application. This is the reason the TA rulebook as well as railroad require the train to be charged and applied in emergency before removing the handbrakes. The collision at Church Avenue involving the runaway R9 cars, which employed the ME23 type valve is a good example.
The Second system found here and at PATH is SMEE. All cars have air reservoirs to store main reservoir air from the compressor, whether or not on that compressor is found on that car. Once the brake pipe is charged, on 90 psi on most SMEE and 110 on R44s, the emergency contactors close and the fun begins.
Go back to the brake pipe reduction for a moment here. Because the brake pipe not only charges the train, but controls the service and emergency functions, the auxilary reservoir is now diveded into three sections. Once the train is fully charged, the emergency res, the service portion and the brake pipe portion are all equal. On the TA work train equipment, this is 70 PSI. Once the brake valve handle is moved from the charge position (release) to a service application position, lets say a 10 pound reduction, the auxilary reservior service portion will drop down to 60 PSI. Now there is a ten pound imbalance between the chambers inside the reservoir and a piston slides clear of a port and you will get an application of time and a half of the reduction (25 PSI to the cylinders). Here you can not get another application until the auxilary reservoir has been recharged, by moving the valve to the charge position, thereby releasing the brakes. The emergency air portion will always stay near the brake pipe's maximum charge PSI. YOU GET A ONE SHOT DEAL TO APPLY THE BRAKES. An overreduction is a waste of air; not enough reduction is what is needed to control these type trains.
SMEE on the other hand is variable: the straight air pipe, independant of the brake pipe can be filled or vented without losing control of the train. Air is constantly introduced to the train's main and supply reservoirs regardless of the position of the brake valve. The emergency vent valve ensures that maximum PSI goes to the wheels, regardless of the position of the valve or even a rupture in the straight air pipe. A rapid reduction of air in the brake pipe for both types will result in an emergency brake application.
The third type and perhaps my favorite of operating all three was the P-Wire setup. A current is generated by a p-wire generator and is passed through a variable potentiometer in the brake console and run from the head end of the train, looped through the rear end and back to the front. Any break in the current, whether from low voltage, an undesired uncoupling or or the variation in the console position, will result in the application of the brakes electronically. The M1 cars on the LIRR and Metro North use this setup, the TA retired this setup, which was installed on R44, R46 and SOAC cars ending in 1991.
Well, I attended the Baltimore Maglev presentation last night (Aug. 1). There were about 100 people there. For a mere $3.6 billion ($82M/mile), the Maryland MTA proposes to build a 37-mile elevated (on steel piers) Maglev line between Camden Yards in Baltimore and Union Station in Washington with one stop at BWI Airport. It would run either along I-95, the Balt.Wash. Parkway, or the Amtrak/Penn line. They talked about how there would be 33,000 boardings a day, at $26.00 per one-way ticket and how useful it would be to Maryland, DC and Virginia. To me it sounded, as a 40-mile line in itself, ridiculous. There was also mention of competing systems in other cities, but the emphasis was on its usefulness in Maryland.
When they took questions, for about ½ hour, every comment was a complaint about how ridiculous it was. Some of the complaints were that it was useful to no one who lived in Maryland, since you could take the local train for $5.00 to Washington, that the German government has already spent $2B only to abandon the whole idea for regular steel-rail trains, that the idea of a 40-mile elevated line (!?!) almost exclusively for out-of-town business people is crazy when they can’t even get the regular trains to run on the ground successfully, and that the 90-dB noise level from 50 feet away is hard to stomach.
After it quieted down, a new set of commenters gave what sounded like planned speeches about how great it was, how many jobs it would mean, and how it would give us a leg up on brilliant new technology. I looked at the roster of attendees later, and many were from unions, contractors, and state agencies. I think their plan was to let the “little people” get the complaints out of the way and then act like they were the majority. I especially suspected that when the first “jobs” speaker was applauded by about half (the vested interest half) of the audience.
Finally, I figured the actual (not necessarily sinister) purpose of the line. The competing areas, Pittsburgh, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Los Angeles, Cape Canaveral, Atlanta, and DC/Baltimore are competing for the opportunity to build the first demonstration Maglev project. The purpose of the Maglev is to be a replacement for air travel between big cities. There is probably planning (over the next 100 years) for a series of elevated lines between all the big cities. Some of these demos are also big money losers, like Cape Canaveral, or New Orleans (over Lake Ponchartrain), or Las Vegas (from the Airport to downtown). The DC /Baltimore at least might come close to breaking even and be used by a few people. If it becomes popular, it could be extended to Phila, NYC, Boston, Richmond, Charlotte, etc. replace most air travel between those cities. Of course, the Pittsburgh one could be extended to Philadelphia, Cleveland, NYC, Boston, Washington (but skipping Baltimore, maybe). And the LA one from LAX to Ontario to Riverside could also be extended to San Diego and Santa Barbara.
Apparently, it has already been decided that SOMEONE is going to get this tax money for construction and assorted boondoggles, so MD-MTA figures it might as well be DC/Baltimore. So the purpose of the meeting was to satisfy some FRA requirement that the “public” should be allowed to let off steam, and that the amount of complaining might help the Fed. Railroad Admin. decide which will be constructed with the least hassle.
My final take is that -- leaving technology aside -- if a demonstration system is needed to see how well Maglev will work over the next 100 years, DC/Balto is the best place, because it would get a lot a real world use, almost as much as the Lexington Avenue line between 8 and 9 AM :-). And 50% more than the Light Rail line in Baltimore. While 33,000 (business expense account) boardings equally distributed among all three stations may be optimistic (considering that they expect – get this – all but 120 rides per day to be diversions from cars and only 120 from previous transit riders), the number of people who will ride over Lake Ponchartrain each day is probably closer to 330 and the number who will go from Pittsburgh Airport to Downtown and Monroeville (again only 3 stops probably) is also limited. The reason there is so few stops is that, because it is a demonstration project, the train must be able to run at 240 mph for at least 3 minutes. The Maryland one plans to reach top speed for 6-10 minutes.
Now as to technology, if it is so useful to build elevated lines 30 feet wide for hundreds of miles, why haven’t they done it already?? Why hasn’t Amtrak built an elevated line from Philadelphia to New York and run trains at 120 mph. I think they would be great, but if it has never been feasible before, why would Maglev be feasible. I would think building a fast el train (like the DC Metro) between two big cities using steel rails might be the first thing to attempt. If $2B was already spent in Germany and then they abandoned it, why will we be more successful? Finally, if this is really realistic why haven’t airlines or bus companies tried to do it? (To answer myself, it is because the DoT wants to have Maglev obviate the need for more airports and air traffic control systems, and slow the increase in expressway construction between the big cities.
The good side is: if this works out, I can envision two-“track” elevated structures connecting all big cities, so that anyone going less than 600 miles will take the Maglev train instead of a plane. And people who don’t like planes could go across country by taking enough trains. And people could land in the biggest cities then take a Maglev train to others. Hmm...Sounds like the fast trains in Germany now. People land in Frankfurt, then use their Lufthansa ticket to take a train to Cologne, Nuremburg, Dusseldorf, Stuttgart, Saarbrucken, etc. even though each of those cities has a (relatively small) airport with scheduled service.
Finally, I got a CD-ROM with all their documentation to take home... Cool!
As I said in a previous posting about this total boodoggle of a project: Ain't gonna happen.
Amtrak and CSX own the current railroad ROW's and are not likely to allow their corridors to be be used, dispite the MTA's participation. Mag-Lev could just affect the two railroads approach to MARC service, which CSX would love to see go away forever.
The B-W Parkway is OUT. The Feds won't allow it in their part of the Parkway. If they won't allow widening of the highway because "It would destroy the senic vistas the parkway has." , then they won't allow Mag-Lev.
Why the MTA allowed themseves to be dragged into this boondoggle is purely political.
I realized at the meeting that SOMEONE is going to get approval from the FRA. There isn't one city with an easy-to-accomplish proposal. It's apparently a foregone conclusion that some city is going to get to waste the money, it's just still a tossup as to which one is the winner(?).
The planned ROW is not inside the B-W Pkwy property. Landowners next to the B-W Parkway want Maryland to get it so maybe the land adjacent to it can be sold at high prices. This could be why the developer of the Mills shopping malls (Franklin, Potomac, Sawgrass, Arundel Mills -- which is adjacent to the B-W Pkway--, etc.) is really gung ho about it.They could get a station in their mall, they could sell off some land at a good price (eminent domain may not be available to the MTA).
Note that there is no intention of using the ultra-convenient and direct CSX ROW, probably because CSX sees no reason to have anything to do with it. Using Amtrak's ROW means no private company needs to be consulted. Being next to the Pkwy also means that people with land that became less valuable when I-95 was built and Columbia, MD, became the attractive area to be in suddenly have more valuable land.
Heck, I think just using such an incredibly unproven and power-intensive system with a new fixed elevated ROW incompatible with every other railroad system is similar to the Concorde airplane. But at least the Concorde doesn't have its own fixed ROW. Is the Maglev really necessary? Couldn't they just be a fixed electric rail line with high quality trains like the German ICE trains?
But as I said before, a Maglev demo proeject is a done deal. It just needs to be decided where it going to be built.
Fortunately, I'd imagine that eventually this idea, in whatever city, will die before actual money gets spent. A lot of politicians from somewhere else will enjoy taking credit for killing such a dumb idea.
But this stupid maglev idea will never really die. We'll knock it over and somewhere else is will pop back up. Auggghh! I hope Amtrak has the intelligence to be quietly lobbying against this.
What's truly sad and pathetic about this Maglev BS is that for $3.6 billion we could do a whole lot to improve Amtrak service in important corridors around the country.
$500 million should build us a new line from Old Saybrook to Westerly and shave 25 minutes off of Boston - New York running times.
$500 million should also suffice for removing the worst of the speed restrictions on Amtrak's south end and save another 15 or 20 minutes. If the curves were worked out of the line areound Odenton, BWI, and the B&P tunnels, it could easily be a 20 minute run Baltimore to DC with Acela equipment.
$1 billion would get us a high speed line (110 mph) from Washington to Charlotte. Another $1 billion could electrify this and turn it into a 150 mph plus corridor.
$500 million each could turn either the Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinatti-Indiandapolis, or St. Louis Corridor's into 110 mph lines. It would also enable high speed Turbo service to Buffalo from NYC or rebuild the Vancouver-Seattle-Portland-Eugene Corridor to better standards.
I think you get the drift ... what a boondoggle. An elevated "rail" line creating an eyesore wherever it goes, loud, unpredictable in snowy weather, incompatible with everything else.
Andrew Byler
I was looking at Michael Adler's el maps and have a few questions:
1. What streets did the 9th Ave. El follow south of the end of 9th Ave? Also north of the end of 9th Ave?
2. Same question for the 6th Ave. at the south end.
3. Ditto for the 2nd Ave. El and the 3rd Ave. El south of Chatham Sq.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
WS
1) Nineth Ave El followed Greenwich Street. (In front of 145 Greenwich Street, the old ERA HQ)
3) 2nd Ave El wound up on Water Street after Chatham Sq
3rd Ave El followed Park Row, in front of the IRT substation next to that Federal Correctional Facility (the one that is always under heavy guard)
One slight change -- the Second Ave. el followed St. James Place and then Pearl Street (Water Street south of Fulton wasn't widened until the 1950s), south of Chatham Square, then made the S curve after Hanover Square at Conitines Slip onto Water, and from there to South Ferry.
North of Chatam Square the el had a tight squeeze, since it went under the Manny B on East Broadway to Pike/Allen Street, then went up Allen and First Ave. to 23 St., before shifting west one block fo Second Ave. Definitely an interesting route.
If I'm not mistaken, The 2nd Ave El followed Division Street to go under the Manhattan Bridge, not on East Broadway. An old el rated building still stands at Division and Allen Street (SW side of Allen). The building is curved to clear the el. A door on the third floor lead to the el structure. A forgotten NY item (Mr Walsh - check it out)
Indeed it was interesting. The express stops were more logical, almost the same as Lex; and I've read in several places that the structure could have supported steel equipmwnt. I often wish they'd have kept it till last. IIRC steel H&M cars were tested on it as well as steel IRT cars. Whatever; they're all gone longer than I care to think about.
Were there ever any physical connections between the IRT els and the BMT terminal at Park row?
There never was a connection.
However, at one time, in the early 1900's the terminal structure extended to City Hall Park. I had posed the question previosly,
Was this to be a further extension & possible connection of the two lines to connect to the Manhatttan Bridge?
At its southern end, Ninth Avenue becomes Greenwich Street. The el followed this to its end at Battery Place and then went via Battery Pl. and State St. North, it would continue on Columbus to 110th, and then make a curve over that to 8th Avenue (Frederick Douglass Boulevard) to 155th and on to the Bronx.
Off 6th onto 3rd Street, West Broadway (La Guardia Place used to be part of W B'way), Warren Street and Church Street. Church Street then becomes Trinity Place which merges in with Greenwich. That's where the two els connected.
It turned off Second Avenue onto 23rd to follow 1st which Becomes Allen Street. It then turned onto East Broadway to get to Chatham. The Third merely followed Bowery.
Both els connected at Chatham and could follow either route (in theory, I don't know how it worked in practice). The City Hall branch followed Park Row (when the el was built, it was called Chatham Street, but everyone with first hand memories of that name is dead). The South Ferry Branch followed New Bowery (St. James Place after 1943) Pearl Street, Coenties Slip and Water Street.
One little thing extra. The N/B 6th Av El turned W/B from 6th at 53rd Street and joined the 9th Av El at 9th Av to go N/B to 155th then over to the Bronx (pretty much the way the IND goes with the "D" Train except the "D" goes up 8th and Central Pk West instead of 9th and after 155th Street it goes up the Grand Concourse in the Bronx instead of Jerome which the el used.
Lets celebrate the subtalk anniversity august 5th in a heypaul kind of way ?
Check out the "Coming Events" section ... you will note that the post wasn't made by heypaul since some caps were used. That means that there will be more then one of us there ... seriously if you're not going to Philly this week-end come on by Saturday afternoon and hang with us until dark. I'm coming in from LI, Dave is coming down from Boston, plus there will be some other Brooklyites in attendance too, but no girls poping out of any cake, no champaign or pigs in blankets.
Mr t__:^)
We will all be fighting for handle time on the R9!!
I got permison from the head dispatcher here, I'll be there.
[We will all be fighting for handle time on the R9!!]
NO ... the 3/4 Ton Crew has been assigned Bouncer duty, just so everyone is nice.
Mr t__:^)
i got an e-mail indicating that david cole would not be able to come down to new york city this weekend... since david wanted to ride the cyclone, i now suspect that doug will be suggesting that the group take a 3 or 4 hour tour of the franklin shuttle... he intercepted a highly secret message listening to his tesla coil indicating that the long ago scrapped bmt green hornets will be back in service this saturday from 1:27PM to 2:13PM...
as the gracious host of the first part of our celebration of 5 years of subtalk, i am going to buy donuts and soda for everyone's enjoyment... from what i have read of people's plans, i currently plan to buy 5 donuts... 2 jelly, 1 chocolate, 1 creme, and 1 filled with salami for doug... so, if you can make it saturday, let me know and tell me what type of donut you want...
depending on how much time people spend over here, i have planned to have a continuous screening of key scenes from the honeymooners,abbott & costello, caine mutiny, and the taking of pelham 123... i have also thought up some parlor games... one game would involve the group splitting up into two teams... names of subtalkers not present at the celebration will be put into a hat, we will drawn a name, one side will have to think of good things to say about them while the side i am on will concentrate on making cruel merciless remarks about them... i am really looking forward to this, and i am feveriously
working on some choice words...
please put me in the hat, just be sure you say "Siemens SD-600" and not "Light Rail Rules!" I will be chilling on the West Coast feeling the transcendental thought waves of train dude and Jersey Mike talking about my lack of knowledge of the Franklin shuttle on email!
Abe
"I will be chilling on the West Coast feeling the transcendental thought waves of train dude and Jersey Mike"
Thanks Siemens....but I think you have an over-inflated picture of your importance in the grand scheme of things (and in my life). I was thinking of wallpapering my livingroom. I was thinking of taking my grand-children out for dinner. I was thinking about Riding around Carmel -Kent and bear Mountain on my bike Sunday and spending some quiet time with my wife too. In fact I hadn't given you a thought at all until now. If I were you, I'd wouldn't give me a thought either.
Hey, Train Dude!
Congratulations! You DO have a sense of humor!
Doug aka BMTman
Say something funny and I'll laugh, Douglas. I did not consider the remark (in which I was mentioned) to be funny (nor did I consider the previous one by haypaul, funny but chose to let it pass). Let's end this now, Douglas. I don't appreciate your sense of humor, Avid's sense of humor, Seimen's sense of humor and heypauls sense of humor. I surely don't expect you to appreciate mine. Let's just agree to disagree on that point. If you disagree about the content of one of my (on topic) posts, have at me and I'll do the same. However, as has been pointed out before, the personal attacks (in which I have engaged in too) are destracting and detracting. Let us not escalate them further.
Sounds like a good game plan.
Let's keep it informal though, could we please?
It's Doug not Douglas.
Thanks, Train Dude.
Doug aka BMTman
AS YOU WISH - "A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME".
Why but of course, Steven.
;-)
Have heypaul cue up his CC tape and work the controller and brake valves along with it.:-)
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'll be able to make it down to New York this weekend. I just found out that my friend's place on the Upper West Side is unavailable for me to crash at over the weekend. Also, my computer monitor suddenly died yesterday and I'm still in the process of trying to find a new place to live (the place in Jamaica Plain suddenly became unavailable). Not to mention my insane hope that I may actually be able to afford a trip back home to Chicago within the next few weeks. Needless to say, funds are a bit tight right now, and as much as I'd love to make it, it looks like I'll have to take a rain check.
Thanks for the invite, anyway... Hopefully I'll make it down to NYC before too long.
-- David
Boston, MA
For others who were planning to come in from the North or LI I was planning to meet David at Penn Station/34th (island track for 2/3) at Noon. Would be happy to meet others at that time & place to do some Red Birding to Atlantic Ave, then a Q to Sheepshead Bay.
Give me a reply here or via a private e-mail (by early afternoon today) if you want to meet.
BTW, since I haven't been keeping up with the latest list of what is assigned to what route ... are there still Red Birds on 2 & 3 ?
(I do know that most of them came off the 1/9).
Mr t__:^)
I'll be taking the LIRR, but I'll probably go straight to Flatbush Ave. and take the D (Does the Q run on weekends?) from there.
bob... the q does not run on the weekends... when you get off at sheepshead bay, use the exit at the rear of the station...
Make mine chocolate frosted with sprinkles!
Train Dude ... don't you see what you're missing. A hobby is supose to be fun ... oh that's right it's you job, but then you like what you're doing (something many here are envious of), so what's the matter with a smile or a chuckle once in a while ?
Don't you have to humor your staff with some of the things they want to tell you ? I do, but then I don't too close to them because I realy don't want to know all their business ... makes it harder to supervise them !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I left teaching to go into a very lucerative family business back in the 70s'. I left that business for the NYCT not long after. Trains have been a hobby since as long as I can remember. My father bought me my first Lionel trains @ six months old.
I love what I do. I also have a very furtile sense of humor. I've recently had to give a speech at 'supervisor of the month' ceremony that left some of the mucky-mucks rolling. As I keep saying, i have nothing against humor if someone would say something funny.
To clear the air - I have let my personal dislike for heypaul magnify my lack of appreciation of his strange sense of humor. That's my fault but that's something that comes from beyond this board. I just don't find his brand of humor funny. No problem there, is it? I also don't like Jerry Lewis. I also found those like Avid and Doug, who jumped on the wobbly band-wagon equally unfunny. That's my taste. If heypaul had posted that subway cars should be carpeted with yellow shag, I'd be free to comment, right? Well if he posts something he perceives as comical, I should have the right to do so.
As for the 2nd part of your post - I think you answered your own question. Yes I do - wiyh those who can handle the awkward dynamics of the situation. I have one employee (female) who lives near me. We occassionally carpool. We will share an occassional joke. We may even occassionally have dinner if we work late (Our respective mates know so no titters). However, she also understands that I will still do my job and a friendship not withstanding, I will show no favoritism. Not every employee would be so understanding so I choose my spots very carefully.
Besides, humor is largely always at the expense of one personor one group. Hence, a particularly innocently meant remark can be misconstrued, mis-interpretted or mis-quoted and lead to all sorts of problems in our politically correct work environment. I have seen it happen to often. If anyone doubts me, John Stossel (let's not start the Jonh Stossel thing) did a piece on free speech in the workplace. It was chilling. You should try to get a copy of it and then ask your question.
I'll be sure to print it and pass it through the cab window.
[I've recently had to give a speech at 'supervisor of the month' ceremony that left some of the mucky-mucks rolling. As I keep saying, i have nothing against humor if someone would say something funny.]
So, please educate us on what you said that was so funny that (as you put it) had "the muckity-mucks rolling".
Please do share it with us.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually dougie, it's a bit subtle but it was a story about a ventriloquist who did his act from his faux R-9 cab. His dummy, named douggie loved to sqirm on the ventriloquist's lap and blow the whistle all through the act.
To quote "The Great One": Hardy, Har, Har...
Steven, you have outdone yourself here. I am literally rolling on the floor in my own urine after wetting myself.
You are a comic genius. Why not take your routine on the road to Vegas or someplace. And stay there...
Doug aka BMTman
[... Besides, humor is largely always at the expense of one personor one group. Hence, a particularly innocently meant remark can be misconstrued, mis-interpretted or mis-quoted and lead to all sorts of
problems in our politically correct work environment ...]
Well, I will agree to a point. Those folks who get to a high level position in business all have a since of humor & got a A in charesma 101, see I can't even spell it. I kid a lunch mate here that he needs to take that course if he ever wants to be more then just a manager.
Another couple of points I would like to make: heypaul, if my recallalection is correct, doesn't make jokes at other's expense AND many of us have met him, so some of the jokes are just a little fun between friends, with nothing mean intended.
We all have seen a few who like to throw rocks & play mean jokes at others expense. You won't get any argument from me that there is no place for that here. I said to Douggie this weekend that one of the problems I now have getting the enjoyment that I crave out of this site is wading thru all the fluff to get to the post I want to spend time with, SO every post should be a joke of some kind, but it just wouldn't be the site it is without it being open to such a wide group of folks with very different levels of interest and knowledge.
Mr t__:^)
I'll be there, make mine a pastrami croissant
Peace,
ANDEE
mustard on the pastrami?
lots.....
Boston creme with chocolate frosting.
The 11:06 won't do me diddley squat - no good connection at Jamaica so I will have to take the 9:38 which means I'll have some time to kill and I'll go from Penn.
wayne
OH one more thing - is Rollin' Roaster still in operation? IIRC it was down on Voorhies Avenue but I'm not exactly sure where.
wayne
Wayne, I believe it's still there. I think it's closer to Bedford Ave. though.
Doug aka BMTman
Signing off real soon & will probally go to Atlantic Ave on the LIRR like Bob is doing. Bought my "Fun Pass" yesterday, so I'm all ready !
Mr t__:^)
When did PATH stop service from WTC (hudson terminal) to 33rd St.
I think service like that has only been operated at times of serious service disruption on the subways i.e. during strikes. In around 12 years of Path riding I've never seen it happen...
I mentioned somewhere below on this thread that way back when, The Tubes did have a Hudson Terminal-to-33rd Street route, which must have been discontinued years before PATH took over.
The only references I can find to such a service are from the very
early days of Hudson Terminal. The H&M planned to build a new line
from 33rd St. directly to Hudson Terminal. For a map showing the
proposed route, dated September 8th, 1910, see:
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/3841.jpg
[When did PATH stop service from WTC (hudson terminal) to 33rd St.]
I don't believe they *ever* had any one-train service, except for special service during transit strikes.
...and if I remember right, the TWU raised a big stink when PATH did do it during a strike and made them stop, assuming, I guess, people wouldn't be smart enough to change at Pavoina.
Are PATH 'engineers' TWU, UTU or BLE??
I think its BLE.
It wasn't that "people wouldn't be smart enough to change" - it's that it was doing something specifically intended to reduce the impact of the strike (providing an alternate service). Simply providing the regular service wasn't a problem, as it wasn't a specific action. Adding additional trains would be somewhere in the middle, but probably Ok.
Both my fellow posters are assuming that you ment service from WTC under the Hudson, up the Jersey coast, then under the Hudson again via another tunnel vs. direct from WTC, i.e. no such tracks exist.
Mr t__:^)
then what is the turn off between 9th and 14th Sts. It seems to be a tunnel turning off to the right it is blocked now but it is still lit. Also at the Trade Center Track 1 I belive has a sign about Midtown service.
Two questions asked here:
1- The tunnel between 9th and 14th-- this was for a planned Astor Place IRT connection. This never happened bwecause H & M ran out of money.
2- Sign at WTC. Midtown here refers to the 33rd street lines (JSQ or HOB to 33). From the WTC take the HOB train to Grove Street and change for the 33 train or take the HOB train to Pavonia for the 33 train
HOB-Hobken, JSQ- Journal Square.
Actually I think the "Midtown" sign at WTC is for use on the rare occasions that trains actually run from WTC to 33rd St., such as during subway strikes.
It's used less frequently than "Newark" at 33rd st.
That is for the never-built Astor Pl. line that would have gone to Grand Central. There's a bit on it on the PATH page here.
Actually, it was just for Astor Place (originally as far east as 2nd Ave. but later plans show it as Astor Place only). The Grand Central extension would have continued up 6th Ave. and curved onto 42nd Street with stops at 38th St. (and 6th Ave.), Fifth Ave. (on 42nd St.) and Grand Central. See:
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/3841.jpg
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/5702.jpg
http://www.tmk.com/hm_gallery/5705-2.jpg
Terry,
Thanks bunches!
-Dave
p.s. I can confidently state that Terry is The Man when it comes to the plans and design of the H&M...
I wonder how that would have changed history if that had been done.....It certainly would have made the 6th Ave IND even MORE difficult to build [if not impossible..]...Not to mention probably the non-extension of the Flushing/Corona past Grand Central...
Two questions asked here:
1- The tunnel between 9th and 14th-- this was for a planned Astor Place IRT connection. This never happened bwecause H & M ran out of money.
2- Sign at WTC--Midtown here refers to the 33rd street lines (JSQ or HOB to 33). From the WTC take the HOB train to Grove Street and change for the 33 train or take the HOB train to Pavonia for the 33 train
HOB-Hobken, JSQ- Journal Square.
The 9th Street tunnel was to go over to Astor Place (give or take, the target moved at the whim of the Public Service Commission and the community in the area). The eastbound tunnel exists for about 250 feet from the branch point, with a bunch of electrical equipment now mostly blocking it. The westbound tunnel is just a small indent in the wall. If this had actually been built, it would have been a disaster, as the westbound track from Astor place would have crossed the eastbound track heading uptown to 33rd Street at grade, which would have been a tremendous bottleneck.
Regarding the signage at WTC, it's mostly abandoned/disfunctional, but if you look at the trackside signs at an angle, you can see a lot of interesting things. There were stylized maps of the Newark and Hoboken service, with wavy blue lines for the river. The piece of the sign you're thinking of is the "Midtown Service [Not] Running" sign. This was used to indicate if there was a problem with the 33rd St. line, not direct service to 33rd. Before the concourse-level signs were replaced by the current LED turkey[*] it also had the same Midtown information.
[* Note - the new sign is a complete turkey - I hate to think what they paid for it. For starters, it kept blowing drivers, so part of it was always stuck on in orange or off. Next, it couldn't keep time so the clock display was taken out. And most recently, the side that faces the escalators coming up from below has developed a bunch of bad LED's. But then again, the new PATHVision isn't so great either - within a few months, the monitors are as badly out of focus and misconverged as the system it replaced, and the "advanced graphics" that were promised are now the same static images, but sometimes replaced by an "Internet Explorer has caused a page fault..." or "NT maintenance in progress" message...]
The service I always have wanted to see is direct 33 st-NWK via JSQ..Also, when did PATH start 'regular' service on weekends on the two 33rd St services [as opposed to that HORRIBLE JSQ-33rd St via HOB death march...]??
The weekend daytime "normal" service was phased in in 1998-- first, direct HOB-WTC trains then about 6 months later they started the JSQ-33RD trains. Weeknights and late evenings and overnights they still use the JSQ-HOB-33RD round the world service pattern.
My gripe is that even though it says that both direct services end at 11:00 on weeknights, in reality the JSQ-33RD service ends around 10;30 and the HOB-WTC service ends around 11:45. So coming back from uptown after 10:30 and bound for Grove/JSQ (or worse, Newark) you get screwed but the late night HOB-WTC passengers are living large.
I don't think that was ever run and even if it did, no one would use it unless they didn't have the money for a subway fare and they had the time to make such a roundabout trip. It is alot easier to take the N or R from Cortland to 34th or the A, C, or E from WTC/Chambers to 34th.
You would be guaranteed a seat for exactly 1/2 the trip, even during rush hour. That alone is worth the ride. I often see business people pulling this (during middays), one referred to it [PATH] as "the World Trade - Midtown shuttle." It makes financial sense, save 50 cents each way, that's $1 a day you could give to the "Save the Children" fund, or be greedy and save for an additional $250 a year. Also, the PATH is a clean, modern-looking, reliable, fast, hand-out-apologies-for-unscheduled-service-disruptions-like-those-caused-by-WTC-bomb-threats system (I have one of these). To your average Joe, the subway is a slow, dirty, crowded cramped thing that's never on time, or Going Your Way, and that everyone has to ride on the way home. PATH is a great alternative.
My dad has to report to the federal building (26 Federal Plaza) in the morning, and meet his co-workers at the Manhattan Mall for lunch. What does he do? After getting off the PATH at WTC, walks 1/2 mile to work, reports in, walks the 1/2 mile to the PATH, takes either NWK or HOB to the first transfer point to the JSQ-33RD. He always tries to end the day at a PATH station or the PABT, avoiding the subway like the plague.
There was a Hudson Terminal-to-33rd Street route – during the old days of the H & M way back when. My guess is that such service was discontinued years before PATH took over The Tubes.
I don't know if the H&M ever actually had service this way-although they DID have in their work rules a marker light combination for such a thing.....
Green-Yellow, right?
I've actually forgotten where I've seen it..I don't THINK it is in Carleton's "Hudson & Mahattan Railroad Revisited"...But I could be wrong.....
Whats with all the new signal lights on the west end line? I see workers there installing new signals from 9th ave to coney island.
Jeff,
This was planned since that M train rear-ended a B at Ft. Hamilton Pkwy a few years ago. Since that accident, and the accident near the Willie B., there have been many speed restrictions imposed on some lines. Mostly 30 MPH signs, which no one follows. I believe the distance between signals is being lengthened, but the height is being shortened, for some reason. Can anyone verify this info?
JDL
Switches at Dekalb seem slower since that B train derailed. Instead of fixing the problem the TA decides things need to be even slower. Soon the rats will be able to outrun the trains!
From now on, my handle shall no longer be "Light Rail Rules!" This is because since I am tired of this handle, and since it doesn't seem to get on anyone's nerves anyway, I shall be going with my favorite LRV.
A handle doesn't & should get folks upset. It can be your name if you don't mind everyone in the World knowing it or it can say something about you or be a little tease, i.e can you figure out what it means.
Mine for example is a tease ... as I'm not THAT Mr T, the "t" is from my first vs. last name (I love it when new friends call me Mr Thurston). I work for the system here in NYC, but not the big T (TA), however I have a special place in my hart for that other T (Boston). I'm also not a little guy so the small "t" is the final tease.
So, maybe you ought to think about this LRV handle ... it's too obvious. You don't want folks to be able to size you the first time you put up a post OR maybe that's exactly what you do want ?
Mr t__:^)
BTW, Why the smilie ... there have been times when folks thought my reply was ment in a not so nice way, it wasn't so a smilie lets me enguage in a debate without coming to blows about it.
I go to change it but it says that that email address is "already registered". How do I kill my old Handle of "Light Rail Rules!" and then get my new one?
You send me private email or use the feedback form.
now, now, child.. a lil email to Dave P.
would take care of that.. sans tantrum.
And since when do we call Dave Pirmann
by "just" his last name?? It oughta
be "MR" Pirmann for all he's done.
Hi Im Rob A 22year old railfan ,and happy I found
Subtalk,and find people I can chat with about the
subway system.
Another WebTV guy, huh? Just kidding, welcome aboard! "Watch the closng doors."
well welcome aboard
Welcome Rob:
You came to the right place. There are people on here that are "experts" on the subway system. There is a great mix of railfans, T/O's, and conductors!
Enjoy!
Chuck Greeene
hey welcome aboard... subtalk is a forum open to all interested people... however, i am chairman of the subtalk certification committee... if you complete the following 15 question true & false test, you may qualify to be a "certified subtalker"... if you qualify, you will be issued a medic alert bracelet, which will assist ems workers in directing you to the proper psychiatric hospital in the event you lose your mind...
Answer all questions by writing T or F
1. i never laugh, because i am afraid that i will be punished for enjoying myself ______
2. i heard about subtalk, from reading the daily news and new york times articles about railfans, and i was especially impressed with the accomplishments of subtalker heypaul ____
3. i am in the process of building a motorman's compartment in my house ______
4. whenever i get excited, i write in CAPITALS and use a lot of !!!!!!!! _______
5. i have found that when people don't agree with me, i can win them over by repeating myself at least 10 times ________
6. i make it a point every time i ride the subway to use the franklin shuttle _________
7. i feel that the bombardier r-142 subway cars are the best thing that ever happened to the subway system.. ________
8. when people make mistakes in spelling, i enjoy pointing out their errors _________
9. i firmly believe that " we should do unto others, but make damn sure they don't try to do back unto us" _________
10. in my spare time, i watch reruns of abbott & costello, the three stooges, the caine mutiny, and the taking of pelham 123 ________
11. i frequently have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy _______
12. i can make the sounds of an r9 air compressor and braking systems __________
13. when taking pictures in the subway, i frequently use a flash camera as a train is barreling into a station ________
14. i am currently taking a course in electromagnetism so that i can fully understand the operation of a subway train _________
15. i believe that the person who made up this test is severely disturbed and i am putting his name in my killfile so i will not have to be bothered by his sorry attempts at humor ________
LOL!!!
heypaul....you have definitely outdone yourself here. It appears it is time for you to up your dosage a tad* I gather...
Train Dude will love this one!
Doug aka BMTman
(*Tad has been used with the permission of the 'Tad Users Society' a non-profit organization dedicated to the preservation and expanded usage of the phrase 'Tad').
thanks doug for your appraisal... i agree... as for train dude @#%$ *^)
special request to anyone coming over on saturday...
please be sure to check your chainsaws in the lobby of my apartment building before coming up... this is being asked to avoid any large scale massacres...
Heypaul,
I intend to be there on Saturday. Between you, a math teacher, and me, an actuary, I'm sure we will be able to keep everyone entertained with our knowledge of partial derivatives, cotangents, integrals, etc. in case of a rainout. Please make sure everyone brings their calculators!
Oh, I almost forgot, welcome to Subtalk, Slowbeach Rob!
Yes I will be there too - in spirit.
Siemens SD-600 a.k.a. Light Rail Rules.
P.S. Dave feel free to delete the old "Light rail Rules" hyandle from your database this is my new one :)
Funny you should mention Siemens. Denver's LRVs are model SD-100 cars.
I only know how to do logarithms, provided you supply the proper tables. Everything else is a blur - I can't tell a sine from a sign, a tangent from a triangle. If you asked me what a polynomial was I would probably say it was an Alaskan parrot. And DON'T ask me about word problems - or (even worse) PROOFS!!!
Math - not my strong suit.
wayne
F,F,F,F,F,F,F,T,T,F,F,F,F,T,T
excellent kevin... you get 13 correct, and you qualify...
you will receive in the mail a bracelet saying:
IN THE EVENT THE WEARER BECOMES DERANGED, HE SHOULD BE TRANSPORTED TO A FORGOTTEN NEW YORK CITY HOSPITAL
becomes?
First welcome SlowBeach Rob ...
Second, heypaul you have to stop this, as the laughter is getting me in trouble here.
Mr t__:^)
Welcome aboard !
From JDL
Does anybody have the specific unit numbers for the Phase I, Phase II, and GE? Thanks.
That's the...
running on...
's
request.
Finally got to see MARCs long-awaited and much talked-about double-decker cars this morning and they are something to behold. The train was on the Camden Line leaving the Savage Station being pushed in a push-pull mode. Still waiting to see them on the Penn line, though I know they are out there somewhere.
I saw what appeared to be a full consist of them one evening last week when I was heading back downtown on the Red Line. It must have been between Shady Grove and Rockville. I couldn't tell if they were in revenue service or not.
The MARC bilevel cars are indeed in revenue service. They are all over Camden, Brunswick, and Penn lines.
Chaohwa
08/04/2000
"The MARC bilevel cars are indeed in revenue service. They are all over Camden, Brunswick, and Penn lines."
What about the old "Hertiage Cars" ? Are they still running ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the heritage cars are still running. However, as more bilevel cars are coming, it's getting rarer and rarer to see heritage coaches in the near future.
Chaohwa
I've seen them lurking about Union Station - aren't they the same as the ones that the LIRR has just put into service?
wayne
Same manufacturer, similar design, definitely not the same. LIRR is more of a giant blue-silver brick compared to MARC, with a tapered side (don't know if I'm using the word right, just saw a toothbrush commercial), standard-size end doors with trapdoors, other differences I can't remember from when I saw them in Yonkers 2 years ago.
Living in Baltimore I ride these trains to Washington quite often. The double-deckers run only during rush hours. The best ride is on the 7:10 a.m. express out of Baltimore's Penn Station. After stopping at BWI it's a straight shot to D.C. The ride from the second deck is the smoothest I've ever experienced and as such I highly recommend the trip.
Eric D. Smith
Sometimes you can see bilevels running on middays. When I was on Amtrak #181 today, I saw a bilevel train waiting at Baltimore Penn Station to be train #421 to Washington.
Chaohwa
Are any in Service on the Brunswick line or will be by the end of Oct when I will be in the area???
Right at the peek of the evening rush a smokey fire was reported at the Borough Hall station of the 4 & 5 trains. This was just about 5 pm.
Since my building is right above the entrance, looking out the window at 5:40 the emergency situation appears to be over.
Hopefully, there were no serious injuries and that the fire was not substantial.
I would assume we'll get the full details at the 11th hour.
Actually it WASN'T at Borough Hall station, but either a transformer near the intersection of Fulton and Jay Streets, or some kind of fire down in the Jay Street complex. Service of the 4, 5 and A, C and F trains was suspended for a time.
I went home via four-wheels, so I never found out the details. Guess the 11 O'Clock report will have to suffice.
Doug aka BMTman
When I got to the Broadway-Nassau St. Station at 5:20, they were announcing: No service on the 2,3,4,5,C. F trains terminate at Chambers/WTC.
I got to Houston Street at about 4:50 to get a 1/9 to 34th-Penn. It was apparent right away that something was up because the crowd on the uptown platform was significantly larger than usual. In the 15 minutes or so it took for an uptown 1/9 to arive - about three times the normal headway - I saw no 2 or 3 trains except one uptown 2 that was running light. Usually there would have been at least three expresses roaring past in each direction during that long a time period. The P.A. kept announcing something, but as is all too often the case it was completely inaudible. Finally, a 1 arrived, jammed beyond belief. I somehow wedged myself aboard, into what turned out to be a stiflingly hot car. The trip to Penn took close to 15 minutes, due to the long dwell times at each stop.
Now, as to why a problem in Brooklyn would affect the 1/9, well, I can't quite figure that out.
Since there was no 2 or 3 service to Brooklyn,service probably was turned at South Ferry, at least 2 service would've been.
Therefore, delaying 1/9 service.
I get off work at 4:30pm. I reached the Boro Hall Station 5 minutes later. Usually a 4 is pulling in, but not today. I saw people coming upstairs and a 5 was in the station. Trains were still running to Manhattan at that point. When I walked downstairs, there was smoke at the front end of the Bklyn bound platform. I talked to the conductor and he said that a motorman on a Manhattan bound 3 spotted the fire and reported it to the tower. After a while people started to walk to the 2 and 3 but service knock out of there as well. Then the motorman of the Flatbush 5 train told everyone to leave the station. At this point the smoke started to thicken. I walked to the Jay St station where the A was still running. Took an Rock Pk express to ENY for the L.
Additional notes:
1. People started to scream that they want their money back.
2. Had to return to Downtown Bklyn to pick up my sis. This was at 6:30pm. There was still confusion as all buses were diverted to Livingston St. The street was packed with commuters from Court Street all the way down to Flatbush.
3. The fire happened at the intersection of Fulton and Jay. At that point, the IRT passes over the IND.
3Train#2119Mike
Thanks for the additional update, Mike.
Doug aka BMTman
This is a case where block tickets should be issued. For anyone that did not get a block ticket you should call and complain.
Of course- if Police/Fire rather than Transit closed the station then Transit has to comply. If you went to the Bus or walked to another subway line such as the N/R then you still deserve a block ticket if the second line (or bus) did not let you ride for free.
I'd still call up Transit and ask.
I was at home and enoying my regular time off .
At the same time, a smoke condition was also reported on the downtown 6 just south of 59th St. I was on my way home, in uniform, and everyone in the car I was in expected me to have the answers to their questions. I finally gave up and took an N to Whitehall
A BIE occurred on the N/R at Whitehall, approx. 6:30, while all IRT riders were instructed to take the N/R.
If they only could fix those damn BIE's faster. Why does it take so long for a train to recharge?
There's a penalty time of 17-23 seconds before it will recharge, plus the actual time it takes to charge - about 15-30 secs. the remainder is finding WHY the train went BIE in the first place.
If the BIE was caused by a device that has reset, the re-charging should take less than one minute. Typically, if the train operator activates the deadman, or trips on a signal, and everything reseats properly, there is a 17 second penalty time. Before the penalty time has expired, any attempt to recharge the train will result in venting brake-pipe to atmosphere. After the penalty time has expired, the normal time to charge a smee train is 8-12 seconds. (The pre-overhaul R-46 would charge in under 5 seconds) The greatest problem resulting from BIEs is the inexperience of the crew and the persistant nagging by Control Center. This leads to the operator trying to re-charge too soon and ultimately exhausting all his main reservoir air. Then it takes some serious time to build back the main reseroir air.
Further complicating this situation is the fact that R-44 and R-46 have another problem. When the Main Reservoir air drops below 60 PSI, the tappet valves at both ends of the train will not be able to stay closed. Once they open, all main reservoir air is exhausted (inaudibly) to atmosphere through the couplers. Inthis case the only thing the trainoperator can do is pull the angle cocks closed at both ends of the train and wait for the Main Reservoir air to replenish. Walking to the rear of the train and back takes a significant amount of time, as does the replenishment of the air. This is why BIEs can take so long.
BTW on the pre overhaul R46s, I beat the 5 second recharge time. The last couple of train in service, I had on the F line comprised of an entirely A-car consist, all 1200s up. I remember the extra long relay I took at 179 Street for the southbound trip and having to lock all the extra plug doors. 3 or 3 and a half seconds! I loved the charging magnet valves.
I was waiting for the R-142a at BB from 5:45 to 6:15, (no-show, yet it was only 5L on the way up earlier.) After learning of the problem and realizing that everything was going to SF, I took an N to Cortlandt right behing a train that went BIE, paid another $1.50 after running thru PATH sq to the 1/9 and proceeded to SF. Assessment:
Normal IRT Routes: 1,6,7,9,S
Screwed ones: 2,3,4,5
Trains turning at South Ferry: 1,2,3,4,5,9
Half the 2/3 turned at 42nd, half the 4/5 at Brooklyn Bridge, the rest to Chambers or Fulton to DH around the loop and pick up on the other side (starting at Chambers or Bowling Green). A few "rescue trains" were allowed to stop at Wall Street downtown every 1/2 hour to pick up stranded suits (no crossover). I believe the C/R of one of those trains warned of the curve, since that train was SRO and most passengers were covering their ears while heading around the inner loop.
An oddly long 1/9 gap caused a 3 to run in service through the loop. At least I got in another true railfan window view from Cortlandt to SF (where I sat for approx. 45 minutes watching the chaos). Guess what! The C/R of the 3 stayed in his 4th car position! Must have been weird having no board to point at while going uptown. Also, only the first 4 cars opened at a very crowded SF. I got to see redbirds in Cortlandt and South Ferry outer loop, if only for a short time (and empty).
Most of the local stops on Bway have a 9 car marker. The CR on the 3 should have had a board at almost every stop.
Yes, except the marker and board are positioned for the C/R to be in the fifth car, where he would be if the train had reversed instead of looped.
There's a brief article here (for now, at least). But why is there a picture of the 34th Street IND station in the article?
30 July saw the 100th anniversary of the Central Line, as it was on Monday 30 July 1900 that the CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY was opened to passenger between Shepherd's Bush and Bank. A formal opening by HRH Albert Edward Prince of Wales, had taken place on Wednesday 27 June 1900.
With the current Central Line nearly completly operated from a Control room at Wood Lane and with Automatic Train Operation now in use covering most of the Line, times have changed!
This is something I've been meaning to ask about: is all of the Central line run by ATO from the Wood Lane office now, except for the depots, or are there still sections where the Underground drivers must take over and operate the trains manually?
-Robert King
As at today (Thur 3 Aug) ATO is operative: Gants Hill to Shepherd's Bush in both directions. Train Operators are still required to drive trains manually in all other areas. It is expected the whole Line will be converted by 24 September. In non-ATO areas the Line uses ATP (Automatic Train Protection) whereby Operators are given 'target' speeds by the lineside equipment, which are not necessarily lit signal posts. Wood Lane Control Centre covers the whole Line except movements to/from Hainault Depot which are still under control of the local signal box. It is hoped to remove this box shortly. All movements in Ruislip, White City & Hainault Depots are controlled manually.
Railpace Magazine’s online hotnews page has an item from Amtrak that states that the Republicans’ new platform has reversed the party’s 20-year policy of seeking to dismantle Amtrak. The statement in the platform reads in part: “Republicans support a healthy intercity passenger rail system and, where economically viable, the development of a national high-speed passenger railroad system as an instrument of economic development and enhanced mobility.”
I guess a number of the delegates took the train to Philly.
The next news item, however, presents an article from the Wall Street Journal discussing the Acela service’s poor on time record.
Did any of the television cameras get a look at Senator McCain's face when the convention added this plank to the platform? I would pay to see his face at that time, the little anti-rail skunk.
This is not good news for people in places where rail makes economic sense. These tend to be represented by Democrats. Places where rail does NOT make economic sense -- small, low density states -- are represented by Republicans. They want us to subsidize them with high ticket prices, poor service, and tax dollars diverted to their part of the country.
It's my worst fear of "compassionate conservatism." Let's be compassionate to those who deserve it -- people like us -- and drain "them" to pay for it. Since the Democrats are happy to spend anywhere on anyone as long as they can spend, New York City is defenseless.
GOP better remember "who brought you to the dance"
...or in this case "who brought you to the Convention"
....which I'm pretty sure is AMTRAK itself!
Since when did "intercity rail" mean Amtrak? Killing Amtrak makes sense - killing intercity rail, in some place at least, doesn't.
GOP better remember "who brought you to the dance"
...or in this case "who brought you to the Convention"
....which I'm pretty sure is AMTRAK itself!
I thought the the over 100 killed in Flushing... thread was garbage anyway! How on earth are we going to make fun of death?
That's the...
running on...
's
thank you note.
Visiting GCT yesterday on my lunch hour, I got my first glimpse of an R142. I didn't get on because I had to get back to the west side. What I noticed was complete digital signage, in front, back and sides.
Evidently, the MTA wants to phase out color coded signage (since I'm a big signage buff I think that's unfortunate. I think color coding got started in the 60s with different colors for each line than what there is now.)
Will color coding be retained for "The Map" and for station signage, or will the MTA devise something entirely different? Should they?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah. I'm concerned about that too. First it was the overhauled R44s and R46s, not these new cars. It's a shame to see the color coding compromised (However I kind of doubt they'll drop the system all together. There's still the station signs and the map.)
The thing with those colorless digital signs: Without color, it's a lot harder to idntify the letter or number from accross the platform, especially when there are crowds. For instance, if I'm at Queens Plaza on an F train, I might want to know if that's a G or R accross the platform. With the big color coded signs I can tell in a very brief glimpse (say the one instant the sign isn't blocked by an enormous crowd), so I can then decide whether I want to give up my seat and take the R the rest of the way to work.
In short, the color code allows for quick idntitification of trains with a quick glance.
:) Andrew
>>
In short, the color code allows for quick idntitification of trains with a quick
glance.
<<
Not to mention the advantages for visually impaired or limited English(kid or adult immigrant or native) I think digital signs are cute but basically a mistake--the large colored sign -- the single best feature of Slant 40's as built was GREAT.
However they have to be manually changed, and can frequently be incorrect. Plus, nobody needs to know the origin station.
I assume the digital signs are that sickly yellow that all digital signs have. Someday, technology will advance so those signs can have light up different colors. Then the color designations will be used. In short, it is not that the colors for a line are being phased out, it that they have no way of display the info in the correct color without using ink, and apparently ink (rollsigns) is yesterday's news.
The front signs are red.
The interior signs are red and green.
The side signs are an off-white.
actually they DO have that kind of technology today - it's just more expensive, and they're cheap-o
If they had used the type of LED's that are used on the interior signs, then you could show the routes in red or green, and these are no more expensive then single color. The 110a was like this. I'm totally baffled as to why they would use red only in the front. I hope only these pilot cars are like this.
I like the block letter LCD on the outside, but still, they could have used the red/green LED at least for the route #.
The same exact type of signage is used in the new Grand Central schedule signs, only these are in white. The route names are in red or blue. I'm not sure how they change the color; probably either a filter or colored bulb.
Now wait. If they have red and green, shouldn't they also have purple for the Flushing line? Or are they just going to make that red?
Bipolar LEDs can only show red, green or yellow. If you want purple, you would need to install one blue LED for every bipolar LED in the array.
Full Color is out, just highly expensive.
There are what looks like two strips of full color LED's in the entrance of the new Bar Code arcade in Times Square at the bottom of the escalator on the walls (It looks like all the colors are coming from each bulb rather than separate RGB units, and the colors look to pure to be incandescent flourescent, etc.) They show green, dim blue, orange, peach (orange + the dim blue), magenta, blue-green, a nice sunflower yellow, and an off white (almost cool whitw, but with a touch of warm white-- R+G+the dim blue)
I'm hoping the TA/Kawasaki will use the bipolar with the separate blue for the 143's (this would be cheaper), but it doesn't look like it, if they aren't even using the bipolar for the 142 fronts.
Since the 7 is the only IRT line whose color has blue in it, and purple/magenta is very close to red, (and the 7 doesn't run with any other colored line) it wouldn't make sense to add blue to the IRT cars just for that line. Let's try to get them to use them on the division that has blue and gray lines!
Forget the colors (for now), even though I don't see any problem with red only because the R-32/38 has been dealing with yellow-green for years. Could we at least have a destination sign on the front? Every IRT line (except the 1/9,3) has multiple terminals in the same direction for at least one of their directions (OK, most are middle of line terminals but still), and so do several IND/BMT lines. Perhaps this could go in the bottom of the left window (NJT-Comet IV style).
I beg to differ. If we are meeting on the subway to continue in a given direction, then knowing where a train originated is useful.
As to manual and broken, this is like deciding we should have electronic digital doors instead of physical ones because the repair folks can't be bothered to fix broken doors. NOT!!! (this is not a comment on current maintenance, but a memory of years ago when non operative doors were common on R1/9 on the IND)The issue of false or missing route signage on public transit is mostly discipline--if the train is allowed to begin the run without correct signage the system is broken--and that applies equally to digital signage.
Digital signage is easier and quicker to change and one can be more reasonably expected to change it.
I don't get your thing about origins, if you intend to meet at a particular station, wouldn't you get off and wait for the other party anyway? If not, then you would have to peer into multiple trains anyway, who cares if you peer into a few extra ones.
Now, if there was the technology to replace physical doors with energy fields that blocked egress, it WOULD be a better solution, but there is no such thing yet.
The manually changed thing can be solved by having the roll signs like those on the El in Chicago. It is a colored roll sign with the control in the cab.
The originating station can be confusing to tourists. When I told someone how to get certain places in New York, I warned them that the signs on the trains would display 2 destanations.
Also, an even stupider thing is the sign on the interior of the train. If you see something like this:
Parkchester-E 177 St, Bronx
(6)
Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan
and I wanted to go to Pelham Bay Park, I would know from the outside of the train it was the wrong one. I doubt anyone pays attention to the roll once aboard the train except the T/O or C/R when changing it.
Sorry about my failed attempt to duplicate the roll sign of an R62. The (6) should be to the left of the destanations.
The reason the sign is on the inside is for the T/O or C/R to change it.
In addition, some people in a rush just board the next train, it's not that difficult to have the rollsign show the information to the inside. On the dark pixel LCD signs on the R-44 and 46, the interior sign could have been done without and saved the TA money if not for this.
"WALK THRU TRAIN" and "LISTEN FOR | ANNOUNCEMENT" are the only two useful interior sign settings, except for maybe "LAST STOP." However, many times in a crowded station or after running down the stairs/escalator it's easier to look through the window to the sign on the inside than to check the outside sign.
BTW: Want to see real money saved on digital signs? Check out NJT's Arrow rebuilds. On all the cars, the sign is only on the outside. On the married pair cars, the sign is only on the upper right or lower left corners of the PAIR. So unless you can see both sides at once, or the train is all singles, it appears as if only every other car has a digital sign.
I agree. Often in New York, I look for a color or letter to identify the train if the lines running at the station use the same rolling stock or have a mix. For instance at 34/8 when the 8th Avenue Local comes in, I have one hell of a time figuring out what train it is. The bulkhead sign is impossible to read and one has to wait until the train slows down to figure out which one it is. That would not happen with the older roll sign.
Sometimes, older technology is better than the new. This is one of those times.
A solution to this problem would be to have the colored roll signs controlled from the cab as on the CTA in Chicago or the old signs in DC.
But why do you have to know what train it is when it's still in the tunnel? Are those 30 seconds so important?
A solution to this problem would be to have the colored roll signs controlled from the cab as on the CTA in Chicago or the old signs in DC.
Key word there: OLD signs, same as the OLD signs on the R-44 and R-46. Since these weren't retired, you have to wonder why the signs aren't there anymore. Those kinds of signs would be an example of unworkable hybrids between old and new technology.
Actually the SF MUNI Boeings and 1st order of Bredas have roll sign centrally controlled from the cabs. Sadly the Boeings are notorious for running with contradictory signs--Front wb, side blank, second side different wb route, rear, eb. BUT all that notwithstanding, the issues are still legibilty and accuracy. And the point about origin is if I am expecting you to arrive from a #2 I won't even check a # 3. My style is to set a "first door-second car" type location so you and I will find ourselves most efficiently.
You know who has the worst signage? MARTA. The roll signs up front usually are wrong, so they have resorted to using stickers with the destination printed on them in the front. I've even seen a piece of paper with "Bankhead" written with a marker taped to the front.
The flip dot signs on the side are NEVER right. I've seen those signs say "??????", "ghbjdg2^%56", and "no passengers" on an in service train. Sometimes they'll say a station that is on another line, and not nessarily a terminal staion, either.
We can put a man on the moon, have cars that don't waste gas, telephones small enough to put in your shirt pocket, but WE CAN'T BUILD DOT SIGNS THAT WORK 99 44/100 PERCENT OF THE TIME!!!
Rant mode OFF.
Rail signs don't work, bus signs don't work.
It's enough to make you cry.
What's worse, nobody is trying to make it better.
We get the same junk in Baltimore. The LRV's, at least, seem to have the least amount on non-functionits. The buses are hopeless. We've been treated to reversed characters, signs so dim the sun blocks them out, no signs at all, and a host of screw-ups, stuck signs, and there's no solution in sight. Standing comment among MTA operators is that white cardboard and a broad tip black marker are standard equipment. At least the streetcars had signs that worked and were readable. The down side is that roll signs are only good for about 65 destinations before it gets too bulky to roll properly.
At BSM, our Peter Witt has six sets of signs (front and side) to be able to display every destination for the lines Witts ran on. The PCC has 5 sets.
And I ask, how long anyone would have lested at BTC say fifty plus years ago who tolerated the level of broken signage now common. Not very I wot. That is the problem--not technology. When I was a kid growing up around DC, you rarely saw a DC Transit bus without the correct sign. Occasionally when recently reassigned from a 'foreign' it ran with the classic white blank and a neatly printed cardboard. CTA in Chicago where iI spent summers same story. And both of these systems had distinctive color/special indication of expresses, limiteds, short turns etc. In turn the L had colored lights indicating A or B services so you knew whether to elbow your way to the [;atform edge as the train was arriving. So for that matter did the IC Electric have color indication as to route.
For the most part, the destination signs on Denver's LRVs work OK. I did see an anomaly on the day the Southwest Corridor opened: one car had "18th Street" on its side signs and "Not in Service" on one of its end signs.
As for New York, nothing takes the place of bulkhead route and destination signs. I would have said the same thing about marker lights, had I paid attention to them in the olden days.
These situations are rarely done, they shouldn't be put in just for these rare situations.
The digital signs on the trains should have two lines, not one so you can see the route and destination sign simultaneously. The fact that the one sign alternates is a matter of politics, not technology.
The Philly BSS has light-up destination signs which show source and destination. Never could figure out the point to that.
BTW: Why do the northbound Ridge line trains show 8th-Market/Girard until Girard, then change to Walnnut-Locust/Fern Rock, which is still wrong because it terminates at Olney? And southbound, they always show 8th-Market/Girard, confusing some into thinking it terminates at Girard.
They do this because they obvisouly didn't bother reprogramming the signs after the spur was extened to Olney. It confused me when I rode it as well.
Just to add my opinion I think the digital signs look cold and impersonal; I prefer the printed signs in a big way, but that's just my feeling as a relic from another age.
I thought that the new cars used an LED that is red when the DC power is sent through one way and green when it goes through the other way. I think that Radio Shack sells LEDs that do that. I was puzzled when I saw the 142-A with a red "6".
I guess either they don't use those in the front (just on the inside) or they didn't install a reversing switch. Although I don't think there are any switches for signs in that train, maybe they forgot to program it into the computer.
Yes, I know the letters weren't around when it was closed "temporarily" but it was still given a letter in spirit.
In any case, what route (via streets) did this thing follow and where did it connect to the rest of the Green Line?
The Watertown trolley started at Watertown square, headed off to Newton Corner via Galen St, then went down Tremont St towards Brighton's Oak Square. From Oak Square, the trolley used Washington Street to go to Union Square, Allston. There, it turned right onto Brighton Ave, and took it into town. Brighton Ave joins Comm Ave at the point where Comm Ave turns off to go towards Boston College. Once on Comm Ave, the Watertown line joined the "B" line into Kenmore Square.
Today, the 57 bus runs the same route.
Is the track still visible in the street? Is the wire still up? I can remember seeing both in the late 1960's.
No, the track and wire are gone except for a few car-lengths' stub track that branches off Commonwealth Avenue.
Yes, I saw that a few weeks ago as we were headed out of town. Looks like they left just enough to store a few trains for the rush hour.
Mr t__:^)
To the best of my knowledge the stub is not used for regular put-ins/take-outs or storage. Rather, it's for emergencies only -- i.e. getting a trolley out of the way.
The tracks were finally removed this year as part of a major upgrade of the area. Washington street from Oak Square to Brighton Center was torn up as recently as about two months ago, and the rails were finally removed and carted away. This was done so that cars might have more convenient passage down Washington street.
I don't know when the wires were removed; the have been gone for as long as I've known the area (admittedly not that long . . . .)
saturday will mark the 5th anniversary of this website, www.nycsubway.org...
i'd be interested in hearing david pirmann's recollection of how he came to create this website, and how it developed over the last 5 years... happy moments and the sad ones... visions for the next 5 years...
and then memories of the people who have used the information on this website as well as those of us who post here on subtalk and bustalk... what was your first memory of coming here?... what makes you come back here?
anything you have to say, will be a welcome form of giving thanks to david for having created and maintained this very special place on the web...
Reflections...
Well, since I don't have one when I look in a mirror... :-)
Seriously, I've prowled this site since '96 and joined the SubTalk community in '98. I've learned a lot from it, contributed a tiny bit, made a lot of new friends, rekindled a couple of old friendships with folks I hadn't heard from in eons, joined BERA as a result of the New York Days publicity here (okay, so 629 was my excuse, not the subway cars, but what the heck)... in general, had a great time. And I'm looking forward to lots more. Thanks, Dave!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, since I don't have one when I look in a mirror... :-)
Avoid Slayer, another SubTalker.
i was thinking of transcribing the posts on this topic and putting together a booklet of them to distribute to people who join us on saturday, or send through the mail to anyone who wants it...
if you wouldn't want your post duplicated, e-mail me or make note of it on the post
if this seems like a lousy idea to most people, i won't do it...
I've posted the how it came to be started before. It started out with a couple little things (picture and description of a Nostalgia Train tour and a tour of City Hall Station). As you know the first of these went up on 8/5/1995. Soon, Peter D. gave me the track maps and from there it just sort of snowballed.
San Francisco was our first non-NYC metro area city which went up in July 1996. You can check the what's new for the other stuff including when the new name got phased in.
No matter how hard I try the site is still being mistaken for the official site. I get a few emails a week from people who think they are writing to the MTA. I guess that's the highest form of praise. The second highest is the number of times we've been mentioned in legitimate press (7 times in the Times, that I know of!). That's when you know that the site has transcended from being a hobby to .. well, being something else. I don't know what I'd call it now... I can't even begin to count # of hits or visitors at this point.
-Dave
Could you post some of the e-mails on the site. delete the names of course, but it would be funny to read all the ppl who thought this was the MAT. Are most of the e-mails complaints or requests for information?
About 50/50 complaints/requests. Most of them I just reply to with a form letter and then delete.
-Dave
What I will remember this board for is the reuniting of myself with a high school buddy. The friend is the father of a young contributor known as DaWheelFlange. He signed a post on Memorial Day with his real name. I privately E-mailed him if he was related to the friend in HS since they both had the uncommon last name. He E-mailed me back that not only is he related but its his dad and gave me the dad's E-mail. Since our offices are close to each other we have tentative plans to meet for coffee sometime next week for the first time in about 25 years.
What a wonderful thing it is!
Mr. Pirmann, in creating WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG has
given us all a "gem". And that, itself, is a complete
understatement. The website is, to the majority, a
diamond in a haystack.
It's a place where we can discover that we truly
are not alone; that there ARE other folks in this
great (NY) city who will pay you a cheesburger tuesday
to have the railfan window today.
Some certain folks among us would pay you that very same
cheeseburger PLUS A PICKLE to have the railfan window BACK
on certain trains (::r-62A & r-142's::).
No matter how you sum it up, this website is
our sanctuary from the madness of this crazy little
world we all live in. I can't recall ever finding
a more complete, informatory, know-it-all,
have-it-all, site (yes, even Yahoo leaves much
to be desired) but not www.nycsubway.org-- here
we have it all... and all because of the dedication,
devotion, hard work, and perseverance of one man.
That be Mr. Dave Pirmann!
HAPPY 5TH ANNIVERSARY!!!!
My Thoughts and Spirit,
Sub-Talk is about the most fun I've ever had with anything. My thanks
go out to Dave for all of his efforts. I met Dave at an HBLR opening
some time ago , and was very impressed with his knowledge and computer
know how. I hope this board never goes "out of service".
Chuck Greene
I found this page because i had just discovered the world of online railfanning. I spent most of the time on the Northeast railfan website then hosted by Harris Semiconductor near Scranton. (it is now northeast.railfan.net) Anyway that site then and still does have an amazing links page and i was visiting each link and downloading all the pictures on the site (if any). In this manor I got over 500 megs of railroad photos, but anyway one day I followed a link to the Hoboken terminal NJT page and from there I followed a link to a PATH page. The PATH information was really cool so i went to another path page and i think it was part of the Grand Central section of NYC Subway Resources. After that I only visited for technical and signaling info, but last fall I not only found subtalk, but i also downloaded all the pics in the Line by Line tours section.
BTW what happened to the DeCeasre guy who ran Grand Central?
> BTW what happened to the DeCeasre guy who ran Grand Central?
Beats me. I haven't heard from him in a couple of years.
-Dave
Check out 8th Avenue IND, Queens Boulevard IND, Broadway BMT, 4th Avenue BMT- a whole bunch of new pictures out there for you to enjoy.
wayne
I found this web site about a few weeks after first getting on the internet, about a year ago. I spend probably 80% of all my time on the internet here at nycsubway.org. There is so much information on this site, it rivals any offical or unoffical site. I'm glad I've contributed to some of the material on this site, and also contributing to subtalk. I don't know any railfans where I live, so this is the only place I've got to discuss about the things that interest me the most. Hell, I even changed my major because of this site. I was going to be a mechaincal engineer, then I decided I would rather be a civil engineer, because transportion consturction and planning are what I decided that I would rather do as a career.
Thanks for the website Dave!
[I don't know any railfans where I live, ...]
Eye know one, but I'll let him e-mail you privately if he's a mind to.
So, you're NOT the only person in Atlanta who thinks about NYC subway cars !
Mr t__:^)
I've been coming here since the summer of 1998. I've met a whole bunch of new friends here! I keep coming back for the interesting chatter; the odd piece of information that I looked for; the news; the debate; NOT TO MENTION NYC Subway resources with its treasure trove of photographic and textual information....So many of my nagging questions have been answered here. And every so often a REAL treat comes along - like the photos of the long lost MS that I saw only once as a little boy but still remember vividly to this day!
A great job has been done by all.
Wayne
Some of your stories are priceless, especially the one about the sweltering, crush-loaded F train headed by 1277 in September of 1973. THAT was a gem.
I believe I may be one of the original posters on SubTalk, in its wwwboard incarnation. Dave P. may know, if the wwwboard posts are ever included in the Archives. Subtalk has been a great place to learn new things, make new friends and (hopefully) share my knowledge with the community. I first got on the Web for real in late 1995 and www.kne2soft/nycsubway came soon thereafter. All of us who read and post (and even lurk) should thank Dave for all the hard work that goes into this webstite and this board. It's the beat run site in the rail community and the best BBS on the whole web, and I see a lot that are not even a blip on the web.
Remember that guy who claimed he was on an N train rerouted over the Queensborough Bridge?
Yeah I do remember that. He was so INSISTENT that it really happened.
--Mark
I believe I may be one of the original posters on SubTalk, in its wwwboard incarnation. Dave P. may know, if the wwwboard posts are ever included in the Archives. Subtalk has been a great place to learn new things, make new friends and (hopefully) share my knowledge with the community. I first got on the Web for real in late 1995 and www.kne2soft/nycsubway came soon thereafter. All of us who read and post (and even lurk) should thank Dave for all the hard work that goes into this webstite and this board. It's the best run site in the rail community and the best BBS on the whole web, and I see a lot that are not even a blip on the web.
I was introduced to this website by a coworker in late 1997. He knew I was a New York subway enthusiast and suggested I check it out. Subtalk has enabled me to learn things not found in any books, thanks to the wealth of knowledge being shared here. I've also met a few fellow Subtalkers last fall, and hope to do so again this October.
Kudos to Dave for this website. My writeup on Denver's light rail line is coming along, and will be submitted to Peggy and Dave for review soon.
I'm only an occasional poster, but a regular visitor, and I still am amazed by all of the material and information that exist here. It's a tremendous site. Thanks to Dave and all contributors. Of course, it's the type of site that you're either enthusiastic about, or else you couldn't care less
I first learned about this site in October 1997 from a fellow ERA member, after seeing some black & white thumbnails of subway cars. Soon after that, I stopped by a public library to "surf the web" for the first time. Once I saw the first few pics of R1 IND cars, I was blown away! Within a couple of weeks, I purchased my first internet-accessible PC.
The amount of information stored on this site....."amazing" doesn't even begin to capture the feeling. I visit the "pages by date," "newest images," and the "subtalk" pages just about every day, because you just never know what new info/pics will be added.
The amount of enjoyment this site has given me cannot be measured: for someone that has had a lifelong interest in trains, this site allows me to cultivate that passion. A friend of mine gave me a screensaver/slideshow program this past Christmas, and I have loaded it with 500 trainpics (mostly NYC subway). I've yet to get tired of looking at the various images.....
Happy Anniversary, Dave and nycsubway.org!
with heartfelt thanks and gratitude,
Tony
I had the pleasure of meeting Dave at a Day One on the IRT Tour (late 1994, I *think*). We went on our own field trip afterwards to East NY & Canarsie. He was giving out homemade business cards advertising the site, and I took one, and realized it was the subway site I had already been looking at for many weeks. I let him know how grateful I was for putting this site up, how great I thought the site was, and have been a contributor ever since.
And the rest, as they say, is history....
--Mark
I got the Internet at work in December 1998, but I don't remember how I found this site. I probably entered something like 'nyc subway' into the Dogpile search engine they showed me, and here I am today.
It's certainly reassuring to see that I am not the only person in the world who notices all the various facets of the subway. It's always fun to see Subtalkers clash over best express run, fastest and slowest cars, best elevated line, how to fix the system, 'create' new lines, recount old horror and adventure stories, etc., etc. Now if I have a funny, unusual or frustrating experience involving our transit system, I know what to do: head right to the board!
A bonus is seeing all those beautifully preserved and scanned photos of rolling stock over the years. I never knew certain models ran on certain lines, like the R10s on the 'B' or the 42s on the 'KK'. Seeing those full color pictures of the 1-9s in their glorious dull black, I can almost hear their unique groans and feel them shake as they idol in a station.
My brother-in-law, who's a Tech Seargant in the Air Force, was recently stationed in Turkey. They gave him the Internet, and in his spare time, he somehow found this site. Having been away from New York (except for leave) since he entered the service eighteen years ago, he got a kick out of seeing pictures of the '7' trains with their original World's Fair paint scheme. Too bad he didn't wander over to Subtalk or Field Trips, or he would have seen my name and/or face. THAT would have been scary.
Thanks to the archives, I can find old messages I wrote from way back. Looking at some of them, I can only wonder, "What was I THINKING when I wrote this?!" If some threads seem to pop up over and over again, like best express run or possible service patterns for 63rd Street, it's no doubt because there are always new Subtalkers discovering this site, and any discussion involving the subway is fresh to them.
Dave, I bet you never knew what a monster you created!
Just a heartfelt "thank you" to Dave for hosting this wonderful site.
The accolades in the press, as well as the excellent discussions that develop are a tribute to his efforts. It has brought me much enjoyment, and I've met some wonderful people too. The SubTalk FieldTrips have been a highlight, and I look forward to many more.
It's fitting that the sun has finally come out after a week of gloom in both NYC and Boston!
Unfortunately, I couldn't make it to NYC today, but I do have a few hours, so I think I'll head out and ride the MBTA...
And that's...
Dave,
Congratulations on 5th Anniversary of NYC Subway Resources!! All I remember was searching "NYC SUBWAY" on one of the search engines late 1995 or early 1996, I was so excited about your site and felt it'll be popular site for years to come, boy! Was I right! And I wanted to thank you for letting me design and post 70+ maps on your site!
This site is a GEM! Keep it that way except to add more stuff which I'm sure will fall into your hands later!
Again, THANKS Dave and other contributing subfans!
Mike the Mailman in Denver
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
I've been Subtalking since mid-1997 IIRC. I had seen Subtalk mentioned on a nyc.transit post, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Does anyone know what is the problem with the R142's? I keep trying to get it but no success.
I won't be around for the next two weeks so I won't have to keep running out and taking long lunches.
Have a nice day !!! (and a nicer two weeks !!!!!)
The 142a is out of service again today because of door problems.
-Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Does that mean the Kawasaki clock is reset ?
I hope not, they made it up to half! It probably was, since I think the policy is if the train must go out of service due to any mechanical or technical problem, it must try again.
Saw the Shuttle laid up last night at Howard Beach. What is with that?
The Rockaway Park Shuttle consists of 3 trains. The Shuttle runs from Beach 116 Street to Broad Channel. After Broad Channel, it continues to Howard Beach and uses the express center tracks to relay. After it is relayed, it returns to Beach 116 Street. The shuttle you saw was probably relaying or just stored there for the night. I'm not sure where the Rokcaway Park Shuttles are stored during the night. If the interior lights on the train were off, it was being stored. If the interior lights were on the train was relaying there.
That's the...
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But they just built a relay track at Broad Channel, and have been using it for a while. The Howard Beach relay is only used when the bridge is opened, and 2 trains must be relayed at the same time once it closes (one at Broad Channel, the other at Howard Beach).
I thought they relayed on that little siding north of the Broad Channel station. At least that was what the one I was taking did.
I believe they relayed there when there was a G.O. calling for single tracking between Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
That's the...
running on...
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AP Aug 2 2000
Yesterday, the police department along with the mayor's office anounced that they will be using SEPTA to help deal with the throngs of protestors that have been disrupting the city during the RNC. John timinay has this to say.
"these protestors have come here seeking to disrupt the city and the convention. Why should the city have to then go and pay the costs of jailing and trying all of these protestors? With SEPTA's help we can have a better, more cost effective solution."
the current plan set forth by SEPTA is to load the arrested protestors onto R6 trains bound for Norristown. The R6 is the slowest commuter rail line in the world with an average speed of 2 miles per hour. City Hall has informed SEPTA that this is an exelent time for some anual track maintainence so even that figure will come down a little. the entire trip will take in the neighborhood of 14 hours one way. The protestors will be stripped of all cash so upon their arrival in Norristown they will be forced to bum a return fare from mostly republican suburbanites.
"We expect that the earliest the protestors will arrive back in the city will be sometime next week and by that time the Republicans and news media will be long gone." remarked mayor Street.
Because SEPTA does not want to appear inhumaine they have recruted local railfans to give a guided tour of the line as the train trundles along.
::vioce over of railfan giving tour in protest train::
"And if you look to your left you'll be able to see the origional 6 poineer III MU's. These were built for the PRR in the late 50's and were the first new MU power in 25 years. They were AC DC and used mecurary arc rectifiers." "BOOO mecurary kills!!!." "Don't worry the cars have all been upgraded with silicon-diode packs." "Ouch, my brain hurts." ::fade out::
The head of SEPTA had this to say. "For years the R6 has been a real drain. Because of the slow speeds we have had to operate dining and sleepings cars over the line. We are working on a plan to roll the savings from the protestor plan over to upgrade the line. being able to offer same day Centre City service can help us compete with I-76. right now the 12 hour schedual is only comperable with I-76."
Some more affluent suburbs are asking the city to send them some protestors too. They are interested in holding liberal hunts where local hunters chase down the hippies in SUV's and zap them with cattle prods. There has been no worn on this from city hall.
You need some help. Either put in the subject that your post is a phony story, or stop doing it. Yu're making your posts look like legitimate information, when it's just a load of crap.
AP is a respected news organization. Stop using the 'AP' on your crap stories.
-Hank
Hey, heypaul posts his as legitimate, but people know the heypaul name. besides I'm using it as a hook to try and get people to read the post. this way i can fool uptight people who may or may not be yourself (i don't have the short term memory to remember your other posts) into having a laugh. the AP is nothing but a sound byte service for low cost newspapers, but to make you happy, I'll change it.
Heypaul's posts don't have titles that would lead one to the belief that there is something serious behind it.
I'll put it to you this way: Your asinine posts make me long to read a post by Salaam Allah. He may not always get his facts right, he may be somewhat paranoid, he may not make much sense, but he never posts phony crap designed to make people believe they're reading something newsworthy.
-Hank
Looks like it's time for Jersey Mike to join the Killfile!
Score one for me!
The fall semester can't start soon enough...
David
I was talking to a guy last night who mentioned that LIRR is planning on building a massive tunnel to Manhattan. Does anyone know more details? Where? Is it going to Grand Central?
I suspect what you heard was someone talking about the LIRR's eventual use of the Lower Level of 63rd St. The bulk of the tunnel already exists, it just needs to be tied in at both ends.
Does anyone want to write me a 63rd St Tunnel FAQ for the site?
-Dave
OOOH! If you could do that it would be nice! :)
Thank you.
Andrew
from Harold Interlocking,to the lower level of 63 st ,,into the lower level of Grand Central /Park Av Tunnel ,curving around at approx 59 st,to a New LIRR Terminal on the Madison Av Side
There is also an alternate version to a new deep level terminal at GCT,
I have the Drawings of both versions from the Consultants
This also includes a New Station At Sunnyside LIC Queens
Steve Lowenthal
FDNY
Current East Side Access Project is as follows:
3 new tunnels from Harold Interlocking to new Plaza Interlocking at 29th St. in the lower level of the existing 63rd St. Tunnel. Tunnels to be called Tracks A, B/C, and D, leading from LIRR Port Washington 1 and Mainline 3, Mainline 1 and 2, and Mainline 4 and Port Washington 2 respectively.
Completely rebuilt Harold, F, R, and Point Interlockings, including bypass duck-under/flyover tracks for Amtrak and Port Washington Branch, new high speed crossovers, and new lead tracks to Sunnyside Yard.
New Wood-Win Interlocking east of Woodside Station.
2 new tunnels from Suunyside Yard Loop Tracks to Plaza Interlocking.
New Long Island Rail Road storage yard in present disused Yard A to be called "Eastside Yard" with between 24 and 30 storage tracks. Yard will include access from the 2 tunnels mentioned above as well as Amtrak Loop 1 and 2 Tracks, and tracks Sub 3 and Sub 4 to and from Penn Station.
New Long Island Rail Road maintenance base to be called Arch St. Maintenance Facility, located northeastwards from Amtrak East River tunnels.
New Sunnyside Station at Queens Blvd. with platforms on Line 1, Line 4, Eastward Long Island Passenger, and Westward Long Island Passenger.
Full equipping of existing 63rd St. tunnels for revenue service, including new interlocking at York St. in Manhattan.
New tunnels from end of existing 63rd St. tunnels at 2nd Ave. bored on deep (120 ft. down) alignment to center of Park Ave. where a new deep mined 8 track station stacked 4 and 4 will be built underneath Park Ave. from 44th St. northwards with a Mezzanine on top. New Interlockings at 60th St. and 53rd St. Grand Central Terminal will then have 6 levels, with 5 levels of tracks.
New Long Island Rail Road Station Concourse in Grand Central Terminal at present location of Madison Ave. Yard and the west lower level platform tracks (up to track 114).
New Metro North Commuter Railroad storage tracks at various location on Grand Central Terminal lower level to replace tracks removed circa 1984.
New Metro North Commuter Railroad maintenance base to replace Madison Ave. Yard at Highbridge Yard, in the Bronx.
Andrew Byler
Track and Civil Engineer
Systems Engineering Consultant
MTA/LIRR East Side Access
[Current East Side Access Project is as follows:]
[list of 12 major construction items]
Actual items that will ever be completed:
HOLY COW!
That is a TALL ORDER.
wayne
Read this web article about living in the tunnels. Is this true, any other details?
Try this article:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/mole-people.html
Thanks Dave.
The BMT (and its municipal/authority successors) operated extra trains to Coney Island on "sunny summer Sundays." But what did that mean? It had to have a specific meaning, because workers and cars must be available, because the public must be able to reasonably predict that these trains would or wouldn't be running, and because the regular schedule still had to be adhered to. If the BMT thought it would be a "sunny summer Sunday" but it turned out not to be, it would run empty or near-empty trains. If BMT guessed that it would be not a "sunny summer Sunday" but it turned out to be so, then crowds heading for Coney Island would not have the extras to carry them and the stations and trains would be overcrowded.
Of course, no reasonable person could be in confusion over what a Sunday is, and "summer" can be defined in terms of the calendar as between two particular dates. But who decided what was "sunny" and, more importantly:
1) How did they decide? Forecast in the morning Times? Phone call to the Weather Bureau? BMT official looking out his office window?
2) When did they decide? Once for the whole day, or at certain times of the day? If it was cloudy early in the morning and BMT decided not to run the extras, but then it cleared up by noon or the early afternoon, there would still be thousands of people heading to Coney Island and no trains to carry them. Conversely, if it was clear, the trains were run, and crowds filled the beaches, but then in the early afternoon clouds rolled in and rainstorms broke out, were the trains ready at Coney for the early return home or would the train crews have gone out for coffee anticipating that the homebound rush was hours away?
3) How did the public know the BMT's decision? Did everyone know the BMT's criteria (see question 1) and apply it themselves? Signal flag on the station entrances? Blurb on the front of the morning papers? Or did they just show up at the station and catch the first Coney-bound train whatever it was?
John, all great questions! I wish I could have been the BMT meteorologist back then...
And that's...
[The BMT (and its municipal/authority successors) operated extra trains to Coney Island on "sunny summer Sundays." But what did that mean? It had to have a specific meaning, because workers and cars must be available, because the public must be able to reasonably predict that these trains would or wouldn't be running, and because the regular schedule still had to be adhered to ...
1) How did they decide?
2) When did they decide?
3) How did the public know the BMT's decision?]
My guess is that the service probably ran on almost all summer Sundays. In those days before a myriad of entertainment options, people probably weren't as weather-(hyper)sensitive as they are today. A cloudy day? Off to the beach! Rain showers? Hey, we plan to get wet anyhow!
Maybe they ran on all Summer Sundays, the sunny part only reinforced the alliteration.
that's what i'd say. all summer sundays - the sunny part was just PR
Who has been on this MB since Day 1 (besides our exaulted leader)? If no one has who has been here the longest.
BTW can omnipotent web site host dig out the first ever subtalk post and the first non-Welcome to Subtalk post.
Why don't you just look at the Archives....
-dave
Does this include the stuff from before you switched to webBBS?
I have the messages but the format needs a little massaging. So, right now, no, the early messages are not included. There were approximately 8,000 messages from pre-Webbbs.
-Dave
I didn't realize I was in that early. I guess Dave's service and my internet connection appeared at about the same time. As I was searching around, of course, "subway" was one of the first things I looked for.
Some of those early posters don't post much anymore. They had lots of informative things to say.
And then there's US, who have very little to say, and post very often!
I was SHOCKED to se how long I have posting [off and on] on this damn thing!
I recall posting asince at least the 2nd anniversary! In checking the current archivesd I have posted since message 9.
As far as the archives go, I can trace myself back to post #128. I guess from a former TWU member, that gives me some pretty good seniority.....
Though by no means an original Subtalker, I first posted on this board wondering about the Myrtle Av. El. I had been expecting just a little something about when it had been abandoned but instead I found that people were posting great details about the Myrtle - that even led to creation of a new track map of the Myrtle. I soon "jumped in" to these message boards and largely through this site I have gone from transit buff to transit/subway buff - Subway maps adorn the walls of my room, I have multiple NYCSL t-shirts, I have put those track maps together in one Giant Mosaic that except for the far end of Queens Blvd. is a to-scale track map on one of my whole walls of my room - and I can tell the difference between an R-32 and an R-132 (yes, I DIDN'T know the difference before coming here). All thanks to this site. I now have ambitions to decorate the bathroom in my hoouse with a standard Mauve/Off-White IND tile band......
So while not an Original Subtalker, I should say thank you to Dave AND Subtalk in general for just, (tears coming to eyes), being here for me (breaks out sobbing, looks like one of those chick movies, camera pans out to show Abe sitting in room with a framed picture of Sea Beach Fred riding the Brighton Express in the 1940s that he bought on Subtalk...
I know I have been posting to this forum since Dave implemented it.
--Mark
Spent a power lunch hour at Main Street today, i.e. looking for MCs; picking up a Blue Meanie & The Yellow Submarine (anybody know what I'm talking about ?); and lunch at Mickie D's ... all on the same block.
While underground I was scanning a few Metro Cards & ran into two new Collectors, well I'll call them grabers. They saw what I was doing and asked to look thru my stack. Both took a few but I got nothing back. One asian I gave my business card to, the other opened his wallet and showed me that he only had a $20. I told him I didn't want any money, just other cards in return. Guess these are the guys that used to break into the discard boxes. Anybody else had this experience ?
Mr t__:^)
There's a guy who I see at 63rd Drive often picking up discarded MetroCards and scanning them, I once asked him if he found any ones where the "Full Fare" or "Pre Valued" line on the reader instead read "METROCARD SPECIAL".
I found one of these at Grand Ave a year ago with $.50 on it, and used it until it expired. A month before that happened, I found a replacement at Roosevelt Ave, I'm still using it, and it will expire 9/30/00. BTW: These are elusive cards, as they have no special design or markings on them whatsoever. However, I have seen some that do, but those aren't the ones I look for. I hope to find a replacement soon, as I have not used a normal PAY PER RIDE in two years.
A woman came by & scanned her card which had 25 cents on it.
Are You talking about cards with errors or ones someone has "fixed" somehow ?
There was a Station Agent who was "fixing" blanks. They caught him by tracing where the card got encoded.
BTW, the system only knows bad cards, that how he got away with the scam. However, there is a back room in the TA that just looks a activity trying to see anything out of the ordinary. The folks with guns once visited this depot as the crook was boarding one of our routes.
Mr t__:^)
Actually, it is possible to get 25 cents on a card by adding exactly $15.23 to one at an MVM. Plus 10%, you get $16.75, and when you use up the $16.50 in fares, you have $.25! Of course, adding a number like that is very unlikely, but it can be fun. It also works when you add 16.59, 17.95, 19.32...
Just thinking....since it rounds up, if you add 2.22 to the card, you get 22c added to the card. If you add 2.23, you get 25c. Interesting way to try and cheat the system out of a penny.
-Hank
You can't add numbers like that to a card. They have to be intervals of 50¢
Yes, the fact that it's very difficult to get "odd" Metrocard balances causes some weird looks from the people behind me when they see my $1.10, $1.60, $2.10, etc. balance. I purposely add $16 to my "newly acquired" card the first time I refill so it will never be empty.
The magic number is $27.50.
--Happy 5th, Dave!--
Of course, (how could I forget this!) you could just add $1.75, 3.25, 4.75...and pay the fare(s).
Yesterday at Pacific street I noticed something very strange. A set on R46's came on the express track , and it was a B train. On the side sign, it said "B:west end express". On the back roller curtain, it said "F", I also asked the conductor if it was going express over the west end line, but she had no clue. Guys, whats your take on this?
Nothing unusual. I've seen a F Train do this a bunch of times. Once I was at 42 Street ans there was a "police investigation" of "a suspicious package" at Roosevelt Avenue. The F Train instantly turned into a Q Train. The front ans side destination sign all turned into a Q. The F Train then continued on to 21 Street - Queensbridge. In your case something happened to the F Line south of Broadway Lafayette.
That's the...
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Assuming these were R-46s, what did their side signs say?
Q - Brighton Express? Q - Broadway Express?
I believe that the destination signs stayed at Q - 21 Street Queensbridge. It was a while back.
That's the...
running on...
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I noticed something very strange at Pacific street yesterday. A set of R46's pulled in on the express track, but it was a B train and the side sign said "B:West End express". In adition to that, the back roller curtain said F. I asked the conductor if the train was running express over the west end line, but she had no clue. Guys, what's your take on this?
If it was in the evening, it is easily explainable. A 'B' train, leaving Concourse Yard Derailed about 3:10 PM. The derailment blocked at least 2 other trains from leaving Concourse Yard. it's likely that at least one F and one D train were used to cover gaps in service.
(Incidently Wayne, car was 5150)
5150 - the LAPD's code word for 'EXCESSIVE NOISE'.
Steve - Any damage to the car?
thanks
Wayne
Some bonnet damage to #2 ends of 5150 and 5149.
#2 truck of 5150 - slight
Piping on both cars slight
Both will survive & be back in a few weeks
Will try to scan a few poor poloroids
The national power situation is starting to get scary. Low energy prices put the kabosh on restrained demand and increase supply, and we are paying the price. They are talking about rolling blackouts and brownouts in California next years (as per today's New York Times).
If the worst happens in New York, how will this affect the subway? Is the subway "exempt" from load sheds, and is it's power separate from the local grid? Is there a plan to close it down if demand is too high? If so, would there be warning to get the trains in the station? Might brownouts screw up the signals, triggering BIEs and making all hell break lose? Would they hurt the controllers or traction motors?
Last I knew the TA buys juice from the grid like anyone else(the in house power plants were sold off in the 50's in one of the sleight of hand maneuvers to keep the fares down) As to out here in California, the major problem IMHO is the "deregulation" which is shafting customers. The utilities have sold their generating plants to 'shell' companies not subject to the PUC who are now charging higher prices for the same kilowatts they used to produce in house. Like the cost of the fixed plant went up? (and what is depreciation?). To pretend that with only one set of delivery wires on a street, there is some sort of competition is like pretending that multiple water compnies are supplying drinking water through the city water system. The other major problem is that the efforts to reduce energy waste have largely subsided. One of the major reasons plant building stopped here was that the PUC showed the utilities with HARD #'s that it was more profitable to induce energy savings than to build new plants with high capital borrowing costs. This goes back to the period of inflation treason when the prime rate was higher than most credit card rates today. For many years energy use here was sufficiently restrained by increasing efficiency that the growing population was absorbed with little or no new capacity. In recent years the rebates designed to induce small businesses to upgrade lighting have been scrapped, thus with ensuing boom usage is growing faster than capacity--exactly the situation which calls for price controls. As I get it from my step-daughter in NYC Con Ed is involved in similar behaviour. Eat the rich.
Yes, I've heard that California is in trouble too. But while the rich are cashing in (conspiratorial hint -- businesses sell for the most they can get all the time) I don't blame them.
The problem, as Dick Cheney and Al Gore once said but now recant, is low power prices. With the incentive gone, as you say, conservation stopped, as did efforts to increase supply. It was always possible to ignore the short term, think long term, and go for energy efficiency anyway. Most people did not, as the SUV and 4,800 square foot six bedroom house craze shows.
Was volunatry simplicity really just a decade ago? After an entire life as a renegade, it was strange to be "in" for a couple of years.
Anyway, because both demand and supply are inelastic in the short run, energy prices seem to swing faster than co-op prices in Manhattan, no matter what OPEC decides to do. Leave the market alone and supply will increase, demand will decrease, and prices will fall, just like last time. Impose controls, and you'll get confused bureaucrats trying to manage the market and stinkin pols over-ruling them to divert power to their pals in the perpetual shortage.
Got to hope the engineers will come up with economically viable fuel cells and solar cells soon. Maybe this will wake people up and increase the level of effort.
BTW, I read that NIMBY protesters on Long Island are fighting a wind farm on environmental grounds, LOL.
We've lucked out so far with a mild July and no heat waves yet. Look at your July electric bill. Electricity cost about 44% more per Kwh than last year. California is already experiencing 'rolling blackouts'. Meanwhile back in NYC any plans for clean-burning electric generation are shot down by environmentalists who'd rather have us all sweating in the dark. Let's see how long NYC's economic boom continue once the power issue becomes critical, like after a series of blackouts in Manhattan below 59th Street. The deregulation of the power industry is being done in the worst possible way. A transition period should have been provided to allow incumbent utilities to keep their generating plants until a certain amount of competing plants were on line. It's easy for the Peter Vallone's of the world to blame Con Ed because the average New Yorker doesn't understand what's really taking place.
(Let's see how long NYC's economic boom continue once the power issue becomes critical, like after a series of blackouts in Manhattan
below 59th Street.)
The one good thing is that it isn't much better anywhere else. If the PSC had any brains (doubtful), it would never allow the central business district to be blacked out. Sweating it out at night in the dark is one thing. Not having a job to go to the next day is something else again.
While the 'official' policy may be to share the pain during rolling blackouts, I can't see Con Ed or any utility intentionally shedding load by killing power to the central business districts. It's not politically correct to say this but keeping Downtown and Midtown powered must be the first priority in a load crisis. How is California managing it's load shedding during their heat wave??
(How is California managing it's load shedding during their heat wave?? )
An interesting question. The only load shedding occurred earlier in the Bay Area. Did they shut down Downtown San Fransiciso, the fourth biggest central business district in the U.S.? Let me know if you find out.
Politically, they might want to shut down the commercial customers, even though economically is would be a big mistake.
[Downtown San Fransiciso, the fourth biggest central business district in the U.S.]
New York's clearly #1, and Chicago almost certainly is #2. So who's #3? My guess is Atlanta.
I tried to find this at the Census Bureau's website, but couldn't. Is it even there?
This is Marble Hill
The next stop on this A train is 231st Street
Eugenius A. Train -subtalker@boarshevik.com
The census bureau is www.census.gov, but you won't find information on the size of Downtowns there. Incredibly, no one every compiled the data that way. Other than me. I had to call around to census affliates and ask them to ask what the boundaries of their Downtown were (generously defined) in census tracts and add up employment BY PLACE OF WORK from the 1990 census.
Washington, DC is number three, with about 400,000 employed. The area is called the "DC Core" by area planners. NY has 1.8 million, Chicago 515,000. There are a few more between 170,000 (Cleveland) and 300,000 (San Francisco), then it drops off to the typical "major" city with 80,000 to 120,000. That's what Atlanta is. Downtown Brooklyn is also over 100,000.
Perhaps I'll repeat the exercise in 2004, when the 2000 JTW data comes out.
>>> How is California managing it's load shedding during their heat wave?? <<<
In Southern California the news has reported three power alerts this past week asking consumers to cut down on use (set air conditioners to 78 etc.), and indicating there may be rolling blackouts of up to an hour in various sections. They have offered incentives to businesses to cut down on use such as reduced rate if they close down on high consumption days.
In the Los Angeles area, there are two power companies, the City owned Department of Water and Power (DWP) and the private Southern California Edison. Los Angeles chose not to deregulate the DWP and it has excess capacity. It serves the City of Los Angeles, and there is no threat of blackouts in the city proper.
Most of the rest of Los Angeles County (there are something like 79 cities in the county plus unincorporated area) are served by SoCal Edison. Edison got rid of there generating capacity with deregulation, and their customers are the ones facing blackouts, because Edison is finding that they cannot buy enough electricity to meet demand when everyone else has high demand.
In San Diego, the electric utility sold off generating plants with deregulation, and are still providing power to their customers, but the rates have gone up 44% in the past few months as they have had to pay more for scarce electricity.
Tom
Alot of places have a shortage of electricity because no new power
plants are being built. Electric utilities want to build them, such as several in Brooklyn and Queens but environmental freaks and NIMBY's get in the way and stop these power plants.
In the article, it was mentioned a power plant in the SF/Bay area is being opposed by environmental groups.
You can thank the NIMBY's and environmental freaks for our power shortage. It is high time officials stop listening to these NIMBY's which make no sense, and listen to common sense. Much the same situation in Roslyn, where NIMBY's and enviro-freaks opposed a Stop and Shop supermarket but OK's development of over 500 upscale residential units. Now food is becoming a precious commodity in our area. We can't let these loud few risk our energy, food, and
infrastructure.
Idea: Communist-style electricity. A power plant must be built in your neighborhood if you wish to recieve power. If not, then candles and matches will be provided for a low fee.
(Idea: Communist-style electricity. A power plant must be built in your neighborhood if you wish to recieve power. If not, then candles and matches will be provided for a low fee. )
Happy to put some solar cells on my nice rowhouse roof. I actually looked into it, and it doesn't pay -- the power output is too low for the expense of installation. But if the power output could be increased significantly, that would change. Perhaps by the time I need a new roof.
How about a wind mill on the top of every new apartment bldg over 20 stories?
I would imagine that the noise police would complain but I think the idea has merit.
I've been to Florida more times that I care to think about (mainly to care for ill parents, etc.) Over the last 5 years I've made more than
20+ round trips by plane
2 Round trips by Auto-train
2 round trips by car.
1 round trip by motorcycle BUT
Florida by bus? I guess it's not just comedy we disagree about.
To be serious, you're like the salt in a recipe. You know it does nothing good for your health but it ain't the same without it. I know you'll continue to annoy me but things have been less interesting, here, lately.
?????
This seems a non sequitor. Did the system glitch? Was this intended as a response to another post?
The system didn't glitch - I did and posted it under the wrong thread. I corrected the mistake, leaving this message floating helplessly.
(How about a wind mill on the top of every new apartment bldg over 20 stories? )
The bad news is environmentalists and planners would fight them like hell. The good news is that if they ever got built, environmentalists and planners would demand that they be landmarked.
Right now, a bunch of "public interest" types are fighting the installation of a bunch windmills on Montauk Point, which LIPA wants to install as a demonstration project. They will be sited on a ruined industrial site, but it is officially within a state park, and the anti-windmill crowd says windmills in a park is not appropriate. The head of LIPA says if people are against windmills, what are they for.
A park. In Brooklyn.
Suppose LIPA offered to plant some tulips around them?
Folks at NREL (Nat'l Renewable Energy Lab) actually try to figure out how to make shingles into solar cells (or at least make the solar cells out of something that can reasonably be used for a roof).
In my more paranoid moments I've wondered if power companies are disinterested in solar cell research (and I think they are) because they could someday take the power company out of the loop. You generate power on your roof, the power company does nothing. Unfortunately, it will be a long time still before most americans can generate enough power on their roofs. An important question is whether the power company has to pay you if you generate power and put it back into the network, ie., at midday when you are at work, but demand on the grid is highest.
(In my more paranoid moments I've wondered if power companies are disinterested in solar cell research (and I think they are) because they could someday take the power company out of the loop. You generate power on your roof, the power company does nothing.)
The can still charge to transport the power to work in the afternoon, and transport other people's power home at night. In NYC, the power distribution companies are out of the supply business.
(An important question is whether the power company has to pay you if you generate power and put it back into the network, ie., at midday when you are at work, but demand on the grid is highest.)
In New York State, the meter can run backwards. But a rooftop unit that would cost $20,000 would generate just 4 kwh per day, while I use 10 kwh on average. Hardly seems worth it. Cutting the cost is one option, but getting up to 8 kwh in 400 square feet would be better, since my roof won't be getting any bigger.
>>An important question is
whether the power company has to pay you if you generate power and put it back
into the network, ie., at midday when you are at work, but demand on the grid is
highest. <<
by law, in some areas yes, BUT they pay at low rates even though they charge at time of day scales.
It is only fair that power companies buy power at wholesale and sell power at retail. The price that they will pay reverse users needs to be their lowest price, since their premium prices are only paid to reliable suppliers who can deliver bulk quantities on demand.
Anything else is unrealistic.
Elias
Not so--any power I can put back into the system relieves the utility or their so called outside supplier(shell companies created to insulate the generation fgacilities from state regulators but owned ultimately by the same holding company) of the cost of capital to build more generating and long distance transmission capacity.
It does depend on state regualtions, and who was able to negeotiate what. Here in North Dakota the sisters next to us built two huge wind turbines, the provied about half the power they need, but excess capacity is sold to MDU at a fraction of the cost of what they pay when the consume MDU power.
Elias
I would love for a nuclear power plant to be built in nearby Floyd Bennett Field. It would be nice to go up to the roof and seeing nuclear reactors in addition to the Verrazano Bridge and the Coney Island parachute drop along with some tall buildings in the distance.
Sounds like a great idea!!
Larry, to answer your technical questions (I stay away from
politics in general): The subway traction power distribution
system is from the regular grid. They are subject to load shedding
but ConEd (in the past, I don't know how it would work now that
energy "competition" is in place) consults with TA Power Distribution
Often the TA can reduce demand considerably by reducing service,
having trains run in SERIES only, turning off idle escalators,
turning off some of the station lights, etc.
Most of the BMT and IRT has dedicated power distribution for signals.
Most of the IND uses the nearest convenient source of 110VAC.
In the latter case, brownouts (voltage reductions) of more than
about 10% will cause some track circuits to drop out and some
signals to go red. Obviously in the case of a complete blackout
all the signals go dark and all the trip arms come up.
Sounds messy. Can't shed load in an area without shutting down the trains? And, of course, if you shut down a line in the middle you eventually shut down the whole thing.
How ironic if all those SUV drivers manage to shut down the subway by using up all the fuel.
I wonder if the TA is thinking about this.
Last year when we had huge demand, the subway ran with orders for Series only during 11am to 3pm for a day or two I recall.
I hate to criticize anyone for harping on SUVs but can we actually blame them for this situation?
There was a bit of humor.
But no doubt the return of the gas guzzler in SUV form, the increasing size of new homes, and the spread of air conditioner use to any time the temparature exceeds 72 degrees has strained the national energy supply system. Beginning in 1994 or so, per capita energy use started climbing after falling for 10+ years.
The same low prices that encouraged waste discouraged the development of alternative energy sources, and led to the shutdown of less productive oil and gas wells.
It would nice to see a supply rebound, but so many people got crushed when the price of energy plunged that it might be hard to finance new sources, even with high prices. Kind of like trying to finance NYC real estate development.
Right--why do you think some of us believe in state enforced planning? Letting the energy usage decisions be at either the whim of our OPEC 'friends' or the domestic oil cartel is dumb. BTW it was during the Reagan 'fantasy' era whenm several oil firms bought up and shut down small manufactures of solar products. (and now for transit content)
I am still searching for documentation on a study done ten plus years ago which suggested the Union Pacific could power all of its freight trains with windmill farms in Wyoming.. As an environmentalist(eponymous) I support the windmill idea for LIPA. I would probably give a real estate tax write down to any building with major "off the grid" equipment. The best part of course is not even the bill reduction, but the ability to ignore time of day or anything else. I have always wondered why the TA didn't figure out regenerative braking. It would save Billions.
The R-142 (and R-110) are equipped with regenerative braking.
What the TA shuold do is have an internal power distribution system so that, for example, when the power is shut off in Queens, it can be brought in from Manhattan, and vice versa.
(What the TA shuold do is have an internal power distribution system so that, for example, when the power is shut off in Queens, it can be brought in from Manhattan, and vice versa.)
I dunno. Is a duplicate power grid really what we want to spend our scarce captial resources on?
One of NYC's problems is that it doesn't have enough power locally, and also doesn't have enough high tension wires to import enough power. New power lines are even less popular than new power plants.
Maybe MetroNorth could sneak a couple of extra power lines on its poles.
40 years ago the TA had its own power sources. They were sold to Con Ed. because it was believed that Con Ed could do a better job of providing economical power. However, much like bell Atlantic or ATT or NYNEX (or whatever you want to call them)could not anticipate the demand for phone service in the late 90s, the power companies of NY State did not anticipate the growth of demand for electricity. The problem is simple. You don't want a fossil fuel plant in your neighborhood. You don't want a nuclear plant in your neighborhood. NY State has limited opportunity for hydro-electric plants and where they do exist, so do the environmentalists, telling us that building a dam will hurt the spawning of the Snail Darter or some such species.
Unfortunately, somewhere we've gone too far to one side. The (minority) environmentalists interests have so overwhelmed the rest of us that a crisis is only around the corner. If anyone doubts me, just look at what's going on out west. One of the Clinton legacies was to take as much land as possible and put it under federal 'protection'. While this pleased the environmentalists, the government has neither the resources or manpower to effectively manage this land. The result of stopping all selective logging is that the land has become dangerously overgrown. Is it any suprise that previously naturally accurring but controlable forest fires now go out of control so routinely? Is the destruction of 10s of thousands of acres better because it's due to natural disaster?
The answer to our near and long term power needs is simple. Much as we do now for environmental interests, we must start setting land aside for power generation. This land, chosen by lottery if you will, would be exempt from the NIMBYites & environmental impact studies but would still be required not to polute. In this way powere needs for the next generation could be met.
BTW: What will happen to all that land that Clinton has placed under federal protection one he's out of office and the next administration decides that it can't effectively manage it? A land-grab, the likes of which this country has not seen in 100 years. Could the Clinton's become the new robber-barons? White-Water west condos perhaps?
(Unfortunately, somewhere we've gone too far to one side. The (minority) environmentalists interests have so overwhelmed the rest of us that a crisis is only around the corner.)
Unfortunately, the timing is such that it's hard to make a case that excess regulation has caused our problems. Soaring prices have come on the heels of DE-regulation.
It seems that utilities were in no mood to build new plants unless the government guaranteed them a profit no matter how great their waste, inefficinecy, and outright them. Regulation game us Shoreham, but people have forgotten about that.
Rather than look for a big conspiracy, I suggest finding the problem in the millions of decisions made by households, businesses, and investors. The former slacked off conservation, the latter decided power generation was an unprofitable bet. Stupid people failed to look beyond the temporarily low price of oil/gas/electricity. Unfortunately, everything about energy is capital intensive, so it will take a couple of years to reverse those decisions. Let the price stay high, and the market will do its job.
The one environmental issue relevant to New York is up on James Bay. Quebec wanted to dam up more of the huge rivers flowing to the artic, and sell the power at a profit. New York State was to be a key market. They needed to move some native Indians out of the way. The Indians protested, saying the flooding would destroy their hunting grounds, which were their property. In addition to getting caught up in the Quebec sovereignty issue, the Indians brought their claims to New York's liberals, who sided with the Indians.
But I believe that in the end project collapsed for economic reasons, not political reasons -- the price of power was low, and it seemed like a risky investment. We'll see if it comes back now. You still need the power lines to get it down here, however.
the Indians brought their claims [re Quebec power plants] to New York's liberals, who sided with the Indians.
But of course.
I beg to differ. While you may not like protection of 'poster' fauna such as the snail darter, perhaps you might look at the statistics on salmon. It appears that the multitudinous dams on the Columbia, Snake et al have contributed to a massive decline in salmon population. Secondly, the large flat surfaces of the lakes behind dams are perfect evaporation ponds. So hydro power is not perfect either. Yes we need more generation capacity, ALSO less wasted power, more efficient usage of what we have. We need as well to stop overheating the atmosphere--seethe articles this weekend on the melting at the North Pole. We here in the US consume over 80 % of the resources produced yet we are a tiny fraction of the total humanity.
On the contrary, I'm not talking about ecological irresponsibility. I'm talking about setting aside land for ecology and land for power generation and finding a balance.
As for the salmon situation, I am not sure what the statistics are but when I can buy salmon steaks for $2.99/Lb. and salmon fillet for $3.99/Lb. while Chilean Sea Bass is $10.99/Lb. I don't see where salmon is in short supply.
The point is chipmunks are cute. Owls are interesting and the eagle is magestic in flight. However, in the summer when it's 90+ degrees, we want to have AC, we want our trains to run and we don't want to be trapped in elevators due to rolling blackouts. I don't want to irradiate the ground-water around my grand-children's home but with a little common sense we can have pleanty of power without all of the political wrangling and NIMBYism.
As for the salmon situation, I am not sure what the statistics are but when I can buy salmon steaks for $2.99/Lb. and salmon fillet for $3.99/Lb. while Chilean Sea Bass is $10.99/Lb. I don't see where salmon is in short supply.
Salmon, like catfish and, increasingly, shrimp, is largely farm-raised.
I suspect that the high prices for Chilean sea bass are an example of good ol' supply and demand at work. It's become a very trendy fish, and therefore demand has increased more rapidly than supply.
Fish goes in and out of fashion more quickly than women's clothing. To take the most extreme example, until suprisingly recent times New England fishermen considered lobsters the ultimate trash fish. Ones that were accidentally pulled up in nets usually would be sold for pennies each as fertilizer. Monkfish is a more recent example. They were considered trash fish until ten or fifteen years ago, probably because they are such ugly beasts and their flesh has the consistency of firm gelatine. But then monkfish became trendy, and now their filets - as gelatinous as ever - sell for $7.50 and up per pound. Tuna steaks are another example. Hardly ever eaten in that form a decade ago, they're now fetching $10 and more per pound.
-And I suspect we ultimately are closer in outlook than on first glance, but the unintended consequences of many seemingly good projects need attention IMHO. BTW my recollection of the sale by the TA of the generating facilities was that the cash flow covered operating deficits keeping the fare stable(as Larry would say--a dumb deal in the long fun but great short term PR for the pols) UURC this was circa 58.
(BTW my recollection of the sale by the TA of the generating facilities was that the cash flow covered operating deficits keeping the fare stable(as Larry would say--a dumb deal in the long fun but great short term PR for the pols) UURC this was circa 58. )
At least Hevesi stopped Giuliani from "selling" the city reseviors to a shell agency controlled by the state and using the cash to balance one year's budget.
I'd have to disagree on a number of points. First that there
is some sort of problem with excessive forest growth in the west!
Almost all of the world's old-growth forests have been depleted.
If there has been any statistically significant increase in the
number or severity of forest fires, it is more likely explained
by the increased energy in the atmosphere from global warming,
which tends to produce more intense winds and extreme weather
patterns such as long periods of drought.
Constructing nuclear plants in remote areas might be attractive
in avoiding NIMBYism, but remember you need to be able to staff
the plant and to transmit its power back to civilization. With
nuclear, the danger extends far beyond the local area if radioactive
gas is released. US plants have an excellent safety record.
I'd be more concerned about places where safety is not as
stringently observed such as the former USSR, India, China, etc.
About the only truly non-polluting, non-hazardous means of power
generation is solar and wind. Hyrdo is clean but it does mess
up the balance of waterways. Of course, in theory you could suck
so much power away from the eart via solar or wind so as to affect
the climate, but that's rather unlikely.
I think you made a reference elsewhere to the ConEd blackout
problems this and last summer and I'd just to like to point
out that Con Ed's problems are mostly on the distribution side,
not the generation.
Getting back to transit-related discussion, on the average and
in the long run, it is probably more economically efficient to
have the subways purchase commercial power than to generate it.
During times when the commerical power grid has trouble that
decision is easily questioned.
The operative questions are, I believe, two. Does the TA have enough in house expertise to manage what is essentially an entirely different task? And, can the TA do it sufficiently well enough to make in house generation competitive? Interesting parralel--when should a railroad(or transit authority) do in house remanufacture/GOH work as opposed to either outsourcing the work or buying new when existing fleet has potential rebuild life? Clouding the issue, sometimes "externalities" such as overly favorable leasing terms (read the vendor was more interested in volume than unit profit) sometimes tip the balance. However, if the TA could generate some or at least a baseline quantity of its own reasonably, I would be in favor. In turn as it like the rest of the grid has little demand in owl periods, it might be prudent to explore a "Helms Creek" setup--a Pacific Gas & Electric facility which stores up water in holding tanks underground during slack periods to be used to generate during peak needs.
Posted on Railpace's hotnews site: "Amtrak has introduced at least one of the new HHP-8 locomotives to revenue service. On August 2 the 655 powered Clocker train 645 from New York to Philadelphia." (
A Clocker?! Aren't those the trains that accept NJT passes?
Weekly and monthly NJT tickets are accepted on some Amtrak clockers, but not #645 or other non-rush hour trains.
Bob
what is a PM150 Relay? I saw an old episode of Transit Transit News
Magazine, and there was an old guy talking about a PM150 Relay. Talking about removing an old Relay base.
What is a PM150 Relay? What does it have to do with the Trains?
That's a PN150 relay. It is a plug-in DC signal relay
made by Union Switch & Signal Co.
How many people have read that article that is posted on the front page here?
Heypaul, how does it feel to be a celebrity?
From 3 July "LONDON TRANSPORT" was replaced with a new Organisation "TfL, TRANSPORT for LONDON" (must be small 'for'!) controlled by the newly elected Mayor of London.
In 1984 the London Transport Executive was replaced with a new body: London Regional Transport (LRT) which was a holding Company for: London UndergronD Ltd, London Buses Ltd & LT Museum.
They initially dropped the name London Transport, although it gradually came back into popular use. LRT has since acquired Victoria Coach Station Ltd and London River Services Ltd.
From 3 July it is now quite complicated!
'LRT' still survives as holding only London UndergrounD Ltd. This is NOT however part of 'TfL' yet.
'TTL, TRANSPORT TRADING LIMITED' now holds London Bus Services Ltd (inc. Croydon Tramlink), London River Services Ltd, Victoria Coach Station Ltd, Docklands Light Railway Ltd & London'S Transport Museum(note addition of "'S" to name!).
'TfL, TRANSPORT for LONDON' now includes the former London Transport- except the UndergrounD, TTL, the Highways Agency for London, the Traffic Director and even the Public Carriage Office who regulate London's famous black taxi's.
This makes 'TfL' similar in scope now to the MTA, possibly!?
How does a T/O and conductor get onto a train laid up in a yard somewhere? Do they just walk down the tracks and climb up or what? How about on subways with ATO? Does a tower person or computer drive the train until a T/O can walk on board?
Well, the T/O walks on the trackways to the yard. I believe they are instructed to walk on the fiberglass and/or wood and over any rails. When the T/O get's to the train he/she climbs on with the help of a step suspended from the bottom of the onside (under the T/O's operating position) and handles all around. The cab door should be unlocked from the last T/O on the train. A hande brake inside the cab to be operated from should be engaged by the last T/O. After that the T/O charges up the train and pulls it up to a little box where he punches a lineup to get out of the yard. When the lineup clears he gets to a station and goes into service. I'm not sure if the T/O picks his own train or any other pre-operating procedures that have to be done before pulling out. Some REAL T/Os will have that answer. I hope this helps.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
Train crews report to the yardmaster who advises them what track their train is on, and I assume gives them a north or south car number to verify that it's the right train. [Unless of course the procedure has been modernized since I left in 1977--maybe it's on a computer screen?] Sometimes I wish I could have picked my own train when we had the R9's..that one would have been mine if there were choices.
You are not supposed to step on the protection board. You
are supposed to step over it (and try no to catch your
heel in the third rail). Most train crews I've seen step on
the boards. You are also not supposed to step on the running
rail while getting on and off via the grab irons, but again
most people do.
Around midnight yesterday, a train hit a person walking on the tracks beween Oakland City and Fort McPherson. The guy was wearing dark clothes and they don't know how he got on the tracks. The area was dark, so there was no way of seeing the guy. This is the fourth person this year that has been killed by a MARTA train.
AEM7 901 is back on the NEC since the Hackensack River derailment in late 1996. It's been less than four years since that accident.
Not only is AEM7 901 back, but it is remanufactured as an AEM7AC. This week 901 and another AEM7AC, 918, hauled #182 northbound, and #85 southbound at least on Tuesday, yesterday, and today. 918 is the lead engine with 901 as the trail engine. Hopefully this pair will haul the same train numbers again tomorrow.
Glad to see 901 back on the NEC.
Chaohwa
The same set of AEM7ACs-- 918 and 901 hauled train #182 again today. I asked an engineer why 901 is always the trail engine. He said it was because 901 was under testing.
If you want to catch these two AEM7ACs this afternoon, be sure to wait on train #85.
Chaohwa
There was another smoke condition at Boro Hall this afternoon around 4:45pm. This time it was in the Joralemon tubes. The smoke seemed to be thick because everytime a Bklyn bound train enter the station, smoke filled the cars. Anybody got anymor info on this?
3Train#1977Mike
There was another smoke condition at Boro Hall this afternoon around 4:45pm. This time it was in the Joralemon tubes. The smoke seemed to be thick because everytime a Bklyn bound train enter the station, smoke filled the cars. Anybody got anymore info on this?
3Train#1977Mike
I am looking for the following out-of-use subway signs, or pictures
of them:
1. CANAL STREET Station sign with Chinese Characters on it
2. EMERGENCY EVACUATION Instructions in Spanish. Used to be on
a sticker inside the cars. English would be of interest too!
> EMERGENCY EVACUATION Instructions in Spanish
Yes I remember that. It's the only Spanish I know... "no se apoye contra la puerta" "la via del tren es peligrosa"... Haven't seen them in a long time...
We have a picture of the Canal Street sign on the BMT Broadway page.
-Dave
I actually bought that sign (sticker) at the last Transit Museum Auction & Tag Sale. It is hung up in my office so my cubemate and I know how to get out of there in case of an emergency :)
--Mark
Don't the PATH trains have an English/Spanish emergency instructions sticker that is very similar to the one that used to be on the subways? When I first saw it on PATH, I was very surprised, because it seemed to be the same as the ones put up by NYCTA. The subway stickers are long gone, but the ones on PATH remain. I would be interested in a comparison of the wording between the two. Are they identical? If not, what are the differences?
Dunno about the PATH sign ... I'd have to take a look at it.
--Mark
Check out The Long Island Rail Road Papers-a little long but funny!
Not funny, just accurate.
-Hank
Long but true
Having been a LIRR commuter for a few months, I was almost rolling on the floor laughing with that one! I wonder if an out-of-towner could appreciate the humor of that!
:)Andrew
When I reported for work at 207th Street today, I was told that the the new jobs for the next pick were posted. I went to check it out. Imagine my surprise when I saw that they have it scheduled for the B to run along Central Park West up to 145th Street on the weekends! And that's in addition to the C service that's already going to 168th Street. That's good news for those living on and commuting to/from CPW. It's also good news for A riders, who will have express service extended in Manhattan since the B is scheduled to operate until about midnight.
Of course, since the B will no longer be going to 21st Street-Queensbridge, they now have a full-time shuttle operating. I don't remember where it will be running to, but when I go back to work tomorrow, I'll be sure to look it up.
Wouldn't it be nice if they had the Q Brighton express running. But it's funny they would do this when the whole thing is going to change drastically next year. (Are you sure the weekend service wasn't for GO's?)
Hay wow another T/O or just one of our old friends with a new disguise ?
One of the great things about this site are the employees who don't let the buffs or TA "suits" make their fantasies/propaganda appear to be the real thing, not that fantasies aren't interesting to listen to, but knowing that there is someone out there to tell you what is realy going on is very valuable to a guy who wants to know how it works.
Welcome colleague ... Mr t__:^)
Actually, sir, I do work for NYCT, and I'm not a train operator. I am a conductor who works the A line on the PM shift.
While I do realize that there are people who post speculative comments on the boards regarding train service (and yes, I confess to be one of them; that is what this board is partly for, being somewhat of a roundtable discussion online), I can assure you that I do know what I saw on that pick board, and that is that B service will be running on the weekends along Central Park West beginning in November.
Whether you believe me or not, that is what they have scheduled to happen.
I am looking for the Canal St. Station signs which were replaced.
They were just the ordinary black signs but had the Chinese Characters
under "Canal St" . The new mosaics are nice, but I need the old ones
(Really just a photo would be fine!)
I also need to see if any of the transit employees saved the
Emergency evacuation stickers in Spanish - or have a photo of them.
They were taken down for political correctness reasons. I need
these both for a project. HELP!
No, this question doesn't directly concern Metro North's Port Jervis service, but rather the city of Port Jervis itself. Last night I was browsing this site (http://www.ghosttowns.com - I forgot how to put in a link) that lists "ghost towns" in almost every state. Many of these are small abandoned settlements rather than ghost towns in the classic western sense. I was quite surprised to see Port Jervis listed as a "ghost town" under the New York listings. According to the description, submitted by "Jen C.," Port Jervis' downtown is largely abandoned, following a decline that began in the 1970's and accelerated in the 1990's, with most businesses having moved to nearby New Jersey or Pennsylvania. Jen does acknowledge that the area is becoming a NYC bedroom community.
I was in Port Jervis only once, about five or six years ago, and I certainly don't remember that it seemed abandoned or deserted. I would have remembered if things had been really bad. Have things changed for the worse since then, or is Jen C. overstating her case a bit? BTW, the people who run the site are from Arizona, and rely on submissions from site visitors when it comes to alleged ghost towns in other parts of the country.
In general, upstate New York has a lot of abandonned downtown areas. The region is in economic decline. In fact, upstate in general and the Route 17 coridor in particular (which Port Jervis dosen't really belong to) has really missed out on the economic recovery of the 1990's.
However Port Jervis could be considerred sort of the extreme, extreme edge of the New York metro area. So for better or for worse it could be subject to the suburban treatment of strip malls gradually displacing downtown areas.
What is different about New York, relative to many other parts of the country, is that many of it's small towns are cities are NOT abandoned. Essentially, the state stepped in and provided government facilities when their economic base disappeared. Compare with Pennsylvania, or (worse) South Dakota.
[What is different about New York, relative to many other parts of the country, is that many of it's small towns and cities are NOT abandoned. Essentially, the state stepped in and provided government facilities when their economic base disappeared. Compare with Pennsylvania, or (worse) South Dakota.]
I'm not so sure that should be a source of pride for New York. When a community loses its economic reason for being, it probably would be best to allow it to peacefully pass away, rather than keep it alive with taxpayer money.
[I'm not so sure that should be a source of pride for New York. When a community loses its economic reason for being, it probably would be best to allow it to peacefully pass away, rather than keep it alive with taxpayer money.]
I must disagree. By this logic, there would be no subway or transit. Imagine if the subway were "allowed to peacefully pass away," because it has "no economic reason for being." No one has made money on any rail-passenger transport for decades, and barely did when it was profitable. I know you'll argue that the subway's "economic reason for being" is that it helps feed corporate coffers by getting all of us drones to our workplace every day, thereby justifying the use of taxpayer money. However, I think Larry's example alludes to cases where the state government has located offices for its various operations in cities upstate other than Albany. For example, if you ever have to change your address on your driver's license, you send the form to Utica. Utica is a famously depressed city. Locating this function of state government in that city provides a few jobs in what would otherwise be an desolate job market. This isn't just welfare for Utica. It's win-win for the state and the city. Furthermore, it would cost the state the same, if not more, to build the facility in Albany or New York City. In both cases, transit and the Utica example, I can't think of a better way for government to re-invest in its people. Some government spending is necessary. Why not distribute it more equitably throughout the state?
(Locating this function of state government in that city provides a few jobs in what would otherwise be an desolate job market. This isn't just welfare for Utica. It's win-win for the state and the city. Some government spending is necessary. Why not distribute it more equitably throughout the state? )
Nothing wrong with putting necessary functions in lower-cost locations. But New York State has created unnecessary operations in order to provide excess jobs for connected people upstate -- the Republican analogy to the Democratic Medicaid boondoggle here in the City. Most Upstaters don't benefit from the Republican job machine, just as most New York City residents don't cash in the Democratic equivalent. It's just a ripoff.
New York State doesn't invest in cities, it disinvests. The beneficiaries of state spending are smaller places.
This is true. And indeed arround Long Island and Westchester, as well as upstate, there are beautifully restored downtown areas. But some upstate communities have bigger problems than a downtown revitalization can solve. Rust Belt cities such as Buffalo have seen their industires disapearing out from under them. And Port Jervis has a disadvantage in relative isolation (at least with regard to public transit.)
Plattsburg as well as Rome with the loss of their military bases are looking pretty bad. I was in Rome last year for the Woodstock festival talking with locals, they all admit they've been hit hard with the closure.
Plattsburg, if it wasn't for cross boarder shopping from Canadians it would be in serious trouble. Even with this phenomenon, one of two big malls in the area has had to shut down in the past 5 years.there is very little industry to keep these towns going. Very much like in the South Bronx.
The comparison with the South Bronx is telling. Most states have not only lost their old small towns and cities, but their urban neighborhoods in their own big cities as well. The Bronx and Brooklyn held on, barely. Many Brooklyn neighborhoods are booming, but the business sector has not begun to recover. We'll have to see what happens.
[Plattsburg, if it wasn't for cross boarder shopping from Canadians it would be in serious trouble. Even with this phenomenon, one of two big malls in the area has had to shut down in the past 5 years.there is very little industry to keep these towns going.]
Doesn't the Bombardier plant help?
I think the Bombardier plant qualifies under "very little industry." :-)
What is different about New York, relative to many other parts of the country, is that many of it's small towns are cities are NOT abandoned
Which explains why Port Jervis and other upstate cities are in such wonderful shape.
The Rt 17 corridor missing out on the economic recovery???? That must explain all that traffic we have; how Orange Co is the fastest growing area in NYS [Orange Co. has one of the lowest unemployment rates in NY...]; must explain how the biggest problem economically we have is finding skilled construction workers, etc,etc....
Port-yes...they really have never recovered from the Erie starting to pull out in the 60's. Even so, their downtown is all THAT bad.And Ports ALWAYS been kinda isolated, being in that valley separate from the rest of Orange Co....SULLIVAN County..yes..New York State stil hasn't figured out the Gambling Facts of Life as far as a resort area these days is concerned..
BUT..Middletown is doing just fine, thank you. Middletown is one of those towns who have figured out the big dept stores aren't coming back downtown- so you try to attract smaller businesses..Middletown has become quite the little arts center, with a bunch of galleries around
Newburgh's doing pretty good too..and all these formerly small towns are literally trying to catch up with all the growth....Yes, you hit a sore point....
[The Rt 17 corridor missing out on the economic recovery???? That must explain all that traffic we have; how Orange Co is the fastest growing area in NYS [Orange Co. has one of the lowest unemployment rates in NY...]; must explain how the biggest problem economically we have is
finding skilled construction workers, etc,etc....
Port-yes...they really have never recovered from the Erie starting to pull out in the 60's. Even so, their downtown is all THAT bad.And Ports ALWAYS been kinda isolated, being in that valley separate from the rest of Orange Co....SULLIVAN County..yes..New York State stil hasn't figured out the Gambling Facts of Life as far as a resort area these days is concerned..]
I figured that you'd weigh in on this thread before long. You are completely right about Orange County, it's anything but a depressed area. Most likely, that comment about the Route 17 corridor referred to western parts of the state, such as Binghamton and Elmira, which (at least so I've heard) have missed the boat when it comes to prosperity.
With regard to Port Jervis, I assume you meant to say that downtown is *not* all that bad. My guess is that "Jen C." had some ulterior motive in calling it a ghost town.
From a commercial traffic/business stanpoint, the Route 17 corridor figures to benefit now that it's the I-86 corridor, especially the western section. Once the route starts appearing on newer maps, traffic will be more inclned to use I-86 from Erie to Binghamton and I-88 from there to Albany to bypass the Thurway tolls. The section from Binghamton to I-87 already is the favored route for people going up to Syacuse, Rochester and Buffalo from NYC.
Portions of Orange County with transportation access have been booming. That means Rt 17, I-87 and I-84. Transportation used to mean rail and river, but not anymore. Port Jervis is off the map as far as Orange County growth is concerned.
Add a direct rail link to GCT via a new Tappan Zee, and that may change.
[Port Jervis is off the map as far as Orange County growth is concerned.
Add a direct rail link to GCT via a new Tappan Zee, and that may change.]
Maybe, but it still would be a long haul from the city.
By "Route 17 Corridor" I didn't really mean Orange County. It really applies more to Sullivan and maybe Delaware Co.
Did Delaware County ever have much of an economy? Today, at least, NY 17 through Delaware has the lowest traffic counts of any section of Interstate or Interstate-to-be highway in New York State (yes, even lower than I-86/NY 17 through the western Southern Tier).
[Did Delaware County ever have much of an economy? Today, at least, NY 17 through Delaware has the lowest traffic counts of any section of Interstate or Interstate-to-be highway in New York State (yes, even lower than I-86/NY 17 through the western Southern Tier).]
Delaware County was always mainly agricultural. AFAIK, it didn't have any other significant industry and hence can't really be said to have declined in the same sense as Sullivan County - which, in contrast, did once have a thriving economy based on vacation resorts.
(Delaware County was always mainly agricultural. AFAIK, it didn't have any other significant industry and hence can't really be
said to have declined in the same sense as Sullivan County - which, in contrast, did once have a thriving economy based on
vacation resorts).
My in-laws retired to Delaware County, so I know it well. The county has dairy farms on poor soils, and that industry has been in a depression forever. It survives on government farm supports. The real economy is state government jobs, local government jobs supported by state aid, city payments in exchange for maintaining the watershed, and working off the books for middle-class retirees. The usual rule is that the wife has the on-the-books government jobs, while the husband does what he can. Often people have two or three part-time jobs, none of which pay much. But the place is pretty, so no one wants to leave. Many people are very, very poor. Appalachia, but with better public services.
The population is about the same as in the 1830s. The county had a bunch of railroads back when, which made it an accessible place by the standards of the time, so it had more prosperity. I-88 follows one of the rail routes along the county's northern border. There were resorts, and are some fairly substantial 100+ year old houses in some of the towns, like Stamford, Grand Gorge, and Margretville -- the latter is newly popular with the Soho set.
I have been to PJ on 2 non-consecutive occasions and both times I was there it was pretty active. Of course I was there in the summer and that area is big on summer activities like hiking and canoeing in the Delaware. Hi-point NJ is right accross the border.
I also have passed through Port Jervis on an average of twice a year for the past 10 or 15 years or so. The downtown area, while it might not be described as vibrant, certainly does not qualify as abandoned.
The description is relatively accurate, I'd say. Port Jervis was a regular family reunion site when I was growing up so I'm familiar with the town in the '50s and '60s (back when Flo Jean's Restaurant was in its heyday), and I've been back through there several times in the past four years. When I was last there (August 1999) the town seemed to be coming back a bit, but still there wasn't much to really brag about. As noted on the website, most of the retail businesses have relocated across the state line to a big shopping center Matamoros, Pennsylvania, joining many that have abandoned Milford, PA as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Matamoros is a town in Mexico, just across the Rio Grande from Brownsville, Texas. The name Matamoros means "Kill Moors" - not a terribly appealing name in itself.
The town in Pennsylvania, just across the Delaware from Port Jervis, NY, is Matamoras - with an "a" before the final "s" instead of an "o". Matamoras means "Kill Moorish Women" - if the name of the Mexican town is offensive, the name of the Pennsylvania town is much worse. Why it was given this name I haven't the foggiest. Did someone see Port Jervis as in some way analagous to Brownsville? Was the Port Jervis/Matamoras area somehow seen as a "female" counterpart to Brownsville/Matamoros? I can't figure out the connection.
Anyway, last summer I drove out to Port Jervis on I-84. Actually, I got off at the first exit in Pennsylvania, where there is indeed a large shopping center, with a Perkins "Family Restaurant" featured prominently. I doubled back on US 6 through Matamoras to Port Jervis, and the area did see kind of run down, but by no means deserted.
Just over the bridge back to New York State is the Port Jervis train station. There is an odd underpass which is somewhat confusing, since a solid line starts separating the lanes that go under from the lanes that go over before there is any indication of which lane goes where. In the parking lot by the station is a Burger King and a Chinese restaurant featuring an "all you can eat" buffet for a fixed price. It sounds like a good deal, but the food is not great. There are also signs announcing the presence of the old Turntable (for turning locomotives), but I didn't actually see it.
Leaving the station lot, I got in the wrong lane and wound up in what I guess is "downtown". There was a large grassy area occupying a block, or maybe two, kind of a big "village green". I drove around it and don't think I saw anyone in or around it, but it seemed to be well maintained nevertheless.
There are also signs announcing the presence of the old Turntable (for turning locomotives), but I didn't actually see it.
It's right at the left edge of the parking lot - I'm surprised you missed it. Beyond it about 500 yards or so are the old concrete coaling towers. The turntable was refurbished in '96 so that 614 could be turned there. The difference in that immediate area between May and October of that year was incredible - twenty years of weeds and brush cleaned up and the turntable put back in working order.
About three miles or so down route 6 toward Milford is the Village Diner. When I was there last summer it was definately getting shabby but it's still a tremendous place to eat (I've had over 40 years' experience with that place). It has been for sale since about 1995 but no takers. Old-fashioned automatic juke box with from-your-booth control, still working, and that wonderful '50s stainless steel and linoleum.
The old train station in PJ has a museum in it but I've never found it to be open. Peeking in the window, it has a modest amount of Erie memorabilia. It's a long hike from where NJT/MN has their station now, but if you ride the train in you'll pass it at a distance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse-
The Village Diner just reopened 'under new management' this past spring, so I guess they found a buyer! Also, some friends just went to Flo-Jeans last night, and enjoyed tremendously! *AHEM!* To get this sort of on topic- I actually found the Erie museum open once- it has a few nice items, but not very much....Actually the 'hot' spot in Port is Homers Coffee Shop- where the rumors and gossip run faster than the Delaware in springtime!
[a Chinese restaurant featuring an "all you can eat" buffet for a
fixed price. It sounds like a good deal, but the food is not great.]
Long Island's chock full of those joints now. Your assessment of the food is, indeed, quite accurate.
>>>>Last night I was browsing this site (http://www.ghosttowns.com)<<<
Thanks for the tip. How could I have overlooked it?
I intend to take the Metro North all the way out to Port Jervis one of these days, and take a look at the place myself.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[>>>>Last night I was browsing this site http://www.ghosttowns.com)<<<
Thanks for the tip. How could I have overlooked it?
I intend to take the Metro North all the way out to Port Jervis one of these days, and take a look at the place myself.]
It's an interesting site, but one thing that bothers me is that they refuse to give specific directions to any ghost towns out of "vandalism" fears. Anyone who wants to find one of the ghost towns in order to vandalize it could do so with some research. So why withhold the information and inconvenience, even if only slightly, people who have honest motives? I dislike I-know-but-I'm-not-telling-you attitudes ....
Anyway, rant mode off, there's another ghost towns site that's much better, although it only has ones located in Arizona: www.azghosttowns.com It has fairly detailed descriptions of most of the ghost towns, and even tells you whether they're worth the trip, based on remoteness and the extent of the remains. After reading it, I have *such* a temptation to drive out to Arizona and use my new SUV to do a little exploring ... on the other hand, the mileage limit on my lease *does* tend to discourage long trips :-)
BTW, if you want to see a REAL ghost town, much better than Port Jervis, just take NJTransit to Asbury Park. You will be shocked at what you see.
The mention that Asbury Park is deserving of "ghost town" status goes to show that youthful memories die hard. I first saw Asbury Park from the window of a P-70 coach on a Bay Head local - with a K4 on the point. It's 1956, my aunt who happens to be a nun has just been assigned to a convent at 401 Atlantic Avenue in Point Pleasant, just 400 feet from the NY&LB. The CNJ trains were pulled by Fairbanks-Morse Train Masters, but the Pennsy was running out the miles on the fabulous K4's. For a teenaged railfan, heaven came early.
Point Pleasant was nice enough, but for a teen, the action was up the road 1 stop at Asbury Park.
My parents and I came up every summer for two weeks, Dad to see his baby sister. We got to stay in the convent's two guest rooms, and the days started early. 6:00 AM to be exact. The first train out of Bay Head was always a CNJ train amd left there at 5:42 AM. There were 13 grade crossings between Bay Head and Point Pleasant station, and that engineer blew for every one. Those Train Masters had LOUD horns!
Atlantic Avenue is two blocks from the station. If you were not awake after that concert, you were dead.
Good to hear from a fellow K4 fan. I never saw one until I was 14 and my acquaintance with them short lived, like 4 month's worth, rode the Oct. 20, l957 fantrip [#612] and that was it, actually my only ride behind one. But thank Gilbert-American Flyer's K5 model, almost a K4, for making me a Pennsy steam fan.Got one for Xmas 47. Still running one today [AF 312]
The only Trainmasters I ever had experience with were the ones on Southern Pacific on the San Francisco peninsula between San Jose and the city. SP's had Nathan M-5 chime horns, and theirs were quite loud too -- with PLENTY of reason to blow them the countless grade crossings.
Didn't CNJ also run down to Bay Head Junction with Baldwin double-ender diesels?
They might have, but by '56 the service was held down on the CNJ by the Train Masters. They were still there in 1964, when a friend form NYC and I went down to his aunt's, somewhere between Jersey City and Bay Head.
An undated photo of CNJ double ended Baldwin #2001 taken at Spring Lake appears on the dust jacket of "The Unique New York and Long Branch" by Don Wood, Joel Rosenbloom and Tom Gallo.
Didn't the CNJ offer service to lakehurst and Toms River? I have a pic of one of their HEP GP-7's on that run.
Lakehurst was on the CNJ Southern Division to Bridegton which included the route of the Blue Comet which turned east to Atlantic City at Winslow Junction. There was a branch from Lakehurst through Toms River to Barnegat.
Well Ashbury park deserves it because they New Jerseyified their beaches. Didn't they like put up a sea wall or something?
If we are talking about other candidates for the title of ghost town, one might look at So. Fallsburg, NY (another stop on the Shortline). I am not in a position to compare it to Asbury Park, but simply comparing So. Fallsburg to it self in, say, the forties is also a real shock. Each time I drive through and stop for a look it seems as though another establishment has closed, the last of which I know of was a great bakery.
Do you drive through South Fallsburg in the summer or in the winter? There's a big difference.
I mostly drive through So. Fallsburg during the summer and fall. The thing that struck me most though was the continuing disappearance of ataple businesses. They did not seem to be closing for a season or temporarily, but permanently.
>>>BTW, if you want to see a REAL ghost town, much better than Port Jervis, just take NJTransit
to Asbury Park. You will be shocked at what you see. <<<
Hey, we have ghost towns right here in the 5 boroughs.
I was down at Rockaway Beach in the B60s a few weeks ago and shot a few scenes for Forgotten. There used to be bungalows down there, but they're all gone now. Row after row of barren streets lead to the boardwalk.
Most towns in the USA don't face an ocean. In NYC we're fortunate to have mile after mile of waterfront on the Atlantic Ocean, Hudson and East Rivers, much of it accessible by mass transit--yet NIMBYs, politics and red tape render most of waterfront properties untenanted and unused. Nobody mentions it much, but it's the shame of NYC.
Paradoxically, the IND serves miles of this barren expanse (granted, the area north of the IND in Rockaway is more populated) yet subway service will probably never reach, or will reach decades in the future, parts of NYC that desperately need it like the east side of Manhattan and arguably southeastern Queens.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sadly, outside of the implementation of casino gambling in the Rockaways, I don't see any quick revival for that area, because of the long commuting distance (with the Lefferts annoyance added) from there via the A train. Casinos would bring their own set of problems, plus from a geogrpahical standpoints, the buildings would probalby be height-limited due to the proximity to JFK Airport, which would cut the area's attractiveness even to Donald Trump or Kirk Kekorian.
[Sadly, outside of the implementation of casino gambling in the Rockaways, I don't see any quick revival for that area....]
Don't count on casino gambling to help, in light of what happened in Atlantic City. The casino developers came in with all kinds of promises, the state gave them all kinds of corporate welfare, and the people of AC who subsidize the casinos are STILL WAITING for some form of economic benefit.
In fact, during the final season of Phil Donahue's talk show, on an episode whose topic was the merits of casino gambling, the then-mayor of AC complained that NO Atlantic City resident had ever held any kind of job in any casino. Even today, the casinos still "redline" by requiring all employees to park at the remote lot on the AC Expressway and use special shuttle buses to get to work (even if they could just take a bus that stops a block away).
With that track record, don't expect NYC casinos to result in either neighborhood revival or jobs for New Yorkers.
New York wouldn't be asking as much as Atlantic City was of casinos -- there the idea was to revive the whole town, while here it would be to do something with an isolated and partially abandoned part of Queens.
That said, there's no doubt all the problems surrounding Atlantic City's casinos (or to be more accurate, right behind the casinos) would no doubt be a problem here. Also, hotels and stores that cater to tourists in Mahattan would be worried about losing business to that area and would surely fight any effort to OK gambling for the Rockaways. But nothing else would bring money to the area (in search of more money, of course) than the casino option.
How about the Casinos in Coney Island also?
That's a little bit more difficult to handle, because Coney Island Creek doesn't provide as good a natural barrier to the rest of Brooklyn as Jamaica Bay does between the Rockaways and the rest of Queens, so the general crime, along with drug and prostitution problems that tend to follow casinos around would be tougher to patrol in the Coney Island area.
It's still do-able, and it would be great to find something to revive the Coney Island area, but it would be tougher logisticly to police than the Rockaways would.
In the early 80's the Disney Organization expressed an interest in aquiring the Coney Island/Astroland/Steepchase Park areas, but I think part of the roadblocks that came up were: (1) Disney wanted a guarrantee by city government that the area(s) would be cleaned up before any deals could be ironed out, and (2) the winter weather considerations would have necessitated an almost totally enclosed theme-park for year-round revenues -- the cost of which far-outweighed the profit margin at that time.
Doug aka BMTman
[In the early 80's the Disney Organization expressed an interest in aquiring the Coney Island/Astroland/Steepchase Park areas, but I think part of the roadblocks that came up were: (1) Disney wanted a guarrantee by city government that the area(s) would be cleaned up before any deals could be ironed out, and (2) the winter weather considerations would have necessitated an almost totally enclosed theme-park for year-round revenues -- the cost of which far-outweighed the profit margin at that time.]
In addition, it would have been too expensive to move Walt's liquid nitrogen tank from Florida.
In addition, it would have been too expensive to move Walt's liquid nitrogen tank from Florida.
Urban Legend.
Assuming he was cryogenically preserved, then it would not be expensive to do any moving. Liquid Nitrogen is cheap and they don't use any refrigeration in the tanks themselves.
I don't know if you posted it for humor or what and it doesn't really matter. I'm sure there are people who believe it's true (and those who believe that there's no such thing as cryogenic preservation).
Most urban legends appear to arise for no apparent reason. In contrast, it's quite easy to see why the frozen-Walt rumors started. Cryogenic preservation was getting a considerable amount of media attention just about the time Disney died in late 1966. The first documented case, in fact, occurred within a few days of his death. Added to this was a nearly complete news blackout surrounding Disney's final illness and death. The company announced that he was undergoing surgery for "an old polo injury," and soon after issued a terse announcement that he had died. No cause of death was given and the funeral arrangements were private and held at an undisclosed time and location. Combine this peculiar secrecy with the contemporaneous interest in cryogenics, and voila! Disney on ice.
I didn't know the story of his death.
And I used to believe it was true, because it isn't implausible.
The story I heard was that Unca Walt died of the Big C. Walt was a smoker, like many of his generation, and I believe the actual cause of death was lung cancer.
Peter, that's a good one. Ya got me laughing it up over here.
(Oops! I almost forgot -- we're not supposed to be having fun here at SubTalk if I recall correctly. I better wipe that smile off my face -- pronto!)
Doug aka BMTman
For one thing, emoticons [ :-) ] aren't used as often as they should.
Jokes and funny comments are accompanied with facial expressions in in person conversations and tone of voice in phone conversations (or in both). No such thing exists on the internet. If someone misconstrues someone's comment and there wasn't an emoticon, it isn't because the rod up his butt has a rod up his butt (appropriate credit to both Jersey Mike and Superintendent Chalmers).
And when someone responds to their own message, that means something else has been added.
[In the early 80's the Disney Organization expressed an interest in aquiring the Coney Island/Astroland/Steepchase Park areas, but I think part of the roadblocks that came up were: (1) Disney wanted a guarrantee by city government that the area(s) would be cleaned up before any deals could be ironed out, and (2) the winter weather considerations would have necessitated an almost totally enclosed theme-park for year-round revenues -- the cost of which far-outweighed the profit margin at that time.]
Leaving aside the frozen-Walt funny stuff for now, it seems to me that the area cleanup probably was the main stumbling block. Year-round operations should not have been a necessity. There are many successful seasonal amusement parks, such as Great Adventure, Busch Gardens Williamsburg, King's Dominion and Cedar Point. I don't see why Disney couldn't have built one in Coney Island if everything else were in order. But if the city couldn't or wouldn't guarantee an area cleanup, then I could very easily see Disney's reluctance to build.
Sounds to me like NYC blew a promising opportunity ... but then again, that happens all the time.
What exactly is meant by cleanup anyway? How would the city go about cleaning up?
Yes, you've said the best thing you can say; AC and the casinos aren't as big a blessing as they want you to believe. Neither has tax revenue from it in Montana or other rural states where it isn't quite Vegas but has gone too far,. Jobs, tax revenue..they say. Yes but like chemical dependency and a lot of other social ills it's costing more than its worth. As for real estate in the Rockaways the Ocean Front Property (George Strait) should be worth its weight in gold. I mean no offense to anyone but New York City acts cosmopolitan but is one of the most narrow minded. Bushwick could be rebuilt as a suburb for another example; yet some areas one can't afford a cubicle.Maybe when the big people get the land for what they want to pay you'll see high price housing all along the beachfront.Hard to believe its sitting idle. Oh well, can't sell the Brooklyn Bridge but how about Ocean Front Property in Arizona? or North Dakota? Best wishes, ed.
[I mean no offense to anyone but New York City acts cosmopolitan but is one of the most narrow minded.]
Heh heh, that's exactly my observation too. Note to NYC residents: contrary to what you have been brainwashed, er, trained to believe, the world does NOT end at the Hudson River. Thank you.
[Note to NYC residents:...the world does NOT end at the Hudson River.]
You're preaching to the converted - nobody in this group said that the world ended at the Hudson. That attitude is reserved for the Manhattan-centric yuppie types who insist on paying $3,000+ per month for a one-bedroom hovel with a view of someone else's bathroom. (For them, the world is bounded by the Hudson River, the East River, the Harbor, and 96th Street.)
As for revitializing the Rockaways, keep in mind that the entire Rockaway peninsula used to be a summer retreat (back when the LIRR provided the only train service). The demographics have changed gradually over the decades, and introducing casinos won't restore the area to its former glory - at least not all at once, and certainly not if New Yorkers are banned from working in them.
Why would New Yorkers Be banned from Working in Casinos. Local Residents are not banned in Mississippi or Nevada Casinos. The biggest lies are the 2 Indian Casinos in Conn, both said they were owned by the desendents of Indian Tribes that were extint by the Revolution War.
The internet might take a huge bite out of the casino gambling business. Lots of people to without wrecking their lives, but casinos make their big bucks off people who start out with a good bit of money and end up losing their homes and destroying their families. The internet will collect those people.
If we have gambling in New York, it should at least be cash only.
how else to you play in a casino. cash for chips. Yes they have atms and credit card advance, put it always comes to cash. If they played for cash only on the tables, there would be a severe shortage of money in the rest of the country
Why IS it sitting idle? I know that the projects built in the area didn't do it any favors, and commuting by mass-transit is a problem, but considering how built up Nassau county is nearby, you'd think this would be a great place to build one- and two-family homes.
In fact, during the final season of Phil Donahue's talk show, on an episode whose topic was the
merits of casino gambling, the then-mayor of AC complained that NO Atlantic City resident had
ever held any kind of job in any casino. Even today, the casinos still "redline" by requiring all
employees to park at the remote lot on the AC Expressway and use special shuttle buses to get to
work (even if they could just take a bus that stops a block away).
Are you saying that employees without cars can't just report to the casinos on foot or by local transit? I figured those lots on the A.C. Expressway were to give employees who choose to arrive by car a free (or cheap) place to park. What possible justification can there be if this is not the case? And how about some local entrepreneur setting up commuter vans to shuttle local people out to the lots, where they can be brought back in by the casinos? The irony (and overall waste) of that should make a catchy news item. (And if the casinos refused permission for the vans to stop in "their" lots, so should that fact.) Where do most casino employees live, if not in A.C.?
[Are you saying that employees without cars can't just report to the casinos on foot or by local transit?]
Precisely. The casinos don't allow walk-ins at their employee entrances; employees MUST report to the remote lot (in their own cars or by carpool) and take their respective hotels' employee shuttles.
-----
[What possible justification can there be....?]
To discourage A.C. residents from working at the casinos, by forcing them to go outside the city and double back.
-----
[And how about some local entrepreneur setting up commuter vans to shuttle people out to the lots, where they can be brought back in by the casinos?]
A good idea, if there's a demonstrated need (and a willing carrier) from a particular neighborhood. At least one NJT bus route out of the A.C. bus terminal stops at the lot for that very reason.
-----
[Where do most casino employees live, if not in A.C?]
Any location without an A.C. zip code.
I'm skeptical.
My daughter worked at Caesars (hotel, not casino) before she got her MSW and she joined many other employees on the NJT Philly-A.C. train.
[[Are you saying that employees without cars can't just report to the casinos on foot or by local transit?]
[Precisely. The casinos don't allow walk-ins at their employee entrances; employees MUST report to the remote lot (in their own cars or by carpool) and take their respective hotels' employee shuttles.]
I don't know where you got that information, but it sounds fishy to me. It's not as if Atlantic City has one monolithic casino operator whose word applies everywhere. There are several highly competitive companies involved, and if for some reason one of them imposed this policy, there's no reason to believe that the others automatically would follow suit. Moreover, the casino operators aren't stupid. They know full well that a high percentage of the people who live within walking distance of the casinos are minorities. Imposing no-walk ins policies would be opening themselves up to discrimination lawsuits. And if there's one thing the casino operators don't want, it's bad publicity.
"They know full well that a high percentage of the people who live within walking distance of the casinos are minorities. Imposing no-walk ins policies would be opening themselves up to discrimination lawsuits. And if there's one thing the casino operators don't want, it's bad publicity."
The allegation makes no sense on several levels. Why would the casinos exclude Atlantic City residents as such? Not to exclude minorities, for the reason you stated that it would open them up to major lawsuits, but also because minorities could just as likely come from OUTSIDE Atlantic City as within it -- as mentioned by another poster, the NJT train connecting metro Philadelphia (Camden) and Atlantic City is used by casino workers.
Would the casinos go out of their way to hire city residents, absent a requirement to do so as a condition of getting a license? Probably not, but that's a long way from working hard to intentionally exlcude city residents.
I ran this past my daughter, who used to work in HR at Caesars in A.C. This is her response, verbatim:
"There is great incentive among the casinos to hire Atlantic City
residents. There have also been millions of casino dollars poured into the revitalization of the city, and some areas have been entirely rehabilitated. The unfortunate thing about Atlantic City is that it is mostly poor, and was long before legalized gambling.
About the shuttle bus thing...no casino employees are allowed to park
in town - must leave all of the parking for the customers. Most people who live in Atlantic City take the jitney or bus to work. Actually, most people who live in Atlantic City don't have a car.
I don't know where your friend got his information, but it is most
definitely incorrect. The casinos are very proud of the money they've
contributed to Atlantic City, and every effort is made to hire cuty
residents. But since Atlantic City is like a big Kensington, qualified applicants are hard to find."
(Kensington is a poor section of Philly, from which my mother's family moved to Jersey in 1920; it was working class then)
My brain was turned off the first time I read this post. It's a joke. Employment redlining! I suspect Jersey Mike has resumed posting jokes over a different handle.
Kevin, I recall from a few years ago that there was some plan by a Canadian developer to do something with that barren stretch in Far Rock/Averene (sp?) area. As of late I have not heard what the outcome was. I believe the plan called for low-to-moderate income housing + the usual strip-mall provision, with one or two major chains as 'anchors'.
Only time will tell.
Doug aka BMTman
[I recall from a few years ago that there was some plan by a Canadian developer to do something with that barren stretch in Far Rock/Averene (sp?) area. As of late I have not heard what the outcome was. I believe the plan called for low-to-moderate income housing + the usual
strip-mall provision, with one or two major chains as 'anchors'.]
In terms of actual construction work, it's probably the surface-level equivalent of the Second Avenue subway.
Considering the waterfront location of the Rockaways, I can't see why people can't aim for high income housing.
Although to get to high income, you need to go through the middle class first.
Port Jervis was not really consider a "ghost town" because train service never ended to the town. If fact, that town was served by the Buffalo line of the old Pen Central I believe and was actually part of that large commuter line line that extended up past Port Jervis. When bankrupcy hit Pen Central, service beyond the town was terminated. Many towns along the commuter line have changed alot since then. For example, Goshen, NY was served by that commuter line until they decided to reroute service to another area a couple of years ago. Goshen did not die, but changed as well into another bedroom community. Most of downtown areas in many communities across NY have had to reconfigure themselves in order to survive the new shopping centers that have sprung up in the last 20 years. Maybe Jen C. was there at a time when the economy was at its lowest and now things might have changed since then.
This is just idle curiosity on my part.
Are there any busses between southern and western Staten Island and adjoining Middlesex and Union County communities such as Perth Amboy, or Elizabeth--or for that matter between North Central Staten Island and Bayone-Jersey City?
If not, then Staten Island (especially the southern end) is one isolated place, transit-wise.
:)Andrew
There are 3 routes from SI to NJ, all run by Coach USA. The 55S uns from Port Richmond to Bayonne, and the 122 and 144 go from Forest Ave and Richmond Ave, respectively, to Jersey City.
There are no routes to Elizabeth or Perth Amboy.
-Hank
Where does one get schedules for those services (other than on the bus)?
I asked for it a while ago. I wanted to plan a circular trip for when the HBLR opened.
Instead I used a car.
So am I right in assuming that Southern Staten Island is essentially an isolated place in terms of public transit? I mean, if nothing runs over the Outerbridge Crossing, then there's really nowhere to go but up.
I suppose I'd say it's a shame for Staten Island residents, but I suspect that few of them really mind. The motto for Staten Island and New Jersey seems to be the same as throughout the suburbs: "Get a car."
Indeed it is.
-Hank
Yesterday I was getting to my train at 34th S.t station. In the mezzanine area were about 20 college ages kids. The guys were all dressed in black suit, white shirt and tie and the girls were wearing nice dresses, mostly black. They were all having the darndest time trying to figure how to use and pay for the MFL subway. After waiting in line for a bit I finally got through amd once on the platform I asked what they were. Well they were College republicans in town for their own convention. I was wearing sandals and my Governor's School for the Environment T-shirt with a dolphin on it so I knew that that conversation wasn't going anywhere so I just went up to grab the RFW. All the Republicans took the middle cars so I assume that none of them were railfans. I got off at 15th to transfer to the BSL, but sadly the Republicans did not do the same so I couldn't observe their antics further. Wish I had my camera. They were so over dressed for the MFL.
And what was their attitude toward your appearance? Were those nasty rich Republican geeks judgmental vis a vis appearance? For shame!
See you tomorrow at Market East. I'll be wearing the tux.
Bob
So I have heard that the BWAY express is back. But for how long will it stay around?
The original posting on the subject said there will be four Q expresses daily until September.
The track work (replacement of the interlocking north of 6th Ave's 47th 50th St. Station) is going on every weekend for the month of August (See the Weekend G.O. for F/E/R trains) since this requires trains to operate at reduced speed through the area and during the weekday rush hours this is causing a delay where the Q merges with B/D they are sending 4 Q's down Broadway.
I assume until this work is done you will have a Broadway express. Right now the entire area is has work light strung up and the 3rd Rail is uncovered in most of the area.
I'll be taking the Q from 21st Tonight (leave work at 4pm, I have to walk from Queens Plaza to 21st St) in the hopes of catching a Broadway Express for a headend run. What a way to start the weekend.
Well don't get too used to it. There's yet ANOTHER General Order coming. Begining (tonight) Friday at midnight and continuing for two weeks 24 hours a day 21st. SHUTTLE SERVICE RETURNS! All Q service will operate to 57/6 for the duration. So there will be no Broadway Express. It wasn't fun anyway. We were loosing 18 minutes in the process and it cost me any break at all at Brighton Beach.
From Prince Street to DeKalb was a long conga line.
I noticed the Broadway Express always got low priority at Canal. The train I was on had to wait for the N we passed at 34th st. to go in first. The T/O raised hell over the radio about being held there every time for no reason (and thus missing his break), giving them a few choice words about how they run the railroad, but you can't fight City Hall tower...
When they ran the midday Q Broadway express service diversion during 1995, service was very smooth and seemless. I assume the schedule was carefully crafted to avoid bottlenecks south of Prince.
The thing is, there weren't bottlenecks. It was a clear track, people appeared to have been waiting 10+ mintues for that N we passed at 34th, and they still refused to let us through. The only good that came out of that is that lower Manhattanites all crowded on the N, leaving very few people on the platforms to do the old "If I don't know what it is, I hold the doors until I figure it out" trick.
What trains will they be using on the Queensbridge shuttle?
It would probably be 60' cars, since that's what they did last time, because they only ran 8 car trains (no need for more). R-32s were the previous car of choice, but we'll all find out tomorrow (or possibly Monday, they still might yank R68As from the B for the weekend, but they will be required for mainline service on Monday).
Oh good! That means I can get a front window view of the 63rd street tunnel from a Broadway line train. I could get a different vantage point of the 63rd street line. Never been through 63rd street on a train originating on the Broadway line before.
I rode the 1705 from Queensbridge yesterday, and after Union Square it did take FOREVER. There were delays on the local track, so when we were at the crossover north of Canal, we waited for an N (running "express") to pass us first. Then the T/O called on the radio entering City Hall, and then left the train for about seven minutes. He used the word "comfort" on the radio so I can only assume what was going on, as the entire BMT backed up behind us. All greens after that, though! The platform signs at DeKalb read 5:50pm when we pulled in -- 45 minutes!
As always, the looks of confusion on the platform are worth the price of admission.
I kept on wishing we could some how sneak over the south side of the bridge!
The south side has about 3 steel beams going directly across the 2 tracks about 2' above the third rail, 2 near the Brooklyn portal and 1 about 500' west. No trains going there for a while.
Baaaah! You're gonna let a little things like solid steel beams stop ya? Get a running start.
Henry,
I see those steel beams every day. What are they for?
JDL
I was on the Q train today for quite a while (got on at 21st - Queensbridge at 6:30, left Ocean Pkwy at 9:45pm) as part of a spur of the moment marathon railfanning session from 10am - 10:30pm.
The Q I rode out from 21st Street was given the wrong lineup at Prospect Park. The T/O realized it and called the tower. The tower insisted that he take the lineup anyway, so we made only express stops running on the Coney Island-bound local track. What a waste, with a D right in front of us. When we got to Brighton Beach, we pulled in on the same local track (and the Q behind us actually got in before us), so it took 2 T/Os to do a reverse move into the elevated yard to put the train back on the "right track" for its next trip to Queens.
I then decided I was going to take the next Q back to Pacific Street and try to catch one of the last M trains for the evening. As a result of the wrong lineup and associated move, the next Q to leave Brighton Beach for 21st Street was late. To make up the schedule, the T/O was informed to stop at Sheepshead Bay, and then the next stop would be Church Ave! Oh boy! Super-express on the Brighton Line with a slant-40, and I had my camcorder yet! What a treat!
Well it wasn't long before the Q train's designated bum (every train has one) realized that he would get to Church Ave much sooner than expected, and he decided to join me in the front and become an "instant railfan" for the battery run. "Gotta keep a schedule", he shouts. Then to make small talk, he "volunteers" to me that he just got out of jail to do community service and asked me if I would have stayed in jail for a full sentence or if I would have gone for community service. I politely replied that I have no experience in this area. While he was "nice" and I didn't feel threatened, his use of language forced me to turn off the camcorder, so while I experienced this magnificent battery run, I was not able to record it. Cest la vie.
But there's always a silver lining. Deciding not to catch the M train, I got off at Prospect Park and took the next Q back to Brighton Beach at dusk, and then went to Ocean Pkwy to witness all the Q trains between 8:30pm and 10pm being sent to CI yard for the weekend. Some great nightime views of the slant-40s climbing the grade to West 8th St. I was also able to take in fireworks at Coney Island as a backdrop. Then it was off to Nathan's for a late dinner. A fine way to end a great day of railfanning.
I also noticed that at Dekalb Ave, heading towards Coney Island, there is still a 3-car marker sign hanging. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else. (I mean, it's been over 30 years since the AB standards last plied this route!)
Finally, after my lunch stop at Lefferts Blvd & Liberty Ave (the end of the "A" train, and yes, I was all over the place Friday), I noticed that at the intersection of Liberty Ave and 118th St, there is still a red over green traffic light (no yellow signal). I thought they were all gone by now.
--Mark
AFAIK, there are still red-over-green traffic signals in the Rockaways. The red lights have even been replaced with LEDs! See this. (Warning: There are lots of images on that page, and I've been informed that some browsers don't like that. If yours is among them, go here instead and select the "twolights.jpg" link instead -- or just go to http://www.crosswinds.net/~grenbrgr/roads/twolights.jpg. Unfortunately, since it's on Crosswinds, I can't link directly to it here.)
>>...he was "nice" and I didn't feel threatened,
>> his use of language forced me to turn off the camcorder..
Whynot just keep on taping as norm, and pluck out the
audio tracks (keeping the video tracks) in
duplication or (in my case) transfer-to-vhs mode??
I didn't want to be bothered with editing it later.
--Mark
is it True that LIRR and MNRR require College to become a Conductor or Engineer?
Also, for LIRR Can I start as a Usher?
At least with the title of assistant conductor, they require some college and prior experience handling cash.
NOTE: After experiancing some fallout from my fake news articles, I like George W. will now slip slide back to the middle and prersent some traditional humour that the whole family can enjoy.
I was thinking what some of the events at the 2000 Subway games being held in Sidney would be. I have come up with the following:
Turnstyle Jump: Scored on both technical and artistic elements.
Moving Train Hop: Runners run to board a moving train. Fastest train speed at time of entry wins.
3rd Rail Hurtle: Runners must run on simulated subway tunnel and jump over 3rd rails set at intervals.
Make the Connection: Trains move about the city. Entrants must leave the train and make a connection w/ another train. runers who don't make it are cut. Each available time decreases between each new round.
Token Toss: Entrants will try to toss a token in the slot from 5 feet away. Highest % wins.
Can you guys think od some others?
No 3rd Rail in Sydney, Canatary so make it a pole vault, and no tokens they use like the metro card, but for 2 hrs, daily, weekly, monthly and even yearly.
Well some of the events would occur on sets built in large open areas or in special built venues.
Bundje jumping from the west 8 st station.
Marathon from Stillwell ave along the brighton line to Prospect park.
Weight lifting the 3rd rail.
Laying the track.
Subway car repair.
Track & field at the Coney island yard.
Draging 1 subway car from Ocean parkway to brighton beach.
3rd rail shoe throwing.
Train race along the sea beach line.
Pole vault over the EL structure.
Metro card swipping marathon.
Throw the Metro card into the MTA Hat.
3rd rail show bowling.
3rd rail shoe golf at Coney island yard.
Subway map drawing.
Yesterday I boraded a PATCO train at 15/16th and got the railfan window. Because of the convention they were running 6 bangers all day and the 1st car was pretty lo density (3 people). Well we set off, but the lead car had a terrible shake to it and the driver was having to manualize the train. The problem was a very flat wheel in the last truck on the first car. On the 40mph bridge the up and down shaking got so bad he had to keep the train about 30 and called Center to report the problem. The train squealed on the slightest curve and on the hi speed section everything in the car was rattling loudly. I went back to the rear of the car and stoof over the defective boggie. It was quite a ride. But seriously, at times I thought that the train was going to derail the shaking got so bad. It was car #215 an old Budd built car.
hey mike... did the train operator tell you to go and stand over the truck with the bad wheel?... i was wondering if he recognized that maybe you had the kind of vibes that would offset the shaking coming from the truck?... or more probably you seem about as shaky as the bad truck...
no, the shaking of jersey and the truck would cancel each other out thus smoothing the ride for the other three passengers
Ok, I'll see you guys tomorrow for the bug subtalk trip. I'll be waiting in the Reading bound Market East platform with a cardboard "Subtalk" sign. I'll bring my scanner and my cheapo camera cause I mainly want to take pictures of signals. I'll be on the platform from 9;45 untill the R7 from Trenton arrives. Does anyone know what to do in the NJT/SEPTA connection in trenton is missed? I'd say call a pay phone if I knew the number.
Meet the next R7 from Trenton and see whether any SubTalkers get off.
Well, I just realized I cannot go tomorrow. I post this after several minutes of cursing at my stupidity of procrastinating the week's chores (laundry, groceries, sheet laundry, wash windows, cut ivy off windows, sweep/mop/wax floors, clean bathroom and kitchen). What was supposed to be spread out over several days I must do in one weekend, since a guest might be coming and the apartment must be in good shape and well stocked.
I'm working all day, enjoy yerselfs
to any current or former t/o's out there; i'm curious about the working conditions--how many hours do you typically work per day/week, is there ongoing training throughout your career, which shifts are best, what is the strangest thing that's ever happened to you on the job?
On the night of Saturday July 29th, the N trains were not running for at least 30 minutes, and maybe closer to an hour. This was around 11:00 PM. I was at 49th street, but also talked to people down at Canal and they saw no trains either. Only the express R trains were running. Does anybody know what was wrong?
A co-worker claims that the Lex local backs up behind the last stop at Brooklyn Bridge during rush hour. It also arrives mostly empty, while the Lex Express is packed, since few people are traveling to the Civic Center relative to points south.
Would it make sense to extend the local tracks west, say of Vesey, to a more efficient terminal near the WTC? You'd get more people on the local and off the express that way, and turnaround would be reduced. Note that on the west side, the local terminates after serving all of Lower Manhattan.
Does anybody with the inside scoop know if there will a 2000 Subways Guide printed this year? The latest one I have is the 98 edition.
They have a subways guide? What's in it? Where can I get one?
That's the...
running on...
's
questions.
same here??
what exactly happened wednesday night in terms of derailments and fires?
I thought there were only two fires in downtown Brooklyn, resulting in one train having to back to Bowling Green...
Does anybody knows what co,build the L.A. red line subway cars,and
where can i get the rolling stock data.
BREDA and you can use their web site
yes BB but what IS there website? is that your final answer?
Back on the road! I saw it going the other way at Queens Plaza on the E, had to run up, over, down, and through 8 cars, but got to it. New floor, same cracked window and dented cab door. 3731 had a rare moment in the sun, as it was the head motor for the first time I've seen in ages (usually its 3730).
I would estimate there are about 20 R32's with the new black floor released for service.
I've ridden the E line every afternoon for a month and I've never seen one of them. Bad luck, I suppose.
Hello Everybody,
Pictures of the Columbus Circle Tower, Jay St. Tower (A video of Jay St. as well), 34th St. BMT Tower, P.S. 248 NYCT-RTO Training Center and the abandonded lower level of the BMT City Hall station have all been added to my website www.zdeno.com . In addition to all of this, I also have put many more R68, R32, R38, and R46 pictures up. I also took some pictures of the LED signals on the Sea Beach line which I will put on the site next week.
Hope to see many of you at Paul's tomorrow
Enjoy,
Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Does anyone have any specific information about this never-purchased subway/el car? How far did the plans get before the city torpedoed the concept?
I wrote a letter to TA to get some subway maps. I received several copies of the May 2000 edition of the Map today. I am surprised that they are multi-lingual editions.
I am wondering how many editions the May 2000 edition has. Multi-lingual edition or both multi-lingual and original edition?
Chaohwa
How many did they send you? I need to get some - my last copy of The Map is fomr 98, when 57/6 was under renovation and they were running special S trains through the 63rds
All this month that map is 100% accurate.
Need SIR timetables, MTA NYC Transit subway or bus maps, or express or local bus timetables, please send a self-addressed, stamped envelope ($.55 for The MAP, $.33 for everything else, one stamp per item requested) to:
MTA New York City Transit
Customer Assistance
370 Jay Street, Room 712K
Brooklyn, New York 11201
Please indicate what you want.
I requested 4 maps. So I send a self-addressed stamped envelope to TA to get these maps.
Chaohwa
At one time a few years back I was able to download the Map from this site on Adobe pdf format. Is it still available on this site or a different site?
No, you were never able to download the official map or anything in pdf format from www.nycsubway.org.
Try the official site. www.mta.nyc.ny.us.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave
After I went to NYC this morning, I got the answer.
The answer is they have both versions.
Chaohwa
I got to see one of those orange CSX diesels here today at fairly close range.
It was numbered 9718, and appeared to me to be a GP-40! When this was discussed about a month ago, there were comments that it might have been a GE U-23.
Neatly painted under the number on the cab side were the words "Maintenance of Way".
The paint job seemed to be a good one, and other than being orange, did not look bad. The lettering seemed to be in black.
I must be getting old in that I find it hard to believe that GP-40's have been relegated to work train service.
It was numbered 9718, and appeared to me to be a GP-40! When this was discussed about a month ago, there were comments that it might have been a GE U-23.
The original units in work train service were B23-7 units, but that was several years ago. I'm not surprised to see newer power in the orange scheme now, especially if it's an unmodified (non Dash 2) Geep.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back when the SD-45 was the new kid on the block I really knew my diesels. I don't remember them as well anymore.
This may have been a GP-40-2 and I can't tell the difference.
I thought it was a GP-40, but I am sure that it was a GM diesel and not a GE.
GP40 production ended back in 1971, 29 years ago (Dash 2 started Jan 72). So what is wrong with a 30 year old Geep on MofW service?
There is nothing wrong with it at all!
I just have a problem accepting the fact that the diesel is old enough to be in M of W service. I had to give up active railfanning about four years after it was built, and still think of it being a new model.
I know what you mean Karl; I still thought of the redbirds thruthe R42 etc asthe new stuff; likewise the Sd40's (the Low-V, GG1, AB etc of dieseldom) were still the new stuff. When the computerized loco's came out such as C44-9w I woke up. (for a while) now the R142 and replacement of the redbirds [most of them] is waking me up for keeps. Wish life went as slow when you get older as it does during grade school years!
Ed,
I'm sorry but I could not get on yesterday.
I saw CSX 9718 again yesterday morning, still setting in the same exact spot. It has now been setting there at least five days. I am assuming that the unit must be shut down because I can't believe that it would be idling for five days. It is coupled to what appears to be a work car, and they are the only pieces of equipment at the west end of a very long otherwise unoccupied siding.
CSX must really be heavy on motive power to be able to leave that unit unused this length of time, even if a GP-40 is considered an antique by today's standards.
Find a picture of your GP40 at http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/GP40/9718CSX-o.jpg.
Evan,
Thanks for the picture! I am surprised to see that it looks like it is the leading unit in a regular lash-up with Conrail, or former Conrail power.
I tried to get a picture of it myself yesterday, but I could not get my wife's camera to work.
The unit sat just east of town all weekend, about 100 feet north of US 30. I think it was shut down because I could not hear it idling, but perhaps that was because of the noise of highway traffic on US 30.
I was thinking of visiting several shopping malls in New Jersey and Westchester county.
Which malls are easiest to get to by rail or bus transit and how?
Some malls I'm interested in visiting are the Westchester, Garden State Plaza, and the Mall at Short Hills.
Rockaway Townsquare Mall,Lakeland 80,(How I wish the Q ran there crusing along the Brighton-Broadway Express and Interstate 80)MCM 10 from MidTOWN DIRECT at Dover Fare $1.00. Lakeland from PABT more than Train. Livingston Mall,NJT 70,73 from Newark Penn,MCM 3 from MidTOWN DIRECT(How I wish the Slant L trains ran there)Chatham or Summit(Summit 70 only). MCM 3 also serves Short Hills Mall(How I wish for Slant L trains). Willowbrook Mall,NJT to Mountain View MCM 1 too Willowbrook,NJT 194 from PABT.
short hills mall is a healthy walk from njt short hills or summit train stations. taxis are generally available at summit (only).
Taxis-NO WAY,Dover Taxi is charging .25 more for local and $1 for Airport due to gas prices.
I think Short Hills Mall runs busses from the Port Authority Terminal on weekends to the mall.
Newport Mall is at the Pavonia Avenue station on the PATH Train.
The Westchester is all the way accross town from the White Plains Metro-North station. There may be Bee-Line routes serving it, though.
I know that in Nassau County (where I grew up) the busses (MTA Long Island Bus, then the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority) serve the malls above anything else except the railroad stations.
For what it's worth (not that you asked), Roosevelt Field is a long walk from Carle Place or Mineola LIRR stations (but there are busses from the latter), the Sunrise Mall is quite a walk from Massapequa Park. HOWEVER the Broadway Mall is only a few blocks from the Hicksville LIRR station.
:)Andrew
Lack of transit access to Malls has become an issue in many parts of the country. Malls tend to discourage transit access because they don't want low income and/or minority customers, the principle transit users in most of the U.S. They want employees, but prefer private vans, so access is limited to those with a job, and only during times when they are working.
The Sunrise Mall in Valley Stream is accessible by NYCT bus, and attracts many customers from Southeast Queens. But not customers from the rest of Nassau County.
The Sunrise Mall is in Massapequa. The mall in Valley Stream (also on Sunrise Highway) is the Green Acres Mall.
Right, Green Acres Mall. Can't keep those malls straight.
Green Acres has bad bus service from Long Islad Bus though. Only N1,2,3 routes serve the mall and these routes run on long headways. The N4 does not stop there.
Green Acres used to get people from Nassau but now it's mostly people from the minority areas of southeast Queens, and as you can guess, the mall is not as good as it used to be.
What are you saying.? Just because minorities use
the mall it doesnt make it a bad place.So where
are the minorities of Queens and Brooklyn supposed
to shop?
I'm not saying minorities themselves are to blame for the mall's shape, but rather the major anchor stores and chains in the mall.
Last time I was there, the Macy's (used to be an A&S) has not been remodeled for years, and was a mess, one of the worst Macy's I have ever seen. JC Penney and Stern's are also small, and aren't as nice as stores in malls like Roosevelt Field and Sunrise mall. Also Sears is small as well. Stern's and Macy's especially have been remodeling stores. Stern's remodeled Roosevelt Field and the Smith Haven store. Macy's has remodeled most of it's stores, like the ones in Roosevelt Field, Walt Whitman, Smith Haven, and now Staten Island. JCPenney also spruced up it's stores a few years ago, but not Green Acres. Also the Stern's in Flushing is also pretty bad.
Big chains just don't treat their stores in or near NYC (especially Queens) as good as suburban stores. I guess this also explains why shopping malls just aren't working too well in many parts of the city.
Big chains are mostly only interested in coming to Manhattan (midtown) to do business and have some sort of "thing" against minority neighborhoods. I'm not the one who's racist, I was just merely stating that Green Acres Mall could be better if the chains put more $$ into stores in minority areas. If anything chains like Macy's, as well as
Kohl's, are racist against urban multi-cultural settings, like Flushing for example. There's alot of empty spaces in Flushing, it's a busy place with great transit access, so why aren't the big chains gobbling space up there?
[Big chains just don't treat their stores in or near NYC (especially Queens) as good as suburban stores. I guess this also explains
why shopping malls just aren't working too well in many parts of the city.
Big chains are mostly only interested in coming to Manhattan (midtown) to do business and have some sort of "thing" against minority neighborhoods. I'm not the one who's racist, I was just merely stating that Green Acres Mall could be better if the chains put more $$ into stores in minority areas. If anything chains like Macy's, as well as
Kohl's, are racist against urban multi-cultural settings, like Flushing for example. There's alot of empty spaces in Flushing, it's a
busy place with great transit access, so why aren't the big chains gobbling space up there?]
I've never been in the Green Acres Mall, but based on what I've seen from the train it doesn't look to be in bad shape. The former Caldor's site was converted into a Target soon after Caldor's failed, and a large Circuit City has just been built. Granted, these are on the outside of the mall, but I don't see how the inside could be that much worse.
How's Garden State Plaza with bus access? I looked up bus routes on NJT and found the #163 that goes from Port Authority terminal in NYC to Garden State Plaza in New Jersey. About how long is the ride and how much does it cost?
#163 local - about 50 minutes
#163 express - about 40 minutes
Express trips and most local trips do not go into the parking lot, but stop on Passaic Street within easy walking distance of the mall.
Fare is $3.25
You can also take the #175 from the uptown (GW Bridge) terminal to the mall, or the #171 to the GS Plaza bus stop on Route 4.
Fare is $2.55 for those and the travel times are around 30-40 minutes.
Since it will be hot again tomorrow I am taking the #163 from PA bus term to Garden State Plaza, looks like it'll be too hot to do any subway railfanning, once it's above 90 in the city you can faint down there.
Rather go on an interesting trip through NJ and to a mall I've never been to before. Hopefully there will be a break in this weather so I can check out the 34th street-Queensbridge shuttle soon.
Well it's cloudy outside and instead I will be railfanning the subways. Will keep an eye out for R142, however I'm doubtful because of the problems they are having with them.
Malls may be interesting, but nothing beats riding the subway!
Green Acres Mall In Valley Stream Is Accessable From E/J/Z & LIRR At Parsons/Archer, Jamaica Station then Q5 Or Q85 Buses To Green Acres Mall, Mall Also Served By N1, N2 & N3 Buses.
Queens Center Mall Queens Blvd At Woodhaven Blvd, Rego Park
G Or R Trains To Woodhaven Blvd Station Or Q11, Q29, Q38, Q53, Q59, Q60 & Q88 Buses.
Kings Plaza Mall & Marina Flatbush Avenue At Avenue U Brooklyn
(I belive the only mall in US where you can Buy Or Rent A Boat And Also Park The boat while Shopping.)
#2 Or #5 trains to Brooklyn College/Flatbush Ave Station Then Q35 Or B41 To Kings Plaza, Mall Also Served By B2, B3, B9, B46 & B78 Buses
The fastest way to Kings Plaza is via the Q train and the B2.
As for the B41, half the busses go to Bergen Beach. Those are the WRONG busses, if one is to take the B41 to the mall, one is to look at the front (or side) sign and make sure it says Kings Plaza, not Bergen Beach.
When the weekly Metrocard just came out, I bought one and used it mercilessly during its valid period. When it expired, I was so used to using that card other than my main one, that I accidentally put it up for refill at $20. I realized my mistake a week later, when my mother and I were entering at Jay st., and after she went through it read "JUST USED." The token clerk said I could not transfer the balance to another card, and I would have to use it up. I bought a token and entered. A week after that, The card ran down to $1. I tried to add $.50 to it so I could get a final use, but they wouldn't let me. So, the questions:
1. When were clerks instructed to check for unlimeted ride cards before refilling?
2. Why can I not do this now? It was nice having the last time I used the card show up on the reader, so I could check my transfer status. Plus, I could lend out the card and be sure the borrower would not swipe his friends in.
3. Why can't the regular people be able to have time and cash on their card like the disabled people can?
This is a feature of the proposed refill machines I heard from the MVM helper at Union Square on a Saturday in October when the MVMs opened there.
Maybe they're holding the feature until then so that people actually have reason to use the new machines (like the fun pass only in MVM thing). Or it could be my theory that they needed to change card programming.
The software used in the booth automatically checks the card when we insert the cvard to add money.
A customer walks up and asks tyo add $15 to their card. We take their card and money and select Add value from out farecard menu. We then insert ther card into our computer. If it is an unlimited the scrteen will tell us it is an unlimited and will not allow an add value. We then tell the customer- "I'm sorry, this is an unlimited card. We are not allowed to add money to an unlimited card. I have to give you a new card."
A prior version of the software would allow adds, but that version is no longer in use.
As to why we cant combine time and money- All they tell us is "Eventually"
We then tell the customer- "I'm sorry, this is an unlimited
card. We are not allowed to add money to an unlimited card. I have to give you a new card."
LOL!!
subway-buff,
I am encouraged to hear that you actually speak to us, the customers, this politely. I wish you worked at my token booth. I must say that I've found MVMs a blessing because they do their jobs without any attitude, and I always get at "thank you"! However, I must commend you. Keep up the good work! Maybe Customer Service is what will prove all those "...will cost token-booth clerks their jobs" stickers wrong. After all, an MVM can't smile, feel pride in its work, or give directions to visitors, now, can it? :o)
Thank you! That is precisely the reason we are noty being replaced by MVMs. We will be there for our customers in case of emergency, travel assistance, MVM assistance, etc.
And that is why I pencil in "Not" on those stickers.
08/04/2000
Since SubTalk will be celebrating it's tomorrow, I thought it would be nice to celebrate mine today. Unfortunately, I gotta work today. I was hoping to journey to the Newkirk Ave. station on the Brighton Line and stand at the north end of the southbound platform. I would hold a plate with a Hostess Twinkie with a lit birthday candle while making a wish as a train of R-68's on the (D)would speed past and blow the candle out.
However, I am not sure of the TA's rules governing an exposed Twinkie and birthday candle! Oh well, there's always next year when I turn 50!
"Happy birthday to me...riding the old BMT...I wish there were Standards....Happy birthday to me"
Bill "OLDkirk"
hey happy birthday bill on your 48th birthday... now everyone knows the kind of math tutor i am...
it's a good thing you said that you would stand on the north end of the southbound platform at newkirk... if you stood on the south end of the southbound platform, a pigeon might help put out the candle... i don't know about conditions on the north end of the northbound platform or the south end of the northbound platform...
again, happy birthday, and let me know if you can make it over tomorrow... i'll have a package of twinkies for you...
Happy Birthday, Bill!
Come by heypaul's tomorrow (see "Upcoming Events" for details) and we'll do a belated celebration.
Doug aka BMTman
[I would hold a plate with a Hostess Twinkie with a lit birthday candle while making a wish as a train of R-68's on the (D)would
speed past and blow the candle out.]
Hippos blowing out a candle with their speed? Hahahahahaha!
08/05/2000
"Hippos blowing out a candle with their speed? Hahahahahaha! "
Hey Pete, have faith man! If an R-68 can blow out that candle, then who knows.....a hairpiece? Then we know we have progressed!
Bill "Newkirk"
Ever hear of the Hippo Hurricane Howler? Not that the R-68s actually have it.:-)
Don't feel to bad, Bill, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY (a few days late)
I get my turn on August 19. It'll be 46 for me.
wayne
the south end of the southbounnd platform at newkirk is pretty bad....
the voorheis ave entrance at sheepshead bay, outside of fare control is pretty disgusting...
one of the levels at west 8th in coney island ranks pretty rank..
any other bad spots in the system?... perhaps if time allows, after we submit to doug's obsession with the franklin ave. shuttle, we might check out some of the worst of the pigeon dropping sites on the system and issue a special report on the matter to the inspector general... this problem should be looked into and cleaned up...
All the pigeon droppings throughout the system should be gathered and delivered to the desk of a high-ranking MTA official just for effect (unfortunately the desk would collapse under the sheer weight of the gross -- yes that's GROSS -- tonage of bird do-do).
BTW, the unused portions of Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line are WAAAAY up there in terms of being the #1 pigeon-poop-arena. I saw a mound of bird-turd that was at least two feet high (I'm not kidding -- I had witnessses from the Canarsie Tour back in May).
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that 2 foot high pile was pretty disgusting.
Peace,
ANDEE
How do you know it wasn't bat gaunno?
In Manhattan, there is a canopy over the 58th/8th Avenue entrance to the IND 59th Street station which is the home to what must be HUNDREDS of these putrid creatures, and it is positively and utterly FILTHY and DISGUSTING beyond all description. As passengers use the stairs and escalators into and out of the station, these nasty birds can be found lined up along a railing above, pooping away. It's a health hazard.
The Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue station's home to quite a flock, and a number of surfaces in and around the station are rather crusty. Back on July 9, I saw one pigeon ride out of the station on the roof of R46 #5898.
Pigeons actually live in the 168th Street-Broadway station of the #1/#9 line. They make their nests in the brickwork.
PIGEONS - the only things I hates worse than PIGEONS are Diesel Coaches! :o>
wayne
Yes, but if you're the MTA, you can't shoot them, you can't posion them, and you'll probably get hit with a lawsuit by animal rights groups if you tried to administer some form of pigeon birth control. About the only thing you can do is stick a plastic owl in their roosting area and hope that scares the stupider ones away.
Pigeons feed on garbage like rodents and behave just like rats do, except they fly. Why don't we see enviro-freaks suing "rat killers" instead of "pigeon killers"? Because of image. To me, a pigeon is a flying rat. But to enviro-freaks, their screwed up thinking lets flying rodents escape control.
A flying rodent is a bat. A pigeon is a gutter bird, a feathered rat or a desiease bag. The best way to control pigeons are to bring south american lizards to eat them. Then you can bring in needle snakes to eat the lizards and finally gorrilas to eat the snakes. They, in turn, will freeze to death when winter rolls around. My dad told me a story about how back in the day in suburban South jersey my grandfather hated pigeons and one day after church he took his semi-automatic Mauser rifle and shot all the pigeons of the roof of the neighbor's house. I am convinced that "the day" was so much cooler than "today".
Pigeons are rats with wings.
The only thing I hate worse than pigeons (in terms of animals) are mosquitoes. This hatred is even before the whole W Nile thing.
Basically, rather than spraying with Malathion or other carcinogenic compounds, I think that there should be a mosquito DISEASE created by humans. All mammals and reptiles would be carriers to the virus/bacterium which would do no harm. When the mosquito bites, the pathogen would stay in its crop so that it can be passed over to the breeders in the colony. The pathogen would work twofold:
It would lenghten the life of the mosquito so that it can spread the disease further
The mosquito breeders and queens would be sterilized
Their population would briefly increase, then dwindle considerably.
Humans would modify the disease every so often so that it can keep up with the mosquitoes' immune systems and making sure that it affects NO OTHER creature, except for other useless bugs perhaps.
The problem with using humans as hosts is that it can mutate to affect humans. That's something that has to be figured out when we finally have the technology to rid ourselves of these lower life forms.
Ever since my trip to London and trafalgar square I think that most pigeons are ok (the once over there are so nice.) I know that some look a little ratty and some are covered in their own filth, but a slim majority of them are perfictly ok. I have a big problems with rabbits, squirrles and chipmunks or hopping rats, tree rats and striped rats. My problem with them is that they are basically as rats, but they have evolved to have various attachments that make then appear "cute" to humans. If you took away that puffy tail or those big ears or those stripes and puffy cheaks you'd just be left with a rat. Those woodland rats are brainwashing the human community. Where I live the "rat" population is srkrocketing. I have seen 3 generations of rabits already this season. They are all over my yard, eating flowers etc. The squirrles are gnawing on our wooden padio furnature and at oe point they made a nest in my car. They worst part is that these cute and cuddly creatures won't let me pet them. There is a squirrel nest in one of our trees and one of these days I'm going to go at it with a pole saw.
You should see what the rabbits and squirrels say about you destroying their habitat with house, driveway, etc. The excavation for your basement probably destroyed their subway completely.
Well I live in a real town that has history and a grid layout. My house dates from 1941 and the neighbor's house dates from like 1920 (she has a 1000 gal underground oil tank, talk about cool) so if it did destroy any rodent subway system, it would have had to have been built a long time ago. Although it might explain how we get those squirrles in our basement from time to time.
[My house dates from 1941 and the neighbor's house dates from like
1920 (she has a 1000 gal underground oil tank, talk about cool)]
Not so cool if it begins to leak and she gets hit with the cost of environmental remediation.
[Back on July 9, I saw one pigeon ride out of the station on the roof of R46 #5898.]
I got something to beat that. Last year, I saw 2 pigeons board an F train at the West 8 Street station. They got off by the time the train left Kings Highway.
At Dyre ave, Lefferts, Astoria, Coney Island, and Both Rockaways I frequently see birds walk onto the train, look around for a while, and get off before the train leaves. One time I saw one grab and fly a tin foil ball off the train. Specially trained by the car cleaners?
I don't know of any subway stations with a pigeon dropping problem but it's pretty bad at Lippman plaza in Flushing. The "flying rats" feed on all the garbage there and leave a big mess.
Funny you should ask.
In 1998, the MTA completed a multimillion dollar remodeling of the Woodside (LIRR)/61st St (IRT) station. It took them three years to finish. They installed what they're calling a waiting room, but is really an open space with a few benches. In front of the ticket booth, they've propped up a hastily produced 'Ticket Office' sign. Kind of a homespun folksy touch.
But the distinguishing characteristic of the place is the fact that they left all kinds of bars and girders exposed on the ceiling. And the pigeons are all over the place, and boy, do they rain down the sh!t. White blotches all over the floor. There's one bench in particular that periodically gets assaulted by the birds and they clean it off, only to be covered with the white glop again pretty quickly.
And they coulda prevented it if only they had installed a proper ceiling (as they did directly above some of the benches). The birds fly over there anyway and crap on that too.
I gots no idea where the millions went on the station improvements at Woodside...unlike recent reno's at Bayside and Port Washington, the one at Woodside is for the boids, literally.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don’t know about this system . . . but on PATH, Journal Square for years took the prize, generally on the southernmost side of the station.
I think they're putting up a new ceiling there.
Lets see...
Gun Hill Rd / Pelham Parkway (5)
168 st (1)<9> (Worse now with those crappy new lights for them to roost on)
Jamaica (LIRR); The spikes on top of the flipper signs (mezzanine) have mostly fallen off, and are basically useless. Birds also divebomb commuters.
I probably know of more, but haven't been to many elevated stations in a while.
In Philly, Fern Rock on The BSL, and any outdoor station on The MFL are basically used as American Standards by the pigeons. If only they learned how to flush.
The guy who figures out a foolproof way to housebreak birds will make a fortune. I mean, we gotta change the paper in the birdcage every other week and parakeets have been housepets for the last 100 years or so.
Two pretty good ways to control pigeons.
1. Corn with pigeon birth control impregnated. They eat it, lay eggs, but the eggs are sterile.
2. Start getting peregrine falcons to set up houskeeping on tall buildings. It seems to work in Baltimore, where a a pair have a permanent roost on the USF&G building's 14th floor. The building's owners keep the project going. The falcons mate for life, and are the natural enemy of the pigeon. There's another pair that has roosted on the Key Bridge. There are still a lot of pigeons in downtown Baltimore, but not as many as there were 30 years ago. The falcons usually raise 2 or 3 broods per season, and the eyases (young falcons) consume 4 or 5 pigeons per eyas per day. (Burp)
Baltimore (transit) pigeon story. Irvington Car House used to be home to a large flock of pigeons, who roosted in the carhouse's upper story. One day, one of the birds managed to fall into a bucket of yellow paint. The bucket turned over, and a VERY wet, yellow bird tumbled out, shook itself and waddled into the carhouse depths. Several weeks, at City College (my high school, despite the name) what shows up in the local pigeon population? A Chrome Yellow pigeon.
BTC tried method #1, the population reduced slightly, but the pigeons had to find a new home after September 1964, when the carhouse was torn down, having been closed on the last day of operation, November 3, 1963.
I recently saw a two hour program on PBS titled "Railway Adventures Across Australia". I thought it was quite interesting and learned a bit about the history of railroads in Australia as well as many pictures of steam locomotives. Railfans should look for this program in the PBS schedules.
Tom
All I ever hear about these things is how they slow down trains. What is their primary purpose? My guess is to slow down fast moving trains on steep downhills. How close am I?
The answer is here...
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/timesig.html
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
That's part of the story; even though called GRADE timers by the rule book they can be employed to enforce speed restrictions on curves, interlocking apporaches, and wherever it is deemed absolutely necessary. There's the better two-block system where if the yellow doesn't clear you get a chance to stop or slow enough for the red (second signal) to clear; in the one block timers either you get it right or there goes your air, the tripper dumps it.There is also STATION time where several signals behind a stopped train are red and if you keep to the proper, very slow speed all but the two behind the train go yellow so you can approach the station slowly, less risk of collision.
Which subway lines employ the "one shot" system and which ones employ the better "two shot" system?
Well, the one shot clears to a green or yellow from a RED/WHITE aspect. The two shot clears from a YELLOW/S or YELLOW/D aspect. Every line can have either or. The system is chosen on the level of protection needed.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
From what I've heard on Subtalk the ex-BMT still has some one block RED timers, not red over lunar. I always thought having timers with only a red was terrible but places on the BMT have been like that for years. Believe the 14 St. tube was the discussion in point. Properly though a grade time, one block timer would be red over lunar. Everything isn't proper. ORIGINALLY IIRC the BMT and IRT had all one-block timers, the IND being more modern had two-block ones. As you say nowadays the situation is pretty much the level of protection needed. As time went by signal updates were made on the BMT and IND so the two-block system started showing there in the 50's. [Back to solid red timers, no lunar, imagine if you're doing 35, the timer doesn't clear, and there's a TRAIN IN THE BLOCK ahead?
Back to solid red timers, no lunar, imagine if you're doing 35, the timer doesn't clear,
and there's a TRAIN IN THE BLOCK ahead?
The train would not be in the block immediately in advance of
that red signal that didn't clear, but another block away. The
presence of time control on a signal doesn't prevent it from
giving the usual automatic block protection, which is double-red
overlap. But yes, without a lunar white you might be encouraged
by habit to approach that red signal not prepared to stop short
of it, and the day it doesn't clear because of a train ahead,
track circuit failure, whatever, you're in the hole.
When that happens, I'm sure the TA won't accept "but it's a timer!" as an excuse. I once was on a train where a TO crawled through an area timed w/o lunar white at about 5 MPH, until he saw all signals green. Must have had a problem there before.
I see this a lot with strings of overlapped timers, like on the Manny B. The TO's wait for the green aspect to pass the signals, and then time their speed to hit all of the greens instead of all of the yellows. Is this the way they are trained, or is this "Cover Your A**" mentality at work?
That's the proper way to take 2-shot timers. They should clear
from Y-S to G as the train passes. If they are still displaying
Y-S when the train passes, then it is going too fast.
I rode an R68 [?] D train about 4 years ago and found the ride quite annoying as whoever was running hit brakes for every one of them; [timers on the bridge]. Also I find it quite disturbing that so many T/O's crowd timers and nearly stop for many of them, you'll find the ride can be as smooth as silk and probably less stress on the T/O as well as passengers if they run at the proper speed.
Not to mention wear and tear on the brakes
So the TO's that run past a string of Y-S's are just "playing close to the wire"
Let's say you have a string of GT signals 1, 2, 3, 4 etc., and assume
all track circuits are clear as a train approaches signal 1. Signal
1 is green and has a fixed "T" or "GT" sign next to it. Signal 2
displays Y/S and signals 3 and 4 display R. Track circuit
1 runs from signal 1 to signal 2. When the train passes signal 1,
track relay 1 drops. A back contact on the track relay causes a
motorized timer relay to start running. The delay of the timer
is calibrated to be the length of track circuit 1 divided by the
desired speed limit. Usually a little slop (2 or 3 MPH) is allowed
over the posted speed limit. If the train proceeds from signal 1
to 2 at an average speed of less than or equal to the speed limit,
then timer 1 completes its cycle before the train reaches signal 2.
Timer 1 not being complete is what is holding signal 3 at red. So,
if the train is not too fast, signal 3 clears before the train
passes signal 2. Signal 2 was displaying a yellow because signal
3 was red, so now signal 2 displays a green. Signal 4 is still being
held at red by timer 2 so signal 3 displays Y/S.
If, on the other hand, the train is faster than the speed limit,
then timer 1 doesn't complete before the train passes signal 2,
de-energizing track relay 2. This switches the time control of
signal 3 from timer 1 to timer 2. Timer 2 is triggered by the
occupancy of track circuit 2. The train must now do an average
speed of no more than the speed limit, otherwise timer 2 will not
complete before the train reaches signal 3, therefore signal 3
will still be red, and the train will be tripped.
P.S. Retro-active thanks to someone who, I think, doesn't post
here anymore, "Mr Train Control", who once sent me some signal
circuit prints describing the above.
Hence the "Two Shot" nickname for the Y-S aspect. The GT "sign" aspect is something I hadn't noticed in all of my looking out the front. It's just as important as the signal aspects I would guess.
I sometimes work on automations that use motor driven cams for time delays. Do grade time signals employ similar assemblies?
{or maybe there's something with sand running through an hourglass - on the unresignalled IRT }
Stop by the Shore Line Trolley museum one day when I'm there and
I'll show you some time element relays. There are several types
but they all work on a rotating element, a gear reduction, and
a cam-activated contact.
Dig. Are you up there often? I stopped by about six weeks ago, and there wasn't much going on (midweek).
Many of the active volunteers, myself included, are there mostly
on weekends, especially Saturdays. email me in advance.
Ed, as a very good example of a Grade Timer on the BMT Eastern Division is the signal just past New Lots Ave. on the southbound (track P1) on the way to 105th.
It is a perfect location for a Grade Timer as the trackbed is on a gradual descent to grade level where there is a righthand curve.
Doug aka BMTman
Thankfully we didn't have that timer when I worked there. The heartbreaking thing was having to STOP for the public crossing.After it was removed it was a nice ride highballing down and into E105. Made some gorgeous stops with the R9's after a few practice stops. I mean being careful the first few times. As for timers I've noticed quite a growth of them especially in places where I don't really think they're necessary. Like Christopher northbound on the Bway-7th express.
In Sunday's Daily News the cover story in the
Lifeline section is "Art Goes Underground". It is a
two page story with pictures of various stations and
the art on station walls.
What lines are there that you would consider redundant, or "excess baggage?" From looking at The Map, I would say the Grand Concourse line and the 6 Ave. express. Grand Concourse seems close to the 4, and the 6 Ave. Exp stops at nearly every stop as the local. What would a "lean" subway look like?
Don't give 'em any ideas! We've lost the Culver shuttle and the 3rd Ave el since the Seventies already; lost the LIRR Rock line since the 60s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Your question (about the D & 4) might seem reasonable from the standpoint of a map. The lines running parallel within 2 blocks of each other, stopping at virtually the same cross-streets. In order to accurately answer the question, you need to get out and ride the lines. When you do, you'll see that both lines run much of the day at capacity or at least with standees. How would you eliminate either? of course, you can pare away some stops but whose do you eliminate? NIMBY in reverse? Perhaps if all 3 divisions had been built with unification in mind things might have been different.
Like a subway that couldn't handle the passenger load that currently exists, let alone the load that existed when those lines were built.
-Hank
The IND has the finest express/local combo there is. Outer-outer local trains become expresses closer in. The outer lines have few express stops and all the big central stops are served by both trains.
What the IND lacked in the BMT's technology and in the IRT's art, it made up for with superb line engineering. If only they had built more new as opposed to replacement lines.
In order to solve the problem of redundancy on the Jerome/Concourse lines, the Jerome Avenue line could be demolished and replaced with a line uphill under University Avenue. But is that something we really need to spend money on?
Horrors, I read a news clipping my mom sent me in the 80's, that the idea was about to tear down the Jerome line. Admittedly the city was having lean [and hard] times then and that area was not prosperous. Their thought were to terminate the 4 at 161- st and beyond that one had to take the D. Since the 4 was an el that of course would go. But as train Dude says there's more than enough business for both lines, probably all lines. Thankfully Jerome still survives.
But if the #4 train were ended at 161 St., couldn't the savings be used to mprove the other line and make up the difference? Just a thought!
For those here who do not work for NYCT or a railroad, if you could get a job with NYCT, what job would it be?
Project manager for the Second Avenue line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd like a job in the budget department (inside joke).
Railfan Window Installer!
Subway T/O or RR Conductor.
my wish already came true.......i'm finally a rr conductor.
My ideal subway job? A controller in the new IRT command center on 9th Avenue, once it opens.
One of my dream NYCT jobs would be as a Managerial Supervisor.
That way I could find plenty of time to visit websites and make postings 24-7.
Doug aka BMTman
i would like to be your superior... but i just checked the chain of command in the mta, and i observed that no one is superior to you...
however, if such a position existed, i would have daily 2 hour meetings, in which i would force you to listen to my best comic material... if i could get you to laugh, then i would know that the material would be a natural for my night club act... if you didn't find my material funny, at least i would get the satisfaction of knowing that i was making you suffer for 2 hours each day...
I've tried so hard to ignore you over the last few days Hence, your last post almost went un-noticed by me but it does beg a response.
Actually, you'd like to be my supervisor not my superior. You could never be my superior. I'm suprised and educated man does not know the difference. But you don't need to be my supervisor to get me to laugh. Just say something funny. You don't get it, do you?
Y O U A R E N O T F U N N Y
but even the worst comics have their cult following and you've certainly got yours. The thing is that the purpose of Subtalk was not to try out sub-par comedic material. I am sure that there are websites for that. Yet you chose to keep posting your sophomoric humor here despite protests from others besides myself. Well, it's not for me to explain what you do. You are well aware of why I do not like you personally - aside from your keen comic mind. Despite my extreme personal dislike for you, when, on a rare occassion, you asked a serious question or made a serious point, I responded in kind. You do not seem capable of the same seperation.
While I'm sure that more people here are interested in discussing real issues rather than the rantings of a 56 year-old wannabe, at this point, I have had enough of you and your moronic humor. The stage is all yours paulie.
i would feel guilty if your personal dislike for me is what drove you from the subtalk message board...
i don't doubt that you dislike me, but i suspect you are troubled with your inability to manage things here at subtalk in the same manner that you manage things up in the bronx... there people who work under your supervision have to do your bidding... here you are not my superior, and i am not bound by your likes and dislikes...
you described " the rantings of a 56 year old wannabe"... frankly at 56, i do not consider myself a mature, or happy, or set in life person... i am not married, have no children or grandchildren... if i become ill, i have to deal with my fears on my own... that is scary... most of the other people here on subtalk,including you, have richer lives than i do...
building the motorman's cab was something unusual that i did, but frankly doesn't make me feel like i am leading a fuller life...
if there is anything that i feel fortunate or blessed about in my accomplishments, is that from many years of working as a tutor i have developed some experience with the problems that people have with math... having sat with people who have suffered deeply with math, i can see things from their viewpoint and not from the viewpoint of someone who finds math easy... sometimes that helps...
perhaps another thing i feel happy about is having a screwy sense of humor... i enjoy it, not everyone does...
most importantly, i feel fortunate that over the years i have been "protected" from any real horrible things happening to me... maybe it is luck... maybe someone or some force has been looking out for me...i am grateful for that...
there was a comedy group "the firesign theater" who had an album called " i think we are all bozos on this bus", referring to their feeling that all of us are leading lives that often reflect foolishness... the foolishness often comes out of the pain and hurt of our lives...
much as i have been troubled by your attitude, i realize that you are not evil, but just another person struggling on earth to make a life...i, too struggle, maybe not hard enough to be successful
i trust you are aware of the blessings in your life, and i hope you derive much comfort from them...
I always had a secret passion to be a train operator but I chose a different path career wise in Transit. The closest I have come to my dream is operating streetcars at the Shoreline which to me is a friendly little railroad up in Connecticut. Operating on a hot humid afternoon with the smell of the creosite on the rails and the sea air does remind me of the Rockaway A line when I use to go to the beach as a young man!
One thing that this BBS has helped me realize, that just like MABSTOA all things that glitter are not gold, so I guess I'll stay where Im at "upstairs".
Shoot Railfan vidieos thru the center front inside all TRANSVERSE CAB EQUIPPED SUBWAY CARS...
since all NYC cars are not OPTO right ??
Unless some conversion I don't know about has occurred none of the Redbirds, R32, R38, R40, R42 are OPTO therefore have railfan windows.To go back to my ancient history the old IRT Gibbs cars [RIP 1958] weren't OPTO but had full width cab taking up the entire head end vestibule. The BMT Multi's were equipped for OPTO and had full width cabs whather or not it was used. GIBBS: 1904, 05; Multi: 1936.So take advantage of the Railfan windows while still available.
Motorman, preferably on the BMT no later than 1960.
Equipment Purchaser, so when a new fleet of subway cars is needed, I will specify in the contract that the carbodies will be identical to the "Almond Joys".
Tower Operator! Preferablely at a PRR tower with a US&S machine.
Click. WHOOSH. Clunk! Lock. Hiss.
President of Capital Area Transit Rail Operations Division, or CATRail. The "capital" being Harrisburg, PA, of course. My first task would be overseeing the DBOM activity for our "Corridor One" line:
Carlisle-Mechanicsburg-Shirmanstown-Camp Hill-Lemoyne-City Island-Harrisburg (Tranportation Center) via Cumberland Valley Railroad Bridge-Steelton-Middletown-Harrisburg International Airport-Elizabethtown-Mount Joy-Lancaster
Our rolling stock would be either Kawasaki LRVs powered by overhead catenary, OR 2-coach consists of Comet IV's trailing an AEM7-AC, also powered by overhead catenary, which would have to be insalled on the Harrisburg-Carlisle leg. I would make sure adequate parking lots/structures were built at the outlying stations, with a gigantic one at City Island, which would be cheaper than parking downtown. The GG-1 at the Transportation Center would be restored, the environmental problems addressed, and occasional museuem excursions would be run.
T/O.
--Mark
To take videos and still photos of all phases of the operation of the n.y.c. subways and elevated lines,and to be able to access all historical transit photos and movies.to do this and get paid too......
it's 2:25, nobody showed up.... the 6 donuts are getting stale....
I'm on my mini-web browser on my Sprint Cell Phone.........About to drive Flxible Metro B #3511 through 3025 Ocean Avenue..........YIPPIE KAY YEAH!!!!!!!!!1
I finally made it -- barely.
I was able to grab one measely doughnut before a representative of MTA came by and was about to confiscate heypaul's R-9 cab.
Apparently the SubTalk board was monitored and an RCI was sent inspect the cab for defects.
Finding hundreds of them, heypaul was advised to relinquish ownership or face time in a Forgotten New york Mental hospital.
In any event I showed up for the torture.
Doug aka BMTman
I finally got here....... The rat hole in the brick wall turned out to be the entrance.... I didn't know the apartment # so, I followed the trail of pigeon droppings.... When I got to his door, I was greeted by a pile of 5,000 copes of the New York Times.... After climbing the pile I entered the "Apartment" The padded walls give it a home like feel... "Mental home"!!! The mildew on the donuts is still growing....Pretty cool to watch... We put some roaches in the freezer...It's pretty cool to watch them thaw out and come back to life. Anyway....Wait...OH NO!!!!!! The rat is fighting me for the donut!!!!!!!!! I'm going to have to get back later.
>>>>I didn't know
the apartment # so, I followed the trail of pigeon droppings.... When I got to his door, I was
greeted by a pile of 5,000 copes of the New York Times.... After climbing the pile I entered the
"Apartment" The padded walls give it a home like feel... "Mental home"!!! The mildew on the
donuts is still growing.<<<
Did anybody say 'Collier Brothers'?
www.forgotten-ny.com
LOL Mark, I know who you are really talking about! Keep it under your hat.
Found it, After blasting through the front door at full speed with Bus #3511, i've come to find that it was a structual improvement. If you're still coming look for the a$$ of 3511 hanging out of the marque.
Arrive through the front door, I'm greeted by Mark showing me some frozen roach half thawd with the antennas shaking. The Donuts had freakin' moss on it EWWWWWWWWWWWW!
CONDEMN THE BUILDING, EVACUATE NOW SAVE YOURSELF,
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH
Seriously there were a bakers dozen of us incl. two very young men who realy enjoyed heypaul's R-9 cab. I've now added three more to the list of SubTalkers who I've met in person (it's over 40 now).
After a couple of hours and a tour of the heypauls museum ... he's been very succesful at garbich picking & has some real gems, it was on to Coney Island (we lost the Sarge & his son at this point ... they drove off in a cloud of dust).
At CI most of us took a turn on the rails of the Wonder Wheel, then my grandson, Doug & I had a go at the Bumper Cars, well they are electric powered you know. It was getting late so we got some chow to go and lost a few more of the guests.
It was my third Hippo of the day, but the B ended 36th (lots of GOs this weekend ... I caught a N R-38 that went Express down the B to CI). So at 36th we got a R-32 on the N & I insisted that we stay on when another Hippo came in accross the platform. Our operator kept his door open so we talked to him all the way to 23rd. By this time there were just four of us left to attend the UTC meeting (Doug/Mark W./my grandson & I). I only stayed for a short while as my grandson was tired from his 12 hour railfan adventure.
As we got off the LIRR he said to me "are we going to Paul's tommorow?" and before he went to bed we prearanged that he tell grandma of his ride on the Wonder Wheel as it was here favorite ride.
So for the bakers dozen it was a very plesant celerbration of this site's anniversity & Bill Newkirk's birthday.
Mr t__:^)
Agreed! This was my first SubTalk excursion and I was very impressed!
HI EVERYONE!
Trevor
i am waiting in front of the building...... yes it is heypaul's house......an abandoned building... the vermin in front said he is not here..... he is riding the hudson bergen line...... i brought pizza and was just robbed for it..... heypaul....WHERE ARE YOU??????????????????????????????????
Help I am stuck in the t/o cab of an r-68 i was coming out to heypauls and there was no service to Sheepshead bay station, so I guess I'm spending the weekend in c/i/y.
Peace,
ANDEE
I found him! I was scuba diving in the Atlantic off of Coney Island and happened upon a coral reef of an M1. He is teaching math to a school of fish and eating them afterwards.
That's almost worth a rim shot.:-)
Hello there this is Wayne, I forgot my password so I am using Mark W's handle, we are outside this apartment building but nobody is here. I was stuck at 34th Street waiting for a "Q" train to come only to be told it was Saturday (oh well), and then the "D" train was diverted to the express track and it took an hour to go from Prospect Park to Kings Hwy and the A/C went out the folks on board werent too happy about that anyway THERE IS NOBODY HERE. I keep buzzing and buzzing and buzzing and nobody answers....I'm going home! Fooey! Humbug! :o>
waye
I've decided to bring back two things from my past postings:
I'm going to change my e-mail address as often as I changed my handle during the "Humans" era, so if you want to see that, point to my e-mail, my e-mail today is SUBTALKER@BOARSHEVIK.COM.
I'm going back to the station by station tour of lines that don't exist:
This is 207th Street
The next stop on this uptown A train will be 215th Street.
--Subtalker@boarshevik.com
Does anybody remember my original station announcements? I need to know when they where (like think of something that was going on at the same time) so I can try to find them in the archive.
I already found where I became Eugenius D. Train and where I stopped being that. That doesn't help since I've used that name longer than any other except Pigs of Royal Island here.
This is 215th Street
The next stop on this A train will be Marble Hill, last stop in Manhattan.
Eugenius A. Train - subtalker@boarshevik.com
So you've decided to regress. Great. Here we all thought you had been maturing.
-Hank
I've decided to bring back the announcements, but I've scrapped the e-mail idea, since I've decided to have ONE e-mail for each service so I know where somebody sending junk got my e-mail and so that channel can be cut.
I have been looking around for a good digital still camera to shoot transit systems with etc....
I beleive that the SONY CYBERSHOT & CANON $ 600.oo & higher priced digital cams are hard to beat!! I wish i could afford such equipment however i am looking at the OLYMPUS D-360L digital camera writes tif & jpeg has ntsc vidieo line output smart media card removable etc..
It sells for aprox. $ 300.oo ( at least a running start ).....
I think i will ""mail order this from J & R audio & vidieo ..
Downloading to my bangned up old macintosh g3 would be easy with a USB cabe adaptor etc. Then i am in business!!
So. what kind od digital camera(s) do use for your rail transit photography?? & are there any APS film photographers out there ?
CONGRADULATIONS 6 YEARS OF NEW YORK SUBWAY RESOURCES !!!!!!!!!!
( thank you salaamallah)
follow up comment SCRATCH the olympus D 360L digital camera..
however i would like to see the fuji finepix 1400ZoomDigital Camera
it sells for $ 400.oo but still i guess is not as good as the cybershot SONY digital cameras !!
( what do you think )??
I say save your pennies for a real good one; by the time you have enough for a real good one, the technology will have advanced some more and prices will have fallen some more so you'll be doubly lucky. (That's my plan, at least - I don't have a particular one in mind at this point but I'm not in such a big hurry to get on the bleeding edge to spend money right now).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with you there because when I saw the OLYMPUS D-360L in person it was a BIG disapointment !!
The SONY CYBERSHOT DSC-S30 is my choice for an ultimate digital camera !! I do not need the MPEG movie & if i need to do this I have a collection of vidieo cameras !! ( thanks for the advise ) @ SalaamAllah..
sony made a camera that used a floppy disk for storage. panasonic makes one that use "super disk" you put 1500 images on it. also a lot of digital move cameras can take a still picture.
Most important is the 'ISO Equivelant' numbers. You know about film speeds, so you'd want to get a camera that could take pics with ambiant light, so you need an equivalency of around 200, at least.
Otherwise, you'll have to use flash, which is a no-no.
-Hank
unfortunately hank they do not list digital cameras as light lux like my sony tr86 at 0.6 light lux & my new sony TR 416 at a nice low of
0.4 light lux !!!!
I saw this KODAK dightal camera which sells at $300.oo has the iso of
100 200 400 800 I wish i could get iso 1600 !!!!
or 0.4 light lux with "nightshot"!!! I never use a flash at any transit car in which an operator is present !! never !!
We had a good tour of Philly transit today. I started on PATCO car 296 (Vickers) in Lindenwold and Jersey Mike got on in Haddonfield, but we ignored each other until we met on the platform at Market East, where we met Bill Steil getting off the R7 from Trenton and were joined by Transit Chuck G. After a quick trip to the Transit museum and store to buy day passes ($5) and a short wait for possible stragglers, we took the Ridge Ave subway (Kawasaki car 574) to Fern Rock, making only express stops. We returned on the same train (car 566) to Girard, transferred to a local to City Hall, then took the Market Frankford Subway-El to Bridge Street. Builders plate said ADtranz, Elmira Heights, NY; built by Daimler-Benz Transportation (car 1131). We got authentic Philly cheesesteaks in a diner across Frankford Ave from the terminal, then returned, taking in the activity of a major bus and trackless trolley depot. We took car 1046 to 13th St where we got a #36 subway-surface trolley (#9059) and rode its entire route, the highlight of which (outside the subway, that is) is running in the median of Island Ave for the last mile. We got off and watched the car go around the loop, then blow the heck out of its horn and blow by us at the first stop, as it went out of service. After a long wait for the next car, the motorman told us that he wasn't supposed to leave for a while, that there must have been a missing car. Car 9067 came along shortly thereafter, passed the previous one on the 2-track loop, and we rode back to 30th Street. MFSE car 1036 took us to 69th Street Terminal, where we took the P&W (Philadelphia and Western RR, Norristown High Speed Line, SEPTA Route 100) to Bryn Mawr (ABB car # 133) and back. This cost us a token each way, since the day pass is good only in the city. SEPTA base fare is $1.60, tokens are $1.15. A quick trip on the MFSE to 15th Street and the Broad St Subway to Walnut/Locust took us to PATCO, where we took car 295 to Lindenwold. This is the same train Mike and I took to Philly in the morning; 295 and 296 are a married pair and PATCO was running 2 car trains. I bade adieu to my fellow SubTalkers at Lindenwold.
I enjoyed meeting 3 of the people whose posts I read, and I have a better understanding of Mike. I suspect he types SubTalk posts as fast as he walks and talks (and talks and talks &c). I had a great time and look forward to my next trip with SubTalkers.
Ditto for me, too! I had a great time meeting all you guys and Bob's
report in this post is exceptional! It was finally time to meet the
faces behind the names . I kinda figured Jersey Mike was a college
type, and boy does he know his stuff!
Finally home after a long trip........
Chuck Greene
Addendum:
I neglected to mention the speedometer reading on the Ridge Ave subway while on the express tracks under Broad Street. Either Bill Steil or Chuck Greene read 63 mph northbound, and Jersey Mike read 63 mph on our southbound trip.
You also forgot to mention that kid that I saw jump down onto the BSL traks at City Hall to retrive his SKATE BOARD. He had to step on the 3rd rail cover to get back up. Kid was wearing short pants that left his shinns exposed. What an idiot.
"Hey dude, my legs like are all black and they like smell like hotdogs."
I'm sorry I missed the trip. I've been away for the past two weeks. Maybe next time...
Is there a map marking all the different entrances for each station? Where there is a distinction between uptown and downtown entrances, as well as which ones close at certain times?
I was really pleasantly surprised when i met heypaul today. I have had disagreements with him in the past, especially when he started putting the r-142's down. But when I got into the r9 motorman's cab, a strange feeling overcame me. I could feel the power and majesty of these cars. Cars which I thought were just raggedy pieces of junk now appear to me to be truly wonderful pieces of engineering. I now realize the error of my ways. I now realize that the R-142's are worthless pieces of ................
okay guys.... this is heypaul just screwing around... trevor was the last person to post from here... when i logged on just now, the message board was recognizing me as trevor... so i just couldn't resist signing on with his handle...
I made sure my handle was not the last used and boy am I glad I didn't.....
i just got back from coney island where we went after leaving here...
but i am getting ahead of myself... i can't recall there being more people in this apartment at one time than there was today
there was:
thurston and his grandson justin
andee lamb
bob anderson
trevor logan
harry beck
mark w.
a big surprise to me: jeff rosen and his son arthur
"don't hold your breath waiting for me to come" doug
bill newkirk
wayne
we hung out here for a couple of hours... most of the people found it hard to believe that a human being could live in conditions like they observed here... then we headed to coney island via the d train, and several of the guys went on the wonderwheel and the electric cars... the sarge and arthur had split when we left my house, and then bob anderson and wayne split in coney island, and finally thurston and justin and bill newkirk and i went our separate ways from the group... doug, mark, trevor,harry, and andee headed into the city...( i think i may be screwing up who went where)
while we were posting from here, we realized that none of us had wished david and his website a happy 5th anniversary... a lot of us have come to know each other from subtalk... and it has been good getting to know everyone who was with us today, as well as those who were not...
i hope the rest of the guys today felt as comfortable as i felt hanging out with them... it was very easy and a lot of fun spending time with everybody.. i look forward to getting together again...
It was a lot of fun - and the donuts were really very good!
On the way home I took the Sea Beach Line (first time in about 35 years that I've been on the Sea Beach) to Pacific St. to get to the LIRR Flatbush Ave. Terminal. The Manhattan bound trains were supposedly travelling on the express track, but my train of R-32's went local, even local on 4th Ave. portion. I stood at the railfan window the entire trip.
08/05/2000
This was the first time I checked out heypaul's Ocean Ave apartment. The first thing that impressed me was that all the rooms except the bathroom and kitchen were painted MTA blue! Now that's living!
I enjoyed the sight of numerous antique table radios, the ones from the 40's or even the 30's. Then there was the majestic R-9 cab. I was told by Mark W. that heypaul mounted the brake stand on the left and the controller on the right, opposite positions on the real thing! What impressed me about the cab mockup was that everything, including the side cab window, door triggers, pantograph gate and circuit breaker panel were about the same height as the real thing. I guess WayneMrR40slant will probably do the same thing when the slants become fodder for the scrapper. BTW- We had to restrain Wayne when we spotted a R-40 slant (N) train at Stillwell.Wayne spotting that slant was like spotting Carmen Electra in her birthday suit! Now that's a happy birthday to me!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well I'm sorry I couldn't come but you know the way those LI Bus schedules are, can't really do too much on the weekend. And
I believe there is no OB branch service on weekends (buses only) due to LIE Bridgework.
Brooklyn is about a 3.5 hour trip from here. I got a 90 minute bus ride to Flushing, then a few more hours on the subway with all that work going on. Of course the bus ride is the most unpleasant thing, I wish that 7 train ran up to Sea Cliff!
BTW, since I hate my bumpy walls I'm thinking of doing something crazy, covering them with used METROCARDS! I should make a "Metrocard"
border where I hang my NYC subway calender. For August I have a beautiful picture restored Q types on the Sea Beach. Also picked up a book with train pictures from all over the world (even a Hippo "D" train from NYC) for $15 in Borders. The book is "The Ultimate Encyclopedia, Steam and Rail". Huge book and a LOT of pictures.
Also been studying Peter Dougherty's book "Tracks of the subway" looking at the Broadway track connection to 63rd street as I'm planning on riding the "shuttle" to Queensbridge next week. Wonder if I'll get a better look at the unused platform on the other side.
Gotta go now, I gotta catch another centipede running across my floor!
[Brooklyn is about a 3.5 hour trip from here. I got a 90 minute bus ride to Flushing, then a few more hours on the subway with all that work going on.]
It was a 45 minute ride on the LIRR for me, then about 1/2 hour on the "D" subway from Atlantic Ave, well actually we caught a R-38 on the "N" to CI first because we were very early. Then a "D" from CI & we were still 1 hour early. heypaul "came down for the mail" about 12:30 so my grandson got some serious handle time in the R-9 cab. Later Mark W. loaned him his keys & he had fun locking & unlocking the cab door.
Mr t__:^)
I don't know about comparing R40s to Carmen Electra (I'm a Liz Hurley fan myself)...
-- but a Happy Birthday to you, Bill!
That "N" Slant was probably the one they use for the "B" on weekends, and it was probably the only one running. The "B" was being run as a lowly shuttle, with slowworm R68a's.
Oh BTW - guess what I saw in the yard, resting up for Monday's work - #4310-4311, the one used in "The Cowboy Way", signed up as Q.
wayne
I must admit Ms. Hurley is good-looking.:-)
Glad to hear everyone had a good time. Did everyone try to squeeze into heypaul's cab at the same time?
I had a great time and my son Arthur (who will be 4 in two weeks) is still talking about it. The Motorman's cab was even better than I ever expected it to be, right down to the authentic door. (that R1-9 cab door brought back alot of memories as I spent many long hours leaning against R1-9 cab doors while looking out the railfan windows)
Everybody there was so nice and the conversations were like subtalk threads!!! Although I really had to get home to prepare for a trip to Saratoga Springs tomorrow, when I left Paul's house and turned onto Emmonds Av to get onto the Belt 'lil Arthur started begging me to park to see the boats. So as a good father I parked and way took a long walk around Sheepshead Bay, the first time I did that in many, many years.
P.S.-By the way, did anyone else spot that gorgeous girl with the tight dress that got out of the elevator when we were waiting in Paul's lobby? I had to keep on reminding myself that I'm married!!!
[P.S.-By the way, did anyone else spot that gorgeous girl with the tight dress that got out of the elevator when we were waiting in Paul's lobby? I had to keep on reminding myself that I'm married!!!]
You mean Ms. Leggs-A-Plenty? Yeah, I noticed, too (and so did just about everybody else).
That's why I asked Paul if he could find me an apartment in his building ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
doug... this building is a coop, and you would have to be interviewed by the board of directors... they would probably shoot you down, if you didn't promise to sell your car, and buy a vehicle that did not take up 3 parking spots...
"[P.S.-By the way, did anyone else spot that gorgeous girl with the tight dress that got out of the elevator when we were waiting
in Paul's lobby? I had to keep on reminding myself that I'm married!!!]
You mean Ms. Leggs-A-Plenty? Yeah, I noticed, too (and so did just about everybody else). "
Well I'm a bit different. I have a thing for chinese girls, especially those that come fresh from China. And the girls are alot cuter in Chinatown than in Flushing, that's for sure! Especially when they wear those cute little dresses!
Unfortunately there is very little of that for a single guy like me here in the far, removed delapidated village of Sea Cliff. And the only good thing we had is now gone, that being the Sea Cliff village trolley! Someday I'll get a one-way ticket out of this "one bus an hour till 8pm" town.
08/06/2000
Jeff,
Oh yeah! That image is burned in my mind with no intentions of extinguishing the fire! I wonder if heypaul talked her into standing in his R-9 cab with his R-9 tape playing? Did you have to remind yourself you were married of did you feel a jolt of electricity coming from your wedding ring?
As far as Doug's Chrysler is concerned, it could just about fit into a regulation bus stop!
Bill "Newkirk"
"most of the people found it hard to believe that a human being could live in conditions
like they observed here..."
You should see my apartment. The walls are slanted, so is the floor. Windows aren't level and I got no insulation.
Also I got some pretty old electrical outlets. Did I mention it's often 90F in here? And there are lots of cracks and crevices where all kinds of creatures like, such as Centipedes, Earwigs, and Wasps.
After all this is Sea Cliff, land of old buildings and LOTS OF WEEDS!
Some say Sea Cliff is a haunted old town.....
It's not like you own the place, why can't you move?
Currently cannot afford to move out. Apartments on Long Island are bad in general. I might have to go to Queens if I really wanna get out of this place.
And I just got the latest forecats, looks like 90s for Monday through Wednsday. Gonna be roasting in here no insulation. Just got a new more powerful A/C but when there's no insulation there's nothing to keep cool air in, plus being on the 2nd (top) level.
I hope there will be enough electricity to go around, and there won't be more blackouts or brownouts affecting the subways.
I was planning on riding the 34th street shuttle to Queensbridge on Tuesday as well as R142 hunting, hopefully the heat won't mess those plans up.
I wouldn't mind moving back to Queens if I could find a place that let me use the yard.
wayne
...wishin' I ... wishin' I was there with you's!!
reporting from Champaign, IL..
I had a very good time; wish I could have stayed longer, but I had business to tend to back at home. I took the "N" back, thinking I'd get a Slant and a ride up the express track due to a G.O. but NO - I got #2850 (an R68) and a nice ride up the LOCAL track, making every stop. My train was to be the 6:05 out of Penn Station. This is a major connection, so I decided to take a chance on getting to it via Flatbush Avenue LIRR and I got off at Pacific Street. I was about ten minutes early for the 6:04 out of Flatbush, and I made it home OK.
Many thanks to heypaul for his hospitality and to everybody for their company - we have to do this again in the future. I wish I could have stayed longer.
wayne
Hey Paul, do I get to see it, when I come in for the Madison Reunion in November, before the open house at the school??????
"Hey Paul, do I get to see it, when I come in for the Madison Reunion in November, before the open house at the school??????"
sure bob... i have had inquiries from the alumni association to have the reunion in my apartment... i would cater it with donuts and soda like yesterday...
Thank you ,paul, for your hospitality. It was a pleasure meeting people just as crazy as I.
Peace,
ANDEE
And remember the next time we have a get togather at heypaul's you don't need a mustard stain on your shirt to gain admittance !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, that reminds me -- why didn't Paul have a secret password that would've gained us entrance to his apartment?
Something like "Swordfish", perhaps?
Let's keep that in mind for the next get together.
Doug aka BMTman
You mean he can here what is said into the intercom in the lobby ?
Mr t__:^)
LUTEFISK.
It was also good to see Bill Newkirk and Jeff Rosen w/his son as there was no prior knowledge that they were going to make the trip.
Glad that everyone had enough dougnuts -- stale or otherwise -- and even the little ones had a great time horsing around with the R-9 cab.
Unfortunately, we couldn't do a "how many guys can you fit in a VW" type photo op. (Speaking for myself, we would've needed a full-width cab for a shot like that!)
It was alot of fun meeting up with my fellow SubTalkers.
Now all we need are the pictures, right Harry?? (High St.)
Doug aka BMTman
Wish I could've made it, but I had one of those pesky 'family committments'. Sounds like it was a blast.
Well, maybe another time, if Paul would WANT any of us in his apartment again.
sure... i'd be happy to have people over again...
This question is a bit technical so bare with me. When a train pulls into a station where there is a diverging route. I am assuming the T/O will punch in the route. Are the switches and signals automatically set or after the T/O punches in the route they go to a master tower where an actual person must set the route up?
I can think of no place on the NYCT where route request punches are automatic. To the best of my knowledge, they all go to a tower where the tower operator sets the route.
Looking at the PATH rule book, I find at least 6 different signal aspects for diverging routes.
LEFT = R-G R-Y-Y or R-Y
RIGHT = G-R Y-Y-R or Y-R
I find it strange that PATH identifies Left or right while most properties identify Diverging or Normal, thereby limiting the possible number of signal aspects. Anyone know of another property where left and rignt are not the same aspect?
Looking at the PATH rule book, I find at least 6 different signal aspects for diverging routes.
LEFT = R-G
R-Y-Y
or R-Y
RIGHT = G-R
Y-Y-R
or Y-R
I find it strange that PATH identifies Left or right while most properties identify Diverging or Normal, thereby limiting the possible number of signal aspects. Anyone know of another property where left and rignt are not the same aspect?
On the PATH it's actually very simple - left when the bottom half of the signal is yellow or green, right when the top half is yellow or green. Think of it as a pair of signals, one for the left route and one for the right, stacked on top of each other.
Just like the old IRT.
That type of signalling would come in handy if there was a three way switch. I have never seen one in person, I did install one on a previous model railroad board and promptly removed it. The closest IND signal that would fit the description is the home signal at 168 St on A2, which tells you mainline (Y/A4/Y), yard indication signal (Y/Y/Y) or the call on (R/R/Y). Straight iron to yard lead A2, right to the mainline or left to yard lead A1. 238 Street and 180 Street on the White Plains Lines have multiple home signals indicating second diverging routes as well.
On approach to Main Street, there's a signal on the middle track. Bottom green indicates that the train will enter Main on the middle track. Two yellows would send it to track 1 (left), and three yellows send it to track 2 (right).
If the fellow who posts as "Subway Al" notices this thread he'll
give a definitive answer. H&M used to have a unique system of
dual side-by-side homeballs where the left-hand signal head
gave the information for the left-hand route and similarly for the
right-hand route. I think these are all gone now.
Why did the FRA let PATH switch from the PRR position light signals on the extra-terrianian part of its route? Also, with such a strong PRR heritage why did PATH convert to route signaling. I would have figured the PA to be smart enough to realize that trains can't align their own routes.
Most NX/UR interlockings (push-button machines) have the
ability to run on "automatic" where the punch box triggers
a lineup just like pressing the entrance button associated with
that route on the panel. The towers are left on automatic when
they are not staffed. One example that comes to mind is 50&6 Ave
where the tower is always on automatic.
On our "N" ride uptown the T/O had to punch in twice. One of the signals had a "D" vs. "S" on the bottom. I asked what was the D for he responed "Diverge" & sure enough we moved from local to express track.
Mr t__:^)
I just got a very strange fare box. The former owner claims its from a New Orleans horsecar. This piece is about 18" high, about 8" wide and 6" deep. The body is hardwood, with brass nails and plates. The entire front is glass. On the inside, there are movable "windows" each about the size of an index card. Each window has a different denomination listed on small brass plates. The windows move when outside brass levers are depressed. There is a removable metal coin box in the bottom, slides into a drawer type receptacle in the bottom of the unit.
There is no builders plate. Anyone know what this thing is?
Thanks,
Bob
I'm sick of making this announcement
This is 231st Street
The next stop on this A train will be 242nd Street
Eugenius A. Train -subtalker@boarshevik.com
08/05/2000
I have seen on a pocket fold out subway map given out at heypaul's bash that the 241st St/White Plains Rd station has been renamed Wakefield/241st St. I also noticed this at Times Sq on those enamel signs showing the routes and destinations.
When did this come about? I assume this area was once known as Wakefield years ago?
Bill "Newkirk"
It makes sense, since all of the other stations are on White Plains Road and the line is called the White Plains Road line, so White Plains Road is assumed automatically.
I assume, for lack of a better name, it is still called Wakefield. After crossing, the MNRR and the Bronx River Parkway (and the Bronx River itself) on one viaduct, 241st Street enters the City of Yonkers and becomes Wakefield Avenue (or Road, I don't recall).
Wasn't one of the old New York Central (Metro-North) stations kown as Wakefield a long time ago?
Not up on the history of the area, but with that big cemetary west of Webster Avenue, maybe there was a big field where they had the wake before the burials? :-)
That's a great theory.
I wish I still had History in Asphalt by McNamara to put an end to the dispute.
Last week we had a few posts concerning this strange name in the n.e. Bronx. I dug out my copy of the McNamara book; he says:
WAKEFIELD: This was the name of a separate village, surveyed in 1855 and incorporated into NYC in 1895. Original bounds were the Bx River on the west, Laconia Ave on the east, and from E215 St up to E233.
Upon annexation in 1895, Wakefield was extended up to E238th, absorbing Jacksonville (separate topic) and later up to E243rd St, absorbing Washingtonville. (another topic).
Nowhere does it mention the act of holding wakes, etc, but one would assume that was dictated by the great Woodlawn Cemetery. The was an in at east 233 and Bx River Rd catering specifically to funeral parties.
It was razed in 1935 to make way for the r.r.station.
Joe C
Sorry for bothering you,
What did it say about Jacksonville and Washingtonville?
I assume it had to do with the presidents?
Not a bother. I did not bring in my book today, "History in Asphalt"; it is somewhat hefty in my briefcase. I didn't need to lug the added weight around today. Perhaps I can bring it tomorrow and fill U in on those to names.
[Wasn't one of the old New York Central (Metro-North) stations known as Wakefield a long time ago?]
Still is.
Wakefield station is still around - it is reached by stairs from the 241st St. bridge that crosses the Bronx River, Bronx River Parkway, and two sets (Harlem and New Haven) of Metro-North tracks.
The Village (?) of Wakefield was one of the municipalities which combined to form the Borough of the Bronx. Its original borders are responsible for the "hump" in the middle of the Bronx/Westchester line (without which 241st St. would be in Westchester).
More recently, there was a Wakefield movie theatre somewhere in the E. 230s on White Plains Rd., but it is gone now. I'm pretty sure there is still a Wakefield Pharmacy though. At any rate, the name is certainly used for the area surrounding 241st St. station.
The post office in that area uses the name Wakefield, too.
--Mark
I know that there is a close connection from the MNRR to the 1/9 at Marble Hill, that saves money rather then take the train all the way to GCT. Is Wakefield the closest MN connection to the Subway on the NH/Harlem Divisions in the Bronx
I believe service there is pretty infrequent.
The Wakefield theater was just north of East 233rd Street, on the east side of the street -- just about where the north end of the IRT platforms are.
Actually, E 241st Street becomes McClean Ave in Yonkers. There is a Wakefield Ave nearby, also in Yonkers, but I don't think it goes into the Bronx.
Andrew :)
I checked the map, it is Wakefield Avenue that 241st Street becomes.
238th Street becomes McLean Avenue.
OH! My mistake :O
:)Andrew
..atleast the 2 doesn't get LOST IN YONKERS.
Wakefield station on the MNRR is within walking distance from the subway station, mayhaps this is the reason for the renaming? It's not exactly new, since the map from Summer '99 hanging on my wall shows it as Wakefield/241.
I have always gone on the assumption that the neighborhood was called Wakefield.
I've always gone on the assumption that suddenly calling the neighborhood Wakefield was a silly pretension, something like renaming Hells' Kitchen Clinton and several similar exercises in vanity in Brooklyn. I live on the Upper West Side, not Morningside Heights or that new neighborhood down the street Manhattan Valley!
Morningside Heights was always called that, the Upper West Side ends at 110th Street.
As for Manhattan Valley, that actually refers to the valley of 125th Street aka Manhattanville. I guess somebody screwed up here. The area used to be called Bloomingdale.
[I have seen on a pocket fold out subway map given out at heypaul's bash that the 241st St/White Plains Rd station has been renamed Wakefield/241st St. I also noticed this at Times Sq on those
enamel signs showing the routes and destinations.]
There seems to be a trend toward using neighborhood names for terminal stations, e.g. 207 Street/Inwood, 95 Street/Bay Ridge, Mott Ave/Far Rockaway.
That's a pleasant reversal for the TA, which a third of a century ago, went out of its way to strip community names from subway maps.
So "Astoria" became "Ditmars Blvd", "95th Street Fort Hamilton" became simply "95th Street Brooklyn" and my personal un-favorite "Canarsie" became "Rockaway Parkway."
How times change.
Using neighborhood or landmark names in station names is great. This solves the problem of conflicting names more elegantly than using the "Avenue of Operation" which would be the same for every station on a line.
At least "95th Street Fort Hamilton" didn't become "95th Street Dan Ryan."
Or 95th St=Watts
That would be 103rd Street = Watts
wayne
WATTS EXTENDS FROM MANCHESTER ON THE NORTH TO IMPERIAL ON THE SOUTH, SO 96TH IS IN WATTS
WATTS EXTENDS FROM MANCHESTER ON THE NORTH TO IMPERIAL ON THE SOUTH, SO 96TH IS IN WATTS cORRECTION firestone ON THE nORTH
[re use of neighborhood names for terminal stations]
[That's a pleasant reversal for the TA, which a third of a century ago, went out of its way to strip community names from subway maps.]
What makes it even better, in a way, is the fact that the TA did this without having had any pressing need to do so. Most people who are heading to a terminal station know where they're going. You're surely not going to see too many tourists on their way to Bay Ridge or Wakefield. So the TA *could* have kept the names off the map and few people would have been inconvenienced. The fact that the TA added the names, in other words, is a nice touch that make the subway seem more like the glue that holds the city together, so to speak.
Now let's go a step further:
"Flatbush—Church Avenue," "Gravesend—Neck Rd.," "Fiske Terrace—Avenue H," "Bedford—Franklin Avenue."
Others?
Gravesend Neck Road is the actual name of the street, I don't see why they don't use it in the station.
I meant specifically the Neck Road station on the F line, which is at the center of the Town Square of Gravesend.
I guess they don't use the full name of "Gravesend Neck Road" on the stations since it's the only "Neck Road" in the area, so there's no confusion. In my "neck" of the woods in western Suffolk, they are three "Neck Roads"--"Little East," "Great East," and "Great." They all go to different places.
I meant specifically the Neck Road station on the F line, which is at the center of the Town Square of Gravesend.
No such station.
{ No such station as Neck Rd. on the F. ]
There was a station at Neck Rd. on the Culver Line in pre-elevation days. And in the 19th C. it was called "Gravesend" Cf. Seyfried, vol. 4.
Just goes to show you how long it's been since I rode the line. :-)
125th Street (Lenox Avenue) - HARLEM!
wayne
Wasn t the old signs for 207 St signed Washington Hts-207 and for the R 95th St-Ft Hamilton???
207th Street isn't even in Washington Heights.
You are right, but the sign used to Say 207th St-Washington Hts. I know it is Inwood
[Wasn t the old signs for 207 St signed Washington Hts-207 and for the R 95th St-Ft Hamilton???]
I believe that was the case with 95th Street. Fort Hamilton, as a neighborhood name, seems to be fading away in the face of Bay Ridge's expansion, using the Fort Hamilton name today would be sort of inaccurate.
Dunno about 207th, but I certainly wouldn't consider the area to be part of Washington Heights.
The latest editions of Le Map show the 207th Street terminal's co-name as Inwood, which is much more accurate than Washington Heights.
The other end of the line depicts the Lefferts Boulevard terminus as being in Ozone Park. This is incorrect; it's in Richmond Hill. Liberty Avenue, above which the 'A' runs, changes from Ozone Park to Richmond Hill at 108th Street. South Ozone Park begins two blocks south of Liberty, at 109th Avenue.
New Lots Avenue has no community co-name. Maybe the TA figures enough people would remember the old, seldom-used neighborhood monicker of New Lots. Frankly, most natives of the area think of it as East New York.
How about "205 Concourse" on all the D trains, pre R68. That was confusing. People would get off at Bedford Pk (200th St) on the Concourse and wander aimlessly to 205th on the Concourse. Nothing they were looking for was there. Still happens even today.
Joe C.
As to Washington HTs 207th St, The line was know as the Eight Ave-Washington Hts Exp in its early days. just like the D was the 6th Ave-Concourse. Probably the Wash Hts, showed near where it ended. Lots of areas back in the pre and early post war days changed names. When i was a kid, we lived on Kings Hwy and Bedford, We used to say we lived in Flatbush, it should have been named Midwood, now if you look at the Book Neighborhoods of Brooklyn it is called Madison Park or Kingsway, they keep changing
In 1974 my family moved to East 35th St & Kings Highway. The neighborhood is either called "Marine Park/Mill Basin" (though it's not near either, although it is closer to Marine Park) or Midwood (which is really a few blocks west of that location) or Flatlands (which is really a few blocks east of that location).
--Mark
Methinks the first designation meant the route: Concourse Line, Fulton Line, etc. I always wondered about 205 St.: Perry Ave would be more like it. Fulton-East NY, yes. Fulton Euclid, actoally on Pitkin; Lefferts on Liberty; so I'll rest that "Fulton, Concourse, Wash. Hts." were the lines.
YOU ARE PROBABLYRIGHT
I would say that 179th Street/Hillside Ave station is more in Jamaica Estates than true Jamaica. Jamaica is really where the E/J/Z go.
No way is 207th Street in Washington Heights, unless that name gets applied to all of Upper Manhattan.
207 is Inwood and is shown as 207 Inwood on the Map.
We are talking about old R1-10 Signs on the Trains, back the days in 30-early 60s. My Grand Parents and Uncle, used of live just 2 blocks South of Dykman St off Broadway. When people asked where that was if we said Inwood, they did not know, if we said Washington Hts, then they knew.
The old IND destination signs generally showed the line and the last stop, e.g., 205th St. Concourse, 207th St. Washington Heights. I think it also showed Church St. Brooklyn and Lefferts Blvd. Fulton St., but I'm a bit shaky on these last two. It was only recently that the MTA decided the maps should show the last stop and the neighborhood in which it is located, and so we come up with the (I still think) pretentious 241st St. Wakefield, which used to be 241st St. White Plains Rd.
Hey, sorry I couldn't attend. Well anyway, I have finally figured out a few ways to tell the difference between the 2 cars. This is without using the unit numbers. These are very noticable. Around the storm door is a metal frame. The R142 has it cut into 2 pieces. The R142A has it all in one piece. Check it out here...
R142
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142-6310a.jpg
R142A
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-7211b.jpg
The interior of the cars features grab bars that are cut in 2 places. The first part funs from the bottom of the seat to a vertical bar. The second part runs from the vertical metal bar to the cieling. The upper portion of the bars are different on the cars. The R142 has the bottom pointing toward the outside of the car. The R142A has them pointing toward the center of the car. Check it out...
R142
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/tech/r142-testing.jpg
R142A
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-int-03.jpg
That's all I have for now. I think there may be a difference in the window frames including the cab. The pictures on the site aren't close enough to verify. When I get a chance to ride the R142 I'll know for sure. Many may have noticed that when the R142s were delivered they had a rubber frame around the storm door window. This has changed. The R142s and R142As both have metal frames now.
Mr. Pirmann, the following picture is incorrectly named and labeled...
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-ppw01.jpg
The storm door window frame is rubber. That was never on the R142As (as listed) The storm door frame is cut in 2 indicating a Bombardier R142. Congrats on the 5th year of the site. Thanks for it all.
Now... if I can figure out the difference between the R62s and R62As.
That's the...
running on...
's
requests and dediactions.
Aha! Finally, a reason to answer the question on everyone's mind:
Now... if I can figure out the difference between the R62s and R62As.
There are a few subtle differences, not counting the builder's plates and the car numbers. I assume you're already familiar with which cars are assigned to which routes, also.
The "saddles" at each door are different, R62s have a "bumpy" pattern (which is probably better for traction) and R62As have a series of perpendicular lines.
The rings surrounding the fault lights are small on R62s and large on R62As.
The speaker grille patterns are different, those on the R62s have a more linear pattern, those on R62As have a more circular pattern. (This one is difficult to explain, but you'll see what I mean if you examine both types.)
To aid sight-impaired subway buffs in identifying a car's type, the door chimes are slightly different (not counting broken door chimes, of course, although there is an R62A with a very unhealthy chime).
R62s are less likely to break down.
The air conditioning is colder on R62As.
Mark
And the air conditioning also has a distinct smell on the 62A's while it had almost no smell on the 62's. Its faded somewhat after 15 years, but is still there.
External PA on R62.
I posted a comprehensive list of every little detail a short while ago (about 15 total), but its not in the archives yet and is off the main board, so I can't link to it.
Everything you found is something I missed.
Okay, does anybody know the yards the 3 shuttles come from? I know 1 comes from Westchester Yard. Thanks.
That's the...
running on...
's
plea for an answer.
The 42nd Street is from Linovia and/or Lenox. I think the Franklin is from CI and I'm not sure about the Rockways.
The Rockaway Shuttle is out of Pitkin
No, actually, I meant, what yards are the 3 Shuttle Trains on the 42 Street Shuttle assigned to. There are 3 trains that plow the 42 Street shuttle. I know atleast 1 is from Westchester Yard. Just the color of the stickers on them will do. Thanks.
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections and continuing plea for help.
The R62A'S on the Grand Central Shuttle all come from Livonia Yard from the No.3 Line. Westchester Yard no longer controls the Shuttle. However Westchester did give Livonia Yard Cars 1896-1915. They may still have a Yellow sticker but will get the Blue sticker on it. Also I did see cars 1886-1890 over on Lenox as a Link bar.
Also, it should be remembered that subway cars are assigned to maintenance shops, not yards. Lenox Yard no longer has a shop (it once had the main shop of the IRT, 147th Street).
David
Normally, the Shuttle is one train broken down to the one 4-car and two 3-car consists you see on the Shuttle.
Over the last 3-4 years, I've come to really enjoy the time I spend here. I've enjoyed sharing and even learning a few things. I have at times been critical of posts that I disagreed with and have been argumentative when I felt it was warranted. I have met a few of you and have enjoyed those encounters, too. Over the past few months i have found heypauls attempts at humor, annoying to say the least. I found those who have jumped onto his moronic bandwagon and perpetuating the threads ad-nauseum equally annoying. I have even been subject to private e-mail attacks.
I still think that heypaul and his gang are not funny. I will not change that view. However, I have tried to back away and ignore it and return to normal dialog. They say never try to teach a pig to play tennis. It annoys the pig and wastes your time. Apparently, this is the case with dougie as little dougie wants to keep this going and I don't.
To make a long story short, the negatives here have begun to outweigh the positives and I've decided to vote myself off the island. To most of you, I say it's been fun. To paul, & dougie and the rest of the chorus, you win.
The quote is:
"Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it's a waste of time and it annoys the pig."
And Subtalk L*O*S*E*S Steve, Please reconsider. Subtalk is a diverse community, some members are interested in technical matters, some have an offbeat sense of humor,still others are historians -- the one common characteristic is that we are all fascinated by some aspect(s) of the NYC Subway. BTW, heypaul and the rest probably don't feel like winners in light of your decision, they are most likely saddened because this great community called Subtalk has been diminshed by the loss of one of it's greatest contributors.
There are a lot of very thoughtful comments here, John's is one of them. I hope you have read them all.
BTW, I didn't respond to you Sat. 14:38 post at heypaul's because I wanted to take the time to print it off and give it serious consideration before responding ... I'm glad I did.
P.S. They say nothing last forever, so maybe you've got all the enjoyment out of this site that it has to give you, so stay if you can & go if you must, but know that I too will miss your posts.
Mr t__:^)
Jeez, use your killfile and make heypaul, Doug and Pigs disappear. If you're gonna leave because of that, then don't let the door hit your butt on the way out.
Thin skinned....way to thin.
Hey, he never mentioned me as "the rest of the chorus." I've never taken either side in this humor business and I don't care.
I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being light on the technical details. But I enjoy the humor as long as it doesn't turn mean or stupid. Some of us (myself included) have an offbeat sense of humor.
American Movie Classics features The Three Stooges along with their classics. I enjoy the Stooges. If I didn't, should I tune out everything on AMC as well?
One of the things I've always liked about railfanning is its inclusiveness. I've been in it for almost half a century now, and I've seen it filled with people of every race, class, intellectual status and any other demographic you can think of, and that in eras when people in general were a lot more close-minded than today.
To each his, her, or its own.
[Over the past few months i have found heypauls attempts at humor, annoying to say the least. I found those who have jumped onto his moronic bandwagon and perpetuating the threads ad-nauseum equally annoying.]
If you don't like heypaul's stuff, just do as I did with Salaamallah and killfile him.
[To make a long story short, the negatives here have begun to outweigh the positives and I've decided to vote myself off the island. To most of you, I say it's been fun. To paul, & dougie and the rest of the chorus, you win.]
Steve, what have I said or done that is SO horrid or uncompromising that you have to 'throw in the towel'?
I appreciate your contributions to SubTalk in terms of your sharing your knowledge of the system from an 'insiders standpoint' with the rest of us.
Yes, I'll admit I engage in to much 'horseplay' and nonesensical banter from time to time.
I will promise to you (and my fellow SubTalkers) to cut out and/or reduce this as much as possible. Every now and then a little 'light subject matter' is appreciated as many a topic does get dragged out and repetitive to the point of it becoming irrelevant.
But you have to realize that alot of us SubTalkers have met in person, have become friends and are relaxed enough to enjoy some 'peanut gallery' shenanigans (sp?) among ourselves. I am sorry if alot of our horseplay detracts from some of our fellow SubTalkers more serious discussions. I for one will 'reel myself in' should I see my postings 'getting out of hand'.
Doug aka BMTman
Dude;
If you are posting your farewell to see if you have been appreciated in the past (like a potential jumper with one foot over the rail of a bridge), rest assured that your posts on the board were greatly appreciated by those of us who want to know what is going on in the TA and are mature enough to recognize that it is legitimate to have viewpoints which do not exactly match our own.
If in fact, you do choose to no longer participate in Subtalk, we will all be the losers, there will be no winner, including yourself. Give it some thought. Do not cut off your nose to spite your face. Why not just lurk in the background for a while, and when some interesting (to you) topic comes up, jump back in. If you feel you are taking too much heat from the geek chorus, change your handle. Your knowledge of the system will show through regardless of the handle you use.
There are already too many stupid threads on the board in the vein of "Why do they always put the roofs on the top of the cars?" posted by those who want to post something rather than those with a serious interest in the subways, and even serious threads are inflated with responses that say no more than "I agree" or "I think so also", or "You used the British spelling of a word". The loss a serious Subtalker diminishes the value of the board to all of us who want more than just a way to waste some time without spending money.
Tom
And what is wrong with British Spelling? :)
Absolutely naught.
:o) wayne
I do believe that this is exactly what people are complaining about. Way to disprove a point.
-Hank
I don't get it.
Naught doesn't mean not and both words exist in both versions of the language anyway. Complaining about his spelling would not be complaining about using British spelling but about something completely different.
My wife would say that your attitude here is just like the third graders she used to teach.
Take the advice of several others in this thread. Make use of the Killfile for the ones that get under your skin the most.
Your departure from the SubTalk community deprives all of us of a different viewpoint than we usually enconter, from a source that, at least for me, has always been the "Voice of Truth".
You tell it like it is, and I think everyone here appreciates it.
Think about this: If you leave, the ones that bug you win. Don't give 'em that victory.
I just HATE it when stuff like this happens.
wayne
Well my 2 cents worth. Considering you've shared a lot of knowledge I hate to see you go. There are some people out there that I like, but yes sometimes the bull gets too deep and wastes web site. I appreciate Doug's explanation. In my own case I've jumped in on political things and rattled on and then wished later I hadn't as I felt guilty for using a rail site to spout my views. And there have been several offenders in several areas. Maybe we should all stick to the topic and keep the peace. But, whatever you wish. I have no disputes with any party concerned; pass it over if you don't want to read it. Peace; big ed
Train Dude ....
I'm upset to see you go. There are a number of people who's posts are very meaningful, and yours is one of them. I appreciate getting views from individuals who have "the inside story" at NYC Transit, and I'll miss that perspective. Clearly you are very knowledgeable on that in which you post. I hope you'll reconsider and resort to the use of the "killfile" for those posts you don't want to see.
--Mark
I will miss your excellent insights and techo knowlege into the TA.
Man's gotta do what a Man's gotta do.
(I hope this does not effect MDF on the D line)
I know that I must be part of your chorous, but I don't feel I have won beause I didn't know I was playing the game. I feel that this site would be pretty boring if it only had technical data that interested a small fraction of the talkers instead of a mix of humour that can make all the talkers laugh (or scratch their heads.) I would be interested so see you post something that you do consider funny.
However I can't help thinking that the rod up your butt must have a rod up its butt.
I have not contributed to this thread thus far for a number of reasons, some of which are:
I don't know the people involved
Nobody cares to hear my opinion on the subject
There are enough off-topic posts without another from me
Et al.
Until Mon Aug 7 13:34:40 2000, all the posts were tasteful, and IMHO, all the posts were respectful except one, and I felt that one was neutral, not disrespectful. Then came Jersey Mike's coprophagous post.
Hey Mike: It's posts like this that make you APPEAR to be a flaming rectal orifice.
To other SubTalkers: I spent 9 hours with Jersey Mike (and also Chuck Greene and Bill Steil) subfanning in Philly on Saturday. I found Mike in person to be very knowledgeable with respect to rail and transit subjects, full of interesting stories (virtually nonstop) about trains and transit, and a lot of fun to be with.
Please pardon me for adding some more drek to this generally terrific message board and website.
Bob Vogel
Well if it makes it any bettre I got that comment from a Simpsons episode when Superintendant Chalmers described Skiner's inability to have any fun what-so-ever. I was hoping that more people would recogize my plageristic comment, remember the appropiate episode and note the connection of Train Dude to principle Skinner. I have a mental disorder in that I constantly need to use Simpsons expressions in daily life and Train Dude's ongoing reaction to humour proved too great a temptation. I realize that in a non-Sipson's litterate world my comment sounds more offensive than it really is, but I still stand by my position that Train Dude APPEARS TO BE INCAPABLE OF HAVING ANY FUN. Over the last month or so he have behaved like a complete jerk, insulting and being rude to those who seek only to bring enjoyment to others. If he'wants to storm off in a huff (which now appears to be a act) and in the process making everyone else feel sorta bad, then I get to to make a little dig about how rigid and serious he is. However, I appoligize for any offense taken that was above the level of offence intended (a mild zing).
Simpsons literacy is an oxyMORON, The Simpsons is where the Bullwinkle movie screen writers got the idea for VBTV -- KEEL THEIR BRAINS, BORIS
So you never saw the episode where they went to NYC? It was so funny.
"Dear motorist,
Your car is illegally parked at 1 World Trade Plaza. If you do not remedy this malparkage within 24 hours your car will be thrown into the East River at your expense."
No pizza, only Khar-Khalash!
oooohhhh, Flushing Meadows.
You have reached the NYC automated parking hotline. To enter a plea of not guilty please press 1 now. ::beep:: Your plea has been rejected, you will be assesed the full amount of the fine plus a small large lateness penalty. Please wait by your car between 9 and 5 for parking officer Steve Grabouski.
Talk about your pot-and-kettle...
-Hank
Hey, before this train Dude thing the only dig I had ever taken at a subtalker was that Subway Crash guy and maybe that SUV driving John guy from long Island.
I forget to check SubTalk for one day, and this is what I see when I return? I cannot believe that someone like you (going by my impression of you from posts alone) could let a little bad humor get under your skin like that. Then again, sometimes one little annoyance that is constantly present can drive anyone to drastic measures.
Does anyone have pictures or images of the station when it had 8 tracks. It's one thing to read how the station was before, but I would like to see a picture so I can visualize it.
Here's a picture fron 1964, showing the tracks coming from Manhattan into the upper level. As you can see, the 2nd Ave. el tracks coming off the Queensboro bridge still existed then, and you can also see where the BMT "swings" over to the southern platform the el train would have used pre 1942. The BMT tracks would have fed the now gone northern half. I believe this portion was still standing at the time of theis picture:
Thanks =)
I can't remember the BMT norther section of the QP station being there by the time the new World's Fair trains (shown here in the colors they belong in) arrived in 1964, though admittedly, I didn;t remember the disconnected tracks headed up to the Queensboro, either.
According to this website, the northern half was demolished in 1964. It's possible that the structre could have existed in some part with the new R36 cars running. The yellow caution flags on the BMT track indicate a work condition existing. Perhaps the demolition was happening at the same time this photo was shot. I NEVER saw any tracks remaining on the structure leading up to the Queensboro Bridge, so I assume they were removed when the northern platform was destroyed.
The north half of Queensboro Plaza was torn down as part of the sprucing up of the No. 7 line in preparation for the 1964 World's Fair. As I recall, by the time the "Bluebirds" (R33 and R36 WF cars) started arriving, the demolition was nearly complete.
-- Ed Sachs
That picture was dated in June of 1964, so I guess the northern platform demolition was just completed by that time. I wonder how long that abandoned trackage from the old 2nd Ave. el remained there, though. Kinda reminds me of the severed connection with the Myrtle Ave el just south of Broadway. Those severed tracks remained there until just a couple of years ago.
The short amount of abandoned trackage seen in the picture remained until the Queensboro Br was rehabbed in the late '80s.
--Mark
It definatley was NOT there in 1985. I would have taken notice of it.
Well, OK ... then whenever the bridge rehab started, maybe the early '80s.
--Mark
64 or slightly earlier would be about right. My mom worked at the Unemployment Office on the north side of the Plaza directly opposite the station.. I thought that the renovation was when I was in HS 64-67 since I remeber getting off the train and walking across the current open air overpass into the building. On occasions I would get a haircut from the barbers in the building and then use my train pass to continue home. The demo may have been just before 64. Unfortunately, mom is now in a nursing home, hearing is lousy and she is in the early stages of dementia so she wouldn't be of any help to clear up the mystery.
Can I just say: You guys are good!
:)Andrew
I rode the Flushing line to and from the World's Fair a number of times, starting in the spring of 1964. I remember noticing that, at Queensboro Plaza (lower level), the south side of the station had the old IRT style windscreen with the multiple windows, while the north side had a solid wall of reinforced glass - at the time, I didn't understand why. I guess it had recently been installed, but it was there from the first time I rode the line, which I think was April or May. Anyone know the dates that the World's Fair was open in 1964? I suspect the demolition of the north side of Queensboro Plaza was complete by opening day.
The fair opened on April 22, 1964. We had free passes and drove out there in my aunt an uncle's car, after which we couldn't find the damned thing in the new Shea Stadium parking lot for about half an hour. After that little disaster, it was the No. 7 train to the fair from then on.
Al;
The north portion of the Queensboro Plaza station was a mirror image of the south platforms which exist today. You could look across the platforms from one side to the other on both the upper and lower platforms. When it was built, it was built as one station even though the north half was exclusively BMT and the south half was exclusively IRT. There were no structural differences.
I do not remember seeing the station since they tore down the north half. Did they enclose the bottom tracks on the north side the same way they enclosed the bottom tracks on the south side of the south platform? Did they use the actual north wall of the original station?
Tom
There is a cement wall on the northern edge of the remaining (south) platform. Was there a cement divider when the north half was still there? There are also several glass "windows" in this wall.
>>> There is a cement wall on the northern edge of the remaining (south) platform. Was there a cement divider when the north half was still there? <<<
Chris;
Are you sure the north wall is cement and not some light weight material similar to the windscreen on the south side? I just ran Salaam's #7 Line video, and it certainly looks like a light windscreen rather than cement.
There was definitely no cement divider between the north and south platforms. Since this was an elevated station, a cement wall in the center would be impractical. The added weight of cement would be greater than structural steel.
My memory was that it was completely open, but it is probable that there were some vertical supporting girders between the center tracks on the lower level. After reviewing Salaam's tape, I see that there are vertical structural supports in the outer wall on the south side of the lower platform, spaced at the same distance as the vertical supports on the platforms. My guess is that there were also similar vertical supports between the two center tracks.
Tom
There is such a picture in a book called Old Queens, N.Y. in Early Photographs, by Vincent F. Seyfried and William Asadorian, on page 47. The view is from the NE corner looking towards the bridge. You can see the structure of the now-demolished north side, which does indeed look exactly like the south side. Unfortunately, you are on the wrong side to see the track configuration coming off the bridge. You can make out the track configuration as the line enters the borough, however. I would post it, but the book's copyrighted (1991), of course.
Page 45 has pix of the plaza before the Subway/El station was built, and boy did it look nice. You can even see some of the still-standing buildings as they looked in 1911 and 1912, one of which had a beautiful carillon, now lost. BTW, trolley buffs will find this book chock full of streetcar pix.
I got mine at Barnes & Noble in the city, but you can also get it here, at Amazon.com.
Here's an older one. The BMT north platform (now gone) is shown here, with a Triplex train arriving on the Manhattan-bound track. The surviving southern platform is also shown. The track with the worker walking on it is the present day trackway for the Astoria-bound N line. It used to be the track for arriving 2nd. Ave. el trains coming off the Queensboro bridge. Judging by the layers of rust on the rails of this track, showing it hasn't been used in recent times when this pic was shot, I'd date this picture after 1942, but before 1949:
>>> The BMT north platform (now gone) is shown here, with a Triplex train arriving on the Manhattan-bound track.
Chris;
When you look closely at the lower right portion of the picture it looks like the south platform is in the process of being shaved to allow the wider BMT cars. When the BMT wide cars terminated at Queensboro Plaza, they were using standards. My guess is that this picture was taken in 1949 after the Astoria line platforms were widened and just before the north side of the station was closed completely. Since the upper platform is usually for Queens bound trains this could be the tail end of an Astoria bound train.
BTW the clock tower in the background is no longer there. Does anyone know when it was torn down? That could help date the picture.
Tom
BTW the clock tower in the background is no longer there. Does anyone know when it was torn down? That could help date the picture.
Not only when, but why?!
When you look closely at the lower right portion of the picture it looks like the south platform is in the process of being shaved to allow the wider BMT cars. When the BMT wide cars terminated at Queensboro Plaza, they were using standards. My guess is that this picture was taken in 1949 after the Astoria line platforms were widened and just before the north side of the station was closed completely. Since the upper platform is usually for Queens bound trains this could be the tail end of an Astoria bound train.
Possible. But the Triplexes were used on the Brighton Local (as in picture) during the late 40s until about 1951 or so. So this may be a photo of a train heading for the layup track along Queens Blvd. to reverse. The south tracks on the N. platform were used for the BMT subway trains terminating there, with the trains arriving on the upper level, going out to the layup track, and departing from the lower level. The north tracks were used for the Astoria and Flushing shuttle trains.
Does anyone know if through service to Astoria ever operated via the north platform briefly in 1949? I always thought that on the day the through service started, the north platforms were abandoned.
-- Ed Sachs
08/08/2000
Looking at the pic it does look like the platforms on the right have been shaved back to accommodate BMT width cars. Also the protection board looks new. If this was the trackway for the 2nd Ave "el", didn't that line have exposed third rail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes indeed, so did the original BMT els. The Manhattan els had a sort of protection board outboard side of the 3rd rail but essentially it was still uncovered. If the platforms were shaved back perhaps 3rd rail was modified by then too?
Yes indeed, so did the original BMT els. The Manhattan els had a sort of protection board outboard side of the 3rd rail but essentially it was still uncovered. If the platforms were shaved back perhaps 3rd rail was modified by then too?
>>> If this was the trackway for the 2nd Ave "el" <<<
Bill;
I had posted in a previous thread that my recollection of the time between 1946-48 while the BMT was running Q-type cars to Flushing and Astoria, the north side of the south platform was used by the Q-type cars, and the upper north platform was closed.
If my recollection is correct, any change to the third rail would have occurred when the Q-types were put on that track.
It is speculation on my part, but I think they temporarily reopened the upper north platform after the end of the Q-type BMT service and the beginning of the direct through service to Astoria possibly because of track connections. The other possibility is that my memory is faulty, and they did not use the 2nd Ave. tracks until they completely closed the north platforms which was October, 1949 (according to information on this site).
A little further detective work shows that the time of the photo was 12:25 P.M. if the clock in the tower is working correctly, but there are relatively long shadows. This means the picture must have been taken in late fall or winter. This supports my earlier speculation that this photo was just before the north platform was closed.
An interesting aside when looking at the photo is the station lighting. The string of incandescent light along the edge of the platform, compared to the flourescent lighting in use today.
Tom
Dating this picture to the last days of northern platform service makes sense. That would create a reason for someone to photograph trains on the northern platform, with it's days numbered. Kinda like the flood of redbird pics we've seen lately.
i wanna know if i want to go to ,41st Ave,Long Island City, can i get off at Queen plaza ?
help!!!!!!!
That depends. Where to you want to go... up to what street. The B/Q/S stops at 21 Street and 41 Avenue.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
How often does a day go by when service goes exactly according to The Map?
There are no days that have no General Orders. Some don't affect service, but many do. During the rush hours, General Orders usually aren't in effect (except for very long-term stuff, like closure of the "H" tracks on the Manhattan Bridge); all other times are fair game.
David
Either a Motorman for the NYCsubway, or an LE for any RR
I've been both and enjoyed both NYCT and MRL. Check out the Dakota, Minnesota and Eastern, based at Brookings, SD I believe [?] I hear they're looking for help with a new coal line they're adding. This may be an apocryphal tale but you might look into it.
I have just had a look at the new R142 pictures posted by David Pirmann and taken on 27th July. One of them is an internal view looking towards the front. It shows what appears to be a railfan window with good views ahead. Are we to be reprieved, or is it a bit of carefull picture editing by David just to make me feel better ahead of Subway Tour No7 in November.
Simon
Swindon UK
The door to the cab is covered by a special film (to reflect glare from behind etc). You can see out the front window but the images might be slightly distorted because of the nature the the film covering. You cannot see the T/O (agian because of this special film).
It's polarized glass film, like that on the R68a's.
wayne
I notice a new track being place on the Rockaway Line between Howard Beach-JFK Station and Broad Channel Station - actually on Broad Channel just after the north access bridge. What gives with that?
Is this for layup of trains, or will there be an increase in traffic to the Rockaways?
I believe its the test track for the R-143. I guess the MTA, rather than use existing good track (Sea Beach), has decided to build new ones. Maybe they need to in this case to test CBTC and the Sea Beach has already been resignalled with normal ones (and is used for GOs).
Today's Daily News (Sunday 8/6/00, Lifelines section) has a nice article on subway art, with photos of some of the more interesting installations and a "self-guided tour."
I was thinking of going down to washington D.C. next week to ride the metro. From what I heard, they do around 80 in certain areas of the system. What lines or stratches are these. I would be fun going that fast on the subways.
Well, the land speed record for Metro is 79 but that was before they had problems with their automatic system. Now, the top speed is rarely above 70. For the record, here are some of the fastest stretches:
Red Line: between Dupont Cir. and Woodley Park
Red Line: between Medical Center and Grosvenor
Red Line: between Brookland and Fort Totten
Yellow Line: between Natl Airport and Braddock Road (Blue line too)
Green Line: between Fort Totten and West Hyattsville
Blue Line: between Stadium-Armory and Benning Road - also
between Natl Airport and Braddock Road, also
between Springfield-Franconia and Van Dorn Street
Orange Line: between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom (also Blue Line)
Enjoy your trip on the Metro!
wayne
My record was 77 (in manual) just south of Grosvenor. Places where the trains can go 75 MPH is north of Friendship Heights and between Union Station and Silver Spring on Red, Franconia-Springfield to National Airport (except between King Street and Braddock Road), Rosslyn to Foggy Bottom, and Stadium-Armory to Benning Road on Blue, Vienna/Fairfax-GMU to Ballston-MU, Rosslyn to Foggy Bottom, and Stadium-Armory to Minnesota Avenue on Orange, Braddock Road to National Airport on blue (but Pentagon to L'Enfant Plaza is a nice run but slow), and the green line has some fast spots north of Fort Totten.
Happy railfanning!
Hi Folks, I know this is a rather late time today to post this but 2 old LIRR Coaches, car # s 2924 & 2933 are now at the RRMLI. in Riverhead. If anyone plans to go out there be sure to get some good photos I plan to visit there someday. Hopefully before October. Regards, Tom.
Hey, Tom, don't worry Thurston, Lou (from Brooklyn) and myself saw those 2900 units sitting at the Riverhead Museum leads a couple of weeks ago when we were returning from our Seashore Trolley Museum trip/weekend vacation.
I think Lou has some shot of them -- I'll have to check with him tomorrow morning.
(PS I got your e-mail. I'll give you details on things shortly).
Doug aka BMTman
Also if you go the RMLI web site there a link to the engin 35 site which has photos of most of the equip. at Riverhead & Greenport.
And note that the TrainLand show on public TV now has a 8 PM Fri slot to add to their Thur. 4 PM & Sat 4:30 slots (at least on #71 on LI). Sometimes their show re-runs for more then a month, looks like I missed their NY&Atl film down the Bay Ridge.
Mr t__:^)
When a southbound D train pulls into Bedford Pk. Blvd. (the second station on the line), the T/O will generally "dump" the train, and the train will then sit there for a minute or two before proceeding - perhaps with a different crew than the one that brought it from 205th St. What is the reason for this? Bedford Pk. is not a terminal for the D, so why is it treated like one?
Bedford Park, for all intents and purposes is the 'terminal' for the "D". Do not know the exact reason, although I believe it has something to do with the fact that the line was intended to go further than 205th St. and the location of Concourse Yard. A number of years ago they tried changing crews on the uptown side for a while, it was an absolute disaster. I imagine the person responsible for that decision is now a CTA.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't this similar to Chambers St (1/2/3/9), where the train waits for a while at South Ferry but there's no crew change until Chambers St? (It's been a while so I may be wrong here ....)
--Mark
I've never seen a crew change at SF or Chambers. This is the usual sequence:
Chambers St. Downtown: Holding Lights until 1 or 2 express connections are made.
South Ferry: Holding Lights for anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes, I also noticed that 5 trains rarely turn if there is no 1/9 held in the station.
Chambers St Uptown: Departure lights and bell, come on after approx. 2 minute wait.
At no point do I see a crew change. They probably do have them, during off hours.
I've worked the Broadway local, 25 or so years ago, and crews were never changed en route. Out of Van Cortlandt it was 3 trips around the ferry,to and from 242 St. (on most runs) I assume this practice has never changed, no reason for it.
Thats true nothing has changed exept that your call letters are from Chambers instead of South Ferry.
Last week I though I saw a Q train on the Broadway line on more than one day at about the same time. Does anyone know if there is now a scheduled Q on the Broadway line. If so, what is the schedule, especially when it's supposed to arrive at the World Trade Center (Cortland Street) station.
Read down a few threads until you find one about the BROADWAY EXPRESS (it's in all caps :)
-Dave
There were 4, approx ever 15 mins starting wuth the 4:48 from Queensbridge. I don't think they're running them anymore, because they're back to the weekday shuttles.
The second is 1705. They are the four pullouts from the tunnel extension layups.
Hello, there. Does anyone know whether the Myrtle Ave. switching project is completed? The shuttles were already suspended 8/5-8/7. Will there be shuttle service for the next two weekends?
Normal service has returned. I believe the project is complete or finished far enough to not require the weekend GO's.
Last night I took out my SEPTA Regional Rail timetables and my TI-83 calculator and figured out the average speed for all the Regional Rail lines from the orgin to the 1st centre city station. Well some routes like the R7 to Trenton and the R2 to Newark had quite respectable times around 40mph start to stop. The R5 was hovering about 35 mph. Express trains were 2-5 mph better. However some routes were just alway. The R@ warminster and R8 and R7 Chesnut Hill east all had average speeds between 22 and 25 mph. How does a 22 mpg average speed compare with a trip via car. As John K Commuter I would think that in normal rush hour traffic I could beat 22 mph. Does anyone have statictis for average commute speed in a car? How does Metro North, NJT or the LIAR compare? I am computing average speed correctly?
"SEPTA: We're getting there. Eventually"
Years ago SEPTA had a race with Thacher Longstreth (a very popular city councilman) taking the Reading-Philly train from Port Kennedy racing a car that went straight in the Schuylkill Expressway during morning rush hour. The train was late. The car won.
There are many variables with driving, of course. One overturned tractor trailer can add 3 hours to the commute on I95 or the Blue Route/Sure-kill Expressway.
I was at Mineola today with my Mom, and we left just as the Oyster Bay train was leaving. As we passed Roslyn, it appeared the train had not
come yet, and the gates were just coming down.
I've even beaten OB trains on the N23 bus to Mineola!!
Those trains are so freakin SLOW!!
The denver post just did a light rail/car/bike/bus race from downtown to a point along the newly opened light rail route. The light rail came in first, with the others following in the order I listed. Nice to see good publicity!
"How does a 22 mpg average speed compare with a trip via car. As John K Commuter I would think that in normal rush hour traffic I could beat 22 mph."
I think you're underestimating the effect of rush hour. :^) Seriously, while you may be right that in most cities outside New York City, traffic goes faster than 22mph outside rush-hour,
1) Average speed (distance divided by time) includes time spent at dead stop at red lights and stop signs, just as train average speed includes time spent at dead stop at stations and red signals.
2) Rush hour traffic can truly be a parking lot, and the limited-access roads (freeways/expressways/parkways) in some cities are getting that way more and more outside of rush-hours. I was stop-and-go on the Kennedy Expressway yesterday, a Sunday, about 7pm.
And speaking of parking lots, that's the other factor in commuters choosing trains over driving even when they have a car. Even if I could drive into downtown Chicago faster than I could drive -- which is impossible during the week but usually true on weekends -- I don't because the parking rates would gag a Rockefeller. Even on the weekend, it's not cheap. (Free parking on weekends? That's when parts of downtown Chicago are at their busiest! No way will they NOT charge for parking on weekends.) I only drive downtown (1) on weekends AND (2) if I'm NOT going to be parking, only picking up or dropping off someone or something.
The reason why SEPTA's regional rail is slow is because SEPTA forgot to lift the speed restrictions after Railworks and rail replacement on branch lines. I take the R2 to Wilmington every Saturday to play The Powerball (I have a TransPass, so all the trip cost me is a dollar, so I'm not a compulsive gambler), and the train starts flying at maybe 90 mph once the train switches tracks beyond Claymont.
SEPTA is slow because it has a lot of stops and a lot of trains on realtively few tracks. Plus it hasn't upgraded for speed on the Reading Main despite rebuilding it.
Nevertheless ... I used to live in Mt. Airy, along the R8. The train was carded at about 25 minutes to Suburban Station and driving time was regularly 20 to 30 minutes, non-rush hour. From the northern suburbs driving is much worse because not only is there no freeway, but all the roads go SE-NW and NE-SW, making driving 40% longer when heading into the city. The fastest routes you mention are on Amtraks NEC and coincidentally are parallel to the major expressways.
Andrew Byler
DVARP has been making noise about this forever. They say - and I mostly agree - that septa has too many stations, many with ultra low ridership, and this is the big factor in slowing them down compared to other commuter systems. I think the lack of emphasis on these things does not help- doesn't seem like SEPTA really cares about speed.
If they had any money, they should build new and exciting stations with parking (and maybe hi level platforms) and use that as an excuse to close down lightly used stations - i.e. close down two dilapidated stations and open one new station in between. Who would want to get on the train at some of those "stations" on the trenton line?
Hey! I ride from Tacony all the time when visiting my dad in Jersey from my apartment in NYC.
SEPTA is nice in many ways because the many stations make it convenient to walk to them, rather than have to drive.
Most of the worst offenders though, have been closed and many others turned into flag stops. The list of the recently fallen, such as Tioga, Nicetown, Fulmor, Fellwick, Shawmont, Mogees, Westmoreland, Frankford, Frankford Jct., Andalusia, Fern Rock (the old one), Olney, Logan, etc. is long. And this is just recent years, it doesn't inlcude all the stops closed around 1980 from the recession and desindustrialization of the region; do you remember Trainer, Ivy Rock, Naamans, Edge Moor, 52nd St., Spring Garden, and others (there are more!)???
I often ask people who bring this up, what other stops they want to close.
Andrew Byler
There is a push to re-open 52nd St due to the heavy reverse commute from West Phila to Main Line employment areas. One of the major purposes of 52nd St in days gone by was for servants/domestics who lived in West Phila to reach the mansions of the Main Line where they toiled. History repeats itself, in a fashion?
Many of the peak SEPTA trains skip up to 5 stations on any given line. Some designated express trains skip up to 10 stations. I calculated average speed for loacls as well as express trains and the difference was only about 2-5 mph better.
on the R7 most trains use Eddington, Bridesburg, and Wissinoming as either flag stops or dont stop at all.
Andalusia was closed due to low ridership. The two Frankford stations were closed for safety concerns. (SOURCE: SEPTA.)
tonight at 8 on channel 13, david hartman and historian barry lewis will be hosting a documentary called " a walk around brooklyn"... it will be 3 hours long... i don't know if the program will be interrrupted with fund raising, or it will be a full 3 hours on brooklyn... there are no segments on my motorman's compartment, because at the time of their filming it was being used as a setting for an upcoming episode of the outer limits...
the program will be reaired on 3 separate days this week... wed, thurs, and friday at varying times... check your newspapers, tv guide, or the f.b.i. for exact times...
To add to this thread, I should have mentioned at heypaul's SubTalk gathering that this show was coming up since just two days earlier here at Borough Hall, David Hartman and the producers of "A Walk Through Brooklyn" had a gala kick-off celebration (with food catered by Gage and Tollner restaurant) that featured a large-projection screening of the first segment in the Courtroom.
I should also have brought a bunch of advertisement postcards to Paul's place for distribution on this PBS special.
BTW, word is out that a second or third series on Brooklyn will be made due to the large amount of historical info and interesting neighborhoods that could not be fitted into this installment.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>BTW, word is out that a second or third series on Brooklyn will be made due to the
large amount of historical info and interesting neighborhoods that could not be fitted
into this installment. <<<
I really think those guys could use the assistance of ...
www.forgotten-ny.com
on any further segments. I emailed Barry Lewis once, but he didn't get back. However, I do know Lee Rosenzweig, whose books with Brian Merlis were referenced on the credits, so maybe I can get in that way.
Kevin, good luck to you. I was surprised that more of Merlis' photos weren't used.
BTW, they pretty-much "forgot" (sorry for the shameless plug) to cover south-eastern Brooklyn. Notice there was no mention of East New York, New Lots, Flatlands, Canarsie or even Marine Park or Mill Basin and Georgetown (Pigs lets lead a protest against NET!).
Yes, another segment would be in order.
And the program could even use the assitance of: www.rapidtransit.com to set them straight on giving more coverage to Brooklyn's old steam lines that paved the way for the migrating masses to reach the outer towns of Brooklyn in the pre-1898 period.
Doug aka BMTman
The problem is that they made a show entirely about Brooklyn, like they did about Harlem, Broadway and 42nd Street. Brooklyn is a lot bigger than any of those things.
They should go back to using streets.
A walk down Flatbush Avenue
A walk down 4th Avenue
A walk down Atlantic Avenue
Couple of mistakes -- they identified Fulton Street as "the Kings Highway", without mentioning the actual Kings Highway as an important road. Manhtattan Centric -- Kings Highway is the most important road that does not go to Manhattan.
I never thought of Park Slope as an "Arts and Crafts" area, but he is the architect not me.
Thanks for reminding me, I set my VCR.
I missed the Walk through Harlem because I wasn't paying attention (maybe I DO need to install WebTV).
yeah, pigs... you have to stay on top of these things... we're counting on you to monitor the show and make sure that they give due credit to the role that animals with snouts had in the development of greater brooklyn...
...animals with snouts had in the development of greater brooklyn...
It's nice to see that someone agrees with me about Brooklyn being greater!
Yes, it's true.
As a matter of fact the area around Empire Boulevard (when it was originally named Malbone Street) was called 'Pigstown' for the fact that the neighborhood abounded with pig farms.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, in fact Ebbets Field was built on the site of the Pigtown garbage dump in 1913.
Furthermore, my dad and I were pissed when they said "Well, we've done Brooklyn" without any mention of ENY, New Lots, Brownsville, Canarsie, and others.
Little or no mention of the Broadway El or Pitkin Av., etc., which would have at least made an attempt to complete the borough.
And yes, I was happy that I immediately recognized Marcy Av. station the second it came on. But that was an easy one.
I almost forgot: they left out a BIG neighborhood -- SHEEPSHEAD BAY!
(How could anybody forget Sheepshead Bay and it's landmark Lundy's Restaurant, the comedy club Pips and the famous dockside area).
Heypaul, if you're reading this give WNET a call and demand a special show for your 'hood!
Doug aka BMTman
i think i'll take this opportunity to bring my special brand of negativity to discuss this program... i got to watch about half of it, as i had a couple of phone calls from former students demanding their money back... i found the program at times to be too intellectually informative... it did not convey an emotional feeling of the lives of people... i guess i am comparing it to another series that channel 21 did on the city, which was less historical and depended more on people's memories of the 40's and 50's... cousin brucie was part of one on brooklyn that was much more nostalgic... but i guess i am not being fair to compare one formatted series with a more historically aimed one... so maybe i'll attack david hartman and barry lewis instead... i wish david hartman wasn't so upbeat... but you've heard all this kind of crap from me when i talk about transit transit... i don't know why i am this way?... i yearned for all the mounted pictures that david hartman was holding to fall down on the ground... or for them to be out of order and they would both get flustered... or perhaps for david hartman to look bored or look at his watch... i'll have to watch it again... when did i say it was on again?
"i wish david hartman wasn't so upbeat"
The press never provides a balanced view. In 1990, the press said New York City was hell on earth (it wasn't) and now they say it's paradise (it isn't). I guess if they are going to put out a myth, better a positive one than a negative one.
Perhaps they'll talk about the downside of Brooklyn when they discuss East New York/Browsville in a future episode. If the Manhattan Bridge doesn't fall down and present trends continue, most of Brooklyn will probably be working to upper middle class again in 50 years. But not those areas.
>>>Furthermore, my dad and I were pissed when they said "Well, we've done Brooklyn"
without any mention of ENY, New Lots, Brownsville, Canarsie, and others.
Little or no mention of the Broadway El or Pitkin Av., etc., which would have at least
made an attempt to complete the borough. <<<
Remember, this was Part One, implying that there will be Part Two if we be good and pledge money...
www.forgotten-ny.com
My wife and I are looking foward to it. Although there has been a pledge drive going on.
Will this show be shown in the rest of the country? Most notably Chicago?
The MBTA is set to hike fares, and (so they say) improve services. Here's the story from the Boston Globe.
It should be nice to get all new cars on the blue line and more cars on the orange line. But don't forget America's oldest subway line either! At the "Urban Ring" meeting that I attended I asked about the possibility of triple cars being run on the Green Line. The officials said that a study was going to wrap up this fall as far as passenger flow on the green line is concerned. If triple cars are necessary, the T may need to add more electrical power so the trains will run normally. -Nick
<< If triple cars are necessary, the T may need to add more electrical power so the trains will run normally. >>
Why? I recall seeing three-car PCCs run all the time during rush hour on the Green Line, especially out to Riverside.
All the LRV's now in use on the Green Line are considerably larger than a typical PCC car, and have three trucks each. I'd guess that two present-day Green Line LRV's are roughly equivalent to three PCC's in terms of size, weight and power (but still grossly inadequate for current passenger demand, IMO). Maybe somebody with a lot more knowledge about LRV's and PCC's could enlighten us. Todd??
-- David
Boston, MA
I think you are on the right track, David!
In addition to power requirements, remember that 3-car trains of LRVs require more labor: you need an operator in every car, and right now the T doesn't have a lot of extra staff during rush hours.
>>operator in every car<< ? has Sprague MU been abolished by union fiat?
<< >>operator in every car<< ? has Sprague MU been abolished by union fiat? >>
They collect fares.
Correct -- they collect fares on the surface portions of the lines. In addition, they say it's "for safety." If someone tries to jump the coupler to get from one side of the train to the other, the operator in the trailer car can hit the Big Red Button (aka the MUSHROOM) and force an emergency application of the brakes.
well, let's hear it for POP!. I am not looking to unemploy people, rather to have the workers operate more cars per hour and get better throughput.
At 1.5 square foot per pax (very tight loading) a Wartime PCC is considered at crush load with 130 people. An LRV or Type 7 is maxed at 269. So even allowing a bit of leeway with the numbers, 2 LRVs still outload 3 PCCs.
They should also convert the Fairmount commuter line to light rail, maybe connect it to the Green Line and make it the new A branch. I always thought it was dumb that there's no A branch (though there used to be one).
I think the "Silver Line" is a crock.
There's an interesting new sign on the fare control mezzanine of the South Station Red Line station. It says "Please excuse our construction -- new SILVER LINE COMING SOON."
Yes, the place is a mess. But coming soon? I don't think a number of years is "soon."
And yes, Dave, I agree with you. It's a lousy compromise. The MBTA and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts should uphold their promise to replace the old Orange Line el with quiet, clean, efficient light rail service. But instead, we're going to get "alternative" buses, with little advantage.
SO, what is the "silver line" to be?
Joe C.
Alternative fuel buses that run (at various times) in busways, on the street, and in dedicated tunnels. Portions are tentatively to be electric (trackless trolley) but I'll believe that when I see it. There will be two sections, one along the Washington Street corridor, and the other from South Station to the Fan Pier area of South Boston. Here's the latest propaganda I could find:
"The creation of the MBTA Silver Line, an innovative rubber-tire rapid transit service which will ultimately link the Washington Street Corridor and the South Boston Piers Transitway together providing a direct link to Logan Airport. By linking residential areas to key employment areas downtown as well as the Airport, the Silver Line will boost the economy of those neighborhoods and improve Boston’s economy as a whole. This new service will be operating along Washington Street in December, 2001 and the Transitway portion of the project in South Boston will be operating in 2003."
Note the word "ultimately." The two sections described above are under construction. But making the connection between the two, with the final link to the airport, is "in the future," as is the "option to convert to light rail." I think we'll see the 2nd Avenue Subway finished first :-)
What is this love affair these agencies have with cng, and busways. I, too, approve of busways, if handled properly and when no alternative is viable. One sure way to make a hit would be the "tube" bus system NY demonstrated about 8-9 years ago. The Curitiba buses were great, perhaps not for a city street as NY's but for a small corridor as proposed by the T. That would show potential passengers that they rate more than "just a bus", even if the bus is 60 feet long!
Additionally, is there really a reason to scrap the whole fleet of Blue line cars? (we've been there before, not that long ago, on both the blue and orange lines). These cars operate just fine and are not old. If the T wants to beef up service on both lines, order a supplemental fleet for the Blue, take the "spillover" from the Blue and modify for service on the Orange. By the way, what ever did happen to all the old St Louis and Pullman cars? Any museums grab any?
Yup, Seashore has a number of the old Blue Line cars. From our roster:
0512/0513 1923 Pullman Car. Co. (operable with some minor brake work last I checked)
0546/0547 1924 Pullman Car. Co.
0559/0562 1951 St. Louis Car. Co.
Hey Todd, did anyone pick up a P.S. Orange line car(s)? Hated to see all those things go. They were all so close to class K H&M cars.
Joe
Seashore has a pair: 01178/01179, 1958 Pullman Standards.
Here's a link to the entire Seashore collection.
Plenty of buzzwords, no meat. I read some of the reports that "proved" the superiority of the rubber tired systems over rail. Complete politico doublespeak b***s***. These reports were no doubt from the same hacks that proved that the Watertown line was impossible to run with LRV's. I read closely, and realized that they did all of their computations based on PCC capacities and door widths, even though the entire fleet (except Mattapan) had been long retired by that point (mid-90's).
After moving from Boston to NYC the major difference I see is that altough people complain about the transportation in both cities, New Yorkers, as a rule, tend to see that value of it a lot more. (Begrudgingly in some cases)
Dave
Exactly. Its like saying: "We hear your request for light rail service, and are giving you some very expensive busses - that's that same right?" It seems like there are plenty of people in Boston who would gladly get rid of all public transit.
Just spent two weeks in the Northwest. A couple of items to report.
MAX (Portland) - Got my first ride on the Westside extension. A great line! The Washington Park station (260' below ground) is quite interesting. Noticed that GO's are already in place for switch replacement at the Hillsboro terminal (paving is removed and rail is exposed - apparently there were some problems with the original turnouts which have only been in use for 2 years!). Also some GO's for elevator work at 3 Eastside stations (Hollywood, 60th Ave and 82nd Ave).
From one end to the other is a nearly 2-hour ride (schedules call for minimun 1 hour 50 mins) at $1.45 each way - a bargain. Peak hour schedules get a little complicated with a couple of turnbacks WB at the former downtown turnback (12th Ave) and more at Beaverton Transit Center (3-track station), a couple of eastbound shorts at Gateway and many post-peak put-outs at Ruby Junction and Merlo-158th.
There is a problem with the low-floor cars' articulation joint which apparently causes more noise than anything else. Notices are in the cars alerting riders to this.
Work is continuing on the Airport extension, scheduled to open next year. Wire is up close to the Airport but not close to Gateway, where the line will branch off the main route. A long curved structure over I-205 is being completed near Gateway. Not sure what the new service will be - the speculation appears to be that single-car (low floor) service will operate from downtown (12th Ave) to the Airport with normal two-car Gresham-Hillsboro service remaining on the main line. (I've also heard that shuttles will run Gateway-Airport in late hours.)
Portland Streetcar - tracks are in, wire is going up but cars won't be in town until February '01 at the earliest. There is a connection between this and MAX at 11th & Morrison. Apparently the replica Vintage cars will run on this line in addition to the Skoda cars now being built.
For you baseball fans, Seattle's Safeco Field has BNSF tracks practically running beneath the right field stands. Many freights and Amtrak runs pass through here. You may have heard the whistles if you've watched games on TV as there are several street crossings in the area (which also ties up game traffic!).
Also, forgot to mention the new home of the Oregon Electric Railway Museum in Brooks, just north of Salem. It's just starting but is worth a visit if you're in the area.
I usually spend my traditional weeklong midsummer vacation on a nice uncrowded Jones Beach, but the prolonged rain 'n' gloom made it much more desirable to do some rail tripping.
When I saw Monday the 31st was a literal washout, I headed for Fordham to get the first of three trains to Danbury, a branch I last rode in 1989 and have little memory of. Metro North's discounted contra-rush hour fares from Fordham to points north is a smashing success judging from the mobs of people backed up the stairs from the northbound platform.
Got the 7:27 local to Stamford, which was already packed with people from Grand Central. A lot of the cell-phone-ad-briefcase set got off at Mamaroneck, Harrison and Rye, where those cute SUV-type employee transports were waiting. It seems like Westchester employers do a lot more to accomodate reverse commuters coming by train than do Long Island firms.
Took a forty-one minute between-train breakfast break at Stamford, whose station seems permanently under construction. Noticed many diesels headed for Grand Central. I thought peak hour through diesels only originated from Danbury and Waterbury, but there seemed to be too many of them to be coming just from those places. Could there be any diesels originating from New Canaan or mainline destinations?
Got the diesel shuttle at South Norwalk, which seems to have gentrified a lot in recent years. I glimpsed one street sign pointing you to 'SoNo', which of course says "This is our new trendy area", a la SoHo, TriBeCa, NoHo, LoBro, SoMa. Anyway, the station building is enormous, more appropriate for a metropolitan Amtrak terminal than a small city's commuter station.
As soon as we peeled off the main line, the horn started. For those people who think there are no grade crossings in Connecticut, just meander up a branch line. Even in the more urban areas of Norwalk there are quite a few, and not just in industrial areas. The Danbury branch crosses some very busy streets adjacent to apartment complexes and shopping centers.
After Merritt 7, which is surrounded by large office parks and excavations for more office parks, the ambience turned very rural. The train itself seemed to abound with domestic workers, many of whom were met by large luxury cars and SUVs at each stop, especially the very wealthy Weston and Cannondale.
It looked like the original Danbury station has now been taken over by the railway museum, because the new station is before the sweeping curve I remember, and is much further back from the main drag- Elm Street? White Street? Unfortunately, the museum is closed on Mondays, but a glance in the yards looked interesting enough to consider as a future expedition.
There was only a forty-minute layover, during which time the train I was on discharged, moved ahead to a siding next to the museum yards and remained laid up until it returned to the station five minutes before departure time.
Unusually, the return train terminated at Stamford rather than South Norwalk. Maybe this is so it would go into the yard just north of Stamford for servicing. I changed there for the New Canaan shuttle, another branch I hadn't done in awhile. It's a short branch, just one track, with four stations close together, but seems to do a lot of business judging from the packed parking lots. Again, there were many crossings in congested areas, even in tony New Canaan itself. I had hoped to explore the town till the following train an hour and twenty minutes later, but the heavy rain made that impossible, so I just headed back.
Waited for the local back to Fordham, while the diesel I took to and from Danbury leisurely putted northbound through the station without stopping. Perhaps it was laid up somewhere between Stamford and Old Greenwich? The PA was announcing the D.C.-bound Amtrak as running two hours late "due to the weather". Funny, I heard the same two-hours-late announcement earlier while waiting for the connection to New Canaan. My return train was right on time, and I got the front window all the way back to Fordham.
The rain let up a little by then, so I treated myself to a speedy BX29 from Pelham Bay to City Island and back. (A recent discussion on the virtues of maritime Bronx has whetted my appetite.)
The weather reports were promising good weather for the rest of the week. HA!
[It seems like Westchester employers do a lot more to accomodate reverse commuters coming by train than do Long Island firms.]
Not that they could do much LESS :-)
[Took a forty-one minute between-train breakfast break at Stamford, whose station seems permanently under construction. Noticed many diesels headed for Grand Central. I thought peak hour through diesels only originated from Danbury and Waterbury, but there seemed to be too many of them to be coming just from those places. Could there be any diesels originating from New Canaan or mainline destinations?]
As far as I know, the only through diesels on the New Haven line come from Danbury. Waterbury trains venture no farther south than Bridgeport. Dunno why there were so many.
[Got the diesel shuttle at South Norwalk, which seems to have gentrified a lot in recent years. I glimpsed one street sign pointing
you to 'SoNo', which of course says "This is our new trendy area", a la SoHo, TriBeCa, NoHo, LoBro, SoMa. Anyway, the station building is enormous, more appropriate for a metropolitan Amtrak terminal than a small city's commuter station.]
South Norwalk does quite a bit of park 'n' ride business. I believe that nonresident parking permits for the station garage actually exist - in contrast to nonresident permits at other Connecticut rail stations, which are in a category with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
BTW, the gentrification of South Norwalk may seem like something new, but it isn't. It started back in the early to middle 1980's and really took off after completion of the Maritime Center near the end of that decade.
[After Merritt 7, which is surrounded by large office parks and excavations for more office parks, the ambience turned very rural. The train itself seemed to abound with domestic workers, many of whom were met by large luxury cars and SUVs at each stop, especially the very wealthy Weston and Cannondale.]
If the "Super 7" (conversion of U.S.7 to a limited-access highway) ever becomes a reality, the area along the Danbury line probably would develop even faster. Breaths should not be held, as Super 7 is sort of like the Second Avenue subway, all-talk-no-action.
Needless to say, the wealthy and politically influential people living in the area, or some of them at least, have pretty effectively blocked any progress on Super 7. It's funny, when you think about it. Rich and influential people seem to be able to use their $$$ and influence only in a negative sense. The big shots in Fairfield County can block Super 7, but the big shots on the Upper East Side can't get the Second Avenue line built.
Unusually, the return train terminated at Stamford rather than South Norwalk.
I beleive several shuttles are now extended to Stamford, for connection with the locals. This might explain the extra deisel trains. When I first looked at the main schedule, I thought it strange to run trains that start in Stamford and go to South Norwalk, express. It all made sense after I read the Danbury Branch table.
There was a published article in the Rocky Mountain News last week which stated RTD would trot out the four spare LRVs they keep on hand during rush hours due to higher-than-expected passenger volume on the new Southwest Corridor. People have complained that two-car trains originating at Mineral Ave. are packed by the time they get to Broadway, and the official word is that they will try to run 3-car trains as much as possible during rush hours. Sounds as if RTD may have to order even more LRVs; they're going to have to anyway once the Central Platte Valley Spur opens next year - assuming construction begins now.
RTD even took out a full-page ad in yesterday's News, thanking Denverites for the early success of the new extension. The ad pointed out that daily ridership has exceeded initial expectations by 24%, 28,000 vs an expected 22,000.
I was there, 10:50AM at 96th street on the 2 and waited till 11:30 for the R142 but nope, it didn't come. Pissed off, I got on the next 2 and took it to Wall Street, walked around and ended up at BB on the 6, tried to catch the 1:42PM R142 but nope, didn't come, I was there from 1:30-2PM, took the 6(Car num 1328:-) ) home. Heh, what a wonderful day:-).. By the way, does anyone know where they were today?
--Clayton Parker--
Today I was out in the system. And some bad crap went down!
And it went as such......
9:59am Boarded R-110B Car #3006 at 168th Street
10:01am R-110B Takes off on C line
10:26am Arrive at 96th Street Station and Alight train
*Notes: Very good ride, no problems
Crossed town to the Broadway line and met up with Clayton (Mista M86) and we waited at 96th Street together until 11:26am and nada showed (VERY DISAPOINTED), we rode down together on Redbird #9086, I alighted at Park Place to make connections with the R-110B again for it's northbound trip and here is where the trouble began..........
11:52am R-110B arrives at Chambers, board car #3001, seems problemless until......
12:02pm R-110B stops just short of the platform at West 4th Street.
12:03pm Lights on car #3001 and #3002 go out, conductor comes over the intercom and says we are experiencing technial difficulties with our eletrical system, no sweat it's just lights, plus the Interior message board was providing enough light.
12:06pm R-110B Proceeds into West 4th, as Car #3002 hits the platform the light return
12:07pm R-110B comes to a complete normal stop...BUT We now have a bigger issue. THE FREAKIN' DOORS DID NOT OPEN, we were stuck on this car until 12:11pm when a technician riding the train came through and opened our the doors manually.
12:08pm Conductor announces Train Is Out Of Service.
DAMMIT!
So if your going R-110B Hunting in the next two or three days, don't count on seeing it!
Trevor Logan
Nice cars...... too bad the guts of it are made of tissue paper,rubberbands andpaperclips
Wow, the train went out of service 3 minutes before the doors opened, must have been terrifying for the passengers to hear "This train is out of service, all off, going to the yard," yet they couldn't get out, but saw the people in the other cars leaving. But, isn't the C/R in 3001 on the northbound trip? And, to get people out, couldn't they remotely unlock the storm doors and tell everyone to "WALK THRU TRAIN?"
BTW: What is the status on the 110A, couldn't see it in Wakefield or 180th today, when will it go in service?
Terrifying is a pure understatement, the dumb conductor left the PA on and you can hear they whole conversation between him and the Control Center, they made it sound like a terrorist was taking over the train. When the doors opened at 12:11pm, it was like the mass exit, i've never witnessed a train get alighted so fast!
Trevor
Should have been at Fulton on the Lex. about Nov. 63 when one of my beloved old IRT Steinways (4766) blew up from a grounded shoe beam or bus line. And I let a few SMEE's go by waiting for it. Oh well, took a E and D combination home to the Bronx; at least had R9's, didn't want to settle for a SMEE. But.. fire, thick black smoke, man did those people run up the stairs., me too. Maybe the solution to the R110 B is bring back the R9's! No, I told another guy I've woke up. How about R40's? Simplicity is durable.( Wouldn't mind seeing new R9's)
Simple solution: build the R143 cars to look like R9 cars.
I saw the R131 cars pass through the 34th Street station on the express track. All signs said "Not In Service."
That must've been after we alighted, when we alighted the NTT R-110B/R-131, there was a Northbound (A) arriving on the express platform, 5229 as the head car. The must've sent the NTT R-110B/R-131 up the track behind us to the yard.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The r142a had link bar problems, the r142 has PA problems both were out of service today.
So what's the status of the 30-day clock on each set?
Back to day 1
does that reset the clock on the kawasakis?
Yes it does and to think that it all happens on my Vacation.
It left 241st at 6:15, it had sat there for 15 minutes, and the in station announcement (not the train) was "The rustbucket arriving on track 2 will be leaving first." I'm dead serious about this one. He repeated himself several times. I had boarded it at about 5:50 heading northbound from 219 st.
BTW, this was PM.
>>The r142a had link bar problem...r142 has PA problems
>> both were out of service today.....
YyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeesSSSSS!!
Even as far away as Champaign, IL
that is MUSIC TO MY EARS!!
Wait a minute. You're not in Champaign, are you? And if you are, do I know you?
I am planning to attend my High School s reunion in Great Neck this Fall, I will be driving from White Plains to Great Neck. Can someone please tell me, what the tolls are on the 3 Bronx-Queens Bridges, is it in both directions? Also the Toll on the George Washington to the City, and in what direction. This is to hey Paul now, If I am coming from Hawaii, you can go from Brooklyn. I will even pick you up if you don t have a car
The Triborough, Whitestone, and Throgs Neck Bridges are each $3.50 each way, $3 with E-ZPass. The GWB is $4 eastbound, $3.60 with E-ZPass.
The GWB is $2.50 with the PA All Bridges Plan.
tHANKS GUYS, i GUESS i BRING A COUPLE ROLLS OF QUARTERS SINCE I WILL ONLY BE MAKING 1 RT ON EACH SECTION
Better off with cash. There are no exact change buckets on any of those crossings. If you don't have EZPass, you wait in line to give your money to a person.
-Hank
Then can I give them rolls of nickles?
Bob, turn your CAPS LOCK key off. It shows in your messages. As a teacher.........
Or make it a habit to Preview Message Before Posting.
Or perhaps, since the 'I' in his message was NOT capitalized, he hit the Caps Lock key in error. Done it myself a million times.
-Hank
Why would you use the George Wshington if you're going from White Plains to Great Neck?
By the way, what's the toll on the Maui to California Tunnel?
1-To get from Newark Airport to White Plains. 2-The tunnel from Maui to LA is $189.00 plus taxes each way, depends on the day of the week.
2-The tunnel from Maui to LA is $189.00 plus taxes each way, depends on the day of the week.
Except on Sunny Sundays when only Triplexes can run through it
[By the way, what's the toll on the Maui to California Tunnel?]
Dunno, but it'll probably get built long before the Second Avenue subway does!
HELLO EVERYBODY I'M BACK FROM MY LONG VACATION AND I AM GOING TO START JOING AGAIN ON THIS BOARD SO NICE SEEING YA! BYE
A copy of the 1976 softbound edition of "Uptown, Downtown" by Stan Fischler, a history of New York's subway, is being offered on eBay. It is item #397928968, the last bid was $8.50, and the auction ends at 20:12 Pacific time. Seems like a bargain if you don't own this book. Disclaimer: I am not the seller, know the seller, or a bidder.
I have a copy of this book, which I got a long time ago. The first print, they had a picture of the built-in-1966-by-St. Louis Car R-38 in which they made two errors on the caption: 1) that it was from the late 1950’s and 2) that it was manufactured by Budd (the second print corrected the latter error but not the former). Also on the first print of the book they showed a PATH car interior and made some description about the spacious interior of the R-44/46 car(s). But on the second print they correctly noted about PATH and its service in the caption. My copy has these later modifications.
Some public libraries have the book. Several years ago, the Huntington Library on Main St., Huntington had a copy.
Many of the suburban libraries have garage sale type day where they sell old books that have not be widely circulated for a while in order to create shelf space for new books. Generally this day is set to coincide with the Library Budget vote.
If you lose out on the bidding at e-Bay, you can purchase Stan's updated book "The Subway--A Trip Through Time on New York's Rapid Transit" at tmny.safeshopper.com (and help support the Trolley Museum too).
Or through amazon.com and help support this website...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're better off getting "The Subway - a Trip through time on NY's Rapid Transit." It's more up to date. Uptown, Downtown - 1976, The Subway - 1997.
According to Railpace Magazine’s hot news posted Aug 7, DaimlerChrysler AG will sell its Adtranz rail systems unit to Bombardier Inc.
Finally, no more Adtrash, excuse me, Adtranz.
Hey, what is wrong with Adtranz. They made the new M4 in Philadelphia, and the N-5 on the Norristown High Speed Line, and they seem nice, at least, interior wise.
Yeah, but the M4's were over two years late, the first ones built were oversize for the MFSE and overweight, and SEPTA collected a $23M state-of the-art signal system for the Subway-Surface in lieu of contract penalties. The N-5's were declared "total disasters" by Jack Leary.
Other late and improperly built Adtranz cars were the 18 additional LRV's for MTA Baltimore's Central Light Rail Line. The cars were 26 months late, and arrived with a nasty vibration that appeared if the speed exceeded 35 MPH. The MTA and Adtranz went round and round, each side claiming the other side was at fault. Finally, the Light Rail's own shop forces discovered that the trucks were torqued incorrectly. They re-tourqued the trucks to the proper (as used on the original 35 cars built by ABB Traction) specs and the vibration disappeared.
Adding (almost) insult to injury, a "Special Use" PCC (SEPTA 2711) was reconditioned by Adtranz for Arden. The car arrived at Arden with almost dead batteries, which meant that Adtranz had never tested the car at Elmira.
Need we say more?
Yeah, they were late, they were suppose to be in service from 1997. Geez, they are a bad company, but I take the N-5 every week and it isn't really bad now. I guess I agree with you, but why does SEPTA keep buying vehicles from them then?
Good question. Could be because both the N-5's and the M4's were designed by SEPTA's engineering department. Adtranz (M4's) may have been the only builder to bid on the job. The N-5's were a SEPTA design and were supposed to built by Amtrak. The first one was, then the problems started. ABB Traction wound up with the job, I believe, and by that time it was too late. SEPTA was desparate for equipment, the bullets and the 60's were gone and the service was being held down with the ex-CTA PCC's and 4 of the Almond Joy singles, with PATH K car trucks. The Budds were supposed to back to the MFSE, but after the Suburban Division got done with them, the City Division wanted nothing to do with them. They were the first Budds to go to scrap after a long break.
As to SEPTA's car designs, based on the current track record, the articulated LRV's will (if they ever show up, don't bet the farm) also be total disasters. The word around a lot of the industry is that they wouldn't let SEPTA design an outhouse.
But LRVs can be done off the shelf by the manufacturer. And that's the way it should be done. Since the N5s run entirely above ground they could have been done by the manufacturer.
BTW, who designed the N5 cars? Were they stoned or something when they did it? Am I the only one who thinks those cars are butt-ugly? Must have been the same people who designed the last Chevy Caprice. They should never be allowed near a drawing board or CAD program again.
I actually recall Jack Leary saying they were planning to go with an off-the-shelf product for the Schuylkill Valley Metro. I saw this somewhere on the DVARP site (might have been one of their links) but in the same article he called the N5s a disaster. Stay tuned...
As I said in my previous post, the N-5 and the M4 were both designed by the SEPTA Engineering Department. As to the N-5, butt ugly is saying it lightly. The Bullets were designed with the aid of a wind tunnel. Very unusual for a 1920 era design, but Conway was a radical thinker. The Bullets were sucessful for 50 years and were still hitting 80 at the end of their careers.
The N-5 design comes from the same school that has given us square LRV's, buses that are boxes on wheels - it's cheaper to fix. Rounded ends with curves (like the PCC car) are expensive. So, we get utilitarian designs that are cheap to fix and unatractive.
After all these years of rounded edges, maybe some of us find the squared off boxiness a refreshing change. Then again, maybe some of us have no taste.
Getting back to the original point, about what is so bad about Adtranz, this is the same company responsible for the EWR monorail, isn't it?
Let's see.
1. SEPTA buys new Market El cars from ABB Traction. ABB Traction vanishes into Adtranz, order is 2 years late, first two cars are too heavy and too wide for the Elevated. Order finally arrives almost 3 years late, SEPTA gets $23M signal system for subway-surface (streetcar) system in lieu of contract penalties. Cars finally delivered in 1999, old Budds are scrapped. Cracks in trucks of 4 cars discovered, trucks being replaced by AAI Corp, the contractor. Remaining cars being checked. Quality?
2. Baltimore MTA orders 18 additional LRV's from ABB Traction (builder of 35 original cars, cars are fantastic quality and excellant performers. Service availability approaches 98%.) ABB Traction vanishes into Adtranz, order is 3 years late and arrives with an irritating vibration that shows up above 35 MPH. Adtranz and MTA lawyers go round and round. MTA Light Rail Shop discovers that the trucks are improperly tourqued. They re-tourque the trucks to the specs used on the original 35 cars - new cars have same trucks from same bulder, AAI. Vibration vanishes. Quality?
3. Pennsylvania Trolley Museum (Arden) gets Adtranz to donate a SEPTA PCC as a "Special Use" car (Wheelchair accessable). Adtranz gets car 2711, refits it and paints it in the PTC 1947 delivery colors. When the car is delivered to PTM, they discover that the car's batteries are almost dead, meaning Adtranz never checked it at Elmira. Later they discover that some of the wooden parts of the roof are rotted and have to replace them. Wooden parts like the trolley hook base. Quality?
4. Adtranz agrees to rehab PTM's Pittsburgh 1937 air-electric PCC. A recent report reveals that body work is complete and bondo is being applied on body imperfections. Just as a comparison, when the Baltimore MTA restored the body of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's 7407 in 1990 and 1991, any body panel too rusted or dented was removed and replaced with totally new steel. Battery acid damage has been a problem on PCC's since 1936. Acid (even weakened) destroys carbon steel. Solution: (From MBTA in Boston) Replace in stainless steel. 7407 sports a stainless steel battery box. 10 years later, not a sign of acid damage.
Bondo on a restored PCC? Where's the quality there?
They also made the Danish Flexliner EMU/DMU series, the Swedish X2000 tilting trains and the German ICE high-speed trains as well as many LRVs. Those products seem to be doing well. I was actually surprised to find out that that the N5s and M4s had so much trouble, but I think it was the Elmira plant. Coincidence between here and Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant? I think not!
Something happened between ABB Traction and Adtranz. ABB Traction built 35 LRV's for the MTA (Baltimore). The first two, 5001 and 5002, were the test cars. The MTA and ABB ran the wheels off the two cars as soon as the power was on. Everything that wasn't right was fixed on those two and applied to every other car of the 35. At the end of the delivery, the acceptance period was down to three days. Those 35 cars were so reliable that MTA exercised its extension order for 18 more cars three weeks after opening day in May 1992. The cars have a 97% availability ratio even today.
The 18 cars showed up in 1996 - full of problems. The delivery was not complete until late 1997.
The difficulties of the 18 Adtranz cars has been discussed earlier in this thread.
Someone should bring back Budd. Hey, remember that old guy we met on the MFL who used to work for Budd? That was a pretty fortunate meeting.
Yes, a very interesting conversation about the late, great Budd Company, but I didn't think he was old.
Well he may not have been old, but he was more than a little grizzled.
this budd's for you
Oh, goody!!! The (somewhat) no railcar quality shop buys the NO quality shop.
Since ADtranz was unable to deliver any order on time or built to spec, can Bombardier do any better? Or, will they now possess two "Plattsburg" plants?
Adtranz was good when they were ABB, at least. As much maligned as the Arrow IIs are, they beat the snot out of the M-series in terms of acceleration...
And they have those cool pantographs on them too :)
Adtranz was good when they were ABB, at least. As much maligned as the Arrow IIIs are, they beat the snot out of the M-series in terms of acceleration...
And they have those cool pantographs on them too :)
click ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
click ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is there a site for people who collect subway signs / images? Is there an organization of collectors? You folks would know. Help,
please!
I don't know of one (most of us are on here)
Sorry, I sold all my stuff about 1 1/2 years ago. Could have helped you then but think it was all from before you're time unless you're older than I'm guessing. (old IRT stuff from High-V, Low-V etc.) Have you tried the Transit Museum in Brooklyn, Or the Shore Line Museum at Branford. I hear they have some of that stuff.
I have tried the Transit Museum. Even they unofficially suggested
I go on-line to try to find some of the transit employees or transit
afficianados who may have held on to some of these things. No one
else would have considered them "valuable!" Who bought your collection? I need to find the Canal St. station signs, and Evacuation Instructions in Spanish. Other things may be of interest
too. I make a lot of the cool tee shirts etc sold at the museum shop!
Where is the Branford Museum?
The Branford Electric Railway (aka BERA) is located in East Haven Conn. and is accessible through their web address: www.bera.org
Direct business inquiries to: Mr. George Boucher
If you live in the NYC TriState area you might want to visit the museum. They are near exit 51 off of I-95. The drive from NYC is approx. 1 1/2 to 2 hours.
Doug aka BMTman
Thank you, BMT Man! I will go there. Meanwhile, anybody else got ideas on finding de-commisioned NYC subway signs from inside the
cars, or stations? Canal St. with Chinese characters under it,
or Emergency evacuation signs in Spanish especially. Photos would
be fine!
one of the regulars here SUBWAY SURF was restoring signs at the transit museum... i know you said that you spoke with them there, but maybe SUBWAY SURF could give you some ideas...
Unfortunatly, the transit museum is no longer into selling old signs. They only take what is needed for collections. But the next time I am there I will check for you anyway, to be sure. Photos might be available at their archives.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unfortunatly, the transit museum is no longer into selling old signs
True. There's actually a very nice exhibit of them in the back of the museum, beyond the surface exhibit.
--Mark
The emergency evac instructions are still on several cars running around on the 5 and 6 lines, I saw one yesterday on the 6 in car number 95??.
Dear Henry,
Thanks!
Was the emerg. evac instructions JUST in Spanish? That's what's hard
to find. SG
I couldn't tell, I was across the platform.
By the way, I remember a large Canal st. sign sold off eBay about a month or two ago, I can't really recall the price but it was above my $60 limit. The sign is one off the wall, if I remember. The person who put it up probably took more, and is waiting a short while to put another up.
Of course, they took down a whole bunch from the Canal St. bridge line station rehab some time around spring, they're probably sitting stashed in the tunnel or one of the staircases or something on the currently closed platform... It wouldn't hurt to ask if you see any workers there (There seldom are, work is slow since the station won't reopen for another year).
Sorry Henry, I'm not so clued-in to these things. Where is the
Canal St. Bridge line? What would the cross street be? I checked
out ebay thanks to you and others. I see other signs there, but
not this one. I emailed one of the sellers, he said he couldn't help.
At least now I feel it's possible. If only someone will trust me
not to turn them in, I could preserve these things on tee shirts.
I think they would be so cool. I understand how the people taking
them might be suspicious, but we'd have NO transit museum without
the people who did that!!
LL
Canal-Broadway (the "Bridge" station) is located beneath Canal Street proper, between Broadway and Centre Streets. It is part of the transfer from the Broadway BMT (N/R) and the Nassau Street (J/M/Z). You have to walk almost the length of the platform to make the transfer.
wayne
Canal Street Bridge is said to differentiate it from the other Canal St. on the N/R (yellow) lines. Just north of that, the Broadway (yellow) express tracks (which are currently not in use) diverge from the mainline to cross the Manhattan Bridge on the south side. These tracks are currently not open. The Canal St. Bridge station is underneath Canal St. on the tracks that connect the Broadway tunnels to the Manhattan Bridge. Currently not open, these tracks are constantly being closed for repairs because of the fact that the Manhattan Bridge is falling apart. The Manny B falling apart has been the subject of several threads in the past...if used by trains, the Canal St. Bridge Station would be used by the N which would bypass the Montague Tunnels (the tunnels currently used by both the N and R (and rushour M) to cross the river into brooklyn). If you have any other subway questions you can ask me, I am the other inexperienced one on Subtalk but I have learned many things since I first posted on here last Christmas and I think I know the system pretty well for someone who has only been to New York once (I live in the Seattle area). Hope that answers your questions
I Can recall subway evacuation STICKERS on the cars if that's what you'd refer to, one side English, other side Spanish. Don't know if that's what you had in mind. The Metro North also used them, in English only, and added mention of firemen as emergency reponse persons.For subway use the word fireman or fire was a nono for good reasons.
yes,
A sticker is what I'm looking for!
Been years since I had one of them. Wonder if you had any friends in the shops whether somehow, somebody would find some buried orhidden with "obsolete' items? A shop friend gave me the one I had.
Shoreline, AKA Branford, used to have a sign shop with all sorts of memorabilia. It was right next to where the cars stop at Farm River Rd. I picked up my IND sign box there, complete with signs, 20 years ago. Unfortunately, the fellow who ran the shop passed away some time ago, and the shop was subsequently closed and dismantled.
I still remember driving down Farm River Rd. and parking next to the shop to load that sign box in my car, and as I was doing so, two members engaged in a memorable exchange which I could hear plainly:
"What's this guy up to?"
"He's building a subway car at home."
I wish....
Actually it still exists via mail order. The store you are referring to was called the "Whistle and Rollsign Store". And they still go to various railroad shows (Hoboken, Liberty Park, etc). If you're interested send an e-mail to Alan at subwayal@aol.com He picked up where the store left off.
Jim.
Alan is a PATH operator who we met by chance on one of the "Field Trips" to the Newark PCCs last year. He's also a member of Branford & part time worker on the H&M #503 there. In addition I ran into him at the rapid transit model show in NJ this Spring and bought a TA badge for my operators hat ... Ding Ding.
The point is that he's carrying on the tradition of the "Whistle & Roll-Sign shop, just in a high tech way.
So now you have plunty to talk about while you're negotiating for that Roll Sign. Happy hunting.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, that's it - the Whistle and Rollsign store. I had heard it was operating out of New Jersey somewhere. As I recall, at that time, all proceeds were earmarked for construction of a new carbarn. There was a complete IND sign box installed by one of the windows, and it had light fixtures for the upper sign attached to it. Eddie Sarkauskas explained that some of the R-1/9s came that way; however, most of them had the upper light fixtures attached to the car side itself. My sign box, for instance, does not have upper light fixtures. I gave my address to Eddie in case he came across any upper fixtures, but never heard from him.
He's got another one on e-Bay right now. Check out this entry.
--Mark
Mark, are you talking about the Wall St. sign? Isn't it beautiful.
I bet some "Titan of the Universe" will buy it.
No - not the Wall Street sign (though I saw that one, one for 14th Street and another one which I can't remember right now.
The one I referred to is a roll sign from the front of an R-9.
--Mark
You might try e-Bay. There is a catagory called "Subway" under "Transportation" under "Collectibles". Occasionally, old subway signs come up for auction. Currently there is a "Wall Street" porcelein enameled sign for sale. Good luck!
If you're interested in viewing a few old LIRR cars. There are, I believe, 5 sitting in a yard in Ridgeley, WV waiting for rehabilitation for the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad. The yard is in Ridgeley but the RR runs from Cumberland, MD up to Frostburg, MD along an old Western Maryland Railway Right-of-Way. The cars can be seen from I-68 west of Cumberland as it crosses over Haystack Mountain. It's clear to see the cars were used on the LIRR during the 70's due to the fact that they have Logos celebrating the Bicentennial on them. For more info. contact the Western Md Scenic RR at (301) 759-4400, or write them at 13 Canal St. Cumberland, MD 21502, or check out their web site at www.wmsr.com
I saw the set Friday and Saturday, and today. While waiting 45 minutes for the R-142a, I saw somewhat in its time slot (well, after waiting that long, every <6> seems to be in its time slot!). Cars 1416-1420, along with 1345-1349 (new floors!) were at Brooklyn Bridge at approx. 4:10 PM. All the rollsigns (including the front and between the sets) had just a diamond 6 (no white "Express" underneath). The middle cars said (4) or <4>, except for one which was 3/4 on (3). The strip maps were still for the 4. The really big window (side window before transversification) that lets you see in the cab has already been spraypainted over by someone from the 6, sugggesting it will stay there for a while.
Today, I took the first Nereid bound 5 for the day, and at 180th it was extended to 241st (T/O scrolled the bulkhead to make it official) because of a really, really long gap in 2 service (they sent a Dyre 5 local and had us wait for the connection). Upon arrival at 241st, the crew and a dispatcher ran around changing the signs to that of a 2, and in about 2 minutes both bulkheads were changed, as well as most of the side signs from
238st Nereid, Bronx
Bowling Green, Manhattan
<5>Lex Ave Express, Bronx Thru Express
to:
241st White Plains Rd.
Flatbush Ave, Brooklyn
(2)7th ave Express
The train's consist was mostly R-28, with 2 R-26s and 2 R-29s. Approx 4 cars had the old windows.
That happens all the time during rush hour,
But usually at Dyre ave. Meaing 2 trains become 5
trains.
If that was originally a 5 Thru Express, how come it was only going to Bowling Green? Don't they typically go to Flatbush Ave. during rudh hours?
There are some 5's that start at Bowling Green to aleviate the crowd in Manhattan.
OK, I'll buy that.
Actually, AFAIK all 238st bound 5s start at Bowling Green. I always see them DHing south with 238st as the northern dest.
Not all, some leave from New Lots (Livonia) ang go straight to 239 yard.
On a recent PBS special about Brooklyn, they referred to the area near the Manhattan Bridge as "DUMBO," which stood for "Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass." Has anyone ever heard this name used for that area before? This was the first time I had ever heard it, and I have lived in Brooklyn all my life!
Yes, it's been used before. I've heard that term for the area not just UNDER the Manhattan Bridge, but technically the area between both the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridge towers as DUMBO.
The Yuppies have "discovered" this former waterfront area that still has remnants of the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad, making it difficult for them to manevour their Mercedes & Lexus' without damage to their suspension.
Doug aka BMTman
[The Yuppies have "discovered" this former waterfront area that still has remnants of the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad, making it difficult for them to manevour their Mercedes & Lexus' without damage to their suspension.]
There's always the Mercedes M-class and the Lexus RX300 :-)
<< the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad >>
What did this RR connect?
<< the old Jay Street Connecting Railroad >>
What did this RR connect?
It didn't connect with anything else actually. The "Connecting" part of the name refers to the fact that the line had many spurs that terminated in various area warehouses, thusly making most of them accessible to each other via street trackage.
Plymouth, Front and Washington Streets still have some sections of rail imbedded in the cobblestones which will make for a rough ride in anything but an SUV.
> > Has anyone ever heard this name used for that area before?
> Yes, it's been used before.
Actually, I didn't mean has it been used before. I meant has anyone ever heard of it before. The word before was meant to modify the word heard, not used.
By the way, you did answer my question okay.
[DUMBO.
The Yuppies have "discovered" this former waterfront area ]
It's actually populated less by YUPPIES and more by artists and Jehovah's Witnesses.
They are always making up acronym for old neighborhoods. Just like TRIBECA (Triangle between Canal and ??), and SOHO (South of Houston). Doesn't DUMBO meant at one time District under Manhattan Bridge?
TRIangle BElow CAnal
SOuth of HOuston
NOrth of HOuston
NOrth of Little ITAly
What will they call it after the Manny B falls down? DAMBR, or District Amoungst Manhattan Bridge Rubble?
[What will they call it after the Manny B falls down? DAMBR, or District Amoungst Manhattan Bridge Rubble?]
We will know soon enough [crunch!]
I wonder if the city should put up signs to aviod liability. "Danger: Watch for falling Bridge" I wonder if even the M class could protect you.
DUMBO- "Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass" is one of those neighborhood names created by the real estate industry to enhance the image of an older urban area.
Other examples--
"East Village", "Alphabet City" or "NoLita" for various sections of the Lower East Side, "Clinton" for Hell's Kitchen, "Chelsea" for the West 20s, "Carroll Gardens" in Brooklyn for parts of Red Hook.
Or how about "Astoria" for the non-industrial reaches of what is technically "Long Island City?"
Umm, Chelsea is an old name, it dates back to a developer building houses around a central square (Chelsea Square) between 8th and 9th and 19th and 20th in the 1800s. The square has since been replaced by the General Theological Seminary.
Alphabet City was coined by people themselves, it's an obvious name referring to the uniqueness of the avenues there.
While we are on this digression, another one of my favorites is Carnegie Hill. I grew up during the forties and fifties in the east lower nineties and had never heard of this name while growing up. This neighborhood name may not be that new, but, as already been pointed with respect to other nifty neighborhood names, it seems to be more something which is pushed by the real estate industry than something which has been in common use among neighborhood residents in the past.
[...one of those neighborhood names created by the real estate industry....]
Don't forget "Loisaida" - a fake-Spanish rendering of "Lower East Side." It's basically the eastern half of Alphabet City, centered on Loisaida Avenue (a.k.a. Avenue C).
Today actually saw 4 different sets of slants on the WesEnd line. Did anyone catch any R68a's on
the Q?
I wonder if they aren't beginning this supposed switch a little early.
wayne
switch? could you elaborate for the unobservant...?
Someone had mentioned that a swap of equipment between the "Q" and "B" lines was imminent.
Wayne
Yes, but that mention was based on supposition, not on fact. The only thing we've seen in print about the fleet after delivery of the R-143s is a 1997 projected car assignment (which I think Joe Korman still has on his site). However, that assignment was made before it was decided to send the R-40s to the Q line and the R-68As to the B line.
David
OK, thank you for clearing up the cobwebs.
We'll keep an eye on the situation. It wouldn't be SO bad to have a split between "B" and "Q" as far as the Slant fleet is concerned. The express run from 36th Street to Pacific is pretty good - the Slants really get cooking when they get to about 9th Street.
wayne
Not to mention their trademark deep-throated rumble when they get rolling.
Oooooohhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooo.
Since my 'Final Word' post of 2 nights ago, I have received 23 e-mail messages. Each of then asked me to reconsider my decision to leave subtalk. They ranged from stating that I'm too thin skinned to anger for mr. kronrnberg (heypaul) and his friends. While 23 is no landslide considering the population of subtalk, the count was 23 - o in favor. However, this is not a popularity contest and while the overwhelming support is very warming, support was never an issue.
While I intend to write each of you 23 individually and thank you for your kind thoughts, I want to use this venue to publicly thank you. I also will admit to a certain amount of narcissism (jersey mike, heypaul will tell you what that means). I have read all of the posts that followed my 'final words' post i'd perfer not to comment on any of them at this time with the exception of one. Jersey Mike, any time you feel hoppy, froggy you can sniff that rod to your heart's content. And that brings me to the the real point of this posting. In each of the 23 e-mails and in all of the follow-up posts, no one seems to get it.
Over the past few years we've had some very good times. We've also had some very heated discussions. A few people have actually been virtually run out of town. However, regardless of who, regardless of why and regardless of what, the rules have always been the same. The content of the posting was always the issue. We attacked the content of the posting and not the character of the poster. This was even true in the case of Salaam when he was posting his racist garbage. His postings were vilified but he was not. The only exception to this was the person who posted that the MTA was deliberately killing people. That is until recently.
In the past few months, I have been increasingly intollerant of mr kronenbergs posted humor. Even more-so when he was joined in by a few of his equally talanted foils. They prolonged threads of pure drivel ad-nauseum, adding nothing, at least to my mind. Granted, I dislike mr kronenberg on a very personal level (and he may reveal why if he choses). When he posted legitimate questions or comments, I responded to him with civility. However, when I felt his humor was too far over the edge, I criticized it as I would any other posting that i disagreed with. I did not attack him. I said his humor did not impress me. To his credit (and I give him precious little), mr kronenberg chose to ignore my comments. However, several people who were not criticized decided to take up the cause of heypaul.
Bearing in mind that the handle train dude was adopted to end confusion at a time when at least 4 people were posting as Steve, I have never tried to hide who I was. I have had some of you as guests to my facilities either at jamaica or Concourse shops. However, there emerged a few who while hiding behind annonymous handles and identities, began to avenge my defaming of their leader. The problem is, they have gone beyond the point of the prevailing rules and etiquette of this forum. They have not attacked my postings but have launched a fusillade of personal attacks, far in excess of the original sin. One stated that my lack of appreciation of heypaul's humor is exactly why my employees had no morale. Of course he knew nothing of my employees or my work style. Another referred to my "Pathetic life in the bronx" and then tonight our resident scholar jersey mike's very painful cheap shot. Again, these attacks were not about the content of my posting but my persona and my life. This was far in excess of the norm for this site. These and a few others, hiding behind psudonyms have begun a string of attacks that i find cowardly and vicious. In the last day, regardless of what i posted, they attacked me. Admittedly, my level of anger was out of proportion to the offenders but anger is not always a proportional thing. Do I want to waste so much energy? Does anyone see the difference in the response?
I have not deleted the link to this site and will be following some threads that interest me. I may even post something on occassion when the subject is provocative enough. However, at this time, until the alpha-males find another playground to burn off their excess testosterone, life on this site will be far less contentious without my active, regular participation. To do otherwise would not prudent at this time.
Again, to the 23 kind people who have e-mailed me, my profound thanks. To the others over the years who have informed me of problems and have given me ideas I could take credit for, again thank you. For those who have filled some quiet nights while my wife was at work, thanks for keeping me company. And most of all to doug, mabstoa, jersey and the other pitbull pups, thanks for helping to keep it all in perspective.
Once again, for those of you who have suggested publically and privately that I use the kill-file for heypaul, I hope you see now that he in no way was the real problem. He was just the catalyst, the excuse for the thugs to act up. Frankly, I just don't care to play their game any more.
BTW: If you disagree with my assessment - go at it.
NOW FOR THE TEASE:
As long as you read through that here's a tidbit you don't have yet.
Queens Blvd. Routes after 63rd St connection opens (as of 8/07/00)
E - Parsons Archer - WTC via 53rd St
F - 179th St. to Stillwell via 63rd St
R - 71 Ave to 95th St via 60th St
V - 71 Ave to 2nd Ave via 53rd St
[Once again, for those of you who have suggested publically and privately that I use the kill-file for heypaul, I hope you see now
that he in no way was the real problem. He was just the catalyst, the excuse for the thugs to act up. Frankly, I just don't care to play their game any more.]
In addition to kill-filing heypaul, if that's what you choose to do, you also can be selective in what you read. Nothing says that you have to read every message or even every thread. Pick and choose according to your preferences.
[Nothing says that you have to read every message or even every thread. Pick and choose according to your preferences.]
I've said this very same thing several times before, e.g. when you know or at least suspect that "Crank" is calling on the phone, who says that you have to answer it ? Good advise for many of us.
My choosieness has a lot to do with the limited amount of time that I provide myself (so I miss SOME good stuff), but it also has to do with fluff/personal preferences or rock throwing that I have no interest in participating in. However, a little fun mixed in makes my visit that much more enjoyable and since we're all individuals some like Jerry Lewis (not me), some Rodney Dangerfield (me but definitly not my wife). As far as heypaul is concerned, I don't find his humor ALWAYS funny or appropriate/proper, but I do mostly AND there is usually substance written between the lines. After the first time we met we became friends. There is another who showed up Saturday, was his first "Field Trip", which he enjoyed, use to get into it with heypaul, BUT now too considers heypaul a friend.
This said maybe it's just time to drop this whole line, because what does it have to do with mass transit ?
Mr t__:^)
Is that V a local, or an express?
-Hank
My suspicion is that the V would be Queens express (Manhattan Local) and the F Queens & Manhattan local. Otherwise, there will be whole lot-o'-crossing going on at the 36th street interlocking.
As far as the Q is concerned, if the Manny-B south side is open, then the Q's northern terminus can be 57/7. But if the north side is open, I can't figure out where it can turn without creating a bottleneck. Unless there's some creative way to do it at the stub tracks of Lex/63.
Unless there's some creative way to do it at the stub tracks of Lex/63.
Here's a thought.
Punch out the walls at Lex / 63rd St, activate that side of the platform that's already there, and terminate the Q trains on those tracks.
--Mark
Won't work, because there's no connection between the 2 levels, so you'd have to wrong-rail back to 57st.
-Hank
I want to see the Q (or the rumored new "V" train) go all the way to 179th Street. That way either the F can run express all the way to 179th while the Q or V runs local or the Q or V can while the F runs local.
I'd like it best if the Q were express all the way to 179th, replacing the F as the Queens Blvd. Express while the F runs with the V and R as lcoal (except the the F should continue as local all the way to 179th.) First of all, it's consistent with the way the F and Q run in Manhattan. Second, it would mean a ride from Midtown Manhattan to the Easternmost point of mainland Queens accessible by subway can be done entirely by express and with a minimum of stops.
Of course, I like this option best because it would save me six stops on my cmomute.
:)Andrew
The express should go all the way to 179th Street. If the F becomes local AND goes to 179th, it will be a mess sometimes. It was the slowest line in the B Division at one point so unless it is cut back if it is made local, there is a problem.
What about the
Q or
Q?
We'll find out soon enough, I'm sure. Remember, it's only a tease.:-)
Well I'm sorry I took you at your word and actually believed that you were really not comming back. It may just be me, but I don't like it when people storm off Message Boards (because of a single person or because of a mild content issue) because it is really just manuplitive ploy to make others on the MB feel bad, by thinking that they caused you so much pain that you had to leave the MB. You were trying to paint yourself as a mawrter* on order to have other boarders group together and stop heypaul before he so hartlessly drives other away like he did to poor Train Dude. Well I wasn't going to feel bad (wasn't going to feel glad either) and although I have never complained about you or your crusade before, I felt I should let off a little harpoon to help redirect the blame away from heypaul and back to where it belonges. From past post observations I felt a Simpsons's joke would get the message accross. I can admit when I am wrong. Those fake news stories were a mistake and now I'm sorry that some viewers did not get the inside joke. However I still do not agree with your actions regarding the heypaul matter. I hope that you will stay, but if you really want to leave just leave quietly. Don't keep comming back and yelling at people and making overdramatic exits.
Inside joke? Those fake news stories were idiotic and asinine, to say the least.
-Hank
Yes, they were, however The rod up his butt has a rod up his bott was the inside joke I was refering to. There is a "now" in that sentence that sets the 2 subjetc appart. yes, I realize I was confusing there. BTW please give me credit for stoping those news stories upon yor request.
I have every intent from withdrawing from my active participation here, at least to the extent that I deem appropriate. However, since it seems that personal attacks are now fair game on subtalk - I'll play.
Clearly, you think that your keen insight into sub-normal intelligent TV shows is more interesting than the posted topic of this board. How about if we put it to a vote? Wanna chance it? YOur insight into the Simpsons vs mine about the NYCT? Come on BIG MOUTH - PUT UP OR SHUT UP? Loser leaves permanently - no good bye or anything! I'll abide by the will of the majority. What about you?
Now, I had intended to withdraw from subtalk or at the very least severely limit my activities here. I still do. That's for me to decide - not you. But you keep chasing me. Only thing, be sure you know what you are going to do with me when you catch me. As for the rod in my butt, the offer still stands! It's yours for the sniffing, you weasel.
BTW: I know subtalk does not provide a spell checker but have you ever heard of a dictionary, ASS HOLE? Do you have so little respect for yourself that you don't care how others see you - as an illiterate slob.
"However, regardless of who, regardless of why and regardless of what, the rules have always been the same. The content of the posting was always the issue. We attacked the content of the posting and not the character of the poster."
steve... i have taken some of your words from your curtain call x 23 original posting... frankly in my mind, this has been more of an issue between us than my attempts at humor...
you have been personally attacked over the last couple of weeks by a few posters... i didn't like seeing that... i also didn't like the times when i felt you violated the standards of behavior here, as you described them here in the beginning quote, in your own postings...
we all have feelings...you can never tell how someone will react to words against them, no matter how "innocently" or "righteously" they were made... i am concerned about people's feelings, and as much as i may get pissed off by things i read here, i often try to make my displeasure known in a furtive way...(you'll excuse my use of a word that you've used which until i looked it up, i didn't think existed)...
i have gathered that you have enjoyed participating in the discourse here at subtalk... once again, i am sorry if your feelings about my postings have been part of your questioning of whether to stay here... you have spoken that there is a real personal issue between us, and you have left it to me to explain that to others here at subtalk... i think you are referring to a series of e-mails when i questioned a series of your posts about an incident that involved a worker in the subways... i think that was the source of "personal" differences between us... i really do not want to open that issue up again, as my concerns at the time involved the risks of discussing that whole incident here at subtalk...
some people have suggested the use of the killfile in dealing with heypaul, and i would second that, especially since humor is a really important part of me...
again, i think your words that i have quoted at the beginning of this post, are an excellent guideline for helping to keep the discourse here at a subtalk at a respectful level... i will try to honor those guidelines, and i hope others will to...
Many comedians bomb. Part of being a comic is having the chutzpah to stand up and tell a joke and face no laughter. My opinion of your comedic skills should not bother you. It was just my expression of the content as posted here. Just as if you posted an idea to run the Q to the Bronx and the D to Queens. Had I said the idea is stupid you'd be equally hurt. Perhaps that was the intent in my post - I'm not much on introspection these days. However, what really got my hackles up was the innundation of the follow-ups posts by a few other subtalkers who continued on with the joke but lacked even your level of comedic talent. At that point, the whole thing became too much.
The real oddity of this whole episode is that of the (now 34) personal E-mails I have received and of all the follow-up posts on this subject, it appears that you are the only one so far to understand the point of my anger.
I'd like to end this thread and - at least to the point that I can maintain my self control, back off from active participation in subtalk, at least for a while. Anger takes too uch energy and energy is a rare commodity these days
i must say that i was moved by your last words...
first, a few words about myself ( to be expected of a narcissist )... i guess i am more of a sam levinson kind of comedian... for those who don't go back 30 or 40 years, sam levinson was a jewish comedian who told stories about growing up in his family... the stories reflected the lives and hopes of his parents and brothers and sisters... and they would always have a funny aspect to them... that part is not where i am like him... but when he told the stories he was always laughing.... he enjoyed the stories and the memories... frankly, when i am putting up a post here at subtalk, there is quite often a smile on my face... i get a kick out of some of the screwy connections i'll weave between people and things... i've had a few people tell me i ought to do stand-up, but it would be terrifying plus i don't really want to be dependent on making people laugh... i find myself funny both in words and in the sorry way i lead my life... that's the audience i play to...
i'm reminded of some comedian imitating ed koch on his radio call in show ... he went on and on like the former mayor for about 10 minutes, then said "enough of my talking about myself"... now i will take some phone calls and "tell me what you think of me"
it is very ironic that you find that i alone so far seem to have understood your pain... perhaps it is time for us to get an act together... maybe we could start small... maybe do a brief commentary on transit transit each month, sort of playing off of each other like shields and gigot(sp) on the news hour on pbs... a weird thought???
subtalk is a very unique place... it is our interest in subways, buses, railroads, trolleys, and all forms of mass transit that bring us here... but that need not be the sole focus of our being here... we may also become aware of "our better selves" and observe ourselves and others struggle to realize that better nature... ( if my room wasn't such a pigsty, i would have been able to get the exact lincoln quote, as i have found that he often has some very healing words )
of course, all of this post is just words... and at times i can string together some high sounding words that may make it appear that i am very calm and wise... do not be fooled by my words... there is a tremendous amount of anger bubbling in my head also... which did not originate here either...
i guess i am more of a sam levinson kind of comedian
Sam levinson was a teacher in the NYC School System - Tilden or Midwood. I believe he taught a foreign language.
As for the rest - let me reflect on it after some time has passed. My plate at work is suddenly very full.
i only found two sites with info about sam levenson
one site just gave a thought of his: Mental illness is inherited... we get it from our kids
and this from a site about audrey hepburn
Beauty From Within
The following poem, written by Sam Levenson, a well-known New York teacher/comedian in the 50s was very special to Audrey. Audrey, one of the most alluring women in the world, defined what beauty meant to her through this poem.
For attractive lips, speak words of kindness.
For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people.
For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry.
For beautiful hair, let a child run his fingers through it once a day.
For poise, walk with the knowledge that you'll never walk alone.
We leave you a tradition with a future.
The tender loving care of human beings will never become obsolete.
People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed.
Never throw anybody out.
Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm.
As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands, one for helping yourself, the other for helping others.
Your 'good-ole-days' are ahead of you. May you have many of them.
"my plate at work is suddenly very full"...
hey, even managers are entitled to a meal break, but don't pile the food on too high... there's a lot of work to be done....
heypaul, that was very deep. Thanks for the nice (and serious) posting for a change.
I think everyone here can say that not ALL of your postings are asinine.
Doug aka BMTman
Ok, I'm not the best speller so I'm an ass hole? Why would I want to waste a good deal of my time to look up words that would go into a post for someone like you to read. You're simply not worth the effort. Since when was I offering my "insight" into the simpsons. My insult of you took on a completely different meaning if you knew the context in which it came from. You didn't, I tried to appoligise, you yelled at me. What is your big NCYTA insight anyway? Management is always right? Unhappy workers are easier to control? Furthermore your little bet is bunk because incase you forgot, you already left. Leave or stay, I don't care. Just make a big deal about leaving and then keep popping back.
BTW if you want to know what a real jerk is, it is somebody who attacks and insults another person who's only goal in life it to put a smile on the lips of others.
* mawrter is how they spell it at Bryn Mawr college out on the main line
"I'm an ass hole?"
Absolutely Mike - do I need to say it again?.
And as far as unhappy employees are concerned, I'd invite you to my shop to see what a properly operated facility is like but I'm afraid that your knuckles dragging on the ground would scrape the paint off the shop floor.
Perhaps some of the others on subtalk, who have been here, would like to tell you about morale in my shop.
You paint the shop floor? What's the point of that?
-Hank
A painted concrete shop floor generates less dust and is easier to clean. MUCH EASIER!!!
Not to say you can find somthing if you drop it and it happens to be very small...
What is your seceret? Robot workers or cat-o-9 tails?
Here, if you want to prove to me that you are a good manager (if such a creature exists) honestly answer these 2 questions.
1. What would you do if you saw a Dilbert cartoon hanging on the shop wall in a non-critical place.
2. Do/would you encourage the practice of holsters trailing through switches? (answer N/A if its not your job.)
Be honest.
Do/would you encourage the practice of holsters trailing through switches?
I don't believe in holsters for trailing point moves. Best
to keep the pistol in your hand in case there's trouble.
No, seriously, what are you talking about?!
A holster is the guy who moves the subway cars about the shop complex. They do not have to be certified engineers. Training through a switch is where you run through a switch set against you. The rigid axle of the train will push the switch points into correct alignment. Sometimes this is alowed, other times it is not. I have heard several stories of managers trying to save time in rail yards by telling engineers to trail through switches not normally trained through. They are often surprised by a spiked or otherwise non-trailable switch, but by that time the cars are on the ground and switch has been destroyed.
Hostlers and holsters;
train through a turnout or trail through a turnout;
Correct spelling can lessen confusion.
Especially when that mispelling makes it a completely different word with a different meaning!
-Hank
I knew what you meant but I wanted to see if you caught the
subtle distinction between holsters (where you keep a sidearm,
flashlight, ticket punch, etc.) and hostlers, who are yard car
movers.
Spring switches and variable switches are trailable. Most electric
or air switches are not, although some machines can be set up for
trailable operation. Most hand-throw switches without a spring
rod are not trailable but have an emergency release which will allow
the train to push the points over, just not too many times before
the switch mechanism will break.
Your question was originally to Train Dude and is not relevant to
New York City Subway yard practice. While there is the odd hand-
throw switch and even a couple of spring switches, most of the
yard switches are power-operated and are not trailable. They are
tower-controlled and protected with dwarf signals. "Engine Brake"
has spent a lot of time in the yards and I'm sure he could tell you
more. Also, not that you probably care, but Train Dude is a shop
superintendent, not a yardmaster. His job does not normally involve
giving instructions for the movement of equipment in the yard.
We had those variable switches in Laurel Yard on Montana Rail Link, which was formerly BN, ex NP trackage. A lot of guys ran them as a matter of habit but it was againt the rules to do so. As we didn't have a switchman riding the engine to line us out [modern reduced crews] I admit I ran some myself to save time and the trouble of restarting a heavy cut. After I got a letter for trying to do them a favor and not reporting flat spots so I could get their work done [but they got too bad thanks to my good intentions] I stopped the move, climbed out of the cab and lined myself out all the time. To confirm another post I never encountered power switches that were sprung or variable.
Some quick points. At no time is a non certified person to move locomoives on a federally regulated railroad. A HOSTLER is reqired by such federal law (part 49, CFR) to have at a minimum of a class two licence. Class one is the full engineer. Two being a hostler of engines only no cars allowed. This class of licence exists to save the roads money through reduced training requirements. Depending on the presence of a union at that particular road and it's contract there may or may not be class two engineers present. New Jersey Transit has them, LIRR does not, the BLE mandates all engineers be fully (class 1) certified. Class three is a student and four the DSLE. The instructor/supervisory licence. Holders of that certificate can pretty much get a job anywhere in America.
Now for a second point. The Train Dude happens to to be a fine manager. His outstanding quality is that he actually knows what he's doing. That sets him apart from so many of the other managers here at the Transit Authority. While his actual management style does tend to be abrasive, I've found through both observation and conversation, he's respected. The car inspectors in his shop know that if they meet the standard he will too. If you are a jerk off on the other hand he can be ruthless as well. I can respect that becasue as an employee you know exactly where you stand with him, and as a union rep it makes it difficult to put one over on the guy but if your member if a jerk off like I said...
Sure the guy takes management's side on a lot of issues. But he will also admit when he's made an error or if he disagrees with the party line. I don't agree with him on many issues. But we're both railfans and we have a great time at it. There's no reason for name calling.
Now I'm totally confused. Professor Brodzinski says I'm too people oriented and you say I'm abrasive. Anyway thanks for the kind words. And if I can return the compliment:
As I've said here before (just not recently) I wish my Car Inspectors had the grasp of the system that you do. I'm quite sure that it's that comprehension of the entire system that accounts for very few of your trains going out of service. You simply know what you are doing and you play it square.
I don't know about the Proffesor, but I know from seeing, you don't suffer fools easily. I remember some C.I. trying to get over on you with an excuse about needing batteries for his multimeter. Hahahaha, no dice.
Ah,the perfect example of the 'halo effect'. A person makes an indelible judgement of another person based on one act and for ever more, that is how the person is perceived. Unfortunately transit is full of victims and benificiaries of the halo effect. Say the right thing once in a hundred times. That one time the head of the department hears you and bingo - General Superintendent. It works equally the other way too.
I had forgotten about that battery incident, hahahaha. That particular person became a supervisor recently and I'd really relish him coming to work for me.
That is where you keep your "9" in... now 9mm or R9 I don't know.
Mike, I really wanted to let your question pass un-acknowledged but being responsive here seems to be more addictive than I ever imagined. However, this will be my final word on this subject - my management style. This site is not about that.
In order to understand what motivates employees (and I'm sure there will be a lot of people reading this that will say I'm full of crap) you have to understand the principles of motivation. First you must accept that money is not a motivator. If you believe it is, then you will never succeed. Then you have to understand one of the current models of motivation. I specifically subscribe to "Maslow's Heirarchy of Need". Interesting but the basis of motivation according to maslow, is to meet your employee's hygiene needs first. A clean facility (painted floors), well lit locker room, A/C in the lunchroom etc. Once you meet the hygiene needs you can continue up Maslow's pyramid to the top. I'll ask you, what do you think is on the top of Maslow's Heirachy? You can even look it up. There's no cheating if you learn something in the process. Then once you've mastered Maslow, you can start to deal with the realities of managing in a civil service environment. Not the same as private industry. Then trip over your own mistakes for 4-5 years and if you really pay attention to your errors, you find you don't need robots or whips.
As to your two questions - if you don't mind, I'll pass. While those questions may be significant to you, I don't know their relevance to actually predicting how successful a manager will be. I'd be foolish if I assumed that they could lend any insight into my managerial style without some substantiation. However, I will give you this bit of insight into me, personally. I took a 6 course program (in Transportation management)at John Jay College of Criminal Justice recently. (Six A's for those who really care) The last course was called "Organizational Behavior" taught by Professor Fred Brodzynski. A small part of the course involved 2 self evaluation tests that were designed to specifically indicate our individual managerial styles. To my suprise, both tests showed that I was too people oriented and not goal oriented enough. Not necessarilly a trait that I like but considering that I do strictly interpret the CBA and rules in my day to day operation, I'm sure that my persona changes somewhat from the classroom to the shop floor.
Now, I think i've said all that I care to say about my managerial style or anyone's perception of it. Frankly, I let my employees speak for me, by their actions [as they do, every day].
The first question was to see if you were a jerk/control freak on the job. The second question was to see if you were one of those managers who tries to save time by taking shortcuts that just usually end up in SNAFU's. to your pyramid question i would guess that either money or having a manager they can get along with is ot the top. For me money would be the second thing on the ladder after adequate free time. If the workplace was all crappy I would feel entitled to act snide and condecending all day which can be quite fun. BTW from what I've heard i don't think employees like being paid with intangible benifits.
hey mike... although one can get off on a negative work or living environment, there is a price to pay for that... having to live there and spend your life there...
if i remember my abraham maslow, high up on the scale was a feeling of competence or achievement...
if a shop or a business or your own business can give the feeling of pride and accomplishment and competence in the people who are doing the work, this makes for a wonderfully healthy working life... does it happen in a society like ours where more tangible measures of success are used?... i hope so...
i was just reading something i read in the paper to a friend of mine and it sounds so good that i'll just further elevate this post and all of my fellow subtalkers lives with it :-)
there is a zen buddhist saying that goes something like:
the real master in the art of living makes little distinction between his art and his leisure... he simply pursues his vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing... to him he is always doing both....
Well I think that a sence of accomplishment wouldn't be too hard to get in a locomotive shop. Every time you fix something you have a tangible accomplishment. Keeping Budd cars running for 40 years is an accomplishment. reconsitiuting a REDBIRD after a rainstorm is an accomplishment. If you like working on machines a locomotive shop would be a great place to work. The WORST place for accomplishment is the Post Office. The mail just keeps comming and comming. Once you deliver it there is more to replace what you deliver. You are stuck on a never ending cycle with no beginning and no end. That's why so many postal guys go insane.
Thank you, Dr. Fraud.
-Hank
(Pun intended)
"The WORST place for accomplishment is the Post Office. The mail just keeps comming and comming. Once you deliver it there is more to replace what you deliver. You are stuck on a never ending cycle with no beginning and no end. That's why so many postal guys go insane."
it depends on how you use the word "accomplishment"... if you think of accomplishing your mission in life, or perhaps doing your days work well, well you can get a sense of accomplishment doing anything... in some ways, it isn't really the nature of the work, as much as the mindset that the worker brings to the workplace...
your description of the never ending process could be applied to the subway... motorman and conductors are involved in a never ending process, which in your thinking might lead to mass murder too... however, they are doing a job, and a vital job, of moving millions of people around the city every day...
if you haven't read albert camus's "the myth of sisythus", maybe you should... i'm not sure what relevance it has, but maybe it will keep you occupied for a while :-)
if i remember my abraham maslow, high up on the scale was a feeling of competence or achievement... If a shop or a business or your own business can give the feeling of pride and accomplishment and competence in the people who are doing the work, this makes for a wonderfully healthy working life...
Actually, I am not sure if it was Maslow or one of his decipals that coined it but the term I like is "Self Actualization" or as the army slogan goes, "Be all that you can be."
Well, here we go again.
"The first question was to see if you were a jerk/control freak on the job"
The NYCT has a policy for everything. This includes proper format for bulletin boards. It also has a policy about posting unauthorized material. Hence, my answer to this question would be tempered by the policy, where and what. My actions might not be totally consistent with my true feelings so what's the point?
Well a cool boss would let it slide even if there was a policy about it because a good manager would know that ripping it down would only serve to hurt morale and make workers snide and condescending.
>>> Well a cool boss would let it slide even if there was a policy about it because a good manager would know that ripping it down would only serve to hurt morale and make workers snide and condescending. <<<
Mike;
It is nice to see that your knowledge of management theory so closely correlates with your posting etiquette.
Tom
I love to discuss labor relations issues. Mike, I say this with no malicious intent, but you have a very naive attitude with respect to managing in a medium to large company. Companies post policies to protect the organization and its employees. The NYCT policy instruction manual fills (2) 6" binders. I am hired to manage. I am hired to accomplish certain goals within the framework of the collective bargaining agreement, the rules and regulations of the organization and while following all of the policies of the organization. This is what I am expected to do.
I like to use the example of the collective bargaining agreement when dealing with the TWU. Take for example summer vacations. The CBA limits to 16% of any work-group, the number of employees who can be on vacation at any time. Now, I can exceed that quota and be a cool boss. However, then I run excess overtime and am not doing my job fully.
On the other hand, the shop chairman will come to me and ask for just one additional person to be granted vacation. He knows that I can do it. However I remind him of the 16% provision of the contract. I them will usually ask him which other provisions of the contract he wants me to dis-regard. Does he want me to dis-regard the mandatory lunch-break? Does he want me to arbitrarilly eliminate labor Day as a paid holiday?
The point is that every policy, every rule and every clause of the CBA should be given equal weight. If you weaken one, you weaken all and you weaken the organization. Do I bend it some time? We all do! But don't expect me to say that as a matter of routine, I disregard policies I chose not to enforce for the sake of being cool. My employees appreciate consistency - not cool.
Mike (and others), During my dinner break tonight (working nights tonight)I attempted to answer the question posed by you (mike) in true train dude style - just the facts - ma'am, just the facts. I thought it was a pretty honest answer. After posting it, I went back to work but had a sense that it was not right. When I got back here, I logged back on and found what was bothering me. The Cookie on my computer was wrong. Instead of train dude, the posting was under subgirl. Apparently no one else had caught this but that was the name on my posting. The answer was from me and not from subgirl.
Apparently, one of my cohorts had posted at least one message to me under the subgirl handle. Two things should be noted here. I'm not sure where the original posting was going to lead but I pre-empted it. I'm also not sure which one of my 'partners' is subgirl but I can assure you that he is probably not female. Oh, one other thing, just to show that I have a sense of humor too, I've left a suprise in the desk of the most likely suspect.
The train dude has a sense of humor too.
i suppose you're wondering why i called this meeting?
almost six months to the day when someone posted, using my handle, an invitation to a walking tour of the remnants of the manhattan beach lirr, we have had an incident last night that involved the planting of an unauthorized cookie in the posting of train dude's answer to jersey mike...
kay... now any of you gentlemen have an explanation for this new imposter?...
i have been sitting up all night and have proved with geometric logic, that someone has made a duplicate key to the cookie and handle locker... unauthorized use of other people's cookies on a message board is serious business...
as of now, 0617, gentlemen you are all appointed a board of investigation to find out who is responsible for this misuse of cookies... i expect a full report at 0800... don't stand there, get on the ball, we ought to have a little fun for a change now that we have some detective work to do....
Since this is the second time password saving has proved to be a problem, is it possible to add a "Save Password" checkbox? If one is not to check this box, the password would be discarded from the cookie. If checked, the password would be saved and so would the state of the check.
For safety, the checkbox by default would not be checked.
I have noticed that if you (with Netscape) use the view by source (right click on page) see all the information about the page, including the user's password. This is VERY disturbing, as it means that everybody's password is visible to anyone on this board that wants it.
VERY SCARY
This post is being sent to Dave Pirmann by e-mail, as perhaps he can correct this "feature".
It works like that under IE, too. But no matter whose post I look at, I always see my password in there. I don't see the password of the poster. So I guess this would mean that the display of the password through "view, source" could be seen by others sharing the same computer and thus "lifted" that way.
Unless I've missed something?
--Mark
What are you talking about?
You can see *your own* password in the view source because the cookie
fills in the box for you. It's only a risk if you let other people use your computer, or are using a public PC and accepting cookies.
I don't see where you can see *other people's* passwords in a view source. I don't see *your* password in your post when I view source, I see *mine* (in the form for following up that is attached to every post you read).
-Dave
I also noticed that if you typot your user name or pw you get an error page listing what you typed including the pw you used in non ***** form. I know that the possibility of someone looking over my shoulder to skim off my Subtalk pw is very slim, bit it is a security hole.
I think that could be arranged but it will take some time to revise the code. However the problem is not actually limited to this board. I suspect I could do a lot of damage if I had access to your cookie file (like, shall we say, One Click Ordering on Amazon? I don't know how that works exactly but it certainly doesn't require I type in a password.)
The real solution is-- if you don't want people poking around in your stuff, don't let them on your PC. Or at least use NT that has some semblance of security.
-Dave
I don't let anybody use my computer, but some people use public terminals or want to post from other people's computers.
In the case of public terminals, people can't go into the settings to delete cookies.
I still want to know what happened to the strawberries, USS Caine.
Don't you know, Ed, the mess boys ate the strawberries.
[The Cookie on my computer was wrong.]
Was that a chocolate chip or Oatmeal and raisin cookie?
:-)
Rim shot! Peanut butter, perhaps?
It was NOT a COOKIE - it was a FRUIT NEWTON! :o>
(((wayne)))
Are you trying to imply that the Cookie was a mere FigNewton of my imagination???
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, the cookie just stores whatever you last used to post with. In case anyone's thinking that it's cookies at fault here, it's unlikely that anyone tampered with the cookie itself.
the plot thickens... i am troubled by a lack of solution to this puzzle... ( i say this, as i meticulously spread cream cheese on a small piece of toast )... how did the "subgirl" cookie get on train dude's plate?... i know he was complaining the other day that his plate has been very full lately... could this be another worker's cookie?
and dougie... why were you inquiring about the type of cookie?... i don't think it was a coincidence you mentioned oatmeal raisin, as i am very fond of pepperidge farm's soft baked oatmeal raisin cookies?... were you trying to incriminate me in this, especially since i was very personally involved in the last major case of impersonation here...you know if i wasn't surrounded by a crew of disloyal officers, i wouldn't have to stoop to these criminal acts to gain attenton....uhhhhhh, i think i may have just gotten carried away...
Yes, my mention of oatmeal raisin was intentional...
Doug aka BMTman
Dave,
perhaps I used the wrong terminology. The indication was that someone used my computer to post a message on subtalk (2nd time). This time, whoever it was did not take the stored info out of the handle & password fields. When i post, I rarely check this because my computer is (usually) protected [although I carelessly left it running over night]. The problem on my computer is now corrected, permanently (i think). Subgirl will never be able to access it again. As for subgirl - I have an idea who it is. What you do about him is up to you.......
Ok, so that message from subgirl was from you. I was all excited that we finally had a female poster. He/she/it had posted another message and I was tempted to point out this amazing subtalk first. What other subtalker would have access to your PC if you don't mind me asking? Are you like posting from work or have you gotten family members interested in railfanning.
Mike, the minutia of my cyber-life shouldn't be all that interesting. The posting, in all likelihood would have gone unnoticed if I hadn't called it to everyone's attention. I did so just so you'd understand that the subject posting was from me and not subgirl. This thread has already taken on too much of a life beyond it's actual importance. It is a question of the security of my PC and my carelessness. If anyone was affected by it, other than Dave, I appologize for my carelessness. The situation has been corrected. Can we move on?
The question about female posters has come up here several times. Each time we reach the concensus that the sex of the poster is not significant. However, if you pay attention you will find that we have many female posters. I know of 2 college students, a train operator, a station agent and a porn star who post here on a regular or semi-regular basis. There are many others too. Just pay attention but remember, most want to discuss trains or they'd be elsewhere. BTW: Don't ask your next obvious question because I won't answer it.
Fine, I won't ask you who the porn star is, it you didn't want people to ask/know you shouldn't have brought it up.
I would only want to congradulate the female subtalkers for breaking down the barrier in this male dominated hobby. They sould be publically recognized for bring a fresh perspective to our little community.
If the subgirl thing was a prank (not a misunderstanding) I must admit that it was pretty clever. All of my friends think that railfanning is so boring they wouldn't come near SubTalk even for the prupose of a prank.
[However, if you pay attention you will find that we have many female posters. I know of 2 college students, a train operator, a station agent and a porn star who post here on a regular or semi-regular basis.]
Having a porn star who also is a railfan is sort of like having a Catholic nun who also is an avid skateboarder - from a strictly practical standpoint, it is within the realm of possibility, but it nevertheless has to be regarded as unlikely in the extreme.
I could take a guess: it would be a famous porn star who lives near the NY Transit Museum (I prefer not to mention her name for the sake of her privacy).
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, since there was a brief private correspondence, I was able to confirm with a fair degree of certainty that the poster was who she claimed to be.
[- from a strictly practical standpoint, it is within the realm of possibility, but it nevertheless has to be regarded as unlikely in the extreme.]
Why? I don't understand why there should be any correlation. positive or negative, between porn star and subfan. Porn stars are people, just as many railfans are.
A Porn star railfan -- Why not -- Bet she could come up with some saucy foamer videos. :~>
[The question about female posters has come up here several times ...
There are many ...]
This is not something new for us long time posters. BTW, we've just added a female to the 3/4 Ton Crew at Shoreline/Branford ... welcome Doris ... and she's not the only female there either. I think it was the night ride in Lo-V a couple of weeks ago that hooked her. Nothing like a bunch of sweaty guys at a open storm door to make you want to strip off paint from a Red Bird ;-)
Mr t
Thurston, you forgot to point out that one of our fellow SubTalkers, David Shanske, has now joined the ranks of that very elite group at BERA: Trolley Operator!
David lucked out in that he was able to take his written and road test the same day. He passed both with flying colors, and now gets to have his chops busted by dispatch like the rest of us! ;-)
Congratulations to Dave!
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, he's one of the magificant seven qualified operators in the 3/4 Ton Crew, 5 this year, Ding Ding or as our friend from Bean Town (who's here on the radio today) likes to say ... Buzz Buzz.
Mr t__:^)
Actally, Mr. t_:^), one LONG BUZZZZZZZ for you today!!
I was on radio from 5-7am only from my house in Boston. The magic of radio. I was on the 7:45 MBTA commuter train from Mishawum to North Station as usual to get to the "day job." Just a little groggy, that's all!
ding ding back at ya!
Well, unless you want me to go back and delete the message (I'd have to go figure out which one it was after all this) I'm not going to do anything to him unless I figure out he's got more than one handle. Otherwise, I don't really care that a person's nickname is gender-bent...
-Dave
Thanks Dave but rest assured that his sense of humor is no match for mine.
As someone who has been a frequent reader but only an occasional poster here on SubTalk, I would just like to add my voice to those asking the Train Dude to stick around. While I realize his presence here is "unofficial", he certainly seems to be the most reliable "inside" TA source posting here. It would be a shame to lose that as a result of differing sensitivities or opinions about irrelevant issues.
As for Heypaul's humor, the thing that bothers me most about it has got to be the constant jokes on the subject of mental illness. Anyone who has had to deal in any way with issues relating to this subject knows it is no laughing matter. The fake news stories are just plain dumb, I don't find them offensive, but neither do I find them funny.
QUESTION:
Why such a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE numerical
leap in the IRT contracts between the
(r-62 & r-142)... i/e why can't the
142's water themselves down and
take an "r-70" billing?? Or any other
number.. why such a HUUUUUUUUUGE
numerical leap between r-62 and r-142?
After all, the redbird car club will tell
ya, them 142s aint really that special..
Contract numbers refer to OTHER EQUIPMENT.
You'd know that if you visited other parts of the site.
South Ferry, every thing the TA buys is an R-Contract and is given a contract number. The TA hasn't bought any subway cars between 1984 (R62/R62A) till 1997. That's an 11 year difference. The TA does buy things in between. Here's a R-Contract list from Joe Kormans's site...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
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You were so busy putting graphics in your post, you forgot all about the R68/68A, and that's part of your handle!
The R68/68A were ordered in 1986-7 (most of the 68A's bear 1988 (1987?) on the builders plates). R110A/110B were the design contracts for the new tech trains, whose actual contract numbers are R130 and R131. Don't forget the work motors from KAW, R127 and R134. Various other equipment such as cranes, hoppers, and even roll signs have been covered by 'R' contracts.
Initially, the 'R' was for 'Revenue', but has come to be used on any contract affecting rolling stock, no matter the use. In fact, contract R1 was for the original IND cars, and R2 was trucks for those cars. After the R4/5 contract, the trucks were included in the main contract.
-Hank
Oh no! Well, the R68/R68As were built from 1986 till 1989. The builder plates on the R68As have 1988 and 1989.
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Mmmmmmmmaybe a lil re-wording would do...
The question was NOT does everything have a contract
number; nor was it what do contract numbers refer to.
It was:
Why did the TA assign the 142's the (142) number?
Couldn't they have been assigned r-63 in keeping
with the tradition of linear numericals (i/e
the r-15, r-16, r-17;) notice how the numbers
are in order and not like (r-62, r-12513, r-66454)?
Could linear numerical tradition have been honored
with the 142 series??
No rewording required. I totally understand what you mean. Okay, say the TA orders the R62/R62As. Then the TA has to buy another Track Geometry Car right after. The TA will use R63 because it is the next unused contract number. 142 was selected as the contract probably because it was the next free number. They don't reserve numbers for subway cars. They just use the next closest one. Dig?
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Not next closest, they go sequentially. As soon as an RFP (Request For Proposals) goes out, the project has a contract number. If they don't buy, they don't buy. They move on to the next contract.
-Hank
Thanks R68A 5200 & Hank for the answers.
Shame that's how it's done.. would be a heck
of a specialty if a unit had been designated
r-100... or r-(any number skipped) in reaching
r-142... at this rate, we'll soon have
r-131516523624643634d... and wait'll someone
omits a random number in that numerical designation..
Via Satellite, from Champaign, IL.
i had been quite happy with the get together last saturday over my apartment until i looked underneath my bed... i usually check under there once or twice a week to see if the dust has piled up to the mattress level yet... well last night i checked and was horrified to find a large seed pod... up till then i really didn't mind that people had left soda cups all over the house, since i couldn't tell them from the ones that i had previously left... i didn't mind that someone had left his glasses and key chain... however, leaving a seed pod, is down right sinister... fortunately it had not germinated... i pulled it out to see if i could identify who the perpetrator of this attempt on my persona... i was surprised to find a brass builder's plate on which was inscribed:
rodney dangerfield metapod
shell grown in outerspace
genetically modified in cc repair shops 2000
i am trying to convince the authorities to contact the fbi, however in their eyes i have been discredited by my recent fears that the current presidential and vice-presidential candidates are holographic images...
Paul,
Little hint: either get better writers, or stop the humor attempts.
18% of the time they are really funny. If you are paying, the money is being wasted.
I thought that was funny. It made me chuckle out loud.
You need to get better writers as well, your money is currently being wasted, and Train Dude is 100% correct in his opinion of you.
The extended inhospitable beach weather last week inspired another more weekday railfanning. On Wednesday the 2nd, I set out super early with the intention of catching the 7:14 AM from Newark Penn Station to High Bridge. I had never been past Somerville on the Raritan line before. Unfortunately, delays on the 'F' from Queens into Manhattan and a temperamental dollar receptacle at the 23rd Street PATH turnstile made it impossible to make it on time.
Instead, I headed to Hoboken to check the progress of the light rail construction. When I emerged from the terminal, the sun was starting to come out a little, so I walked along the new waterfront park which was decorated with large maps showing not-as-yet built parkland and an equally unbuilt HBLR running in and out of the terminal. After a detour around the Stevens Institute campus, which offered some very impressive skyline views, I headed south into Jersey City.
The rail yards force you to walk west on Observer Highway past a very new looking NJT office building, then south under all the terminal approach tracks onto Marin Boulevard and into JC. I could see the beginnings of the light rail overpass over 18th Street just east of the A & P shopping center. Immediately north of 18th, the embryonic rails neatly split east towards the terminal and west along the projected through route towards North Bergen. It looks at least a year away from completion.
Barely escaped with my life crossing the Holland Tunnel approach, technically 12th Street. There was a surprisingly large number of commuter coaches heading into the tunnel, possibly to save New Jersey commuters who work in lower Manhattan having to take the subway downtown from PA. I would suspect these buses probably drop off and pick up around the World Trade Center or Battery Park.
Continued south on Marin Boulevard. Newport Mall seems much closer to the waterfront than the Boulevard, and could not be seen behind a huge network of parking garages. Just south of 6th Street, there appears to be the remnants of an overpass embankment on the Boulevard's west side. If I remember, there was an Erie Lackawanna branch that terminated at Pavonia until about the 1950s. Any remaining traces of a ROW on the east side was obliterated by a Radio Shack.
Further along south, a combination of low-rise projects and expensive looking high rises began to appear. A look down Columbus Drive towards the river revealed a long line of tall office buildings. Several buses discharged huge crowds of people in front of the Grove Street entrance. After Montgomery, it became more gentrified, with more brownstones. Marin ceases to become a through street south of Grand Street, but runs a long distance to the Basin and HBLR ROW.
A brick walkway runs east from Marin along the ROW onto Essex Street. I don't know how local residents can even complain about noise from the light rail, when the sounds of jackhammering obscures anything else. Warren and Washington Streets from Essex south to the Basin resembles Battery Park City, with a few completed high rises (with 'gourmet' delis at ground level) surrounded by dozens more in various stages of construction.
Most of the waterfront paralleling the ROW is blocked off by more construction all the way to Exchange Place, although there is a nice small park (signed as part of Liberty State Park) commemorating the Morris Canal. It's already become popular with early morning joggers and dog walkers. The few inbound HBLR cars that passed me had very few passengers, and it was still only 8:30, well within rush hour.
Every time I see the area around Exchange Place, I can't help but be reminded of Market Street in San Francisco. It must be the waterfront atmosphere, the virtual canyon of office buildings and the presence of light rail cars. (Contrary to TV and movie cliche, no cable cars operate ALONG Market Street, but both lines terminate at it.) I had wanted to light rail down to Liberty Park to see the restored rail terminal, but it was starting to rain again, so I fought my way down the PATH escalators.
Huge crowds were coming off both in and outbound trains, further bolstering credibility that Exchange Place has become a huge employment center. Despite this, I could barely fit on a WTC-bound train at 8:50. It came in on WTC's Track 2, which indicates it originated at Hoboken (unless PATH trains change their Jersey route designation between inbound and outbound runs). If a Hoboken-WTC AM train was that crowded, that shows that not enough people are using the ferry. Maybe the wet weather kept them off. Maybe the two-dollar boat fare versus a buck for PATH. Or does PATH offer a fare discount with its card a la Metrocard? Either way, the ferry does not seem to serving its purpose of relieving crowding on PATH.
I couldn't help but notice how varied the Marin Boulevard signs were. Some just read 'Marin'; other 'L. Marin'; 'L(o)uis Marin'; ad occasionally the full 'Luis Munoz Marin' with the appropriate accents.
Downtown Hoboken had many city street maps which extended south into JC just enough to show 'Henderson Street'. These maps also showed the unbuilt HBLR.
[Huge crowds were coming off both in and outbound trains, further bolstering credibility that Exchange Place has become a huge employment center. Despite this, I could barely fit on a WTC-bound train at 8:50. It came in on WTC's Track 2, which indicates it originated at Hoboken (unless PATH trains change their Jersey route designation between inbound and outbound runs). If a Hoboken-WTC AM train was that crowded, that shows that not enough people are using the ferry. Maybe the wet weather kept them off. Maybe the two-dollar boat fare versus a buck for PATH. Or does PATH offer a fare discount with its card a la Metrocard? Either way, the ferry does not seem to serving its purpose of relieving crowding on PATH.]
I don't believe that the ferries ever were intended to relieve the crowding on PATH to any significant extent. Their capacity isn't large enough and the docks (on both the New Jersey and Manhattan ends) are less conveniently located. I've viewed the ferries as offering a more pleasant and scenic alternative, especially in nice weather - which, of course, might explain why they weren't crowded on the day of your waterfront walk.
How is the area around Newport Centre? Did you see the mall itself?
I'm thinking of going there.
Walking from the PATH to the mall, you walk through Newport [Centre?] Tower and then into an enclosed elevated pedestrian walkway that goes right over the tracks and future station area for HBLRT. If you want to see it from ground level, instead of going through the office tower, use the ground-level walkway (without doors) that goes through the building just to the left of the office tower entrance.
There seems to be a lot of surburban-style shopping growing around Newport. Stuff with big parking lots, few people walking, and generally difficult access even for the people coming off the PATH or who live a few minutes' walk away in the luxury high-rises-- the mall seems to be about the only shopping with pedestrian-friendly access in the area.
I couldn't help but notice how varied the Marin Boulevard signs were. Some just read 'Marin'; other 'L. Marin'; 'L(o)uis Marin'; ad occasionally the full 'Luis Munoz Marin' with the appropriate accents.
Sounds like another Beverl(e)y Road in the making.
--Mark
Why did you choose to walk down Marin instead of taking the longer way around via Washington Street? That way would be much more interesting. You pass the PATH cassion and emergency exit, the construction of the HBLR overpasses, stations at the Mall, Harsimus, and Harborside, the Pavonia/Newport Path station, the H&M Powerhouse (inactive) and substation (active), etc.... There's also another emergency exit from the tunnels under Washington colocated with the substation.
So what else is in Jersey City?
Compared to all that, Marin is not particularly interesting, at least if you're a railfan. The one thing you do get to see from Marin and not from Washington is the PRR Harsimus Branch freight viaduct. The stonework is still intact but the wide bridges over the streets, and the single track bridge over Newark Ave., were removed in the past 2-3 years.
Also at the corner of Marin (nee-Henderson) and Columbus, from which corner you noted the Grove St. station, was the old H&M/PATH Henderson Yard. Nothing left of it! There's an elementary school there now.
Down Columbus the other way (west), about six blocks from Marin, is the end of the former PRR Exchange Place viaduct. It transitioned from a stone viaduct to steel El at Columbus (nee-Railroad Ave.) and Brunswick Sts. (right where I live, in fact). Just past there under the turnpike is the PATH tunnel portal and a short tunnel for the National Docks Secondary where it passes under the PATH and former PRR lines.
Between Marin and Washington on Columbus is a H&M/PATH tunnel shaft and air exchanging equipment building. Pretty nondescript from the outside but it's mentioned in Coppola's Silver Connections Vol 4.
If you had continued down Observer Highway instead of turning on Marin/Henderson, you'd have come across a freight RR (National Docks Secondary) and a short way along that would have led you to the Bergen Arches, the Erie RR's entryway into Jersey City.
-Dave
Sighted yesterday (8/7) at 4:35pm, ACELA Express engine 652, and cars 48153 + 9641. The consist was facing northbound, and idle on the northbound track (is that track 1?) just outside South Station, where the WYE track (now severed) cuts off from the main line.
That wasn't an 'Express' you saw, that was a regional with a new HHP-8 toaster. The 'Express' sets are numbered in the 2000 range, the HHP-8s in the 650 and up range. Those new locomotives are entering service this month on NE Corridor trains.
-Hank
Thanks for the clarification, Hank. We were moving and nearly by it when I caught a glance, thus the mid-ID.
I thought that the AEM-7's were nicknamed "toasters". If the HHP-8 is truely faster and more powerful they should be called something different like "toaster-ovens" or "microwaves".
AEM-7s are Toasters to west coast and midwest railfans, and Sweedish Meatballs to everyone who actually gets to see them in real life...
When AEM-7's first took over NEC duties from GG1's, I heard them called Mighty Mouse before I heard Toasters.
albeit the origional Sweedish prototype looked like a toaster, EMD did a great job of Americanizing the design. I think that Mighty Mouse would be the best name. Hey, the NJT ALP's could be called Disco Balls. along with the dicso stripes on a silver background they are cvered with reflective tape that lights up with you take a flash picture.
Since HHL-8s have slant noses at each end, can they be called "toasters"?
Chaohwa
Well, you could call them electric jellybeans...
I said toaster because they're small electrics, as are the AEM7. These are just the newest model. I made the comparison because I (meaning Jodi and I) have been adding things to our wedding registry, and have seen the latest in toasters. Then I went home and looked at my Mom's.
-Hank :)
From Railpace magazine ....
MICROSOFT TRAIN SIMULATOR TO DEBUT: Microsoft Corp. today announced that it will release "Microsoft(R) Train Simulator," a software program designed to simulate the thrills of the railways on the personal computer, in the spring of 2001. Attendees at the National Model Railroad Association's (NMRA) National Train Show next week in San Jose, Calif., will be the first to see an early version of the software and experience the excitement and adventure of "Microsoft Train Simulator." "Train Simulator" aims to bring the most true-to-life virtual train experience to the PC. Working in cooperation with six of the world's leading railroads, Microsoft is re-creating hundreds of miles of routes with realistic scenery, equipment and operations. Using multiple camera angles, players can take on the role of an engineer, passenger or bystander. Lifelike engineer's control panels, scenery and weather; and accurate elevations and terrain data mirror real-world train travel. Player activities can include anything from keeping passenger time schedules while managing unforeseen barriers and negotiating freight through mountain passes in winter storms to navigating some of the world's busiest commuter lines. Players can operate nine different trains, ranging from steam locomotives and modern diesels to high-speed electric "bullet trains," as they travel any of six famous rail routes from around the globe. These routes include both historic and contemporary rail operations. The six railroads included in "Microsoft Train Simulator" are listed below:
Amtrak.
Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway.
The Flying Scotsman Railways
Kyushu Railway Co.
Odakyu Electric Railway.
The Venice-Simplon Orient Express.
The NMRA National Train Show takes place Aug. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center. Attendees can test-drive "Microsoft Train Simulator" at booth 592-594. More information about the train show can be found on the NMRA's Web site at www.nmra.org. Scheduled for broad availability in spring 2001, "Microsoft Train Simulator" will deliver unparalleled realism, enabling PC users to accurately re-create railroading adventures from a desktop. "Microsoft Train Simulator" is being developed in conjunction with United Kingdom-based Kuju Entertainment. More information on Kuju Entertainment is available on the Web at www.kuju.com. More information about "Microsoft Train Simulator" and the participating railroads is available on its official Web site at http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/. (Microsoft via Steve Benkovitz - posted 7/25)
I remember seeing, and taking a picture of Bombardier R142 #6315. Is there a similar set from Kawasaki (7221-7225), and what is planned for these cars?
BTW, 6315 can be found on this page.
Well, I have no clue what you are talking about. But, Bombardier delivered 12 R142s at first. The first 10 were tested on the Dyre Line Express Tracks. The other 2 were for maintainence training and were sent to one of the yards. Kawasaki, as far as I know, sent only 10. The 10 currently running on the 6 Line.
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Kawasaki has a whole yard full of cars just waiting to be delivered.
It's at their plant, just north of the Yonkers Metro-North station. I saw it last week, there must be at least 6 complete 10-car trains (60 cars) waiting there. No, I'm not sure if they are all 100% complete with all interior finishings, but passing by quickly they seemed to be whole.
08/08/2000
"Kawasaki has a whole yard full of cars just waiting to be delivered."
Is that right? What if due to current testing these cars have to be pulled back inside to be modified. Seems they're making them faster than they can test them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like the TA's ready to take them in regardless of anything happening in the system with the test train right now. This is not necessarily a bad thing when one considers the condition of the Redbird Fleet, the TA's wants those new cars in ASAP.
By the way, since Kawasaki is a head of the game with car production, doesn't one think the company is getting rewarded for turning out rolling stock ahead of schedule?
-Stef
They aren't ahead of schedule. Both were originally supposed to be here in February 1999. Then in May, Bombardier said May 1999 and Kawasaki said November 1999. Finally they both arrive in December 1999. Both sets were 10 months late. Wheeww! How much extra money is the TA going to get for these orders?
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As of right now this is what's done
In Serivce:
7211-7220...Kawasaki R142A
6301-6310...Bombardier R142
At 180th Yard:
6311-6330...Bombardier R142
At Yonkers Kawasaki:
7209-7210, 7221-7240...Kawasaki R142A
Hope this helps!
Trevor Logan
Where are the R-110As, right now? I couldn't see them around 180th, are they done modifying it? Is it ready for service?
The R-110A was moved from 239th to 180th for a short while, I was up there friday of last week and the R-110A was no where in sight, it's where about as of right now is unknown.
Trevor
They must be hanging out at 239th St where they spend most of the time in dead storage.
-Stef
08/08/2000
Re: 7209-7210
Hey Trevor, you said something about the above cars that they weren't Bombardier cars but rather Kawasaki. Fresh my failing memory!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, if you remember a while back I snapped pics of two cars on the GWB, they were both 7209 and 7210, as per order they were slated to be Bombardier Car numbers, but when I took a pic of the delivery plaque on the cars, it stated that these were Kawasaki Boys instead, with RED seats at that!
Trevor Lgaon
While i took a ride on #2 line to 242th St. When the train pass Unionport Yard & i saw R142A #7236-#7240 On Track #20. Look like they deliver today from Kawasaki Plant but it have something on the truck with yellow bar that lock the wheel of the truck.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I saw 7231-7240 at UP yesterday. I took a few pictures from the flyover the 5 uses to get to the WPR line from the Dyre line. I was lucky enough to be in a car with the slide down windows to get some clear shots of these two 5-car sets (not a full 10-car train, though. 7235 and 7236 were seperated by a few inches.) They appeared to have pieces of paper taped on the doors where they come together. In all, I got 3 pictures of this train: one of the whole train, one of 7237, and one of 7231.
They are there due to problems. The shoes were incorrectly mounted--too high. New shoes were attached but they were too low. Then they were correctly mounted but spring tension was incorrect and they were ripped off.SOURCE: Train operator at E180
Yikes! Sounds like a problem to me. 7241-7250 have just arrived from Yonkers and is also at Unionport Yard, next to 7231-7240.
-Stef
7231-7240 have been there for several weeks now. I start at East180 1 night each week.
Last week I rode a R142 On the #6 line and when I got on board the train it already left the station and when it was going quick it started giving me dizzy headaches if any of you got on the R142 don't you fell kind of dizzy when it goes guick?
Well, I rode it 2 times. I never had any problems. I do have problems when a R40 speeds northbound out from Prospect Park to 7th Avenue. My ears start having this problem... sorta like the Empire State Building Elevator going top to bottom or when an airplane descends fast. Next time, try chewing some gum.
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Whenever an R68 train enters the 60th street tube, I feel pressure in my ears. The strongest pressure is felt when on an LIRR train after it enters the East River tubes. And my ears hurt then.
I believe these cars have slightly faster acceleration. I only experienced symptoms similar to what you're describling when lying down in the seat while going express from Hunts Point to Parkchester.
I didn't get any headache on the 142 or 142a. The cars that used to give me headaches were the R-10s. I got a very distinctive ache in the back of my head when I rode those trains, so I learned to avoid them. It wasn't just speed, it was something distinctive about the physical vibrations in those cars.
That describes what I get when riding those Kawasakis on the Philly Broad St. Line. I assumed it was because of the incredible loudness of the line. I thought it was just me, but then I noticed that often, no one is talking while on the express runs, perhaps talking encourages the dull ache and passengers must avoid the feeling, or the pain removes one's desire to speak. Of course, they can't avoid it any way other than by taking the local. I found the section between Erie and Olney had it the most. I wouldn't have even noticed it until I concentrated on the noise, vibrations, etc. Now, it does not go unnoticed, no matter how hard I try to ignore it. I guess the cause is partly the speed (60+, i hear).
I hate to admit it but in my days as a motorman The R10 and their R12/14 cousins used to make me VERY sleepy. Something about the way the head end bounced. The R46 with their air springs gave me that problem too. Not good when you're running a train full of passengers. I didn't have that problem with any other equipment.
If speeding trains give you a headache, try to ride R-68's as much as possible. I guarantee that you'll be fine.
08/08/2000
The only headache I'm getting from the R-142's is when I find the time to ride them, I find out they aren't running. I still have yet to ride the Bombardier set.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some C/R'S and T.S.S's have said they had a Headache by the time the train got to Hunts Point. The cause everyone has came up with is the Bright Lights.
I agree with you Pelham Bay Dave I think that I get dizzy when I board the R142 is because of the bright lights also something else. When I get on board I kind of smell perfume or something like thats what got me dizzy.
And those bright lights are a killer when you meet them coming at you in a dark tunnel.
It's most likely fumes from new plastics. There's usually an odor similar to that of a new shower curtain.
-Hank
Last week I saw a set or R32's running on the crosstown line. Was this a one time deal, or is this happening all the time now?
Dave
how long was the train?
It was not possible to count, because of the asbestos boards at Smith/9th. I saw it from the front as we came around the viaduct going north. It started to pull out and was definitely signed for Crosstown.
I once saw a train of R32 cars on the G line. It was a 10-car train.
It did happen before. Usually it is because some R46s assigned to G line went under maintenance or had some mechanical problems to cause equipment shortage. Therefore, an R32 train will supplament the G line.
An R32 G train consists of 10 cars. Someboday at Subtalk asked why it is a 10-car train instead of an eight-car train. I forgot that reason. Maybe somebody will explain it.
Chaohwa
R46 cars are 75 feet long. R32 cars are 60 feet long. A train of ten R32s is the same length as one of eight R46es.
Mark
Yes, but there are 150 extra feet on a 10 car train of R-32s vs. a 6 car train of R-46s. To answer the previous poster, they probably don't snip off the extra cars because either the conductor boards for the shorter trains are positioned for 6 car R-46s, or why bother if the train will be back on the E tomorrow.
08/08/2000
"It did happen before. Usually it is because some R46s assigned to G line went under maintenance or had some mechanical problems to cause equipment shortage. Therefore, an R32 train will supplament the G line. "
Sounds like those good old reliable R-32's came to the rescue. I can't fathom seeing any R-32's being scrapped in the future.
Bill "Newkirk"
What are you talking about? Good old reliable R32s? What happens when a R32 is pulled from the E Line and a R46 fills in? This is hardly about reliability. This is about inspection. Trains at Jamaica Yard get inspected every 10,000 operating miles. You get 22 Trains a day on the instection tracks.
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The reason is that since about half of the G trains get laid up when they cut back to Court Square, you could lay up the R32 to D4 track Union Turnpike station. Approximately four trains are laid up there. If you ride between 75 Ave and Union Turnpike, occassionally you will see an R32 with G or R signs on the side. Those trains will return to E service the next day. If Continental Ave needs an R32 the next day, it will come from Jamaica Yard. Also, eight car R46s appear occassionally on the G. This train is usually an R train originally scheduled to lay up.
Isn't Union Turnpike right near Jamaica Yard anyway? Why lay them up on the road when there's a nice yard nearby, with coffee and warm blankets. Is Jamaica that full?
Excuse my Geography.
Brooklyn-centric, Dave
Jamaica Yard is the largest yard in the system and it is still full. It is so big that trains are laid up on the express tracks between 169 Street on the F Line to 75 Avenue on the E/F Lines. That's in addition to the fleet already in the yard itself.
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I thought Coney Island Yard is the largest yard in the system?
Ooops... I meant to re-phrase it. I meant that Jamaica Yard has one of the largest fleet assigned to it. Not size.
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Doesn't the Coney Island complex has 3 yards - Stillwell Yard (between the B & N trains), Ave X Yard(where F trains lay up between the loop track and the Culver Line) and Coney Island Yard (the tracks that are "encased" within the loop track, and some between the loop track and the N train)? If this is true, than technically Jamaica might be the largest yard.
--Mark
Yeah, it just depends on wheather you count Coney as one complex, or as 3 yards. Either way - It's a wicked big place.
If we are talking car-storage capacity, then Jamaica Yard is by no means the largest yard in car capacity. Storage tracks number from 38 track through 68 track. The old loop track is #26 and also used for storage. 26 track holds approximately 18 R-46s while 41 and 42 will hold about 12 each. All the rest will hold about 10 cars so you can do the math. Installing tracks 1-25 is being held up by environmentalists & "Friends of Willow Lake".
I am not sure about the capacity of the Coney island Complex but it is made up of 3 yards. City yard & Stillwell yard are not even close and I don't think that Coney Island Yard proper is the largest.
It would appear that in car-storage capacity, Concourse yard, with a capacity in excess of 400 cars is the largest. I can't locate the documentation to support this.
From "New York City Transit Authority Twenty Year Capital Needs Assessment 1992-2001" (which came out in 1990):
IRT
Yard/Capacity
E. 180th Street/283
137th Street/100
148th Street/197
239th Street/475
240th Street/165
Jerome/203
Corona/390
Livonia/187
Westchester/446
Total/2,446
IND-BMT (60-foot equivalents)
Yard/Capacity
174th Street/43
207th Street/388
Avenue X/216
Canarsie/162
Coney Island/702
Concourse/373
East New York/174
Fresh Pond/115
Jamaica/352
Pitkin/457
Rockaway Park/102
Stillwell/370
38th Street/236
Total/3,690
So, the three yards making up the Coney Island complex (Avenue X, Coney Island, and Stillwell) together could hold 1,288 60-foot cars as of 1990. I don't believe any yard expansions have been opened in the last 10 years.
David
Whoops! Typo -- make that 2011, not 2001.
David
Dave thanks for the post on car storage capacity at the various yards.One question at the E. 180th yard does the total cars there include Unionport yard?
I gave all the information I had. It's possible Unionport is just another name for E. 180th Street.
David
08/12/2000
"I gave all the information I had. It's possible Unionport is just another name for E. 180th Street."
I believe Unionport and East 180th St. yards are separate. Geographically they are.
Bill "Newkirk"
Your list counts Jerome and Concourse as separate yards. Is that how they are managed, with certain tracks allocated to each division? Train Dude?
-Dave
Jerome and Concourse are seperate yards. Jerome is west of the 4 Line. Concourse is east. They are 2 different yards.
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Oh I see.. I always assumed they were connected but a quick look at the track maps shows that's not the case...
Thanks,
-Dave
10-car trains of R-32s are used on the G because of the conductor board position at each station. IIRC, only the cabs at the blind ends of the R-32s have door controls. Consequently, the conductor's station will be at the fifth and sixth cars, and this location lines up with the boards when a 10-car train pulls up to the 10-car stopping mark.
I hope I explained it right.
The cabs at both ends of R-32s and R-38s have conductor controls, the C conductors stay between the 4th and 5th cars.
That's what I thought. I could be wrong.
Well, an R-32 is 60 ft. long while an R-46 is 75 ft. long. Therefore, 10 R-32's and 8 R-46's equals 600' in length.
I'm a daily commuter and periodic weekend user (though it has been taking quite a chance to use local stops betw. QP & Roosevelt on weekends because of perpetual G.O.s) at Queens Plaza, and I have been seeing R-32s on the crosstown line for months now. I can go weeks without seeing one, though, so I don't know how "permanent" the train is on the line. Can't remember how many cars it had on it either.
I saw one on the G too about two weeks ago. It's nice to see that light green on the rollsign.
:)Andrew
If I remember correctly there are 13 sets of AA cars (even numbers 6208 to 6258) as well as a 2 car AB set 6206 & 6207 which are added up to a standard 4 car unit to make up a 6 car R46 G train. With full sevice on the G being 12 trains, this means that there are 2 spare sets of 2 car pieces. If more than that are not availiable for service, then Jamaica Yard provides 10 car R32's as needed to make full service. Sometimes, you will see an 8 car R46 on the G. This primarily happens during the day if one of those 6 car sets goes bad on the road and has to go to Jamaica Yard. Rather than abandon a G interval, Continental will use a laid up (downstairs at Continental) R train and use it in G service till the switchman bring back another 6 car R46 replacement from the yard and the trains will be re-swapped....... Hope I didn't lose anybody!
Do you need lots of seniority to work a switching job?
Well, a little more than you have, yet even with my 19 1/2 years as a MOTORMAN, I couldn't get one that pays better than working the road. You gotta have a 1 or 2 digit file number and pick on the first morning.
Well I went down to 15/16th Station on PATCO to catch my train home. The train pulled in and I rushed to the railfan window. Well it was just a pig sty with newspaper on the seat, wrappers, drink containers and cigerette packs littering the floor. Well this didn't bother me too badly and I sat down and began to read my SEPTA Metro newspaper. Well were almost to Ferry Ave. when I turned my METRO over and found the cover covered in snot. Upon investigation I found snot smeared all over the front bulkhead of the train, just inches from my legs. Well I was lucky not to get any on myself, but I felt sick for the rest of the trip. Why are people so disgusting?
NOTE: It was not enough to drive me from my railfan window.
Are you sure it was snot?
Well it was much thicker than saliva with a consistancy akin to slug trails.
[Well it was much thicker than saliva with a consistancy akin to slug trails.]
Sounds like it could have been another bodily secretion, but for the sake of decency I won't say anything else.
I don't need that. It had bubbles suspended in it and it did appear wiped, not drooled.
Just to mention it (since this thread IS that disgusting and has already mentioned slug trails and has just mentioned certain other secretions) I was at a party last weekend where we actually watched 4 slugs 'doing it'. It was actually pretty cool, and it explains the slime.
-Hank :)
YECCH, IT'S FOAMER DRIBBLE!!! The railfan who occupied that railfan observation post before you merely had a foamer attack,leaving behind the residue which you noted --- the car cleaners will hose it down.
I'm not sure if anyone would know this, or where to look, but I thought I'd take a shot at some questions I had about the joint service:
1. Was there any regularly scheduled thru service by steel subway cars from Astoria to Times Sq. via the Steinway tubes?
2. Did Second Ave el service serve both lines, or just the Flushing?
3. Did the IRT run local and express service during the rush hours on the Flushing line alongside the BMT shuttles? Or did the shuttle provide the only local service?
4. Was the Astoria line's express track ever used for scheduled express service?
5. Did the BMT suffer in competition with the IRT trains because of the inconvienent transfer at Queensboro Plaza to get to/from the city? How did the competition fare? Did one company make more money than the other? Who benefited the most?
Yep, I know they're obscure, but so manyobscure questions have been answered in great detail before, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
I'm not sure if anyone would know this, or where to look, but I thought I'd take a shot at some questions I had about the joint service:
1. Was there any regularly scheduled thru service by steel subway cars from Astoria to Times Sq. via the Steinway tubes?
YES - the IRT ran Steinway tunnel trains to both Astoria and Flushing
2. Did Second Ave el service serve both lines, or just the Flushing?
Both
3. Did the IRT run local and express service during the rush hours on the Flushing line alongside the BMT shuttles? Or did the shuttle provide the only local service?
IRT ran both - and so did the BMT after 1939
4. Was the Astoria line's express track ever used for scheduled express service?
No
5. Did the BMT suffer in competition with the IRT trains because of the inconvienent transfer at Queensboro Plaza to get to/from the city? How did the competition fare? Did one company make more money than the other? Who benefited the most?
I just wanted to give you a quick answer to your questions for now, but looking at the way the revenue was split - the IRT carried more passengers, and therefore gained the larger share. According to the agreement between the companies revenue was split in proportion to passengers carried by each (don't ask me how they counted who took which service after they passed the fare controls).
Yep, I know they're obscure, but so manyobscure questions have been answered in great detail before, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
>>> 5. Did the BMT suffer in competition with the IRT trains because of the inconvienent transfer at Queensboro Plaza to get to/from the city? <<<
Chris;
As I posted just recently on this thread, there were no inter divisional transfers in Manhattan prior to July 1, 1948, so prior to then, the overriding concern would be where the final destination was rather than if the Queensboro Plaza transfer was inconvenient.
Also, further research, including the picture of the Triplex on the north side of Queensboro Plaza convinces me that you were correct in regard to track assignments at Queensboro Plaza prior to 1949, and my memory was faulty.
One of the things that changed my mind about the track assignments was an article in the NY Times, on May 29, 1949 on page 1 describing the placement of a 40 ton girder which would allow BMT trains from the 60th Street tunnel to use the IRT tracks at Queensboro Plaza. The article indicated that the girder was delivered to the station on three flat cars. My guess is that the only place they could have loaded that girder on three flat cars was the Corona yard.
This same article stated that the then present arrangement required passengers coming from Manhattan on the BMT to climb one flight of stairs to catch a shuttle to Flushing or Astoria. That would imply that the larger BMT trains from Manhattan used the lower platform and the shuttles used the upper platform.
I think the NY Times reporter got it wrong based on the picture of the Triplex and common sense. If the trains from Manhattan were on the upper platform, passengers would either have a cross platform or one flight down trip to get to the shuttle to Astoria or Flushing. Those coming from Queens transferring to a Manhattan bound train (on the lower platform) would also have either a cross platform transfer or one flight down. This makes a lot more sense than having all the transfer passengers going up and down a flight of stairs.
Another NY Times article on October 15, 1949, at page 17 announces that the IRT service to Astoria and the BMT shuttles would end at midnight and through BMT service to Astoria from Manhattan would begin the next day. IRT passenger wanting to go to Astoria and BMT passengers wanting to go to Astoria could make a cross platform transfer at Queensboro Plaza.
That was the end of passenger service on the north platforms.
Tom
As I posted just recently on this thread, there were no inter divisional transfers in Manhattan prior to July 1, 1948, so prior to then, the overriding concern would be where the final destination was rather than if the Queensboro Plaza transfer was inconvenient.
True, but If I wanted to get from 111th Street to Times Sq, I'd be more inclined to take the IRT than a BMT shuttle to Queensboro Plaza, then transfer to a steel subway train.
>>> If I wanted to get from 111th Street to Times Sq, I'd be more inclined to take the IRT than a BMT shuttle <<<
Chris;
You are absolutely right, if you were going to Times Square you would wait on the platform at 111th Street for an IRT train, but if you were going to the Plaza Hotel at 59th Street and Fifth Avenue, or Coney Island, you would wait on the platform for a shuttle and change at Queensboro Plaza. That's why the final destination rather than convenience at Queensboro Plaza is what would control whether one took an IRT train or a BMT shuttle.
BTW if you were going to Coney Island, you would probably change at the BMT Times Square station for an express since it was the Brighten Beach and 4th Avenue locals that went to Queensboro Plaza. If you came to Times Square on the IRT, the change to the BMT would cost an extra nickel fare.
Tom
I don't know the answers, but I'd like to add one more question, which is basically a follow-up to some information that was posted here a couple of weeks ago.
It was mentioned that, for a time, both the IRT and BMT ran shuttles from Ditmars Blvd. to Queensboro Plaza consisting of the same type of cars. I presume that the IRT-run trains stopped at the IRT-only platform at the Plaza, where passengers had the choice of Steinway Tube or 2nd Ave. El service, and that the BMT-run trains stopped at the BMT-only platform, where passengers could change only for BMT service via the 60th St. tube. My question is, how did passengers know which train was which?
Did the trains carry signs identifying themselves as IRT or BMT trains? If there was no way to tell them apart, I imagine there were some upset passengers who arrived at the wrong company's platform at Queensboro Plaza and found themselves having to pay an extra fare to access the line they wanted.
It's these questions which have fascinated me in recent days about this subject. I don't understand why the BMT would agree to such a bizarre service plan, especially since it couldn't use it's wider cars on any part of the line east of Queensboro Plaza. I wonder why the BMT didn't just take over complete control of the Astoria line to begin with, unless the profits made by running the shuttle service out to Flushing actually benefitted the BMT more than just operating to Astoria.
I believe the original agreements were signed before the BRT opted for the wider cars. The wider cars complicated matters. There were several proposals which changed over the years. The original plan was to divide the platforms in half, with two sets of fare controls in each station. This was no longer practical when the IRT started running longer trains. Then an agreement under which the companies divided revenues based upon car-miles travelled. This was re-negotiated and the final agreement called for a split in proportion to passengers carried.
Other proposals, which were never realized included running the BMT trains on a gantlet track. In spite of the disadvantages of the shuttle operation I am sure the BMT was able to attract more passengers (and revenue) to its lines by servicing both Astoria and Flushing than if they had serviced Astoria alone. Also they were able to provide service to the 1939 Fair (although this did not come into play when the agreements were signed).
Actually, the shuttle operation, which had previously been
covered in great depth a few weeks ago, used the northmost
tracks (upper & lower). This way the turn-around moves did
not conflict with thru operations. Free transfer was available
between platforms at QP, except prior to 1923, which was also
prior to the shuttle operations.
The shuttle cars were not the same type. Yes, they were both
"gate cars" with open platforms and retractable gates, although
perhaps the IRT used MUDCs in shuttle service, I don't know.
They might be difficult to distinguish from casual inspection of
a photograph, but I'm sure seasoned commuters knew the difference.
Besides, one could always refer to the name of the company which
was stenciled in big letters on the letterboard (area above the
windows) of these cars.
The only BMT trains to carry the company name on its letterboard were the Q-types. I have seen pictures of BMT gate car shuttles that carried a "BMT Lines" metal sign in front. The BMT also used distinctive destination signs that had "Astoria" and "Flushing" written with a Red Arrow ---> through the letters.
I'm not sure about free transfers being allowed between companies at QP. Can anyone else verify this? There would have been no need for a shuttle if people could simply transfer for free to the IRT at QP.
I'm sorry, you're right. The shuttles were exclusively BMT
and the IRT operated only through service.
The BU cars originally had BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT across
the letterboard. By the time they appeared on the queens
lines, which was also the start of the BMT name, that lettering
was on the way out. I've seen pictures with the steel side
and end signs saying BMT lines in Queens service.
>>> There would have been no need for a shuttle if people could simply transfer for free to the IRT at QP. <<<
The BMT shuttles came to the same platforms as the BMT trains going through the 60th Street tunnel. Therefore if you were coming from Flushing or Astoria and wanted to go through the 60th Street tunnel you would wait for a BMT train so you could make the simple cross platform transfer.
If you wanted to go through the Steinway tunnel, or on the 2nd Ave El. You would wait for an IRT train.
It is true that you could still get to wherever you wanted to go with the free transfer down the stairs, through the mezzanine, and up the other stairs, but BMT passengers going through the 60th Street tunnel preferred getting on a train that stopped at the same platform, and the BMT wanted to accommodate them.
Tom
It is true that you could still get to wherever you wanted to go with the free transfer down the stairs, through the mezzanine, and up the other stairs, but BMT passengers going through the 60th Street tunnel preferred getting on a train that stopped at the same platform, and the BMT wanted to accommodate them.
When the service started, there was no free transfer between the IRT and BMT sides at Queensboro Plaza. My father tells me stories of riding between Brooklyn (BMT) and the Bronx (IRT) and taking a detour via Queens to avoid paying an extra nickel -- and having to go a stop past Queensboro Plaza to do this.
They may have opened up a free transfer in later years, but I doubt it was before 1947 when the fare was raised to 10 cents and transfers between the divisions were established for the first time.
-- Ed Sachs
>>> When the service started, there was no free transfer between the IRT and BMT sides at Queensboro Plaza. My father tells me stories of riding between Brooklyn (BMT) and the Bronx (IRT) and taking a detour via Queens to avoid paying an extra nickel -- and having to go a stop past Queensboro Plaza to do this. <<<
Ed;
What years was your father talking about when he would travel from Brooklyn to the Bronx through Queens? Granted there may have been no free transfer when the IRT and BMT were separate entities, but after the consolidation in 1940 there were plenty of free transfer points between the BMT and IRT. The 1948 Subway map on this site shows numerous transfer points in Manhattan, so it would not be necessary to go through Queens.
BTW, the big 100% fair hike was in 1948.
Tom
What years was your father talking about when he would travel from Brooklyn to the Bronx through Queens?
Probably late 1920s, when he was a teen. My father celebrated his 90th birthday in May.
-- Ed Sachs
>>> when the fare was raised to 10 cents and transfers between the divisions were established for the first time <<<
Ed;
I always thought the free transfers came earlier, but your post caused me to check the New York Times for July 1, 1948, the date the fare went from 5 to 10 cents (I'm slow at taking out the papers). The article included a map showing the new free transfer points and the existing free transfer points. The existing free transfers were intra divisional transfers such as Grand Central on the IRT, except for the one between the IND and BMT at Franklin Ave in Brooklyn. All the inter divisional free transfers in Manhattan and the IND and Flushing line transfer at 74th Street were new. The 1948 subway map on this site is after the fare hike.
The article also mentioned crowds waiting to be the first to pay the new fare, 525 extra policemen on duty for the first day, and tearing down the barriers between the BMT and IRT stations at Times Square and removing two way turnstiles between the stations. Were any of those turnstiles saved for the transit museum?
BTW the article also mentioned two cent transfer machines inside the fare control for transfers to municipal buses (the bus fare was 7 cents) and mentioned that police would be watching to be sure passengers were not purchasing more than one transfer at a time. (Can you imagine being busted for buying an extra two cent transfer?)
What the article did not address was the fare arrangement at Queensboro Plaza. It is not shown as a free transfer point either before or after the fare increase, just both lines entering the same station, but since all the stations beyond Queensboro Plaza could be reached by either division, it would make no sense to have separate fare controls there.
Tom
What the article did not address was the fare arrangement at Queensboro Plaza. It is not shown as a free transfer point either before or after the fare increase, just both lines entering the same station, but since all the stations beyond Queensboro Plaza could be reached by either division, it would make no sense to have separate fare controls there
But the companies pre 1940 could make it as difficult as possible. IIRC several stations past QP on the Flushing line did not allow crossovers between uptown and downtown so a passenger would have to continue well past QP just for the sake of a free transfer. I definitely believe the companies had separate fare controls at QP. Did the city take down these controls upon unification???
One note - for BMT bookkeeping and statistical purposes the Astoria Line was Beebe Ave - Ditmars Blvd and the Flushing line was Rawson St - Main St. QP was reported by itself in the stats.
>>> I definitely believe the companies had separate fare controls at QP. Did the city take down these controls upon unification??? <<<
I agree that when the IRT and BMT were separate companies there were separate fare controls because each company kept its own receipts. The change to one fare control probably took place between 1940 and 1949 when the north platforms were closed. I doubt that it would have been changed immediately upon unification. Inertia would have kept the separate fair controls in place until someone saw an economic advantage to changing it. (Such as reducing the number of change booths, total number of turnstiles, and exit gates, or rest rooms inside of fare control) One would have to look at the mezzanine plans for the station to see how it was arranged with separate fare controls and what changes had to be done to have single fare control.
Change would not be a high priority since anyone going to Astoria or Flushing could use either line, and only those going to Manhattan had to be careful to choose either IRT or BMT, and both lines were well marked.
OTOH, those coming from Manhattan on the BMT and wanting to return to Manhattan on the IRT and vice versa were probably not a large group, and compared to the extra time already taken to save a nickel, the extra time to travel a few stops beyond Queensboro Plaza was negligible, so separate fare controls would not be a deterrence to them, and therefore not a reason to maintain them.
Tom
I have photos of both gate cars and MUDC's in 2nd ave. el service to Queens. More gate cars than MUDC's. IIRC a friend told me they got the MUDC's in Queens service after 6th Ave.(el) closed. Prior to that 6th Ave and 9th had them; I don't know..maybe they were on all lines but that was the story on Queens service.
>>> It was mentioned that, for a time, both the IRT and BMT ran shuttles from Ditmars Blvd. to Queensboro Plaza consisting of the same type of cars <<<
Dan;
Only the BMT ran shuttles between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria. The shuttles met with the wider BMT trains coming through the 60th Street tunnel at Queensboro Plaza.
The confusion is that the BMT was using IRT size cars. Since the stations were the size for IRT cars, the IRT was able to run through service to the rest of their routes and had no need for shuttles.
Tom
Chris;
This was posted in the wrong place
Tom
Here are the original plans for the mezzanine at Queensborough Plaza - enjoy.
See the original plans for the mezzanine at Queensborough Plaza
BMT-Lines.Com
Thanks for the mezzanine drawing of Queensboro Plaza. Now can you or anyone else confirm that the following assumptions are correct:
1. The heavy line running the length of the station in the center is a structural girder rather than a solid wall so there is really only one area designated "Passage" rather than two.
2. The areas marked "T.B." at the ends of the station are the ticket booths because at the time the station was designed they were using paper tickets rather than coins in a turnstile. Once they went to turnstiles the ticket booths became change booths.
3. The areas marked "Chopper" is where the tickets were canceled upon entry and were replaced by turnstiles once the system went to coins.
Provided those assumptions are correct the area marked passage is outside of the fare control zones, and there are clearly separate fare control zones for the north and south sides of the station.
Once consolidation occurred and the fares were all going into the same pocket, converting the station to a single fare control would be very simple. All that is required is putting a fence (probably with exit gates) between the north and south turnstiles at either end of the area marked "passage", and removing the high fences separating the passage and the two mezzanines. The work could be done in one day, without disrupting operations and might not have been reported in the newspapers.
If assumption No. 1 is wrong, and there is a wall down the center of the station, the wall would have to be removed before the other changes could be made, but removal of the wall would not have to occur at the same time as the other changes.
Tom
I finally rode the 142 today (Bombardier) and noticed three things:
1. The interior sign's blinking in and out IS as annoying as I've been told;
2. The 142 was very smooth and fast over the curve S. of E. 180th St.;
3. I spotted the 142A in E. 180th St. Shop, which means (we already knew this) that its clock has been reset, hence the nifty subject of this message.
BTW, any news on the R110A?
That was not a R142A, there are 3 sets of R142s and 1 set of R142A here. The set of 142s you saw were 6321-6330, 6311-6320 are out doing t/o training and well, 6301-6310 in use!
Trevor
If the 142 was out today, it must have been late. Of course, I'm (or anyone else is) not surprised to know this.
Well, I got to ride the shuttle today, and this is what happened.
5:46 PM, boarded at 42nd.
5:50 PM, sat outside 57th, signal didn't clear until N left the local track (?)
5:51 PM, Pull halfway into station, mid-station signal and home signal still red. Shuttle passes going the other way.
5:55 PM, Signal still not clear, people on platform punching doors / windows. C/R says "Partner, it looks like we in the station, Im'a open up." Doors open.
5:57 PM, Mid station signal clears after wrong-railing Q train crosses from our track to the Downtown Express (more on that in adjacent post). We move up to the 6 marker, and open the doors again.
6:05 PM, Home signal still red, the shuttle that passed us when we first entered 57th is heading Northbound on the Southbound track, nearly empty. They pull it in front of us and to 63rd st.
6:06 PM, Rioting ensues, people bang on cab doors, windows, anything, mass exodus from train.
6:07 PM, Home signal clears, mass exodus back to train. Proceed to 63rd w/out incident.
6:20 PM, Leaving 21st on the heels of the train that skipped us, I notice a third shuttle waiting for entrance into 21st.
And, at Roosevelt Island, the T/O pulls up to the 10 marker, gives 2 buzzes and an apology to the C/R for pulling up too far.
At Lexington, we pull up to the 8/4 marker (for some reason the 6 is between 10 and 8/4). Doors open with no complaints from C/R.
At 57th, we again pull up to the 8. After doors don't open:
T/O: Partner, what're you lookin' for?
C/R: A board.
T/O: What?
C/R: A board, we got 6 cars.
The passengers thought this was funny, it probably would have been more so had they know what 'board' he was talking about.
Rest of trip uneventful.
Gee, the radio sounded pretty quiet pertaining to the shuttle. I will even verify if six car equipment is operating over there.
The R46 in the background here is numbered 666, but the photo is dated 1997. Didn't the renumbering take place before then? What's going on here?
Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r110b/r110bext.jpg
Mark, the photo was taken by me prior to 1997. The date indicated is when Dave posted the photo on the site. You can check my database for the date #666 was re-numbered.
BTW - To jerkey mike, I appologize for posting again. I was sure you had the correct answer to the question but wanted to beat you to the punch - dimwit.
I'll change the date on the photo- do you have a rough idea when it *was* taken, prior to the 666's renumbering?
-dave
I don't mean to make extra work for you, Dave, but as long as we're talking about misidentified photos, this one has bugged me for a while:
BU 1207 @ Fresh Pond Yard.
It's mislabeled on its referring page, its JPEG name, and on the photo itself. The BMT-era convertibles were in the 1000, 1100 and 1300 series. This photo is clearly a 1300-series convertible, apparently 1307.
You make it sound like it's maliciously incorrect. I'll fix it, everywhere but in the photo border- that'll have to wait till I rescan it...
-Dave
You make it sound like it's maliciously incorrect.
Well, sorry, I didn't think it was possible to misidentify a photo maliciously, unless it's a picture of the President and a female staffer.
I mentioned this mis-ID some time ago, and since it was never changed, I got the impression that it was believed that "1207" was correct after all.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
And speaking of the 1300 BUs, they were lots of fun to ride on (especially with the panels off in summer), but they were (IMO) fairly ugly, as compared to most other gate cars. No woodwork worth mentioning, and a plain window arrangement.
I wonder how they came to be the last gate cars in operation. I can't believe that the TA much cared whether people were cool in summer or not, especially as the need to maintain the panels and curtains added extra maintenance. Maybe the big "I-beams" necessitated by the convertible feature made them structurally sounder in the TA's view.
Personally I disagree on the ugly, will admit they weren't the best looking. My wild guess is they were the only set of el cars left that were around in sufficient numbers to service the Myrtle Ave. line, likewise the newest. The 1200's with their more logical window arrangements would have been the likely choice but a goodly number of them were taken up for conversion to Q cars and a couple for C's.Age-wise only a year or two older than 1300's. The newest, the 1400's (1907) almost identical to 1200's, were all converted to C or Q types. But none of us who loved the old stuff could look a gift horse in the mouth; we were lucky to have such trains running as late as they did. My guess would be if they used 1200's instead they'd have needed 2 types of cars to provide the service.
Sorry, perhaps it never came up to my attention. If you just posted it here on SubTalk I may not have noticed it. I no longer attempt to read every single post.. By malicious I simply meant that the tone of your post as I read it made it sound like you thought it was incorrectly labeled on purpose or that "I should have known better, it's obvious that the BMT cars are series 1000, 1100, 1300, etc.."
-Dave
I was just pedantically reinforcing the point that it could not have been a 1200-series car, in case there was any doubt. This comes from the slow realization of my advancing age that a majority of railfans alive today have never seen a gate car in service, and might not readily recall what the different car series were like.
Maybe I'm remembering some of my old researches at the New-York Historical Society 30-plus years ago. I did so much work in the area of early 20-century Brooklyn (from various sources) that I could readily identify many photos I had never seen before. One day I came upon a couple of photos in their collection that were badly mis-identified. (IIRC they were c.1915 views on the LIRR R-O-W in the vicinity of the Canarsie Line convergence).
When I brought it to the curator's attention he just refused my ID, even though I was a regular and had been a Society member for several years--it was like: "I'm a curator and you're a stupid kid--why should I listen to you." Finally, they added my identification with a BIG question mark after it.
Since then I've tried to develop multiple means of historical recognition, as in the logic shown in that Rockaway Park photo, but no harm intended.
Conversely, since I haven't ridden the subway for fun in decades, there are many subtleties of newer equipment that 90% of Subtalkers might know off the bat that I haven't a clue of.
>>> The BMT-era convertibles were in the 1000, 1100 and 1300 series. This photo is clearly a 1300-series convertible, apparently 1307. <<<
Paul;
I'll gladly defer to your knowledge of the various BMT series, but here is a photo of a car which apparently has the number "1251" doing a superb imitation of a convertible. When magnified, the second digit looks even more like a "2".
Tom
Tom,
Sometime things are not as they seem to be. The car in question is 1351 even though the picture would make it look like 1251.
Did you try to enlarge the number on the other end of the car?
The real 1251 became Q car 1619B way back in 1939!
Karl
As Karl B remarked, for sure that looks like a well-formed "2", but it isn't 1251 or any other 1200 series car. Human error is possible.
Dave, it's no biggy to me. Late 92 or early 93 is the best I can do to date the photo. R-110B was making its test runs around the system and R-46s had not yet been renumbered. They were done 1993-94 as I remember.
I went to check out your photograph of car #666. A few months back I had someone on my train with the same name spelling as on your picture. Without giving too much detail, I had a guard light that wouldn't clear. You and the TSS got into it over taking the train out of service. Was that 'the Train Dude' from Subtalk?
Subggirl, were you the one with her head out of the cab window while smoking 3 cigarettes? If so then it was me. By the way - if you find your desk epoxied closed in the morning, subgirl, it's only to show that I can take a joke too.
That explains it, thank you for clearing that up!
Mark
what is your database?
My database is a list of R-44 & R-46 cars with original numbers, new numbers, mates, dates of overhaul and dates of renumbering. It resides somewhere in the Subway Car Roster pages (last time I looked).
Look here: R44 Renumbering
and here: R46 Renumbering
Why was the renumbering done?
08/14/2000
[Why was the renumbering done? ]
I heard that the TA wanted only 4 digit car numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought it was the linking?
08/15/2000
[I thought it was the linking? ]
Maybe both !
Bill "Newkirk"
666 - Mark of the Devil. A conincidence?
I can hear Flip Wilson/Geraldine Jones right now: the devil made me do it!
The trains that formerly spent the day east of 21st are now taking their midday nap behind the wall at 63rd, and on the approach from 6th ave. That means shuttle service gets screwed up while they wrong-rail the trains from the Northbound approach / Lower Level of Lex to 57th and 7th, where they go in service. The one on the southbound approach only wrong rails for a few seconds to be pulled into 63rd/lex, and the one on the upper level of Lex has no problem with traffic flow. I saw 2 of these trains this afternoon at 42nd and 57th.
<>
But its gotta get in there in the am, right?
Yep, I suspected at first it comes up 6th ave and switches over to the stub, but that switch (both levels) looks like it hasn't seen use in ages. They must, therefore, be using the Broadway line in the morning as well.
Well with the 5th Aniversary behind us I thought it was time to trot out the old Subtalk awards again. My earlier attempt to host these awards was thawrted by a lack of Subtalker input. Not to be deterred I spent several months observing the MB inorder to complete the awards myself. Well here we are and I have decided on most of the categories. The decision is final and is not up for debate. I have tried to be fair and impartial in making my choices. However I still have many gaps in my information and I need some more input for the following categories:
Best Thread
Best SubTalker in Leading Role
Best Subtalker in Supporting role
Worst transit official
Worst elected official
Best Subway Supporter
Best SubTalker in the Field
Best Contributed Photos
Best Contributed Articles
Most Prolific debator
Worst Speller
Lifetime Award, SubTalker active since day 1
Funniest Single Post
Best Forigen Transit System
Best Station (NYC)
Best Station (other)
Please include a short "why" with each nomination.
In a few days I'll anounce the winners and then we'll do it again in 365 days, maybe with some better organization.
PS: To show that I am fair Train Dude will be recieving an award solely because from the evidence I feel that he deserves it. I wonder if he will come back to collect his statuette?
PPS: Train Dude, before you refuse this award because you hate me realize that you were nominated by more than one non-me person for it.
Mike;
How about a write in for the stupidest most time wasting post. This one of yours surely takes the grand prize.
Tom
I would think that some of my other posts were more time wasting than this. People actually wrote in with nominations so I have to get something done.
WWASSSUUPP!!!! I finally rode my 1st R-142 the other day at Times Square. 6302 at about 3:15 at Times Square on the 2. This is a state-of-the-art subway car. The LCD display telling you the next stop, time, & destination, plus the computerized announcement. No offense to redbird fans, but these cars make the redbirds look like '72 Ford Pintos IMHO. Although I still like the World's Fair R-36's running on the 7. I can't wait till these cars are in full service.
As far as I can remember all the conflict on this MB has arrissen from people objecting to what other post because they feel that those posts are boring or stupid. Well this post is a public service to help eliminate this conflitc in the future. I feel qualified to comment on this because I have learned to overcome boring and stupid posts. First I have a confession to make. I feel that most of the posts on this MB are boring and/or stupid. R62 this, R44 that, R9 this, F train that, Manny B this R110B that. It goes on and on and because I don't live in NYC I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT ANY OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! It dosen't affect me and I couldn't care less. I'm sure your posts would apeal to someone who had basic knowledge of the MTA, but this is everything I know about NYC subway cars:
1) Something called a Redbird is getting old, dragging people and rusting into dust.
2) The R142 sucks for some reason.
3) R "Slant" 40's look wierd.
4) An R33 Single is worse than hell.
5) An R9 has a part called a motorman's cab.
6) The Franklin Shuttle can take you anywhere.
7) Most NYC subway trains look the same.
8) A Triplex has 3 of something. I can't remember if its boggies or cars.
Because of my NYC Subway handicap 80% of the posts seem stupid or boring to me. However I do not complain or yell at people to stop posting. I read what I do like (funny posts or posts that pertain to Philly or Commuter Rail) or I just post an excessive amount of my own threads so that I know that the next day there will be something interesting waiting for me. So now you know how to avoid conflict on SubTalk and now you know why I post so much.
PS: If you want to know how to defeat me and my rampent posting try asking me a question I know the answer to. A simple question like "How does cab signaling work" will set me off writing an hour long reply and by the time I'm done I'll have no time left for my regular material.
Read the name of this message board. Look for boards for stand-up comedy and fiction. Take your comedy and fiction there. Keep your boring train/transit/signalling posts here.
Boring Old Fart Bob
>>> I feel qualified to comment on this because I have learned to overcome boring and stupid posts. First I have a confession to make. I feel that most of the posts on this MB are boring and/or stupid. R62 this, R44 that, R9 this, F train that, Manny B this R110B that. It goes on and on and because I don't live in NYC I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT ANY OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! It dosen't affect me and I couldn't care less ... Because of my NYC Subway handicap 80% of the posts seem stupid or boring to me. However I do not complain or yell at people to stop posting. I read what I do like (funny posts or posts that pertain to Philly or Commuter Rail) or I just post an excessive amount of my own threads so that I know that the next day there will be something interesting waiting for me <<<
Mike;
Once again you show your complete disrespect for this board and the those that have an interest in the NY subways. You clutter up the board with your mindless drivel that is only tangentially on point. If you find most of the posts boring and you couldn't care less about them, look elsewhere on the web for your entertainment. I am sure there are chat rooms all over that would love to have your input.
If the only posts that are interesting to you are about Philly or Commuter Rail, just respond to those topics or post something interesting about those topics. Your excessive off topic posts are an imposition on those who want to use the board for what it was intended.
Tom
P.S. How does cab signaling work??
Hey, almost all of my posts are usually on topic questions about the subway or subway observations I make on my way home. They just happen to deal with the philly system ot the system in general. The name of the board is subtalk, not NYCSubTalk or SeriousSubTalk. My point it if you don't like a certain type of subway post, post one you do like instead of complaining about it.
If you have no idea what we are talking about in reference to NYC subways, find posts 'boring', don't know an R44 from an R62, and 'couldn't care less' about the discussion of the subway here, then I have just one question to ask you:
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE?!?!?
This is a site about the NYC Subway. This message board mostly pertains to the NYC Subway, but occasionally other stuff (like Nathans hot dogs and the London Tubes) creeps in, and is usually welcomed, because it expands our horizons. I know now what an 'Almond Joy' is when it pertains to Philadelphia. Maybe you should explore the rest of the site for a month or so, learn what you can about the NYC subway, then come back. We'll see if you learned anything.
-Hank
I personally resent that a valuable teacher was driven away from this board by a simpsons spouting clown who doesn't have a clue about the primary subject of this board and worse, doesn't want to learn.
I only read a little bit of your post, then got borred !
Why do you insist on wasting your & our time posting this kind of stuff ? Is it the I have to start 3 treads a day thing ... why ?
We've heard from folks who went with you to Philly what a great guy you are ... you sure don't prove it by this kind of stuff !
Maybe you should lurk for a while and reflect on what you see ?
And please get off this Train Dude thing of yours or you'll find that we have all "kill filed" you. Wouldn't that be something, 3 new threads a day and nobody responds !
Mr t__:^)
Sorry i cannot give a direct link with this 1994 macintosh centris 650
Please enter in your location the following...
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
If this does not work e mail me & tell me what happened !
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I do think im finally beginning to get started with posting my transit photography first on yahoo photos then hopefully on my own railfan website !!
Again thank you very much help yourself to the free TEST transit pics enjoy & tell me what you think
....
Interesting shots, Salaam - nice to see "historic" views of the system in its early days. The resolution isn't as crisp as I'd like it when the pics are full size; since I'm not sure why I can't say if that could be cured by a higher-density scan or not (if the original photo is printed on matte or textured paper then there's nothing you can do). Keep posting them!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they were shot with 3M 400 speed STORE BRAND film the operator allowed me to shoot inside the cab etc..
This was done before the days of the internet & i scanned them from an epson 25oo scanner copier into the TWAIN system with a transperency adaptor for negative positive clear film adaptor on the top & a old imac3
now if I could afford those high priced negative scanners I am sure the resolution would be a lot higher !!& the focus as well
also when you shoot in the dark holding cameras still can be a challenge !!Today i will add many more shots so keep watching & i thank you !! also visit my yahoo club MASS TRANSIT COMMENTARY & post there !! ( all of my pics shot with point & shoot cameras if you would like i could send you an invitation thru your e mail...
Not bad, Salaam, not bad at all...
Oh, posting a link has nothing to do with your computer. You just need to type this exactly: <a href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications"> in your message text, and a </a> after the text you want to create a link with. It will look like this when previewed (this being the word I made into the link). Don't forget to preview to make sure you get it right. And of course, you can now create any link you'd like, simply by substituting the 'http' part.
-Hank
Salaam ... they look good to me. It's a good way to start.
That interior red line picture ... is it an optical illusion or is the red line car not as wide as I thought? It almost seems, well, as narrow as an IRT car!
--Mark
I did once made the mistake of mislabeling it as a blue & green line car in which most of the time has blue interior seats except for the newer light rail prototypes some are running on the blue-green lines
it does seem to me that the blue line cars are a bit more narrow!!
The red line subway to nowhere does seem to be irt like but not as big and wide as the nyc bmt-ind & not as large as marta in atlanta
Oh well i am confused on this stuff but I will pay attention much more the next time because i intend to go station to station witn photos a microcasette recorder to record what each station on the blue green & red lines has to offer etc so wish me lick on this one !
I sent webmaster dave 4 hd ibm floppy discs on all of my pictures aprox 40 images to each disc looks much better than when my imac G3 was broke!!( the images scanned even with the TWAIN system looked horrible !! These new images look much better like the ones i posted on yahoo photos.
I have and are posting new photos on that site all of the time so check back and thank you for your comments much appreciated !!
href="http://photos.com/asiaticcommunications">Salaam's photos
hope this works folks good luck & thank you for that nice man who E mailed me with how to post this ...
I looked at your source code.
You don't have to make the font blue, it does it automatically.
And you shouldn't hit the ENTER key while typing the code for the link.
tomorrow i will try again until i make it ( thanks )...
sorry but i wanted to see if this will work ....
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">salaam"s
photos
maybe this link will work
You should preview your stuff.
The same carriage return problem is here.
i am going to give this another try lets see what happens !!
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">salaam'sphotos
here it goes !
Same problems over and over again.
Did you preview the message?
i did then i said ""damn it it did not work ""!!!
( oh well try again sometime later ) thanks...
last one failed because i did not hit post before i could hit clear !
thank you for you understanding .....
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">Salaam's
photos
testing # 2
How about typing this, exactly as you see it:
<a href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications">salaam's photos</a>
Salaam –
See the message posted by Henry R32 #3730 at 18:05:34.
Either do what he said, or highlight what he said to type, copy it, and paste it onto your message. When you finish writing your message, click on “Preview Message Before Posting”. This will show you whether the link will work without putting up another unsuccessful post.
Good luck.
Bob
WOW!!! Good shots. The only suggestion I would make is to expand the captions for the thumbnails and the full shots, as that will make it very clear to persons viewing them what they are viewing.
What you have done on Yahoo! is a good first step.
Hey Guys,
I was wondering if anyone had pictures of the northbound Myrtle Ave station just north of Dekalb Ave., while it was in service? How about the southbound platform?
Regards,
JDL
I saw a #6 train of R-142s the other day. When will these cars
start replacing the redbirds? Which ones will go first? What will
happen once the R-142s hit the road? I know that the R-142s will
bump the R-33s from the #2 to the #5, so the R-26s and R-28s will be
scrapped first. What will happen when the R-142s enter the #6? What
will happen to the R-29s, R-33s, R-36s and the R-62As? Will the R-29s,
R-33s and R-36s be scrapped?
From what I heard, the R62s from the 6 and other lines will be moved to the 7.
By the way, when are we getting those R62s on the 7? I could have sworn I saw a stainless stell car passing my redbird at Vernon-Jackson yesterday! I only got a quick glimpse.
:) Andrew
It might have been one of the EP-xxx work motors (R-127 or R-134). They look like R62s without windows and have one center door.
wayne
It was. We were out there last night.
After the 30 Day test is complete then more R142'S will hit the road and Redbirds will be taken off the road. Like 10 Cars of 142'S go in and 10 Cars of R26'S go out or something like that. I think the R26/28'S will be the first to leave since there the oldest cars. I have heard that they may be Redbirds on standbye. This is the order on who gets what first. The No.2+6 Lines will be first to get the delivery and the No.5 Line will be last.
Also this is what I know as of now of Future Line Assignments
Line 1/9- R62A's
Line 2 - R142
Line 3 - Unknown
Line 4 - R62'S + R142
Line 5 - R142
Line 6 - R142A
Line 7 - R62A
This is subject to Change
The 3 Line will give some singles over to the 7 Line. The 3 Line will then get some R62As from the 6 Line. Not all the R62As from Westchester will go to Corona. Once again, subject to change.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
However, the R-142/142A order is 1,080 cars. That leaves something like 350 Redbirds to be replaced by a future order. (Presumably these would mostly be Worlds Fair cars.) Where will these be running for the next two to three years?
Supposedly, the Redbirds would be used for rush hour add-on service, though they would mean spreading them out among at least two or three yards so they could be put and and taken out of service on regular schedule for several different lines at a time.
Again this is speculation, but since there are not enough R62A's (260) on the 6 to cover it entirely now, I believe all of them will go to the 7. Another line will have to give up R62A's to fully cover the 7 line at today's service headways (385 cars according to a car assignment post I saw here a while back). That's where the 3 line comes in. Its cars are needed to make the 11th car on 7 trains. But more are needed to fully cover the 7 line's fleet.
So R62A's can not go from the 6 to the 3 because all of them are needed for the 7. What we might see are R36 sets going from the 7 to the 3. They would have to be stored at Livonia yard in Brooklyn though due to lack of space at Lenox Yard. That or the 3 will get R142s if there are enough of them.
The Evil DRPA continues to suck the work-a-day commuter dry with yet another fare hike. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse PATCO is raising its fares from "reasonable" to "outrageous". They also hinted that next year the fares will go up to "freaking insane" Here's what those jerks have done:
Philly and Camden $1 (+.15)
All NJ $1.10 (+.10)
Ferry Ave $1.60 (+.20)
Coll, WestM Hdfld $1.85 (+.25)
WoodC Ash Lind $2.10 (+.25)
Last year about this time the fares went up the same amount from cheap to reasonable. Not to mention that PATCO raised its parking rate from .25 or free to $1. It is now probably cheaper to drive into Centre City than it in to take PATCO. You gotta love the old "lets make rail transit popular by putting it out of everyone's price range". PATCO says that it needs to upgrade and fix stuff but I do't buy it. Their everlasting Budd cars should last another 40 years and the track etc. looks fine. Both PATH and SEPTA have kept their fares low and SEPTA just got a new fleet of M4 subway cars. The DRPA is transfering funds from PATCO and the bridges to build waste of time pork projects in Camden like a stadium and a tramway. If anything PATCO should bride tolls to help subsudize transit riders. Not to mention that that boondoggle Camden-Trenton light railis is eating into any state funds PATCO might have gotten. The DRPA is running amok and nobody seems able to stop it. I would rather ride in snot filled trains with broken windows and crumbling stations than face another 2 fare hikes!
So let's see, a 17-mile long commuter train line that runs every ten minutes costs a bit more than a ride with transfer on SEPTA and a LOT less than most commuter lines in Phila. and other cities. I don't like it either, especially if the whole family is going, but you have to admit that for what you get, for the average working person, it is not that expensive, considering that most people are avoiding the $2 toll and the $8 parking expense. When I was 14, I was unhappy at one time when the NYC subway fare was raised to 20 cents, but that didn't make the NYCTA the most evil people in the world, and most working people could afford the extra nickel.
If the PATCO train were, as you say you prefer, disgusting and filled with gross stuff and broken windows, most customers would disappear and nothing would keep it going then. It may be that they don't really need to raise the fare, but it doesn't warrant such anger.
1) PATCO is only 14 miles long.
2) It is a subway, not a commuter railroad.
3) PATCO does not offer discount rate weekly or monthly tickets. (I wouldn't complain if they did)
4) Bridge toll is $3 (thank you again DRPA)
5) Some bussinesses offer free parking (I think).
6) PATCO should be offered as the clearly better choice for commuters. It costs the same to run a 3/4 filled train as it does to run a full train. If they offered cheap fares and near free parking they would fill those trains and make more $ on volume. Everyone would win. Cheap fares, more money, less cars on the road. PATCO is using monopoly style tactics to squeeze every cent out of the no-choice riders and then catching everyone else with hi bridge tolls.
PATCo and the DRPA could use its power so help improve commuting in the area, but they don't. They could offer a $2 toll to help lure ppl onto the under-utilized Betsy Ross Br. but they don't. 1.1 years ago a round trip to the Sports Complex with parking cost $4.65 from haddonfield. today it costs $6.00 and in 20 days it will be $6.50. What a way to atract riders.
PATCO user's only recourse is to hoard 10 trip tickets.
"Hello, I'd lile 32 10 trip tickets please?"
"I'm sorry, but the man in front of you just bought out our entire supply."
Some comments:
-----
2) It is a subway, not a commuter railroad.
PATCO is a hybrid or sorts - it has typical subway-type equipment (and may be even station spacing), but clearly serves a "commuter railroad" function. How about peak/off-peak fares?
-----
3) PATCO does not offer discount-rate weekly or monthly tickets.
Weekly and Monthly passes are always nice. They also a revenue-enhancer - people buy their weekly/monthly passes in advance, so the agency has prior use of their money.
-----
6) PATCO should be offered as a clearly better choice for commuters. It costs the same to run a 3/4 filled train as it does to run a full train. If they offered cheap fares and nearly free parking, they would fill those trains and make more $ on volume.
That point is valid, although PATCO probably isn't looking to actually make money (most transit agencies run at a loss, and must be subsidized). As a matter of both public policy and congestion management, it's sensible to enhance the attractiveness of non-auto modes in order to minimize the number of vehicles in Center City (while still serving everybody who must travel there) as well as to clear space on the roads for those who truly need to use them.
[PATCO is a hybrid or sorts - it has typical subway-type equipment (and may be even station spacing), but clearly serves a "commuter railroad" function. How about peak/off-peak fares?]
The Budd-built cars are actually "hybrid of sorts", related to commuter rail cars, as they were built with Pioneer 3 trucks and designed to achieve a top speed of 90 mph and run at 75, although excessive motor wear early on reduced operating speed to 65.
With SRO rush hour trains, bargain pricing is inappropriate. Peak/off-peak fares would be an excellent idea if it could be worked into PATCO's fare system.
DRPA raised the tolls on all the bridges: $3.00 ($2.70 with E-Z Pass). This is supposed to be for bridge repairs, etc. So far they have added a multi-million dollar decroative lighting system. Ooohh. Ahhh.
You see, that's why I'm so mad. The DRPA is spending our bridge and train money on lights and trams and baseball stadiums and parks along Adirimal Willson Blvd.
To be fair; it is better than giving themselves a big raise. They are trying to improve the area around them. Though I do agree in principal about how they spend money, at least they are doing SOMETHING. Noticeable change is taking place, and possibly for the better. Albeit, spray-painted brick designs seem silly; and we probably don't need another stadium. The tram sounds neat, but... I am not sure it will be used (The whole Penn's Landing thing needs to happen first). They are repainting the bridge - which is needed, and movable dividers to separate traffic is a "duh" issue to me. The lights to enhance the bridge; but they did not have to do that first.
Those movable dividers look ugly. They make the bridge look like a construction zone. The light system leaves the beautyful design of the bridge untouched. Besides if people don't like traffic on the bridge they should take the train. PATCO should strive to force people off the road and onto boats and trains.
Who said anything about traffic on the bridge? I was referring to the Patented Jersey Dividers that will improve bridge safety. They may not be the prettiest thing, but they are a good thing. Trains, and to a further extent; unfortunately do not go where a lot of people need to go.
In sum... let's agree to disagree, and save a number of posts that will just go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...
Actually the flexible barriers were invented for* and first used on the PA turnpike (or so my dad says). I have seen them used on the Penna Tpk for years and years and old ones at that. We must also weight the 2 types of accidents that will result. With the barriers you get a cattle chute with chain recation accidents that are confined to a small space. These accidents will shut down the whole bridge side instead of just a lane or 2. W/o the barriers you run the risk of cars crossing the median lane and head-oning someone. However the bridge speed is low in the 40-50 mph range. I'm still sad that they removed the unused eastbound toll boths. Nothing made me happier than getting to drive through a toll booth w/o paying. It also cut down of speeders.
I don't know about the Penna Turnpike inventing the movable barriers, but I do know that they will help the current traffic situation, especially on the Ben where there have been some major head-on accidents. The big problem is driver carelessness - there is usually at least one lane left 'empty' between directions of traffic, but we live in a time when many drivers do not follow signs, lane signals, etc. I've even seen more u-turns on the bridge than I'd like to have witnessed (and I'm NOT a frequent user!).
If you want to see the real source of the problem, look at who DRPA is. It's a collection of elected officials from both sides of the Delaware. Some of our most notorious politicos are represented on the Board. And look at who's directing all this money to other projects. Hmmm...
The tram, in my opinion, is an amusement park ride and a waste of time as a transportation facility. By the same token, the sprucing up of the Admiral Wilson, while it looks nice, should fall to the City of Camden. Since Camden is run by a reputed drug kingpin, we won't expect much. But also keep in mind that DRPA is helping to fund the Camden-Trenton light rail...
Which is also a waste of money. They should be building a Camden-Glassboro or Camden-Moorestown line, but some state politicion blocked and they elected for a compromise system. I assume that there is some logic in "if you can't build a transit system that will help people, spend the money on one that won't".
Bob- Did you see PATCO's new station maps-- they show the SNJLRT (minus stations)
Bridge toll payers protested when their tolls subsidized construction of PATCO.
PATCO is embarking on a major roadbed/track rehab.
PATCO runs its business in a very frugal cost-effective manner.
25 cents to park in the closest lots was too cheap (NJT Hamilton charges $3 and people pay it without bitching).
DRPA squanders money big time.
Uh-huh. Right. So now you have to pay a rate that is closer to the cost of your ride, and subsidize your own trackwork. Looks aren't everything, and 40-year-old cars likely will not last another 10.
You're just AFWDSTBP.
-Hank
The way PATCO shop employees and management keep after their 32 year old cars built by Budd, they are expected to last at least another 30 years.
How dare you doubt the power of Budd! Nothing kills stainless steel. Not even railfan foam. BTW stop calling me acronyms, I can't tell if I should feel insulted.
I wouldn't complain about PATCO. Although I'm only a very occasional rider, it's still a great convenience to me when I need it and it's still the best transit bargain in these parts.
Let's examine the facts.
I'll trade you any day my ride on a SEPTA 'express' bus (at $1.60 each way, but I use tokens so it's only $1.15). There's no snot on the new buses, YET, but now that the GOP's gone, let's see how clean they stay.
Compare PATCO fares to SEPTA Regional Rail. If I take the train in my commute, it's a $3.25 ride each way. This is for an 8-mile one-way trip. On PATCO I could do much better - I could ride round trip to Haddonfield (about the same mileage). And the only way I can get to the nearest RR station is on my own, since SEPTA doesn't connect me to it (and if it did, I'd only be able to make it worthwhile with a TrailPass, not cheap).
PATCO is more than driving/parking? Have you seen Center City parking rates lately? The cheapest lots in town are now charging $7-$8 for the 'early bird' all day. Add $3 bridge toll and it still doesn't compare, even with the SEPTA transfer (and who is subsidizing that 'cheap' SEPTA round trip - methinks it's more from the Pennsylvania side of the river than the Jersey side - and why is SEPTA helping Jersey residents with lower fares at the expense of its Penna customers?).
Drivers complain that bridge tolls are used for PATCO. This is true. It should be. It isn't the other way around. Up until about 10 years ago, PATCO didn't get any federal assistance and I don't think it gets any transit money directly from Penna or NJ. As far as I know it doesn't even get any state matching funds for its FTA grants.
PATCO is an aging system. It is hard to believe that it's over 30 years old. The cars need to be replaced in the next 5-10 years, despite their high levels of maintenance, and track is wearing out. The NJ stations are starting to show wear. It isn't unreasonable to expect fares to pay for this.
I've heard lots of screaming and bitching about PATCO's fare hikes. It's a fact of life. PATCO didn't touch the fare structure for 16 years and now everyone's crying that the fares went up. The last time PATCO hiked its fares, 1983, SEPTA fares were 75 cents. Today the base fare is $1.60. I'm not thrilled with paying it, especially for the level of service I receive, but it's the fare. I can take it or leave it if I think I can do better.
I do agree that PATCO could have a multi-trip discount and still am puzzled that it doesn't have this. I think one could argue that fares should be higher in the peak, since that's when demand is greatest, and I would support that as opposed to an off-peak fare. I also believe that a simpler bus-train combination fare needs to be provided, and this would put more people on the trains.
On the occasion that I have to use PATCO, it's usually in the peak hours. I've always seen standing loads on the trains I've used. I have counterparts who use it daily and they say this is usually the case. The only complaint I hear is the reduction of express trains, but this has resulted in more service to more riders.
How can PATCO get more riders? This is difficult. With the change in the Phila-area economy to services from manufacturing, there are more auto-dependent workers (salespeople, etc) who will never be attracted to transit. I have met very few people who work in Center City and have free parking as a perk, especially as parking becomes a more scarce commodity. I think the answer is in multi-trip tickets and better NJ bus transfers. PATCO can control the former but has little to do to get the latter without NJ Transit's help.
I took out my hand calculator last nite and went to work to compare SEPTA regional rail to PATCO. Peak one way fares are far higher so I went to a zone 2 (PATCo legnth) monthly pass. Assuming 44 rides a month the cost per ride would be $2.09 or just about the new cost of a PATCO ticket. However a monthly pass will also cover all transfers to other SEPTA lines once in the city and you get to ride in big regional rail limos with 3-2 seating. SEPTA also offers things like the family fare on weekends as well as some other discounts. Right now the current fare rate (1.60 or 1.85) is reasonable because that fare never changes and PATCO offers no discounts what-so-ever.
Gee, from $1.60 to $1.85 in ten years, in my opinion, it's very reasonable. If anything, PATCO needs new cars to AUGMENT the fleet now, just as it did 20 years ago when the first Vickers arrived. If anything, those Budds are built to last, and Vickers borrowed the design. The fleet just needs a new interior (ala SEPTA Silverliner IV), the cam controller should be replaced with chopper control, and rebuild the DC motors to be brushless (yes, they do make brushless DC motors). They would still have a state of the art car and they would save money too. I think it's a good idea.
No, it went from 1.40 to 1.85 in just over 1 year and they will probably boost it again next year.
Last year when they approved the rate hikes it was out in the open - there would be two increases. Therfore, at least right now, they probably won't increase the fares next year.
The little phamphlet they handed out said there were 3 hikes planned, the first being last year.
Well that is news to me; I heard it was two. I apologize for that. However, they did go through a process to arrive at that; and it was not a "sudden today we raised our tolls" move.
In New York State the Thruway Authority agreed quietly on a major toll hike... without holding meetings first. That is sneaky. I know for a fact that DRPA held no less than three meetings about the proposed fare hikes.
Well the problem is that nobody can stop them. The Port Authority is a bi-state agency and local politicions can't tell them to keep fares down. If SEPTA tried to raise fares you have thousands of people calling their state rep and the state reps will stop SETPA. The DRPA is independant of any one state's control. NJ and PA would have to work together to stop the DRPA and we all know that will never happen.
PATCO has not hads its fares increased since sometime back in the early 1980's prior to last year.
Can you say: "inflation"? Good!
PATCO is still a great bargain. Would that more transit lines were so "expensive."
Andrew Byler
Can we stop acting like children and refrain from personal attacks? Isn't this a site where we exchange ideas, or is this the WWF? Come on already and get your acts together. You need to respect each other's opinions and learn to compromise. The you're an assh**e bit just adds fuel to the fire. Has anyone heard of the killfile here? Use it! It's available.
-Stef
Yes, captain!
"Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most amusing!"
-Paraphase Lt. Cmdr. Data
-Hank
I've noticed green locomotives in the Sunnyside Yard, among the new 2-level passenger cars. What's up with that?
The New York and Atlantic Railway is the company responsible for freigh operations on the LIRR. There are some pics from a tour I took with them at http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/nycrrs/
-Hank
Are they using ex-LIRR locos?
"Are they using ex-LIRR locos?"
Yes.
Be sure to check out this week's edition of the _Village Voice_. The lead article is a feature on subway surfing, with a somewhat if not entirely sympathetic portrayal of several practitioners. Stan Fischler is quoted as saying it "defies credulity." Dunno if the article will encourage more people to take up the "sport" - it's pretty clear on the dangers involved - but that wouldn't be such a bad thing. I understand that the list of candidates for this year's Darwin Awards is sorta thin.
I wonder how many of those punks, if asked, would know the meaning of the words "close clearance"?
I bet they never heard of Darwin either?
I have a solution to prevent subway surfing, i.e. use overhead wires to transmit the electricity instead of the third rail. No one will climb onto the top if we use overhead wire. By the way, how and where the surfer climb onto the top?
http://www.queenstribune.com/news/index.html#deadline2
The artist formerly known as "Broadway Jorge"
As a very frequent user of this station, when connecting to/from the Q-33 to LGA, I like the plan. Unfortunately, it won't do anything to help the incredibly congested Roosevelt Avenue itself, nor the numbered streets which are riddled with double-parked cars so that buses can't get through.
And what's to become of the OTB "-;
Too bad they can't also expand the Roosevelt Ave # 7 structure so as to make the stop an expess instead of a local stop.
They COULD force the express track to join the local tracks by using "Y" switches at either end of the station but I don't think they'll do this - it will cause bottlenecks. The elevated station was opened in 1917 or so; the subway station opened in 1935 or 1936.
I'm curious as to what they're going to do down at platform level. That's a pretty dismal station down there, despite the flourescent light.
wayne
Wayne. I have not seen any plans, but anytime they do a major renovation, they replace lighting. This station is a major station with major renovation. I expect the plans to include new edge lighting plus the now standard transverse lighting. This station I expect to have twin tube transverse lighting. The renovation will include elevators to all platforms (including the 7) and full renovations to all platforms.
Jorge;
The cite led to an article about proposed legislation regarding violence against women. Do you have a better one?
Tom
They update their things after a day (like the New York Times).
I still had the original in my Cache (e-mail me if you want pics):
Queens subway riders will be able to breathe a fresh sigh of relief and enjoy the style of Jackson Heights thanks to a plan that will renovate and revive the heavily-trafficked 74th and Roosevelt subway station and turn what has long been a transferring trouble spot for trash into a state of the art beauty.
[PIC]
A close-up of what the 74th St. and Roosevelt Ave. could look like after a facelift.
The plan, proposed and followed through on by Assemblyman Ivan Lafayette, will be completed by 2003 and will give new life to the transfer stop which connects the #7 train with the R, G, E, F lines. According to the Queens County Overall Economic Development Corporation, the station was the second busiest in Queens in 1999, serving an average of 47,635 riders on weekdays and 43,294 on the weekends.
The station is currently housed in the Victor Moore Arcade, and the futuristic-looking new vision for the Arcade grew from the need to construct elevators that would assist in handicap access. Lafayette urged that rather than just meeting the handicap requirement for the station, a station that would better serve all riders be invested in.
"I said we should spend it wisely and as a result the MTA and the city will make a completely new building," said Lafayette. He also lobbied, fought, tended and watched over the project to collect the added funding needed for the project which, it is now estimated, will have a total price tag of $117 million.
[PIC]
An artist’s rendering of the proposed renovations at the 74th St. and Roosevelt Ave. subway station.
In addition to the new handicap access, the station will be designed to better handle the flow of people and buses during rush hour and it will also offer extra terminal spaces for buses that will be large enough for the new, natural gas buses. "The terminals will be bigger, so people will not be jammed and packed together during peak hours," said LaFayette.
The plan also calls for six new elevators which will transfer from street level to the subway terminal and vice versa. New stores will be added to the station, as well some see-through glass bricking that will provide higher security.
Construction is expected to begin in Spring 2001 and will cause lane closures on streets surrounding the area, but the station will remain in service. "More trains will mean people will get where they have to go faster," said LaFayette, "It will offer the public more service and accomodate the handicapped, which is important."
Maybe it's the August heat. Not only has a member of SubTalk taken his marbles and gone home, a professional member of another newsgroup I follow (rec.collecting.coins) has suddenly angrily withdrawn, and in even more bitter terms. The former gentleman only today broke his silence to provide a bit of useful info, but couldn't resist a snipe in the process.
Which got me thinking. The barely veiled subtext of the argument in Subtalk is the question "What is Subtalk?" The only one who really is in a position to say so is Dave, and as I write this I see only two general caveats: "Avoid Flamage" and "No general tourism questions." If he wished, Dave could post a FAQ or "Charter" every month or so to make this clearer. This is the way many newsgroups do it.
Failing that, my own rarely humble opinion is that while I think people should keep rampant OT-ing down, I don't believe everyone should have to "walk on eggs" to please one or another particular poster.
However, I think this all depends on a general view of "What is SUBTALK most similar to?" I offer the following suggestions, in all seriousness.
A. Technical Knowledge Base.
B. The Electric Railway Journal.
C. BRT Monthly.
D. A community bulletin board.
E. National Lampoon.
E. Popeye.
To explain briefly:
A. A place for serious questions and technical answers. Howto. Bugs. Problems. Documentation. If you want to get lighthearted, get tickets to the circus.
B. Sobersided industry journal. Good technical articles. What's happening in the industry. An occasional human interest piece.
C. Employee publication. Some history. Lots of current events. "Busman's Holiday" articles of interest. News of important to the community. Talking about how much the kids liked the employee picnic. The great joke M/M Burns played on C/R Turner.
D. Anything goes, just so it doesn't get beyond a PG-13 rating. News, announcements, articles clipped from the paper. Aunt Maude's rugallah recipe.
E. "R-143? We don't need no steenking R-143."
F. "I yam what I yam, and that all what I yam."
If I haven't made it obvious, I lean toward "C", but if I thought it would give people in "C" license to make war on people in the other letters (or v.v.) I would prefer "E".
[hich got me thinking. The barely veiled subtext of the argument in Subtalk is the question "What is Subtalk?" The only one who really is in a position to say so is Dave, and as I write this I see only two general caveats: "Avoid Flamage" and "No general tourism questions." If he wished, Dave could post a FAQ or "Charter" every month or so to make this clearer. This is the way many newsgroups do it.
Failing that, my own rarely humble opinion is that while I think people should keep rampant OT-ing down, I don't believe everyone should have to "walk on eggs" to please one or another particular poster.]
Dave probably won't be pleased to hear this, but I (sometimes) see Subtalk as a neat forum for complaints. Hey, it's fun to rail away against the Beame Shuffle, suit-covered anuses on the LIRR, anencephalic City Council members, Upper West Side limousine liberals, and so on :-)
But seriously, I find that Subtalk is a useful place for give-and-take on many different topics. Nyc.transit is not quite as useful, IMO.
I don't mind people posting complaints here as long as they understand that their breath is 99% of the time going wasted because those who can do something about it aren't reading SubTalk...
I say 99% because some of the times someone reading SubTalk CAN do something about it. Like Train Dude and bad A/C on cars... but really, that's an unusual case.
-Dave
I post, and respond to posts, on the issue of transit (especially subways) and issues related to transit.
Related issues includes a lot of things -- labor relations, urban planning, government fiscal policy, energy issues, urban history, goods and services accessible by transit, etc. All affect transit use, transit users, transit policy. As long as (to use a legal term) there is a "rational nexus" to the subway, or subways in general, or subway predecessors like light rail and elevateds, I see no reason to ban a topic from the board.
I'm not an engineer, so some of the technical stuff goes over my head, though I do learn from it.
If there are posts I don't like, I ignore them. If there are posters I don't like, I ignore their posts. If there are threads I don't like, I ignore them. I don't have enough time to read all the posts.
To me, Subtalk is more like a daily newspaper produced by transit fans, with extensive coverage of transit issues and articles on other subjects, but always from a transit point of view.
I think we're mostly "A", all too often "D", "E" and "F", and not enough "B". However I don't see us getting more "B". We're not an industry journal. Without professional researchers and writers coming on board to actually do that sort of thing, it won't happen any time soon either. I'd like to find a place between "A" and "B"-- i.e. take the little technical and historical snippets and work them into a more sober article once in a while but who has time?
-Dave
take the little technical and historical snippets and work them into a more sober article once in a while but who has time?
This is what I look to do with "The Third Rail," but as you say, this "magazine" format is time-consuming.
BTW, I misspoke ("mislettered") myself: I meant to say that I think of Subtalk as being "C" (like an employee publication) but would accept "F" (it yam what it yam) if nothing else could reach agreement, not "E" (National Lampoon).
I can't see a real stab at "A" or "B" simply because those choices require strong editing which is not possible in a more-or-less open self-selected forum.
Ahh. Well I was answering from my perspective managing the entire site. In my head I can't separate the two given the amount of time I do spend on "editorial" tasks. Considering the entire site I don't see why A or B is an unattainable goal, well, at least A if not B, but I forgot that most people treat SubTalk as it's own thing. I think a lot of visitors never even bother to see what's under the www.nycsubway.org link at the top of every SubTalk page. (Not you, Paul, but in general.)
-Dave
I don't know which letter this fits into, but mostly I like this forum as a place where I can ask railfanny transit questions and get inteligent answers. And every so often I also like to vent the odd complaint (yes I understand it has no practical use, but we all need to vent!)
Subtalk is a combination of 3 things. First A, a place where people can ask questions and get answers. Second it is an anecdote exchange forum where people can tell stories ot observations and others can comment about them. Third it is a place where people can tell railfan humour and expect to have people actually get the joke.
Officer walks up to car window. "You seem to have had it in Run 8 back there. What's the hurry, the intermodal yard closing?"
I view this board as 2 things:
1. Proof that I'm not a lunatic because I'm a subway nut. Until I discovered this website, I thought I was.
2. An educational tool. My knowledge of subway history has increased exponentially since before I discovered it.
I believe all the recent trouble has been caused by those who view this board as something more than what it is. It's merely a place where strangers with similar interests can exchange ideas and information.
If Dave decided to shut this board down today, I wouldn't cry. However, some of us would. These people need to take this bit of advice, not meant as an insult:
Get a life.
Personally I see Subtalk as a cross between A, B, & D!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
trevor... if you rearrange the letters in your choice, would it be correct to say that you feel subtalk is really B. A. D .--- as is, where it's happening???
LOL HA HA HA HA HA HA HA H!
Good one paul!
Trevor
After reading this and other recent posts, I'm starting to realize that it isn't just me. Subtalk appears to be changing and I'm not sure I like it. I went along through rough days earlier this year, and the whole password thing, but now it's getting goofy again (maybe it's the heat).
I'm sorry to see Train Dude/Steve go to a dormant status but I can agree with his rationale. I've always thought that Subtalk was an exchange of ideas, information, etc. When it gets reduced to insults, it's no longer fun (as Steve noted, anger isn't worth the energy). I don't see the need to insult someone just because of a disagreement - we supposedly live in a free country and different opinions should be accepted.
I'm also a little disappointed with some of the threads. I don't spend a lot of time on this board, perhaps 2 or 3 times a week if that. I have many other interests and a busy life. I like to check in and see what's happening and I like to add my spins, information, 2 cents, etc as I see fit. Lately, though, it seems that many of my posts get shoved to the archives after a couple of days. This is fine, but when seemingly mindless stuff like the 'snot' discussion stays on the board, it makes me wonder. I know, as a non-NY'er, many of my posts have more to do with home (Phila), but this isn't just all about NYC either.
I'm not ready to announce that I'm leaving the board (and, even if I did, it's my decision), but I would like to voice my displeasure with the way things seem to be going. If I do decide to go, I would like to think that I've left some valuable information here for others to use as they see fit.
I am a bit disappointed in the beligerrence of some of the posts and their authors. Personally I could do without this, but it is a free country. I am also saddened by the actions of a frequent poster who saw fit to borrow materials from me over a year ago but has not yet returned them and now will not respond to my e-mails asking for this back. I sent these in good faith and now have apparently been burned by this person who is by the way still posting. I have had to disappoint three others who have asked to borrow the same books, etc which have selfishly been kept from me. I know this is not an example of the typical Subtalk poster, and I suspect our paths will cross at some point so I can determine why this person did what was done.
Back to the point - let's keep Subtalk as interesting, light-hearted and informative as it once was.
[I'm sorry to see Train Dude/Steve go to a dormant status but I can agree with his rationale. I've always thought that Subtalk was an exchange of ideas, information, etc. When it gets reduced to insults, it's no longer fun (as Steve noted, anger isn't worth the energy). I don't see the need to insult someone just because of a disagreement - we supposedly live in a free country and different opinions should be accepted.
I'm also a little disappointed with some of the threads. Lately, though, it seems that many of my posts get shoved to the archives after a couple of days. This is fine, but when seemingly mindless stuff like the 'snot' discussion stays on the board, it makes me wonder.]
I'd attribute this to a more or less inevitable ebb and flow. Whether on Usenet or on Subtalk, there are periods during which there are many interesting threads, and periods during which there's mostly fluff. Why this happens I don't know, but it happens. The best advice I can offer is to hang in there, as the quality of discussions is bound to improve.
[I am a bit disappointed in the beligerrence of some of the posts and their authors. Personally I could do without this, but it is a free country.]
Killfiles are one solution. Another one is to read only those threads whose titles seem interesting. You also can concentrate on posts by Subtalkers whom you've determined to be knowledgeable and interesting (and yes, it doesn't take long to figure out who's who.) I know it's tempting to read, or try to read, every single posting, but that's not necessary and indeed might detract from one's enjoyment of Subtalk.
It's not me either, and I'm starting to sick of Jersey Mike's incessant clutter. I think he's going to be the next addition to my killfile. If everybody does, maybe he'll just go away.
Ok, I promice to stop posting lamely humourous stuff. Are my generalized questions about transit ok, or should I cut those out too. Here tell me which of the following are acceptable and i will follow your guidelines to the letter. I don't want to be a nussiance here.
Funny Subway Stories
Specific Subway Questions
General Subway Questions
Philly Area Transit News
Philly Area Transit Observations
Tell me what you want and I'll do it.
I'll go with Philly Area Transit.
No questions, unless it's something you don't know.
So none of those pure opinion questions. No, what do you like, only how does it work. What about, a which is better question.
Here tell me which of the following are acceptable and i will follow your guidelines to the letter. I don't want to be a nussiance here.
Funny Subway Stories NO (unless they are true)
Specific Subway Questions OK if you are asking to gain knowledge.
General Subway Questions NO NO NO (see below)
Philly Area Transit News OK
Philly Area Transit Observations OK
Mike;
I assume when you say "General Subway Questions" you are referring to the threads that you are forever starting with subjects like "Why don't they paint the subways pink?" or "How do transit systems staff peak period operations?" or "Why do new transit projects cost so much?" which you seem to post more from some narcissist need to see your posts than any real desire to get meaningful information.
You have said it yourself in previous posts. You put excessive posts on the board, and you post a large quantity so some of them will be interesting. You should not worry about being interesting to others, but post only what is really interesting to you. Try for quality, not quantity.
Tom
Well I do ask them because I am interested. I don't have any Subway friends to ask these questions to, but if this MB thinks they are fluff I'll hold em for sobtalk live or something.
Mike;
If you send me an e-mail or snail mail address, I'll send you a detailed critique of what I find objectionable in your general questions, and suggestions as to how they could be improved.
Tom
I am also saddened by the actions of a frequent poster who saw fit to borrow materials from me over a year ago but has not yet returned them and now will not respond to my e-mails asking for this back. I sent these in good faith and now have apparently been burned by this person ...
Boy do I share your pain, Bobw. I lent one of my videotape masters out to someone for his request "to use my footage to make a professional style video". It's well over a year and a half, and I still don't have it back.
And yet there are others who have graciously loaned me rare books to look at which I am very grateful for. And I have always (and in one particular case, working on) returning them, either by insured mail or in person. So I guess we just managed to find the same bad apples off that proverbial tree.
--Mark
That makes three of us. No one on Subtalk falls into that category, mind you; however, I've been burned more than once when I've loaned stuff out. It's gotten to the point where I simply refuse to lend anything to anyone anymore. Maybe I should require a hefty deposit up front...
While I was waiting for an outboung green line train at Park St., a Boeing-Vertol lrv passed by without customers because the back of the train was smoking. I really wonder how much longer these cars will last;lately they have been making more whining sounds than normal, plus there is sometimes an awful screeching sound from the middle of the car in the "moving circle" part. I appreciate them being in service since the MBTA needs those 55 cars, but sometimes I question their safety. The Amerail overhaul was done so the cars would last through 1999, and now thee type-8 delivery may not be complete until 2002...this doesn't sound like a good situation to me.
Also, as I was traveling inbound, I saw one of the PCC trolley doors open at Boylston, but the car was dark and I don't think anyone was inside. -Nick
I ended up going back on the green line today. At Boylston, there were now workers inside both trolley cars (the lights had been turned on)...looks like a cleaning job was going on. -Nick
These would have been the PCC and the Type 5?
I'm looking for infrmation connected with the Caracas Metro System. I'll be very grateful if anyone could help me with facts about this Metro system.
This topic has come about before, but I want to address it directly:
Does it seem odd to anyone else that the express tracks leading to 179th and Hillside Ave are unused? This is, after all, one of the farthest reaches of the subway. 179th is one of the places you'd think we need express service the most.
Why couldn't they extend the G or R to 179th so the F can run express all the way? And is there any real hope that the 63rd St. extension will result in local/express service on the Hilside Ave branch?
Well, it all comes down to a 1 thing... cars. I doubt that the NYCT can cough up a few extra cars to extend service of any lines all the way.
That's the...
running on...
's
perspective.
[Why couldn't they extend the G or R to 179th so the F can run express all the way?]
When Archer Avenue first opened, the pattern was:
E - express thru to Archer
F - express thru to 179th
G - local to Continental
R - local to 179th
Folks at Van Wyck Blvd (now "Briarwood") and 75th Avenue complained about having only R trains, so the R was cut back to Continental and the F was sent local in the "outer zone" of the Queens Blvd line.
..
<Queens Blvd line.>>
But Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Ave are LOCAL STOPS! All anyone has to do is transfer at the next express station. It's the same as with any local-express situation. For that matter riders who use the 111th and 103rd St. stations on the Flushing IRT only have local service. And the riders who use Neck Rd. and Avenue U stations of the Brighton Line only have local service. What's really the difference?
There's obviously the difference.
There these people get on the train and it becomes express, no transfer, it's a one seat ride.
The IND was smart in their design. Trains would be local on the outer ends (205th Street, Washington Heights, even Culver and Lefferts/Rockaway), then become express to a new starting local as things get denser with few stops and finally stops everywhere that's useful downtown.
The IRT/BMT isn't as good in that respect. Notice the 4 ending at Utica with the 3 continuing, or the Q ending at Brighton Beach with the D continuing. It should be the other way around (and the older two also had too many stops in places).
This express/local stuff is SO overrated. It was discussed to the point of boredom about a year ago. The difference in the running/station differential time for the F past Continental local vs. express is 4 stations. The mileage has to be covered anyway! The running time difference is only 1 or 2 minutes! Relax! You'll get there! The F can easily handle the crowds by itself via local! The E is much more crowded leaving Union Tkpe. compared to the F since most bus lines got rerouted to Parsons/Archer in Dec. 1988.
Using these tracks was only viable when the E AND F ran to 179th, where one train ran local (E) and the other express (F). Since both trains went express after Continental Ave, there was no real incentive to avoid the local. When the R replaced the E in 1988, it made the local train highly undesirable, as it really lengthened the ride into Manhattan, having to make every stop in Queens. It was the communities around the outer portion of the Hillside Ave. line which pushed for the end of express F service in 1992 (which indirectly doomed the remaining R30 subway cars, but that's another story). This mood hasen't changed, and no new service via 63rd. St will make things different if it goes local west of Continental.
why stop for F service???
BM34x
F express service to 179th St was stopped because the communities does not want to take the fewer R locals and watch the more frequent F expresses zoom by. The result is what we have today.
And the same people who were screaming bloody murder about the 'R' being the sole provider at local stations between Forest Hills and Jamaica are now screaming bloody murder about the 'F' changing from express to local between Forest Hills and Jamaica.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
There are folks over in northern Virginia who use I-66 who routinely call into the drive-time radio talk shows to complain that Metro should install walls between the subway tracks and the automobile lanes "because it is absolutely infuriating to see the subway flying by at 60MPH while we haven't moved an inch for over an hour." Some idiots have even suggested the subway be removed so the ROW can be reclaimed for automobiles. It was really funny listening to a verbal slugfest the other day between these doofuses and the folks who want the metro link for the Rt. 7/Dulles Airport corridors.
"because it is absolutely infuriating to see the subway flying by at 60MPH while we haven't moved an inch for over an hour."
Infuriating? Maybe, but from the other point of view it's hilarious! Watching the cars creep along on the Kennedy Expressway (on weekends, mind you!) while I fly past in a Blue Line train is the only reason I ever use the CTA to get downtown instead of always using Metra. The Metra line looks down on the expressway for a good distance too, but you can't see the faces of the drivers and their passengers as you can from the L trains. :^)
The taxi passengers look especially dyspeptic when they see the L trains pass them as their meter ticks ever upward. They probably considered using the subway to get to/from the airport but decided on a taxi because they presumed it would be faster. Not during daylight hours on weekdays, pal!
Yeah, the Lincoln tunnel is pretty bad. It took 30 minutes just to get through yesterday on an NJT bus. Next time I might be better off taking PATH part of the way, and then catch a bus.
I wish they'd put trains along the LIE!
I remember getting stuck at the Lincoln Tunnel in June of 1967 while heading into the city to my cousin's graduation party. It was a Saturday afternoon, and it must have taken us a good half hour to go all the way down that spiral ramp on the Jersey side. Bumper to bumper right up to the toll booths. Can't remember if all three tubes were open.
OTOH, we drove through it early on New Year's Day in 1971, and there was only one lane open in each direction in each of the outer tubes. No tie-ups at all; we cruised on through.
I drove my parents in my Dad's car westbound through the Lincoln Tunnel I think mid '60's and people with clipboards and stopwatches were standing in the approach counting the cars per minute entering. A traffic cop stopped us (and traffic behind us) for no apparent reason and made us wait until the next time unit began. We had no clue as to what was going on. Several years later an article was published in Scientific American describing a study that correlated maximum traffic flow with cars per minute per lane entering the tunnel. We had participated in the study without knowing it at the time.
(I wish they'd put trains along the LIE!)
I'd settle for an express bus lane. A bus terminal with subway connection could be built in Queens to soak up some of that local capacity through the 63rd St tunnel.
Maybe they need to bring back the poster of the 1950's showing traffic bumper to bumper on the George Washington Br. and underneath saying next time take the train. If nothing else it would apply in cities and suburbs where trains are evrywhere, ok, almost.
I could just imagine it:
You're sitting back on an Orange line train as it speeds through the median of I-66, and watching thousands of motionless vehicles fly by on the eastbound lanes on a weekday morning. Maybe seeing a co-worker in one of those cars. You smile and think to yourself: "I'll get there before you do!"
It's just great! Too bad B, D, & Q trains crawl at 25 MPH or less across the Manhattan Bridge.
Same thing with light rail trains cruising along Santa Fe Drive at 55 mph while vehicular traffic crawls along.
Speaking of which, I drove by the southern terminus yesterday, and noticed RTD has put up an information sign on the southwest corner of Mineral and Santa Fe denoting parking status, no doubt in response to all the complaints received about lack of parking. It's one of those 3-line electronic message signs you see at construction zones, and it was displaying: RTD LOT FULL.
(RE: Manny B) They still beat the cars in many cases (rush hour)! Same with the Willy B. That's why I prefer the bridges. It must've been hell for the motorists with both sides open, trains passing by at 20 MPH to both sides of you, so often you forget they're trains and attempt to change into the fast moving lane...
What? 20mph so slow? Why not at least 40mph? or perhaps 50mph? Our Muni Metro system runs at 50mph through their longest tunnel and the Bay Area Rapid Transit zips through the tube at 80mph and 70mph on some elevated structures.
Well, we go up to 60 in our river tubes, but you have a grade of about 200 feet to fight on the way up, and timers on the way down to keep you from speeding through the station on either end.
How about riding Bart along the Freeways at 70mph on both sides of the bay, and the traffic standing still, Can t wait until they extend it to the airportin SFO
The most exciting part is on the Dublin line between Castro Valley and Dublin/Pleasanton station.
The fun part is when passing by the Hayward yard. Unless changing operators, trains zip by at high speed, even on switches and cross-overs. Surely it's noisy and vibrating, a lot of people do fear derailment, which did happened near Lafayette station (forgot when, but not long ago).
The most irritating part is the downtown Oakland junction and the elevated structure in Daly City, where tight curves (extremely tight ones) and numerous switches/cross-overs limit trains to 15-20mph.
The Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges are quite old. The whole thing would shake if a 600'-long train went flying along at 50 mph. If you are not a New Yorker it is good to remember a good rule of thumb: everything runs slower, takes longer, and costs more in NYC. So going over the Bridges on a 20 mph train may seem slow in other parts of the country, but it is better than driving at 10 mph in dense and tense traffic in NYC.
Things are faster in New York, especially compared to slow, small cow towns elsewhere in the country (or even the state).
Ever heard of a New York Minute?
We got stuck in a big traffic jam on the Williamsburg Bridge once. It took maybe an hour to get from mid span to the Manhattan end. I lost count of how many subway trains went by. Naturally, I found myself wishing I could be on one of them.
Yeah but try to find a parking space after 8am on the Orange line anywhere west of Balston, and there you have to pay
Building additional parking facilities is a comparatively cheap proposition.
with apologies to the original-- "billions for transit, not one cent for highways" (defense, tribute--in response to Barbary Pirate demands)
A very one-sided and flawed attitude.
08/10/2000
"Some idiots have even suggested the subway be removed so the ROW can be reclaimed for automobiles."
Oh really? Let's say for the sake of argument, this was done. How much faster would rush hour traffic move with the addition of one lane?
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be completely jammed within the first hour it was open.
What amazes me about the DC burbs is how, in spite of the horrendous traffic, they just keep planting new subdivisions everywhere they can but doing nothing about road capacity and other infrastructure issues. In the same vein, I know a number of people here in the District whose lives revolve around areas served by Metro, but who wouldn't be caught dead riding the subway. So, they drive every where they're going, complain about how awful DC is to get around or find parking, and are perpetually late for everything. Just as in NYC, the fastest way around DC is still usually by subway.
>> but doing nothing
about road capacity and other infrastructure issues.<< Au contraire, in fact I 270 in Montgomery County exemplifies the futility of highway construction. Extra lanes were built during the 90's with a hoped for ten year breathing period for the highway. Guess again, opened the lanes--the parking lot just got bigger. In fact considering the delays during construction, the entire project was counterproductive both instantly and over the long haul. While as someone raised there, I am pleased Metro is getting more riders--now we need 24/7 service and flat fares.
I-270 is one thing. It's a "long haul" highway route, which makes it easy to justify the expenditure and the land for the expansion was available. OTOH, the local routes like 355 just get worse and worse. I've been going to a client over on Piccard Drive in Rockville (Metro to Shady Grove and <10 minute Ride On from there) for most of this year, and it's noticeably more congested at the intersection of 355 & Redland where that huge King Farm development is going on. Just the few hundred units that have opened are messing things up pretty bad. Add that to all the other residential and retail that has opened all along 355 over the past few years, and you have a 355 that just crawls along most of the day. It's the same story for Rt. 7 -- and not just around Tysons anymore.
When I moved to DC in the early 90s, the really bad congestion on 7 was pretty much limited to the area between 66 and McLean. Now, it's awful the entire run between Alexandria and Leesburg. Metro service for the area won't come on line fast enough, IMO.
DC's highway design is without a doubt the worst in the United States, mainly because of the hubris of the area's planners that everyone wants to go into Washington. After the Beltway, there are no east-west connecting roads across the Potomac all the way up to Point of Rocks, which means all the traffic has to funnel onto 7 heading into Tyson's corner -- except for those who are willing to endure the twisting shortcut of 193 or pay for a one-exit trip on the Dulles Toll Road.
The situation in the south is even worse, since the Beltway crosses a drawbridge over the Potomac there, and the problem is compounded by the fact that most of the parking lots at the distant stations on the Metro have already reached their capacity, forcing drivers onto the highways more just to find a way to get to the subway.
Fortunately, I don't have to deal with Washington traffic very often. I would become the poster child for road rage if I had to do a regular commute by car. I mainly work from home, 3 blocks from the Dupont Circle Station. Almost all of my local clients are near Metro, or easy to reach from it, paying visits on them is pretty much hassle-free. There's a great pleasure in being able to get some extra work done on a notebook or reading on a subway train zipping past those poor souls sitting in their cars on 66 or 355. Perhaps I should be a bit more gracious and wave to them now and then.
Even with that design, there still is no highway access from the north to DC and no highway through DC.
When I stayed in Potomac, MD, we had to take the American Legion Bridge to Virginia and then take the GW Parkway for the fastest route into the city.
The GW is better now that they've got most of the construction completed.
One other thing DC did that messed up their highway system was to allow public pressure to win out and block the orignially planned route for I-95, from it's meeting with the Beltway near College Park on south on a route mostly along North Capitol Street to the downtown area. The tunnel beneath the Mall was completed 30 years ago, but just dead ends now at New York Ave., and evnetually, the governemtn gave up, redesignated that stretch I-395 and stuck the I-95 label on the east side loop of the Beltway, jamming even more traffic on that overcrowded route.
Memphis, Tenn., is the only other city I know that blocked an Interstate from going through town and forced it onto the already-built loop. Driving through there during rush hour isn't a whole lot of fun, either.
My but this thread has drifted from its original topic!
Anyway, Boston is another city where I-95 was not allowed to run through, and forced onto the MA 128 beltway.
:)Andrew
It wouldn't be much faster at all, considering the road would be jammed with extra cars driven by the people who used to ride the train ...
Those dumbasses will probably get their barriers, too. I gotta ride this before some idiot promises to have these thing put up if he gets elected.
I dropped Metro a feedback saying they should not only reject barriers on the Orange Line, they should consider a few quick toots on their horns every now and then to make sure the stopped traffic knows the trains are flying past. I also suggested they put banners on the fences between the road & ROW reminding drivers they wouldn't be sitting there reading the sign if they were on the subway.
Actually, at the moment, Metro isn't hurting for ridership. They've been doing about 600K trips a day on the subway for a few months now. The unfortunate part is no one expected doubling of ridership 5 years ago, and the 300 new cars they ordered won't be in service until late this year. With some luck, they'll get the funding to buy more cars before they're in the same boat as NYC.
Well, the joke's on me today!
This morning I was riding on the Q75 bus. I decided, just for a novelty, to go to 169th instead of 179th. I'm at the (local) platform on 169th, and gues what: This was the one time, THE ONE FRIGGIN TIME, the F is running express! GRRRRRRR!
There seemed to be no local trains forthcoming (the platform was REALLY crowded), so I got on a Queens-bound F back 10 179th---just as a Manhattan-bound F stops on the opposite platform! I get to 179th, and my train is running local.
GRRRRRRRR!
Andrew
On The Kawasaki Note:
Today to be nosy I took a ride up to the Kawasaki Plant in Yonkers to see what was going on, the people there were generally nice and gave me a beautiful tour of the facility. They also pulled me outside to the yard to see what R142As are completed. Here is the deal of what is done up at the plant:
There is Two 10-Car Sets of R-142As completed, One 5-Car Set of R-142A completed, 3 Cars wrapped in plastic sitting on Wide-Load Trucks, Car #7209 Half Completed on a Wide-Load Truck. While inside the plant there were another Two 10-Car Sets just about completed. The highest number car seen was 7260.
____________
On the Bombardier Note:
As we all know, 6301-6310 are already built and running. Sitting up at 180th are Cars 6311-6330, 6331-6340 will be arrving sometime in the next week or two.
GET THE REDBIRD PICS SOON, CAUSE BASED OFF OF WHAT I SAW TODAY AND WHAT I WAS TOLD UP AT 180TH, WE DON'T HAVE MUCH TIME LEFT!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Oh how sweet it is to hear that! That old curse on the #2 line is finally going away! I'm headed home for two weeks before school starts and I definitely hope to get some R142/142A rides. But I will get some Redbird pictures too.
The R142 on the 2 has benn running 3 days straight (though always late, today it appeared to be on time because of a struck passeneger causing such delays it actually went slow enough to miss one complete round trip). I haven't seen the Kawasakis in days.
Well, I better get a web cam out so the 142 fans can see a delivery being made. Hehe. I'll know for sure when I see SBK engines pulling a consist. Then I can report it here.
Oh well! We knew this moment was coming. Redbird retirement is inevitable. It's just a matter of when....
-Stef
Ya can't nauseate us with the 142's
till they can pass the 30 trial days!!
Suffering from nausea? Take some medicine.
Until then I'll agree with you. Nothing's definite until those cars (142s) pass the 30 day test. I suggest you boycott NYCT in protest over retirement of the oldies, but goodies.
-Stef
I'm with ya Stef,... here and at SLTM!
I saw one at the Unionport Yards this morning and this afternoon at the eastern end of the yard, with the doors taped shut, it looked brand spanking new.
1 South Ferry 9 wouldn't welcome the news, but I appreciate change. The Kawasaki Cars, unlike their Bombardier Counterparts, get trucked into the system. I can't recall if there was ever a time where subway cars were delivered to the system by way of the northern most yard in the system, 239th St Yard.
Anyone know of any other instances where cars were delivered to the yard or removed?
One of the posters here said recently a couple of wrecks were to be scrapped sometime ago and were moved near a driveway in the yard for that purpose. I imagine they're gone now.
-Stef
Those were probably the roast Redbirds (#9152-3; 8980-1) involved in the Wakefield Yard Lead incident of 2/03/1998.
wayn
Those are the ones. You can kiss them goodbye. Surprisingly, they went into the yard after the accident, but they never came out afterwards. I would have thought that they would have been pulled down to 207th St before being scrapped and sit with other cars on the deadline.
On a Kawasaki note, there appears even mode additions to the 142A fleet. I believe that 7221-7225 are on the property and coupled to another 5 car train that a poster reported seeing at Unionport Yard earlier in the week (7236-7240).
-Stef
Actually it's 7231-7235 and it's not coupled, 7235 and 7236 are parked really close together with some kind of brake hooked to each ends wheels.
Trevor Logan
Sorry! I was watching the Kawasaki Cars from the Bronx River Parkway (riding in an automobile), and couldn't tell the car numbers for sure nor that they weren't coupled.
Regards,
Stef
Anybody seen any of the cars in the 7221-7230 range?
wayne
They are up at the Kawasaki Plant, I saw them there when I went up to the plant last friday!
Trevor
Was the "brake" more commonly known as a chock?
Yeah, a Chock! I couldn't think of the name of it off the top! Thanks!
Trevor
In some places they call them "trigs". I personally hate 'em. BTC used to use them in carhouses, but they were supposed to be placed in front of the leading wheel on the right hand side.
One morning, I went to pull a car out of Bay 2 in York Road Carhouse. I put the reverse bar in the quadrant, moved it to the "forward" position and then remembered to check for the chock. So, I got out of the seat and checked - no chock. Back in the seat, I released the brake and stepped on the power pedal. WHAM!! The car rose up slightly and BANG! came back down. I slammed on the brakes, jumped out of the seat and down the steps. Some son-of-a-b**** had chocked the car - on the first wheel of the rear truck. I hate chocks.
It still sounds as if I'll still be able to say "hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds" come October for one last time, anyway.:-)
Well, with the 30-day clock just reset, the Redbirds may be on their last legs, but they're not going anywhere before the fall at the earliest.
I'd guess if you want pictures of the R-26/28s and some of the R-29s, it would be a good idea to get the camera out by the end of the year, but the bulk of the R-33/36s probably still have another summer ahead of them -- bad air-conditioning (or in the R-33WF's case, no air-conditioning) and all.
I'm sorry to see your Redbirds go too, but you are getting a good subway fleet from Kawasaki. SEPTA made the right decision for The BSL in the early '80s. Just be thankful your new fleet did not come from Adtrash, excuse me, Adtranz. If SEPTA went with Kawasaki for the Market-Frankford line, we would have had new cars 3 years earlier and they would look similar to the B-4s.
Subway carbodies are usually designed by the purchasing agency or by a consultant to the agency, not by the builder. The builder can add some aesthetic touches, but is usually not responsible for the entire "look" of the car. Thus, SEPTA's M-4 would likely have looked much as it does even if Kawasaki (or any other carbuilder), instead of Adtranz, had built it.
David
I got some news for you. The M-4 fleet was designed by Adtranz, so by all means, it isn't a very good design.
That is news to me. Is there proof of this? My understanding is that a consultant designed the cars.
David
Nope. The M4's were designed by SEPTA itself. Also the N-5's. Disasters all the way.
See some other posts on the Adtran sale.
Subway carbodies are usually designed by the purchasing agency or by a consultant to the agency, not by the builder...
...And sometimes even by an architect. The car bodies of Chicago's 2200-Series rapid transit cars were designed by Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, a major Chicago-based architecture firm (same firm that designed the Sears Tower and John Hancock Center, among many other projects). Incidentally, I think the 2200's are the nicest-looking cars on the CTA system, with very clean, sharp lines. The cars still look brand-new after all these years, and the amazing thing is they're only three years younger than the R-36 Rustbirds. (The 2200's were rebuilt a few years ago, but their exterior appearance remained mostly unchanged.)
More pics of the 2200's
The moral of the story: Always hire an architect to design your subway cars!
On a more serious note, let's say somebody wants to make a career designing passenger rail cars. What sort of degree would be required, and where would that person most likely end up working?
(No, I'm not considering a career change, but it's something I've always been a bit curious about. Having said that, I do sometimes design subway and commuter rail cars on AutoCAD as a hobby, in addition to my architectural design projects.)
-- David
Boston, MA
Wow, the 2200s sure are nice cars. I always liked the look of CTA cars having seen them in the many movies and TV shows set in Chicago. Would it have killed the MTA to take a clue from the CTA cars instead of keeping the same design for so many years on the IRT-cars (as well as the same materials and same roll signs)?
It wasn't until the R40 that a new end design came for NYC cars. It was designed by Raymond Loewy who designed the famous GG1 electric loco. Too bad a new interior design had to wait till the R44. But that's the MTA for you.
Although the R-40 "slants" were designed by the Raymond Loewy firm (after it's merger with William Snaith Associates) I seriously doubt that Mr. Loewy had very much to do with this design personally. By the time the R-40's were designed, Mr. Loewy was semi-retired, and was involved in projects only on a "pick and choose" basis. Actually, the original design renderings for the R-40's were very striking, particularly the interiors, which were very different from what was eventually produced. Production economics and other factors at the time led to a much compromised result. The original design intent was much more integrated than the fiberglass end stuck on a R-38 shell that the public eventually got.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think the exterior design of the R-142's just a tad bland?
Earlier cars, such as the R-42's, R-44's, R-46's, R-68's, and even the R-62's, had a certain amount of corrugations on the exterior to 'dress them up" Even the R-110 A's had them.
Also, the design of the front windows, together with the handrail under the motorman's window and the slanted headlight bezels give the front an unbalanced look.
Furthermore...although I understand that the MTA wants to get away from the low-tech rollsigns, is replacing the large cloth numeral (or letter) on the front window such a great idea? The LCD sign is harder to read from a distance. Not only that, but I've wondered if the clear window that replaced the rollsign is really necessary for the T.O.'s (Any T.O.'s out there care to comment?)
I agree about the blandness, the red stripe should be extended down the whole train to compensate.
Now as for the front end, I think it's nice and is an excellent replacement for the R-42/R-68/R-110B bonnet.
Digital rollsigns are a lot easier to change, why would you need to see the train "from a distance" anyway? So you can run to try to catch a train you won't catch or so you can avoid walking to the platform you're going to go to anyway? The signs are a lot easier to change and maintain.
The extra window I don't believe is for visibility but rather for symmetry, the R-38 and prior cars (and the M-class commuter cars) looked asymmetrical with the lack of something on the left.
I love that extra window! I believe the MTA is the only TA (and Rail Company) in the east that still has cars that do not have a window on both sides. PATH does, SEPTA does (rail and subway), NJT does, PATCO does, WMATA does...
Almost identical cars: MTA Shoreliners and NJT Comets, the shoreliners look like one-eyed pirates. At least the MTA got a clue and ordered cars with windows on both sides for the C-3s and newer shoreliners (as well as the 110A and 142). Hopefully the M-7 and rebult M-2s and 3s will follow suit (and, if so, will have the MTA's first sit-down railfan window!). Plus, this window actually has functionality in transverse cabs so that instructors can monitor trainees' actions more easily, and more light is let in therefore allowing people to spot T/Os that are smpking, sleeping, or reading more easily (from the platform).
Remember, they junked the rollsign idea but were probably seriously considering it since the mockup had it. The LED front sign gives the cars a more futuristíc look, plus it eliminates the pesky problem one often sees with R-68s: Having to change the middle signs. One the 142a this is done automatically, on the 142 these are blank.
M-7s will have windows on both sides of the outward-facing ends.
Mark
If you want a one-eyed pirate, his name is BART.
--Mark
have you seen the interior plans for the slope40s
those cars are the same age of the 38s???!?!?!?!?!???!!!!!?!
The 2200's were built in 1967, which I believe is the same year the R-38's were built. I was amazed myself when I found that out... I think the 2200's look at least as modern as the R142's.
I think it's also interesting to note that 1967 was around the height of creativity during the years of the Second Chicago School of Architecture, producing such forward-looking masterpieces such as the John Hancock Center, the Inland Steel Building, the First National Bank Building (now Bank One Plaza), and several Mies Van Der Rohe buildings. Aesthetically speaking, Chicago really was on top of the world during this period.
-- David
Boston, MA
08/15/2000
[The 2200's were built in 1967, which I believe is the same year the R-38's were built.]
Close but no cigar!
R-38 1966
R-40S 1967
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, R-38 1966-67, R-40 1968-69 (with incomplete car shells on display in November 1967 to drum up support for a bond issue), Chicago 2200s 1969!
David
On the evening of August 16, 2000 I will begin twelve days of intensive on-site research in Chicago for my work in progress "Windy Rails:The Elevated Railroad and the Transformation of Chicago". I am looking forward to spending time in the North, West, and South Sides and conducting on the spot interviews with people who live near and beneath the "L". If my work on "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" taught me nothing else it is this; that the key to understanding these lines and the cities within which they run is not to ride the rails alone or to become immersed in facts, it is to mingle with those for whom these lines are neither fad nor hobby but a way of life.
There are those who say that I am nuts to venture into these communities and on a certain level I doubt not that they are right. Yet the urge to write books that are not only factual but speak of the spirit of the times makes whatever risks attendant with such a venture far worthwhile. Research, the quest for knowledge in its most basic form, is a thrilling voyage of discovery from which no man nor woman should shrink if provided the chance. As such I consider myself blessed to have this opportunity and hope that the fruits of my labors will bring forth a work that is worthy to be read and enjoyed by all.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
Be Cafeful if you plan to check out the abandoned station at Central Av on the Forest Park line.
The reason being, I was assaulted there by a 15th district Chicago Police officer. One night I decided to drive over there to take some pictures. To get the best view, you must go behind a old factory. Unknown to me, this area had a history of drug dealers and prostitutes. About 30 seconds after I arrived, a squad car comes speeding towards me and the officers leap out with their guns drawn. They shoved me onto the hood of the car and one pig held me there while the other one searched me and the car without consent. While this was going on, the officer holding me down kept making comments like "move your hands and I'll crack your skull open". When they asked what I was doing there I told them that I was taking pictures of the station. The jerk off's didn't believe that I was a train buff and that's when one of the pigs punched me twice in the stomach. I fell on the ground and he told me never to come back to the city again, and they sped off. Of course, I filed and complaint with the Office of Proffesional Standards, but they said that there was insufficient evidence.
So my advice to you when you go to these neighborhoods, don't be afraid of the drug dealers, thiefs, or gangs, but instead you need to worry about the scumbag Chicago Police Department.
Thanks for the tip. I didn't realize that the cops were that nuts out there. My hat's off to you though. Going out there at night with a camera took lots and lots of guts. My nighttime activity will be limited to observations made from the trains. My advice to you is to take some sort of a flier announcing the publication of a book you've written about the transit system. That served to keep the cops and other riff raff at bay while I did my thing.
Eric Dale Smith
Chicago police are no worse than police anywhere else.
I was not there...I do not know what happened...but Central station on the Forest PK leg of the Blue Line is isolated...two blocks from any residences, walled off on the north by the Eisenhower EXPWY, while the B&OJCT RR borders on the south. Central AV ducks under the RR, the "L", and the expressway. South of the tracks all the way to Roosevelt is factories and vacant, industrial, wasteland. Its impossible to reach the station without trespassing!!! The station is unlit, just an island platform. The "L" tracks are actually on ground, having just exited the expressway median 1/2 mile to the east. I cannot comprehend anyone going there at night?????I know I wouldn't, not in a thousand years.
>>> Its impossible to reach the station without trespassing!!! <<<
And this somehow excuses an assault and battery on a citizen by a police officer?
Tom
Tom, if you know for a fact that assault and battery were committed upon a citizen by a police officer, you should have offered to have been a witness.
David
I'm not going to get into a whole big issue Harrison because my tempered flared up enough after the whole ordeal and I am trying to forget about it. Just take a stroll through any part of the 15th district and I guarantee that you will be hassled by the cops within 5 minutes. Or else listen to the 15th district cops on your scanner (460.4250) and you will hear for yourself how insane they are.
David:
From Adam's post prior to yours: " that's when one of the pigs punched me twice in the stomach. I fell on the ground and he told me never to come back to the city again, and they sped off"
From your prior post: "Chicago police are no worse than police anywhere else".
Adam's post clearly describes an assault and battery. When you state that the Chicago police are no worse than police anywhere and state one must be trespassing to reach that spot, you imply that you condone police assaulting citizens rather than arresting them for misdemeanors.
That's the kind of thinking that eventually leads to what we have in Los Angeles, where a police officer is charged with deliberately shooting and paralyzing a gang member, then planting a weapon on him, and through perjured testimony getting him sentenced to prison. (Which of course validates your statement that Chicago police are no worse than police anywhere. There are bad police everywhere.)
Tom
When you state that the Chicago police are no worse than police anywhere and state one must be trespassing to reach that spot, you imply that you condone police assaulting citizens rather than arresting them for misdemeanors.
You're putting words in my mouth. It was somebody else who suggessted he was trespassing, not me. I'm not familiar with the area in question, nor did I witness the incident itself, so I really can't comment specifically on what supposedly happened. Maybe he was actually was assualted by the cops, in which case his complaints are legitimate. Or maybe he forgot to mention that he lost his temper and tried to put up a fight with the cops, in which case he should be thankful he didn't end up with a bullet in his head. I wasn't there and neither was anybody else on this board, so we really don't know.
Regardless, I might suggest we put this thread to rest before it gets out of hand. There's been enough flame wars on this board already.
-- David
Boston, MA
Ooops, I thought you were responding to my posting. Guess I didn't read the header close enough. Nevermind.
-- David
Boston, MA
David Harrison, you have the same attitude as the cops did. To be exact I was behind the Olson Rug Factory. To get there you must be going north on Central and take the ramp up to the track level (this is where Central dips under the viaduct). You are wrong because I was not tresspassing. I was on an alley on city property, it is not owned by Oslon Rug. As I said you are as hard headed as the Chicago cops. Just because the Austin neighborhood is all Blacks means that I can't go there?
Also, I completely disagree with you, the Chicago PD is the worst department in the country. I grew up at Cicero & Diversey and had to put up with their crap all the time for stupid stuff. That is half the reason why I moved to New York. After a while, I started to hate Chicago and everything about it because of the cops.
Very interesting stories about the CPD. I'm looking at a map of the CTA and on the Forest Park line AKA" blue line" there is no Central station. Central ave. end around Columbus park.On the Harlem lake line AKA" green line" there is a central station.
I am asking because 2 years ago I went down to Chicago to be warned about the Dan Ryan Expressway with the infamous Robert Taylor Homes and not to take the red line through South Side Chicago. We took the Green line through California Pulaski and Cicero. Mid day drive by shooting on Pulaski, vacant residential wasteland, abandoned boarded up townhouses side by side with the Chicago Housing projects.
I know they were getting rid of the Robert taylor Homes. Have they? and is Chicago rebuilding these areas? Which line has the most abandoned stations and how hard is it to photograph them?
Right now there are 5 abandoned stations on the CTA. On the Forest Park line there is Central, Kostner, and California. Be careful if you want to photograph the Central station (read my earlier post). Kostner and California stations are in the middle of the Eisenhower Expressway. To get photographs of these, just park on the side of the Bridge of each street and you'll have great overhead views. But keep in mind the attitude of the Chicago police (which is unless you are black, you don't belong in a black neighborhood, it actually is pretty sad).
On the Douglas Line are the other 2 abandoned stations which are actually in the town of Cicero. They are 50th St. and Laramie. Both are at street level just north of Cermak Rd. so they would be very easy to take pictures of. The Green line HAD plenty of abandoned stations all along the line which were: Homan and Halsted on the west side - 58th, State, Wentworth, Harvard, Racine, 61st, University, Dorchester, and Jackson Park on the south side. All of these were demolished though during the Green Line reconstruction.
About the Robert Talylor Homes, these and all of the other CHA high rise complexes are in the process of being torn down but plenty of them still remain.
Are you in Chicago and have you toured these sites?
Are they tearing down the taylor Homes, or just closing them and boarding them up?
What's happening with Henry Horner a problematic situation in West chicago as well as Cabrini Greene?
Are they tearing down the taylor Homes, or just closing them and boarding them up?
Many of them are already closed and boarded up (in Robert Taylor as well as Stateway Gardens just to the north), and they're slowly being demolished. New upper-income housing developments are spreading southward from the Loop, but it will be years before it ever reaches down to 35th Street (where Stateway Gardens begins). For this reason, and also the fact that there's just so damn many buildings to take down, I suspect Robert Taylor Homes and Stateway Gardens will be among the last CHA high-rises to be demolished.
What's happening with Henry Horner a problematic situation in West chicago as well as Cabrini Greene?
Most of the high-rises at Henry Horner have been or will soon be demolished, and low-rise public housing is being built on the site to replace many of the demolished housing units. With the construction of the new United Center, the surrounding neighborhood is beginning to see the first signs of new development after years of disinvestment, but don't expect to see a Starbucks in the area anytime soon.
The situation at Cabrini-Green is a little more complicated because the project sits in the midst of a rapidly-gentrifying area that is seeing booming real estate development; Cabrini-Green is quickly becoming an ever-smaller island surrounded by expensive luxury townhouses. If the city had its way, Cabrini-Green would be gone tomorrow, but some of the residents aren't going away quietly. Lawsuits by neighborhood activists have stalled much of the demolition at Cabrini-Green, although a number of the high-rises are vacant and boarded up. Meanwhile, new upper-income housing continues to be built ever closer to Cabrini-Green, and the City of Chicago continues to put on the squeeze. (A large new police station is currently under construction directly across the street from three of the worst buildings. The City's message is clear that it's not a matter of if Cabrini-Green will come down, but when.)
And to where are all these displaced residents being relocated, you ask? Why, they're being given Section 8 vouchers and a one-way ticket to the suburbs. Brilliant strategy on the city's part, I must admit. Once they're out in the 'burbs, they become somebody else's problem. Almost poetic justice in my view, since most of Chicago's suburbs are the products of white flight from the city 40 years ago by people who simply couldn't stand the idea of a black person living on their block, and such flight created a viscious cycle that led to much of the city's grinding poverty. My only complaint is that these residents are being sent to the already-poor South Suburbs and not to Naperville or Schaumburg. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
Will the CHA be dissolved, or will there still be low-rise housing projects?
I don't see the CHA going away anytime soon. It will be years (decades?) until the last of the high-rises come down, and there will always be a need for some sort of public housing in Chicago. Most of it will probably be in the form of low-rise townhouses as well as mixed-income developments, in addition to a shift toward Section 8 vouchers (which the CHA does the administration for). Also, the CHA has a number of high-rises throughout the city dedicated to senior citizen housing, and there's really no pressing need to replace these with low-rise housing, since most gangbangers don't live long enough to become senior citizens.
-- David
Boston, MA
"Also, the CHA has a number of high-rises throughout the city dedicated to senior citizen housing, and there's really no pressing need to replace these with low-rise housing, since most gangbangers don't live long enough to become senior citizens."
Interesting analogy.If it wasn't for the war on drugs, gangbangers, the influx of weapons we would not be spending our tax dollars to tear down and rebuild housing for the poor.
50 years ago housing projects around the country was a beautifull concept. Today they are the shame of a country, a taxepayer's nightmare a governemnt missmanaged fiasco draining and affecting everything around them. just like a cancer!
>>> 50 years ago housing projects around the country was a beautifull concept. Today they are the shame of a country <<<
Marty;
If building low income housing projects was a beautiful concept, it was not a realistic concept. Once the large projects went up, it was said that "you could take the people out of the slums but you could not take the slums out of the people".
With 20/20 hindsight you can see why the projects had to fail. Only poor people were allowed to live there. Once a family's income increased to a minimum level, the family had to move. Therefore by design the projects were and remained poor neighborhoods. The middle class designers of the projects assumed that the inhabitants would have their middle class values concerning respect of private property and pride of having a nice place to live. That did not happen.
No doubt the majority of inhabitants of the high rise projects were honest people struggling to make a living, but poor areas have always been the breeding grounds for crime, and now the poor areas were made much more dense than any of the tenement neighborhoods. Crime became so rampant that the honest people were afraid to cooperate with authorities because of fear of retaliation. Since the whole project was uniformly poor, the children growing up there never saw middle class role models. The best of the inhabitants did improve themselves financially and therefore left the projects, so in accord with reverse Darwinian theory the projects became more and more the residence of the unfitest..
The post project era social engineering recognizes the folly of putting so many poor people together, and tries to spread them among the general population with Section 8 housing vouchers, and much lower density housing projects with sliding rent scales which will allow lower middle class persons to live there as well as the poor. This way the poor get to see and interact daily with those that are earning enough to maintain middle class values. It is hoped that these values will be passed on to the poor causing them to see that there can be a better life than accepting welfare payments and watching TV.
Tom
Marty -
Please contact me directly via email or phone (732) 578-0748, I have been trying to reach you but your email is bouncing, am leaving for Canada early Monday and will be in Montréal the 20th and 21st.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm flying in Wednesday night from Baltimore. My plans call for a RECON on Thursday morning (whereby I ride every portion of the line I intend to include in my book and photograph prospective sites for street level observations from trackside). I have an appointment with the CTA Librarian at the Merchandise Mart on Friday morning who has graciously offered to try and get me an appointment with Bruce Moffat of CERA (author of that fabulous book on the Chicago "L"). Though CERA ultimately chose not to publish "Rolling Thunder", Moffat did go to the trouble of having it reviewed by CERA's Board of Directors and for that I am grateful.
Eric Dale Smith
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with the Chicago Police Department, and I'm even more sorry that it has impacted the way you feel about the city itself. Chicago is a beautiful city with a lot to offer, and it's unfortunate that this incident was at least partly responsible for your decision to leave. I lived in Chicago for seven years and recently moved to Boston because of school, and not a day goes by that I don't wish I was back home. I think it's the city's loss as much as yours that you felt you had to leave.
My own experience may be unique, but all the cops I had to deal with were very courteous and professional. But then, I'm a fairly clean-cut white guy who lived in a heavily-yuppified neighborhood where the biggest crime problem was illegal parking. Hell, I could have been the son of an alderman or a young attorney for a clout-heavy law firm for all the cops knew. I'm sure my perspective would be lot different if I were a minority and/or living in a high-crime area.
(I might add that I have spent a bit of time in some rather squalid Chicago neighborhoods either photographing the L, doing some general exploring, or merely passing through on my way from Point A or Point B. I never had a problem with any of the cops, and it was very rare that I ever had a problem with any neighborhood locals.)
I don't mean to open a can of worms here on this board. However, I don't think it's fair to condemn the entire CPD based on the actions of a couple of rouge cops. I'm sure Anthony Diallo, Rodney King, or that guy in Philly would tell you there are bad cops in every city.
It's no secret in Chicago that the cops tend to be a bit heavy-handed, and have the habit of shooting first and asking questions later (sometimes literally). That's the way it has always been in Chicago and the way it will probably always be. But most Chicagoans are able to sleep better at night knowing that the crack dealers and gangbangers are getting similar treatment as you got, and are thankful that city neighborhoods actually still exist where illegal parking really is the biggest crime problem.
By no means am I defending the cops' actions towards you specifically nor police brutality in general, but I'm a firm believer in the saying "You can't make an omlette without cracking a few eggs." Such heavy-handedness may not be pretty, but I think it's a big part of the reason why Chicago remained a livable, vibrant city while Los Angeles was burning and New York was crumbling.
-- David
Boston, MA
Since the 9 and Z are only rush hour trains, why aren't they in diamond shapes instead of circles? Or on the other hand, why couldn't they be the diamond 1 and J? You don't see diamond 4 or 5 trains named diffrent numbers, even though they are only rush hour and make different stops than their circle counterparts. Why should the 9 and Z be treated differently?
The 9 and Z are skip stop routes, alterating stations with the 1 and J. That's why they get differnent designations, so people won't get on the wrong No. 1 or J train and go shooting past their stop.
Trains like the No. 5 Lexington Ave. Thru Express or the No. 6 Pelham Express are designated to that passengers know where those trains are going to stop before they board, which negates the need for a different number designation.
Oh, ok. So the only thing diamond signs are for is to tell that the terminal will be diffrent than the corresponding circle route? I know that the 9 and Z were skip stop, but since they still have the same terminals, they just use a circle instead of a diamond. Is this right?
Actually, when created, both routes ran all day weekdays.
They were cut back to Rush Hours in 1994.
The 9 ran all day weekdays, but hasn't the Z always been rush-hours only?
Also, the 9 runs both ways during both rush hours (due to the nature of the line it has to), while the Z runs only in the peak direction, right? Do the 1 and 9 operate skip-stop in the counter-peak direction?
I agree that the 9 and Z really ought to be in diamonds, but it would mess up the graphical symmetry of the signs - and of poster (1) South Ferry (9)'s logo - if they were. (The circles with the two smaller circles and slash inside were cute, but I think new signs aren't using them anymore.) But since the roll signs on the cars all have circles for these lines, I guess it makes sense to leave things as they are, and let a diamond sign mean a "modified for rush hour" route.
What does this mean? Do they deadhead while going 1 direction?
The Z operates in the rush hours. It operates skip stop service in the peak direction, all stops in the off peak direction.
The maps and service guides SAY the "Z" is one-way, but it is really otherwise - they do run revenue trains back from Broad in the AM; they run local and terminate at Eastern Pkway. I am not sure how they run this in the PM rush. Perhaps they run "Z"s out of ENY Yard to Broad.
They did the exact same thing with the "KK"/"K" service when it ran.
wayne
Most PM rush Z trains run light after terminating at Jamaica Center, to the ENY yard. 2 Z trains can be laid up east of Jamaica Center, and these 2 trains run in revenue service in the late afternoon into Manhattan.
Z trains operate in both directions during the rush hour period. However, in the opposite peak direction, it's a total local. Basically, they're J trains with signs set to Z to facilitate quick turn arounds for peak direction service.
I don't know about the J/Z, but the 1/9 does run skip-stop in both directions.
I have two maps from 1994. The earlier map shows the service (in both cases) as rush hours and middays. The later one shows rush hours only.
1/9 skip stop service ran 6:30AM to 8PM all day from it's inception in August 1989 to June 1994.
The 9 runs in both directions but I'm not sure if it is skip-stop in both directions. The Z is peak-direction only and I'm not sure what it does to get back in the opposite direction. My guess is that it runs as the J.
Seems to me that it would make sense to use diamonds for the skip-stop service. Then if a "J" or "1" train came along around the edge of rush hour, you wouldn't have to wonder (or look at your watch to decided) if this is a skip-stop or all-stop train.
-- Ed Sachs
I've been saying this for years: all skip-stop J trains should set their bulkhead signs to the diamond J to show it's skipping stops.
This is another one of those times that digital signs would work.
The CTA here in Chicago seems to have mastered the art of Roll Signs on an entire train which can all be changed together by the TO. Why can't New York?
-- Ed Sachs
Why bother with a more maintenance intensive, unreliable technology?
Because rollsigns are easier to read and more versatile than electronic signs.
They might be easier to read (not necessarily), but they are certainly not more versatile than electronic signs.
I agree. You can program in thousands of different combinations into electronic signs that would be impractical for mechanical rollsigns. Several trains during the 1986-88 Manhattan Bridge closure had to use incorrect terminal signs because they lacked the proper ones:
M: 36th Street as opposed to Ninth Ave (although the R16's had the Ninth Ave sign)
S: Special as opposed to Grand St.
B (6th Ave.) Bay Parkway as opposed to 34th St.
D (6th Ave) Brighton Beach as opposed to 34th St.
The J also ran with signs saying Queens Blvd. well past the cutback to 121st. St. When 121 St. signs first started to appear, they weren't needed, as the Archer Ave. line opened. So digital signs are much more versatile.
I think the diamond just means "express"
That's not correct. The diamond means it's a service that only runs during rush hours. While it may be an express, it may not -- the M to Bay Pky is certainly no express, nor was the rush hour R on Nassau St.
Not to play devil's advocate, but the '6' and '7' expresses, which are depicted by diamonds, are NOT just rush-hour services, although they used to be. The Pelham and Flushing lines are three tracks, and the middle (express) track is in service to Manhattan from AM rush hour all the way through the morning to noon, and from Manhattan from noon all the way through the afternoon to the end of the PM rush (about 8:00 PM).
However, the peak-hour reverse-at-midday express between Marcy and Myrtle is shown on Le Map with the 'J' correctly shown in a circle.
When this type of express service was reintroduced to the Flushing line after a twenty-year absence, TA literature crowed that there was "all day express service". Yes, in one direction or the other depending on time of day, but not in both directions all day. Talk about fudging!
Well, the R29-33-36 cars that run on the 6 and 7 lines don't have route signs with numbers higher than 7, so calling the 7 express an 11 train isn't anytime in the near future, unless they replace the R36 cars with R62 cars, or if a post-R142 A-Div car has the capability to show routes with 2-digit numbers.
Well we might see the 11 train, because it seems as though R62A's are headed from the 3 and 6 to the 7 once enough R142A's enter service on the 6.
When did the 7 start all day express service again?
I think it started a couple of years ago. I just hope the start of the 11 line as the Flushing Experess doesn't bring a whole lot of Slurpee jokes with it.
OH THANK HEAVEN FOR THE FLUSHING 7/11( CAPS ON PURPOSE)
We 9's tend to be... Unique.
Number 6305, to be precise. It was a case of being in the right place at the right time. I got on a Bronx-bound 1 at Houston Street about five this evening, heading up to Penn Station. At 14th, I saw an express pulling into the station almost at the same time and decided to switch. Lo and behold, I realized that it was a train of R142's on the 2 train. I somehow managed to squeeze on - not easy, lemme tell you - and rode up to Penn. I didn't have the time to ride any farther, unfortunately.
My impressions? It was hard to see too much of the interior given the massive overcrowding. But the illuminated strip map was a nice touch, and the automated announcement was cool. I liked the way it alternated between a man's and a woman's voice. And it goes without saying that the emergency notification button was an excellent touch, although I stand by my belief that NYCT should be forced to retrofit all existing trains immediately.
Well, today I downloaded a copy of the MSN Messenger. One of the features included a free built-in phone that allows you to call anywhere in the US & Canada for free. Well, this evening, after talking with a friend in Florida, I thought, what number can I call to waste my time? Well, I decided to call the Travel Information Center. I was expecting to hear Ozzie Cruz, a higher pitched man, and a lower pitched man. All of a sudden, I hear this new deep voice. I keep saying to myself... I know this voice. Then I remembered, it was the same voice from the R142/R142A I rode not long ago. Well, I guess the TA decided, "Why just record him for the R142/R142A? Hell, record him for the Travel Information Center too!!!" Go check it out... (718)-330-1234
That's the...
running on...
's
discovery.
OH MY GOD, It is HIM! My Freakin' God, I felt like I was heading uptown on the R142A!
Trevor
I heard from a friend at the TA that he works for Bloomberg Radio. I'm going to see if I can get the job for the R-160 :-)
"Stand Clear of the Closing Doors; It will be sunny today with a high of 85."
And that's...
I just found out a few days ago that WBBR is totally automatic. The tape repeats unless there is breaking news, where the proceedure is not to go liuve, but to make a NEW TAPE!
-Hank
The next thing you know, they'll replace all the people with that computerized voice that you hear on NOAA weather radio.
The next thing you know, they'll replace all the people with that computerized voice that you hear on NOAA weather radio! :-)
Hey Todd, do you know the lad who does the announcements for Infinity Broadcasting networks with the somewhat deep voice. He does plugs for WFAN and the Howard Stern show here in NY. His voice would be nice for announcing "out of service" when the thirty day clock has to reset the next time.
Hmmm... I don't know the person, but I'll ask around.
There are a lot of broadcasters who do "voiceover work" as side income; it's very competitive!
I think it would be really nice if the NYCT found a true subway fan to do its voices (hint!)
Wouldn't it be annoying, though, to have yourself kick you out of the City Hall Loop?
The Daily News mentioned his name in an article about the trains, and that he works for Bloomberg 1130.
crank up the sound on your audio... i know what this place needs
okay... i quit being a comedian... i'm going to try my hand at being a dj... dj heypaul...
i can just see the eyes rolling up in people's heads now...
uhhhhhhh... this is subway related... the music you hear plays over the opening credits of a movie... the first frames in the movie show a 4 car old train ( low v, composite, i honestly don't know ) and then on the street old look bus #310, which doesn't really seem to be a new york city bus....
so dudes ( not just you steve ) and dudessess--- what film am i referring to and what do you know about it?????
did you say you wanted to hear that music again????
just in case you can't stand it, i'll make it a clickable link... are you ready??? are you down for the sound???
rock around the clock
i think i am finally cracking up
There were two contemporaneous movies that had Rock Around the Clock in it. The first was Blackboard Jungle with the young Sidney Poitier. The second was Rock Around the Clock.
I would guess the scene you describe was in the first film, as a setup for the urban tale, which was supposed to be set in a New York City high school. It just occurs to me that one of the most New York of films, West Side Story, did not contain a single subway scene.
"I would guess the scene you describe was in the first film, as a setup for the urban tale, which was supposed to be set in a New York City high school."
you would guess.... i want people who know... you guessed right, but i want details... i brought this movie up partly to remind kids that schools coming in another month or so... and definitely to remind the teachers amongst us, that they will have to start working for a living again...
but really, what kind of cars are seen in the opening scene?... is it new york?... karl b- get out your tapes and give the movie a look...
do you want to hear the music again????
[It just occurs to me that one of the most New York of films, West Side Story, did not contain a single subway scene.]
Not so surprising when you consider that all or almost all of the action took place in one small neighborhood. In other words, there weren't any subway scenes because no one was traveling anywhere.
Interesting factoid, the movie was filmed in the area now occupied by Lincoln Center, after the area's tenements had been condemned but just before the wreckers moved in.
Incidentaly, "Blackboard Jungle", introduced a very young Jamie Farr (Klinger from M*A*S*H) onto the silver screen.
Doug aka BMTman
yeah dougie... that's all very true... but i want info from all the subway and bus dudes out there about the train at the beginning and the elevated structure shown right before the beautiful "go down moses" singing in the middle of the movie...
you guys have to get with it... so once again
go out and rent the movie... it's a really grim depressing look at the school system with wonderful acting from glenn ford, sidney poitier, vic morrow, and maria ouspenskaya as maria the gypsy woman (oops, sorry, wrong movie )
Well Paul, you're not only a fellow 3 Stooges Fan but you know about the good 50's music, the real rock and roll [also rhythm and blues, its roots}.I haven't seen Blackboard Jungle in ages but I seem to remember an el in the beginning and references to it in the story. The only trains I know of that ran in 4 car sets on 3rd Ave, were the beloved MUDC's, those sad, nostalgic looking gate car conversions. I'll have to look for the movie again. On schools, as a Taft 61 graduate we didn't have many problems, but sadly by the 70's it was another story. IIRC "Jungle" was made in 1955.
ed... honestly, back in the 50's and 60's, i wasn't doing much rocking and rolling... but "rock around the clock" really hits me now... that would be great if you could take a look at the movie... hey, ed, i just looked at the scene again, and wow, the cars have no doors in the middle, but just end doors... i missed that fact totally... what i did notice, but did not recognize, is that every other car has some sort of insignia in the middle of the car below the window line...
one of my favorite lines in the movie is at the very beginning when glenn ford, the new teacher, gets hired by the principal of north manual high school.. the principal congratulates him, and asks him if he has any questions?... glenn ford says no, but as he is walking out, he asks about the discipline problem at the school?... the principal becomes quite upset, and says that there is no discipline problem at the school, especially with him as principal...
Guess I better try to see the show again. Now you opened a can of worms... there were no insignia on Man. El cars. There was a CTA logo in the middle of EACH Chicago car, they had a real hodgepodge in some of their trains; if it were steel 4000's they'd fit your description; there were also woods with end doors, some with gates, etc etc etc. You need to see "union Station'. If I have the right movie they refer to a fugitive seen boarding an elevated train; an IRT-el MUDC comes in wrong rail, there's a scene of the 3rd Ave. el, but all the onboard scenes are Pacific Electric!.
Hey Mister Deejay...
Got any big 80's up in this here shindig??
No, it's not the Schuylkill Valley Metro, the proposed light rail (um) commuter rail line to Phoenixville, Pottstown, and Reading. It consists of many things, one of which is the saddest line on the SEPTA city map - the line formerly known as the 49 and now as the 121. Why does this line exist?
It's also about the brand-new subway line, from southwest to northeast, along much talked-about corridors.
May I present: the Woodland-Roosevelt Subway!
One branch starts at Darby Terminal (connecting to 113, 114, etc.), and proceeds under the current route of Subway-Surface 11, stopping at "Colwyn Station" (at 4th Street), and meets the other branch at 72nd Street.
The other branch starts at the Airport terminals (which have a special fare) and replaces the R1 as far as Eastwick. It then turns onto Island Av and stops at Lindbergh and Elmwood.
The stops along Woodland Av are at 72nd, 65th, 58th, and 50th Streets. The line then turns onto Grays Ferry Av and stops at 28th Street, then at a Lombard/South station on 22nd Street. The station at Market allows free connections to the Subway-Surface lines.
The first station north of Market is at Pennsylvania Av. To avoid Girard College, the line makes a jog on Fairmount, 19th, Ridge, and resumes on 22nd. The stops on this portion are Jefferson/Master, York/Dauphin, Allegheny (near R6 and R7 stations), and Erie.
The line then turns northeast and stops at Hunting Park Station on the Broad Street line. The line then moves to Roosevelt Boulevard and stops at 5th Street, Rising Sun, Adams, Oxford, Magee, Cottman, and Rhawn.
And that's hardly everything I have to say: there are the Subway-Surface lines. First, with the above proposal, the #11 line will become less important. Then, there will be new lines: the #42 Spruce Street, the #30 Haverford Avenue, and the #51 to 54th Street and City Avenue! (drum roll)
The Broad Street Godfrey/Oak Lane stations... that's all I have to say on that one.
And now, the Mystery Lines: #14's segment between the Neshaminy and Oxford Valley Malls must have started as one of the set including 127-128-129-130. Did it? #22 once made diversions down Tyson Av, Rockwell Av, and Jacksonville Rd: was it then a (partial?) replacement for R2 Warminster service? The former #55 branch to a building at Turnpike Dr off of Davisville Rd? And the R8/R3 side branch: Cheltenham, Burholme, Rhawnhurst, Krewstown, Red Lion, Byberry, Linconia, Neshaminy Falls - was this *ever* used in revenue operation? And the line of Trenton, Fallsington, Woodbourne, North Langhorne, Lower Southampton, Southampton, Upper Willow Grove, Dresher, Whitemarsh, Plymouth Meeting, Norristown? Or the one of Oxford, Lincoln University, Kelton, West Grove, Avondale, Toughkenamon, Kennett Square, Mendenhall, Chadds Ford, Wilmington Pike, Concordville, Chester Heights, Lenni, although much of it is now abandoned?
More trash from another source, presented like it's gospel.
The poster has no e-mail address, so no private reply is possible.
I'm beginning to think that Dave should institute a mandtory e-mail rule. To post on SubTalk you must have a valid e-mail address. If a poster cannot reveal his personal address, then a valid free e-mail service can be used. No E-mail, no password.
Thoughts?
Dave has that requirement. He simply doesn't require it to be visible to the world, only to him. There are people who don't choose to post theirs for the rest of us to view, and that's their prerogative.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only problem is that encourages some posters to post pure drivel with no thought of direct (e-mail) contact/reply. This leads to exactly what started this thread - a trash posting that has absolutely no truth to it.
Dave has neither the time or the inclination to baby-sit this board.
People post "fantasy line" proposals all the time here - they have for as long as I've read the board. If you don't like it, don't read them.
I was watching the movie "The Warriors" and noticed that when they were at the Union Square station, there were pinball machines and other arcade games on the mezzanine level. Did this really used to exist? If so, was Union Square the only station that had these games?
Don't know about Union Square but 42nd st. on IND 8th aves. mezzanine level used to have pinball emporiums.
Peace,
ANDEE
I am happy to announce that O scale models of the PATH PA-4 cars will be produced in the near future.
Each model includes the carbody, complete underbody, and interior details (seats and motorman's cab).
The price per car is $150. If you are interested, please email mattm@mit.edu for information on reserving models.
Thanks.
I meant to post this last night but forgot. On Sunday one of those nice classic ex-Melbourne Trolleys on the Waterfront line in Seattle [the only trolley line there] "got away" coming into the south terminal at 5th Ave. S and S. Jackson. Hit the bumping block. Had a full load of 50 passengers with 22 injuries from being thrown. Investigation to find if car equipment or operator failed. Car number was 272 built in 1925. A nice comment from a transit official, made me feel good about the old stuff. Said the old cars held up better than the newer ones, they had a lot more craftsmanship. IMHO that's true. In the photo I saw I'd say the car was repairable. If the Seattle Post-Intelligence has a website you might be able to find the article I read.
>>> the old cars held up better than the newer ones <<<
Ed;
Perhaps the lack of any "crush zone" on the older equipment added to the 22 injuries among the passengers. If you hit something hard with a 1925 automobile at 25 mph there would be far less damage to the vehicle than a new car, but the occupants would be subjected to higher deceleration forces.
Tom
Actually i watched that PBS Nova special about the history of automobile safety and they had footage of a crash tent of a 1922 Dodge and the thing just disintegrated because it was just a wooden frame covered in sheet metal. It wasn't untill the 40's and 50's that automotive engineering improved to the point where in an accident would gooify the people inside while leaving the car almost undamaged.
My '38 Chevy was built like a tank. You could sand away 1/8 inch of metal to smooth out a dent and still have plenty of metal remaining. Fortunately I wasn't involved in any accidents with it; it would have demolished any new '59 to '61 car on the road. (that's when I was driving it)
Don't you miss old cars? In our 4th of July parade they had a bunch of 30's "Great Gatsby" Packards. Those cars were so cool. Are old cars to new cars as old subway trains to new subway trains?
When I was living in Elmont, there was an accident along Meacham Avenue (at Sun Avenue) between a 1948 Buick Road_Master and a 1962? Dodge Dart; the Dodge was pushed off the street up the curb and into the Jack's Town Tavern, where it surprised a few patrons sitting at the bar. The Dodge was crumpled up like tin foil and the Buick had nary a scratch. You should have seen the bumper on that Buick - solid Radiator Steel; cast iron perhaps.
wayne
My Dad bought a used 1948 Buick Roadmaster in the early 1950's. It had a straight 8 cylinder engine. It was a huge car and very heavy. Black, of course.
[When I was living in Elmont, there was an accident along Meacham Avenue (at Sun Avenue) between a 1948 Buick Road_Master and a 1962? Dodge Dart; the Dodge was pushed off the street up the curb and into the Jack's Town Tavern, where it surprised a few patrons sitting at the bar. The Dodge was crumpled up like tin foil and the Buick had nary a scratch. You should have seen the bumper on that Buick - solid Radiator Steel; cast iron perhaps.]
Wonder if the guys at Jack's kept on drinking ...
Anyway, they sure must've built those Buicks back then, as the Dodge Dart it squashed was a pretty tough car itself. Imagine what it would be like if that Buick were still around and tangled with one of your typical modern econoboxes. Crunch!
I'd say that would be, oh, the equivalent of a Triplex plowing into a wooden el car. No contest.
Hooray for Buicks. I've had my 56 Special 14 years now. Nothing like late 30's thru late 40's, but then the 50's cars had the beauty. I still like even newer Buicks but then the 50's were the years. What you described sounds like the R9 that hit an R40, or the old vs. new crash on the IC.
Yep, that Buick had to be built like a BMT standard. Steel, steel, and more steel.
Of course, that Roadmaster probably outweighed that Dodge by a ton or so.
My father's '53 Pontiac had a tank-like feel to it as well. One thing's for sure: if you punched a fender on one of those old timers, your hand would turn into a maraca.
Yes I remember a friend of mine had a 1937 Buick (bought for $50 in 62, wish it had been me!). Unfortunately he had a habit of being gassed himself and rammed an entire block of late model cars on Woodycrest Ave. in the Bronx.I looked at the car that he parked some distance from the scene of the wreckage. You'd never know it had been in an accident let alone bang up over a dozen cars. Nostalgia or not I guess there's enough engineering reports these days to confirm Old Tom's comments.
The operator was reported to have said that he "just couldn't
stop the car". A passenger claimed that the air brake system
warning bell (presumably this is some sort of low-air warning
that they have kluged onto the car) sounded several blocks before
the accident (probably the car was already on the downgrade).
What isn't clear is if the operator attempted to "plug" the car
to effect an emergency stop.
It may be purely coincidence, but the Melbourne Age reported last week that the remaining 53 W class trams/trolleys operational in Melbourne had been temporarily withdrawn pending investigation of brake faults. These trams are of the same generic class - W class - as the Seattle trolleys, but were built much later, probably in the 1940s to mid '50s and are very considerably modified. I'm not an expert on the W class trams that remain operational - or at least they were until last week - but while the Seattle trams would be class W2, the current Melbourne Ws would be mostly class W6 or W7. No theory has been advanced as to the cause of the brake failures.
Probably unrelated. The Seattle car had its compressor fused
changed a few weeks prior. Most likely, the fuse blew again,
the air went low, and the operator failed to notice this.
It may also seem that Seattle Metro doesn't train their operators very well. In case of no air, there's always reverse and full parallel. Might blow a motor, but the car will stop. That should be covered in basic streetcar.
Yes, as I said earlier in the thread, you'd think that if
the car is not responding to brakes on a steep grade you'd
plug it.
Are those W-2 trams 2 motor or 4 motor cars?
I've been sent another newsclipping by the party who sent me the original message. [Actually I thought I read in the original article that after the service brake failed the op tried plugging it, then dumped sand to help the stop] Kind of interpret that it was the driver; a low air alarm had gone off leaving operation at the "drivers" discretion, of course to make it to the end of the run you might be super careful. But then you might forget with disastrous results. Clipping said he didn't necessarily have to take the car o/s immediately if discretion would allow getting there OK.
W2s are four motors. I can't find at home my c. 1970 guide to Melbourne tram cars, but the Trams of Australia web sit linked to the nycsubway home page through through rail web sites/trolley,subway, light rail (http://www.railpage.org.au/tram/) tells me that, in Melbourne service at least, they were GEK35JJ motors, 4X30 kw
Thanks for the info. However note that K35JJ is the controller,
not the motor model #.
Metro hardly has any full-time operators left ---- because of 695 (an initiative that cut car tabs to 30 dollars and thus also cut transit money), metro laid off a bunch of fulltimers and go parttimers instead. i know where that is, the tram would've been going uphill. besides the streetcars hardly every go more than 10-12mph anyway. perhaps the guy was not fully there, like what happened on the 4 so many years ago...
I was looking at the brake handle of an R32(3356) and it said running release, and then Snow brake. What is the snow brake and what is it used for?
Apparently, a brake that is used on outdoor runs when there's snow/ice on the tracks. :-)
I'd guess it applies the brakes more slowly/gently than the regular ones so the train doesn't slide along slick rails...possibly using a principle like antilock brakes on cars.
I believe that the snow brake keeps the friction brake pads applied to the subway train wheels at a light pressure at all times, even while the train is in motion.
The reasoning behind that comes from a passage in an instruction booklet from around 1986-1990 detailing the proceedures for running the subway (Toronto) in wintertime. During snowy conditions, train crews were instructed to turn the snow brake switch to on - but that only applied to the newer subway cars. The instructions for the older Gloucster type subway cars differed because they didn't have a snow brake function, so crews operating those trains were instructed to keep 5 pounds of brake pressure on at all times, in the absence of a snow brake switch. I think that the snow brake duplicates the 5 pounds of brake pressure in a somewhat similar fashion.
-Robert King
What this does is both create friction on the wheels, which heats them to keep the water that gets on them from freezing into ice.
-Hank
It's just a detent that keeps the brake handle in the slightly-applied
position, about 5 psi of straight air pressure, nominal. When
running outdoors in snow conditions, motormen are instructed to
run with the brakes in SNOW BRAKE instead of RELEASE, which keeps
a little brake dragging and keeps the wheels hot so ice doesn't
freeze onto them and create skidding. Some cars have a separate
snow brake switch.
lirr M-1's have that swicth. they seal them so they don't get set when not needed
No NYCT cars had that feature until the R44, and it was a carryover from the LIRR M-1. Up until the time of those cars brake shoes were cast iron and heated up with use.So there was no problem with ice build up [normally.] They found out on the LIRR that the composition shoes in snow caused the unhappy problem of running by stations, since they don't heat up unless applied for some time. So from the R44 on, with composition shoes the snow brake feature was included NOT to be used in tunnels. Since all the rebuild equipment including the R32 has likely been converted to composition shoe [likewise a lot of older freight cars were converted too] that would be why the snow brake feature was added.
What about the width of the platform? I start at 67th Ave and change at Queens Plaza if I need the express. It often is dangerously crowded and to me is the #1 problem. Would this be in a plan?
As someone who deals with visitors to NYC I think the upstairs passageways to the Q-33 To LGA needs to be addressed. This is the last vestige of the Subway that many visitors use. I guess riding the Q-33 should make the station look good in comparison!!!
Changing the width of the platforms would require realigning the tracks, and obviously require shutting them and the platforms down while they're being worked on. It's probably not possible (or at least financially viable) to move the tracks any longer because of buildings that have gone up since the line was built. Even if it could be done, people would go postal because of the disruptions.
...disruptions...
Yeah, like everything express in one direction? Damn, people will really be pissed and surprised at that. (hint: We've been doing it every weekend and night for the past 6 years). Also, they could probably erect a few crossovers just before the station to shift trains over for Roosevelt only. Or, if that's not possible, a few trains could stop at the local stops on the express track (except Steinway, 46, Northern) and use bridge plates, or park flat cars there and attach smaller bridge plates.
Yesterday at 8:10pm the Roosevelt ave station Queens-bound platforms on the IND were quite crowded, due to delays in service.
I had a quick one-day trip to NYC today (going away party for a long-time colleague at WCBS). From LGA, I took the M-60 to the N (R-32). Coming home, it was the E to Roosevelt for the Q-33.
At the Roosevelt Avenue station, I noticed that nearly all of the shops in the mezzanine were closed (there used to be an arcade, a shoe repair, a jewler, an H&R Block, etc.). In addition, both the newsstant and the small coffee shop ajacent to the Q-33 boarding lane were closed. Perhaps the landlord is letting all of the leases expire in anticipation of the renovation that was the subject of the first message in this thread? I didn't have time to walk inside to the Nathan's or OTB to see if they were still operating.
I imagine this will be an interesting and disruptive renovation -- where will all of the Triboro Coach buses terminate during the construction? It's not as if there's a lot of real estate or roadway around to take up the slack!
The Q19B and 47 won't have a problem; they can just terminate at the dropoff point, 73rd St. and 37th Rd., and turn directly onto 74th St, the route. It's even on the rollsign!
Yes, I know this belongs on BusTalk, ummm... I was on the R142 today.
Nathan's at Roosevelt Ave is out of business. There were on the list of dirtiest restaurants and most failed health inspections, so they shut down.
This is getting popular,
CLERKS NAILED ALTERING MC's
Peace,
ANDEE
I was wondering how TA's handle the double or tripple volume during the 2 peak periods every day. They they force ppl to work OT? Do they have a 4th shift in order to get overlap from 7-9 and 4-7? Do they have a special shift that works the morning, goes home, then comes back?
Here in DC, it appears that they do have a shift that goes home and then comes back for I have heard several operators working both morning and evening rush hours.
Back in Philly , many operators work a real early morning shift, say 5:00 am to 9:30. Then they "swing" ( do not work ) until around 3 pm
and then until 7:00. Some runs are calculated for 10 hrs. or more,
giving the guys some overtime. If you hang around the depot during your swing , and get buddy-buddy with the dispatch guy, he'll give you
a mid-day run. My friend Al,a bus driver, worked 7 days a week doing this, and boasted he made $21,000 a year back in the early 1980's. I guess that was good money back then?
Chuck Greene
a few year ago i saw ad from njt for part bus drivers to drive to nyc and go work. in pm they pick up their buses for the trip home.
NYCT had swings on the IND until the 1967 BMT-IND merger, thankfully they were then abolished. (Don't know when the IRT got rid of theirs)Jobs were set up so that some did a full day on the road, such as 3-E to Hudson Term, 2 F's, 2-D's etc 4-LL's that did a full 8 hours, more or less. Other jobs were part time road and part time yard [drill, transfer cars] many of which offered nice early quits. I would guess at this time in history even the "T/C" is set up so everyone does a days work, let's say you make one F or D trip then do yard, switching, or transfer work , enough to fill 8 hours? That way the extra rush hour trip are manned, likewise an occasional part time "special" that paid 4 1/2 hours; I'm going back about 25 yers.
"Specials" are gone. To fill up an eight-hour day, some runs have what is called WAA -- "Work As Assigned."
David
In NYC the A.M. shifts start at 4:00 till about 11:00 giving coverage for the morning and evening rush: eg. 4-12, 11:00-7:00. The P.M. crews report from noon till about 6:30 covering the P.M. rush and midnight crews reporting from about 10:30 P.M. till 3:00 A.M. to help cover the A.M. rush.
Here in Boston we use a mix of full time and part-time operators. The part timers work Mon-Fri, 6hrs a day, with a rather long midday swing. The full day is called a "spread", it can be up to 11 hours (or longer, but then the hourly rate goes up). Some of the part time runs involve only one trip for a piece of work. You may do a supplemental (school) trip in the AM, then report back in the PM for a few rush hour trips on a regular route.
The full timers are in the same boat, but generally the work is set up a little tighter (the spread is shorter, midday swings are shorter). Most runs are still 9-10 hour spread, and pay about 8 hours. Sundays are all short spreads. Some runs are "straight" 8 hours. If the midday lunch/break time is less than 30 mins, the operator is on the clock from report time to relief time. These runs are considered very desirable, high seniority. Normally the midday swing is unpaid.
There are also swing-on allowances and penalties for work that reports between 2AM and 4:10 AM.
Everyone here is Amalgamated Local 589, except of course supervisors (other locals) and management, which is nonunion for now but most likely in the process of changing (except at the highest levels).
The moral of the story is that the "peaking" of transit ridership is a major reason why transit systems don't operate at a profit.
(The moral of the story is that the "peaking" of transit ridership is a major reason why transit systems don't operate at a profit.)
Hence the justification for limiting future fare increases to peak periods (and unlimited ride cards) until a substantial off peak discount is in place.
Question is in the subject line but more specifically, if I were to ride from Airport to Buckingham (or something along those lines, it is in the north part of the city) do they have any cars with a good view?
They have tranverse cabs. Similar to DC Metro cars, the glass isn't tinted or anything, so you can still get a good view ahead. The East line has a great view of the city between Georgia State and King Memorial. There are some other good views on the North-South line, too. Also, you probably meant going fron the airport to Buckhead, Buckingham Palace is in London :)
I've never been to Atlanta so I am not one who would know. As far as I'm concerned, my excellent memory would probably remember the station name once we got on the subway and tried to get to our destanation.
Understand that there are three MARTA stations in the Buckhead area: Lindbergh Center, Buckhead, and Lenox. Four, if you count Brookhaven. Make sure you know the location of where you are staying and the nearest stop, so you get off at the right station.
Buckingham Road is near the Brighton Line.
Not Atlanta, but not London either.
Buckingham Road is also in Los Angeles 90008, and in Sydney Australia
thats right ! hell no they do not have a railfan window !!
is the wahsington d c tramsverse cab all the way across the front ??
A brief article in today's Star-Ledger describes a situation that occurred yesterday morning on a North Jersey Coast Line train sitting in the tunnel under the Hudson River waiting for clearance into Penn Station when smoke from burning leaves caught in the wheels got into the train and lights and AC went off.
Intresting move on the TA once more.
Awhile ago there was a rash of 68ft cars (mostly N drivers) punch wrong at court street and ending up going to Broad St.
So instead of the new "KNOW YOUR LINEUP" signs with color illustrations of the correct homeball signal, they removed the punch for Broad Street at the 10 car stop marker and a large sign stating you can't punch for that here.
So I assume that we will never have a 10 60ft cars going that way?
Why not default the line up to Broadway and only have the M drivers punch to change?
At least they didn't install MS Windows with a confirm punch button!!!
Does this mean that an M following an N or R can't punch for Broad Street if the leading train is still between Court and the switch? Doesn't that limit the capacity of the tunnel? If not, how is it set up so that the new punch allows enough time for the leading N or R train to make it thru the tunnel to the switch?
If the M punches at Court St and there is a train in the tube ahead, whether it's an M,N,orR, the home signal at the north end of Court St will clear. When you punch at Court St, it automatically registers with the home signal at the Montague St cut. The elimination of the M punch at Court St(10 car marker), is to prevent wrong lineups. There were no signal modifications in the area. Occassionally, if City Hall Tower has any doubts about a train properly punching at Court St,they can hold you behind the home signal at the cut( An M train could punch for the N/R at Court St. This rarely happens though.)
I don't think that turnout is on automatic. The punch at Court
Street lights an indicator at City Hall tower, and the tower
operator makes a note of which way the train wants to go, then
changes the line up as soon as the first train is off the circuit.
That is intresting, so not only was the N train T/O's making a mistake, the City Hall tower did as well unless they don't know what train is what when the N's went to Broad.
To avoid this at Van Wyck Blvd, the KNOW YOUR LINEUP is in the form of a scrolling digital sign on the wall (or at least I remember it flashing that, I only get a brief glimpse because I'm usually near the back and running to school).
Can anyone tell me the reasons modern transit projects cost so much more than those back in the day? Is it due primarily to labour, materials, hi-tech rolling stock, property vaules, safety standards, lawyers, studies or just simply waste? Is there anything that can be done to lower costs and speed construction like use Mexicans or existing RoW's. I also noticed a modern trend away from steel and I-beam's in transit construction to a more concrete based consturction. Is this faster or just cheaper?
Most transit projects cost more mostly due to the aquisition costs of the ROW. By thier very nature, they are built in densely populated areas. In many cases, there may be existing infrastructure that has to be maintained, thus more cost. Add to this the safety, lawyers, and etc., plus inflation, and you get the picture.
As for the steel vs. concrete thing, are you referring to elevated or subway construction? Concrete is definitely more prevalent in subways, but for elevated construction, both are competitive. In fact, some projects are designed with "alternates" where contractors can submit prices for either the steel or concrete versions, and the low bid wins.
Not to mention that subway construction itself has changed considerably since the building of the original 1904 IRT route. And that old bugaboo, inflation.
Well in most of the old cut n' cover subway tunnles built up to about 1950 the bases and walls are filled in with concrete, but the stuctural frame is made of I-beams. Not to mention the center supports are usually just a wall of bare I-beams. But in newer subway tunnels like the DC Metro, the Philly Commuter tunnel and the LA Metro it is made out of like 100% reinforced concrete. Although they are both just as strong, the concrete structures are much more massive.
Essentially subways are still built that way, but the steel isn't I-beams, it's reinforcing bar. As for the exposed columns, it's probably more of a safety issue; the concrete is there as a crash barrier in most cases, and with the proper design, may not even be necessary to support the roof, and may not, so that if the wall was breached in an accident, the roof wouldn't come down.
The DC Metro is mostly shield driven tunnels, which is why they have a circular shape. The LA Metro is partly cut & cover, partly shield driven. The Baltimore Metro is 90% shield driven, 10% rock tunnel.
As to costs, enviromental studies cost many $$$. The Feds and the States all have environmental studies for new transit projects. This alone adds 15-20% to the total cost of construction.
Why so much cost?
It justifies huge authority bureaucracies and consultant budgets. And fiscal contstraints from cheap politicians don't help either who spread out funding lest they upset other important political constituiencies like welfare bums and government employees and the medical establishment (do any of you besides Larry L. have any idea what ratholes NYC tens of billions of budget money are poured down annually???).
On the East Side Access project, what should be a 5 year project is being stretched out to 12. This means that many hundreds of millions of dollars will be spent on salaries for all of us working on it for many more years than necessary. A conservative guess is $350 to $400 million (about 12% of project cost).
Add in inflation over 12 years (at 4% per year, costs are 66% higher as a minimum by the end of the project).
And then throw in lots of wasteful manuevering and studies, reports, etc., etc. ad nauseum, wasting the time of various and sundry prior to project initiation (i.e. Feasability Studies, Major Investment Studies, Draft Environmental Studies, Final Environmental Studies, Preliminary Engineering).
The wave of the future which is cutting through a lot of this is Design-Build and Design-Build-Finance. On the BART airport extension, D/B is saving years and hundreds of millions in project cost because of contractor incentive to speed up construction. The whole $750 million, 8.7 mile project is being built by 1 contractor as opposed to the traditional "spread the gravy" method of up to several dozen different contractors, all of which of course need seperate oversight staff from the agency, intercontract coordination groups, etc. D/B/F is even more exicting a trend in that private equity partners like banks will front the construction money to a D/B consortium and will take payment over a longer period of time from the authority from sources such as future line revenue, yearly capital funds, etc.
Were there the political will to do so, a large subway extension such as the 2nd Ave Subway could be designed and built within about 6 years from now with a total staff of about 200 working on the project. This will does not exist because none of the interested parties (the MTA, engineering consultants, and construction contractors) have any incentive not to drag the project out as long as possible for maximum milking. Perhaps this is because NYCT has no real long range expansion plans despite their obvious need and the inadequacy of a 1920's era subway for a 2000 era city. We don't just need 2nd Ave. but 10th Ave., crosstowns on 34th St. and 125th St., service to the outer reaches of the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens, to the airports, etc. But you guys now that already ... I'm preaching to the choir.
Andrew Byler
>>whole $750 million, 8.7 mile project <<
uh the current numver is 1.5 Billion and rising. AND in order to cut the apparent cost overrun, they decided to believe they would somehow increase their MDBF so as not to need more cars to operate an increased schedule over a lengthened line. Got a bridge?
Just to tie this thread together with Larry's thread on the upcoming MTA bond issue vote, Dallas area voters passed a $2.9 billion bond issue to fund and addition 53 miles of light-rail construction. The issue passed by a 75-25 margin 12 years after a similar bond issue was defeated by voters, who didn't see why the city should spend any money on mass transit.
While most of the current line is on street ROW, the line up Central Expressway (the Gowanus of the Southwest) was build into the center medial, similar to the subway and el lines in Washington and Chicago.
It's nice to see people outside of the East Coast and S.F. finally figuring out you can't build highways forever. The link to the story is:
DART Financing Approved
That's 53 miles for $2.9 million. If we could actually get the 10 mile second avenue subway for $5 billion, I'd vote yes. But all we get is a few holes and a study, not for $4.2 billion but for $25 billion, with the last $4.2 billion options.
In Texas you get value for the buck. It's a simple as that.
"That's 53 miles for $2.9 million. If we could actually get the 10 mile second avenue subway for $5 billion, I'd vote yes. But
all we get is a few holes and a study, not for $4.2 billion but for $25 billion, with the last $4.2 billion options.
In Texas you get value for the buck. It's a simple as that."
But, IIRC, a lot of DART's extensions that just got voter approval use either abandoned rail ROW or expressway median, thus:
1) avoiding most of the land acquisition cost.
2) being a lot cheaper to build than either elevated or subway lines.
Surface extensions in less-dense areas are a hell of a lot cheaper than building subways (or elevateds) in the dense heart of the metro area, corruption or not, unions or not, NIMBYs or not.
For example, there's a proposal here in Chicago to operate a through O'Hare-Midway rapid transit route, with its major downtown station just below a new office building being built on Adams Street between State and Dearborn. Presumably the trains would use the Orange Line tracks from Midway, then switch to the Red Line subway tracks to Adams and State, then switch to the Blue Line at Adams & Dearborn for the trip to O'Hare. The only thing lacking is the actual tunnel and track connection between the Red and Blue lines (and the station facilities, of course). On that point, the skyscraper is just a hole in the ground right now, and from what I've read in the papers, the basement levels of the building are designed to accommodate the planned service. Despite using more than 99% existing trackage and with the open space for the missing connection designed into a building before it's built, the projected cost is still around $400 million. For a one-block "tunnel" and station facilities.
(Despite using more than 99% existing trackage and with the open space for the missing connection designed into a building before it's built, the projected cost is still around $400 million. For a one-block "tunnel" and station facilities.)
If we could get that one-block Rutgers/DeKalb connection (no station required) for less than $400 million, I'd say do it. In NYC, you not only get less value than you do on the surface in Dallas, you also get less value than you do underground in Chicago.
$1.5 billion is the pretend cost when you include the years of wasted effort "studying" the project, doing DEIS', making multiple alternatives and mistakes about how to enter the airport, paying people while the politicains bicker, multiple do-nothing oversight layers sleeping through meetings, etc. (I saw it all out there when I was working in the project office - I did the track, contact rail, and systems integration design). The *actual* final design and construction cost is around $750 million. Preliminary design and design/construction oversight could and should have used no more than $100 million. In other words, the whole project should have costed about $100 million per mile. And this for a subway system that is widely acknowledged to be gold plated. The excess money is what was still wasted despite using design/build and has little to do with building a subway and a lot to do with building political and engineering empires. Since that would have occurred anyway, that cost is fairly charged to BART overhead in my estimation.
Andrew Byler
[Were there the political will to do so, a large subway extension such as the 2nd Ave Subway could be designed and built within about 6 years from now with a total staff of about 200 working on the project. This will does not exist because none of the interested parties (the MTA, engineering consultants, and construction contractors) have any incentive not to drag the project out as long as possible for maximum milking. Perhaps this is because NYCT has no real long range expansion plans despite their obvious need and the inadequacy of a 1920's era subway for a 2000 era city. We don't just need 2nd Ave. but 10th Ave., crosstowns on 34th St. and 125th St., service to the outer reaches of the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens, to the airports, etc. But you guys now that already ... I'm preaching to the choir.]
All of which goes to prove my point that the biggest tragedy in modern NYC history happened when it did NOT go bankrupt during the fiscal crisis of the 1970's. Municipal bankruptcy would have ended the reign of the city's anencephalic political class and put the power into the hands of a municipal control board - whose members would have been answerable to almost no one and who probably wouldn't have hesitated to gore the city's sacred cows. NYC today might very well be like a successful Sunbelt city writ large, with a vastly downsized local government, low taxes and low levels of public services, a dynamic and hardworking population (the schmucks and losers would have gone elsewhere for their welfare), and economic growth second to none.
the red line subway in los angeles "THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE"
cost way to much built & over built instead of a simple system like baltimore's subway is some of the reasons why these transit projects cost too much overbuilt & too fancy & not workable !!
as for welfare reciepents i agree only with you on the corporate welfare types the working poor are the losers financing the rich elite !!!!!!!!
the red line subway in los angeles "THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE"
cost way to much built & over built instead of a simple system like baltimore's subway is some of the reasons why these transit projects cost too much overbuilt & too fancy & not workable !!
as for welfare reciepents i agree only with you on the corporate welfare types the working poor are the losers financing the rich elite !!!!!!!!
(NYC today might very well be like a successful Sunbelt city writ
large, with a vastly downsized local government, low taxes and low levels of public services, a dynamic and hardworking population)
If you'd live here, you'd realize we got the low level of public service and hardwork part. Very few cities, sunbelt or otherwise, would tolerate NYC public services, and surveys show NYC residents (those that do work) work longer hours than anywhere else. We didn't get the low taxes and dymanic part.
The new "welfare" population commutes in from the suburbs for the white welfare jobs, including those that make transit projects cost so much. Hire minority residents at a middle-class wage, and pay only those who actually show up and work, and construction would become a lot cheaper.
[surveys show NYC residents (those that do work) work longer hours than anywhere else]
I'd classify that statment with the following: surveys showed that passengers on the _Titanic_ (those who survived) said it was very luxurious.
What's wrong is that far too many NYC residents *don't* work. Labor-force participation rates are well below the national average, and even more to the point are below those of other major cities. This cannot be attributed to the city's persistently high unemployment rate, as persons actively looking for work count as participating in the labor force. Something else is going on. It is true that the city's welfare rolls are down substantially in the past few years. Yet labor-force participation rates haven't changed much if at all. It could be that NYC has large number of persons working in the "underground" economy, below the bean-counters' radar scopes. It sounds logical, but keep in mind that other big cities - which presumably also have active underground economies - have much higher participation rates. NYC also may have large numbers of perfectly healthy people who avoid having to work, and circumvent welfare restrictions, by fraudulently claiming to be disabled: "It's something in my back." "I have asthma/high blood pressure/diabetes etc." Or the favorite old standby, "I'm too stressed out to hold a job."
the nightmare called the los angeles red line subway THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE !!! is the reason(s) why the costs are too high overbuilding too fancy stations digging too damn deep waste & spend & you have it Cost too much ( overbudget )
the solution........build LOTS of LIGHT RAIL AT GRADE and do it CHEAPLY. Geez even the expensive LRAGs don't cost much more than 42million/mile
>>> build LOTS of LIGHT RAIL AT GRADE <<<
Although this solution might work in suburban areas, it is no solution for congested downtown areas. There must be separation between street traffic and rail in urban areas, or there will be no speed advantage for the rail systems. Without a speed advantage you will not entice riders from cars.
Tom
Successful light rail has used existing, grade separated, abandoned tracks. Makes it cheap and good. NYC has such tracks in very few places.
if you have seen how baltimore atlanta etc did not overbuild no fancy stations that look like movie museums !! stations too deep too costly & why didnt the los angeles rail system run above grade and at grade when & where it was possible ?? Like running the blue & green line type cars along the freeways like it once did back in the PE cars era ??
THEY SHOULD HAVE LEFT WELL ENOUGH ALONE THE RAIL SYSTEM WE ONCE HAD!!
( sorry about the large letters )
also check out my photos
http://phots.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
check out all four 4 of my albums of this missed oppertunity here in
los angeles ( the pico BLUE LINE station wiil not be used for the DEMONCRATIC COONVENTION ) "" i spelled convention right !!!
thanx ...........SalaamAllah
You said it. The PE went to almost evry suburb , much like NYCT covering so many outlying neighborhoods. Worse come to worse do light rail and the rails go underground a la Philadelphia downtown. The PE did a fine job but of course circumstances changed; so they let it go and now they find out too late and costly.
The PE did a fine job but of course circumstances changed; so they let it go and now they find out too late and costly.
The PE would've STAYED IN BUSINESS except it was BOUGHT OUT BY GENERAL MOTORS. They converted the lines to bus and then BURNED over 1000 PCCs (over a THOUSAND trolleys) so that no one could rebuild them. They did the same thing in SF, bought out the Key System (which had several trunk lines that all used the bay bridge and then forked out into various parts of the east bay, in addition the Key had over 100 different streetcar lines, most of which became AC transit bus routes after the Key was killed by GM. GM was found guilty in a court of a bunch of stuff and the judge sentenced them to pay a fine of something like 5,000 dollars - NOTHING - many speculate the judge was payed off by GM. That was "progress" for you - it's not the PE's fault, and it's not LA's fault either, neither wanted to part with the big red cars. Blame GM.
Actually PE was bought by the Southern Pacific, they sold their passenger service to Metro. Coach Lines. A lot of PE Cars went to Argentinia is So America for Interurban Lines around Buenos Aires.
GM had a controlling interest in PE, and their president was a puppet. GM burned over a thousand PCCs but you are right. PE cars weren't the only ones shipped to Argentina - Ex-Key System Bridge Units are still in service in Buenos Aires.
& was killed by all of the diesel & gasoline MFG companies all of the oil diesel & gasoline companies the car van truck companies all who insist that free right of way independent mass transit rail systems are all inferior & useless & THE BUS IS THE BEST WAY TO GET AROUND!!
ha ! ha !ha! ha! ha! ha !!! the greatest HOAX ever told !!!!! also you can see the PE cars at the orange empire museum in peris california go see these beautiful GIANTS !!
see my rail transit pics i shot ...
href=http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications"
sorry know how to highlight this as of yet but i am learning !!
thankz salaam allah.......
>>> GM had a controlling interest in PE, and their president was a puppet. GM burned over a thousand PCCs <<<
What is your source of information? It is my understanding that PE sold off their unprofitable passenger service to concentrate on profitable freight hauling, just like eastern railroads. And although GM may have burned over a thousand PCCs it certainly was not from the PE. The PE had relatively few PCCs, used on one line. Most of their stock was the larger "Hollywood" cars that they manufactured, and the big red cars for which they are famous, which looked more like old LIRR equipment.
Although GM hastened the end of the streetcars in America, it overstates the case to imply that they destroyed a robust ongoing transportation business. The lines that GM purchased through it's proxies were financially troubled when purchased. Widespread automobile ownership provided the pressure to get trolleys off the streets. The electric street railway was looked at as a great improvement over the horse and buggy, but the automobile was looked at as a great improvement over the trolley. In Europe, where widespread automobile ownership was not the rule, streetcars continued to prosper.
BTW, the conversion from trolleys to buses came late in NYC. The December 25, 1948, New York Times says at page 28 that at that time the Board of Transportation was operating the following:
239 miles of subways and elevated lines
182 miles of trolleys
133 miles of bus lines (municipally operated)
Tom
old tom have you ever heard of the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california where the PE cars still run today ??
& what do you think about the blue & red lines going unsed during the DEMONCRATIC COOVENTION 2000 ??
now i'm thinking and i'm thinking very hard, because several people have all taken me to task on the around 1000 PCCs. Now i am getting foggy - BUT...the PE was known as the "red cars", wasn't there another company, the "yellow cars", that concentrated more on close-in streetcar service and less on interurban?
The Los Angeles Railway Co. ran extensive streetcar lines with the "yellow cars". It was sold in 1944 to National City Lines, which was the GM controlled company.
Tom
okay then that's what i'm thinking of. You are right how dumb was I being, of course the PE only did use the PCCs on one line which was almost all street trackage. The LARC is who owned all the PCCs that were burnt.
General Motors' key transit subsidiary was National City Lines, which DID exist for the sole purpose of shutting down service. GM and NCL were even prosecuted in the early 1950's under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act (for "conspiracy in restraint of trade"), convicted, and fined a mere pittance.
That motivation was parodied in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit": the bad guy intended to destroy both Toontown and the trolley lines in order to make room for freeways (to force people to buy automobiles). Except for the Toontown part, that's exactly what happened.
Youn guys forget the Standard Oil, and Good Year were also part owners of NCL
Didn't Firestone provide tires for GM buses at the time?
Yup, they sure did. And Standard Oil was the fuel provider.
WHICH Standard Oil?
Yes. NCT also was behind the Key System buyout. The KS irks me a lot more than the PE, because I'm a lot more partial to the Bay Area...While the end of the PE was felt, it wasn't like everyone cried over it. However, entire CITIES and COUNTY governments tried to save the Key System - city of Oakland passed an ordinance in the 50s prohibiting taking up any rail tracks wihtout the consent of the city council - GM ignored this. The president of the Key System tried to portray the trans-bay service as being unprofitable WHEN IN FACT in 1954 the bridge routes were still making 1.8 times operating/maintenence costs (this is according to financial records). Conversion of some of the 100-or-so streetcar lines they operated to bus routes was probably inevitable (GM bought them in 1946, had they been private for 10 more years SOME would have gone to bus). But the trans-bay routes were profitable and probably would have lasted indefinitely, until they would have been taken over by the MUNI or AC TRANSIT or something. In fact, AC was formed in 1956 to try to buy out the three remaining bridge routes that were left...to no avail. The tracks on the bridge were removed in 1958. California Department of Highways was on GM's side, they wanted the tracks removed to bring the bridge up to "freeway standards" (lanes on the top deck were 10 feet as opposed to the usual 12). At first the city of oakland wanted the tracks removed, but by '56 they were on the side of the rest of the east bay saying "we want our trains". If it weren't for GM, we'd have a light rail system serving the east bay...or perhaps the bridge tracks would have been converted to BART and BARTers would have a daylight ride to SF....
the ""who framed rodger rabbit PE red car was made from scratch from the real thing a genuine Orange Empire Museum pacific electric beauty
right there on the lot of the peris california transit museum ...
you can see this car everyday when the museum is open there in peris california & the rest of the huge PE cars a beautiful thing to see!!
thankz salaam allah
do you work for the museum salaam? nothing bad - it sounds cool and i've always wanted to visit it (never been to l.a., not since i was only 3 years old) but you seem to be pimpin' that museum off to everybody on these boards...
No, Salaam doesn't work for the museum (neither do I, of course), but he's right, it's a tremendous museum. I had the opportunity to visit there earlier this year with my 3-year-old grandson, who at the time only lived 250 miles away so the two of us (plus my son-in-law and Alex's other grandfather) made a day trip of it :-) We all had a tremendous time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Get the facts straight.
They did not burn over 1,000 PCC's as you state. For one thing, PE didn't even have HALF that many trolley cars.....and only about 30 of them were PCC's.
And they didn't even burn most of what PE did have. A lot of the equipment was sold to places in Central and South America.
And in the changing times of post-WWII, it's doubtful that PE would have lasted too many years once everyone was able to afford an automobile. THAT is what REALLY killed off rail transit in a LOT of areas of the USA, not just Los Angeles.
I like your response best of all !! Whenever i get the chance i go to the orange empire museum to see those beautiful giants that should still be here now !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
new section of my recent new york 1999 section added ...thankz
salaam allah
>>> build LOTS of LIGHT RAIL AT GRADE <<<
Although this solution might work in suburban areas, it is no solution for congested downtown areas. There must be separation between street traffic and rail in urban areas, or there will be no speed advantage for the rail systems. Without a speed advantage you will not entice riders from cars.
Tom
Your signed name is the ONLY part of that which is true. Go to Portland, Oregon. There Light Rail runs in seperate lanes ---but in downtown streets. Signals are linked to the trains so they are always green. Avg. Speed through downtown, stopping every 3 blocks, is about 10mph - which is EXACTLY the same as the Avg speed of a light rail subway stopping every 3 blocks (SF MUNI). And it works. It contributed immenseley to the atmosphere of Portland downtown as well. The only time the Portland MAX ever shares traffic is for about 1/4mile on the Steel Bridge (this was neccessary to preserve auto use of the bridge as well). Average MAX speed on the entire system is 27mph, again about the average of modern light rail systems. And Portland's MAX is well-recieved by the whole region. Another case in point - Denver, Salt Lake City, etc. etc. etc.. Now I'm not suggesting we should run LRVs straight through downtown Los Angeles, they can terminate at Red Line stations like the Blue does at Metro Center or use their own subways in downtown. But downtown LA is only about 2km by 2km and the ENTIRE rest of the metro area can take LRAGs, whether in streets or on abandoned PE ROWs
(NYC also may have large numbers of perfectly healthy people who avoid having to work, and circumvent welfare restrictions, by fraudulently claiming to be disabled.)
Interesting point. The numbers say that compared with the prior economic peak (1989) the decline in the number of ADULTS on welfare in NYC is more than balanced by the increase in the number of adults on disability (SSI). The number of children on welfare has fallen substantially, because welfare recipients are having fewer children just like everyone else (there has never been much difference between recipients and non-recipients).
Then again, many of those on welfare and SSI are also working. And the welfare payments to those that are left account for virtually no money compared with other drains out of the city treasury.
One cannot deny that when a McDonalds opens in or near a poor neighborhood in NYC, it gets up to 1,000 job applications. With the earned income tax credit, etc., low income workers get no benefit from working off the books, but employers avoid their share of FICA, unemployment insurance, and workman's comp, and also get to pay below minimum wage. That's the status of the labor market in much of NYC these days. Paper hat jobs are paradise in comparison.
(NYC also may have large numbers of perfectly healthy people who avoid having to work, and circumvent welfare restrictions, by fraudulently claiming to be disabled.)
[Interesting point. The numbers say that compared with the prior economic peak (1989) the decline in the number of ADULTS on welfare in NYC is more than balanced by the increase in the number of adults on disability (SSI).]
Another point worth pondering is that the percentage of disabled people in the labor force has dropped quite substantially over the past ten years or so. This is basically counter-intuitive, as a major point of ADA is to make it easier for the disabled to get around and hold jobs (there are obvious transit implications in this, as we all know). Yet precisely the opposite seems to be happening. Why this is so, I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect that it's due in part to lazy people falsely claiming to be disabled so they don't have to work.
Location:Billings, Montana area, a few years ago. Being an ex-New Yorker I'm familiar with racial connections regarding welfare. In this case all parties involved were white.Not that it really matters. In my dating experiences I met my share of women on SSI who for all practicalpurposes could have held a job. One that I was quite serious about until I had to bail out [[she was nuts]was costing the taxpayers over $2000 a month for 4 doctors and loads of medication. Not to mention a housekeeper to clean her apartment, make breakfast, do laundry, wash dishes when she was perfectly capable of at least keeping house. A nice clean apartment including utilities for $75 a month. So I finally find somebody else and get married. After 30 years of working hard to raise and supposrt her kids while the ex slipped thru every crack in the system to avoid paying child support she finally caved in. Not just diabetes, high blood pressure, glaucoma, but next a 5 bypass heart surgery. Yes, she still works cause that's how she's made; low paying jobs, no health benefits. [Life in rural-small town America] Try to get SSI ONLY to help with her medical expenses. Get turned down, doc s say she can work if she takes her meds. Yes, at $400 plus a month. Not that I'm broke and don't support her but another major medical will wipe me out. Work hard, raise your kids, don't ask for a handout, ever. Then burn out and they won't give you a thing. But for others who know how to use the system its come and get it, everything paid for by those who work. I wish I could feel more optimistic about how great they say things are; excluding myself there are many who work and can't afford to be sick.
More proof that New York is doing something wrong. Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty just released figures showing changes in state-by-state child poverty rates for the 1993-1998 period. This period coincides, of course, with a strong economic recovery on the national level.
New York State's child poverty rate decreased by 7.4% during the period. That might sound good, but it's well below the nationwide reduction of 17.1%. And many larger states have had bigger reductions than New York: Ohio, 8.9%; Pennsylvania, 10.2%; California, 14.9%; Texas, 15.5%; Massachusetts, 19.4%; Florida, 22.5%; New Jersey, 33.3%; Illinois, 34.1%; and Michigan, 38.1%. The only major states to do worse than New York were Georgia and North Carolina, with increases of 29.4% and 9.2% respectively.
Anything that is labor intensive will increase in cost faster than the general level of inflation. Consider health care, education, and construction of all types, but particularly specialized construction such as building tunnels in dense urban areas. All of these are labor intensive.
Manufactured goods have gotten, in real dollars, cheaper to produce over the years because of the productivity gains that manufacturers are constantly making. If there is one thing that the industialized economy is good at doing, its making loaved of bread or computer monitors or mid-sized sedans at a low price. Increases in productivity are largely due to technology. Also, remember that many things have kept about the same price but the quality of the product has improved.
Labor-intensive things like education, health care, and construction have not had the improvements in productivity that manufacturing has. Technology is not as useful in education, particularly for little kids, who really need to learn a lot of things from another person directly. It will be a while before computers can maintain control of a classroom. Health care has used technology tremendously, but more to improve care, rather than to make it cheaper. And technology has certainly helped in construction, but not nearly as much as in manufacturing. Largely because every subway tunnel is different (and so is every building site, etc.)
So part of the reason that subways are so expensive is that labor intensive services have become relatively very expensive compared to cheap manufactured goods. If you had paid $15,000 for the monitor you are reading this on, the price tag for the second ave. line would not seem so exhoribitant.
I am not saying that the problems of red tape, governmental/political messes, and NYC in particular are not important - they certainly are. But in an economy so good at reducing the costs of manufactured goods, specialized construction like that of subways will continually get more expensive in a relative sense.
Oh, come on!
Subways are not nearly as labor intensive as they used to be to build, but they cost, much, much more. Labor has gone down in construction too.
As to education and health care, the skyrocketing costs feed a skyrocketing bureaucracy of paper shuffling from regulations and pure liberal BS like the diversity racket and other nonesense. A professor bringing in hundreds of thousands in reasearch money and teaching 30 undergraduates easily pays his way. Its the enormous number of useless critters at Universities that drive up the costs. Ditto for Hospitals, where you get kicked out after a stay of a few hours now, and they charge you as much as a months rent in NYC for the privelege!
Andrew Byler
Hello,
Does anyone have car/lines assignment charts for years prior to 1995 (like the ones that are reprinted in the NYD ERA bulletins). I only have bulletins going back to 1995. I'd be interested in the car assignments one per year for any year prior to 1995 if anyone has them...
(Car Assignments/Trains Required for Rush Hour Service)
-dave
Do PATH roll signs have any other dest. besides 33rd, HOB, JSQ, NWK,WTC, and SPECIAL???
JSQ via HOB
33rd via HOB
Conductor told me of these, never saw them so unconfirmed:
WTC via HOB
OUT OF SERVICE
I have also seen:
EXPRESS
Blank white
Well it started it out cloudy on Wednsday morning, as I rode the N21 to Flushing. Saw an eastbound NYCT Orion 658 on Northern Blvd broken down, with jeep on site, in the right lane. I went down to subway at around 9:30am to get a 7X train to Manhattan, to my suprise there were NO TRAINS waiting in the station, except a 7 local.
An express finally pulled in on the southernmost track, and by 9:40am were finally moving. But the local left before us and was diverted onto the express track. Apparently the G.O. diverting locals over to the express had already started even though it wasn't 10AM yet.
So we had to wait for the train to leave Willets point, that was only one minute.
The the train picked up it's usual speed after Willets but we had to wait again as the local was being held at Junction for 5 minutes.
Then we had to wait in Junction for a few minutes. After Junction the trip was slow, there were alot of workers on the tracks, so we had to go slow blowing the horn. There were alot of people on some of Manhattan bound local platforms, thinking a train would still come because it was before 10.
After QBPlaza the trip progressed normally, and I got off at 5th and transferred to a D down to Grand street.
Couldn't stay in Chinatown too long, as the sun came out and made things oppressive. I decided to visit Garden State Plaza since it was getting way too hot for me in the city. Just missed a northbound Q at Grand, and waited another 10 minutes in the stifling heat, was about to faint. Another Q came, so I got on and took it to W4th where I changed for a C. Took that to the PA bus terminal, which has an entrance to the subway. The terminal was very nice, air conditioned with lots of shops and stores. And it is HUGE.
I got my tickets for NJT bus 163 to Garden State Plaza mall. Because it was round trip I only paid $2.55 each way!
The place where you wait for the buses is air conditioned, that was sure a treat after waiting in the heat for what seemed like ages for a subway train. The 1:10pm bus was 10 minutes late due to traffic at Lincoln tunnel. The bus pulled up, and it was a nice Coach style bus with nice A/C and very comfortable seats. The ride was very nice.
We sped through the tunnel, which is a lot nicer than subway tunnels with nice lighting and tiles. We emerged in NJ and first went through Union City. Then we went on route 3, which is a beautiful superhighway type of road, something we don't have on LI. We went pretty fast, and I passed some RR tracks by a set of transmission lines, they must be for NJT trains, I saw a substation that must be for train power with the NJT logo on it.
Anyway after that we rode on local roads that go through nice neighborhoods, nice middle income suburban neighborhoods, something that is fast dissapearing on Long Island.
We emerged from one of the nice neighborhoods (I think it was Maywood) into the Garden State mall.The ride was about an hour. The place looked huge. The bus dropped us off right by the entrance. The mall was so nice. Department stores were huge, and Nordstrom's was alot nicer and warmer looking than the Roosevelt Field store. There were plenty of places to eat, and the mall had so much more than Roosevelt Field. I spent about 4 hours in the cool A/C of the mall.
I hated to leave, and went to the bus stop. My bus was the 6:10pm bus to New York and it was right on time. This time it was Flxible, never rode on the one before. It had express style seats, and was pretty fast and cool. NJT buses are somewhat older than MTA's, but ride pretty nice and are very clean. I did not see any breakdowns in NJ at all. The ride going back was nice, this time I noticed a rail line that was below us in a beautiful open cut in Maywood. There trees drooping all over, I wonder what line runs through there.
We did have alot of traffic in and before the Lincoln tunnel. Didn't arrive at the bus terminal until 7:20pm.
I then waited a long time (15 minutes) for an E to Queens at 42nd street. Sweat was pouring down my face, and I figured I'd save alittle walking by taking the E to 74th and then the 7, instead of the long walk to the 7 at 42nd street. BIG MISTAKE.
The E finally came, and when we got to 7th I saw all red signals ahead of us, an F was in 5th ave. Anyway, we left 7th ave only to get stuck before 5th ave for 20 minutes due to a "police investigation" at Lexington. Why they didn't keep us at 7th boggles me. That way I could've gotten out and another way home. But we were stuck waiting. Finally near 8pm the F train moves and the signals clear. The rest of the trip was slow. Even though we had clear signals most of the way, we crept in the 53rd street tubes and than after Queens Plaza.
There I waited for a 7 train for 10 minutes (just missed it) and all service was slow due to workers on the tracks.
I got to Flushing at 8:30pm, which was dead with most stores closed. It felt creepy, thank God some cops were around. I was glad to get on that 8:53pm N21 bus home after my long 60 minute ride on the subway. It was hot down there, even the trains weren't that cool. Unfortunately neither was LI bus 185 either, the A/C wasn't too good, and people opened the windows which only made it hotter.
I sure wish LI Had express buses. Everyone else does. It would be nice to be able to get a bus home from the PA bus terminal on a hot day like yesterday. I like NJ though. I'd much rather live there than Long Island. They have nicer buses, and they go all the way to NYC. They have nice trains from what I hear. The gas is cheaper, the roads are nicer, and they have nice malls. Why do so many people like Long Island so much?
Next time consider the LIRR to Penn or Atl Ave, and PATH to NJ. Both are very enjoyable rides, and off-peek the LIRR is a bargin.
Mr t__:^)
John lives near the Sea Cliff station of the Oyster Bay Line which he doesn't like!!! He'd rather ride a slow LI BUS and the "7" train instead of a brand new tri-level!!
Why don't I take LIRR? Well mainly because of scheduling. I always leave for the city at 8:30am. At that time there is a 8:34am PEAK train at Sea Cliff. But Peak costs too much money for me. The next OFF-PEAK train isn't until 9:44am. OB line service is too infrequent, even though I hate the bus it's one of the best ways.
I sometimes do catch the N23 down to Mineola where I can get an OFF-PEAK stopping only at Jamaica, but due to this summers construction it was moved earlier. At night the first OFF-PEAK OB train isn't until 8:34pm, and doesn't arrive at Sea Cliff until 9:36pm. It's along walk from the station and there's no bus service there at night, and I can't afford a taxi. I wish they'd have a shuttle bus running from Sea Cliff to the LIRR station.
Also a $4 fun pass is alot cheaper than LIRR round trip (close to $10) and I'm on a limited bugdet, so hence the long trip home.
John, you seem to go out of your way to ensure that you have an unpleasent time while riding mass transit. I'm also refering to your posts to BusTalk.
I like to have a little fun & enjoyment, e.g. I could drive to the city (last week-end, I could have driven to heypaul's Open-House as it would have been about 3/4 of an hour vs. more by LIRR & subway), but I rather leave the driving to someone else. My garndson & I had a lovely time with my $10 LIRR ticket (he was free) & our two Fun Passes.
My point is, if it's always going to be so unpleasent & you can't affort to take the LIRR, why bother going at all ? Yuck !
Mr t__:^)
Well it seems lately things have been unpleasant. I usually very much enjoy taking the E or F trains in Queens, especially the R32 E train with the front window. It sure was nice speeding past stations, and getting to go fast. But for the past few times the lines in Queens (E,F,7) have been slower, due the construction work. Also it is not as fun in the hot weather.
It seems the 53rd street tubes are slower than ever, and a 6th ave express aint really that much of an express anymore as the trains seem to be running slower lately (once an F local beat a D express from W4th to 34th!). It seems on hot days, subway trains are slower. I also saw a few with dimmed lights. Perhaps because the TA is asked to cut back on power? It just seems like subway trains are slower and more unreliable in summer.
I do enjoy riding the subway, I'm just not a fan of it in 90 degree weather. As far as buses go, LI buses don't have good A/C, and I have a low tolerance for the heat.
As far as getting from Sea Cliff to the city, it can be a pain sometimes. After all the bus ride is slow, and an hour or more. And the 7 train can be slow too. Usually though, the subway leg of my journey is much faster and more enjoyable. However I will agree that taking the LIRR one way at least is much better.
I noticed today while at Great Neck several OOS trains speeding through the station, usually they go slower through there, I guess the track work there is improving speeds.
When I do visit the city next time and it is hot, my best bet is probably to catch the 8:19pm Port Washington train, take it to Great Neck where I can catch the bus home, thus avoiding Queens and Flushing. When I can, it's best to take Port Washington trains to Penn, that way I can avoid the whole Queens maint. mess.
However once they finish with the work in September, service on the subway should improve. What are they doing on the 7 line? There seems to be alot of work going on there on the elevated portion. It is really slowing the usually fast expresses on the M track down alot.
But most people on Long Island do take LIRR because it's the fastest way to go. But the best branch for me is Port Washington branch, because of the infrequent OB branch service. Alot of people from Sea Cliff, Glen Head, and Roslyn use the PW branch stations at Great Neck, Manhasset, or Port Washington for their commute.
I never really minded the bus-subway trip until this year. It seems things are getting more unreliable and since the Wendy's shooting in Flushing it's kind of quiet there at night, which is spooky.
If I lived closer to central Nassau I'd be alot better off. The F train is much more comfortable and not as severely crowded as the 7, plus the N22,24, and N6 buses are much faster than the N20/21.
It only takes a little over a half hour to reach the subway from Mineola on the N22. On the N21 from Glen Cove, the ride is over an hour to the subway.
Most people on the N21 aren't taking it to the number 7 train, but various stops within Nassau and Queens. Ridership patterns on the N22 gear more toward subway-Nassau county travel. Perhaps that is why I enjoy riding it more, we never have to make alot of drop-offs in Queens like on the N21.
I'm curious as to what most people think is the best way to get from Nassau to Manhattan without the LIRR.
I think the best way to get from Nassau to Manhattan would probably be... the JFK Flyer to the A! Seriously, in terms of speed, the N6 (Espc. the Limited) to the F or the N4 to the E would be the best ways. The N24 I found is slightly faster in getting to Jamaica than the N22, because it stays a tad longer in the discharge only section, plus it doesn't have that ridiculous overshoot of Mineola Blvd. to go 2 extra blocks, turn right, 1 block, right again, 2 blocks, left, and end up 1 block from where you were 5 minutes ago (after all the missed lights because of stops). I do enjoy the ride on the N20, between Hicksville and just before it joins the 21. The stops are really infrequent, and in the middle of nowhere, sometimes the anoouncement repeats itself several times because of the distance. I only ride this late in the evening, sometimes you can count the other passengers with one hand, and the hour long ride in the complete dark is perfect for putting me right to sleep, especially on the way home after railfanning on the Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma lines (Get off at Hicksville).
By the way, Hicksville N22 riders have about the same long ride as the N21, but what they lack in speed they make up in frequency.
[I'm curious as to what most people think is the best way to get from Nassau to Manhattan without the LIRR.]
Without the LIRR? Driving in!!!
Yes, I've done that too as a tourest thing with folks from out of town, i.e. over the Willimsburg Bridge thru China Town, etc. My wife & I like to drive into The Village & walk around ... we've done that ever since we were week-end hippys back in the 60s.
Mr t__:^)
Then we went on route 3, which is a beautiful superhighway type of road, something we don't have on LI.
Does the number 495 mean anything to you, or are you just LIEing?
Route 46 becomes route 3 which becomes 495 which becomes the Lincoln Tunnel which becomes 34st which becomes the Midtown Tunnel which becomes 495 again.
The Lincoln tunnel becomes nothing. It connects to a system of ramps (collectively known as the Lincoln Tunnel Expressway) that links it to most side streets from 30th to about 45th, a road called Dyer Avenue that runs from 34th to 42nd between 9th and 10th (or 10th and 11th, I can't recall) and the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
The tunnel is also closer to 42nd than to 34th, same thing for the Queens-Midtown.
Dyer Avenue is between 9th & 10th.
It is true that the Tunnel and the Bridge are both closer to 42nd Street than to 34th Street. However, 34th Street is designated as NY-495 (along with Dyre Ave. and the approach to the Bridge), which connects the sections of I-495 in New Jersey and New York. So, it is not entirely incorrect to say that the Lincoln Tunnel "becomes" 34th Street.
Of course, if Robert "The Destroyer" Moses had had his way, the Mid-Manhattan Expressway would have run over 42nd Street, and it probably would be I-495 today.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Of course, if Robert "The Destroyer" Moses had had his way, the Mid-Manhattan Expressway would have run over 42nd Street, and it probably would be I-495
today.
Walked past the site of the demolition of the Coliseum at Columbus Circle yesterday. Must admit I felt more than a bit of pleasure at witnessing the destruction of one of "The Destroyer's" own monuments. Ha ha!
[Walked past the site of the demolition of the Coliseum at Columbus Circle yesterday. Must admit I felt more than a bit of pleasure at witnessing the destruction of one of "The Destroyer's" own monuments. Ha ha!]
Not to change the subject or anything, but are there established plans for something else to be built on the Coliseum site, or will it lie empty for years?
A large office building/residential tower/arts complex is to be built on the site which will contain mostly the headquarters of AOL/Time Warner. The architecture will be post-modern, quasi glass curtain style, reminiscient of the 2-towered apartment houses on CPW, with a large central atrium. The building's front will be concave, matching the circle. There will be some apartments and a performance space for Lincoln Center Jazz (can't recall the actual title of the group). AFAIK, they'll begin contruction once Moses' monolith is totally out of the way.
BTW, the large box-like main building of the Coliseum is completely gone. They're working on the "office" part now. The 4 large bronze medallions, which used to be embedded in the wall of the building, have been saved. Not sure where they'll end up. Maybe someone will start the New York Highway Museum on the site of an abandoned roadway someday.
The Mid-Manhattan Expressway was to be built between 29th and 30th, not over 42nd.
DYER Avenue does not have a single I-495 sign.
The 34th Street signs are TO I-495, a street cannot be an interstate, those signs are more like MID-MANHATTAN EXPY, COMING SOON that someone forgot to take down.
Oops! You are right about the proposed location of the Mid-Manhattan Expwy., and about the spelling of Dyer.
However, I didn't say that 34th Street and Dyer Ave. were Interstate-495; I said they were NEW YORK-495, connecting the New Jersey and New York sections of I-495.
Even though 34th Street is a State route, it doesn't have any NY-495 shields (I don't think), only the "TO I-495" signs you mentioned.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I don't think it is NY-495 either, NY-495 used to run along the LIE from the Clearview to Riverhead. More recently, it runs from the BQE to the tunnel, even though the shields are still I-495 (notice the reference markers say 495 instead 495I on the top line).
Also, in New Jersey, it has been NJ-495, not I-495 for many years now.
Route 46 does not become route 3...
Route 46 continues on its own to the GW bridge.
Route 3 begins at rt.46 in clifton.
Peace,
ANDEE
The LIE feels alot more congested than route 3.
Then you were on NJ-3 at the wrong time.
Garden State is a pretty cool place.
If you're in the mood for a longer trip, take the Red & Tan/Rockland Coach #20 from the PA up to the Palisades Center Mall in West Nyack.
Palisades dwarfs Garden State, although it is not as fancy as GSP.
The #20 schedule is not accurate, though. It indicates that the trip takes about an hour and 20 minutes.
In fact, each time I took it, the trip took nearly 2 hours!
Once, the driver made it in an hour and a half, but he was really pushing it, driving like a maniac! The route is also pretty complicated and passes through many many towns.
The fare is around $5.00
Probably because the bus didn't use the PIP?
Your post brings back memories: Port Authority (I still remember before it was expanded), the Lincoln Tunnel, NJ Rt. 3. Many a Saturday I would find myself on a bus on that beaten path.
How is Garden State Plaza these days? We used to go there when we first moved to Jersey in the spring of 1967. I haven't been through that area since perhaps 1970.
I visit GSP fairly often and it is really nice.
Even the kids that hang out there aren't that bad!
I can assure you that the area has changed since 1970, I just don't know WHAT has changed, except for a new parking deck that was built a few years ago, and new traffic patterns, some resulting from the Route 4/17 interchange reconstruction.
>>>How is Garden State Plaza these days?<<<
It was enclosed in the late '70s early '80s.
Peace,
ANDEE
So in other words, I probably wouldn't recognize it today. How about the pedestrian bridge across Rt. 4? Is it still there?
The last time (only time) I crossed Route 4, there was no footbridge, but this was before reconstruction of the Route 4/17 interchange began, so they might have rebuilt one.
I remember I got off the #171 bus, which runs along Route 4, going west and I asked the driver how to get across - he said walk over Route 17.
Yeah, and I almost got killed 3 times in the process, so I seriously hope they put a pedestrian bridge there.
The highway bus stop at Bergen Mall is much better, with the stop being in a pull-off (pull-out?) and a lighted, enclosed pedestrian bridge over the highway.
Bergen Mall is tiny and in sad shape though, and it surprises me that it didn't shut down a long time ago.
Bergen Mall probably can't compete with Garden State Plaza and Paramus Park, as well as the very upscale Riverside square mall, I hear they have Saks and Bloomingdales as two anchors, a bit too upscale for me.
Garden State Plaza has a pretty good mix of stores though, upscale and midscale, and a nice bus stop, I'll be returning to that area REAL soon!
I believe Bergen Mall has anchors of Stern's and Kohl's according to www.realmalls.com. Stern's is a discount department store and they don't appear to be doing too well. Kohl's is opening stores like crazy but they don't seem to be busy either.
Broadway Mall in Hicksville though is one mall in bad shape. Lots of empty stores, and two weak anchors JC Penney and Stern's. Much emptier than Roosevelt Field. When and if the Mall at Oyster Bay gets built on the old Cerro wire site in Locust Grove, Broadway Mall will probably close, with only the movies and Ikea remaining. It sure would be nice if the Landia LIRR station would reopen, that is pretty close to the new mall site. With new bus routes in the area, this new mall could be a new "mini" HUB area of sorts, and the only mall within walking distance of an LIRR station on Long Island.
Also another idea is I know the LIRR runs right in back of Tanger in Riverhead, it sure would be nice if they'd put a station in there. That way people from NYC and even LI could take the train to Tanger, instead of crowding the already backed-up LIE.
In a few months we will have the opportunity to vote for a transportation bond act which would fund, among other things, less than ten percent of the Second Avenue Subway.
Aside from the Bond Act, the MTA will be borrowing nearly $20 million over four years, including $12 billion in bonds re-issued at higher interest rates to avoid paying them back (ie. debt with no improvments attached). There is no opportunity to vote on that.
Do Subtalkers plan to vote yes, thereby demonstrating their committment to transportation projects, but probably not getting any?
Or no, thereby giving "our" representatives an excuse to fund transportation at an even lower rate relative to other places?
Grab a barf bag and place your vote. I vote no.
If we vote yes & it passes ... isn't the money split 50% highway & 50% rapid transit ? (i.e. same old same old) Obviously you have a problem with something in the Bond Issue ... what would that be ?
Lets start a debat, maybe folks will get distracted & leave the Train Dude & heypaul alone for a while.
Mr t__:^)
Isn't this proposal really a version of "chicken"? By which I mean to say that, after the debt restructuring, the MTA will be so burdened with debt that the state will either have to increase funding or force the MTA to forego further improvements and rehabilitation. Not a very nice choice. Frankly, if the economy is still strong several years down the road, maybe a major improvement like the Second Avenue Subway will proceed. But if there is any substantial economic downturn, such an expensive project will be the first thing to be abandoned.
I'm voting no, as I've done on most bond issue referendums. New York is saddled with enough debt that New York taxpayers in the future will have to pay off. The state is foolishly gambling on endless high economic growth. The fabled 'dot.coms' that were going to boost Manhattan employment are in the midst of an overdue shakeout. Wall Street as always is the city's main job engine, but forever? Media jobs are relatively few in number and go to only those with very specific skills and education. In other words the city can continue to have a healthy economy but not with as many people coming into Manhattan as now. We've often talked about telecommuting as reducing the need to schlepp into the city, and it will only increase as time goes on. A lot of people in the city must think that once the bond issue passes construction equipment will appear on 2nd Avenue the next day to start subway construction. I don't think so.
[I'm voting no, as I've done on most bond issue referendums. New York is saddled with enough debt that New York taxpayers in the future will have to pay off. The state is foolishly gambling on endless high economic growth.]
Politicians in general seem to believe that the business cycle has been repealed. Both Gore's and Bush's Social Security reform plans assume that the economy will continue to grow, though in different ways - Gore's plan assumes that federal surplus will keep growing, while Bush's plan assumes that stock prices will keep rising. Admittedly, there's _some_ reason to believe that technological advances, increased productivity and demographic changes may in the foreseeable future help to shield the economy from big downturns. That would be terrific if that indeed were to happen, but I would be too cautious to make continued growth an essential prerequisite for my economic plans.
In 1947 and 1967 [I think] bond issues were passed to finance some new construction including the 2nd Ave subway. We all know what happened to all the new lines. Most live only in railfan discussions.So why vote for it? Unless the leopards changed their spots.
But I don't see the point in voting NO, that isn't going to help the situation .... is it ?
I for one want to see some of this construction work proceed. Voting no will only give the politicians an excuse to spend our money on something else while saying "the people have spoken ... no new constreuction for mass transit wanted in NYC". Meanwhile the financial shortfall problem continues to mount.
Voting yes, they get the mandate to start the construction and still have to deal with the financial shortfall besides.
Am I not seeing something here that obvious to everyone else ?
Mr t__:^)
(Am I not seeing something here that obvious to everyone else ?)
1) New York City residents and businesses will have to pay back 1/2 or more of the money.
2) New York City will be lucky to get one-third of the spending.
3) The $4.2 billion will not be used for construction of the Second Avenue Subway, only for preliminary work.
4) Aside from this act, the MTA is being sunk so deep in debt that even state-of-good-repair normal replacement is likely to be abandoned later in the decade. If you are re-financing $12 billion, why not use that for the Second Avenue Subway.
Since the 1967 bond issue which is the last one I remember the system has grown by: the 63rd st. Tunnel which in all truth we could have lived without (unless of course there was additional Queens trackage); the Archer Ave. subway which has been no improvement to service in any way at all, actually a reduction in service (shorter J if only by one half mile or so; much shorter E. The Chrystie St. connection opened the same month as that election, and unfortunately half of it is unused. The worst needed lines, East side Manhattan and Queens..zero; some other nice handy things like Coop city service, direct airport service, and a few other outlying lines extended ...zero.
>>> If you are re-financing $12 billion, why not use that for the Second Avenue Subway. <<<
Larry;
Sorry, you cannot uses the $12 billion for the 2nd Ave subway or anything else. It has already been spent. Re-financing is borrowing new money to pay back to lenders previously borrowed money. i.e. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Or, in another context, paying the "vig" to get more time to re-pay the loan.
Tom
Don't confuse Larry with the facts. When it comes to the Second Avenue Subway, Larry is a Red Sox fan.
Peter:
I think you are being both overly cynical and naive about Republican and Democratic budget projections.
The "continued economic growth" we always here about is nothing more than projecting outwards an average rate of growth in the future based on historic growth in the past. Currently, they are using a modest rate of something like 2.7%. The economy in the meantime is racing along at 5 to 7% growth. The projections are fiscally prudent for the most part.
The only problem is not that they do not account for recessions but that they always raise the bar when the good news comes in during economic expansions. Thus, rather than a steady 2.7% being projected outwards, this 2.7% line is raised up each time growth exceeds that. This is where the growth in the budget surplus and all the extra money for new programs is constantly coming from. Although it is likely to be accurate for 8 to 10 years out, it is much less likely to be accurate for the next 3 to 5 years, when a recession is likely to either occur or have occurred.
Andrew Byler
(Peter: I think you are being both overly cynical and naive about Republican and Democratic budget projections.)
Or perhaps not cynical enough. The future has no value to the weak-ego pandermanics who get elected in this country. Hence the few things the two parties can agree on are more debt and not investing in the infrastructure.
Thanks to Ross Perot, were scared into good behavior for a few years. Then, thanks to the culture war in Washington, they haven't been able to agree on how to return to bad behavior. So we've been lucky.
Our only hope is continued gridlock until the debt is paid off. Then they can increase spending or cut taxes by up to 15 percent, since the interest burden won't be there anymore.
When all the Redbirds retire will the Transit Museum keep one of the rebirds for exibit?
Well, currently, the TA has a Bluebird at the Museum. It's an R33 Single. I hope they do. Does anybody know if the platforms for the Museum were extended? They seem longer than 600' What will happen when the R28, R40, R40M, and R42 retire.
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I think an R-40 slant will be linked to an R-40M, The R-42 will be linked to the R-38, and R-32s 3730 and 3731 will be displayed in the lobby of 370 Jay St, and become the NYCTA business train. They will also be displayed as part of the "NYCT's First Major Stainless Steel Order" exhibit.
No, 3730-1 will be displayed as the centerpieces of Henry R32 #3730's private railyard, hidden in a secret, undisclosed location somewhere along the old LIRR Rockaway branch. Also part of the collection: an Air Conditioned Multiple Unit (ACMU) and an R33 single.
The platforms at Court St. were never lengthened. None of the IND platforms ever were, AFAIK.
"Red Birds" could become a generic term that applies to all of the "Arch Roof" designed subway cars. This then would include all the IRT cars (R-15 thru R36) and IND/BMT versions, e.g. R-16, R-27, R-30.
But not the Stailness steel Arch Roof R-32 & R-38.
Currently the TA Museum has several Arch Roof cars at the Museum. Besides those the museum at Kingston has a R-16, the one at Branford has a R-17, and the IRM museum in Ill. plans to purchase a pair.
Many of us here hope that a few more are saved, e.g. I would like to see Branford obtain a World's Fair R-33 to play with our R-17. We have several subway cars mfg. by AFC, but very few by St. Louis, so a R-33 or a Slant 40 would be nice. A Budd or a Pullman would be nice too, but now I'm realy getting beyond the scope of this thread.
Mr t__:^)
I'm looking for information about the Caracas Metro System
I rode it in 1991, it has a fare system exactly like Washington DC, except the prices are in Bolivars, not Dollars. It was built in the late 70s like the DC Metro so all other things (except architecture) should be similar.
I don't remember much else about it, it was crowded and back then I couldn't care less (and didn't speak Spanish).
When the R-62s were coming in, or any time before now (including spring even), couldn't the TA have put the R-62s on the 7 and moved the WF cars to the mainlines?
R-62s did make an appearance on the Flushing Line when they debuted, and promptly ripped pieces of their sides off in the Steinway Tunnel. That problem has been corrected, but it went a long way towards deciding to keep the World's Fair cars where they were for the past 15 years.
Ouch... any car numbers? Is the damage still visible?
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Even so, once the problem in the Steinway Tunnels was fixed (some years ago), the R62s or 62As should have been sent to the 7 then and the R36 WF cars transferred to the IRT Main Line and the singles sent off to the scrap yards.
Considering how crowded the average IRT car is at rush hour, why would they have wanted to scrap the R-33WFs over a decade before the R-142s arrived? That would have been as stupid as the MTA scrapping the R-27/30s a decade before the R-143s arrived just because they had no air con....oh, wait a second, the MTA was that stupid. Sorry.
One only needs to go back to 1964-65, when the Triplexes were retired even though they were still in tip-top shape.
Some people just never learn.
fred... i haven't see you posting lately... i realize that there has been a raging firestorm here in the east, and maybe you were taking cover, hoping that it won't spread... well the flames have damped down here, and i have a burning desire to trash the seedy beach line, but i want to be sure that you are here, so that you will get aggravated...
Yes Fred where are you. Next week I was planning to do a Field Trip, NOT on the Sea Beach with you, but it's been some weeks since you last posted. Hmmm are you walking from Calif. to NYC ?
Mr t__:^)
I hear the T/O's and C/R's change crew at BedFord park instead of Norwood. How does this work?
Well, it works the way you said it. A crew takes a D Train out from Coney Island. When the D Train gets to 205 Street, the C/R gets off while the T/O switches ends and goes to the southbound operating motor. Another motorman, assigned to that station takes the Northbound motor and brings it past to station to relay it. There are no switches west of the station to relay it easily. The northbound T/O brings it pass the station switches over to the Manthattan-Bound Track and dumps. The T/O that took the D Train to 205 Street from Coney Island, charges and when the signals clear, brings it into 205 Street on the Manhattan-Bound Track. When the D Train is in the station, the C/R get's on. When it's time for the train to leave, the same crew from Coney Island takes it to Bedford Park Boulevard. There, the T/O dumps the train. The new crew takes the train from there.
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You're close, R62A-5200. Crews relay the trains at 205th Street, but the T/O does not change ends at the station. The station switchman gets on at the last car (the south motor), and after the train has been cleaned out of passengers, the T/O pulls the train out onto the relay track. C/Rs are supposed to ride the relays into order change the conductor's position going southbound and/or in case there is no station switchman available (that way, he can "key" the T/O through the trainfrom one end to the other). After dumping the train at the bumper block, the switchman charges up, and after getting the proper line-up, pulls the train back into the station on the southbound side and dumps. The T/O then walks to the south motor and charges the train up again to pull it into the Bedford Pk Blvd. Station. It is there where the train crews change.
Ay! I haven't been there for a while. So, that's that that other T/O is called.
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Today on my trip to and from Vienna (I started at Friendship Heights) I had a few interesting encounters. First off, car 1188 which took me from Friendship Heights to Metro Center did not have a door chime. The doors opened with no announcement and closed the same way. This was the only car where it didn't work. You could hear the chime from 1189 and the other 2 cars from the railfan window. Upon getting to the lower level of Metro Center, I saw the sign that indicate the next trains arrival was displaying this:
TESTTESTTESTOrange Line
to Vienna in
2 Minutes
(Everything had a black background except for the TEST thing for which 2 of the 3 were black on orange. I couldn't get the HTML to work).
It then changed to one minute and then "in 1 minute" was changed to arriving. The screens were also working on the other side of Metro Center (lower level only) and at Farragut West, McPherson Square, and Foggy Bottom. The signs do go blank once the train stops in the station and if there isn't enough time between trains (on the inbound trip from Vienna, we were directly behind a blue line), it won't say anything either. I didn't ahve my camera so I didn't get any pictures. The sign seems to only display orange for when it said the blue line was next, it displayed this info in orange.
Also, I had the T/O who I had almost every day between DuPont Circle and home take me to Friendship from Metro Center. Unlike some of the T/Os who I have met who are really hostile to me, he's a pretty nice guy and often he and I will chat if he is right behind the train in front of him (which he was today. There is also another T/O who does this too).
Well... the title says it all. Picture number one...
Hmm... when were you allowed to be on the tracks with dress shoes and no reflecting vest? Where is the man on the right walking from? His feet aren't straight as if standing.
Well, the Dennis Miller look alike is clearer than the whole picture, coming from an ackward angle.
All these file are from the MTA BBS. What do you guys make of it?
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Also, the train is heading away from the camera, because the red lights are on, so why would the T/O be in the back of the train? In the first picture, look how small the white guy is compared to the tracks. Whoever made the picture was only comparing relative sizes to the train and not the whole picture.
In the pre-OPTO days, the Franklin Ave shuttle used to have 2 motormen at each end of the train, with the motorman who was in the rear of the train acting as a conductor, so that explains that.
Before they had OPTO, they had R-32s.
I was referring to the days when OPTO didn't exist, but the R68's ran on the shuttle.
I thought there was no overlap.
The R68's ran on the shuttle in the late 80's/early 90's. An incident which led one to collide with the bumper block at Franklin Ave. led to theim being removed in favor of R32's. During this time, they r with motorman AND conducrors.
The first picture is The Union Square Wreck. The two people in the picture are inserts, as 5200 points out.
I know the people were inserts. I was pointing out other reasons you can tell they weren't on the picture.
[The first picture is The Union Square Wreck. The two people in the picture are inserts, as 5200 points out.]
Whoever faked the picture certainly succeeded at it, as the picture's been widely reproduced and is probably the most famous "wreck" photo in subway history. I wonder why someone faked it?
Probably to make it widely reproduced and probably the most famous "wreck" photo in subway history.
In the first picture, a famous shot of the Union Square wreck, the men presumably aren't wearing reflective vests for the simple reason that there weren't any trains running at that time!
Right. And probably the black guy in the shot is a TA big-shot -- that explains no vest and the double-breated suit at a subway accident.
Those two men in the wreckage picture look like the real McCoy.
However, the color shot with the "Dennis Miller look-alike" in the cab of the R-68 on the Franklin Shuttle looks to be a clever (and poor I might add) attempt at "morfing photography".
Doug aka BMTman
Hmm... but dress shoes on the tracks?
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one of the nice things about the article on railfans in the new york times has been getting some calls from people who have been very interested in transit also... a couple of days ago, i spoke with a man who modeled an r1/9 in o gauge, and today i was very fortunate to have him drop over my house with it... in order to build it, he went up to branford many years ago, and photographed the car... he had dozens of pictures just of the underside of the car... the detailing on the model was incredible... it was built from scratch, with the exception of the wheels... just the wheels, not the trucks... robert left me with two pictures of the car and the underbody, and i will try to get them posted here... the trucks had incredible detail... so did the underbody with resistor grids, air tanks, piping, battery boxes, etc... the interior of the cars had wicker seating, poles, and several passengers... the car is not powered, and is mainly for display... the motorman's compartment has a visible switch box against the rear wall...
the car took a couple of months to build, and the detailing put my efforts with the r9 cab to shame... he had also done research on the elevated structures, and had many dozens of photographs of elevated structure throughout the city...
it was really great to see the end result of such a strong passion for the detail and accuracy... just as this website's load of information represents david's passion for detail and depth of coverage...
please post a picture of this !!
Yes, please post the photos ASAP! Also, please check out the web site www.monmouth.com/~patv (there is a link from the transfer station of this website). This is a site devoted to modeling the New York subway. You might find it interesting!
Why don't they run skip-stop in the non-peak direction of the Flushing line? They could have the expresses and locals serve alternate stations, with all express + 74st stops as all stop stations. Change the 7 to 11, and you're set! Or, if redbirds must be used, have "red" and "green" trains (marker lights) plus the usual diamond. Give the "<7> Flushing Express" sign some use, not just on the 2 or 3 trains that go express in both directions middays, and retire the "<7><-- Express-Local -->(7)" signs.
I was wondering if any of the transit professionals could share with the rest of the board why they chose a profession in rail transit. From what I have heard most transit professionals are not railfans and usually look down upon railfans with distain and distrust. Why do people become transit professionals, if not for a love of trains and why do not more railfans become transit professionals?
Both transit and mainline railroad personnel [there are exceptions thankfully] have a tendency to look down on railfans wondering why they bother. Why do people choose this career? For the most part railroads generally pay the highest wages for the level of education required. That's my opinion, but the only decent wages I ever made were on railroads. It is sad that so many rail people hate the railroad, I met too many both on NYCT and in the west. Thankfully not the majority, but too many. The majority do it for a living and try their best; but indeed most railroads do have some railfan personnel.Many railfans have an education that earns them more money and uses their degree; others just don't want to do it full time for a living. And many with college degrees work on the railroad because there aren't enough jobs for them nor good enough wages in their field.
It seemed to pass unremarked, but a few days ago nycsubway.org got its 1,000,000th hit. Congrats Mr. Pirmann and watch out Amazon!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Exaulted leader Dave, does you counter have IP logs? I'd love to know who the lucky nycsubway.orger was.
I couldn't correlate the 1,000,000 hit to /index.html as tracked by the database to an apache log entry. I'd suspect based on probability s/he came from AOL or WebTV (the two largest sources of hits to the site) which is virtually untracable past that point.
-Dave
That's an amazing number for a privately-run website. (To put it in perspective - My LIRR History Website gets about 600 hits a week. At that rate it will take about 32 years to reach one million!)
By the way, check out the new stuff I just added.
Well, actually, you're referring the hits counter on the main page only! The server does around a million http transactions ("hits") a week when you count all the web pages, Subtalk and other CGI, and images. Web pages including Subtalk and other scripts is about 275,000 hits a week, images account for the rest. The page footer counters are a little off since it doesn't count pages retrieved by caches (either your own cache or one that your ISP, like AOL, might have in place) and occasionally I have fubared the database and lost some hits. But it's an interesting milestone considering we had our 5 year anniversary at about the same time.
Thanks for noticing!
-Dave
[It seemed to pass unremarked, but a few days ago nycsubway.org got its 1,000,000th hit. Congrats Mr. Pirmann and watch out Amazon!]
Funny you mentioned Amazon ... there was an anecdote about how Donald Trump, at a low point in his career when he was $500 million in debt, pointed to a skell and said something to the effect that the skell was $500 million richer than he himself was. By that line of reasoning, Subtalk, which takes in no money, is immeasurably richer than Amazon, which has close to $1 billion in annual revenues but enormous and increasing losses :-)
Try to use that reasoning to get some v.c. :-)
-Dave
I was driving along 18Av and I passed by McDonald Ave. As I looked up at the station, I saw a Slant 40 parked in the moddle track. Does anybody know what it was doing there????
3Train#2119Mike
It may have been a school car train.This is where new train operators and conductors learn the ropes. In addition, experienced employees go through this process via the refresher course.
Anybody know when they will be calling from the list for conductors. I just got my results today........
3Train#2145Mike
Say, Mike.
I just got mine, too.
BTW, I didn't see you at the Transit Museum today. How about going there on lunch hour tomorrow?
Doug aka BMTman
Today i just receive a result for NYCT Conductor & i got 85% on the test but i was very suprise that my list number is 3399. I just want to know how many people had pass the test & i know 25,000 people has apply for Conductor last year. I have a feeling that i think more people have fail the Conductor Test. Any body know how many people pass the conductor test??????????
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
PS: Early today i saw R142A Kawasaki #7236-#7240 on Track 20 at Unionport Yard.
I received mine today also. My score was 86.250 list number 2563. After reading the back of the form, I noticed that the eligible list will remain in existence for one year. Does this mean that after one year, the list is finished and a series of new test will start again?
Not necessarily. The list life can be extended for up to 4 years beyond that original one year. I took the CR test in Nov 1993 and wasn't called until Dec 1997 and I had a score of 96 and was ranked #800.
When a list is established, has this list been "establihed" it will last a year just like every civil service list in NYC. But a list can be renewed each year for a max of four years.
Long time ago I took the Stockworker test (still in HS) and scored at 97.6% and my list number was 93.
Rember even though people claim veterans or disabled vetrans bonus points (up to 10) and get a list number using them, they can change their mind since you can only use the bonus ONCE for one test only and your list number will change.
Even though I scored in the 90's, I'm number 6699. So try and relax as I doubt those numbers are the actual "pick" order.
Doug aka BMTman
Ooooh, just missed! Maybe if you had scored one point lower!
Um ... you mean eleven points lower, right? :)
--Mark
Actually, I guess I meant one point HIGHER on the test score,
thinking that there must be many people tied at each integer
score, so one more point might mean 11 numbers less on the
file number. Anyway, you got the intent.
It is indeed the actual pick order. That's how civil service works. Of course, many of those ahead of you may find other employment, may not be capable of doing the job, may not meet the physical requirements, may be in jail, etc...
-Hank
Civil Service follows the 1 in 3 rule. If you have a position to fill in a title with an established list you can "call" the next three people on the list and interview them. You can pick one of the three, you do not have to take next person with the highest list number.
So if number 21, 22 and 23 are called and you take 22 the next call will choose from 21, 23 and 24.
Of course when many lists come out years after the test people don't answer the call or have moved on to bigger and better things. Also don't forget the Committee of Manifest Errors who will be overturning disqualifications and issuing people list numbers during the whole life of the list (this happens mostly with Education/Experience tests).
I took the 1988 Bus Operator/Conductor combined test. Scored a 95% or something with a list number of 2367. I was called for bus operator in 1990 (turned down no License) and conductor in 1993 (turned down couldn't afford the pay cut).
I was on the last Computer Associate test in 1993, list was annoucned in 1996, I was 107.5 with a 76.167 score (all E/E Education and Experience), the list was establihed in 1999 and they never reached me list expired two months ago. The new test is now in 2001.
As you can see 6 YEARS from when the test was given until they establihed the list.
I got a 93.75 and my list # is 520.
-Mark
What also counts toward your list numberis when you filed. If 50 people get the same test score, the tie breaker is when the person filed. If one person filed on the first day and the other on the fifth day, the person that filed on the first day will be ahead of the one who filed on the fifth day. Should filling the persons filded on the same day, then it goes by the time the appilcation form was recived and stamped. A person who's form was stamped at 8:00 A.M. with the same test score will
be ahead of a person who filed 8:00 + 10 seconds.
I can see you slamming people in the doors. LOL
I got a 95% and my list number is 227. Finished the test in 57 minutes and I didn't even study! Oh well...
I want either the "L" or the "Q" with an option for some O/T. (JUST KIDDING)
wayne
Congratulations! Looks like we'll have another TA employed SubTalker mighty soon!
That is - if my current employer will allow me some per diem work and I can actually get a little O/T, otherwise it's a 48% pay cut.
Reality check!
WAYNE
You can get the overtime if you really want it. Let us know when you start.
Is that an offer in good standing, Alex? I would gladly make an extra trip each day.
Benefits - BIG COOKIE - can I get medical/Rx coverage for my wife and do I have to pay for it AND if so how much?
wayne
I got a 95% too!!!!!! But my # is 275......:(:)
3TM
BTW, whenver I get called, the lines I want is:
IRT: Anything but prefer the 3 or 4 (My home lines) :):)
The 7 line. Especially the express.....
BMT: The L (my home line as well). N and R
IND: Anything except for the G and maybe the E line...
3Train#1977Mike
Around New Lots on the IRT you have some options. There are Jobs on the No.2,3,4,5 Lines that start out of there.
You'll be able to pick the L in a couple of years. It's a low seniority line on the P.M tour. You'll have to wait a little longer for the Q.
here is the next step:
1- They may call you for an interview
2- You will be called for a drug test and given a 30 page form to fill out and return.
3- You will get called for medical and assuming you pass, you'll be sworn in (assuming documentation is OK) and told when to report for training.
4- The day before training you may be told to report to a location to be specified for more paperwork- emergency notifications, ID photos, Outside employment(which has to be approved.)
Medical includes:
hearing and vision screenings, medical history survey form, over 50 they do an EKG. If they find anything they dont like you will be placed on medical hold and told the clear the hold or if it is a permanent condition you would not pass medical.
Unfortunately I have been put on medical hold for conductor but will remain as a Station Agent.
I remind all of those who took the test:
You will work strange hours and will have no choice for the first year. The only chocie you **might** have is A or B Division. You can forget Saturday and Sunday off. You can forget about Holidays off.
Good luck to all
When i got a call for NYPD Traffic Agent 2 years ago & it was a pain in the ass going thought all the papers about me & my background. I knew im not going to get the job because of my hearing problem & they did hold me for almost a year. I found out that i pass all my drug test, background about my self, employments history except my hearing test. I have a feeling that if i get a call for Conductor in the future & if my hearing test failing than i don't know what to do next. Well hope i will have this job & i will cross my finger.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
BTW: If any one apply for NYPD??? than don't go for it because it a pain in the ass to do all the paper & sometime the persons who work for NYPD got a bad attitude.
What kind of hearing problem do you have. I have an 80% loss in my right ear and wear a hearing aid. It does a pretty good job. You might consider that if you really want that conductor's job! the problem with the hearing aid is no insurance will cover it, and the average one costs $1000 to $1600.
Good luck to you, subfriend.
Chuck Greene
The transit authority will not hire a new employee who has any significant hearing loss; unless it's for a non-safety sensitive job.
I work right down the hall from the NYPD Traffic Enfocrement School. They were in a building owned by the Board of Ed (49 Flatbush Ave Ext) that we turned into an Alt. High School so they gave up MY OFFICE SPACE (w/window) and put them at Queens Plaza a few years ago. Friday they were doing their military drills "Right Face, Left Face, PREEESSENT ARMS".. Laughable... Couldn't get any work done and that was through two closed doors. This class just started, now the candy and soda machines are all empty. Our MIS thrives on Diet Coke... oh well. Am I rambling?
Present arms? Please tell me that's just a euphemism for
the ticket book. Please tell me they aren't giving guns
to meter maids.
and given a 30 page form to fill out and return.
30 pages?!?! What do they possibly want to know that takes so many pages to fill out?
--Mark
For 1 your past 10 years work history, which includes all jobs and how you supported yourself if unemployed. This includes employer's names and addresses, dates of employment and reasons for leaving.
#2 past 10 years residency.
#3 any summonses you received must be paid and you must have proof they are paid.
Also make sure your name on your drivers license or state issued ID matches your Social Security card exactly including middle initials.
Not just the lasdt 10 years but every job since High School!
How far back do those tickets go? The last one I had was in November 1995, Nassau county. I don't have any documentation on it.
wayne
I had to show proof of a paid summons that I was issued 10 yrs. prior. If you don't list it and they find out they can fire you for falsifying your application. While on probation for the first year they do a background investigation.
Also the fingerprinting fee is $50 postal M.O.
Same at the Board of Ed. This is for a non-teaching job, the forms are thick. We have to list EVERY place you have lived and every Educational institution you went back to Kindergarden.
Not only that you have to pay DCAS for the backround check and you have to pay for your own fingerprinting. DCAS backround check fee is dependant on your propsed salary, about $10 per grand you earn, the finger printing is $180, POSTAL MONEY ORDERS ONLY Please.
Ohh, title change/raise?? Fill it all out and another DCAS money order but the fingerprinting fee is waived but if it is more than 5 years you need to be printed again.
They will probably want to know every car I've twisted the rollsigns in or signed my name to
w_a_y_n_e
They will probably want to know every car I've twisted the rollsigns in or signed my name to.
In your case that's no problem... all written down in your little black book :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Saw something odd at 42nd (downtown express) from 34st at approx 2:35. Went to check it out after headlights turned to taillights, upon arrival I saw a redbird 2 half in the station. The front half of train was already cleared of passengers. When I got there the downtown platform was being cleared (futile at first because trains kept stopping on the local track). Power was then cut to the downtown express after all other trains were pulled off. Uptown expresses were routed via the local, uptown platform was cleared (trains kept stopping for a while, too). Back half of redbird train that hit the person was evacuated. From my observation from the uptown platform (before they asked everyone to leave) the person appeared to be in one piece, in between the rails. Trains were instructed to bypass 42nd until about 3:30 PM (weird to see Times Square completely empty). The train involved was in R-142s spot.
Saw about 7 cars (Heritage) in Sunnyside yard, one of which looks completely different from the rest (no Orange-blue paint). I thought AMTRAK only borrowed during holidays!
BTW: About a year ago around this time I saw a 7 car MARC train headed up by a MARC AEM-7 arrive in Newark (discharge only, or I would have actually ran and bought a ticket), discharge many passengers, and continue to NY. Coincidence?
PS: I have seen a lot of MARC over the years (Bilevels in Yonkers and Newark, Heritages in Sunnyside and Newark, Horizons in Philly), but never in Maryland.
Amtrak rents equipment from MARC, SEPTA and NJT in crush periods, not only cars, but motors. Especially during Thanksgiving and Christmas/New Years, you can see Amtrak trains headed by MARC and SEPTA motors, ATK AEM7's heading solid trains of MARC or SEPTA/NJT cars and almost every combination under the sun.
Makes for very interesting watching and photography.
And Thanksgiving Sunday of 1998, 3 ConnDOT former SPV2000's and a CSX business car, as well as everything mentioned by Dan Lawrence, were on Amtrak trains going through Frankford Junction.
Just a somewhat humorous comment on the motors from everybody. When the corridor commuter agencies (MARC, SEPTA and NJT) decided to buy motors to work their trains, Amtrak mandated that anything they bought had to be AEM7 compatable. The agencies bitched up a storm - until the rental payments came rolling in. Funny how money changes people's opinions, isn't it.
Amtrak borrowed a CSX business car and let the masses ride in it? That was quite a treat for some lucky folks!
[Amtrak borrowed a CSX business car and let the masses ride in it?]
I wouldn't make that assumption; unless one knows who was on the car, one can only speculate.
And Thanksgiving Sunday of 1998, 3 ConnDOT former SPV2000's and a CSX business car
Ironic, considering the problems Amtrak had with the SPV2000's, that they would end of depending on them again!
The SPV 2000's in question are now depowered trailers vs. several years ago when they were new and self powered. When they were new, they were known as: "Seldom Powered Vehicles."
The July-Aug Issue has a article on how many yearly passengers. Here goes. "Although a giant by US Standards. New York's subway is outranked by many metro perations around the world. Passengers by year in Billions (Source Jane s Urban Transport System 1997-98) Moscow 3.2 Mexico City 1.5 Paris 1.1 Hong Kong 0.8 London 0.8 Sao Paolo 0.7 Tokly 0.6 NYC 0.5 Singapore 0.3 What suprises me is Singapore with just 2 lines and only 3 million people
New York City is 1.3 billion. 1.0 billion was about the low, and 2.0 billion was the high. The figure is incorrect.
Ever see how they pack trains in Singapore?
I have ... it's not THAT crowded, but it IS expensive to drive in the CBD during rush hours - for many, prohibitively so. (There's a surcharge to drive in the CBD during peak hours to encourage people to use mass transit ... and they do!)
--Mark
If you read this article more closely, you'd see that they're actually refering to the PATH system.
London figures for 1999-2000, just published in "LONDON TRANSPORT's" last Annual Report, updated to: 0.927.
WILLIE JAMES TO RETIRE
Peace,
ANDEE
9 CAUGHT PLAYING metroCARDS
Peace,
ANDEE
i was just checking to see when they are repeating "a walk around brooklyn" tonight on channel 13, when i noticed a listing for a show called "subway q & a" on channel 16 on cablevision at 8:30 tonight (which is also the starting time for "a walk around brooklyn")... it is described as "people on subway respond to offbeat questions"... is it anything of interest to people here, or just another lame attempt of cablevision to be funny?
i know, i have my nerve to complain about lame humor
although the rock around the clock post was good
and the captain queeg post was pretty good
jersey mike's posts almost make me seem normal
i know...too much scrolling text... it's stupid
The correct answer is: JUST ANOTHER LAME ATTEMPT BY CABLEVISION TO BE FUNNY, do not waste your time
Peace,
ANDEE
What channel is 16 over on the horrible monopoly system (aka Cablevision)?
The show "Subway Q&A" is listed as under Ch. 70 METG (MetroGuide I think) on Time Warner.
MetroGuide or Metro channel
08/11/2000
MSG Metro Channel usually broadcasts TV shows from the past dealing with New York City as a focal point. TV shows aired now are "Car 54 Where Are You", "Welcome Back Kotter", "Brooklyn Bridge" to name a few.
Bill "Newkirk"
Dear Readers,
Thanks to a bunch of folks here, I may be able to find my Canal
St.Station signs underground. I'll need to photograph them, so...
any ideas on that. I'll have a cheap disposable camera and am
concerned about getting enough light and a good enough angle to use
the image.
Check elseware on nycsubway.org and check out the FAQ's. The NYCT's regs are there.
It would help more if you use 800 film. That's what I always use when taking pics underground.
fuji or agafa or kodak or max ilford black & white 800 ??
i dont like kodak max 800 i would rather use kodak gold 400 & 1000!!
have you tried any digital cameras of any type and or description as of yet ?
i would like to invite you to my yahoo club.
Mass Transit Commentary ..... also yahoo photos taken with mostly kodak 400 http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
click on los angeles rail system 1 2 3 4 & help yourself to all
of the thumnails aprox 35 each then your comments please & i thank you !
800 speed is too grainy - I use 400; it makes a smoother picture and is OK for action shots too.
KODAK GOLD MAX 400 exclusively.
wayne
almost all of my transit photography is done with KODAK 400 type film
is the kodak gold better ??
i also hope to shoot with kodak 1000 . I sure do miss kodak gold 1600!!
this is the results of using kodak gold 400 !!
check this site out ( my pics of the los angeles rail )
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I do not think fuji film could have dont this !! ( thanks )
I have to agree with you there - 800 speed doesn't always cut it. 400 OTOH is pretty good. Do you think I'd still get good results w/400 speed and no flash on the mosaics along the Canarsie line?
I got a tour of the Coney Island Yard last tuesday and took the West End Line home. The pictures of the yard, master tower and it's motor, overhaul and truck shop are now on my website. I have a picture of an R32 completly stripped of it's floor and seats in the overhaul section. It is amazing how much work has to be done just to replace the floors. Also, about 20 pictures shot out of the front window of an R32 GO'd N train running express on the West End were added.
Enjoy,
Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks- A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
http://www.zdeno.com
PLEASE NOTE: I am posting this message around 11AM. The picutres should be finish uploading and the website will finish updating arounf 1PM please do not visit until then.
That R-32 getting the new floor - it's almost like it's getting another overhaul!
--Mark
Just visited your site. Great pics!! But would like to see pictures with better focus if possible. And more route signs from the front/rear or side of the train cars. Otherwise great site!
Nice pictures, Harry!
This summer Jersey Mike is sticking it to the airlines and it going to travel a wedding in Topeka Kansas via AMTRAK (bum bum bum). Not only is this trip about 200$ cheaper (round trip for 2 people) it only takes an extra day or two stuck on some of the best railfanning territory in the country. I need help from all you SubTalkers out there for the following problems:
1) What is the best way to sleep in one of those Amtrak seats
2) Should I sleep at all
3) What can I do durring a 5 hour layover in Chicago that is transit related
4) Do superliners have a railfan window out the back or it is covered by training freight cars
5) What type of food should I try to eat in Chicago
6) What are the railfan oppurtunities in Topeka
7) Is it rude to bring your scanner to a wedding
try to stop in at the Pulaski, Cicero or Central station. These are all on the Green line towards Harlem Lake. Let me know what you think of them and when you get back to NYC, you get to apreciate what you have!!!
As for the scanner, go for it at least one person will have fun at the wedding.. Enjoy Chicago.
Marty.
You're actually going to ride in a coach on a three day trip?
How much more is the room?
How much more is the room?
I don't know buy I'm sure than I'm willing to pay. Remember in order to spite the airlines I'll have to travel for less $. Amtrak seats are quite large and I sure I could sleep in one of those facing seats at the end.
BTW, if you were on a train going over some of the hottest railfan terrority in the country how could you even think about sleeping.
*I'm sure it MORE than I'm willing to pay. Stupid brain hicups.
[BTW, if you were on a train going over some of the hottest railfan terrority in the country how could you even think about sleeping.]
It's easy to sleep after dark when you're tired and you can't see much out the window.
That said, I haven't spent the night in coach. I'm fortunate enough that my company paid for Slumbercoach (Heritage) and whatever Amtrak calls the superliner roomette equivalent. I've gone to Pittsburgh and back (Philly) on the Three Rivers out and Broadway back, Indianapolis and back on the Cardinal, Birmingham and back on the Crescent and Chicago and back via DC (after the demise of the Broadway) on the Capitol. On the westbound Cardinal it got dark in western Virginia, but on the way back it got light in Ashland, KY, and the New River gorge was magnificent. I thoroughly enjoyed every trip (of course I'm a foamer and my company paid for it) and the dining car meals are a highlight of each trip (that's where I met the escalator fan who had gone to Moscow to ride a big escalator).
Ride els in Chicago for your five hours.
Do you really want to know Pigs?? A bit over $200 (thats NY-Chi on the Lake Shore..) (BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!) Actually for two persons, its a pretty good deal [They only charge you once for the room..] Considering you get meals with it [Plus you get to wait in those Metropolitan Lounges in Chi and Philly], you get boarded separately from the coach rabble, get to use a shower etc,etc.....And if you are going on the Three Rivers,it is a bit cheaper.....[I think...]
[Actually for two persons, its a pretty good deal [They only charge you once for the room..]]
The Superliner sleeper that I took on the Capitol was TINY! I travelled alone and put my suitcase where a second person would sleep (there's no space in the end wall like in the Heritage slumbercoaches). A couple was in the compartment across the aisle, and they had to store their luggage in the luggage area at the end of the car; two people and a suitcase wouldn't fit.
Just from heresay alone, I have heard the Superliner Economy Bedroom is pretty tiny, but for some reason, the new Viewliner Standard rooms are relatively comfy...go figure...as the saying goes..I shall let you know...
I was in a Viewliner sleeper to/from Orlando just a few days shy of a year ago. They are tiny, but I marvel about the utilization of space thru out the car.
I found the sizes of Superliner I and Viewliner standard (economy) rooms to be comparable (i.e., both were tiny), but the Viewliner felt better to be in because of the extra row of windows, a brighter interior color scheme, and generally better interior lighting. In addition, the Viewliner bunk stays horizontal and hugs the ceiling when not in use; my impression was that the Superliner bunk sort of folded upwards when not in use but occupied more space than in the Viewliner.
There is a luggage compartment above the door in the Viewliner that extends out over the hallway. This is a brilliant use of space, but I found it difficult to maneuver a moderately loaded full-sized suitcase in and out of there. There are no common luggage areas in a Viewliner car. The Superliners have basically no room for luggage in the compartment itself, but have a common luggage rack downstairs where everyone in the car stowed their bags.
Both types of rooms do have sufficient room for a small bag or two to be lying around, so what most people did was to pack a separate bag with everything they'll need for the duration of the train ride, and leave their larger luggage stowed away and untouched until they got off.
I'm taking coach class from Portland Oregon,i'm 1 year too young to be in a standard bedroom(darn age limits)
I'm taking coach class from Portland Oregon,i'm 1 year too young to be in a standard bedroom(darn age limits)
What is the limit?
And what possible logic do they have for having an age limit on a room? Apart from blind ageism.
My suggestions for questions 3 and 5:
3: Ride the Ravenswood "L", now known as the Brown Line. Board at Quincy and Wells, a couple of blocks east of Union Station. It's a scenic trip.
5: Chicago-style pizza. The best pizza in the world is made in Chicago. Don't pass up your opportunity here. Choice two would be the Greek food. Several excellent Greek restaurants are on Halsted Street several blocks west of Union Station.
What makes Chicago style from like New York style or Pizza Hut style.
Don't waste your time with the pizza. New York has much better pizza than Chicago. Chicago style pizza has about a 2 inch layer of cheese that gets stuck in your throat and you start to gag.
Instead you must try an Italian Beef or Hot Dogs, which are made better in Chicago than New York. For Italian Beef go to Johnny's in
Elmwood Park which is the best in the world. However unless you have a car, it is difficult to get to (no rapid transit) but it would worth the trek. Or you could try Mr. Beef (its great, but not amazing like Johnny's) at 666 N Orleans, about a mile from Union Station.
For excellent Hot Dogs go to Portillo's at Clark and Ontario or Demon Dogs right under the Red Line El at Fullerton.
I disagree, Chicago style Pizza, with its thick and soft crust is definitely worth a try.
One should even try it if given an oppurtunity in another city.
Chicago-style pizza is an entirely different breed in itself. Comparing it to NYC-style or (GAG!) Pizza Hut is like comparing the Queen Elizabeth II to a canoe. (Sorry, couldn't think of an adequate railfan analogy.)
Here's a listing from my website about one of my favorite pizzerias, Gino's East (now in a new location at the corner of Clark and Ontario):
Gino's East
160 East Superior
(312) 943-1124Chicago is world-famous for its pizza. Don't give me any of that national franchise shit, or the cardboard with ketchup on it they call pizza in New York City. When it comes to pizza that is the shape and weight of a small manhole cover, each slice enough to be a meal in itself, all other cities must bow down before Chicago. This is a city where ordering pizza from Domino's is tantamount to mocking the pope. Each pizzeria in Chicago has its own feircely loyal following, and picking a favorite can be dangerous business. However, when the pizza gods looked down upon Chicago, they smiled and gave us Gino's East. Crust, sauce, cheese, and trimmings are all perfect, and the restaurant itself is a cool place with lots of character. Don't be discouraged by the long line of people out front. You see, Chicagoans will not stand in line outside in freezing weather for just any pizza; the wait is but a small price to pay for what awaits inside. Be sure to bring a black magic marker -- you'll soon find out why.
Other good pizzerias are Giordano's at Rush and Superior and the original Pizzeria Uno at Ohio and Wabash.
Another good place to grab an excellent Chicago-style comfort food (and located not too far from Union Station) is Greektown Gyros at Jackson and Halsted:
Greektown Gyros
239 South Halsted
(312) 236-9310Ahhh, how many early mornings I've stumbled into this place after a long night of working in the studio at school. Open 24 hours, its neon signs shimmering like a mirage at the corner of Jackson and Halsted, Greektown Gyros is the Promised Land to sleep-deprived UIC students, cops, and other people stuck on the third shift. Without a doubt the best gyros in town at any time of day or night, as well as home to a good selection of other greasy delicacies. As an added bonus, an adjacent bar makes it possible to have a nice cold beer with your meal. For those of you who think of the Deep South as anything below Kinzie Street, Lincoln Town Gyros is the equally-good sister location up in Lincoln Park.
I also strongly recommend Mangino's Italian Subs at Lake and Wabash. Simply the best subs on earth, and it has outdoor seating on Lake Street which provides an excellent view of the trains passing by on the L overhead.
Best lines on which to railfan while in Chicago, in no particular order:
1) The Brown Line to Kimball: Spectacular view going over the Chicago River as well as good views of several North Side neighborhoods, and the line has plenty of tight curves if you're into that sort of thing.
2) The Orange Line to Midway Airport: The CTA's newest line, with a nice smooth ride and fairly fast trains. Excellent views of the city's gritty industrial areas of the Southwest Side, as well as the "bungalow belt" further out.
Both lines also go around the Loop, which would be cardinal sin for you to pass up. :-)
Enjoy Chicago... I hope to be there myself over Labor Day weekend.
-- David
Boston, MA
Don't you live in Chicago? How are the pizza places you mentioned for crowdedness? Would it be better to carry out. If you are in town around the 24th we could arrange a meeting. I love to meet a SubTalk Chicago correspondant.
I moved from Chicago to Boston on Memorial Day weekend. Probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life so far, but something I needed to do if I ever want to finish my degree and become an architect. I hope to move back to Chicago the minute I have a diploma in my hand.
Gino's East and Giordano's have decent seating, but Uno's can be a bit crowded depending on the time of day.
I was actually hoping to go back to Chicago for a visit this coming weekend, but that has been put off until Labor Day weekend. This is the second time this trip has been postponed for some reason or another, and even Labor Day is beginning to look doubtful, as I need to vacate this apartment by September 1st and I still don't have a new place lined up here. (The local housing market here is utterly pathetic, and it's begining to make me really hate Boston.)
If I haven't been able to secure a place to live in Boston within the next week or so, my Labor Day visit to Chicago just may end up becoming a one-way trip.
-- David
Boston, MA
hey david... why didn't you tell me you were having trouble finding a place?... i'm in brooklyn also... give me a buzz if you need a place to crash for a couple of days...
i am sorry to hear that boston's tight housing market is getting to you... i hope you find something that meets your needs...
Jersey Mike and mike are 2 diffferent people who post here.
i was just being a little informal... to his friends jersey mike is just plain mike... besides, anyone who posts here on subtalk needs help
Thank you Bill for pointing this out.
1) What is the best way to sleep in one of those Amtrak seats
Never been on one.
2) Should I sleep at all
DO you want to railfan or sleep?
3) What can I do durring a 5 hour layover in Chicago that is transit related
ride on any of the CTA lines. You probably could make it to the end of 1 line before the layover ends
4) Do superliners have a railfan window out the back or it is covered by training freight cars
Again, no clue
5) What type of food should I try to eat in Chicago
Whatever you desire. I am a railfan, not a restaurant critic
6) What are the railfan oppurtunities in Topeka
Dont know
7) Is it rude to bring your scanner to a wedding
Only if you don't scan during the wedding or parties.
1) What is the best way to sleep in one of those Amtrak seats
They're actually very comfortable, far better than even First Class on any airline.
2) Should I sleep at all
Your call, but probably a good idea since there won't be much to look at when it's dark out.
3) What can I do durring a 5 hour layover in Chicago that is transit related
See my other posting on this thread.
4) Do superliners have a railfan window out the back or it is covered by training freight cars
No railfan window at all.
5) What type of food should I try to eat in Chicago
See my other posting.
6) What are the railfan oppurtunities in Topeka
No clue.
7) Is it rude to bring your scanner to a wedding
Not if you wear headphones.
-- David
Boston, MA
4) Do superliners have a railfan window out the back or it is covered by training freight cars
No railfan window at all.
BZZZT! I've ridden Superliner equipment on the Cardinal and there is a window out both the front and rear of the upper deck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting. In all the Superliners I've seen at Union Station, I don't recall seeing a single railfan window (nor any windows at the ends of the Superliner cars, for that matter). But if you've seen them, I'll believe you.
BTW, who are the Superliners built by? I think they're very sleek and comfortable, and from an aesthetic point of view, I don't think anything quite matches the look of a long train of Superliners being pulled by a couple of Genesis P-40 locomotives.
-- David
Boston, MA
The origional lot was built by Pullman in 1978-1980 and were the last cars manufactured by that company. In 1993-94 Bombardier made a second batch using the plans borrowed from Pullman.
Class Superliner
Pullman Standard/Bombardier double-decker coach
Built 1978~80, 1993~94
Maximum permitted speed 100mph
Number Series Amtrak 32 000~32 199 (Sleeper), 33 000~33 199 (Sightseer Lounge), 34 000~34 199 (Coach), 38 000~38 199 (Diner), 39 000~39 199 (Transition Sleeper)
who/when were the amfleets,heritiges,california,horison, acela exp built?
Amfleet info is here.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lexcie/tops-amt-coach.htm
The window's in the door at the end of the aisle, at least on the coaches and the snack bar/dome. I don't know about the sleepers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(4) the ny-chicago amfleets do!
Not past Harrisburg. Amtrak Frieght Train 41 has intermodal cars coupled on the back.
The best way to sleep in Amtrak seats is curling up, using the footrest and assuming whatever position makes you comfortable, they are plenty roomy. I've never found any reason not to sleep on any intercity transit, never even got rolled on a Greyhound.
I'd like to suggest you go a bit out of your way and ride the Capitol Ltd. westbound. The ride is scenic, especially around Harper's Ferry...great.The later part of it is ex-NY Central.
Another post has mentioned riding the Brown line L, a must. You get to ride the only el that runs thru a central business district. Onretun trip if you have time get off the Brown line at Belmont and take a red line train to Howard, over a 4 track embnkment line; then the red line back downtown for a snappy State St. subway ride, most of it is outdoors though. Look at the map for connections for Union Station...shortest is to walk thru the tunnel from one of the downtown stations to the Dearborn subway, if you have time ride the 54/Cermak train out to the end of the line; if not get off at Clinton and its a 2 or 3 block walk back to Union Station. The CTA el system is great. Chicago" L "is the last letter in my handle.
1. As others have posted, the seats are pretty comfortable...HOWEVER do bring a neck pillow of some kind, and something to help keep you warm, as Amtrak coaches are notoriously COLD at night. Also, if possible, the middle of the car is a bit more comfortable than over the wheel trucks..but it is a fairly small difference [What train are you going on? When? I am going on the Lake Shore on 9/7.....return on the 12th....]
2. Depends on which train you are on Three Rivers is a day train, right??
3. I am TRYING to figure a five day stay out!
5. Whatever you do, DO save room for dinner on the Southwest Chief [AND breakfast on your way back!]...ALSO - remember - that if you are going on Three Rivers, that it DOESN'T have a full service dining car..only a lounge/snack bar, so coming back might be when you might what to pig out on Chicago food...{how long until Amtrak finally unbends and gets some new dining cars for the East???
6. Topeka [I BELIEVE...] is still home to both BNSF and UP lines of various importance...[Amtrak is running there on BNSF..ths old Santa Fe Main ...]
7 Ask you wife about that one!!
I'm taking the 3 Rivers Out and Back. Its my Uncle's weding and I'm going with my dad. My train leaves Philly at 3 PM and arrives Chicago 8:30 and then my connecting train leaves 3:20 PM. Do you think I'll be able to catch the curve in the daylight on my outbound trip? To avoid Amtrak prices I will probably take along a duffle bag of snacks. Does anybody want me to take a special picture of something in Chicago?
I have always enjoyed dining in a dining car to be among the highlights of a rail journey. I strongly suggest that you eat dinner in the diner on the Southwest Chief. For me it's always been well worth the modest expense, even when I paid for it myself.
I HAVE TO SAY THAT YOUR GUYS POSTS RECENTLY HAVE MOSTLY BEEN ABOUT NYC AND I LIVE IN CHICAGO, SO I HAVEN'T POSTED IN A LONG TIME, BUT JERSEY MIKE, LISTEN TO ME, I LIVE HERE AND RIDE THE CTA ALL OF THE TIME AND LOVE IT!
During your five hour layover, follow the exit signs toward either Adams or Jackson street, Either is fine. Walk three blocks east (TOWARDS AND OVER THE CHICAGO RIVER.) from Union Station on Adams or Jackson to the Quincy/Wells Elevated Station.
The entrance is under the L tracks between Adams and Jackson. You can't miss it, the sings for the stairs near Adams and Jackson say to walk a 1/2 block down for entrance, no entry here.
Take the Brown Line, follow the signs for brown line only this side. Ride it 20 to 30 minutes to Belmont Street. Transfer to the Red line by walking to the other side of the same platform, don't cross over or under to the other one. You can't miss the transfer with the new automated announcements. It will be the stop after Wellington. Note the speed the brown line has compared to the Red between Fullerton and Belmont. The Red and Brown meet back together at Belmont after Fullerton even though the brown stops at 2 stations and the red doesn't. The Red has a 35 mph speed limit and the brown a 55 mph, plus tbey hold the red trains a minute or two for the brown to catch up sometimes depending on the time it takes at the 2 stations.
Ride the Red Line 20-30 minutes to the amazing Howard Street facility.
Walk onto the transfer bridge between platforms and be ready to take pictures of the awesome yard and facility with purple line trains elevating over the yard. This is the only yard in my opinion that compares to Coney Island in the U.S.
Walk back to the platform where you got off the northbound train and board a Yellow Line train for Skokie. This ride takes about 8 minutes and is non-stop for about 5 miles. This swift line is really cool with half the line elevated with third rail and 1/2 overhead wire with street crossings. Re-Enter by crossing the tracks after the train enters the turn-around and ride back to Howard. THIS CAN BE DONE ON WEEKDAYS ONLY, SKOKIE TRAINS ONLY OPERATE ON WEEKDAYS.
At Howard stay on the same platform the Skokie train let you off on and ride the Red line towards 95/Dan Ryan all the way back into downtown past Belmont and Fullerton. It dives into the subway after Fullerton and runs under State Street downtown. Get off at Jackson, the stop after Monroe. It will be quick, there is only about 15 seconds between the 2 stops on the continuous platform. Follow the signs to exit the station on Adams and walk back East to your train at Union station. The Walk is 7 blocks. The first street you hit will be Dearborn with NO L tracks over it. If you walk to the 1st street with an L over it, turn around and walk back. Give yourself a good hour for this ride back and walk.
If you have an extra hour or two when riding the red line back and arriving at Belmont, then get off and eat! The 1st intersection on the West side of the tracks in Sheffield. If you hit Halsted, turn around and walk the other way. Walk north on the same (east) side of the street your on up 3 doors to Leonas. This is one of the best neighborhood restaurants in Chicago. This is also in a very exclusive and rich neighborhood. The restuarant is liberal with its dress code and prices, but the food is excellent. Stop in the Leather shop next the the L station entrance on your way back if time allows. Then just follow the same directions for getting off downtown at Jackson as I listed above.
ABOVE ALL ENJOY YOU SHORT, BUT STILL CTA FILLED TIME IN THE 2ND GREATEST CITY IN THE WORLD BEHIND NYC. ON THE 2ND GREATEST TRANSIT SYSTEM, THE CTA.
IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR CONCERNS FEEL FREE TO E-MAIL ME OR POST ON THE BOARD.
ENJOY MY HOME AND PARADISE, CHICAGO!!
The layover is 7 hours, does that make a differance? Plus I'll have like another 4 hour layover on my way back. BTW thank you very much for your help.
7 Hours is even better
My advice to make the trip as easy as possible with entering and exiting the system would be to buy a $5.00 CTA Visitors 1 day pass. They can be purchased at the Amtrak Counter at Union Station. Just ask for a 1 day CTA Pass. If they are out of them, then purchase a CTA card with enough value on it to do what you want at the Quincy/Wells Station for all of your trips on the way there and back. Same fares as NYC $1.50 per ride. It is only .30 for an additional ride in 2 hours, but to be safe put on $1.50 for each time you will enter. The card works like NYC, except instead of swiping, you insert and remove the card from the slot on top of the turnstiles and take it back before entering. Even on your last entrance, otherwise you will get hit with a hard turnstile bar in the stomach. Many of my friends have had this happen to them when they use the final fare on a transit card. It's kind of stupid, but you have to throw out the card yourself if it is expired or has no value on it. The turnstiles don't keep the old cards like DC Metro and BART do.
For your 4 hours comming back between trains, a Blue Line ride to O'hare might be interesting or the Orange Line to Midway, your choice. The Blue is interesting for about 1/2 the trip to O'Hare with Subway, Elevated, Subway portions. Then it gets kind of boring for the other 1/2 of the ride down the Kennedy Expressway Median to O'Hare. The stations are new and nice in the Expressway, and especially O'Hare (subway Station), but the expressway running might get boring and not be worth it with the time restrictions.
The Orange Line is fun because of running parallel to railroads and on old abandoned rail-road right-of-ways the whole way to Midway.
Orange takes Approx. 24 to 39 minutes to Midway. About 1 hour round-trip.
Blue takes about 45 each way, 1:15 round-trip. 1/2 to the 1st expressway median station (Addison) takes about 20 minutes. Walk to the other side of the Addison platform and board a train for 54th/Cermak or Forest Park.
You could accomplish both in the 4 hours (3 or less really) if you are quick, but it might not be worth the risk. 1/2 way to O'Hare and all to Midway might be a good plan just so you don't miss your train.
Going to O'Hare and the Blue Line walk east on Jackson (Over the Chicao River) 6 blocks to the Dearborn Street Subway. NOT STATE STREET WHICH IS 7 BLOCKS WHERE THE RED LINE SUBWAY IS AT. Follow the signs on the platform for trains to O'Hare NOT Forest Park or 54th/Cermak. If you are going to transfer to a Midway Orange Line train, when returning back downtown, get off at the very interesting and cool Clark/Lake Subway/Elevated Facility. Follow the signs to transfer to the Orange Line Midway on the Loop about 4 Floors above you and the subway.
Comming back from Midway take the train the only way it goes to the Loop. Get off at Quincy/Wells and walk the 3 blocks West back to Union Station on Adams or Jackson.
To do just the Orange Line follow the same directions as in the previous post about the brown line, but obviously when you get to Quincy/Wells go to the platform for Orange & Purple Lines, NOT BROWN.
Enjoy your visit.
When do you get back? Tell me what you ended up doing either on the board or by e-mail when you get back from your 9 hours in Chi-Town.
BJ
Go ahead and splurge. How often will you ever get the chance for the ultimate train trip? A hotel room in NYC costs over a $100 bucks a nite and it doesn't even move.
The nicest experience I ever had on a train was lying in bed, looking out the window at the stars as we rocked along somewhere in the Carolinas. (Don't forget to pull the shade down at stations!)
The meals are reasonably priced, the food is good, and everyone gets a table with a view.
Go ahead, treat yourself.
Bill
That's right no more Willie James to kick around anymore. The Daily News reports that he's not seeking re-election. James, 64 and in bad health (maybe related to his diabetes) will try to hand control over to his uinderstudy, Gil Rodriguez. James became a bus driver for the TA in 1967 & President of Local 100 in 1996.
BTW, I've met both of these gentlemen in a social setting. Gil was the quite one, but both dress up nice. Seriously, as a former Teamster i've seen union men put on a show for the troops & walk and talk like the best suit at social gatherings. So, I always left with a good impression of Willy, but then I had nothing to do with him, unionwise.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder how much of his leaving has to do with the looming investigation over improprieties of expense accounts and credit card abuse within the TWU. My understanding is that it'll be a pretty sweeping investigation.
(I wonder how much of his leaving has to do with the looming investigation over improprieties of expense accounts and credit
card abuse within the TWU. My understanding is that it'll be a pretty sweeping investigation.)
Perhaps people are beginning to wonder how the unions could possibly spend all that dues money on services to members. I went to a union meeting and asked if union employees and officials were still stealing. I was told the answer is no. I asked if the dues could be reduced by the amount that was formally stolen. I was told the answer is no. Is the TWU like DC37?
Wheather it's a management or union abuse we'll probally never know.
If New Directions didn't find something to nail him by on, they probally don't have a reason to do it now.
Mr t__:^)
I for one am glad that he is leaving. The union was quite concessionary in it's handling of contract negotiations. Willie has no respect among his members and his leaving has more to do with him being forced out by circumstances than his health. His inner circle has decided not to run for re-election with him in December. His protogé Corrine Scott-Mack was removed from office. His right hand man Arnold Cherry is despised like no other union leader in history for the outright misrepresentation of members in his department. Gil Rodriguiez is yet another MaBSTOA person that the members in the subway divisions will no longer tolerate. Perhaps if he were not a diciple of Sonny Hall's but even then it would be an uphill battle. Yesterday's Daily News exposé about his flagrant abuse of the union's credit card makes Corrine's look amaturish. There's no way he can win in a legitamate election.
This union is ripe with corruption on a scale greater than DC 37. I have held my tongue (keyboard) on this until now. But in the coming weeks New Directions will be releasing more information concerning the graft and back door dealing, the embezzlement and misrepresentation at TWU Local 100. Millions in debt, outstanding loans withdrawn in the Local's name, millions missing and all under the watch of the same basic group of leaders for decades. We take in over $15 million annually in dues. There can only be one explaination: theft. Those credit cards used for personal expenses like vacations and hotels. Air fare, rental cars, topess bars and the like in cities as far away as Alaska and Aruba cannot be justified by a Local officer. An internation officer perhaps, but Gil Rodriguiez as a Local VP expects us to believe he was really organizing bus drivers in Puerto Rico?!
But that's just the tip of the ice berg. There's stories of worse to follow in the next few months as New Directions subpeonas are answerd by the union. Keep your eyes open for them.
My friend and colleague I wish you good luck. One of these days we'll have to get togather and trade stories about my days as a Teamster Shop Steward & some of the things I did just to keep them honest.
Mr t__:^)
>>> some of the things I did just to keep them honest. <<<
Who is "them"? Management or higher union officials?
Tom
Why very high level union officials of course. Unlike the TWU the Teamsters tend to get the job for life once their in, i.e. they would have a officer nomination on a Sunday morning and give dirty looks at anyone who showed up who wasn't "invited". I loved to raise my hand and see how long it would take for them to call on me, then I would give a testimonial of one of the officers ... boy would they be relieved. Meanwhile it was taking all my strength to keep from laughing :-)
To mangement I was just a pain in the ass ... probally had something to do with why they promoted me.
P.S. I also enjoyed myself at a strike (on both sides ... nobody got hurt, just a little sweating from the OTHER side), but that's a story for another day.
BTW, The first thing I learned was that there are two sides to the story with NEITHER being absolutely correct :-(
Mr t
>>> and give dirty looks at anyone who showed up who wasn't "invited" <<<
My father who was a dissident teamster in the 40's and 50's told me stories of union meetings where dissent was met with more than dirty looks. If a member wanted to say something that would be embarrassing to the officials, he would find himself flanked by a couple of goons who would pull him back down when he tried to stand up, and in extreme cases escort him to the door and start him on his way down a flight of steps. At that time union politics was very definitely a contact sport.
Tom
I didn't go to those meetings alone, but that group was pritty tame compared to what you're saying. They wanted what they wanted, so if you pushed hard enough they did push back. They also got a lot of benifits for the members & supported rogue stewards like me, so all in all I was glad to be part of their team. Therefore my objections were just to let them know that they should not forget to keep our interest in mind.
The story I like to tell is when the chief officer would visit my location folks would ask "did you know Bill was here" to which I replyed, "oh yes I went over and kissed his ring" (this was when I had moved to management.
Mr t__:^)
Did the Court St. station ever have a purpose other than a stub at the west end of the Fulton St. IND? Was there supposed to be some second system connection or something?
:)Andrew
A 1940 proposal had the (also proposed)Second Avenue having a northern terminal at Harding Ave in the Bronx, and connecting into the IND Court Street shuttle in Brooklyn.
--Mark
Court Street is also one of a handful of stations (and probably the only terminus in the system) that had a platform length of 600 ft., as opposed to the IND’s standard 660 ft. In my chaining code directory of IND stations, Court Street started at point 781+45 and ended at 787+45. Sounds like 600 ft. to me.
Because it was supposed to be for local trains only?
Yes, but oddly the IND Second System's plans make no mention of any connections to this station. Later plans had it connecting into a Second Ave. line.
Here's an idea I've had for a while to encourage suburb-to-suburb mass transit use:
What if the MTA railroads used a unified fare zone system. Say Hicksville and White Planis (for argument's sake) could both be in "Zone 4" (I would also elimiate that ridiculous gap-laden zone numbering system the LIRR uses today) A trip between the two sations would be like an indirect fare on either railroad: less than the sum of tickets from both stations to the city. And a monthly or weekly would just require the fare from one leg of the trip (the longer one.)
Of course, it's a little faulty now since they use different Manhattan terminals (though that hardly rules it out altogether), but it would be quite useful if they complete that East Side access plan.
:)Andrew
They should create on company, MTA-New York Commuter Railroad with two divisions: Northern Division, Northwestern Division (MN west of Hudson) and Long Island Division (or we can kill off 166 years of history and call it the Eastern Division).
two divisions: Northern Division, Northwestern Division (MN west of Hudson) and Long Island Division
how many divisions?
When I wrote Two divisions, I only thought of Northern and Long Island. When I put in Northwestern, I didn't notice I still had two.
As a sidebar, what do people think of that fare zone numbering system the LIRR uses today? I know at one time it must have had all numers from 1 through 14. But now it's kind of ridiculous how you go from 1 to 3 to 4 to 7 to 9, etc. Is there any reason the LIRR doesn't just renumber the zones and get it over with?
:)Andrew
LIRR should go to POP (proof-of-payment).
If any of you saw the subway map (dated 1997) at http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/route/sub-nit.gif is that how F & G runs? It doesn't seem to match the schedules issued by the TA on their website.
Well, the map is outdated. The E no longer runs express during late nights between Queens Plaza and Jamaica Center. It runs local. The F no longer runs to 21 Street - Queensbridge. It runs to 179 Street local between Queens Plaza. Under normal conditions, a S Train runs from 21 Street - Queensbridge. The current G.O. has the shuttle running between 21 St - Queensbridge and 57 Street/7 Avenue leaving the 57 Street/6 Avenue station closed during night hours. The G no longer runs to 179 Street during late nights. The G runs to Court Square.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
now the only late night express is the D
Is it true they're reopening the South side of the Bridge and closing the North? How long will this last? When will both sides open? When is it going to happen? And how are the D, Q and B getting to Coney Island?
From Summer 2001 to 2004. Look at a map from the mid 80s, extend the S, and that's what's going on. If you do not have a map, here's the deal (direct from the service grid, but modified for current patterns):
<B> 168stBedford Pk Blvd to 34st, Rush Hours, Bronx/Manhattan Local
(D) 205st to 34st, All Times, Bronx/Manhattan Express
(S) 57st-6av21st Queensbridge to Grand St, Manhattan Local
(B) 57st/7th to Coney Island, Manhattan/4ave Express (Skips DeKalb), West End Local
<B> Ditmars Astoria to Coney Island, Rush Hours, Manhattan/4ave Express (Skips DeKalb), Queens/West End Local
(D) 57st/7th to Coney Island, All Times, Manhattan Express, Brighton Local
(Q) 57st/7th to Coney Island, Weekdays, Manhattan/Brighton Express
08/12/2000
" Ditmars Astoria to Coney Island, Rush Hours, Manhattan/4ave Express (Skips DeKalb), Queens/West End Local "
I assume (N) service remains unchanged? Local in Manhattan? As far as the Astoria, express on the "el" structure ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The completion of the south side has been pushed back more than once. It would be nice if it happened next summer. It would bad if the north side then took as long as the south side had.
Seems that you do not have the latest.
Southern segment of the B will be re-designated as the W
Southern part of the D will be the Q local
The Q will run under a Diamond - denoting it as an express
So there will be only 1 line on the Brighton the Q, no express service, on the Brighton in Bklyn? Why the W, why not T?
Why the W? Because its there! (on the rollsign).
Isn't it true that some cars do have T signs? It would be nice to resurrect that marking.
I've never seen one, but I've never had the opportunity to scroll through an entire BMT/IND rollsign. I have seen (X), however, so there's a good chance (T)'s in there too.
08/18/2000
Yes, there's a (T) there. Although a (T) in a white circle in the center of the bottom R-32/38 side rollsign. No other imformation,just the (T). I found this out when I would occasionally visit SBK when the GOH R-32's were returning from M-K. I entered one car and signed it up 57th St/7th Ave - Coney Island - (T), and took a picture of it.
Bill "Newkirk"
W instead of the B for two reasons:
1) To avoid confusion with the northern segment which will run on 6th Ave.
2)Because there is a W on the roll signs and no T.
Q will run as an express (diamond) and a local (Circle).
Does it really make sense for Brighton to have two Bridge/Manhattan Express services while Sea Beach continues to be Tunnel/Local?
Way back when ('50s) when the Brighton Local service ran Via Tunnel and Broadway Local Brighton Line people who wanted to avoid the crowding on the Brighton Express took the local. They were willing to swallow the extra time for a seat.
At this point, nothing is definite but likely to be as you stated. I'm sure he good folks at operations-planning have their reasons. I was not asked for input. Keep in mind that the current plan is based on the H tracks having a capacity of 30 TPH. To this point, no testing has been done and until it is determined that the signals can handle 30 TPH, nothing is fixed in stone.
I thought I was seeing things when I saw the diamond W on some trains. I thought they were upside down M's and was thinking how useless the M would be on the Manhattan Broadway line =)
The other thing...maybe I was just too young, but I don't remember the B in the mid 80's going peak express to Ditmars. I know it existed because I rode it, but always remembered it being local in both directions.
One more thing. Weekdays during non-rush hours the B ran to Queensboro Plaza, is that being thrown around as an idea again when the bridge goes under repairs or is just going to be 57/7 like it was posted before?
Do the slant R-40s have diamond Q signs?
W for West End. And it's yellow for Broadway. And it says Broadway something-or-other on the R32's. I think there is a T on the R32 roll signs tho. A black and white sign in the middle of the curtain with no Manhattan avenue designation as to the route. Also, only us railfans remember the T. W for West End makes logical sense.
I don't think there is a diamond 'Q' sign on any other equipment but the R-68's. I'm pretty sure all the others have a yellow Q and an orange Q, but both in circles. The 'W' sign on the R-32's is a yellow diamond and is denoted 'Astoria/Broadway'.
No, but the old QB signs were diamonds. Why not use them? All of the other line and letter changes are more confusing to passengers than this.
Say, where did you hear this at?
Most people were hoping the West End would become the T because that's what it was 1960-67. But as was pointed out, it's only on R-32/38 signs, in white (It's also on all digital signs, including the R-44/46 sides, with West End routings). The 68's need nw signs anyway, so I was hoping they woulf get new ones with "T", and then the W would be used for one of the Brighton services. TA planners had spoke of making the Q the full time local, so if the D was used for the express, it would only be part time. Also, if W is used, the diamond signs would be accurate. (Diamonds are used for all day exp. (not just rush) on the #6, and on the old #7 strip maps, the QT and RR were diamonds. You can see this in the museum R-33).
But if they are willing to eliminate the stupid 2 B's & 2 D's, (BX/BK;DX/DK in Operations usage)I'm happy. (They should have timed this with the Brighton track work several years ago, where there was no express service. Then the 2 Q's would be the same, except for some terminating at Brighton Beach instead of Coney Island. They were doing similar work at the same time as the '86-88 closing, and they probably would have eliminated the D, except that they did skip-stop service instead of all local, which necesitated two different letters to avoid confusion.
"Say, where did you hear this at?"
It may have been from a memo on my desk last week!
"Most people were hoping the West End would become the T because that's what it was 1960-67"
The truth is most people outside of subway buffs couldn't care less what you call it.
But Y'all KNOW what I was hoping it would be called!!!!! Anyway it rides again in spirit if not in name!
"Most people were hoping the West End would become the T because that's what it was 1960-67"
The truth is most people outside of subway buffs couldn't care less what you call it.
Actually, I meant most people on this board.
We Subtalkers constitute a very small, even miniscule, minority.
I know that in the mid 1980's the 6th Ave B and D trains only went to 34th (for transfer to the Broadway B and D trains) while an "S" train covered the rest of the 6th Ave line (doubling F service through Broadway-Lafeyette) down to Grand St. That seems to be the plan again this time.
But, since the word on the street is that they may re-letter the southern B to "W" and the southern D to a local "Q", is there any reason the northern B and D couldn't continue down 6th Ave to Grand Street?
There must be a turnaround down there otherwise they couldn't have had the S running it.
There is no turnaround south of Bway-Lafayette. So my guess is any train terminating at Grand St. pulls in to the north-bound tracks and then leaves again fairly quickly.
If the Transit Authority desides that going to run service to Grand Street from 21 Street. The Shuttle Trains will terminate and leave from the downtown side at Grand Street also Broadway Lafayette Street Station will have uptown service leaving from the Downtown Express Track. South of West 4 Street will be single track operation to Grand Street.
I was riding a Lexington Avenue Thru Express this morning, prior to entering the interlocking, I noticed over head lights directly over the interlocking switches, is there a reason for this?
On the Amtrak NEC they have big Hg or Na vapour lights illuminating the interlockings. I would guess usses could include helping signal maintainers see their work and leting trains visually inspect an interlocking if the towermen get anomulous readings.
This morning on the way to work I boarded a Redbird #5 heading downtown. Prominently displayed just over the Subway Map was a sticker reading : "ACTIVITIES ON THIS CAR MAY BE VIDEOTAPED".
At first I thought it was a joke but then I looked up at the ceiling and there they were 3 minature cameras in a clear housing mounted in a white base.
Was this the TA's attempt to try to catch criminals in the act? Obvioulsy it was not successful since I have not seen other cameras except in the married pair of 7910 & 7911.
I've never heard about the video-monitoring of a subway care before.
It must have been installed mainly to catch vandals in the act more than just any other criminal acts. The NYCT usually only cares about it's own property first and the public second.
Doug aka BMTman
Had the cameras been on the front of the train I would have guesed a railfan installed them. Has the TA ever thought of hooking a web cam to a wireless web PDA or something to give people a live 24 hour feed of subway car crowdedness? Maybe something at busy stations instead of a subway car? After all cities had installed traffic cams everywhere.
There are going to be cameras on the R142/R142A cars placed facing the Emergency Buttons so that when someone presses it, they image comes up on the screen of the T/O's and C/R's screen.
This was told to me by a motorman who was operating the cars on the #6 Line (R142A).
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
i think the video taping program is either an attempt to keep an eye on a growing breed of publicity seeking railfans OR a colloboration with candid camera to film new yorkers being themselves as they travel through the bowels of the earth...
along similar lines, i have just received a new picture tube for my "outer band individuated teletracer" machine, or O.B.I.T. machine which i bought at an auction of outer limits memorabilia...
( actually that might be a really neat thing to build )...( just checked in "the outer limits" companion guide, the O.B.I.T. console without screen was used in the series "The Man from U.N.C.L.E )... anyway, as soon as i fire it up, i hope to solve the mystery of the key to the cookie locker incident...
I was wandering around tracks 5,6 and 7 of Suburban Station in Philly last Saturday and I had some questions about what SEPTA did to the original congifuration and how they currently utilize it. Back in the day Suburban Station had 8 tracks # 5-12 served by 4 island platforms. Today it still has 8 tracks (0-7) however 1-4 go through Market East, 0 is rarely used and 5-7 are used for storage. However track 4 has become a gauntlet track and I think track 0 now has its own platform on the south side. Furthermore tracks 1-4 see most of the use, but 5-7 are still lit up and SEPTA has no problem with ppl messing about on them. I know that they originate trains from Suburban in the morning and I was wondering if the public would use tracks 5-7 to access these trains* (esle SEPTA would have to reverse move out and back) Finally I noticed a metal stairway at the end of track 3,4 platform heading up. Is that the access to Broad Tower?
PS: Does anyone have a date on Suburban Station. I think it was built in the 30's. And does anyone remember how Suburban Station shared the load with Broad St. Station untill BSS was torn down in 1956?
*If someone would want to travel outbound at 5:30 AM.
To answer to your second from last question first, I noticed that there was the end of an escalator sticking out of a wall at the end of the platform that serves tracks 1 and 2, never knew about 3 and 4. Now to answer to your last question, it was built in the 1950's after the second fire @ Broad Street Station. The original track configuration @ Suburban is still there. All tracks are served during the peak hours (due to express and limited trains) and for train changes.
My "Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictoral History" book written in 1948 states that July 27, 1927 construction was started on the new Suburban Station and it was put into use Sept. 28, 1930. It had 4 1100 foot platforms and 7 tracks with possible expansion to 9 or 12 tracks. Now that we know that SS was built before BSS was torn down, how was the traffic divided? Also my BROAD interlocking track plan shows 4 island platforms and 8 tracks. Unless I was seeing things last saturday, track 4 had suddenly become a gauntlet track and Track 0 seemd to have grown its own platform. Does anyone know the story behind these changes?
I haven't been to Philly much, so I have some questions:
Are Suburban and Market East completely underground or do they have surface buildings like 30th Street?
Broad Street (or so I've heard) had a viaduct on the north side of Market (modern site of JFK Boulevard), but Suburban's tracks are underground. Why did they build a tunnel to replace the viaduct if the viaduct was not demolished right away?
The Market East station is at the west end of the Gallery shopping mall, a three-story mall whose lowest level is subway level. The tracks are one level below. Exiting the station to the west takes you into the new Pennsylvania Convention Center (former Reading Terminal head house and train shed). Exiting the station to the east puts you in the shopping mall, which continues east to Strawbridge's and 8th Street, with entrances to the 8th and Market stations of the Ridge Ave spur of the Broad Street Subway, PATCO, and the Market Frankford Subway Elevated. The 11th Street station of the MFSE is adjacent to the Market East station. The street level of the Gallery is interrupted by the numbered streets, but the levels above and below continue uninterrupted.
I'll let others address your other questions.
Suburban Station was built with a major office building over it into which the Pennsy moved its executive offices. I assume Broad Street station continued to be used for another 20 years to accommodate non electric trains.
The Market East platforms are about 50 feet below street level, but there is a building type thing over the platforms with windows facing the street that let in light. On the street the building is marked SEPTA Market East Station, but I am not sure what the upper stories are used for.
Suburban Station has a wonderful 30's art deco office building build in the airspace over the station. The building has large signs proclaiming "Pennsylvania Railraod: Suburban Station" and red PRR keystones all around the outside entrances. At my local library the Suburban Station office building is listed in a book about surviving railroad stations.
The chineese wall was built from West Philly Station to BSS. BSS is about block south of Suburban Station. When Suburban Station was constructed the access tracks emerge from the Suburban Station tunnel about 2 blocks west of the platforms and then rise to the level of the Chineese wall where it joined w/ the BSS access tracks. Suburban Station was used to compliment BSS and because BSS was elevated and SS was underground they needed 2 access routes. When BSS was torn down most of the chineese wall become JFK Blvd. but just east of the river a portion of the wall remains from 23rd St. to 20th St. where the tunnel starts. Check out the BROAD interlocking diagram here http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/broad.gif
The link didn't work.
Are they completely underground? Yes, and Yes. Suburban Station (formerly Penn Suburban Station) has a few NYC-subway type stairways in Art-Deco bronze at 16 St. and 17 St. between JFK Blvd and Market St. and a lot a passsageways to it from the subway lines. The entire station, from ticketing to tracks, is underground. The overhead office buildings have nothing to do with the station, as far as passengers are concerned. It's a lot like the PATH WTC station, the station part all underground.
Market St. East is also, as far as passengers and ticketing are concerned, completely underground with entrances from the street looking like those glass doors into Grand Central Terminal but leading to stairways down. Above it at ground level is the Reading Terminal Market and there are passageways from the various nearby subways. The departure time of any given train is at 5 minute intervals between the 3 main stations (30, Sub, MSE) so that a train leaving 30 St. at 4:10 leaves MSE at 4:20.
I believe there are stairways to the platforms for Tracks 5, 6 and 7 off the main boarding area (near the old Health Fair, etc).
I know Track 0 and its platform were built as part of the Airport Line project in the early 80's. At the time the thought was that the line would stub-end here (this was before the details of the through routing of Pennsy and Reading lines were developed). If you recall, the Airport line didn't 'pair up' with any other line for several years after the 'R' routes were created, but it also didn't end at the stub platform at Track 0 (usually it ran to Wayne Jct or Glenside).
As I heard from another (and can't reference in any book, etc), when Suburban Station was opened, in 1930, all electrified commuter service was routed into there, with Broad St reserved for long distance runs and non-electrics. This would mean that Paoli, Media-West Chester, Chestnut Hill (West), Manayunk-Norristown (*), Trenton and Wilmington trains would have moved to Sub. (* Norristown quit in 1960, truncated to Manayunk, now only to Cynwyd)
However, as a youngster I recall going to the NY World's Fair in '65 and taking a NY Clocker from Suburban (also coming back in there on the return). Whether the Clockers did this regularly or only special Clockers did this, I don't know. Harrisburg trains started/ended at Sub until the Tunnel opened, when they moved to 30th St lower level. When the line is re-equipped, it's supposed to return to Sub, possibly on Track 0.
Some facts about Subruban Station:
1) It was conceived in the 1920's as part of the Philadelphia Improvements of the PRR. Suburban Station was to take all the commuter traffic as well as some Clockers away from Broad St. Station. 30th St. Station was built to house PRR long distance trains. Broad St. Station and the Chinese Wall were to be torn down to improve the downtown of Philadelphia (as eventually happend). Powleton Coah Yard and the Race St. Engine Terminal were built at the same time, along with the Post Office.
2) Suburban Station was built first during the 1920's, followed by 30th St. The removal of Broad St. Station was delayed by the Great Depression and also the PRR's unwillingness to put itself at a competitive disadvantage to the Reading, which also had a downtown terminus.
3) Broad St. Station and the Chinese Wall were ripped out in 1953 and replaced with PennSylvania Blvd. (now JFK Blvd.) and the more modern portion of the Penn Center office complex.
4) Suburban Station was originally 7 tracks, then 8 tracks when Broad St. was finally closed and Track 5 added. Additional space was provided on the south side of the station for more tracks for storage should the need arise (it didn't), designated for tracks 1 through 4.
5) When the Center City Tunnel was built, it used this 4 track space on the south side of the terminal plus some of the existing south side tracks and platforms, the entire south side of the station was radically rebuilt. The reconfiguration is somewhat confusing, so this is my best effort at describing it - keep in mind that old Tracks 1 through 4 never actually existed except as design alignments for a small storage yard:
Present Track 0 is on the alignment of "former" 1 and a new
platform (serving Track 0) is on the alignment of "former" 2. The columns between "former 2 and 3" are in this platform and it extends northwardly approximately halfway into the alignment of "former 3". Present 1 is centered in the middle of the "former 3 and 4" slot and the present eastward platform extends southwardly approximately halfway into the alignment of "former 4". Thus, present 1 has a platform on each side of it, but only the present Eastward platform, on its North side, is the one that counts. Regarding this platform: it extends beteen original 6 (now know as Track 2) and present 1, as described above which means that Track 5 had to be removed in order to achieve a wide platform. Present 2 and 3 are obviously original 6 and 7 and the present Westward platform extends from present 3 across original 8 (removed) to original 9: now known as Track 4. The original platform between original 9 and 10 is in place, but only the South side, adjacent to present Track 4, is the one that counts. Original 10 is now known as Track 5. Original 11 and 12 are now 6 and 7 with the platform between them.
Tracks 0 and 5 through 7 are used by various SEPTA trains originatting and terminating there as well as by the standby protect set that SEPTA usually keeps parked there in case something goes awry.
6) Amtrak used the station until 1988 when the retirement of the Capitoliners and what was felt to be a shortage of electric engines made continued electric service from there untenable. Amtrak used tracks 6 and 7 when they were there, and would presumably return to use the same again.
Andrew Byler
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I have added new thumnails etc to be added to subtalk & they do seem
to look a whole of a better than when my TWAIN photo system crashed
my rebuilt macintosh g3 ..
the thumnails are about the opening of the red & blue lines in lost angeles.....
( L.A.) Los Angeles metro rail systems etc..even construction sites!!
anyway feel free to E mail & or post what you think of these pics
( thank you ) SalaamAllah ...
http://photos.yahoo.comasiaticcommunications
I'm hoping you weekend Subway fans might help me. I'm looking for
a picture of the old (there may be some left) Canal St. Station
signs with the Chinese characters underneath. Also the inside the
car stickers with emergency evacuation instructions in Spanish.
Any other languages on signage for the NYC subways would be
great! They've been eliminated as not "politically correct." I want
to memorialize them on my tee shirt line.
Thanks!
LL
Gee, and I just sold on e-bay my NYCTA Graphics Standards manual....
Do you think the Graphics Standard Manual had these in there?
I sort of doubt it. That info is more generic. I need to reach out
to the collectors who are accumulating this stuff. Probably many
are T.A. workers. Any ideas?
You must check out this feature on Transit to New York's airports
www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/08/12/timbizana0
ps Can someone tell me how to make this link clickable
Simon
Swindon UK
I got an error message from the link, but went to the Times and searched "New York, subway,Airtrain" which led me to the article.
The url over the article (as well as the whole site) is simply http://www.the-times.co.uk/
The title of the article is "New York's answer to Heathrow"
Bob
Did my best -ooops :)
The URL is not www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/08/12/timbizana0 .
It's http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/08/12/timbizana01001.html .
Well, I'm just back from my four day visit to New York and got in a lot of subway riding. I concentrated on BMT lines because they were the least familiar to me. Where have I been all my life! The N trip up Broadway to Astoria is a real treat at the rail fan window.
On Wednesday, I'm at the front storm door when just north of City Hall, two transit workers come up and bang on the operator's door. They ask the operator to drop them off a few hundred feet ahead. Sure enough we stopped and they exited via the storm door and climbed down onto the tracks. They had been sent to pick up a train laid up on the express tracks. I'm glad I was up front to see that!
Bill
Isn't this against MTA regulations to use an in-service train to transport employees to areas outside train stations?
Don't know about MTA rules but it's common practice on the PATH... I've seen them key open side doors for work crews probably two dozen times in 7 years of regular riding.. but never the storm door!
-Dave
I've seen it once or twice on the early morning Jamaica-bound E train (before 7:00) between 75th Ave and Union Tpke. Not a full crew, but just a vested track worker. Not sure why, but I vaguely remember one time there was a leakage problem around there. And yes, he used the storm door.
Don't trains have to slow down when travelling through an area with track worker(s) present? If so, I would gather that the only reason a worker would be sent out on a busy line like the E during rush would be a potential emergency. Also, how can a single worker be out there - what about flagging? Would this be a worker going to work in an area off the trackways but still in the tunnel - an equipment room, perhaps?
The PATH apparently has rules regarding when this is permitted - I've seen workers ask if they can be dropped somewhere (after boarding at a regular station) and get told "not before X" or "not after X", where X is a time at the start/end of rush hour. Of course, emergencies are another story.
Regarding the MTA, I think which door gets used is a function of what type of equipment is being used and possibly how crowded the train is. For example, on an empty R-32 the easiest thing to do is to pop the first seat and open the door that way. But if the train is full (or there's a homeless person sleeping on that seat 8-) it's probably easier to use the front door. Similarly, on an R-44 I saw a crew doing the "I thought _you_ had the key" routine to try and get in the side door, and finally the T/O let them in the front (I don't know why she didn't want to come out of the full-width cab and open the access panel to trip the door that way). That crew finally figured out who had the key and let themselves out using the access panel, but then they didn't close it...
You have to get permission from the Control Center to drop off personnel except at certain locations. Two of those locations where permission isn't needed are First Ave crossover and 111St tower on the #7 line. I just remembered there are two drop off points on the B line parallel to Stillwell yd where permission isn't needed.
Well, I've seen the side door used to pick up and drop off workers in the middle of the 53st tube and on the J line west of Sutphin. Never the storm door, though.
Also on the N there are a couple of crew platforms approaching stillwell.
I have seen track gangs of about 12 guys ride to a point between 7av and 15st on the F and get off, taking huge piles of equipment and tools with them. It took almost a minute to load it all off. Through the side door of an R-46, at around 11pm
I was on a Manhattan-bound F train a few years ago when the T/O stopped between stations and keyed a side door open for a transit employee to exit onto the tunnel catwalk. I'm pretty sure it was an F since the cars were R-46s; I personally haven't seen any E trains of R-46s in a long time.
Try riding the E now. It's almost entirely R46, which will be the topic of my next original post ...
I've seen this happen before, except that the workers were headed to a switch between 59 St. and 8th Ave. The train stopped a few hundred feet from 8th Ave.
A few hundred feet? If in fact this is true, part of the train would have still been in the station. And you know there are people that would have been crazy enough to try to catch the train they missed by any means. That would've been bad. I one saw a kid at Brighton Beach run up the stairs and see his Coney Island bound D Train depart. The kid, instead of waiting for the next train, jumped onto the door step and grasped the edges of the door frame. The train started to move but the C/R failed to see the kid riding. The train amazingly got to Ocean Parkway with the kid still riding.
That's the...
running on...
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observations and questions.
I've seen it before. Once on the Manhattan bound 7X two workers flagged down our train around the 1st ave crossovers. The T/O was pissed muttering to himself "why this in the f-ing rush hour?". He let them on through the front door and they got off at Grand Central.
I also saw this while on an R32 N train right before 8ave. A train was stopped in the Manhattan-bound direction to pick up two subway workers, and our train was flagged down by workers as well, which were let in by way of the front door.
There is no RULE against it, but normaly frowned upon to do it. You are supposed to call for permission but there are certain spots where you do not need to call at all.
it would be eaiser to climb up from the tracks to the front door then the side door
I was hoping someone would get it right! If workers are being let off in the tunnel onto a catwalk, they will use the side door. If they need to get to another train, they will use the storm door and climb down to the roadbed. The crew going to the lay-up north of City Hall was pretty lazy, since it is only two train-lenghts from CH lower level to the head-out car of the third train there (There's only room for three trains). when I was a CR, I took that walk twice a week at 4:45 AM to make my put-in.
On my visit to New York this week I rode the Kawasaki on the #6 line. I had a print out of the schedule (Thanks Oren and David!) and the southbound arrived at Union Square right about on time. Actually it was 3 min. behind schedule according to the LED display of time, but made up most of that by a quick turn at Brooklyn Bridge.
Despite a "real" human voice admonishing everyone to get off at Brooklyn Bridge, several people, including me stayed on and got to ride through City Hall.
The northbound trip ran as a 6-diamond and the automated announcements and displays were fine until we departed 138th street. Then the display got stuck on "Brook Ave Next" even though it showed <6> and the voice announced that "This is a number 6 Pelham Bay express". There was much discussion about this in the cab and on the intercom (radio?) with the theory being pushed that since the operator programmed the route after departing BB and while the train was moving it "screwed up again." After Hunts Point it was working again. Also the buzzer sounded and everyone on the IC claimed they didn't push the button. Crew concluded that a passenger must be in the "intermediate cab" (or something like that, couldn't quite make out what they said.)
Overall impression, very nice ride. Not radically different (from a rider's perspective) than an R-62 except for the voice/display. Southbound trip flawless. The woman operator told me she really liked this train (adjustable AC in the cab!) and that the new one on the west side was a mess.
Other random notes:
Wednesday: Big delays on the #1 at South Ferry. Station announcement about an accident at Times Square, but no details. (Read other post here about passenger being struck.)
Lennox Terminal: First visit. Has it always been roofed over? Yes, you can get a #3 R62 with a rail fan window.
Queensbridge Shuttle: tracks beyond appear to be ready for service. Walked above ground to Queens Plaza. No evidence of construction.
#2: Still one of the most interesting below ground rail fan window runs. The way the express tracks sink below and curve under the local above 96th street is awesome as is the junction above 135th. Loved the tunnel along Central Park North. The turnouts at the west end of 149th street must be some of the most frequently thrown on the system. And you can stand right next to them and watch!
My post may contain some inaccuracies as to precise locations and model numbers. I'm no expert. Corrections are welcome!
Bill
You know, with only 2 R142 trains and dozens of subtalkers who have recently ridden them, I suspect 2 or 3 subtalkers might have been standing or sitting next to each other on these rides and never known whom they were sitting/standing next to! We need some sort of secret sign to indicate our identities to others.
Heh, what kinda sign? I have no idea what to do about that. lol
I could wear my "Independent Subway" T shirt.:-)
"Queensbridge Shuttle: tracks beyond appear ready for service....." They have always been operational since the line to 21st St. opened. 2 full length trains can and are laid up back there in between the AM & PM rush. They both ORIGINALLY ended with bumper blocks with tracks extending beyond finally ending in a concrete wall.
I should have stated "2 full length trains on each track."
Can't you get arrested for staying on a 6 while going around the City hall loop? I have thought about doing it but am afraid Guiliani will label me a "threat" and have his cops arrest me.
That's old news.
Lots of people have ridden through the loop recently.
I saw a number of them myself when I rode on the R-142A. I thought of staying on and felt like kicking myself when I saw these people stay on without anyone telling them anything. They were not NYPD undercover.
Even though it says College skills prefered, does that mean that I will not get in at all unless I go to college? Also, do all postions require college? Also, what positions can I get in as?
Anyone have detail on the Baltimore subway? Tried to look on the site but it didn't have any details. How fast do the trains go?
Between 35-50 MPH in the tunnels to 65-70 on the elevated and ground level trackage.
The cars, Budd and Transit America are married pairs. All cabs are full width, with a forward facing seat with a full glass partition. outside the cab. Gives a great view forward.
The line is in subway (mostly shield driven, some rock tunnel) from Johns Hopkins Station to just north of Mondawmin Station. From the portal to Rogers Avenue the line is elevated (standard concrete construction. From Rogers the line is surface to Reisterstown Plaza Station. A short elevated structure north of RP returns you to surface trackage. From Milford Mill Road to Owings Mills is a mixture of mostly surface with a short subway under Sudbrook Park (the residents didn't want the trains on the surface in their "exclusive" neignborhood and had the political connections to get it buried.) before. After Old Court Station the line is in the median of I-795. The trains get to race the cars on 795 and usually win.
If you visit Baltimore, the best bet is to buy a Day Pass. Sold for $3.00, it's good for unlimited rides on the entire MTA System.
The Baltimore System is practically a twin of the Miami System.
Except ours is subway, elevated and at grade. Miami's is all elevated.
I cannot believe that the New York City Transit would order their
r-142's with those outboard bearing airsprung trucks. The r-110a's had similar trucks that cracked, and the r-46's with the hpt-2 trucks from Rockwell International which had a similar fate. Meanwhile, the r110b's are currently running without incident in the system with an inboard bearing truck which is much lighter while serving under a much heavier 67 foot car. In addition, on the Long Island Railroad and Metro-Noth, their even longer and heavier M-1's run with inboard bearing trucks at high speeds. It seems once again that New York City Transit is playing games with the undercarriges of their fleets for no appparent reason.
To be sure, the standard NYCT truck has had its fair share of cracks. Keep in mind that each crack, regardless of truck type is subject to intense failure analysis including significant metallurgical testing. A significant volume of knowledge has been gained since the R-46 fiasco. Time will tell who was correct...
Considering the low mileage the R110B gets, their trucks should never crack, no matter what they're made out of!
I know some of you like to keep track of this kind of stuff. These 10 R-32 cars were running on the N line all week. I think they came from Jamaica, and I don't know if this is just temporary or permanent.
3402-3403 3580-3581 3722-3723 3790-3791 3866-3867
Hmmm. And I saw Pitkin cars in Queens IND service this week: 3380/81; 3406/07; 3728/29 and 3876/77. I don't remember Jamaica having 3580/81 tho. 3402/03 have horrible floors....... I saw lots of additional Jamaica R32's this week with new floors, must have around 30 cars completed by now.......Lots of air conditioning problems with R32 Jamaica cars. They can't handle the load. As each car has 2 cooling systems, on many cars one end blows cold while the other blows hot or warm. So on the road with the crowds and doors constantly opening & closing the cars feel hot. I took one to Jamaica yard the other nite. As I changed ends at Jamaica Center, I found 5 hot cars as I walked thru the train. When I got to the yard, as I once again walked thru the train to get off, those 5 hot cars were now comfortable!......3559/3904 are out of service. Haven't seen them for a week or two. Last Friday or the Friday before 3904 was a hotbox of a car. RCI reset it a Jamaica Center. It cooled off a bit. At WTC it was an airless tomb once again. In addition, 3559 had its' dead motor light illuminated.
Bill, you may be right about 3580/81. Now that I think of it, those two cars were a lot cleaner on the exterior than the other eight. Maybe it's just me, but the CI R-32's always seem to be a lot cleaner than their Jamaica counterparts. I didn't have this train for any of my intervals this week, but if I get it soon, I'll check on those floors in 3402/03. I just hope nobody twists an ankle or anything. Some of those floors are like walking on the beach.
The ends of some of those Jamaica R32's are hideous. Black stainless steel! The Pitkin R32's are clean & shiny. The Jamaica car wash is lousy. Easy to tell the difference between the fleets besides looking at the signs & counting the cars!
3559/3904 were out of service for 2 or 3 years till recently due to 3904 hitting a fallen grating in the 53rd. St. tube some time ago during the midnite hours. Now, they seem to be absent again.
the hunters point avenue station does not appear on the july 15 City terminal zone, is it closed? why?
The Hunterspoint Ave. station has not been used for the last month due to the trackwork (installing concrete ties west of Jamaica on the main line on all four tracks). Most of the trains that went to Hunterspoint Ave. have been either terminated at Jamaica or diverted over the Montauk branch to Long Island City. I believe the regular schedule will resume this Monday, 8/15.
LIRR History Website
thanx, I did not know that the long island city direct,was part of the montauk branch.What is the hunterspoint branch part of?
Hunterpoint Ave is sort of on the main line; it branches off just before the penn station-bound trains go into the east river tunnels. There is also a connection between the Hunterpoint Ave. station and the LIC station (which is electrified). It looks something like this:
to penn sta.________________________________________Main line
........Hunterspoint Ave.___________/
LIC_______/________________________________________Montauk Line
this car has a missing rollsign so there is a single pained window
I saw it before. Guess where I saw it? I saw it on an Coney Island R68. The rollsign was installed the opposite way. The interior side was facing the window. It was running on the N Line a few weeks back. Lately there have been alot of R68s/R68As missing rollsigns. Does anybody know what's going on?
That's the...
running on...
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questions & answers.
My guess: V-A-N-D-A-L-I-S-M with no spare sign boxes (unless a car gets otherwise destroyed). Must have used up all those sign boxes pulled from the Franklin Shuttle R68's!
See my picture of R68A #5116. This one also has a missing sign!
http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/romrow/1360/tp10/4/08.jpg
So so sad. :-(
That's the...
running on...
or
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reaction.
You love thos R68A's, don't you?
Yup.
-
running on...
or
Saturday Night Fever was on TV last night and you know the opening scene where John Travolta is walking down the street. Well there is an elevated subway line on that street with trains going by and I was wondering if any movie buff here knows where they shot that scene, what line it was and what subway cars were going by.
B train. That scene was shot with Travolta walking down 86th St. Later in the movie, you see Travolta riding the subway aimlessly, and it has some great shots of the 4th Ave RR using R27-30's and the N which was using R44 or R46 cars at that time.
Chris,
Just to augment your correct response, he was walking between 86th St. between Bay 20 St and 20 Ave. From the now extinct paint store, to Lenny's Pizzaria, which is still there.
JDL
Yes, and those are R-38s on the B. One of the shots is a nice closeup as the train passes by.
I could have sworn that there was a shot of the RR train pulling into the station just before Travolta boards it. In any case, there was no such clip. I did see the N train of R-46s.
In the open establishing sequence, which was filmed on 86th Street in Bensonhurst, we see an R-38 'B' pass by on the el. This seems to be just east of where the el curves from New Utrecht onto 86th.
Near the end of the movie, after his friend jumps off the Verrazano Bridge, Travolta rides an R-27 'RR' into Manhattan. At what looks like 45th or 53rd Street, an R-46 'N' appears to pass by on the outbound express track with its horn blaring.
It always puzzled me how the characters are supposed to have lived in Bay Ridge (the White Castle at 4th & 93rd and the playground under the Verrazano approach ramps are prominently featured), but Travolta walks all the way home from the paint store in Bensonhurst as if it's around the corner. In actuality, that covers a span of more than a mile, taking in all of Dyker Heights.
Movies and TV shows set in New York regularly take geographical liberties. Just watch ALL IN THE FAMILY, KOTTER or BARNEY MILLER sometime.
I still seem to remember seeing at one time the RR train that Travolta rides on pulling into whichever station he boards it at. That scene wasn't featured the last couple of times I saw the movie on TV.
That scene was probably cut from the TV version, because the videotape I have shows that scene.
It seems to me that the result is a break in continuity. You see the N train of R-46s go by, then all of a sudden Travolta is seen slumped over on a seat aboard an R-27. Did you notice how he lights up on the train? Uh-uh-uh, John, in the words of that deep-voiced conductor I heard on an A train once, no smoking on the train, no smoking on the train.
This scene is usually edited out for showing on broadcast or commercial pay TV. The uncut movie-theatre version contains it.
Is their a "Hauser St." in Astoria, the street Archie was supposed to live on?
At that time, Bay Ridge was almost exclusively Irish and Norwegian, and Bensonhurst was exclusively Italian. They must have lived in Bensonhurst, but hung out in Bay Ridge(Remember the Chevy Impala they drove around?). The Discoteque is actually bordering on Borough Park.
Who's coming up to Montreal next weekend? From seeing the subway AKA here as "METRO" on rubber tires what else would you like to see or visit?
Your humble tour guide, Marty "HOMER SIMPSON FOR PRESIDENT IN NOVEMBER" Lamarre.
Mary and I are! And we're looking forward to meeting you then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Make sure you ride that 1500 VDC electrified commuter line that just retired its 1920's vintage motive power. The non-electric commuter line uses old covered wagon FP-9's. Get some pics of those old warhorses for the site.
There's also a streetcar museum located at St. Constant, which is not a very long drive from Montreal.
-Robert King
My passion is to become either a Motorman or a Locomotive Engineer someday. I am asking this question because I am going into my senior year. I hope to either take a test or be picked for a position when I graduate next June. What I plan to do is take a Test later this year if one comes out, or send in my Resume to LIRR and MNRR.
Question. Do you have to go to college for every position for LIRR? or Can I get in as a coach cleaner or something? Also does MNRR and LIRR require College to be a Locomotive Engineer?
Thanks in Advance,
Paul
Metro North's website has employment opportunity pages for both Metro North and LIRR.
Sunday Newsday had an ad for LIRR Assistant Conductor among others. College credit was desirable but not mandatory. The job does require attendance in a non-compensated training program. (I bellieve until you pass your first qualification test, you do not get paid).
I will be in New York this Wednesday and Thursday as part of a baseball trip sponsored by Sports Travel. I'm staying at the Grand Hyatt, Park Avenue and Grand Central. It would be great if I could touch base with one or two or three of you. If you're in the area drop by and we can ride some rails.
Greetings transit fans,
I have placed a couple of New York City maps on my web site. The maps are "clickable". which means that you can click on a spot, and get a detailed blow-up of that area.
Right now, I have a 1934 map of Manhattan, and a pre-consolidation (but copyright 1902) map of New York (i.e. Manhattan and the Bronx). The 1902 map shows lots of interesting train details, like the route of the former IRT elevated lines, as well as lots of ferry lines running around the rivers.
Please browse over to http://www.brorson.org/maps/MapIndex.html and check out the maps. Enjoy!
SDB
I know this question is way off-topic by not having much to do with mass transit but alot of sub-talkers know alot about NYC things. What is with all the lifesized plastic painted cows that seem to have sprung up all over Manhattan?? By the way, my wife remembered that there were some in Toronto when we visited there in June.
It's a traveling art show. One cow is supposed tobe on display at 7th Ave end of Penn Station.
there is one at Penn near the escalator to the street(near the IRT) and two at grand Central lower level.
[...two at Grand Central lower level.]
There's at least one additional cow at Grand Central, on the upper level near the Transit Museum gallery. It's a "MetroCow," painted on both sides to resemble the front of a MetroCard. The perspective "MTA" logo is relaced by "MOO."
Question: Can it be swiped? :)
[Question: Can it be swiped?]
I'm sure sombody will try and steal it !! ;-).
Seriously, try and catch the exhibit "Bridges and Rails: Photographs by O. Winston Link" at the Transit Museum Store. Along with the superb photos, there is a display of the some of the home-made flash holders/reflectors that made the pictures possible.
Information on the Exhibit
BTW: Check out the photo "Main Line on Main Street." Notice how close the tracks and therefore the massive steam locomotive is to the buildings and it's windows, some of which appear to be open!! "I'm sorry I can't talk on the phone, Aunt Martha, here comes the 10:32 !"
Transit Museum Store in Grand Central Terminal
Monday to Friday: 8 AM to 8 PM
Saturday: 10 AM to 4 PM
Sunday: Closed
[try and catch the exhibit "Bridges and Rails: Photographs by O. Winston Link" at the Transit Museum Store]
I saw the Link exhibit at Haverford College last year and wholeheartedly recommend it.
Bob
[Can it be swiped?]
Sure, if you can find a turnstyle with a two foot wide slot! :-)
When I was in NY a few weeks ago, I got a picture of me sitting on one pretending I was in a rodeo, in front of the Flatiron building.
We have a "mini-cow" inside CBS H/Q Blackrock (51 W. 52 St.) that says "We're MOOving." WCBS-FM is headed to 1515 Broadway (today in fact), and WCBS-AM is heading to the CBS Broadcast Center at 524 W. 57 St. in mid-September.
For me, it means the end of a one-block walk from the E/F at 53/5th or B/D/E at 53/7th or B/D/F/Q at 47-50th, and a LONG three-block walk from Columbus Circle A/B/C/D/1/9 to 57th St. & 11th Ave. For some reason, it seems that that walk is uphill in both directions, especially during the winter when the wind is howling crosstown!
And that's...
Has CBS abandoned "Black Rock" altogether? Wasn't this their "Broadcast Center" at one time?
The Blackrock building at 51 W. 52 Street was/is the corporate H/Q. It also houses WCBS-AM and WCBS-FM (local NYC radio stations). Over at the CBS Broadcast Center (524 W. 57 St.) you'll find the CBS Radio Network (i.e. what goes out to the whole country, such as the top-of-the-hour newscasts), the CBS Television Network (such as 60 Minutes and East coast soaps), and WCBS-TV/Channel 2 (except that some of their operations, such as news, have now moved to the GM Building on 57th Street!).
CBS once owned the Blackrock building, but a few years ago sold it to investors, and leased back a number of floors. Most of the rest of the building is leased out to law firms, etc. Complicating the matter is that there is no longer a CBS, Inc.; it was merged into Viacom earlier this year.
How to get this back on topic??? I already mentioned how much less convenient the Broadcast Center is to the subway than Blackrock. I guess I'll be using that free transfer to the 57th Street crosstown bus!
[How to get this back on topic??? I already mentioned how much less convenient the Broadcast Center is to the subway than Blackrock. I guess I'll be using that free transfer to the 57th Street crosstown bus!]
Wasn't the Broadcast Center once a milk-processing plant, or something of that nature?
Yup. MOOOO. We've come full-circle to the original topic :-)
New York has the cows, Toronto has moose. When I get my film developed I'll post a picture of a Toronto moose with a transit theme, assuming it came out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We're not the only one with this travelling art show.
Lexington, KY has the same thing going on, except there, it's horses.
I didn't see a MetroHorse, though :)
--Mark
The cow thing started in Chicago last year with 260 synthetic bovines. Now more cities are having their own spins on the painted livestock theme. See http://www.cincinnati.com/bigpiggig/here_in_porkopolis.html for Cincinatti's painted porcine.
Why dosen't NYC do it again with subway cars. Small time artists could go around and customize a subway car with artwork. Oh wait, they already did that in the 70's.
http://www.cowparade.org/
If you click on "THE COWS" you can browse photos and locations.
..talk about a post topic that just
keeps on MOOOOOOOOOOOving on to a
different week..
I realize that I have been a pain this summer with all my pointless posts so I have decided to give something back to www.nycsubway.org Over the last few days I have spent some time making detailed track and signal diagrams of the PTACO system and our exaulted leader Dave just posted them on the patco page (http://www.nycsubway.org/us/phila/patco/) as a 113k .zip file. They are .gif images and average about 13k each. Over the next week or 2 I will make similar maps of the Market Frankford Line. I will also devote more of my posting to answer other people's questions instead of posting pointless questions of my own.
Tell me what you think of my little maps and if there's anything you'd like to see on the MFL set. If you have ANY information to add please tell me so I can update the pics. Switch numbers would be greatly appriciated. I know I forgot a symbol key, but I'll send one to Dave tomorrow. Feel free to ask any questions.
Its easy to make track diagrams using a tape recorder, notebook and a railfan window. On one trip you record a play by play on tape and on a second trip you you note relitive position in the book. After you get home you can hand draw and scan or just go 100% digital.
Do the subways seem more dangerous? Is graffitti and homelessness on the rise? Are the squeegee men returning? Well there was an article in Sunday's Daily News about petty crime from the pre-Guiliani days returning.
Well I think most of the subway lines are safer than they've ever been. But I do see more beggars, and people selling stuff, especially on the A,E, and F lines.
I haven't seen much graffiti on subway trains either, however alot of the front windows are pretty scratched up. Certain areas that are generally unsafe, like Jamaica, South Bronx, Harlem, and the Brownsville and Bushwick sections of Brooklyn continue to be so.
However I do feel other areas are having a problem of growing crime, and a sagging economy. Downtown Flushing especially comes to mind, within the last year several stores near Main&Roosevelt have closed. Caldor's, Genovese, Wendy's, just to name a few, and no visible plans or construction going on in these vacant spots. At night downtown Flushing is a spooky place. Last Wednsday, when I was there to catch the 8:53pm N21 home, most shops were closed, and there's weren't many people on the streets. There were gangs of kids walking around, broken bottles and lots of garbage. Fortunately there were some cops around, but I will try to avoid being in Flushing at such a late hour again.
Crime seems to be a growing problem, as well as garbage, which has been worse than ever in Flushing. In addition the 7 train seems to be in pretty bad shape, there is a big increase in garbage, magic marker, and inappropriate acts of behavior on the number 7 train. In my opinion this has train has declined the most within the past year.
While retail plans for areas like Harlem, South Bronx, and Brooklyn have brought some improvement to these areas, the borough of Queens seems to have declined the most within the past few years. And I don't see any major redevelopment plans in store for Queens, at least I haven't heard of any. Also excluding Staten Island, Queens is the borough most underserved by the subway, which doesn't help matters.
While personally I feel most of NYC and the subway is as safe as it was last year, certain areas, especially in Queens, have had a marked decline.
[Do the subways seem more dangerous? Is graffitti and homelessness on the rise? Are the squeegee men returning? Well there was an article in Sunday's Daily News about petty crime from the pre-Guiliani days returning.]
I haven't seen any recent statistics concerning crime or other social ills, but based solely on my personal observation there seems to have been an increase in begging.
(I haven't seen any recent statistics concerning crime or other social ills, but based solely on my personal observation there seems to have been an increase in begging.)
I'd agree, but the situation is nowhere near what it was in the 1980s. At least not yet. Remember, begging and homelessness peaked when the economy did, not in the depths of the recession. Is a new drug craze starting to hit?
[I haven't seen any recent statistics concerning crime or other social ills, but based solely on my personal observation there seems to have been an increase in begging.]
That's probably just me doing my panhandling routine on the A Line (I gotta purchase a set of those brass R-38's @ $699 per set somehow!!).
Doug aka BMTman
When I read that article in the DAILY NEWS, all I could think was, "When did petty crime ever LEAVE?" Beggars and peddlers have always been, and continue to proliferate in the subways and on the streets.
On Saturday, while waiting for a light on the Van Wyck service road and Hillside Avenue, there were three people shaking cans for an unidentified charity, a man peddling shrink-wrapped meat and a display of bicycles and Big Wheels carefully arranged on the sidewalk. I had plenty of time to notice all this thanks to missing the light because of the driver in front of me buying from the meat guy.
The transfer passageway under Lexington between 51st and 53rd is routinely lined with tables full of Walkmans, clothes, toys and general health and beauty aids- at least on the weekends. As if this doesn't take up enough room, you're further blocked by 'shoppers'.
Several times, I've seen pre-teen kids begging. Some will do an elaborate boom-box-and-dance number before passing the hat. The most honest begging line ever heard (on a rush-hour '6' from a young woman in suit and Reeboks): "Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, I am NOT homeless, and I AM employed, but my rent just went up again and I recently took a bad loss in the stock market." Some people gave.
While it may or may not technically be a crime, there are ALWAYS kids hanging in front of stores in Queens selling candy for school, even in August.
Don't get me started on 'drug-free' Washington Square. "Smoke-check it out- smoke-" This on a Saturday afternoon.
If Rudy thinks he's made the city perfect, he hasn't been around much lately.
[When I read that article in the DAILY NEWS, all I could think was, "When did petty crime ever LEAVE?" Beggars and peddlers have always been, and continue to proliferate in the subways and on the streets.]
It's still my impression that subway begging has become more common in the past year or so. As I only ride a few lines on the regular basis (mostly west side IRT) and generally only during weekdays, my observations are hardly conclusive. But I have noticed a definite difference.
BTW - while they're both forbidden, I draw a major distinction between peddling (and subway musicians) and outright begging. Peddlers can be useful, and musicians add a bit of character, but beggars create an unpleasant and sometimes menacing atmosphere. Police enforcement activity should be concentrated on beggars. And I'll repeat what I've said before - one thing that would really cut down on subway begging is to make it illegal to *give* to them.
[While it may or may not technically be a crime, there are ALWAYS kids hanging in front of stores in Queens selling candy for school, even in August.]
Not just an urban thing. I see that all the time out in Suffolk. I've heard that some schools are restricting candy sales, mainly because of safety concerns. A positive development, if you ask me (and probably no huge revenue loss, either).
[Don't get me started on 'drug-free' Washington Square. "Smoke-check it out- smoke-" This on a Saturday afternoon.]
Dealers frequently ply their trade right in front of police officers, who do nothing.
If petty crime is returning, then an uptick in major crimes is around the corner. But even the article states that a lot of it is based on perception, probably influenced by the last 6 years of declining crime. It doesn't help matters when the media and certain elected officials crucify the NYPD for doing it's job.
The Daily News article-
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-08-13/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-76458.asp?last6days=1
Actually -- and ironically -- from a long-range standpoint, an uptick in petty crime might not be such a bad thing right now, because if it becomes noticable to the public in the next year and is followed by an increase in other types of serious crimes like robbery, rape and murder, it will put the "quality of life" issue back into play in next year's mayoral election.
Were the rate of both petty and more serious crimes to continue at a lower level, the general attitude of the public and the press would be to act like "now that crime in under control, anyone can keep it that way," and the focus would remain where it's been for the past 18 months, on the problem of containing police brutality and overzealous arrests by officers.
That will be harder to do if the stats show crime's on the rise again and it will make it harder for anyone to get elected mayor by running on a platform of cracking down on the NYPD instead of on the criminals.
>>> It doesn't help matters when the media and certain elected officials crucify the NYPD for doing it's job <<<
Dan;
The referenced article certainly did not crucify the NYPD for doing its job. What are you referring to? The articles I have seen have been critical of the NYPD for not doing its job, such as the lack of law enforcement when women were molested in Central Park, shooting of an unarmed civilian on his own doorstep, and the sexual assault of a prisoner in custody. Who is complaining about the NYPD enforcing the law in a non-discriminatory way without trampling on the rights of law abiding citizens?
Tom
You're right, the article I referenced did not specifically criticize the NYPD. I was referring to the media in general, which has never given the NYPD full credit for the historic reductions in crime since 1994 under Giuliani, Bratton and Safir. The average policeman is now working in an environment whrere agressive policing may cost him his job. While I can't condone police inaction, I can understand where it's coming from. Safir's resignation will not help matters. Whoever is named commissioner now will only be in that position until the next mayor takes office in 2002.
(Safir's resignation will not help matters.)
Anecdotal evidence says the impact was nearly instantaneous: my airbags were stolen from my car last night.
The NYPD is less advanced than I had imagined. When I call the precinct, they said to come on in, they wouldn't send someone out. When I got to the precinct by transit 45 mintues later, they said someone had to come out, I shouldn't have come it.
The report was taken by hand, to be re-entered on computer later, a step just about every private organization has eliminated. I had to fill out four forms, with most of the information repeated four times. A computer-based system would put a stop to that. They said that many reports are taken in the field, but surely the cops could be issued palm-sized computers for that purpose? I know our stuff stinks, but with all the money going into the NYPD I thought they would do better.
[Anecdotal evidence says the impact was nearly instantaneous: my airbags were stolen from my car last night.]
Here we see an illustration of what might be called a circular market. Criminals steal airbags because unscrupulous auto body shops* provide a ready market for them. And why do these auto body shops buy them? In almost all cases, to install them in cars whose airbags have been stolen! There's got to be some sort of economics lesson in all this.
* = pardon the redundancy
(Criminals steal airbags because unscrupulous auto body
shops* provide a ready market for them. And why do these auto body shops buy them? In almost all cases, to install them in
cars whose airbags have been stolen! There's got to be some sort of economics lesson in all this.)
I intend to pay for a new airbag for exactly that reason. But who says I will get one?
The NYPD still lags at the field level when it comes to information management. Very few of the patrol cars have mobile data terminals which other police departments have been using for years. The NYPD has been in disputes with a number of contractors over the years regarding the implementation of it's Enhanced 911 system. I believe it's funded from the $0.35 per line 'E911' surcharge on our phone bills. (The surcharge for some strange reason is $0.70 per cellular number.) But we still only have half an enhanced system in that when you call 911 your phone number and address show up at the other end.
Taking that report by hand and then entering it later is a great way to fudge the stats, not that anyone is doing that. Did you get a handwritten receipt of your report or is a 'computerized' report on it's way.
Years ago a friend of mine lived on 1st Street & PPW, he had an old wreck of a Nissan that he would leave unlocked so that the nightly parade of car thieves would see that there was nothing of value in his car without having to break the windows. But those were the bad old days...
Just some passive info: Chicago TA has made public notice of panhandling on trains being illegal and asking customers not to give.
Chicago TA has made public notice of panhandling on trains being illegal and asking customers not to give
I thought so did the MTA here but it still happens.
I am going to ask some questions about safety in the subway, I would like to know how the Subtalk community feels about the subway system.
1. Do you find the subways to be safer, just as safe, or not as safe as last year?
2. Which subway line has gotten worse in the past year more than any other line, in terms of reliability and safety?
3. Which borough of NYC, including Staten Island, seems to be more dangerous and decaying than last year?
4.Which station/terminal areas seems to be the most depressed and in need of
revitalization?
Flushing-Main street
Jamaica Center
Grand Street-Chinatown
Canal Street-Chinatown
Stillwell Ave-Coney Island
179st-Jamaica
feel free to add a sta.name
Thank you very much for taking time to answer these questions!
1- About as safe.
2- B.
3- Brooklyn.
4- Bowery !
Brooklyn
Pick on your own borough, not on Greater Brooklyn (because Brooklyn is greater).
Uh, I've lived in Brooklyn for 30 years, and still do !
Then pick on someone else's borough! :-)
1. just as safe
2. B
3. Brooklyn
4. Chambers Street and the Bowery on the J/Z, M lines
1. Do you find the subways to be safer, just as safe, or not as safe as last year?
Depends on what you mean by the term "safe"?
2. Which subway line has gotten worse in the past year more than any other line, in terms of reliability and safety?
Not enough riding on lines besides the A and L to notice. (these lines are same as last year, with the L line in Brooklyn much more reliable than last year).
3. Which borough of NYC, including Staten Island, seems to be more dangerous and decaying than last year?
Not enough travel in boroughs outside of Brooklyn and/or Manhattan to take notice.
4.Which station/terminal areas seems to be the most depressed and in need of
revitalization?
Certainly Coney Island is in need of a make-over, which I understand is due shortly.
Flushing-Main street
Jamaica Center
Grand Street-Chinatown
Canal Street-Chinatown
Stillwell Ave-Coney Island
179st-Jamaica
feel free to add a sta.name
Atlantic Avenue - 14th Street Canarsie
Broadway Junction - Fulton St/8th Avenue
Thank you very much for taking time to answer these questions!
Your welcome!
Doug aka BMTman
1. About the same.
2. B
3. Not sure, but I'm glad the Bronx seems to be coming back.
4. Coney Island
1. Just as safe
2. I can only answer for the IRT but I would have to say the No.1 Line.
3. Brooklyn
4. Dyre Ave (Not a safe place to be after 8PM) I almost
A.just as safe
B.A (the 38s/44s are the things decaying)
D. both chinatowns/playland
I will only answer #3:
Who gives a damn? Boroughs are artificial constructions that date back to 1683 and don't mean squat anymore except for courts. The office of the Borough President is just another position, like Public Advocate (but one level less useless than PA) that exists only to pander to political groups and waste public money.
You can compare parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx to one another for example, yet they have more things in common than parts of Brooklyn have to other parts of Brooklyn.
I find my area has more things in common with parts of Staten Island than with many parts of Brooklyn. If the street signs were still color coded by borough, then that would be the only visibly common item.
I've been known to be a Brooklyn patriot, but that's in a different way which I can't seem to figure out how to explain (I've rewritten this sentence three times) and that does have to do with the now useless 1683 boundaries. Modern urban development is different.
If boroughs were separate municipalities, then a comparison would make sense, but they are not and comparisons therefore are meaningless.
1. Do you find the subways to be safer, just as safe, or not as safe as last year?
Still feels just as safe as last year.
2. Which subway line has gotten worse in the past year more than any other line, in terms of reliability and safety?
Probably the E. Tried waiting for one at 42nd St around 8pm on a weekday... took so long for one (What happened??). I generally feel safe on the N/R, but also can be a long wait during offpeak hours.
3. Which borough of NYC, including Staten Island, seems to be more dangerous and decaying than last year?
I can agree with you in saying that downtown Flushing looks so barren at late nights. I've also been hearing more reports of crime in Queens. I've also seen Ridgewood, Queens go down the tubes over the past several years (I used to live there for 12 years) i.e. more graffiti, less people at nights except suspicious people, etc.
4.Which station/terminal areas seems to be the most depressed and in need of revitalization?
Canal St south side. What's taking those DOT guys?? I want to see trains go through there.
[[3. Which borough of NYC, including Staten Island, seems to be more dangerous and decaying than last year?]
[I can agree with you in saying that downtown Flushing looks so barren at late nights. I've also been hearing more reports of crime in Queens. I've also seen Ridgewood, Queens go down the tubes over the past several years (I used to live there for 12 years) i.e. more graffiti, less people at nights except suspicious people, etc.]
Strange as it may seem, the strong economy of the past few years may be a culprit in Queens' decline (of which there does seem to be increasing evidence). Figure it this way. Many people who used to rent in Queens now can afford to own. While some of them are buying houses in the borough, no doubt many others have moved to the suburbs or even to other parts of the country. By and large, the people who move into the vacated rental in Queens probably are less affluent than the new homeowners they replaced - keep in mind that as homeownership rates in general have increased significantly, renters are getting relatively poorer (yes, I know there are many exceptions, I'm speaking in general terms). Queens neighborhoods which are comprised mainly of multifamily rental properties therefore may have gotten poorer during the past several years.
I imagine that The Bronx and Brooklyn haven't been affected by the "homeownership effect" to anywhere near the same extent. Their populations were poorer than Queens' at the start of the economic expansion, and fewer of them have been able to move away. This gives 'hoods in these boroughs a sort of stability that Queens neighborhoods don't have.
Before anyone flames me, keep in mind that these ideas are just my own suppositions, based on what I know about urban development and economics. I do not know if they are in fact supported by statistical data, though we'll probably be able to get some idea once the 2000 Census results are available.
I'd like to add Chambers St. to the list of stations in need of rehab. It's beginning to rival the Colosseum in Rome in terms of ruins.
1. Do you find the subways to be safer, just as safe, or not as safe as last year?
To me, they're always safe.
2. Which subway line has gotten worse in the past year more than any other line, in terms of reliability and safety?
The #5 line
3. Which borough of NYC, including Staten Island, seems to be more dangerous and decaying than last year?
I hate to say it being a Yankee fan but, the Bronx
4.Which station/terminal areas seems to be the most depressed and in need of
revitalization?
Almost any station on the Queens Blvd/Hillside Ave line. Just go to Roosevelt Ave at 7 AM and watch the rats run out from the west end of the platform, and you'll see what I mean! I've never been on the J, M, or Z so I can't say much about'em.
It really looks like there is a good chance that this could be the year that we have our first Subway Series since 1956. Of course New Yorkers will go wild! What team will you be rooting for, The Yankees or The Mets? Vote for your favorite team at the Transit Talk Bulletin Board. Then read the poll results to see which team is a favorite of Rail Fans.
I don't care.
I hope the World Series this year is between the Red Sox and Cubs.
Well because I follow the old wisdom that says, "hope for the best, prepare for the usual" I would expect Yankee's vs Braves III: This time its for money. In the end I just want the Yankees to loose. They are pure evil.
There is an article about re-opening the Landia LIRR station in Locust Grove in Sunday's Newsday. Area commuters are sick and tired of dealing with parking problems at Hicksville and Syosset, and desperately need another station to relieve the overcrowing at Hicksville and Syosset.
There is a long gap between these two stations. The LIRR proposed re-opening the station in the 80s, but community opposition halted the project. Once again area civic groups are trying to stop the idea of re-opening Landia, as well as construction of a new shopping mall in the nearby Cerro wire site.
Recently a large piece of property on the N/E corner of Pulaski and Lake Roads in Greenlawn has been proposed for a new storage yard to accomodate the extra equipment for the GCT project. Since this now vacant land directly across Pulaski Road from many homes the community is opposed to it since the lighting, noise, additional traffic will definitely change the character of the neighborhood from residential to industrial.
Both State Senator Marcello and Assemblyman Flanagan have proposed the Cerro Wire property as an alternative. This is a better site since it is already industrial and was there before houses were built there not the other way around. Also the close proximity to the LIE makes getting people to/from the site easier.
08/14/2000
[Recently a large piece of property on the N/E corner of Pulaski and Lake Roads in Greenlawn has been proposed for a new storage yard to accomodate the extra equipment for the GCT project.]
Wait a minute! Something's fishy here. Greenlawn is on the Oyster Bay Branch, right? The current bi-level equipment on the Oyster Bay Branch cannot operate via the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel to Grand Central because of clearances. What would this proposed yard store? MU's? Third rail goes only as far as East Williston. Can anybody explains this?
Bill "Newkirk"
Greenlawn is the station beyond Huntington on the Port Jeff line. You're probably thinking of GreenVALE, on the OB Line.
Every month I always am on here saying that the 2nd Ave. Subway project should include rebuilding the 3rd Av. El to BMT/INDs and hooking it into the 2nd. Well here's a variation on that....
Obviously even if the 3rd was rebuilt it would be at least 20 years. But I think the North Bronx residents need better service now. What about a track connection from the north end of the Concourse to Gun Hill Road? It would be less than a mile of new subway, half of it under parks, so lawsuits would be minimal. Think about it though. Riders from 241st must transfer at least once or else be stuck on the 2 all the way to downtown (making all local stops in the Bronx). And riders south of there have the 5...but it doesn't run as often, and even then only at rush hours. Besides half the time from what I hear the 5 ends up using the locals south of 180th ANYWAY. So....why not give the people north of Gun Hill a faster ride? By converting the northend to IND, running all Ds 24 hours a day to 241st and all 2s to Gun Hill, service to the north part would be faster. The 5 on that line could be discontinued, and all 5s would use the NYW&B thus adding service there. Now there ARE four stations in between Gun Hill and 180th that would be screwed a little by the disappearance of the 5, but two of them are within easy walking distance of the Morris Park station on the NYW&B in the even that those people had to get to EASTern east midtown. For the other two, well, they'd probably get increased 2 service out of the deal so it would be okay for them too (the 2 is maxed out right now only because the 5 shares with it, service on the 3 could be cut back to make room on the broadway express). Anyway this whole project would only take about 5-6 years once the city approved it. As for the 3rd...the track connection from 205th to Gun Hill would be 2track at 205th, but 4track at Gun Hill (with the two centers merging into the middle and side tracks there), and two of those 4 would turn south under webster and then end there, waiting to be connected to a rebuilt 3rd El or subway.
The 205th-Gun Hill connection probably actually has a better chance than some other ideas in the Bronx that have been proposed by other subtalkers (such as using the NYW&B connection to the amtrak and using two amtrak tracks for subways as far as the 2nd ave.). .001 instead of .0001
--Abe
You have got to be kidding! You are suggesting big capital expenditures to cut a few minutes of travel time for people who already have service instead of providing service to those that do not have it. A capital expenditure in one area means another area cannot be built. Money is always in short supply.
Tom
Original plans called for the IND Concourse line to be extended east from 205th St. under Bronx Park and then under Burke Ave., eventually joining up with the NYW&B tracks near Eastchester Rd. That plan was cancelled, of course, when the NYW&B was connected to the IRT at 180th St. to form the Dyre Ave. line.
But the first segment of this proposal could still be built. Forget about a track connection to the White Plains Rd. line. Just extend the D tracks under the park to Burke Ave. and White Plains Rd., and build a transfer station there. This shouldn't be all that expensive. It would be a lot easier than trying to build on congested Gun Hill Rd., and would still provide faster access to Manhattan for many White Plains Rd. customers, and an alternate route in case of blockages on the almost century-old IRT elevated south of 180th St.
why build ON gun hill road? the subway would hook up with white plains a few blocks south of gun hill and then use the existing lower level platforms that are sitting there from when the 3rd ave el was in service. the ramps from the lowerlevel platforms at gun hill to the upper level would be relatively short, and could be built without disrupting service on the 2/5 until it was done (two tracks being used by the 2/5 at any one time while the third was being built to the ramp. I agree building new stuff over Gun Hill would cost lots more money
A project tearing up cioty parks will be opposed by groups like the Sierra Club.
In Memphis,TN the intent was for Interstate 40 to go through Overton park. Environmentalists griped and the state said "We;ll depress the highway". No Go,--" we'll cover most of it"-still no go! Then the state said "We;ll build a cut and cover tunnel" and still no go, State then agreed to use a new method to keep all dirt within the highway ROW(Slurry wall method))and still no go. They wanted a bored tunnel-- It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and the highway was killed. In the 1908s a propane truck overturned on a sharp curve and jacknifed. The propane tank flew through the air destroying many houses-- what a choice. They saved trees and killed people!
I could imagine the fight if NYC tried to do anything other than a deep bored tunnel under a park
I've always thought the Second Ave. subway could be extended into the Bronx could and could then run as something like an express there, using part of the Metro North ROW (similar to the Red Line in DC with the B&O tracks through Rockville), with stops at 149th-3rd Ave., E. Tremont and Fordham Road before getting to Gun Hill Road. Sharing the ROW with Metro North would avoid the costs of a new tunnel, say, from 155th St. on north, which would cut construction expenses greatly (and make way more sense that terminating the line at 125th and Lex, as the MTA now plans)
Using the old elevated location on the lower level of the Gun Hill Road Station on White Plains Road also wouldn't be as hard this way, since the line could rise from the Metro North open cut to an elevated line while running alongside the park, instead of through it.
At Gun Hill, the line could then make the same S curve the old Third Ave. el did to get from Webster Ave. (next to the Metro Noth cut) over to the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station, which may be gone now, but could certainly be rebuilt to handle B Division trains.
The 2 could terminate on the upper level at Gun Hill, and the Second Ave. line could take over the remaining stations up to 241st-Wakefield. This would also allow both lines to to use the 238th St. yard, since a connection could be maintained north of Gun Hill Road.
that's essentially the long-term version of my idea. The connection to the Concourse Line would be built first, since it's only about a mile. Building it as you said would probably be feasible too - the only problem is where do you put the ramp to the Concourse Line then? If that problem would be solved then yes rebuild the S-curve. Long-term my theory is that if the 2nd Ave. subway local tracks terminated at the 3rd Ave station on the 2/5 (right there in the south Bronx) and if the track connection from the 205-Gun Hill cutoff was built, it would only be a matter of time before they were connected with either a rebuilt 3rd Ave El, new 3rd Ave Subway, or subway tracks in the metro-north ROW. They all have merit. Any project though, even in the Metro-North corridor, would take a good 10 years with the EIS and lawsuits and all that so getting the connection to the Concourse in and rebuilding the northern half of the WPR should be done and only when that is completed should the 3rd/MetroNorth line be built. Otherwise, if they try to build it the other way, in 50 years the Concourse will still end at 205th and 241st will still be IRT.
A Concourse connection would be shorter, but it would be the portal that would present the biggest problem. To get it up to the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station, it would have to emerge before crossing the Bronx River, so the grade would be shallow enough for the trains to make it up the incline. You would also need to bi-level it at the Metro North tracks, to allow a future flying junction connection for the Second Ave. line (or leave enough space to built a flying junction over the Concourse tracks to the southbound Second Ave. line). And, as we all know, once you get into such an elaborate structure above ground, you're into heavy NIMBY territory.
hmmmmm, isn't there enough space between burke and gun hill for a ramp up?
I'm not sure -- due to the dip in the land's elevation for the Bronx River compared to the ridge White Plains Road is on -- whether or not you could get the elevation up fast enough at railroad grade from a tunnel beneath the Bronx River to a portal at Burke to the old Third Ave. El level at Gun Hill and WPR.
Whatever the grade is on the Manny B is probably is the most you could deal with, though a concrete ramp wouldn't have the speed restrictions the bridge has.
If there was a DECENT express from 241st (and I don't mean local as far as 180th) - one that didn't have to wait to merge with local tracks - we could see 241st become a major hub for Light Rail lines to various parts of Westchester County. But that would be dependent on having service from 241st to Midtown in 30-35 minutes - impossible on the Lex no matter how you look at it. 241st's position in the middle of that finger that juts into Westchester makes it an ideal Light Rail terminus. The NYW&B doesn't have enough stations to justify it, the Concourse Express comes close in speed but not close enough to the Westchester Line, and even if the 1/9 went farther north it would be too slow. So the 3rd/Metro North line would be the only way to spur LRT development there.
This subject comes up now and then.
So I guess I shoul get my 2 cents worth in. I had proposed earlier that the Concourde line be extended to link up with Metro North (Harlem Div) tracks. However, the rapid transit tracks would be elevated over the southbound ROW so that the line would serve as the replacement of the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx. Building a new elevated structure over Webster Ave from Fordham Rd south would be a good alternative also. Once you get into the South Bronx, you need a good route to get to a good tunnel crossing to connect up with the 2nd Ave Subway. The Port Morris Branch is a natural for that.
Going north from the Y connection at 205th St, the Metro north and former New Haven ROWs can provide shorter distance rapid transit station sites all the way to White Plains or to Port Chester. I do not know if any plans or proposals have come by for any light or heavy rail rapid transit feeder lines to the current RR ROWs in Westchester.
The other day, I asked if anyone had pictures of the Myrtle Ave. Station Northbound and/or Southbound platforms while they were in operation. This is the abandoned Manhattan Bridge station just North of Dekalb. I was at the Transit Museum, and even they don't have them ! Does anyone here have them?
Regards,
JDL
There was no station on the Myrtle L at Flatbush Avenue Extension, which appears to be the location you're describing. The nearest was Bridge Street, which became Bridge-Jay when the line was cut back. IIRC, all the stations on the lower Myrtle (except the Grand Street junction with the Lex) were island platform.
He's referring to the abandoned Myrtle Av subway station that was on the Brighton/Broadway line a little bit north of DeKalb Av on the way to the Manny B. I think it was abandoned around 1956. I've caught glimpses of it, but I've never come across any photos.
You're correct, Dupont.
JDL
I remember as a kid that the station was so dark youcould hardly see, let alone take photos
Hey Bob,
Was there anything interesting about it, except it's spookiness? Were there mosaics? Or was it plain?
The Grand-Myrtle Station at the junction of the Myrtle-Lex was just about the most interesting station of all with its three side platforms instead of four.
The open pedestrian walkway above and between the two side platforms on Myrtle was an ideal picture taking spot, and I did noy own a camera!
Can you be more specific about this station?
There were side platforms on each side of Myrtle Ave for Myrtle Ave trains, but only one side platform on Grand Ave for Lexington Ave, Bridge-Jay St bound trains to stop at. Lex trains to Eastern Parkway had no station stop because there was no platform for that track.
The two Myrtle Ave platforms were called Grand Ave. The single Lexington platform was called Myrtle Ave. It was connected by fare control at platform level to the one Grand Ave platform. There was a narrow pedestrian walkway over the tracks on Myrtle connecting the two side platforms that were identified as Grand Ave.
The Grand Ave platforms were north of the named street so Lexington Ave Trains turned off onto Grand before reaching the station stop for Grand.
I believe ther are several pictures posted at this site that were taken from the pedestrian walkway.
Bizarre. Why maintain the single platform station for the Lexington Ave. line when the Grand Ave. stop on the Myrtle Ave. line was right on top of it?
I can only guess that at some time in the past there was a need for people to be able to transfer from a westbound Lex to a northbound Myrt.
In the 1940's, which I am most familiar with, there was very little usage of any of the three platforms.
Perhaps this is why they eliminated the complete station complex when the Lex closed down in 1950!
Bridge Jay St was the station which i got off the q's to attend George Westinghouse Vocational and Tech H.S. on Tillery St.in the 60's and the site of a television station run by the H.S.
08/14/2000
Many moons ago at an ERA slide show, there was a slide that went up on the screen that showed the new Myrtle Ave. station in a brand new state. So new was it, that the names on the columns didn't say Myrtle Ave, but GOLD STREET. Anybody out there know about the history of this name change?
Bill "Newkirk"
Last night I watched the not so awful 1976 remake of King Kong. True to form King Kong based his way through an El and ripped appart a train to get that girl he loved. I did a little research and I have determined the train to be an R16 painted white with the bule stripe. King Kong was played by a guy in an ape suit and for the scene they cut to a model of an El and an R16. The model was complete right down to the graffitti on the side. Kong bashed the track in and then picked up the lead car, ripped off the roof and the threw the train down onto the street where it blew up. 2 mistakes I could find were subway cars do not blow up and the guy was able to smash through the little round railfan window with a briefcase. I would have thought that safety standards would have those windows be at least leather proof. I was wondering what they did with those models cause I'd love to have a 4 foot long R16 model.
Are there any movie buffs out there that can tell me what subway car was bashed appart in the origional King Kong? Are there any posters in crew locker rooms or running jokes in T/O school about what to do in case of giant ape attack? Finally its been 25 years since the last remake and I would think its about time for another. What El train would you like to see KIng Kong attack? I'd give the Redbirds favourable odds with their killer doors.
"Attention passengers, we are now experianceing some king kong related turblence. This train will now be running express. Don't worry, he usually lets go after we enter the tunnel."
In the 1933 version Kong smashed up a wooden M.U.D.C. (a multiple unit door car)which were the standard vehicles on the old Manhattan elevateds. I figured this out by checking the arrangement of the lights (two lantern like lights on either side of the front of the car with a single round headlight between them).
Eric D. Smith
08/14/2000
.......but for the interior shot on the 1933 classic, Low-V #4779 was used with the usual screaming passengers. A broadside picture of #4779 appears on page 49 of Joseph Cunningham and Leonard DeHart's out of print book...A History of the New York City Subway System Part I [ The Manhattan Els and the IRT]. Great book if you can find a copy.
Bill "Newkirk"
Unless, of course, the filmakers just happened to put the number 4779 on their car interior mock-up....Hollywood in those days wasn't very much on location shooting in those days....
No, I think it was Steinway Lo-V #4977. How it got to the 6th Avenue el is a mystery to me.
wayne
Mike;
You might take a minute to check the rest of this site. In the area concerning Subways in the Movies there is the following about "King Kong":
"The 1933 classic with Fay Wray features Kong wreaking havok on the 6th
Avenue El, and shows the interior of a Low-V El car (#4977). The forgettable
1976 remake substitutes the destruction of the Astoria El, and R16-type cars
(#6311 was one, but the interiors were sets)."
Tom
I thought it was the 3 Avenue el?
08/14/2000
[I thought it was the 3 Avenue el?]
Well, by 1976 the 3rd Ave "el' was long gone so the Astoria Line was the nearest "el" to destroy!
Bill "Newkirk"
Also in the movie King Kong gets loose in Queens and after bashing the El he wades accross the east river and then goes to climb the World Trade Centre (you gotta keep it modern).
Wasn't the RI Tram involved somehow?
I don't think so. They had national guard troops on the queensboro though.
I think Jorge meant the 1933 version......In which case the 6th ave el would be natural because [supposedly] Kong broke out of some kind of theater on Broadway.....[Maybe the old Hippodrome??]
Oops, I meant the 3 Avenue el in the 1933 version.
The 1933 version depicted the 6th Ave el. You can see the turn at 53rd St. in one scene, just before Kong appears in front of the train and the motorman slams on the brakes.
08/14/2000
[ 2 mistakes I could find were subway cars do not blow up and the guy was able to smash through the little round railfan window with a briefcase.]
Not only do subway cars blow up as in Hollywood flicks, but as in Die Hard-with a vengeance when a bomb goes off in a subway car, the car doesn't slide across the platform mowing down people and benches. I guess the air compressor,resistor grids and group switch box makes that a tad bit difficult.
THAT'S HOLLYWOOD FOR YOU!
Bill "Newkirk"
The car was R16 #6316. Did you notice that there was no crossbar in the storm door window during the interior shots (although it WAS round) and the axiflo fans were too small BUT the slanted door motor pockets were there and the interoir color of the car was correct - pistachio ice gream puke green.
wayne
Personally I would have Kong destroy a Dyre train waiting on the ramp for a 2 to clear 180th (just to rub it in to 5 riders). or perhaps a 5-Dyre waiting on the express track to merge with the local becaause a 5-White Plains was already using it.
Nah, I'd like to see Kong tear an R-44 or R-68 apart.
personally i'd like to see him get the bombardiers. LONG LIVE THE REDBIRDS
I'd have King Kong mash some Kawasaki R62's. He could wade out of Yankee Stadium and rip up the Jerome El.
I had some kind of gummy candy a year or so ago that had Godzilla on the box and it showed all kinds of mashed, crumpled and otherwise smushed R62-type cars (without signs or numbers) all over it amidst all kinds of other NYC wreckage. I forget what it was called. I think I saved the box somewhere. (gets up to look for box) - AH YES, here it is - on top of my bookcase - Brach's "GODZILLA" fruit snacks. I haven't seen them in the store in a while.
Godzilla LOVES Kawasaki subway cars! Bombardiers taste funny to him.
wayne
Yesterday I just missed the ENY-bound 'J' at Crescent Street, so to kill time looked over the neighborhood map just outside fare control. I notice the 'A', 'C' 'H' and JFK express passing Grant Avenue; no 'Z' train; the B56 running along Jamaica Avenue and the B22 along Atlantic. Sensing this was SERIOUSLY out of date, I looked for the copyright at the bottom: 1985! I was so busy looking for more anachronisms, I almost missed the next train.
Considering all the elevated stations along the 'J' were renovated in 1988(?), it's surprising that they missed this one. I don't know if anybody actually use these maps for their root purpose, which is to find schools, churches, theatres etc. in the area around the station, but it probably doesn't matter much if bus lines and other subway lines that happen to appear on the map are shown by their old designations.
Given that, is there really any point to the Neighborhood Maps, besides to give you something to do while you wait for your train?
Crescent Street is unusual in that it's the only elevated station with island platforms where the fare control is ON TRACK LEVEL. Wonder if the curve has anything to do with it?
>> ...the only elevated station with
>> island platforms where the fare control
>> is ON TRACK LEVEL....
Sure got alot of those 'round our homeline..
I do know quite a few people who regularly use the Neighborhood Maps to find their way to nearby destinations once leaving fare control.
A month or two ago I saw an out of date map at Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn, which also has been renovated. IIRC the map showed a yellow diamond Q, the JFK Express, and the M on the Brighton Line.
All of the stations on Fulton Street have that layout.
Not true. Van Siclen Ave. and Alabama Ave have traditional mezzanines under the platforms.
I have not seen Crescent St since it was renovated about 1981, but fare control was always at the platform level. Norwood Ave was the same way in the old days, and I suspect that the other three were similar.
since they are all that way I don't believe that the turn has anything to do with it!
For as long as I can remember Crescent, Norwood, and Cleveland all had fare control in the waiting room at track level. Same setup as on lower Myrtle until it was razed.
The stations east of Crescent, along Jamaica Ave, were all rehabbed in 1988-9. The stations along Fulton Street were completely rebuilt in 79-80. I can remember riding J trains past each particular station when it was closed for renovation. Van Siclen Ave was completely razed, and for a time it was hard to tell a station existed there.
Wasn't Van Siclen Ave originally a side platform station that was renovated into an island platform station about 85 years ago?
Not sure, but I doubt it, because Van Siclen Ave. was a terminal station from 1889 to 1903.
I had a transit buff neighbor in Cypress Hills who told me this 50 years ago. It supposedly was before the Jamaica Line was extended beyond Cypress Hills.
Van Siclen Ave was supposedly a two side platform station with a third track where the station is now. The third track arrangement at Van Siclen was very similar to what is located at 111th St now!
I guess I shouldn't say now but rather what 111th St was around 1950!
The track configuration at 111th St. is identical to what it was 50 years ago, at least I think it is. In fact, the middle track here is in such bad shape, it looks like the original 1917 track.
I wish you could have seen the terminal operation conducted at 111th St prior to Oct 13th 1950. It was the end of the line for the Lexington Ave Line during rush hours. Gate trains of three cars would arrive at the start of rush hour, and depart as five car trains. Five car trains would arrive at the end of rush hour and depart as three car trains. The gate cars were very flexible with motorman's cabs at both ends, and a lead car during morning rush could be in the middle of a five car train during evening rush.
Extra cars were laid up on the middle track between the platforms, and sometimes there were as many as eight cars setting there.
They seemed to be able to mix 600's, 900's, 1200's and 1400's in any order they wanted to in a train.
All of the 1300's and the 200 series trailers were used on the Fulton-Lex Line terminating at Grant Ave.
It was fascinating to watch, and 111th St was the place to be for a gate car fan during rush hours.
In reference to the Van Siclen Ave question I'll bet that Larry Redbird would have the info as to whether it ever was in fact a side platform station.
The maps at Roosevelt Ave. show the N, M32, and Q89.
08/14/2000
Speaking of outdated signs.....go to Stillwell Terminal. At the foot of the stairs on the lower mezzanine there is a black with white lettered MTA sign for the (D). The sign above the stair has the ORANGE (D) for 6th Ave, but the on the same sign by the outer ends for the ramps are YELLOW the (D) for Broadway ......OOPS !
Bill "Newkirk"
Every sign on the F platform also has one or two yellow letters remaining (incl Yellow Q!). People pull off the stickers covering them.
wait since when did the Q use the culver?
Henry R32 #3730 is referring to the signs that list the transfers to the other trains.
I remember, before the MVMs came to 46th Street-Bliss Street, a neighborhood map that showed the R going to Astoria, the N serving the other 46th Street station (on Broadway), and my "beloved" B30 bus still turning around at 47th Street & Greenpoint Avenue.
Some stations in Manhattan have newer neighborhood maps. They're pretty useful if you don't know the neighborhood around the station you just got off at.
I wonder if sometime in the near future, someone will publish something similar to WMATA's StationMaster guide for New York.
Not this past weekend, but the weekend before, I took a trip to upstate New York. I chose as my mode of travel Amtrak's Empire Service. This was my first time riding over former New York Central lines, and following are my observations and questions. I have bolded the parts of this post in which I have queries, in case any gracious NYC RR fans care to respond. If so, it would be much appreciated.
My first mistake was waiting in my customary spot at Penn Station, which is in the open space (if there is such a thing in Penn Station) on the 33rd Street side of the departure display board. If I had been thinking, I would have waited on the south side, closer to track 5, from which our train departed. I should have remembered that the lead to the West Side freight line was built south of the Hudson River tunnel leads.
I fought my way through the Friday evening throngs and settled in for the trip. The west side freight line yielded few sights, as much of the line passes through the darkness of the tunnel under Riverside Park. Just before entering the Bronx, however, I observed a huge, elevated roadway to our right. I'm not talking about the West Side Highway, which was on the other side. This was a rather ornate, gray, latticed steel structure, obviously a supporting a vehicular ROW, upon which I observed school buses parked. I had never seen this before. What street is this? Beneath is another street. Does it have a different street name? I assumed this structure must have been built to span some part of "Manhattan Valley" which the west side IRT line also bridges at 125th Street.
When we got to the end of the freight line, I noticed we traversed a very low bridge over the "mouth" of the Harlem River. Is this a swing bridge? I observed a Circle Line boat in the distance and wondered how often the Amtrak bridge swings open, and whether Amtrak has ever had to wait for boat traffic.
I was surprised to see nice homes on the bluffs in Riverdale. I work with a guy who lives there whose car is stolen every couple of months. I had pictured it as a typical crowded, run-down place, not one with trees, grass, and single-family dwellings! Pleasant surprise!
There used to be a nice station at Yonkers (and, I noticed later, at Scarborough). Metro North has built new platforms a bit north of the old station, and the building looks sad, being so obviously and directly shunned. More importantly, I noticed some R-142s being stored in a yard there (went by too fast to even begin to guess whether they were Kawasaki "A's" or Bombardiers). Are there direct connections between the subway and a yard in Yonkers? I know Yonkers abuts the Bronx, but I didn't realize the subway tracks extended beyond the Bronx.
I next noticed an empty rail yard just south of Philipse Manor. I have no idea what this may be/have been used for.
It also struck me how physically close the NYC tracks are to the Hudson. Often, between the city and Albany, we were riding on something of a causeway, with swampy wetlands to our right and the river to our left. Other times, it looked exactly like the ride along the Susquehanna River in Central PA, near Harrisburg, which is a line I'm much more familiar with. (BTW, the Susquehanna is just as wide as the Hudson, but with an average a depth of only 4 ft. It's the longest, non-navigable river in the world.)
I eventually arrived at Croton-Harmon. I guess there must be MNRR maintenance shops there, because I saw a wrecked Harlem/Hudson line (Budd?) car as well as a red-striped New Haven line car, looking like it lost its way. I also saw some modern diesel consists with Metro North livery. (Do these go all the way from Poughkeepsie to Grand Central Terminal? If so, why do they allow diesel engines inside the Park Avenue Tunnel? NJT Raritan Line commuters are well aware of the diesel restrictions for the Hudson River tunnel. Why not the same under Park Avenue?) Most exiting was the sight of 2 green locomotive/coaches in the yard to the right. You could still see "Erie Lackawana" on the side, and 2 rusty pantographs on top of each car. What type of locos were these, and what service are/were they used for? Next most exiting was the view of a consist of silver metroliner style coaches/locomotives(?), sporting "Metro North" logos. I say "metroliner style" because I'm not sure if they were actually metroliners or not. They did have the rounded, silver sides and a "hump" atop each car. Are these former Penn Central Metroliners, and what did MNRR use them for?
As we traveled on towards Albany, I noticed several very high steel train trestles spanning both our ROW and the Hudson. I wondered if they were still in use. Also, I took note of several grade-crossings between the city and Albany. The Hudson station, outside the MNRR commuter zone, was an exception to my earlier observation, as it looks as though it has been beautifully restored and is in use. However, another sad station sighting occurred as we zoomed by Hyde Park. You can still see a station building, but the property has been separated from the tracks by a chain-link fence. Does anyone have any timetables showing Hyde Park, or other no-longer-used stations on the NYC "main line" between the city and Buffalo?
We finally reached Albany-Rensselaer. Some interesting sights here included the new post-modern station/parking garage still under construction. This should be a nice facility upon its completion. I also saw what might be a road-railer facility there. But the most exiting sight was of 5 gleaming, brand new(?) "California Surfliners," sitting on a siding, north of the station. One was a baggage+coach car. IIRC, there is a train-car manufacturing plant upstate near there. Bombardier, at Plattsburgh, I think. Perhaps these coaches were fresh from the factory awaiting transport to California. I wonder if Amtrak was doing the transporting themselves. On my return trip they were gone, so I imagine they are trailing their way to California already. Unfortunately, we had a long delay at Albany. It perturbed me somewhat when I heard the conductor announce over the PA that we were refuelling!! It seems like someone should have planned ahead a little better. Also, he told us that we were waiting for the southbound train to enter Albany so we could proceed. The bridge across the Hudson has more than one track, but there must have been track-work. As we crossed the river and caught a nice view of the actual city of Albany, I wondered how long Albany's rail station has been located across the river in Rensselaer. Did Albany ever have its own station? If so, when was it abandoned/torn down? Where did the lines serving it go? I have timetables from the very beginning of the Amtrak era (1972-73), which show "Albany-Renssalaer," so if Albany ever had a station, it was not in use as much as almost 30 years ago. Incidentally, the timetable for "Amtrak New York - Buffalo Trains" shows GCT as the New York City terminus. When did Amtrak begin using the west side freight line and abandon GCT?
As we traveled on the New York Central main line (was it called "main line"?), I thought we were "wrong-railing," as I could see tracks to our right. Is this the usual track for westbound Amtrak trains? Also, I saw many more freights (CSX) on the line than I'm used to compared to the Keystone Corridor.
I got off at Utica, for another sad station experience. Utica now has one ground-level platform served by both east- and westbound trains. There are several abandoned station tracks there, which I'm told used to be accessed by underground passageways, since filled-in. Was this a common NYC System station design? The station interior was nice enough. It was built as a "Union Station," with marble columns, walls, and floors. You could easily see hints of its once-grand nature, however, it is located it the most desolate neighborhood in the city, which for Utica is saying something. Outside, mounted on 3 separate tracks with no connection to the main line, there are an old PRR caboose, a NYCRR steam locomotive, and a diesel/coach consist labeled "Adirondack Railway," all museum pieces, much like the GG-1 in Harrisburg's station yard.
All-in-all, the trip was not bad, except for both directions' being over ½ hour late. I shelled out for a Business Class ticket, as I mentioned in a previous thread. In that discussion, SubTalkers told me that I would have to contend with annoying cell-phone users in "Business Class," but that I would be avoiding rambunctious kids. Funnily enough, the opposite happened. I heard no cell-phone users, and my return trip had two families with young children sporting Business Class tickets. Go figure.
The bridge at the mouth of the Harlem is a swing bridge.
The diesel hauled Metro North trains are pulled by P32-AC-DM's that have both Diesel engines and 3rd ral shoes.
The Green EL cars are 1920's vintage 3000 VDC MU cars for use on the Morris and Essex division. They were retired in 1983 and most were transfered to tourist lines accross the country. The Metroliner cars are ConnDot SPV's build by Budd. They were designed as the second generation RDC, but were very unrelyable and all were de-powered and converted to cab-cars.
Albany Union Station was built in 1900 right accross the river in Albany. It was just over the passenger draw bridge. I think that the passeger draw was abandonned and Amtrak had to use the station in Rensselaer and then proceede over the paralell freight draw (Livingston Ave. Bridge or LAB) I have 1977 picutres of Amtrak in Rensselaer so it was before that. I believe that the old station in Albany is still standing as a museum or something. In 1994 Amtrak was using Penn for Empire Service so it was befor that. 1992 rings a bell.
The NYC line through NY state was either called the Main Line or the Water Level Route. You might have been wrong railing, but the Chicago Line has many 3 track sections including frequent sigings that average about 3 miles in legnth. I have seen many NYC station pics that they usually have island platforms in the middle of a 4 track main so I assume that tunnles were a common feature. The reason you saw more Freight trains than on the Keystone corridor was because the Keystone corridor is owned by Amtrak and has very few freight trains on it (only locals). After 1976 Conrail moved all NY-West freight trains onto the LVRR-Reading NY-Harrisburg line. The NS Harrisburg Line from Reading to Harrisburg sees 50 to 60 freights a day.
Here's a little referance that might help you look back on your trip.
CONRAIL
ALBANY DIVISION
CHICAGO LINE (W) (CHIL)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|IN|INT|BLK| STATION | MP | SIDINGS | TRK | N |
| |STA|STA|Distance from New York, G.C.T. | | | | |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|X |...|...|CP-142 (Post Road Branch and | | | | |
| | | | Hudson Line)...............R-L|142.0| ....... | M12 |....|
|..|...|...|ALBANY-RENSSELAER...............|142.1| ....... | M12 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-143.....................R-LAB|142.2| ....... | M 1 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-144.....................R-LAB|142.4| ....... | S |....|
|X | X |...|LAB (Movable Bridge and | | | | |
| | | | Troy Industrial)..............|143.1| ....... | S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-145 (D&H RR)............R-LAB|143.6| ....... | S |....|
|..|...|...|ROCK CUT........................|145.2| ....... | S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-146..........................|146.9| ....... | S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-156 (Carman Branch)..........|156.5| 15750CS | S C |....|
|X |...|...|CP-159..........................|159.6| "" | S C |....|
|..|...|...|SCHENECTADY.....................|159.8| "" | S C |....|
|X |...|...|CP-160 (D&H RR).................|159.9| "" | S |....|
|..|...|...|*DED "Scotia"...................|164.0| ....... | S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-169 (Selkirk Branch).........|169.9| ....... | S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-173..........................|173.2| 10900CS | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-175..........................|175.5| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Guy Park".............|177.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|AMSTERDAM.......................|177.6| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-184..........................|184.5| 16200CS | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-188..........................|187.9| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*DED "Mohawk"...................|189.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-196..........................|196.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-198..........................|198.8| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Fort Plain"...........|200.7| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-203..........................|203.7| 18200CS | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-207..........................|207.3| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*DED "Manneheim"................|211.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-215..........................|215.1| 16000CS | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-218..........................|218.3| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Herkimer".............|220.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-223..........................|223.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|HERKIMER........................|223.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-225 (Herkimer Industrial)....|225.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*DED "Schuyler".................|230.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-234..........................|234.1| ....... | 1 2 |1 |
|X |...|...|CP-235 (Utica Yard and Lyons | | | | |
| | | | Falls Secondary)..............|235.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|UTICA...........................|237.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-237 (NYS&W RR)...............|237.7| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-239..........................|239.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Whitesboro"...........|241.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-248 (Rome Industrial)........|248.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|ROME............................|251.3| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-251..........................|251.6| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-257..........................|257.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Oneida"...............|262.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-263..........................|263.8| 10700CS | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-266..........................|266.0| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|CANASTOTA.......................|269.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-270..........................|270.3| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-278..........................|278.4| ....... | 412 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Kirkville"............|280.0| ....... | 412 |....|
|..|...|...|KIRKVILLE.......................|280.1| ....... | 412 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-283..........................|283.8| 10300CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|DEWITT YARD.....................|284.0| "" | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|SYRACUSE........................|285.5| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-285..........................|286.0| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|HCD..........Van Yard Lead 20'2"|.... | ....... | 1 2 |3 |
|X |...|...|CP-286..........................|286.6| ....... | 127 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-291 (Montreal Secondary).....|291.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-293 (Auburn and | | | | |
| | | | Baldwinsville Secondaries)....|293.5| 15300CS | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-296..........................|296.8| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|WARNERS.........................|300.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-300..........................|300.7| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Memphis"..............|302.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|MEMPHIS.........................|302.6| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-306..........................|306.3| 11250CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|JORDAN..........................|307.7| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-308..........................|308.7| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|NORTH WEEDSPORT.................|312.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-313..........................|313.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|NORTH PORT BYRON................|315.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*DED "Brutus"...................|316.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|FOX RIDGE.......................|318.8| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|SENECA RIVER....................|320.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-320..........................|320.5| 13400CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|SAVANNAH........................|322.4| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-323..........................|323.2| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Savannah".............|323.6| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-326..........................|326.7| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|CLYDE...........................|328.6| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-329..........................|329.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-334...............Corning Sec|334.9| 5750CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|LYONS................Corning Sec|335.6| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-335...............Corning Sec|335.8| "" | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-340..........................|340.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|NEWARK (Ontario Midland RR).....|341.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-342..........................|342.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "East Palmyra".........|345.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|PALMYRA.........................|348.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-349..........................|349.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|WALWORTH........................|351.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|NORTH MACEDON...................|353.6| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|WAYNEPORT.......................|358.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-359 (West Shore Branch)......|359.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|FAIRPORT........................|361.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-362..........................|362.8| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|EAST ROCHESTER..................|363.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Brighton".............|364.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-367..........................|367.9| 27984CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|ROCHESTER YARD..................|369.6| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-369..........................|369.9| "" | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|ROCHESTER.......................|371.0| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-373 (Charlotte Running Tr)...|373.2| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|COLDWATER.......................|378.0| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-380..........................|380.4| 10100CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|CHILI...........................|381.8| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-382 (West Shore Branch)......|382.6| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|CHURCHVILLE.....................|385.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Churchville"..........|386.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|BERGEN..........................|389.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-393..........................|393.8| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|SOUTH BYRON.....................|395.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-402 (Batavia Ind)............|402.4| 20650CS | 12S |....|
|..|...|...|BATAVIA.........................|402.9| "" | 12S |....|
|X |...|...|CP-406..........................|406.7| "" | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Batavia"..............|407.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-410..........................|410.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|CORFU...........................|414.8| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-415..........................|415.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-417..........................|417.7| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|WENDE...........................|422.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-423..........................|423.4| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Lancaster"............|427.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|LANCASTER.......................|428.9| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-429..........................|429.8| ....... | 4312|....|
|X |...|...|CP-431 (A Industrial)...........|431.1| ....... | 4312|2 |
|..|...|...|DEPEW AMTRAK STATION............|431.7| ....... | 4312|....|
|X |...|...|CP-433..........................|433.1| ....... | 312 |....|
|..|...|...|FRONTIER YARD...................|433.5| ....... | 312 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-434..........................|434.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|STOCK YARD......................|436.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-437 (Bailey Av Br, Niagara Br| | | | |
| | | | Compromise Br, Howard St Run..|437.2| ....... | 1 2 |....|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | |Distance from CP-437 |0.0 | | | |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|X |...|...|CP-DRAW (NS, B&P, SB, BS, Bison | | | | |
| | | | Run., Beach Lead).............|1.7 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-2 (Compromise Br., Beach | | | | |
| | | | Lead Xing, Lead to Ohio St. Yd|2.1 | ....... | 312 |....|
|..|...|...|SENECA YARD.....................|2.2 | ....... | 312 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-5 (Buffalo Line).............|5.4 | ....... | 312 |....|
|..|...|...|BAY VIEW........................|8.0 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|DIVISION POST (Pittsburgh Div)..|8.2 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tracks #ed N to S
NOTE-The distance between MP286 to MP294 is 8.8 miles (5827 foot miles)
1. CP on No. 2 Track only.
2. CP on No. 3 and 4 tracks only.
3. HCD operation must be observed by crew member on south side of the
track. Strobe light and bell activation when exception detected.
ETT #2 01/01/92
CONRAIL
ALBANY DIVISION
HUDSON LINE (N) (HUDL)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|IN|INT|BLK| STATION | MP | SIDINGS | TRK | N |
| |STA|STA|Distance from New York, G.C.T. | | | | |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|..|...|...|POUGHKEEPSIE....................|73.6 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-75 (MNCR)....................|75.5 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|DIVISION POST (MNCR)............|75.8 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|RHINECLIFF......................|89.2 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-89...........................|89.8 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-94...........................|94.2 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|*HBD-DED "Tivoli"...............|99.0 | ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-103..........................|103.8| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-114..........................|114.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|HUDSON (Hudson Upper Ind.)......|114.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|..|...|...|CP-115..........................|115.4| ....... | 1 2 |1 |
|..|...|...|*DED "Stuyvesant"...............|121.5| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-124..........................|123.7| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-125 (Selkirk Branch).........|125.6| ....... | 1 2 |2 |
|..|...|...|CP-141.....................R-LAB|141.1| ....... | 1 2 |....|
|X |...|...|CP-142 (Post Road Branch, | | | | |
| | | | Chicago Line)............R-LAB|142.0| ....... | S |....|
|..|...|...|ALBANY-RENSSELAER STATION.......|142.1| ....... | S |....|
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tracks #ed E to W
NOTE- CP-142 and the Albany-Rensselaer Station located on the Chicago Line.
1. In service for southward movements only.
2. In service on No. 2 Track only
ETT #2 01/01/92
Keystone Pete - You will likely get many answers on your post and so I'll try and answer those that are easiest for me:
Your questions - " Just before entering the Bronx,
however, I observed a huge, elevated roadway to our right. I'm not talking about the West Side Highway,
which was on the other side. This was a rather ornate, gray, latticed steel structure, obviously a supporting a
vehicular ROW, upon which I observed school buses parked. I had never seen this before. What street is this?"
Answer - I think you were looking at Riverside Drive. It becomes an elevatee structure in the 150's or so for maybe 10 blocks.
Question - "More importantly, I noticed some R-142s being stored in a yard there (went by too fast to even begin to guess whether they were
Kawasaki "A's" or Bombardiers). Are there direct connections between the subway and a yard in Yonkers? I know Yonkers abuts the Bronx, but I didn't realize the subway tracks extended beyond the Bronx."
Answer - I believe you saw the assembly plant that used to be the old Otis Elevator plant. This is the location that is being used to store newly built R142s. It's in the Yonkers area.
Question - "empty rail yard just south of Philipse Manor. I have no idea what this may be/have been used for."
Answer - This was the old North Tarrytown GM plant rail yard. GM is gone from this plant for a few years and with it - the need for a rail yard.
Questions re Croton Harmon - "I also saw some modern diesel consists with Metro North livery. (Do these go all the way from Poughkeepsie to
Grand Central Terminal? If so, why do they allow diesel engines inside the Park Avenue Tunnel?"
Answers - Yes, diesels do service GCT via the Park Avenue tunnels. FL9 diesels were the first in regular service (displaying electric motors) first for New Haven and later for New Haven as well as former New York Central Harlem and Hudson divisions. These diesels have a third rail pick up shoe and when in good shape - can run on third rail DC. Many of them don't anymore because of simple age and perhaps design problems. You would also have noticed some GE Genesis engines and these too run on third rail inside of the Park Avenue tunnel.
Questions re Croton Harmon - "Most exiting was the sight of 2 green locomotive/coaches in the yard to the right. You could
still see "Erie Lackawana" on the side, and 2 rusty pantographs on top of each car. What type of locos were
these, and what service are/were they used for?"
Answer - What you saw were two MU electrics that are former Delaware, Lackawana commuter cars. They ran on some unique version of DC and are obviously no longer in service. I believe the two you saw are privately owned and may end up in a museum.
Questions re Croton Harmon - " Next most exiting was the view of a consist of silver
metroliner style coaches/locomotives(?), sporting "Metro North" logos. I say "metroliner style" because I'm
not sure if they were actually metroliners or not. They did have the rounded, silver sides and a "hump" atop
each car. Are these former Penn Central Metroliners, and what did MNRR use them for?"
Answer - What you saw were some defunct Budd SPV cars. These were diesel powered and ran with a pair of Detroit Diesel engines and Allison hydraulic transmission. They were delivered to MNCRR as commuter coaches. Amtrak bought a few as well. They were badly designed, failed miserably in service and earned the nickname "seldom powerd vehicle." The blister on the top is for cooling and exhaust. These were built in the early '80's and were a planned replacement for Budd RDC cars. In fact, the surviving ones that are not on scrap lines were de-motored and serve as trailing coaches. You won't find any in service on MNCRR. But there may be some in service under Amtrak - probably not - but maybe.
Good luck with the rest of your questions.
Answer - I think you were looking at Riverside Drive. It becomes an elevatee structure in the 150's or so for maybe 10 blocks.
It's from LaSalle Street (125th Street winds to the northwest and reaches 130th by the time it gets to the river, LaSalle Street continues its normal path) to 135th Street.
You're both right. Riverside is elevated from 125 to 135, and again in the area of 157th. The stretch in the 150's is not as long or as dramatic as the viaduct (?) over Manhattan Valley.
Chuck
Riverside only crosses over or under 158th, there is no viaduct. The interesting part of Riverside there is that it splits in to two, this is the ONLY place Riverside has addresses on both sides, and it also requires Queens style numbers to be used on the western branch. (eg, 157-04 Riverside Drive).
[Question - "More importantly, I noticed some R-142s being stored in a yard there (went by too fast to even begin to guess whether they were Kawasaki "A's" or Bombardiers). Are there direct connections between the subway and a yard in Yonkers? I know Yonkers abuts the Bronx, but I didn't realize the subway tracks extended beyond the Bronx."
Answer - I believe you saw the assembly plant that used to be the old Otis Elevator plant. This is the location that is being used to store newly built R142s. It's in the Yonkers area.]
Most of the work actually is done at Kawasaki's plant in Japan. Largely complete carbodies are shipped to Yonkers for finishing touches. Kawasaki used the Yonkers plant in the same manner for the LIRR and MARC bilevel coaches.
[Question - "empty rail yard just south of Philipse Manor. I have no idea what this may be/have been used for."
Answer - This was the old North Tarrytown GM plant rail yard. GM is gone from this plant for a few years and with it - the need for a rail yard.]
It is a tragic commentary on New York State, its anti-business climate in particular, that no one seriously considered reusing the GM site for another auto plant. At least a couple of foreign automakers are on the hunt for new plant sites in the United States - IIRC, Subaru and BMW. New York isn't even at the bottom of their lists, needless to say.
A park is planned for the old GM site once cleanup is complete. It might create, oh, three or four groundskeeper jobs. How pathetic.
Answer - What you saw were two MU electrics that are former Delaware, Lackawana commuter cars. They ran on some unique version of DC and are obviously no longer in service. I believe the two you saw are privately owned and may end up in a museum.
I think those cars have been sitting there for almost 10 years now! I remember seeing them around Christmas of '91 or '92 when I took a train trip to Schnectady. It was dark on the return trip, so I thought they might have been some old electrics from the New Haven/NY Central days. Is anyone taking care of them, or are they just rotting away?
They are used as storage by the architectural firm that occupies the adjacent former station building.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
> As we crossed the river and caught a nice view of the actual
> city of Albany, I wondered how long Albany's rail station has
> been located across the river in Rensselaer. Did Albany ever
> have its own station? If so, when was it abandoned/torn down?
Albany Union Station, a nifty old beaux-arts structure dating from the turn of the century, ceased being used as a passenger station in 1968. The headhouse building is still in use as the headquarters of Fleet National Bank. See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/1999/10/18/focus3.html
The station was relocated to Rensselaer as part of the pre-Amtrak NYC/Penn Central Empire Service project. The first, very spartan Albany-Rensselaer station was replaced with the present Amtrak facility some time around 1980, and a much larger replacement for that one is due to open later this year. See:
http://www.cdta.org/NewRailStation.html
> Where did the lines serving it go?
In addition to the obvious NYC main line and Boston & Albany, Union Station at one time served trains on the West Shore, the Delaware & Hudson (north to Montreal and southwest to Binghamton), Rutland, and Boston & Maine.
> Incidentally, the timetable for "Amtrak New York - Buffalo
> Trains" shows GCT as the New York City terminus. When did Amtrak
> begin using the west side freight line and abandon GCT?
Amtrak moved all Empire Corridor service to Penn Station on April 7, 1991.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
A note about the swing bridge over the mouth of the Harlem River: it is normally kept in the open position (boats can get through), it is closed when trains approach and opened again when they have passed.
There is no track connection from the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers (where you saw the R-142As) to the New York City subway: the cars are delivered by truck to the NYCT 239th St. yard.
Is the swing bridge automated, or is there a human working it, watching for approaching trains? I know this sounds stupid, but an electronic signal or timer seems dangerous.
There is a person controlling it. The bridge is always open for boat traffic until 10 minutes prior to a train that is schedule, then it swings to let the train through, then opens again
[IIRC, there is a train-car manufacturing plant upstate near there. Bombardier, at Plattsburgh, I think.]
With all the great answers you got I'm suprised nobody commented on this. Plattsburgh is nowhere near Albany. Its about 180 miles north of Albany just before the Canadian border. I should know, I spent the afternoon at the Harley-Davidson dealer in Plattsburgh when my bike broke down just outside of Plattsburgh on a trip to Montreal in 1995!! Well, at least I was still in the states. Another 20 miles and I would have broke down in a foreign country, and I don't speak French!!!
Reminds me of the "map" of the US showing NYC, the Hudson River, a thin strip of land west of the Hudson, and then the Pacific Ocean.
If you live in NYC, anything north of Westchester is "near Albany."
Actually, isn't NYC closer to Albany than Albany is to Plattsburgh?
Actually, isn't NYC closer to Albany than Albany is to Plattsburgh?
No, but there isn't much difference - 160 miles Albany-NYC, 152 Albany-Plattsburgh.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pete: The two wrecked Metro-North cars that you saw were numbers 8314 and 8315. They have been out of service for several years and probably will never run again. They are no longer on rail and I don't believe that they have wheel trucks either.
Larry,RedbirdR33
However, another sad station sighting occurred as we zoomed by Hyde Park. You can still see a station building, but the property has been separated from the tracks by a chain-link fence.
The building, however, has been preserved, and last I knew was home to a model RR club, so it still has "railroad" usage.
As we traveled on towards Albany, I noticed several very high steel train trestles spanning both our ROW and the Hudson. I wondered if they were still in use.
Only one is a railroad bridge, and that one is no longer in service. Here's a list of all bridges that span the Hudson between NYC and Albany:
George Washington Bridge
Tappan Zee Bridge
Bear Mountain Bridge
Newburgh-Beacon Bridge (twin span)
Mid-Hudson Bridge (automobile span at Poughkeepsie)
Poughkeepsie Bridge (RR span, opened for traffic in 1881, damaged by fire on 8 May 1974 and abandoned)
Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge
vehicle bridge at Hudson - sorry, I don't remember the name
RR bridge at Selkirk and a couple of vehicular bridges
I don't think I've left any out...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
vehicle bridge at Hudson - sorry, I don't remember the name
That's the Rip van Winkle.
After that, there's the Thruway Berkshire Extension, THEN the Selkirk Bridge, then the southernmost toll free bridge over the Hudson River, the US-9 Bridge.
OK, thanks for the clarification/correction. And while we're at it I'll correct a typo I made - the Poughkeepsie bridge opened in December 1888, not 1881.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't the Selkirk RR bridge just before (south of) the Berkshire Section bridge? I remember driving on the Berkshire Section bridge and seeing a RR bridge right alongside, I'm almost certain it was on the south side.
I was also very surprised to see that the Berkshire Section bridge, though part of the Thruway, had no divider. While the portion containing the bridge (between exits 21A and B1) is technically not an Interstate highway, it still seemed very odd.
According to Rand-McNally, Selkirk, NY is north of the Berkshire Extension.
I remember seeing the rail bridge north of the Berkshire Extension on MapQuest, so I won't look for it now.
I've decided to look at MapQuest again, and while Selkirk is north of the Berkshire Extension, it is not on the riverfront and it curves southward as it approaches the river and ends up directly south of the Berkshire bridge.
A few weeks ago, someone asked if freights ever went over the Hell's Gate Bridge.
Here's proof.
I took this picture at about 10:50am on Thursday, August 10.
Todd, very funny picture.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
We have a couple of even nicer pictures of freight on the Hell Gate thanks to Joe Testagrose:
in the top picture (enlarged) you see a passenger job. it is a g-motor with rea cars. if look closer you can see steam lines. this pre-amtrack days.
One will never know what can be found on the Bridge. Wouldn't it be great to be standing on the platform at Ditmars Blvd and you find NY City Subway Cars above your head? The new R-142s get delivered to the system through the Hell's Gate Bridge via a freight carrier to Fresh Pond Junction.
-Stef
I just don't see anything except for the Astoria Boulevard station and the people standing on it.
There's two (looks to be) blue locomotives, Conrail perhaps, kinda short, so maybe GP-40's? on the bridge viaduct directly over the leftmost person on the platform.
I thought that those were the tops of buildings.
The third "car" does look like a building. But as you follow along to the right, the freight cars begin to appear under the wire, over the top of the station canopies.
Todd didn't plan this shot, otherwise he would have gone north to Ditmars Bvd., right below the bridge. The freight appeared while he was waiting at the "10" marker on the Manhattan-bound platform, ready to grab the railfan window for the ride thru the 60th st. tunnel! Great shot, Todd!
Thanks, Bill, and you are right on all counts. In fact, I had to scramble to get my digicam out of my bag and rush to take the picture, because the R-32 was on its way into the station. Unfortunately, there was trackwork on the downhill side of the 60th street tunnel, so it was "toot-toot (slow roll) toot-toot (slow roll) toot-toot..." all the way.
I thought that Todd was being funny -- but now realize that waaaaay in the background near the horizon is a train of (I would guess) frieght equipment.
Obviously, it wasn't the best of shots to use as an example, but it is visible if you look good enough.
Doug aka BMTman
Hell Gate Bridge was an extremely busy freight line. When I went to my high school's football games at Randall's Island Stadium during the 1950-1956 period, I always sat up high enough in the stadium's bowl to see the Hell Gate line. Our home side faced eastward. That gave me the 45 yard line and the New York Connecting Railroad in one view. There was a 125 car freight in each direction almost every hour. Seeing those little electric box cabs with their huge jumper cables from cab roof to cab roof was a vital reminder that electric traction really did MU well. Yes, Hell Gate was a continuous freight show - with lots of passenger action on the eastern/southern two tracks as well. No matter how my high school football team fared, there were always those freights moving steadily over the great bridge.
At night, living way up at Fordham Road, I could hear the rumble and see the headlight of northbound freights. There was a short time when the headlight of the freights, rounding the curve, shone right at my bedroom window. The headlight would slowly sink out of sight as the train went downgrade into the southern Bronx.
Freight - day and night - and plenty of it!
I remember back in NH Days, it seemed that there were more freight going across the Hell gate then there was passenger, and most of it going to Bay Ridge, especially after the fire on the Poukeepsie Bridge(spelling) Electric, diesal, and way back as a small child looking out my Great Aunts apt on Ave I and Nostrand that over looked the rail line steam, and the Flatbush and Nostrand Ave Lines on the loop for a short turn around(1950)
Todd Glickman:
I once saw a freight train that had just gone over the Hell Gate bridge from the last station on the Astoria Line in 1993. If I'm not mistaken there are 2 freight trains that go over the Hell Gate Bridge every day.
BMTJeff
In 1962-63 I attended Mater Christi High School in Astoria as a freshman (since the school I was supposed to attend, Christ the King in Middle Village, had not been finished being built in time).
I can remember seeing freight trains with 100+ cars going to/from the Hell Gate Bridge, but I don't recall seeing any passenger trains. Does anyone know if the Penn Central (I assume that the PRR and NYC had merged by then) ran any passenger trains over the Hell Gate Bridge at that time?
By the way, in Sept. '63 Christ the King had been completed and I spent the next 3 years taking Q cars and BMT Standards two stops from my home station (Forest Ave.) to Metropolitan Ave. I can still remember the old wooden platform at Metropolitan.
There was good article about Hell Gate Bridge in the April 1998 issue of Railpace Magazine. There are three tracks on Hell Gate Bridge, two for Amtrak, one for CSX (ex-Conrail).
Chaohwa
Was the bridge always red and white? Lionel in the past and MTH now offer it also in green and cream. I bought one (in Standard Gauge) in green and cream, and then discovered the prototype is red and white.
The current paint was installed in 1995.
Chaohwa
What was the color before?
With the PATCO trains 30 years old and the REDBIRDS pushing 40 I was interested in what was the longest lasting subway model in regular service on any line was. This is from the day the first car came on the property to the day the last car in that class leaves service.
Overall I think it was the old Broad Street cars retired in the 80s with the current Kawasaki cars coming online.
In New York it was Hi-Vs in El service, but the Qs lasted pretty long since they were rebuilt in 1938 from BU cars built in 1906 and lasted until 1969.
Do you have some numbers as to total years served?
Almost 60 (maybe more, I don't know) for the Broad Street cars.
50 for the Hi-V.
Almond Joys
1960-1999 39 Years
R-26
1959-? 41 Years and counting
R-10
1948-1989 41 Years
Market street cars
1907-1960 53 Years
IRT Gibbs cars
1904-1958 54 Years
IRT Deck Roof HI-V
1907-1961 54 Years
BRT/BMT Standards
1914-1969 55 Years
At the moment, this is all I can think of.
How about the Q's? 1904-1969
Besides, as Bob Andersen pointed out, the Qs, of which the center
units (ex-1200s) were 65 years old at retirement, the overall
longetivity champ would be Car "G", built as a steam coach for
NY Elevated RR in 1878 and retired in 1955. However, it spent
most of those years as a work car so this answer may be disqualified.
P.S. Car G is in the collection of the Shore Line Trolley Museum and
is currently being displayed, through 2003, at the New York Transit
Museum at Court Street station.
The issue of longevity is critical for those of use who follow transit economic and fiscal issues.
First, there is the massive debt Pataki and the Vampire State legislature has piled on the MTA, which will probably put another stop to car purchases after 2004 (like the big gap from 1989 to today). Second, car longevity (and maintence cost) is central to the question of whether the subway can break even on an "auto-equivalent basis" since it determines the annual cost of the cars. With purchase costs soaring, a longer amortization period is required.
For the R32, R44-46 and later cars, could 50 years (rather than the prior assumption of 30) be the new average? Hey Train Dude, what would you say if the brass said the R44-46s have to last until 2025-2030 because all the capital money is going to debt service? How about R32s until 2015? Doable?
Let me preface the answer with a few comments;
The issue of longevity where the NYCT is concerned has two faces. The first face was the GOH program. During it's existance, the NYCT paid over $990 million dollars to Morrison Knudsen for the GOH of 9 car classes. (Mine, the R-46 was $390 million alone). At the same time Nab, Buffalo transit and Sumotmi all had smaller contracts for overhauls of other contracts. Clearly, this brought the system back from the brink of dispair and disrepair.
The second face is the SMS program. The SMS program is essentially a perpetual GOH program where instead of a car being overhauled once over a 3 month period and then permited to deteriorate over a 12-15 year period, the car is perpetually rebuilt on a pre-planned schedule. This has eliminated the need for another GOH program.
Now as to your question, let's go class by class;
The R-32s are 36 years old now. Hence their next 12 year (heavy SMS) will bring them to 48 years old. The big questions then become:
Will the car-body structure withstand an additional 12 - 15 years?
Will the cost of a 12 year SMS cycle give you an equitable return on your investment?
Clearly, in the case of the R-32 50 years is attainable.
As for the R-44/R-46, both are due for 12 year SMS between 2004 and 2006. At that time they will be roughly 30 to 32 years old. In both cases, both classes of cars will need 2 heavy SMS cycles to reach 50 years of service. The R-46 is one of the most structurally sound cars in the fleet despite their size. The R-44, on the otherhand, has long been known for it's structural weakness because of the single longitudinal member that it is built on. Perhaps there is some prejudice in my answer but I'd clearly expect to see the R-46 make 50 years (although I've also seen some projections where 300 cars would be pre-maturely retired). As for the R-44, I'd have some misgivings about pushing them 50 years given current standards. Let me qualify that. The NYCT is now moving away from DC motors in favor of AC. AC motors are significantly lighter and smaller. If when these cars do come up for their 12 year SMS, if the HVAC and Air Compressors were replaced with lighter, more efficient units, if the propulsion systems were replaced with AC traction/regenerative braking systems, much of the mechanical stresses can be muted to the extent that the R-46 will easily amke it and the R-44s could be nursed along.
[On a personal note: One key to the success and longevity of any of the NYCT fleets is the individual goals and pride that each shop takes in the cars they put out. If this internal competetiveness and pride is maintained and supported, anything is doable. This is the spirit in my shop and has pretty much become the standard within the Division of Car Equipment with rare exception.]
Hey, do any of the current cars now incorporate duct tape or bondo as a major part of their structure. Do you use any of those 2 miricle substances in your shop or is it just all welding and rivets?
Hey, Train Dude, here's a question you might be able to answer. I am interested to know about any special things involved in working with stainless steel. I see all these little spot welds and stuff and for like 50 years only Budd did stainless so there must be something special about it.
St. Louis did stainless steel as well but incorporated some carbon/LAHT steel elements into their carbodies.
wayne
Jersey Mike, every once in awhile I'll encounter a slant R-40 with some type of heavy-duty duct tape patchwork up by the area where the fiberglass slant ends meet up with the steel (not-stainless) roofs.
Next time you see a train of slant R-40s take a look at the slant end above the door line and you might see what I'm talking about.
Doug aka BMTman
#4224-4225 is one such. So is #4168-9 (IIRC). I believe this is to stop leaks. They had a few like this in Eastern Division (#4412-3; #4406-7) but they have since been properly repaired.
wayne
"Hey, do any of the current cars now incorporate duct tape or bondo as a major part of their structure. Do you use any of those 2 miricle substances in your shop or is it just all welding and rivets? "
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and take the question seriously despite how it sounds. Neither is used on my fleet. However, ther are some fleets where there are roof leaks where either may be an expedient repair. There is an excellent product that is occassionally used to cover the bonnet/car-body seam. It's a stainless steel tape with an epoxy backing. It makes an almost perfect seal in troublesom spots. That might be what some people assume they see as duct tape on some cars.
"Hey, Train Dude, here's a question you might be able to answer. I am interested to know about any special things involved in working with stainless steel. I see all these little spot welds and stuff and for like 50 years only Budd did stainless so there must be something special about it."
Largely it's the fabrication methods that make the difference but there are some new processes on the market. 3M, for example has developed a kit to re-grain stainless steel skin to remove weld spots after repairs and to remove moderately deep etched graffiti.
It was a serious question. Thank you for your responce. Where can I get some of that cool tape?
"you might be able to answer"
I can't read your mind. I don't know what questions you you can answer or not. I want to know if there are different methods for welding and working with stainless than with regular steel. I know that you are a very good/qualified manager, but I have no information regarding your metalurgical knowledge. The welding/fabrication of stailness steel may not even take place in your shop. My basic question is if you are building or repairing a stainless train and a regular steel train what needs to be done differently?
Welding Stainless is tricky. They usually use tig welders or wire feed welders for straight work and as you noted spot welds. I have never seen spot welding of stainless so I cannot comment on the process. I assume they need to do something to keep the O2 off while it is bein welded also.
Joe
That cool tape is in the 3M catalog with a not so cool price. I was told that last time it was roughly $60/roll in quantity.
Just a little point here. To get to a 50 year average, if some car classes will come in under 50 others will have to go over.
If 50 years can be achieved, even if Pataki doesn't bankrupt the TA, the TA should go for it and use the money elsewhere. The only reason not to is technical obsolescence -- ie. CBTC and AC. As you say, perhaps retrofits would be possible.
I'd imagine the TWU would want to show it could keep the old cars going for much less than the annual cost of buying new cars. Maintenance employes TWU members, while new cars are made by others.
As a regular on the D for the weekends, I see the R-68's in question. Now they do go the advertised distance between failures, but there's more to it than that. I freqently see some shoddy workmanship in the cabs. The wall panel which covers the end door lock solenoid/indicator switch assembly is very often hanging open. Or held shut by tape (masking, duct or electrical) all the screws missing. I have been hit by it as it flung open when the motorman applied the brakes and I was unlucky enough to be standing there. Usually looking at a girl through the door.
Then there is the panels which cover the master controller and brake valve. So very often they too are held up with tape. I have seen them lying on the floor as well. The wall panels which surround the window frame frequently have only a fraction of the screws as intended by the manufacturer. And many of them are not the correct type.
The plug for door system diagnostics is almost always torn away or bent out of shape. The floor linoleouem is peeling away and creates a safety hazard for conductors crossing from one side to the other.
I know MDBF is important but the details are too. To me this shows a lack of morale. Either the supervision is poor,(and there's many ways that can happen) the employees just don't care or both. Considering the way the Authority treats it's employees I'm not surprised. I know the TA has no shortage of screws and supervisors.
The problem existed before you got to the Concourse so I am not blaming you. And that crap didn't go on at Jamaica. So what's up?
Of course you are correct. Let's take one issue you raised.
[Then there is the panels which cover the master controller and brake valve.]
A few years back we picked up almost 100 of them from the roadbed north of Sheepshead Bay. 37 were found on top of a cable vault leaving Newkirk Ave northbound. Those fiberglass trim pieces cost approximately $600 each if you can get them. They were not removed by Car inspectors or vandals. Some were damaged tot he poing where they can only be held in place by tape or epoxy. Recently, I presented the RTO superintendent with a set of photos showing a rash of cab floors having been ripped up after the car was inspected. These are acts by disgruntled employees but likely not mine. This went hand-in-hand with a rash of cab-based, racist graffiti and graffiti directed at one TSS.
As for the hardware issue - you are correct. The hardware used onthe 68 is hard to come by and admittedly much is missing. It's more an issue where the inspectors have given up looking for screws. Material shortages are the greatest source of frustration for the hourly, supervisor & manager alike.
I will say this in our own defense. Each year, every shop's maintenance practices are audited. The man who leads the audit team actually ran the Altoona Shops for over 30 years after WWII. There's very little he doesn't know about railroading. In 1994 he soundly criticized the TA for the condition of the R-68 (especially for missing hardware) but each year since he's remarked on the steady improvement.
R68 2520 (Jeumont): Floor is peeling somewhat at the seams
R68 2850 (Alsthom): VERY mushy floor. 2850 and 2851 especially bad.
Note: 2850 bunch is C.I. cars (N).
wayne
Its a sad thing when the employees become bigger vandals than the vandals themselves. 20 years ago you had your share of employees with an axe to grind, but not like what Train Dude has described here. Terrible...
NYCT is no different from most large institutions. Poor screening, poor work conditions and a collective bargaining unit that has become severely factionalized. Results are disgruntled workers. The sad thing is that the vandalism I see doesn't really hurt the public. It only minimally affects the organization. The real impact is its effect on the workers who use the equipment after its been vandalized. They are the one who pay the price for the malicious acts of a few lunatics. However, there are far more of the good ones and that should always give us hope.
WCBS is reporting avery tragic bit of news this afternoon that underscores just what I have said. It seems 2 Virizon employees, attempting to sabotage a company communication line made a slight mis-calculation. Instead of cutting into a fiber-optic cable they cut a 13,000 volt feeder and got the shock of their lives - literally. Both are in critical condition. They also face loss of their job (medical benifits they now need)and criminal charges. Of course, I guess they can always sue the power company for not having a:
WARNING - HIGH VOLTAGE CABLE - DO NOT CUT OR VANDALIZE!!!
lable on the wire.
Of course, my original post is that the NYCT may have its share but so do most large organizations.
Nominations now being accepted for the Darwin awards.
Figure that, telephone company employees can't recognize
the difference between a NYTEL manhole and a ConEd manhole!
This wasn't a manhole - it was the base of a pole out here on LI (Baldwin) - a conduit the vandals thought contained telephone wire actually contained electrical lines. Too bad.
wayne
Thanks for the additional info!
08/18/2000
[This wasn't a manhole - it was the base of a pole out here on LI (Baldwin) - a conduit the vandals thought contained telephone wire actually contained electrical lines. Too bad.]
Now I don't even work for Key Span or Verizon (Bell Atlantic?) and I can tell that was a high voltage power line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, at least NYCT and Verizon don't have the Post Office's problem.
I actually e-mailed Verizon (Latin for "truth" plus "horizon"). and told them that their new name is inappropriate for areas where they are a monopoly on "last mile" services. I suggested "Monop-off" instead. I guess the union and management are battling over the share of monopoly profits. I'd love to have RCN on my block.
Well, if they can't tell a fiber optic line from a Con Ed line, that could explain why phone service is the way it is. It also may answer the question of who were the guys stupid enough to come up with the name Verizon :-)
Some consultant got big bucks for the name. Also looks like they picked the absolute WORST time to complete the merger between Bell Atlantic and GTE. Both union contacts (Bell Atlantic and GTE) expired at the same time, which proves that this merger was not planned until late 1999.
Also the company, having come up with Verizon Wireless for the cell division, opened the door to the unions to demand the right to organize it. Real smart.
As to odd names, same goofballs came up with CSX, USX and who knows what else.
[As to odd names, same goofballs came up with CSX]
CSX was the "temporary" designation of the to-be merged Chessie System and Seaboard System. When confronted at the time with the silliness of the name, a company spokesperson said that it would be used very briefly until a real name was thought up, and that "CSX" would not be painted on the sides of locomotives.
In addition the dufuses who thought up CSX failed to realize that "X" ALWAYS means a private (non-railroad company) car - as in UTLX for Union Tank Lines. So, every car wound up with CSXT for the reporting marks. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
"Temporary" became permanent. It's still CSX.
We got our first Verizon bill last week, complete with two mystery collect calls from Indiana, so the merger hasn't improved service any.
Of course, Verizon isn't any stupider a name than NYNEX, which sounded like some nighttime cold remedy, though at least you could figure out how they came up with the name.
This is why I dropped Verizon for my local fone service...mystery charges and even more mysterious service interruptions.
When you do that, do you have to get a new phone #?
No, you keep the same phone number. I switched my local service to AT&T a while back and my monthly charges dropped over $20 a month.
Peace,
ANDEE
I switched my local service to AT&T a while back and my monthly charges dropped over $20 a month.
As an AT&T employee, allow me to say THANK YOU!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You are welcome
08/18/2000
Wasn't there a big brouha a couple of years ago when changing the name from NYNEX to Bell Atlantic? That didn't last too long!
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyone remember Allegis? The temporary parent for United Airlines?
Speaking of United, its parent is called UAL, that's the official name. At least it's an obvious abbreviation.
Thanks for the answer. I had known of the graffiti in the cabs, but not of the floor situation. It's @**** like that who make it harder for union reps like me. To vandalize the cab appointments is self defeating. It's US who need the window to work or the seat to fold correctly. I had no idea the fiberglass cost so much. If you want, there are around half a dozen of the mouldings that cover the top of the master controller on the Brighton Line. When I saw that I figured it was vandalism but I had no idea of it's extent.
If the T.S.S is the person I think it is, then the graffiti was correct. Although it's an inappropriate forum for those opinions, I did agree with it's sentiments.
Thanks - and if you can give me a rough idea where those trim pirces are, I'll have them picked up over the weekend. I must say that I loved your line about the TA having now shortage of screws & supervisors. We can debate that at another time. Let it suffice to say that the french used odd sized hardware on the R-68s.
As for the TSS who is the object of the graffiti, I can't comment as I don't know him personally. But you are right in that the forum was inappropriate. As for the Sh&%HE24s who vandalize the cabs, it is a very small number, I'm sure.
(Let it suffice to say that the french used odd sized hardware on the R-68s.)
Unless proven otherwise, I'll assume that the contractor lowballed the bid on the trains, then used sole source parts to screw the TA on maintenance. $20 per screw? In public purchasing, it wouldn't surprise me.
Maybe the Pentagon had something to do with it.:-)
>>french used odd sized hardware on the R-68s. <<
metric? I hope the spec writers atr the TA will someday learn to spec things better. I mean, can you imagine building a house with european lightswitches and plugs? BTW, at least three "american" electrical "manufaturers" are or have been using Korean, PRC, Malaysian, Singapore, and or Taiwanese factories, BUT the screws for affixing the parts to the US style boxes are good old NF thread. (my personal dislike for metrics is mostly compatibility--I don't care how you measure it as long as it fits the "embedded base") If Leviton can get the chinese to supply US spec screws, the TA should be able to get the same from its vendors (left handed light bulbs right?)
Sorry for the D-lay, Traindude. Most of the trim rings I have seen are along the Brighton line north of Sheepshead Bay on track two. I think there is one South of the station too. Check the bushes on the East side carefully I'd bet there are more that can't be readily seen from a moving train.
I saw one of the cars with the vandalized cab floors you mentioned. It takes a real angry person to do those things. A complete lack of shame. They make it hard for all of us.
Prett
y good info; the IRT deckroofs were all gone by 1958. Close enough.
Add: IRT-Manhattan MUDC's: oldest of them 1902-55;
BMT Q's l903 and 1907 thru 1969.
SOME of the IND R4's survived until 1976; built 1932-33.
If you want to stretch to the suburbs: Lackawanna MU's 1931-1985.
The oldest of the NY Central MU's-1907-1962
BMT AB's: the 1914 cars as a group did not survive until 1969, the oldest of that class in 1969 were the 1917 group. However the 1914, non rebuilt types did last until about 1960.
BMT 1300 BU's 1905-1958.
It's late, I may have missed a few. Good night.
How about Sydney, Australia.
First single-deck electric cars on the system from March, 1926 and 800 in use by 1932.
Last of these cars were withdrawn in 1992, although many were upgraded during their lives. Several have been preserved.
The Sydney cars would certainly be contenders, but it depends on how you interpret the term "model". Apart from the original 1921 wooden "Bradfields, there were 3 distinct types of car, each with its own semi-oficial nickname: the 1926 "Standards", the 1940 "Tullochs" (the builder's name) and the 1955 "Sputniks". These were similar in overall dimension and appearance, but there were important differences, particularly in seating arangements and in technical improvements. I'd be surprised if there were any of the original Standards still operating in 1992, but there were certainly cars still in service as late as 1983.
BTW, one publication I have describes the Bradfields as being based on early NY subway designs. There is no elaboration, but given the dates and the dimensions (and to a lesser degree the appearance) this was presumably the BMT Standards.
Finally rode the R142, on the #6, from Brookly Bridge to 125th.
A question:
RE: the electronic map above the windows - how does it change routes? If the car I was on goes to the #4, for example, how is a new map put there? A good map - especially good feature is the movable light that shows where you are - good assistance for hearing-impaired individuals.
Generally nice car - quiet inside compared to earlier models, and intelligible announcements (albeit automatic, not a human voice).
If the train is temporarily rerouted, or going to make a few trips on a route the map is incapable of showing, a string of red leds will lite up the words: Train Rerouted, Map not in Use (this is implemented very easily, to ovveride the maps even if the train is on route, but with the wrong maps). The actual map is just a card, which covers a white box with leds in it. It can be changed in the same manner as an ad. BTW: Anyone notice why the #2 maps have the circles covered with white while the #6 ones have clear circles / arrows? The clear ones look better and brighter, you can't even see the direction arrow on the #2.
The R142 doesn't run on the 6 Line. The R142A does. The announcements are human voices. They were recorded professionally. They just play automatically.
That's the...
running on...
's
Questions & Answers.
Andy:
My best guess is that the map might work like an advanced Luminator sign or might even work like a CRT display but I'm not exactly sure.
I'm glad that you gave the car a favorable review and I'm looking forward towarda riding them. They sound like that they'll be a big improvment over the old Redbird's which have worked the IRT line for many years.
BMTJeff
A better map would have all IRT lines on it.
Click here, then click on the first item on the list to see it.
The Coney Island shops and yards are zoned C8, which means that they are one of the few places in Brooklyn where someone could build a large store as-of-right without political payoffs, years of lawsuits, etc.
Does the TA have more land than it needs there? It could pick up a few dollars and do southern Brooklyn a service by selling some off. And how about plans to incoroporate commercial space into the new Stillwell Terminal? The terminal is actually zoned residential (figure that one out), but they could lie and say the existing building is a use group 18 rail yard, then turn part of it into almost any commercial use.
I'm not sure where you are going with this. Coney island yard and to a lesser extent 36th St yard have significant areas on empty space. Unfortunately most of this underutilized space is not on the periphery of the yard but between various sets of track, not safely or easily accessed. One such area is between two sets of tracks in Stillwell yd between the regular lay-up tracks and the staging area for the work trains.
I'm not sure that this is where you are leading but if you are looking for a means of generating revenue using TA land, perhaps the example of Pitkin Yd should be looked at. It could be entirely feasible for, say, Walmart, Home Depot and Shoprite to build a mega-store above City yard with access from Stillwell Avenue and McDonald Ave. The MTA realestate people could realize significant revenue for use of the air rights over the yard.
[I'm not sure that this is where you are leading but if you are looking for a means of generating revenue using TA land, perhaps the example of Pitkin Yd should be looked at. It could be entirely
feasible for, say, Walmart, Home Depot and Shoprite to build a mega-store above City yard with access from Stillwell Avenue and McDonald Ave. The MTA realestate people could realize significant revenue for use of the air rights over the yard.]
Wal-Mart? The Barons of Bentonville would sooner sell their children to human-organ traders than build a store in Brooklyn. They've figured out that urban stores aren't worth the hassle - and before dismissing this as redneck prejudice, take note of the fact that Wal-Mart is arguably the most successful retailer in history. They know what they're talking about.
Considering the Southern roots of Wal-mart you are likely correct. transit issues aside, is this racism and does success mitigate it?
Actually, it's more anti-unionism than anything else -- Wal-Mart moved into parts of upstate New York about a decade ago, so the fact they are southern-based has become less and less of an issue.
What they are afraid of is a store in New York would quickly fall victim to unionization, and that could spread throughout the system, forcing either prices to be raised or profit margins to be cut (and it's one of the big advantages Wal-Mart has had over Michigan-based K-Mart in their battles the past 20 years).
Earlier this year, the company saw the possibility that meat cutters were going to unionize in some of their Supercenter stores and solved that problem by annoucing they were going to eliminate the meat cutters and buy their meat from an outside company instead. In NYC, it wouldn't be only the meat department in the supermarket section that would be ripe for a unior vote, and Wal-Mart doesn't want the hassle.
>>> They've figured out that urban stores aren't worth the hassle <<<
Peter;
For a Wal-mart store to be profitable, the land must be CHEAP. Unfortunately urban land is never cheap. As with any business they have to cover the cost of the goods sold, the wages of the employees and cost of rent for the location.
The Wal-mart business model calls for a large store with much free parking. They want shoppers to have a car available to carry large quantities of merchandise home with them. It is not "hassle" that keeps Wal-mart out of urban areas, but lack of profit.
Tom
Wally World targeted rural america because of the lack of competition. They did not have Sears and K-Mart to deal with, just small town Main Street Merchants which they were more than willing to kill to turn a buck.
Wallmart is not an asset to any town or city.
Acutally, in the 1980s Wal-Mart went directly for the throat of K-Mart, setting up stores litterally across the street from an existing K-Mart in many places. Most of the time, K-Mart either had to upgrade the stores (K-Marts were notorious for becoming shabby after about five years or so of operations) or simply close up shop, and their stock is still in the doldrums today.
Wal-Mart does tend to build in marginally developed or underdeveloped areas, and nowadays have enough clout so that other businness will then locate around them to develop the locations. But Wal-Mart will pay the price for prime land in more developed locations, if they can justify the sales per square/foot for building one of their 150,000- to 200,000-square foot Supercenters on that site.
>>> Wal-Mart will pay the price for prime land in more developed locations, if they can justify the sales per square/foot for building one of their 150,000- to 200,000-square foot Supercenters on that site <<<
Where have they done that? As pointed out earlier by George Foelschow, Wal-mart is virtually non-existent in metropolitan Los Angeles. For the fun of it I went to the Wal-mart web site (www.walmart.com) to see where the stores in the L.A. area were. I used the 90012 area code, which is the downtown civic center and located six stores within 20 miles and 22 stores within 50 miles. The four biggest cities (Los Angeles, Long Beach, Santa Monica, and Torrance) in the county had no stores. The stores within 20 miles of downtown Los Angeles are in Paramount, Duarte, Panorama City, Cerritos, City Of Industry, and Covina. All are lower rent areas east of Los Angeles except Panorama City which is low rent for the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles.
Tom
[re no urban Wally Worlds]
[For a Wal-mart store to be profitable, the land must be CHEAP. Unfortunately urban land is never cheap. As with any business they have to cover the cost of the goods sold, the wages of the employees and cost of rent for the location.
The Wal-mart business model calls for a large store with much free parking. They want shoppers to have a car available to carry large quantities of merchandise home with them. It is not "hassle" that keeps Wal-mart out of urban areas, but lack of profit.]
I know what you mean about store size and parking, but keep in mind that other big-box retailers - think Target, K-Mart, Home Depot and Costco - are willing to open urban stores. They are willing to "tweak" their usual _modus operandi_ to adapt as necessary to the transit-using urban market. Wal*Mart (yes, it's an asterisk, not a dash) will not. It's the typical rural/suburban model, or nothing. While I suppose we can't entirely dismiss the prejudice factor, it's my belief that Wal*Mart management - once again, the smartest in the business - has decided that urban stores just aren't worth the trouble. From what I have heard, other nationwide big-box retailers find their NYC stores about run-of-the-mill when it comes to profitability. Per-store sales are high, often among the highest in the country, but expenses are extremely high too. Wal*Mart management probably has decided that the risks of NYC just aren't worth the middling rates of return. As pointed out elsewhere, management fears unionization, and NYC has taken over from the Midwest as Ground Zero for union organizing. And let's not forget the endless political hassles that a NYC store would face. Bottom line, management has decided that they won't risk going into NYC unless the potential returns are really high, which they aren't.
Toys 'r' Us has prices that are approximately 5% higher in their Manhattan stores. I worked for them 2 x-mases ago, and people would actually buy stuff in the 'cheaper' stores, and return them (recieptless, of course) in Manhattan. We got a memo on this at the service desk, and it was stuck right next to the one about the phony money...
-Hank
[Toys 'r' Us has prices that are approximately 5% higher in their Manhattan stores. I worked for them 2 x-mases ago, and people would actually buy stuff in the 'cheaper' stores, and return them recieptless, of course) in Manhattan. We got a memo on this at the service desk, and it was stuck right next to the one about the phony money...]
Phony money? You mean people actually would counterfeit Geoffrey Dollars? How ghastly ...
Absolutely....More anti-counterfeiting stuff built into those than the new US Currency. Holograms, color-shifts, microprinting, invisible threads...
-Hank
Off-topic: I live in the center of Los Angeles, a city of 3 and a half or so million souls. Something is advertised in the Sunday Los Angeles Times, but I have to travel to a "suburb" to buy it. The Barons of Bentonville are so smart; maybe someone will recognize the millions in "inner cities" are cater to them, a vast underserved market. The situation in Brooklyn and Los Angeles are analogous.
Correction: I meant to say "is analogous".
(The Barons of Bentonville are so smart; maybe someone will
recognize the millions in "inner cities" are cater to them, a vast underserved market. The situation in Brooklyn and Los Angeles
are analogous.)
They already have recognized and capitalized on an under-served market -- rural America. You can't expect two blinding flashes of the obvious from the same company. I've been hoping that a Black or Latino Sam Walton will come along for the inner city. UN-fortunately, the cities have political controls to prevent such people from succeeding. Maybe such an company will arise in Houston, then move here when it has enough money to hire the right lawyers and pay everyone off.
Big box retailers have been trying to move into urban markets for years, but have met fierce resistance from local merchants who see that they cannot compete with them due to the efficiencies and discounts of volume buying that large chains can achieve. Localities, expecially NYC, have used their zoning and regulatory approval procedures to keep the national chains out, and prices and rents in the City higher than they might otherwise be. Most recently, Costco (an excellent retailer) decided not to fight NYC regulation to build a store on land it owned on the west side. It's a pity for consumers in NYC and elsewhere.
Maybe I'm not as knowledgeable about the demography of Brooklyn as I could be, but it doesn't seem any more "urban"(and I think we all know what that really means) than South Philadelphia which has quite a large Wal-Mart. Granted it is on the other side of Delaware Avenue(a road I would liken to Ocean Parkway) from the residential areas, it still sits in an urban zone.
>>> [Brooklyn] doesn't seem any more "urban"(and I think we all know what that really means) than South Philadelphia which has quite a large Wal-Mart <<<
I'm sorry but I do not know what "urban" really means, but there are several things to consider. First and foremost, is a comparison of the cost of the land in South Philadelphia and Brooklyn. Second is the road access to the sites, and third is how many potential customers with money to spend will arrive by car. If Brooklyn does not compare favorably to South Philadelphia, in those areas, it does not matter what "urban" means.
Tom
[Brooklyn] doesn't seem any more "urban"(and I think we all know what that really means) than South Philadelphia which has quite a large Wal-Mart
I'm sorry but I do not know what "urban" really means, but there are several things to consider. First and foremost, is a comparison of the cost of the land in South Philadelphia and Brooklyn. Second is
the road access to the sites, and third is how many potential customers with money to spend will arrive by car. If Brooklyn does not compare favorably to South Philadelphia, in those areas, it does
not matter what "urban" means.
"Urban" in this context quite obviously was meant to mean "large minority population." That's probably not a significant factor in Wal*Mart's store-location decisions. To use a creaky old cliche, the only color they're concerned about is green.
Those three factors you cited undoubtedly are significant. It's a reasonably safe assumption that Brooklyn does not compare well to South Philadephia with regard to any of them. Add in Wal*Mart's union fears - no city is a hotbed of pro-union sentiment like NYC - and the city's rather blatant bias against large stores, and it would be almost incomprehensible if Wal*Mart did build there.
What about air-rights over Coney Island yard itself?
Couldn't it be decked over and buildings/stores erected, ala the housing project over the IND Livonia Yard?
Doug aka BMTman
Excuse me but isn't that what i suggested? Pitkin Yard is the yard that has Linden Towers over it, not Livonia which is above street level.
Pardon my error there.
I get those ENY yards confused.
Doug aka BMTman
The problem with the decking idea is that it is expensive. The houses over the Pitkin Yard were built with government money, so cost was not an issue. But the goal here is to have the MTA take money out, not to have the City put money in.
Still, you have a wide street, you are fairly close to highway exits, and you have transit access. The question will be whether it can be oounted as "as-of-right" -- ie not requiring poltical approval. The zoning, C8, would allow just about anything, but a special permit is required to build in a railroad right of way. That's how the MTA's deal over the 60th Street ROW was killed.
The question is whether a
Coney Island Yard is a historical landmark. It has great meaning for all train buffs. I would personally tie myself to a track before I let anyone touch it. Haven't the politicians raped the BMT enough? Check out the old map of the Eastern Division on my site. Have a barf bag and a tissue ready. What a sin. Go to my site below and find the link to the map.
Train Buff Headquarters
Yes, but not an officially recognized landmark, ala GCT and City Hall. If it comes down to the city and MTA making some bucks by selling the air rights over the yard, I'm all for it.
-Hank
Heck, the Jamaica Yard is zoned C8, allowing just about any commercial use. A big shopping/entertainment/office complex would be nice, but expect a hell of a fight from the NIMBY crowd before anything would be allowed on top of it -- even if it had (as would be perfectly possible) direct highway access and it's own subway terminal below.
A shopping center parking lot at that location, with a transit stop below, would also be great for Park-N-Ride on weekdays, when the retail and entertainment space was less heavily used. But heck this is NYC.
A shopping center at Jamaica (aka Kew Loop) yard? Are you crazy?
That's the Kew Gardens Interchange....ground zero for traffic
nightmares every day. It's also a protected wetlands area.
Why does NYC need more megacomplexes where you need a light rail
system just to get from your parking spot to the store?
(Why does NYC need more megacomplexes where you need a light rail
system just to get from your parking spot to the store?)
Because we have 250,000+ adults on welfare and 330,000+ on SSI, without employment. Meanwhile, New Yorkers drive out to the suburbs and spend billions. They drive through the Kew Gardens Interchange on the way to Roosevelt Field. That's especially true of Queens, where people pride themselves on not-spending a dime in NYC.
As an alternative, we could also move all the poor people out to the suburbs where all the low-skill retail and service jobs are, but the suburbs aren't interested. To the extent that the poor people work there, they want them out by nightfall, preferably on buses so they don't add to traffic, preferably buses paid for by New York City. The suburbs are happy to keep the taxes from the commercial development, since their children require decent schools, and ours presumably do not.
Can you say Soweto?
Yes, some New Yorkers will choose to crawl through traffic to
get to a suburban mall. Others prefer to shop at local businesses
that they can walk to or take the train to. Open a few megaplexes
and the local businesses go out of business, and then we all have
the privilege of waiting in long lines to purchase low-quality
goods from low-quality employees. No thanks. I've been to
the Manhattan KMart and the College Point Home Depot, and while
I sometimes appreciate the convenience and one-stop-shopping aspect,
it is almost always overshadowed by frustration in finding what I
want quickly and getting through the checkout line.
(Yes, some New Yorkers will choose to crawl through traffic to
get to a suburban mall. Others prefer to shop at local businesses
that they can walk to or take the train to.)
Most people do both. Affluent young people and the old tend to shop exclusively at local stores. Middle income families value the convenience of all-in-one shopping and low prices for plain old non-special stuff. I never shopped at large chain stores until we had kids, and much of what I buy there is related to the phase of life.
As for the carless poor, they have no choice. So urban markets bring in goods from the suburbs after they have reached their expiration date and sell them for high prices. Go to an Associated in a poor neighborhood, and you will be buying spoiled milk.
I always make a point of shopping in the city. It is my observation that many of those who decry tasteless "mega-stores" and see them as a threat (rather than a compliment) to the unique character in the city spend much of their money in the suburbs. Moreover, if we don't get more commercial space, rising rents will price out "unique" stores that can't pump up the volume. Such stores will then all be in the suburbs, where an over-supply of space will lead to low retail rents.
[As for the carless poor, they have no choice. So urban markets bring in goods from the suburbs after they have reached their expiration date and sell them for high prices. Go to an Associated in a poor neighborhood, and you will be buying spoiled milk.]
Now wait a minute ... I always check the expiration dates when I buy milk at the supermarket (I get it for the family - personally, I'd sooner drink Clorox). At any rate, on at least some of the brands, there are two last-sale dates. There's the regular date, and the NYC date, which is *earlier* than the regular date. NYC seems to be more stringent about sale dates.
(NYC seems to be more stringent about sale dates. )
Remember the NYC motto: lots of stringent rules, no enforcement (or disciminatory enforcement against the powerless). Virtually every business breaks virtually ever rule. In some cases they are breaking rules that aren't there elsewhere, and shouldn't be there. In other cases, they are doing things that would not be allowed elsewhere.
I've always wanted to know what "Sigilum Civitatis Novi Eboraci" meant, but I couldn't find out. Thanks for enlightening me! :-)
I would be inclined to say there is no such thing as "as of right" in New York City. Any large commercial use of part of C.I. Yard would require access, generate traffic, etc., and every pressure group would be out in force to oppose it.
(I would be inclined to say there is no such thing as "as of right" in New York City.)
Actually, there is more as-of-right in New York City than just about anyplace else in the United States. It accounts for just about everything that gets built, precisely because of all the pressure groups, bribe takers, etc. going after just about anything that isn't as-of-right. You can build larger buildings on a given piece of land, with more choice of sites, in NYC than elsewhere. Donald Trump's 90 story tower was as-of-right. So was the Home Depot that Forest Hills couldn't stop. Virtually nothing comes through City Planning. Thank God.
The only problem -- in 1961 they didn't zone enough land "commercial" in the outer boroughs. No problem, they thought, they zoned lots of land "manufacturing," and all commercial uses were allowed in maufacturing zones. But then in 1974, the Einsteins in power (the same folks who brought near municipal bankruptcy) decided that the reason manufacturing was leaving the city was that other commercial activities were booming -- stop the growth and manufacturing would be preserved. This created a franchise for existing commercial businesses that they have defended ever since. A related problem is City-owned land, whose sale is never as-of-right, and always brings out folks hoping to grab it for themselves.
So large or even medium scale commercial activity outside Manhattan (except for some screwy exceptions) is the real non as-of-right. Hence the interest in the rail yards. Unfortunately, using rail right of way air rights is never as-of-right.
Does anyone have a collection of vintage "inside the train car"
stickers? I thought there was a time when there were two separate emergency evacuation stickers used...one in English, one in Spanish.
Now, some people are saying that those were always combined in one
sticker. I moved to NYC in 1974, they would have been left over
in the cars then, or added after.
Does anyone from that dept of the T.A. remember?
I have an "Emergency Evacuation Procedure" sticker hanging in my office that is in both English and Spanish. It has as its backdrop a drawing of a truncated R-46 (2 side doors, one window).
I don't think there were Spanish-only stickers of any kind.
--Mark
How about them quinti-lingual
"South Ferry Passengers must ride in
the first FIVE cars to be able to get
off at South Ferry" cards on the 1/9?
La via del tren subterreneo es peligrosa...
I can remember this from 30 years ago. And I don't speak a word of spanish.
>>La via del tren subterreneo es peligrosa...
..Someone's been reading Marian Swerdlow's book!!!
Speaking of Marian Swerdlow, She was my History teacher at FDR high school three years ago.
A while ago, these stickers were being offered on the MTA material Sales website. You can check at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/memsales.htm
I don't think that "memorabilia" page has changed since it went up a few months ago. And I wouldn't think much of those stickers are selling given that they're subject to a "minimum $50 processing fee".
--Mark
>There are new R142a's in the 180/unionport Yard .They are so new that the 3rd shoe's are not even on! (They are 7231-7240)
IM GOING BACK to get Pic's on tuesday.. Also I saw 6311-6316 in the Yard also next to a R62a But the Funny thing is that there was a Full ten car's in the barn also.....
>Did they Place one more 142a on the 6 yet?
>>And did the 142 on the 2 line start running yet?
Later for now ....RRR
Source: NY Daily News Archives
[Looking Back At Decade of Woes]
Here's a look at notable subway accidents over the last decade:
April 12, 2000: The first four cars of a packed No. 5 Lexington Ave. express subway train derail in a shower of sparks at the end of rush hour, stranding nearly 2,000 commuters for hours. There are nine minor injuries.
July 14, 1997: The last three cars of a Flatbush-bound No. 2 train jump the tracks after train pulls out of the President St. station in Brooklyn. Three people suffer minor injuries.
July 3, 1997: Fourteen passengers are injured when an eight-car southbound A train with 100 people aboard derails in Harlem, knocking out four tunnel support beams.
Aug. 23, 1995: Nineteen passengers are injured when a slow-moving No. 6 train rolls past two red lights and smacks into another southbound train in the Brooklyn Bridge station.
June 5, 1995: A motorman is killed and 54 people are injured when one train slams into another on the Williamsburg Bridge.
Feb. 9, 1995: Seven people are injured when two trains collide above a Brooklyn street.
Dec. 21, 1994: Forty-five people are hurt when a firebomb explodes on a train in lower Manhattan.
Aug. 15, 1994: Eleven people are hurt and more than 1,000 are evacuated from a subway tunnel when a train derails in Brooklyn.
Oct. 7, 1993: Forty-five people are injured when one train rear-ends another in a Brooklyn station.
Aug. 28, 1991: Five people are killed and 200 are hurt when a drunken motorman crashes a train beneath Union Square.
Dec. 28, 1990: Two people are killed and 188 are hurt when an electrical malfunction causes a fire in a Brooklyn tunnel.
They forgot two things:
a) the recent accident at De Kalb Avenue (I forget the date)
b) the Nov.20 1997 collision between the "G" and "R" train n.of Steinway Street.
wayne
Just to see this for myself i caught the los angeles BLUE LINE north to the corparate welfare taxpayer paid plus a 4 million dollar bonus STAPELS LUXURY center ( also home to lakers nba basketball ) etc..
paid to the Demoncratic coonvention so they can have luxry parties at the expense of the working poor including those forced to pay for this madness ( philadelphia republicans too )
& especially those who suffer the most the working poor who live next to & near the los angeles pico station BLUE LINE & stapels center !!
As they came out of the convention the demoncrats filed into thier luxry lemos & charter buses & they they all drove off and away & dissapeared into the night !!
THE BLUE LINE PICO STATION WAS IGNORED & UNUSED !! ( except for a few working poor who were trying to struggle to and from work )
Absolutely no demoncratic coonventioners at all !!
Just like recently after the lakers victory & post riot !!
the same thing again the blue line not used or too far away something is wrong here !! the shadow convention & homeless convention was more exciting to witness in person !!
( sorry if any mistakes in my word procesing i am in a hurry )
thankz salaamallah.....
Maybe it's time THE ROCK strolled into
the DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION and layeth
the smacketh-down....
On this morning's 11:30 A.M. ABC TV news in Los Angeles, there was a story about the effect of the DNC on traffic in downtown Los Angeles. They were anticipating gridlock with the conventioneers and protestors filling the streets. In fact, the streets were virtually deserted because so many businesses and government offices shut down during the convention to prevent overcrowding.
They did an interview with a morning commuter on a station platform of the Red Line subway, who indicated he usually drove but took the train today to avoid traffic. I do not know what time the interview was conducted or in which station, but what was shocking to me was that the station was almost empty, and a train that pulled into the station in the background had only a few passengers on board. Rush hour in downtown NYC was never like this.
Tom
thank you very much sir !! you made my point the BLUE line & the RED line 7th & metro center WAS NOT USED AT ALL instead the welthy rich COONVENTIONEERS helped themselves to private lemos & luxury motor coaches bumper to bumper gridlock traffic & you have this PICO BLUE line station there with a train ready-to-go & nothing happens there except busines as usual !! I bet they didnt use the subway & rail systems in philadelphia when the dunbo elephants had thier swildle there as well thankz salaamallah
Most Conventions in any city do not use local transit, no matter where. except maybe for NYC, most use Limos, cabs, and busses. In Downtown LA there are only 3 half decent Hotels, and I would not use the blue line to get from the Biltmore, Boni, and Hilton to get to the Convention, I could be there faster by taxie, and if there are 2 or more of using the cb, it would be just about the same fare.
what was the lakers fans excuse too ?? & i mean every game & every event at the stapels center are they ""coonventioneers"" too ??
Because most lakers fans live nowhere near the blue line.
And if one is able to afford playoff tickets, one is not likely to take mass transit.
You mean most Laker fans who could afford to go to a game. 'Cheep Seats' are $21/game, and usually sold out. According to my cousin (who lives there, but is a Knicks fan) you have to pay $70-$120 for rafter seats.
-Hank
>>> what was the lakers fans excuse too?? <<<
Salaam;
You make it sound like Los Angelinos have some duty to ride the Blue Line. Lets face it, Los Angeles is an automobile dependent city. Those who regularly use the Blue Line, or other rail lines in L.A. (Except long distance Metrolink commuters) are those who do not have automobiles because they cannot afford to buy one. These people are not the ones paying the big bucks to see Laker games. Also, if attending a game in a group of four, it would be cheaper to drive and pay for the parking than take the Blue Line and pay for four round trip tickets.
Tom
The 'How to get there' page for the Staples Center doesn't acknowledge the exisitence of mass transit nearby. They're at the intersection of the 10 and 110 freeways.
-Hank
what was the lakers fans excuse too ?? & i mean every game & every event at the stapels center are they ""coonventioneers"" too ??
href="http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
new photos just developed from nyc thankz salaam allah
In Philadelphia, SEPTA had special week passes available and ran extra trains and chartered busses to all the events. In other words, when decent public transit was available, it was used a lot. (By the way, must everything you write be an angry political complaint?)
You really didn't expect politicians to lower themselves and take mass transit, did you? This is one of the major problems in the country: The people that make the laws are out of touch with the reality of the common people. I've always thought a good example of this was the reserved on street parking that judges in NYC enjoy. We take mass transit and walk or park on the street or in a lot and walk a few blocks to our destination. Judges park in a "No Parking Anytime/ except for Judges" zone which allows them to virtually park right outside the court building entrances. These are the same people, of course, who push the revolving door of the justice system. Vote "No" for president.
Most Judges take a big Pay Cut when they go from the Private Sector to Public Office, The counties have to give them some perks, such as special parking or limos.
[Most Judges take a big Pay Cut when they go from the Private Sector to Public Office, The counties have to give them some perks, such as special parking or limos.]
I worked in a courthouse in Connecticut for a couple of years in the early 1990's. The parking area right behind the building was reserved for judges. It was quite a source of amusement to look at the judges' parking area after lunch on a Friday ... you almost expected to see tumbleweeds blowing by, it was so barren :-)
BTW, in Connecticut at least, judges most commonly are appointed from the ranks of prosecutors, sometimes public defenders or other government attorneys, and hence usually get a substantial pay increase upon taking office.
Judges get their own spaces because they absolutely need to be there with no uncertainty involved. When I was called to be a juror, I had my own parking area to park in too, because jurors absolutely had to be there to carry out the law.
Most convention delegates are the "little people" who pay their own way to participate in a political event for their organization. They do not ride in limos or stay in the Presidential Suite of hotels.
There is no such thing as being there with no uncertainty. If they are parking, they were driving, and if they were driving the problem of traffic is ever-present.
100% agreement with you!!....... thankz ....salaam allah
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
5 sets of pics to look at ....
"corparate welfare taxpayer paid plus a 4 million dollar bonus STAPELS LUXURY center "
Hate to point this out (ok, I love to prove people wrong), but the Staples Center arena was paid for by the owners of the Lakers and Kings (the Clippers rent). The convention center portion was funded by the city and county of Los Angeles, as well as by the state of California. Every city the size of LA should have a public convention center, as they draw out-of-town business peope who pay exhorbitant hotel taxes.
-Hank
Hank;
The "4 million dollar bonus" that Salaam is referring to is the amount that was appropriated by the Los Angeles City Council when the DNC came asking for more money after all the contracts had been signed, and the convention was already locked into coming to Los Angeles.
Many people, myself included, thought this was not a proper expenditure of public funds, since nothing was going to be gained by the expenditure, and this amounted to a giveaway of public funds to a political party so they could put on a week long political advertisement.
The Staples Center and the Convention Center are next to each other, but not integrated. The DNC is not in the Convention Center at all.
Tom
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
old tom you are right om the money !! said it better than i could listem to him folks !!
( STOP MAKING SENSE ) !!
WRONG HANK !!
the so called "stapels center" was paid for by CORPORATE WELFARE like ""giants stadium"" in san francisco !!
the DEMONCRATIC COONVENTION was also paid for by the residents who are locked up in thier apartments & the closed up & locked of BOARDED UP business & hotels all downtown LOST ANGELES !!
we paid for the stapels luxury arena that no ordinary lost angeles county resident can afford to come near to ..
Not to mention the 4 four MILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT to finance the welthy rich DEMONCRATS like the same mistake philadelphia did with those slopply elephants the republicians !!
& the blue line pico station has been abandoned by the COONVENTIONEERS !!
( sorry for the large caps )
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications thankz salam allah
>>> DEMONCRATIC COONVENTION <<<
Salaam;
I certainly hope this is only your usual atrocious spelling, and not the despicable racial slur it appears to be.
Tom
What kind of racial slur could it be?
to the two last posts the proper way to spell demonctatic convention
is ....DEMONCRATIC COONVENTION ..!! & the ""dumbo the elephant in philadelphia aprox.
two weks ago !!
so much for the pico blue line station unused !!
'Corporate Welfare' did NOT, repeat, NOT pay for Pac Bell Park. It has been cited in several EXTREMELY reliable sources as paid for privately. The city actually MADE MONEY (albiet, not much), because the Giants had to BUY CITY LAND on which they built the park. Pac Bell Park has been held up time and again by the media and politicians as the way a ballpark SHOULD be financed and built. You want to talk corporate welfare, look at the Boston Red Sox. The city is proposed to pay several hundred million to condemn land and build a parking garage, and the team is paying only for the stadium.
Pac Bell is also a model of how transit should be used to get to the stadium (after the initial starup problems, of course)
-Hank
sorry but on several talk radio stations KGO news KCBS they told the truth about the public co-operate welfare taxpayer funded
"" GIANTS STADIUM"" & the myth about private funding was just that a big HOAX
I am also "right on the money" about the STAPELED CENTRAL & how we got ""hoodwinked" ""swindled"" & "flim flammed"" here in los angeles
with the 4 four million dollar taxpayer funded DEMONCRATIC-COONVENTION !!
as for your posts on the east coast * dont believe the hype * & none of what they say !! ( GOOD LUCK ) @ smile thankz salaam allah
I don't argue with my dad, for the same reason I'm not going to argue with you:
You listen to talk radio and take it as gospel.
If your head is so empty that you can't look at facts provided by multiple independant verifiable sources, you're just the kind of gullible fool the republicans claim the Clinton administration for creating. Do me and the rest of society with common sense (and decent spelling and grammar skills) a favor, and don't vote this year.
-Hank
I don't argue with my dad, for the same reason I'm not going to argue with you:
You listen to talk radio and take it as gospel.
If there's one information source that's less reliable than the Internet, it's talk radio!
The last time I happened to tune to a talk radio station, my radio was too close to the right edge of the table and fell off!!! :-)
dont worry about my spelling etc... as long as you understand etc...
( & usually get angry & mad )
I agree with you that RIGHT WING talk radio always gets it wrong except when it comes to getting it right as to the MYTH OF PRIVATE FUNDING on sports stadiums & public auditoriums arenas domes colisuems you name it !!
Hank its is always the 6 dollar an hour laborer who gets taxed into homelessness paying for the rich Corporate Welfare & Spoots elite !!
( this includes the lower middle class also )
However the right wing radios falling off of tables do get it right on THE MYTH OF PRIVATE FUNDING ON SPORTS & OTHER STADIUMS !!!
I do not mind my money going to the pasadena blue line improving public transit nationwide etc.... if it is done right ok hank ?
Was that your excellent redbirds photos at times square station ?
What king of a camera did you use ?? thankz salaamallah
Where did you see them? I've got so many pics online, I lose track of where stuff is.
-Hank
So hardly anyone in LA uses the station next to the convention center for going to conventions. That sucks. In Atlnata, the Omni/Dome/GWCC station is always packed during a basketball, hockey game or convention. And there are a lot of all three of them.
Greetings, all...
As I have alluded to here once already, I'm finding it damn near impossible to find a place to live in Boston for September 1st. Facing the prospect of finding myself without a place to live, I'm forced to consider some rather drastic actions. First, a little background:
Back in Chicago, I had my own large studio apartment in Lincoln Park, half a block away from the lakefront in a reasonably well-maintained building in a very desireable neighborhood. I was paying $530 a month in rent, a good deal for that particular neighborhood but about average for Chicago in general. And I didn't have to jump through any hoops, kiss anybody's ass, or otherwise compete with 50 other people to get it.
Here in Boston, I'm paying $650 a month for a single bedroom in a filthy, roach-infested apartment building in Brookline where the landlord has performed no maintenance whatsoever. He's converting the living room into a fifth bedroom and jacking up the rent by $700 this September, so we're all moving out. I still haven't found a new place yet, and prospective roommates act like they're doing me a personal favor by even returning my phone call. And if you have the slightest blemish on your credit report, forget about it. (Apparently all 3 million people in Boston have perfect credit.) Boston has its charm, but no city is worth the hell you have to go through just to find a place to live around here.
Right now I'm in the midst of starting school at the Boston Architectural Center (I'm a transfer student from the University of Illinois at Chicago). I came to the BAC because their program is set up so that students work full-time during the day at architecture firms and take their classes in the evening. It's one of only very few schools of architecture in the US that follow that format, and it allows me to do what I was trying to do unsucessfully for five years in Chicago, that is, go to school and be able to pay the rent at the same time.
Problem is, Boston is so ridiculously overpriced that I'm already making plans to pack my backs and head back home to Chicago. I plan on turning in my two-weeks notice at work on the 25th if I don't have a signed lease in my hand by then. Since Boston apparently wants to become an overpriced yuppie theme park instead of a real city, I sure as hell won't get in their way. I figure it's Boston's loss, not mine. I have friends I can stay with in Chicago until I'm able to find an inexpensive apartment there and get back on my feet again. (With a close-knit community of friends like that in Chicago, I'm amazed that I was even able to bring myself to say goodbye to them in the first place.)
Once I'm in Chicago, I'll probably take some evening classes at the City Colleges and try once again to get admitted into the Illinois Institute of Technology (really my first choice of school, but I didn't get admitted on my first try). If that doesn't work, then I may be willing to try my luck in Philadelphia...
I was just doing a little research on other architecture schools in the US, and it turns out the school of architecture at Drexel University in Philly has a very similar format as the Boston Architectural Center. A few things I'm curious about: How is the cost of living in Philly and how hard is it to get an apartment? What neighborhoods would you reccomend if I wanted to be convenient to Drexel as well as Center City via rapid transit? (I don't have a car and have no desire to get one.) How long does it take to get to NYC from Philly by train and about how much does it cost each way? I'm sure the housing situation can't be nearly as bad as Boston's, and Philly is also much closer to New York (another big plus -- I have many friends in NYC including some people here on SubTalk). I've never been to Philly before, I don't know a thing about the city, and I don't know a single person there. But I've always been a bit curious to check it out, and from what I know about Philly, it seems like a very real, down-to-earth city not unlike my hometown of Chicago.
Any thoughts? (You're welcome to contact me via private e-mail if you wish.) Sorry if I seem to be coming down a bit hard on Boston here, but I'm just about at my wit's end.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Boston, MA
I think the graphic with your message says something; and it's saying it to you: 2500N and 444W is not in Boston, I know. Maybe to ask the question is to answer it.
David,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. It's not just you -- Boston has had a severe housing shortage for decades. It's mostly attributable to the huge student population, and the schools that don't have the space to house them. You might do better looking out in the suburbs; there are many communities on the commuter rail lines that have reasonable living arrangements and rents. And hey -- you'll be able to ride one of the most reliable and lowest priced commuter rail systems in the country.
Way back in the 60s Bean Town didn't have this problem, as this teenager from the sticks was able to find a (very small) room on Marboro Street, just minutes from downtown. Too bad a kid from out of town can't do that today :-(
Mr t__:^)
[And if you have the slightest blemish on your credit report, forget about it. (Apparently all 3 million people in Boston have perfect credit.)]
Interesting you mention credit reports. According to anecdotal evidence I've heard, many landlords in NYC won't consider anyone whose credit score, as shown on his or her credit report, is less than 750. To put things in perspective, the score needed to qualify for a Fannie Mae home mortgage (the standard most lenders use) is only 620. A score of 750 is pretty close to perfect. Most people who always pay their bills on time and avoid excessive debt won't have a chance at coming close to 750.
When I first came to NYC in the 60's all I needed for security was my portable radio ... guess the Good Old Days are more recent then I thought.
Mr t__:^)
I don't know about the housing market here in Philly, but I haven't heard bad things. Philly has a lot of bad neighborhoods that are on the way back so rents would be low. Don't forget the Drexel is right off of the 34th St. station on the MFL so you could live anywhere in Philly and still get to school. If you don't mind living in a s*** hole you could try Camden. Its really improved in the last 2 years and they are turning some of the old industrial complexes into housing units. You should have come on the Aug 5 trip. You could have checked out the housing market as well as transit options.
Amtrak from NYC to Philly will cost about $40 with a student discount.
NJTransit from New York Penn to Trenton cost $14 round trip - off peak (weekend).
The R7 from Trenton to Philly Center City (for ticket purposes this is 30th St, Suburban or Market East Stations) costs $10 round trip. My total round trip cost from NYC Penn to Phil Market East was $24. Students and Seniors may pay less, although it may involve getting a pass. Buy your ticket at the window (slow) or ticket machine (which even takes VISA) in Penn Stn. to *avoid a $3 surcharge* from buying a ticket from the conductor on the train.
The trip took about 2.5 hours one way. If you take the correct train, the connection in Trenton is on an adjacent platform, with about a 12-15 minute layover.
Both NJTransit and SEPTA have the schedule info that you need.
David,
How far out from downtown have you looked? (Just curious.) For instance it didn't strike me as the neighborhoods along the Ashmont branch of the red line were very yuppie (or in fact the Braintree branch between JFK and just before Quincy Center). Or like Todd suggested, some of the areas along the commuter rail. Perhaps you are just limiting yourself to areas with shortages and not looking at other equally convenient areas close to transit if not a little further away from downtown.
-Dave
I found Boston more inviting, interesting, and lively than Philly, but I spent 4 years in college in the Boston area and exactly 1 day visiting Philly so I'm probably a little biased. ;-)
Have you looked in Brighton or East Boston? Maybe Quincy, if you don't mind the commute? Is Somerville still cheap or has it gotten too pricey for its location/environment in the 2 years since I graduated?
As for Philly-NYC, Amtrak takes about 1.5 hours on non-Metroliners, a little less on Metroliners. NJT/SEPTA takes about 2-2.5 hours, and is much, much cheaper.
David,
I just moved from Boston and am from Philadelphia, so I think I can give you some advice. Philadelphia is *very* cheap, especially compared to Boston. Boston's problem is the same as NYC, it was under rent control for many years (NYC still is), and no new new housing was being added (still isn't).
If you want to stay in Boston, I reccomend you immediately start looking around cheaper places than Brookline or Back Bay (kind of like coming to NYC and expecting to find a great deal on 5th Ave. or in Soho). For instance, there's Quincy on the Red Line, which has much better prices and is still very accessible and is a very nice place to live. You could also try Dorchester near Quincy. Jamaica Plain is also still somewhat reasonable. Beyond that you could try living out of the city, as suggested by others. I lived in Lowell for 1 year at 40 Highland St., a block and a half from the train station for $650 a month in a 640 sq. ft. 2 bedroom. Its right downtown and is very safe and the train service is quick and frequent.
In Philadelphia, the entire area around Drexel and Penn is a reasonable place to live, lots of students live there. You could also live in Fairmount, north of downtown, or in S. Philly for very reasonable rates. Somewhat further afield, there are excellent apartment deals in Mt. Airy (accesible to downtown via the R7 and R8 commuter lines), Fox Chase (also on the R8), Fern Rock (on the R1, R2, R3, R5), Oak Lane (on the R1 and R5), and in various suburbs.
I suggest you try a few of the computerized aparment rental sites like these:
www.rent.net
www.apartments.com
I got my apartment in Lowell through rent.net.
And also the classifieds for Boston and Philadelphia:
www.globe.com
www.philly.com
Good luck!
Andrew Byler
[I lived in Lowell for 1 year at 40 Highland St., a block and a half from the train station for $650 a month in a 640 sq. ft. 2 bedroom. Its right downtown and is very safe and the train service is quick and frequent.]
Lowell is at the end of (guess what?) the Lowell commuter rail line. It is in Zone 6. Monthly rail/subway unlimited ride passes are usually available thru your school at a discount. From the MBTA website, a monthly pass is $112, but school semester passes work out to $100/month.
I rode the Lowell line during the "T" party. Frequent service Mon-Fri. Somewhat less at weekends, but not unmanageable. Service was fast and on time. The Lowell terminates at North Station. If you exit thru the WEST doors, the Green Line el stop is just across the street (and Inbound you get to go around that Chicago-style 90¡ turn on the el before descending into the tunnel! What could be better?).
Good luck in your hunt!
Phila is loaded with a full range of affordable housing, much of it in the University City (Drexel/Penn) area. Powelton Village, north of Market St on the northern fringe of Drexel, is a very popular place. Spruce Hill, generally west of 40th/south of Spruce on the western frontier of Penn's campus, is similarly popular. There are convenient ties to Center City via the subway-surface lines, with 10 serving PV and 11, 13, 34 and 36 through SH.
Interestingly enough, the University City District, a special services area recently created for the Drexel/Penn area, identifies itself with a symbol sign which shows the front left quarter (graphically) of a Kawasaki car.
Drexel is close to just about everything, transit wise. The main university campus is off 33rd Street on all Subway-Surface Trolleys, and 34th Street from the Market Street Subway Elevated.
Otherwise, all regional rail lines stop at 30th street - which also serves Amtrak and NJTransit. and is approximately a half mile from campus. There are also shuttle busses for University City that go to the train station if it were raining.
I currently live in on-campus housing, but there are a number of fairly cheap apartments in the area. From a personal experience in Camden... I don't think I would make that my mailing address.
Feel free to email me if you have any other questions.
One other quick note: Drexel operates on the Quarter calendar (for now)... "Fall Term" starts September 25, whic is basically several weeks after most other colleges and universities are going back. Just points to ponder.
Ever since I left chicago, rent has always seemed really high. Among big cities I think the rent is unusually low in chicago.
The reason the rent is so low in Chicago is because it is not a nice place to live. There are more apartments than people who want to rent and that is where supply and demand come in to play which is the reason for low rent. I know people are going to disagree, but I lived there for 22 years and hated it. Too much racial tension, extremely segregated neighborhoods, extreme disrespect for the police, a police department that has extreme disrespect for the citizens, and many, many more things that I experienced first hand. Did you know that for the last five years (possibly longer, I don't have stats before that) Chicago has had more murders than New York. And Chicago is one third the size of New York!
The rent is so low in Chicago because the city never made the mistake of having rent control or any other Soviet-style constraints on the housing market. Also, Chicago maintains a very favorable climate toward new construction. The city is like a kid with a Lego set, always building up and tearing down and building up again, and occasionally producing an architectural masterpiece in the process. See my other posting on this thread regarding Chicago's rental market.
As for nobody wanting to live in Chicago?? Well, there's a massive amount of new residential construction in the city now, and developers aren't building these projects out of the goodness of their hearts. People want to live in Chicago, pure and simple.
Your own experience my vary, but I found Chicago to be very livable. I've never dealt with the public schools, so I can't comment there. My limited dealings with the police have been very pleasant (well, about as pleasant as can be expected when you're in any situation that requires the police to be involved).
About the crime, Chicago is a city of extremes. I'd venture to say that Chicago's worst neighborhoods are far worse than anything in New York, but that Chicago's best neighborhoods are likewise better than anything in New York. It's Chicago's most rotten neighborhoods that weigh down the crime statistics for the entire city, and most people know to avoid those areas.
Sorry you hate Chicago, but it's been my observation that most Chicagoans are extremely loyal to the city. Chicago must be doing something right to earn that loyalty, and people who share your feelings are obviously a very small minority. (Actually, most of them moved to DuPage County, but they tend to hate cities in general.)
-- David
Boston, MA
Interesting about the dangerous neighborhoods.The precinct in East New York in the Ealy 90's had over 100 homicides per year. Same went for some parts of harlem.You mentionned that some parts of Chicago were worst than these areas. it's hard to beleive
Can you be more specific about which ones. I know the last time I was at Pulaski and 16th ave, I missed a daylight drive-by shooting by 10 mins.Which other neighborhoods would you consider being worst off than NYC?
Pulaski and 16th Av? That's not an intersection.
Anyway, basically the entire west and south side of Chicago are worse than anywhere in New York. The neighborhoods that come to mind are Austin, Garfield Park, and Englewood. All of the neighborhoods on the south side from about Western Av east to the lake are worse than anywhere in New York. Just a couple of exceptions like Hyde Park and Bridgeport. The entire west side which is officially bordered by Grand Av on the north and the Stevenson Expy on the south is also worse than anywhere in New York. The exception is the Near West Side around the United Center where Million dollar lofts are starting to go up. Also, the north side neighborhood of Uptown is just as bad. When you look at a map, these areas of insanely high crime take up a large portion of the city.
I have a good example on this subject: A couple of times I have been in Harlem late at night after going to the Apollo Theater. After the show I had to walk down 125th to catch the 1 train and I never encountered any problems. If you tried to walk down 55th St in Englewood, you would not get out of there without some incident.
Ah, yes, Bridgeport. The first Lithuanian settlement in Chicago. I've been down Halsted St. a few times in my day, even took part in a few dance festivals at the International Amphitheatre. I'm curious if the old Lithuanian Hall is still there. I looked for it while driving along Halsted four years ago, but didn't see it.
Marquette Park has gone down the tubes as well.
I'm not sure if the Lithuanian Hall is still there but they just tore down the International Ampitheater late last year. Even though the building was in disrepair and mostly unused, I was still sad to see it go.
That reminds me of something else. To this day, I still miss the old Chicago Stadium. There was nothing more exciting than going to a Blackhawks game there. The crowd being so loud during the National Anthem, the famous foghorn, and the Hawks' energy that was provided from the crowd noise is an experience that I will never forget. I remember a few years in the early 90's when the team was not that good but they would only lose about 4 home games the entire season. Other teams were actually intimidated to play there.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about the old Chicago Stadium.
But what you have to say about crime in Chicago is a different story. First, can you back up your statement that Chicago has had more murders than NYC for 5 years with a citation of some sort?
Secondly, your sweeping generalizations of the south and west sides are bunk. This white boy from the suburbs spent a lot of time wandering around the south side (and a little bit on the west side) in the early 90s. I sat on 55th st waiting for a bus after getting off the El (clearly in englewood) many times in the middle of the night. Once a drunk guy bothered us. Have you ever been to South Chicago (the neighborhood, not the whole south side)? Most of that is solid middle class. There are zillions of relatively safe areas on the south side. There are a few damn scary places too. Also, 125th st in Harlem is not exactly Mott Haven. In fact, its probably no more dangerous than times square - busy places are always pretty safe. I have to ask - have you ever been to the south side, outside of the expressways and hyde park?
Read my post to BJ. I already went through this.
How did you get off the el and wait for a bus on 55th st in Englewood? The Englewood branch of the el only stops at Halsted/63rd and Ashland/63rd. In other words, you lied to me.
The neighborhood South Chicago is mostly solid middle class? This neighborhood has a median home value of $59,800 and a median household income of $22,840. That is not middle class. In fact, it is quite far from middle class.
I don't know why I am responding to you after you lied to me but I have been to EVERY neighborhood in Chicago.
In your opinion, which is the most dangerous neighbourhood in Chicago? We took the EL out West in broad day light only to make it to Pulaski ave. then turn around. It was very intimidating going through an area of vacant lots amid boarded up victorain style homes along with abandoned tenements. I must admit at one time this must have been a very nice place to live! It's sad to see the fall on such a large scale of an entire part of a city just outside downtown.
How would this compare with areas in NYC?
Marty.
How did you get off the el and wait for a bus on 55th st in Englewood? The Englewood branch of the el only stops at Halsted/63rd and Ashland/63rd. In other words, you lied to me.
Garfiled Boulevard is otherwise known as 55th street, and both the Red and Green lines each make a stop there. Both stops are firmly within the Englewood neighborhood. You should know this if you are as familiar with Chicago as you claim to be.
But don't let the facts get in the way of your little pissing contest. Reasonable people can disagree about many things, but your over-generalizations and constant Chicago-bashing is beginning to sound more like a personal problem.
-- David
Boston, MA
David Cole, what is your problem? Before you make up a lie, do some research first. OK?
The green line Garfield Blvd stop is at 55th (Garfield) and King Dr. This is in Washington Park. NOT ENGLEWOOD!
The red line stop at 55th is in the middle of the Dan Ryan. This is NOT AN ELEVATED LINE. Even so, this is still in Washington Park, NOT ENGLEWOOD. ENGLEWOOD OFFICIALLY BEGINS WEST OF WELLS. WHICH IS WEST OF THE DAN RYAN.
To put this in your words so you understand, the only stops that are "firmly within the Englewood Neighborhood" are Ashland/63rd and Halsted/63rd.
Call 312-836-7000 and ask them to send you a CTA map. Then maybe you won't post false information anymore.
I'm not from Chicago, but you can be from any city, or no city, to realize you are a DAMN FOOL.
If there is a difference between the Englewood neighborhood other than name, then please tell us what makes WP that much safer that makes McCabe's statement a lie.
And as for the altitude of the Red line, that is irrelevant, it is still part of the L system and thus all of the station on it are L stations.
For someone who so much loathes Chicago, you seem to spend so much time talking about it, you're obviously in denial. Or, as you would so eloquently put it, you're lying.
Pigs of Royal Island
So were getting jerky now? There is a HUGE difference between Englewood and Washington Park. Go research why for yourself because I am not going to give information to a clown. I don't know why I spend so much time talking about Chicago. Wait I got it. Maybe its because it is where I grew up and lived for 29 years. I am in Denial? I am not an alcoholic or on coke so that line makes no sense whatsoever. I know just about everything there is to know about the CTA and the city and I am providing accurate information to the people of this board. I don't want someone from out of town riding a train into Englewood and then getting murdered or raped (yes men get rapen in Englewood to, just watch the WGN news) because someone on this board provided false information.
You called me a damn fool. That sounds like a personal issue to me. Well I am not going to argue with you on the internet like the pussy that you are. If you have a problem with me I live on west 73rd. We will settle this on the street.
I rest my case.
-- David
Boston, MA
There is a HUGE difference between Englewood and Washington Park. Go research why for yourself because I am not going to give information to a clown. I don't know why I spend so much time talking about Chicago. Wait I got it. Maybe its because it is where I grew up and lived for 29 years. I am in Denial? I am not an alcoholic or on coke so that line makes no sense whatsoever. I know just about everything there is to know about the CTA and the city and I am providing accurate information to the people of this board. I don't want someone from out of town riding a train into Englewood and then getting murdered or raped (yes men get rapen in Englewood to, just watch the WGN news) because someone on this board provided false information.
It might well be true that Neighborhood X has a much higher crime rate than Neighborhood Y, but it does not follow that a particular block or other small area located just inside Neighborhood X (near its boundary with Neighborhood Y) is going to be perfectly safe. Criminals don't respect neighborhood boundaries, which of course tend to be indistinct in the first place. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if some of them deliberately cross into the "good" neighborhood in search of better prey.
I don't know this area of Chicago at all, but it seems to me that this station (55th - Garfield, IIRC) is not going to be a safe place just because it's over the line in Washington Park rather than in Englewood.
Peter you are correct. The two stations in question are not safe at all. They are however safer than Englewood and I was just correcting the original poster about those two stations not being in Englewood.
I'm sure where you live and in most other places, crime spills over into bordering sections of nearby neighborhoods. In most cases though this is not the case in Chicago...and I have no idea why... Possibly because of the segregation factor. Englewood and Washington Park are seperated by the Dan Ryan Expressway which is 14 lanes wide and has CTA tracks in the middle of it. So Washington Park has quite a lower crime rate (though it is still not a safe neighborood) than Englewood.
A perfect example of this is the Oak Park and Austin border. Oak Park is one of Chicago's nicest suburbs and Austin is one of the worst neighborhoods. The boundary is Austin Av. Immediately to the west of Austin Av in Oak Park there are tree lined streets and beautiful large homes that have a high market value. There is very little crime in Oak Park. Immediately to the east of Austin Av is the neighborhood of Austin with drug dealers on every corner, boarded up and run down houses, garbage all over the place, and one of the highest crime rates in the city. When you drive east across Austin Av it looks like you entered a different country or a war zone. From rags to riches in about 100ft.
re stark differences between adjacent neighborhoods
A perfect example of this is the Oak Park and Austin border. Oak Park is one of Chicago's nicest suburbs and Austin is one of the worst neighborhoods. The boundary is Austin Av. Immediately to the west of Austin Av in Oak Park there are tree lined streets and beautiful large homes that have a high market value. There is very little crime in Oak Park. Immediately to the east of Austin Av is the neighborhood of Austin with drug dealers on every corner, boarded up and run down houses, garbage all over the place, and one of the highest crime rates in the city. When you drive east across Austin Av it looks like you entered a different country or a war zone. From rags to riches in about 100ft.
Sounds very much like East 96th Street in Manhattan. To the south is the Upper East Side, one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the United States. To the north, East Harlem.
Sorry that's 16th street. Negate the previous post, i just got the answers here in this one. Thanks, Marty
Some thoughts on your dilemma...
1) I guess the population of the country has grown, but the City of Boston (and Brookline) still has the same land area. I guess demand has grown but supply within the two cities' limits hasn't. Maybe you'll be lucky one day and Boston will get crummy and you will be able to afford to live there. Will you be happy then??
2) When I got my first job, I wanted to live in Georgetown, DC, but I accepted living on Route 1 outside the Beltway in Virginia. I think you're just a Yuppie who doesn't earn enough yet to live his dream, sorry to say.
3) If you plan on just up-and-going to Drexel, shouldn't you apply and get accepted there first?? And Drexel IS on two subway train lines and the commuter lines, and very convenient to get to from every neighborhood and suburb in the Philadelphia area. You would have no trouble getting a place to live.
[Some thoughts on your dilemma...
2) When I got my first job, I wanted to live in Georgetown, DC, but I accepted living on Route 1 outside the Beltway in Virginia. I think you're just a Yuppie who doesn't earn enough yet to live his dream, sorry to say.]
You're being a bit too harsh on David. Remember that he's attending graduate school in Boston. While I may be generalizing a bit, students usually prefer to live reasonably close to campus, at least in comparison to workers and their jobs. Students often are involved in various academic and social activities beyond normal class hours. It's not like working at a typical job, where you leave at the end of the day and don't return until the next morning. Living some distance away is more of an inconvenience for students and might impair their educational experiences.
1) I guess the population of the country has grown, but the City of Boston (and Brookline) still has the same land area. I guess demand has grown but supply within the two cities' limits hasn't. Maybe you'll be lucky one day and Boston will get crummy and you will be able to afford to live there. Will you be happy then??
Or maybe the local governments could relax their asinine zoning and rental laws and tell the local NIMBY crowd to go screw themselves. At that point Boston may actually become more favorable to new construction that would alleviate the housing shortage. But we'll probably see hell freeze over first; it seems people here would rather just bitch and whine about high housing prices rather than push for any real reforms. Right now the only thing that would make me happy is having a secure place to live and to be able to get on with my degree. If and when I leave Boston, whatever happens here is no longer my concern.
2) When I got my first job, I wanted to live in Georgetown, DC, but I accepted living on Route 1 outside the Beltway in Virginia. I think you're just a Yuppie who doesn't earn enough yet to live his dream, sorry to say.
You don't know shit about me. I wouldn't care for a neighborhood like Back Bay even if I could afford it, and I actually feel more at home in places like Somerville or Jamaica Plain than Brookline or Cambridge. I'll admit to stopping at Starbucks for coffee on my way to work most mornings, but I have never once worn an item of clothing made by Calvin Klein or Tommy Hilfiger, and I don't even own a cell phone. And I actually prefer Dunkin' Donuts coffee to Starbucks anyway.
Maybe a little background would be in order before anybody else feels compelled to make judgements about me:
I spent the past four years in Chicago laying awake at night not knowing where my next month's rent money was going to come from and sometimes even going without basic groceries until my next paycheck. This while trying to work and go to school at the same time, and while my school's financial aid office was throwing every bureaucratic roadblock in the book in front of me. And I'm not one of those students fortunate enough to have mommy and daddy pick up the tab; every dime of my tuition and living expenses comes from my own pocket. For icing on the cake, throw in the fact that I haven't had health insurance in over a year and I still have bills to pay from a trip to the emergency room last April.
After four years of living like this, and after my GPA and credit rating had both been shot to hell, I decided to come to Boston and transfer to the Boston Architectural Center. The BAC is one of only two accredited architecture programs in the country (Drexel being the other), where students work full-time during the day and take their classes at night, a perfect arrangement for somebody in my shoes. I decided to move here in the spring because I knew housing would be difficult to find for the fall. I visited Boston last April and found a place in Brookline that had reasonable rent (for the area) and that was convenient to the Green Line. (And if you want to be really anal about it, it's actually about 50 feet on the Brighton side of the city limits. However, my mail comes through Brookline so that's where I tell people I live.) After I had committed to moving into this place, I was informed that it was for a summer sublet only and was given a chance to back out of the deal. Since I couldn't change my plans by that point, I said hell with it and took it. Immediately after moving in, I began looking for permanent place to live. Other summer sublets were plentiful, but permanent housing offerings were few and far-between. However, I eventually found a place in Jamaica Plain that I liked and made arrangements to move in. All was fine up until about two weeks ago when I was infomred that the room in JP is no longer available; apparently the roommate who I was supposed to be replacing decided that she wasn't going to move out after all.
So here I am, in August, looking for a place to live in Boston and the clock is ticking. Contrary to what some people here have implied, I am not looking only in Back Bay or Beacon Hill. The only things I was originally picky about was that it be within walking distance to the Red Line (first choice, as I work near Central Square in Cambridge), or the Orange Line (second choice, since I could transfer to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing). At first I ruled out the Green Line because it's too slow and crowded and the Blue Line because it offers no direct connection to the Red Line, but as my search continued I became less and less picky about location. A sampling of the places I've been looking so far: Allston, Brighton, Brookline, Cambridge, Somerville, Medford, Charlestown, Revere, Downtown, North End, Beacon Hill, Back Bay, South End, South Boston, Roxbury, Watertown, Belmont, Malden, and Jamaica Plain. Recently I've been looking in the closer-in suburbs along the commuter rail lines, but that poses problems because I'll be on a very tight schedule once school starts and won't have much time or flexibility for having my life revolve around a commuter rail timetable. And that issue aside, I don't have a car, so I'd still have to worry about getting groceries, etc, out in the suburbs. Regardless, I haven't had any luck with any of the places I've looked.
I've been keeping constant watch on the roommate listings on bostonapartments.com, and sending out close to 10-15 e-mails a day for any housing arrangements that sound even vaguely promising. Out of those 10-15 e-mails, I'll get maybe one or two responses from people who are interested in having me come in and look at the available room. I go and look at the place and meet with my prospective roommates, and maybe about half of those actually seem to have any potential. Even then, I'm competing with about 10-20 other people who are interested in the same bedroom, and so far I haven't won the beauty contest yet. And assuming I finally get past that, I still have to go through the whole credit check process with the landlord, where the past four years of my financial hell becomes painfully visible. I finally realized that no landlord within 50 miles of Boston is even going to give me the time of day, and it may even be a stretch for me to get approved for an apartment in Chicago or Philly. (I got my last apartment in Chicago four years ago when I had no credit history one way or the other, and available housing was more plentiful. I'm now beginning to question my wisdom in letting go of that apartment.)
So here I am. There's not much doubt in my mind that moving to Boston was a mistake, and now the only choice to make is whether I should try my luck in Philly or take my toys and and head back home to Chicago. (And no, I won't be living in Lincoln Park anytime soon even if I could get a place there. Someplace like Logan Square would suit me much better.)
3) If you plan on just up-and-going to Drexel, shouldn't you apply and get accepted there first?? And Drexel IS on two subway train lines and the commuter lines, and very convenient to get to from every neighborhood and suburb in the Philadelphia area. You would have no trouble getting a place to live.
I applied to Drexel online last night, and I'm reasonably confident that I'll get in. The acceptance rate for their evening program in architecture is 78%. My GPA isn't that bad. I'm hoping to hear from them soon. I know this is a rather drastic step at the last moment, but it sure as hell beats not having a place to live in Boston. My only regret is that I didn't find out about Drexel's program until two days ago; I would have moved to Philly two years ago if I had known about it then.
The moral of the story: Unless you have walked a mile in my shoes, you would be wise to keep your judgements about my lifestyle and motivations to yourself.
-- David
Boston, MA
A sampling of the places I've been looking so far: Allston, Brighton, Brookline, Cambridge, Somerville, Medford, Charlestown, Revere, Downtown, North End, Beacon Hill, Back Bay, South End, South Boston, Roxbury, Watertown, Belmont, Malden, and Jamaica Plain.
Before anybody asks, throw in Quincy, North Quincy, Dorchester, Mattapan and Braintree as well.
-- David
Boston, MA
[And assuming I finally get past that, I still have to go through the whole credit check process with the landlord, where the past four years of my financial hell becomes painfully visible. I finally realized that no landlord within 50 miles of Boston is even going to give me the time of day, and it may even be a stretch for me to get approved for an apartment in Chicago or Philly.]
I'm sure it's a tough situation; as I noted in a different thread, I've heard that it can be more difficult from a credit standpoint to rent an apartment than it is to get a mortgage. Yet this is to a considerable extent a legislatively created problem. Laws in most states make it a supreme nightmare for landlords to evict tenants who fail to pay their rent. It's a long, expensive process, almost guaranteed to cause financial hardship for landlords (the vast majority of whom are not, contrary to popular belief, wealthy tycoons). So it's really not surprising that landlords insist on top-notch credit ratings. They simply can't afford to take the risks. And it's also evident that this policy throws out the baby with the bath water, by making things very difficult for would-be tenants who (like many people) have less than perfect credit histories. In this way, laws meant to help tenants in fact do the opposite.
Laws in most states make it a supreme nightmare for landlords to evict tenants who fail to pay their rent. It's a long, expensive process, almost guaranteed to cause financial hardship for landlords.
Very true, although the laws vary from location to location. The three cities with the most restrictive rental laws and/or rent control within the past few years are: 1) San Fransisco, 2) New York City, and 3) greater Boston. And, guess what, the three cities in which it's all but impossible to find affordable housing: 1) San Fransisco, 2) New York City, and 3) greater Boston. Amazing coincidence, huh? I'm not sure about SF or NYC, but my boss (who is also landlord in Somerville) tells me that in Massachusetts it takes at least a full six months to evict a tenant for non-payment of rent, and the tenant is apparently under no obligation to pay rent during that period. I can't really blame the landlords for the mess, since they're in a rather tight position themselves. My fury is directed squarely toward the politicians who passed these feel-good laws and ended up creating far more problems than they were trying to solve.
Chicago, on the other hand, hasn't had rent control since the Great Depression, and laws regarding evictions seem to be a reasonable balance between protecting the rights of both tenants as well as landlords. IIRC, a typical evicition proceeding in Chicago takes about 90 days, and the tenant is still obligated to pay rent during that period, plus pay for court costs and attorney's fees incurred by the landlord. (During a perticularly dark period of my financial problems a couple years ago I had a first-hand look at about the first 60 days of that process, but luckily I had reached a payment agreement with my landlord by the time my hearing in housing court came up. I pray to God I'm never in a position where I have to go through anything like that again.)
Also, Chicago maintains a very favorable climate toward new construction (usually to a fault when any sort of historic preservation issue comes up -- Chicago could be considered the opposite end of the spectrum from Boston), making it much easier to build and much less risky to be a landlord there. More high-rise residential buildings are under construction at this moment in Chicago than have ever been built in Boston or New York over the past 25 years or so. The result? Chicago remains an amazingly affordable and accessible city. Studio apartments in the heart of the Gold Coast (Chicago's counterpart to the Upper East Side), start out at around $700 a month, and in more typical neighborhoods can be found around $400-500 a month, practically unheard of in New York.
-- David
Boston, MA
[The three cities with the most restrictive rental laws and/or rent control within the past few years are: 1) San Fransisco, 2) New York City, and 3) greater Boston. And, guess what, the three cities in which it's all but impossible to find affordable housing: 1) San Fransisco, 2) New York City, and 3) greater Boston.]
While I have no use whatsoever for rent control, I do have to point out that all three of the cities you mention have rather obvious geographic constraints on growth, constraints that invariably cause higher prices due to simple supply and demand. New rental construction in NYC is not subject to any rent controls. Yet almost all the new rental buildings in Manhattan are breathtakingly expensive. Given the extreme shortage of land, as well as the higher construction costs associated with such a dense environment, there's simply no way to build housing within reach of anyone except the wealthy (at least not without massive government subsidies, which aren't available).
Demographic factors also increase demand for rental housing - and therefore rent levels - in all three cities. New York and San Francisco tend to have a higher percentage of single people than does the nation in general. I'm not so sure about Boston, but I suppose the city's huge student population puts it in the same category too. While more and more single people are buying houses today, it's still true that other things being equal, nothing motivates the average person to buy a house like tying the proverbial knot. High percentages of singles translates into low homeownership rates. Naturally, the increased demand for rental housing increases rents. It's hard to change matters. I also suspect that Chicago, which you mentioned as a place with reasonable rents, has a relatively lower percentage of singles than the other three (although it's still probably in excess of the national average). Homeownership rates most likely are higher, leading to less intense competition for rents.
You bring up some interesting points. About the lack of geographic space: Chicago solved that problem in the 1890's by inventing the skyscraper. :-)
Seriously, I'd be interested to see if there's any major cities that have limited geographic space and yet are still reasonably affordable. And not counting Manhattan, New York seems to have enough physical space in the outer boroughs; Manhattan seems to be the only area where space is severely limited. And outside of Manhattan, I'd be willing to bet that there is a much lower percentage of singles and a much higher percentage of home ownership.
Other points to ponder: Here in the Boston area, even suburbs with relatively low density are still almost impossible to get an apartment in. In addition to shortages caused by spillover from the city, I'd suspect that this is also the result of laws on the books: The local rental laws here are mostly state laws, not municipal laws.
About San Francisco: Just out of curiousity, how expensive are Oakland or other surrounding areas compared to the city of San Francisco itself?
And about Philadelphia: I was amazed when I looked at some of the online rental listings and saw how cheap it is compared to NYC and Boston. I'd guess it's about the same or maybe even slightly less expensive than Chicago. Did Philly ever have rent control, and what sort of renters laws are on the books there? I know Philly was considered rather undesireable city for a long time, but given how close it is to NYC and the fact that it's managed to turn itself around in recent years, I still expected it to be at least a bit more expensive. What gives?
Any thoughts?
-- David
Boston, MA
David, "history...repeats... I moved from Chgo to Philly in 65 as a stepping stone to New York where I then lived early 66 to mid 70. Travel to Ny was and is good from Philly--you pay less 9in rent but each trip to NY adds up. By the way, (transit content) PRR and later PC had both weekeend bargains on the Wash NY line and Wed spcl fares NY Phil aiming at both shoppers and Wed matinee Broadway customers.
As to rent control--it is rare to see rent control in cities with largte out migration like Philly--high vacancy rates do the trick.
Oakland--is to SF as Bronx/Brooklyn to Manhattan longer more expensive commutte--lower rent--not much left of downtown Oakland after dark(although this is finally changing)
)--the curveball Oakland has one major asset--proximity to the Berkeley Campus(Berkeley has long since sunk below 3% vacancy rates)
I am a comfortable 25 min stroll from the University Pacific Film Archive--a magical pruveyor of interesting films.
[And not counting Manhattan, New York seems to have enough physical space in the outer boroughs; Manhattan seems to be the only area where space is severely limited. And outside of Manhattan, I'd be willing to bet that there is a much lower percentage of singles and a much higher percentage of home ownership.]
Some people indeed have responded to Manhattan's scarce and expensive rents by moving to the outer boroughs. There has been a whole procession of neighborhoods that have become popular with Manhattan "refugees." In Brooklyn, to take just one example, Greenpoint and Williamsburg fit into this category, as more and more people decide that a reasonably quick trip on the L train is worth saving hundreds of dollars every month in rent.
It's important to note that the outer boroughs are no cure-all. Three reasons in particular:
1. Some people will not consider living outside Manhattan, no matter what the cost.
2. NYC's rent control-caused shortages apply everywhere in the city.
3. As outer-borough 'hoods become trendy, they cease to be such a bargain.
As far as homeownership rates are concerned, Queens and Staten Island do indeed have much higher rates than Manhattan, though they're still probably lower than the national average (S.I. might come close, however). The Bronx and Brooklyn have lower rates, largely because they were developed with mostly multifamily houses and, of course, because incomes tend to be low.
Finally, as far as the percentage of singles in the outer boroughs is concerned, I really don't know, although I would doubt if the percentages are as high as Manhattan's.
David, you metioned that if you moved back to Chicago you would not be living in Lincoln Park but someplace like Logan Square.
Sounds like a plan...I hate Lincoln Park. I pretty much hate the whole city of Chicago also but Logan Square is one neighborhood that I like. I love how Logan Blvd and Kedzie Av are lined with trees and have those grass medians. The houses on both these streets are beautiful. There are plenty of great restaraunts and plenty of bars and clubs on Milwaukee. And of course, it is right by the blue line.
>>> the local governments could relax their asinine zoning and rental laws and tell the local NIMBY crowd to go screw themselves....If and when I leave Boston, whatever happens here is no longer my concern. <<<
It seems hardly surprising that local government would be much more responsive to permanent residents (the local NIMBY crowd) than transients with no stake in the city.
Tom
I see your point, but if it were realitically possible for us newcomers (i.e., "transients") to permanently settle in the city, then we'd be much more likely to have a stake in the city's affairs. However, I'm willing to bet that most country clubs aren't as hard to get into as the city of Boston. (I guess too many of those damn outsiders would interfere with the inbreeding process.)
Every healthy city needs a constant supply of new blood, and any city that makes it this difficult for people to settle into is bound to grow stagnant and die. It's already happening: Most of the local artists' community has been priced out of the city to such an extent that they've all packed their bags and headed off to Providence. That leaves Boston a culturally poorer city, and I fear that's only the tip of the iceburg. It will be interesting to see what happens to Boston when the next big recession hits and the local businesses begin tripping over each other to leave the city and its outrageous rents.
-- David
Boston, MA
Chicago does not have a higher crime rate then NYC! It has gone down consecutively in the last 10 years or more. NYC is still the capital of that, just because we took the tallest building away from you, don't get mad.
Chicago is not covered in Grafitti everywhere outside of downtown like NYC is.
Adam must have gotten robbed riding the El late at night when he should have been driving his big gas-guzzeling SUV.
Englewood and the West-Side past the United Center are probably the worst neighborhoods in the country, I will agree with you there.
But the only place in my opinion that even comes close to comparing the NYC, manhattan, is Chicago from the Loop North all the way to Addison Street. The only boundry is Cabrini Green which was the worst neighborhodd in the country. It is now abandoned because the land is so valueable in the middle of the gold coast. Million dollar condos are being built right next to the old projects as they come down. When Starbucks moved in a few months ago, I knew Cabrini had seen it's final harah.
South Loop, Downtown, Gold Coast, Lincoln Park and Lakeview/Wrigleyville are some of the neatest and safest neighborhoods in the world. They are about 100% white, but still excepting to people who can afford to live there. Along with a handful of other like Logan Square and Ravenswood. Look at the Gold Coast, Chicago/State Red Line Station is in the process of a almost 2 year 25 million dollar renovation. Don't know if they needed to spend that much, but it is the third most used L station out of the entire system. This shows that Chicago does have good public transportation that people use in wealthy areas.
Rush St. is now being considered to be as exclusive as Rodeo Dr. or Broadway.
Chicago also has a lot of ethnic neighborhoods that are safe to go into and eat during the day like Pilsen, Chinatown, Argyle St, Devon, Uptown, and good ribs in the really bad areas like the South Side.
On Public Transportation Chicago is safe anywhere North or North-West of Downtown and South-west by Midway. Down to 35th/Comsikey is also starting to be transformed into a good area. Mayor Daley Lives South of Roosevelt in once a ghetto, now rich Dearborn Park or Station, whatever it's called.
Driving is safe generally in any part of the city during daylight hours besides Englewood.
In my opinion Chicago will always be the greatest city in the world. I love to travel and NYC will always come in a close second and #1 as capital of the world. NYC's even more ethnic areas make it great also.
BJ
PS: A big part of our crime is the housing projects. They are comming down as fast as possible. Robert Taylor Home near Comiskey Park just got the o.k. to being demolition on all of it this fall. Cabrini also just settled the 10 year lawsuit with residents to begin tearing down the rest of the Gold Coast Projects.
And University of Illinois at Chicago is now tearing down the old Maxwell St. to make a new Campus and Shopping entertainment district which will cost approx. 1.5 billion dollars.
...just because we took the tallest building away from you, don't get mad.
I want the tallest building to be in Chicago again, because it is certainly better than Kuala Lumpur.
[I want the tallest building to be in Chicago again, because it is certainly better than Kuala Lumpur.]
While the Petronas Towers are now the world's tallest, there's an even taller building u/c in Shanghai.
Will it be taller than the proposed 7 South Dearborn?
Simple answer: No.
Long answer: The 7 South Dearborn proposal would have reached 1507 feet, but there are financing problems (Surprise!) and developer Scott Toberman may not get the building up without outside help.
The Shanghai World Financial Center was originally designed to be shorter, but after 7 South Dearborn was proposed, it was redesigned to a proposed height of 1546 feet. It was under preliminary construction, but with the redesigns being evaluated, construction is on hold.
Comparision figures: Sears Tower is 1454 feet, Petronas Towers are 1483 feet. Note that the Sears Tower antennas do NOT count in the figure, while the Petronas Towers' spires DO count.
Correct me if I'm wrong with any info.
...just because we took the tallest building away from you, don't get mad.
I want the tallest building to be in Chicago again, because it is certainly better than Kuala Lumpur.
[I want the tallest building to be in Chicago again, because it is certainly better than Kuala Lumpur.]
While the Petronas Towers are now the world's tallest, there's an even taller building u/c in Shanghai.
Will it be taller than the proposed 7 South Dearborn?
Simple answer: No.
Long answer: The 7 South Dearborn proposal would have reached 1507 feet, but there are financing problems (Surprise!) and developer Scott Toberman may not get the building up without outside help.
The Shanghai World Financial Center was originally designed to be shorter, but after 7 South Dearborn was proposed, it was redesigned to a proposed height of 1546 feet. It was under preliminary construction, but with the redesigns being evaluated, construction is on hold.
Comparision figures: Sears Tower is 1454 feet, Petronas Towers are 1483 feet. Note that the Sears Tower antennas do NOT count in the figure, while the Petronas Towers' spires DO count.
Correct me if I'm wrong with any info.
Well BJ, basically your whole post is a lie.
In 1999 Chicago had 693 murders while New York had 675. Chicago has one third the population of New York. This means that the murder rate in Chicago is much, much higher than New York. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Call the FBI or check their website if you don't believe those stats.
Chicago IS covered with grafitti in most neighborhoods throughout the city. New York does have more grafitti though. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I would rather look at the grafitti of New York as opposed to being murdered in Chicago.
Cabrini Green is abandoned? Wrong again. Plenty of the high rises still remain. Have you been on Division or Clybourn lately? It is still filled with prostitutes, drug dealers, sex offenders etc. Just listen to the 18th district police (frequency 460.1500) which covers the area from the river, north to Fullerton. This is a large area but half of the calls are in Cabrini Green.
You are completely off about neighborhoods that are 100% white. I have the Metro Chicago Almanac in front of me which has the info from the US Census. The South Loop is 84% black, Downtown is 21% black, Logan Square is 66% hispanic, Lakeview is 14% hispanic and 6% black, and Lincoln Park is 6% black and 7 % hispanic. If you want to check for yourself the same info is on the Chicago Tribune website under HOMES.
Chicago DOES NOT have a good public transportation system. If it did and everyone used it, why are the blue and red lines the only lines that operate 24 hours?
Rush St is as exclusive as Rodeo Dr or Broadway? I fell out of my chair laughing when I read that. Have you ever been to Rust St? It is all bars. Rodeo Dr is all shops, and Broadway in NY...well...has everything.
Why you felt the need to provide false information to everyone on this board is beyond me. I just moved from Chicago to New York in May and have been back for family occasions 4 times since then. I also still watch the WGN news every day. So your inaccuracies might get past someone else, but not me.
Facts speak louder than words! Thank you Adam, it is hard today to trust anyone.I've been to Chicago two years ago and it was not as beautifull as BJ painted it to be.
We were warned not once but by 4 different people; cab drivers and front desk clerks at the hotel , not to wander out west or South Chicago. From a tourist's point that is intimidating and scary.
Thanks again Adam.
I don't know how much new information I can give you as far as finding an apartment, but the city is lousy with places to live.
I am going to tell you that going to school is pretty much all you'll be able to do here. If you venture out for any reason after 7pm, you'll be sorely disappointed moving to Philly. Ouy great town pretty much is shut down by 8pm on most nights. Aside from the clubs on Delaware Avenue or South Street, there's nothing to do in Philadelphia at night.
If that doesn't bother you, than this isn't a bad place to live.
Drexel is located in University City, directly across the river from Center City, sharing the same general area with the Univerisy of Pennsylvania, so safety and Starbucks aren't problems there.
Areas close to Center City are Powelton Village, north of University City, Fairmount which is also considered the Art Museum area since it lies near there and Old City/Society Hill, the "bougie" part of town:):)
There are lots of apartments on the SW side of Center City although they aren't very accessible to rail.
Philly isn't a dangerous place in general but it has pockets of high crime locales. North Philly isn't bad aroudn Temple, but once you go north of Fairmount Avenue, unless you find yourself on the Temple campus, keep your eyes open. Same goes for parts of South and West Philadelphia.
And as was stated previously, there is no good reason for anyone who doesn't live there to go to Camden, the city directly across the Delaware. I warn you in advance, don't go there on foot.
what is so bad about Camden? I read in the book by Camilio Joe Vergara "NEW AMERICAN GHETTO" that it was run down but I did not know it was dangerous.
In his book he also warns about Detroit, South along with West Chicago, Gary, North of Philly and of course NYC where is has come from. The Bronx.
There is no "nice" section of Camden. It's all post-industrial and very run down with a high crime rate, the poorest schools in NJ and a city government so inept it was taken over by the state because of evidence of gross mismanagement.
It's just not a nice place to be.
So it's even worse than Newark?
I gotta see this place.
So it's even worse than Newark?
Basically, yes. Camden does have a couple of nice blocks - three, perhaps, if you stretch a point - but other than that it's a war zone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are probably two 'nice' sections of Camden left, otherwise it's a typical big city in NJ (they all tend to look like the aftermath of nuclear war).
The waterfront area around the Aquarium is nice and the city is trying to keep it that way. You will see many policemen/women in this area.
At the far southern end, the Fairview section is still decent (nothing to see there for visitors - it's residential) but the rest of the city is chipping away at it, so who knows how long it will last that way.
The rest of the city has major problems and should be avoided at all costs.
How bad is it compared to parts of New York City?
It's not great. There are a few parts of NYC I would avoid any time. In Camden, I avoid just about all of it all the time.
Let's put it another way. Camden, like Detroit, has a 'tradition' on Mischief Night (the night before Halloween) in which vandals torch buildings, cars, etc just for the heck of it. It continues despite large-scale efforts to attack and prevent it. While the police and fire departments are out in force, of course our great news media is also on the scene ready to run the story and give it further attention.
In my days of visiting Paterson (dates) and an occasional visit to Newark I came to the conclusion New York City was far better than most of the New Jersey Cities. [except in the evil 70's].I also spent the summer of 1960 working out of Jersey City and wasn't impressed; I gather nowadays iit's come a long ways up. Bad thing was being in a place that had all the city problems and offered nothing to do or visit.
When we say avoided at all cost and the city has major problems what are we talking about. Is the industrial area really that dangerous?
Parts of the city are quite deserted and seriosuly rundown.
Just an image for you:
Upon crossing the Ben Franklin Bridge, the first image to greet your eye upon entering the city of Camden is quaint Riverfront State Prison.
It doesn't really mean anything, but still....
The prison is in what was once a great industrial area but is no more. Much of this is being torn down for the riverfront redevelopment (the
DRPA tram will 'land' here, near a new minor league baseball stadium and office buildings, etc). The little industry remaining in Camden is generally to the south and east of downtown (and calling it downtown is a stretch).
The prison reminds me of an interesting development. Some towns fight prisons. Camden actually welcomed it to get the jobs. For some reason, though, it allowed potentially valuable riverfront land to be used for the prison. Only in Camden...
One of the things that mystifies me is the recent decision to moor the New Jersey in Camden. Battleships aren't terribly effective at close range. :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For as far and wide as decay is in Camden, someone could always lie and attribute it to the NJ's guns? It's admirable that things like the Aquarium (and its new choo-choo!), the E-Center, and the coming NJ (allegedly to be put on permanent display/mooring next spring) are being completed to help Camden rise from the ashes. There is even a bit of gentrification going on around Cooper Hospital and the Rutgers campus. But Camden's biggest problem is its government, which hasn't helped it at all over the past 20+ years. Mayor after mayor is corrupt and things just don't get done despite the large sums of federal and state dollars that are thrown at the city.
There is no "nice" section of Camden. It's all post-industrial and very run down with a high crime rate, the poorest schools in NJ and a city government so inept it was taken over by the state because of evidence of gross mismanagement.
Jersey City was almost in as bad shape not too many years ago. Needless to say, it's a very different place today. I wouldn't write off Camden as a hopeless case, not yet.
How does it compare with the South Bronx, East New York, North Philly of South side Chicago???
How does it compare with the South Bronx, East New York, North Philly or South side Chicago???
I guess you may be right about the murder rates, Adam, but I still think Chicago is the cleanest and one of the greatest cities in the world. Newark N.J. has the highest crime rate, or did in the past didn't it?? Or maybe good old Gary Indiana right here??
Downtown Chicago is awesome. It doesn't compare to Manhattan, but still has some of the oldest and newest and coolest buildings in the world.
I personally still love the N. Side and Lincoln Park and think it is still awesome and a party scene if you are in your 20 or 30's. Saying Rush street is becomming exclusive like Rodeo Dr. or Broadway didn't come from my mouth, it came from the Chicago Sun-Times studying the restuarants & Bars and people that go there and their lifestyles.
Give Cabrini and Robert Taylor anther 5 years and they will be 100% gone. Take a ride on the Brown Line and you will see the luxury condos backing up to the high-rises.
The transit is good in my view. I am a rail fan, but if I need to get around past midnight, I will drive my car. It isn't that important to ride the El 24-7. Daylight is better anyway, with the awesome views the Loop lines give. The homeless still ride overnight and not just here, the weirdos ride after midnight in NYC also.
One of the main things that also makes Chicago nice is the fact that if your going to the United Center or Comiskey, you CAN drive into the bad areas. In NYC it costs $10.00 to go over the bridge and there is no parking in Manhattan!! You aren't going to hop on the train with your date anyway to take her out to dinner downtown. In NYC you have to. You can actually afford and find parking in downtown Chicago.
The point I'm trying to make is that Chicago isn't that bad of a city. It is one of the best in the world. Crime does exsist and there are really rough areas like Englewood. But any person in their right mind would have no reason to go to Englewood anyway.
You proved we aren't 100 percent segregated by proving the facts about the races in Lincoln Park.
For a city that has a beautiful downtown and awesome area to grow up and spend your 20's and 30's in, Chicago is the place. Lincoln Park and Lakeview are still one of the greatest areas in the world.
We have everthing you could possibly think of to do during all four of our seasons. In or within 100 miles of the city. Being able to walk to the Lakefront from your apartment is awesome. Eating some of the greatest variety of food in the world is awesome too.
Affordability and luxury all in one make our city one of the greatest. Also the only city where you can park your car and get around on rail transit besides NYC in the U.S.
The bottom line is that NYC will always without a doubt be the best in the world. However, Chicago comes in a close second. Crime really isn't that bad in the areas that you would want to live in.
When it comes to affordability we are #1.
The suburbs like Oak Park are also really neat. (And accessible via Metra UP-W and the Green Line 'L) Same thing with Evanston & Metra UP-N and the Purple Line.
BJ
1SouthFerry9 recommends...
Swerdlow, Marian.
"Underground Woman"
My 4 years as a NYC Subway Conductor.
Dwyer, Jim.
"Subway Lives**"
24 hours in the life of the NYC Subways.
(((**Amazon.com cites this
book as being "out of print"**)))
Dwyer, Jim.
"Subway Lives**"
24 hours in the life of the NYC Subways.
(((**Amazon.com cites this
book as being "out of print"**)))
It may be out of print, but doing a search for it at Antiquarian Book Exchange turned up 32 copies beginning at $7.00 and going up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This morning was a punch day on the LIRR (at least on my train). This was the first punch day I've encountered since I began commuting from L.I. again back in January. Ten years ago, it seemed like there were 2 or 3 punch days a month.
Had the LIRR discontinued punch days until just now?
Chuck
Uh....What's Punch day?
Sorry for the lack of description -- from what some say about LIRR personnel attitudes, it could be reasonably assumed that the conductor comes around and whacks selected commuters upside the head.
In reality, on a punch day the conductor actually collects the monthly and weekly tickets from each rider and puts a punch in one of the numbered boxes. Normally, the conductor just visually inspects those tickets as he walks by. Apparently punch day serves to prevent counterfeit tickets and also to ensure that tickets are not being used by multiple commuters.
Chuck
I commuted on the LIRR from Babylon and Lindenhurst for months, and the only punch days I remember were the first of the month.
:)Andrew
Also serves to make it hard for you to claim "I never used this months ticket, can I have a refund ?"
And if you get caught carring mom or dad's ticket (you are the wrong sex) opps wave the ticket good by .... sometimes they even make you prove the name on a Mail-N-Ride (happen to my son once).
Mr t__:^)
Whether or not tickets are punched depends on the collector.
Mark
I rode this car last night on a WTC-bound E train. I'm not usually much of an individual car-fan (as evidenced by my having no idea whether this was an R-32 or an R-38), but did notice that this car had a black floor -- something I've only seen on that set of R-68's (68A's ?) on the B train.
Does anyone know the background on this car?
Chuck
The car you were on was an R-32. The floors on these cars are in the process of being replaced. I believe they have already completed about 30 or 40 of them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R32s are in the process of getting new floors. They will be getting black floors. Only the R68As and R142/142As have them. Only 16 R68As have them because the cars suffered flood damage. The R68As had the floors installed in 1995.
That's the...
running on...
's
Questions & Answers.
There are also a few R-62/62A's with the black floor treatment.
Peace,
ANDEE
3700 & 3701 also have black floors. I rode those from Union Tpke to Roosevelt Ave coming home from work last month. As far as I know, all E's run on R-32's & R-46's.
You are correct. The E has mostly R-32s with some R-46s. The R-38s can be found on the A and C lines. The R-38s DID run on the E when they were new.
And also in the first 2 weeks of February, 1 trainset for several days, and mixed consists for all the others (during the C GO).
Just saw the Sperry Rail Car at Canarsie Yard this morning on one of the far tracks (MOW).
Anybody know if any tracks are due for replacing on the Eastern Division.
Doug aka BMTman
No, but ain't that what SRS is for determining?
-Hank
The Times' web site is reporting yet another light-rail mishap at BWI airport. In a repeat of last spring's accident, a train struck the barriers at the end of the track outside the international terminal. About 20 injuries, all minor. No word yet on damages.
Baltimore LRV crash details from the Washington Post
Wow...they saw fuel all over the place. Not to mention they're at an airport, hear a loud bang, and immediately think a TRAIN has crashed....
Morons.
-Hank
That's the media for you. As to the accident, this is #2 at the same location (now we have both tracks at BWI OOS) and the passengers were quoted as saying that the operator was very erratic the whole trip.
The previous accident (February) was due to the operator being under the influence of both prescription and illegal drugs.
The operator in the current accident has a record of 3 other "accidents" (possibly minor LRV vs. Auto ones) in the past 13 months.
The current suspicion is that he was under the influence of something in this accident. The MTA has a mandatory drug testing after any accident policy, so he will be tested. Betcha it comes up positive for something illegal.
This brings up a proposal - If a transit operator (rail, bus, or what have you) tests positive for an illeagal substance, he should be immediately dismissed!!! One strike and you're out.
It may sound draconian, but almost every rail accident that involves running into something (another train, a bumper) has been under the influence of something, either booze or drugs.
How about a little compassion? Hand him a mop and let him do something that's not safety-sensitive. If he messes up again, then fire him.
When you have people's lives literally in the palm of your hand, there's no place for a screw-up.
The MTA sacked the operator of last Tuesday's BWI wreck. The 3 other "accidents" included one (the most recent other accident) that was chargeable. There is a possibility that his immediate supervisor will also be disciplined, as the operator had just returned from a medical leave and was taking s strong prescription medication for a back problem and had informed the supervisor of that fact. The supervisor allowed him to work, setting up the whole incedent.
At BSM, the other "light rail" (streetcar) operator in town, the Transportation Department requires a doctor's certificate for any operator that goes on medical leave. The certificate must state that the person is medically clear to operate streetcars. The certificate goes in the operator's Service Jacket and stays there until the person finally leaves the service.
Considering that the cause of the wreck was use of a prescribed medication which had been approved by the operator's supervisor, there seems to be no reason at all for action against the operator. If working while using the medication is unsafe, the operator should have been placed in other duties, kept on sick leave, or placed on disability. I don't see any misconduct by the operator in this case.
He had three other accidents with LRV's, one chargeable. It is quite likely that the supervisor will be disciplined as well for his role in the accident. The operator had just returned to work after 3 weeks on sick leave for the back problem.
If by "chargeable" you mean that the operator was at fault, it would seem to me that the latest accident was not chargeable. What we appear to have (and I know I am speculating) is someone who exhausted his sick leave and was forced by management to return to work while still on medication. The prior accidents that were not his fault are besides the point. The prior accident that was his fault was not serious enoughto get him fired. The latest accident provides no additional reason for firing him; he should have been continued on sick leave or placed on disability or assigned temporary duties consistent with his medication and back condition. Having blundered by not choosing an appropriate course of action, management has compounded its error by firing the victim of its error.
Impact speed was 48 MPH, which means he fed full power from BWI Business Park to BWI Airport Station without shutting off. Speed limit at BWI Airport is 8 miles per hour. Accident #3 was very chargable, thus the firing.
He also had tested positive for cocaine in 1994, was fired, and underwent rehab in 1995 and the Union got him reinstated.
BTW, the joystick control handle is spring loaded, and releasing the handle returns it to the Service Brake position. He claimed that he passed out. When you pass out, your muscles relax. The handle should have been in the Brake position, not full Power.
BTW, the joystick control handle is spring loaded, and releasing the handle returns it to the Service Brake position. He claimed that he passed out. When you pass out, your muscles relax. The handle should have been in the Brake position, not full Power.
In which case, the medication had nothing to do with the accident; and his whole story is bogus. (I trust that the designer didn't place the joystick where an operator could lean against it if he passed out.)
Brake is far forward. Power is toward the operator. Release the handle, it springs forward to service brake. He had to hold it, why we will never know. Nobody from the MTA or NTSB got to question him at the scene, as he was taken to the hospital along with the injured passengers. He had time to make up any story he wanted to tell the investigators.
We have discussed this to death. The state politicians are getting involved, the NTSB is not happy and certain heads are going to roll at the MTA and in Light Rail management. The next session of the Maryland General Assembly is going to be interesting, and union heads of the ATU in Baltimore are not going to be 100% happy with the outcome.
The Media in Baltimore is not letting this die. All 5 TV stations mention the BWI wrecks every couple of days. The pols take notice.
The Media in Baltimore is not letting this die. All 5 TV stations mention the BWI wrecks every couple of days. The pols take notice.
Which is the way it should be. There are accidents and there are accidents. In other words, some mishaps are very difficult to prevent, while on the other extreme some mishaps are so easily avoidable it's absurd. It sounds to me as if both BWI incidents were much closer to the latter extreme.
That electric train fuel is interesting stuff, when you see it flowing. Nice to know that the flight attendant put her training to good use. When she waw blood she left everyone behind as she exited to save herself. Oh well at she she led the way to the exit. I think I will book a flight on Southwest.
I just saw on CNBC that a train of the Baltimore light rail system crashed at the airport,21 people were hurt. the report said it "seemed to be going to fast"
That was quite a while ago, the car involved was 5048 and the operator was fired for drug use. The car is still unrepaired and is under a tarp at the North Avenue yard of the MTA.
Contacts at North Avenue report that NTSB has not yet released it, and the shop has not yet determined what will be required to return it to service.
Track 1 at BWI Station is still out of service and no repairs have been made to either the track or the airport structure.
CNBC doesn't seem to be too timely if you just saw the item.
Just saw the item on our Channel 13 news. This is the second accident at the same location (BWI Airport). It occurred at 7:20 this morning, as car 5006 failed to slow and hit the end of track bumper on track 2, overiding it and winding up with its "A" end over the bumper and hitting the structure.
The operator was said by passengers to be operating "very strangely".
Betcha 3 to 1 that the operator will teat positive for drugs.
Does this mean that there will be no LRV service to BWI for the foreseeable future?
Yes. Both tracks are OOS until the track is repaired, new bumpers (which will not break loose when struck and force the vehicle upwards) installed and the air terminal roof overhang is repaired and the trolley wire rehung. Since the other track in BWI went OOS in February, don't expect to see LRV's in BWI until the middle of next year.
Currently, the BWI line is embargoed south of BWI Business Park. Bus Shuttles (which have to fight BWI terminal traffic) run from there to the Terminal.
08/23/2000
[Since the other track in BWI went OOS in February, don't expect to see LRV's in BWI until the middle of next year.]
Why so long? You mean it will take that long to make repairs so service can return? Is this Baltimore's own version of the Manhattan Bridge?
Bill "Newkirk"
No, but the Light Rail management is slow to react to anything, and quite rigid. We still run with an unchanging 17 minute headway, regardless of passenger needs. The NTSB told them to replace the bumpers in February, after the first wreck. They didn't, and #2 resulted in the exact same thing: The car ended up with it's nose punching the roof overhang and damaging the trolley deadend support beam.
The "next year" is my pessimistic assesment. It's now August, and Track One was never fixed from February.
1) The 17-minute headway can't be changed because of the single track sections, no matter how many people want to ride it. But, other than money to hire workers and buy track, the ROW is ready in all places for that second track; even the bridge over the Patapsco River is wide enough for a second track bed to be laid on it.
2) The MTA didn't say "the middle of next year". It said, not until they figure out both how to avoid crashes and how to prevent so much damage from hitting the bumper at the end wall. Apparently, according to the Sun, a new stronger bumper system was ordered after the first crash and it still hasn't arrived from the manufacturer.
3) Many passengers said the brakes sounded bad during the whole trip. The train slowed down in the BWI station then suddenly speeded up and crashed. Personally, I don't see why the bumper can't be 50 feet from the back wall.
I suppose that the reason the bumpers are so close to the terminal is a matter of convenience vs. safety. BWI passengers arriving via LRV from Baltimore probably want to be as close to the terminal as possible, to avoid dragging heavy suitcases around.
BTW, the Light Rail station is at the far end of the airport, right next to the new international terminal. For domestic flights, you still have to hoof it for several hundred feet, and, if you are departing from Terminal A (United Airlines, mainly), you have quite a long hike from the Light Rail to check in.
You have fallen for the Official MTA Light Rail Line. The infexible 17 minute headway used to be an inflexible 15 minute headway. Reason for the 2 minute increase? The Penn-BWI line.
When I say inflexible, I mean inflexible. It is NEVER varied for any reason. Want to see light rail absolutely fall apart? Watch the antics after an Oriole or Ravens game, when several thousand people descend on the platforms at the same time and then await trains that are already full of passengers and try to cram on. The platforms at Camden and Pratt Street wait up to 1 1/2 hours before they finally get on a train - in either direction. Ravens games are even better for total chaos - they only have 1 platform at Hamburg Street which is connected by a footbridge to the football palace that connects to both platforms. People backups of over 2 hours have been noted.
I personally have stood in a doorwell from Camden to Lutherville before I was able to get into the car and take a seat after Oriole games. Not once, but several times.
The pessimists among us predict that even when the Double Tracking project is completed, the line will still operate with a fixed, unchanging headway.
The management is so rigid that they will not even attempt to use the physical plant they have.
My goodness, when I got on the light rail to N. Linthicum after a baseball game at Pratt St a week ago Saturday, I had no problems at all. Even my 86-year-old mother-in-law got on easily. Maybe I am falling for their official line, but because of single tracking between Camden Yards and Linthicum, I actually accept that the MTA had to have spacing such that each branch requires 17 minutes of spacing. Two years ago I saw them double-tracking a section in that area so they could get up to 8the current 8.5 minute spacing on that section. I predict that when they double-track the whole line, which includes a few sections south of downtown and long stretches north of North Avenue, they will increase the frequency at times, but then again, I'm a wild-eyed optimist.
Noticed today that the tunnel walls of the new Manhattan-bound local tracks on the Queens IND, which were built to make room for the 63rd St. tunnel connection, have already been quite vandalized by graffiti "artists." I watched these tracks being built, and I can remember when these walls were clean. It's only been a little over a year. Sad.
I wonder if other portions of the subway (between stations) aren't equally or more graffiti-filled. Remember that this section is lit significantly brighter than most other subway sections (I thinks because of the temporary lights they're using.)
:)Andrew
There's graffiti on the wall of the 71 Avenue station and all throughout the Queens Blvd tunnel, what looks like a hand with 2 fingers up and a simley face.
Well what a shame. Unfortunately things from the "bad old days" of NYC are creeping back, even though they never really went away. The homeless and beggars were all over the place in Herald Square today.
Lately I've been sensing more of a "bad vibe" when I've been in the city lately.
Oh and Chinatown, double-yuck!! Used to like to hang out there but lately it's getting so dingy around there. Not to mention I had my share of beggars on the subway today, looks like those "tough" Guiliani policies have just caused the homelessness problem to get worse.
It sounds to me like the reason for the “bad old days” returning doesn’t have as much to do with our Mayor as it has to do with so-called “civil rights activists” who care more about the panhandlers etc., than about those whom they victimize.
>>> It sounds to me like the reason for the "bad old days" returning doesn't have as much to do with our Mayor as it has to do with so-called "civil rights activists" who care more about the panhandlers etc., than about those whom they victimize <<<
Wait a minute! Who is it that panhandlers victimize? Those who wish not to give just say no. What civil rights activists have done is protect the First Amendment rights of the indigent to announce that they are poor and need financial aid to survive. In a greater sense, if the poor can be kept out of sight and out of mind, how will the electorate know they are there, and have the legislature address the problems of the indigent.
Those who favor anti-panhandling laws usually point to "aggressive" panhandlers who get in one's face, and harass people rather than just ask for a handout. Laws can be passed that address this sort of behavior without outlawing all panhandling.
Los Angeles has plenty of people with their hands out asking for money, especially those at freeway off ramps with the "will work for food" signs, but virtually all approach in a respectful manner and will say "God Bless you" or "have a good day" even if you fail to give them anything. These people know that if they approach with any sort of threatening manner they will be arrested and charged with attempted robbery. There are virtually no "squeegee men" in Los Angeles, (except at self service gas stations) because they would be arrested for touching one's car without the owner's permission, or obstructing traffic.
This kind of enforcement respects the rights of the panhandlers and protects the public. And BTW, these are not the people generally responsible for graffiti.
Tom
[Wait a minute! Who is it that panhandlers victimize? Those who wish not to give just say no. What civil rights activists have done is protect the First Amendment rights of the indigent to announce that they are poor and need financial aid to survive. In a greater sense, if the poor can be kept out of sight and out of mind, how will the electorate know they are there, and have the legislature address the problems of the indigent.
Those who favor anti-panhandling laws usually point to "aggressive" panhandlers who get in one's face, and harass people rather than just ask for a handout. Laws can be passed that address this sort of behavior without outlawing all panhandling.]
You are being hopelessly naive if you really believe that beggars aren't sometimes dangerous. I've got a nice bridge to Brooklyn that I can sell you, real cheap ...
Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that beggars in fact are harmless, or at least that the "aggressive panhandling" laws will take care of such problems as might occur. If we're referring to the New York subway, which is where this thread began, begging is *still* a very bad influence even in the absence of physical dangers. It contributes to a menacing, lawless, Fort Apache image. At the very least, that image will scare off tourists and other persons; at the worst, it might embolden real criminals by letting them believe that anything goes.
Context is important. A woebegone beggar at a highway off-ramp is entirely different from a beggar in the crowded, no-escape confines of a subway car.
When a panhandler stands on the street, you can walk on by. When a panhandler makes a pitch in a subway car, you are a captive audience, and have no choice but to listen. It's no different than having subway cars play advertisements over the intercom.
Which reminds me, a conservative is someone who believes than telemarking is a free speech right and begging is a quality of life crime. A liberal is someone who wants to legalize pot and ban tobacco.
[Which reminds me, a conservative is someone who believes than telemarking is a free speech right and begging is a quality of life crime. A liberal is someone who wants to legalize pot and ban tobacco]
Let's see ... I'd like to ban telemarketing as well as begging, decriminalize (though not outright legalize) pot, and retain existing tobacco laws. What does that make me?
A libertarian...
Either that or a Progressive...
depends on who you ask.
Doug aka BMTman
>>> It's no different than having subway cars play advertisements over the intercom <<<
Shhh! Don't give the TA any ideas. :-)
Tom
Some beggars are polite, but most are rude, loud, and sometimes say curse words, especially when no one gives. And when you're stuck with a rude beggar in the 75 foot cars in an under-river tube or express run, you can't wait till you get out. Some of them are mentally ill and pose a danger to themselves and other people, such as in subway pushings.
Alot of the mentally ill homeless belong in hospitals, but since the city and state would rather put people at risk to save $$, the homeless are forced out on the streets.
That's a point that is often forgotten. Many of these people are mentally ill or mentally disabled, and couldn't hold down a job and apartment if their lives depended on it. There are responsible ways of housing these populations.
My wife worked at homes for mentally ill and developmentally diabled populations which were much, much better than the Willowbrook style institutions of the past. These homes stress the importance of the individual, and they focus on each member functioning (and in some cases even working) to their own personal best.
The places she worked prove that it is possible to handle this situation correctly, without Giuliani's bully tactics, but unfortunately there just aren't enough of these places (they all have waiting lists a mile long.) It's really just a matter of funding. There has to be more such houses, and they have to be way better staffed (my wife has horror stories about how they have left workers alone with some very dangerous clientel. Plus she has scars of her own.) But they're always ammong the first victims whenever it's time for a budget cut.
You can say that such programs are a waste of taxpayer money. But then you'd better be ready for more incidents of passengers being pushed in front of oncoming trains. It's a problem that will not disapear by itself.
Andrew
>>> If we're referring to the New York subway, which is where this thread began, begging is *still* a very bad influence even in the absence of physical dangers. It contributes to a menacing, lawless, Fort Apache image <<<
If the begging is non-aggressive, non-intimidating, it would not contribute to a "menacing, lawless, Fort Apache image". The main thing subway riders (or other begees) do not like, and beggars count on, is the feeling of guilt that the person has not done more to alleviate the conditions that put the beggar in such a position. (Yes, I know that some beggars are phonies who are not as poor as they seem and commute to their begging areas).
I assume from the post that I responded to that begging in the subways has been determined to be legal. I could certainly understand a law that prohibited begging on basis of crowded conditions during rush hours, and if police do not take action (with follow up by the courts) against aggressive panhandling, it quickly leads to conditions that led to the Goetz (sp?) case.
Enforcement would not be impossible. Any rider could report an aggressive panhandler to a C/R who could radio to control to have a plain clothes transit policeman board the train to observe the panhandling and make an arrest if warranted.
Tom
I am a conductor who has done this on many ocassions. I work the "E", "F", and "R" lines. And, yes I have seen all of this graffitti and it is getting worse on these Queens lines. Both are not related, but they do create an environment to the riding public that creates an impression that the quality of life is deteriorating. I have the plainclothes detectives riding with me late nights on the "R" shuttle looking for graffitti "Vandals". They also ride the "E" and "F" lines as well. One problem that they advised me of is that there are not enough of them. If they make an arrest, they are out of service at central booking- and when this happens, there are no replacement units assigned to cover this area. Other vandals have a free for all and are not caught. This happens almost every night since there are only one team of detectives for each line- the entire line! Lots of stations to cover, as well as trains- in imposible task!
As a conductor- I have gotten to know most of these detectives, and they know me well. I have had several disorderly passengers and youths taken off my trains. We have pulled into stations late at night on Queens Blvd where you can smell the wet spray paint and just missed these vandals. The stations department sends out paint crews to repaint vandalized areas every week. Sometimes the graffitti vandals are there as soon as the paint crew leaves- stations 36th street, Grand Avenue, Northern Blvd, 63rd Drive, 71-Continental, 75th Ave, and Van Wyck Blvd are the worst for this. The detectives are aware of this and are doing their best. Most of us conductors are also aware of this problem and we do watch late at night. Some of the detectives look worse than the passengers, some look like hoodlams, vandals and homeless people. Some like high school students.
This past Monday, I had 2 can collectors try to get on my "F" train at 5:30pm with huge Pathmark shopping carts! Rush hour, overcrowded train and these individuals pushing these carts into angry passangers who "wouldn't move out of THEIR way" I had to go and order these can collectors out of the doorway since they ignored my requests on the PA system and were delaying service. Fortunately, this incident did not get out of hand where police would have had to be contacted.
Only one of the stories that we have, most of us in RTO can write a book of our experiences- it would make interesting reading, and be up there in the best sellers!
interesting!!
Would video aid in capturing these vandals or would that rape them of some sort of constitutional rights??
How dangerous is your job doing the overnight shift and what are some of the more bizarre situations you have encountered? With your knowledge which are the most dangerous lines for these types of problemes late at night?
Marty.
I too have noticed an incerease in homeless and beggar presence in the subway. Unfortunatley there is not much we can do:
We call the police and they tell the person(s) to leave the system. They pack up and leave and so does the officer. An hour or so later they return and jump the turnstiles-- AGAIN! we call ther cops (again) and they are removed for a second time. Yes- after another hour or so they return and.....[yes- you guessed the rest of this sentence!]
Ther police should arrest these people but they dont. Some police officers actually befriend these people who stake out their spot in the station and return night after night and they refuse to do anything to remove their "homeless or beggar friend".
Not entirely blaming the mayor, just pointing out that he should be doing more to house the homeless and control the sky-high rents forcing people out of their homes.
Civil rights activists, especially those who bash the NYPD, are behind the "bad old days" returning. Most of these activists and media bash the NYPD. Most police officers in the NYPD have a job nobody wants, even for million dollars, but they do it for a hell of a lot less. I saw something like that in an ad on the subway yesterday, yet most people just take police for granted.
Police are asked to do things that other agencies should be doing. And since the transit police were merged, subway presence is now their job. But they are blamed for responding to a crime, or not responding to it. I wonder if NYC will ever get cleaned up. Mr.Al Sharpton and his pals are in a big way responsible because they don't let the police solve the city's crimes.
Not entirely blaming the mayor, just pointing out that he should be doing more to house the homeless and control the sky-high rents forcing people out of their homes.
He should be doing LESS. It's been pointed out in other threads that Soviet tactics only RAISED rents.
True. However, if you took a poll, you would find out that getting rid of rent regulation in this city is just slightly less popular than infanticide.
What took you so long?
Obviously, people don't want to get rid of rent regulation if it keeps their rents down at the cost of everyone else's. Just eliminate for all new leases.
Sorry about the delay. I'll try to be more prompt in the future.
The problem with vacancy de-regulation is that, as experience showed the last time it was tried in NYC, it creates an incentive for landlords to create more vacancies than would otherwise arise. I will leave the methods to your imagination.
As an alternative, why not de-regulate SI and see what happens?
>>> Most police officers in the NYPD have a job nobody wants, <<<
John;
I guess things have changed a lot since I lived in New York. Back then there were long waiting lists of men wanting to get on the job. There were gyms that specialized in preparing applicants for the physical test. When did this change?
Tom
Keystone Pete:
I'm not surprised at this whatsoever. The few times I ride the subways mowadays I often see graffiti in the tunnels.
BMTJeff
Keystone Pete:
I'm not surprised at this whatsoever. The few times I ride the subways nowadays I often see graffiti in the tunnels.
BMTJeff
I was on a redbird #2 last Sunday, the front car had been tagged. Maybe they're deferrimg maintenance since thsoe cars will be retired....
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's not just there. On any line, you can see graffiti in the tunnels. A recurring hit is the large block letters MADR and REVSOUP. One other I always see (and can't believe that someone would have the time to do this) is a large area of the tunnel wall spraypainted in white, and then a story on this area in black paint. Some of these hits (or tags, I guess they're called) even start with "Chapter xx" where xx is some number!!
--Mark
We can go back to that debate from 2 or 3 months ago. Is it art or is it a crime. HAHAHAHA.
Those who actually spend time effort energy and even risk their lives in doing this no doubt believe it is art. For us SUBTALK fansit is an intrusion in our world and we take it personally.
I've always wondered why they hit or tag the transit system. I guess it's for high visibility. It would be interesting to get one of these people online and get their perspective of it.
What is sad is that some of the older car types went to scrap splattered with graffiti. At the risk of sounding corny, meeting their end in that condition seems undignified to me. Trains are trains, not artist canvases! I wish there had been another way or means for these people to express themselves.
Maybe the Parks Dept. should erect some walls in the parks for the purpose. They could hold periodic reviews of the quality, saving the good stuff and whitewashing the rest.
Those long stories I believe are done during GOs where that tunnel is unused. The 63rd st. to B'way and 6ave tunnels both have lots of grafitti because most of the time one of the two are unused.
Are xecurity cameras available that use RF links rather than cable? I wonder how many "artists use the system as their canvas? If it's only a few dozen, might be worth the bother of going after them.
I am playing around with the Microsoft Terraserver (terraserver.microsoft.com) and I pulled up some really good subfan pictures.
69th St. Terminal in Upper Darby showing MFL, Rt. 100, busses, M3 cars in the yard and Rt. 101/102 trolley
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2389&Y=22118&Z=18&W=2
The SEPTA wayne junction complex.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2430&Y=22148&Z=18&W=2
Broad St. Line Fern Rock complex
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2441&Y=22161&Z=18&W=2
PATCO Lindenwold Shops
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2501&Y=22045&Z=18&W=2
SEPTA Frankford Terminal
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2466&Y=22152&Z=18&W=2
30th St. Station
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2421&Y=22115&Z=18&W=2
The terraserver is a great railfanning tool and can help you find parking, hot photo locations and gives you a birds eye view into that forbidden yard.
[The terraserver is a great railfanning tool and can help you find parking, hot photo locations and gives you a birds eye view into
that forbidden yard.]
Terraserver images can be a bit slow to load. I'd recommend getting something to read while you're waiting. If you're a reasonably fast reader, in the time it takes a typical image to load you should be able to polish off _Moby Dick_ or maybe _War and Peace_.
I got three letters for you: D S L. :) Much more tolerable at 784kbps...
-Dave
[I got three letters for you: D S L. :) Much more tolerable at 784kbps...]
Unfortunately, DSL's not available where we are. Even though it's a typical suburban 'hood, not out in the boondocks or anything, our house is too far from the closest telephone switching office. IIRC, the limit's something like 14,000 feet, measured by "wire run" distance.
We have been considering a cable modem, so maybe that'll be the way we end up going.
I can go you one better:
Corporate T1 :)
-Hank
I was looking them up at the University of Pennsylvania cause my 56k at home can't handle it. Still if you can get them to load the pics are well worth it. It's 39 inch resolution.
I know, I looked for my house :)
-Hank
Microsoft: We know where you went today. We also know where you live.
http://www.dutchsprings.com/vehicles_subm.html#26
this is a quarry in Allentown PA used for SCUBA diving and this trolly is sitting on the bottom of it
Wonder if anyone has pictures of the H&M K cars forming an artificial reef off the NJ coast .... that would be pretty cool. I hgeard they're holding up quite well.
--Mark
Wonder if anyone has pictures of the H&M K cars forming an artificial reef off the NJ coast .... that would be pretty cool. I heard they're holding up quite well.
--Mark
Today I was on the "F" line and when the train pulls into Avenue N I notice a strange thing that was layup on the middle track a R62 train with yellow labels under the numbers and all the rollsigns were marked with #6 except the fronthead signs in each end were marked "NOT IN SERVICE" the train was carrying workman could some body explain what was the R62 was doing on that line?
Maybe that could've been an R-127 or R-134. They look just like R-62's except they have no windows. That's what U might have seen.
I live right there, They have been there every weekday from 9AM till 2PM for the last two weeks. They are doing brake tests. Running them full speed through red signals and measuring the stopping distance. Every six months or so there is a different type of car up there being tested.
-Mark
I saw a yellow work train (looked like old redbirds, but yellow) coming through Grand street going north, all windows on the train were open, even the rear storm door.
I didn't think that R-62's were able to run on IND trackage, but I guess since the shop's right around the corner, that would be the best place for brake tests and such.
All trackage is built to the same specifications, despite the difference in car width.
What about the position of the trip arms?
You are correct. The trip-arm layup is different. However, someone on the post addressed that issue, but I can't remember who. They claimed that they install temporary trip arms. Can anyone else help KMA?
Thanks. I came across the other post after reading this part of the thread.
There's is a restriction, that is they don't have the proper trip cocks positioned for the B Division Signals. So they can easily bypass those signals and not be thrown into emergency. Should an A Division car transverse the B Division and is not equipped to operate with signal protection, the assistance of a car class from the B Divison is enlisted (such as R-32s on the ends of the consist with R-62s in the middle), unless it's a piece of work equipment that can ply both divisions easily. There is of course Flushing R-33 Singles which can also run on both divisions with ease, but aren't always available.
Since a test was in progress, running A Division Cars with no protection was not an issue.
-Stef
But the test was supposedly to trip the brakes at a red signal. How would they perform this test then?
A portable tripper at a designated location.
Maybe they are puting the second trip arm on them to get them ready to run on the #7. The #7 cars come into Coney Island Shop for major work. So they might just be starting to get them ready now so they can just go into service as the Red Birds are retirded off the #7. I have seen them in Coney Island yard for about a week as I went over is on the Belt Parkway and did not think nothing of it.
Robert
Plus, just to get the cars to the 7 they need to go over B div. trackage.
I still have a problem with them moving the R62's to Ave N for the test, this is Revenue Track they are using and without trip protection to and from the test sight.
I'm like TA supervisors, don't trust the T/O's!
Since this was in the middle of the day, it is not a problem. M Track on the Culver is not normally used for Revenue service, so they block and clamp the switch N of 18 Ave to stop SB access and do the same for the switch N of Kings Hway to stop NB access. When its time to go home, they reset the switch at K ings Hway and the train goes down M track to Ave X and then into the Yard.
As for the tripping "problem" -- all IRT cars will go into emergency if they overrun a red signal in the B div. The problem comes from the fact that they do it 50 ft after they should, since it will be the trip cock at the opposite end if the car that will be activated. This cuts down on the effective stopping distance, making it a no-no.
And now a question for Lou - if you don't trust us, do you actually ride on the system?
Won't the tripper go down once the first truck is in the signal block?
Have you ever wondered whay would happen when an train of R142 cars gets assigned to the 2 line during the early morning hours when it runs local between 96th and Chambers Streets? What is the R142 capable of?
I got the e-mail, and the attachment translated so I will look into getting some of those photos identified for you. I switched ISP's and am phasing out aol which is why it took so long for me to get back to you(and I don't have your e-mail address handy but I figured you would read this before I forget to reply)
I'm here, was just taking a quick look before signing off for the day.
I've sent you a off line e-mail to new address, hope it arrives OK.
Mr t__:^)
I was just at 69th St. terminal collecting information for my diagrams. Trains arrive on track 1, which is not fare controled, round a loop and arrive on the track 2/3 island platform. I got off the train, snapped some pics as it rounded the loop and then walked through the terminal to get on a eastbound. Well I walked down to the east end of the platform to describe the interlocking signals there. I turned around and some SEPTA looking was staring at me. I walk over and he was like "are you taking pics for an art project". I lied and said yes. Just them some other SEPTA guy said "some kids are on the track. I looked over off the end of the platform and 3 8-year old kids were crossing over from the non-fare control platform accross 2 700 VDC electrified tracks. The SEPTA guy started yelling "Hey! Hey! Hey!" and the kids turned and went back accross the tracks. Several times I saw a kid reach down and lay his hand on top of the under contact 3rd rail to vault over it. I'm sorry I didn't snap a picture of those MORON kids or record the guy yelling "Hey!" about 20 times. I looked in the cab window to see if Heypaul's face would appear, but contrary to the legend it did not.
Look on the bright side. If the savages had gotten fried on the third rail, it would have been hilarious, it would have made a great picture, and it would have prevented them from having savage, animal kids of there own in 4 years. I know I'm a little bitter, but I hate when railroads get blamed for the accidents others cause. Where were the parents? Probably making more animals in their bed at home.
[I hate when railroads get blamed for the accidents others cause.]
You'll probably find general agreement in this group. However, the question does arise: To what degree are railroads and transit agencies responsible for protecting people from their own stupidity? How many warning signs (in how many languages) are sufficient? How many barriers are needed (or possible - e.g. at a grade crossing)?
While I don't like the idea of putting a dollar value on human life, no railroad or agency should have to bankrupt itself in the name of safety. Of course, measures should always be in place to prevent trespassing, but only up to a particular degree of reasonableness - beyond that, people should be responsible for their own actions.
Well said, Gotham! :)
[How many warning signs (in how many languages) are sufficient? How many barriers are needed (or possible - e.g. at a grade crossing)?]
Some years ago in Philly kids climbed onto the roof of a boxcar on Conrail and one touched the catenary and got fried. His parents successfully sued CR. Amtrak/Conrail had to fence in all of the electrified track in Philly that could have standing freight cars under catenary. After the fencing was completed, a kid jumped off a street bridge onto the roof of a boxcar and got fried upon touching the catenary. Conrail had to pay that kid's parents, too.
I would truly be disgusted if there was an attempt made at extending this idea to include fencing off SEPTA streetcar track, where it runs on the surface. Streetcars use a charged overhead wire as well, and some kid could always try climbing on the roof of a streetcar to be mischevious.
-Robert King
No one has tried that in Denver yet, AFAIK. The private ROW portion of the light rail line is fenced off.
Kids (even stupid ones) can't climb on top of a PCC or LRV/CLRV due to the fact that the roof steps only have the upper ones mounted, the two lower steps are usually in the #1 dash cabinet, which is under the control of the operator.
Do you know what they are building in the tunnel of the 1,2,3,9 lines like 20 feet north of the north end of the station. I was looking out the front of the 2 and it's almost done, and its empty large and it looks like a dectective negotiation room.
-Clayton Parker-
What do detectives negotiate? I assume you mean interrogate. BTW, how do you know what an interrogation room looks like?
Don't have a TV?
I suppose it's possible that Hollywood got it right.
While watching pre-dawn freight traffic near the Jessup,MD, vehicle-unloading yard on the Camden line yesterday, I saw a southbound freight train of mixed cars at about 4:00 a.m. The last car on the train, carrying the portable tail light, was a very small, rather flat, solid car, not very high except for a somewhat square hump in the middle. Painted on this car were the words Test Car; also painted on the car in larger letters were the words quote Do Not Rump unquote. Anyone know what this expression means? The dictionary does not give rump as a verb form, and the most obvious meaning seems to be contradicted by its place on the train.
It originly said "DO NOT HUMP". Some joker in the shop probably added the 'R' part. For those of you who don't know large feight yards have a hill at one or both ends called a hump. Trains are pushed up the hump and as a car gets to the top the coupler pin is pulled and the car is sent rolling down into the yard along a computer slected route where adds its self to the end of a new train (thump). Some cars are so long and inflexable (or heavy or fragile) that they would derail if pushed over a yard hump and therefore they have the word DO NOT HUMP painted all over them.
I've seen only one of those "Do Not Hump" signs: I kid you not, it was on an Amtrak sleeper car! That sent a few thoughts through my head. :)
LOL
Could be worse....
Do Not Rump Hump :)
-Hank
yes well i don't think that would stop any. At least not my friends who hump in the back of LRVs...
I'm sure Amtrak would be shocked at the number of times sodomy has occured on their overnight trains. Of course the majority is probably young male/female couples but probably some gays too
OK, that's worth a rim shot.
I've seen these letters written on crates delivered to the Keyspan Glenwood power plant.
And the big transformer there too - in fact, I believe the sign is still on that thing.
Yes, it is.
Um, normaly the pin is pulled before the car moves, when the Hump Engine brakes (no train line air here) the car keeps moving over the hump into the classification yard. The Tower sets the switches and the car goes to the right area of the yard, and you've split up and classifed all your cars for their next move.
Railroads are getting rid of hump yards, mostly due to lading damage and increasing use of both unit trains as well of great numbers of cars that are not humpable.
In Baltimore, both ConRail and B&O/CSX have removed all the hump yards in the area.
They might be getting rid of some, but as long as mixed manifest trains exist and as long as there are seperate local and long distance trains humpyards will be the best way to get cars where they need to be.
Don't think so. I read somewhere a while back that hump yards were responsible for something like 35% of all freight damage claims.
Cushion underframe and HAZMAT cars cannot be humped, plus older retarders can't handle TOFC flats or articulated cars, and many other modern cars that postdated the hump yard.
ConRail eliminated the hump from the former PRR Bayview Yard in the 1980's, CSX took humps out of many of their Baltimore Division yards in the late 80's and early 90's and many others all over the system.
Like the 0-8-0 and the caboose, it's fast becoming a vanished part of the railroad scene.
I don't know if it's a hump yard, but I saw a freight accident last
week in the Readville yard, just off the North East Corridor main
line -- about 10 miles south of Boston.
One car had split a switch, and the car next to it was "tipsy" about 30 degrees over resting on a car on the adjoining track. A crane was in position to right things as I went by.
But flat switching takes so much time. If trains ever want to compete with trucks for carload and several carload merchandise freight hump yards are the only way that cars will get where they need to be in less than a month. I am fairly sure that they still have humps in Canden Pavonia, Allentown, Enola, Selkirk and Conway.
a brand new hump yard was built within the last few years on the Santa Fe (just before BNSF merger) somewhere in the southwest...
>>"somewhere in the southwest... "
*that* ought to help the folks in Brooklyn!
Elias
The legal departments of the railroads got tired of litigating hump damage claims and the financial departments got tired of paying the claims.
Enola Yard is a shadow of it's PRR status. The humps are gone, and 60% of the tracks are vanished. Same for Conway. Allentown is dead, like the Bethlehem Steel plant it served. Check your local yard - chances are if it had a hump, it's gone. If it didn't, it may not even be there.
Unit trains and double stacks are the game today. Coal goes from mine to ship or mine to power plant or mine to steel mill. Freight trains run from terminal to terminal with the same road power on the point, the trains only pause for crew changes and refueling.
Railroading has changed since 1980.
also painted on the car in larger letters were the words quote Do Not Rump unquote.
You're writing, not talking.
Most likely, that was a scale test car. It is certified to weigh a specific amount, and is used to test scales. The 'Do Not Rump' is probably some grafitti on the 'Do Not Hump' markings, because the car is either too long or too heavy to roll into a hump calssification yard.
-Hank
The car is actually rather short, as he described it. But it is sensitive to jostling, hence the "DO NOT HUMP" markings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just think, "Thomas The Tank Engine" goes porno.
*********************ATTENTION*************************************
FOR ALL THOSE INTERESTED, THE SECOND VOLUME OF TWELVE HISTORICAL NEW YORK CITY STREET AND TRANSIT MAPS IS DUE OUT ON NOVEMBER 1, 2000,
PLEASE WRITE TO THE PUBLISHER FOR MORE INFORMATION:
H&M PRODUCTIONS II, INC
P.O. BOX 640696
OAKLAND GARDENS, NY 11364-0696
What will the 2nd edition have that was not in the first?
12 more maps. 1847 to 1939. Including Board of Transportation/City of New York Planning Commission Map for the Expansion of the Rapid Transit Railroad Facilities which shows the Morningside Ave route (the two abandoned tail tracks north of the 57th St Station on the N/R.) That's enough info for now.
What about interesting road maps? What is notable there?
Anything about Southern Brooklyn 100 years ago, or Manhattan 200?
The second volume is 1847 to 1939 with a nice Brooklyn Daily Eagle map from 1897. This is a transit related book and 200 years ago in Manhattan is not within its scope.
If it's a transit related book, then why is STREET in the name?
Forget it. Sorry I even answered your first posting.
If you are going to sell a book with twelve transit maps, then call it that. I wouldn't want to buy a book expecting street maps to be inside and being disappointed.
I guess that's how you get sales, getting people to purchase something they otherwise wouldn't want through misrepresentation.
What did your first book have anyway?
Under no circumstances do I want you to buy either Volume 1 or Volume 2 when it comes out.
Don't worry, as long as your in the process, I will not be purchasing any of your books.
What a loser you are.
Not quite sure who lost *that* one.
I am interested in old subway maps, and I was interested in knowing what was in volume one too.
Oh Well.....
Elias
Volume 1 is 12 maps of NYC from 1860 to 1967. A very very nice full color reproduction set of NYC subway & transit related maps. Read about it under the Maps section on BMT-Lines.com or order it from HandMProductionsbooks.com If you like NYC transit related maps this is the book for you.
Is it on sale now?
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, not until November first via the publisher:
H&M Productions II, inc
P.O. Box 640696
Oakland Gardens, NY 11364-0696
Write to them and ask them to send you their flyer when it is available. If you have Volume 1 you will really enjoy Volume 2.
I have volume 1, which I've spent hours pouring over. I really liked the text commentary accompanying each map, but I wish each 'caption' had been more extensive. There's prob'ly much more to be said about each map.
Thanks for the kind words. Please keep in mind space was limited, it was a first time venture, and we had no idea if it was going to be a flop or not. 14,000+ copies later we were very pleased. The second volume will be in boxed set form with a pamphlet inside with the stories. I am sure you will like it if you liked volume one. I tried to be informative as well as entertaining in my writing and I think I was successful. But like any venture you try to better yourself each time out. I believe Volume 2 is written better. I have taken the liberty to send you one of the stories from volume 2 to prove my point. Keep in mind the story is not the star. The map is the star. The story is there not to point out, but rather to start the reader on their way.
**********************************************************************
1892 MAP OF THE CITY & COUNTY OF NEW YORK SHOWING ROUTES AND STATIONS OF THE ELEVATED RAILROADS
When it came to detailed maps of the City of New York from the late 1800’s, the G.W. & C.B. Colton & Company map makers were simply the best at their craft. The detail is as precise as possible. Certainly too big to carry around, this map could be found at libraries and at educational facilities. A true treasure to explore.
The four Manhattan elevated lines are shown and their stations clearly marked. The four elevated shuttles at 34th Street, 42nd Street, 58th Street and Willis Avenue are all represented. Transit related maps showing the Willis Avenue shuttle are rare because this service was shown on only the most detailed of maps and was gone by 1924. There are several red line provisions to extend or branch off existing elevated lines. The most interesting one is East 129th Street off the 3rd Avenue EL to West 135th Street on the 9th Avenue EL. This extension never got off the drawing board.
The Ninth and Sixth Avenue EL’s are shown terminating at 155th Street. Further extension to the Jerome Avenue line in the Bronx was not established until 1918. The New York & Northern Railroad is shown as continuing north of 155th Street. This route is considered the precursor to the Putnam Division of the New York Central. The Suburban Branch section shown on this map became part of the Manhattan Railway Company in 1891. Through service from the 3rd Avenue EL was established in 1896. On this route the Wendover Avenue station changed its name to Claremont Parkway circa 1915. A red line extension provision is shown on this line north of the Tremont Avenue terminal running alongside the New York Central & Hudson River Railroad in the Fordham section. This extension was realized, but the line was first extended to Fordham Road in 1901, to Bronx Park in 1902 and then onto Gun Hill Road on the White Plains Road line in 1920. Notice the spur off this line to the old horserace track at Jerome Park.
In New Jersey we find extensive freight trackage along with stations for the Central Railroad of New Jersey on the waterfront. At this time barges carrying freight cars crossed the Hudson River many times a day. Today such a move is a rarity. The New York Central’s Westside Division is shown hugging the water’s edge along 12th Avenue to West 30th Street. A proposal to build the New York and Long Island Bridge is shown coming off the eastside between 76 and 77th Streets. This would later be moved down to 59th Street and renamed the Queensborough Bridge. The islands in the East River, Blackwell’s, Ward’s and Randall’s are all shown prior to the landfill projects which occurred at a later date. The landfill proposal outlines are shown surrounding each island. Of particular interest is the very most northern tip of Manhattan. It is shown prior to the massive dredging which opened up the Harlem River as a major conduit to the Hudson. The New York Central Railroad had to make a long loop behind Marble Hill prior to the dredging. Afterwards the railroad re-laid tracks right long the base of the newly opened waterway.
An incredible proposal by the Pennsylvania Railroad to build a bridge from the westside of Manhattan to New Jersey at the foot of West 71st Street is shown. The extra-long ramp to this bridge would have run down 11th Avenue all the way to 42nd Street. Steam engines and horse-drawn vehicles in use at the time could have utilized this slow escalation in grade rather than push both to the limit by a much quicker and steeper grade incline. Referred to as the New York & New Jersey Bridge, its plans were to cross the Hudson River to North Hoboken. Of course the bridge never materialized at that location, namely because the P.R.R. was hoping to have other New Jersey rail roads join up in an effort to build a union station in Manhattan and lessen the financial burden which was estimated at over 100 million dollars – a huge sum for that period of time. It would be some forty years before the George Washington Bridge would be built from the Washington Heights section of northern Manhattan to Fort Lee, New Jersey. One could only imagine with the enormous traffic congestion over the George Washington Bridge today, what it might have been like had the bridge pictured on this map at West 71st Street become a reality.
**********************************************************************
Hope this explains it a little better and if you're at the November ERA meeting in NYC I'd be glad to sign your copy.
Quite interesting, and the details mean that there are streets on it.
It's too bad you have to be such an ass, otherwise I would have bought the book even for that one map.
Will there be anything posted to the H&M Productions II website about this? I was just there the other day (and goddammit, I can't rermember the URL!!) and didn't see anything about it.
--Mark
Not yet. If you need copies of any maps from Volume 1 they are available via H&M's website. I can not remember the URL either, but if you go to BMT-Lines.com and click on "Maps" and scroll down you will find a picture of Volume 1 and a hyperlink sending you to H&M's website. Volume 2 promises to be better than Volume 1. 1847 to 1939 including a full-color 1939 Board of Trans. map showing expansion of the subway and elevated routes. This map is the only one I have ever seen showing the Morningside Ave route. That route was the one that was to utilize the two abandoned tail tracks against the wall at the north end of the Broadway and 57th Street station. Today the N/R slide right past these two severed tunnels and almost nobody knows anything about them. Futhermore the same map shows a connection to the Rockaway line off 63rd drive station. Provision for this connection is still in the wall today at the northend of the 63rd Drive station but was never put into use because at the time the Rockaway line was LIRR operated. I am very excited about this second volume.
Here's the url -
http://www.handmproductionsbooks.com/
Thanks, Dan.
--Mark
Today the N/R slide right past these two severed tunnels and almost nobody knows anything about them.
Ahh, but SubTalker's do :)
I have them mentioned in my History of the IND right on this site.
--Mark
Hey Mark, Great job on the IND article. I'm also interested in ordering a few of your videos-will send out an order to you in a week or so.
Marc
That's where the "almost" part comes in.:-)
"Almost part"? What do you mean?
Now I see what the "almost" means
I've looked at the webpage (Here's a link) and the ToC for the first edition book, and there does seem to be enough street focus to allow that to be in it's name.
I look forward to seeing what's inside the second edition.
I'm so glad I have your permission to use the word "street" in the title. Had I not secured your approval I would have immediately called the printer and halted production.
I don't need your attitude, I just don't like it when books have titles that mislead their actual focus. Your book is not like that as I have discovered. Instead of thanking me or saying nothing, especially after I expressed interest, YOU GIVE ME ATTITUDE.
I don't care about your stupid book and it is clear now that I'm not buying it, unless I am sure that you don't make a single cent of off it.
Please get a life.
hey the nx, cool name. haven't seen u on this board before
Tne NX is indeed a cool name and it was an ultra cool line back in 1967. How could anybody saying anything bad about a line that utilized Stillwell Avenue as a regular stop rather than a terminal?
yeah. probably the main reason it failed was because the Brighton/Sheepshead people had so long though of Stillwell as farther away from New York, there was probably a mindset that there's no point in getting on a train going the "wrong way" which would explain why ridershiup was relatively low while the slower Brighton Express prospered. Or at least that's my theory...
From everything I have been able to dig up on the NX the reason it died was because (and would you believe this it did not make enough stops and people shunned its use, I believe it was 14 stops from Brighton Beach to 57th St. This could surely could have been referred to as a "SUPER EXPRESS."
*******************************ATTENTION******************************
FOR ALL THOSE WHO ENJOYED VOLUME ONE OF TWELVE HISTORICAL NEW YORK CITY STREET AND TRANSIT MAPS 1860 TO 1967, H&M PRODUCTIONS II IS PROUD TO ANNOUNCE THAT TWELVE HISTORICAL NEW YORK CITY STREET AND TRANSIT MAPS VOLUME 2 1847 TO 1939 IS DUE FOR RELEASE NOVEMBER 1ST.
PLEASE CONTINUE TO CHECK THE HandMProductionsbooks.com for more details.
**********************************************************************
On November 5, 2000 there will be a slite service changes that will take place in the B Division. B Trains will be going to 145 Street all day except Midnight hours and rushours during weekdays and all day except midnight hours on weekends. After the Q Service ends on the P.M.'s on weekdays and all day on weekends Aa Shuttle Train will be operating from 21 Street and 34 Street/Broadway bypassing 49 Street Station and terminating and orginating from the Downtown Express Track at 34 Street/Broadway. 57 Street/6 Avenue Station will be closed when the Q Service ends. There will also be times when there will be no Shuttle service at all. This is to allow work trains to go into the Queens Line Connection and work to install and connect signals. More Service changes are planned for sometime between sometime after January 1,2001 and Presidents Day in February I will try to post it as soon as I know for sure.
Looks like they are getting close. Perhaps the opening of the 63rd St tunnel will coincide with the closing of the A/B tracks, eliminating the need for an interim arrangement.
Well, they did re-open the north side tracks at the same time they opened the new Archer Ave. connection. They also took that opportunity to re-open the Brighton express tracksand make other significant service changes. The morning of 12/13/88 was quite confusing if you happened to ride a B division train to/from work.
Not as confusing as the first day of the Christie Street opening in 67
Perhaps, but those changes were concentrated in southern Brooklyn. The December 11th, 1988 changes were spread out all over Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Nothing will ever top the opening of the Chrystie St. connection in terms of sheer, total chaos. Nobody, but nobody knew what was going on.
It was pretty much the same on 12/13/88, especially for E train riders who wanted to get to 179th St. And Z trains ran almost empty because many people had no idea what the new line was. Many people got caught when they realized the J now skipped their stop and they had to backtrack. This despite the fact that new maps detailing all the changes were put in all subway cars before Veteran's day, and weeks of TV, radio and newspaper ads defining the changes, as well as brochures given out EVERYWHERE you turned.
I'm not saying Chrystie St. wasn't less chaotic, but I'm saying the 12/13/88 changes were as chaotic as any made since.
So that's why the Transit Digest I got at the museum for that time had the "System Map and Service Guide for December 11th Changes." The magazine only mentions the Archer Ave extension opening!
Maybe the fall pick will be a short one. Thanks for the info.
Could you explain the term "pick" for the unenlightened, please? :o)
The TA posts the jobs, the workers "pick" them along with their days off on the basis of seniority.
Is there a limit on the amount of jobs one can pick? In other words, is it possible that the younger T/Os could be out-of-work with the more senior T/Os working overtime? Also, given the fact that it may take years to build up enough seniority to be able to pick the most desirable runs, does this discourage younger "talent" from applying for jobs with the TA? For example, if I, who has no experince whatsoever in railroading, wanted to work for the MTA, how long before I could become a T/O, supposing that this is the most sought-after non-management job the MTA has to offer? (Hypothetical, of course.)
Job picks in RTO more or less parallel service changes and adjustments - for good reason. It saves money. In other operating divisions such as Car Equipment, the general rule is 2 picks per year. This allows for an orderly refilling of vacated jobs and jobs created through necessity.
As for how many jobs do you pick - it's basic math. You select and prioritize a number of jobs equal to your seniority number. For example, if you are car inspector #201 and you list 200 jobs you want, you may not get one of them (if the 200 people in front of you pick them). If youselect 201 jobs, you know only 200 of them can be picked so you'll get one of your choices. Of course, if you are #1000, you usually wait until the day before you pick and see what's left. There's a lot to be said about seniority.
Twice a year there is a pick. We go to the Pick Room (at 42nd and 8th) an hour before our appointment (Based on seniority).
All jobs are posted on the wallsd of the room and we can pick any open job.
We can pick:
5 day-- we work that booth for all 5 days (afternoons or nights)
Vacation relief-- we work for people who are on vacation.
RDO-- we work the job when the regular person is off. Example: The S/A (Station Agent) at a station is off Tuesday and Wednesday. Someone ahs to work that station those days.
RDO pick is done after the regular pick. All available jobs are posted by day and you pick any available job.
Lunch relief-- You cover a series of booths for the S/A while trhey are at lunch. a LR job often opens or closes gates and can open a part-time booth.
(yes- there is Lunch RDO where you work a different LR each day.)
At each pick we can change our pay location (Where we get our paychecks) and select our RDOs(Regular Days Off) from what is left when we pick.
During the Winter pick--Usually in October or so, we select our vacations for the next year based on what is available when we pick.
While im my trip to Drye Ave to snap some Red(Rust)birds & some R142 cars. When i was at 180th St Station waiting for #5 line to Drye Ave & i saw R142 Bombardier into stop but one problem there is only one set of R142 #6310-#6306 & they open the wrong side of door. I was thinking my self that look like Bombardier have to reset the clock again. What is going on with R142 Bombardier cars?
Peace Out
David Justininao
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
BTW: I saw R142 Kawasaki #7231-#7235 not coupler with #7236-#7240 on Track #19 at Unionport Yard & i snap few of them.
BOMBARDIER IS CRAP I TELL YA CRAP! <~~~~My opinion based upon how many times Bombarider's 30 day clock has been reset against Kawasaki's 30 day clock!
Trevor Logan
'They' opened the wrong set of doors? Who is 'they'? The train doors don't open themselves, IIRC. This sounds like human error, not a mechanical failure. Sorry to bring this up again, but putting together a decent sentence would help to make you understood.
-Hank
Hank: There were no passerger in the cars & they have mechanical failure on the doors. BTW: you don't need to say sorry to me & i understand that.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
BTW: I just got a call from MaBSTOA B/O to interview middle of next month.
Your previous post indicated that they doors opened on the wrong side at a station, if I understand you right. Unless they opened themselves, and I'm pretty sure they don't, that's not a mechanical failure, that's human error. Now if you're saying the doors were stuck open, or the train was in motion with the doors open, that could be a mechanical failure.
-Hank
The doors opened on the wrong side for making simulated stops. If they opened on the right side, people would board.
The doors are being opened on the "wrong side" intentionally as part of the pre-public test program.
Todd, are you still in town lately? I thought I heard you on the radio a day or two back. Eric and I are getting a day set up to come up to Kennebunkport this summer. Also let me know if you are visiting the Flushing Line anytime soon.
My reports on WCBS Tuesday morning were from my home in Boston by RADIO MAGIC.
But I hope you and Erik... and other SubTalkers can visit Seashore. Remember, our season goes through September and into early October. That part of the year can be much nicer to visit Maine, since the major tourist season is over and the weather is cooler.
Hey I've heard that the weather in Maine has been extremely cool
and wet this summer season.
Hank Eisenstein:
I'm not aware of any problems with the Bombardier R-142 subway cars. If there are please let me know about them.
BMTJeff
A number of Train Operators have told me that the braking system on the R-68A's are terrible, since they have been changed to e-cam and that they are very hard to stop. If you're a Train Operator and you agree, or feel that you have mastered the braking system, please post your response here at subtalk and also on my Transit Talk Bulletin Board. Maybe you can help a fellow employee better understand the nuances of the R-68A braking system.
heypaul has been noticably absent from the SubTalk/BusTalk boards as of late.
Anyone know what has become of our resident R-9 cab owner?
I hope he has not met with foul play...
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe that's why his face didn't appear in the M-4 cab window after that guy said "Hey" 20 times. Not because the legend isn't true, Heypaul's just on vcation from all his haunting duties.
heypaul is returning tonight from Niagara Falls where he went to make some math calculations.
He is contemplating going over the Falls in his R-9 cab sometime in the near future, and wanted to verify his figures first!
LOL!
I can personally attest to heypauls not playing with ducks. With the exception of rubber ducks, and thats only on Saterday nights.
I believe he is off on another adventure involving the ever evil
"KINGFISH" ARCHDUKE of DOOM
So rule out foul play!
avid
last reports had him seagull watching. I think he has taken a tern for the worse
hiya... awol might be a good way of describing my situation... away with out laughing... before i started my 29+ hour greyhound bus ride to florida on wednesday, i found myself bored with subtalk... maybe this was a natural let down after the sunday times article, after the get together on august 5th over my apartment, and after a difficult period here on subtalk involving myself, train dude, and a few others...
it's been about almost a year since i first started here at subtalk with my own webtv terminal... i have kept a bunch of my funnier posts and when i look at them i am amazed at some of the screwiness that has come out of my head...
i am in sort of a quiet spell, or perhaps i am more self absorbed with my own anxieties about travelling up and back on the bus and in trying to act sociable with my family...
anyway, thanks for bringing up my favorite topic, me... i will be floating around here either looking for answers to some things i had questions about, or waiting for the inspiration to make some strange observations...
"perhaps i am more self absorbed with my own anxieties about travelling up and back on the bus"
Florida by bus? I've been to Florida 30+ times in the last 5 years.
Twice by Autotrain.
Twice by car.
Once by motorcycle.
The rest by plane.
By bus? Guess it's more than comedy we disagree about.
"i found myself bored with subtalk... maybe this was a natural let down after the sunday times article, after the get together on august 5th over my apartment, and after a difficult period here on subtalk involving myself, train dude, and a few others... "
In all seriousness, you're like the salt in a recipe. I know you don't do a damn bit of good for my health but it's just not the same without you. And although you annoy the S#!% out of me sometimes, you are missed.
That's so touching,...(sniff) I think I have to... go and get a hanky...
You need more than a hanky, Doug.
steve... you said: "I've been to Florida 30+ times in the last 5 years." wow... that is an awful lot of times in a short period of time...
i've probably come down here 30 times in the last 30 years... 3 or 4 times i drove down alone, usually in an older car with 100k+ miles... ( this trip i started on my 10 speed bike, but discovered that i couldn't go over the verrazano bridge )... and the rest of the times it has been greyhound... my anxieties are moderated by a very real interest in greyhound and its operations, which is actually more of an interest lately than the subways...
you further stated: "In all seriousness, you're like the salt in a recipe. I know you don't do a damn bit of good for my health but it's just not the same without you. And although you annoy the S#!% out of me sometimes, you are missed."
i appreciate those remarks... i am glad that some of my posts here, which approach the subject matter from an unusual slant, do add a little to the flavor of things here... i also like to have a sense of the person who is posting on a message board... it makes what i read more real when i get a feel for the person behind the words... for that reason, i especially liked what you just said...
steve... perhaps we don't share the same views on many things, but we might join forces to help redirect some of my good friend doug's needling remarks :-)
"I've been to Florida 30+ times in the last 5 years." wow... that is an awful lot of times in a short period of time..."
Actually, it's a conservative estimate. 2 parents with life-threatening illnesses will tend to do it.
"but we might join forces to help redirect some of my good friend doug's needling remarks :-)"
A noble undertaking but but perhaps one you just corrected on your own by that statement. Doug seems to need to yank my chain from time to time. Hope it's never on a bad day. Enjoy your vacation.
"which approach the subject matter from an unusual slant"
somehow i think Wayne a.k.a. Mr. R40 approaches the subject from an unusual slant, not heypaul :)
He seemed to like my post to the BusTalk side about the M20 driver who thinks he's a comedian ... could be he's trying out his spin on a Hippo just North of Sheepshead Bay ? It is inter-session so with no kids to tutor he does have time on his hands ?
Mr t__;-)
While I was riding the subway today I rode on several different trains. I finally got to take the 34th street to Queensbridge shuttle. R32's are used, and the terminate on the downtown express track at 34th/Broadway line station. The R32's had bad mushy floors though.
After 57-7th, the new 63rd street tunnel construction starts, looks pretty similar to the 6th ave connection, though it seems the curves are a bit gentler on the Broadway connection than the 6th ave connection. The cab door was open, and I saw the speedometer hit 40mph in the 63rd street tube.
At 21st Queensbridge, trains terminate on the north platform, there were alot of workers on the tracks on the south platform. Also with no Q trains being layed up, you can easily see into the 63rd street connector, and the bright contractor lights in the distance.
In the PM rush, I saw lucky enough to catch a rerouted Q on Broadway.
I got it at 34th, and boy was that Broadway express sweet. It was so much faster than 6th ave. UNfortunately even though we made no stops after 14th to Dekalb, local trains ahead of us made the trip quite slow after Prince street. It sure will be nice when the Q returns to Broadway and south side Manny B. There's too much congestion on 6th ave. Hopefully they will keep some sort of express service on 6th ave after the A/B tracks close, having those express tubes unused would be a waste of space.
Also the door to a full width cab on a Queensbound R46 F train was ajar on the way home and I saw the speedometer, and it got up to 41mph on the Queens BLVD express. I really do like the R46 cabs though, and controls. Very modern.
Just received from Walthers 2 Subway Models in Plastic(kits) one is a A Unit for Bart and the other is for WAMTA, they have them in Electric and Dummys.
what guage?
HO, O, N, Z, ?
avid
They would be HO scale.
The only problem I find with the cars is that they sit too high on their power trucks. Otherwise, they are decent looking models. I forget where, but there is a company that makes some dress-up decals for the WMATA cars (destination signs, etc.)
The BART cars were originalls made with extruded aluminum bodies that would work for both the "A" and "B" cars by using different plastic castings for the shovel-nose or the blind ends. They had an Athearn "Hi=F" (rubber band) drive from the Athearn RDC. These cars were made by a company known as "American GK Loco Works" -- which Walthers bought up many years ago. They also made Amtrak E60CP electrics and some E60CF freight electrics as well. I'm not sure if the E60CF even had a prototype though.
Believe I've seen them in the Walthers HO catalog so assume they're HO. You forgot S gage! If you ever expect to be anywhere near Bismarck ND send me an e-mail in advance. Admittedly they're not purist quality but what I guess is the only S gage rapid transit fleet in the country is in my basement. High-V., Low-V, SMEE's, BU's MUDC's, Q's and Chicago 4000's. S gage by the way is the old American Flyer size, halfway roughly between O and HO>
<< what I guess is the only S gage rapid transit fleet in the country is in my basement. >>
I've seen pictures several times in MR magazine and in a Walther's catalog from a few years back of a S scale layout of rapid transit and NYC/NH cars in upper Manhatten (maybe 125th St. Station). I'll have to dig through my collection and see if I can't find the modeler's name.
The modeler was (is) Mike Palmiter. My understanding is that he has now dismantled the S scale layout and is getting back into HO. Mr. Palmiter has done some very nice work over the years. He is well known for his plexiglass and mattboard skyscrapers. I believe that Mike obtained several of Ed Davis's S scale rapid transit cars (Low or High V's I believe) and ran them on his layout. Before it was dismantled, Palmiter's S scale layout paid homage to another great rapid transit modeler, Joe Frank, with a piano wharehouse in his miniature South Bronx signed for the "Frank Piano Company" (Mr. Frank is a well known Philadelphia area pianist). BTW, if you can, check out the "Modeling the New York City Subway" website (there is a link in the Transfer Station of this site) to see some photos of Mr. Frank's unbelievable O scale layout!
That was indeed Mike Palmiter, the theme was the New York Central line in that area and he threw in an el with a set of my IRT High-V models along with his NY Central electrics, cars and locos. Yes the buildings were marvelous. I wasn't aware that Mike had gone back to HO; I now work in S and HO.
Since we had a petty disagreement he ceased to correspond with me.
Joe Frank, he's the master el
l modeller of all. I saw many pictures of his marvelous layout, the detail work he does puts me to shame. I'm happy with my work but have to defer to Joe for excellence, he says he's Rembrandt and he is.
Yesterday I had the pleasure to ride a new bus #6359 , a clean air , very low floor {only one step Up}. It could seat about 30 . The wheel wells were hugh and the motor seemed to be mounted standing on its end. This bus had 1/2 of a rear window and the engin could be easily confused for a rest room . It took a corner of the rear. I was favorible impressed.
It was on the M4 route going uptown . I did not get the manufactorer or garage.
avid
from how you describe it it almost sounds like a New Flyer. Perhaps you should pose this question to the BusTalkers
The New Flyer low-floor buses (CNG) run out of Gleason depot in Brooklyn. Not all of 800-989 have been delivered yet.
Why dont you post this on Bus Talk,,persons like myself would love to hear about this item
Steve
The bus you are referring to is the hybrid Orion 6 model.The garage is Manhatanville.
There are 10 Orion VI hybrids running out of Manhattanville garage (6350-6359). The initial four (6350-6353) were supposed to be tested by NJ Transit, but were not for long or at all. They have a different exterior paint job, with a black band around the windows. They also have cushion seating, but I heard that at some point they would be given standard NYCBus seats.
Why is this here? Why wasn't it posted on Bustalk? Or if you had checked Bustalk you would have seen that it has been discussed there.
Tom
I didn't know there were rapid transit cars in S gauge. Are they scratchbuilt? I'm heavily into American Flyer myself, and have always dreamed of having model NYC subway cars.
Yes they are all scratchbuilt. I used to have 12 sets, sold 5 of them since some were excess to me. Karl B is familiar with my work too. And, the reason I'm in S gage rapid transit was because I also run Flyer. Sold most of my collectible items but still have some items for sale and still run Flyer too. Also have an HO setup.
I've managed to acquire some of the more sought-after Flyer stuff during the last few years. The New Haven passenger rolling stock dominates my collection; it's approached fleet proportions. If you're familiar with the New Haven Electrics (499 and 21573), I could fill a roundhouse with 'em. One has even been targeted for cannibalization due to bulb damage to the shell.
How tricky is scratchbuilding a subway car?
Steve. send me an e-mail in about 4 days and I'll talk to you about building subway models. I'm having trouble here, sent you a message last night and it wouldn't go thru so I can't answer you by e-mail right away.Believe me, you'd enjoy running transit on a Flyer layout. Then I have my Big Ed easy to build el too.
I have about a dozen of those same BART models running on my layout. I have 2 4-car trains with a powered unit on both ends.
I also have 11 WMATA cars and I repainted 3 of them to be all silver, and used extra blue stripes from the BART kits to make a somewhat NT looking car. It's the "new technology train" on my layout.
--Mark
Did anyone hear of a fire on the 6:10PM out of Penn Station heading towards Oyster Bay on the new Double Deckers?...my roommate claims he was stuck on that train for over 2 hours. He said there was a fire on the rear engine that was pushing the train and that they got stuck in the tunnel. I am just trying to confirmn this because they way it sounded, the crew had no clue what to do about the fire coming from those new engines.
As I was travelling home on the bus over the Queensboro Bridge at approximately 6:30, you could see something was on fire down on the tracks. We passed by it too quickly to see any damage, but there was a train smack in the middle of it.
Has anyone else heard of this? I just wanted to know what the engine #s was that suffered from the fire Does anyone know how this started? Oh well, You gotta love the LIRR. :0)
Ok, I just finished a detailed track and signal diagram of the MFL from 69th St. to 30th St. They are 1200x900 .gif images and much better than my PATCO ones. I'll give them to exaulted leader Dave for posting later today. In the meanwhile you can see them here.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MFL1.gif
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MFL2.gif
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MFL3.gif
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MFL4.gif
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MFL5.gif
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MFL6.gif
Please tell me what you think so I can improve them. Ask any questions you want.
#1: grade separated
If you want it to look more like a serious work, #4 should say "Subway-Surface" instead of the inverse.
Are you related to the bass player in the South Jersey band Block Hero?
Do you have copies of broad St Subway,Please reply directly to Smokiecat@webtv.net
Thank you
Steve
FDNY
No yet. Give me about a year.
I don't know if this means anything, but dont forget the curve the track makes east of 46th to get off Market St and the elevated to the tunnel approach and once again when it enters the tunnel to get back under Market Street.
Very well done, BTW.
The diagram is made with respect to the MFL so all other things will revolve around the MFL leaving the MFL straight.
Umm, what's MFL?
Market-Frankford Line, or The El, one of Philadelphia's two main subway lines.
When I visited Boston last fall, I remember venturing to North Station to check it out. I didn't realize at the time that north station is a hole in the ground beneath a sports arena much like NY Penn Station. When I figured this out, I decided to take pix of the green line elevated structure and cars and not even bother with North Station.
I have been perusing this site in the Boston section, took the tour of North Station (thanks, Todd), and looked in the historical photos, but I could find nothing on the old North Station.
What's the history of the station. Is there a Boston transit website where I could find out more?
--Keystone Pete
Here are three sites with historical North Station information and views:
http://www.nationalrrmuseum.org/stations/boston.htm
http://pages.map.com/jdietz/Essays/nstation.html
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa267/norstatn.jpg
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Thanks, Alan. I have the book, Boston, Then and Now which contains comparative photos (and captions) between Boston scenes as they appeared "then" and as they looked in 1980. I had hoped to see comparative views of N. Sta., but there are none.
A while back, John B. Esquire and some others from elsewhere expressed surprise that New York NIMBYs would even oppose pedestrian access from the subway to a public park because "outsiders" might walk by. Check out this article from the New York Times:
"The flags hanging from the windows of homes lining the only cobblestone blocks in Brooklyn Heights all bear the same Revolutionary War motto, "Don't Treadon Me."
The flag-waving residents want to stop
a park they fear will bring thousands of
people walking along their streets
every weekend.
On the waterfront below Brooklyn
Heights, a state-sponsored local
development corporation has
proposed building a 70-acre $150
million park with green lawns,
recreation areas, marshlands, an
amphitheater, a hotel and restaurants
from Atlantic Avenue to Jay Street.
New York City has pledged $64
million to build the park if the state will
pay the rest. Now Gov. George E.
Pataki and the Port Authority of New
York and New Jersey, which owns a
majority of the proposed parkland, must decide whether to
support the project and allow an environmental impact
study of the site to go forward.
While Mr. Pataki weighs whether to support the park, the debate
in Brooklyn Heights has taken on an increasingly bitter tone.
Opponents fear that the park will attract hordes of people from
outside the neighborhood to the narrow streets of well-preserved brownstones. They have accused supporters,
their own neighbors, of putting the character, peace and
property values of Brooklyn Heights in jeopardy.
In response, some park supporters have argued that concern
over traffic, quality of life, crime and litter are code words that
betray a fear of blacks and Hispanics from poorer sections of
the borough. And that perpetuates Brooklyn Heights' elitist
reputation, they have said.
Karen Sebiri, who lives in a 160-year-old home on Joralemon
Street, flies a red and white "Don't Tread on Me" flag and
believes a park will ruin the Heights. "This is a small
neighborhood with a significant traffic problem," she said.
"It can't support an influx of people.
A park will make traffic impossible and it will raise crime rates."
Jim Rios, 48, lives on Columbia Place, a block away from Ms.
Sebiri, who says she is in her 40's. There are no nearby ball
fields, so each afternoon Mr. Rios plays whiffle ball in the street
with 20 boys from the Heights and nearby neighborhoods. The
opposition to the park by Ms. Sebiri and other neighbors angers
him. He fears, he said, that his neighbors are turning their backs
on a needed amenity because they want to isolate themselves
from poor parts of Brooklyn.
"They want to live in their own little world," he said. "They want a
suburb in the city, and that is ridiculous."
The plan, created by the Brooklyn Bridge Park Development
Corporation, would use tax money to build grassy lawns and
recreation centers on the waterfront. It would use rents from
commercial tenants like a hotel and restaurants to pay for
maintenance and security.
Since park budgets have been cut sharply in the last decade,
public officials have said the park should not require a
continuing subsidy by taxpayers.
The borough president, Howard Golden, who founded the
development corporation, has said commercial development
would increase park use, improve waterfront safety and create
economic growth.
Development corporation officials say that once the governor
gives his approval, construction can begin on the part of the
park between the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges. The
southern part of the park, on what is now Port Authority land,
could take years to build, because an environmental study still
has to be conducted (and debated).
The plan has the support of many in the area, including the Brooklyn Heights Association, a neighborhood group. Park
boosters do not understand how people could oppose building
a park on a fallow strip of land with such extraordinary views,
especially when the alternative could be luxury housing or a mall.
Last month, Babette Krolik, a Heights resident, stood on the deck of a
boat chartered to view the site of the proposed park.
As the sun fell toward New Jersey, it pushed the Manhattan skyline into silhouette, poured an orange light over the Brooklyn Bridge
anchorage and drew a sigh from Ms. Krolik.
"If you need any other
argument for a park," she
said, "look at this sunset."
The Brooklyn Bridge park is not the first waterfront esplanade
with spectacular views to face opposition in the city in recent
years. Some residents in the West Village opposed the creation
of the Hudson River Park because they feared that the project
would be too commercial and draw too many people on to
already crowded streets. Although ultimately unsuccessful in
Manhattan, those arguments are now echoed in Brooklyn.
Residents skeptical of the Brooklyn park plan say they believe
that government and private foundations, not commercial
ventures, ought to pay to keep up the park.
"This is a citizens' protest against what we perceive as a huge
real estate deal," said Catherine M. Fitzsimons, who hung the
first "Don't Tread on Me" flag along Joralemon Street on May 1.
"I don't call something with a huge hotel, conference center and
restaurants a park."
Although opponents of the park plan can be found all over the
Heights, the organized opposition is centered on cobblestone
blocks at the western end of Joralemon Street. Under the
current plan, the most direct path from the downtown Brooklyn
subway lines to the park would be to walk down Joralemon, a
narrow residential street lined with twisting old trees, overflowing
flower boxes and brownstones worth $1 million to $3 million.
Some opponents of the plan have said they would support a
park if it had no commercial development and less active
recreation facilities, thereby attracting fewer visitors. Others
want an iron gate to seal Joralemon off from the waterfront. Still
others, like Ms. Sebiri, do not want any sort of park.
Ms. Sebiri said the marsh would lure mosquitoes and the
amphitheater would bring Britney Spears and rambunctious
fans. She wants neither more insects nor more teenagers.
Six months after the park opens, she predicted, the buildings
will be covered with graffiti, rowdy young people will plague the
neighborhood and there will be muggings up and down the
street.
"I don't see this as the eighth wonder of the world," she said.
Many opponents say that the park will make every day in
Brooklyn Heights like Independence Day. On the Fourth of July,
the Brooklyn Heights Promenade, which overlooks the harbor, is
packed with visitors, many of whom are black.
Frank Folisi, a Heights resident who lives near Monroe Place
and Clark Street, complained that he would not even hang an
American flag on July 4 without its being stolen. Mr. Folisi said
the park would attract too many young people to the recreation
and activity centers.
"The quality-of-life crimes are committed by young people," he
said. "I'd rather see a Costco or a Target down there than see
this neighborhood overwhelmed by people who come from
someplace else."
But park supporters cringe when they hear such arguments.
Brooklyn Heights is mostly white and wealthy. Supporters
believe that opponents are using a code that means black and
Hispanic teenagers from poor areas of Brooklyn.
"What you have to realize is that a lot of people in Brooklyn
Heights are afraid of people from other parts of Brooklyn
coming to the neighborhood," Ms. Krolik said.
Development corporation board members have long worried
about reaction to the park plan in the Heights. Although political
leaders will commit the millions needed to build a park only if it
is designed to serve all of Brooklyn, planners say they know the
Heights has the political muscle to kill the plan. From last winter
until this spring, planners held a series of public workshops to
build support for the park. The workshops converted many
skeptics, but opposition remains.
Hazel Fershleiser, a Heights resident and a supporter of the
plan, compared the opposition to the contention over a
12-screen movie theater that opened at the edge of the
neighborhood last month. Both projects, Mrs. Fershleiser said,
have created fears that black residents would come to the Heights.
"To some extent it's been isolated, and the fact it's not as
isolated anymore concerns people," she said.
Most opponents of the park bristle at suggestions that they fear
people from other parts of Brooklyn. Pearl Bowser, a Joralemon
Street resident for 50 years, an opponent of the current plan and
an African-American, said park boosters were using labels like
xenophobia and elitism to smear the opponents and minimize
their concerns. Ms. Bowser supports a park, but one without
commercial development.
"No one in this community objects to the variety of the people
coming to the waterfront," Ms. Bowser said. "We object to the
volume of traffic coming through. It's not a park. It's a hotel and
convention center with a lawn."
But not all the residents reject the elitist label. They ask: What is
wrong with trying to preserve the peacefulness and community
spirit of a neighborhood?
"People want to isolate their community, but that is normal," Ms.
Sebiri said. "To call it elitism is too easy.
Everyone wants his or her neighborhood isolated. What makes
a neighborhood? Having a small community where people know each other."
Allowing thousands of people to come to the Brooklyn waterfront
every weekend through a residential area will destroy
homeowners' ability to keep an eye on their property and
maintain the beauty of their streets, Ms. Sebiri said.
"I don't think Brooklyn Heights asked for this," she said. "If you
are really thinking of the less fortunate, you would want to help
put parks in their neighborhoods.''
Joralemon Street residents said their fight against the park
proposal had created a new neighborhood solidarity that could
be seen in all the houses participating in the Greenest Block
contest.
For two years the part of Joralemon Street lined with
cobblestones has finished second in the contest to a block on
State Street in Boerum Hill.
Earlier this year there were hopes of a victory for Joralemon,
thanks to a fund-raiser and a $900 investment in cascading
geraniums and oak-leaf hydrangeas.
But the contest is run by Mr. Golden, the borough president, who
has pledged $7 million to build the park that many on Joralemon
hate.
"Now forget it," Ms. Fitzsimons said. "Howie Golden's never
going to pick this block."
What is my point about the American Planning Association and the National Resources Defense Council? It is the very multi-step process and environmental lawsuits so dear to these groups that empower small groups of selfish bigots like this. This opposition is too selfish and bigoted even for the Brooklyn Heights Association and the local Councilmember, both of whom support the parks. After the EIS, an environmental lawsuit will tie this thing up for years.
Wake up, remaining idealistic liberals. Your programs and processes have been hijacked by profiteers and bigots, leaving nothing for the "public interest." The period of activist government on behalf of ordinary people, instead of against them, lasted about a decade. Bill and Hillary finished it off once and for all.
It's easy to yell 'Nimby' but neither your nor I have plopped down $1M for a house in Brooklyn. Looking at it the other way, the city wants to ram this down their throats. What will gained by shattering the quiet of a beautiful residential block. I'm guessing that most of the people on Joralemon are as liberal as I am conservative, but they are right on this one. You can't have it both ways - criticizing well-off people for moving to the 'burbs and then criticizing the well-off people that choose to spend big bucks to remain in Brooklyn. It's like a certain union leader on S.I. who is always wailing about the 'rich people up on Todt Hill', what's the point? Do you want them to move away? Maybe the residents of Joralemon Street just want to be left alone. Whatever became of democracy anyway? You want local input down to the block level, then when you don't like that input, you call them names. So these taxpaying homeowners just can't win. The response in Windsor Terrace or New Dorp would be the same.
[re opposition to Brooklyn Heights park]
[It's easy to yell 'Nimby' but neither your nor I have plopped down $1M for a house in Brooklyn. Looking at it the other way, the city wants to ram this down their throats. What will gained by shattering the quiet of a beautiful residential block. I'm guessing that most of the people on Joralemon are as liberal as I am conservative, but they are right on this one.]
What's really at issue is exaggeration of the potential "dangers"? It is stretching matters to the absolute limit of believeability to think that Joralemon Street is going to be ruined by the occasional pedestrians on their way to the park. I highly doubt that we'll see hordes of youths from East New York and Brownsville patronizing this park (and committing mayhem on Joralemon Street while going there).
Peter is right about the acutal impact. On a weekend in the summer, all of Brooklyn shows up to go to Prospect Park. They park on my block, and they come from everywhere. But on weekdays in the summer, and all during the rest of the year, everyone in the park is from the neighborhoods around it -- a local park for us at everyone's expense. The Brooklyn Piers park would be no different, except that those staying in the hotel would use it too. I'm near the subway, and lots of people walk down my block to go elsewhere from there. On an annual basis, I'd bet I get more foot traffic from the subway than Jorolemon Street would from the park.
But Dan is right about at least some people in Windsor Terrace. Case in point -- the school yard of PS 154. Some cranky neighbors got together and demanded that it be closed after school and in the summer, so kids wouldn't hang out. To satisfy the cabal, some parents volunteered to go down and lock the gate at sundown and chase the kids out, so the kids could play in the afternoon. We did that duty every Friday for a year. In part because the public schools are such a political mess, we sent our kids to a Catholic School. Once folks like us weren't around, there was no one public spirited enough to come and lock the gate. You know what the situation is now? Each member of that same cabal has a key, and lets their own kids in to play, but locks it against all the other kids in the neighborhood, including all the kids who still go to that school! Pretty nasty, huh? They should put that group against the Jorelemon St crowd on Suvivor.
Anyway, I have a solution to keep "outsiders" out of the Heights and shut up the environmental racism folks at the same time. Move the waste transfer to the Brooklyn Piers. Put the park in Red Hook.
The 'F' train was there when you bought your house. The Joralemon Street people are being told they have to bear a burden for no other reason than to make cranky old Howard Golden look good. If as a liberal in good standing suspect 'racism', then build the park out in East New York where it's really needed. The waste transfer issue is dead as far as Red Hook is concerned because the city is going to retrofit it's existing facilities. (But I'm sure most Red Hook residents would have Fresh Kills stay open until doomsday.) Having grown up one neighborhood south of Windsor Terrace in Kensington, I know you'd kick Joralemon Street's well-bred ass on Survivor. That playground story is very funny, but you are better having it locked up it at night or it will become a nuisance real quick. By the way, has the NYPD Airbag Squad gotten back to you yet?
[The 'F' train was there when you bought your house. The Joralemon Street people are being told they have to bear a burden for no other reason than to make cranky old Howard Golden look good.]
You're assuming that there will be a burden for the people on Joralemon Street to bear. I don't see how that is necessarily the case. Having some people walk down your street on their way to a park doesn't remotely compare, say, to having a bus depot or an incinerator as your next door neighbor
(You're assuming that there will be a burden for the people on Joralemon Street to bear. I don't see how that is necessarily the
case. Having some people walk down your street on their way to a park doesn't remotely compare, say, to having a bus depot
or an incinerator as your next door neighbor)
Back on topic, this represents a form of NIMBY that I thought had been dying out or at least confined to the few remaining redneck areas of Queens...the subway rider as a menace, and the subway extension as a "highway to hell." The anti-car nuts are objecting to the parking lots people will use to access the hotel and conference center. While I don't agree with them (any traffic to those areas would be a drop in the bucket -- the jobs and amenities would not), I at least find their objections more or less rational.
But under the plan, Jorolemon St would be CLOSED to though traffic and available only to pedestrians. It is exactly people walking to/from the subway that those folks fear. And yes, the park wasn't there when they moved in, but most other people bear a far greater burden. If that is the standard (one person objecting to something as innocuous as a park) we might as well ban all public improvments for all time.
Wonder what they would say if the PA suddenly decided to renovate the piers to accept monster container ships?
No EIS needed, since the area is ALREADY a port.
-Hank
Wonder what they would say if the PA suddenly decided to renovate the piers to accept monster container ships?
I'll give you three guesses.
BTW, has the idea of running a pedestrian tunnel from the park to the subway been dropped?
(BTW, has the idea of running a pedestrian tunnel from the park to the subway been dropped? )
I'm told the park promoters are willing to consider it as an addition to, not an alternative to, the ability to walk down Jorolemon -- if it is feasible and affordable.
While Jorolemon folks are against the walk down Jorolemon, the rest of Brooklyn Heights is against an overpass and elevator at Montigue -- it would cut the panorama from the Promanade. My solution: with more commercial development, perhaps they could afford to dig under the BQE at Montigue. But no, they don't want that.
As we both know, any solution that deals with the specific objections is undesireable from the point of view of those who raised them, who desire only to maintain the status quo.
(By the way, has the NYPD Airbag Squad gotten back to you yet? )
Yes. Tuesday I filled out four forms, and was required to put the make, model, year and color of the car on each. This morning a sargent called to ask what kind of car it was.
Your tax dollars hard at work. Maybe we shouldn't put computers in the precincts and patrol cars after all. Then they might have to enter the info 6 times into 6 different systems. Pretty sad when you think about it.
Just for those who think that all things run that poorly in the NYPD, when our car was stolen in April, the process was not as disgusting and redundant. Perhaps it was because it was in a different precinct.
And it was yet another precinct that recovered the car 2 weeks later parked on a Sunset Park street with no visible damage (the only damage was the lack of an ignition).
NIMBY's often do not make any sense, and are indeed racist bigots. Look at all these lovely examples.
1.Not enough supermarkets in my area because NIMBY's fear it will pollute the harbor in Roslyn, instead they approve building more housing. Result is roads and existing markets are overcrowded and out of stock, leaving a shortage of vital food and drug items in the area.
The NIMBY's feared it would bring more "outsiders" to Roslyn village.
2. HUB Light Rail line. Westbury and Garden City civic groups have vocally opposed building the line, because it would bring more "outsiders". Result is an unending traffic jam.
3. Main line grade crossings. The crossings present a danger to trains and traffic, it also causes more traffic. Eliminations, while lenghty, have always been better in the long run. NIMBY's fear their community will feel like the "horrible" south shore.
4.Route 107. This two lane road is always backed up, because there needs to be more lanes added, considering the cars it carries everyday. But wealthy Brookville residents claim it will "ruin" the community, another example of a few NIMBY's making us sit in un-ending backups.
5.Broadway Mall in Hicksville. This mall should've been expanded much further, but area NIMBY's feared a big mall would bring in outsiders and increase traffic. Result is new one level JC Penney has very poor sales and the mall is not doing well, it's quite empty.
6.Upstate and in city. NIMBY's and envirofreaks oppose new much needed power plants. They fear they will cause pollution, even though the new plants are state of the art gas powered. Because the special few get their way, power shortages cause price to jump, and most small businesses like the ones in Chinatown, have no A/C. Unlike last year, with no A/C it's pretty unbearable there. Result may affect store business. Many people are hurting due to high electric costs. And you can thank the NIMBY's.
And NIMBY's like to stall other stuff to, like re-opening the Landia LIRR station in Locust Grove.
NIMBY's are rich selfish bigots that show the example that a rich, powerful few control the country. The nation's wealth and power must be more evenly spread to ensure that the general good of the majority
comes before the priveledged few.
I agree with you about everything except for the hub light rail and the power plants (and your usual well red comments at the end). I'll get to the power plants later.
The Hub Light Rail, assuming it is built will be nothing more than the grand exalted leader of the great pack of Elephants... White Elephants.
Since the chances of a large majority of people arriving to shop by bus is as likely as... well... nothing is that unlikely, the only thing that this boondoggle will do is consolidate parking into a huge single area with rail connections to all of the stores. This does nothing more than make the Hub feel like an airport and divert traffic to other places. Why should somebody bother with a stupid train when they can park directly at the store of their choice elsewhere.
In addition to those deficiencies, it will make traffic worse, as the same amount of cars will be travelling to the exact same spot, even more congestion than before.
And finally, if you think that only people from Westbury and Garden City shop at the hub and there are no "outsiders" there, I have no idea what's wrong with you.
Finally, gas plants suck, they are not nearly as powerful and energy efficient as other types of plants and they also pollute more than the cleanest, best type of plant: NUCLEAR.
More nuclear plants are the answer. As for those who will come on and ask me how I'd like to have a nuclear plant in my backyard, I'd WELCOME a nuclear plant to the area.
>>>And finally, if you think that only people from Westbury and Garden City shop at the hub and there are no "outsiders" there, I
have no idea what's wrong with you.<<<
I know that there are many "outsiders" in the Hub area. I'm just saying that local NIMBY's would use that as an excuse to stop a rail project.
Roosevelt Field gets most of the people from Nassau and Queens, because it's really the only decent shopping mall in this area.
Alot of people from as far away as Flushing go to Roosevelt Field, many of them use Metrocard transfers from the N22 and N24 to connect with NYCT buses.
Sorry then.
I live farther than Flushing, near Kings Plaza (actually, it's a block away from me as the crow flies). But Kings Plaza sucks and charges for parking so we go to Roosevelt Field and vicinity too.
(I live farther than Flushing, near Kings Plaza (actually, it's a block away from me as the crow flies). But Kings Plaza sucks and charges for parking so we go to Roosevelt Field and vicinity too. )
Thank God the pro-parking crazies at City Planning wouldn't deign to go on Subtalk and won't read your post!
What would happen if they did?
Doesn't the gas to go from King's Plaza to Roosevelt Field cost more than the parking fee at King's Plaza?
But one gets a better mall.
Yeah, but its depressing to see the big lot next door that used to hold the great Roosevelt Raceway!!!
Natural gas plants to do suck. PECO energy down here in Philly converted all its primary fuel driven power plants to natrual gas and they've done fine (they have a few coal back up plants). Stil, they are not nearly as powerful and energy efficient as other types of plants and they also pollute more than the cleanest, best type of plant: HYDRO-ELECTRIC, a number of which PECO also operates along with at least 3 nuclear plants.
Hydro-electric is also a good alternative, but there are problems:
You need a big river
A very large area has to be condemned for the lake
You can only build one on each river for many miles before the next one
It makes navigation a pain in the ass (but not impossible).
Of course, building one creates a nice lake, controls seasonal flooding and allows the presence of a reservoir for water supply.
Nuclear has the disadvantage of disposing waste products until they can be used up, it has the advantage of having nuclear reactors in the skyline, which look cool.
Finally, gas plants suck, they are not nearly as powerful and energy efficient as other types of plants and they also pollute more than the cleanest, best type of plant: NUCLEAR.
What? less efficient? Huh? Never heard this - care to back that statement up somehow.
Even if nuclear is better (in some ways it is) you are going to have a bit of a nimby problem there too!!!
As for hydroelectric, a recent study found that the methane emissions from the lake above a hydro plant in brazil were so large that the hydro plant was no better (or even worse) for global warming. They found one hydro plant where the lake is ten times worse for global warming than a _COAL_ fired plant, which produced the same power as the hydro plant, would be. It does vary a lot from lake to lake. Want the reference? (Methane is emitted when vegetation rots underwater. Molecule for molecule, it is a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2.)
When you quote something, enclose it in quotes so people know what you're posting and what you're quoting.
In any case, natural gas plants do not produce as much energy as do coal and oil plants, or nuclear plants for that matter.
When building damns, all of the vegetation is mowed and plowed away. There is very little left when the lake begins to form.
Not true. In most cases, the town is condemed, and everything that would not be a surface hazard (or a contaminant if the lake is to be used to supply drinking water) is left. Many lakes formed by damns upstate have buildings on the bottoms.
-Hank
"In any case, natural gas plants do not produce as much energy as do coal and oil plants, or nuclear plants for that
matter. "
Ok, I quoted it.
First you said that natural gas plants were less _efficient._ Now you are saying they produce "less energy." I trust you realize that these are two different things?
I have never heard that natural gas power plants are less efficient. As I understand it, the newest plants are often natural gas (at least those built in the NE) and these are the most efficient there are. Thus I wonder about your assertion that they are inefficient. So I am still waiting for a reference to back up your statement.
As for them producing less energy than coal or nuclear plants...For economic reasons coal and nuke plants tend to be large. The regulation of nuke plants , and I think some engineering issues, led them to be large. Coal is going to be cheaper if you get lots and lots of it to one plant. So you build a big plant. However, there is nothing to stop you from building a really big natural gas plant. But economically it might be smarter to build a smaller one. Who cares? The issues should be cost, efficiency, and pollution, not sheer size. On the first two, coal and gas are similar. On the last one, pollution, gas has coal beat hands down. And it always will. I have no desire to debate nuke vs. gas with you - nuke has pros and cons which are difficult to compare with fossil fuels - they are much more subjective questions.
As for your statement that all the vegetation is removed before they flood the lake...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_771000/771465.stm
Hey if you don't like Sea Cliff or the rest of the north shore, then F____N MOVE!!!! I like to protect my property values and the aestheticness of my neighborhood so I must be a NIMBY (and proud) but I am certainly not a rich selfish bigot!!!
Right on Jeff!
Too many posters on this board use the term NIMBY as if only certain people fit the description. In fact, it describes a syndrome that applies to all of us.
I find it hard to believe that there is a single person who posts to this board who is so altruistic as to favor placing a sewage treatment plant right next to his/her home no matter how much the larger community needs it. The NIMBY syndrome is even stronger if you have invested a good deal of money in purchasing your property, and perceive a loss of value to your property.
So rather than complaining about selfish NIMBYs in Long Island, (or Brooklyn, or New Jersey, or anywhere else) posters should realize NIMBY is normal, and either the value of the new project to the neighborhood must be sold to the people affected, or some sort of compensation paid to them for their losses.
The classic book about NIMBYs is Max Shulman's Rally Round the Flag Boys written in the mid 50's at the height of the cold war about a small community's resistence to having a Nike anti-aircraft missile installation in their town. The book is hilarious. (The 1958 movie made from the book bombed.)
BTW, getting way off topic, last week the local newspapers had an article about the destruction of the last Nike missile bases in the Los Angeles area, and many of the residents who lived near them did not even know there had been nuclear warheads on the missiles in their neighborhoods.
Tom
[BTW, getting way off topic, last week the local newspapers had an article about the destruction of the last Nike missile bases in
the Los Angeles area, and many of the residents who lived near them did not even know there had been nuclear warheads on the missiles in their neighborhoods.]
Not all of the Nike missles had nuclear warheads. The first-generation ones, which were introduced in the early 1950's and known as Nike Ajax, had conventional warheads. It was the second generation Nike Hercules missles which were nuclear-capable. They were introduced starting at the end of the 1950's.
See this link for more information.
Peter;
Thanks for the link to the Nike site. It brought back great memories of a misspent youth when I was Nike mechanic in Germany. Our "redbirds" (named for the red mailbox like cover over the nose) packed much more of a punch than those of the NYCTA.
Tom
"Our "redbirds" (named for the red mailbox like cover over the nose) packed much more of a punch than those of the NYCTA."
You, obviously, have never gotten caught in their vice grip doors and been dragged down the platform.
Question: Were the MIM-14's a two stage missile? How about the MIM-3's?
>>> You, obviously, have never gotten caught in their vice grip doors and been dragged down the platform. <<<
That is true, and fortunately no one ever got to see the Nike Hercules "redbirds" display their power. (2-40 kilotons)
All Nikes had detachable boosters. The Ajax had one 12' diameter booster, the Hercules had four 12' diameter boosters bound together.
Tom
12 FOOT diameter boosters? The missle itself didn't look like it had a 12 foot diameter!
-Hank
[re Nike missiles]
12 FOOT diameter boosters? The missle itself didn't look like it had a 12 foot diameter!
He probably meant to say 12-inch. Nikes were pretty small.
Compared to a HAWK or Patriot the Nike's were monsters. However even they pailed in comparason to the Russian SA-4 Ganef.
Compared to a HAWK or Patriot the Nike's were monsters. However even they pailed in comparason to the Russian SA-4 Ganef.
Lack of range was the big drawback of the Nikes. IIRC, the first-generation ones had a maximum range of about 20 to 25 miles, the second-generation, nuclear ones a bit longer. Enemy bombers could get a little too close for comfort before they'd come within Nike range.
>>> Enemy bombers could get a little too close for comfort before they'd come within Nike range. <<<
Peter;
You must remember that Nikes were not the sole defense. The BOMARC was the first line of interception with a 400 mile range, followed by fighter interceptors firing air to air missiles, with the Nikes to pick off what got through the outer defenses. The Hercules range was in excess of 75 miles.
Keep in mind that the Nike was developed to counter a WWII threat. When the Russians built a clone of the B-29 (TU 4?) It was realized that American cities were vulnerable to attack from the air by planes capable of carrying nuclear bombs. Anti aircraft guns were inefficient. Post WWII studies showed that the Germans fired 16,000 rounds for each bomber shot down by flak, and 90% of bombers reached their targets. The Nike Ajax was developed to replace radar guided 90 mm anti aircraft guns, and the first missilemen were former gunners.
Tom
The Navel equilivent of the Nike, the RIM-8 Talos, was started in 1944 as a counter kamakaze weapon, project Bumblebee. The missile was finally fielded in 1958 with a liquid fueled rocket and 80 mile range.
Um, dis I miss something or when did this become MISSILETALK? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> 12 FOOT diameter boosters <<<
This was a mistake, I meant to say 12" diameter, but I have now looked up again, and it should be 16" diameter for the booster. The Ajax body had a 15" diameter.
Tom
The classic book is actually called "Windfalls and Wipeouts." It advocated compensation for the sewage treatment plant, but heavy taxes on property values that were increased as a result of public improvments.
But people walking to a park? Give me a break. I'll that those living near a new sewage treatment plant (as opposed to those moving in next to an old one then trying to get it removed to increase their property values) deserve compensation. I'm happy to pay off those near the proposed N train extension to LaGuardia.
If Jorolemon St is a private street, let them start paying property taxes on it.
I would think that towns would find less resistance to critical projects if they reinbursed people directly affected by the project. I know that host communities of landfills get free garbage pickup for for life and usually an annual cash payout. If the town needs a sewage plant or power plant next to your house you should get free sewage or power and you, being a good citizen should accept their offer with good nature and aplumb.
BTW I'd be honoured to have a Nike missile base in my town. The Nike was a damn fine missile and I'd sleep better at night knowing that I was safe from Russian attack. Did those bases in CA still have Nike missiles operating bcause I thought they went out of service in 1974 when all but 4 training batteries in Flordia were disbanded. Finally the coolest thing about a missile base is that after they close is it becomes an abandonned missile base and that's even better than an abandonned railroad line or an abandonned quarry.
[BTW I'd be honoured to have a Nike missile base in my town. The Nike was a damn fine missile and I'd sleep better at night knowing that I was safe from Russian attack. Did those bases in CA still have Nike missiles operating bcause I thought they went out of service in 1974 when all but 4 training batteries in Flordia were disbanded. Finally the coolest thing about a missile base is that after they close is it becomes an abandonned missile base and that's even better than an abandonned railroad line or an abandonned quarry.]
Nikes were useful against enemy aircraft but wholly useless against missile attack. When the USSR began building up its ICBM force, it became obvious that Nikes were obsolete. Even so, some of them stayed in use until banned by the SALT 1 treaty in 1974.
The Nike missiles (MIM-3 and MIM-14) were one of the first guided anti-aircraft missile systems in the world and eventually over 40,000 were produced. Many were sent abroad and they made up the first line aircraft defence in many NATO and Aisan countries until they were replaced by the MIM-23 HAWK system. Japan produced MIM-14C Nikes up until the early 80's under liscance. The only reason they were "banned" was because in the US they could carry a nuclear warhead and it let the Army reduce Nuclear weapons without really reducing Nuclear weapons.
Yeah, sure. Sounds like fun.
Did you live near an abandoned uranium mine or nuke plant as a child?
-Hank
I live and grew up in New Jersey. Need I say more?
It's safer over either the long run or the short run to live near a clean, safe and efficient nuclear power plant than it is to live near a dirty, stinking fossil fuel plant.
What about clean, sweet smelling plant? I took a tour of the Beesley's Point power plant near Ocean City NJ. Its a 400 MW facility with 2 .94/.06 coal/tire boilers and a heavy oil boiler. It a fairly new plant and has all the emmissions controls. The only thing it emits is CO2. It even regulates the tempature of its discharge. Global warming aside, the poeple who live nearby get inhale more pollution from route 9 and the Parkway than from the Powerplant.
This is frequently brought up to a lot of people. Old plants pollute more than new. But they object to a new plant, and the old one can't be shut down until a new one is built.
You're more at risk as a pedestrian in NYC then you are living within 5 miles of a power plant.
-Hank
Right on Jeff!
Too many posters on this board use the term NIMBY as if only certain people fit the description. In fact, it describes a syndrome that applies to all of us.
I find it hard to believe that there is a single person who posts to this board who is so altruistic as to favor placing a sewage treatment plant right next to his/her home no matter how much the larger community needs it. The NIMBY syndrome is even stronger if you have invested a good deal of money in purchasing your property, and perceive a loss of value to your property.
So rather than complaining about selfish NIMBYs in Long Island, (or Brooklyn, or New Jersey, or anywhere else) posters should realize NIMBY is normal, and either the value of the new project to the neighborhood must be sold to the people affected, or some sort of compensation paid to them for their losses.
The classic book about NIMBYs is Max Shulman's Rally Round the Flag Boys written in the mid 50's at the height of the cold war about a small community's resistence to having a Nike anti-aircraft missile installation in their town. The book is hilarious. (The 1958 movie made from the book bombed.)
BTW, getting way off topic, last week the local newspapers had an article about the destruction of the last Nike missile bases in the Los Angeles area, and many of the residents who lived near them did not even know there had been nuclear warheads on the missiles in their neighborhoods. Those same type of missiles were all around NYC also. Did you know they had nuclear warheads?
Tom
I was in Atlanta from Friday until Sunday and hit 26 of the 36 MARTA stations in less than 24 hours. My observations:
Car inetriors don't look as modern as the stations.
Great railfan view!
Nice stations.
Interior signs of very little use since they only display the station name as you arrive.
Automated announcements didn't work often. They were either hard to hear or didn't go on at all. T/O often did them manually.
No help at Five Points from MARTA as to which platform to use to make transfers. I asked a fellow passenger who told me to use the side platform.
Why is Bankhead only long enough for 2 cars?
Why do the Bankhead trains imply that you are on a Hamilton Holmes train when you get to Ashby?
Hightower isn't a very helpful destanation sign.
I figured out the T/O's console very easily. Very similar to DC.
All in all, pretty good system.
No help at Five Points from MARTA as to which platform to use to make transfers. I asked a fellow passenger who told me
to use the side platform.
You can use any platform to transfer, they got signs telling you where to go.
Why is Bankhead only long enough for 2 cars?
They didn't expect ridership to be that high, even though now it's a somewhat busy station. Also, it was basically a half-assed extension. That station should have been built 20 years ago, but a lot of political BS got in the way. It's expandable to four cars.
Why do the Bankhead trains imply that you are on a Hamilton Holmes train when you get to Ashby?
I don't have a clue what you're talking about. The T/O always seems to remind everyone where the destination of that train is when I ride it.
Hightower isn't a very helpful destanation sign.
Hamilton E. Holmes used to be called Hightower, up until a few years ago, they still haven't changed the signs.
The automated announcement said transfer to Bankhead or something along those lines as we approached Ashby and then the T/O came on and announced this was a Bankhead train.
I was aware of the renaming of Hightower. Its just that after a few years, you would expect the signs to be changed to the correct name.
One more question. When we were in manual, the T/O would leave the console to go open the doors on the left side of the train BEFORE the train stopped. Is this allowed without having the train go BIE?
I guess the wrong automated annoucements were used on that Bankhead train. When you said that the T/O started to make annmoucements manually (it happens all the time) the train itself is still in ATO. The trains are almost never run manually. Destinations signs on MARTA are the worst, I made a post about it a few weeks ago, search for it if you want to read my rant about them.
Trains on the East-West were in manual alot. It would often switch over from manual to ATO and back again at every station. North-South was ATO all the times I rode it.
Fellow SubTalkers...
In a few weeks, I have a midday appointment in downtown Brooklyn. I will be coming from Long Island, and after the appointment I will be driving directly back to Boston. Time on both ends of the appointment will be short, so I won't have much time to railfan or "be creative."
However, I would like to avoid driving to downtown Brooklyn, and take the train (preferably LIRR to Brooklyn, though the subway is OK too). I would like to position my car at a place convenient to the LIRR or a nearby subway stop in Queens, so that I can have a "quick getaway" over the T-Neck or W-Stone Bridge as soon as possible without fighting too much city or LI traffic.
Does anyone know of public garages that would fit this plan, and that still HAVE SPACES AVAILABLE around 10am? The only one that I can think of right now is the one by Queens Plaza (Lou?). Cost is not an issue -- the boss is paying! Any other suggestions?
(However, I would like to avoid driving to downtown Brooklyn)
I'd drive almost all the way in, to Grand Army Plaza, and park in the vicinity. If you know how to go (the Jackie Robinson, Bushwick Ave. exit, Eastern Parkway Extension, Eastern Parkway) that drive will be as fast as the train or faster, and the IRT runs frequently.
Fast on the way out, too -- if you get to the Kew Gardens Interchange long enough before 5 p.m. You listen to your own station, exit for the Van Wyck to the Whitestone at Kew if that works, but otherwise take the Grand Central to the Clearview to the Throggs Neck. You can even take Vanderbilt Avenue out of the Plaza up to the BQE (beyond the Brooklyn Bridge backup) to the LIE is the other routes are blocked.
I believe the tall apartment building on Downtown Brooklyn side of the plaza on the north side of Flatbush Avenue has parking, but I'm not sure. There is another garage on Union Street, also off Grand Army Plaza. If you haven't been there, the IRT station is at the northern end of the Plaza, furthest from the library.
Thanks for the advice, Larry. Indeed, I know the Interboro (oops, JR) and Bushwick well. My father worked at Wykoff Heights hospital and made the trek daily from LI -- often with me in tow when I was young.
Looking for a place to pahhhk yer cahh? You can probably get a
free street spot on the North side of Queens Blvd near the Forest
Hills LIRR station, about a 5-10 minute walk. Very easy access
to the Whitestone or Throgs Neck or even the Tri-B. Or take
the E or F to QP and utilize the under-utilized crosstown IND.
Also some long-term parking lots near the Queens Center mall
Woodhaven Blvd station.
Right now I'm leaning towards the big lot by Queens Plaza, then a slllloooowwww ride on the G. Can anyone confirm that this garage has spaces available for midday arrivals (Lou? Are you out there???)
I be here!!
Yes there is a Muni Lot right across from me at Queens Palaza and there are always spots there even on the roof (you could wave at me). Entrance to Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) right by the elevators.
Before 10am arrival for 8 hours is $5.25, what my carpool used to pay before I moved to Brooklyn.
There is also a Muni lot in downtown Brooklyn on Atlantic Ave and Court Street that is a bit more expensive.
Let me know when you are going to be here, I can always cross the steet to say Hi!!
Email me too....
Todd, you might want to find parking near Jamaica LIRR complex and then take the Flatbush Branch train to Flatbush Terminal. There you can jump on a 2/3/4 or 5 train to Nevins/Hoyt St./or Borough Hall stations.
I work in Downtown Brooklyn and if I knew exactly where you were going could lead you in the right direction.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
I would love to park near the Jamaica LIRR. Is there a lot available there which has availability around noontime?
It's easy to yell 'Nimby' but neither your nor I have plopped down $1M for a house in Brooklyn. Looking at it the other way, the city wants to ram this down their throats. What will gained by shattering the quiet of a beautiful residential block. I'm guessing that most of the people on Joralemon are as liberal as I am conservative, but they are right on this one. You can't have it both ways - criticizing well-off people for moving to the 'burbs and then criticizing the well-off people that choose to spend big bucks to remain in Brooklyn. It's like a certain union leader on S.I. who is always wailing about the 'rich people up on Todt Hill', what's the point? Do you want them to move away? Maybe the residents of Joralemon Street just want to be left alone. Whatever became of democracy anyway? You want local input down to the block level, then when you don't like that input, you call them names. So these taxpaying homeowners just can't win. The response in Windsor Terrace or New Dorp would be the same.
[re opposition to Brooklyn Heights park]
[It's easy to yell 'Nimby' but neither your nor I have plopped down $1M for a house in Brooklyn. Looking at it the other way, the city wants to ram this down their throats. What will gained by shattering the quiet of a beautiful residential block. I'm guessing that most of the people on Joralemon are as liberal as I am conservative, but they are right on this one.]
What's really at issue is exaggeration of the potential "dangers"? It is stretching matters to the absolute limit of believeability to think that Joralemon Street is going to be ruined by the occasional pedestrians on their way to the park. I highly doubt that we'll see hordes of youths from East New York and Brownsville patronizing this park (and committing mayhem on Joralemon Street while going there).
Peter is right about the acutal impact. On a weekend in the summer, all of Brooklyn shows up to go to Prospect Park. They park on my block, and they come from everywhere. But on weekdays in the summer, and all during the rest of the year, everyone in the park is from the neighborhoods around it -- a local park for us at everyone's expense. The Brooklyn Piers park would be no different, except that those staying in the hotel would use it too. I'm near the subway, and lots of people walk down my block to go elsewhere from there. On an annual basis, I'd bet I get more foot traffic from the subway than Jorolemon Street would from the park.
But Dan is right about at least some people in Windsor Terrace. Case in point -- the school yard of PS 154. Some cranky neighbors got together and demanded that it be closed after school and in the summer, so kids wouldn't hang out. To satisfy the cabal, some parents volunteered to go down and lock the gate at sundown and chase the kids out, so the kids could play in the afternoon. We did that duty every Friday for a year. In part because the public schools are such a political mess, we sent our kids to a Catholic School. Once folks like us weren't around, there was no one public spirited enough to come and lock the gate. You know what the situation is now? Each member of that same cabal has a key, and lets their own kids in to play, but locks it against all the other kids in the neighborhood, including all the kids who still go to that school! Pretty nasty, huh? They should put that group against the Jorelemon St crowd on Suvivor.
Anyway, I have a solution to keep "outsiders" out of the Heights and shut up the environmental racism folks at the same time. Move the waste transfer to the Brooklyn Piers. Put the park in Red Hook.
The 'F' train was there when you bought your house. The Joralemon Street people are being told they have to bear a burden for no other reason than to make cranky old Howard Golden look good. If as a liberal in good standing suspect 'racism', then build the park out in East New York where it's really needed. The waste transfer issue is dead as far as Red Hook is concerned because the city is going to retrofit it's existing facilities. (But I'm sure most Red Hook residents would have Fresh Kills stay open until doomsday.) Having grown up one neighborhood south of Windsor Terrace in Kensington, I know you'd kick Joralemon Street's well-bred ass on Survivor. That playground story is very funny, but you are better having it locked up it at night or it will become a nuisance real quick. By the way, has the NYPD Airbag Squad gotten back to you yet?
[The 'F' train was there when you bought your house. The Joralemon Street people are being told they have to bear a burden for no other reason than to make cranky old Howard Golden look good.]
You're assuming that there will be a burden for the people on Joralemon Street to bear. I don't see how that is necessarily the case. Having some people walk down your street on their way to a park doesn't remotely compare, say, to having a bus depot or an incinerator as your next door neighbor
(You're assuming that there will be a burden for the people on Joralemon Street to bear. I don't see how that is necessarily the
case. Having some people walk down your street on their way to a park doesn't remotely compare, say, to having a bus depot
or an incinerator as your next door neighbor)
Back on topic, this represents a form of NIMBY that I thought had been dying out or at least confined to the few remaining redneck areas of Queens...the subway rider as a menace, and the subway extension as a "highway to hell." The anti-car nuts are objecting to the parking lots people will use to access the hotel and conference center. While I don't agree with them (any traffic to those areas would be a drop in the bucket -- the jobs and amenities would not), I at least find their objections more or less rational.
But under the plan, Jorolemon St would be CLOSED to though traffic and available only to pedestrians. It is exactly people walking to/from the subway that those folks fear. And yes, the park wasn't there when they moved in, but most other people bear a far greater burden. If that is the standard (one person objecting to something as innocuous as a park) we might as well ban all public improvments for all time.
Wonder what they would say if the PA suddenly decided to renovate the piers to accept monster container ships?
No EIS needed, since the area is ALREADY a port.
-Hank
Wonder what they would say if the PA suddenly decided to renovate the piers to accept monster container ships?
I'll give you three guesses.
BTW, has the idea of running a pedestrian tunnel from the park to the subway been dropped?
(BTW, has the idea of running a pedestrian tunnel from the park to the subway been dropped? )
I'm told the park promoters are willing to consider it as an addition to, not an alternative to, the ability to walk down Jorolemon -- if it is feasible and affordable.
While Jorolemon folks are against the walk down Jorolemon, the rest of Brooklyn Heights is against an overpass and elevator at Montigue -- it would cut the panorama from the Promanade. My solution: with more commercial development, perhaps they could afford to dig under the BQE at Montigue. But no, they don't want that.
As we both know, any solution that deals with the specific objections is undesireable from the point of view of those who raised them, who desire only to maintain the status quo.
(By the way, has the NYPD Airbag Squad gotten back to you yet? )
Yes. Tuesday I filled out four forms, and was required to put the make, model, year and color of the car on each. This morning a sargent called to ask what kind of car it was.
Your tax dollars hard at work. Maybe we shouldn't put computers in the precincts and patrol cars after all. Then they might have to enter the info 6 times into 6 different systems. Pretty sad when you think about it.
Just for those who think that all things run that poorly in the NYPD, when our car was stolen in April, the process was not as disgusting and redundant. Perhaps it was because it was in a different precinct.
And it was yet another precinct that recovered the car 2 weeks later parked on a Sunset Park street with no visible damage (the only damage was the lack of an ignition).
Made one of my rare trips to Manhattan yesterday. While waiting to catch the Kawasaki R-142A on the #6 (yes, I did catch it, only a few minutes behind schedule), I was amazed at the number of Redbirds I saw on the #4 line. It was probably an anomaly, but I'll bet one out of every two #4's that I saw were Redbirds rather than Kawasaki's. Some were in the low 9200's, but most in the high 9200's. Are there more Redbirds on the #4 than usual, or did I just hit it at a time when I saw a higher percentage of Redbirds than the overall #4 fleet?
I think you hit a time when you saw more Redbirds on the 4 than usual. I have yet to ride the R142 or its eastside counterpart. Maybe this weekend........
3TM
The #4 has a distinct group of R33 cars - #9222-9223 and #9226-9305, a total of 82 cars. #9224 was lost to fire and #9225 is paired with #9130 and is on the #2 line.
wayne
What happened to 9131?
Aren't there some R36es on the 4 as well?
Mark
#9131 suffered a fire back in the LATE 60s while in service on the #6.
It was so bad, they decided not to bother to repair it, even though the car was relatively new (less than 10 yrs). Same situation with #9114, different incident. Not sure what happened to #9224.
I haven't seen any R36 (either WF or ML) on the #4. That doesn't mean they aren't there; I just haven't seen any. Perhaps someone familiar with operations at Jerome Avenue yard would know.
wayne
OOPS I goofed - #9224 is the one that had the fire; #9213 is the one I'm not sure of. It's gettin' late and I'm gettin' tired.
wayne
There are no R36 cars assigned to the # 4 line. The only lines that have the R36 cars is the 6 & 7 in reality The only line that SHOULD have the R36 cars is the 7 and NOT the 6. There were 12 R 36 cars assinged the # 4 line about 4 years ago. They were the GE cars 9558-9569. these cars are back on the 7 line. Also the # 4 lines redbirds begin at car # 9216 not 9222. The redbird cars for the 4 line are as follows : 9216-9223 9226-9305. Cars 8806-9215 & 9225 & 9130 are on the # 2 line. Regards. Tom.
If 9225 & 9130 are on the 2 line..
..sans an immediate pairing number,
where would they go in the #2 line's
recent practice of "marrying" consecutive
number cars (2/pair)?
Recent practice? The cars were DELIVERED as married pairs. When one car in a pair was damaged, they generally matched it up with a good car from another pair. So if you had cars linked like this:
1-2+3-4+5-6+7-8+10-9 and you had a fire under 3 that also damaged 2, you'd change the pairing so you'd still have one good set:
1-4+5-6+7-8+10-9+12-13
Bottom line is you lose 2 cars, not 4 if you didn't break up the pairs. (+ indicates a coupler, - indicates a linkbar)
-Hank
"DELIVERED as married pairs"... yet anytime before
June 2000 we'd see a 2 train have a consist of:
9001+9017+9154+8810+9053+8833+9116+.........
in other words the cars weren't as they are now:
9000+9001+9023+9024+9016+9017+9068+9069..
Have a look.
The question still remains what would happen to the
cars sans an immediate corresponding mate #?
Have a look where? AFAICT, those cars were delivered as married pairs. Everything from the R32(?) and up was delivered with link bars, not couplers, between the units. Coupled pairs came back from overhaul with link bars, if they weren't done any time sooner. There are several married pairs that are not consecutive, and those happen exactly as I said; one of the pair is OOS long-term, and they link it with a opposite car whose mate had fallen to a similar fate.
-Hank
I've noticed that several 2,7, and E trains seem to be going out with 4 or 6 consecutive numbers. Yardmasters having a little too much time on their hands, or some new policy?
I thought I saw #9218-19 on the #2 line back in July. I could be mistaken.
Here's one to note: THIS R33 set is running on the #6, at least it was on July 29th - it appears to be borrowed from the #2
#8914-5
#8936-7
#9072-3
#8934-5
#9012-3.
wayne
I have a picture of #9111 on the 6 line at Whitlock Avenue, while I was waiting for my first ride on an R142A.
I also haven't seen any R36'S on the No.4 Line.
Is there a photo of the NYCTA private car in this site?, if not where
can i find one?.
08/16/1000
R-29,
RE: NYCTA "Private" car.
Are referring to the Interborough Rapid transit car dubbed "MINEOLA"?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes BILL that's the one.
Check the Branford Electric Railway Association's website at: www.bera.org
There may be a photo or two of August Belmont's parlor car, "The Mineola."
Doug aka BMTman
I saw one.. in the book
"SUBWAYS of New York City"
by that fellow from the
History Channel lectures.
In the FAQ section of this site, Part VI Rolling Stock, then saved cars area the Mineola is listed, but no photo of this saved car :-(
Mr t
NIMBY's often do not make any sense, and are indeed racist bigots. Look at all these lovely examples.
1.Not enough supermarkets in my area because NIMBY's fear it will pollute the harbor in Roslyn, instead they approve building more housing. Result is roads and existing markets are overcrowded and out of stock, leaving a shortage of vital food and drug items in the area.
The NIMBY's feared it would bring more "outsiders" to Roslyn village.
2. HUB Light Rail line. Westbury and Garden City civic groups have vocally opposed building the line, because it would bring more "outsiders". Result is an unending traffic jam.
3. Main line grade crossings. The crossings present a danger to trains and traffic, it also causes more traffic. Eliminations, while lenghty, have always been better in the long run. NIMBY's fear their community will feel like the "horrible" south shore.
4.Route 107. This two lane road is always backed up, because there needs to be more lanes added, considering the cars it carries everyday. But wealthy Brookville residents claim it will "ruin" the community, another example of a few NIMBY's making us sit in un-ending backups.
5.Broadway Mall in Hicksville. This mall should've been expanded much further, but area NIMBY's feared a big mall would bring in outsiders and increase traffic. Result is new one level JC Penney has very poor sales and the mall is not doing well, it's quite empty.
6.Upstate and in city. NIMBY's and envirofreaks oppose new much needed power plants. They fear they will cause pollution, even though the new plants are state of the art gas powered. Because the special few get their way, power shortages cause price to jump, and most small businesses like the ones in Chinatown, have no A/C. Unlike last year, with no A/C it's pretty unbearable there. Result may affect store business. Many people are hurting due to high electric costs. And you can thank the NIMBY's.
And NIMBY's like to stall other stuff to, like re-opening the Landia LIRR station in Locust Grove.
NIMBY's are rich selfish bigots that show the example that a rich, powerful few control the country. The nation's wealth and power must be more evenly spread to ensure that the general good of the majority
comes before the priveledged few.
I agree with you about everything except for the hub light rail and the power plants (and your usual well red comments at the end). I'll get to the power plants later.
The Hub Light Rail, assuming it is built will be nothing more than the grand exalted leader of the great pack of Elephants... White Elephants.
Since the chances of a large majority of people arriving to shop by bus is as likely as... well... nothing is that unlikely, the only thing that this boondoggle will do is consolidate parking into a huge single area with rail connections to all of the stores. This does nothing more than make the Hub feel like an airport and divert traffic to other places. Why should somebody bother with a stupid train when they can park directly at the store of their choice elsewhere.
In addition to those deficiencies, it will make traffic worse, as the same amount of cars will be travelling to the exact same spot, even more congestion than before.
And finally, if you think that only people from Westbury and Garden City shop at the hub and there are no "outsiders" there, I have no idea what's wrong with you.
Finally, gas plants suck, they are not nearly as powerful and energy efficient as other types of plants and they also pollute more than the cleanest, best type of plant: NUCLEAR.
More nuclear plants are the answer. As for those who will come on and ask me how I'd like to have a nuclear plant in my backyard, I'd WELCOME a nuclear plant to the area.
>>>And finally, if you think that only people from Westbury and Garden City shop at the hub and there are no "outsiders" there, I
have no idea what's wrong with you.<<<
I know that there are many "outsiders" in the Hub area. I'm just saying that local NIMBY's would use that as an excuse to stop a rail project.
Roosevelt Field gets most of the people from Nassau and Queens, because it's really the only decent shopping mall in this area.
Alot of people from as far away as Flushing go to Roosevelt Field, many of them use Metrocard transfers from the N22 and N24 to connect with NYCT buses.
Sorry then.
I live farther than Flushing, near Kings Plaza (actually, it's a block away from me as the crow flies). But Kings Plaza sucks and charges for parking so we go to Roosevelt Field and vicinity too.
(I live farther than Flushing, near Kings Plaza (actually, it's a block away from me as the crow flies). But Kings Plaza sucks and charges for parking so we go to Roosevelt Field and vicinity too. )
Thank God the pro-parking crazies at City Planning wouldn't deign to go on Subtalk and won't read your post!
What would happen if they did?
Doesn't the gas to go from King's Plaza to Roosevelt Field cost more than the parking fee at King's Plaza?
But one gets a better mall.
Yeah, but its depressing to see the big lot next door that used to hold the great Roosevelt Raceway!!!
Natural gas plants to do suck. PECO energy down here in Philly converted all its primary fuel driven power plants to natrual gas and they've done fine (they have a few coal back up plants). Stil, they are not nearly as powerful and energy efficient as other types of plants and they also pollute more than the cleanest, best type of plant: HYDRO-ELECTRIC, a number of which PECO also operates along with at least 3 nuclear plants.
Hydro-electric is also a good alternative, but there are problems:
You need a big river
A very large area has to be condemned for the lake
You can only build one on each river for many miles before the next one
It makes navigation a pain in the ass (but not impossible).
Of course, building one creates a nice lake, controls seasonal flooding and allows the presence of a reservoir for water supply.
Nuclear has the disadvantage of disposing waste products until they can be used up, it has the advantage of having nuclear reactors in the skyline, which look cool.
Finally, gas plants suck, they are not nearly as powerful and energy efficient as other types of plants and they also pollute more than the cleanest, best type of plant: NUCLEAR.
What? less efficient? Huh? Never heard this - care to back that statement up somehow.
Even if nuclear is better (in some ways it is) you are going to have a bit of a nimby problem there too!!!
As for hydroelectric, a recent study found that the methane emissions from the lake above a hydro plant in brazil were so large that the hydro plant was no better (or even worse) for global warming. They found one hydro plant where the lake is ten times worse for global warming than a _COAL_ fired plant, which produced the same power as the hydro plant, would be. It does vary a lot from lake to lake. Want the reference? (Methane is emitted when vegetation rots underwater. Molecule for molecule, it is a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2.)
When you quote something, enclose it in quotes so people know what you're posting and what you're quoting.
In any case, natural gas plants do not produce as much energy as do coal and oil plants, or nuclear plants for that matter.
When building damns, all of the vegetation is mowed and plowed away. There is very little left when the lake begins to form.
Not true. In most cases, the town is condemed, and everything that would not be a surface hazard (or a contaminant if the lake is to be used to supply drinking water) is left. Many lakes formed by damns upstate have buildings on the bottoms.
-Hank
"In any case, natural gas plants do not produce as much energy as do coal and oil plants, or nuclear plants for that
matter. "
Ok, I quoted it.
First you said that natural gas plants were less _efficient._ Now you are saying they produce "less energy." I trust you realize that these are two different things?
I have never heard that natural gas power plants are less efficient. As I understand it, the newest plants are often natural gas (at least those built in the NE) and these are the most efficient there are. Thus I wonder about your assertion that they are inefficient. So I am still waiting for a reference to back up your statement.
As for them producing less energy than coal or nuclear plants...For economic reasons coal and nuke plants tend to be large. The regulation of nuke plants , and I think some engineering issues, led them to be large. Coal is going to be cheaper if you get lots and lots of it to one plant. So you build a big plant. However, there is nothing to stop you from building a really big natural gas plant. But economically it might be smarter to build a smaller one. Who cares? The issues should be cost, efficiency, and pollution, not sheer size. On the first two, coal and gas are similar. On the last one, pollution, gas has coal beat hands down. And it always will. I have no desire to debate nuke vs. gas with you - nuke has pros and cons which are difficult to compare with fossil fuels - they are much more subjective questions.
As for your statement that all the vegetation is removed before they flood the lake...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_771000/771465.stm
Hey if you don't like Sea Cliff or the rest of the north shore, then F____N MOVE!!!! I like to protect my property values and the aestheticness of my neighborhood so I must be a NIMBY (and proud) but I am certainly not a rich selfish bigot!!!
Right on Jeff!
Too many posters on this board use the term NIMBY as if only certain people fit the description. In fact, it describes a syndrome that applies to all of us.
I find it hard to believe that there is a single person who posts to this board who is so altruistic as to favor placing a sewage treatment plant right next to his/her home no matter how much the larger community needs it. The NIMBY syndrome is even stronger if you have invested a good deal of money in purchasing your property, and perceive a loss of value to your property.
So rather than complaining about selfish NIMBYs in Long Island, (or Brooklyn, or New Jersey, or anywhere else) posters should realize NIMBY is normal, and either the value of the new project to the neighborhood must be sold to the people affected, or some sort of compensation paid to them for their losses.
The classic book about NIMBYs is Max Shulman's Rally Round the Flag Boys written in the mid 50's at the height of the cold war about a small community's resistence to having a Nike anti-aircraft missile installation in their town. The book is hilarious. (The 1958 movie made from the book bombed.)
BTW, getting way off topic, last week the local newspapers had an article about the destruction of the last Nike missile bases in the Los Angeles area, and many of the residents who lived near them did not even know there had been nuclear warheads on the missiles in their neighborhoods.
Tom
[BTW, getting way off topic, last week the local newspapers had an article about the destruction of the last Nike missile bases in
the Los Angeles area, and many of the residents who lived near them did not even know there had been nuclear warheads on the missiles in their neighborhoods.]
Not all of the Nike missles had nuclear warheads. The first-generation ones, which were introduced in the early 1950's and known as Nike Ajax, had conventional warheads. It was the second generation Nike Hercules missles which were nuclear-capable. They were introduced starting at the end of the 1950's.
See this link for more information.
Peter;
Thanks for the link to the Nike site. It brought back great memories of a misspent youth when I was Nike mechanic in Germany. Our "redbirds" (named for the red mailbox like cover over the nose) packed much more of a punch than those of the NYCTA.
Tom
"Our "redbirds" (named for the red mailbox like cover over the nose) packed much more of a punch than those of the NYCTA."
You, obviously, have never gotten caught in their vice grip doors and been dragged down the platform.
Question: Were the MIM-14's a two stage missile? How about the MIM-3's?
>>> You, obviously, have never gotten caught in their vice grip doors and been dragged down the platform. <<<
That is true, and fortunately no one ever got to see the Nike Hercules "redbirds" display their power. (2-40 kilotons)
All Nikes had detachable boosters. The Ajax had one 12' diameter booster, the Hercules had four 12' diameter boosters bound together.
Tom
12 FOOT diameter boosters? The missle itself didn't look like it had a 12 foot diameter!
-Hank
[re Nike missiles]
12 FOOT diameter boosters? The missle itself didn't look like it had a 12 foot diameter!
He probably meant to say 12-inch. Nikes were pretty small.
Compared to a HAWK or Patriot the Nike's were monsters. However even they pailed in comparason to the Russian SA-4 Ganef.
Compared to a HAWK or Patriot the Nike's were monsters. However even they pailed in comparason to the Russian SA-4 Ganef.
Lack of range was the big drawback of the Nikes. IIRC, the first-generation ones had a maximum range of about 20 to 25 miles, the second-generation, nuclear ones a bit longer. Enemy bombers could get a little too close for comfort before they'd come within Nike range.
>>> Enemy bombers could get a little too close for comfort before they'd come within Nike range. <<<
Peter;
You must remember that Nikes were not the sole defense. The BOMARC was the first line of interception with a 400 mile range, followed by fighter interceptors firing air to air missiles, with the Nikes to pick off what got through the outer defenses. The Hercules range was in excess of 75 miles.
Keep in mind that the Nike was developed to counter a WWII threat. When the Russians built a clone of the B-29 (TU 4?) It was realized that American cities were vulnerable to attack from the air by planes capable of carrying nuclear bombs. Anti aircraft guns were inefficient. Post WWII studies showed that the Germans fired 16,000 rounds for each bomber shot down by flak, and 90% of bombers reached their targets. The Nike Ajax was developed to replace radar guided 90 mm anti aircraft guns, and the first missilemen were former gunners.
Tom
The Navel equilivent of the Nike, the RIM-8 Talos, was started in 1944 as a counter kamakaze weapon, project Bumblebee. The missile was finally fielded in 1958 with a liquid fueled rocket and 80 mile range.
Um, dis I miss something or when did this become MISSILETALK? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> 12 FOOT diameter boosters <<<
This was a mistake, I meant to say 12" diameter, but I have now looked up again, and it should be 16" diameter for the booster. The Ajax body had a 15" diameter.
Tom
The classic book is actually called "Windfalls and Wipeouts." It advocated compensation for the sewage treatment plant, but heavy taxes on property values that were increased as a result of public improvments.
But people walking to a park? Give me a break. I'll that those living near a new sewage treatment plant (as opposed to those moving in next to an old one then trying to get it removed to increase their property values) deserve compensation. I'm happy to pay off those near the proposed N train extension to LaGuardia.
If Jorolemon St is a private street, let them start paying property taxes on it.
I would think that towns would find less resistance to critical projects if they reinbursed people directly affected by the project. I know that host communities of landfills get free garbage pickup for for life and usually an annual cash payout. If the town needs a sewage plant or power plant next to your house you should get free sewage or power and you, being a good citizen should accept their offer with good nature and aplumb.
BTW I'd be honoured to have a Nike missile base in my town. The Nike was a damn fine missile and I'd sleep better at night knowing that I was safe from Russian attack. Did those bases in CA still have Nike missiles operating bcause I thought they went out of service in 1974 when all but 4 training batteries in Flordia were disbanded. Finally the coolest thing about a missile base is that after they close is it becomes an abandonned missile base and that's even better than an abandonned railroad line or an abandonned quarry.
[BTW I'd be honoured to have a Nike missile base in my town. The Nike was a damn fine missile and I'd sleep better at night knowing that I was safe from Russian attack. Did those bases in CA still have Nike missiles operating bcause I thought they went out of service in 1974 when all but 4 training batteries in Flordia were disbanded. Finally the coolest thing about a missile base is that after they close is it becomes an abandonned missile base and that's even better than an abandonned railroad line or an abandonned quarry.]
Nikes were useful against enemy aircraft but wholly useless against missile attack. When the USSR began building up its ICBM force, it became obvious that Nikes were obsolete. Even so, some of them stayed in use until banned by the SALT 1 treaty in 1974.
The Nike missiles (MIM-3 and MIM-14) were one of the first guided anti-aircraft missile systems in the world and eventually over 40,000 were produced. Many were sent abroad and they made up the first line aircraft defence in many NATO and Aisan countries until they were replaced by the MIM-23 HAWK system. Japan produced MIM-14C Nikes up until the early 80's under liscance. The only reason they were "banned" was because in the US they could carry a nuclear warhead and it let the Army reduce Nuclear weapons without really reducing Nuclear weapons.
Yeah, sure. Sounds like fun.
Did you live near an abandoned uranium mine or nuke plant as a child?
-Hank
I live and grew up in New Jersey. Need I say more?
It's safer over either the long run or the short run to live near a clean, safe and efficient nuclear power plant than it is to live near a dirty, stinking fossil fuel plant.
What about clean, sweet smelling plant? I took a tour of the Beesley's Point power plant near Ocean City NJ. Its a 400 MW facility with 2 .94/.06 coal/tire boilers and a heavy oil boiler. It a fairly new plant and has all the emmissions controls. The only thing it emits is CO2. It even regulates the tempature of its discharge. Global warming aside, the poeple who live nearby get inhale more pollution from route 9 and the Parkway than from the Powerplant.
This is frequently brought up to a lot of people. Old plants pollute more than new. But they object to a new plant, and the old one can't be shut down until a new one is built.
You're more at risk as a pedestrian in NYC then you are living within 5 miles of a power plant.
-Hank
Right on Jeff!
Too many posters on this board use the term NIMBY as if only certain people fit the description. In fact, it describes a syndrome that applies to all of us.
I find it hard to believe that there is a single person who posts to this board who is so altruistic as to favor placing a sewage treatment plant right next to his/her home no matter how much the larger community needs it. The NIMBY syndrome is even stronger if you have invested a good deal of money in purchasing your property, and perceive a loss of value to your property.
So rather than complaining about selfish NIMBYs in Long Island, (or Brooklyn, or New Jersey, or anywhere else) posters should realize NIMBY is normal, and either the value of the new project to the neighborhood must be sold to the people affected, or some sort of compensation paid to them for their losses.
The classic book about NIMBYs is Max Shulman's Rally Round the Flag Boys written in the mid 50's at the height of the cold war about a small community's resistence to having a Nike anti-aircraft missile installation in their town. The book is hilarious. (The 1958 movie made from the book bombed.)
BTW, getting way off topic, last week the local newspapers had an article about the destruction of the last Nike missile bases in the Los Angeles area, and many of the residents who lived near them did not even know there had been nuclear warheads on the missiles in their neighborhoods. Those same type of missiles were all around NYC also. Did you know they had nuclear warheads?
Tom
I got got back to reading my "Why do Transit Projects Cost So Much" post and it got me asking some semi-related questions. Some people said that Light Rail costs about 42 million a mile and a 1 block tunnel will cost 400 million and the 8 mile BART extention will be 750 million. I was wondering if any of you out in Subtalk land could provide us with some numbers for past Transit projects. Especially those in the 40's and 50's. Furthermore I was wondering what your average new freeway costs per mile (and why it costs so much less) or what a new Airport costs per flight-per-day. Its like today every construction project (except suburban sprall and new freeways) takes forever and costs a fortune. You can't spit with out hitting a new Freeway (I-287, NJ 55, I-476, Del Rt. 1, I-295 extention are some local examples). But transit takes forever, involves a ton of political bullshit and costs a fortune. Here's one number I could find. In 1956 a the estimated cost of an elevated transit system composing of 3 routes (Woodbury, Ashland and Moorestown) converging in Camden and then crossing the Delaware in a 4 track tunnel was 242 million or 2.4 billion adjusted for inflation. Talk about a deal!
PS: How does the cost of maintaining a freeway compare with maintaining a rail line (rolling stock excluded).
I suppose your post simply shows who's holding the good cards in this country. Like a lot of people I wish that weren't the case but it is.
Saw "Above The Law" on TV last night. The usual super hero cop baloney with some scenes where the star would have been killed in real life. But for you Chicago L fans there were several brief scenes of it, including onboard rides, in one case a 6000 type.For some reason after that scene there was a train running backwards, or wrong rail. Not sure.
Some time back I mentioned the 1947 version of "Sorry Wrong Number".Couple of nice brief train scenes, old SIRT (Shall I Run Today) cars, a High-V or two, and a Staten Island Ferry scene. I had mentioned the reference to "when the train goes over the [Queensborough] bridge" despite the fact that the last train there was 1942 and the movie made in 1947. I watched closely, and the strings of light on the bridge that were meant to be trains were on the lower level; the 2nd Ave. el was on the upper level, so it was all created effects. My question answered.
They quite possibly could have used stock footage for that bridge scene.
Most of what you see that is shot in the subway is created via some sort of special effects. Usually it involves changing the signs in the station or tight shots to avoid to much detail. One scene I remember came from a movie called "Mr. Wonderful" with Matt Dillon and Annabella Sciorri (sp?). In the final scene they meet between cars of a speeding train of R-32s and kiss. The scene was shot in Bergen St. lower level on a stationary train. The cars were rocked by TA and studio personnel to simulate the movement while fireworks were set off to simulate 3rd rail arcing.
Similarly, in the Wesley Snipes movie, "Blade" there was a scene with a train of Redbirds passing the camera at high speeds. If you looked good enough you could tell that the train was completely faked via computer graphics animation techniques.
However, a scene after that onboard the Redbird was shot on what was probably one of the LA-based R-27/30 cars left over from "Money Train".
Doug aka BMTman
Lest I forget, in special effects several years ago I saw Teengae Mutant Ninja Turtles with the kids. There was a pretty realistic scene duplicating the IRT City Hall station with what appeared to be a composite parked there. Couldn't have been real though, the parked car never moved.
You got me in the HeyPaul mode to go and watch Nighthawks again. I keep replaying the scene with the R9s to get a glimpse of the conductor hanging off the triggers. Actually Jacob's ladder wouldn't be a bad bet either but there are no real special effects in that one. I just like R10s. Any other movies out there with R10 cars?
I can't think of any but just thought of "Ghost".Pretty cute story and a lot of subway action, maybe not a lot but enough. You'll note in one scene the ride on an R38 A train [or R32] suddenly becomes the Broadway coming out of the tunnel at Dyckman.
sorry but I never meant this as a racial or ethnic or cultural etc..
""anti slur""...
Its just that we are so G.D. mad at how the city of LOST ANGELES L.A.
( los angeles ) with a failed transit plan ( no blue line usage )
draining all of us working poor those of us who live near the taxpayer corporate welfare funded ""stapeled center"" etc...
In the excess of over 4 four million dollars ( like philly ) they raped us of our taxpayer funding that shouldf have gone to transit streets city services & we could go on & on etc..
so the DEMONCRATIC COONS show up & suck Lost Angeles dry of what little funds remain !!
& ( on topic ) once again a 100% failed transit non-plan
The downtown businesses hotels apartments either are prisoners in thier homes or boarded up & vacant the bus lines in caos & downtown deserted and abandoned. They gave orders to the apartment owners across the streets to not open thier windows during the COONVENTION??
So I am sorry folks but it looks like rocky the racccon to me !!
( slang ) thankz salaam allah
Do you ever read what you write before you click on the "Post Message" button? Ah, the power of the Internet.
[so the DEMONCRATIC COONS show up & suck Lost Angeles dry of what little funds remain]
I don't usually respond to your drivel, but **do you have any idea what the term "coon" means??**
I guess he doesn't. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
because old to got on my case...
I changed it ( the name ) to demoncratic-counvention It was in part
our anger at how the people who live around the taxpayer paid
"STAPELED" center was not handled, robbing us working poor stiffs in
excess of over 4 million dollars plus. The blue line metro rail
station ( pico station see my shots in the la rail section ) not used
& just like the dumbo elephants of philadelphia we were left with
holding the bill ( the tab ) when these couns left !!
what do you think about my tag 142s armadillos ??
Broken rail appears to have been the culprit...
BROKEN RAIL WAS CAUSE
Peace,
ANDEE
The (formerly Camden, now South Jersey) Courier-Post has an
editorial today complaining about the Delaware River Port Authority using bridge toll money to join Philadelphia and Pennsylvania in giving personal perks to the wealthy European owners of Kvaerner ASA, which was enticed by millions of tax dollars to take over part of the shut-down Philadelphia Naval shipyard for building ships and providing employment.
The Daily News is reporting that the bus drivers want their own local. I'm all for it. Any monopoly will rip you off sooner of later, and as last year's stike threat struck home, the TWU is a monopoly.
Now if we can just divide up the A and B divisions of the subway, we might bet some real competition out there.
I don't think splitting up the A and B divisions will make any difference, the industrial union setup should be replaced with a craft setup instead. The B division runs a different set of policies than the IRT and I'll give you an example. While I was transferring from the B to the A divisions, I ended up working extra list when the B division pick went into effect, this being because I did not have a picked job there. I also had to wait to be retrained for the IRT and in the neantime, was assigned to various yard jobs. In the C.B.A., I am supposed to get top road pay, even if I work the yards, while working the list. I was promptly transfered to school car and after qualification, awaited the start date of that pick, now working the list in the A division. Note the days I worked the yards in the IRT, I did get full road pay. My first grievance I ever won at the first step hearing. Anyway, the craft setup would be nice as a train operator would not be held back during negotiations because a station department employee has not given up their shirts off their backs. We'd all be gunning for separate contracts, individual needs and safety concerns can be addressed, and morale may be boosted within the rank and file because we will not be on the same pedestal being compared with those with different skills. To achieve this, we would have to succeed through a process known as decertification, a process that would leave us without union representation for a year, cost Sonny Hall millions in international dues from the local, as well as various other headaches including the loss of jobs and legal fees to fight to keep them. Labor relations could run rampid trying to fire those at top pay, those in the union (look at Roger Toussant) and discpline known union leaders in the field. We need to sit down and change our own behaviors before we can force the union to do the same.
IIRC each craft had a division within local 100. On another note I transferred back and forth a few times from B to A Div's and back and nevr had any such thing as you did. Of course that was 25 years ago.Actually 1970-75. I did have to qualify on the IRT lines the first time but received full pay doing it.
Unfortunately unions have lost a lot of strength and support in the last 20 years. I belonged to the TWU, then the UTU on the BN; on Montana Rail Link I was BLE before and after promotion to engineer. BLE represented all operating people on MRL. The BLE got us good wages and benefits but I felt they were the weakest union I ever belonged to if you needed help.Meaning were disciplined. The TWU is as good as any, I have no gripes with them and only one with the UTU.In this day and age anyone who has a good paying union job needs to be grateful...there isn't much to compare on the outside unless you have a hell of an education or skills that arein demand.
I agree in general that since Reagon, all unions have lost their power but in retrospect, the BLE is stronger because of their membership's willingness to do their work when called for. They don't have to represent their membership the way the TWU has to represent theirs. For example, I ran into the shop steward at the MMC, or the NJT Meadows Maintainance Complex (still called the Mickey Mouse Club) a few years back ripping into a lazy worker the way a manager would here. The difference is these lazy workers are far and few when it comes to railroad hiring. The FRA certificate is the job security here. If you are professional about your position, you are doing the UNION'S work. Neither the railroad nor the union want to have slackers. Our union on the other hand spends large amounts of time representing those who have little comprehension to rulebook particulars, safety and other factors. In part because of Civil Service, as well as the TA's desire to cut corners, such as the sharply reduced training periods for RTO hires. It is commonly said that the workers down here do better without union representation at hearings because the reps are incompetant. I say that if you can get yourself out of a bind, it is because you did your job properly and know how to communicate that to others listening at a hearing. You are only as good as your last move.
[It is commonly said that the workers down here do better without union representation at hearings because the reps are incompetant.]
That's an age old problem with the local TWU folks vs. the set up with other unions.
- The good point is you can vote them out if there not doing the job.
- The bad point is that they have no experience when they come into the job. So, if you have a big/strong company Labor Relations dept. who has folks with legal training or lots of experience it is very hard for a newbie, i.e. mngt. will take advantage of them, particularly the strong ones because if they make them look bad they go by by at the next election.
As a Teamster I got plunty of training from the senior guys in the union and therefore became a big pain in mngt's ass right away.
When I went into mngt. they sent be to charm school to make me NICE and tough ;-)
Mr t
(- The good point is you can vote them out if there not doing the job. )
Get real, and explain that to a member of Local 375 DC 37. The votes are fixed. You are forced to join the union in pay $660 per year in exchange for getting hired; the union spends part of it on themselves and kicks back part of it to the pols in campaign contributions.
Our local? A renegade (admittedly a bit of a nut) challenged the leadership. The ballots disappeared. An arbitrator was brought in to re-do the election. The renegade won in a massive "up yours" vote. Then he became a pain in the conspiracy's side, so the national union removed him. DC37? Half the leaders are on their way to jail.
I showed up at a meeting and asked if the union leadership was still stealing. They said no. I asked if our dues could be reduced by the amount previously stolen. They said no.
And what is it that our union does when it is actually doing something? Two tier contracts, sweatened by a general assumption that public employees will pretend to work, and public employers won't even pretend to pay competitive salaries.
Could the TWU be any worse than this?
I was talking about the local Shop Steward's, i.e. in the shop, operators on the line, like the Transit Proffesional. The "board" crew is another matter.
BTW, What did you expect when you asked "I showed up at a meeting and asked if the union leadership was still stealing." Ask for a financial statement, and audit report, or get the International interested in checking them out. But to just throwing rocks from the audience ain't going to upset them. As I said earlier, I gave my union some serious grief, but they didn't know where it was coming from, well they had a name of a member .... I'm not going to say more.
The point is, yelling from the audience ain't doing to do anything, if you realy want to change things you've got to spend some serious time and hook up with some friends, e.g. New Directions. Now I have no idea if they are any better then the group in power, but at least they are making a serious effort to change things. My goal was never to hurt anyone, or even kick them out of office (they weren't doing that bad of a job), but they starting to move in the wrong direction & a group of us wanted to get them back on course. We got their attention and things were better.
Mr t__:^)
Your experiences sound a LOT like the TWU. We have elected officers who never seem to be defeated dispite widespread member disatisfaction. We have money missing: the Local just took a $2 million loan to supplement the $15 million in annual dues. Management runs rampant over our contract and nothing ever seems to change. Now at last that it looks like the opposition group might actually win, the International's President; Sonny Hall want's to take his ball and go home. Read my earlier post on that one.
The lawsuit filed by the "New Directions" member against the TA/TWU contract (Re; Car Equipment workrules)has yet to be heard. The TA asked the TWU to stand with it against the lawsuit as it would negate at least part of the Collective bargaining Agreement the TWU ratified. Suprisingly, Sonny Hall sent out a letter to the Rank-and-File, severely critical of the TA's implimentation of the negotiated work-rule changes.
Clearly, this was not the TWUs lawsuit.
The TWU agreed to the workrule changes when they ratified the contract.
It seems that Sonny Hall has directly challanged the vote of local 100 members.
Is this bargaining in 'Bad Faith'?
No wonder local 100 members are so fed up!!!
I need to point out that the "deal" wasn't even negotiated between the union's DEC VP but between Local 100 Sec-Treas Dennis Calhoun and Authority SVP Joe Hoffman. After they had ironed out the basic program they brought in CMO Carlo Percibali and his union counterpart Arnold Cherry along with Ralph Agritelly the TA's Labor realtions chief.
This was sold as a bill of goods to the membership and unfortunately they believed it.
It's nothing new for Sonny Hall and his cronies to negotiate things which the membership of this union is clearly opposed to. OPTO was just such an occurence.
You are right about a lot of things. Things have tightened up quite a bit in the Freight railroad industry and one must respect their job, especially engineers. [Sometimes one's last move WAS a mistake or oversight, despite mostly everything they do being good,BTW] I have too many memories of my days on the BN in the late 70's where too many trainmen and sorry, but true engineers reported in an unfit condition, and too many that fudged on operation by the rules to get OTR faster, etc. Likewise one of the reasons BN wanted so badly to eliminate the Livingston shop, not only for downsizing was that there were so many slackers.[OTOH in all the above there were many good people too], It wasn't Civil Service hiring, it was pure political, most people were hired because of relatives or close friends within the system, and a lot of people hung on because Daddy or Uncle had a lot of pull and could go over the local bosses' heads.
You guys do digress! Does anyone else remember an emergency evacuation sticker for the trains in just Spanish? Of course,
there was one in just English.
I need to know if I'm searching for something that never existed or
not. Perhaps it was alway a bi-lingual sticker!
Wednesday's Inquirer has a story about a woman (Drexel ChE major) being the victim of a random knife attack while waiting for the Market Street subway at 30th Street at 1 PM Monday. She was assisted by SEPTA cashier's booth employees until police arrived. The perp was caught.
[Wednesday's Inquirer has a story about a woman (Drexel ChE major) being the victim of a random knife attack while waiting for the Market Street subway at 30th Street at 1 PM Monday. She was assisted by SEPTA cashier's booth employees until police arrived. The perp was caught.]
She's lucky it didn't happen in New York. Note how the article said the victim received immediate attention at the cashier's booth. Had this happened in New York, the token clerks would have remained cowering behind their bulletproof glass while the victim lay bleeding outside. All to protect, at most, a couple thousand dollars.
I used the nearby 34th St. station every day this summer at about 2PM and I always felt safe. The token guys usually had their door open and down on the platform I would hang out on the very end with out any crazies comming up and trying to stab be.
30th St (both Amtrak and El) seems to have become a gathering point for vagrants, etc for some reason. Perhaps the Republican Convention has caused many of them to be pushed out of Center City. I've noticed this a few times in my travels. I don't spend a whole lot of time at the Amtrak station but I have noticed this when I pass through there occasionally. It was particularly evident to me last March during a local NRHS fan trip on the Regional Rail lines, which involved two layovers at 30th. The men's room was strewn with the stuff left behind by the homeless and several of them were wandering around the food court area, some mumbling to themselves, others just wandering, watching for people to discard something they could eat or otherwise use.
That surprises me. I've used that station at all hours(very early and very late) and always felt safe.
That surprises me. I've used that station at all hours(very early and very late) and always felt safe.
Up until a few motnhs ago, I used the stations with great frequency. You can get attacked anywhere but 30th St wouldn't be at the top of the list.
Walked out the north stair of the BMT Chambers St station today. The place is still partially blocked off, and is still mostly a wreck, but at least you can exit into Foley Square.
what gives with this station???
What a mess. They are spending money to renovate outer borough stations with less traffic and letting this one rot away. Are they not planning to renovate, or is it going to fall on our heads??
Maybe they want to see if they can top Ellis Island in terms of scale of renovation.:-)
Next thing you know, people who use Chambers Street will have to leave a DNA sample, so in the event of a collapse the body parts can be identified :-)
I'm guessing that the MTA is waiting for the final decision to go ahead and turn the Nassau Loop into a two-track line, using the two westernmost tracks to eliminate the sharp curve between Fulton and Chambers, and are hoping the station holds up until the project is greelighted.
Never do today what you can put of until tomorrow :-)
I doubt Chambers St would be reduced to only 2 tracks. It would require massive construction to bring the now southbound "express track" up to grade with the incoming northbound track from Fulton St., while also negating the station as a useful terminal. reducing it to 2 tracks/1 platform from The Bowery thru Canal makes sense.
BTW, does anyone know what the track configuration was like south of Chambers before the Nassau St part was built (opened in 1931)?
Personally, I would rather see them restore the entire station to its original look of 85 years ago, but don't put it past the MTA to wall off the eastern half of Chambers Street and only do renovations on the western side, a la Canal Street. It would take away the ability to use it as a terminal during weekdays, but the low level of service on weekends would still allow them to keep Fulton and Broad closed.
All you need for a terminal are double crossovers, or a single switch south of the station (trains discharge on one side, receive on the other). If they're going through the trouble of walling off half the station, they may as well throw those in. Or, they could turn the trains at Broad, skipping Fulton and Broad in both directions, but it would be odd hearing and seeing trains go by without stopping. If they're doing that, they might be pressured to open Fulton on weekends.
I'd like to see the Nassau St line as the southern extension of the Second Avenue line. It is well located and (passenger-wise) under-used. Some of the Willie B trains could run up 6th Avenue to make room.
I made a similar proposal a LONG time ago. What I envisioned was the Nassau St line feeding into a 4 track 2nd Ave. line, with the old MAnhattan Bridge "tail" track being curved northbound and into an expanded Grand St station, with 6th Ave trains in the middle tracks and new Second Ave local tracks on the outside. These tracks would then continue up Chrystie St, joining with the tracks coming off the Williamsburgh bridge, which would turn northward and meet the tracks coming from Grand St at Houston and 2nd Ave, thus creating a 4 track line, with Willy B trains running as expresses and trains coming up from Nassau St running as the local. This would integrate the 2nd Ave. line into the Flatbush Ave. corridor thru Dekalb and it would give today's J/M/Z riders a direct route into midtown. With the Archer Ave. connection, the J line would also be an alternative way to get into midtown over the heavily used E line, thus providing transit upgrades to Manhattan, Brooklyn AND Queens.
Broad St. could handle the load of turning both the J and M lines during the week. A scissors crossover can be used to terminate J trains on weekends when no thru service would interrupt this.
What creates problems here is the difference of grade that the northbound and southbound tracks south of Chambers and the problems it creates on halving this station. The southbound express track, which would become the northbound track should the station be reduced to one platform, starts to descend to a lower grade about two-thirds of the way into the station. MAjor construction would be necessary to raise this track from where it starts to lower up to the level of the incoming northbound track from Fulton St. No such problems like this exist at Canal St.
Wayne showed me this station on my last tour. It is so sad to see the whole place go to ruin. It must have looked great in the 20's/30's
Something major will need to be done soon. Does anyone have any photos of what it looked like in it's hayday.
My father told me what it was like in the late 1940's, when he got his first job working for the NY Post. Even then, half the lights were broken, the side platforms were cluttered with junk, and there was a TREMENDOUS bottleneck of trains all coming into Chambers from both the MAnhattan and Williamsburgh bridges. Back then he lived in Flatbush and used some sort of Brighton/Nassau St service.
The Daily News has a artile today by Peter Donohue. I lifted the following few lines:
"A petition is circulating to have workers in the bus divisions of Local 100 form a separate organization from subway workers.
..................
A member of the New Directions (subway) dissident union faction, however, said high-ranking local leaders are behind the push because they fear New Directions is poised to take over the local in elections
scheduled for late this year."
BTW, The "private" TWU bus workers have effectively been a seperate local for some time now, even though some our their officials sit on the main Local 100 board (I'm not sure of the number, but I know of at least one who does).
Copyright disclaimer: Have quoted less then 400 words & identified the publication & author.
Mr t__:^)
For those who are hoping for a 'New Directions' take-over of Local 100, I suggest you read the classic novel, "Animal Farm" by George Orwell. "All pigs are created equal - but some are more equal than others!"
PLEASE, PLEASE don't start quoting Animal Farm...Pigs does it enough already.
-Hank :)
Today I was told by my operators on the M42/50 and M104 that petitions were circulating throughout the depot today for this split.
Looks like major problems are in the future for Local 100.
The Local has had this type of problem before although not in recent years. In RTO the anger at the misrepresentation has festered for some time now.
Motormen and Conductors look at the other rail carriers in the area and see higher wages, far superior working conditions and particuarly in the case of conductors zealously guarded work rules. OPTO the loss of work on the revenue collector and refuse and work trains, a never ending encroachment of employee rights and a management which operates by constant harrasment, intimidation and abuse. I could go on for quite a while there but in a nut shell TWU has failed miserably as a union. The outrage is justified.
Seeing the easy way out toward better representation by what would be PERCIEVED as union leaders who would be more responsive to their needs is what drives those members who sign that petition. It's felt that a union president who is a motorman or a car inspector has to be more undertanding of the conditions and events that drive the needs and desires of his membership. The members in the surface divisions have enjoyed this for a generation. All the top leaders of the Local have come from the busses for decades now. The bitterness that exists between the two groups is largely based on that. Having a majority on the Local's executive board and those persons seated owing allegience to the president has created a dictatorial atmosphere where the members in the subway divisions feel demoralized and disenfranchised.
That has lead to concessionary contracts and the steady erosion of worker's rights. Members in the operating departments particularly Conductors have felt the union was useless and their grievances ignored. Since RTO never voted for the establishment union leadership the leadership never cared how we fared.
It's not surprising this petition originated in MaBSTOA considering the recent revalations about the current leadershp's financial abuses. MaBSTOA is their power base. The members there actually believe the bull that comes out of 80 West End Av. The growing momentum of the New Directions caucus scares Sonny Hall and his hand picked succesor to Willie James: MaBSTOA V.P.Gil Rodriguiez. For the first time the swing votes in TA surface will likely vote New Directions. Management there has been particualrly abusive there in the last few years. Combined with the terrible provisions of their section of the contract, which they as a group voted against yet had forced upon them by the Local's arcane (and undemocratic) election rules...no, the game is over.
Sonny Hall cannot allow his people to loose their cushy union jobs. For him to break the faith with them would assure that he and his succesors would never be able to command loyalty again. He must keep their seats safe. His options include putting the Local into financial reccievership (an option long planned for by keeping the Local deliberately in the red) or splitting the Local. That it was his own hand picked people responsible for the money mess has lead him to choose option two. Splitting the Local. Sonny Hall has done this to troublesome Locals before. Whenever the opposition to his cronies appears to be making inroads he has split that Local to save seats.
Looking at the entire picture these conclusions are readily apparent: MaBSTOA has always been a bastion of Sonny Hall, for a movement to split the Local in a division which has been far more content than the others speaks loudly about it's motives.
The growing support for the New Directions caucus is the prime motivator for this. Most members in MaBSTOA are fairly happy with the union, in stark contrast to the subway divisions. It would be much more likely that a genuine movement to split the Local would have started there.
MaBSTOA members need the subway members in their local union much more than the reverse. For instance a bus driver can be hired from the classfied ads ready trained and licenced. Try that with a motorman. Likewise a diesel mechanic and a signal maintainer. The members in MaBSTOA would be fools if the follow Sonny Hall. Mr. Hall and his cronies have repeatedly shown to put their own interests ahead of the membership of this union. The regional bus section of this last contract was merely a precursor to this attempt to split the Local.
As for New Directions, yes there are a few members of the group who believe in the socialist agenda. But they do not represent the majority and as a demoratic group have but one vote per person. Roger Toussant is the group's nominated candidate for president. I know the man personally; his skills as a leader and ability to challenge Authority Management are legendary. It's his candidacy which spurrs this entire discussion.
My own opinions are if we must remain under this corrupt leadership where subway divisions suffer through misrepresentation and undemocratic union structrues, then so be it: split the Local. Only then can we have the autonomy neccesary to fight management and preserve what little we have left. But if the Local can remain united and New Directions can win, then all of us in Local 100 can benifit through the strength of 33,000 members. The combined buying power of 33,000 members in purchasing insurance. The numbers to command attention in Albany when we need legislation or if neccesary to shut this city down to demand justice against a vicious and cruel Transit Authority management.
[... The combined buying power of 33,000 members in purchasing insurance. The numbers to command attention in Albany when we need legislation or if neccesary to shut this city down to demand justice against a vicious and cruel Transit Authority management.]
TA management would probally like to see Local 100 split. Just look at the last time the "privates" wanted to go out, the TA group with held their support, and the members lost parity, a win for Rudy and the riding public. I give Rudy a lot of credit for pushing it, he could have backed off, but didn't have to.
I believe that the union & company have to be equally strong otherwise one leans on the other until they give in. Should the union get too strong the MTA will cry to Albany, if mngt. is too strong or the union gets too weak the public/politations doesn't care so it's up to the members to do something. Just look at firms/industries that have gone non-union because of this weakness ... can you say McJobs ?
Disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself and not my employeer, the MTA, TA or nycDOT.
Mr t__:^)
"The Local has had this type of problem before although not in recent years. In RTO the anger at the misrepresentation has festered for some time now."
I returned to Conccourse Yard in September 1999. In October of 1999, I drafted a memo about the inadequate facilities at Bedford Park Blvd. Station. Those facilities are shared by DCE & RTO. They are dirty and crowded but despite numerous requests, the TWU never joined me in fighting for better facilities for its members. Perhaps this is because the upper leadership has, in recent history, always come from surface or perhaps they don't want to be seen as joining forces with management on any issue.
In any event, the final design for the new facilities were due today. I don't mind taking due pride and credit for the new locker rooms, lunch room, supervisor's office and storage for DCE & RTO. Too bad the TWU didn't join the effort. Based on their performance for their members in the bronx, I can say I understand the anger of the Rank and File.
I thought that those facilities at BPB station were relativly new.
There was a bunch of construction there about 8 yrs. ago (A/C etc.). Have the facilities deteriorated that much in a short period of time??
Peace,
ANDEE
Depends on what you consider deteriorated. The demographics have changed in the last few years. The female locker situation is inadequate for starters. One or two commodes for over 200 people seems inadequate too. Things could be a lot better and shouldbe.
I see
In Baltimore we are starting to get the same feelings from the rail (subway and Light Rail) folks. They are starting to want to split into a new ATU division, as they feel that Division 1300 is totally dominated by the bus side, and in fact ALL the officers of 1300 are all from the bus side, and have been for many years.
We've had rail since 1983, and Light Rail came in 1992, so the rail displeasure has had almost 20 years to grow.
So far, the International has been cool to a new ATU division, but that may change. Dissention is growing, with many rail people chafing of paying dues month after month, but getting little support from 1300.
We shall see. Stay tuned.
Both Thurston and the Traindude have summed up nicely what I tried to explain. The coming months look to be quite entertaining!
Go to this link to see transit new in NYC.
http://www.ny1.com/NewsBeats/transit.html
Talk about 'Demolition' with cheese..
You sometimes overhear interesting things on the train. While riding the LIRR this morning, I heard two women sitting behind me carrying on a rather thought-provoking conversation. They were in their early to middle forties and seemed to be slight acquaintances, not actually friends. One of the women said that she was going to spend a week at the end of August visiting her married daughter who lived in suburban Nashville. She said that she liked the area and was looking forward to the trip.
Her companion then asked if she had any plans to move to the area permanently. No, said the first woman, that wasn't advisable because of the job situation. She went on to explain that jobs were plentiful in Nashville, with an unemployment rate around two percent, but most of what was available were low-paying service jobs. She said that $10 an hour was considered a good wage. The woman then started talking about the advertising industry; from what I had already gathered, she held a professional-level job in that field. She said that most of the advertising jobs in Nashville had been lost when the local agencies were acquired by larger agencies. As a result, she said that she would stay in New York despite liking Nashville.
So this got me thinking. It's almost as if New York and Nashville represent diametrically opposite types of urban economies. In New York, unemployment is high, but the jobs that are available pay quite well. By contrast, in Nashville, jobs are plentiful but don't pay too much. Looked at on the macro level (as individual circumstances will vary), which is the better development model? Is it really better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush?
(It's almost as if New York and Nashville represent diametrically opposite types of urban economies. In New York, unemployment is high, but the jobs that are available pay quite well. By contrast, in Nashville, jobs are plentiful but don't pay too much. Looked at on the macro level (as individual circumstances will vary), which is the better development model? Is it really better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush? )
This implies that the lack of low wage jobs causes the abundance of high wage jobs, or vice versa. New York was as much the home of high wage employment in 1960 (or 1900) as it is today. But it also had plenty of low-wage jobs, and its labor force participation rate was well above the national average.
The only factor that could lead to high wage jobs driving out low wage jobs is a shortage of space or housing. But we have plenty of housing occupied by people who don't work, and plenty of industrial areas that could be used more intensively.
Let me respond by giving a personal example. Before I moved to New York, I worked for a time in a smaller city 4 hours to the west while saving $$ to move here. There I held a temporary job as a data-entry clerk at $8/hr. When I got to New York, I was persuing a private business venture which necessitated my having a temp job here too. Logically, I took my out-of-town resume to a temp agency in the city and had no trouble booking temp work, as corporations looove temps, who don't cost them as much as the full-time help to do the more menial short-term administrative projects. Win for me, win for them. More win for me, I thought, because data-entry work in New York pays a whopping $10 - $12/hr! In fact, eventually I moved up the scale, gaining training to become a "word processor" and maxing out the temp scale at $20/hr. by the time I "sold-out" and found a permanent job.
In my former home, a small Pennsylvania city, I could have lived on my own in a modest apartment on that salary of $8/hr. It would not have been a palace, but I would have had plenty of my own space, a simple commute, and money to spare. In New York, in order to live the same on the comparable $15/hr. wage, I would have had to make major sacrifices on space, commute, and the minor things like food. So, like most young, single people who move to New York from the heartlands, I had roomates (yes, that's plural). And we were in Queens, not Manhattan.
I think the main thing here is not so much the type of jobs differing between NYC and places like Nashville, but rather the differences in cost-of-living between the 2 cities. New York's high cost-of-living has many causes besides the ratio of low paying service jobs to high paying white collar jobs. I hesitate to elaborate on this point, lest I fuel another political debate a la the recent NIMBY threads.
However, I can tell you from personal experience that it would be impossible to simulate a Nashville lifestyle in New York without an exponential increase in income. It's been years since I moved here, and I have been living the so-called American Dream, improving my income every year. With the money my wife and I make now, we could live in a "palace," if we weren't in the tri-state area. But she and I have decided that, for now, the benefits of living in New York outweigh the hardships. We are sacrificing the white picket fence, but benefitting from the rich culture and diversity the city has to offer. Let me emphasize that this is a choice. Somewhere down the road, we may choose another path and different sacrifices. Fortunately, we are both resourceful people who can adapt to different environments. We also realize that no one place is perfect.
This is why I thank God every day for the subway. It's not perfect by any stretch, but it allows me greater choice on which of those sacrifices I make in order to live a modestly comfortable life. For example, it allows me to save time commuting, giving me more time with my family. It precludes me from having to break my bank account to maintain a car. Without it, living in New York City would be just about unbearable, if not impossible for those of us who are not the least fortunate, but not the most fortunate either. I'll go back on my first thought, and risk injecting politics here, but given that this summer has been one of political conventions, I often wonder if the candidates can see people like me through all the money flowing to them from groups of people made up of those who are not so much like me.
[I think the main thing here is not so much the type of jobs differing between NYC and places like Nashville, but rather the differences in cost-of-living between the 2 cities. New York's high cost-of-living has many causes besides the ratio of low paying service jobs to high paying white collar jobs.
However, I can tell you from personal experience that it would be impossible to simulate a Nashville lifestyle in New York without an exponential increase in income.
This is why I thank God every day for the subway. It's not perfect by any stretch, but it allows me greater choice on which of those sacrifices I make in order to live a modestly comfortable life. For example, it allows me to save time commuting, giving me more time with my family. It precludes me from having to break my bank account to maintain a car. Without it, living in New York City would be just about unbearable, if not impossible for those of us who are not the least fortunate, but not the most fortunate either.]
I certainly can't deny that the subway has been vital for NYC's development. And it's surely been a Godsend for most city residents. But if we consider the city's huge population below and near the poverty line, then the subway's benefits are IMO a decidedly mixed bag.
On the positive side, the subway provides relatively inexpensive mobility that's far better than what would be found in most cities. Living in Nashville if you can't afford a car must be a very difficult existence indeed. Mass transit in most places just doesn't do the trick. On the other hand, it's also possible that NYC's excellent transit system acts as sort of a crutch for many of the poor. In other words, people who don't have the skills or education to get the types of jobs available in NYC may be more or less obliged to stay here, unable to better themselves, because they won't be able to function in places like Nashville where jobs are plentiful but cars are an absolute necessity (and Nashville surely isn't the only Sunbelt city like that). Instead of finding jobs in Nashville and hopefully improving their lots in life, the less-educated and unskilled remain in NYC, surviving on welfare, fraudulent disability claims and social services.
On the other hand, it's also possible that NYC's excellent transit system acts as sort of a crutch for many of the poor. In other words, people who don't have the skills or education to get the types of jobs available in NYC may be more or less obliged to stay here, unable to better themselves, because they won't be able to function in places like Nashville where jobs are plentiful but cars are an absolute necessity (and Nashville surely isn't the only Sunbelt city like that).
I recognize that I am lucky in this regard. Unlike the poor you mention, I am fortunate to have the skills which give me the luxury of mobility. Where I chose to move to New York from "the provinces," many do not have the choice to do the opposite. Regardless, I still think the subway helps both them and me by decreasing the competition for limited roadspace. Even if I had a car, I wouldn't dream of using it to commute to work in Manhattan. Friends of mine in Queens do have cars, yet mostly use the subway for day-to-day travel.
I usually put it this way. In New York City, you can do more (services). In other places, you can afford to have more stuff (here, where space is expensive, there would be no place to put it). Nashville can't have what New York has, either.
Moreover, I find that the cost of living in New York is actually lower. Don't have a car unless you have young kids. Live in the outer boroughs. Take advantage of all the free and low cost things to do. I have a lot more money in the bank than I would if I lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where my brother and his family now live. You know what? Aside from the cost of his house, I spend less than he does on just about everything.
The cost of living depends on so many factors, including family size (got older teens in the house -- outside NYC that means one or two extra cars, plus insurance) which tends to work in NYC's favor. Working against it are things like food costs, housing (unless you're rent controlled) and the added burden of city, state and federal income taxes.
New York's not alone in this problem. Washington D.C., San Francisco and Los Angeles also have housing costs through the roof (My uncle likes to brag about my cousin's $700,000 house in Marin County, but he can't sell it, because he could never afford to buy anything nearly as nice anyplace near S.F.), with the lots of people living around D.C. opting for Virginia over Maryland due to the lower tax rates.
The last poster said that outside NYC he'd have the costs of teenagers cars'. Well being a senior in HighSchool here's the teen perspective: Where I live you need a car. I currently am not driving because I have to wait until November when my insurance will go down (if i have no traffic violations between now and then the judge will purge my record of the speeding tickets and other moving violations i have now). My insurance would be 240 were I paying it now. Come November it'll be 105 (assuming i don't hit any more telephone poles). Now the scoop: I am probably in the minority but I wish I didn't have to drive everywhere. Driving is fun in the country. Driving is fun on a lot of roads. But sitting in South Seattle traffic, or traffic on Meridian. I live in the midst of sprawl, 90% of which is built in the last 10-15 years. For 80,000 people, there are only three through roads to the freeway or points beyond. 122nd is a two lane with four way stops - EVERY stop jams up for about a mile or more behind it at rush hour. Canyon Road is a four-lane that runs for 3 miles without stoplights because it is about a half-mile over from where all the development stops. It's not divided (in fact the actual road width is only 38 feet), but lefts onto it are impossible - you must turn right and then left into a parking lot or driveway. When it's not jammed people speed-demon it, usually 65-70 (sl is 45). The third road is Meridian, a four-lane plus center "suicide" turn lane. the VAST MAJORITY of traffic takes this because it is the only commercial strip, therefore all the local shopping traffic going to our mall or any of the various stripmalls shares it with the thru traffic - it is jammed in the morning, and then nonstop from about 11:30 to 8:30pm. It's not fun. On the 5-mile trip from my house to the mall, I can get there about twice as fast if I take my bike and ride on the paved shoulders (sidewalks exist in precious few places here in suburbia). Getting to school is not a big deal, I do my morning classes at a community college 15 miles away which means I can use Canyon and go 65-70 with everyone else (except that one day when I was late for a math test - part of the reason I am waiting til November). There are only a few different destinations for a teenager who isn't involved in sports...
SCHOOL
MALL
FRIEND'S HOUSE
DATE
if i am going to the mall i have to drive or take the bus, riding a bike messes up my hair so i look like a freak. Any friend's house I can take a bike, my friends respect me on my bike (mainly because they know all of the crazy stunts I've pulled like riding it the wrong way around freeway interchanges and passing trucks going downhill on Canyon, etc. etc.). So they don't mind if I take 30 seconds to fix my hair or just look like a freak for a while. School is no problem, if i can't drive (like this coming sept. and oct.), I can bumm rides with friends or (eGAD!) my Mom (no one has to know). The fourth is the REAL reason teens need a car. Without a car you can't date. End of story. Automobiles are integral to the ritual of adolescent courtship. Problem is I do'nt have one right now. NOW- I have cousins in NYC who take the subway all the time on dates. Usually not the buses (considered "scrubby") but the Subway works fine. My friends in Portland also use the "MAX" Light Rail on dates - but not Portland's extensive bus system. MAX serves two movie theaters in the suburbs and downtown, including the rose garden arena (where concerts are). The far end of it is my friend Chris, who has had sex in the back of a MAX train while it was laying over at about midnight at the end of the line and the driver was out havin' a smoke. I hear the same thing from my peeps in SF. The moral is, you can't take the bus on a date but ANY train is okay. Now here we go. I live withing walking distance of Meridian. So do most girls I know (although my current girlfriend lives over an hour and a half away, it's a long distance thing). So the moral is this. The density here in suburbia is way too low to support any NYC-style subways, els, or open-cut heavy rail (a la brighton). But I daydream of an LRT on Meridian that I could take to the theaters, the mall, and that would hook up with our commuter rail station in downtown that is opening in September (of course we would need ALL DAY SERVICE instead of this crappy two trains in the morniing two out in the evening and one each way on saturdays for mariners games). In short I would MUCH rather live in the city. Besides, going back to dating, there is a larger pool of people within x distance from your place of residence with a higher density. In short dating is EASIER in a city enviroment. Where would I like to live? NYC of course. I don't care if I get roomates in the ghetto, if life was perfect I'd marry my best girl friend (not my girlfriend) L.D. and move to NYC...and if we had kids to Portland Oregon because I love it there. I hate suburbia, as much as I like the Home Depot and Taco Bell I'm really not going to miss it when I go off to college at Washington State - a land-grant school in the farming town of Pullman, known mainly for having WSU there - with WSU being the only state school within 5 miles of Idaho where the drinking age is 19. In short the country, while still being dependnet on cars to go long distances, is better than suburbia but the city is best.
Not Seattle though.
I hate Seattle.
Once I'm gone i'm NOT coming back i don't care how much rail we have
this crappy essay brought to you by
Abe "aBeYbAbY" VanElswyk
(SCHOOL, MALL, FRIEND'S HOUSE, DATE )
I'm glad to hear your perspective, because I thought about all this when I chose to live here in Brooklyn. In the end, I think it will be better for my two little girls, now ages 6 and 8. They'll be able to ride the subway to Manhattan, hang out, and meet up with us after work. They might even go to high school there. They can also take the train down to Coney Island to go to the beach. I won't have to drive them, and they won't have to drive themselves.
You're right about the density too. Most of the neighborhood teens just hang out with each other on the stoops. It bothers some of the neighbors since teens keep later hours and make more noise, especially since we have a lot of pretty girls on our block and boys show up from elsewhere. But it doesn't bother me; I'm looking ahead. The burbs were great in the 1950s because everyone moved in during the same phase of life, so even at low density there a lot of people your age. But now you have mixed ages, and with the densities they way they are, there may be no one your age on the block. On our block (17 foot wide one-family rowhouses on one side and 20 foot wide two-family rowhouses on the other) there is a swarm of little kids, a swarm of teens, and a swarm of old people besides.
Bottom line -- housing decisions are made by working age adults, who are busy working, have their friends, and value quiet and privacy. They want low density. But children (and the old) need the social contact higher density allows. I took a "child's eye" view in choosing to live where I do. I wouldn't want to still be living in a dorm, but I wouldn't want to be isolated on a two-acre lot either. Americans are living at the extreme.
I grew up partially in an urban environment (West Yonkers) and partially in the suburbs. The first suburb I lived in was actually very walkable/bikeable -- the older onces were built that way. But as for my overall view, I suggest listening to "Subdivisions" by the rock band Rush.
[(SCHOOL, MALL, FRIEND'S HOUSE, DATE)]
[Bottom line -- housing decisions are made by working age adults, who are busy working, have their friends, and value quiet and privacy. They want low density. But children (and the old) need the social contact higher density allows. I took a "child's eye" view in choosing to live where I do. I wouldn't want to still be living in a dorm, but I wouldn't want to be isolated on a two-acre lot either. Americans are living at the extreme.]
Access to jobs is another issue for young people. My stepdaughter recently turned 15 and really wants to get a job. Except on weekends, however, her mother and I aren't able to drive her because of our own schedules. Even though we're in a fairly dense suburb, there isn't much in reasonable walking or biking distance. One supermarket that's a longish but doable walk away has a couple of openings, but they're in the deli and therefore off-limits to minors. Another supermarket is hiring like crazy, in fact offered Cherie an on-the-spot interview, but they're beyond walking distance. I suspect that this problem is not at all uncommon.
Which isn't to say, of course, that city teens have it any better. They can get around just fine by transit, but there aren't any jobs for them.
(Access to jobs is another issue for young people. Even though we're in a fairly dense suburb, there isn't much in reasonable walking or biking distance.)
As a teen in Tulsa, I had to walk a mile to work as a busboy/dishwasher/cook along a road with no sidewalk. But it wasn't so bad, because I was in peak shape. I'd walk home at 2 a.m. and then go out for a jog. Today I couldn't run a half mile. Every now and then a cop would roll up to see what I was doing, and sometimes they'd give me a ride. Everyone else had cars -- I was thought as this weird guy who walked, because I had just moved in from NY.
(Which isn't to say, of course, that city teens have it any better. They can get around just fine by transit, but there aren't any jobs
for them.)
That seems to be changing, at least in better-off neighborhoods.
Certainly girls can get child care jobs. We pay one 15 year old $26 to pick up our kids one day a week, walk them home, and hang out with them until we arrive home at 6 p.m. She has one hell of a lot more spending money than I did at that age. Another girl on the block spent the summer working in a restaurant in the Hamptons. She took the train out, lived packed in with other youngsters, made big bucks, and served Jerry Seinfeld. She said lots of the folks working there were from Ireland, and she actually ran into a distant relative. Another girl worked as a lifeguard; lifeguards are in such short supply here that they are recruited from Australia. Some of the boys got construction jobs, and there is help wanted in the supermarket.
It's not as easy as in suburbia, but if you do not live in a poor neighborhood, it is easier to get a job now than in the 1970s.
somehow i am very embarassed I left that out. Without a dependable ride I have not been able to get a steady job, I worked at a summer camp and in a week I start working making french fries at the state fair for three weeks. Anyone I konw who has a job has a car, you can't have a job without one - the clutch died on my friend Janna's car, she went to have it fixed the guy screwed her and put in an old clutch and readjusted it but she was dumb and didn't make sure there was a paper trail and she cna't prove it so she had to quit her job at the safeway (a grocery store, for those on the east coast). Bottom line: You need a car for a job here (which SUCKS!). Another interesting fact - there IS a bus line on Meridian, but it runs every hour from 9:00 to 7:00 on weekdays, every hour from 11:00 to 6:00 on saturdays, and not on sundays so it is USELESS
You've already mentioned your moving violations as precluding your driving now. You can complain, but if you had been careful driving to begin with, you wouldn't have had this problem.
yeah well that is assuming i WANTED a steady job, i had a lot of fun working at the summer camp with the little kids... try to find a single teenager who obeys the speed limit, stops for yellows, etc. etc...
You'll find one as soon as you see me driving down the road.
I don't have a job now, I don't want a job, even though I can easily drive to one. Although I do have an unofficial part time job driving my cousin around to sites related to his job.
I'm sorry, I guess I don't qualify since I don't obey the speed limit, I just know when I can break it and when I should obey it. I went 65-75 on the Belt today (50 MPH speed limit there).
As for horns, I believe a law should be passed that automatically shuts off a horn after holding down the horn for more than 2 seconds. The only thing more obnoxious than repeated horn honkings are those hold down ones.
As for horns, I believe a law should be passed that automatically shuts off a horn after holding down the horn for more than 2 seconds. The only thing more obnoxious than repeated horn honkings are those hold down ones.
What's particularly funny is when some anencephalic starts blasting his horn in totally gridlocked traffic when no one can move. It's as if car horns have a magical ability to lift stuck cars out of the way and clear a nice open path.
In addition, some idiots honk their horn when your waiting to make a turn. This idea came to me yesterday when I was trying to turn from left East 80th onto Paerdegat 1st.
OK, I was trying to do it from the right lane, but the idiot wasn't in the left lane, he was behind me and thus hardly affected.
>>>What's particularly funny is when some anencephalic starts blasting his horn in totally
gridlocked traffic when no one can move. It's as if car horns have a magical ability to lift
stuck cars out of the way and clear a nice open path. <<<
Well, living in NYC for so long you oughtta know that the purpose of a car horn is NOT to warn unsuspecting motorists or pedestrians that you are coming....but to express displeasure when you perceive that the party in front of you is not moving as quickly as you'd like...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Well, living in NYC for so long you oughtta know that the purpose of a car horn is NOT to warn unsuspecting motorists or pedestrians that you are coming....but to express displeasure when you perceive that the party in front of you is not moving as quickly as you'd like... )
And you have to know the unofficial traffic infractions in those cases:
1) Failure to run over pedestrian.
2) Failure to run red light to not going through before it changes.
3) Failure to ride the clutch so you don't have to engage the gears after the light changes.
4) Failure to rear end the vehicle in front of you, which is waiting to make a right and slowed by pedestrians, so the vehicle behind (who was tailgating) can get around.
Etc.
This one doesn't apply to New York City too much, but another action that inevitably results in some yahoo blowing his horn here in Chicago, which abounds in rail crossings on busy, multi-track, and relatively high-speed lines, is waiting on one side of a rail crossing until traffic clears on the other side sufficiently for you to cross without blocking the tracks.
All the moron behind you sees is a space in front of your car that you aren't occupying. His (or her) primitive brain works it out thus: "Big space in front of car in front of Ogg. Car in front of Ogg not moving. Ogg get home faster if car in front of Ogg move. Car move into space if Ogg honk horn. Ogg honk horn until car move into space." If by chance someone with at least half a brain pointed out that the space was a busy three-track rail crossing, the response would be "Ogg not care if car hit by big choo-choo. Ogg not in car. Ogg want go HOME! Ogg want go home NOW!"
Isn't Ogg the same guy who always tries to crowd into the subway cars before anybody gets off?
If that's the case then there are an awful lot of people named Ogg!
Peace,
ANDEE
try to find a single teenager who obeys the speed limit, stops for yellows, etc. etc...
I can name three (two of whom are no longer teenagers): Amanda, Theodore, and Margaret - my three oldest. (My youngest isn't old enough to drive yet.) Two of them flirted with irresponsible driving and lost their privileges for a time as a result, but that was my doing, not due to any actions on the part of law enforcement or the insurance company. They all learned to drive in a rural area 30 miles outside a large city and were therefore exposed to all kinds of driving while on their permits - and while on their permits they did essentially ALL of the driving in our family, in all kinds of vehicles, from small sports cars to big station wagons, trucks, and minivans, in all kinds of weather. Most importantly, though, they knew that Mom and Dad wouldn't tolerate irresponsibility, so they drove carefully, and still do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(try to find a single teenager who obeys the speed limit, stops for yellows, etc. etc)
I certainly did. On the other hand, my younger brother and sister each totaled a car in their teen years. Perhaps it's a birth order thing.
Same Here PABCO Transit runs like that and the #5 which serves my area only runs 2 days a week otherwise I either walk to NJTRO at Lake Hopatcong or PABCO's #10 at Dover.
2 a week? waht kinda service is that?
I always wondered what the purpose of Morris County buses 4-8 are, since their service is EXTREMELY limited.
#4 - runs every weekday, 6 trips per day, 3 in each direction, with only one trip going the whole length in each direction.
#5 - one trip in each direction on Mondays and Wednesdays
#7 - One trip in each direction on Tuesdays and Fridays
#8 - One trip in each direction on Thursdays
The #1, 2, 3, and 10 run regularly (hourly service Mondays-Saturdays).
Nothing runs on Sundays.
There is absolutely no point at all to that. 3 a weekday is crappy, but understandable for a rural area. But not every day? Geesh...
4 service to Dover has been terminated due to NJTRO service. On a trip to Morristown I paid $2.50 for NJTRO vs. $4 for PABCO #10 round trip. MCM 5 must serve Hackettstown,Kenvil,and Mine Hill as NJTRO's midday trains can cover Mount Olive,Netcong,and Lake Hopatcong,or run NJTRO via M&E(MCDOT)'s High Bridge Branch to Flanders to serve the Toys "R" Us wharehouse. Lakeland is now offering local service on Route 46 during off-peak hours. If plans by PADOT go as planned Rockaway Mall could have an Amtrak/NJT/NYCT station for the B,Cutoff Trains,and NJT service. Now Lakeland doesn't even use the PABCO stop there.
NJTRO? What would that be?
As a former reporter for the Daily Record of Morris County, and a former Dover resident, I can state that the purpose of those "occasional" MoCo buses is ...
...to drive you insane and punish you for still living in the suburbs! Moo-hoo-hoo-hoo-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
(actually, I think the purpose is to allow occasional shopping expeditions, visits to or by elderly shut-ins, and other less-than-daily activities for people with less-than-hectic schedules.)
The MCM 4 runs during rush hours until Whitney Houston sells out for NJTRO to run along Rt. 24 to Long Valley and that bus is used on the 5,7,and 8 routes as in some cases trains come cheaper than buses. Anyone care to explain why it is $2.50 to Morristown round-trip and $3 Lake Hopatcong to Dover RTX.
And with Lakeland going the way they are,The B and C extensions to NJ should be built before the 2 Av Subway.
Many young people in NYC, especially Queens and Brooklyn "reverse commute" using LI Bus routes N6,N22,and N24 to take them to the center of retail jobs, Nassau's HUB area. Many people travel to Roosevelt Field and Westbury areas.
I wonder if young people from the city also "reverse commute" into NJ for retail jobs. It's one thing that hasn't grown in the city, especially in boroughs outside Manhattan, is retail jobs. Why is NYC such an unappealing place for mall developers?
There's ample room in Queens for a new shopping mall, so why hasn't one been developed yet?
The main shopping areas in Queens is in Elmhurst and Rego Park, near E,F,G and R lines, but it pales in comparison to shopping areas in the "burbs" of Long Island and New Jersey, which aren't easily accessible to rail transportation, and have so/so bus service, esp on weekends.
'burbs vs. city? I think I would be happiest somewhere in between, like the small town I grew up in. My hometown was a suburb of medium sized city, but it was not a "subdivision." It was an older town, and there were huge trees and sidewalks, and my mom could walk to the grocery store. I attended elementary school one block from my house and high school 2 blocks from my house. The schools were in the midst of the town, not off some highway in the middle of a cornfield. Our church was 2 blocks in the other direction. There was not a ton of space for our yard, and you could see into our neighbors' kitchens, but it was still private enough for me. My grandfather, who was from Brooklyn and later Queens Village (this is why I absolutely can't root for the Yankees), said it reminded him of Flatbush. I know I would not be happy in a so-called subdivision, where you have to drive to do anything. I would feel too isolated. The city is probably a little too much the opposite extreme, but it's okay for me and my wife now. At least till we have kids.
Anyone who is a fan of Gene Shepard (sp?), the guy who wrote the stories upon which the film 'A Christmas Story' is based, will know what I mean.
'burbs vs. city? I think I would be happiest somewhere in between, like the small town I grew up in. My hometown was a suburb of medium sized city, but it was not a "subdivision." It was an older town, and there were huge trees and sidewalks, and my mom could walk to the grocery store. I attended elementary school one block from my house and high school 2 blocks from my house. The schools were in the midst of the town, not off some highway in the middle of a cornfield. Our church was 2 blocks in the other direction. There was not a ton of space for our yard, and you could see into our neighbors' kitchens, but it was still private enough for me.
You've touched on some deep sentiments here. Many people, quite possibly a majority, would consider an environment like you describe to be the perfect place in which to live - a settled, closely knit, pedestrian-friendly community, filled with modest but well-maintained single family homes (you didn't mention the last part, but it's a reasonable assumption). Many communities like that exist, either as self-contained small towns or as inner suburbs of older cities.
Unfortunately, these communities are a bit like Old Master paintings - we have to enjoy the ones that now exist, because no one's creating any new ones. While residential developments fitting these settlement patterns can be and sometimes are built, very seldom if ever do they have the mix of commercial and civic uses necessary to create a "true" community. Disney's planned community of Celebration is one of the very few exceptions. While Celebration seems to be successful, although the jury's still out on the final verdict, it surely never would have been built without a huge corporation's enthusiastic backing.
I don't pretend to have any answers as to why these communities are so difficult to replicate. There probably are a variety of factors, ranging from zoning to new shopping patterns to a sheer desire for privacy in one's residential arrangements. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.
From a transit point of view, communities as you describe are probably the next best thing to a dense urban environment. Having the whole community within walking distance of the train station makes commuter rail (including DC Metro-style regional rail) a viable option, to the extent of course that there is a nearby city center with a sufficient concentration of jobs. In fact, some of the inner "railroad" or "trolley" suburbs of older cities might fit your description. As a result, the ability to replicate these communities wouldn't merely satisfy many peoples' desires, but it also could help transit use, at least to a modest degree.
The pre-1950 railroad suburbs have the characteristics you describe, and have many of the advantages of a city neighborhood, especially with commuter rail. Such places are prohibitively expensive to live in in the New York area, and are (along with Manhattan) among the most affluent places in the region, despite relatively higher densities.
There are disadvantages, however. One is commuting distance. The other is having your kids grow up in an environment where the logo on their shirt determines their self-worth.
As for rural small towns and micro-cities, there are plenty of such places in Upstate New York and Pennsylvania, with quality historic buildings and other amenities. No jobs.
Several of the Chicago suburbs are like that. Most of the Metra commuter rail lines were once private commuter lines owned by the C&NW, NP, UP, RI, SSL, NSL, etc. etc.. My best friend in elementary school before I moved away lived in one such city, Wheaton. Wheaton had several subdivisions in its outer areas and south of the town it was just incorporated sprawl. But it was a sidewalked, tree-lined grid for about a mile and a half in any direction from the Metra station. In addition Wheaton had been a "real town" before even the rail-based suburban developement came it and thus had a charming downtown core, with a lot of well-kept brick buildings. The grocery store (Jewel-Osco) was even located just across the tracks, in a 40s-era hanger-roofed building. But the downtown had the hardware store (Carlson's), the movie theater (second-run, all seats 1.50), the ice cream place, the mexican restaraunt (Front Street Cocina) and every other little shop. If you could get a house near the train station you were set. Clem (best friend) lived in a 900sq. ft. bungalow built in the 30s and we could walk anywhere from his house.
The pre-1950 railroad suburbs are very desirable, and thus expensive because they are real towns which developed along the route of the NJT Raritan Valley line, which I believe was the Lehigh Valley Railroad. The towns came before the automobile, but learned to embrace it. A lot of towns in Union County, NJ fit your description. Towns like Cranford, Scotch Plains and pricy Westfield. Cranford and Westfield have thriving town centers near their RR stations. Westfield even has name stores like the Gap in town, a rarity for a national chain. You can actually walk to the NJT from the nice parts of these towns. Houses in Cranford run from the mid $250k range on up, in Westfield $280k on up into the $500k range. Property taxes run from $6k a year on up. Not cheap. These towns are desirable and yet they border rundown towns like Elizabeth and Linden.
Staten Island developed in a similar way well before the VNB. The towns grew near the stations of the SIRT. To this day the older homes and many small stores on the east side of SI are near the stations. In some cases this has caused zoning anomalies like in Grant City where you have houses and small stores interspersed along Lincoln Avenue. The difference here is that the city's lust for property taxes (and contributions from builders) pushed aside any hope of SI ever maintaining it's town-like feel after the 1961 zoning went into effect.
perhaps if the SI city fathers knew the state of it, they would've never merged with NYC
Staten Island was never a city. It was Richmond County, with some small towns within (anyone know the names of those towns?). It still is Richmond County, just no Board of Supervisors.
Staten Island, along with Brooklyn and Queens became part of New York City in 1898. For more info go to -
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nyc100/html/centinfo.html
Also Great Neck Plaza is around the LIRR Great Neck station. Very expensive homes and apartments, also lots of small shops and boutiques in the area. Port Washington LIRR service is pretty good, but there will be NONE this Saturday, because of work. Buses will run (from LI Bus) from Port Washington to Flushing every 15 minutes stopping at or near train stations ONLY. Riders will get off at Flushing and change to the number 7 train. Only weekly and monthly ticket holders get free rides on 7 train, all others have to pay the $1.50 fare to get in.
(Property taxes run from $6k a year on up. Not cheap.)
Just remember to add you local income tax to your property tax for comparison. $6K a year on up sounds good to a Brooklyn homeowner.
(New York City's lust for propety taxes).
I WISH! Far from it...just the opposite!
Suburban towns zone out housing, except luxury housing, to keep costs down, then zone in business to keep property tax revenues up without burdening homeowners. It's called "fiscal zoning." Also, for new homes, you have a "welcome stranger" policy. Selfishness rules because your little suburb gets to keep all those business tax reveneus for itself. Hence, overdevelopment.
Here in NYC, on the other hand, business tax revenues just flow into a general pot, so local communities fight commercial development at every turn, and generally get their way. Few suburbs are as underzoned for commerce as NYC. On the other hand, to help the working man, NYC allows two family houses, rowhouses, apartment houses just about anywhere. Even in South Richmond, where suburban attitudes let to an "exclusionary" downzoning, the lots are small by U.S. standards and two-family homes are allowed. And, new housing outside Manhattan (and much new commercial development) is EXEMPT from property taxes for years and years and years!
If Staten Island were a separate city, and couldn't receive a net subsidy from the rest of the city (well, from Manhattan) opposition to commercial expansion would be crushed pretty quickly. You'd see that Charlestown mall built in no time.
I'm against exclusionary zoning, city and suburb, but I find the anti-business attidudes you find in NYC neighborhoods ridiculous. Better to try to get a bigger share of a smaller pot than to allow more commercial development and get an average pot.
]...$6K a year on up sounds good to a Brooklyn
homeowner...]
-But remember that's all deductible, which is what makes it more palatable. And $6k is the low end.
[...anti-business attidudes you find in NYC neighborhoods
ridiculous...]
-So do I. The Charleston development is really out of place down there, the entire piece of land is surrounded by homes for the most part. But these people who oppose large supermarkets in existing commercial structures are another story. We are starting to lose our older mid-size supermarkets, and I'm betting you are too in Brooklyn. I know that Waldbaum's has closed many Brooklyn stores since 1990.
[...Selfishness rules because your little suburb gets to keep all those business tax reveneus for itself. Hence, overdevelopment...]
-How is it selfish when a town keeps all it's takes to itself. NYC doesn't share it's tax revenues with Yonkers or Valley Stream.
[...in South Richmond, where suburban attitudes let to an exclusionary" downzoning...]
-Our roads were not built for what we have now. Those two people on the City Planning commission were ranting about this also. I don't think either of them have ever been out here. They said we were excluding people based on income. Really? This is the only borough where a blue-collar person can afford a new house, even if it is a cheesy semi-attached home.
{This is too nice a day to be on the computer, so it's on my environmentally friendly bicycle for a ride down to the beach at Great Kills Park!}
Suburban towns zone out housing, except luxury housing, to keep costs down, then zone in business to keep property tax revenues up without burdening homeowners. It's called "fiscal zoning." Also, for new homes, you have a "welcome stranger" policy. Selfishness rules because your little suburb gets to keep all those business tax reveneus for itself. Hence, overdevelopment.
That's not universally true. Yes, some very upscale localities have exclusionary zoning, within minimum lot and/or house size requirements that basically rule out everything but very expensive housing. Connecticut towns are notorious for that. In Long Island, by contrast, zoning tends to be less restrictive, leading to some unusual juxtaposition of uses. Land prices are extremely high, but that's mainly a function of the sheer shortage of buildable land. I'm not sure what the case is in New Jersey.
Well personally I prefer a suburban community, but with decent transit. Obviously I can't expect subways, but at the least decent bus service and a LRT (Light Rail Transit) system.
I have lived in Nassau county for most of my life. I used to live in North Wantagh with my grandparents in a Levitt house. The street was nice, sidewalks were clean and wide, and they were pretty much everywhere. There were two shopping centers in easy walking distance, which I used to walk to alot. Fairly nice middle class community, but bus service nearby (only N73/74) ran poorly and hardly on weekends,s o I almost never took it.
Where I live now is a nightmere (as many of you know)it is the village of Sea Cliff. It's old, sidewalks (where they have them) are old and crumbling, and there's not much of anything except bars and delis in the village, and a dinky run down shopping center in a long walk. Many roads don't have sidewalks, and you have to dodge overgrown trees and shrubs. Bus transit (via N21) is mostly hourly but does run nights/weekends. However going south, it's pretty bad. The N27 runs mainly during the week and not during nights. And OB branch service on the LIRR is infrequent, and Sea Cliff station is a 40 minute walk from here along dark roads and narrow sidewalks. So it's pretty hard for people who don't drive to get to the HUB area where most retail jobs are.
Unfortunately I wound up here because my grandparents passed away, the house was sold (most of sale $$ went to nursing home care, and taxes), and thus I wound up in this cramped apartment in Sea Cliff with my Mom. We had to enter a housing program, and this was the only place they had otherwise we'd have been homeless. I cannot understand why they'd pick such a poor area for someone to live, but apartments on LI are scarse. And for awhile my Mom didn't have a car, and it was impossible to get around here without one. Lots of walking, sometimes 3 miles to Glen Cove, to get to a supermarket, because we couldn't afford a cab. Fortunately now my Mom can get around because she has a car thanks to a friend, and a job, but now she's sick with a re-occurence of breast cancer, and can't work as much. I am getting assistance to find a job in the computer field, but it will be hard to find one because I don't drive my own car, nor can I afford one.
But I still do prefer the suburban environment, not the old delapidated one of the north shore, but the more modern areas, especially Levittown, by Hempstead Turnpike with good access to main bus routes like N70/71/72 and connections to areas like the HUB, and rail connections. It's safe, middle class, and has plenty of local shopping. There aren't many locations in Nassau county that have those qualities. Parts of Suffolk county are nice, like around Smith Haven Mall, but is nearly impossible to navigate without a car, with no sidewalks and very poor SCT service. There's plenty of shopping there, but you need a car out there.
I am pretty impressed with NJ, so far I've been to the Paramus area, there are lots of nice malls and shopping, and NJ Transit bus service is pretty good. ALot of routes are hourly, but run on nights and weekends. Also Hackensack, Maywood, and Wood-Ridge look like nice working class communities.
Long Island is getting pretty crowded though, traffic on the north shore is especially bad. Construction during the day, which SHOULD be at night, many of the few roads that lead out of the area, the LIE mess, make a trip to the nearest decent shopping area (Garden City) over 30 minutes long by car, and about an hour by bus. As to why all this road work takes place during the day, I guess we should ask all the residents of Roslyn and Brookville. They probably don't want bright lights and noise disturbing them at night, so the rest of us have to sit in traffic.
I would not want to live in NYC. While they may have subways, it is too crowded and congested, and in my opinion many parts of NYC is decaying. Also it is very expensive if you want to live in a good area with good access to the subway.
I did visit Jersey City this past week, very nice development around Newport Centre, nice mall and very clean and wide sidewalks, unlike the mess in NYC. Also saw HBLR construction, which will be a nice addition to urban NJ.
Well as soon as I can get my life together I plan on moving somewhere else either the Levittown area or New Jersey, or Suffolk if I can eventually get a car.
Sorry for spilling my guts out here, but I'm not ashamed of letting others know about my crazy life.
When I was a teenager in Manhattan, one one of my friends had a car -- his aunt bought him a Trans Am -- and while it was great for going out to Jones Beach in the summer (well, not-so-great if you had to scrunch into the back seat), it was useless for doing anything but driving around on regular weekends in the city. Unless you've got rich parents who will fork over parking garage cash, the time you spend driving around looking for street parking offsets any advantage you'd have taking the car in the first place, instead of walking to the bus or subway.
My insurance would be 240 were I paying it now. Come November it'll be
105 (assuming i don't hit any more telephone poles).
Is that for a whole year? If so, do you realize how incredibly cheap that is, compared to rates on the east coast? In NYC even good drivers have to pay $1000/year or more. It can be the cost of insurance, rather than the purchase price of a car, which puts driving financially out of reach for some people.
122nd is a two lane with four way stops - EVERY stop jams up for
about a mile or more behind it at rush hour.
Four-way stop signs make no sense on busy streets or roads. I say put the stop signs on one road only and leave them off the other. If there is too much traffic for that, put in traffic lights.
The only place for 4-way or all-way stop signs is at the intersection of two lightly-travelled roads. And if everyone obeyed stop signs like they should, there would never be a need for all-way stop signs at all. I think they are put up mainly as "failsafe" protection in case someone runs one of the signs. If cars approach from several directions at once, it can be confusing trying to figure out who has the right of way, and this confusion causes delays.
that is the MONTHLY cost. 240 a MONTH vs. 105 a MONTH. agreed with the stop signs i hate 'em.
Metrocard.citysearch.com is listing four U.S. Open Metrocards:
U.S. Open Chang $15
U.S. Open Davenport $15
U.S. Open Hingus $17
U.S. Open Rafter $17
I haven't seen any yet; I would guess it's time to start checking the MVMs as well.
I have several sets of 1999s. What is the bid?
That would be:
- John McEnroe
- Althea Gibson
- Luke & Murphy Jansen
- Venus Williams
and before that it was the Am Exp tennis ball (9/98)
Mr t__:^)
Here is the only news I have:
"There will be a series of U.S. Open MetroCards available online and at **selected** MVMs."
SOURCE: Official Bulletin
Please dont ask me which machines. It just said "Selected MVMs"
In general, which stations are the worst in terms of safety in the neighboring area?
I do know that stations like Berks are a hazard by themselves, but in general, how are the neighborhoods like around at 69th St Terminal or stations like Somerset, Allegeheny, Huntingdon or Tioga?
Are there any Orange Line/BSS/BRS stations that I should avoid?
Thanks in advance!
Nick
You couldn't pay me to use the following stations:
BSL
North Phidelphia
Susquehanna-Dauphin
Allegheny (after dark)
MFL
60th, 56th, 52nd, 46th
North Philadelphia:
Funny, on my second trip in '98 (after my trip during the strike) I had no clue about your whole system. I boarded the BSS at City Hall, and did not know there was an option for an express train. After hitting all local stops, I see an express platform at North Philadelphia, and a train arriving. I get off the local, and as the doors close I realize its not stopping. I look at the map, and see that express trains do not stop here. Then, this 2 car train pulls up all the way down the platform. I was walking toward it, wondering where 'Girard' and '8th/Market' were, I looked at the map, both stops were south of me. Train leaves when I'm 6' from the door. I look around and saw some youths spraying grafitti on the wall, they see me staring and start yelling. Another express speeds by, I realize I'm the only one on the platform, and those kids are now on my side, getting closer. Local train comes in, doors open, I get on and walk thru to the front. The kids stayed on the platform. I never set foot in that station again.
carry a gun
Hey!
I live very close to the MFL stations you mentioned and use them with frequency. Avoid them off hours(52nd in particular), of course, but they're perfectly safe any other time, 46th especially.
If you're travelling during the day, almost all of the SEPTA system is relatively safe. Berks is in a particularly desolate area, with little foot traffic (if SEPTA had guts, it would've been closed instead of rehabbed).
If you're travelling around times when school lets out, things are a bit different. At this time it can get a little 'dicey' on the El at 46th, 40th, 34th, York-Dauphin, Huntingdon, and Erie-Torresdale, and on the Subway at Snyder, Spring Garden, Girard, North Phila, Hunting Park and Olney. On the subway-surface avoid 22nd and 36th/Sansom during these times.
At night, I wouldn't go railfanning if for no other reason than the headways open up and the crowds thin out somewhat.
From my experience one of the worst stations for incidents is 22nd on the subway-surface. I've personally seen transit police out in force here at school dismissal times and once was on a car that entered the station eastbound during an incident. Apparently there is some special needs (i.e. disciplinary) school nearby that generates some traffic. The subway-surface stations generally have the 'feel' of problems since one need not pay a fare to enter many of them, thus there are more than the usual share of street folks, hoodlums, etc.
Isn't the subway closed at night?
It closes at Mid-night, but it gets dark around 6PM leaving 6 hours of "night" to contend with.
I noticed mention of some sort of "Owl Service" shuttle on SEPTA's website. What's the deal with that? And do Philly's busses run 24 hours?
Most importantly, what time to Philly's bars close and where can I find the city's best cheesteak sandwich?
Inquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Boston, MA
Dave,
The "Owl Service" is that the subways get replaced by buses from Mindnight to 5AM or so.
Some of Philly's buses run 24 hours, such as the 14, 20 and 23.
As far as getting cheesesteak sandwiches, I can recommend Rick's at the Reading Terminal Market (12th St at Arch, but that closes at 6PM and is closed on Sundays) and Pat's at the corner of 9th St at Passyunk/Wharton).
Pat's can be reached by BSS (Orange Line) to Ellsworth-Federal, taking the Federal St exit, and walking east to 9th Street. Pat's is just South of Federal and 9th. It is at the southern end of the Italian Market. You can try Geno's if you want, but Pat's is 24-7, and I think Geno's might be also.
As far as bars, sorry I don't know when bars close in Philly.
All from a Bostonian who just went to Philly last week for a convention, but spent 75-80% of that time sightseeing :)
Nick
hmmm, are the owl bus routes comparable with the subways or do they zig-zag all over the place like the owls in SF do that replace the MUNIs
They run the same routes but don't stop at out of the way stations(Spring Garden and Millbourne on the MFL because they aren't on a direct street) but stop close to them.
And they run every 15 minutes all night long, and all four directions stop at 15 and Market at the same time and wait for everyone to change busses.
Bars close at 2 AM.
For steaks, try Gino's and Pat's - both are at 9th and Passyunk. A well known, above average steak is available at Jims, on South at 3rd or 4th. Also, some people swear by the steaks you get out of the lunch trucks around Penn - anyone know if they are still there?
Actually, the different places have steaks that are quite different. Pat's are far and away the best, but in case you are wrong and disagree, you can try the other places.
Aw man those lunch trucks are great. I just took summer classes at Penn and I bought like candy and soda from this Russian Guy on 36th and Market and I bought my lunched from the mobile place next to the Russian guy. $2.60 bought you a Meatball Sub, chips and a can of soda. 3.85 upgraded the sub to a cheese steak. However you should avoid the mobile Chineese food places cause they just suck.
And both Pat's and Geno's sell T-shirts. And you can buy a Philadelphia Daily News at the corner and sit on one of those outside picnic tables and relax.
About 20 SEPTA routes operate all night (the 'owl' service) but the headways are generally 30 minutes (the exception being the El and Subway owls, which operate more frequently).
If you're going to Pat's to get a steak sandwich, take it from a lifelong Phila guy - go to Geno's instead (across the street). Much better. Jim's is good, and Abner's (on Chestnut St west of 38th) is also worth the trip - very close to U of P and Drexel.
you say 30 minute service all night like it's a bad thing
In some ways, it is. In '75 the current 'owl' network was formed. Before that, about 3/4 of the system's lines ran all night, with headways closer to every 20 minutes. It was still fairly easy to get around and the wait wasn't unbearable. Now, with the fewer routes and wider headways, no effort has been made to time connections and waits are still long. Several parts of the city (mine being one of them) have no all-night service at all, with the last trips leaving Center City just after 11 PM. It makes using transit for a sporting event, concert, etc a non-option.
I'm not too unhappy about this since the headways reflect the ridership in many ways and the ridership isn't there to justify the service (meaning that SEPTA could probably cut even more). There are some lines, such as the subway/el night owls and service to UPS Airport, for one, which run with standing loads at 3:30 AM.
The problem with our subway is that both lines run mainly through poorer neighborhoods, which a normal tourist wouldn't worry about since they'd only use the stations downtown which are pretty much safe anyway.
To the railfan, however, a nervous nelly would be bothered riding the El through York-Dauphin and Berks.
It's worse on the BSS because you can't see the area you're travelling through.
Not to turn this into a racial thing, but I know for a fact that in some areas of the city, local kids set out to bother people who look like they don't belong there(the whole "this is our turf" deal).
Avoid the Ridge Spur not because it's crime ridden but because it's deserted. Fairmount is no-man's land and Chinatown is lightly used.
The BSS is a gamble. It's bad during rush hours because when school is in session, if you're at any station north of City Hall, you'll have problems with loud, belligerent kids. The stations in South Philly can be dicey.
The MFL is fine during the off-peak day hours but is just too crowded at the rush.
My personal experience, I've encountered fewer problems going to Frankford on the El than I have going to 69th, but the problems were few.
My advice, and I'm sorry to say this being 17 myself, it's fair to be on higher alert when you're close to a large group of kids. Though it's not very likely your life or possessions are in jeopardy, many times they'll harass you just for the fun of it.
A Drexel student was attacked at 30th Street with a knife during they day, but as the paper, SEPTA, and most others pointed out, this is a rare occurence, and I have always "felt safe" on the El almost any time of day.
By the way, they caught the *$@%$ that did this, and he was apparently a vagrant.
'Nuff said!
No, what action was taken? How should we know what we (or you) are thankful for?
-Hank
Mr. Subway Crash came back and graced us with his presence... (and the other day, graced me with about 100 spams).
-Dave
Ah...in that case, Thank you.
-Hank
David, I guess that was Mr. "happy birthday" no doubt?
Good riddance, I say...
Doug aka BMTman
The audacity!!!
The atrocity!!!
The g-bye!!
..all in seven hours.. :)
It really looks like there is a good chance that this could be the year that we have our first Subway Series since 1956. Of course New Yorkers will go wild! What team will you be rooting for? Right now the Yankees are leading the Mets in our poll. Are there more Yankee fans then Met fans among rail buffs? Cast your vote at the Transit Talk Message Board.
You've already posted this.
oh boy....playoffs don't start for another 6 weeks and the baseball posts are coming in already! Da bombers will win over the mets. -Nick
08/17/2000
Does anybody know what happened to the Johnstown,Pa. PCC's when the system quit in 1959? Were they sold to another operator or scrapped?
I understand Johnstown had the smallest PCC fleet anywhere, is that true?
Bill "Newkirk"
The cars were stripped of trucks, windows, control equipment and other incendental parts, all of which was sold to La Bregouise, who built PCC for Den Hague and other systems.
It's very possible that Johnstown had the smallest PCC fleet anywhere (17 cars). It is however, known that Johnstown was the smallest city to use the PCC car. Its order did come as a surprise to the traction industry. The order was an add on to a larger Pittsburgh order, and was a simplified version of those cars.
I heard recently that Johnstown was the SMALLEST CITY to use the PCC car. Corgi will be doing some up in Johnstown colors as one of their next releases, in O scale.
Corgi is slightly smaler than O scale but close. Johnstown is reported to be the smallest city to operate PCC's cars in north america.
Kenosha painted one of it's cars (4616) in a Johnstown like paint scheme but the orange is TMER&L orange to represent it's own St. Louis cars and Trolley bues that were bought in 1932 instead of PCC cars.
Bill, as a substitute, why not come up to Branford and let me take you for a ride on our Johnstown Safety Car, #357, mfg. by St. Louis in 1926. I'll be happy to show you how far up the side they found mud from when she took a bath in the flood .... Ding Ding
Mr t__:^)
357 was still listed as Out Of Service, last weekend (one of our operating fleet). It was still on the pit track in the shop.
(Thurston, using your cheat sheets for above??) >G<
True 357 was HIGH and DRY on the pit track last week, thought it would have been put back in service this week, SO I wasn't telling an intentional fib :-)
BTW, to those out there that are interested, she was restored to great shape recently ... and looks real fine. Next year you may be able to ride "The Street Car Named Desire" ... as she's taking the place of the R-17 on the shop track of Shoreline at Branford.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah. It looks like I'll have to finish work on 6688 elsewhere....
-Stef
If you want to go even further back in time, you can ride Johnstown (PA) Traction #311 Birney safety car at the Rockhill Trolley Museum.
During the restoration of 356, done by my father in the early 70's there was an 1 1/2 inch of river silt found in the headlining of 356. It is a safe bet most JTC cars were under quite a bit of water. On another note, Johnstown also was the first company to order all electric PCC's. If any Branford members are interested I wrote an article for the Tripper on Johnstown Traction Co in Sept 99 issue
In fact I recall seeing Bill at the museum a few weeks ago, delivering
his new subway calendars.
08/17/2000
I am proud to announce that the 2001 New York City Subways calendar is available or soon to be available as I will state. Mail order for the 2001 edition should be ready in about a week. Sorry for the delay, personal things kept me from releasing it sooner. Here's the list:
New York City - Arnold Joseph, Red Caboose, Quadrant Press AVAILABLE BY THIS SATURDAY.
I will be selling them at this Friday nights NY Division ERA meeting.
New Jersey - Alan Zelazo
Connecticut - Shoreline Trolley Museum gift shop
Massachusetts - Train Books/Kevin Farrell
Nassau County - Hicksville Hobbies, Willis Hobbies (possibly by weekend)
CALL THEM FIRST TO BE SURE!
Any questions, please use my above e-mail.
Thank You,
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
Bill,
I have enjoyed your calendar for years.
My train show dealer in Pennsylania will no longer sell any train calendars.Do you know what stores or dealers will carry your calendar in the Eastern or Central areas of Pennsylvania or Northern Delaware.
Thanks
You sound like a good mail order candidate, like me.....
Bill,
Great news! I, too, have enjoyed your calendars...
I'll be at The Red Caboose on Monday to get one.
Marc
Thank you for putting this calendar out for these many years. I always look forward to them. This year is no exception!
--Mark
When did they stop their GO notices segment? I know the reporter who used to do it (Paul Fluranges(sp?)) moved over to CBS, but that segment told me every single thing that was going on for the weekend, sometimes taking 3 or 4 minutes to complete. At the end they would say "Be sure to check those Red and White service change notices, they do contain more information and can help you plan an alternate route."
Maybe they are really serious when they are telling customers to look at those red/white signs rather than tuning in to NY1. Besides, the map that NY1 shows (or was it ch. 5) showed the yellow 63rd St shuttle service along the Broadway line for months or years when there was weekend service down 6th Ave. Another flaw was the 42nd St shuttle shown terminating on 8th Ave instead of 7th Avenue... what the heck is that!!!
This could also have been an attempt by the MTA to attract more customers by informing them there are no problems running on the system when this is usually not the case. I am just tired of watching those subway reports on 'Good Day New York' because it's always "trains are running on or close to schedule." So what is the point of including this segment then? And then on other times when you physically go out to take the subways the problem will be resolved by the time you get there. It's probably best to listen to announcements, look for those red/white signs, or ask around.
That map is on 'Good Day New York'.
>>...or ask around.
With ample caution as to WHO you ask.
Don't know why they stopped those segments. But, it may have something to do with the reporter who replaced Flueranges. IMO he has no business what so ever being a transit reporter.
Peace,
ANDEE
From yesterday's NY Daily news, pg QLI 7 (typos reproduced as well):
TROUBLE ON STARBOARD SIDE
[picture]
Boats should have stayed in the sea instead of piggybacking on tractor-tailor that was hit by LIRR train at Old Neck Road in Center Moriches. Truck was stuck on grade crossing in front of city-bound train on Montauk branch. No one was hurt. Morning commute was delayed until 10 a.m.
The picture shows C-3 cab #5008 (side door open) in perfect condition, with a totalled tractor-trailer on her nose. The boat is 3/4 off the trailer and appears undamaged.
The Newsday article goes into more detail.
http://www.newsday.com/coverage/current/news/wednesday/nd7470.htm
Forgotten Fan Mike Olshan sent me this question. I thought Subtalkers might know the answer....
The other night, I was coming home by way of changing from the A to the F at
Jay St. when I noticed something I must have walked by a thousand times. On
the downtown side,on the far wall across the tracks from the platform,
there's a doorway covered by a heavy steel shutter. At its base is a tiny
platform. I stopped to contemplate this, and put on my Sherlock hat.
This doorway would only be accessible if a train was stopped and its door
was opened on the wrong side, facing an otherwise-blank wall, not the
passenger platform. And this doorway would lead where? Into the building
above, which is Transit Authority headquarters.
So I deduced that this doorway is for the exclusive use of the Money Train
that collects revenue from all the fare booths. It's used by the armed
guards to carry moneybags into headquarters.
In my fevered imagination, I see Scrooge McDuck's money bin.
Am I right? Do you know anything about it? Have you ever seen it in use,
or know at what time of the day it is opened and used? If you do, I am
curious enough to arrange to be there to witness and photograph this ritual
of money transport.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, that's a money/token/MC card drop-off location for the Revenue Collection train. Apparently, a passage way leads into 370 Jay.
I believe a similar roll-gate is located in the tunnel wall of the N/R at the MetroTech station (northbound side). It also leads into the basement area of 370 Jay.
Doug aka BMTman
There is also one for the IRT division as well located just south of the Borough Hall Station, accessible from the Northbound 7th Av tracks. The gate is just before the turnout short of the Lex platforms.
You know, the MTA used to release statistics on Metrocard vs. token use, then stopped. And I have never heard any stats on cash vs. credit and debit card purchases since the machines were intalled (I now pay with a credit card).
Anyone know what's going on?
I would like to know why we are still seeing tokens at all. As I recall, a long time ago, when they first started talking about this Metrocard thing, they said that tokens were to be phased out by 1995/6.
Peace,
ANDEE
[I would like to know why we are still seeing tokens at all. As I recall, a long time ago, when they first started talking about this
Metrocard thing, they said that tokens were to be phased out by 1995/6.]
Many people still like using tokens. While most people now use MetroCards, some continue to buy and use tokens. My guess, based of course on entirely unscientific observations, is something in the range of 10% to 15%, which means hundreds of thousands of people a day.
It's unlikely that we'll see any immediate phaseout of tokens. If and when NYCT decides to get rid of them, there will have to be widespread public announcements and a time period during which they can be exchanged for MetroCards. Figure three months, minimum. As a result, it's a safe bet that tokens will make it into 2001.
Also Metrocard vending machines are ***NOT*** in all stations. My daily commute from Kings Hwy (D/Q) to Queens Plaza and there is not a single Metrocard machine in each station.
They have installed electrical conduit for the machines at Queens Plaza though, I'm sure in 3 months we will have the machines.
Another problem the Queens Plaza computer has being going down relgiously once a week. Then they can only sell prepackaged metrocards so without the token would the TA have to let people in FREE?? (No Way)
They don't have to have MVM's in all stations to eliminate the token. Merely sell 1.50 value cards at the token booths instead of tokens. But, since the TA is so interested in living off the "float" on the metrocards we won't see it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Queens Plaza does have MC machines, I used one 2 weeks ago. The entrance at the east end of the station.
-Hank
Also Metrocard vending machines are ***NOT*** in all stations. My daily commute from Kings Hwy (D/Q) to Queens Plaza and there is not a single Metrocard machine in each station.
My workplace station is now Houston Street on the 1/9. For some reason, MVM's are located on the downtown side only (there's no crossover), even though many more people seem to board trains heading uptown.
Similar deal for me, my home station is 86th on the Lex, and the machines are on the downtown side only. No crossover. Sure, most of the people there are heading downtown, but I plan ahead and like to refill on my way home from work. It'd be easier if I didn't have to run across Lex (and then back, since I head east from there).
Mark
Lots of folks still go out of their way to buy tokens. At this depot a bag of them goes back to the TA every day.
BTW, The new "green card", i.e. single ride ticket ... we see just over 300 per month ... not a lot compared to our total riders for the month.
Howerver our cash & tokens is down to 20% so they are going going going, just not too fast.
Mr t__:^)
I see a problem with the single ride MetroCard (The white with green print):
They buy several cards at one time and then try to use them at a later date --and of course they are useless after two hours of purchase. We give them an envelope, ask them to mail it to Jay Street and ask them to pay their fare. If they refuise they are a fare beater and we tell them to " Pay your fare" and they will be given a "souvenir" if the police are present.
I see a problem with the single ride MetroCard (The white with green print): They buy several cards at one time and then try to use them at a later date --and of course they are useless after two hours of purchase.
Why is there a two-hour limit on the single-rides?
The MTA doesn't make enough float on $1.50, so they are going to convince you one way or another to buy at least $3.00.
Seriously, since a $3.00 is good for 2 years (one year, then you can trade in an expired card for up to a year more), why would anyone buy a "green card". This only becomes a REAL issue when the token goes away totally & there ain't nobody in the booth either. What is the "Station Agent", who is outside providing SERVICE, going to say to the customer who just want to buy a token ?
Mr t__:^)
If we count transfers, then you can keep on transferring money to new cards with later expiration dates annually in perpetuity.
Aren't they basically bus transfers?
08/18/2000
[They buy several cards at one time and then try to use them at a later date --and of course they are useless after two hours of purchase.]
Maybe a different type paper MC with "Good for 2 hours from purchase" emblazoned on the front. Also a flasshing warning on the MVM screen may help.
Bill "Newkirk"
Dave, did you recently reorganize the subway line descriptions? They look slightly different, but I couldn't find anything on the site indicating an update.
By the way, what happened to the Recent Transit Headlines?
- Lyle
Yes, I've been reformatting the line by lines- no new content just different layout so I didn't mention it.
The transit headlines died because I couldn't keep up with adding new headlines. The one paper I do read every day, the NY Times, doesn't leave their links active after a day... It was just an experiment and without constant attention it wasn't very useful.
-dave
post a link to lightrail.com's newspage, when jim's not outta town it is updated
At some point in the next few months, I'm gonna have a "History of the BRT/BMT" similar in nature to the IND History for the site.
--Mark
How much could I expect to spend if I was able to locate someone selling a Lo-V style destination sign from the New York Westchester and Boston? Just asking in the event someone tries to rip me off I wanted to know the price range? Thanks everyone
Honestly...... $40-75 depending on condition.
Thanks Mark. If anyone knew I figured you or Arthur would.
The lawyers should have a field day with this....
WOMEN INJURED IN SUBWAY STATION
Peace,
ANDEE
08/18/2000
I saw the video on the news. Even the stainless steel handrails were mangled big time. The fault lies with the construction company who should have had the area roped off to keep passengers (customers) at a safe distance.
Bill "Newkirk"
Having sat through many 'project kick-off meetings' where contractors are involved, I can tell you that the contractors are required to provide certificates of insurance before work can commence. They are also required to have on site, a person solely responsible for site safety. The TA project manager is responsible to see that this is followed (likely it was). However, safety is one of those things that's harder to see than the results of its lack. We all walk around unsafe conditions every day and ignore them until someone gets hurt. Then we wring our hands and say someone should have known better.
08/18/2000
[We all walk around unsafe conditions every day and ignore them until someone gets hurt. Then we wring our hands and say someone should have known better.]
True statement, but how was it those two people were in that area when a move like that was being made? I know you can't answer that question. At Home Depot when the fork lifts are removing pallets of goods in any given aisle, both ends of the aisles are roped off and sometimes employees forbid anyone to enter the area.
Injuries are bad enough, luckily no fatalaties resulted from this accident.
Bill "Newkirk"
[First, I'm not sure if it was two incidents or the same incident reported twice about two months apart but at least one customer was killed at Home Depot when a pallet of loosely stacked lumber fell on him.]
In the subject incident, the published reports state that the TA was unaware that the contractor was going to unload the wire spool through that stairway. They would have required that the stairway be roped off. Even during station cleaning, this is policy so I have no reason to doubt it. Of course there will be an investigation and someone willbe held accountable.
As well they should. There's "accident", and then there's "Gross Negligence". This is most definately the latter. They (being the construction company) should have at least blocked access to the stairway temporarily.
-Hank
(As well they should. There's "accident", and then there's "Gross Negligence". This is most definately the latter. They (being the
construction company) should have at least blocked access to the stairway temporarily.)
I just looked at construction employment statistics -- they are up near late 1980s levels. As a friend told me, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel in an industry with a nortoriously deep barrel. The TA should save up the money, and do more work in the next recession. The quality of work done now is likely to be poor.
I just looked at construction employment statistics -- they are up near late 1980s levels. As a friend told me, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel in an industry with a nortoriously deep barrel. The TA should save up the money, and do more work in the next recession. The quality of work done now is likely to be poor.
We've all heard the joke about how you know it's time to get out of the stock market when shoeshine boys start giving stock tips. Something similar might apply with regard to construction. Back in the late 1980's in Connecticut, just before the real estate bubble popped (and popped it did!), I was reading about a contractor's woes in getting help. He had advertised for weeks for drywall installers, and got only two applicants. These two arrived together; they were from Poland or Ukraine, I don't remember which, had no green cards, no tools, no transportation, and the barest minimum of experience. Although the men didn't speak English well, they knew enough to demand $900 per week - and got it.
If construction contractors today have gotten that desparate, look out!
Gents Without Cents! I can picture this incident and if it weren't for the fact that these two customers were hurt, I would be laughing out loud. That's pretty stupid stuff there.
wayne
Now I truly have a reason to go to law school :)
Article by Al Frank in Friday's Star-Ledger describes the $25M repair and impending shutdown of the Newark Airport monorail. PA will spend $9M on replacement buses.
The 2000 "Fall Trolley Extravaganza" will be held a the Holiday Inn in King of Prussia, PA on Sept. 8 & 9, 2000.
There will be special emphasis on Subway and Rapid Transit modeling at this meet. O and HO layouts featuring New York and Chicago El/Subway models will be on display and in operation.
There will also be Manufacturers and Dealers selling Subway and Traction Models, Books, and Traction Related Railroadiana of all types. There will be clinics and door prizes will be awarded.
There is an admission charge.
The meet is open on Friday, Sept 8th from 7:00pm to 11:00pm and on Saturday from 9:30am to 5:00pm. Most activity will take place on Saturday as Friday night is basically a set-up night. Some dealers will be open on Friday night.
For more information, we can be reached by e-mail at: mtsimp@warwick.net by mail at: "Trolley Extravaganza", P.O. Box 331, Middletown, NY., 10940 or by phone at (845) 342-5623.
...or are some of the R36 cars being put into 4-car sets? I've seen some 7 trains with four cars in each train that when put in order, the numbers are consecutive, kind of like the way most of the R44 and R46 (ABBA sets) are.
It was probably coincidence. The R-36s are arranged in married pairs, and since they won't be around much longer, it wouldn't make sense to link them up into 4-car sets now.
I saw a few trains of Redbirds on the 2 some years back in which all ten cars were consecutively numbered. Last fall on the 3, cars 1958 and 1959 were coupled together on one train.
And once in a while, a two-car light rail train in Denver will have consecutively numbered cars. Most recently, I saw 118 and 119 linked togetrher. I haven't seen any three-car trains with consecutively numbered cars yet, though.
a couple of weeks ago, i was waiting for the r-142's to appear and i watched a station agent emptying a turnstile into a bucket... how are tokens accounted for?... do they take a computer reading before emptying the turnstiles, and are they responsible for matching the totals with the collected tokens?...
by the way, i am in florida, seeking asylum from the seriousness of subtalk... ( truthfully i am in an asylum in florida, hoping to become more serious so that i can continue to post on subtalk...)
Self improvement should always be seen as a positive step. I applaud your efforts. - Good luck
Steve
Now THAT was funny ... thanks,
Mr t
What is the token guy finds a slug, washer or some other kind of token substitute? Do they just throw it away or do they send it to some MTA lab to make the system proof against future fraud?
To answer both questions:
1- Token Accountablity--When we pull the wheels (empty the turnstiles) the number of tokens is transmitted to the computer inside the booth (and to Jay Street).The screen will tell us the folloowing info.:
A- Start of tour info
B- End of tour Info (which changes everytime we open the wheels)
C-difference between the two [number of tokens we should get from the wheel)
D- Total tokens from Start of Tour.
After we pull all our wheels we go back into the booth and run the tokens (use a counter to count the tokens) and verify the total against the computer's figure-- if they match we are good. If not, it is back to the wheels and take manual readings. If our computer is down, we use the readings on the top of the turnstile(the LED numbers) appearing when the wheel is opened. If we are unable to get any readings then it is a booth audit
2- Slugs, etc--anything that allowed the customer to enter will be in the pail with the tokens. We record the number of slugs found on our electronic and manual reports and send them in a small envelope to Jay Street. We dot not have to pay for any slugs found in either a sealed bag of tokens or taken from the turnstiles. We do have to pay for foreign coins we accept from customers!
3- Turnstile sensitivity- The wheels are adjusted with every slug received to further reduce slugs/foreign coins/foreign tokens foudn in turnstiles.
Some info has been withheld due to security concerns but the above is true and accurate.
thanks for your detailed answer...
at the end of a shift, is there more work and anxiety about balancing out with metrocards than when there were only tokens?... is there always a nagging fear that the money will be way off, maybe due to an error by you or an error in the computer?...have there been problems caused by errors in data transmission with the computer? does balancing out become routine after experience on the job?
and this question not necessarily to you... did the t.a. ever solve the missing millions of dollars from the money room going back a whole bunch of years ago?
[...have there been problems caused by errors in data
transmission with the computer? ...]
I suspect our Station Agent friend doesn't see the report, i.e. that's a management function :-( Since I'm one of those I see them, last week we had 59 "hiccups" occur. That's a name I gave to $655.36 that gets added to the report for no apparent reason. The mfg. did find & fix the cause of the orig. "hiccup" so I had to give this new variation a new name "Southern Nile Virus", i.e. the mfg. plant is in Tenn. he he he ...
BTW, the data errors I see aren't related to "data transmission", and since I can only see the result after the data is transmitted to the mainframe then tranmitted back again ... my reports have two shots at communications errors. Sometimes the errors are preventable, i.e. if a bus gets in an accident & you don't probe the box for three month, you guessed it a wopper, e.g. 32,000 customers board that bus on their way to a flee circus ... yes I do make jokes about the errors otherwise I would get upset with the apparent lack of concern at the mfg.
Disclaimer: I'm just the tail that trys to wag the dog here and am not in charge of the data or it's quality control. There may well be "suits" at the MTA or the mfg. who care a great deal about this, they just don't talk to lowly me.
Mr t__:^)
You are correct. I dont see the report.
To answer Hey Paul-- I did not work for Transit before AFC (MetroCard) but with AFC the computer tells us what we have to send in-- If the computer is down it is a booth audit.Yes- it does get weasdier the lonegr you do the job.
Do you prefer avacado,tangerene or apricot colored chairs in the day room.
Myself, sometimes I like the darker industrial strength battleship grey.
I just got back from the land of narrow guage banana railroads. The lowlands are wet, and the highlands are wet and windy. No eruptions to speak of. A good time was had. Traffic was light. It gets dark by six pm.
Say hi to Mickey
avid
Some of you may have Proffessor Putter's paperback on ways to spend you time playing with MCs, like me. They have them at the TA Museum and it appears that someone there has entirely too much time on their hands ;-)
Today's NY Times article is "Old MetroCards as Origami, Not Litter"
Mr t
I don't know if you heard, but a 30 year old man got dizzy on the Platform at Brooklyn Bridge, keeled over, fell to the tracks, and hit the third rail this morning. Is the third rail under the platform there, or did he somehow spill all the way across?
The third rail is always farthest away from the platform for that reason, heh, "Safety is our main concern" Keep up the good spirit MTA;-)
--Clayton Parker--
As I said B4, in Philly the 3rd rail is ALWAYS on the platform side. As a result I am always scared of falling onto the track. However it keeps the track workers safe because they can easly access the wall nooks. What is more impotant, the safety of workers who are always on the tracks or the safety of passengers who rarely fall onto the tracks?
The third rail is not always opposite the platform, sometimes it's on the platform side. Astor Place (at least the uptown side) comes to mind.
Mark
Broadway-Nassau (on the Brooklyn-bound side) is another.
wayne
He was crossing between cars with his fiance according to NY1.
I used to cross in between cars but now I rarely do because one false move and you could fall onto the tracks and get electrocuted or run over by the train.
Not worth the risk just to get in the front car or a seat, or even to get out of a hot car.
me myself I usually wait between until the train stops and get off the train and dart out of the doors and dart in the next doors of the next car.I dont like walking between cars especially when the train is moving
Actually, he was riding on a downtown #5 train with his fiance, on their way to get their marriage license. He became dizzy and went between cars for some fresh air, collapsed and fell between cars. He reportedly was a publicist whe counted jay leno as one of his clients.
Yes that messed up the Lex Line today. I was operating that R142A and heard the report as I was going downtown at 125 Street. by the time I got to 59 Street everything was moving slowly. I Just keeped on hitting the "We are sorry for this unaviodable Delay" button. The train got to Brooklyn Bridge about 30 Minutes late.
You think that was bad, 7th Aveneue wasn't the greatest place to be with the crane collapse. Trains were being turned at Times Sq and 14th St, as well as Chambers. And the 2s, meanwhile ran up on the Lex.
When all was said and done, service came back with nothbound local and expresses running at 5mph between Franklin and Canal Sts.
On an unrelated note: I noticed the Mott Av Connector between the upper (4) and lower levels (2) for the northbound 5 has been skeletonized, track replaced. Any idea when a GO is going to be issued for the concrete pour?
-Stef
There BETTER NOT be any track sprayers or any pipes for same hiding in there!!! :o>=
wayne
I answered my own question. As we speak, work is in progress on the connector....
Single Track Operation in effect until Monday Morning at 5 AM. Uptown and Downtown 2s travel by the southbound track through 149th St and GC. Official GO takes northbound track out of service from 142nd St Junction to north of Mott Av (149th St and GC), and the entire portion of the connector.
5 Service is disrupted 149th St GC to East 180th St. Expect some delays.
-Stef
There BETTER NOT be any track sprayers or any pipes for same hiding in there!!! :o>=
HUH? I very much hope there ARE plans to install track sprayers there. Does anyone know if there are?
While I am a subway "fan", the fact remains that the squeals made by trains rounding the sharp curve there are extremely unpleasant, approaching the "chalk on a blackboard" effect. I sometimes hold my ears on that stretch. Lots of young kids do likewise, and I'll bet plenty of adults are tempted to, even if most don't actually do so. I certainly don't consider the sound to be the least bit "musical".
Also according to www.metrocommute.com there was NO 7 trains between Times Square and Queensboro Plaza from 10am to 3pm Friday. What happened? I thought this work was done on nights and weekends. What a mess that must've been. Having all number 7 riders use the (N)ever must've been a nightmere!
There is a "We are sorry for this unaviodable Delay" button? Are there any others? Are there any you would like to have?
Yes there are others like
"Thank You for riding with MTA New York City Transit"
"We are being held by the Trains Dispatcher"
"To provide all our riders with the best possible service we are waiting to connect with the arriving train" ( Its something like that)
" For your safety please do not hold subway doors open"
There is also something on "do not block the doors". There are more but can't think of them there are a total of 10 buttons that play messages.
Is there a cough button or canned laughter? If you hook up a CD player to the PA system you could practive to be a DJ. You could have a second set of DJ buttons like a boing, flush, cough, laughter, ding bell, buzzer, fog horn, etc. Different T/O's could have different formats like talk, sports, top 40 or general wacky morning show. Sub-u-tainment!
Each train could have it's own format, depending on time and ridership. I'll take the train that plays jazz and adult contemporary!!
I wonder do any subway or transit systems play background music? Just think, Muzak in the subways.....
When I used to make putins, I could tape my headsets to the microphones and use shoe paddles to hold the push to talk buttons in for an excellent MUSAK system. I was thrilled to see the old Raymond Rosen P.A.s removed in place of COMCO setups. They have deep bass with the newer cone speakers. The R27 and the old R32 systems sucked while listening to news, music, and yes, traffic and transit together. The R10 and the R44 cars were best suited for MUSAK. R38s have too much backfeed and echo. Don't even ask about the IRT, although I'd suppose the M&K R26 cars have the same quality sounds, I just never tried it.
If I didn't feel well going in between cars is the LAST thing I'd do. I'd try to sit down on the train (if there was a seat) or leave the train and take a seat somewhere in the station.
Humph......
I used to love riding between the cars!
A pair of R9s racing on the express tracks through queens...
One car tilts this way and the following the other!
Nobody thought any thing of it in those days.
Elias
I don't know what it is, but In the 2 months that I have worked at Mcdonalds, I have seen alot of Transit workers. I guess its because its near the Bus Depots and Train stations. During the average day, I cannot even count the number of Bus and Train operators I see.
If they are bus operators, they are probally using your "facilities" as it tends to be a problem for them, i.e. prop. with facilities want you to buy lots of stuff to use them, but the more a operator buys, the more he/she needs to use them ... a lose lose problem.
Mr t__:^)
Transit Workers and Subtalkers alike, all love Quarter Pounders with Cheese!
Used to like Wendy's better, but lately their food tastes soggy and stale, McDonald's seems fresher, and it's a better buy (Wendy's sizes have shrunk). Also Wendy's aren't exactly easy to come across, and when you find one there always a long line.
Then again, I try to eat less of that fast food stuff. I like chinese food and pizza better. It tastes better and is cheaper, plus you are giving you're money to a local businessman, not a multi-million dollar chain.
If you're in Great Neck try a slice of pizza at Francesca's, right across from the RR station on the north side, VERY VERY GOOD!!!
For Chinese food there's great place called Kwong Ming(Jerusalem ave,Wantagh), very traditional chinese resteruant setting, and excellent food. I'd recommend the Lo Mein or Fried Rice. When I lived in Wantagh I always took out food from there.
08/18/2000
Here we go talking about food again!!
The quarter pounders with cheese would be better if they shelved those raw onions. Sauteed would be better, like White Castle.
White Castle......now that's rocket fuel!
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't make the mistake by eating six double white castles late at night. I did recently with another railfan and I was sick when I got up later in the day.I think I ate them around 3:00 A.M.
08/19/2000
[Don't make the mistake by eating six double white castles late at night. I did recently with another railfan and I was sick when I got up later in the day.I think I ate them around 3:00 A.M.]
That's why they call them "belly bombers" !!
Bill "Newkirk"
My friends and I called them "murder burgers"......
3TM
Mike, you are confusing me with all your different handles: SubBus, 3TM and now 3Train#1973 Mike. Weren't you 3Train#3119 Mike just recently??
Ya gotta fill me in on all your different personas ;-)
BTW, give me an e-mail. I have a question about the pics you need scanned...
Doug aka BMTman
There are several "Michaels" here. The one you are refering to, as long as he has ever posted here is "mike".
You need to have a belly full of beer first!
-Hank
Hey Bill:
Yeah Baby! Sauteed onions would be better, just like at TADS! Want some ooooooooonions?
Next time we go to city, now I know where we have to eat!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
08/20/2000
[Hey Bill:
Yeah Baby! Sauteed onions would be better, just like at TADS! Want some ooooooooonions?
Next time we go to city, now I know where we have to eat!
We've got: Hot Lunch!]
Well when we have lunch in the city and any kind of onions are involved, just let me walk along side of you to spare me the mercy of the flame thrower!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
Aw c'mon, I'm not really like that classic video I e-mailed you! I was just thinking back to all those photo and nostalgia trips we took that started out or ended with a great (alright, maybe just good) meal at TADS.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to some photo trips hopefully this September.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Sounds like another BMT standard/Triplex analogy to me.:-)
There is a very big difference between White Castle
and MacDonald's. White Castle is basically a place
for a snack/meal; a place to go late at night after
drinking or a place to have an occasional
meal with the family. MacDonald's, on the other
hand, tries for the children's market in their
advertising. They want people to think they're a
wholesome, nutricious family restaurant. Hell, how
can you not like a place that sponsors Ronald
MacDonald House, a place for parents of kids with
cancer to stay at. My son Arthur can go on a long trip with me and
can point out every MacDonald's on the way!!!
The truth of the matter is: MacDonalds,
Burger King, Wendy's, etc are all
Cardiologists delights!!! We will have more people
dying of heart attacks in the next few generations
because of these fast food places hardening their
arteries. At least with White Castle people eat it
in moderation, like once a month or even less!!!
The truth of the matter is: MacDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, etc are all Cardiologists delights!!! We will have more people dying of heart attacks in the next few generations because of these fast food places hardening their arteries. At least with White Castle people eat it in moderation, like once a month or even less!!!
Moderation??? Not at _Chateau Blanc_, that's fer sure. White Castle conisseurs will practically sell their souls for the stuff. You won't find that sort of till-death-do-us-part loyalty at Mickey D's or the other fast food joints.
Wow. I was the one who originated this message and I didn't even expect this many responses. Anyway, I work in the Cambria heights Branch by the Q4 bus. I think you guys are right. Some people come into the McDonalds EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! I am not a cashier, but If I were, I would know what to get them, because they order the same stuff everyday!!!. Some people already struggle thru the door and they still come everyday. Did somebody say McBypass!!!
By the way, the reason I know so much about all of McDonalds sandwhiches and its secrets, is because I cook the burgers on the grill and assemble all of the Lunch burgers like big macs and so on...
F Train
Surprise people: Start putting Mustard on the QPC...
-Hank
>>>Surprise people: Start putting Mustard on the QPC... <<
They do that in Massachusetts.
The perception may be that NYC is not a mustard on burgers kind of town.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I took my new car down to AC Sunday, at the foot of the AC Expressway, I got a Quarter-pounder w/cheese. Mustard on it. Yum!
-Hank
I could have sworn McDonald's in South Bend used to put mustard on their hamburgers. That was back in the good old days when their hamburgers were 15 cents.
At least now they use vegetable oil for their fries instead of beef tallow. Eeeeww!!!
And the fries at Mickey D's haven't been the same since!!!
Then there's good old cardiac meat lover's pizza. Bacon, sausage, hamburger, the works.
There is a very big difference between White Castle
and MacDonald's. White Castle is basically a place
for a snack/meal; a place to go late at night after
drinking or a place to have an occasional
meal with the family. MacDonald's, on the other
hand, tries for the children's market in their
advertising. They want people to think they're a
wholesome, nutricious family restaurant. Hell, how
can you not like a place that sponsors Ronald
MacDonald House, a place for parents of kids with
cancer to stay at. My son Arthur can go on a long trip with
me and
can point out every MacDonald's on the way!!!
The truth of the matter is: MacDonalds,
Burger King, Wendy's, etc are all
Cardiologists delights!!! We will have more people
dying of heart attacks in the next few generations
because of these fast food places hardening their
arteries. At least with White Castle people eat it
in moderation, like once a month or even less!!!
I tend to go for Wendy's Big Bacon Classics myself - singles, that is. No more triples for me.
Thats because most of the time thats all a Transit Worker has time to eat between trips. At Pelham most crews get Pizza as a quick fix if they only have 30 Minutes for lunch or some just bring lunch from home.
At the Utica IRT, there are a lot of transit workers at that Micky D's. Not only does the 3 and 4 terminate there but the B14 and B17 buses terminate there as well.. But then again at Utica and Eastern Pkwy, you have McDonalds, Popeyes, a new food court with Taco Bell and Golden Krust......
3Train#1973Mike
A good way to make a fortune seems to be to open an eatery near a transit facility or terminal. By the Van Cortlandt terminal AND yard, there are several diners, a Chinese and a Burger King. If you hit one at a shift change, it can be mobbed with maintenance workers, not to mention conductors and T/Os between runs.
I wonder if all the workers who lay over at Coney eat at Nathan's, or has the novelty worn off for them? That cafeteria on the overpass is probably convenient enough, especially on a tight schedule or in bad weather.
There's a McDonald's down the block from where I grew up in Whitestone, and you'll see many out-of-service Queens Surface express buses parked outside of it in the early morning and mid-evening hours.
(Several routes deadhead past here between the garage and the ends of the Bay Terrace routes.)
Near the Queens Surface facility is a large shopping center containing a McDonald's, Wendy's, Dunkin' Donuts, pizza, two Chinese and a fried fish joint. There too you'll see many QS and MTA buses parked on the service road outside, and many cars with Corona and Stengel parking stickers in the lot itself.
Now I'm HUNGRY-
The cafeteria on the overpass at Stillwell closed about five years ago. The owner passed away. I ate there once, the food was too greasy for me, way too greasy! The present location houses the crew reporting center.
From Monday to Wedensday, I was in san Fran. That city is a gold mine for railfans. I rode BART from Colma to Richmond and to Dublin/Pleansanton. The gap between the two stations on the Dublin branch is long, like ten minutes. And the last stop is in the middle of nowhere. I thought BART was expensive to ride on. A $3.80 fee if you get on and off at the same station? Watch out railfans. Also, the tunnel segments, especially the bay tunnel, was LOUD. Ear piercing, high decibal loud. Under the bay, I thought I was going to get a headache. Those are some fast trains, though. The stations are long as hell, too. If a 75 ft. ten car train can fit in a station, then that makes them 750 ft. long platforms. The stations were nice looking. I thought the headways were too long, even during rush hour. At around 8:30am, at Civic Center, it took ten minutes for a train to come. Instead of running ten car trains, they should run five cars and run trains more frequently. MARTA does this, but their reason is because of a car shortage. There are a lot of seats in each car, not enough room for standees. But then again, the trains were never really crowded. The seat were comfortable as hell, I'm suprised the cushions would last as long as they do. I thought the digital horn thing was kinda cheesy, but I liked it. The signs on the platform inicating what train is coming is genius. Every subway system should have this. At Colma, I thought having part of the train yard under the parking deck was a clever way of saving space. BART seems more like commuter rail than a subway, even more so when you compare it to MUNI.
I absolutely love MUNI. The variety of transportation they have makes me wonder if I missed anything. The light rail lines were great. They ran often, frequently, and fast. I rode all of the N, J, and M lines. I like the way underground, the platforms are raised, and above ground, the stairs go down. The F line trolleys are awesome, rode both types of them. I like the orange old trolleys and the PCCs, too. First time I ever rode a PCC. The cable cars are phizzat. (I only reserve "phizzat" for something that is off the chart.) I rode the California street one and the Powell and Hyde lines. The tourists don't seem to know about California street. What nerve some tour companies have making their buses lok like the cable cars. The thought that was lame in other cities, but in San Fran, it's even lamer.The also rode the bus to the Golden Gate bridge, which is the coolest bridge on the planet. The electric buses are really quiet, I like them. I rode all of this off a $6 visitor day pass, what a bargain. BART didn't even offer a day pass, their excuse was because of the distance based fares. The DC Metro offers a day pass, and their distance based, too.
I think MUNI and BART are begging (not literally) to be unified. I can hear the stations and stairs on Market street crying out, "pleeaaasse offer free transfers betwen our stations."
Great transit in this city.
Rob from Atlanta's subway personality-o-meter (scale of 1-10)
BART- 4
MUNI- 8
Rob, a few comments from one who goes to SFO often... and loves it!
You can save money on BART by not entering and exiting at the same station when railfanning. Just get on (for example) at Powell, ride to your heart's content, then exit at Civic Center -- all for $0.85.. Hopefully you will have your MUNI PASS to get you back to your origination station.
The "other" cars you rode on the F-line are probably the Milan cars. They are a recent addition to the F-line, since the opening of the Embarcadero stretch. The PCCs you rode are originally from SEPTA (Philadelphia) -- though one or two are SFO originals (the double-enders).
I agree with your pleasures of the cable cars, and displeasures of the imitations. At Seashore, we call the trolley-look-alikes that run on rubber tires through Ogunquit and Kennebunkport "tin can trolleys." So those would be "tin can cable buses" I guess!
When you rode the MUNI Metro, did you experience:
Real-time, in-service coupling/uncoupling at West Portal?
The "pulsing" of the Boeing LRVs while operating under Automatic Train Operation in the subway?
The switch-back curves of the J/Church line while going up/down Mission Hill?
The high-speed straight-away section of the J/Church extension?
The contraflow street running of the F/Market along 17th street just before Castro?
The automated announcements in the subway stations telling you when the next train would arrive, where it was going, and how many cars it has?
Yeah, I knew not to enter and exit at the same station, I was just pointing out what I read on the fare chart at the stations. I don't think that there was any coupling going on at West Portal, but I was facing the back of the train, so I wouldn't know, I thought the tunnel just before West Port was really long and straight. I remeber the pulsing, were the Boeing the yellow cars? I thought I felt the pulsing on the Breda ones, too. I remember the curves. I rode the F line Milan cars from around Fisherman's wharf to Powell, I think. Then, I got on a PCC and rode that to the World Trade Center, and then walked back to Embarcadro. And I did like those annoucements, it took the mystery of wondering how long you would have to wait.
I just remembered that when I was riding BART downtown, I was walking down the stairs to the platform, when I was passing down the MUNI platform, I noticed the width of the MUNI tracks, and only then can you really tell that BART is wide guage. I couldn't tell, even though I knew, when I first got on at Colma.
Also, I saw the people mover they are building at SFO. At first I thought it was the BAERT extension, but the curves looked too sharp for BART, later on I saw a sign telling what they were doing. When will it be completed?
I don't know about when the SFO people mover will be done. My favorite part of the J isn't the switchback curves in-street, but rather where it cuts into peoples' backyards to avoid the hill. I personally have experienced the coupling-uncoupling at West Portal. Usually it was pretty fun but one day i had a really bad experience.
I had taken the J to Balboa Park and was waiting to catch on M or K to get back to SF on a different line (this was the first time I rode the MUNI metros). Of course you know that the K/J platform is a different one from the M. Well anyway I'm standing on the M, along comes an outbound M turning into a K so i start running across the street to the K platform, light turns red and i have to wait for cars, by the time I get there it's just pulling away so I walk back to the M platform. The a two-unit Breda consist comes outta the yard and I'm like "great" because it says M on it. WRONG. It stops like it's going to reverse onto the track but then switches to a K, gets people and splits before I can get to the K platform again. Then a J (outbound) comes towards me and I'm like "yes finally" but instead of turning into an M it rolls RIGHT PAST ME on the platform and goes into the yard. Finally an outbound K comes and turns into an M and we'rre off. But I've been waiting 13 minutes at Balboa (extremely LONG for a MUNI metro). Now what happens when there is a huge service gap? That thing filled to capacity at the third stop (the college)...the college platform was PACKED. SRO. I had a seat at least. Anyway a couple more curb stops and it is so packed people have to wait before the next train because there is literally no more room to squish people in. Did I mention that this was a Boeing that smelled of urine, and probably hadn't been washed in a week at least? Anyway we get to West Portal and couple to a K right away. Then they make ALL of us get out on the platform for no apparent reason. They say an L is on its way, we're waiting to couple to it too. Except it is magically late and we're there 8 minutes before it arrives. Finally we get back in and run through the tunnels. Interesting thing about the tunnel is that it smells strongly of coal. I wonder if they dug through some when they built it. But since the Boeings don't have AC all the windows were open and thus we all got coal smell on us. Wasn't that bad though, wore off in about 15 minutes.
Anyway every other time I've ridden anything MUNI it has always been a pleasure, that was just a really bad day. One thing is, most people don't check that 6.00 pass to see what day it is so I used the same pass 3-4 different days on two different trips down there. The Milan cars' wheels were still being reground last time I was there but I rode a few ex-Septic PCCs. I think the main reason for the MUNI's character is that BART was mostly master planned, and built to the same specs, the MUNI evolved over time with private streetcars, then municipal streetcars, the building the market street tunnel and eventually converting to Light Rail. That's what gives it it's character - the old (100+year old lines) and the new (The Brannan Extension). Same reason the subway has so much character, it has over 100 years of history, then the different companies...obviously the IRT, BMT, and IND but then all the smaller companies that built Els or owned lines that were converted to Subway, etc.
Its always interesting to see someone else's take on your own backyard. I am glad you enjoyed BART and MUNI.
For a reality check, however, try visiting >>http://www.rescuemuni.org/<< Things are not as rosy as you may have thought on a daily basis. As to transfers/fares IMHO, ALL distance based fare systems on urban transit are a total ripoff--and BART is one of the worst--NO high usage discount passes(except within SF where the monthly MUNI pass is good on BART-yeah!). The downtown Market St stations were originally designed to be a single system--then politics wrecked the scheme. When next out here check out San Jose--an interesting LRV system which is growing--also some vintage cars downtown. Enjoy.
Despite whatever MUNI does wrong, SF has a large emphasis on public transport as evidenced by the fact that they have just opened the Embarcadero extensions and it looks like the 3rd ave line will be built.
They also have managed to keep a large electric bus fleet and have streetcars and commuter rail too.
I amazed how great the public transit was there despite its flaws.
don't dis on SF, it kicks @$$!
Is BART still battling with the PUC over closer headways?
>>http://www.bart.gov/inside/planning/srtp.htm<<
will take you to the short range plan document which discusses plans for a yet newer control system which , if implemented, and, if reliable, might get them tighter headways on some lines. *They do not exprct to deploy systemwide as they don'y care about tighter headways at ends of some branches. This is from the same set of geniuses who recently decided to cook the cost of the SFO extension by deferring purchase of new cars to staff higher service needs--better maintenance and advanced train control "will allow more efficient car utilization" We shall see.
"if reliable" -remember the "phantom stations?" from the 70's
A couple of years ago, I had the good fortune to visit the IRT substation near Queens Plaza on a NYTM tour. The substation was about to be retired, and we got a good look at some old rotary converters and other equipment. I've seen the building since, and it is covered with tarp and appears to be in a rennovation of some sort. Also, I could no longer make out the 'IRT' sign on the front of the building.
1) Anybody know what it's going to be?
2) What happened to all the equipment?
There was a thread about his absence awhile back but it seems to have disappeared mysteriously...anyone know where our friendly R9 man is?
Here is the link to the heypaul thread,
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=145364
Perhaps he decided to stay at Niagara Falls longer than he expected!
uh, look down about five messages, he posted a new topic
I'm not sure he posted that message from his apartment.
More likely it was posted from a padded cell in a mental hospital.
Hopefully he will resurface...
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, when if he resurfaces.
If he could float as well asn those rubber ducks we wouldn't have a problem
He said he was in Florida -probably visiting the Seinfelds in Del Boca Vista (Phase II)
Makes sense, since "you can put a fence around these condos and call it a mental hosptial and no one would know the difference!"
08/18/2000
[He said he was in Florida -probably visiting the Seinfelds in Del Boca Vista (Phase II)]
Or even worse yet, maybe he's on the beach checking out those thong wearing beach babes impressing them with his R-9 cab mockup......some guys have all the luck!
Bill "Newkirk"
I think he's seeing less of the R-9 and more of the D-38.
since we have the SF and Atlanta threads I thought I'd start another. How many subtalkers have been to Portland?
Since we have SF, Atlanta and Portland, I thought I'd add Vancouver, which we visited recently.
First of all, I love Vancouver, it is a beautiful city!
The transit system doesn't offer much in terms of rail service, except the SkyTrain, which is cool, but I wasn't too impressed with it.
The buses are a different story. BC Transit/TransLink has a very diverse bus fleet, with electric buses, and all sorts of diesel buses - New Flyers low-floor 40' and 60' (articulated), MCI Classics, various Orion models, even GMC Fishbowls! I'm not sure what make the electrics were, but they kicked a$$! They also had diesel versions of the electric bus types.
While there, I rode several electrics, two New Flyer (40'), and two fishbowls - the only (and probably last) fishbowl rides I was old enough to appreciate!
And the only RTS's I saw were the light green Airport buses (they were the ones with the "new" front).
Vancouver's "Skytrain" system is quite impressive. Five minute headways most of the day, fully automated train operation, and the loads it carries!!! The suspension bridge out towards Surrey is beautiful, probably one of the most beautiful bridges in the world.
There is a new line being built that will leave the present one at Broadway and rejoin it near the Columbia station. An additional 80 cars will be added tot he fleet for this extension.
As for those RTS buses, for the longest while, they were the only RTS's in Canada until Toronto bought a bunch (other than one in Stratcona County and another ex-demo somewhere else). Those eight RTS's in Vancouver were delivered to Charter Bus Lines of B.C. and have Cummins engines.
i have about 15 cousins in vancouver and thus am up there quite often, and yes Skytrain does kick @$$! it's too crowded after B.C. lions games though so if yuou're in the city at the same time you can save yourself a hassle by taking the bus home. Suburban Vancouver is also VERY transit-friendly with good bus service
I only rode the ST for a couple stations in downtown, so I can't really speak for the elevated portion.
The fact that the trains are automated is pretty cool, but as for appeal/style, it didn't do that much for me.
To each their own, I guess.
you need to check out suburban van. the whole place is designed for transit. right now it's just good bus service (15-30 routes all over the place) but the developements are designed to have easy walking distance to bus stops, etc. - pick any street to put light rail on and it would be a success instantly. Anothher thing of Vancouver's is the lack of freeways in downtown. The 99 freeway connects with I-5 at the washington border but ends a few miles from downtown and you gotta go down Hastings. The 91 and a couple other spurts serve the industrial areas south of Van but they mainly serve to get trucks in and out of there (these areas have kickass bus service as well). The trans-canada highway crosses the second narrows well short of downtown and starts climbing out of the valley almost immediately (it is called "upper levels highway" there) - this segment serves mainly as a route to the Nanaimo ferry terminal and as a ski road (the four resorts all have their access roads interchaning there) but there isn't a lot of development on the ul. AND THAT'S THE ONLY FREEWAYS IN THE WHOLE AREA! VAncouver's insistence on developing european-style (motorways end at the city) instead of american style (freeways go right through downtown) has paid off. Thus Vancouver's high transit ridership. All B.C. transit is operated as subsidiaries of the main B.C. Transit. So wherever you go the buses look alike. B.C. is stingy with money and you can find Fishbowls and even earlier buses driving around all over the place. The Vancouver area's transit recently becamse independent of the central B.C. Transit to better serve Vancouver. They are the first such agency in B.C.. The system of having it all underneath the state has the advantage that many rural towns all have their own bus systems - but at the same time major service changes are very slow because of all the red tape. The city of Abbotsford (my grandparents on my mom's side live there) has a transit system doesn't serve the major shopping areas south of town that include a "one-stop shopping store" similar to Auchan (for the southerners on these boards) or Fred Meyer (for us northwesterners), a Costco, and a couple of stripmalls. There is still no bus service in this area, yet lightly developed areas of Abbotsford have 30-minute service all day. So it's a trade-off. Going back to Skytrain, it is actually remarkably nice looking CONSIDERING that it was built in the 80s (well the first segments) and every other 80s system had much uglier rolling stock. Personally I have never been in the tunnel sections, only the El and surface areas so if Jersey dude or whatever thinks they're ugly, maybe they are...i don't know. But look at the other side - L.A. Metro North Hollywood. Nice looking, HUGE cost overruns. I wonder if Salaam reads this and will post a reply mentioning the orange empire museum...
I was impressed by Vancouver when I visited in 1988 (my only exposure to the left coast and it's lifestyle), but not by it's transit.
There was only one rail line out to some suburbs (still true?), plus a couple of ferries. We were out on Granville Island one evening, a great place, and went to catch a water taxi back to Downtown. We saw one ready to leave, but decided not to rush. It turned out that that was the last one of the night, at something like 10 p.m.! We had to walk over one bridge to the wrong bank, well inland, then back over another big bridge across the harbor. Then we had to walk through the red light district, which was scary until we remembered we were in Canada not New York.
Anyway, I remember Vancouver's Downtown as being swarming with children. Quite a contrast with Manhattan, which is pretty much an adults-only scene and not child friendly at all.
Then we had to walk through the red light district, which was scary until we remembered we were in Canada not New York.
What, was it more like a yellow-light district?
I think that it's legal in Canada because they don't have such a horrible puritanical streak like 49 states in the US.
why'd you have to walk at all? if you were on Granville at 10 p.m. trolleybus service on Hastings runs every 15 minutes you had no excuse for walking...
I was inPortland in 11/97, just stopped to check our the Tri-Met MAX rail system while driving up to Seattle from southern California. I was quite impressed.
The right-of-way seemed to be well taken care of, the track was smooth, and the trains themselves spotlessly clean. I got a chancd to ride one of the first low-floor units in service, and they are also very nice pieces of equipment though they do make some strange noises at times.
I'll be going up to Seattle in another couple weeks so I will be making another stop in Portland to check out the Westside MAX segment which opened just after I was up there. (And I'll update the track schematic map that I did for NY Subway Resources the last time!)
Just came back two weeks ago from a two-week stay.
My Dad (who lives in Winchester VA) called me this evening to inform me that he had heard on the local news that 192 new Metrorail cars are soon to be delivered. This is an interesting development which leads me to several questions. Any feedback from our Washington squad (WMATAGMOAGH; Chao-Hwa Chen, Mark Greenwald etc.), would be greatly appreciated.
These would be 5000-series (i.e. 5000-5191) if they keep the current numbering scheme, correct?.
Isn't a new (Spanish) manufacturer slated to do this order?
Is this an add-on purchase or are they going to retire the Rohr cars at the tender age of 24 (SHAME ON THEM if they do!). If not, this would bring the total number of cars to 956. They'll be opening the Green line extension to Branch Avenue in either January or March of 2001 - I suppose they'll need a few more cars to handle it but do they have other plans?
I wonder if they're going to use the new seat color scheme in these...
wayne
I just read that two pairs of the Metrorail cars have already arrived at Greenbelt. WMATA's web site said they will go into service in the beginning of 2001. They are going to use the new color scheme inside but I don't know if the outside will look different.
You beat me to it. Here is what WTOP had on their web site:
Metro Unveils New Train Cars
Kenya Ray, wtopnews.com
Neal Augenstein, WTOP News
It is that time of the year again when new car models are being unveiled. And now, the same holds true for Metro.
The first four of the 192 train cars ordered by Metro have arrived, and General Manager Richard White invited the press to kick the tires.
"We're not really changing anything about the outside of the cars," says White.
However, there is a new color scheme. Metro describes the colors as Chesapeake Sand, Colonial Burgundy and Potomac Blue.
"In addition, we have some new features. We have some new interior signs for people to give them more information on where the train is destined to and which door is opening up. "
Metro is also adding barriers between cars to prevent accidential entry by blind passengers or falls. There will also be panels added between door sills and the platform to reduce the possibility of foot injuries.
And perhaps more importantly, White says the cars were designed to certain standards that Metro already uses, which should make them easy to service.
White also says Metro doesn't expect to run into the same problems it had with its escalators when companies were going out of business, making it impossible to get replacement parts.
The cars on display today should be in service by December. The other 188 on order should be in use by the year 2002.
---END OF ARTICLE---
That pretty much answers all the questions. I meant to post this last night (before Shabbat Dinner) but was busy doing other things.
There is a small blurb about the new cars in today's Washington Post with 2 black and white photos (not very good considering the article is called "A Colorful Change". Some changes I noticed from these not so great pictures are that the handles on the seatbacks are like those on the Rohr cars and I couldn't see the bar that goes from one end of the car to the other. Also, the interior sign is partially blocked by a handhold. I'll try to scan the article once the younger siblings get off the other computer.
Here is the article from today's Washington Post:
The pictures aren't that great but you will notice a few things from the photos.
Who's the builder? Neither your post or the .jpg of the Post article gives who got the contract for the 192 cars.
Chao-Hwa Chen has the answer in his post. AAI of Maryland did the interiors, exteriors were done in Spain.
Is a field trip to Hunt Valley Maryland in the (dream) works?
No. I might be able to get us to Metro HQ if anyone is interested or we can meet up on Saturday, January 13 for the Green Line opening if we want to do a DC field trip.
Is Chinese food available?
What does that have 2 do w/ the tour? It isn't even scheduled 4 me, let alonge other subtalkers.
Considering the location of WMATA office location.....
Wayne,
Yes, it should be.
Yes, it is.
Since yellow and blue line trains are expanding to six-car trains, I don't think Rohr cars will be retired.
According to today's Washington Post, the three colors will be Potamac Blue, Colonial Burgundy, and Chesapeake Sand. It seems that the colors are localized!
Chaohwa
Same colors as the LIRR seats except they have the additional color "Sand" which should be more like a Bone or a very light Beige. I wonder what color the rugs are going to be.
What was that Spanish mfr's name again?
I have just put another page in my Master Numbers Book - the blank page which follows the 3000- and 4000- series Breda Cars; it has two empty columns.
thanks to all for the information!
wayne
The floor will have specks of all 3 colors. Walls will be a creame color.
Did you see the article I posted? Doesn't have much info but you can see the carpet in 1 pic. The pic they took doesn't show the new colors but I have a computer graphic in an old newspaper which I could scan and post.
I found the link to the original article in the Post which shows the new interior.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/metro14.htm
Oh NO!!! They're going to retrofit the older cars with the new color scheme? I don't mind the new one - they should leave the older cars the way they are. I don't feel that the color scheme is dated. It happens to look rather nice. The new scheme's OK too - perhaps they should change the blue though.
wayne
Once they run out of orange carpet, the new design will be installed in the new cars. Get photos while you can. At the time of the order, WMATA had a 3 year supply of orange carpet.
At least Metro isn't tinkering with the exterior design. I may be a minority of one, but I really think NYC should have stuck with the original R-46 design...I think the 68 and the 143 are distinctively uninspired boxes on rails. The Metro cars still harken the days in the 1970s when there was such optimism about "futurisitic" mass transit systems.
I found the link to the original article in the Post which shows the new interior.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/metro14.htm
Oh NO!!! They're going to retrofit the older cars with the new color scheme? I don't mind the new one - they should leave the older cars the way they are. I don't feel that the color scheme is dated. It happens to look rather nice. The new scheme's OK too - perhaps they should change the blue though.
wayne
Once they run out of orange carpet, the new design will be installed in the new cars. Get photos while you can. At the time of the order, WMATA had a 3 year supply of orange carpet.
At least Metro isn't tinkering with the exterior design. I may be a minority of one, but I really think NYC should have stuck with the original R-46 design...I think the 68 and the 143 are distinctively uninspired boxes on rails. The Metro cars still harken the days in the 1970s when there was such optimism about "futurisitic" mass transit systems.
I scanned the full printed photo when it was published back in April 1999:
(Please pardon the fold lines, etc.)
As you can see, the new "sand" color is very close to the old orange.
My opinion is that they should pick one or two primary colors, not three. Three (red, blue, and orange) looks weird.
Good enough. My pic was a comparison between old and new so half the pic has the old scheme.
08/20/2000
Isn't that an artists conception? It doesn't really look like a photograph to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
It is most definately computer generated from a photo of a Breda car. If you were to look at my unscanned article, you can easily tell.
IIRC they showed the car in revenue service on the TV news with officials showing off the colors and getting rider comment, but I think it was a Breda car that had been refitted with the new color scheme. The electronic signs and other "goodies" weren't shown.
You're right. Looking at the newspaper photo, you can see that they didn't quite get the perspective right on the carpet texture.
That isn't how. On my pic, the left half of the car is the old scheme which they could never get with the new cars and with the other half of the car with the new scheme. Also, there are handholds missing and the doors are the same as in the Breda Cars.
The Spanish builder is called CAF. I don't know the whole name.
The car bodies are manufactured at CAF's modern plant in Spain, but other components are built in the United States, and final assembly takes place at AAI's Hunt Valley plant in Maryland.
I get this information from the July 1998 issue of the late RailNews magazine.
Chaohwa
Here is a link about an April 1998 Washington Post article about the new car contract.
Chaohwa
This just in...
According to the 11:00 news tonight, the Haymarket station on the MBTA Orange Line was the scene of utter chaos toward the end of this evening's rush hour. Apparently a couple guys decided it would make for a funny prank if one of them grabbed a piece of flexible metal electrical cunduit and tossed it onto the third rail.
The conduit hit the third rail and caused a short circuit between the third rail and the nearby running rail, creating a spectacular explosion that filled the subway station with thick smoke and sent hundreds of terrified commuters running for their lives. The station was shut down and Orange Line service was suspended for several hours.
Amazingly, there were no reports of injuries, and the pranksters were arrested soon after questioning by police. Channel 7 showed the suspected perp being led away in handcuffs, and boy did he look like a real winner. (Real funny, pal.)
More news as it becomes available...
-- David
Boston, MA
(I'd use an Orange Line graphic if I had one, but since the Green Line also stops at Haymarket I guess this is close enough.)
Go here for more info: http://www.whdh.com/news/topstory.shtml
-Nick
That's what happens when you don't put a freaking COVER over the 3rd rail!!!!!
DUUUUDE! people never cease to amaze me. Mass-hole hammerheads no doubt!
I have a hypothetical question.
If you live and work in a part of town without subways (for 7 years, I lived in Auburndale and worked in Port Washington) and you take the bus to and from work, where do you get a Metrocard refilled? All that time, I'd get my card filled when I found myself in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx or western Queens and went to a token booth and later, a Metrocard machine.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Do the MetroCard buses go into these areas?
All busses providing local and express service in the City of New York and County of Nassau accept Metrocard.
I believe he's referring to the buses that go around to random major transportation points and sell, refill, and show you how to use Metrocards. On Long Island, I've only seen the MetroCard van at Rooselvelt Field and possibly Valley Stream (leaving).
Right--those buses.
One wouldn't refill it, instead one would buy a new one from a store of Citysearch.com every so often.
heypaul has sent me several interior pictures of the gate cars at the Transit Museum. I notice in one long shot that the three end chains seem to be hooked across the end of 1273 instead of being hooked to the next car.
In actual service these chains between cars were always hooked to the next car permitting passage between cars.
Does the Museum do this to prevent passage between cars even though the cars are on static display at the Museum?
They've done this on all the cars. It used to be you could walk from one car to the next and to the one after that and you could walk all the way to the end of the platform without exiting. Now, they have locked the storm doors to prevent passage so you must exit each car to get to the next one.
That seems like such a shame, especially in the case of the gate cars. I imagine that the other cars are a mixture of models, and may or may not line up as well as cars of the same model.
I suppose that there are people just looking for something that they can file a lawsuit over today.
Very likely, and we're all too painfully aware that individual negligence can still end with a nice husky payment to the negligent. Come now, a million dollars because coffee was hot and one spilled it on themself.[Deep pockets or not it isn't right] We might wind up kissing that museum goodbye if there's a major claim, I said might but anything can happen.
There's hot and then there's hot.
The coffee in question was hot enough to scald. A clear case of negligence by the restaurant. (No comment, however, on the size of the award.
Then there are also faulty lids and cups.
For the safety of toddlers, small children (and non-thinking older kids), the TA Museum stopped the practice of walking through cars some years ago.
All storm doors are locked and as an added protection, small gates have been erected between cars along the platform edge, even though pantographs are on all or most of the units.
There must have been a problem otherwise those measures would not have been taken.
Doug aka BMTman
Small children and toddlers used to have their hand held by an adult when on public transit. I suppose today that children visiting the Transit Museum probably run around without any adult supervision.
I have seen a picture of the gate cars indicating they no longer have Van Dorn couplers but a type of subway coupler.
Are all of the different model cars at the museum coupled in a long train or are they just parked coupler to coupler?
Money Car "G" still has it's Van Dorns. The gate cars -- I'll have to take a look on a lunch hour.
Yes, some of the R types in the museum are indeed coupled together. This includes the R-1>R-10>R-11. I believe the IRT units are done in the same fashion.
Doug aka BMTman
The Gate Cars have their original van dorns, plus a pair of adapters for movement with other equipment. On one end, you can find an MCB Coupler Head for coupling with Steeple Cab 5, and on the other end, an H2 Head for coupling with other rolling stock. The BRT Gate Cars are coupled almost always with Locomotive #5 for movement.
-Stef
Furthermore,
When the Lo-V Motor Cars were at the Transit Museum, before the triumphant return of 4902, one could find the the Gate Cars, and the surviving Q Car coupled end to end. What a sight! 1612C and Gate Cars (1622ABC) that used to be Q Types at one time or another....
-Stef
And even though the cars were "un-Q-ed", they still have the lowered clearstory that the last TA rebuild gave them, and they are still a 3-car set that cannot be split.
That's right. You know your facts my friend....
You forgot one other thing. The trucks aren't original. These trucks came off IRT Composites that went to scrap when the Qs were transferred to the 3rd Av El in 1950.
-Stef
Know it, just failed to mention it. A left-over from their sojurn on the 3rd Avenue El.
One thing about that long-ago transplant. Were the Composites OOS in storage in 1950, or were they still running on the Els when the transfer was made and took the 1200 trucks to the scrapper? If still running, why replace steel-framed, wood bodied cars with totally wooden equipment?
One would guess that at this time, the Qs were a far more valuable commodity, being that they underwent rebuilding in 1938-39, and scrapping them would be premature, since they no longer lived lives as BUs, but lived on as something different.
According to my findings, the remaining 95 Composites were scrapped in 4/1950. It was at this point when the trucks were transferred to the Qs since they were deemed to heavy to transverse the Manhattan El with it's BMT trucks.
Actually it was the other way around. If you look at photos of composites you'll see they had truss rods meaning a wood underframe [althought the BMT 1300's had them and they were part steel. The Q's as built even as BRT 1200's and 1400's had steel underframes. You'll notice they had no truss rods. And reading construction articles on them they indeed were steel framed. Then again I'm not sure the Composites were a happy piece of equipment; they'd been modified several times during their carreers. But then I know one person who rode them regularly and thought well of them.
Well, technically the 1200s' trucks were left under the cars.
The Q motor cars carried a pair of Hedley trucks (the so-called
"Composite" trucks which were really the 2nd-generation trucks
that the Composites received in 1915 for elevated use). Most
if not all of the Q motors were ex-1400s. The trailer cars were
ex-1200s and carried Peckham-40 trailer trucks, which were original
to the 1200s/1400s. The 1200s, 1300s and 1400s were built with
Peck 40 trail trucks and Peck 40 motor trucks on the 1200s and 1300s,
but AmLoc.Co motor trucks on the 1400s. The ALCo trucks that came
from the Q motors in 1950 went under the 1300s at that time, and
the 1300s' Peck 40 motor trucks wound up under some older equipment
such as the 600s where they replaced Brill 27 trucks.
The Composites and 1200,1300,1400 BUS were mechanically similar.
Both used a heavy steel underbody frame with some wooden
beams inside the steel beams, but the upper bodies were all-wood.
The 1300s, being convertibles, have metal siding and a truss rod.
Some of the 1200s did as well. It depended on who manufactured them.
To my knowledge the only 1200's that had truss rods were 1261 and 1282, which were older cars remodelled to replace genuine 1200's that were lost; likewise 1448 which survived WW2.
Just a thought from a 1907 Electric Rwy. Journal, and likely the reason the 1400's had different motor trucks: the 1400's had 400 HP compared to the older model's 300. If those trucks went under the 1300's no wonder they were nice and fast.
Pity they didn't put the right trucks under the Q's when they went back to the BMT. With the composite trucks AND trailers they never were quite lively enough, but I'm glad I had the chance to ride them and run them so late in the game.
Having known the Q's in 3 of their 4 appearances I'd have to say they looked their best when first put on Myrtle. Although they looked pretty sharp on 3rd Ave too. Never did care for the outbopard BMT markers but then they cut the clerestories down it was a desecration and ruined their looks. Besides being in a 3 car set having the middle car a trailer is totally inaccurate. The 1200's and 1400's were all motors. But have to be glad they're still around I guess.
In retrospect I think they should have left that 3-car set as-is,
as Qs, because in their 1969 condition they represented the last
wooden passenger cars in the US. The Qs only exist as 3 car units,
or to a lesser extent the 2 car QX units. Now we have no complete
Q sets preserved, but we have an inaccurate 3 car set of BQs and
numerous single cars taken from Q or QX sets. Of course what's
done is done but it probably would have been better to re-work one
of those single cars in the faux BU.
Thanks for the info, Stef.
BTW, that reminds me, the guys at the TA Museum really miss you. When do you plan to show your mug around there again?
Doug aka BMTman
Someday, I'll show my face. Give Mark Watson and company my best....
-Stef
Funny you should mention parents holding their kids by the hand.
There was an incident at the Transit Museum about four years ago which had to do with precisely that, or lack thereof. Consequently, all storm doors on all cars are now kept locked, which means you can't assume the position between 100 and 484, or 484 and 1575 anymore. I was soooooo bummed when I found out about that.
Thanks to all of you for your responses to this thread! As you know the original cars were my favorites.
Published pictures indicate that the Van Dorn couplers were used on the ends of three car sets of both the "C's" and the "Q's" while still in revenue service. Were Van Dorns used to couple the A, B & C units together or were they replaced by a link bar when they were rebuilt the first time?
The "C's" all had trailer cars as B units. Were the 1200's that were used as B units in the "Q" sets completely demotored when they became "Q's"?
Was the end-platform hardware (gates, etc) used on the three cars in the museum built from scratch during the re-rebuild, or was it appropriated from original gate cars that were beyond repair? My thinking is that the 1404, 1273 and 1407 were re-rebuilt a number of years after the last of the original remaining gate cars had been scrapped!
AFAIK the Q's still had Van Dorn's between cars of a unit. I can't answer that for the C's. They were a different animal with diaphragms of sorts between cars.
The C trailers were made from 1893 steam coaches; as for the Q's the B cars [trailers] were completely demotorized. Some of the Q motors were in fact ex-1200's. The C's used up 60 1400's; that left about 73 motor cars required for the Q-QX conversion.
Unfortunately I don't know the source of the gates for the Q-back to BU conversion.
I was surprised to see how many 1200's were used as end units in the conversion to "Q's".
There is a chart in " The Brooklyn Elevated" that shows what number became what in the conversion!
Did you realize that there were eight 1200's used for motor cars on the conversion to "C's"?
I'm also a proud owner of that crumbling but great book; that was where I [cheated] and learned that info from. Guess If I weren't too lazy I'd have gone back and looked it up in detail.
OK try this one Karl [or other readers]: what was the Barney Googles on the Brooklyn el? See joo manana, domani....tomorrow!
Barney Google rings a bell, but it has been too many years since I left.
I will be anxiously awaiting your post with the answer!
Did you note that the conversion back was from 1622A, 1622B & 1603C?
Why do you suppose they did not use 1622C? Was it because 1622C was in very bad shape or was it because 1622C was originally a 1200 and not a 1400?
I wonder if anyone knows the answer!
What?
This is the first time, I'm hearing about this....
-Stef
Stef,
"The Brooklyn Elevated" by James C, Greller & Edward B.Watson has car rosters on the last pages of the book.
1407 was 1622A
1273 was 1622B
1404 was 1603C
These three cars are noted in the rosters with the reference that they were re-built back to open platform cars
It is interesting to note that 1622A was apparently the last 1400 used in the Q car conversion. From 1622B through 1629C the cars used for conversion were all from the 1200 series.
THANK YOU!
-Stef
The first 2 C units 1500 and 1501 with the separated pair of doors in the center of the car rather than the usual C types with D type doors had the nickname Barney Google. This came from a BMT old timer I met. Don't believe they were around in the last years of Fulton.
As for why 1622 A and B were preserved but the C car replaced with 1603 probably structural or accident damage, or mechanical reason not worth fixing. I'm referring of course to the Q back to sort of BU at the museum. Glad they're around but as another poster said they would have been historically a lot more accurate saved as Q's.
08/22/2000
[Was the end-platform hardware (gates, etc) used on the three cars in the museum built from scratch during the re-rebuild, or was it appropriated from original gate cars that were beyond repair? ]
I was told the ironwork on the BU restoration was built as new, possibly from old drawings.
Bill "Newkirk"
That must have been quite an expense, to custom build six sets of end platform hardware.
I guess the restoring of the three cars to their original appearance was a very costly project. It is too bad that they did not restore the original clerestory roofs and move the marker lights back out where they belonged while they were at it.
Had they restored the original BRT/BMT Roof Configuration, we might have cars with no roofs and no marker lights, as the roofs are too high for numerous subway tunnels.
-Stef
Wasn't it because of the Composite trucks that the clerestories were lowered in the first place?
Right!
-Stef
I seem to remember that the lowering (and the fan installation) was done after the Q's went to Myrtle. Why it was done escapes me, but it sounds like a bone-headed idea that somebody got rewarded for.
I think there is a picture on the site showing the Q's in storage after 3 AV and the roof and markers are the way BU and God intended.
I thought the Qs were lowered when they were sent out to Myrtle
Avenue because in order to get to Coney Island shops they would
have to pass through a tunnel that no longer cleared them.
The Q's lacked clearance for the Montague Street Tunnel.
If you ran it by the old Nassau Loop Connection and over the Manny B, this would not have been a problem.
-Stef
Yeah, I think the problem was that after the reconstruction of
the Dekalb area and the elimination of the Myrtle Avenue stop
that the Qs could no longer clear when they came in to the portal.
After 3rd Ave. the rooves were high, and they still were when they first went to Myrtle. I have a few pictures showing it, one of them in "They Moved The Millions".
As for the markers they were moved inboard when they were put into 3rd Ave. service because they wouldn't clear the station rooves with BRT style markers. Personally I think they looked a lot better inboard. That was one BMT feature I found unattractive.
Pity about the rooves; they were a very handsome car before that was done.
Two of the gate cars are locked. Only one is open. All three used to be open but the rampant idiocy of some the general public dictated otherwise.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's a shame! Since heypaul's picture was of the interior of 1273, I guess that 1404 & 1407 (the end units) must be locked!
Tell me about it. I'm lucky to have had a picture taken when one could still assume the position on the IND cars.
It look like I'll be taking a trip to Branford with my wife and girls, maybe Thursday or Friday of this week. First time there in 20 years or so.
The kids like trolleys, thanks to the fact that my in-laws are in Philly. In fact, my older daughter and I had a trip on the 13 line to Darby and back on the 11 just a week ago (great line, the 13).
Is there anything special for kids at or near the museum that I might not have noticed in my pre-kid days?
It look like I'll be taking a trip to Branford with my wife and girls, maybe Thursday or Friday of this week. First time there in 20 years or so.
The kids like trolleys, thanks to the fact that my in-laws are in Philly. In fact, my older daughter and I had a trip on the 13 line to Darby and back on the 11 just a week ago (great line, the 13).
Is there anything special for kids at or near the museum that I might not have noticed in my pre-kid days?
If the general vicinity is good enough, there's the Peabody natural history museum in New Haven. It's a true gem, fascinating for both children and adults.
You also might consider a stop in the Norwalk maritime center on the way back.
Isn't it in South Norwalk? I know you get off the MetroNorth South Norwalk station and can walk to the aquirium.
I just had my 7yr old nephew at Shoreline this Saturday, while it was the "Working on The Railroad" special event where he saw the trolley sweeper and rotary plow do their thing he loves the "Station" or the small musuem exhibits the best for some reason.
There is a trolley controller he plays with and a demonstrtion on electricty and the trolley where you turn a wheel to move a small trolley. I can't get him away from them.
We also stopped at Rye Playland ammusment park on the way home, right off I95 if you NYC bound. $19 for 36 ticket book, rides are up to 5/6 tickets.
The other way Essex Steam train is not that much longer north (hour??).
Re: Norwalk Maritime Center
Isn't it in South Norwalk? I know you get off the MetroNorth South Norwalk station and can walk to the aquirium.
Yep, that's it. The center's no more than a few minutes walk from the station. In fact, the Metro North tracks run right through the center, just after going over the bridge.
The other way Essex Steam train is not that much longer north (hour??).
Probably even a bit less. I've never done the Essex trip (one of those things where something else's always come up), but I've heard it's really nice.
Also at Bridgeport is the Barnem & Bailey Circus Museum AND the kids will probally love the ferry ride from there to LI.
Also New Haven has a AAA baseball team who's playing this Fri & Sat (I'll be there !)
Mr t__:^)
As Doug aka BMTman gets ready to throw the switch and the Sarge looks on, Heypaul is led in a straight jacket to Florida's newest electric chair, ironically designed in the shape of an R-9 cab.
As Doug aka BMTman gets ready to throw the switch and the Sarge looks on, Heypaul is led in a straight jacket to Florida's newest electric chair, ironically designed in the shape of an R-9 cab.
Old Sparky has served the state of Florida very well for almost a century now (well, there were a few glitches the last couple of times, but we'll overlook them). I certainly don't think they want to change.
Okey Dokey, Bob!! How did you do it??
Inquiring SubTalkers want to know.
This photo was from the heypaul open house & SubTalk anniversity get to gather August 5th. There were a bakers dozen of us there.
Mr t__:^)
great shot of me... fortunately the intense electromagnetic field generated by my mind created a a back emf exactly equal to the electrocuting voltage, which i had exactly predicted used geometric logic and marvin's law of fluxes...
i must take exception to the title of this thread... i do not have spots...
Great shot, Bob!
That is a funny caption for the pic!
And you got my best side...;-)
I have to get my shots scanned and thrown up here, too.
(BTW, Bob, you're not off the hook -- I have you in a shot or two, so you've been warned...)
Doug aka BMTman
what line was on the FRONT of that shirt?
A as in Apple because he hasn't been able to get one with the Franklin Shuttle on it yet ;-)
[A as in Apple because he hasn't been able to get one with the Franklin Shuttle on it yet ;-)]
Thurston, just to set the record straight: I already have a Franklin Avenue Shuttle T-shirt. I just wanted to give it a rest and put some 'mileage' on the A-Line shirt.
As they say: variety is the spice of life!
Doug aka BMTman
Ah, but who's that in the cab?
Might be my 7 year old grandson ... he got there early and later was giving instructions (I have a shot of him teaching the BMT Man :-)
Mr t
Yes, he qualified me as a T/O on heypaul's R-9! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
But who was tha TSS/RCI (whatever they're calling them this week) that was seen there? I understand the R-9 had a ton of violations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, those pictures will be posted shortly.
The Road Car Inspector Clouseau was captured on film by yours truly!
Doug aka BMTman
hey guys... i am getting really tired of people saying that i have spots... i do see spots in front of my eyes, but i definitely do not have any age spots or leopard spots...
08/19/2000
Spotted this today when riding a #2 train leaving Times Square heading south to Penn Station. Local track closed (northbound) due to station rehab and in mid station there was beautiful sunlight cascading down from the street shining on the tiles. Not an earth shattering spectacle, but worth a look see anyway. Check it out before they seal it up!
Bill "Newkirk"
There also appears to be light peering through the tunnel ceiling at 142nd St Junction.
-Stef
Where is 142nd St Junction?
Sorry for not making this clear. 142nd Street Junction is where the tracks fron the Bronx (2) meet up with those coming from 148th Street (3) on Lenox Avenue.
-Stef
Thanx.
I have video of the construction of the southbound Lexington Ave local at 14th in 1997 when Union Square was all torn up. You could see the abandoned local side platform at 14th as well as one of those plaques with the "14" inside of the eagle (ala 33rd St). The outside tunnel wall was all boarded up - all concrete was removed. And from the street you could easily see the steelwork and framing of the first subway holding up Broadway at 14th Street. Very interesting indeed.
--Mark
Times Square IRT and BMT is being renovated. There will be a glass block sidewalk to allow light to filter in. There will aslso be an "observation area" in ther BMT mezzanine which they plan on calling "The Ellipse" which will allow view of N,R trains below.
How is the express service on the Broad St subway in Philly?
I heard that the trains go over 60. Also what stops do the express trains make? Does it run in miday. I can't make it to DC since I only have one day, so philly sounds good. Been there many times but never rode the Broad St line.
On the Subtalk Field Trip out Broad Ridge train hit 63 MPH! The BSL is a raceway: straight, level and few express stops. Express trains run from Fern Rock to Locust-Walnut every weekday. There are 16 local stops and 8 express stops. Between Spring garden and Fern Rock there are 3 express stops and 11 local stops. The Ridge trains run all week and on the weekend they provide the only express service b/t Fairmount and Fern Rock. Ridge Line trains also stop at North Phidelphia while normal express trains. Special trains that service events at the stadiums run express all the way to Pattison. The express stations are as follows:
Fern Rock
Olney
skip 3
Erie
skip 1
North Philly (Ridge line only)
skip 2
Girard
Fairmount (ridge line only)
Spring Garden
Race-Vine
City Hall
Walnut Locust (express trains end)
skip 5
Pattison (special trains only)
63 MPH? Now that's what I call Rapid Transit! For shame NYCT! They say that transit systems look at each other for ideas. How about it with our 30 to 35 MPH trains on flat track.
how about BART going 78 in the trans-bay tube
actually forget the trans-bay tube. BART going 75 in the median of the 580 freeway on the Dublin-Pleasanton (blue) line. You pass the cars, even the ones breaking the speed limit, even in the middle of the day with light traffic
WMATA comes damn close. Try riding the orange line out west - in the 66 median. You keep wondering why traffic is moving so slow. Then try driving on 66, breaking the limit by a good margin, and wondering why the trains move so damn fast! And it's the regular SUBWAY - not regional rail!! Good stuff...
Whenever I ride the Orange Line to Vienna (something I've done alot lately), the cars always go faster than us (or we stay even, we never pass most of them). A good run for speed where you will get at least 65 (won't last long though) is between Tenleytown-AU and Shady Grove on the red. Many sections of that stretch have a 75 MPH limit.
I've seen trains running between Fort Totten and West Hyattsville (in the underground portion) hit 66. One operator did the funicular portion of the Red Line (between Med.Ctr. and Grosvenor) with a max.speed of 71. Not too bad.
wayne
I'll bet you wish the slants could do that.:-)
In the 1970s, I thought when the TA was replacing the prewar R type cars with the R44 and R46 cars that we would become the rapid transit system we actually called ourselves. Here we are in the 21 century using cars designed for 80 MPH and barely doing half of that. In a world where decent cab signalling has been used for over 40 years, we are signing contracts for CBTC and have been toying with AC traction for a couple of years where NJT and even freight locomotives have been using this technology successfully. Where is all the money going?
Time to cue up Steve Allen's classic breakup as Big Bill Allen.
I've seen 70 on the express when I was there in 1998. It is a fun ride, but south of City Hall is a drag.
Not on a special train!
I haven't ever been in town when they were running special trains AND I was on the BSS (the second category comes in only twice and only once would there have been a game at the Sports Complex but there wasn't).
Make part of your trip the attendance of a Phillies game. I don't think they charge money any more. After the game runs out you run to the station (often times they suspend fare control for Eagles Games) and get on a Special trail.
Those trains are LOUD! If you concentrate on the noise during the express runs your ears will feel very odd.
something about the west hills tunnels on the MAX make the noise LOUD. the LRVs go 55 and geez do your ears hurt at the end
I noticed this also, especially on the low-floors. There is a notice in the joints on the low-floors attributing the noise to an as-yet unremedied problem that the manufacturer is allegedly exploring.
dude the problem isn't the cars...the low-floors are FINE out on street track or the exclusive ROW east of the river...it's in the tunnel that sucks so much. In addition to the noise there's also that high-pitched concrete whistling noise that you sometimes hear driving in your car over bridges on freeways - perhaps the inside of the tunnel is too smooth, if it was rougher it would dampen the noise...who knows...
I didn't notice the noise, but I was a little amused at the posted notice. Here in the wonderful world of SEPTA, transit riders get little notice of anything, but let a stray cat block a Regional Rail train and cause a 30-second delay, and the conductors are handing out apologies from the GM... I also didn't find the West Hills tunnel particularly noisy (again, I'm from Phila, so I'm used to it?), but I thought it strange that the talking announcement tries to be heard over the noise when calling out the tunnel and Washington Park station.
Yep. Definitely one of the loudest trains I've been on. Part of it is the speed, but lack of sound insulation is big, too.
The MFL trains, which run almost as fast, were just as loud with the old M-3 almond joys. With new M-4s, the same runs at the same speeds are much quieter. A little sound insulation goes a long way.
You think the B4's are loud, you should have been on the Brills and Pressed Steels on an express run. Traction motor and gear noise par excellance plus the roar echoing off the tunnel walls and boosting the concert from the cars, wheels and rail.
LOUD!! You could not hold a conversation, but if you love real classic subway cars at 55 plus, nervanna!!
I remember the old car's sound exactly, but I will not try to spell it out with words and grunts! They made a special sound on the part from LOGAN station to OLNEY Av. It was a droning, whining sound so you always you were coming to the last stop on the line! (This was before the Fern Rock station opened , of course!)
Chuck Greene
The northbound between Logan and Olney is a fairly stiff upgrade and the old cars would noticably groan more than normal on this stretch. Consequently the southbounds were very quiet as they would take advantage of gravity and coast most of the way.
Before the express tracks were installed in this area (when the exp's used the local track and 'slowed' at the stations), I recall seeing a speedometer hit 68 on a southbound exp. As noted, though, it was noisy. I like the B-4's but I would like three things to change when they are overhauled (assuming this will happen): more sound insulation (the M-4's are by comparison noiseless), better PA's, and replaced signs (those 9 and 12 panel signs are way too small - electronic type signs would be much better, and I'm no big fan of the dot types!).
Track speed on the Broad St. Express tracks from Olney to Race-Vine was increased to 70 mph with the opening of the center express tracks between Olney and Erie about 10 years ago. The local tracks are 55 mph.
From my observations during extensive braking tests I conducted on half the fleet in 1995 with LTK Engineering, an experienced operator will be able to time the signals right and actually get up to 70 mph. A less experienced one will be forced to keep the train at about 66 mph by the signals.
It certainly does put to shame the New York City subways, especially the long express stretches such as 168th to 14th St. on the 8th Ave. IND, Queens Blvd., 34th to West 4th on the 6th Ave. IND, the Fulton, Brighton and 4th Ave. Expresses in Brooklyn, and the straigtaways on the Lexington Ave. Express in Manhattan.
Andrew Byler
Does anybody out there think that NYCT will ever bring back some good speed to there subway trains? I have always noticed that the Philly trains were much faster but then I thought it was just my imagination. Then i saw all these posts about the speed of trains. It is a shame because NY whether people will admit it or not in my opinion has to be the King of the subway hill.
Aww, you New Yorkers are the king of everything. Let the rest of the world have something:)
Hey I am all for that. But I am actually from the Philly area where our trains do move. But in all fairness when you think of subways you have to say NEW YORK! I just wish they could be a little faster.
It's not necessarily the trains themselves that generate too much noise, it also has to do with whether the tunnel walls are smooth or baffled (arched concrete between each I-beam). I've noticed when the train goes South of Snyder, it's less noisy. It's more noisy north of Snyder. Same thing on the MFL (and that was with The Almond Joys). It's less noisy East of 22nd Street, and more noisy West of 22nd (that is also a reason why cast concrete is today's preferred method of construction over concrete-and-I-beam.
For some reason I find those newer 63st tunnels louder than the older tunnels everywhere else, and that's cast concrete.
You have a point here, but I recall the old Broad St cars on the new section south of Snyder, where the sound was deafening especially when the reverberation of the sound against the center column and center space arrangement kicked in.
I thought some of you would like to see some of the faces behind
"Transit and Weather Together" on WCBS Newsradio-88. These were
taken on 8/10/00 at a going away party for one of the station
managers.
Yours truly with John Cameron Swayze, Jr.
Morning anchor Pat Carroll, Reporter Rich Lamb, Afternoon Anchor Wayne Cabot, and Morning Anchor Jeff Caplan
Chief Meteorologist Craig Allen and (recently retired) Chopper Pilot/Reporter Neal Busch
And that, pictorally, is...
Thanks Todd, good to see the faces behind the voices. Or shall I say the voices behind the faces?
Was Jeff Caplan "seperated at birth" from recently retired morning DJ Charles Laquidera from WZLX in Boston....they look so much alike! -Nick
Cool tie Todd! Where'd ya get it??- a Fellow weather Buff......
The tie is from "Windy City Weather" in Chicago. A friend quit the weather business, and now sells weather-related merchandise.
Kinda like our friend Bill Newkirk, who took his avocation and made it his vocation!
It's certainly en-LIGHT-ning, that's for sure.:-)
Todd,
Thanks for sharing.....I had the pleasure of meeting you at the July ERA meeting!
Tony
People on radio seldom look like you'd expect.
That's why we're not on TV ;-)
Actually Todd, that is not 100% correct. Craig Allen has done the weather on Channel 2 (I think he still does).
As a loyal WCBS AM (and FM) listener I thank you for the peek behind the mike.
Of course you are correct. Craig has done WCBS-TV for many years; previously also the CBS Morning News. He got his TV start on News 12 Westchester in believe. He has been on WCBS radio since 1981 (though I've been on since 1979!).
AND NOW TO BRING THIS ON-TOPIC...
Criag is also a railfan!
So that makes you, Craig Allen, Tom Kaminsky and (didn't you once say) Wayne Cabot, too?
--Mark
Yes, Mark, all correct. Also former Shadow traffic reporter Ray Rossi. He cracked me up one Saturday morning a few years ago, when he told me on-air "...it will be a great day to ride a Slant-40 over the Manhattan Bridge!" (That's when the B's used Slants.) I replied I would be at the STORMFAN WINDOW!
I was listening to the traffic reports all weekend. Never caught his name, but the traffic guy on Sunday afternoon (I just got a brand new car :):):)), when changing between traffic in the city and in Jersey, kept saying "...And on the other side of the tracks..." in reference to the Hudson River.
-Hank
Not to mention Tod Ant (former backup Chopper pilot for WCBS) - OK so I mentioned it.
Huh? Todd Ant was one of our sports reporters. He now works for ABC.
Former backup Chopper reporters include Tom Salat and Lou Timolat.
That's right. I am getting my WCBSers mixed up.
Thanks, Todd
Dear Todd,
How nice to see your name on the site! I am a fellow AFTRAN who
would love to chat with you about my New York City Subway LINE.
Have you seen it at the Transit Museum?
LL
I see the missing Jay Street tiles Heypaul took a while back in that photo with Mr Busch. Did he take the retired pilot's helicopter cab to a landing pad in Sheepshead Bay?
The scene is Ben Benson's restaurant, 52nd & 6th Ave., 2nd floor
conference room.
No pictures of Therese Crowley? For shame!!!
Yo, Train Dude! Therese Crowley hasn't been on WCBS radio for two+ years. Susan Kennedy now does the middays (and Cameron Swayze filled in too). I don't know if Therese is doing radio these days; she also has a singing career.
Todd, if not Therese, who was the tall blond I met the last time I was there? I don't think it's been 2 years since I was there
Hmmmm... it was probably Therese. Maybe 1-1/2 years ago???
Back on topic... I was listening (from here in Boston) to WCBS last week, and heard the (contract Shadow Traffic) traffic reporter say:
"Q trains are suspended between 21st Queensbridge and 57th Street. SHUTTLE BUSES are provided." I called them up and corrected them -- it's SHUTTLE TRAINS! Wouldn't that be a conga line... reminiscent of the Manny-B shutdown!
No Todd, you were actually more accurate than I was. That was August 10 of 1998. That was the date on which after I got back from WCBS, I found out that I was being moved to Jamaica Shop. Of course a year later, right back to Concourse.
With all these famous people attending this party, did the rationale for identifying WCBS now as Newsradio 880 instead of Newsradio 88 come up? WCBS-AM has been Newsradio 88 for so long (at least since I've been a listener and that goes back to 1976) that even the on-air talent is still struggling with it.
"Let's go to Chopper 880 and Tom Kaminsky" just doesn't flow "right" .....
Did they hire the same consultant that advised the TA to get rid of their two-tone "M" logo and adapt the current "Pacman" logo and public name of "NYC Transit"?? :)
--Mark
The 880 thing was announced after the party. As far as I can tell, it was memo'ed to the staff the day it was to change (last Friday). That's the way it works in the media biz... We on-air staff are not consulted about those things, nor privvy to the "whys and hows."
There was a rather heated discussion of this change on the New York Radio Message Board at:
http://www.musicradio77.com/wwwboard a few days ago.
And NO, I'm not going to change my email address! I'm the advisor to the MIT radio station, WMBR, which is at 88.1 FM. So "radio88" has to apply to both my AM and FM affiliations.
I'm wondering when either WCBS-AM or WINS will be shut dow or have the format changed. Infinity now owns them both. I just wish the traffic reports were a little more skewed. 1010 does them on the 1's, and 880 on the 8's. That's 3 and 7 minutes apart. Whay can't they set it up for every 5 on the alternating stations...AGGGGHHH!!!!
-Hank
WCBS and WINS will remain as competitive, but co-owned stations... each makes gobs of money for Infinity/CBS/Viacom. Think of it in terms of Chevrolet/Pontiac/Cadillac/Saturn/Oldsmobile/GMC Truck competing against each other for various markets, but all of the profits going to GM.
And while each station has its own traffic/transit "reporters," they all come from Shadow/Metro Traffic (competing, but co-owned by -- you guessed it -- Westwood One, syndicated by Viacom!). That's why a wrong subway report on one station is likely to be repeated on the other! The main difference is that we at WCBS have our exclusive eyes-in-the-sky, with Tom Kaminski in Chopper-88 (YES! HE'S A SUBWAY FAN TOO!)
err, that's Chopper 880, Todd :) :) :)
--Mark
I just wish the traffic reports were a little more skewed. 1010 does them on the 1's, and 880 on the 8's. That's 3 and 7 minutes apart. Whay can't they set it up for every 5 on the alternating stations
No! Don't do that!!
I LIKE the traffic reports skewed. They are not always the same; for instance, WCBS might focus on the East Side crossings during one report, WINS might have its report focus in Brooklyn and then WBBR might focus on Long Island. In less than 10 minutes, I can get a comprehensive traffic picture by going to WINS on the 1's, WBBR (Bloomberg 1130) on the 5's and WCBS on the 8's. Makes traveling to the Jersey Shore in the summer much easier - I can usually plan an alternate well before I hit the traffic jam.
As an owner of a new car, you'll come to appreciate this very quickly :)
--Mark
It seems that whenever I want to hear Jersey traffic, I get LI, and vice-versa. I didn't mean that both stations should have the same report, I meant that instead of the gaps being 3 and 7 between them, they should be 5. I have some kind of new radio in the car equipped with 'RDS' Supposedly, it'll interrupt whatever I'm listening to to brodcast a traffic report. Hasn't happened yet, and it only works with the FM stations that have RDS equipment, like WSIA and WMXV.
And I can't stand WBBR. No talent, just a tape deck.
-Hank
I only listen to WBBR for traffic updates in the 5s. They're supposed to do more live stuff pretty soon (saw that also on the NY Radio Message Board).
WMXV? Mix-105 became Jammin Oldies 105.1 and changed their call letters to WJJV or something kike that ... where's WMXV coming out of now?
--Mark
I remember when WJRZ became WWDJ. 970 AM, IIRC.
Back in my childhood and early teens WAAT was 970 AM. I remember them playing country and western then, and on weekday evenings in 1956 I used to listen to a black rhythm and blues/ blues disk jockey named Ramon Bruce. Anybody else remember him? I-I-I-I-I am the Bruce.
Eye for one like them 3 minutes apart. That way I can do 880, 1010, then back to my music station (opps hope the suits aren't listening or they'll discover I'm NOT listening to the commercials on either of the AM stations)
Mr t__:^)
F... those radio and T.V. spots. We live in a world saturated with advertizing. Thank you David for making this an oasis of tranquility without any adds.
Marty.
KOA in Denver gives traffic updates every ten minutes during rush hours. It helps me plan my trip home from work, especially if there's a traffic jam ahead.
Where, o where, can I get that TIE???
-HAnk :)
NEW YORK (AP) - A man going to obtain a marriage license Friday morning died when he apparently fainted, fell onto subway tracks and hit the electrified third rail.
Peter Seligman began to feel dizzy on a crowded train and decided to stand with his fiancee on the small platform between cars to get some air, police said. He fell onto the tracks as the train pulled into a station.
Seligman, 30, and Sarah Sinek were to be married Sept. 3.
The Manhattan couple met when both worked at Dan Klores & Associates, one of the top 20 independent public relations firms in the country. Seligman was a partner at the firm and had worked there eight years. He managed accounts for talk show host Jay Leno and a number of sports accounts.
``He was very, very hardworking - he was deeply committed to his clients,'' Klores said. ``He recognized that he was growing, and that made him better. He was very loyal to the people who worked for him.''
I guess you missed the entire thread on this subject!
You mean somebody already beat me to it? Damn him/her! :)
i just read that in the paper this morning. something tells me SHE didn't want to marry him and was responsible
My feelings exactly.
If you know something the rest of us don't, you should speak to the police.
Otherwise, can the HS.
Which stations between Spring Garden and Frankford Terminal have a crossover that lets you switch platforms while staying in the fare control area?
Look at the Line-by-line.
I will be going by the name of Salvatore X Dagostino since I'm being mistaken for other Mikes in this forum.
Forget it!
Well, I've been waiting patiently for 3 1/2 years now, and the day had finally come! I picked up the 5:23 R142 at 149th street. The schedule said it was going downtown, but it actually went uptown instead...but not a problem :) Even with Bombardier being the manufacturer, I was still impressed. The combination of bright lights and white walls really makes a difference. I was also really impressed with the smoothness of the train, and the propulsion....especially on the elevated sections....usually the redbirds crawl then, but the R142 was hauling A$$!!! Going downtown, I had a nice chat with an employee was came on for a joyride, and we talked about the different featurs of the train, which of course have been posted on here. He said that most people were happy with the new train, even though the Kawasaki model was better. He even told me that when they need somebody to do an extra run on a redbird, everyone declines...but an extra run on the R142....and five people are fighting over the job :) The announcements were good...except of course the low volume, and hearing "stand clear of the closing doors" every two minutes in a really annoying voice. Perhaps they should have a bunch of voices (here is your chance, Todd!) do that announcement, and rotate them....especially for local stops. The best announcement was for Times Square: (female voice) "This is Times Square-42nd Street." (male voice) "Connect here for the 1,3,7,A,C,E,N, and R train. Connect here for the shuttle to Grand Central. Connect here for the Port Authority bus terminal." All in all, not a bad ride.
I also caught the 8:51 R142A at Grand Central....right on time, and going in the right direction....the schedule made waiting very limited! I could certainly see that the interor of this train was put together a bit better, as Kawasaki focused a bit more on the design. I noticed that the white "plastic" walls were mounted in better, and I think the doors were wider than the R142. The artwork with the R142 was a nice bonus too. Also, on both trains, the strips that light up each station stop were very helpful....hopefully not only to regular riders, but to tourists as well.
I'm glad this day really lived up to its potential. Stay tuned, in a couple more years I'll post my reaction to the R143....as well as new Orange and Blue Line cars up in Boston. -Nick
I work off info posted on SubTalk to make and update the schedule. Could FDNY or Pelham Bay Dave tell me of any changes. I hope to have an e-mail address for my web site traffic up soon (my e-mail is restricted) when I upload my web site. All the scanning is done for the site. It will have 287 images of which 163 are from the DC area and 69 are from New York City.
The only change is you have to put back the 6AM Pelham and the 7:05AM out of Brooklyn Bridge.
I know there was a Mix up on that before they started running the train.
Thank you very much!
Nick:
From your description of the R-142 and the R-142A subway cars on the IRT I can't wait to get a chance to ride them. Finally the New York City subway system will have a fleet off very nice subway cars. I won't miss the old redbirds.
BMTJeff
okay so if the chat room has it's own address, why not the message boards themselves? They'd still be a part of nycsubway.org...also can anyone make it into a live chat at 7:45 eastern (4:45 pacific) next monday?
Because if you read the disclaimer below the link, you'd know that SubTalk Live and NYCSubway.org are not run by the same person/people.
The operator of the chat room does not run the nycsubway.org domain and has to keep all of the chat pages on separate servers.
As for chat times, since the room is open 24/7 now, you can organize your own chat by announcing it, which you have already done. Just remember to post a reminder to the board just before it starts.
THERE WILL BE A CHAT IN THE SUBTALK LIVE CHAT ROOM AT 7:45 EASTERN (4:45 PACIFIC).
now the reply to pigs...
i realize that subtalk live is not affiliated. what i mean is why can't pirmann put in a new address for subtalk so we don't have to click through the website or type in nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi. I personally have my own start page on iexplore that it automatically goes to,
www.angelfire.com/wa/abeybaby/elvisisdead.html
that also links to subtalk. But what about the other people? Anyway to end thsi message
7:45 ET IN THE SUBTALK LIVE ROOM!
There's a direct link to SubTalk from the main www.nycsubway.org page. And most internet providers require that all CGI scripts (such as SubTalk) be located in a subdirectory named "cgi-bin". SubTalk's URL is already about as short as it can possibly be.
Or you could just bookmark it and never have to worry about typing the URL again. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
Well, if it makes things easier, I'll place a hunge link at TransiTALK for the SubTalk Live Chat Room!
Trevor
www.transitalk.com
If you bookmark SubTalk, just make sure you don't forget that the rest of Dave's nycsubway.org site exists! It's always got something new.
If you want, you can make one at cjb.net or namezero.com. You don't need to be the webmaster.
yes i already use cjb.net for my redhead website, lakewoodhrc.cjb.net (no transit related stuff there, no sense in going to it)
So, uh, what you're saying is that instead of a nice URL like:
www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi
You'd prefer a more memorable url like:
www.angelfire.com/wa/sabeybaby/elvisisdead/somerandomurl/foo/blah/html
?
What are you smoking? Use your bookmarks if you can't remember the URL.
-Dave
okay Dave, you obviously didn't LOOK at that page because all it is is a personal start page for my home computer. So it doesn't matter how long the URL is, since Internet Explorer is set to load up to it. I could bookmark Subtalk, why not. But since I have a link on my personal page, one click and I'm here. A separate Subtalk address wouldn't benefit me. However one of things about bookmarking is most peoples' favorites is so full of bookmarked stuff it takes forever to find the bookmark for what you wanted in the first place. In my particular case I have a little 13-year old bastard called my brother who clears everything out of the favorites except links to sites for Tiberian Sun (his favorite computer game) and Natalie Portman fansites. Which is why I created the /wa/abeybaby/elvis/blah/foo/wahtever as you so put it, he can't get rid of it since he doesn't know HTML and once he changed the start page to westwood.com (maker of TS) but that page was so slow loading that he realized he should leave WELL ENOUGH ALONE.
For websites that actually get traffic other than myself, such as my redhead website which gets >100 hits a day (a lot for a punk 17 year old on Angelfire freepages, but not for D.P.) I have cjb.net redirects, in this case lakewoodhrc.cjb.net, or the now-defunct lakewoodlrt.cjb.net which once led to my advocacy page for a Tacoma-area light rail system. I am fully capable of short addresses. I had the makings of a forum website for new transit ideas but the free trail on my image editor expired and I don't have the 100 bucks to get PSP or photoshop. So it is stuck now with only the Tacoma Light Rail with a text description and the Nostrand Ave. LRT with a map or two. When that is finished that'll have a cjb.net redirect as well. So while I may make the occasional mistake about some piece of subway knowledge because I don't live in new york, I am not dumb, I have brown hair so please don't treat me as if I am dumb or else I will be forced to take a Greyhound all the way to florida...
i guess the reward for reading through my friend from the state of washington's thorough explanation of why he uses long link addresses was to read:
"I have brown hair so please don't treat me as if I am dumb or else I will be forced to take a Greyhound all the way to florida..."
i sense that my intelligence is being attacked by someone who doesn't understand why i travel greyhound in a world bent on speed and comfort...
i travel greyhound for 3 reasons, none of which will be of interest to anyone here... however, that will not stop me in my relentless pursuit to make a public mockery of my life...
reason #1: i am afraid of throwing an anxiety attack in an airplane, and having 300 or 400 people mocking me... after 40+ years of psychotherapy, i trace this to a bad experience i had when i entered ps 254 in brooklyn... i had skipped kindergarten, because at age 4, i still had not been fully toilet trained... this compounded by a deep fear that.............
reason #2: stronger than my interest in subways and buses is an interest i've had in the operations of greyhound bus lines... so as anxious as i may get about spending 26 hours riding a bus with other people, i feel at home on the bus, especially if i am riding in the front seat and able to set up my inflatable steering wheel on the front partition... this way i am able to be an assistant bus driver, and also able to make ugly faces at passing motorists...
reason #3: being a cheapskate, where else can you travel for close to 30 hours like my trip down last wednesday for about $55?... less than 2 dollars an hour bought me a golden opportunity to watch i-95 roll past my very eyes....
so my response to my young friend's remarks is to turn to the side, and cross my arms at the waist, put my right hand to my mouth and say: "well...."
[reason #3: being a cheapskate, where else can you travel for close to 30 hours like my trip down last wednesday for about $55?... less than 2 dollars an hour bought me a golden opportunity to watch i-95 roll past my very eyes.... ]
heypaul, this one I can vouch for...
BTW, when are you due back to our fair metropolis? Any chance you could give us an advance warning to evacuate as many sane people as possible before your return?
Thanks,
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
Don't dare tell heypaul what was said about the R-9 cab and Niagara Falls!
Karl, mums the word!
My lips are sealed! (However, bribery has not yet been ruled out).
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Oh,Oh! I think I am in trouble now!
"Any chance you could give us an advance warning to evacuate as many sane people as possible before your return?"
dougie... i probably will be leaving here over the weekend, and i appreciate your concern for the well being of the sane people who might be affected by my return to new york... i have made announcements on other message boards that i frequent, but there is hardly anyone here on subtalk who falls into the at risk population of the sane...
Sounds like laziness to me. I don't have any problem keeping hundreds of bookmarks neatly organized. But, try "subtalk.nycsubway.org" (and "bustalk.nycsubway.org") I think that will do what you want.
-Dave
Well, I find it easier to memorize stuff, simply because I use more than one machine. What do you do if you go to someone's house, and you want to show off your web page?
-Hank
Use something like a Yahoo! start page.
My start page is on my hard drive and in my web site. With a 28.8 modem, I can't waste time going to my site (25 seconds) when I could simply keep it at home and take 3 seconds. If I'm at school with a T1 connection I'll use the one on my site.
I don't have a start page, it's a blank page. I keep my favorites (and there are certainly plenty) organized in folders.
I would like to know if anybody would be kind to show the photos
of both R-142/142A so,that i could see the difference between the two
trains,unfortunately i can't go to NYC anytime soon,i know that i am
missing alot of subway faning, so you guys enjoy as much as you can.
I appreciate the help to anyone that post the photos.
R-29
Bet your bippy there are differences. Kind of like certain subtle differences between the R62 and the R62A. Namely, that the wiring on the Kawasaki R62’s was more organized and neat than their Bombardier R62A counterparts. And the welding positions on the exteriors of the Westinghouse-Amrail R68’s being different from those of the Kawasaki R68A’s.
Alas, I have as of this time only been on the R142A.
Right now our nice new R142A is now on Day 2 as of 8/20/00. The clock was set back to day 1 on Saturday do to a computer problem on Friday on the last trip of the day. The Computer indicated the train only had 5 cars they checked to see if there was a pull apart but it was a false reading but the train had to be taken out of Service. This happened at 3 Ave-E 138 St.
Might take a long time to get to 30 days.
I have been away for a while, (To NYC, would you believe), how many days had you gotten up to.
Elias
I believe the highest Kawasaki got to was 16 days (rough estimate).
What date was the original day 1, and how many times has the clock been reset now? How does this compare with previous experience?
Original day 1 was Monday, July 10th. Can't answer for sure the other 2.
So they have lost only 6 weeks. So far. Not too bad, considering. Yet.
Oh, I was on that train when it left the bridge. It was having
announcement and sign problems (pulling into Bleecker it announced
Burke as the next stop :) and when I pointed that out to a fellow
rider a Kawasaki engineer apologized profusely as he was scurrying
from car to car to check things out.
A couple of weeks ago, I spotted the R142 cars on the 2 line. It was a southbound train, but the exterior signs said:
2 TO WAKEFIELD-241 ST
(The signs on the interior correctly indicated a southbound 2 train.)
I got a nice picture of the train in this state at the Borough Hall stop.
Also, sometime between Newkirk and Flatbush Avenues, the signs reset and indicated it was a northbound train, and the strip maps indicated a skipped stop at Clark St, and some stops in the Bronx. By the time it arrived at Flatbush, it was the only train in the station, and there was no last stop announcement when the doors opened. Stranger yet, when the train started going north, there was no announcement for Newkirk Avenue. The doors opened and there was no announcement, except for "Stand clear of the closing doors, please." Then came the announcement that this was a Manhattan-bound 2 train, and the next stop is Beverly Road, then "Stand... doors." It then proceeded normally.
And another strange thing, sometimes the female voice announces the transfers. For example at Franklin Avenue:
F: This is Franklin Avenue.
F: Transfer is available to the 3 and 4 trains.
M: Transfer is available to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
A similar announcement is made at Nevins.
The female announces the transfer for stops where the transfer is ONLY for a parallel line (like the 3 at 135, 1/9, 4/5 at Nevins/Franklin). The shuttles are considered separately. If the 9 isn't running, the male announces those transfers. If there is a transfer to things other than the parallel line (like 14st, times sq, etc). For some odd reason, the transfer to the 3 is not announced at Franklin.
Clark st is supposed to be skipped, isn't it? If the work is already done, then the T/O or C/R must have forgotten and removed it. The stops from 180th to Gun Hill, and Gun Hill to 241 were skipped due to track work.
I observed this before Clark St. re-opened. I think it was somewhere around August 9th.
What is the PATCO Web Site URL? I know it exists, but the only way I can get to it it thru KYW's web site.
Its http://www.drpa.org/patco/index.html
Yes, believe it or not the DRPA is a .org, just like nycsubway.org. If it were up to me the domain would be drpa.rip
What a convienent place! Only 0 people will ever guess that URL!
Thanks.
Well, most ppl in the delaware valley know that PATCO is run by the DRPA and www.drpa.org has a big link to the PATCO page.
Thank you guys for finally saying something to Adam about Chicago not being that bad of a place.
He is trying to make it seem so bad, when really it isn't any worse then NYC or any other major city.
If you guys want to see how popular Chi-Town is really becomming, pick up an issue of today's (8-20-00) Sunday Chicago Tribune. Read the article in the Tribune Magazine on how much a problem parking is becomming with the cities new found re-birth.
The only thing bad about that article is that it talks about CTA Ridership going down in the early 90's which is true. However in the last 2 years or so it has consecutively and in great numbers gone up. Like 7 million more people in the first quarter of 2000 then 1999. And 1999 was also up over 1998.
He is correct about 55th St. being Garfield Park, but it still isn't a lot better then Englewood anyway.
Anyway, lets start talking about transit again, like we are suppost to. I thought David Pirman would have erased all of these housing posts anyway, they are not transit related!
BJ
I've heard of this project proposed to connect Broad Street on the M&E, Penn Station, the new sports complex, the Airport and Elizabeth. I've also heard of proposals to extend the Newark Subway to Paterson.
Anybody have more information or links about this and other rail projects in North Jersey?
Anybody know the route and stations of the Trenton Camden railbus?
There have been proposals for a few years to connect Elizabeth through Newark Airport to Newark. There also is one which is supposed to be a serious proposal to run a line from Plainfield on the CNJ ROW to Elizabethport to connect with a ferry to Manhattan. The rail line would then turn north to the Jersey Garden Mall, Ikea/Toys Are Us, and the airport.
they need to connect the Hudson-Bergen with the Newark Subway, that'd boost ridership on both
Well. That's pretty unlikely since they don't plan to get anywhere near each other. I was thinking it would be interesting to have the HBLR West Side Ave. branch come down to street level and use US 1 Truck's bridge over to Raymond Boulevard. I doubt they'd even try to co-mingle US 1 highway traffic with the rail traffic though. They'd really need to build a parallel bridge which I can guarantee you isn't ever going to happen. Of course they could rebuild the old CNJ Newark branch bridge and tie it back to the CNJ line that is now the HBLR!
On the other hand, they could possibly extend the line from the middle of the Bayonne branch over the existing Conrail bridge into and thru Oak Island. (This bridge was formerly electrified and still has the catenary supports!) It would be a long stretch of track with no points of interest before you got to the Airport or the southern end of Newark. It wouldn't make sense to think about rebuilding the Bayonne-Elizabethport CNJ bridge given the shipping traffic in Newark Bay.
I suppose it should be considered tying the Newark-Elizabeth line and the HBLR line and the Newark subway into one unified system but getting across Newark Bay is the hard part.
-Dave
Actually, according to road maps of Newark, there is or was a frieght line through Ironbound and going to Port Kearny. The map indicates four stations -
Ferry St.
East Ferry St.
Doremus Ave
Port Kearny
This line could be rebuilt for LRV use and a bridge could be contructed to extend it past Port Kearny to connect it with the West Side Avenue branch of the HBLR.
Extending the Newark Subway to Paterson is awkward. A better extension would be along an existing ROW through the Oranges.
A better Newark-Paterson line would be through downtown Newark and then along an existing ROW along the west bank of the Passaic River, through Belleville, Nutley, Clifton, Passaic, and Paterson.
The lines could be named as follows:
Hudson-Essex LRT (formerly Newark Subway)
Essex-Union LRT (Newark-Elizabeth line)
Essex-Passaic LRT (Newark-Paterson line)
Hudson-Bergen LRT
Imagine that.
(That's about all you could do, cause it ain't never gonna happen).
otherwise a tunnel would work too. Connecting all of these LRTs to New York by some means other then Ferrys and Path trains would be nice, like perhaps a new tunnel under the hudson connection to the HB (as long as we're dreaming here)
That line through Newark was the CNJ line from Broad Street to Jersey City. The ROW is practically all gone although as Dave pointed out the Jersey City portion has evolved into the HBLR. Looking out from the West Side Ave. station towards Newark it feels as if the line is crying out to be extended in that direction. I expect the Bayonne line, once finished, will appear to be an easy extension over the Bayonne Bridge to connect with the new North Shore Line. Don't hold you breath. I'll be happy if the Union County Line 1.) gets built and 2.) is at least compatible with the HBLR just in case they invent rail cars that can jump over Newark Bay. And, besides (in the case of connecting the HBLR into Newark) there already is a rail line between JC and Newark--PATH. And the H & M was one of the reasons the CNJ Newark Branch wasn't profitable.
And, besides (in the case of connecting the HBLR into Newark) there already is a rail line between JC and Newark--PATH. And the H & M was one of the reasons the CNJ Newark Branch wasn't profitable.
Maybe with the increased population density and traffic today there would be enough business to support both lines.
not to mention that if the lrvs were cleaned every night like in Portland, many would switch to the Light Rail just to avoid the godawful path cars
Umm, interior wise the path cars are almost always clean (except rush hour, with the usual litter of papers the rush attracts). Exterior, well the older cars need a little care but the PA4s are fine.
It seems to me that I remember seeing a car washing machine on one of the tracks at the 33rd Street station years ago.
I know it is not there now.
Anyone remember when it was removed? (Or have I just imagined it?)
People in Denver have done just that. Trains on the new Southwest Corridor are jammed to crush loading capacity during rush hours, and RTD has had to put every single LRV they have in service to keep up with demand. And even that's not enough. Six more cars have been ordered, but they're earmarked for the Central Platte Valley Spur when it opens. Right now, there isn't enough money for more cars, which cost $2 million each, and take roughly two years to build. You could almost say the new line has been too successful.
...an existing ROW along the west bank of the Passaic River, through Belleville, Nutley, Clifton, Passaic, and Paterson...
My uncle lives about half a mile from that ROW in Nutley, my father one town over, they both drive over the crossings at least 4 times a day and have never seen a train (and they've lived there for at least 20 years). Unfortunately, the ROW is only one track (including bridges over creeks and roads). And, one time the crossing lights flashed and bells rang (no train ever came), so they're still hooked up to power, indictating possibly monthly or annual use.
The Newark Cars, future Newark-Elizabeth cars and the HBLR cars are all compatible, presumably to allow the resurrection of a unified service ala Public Service of New Jersey.
It would certainly make sense to do something like run the West Side Ave branch to Newark, or the Bayonne Branch to Elizabeth. Whether the money is there remains to be seen.
Andrew Byler
08/22/2000
[It would certainly make sense to do something like run the West Side Ave branch to Newark, or the Bayonne Branch to Elizabeth. Whether the money is there remains to be seen.]
Yes that West Side branch looks like there should be something more to it. I doubt that millions would be spent to resurrect that abandoned ROW for light rail use only to have a couple of stations.
Bill "Newkirk"
The continuation of the ROW on the West Side branch is burried under the new parking lot. If you walk over to the street on the west edge of the lot you can see a short stretch of rail peaking out from under the pavement. I'm not sure, but I believe that the old ROW is blocked from this point to the river by an industrial bldg.
As for going through the Ironbound section of Newark, I suspect that the entire ROW was on an elevated structure until it passed over the NEC tracks next to Penn Station. AFAIK, nothing remains of the elevated structure except the bridge over the NEC. Can anyone confirm that it was all elevated from the river to the NEC and if anything else remains?
It was all elevated and I believe it is all gone.
The existing West Side Avenue station does not look like it was designed for future extensions. The stairways, fences, pedestrian bridge and other features, as now built, block extension of the tracks. (Compare this to the 34th Street station in Bayonne, which was obviously designed to only be an interim terminal.)
You're right about the "as built" appearance at West Side Avenue. On the other hand, I have seen at least one map of the project "complete" system that anticipated an extension from West Side Avenue running a bit further west and then curving to the north. I guess we'll all have to "stay tuned" for further developments.
Yes, there had been plans for a "Route 440" station with a park and ride. But West Side Avenue already has a large parking lot that that is nowhere near capacity. The only reason to extend the line now would be to serve the Hudson Mall on the far side of 440.
And while they're at it, why not connect the line to the PATH, thus providing direct subway service to EWR.
Say, I just saw an photo on Ebay showing TROLLEY CAR TRACKS in front of EBBETS FIELD. I never saw them, nor did I know that there were tracks under the street there. So, when was the last time trolleys went EBBETS FIELD (from the Prospect Park Station? or where from the west?) When were those tracks covered or removed?
See Ebay Item #413126973
What do you think the Dodgers dodged?
"Dodgers" is actually a shortened version of "Trolly Dodgers", the unofficial name of the Brooklyn Superbas. They got it from all the trollies fans had to "dodge" trying to get into the ballpark, which incidently was NOT Ebbet's field. The name Dodgers was already in existance when Ebbets Field opened in 1914.
Some corrections:
Ebbets field actually opened in 1913. The Dodgers (or Superbas pre 1913) played in a ballpark called Washington Park in Park Slope from 1898 to 1912. Part of the clubhouse wall still stands. It is now the 3rd Avenue wall to the Con Edison yard at 222 1st Street in Brooklyn.
>>>Part of the clubhouse
wall still stands. It is now the 3rd Avenue wall to the Con Edison yard at 222 1st Street in
Brooklyn. <<<
Which can be glimpsed right here on this Forgotten NY page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/Dodgers/dodgers.html
The Brooklyn team (it had many names including the Superbas
and Bridgegrooms before "Dodgers" caught on) did indeed play at
Washington Park during two separate periods. The first was
from the formation of the team in 1883 until 1891, when the
team moved to Eastern Park in East New York. They played there
until 1898 and it was during this period that the term Trolley Dodgers
was coined, as it is said, in conjunction with a snippy Manhattanite
comment (remember, Brooklyn was still an independent city)
that "Brooklyn doesn't have fans, just a bunch of trolley dodgers."
The team did move back to a new Washington Park in 1898 and remained
until 1913 when Ebbets Field opened.
But what, pray tell, is a "superbas"?
Aw C'mon, didn't you know; a "Superbas" is a really big "bas"!
Plural for Superba
I've been out of town the past two weeks so I'm kind of behind tbings.
When our Sports Travel Tour toured New York, we had a guide who teaches a course on New York baseball of yesteryear. What is amazing is that the Dodgers of Brooklyn still have a strong hold on New Yorkers, those who remember them and those who weretaught about them. I had the privilege of watching them at Ebbets Field on numerous occasions and watched them on WOR-Channel 9. I never accepted the Los Angeles version and probably never will. I'm a Mets fan now.
08/22/2000
[. I never accepted the Los Angeles version and probably never will. I'm a Mets fan now.]
Well Fred, as they said when LA stole our Dodgers, "WE WUZ ROBBED" !!
Bill "Newkirk"
There are a lot of people on both coasts who feel that way Bill. BTW, what did you mean about that three track operation on the Sea Beach. Sorry to say, I didn't understand. Please clear me up on that. I will say that my rides on the Sea Beach were only eventful in that I introduced myself to the two motormen as Sea Beach Fred. They noticed my shirt and were amused. We had a friedly conversation as they kept their compartment open to converse with me.
08/23/2000
[BTW, what did you mean about that three track operation on the Sea Beach. Sorry to say, I didn't understand. Please clear me up on that.]
The Sea Beach, once a four track ROW has of course been reduced to three operating tracks. While the outer two are for the (N)Coney Island or City bound, the newly resignaled somewhat middle track is the third such track. When the West End is closed on weekends or one of the Sea Beach tracks is closed for work, the third track is pressed into service. The freeky thing is seeing any reroutes operating down the third track to Coney island running sort of wrong rail. You didn't see that when you were in town. Try riding an R-32 looking out the railfan window heading southbound.......strange man!
Bill "Newkirk"
I get it now. It seems so simple. Thanks for clearing things us.
DUH FRED
You mean you did not yell at the Top of your Lungs. HERE I AM, SEA BEACH FRED, and I'M BACK. Sgt Jeff was waiting for a call to bail you out when you got in trouble
You forgot the robins
No, I didn't. I deliberately excluded that name, since in that
context I was listing some names by which the Brooklyn team
was known _before_ the term "Dodgers" arose. They were called the
Robins after moving to Ebbets field and long after being called
Trolley Dodgers, on account of their manager Wilbert Robinson who
started in 1914.
Now you have it.
Chris it opened in 1913. 1913-1957; forty-five seasons.
WELCOME BACK, WHERE IS MY T SHIRT???
Hey Bob: They told me they would mail it the next day. I got in New York on Wednesday, so if they mailed in on Thursday you should get it any day. If not let me know and I will raise some hell with them. They told me no problem.
Yes, I know the origin of the Trolley Dodgers.
I thought however, that the name came from an earlier period before Ebbets Field was built. (as the other threads note).
So, does any body know the answer to the original questions?
And, in the early days of the BRT Franklin Ave Line, when it was connected to the Fulton Ave El, there was also a trolley loop connection to the Franklin Line. Were there any stadium specials, that is, could the el trains could go directly to the stadium?
Being too young to have been there, I can only relate what I've seen in old pictures-- you had to walk 1 or 2 short blocks from Empire Blvd to get to Ebbets Field. I think the Prospect Park station on the Brighton Line would have been the closest subway stop. The Flatbush Av. trolley line and the Franklin Av line(Empire Blvd)were right nearby too.
All the Major Streets except Bedford Ave within 2 blocks of Ebbets Field had Trolleys on them, Including Franklin, Rodgers, Empire Blvd, Flatbush, Ocean Aves,
And it was your Brighton that got us there. BTW did you receive something in the mail? I rode the Brighton. It is a good line and I enjoyed the ride very much. I also liked the West End. My favorite train that I identify with is not the same one I knew as a kid. Maybe someday again. I did introduce myself to the two motormen who manned the Sea Beach trains I rode. They got a real kick when I gave them my handle and wanted to know all about our website.
Hey, Fred, welcome back. Hope you enjoyed your stay in the Big Apple. I agree - the N isn't what it used to be. We probably won't see it running express in Manhattan again unless the bridge is fully open to trains once again.
Did you ride the slants on the Q?
Steve: I rode the "D" and I'm not sure what the train was. I was too busy thinking ahead and taking in the scenery.
HA HA, I TOLD YOU THE BRIGHTON RULES, THE SEA BEACH DROOLS.
I rode the Brighton for you. It is a good train but it is a local and has a large section that is a cut. When the Sea Beach becomes an express again your train will be in the backwater. BTW, the Q is going to be extended to Forest Hills soon. It will be the same terminal as the G train.
You just answered my question. The D line has all R-68s while the Q has Wayne's favorite speedsters, the slant R-40s.
P. S. At least the Mets took two of three from the Dodgers.
Yes, but the Mets can't seem to catch the Braves. Every time they get close they fall back. I guess a wild card will have to suffice but that means one more playoff. Those six games vs the Braves will tell us Mets fans a lot next month. Keep the faith Steve.
I find it a bit amusing that even though the Braves have won something like eight division titles in a row, all they have to show for it is exactly one World Series championship. Of course, if the Mets do win the Series, if the parade happened to occur while I was in the city, you can bet I'd be there. (I actually had a dream the other night that they won it, believe it or not. Subway Series to boot!)
I'm just hoping Notre Dame has a decent season.
If you rode on the "D" it was an R-68
Peace,
ANDEE
Fred, glad to see you enjoyed riding the BMT's Numero Uno rapid transit line.
See, a ride on the D wasn't so bad after all.
:-)
Welcome Back!
Doug aka BMTman
DON T FORGET TO PUT A GOOD WORD FOR YOUR TRAVEL AGENT, FRED
Hey, Bob, you must be really happy to see Fred back. You haven't stopped shouting yet.:-)
We haven't had any serious Brighton-Sea Beach debates lately.
Steve: I'm always outnumbered by Bob, Doug and Newkirk, not to mention a few others I can't recall right about now. If I had some backup I could battle better. The fact is I like the Brighton second to the Sea Beach. I never said I hated it. But you know what happens when a rivalry develops. Come to think of it, maybe that handle to laid on me might not have been such a good idea after all. NO, not really. I wear it with pride, as well as that "N" shirt Brighton Beach sent me when he was in New York. I hope he gets the shirt I had mailed to him. I hope the Transit Store at Grand Central didn't screw it up.
08/22/2000
[Steve: I'm always outnumbered by Bob, Doug and Newkirk, not to mention a few others I can't recall right about now. If I had some backup I could battle better.]
Hi Fred!
Think of the Brighton line as a cult and not just another subway line! BTW, you said you rode the (D) on the Brighton. I assume this may have been a weekend? Maybe a weekday ride on the (Q) on a "shovelnose" R-40 would have made you a convert! Also how did you absorb the 3 track operation on the Sea Beach?
Bill "Newkirk"
In any event, I find myself chuckling when one of these debates starts up. I personally like both lines as well, and as I've said before, the Southern Division as a whole is special to me. I was an R-32/BMT/N fan before becoming an R-10/IND/A fan. And as you know, the very first train I ever rode on was an N.
Then maybe Steve, you can give me some backup when the Brighton Boys gang up on me.
N for Nurd, Nowhere. Maybe when they do the new -Set up, The Slow Beach will be a shuttle in non rush hours, the West End will go to Astoria, The Q to Queens. Just giving Fred a Hard Time
Maybe Brighton Bullies would be a better term.:-) Come to think of it, that would almost describe the BMT standards. Look what they did to any car that picked a fight with them.
Doug: I have to admit I liked the Brighton very much. I like the combo of subway, cut, and elevated and the scenery was good, so good, in fact, that I wasn't aware of what type of train I was on. Steve 8AVEXP told me since it was a D it had to be an R-68. But you have to understand my long loyalty to the Sea Beach. When I introoduced myself to the two different motormen I encountered as Sea Beach Fred they both broke into a smile and it was a friendly ride. They were unaware of our website but hopefully they will tune in and see what they were missing all the time. PS--it's good to be back.
Going to Ebbets Field was so much different from going to a modern ball field. You are right that it was a short walk of a few blocks from the Prospect Park station. On the way, there were souvenir sellers and food vendors. I especially remember the hot peanut carts with their little steam whistles. The paper bags with the peanuts featured a drawing of an elephant with either 5c or 10c on a blanket on their backs. On the SE corner of Flatbush & Empire Blvd was a big eatery that had seen better days. On the south side of Empire Blvd. just east of Flatbush there was a German beer garden that us kids weren't even allowed to walk into. It was a popular destination with some after the games.
When the trolley coaches were there, they left from the curb on the entire block east of Flatbush on Empire Blvd. Of special note was that there were two sets of wires with wire switches so the Lorimer and Tompkins trolleys could pass each other.
On the south side of Empire Blvd. just east of Flatbush there was a German beer garden that us kids weren't even allowed to walk into. It was a popular destination with some after the games.
Was that Consumer's Park, of Malbone Street Wreck (semi-) fame?
No, the Consumer's Park Brewery Building is still there, and you can still make out the lettering from the Franklin r-o-w. It's north of Malbone Street/Empire Blvd. on the east side of the tracks. See the picture at http://rapidtransit.com/net/thirdrail/0003/bf_dd4.htm.
also on the South side of Empire was a old fashion bowling alley where the age restriction was none, and had both duck pins and regular bolwling, and Pin Boys as late as 58
08/22/2000
Oh boy do I remember Empire & Flatbush as a youngster with my family going to see my grandmother waiting for the B48-Lorimer trackless trolleys. I was fascinated when the trackless coaches would go across the switches in the wires and they would spark. I also remember the "beer garden" you mentioned, though I don't recall if it was closed down or still open. The time line should be July 1957 1960 or 61.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also the smell of the bread from if I remember correctly Bond Bread, and all you can think of was Hoppy(Hopalong Casidy) I wonder where he got that name Hopalong
Interesting that you should mention Bond Bread. The facility later became a TA substation if I recall correctly (70's to early 90's)
The last time I passed there I saw a real estate sign on the building. Sad but true.
Doug aka BMTman
The Bond Bread factory wsa a popular destination for school trips. We watched it being made with the dough being mixed in big vats. At the end of the tour, each kid got a complimentary loaf of the bread, still warm from the production line. Egged on by the delicious smell of the baking bread, few of us could resist tearing open our bags right away to eat some of the bread.
That was the nadir of commercial bread in the U.S., IMO. Consumers prized fresh over flavor, and the spongy airy breads like Bond and Wonder typified the era--the softness suggsted fresh, whether it was true or not.
When you ate the bread still warm, it still had a little of the flavor the aroma suggested. Once it cooled off, it was as tasteless as all the other mass produced bread of the era.
The last trolley line to run within sight of Ebbets Field was probably the Flatbush Ave. car, which went in 1951.
The two lines that the Dodger fans would have most likely have "dodged" would have been the Franklin and Tompkins cars, which were converted about 1947 or '48.
There were still (trackless) trolleys on the Lorimer (replaced Franklin) and Tompkins Lines until 1960.
There was not elevated service direct to Ebbets Field. The trolley loops on the Brighton Line went south from Prospect Park from the Coney Island traffic.
Until the Dodgers' last year (1957) Triplexes used to line up on the express tracks on game Sundays to carry people home from the game.
Thank you for the info.
Are the tracks still under the pavement?
Most trolley tracks in Brooklyn were left in place and merely paved over. I remember seeing them along Metropolitan Ave., Broadway, Jamaica Ave., and Myrtle Ave. Most cities followed this practice. Here in Denver, tracks were discovered during street rehabilitation along Broadway and Colfax Ave. as well as Evans Ave., and were ripped up in the process.
AFAIK, most of the old New York Railways trackwork in Manhattan was ripped up during WWII because of the need for steel. OTOH, it's possible that most of the Third Ave. Railway trackage is still there.
Most, if not all of the New York Railways trackage was ripped out after the last Green Line operation in June 1936. There are pictures in New York Railways - The Green Line; N.J. International, 1994 of the track and conduit being ripped out of Lexington Avenue at 41st and on Broadway at City Hall and at Fulton St. It's safe to say that there was no track on the former Green Line routes when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
The Jamaica Ave tracks are still there. They were visable during the demolition of the el in the late 70's. Made for bumpy bus rides.
If you watch the opening titles of Welcome Back, Kotter, specifically the later ones, you can see trolley tracks along 86th St. under the elevated West End structure.
Interestingly enough, about the only spot where I saw both track rails exposed at any spot was along Jamaica Ave. before the el turned onto it. On most of the other streets I mentioned, only the outer rails were visible. There was a pedestrian bridge over Myrtle Ave. just east of Woodhaven Blvd. which still had wire hangers on its underside.
08/22/2000
[Interestingly enough, about the only spot where I saw both track rails exposed at any spot was along Jamaica Ave. before the el turned onto it. On most of the other streets I mentioned, only the outer rails were visible.]
It's funny how abandoned street car tracks have a way of haunting us years later as to tell us of their premature demise!
Bill "Newkirk"
It's funny how abandoned street car tracks have a way of haunting us years later as to tell us of their premature demise!
I watched some number of these tracks being paved over. They were typically simply covered with a layer of asphalt--no grinding, no laying of a wire mesg ot a a base of concrete or any other substrate.
I'm surprised tracks aren't sticking up all over the place.
Trolley tracks in Brooklyn along Neptune Ave between Ocean Pkwy and the Brighton Line were showing up for years until the street was completely redone in the late 1980s.
I am certain parts of Coney Island Ave have them exposed in places as that street hasn't undergone a complete rehab - just multiple asphalt layers.
--Mark
I remember them sticking out at Flatbush and Fulton, and the Willy B Bridge Terminal in Bklyn
[ Are the tracks still under the pavement? ]
Almost certainly. Trolley tracks in Brooklyn were almost never ripped up, except as part of major (and rare) street rehabilitation. If some urban archeologist came up with some really good reason to find out if there was a certain kind of trolley switch in a particular place, you could probably just rip up the street and look (with permission, one would hope).
Typically, trolley track was laid on wooden crossties. I wonder if these ties could rot sufficiently over the years to cause problems with the street surface.
Depending on the paving material used, as long as water didn't get to the ties, they'd probably hold up for some time. Most cities paved around streetcar (oops, trolley) tracks with cobblestones for ease of maintenance. Chicago is a good example of this, as is my hometown, South Bend.
Speaking of South Bend, my father remembers seeing tracks along Madison Ave. in 1949; streetcar service had ended in 1940. By the time I was a kid, there were no tracks left anywhere. Madison Ave. had an offset cobbled center strip where the tracks were, then that was eventually covered over with asphalt.
The Dodgers most likely dodged Dodges (the Chrysler kind). There used to be a dealership within the vicinty of the stadium (I believe Empire & Washington??)
Doug aka BMTman
I have an Ebbets Field calendar that shows such a place. Good memory on your part. BTW are you old enough to have remembered the Brooklyn Dodgers?
I recieved my list ranking. Its exam number 9003 . Im list number 233.
How long do you think I'll have to wait to be called for an opening?
Is that a good list number? Or should I just forget about it?.....
I don't know but I am as interested as you are - I am number 227.
Did you score 95.000 too?
wayne
You'll probably be called for the first class off the list. The same goes for Rob99. I don't know when they will be calling off the list. They just had a new class of conductors hit the road about one month ago. They came off a promotional list.
Yeah I scored a 95 too.Where did you take your test at?
To the best of my knowledge, the list is not official until it is certified. This can take up to 1 year. The TA is currently calling conductors from the prior list, which has not yet been killed. There is a minimum time that a list must remain in existance (2 years I think).
If this can be of any help, I took the bus operator/conductor test in September of 1985, scored 100.000, was list number 269, and got appointed as a conductor on August 24, 1987. Proud to say that this Thursday begins year number 14.
Now that heypaul is safely a few hundred miles away in Florida, I've decided that this would be a good time for me to visit New York City and Philadelphia.
Here's my planned schedule:
Friday the 25th: Arrive at the Port Authority bus terminal around 11:00 PM. I'll probably be rather exhausted by this point and ready to head straight to my friend's place at 87th and Amsterdam.
Saturday the 26th: I'll be getting up at the crack of dawn and catching the first available commuter train to Philly, where I will spend all day exploring the city, taking a look at Drexel University, and hopefully finding a place to live (all in one day!). Needless to say, I'll have a lot on my plate that day and probably won't have much time for railfanning or socializing. However, I'd be happy to meet up with any Philly SubTalkers for a good cheesteak around lunchtime. Late that evening I'll grab a train back to NYC, hopefully early enough to make it over to Coney Island that night while things are still open.
Sunday the 27th: I plan on attending morning worship services at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church. The rest of my schedule that day is still fairly open, so that might be a good time to meet up with any NYC SubTalkers. I'll be heading back to Boston around 7:00 PM.
Let me know if you're interested in meeting up with me.
-- David
Boston, MA
For each of the 6 or so years I was in my church youth choir, we would go to NYC to sing at that church as well as see a show and do some other activity. Its a really wonderful chruch with amazing acoustics.
I've dropped in and taken a look at the sanctuary there, but I've never actually been to a worship service at that church. My home church is the Fourth Presbyterian Church of Chicago, directly across Michigan Avenue from the Hancock Center, and I was very active there up until the time I moved to Boston. In fact, most of my friendships and social life centered around the Fourthcomers young adults group at Fourth Church. Fourth Church has always had a rather close relationship with Fifth Avenue Presbyterian, so I'm looking forward to checking it out.
I think most of the Presbyterians were driven out of New England by the Puritans at some point, so I've been attending worship services at Trinity Church (Episcopalian) here in Boston since I arrived. Trinity is beautiful church with an excellent music program and some great people, but it just doesn't feel like home. Hopefully I'll be able to find something in Philly that fills the void I've been feeling since I left Fourth Church.
-- David
Boston, MA
I think most of the Presbyterians were driven out of New England by the Puritans at some point, so I've been attending worship services at Trinity Church (Episcopalian) here in Boston since I arrived. Trinity is beautiful church with an excellent music program and some great people, but it just doesn't feel like home. Hopefully I'll be able to find something in Philly that fills the void I've been feeling since I left Fourth Church.
I don't believe that there ever were many Presbyterians in New England. It was largely Episcopalian and Congregational territory, until of course immigration brought in many Catholics starting in the middle 1800's.
To get back to your original point, the shortage of housing in Boston, if for some reason you have to stay in the area you ought to ask around at the church you attend. Somebody might have a place to rent or know of someone who does. Given the severe housing shortages in the area, I'll bet a high percentage of the places that are available are rented through word of mouth rather than advertisements.
Most, if not all, of the NYC SubTalkers will be at the Farewell to the Redbirds Fan Trip that Sunday. Cost $35 (day of trip); check out Upcoming Events for details.
I don't know if any of you guys from Chicago or the Chicago Area have managed to get out to Oak Park lately, but you should.
THE CTA and Metra finally have a facility that houses both Rail Systems in one building.
For the longest time the CTA Harlem/Lake Green Line Terminal was between Harlem Ave. on the West and just short of Marion Street on the East with an extra full turnstile entrance at Marion.
The Metra Union Pacific West line had it's western border on the east side of Marion Street about 50 feet away from the auxiliary entrance to the CTA Station at Marion St.
Whent the Green Line re-opened the Harlem Ave. Entrance was basically untouched, however Marion St. was fully renovated and made handicapped accessible. Approx. 1996-1997. It didn't fully open accessible until after the rest of the line opened up for service again.
The Metra Station still remained old, but nice, and kinda out of date.
Metra earlier this year (2000) decided to rebuild the station and it is beautiful. The Metra Station now has it's ticket offices inside the CTA Marion Street Entrance to the Green Line. The Green Line Entrance takes up the South side of the building. The Metra UP-N entrance now takes up the before un-used North Side of the Building.
Metra now build enclosed slopping upward ramps from the CTA Station entrance over Marion Street to connect with the newly built concrete platforms for the new Metra Station.
With the Ticket Offices being now in the CTA Building, the in-bound platform no longer needs a ticket office on it and now has room for a enclosed glass heated (and hopefully air-conditioned) waiting area. There are 2 platforms. One side platform for inbound trains on track 1 and one island for outbound trains on tracks 2 & 3.
What makes this facility so neat is the fact that you can watch Green Line Trains pass by ever 10 minutes or less for free by just walking up on the Metra Out-Bound platform. The UP-N trains have left hand operation, so the outbound platform is next to the Green Line Tracks.
This is really fun at night, I was there last night after dining in Oak Park and decided to take a walk to see the new station. It just officially opened Aug. 8, 2000.
This is great for rail-fans. You can ride Metra one-way and then take the CTA back the other way, or vice versa. The Metra Platforms also provide for great picture taking of the Green Line Trains as they just start to take off East-Bound out of the Harlem Station towards Chicago & make the final stop comming out of Chicago.
Are there any other transit facilities like this in NYC or anywher in the world for that matter? This is pretty unique with the Rapid Transit and Regular Diesel Trains runnning together on the same embankment and sharing a fare collection house.
I can't think of any other where they are this close to each other, can you?? The Purple Line & UP-N in Evanston Comes close with the stations about 100-200 feet apart.
BJ
PS: The station house is really neat with the green and white tiling, for the green line. Kinda of confusing for Metra rides with the UP-W having Pink as it's official schedule color. Metra doesn't use colors for anything but the schedules anyway!
i think there are a couple like that in d.c. on the red line but i've never been there so i don't konw for sure...
The Silver Spring Metro and MARC stations aren't that far apart; they have a couple of others: Alexandria AMTRAK/VRE and King Street *Blue/Yellow* and New Carrollton Metro and MARC (Orange)
Of course, you can't beat Union Station itself (Metro Red line and Amtrak/MARC/freight lines etc.)
wayne
There are a few such stops in the Boston area: Porter Square and Quincy Center on the Red Line; and Back Bay, Ruggles, and Forest Hills on the Orange Line all come to mind. Also, South Station in Boston as well as Grand Central and Penn Stations in NYC have entrances to subway stations within the main terminal itself.
Which brings up an interesting trivia question: What transit facility in the US serves the most modes of transportation? Modes of transit can include subway/rapid transit, local bus, long-distance bus, automobile, light rail/trolley, commuter rail, Amtrak, ferry service, and even airlines in the case of an airport facility. And I mean one integrated facility, not a few seperate facilities haphazardly connected by long passages.
A few possible contenders:
South Station in Boston: Subway, local and long-distance bus, commuter rail, and Amtrak.
30th Street Station in Philly (if I'm not mistaken): Subway, light rail, local bus, commuter rail, and Amtrak.
O'Hare Airport in Chicago: Air, automobile, and subway. (Okay, that's only three modes, but the place is so damn huge it has to count for something.)
Any more?
-- David
Boston, MA
Some examples of convenient if not perfect;
DC Red ine at Rockville Marc--the "ticket office" for MARC(never staffed in my random visits) is physically in the wall of the passageway to Metro. Station also serves ATK
BART in Richmond Ca--ATK again not currently staffed but the one time ticket closet built into the wall of the BART station. ATK here is trains to from San Jose--Sacto and the SanJoaquins(Oakland-Bakersfield eith bus to LA)and of course
PS the sad part in Alexandria is the layout. The under the track tunnel at ATK/VRE should have been drilled right into the fare control space at Metro--particularly annoying in wet weather.
O'Hare Airport in Chicago: Air, automobile, and subway. (Okay, that's only three modes, but the place is so damn huge it has to count for something.)
Don't forget the Metra station (alright, you have to take the ATS train and a bus to get there from the terminals, but it's still in the airport).
-- Ed Sachs
Newark Penn Station: PATH, Subway, Local and Long Distance Bus, Airport Shuttle Bus, Commuter Rail (diesel and electric), Amtrak.
Somehow they forgot to squeeze an airport into Newark Penn..or maybe a heliport? In my mind, you can't get a more perfectly intergrated facility than what Newark Penn Station does...
If the monorail was extended all the way to Penn Station, one could consider Penn Station to be part of the Airport complex and that would make it the GOD (not just a king) of multimodalism.
Actually, it would still need a ferry to do that... Well, the station is near the Passaic River and the airport is near the Port Newark Seaport.
"THE CTA and Metra finally have a facility that houses both Rail systems in one building."
Finally!? Jefferson Park on the Blue Line and the UP-Northwest has been a single station* with a common entrance walkway since the L was extended to Jefferson Park back in 1970.
*As opposed to places where a Metra and CTA station are separate but next to each other, like Davis Street and Main Street on the Purple Line/UP-North (which you mentioned) and Irving Park on the Blue Line/UP-Northwest.
The obvious instance in the New York area is Newark, where PATH shares the trainshed with Amtrak and NJT main-line trains, with the City Subway tucked away in the basement to boot.
There are two examples (involving light rail, not heavy rapid transit) in Baltimore. At Camden Yards the light rail platforms are immediately adjacent to the MARC commuter platforms; and at Penn Station the LRVs use one of the original station tracks and platforms.
Similarly, at Dallas Union Station, DART's LRVs use a platform adjacent to those used by the Trinity Rail Express RDCs (currently just operating between Dallas and Irving, but eventually to be extended to Fort Worth) and Amtrak's _Texas Eagle_.
In the San Jose area, Caltrain's Tamien and Mountain View stations are both adjacent to Valley Transit Authority light rail stations; in the case of Tamien, there's a common station structure. The connection between Caltrain and light rail isn't quite as close at the San Francisco end, but MUNI LRVs terminate at a platform just across the street from the Caltrain station. Also, the BART SFO/Millbrae extension now under construction will share a station with Caltrain at Millbrae. See: http://www.bart.org/westbay/station/millbrae.htm
At San Diego, light rail tracks are immediately adjacent to the Amtrak and Coaster main line.
I'm not familiar with the station layout, but Miami's Metro heavy rapid transit and Tri-Rail commuter trains connect at Metrorail Transfer station.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I knew I was forgetting somewhere when I posted, Jefferson Park never crossed my mind, even though I have been there several times. Oak Park is much nicer though and has a ticket Office. J.P. doesn't, does it?? I never saw one. It is also very old, but suppost to be renovated in the next few years according to the Metra Future Plans. The L Station is very nice.
I will be back again the first week of September as I was last year for the Annual taste of Polonia. It sound corny, but the food is good and it is another reason besides for the hell of it (Which is usually my excuse) to ride the CTA.
BJ
If anyone has been up to Toronto, Canada, you will know about Union Station. That houses the GO Transit trains, TTC's Spadina Trolley and Lakeshore Trolley (I forgot the route numbers) and the TTC's Younge/Spadina Subway Line. It's really an interesting place to see!
B61 Leonard
TTC's Spadina Trolley and Lakeshore Trolley (I forgot the route numbers)
Spadina is 510, the new Waterfront route is 509. Not sure if the Lakeshore route was replaced by 509 or if it is still running - seems to me that there were signs for a 511 there also. 510 is bustituted at the moment while major rehab is going on.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey. Why did they get rid of the switch tracks from the northbound Culver local track to the express track? There used to be one just south of Kings Highway, just north of Kings Highway, and just north of 18th Avenue, but now all three are gone, and you can only switch south of Avenue U and north of Ditmas Avenue. What was the "logical" reasoning behind removing them, and now how do they expect to reroute trains?
- Lyle Goldman
they do'nt expect to reroute them
But what if they have to? Let's say, for instance, there is a train stuck on the local track between Kings Highway and 18th Avenue. With the old configuration, a train could just bypass the four stations between them, and it could still pick up passengers at all other stations. As an even better example, suppose there is a train stuck on the local track at Kings Highway? With the old configuration, a train could go along the center track at Kings Highway without skipping any stations. Now, it would have to skip Avenue U, Avenue P, Avenue N, Bay Parkway, and Avenue I, for a total of five stations and dozens, or possibly even hundreds, of inconvenienced people. These things have happened before, and undoubtedly will happen again. I think we can all agree that removing those switches was a very stupid thing to do.
- Lyle Goldman
i was being half sarcastic of course it was stupid
It saves $$$ on maintenance, but I wonder how much it costs to maintain a single switch for a year?
This is a classic argument between operating departments and
track/signal departments. Of course, operations should like
to have many switches in many locations for maximum flexibility.
Track and signal, on the other hand, would like the least
number possible. How much does it cost to maintain a switch
per year? It depends how the bean counters count the beans.
One single crossover involves at least the following components:
2 switch machines
2 frogs
4 switch points
a bunch of guard rails and related hardware
at least 2 but usually more like 12 insulated joints
a homeball and either a reverse homeball, dwarf signal or marker
signal to protect movements, plus approach signals. All of these
have 2-6 light bulbs.
a few dozen vital signal relays
several interlocking levers in the tower or the equivalent in
pushbuttons and route control relays
All of these components require periodic maintenance of varying
degrees. The track geometry car must spend extra time going over
the crossover in all possible directions and measuring for flaws.
Same goes for the Sperry car. The signal bulbs have to be changed,
the insulated joints have to be dressed, the switch machine throw
and check circuits need to be inspected, the points, frog and
guardrails should be lubed (although I don't know if the TA does
this), relays need to be field-inspected and cable bundles need
to be checked for grounds and crosses. The trip arms need to be
painted yellow and checked for proper operation.
Well, you get the idea. Add it all up and you can make the argument
that this one simple crossover costs $10,000 per year to maintain.
Of course, get rid of the crossover but don't expect that $10,000
in "soft money" to suddenly show up on the plus side of the balance
sheet!
So that must be why they did it.
By the way, what exactly does the Sperry car do? I've seen it many times, but I never knew what its purpose is.
- Lyle Goldman
The Sperry car checks for various types of invisible metal flaws
in the rails which can lead to sudden failure. It does this
via ultrasound. In order to get a clean ultrasonic connection to
the rail it sprays a water bath over the area under test. By
electronically analyzing the ultrasonic echo signature and comparing
it against a known baseline, flawed rail can be detected and,
when it is, the area is marked off for further examination. This
is all done while the car, which is self-propelled, moves along.
The same technique is used to check for metal flaws on aircraft.
Jeff, is the SRS car diesel or gasoline powered?
Thanks,
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry to say internal combustion vehicles are not my strong suit.
The Sperry car is an ex Doodlebug, a Mack Railbus, but I don't
recall the nature of the engine.
> The same technique is used to check for metal flaws on aircraft.
They use railroad cars to check for flaws on aircraft? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
So why did they do it?
- Lyle Goldman
My friend Chris is taking a trip to the east coast. He will be visiting Boston, NYC, Philly, and D.C.. I know what lines in the former three he should ride based on experience and a long time on these boards, but what lines in D.C. would one need to ride to get a good experience? I would be interested in knowing the most interesting single MARC line, but mainly what metros to ride....
My favorite is the Yellow Line. In Virginia, it is elevated. I like the fact that the Metro station at Washington National Aiport (I refuse to call it by its new official name) is a reasonable short distance from the terminal. The best part of the line, though, is the bridge over the Potomac, which provides great views of the city. To top it off, you can see the marvelous engineering/design of L'Enfant Plaza, a major transfer point where the Yellow and Green Lines intersect with the Orange and Blue Lines (yes, Metro Center & Gallery Place are just about identical). Those major stations are like vaulted cathedrals.
Other SubTalkers will better be able to speak to the best lines, tech-wise.
The above-ground run on the Orange Line to Vienna can get some really good speed going, and you might even get to wave at motorists stuck sitting in their cars on I-66. [snick]
I also recommend taking a run on the Red Line on the Glenmont side. Between Union Station and Rhode Island Av you get a great view of one of the yards, and you can also see some Amtrak yard action.
That's okay, I won't call Pennsylvania Blvd. in Philadelphia by its official name (JFK), or NYC's East River Drive by its official name (FDR), either. And maybe I will use Columbia Avenue's new name in Phila, 'cause Cecil B. Moore was a nice guy. I'm still debating about Benjamin Franklin Parkway and the Holland Tunnel... :-)
Must liberal politics ALWAYS include being closed-minded and unpleasant in out-of-context situations??
Carl, how do you feel about Columbus Blvd? Personally I'll stick to Delaware Ave.
As someone who was born and bred in the Baltimore/Washington--here are my favorites...I agree w/ Keystone Pete, I love the Yellow Line, the terminal station, Huntington, is an architectural marvel the way it is built into a hillside, also, you must experience one of the deep stations, (i.e. Dupont Circle, Wheaton, etc.) If you want to see life through the eyes of a DC resident, ride the Red Line between Union Station & Silver Spring or the Orange Line between Stadium-Armory & Deanwood, there you get to see the DC the tourists don't see. As for the Marc Lines, the Penn & Camden Lines are pretty much the same between DC & Baltimore, but I Love the Brunswick Line that runs out to Martinsburg, WV---The section around Harper's Ferry is worth the trip in my book--the lower part around Rockville just runs through typical suburbia. While in the area though, a ride on the light rail in Baltimore between BWI & Penn Station may not be a bad idea, you get a good view of Oriole Park @ Camden Yards and PSINet Stadium (Ravens Stadium), plus, the ride up the center of Howard Street produces some interesting sites (some good, some not so good)
he's ridden the Baltimore LRT before (didn't make it to DC on that trip) and vowed never to ride it again. With all that single track, and without timed signals, and with LRVs waiting for peds everywhere, we rank Baltimore as the worst light rail system in the United States.
Those were some interesting observations, but I am sure you will have to agree that they constitute just one opinion. In fairness to the readers of this group, other opinions are in order. What you and your friend see as negatives, others may see as interesting and even fascinating; what others see as positives, you may have no interest in at all.
My wife and I have ridden the Baltimore Light Rail several times from the Cromwell Station terminus in Glen Burnie to the Hunt Valley terminus and have found the experience to be delightful. For starts, the parking is plentiful and free at Cromwell Station, especially on the weekends (of interest to some, but not to others). There are no cranky turnstiles or fare collection machines; in fact there are no turnstiles. You do have to interact with a machine to purchase your ticket; after that you just get on and produce it when asked by some in authority (in fact, I have never been asked; and yes the penalties for fare avoidance are severe). It is as pleasant way as any to get to the Camden Yards/Inner Harbor area as any; certainly more pleasant than driving.
On the kind of ticket I purchased (day pass, $3.00) you could ride and get off and get back on again whenever you wanted all day long. Off at Inner Harbor, back on, off in the Walters Art Gallery/Washington Monument Area, back on, then all the way to Hunt Valley, where, by the way, there is a very nice place to eat at the Hunt Valley Inn.
The route takes you through the southern suburbs of Baltimore, through the city, past all kinds of neighborhoods, market areas, shopping areas, then out through the northern part of the city through suburbs again and back yards. Sometimes, it is as if you are out in the country, not in the suburbs, and the track bed parallels a rushing stream for a good while. The trip is just a good slice of Baltimore. The negative factors you mentioned--single tracking and stopping for pedestrians--were simply interesting oddities to us. They provided longer stops for enjoying the scenery. That may not be everyones cup of tea, but differences in taste is the point of this posting. It is a matter of what you are looking for and what you might find interesting (and did I mention that I found the light rail cars interesting looking and comfortable?). This is not to say I would recommend it as a regular commute, but that that did not sound like the intention of the original question.
On another note, during one of our rides there occurred just about the worst storm I had ever seen in my thirty-five years in Maryland; the skies turned dark as night in mid-afternoon, lightning, very heavy winds, horizontal rain, electricity knocked out in nearby areas. None of this had any effect on our trip (all above ground).
I also know there are a few wags on this group, some of whom might even point out that this is all very well and good, but crashes kind of take the fun out of it. Well, the system is not that old; lets give it fifty or a hundred years and see how it goes over the long run
I'll lay you odds that Light Rail Rules! has not been east of the Mississippi River. He lives in Portland, and only knows what he's read of the Baltimore MTA's Central Light Rail Line.
As to crashes, our only two serious accidents were both at BWI, one in February and one just two weeks ago. In both cases the operators were fired, the first due to cocaine use, and the second for careless operation.
BTW, I keep Light Rail Rules! in my Killfile. I find many of his posts to be without merit.
Light Rail Rules changed his handle to Siemens(something or other)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I know. He's still in my Killfile. It's now SiemensD600, but he's still killed and will remain so until he either grows up or leaves.
The Red Line gets some great speed and curves between Dupont Circle and Woodley Park-Zoo, and dig that cave-like tunnel construction. You also hit two air shafts on that stretch, giving you a great "PWOOWW!" sound. Parts of the "outer" Green Line (Fort Totten to College Park) are nice, with good speed in the tunnel east of Fort Totten. The Blue Line to New Carrollton has a good elevated view of the Anacostia River and the nearby sports complex, then runs alongside the Amtrak line. The line to Vienna (Orange? I forget) operates in the median of I-66, which I find interesting.
Of the MARC lines...the Penn Line uses Amtrak trackage and is electrified, with excellent speed in places. The Camden Line (non-electric) is somewhat more scenic; my favorite point is in Relay, southwest Balto. county just before the Patapsco River crossing, where you pass a group of lovely old houses.
Red is the best subway line. The elevated between Silver Spring and Union Station rules and so does the bridge over the beltway between Medical Center and Grosvenor. The Orange Line between Ballston and Vienna is fun too since you go in the median of I-66. The Green Line is next on the list. It's northern half is curvy and fun but the southern part (south of L'Enfant Plaza) is boring and isn't the safest place to be. Blue ranks 4th on my list. The best part is south of National Airport. The Yellow Line is last and shares this speedway with the blue line but heads off to an architectural finish at Huntington instead of taking the fast run to Franconia-Springfield.
My favorite line is the Red Line from Silver Spring vicinity to Grosvenor. Rhode Island Avenue station is about 50 feet off the ground (which can be a problem when the T/O doesn't pull all the way into the station, as happened once. Fortunately, people were paying attention!). Then, you get a great view of Brentwood yard and the Amtrak yards headed into Union Station. Between Judiciary Square and Gallery Place, be sure to look for the old money train platform -- still lit. Also, just before the train enters Farragut North Station, you can see to the right of the train a non-revenue track connecting the Red and Orange/Blue lines.
Also, Forest Glen is interesting because there are no steps nor escalators to the surface. It is too far underground for escalators, so a bank of elevators provides street access.
Monday's _Times_, already availabe online, had an article that is rather disheartening in tone. Entitled "High Tech Jobs Come to Logging Country," it describes how the economy in Coos Bay, Oregon has been changed by the advent of Internet-related call center jobs. A Virginia company, CyberRep.com, has opened a call center in Coos Bay, employing about 350 people answering technical-support calls for about $8 to $9 per hour. These jobs are highly sought after in Coos Bay, whose economy has been very hard-hit by declines in the logging and fisheries industries.
What bothers me about this is the fact that one of the call center's two main customers is barnesandnoble.com (Microsoft Network is the other). Barnesandnoble.com is a venture largely owned by NYC-based Barnes & Noble. And it's all too clear that the call-center jobs are as desparately needed in much of NYC as they are in Oregon. Just think of what a miracle 350 new jobs would be in Brooklyn or the Bronx. I know, Barnes & Noble is a public company answerable to shareholders, and as such has to keep costs in mind when outsourcing services. But I firmly believe that the company should have explored the possibility of opening its own call center in NYC, either directly or through a local contractor, before hiring an out-of-state contractor that sends the jobs 3,000 miles away. Somehow I suspect that Barnes & Noble didn't look into that possibility.
Something else to ponder:
I remember reading an article in the Times some months, or even a couple of years, ago about New York-based companies, such as banks and brokerage firms, locating their customer service centers in the South and the Midwest, and making no bones about the fact that the reason behind this was not just to save money, but also because people from New York were too rude to be effective in that line of work!
Re: Barnes & Noble's use of a call center in Oregon
I remember reading an article in the Times some months, or even a couple of years, ago about New York-based companies, such as banks and brokerage firms, locating their customer service centers in the South and the Midwest, and making no bones about the fact that the reason behind this was not just to save money, but also because people from New York were too rude to be effective in that line of work!
That's one of those beliefs that, although clearly a stereotype, undoubtedly does contain some degree of truth. But I don't believe that it's the sort of obstacle that can't be overcome. Figure it this way: if the call center announced that it was planning to hire 350 people in the Bronx or Brooklyn, it would be swamped with thousands of applicants - probably tens of thousands. Surely there are ways of screening people for attitude and demeanor, such as could select a sufficient number of polite workers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that NYC businesses should never outsource service functions to contractors in the Sunbelt. Sometimes the cost differentials will be just too great to overlook. But before doing so, the businesses should at least look into the possibility of locating these functions in the city. NYC desparately needs more jobs, most Sunbelt locations do not.
I'm not saying I agree with the reasoning either, but the companies cited their experience with the polite nature of our Sunbelt neighbors as compared to the take-no-shit-from-nobody attitude of your typical New Yorker. Incidentally, we transplants tend to modify our demeanor as we live here longer and longer, thus raising the nature vs. nurture debate, but that's another topic.
Personally, I don't know how long I would be able to hang on to a sunny disposition while listening to complaining customers all day at $8/hr. Since I went to school in North Carolina, I noticed first-hand the ability southerners have to remain forever genteel in the face of adversity.
By contrast, in New York, it's easy to see exactly where you stand, and where you rate compared to the rest of society, because the contrasts are so close and so glaring. This is actually what I like about it. Nothing hidden.
In the South, the "sense of place" overrides the "sense of self," and, coincidentally, breeds contempt for the so-called Eastern Establishment Elite.
But back to the original point: I would rather not be coddled by a customer service rep. Just tell me what I have to do to get the problem fixed. I think native New Yorkers, as long as you ask them respectfully, would perform even better in this regard.
My cousins, who were born and raised in Canarsie, Brooklyn until 1997 (they're now 12 and 9) now speak a perfect "y'all" So does their Mom. Guess they got it from their stepdad.
-Hank
Personally, I don't know how long I would be able to hang on to a sunny disposition while listening to complaining customers all day at $8/hr. Since I went to school in North Carolina, I noticed first-hand the ability southerners have to remain forever genteel in the face of adversity.
By contrast, in New York, it's easy to see exactly where you stand, and where you rate compared to the rest of society, because the contrasts are so close and so glaring. This is actually what I like about it. Nothing hidden.
I can tell you exactly how long I'd last in a job like that - five minutes :-)
But seriously, customer service/call center jobs are notorious for their high employee turnover rates. My guess is that the one in Oregon that started this thread will be worse than average, as according to the _Times_ article many of the people being hired are displaced logging workers, who probably are proud, no-nonsense types who'll consider this form of work demeaning. Unless they're really desparate for work, they probably won't last.
Even so, I still believe that call center jobs, as mediocre as they may be, would be a wonderful development for the Bronx and Brooklyn. Mediocre work is infinitely better than no work at all.
(Since I went to school in North Carolina, I noticed first-hand the ability southerners have to remain forever genteel in the face of adversity.)
When I was in college I worked in market research, and had to call over the country. My unscientific survey said the nicest people to talk with in the country are in the Upper Midwest and Rockies. Call centers are clustered in those areas.
New York and the South are average: New Yorkers are nice but not polite, sotherners are polite but not nice. The nastiest people come from West Texas.
When I was in college I worked in market research, and had to call over the country. My unscientific survey said the nicest people to talk with in the country are in the Upper Midwest and Rockies. Call centers are clustered in those areas.
Call centers prefer to hire people who do not have strong regional accents. And people in the Upper Midwest and Rockies, by and large, do not have noticeable accents.
New York and the South are average: New Yorkers are nice but not polite, sotherners are polite but not nice. The nastiest people come from West Texas.
I'm not sure I grasp the distinction between "polite" and "nice," at least not in this context. Can you give any examples?
I must say I'm very surprised at your comment about West Texas. I have heard that drivers in that area are the most polite in the country, in terms of letting faster vehicles pass, relinquishing the right of way at stops, etc.
Wide shoulders on the highways and 70 mph on just about all the interstate and non-interstate roads out there, though most people do about 75 if they can get away with it. Those who keep it at the limit usually will pull over and drive on the shoulder, especially in the areas that are flat and straight for miles on end, so you know there's no surprises around the next curve, like a narrow bridge or a parked vehicle.
What's nasty out there are the deer, particularly south of Interstate 10. They kind of stand on the side of the road at twilight with a Clint Eastwood "Go ahead, make my day attitude," by basically daring the drivers to go 70 and risk having one of those things dart out in front of you. And northwest of San Antonio you have to deal with both the deer and the blue-haired retirees who are as much a terror on the road there as they are in Florida. Makes you wish for bus or rail service.
(I'm not sure I grasp the distinction between "polite" and "nice," at least not in this context. Can you give any examples.)
New York: "What do you freaking people want now?" Followed by help in doing your task and a pleasant conversation about your family.
South: "Well, hello, it's so nice to hear from yooouuu." Followed by polite evasions and no interest in your family.
West Texas: "Hello, what's your bitch." Followed by a slammed down phone.
Pity some young people I've known can't do any better than what the f--- do you want. Rap and MTV mentality?
That mentality caused a premature end to the 'Source' music awards show, according to apbnews.com
-Hank
I didn't find any references to this on that website, so I don't know what you're talking about.
re Source music awards
I didn't find any references to this on that website, so I don't know what you're talking about.
It was a rap music awards show held in Pasadena the other night. The proceedings had to be called off prematurely after fistfights broke out among the audience and even on stage.
The fights STARTED on stage.
-Hank
(Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that NYC businesses should never outsource service functions to contractors in the Sunbelt.
Sometimes the cost differentials will be just too great to overlook. But before doing so, the businesses should at least look into
the possibility of locating these functions in the city. NYC desparately needs more jobs, most Sunbelt locations do not.)
As far as I'm concerned, the term "loyalty" should be banished from employer/employee relationships, because where it exists it only goes one way. New hires should be made to sign an government consent form stating that they fully understand that the person doing the hiring could care less about them and their family, and will screw them if it gains them a nickel. Even if it isn't true of that particular boss or company, it is still true in the long run, because the boss can be replaced and the company can be bought out.
Didn't hear much about loyalty in 1991.
I read the same article on-line. It was about a small town in Tennessee or somewhere in the southeast that has so many call centers, it's actually the only job in town.
-Hank
An employer would be swamped, but with applications all from the same less than desirable labor pool. The problem really is in the schools. Call center employees are usually people who only complete high school. The NYC (and other cities) high school system is a disaster. A lot of these kids just want to be entertained not employed. We closed Jersey City down (actually moved it to Nebraska) for this reason among others. For example we had to put out a directive instructing employees not to have radios on while taking customer calls. So one employee asked 'Well, can I wear my Walkman at least?' It became a battle just to get people to come in on time. (And if you think the schools in NYC are bad, the schools in Jersey City and Newark make NYC's high schools look like Oxford.)
(Call center employees are usually people who only complete high school. The NYC (and other cities) high school system is a disaster.)
Acutally, in NYC anyone who completes high school (as opposed to a GED ) in four years is college material. The problem is that most of them go to college. The other 60 percent aren't educated at all. Note that the once high quality NYC vocational schools are shutting down.
Part of NYC's problem is snobism. If you are not a collegiate scholar headed for a professional job, might as well be a welfare mother or drug dealer, for all the respect you'll get. Thank God for the immigrants, who do all the other jobs. This attitude is not as bad on Staten Island as elsewhere in the city.
If by NYC snobism you mean Manhattan snobism, then I agree with you. But maybe your off on a bit your last point. Too many 'outer' borough residents do not value even a good high school education. The kids who don't finish high school are doomed. And non-college bound kids graduating from all but the specialty high schools like S.I. Tech are not much better off. Do you think New Dorp High or John Jay High is turning out employable motivated students? We've hired a few clerical people out of the public high schools and it's like they never went to school. Employers way larger than us have known this for years which is why many entry-level type jobs have gone away. I don't expect loyalty from my employer either, just keep the stock options coming.
And non-college bound kids graduating from all but the specialty high schools like S.I. Tech are not much better off. Do you think New Dorp High or John Jay High is turning out employable motivated students?
New Dorp HS? I thought that was located in a pretty decent area, where you'd be likely to find good students.
The area is decent but the students are your typical disinterested cretins. A NYC public school is an NYC public school.
Don't feel too bad. Ihave a relative who graduated Laurel[Montana] high school and average 2 F's a term at end term, never took a make up course, etc. Laurel is over 99% white, generally a middle class town but enough welfare too. This person didn't even have to take half of the courses I did years ago that were honest learning courses. Don't worry they give you as diploma just for being there 4 years.Then again, with a bare minimum of attendance. Don't seem to matter where you go. By the way out of 14 graduating honor students 12 were girls. Is that the state of most young males in the USA?
It's also number one on the 'busing' list. Number 2 being Tottenville, which would otherwise be all-white. My sister went to Tottenville. She came out not being able to pass the CUNY math and writing assesment tests.
And I get shouted down around here when I point out things like this.
-Hank
And I always though Tottenville was a much better school. Ever drive by NDHS at 3:00 o'clock - scary, and most other NYC high schools make NDHS look like Harvard. The public high schools were awful 25 years ago. Why is anyone suprised that they've gotten worse? I live a few blocks from S.I. Tech and those kids are great. Never a fight or any other problem. And the S57 picks them up right at the school - since were on a transit website I might as well throw that in.
I'd say that's a very Republican-like thing to do, except that Barnes & Noble's CEO is a major contributor to both the local and national Democratic Party. Perhaps Hillary or some of the City Council members should go have a talk with him about saying one thing and doing another.
same loyalty as any US based firm sending factory work either to a "right to work" (for peanuts) state or worse a 'developing country. Economic treason say I.
Sad indeed but the US consumer played right into their hands with the never ending desire for more toys and lower prices. And also sadly it has created an economy here with so many more professional, higher ed jobs some of which wouldn't exist if it weren't for our messed up society.[Send me an e-mail if you want the rest of my thoughts]
Meantime the cost of those things soared and there is a very small class in between of non-professionals; most of the new service jobs are low income.
Not everyone can or should go for 5-7,8 or whatever years of higher education, some shouldn't be in college at all. Many do belong there, yes. But unfortunately most of the jobs not needing college that payed anything have left the country or been automated. Likewise the unions, they were a mixed blessing but gave a lot of people the means to give their children higher ed.
Automation has been with us for centuries. 100 years ago, the population was smaller and there were more jobs because there were less machines. If automation is so bad, why, with the larger population, has the unemployment rate not skyrocketed?
Good question but we were throwing the same situation around when I was a senior in Taft HS in 1960.Guess the world will turn and humanity will survive.
And this thread relates to subways...how?
It is something of a stretch, but... It relates to the previous threads on TA procurement from companies in NYS, such as Bombadiere. Well, sort of.
It's somewhat of a stretch, if you are only interested in this board for technical information. If, however, you treat this board as a discussion forum for the broad topic of transit in general, you can't help but to delve into economic issues, which are closely related to transportation in any given locatlity, and thereby valid in relation to the topic of "mass transit." In other words, it is all but impossible to discuss the role "subways" play without mentioning "jobs," and this thread indeed relates to previous threads in that regard. Even though this forum may not have been meant to become this broad, it has, and I think it's only natural.
OTOH, if this aspect of the board does not interest you, you needn't participate in those particular threads. There are many of us here on SubTalk, and I know of not all of us have the time (nor modem speed) to read every thread, as much as we may wish to.
And you were appointed netcop when?
-Hank
New York City (its government, not its people) is notorious for looking upon "its" businesses, who do business all over the country and/or the world, as its personal preserve to be milked for jobs and, especially, taxes. This is one of the historic reasons (good or bad) that the "Eastern Establishment" is hated in much of the country.
Don't you think people in other areas, who generate a lot of the profits for NY-based business, and who don't have NY's political and financial muscle, need a deserve a good day's pay for a good day's work?
More enlightened is Microsoft who, though based in Washington State, spreads their work all over the world.
Peter you said a mouth full there. The bottom line not just for Barnes & Noble but any corporation is the almighty dollar. Oh and lots not forget the shareholders over at Wall St No loyalty for the employees or this country.
Welcome to the real world of business. My company has a number of these centers for our different divisions. They are in Mississippi, Illinois, Oklahoma and Texas. Notice none are on the coasts or in New England. It's not even the wages that's the issue as for these kind of low-level jobs the salary range isn't that great. Call centers go where the rents are cheap which precludes many urban areas. Another problem in urban areas is the attitude of employees. We had to close our Jersey City location for this reason. Granted no one gets rich answering customer inquiries all day but a job is a job. Experience has shown industry that these kinds of jobs are more suited to areas outside of the cities. But there are exceptions - our Mississippi location get's the most complaints from customers regarding poor employee attitude, maybe it's the humidity.
Call centers go where the rents are cheap which precludes many urban areas. Another problem in urban areas is the attitude of employees. We had to close our Jersey City location for this reason. Granted no one gets rich answering customer inquiries all day but a job is a job. Experience has shown industry that these kinds of jobs are more suited to areas outside of the cities. But there are exceptions - our Mississippi location get's the most complaints from customers regarding poor employee attitude, maybe it's the humidity.
I've heard that a number of US companies have been establishing call centers in Canada, particularly in the Maritime Provinces. Partly it's the low cost of real estate, but in large part it's due to attitude. Canadians are, after all, known for their politeness.
And the Maritime Provinces are poor compared to the rest of Canada which makes it's residents thankful for these jobs.
Their warehouse is just off the NJ Turnpike in Cranbury. My Grandmother moved there, it was all farms, and senior residences. Now there are warehouse sprouting up everywhere.
-Hank
I am unsure if this is a normal thing, but the last time I was on the 7, I saw a 7 Train say Special to 74th and Broadway. I took it, and sure enuf it Terminated at Bway!!!!. It used 61st street to turn back to Main street, in service. Whoa!!
Is this somewhat usual or do u guys think this was tower ordered?
Did the rollsign actually say 74th/Broadway? I've never seen it while scrolling various IRT rollsigns (but for the ones its probably on, South and bulkhead, I haven't seen the whole thing).
I was over in JR Music World this lunch hour. There are a bunch of posters with covers of recent albums as you walk up the steps. A Bon Jovi poster caught my eye, and if it's not mistaken the band was standing on a subway platform.
This is interesting to me for a couple of reasons. First, after a few generations in which driving a car was "cool" and riding mass transit was not, things seem to be changing. Most people -- especially most young people -- are manipulated by images rather than deciding how to live for themselves. You've had the multi-billion dollar advertizing campaign for the auto companines establish a negative image of transit over decades. But a lot of under 35ers seem to be coming up with a positive -- if not OVERLY idealized -- image of transit for themselves.
Second, isn't Bon Jovi from New Jersey?
Just a small matter of interest on album covers: back in the 70's a group called BT Express had an album cover on the Nostrand/Atlantic elevated station of the LIRR, with an M1 train arriving.
teens haven't embraced transit per say...buses are still mass "scrubby". But older rail systems are chic. The NYC subway is the chicest of all, you can't hardly find a rapper who doesn't mention it in at least one of his songs ("Jay-Z", who has had several radio hits including "Big Pimpin'" took his name from the Skip-Stop service on the BMT trains of the same name). Doesn't matter if it is heavy rail (like chicago) or light rail (like SF), it is the older rail systems
I'm 35, and I feel the same way. Historic urban rail is my fave. New York rules, but I also like Moscow, Chicago, London ...
I think some of the recent coolness of the NYC subway is attached to the ever-wider spread of hip-hop culture, which (as mentioned) makes icons of many facets of urban life.
But I think it's also part of the general renaissance of New York City. The city's safer and cleaner and friendlier, and so are the subways that help define it. They've always been cool, but now more people are brave enough to find that out.
By the way, though I'm a Queens native, I grew up in suburban northern New Jersey and now live in Jersey City. So I can tell you that no one is more fascinated with NYC and its unique features, like the subway, than certain people from NJ --- often people who glimpsed the city over the horizon for years as teenagers, longing to spend more time there.
Today, while riding on the Market Frankford Line, I was at the railfan window and the train was stopped at 2nd st. The doors had just closed when a passenger behind me knocked on the driver's cab door. He opened it and the lady told the driver that the AC was not on. The driver got out, opened up a pannel, and fiddled w/ the AC controls to try to get it working. I was conforted to learn that even with OPTO the driver isn't too busy to help out (at least ppl in the first car).
PS: Would this happen in NYC or are the drivers forbidden from getting out of their cubicles?
The AC is either on or off. If the car is hot, but all the breakers are on, there is nothing that I, as a TO, can do to fix it.
He fiddled w/ the breakers. Its still more than nothing.
But as a motorman, you can check and reset where necessary. (Make sure the handbrakes are applied first) :-)
Let's be real. If I get on a train that I'm taking down the road and I have a hot car in my position, I'm going to try and reset everything I can to cool it down, because I don't want to be uncomfortable. When I was a CR, I never could deal with the people who would ask me to turn the AC on a 95 degree day. Did they really think I kept it off in my car just to inconvenience them?
All the controls are in the cubicles. On the LIRR C-3s and NJT/MNRR Engine-hauled coaches, that's a different story.
I was walking the warrens under City Hall, Suburban Station and 15th St. Station when I saw an office for the Fraternal Order of Transit Police (yes I was also surprised they had their own Order). On the window was pasted an FOTP logo. It was a badge and in the middle were 3 objects: A gun, handcuffs and an M-3 almond joy car.
BTW: I also noticed that Suburban Station has its own barber shoppe and a pediatrist's office (in case you injure yourself running for your train)
"Suburban Station has its own barber shoppe"
It's funny, but as I was looking for a decent barbershop downtown (Chicago) the other day, it struck me that, maybe 50 years ago or so, every major public building (train stations, courthouses, department stores, hotels, etc.) and every large office building had a little barber shop in the lobby. But now, barbershops are not NEARLY as common in the same places, while little shops selling newspapers, magazines, gum, candy, cigarettes, etc. still exist almost as common as back then (though now many are parts of chains).
After long thought, what finally occurred to me what the difference was: shaving. Generally speaking, the vast majority of men shave every day, and that was even truer then. And in the days before electric razors, probably the closest and safest shave you could get was to have a barber shave you. While there were safety razors and I would imagine most men shaved at home, some men would prefer a barber's shave -- or would realize as they headed towards an important meeting that their five o'clock shadow was arriving early. :^) Now, with electric and disposable razors common, men have to go to a barber only for a haircut, and that's not nearly frequent enough to justify having barber shops so common or in such high-traffic locations.
Obligatory subway reference: the best and cheapest haircut I've ever gotten was in the barbershop in the mezzanine, within fare control, of the 42nd Street/Port Authority A-C-E station. I was heading from my hotel* to a meeting when I saw the $10 MEN'S HAIRCUT sign. I already felt I needed a haircut, but I was going to wait until I got back to Chicago. When I saw a haircut even cheaper than my neighborhood barber back home, I couldn't pass it up! It was a stereotypical barbershop, with three old guys, piped-in "mellow" (not swing) jazz music, and ancient barbering equipment. They seemed to be doing a good business, and only one of the three was available at any given time. Still, at $10 (I added a $2 tip) and Midtown subway station rent, I couldn't see how they stayed open. I haven't found a haircut as good OR as cheap, never mind both, since.
*Shameless plug: When in New York, stay at the Milford Plaza! Cheap, decent rooms, a block from Times Square, in the middle of the theaters, and practically on top of the aforementioned IND station.
>>> it struck me that, maybe 50 years ago or so, every major public building (train stations, courthouses, department stores, hotels, etc.) and every large office building had a little barber shop in the lobby.
....
...what finally occurred to me what the difference was: shaving <<<
John;
I think the decline of the barber shop can be attributed to 1964 when the Beatles arrived in the United States rather than the decline of barber shaves.
The safety razor was invented by Gillette in 1903, and the U.S. Army issued them to soldiers in WW I so they could safely shave themselves. My father who was born in 1903 told me that he never shaved himself with a straight razor but during the 20's, he would stop by the barber shop every day for a shave. The Great Depression of the 30's converted him and many others to the safety razor and doing his own shaving.
In the mid ‘50s I used to get a haircut at least once every two weeks ($1.50) and because I could afford it and I loved the hot towels on my face, I would usually get a shave ($1.00) with the haircut plus a tip ($0.35). That's just a shade over $74.00 per year. Most men got a haircut at least once every two weeks, but only a few would get a shave. Only a few (rich business executives and gangsters) would get a barber shave every day.
Now I wear a full beard (which I trim at home with an electic trimmer), and have an extremely wide center part in my hair, and go to the barber about four times a year. The haircut with a beard trim costs $10.00 and I leave a $2.00 tip. That is $48.00 per year. In spite of inflation, I am paying less now than 50 years ago for barbers.
Others may not be as extreme as I am, but the long hair that came in the 60's and 70's had to greatly reduce the income of the neighborhood barber. The ones with business savvy became "hair stylists" and charged $40.00+ for a haircut, but the real income of the traditional barber went way down. Cutting hair is labor intensive. And as men got haircuts less often with the longer hair styles, there was an excess of barbers which meant that competition kept the prices below the rise in inflation. This caused a decline in the number of people who wanted to go into barbering. (Fathers would tell sons to go into another line of work), and eventually a reduction in the number of barber shops. I cannot remember when the last time was that I saw a traditional barber shop (as opposed to a fancy hair salon) with a barber under 50 in it.
Tom
08/22/2000
You know, that's ironic what you said about with the arrival of the Beatles in '64 changing men's attitudes towards hair. Nowadays the other end of the spectrum is taking place. Fully shaved heads are now the rage. With no hair to style, acquiring that "cue ball" look isn't easy. Also the very short closely cropped "do's" are also the rage with the younger set. Now we need those barbers!
Bill "Newkirk"
Frankly I'd love to have a long hippie haircut, but unfortunitly as my hair grows it expands outward in all directions like a fireball in zero gravity untill I have a puffball helmet head. My town has 2 barber shoppes right accross the St. from each other both with old guys in them. The shoppe in Suburban Station also had like 60 year old guys in it. I am seriously tempted to get my hair cut there the next time I'm comming home from school. The shoppe is right off the passage that leads from the concourse to the 18th St. entrance. I found it while searching for the entrance to BROAD tower. This might be an activity for the next SubTalk field trip to Philly. We could all get our hair cut in Suburban Station.
I cannot remember when the last time was that I saw a traditional barber shop (as opposed to a fancy hair salon) with a barber under 50 in it.
Here in Eatontown, New Jersey, the barbershop where my son and I go is owned and operated by a 40ish Korean woman, with who I assume is her younger sister as the second barber and two semi-retired Italian gentlemen in their 70s or 80s who man the other two chairs on Fridays and Saturdays. They specialize in military haircuts for neighboring Fort Monmouth but they do a decent job with mine as well, although I still prefer the haircut I get when I go home to North Carolina (one barber, three or four hangers-on, and who cares how long the wait is if the gossip is good).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There used to be a barber shop at 63rd drive, outside fare control but within the station. It was located next to a pool hall. Well, one day, the barber shop became a hair stylist (even lost the barber pole), and I think they're out of business now (I know the pool hall is).
It's not in downtown, but if you're looking for a good, honest-to-goodness barber shop in Chicago, head to Franco's on the west side of North Clark Street about halfway between Deming and Wrightwood (around 2550N or so in Lincoln Park). Best haircuts I've ever had, not too expensive, and Franco himself is a very friendly Italian guy. He was my barber for the whole seven years I lived in the Chicago area, and after every haircut he would ask, "You feel lighter, yes?" with a smile. I'm almost due for a haircut myself, but I'm waiting until I'll be in Chicago over Labor Day weekend so I can go to Franco's.
-- David
Boston, MA
Transit systems have been getting very aware of lawsuits and today subway stations are full of signs and other safety devices. However, most of the subway lines I have ridden let you pass between cars when the train is in motion. The most safety they have at the storm doors is a little sticker that says "Please don't pass through". The new M4 cars let you pass through, PATCO cars let you pass through, even BSL cars w/ transverse cabs are set up to allow passage through when not at the end of a train. I have no problem w/ passing through and I hope we can do it forever, but with a death last week of a guy riding b/t cars why haven't TA's notice this big lawsuit hazzard? Is there some federal safety law that requires an emergency exit in each car that can be used while the train is in motion? Is it for transit police to be able to patrol an entire train? It is for subway workers to fix problems on the road? Why don't the transit systems lock these doors or put something on them that locks when the train is moving? Are there ary systems that DON'T allow passing through?
the 75' (R44 46 &68)cars in NYC keep the doors locked because of the sharp angles between cars on tight curves
A friend told me you can open the storm doors on the 75-footers when it is stopped in a station (happened to her once on R68 N's). I don't believe that and said they are always locked. I don't want to try to see if they are myself for fear I will gather grossly unwanted attention from the other people with nothing else better to do with themselves but stare at other people and be labeled "a tourist" (or something like that) if the storm door don't open.
You are correct and your friend is incorrect. The doors are
always locked, except when unlocked on the entire train by the
motorman or conductor (this is only supposed to be used to
evacuate the train).
Let's see. Baltimore MTA and WMATA lock the end doors on all cars, even between married pairs. Miami locks theirs, I believe MARTA and BART do as well.
I suspect systems that started before 1960 don't lock end doors between cars. If the system started after 1960, they do.
Baltimore/Miami and WMATA's end doors are hinged rather than sliding. That may have been the factor that causes the locking policy.
The LIRR's M-1's and M-3's have hinged doors and they are always unlocked. Although it would be hard for collecting tickets if they were locked.
And getting to the bathroom. IE:
(Mmm, that bean burrito was great. Uh-oh! (doors close). What car is this? Let me see... 9-1-5-4! Damn it! "Conductor, what's the next stop?" "Brentwood." "And I just left Penn Station!! Aw, crap!)
I guess they have to let you pass through on the #1 (at South Ferry) or the #3 (at 145 Street) so that those who ride in the wrong car can get out.
Chuck
They even open the transverse cab for you (unless you get a demented sonofabitch who yells at you: "What, you don't speak English? You didn't hear my announcements?" "I stayed back on purpose." "Why, just to piss me off? You like f**ing with the conductor?" "No, see those 10-20 people behind me, with strollers and children? I stick behind to tell them about this little arrangement so they don't go around the loop, get off at Rector, see they can't cross over, get the next train, go to Cortlandt, haul their kids and strollers up and down stairs, get a third train, all to get here." Conductor shoves one foot into mouth and unlocks cab doors.)
And if you want a really scary idea, go to Toronto. Their cars do NOT have any kind of locking device on the storm doors, so ther is absolutely NOTHING to stop you from open the rearmost or frontmost door and stepping off the train while it is in motion.
Hard to believe. I guess people in Toronto are smarter than here.
Hey, they must be. Look at all of those movie producers that they convince that Toronto is NYC.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sheesh, don't you think they could do something really high-tech such as jamming a 2x6 against the handle the way they used to on the BMT standards? OTOH, maybe common sense is still practiced in Canada.
And if you want a really scary idea, go to Toronto. Their cars do NOT have any kind of locking device on the storm doors, so there is absolutely NOTHING to stop you from open the rearmost or frontmost door and stepping off the train while it is in motion.
Are you sure? I was in Toronto last week and gave an inadvertant pull on the door handle at the front of the train; it didn't open. There are signs on each one telling you it is unlawful to pass between cars.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was in Toronto this past weekend. The "railfan window" doors are locked.
David
Perhaps they finally wised up. When I was in Toronto for the Rail Rodeo in May '99, the T1 cars had no locks on any of the storm doors. The only reason it stuck in my mind was because I was just transferring divisions here (from the a to the B), and was dealing with the door lock system on the 75'ers. The T1s being somewhat similiar, I asked the TTC Instructor about them, and got that funny stare along with
"Why lock them? There's a $53 (Canadian) ticket for opening them up."
Mike, are you sure about PATCO? I thought they kept the doors locked. I know they don't mesh around the tight curves (i.e. Broadway-City Hall, Bridge-8th, 8th-9th/10th).
I've recently tried the handles and they open. I have never seen anyone ever use them, but on the field trip one of the guys recounted how when PATCO trains are packed he will jump b/t the cars and enter through the storm door. Also once when I was little I was riding the train w/ my dad and we were at lindenwold and out train went out of service w/ us still on it and my dad grabbed me and we ran back through the train via the doors trying to stay even w/ the playform and attract attention.
A few years ago someone sued the NYCT because she was slashed and robbed in an R-44 A. She ran for the storm door and found it locked, could have escaped. Nobody's going to wait for an R-38 (or the rare 32) in the middle of the night, with 20 minute headways.
Over the weekend, work was done to remove the metal dropped-ceiling from the Newkirk Av station (D/Q), a favorite place for pigeons.
This is a few weeks after I read comments here on how this is the worst station in terms of bird crap on the platforms. Of course now there is no canopy protecting the riders from this. Take an umbrella!
You think that's bad? Check out the Southbound platform at Prospect Park on the D/Q/S Line at the 10-car marker. Oh boy! That must be the worst.
That's the...
running on...
's
perspective.
The underground sections of the Morris Park station on the Dyre Ave. line also rival Newkirk for amounts of birdsh_t ...
The entrance canopy at Columbus Circle (58/8 entrance) is completely infested with hundreds of pigeons and it is FILTHY.
I agree with your observations at Morris Park. It's a health hazard.
wayne
I think people must be more sensitive to birds and other city animals than they used to be.
In olden times you could buy not very tasty spanish peanuts right on the platform for a penny or so. Lots of these got fed to the pigeons that hung around and amused people by walking on and under the third rail with getting fricaseed. The same pigeons used to make it a habit to walk the rails and take off a split second before an incoming standard or triplex would have made them into bird jerky.
Whenever someone decided to give the pigeons something, a flock would appear out of nowhere to swarm the benefactor. No one seemed to much mind, in those days. It was like free entertainment while waiting for the train.
Current attitudes toward birds and other wildlife in the city seem like a symptom of modern urban alienation from nature, a phenomenum that shows itself in many other ways as well, such as eating the flesh of food animals but being unwilling to watch them butchered.
Current attitudes toward birds and other wildlife in the city seem like a symptom of modern urban alienation from nature, a phenomenum that shows itself in many other ways as well, such as eating the flesh of food animals but being unwilling to watch them butchered.
I agree with the first point, but as to the second, but do you think that seeing animals butchered would be a social improvement? It might make part of the population eschew meat, but it would only harden the rest.
I hadn't intended to make a second point. I'm not sure what second point you see in my post, perhaps support for a vegetarian diet? Although I respect the views of those who, based on their ethical concerns, refuse to eat meat, I neither espouse nor follow such a course. The "steaks-originate-in-the-meat-counter-at-the-supermarket" view of the origins of our food just seemed like a good example of the city dweller's disconnect from a certain aspect of the real world.
One of my favorite things in the deli is tongue. Some people don't eat it because they don't care for the texture. Others can't bear to think about where it came from. Imagine their reactions if they had to watch it prepared.
I suppose I shouldn't be so critical. All of us have things we find so unpleasant that we try not to think about them.
My Mother brought me up with an occasional Freirich's beef tongue. It should be served COLD, sliced fairly thin and served on New York style rye with Gulden's mustard and some cole slaw on the side.
wayne
My mouth is watering!
after looking and riding both products from Kawasaki and Bombaridier, i find them both impressive. bombardier for its build quality and ride and kawasaki for build quality and excellent announcements. however after looking at the exterior design and style of both, only one of the two carries on the legacy of the redbirds in its trait. my opinion is the bombardier. the two piece stainless steel-fiberglass front end mimics the redbird also the truck configuration has a redbird look though way more advanced. the kawasaki looks like a flat faced replica of its R-62 cousin via one piece fiberglass structure. however both styling cues are stunning and edgy! what you guys think? which one do you think carries on the legacy of the redbird?
NOTHIN can possibly carry the legacy of a redbird
.....other than a redbird itself.
Neither could possibly carry on the legacy of the Redbirds unless they had front end route and destination curtains AND railfan windows.
Not to mention a fox red paint job.
are there controllers from subway cars ( bmt standards ) available to be used for model train control after modifacation ? and if so how much and where can one obtain one ?
I have some from R-21's. Also R-44/46 P wire ones if you're interested e mail me. Brake valves too!
Ooo ooo!!! Can I email you too? :)
I wouldn't mind this as a distant project for a distant train set
Right now, I'm more eager to get me/my bike back on the road after an old man in a Mercury tried running me over last week :(
(And yes, I'm fine, it was only minor dammage, and hopefully next week it'll all be ready)
I haven't ridden the E in 2 weeks, but today I was shocked to see the majority of E trains now using R46's. Is this a permanent change? Personally, I like it, since I now use the E over the R, which appears to be the line the R46's are coming from.
Those R32s now appear inundated on the Broadway/Manhattan lines now (N/R/S)
I was on the subway today and saw alot of R46 E's on the Queens BLVD line, and some R32's now on the R. I wonder if this has to do with the weekend GO assignments or what.
Also saw what appears to be new cables being run in the tunnels on Queens BLVD. Must have to do with the new signalling system I guess.
The R's get R-32s when the moment the Weekend GO hits, whatever trains in the Archer Ave extension become Rs (mostly R-32, since that's still the E majority). I guess the rest of the Es retire to the yard or Qns. Blvd. express tracks. Come Monday morning, the R-32s in the yard go back to the E and whatever's in the Archer Ave Extension become Es (mostly R-46, since that's still the R majority). I can't explain how during the summer of '98 the E and R almost overnight swapped fleets, but that was probably an actual assignment change rather than random occurrence.(needed digital signed Es for those weekends with everything teminating at Roosevelt ave).
The 98 switch was deliberate because the R32 door mechanisms were being changed, and they were put on the less stressfull R line. The E line is now two-thirds R46, with half the R line going R32. I HOPE the R46's remain on the E, since I now use this line to get to work.
Hi Folks ,Lets see some R-32s on the F line for once. Im tired of seeing/hearing about them on the E and the R lines. A little change wont hurt. Regards, Tom.
They were running there as late as 1994. R32's on the F would make sense, because it's more crowded than the E and has the ablity to load/unload passangers quicker than R46 trains.
I actually associate the R-46s with the E and F lines, since they've spent so much time there. They're really good cars - as long as the door chimes are in tune.:-)
When I think of the R-32s, I immediately think about the N.
I also associate the R46 with the E and F. The most shocking moment as a railfan in my life was one day in November 1990, descending the escalator at 53rd. St and Lexington Ave, only to see an R32 F train. Until then, I had never ridden on anything else but an R46 on the E/F lines.
I rode an R32 F train from Broadway-Lafayette to Roosevelt Av on March 15, 1994. I should have written the car number I was on.
There are a lot of snow during the winter of 1994. R46s experienced braking problems so that some R32s move to the F line and E line had all R46 fleet.
Chaohwa
So that explains that car switch. February 1994 all I saw was R46 E's.
I had a similar experience on May 24, 1991 when an E train of R-32s pulled into Roosevelt Ave. What the..? How in the...? Son of a ... I boarded it, since I was headed that way anyway, and was expecting a green-over-green aspect at the scissor switch before 75th Ave. when much to my surprise, it was green-over-yellow. I thought, why are we stopping at 75th Ave. in the middle of a weekday? It was no big deal, since I would get off at 75th Ave. if the train I was on happened to stop there. BTW, did you ever notice how much bigger the I-beams are at 75th Ave. than at most other local stations?
I also saw a few F trains of R-32s during that weekend. I was on an F train a few days later (R-46s), and it did skip 75th Ave.
R46's are one of my favorite cars.
They're my absolute favorite cars running today, hands down.
Mines too!!!! (Even though I havent rode the 142 yet...)
3TM
The R46s are by far the majority of trains along Queens Blvd. these days. I'd rather there were more rollsigns myself. It's useful to be able to tell the E,F,G,and R froma very quick glance.
Andrew
Yeah but the big letter sign on the R46's front is alot easier than those little digital ones they use on the R32's.
You can say that again!
But there are very few front signs on the R46's. Only every 4th or 5th car has them.
The side signs are way more important in my opinion, since they're the only signs you can see from accross the platform. And in a delay situation (like there was this morning) where you're sitting on a crowded F train in crowded Queens Plaza station, it is very useful to be able to tell a G from an R in a quick glance.
Andrew
All R-46s in service are on the Queens Blvd line. Every one of them. The only time an in-service R-46 does not see the Queens blvd. line is the Weekend G and the night G and R.
By the way, can you tell I'm sick of them? Not a day goes by where I don't see an R-46! I can't avoid them! It'll drive me to madness if I don't get some variety soon! The R-32s are OK, but I'm starting to tire of them as well (unless its on the G or R). Give me some slants, R-42s, R38s, 68s, ANYTHING!
Too bad the R-10s are gone. They ran on the E 20 years ago for a time.
That would piss me the hell off!! I ride the E for 2 reasons, #1 - I can go to Union Tpke from Roosevelt Ave faster since it skips 75 Avenue #2 - the R-32's have the railfan window. They're not as good as the R-40 slants, but they're still good. I've seen nothing but those damn tin cans on the E line, that's the #1 reason I tend to stay away from the F if I'm not going to 6 Av or Coney Island.
That's funny. You're starting to get tired of R32s. It's funny because, well, check out your handle. :-)
That's the...
running on...
's
comments.
I could never get tired of the R-32s. It would still be nice if they could bring back the blue doors. And roller curtains on the bulkheads. And green backlit side destination signs. Oh well, I can dream, can't I?
And don't forget the straps. And the blue seats. In their original design, they were the most beautiful trains ever operated by NYCTA.
Yes, Budd outdid themselves on the R-32s. Too bad the TA didn't order even more of them.
I don't think Budd was capable of manufacturing more than the 400 they did. I'm suprised that Budd wasn't given the R42 contract, instead of St. Louis. I'm sure they'd have been made completely of stinless steel, and they'd last longer than the present ones.
Chris, 600 R32s were manufactured, nos. 3350-3949.
Thanks for the correction.
The R-32 isn't even my favorite car type (but quite close to it), but my favorite specific car in all of NYCTA is my handle.
Similarly, my favorite specific commuter car (and I almost chose this as a handle) is Bombardier Comet II #5135, since for years a drawing of it was in many NJT publications and ads, plus the TVM screensaver, and I rode that car on my way home from Baptism at 1 month old (I analyzed this from pictures). It also was transferred from NJT to MNRR, and soon it will be GOH'ed and renumbered. Yet, my favorite car type for NJT is the Comet IV, favorite car type of all is the newest MNRR shoreliner (strobe lights for door closing won me over).
I see, I see
That's the...
running on...
's
new views.
The R46 is my favorite car, and I wish the E line was equipped 100% with them. I'm glad the awful R38's don't venture anywhere near this line, and the last thing we need is hippos getting in the R46's and R32's way.
R-38 hippos? You mean the R-68s don't you? The 38s may have their problems, but slowness is not one of them, plus, going to the E would be a return home for the cars, since that's where they started in 1966-67.
Yes. My referrence to "hippos" was to the R68, which someone suggested shoud make an appearance on the Queens IND. I despise the R38 for other reasons.
BTW, the R68's DID run on the F line in 1987, at least for a while.
I don't want Hippos on Queens BLVD. One of the things I like about this line is that there are no hippos, and trains move along well. I could just imagine everything getting backed up behind one.
I was on the BMT 4th ave express in Brooklyn, once with an R68 and once with an R32, both N's. The "Hippo" was much slower, as the stations didn't fly by like on the R32. R68's definately seem slower, and for me, they are the trains to avoid.
The only 75 footers I'll ride in are R44's and R46's, no HIPPOS!!
I have probably missed a point in some posts a while ago in regarding why many subtalkers here refered to the R68/R68A as "Hippos". Forgive me if anything I say here irritates you, but I for one DON'T think they deserve that dishonorary title. They may run slower for several reasons, like congestion, emergency brake activation, transit workers on board, signal problems, weather, passenger on tracks, ...etc whatever. But it doesn't always run slow as real hippopotamuses do. I've rode both an R68 N and an R46 R in the 60th St Tunnel many times and either one can be speeding, and either one can be crawling, and that is not always the R68. So for it to be labeled as a slow and overweight animal while the other one is not to me is just pure crap. I know the R68s can speed along because I've been on them when they did. Judgement shouldn't be made on a few sampling of rides.
And just because the R32s shakes more doesn't necessarily mean that it runs faster than the R68s.
Yeah!!! You go Number7Rider!!!
That's the...
running on...
's
compliments.
Not to mention, on the Queens Blvd line, R46s can crawl plenty!
And if anything the R44s and R46s look more like hippos than the R68s any day! Of course neither one looks quite as hippo-ish as the slant R40.
;)Andrew
I don't think the Slant 40s look like hippos -- an anteater with braces, maybe, but not a hippo :-)
LOL
R68's arent slower than other 75 foot cars, but they accelerate at a much slower rate, leading to the "hippo" tag. I doubt an R68 on the E could reach it's top speed pulling out of Roosevelt Ave in time to hit that GT signal just east of the Elmhurst Ave station.
Personally I have no problems with the R68s. The important thing is to be able to get to your designation. And also at times when I board one it is too crowded that I have no place to hold onto. That's one instance where the low acceleration may be welcomed....
These people just "want" the R-68 to be slower and that affects their perception.
Personally, I want the R68 to be FASTER. Unfortunatley, it accelerates at the speed of an overweight slug climbing up a hill.
So for it to be labeled as a slow and overweight animal while the other one is not to me is just pure crap.
Actually, real hippos can run quite quickly when the need arises - much faster than a human. In fact, they cause more human deaths in Africa than any other type of animal.
SubFans are a passionate lot and we each know what we like and don't.
For me those big lumbering RailFan Windowless beasts (Hippo/R-68 and Rino/R-46) aren't my cup of tea. At over 6 foot they are very cramped inside too, BUT I'm glad we have a certain Supt. who's job it is to provide them TLC to keep all those commuters happy. Now my grandson on the other hand loves the strap hanger bar, as it is just great for gymnastic tricks. The BMT Man caught him in the act on the day we went to heypaul's open house, I made the mistake of showing to his mom.
Mr t__:^)
Well, of course the R32 is going to feel faster then the the R68. The R32 is a shorter car. The R68 is longer. I'm guessing that the R68 will be more calm and smooth. The R68s may seem and be a tad slower but not by much. If they were really slow, then I don't think NYCA can mix cars on lines like the N.
That's the...
running on...
's
oppositions.
But did you ever notice that When an R-68 N train is followed by
an R-32 or R-40 they catch up to it .Especially in off peak hours.
That doesn't necessarly mean it's slow. That may mean that there's a congestion on the line.
That's the...
running on...
's
opposition.
It's not that the R68 is slow. It's sluggish, requiring a lot more time to reach it's top speed. That's what makes the ride seem slower. The older cars accelerate much more quickly.
I'll offer that it's because with 8x4=32 doors per side, the R-68s load/unload slower than the R-32s with 10x4=40 doors per side. That's a 20% difference, and during rush hour, it can mean a lot.
That was the logic that originally brought the R-32s to the E line. It makes much sense.
We have a good example of that here in Boston too.
On the MBTA Red Line, there are two types of trainsets that are intermixed:
1500/1600-series ("#1" from Pullman-Standard) and 1700-series ("#2" from UTDC) cars, with three sets of doors per side. All of these cars can MU; they come in married pairs, and mixed trains are the norm.
1800-series ("#3") Bombardier [David Cole's favorites!] with four sets of doors per side. These cars cannot MU with the 1500-1700s.
During rush hour, the 1500/1600/1700-series trains load/unload slower, and the faster-loading/unloading 1800-series trains will catch up. All car types are 69'6" in length, and run in six-car trains (rush hours) and four-car trains (other times).
For more on the Boston fleet, see the NETransit Inventory Page
I observe that a lot of E train travelers (myself included) go to Penn Station to catch commuter trains and Amtrak. Is it also part of the logic to put R32 on E trains?
Chaohwa
I've seen mostly R-46's myself. God I would hate to see that happen! I prefer the E for 2 reasons, #1 - skips 75 Avenue so I can get to Union Tpke form Roosevelt in 2 stops #2 - Brightliners have the railfan windows in the front, unlike the R-46's. The latter would piss me off totally! Might as well bring the R-110B (as in B Division) cars to the E line!
When I do ride the E it is usually for the front window view, and part of me is dissapointed when I see an R46. It's also how I can tell an E apart from an F from a distance, but I get tricked when I see an R46. I think it's an F when it was an E!
It seems there are still more R32's on the E than R46's.
Has the E been pretty good about skipping 75th Ave. during middays recently? There were times when it would be switched over for no apparent reason, unless there was a delay on the F. Even F trains weren't immune when they ran express beyond Continental Ave. I was on an F train once during late morning, and it too got switched over and stopped at 75th.
I haven't been on the Queens line in a few years now, and consequently haven't seen the new connector in its present state. Something to add to my things-to-do list for my trip this October.
Many times midday E trains run local because of cars being sent to the Jamaica yard. After 10AM, the Manhattan bound E always runs local for at least an hour ...
You brought back memories of my days as a conductor on the E. We were rerouted over the local tracks from the Plaza to make express stops only [1966]; it was our last of 4 trips, after midnight, and my motorman must have forgotten we were past Continental, besides we went straight rail. We roared by 75 Ave, I gave him a stop signal on the buzzer and he tried to stop but only one car or two at the rear still in the station.Would take too long to walk my few passengers wanting to get off so I passed the highball. I'm glad they weren't too unhappy. At the end of the run my motorman admitted embarrassment.
The schedule for E's skipping 75th and Briarwood is WAY OFF! 7:30 to 7:30 my ass! Here it is, actually:
Starts: 6:30 Manhattan Bound, 7:45 Jamaica bound
Ends: 6:00 Manhattan bound, 7:50 Jamaica bound
Would it kill them to send ONE TRAIN local after 1:20 and 2:10 for people going from my school (Briarwood) to the J/Z and LIRR? And in the morning, how's about letting a few Manhattan-bound trips stop there, so people getting to Sutphin at 7:50 actually have a shot at getting there on time? Put them on a specific schedule, and this would be made known to all who require this service.
The first Manhattan bound express to skip Van Wyck and 75th Ave. leaves Jamaica at 6:07, so 6:15 is about right. They don't start running express Jamaica bound until after 7:30, because these tracks are used to lay up trains overnight and it takes time to clear them.
I'm shocked to hear that the E now uses R46s. I'm used to seeing them use those old Budd trains, but now I guess MTA wised up and are now starting to use new trains to provide a more pleasant riding experience. I'll look for them next time I'm in New York.
Well, just remember this: These R46s aren't coming out of thin air. They're coming off the R, and other than other railfans and myself I don't think many R riders are happy to see this. Plus, the people who get on at Lex thinking its the N...
Who is the genius who decided that NOW would be a good time to work on this vital switch? The slow speed restrictions here added 10 minutes to my ride home due to the congestion (oops, can't use that word, I meant trains in front of us). Wouldn't it make sense to hold off until next year when the F train can be rerouted thru 63rd. St, so no logjam occurs?
A railfan who favors "deferred maintenance"?
No, a railfan who favors intelligently scheduled maintenance.
That switch, rods, rails and ties are all shot. It needed to be replaced now. Why? Because trains pound over that switch 24/7. One train every 2 1/2 minutes in the AM & PM rush, one train every 3 1/2 minutes during middays, one train every 6 minutes evenings and one train every 4 minutes on weekends. And while this was being done, signal cable is being installed between 23/Ely & 36th St. This area will be controlled by Queensboro Plaza Master Tower eventually.
So far there are 4 movies that I know of that feature The Almond Joys:
1) Rocky
2) Trading Places
3) Renegades
4 ) Maximum Risk
Would anybody know other movies that feature The Almond Joys? I'm starting a collection. Thanx.
Not sure of the title of the movie, you may even have it listed, but there was one that had a fight scene with the AJ's approaching the tunnel from Spring Garden St., then when it was in the tunnel it switched to some scene from the Toronto subway. I almost just turned it off right there, but I kept it on just to see if my babies showed up again but it wasn't to be! And speaking of Canadian rip-offs (nothing against you peeps up north!), Rocky V, I refuse to watch ever again for putting a some bus under the Frankford El (the end of Rocky's big fight scene) that SEPTA had NEVER used as well as putting some cheap imitation of a SEPTA logo on the front of it. uuuuugh
Peace,
Big D
That was "Renegades" with Lou Diamond-Phillips, and you to noticed that NABI, and why did he jump off the roof when the train was approaching the tunnel? After all, it is an Almond Joy.
It wasn't AJ's but two big boo-boos in the movie Blow Out. One was Travolta taking the subway-surface to Penns Landing. The other was him taking an ex-Kansas City PCC (with the bicentennial scheme), which never ran in the subway.
Not sure of the title of the movie, you may even have it listed, but there was one that had a fight scene with the AJ's approaching the tunnel from Spring Garden St., then when it was in the tunnel it switched to some scene from the Toronto subway. I almost just turned it off right there, but I kept it on just to see if my babies showed up again but it wasn't to be! And speaking of Canadian rip-offs (nothing against you peeps up north!), Rocky V, I refuse to watch ever again for putting a some bus under the what was supposed to be the Frankford El (at the end of Rocky's big fight scene) that SEPTA had NEVER used as well as putting some cheap imitation of a SEPTA logo on the front of it, forgot what bus it was, possibly an older Flyer, which made me think they did that in Toronto also. uuuuugh
Peace,
Big D
If you want to hit closer to home, look at the scene in the original Pelham 1-2-3 when the conductor with the student arrives at Grand Central. You can hear the sound effects of an R9, along with the pneumatic door engines as the doors open as the trainer departs. That was not a disappointment.
The director M. Night Shayamalan is from Philadelphia, and it was the setting for his movie, "The Sixth Sense." Although there were no subways in it, the film made Philadelphia look great! (Maybe this director will become to Philly what Woody Allen is to NYC.) There was an interior bus scene. We never got to see the outside of the bus, so I have no idea if they were on SEPTA equipment or not, nor whether the route they were filming on was in SEPTA territory. Mr. Shayamalan is coming out with another film set in Philadelphia, again with Bruce Willis, so maybe he will treat us to some transit shots. Speaking of Bruce Willis, the movie "12 Monkeys" was set in Philly too, but I can't remember any transit shots in that one.
The bus they rode on in the Sixth Sense was definitely a SEPTA bus, It was one of the Suburban 3000-series Neoplan Transliners. I kinda thought it was but when I heard the engine I knew it for sure.
Peace,
Big D
In 12 monkeys I remember a scene under an el. But someone told me it was Baltimore.
I remember that scene too. But there weren't trains running overhead, were there? Also, I didn't know Baltimiore had any els.
Yes, we did, over Gulford Avenue from Lexington Street to Chase Street. Constructed in 1893 by the Lake Roland Elevated Railway, the elevated carried streetcars over the railroad tracks on Guilford Avenue. It was the first electric elevated in America, and lasted until March, 1950.
But was the scene in "12 Monkeys" filmed under that el? Were there any remnants of it left in 1995/1996 when the film was made, and are there any traces of it left now?
Unless the producers had access to a WayBak Machine, it could not have been filmed here, as the Guilford Avenue Elevated was torn down in April and May, 1950. Everything, including the stone approaches was removed. The only traces were the switches at Guilford and Fayette that were there, points welded, until Fayette was paved following the November 3, 1963 abandonment, and the matchbooks at a now-vansihed steakhouse at the corner of Lexington & Guilford.
Would not surprise me if that scene is another example of Hollywood Magic.
The 1982 TV movie "Fighting Back" starring Tom Skeritt and Patti LuPone. The trains are shown several times running along the el. Check it out. Great movie, too.
Joe C
Dear Transit Fans,
I am still searching for some other examples of other languages
used on the Train Platforms and Inside the car sticers. So far,
I know about: Emergency evacuation stickers, Canal St. Station signs
and South Ferry "You must be in the first x cars..." I would love
to find some more! Put on your thinking caps out there, please!
in DC the signage along the right of way Peligro Alta voltaje are bi lingual. And out west, in San Jose, the schedules for the light rail are English, Spanish, and Viet Namese
Hong Kong English/Chineese Singapore-English/Malay/Chineese
Do ads count? Every other ad seems to be a multilingual "LEARN ENGLISH!" As for the rest, a good deal of them are bilingual (English and Spanish), and there's a fair number of Spanish-only ads as well.
Mark
I can remember seeing signs [not stickers] on the South Bronx and other Spanish speaking areas stations saying NO FUME next to NO SMOKING. Also seing the door on the men's room at 110 or 103 and Lex saying men und hombres underneath. Likewise on the West Side when there were New York Central freight tracks saying in Spanish and English: Peligro: Seiscientos voltios.
My favorite bi-lingual (Spanish-English) subway sign was this sticker from the 1970's usually placed above the doors of subway cars (please forgive the spelling):
"La via del tren subteraneo es peligrosa. Si el tren se para entre las estaciones quedese adentro. No salga afuera. Siga las instrucciones de los operadores del tren o la policia".
Subway tracks are dangerous. If the train stops between stations, remain inside, do not try to leave the car. Follow the instructions of the train crews or the police."
I think that's the sticker subgrrl is looking for. If you know of any contact her(????)--think that's the one)
I am still searching for some other examples of other languages
used on the Train Platforms and Inside the car sticers. So far,
I know about: Emergency evacuation stickers, Canal St. Station signs
and South Ferry "You must be in the first x cars..." I would love
to find some more! Put on your thinking caps out there, please!
There are the "no smoking" posters found on some trains, which repeat the message in something like 20 languages. I suspect the use of all those languages is meant to get the point across in a lighthearted but ultimately serious manner rather than to assist non-English speakers.
Wasn't there a time where the "please keep hands off the doors" sticker was also printed in Spanish?
--Mark
Oooo, Mark, that's good. I'll try to find out about the "hands off
the doors" in Spanish. Thanks!
Not that I can remember.
It was "DO NOT LEAN AGAINST THE DOOR" on the left panel
and,
"NO SE APOYE CONTRA LA PUERTA" on the right panel.
It was in the mid-1980s.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can "see" it now ... black lettering on a white background .....
--Mark
On the Stainless Doors it was black on clear stickers.
"Do not lean against the doors"
later became
"Do not lean on doors"
and the Spanish version vanished
and all official permanent warnings went English only.
I still have one of those clear "No se apoye contra la puerta" stickers
Wado,
Would it be possiblw to get a picture of your "No se apoye.."
sticker?" I am trying to accumulate these images.
Where are you transit employees who are crazy enough to collect
subway car stickers? I'm sure that like most things you wouldn't
think to collect them until they were eliminated! But someone
must!!!
The Transit Museum is selling surplus stickers ... I saw a bucketful at the Court Street gift shop ....
--Mark
Thanks, Mark,
I'll check that out immediately!
Let's not forget the little black platform identifier signs which are also printed in Braille.
Yes, thank you Brian, I DO intend to use those Braille signs!
Path had the bilingual warning under the storm doors, the 'Via del tren es peligrosa' thing.
And the MTA puts out a multilingual map every so often, most recent is February 2K but I have the older style ones that have several languages, including: Legend (on front), (on the back) About this map, Subway Overview, The Cost of a Ride ($1.25 on the one I'm looking at), Traveling with children, Subway Entrances, Inside a station, Entering the System, Getting to your train, Train service, Off-peak subway travel, In Case of Emergency, Travel Info. In English, Français, Español, Deutsch, Italiano, and 2 languages not using our alphabet. It was arranged wonderfully, each language in its own section rather than having to skip over all the other languages to get to English again.
Car number 2842 had the window of its #2 end storm door kicked out by a group of some kids. Then they proceeded to go between the cars and smoke. They got yelled at shortly after by some big guy.
Maybe it's another Demolition post, but...
The 242st Yard on the homeline appears to be
hosting a worktrain with the physique of
an r-10 on the open-air tracks in clear view
from the el at 242nd Street.
And.. according to the MTA Website, all
Brooklyn bound ( 2 ) trains after 11:30pm
are being routed down to South Ferry
thru October....
now now.. talk about taking one back from
the TRANSVERSE-cabbed 1/9's.. W H E N was
the last time we got a railfan window
into South Ferry!!??
:)!!!!
Only two (2) R-10's exist. One (3184) is in Coney Island yard. The other (3189) is in Pitkin Yard. Both have been at the locations stated for the last 10+ years. And even IF they were moved...IF they were moved, How would they get to the 242nd Street yard? Last time I checked, The R-10 was an IND car and 242nd St is an IRT yard.
-Mark
It was either an R-12 or an R-14...
The car you saw was either an R12 or an R14, both of which are identical to R10's, but built to IRT specs. Railfan window views around the loop were readily avilable 3-4 years ago before the R62's were linkied into 5 car sets.
The 2s won't stop at South Ferry... I believe this has happened before (check out the first 1000 posts in the archive). The trains will go thru the station, thru the outer loop, switch to the inner loop, go to Wall St. (4/5), reverse direction, and go through the 4/5 tunnel to Brooklyn.
Remember the subway cars named the "" hippo"" & the ""rino"" ??
Well after looking at all of the pictures of the r-142s it they
remind me of this faviorite annimal that lives throughout texas I believe the state mascot..
& most of the southern states as well. Have you ever seen an armadillo ??( hope I spelled this right )
Yes the R-142 Amadillos!! To me thats what an R142 seems to me, looks like in & on all of various thumnails &
the pics I have seen on NYC subway resources all of the images too!!
Finally the inside ( interior ) does not seem to look "transit rider frendly""....a very BLAND & sterile looking feeling etc..
not comfortable looking at all!! maybe this will catch on The r-14s ""armadillos""!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
The R142/R142 "may" look like armadillos, in which I totally disagree. BUT those bad boys moved like freakin' cheetas! And you cannot deny that fact and the last time I rode it (2 days ago), it kicked the a$$ of a R62 leaving Grand Central on the (4) line. The question is salaam, all you've had are pictures, have you riden these cars yet?
To me, the interior asthetically pleasing, looks bright but to some extent pleasing to the eyes. It's just time for a new look. The R62/R68 class car is not all that transit rider friendly either with it's much colder feeling interior. I was actually able to sleep on a R142 from the pleasing interior and comfortable ride while being wide awake and about to be sick on a R62/R68 class car.
Come up here and ride these bad boys, then you can begin to appreciate the beauty that is called, THE R142!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
One can only imagine how the R-142s will do on the Park Ave. straightaway express run. We'll all find out soon enough.
Well, from seeing what those boys are doing on the (2) line express on 7th & Broadway, we are definately in for a treat when the hit the Park Ave straightaway on the (5) line.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
i saw them siting on what looked like an express track on the 5 near gun hill last march 2000 on a very cold night in nyc !!
remember the names hippos rinos redbirds etc??
to me the r-142s should have a tag also. ARMADILLOs .& what really do not like is the
transverse cab & no railfan window & no end gates (like the rino)
nothing personal just my opinion
R142s on the Park Ave. straightaway???
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, troops!
Gotta pass the 30-day basic training first.
thats right the r -142 looks like a TEXAS "" armadillo""..!!
Even though I fail to see the similarity, appearance-wise I know that the R-142s can roll with the punches....
Armadillos are an ancient symbol for "rolling with the punches." Some of them are able to protect their only unarmored area - the abdomen - by rolling into a ball.(courtesy Encylopedia Britannica)
Peace,
ANDEE
you have to admit andree that the r-142 does have an ARMADILLO look..
the interior does seem bland boring & rider un frendly to me ...
When did you ride the R-142?
Never?
I thought so.
you thought wrong !! march 2000 # 5 dyre ave .....!!!!
( sorry armadillos )...
You could not have ridden an R-142 in March of 2000, only seen one. Unless you work for the TA.
Peace,
ANDEE
one station heading north from gun hill ( hear that hank )
in fact i was asked if i would like to shoot a vidieo of this genuine TEXAS ARMADILLO of the rails however I declined & got off
when the railfan window as blocked !!
press passes vidieo cameras tripods & press equipment gets you into
places you would not believe ANDEE & HANK !!
So why are you just mentioning this now?
So, you're a liar now?
Who cares what it looks like, as long as "it do the job."
-Hank
(Those with reading abilities will know what that's from :)
sorry hank i rode it north from gun hill !!
now the details are something else !!...
Why didn't you take any pictures??
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd like to know, why after many a month of berating him for indiciting a car he had not seen for faults that may or may not really exist, he suddenly decides to tell us this.
-Hank
Im sorry but my two station experence back in 3 7 00 a car i did experence & see made me think of that funny little annimal the
"" ARMADILLO "" thankz hank !! salaam allah ...
Another thing doesn't add up:
In the message located at: http://astroland.nycsubway.org:8080/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=/mal/pirmann/htdocs/subtalk/101000:101020, posted on March 3, heypaul (the author) says that Salaam will leave tomorrow (the 4th).
Now, Salaam was not posting around this time, which adds up. But if everything mentioned was true, he'd be back home by the 7th (or at least along the way). This is similar to him being 50 years old with a birthday in 1951.
Remember, you are dealing with The Man with No Brain. Facts are immaterial, and easily discarded or modified to suit him.
IF (big IF) he has a birth date in the year 1951,then........
He's been in my Killfile since Dave made it available. Others come & go, but Salaam's there until SubTalk isn't.
mr dan lawerence is wrong my all of my 100% facts are straignt & they
are material ( the immaterial & discarded fit mr lawerence only )..
& since mr lawerence hids behind his killfile whats his relevant point
?????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am a proud ""yahkee"" born NEW YORK CITY HARLEM USA 11 03 51...
No mr lawerence hiding behind your killfile you cannot have a copy of
my birth certificate !!
Yes I spoke with mr ""Heypaul"" as he posted back in march 2000 on this forum
It is nice to see how well he spoke of me while i had no access to the internet & this sub talk forum or the time to find a library with internet access etc..
I was in my final days of shooting & the L & J tapes march 2000 was done sometime near that date before my return trip to the west coast.
the day before i rode the dyre ave # 5 rode the TEXAS ARMADILLO on local tracks one station only was bored to tears with the NEW JUNK!!
( I dont like the red line subway in los angeles marta atlanta etc..)
@ Please do not tell me what i did & did not do !!
& for the last time some of you hardheads should relize where valid press passes can take you to ( just because you do not know !)
Finally to me this is not a big deal just the way I see it the redbirds will be replaced with inferior new styrofoam junk the
R-142s TEXAS ARMADILLOS thankz salaam allah
But, why didn't you take any pictures in March???
Peace,
ANDEE
But, (once again) WHY didn't you take any pictures?
Peace,
ANDEE
Why waste a perfectly good roll
of film on something as harsh
looking as the "ARMADILLOS"?????
that's why south ferry i did not waste my time with shooting any video & film on this new refitted piece of styrofoam !!
""" THE R-142 TEXAS ARMADILLOS """"
couldnt wait to get off & ride a safe & sane & beautiful REDBIRDs !!
thankz salaam allah
That's why you're a charter member of the BSA.
-Hank
All I know is I recall seeing the term
"142" used in the same breath as "the
perfect subway car....for us redbird fans
to poop on".....and THAT is true.
I guess you and Salaam share the same brain. Luckily, you got the best parts.
-Hank
Why thank you!
However, with a last name
as nice as yours (which can
easily be viewed as "Einstein")
I'd take care to steer clear the
river... or atleast the mud.
...my regards to Jodi.
P.S. 7 was only some few long years ago.
hank... BLACK STUDENTS ASSOCIATION ?? ( BSA ) I am a card carrying
member here !! thankz . salaam allah
No, Bull Shit Artists. Any railfan worth his salt, when someplace away from home, with a camera, when they see something new or unusual, takes a picture of it. Doesn't matter what their persoanl opinion of it is. Lots of people hated the UA Turbotrain, but they took pictures of it because it was new and unusual.
Just continue to lie, we'll help you come up with excuses, and Pigs will continue to catch you in them.
Oh, You're a STUDENT? Sure as hell fooled me, considering.
-Hank
calm down nut .... I was there to capture the older equipment etc..
new glitter & gold is boring . you did not prove your false charges
of someone telling lies ( except maybe yourself ? )
taking pictures of some new railcar is not my cup of coffee...
the R-142 TEXAS ARMADILLOS look like the same b.s type of railcars
you see in atlanta los angeles bart san francisco etc ..BORING !!!
since there are so many nuts running after these new junks i prefer
to take the pictures of the soon to be retired fleet !!
OK mr Student ?? stop telling lies on other people ....
That's funny...about the R142 looking like all those 'other' subway cars. I always looked at an R42 and said "gee, looks just like an R29, only longer, wider, and cleaner."
I always looked at an R36 and said "Gee, it looks just like an R10, only shorter and with less doors"
I always looked at You and said "Gee, looks like his oxygen supply has been cut off for too long."
And I'm not the one proving you a liar. You're doing a fine job of that yourself.
-Hank
An R-142 is a redbird that looks shinier, cleaner and has a less busy bulkhead.
the only one proving yourself to be a liar is you ...
& the newer transit cars do look almost alike to me !! ( truth )
R10s R29s & R36s all look different (but you cant see the difference )...!!!!!!
@ do you have your oxygen tank at the creedmor mental hospital
where you post to subtalk from... hank ?? dont lie !!!....
Why do you keep using '@' when you mean to use '&'?
Just to make you happy, I post from work and from home, occasionally from the bus or a mall, depending on what day it is and where I am when I read the messages. (the wireless web is wonderful, but goddamn those big gifs!)
Apologies, as the R10/12 were the last of the celestory roof cars. The R14/15 and up are no different from any other subway car that has been built since then, or has even been proposed, with the notable exceptions of the Slant R40, R44/46, and R68. All the other cars look alike, with minor detail differences (ie, round windows, lack of bulkhead signs, and the addition of the large letter or number to the left front panel) The basic shape of the cars hasn't changed in 50 years, but the way they are constructed has. They try not to use materials that require constant maintainence (ie, paint) such as carbon steel. You can hack the front of an R17 off, and graft it to an R36, and no one would likely notice.
As to the oxygen not getting to your brain, I think I've figured it out. You have one of those old 70's rust boat gas guzzlers. You must have an exhaust leak! You need to get that car checked out. I dislike you somewhat, but I'd hate to see you dead.
-Hank
calm down nut .... I was there to capture the older equipment etc..
new glitter & gold is boring . you did not prove your false charges
of someone telling lies ( except maybe yourself ? )
taking pictures of some new railcar is not my cup of coffee...
the R-142 TEXAS ARMADILLOS look like the same b.s type of railcars
you see in atlanta los angeles bart san francisco etc ..BORING !!!
since there are so many nuts running after these new junks i prefer
to take the pictures of the soon to be retired fleet !!
OK mr Student ?? stop telling lies on other people ....
That's funny...about the R142 looking like all those 'other' subway cars. I always looked at an R42 and said "gee, looks just like an R29, only longer, wider, and cleaner."
I always looked at an R36 and said "Gee, it looks just like an R10, only shorter and with less doors"
I always looked at You and said "Gee, looks like his oxygen supply has been cut off for too long."
And I'm not the one proving you a liar. You're doing a fine job of that yourself.
-Hank
An R-142 is a redbird that looks shinier, cleaner and has a less busy bulkhead.
the only one proving yourself to be a liar is you ...
& the newer transit cars do look almost alike to me !! ( truth )
R10s R29s & R36s all look different (but you cant see the difference )...!!!!!!
@ do you have your oxygen tank at the creedmor mental hospital
where you post to subtalk from... hank ?? dont lie !!!....
Why do you keep using '@' when you mean to use '&'?
Just to make you happy, I post from work and from home, occasionally from the bus or a mall, depending on what day it is and where I am when I read the messages. (the wireless web is wonderful, but goddamn those big gifs!)
Apologies, as the R10/12 were the last of the celestory roof cars. The R14/15 and up are no different from any other subway car that has been built since then, or has even been proposed, with the notable exceptions of the Slant R40, R44/46, and R68. All the other cars look alike, with minor detail differences (ie, round windows, lack of bulkhead signs, and the addition of the large letter or number to the left front panel) The basic shape of the cars hasn't changed in 50 years, but the way they are constructed has. They try not to use materials that require constant maintainence (ie, paint) such as carbon steel. You can hack the front of an R17 off, and graft it to an R36, and no one would likely notice.
As to the oxygen not getting to your brain, I think I've figured it out. You have one of those old 70's rust boat gas guzzlers. You must have an exhaust leak! You need to get that car checked out. I dislike you somewhat, but I'd hate to see you dead.
-Hank
calm down nut .... I was there to capture the older equipment etc..
new glitter & gold is boring . you did not prove your false charges
of someone telling lies ( except maybe yourself ? )
taking pictures of some new railcar is not my cup of coffee...
the R-142 TEXAS ARMADILLOS look like the same b.s type of railcars
you see in atlanta los angeles bart san francisco etc ..BORING !!!
since there are so many nuts running after these new junks i prefer
to take the pictures of the soon to be retired fleet !!
OK mr Student ?? stop telling lies on other people ....
That's funny...about the R142 looking like all those 'other' subway cars. I always looked at an R42 and said "gee, looks just like an R29, only longer, wider, and cleaner."
I always looked at an R36 and said "Gee, it looks just like an R10, only shorter and with less doors"
I always looked at You and said "Gee, looks like his oxygen supply has been cut off for too long."
And I'm not the one proving you a liar. You're doing a fine job of that yourself.
-Hank
An R-142 is a redbird that looks shinier, cleaner and has a less busy bulkhead.
the only one proving yourself to be a liar is you ...
& the newer transit cars do look almost alike to me !! ( truth )
R10s R29s & R36s all look different (but you cant see the difference )...!!!!!!
@ do you have your oxygen tank at the creedmor mental hospital
where you post to subtalk from... hank ?? dont lie !!!....
Why do you keep using '@' when you mean to use '&'?
Just to make you happy, I post from work and from home, occasionally from the bus or a mall, depending on what day it is and where I am when I read the messages. (the wireless web is wonderful, but goddamn those big gifs!)
Apologies, as the R10/12 were the last of the celestory roof cars. The R14/15 and up are no different from any other subway car that has been built since then, or has even been proposed, with the notable exceptions of the Slant R40, R44/46, and R68. All the other cars look alike, with minor detail differences (ie, round windows, lack of bulkhead signs, and the addition of the large letter or number to the left front panel) The basic shape of the cars hasn't changed in 50 years, but the way they are constructed has. They try not to use materials that require constant maintainence (ie, paint) such as carbon steel. You can hack the front of an R17 off, and graft it to an R36, and no one would likely notice.
As to the oxygen not getting to your brain, I think I've figured it out. You have one of those old 70's rust boat gas guzzlers. You must have an exhaust leak! You need to get that car checked out. I dislike you somewhat, but I'd hate to see you dead.
-Hank
Remember when Bill Newkirk put in a kind word for him, so he decided to call him ""mr hank"" and insult him?
That's not the first time he confused you. I can't imagine how he would, unless he can't tell apart people just like he can't tell apart trains or dates.
im sorry folks but you cant please all of the people all of the time
thanks for your opinion now you have mine ... thankz...
You can't please all of the people especially if you think they're all one person.
Actually, if you think all the people are just one person, it gets pretty easy to believe you've pleased them.
-Hank
the two posts before this one made no sense at all...
& I thought you two posters were the experts in this subtalk stuff !!
the two posts before this one made no sense at all...
& I thought you two posters were the experts in this subtalk stuff !!
the two posts before this one made no sense at all...
& I thought you two posters were the experts in this subtalk stuff !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
( CHECK OUT MY NEW DIGITAL PHOTOS & THE ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM PICS )
!!!!
They make perfect sense to sensible people.
-Hank
Thats right you are the ultimate EXPERT judge jury & ""hangman""
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
So now you say that I judge people?
Oh, and your posts rarely, if ever, make sense.
And if you're hitting the shift key, you only need to hit the quote key once.
-Hank
Hank !!..there is an old saying i learned while building the marta north stations & the construction site there. This is to to you mr eienstein. ( excuse me good subtalkers for my slang here )...
..all due respects "" opinions are like assholes everybody has one""
did i hit the shift key right this time ?? ( smile )....
With all due respect, you prove that on a daily basis.
-Hank
[With all due respect...]
LOL
hank !! how is your ""pet TEXAS ARMADILLO "" ( r-142 ) doing ??..
also do you have a permit to own run & operate that thing in nyc ??
the two posts before this one made no sense at all...
& I thought you two posters were the experts in this subtalk stuff !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
( CHECK OUT MY NEW DIGITAL PHOTOS & THE ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM PICS )
!!!!
They make perfect sense to sensible people.
-Hank
Thats right you are the ultimate EXPERT judge jury & ""hangman""
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
So now you say that I judge people?
Oh, and your posts rarely, if ever, make sense.
And if you're hitting the shift key, you only need to hit the quote key once.
-Hank
Hank !!..there is an old saying i learned while building the marta north stations & the construction site there. This is to to you mr eienstein. ( excuse me good subtalkers for my slang here )...
..all due respects "" opinions are like assholes everybody has one""
did i hit the shift key right this time ?? ( smile )....
With all due respect, you prove that on a daily basis.
-Hank
[With all due respect...]
LOL
hank !! how is your ""pet TEXAS ARMADILLO "" ( r-142 ) doing ??..
also do you have a permit to own run & operate that thing in nyc ??
You have no respect whatsoever for any new technology. If this is the case for everyhing, I wouldn't have a job as a designer! Any new subway car will have "teething" problems for a while, especially
with all the new gadgets on them.
Why don't you come back and take some pictures of the R-142's. You do a good job doing that!
Demolition post, Chucky..Why waste film?
Get 'em while they're new, when the Redbirds are razor blades and tin can automobiles, the 142'a will be just another NYCT Division A fleet.
[couldnt wait to get off & ride a safe & sane & beautiful REDBIRDs !!]
You must have some pretty low standards for what's beautiful because as everyone else on this planet knows, rust is considered to be UGLY!
And how the hell can a train be sane? It's not a living thing with a brain, which is the criteria for being sane or insane. But you, being the lame-brain that you are, couldn't possibly figure that out!
Touche, Pigs, Touche!
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, really
Peace,
ANDEE
Simple, he's a liar
Peace,
ANDEE
want he truth andee ??.... although it was at night etc...
( please excuse me ) it was too much like atlanta red line L.A etc.
"" I COULD NOT WAIT TO GET BACK TO THE REDBIRDS ""( railfan window )
hell I only had four days to shoot vidieo & still pictures at the same time... thankz salaam allah
>>>now the details are something else !!... <<<
You got that right!
Peace,
ANDEE
sorry hank i rode it north from gun hill !!..
now the details are something else !!...
LOL
Having actually rode on it I can tell you that it is quite comfortable.
Peace,
ANDEE
so does the red line in los angeles, MARTA in atlanta & all of the new
systems after BART etc.. but it just looks soooo passenger bland
& unfriendly ..
Looks can be deceiving,
Peace,
ANDEE
With the hospital-white interiors.. and the
chlorine blue seats (sure to charm the bluest
bee) and the lack of wallpaper (artistry or
mappings on the 2 pair) makes this quite the
perfect subway car........ for us redbird
fans to poop on!!!!!!!
I for one will be glad to crap on a brand new R-142 ""ARMADILLO""
im telling you folks if you go down to TEXAS and line up a string
of dead ARMADILLOS end to end you will have an exact SUBWAY MODEL of a
R-142 ..!!! REDBIRDS LIVE ON !!
Well, I think you need to come up with a better handle for them.
Hippos & Rinos are BIG lumbering beasts, with the Rino being able AND willing to move a bit faster. A Armadillo is a small armor plated animal, even the ones in Texas (ah something that isn't biger in Texas).
"Finally the inside ( interior ) does not seem to look "transit rider frendly""....a very BLAND & sterile looking feeling etc..
not comfortable looking at all!!"
Are you trying to say that the inside of a R-142 looks like the inside of a Armadillo ... sorry but I've never seen the inside of one and I don't think anything inside a R-142 is editable ?
How about a Zebra, it has stripes & is harder to tame then a horse ?
Mr t__:^)
a zebra relative to the horse has more class...
I am going to stick with the handle "" R-142 ARMADILLO""
thankz salam allah
a zebra relative to the horse has more class...
I am going to stick with the handle "" R-142 ARMADILLO""
thankz salaam allah
The tour was not forgotten. A date will be announced today. As soon as I know...You will know.
Mark tell me about this guy who calls himself "Pigs of Royal Island"?
Is he an ERAer?
What the hell is wrong with you?
What does this thread have to do with me and why do you think that Mark W is able to answer all of these things about me.
Congratulations, you're the second person in my killfile.
Good morning everyone,
I've been riding the subways for over 25 years now, but this has to take the cake ! Yesterday morning, while returning to Bensonhurst from a full night of work, my "B" train was sent express over the West End El. This was due to the traing being "extremely late", like, it's ever on time !
Instead of riding all the way to Bay Pkwy, and waiting for a train to take me back a stop, I got off at 9th Ave to wait for the next "local". While I was waiting, some gentleman in his 60's was trying to open the steel gate to get down to the lower level. I watched him, with amusement, waiting to see if he was a nut, or just really confused. There were some other people staring at him as well. He then calmly asked some women why the shuttle entrance was closed. "THE SHUTTLE?" I thought. This has got to be a joke. The women had no idea what he was refering to. I went over, and asked him where he needed to go. He claimed his mother gave him train directions to a doctors office, and he had to take the Culver Shuttle to Ditmas Ave. !!! After explaining the shuttle's whereabouts, and finding out that the last time his mom was on a train, was 30 years ago, I showed him how to take the B35 instead. Can you imagine ! Where have some people been?
Anyway, has anyone ever witnessed a similar situation? Like, someone trying to get somewhere, or ride a line, that no longer exists?
JDL
Great story! What would have completed it in true "Twilight Zone" fashion would have been the man getting the steel gate open and getting down to the lower level. A few minutes later, the sound of a train pulling out would be heard and the man would be gone. de-de-de-de...
Next stop - Willoughby!
"You are traveling through a dimension not of sight or sound, but of mind....you are now entering......The Twilight Zone...."
-- Rod Serling
I would have definitely followed him. I would love to ride the train over the el ! Probably as smooth as traveling on air.
Umm, let's see...
A 60s-something man is sent to a doctor by his 90s-something mom via the subway to see a doctor, telling him to take the Culver Shuttle, which last ran 25 years ago.
She doesn't know there's no shuttle, he doesn't know there's no shuttle, but he knows enough to try to break through the gates where the shuttle used to be.
This wouldn't be the same guy who was trying to break into the Consumer's Park Brewery for a six-pack, was it?
This wouldn't be the same guy who was trying to break into the Consumer's Park Brewery for a six-pack, was it?
No, that was me (hic!)
Did he ask who was the current Miss Reingold?
He wasn't trying to break through the gate. The gate is iron. He was just pulling it to see if it would open. Actually, there are signs above the closed stairwells, which read,"Shuttle trains board here". These are fairly new, and have nothing to do with the old Culver shuttle, but probably indicate where to board the 36St "B" shuttle.
Oh, give the guy a break! You KNOW there was a Steel Train of AB Standards waiting to take the main to Ditmas Avenue. He heard the air compressor cycling.
--Mark
No, that was the express to Coney Island. He would have to wait for the 5th Ave. gate cars to get to Ditmas....LOL
Talk about your "Rip Van Winckle stories"!
I'm sure that one takes the cake!
(That guy probably thinks Nixon is still President!!!)
Doug aka BMTman
No he was wearing a I LIKE IKE Button
And he probably thought the Dodgers still played at Ebbets Field.
Poor lady also must have Alzeheimer's too....and her son must be from far out of town.....
Several years ago, there was a failed attempt at turning the old underground streetcar station at Dupont Circle into a food court. An elderly woman was getting very agitated while trying to find out from a security guard (who obviously wasn't even born when streetcars were around)"Where do I catch the #50? I caught it here all the time!" Several people tried explaining to her that there were no more streetcars, but she kept insisting they were wrong ("I was just on it not that long ago!"
The guard finally told her to go upstairs and take the escalator down to "the other platform" (meaning the Metro, where she could enliven the station agent's day). "Geez! You could have told me that five minutes ago! Now I'm sure to be late!"
It really makes you wonder where people can be hiding for 30+ years...
And he never returned, no, he never returned, and his fate is still unlearned.
He will ride forever 'neath the streets of Brooklyn,
He's the man who never returned.
(Sorry Kingston Trio)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Who? Sea Beach Fred?
08/22/2000
Maybe when explaining the 25 year demise of the Culver Shuttle service, you could have explained that Mytrle Ave "el" service was gone too. Maybe earlier in the day he was at Myrtle and Jay looking for the "el" and walked away in disgust muttering "what the hell is Metrotech"!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hell, I was ready to tell him where to catch the NX !
Yeah, and he should have also been told that LIRR service to Manhattan Beach no longer exists!!
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Better remind the poor man that the Park Ave. el was closed in 1899....so he doesn't get lost there as well.
Lest we not forget Jamaica El service to 168th Street :)
--Mark
Lest we NEVER forget. I propose that we all have a moment of silence on September 9th to remember this crime against humanity ...
I second the motion.
Not so unusual, until recently, my mother (who has not been on a subway in over 40yrs and lives in NJ) believed that the Lexington Avenue express did not stop at 59th St. I have since enlightened her.
Peace,
ANDEE
Anybody have any news whatsoever regarding the recent train operator test that was given to the general public? Was that a ploy to get the Union's attention in pre-strike threat talks or does the MTA actually plan to hire train operators off that list? Like to hear from anyone who may know anything. Thanxs
Heard today that the list is to be certified in October, with hiring to commence in November. Got this info from officers of the RTO division, Local 100, TWU.
Thanks John from Glendale (was very sad when the LIRR closed your Glendale station. Now I have to hope two wrong scores me high enough to be called.
I think you mean the conductor's exam. The results for the train operator exam did not come out yet.........
BM34x
Sad to say the news article I read that gave the story last year said the last test given as usual only to those in operating ranks had only about 10% of the applicants passing it..OK maybe more but it was a minor proportion.
I've always been a believer that motorman/TO/Loco engr. positions should only be available to those who have experience in operating. There have been exceptions, like the TA allowing bus operators to take it, and in my BN days taking non-ops into training program for political reasons or affirmative action [race, sex].
It's a sad state of affairs that people within the ranks can't study and use their experience to pass that exam but so it went and it was opened to the public. Geez I should have gone back for 5 years and worked there again until I'm 62!Then back to cow country.
I have a nephew who's been a career pen pusher who's on the list.
Ed;
How does this compare to the time you were a T/O ?
It is interesting to note an article that I read in the December 25, 1948 NY Times, page 28 about the training of motormen. It states:
Motormen start as platform men, then become conductors, after that yard motormen. The article mentions a 150 hour course of instruction, and to be a passenger motorman the yard motorman must know how to operate all types of subway cars.
The candidates for passenger motorman must pass a civil service exam which includes bringing a train into a station at 40mph and stopping within 20 feet of a given mark at least four out of six times. In addition the test requires that the candidate must locate a defect in a ten car train, isolate the car and cut it out of the train.
Each successful motorman receives his own serialized brake handle, reversing key and uncoupling key from the Board of Transportation.
Tom
Much the same. We were lucky, went right to passenger service after conductor training; saved me the boredom of being a platform man.I'd been told by some but won't swear to it that our acceleration right to road service was part of the poverty program by which the Fed's funded our training and we skipped the station duty period.Guess it helped the TA's pocket too because if trainmen weren't needed we'd have been either doing platform work or waiting to be called.. 1965.
As for the Motorman job it was changed so we had to take the "practical" before we were accepted into the training program and the rest was pretty similar. I had about 6 months combined training and yard service; then we had more training and student trips; and became road motormen[or road qualified properly]. BTW on the practical we didn't have to find a defect and isolate a car obviously we had no such training up to that time. Of courtse before we ever took a practical we had to pass the written promotion exam.
The facts is that originally, the TA wanted to merge the conductor's and train operator's duties into one train worker title. Because this is a drastic change in civil service hiring, a new title would have to be created, upon approval by both the TA and the TWU. The TWU for once, stood up and flat out refused to negotiate anything to do with this. This would allow the TA to save money by not having to hire both conductors and train operators, reduce training and give greater flexibility in assigning crews for work. This would also lock out certain employees from promotions; employees who would have certain rights to promotions through civil service exams, subject to the one- in- three rules. In retaliation, the TA held an outside exam to train operator and that is why for the first time since I can remember, it was held.
CNN is going to start a pilot program at three MARTA stations which displays the news to passengers. The article says that if it is succesful, then it might move into other systems around the country. The article didn't say it directly, but the new would be displayed via LED boards. There won't be any sound to it.
I personally think it's kind of stupid. How many atempts similar to this have been made, and how many have failed? I would rather see info showing when the next train will be coming in, and it's destination, like on BART. Now, if they do something like BART does, with thier LED signs in the newer BART stations, then I'm all for it. They display info for local events, then when a train comes, it shows what train it is, and how long the train is. If MARTA does the same thing, except display news instead of local events, then it migh work.
The article
Montréal has it on its trains - probably not furnished by CNN, since it was all in French, but news and entertainment headlines running on LED screens inside the cars. Toronto had something similar on the station platforms as well - that may well have been CNN.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how many t/os or c/rs have been let go since the drug testing policy came into effect?
I just read something about this subject. The number is very low (not suprisingly). The vast majority of transit people, especially those in 'Safety Sensative' positions, are professionals and take their responsibilities seriously. Unfortunately, the notoriety surrounding two very high profile cases would lead you to think otherwise.
Since I have been of the job I have a noticed a trend in this matter. Those who get caught on a random and given a chance to return after completing a program usually fail a random again within five years.
Usually its only a few knuckleheads who blow it and when given a chance blow it again.
I still do believe everyone should be given one chance (on a random), however if involved in any type of accident whether small or big you should be terminated period!
"however if involved in any type of accident whether small or big you should be terminated period!"
Apparently you are not fully conversant with the policy instruction related to drugs or alcohol. There is no "should" involved. If you test positive after an incident, you WILL be terminated with no chance for re-instatement - period!!
There have been a few operators in Mabstoa who were able to keep a job as a cleaner or property protection agent after some wheeling and dealing. Of course the accidents did not involve customer injuries.
I knew a fellow who's father was a big wig at Jay St. that was caught in randoms on several occassions that kept his job. Of course after his father retired he was caught a third time and fired.
Policy also states that anyone with less than a year caught dirty would get dismissed. However there is a young man who drove for me this year with eight months on the job who after some wheeling and dealing has gotten his job back.
Mr. Mabsota:
...however if involved in any type of accident whether small or big you should be terminated period!
Do you mean test positive for drugs, or test positive for their metabolites?
Do you mean test positive for drugs, or test positive for their metabolites?
For the benefit of the ignorant among us, what's the practical difference?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The difference is one of timing. If a test shows a given drug in the blood stream, you were on it at the time of the accident and presumably affected by it. If a test only shows metabolites, depending on the length of time it takes for them to clear your system, the test could be pointing to something that had no effect on you at the time of the accident.
(On the other hand, perhaps the TA should fire every employee who has bad judgment.)
(On the other hand, perhaps the TA should fire every employee who has bad judgment.)
The TA provides well paid, responsible jobs and ought to hire responsible people to do them. There are plenty of less critical jobs for those with bad judgement.
There are two test, one for alcohol and the other for drugs.
The number of folks who fail the alcohol test has gone way down, but we catch a lot of "recreational" grass smokers because it doesn't flush from your system for a very L-O-N-G time. One joint and they have to come and see us every week for years :-(
Mr t
(I have looked at books and this site for information about signals, so I have a fairly good handle on what they indicate. Now I am curious about their placement in the system.)
On the IRT Corona Line, Flushing bound, between 5th Avenue and Grand Central are a series of closely-spaced timers, which make the trip between these stations excruciatingly slow and choppy. They don't look temporary. What is the reason for these timers? It's not a long stretch where any dangerous speed could be built up.
Also, as the '7' pulls into Queensboro Plaza, Flushing bound, why is there always a red signal (might also be a timer of some sort) which causes the T/O to slow almost to a stop before proceeding to a final stop in the station? More than once I have let go of my hand-hold because I thought the train had completed its stop at QBP and almost took a tumble.
Well into the upper level of QueesBoro Plaza you have a Red over Lunar white. This is a timing signal and will clear (to yellow in this case) if the T/O keeps it at or below the posted speed.
This signal makes sure 7 trains in the curve into the station keep a low speed until at least half of the train is out of the curve.
There are curves out of Times Square into 5th Ave as well as a slight one into Grand Central. You also want Station/Grade timers here so you get the right lineup into the correct track at Times Square. I think they put so many there to give the tower operators some extra time to make sure they set the right lineup.
Now, what about the two red over white timers located on the Manhattan-bound track between Queensboro Plaza and 45th Road? I can understand the significance of the one outside Queensboro Plaza, with that curve, but what about the one outside 45th Road? The curve is not as sharp.
This is a GUESS, might have to do with the lineup for the express (center) track. I don't travel past Queensboro much (Mets games when the Yankees are there :-P )so that is my guess.
It assures that the train maintains the speed limit until the entire train has cleared the curve.
All these curves you mention have speed limits of 15 MPH as posted by fixed signals. These grade time aspects were in place before the field shunt modifications were done to the R36 fleet, so theroetically, you could whiplash a load of people in the rear cars without an enforcement of slowing the trains down. Although the curve entering Courthouse Square isn't as sharp as the adjacent track northbound, imagine a train entering the station from QB plaza at almost 35 MPH. Wouldn't be fun, would it, to solicit the hookers from the railfan window?
I get "whiplashed" on the 'N' approaching the Manhattan-bound platform at QBP almost all the time, since I usually ride in the last car. The centripital force is enough to almost lift you off the ground -- you really have to hold on tight. I guess there's no timer there, but by the reasoning in this thread, it seems there should be!
Also, getting back to the '7': If there's a problem with the speed on the curve into QBP, why can't a constant speed be maintained around the curve, instead of going too fast up to the red-over-moonlight, almost stopping, and then proceeding, after a strong jerk, the rest of the way into the station?
I have to make mention that the grade time signals beside enforcing speed limits are not always effective as they require the trust that the train operators obey the fixed signals involved as well. The old timers know if a curve is too sharp where he/she can resume normal speed but newer personel are taught to read just the signals. There are no physical charactoristics (P.C. as in railroad training), taught to new personel in the TA. They only get one day of training per line before they are deemed qualified. Now, if you are leaving the Courthouse Square station Flushing bound, you will notice a fixed signal indicating 15 MPH, as well as entering QB Plaza. Therefore, when the "red/White" aspect two cars into the QB plaza station clears to green, the actual speed limit from 45th Rd to the stop at Queensborough Plaza up to the 11 car marker is 15 MPH. This is because a resume speed sign, the green background with an "R10" or an "R11", depending on train length, indicates that the ENTIRE train has leared the speed restricted area. To solve the whiplash problem you have mentioned, there are two solutions. To add extra grade time signals, which does slow the train down but doesn;t prevent it from speeding up until approaching the next grade time signal, or the more popular approach of the wheel detection system. This system places sensors on the roadbed which detect the actual speed of the axles passing the sensors. When an overspeed is detected, the signal tripping system places the train into emergency. Take for example, since you like mentioning the 7 line and I currently am employed there, the grade time setups leaving Vernon-Jackson southbound through the Steinway Tubes. You leave on a green automatic, then around the curve, you have the grade time approach, GT 30. 5 hundred feet south is your "yellow/S" which should clear if the train is going at or under 30 MPH. The next grade timer is located almost a thousand feet away. Here there is no prevention from your operator from exceeding 30, in some cases nearing 45, and then jamming on the brakes after passing the "yellow/s" just north of Third Avenue interlocking. As long as the train does not pass the Red signal, red because of the overspeed of the "yellow/s", there is no speed enfocement here. Wheel detectors, noted by a flashing or steady lunar light with a "WD" fixed signal enforce the speed limits regardless of any automatic signals, grade timed or not.
Thanks for a really good explanation.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thank you for the compliment!
There is very little PC training (that's Physical Characteristics,
not Political Correctness, Personal Computer or, well, HEH HEH HEH)
as evidenced by the slew of "Know Your Lineup" color signs :)
There is evidently also, and EngineBrake and TPP...R46 can confirm
this, not much training on how to operate a train smoothly.
I'm horrified at the high percentage of train operators who make
every station stop with 70 pounds of air! Likewise, the fine art
of playing the timers seems to be vanishing, even though in theory
it should be a piece of cake, what with your speed digitally indicated
right there in the cab.
Yeah, I'll confirm that we don't get time to learn smooth operation either. I had to learn all that on my own but I have to add that it is all in the desire in one's self to do the job right. I have found few superintendants who will compliment or criticize one's operation in the subway, while in the railroads, the coffee cup filled with water or the apple on the dashboard determines whether or not you keep your handles. I take pride in my operation, as does Eric. We worked the same train from time to time and I had fun doing so. We hit almost 60 in the Rutgers but on the same hand, didn't run a second ahead of time. Why? He takes pride in what he does. I learned to operate the crappiest equipment. Mixed steel and comp brake shoes, dynamic with inshot, dynamic without. I made the best out of the worst. Todays equipment is far better than yesterday's; there is little excuse to slam on the full service. This poor operation will be the TA's next excuse as to why ATO and CBTC is "necessary".
Could you please define/explain "Inshot" for me and the other techno-ignorami?
What I meant by dynamic with inshot, dynamic without goes back to the days of the old R10 and cars in that era, equipped with an inshot air valve. Inshot air was about 7 to 9 PSI, to start, of brake cylinder in addition to whatever dynamic brake you had set up during braking. It was generally set up at any time the brake valve was set in a service braking range. This would allow greater control of the train, as you would already have the shoes against the wheels during certain critical conditions. These conditions include emergency applications, dynamic brake fadout which occurs on all cars when the traction motors are spinning too slow to generate the current to support dynamic brakes, as well as for smooth operation when releasing the dynamic on the fly. You can notice the jerkyness on R44 cars when an operator applies or releases the brakes for timers in a rivertube. Having shoes on while fanning the dynamic circuit dampens the whiplash effect to a point barely noticible. Inshot was removed for the flat wheel syndrome of the eighties when most cars scrapped their cast iron brake shoes over composition shoes. J relay modifications came next and now we are in a state where most operators do use near a full service brake for station stops. Not entirely their fault either. There was a Daily News article about one year before the Williamsburg Bridge collision stating the brakes on the ENY R40/R42 cars took 396 feet to stop in emergency from 30 MPH. In my opinion, they were the worst braking trains I have ever operated and there exists a good chance that a motorman is dead because of the TA's tinkering.
It was pretty widely known among operating crews that the GOH
cars stopped far worse than the pre-GOH cars. That was partly
because of the comp shoes and partly because of the J relay valve
modifications. The distance to stop in emergency from high speeds
was actually greater than the full service stop distance for
a while because of the lack of dynamics in emergency. After the
1995 WB accident and extensive testing, the emergency friction
brake rates were adjusted upward.
Good news is the R142 cars seem to accelerate and stop pretty well.
They also have re-instated the inshot valve, of sorts, in that
a brake call in excess of 2.5 MPHPS will result in supplementary
air brake in addition to the regen/dynamic.
I haven't yet been trained on these cars, and I still am holding out on hopes of P-Wire's return to rapid transit. In the meantime, I shall return next pick to the Hippos of the BMT so it will be a while before I get my hands on the new stuff.
There are a few places - and they seem to be growing - in the IRT where some of this does NOT hold true.
South of 157 on the SB 1/9 there is a yellow leaving the station followed by a red over white. The fixed signal posts a GT 30. If I approach that timer at anything over 25, I've hit it.
Entering Nevins St on 4 Trk (NB Local) - Approaching the station are anumber of greens with a 20 Miles restriction, then a 32 Miles sign, one more green, a yellow, a green R(esume) sign, a yellow at the entering end of the station and midway in the station ( around a slight curve) a red over white that clears at 8 MPH.
Between Rockaway Ave and Junius St on 2 Trk - a recently installed GT30, followed by a red over white that clears at 20MPH (and on a straight upgrade no less)
The most recent addition South of Nevins on 2 Trk - a yellow leaving the station and a red over white with no restriction (that I remember anyway) on straight level track that clears at about 10 to 15. I've only had to deal with that once or twice.
The only one of these timers that would appear to be necessary due to the physical layout is the one at Nevins NB. The rest are all on straight track that is either level or fairly close to it; certainly not enough of a downgrade to lose control of the train.
Right but you are talking about a one block grade time signal system, where you can NOT exceed the posted speed limit, or else you will pass the red/white signal and go into emergency. You must be at the allowable speed limit upon passing the approach I.J., located at the fixed signal denoting "GT" plus the speed limit number.In the acticle I was referring to, you can exceed the posted speed limit and still be able to stop for the next red signal. The Steinway tubes are two block, or yellow/"S" systems which gives you a second block to get your act under control. That is why I prefer the newer wheel detector systems. When working properly, it will enforce any speed limit for all cars in your consist, regardless of train length.
These timers are all there to control the speed of trains
through tight curves. Any jerkiness is a reflection of the
generally declining quality of train operation, in particular
a lack of emphasis on smooth operation, speed control and
braking. It's the same syndrome that results in stonewall
station stops.
>>"It's the same syndrome that results in stonewall station stops."
Not directed at someone?? Hmmm...
On the express tracks between 36 st and Pacific Street on the 4th Ave BMT, there are timers in place on completely straight tracks, which slow the train down to about 20MPH. They affect Manhattan bound trains in the middle of Union St., and Southbound trains before 25 St. These were not there when the Express tracks were completely re-built in the early 90's, but have been there for several years now. Does anyone know why this was done, and if they will ever be removed? They are really annoying, and unnecessary.
The Daily News announced a free, limited distribution afternoon newspaper, which will be distributed between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m. at subway, commuter rail, and bus stops in Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn.
I think that's a great idea -- a late paper to read on your way home. I hope they will focus on transit news, since their key audience will be transit riders.
I came up with this idea myself a couple of years ago, but most folks here at City Planning said it wouldn't work, and that afternoon papers were dead. Years ago, the naysayers said, blue collar workers came in and got off early, and could read the afternoon newspaper before dinner. The stock market closed earlier, so you could print the closing prices. You had more daygames in baseball, and reports of daytime action at the track were another reason to get something printed in the afternoon.
However, an afternoon paper can get late news from abroad -- good for immigrants -- and entertainment listings -- good for people on their way out. The fact that it will be distributed at transit stops could give in an audience with unique concerns.
Guess we'll see who is right.
The Daily News tried an afternoon edition in the early 1980s, it failed. I'm guessing this free afternoon edition will not have many pages in order to keep production costs down.
Hey! Sounds like that free morning paper in Philly, except an established newspaper is trying to head off that new kid on the block.
Here in Chicago, both daily newspapers (Sun-Times and Tribune) have an evening wrap-around section of a few pages, with breaking news and sports since the morning edition and that day's stock market results. They charge the same price for the wraparound and a morning paper inside it as they do for just the morning edition (35 cents for the Sun-Times and 50 cents for the Tribune).
Sounds like a good topic for the paper's first Letter To the Editor. If the Daily News is really interested in having this new venture succeed, then I'm sure they would welcome your suggestions, and those of other commuters, who must be interested in better transit even if they're not railfans. Why not try to send one in?
Larry: Your piece on the Daily News brought back a flood of pleasant memories. When baseball was played mostly in daytime back in the late 40's and early to mid 50's, even though we knew what had happened because we had heard Red Barber and Connie Desmond on WMGM and or WOR Channel 9, we used to wait eagerly by the local candy store for the Daily News early edition to hit the newstand at about 8:00 p.m., give to take a half hour or so. We'd see that truck in the distance and our blood would thicken, especially in the Dodgers victim that afternoon was the hated Giants.
While on vacation to Pennsylvania and New York, I visited by brother in
Oneonta, New York and among other things, he took us for a ride on the
Cooperstown and Charlotte Valley Railroad, which now is owned and operated
by the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society and the Leatherstocking
Chapter of the NRHS. They are operating eight miles of this 16 mile railroad,
which runs right past the house my brother used to live in many years ago.
On the way back to his place in Oneonta we drove down one of the back roads
to Cooperstown Junction which connects this line with the rest of the world.
There at the junction were two GG1 locomotives. I had to stop and take
their pictures, and I have posted the pictures here for you to see.
Apparently one of the units had been designated for preservation at
Steamtown, so I do not know why it is sitting here in the middle of nowhere,
except that maybe Steamtown did not want it. Perhaps they couldn't find
the boiler or something, or maybe they did not want it without its tender.
I hope that tese people will be able to do a good preservation job on these
engines, but I suspect that their own roadbed might not take the weight
of these monsters. Perhaps when they get their whole line up and running,
they will originate their service from this location.
These units are standing along NY 7 about 10 miles north (east) of Oneonta
NY. The connecting railroad is the former D&H, now run by CP (? ) who
reduced the line to single track, but also upgradeded it for faster, heavier
service.
Elias
Elias,
I don't think that GG-1's ever had tenders. They were electric engines, and ran from power supplied through overhead catenary.
I see that the one engine is numbered 4932. Were you able to note the number on the second engine?
They are nice pictures, it is sad to see the engines just rusting away on a siding. In their day they were fantastic engines, and I rode behind them many times on the old Pennsy between New York and Harrisburg PA.
Thanks for the pictures, they brought back many memories!
Karl B
However the GG-1's did have boilers for train steam heat and they carried 100 gallons of oil fuel and 300 gallons of water. I have photos of them smoking and steaming away.
However, running them, even if they hadn't been rotting for the last 20 years, would be an impossibility. ConRail or NJT stripped all the main transformers out of any G that was sold on it's own wheels, as the transformers were oil-filled and contained PCB's.
Also, if they were complete, where would you get 25 cycle AC at 11,000 volts?
Anywhere between New York, Washington DC and Harrisburg as well as on any Phidelphia area commuter line. Contrary to popular belief Amtrak never upgraded to 60hz and the NEC still runs at the origional 11 kV at 25hz. Metro North runs at 12.5 kV 60hz and NJT runs 25 kV, 60hz on its M&E lines. The reason for this is cost. The price tag to upgrade the M&E division from 3000 VDC to 25kV AC was 1 billion dollars. You have to re-work substations and power distrabution as well as raise clearences for the catenary. For Amtrak it just isn't worth it. The reason the GG-1's were withdrawn was simply because of cracks in their frames. Heavy steel casting is a lost art and there was simply nowhere to fix the old G's.
And had Amtrak upgraded the NEC to commercial frequency, that would have doomed the G's just as fast as the cracks in the frames. (If you ever had the opportunity to go under a GG-1 in Wilmington Shop you would have seen the mass of welds on the frames, just to keep the G's going a little longer.)
My post was just an explantion for what could possibly happen with the G's in Upstate. Conversion equipment for 60 to 25hz is VERY expensive. Amtrak had to install frequency changers all over the NEC as the utility companies were getting out of the 25Hz supply business. All the Amtrak substations now receive 60hz current and convert it to 25hz for the trolley.
If the NEC ever gets converted, the Hudson and Baltimore tunnels would get 12.5 kv as it was discovered that 25kv in the close clearence in the tunnels might cause arcing to the car tops.
There was a rumor a few years ago that NJT was looking at replacing the main transformer in their preserved G with a dry type and removing the boiler and adding a HEP unit for fantrip use.
I remember watching the GG-1's pulling long freights past the playground in ridgewood as it passed the BMT metropolitan ave station as it went over the connecting R.R.bridge,the G's gave throttle and roared past the playground,a few times i saw passenger cars being pulled seemed they were full, this was in the mid 60's.
I heard the same thing about the PCBs in the transformers consigning the GG-1 to museum status. I didn't realize that they had actually been removed, however. Do you know if they were removed from the G that sits in in the station at Harrisburg? IOW, could this be moved under its own power if desired?
My dad has a grainy video of "The last run of the GG-1," which took place on NJT's N. Jersey Coast line in 197?. (I don't know if this was actually the last run.) For the event, NJT had it painted PRR Tuscan red w/ gold pinstriping, and the vid had some cheesy folk tune about the G. The one at HAR is painted black w/ pinstripes.
[the vid had some cheesy folk tune about the G.]
"Big Red" is the name of the tune. The film (later video) premiered at a West Jersey Chapter NRHS annual dinner years ago and was subsequently shown on Jerseyvision.
I guess I didn't really mean "Big Red" was cheesy, necessarily. It may have done better with better production quality. But the film/video was of poor enough quality that it made the song seem silly.
It was the last GG1 run, and I didn't take issue with your description of the song. "Corny" might be apt.
The only GG-1 that may still have its transformers intact is 4877 (the Jersey G). As of several years ago it still had its transformers, although it was inoperative for other reasons. The one in Harrisburg has most definitely been stripped - of transformers and a host of other parts not essential for its function as a static display.
BTW, the numbers on the units at Cooperstown Junction are not their original PRR numbers, but the ones from the later mindless renumbering.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Were they really renumbered or did Amtrak just take the first digit off,i.e. 4902 became 902?
Our #4933 became AMTK 926.
The renumbering was somewhat different than that. Quoting from Karl Zimmerman's The Remarkable GG1, page 66:
Amtrak has renumbered its GG1's in a generally perplexing fashion. It has created a 900-929 series - which represents the initial 30 locomotives purchased - apparently by simply dropping the first digit of the original number. However, in only five of the thirty cases do the numbers actually correlate this way. In addition, Amtrak at the close of 1976 rostered ten GG1's with four-digit numbers. In five instances the numbers were original; the other five were renumberings, including one anomaly: 4939, which had never been a GG1 number, since the series stopped at 4938.
I have the number relationships for several of the units but not those at Cooperstown.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am not familiar with the book that you mention. It sure sounds like it would be a good one to read.
I had gotten my information many years ago from a Penn Central engineman who had the opportunity to work Amtrak and took it. I guess it shows that you can't always believe someone, even when they work for the railroad.
It's a small (72 page) oblong paperback that is out of print at the moment - it's been through several editions, of which mine is one of the earlier ones (but not the first). Quadrant Press is the publisher. www.abebooks.com has three copies but all are at relatively excessive prices - I've seen it at train shows for $15 within the past year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I get to a lot of train shows! I will have to watch for it.
I do happen to have a copy of it that I'd part with for a more reasonable price than $15. Of course maybe I should try harder, but I'm not out for blood!.
I think you missed the pun Karl! Steamtown... doesn't want a GG1? No tender. See you on the BU's later. Cheerio.
I guess that I did at that.
Steamtown has a number of diesels, and they don't have tenders.
The problem would probably be that a GG-1 could never be more than a static display with a number of steam engines in the same conditon. I don't suppose they would ever consider calling it Steam & Electric Town!
They could go off the deep end, and stick a GM 567 diesel in it, along with the appropriate traction motors, raise the rear pantograph, and make believe. Railfans would have a field day with that idea.
Wouldn't you like to see a GG-1 going down the track growling like a GP-9? :-)
Now as a traction lover [and steam to some degree]I'd have to say that would be the height of sacrilege. As bad as diesel replicas of river steamers complete with paddlewheel.
But I'll take this opportunity to plug the Illinois Railway Museum. They have all three..limited steam operation unfortunately but many on display. Traction from trolleys to els and interurbans..unfortunately their GG1 is only static. Plenty of diesels too.and diesel operation.
So whatever you like its there to see. Even BUSSES and trolley busses.
Back to the initial thought as much as I liked running diesels and wished I had but a little timne on steam my first love is still traction. I had envisioned SD40's with pantographs on mainline anyway. They'd have been a blast. Nice sounding motors..without that noisy diesel they could have sounded like a low-v.
In the mid '70s GM demonstrated GM6C #1975 on the PRR/Conrail electtrified freight lines. It was basically an electric SD40-2. About a year later came the GM10B, a 10,000 HP B-B-B monster. these units led to development of the AEM-7
Whatever happened to these locos? Conrail/NS only runs on Amtrak-owned NEC and Keystone corridors in limited capacity, and I'm pretty sure they use diesels. The catenary is only up for Amtrak use anyway (Enola yard & the West Shore line still have poles, but no wire.) Speaking of which, I must have seen the locomotives you speak of in and around Enola Yard when I was a kid, but I was too young to know or care what I was looking at.
As luck would have it I did seethem in Harrisburg in 1976 I think, passing thru on Amtrak. Too bad it didn't become a way of life. Of course the off the shelf diesels are way cheaper than limited run electrics but I find it interesting that two outfits that were [are] Fed run turned their back on electrification, went to using petroleum instead, and left with a few exceptions only the NEC on juice. Like taking the ATK electrics off at Philly and putting diesels on west of there.
Of course the Boston electrification is a plus.
Last I read (Trains magazine/NARP newsletter), the plan is for Amtrak to run electrics between Suburban (yes, Suburban) Station, 30th Street & Harrisburg, and for the addition of push-pull service, once the equipment becoms available. About 2 or 3 out of the 15 or so times I have travelled between NYP & HAR in the past 4 years, the Philly-Harrisburg leg used an AEM7 for power, but we still waited for the engine switch and end-change @ 30th Street. But I never had one on the way back from HAR to 30th Street.
Conrail chose early in its existence to stop using electrics because of the expense of maintaining separate maintenance facilities. Also, Amtrak's high mileage charge for the D.C.-NYC and Philly-Harrisburg corridors encouraged Conrail to use alternative routes.
Given the Freights' general attitude towards Amtrak, which most consider a nuisance, I'm surprised Amtrak is so generous as to allow any freight traffic at all on the only bits of track in the country they actually own (the NEC and Keystone corridors). The Amtrak delays on CSX -owned routes have been somewhat terrible, as A_non_e_mouse can also attest from first-hand, recent experience. It seems the freight railroads, while resisting new commuter rail development and Amtrak expansion at every turn, are only too happy to take advantage of Amtrak's ROWs. Personally, I think there is something wrong with spewing diesel fumes under catenary wire, but that's just me.
The Amtrak delays on CSX-owned routes have been somewhat terrible, as Anon_e_mouse can also attest from first-hand, recent experience.
Well, it wasn't CSX that did us in this time, it was a combination of US Customs, single track, and a late east/southbound Amtrak train. But you're right, I've been through some legendary delays while riding on Amtrak's Silver Service trains to our North Carolina home and on the Cardinal from Washington to Staunton, Virginia (where my daughter went to college the past four years).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just as well, it's a lot safer to have a dedicated passenger line, not to mention freight-caused delays.
I used to take the train out of Harrisburg for New York back then and I remember that engine. IIRC the engine was painted white and had blue lettering "GM 1975".
It was always setting in the passenger station on Saturday mornings, along with several other units, and I wondered if they ever used it.
They could have been testing the hell out of it during the week, but I was only there on Saturdays.
I can't imagine a GG-1 ever operating again under its original source of power. I still think my suggestion about installing a GM 567 diesel has merit. The vision of a GG-1 in motion would be beautiful, and the sound of the 567 prime mover would be an audio delight to the diesel fans!
I can remember 30 years ago when the WM would rev-up to leave town with a long train. The power would be a lash up of GP-7's, 9's and an occasional F-3. The sound was enough to give you goose-bumps!
I somehow just can't picture an SD-40 with pantographs, but I always hoped to see a crew member relaxing in a lawn chair on that big front porch!
Come and see the CNY Chapter's GG-1 #4933 at the NYS Fair, Opening tomorrow(Thursday) in Syracuse. Also our LIRR MP-54 #1149 and Amtrak's Acela Regional rebuilt Turboliner, all at our newly expanded rail exhibit facility at the New York State Fairgrounds.
08/23/2000
So sad to see these monsters that were the "standard" of railroading sitting amongst the weeds on rusty rails. At least they haven't met the scrappers torch.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well I leave tomorrow and I had 2 last minute questions.
1) Can I leave my bags at Union Station in a locker or something to make subfanning easier?
2) Is there anywhere I can get internet access to give you guys a live trip update?
Chicago Union Station does have a coin operated locker room. (Bring lots of Quarters), and Yes, Union Station does have credit card operated public computer terminals.
Elias
1) Can I leave my bags at Union Station in a locker or something to make subfanning easier?
There are lockers just off the Great Hall. When you come out of the baggage claim area, go straight ahead up the ramp and through the sliding glass doors. Once in the Great Hall (you'll know it when you see it), go across and toward the left. There should be a sign.
2) Is there anywhere I can get internet access to give you guys a live trip update?
Try the Harold Washington Library (the architecturally hideous red granite building at the corner of State and Van Buren). If that fails, try any public computer lab at the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC-Halsted on the Blue Line). It may still be possible to log in as a "Guest" and not need a student ID or password.
-- David
Boston, MA
Since the original thread is now off many of our pages, I started a new one. Especially since I finally had a chance to consult my source material. See notes at the bottom.
Oh, and consider me a teacher, this post is for educational purposes, in accordance with Title 17, Sec. 107.
From Six Bridges-The legacy of Othmar H. Ammann by Darl Rastorfer. Chapter 6, pages 120-124.
STRUCTURAL MODIFICATIONS
At the time the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge ["BWB"] was on the drawing board, the engineering community was largely unaware of the destabilizing effect wind could have on extremely lightweight and slender long-span suspension bridges. Although Ammann predicted that the BWB's shallow road deck would move more dynamically under the force of wind than one stabilized with conventional Warren trusses, a savings of $2M [1937 dollars] accompanied the choice of the elegant plate-girder stiffening system. An occasionally perceptible level of movement seemed a small price to pay for both beauty and financial bargain.
[Leon S.] Moisseiff1, Ammann's consultant for the project, had designed a long-span bridge in Tacoma, WA, that opened to traffic early in 1940, about six months after the New York bridge. Moisseiff's Tacoma Narrows Bridge ["TAC"] closely followed the design of the BWB, though it was longer and narrower. When the Tacoma bridge's roadway was torn to shreds under the force of a relatively mild wind on November 7, 1940, the spectacular disaster ignited public panic.
The TAC had been given the appropriate nickname "Gallopiing Gertie" even before it failed, because of the road deck's demonstrated instability during construction. The "gallops", or rolling oscillations that preceeded the...collapse created tremendous torsional stresses in the deck. It lacked sufficient stiffness to stand firm against the power of the wind, and the farther it moved up and down, the greater the stess. Once set in motion, the steady wind accelerated the gallops.
In response to public concern over the safety of long-span bridges, the federal government convened a blue-ribbon commission, which Ammann headed, to investigate the TAC failure. The commission determined that a number of factors had contributed to the bridge deck's excessive flexibility. It was too lightweight: the central span of 2,800' was 500' longer than the BWB, but it's suspended deadweight was less than 1/2 that of the NY bridge. The deck was also too shallow: its solid-web stiffening girders2 were only 8' deep, or 1/350 or the center span; the BWB's 11' deck was 1/209 the center span. Furthermore, the TAC side spans3 were long relative to the clear span,4 and the cables were anchored a considerable distance beyond the side spans: a more favorable interval would have tempered flexibility. Finally, the roadway's width relative to the clear-span length represented an unusually low ratio: 1:725 for TAC, whereas the ratio for the George Washington Bridge is 1:33 and the BWB 1:31.
Moisseiff had engineered his bridge in complete compliance with accepted theory and practice. The failure dramatically revealed a serious flaw with the deflection theory as it had conventionally been applied. Previously, engineers had focused on stiffening long-span bridges against the destabilizing effects of moving traffic. It was assumed that if they addressed this form of dynamic load,6 stiffness would also be adequate against what they considered the more minor effect of wind. The TAC failure demonstrated that long, light , suspended road decks will behave somewhat like the wing of an airplane. The Tacoma commission's seminal conclusion was that aerodynamics must become a primary engineering consideration in future lightweight, long-span design.
Ammann was aware that the BWB's bridge deck noticeably oscillated from time to time--it had first done so while it was under construction. Although it was perfectly harmless to the structure, the rare occasions when oscillation was amplified undermined the comfort level of people walking or driving across the bridge. In an effort to enhance the deck's stability, a number of minor alterations were made to the structure in 1940, most notably the addition of diagonal stiffening cables running from the tower tops to the plate girders. Understandably, accounts of the TAC failure raised new concerns about the aerodynamic stability of the BWB. Motorists who regularly crossed the bridge were particularly vocal in their demand for a structural reassessment. After structural examination--and subsequent wind tunnel testing--Ammann determined that alterations to the bridge were unnecessary, that it would be stable in any foreseeable wind conditions.
Public perceptions outweighed hard science. The chairman of the [TBTA], Robert Moses, gave orders to further stiffen the bridge, and in 1946 Ammann oversaw the retrofitting of two Warren trusses 14' tall that were connected to the tops of the BWB's plate girders; the trusses dip at midspan to accomodate the suspension cables. At the time of the retrofit, the bridge's sidewalks were eliminated and its six traffic lanes widened. Lost forever were the pure and siple lines of the original structure and the unobstructed views its roadway afforded travelers.
About the TAC collapse, Ammann later reflected, "regrettable as the TAC failure and other recent experiences are, they have given us invaluable information and have brought us closer to the safe and economical design of suspension bridges against wind action."
Anything in [brackets] is added by the editor (in this case, me)
Obviously, I abbrivated where the book does not. Well all know what the TBTA is; other abbreviations follow first usage of what it is in place of. ... means I trimmed words that didn't fit the abbreviation.
Footnotes:
1. Moisseiff was the designer of the Manhattan Bridge.
2. These are the sides of the bridge deck.
3. In suspended bridge design, a segment of the roadway between the cable anchorages and the suspension towers, under which there is no vertical support.
4. In suspended bridge design, a segment of the roadway between the suspension towers, under which there is no vertical support.
5. i.e., for every foot of deck width, the deck length is 72 feet.
6. Forces that impose internal stress on a structure.
-Hank
08/23/2000
The Bronx Whitestone of course did get the Warren Trusses after the BWB did a little occillating thing unlike Tacoma Narrows that scared some motorists one windy day. Unfortunaly, the pedestrian walkways had to be sacrificed.
Bill "Newkirk"
The pedways were sacrificed to motorists. They were removed because the roadway was widened, not because the trusses took the space. The trusses are attached to the tops of the outside plate girders. The original bridge deck had an inner barrier that was removed to widen the traffic lanes.
You can walk between every adjacent boro, with 2 exceptions. Queens and the Bronx, and Staten Island and Brooklyn. (I count the ferry as 'walking' from SI to Manhattan, since a 5-mile walk across a bridge is silly, and it's free to peds.)
-Hank
The original 6-lane configuration on the BWB must have been very narrow ... because they are STILL narrow as compared to the Throgs Neck Bridge.
--Mark
I heard they're going to put new entrances and elevators in that station. Where are they going to fit them? The front end of each platform gets very narrow. Are they going to put the entrance at one of the back ends?
Also, can anyone tell me why the platforms are gated off near the ends? I assume this station was lengthened since 1904 as is evident by the differences in pilars. They definatly need to do something because that station is too crowded.
Train Buff Headquarters
That station is currently under heavy renovation, which includes lenghtening the platforms and adding access to the south end. Read a few posts back...
-Hank
They have the square to the North of the station house completely torn up right now. It looks like the eleveators and new entrances are going in to the north, but who knows.
The post on the site says it will be finished in 2/3 years.
I was assembling something for the faq about rail across the Brooklyn Bridge and I came across this from my collection of usenet posts:
There was "subway" traffic on the Bridge through the mid 1930's. This was a pneumatic subway system that linked all the Manhattan Post Offices between 125th St and the old Main Post Office just south of City Hall. It also had a branch line to Brooklyn's Main Post Office on the other side of the river. The 16 foot diameter tube was located directly below the promenade.
I've never heard of such a thing before! Did it really exist all the way from City Hall to 125th St? 16 *feet* in diameter? That's a huge tunnel and a lot of air pressure required to move stuff around. It must have been a big effort to build a tunnel like that yet it doesn't seem to be very well known.
Did the original poster of the above perhaps confuse the Beach Pneumatic system, which was built under the auspices of a permit to build a pneumatic package delivery system from Warren to Cedar Streets, right past the old Post Office at Park Row & Broadway?
Anyone know?
-Dave
There was "subway" traffic on the Bridge through the mid 1930's. This was a pneumatic subway system that linked all the Manhattan Post Offices between 125th St and the old Main Post Office just south of City Hall. It also had a branch line to Brooklyn's Main Post Office on the other side of the river. The 16 foot diameter tube was located directly below the promenade.
I've never heard of such a thing before! Did it really exist all the way from City Hall to 125th St? 16 *feet* in diameter? That's a huge tunnel and a lot of air pressure required to move stuff around. It must have been a big effort to build a tunnel like that yet it doesn't seem to be very well known.
I'll bet that whoever posted that information meant to say 16 inches, not feet. A 16-inch pneumatic tube is comprehensible. A 16-foot one is not.
> I'll bet that whoever posted that information meant
> to say 16 inches, not feet. A 16-inch pneumatic tube
> is comprehensible. A 16-foot one is not.
My guess too. Pneumatic tube systems (of which I've seen a fairly recent example still in use at a Home Depot in the Bay Area) pooted little cannisters about the thickness of an arm. Sixteen _feet_ would have accommodated Superliners or tri-level auto racks!
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
If it ever existed, 16 inches pneumatic tube is more like it. You'd need the engine off of a 767 to force air through a 16 foot tube.
I've heard of the Bridge line, but all posts offices to 125th Street seems a bit like folklore. Was the now main 8th Avenue Post Office involved in the link?
Actually, it was apparenly done. From Granick's "Underneath New York" (the 1991 Fordham edition): "Having proved its worth, Batcheller then designed an eight-inch tube for New York City. The first extension was put into operation in 1897 between the General Post Office and the Produce Exchange. There followed an extension to Grand Central Station and another to the General Post Office in Brooklyn. The tube to Brooklyn was carried across the East River over the Brooklyn Bridge. In a few years, the pneumatic mail tube system extended as it now [Granick wrote this in 1947] does from the Battery to 125th Street." (P. 96) The whole chapter is 5 pages long, and there's an additional paragraph about them (being shut down) in the 1991 introduction.
The Produce Exchange (for those who don't know) was at 2 Broadway until a glass box office building replaced it in the 60s.
Transit Relevance: The MTA recently leased all of that glass box at 2 Broadway for the headquarters of Bridges and Tunnels and New York City Transit (I think they're closing 370 Jay, they've definitely closed 10 Columbus Circle).
In addition, I think the MTA is in a dispute with the owner of 2 Broadway. Something about renovations of the building not being done as/when promised (I think there's still construction work going on right now).
In Today's (Tuesday 8/22/00) USAToday on page 3A, is an article "L.A. transit drivers seeing less red; Signals turn green for city buses". The LA transit authority is testing a $10M system which allows traffic signals to favor the busses to help speed up the ride.
An online version is also available
Once again we get a post that is more appropriate to Bustalk than Subtalk. I put a long post on Bustalk about this service when it was introduced in June.
The only subway connection is that the two Rapid Bus lines are on the streets where the subway should have been built, and therefore are a continuation of the existing subway, but a poor substitute.
Tom
old tom what they did wrong was OVERBUILDING the red line & stations
too deep instead of just below street level ( like the irt in nyc )
too costly to large too fancy instead of simple common sense & plain
& the express bus is caught up in bumper to bumper traffic !!
A total bust !! 100% failure !! couldnt agree with your post more !!
thankz salaam allah htp://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
....
'Just below the surface' in LA wouldn't have worked for 2 reaasons. First of which is the diruption it would cause at street level, second is the areas propensity for earthquakes.
-Hank
#1 I said below streeet level BUT not as low as they whent, in which should have not been done
#2 Earthquakes mr eienstein ??
what about the successful rail systems in mexico san francisco san diego & many others?
Japan??
All are deep-tunnel systems, AFAIK. San Diego doesn't have a subway, other than a sandwich shop.
-Hank
i think they did a better job in san diego then los angeles !!
did they ever mees us up here !! totally too expensive ..Etc..
i agree with you ..
Well, the trend to overreacting to mishaps with excessive safety controls which hamper service doesn't seem confined to horizontal transportation. Ever since that elevator disaster of 8/11, the express elevators at both 1 WTC and 2 WTC have been reduced in speed to such a degree that it now takes one full minute to get from the lobby to the 44th fl, when before it took 20 seconds. I wonder if Otis makes grade timers ...
I was in an elevator at MIT the other day, and there was a "warning light" on the control panel that said MOTOR GENERATOR. We also have a freight elevator in my office building that has an old fashioned 600v controller to run the elevator (or as a subfan friend call is, "the vertical subway.")
Elevators, especially the 600 volt DC variety, are sometimes referred as "wall trolleys".
Hi-V elevators. Verrrrry interesting......
Hi-V elevators. Verrrrry interesting......
And rumor has it that the WYC will be installing R-68 elevators. It'll take you two hours to get to the top of the building.
If the controller is the flop-over type, then it is effectively
a Sprague MU controller. The hoist motor currents do not pass
through that controller directly, but instead actuate relays up
in the motor room.
Motor-generators were a later and very popular form of hoist motor
control. The motor is an ordinary 3-phase induction motor powered
from the commercial grid. The attached generator is given a variable
amount of field excitation current which controls the voltage it
puts out, which is applied to the DC hoist motor. Before the days
of solid-state inverters, this was the smoothest and most efficient
way to do multi-speed control.
/* Before the days
of solid-state inverters, this was the smoothest and most efficient
way to do multi-speed control. */
Correction: before the days of ignitron (mercury arc) rectifiers. I don't know if elevators ever used them (they might have), but they were (and still are) quite common in welding, and even rail applications, a/k/a the Silverliner. I know at least the early Arrows had them, and I think the M-2s had them too, though they use SCR (solid state) devices now.
An ignitron is a type of vacuum tube that's got a pool of mercury at the bottom, an 'ignitor" electrode, and a (graphite) annoe at the top, in a sealed glass lined steel vessel (between coke bottle and garbage can sized). Some wewre water cooled, others air cooled. Really cool technology, though mostly obsolete.
BTW - I've heard of the early Westinghouse MU controllers (such as those on the MP-54s) being referred to as "elevator" controllers. I barely remember the elevator operators at Macy's (or was it somewhere else?) in Harold Square.
When I started working in the subways, the elevators at 181 Street and Fort Washington Avenue had these controllers, reminiscent of the photos of George McLellan controlling devices. The walls were aluminum but the controllors and covers were all solid brass. A dingy cabin with a touch of class.
In Baltimore, the United Railways and Baltimore Transit had a lively business reselling 600 Volt DC to the owners of elevators in downtown.
In 1963, as the last two streetcar lines were winding down, the few remaining DC elevator owners were quite busy getting rectifer packages installled so their machines could keep running. Nowdays there may be less than 10 600 Volt elevators left in Charm City's downtown.
I'm trying to remember if an Ignitron (that was a trademark
name) was a simple mercury arc rectifier or a thyristor (a
device that is controlled by a gate and once triggered continues
to conduct until the current changes polarity, such as an SCR or
a TRIAC). In railway applications ignitrons were used in conjunction
with multi-tap step-down transformers, were they not?
I don't recall ever hearing of an elevator application of this.
The ignitron was a mercury arc rectifier that could be triggered at any time. Effectively the forerruner of the SCR. Once triggered, as you pointed out, it will conduct until the polarity changes.
Silverliners used them with 3 tap transformers. When starting, the tube would be firing at slightly less than 180 degrees through the cycle (in other words, right as the polarity was about to change). As the car accelerated, the tube (actually, tubes, there were a few) would fire sooner and sooner, until it was firing at 0 degrees. This would be maximum power. The control equipment would then retard the tube to just under 180 degrees, and go to the next power tap, and go back to 0 degrees again.. Running notch 1 would stop at the lowest tap, notch 2 would staop at the second, notch three would go through all three. Unlike a resistance or tap changing control, there's no noticeable steps in the control - it's perfectly smooth up to the maximum voltage for the specified notch. The AEM-7 takes this concept one step further, and allows for a continously variable (notchless) power controller, I think.
The E-33s and E-44s I think used tap changers, and simply used the tubes for rectification.
The technology works, but the tubes are picky about temperature, orientation, etc. Like any power handling tube, they need a good cooling ystem. Early ones (like on the Washboards and E-33/44) were water cooled, the Silverliners had air blast cooled tubes. Also, if they got too cold, mercury would condense on the anode, resulting in a "misfire", which would destory the tube. There were also problems with "arcback" and other issues.
BTW - the LIRR was thew first to use them in stationary power sub stations, where they were remarkably sucessful. the Lacawanna used them also, exclusively, on their 3kv system. I believe the NYCTa used them too.
By "tube", I mean a glass lined steel device, not a pure glass one. i've never seen them in real life, but from pictures, I gather they were the size of a small wastebasket. Pure glass ones did exist for other applications, a small postal railway operation in London used them:
http://www.karslake.co.uk/mailrail/html/photo-control2.html
Welding was the other place they were commonly used.
Today, such technology is all but obsolete. BTW, the first MUs to use SCRs were, I believe the Metroliners equipped by Westinghouse, though they were dismal failures. The GE ones had ignitrons, and were more sucessful. Westinghouse produced the first ignitron locomotive, an experimental for the PRR, in the early 50's. I believe the first (only) passenger motor to use them was the EP-5.
And all this time I thought the GG-1s used them.
The TA (more accurately the Board of Transportation) used
mercury arc rectifiers in the original IND substations.
I vivdly remember those manually operated express elevators at Macy's. The inner gates on them had what amounted to be a window shade which extended as the gates were closed. You could still see above and below them. It was cool to see the landing doors of each floor go by. Although they could stop at each floor, there were small signs above the doors on the second, third, and fourth floors which said, "This car does not stop here". Once we got on one of those elevators and asked the operator if he could drop us off on one of the "local" floors, and he did.
There used to be flip signs above the doors on the first or street floor which had "Express to 5-6-7-8-9" on one side if they were running and "Please use other cars to right/left", depending on whether you were on the 34th or 35th St. side, if they weren't. There were two such elevators on the 34th St. side and three on the 35th St. side. They're still there, but have been walled off on the first floor. Recently, the one by itself on the 35th St side was reposing on the eighth floor, gates chained open.
We currently use the unconverted manual elevators on the 35th st. side as freight cars. They have been converted to A/C power, as have all the elevators in the building. The 3 automatic cars,on the 35th st side, are due to be upgraded in the near future. The cars on the 34th St. side are permanantly closed. (I work there in the operations dept.)
Peace,
ANDEE
You work at Macy's? Do they still have the wooden escalators on the 7th Avenue side of the store?
-Dave
Sure, they're one of our biggest tourist attractions. What a bitch to mantain though! Unfortunately the treads on the lower floors have been replaced with metal treads. The upper floors still have wooden treads. They're on the B'way side too, first escalators in the city. 98 years young! Clackity-clackity-clack
Peace,
ANDEE
Neat! We found a couple of wooden escalators squirreled away in odd locations during our Paris Metro trip this past spring. Don't see too many of them around anymore.
I was in London in 1990 when they were in the process of replacing all the wooden escalators in the underground after the fire they had. I witnessed a porr guy at Piccadilly Circle coming off a train from the airport standing at the bottom of a shut off escalator with 2 suitcases and a look there's no way I'm carrying these up all those stairs.
I think there are still one or two in London.
Simon
Swindon UK
I remember seeing some elevators at Earl's Court at the eastern exit (you probably know the street - I don't remember) which went down to the Piccadilly line. They may have been out of service.
Yes, it is I believe Earls Court Road.
I understand a major factor of the Kings Cross fire was the wooden escalators. I think all trads are now metal but some sides are wood.
Simon
Swindon UK
The inferno started when some moron threw a lit cigarette on the escalator. I can't believe they weren't replaced years and years ago. The NYC subway system thought it wise to ban wooden subway cars from tunnels 80 years ago.
But for much different reasoning. And they were banned more than 80 years ago.
-Hank
I'm sure the fire risks factored into their banning, as well as the dangers displayed by the Malbone St. disaster.
The Composites, for one, were generously treated with asbestos. When they were scrapped, they had to be literally drenched with gasoline before they could catch on fire.
I'm not sure if any of the other classes of wooden el cars had any fireproofing.
They were banned less because of the risk of fire (remember, those coaches had been originally designed to be pulled by steam engines, and had oil lamps on board) than the thought of what would happen if a train of wooden cars derailed in the subway.
Malbone St. proved them right.
-Hank
Can you believe the IRT actually mixed Composites and Gibbs cars
in the same train?
I knew Earl's Court Road was one of the streets. When I was in London in 1978, that was my "home station", as we stayed at the Chelsea Hotel. Most of the time, I accessed that station from the west entrance, and naturally I can't remember that street name, either.
I've ridden on them, too. Pretty cool.
I remember when the 34th St. side was initially walled off. All of the elevators there were closed for a time, then the automatic ones were reopened. So, what you're saying is they're all closed on the 34th St. side now, correct?
I also remember the recorded annonucements on them. Yes, they had recorded elevator announcements at one time. On the first floor, as you entered one of the cars, a lady's voice would say, "Welcome to Macy's. Please touch button for desired floor." A different feminine voice was used for the other floors. Inside the car, you would hear, "Arriving second/third/fourth/etc. floor" while outside, a "Going up" or "Going down" announcement would be heard at the same time the corresponding arrow lit up and the doors opened. As you went down to the first floor, the original voice would come on and say, "Arriving street floor. For service to the lower level, transfer to 35th St. elevators." (I'll bet that's why they closed the ones on the 34th St. side) And, believe it or not, if you held the doors open too long, you'd hear "Please keep the doors closed".
IIRC, most, if not all of the automatic elevators were converted to express operation. The ones on the 35th St. side ran nonstop to the eighth floor, if I'm not mistaken.
they also slow them down when its windy. its really bad, as it goes 3 floors in 2 seconds now (i think) instead of the normal 2 floors in 1 second. it takes forever to go from 1 to 78, but the elevators on 78 didnt seem to change in speed.
The local elevators have always moved slower than the express ones. Now they crawl along at about the same speed.
They probably disabled the field shunting.:-)
Elevator World magazine often has transit related features, usually about monorails and other fixed guideway systems. They did a nice piece on the Wuppertal Monorail a while back. Or take a look at their online article archive.
I remember u guys saying they should put mustard on the Quarter pounder with cheese. I work on the grill, and people always order things that aren't on the menu. Its called a grill order. Just tell ur Cashier exactly what u want, and He/She will tell us (The grill team) to make it. For example today was Cheeseburger no pickles, Cheeseburgers with bacon, Filet of Fish with extra Tarter sauce with no tomato. So whateva u guys want, we will make it for you. Because We LOVE TO SEE YOU SMILE!!!!!!!
By the Way, if u guys ever wanna visit me, I work on weekdays and weekends in the morning to late afternoon, in the Cambria Heights McDonalds. Just take the Q4 to Springfield and ask is Paul the Trainman here? Just say Train, F Train or the one with size 17 shoes.
Well, my Metrocard ran out the other day, I had no money, and was in Midtown Manhattan and had to get to my home in Queens. As I walked over the Queensboro bridge, I had to ask myself, "What Suspension Bridges in NY have pedestrian walkways." Here's what I know for sure:
Manhattan: 1 walkway, closed
Brooklyn: 1 Walkway
Williamsburg: 1 Walkway
Verrazano: No walkway (no bikes or pedestrians allowed).
Triboro: 2 walkways, North one (the one closer to AMTRAK) closed, filled with grafitti. South one open, no tags at all!
Queensboro: 1 "Walkway" (Actually a converted roadway, still some road signs).
George Washington Bridge: At least one, maybe 2 (Yes, you can walk to Jersey!).
What I want to know: Do the Bayonne, Whitestone, Goethalls, and other large bridges have pedestrian walkways?
Manhattan
1 walkway, closed
2 walkways, closed
Brooklyn
1 Walkway
Williamsburg
1 Walkway
two walkways, one closed
Verrazano
No walkway (no bikes or pedestrians allowed).
The Bridge was designed walkways outside of the truss on the lower level on both sides (evidence visible in towers). Moses nixed the plan fearing jumpers and poor transit users amond other things. There are still active proposals to build them.
Triboro
2 walkways, North one (the one closer to AMTRAK) closed, filled with grafitti. South one open, no tags at all!
Queensboro
1 "Walkway" (Actually a converted roadway, still some road signs).
I thought there were two, at least one is an HOV lane during the rush.
George Washington Bridge
At least one, maybe 2 (Yes, you can walk to Jersey!).
There are two, one is closed temporarily for renovation.
What I want to know: Do the [following] large bridges have pedestrian walkways?
Bayonne
One walkway, open
Whitestone
Walkway closed when truss installed and roadway widened in wake of Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster
Goethalls
It's Goethals, one walkway, closed "temporarily" (not like the GWB, the GWB is to reopen soon, the Goethals is going to reopen in like 2003 or something)
...and other large bridges
Check out Fiboro Bridges (from Transportation Alternatives)
There are actually no walkways (constructed for the purpose) on the Queensboro Bridge. Each of the lower, outer roadways has been used at times for bikes and pedestrian traffic.
I really regret the lack of a walkway on the Verranzano. It would be a spectacular walk, at least in warm weather. Of course, the bridge is open to pedestrians one day a year, the day of the NY Marathon.
... also during the NYC 5 Boro Bike Tour.
--Mark
In October 1989, the bridge was open to pedestrian traffic to celebrate the VNB's 25th anniversary. Thousands of pedestrians and some brass bands crossed and recrossed the bridge that day, and of course pics from the event will eventually make it to...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Danny Aiello passed me on the bridge that day and he's a lot taller and faster than he seems in his films...
The Williamsburg bridge has one walkway. It was built with 2, and for a long period of recent times, one was closed. Both of the original walkways have been demolished, and a new walkway has been built. Therefore, there is one walkway on the Willy B.
The north walkway on the GWB is closed because they built a temporary hanger to support the bridge about 1/4 of the way across from Ft. Lee. This was required for cable testing, as they cut a chunk of the cable to test it.
No one can recall the last time the walkway over the Goethals was open, and no one recalls ever seeing anyone on it (among the 10 people I asked) I tried to cross it a few years ago, but the traffic whizzing by you while you're on a 5' wide walkway is intimidating.
The Bayonne walkway is closed during the deck replacement work.
The walkway on the whitstone was eliminated at the same time the trusses were added, but not because of the trusses. Moses had the traffic lanes widened, and this eliminated the sidewalks.
What keeps walkways off the VZ is the high wind and the fear of jumpers (which is unfounded. No one jumps off the GWB!) I've been a pedestrian on that bridge. It's not pleasant.
-Hank
The walkway on the whitstone was eliminated at the same time the trusses were added, but not because of the trusses. Moses had the traffic lanes widened, and this eliminated the sidewalks.
I never said one was a direct result of the other, I just said it was all done around the same time.
I've been a pedestrian on that [Verrazano] bridge. It's not pleasant.
You've run in the Marathon?
Golden Gate still has one for pedestrians, but there is about a 20 foot high fence to stop jumpers, but it doesn't. The Sydney Harbour Bridge has one inbetwen the rail tracks and the outside, but it is on the wrong side of the bridge for a good view. Also you can walk the girders of the bridge, Yes the structure, has a tour. Cost about $65.00 USD, with a 45 minute pre walk orientation. I undewrstand it is quite popular when I was there last month
Who me? HA!
On its 25th Anniversary, they closed to upper deck to traffic. I marched across with my Boy Scout troop. When we reached the Brooklyn tower, we met the troops from Brooklyn.
I asked: Are you guys from Brooklyn?
"Yes"
GO HOME!
Which of course brought yowls of laughter from my scoutmaster, assistant, and a couple of the parents with us. 3 of the 3 were native Islanders, and have been around longer than the Bridge.
-Hank
>>> I marched across with my Boy Scout troop. <<<
Of course you made sure they broke step didn't you? You know you can never be too careful. :-)
Tom
Here is the latest on the Willie B:
The original walkway is gone- replaced by the new walkway (red fencve panels) to the right of the Brooklyn Bound JMZ track. This is accessed by stairs from street level to a temporary walkway to the right of the Outer Brooklyn bound lanes. Near the Manhattan Anchorage there are stairs to the new permanent walkway. You can see where it is eventually going to continue and lead to street level (full ADA access when completed.) Yet to come is a twin for this walkway.
The Queensboro bridge is NOT a suspension bridge, it's a canteliever bridge.
-Hank
I knew that, that's why the subject line uses 'Large' instead of 'Suspension'. It slipped my mind when writing the actual text.
Very interesting! I never knew that the Queensboro, GWB, and the Williamsburg had walkways. Where are the entrances on the Manhattan side for these three bridges? Are the views on these bridges as good as they are from the Brooklyn Bridge? Also, what is on the other side of these three bridges? Thanks!
The GWB's entrance is on 177st, the other side I don't really know (but I do know there's an NJT bus stop practically in the toll lanes, if you don't want to walk back). View's pretty good (well, I was looking at the walkway from the bus, and it seemed pretty good). There are "Loitering Prohibited, enforced by the PA of NY and NJ" signs, I can just imagine the tourist after getting a good picture being told to "move along."
The Williamsburg entrance is in plain sight on both sides (well, I can see it from the J/M/Z tracks). The walkway is right next to the trains but a little higher.
The Queensboro entrance is impossible to find on the Manhattan side, I found it by luck. Go to 59th and Second, you'll see the vehicular entrance to the lower level and will be right under the Roosevelt is. Tramway. Cross second ave (no small feat) and look left, you'll see it (a converted roadway). There should be a sign. If you get to first ave, you've gone too far. View is good, but since its the lower level you can't see north well. But if you wanted to see that, you'd use the Triborough. And no, there's no staircase to Roosevelt Island. On the Queens side, the bridge leaves you at Crescent st. and Queens Paza South. If you don't feel like walking back, take the 7 or N.
Well, down here in Philly, our all-purpose suspension bridge, The Ben Franklin, has the Northside walkway closed due to bridge painting. It may not be in New York, but I guess it counts.
The Triboro was the last (1936) big bridge to have pedestrian walkways. The Whitestone ('39), Tappan Zee ('55), Robert Moses ('54?), Tappan Zee ('56), Throgs ('61) and Verrazano ('64) don't have them partly because of Moses' refusal to allot space on his bridges for anything but motor vehicles, and partly to discourage suicides.
The Cross Bay (rebuilt 1968) and Atlantic Beach (1957?), while toll bridges, are considered more as 'neighborhood' bridges than long distance, and hence have sidewalks. The Atlantic supposedly has pedestrian tolls of a dime, but when I walked over it in the winter, no one was manning the Sizzler-type turnstiles then. This toll may only be in effect in the summer, if any more at all. The alleged reason for their existence was that the wealthy of Atlantic Beach wanted to discourage the dregs of Far Rockaway from walking over.
The Henry Hudson does have a narrow walkway on the west side of the lower roadway. On the Bronx side, it's accessible just north of the Kappock Street overpass, but on the Manhattan side it disappears into the wilds of Inwood Park. There are 'No Admittance Except MTA Employee' signs, but no pedestrian- or bicyclist- ever gets challenged. Some spectacular views of the river and Palisades are available, but the noise from passing vehicles (magnified from being on the lower level) can get annoying.
The outer lanes on the Queensboro's lower level were originally used for the trolleys that evolved into the Fifth Avenue bus route- later Q32. At the bridge's peak, there used to be a trolley stop from which one would ride an elevator down onto Welfare (before it became a dirty word) Island. The shaft towers are still visible.
It must have been a lot of fun waiting for a trolley up there in the middle of winter.
This discussion amplifies my point about why I believe all Manhattan entrances should be tolled. There is a way to get into Manhattan free from every land mass, including Staten Island (via ferry).
I'm happy to allow people access to Manhattan for free. If you want to bring in a couple of tons of metal, different story.
Buses and taxis should be exempt.
(Buses and taxis should be exempt).
I'll agree with buses and add emergency vehicles, and all vehicles (especially delivery vehicles) in the middle of the night, when bringing in that two tons of metal does less harm.
Not sure about the taxis, though. Maybe if they have four passengers. Then again, with four passengers, the per passenger toll wouldn't be that high.
There is an old city law that says every boro need at least 1 free way to get to manhattan. This is to give all citizens access to city hall.
Well, for many years it had gone unenforced relative to Staten Island.
-Hank
The Ferry still charges for cars?Does this mean the law is still ignored
Always has. $3. Used to be $3 for car and driver, and .50 per passenger, unless you had 3 or more, then it was a flat $4 When the pedeestrian fare was eliminated, the car far remained at $3, and the carpool fare was reduced to $2. The ferry cost a nickel each way from it's beginning until the mid 70's.
-Hank
No, people could walk to New Jersey, and then to the GWB. It would take hours, and of course be infeasable, but it was probably the way the city got around the law.
With all the imput so far what about the path on all the bridges on the Wantagh Parkway going from Merrick Rd to Jones Beach? The scenery is absolutely beautiful on that walkway, especially the rollerbladers and bicyclists in halters and hot pants!!!
Hi Folks, Does anyone know for sure how many cars this train will have and what lines it will travel on? Any help is greatly appriciated. Thank You. Regards, Tom.
A few clicks here.. a few that way..
a scroll that way.. and PRESTO!
you'd have your answer.
Click it to Upcoming Events, Tommy.
What I know is it will start at 57th Street/7th Avenue at 10:30 AM Sunday. It will travel via West End, Culver, Brighton, Queens Blvd IND, and Williamsburg Bridge.
I want to know after starting the trip, which line will it go first, West End or Brighton lines?
Chaohwa
On this excursion, 6 cars are scheduled to be utilized, plus the observation car. I imagine more cars could be added if necessary, but 6 redbirds will probably do. The consist should have an R-33 single on each end (for signal protection) with 4 Air Conditioned R-36s for your comfort in the middle. The observation car is at the end of the consist, so this train will generally be operating in one direction over the various loops in several yards, and running through Stillwell Av Terminal.
Lunch will be at Coney Island. There's a distinct possibilty that the excursion may end back on the Flushing Line at 111th St. There's supposed to be a Mets Game that night.
My opinion: I welcome the possibility of crossing from the Astoria to Flushing Lines at QB Plaza. How often do you get to do that?
-Stef
The 4x move? I get it 5 nights a week. Check the observation car, as it should also have a diversion valve. All misc flatcars have one. You may have one R33 single as the operating car and the observation car at the end. You don't need a diversion valve engaged for the last car, only the first. If the observation car doesn't have one, you will have a TSS aboard anyway, as it will have to be flagged in an emergency. I have made moves from division to division where the lead car did not have the 4 trippers. In such case, the TA "deems it safe" to put a TSS on the train.
TSS Fix Everything!!!
or is that ATM??
Understood. Thanks for the Info.
I was thinking to myself before your post that the an R-33 single would have to be on each end of the Redbird Consist in the event that it has to travel to/from Coney Island to pick up/drop the Observation Car. Operationally, isn't it more sensible to have the singles on each end?
You have to put a TSS on the train if the lead car doesn't have the 4 trip cocks? What can a person do that a trip cock can't? What's to stop the train from being in a mishap? Sure the train will have it's brakes tripped, but 50 feet too late.
-Stef
Won't the brake tripper go down once the front truck enters the signal block?
The trip cock on the standard IRT Car wouldn't make contact with the BMT/IND Trippers until the back truck passes. The front truck? If the signal's red, it'll just pass.
-Stef
What I mean is, wouldn't the passing of the front truck into the signal block cause the same effect as a key-by?
I believe so, but am not clar on this.
-Stef
The TSS is the TA's way of saying the move is "SAFE". However, the most important reason to have a second man at the controller is in case the T/O gets sick or collapses on the controller. Without a tripping device to stop the train at a red signal, the TSS should be able to avert a collision by pulling an emergency cord. I'd guess this method of operation stems back to the Roosvelt Avenue wreck, maybe THE TRAIN DUDE (TM) can elaborate further.
I thought I noticed on the General Order that only two R36 cars are being used with four R33 singles.
Oy vey! It sounds like the two AC Cars are going to be packed....
-Stef
... not if this summer's weather pattern continues to hold .....
Then again, on the last Lo-V trip in late September 1998, we had a much hotter day than normal, so maybe Mother Nature's a railfan, too :)
--Mark
I'll double check when I return to work on Saturday.
Does anyone have the specific routing--ie: does anyone have the G.O. to post?
I heard on the news last night that a report was issued about service irregularity on the subways. Division A did worse than division B.
Some lines with the lowest service regularity are the 1,4,5,6,7 and M lines. Some with highest regularity are the A,C,E,F,N, and D lines.
In my opinion there does seem to be alot of irregularity on the IRT lines, especially the 4,5,6,and 7 because of crowding. Because the stations are of an older, narrower design, as well as IRT trains, door holding and slow boarding hold trains up. I generally do tend to agree with the results, as at least it SEEMS I have to wait less for an E or F than a 7 or 7X.
I did ride some trains today. LIRR from Mineola to Jamaica, which was very fast, but we had to wait for about 10 minutes outside Jamaica due to trains ahead of us.
Then I got the E at Sutphin, which was an R32 fortunately so I could get a front window. It was a pretty fast ride, I saw the speedometer hit 45mph in the stretch between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza. I see speed limit signs that say 36mph but I guess most trains go faster. Made it through the 53rd street tubes pretty quickly.
I then took a 6 train from 51st to 42nd, and used that nice new transfer to the 7, which was pretty nice.
I waited for about 5 minutes for a Queens-bound 7, this was around 5'oclock. A train finally came, I boarded in the last car which is always the most empty, signs said Flushing express and that's what I thought I heard garbled on the PA (anouncements seem to be bad on IRT trains).
So I got the rear window view as we went through the Steinway tubes, it appeared some tunnel lights were out, and it was pretty looking at the window of light fade away as we pulled away from 1st ave crossovers. Anyway we arrive at Queensboro plaza and I hear over the PA "This is a Flushing-LOCAL!! LOCAL TRAIN". I get off and notice the signs outside of the train now say local. Fortunately there was an express a few minutes behind us. It was abit more crowded, even in the last car. The doors close but we don't move for 5 minutes because people were fighting to get into the front cars of the train, and I heard over the PA "incident, passengers were arguing and threatening conductor to let them (holding doors) in even though there was no room.
Finally he got the doors closed and we moved. The rest of the ride was fast as the T/O really raced down the middle track, to make up for lost time.
This doesn't suprise me that the 7 has a high irregularity rate because there is always severe crowding and door holding at rush hour, which delays trains, at Times Square, Grand Central, and QB Plaza.
Queens BLVD is better, I'd much rather take an E or F (esp the F) and get off at 71st/Cont, catch the Q65A and then take the Q20A/B/44 at Main. But I had a Cinnabon craving, and the only one in the city is at 53rd and Lex, and I didn't have time to deal with the buses though, and even with the delays on the 7 I got to Flushing in about 55 minutes from Jamaica Center, that's with stopping off at Cinnabon (right outside E/F entrance). Alot quicker than the bus in rush hour traffic. But most importantly, MORE FUN!!!
I know Cinnabons are heavy in fat and calories but cmmon guys is Nathans any healthier?? There's nothing wrong with a little fast food as long as you don't have it everyday!!
Of course what would be nice is ANOTHER subway to Flushing, how about extending the G and having it run up a new line going up Main street all the way to Flushing, then to College point and LGA airport!!
Right now it's either a crowded 7 train, or a slow bus ride. When it's hot, I do opt for the bus ride though from 71st/Cont E/F/G/R.
Go figure.. transit "advocates" with nothing
better to do that clock the minutes between
trains.. why not join the club, chappy?
Irregularities on the 1?? the 9??
Whutcha tawkin' about Miss Advocate?
There are a series of short signals labeled "WD" with descending numbers (in increments of 5) starting before Canal St. on the 8th Ave line, at least on the local. They look like they're lunar white, though I've never seen one lit. They are relatively new. I couldn't find anything on these in the section on signals here. What are they?
The numbers on the "WD" signs are the speeds the trains must go as they pass each "WD" sign. The "WD" on the sign means "Wheel Detector", and they monitor the train's speed through this area. Since there are lunar white lights on each, the train must obey these regulations only when lit. If not lit, they can proceed at normal operating speed.
This raises more questions - mainly, what's special about Canal that it gets these? Why not ST's?
There's a difference between the 2. The "WD"'s allow the control tower to detect the train speed. The ST's allow a train to enter a station, while the preceding one is leaving.
Lately, the TA is putting WD's everywhere, and not always in places that actually warrant it. Also, you can check the meaning of these postings on the following link
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/signs.htm
I was wondering what those WD signs meant on the last visit I made to NYC. We didn't have them inmy NYCT years. Then when I saw wheel detector my first thought was that they checked for hotboxes, hot wheels indicating brakes sticking, etc. Now I know. Thanks.
There's a double crossover at Canal. I think the WD is lit for crossovers only.
There are many WDs going in at crossovers. It started with the Union Square wreck.
The discussion about Canal Street station reminds me of a question I've been wondering about for quite a while now.
During the morning rush hour, the uptown C stops on the express track at Canal, and then *slowly* crosses over to the local track.
--Isn't this a bottleneck?
--Why doesn't the C cross over to the local track before pulling into Canal?
--Has service at Canal always been configured this way?
I assume this arrangement has something to do with the close headway of the E during rush hour.
There are no switches south of Canal Street when heading north. The Brooklyn-Bound tracks are connected to the "express" tracks at Canal Street.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
Regarding placing them to guard crossovers, what the heck for? [At least when there's a station between the signals and the crossover.] It would seem that keeping the departing signal at the station red would serve the same purpose, and should be a lot easier to implement (since in the case of Canal it's also the signal that guards the switch, the default line-up could be "none" until a line-up is set from the tower or punched from the cab).
I can see why they wouldn't want to force a full stop outside a station, but since the train is already stopped at the platform, I don't see the point of the WD's there.
Maybe because if the T.o. is asleep at the wheel, as in the Union Square mishap, the train wouldn't be stopping at the station.
So, what's the stopping distance for an "average" train after it gets tripped by a red signal?
Wasn't the Union Square incident at a crossover _before_ a station, and didn't involve a red signal? I thought it was excessive speed into the crossover on a yellow signal?
Whoa! The T/O asleep at the wheel? Don't you mean controls?
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections.
That too.
Most WD's are used at cross overs. When they are flashing white I believe this is notice to the train opertor he is in violation and must slow down. Solid white means it is active and the T/O must follow the WD speed.
There is one on at Lawerence Street on the N/R/M north bound.
There are a lot of them on the Lexington Ave. tracks in Manhattan.
Good place for one there - there's a crossover PLUS an "S" curve coming into Court Street.
There's a nest of WD's on the s/b #6 line as it nears the portal south of Whitlock, plus there's one on the s/b 6 Avenue line near West 4th Street (where it ruins fine express runs by "Q" trains).
WD's DO have their place in the scheme of things, let's hope they are used judiciously and not scattered willy-nilly all over the system.
wayne
Well, the WDs on the southbound 6th Avenue express tracks are only activated if the diverge is set from the express track to local.
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections.
The WD on the southbound 6th ave express tracks are only used for the switch just north of W 4 st. I take the "B" every day, and they usually only slow down when there's congestion ahead. Usually, this is most of the time. If your driver is slowing down, and all the lights are green, then he needs to be educated.
Why do we have Wheel Detector (WD) signals? That's easy -- Union
Square.
WD are used to control speed over switches. They are, in effect,
a wayside automatic speed control mechanism. The ability to
do this has always been a part of the NYCT signal system. Prior
to WD signals, crossovers would be protected by "DT" (Diverging
Timer) type signals, or by single-shot lunar white timers, both
of which, like the WD, are active only when a switch is set for
diverging.
The older timers regulate speed by timing the passage of the train
through a fixed-length track circuit. They have the disadvantage
of requiring a bunch of short little track circuits and all the
associated relays, transformers, fuses, insulated joints, etc.
They also have the disadvantage that, because they are average-
sensing, the instantaneous speed of the train can exceed the
stated limit without penalty, as long as the motorman slows down
before the next signal.
In reality, a DT timed section on approach to the offending switch,
with perhaps one additional overlay through the turnout, is
sufficient to limit speed to safe values, even if it does exceed
the posted number.
However, most switches in the system prior to 1995 lacked any kind
of timer control or, in the case of Union Square, the timer signal
was too close to the switch to be effective. The WD system is the
latest and greatest. It is much easier to install than conventional
timers because it requires no additional track circuits.
Speed is computed by sensing, inductively, the passage of the axles
over a small fixed distance.
Yeah, but they seem to be all over the place now. Instead of going 10 MPH now, these trains are going 2-5 MPH, even when passing a WD 10 sign. Just ride the "N" train from Dekalb to Pacific. It takes twice the time, and is ridiculously slow......
I think a commemt made by the School Car instructor I met during the opening weekend of the Southwest light rail corridor summed it all up. You can take it FWIW: he feels the TA doesn't trust its train operators.
Of course not! I'm surprised Harry & Erik haven't jumped in yet.
The quality of train operators has been steadily declining.
Although I've never seen this on paper as a plan, it makes sense
in that the TA would want to have the minimum competency necessary
to operate the trains. This way a lot less is invested in training
and ultimately the job is a less skilled position commanding lower
wages. If you look at the big picture: OPTO, CBTC, it's easy to
see where this is heading.
As for WD signals causing slowdowns, the train operators are terrified
of them. They are the modern-day equivalent of Blind Stops.
You never quite know when the dreaded trip is going to happen, and
unlike tripping on an automatic GT signal where you can charge and
go and hope no one notices, when you hit a WD a bell rings in the
tower and everyone knows about it. Since there is no incentive to
maintain scheduled time but a heavy dis-incentive against having any
kind of problem on the road, the train operators do the natural thing
and take it real slow.
We've come a long way from the "Cowboy Motormen" complaints of
the late 70s.
Bring back the cowboys !
Yeah, especially on the CPW express dash.
Hello buddies. Some of you may know me from BERA. I have a question. What were the car #'s of the R-17's that were on the Farewell to the R-17 Special back in 1987 or 1988? I know #6688 was one of them.
Lou Shavell or Larry, Redbird R-33 can verify this, but the excursion was comprised of 6 cars, which I believe were 6550, 6579, 6614, 6623, 6681, in addition to our 6688.
-Stef, A Dedicated R-17 Restorer
Of the 6 cars on the train, I can tell you that 6550, 6579, and 6614, went to work service with yellow stripes while it was still in Redbird Paint. They were eventually painted yellow with black stripes.
6623 was scrapped in 1996 after sitting in dead storage for many years. Not clear on 6681, but I believe she was a parts donor for 6688, and was scrapped later.
-Stef
Just curious, but was there a "Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish" farewell fantrip for the R17's evil twin B division brother, the R16?
Not that I can recall. It appears they were withdrawn quitely. None of them were in decent shape to have an excursion run. Now, if we could take the surviving R-16s out of dead storage, we'd have an intersting excursion. 2 Survivors at Coney Island, 1 at the Transit Museum, and one at PS 248, which is an honorary Redbird. Hey, we could travel back to the 50's and ride the 15 again...
-Stef
Well I'd prefer an R16 fantrip in cars covered with grafitti, slanted door pockets, at least 3 broken doors per car, and with those colorful 1969-ish side destination signs. That's how I remember em.
Yes, but the fantrip would probably start at 57th-7th Ave. and end about 49th and 7th, after the cars broke down.
Yeah, especially if 6321 were to be included in the consist.:-)
Don't forget no lights!
Peace,
ANDEE
OR just flip your 2000 Subway Calendar to September to see a string of R-16s on the #10 going to Myrtle Ave.
Mr t__:^)
A nice picture of one of the greatest subway models, the beloved R-16!
Maybe it's just as well that you weren't around during their final years. It was painful. No one knew if they would start up again after stopping at a station. Or if the doors would open.
OTOH, there is a silver lining to all of this. You remember them when they were new, and mentioned that the public loved them at that time.
These cars were pitifully neglected. Even the R10's were given a mini-overhaul a few years before they were scrapped. The R16's were run until they fell apart. Ugh.
Does everyone know what the R-68 was supposed to be? It was to be the new R# for overhauled R-10's and R-16's....I'm not sure how many cars were to be included in this project. I guess they figured that new cars were cheaper?
-Mark
No they realized that there was no way to make a Red Bird/Arc Roof into a Hippo (can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear either)
BTW, please pardon me as I have HPS.
Mr t__:^)
>>>BTW, please pardon me as I have HPS<<<
What's that???
Peace,
ANDEE
Hyper posting syndrome??
No, heypaul syndrome.
I guess we have to excuse him, because he doesn't read EVERY post.
Mr t__:^)
You do?
I come close, I click on every message, I might not even bother to open it though.
Ok you guys. You changed my subject to something about R-16's. But really, who knows what cars were on that R-17 Fan Trip back in 1987. Stef says 6550 was on the train. Lou says it was in the 180th St.yard. BTW, everyone have a good time on the R-33/36 Observation trip tomorrow.
The entire fleet was neglected during the era of deferred maintenance. Even the R-10s weren't immune to it. A number of them were in dire need of repair in the early 80s and were simply retired. The Triplexes, OTOH, would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance.
True. But some R10's were overhauled, painted and put back into service, even when they were scheduled to be scrapped. I'm suprised that the R16's weren't painted green and given at least SOME type of overhaul. Not much, but making sure all the doors and light fixtures work would've been nice. I never knew the R16's were to be retired until they disappeared, so I was waiting for redbird R16's to show up. How foolish I was. They were allowed to die the undignified death that epitomized their entire service career. Sorry, but the way the R16's were treated ranks second on my list of transit crimes to the Jamaica Ave. el demolition, and it really, really riles me up.
Well if it bothers you so much, come to Kingston,NY and help out on R-16 6398. Almost fully restored, she needs all the help we can give.
Believe me, if I had transportation, I would ...
You are welcome to come up with us. We go up and gladly take along anyone who would like to go. Several other SubTalkers already do. E mail me or Engine Brake.
I just might do that ...
..are we going where I think we're going?
Trolley Museum of New York. In Kingston. About an hour an half up I87.
The R16's did get sort of a rehab in the 70's including all new door motors which was the reason for those ridiculous slanted panels. I never really got any enjoyment out of running them but at least when they started putting them in storage they kept the 6300-Westinghouse cars which were the better ones. They just never gave me the highball, roll down the road, I"m in command feeling.
I can understand your feelings as a lot of what I liked best were hated by some and loved by others. The IRT versions of the R16 were somewhat livelier [smaller car, same power] but none of The 16/17/21/22 could hold a candle to the R27/30 or the IRT equivalents..the present day redbirds.
All of this my humble opinion, but even if I didn't like the R10's there were good reasons they kept them instead. I'm also sorry the el thru to Jamaica was demolished. It was a neat ride.
Sure they were a tad on the slow side. But damn were the brakes great! Not to mention R-16's had other things going for them. A seat for the conductor and those cool control handles for the MDC. The light switch on the door frame was strange but convienient and I appreciated the retro door motors; no more bending over to cut out a door. The crosswise seating was comfortable but the plasic seats left something to be desired.
Speaking of which, if you remember on 6398, there is one bank of grids that E.N.Y. may have removed as a modification. There is an appropriate opening sealed on the external portion of the group switch box where the cabling from these grids passed into the box and I wonder if that is an explanation as to why they are classified as slow trains, westinghouse only. Perhaps The Train Dude or one with 1970's blueprints may be able to explain why it was necessary to remove an entire bank from the motor circuit.
I'm confused. You say the cables passed into the group switch
box for the grids? Aren't the grids in the same box?
The only major propulsion mod for the MCM cars was the time-delay
in switching to check the motor-generator fan speed.
6398 is a Westinghouse car, we don't have the forced air grid fan system. One bank of the grids was permantly removed from the bracketing and the holes in the group box where the associated cabling would have passed into the relays is sealed.
Oh, and all this time I thought it was a GE car. My opinion of
the car just went up significantly :) It's a unit switch group
or CAM control?
It was the last unit switch car. According to the documantation 6399 was the first cam car, as were the following R-17's. Believe it or not the Wh cars were the last to be delivered. There are builders inscriptions on some inner paneling with the markings "car#199". The GE cars numbered above 6398 came first.
The heat was great on them too. Especially on the 'flat-bottoms' when the M-G failed, (hehehehe)
I loved the R16 heaters too. But not in June which sometimes happened...LOL
Worse than that were R-6-x (Queens yard) cars whose heat would mysteriously come on in the summertime, especially at Rush hour. It always seemed that if a car had the heat on in the summer, then it would follow that the fans would also be off. Unbearable.
wayne
Guess an R6x is something I've never heard about. Inkidentally for most of the years I remember, until the last few years of these cars the R6 cars were all uptown and moved toward the end to Jamaica yard and the Concourse /Heights got all low number cars. As for the situation you describe unless there were modified cars [????] the R1-9 cars had no thermostats. Whatever heat or fans were on was done by the person who made the train up, turning things on manually.So again unless there was a type I didn't encounter it would have been human error.
Sorry if I confused you- what I meant by R-6-X was shorthand for
R-6-1, R-6-2 and R-6-3 inclusively.
I thought the Pullman R-6-2's were neat, with the different style GE fans (with the wavy blades) and fancy little scalloped lite bulb holders (like the ones in the D-Types). And those Pullman/GE cars were FAST! I had one, #1233, that I believe went about 55MPH on the Queens Express.
"Uptown" means Concourse Yard or 207th Street, mostly service on the "D" (also on "CC", "AA" and "BB"), correct?
wayne
Wayne, those books of yours are a wealth of information. The fans on the R6-2 were the GE DH type fans. They were not used again on NYCT cars until the R-9s #1650 - 1701. All others used the WH fans.
Hey Steve,
Wasn't the 1702-1802 order supposed to be stainless steel?
-Stef
Ah, THANK YOU! I THOUGHT the wavy-bladed fans were on a second group of cars! And that has answered my question. They made a funny sound when the ran, kind of a glglglglglglglglglg sound, that may have come from the bearings.
These were also widespread on the IRT LO-V's (Not the WF Steinways) as well.
And there is not ONE specimen of the R-6-2 ANYWHERE on the planet. For SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!!!!
wayne
The R10 cars had the most comfortable non automatic heat control. There were three switched for heating. Two banks for the passengers and the cab heater, which also controled the single seat heater behind the motorman's cab. The R27s weren't bad either but you never got comfortable, either too hot or no heat. I remember as a conductor, an asian lady getting off the Grand Street Shuttle and that little plastic red bag of fruit falling apart, with the plastic bag melting over the grilles and apples on the floor. The thermostats never worked on the newer cars as the R42s. The D line had hot cars or foggy windows but no comfortable cars.I can't think of a single car before the GOH or the R62 cars which ever worked right in the TA.
My understanding of subway car heat/ventilation/(later) air conditioning systems is that the pre-R-46 thermostats were mercury bulb units. I was told that the mercury would congeal at one end of the bulb or the other, so either the heat would never go on, or it would never turn off -- same for the AC on cars so equipped. R-46 and later cars (and the Redbirds retrofitted with AC as well as non-AC GOH cars) had/have electronic temperature sensors.
David
You know...the R-68's had real good "heat" before E cam. Hahahahahahah!
Would you be referring to 2579? Now with ECAM, will there be a marshmellow roast in rapid transit. Speaking of which, I'm told by a TSS that 9500 is back on the road.
I knew I wasn't imagining this. It's amazing what the doctors at 207th St can do after nursing an elderly car back to health.
-Stef
Prior to E-Cam, the problem with the Westinghouse controller was well documented. That's why we went to the E cam. In the old controller there was a device called the J/BDC. The BDC "Build Down Contactor portion was critical. As the car was coasting, which can be for several minutes at a time, the logic was supposed to sense the dynamic current, when it reached 140 amps, the J/BDC would close & short that current to prevent it from building any higher. Since this current was otherwise dissipated throught he braking grids this was critical since they can not handle high current for much more than one minute. When the J/BDC or the associated circuitry failed, these grids (#2 4 and ) overheated and melted, taking with it the wiring in troughs above. Westinghouse was never able to solve this problem so the TA opted to scrap the entire system. Incidently, this was not just a TA problem. Path had it too, opting for an unauthorized modification of the J/BDC. I bifurcated another portion of the circuit on one car (The FFR) and that helped too. In the end, the E cam won out.
I'm not familiar with the technical data but would that explain why on some trains, you have a local pullback, feeling like a one car handbrake condition on the Westinghouse when going to coast, and sometimes have a reading on the ammeters?
All cars have a coast current. Typically it should be 50 - 75 amps per truck. The trouble is when it gets higher than 140 amps per leg.
I have to agree, they were victims of the poor maintenance procedures of that period. It was a sad time, doors cut out all over the place, flat wheels, starting up with a loud BANG after a station stop when you'd wrap the controller around. Most of this stuff was corrected after a time, but a few car models died an undignified and early death, some or most splattered with graffiti. I'm sorry about the fate of the R-16's, I liked them as well...
I have to agree, they were victims of the poor maintenance procedures of that period. It was a sad time, doors cut out all over the place, flat wheels, starting up with a loud BANG after a station stop when you'd wrap the controller around. Most of this stuff was corrected after a time, but a few car models died an undignified and early death, some or most splattered with graffiti. I'm sorry about the fate of the R-16's, I liked them as well...
I heard some cars were bought back from the scrappers when the R-46s developed their well-documented truck cracking problems.
A total of 110 R-10s were fixed up and painted green. I wouldn't call it an overhaul as such; it was more of an interim measure to keep them running until the R-68s arrived. Wayne and I agree that those R-10s should have been kept or at least mothballed; most of them were still in good shape when they were finally retired. Unless, of course, you got one with flat spots on the wheels - oi gevalt!!
I still wish they could have run a train or two of them on the A until the end.
BTW, did you ever see the NY Times article from December 1986 which chronicled the slow and painful death of 6321?
Steve,
Could you please elaborate a little re: 6321's death?
Thanks
6321 was put out of its misery in early December of 1986 after repeated breakdowns even when used sparingly during rush hours. Blown motor-generator fuses, brake charging problems, malfunctioning doors, and finally four dead motors were among its problems.
The NY Times article went so far as to say it was "one of - if not THE - biggest lemons" in the car fleet.
I might still have the NY Times article of car 9000. It was a chronic switch box burnup and it had a major burnup in the Joralemon tubes north of Borough Hall. It was rewired many times and wasn't until 207 Street rebuilt it in the late eighties GOH program that seems to have put it's flame out for good. BTW, the GE SMS cars also CAN have that dynamic drag problem, as I found out operating a Flushing bound 9558, north motor a while back.
SCM & SCM-1 can easily have that problem. The CMRX (current measuring reactor) is a weak link in the GE group Switch box. Compounding the problem is that GE pots the unit in manufacturing so it can only ne checked by passing high current through it on a bench and measuring the output.
So the only way the TA will look to find this problem is through track testing? The signal dolly come to think of that also had this problem with G7460 before it was main shopped last. With a short train, I never called it in on the carpet as it gave me excellant control going downgrade through rivertubes. Sort of like applying the dynamic on an ALP-44 without the trainline to take up slack and to prevent an overspeed condition.
HAHAHAHA! Only you would think of those similarities.
Leave the thing connected. Take a spool of small wire (e.g. 24 ga)
and wrap 100 turns around the core of the CMRX, then use an adjustable
power resistor and the B+ supply to set up the desired test current
at a 1-100 scale, i.e. 1A simulates 100A of motor current.
The CMRX is potted so you can't get to the core. GE Test procedure is a bit more elaborate. Besides, you want to test the CMRX at the high end as well as the low end.
Besides, you want to
test the CMRX at the high end as well as the low end
Yes, quite, but this was in conjunction with a thread on cars
plugging in coast.
The CMRX is potted? I didn't remember that. So it's just a big
black box with two heavy-duty studs for the motor current to pass
through, and then 2 wires go back to the static cards? What can
go wrong with it? Is the oscillator circuit potted in the same
assembly or is it on the AY card?
No, but I've heard of that article.
BTW, I agree that the R10's were still funcional in 1989, but their day was due. They were simply too old-looking and too loud to keep running. The R30, OTOH, should still be running today.
No, but I have seen and read the account of the quick and painful death of R16 #6304, and the death of two of her passengers.
IIRC #6321 was the classic example of deferred maintenance.
wayne
I have that Times article on 6321, thanks to my sister. That poor car was breaking down repeatedly towards the end, and this occurred even after it was used sparingly during rush hours only. I can fax it to you if you'd like; if so, you can email me privately with your fax #.
The silver lining is that 100 R-16s were taken out of mothballs in 1978 (I think) to help out the R-46s, who were cracking up at the time.
The very cars that were supposed to replace the R-16s were instead REPLACED by the R-16s!!
Now THAT'S irony!!
--Mark
I thought the R68's replaced the R16's, as the R44 and R46's replaced all remaining R1-R9 cars ...
Yes. The R-16s were shuffled off to the Eastern Division when the R-46s replaced the last of the R-7/9s (and also when the budget cutbacks eliminated EE service on Broadway, since the R-16s were mainly used on the EE and GG in the early and mid 1970s), but since they were only in the early 20s in 1978, there was no way the R-46s were supposed to replace that fleet, as troubled as it was.
Much like the days when the R44's were pulled off the road after the rush hour and sent to the shops for various retrofits while the R9's were kept on line. It was supposed to be the other way around. I was in all my glory.
And with the pistachio green interior paint, and white ceiling paint peeling madly all over everything; axiflow fans spewing dirt and track dust all around, and those back-busting charcoal grey Fiberglas seats, which I believe the survivors are still wearing to this day, at least #6387 is. Man do they put a hurt on your back and your butt.
As slow and unreliable as they were in their later years, I have a soft spot in my heart for the R16. I even got to ride one on the "F" in Thru Express mode back around 1973. I don't think we ever got much above 35MPH.
I wonder how did the R16 perform in the 60th Street Tube on the downgrades?
wayne
They did very well when I rode them on the RR in 1985-86.
Not bad, but it always seemed like it took forever to get through the cut from QP and into the tunnel on the EE back in the 70s. Of course, by the time it got to Lex, it was back into its patterned slow speed, with the side-to-side rocking motion that was harmonicly balanced (front car left, Car 2 right, Car 3 left, etc.) and almost like a cartoon version of the way a train would move.
If you remember before 1992 when the 60 Street tubes had the bolted rails, there was a nice set of clickety-clacks at dead bottom, along with eroded roadbed and slow as hell timers. The old rulebook mandated that all under river speeds were not to exceed 35 MPH, but by the time you hit the bottom, most of those R27 and R32 cars didn't get that "shake the dust from the ceiling fan" stints that the R17s used to in the Joralemon.
Hello Stef. Thanks for the info on the R-17 Fan Trip. I had asked Lou about that trip. He says #6550 was in the yard when the special pulled into 180th St. Regarding your comment relative to finding enough R-16's to make an excursion, there's at least one more R-16, #6398. It's up in the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston.
Right, but I highly doubt it would make a return to NYC for an excursion. Transportation Costs among other things have to be considered.
-Stef
I don't know about that, but 6398 did move (albeit not under its own power) last October at the Trolley Museum of NY in Kingston.
--Mark
For those of you who don't watch Survivor, or have a TV in the same room as the PC, or are in the Mountain, Pacific, Alaskan, Aleutian or Hawaiian time zones, there will be a special chat tonight, at 8PM (the usual time). If you can't make it at eight, then make it later.
I've installed brand new Java chat software which I have complete control over. This has a number of advantages:
The new version solves the problem of the user list failing to update (or at least I think it does).
No more unnamed guests, the system has a login screen where you enter a name before connecting to the room.
The text in the chat window is black, not gray, and that can be changed at will.
I can change the features at will
I am no longer at the mercy of CJB.net.
To connect, connect as you always have using Subtalklive.com. Which is the same as the link at the top of the index (that remains unchanged).
You can also connect via an IRC client as you always have, although I don't see much of a point of doing that tonight as the whole purpose of this specially scheduled chat is to test the new client.
If you've bookmarked the version without the Namezero frame, you will have to change the url, the old one (chat.cjb.net/metrocard) will no longer work.
If you've bookmarked the version without the Namezero frame, you will have to change the url, the old one (chat.cjb.net/metrocard) will no longer work.
Correction: The old one will still work, but it won't be the new client (and I will not allow use of the old client, you will be booted, sorry).
So are you saying just the java client is upgraded and it still uses IRC (javairc.mircx.com) on the backend, for those of us who prefer to use non-java irc clients?
-Dave
Visited my local hobby shop last night and was greeted with a surprise as I entered. It was a 027 scale LIRR set of a MP-15 & Alco PA plus three coaches (one orange & two blue), price wasn't too bad either. I didn't buy because I have until Sept. 1st to clean up my Fast Food toy collection or the Director of Interiors will do it for me. Had to hide my new Blue Meannie so she didn't see it.
BTW, he also has a nice C Liner in LIRR colors, mine are in PRR.
Mr t__:^)
That set actually has an Alco FA, similar to what LIRR did use as power packs. The "PA" would be a lot longer, six-wheel trucks. In the NYC area, they were used by Erie-Lackawanna at one time, and a little further away by New Haven and also Delaware & Hudson.
There was such a set (called the "Greenport Scoot" by its manufacturer) on eBay recently and it went for over $300.00!!!
It has two blue-striped coaches and a red-striped one.
Actually 2 sets went on ebay about a week apart. Both had 2 car add-on coaches included.
That's the one and it's half the price you quote.
Mr t__:^)
Must be a second set involved, as I was watching such a set and its final price was $300.00. It started out at half that, but grew and grew and grew to double.
Actually, I was mistaken....that was one of the bids last time I checked while the auction was still in progress.
The final price -- $370.00 (eBay item #410396019)
The second set final bid was $255.00 (eBay item 402108938)
Looks like thet's a hot set to own!! Dunno what actual retail would be -- anyone????
The John's model shop is on No. Park Street in Rockville Centre.
He had the big box in the front of the store & when I asked the price he said "oh $150.00". He's probally in the phone book, so if you want that one go for it.
BTW, He doesn't open until noon.
Mr t__:^)
We lost a good freind. http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug20/mccart220821009.asp
Your link is no good.
-Hank
Since the link you posted doesn't work, who did they lose?
Joe McCathey passed away at age 48 of a heart attack. He is the one responsible for bringing streetcars to Kenosha,Wi. and was a frequent contributer to sub-talk.
Joe McCathey passed away at age 48 of a heart attack. He was the one responsible for bringing streetcars to Kenosha,Wi. and was a frequent contributor to sub-talk.
(Joe McCathey passed away at age 48 of a heart attack. He was the one responsible for bringing streetcars to Kenosha,Wi. and was a frequent contributor to sub-talk. )
What was his handle?
I believe it was JoeM, and he and I had some e-mail exchanges in the past few weeks. He will be missed, both on SubTalk, in Kenosha, and in the streetcar fraternity all over.
Always sad when someone dies so young and suddenly.
Here is the correct address for the article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
Thank you Bob.
Sad news indeed.
--Mark
The man who was shoved in front of a Northbound 6 Train at 51st street appeared on the Maury show called I can't believe I am still alive. He was the victim of a 12-9. I think he is the only survior so far that I can remember. The last Fatal 12=9's I remember are the Soon sin, and Kendra webdale. Soon sin was hit by a Northbound F going into 34th and Kendra was last year January being hit by a southbound N at 23rd street.
Is there still room on Sunday's Farewell to Redbirds Fan Trip? I checked upcoming events to see that the private car has been sold out. That's okay. I'll be happy to ride in another car. I was not sure of my schedule on that day, so I couldn't comit early enough to mail in for tx, and now it's too late. I thought I would try to arrive and purchase tx at the start for the extra $5. There was no email contact, so I'm hoping the organizer posts here.
Hope to see you Sunday.
There should be more than enough space to accomodate everyone. Pay the extra $5 and enjoy the day.
-Stef
Cool. Since the observation car will be in the rear, I'll try to see if I can cop some railfan window time in the front. Hopefully, people will share! :o) I'll try to say hello, perhaps at lunch at Coney Island or at boarding time, if SubTalkers are willing to make themselves known...
Cheers,
KP
Glad you brought that up.
I have prepared so far about a dozen name tags with the SubTalk Logo for those who have responded to a posting I did in late July.
If anyone wishes to have me make one up for them (nothing fancy - just the adhesive type) let me know directly at irt1904@aol.com.
Just let me know exactly what you want it to read. Most (not all) have just their SubTalk name. Some have their real name. Some have both.
Allan
So if you want to make me a nametag sure...whatever, lol.
--Clayton Parker--
I saw a Guardian Angel -- one of Curtis Sliwa's "red shirts", not a Roma Downey lookalike -- in downtown Chicago (in the Osco at State & Adams, not on the L/subway) and I was surprised. They were never much of a presence here in Chicago, and I hadn't seen one for a few years now anyway. I thought they went out with the end of Goetz-esque fear of blatant violent crime in the subways and "good" neighborhoods.
So what's the deal? Are they still around? Does Sliwa still have anything to do with them? Is *anyone* in charge of them, or can anyone buy a red beret and red shirt with the appropriate symbols on them and wander the L system here in Chicago or the subways in NYC trying to look sufficiently tough but concerned?
The organization -- such as it is -- is barely visable in NYC.
Even from its humble beginnings Curtis Silwa resorted to hype and people's preceptions regarding crime to garner much publicity. Now, with the city being safer -- both above and below ground -- the Guardian Angels are almost pointless.
I surely haven't seen any of those "red shirts" in at least three years.
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen them, but their ranks have dwindled. Sliwa has concentrated on his radio talk show host career in recent years.
Q trains were bound for 135th St (Central Park West) last evening rush hour. I wonder when that has happened before.
Signal problems between 50th St 6th Ave and 57th St. 6th Ave deverted the Q trains up CPW. The signal trouble is in the area under weekend/night construction, I wonder if someone blundered (cut the wrong wire >G<).
Q trains, normaly arriving pretty empty at 47th/50th St were packed coming from uptown made for an intresting ride home.
Neat! I bet that's the first time a Slant's been seen up that way since they were running on the "B".
How were they signed up?
wayne
Well, a few months ago slants were on the B to 168 when the C wasn't running (weekend disruption). But they ran local. They'd have to have run the Qs express to keep a huge gap from forming.
I would LOVE to see the slants on the CPW express dash once again. Of course, that brings back memories of that Easter ride on an A back in 1978. That train SMOKED.
The R44's smoke too ...
I would like to see a consist of R-32 on the CPW run with full field shunting. The R46 on the A express seem so slow passing local stations. It seems like we're going less then 20 MPH.
The Broad St subway in Philly did at least 62 when I was down there.
We reached 50 on a regular basis. AHH so good to ride on a subway that goes fast.
>>>The R46 on the A express .....<<<
Those are R-44s on the A.
Peace,
ANDEE
As a matter of fact, R-32s took over base service on the D when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I remember it well. They positively streaked along CPW, making that express dash look easy. I saw one such train zoom past 81st St. once, and while it didn't thunder the way the R-10s did, it just as fast. Then on July 1, 1968, I rode on a D train of R-32s along CPW. It was quick. I had been anticipating such a ride since the previous December, when I heard the conductor announce, "Next stop on this train will be 125th St." If it weren't for the fact we had a bus to catch, I would have stayed on that train. As it pulled out of 59th St., it kept gathering speed until it was hauling by the time the last car went by.
The R44's smoke too ...
I hope that the R-62s and R-68s don't pick up that filthy habit. They have many good years left without ruining their lungs.
LOL.
That train SMOKED.
Lawbreakers
Didn't they know that smoking in the subway is illegal?
I don't think that's what he meant.
-Stef
Let me rephrase that statement.
That train HAULED ASS.
I think he was being sarcastic.
I was not being sarcastic, I was making a pun.
OK. Say they've once again closed the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and openned the southside. The B and D to/from Brooklyn are now on Broadway, and possibly relettered (B becomes W, D replaced by extra Q service.)
Do the Sixth Ave B and D have to end at 34th St, like they did in the mid 1980's? I know from a recent topic that there's no turnaround at Grand Street (which seems weird) But it seems from looking at the track maps that there is a turnaround between West 4th and Broadway-Lafeyette. If I'm reading it right, the B and D could terminate at West 4th.
OK, it's only one express stop more. But that's the only place where "Sixth Avenue Express" has any meaning. I believe the maps STILL called the B and D that even in the mid eighties when they terminated at 34th, and thus made the same 6th Ave stops as the local (F). Granted Sixth Ave express is no Metroliner even when it is there...
Well, just wondering
:)Andrew
I don't think they use that becuase of the speed that trains gather up when on the express tracks. It's would mean that it's unsafe if a train speeding at 40+ mph has to slow down and stop with only one yellow signal preceeding 2+ reds. But, they can always activate the Wheel Detectors in the area.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
Service south of 34th St is pointless if the trains don't go to Brooklyn. It also wastes valuable subway cars.
The idea also is that at Herald Square passengers headed for Brooklyn can transfer from the IND to the BMT and continue their normal routes to the Brighton and West End lines. Once you get past 34th, there is no direct transfer to the BMT from the IND, so the only people affected are those going to West Fourth, B'way-Lafayette or Grand, and the MTA figures a shuttle is enough to take care of those passengers.
Once you get past 34th, there is no direct transfer to the BMT from the IND . . . .
I know you meant on the BMT Broadway line, but there is a connection between the IND and BMT at Essex/Delancy.
You're right about that, but from the Sixth Ave. express tracks there is no connection to the BMT south of 34th, unless you switch them over to the local track to get to Delancey
Well, Bronx B and D riders might want a one seat ride as far downtown as possible. And they're the only B division trains available in the Bronx.
Of course it's a minor point. I'm just wondering.
Andrew
My own feeling is: I can't wait! I work at 34th St. and live in the Bronx. I'll always get a seat on the way home (last time they did it I loooooved it!) I'll admit it's a purely selfish observation but sometimes things do go your way. It will be a pain in the ass when I go to visit freinds in Brooklyn.
Peace,
ANDEE
How many of them actually go South of 34th St, maybe to the Village, and thats it. I think the only people who will be inconvienced are those going to and from Brooklyn to Yankee Stadium
Exactly! And West 4th is right smack in the middle of the Village. It's only a few minutes south of 34th St, but the short 20 blocks make a big difference. 34th in midtown, but W 4th is downtown.
Why not turn one at Bway-Laff and the other at Second Ave. as once was done for years.
Are there turnarounds there? If there are then I'm all for it.
Andrew
Why? The trains would run almost empty south of 34th St.
Plus, confuse riders during the "first day adjustment" phase, people coming from upper 6th ave snd the Bronx would ignore the announcements unless they got booted off the train, saw all the big signs directing them to the Broadway line, and remember for the future. Extend it further, they'll get incredibly confused, somehow end up on the A or J or 6, not know where the're going, and do this for about a week before they bother to glance at a map.
With ridership up over the past couple of years, we know that the T.A. has a budget surplus. Should they spend it on renovations or should "WE" the [tax payer/ transit user] get a break in fare and throw back the money our way?
1. "We" don't know anything. As I've explained before, any "surplus" isn't actually an excess of revenues over expenses. It's less of a deficit than was anticipated.
2. Most capital expenses (which would pay for most "renovations") are not paid for out of the operating budget, which is where this "surplus" would be.
3. Doesn't Marty live in Canada? How is he part of "we?"
David
We received a number of discounts. I believe the fare should be raised to cover the rising costs of the labor contract and (where applicable) increased service. Government funding should be used for more system improvements and less debt.
3. Doesn't Marty live in Canada? How is he part of "we?"
Yes, he does, and it was a pleasure to meet him and his wife when my wife and I were in Montréal this past Monday. He's a dedicated subfan (it wasn't his fault that I didn't get to ride more of the Montréal system than I did - my wife and I were simply too worn out after over a week of touring to ride any more) and has been a user of the NYC system when he's been in town. When we met he was wearing his Yankees cap... oh well, we'll forgive him that one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Saw this scrawled in black marker above the motorman's window in the cab of car #9583 on my way home tonight (I guess this particular T/O forgot the bracket which keeps the door ajar only about an inch, so he had to run with it almost halfway open to enjoy some air conditioning, allowing me to make this out).:
"Tip of the day: Supt. [so-and-so] is a sneaky f**king pr**k."
Who knew graffiti was also an internal problem!
Was that on the 6 or the 7 line?
I once put a sign on a train when I got real angry. I wrote it on a piece of paper and taped it on a train. It said, "All scratchitti artists are idiots who should be put to death. Notice how this sign is removable." I know you guys are going to say it was wrong, and you're right. But I just got so tired of seeing my subways ruined, I couldn't help it.
Several times I used a labelmaker to put a sticker up onto something even worse than scratchitti (on a bus). WRAPS! It reads:
I like to see out the window on the way home, don't you? DOWN WITH WRAPS!.
I do this with express buses, because I pay $3 and expect a good view. I also do this with Q53s, since a ruined sunset over Jamaica bay (Bright Reds and oranges become dull browns and greys) is enough to drive anyone to be tempted to peel off the wrap (which is quite easy).
To Henry:
You don't pay $3 for a good view. You pay $3 to drive home!
When they clean the graffitis outdoor, we scratch the windows...so fuck artless people!
>>>When they clean the graffitis outdoor, we scratch the windows...so fuck artless people!<<<
It's been said before but bears repeating GRAFFITI IS NOT ART!
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, you have not the slightest notion about graffiti, when you say graffiti is not art!
Peace,
SPAWN
Nowhere in this definition of the word do I see anything about art,
Main Entry: graf·fi·to
Pronunciation: gr&-'fE-(")tO, gra-, grä-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural graf·fi·ti /-(")tE/
Etymology: Italian, incised inscription, from graffiare to scratch, probably from grafio stylus, from Latin graphium
Date: 1851
: an inscription or drawing made on some public surface (as a rock or wall); also : a message or slogan written as or as if as a graffito
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like Satan's Spawn is posting a very alternative point of view for this board.
Graffitti involves making life a little worse for lots of other people, to glorify yourself. It is a way for people with very little to be proud of just as themselves to feel a little better by putting down others. Weakness.
Art has a message. The only message of graffitti is "hooray for me, to hell with all of you."
Sounds like your talking about tagging. (which I despise as much as you do) While I agree that no graffiti belongs where it is, amidst the innumerable trash, I've seen a few "drawings" that I wished had been done on a proper surface.
When you look at this quote from Spawn's earlier post:
"When they clean the graffitis outdoor, we scratch the windows...so fuck artless people"
you can tell that he is not talking about any artwork that would compete with the Sistine Chapel.
Tom
Spawn is a retard
Don't insult retards like that...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't tell me I don't have the slightest notion about graffiti. I deal with it every single day for the last 30+ years and am tired of it. I am so tired of it that if I saw a cop electrocuting a graffiti artist on the third rail I would cheer the cop on.
Peace,
ANDEE
Contrary to my very public stand on the subject, there is one form of graffiti that I do enjoy although it is usually seen by the public only in photographs. That's the graffiti drawn on the inside of an inmate's cell wall at Rikers while he awaits trial and contemplates his own abuse at the hands of larger, more willful felons. No there's some graffiti that tells a story.
Couldn't agree with you more. Um...BTW when did you see this graffitti? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Only in photos, I can assure you!
1) There is nothing particularly artistic about the scratches on windows and panelling. Any idiot can run their keys up and down and left and right several times to form block letters.
2) If you want to scratch windows so badly, go scratch your own! That should be perfectly legal - they're your windows.
While I agree for the most part that scratchiti is kind of pointless, not to mention, ruins the views. There are the "LOOK AT ME! AREN'T I GREAT?" graffit pieces that are just scrawls drawn on the wall but then there are larger, pre-meditated pieces that, yes, sare illegal but are quite beautiful and elaborate. You seem to think just thugs do graffiti but not true. You have no real way of undertanding it, so instead you make speculations. I guess you have no way of truly understanding a lifestyle you know nothing about.
>>> there are larger, pre-meditated pieces that, yes, sare illegal but are quite beautiful and elaborate. .... You have no real way of undertanding it, so instead you make speculations. I guess you have no way of truly understanding a lifestyle you know nothing about. <<<
I have personally used "wall writing" as the definition of graffiti, and therefore equate graffiti with "tagging" rather than extensive murals. But no matter how much merit there is to the quality of the art in a mural, if it painted on someone else's property without the owner's permission, it is the unlawful appropriation of another's property, and it is, at a minimum, criminal trespass. Although that does not make the perpetrators "thugs", it does make them criminals. No amount of understanding of the lifestyle can change that.
Tom
I actually admire the elaborate, colorful artwork that used to grace some subway cars and public areas (and when I was very young I used to think of many of the scrawls as funny). And no, I don't necessarily think of them as thugs, just inconsiderate. But even if I do admire them I still don't approve of them. For one thing, the subway isn't there to write/paint on. The graffitti can become an inconvenience (esp, when still wet or covering windows) and yes, it does give the image of the city being out of control. Also, it just encourages others to put whatever scrawls they want on the cars, generally with a lot less thought to art. That being said, I probably don't fully understand the lifestyle but I have a pretty good understanding of what the result is.
DEFACING property, whether the DEFACEMENT shows artistic talent or not can result in a MUCH DESERVED CRIMINAL CONVICTION which will follow the artist throughout his life, diminishing opportunity and earning power. The public interest is best served by ERADICATING the graffitti lifestyle as much as possible. However, schools should work to identify those who can create beauty with a can of spray paint and channel that talent into lawful expression. PERMISSION is the difference between OUTLAW GRAFFITTI and ART which UPLIFTS the community.
Graffiti is definitely art!
It's much art as taking a crap on stage.
More. (I consider tagging as a different, lower practice entirely.) But most of us will agree that it is misplaced.
I agree, although the act of tagging is illegal. If this was done on the side of your house,it would vandalism because you did not agree to have this painted on your property so this is an illegal act.
"It's much art as taking a crap on stage."
If they did this in a public place they would get arrested, just like graffiti artists. They do it on stage where the owner of the place accepted and paid them for the art. This is how our artist should expose promote and market themselves legally. Not on the transit system where taxe payers like you and I get to pay for the cleaning.
The Writer's bench at 149th and Grand Concourse used to be a meeting place for our friendly subway artists. That was 15-20 years ago. Those days are gone now, give it up and let it sleep. Gulianni is quoated as saying that "Graffiti is a powerful symbol of a dangerous city out of control." He's right. Graffiti is art, it's just done in the wrong place.
Graffiti is art, it's just done in the wrong place.
Marty, I'll have to disagree with you on that one, albeit on technical terms: if it's done in the "right" place (as in one where the artist has permission to do it), then it's no longer graffiti. Being done in an inappropriate place is part of what makes it graffiti.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, it's still graffiti. There was a lengthy debate on this some time ago and that the definition of graffiti does not imply illegality.
"Being done in an inappropriate place is part of what makes it graffiti."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are two elements in this conversation.
"ART" the painting
"CRIME" the location, legal or illegal.
1. If done on canvas exibition to the public on the sidewalk in accordance with the city rules and regulation.
2. If the same mural done on that same city sidewalk yet done on a city owned bldg without accordance by city rules and regulations.
Would we not agree that the actual mural is art done by a painter a.k.a. an artist but that his canvas is what we are debating here. It hits home at Subtalk where for over a decade the artists used the transit system as canvas to promote their products instead of renting space in a leagal environement like a museum, loft or galary as standard practice would have it.
It is a great debate that still goes on after all this time yet with no answer, only subjective opinions on how we see this topic.
Marty..
Would we not agree that the actual mural is art done by a painter a.k.a. an artist but that his canvas is what we are debating here.
I certainly would agree that the canvas is what we are debating here. As to whether or not it qualifies as "art" regardless, that's another debate :-) (Kind of like whether or not those lambchops the other night qualified as food - no, wait, there's no debate there, they didn't come close. But the wine and the company were great!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the kind words and great company.
BTW: I'm not taking anybody's side here, just trying to get to the bottom of this topic and see why I'm so intrigued by it. Being a subfan I feel violated by the defacing of the system? Talking about it, I can get a better understanding. It is a complexe subject based on opinions, thoughts, likes, dislikes,and above all objective attitude towards the issue.
I was at the "LIVONIA" station on the L recently only to see a big four letter tag on the elevated stucture about 50 to 60 feet above ground.It makes me angry to see that there. That's not it's place, but the person who is so passionate about it's art to climb that high and risk themselves, I must wonder what they are thinking of. That's what intrigues me!
Let the debate continue....
marty.
Thanks for the kind words and great company.
BTW: I'm not taking anybody's side here, just trying to get to the bottom of this topic and see why I'm so intrigued by it. Being a subfan I feel violated by the defacing of the system? Talking about it, I can get a better understanding. It is a complexe subject based on opinions, thoughts, likes, dislikes,and above all objective attitude towards the issue.
I was at the "LIVONIA" station on the L recently only to see a big four letter tag on the elevated stucture about 50 to 60 feet above ground.It makes me angry to see that there. That's not it's place, but the person who is so passionate about it's art to climb that high and risk themselves, I must wonder what they are thinking of. That's what intrigues me!
Let the debate continue....
Marty.
Hey Spawn, Are you telling all of us you are a graffiti artist? If so, I was wondering when you and your crew were going to come out of the woodwork and defend your practice here on subtalk. I'm sure many people here would like to ask you questions like is it lack of money that makes you tag public and private places around the city instead of paying for your own bilboards like every other business that is advertizing it's product or service.
Let me know, I'm quite interested!!!!
Marty.
Ahh, whad'ya expect from a fish?
Peace,
ANDEE
You don't pay $3 for a good view. You pay $3 to drive home!
When they clean the graffitis outdoor, we scratch the windows...so f*** artless people!
Keep up the graffiti, and you might find yourself sharing a cell at Rikers Island with some buffed-up thug who'll give you a whole new perspective on the word "f***"!
HAHAHAHA. Good One!!!Oh, this is getting nasty, but HAHAHA good one Peter.
HAHAHAHA. Good One!!!Oh, this is getting nasty, but HAHAHA good one Peter.
That reminds me of an episode with my brother when we were younger. He got caught shoplifting at Kmart. The security guard who nailed him had me and my mother in his office with him when he informed my then 10-y-o brother that if he kept stealing, he'd wind up in jail, "with a big ugly black guy named Bubba who'll f*** you up the a$$"
I dropped my jaw, my mom smacked my brother across the face, and thanked the guard. (No, it wasn't the first time he was caught. It was the first time he got threatened.) My Mother's response was interesting. I figure I wouldn't use that language around a 10-y-o, let alone while his Mom was in the room.
But he learned.
-Hank
His IP address suggests he's connecting from a Swiss node.
It's all those rats deserve, ARTISTS, BAH!!!
First - your "public be damned" viewpoint shows total ignorance.
Second - your manner of speaking shows total ignorance.
Third - The use of obscenities shows total ignorance.
However, if you truely believe that what you do is okay, let me know where and when you'll be plying your art next. I'd like to see it first hand.
Apparantly, you didn't even understand the object of my post. I do not utterly despise scratched windows, at least one can see out them. Wraps are those big ads that cover the entire side of a bus (incl. the windows). While current TA tactics will soon make scratched windows a thing of the past, ads blocking the view will keep coming and coming.
You may not like them, but hey, your ride is subsidized. Anyhting that reduces the transit sectors need for tax dollars, is welcomed by many, no matter how ugly. It's all about the revenue.
-Hank
I thought this site had higher standards than the posts allowed by Spawn. I'm very suprised David allowed the language he used. Oh, and by the way, Spawn, what would your mother say if you scratched the windows at home? I'll bet you can scratch big words, but in school you wrote as good as the rest of the savage bastards we have in the school system.
I don't "moderate" the board before the fact... Stuff gets posted without my prior approval; sometimes people can't control the urges to get out of control, as we all know.
-Dave
7. We left 42/GC around 5:15 or 5:20 Flushing bound.
Being an avid NYCTA enthusiast, I have been eager to ride one of the new #2 trains. Today I got my wish -- but it was not what I had hoped for. When I boarded the train my first thought was: did a committe of blind people design this car? (6307) Visually, in my opinion, these are the least attractive transit vehicles ever purchased by the City of New York. I was struck by the dull uninterrupted off-white walls and harsh lighting. Then, the seating, although a nice shade of blue was really a step backwards from the shaped seats we have had ever since the R-46. Why have we gone back to these uncomfortable benches? And then there was the constant babbling of the PA system. Maybe the designers were deaf also. I could barely concentrate on the book I was reading for the repetitious torrent of loud superfluous information. It was worse than the Altanta airport people-mover. And has the inability to pass between the cars of the train, which we have had to learn to live with in the B division, now come to infect the IRT also? Eeek! I hope some design modifications will be made before the IRT system is dominated by these new and dubious creatures.
Bench seats were requested by the public. They had trouble fitting into the bucket seats on the R-62/62A cars.
Announcements are mandated by the Americans with Disabilities Act. The digitized announcements say everything that's supposed to be said; perhaps the Conductors we normally hear don't.
The R-142 and R-142A cars (nominally) come in five-car units. People can pass between cars within a unit, but not between units.
David
We say them, we just don't drone on about it.
For example:
This is 42nd Street, transfers are available to the 1,2,3,7,9,A,C,E,N,R, and Shuttle. This is a Queens bound R train, 49th Street is the next stop. Stand clear of the closing doors please.
Long and wordy isn't it? Annoying to listen to for a long trip as well. Try saying it all day long. What most of us do is typical New York.We say:
42nd. Transfer to ACENR123479 and the shuttle. 49th is next. R to Queens; stand clear of the doors.
Big difference right? Same information content but a lot less annoying to crew and passenger alike. I have yet to hear a supervisor complain, and I would becasue I am a union rep.
But since the people who designed the R-142 never consulted the union about these matters we all suffer for it.
Having ridden the upgraded Chicago L cars with the constant PA chatter I find it most irritating myself.Especially with the ever so perfect voice that's been canned.One thing I find interesting is that the PA's sound perfectly clear now. They used to be a garbled mess.Did they get all new PA systems? Personally I'd rather hear individual conductors and an occasional sense of humor like one guy at Wrigley Field when loading was going too slow: '"come on you cubbies, lets move it". But conductors are few on CTA.
I haven't ridden an R142 but saw one in trials with the lights on, and I agree they are way too bright inside.
There are no conductors on CTA L trains anymore. The entire system is now OPTO.
To be honest, on many a non-rush-hour train, and every late-night train (unless there's a G.O. in effect), this is the announcement I always hear at a given stop:
We're being considerate of the sleeping passengers. (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
LOL :o)
Not all bench seats are equally uncomfortable. The benches in the redbirds are much better than the R142A's. (I have not ridden the R142 yet. Is the R142 seating the same as the R142A?)
The worst benches are the flat ones in the slant R-40s. But side benches in general are better than the bucket seats which protrude into standee room and make navigation on and off the middle of the car in rush hour that much more a pain in the rear. This is why people don't "step in." Well, that and general obstinance.
Bucket seats have nothing to do with the transverse seats.
Now I would have preferred transverse benches (a la everything before R-27 and the R-110A), but not for the IRT.
"Bucket seats have nothing to do with transverse seats" except for the fact that the only "transverse" seats I have seen on the cars in service today are the orange and yellow bucket style seats, such as those on the R46, which is the car I was thinking of when I mentioned the difficulty in maneuvering. And yes, I do realize that the R46 has a combination of "bench" and "transverse" seating. I just think this design is not ideal.
eric... if your handle c-49 refers to what i think it does, then we are in agreement that the nycta hasn't had a decently appearing transit vehicle since the venerable c-49 mack buses...
i am not one of the defenders of the new cars, but i must make two comments relative to your remarks...
1st comment relative to one of your remarks: on the bombardier cars that i rode back a couple of weeks ago, you can walk from car to car... only one of the door handles unlatches, if i remember the latch on the right door...
2nd comment relative to another of your remarks:
you said: "I could barely concentrate on the book I was reading for the repetitious torrent of loud superfluous information."... you're a railfan, and your reading a book while you're riding a brand new subway car?... you should be looking out the window, or checking the map locator... unless.... you were reading a book about the old bmt subway cars or the r1/9 subway cars... or if you like, i will send you a copy of my r-9 audio tape, and you can listen to some real sounds instead of the muffled characterless sounds of the new equipment...
remember
c-49 macks rule the world
r-142's are bland
I don't like those round windows in the end doors too much. They could have picked a better color than that 5% pearl grey, which is almost white.
Maybe they should have made porthole windows in the end doors like those in the R15.
wayne
Ugliest cars is just an opinions. The ugliest car from the outside is an R-40, from the inside the Redbird. This isn't for all time, though.
THANK YOU, Pigs! The ugliest of all subway cars is in reality a great thing of beauty in the eye of the beholder, its abject ugliness nonwithstanding. R40s are profoundly ugly, and therefore they are beautiful.
wayne
But are their seats comfortable? Which is it, the R-40 or the R-42, that has the extra-uncomfortable seats?
>>>Which is it, the R-40 or the R-42, that has the extra-uncomfortable seats? <<<
Some say it's the R-40s.
Peace,
ANDEE
As much as I liked running the R40's I'd say their seats were awful .The R42 wasn't as good handling but the seats were far more comfortable.
This is what happens when you forget that famous caveat: those who forget history are condemned to relive it. Any one remember the R-44 debacle?
Prediction: the annoying announcements will eventually be cut back. They will never be removed however. It would undercut the TA's ultimate aim of getting rid of conductors.
Prediction: the annoying announcements will eventually be cut back. They will never be removed however. It would undercut the TA's ultimate aim of getting rid of conductors.
It's worth knowing that the automated announcements on the LIRR bilevels have largely though not entirely disappeared.
But the R-142 announcements have not malfunctioned as much as the LIAR.
And the TA has better maintenance and quality control than LIAR.
And the TA has better maintenance and quality control than LIAR.
Quite an accomplishment, from what I hear.
Well, as high up on the C/R list as I am (#227), I hope that by the time that day comes I would have taken and passed the T/O test.
wayne
Has anyone ever heard of an automated announcement system that was not annoying? The only one that I can think of is in the Moscow subway... The announcer speaks like a regular conductor would have.
...welcome to the redbird club, Eric!
Last two times I was in Atlanta (probably about 5-6 years ago), I used the people mover. I noticed one car had announcements in a normal voice, while another had announcements in a computer-generated Cylon voice. When I spoke to some colleagues in Atlanta about it, they told me that a survey had been taken, which found that people actually preferred the Cylon voice!
By your command,
Bob Sklar
Atlanta's People Mover trains are virtually identical to the ones we have at Denver Int'l Airport. The big difference is the lack of tunnel lighting in Atlanta. It's like being on a train of R-1/9s with no headlights. One smart thing they did in Atlanta was to include a walkway tunnel as well in case the trains malfunctioned. United Airlines is considering putting in a walkway tunnel between Concourses A and B in Denver, something which should have been done when the airport was built. Not to mention extending it to Concourse C.
I prefer the Cylon voice, too. I still have everything that voice said memorized. They got rid of it around 1996. Now it's a normal human voice, and it says a lot less than the Cylon voice. They installed halogen tunnel lights about a year ago, but they are only used when the trains aren't running in the middle of the night.
Those halogen lights must have been installed after June of last year, which was when I was in Atlanta.
What happened to the R-142 schedule? I want to try to catch it again Friday. Is that schedule still accurate?
Train Buff Headquarters
Seen last friday, 96th Street, Northbound 2 at 545pm
Seen today, 110 CPW, Southbound 2 at 610pm
I said "seen" not "ridden".
This evening I was on the 6:10pm train out of Penn Station. The train arrived to all stations up until the Greenvale station. After passengers were let off at the station, the train proceeded to leave, but started off very slow out of the station until it reached a midway point between that station and Glen Head. At that point, the train stopped cold. We stayed there stuck on the train for at 30 minutes. We were then told they had problems with the brakes and they where going to try something to else. They managed to make the train move foward, but at very slow pace. While they moved the train, they made an annoucement that the train was being put out of service and that everyone had to get off at Glen Head. There was no annoucement of any buses or other trains to pick us up.
It would seem that these "new" trains are very unpredictable and possibly dangerous since they had a fire last week in the East River tunnel which I was on.
What are the commuters to think now?...was this a foolish mistake to buy this equipment without proper testing and training?
Someone should be fired for this....
What are the commuters to think now?...was this a foolish mistake to buy this equipment without proper testing and training?
It was a mistake to buy, period. Electrification and an expanded MU fleet would have been best. Since they didn't see that as an option, they should have gone with standard engines, such as GE Genesis dual-mode units, pulling regular (not bi-level) coaches. For whatever reason, they had bi-level coaches and proprietary dual-mode engines on their minds since the prototype set of the early 1990s, and probably before.
Someone should be fired for this....
Prendergast, the (ex-)president, ran off to Europe.
Watch the crap!
Mark
One ex-LIRR exec is down here running the VRE.
Are the VRE double-deckers lemons?
The VRE double-deckers are manufactured by Kawasaki. MARC allowed VRE to exercise their option on more cars -- they are the same cars that MARC runs, hopefully by now debugged!
The VRE DD are OK. I think the LIRR problem is the EMD locomotives which are custom built to LIRR specs. VRE uses off the shelf rebuilds (including two Amtrak leased F40) to power the train.
I'm afraid that these days any time you try to make any changes, the NIMBYs come out of the woodwork. Last year I was in Stonington, Ct. and there was a war raging over the electrification of the NY-Boston AMTRAK line. Could you imagine the scene if the pro-electrification and the anti-electrification factions fought it out ove the Montauk branch in Islip one Sunday. We could put the WWF out of business and let the public be damned either way.
According to a club on Yahoo dealing with LIRR commuters, DM 515 had some sort of generator fire near Port Jeff last week. Suppossedly, the damage is so severe it's being scrapped!
I'm curious as to why the New York area transit services (but then we don't hear much about Metro North) and Amtrak get so many lemons. You never hear much about this anywhere else in the country.
IMO it is because the MTA has become such a top heavy organization loaded with people who have no business running mass transit or who even know what it is. Hell, they all have company cars. All they are interested in is getting contracts for their relatives, friends, etc.
If there was more promotion from within the ranks this situation would improve.
Peace,
ANDEE
Another point that should be made is accountability. None of the board members use any of the transit services that they oversee. They are ALL given limos to drive around at their convenience. Also, the members are not elected by the public they are supposed to serve which means they are far removed from any public support.
The terms never, always, none and all should be avoided because I seriously doubt that the situation is as absolute as you make it sound. In addition, they likely travel over the MTA Bridges and Tunnels - also part of the empire they oversee. The real issue is, does not using a facility make you less accountable? I don't think so. It may make you less aware or less affected but not less accountable. The true accountability though is in the people who write the specifications and who accept cars that are inherrantly defective. The MTA Board members sign off on multi-million dollar purchaces but usually do not have the technical expertise to evaluate the mechanical aspects of the purchase. All they know is the thing looked good on paper.
re MTA board members' non-use of transit
The terms never, always, none and all should be avoided because I seriously doubt that the situation is as absolute as you make it sound. In addition, they likely travel over the MTA Bridges and Tunnels - also part of the empire they oversee. The real issue is,
does not using a facility make you less accountable? I don't think so. It may make you less aware or less affected but not less accountable.
Maybe so, but I still believe that every person in a high position of authority over a transit system should be required to use the system on a regular basis. I fail to see any reason whatsoever why the board members should get "company" cars.
You will get no argument from me there. I use mass transit 3-4 days per week at least. Hence, I know what's doing in my area of concern. T
While absolutely NOT defending either poor spec. writers, or QA officials at the TA, in fact others have been similarly shafted. I believe the Kawasaki double deckers for MARC sat in the yards for some months before the prototypes were sufficiently tweaked. More recently see threads about the "wonderful" Bredas being built for Boston.. A year and half late and counting! Oh and they derail, skid on wet fall leaves,... Bredas for SF took a while to pass muster, and for that matter, some MUNI riders would say they are rolling junk. (Some of the most annoying features are apparently within the written specs, they just demonstrate that the spec writers should be janitors.
And I thought Philadelphia's M-4s were bad. And I thought the R-46s were bad.
Can anyone name any cars that were scrapped so early in their years for reasons other than
A. crashes
B. Events that were not the fault of the transit authority or the car maker.
I was once on a C-3 train that went even worse than yours (so bad the C/R decalred "NO TICKETS WILL BE COLLECTED". At least you had 2 engines. This is what happened with mine:
3:06 train leaves OB at 3:40 (engine 406).
3:43. Train stops cold in SINGLE TRACK SECTION! Emergency lights come on. We hold up train headed to OB until we "fix" the problem (after the "Oh sh*t this is really bad" over the radio, a few minutes later I hear "That'll hold her for a few more hours").
4:15, train stops dead outside Glen Head. C/R had seen me listening to the radio and closed the panel (damn!). Someone suggests "Maybe get another train to push us?" C/R: "They'd never do that."
5:15, I hear over the PA: "We're going to attempt to push this train with the one behind, at the next stop, you are all to leave and board that train." Over the radio, they can't figure out what brake to release, and how. Both bathroom cars undesirable to ride in (toilets don't flush on emergency power). Heat becoming scarce (this is winter). Smokers were allowed to get off the train to light up.
5:30, we're on our way, doing a hearty 6 MPH! We get to Glen Head, C/R yells over external PA "DO NOT BOARD THIS METAL MONSTROSITY! GET ON THE OLD TRAIN BEHIND." We all get on the train behind, train has one of those 100 series engines and an F-7-A, plus 5 coaches. We continue down the line (Making all the stops!) People think the new train is pulling the older one, I correct them. Lights flicker profusely, can hear the engine straining pushing 4 C-3s, a DE30AC, an F-7-A, and 5 coaches in front of her, filled with passengers from both trains.
7:05, We arrive at Jamaica, the trains are 3 and 2 hours late.
Earlier that day, the engine (forgot #)pulling the Greenport shuttle had died repeatedly (got to Greenport 5 mins before departure time, stayed there for 1/2 hour while crew went to town), the toilet was broke and the A/C was stuck on (remember this is winter). Plus, there was a broken rail we had to go over. We got back to Ronkonkoma in time for our connection, which was held for us.
When exactly is the south side of the bridge going to open, and will there be service over the new Queens connection when it does? I hope the North side of the bridge doesn't take as long as the South side has. :(
South side will open June 1st, 2001 (Or at least the car lane closest to it, according to DOT's site).
The other night I had a chance to watch a 1990 movie entitled "Company Business" (espionage drama, Gene Hackman & Mikhail Baryshnikov [sp?]). Much of the action took place in Berlin and Paris; quite a lot of it took place on the Berlin U-Bahn.
There was supposed to be a prisoner exchange down in the U-Bahn. All parties entered at Heidelberg Platz station which is on the U1 line. The station used actually was Heidelberg Platz -- from there the continuity/authenticity went downhill. They were in a control tower (which I believe was very phony, the track board was unlike anything I have ever seen and just looked typically "Hollywood" plus the tracklayout was unlike anything in Berlin) and the powers-that-be instructed Hackman and Baryshnikov to get on the train there and travel four stations to the point where the exchange of prisoners was to be made.
Trouble is, they went four stations....on four different lines, all in supposedly the same train!!! The train (BVG car 805 showing) supposedly passed through "Deutsche Oper" station (line U2), "Jannowitzbreucke" (line U8) and the exchange supposedly took place in the tunnels at Alexanderplatz (line U5). I say it was line U5 as there was definitely under-running third rail in the tunnel and trains of the 2200 series stored in a four-track tunnel -- definitely the U5 west of the Alexanderplatz station.
When the train passed through the "Deutsche Oper" station it was a two-track, island platform station. The REAL Deutsche Oper is a four-track, double-island station. When it passed through the "Jannowitzbreucke" station, there was still over-running third rail. NOT SO....Line U8 is one of the lines of the under-running third rail (and larger train stock).
In some scenes, when they show the train racing through stations and tunnels, there are no rear lights. In other scenes, both rear headlamps are lit. And in many other scenes yet, only one of the rear headlights is lit. And the same train was supposedly waiting to return the CIA people back to Heidelberg Platz; on the return trip car 827 was shown.
There was one outdoor scene at night with a train passing on an elevated structure, but it was an S-Bahn (suburban) train as it had four door sets per car. Unfortunately, they didn't show a single Metro scene in Paris other than a station entrance kiosk.
I'm surprised they didn't film the whole damn subway segment of the movie in Toronto!!!
Just goes to show, it's not only NYCTA subways that get screwed up by Hollywood.
I guarantee I wouldn't have known the difference.:-)
BTW, which of Berlin's lines had the closed stations under what was then East Berlin? I understand those stations have since been reopened.
The present U2 line was "broken" into two sections in 1961 when the city was divided by the wall. The west section then had its east terminus at Gleisdreick; the east section had its western end at Thalmannplatz (which is now Mohrenstrasse). There was a section in between these stations that was basically abandoned and that included Potsdamer Platz station. (East Berlin trains would be stored in this station though it was sealed up during the 1961-1988 period.)
The present U1/U12/U15 line was basically abandoned east of Schlesisches Tor (to Warschauer Breucke). At the time of the split of Berlin, this was part of the now non-existent U3.
There were also some stations in East Berlin that were closed but the West Berlin trains still ran through them. I've got a video that shows this (Great Metros of the World).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> The present U2 line was "broken" into two sections in 1961 when the city was divided by the wall. <<<
Steve;
IIRC that was true in 1962 when I was there. But when I was there in 1978, the line was running again, but passed through the East Berlin stations without stopping. The East Berlin stations were brightly lit, but had two armed border guards on the platforms.
Tom
The source I have here (now that I read further through) mentioned that the skipping through stations under East Berlin was done on the U6 and U8 lines.
This situation was depicted in the "Company Business" movie, at the Jannowitz Bruecke station, which is on the U8.
Funny thing is, the movie was filmed in 1990 -- but Berlin was reunified in 1989. Maybe the process hadn't been completed on the U-Bahn when the movie was filmed.
The Berlin Wall ceased to exist in November of 1989. More specifically, that was when the border was thrown open. It took a few months to actually dismantle it. Reunification took place on Oct. 3, 1990.
Remember Rowan and Martin's Laugh-in, when they looked at the news (past, present, and future)? They came to within one month, in 1969, of actually nailing the opening of the border on the nose. On top of that, on one of the first shows in early 1968, Rowan made a reference to "President Ronald Reagan" in 1988. Little did they know.
Irresistible Lure of Subways Keeps Landing Impostor in Jail.
I'm glad they didn't blame railfans in general. This is strange, compulsive behavior. What can you possibly do with this guy? We hsan't actually hurt anyone, but anyone who continually breaks the law like this could create a dangerous situation, and then what?
Railfans have snuck into restricted places, and stolen petty stuff as souvenirs. I don't know any railfans personally who have ever actually moved equipment without the help (and supervision) of a transit worker friend.
Darrius is a very strange man. Highly intelligent but surely is in need of psychiatric help. Problem is he has hurt no one (yet) or himself, so how high on the psychiatic priority list could he be? He is a former E.R.A.er yet has not been seen at a meeting in many years. He just loves trains and buses (why buses I do not know). As you know there is a big difference between being a railfan and being a "FOAMER" or a "F.E.R.N.". Too often both get lumped in together and that is not fair. But like the saying goes "Nobody said life was fair". It is just another cross in life that a normal railfan has to bear. Lets hope Darrius never accidently hurts anyone. If he does the term railfan will be worse than mud.
"He is a former E.R.A.er"
Emphasis on FORMER, please. He was tossed out after he was caught trespassing in Sunnyside Yard and insisted that he was authorized to be there by an "employee" of ERA named "Ken Erlitz." ERA has no employees, the name "Ken Erlitz" appeared to be an combination of the names of two prominent ERA members, and nobody acting in an ERA capacity can authorize anyone to be in an otherwise unauthorized area of a rail facility.
Neither the ERA nor the New York Division-ERA condone or tolerate such behavior as has been exhibited by Mr. McCollum on several occasions over the past twenty years.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Too bad about this kid...
He is a rare instance of a railfan gone amok by calling attention to
himself. Most "unofficial" TA workers blend into the woodwork, do
their thing for years and never get into any trouble. If they gave him
a job, he probably wouldn't vandalize any train cab floors.
I'm glad they didn't blame railfans in general. This is strange, compulsive behavior. What can you possibly do with this guy? He hasn't actually hurt anyone, but anyone who continually breaks the law like this could create a dangerous situation, and then what?
What bothers me about the siutation is not so much that McCollum keeps imitating transit workers - no, it's not right, but he's never caused any injuries or damages - but that, at age 35, he has never held a job. He's an admittedly eccentric but not atypical example of what Fred Siegel has termed a "conforming nonconformist," the sort of freeloader who knows how to play all the angles in order to live off the taxpayers. Conforming nonconformists are way too common in New York and are a large part of the reason why the city's future is far bleaker than anything you'll find in the Sunbelt.
He's an admittedly eccentric but not atypical example of what Fred Siegel has termed a "conforming nonconformist," the sort of freeloader who knows how to play all the angles in order to live off the taxpayers.
I don't see it that way. Lots of people play a system. sometimes without even realizing that it is separate skill.
I see quite a few kids in Special Ed (mostly Autistics) in ordinary situations. Much of their behavior seems unexplainable unless you know the disability, in which case it seems almost stereotypical.
My unprofessional opinion is that Darius suffers from a disorder with a compulsive component. His failure to ever hold a regular job reinforces this. It's unfortunate that he has reached adulthood without a diagnosis. Since he's not violent, therapy might keep him out of a jail, an institution and trouble.
My unprofessional opinion is that Darius suffers from a disorder with a compulsive component. His failure to ever hold a regular job reinforces this. It's unfortunate that he has reached adulthood without a diagnosis. Since he's not violent, therapy might keep him out of a jail, an institution and trouble.
While McCollum's elevator may not reach the top floor, he's surely not completely mental. He could get off his posterior and work if he really had to. Point is, he doesn't have to. While it's possible that he's leeching off Mom and Dad, something that could of course happen in the Sunbelt, more likely's he's been engaging in the time-honored, (almost) only-in-New York practice of feeding off the public trough.
While McCollum's elevator may not reach the top floor, he's surely not completely mental. He could get off his posterior and work if he really had to.
If that's your story, you stick to it.
My unprofessional opinion is that Darius suffers from a disorder with a compulsive component.
I'm no doctor either, but I'd tend to agree with you. It's sad. It is a form of compulsive disorder, and not a common one at that. At first, people didn't believe this "Internet thing" could be compulsive, either, but to some, it can be. In a similar vein, these people are also "looking to belong".
--Mark
I should lay off the social issues but I hate to tell you how many are living off the system in a lot of rural and semi-rural areas; not only welfare but SSI and getting more in benefits and medicals than I made as an engineer.Percentage wise too many.
In another light I'll mention my first summer as a conductor on the Dtrain, 1965. A few intervals ahead of me one Sunday a train of R1-9 (easy to do this with those old door controls) departed Coney Island (Culver line then) with M/M aboard, doors closed , he got indication and the 2-long buzzers highball and off they went. When the conductor was ready to board his train was gone. The train got as far as Church Ave. with door operation normal, the kids who played conductor bailed off there. Had to admit even though wrong and unsafe it was almost funny.
Those kids must have scoped out what the conductor did, especially if they even remembered to give a highball. Say what you want, I still fantasize about assuming the position on one of those trains.
[Say what you want, I still fantasize about assuming the position on one of those trains.]
Well, head up to the Shoreline Trolley Museum on Columbus Day weekend and you might get the chance to do just that on car 1689 (the beautiful R-9). All of their New York equipment (trolleys as well as subway cars) will be brought out for this special day.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, I probably mounted those steps a thousand or more time. It was a neat feeling getting up just before the train stopped, and riding the 3 car lengths when getting under way as required by rules. Then rattling the caps a few times to say hi to a brother rail on another train or a girl on the platform that looked good.
I had my days I couldn't stand to lay off sick and worked with flu, sinus infections etc... think back on it now it was scary that I could have let myself slip between cars!
What a mental case! Good article
Peace,
ANDEE
Paul it sounds like this character suffers from OCD.
OCD = Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. A good example of this is a person who will wash their hands repeatedly until they are raw. The people who do this don't realize what they are doing.
I think this Darius guy falls into the same category as he does not see a problem with what he is doing which is repetitive anti-social behavior.
I'm no shrink, but it surely sounds like OCD.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, for sure he has some kind of compulsive disorder. Transit may only be its focus, rather than the other way around.
If they can put this guy in Rikers Island, they can spring for some psychiatric help. Until they get a DX, he'll keep doing this every chance he gets.
I think it's inevitable that one day people will get hurt even though he doesn't intend it. The fallout will hit every railfan.
If they can put this guy in Rikers Island, they can spring for some psychiatric help.
The second "they" = "taxpayers."
If they can put this guy in Rikers Island, they can spring for some psychiatric help.
The second "they" = "taxpayers."
The taxpayers don't pay for Riker's Island?
The taxpayers don't pay for Riker's Island?
Of course they do ... it probably costs more to keep a criminal in prison for a year than it does to send a student to an Ivy League university for a year.
One way or another, McCollum's "hobby" is going to end up costing taxpayers a lot of $$$, not to mention the atrocious image* it gives railfans.
* = human nature being what it is, most non-railfans (in other words, the vast majority of the population) probably will consider all railfans to be at least a little bit strange.
What is the date and title for the original news article?
Of course, what newspaper?
It's in today's New York Times.
And, today only, the link in the original post in this thread works.
Yes, The New York Times policy is read it today for free, or pay and get it from the archives.
One of the suits here e-mails transit related articles to a mangt group within the company, it's his sneaky way of seeing who is using their e-mail, I answered him on this one, so he now knows about me (actually he already knew). One of my reports is sent via e-mail with an attachment, my test is to see who grabs one of the few paper copies and runs to the copy machine rather than "opening" my copy.
Mr t__:^)
Hi, David,
Irresistible Lure of Subways Keeps Landing Impostor in Jail by Dean E. Murphy, New York Times, August 24, 2000.
In response to Peter Rosa's points, I believe this is not a railfan who has simply "gone over the line" or "loves his hobby too much."
I believe his behavior is response to a psychiatric disorder. It only manifests itself in railfan-like behavior.
An analogy might be volunteer firemen, common in some parts of the northeast. Some do it as a civic responsibility and/or for the social activities. Many enjoy fire fighting in itself. Some are fire buffs. But every couple of years, you get a wacko who sets fires and then goes out with the company to put it out. This doesn't reflect on volunteer firemen or fire buffs in general.
In response to Peter Rosa's points, I believe this is not a railfan who has simply "gone over the line" or "loves his hobby too much."
But as long as the media types him as a railfan, that "image" will be spread amongst the rest of us law abiding railfans to some extent.
--Mark
Considering the NY Times recent article on railfans, you think they might actually draw a clearer line. Today's article and the railfan one of a few weeks ago were written by different reporters which might account for the blurry line but since I think it was Mr McCollum's switch throwing activity earlier this year that prompted the railfan article in the first place you might think they'd make sure a more definite line was drawn in todays article.
It might also help if mention was made of prominent transit professionals who have been railfans. J. William Vigrass, W. Graham Claytor and George Krambles come to mind immediately, but there are many many others.
Aside from your quote, "These poeple should be locked up," in reference to the non-law-abiding folks who break laws around trains, trainyards, and train infrastructure, the railfan article a few weeks ago seemed somewhat snide it its view of those of us who share this comomon interest in trains. It sort of laughed at us, IMO, which I didn't appreciate.
But I got over it. :o)
When people laugh at me for liking trains, I show them this post. The 3000 threads usually shut them up.
LOL
In response to Peter Rosa's points, I believe this is not a railfan who has simply "gone over the line" or "loves his hobby too much."
I believe his behavior is response to a psychiatric disorder. It only manifests itself in railfan-like behavior.
You might have misunderstood, I certainly don't consider McCollum to be merely a railfan writ large. His actions have gone way over the line of acceptability.
What I am concerned about is the fact that he may have given all railfans a (metaphoric) black eye. And that stems from the fact that railfanning seems to have a somewhat quirky reputation from the general public's viewpoint. It's not that people think railfanning is wrong, just that it's rather, well, peculiar. To John Q. Public, railfanning isn't a mainstream diversion such as, say, bass fishing or restoring old cars. It's more akin to unusual activities such as chainsaw ice sculpting or collecting glass powerline insulators.
It is this perception that makes railfanning more vulnerable to bad publicity such as that which McCollum has so amply provided. Imagine if the Times had run an article about a person who was into car restoring, and who had been busted repeatedly for acquiring parts from the Midnight Auto Supply. I doubt if many people would read the article and say to themselves, "Wow, those car people are a bunch of fruitcakes." But there surely are many many people today who are thinking that railfans are weirdos.
(Sort of an aside here... for those of you who have seen Woody Allen's recent film Sweet and Lowdown, whose main character is a railfan- not to mention the world's most egotistical 2nd-best jazz guitarist-- it's just another portrayal of the railfan-as-weirdo...)
Oh, Woody Allen is normal ;-)
Just a question. Was his "running an "A" Train that long ago that he's 35? Wasn't he 16-18 when he did that?
As to Woody being normal, remember, he likes little girls. :-)
Wrong wacko.
-Hank
Enlighten me. Do we have 2 different people here, and if so, what was the current topic's first offense? Also, what happened to the kid, and what (if anything) since?
Down here in the Queen City of the Patapsco River Dranage Basin we don't get much NYC subway/rail news unless it makes the national new services.
As to Woody being normal, remember, he likes little girls. :-)
Yeah, and Caligula loved his sister.
As a good friend of mine once remarked: "Incest is a game the whole family can play."
Getting back to NYC and subways, anybody wanna explain who is who in the "I do things around NYCT that give railfans a bad image" thread?
I beleive the 16 year old who stole the A train was another rail buff by the name of Keron something or another. Since his stunt which happened around 1993 he has never broken the law concerning transit but was arrested for a knife fight or something several years ago.
Mr Mccollum did operate a train in the early eighties as well as many other unauthorized uses of various transit equipment. I remember about 5 years ago he stole a TA bus from Queens and was spotted in Manhattan by a supervisor who realized a Queens bus should not be in Manhattan at 1100 pm. He was chased by the police and ended up slightly damaging the bus.
Thanks for the update, Freddy. I knew there were 2 different people involved, but got confused as to who was who.
It does seem Mr. Mcollum has a real full-blown problem. Perhaps he needs to be sent to someplace that has no transit of any kind. He seems to be absolutely dangerous, and the Times has no business labeling him as a railfan. He is a criminal, whose crimes seem to always involve transit.
>>> the Times has no business labeling him as a railfan <<<
Dan;
Are you suggesting that because most railfans are not criminals it is impossible for a criminal to be a railfan? I fail to see the logic.
Tom
The logic is that by the Times labeling his as a railfan in the recent article that spawned this thread casts aspersions on the legitimate railfan community.
There are railfans that are also criminals, but their crimes do not usually involve transit. McCollums always do.
But he shouldn't be classified strictly as a criminal. What drives him to his anti-social behavior is a mental disorder. He doesn't see that what he's doing could be harmful to himself or others. McCollum is deranged, not criminally minded.
However, Keron Thomas was consicous of what he was doing which indicates criminal intent. He deliberately took out a subway train so he could brag and boast to his fellow classmates of his act, gaining him "props*" among his peers.
*I believe this is a common hip-hop/urban slang for respect, balls, chutzpah, etc.
Doug aka BMTman
Keron Thomas sticks in my mind .....
--Mark
The fallout will hit every railfan.
You don't think it already has? For the short term, at least, I'm sure the police will be keeping a closer eye on us lawful railfans, too.
--Mark
The thing that is scary is that he was a ERA member & a TA Museum guide. It occurs to me that there is a very thin line between some of us and him (love of subways, love of touching the equipment, love of riding them just for fun). Also, "he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong"
Fortunately WE can see that line in the sand and know not to cross it.
I also think it's quite amusing that he hidesout from the cops at Jay Street !
Mr t__:^)
I know it will never happen (just imagine some TA official sticking his neck out that far), but the simple solution might be for the TA to hire this nut and get some useful work out of him.
Do you think he would be satisfied moving trains around the yards? If he is on welfare, maybe he could be assigned to the TA to fulfill a "workfare" requirement?
I know it will never happen (just imagine some TA official sticking his neck out that far), but the simple solution might be for the TA to hire this nut and get some useful work out of him.
If I read this guy right, it wouldn't work. He does what he does on his own terms. If he held a regular job of, say, T/O, he wouldn't be able to deal with the enforced structure of having to take out this train at that time, work the jobs appropriate to his seniority, and so on.
i just read the article about darius... i wish i were in new york so the reporters would be able to interview me... darius's article really went deeply into his life history... being much older than darius and thus having more years of colorful dysfunctional behavior, i figure that a whole issue or special edition of the new york times could be devoted to my life...
ATTENTION MEDIA REPORTERS
if you cannot reach me by phone, please e-mail me
i guarantee you will win a wurlitzer prize
for writing the definitive heypaul article
Would you be satisfied with your own "Heypaul: The TV series" on HBO?
It would probably give "Survivor" a run for its money....
(yeah right).
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
You could have a closeup of someone working the controls in heypaul's motorman's cab with the R-1/9 sounds piped in during the opening titles.
Hey, Steve -- don't encourage me!
:-)
Funny you should mention this.
Doctors with thick glasses and pointy beards are already positing that Darius has HPS (HeyPaul Syndrome).
Paul, that's good one!
LOL!
I'd like to see him speed up the scrolling message.:-)
"Wurlitzer" prize??!!!
Do you also have a theater pipe organ in your apartment?
I think he has a 1940's jukebox that plays 78RPM records!
karl is partially (partly??, ask barb) right... in addition to a wurlitzer juke box, i recently purchased long island university's famed theatre organ... i am currently negotiating with the owners of the apartments on the floors above me to allow me to install some of the longer organ pipes... once fully installed, i plan to give saturday night concerts from my apartment... that is, as soon as i learn how to play the organ...
Can't wait to hear your rendition of Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor.:-)
as soon as i learn how to play the organ...
Eric should be able to help you with that. Is there water access to the basement of your apartment house? He can also help arrange your masked balls.
Barb says either is correct -- they're synonyms!
If you can't make arrangements with the other owners, cancel the deal with LIU for the theatre organ and go to your local music store.
Most music stores have started their holiday promotion on home organs.
You can pick your organ now, make a small down payment, and they will hold your organ till Christmas!
Don't forget to place tulips on your organ whenever you play!
;-)
As a theater organist, I have played LIU's (ex Brooklyn Paramount) Wurlitzer (Op. 1984, Install. 1929) Publix #4 several times during the late seventies for LIU home games. Let me know when the installation is finished and I'll be happy to give the dedication concert! I would think that "Down in the Subway" would be an appropriate console riser!
Not to mention "Take the A Train".:-)
Of course! Even better what with heypual's R1-9 cab!
If you do have that juke box hope you have a copy of Earth Angel by the Penguins for it.That was my first R&B-R&R record , from 1954.The record that brought R&B into white folks' homes! On the Dootone Label, based at 9514 S. Central Ave. LA. A lot different world then.
Second thought, if you're for real or not, did that LIU organ happen to be from the beloved Brooklyn Paramount? I have a lot of happy memories of going to rock and roll in person shows there back in the -50's, with Alan Freed the MC. Travel by High V and Low V of course.
Not only is the organ FROM the Brooklyn Paramount, but the building that the organ is housed in WAS the Brooklyn Paramount, now used as an athletic center of LIU. This is one of the very rare ORIGINAL installations of a Wurlitzer theater pipe organ still extant and playable, and a very large one at that. The LIU (Paramount) organ is a "Publix #4" type with four manuals (keyboards) and 26 ranks (sets) of pipes (roughly 1500 pipes). Only the twin console beheamoth in Radio City Music Hall (the largest Wurlitzer ever built) is bigger in the NYC area.
Every show at Radio City Music Hall would start off with a performance on that organ, billed as the Music Hall Grand Organ. Then you'd have the stage show, then the Rockettes, then the feature movie.
I'm sure it was threads like this that made a certain TA friend of ours just throw up his hands and say ... Oh heck if all these folks think the water is safe to swim in, maybe I'll give it a try.
BTW, I'm very glad I'm out of ear shot of a certain apartment in Sheepshead Bay, as I have all I can stand of a neighbor who does singing lessons across the street from me.
Mr t__:^)
How soon they forget heypauls exploits in the subterrian clash with the Champion of Doom theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee KINGFISH.
soon to be released on trading cards and supplements for weak end Flyers. Do you remember PETER WHEAT ?
avid
..the result of man being put through
numerous (and repetitious) weeks of
bland, dull, colorless WCW telecasts.
A friend and I once got into Pitkin yard during about 1968-69 and moved a train a few feet one way, and then back to where it was. He had a set of 'handles' (don't remember how he got them) and all the know-how. All I remember about stopping was IT WASN'T EASY!, we stopped real hard. Of course we were picked up by TA police and brought to the tower where my pal knew everyone, and we got away with it!
What cars were in the consist?
[What cars were in the consist?]
I think they were R9s or R10s (it was a long time ago, and I'm not the best at remembering the car designations).
The R-10s would have been easy to identify because their paint scheme was radically different, whether it was the original two-tone gray with orange bands or my personal favorite, the teal and white with the racing stripe.
Messrs. Thomas and McCallum both got a hold of equipment only a T/O would have, such as a brake handle, and managed to bluff their way into employees-only territory before carrying out their unlawful motorman activities.
The people they snuck by claimed they 'seemed' like they belonged, were wearing what 'looked like' Transit uniforms, etc. To get into 370 Jay Street, you need to present TA employee I.D. It seems like terminals and yards- at least the ones they invaded- are run on the honor system.
Reminds me of in high school when a friend drove his car past the gates of the Flushing (now Stengel) bus garages by casually waving at the guard, who just waved back with no further intervention. That was how we got a Gilby's Gin ad from the side of a bus for a class project.
Hello everybody.
I have just returned from my summer camp yesterday, and will begin posting on subtalk regularly again. At camp, I had no access to the internet, hence I know very little about the transit news since the end of June. Please forgive me for any stupid questions or remarks that may result from this.
At camp, the only exposure I had to transit was on July 19 (also my 16th birthday), when I visited the Seashore Trolley Museum with other members of my camp. I looked for other subtalkers, but found none. It was a very interesting experience. Also, I read parts of books on railroad technology and history, and a book on PATCO. Also, one of the camp counselors is a transit fan from Boston, and I had a good number of conversations with him.
[At camp, the only exposure I had to transit was on July 19 (also my 16th birthday), when I visited the Seashore Trolley Museum with other members of my camp. I looked for other subtalkers, but ...]
You just missed us on Sat. the 15th. Look at the "Field Trip" section for a write up & some photos by SubTalker Todd Glickman. Also check back in a few days as 39 more have been sent to Dave for inclusion.
In particular look for a group shot in front of their GM Fishbowl as you may recognize some of the folks that were there the 19th.
Mr t__:^)
According to the Star Ledger New Jersey
Transit is operating under a huge deficit. Fares
most likely will be raised. Of course, this in turn
might cause a decrease in ridership which brings us
back to one of the major problems of transit lines:
the cost. The general car riding public does not
want to burn tax money on something they don't use.
And, until there is a sufficient network of rapid
transit lines (which probably won't happen in our
lifetime) they won't use them. What we need here and
won't get is a regional one-fare ride with rapid
transit lines such as exists in NYC. There is also a
mention of funding being set for the HBLR extension,
the Mercer County line, and the Elizabeth-Newark
line.
Fiscal Trouble on the Tracks
(Which brings us back to one of the major problems of transit lines:
the cost.)
The cost issue has two components. The first is the disguised cost of the car, which gets it ROW paid for by tax dollars. All discussion of rail costs should assume that the cost of a ROW is a public responsibility, just as roads are.
The second is productivity. No, the TWU doesn't like OPTO. But the bottom line is that while transit workers' salaries have increased as fast, or faster than what the rest of use earn, transit workers' productivity has increased much more slowly. Hence, transit becomes (relatively) more expensive.
Since 1995, U.S. productivity has risen at an average of three percent per year. That means by next year, it will require 17 percent fewer man-hours to produce that same amount of goods and services as in 1995. Has the number of transit workers and managers gone down by 17 percent? Has service increased by 17 percent? No. Therefore, productivity gains have been lower than average, although higher than in the prior 50 years.
Obviously, these kinds of gains are only possible if you change the way work is done, and subsititute machines for people in some cases -- without reducing (the quality of the) service. Everyone else is adjusting and adopting so transit workers can get more for less. Transit workers need to do the same.
But the bottom line is that while transit workers' salaries have
increased as fast, or faster than what the rest of use earn, transit workers' productivity has increased much more slowly. Hence, transit becomes (relatively) more expensive.
Since 1995, U.S. productivity has risen at an average of three percent per year. That means by next year, it will require 17 percent fewer man-hours to produce that same amount of goods and services as in 1995. Has the number of transit workers and managers gone down by 17 percent? Has service increased by 17 percent? No. Therefore, productivity gains have been lower than average, although higher than in the prior 50 years.
All good points, but keep in mind that productivity gains in service industries (broadly defined) generally have lagged well behind those in good-producing industries. Many service industries require a degree of personal involvement that cannot easily be replaced or discontinued. One favorite example involves public schools. Fifty or even one hundred years ago, a teacher could handle a class of no more than 25 or so students. Today, the limit's still about 25. That's a long way from, say, an auto assembly plant, where one machine can do the work of ten men.
Transit is probably somewhere between a public school and an auto plant. Yes, there are productivity gains to be had, and they certainly should be pursued with all vigor, but it's unrealistic to expect miracles. As long as transit ridership remains so heavily bunched at rush hours, and as long as transit systems are required to provide "social service" runs for political reasons, they're highly unlikely to become profitable no matter how much productivity is increased.
Even though we haven't had a fare increase in 10 years don't we still pay more per mile than Metro-North and LIRR riders? Do these railroads have pay parking at their stations similar to NJT?
>***Even though we haven't had a fare increase in 10 years don't we still pay more per mile than Metro-North and LIRR riders? Do these railroads have pay parking at their stations similar to NJT?***<
To the extent that MetroNorth goes all the way to New Haven and the LIRR to Montauk, perhaps. That's more a function of the size of Westchester, Connecticut, and Long Island and the relative compactness of NJ. For the average rider, though, I think NJT is still cheaper in out-of-pocket terms (rather than per-mile terms), if only because of its peak-service pricing policy. NJT only charges peak fares inbound to NY/Newark/Hoboken in the morning. There is no peak charge in the evening. MetroNorth and the LIRR, if I'm not mistaken, charge peak fares inbound in the morning *and* outbound in the evening.
Perhaps NJT should raise fares by creating an outbound peak charge as well? I wonder how effective peak pricing is at spreading out the rush hour crush on MNCRR and LIRR?
I'll agree that the ROW should be a public responsibility as are the roads, but the general public is comprised of many people who have not been on any public transit in years. They will not agree.
I'll agree that the ROW should be a public responsibility as are the roads, but the general public is comprised of many people who have not been on any public transit in years. They will not agree.
Of course, good mass transit benefits drivers as well, by easing traffic congestion, but unfortunately it's very difficult to convince people that they're deriving indirect benefits.
Well I think that the NJT bus routes are just too good of a buy.
The bus from New York to Garden State Plaza is ONLY $2.55 each way Round Trip. Considering it's a nice coach style bus, it should cost more. I don't want fares to go up on NJT, but then again I'm suprised it hasn't happened already.
Maybe NJT should go MTA style, charging $3.00 for a ride on an express bus (from NYC) and $1.50 on a local. And introducing unlimited cars.
NJT needs something like the MTA's Metrocard, that'll really boost ridership.
Hi. I'm trying to find some downloadable sound and video clips of anything with the NYC Subways. If you know any links or some sort, please respond to me at KC915hakrez@aol.com. Thanx
My web site has some sound clips. Come on over.
Click here. Take the express train to Transfer Point, then click on Transit Sounds 2000. I have no vid clips though.
I'll be getting some video clips up on a web site as soon as I get my DSL line installed. (Don't hold your breath though, Verizon strike has delayed all installs.)
Any requests? I've got all the video equipment and software to do it easily.
Pre-GOH R40/42 brakes (Darth Vader)
Pre GOH R46 brakes (whistle)
R16's idling
Any prewar equipment (I never got to ride any).
If you can oblige, I'd appreciate it a lot. Thanks.
I highly recommend heypaul's R-1/9 audio tape. You get it all: throbbing compressors, bull and pinion gears, braking sounds (tch-ssss); doors opening and closing, the works.
I have his tape, and I completely agree. It's great. Unfortunately, I never rode an R9 and the sounds they make are foriegn to me. The old R42 and R16's I did ride, and have lots of memories attached to those sounds.
Thanks, Dave. I didn't blame you. I just thought the post was inapropriate. Almost everyone on here is civilized, and it would be good to keep it that way. I love this board!
A while back (probably over a year ago) someone posted a R-46 door chime .WAV file here. If anyone still has it... I'd appreciate it if you'd post it or e-mail it to me.
Many Thanks
Wayne
and if ANYONE has a pre GOH R40/42 brake release WAV file, please post it here. I haven't heard that sound since 1988!
ChrisR16:
Wayne Whitehorne sent me the WAV file of the door chimes. Maybe he or someone else (probably David Pirmann) can get you the pre GOH R40/42 brake release.
BMTJeff
I already sent Wayne Johnson the file he was looking for, and received a "thank you" promptly.
do you think i can get a copy of that wav file pleeeze?
I sent the same and got nothing.
For sending me your R42 brake WAV files. Sure brought back a LOT of memories. I can just imagine me sitting on one at Queens Blvd. on the J line as it charges up to go to Manhattan ...
Can I get them too?
Please send them over this way, as I was too young at the time to notice the sounds subway cars made.
On the PATH system, the P series cars use dynamic braking too. Why do the braking on those cars feel so smooth. There is no hum or jerking common of NYTCA equipment. Why is that?
I've posted video captures from a series of seven videos on the Chicago "L"/Subway I previously produced. Two more are currently in production and I am open to suggestions for future topics. The caps are posted at < http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars/CHICAGOSLSUBWAY
....can be found on Greene Street in Soho, outside the Soho Gallery near Prince Street, made of metallic strips embedded in the sidewalk. Does anyone know the background story of this unusual map? (They keep it updated, since the Queensboro extension is included.) Need it for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know any background about the map but I currently work in that building.
The SoHo Building hosts "The Sculptor's Guild" and probably
it's the work of one their members.
Looking at the map, I noticed:
1. No 57/6 station (probably just a mistake)
2. JFK Express & Nassau R (RR) still there
3. No 63rd St
4. No Christie St. K (KK)
5. Both sides of Man. Bdge. operating
So I assume the map was made somewhere btwn 76-86?
Probably late 70s, because of its straight lines VS curved lines.
Was never updated.
Today I saw a French family walking by, as I was taking a
cigarette break, going:
"Maman, c'est quoi ces lignes? (Mom, what are those lines?)"
"C'est un plan du metro (It's a subway map)"
"Mais il n'est pas comme ca, le metro ( But the subway doesn't look like this)"
"C'etait comme ca, avant (It used to be that way)"
I guess the mother lived in NYC for quite a long time
It had to be after 1980. My ex-wife and I had a loft on Greene from 78-80.
>It had to be after 1980. My ex-wife and I had a loft on Greene from 78-80.
I checked the signature. It's from 1986.
Subway Map Floating on a N.Y. Sidewalk
F. Schein
1986
Thanks for the info, I'll use it on any web page I do about it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Some of you may remember that last week I inquired about midday parking availability for a "park and ride" into Manhattan. Well, today was the day. I drove from Roslyn to the DoT garage at Queensboro Plaza, via the Northern State, Grand Central, BQE, and Queens Blvd. Thanks to it being a vacation week for many, and a lack of accidents, it took just TWENTY FIVE MINUTES to get from Roslyn, LI to the corner of Queens Blvd. and Van Dam Street. Then it took another 25 minutes to go the three blocks over Sunnyside Yard to the DoT garage! There was plenty of parking on the 4th level and the roof (with a great view of the 7 & N lines). Under 10 hours is $5.10!!
Of course, it took another 25 minutes to go from Queens Plaza to 5th/53rd; there were TWO F's in the station (each packed, unable to accept additional passengers, on the local and express tracks). So I waited for the next train (another F!) and squeeeeezed on for the rhino trip through the tube.
Anyway, that DoT garage is a good bet for anyone needed to park near, but not in Manhattan.
The traffic in Roslyn is HORRIBLE!! And all the construction, around the LIE on Roslyn road is a nightmere (and I hate those damn LIE traffic lights, they are so long!).
I try to avoid the area if possible, and take only the N20,21, and N23 routes through the area. roslyn road is the worst, and always delays the N27 by more than 10 minutes off schedule. Two lane roads should be avoided!!!
You know John if you always see the darker side of things we'll not bother reading your posts as who want to hear bad news ALL the time. Also Todd's thread was about QBP & his subway ride. The Roslyn comment was just a BTW.
Mr t__:^)
On the plus side of Roslyn, it's a beautiful town (OK, I'm prejudice -- I grew up there and still have lots of friends there), and there is always FREE parking at the LIRR station in Roslyn, and usually in Albertson too. Sure, the LIE construction has the area in a big mess. But there's hardly a community anywhere 25 miles from Times Square that doesn't have its share of congestion or a downside. On balance, I'd happily move back there given the opportunity (and the money!).
Oh, one other follow-up to my QBP garage report -- overnight parking is available for $9.25. While I can't vouch for the safety of your vehicle there, it sure beats $30+ in Manhattan garages. And I think I'd rather take the chance in a self-park garage than letting a valet park my vehicle!
in subtalk chat room NOW!
You do realize that none of it works right now?
actually it does. I hit "chat now" and then what server to use and then had a long chat with my cousin - just us two. He's from Budapest so I figured the subtalkers could interrogate him with questions about the metro there and the new M4 that is currently being planned, but oh well their loss
The point is I was in a transitional period and didn't expect anyone to try to connect. Not only that, but you weren't even in the official room. Didn't you notice that you became an op (at least I assume that would be the case). That has been fixed now, the move to DALnet has been postponed indefinitely.
1. Car 2041 on the 3 line have the line strip maps in them. The 3 is finally getting strip maps.
2. Car 1456 on the 4 have the black floors. I do not know if 1457-60 have them as well. Also 1456 was squeaking noise as it moves along the tracks. Anybody from Jerome Yard??? Lead car on the 4.
3. Finally saw the R142. TWICE!!!! Both times at Atlantic. Both times while Im on the 4. One day last on my way home, it was heading uptown. This morning on the way to work, it was heading to Flatbush. I was sharing the railfan window with a young boy who notice it as son as it pulled into the station. When he saw it, his words were, "Ooh look!! The new #2 train." Of course everybody turned and looked at the first two cars of the R142 before a R62 4 train blocked its view........
4. On a 3 line car, I saw a new subway map that shows the 2 express in the Bronx and also both the circle and diamond 5 terminating at Flatbush.
5. The roadbed on the southbound express between Atlantic and Franklin have been totally redone.
Questions:
1. Why there GT's on the southbound express track between Nevins and Atlantic???
2. Will there be 2 express service in the Bronx?
3Train#2041Mike
Hey Mike, what's up?
Some thoughts with regards to your post:
>2.Car 1456 on the 4 have the black floors. I do not know if 1457-60 have them as well. Also 1456 was squeaking noise as it moves along the tracks. Anybody from Jerome Yard??? Lead car on the 4.
If one car has it, chances are all of them have it. After all, the 5 cars are linked, this makes them one unit. If there was a problem with the cars in question with regards to the squeaking noises, I'm sure someone in the barn will investigate. I was on 1365 today, and it too, had a black floor.
>3. Finally saw the R142. TWICE!!!! Both times at Atlantic
Believe it or not, they seem to be running pretty strong. They've been running fairly constant since last Wednsday. That would make this Day #9 for them? Be on the watchout for more 142s at Linden Yard.
>Questions:
>1. Why there GT's on the southbound express track between Nevins and Atlantic???
To slow everything down crossing over the switches.
>2. Will there be 2 express service in the Bronx?
That's still debatable, as there was a meeting about this with members of the public some weeks ago. If you see a map, perhaps it will happen anyway....
Regards,
Stef
Thanks Stef!!!! Talk to you soon.......
3TM
There is now a GT on the NL bound 3 between Rockaway and Junius. Why????? The train starts to elevates at that point so it can go over the L. Why????
3TM
The el is on a grade upward. Perhaps someone is afraid that the T/O's won't see a train ahead of them, and an accident would occur as a result....
-Stef
So that's why they put Grade Timers on (uphill) grades!
The floors on the 7 line redbirds are ugly, and a new black floor would be quite spiffy on them. But since the redbirds are about to disappear forever, I doubt they're getting new floors now!
It will be nice to start seeing R62s and/or R62A's on the 7 line.
:)Andrew
[It will be nice to start seeing R62s and/or R62A's on the 7 line.]
It would also be nice to hear the conductors announce both names for the stations (ex. "This is 40th Street-Lowery Street," etc.), and have them appear on both the strip and full subway maps again.
The old names for the stations are obsolete and it's about time they got rid of them for stations other than on the Flushing line.
Why would you exempt the 7 line? For its history?
Actually, I do want to ask, what are those names (Lowry, Lincoln Ave, Bliss, etc.) Are they the onld names for the numbered streets?
Andrew
No, I mean they got rid of them on the Flushing line because the signs were changed, they should get rid of them elsewhere too.
And yes, those are the old names.
Much like Hudson, Boyd, Oxford and Greenwood that lasted so long on the present day A to Lefferts.
I used to shop On Jamaica Ave. near Forest Parkway and a street sign on a turn of the century building said South Ferry St. Nowhere near any water! So at one time you might have asked how to get to South Fery and wound up in Woodhaven????
When they got rid of the old station names off the maps, I was totally confused when the C/R of my Manhattan-bound A said "This train will be bypassing Oxford and Greenwood." When we passed those 2 numbered stops (I'm too lazy to walk over to my wall map) between Lefferts and Rockaway Blvd, it fell into place.
As of 6am today, the station signs stilled showed both names.
Hmmm... I remember those exact words coming out of my mouth when I was on a 4 Train. I was in a 5 car set. All of the cars had black floors. I was with 2 girls. But, I remember being a Redbird on the 4 Line covering the view of the R142. The R142 was heading north. I was on a 4 Train heading into Atlantic Avenue.
That's the...
running on...
's
questions.
when i see KMA, i imagine an asian person.. a friend of mine noticed the initials and immediately suggested a common three word expression often used to tell someone off... so, KMA, do you feel like saying to me "KMA" for asking this question?
Paul, the name is Ken; and I've been using my initials a lot longer than I have been aware of the three-word phrase. As for my ancestry, I'm from Brooklyn.
(As for my ancestry, I'm from Brooklyn.)
If you got the 2000 Census long form, I hope that's what you put down in response to the ancestry question.
ken... thanks for your answer... although i frequently goof around here, i was really curious about what kma stood for, as my friend's suggestion had never occurred to me... i also share your noble ancestry...
KMA (960 AM) is a radio station in Shenandoah, Iowa, that broadcasts 100% for farmers and their families. It can be heard in both Des Moines and Omaha/Council Bluffs during the day.
http://kmakkbz.com/kma/
thanks for that link carl... i was checking that site out and e-mailed the station manager to see if they would be interested in carrying my daily syndicated radio program, "heypaul's daily inspirational words for the confused", which is currently heard in 238 markets nationwide...
I know some participants in this message board like to follow the R142 train's schedule, on the #2 line.
FYI: It pulled into the downtown side of the 72nd Street station at 21:55 (9:55 PM) this evening.
Funny how everyone on it seemed too tired to notice. :)
is it running if so i am going to ride it today
let me kno
Caught it for the first time today, on the Noon run from Flatbush at Fulton St., so it is running on the schedules posted on this site.
Web site address, from today's New York Post:
http://www.nypost.com/news/10651.htm
Amtrak will operate French high-speed, non-electric trains from '70's (with overhauled engines) between NYC, Albany, and Buffalo.
They were very fast and very comfortable in their pre-overhaul configuration; let's hope they're even nicer now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Monday, 14 August 2000, 04:50 - my wife and I board NJT's early morning train at Little Silver, the first leg of a journey that will take us to Toronto, Montréal, and Québec City before returning home. We drag far too much luggage aboard and settle down for the ride to NY Penn Station.
06:05 - up the escalator to the main concourse and back down another one to the LIRR concourse, where we grab a quick breakfast and then return to the Amtrak waiting area, where our documents are pre-checked prior to boarding the Maple Leaf for Toronto. Boarding is announced at 06:50, and we join the mob at the gate. Eventually we board and are fortunate to grab the last two seats together on a 100% full train. The train pulls out at 07:15, right on time. The two 700-series locos are exchanged for a single 200-series F40PH at Albany and we lumber westbound along the Mohawk River, still on schedule. There are a number of old locomotives and other equipment, including F-units in both NYC and Alaska RR paint and a pair of steam locomotives (one cosmetically restored, one a real mess), at Utica. When we arrive at Niagara Falls, New York, we are running about 20 minutes behind schedule, mainly due to waiting for the east/southbound Maple Leaf, which was over an hour behind schedule at that point. It was powered by a VIA Rail F40PH, indicating a failure of the usual Amtrak power. After leaving the Niagara Falls, NY station, however, things went downhill. US Customs pulled a surprise exit inspection of the train (they do this on occasion), bringing the drug dogs through the train and delaying us for an additional hour and a half. The agents also carry mini-Geiger counters on their belts which are extremely sensitive; they picked up the radioactivity from the thalium used in the cardiac stress test I had had two weeks prior. Made for some interesting questioning until we made the connection. Once they got done we crossed the bridge below the Falls (quite a view, even from a distance) and went through almost the entire process again with Canadian Customs. We saw many GO Transit trains awaiting the morning rush as we came through the suburbs prior to our arrival in Toronto at 20:50, one hour and 35 minutes behind schedule. There are no escalators from the platform we arrived at to the arrival concourse (or elevators that we could find) so we had to drag our luggage all the way down to the main exit area, where a friend was waiting to take us to dinner and our hotel.
To be continued...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ye gods! That thorough a search on the Canadian border?!? A First World country that we haven't been at war with since 1814?!? One more time: YE GODS!
I have never been to Canada, but it's my understanding from friends and relatives that have that the border crossing by automobile is fairly informal and rarely lengthy. On the other hand, I've heard on the Net and in books on Amtrak travel that Customs (US and Canadian) are strict on the trains, especially compared with the typical auto crossing (though not as bad as the search you experienced). Why give auto passengers a relatively easy cross and train passengers a hard one? Are rail passengers somehow more suspect?
Amtrak is planning to operate a daily train between San Antonio TX and Monterrey, Mexico, via. Laredo and Nuevo Laredo. (When? Who knows?) The customs search on that train will be bloody insane if that's what you faced on the Canadian border. Not to mention the Immigration check!
No wonder that another planned Amtrak train, through-routing the Twilight Limited and an Empire Service train by way of southern Ontario to provide another Chicago-NY train, will be a "sealed" train with no stops in Canada!
The border should be eliminated. People should be allowed to walk (or ride, or drive or boat or skate or whatever) across the border. Even non-citizens of either country, because if their eligible to enter one country, they should be eligible to enter the other.
Then there's the currency, which should be unified.
Most Amtrak trains are Powered by F40PH's from VIA to/from Toronto. They switch 'em at Niagara Falls NY(to NYC), ONT (to Toronto). I live in Utica and from what the ticket counter told me about the steam trains, they are restoring them and tring to get them to run again for a run on the Adirondack Scenic Railway (which starts its run in Utica at Union Station and goes up to Old Forge).
B61 Leonard
Most Amtrak trains are Powered by F40PH's from VIA to/from Toronto. They switch 'em at Niagara Falls NY(to NYC), ONT (to Toronto).
That may have once been the case, but according to our conductor (who has been on that route for a long time) it has not been done that way in his memory. VIA has a power shortage worse than Amtrak's so Amtrak power is normally used all the way. There is an engine change at Albany/Rensselaer, where there is an engine terminal; a pair of 700-series engines replace the F40PH for the run to NYC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was told by a family member that my name and list # for conductor is in the Chief. I will pick one up this morning to find out for sure..........
3Train#2080Mike
Yep, like Ragu its in there!!!!!!
3TM
Returned from NJ to NY last Sunday via NJT NEC Line. When I got off the train, I saw an unusual Amtrak consist. The livery was vintage 1970s-80s. The locomotive had a sleek, slant-front look and written on its side in large letters was the word "Turbopower." The coaches had large picture windows, but were all dark. I have an idea what this was, but I'm not sure, so I won't risk a guess. Anybody else see this?
Rohr TurboTrain
Which are in the process of being returned to service on the Amtrak NY State routes, after extensive refurbishing....
These aren't the same as "Talgos" from the west coast?
These turbotrains are in no way related to Talgo. They do not tilt.
They are quiet distinctive in that I believe their engines are kerosene fueled. And - they are capable of high speeds - or speeds up to 125MPH.
In the past, I noticed very poor acceleration on these trains. But good speed was always there if one had the patience to wait for it.
I believe that the rebuilt Turbos now entering service will have significantly improved acceleration. And this should help speed schedules as well.
All jet fuel is kerosene based. JP4 military grade and JP5 civilian grade. My guess the turbotrain uses JP5 kerosene.
BTW. The train is disscussion here is based on a French design. The return of the Talgo in the USA is a refinement by the country of Spain. The orginial US Talgo was an ACF model. One orginial Talgo is in the rail museum in the Capital of Spain.
I was under the impression that these beasts were being repowered with more conventional turbo-diesel power, due to the fires the fleet had experienced.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not to mention being a more standardized member of the fleet....I had heard that they were quite the beasts are far as waiting for parts,actual repair time, etc...Not to also mention having to get an entire different fuel for.... Still, a quite comfortable riding group of trainsets.....
Anyone heard yet if Amtrak is EVER going to start up that LA - Las Vegas Talgo service?? They've been promising that almost as long as Acela...Of all the Dumb Amtrak Moves, NONE beats the cutting of service to one of the WORLDS biggest tourist destinations....
how about chaning the logo once every 28 days?
IIRC, the LA-Vegas run was put on further delay because the Talgo wheels don't meet new Federal specs.
What's a Talgo wheel?
Peace,
ANDEE
Apparently the Talgo trainsets Amtrak is purchasing use a different wheel size and profile than more conventional equipment, and changing FRA regs has made it non-spec.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
THX
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard the Feds may force the withdrawal of the Talgo's because they do not meet the latest buff strength crashworthyness standards.
Hadn't heard that one, but it wouldn't surprise me... if they do then VIA Rail Canada will probably snap them up, assuming that their rail standards in that regard aren't quite as strict as the US. They have a real shortage of equipment up there, although what they have is real nice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tuesday, 15 August and Wednesday, 16 August. We spent two full days in Toronto, riding the entire subway system and also the Harbourfront streetcar line (509) out and back (as well as taking in several of the local sights - if you're ever in Toronto, visit the Casa Loma museum - the view is breathtaking from their towers). The subways were CLEAN and free of graffiti, with an excellent railfan window. We rode on the both the new and older stainless-steel cars (as differentiated by the cloth vs. vinyl seats and by the electronic cab vs. the more conventional controller equipment - I'm no expert on these things). Most motormen were quite friendly, as was the token booth attendant from whom we purchased tokens on Tuesday, although one motorman had a bad attitude about my standing at the front window on his train (we switched to the next one). On only one occasion did we observe anyone even putting their feet up on the seat, and the motorman opened up his cab and told the girl to get her feet down or get off. She complied. The ride on the Harbourfront line was very interesting. We got off on the return trip to have dinner; when we reboarded the car was nearly full, and at the next stop it was packed beyond belief. Then at the stop entering the short underground run to Union Station the operator allowed at least another 50-60 people on.
Among the sights we saw in Toronto were many moose. One, in Union Station, was the GO Transit moose; if my photo comes out I'll post it.
To be continued...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wednesday evening, 16 August - we board the Enterprise for the journey to Montréal: bedroom B in the Laurentian Park dome-observation car. VIA Rail has fouled up big time, as we were supposed to have the luxury suite (and had paid a bloody amount for it), but we can't reach the travel agency at 22:30 to get things straightened out. The train leaves on time at 23:30; we sit in the dome for a few minutes before retiring for the night, me to the upper bunk (those of you who know me, don't laugh too loudly at that notion, please!) and my wife to the lower. At 06:30 we get up, have breakfast in the dome, and watch the sun rise as we approach Montréal for an on-time arrival at 08:00. Coming in we pass the GE-Alsthom plant, where a large number of locomotives and old GO Transit stainless-steel single-level cars are sitting. Two of the units are ex-SCL units, minus their prime movers, that look like they may be being readied for conversion to slugs (of which we've seen a lot on CN). We thread our way through the passages to the subway and head for our hotel.
Montréal's subway runs on rubber tires and has no railfan windows - not even a peephole into the cab. It is relatively quiet and service is quite frequent. The cars are a medium-light blue. We rode portions of the green and orange lines to get to our hotel. The cars have LED displays inside that report news etc. in French. Like Toronto, the cars and stations were clean (although not quite trash-free). All in all, a rather boring ride.
After checking into our hotel we rode the bus down to the old city for a tour. That night we dined at Laloux, on Avenue des Pins - well recommended.
To be continued...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Friday, 18 August - we board VIA Rail's 12:30 train for Québec City. Like Amtrak on Monday, it was full, except this time we weren't even able to get seats together. The three hour ride was most pleasant, however, across several very interesting bridges and through some very scenic countryside en route to Québec City. Tilt-train technology works great! The station in QC is down by the St. Lawrence River, a little over 1 km. from our hotel. We didn't realize how steep the climb would be, so off we go, dragging way too much luggage uphill all the way. Fortunately, our dinner that evening was at Aux Anciens Canadiens, and I do not exaggerate in saying that we will return to QC simply to eat at that restaurant again. The food, presentation, service, and atmosphere were all superb. I'm not normally one for high-falutin' grub, but this place was just wonderful. (Yes, it was expensive, but sometimes you do get what you pay for.) Saturday we toured the city and had more wonderful food in another nearby restaurant.
To be continued...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sunday, 20 August - we boarded the 08:20 train to Montréal shortly before 08:30. An F40PH was substituting at the head of the train as we left QC 20 minutes late. At least this time it wasn't quite packed! We saw five moose and many deer during the first 50 km. of our trip, none of whom had been in evidence two days earlier. Despite the substitute engine we made good time, arriving less than 10 minutes late at Montréal. After checking into our hotel, we rode the subway back to the yellow line connection and rode that line to the far end, two stops away, and then returned to the middle stop - Ilé St. Heléne, formerly the site of Expo 67. The old fairgrounds have largely been let go back to nature. Some of the old pavillions remain; the French pavillion has been converted into a casino and the US pavillion is now the Biosphere. Many other lesser structures are simply crumbling away. We walked around a portion of the island, including the old British fort, before returning to our hotel
Monday, 21 August - exhaustion is setting in. We are picked up at our hotel by Marty around 12:45 and he gives us the nickel tour of the city for the next three hours. Although he did suggest riding another couple of portions of the subway (and we had bought three-day passes in anticipation of this) we were simply too tired to do this, so we went back to our hotel for a couple of hours before joining Marty and his wife for dinner at a nearby restaurant. Thanks, folks, for making our stay in Montréal that much more pleasant! After a good bottle of wine and much delightful conversation we head back to our hotel and collapse.
To be continued...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tuesday, 22 August - boarding for Amtrak's Adirondack isn't scheduled to start until 09:50, but already people are queueing up at 09:00, so we join the line. Just before boarding begins a VIA Rail attendant sees our huge suitcase and points us to the priority boarding area, so we were able to take the escalator and get on board before the majority of the folks (thanks, whoever you are). The cars are refurbished Heritage fleet cars - nicely done, but the seats are quite narrow. For someone of my girth Amfleet is more comfortable. It was pulled by a 700-series Genesis engine. We ran quite slowly to the border over what seemed to be rather low-grade track. Canadian Customs didn't board us at all and US Customs made a thorough but quick inspection - no dogs, no Geiger counters. They did remove at least one person from the train, though; it appeared, from what I could hear of the conversation, that he was asking for asylum in the US. (Not sure where he was from, but he did have a passport from somewhere.) The view of Lake Champlain is wonderful. By the time we reached Albany we were 20 minutes behind, but since they didn't have to change engines we were only 5 minutes behind when we left. The snack car was poorly stocked and tended by a surly character who must have hated people, and a bratty five-year-old tyrant spent the entire trip complaining and ordering his mother around (two rows behind us) but other than that it was a pleasant trip. Arrival in New York was at 20:00, ten minutes behind (south of Yonkers they single-tracked us so we had to wait for a northbound MN train) but by a fast scramble we were still able to make the 20:05 back to Little Silver (wrong-railing from just north of Red Bank as well) and got home shortly after 21:30.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can understand how easy it is to control the speed in Division A. All the cars are the same length, but what about Division B?
Lets say its WD10 (10 Mile per hour is approx 15 feet per second). Any 60 foot car would need 4 seconds, but an R44/46 would take almost 5 seconds.
Using different numbers if the R44/46 were also to do it in 4 seconds it would have to be going approx >> MPH (75 feet / 4 seconds = 18.75 feet/second which is approx 12 MPH)
Have a nice day and nicer weekend !!!!
The thing is it's a wheel detector, not a car detector. My hypothesis as to how it can do what it does is if the distance between the individual wheels on each truck is the same on all trucks.
I suspect that given laser technologies, they can time the passing of a single wheel. At a given speed, the wheel should oclude the detection for 0.x microseconds. And judging from what others have said, I suspect that all timers will be replaced with this technology, because it is much simpler to install, and maintain.
Elias
How exactly does the Wheel Detector aspect work? There is absolutely nothing about them in the signals section of the website.
- Lyle
The wheel detector actually times the passing of the wheel from the first detector to the second detector, which is a few feet down.
How exactly does the Wheel Detector aspect work? There is absolutely nothing about them in the signals section of the website.
- Lyle
From Newsday:
First Annual
Riverhead Railroad Festival
Railroad museum of Long Island
August 26th & August 27th
10AM - 3PM
For info call 631-727-7920 or www.bitnik.com/RMLI
The RMLI is on Griffing Ave. across from the Riverhead train station.
Thanks for the info. I'll try to be there.
For those that don't know this is the site of the steam engine 25 group. #25 is one of two LIRR steamers that were saved. They also have two other engines there & several LIRR cars .... see my TParty Field Trip report for additional detail.
If you like LIRR stuff it's worth the trip. Go/return on the northern route for a "ride in the country". Also a LIRR DE/dbl decker will take you there.
Mr t__:^)
When is this? Can u guys give me more information, because I would like to go if I don't gotta work.
Have you all heard about 5 Lines? It's a movie shot almost entirely in the Washington Metro system -- opens in Washington next Thursday. It was also at the NY Independent festival.
Washington Post article about 5 Lines
Official Movie Web Site, though it appears the server is down.
5 Lines will also be screened at the Angelika Film Center, NYC between September 15 and September 22, for those of you in the greater NYC area.
On the LIRR Port Washington line, in Northeastern Queens, there are two stations, Murray Hill and Broadway, with names which have nothing to do with the areas they serve.
I usually hear "Murray Hill" as refering to a neighborhood in midtown Manhattan. That neighborhood is really just part of Flushing. And the LIRR "Broadway" station is several miles away from the nearest "Broadway" (even the Queens Broadway is nowhere near there.)
So why are these stations called by those names? Were they once relavant? Why haven't they since changes the names of those stations? Murray Hill should really be "150th St" or so, and maybe "Broadway should be renamed "Northern Blvd" or "165th St".
Come to think of it, they might eventually abandon those stations altogether, since I doubt they get much ridership.
Andrew
Murray Hill refers to a neighborhood, whether it's used at all or not.
Broadway is the old name for Northern Boulevard.
A lot of station names refer to the past.
Country Life Press, on the Hempstead Branch, is located in the village of Garden City and is less than a half mile east of said station. The name refers to a publishing plant whose employees it servced that used to be in the area.
When Grumann was still in business, it had a station named for itself on the Ronkonkoma line. Republic used to have one as well. Back in the sixties there had been talk of making Republic the region's fifth commercial jetport, which would have required enhanced LIRR service; in fact that was one of the original reasons for the Ronkonkoma branch's electrification.
Other stations refer to localities within a city or larger community. Some, like the Murray Hill and Broadway sections of Flushing, are seldom in common use anymore. Gibson, within the village of Valley Stream, comes to mind. So does Westwood, which seems to be where Valley Stream, Lynbrook and Malverne all meet.
Ludlow, Glenwood and Greystone are all Hudson line stations named for localities within the city of Yonkers. Fleewood and Yonkers are also neighborhoods of Yonkers, but on the Harlem line. Plauderville is supposed to be a part of Garfield and Radburn is supposed to be a part of Fair Lawn, but you don't even see those names in Bergen County street atlases anymore.
Interestingly, most SIR stations are named for their communities, but a full-fledged commuter railroad like SEPTA Regional has many stations within Philadelphia named for streets rather than localities. This is especially true on the lines to the Chestnut Hills and Fox Chase, which seem more like rapid transit lines in that they never leave city limits, and have stops very close together.
Of course, New York City is much bigger in area than Philly and was glued together in 1898 from many, many different towns and villages whose identities live on, especially in Queens.
A lot of station names refer to the past.
When Grumann was still in business, it had a station named for itself on the Ronkonkoma line. Republic used to have one as well. Back in the sixties there had been talk of making Republic the region's fifth commercial jetport, which would have required enhanced LIRR service; in fact that was one of the original reasons for the Ronkonkoma branch's electrification.
It could be argued that the LIRR's Deer Park station has a now-obsolete name. Formerly located right off Deer Park Avenue near the center of town, it was moved east at least a mile at the time of the line's electrification in the 1980's, probably to increase the area available for parking. "Deer Park" is hardly a fitting name for the new location; "Pine Aire" (the name of the nearby closed station), "Edgewood" or "Heartland" all would be more appropriate.
...a full-fledged commuter railroad like SEPTA Regional has many stations within Philadelphia named for streets rather than localities
The LIRR has eight stations named after streets rather than localities. In addition to Broadway, they include Flatbush Avenue, Nostrand Avenue, Nassau Boulevard, Merillon Avenue, Centre Avenue, Glen Street, and Hunterspoint Avenue. You might also add Flushing-Main Street to the list.
Metro North has a couple of interesting station names in addition to the ones you've noted. Merritt 7 is, IIRC, named after the adjacent office development, which in turn takes its name from its location at the intersection of US-7 and the Merritt Parkway. Derby-Shelton is a combination name, from the towns of Derby (where it's located) and Shelton (a short distance away). Mastic Shirley on the LIRR follows the same idea.
Mastic? Mastic?!
Isn't that the goopy stuff that attaches tiles to the wall?
Come to think of it, wasn't Merritt 7 the guy in that one Star Trek episode? You know, the guy back in the "present" mid-1960s in a New York penthouse with the cat, trying to stop a rocket from being launched and the Enterprise crew trying to stop him?
(Before anyone corrects me, I know it was Gary 7.)
Mastic? Mastic?!
Isn't that the goopy stuff that attaches tiles to the wall?
Sure is. Don't ask me how it "attached" its name to a Long Island community :-)
Come to think of it, if Mastic (the building material) is a trademarked item, the manufacturer ought to sue the community for defamation. Mastic Beach, in particular, has a definite Tobacco Road aura about it.
/*
The LIRR has eight stations named after streets rather than localities. In addition to Broadway, they include Flatbush Avenue, Nostrand Avenue, Nassau Boulevard, Merillon Avenue, Centre Avenue, Glen Street, and Hunterspoint Avenue.*/
Nine. You forgot Sea Cliff. It's not located near Sea Cliff, but it's on Sea Cliff Ave. I know it well because off the cars with sensitive car alams parked along Sea Cliff Ave, and the nice uphill >:)
And, I believe it *was* Sea Cliff Ave at one time.
/* You might also add Flushing-Main Street to the list. */
What was the other one in Flushing named?
/*Metro North has a couple of interesting station names in addition to the ones you've noted. Merritt 7 is, IIRC, named after the adjacent office development, which in turn takes its name from its location at the intersection of US-7 and the Merritt Parkway. Derby-Shelton is a combination name, from the towns of Derby (where it's located) and Shelton (a short distance away). Mastic Shirley on the LIRR follows the same idea. */
Well, that answers why there aren't Merritts 1 through 6, I guess...
I still think Country Life Press takes the cake for names.
The one that truely baffles my out of town friends is "Hicksville" Most don't believe me when I tell them it's a real place until they see the map.
Oh yes, the LIRR has Pinelawn - how many other cemetaries have stops along *commuter* rail lines?
You might also add Flushing-Main Street to the list.
What was the other one in Flushing named?
Can't recall for sure, it was on the Whitestone line.
Oh yes, the LIRR has Pinelawn - how many other cemetaries have stops along *commuter* rail lines?
Mount Pleasant on Metro North's Harlem line is located directly adjacent to the Gate of Heaven Cemetery. It has very short platforms on both sides of the tracks and a schedule which, like Pinelawn's, has stops only during the mid-day hours. Although there are a few commercial buildings near the stop, I believe that it's used almost exclusively by cemetery visitors.
What exactly is "Purdy's" on MNRR's Harlem Line?
The other Flushing station on the Whitestone line (originally Whitestone and Westchester RR) was Bridge Street. I have no idea where Bridge Street is/was and if the bridge being referred to still exists.
I am not sure why you came to the conclusion that the LIRR would eventually close those two stations when they are both actively used by the people who live in those areas and who do not want to use NYCTA to get into the city.
The Murray Hill passes right over Murray Street which was probaby named after someone named Murray. As for the Broadway station, the area around Crocheron Ave. was home to many people who worked on Broadway around the 1930's and 40's. After they left, the area became populated with doctors, lawyers and other professionals who liked the stately homes they occuppied.
>>>>I usually hear "Murray Hill" as refering to a neighborhood in midtown Manhattan. That neighborhood
is really just part of Flushing. And the LIRR "Broadway" station is several miles away from the nearest
"Broadway" (even the Queens Broadway is nowhere near there.)
>>>So why are these stations called by those names? Were they once relavant? <<<
The Murray family was prominent in eastern Flushing in the 1700s and 1800s, and so the neighborhood came to be called Murray Hill. Murray Street is a major N-S thorofare, keeping its name when eveything else was numbered in the 20s.
Northern Blvd has operated under many names. It was united under the Northern Blvd. name in Queens only in the early 20th Century, and is now pretty much known as Northern Blvd as far out as the Suffolk line, though it's called Rte 25A when you get out that far. (it goes by many names in Suffolk) Anyway, the stretch between Flushing and the Nassau line was once called Broadway, and it was in the 1890s when the LIRR reached the area. The LIRR, like the MTA with Rawson, Lowery, Beebe etc. never got around to changing the name. For newbies, it's pretty confoosin'.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Brief notes on my company-paid business trip to Washington Sun-Thu:
I rode Metro extensively, using a 6-year-old ticket that still had $16 on it, plus a $5 day pass on Tuesday, a meeting-free day. The Metro performed flawlessly on all my trips; all trains clean and on time, no incidents. The escalators are a serious problem, however. On Sunday it seemed as though one-third of them were not working; one-half by Tuesday. At two exits zero of three escalators were working. At the north exit at L’Enfant Plaza (7th and Maryland), 2 of them were barricaded for repair, so riders had to walk single-file up and down the one remaining.
I was asked to vacate the New Carrollton Amtrak platform by a polite Amtrak employee (perhaps the station manager) who waited until I finished taping a NB train rounding the curve before he spoke. The two MARC trains 15 minutes later were successfully videotaped from the Metro platform.
Thanks to information gained from the cover story in the March, 2000, Railpace magazine, I got shots of CSX freights as well as Amtrak and VRE trains with the Washington Monument in the background at the L’Enfant Plaza VRE station (morning) and with the Capitol in the background from the L’Enfant promenade (afternoon). CSX freights were also video’d from the Orange line (Minnesota Ave and Landover) and Red line (Fort Totten, Silver Spring).
Non transit/train note: a rat boldly walked out of the garden between the sidewalk and IRS building on 10th Street in midday sunshine on Wednesday and snatched up an earthworm, casually taking it back into the cover of the garden (all vegetation, no open spaces) for lunch. We expect the rats to be inside the building.
Bob, you are right. One of the major problems facing Metrorail right now is the state of its escalators. For a while, Metro thought their system invincible, or managers were just lazy in checking and maintaining escalators. Maintenance records were falsified by the supervisors, and thus needed preventive maintenance did not occur. Mayor Williams proposed offering affected riders a refund for their transit costs (WMATA did not warm to the idea!). However, funding for escalator rehabilitation, and now for constructing canopies over the open-air escalators is now being accelerated to facilitate quicker repairs.
>>>Non transit/train note: a rat boldly walked out of the garden between the sidewalk and IRS building <<<
Did he ask where the Sea Beach Line was? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[>>>Non transit/train note: a rat boldly walked out of the garden between the sidewalk and IRS building <<<
Did he ask where the Sea Beach Line was? 8-)]
I suspected he went back into the building to join his co-workers.
LOL
Does anybody know which part of NYC this movie was filmed in? Great subway scenes throughout the movie and I'm wondering which lines they are. At the end, the camera pans away from a cemetary with an "EL" in the backgound. What line would that be and what part of town?
Bullit, or Bullet?
The former was filmed in San Francisco. My favorite thing to do when watching that movie is to count how many hub caps Steve McQueen loses during the car chases.
-Hank
How many did he loose
9 or 10.
-Hank
You got not only the wrong city, but the wrong part of the country.
I thought "Bullet" -- if you mean the original w/Steve McQueen -- was filmed in San Francisco or LA if I recall correctly (haven't seen that one in years, so pardon any errors).
Doug aka BMTman
I seem to remember a Steve McQueen movie with scenes shot on Chicago's "L". There was a sequence with him on top of a moving 6000-type car equipped with a CTA-style pantagraph. The train was on structure, though pans are used only on the Skokie line. If there was a scene with a cemetery with an "L" in the background, it might be Graceland Cemetery, which is adjacent to the North Side "L" between Irving Park and Montrose.
"pans are used only on the Skokie line."
True, but until 1973, overhead wire was used in place of third rail on the Evanston (now Purple) line. And the Purple line goes past Calvary Cemetery at the Chicago/Evanston border. I've forgotten how far south the overhead wire went, but I seem to recall that it didn't go south of the Howard junction with the (now) Red Line.
Two points:
1) The Evanston line is on an embankment where it adjoins Calvary Cemetery. The implication is that a steel "L" structure is seen from the cemetery.
2) The southbound express track from Howard to Wilson was powered by overhead wire. South of Wilson there was a ramp to the surface that connected with the Milwaukee Road, also under wire to Irving Park Road. The wire existed for CTA's freight service, serving a team track in Evanston, the Lill Coal Company at Berwyn and Broadway, and the interchange with the Milwaukee Road. Southbound Evanston Express and North Shore Line trains were under wire from Howard or Evanston/Wilmette to Wilson Avenue.
I don't know when this stretch was third-railed.
IIRC the SB express track was dual powered and in places gaunlet trac in the 50's-60's.CTA cars of that era had poles, not p;ans for overhead. Pans came in with the Skokie Swift in 64..
Original 6000s with poles can be found at the Illinoise Railway Museum in Union, IL - as a youngster I had the pleasure of running those trains on the IRM's 1.5 miles of track (i was a volunteer there)
That movie is called HUNTER...also includes a scene inside Manny's Deli....
Hunter was released in 1980 and was Steve McQueen's last movie. McQueen was and is my all time favorite actor and I saw all his pictures. He died of cancer at 50, a real bummer that saddened me for months. I have a big picture of him in my bedroom. Bullitt was the only time he played a detective and that chase scene in San Francisco is a classic.
Thank you for clarifying that. I forgot the name of the movie. I don't remember a Manny's Deli scene. My favorite in Chicago was the Belden at Clark and Belden, home of the "Belden Belly", the best lox (Nova Scotia belly lox) anywhere.
While the locale of the movie refered to was on the other coast, your question serendipitously recalls to mind that other great subway chase movie (memorable scene of bad guy waving bye-bye through the just-closed subway doors), which also includes an under-the-EL car chase which has got to rank right up there with that of McQueen as one the all-time best movie car chases: The French Connection. That movie was also one of those rare NYC-locale movies to include scenes of the Randalls and Wards (required apostrophes not working) Islands areas. These scenes evoked memories of long ago (before I moved to the suburbs to learn that the dandelion is a weed) when I would go out on Sunday afternoons on my fathers run and get off on those islands to pick dandelions which could be cooked and eaten as herbs.
The movie, however, didnt suggest such a bucolic setting.
The statement "Lt. Frank Bullitt (Steve McQueen) is a San Francisco cop..." appears on several movie websites. It tops one site's list of 10 best car chase scenes.
One of my fav car chase movies of all time is "The Blues Brothers". Being an owner of a Chrysler w/ the heavy-duty 440 engine, I really appreciated the real stunt work that was accomplished with very little special effects and no extra rigging for the Dodge Monaco used in the film.
BTW, it also helped that the movie was shot almost entirely in Chicago, where we were treated to a couple of scenes of the Els outside Jake and Elwoods cold-water flat.
Doug aka BMTman
PS: The classic R&B tunes helped to make it a fav as well ;-)
The scenes of Jake and Elwood's apartment were filmed two different ways. The outside shots of the building were real, it is somewhere on Lake Street on the Lake (Green) line. As for the inside the apartment, they filmed THAT in an apartment on the abandoned connection from the Douglas to the Lake - if you will notice the only trains that go by while they are inside of the apartment are all green and white (old paint scheme), and are all three cars - the filmmakers picked up a standard CTA 6 car train to borrow and then split it running it back and forth in front of the building.
"Bullitt" is one of my faves, I think the car chases in that are just incredible and nothing newly released, even something like gone in 60seconds, can come close.
IIRC that trackage [abandoned for passenger service] is the Paulina connection to enable blue line cars to get to the shops. So technically is still in service. Before the Dearborn-Milwaukee subway was opened it was the Metroploitan route to Logan Sq. and Humboldt Pk.
>>>Being an owner of a Chrysler w/ the heavy-duty 440 engine, ...
Yeah Doug, passes every thing except a gas station, right?? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, Andee, I had to get a second mortgage to pay for filling my tank...:-)
Mine, too. I was disappointed that "Blues Brothers" wasn't on the top 10 list headed by "Bullitt".
>>>One of my fav car chase movies of all time is "The Blues Brothers". Being an owner of a Chrysler w/
the heavy-duty 440 engine, I really appreciated the real stunt work that was accomplished with very
little special effects and no extra rigging for the Dodge Monaco used in the film. <<<
One of my favorite movies ever made and I always stick with it during its frequent showings on Turnervision. Not only were the terrific musical perfs lovingly filmed and perfomed, but it's just LOL FUNNY from start to finish. You could tell it wasn't just another project for these guys. Besides being sidesplitting, it's one of the great car chase movies with several "did he really say that" bits in it, like the Nazi, Henry Gibson's partner deadpanning "I've always loved you" when they drive off the unfinished highway ramp. (The Nazi character seems incongruous these days, but back then, Chicago had just come off a major controversy as neo-Nazis were trying to march in Skokie).
For railfans, two major sequences take place beside and below the Loop.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey Kevin, do you recall the scene where Jake and Elwood grab a parking spot in front of a restaurant by doing a U-turn into it from the other side of a two-way street? I read that they did that after only two or three takes!
(With traffic in the city being what it is these days, that's something I gotta try! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
keep dreaming dougie...you couldn't turn your bleeding heart limousine around on a 2 way street...
Well, I DID make an "unauthorized" U-turn on Ocean Ave by Jerome a couple of weeks back -- or perhaps the ol' memory ain't what it used to be...hmmm? :-)
I was in Chicago (on a training assignment for my then-employer) when the movie was being filmed, and watched the climactic car-chase scenes under Wacker Drive being filmed one Saturday. There were no retakes! The mall that was trashed early in the film was a real mall out in the suburbs; it was closed for one or two days in preparation for the shoot, one day for the shoot, and four or five days afterwards for a complete interior rehab of the two sections trashed. All of the materials for the rebuild had been previously stockpiled on site and many extra workers brought in from outside the area so that it could reopen quickly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon E Mouse. Thanks for that cool "inside" information!
Doug aka BMTman
The Mall was "Market Plaza" off of Roosevelt road in the western suburbs.
Thanks, I couldn't remember which one - I frequented Chicago as a youngster in the '50s and early '60s (when the North Shore was still running), lived in Chicago from September-December 1978 (got married there too, up in Rogers Park, on 28 October 1978) and returned several times over the next year on business but then didn't get back until December 1999. So even though it's not my hometown I've got a fondness for the place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Doug, I rented Summer of Sam, the Spyke Lee movie. Did you not tell me that one of your car was featured in the movie? If so which scene? Just wondering ...
Marty.
Marty, it was mid-way through the film. Berkowitz casually walks across a darkly lit street and approaches two women in a vestibule and guns them down. As he crosses the street he passes a brownish colored (actually, more like bronze) 1972 Dodge Dart (yeah, it was an Al Bundy-mobile, but with nice racing wheels and 2-door sporty model).
The scene is quick, but you can get a good look at it as it is seen again as Son of Sam runs away from the scene of the crime.
My car was given a time period "make-over". Meaning that the production team gave the car repro 1970's era NY license plates (orange w/blue trim) and '77 registration stickers for the windshield (that I got to keep!).
Hope that helps ya out.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that's cool. 2nd time I see the movie.
Where is Layton Ave with the pool in the Bronx? Is that original or did Hollywood embelish?
Great film score featuring the Who's Baba O'reily and Won't get fooled again. Great scenes featuring Adrien Brody and those songs.
Marty;
I assume the movie you are referring to is the 1996 stinker starring Mickey Rourke. Apparently most of our fellow Sub Talkers spend their time looking through railfan windows instead of at TVs, since none of them have correctly identified it yet.
The movie which had no theatrical release, but went straight to video, is set in Brooklyn. I have not seen the movie, but I would take a guess that the El seen from the cemetery was the Jamaica Line. Maybe someone else knows better.
Tom
Yeah, that's the movie that had one of the blocks in Bill Newkirk's old neighborhood closed off for filming a couple of years back. I was making a turn off of Ditmas onto E. 18th St. (Ditmas Park section) and a film crew was using one of the fancy homes there for a scene. So I was directed to back out and go to the next available southbound street. I asked one of the crew what was being shot and he told me "Bullet". I thought that it was some remake of McQueen's original (thank goodness that wasn't the case!).
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Tom!
You're right, it stars Mickey Rourke, Adrien Brody, Tupac Shakur.
By no means was this ever going to beat out "Saving Private Ryan" at the box office or give it a run at the Oscars. It's an inner city movie whith a couple of good EL scenes. Just wondering where this might have been filmed and which lines might have been used in the background.
Quite a few scenes were done in Coney Island as for the others, I don't know.
BTW Tom, if you've never seen the movie, how did you figure it out as opposed to all our other subfan friends?
Thanks again, Marty.
>>> if you've never seen the movie, how did you figure it out <<<
Marty;
It was not very difficult. My Netscape has a bookmark for the Internet Movie Database. (http://www.imdb.com/). Check it out.
Tom
Marty;
I assume the movie you are referring to is the 1996 stinker starring Mickey Rourke. Apparently most of our fellow Sub Talkers spend their time looking through railfan windows instead of at TVs, since none of them have correctly identified it yet.
The movie which had no theatrical release, but went straight to video, is set in Brooklyn. I have not seen the movie, but I would take a guess that the El seen from the cemetery was the Jamaica Line. Maybe someone else knows better.
Tom
Yeah, that's the movie that had one of the blocks in Bill Newkirk's old neighborhood closed off for filming a couple of years back. I was making a turn off of Ditmas onto E. 18th St. (Ditmas Park section) and a film crew was using one of the fancy homes there for a scene. So I was directed to back out and go to the next available southbound street. I asked one of the crew what was being shot and he told me "Bullet". I thought that it was some remake of McQueen's original (thank goodness that wasn't the case!).
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Tom!
You're right, it stars Mickey Rourke, Adrien Brody, Tupac Shakur.
By no means was this ever going to beat out "Saving Private Ryan" at the box office or give it a run at the Oscars. It's an inner city movie whith a couple of good EL scenes. Just wondering where this might have been filmed and which lines might have been used in the background.
Quite a few scenes were done in Coney Island as for the others, I don't know.
BTW Tom, if you've never seen the movie, how did you figure it out as opposed to all our other subfan friends?
Thanks again, Marty.
>>> if you've never seen the movie, how did you figure it out <<<
Marty;
It was not very difficult. My Netscape has a bookmark for the Internet Movie Database. (http://www.imdb.com/). Check it out.
Tom
I did railfanning between New Carrollton and Landover around noon today. When I saw the two engines hauling Acela Regional #131, my jaw dropped. The two engines were AEM7ACs 924 and 901, where 924 was the lead engine. The train arrived at New Carrollton on time.
This tells me that Amtrak thinks AEM7ACs are good enough to run between Boston and Washington, D.C. Before this, I only saw AEM7ACs running between New York and Washington, D.C.
Adding that HHL8s begin to haul Metroliners, I am glad to see these developments.
Chaohwa
Is there a picture of these AEM7AC? It may be the ticket to leave work early from here on the other side of the Potomac River (SW).
You can go to this website to take a look at these AEM7ACs.
Chaohwa
...The train arrived at New Carrollton on time...
Any engine that can get a train from Boston to DC ON TIME is definitely worthy of the trip. For some strange reason, these thru trains are often late into NY in both directions. By the way, I saw that train in Queens, but did not realize the engine numbers' were significant.
I rode Acela Regional #134 today. The lead engine was AEM7 907 and the trail engine was 942. The train was 15 minutes late when it arrived at Penn Station.
I rode Acela Regional #135 back home. The lead engine was AEM7 906 and the trail engine was 947. The train was 5 minutes late when it arrived at Penn Station, but departed on time. When it arrive at New Carrollton, it was 5 minutes late. It was okay.
Chaohwa
Would anyone agree or disagree that A Divsion trains on average are a little faster than the average B Division trains? I have various videos of both divisions and it seems that the A Division trains move a bit faster.
I agree that they accelerate faster. Do A division cars use the same horsepowered trucks that power B division cars? If they do, then the smaller and lighter IRT cars would accelerate faster and would be able to achieve greater speed. But I think that the configuraton of the IRT also increases it's speed, as it's less interconnected with different lines.
IMO, A division trains only seem faster because of their smaller size. Much like the difference between a Dodge Omni and a Lincoln Continental....
Peace,
ANDEE
If speed is your thing, may I suggest you try MBTA "T" where they regularily get up to 50 MPH ... here it's a rare exception.
Mr t__:^)
may I suggest the BART blue line? 82mph in the median of 580 (no joke!)
How 'bout any system other than NYC? SEPTA, WMATA, PATCO (okay, not a subway, but close enough), I'm sure some systems in 3rd world countries can go faster than ours...
Henry:
Nice meeting you yesterday.
SEPTA (Ridge Ave cars on Broad Street Subway) did 63 mph on our Aug 5 Philly trip. PATCO does 65 above ground, originally did 75 until the motors wore out too fast. PATCO is a subway, BTW, in Camden and Philly.
Bob
I'd say just about any other transit system has higher speeds than NYC.
Sure, and most other systems were designed in a time when they were competing with a mode of transportation other than a HORSE!
Elias
I think they are about the same. A division has lots of tight turns such as Park Place/Chambers/Fulton Street/Wall Street, Grand COncourse 5 merge. BMT has lots of stations very close to each other such as Beverley,Cortelyou, Avs H,J,M, etc. IND takeovers from BMT have the same problem such as the Culver Line.
IRT also has lots of close stations esp. in the Bronx with 233,238,241 and 161,167.
New IND is faster/straighter but has been slowed down by timers.
This is going back quite a bit.
I do not know what if anything remains.
However, the old Alexander Smith Carpet Complex in Yonkers had a long RR siding in it. Where did that siding connect to which mainline?
These cars are married t o each other but they are not alike:
7916 and 7917 (saw on the 2 line)
7916 has tilt-in windows while 7917 has drop down windows. Both have the red with beige floor
8715 has one tilt in window, while 7924 and 7925 are also odd. Like 7916 and 7917, one car has the tilt in windows, the other has the drop down windows.
-Stef
Why was it done that way?
Don't know. One would guess that the original intent of the TA was to upgrade the windows on all R-26,28,29 cars.
But, they decided not to continue, figuring "why bother?" since they're going to scrap.
-Stef
That's like #8660-8661 on the #6 line: #8660 has completely different handholds (bars) and #8661 has the standard straps.
wayne
Hey, variety is the spice of life, right?:-)
That's still not the oddest one.
How does one e-mail another sub talker ? i can't seem to locate the addresses.this is the first time i've tried.....
The name in blue is a link, if an email address was provided. No email address, no email contact. Likewise if the address is phony.
-Hank
Dear SubTalk participants,
Thanks to you, I found a Canal St. Station sign at the J, M, Z
Canal St. Station Platform...right there, staring me in the face.
Bravo to all who encouraged me to keep looking.
I DO have a question still. There are two sets of Oriental characters on the sign. Does anyone know the reason? Are they
both Chinese, but different dialects? Is one another Asian language?
Experts please help!
i think if the letters have circles in them its korean. most likely two different versions of chinese though, because it is chinatown.
> i think if the letters have circles in them its korean.
> most likely two different versions of chinese though, because
> it is chinatown.
Although spoken forms of Chinese differ considerably, all are written in the same ideographic characters. A speaker of Cantonese and a speaker of Mandarin may be unable to understand each other's speech, but they can read each other's writing just fine.
Korean would be my guess for the second script. For some examples of the look of the Hangul alphabet used to transcribe Korean, see:
http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~pixeline/heeyun/hangul.html
Does this resemble what you saw on the sign?
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
There are two major dialects of Chinese, Mandarin, spoken by people in most parts of China and Taiwan. Cantonese, is spoken in Hong Kong and southern China. The written language is the same however, with one exception, simplified characters are used, usually only in Mainland China.
[There are two major dialects of Chinese, Mandarin, spoken by people in most parts of China and Taiwan. Cantonese, is spoken in Hong Kong and southern China.]
There are many languages spoken in China. Occidentals call the languages "dialects", as French, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, &c are dialects of European.
Does anyone who has SEEN the Canal St. Station sign iside the
station on the J,M, Z platform, know what 2 languages are represented
there? Without being able to show someone the characters, so far
I'm stuck. Obviously, one is Chinese. But the other...
The 2 characters in Script font translates to "China Town"
The 3 characters in Bold Gothic translates to " Canal St."
The way they are read is different in each dialect.
Most of these characters are also used in Japanese.
Although I don't know the pronunciation in the Chinese dialects,
as a Japanese, I can still guess what it says
You got it! We write the same characters until the "Simplified Chinese was invented by the PRC. We write the same characters but as David Chui said there are slightly different writing form in Chinese and thats the result.
I'm not a literate Chinese, but I think both sets of characters are Chinese. There are different styles of written Chinese, which recognizably produce the same characters but for different contexts. So for example, the way you write a character by hand differs slightly from the way it looks when it's printed in a newspaper, and the way that character is written using formal calligraphy might be different again. Maybe think of handwritten "print" vs. handwritten "cursive" vs. newspaper type, and remember that "g" looks different in all three but we recognize it as the same letter.
I think that the 3 characters written in block (print) style are "Canal Street" in Chinese. If you have the time, you can write down the characters on the subway signs and compare them to the Chinese characters on the street signs for Canal Street in Chinatown and see if they match. The street signs spell characters that sound like "jia nee jeh" (first two characters are a transliteration of "Canal" and the third is the word for "street").
The 2 characters written in the more handwritten style look like they might be the same as the tile mosaic characters in the renovated N/R portion of the station complex ("China Town"). I'm basing my guess on this photo of the old sign and this photo of the new mosaics.
They are Chinese in different writing form.
Dear Wado and David,
Thank you so much for your answers to my questions! What did
I do before SubTalk? If you will both send me your e-mail addresses,
I will be happy to keep you posted on my progress in making these into
cool tee shirts.
Do either of you recall what the signs that were removed looked
like? I think they just had one set of characters, probably just
Canal St. - but could be Chinatown. And I think the characters were
BENEATH the words "Canl St" I have not been lucky in getting a photo
of those signs. I don't want to use the two sets of characters, just
one, so want it to be accurate as to what was there.
Thank you again!
>Do either of you recall what the signs that were removed looked
>like? I think they just had one set of characters, probably just
>Canal St.
Before the renovation, at least back in the late 80s,
the only Chinese characters you'd see were the
two showing "China Town". The ones you see in the
renovated Broadway local platforms. The same as the ones
in script font face on the Nassau platforms.
Does someone here have a copy of the NYCTA employee magazine from the late 60's? There was a cover photo of a young asian female looking over the top of the new sign for Chinatown (aka Kilroy style). It was before the reverse graphics (white on black background) to assist the visually impaired.
I figured we could try something new here. We all hear strange, funny or wierd things coming from Transit Riders (whether we are just passengers or Transit Employees). It might be fun to pass along any anecdotes for others to enjoy.
Here's mine:
A few weeks back I was on my way home from work and had just gotten off the train at Pelham Bay Park. The RR clerk was in a somewhat animated conversation with a customer who was insisting that he (the clerk) direct her to the Uptown train. The poor clerk was doing all he could to try to convince the lady that this was the last stop and all trains are downtown from here. At this point a cop joined in (and wasn't having much luck either).
I didn't hang around too long to see the final outcome because of 2 things: I was just about to burst out laughing and I had to go and catch a bus for the final short trip home.
[I figured we could try something new here. We all hear strange, funny or wierd things coming from Transit Riders (whether we are just passengers or Transit Employees). It might be fun to pass along any anecdotes for others to enjoy]
You can hear strange, funny and weird things coming from foamers at ERA meetings. Obviously, most of those I would not care to share with my fellow SubTalkers...
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
That's on a par with a young lady passenger when I was a conductor on the E in 1966. She asked me ifthe train stopped at 7th Ave. and I said yes we do. She looked at the destination signs and asked why does it say Hudson Terminal? I hope my explanation was clear to her.
When I was a conductor on the 2 a lady asked me "does this train go to the next stop?"
"yes" I replied. When we got there she said "this isn't the next stop"
Just one of many inane questions the public ask.
The two odd couples of the R-33 fleet, 9130-9225 and 9115-9212, were spotted on the same southbound #2 train going south yesterday, and may I add, they were coupled to each other. This is the first time I can recall of seeing these IRT odd couples together.
-Stef
Arial1234567890GJMQR
Swis721 BT1234567890GJMQR
Franklin Gothic Heavy1234567890GJMQR
Verdana1234567890GJMQR
Once there was a discussion about the fonts used on subway signs. It was suggested that the type used was Helvetica (or Arial). But in making bullets of my own, I find that this is not the font used in most signs. In the four different fonts displayed, may letters are the same, but there are certain ones that differ.
1
The only font used for this number on any map, number board or sign is Swiss. Notice, the head is in block form, rather than a downward stroke, and there is no foot. All of the others have strokes and/or a foot
2
Station signs and older R26-33 signs use Swiss or Arial. But maps, number boards and newer rollsigns (including R-62/a I remember the first 2000's sitting in 180 St yard signed up as "2" when delivered) use Franklin Gothic. Since the FrGoth "1" has a stroke and a foot which do not appear on these signs, it stands that different fonts are being used, (or there is another font besides these which includes both characters)
Mr. R68A #5200, your "5200" is in Arial or Swiss, but the "2" is wrong, so you need to do it in Franklin Gothic!
3-9 & 0 are basically the same in the various faces except for Verdana.
G
Swiss or Franklin Gothic on all signs. Arial and Verdana are never used.
J
on older R-40/42 front signs, it is Franklin Gothic (looks almost like backwards "L" Verdana is close also, except for head serif)) But elsewhere it is Swiss or Arial: full candycane shape.
M
could be anything except Verdana
Q
on station signs and replacement R- 40 & 68 signs (thick letter with round yellow or orange bullet) it is Swiss. (tail goes throug side of letter) Arial is close, but the tail has a slight curve. Elsewhere (including original R-68 signs in diamond yellow) it is is something like Franklin Gothic or Verdana. (tail on outside of letter only) But even still, the tail on the signs/maps is a bit more to the right and is shorter.
R
On station signs is Swiss (curved leg), but elsewhere (maps, roll signs) is Franklin Gothic (straight leg; Arial and Verdana are close, but the legs are slightly different
There is also another similar font-- News Gothic, which wouldn't come up in the HTML. The "1" is the same as Franklin Gothic, the "2" is like Swiss or Arial, the "G" like Swiss amd Fr.Goth, the "Q" like Swiss, but with a little wave, and the "R" like Franklin Gothic
So it looks like a variety of fonts are used and some mixed for the different signs
Go to the Transit Museum in Brooklyn, and they have a whole exhibit
on signs used in the subway system. They explain their fonts,
production, etc. I was there just yesterday :-)
As a volunteer at the museum, I had a large part in restoring many of the signs used in the sign exhibit, Thank You for the compliment!
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey! You can't *do* that!
Juse because you have a font on your computer doesn't mean that others can see it. This is a problem with all HTML, you may specify any font you like, but others will not see it unless it is on their own computer. What I am seeing in your post is not the SWISS 721 that you are demonstrating.
:)
Elias
Well, I have 2/4 of these fonts, why does IE default to "Times New Roman" for all alien fonts?
If it didn't the text wouldn't be displayed at all.
Usually, fonts aren't used for demonstration; they're used to format blocks of text. In that case, I'd rather have the computer display the text in the wrong font than not display the text at all. You usually can't tell when an unkown font is replaced with Times--it would be interesting to see how often this happened.
I think there -is- an optiont to change the default font on your browser. Search for help on "default font."
It defaults to Times New Roman because you told it to, or more likely since that is the way MSIE came from the box (they had to set it to something after all) you just did not change it to a font that you did like. Somewhere in the inner workings of your browser program there is an option for you to select your default fonts.
Elias
For me it defaults to Arial.
Select Tools|Internet Options
In the General tab, click the Fonts button.
Each language has it's own font sets, pick the language you use (in this case, Latin) and from the list below pick your web page and plain text fonts.
The accessibility button (also in the general tab) allows you to choose to override font sizes and faces and colors or one or two of the three and have everthing show your default settings.
IE 4 is the same except that Internet Options is under the View menu.
IE 3 is similar to IE 4 except that instead of saying Internet Options it just says option
IE 1/2 users should be flogged for using total crap.
In all three cases, the Internet (or Internet Options in IE 5) icon in Control Panel opens the same thing. One can also right click on Internet Explorer (or The Internet) on the desktop and select Properties. This option is only available on Windows 95 SR-1 or greater (but not NT 4.0), or with IE4 or greater installed (including NT) assuming the icon has been enabled in the advanced tab of these same Internet Properties.
[Juse [Just] because you have a font on your computer doesn't mean that others can see it.]
If you use Paint to make a bitmap of those font samples, then convert it to GIF or JPEG in Photo Editor, the desired effect should take place.
Here's an example from a font I made.
You can download a copy from my web site:
http://nav.to/rmmarrero
Express -> Transfer Point
Main Line -> Download Center
The standard font is Helvetica. Arial is not the same as Helvetica. The two are similar (similar enough to be indistinguishable to most not "in the know" unless viewed side-by-side) but are definitely different. (Helvetica is smoother and cleaner than Arial.)
If you want to do a comparison like this for others to see, do it as a bitmap (or a PDF with embedded typefaces). Don't rely on others having the same faces, and don't rely on the faces showing up identically on everyone's system.
Mark
i feared this might happen.
I guess the reason the News Gothic didn't come up when I tested it is because I don't have that one in my computer. (I used to have it and I have it at work) I also tested "Helvetica" in the HTML, and it was exactly the same as Arial, but then I read in my HTML book that you must have the font in your computer tyo see it (Don't know why the computer must recognize it to see it online. I can understand why the WP program would be this way), and that a sans-serif font will be substituted with Arial, so I guess that's why Helvetica looked just like Arial. Arial(sans serif), Times Roman(serif) and Courier(fixed with/typewriter) seem to be the universally recognized fonts, according to the book. Perhaps Helvetica is the font that uses the different characters used by some ot the others (The Swiss "1", the FrGothic "2" and "Q", etc. Does anyone know?)
One trick is to go to the library or a friend's or job computer and view the post. If it has those fonts, then you can do the comparison
Like I said, Helvetica is the magic typeface you're looking for. Look:
HelveticaArial
Mark
So then Helvetica is the font used on the platform signs and some roll signs, (the 1, 2, Q and R match, as well as the G),and it's identical to the "Swiss" I have in my system (Helvetica is a translation of "Swiss" someone said before)
But once again, on newer rollsigns and maps the 2 and R are definitely Franklin Gothic and the Q is also close to FrGoth, but still not exact (and J is FrGoth on older R-$2 signs, but is Helv. elsewhere). So I guess it's as Elias explains (parallel post) about copyrights and the need to make slight changes when imitating other fonts.
For whoever has Franklin Gothic in their system, (don't most PC's?), here are these letters again:
2 J Q R
Once again, that "2" is what R-68A #5200 needs for his #plaque, if he has that font.
So was the Helvetica you posted a pdf or bitmap like you suggested?
The character sets I posted were bitmapped images of Helvetica and Arial as they appear to me. I don't have Franklin Gothic and so I can't see what you're talking about. If you want to discuss the differences between typefaces, you really should use one of the suggested methods in order to ensure that everyone is looking at the same thing.
Mark
Mark;
Is it possible that "Helvetica" and "Arial" are trade marks? I checked out my 500 font CD from Bitstream and found neither Helvetica nor Arial fonts there, but many others with trade mark symbols. I also went to their website where they claim to have 1,300 downloadable styles, and again there were none named Helvetica or Arial. I do remember Helvetica being a type style name before computers, and I have an Arial font that came with WordPerfect.
Tom
The font doesn't show up because all that a web page is is an ASCII text file. Anything that can't be represented with textual codes (like images, fonts), has to be separate. Browsers support download of images to display them in a web page, however fonts merely reset to default (unless you create a list of fonts in the tag).
The code I used for this post is <font face="Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica">.
If you don't have Tahoma installed, you'll see Arial.
If you don't have Tahoma or Arial installed, you'll see Helvetica.
If you don't have any of these fonts, you'll see the default font of your browser.
The other thing you must keep in mind it that *real* printer's fonts are copyrighted by the various type foundries, and while none of these foundries do very much with lead type anymore, they still own the font designs. So if another foundry wanted to make a face similar to that of another, they would have to redesign it with subtle differences, and also give it a new name. Some fonts are old enough to be in the public domain, bue even these have had to be redesigned for the digital age and so are new fonts once again.
Elias
R-16 Fans,
I saw a commercial by a company called LYCRA on my Bronx Cable TV System, a little while ago, which featured 6387. 6387, which many will know, currently resides at the NY Transit Museum in Brooklyn. I recognized the car almost instantly, and the people who did the commercial gave it away. In the last few seconds, passengers could be seen exiting the car and going onto the platform with R-17 #6609 directly across from the camera. Interestting commercial. So 6387 gets her minutes of fame, ain't that great?
-Stef
R16 Fans,
Fans? I thought I was alone ....
You're not alone, Chris!
Maybe so Karl but I'm sure you were happier with the A-B's! For my sake I was quite happy with the R9's on Jamaica el.
Perhaps teenage railfans in the 1940's and 1950's were easily impressed by new subway cars. The only cars with florescent lighting that I rode were the R-10's on the A. It just seemed like the BMT was modernizing when the R-16 came on the scene.
The "Standard's" were reliable, but they were old. The R-16's were brighter, seemed faster, and had soft cushioned seats. The first dozen or so did not have standee poles, and that was a mess during rush hour.
Unfortunately I completely missed the R-9's tour of duty on the Jamaica Line.
Trust me, you are not alone. Even an R-16 has it's place in history....
-Stef
I recently bought a used NY Subway Map jigsaw puzzle. The puzzle arrived today, and really looks interesting. I enjoy jigsaw puzzles, and plan to start working on it tonight.
The puzzle is 500 pieces and is copyright 1971. I don't know whether I have a 29 year old puzzle or a recent release of a 29 year old map in jigsaw puzzle form.
Has anyone else come across other NY Subway Maps in jigsaw puzzle form?
If it's the same one I had as a youngster, 1971 sounds about right. If I remember correctly, it was a variation of the 1969 map with the stations as circles and ovals instead of squares and rectangles. It took me about a week to complete (I was only 11 years old at the time)
and God only knows what happened to it. I haven't seen one of these in years, so you probably made yourself a nice little score. Have fun!
I have this EXACT map puzzle. It is dated 1971. It's really unusual. I call it the "bubble" map, with all the stations shown bubbles, with the letter/number of the route that stops in it. The rush hour lines are shown as dashes, as opposed to the solid lines that regular routes are depicted in. The color scheme is identical to the official map.
hey karl... i had one of those puzzles too... i put mine together, but was missing one piece... i need a 4 sided piece, one side curved, one side straight, one side serrated, and the last side with an indent for a fingered tab... when i contacted the company 28 years ago, they told me that my missing piece must have gone into another box... see if you have an extra one of the described pieces, as i have had a tremendous lack of closure on this issue for the last 28 years...
barb, do you think paul is kidding??
i don't believe anything he says
The puzzle is done! It took the two of us just about four hours with very few interruptions. If any of you like puzzles you will certainly enjoy working on a subway map puzzle. It's like combining two hobbies into one. I'm sure I will do this one again and again.
Billy- You were right about the circles. I think it helped in completing it.
Chris- I'm sure you remember that 168th St is still on this map with service by the QJ & KK.
heypaul- Surprisingly I did have an extra piece, but it was obviously from a different puzzle, so I guess I can't help you.
Do you have my missing piece of Jamaica Bay?
The extra piece that I had was not from the subway puzzle, but from another puzzle completely.
You and heypaul ought to combine forces. You could end up with one complete puzzle and one with two pieces missing! :-)
karl... was the extra piece all dark green with fingers protuding from 3 sides and a pocket for a finger on the 4th side... that could be the missing piece from the "four score and seven" piece gettysburg battlefield jigsaw puzzle that was also missing a piece... i started that one while in high school in 1957...
The extra piece is offwhite with a narrow light blue stripe and the letters CTY in the upper right corner.
It's up to you to come up with the puzzle that it belongs to! :-)
If anyone was looking for the R142A on the No.6 Line the train was in the barn at Westchester Sq today. The R142A was doing good from Saturday to Tuesday but Wednesday the train started having problems. On Wednesday the train made the 9:13AM Brooklyn Bridge but taken out of service at Westchester SQ Station because of a door problem that did not up on the Computer Monitior. The train did go back in service for the 2:52PM but a stop arm from a Home Signal North of 59 Street on the Downtown Local track came up under the train causing delays with the Downtown Local Service. The cause was a Signal problem that keeped getting worst. The Train between me and the R142A which was a R36 had 2 stop arms under the train. I was holding at 68 Street for 15 Minutes.
On Thurday the R142A did not run in the Morning but made the first trip as a 12:36 Pelham. The cause is Unknown.
Well I hope they run the train tomorrow which would be Day 1 again.
Lets hope we see 30 Days by October.
There must be hope for the Bombardier R-142 because it's been running strong for the entire week. They and their Kawasaki Counterparts will have to pass the 30 Day Clock sooner or later.
-Stef
Hopefully R142A will run today because I plan an "R142/R142A" tour today.
I will ride Acela Regional #134 to Penn Station around 8:16 AM. After a short break at Penn Station. I plan to ride an R142 #2 to 238 Street to take pictures on Redbirds and of course, R142. Then I will take a Redbird #2 to Simpson Street and walk to Whitlock to wait for the R142A #6 train. I will travel to Westchester Square to take pictures.
After that I will do my personal shopping in the afternoon. I will ride Acela Regional #135 back home. I have to do my research beginning Sunday.
I want to take pictures on the Redbird fantrip Sunday, but my research doesn't allow me to do that. So I go to my Plan B to have a tight R142/R142A tour.
Chaohwa
Well, don't be disappointed if the train doesn't show up on time, the #6 is almost always on schedule until the evening rush, but for some reason the 2 will become delayed with no problems (on the line) at all (I think its because they often allow the train behind the 142 to skip in front at the terminals, not sure why). With these new trains running around you can tell very easily if the route has had any disruptions during the course of the day.
R142s must be getting superstitous...
13-0
The train did make similated stops for one trip opening on the wrong side again. The train should start day 1 on Sunday.
I hear the R142 on the No.2 is going strong.
I just rode the R142 today, I have a two hour swing on Saturday and I went up the Franklyn Ave and got right away, I took it to Downtown Brookyn. I knowest one thing with the door. The bells rings and the yellor light flashes after the door already started to close. Other then that it road nice.
Robert
The purpose of my NYC trip today is to ride R142 and R142A. Thanks to Oren's posting on his website, I can plan when to ride both of them.
After I arrived at Penn Station, I went to ride R142 #2 train first. The ride was smooth. I asked an inspector how many day this train has not had problems. He said 11 days. I told him I was going to ride R142A #6 train. He told me the R142A train was in E180 Street shop under repairs and it would not come out the rest of the day.
But I half believe and half doubt what he said, I went on my plan to get off at Simpson Street and walk to Whitlock Avenue station. When I was at Buhre Ave to take pictures, an #6 train conductor told me the R142A train was out. Since I have already taken its picture when it was testing on Dyre Avenue line last March, I didn't feel down.
I have some observations on #6 line. There were a lot of R29 Redbirds and two R33 Redbirds running today. But R36 Redbirds were out. I also saw two R62 #4 trains deadhead to Westchester Yard. Why are there some R62 activities on the Pelham line?
Chaohwa
The 4 Line gets washes at the Westchester Yard car wash. Why it doesn't go to the Concourse Yard car wash, I don't know.
That's the...
running on...
's
questions & answers.
I thought the #4 trains had their facials done at Wakefield Yard (wasn't it a #4 train that was bumped in the rear by a runaway Redbird while waiting in line for her bath back in February 1998, causing that derailment and fire?)
They have probably changed things since then.
wayne
No nothing really changed they still go to 239 Yard as well as some No.1,3 trains.
#4 trains get washed at Westchester, Concourse and 239 yard
The R142A was on 21 Track at Westchester Yard most of the day exept for the test run without anyone on it. It came into Pelham on Time for a 3:47PM but it went back to the Yard and I took an R62A instead. The R142A was over the switch for about 1 Minute and I left late and was given a Skip to Parkchester.
There was alot of R29'S on the line today. There were some R33'S from the No.2 Line out and some R36'S. There was a good mix of trains today.
We do have 10 Cars of a R62 on the No.6 Line and the only answer I got was that they need the train for service because of a shortage of trains on the No.6 Line.
Wow, the must need a lot of trains to run the #6 and Diamond #6.
I count the following in a spot inventory:
R29: #8570-8691 (is that the highest R29 number?) 122 cars
R33: Two consists at least, mixed bag - 20 cars
R36: 34 ML, 44 WF - 78 cars
R62A: #1651-1890 240 cars
R142A: 10 cars
122 + 20 + 78 + 240 + 10 = 470 cars
I guess that's enough to cover all the bases. It's nice to see this kind of diversity on a single line. I really don't like predictability (like on the "F", where everything is R46) (unless the line consists entirely of cars I like to ride; i.e. "Q")
wayne
Well I decided to do some "hard core" railfanning today.
I started with the 7 Express from Flushing to Times Square.
It was crowded as usual, but we did move fast throughout the whole elevated portion on the express track, and no track workers were out yet (it was 9:30am). There was a backup of several 7 trains Flushing bound, to just after Willets Point.
At Times Square I changed to the 3, just to 34th, then walked on over to 6th ave to catch the B,D,or Q to Grand street.
Just as I was coming down a Q pulled in, and I got the railfan window.
The R40 Slant roared through the express tunnel, and into W4th.
After hanging out in Chinatown, I was lucky enough that another Q came into the station just when I got in. I got the front window there too,
and it was an equally fast trip back to 34th. After having Lunch I came back down to 34th, this time for the N train. After an R left an N was right behind, and it was R32's. I got the window again and it was a pretty fast trip, the T/O was going kind of fast between stops. After the curve, the Montague street tunnel wasn't too bad. It's not that slow either, faster than the Steinway tubes.
After the Dekalb ave crawl, we sped along the 4th ave express, as we flew by stations. I stayed on till 59th, where we finally passed that R train that got ahead of us. It got so far ahead of us because the switches that we have to go through are very slow, you crawl past WD's before Pacific. At 36th you have to punch for B or N, and what's interesting is the switch is right in front of the train, and you can see it move. Cool!
The return trip from 59th back to Manhattan was not nearly as fun. The N was a Hippo, and we were going so much slower the whole way, the express was more like a local, and you could see how slowly we went passed the stations.
I got off at 34 and got the shuttle to Queensbridge. I stayed in the rear car, which would become the front car on the way back.
The 63rd street line has very nice tunnels, and they are now working on the north track at Queensbridge. And the train goes pretty fast in the downhill stretch Queensbound after Lexington ave.
After getting back to 34th I took the R to WTC, then walked on over and got an E. There was a delay, and people were waiting for the E. It was an R46, and let me say they turned the train around within a few minutes, people got off, people got in, and off we went.
I got off at 14th street and got the L. We had a Slant R40, and I was fortunate to get the window again! I took it just to Bedford, just to get a trip through the 14th street tube. And let me say, boy was it fast. Those T/O's play it so close with the GT's, literally the change from red when the train is right on top of them. I think 14th street is one of the fastest river tunnels in the subway system.
I really though we'd get tripped and the emergency brake would come on!
I took the L back to Union Sq and caught the N back to 34th, then a Q to W4th. I had to wait about 10 minutes for it, even though it was around 5pm, as several B's and D's went by.
I changed at W4th for the A. It was an R44, and was crowded. I took the A to Jay street to get the F(my last train of the day).
The R44 rode great, these trains are so quiet (just like the R46).
Then I got the F train to Queens, and the Rutgers tube was impressive
it was a very quick ride from York to East Broadway.
There were some delays, after 47-50 because of congestion (usual spot). After a slow ride though those 53rd street tubes, the Queens Blvd express ride to 71st/Continental was nice. Riding on those R46's is so relaxing, I almost dozed off! Listening to my tape of adult contemporary music didn't help!! They just said it's gonna be hot next week, maybe I can get some shut eye on the train instead of this very uncomfortable apartment! :-o
Anyway I then took two buses, the Q65A and Q44 to Flushing, it was 6:45pm and I was tired. And I got the N21 home.
That's my rather exhausting day of railfanning. What is the most railfanning (on NYC subways) have many of you done?
Seen on Lifetime channel tonight, I have seen it before. New York city based story, with a quite pretty girl, nice and hefty, making moves on a motorman and finally winning him from his stuffed shirt girlfriend. Basically, a soap opera but cute.
NYC scenes nice, even had one of what looked like an IND entrance. BUT all the train and station scenes were Toronto. They had a Toronto station marked as if it were 14 St. on 7th Ave, and the Toronto cars were numbered for R62a, signed up for the 1 line, there were even red color stickers under the numbers. Car was 2329 I think..is that accurate?
But hwhy was everything but the train and station scenes filmed in Toronto?; and since when do crews change at 14th/7th?
i'm not sure if 1799 was the highest numbered r9 car?
no it wasn't... you should know better...
thanks for the info...
LOL...talking to your self again HUH
Peace,
ANDEE
it's the only way i can get any respect...
btw, are you about to join the fray with our 51 year old friend in la?
51? Pretty good, since he once admitted that he was born on 1951.
hey dan... i tutor high school and college math... if i figure 2000 - 1951 = 51, then i should know, right???
I have to drag out my abacuss (sp?) for that one!
;-)
fyi It's one 's'. I gave up on those things years ago; I only use my fingers and toes now. :o>
wayne
A LIRR conductor friend of mine can use one an abacuss as fast as most people can use a calculator. He's trying to teach me but I'm having a hard time with this high-tech stuff.
I think you have contracted HPS, better keep your mouth covered when near your staff as we don't want you spreading it off this site :-)
Mr t
HPS????? Oh no - not me. Actually HPS is not all that bad and I seem to have just a mild case. In any event, it's likely to pass.
When I visited Lithuania for the first time in 1992, I saw a store clerk still using an abacus. The last time I was there in 1998, electronic registers were very much in vogue.
Oh well, he can't count either.....
Wish me luck, I have to drive up to his neighborhood today on some business. Hopefully we won't cross paths....
I will not be getting in any deeper than I am now. I just had to say what I said. I can't stand liars who think everyone else is stupid.
Peace,
ANDEE
"... it's the only way i can get any respect ..."
OK, want some respect ? Answer this air, sea, or land transit trivia question ... what happened in 1926 ? You should deffinitely know this one (that's the only hint I'll provide), if you don't, you will be realy embarrased when I broadcast the answer ! GOOD LUCK.
Please no help from any of his other friends ... we trying to get him some respect.
Mr t
well... thurston... my initial thought was the sinking of the titantic... but that was 1912... then i thought the mutiny on the caine, but that was sometime in the 40's... i don't know... and no one has e-mailed me an answer... so tell me...
heypaul is going to kick himself on this one .....
1926 was the year that GREYHOUND started up as "Motor Transit Corp."
Well at least you now have a bit of trivia to start up conversations on those long rides to FLA ?
For a consolation prize try 1922 or 1940 (nothing to do with IND) ?
Hint: Ask a BusBuff ....
Mr t__:^)
thurston... i am lousy with dates, both historical and women... so are you, at least the historical...
i just ran over to the greyhound website, www.greyhound.com and found a little historical blurb:
Founded:
Greyhound was founded in 1914 as the Mesaba Transportation Company in Hibbing, Minnesota. The company was renamed the Motor Transit Corporation (1922) and Northland Transportation Company (1926) before incorporating under the Greyhound name in 1930. Greyhound Lines was organized in 1987 after it purchased the United States bus holdings of the former Greyhound Corporation (now known as Viad Corp.). Greyhound Lines merged with Laidlaw, Inc. in 1999
i never thought of greyhound in connection to your question...
however i will have time to think of greyhound as i will be starting the 25+ hour ride home today on greyhound...
be sure to tell dougie to alert health officials in the city to my return and possible reintroduction of the heypaulvirus...
[(from) the greyhound website, www.greyhound.com and found a little historical blurb ... Founded:
Greyhound was founded in 1914 as the Mesaba Transportation Company in Hibbing, Minnesota. The company was renamed the Motor Transit Corporation (1922) and Northland Transportation Company (1926) before incorporating under the Greyhound name in 1930. Greyhound Lines was
organized in 1987 after it purchased the United States bus holdings of the former Greyhound Corporation (now known as Viad Corp.). Greyhound Lines merged with Laidlaw, Inc. in 1999]
Hmmmmm ... will have to write/e-mail the "trade" that I got this out of, looks like they had a kid doing the research that didn't do his/her homework ... Thanks for the correction, guess I owe you at least a little respect ?
BTW, 1922 = Fageol Safety Coach ... 1st intercity bus co in USA
BTW, 1940 = Buses carry more folks then trolleys in US for 1st time.
FYI, I have a bunch of these that I use to pass the time when I'm prevented from going ding ding at Branford.
Mr t__:^)
Also, Laidlaw is having financial difficulties right now (guess the school bus operation biz isn't going so great) and are considering taking offers to sell Greyhound, in case anyone on the board wants to pony up a few bucks for their own bus line.
guess the school bus operation biz isn't going so great
How wonderful, maybe they can go out of business and this can help the whole industry collapse and public transit companies will be forced to replace the services of TW Transit (school busses).
Well I guess you know it is #1802 but what is the LOWEST numbered R-9 car?
BTW I was in Brooklyn yesterday and got to see my old flame RD335, who was resting in the 36th Street Yard along with an R14 friend.
wayne
I'm sure you already know this but the first R-9 was 1650!
The last R-7A was 1649.
Yes, you are correct. I'm often perplexed by folks who refer to all of the individual fleets as "R-9". Even my Dad does this. And it's easy to see why - all 1,803 cars looked basically alike, with only minor differences, except for those that underwent major modifications (like #1575, #103, #484, #771 etc.) But I couldn't refer to an old friend like #1277 as an R-9.
wayne
Well, the name Ralph comes to mind.:-) The anniversary of that dubious event is fast approaching.
I refer to those lovable moaning, groaning, grunting, howling, snarling, and hissing IND juggernauts with the spur-cut bull and pinion gears as R-1/9s. If I'm referring to a specific car by number, I'll use its specific contract number: R-1 100; R-4 484, 800; R-7A 1575; R-9 1689.
Ah, trick question. I was going to say 100 until I realized you said R-9 and not R1-9.
heypaul, what's the number on your R-9 cab???
;-)
R-1 numbered 100 - 399 ACF
R-4 numbered 400 - 899 ACF
R-6-3 numbered 900 - 1149 ACF
R-6-2 numbered 1150 - 1299 Pullman Standard
R-6-1 numbered 1300 - 1399 Pressed Steel Car
R-7 numbered 1400 - 1474 ACF
R-7 numbered 1475 - 1549 Pullman Standard
R-7A numbered 1500 - 1574 & 1576 - 1599 Pullman Standard
R-7A number 1575 Pullman Standard -Rebuilt by ACF
R-7A numbered 1600 - 1649 ACF
R-9 numbered 1650 1701 ACF
R-9 numbered 1702 - 1802 Pressed Steel
thanks steve... i still think that 1799 is the highest numbered r9 in the 1700 numbered cars...
i noticed that you showed in red 1802.. was that one of the original redbirds??
i even have to admit that was't funny or worth the trouble
i still think that 1799 is the highest numbered r9 in the 1700 numbered cars...
Unless I have car #1800 renumbered in the computer 1799.5 :)
amendment to the above:
R-7 Pullman: #1475-1499
wayne
Same type-O in both of my books. I'm not sure which is correct so I bow to your records.
Here's a question I have - were the R-6-2 the only GE cars in the entire R-1/9 fleet or were some of the R-9s (the PRS ones) GE as well?
Thanks
Wayne
R-1 & R-4 were Westinghouse
R-6-3 were Westinghouse
R-6-2 were GE
R-6-1 Westinghouse
R-7s were also GE as were all R-7As through 1599.
R-7A 1600-1649 were Westinghouse.
R-9 1650-1701 were GE
R-9 1702-1802 were Westinghouse.
I believe #1803 was the highest numbered R-9 and the very last pre-war car. The first post-war car was R-10 #1804. Later on the 1800-series R-10's were re-numbered to 2950 and up to merge in with the rest of the R-10's that were numbered 3000 and up.
I have no record of car #1803 as part of the R-9 fleet. Where did you get the info?
#1803 was the first R-10, later it became #2950 (they renumbered the cars sequentially by adding 1147 to the original number).
That is according to my first master numbers book, and that's about as reliable as the information gets.
wayne
Sorry about that. If it was 1802, I was off by one! Not bad for going by memory. The R-9 order of IND cars was an oddball number to make up for cars that were wrecked or otherwise destroyed up to that point.
I believe that would be two R-1 cars and one R-4, which were wrecked in the IND tunnel beneath 9th Street in Brooklyn in 1936, when they were almost new. These would be #212, #378 and #472.
That was a gruesome accident: a train parked in 7th Avenue station had its brakes leak down and it began rolling backward towards the portal.
A "C" train deadheading slammed into it; two were killed in the accident. Not sure which cars were in which position in the wreck.
wayne
Wasn't it true the handbrakes weren't properly set on that parked train?
Are there any details of 1575's accident which resulted in its metamorphosis into the R-10 prototype?
Yes, I got my account from a good source - LarryRedbirdR33. The improper setting of the brakes was contributing factor in the crash.
This is one of the few examples of a true telescoping of a NYC subway car (the lead car of the "C" telescoped the second) - another would be the Williamsburg Bridge crash of June 5, 1995 (car 4664) and the Church Avenue crash of Feb. 12, 1973 (car 4420, hit by a rock-solid R-6-2).
wayne
The good car in that Church Ave crash in 1973 was R6 1236.I reported for a job there that day and was one of the first witnesses to the wreckage.It looked like a New York remake of the IC Chicago area crash in which the old steel MU car from 1926 tot
ally demolished the rear car of a new MU train it hit.
1236 had about 4-6 feet of the front end pushed in; the second car of the R40 got that much damage or more. The rear R 40 was demolished.
Cause: old time motorman took off handbrakes as he walked thru the train BEFORE the compressors which had been cut out were running long enough to charge the brake system. No air, handbrakes off, away we go.
On another note my conductor on the LL one day walked a train we were taking out of the storage track at Myrtle Ave. I found no handbrakes, had started cutting in compressors, met my conductor who said he thought he'd do me a favor and take off the handbrakes. Ouch. Luckily it didn';t roll, it was an old AB, but could have rolled .
A BMT standard on a roll is not a good thing. Gangway, everybody! I'm afraid such a car would have taken out even an R-1/9 without getting so much as a scratch.
Of course, that smashed-in Triplex in the photo found in Subway Cars of the BMT looked to be pretty crunched. 6078A and B got the worst of it along with 6043C. No problem there - they took 6078C, grafted it onto 6043B, and renumbered it 6043C.
Yes, the Pullman MU that ravaged the Highliner in Chicago had some damage to the front end only, back only to the very first window and not into the seating area - just the cab and standee area opposite it.
The St.Louis Car bilevel became a wad of mangled metal and a coffin for 45.
I wonder if R-6-2 #1236 was scrapped as a result of the accident. And the second R40 wound up donating a whole nose to another so the damage must have been to the blind end.
wayne
I think I remember the 1236 being on the scrap line at Coney after that; won't swear to it but as R1-9 types were being scrapped in that period I doubt very much that they would have repaired it.
Indeed the damage to the second R40 was at the blind end.
So that means the folks who say that #1440 at Seashore is a 7A are wrong ? Their roster says mfg 1937 by ACF.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston:
The highest numbered R-9 car was 1802
BMTJeff
No,it wasn't the highest. They all sat 12 feet, 1-15/16" over the roof rivets. :-0
Are you in Florida, Brooklyn, or at Niagara Falls with your R-9 cab preparing for the big event?
Niaaagara Falls.....
i'm still in florida karl, so the north east is safe from me... i took webtv down with me... being that no one in my family is talking with me, i thought i would fall back on my internet family to antagonize...
I thought for sure that you would be back in Brooklyn by now!
Please be sure to give us a few days advance notice of the big event at Niagara Falls concerning you and your R-9 cab.
Should have come to North Dakota. We've had enough humidity and bugs this year to compete with Florida. No ocean bathing though; but enough trains on BNSF to make you think you're near the el.
Per official MetroCard AFC Bulletin:
stasrting 9/ through 10/31/2000 ***while supplies last***
There will be "a limited number of MetroCards featuring Ten special editions "10 Waves of Immigration" , each featuring a different nationality will be sold from the MVM. Additionally these cards will be available from Emigrant Bank Branches and on-line at metrocard.citysearch.com"
*******These cards will not be available at any booth******
We do not load the MVMs so we do not know what kind of card(s) are in any machine at any time. It is possible that a station'smachiens might have more than one spercial card at any one time.
08/26/2000
ZZZZZZZZEMIGRANT ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Those are the ones that spent most of the time on the boat (or plane) sleeping.
Typo- it s/b Emigrant
O good I thought you too had HPS. That makes me feel much better.
And by the way thanks for the post.
Mr t__:^)
per official AFC bulletin. Goes on sale at these booths on 8/2/2000.
As usual a booth might not actually receive the cards or a booth not on the lisdt might get the cards due to a transfer by supervision. If there is one or more part-time booths at a station, please check the full-time booth. I have grouped stations to save space. IF not all booths at a station will have the card I'll list the lines and add the word "only".
110...B,C,1,9,2,3
103...B,C,1,9
96....B,C
50....A,C,E,1,9,
34....A,C,E,B,D,F,Q,N,R **ONLY**
23....C,E,F.1,9 ***ONLY**
14/8th Av..A,C,E,L
w4....ALL
Spring...C,E,6
14/6TH..L,F,1,2,3,9
8th...N,R
Broadway-Nassau/Fulton..2,3,A,C,J,M,Z
Bowery..J,M,Z
Broad...J,M,Z
3rd av...L
1st av...L
116..1,9,
42..1,2,3,7,9,N,R,S **ONLY**
18...1,9
Christopher...1,9
Houston...1,9
Canal...1,9, **onlu**
Franklin St (Manhattan)..1,9
Chambers St IRT.. 1,2,3,9
Astor Place...6
Bleecker/Bway Lafayette...6,B,D,F,Q
CORRECTION: 8/28/2000
I've seen pictures of this car that is to be used on tomorrow's trip. I can appreciate that it looks like a schoolbus chassis, but what is it mounted on?
Is that an old subway car floor, or is it a railroad flatcar with anti-climbers added to the ends?
I hate to give partial information. I have 2 different versions of the Revenue & Non-Revenue drawing books & that car is mentioned in neither one. I can say that the (0F) would normally indicate a flatcar and it does look like an old school bus mounted on one.
Thanks Steve! It just occurred to me that perhaps flatcars used in rapid transit might be built with anti-climbers as new.
I don't suppose that OF might possibly stand for "old flatcar".
0 is a Zero not the letter. The cars that carry the garbage dumpsters are referred to as 0RFXX indicating refuse flat cars while work flatcars are just 0FXXX.
Don't forget, there are other cars that carry numbers like 0R722 and 1R722.
I don't think I'm likely to forget since I have some of these cars in my fleet. However what I stated stands, the 0 is a zero, the R stands for revenue as in 0R721.
[the 0 is a zero, the R stands for revenue as in 0R721.]
That's exactly what I dempnstrated. The 1 is a one, and the 0 is a zero.
It's a 1949 Mack bus body
08/27/2000
[It's a 1949 Mack bus body]
Are you sure? I was always told it was a GM bus body, two pieced together in fact.
Bill "Newkirk"
This thread ran several months ago when photos of the contraption were posted. IIRC, some conclusions were drawn.
Bob
08/27/2000
Having rode OF116 on today's fantrip between Bedford-Nostrand and Smith-9th Sts. I must say it does ride like a bus attached to a flat car. Without the front and rear parts of the bus body to distinguish between a Mack or a GM, it's kinda hard to tell. So I'll leave it go at that!
Bill "Newkirk"
Wish I had been there, but had to put on a blue uniform and run streetcars. Gotta question for the tech types (Steve, JeffH, Engine Brake or anybody else that knows): Does 0F116 have controls so it can lead? I know from all the excellent posts about the trip that it did a one point, so......
I didn't see any controls in there when I peered in, and when it did lead there was on the front with a radio while the train was driven from 9321 (the redbird coupled to it).
Could somebody tell me why back then the "C" train carry 4 cars and now you see 6 or 8 cars in service?
Back in the early 90's the MTA used to use shorter trains on some lines durring midday hours. Six car B and 4 car C, J and M trains were common.
Where the 4 car trains OPTO?
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
I'm not sure any full width cabed trains ever ran on the C Line other than the R110B. Even the R110B isn't OPTO with 6 cars.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
No, none of the short trains run earlier in the decade were OPTO. No train capable of being OPTO controlled has run on the C line since the R46's ran on it in 1980.
Early 80's i remember riding on the F line that have R46 4 cars in the weekends visiting my grandparents. Also remember riding K line that have R40 Slant 4 cars ran from 168th St to WTC midday. I think MTA stop using short cars in the early 90's because of increase passergers riding on the subway.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Wait, Do you mean short cars or short trains? 10 60-foot cars is the same as 8 75-foot cars (except for the less wasted space because of fewer couplings).
The R-46s were assigned to the then-CC in 1980 during the height of their infamous truck cracking problem in an effort to restrict their usage (the CC was a rush hour-only route back then). 6-car trains was the norm.
A year or two ago a 4 car R-32 C train rolled in to W4th in the middle of the day on a Saturday (this was before it was extended to Euclid on Weekends). The conductor was in the first and second cars, was he supposed to be there?
Henry R32, do u know what conductor was in the first & second cars on R32???? because "A" cab doesn't have door controls & "B" cab does have door controls. R32/38/40/40M/42 "A" cabs doesn't have door control.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
This was changed a while ago, and most A cabs have door controls now.
-Hank
The change to 8-car trains on the weekend came seemed to become permanent when the line was extended to Euclid Avenue for weekend service.
Prior to that (when the line was just a CPW/8 Ave local) weekend trains were usually 4 cars, but occasionally were 8 cars. Some weekends all of the C's would be 8 cars, but most of the time they were all 4 cars. I could never figure out the logic of why some weekends had 8 car trains on the C -- it didn't seem to correspond with major events.
Weekday trains on the C have been 8 cars as long as I can remember.
Chuck
I havent seen weekday 4 car C trains since 1995. The practice was ended when the midday Manhattan bridge closure reroutes robbed the CPW local of B service.
There are still signs uptown that show where to board "short" trains, which were depicted as 4 cars long.
That used to be the case back in the days of the AA. On some Saturdays, you'd see 4-car AA trains, in which case E trains would be 6 cars and A trains 8 cars. On other Saturdays, I would see 8-car AA trains and 10-car A and E trains.
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but the stopping marks at 42nd St. varied for different train lengths. 4-car trains stopped in the center of the station, more or less, and the R-32s were so quiet that I wouldn't know they were even there until they glided by into the tunnel. Same thing with A trains. An 8-car train stopped further away from the tunnel entrance than a 10-car train, and there were many times I had to scramble down the platform to board an 8-car A train.
Finally saw Bless the Child yesterday, (Wait for the video!!!).
1. Is that what Delancy station looks like or did Hollywood change it.
2. There is some graffiti on the walls of the station, was that there or has hollywood again added something?
I decided to go Trainspotting this morning at my home station, Rosedale. To my surprise, I saw a Train coming in on Track 1, which is usually where the Trains to NY stop. But the Train stopped let people off. I even asked the Engineer to blow his horn for a Tape recording I was doing. Funny Engineers are very nice.
One thing. Could it be that M-1's horns sound different than an M-3?
Also, do they Wrong Rail when going to NY? or just going eastbound?
M-1 horns are indeed different from M-3 horns.
The railroad infrequently schedules trains to run on tracks that typically carry traffic in the reverse direction. The two center tracks on the main line west of Jamaica are the most obvious example of this. Other times, a train will wrong-rail because of trouble on its normal route. This can happen in either direction, and the train is usually put back on its normal track at the first possible interlocking.
Watch the crap!
Mark
I do believe the LIRR is signaled for two-way operation on both tracks, least wise I thought that was the plan when I was still riding on the Babylon branch back in the early '80s
Elias
Look at the Port Jefferson branch timetable, for example. You'll see a number of rush hour trains that are scheduled to wrong-rail every day. Just look for the "platform" notes at stations such as Hicksville and Mineola, for example.
I believe that the Port Jeff, Ronkonkoma and Babylon lines are the only lines to have scheduled wrong rail service during the rush hours.
You can see it in the track notes on the Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma schedules, on the Babylon the trains aren't noted because all of the stations are island platforms so it isn't as clear (but I know from experience that the 7:02 or the 7:37 from Rockville Centre which operate on the normally eastbound track.)
More interesting was the wrong railing I noticed through Rockville Centre just before the PM rush hour one day -- regular westbound locals run on the normal track, while deadheading trains going into the city were running through westbound on the eastbound tracks. It certainly was strange to see both tracks in westbound service at about 4:15PM!
The weekend wrong-railing on the Long Beach branch is for track work for the next few months.
Even the subway wrong rails from time to time.
The M-3 horn is multi-timbral as opposed to that of the M-1 which is two notes an octave apart. I believe the chord the M-3 horn sounds is F#7+4.
wayne
The M-1's were all delivered with a single-note Leslie SM-44 horn.
The M-3's were all delivered with two-note Leslie S-2M type horns.
The M-3 horn is multi-timbral as opposed to that of the M-1 which is two notes an octave apart. I believe the chord the M-3 horn sounds is F#7+4.
wayne
Although I'm not positive, I think the M-3 whistles sound more like diesel locomotive whistles.
08/26/2000
[Although I'm not positive, I think the M-3 whistles sound more like diesel locomotive whistles. ]
Well....you're sortof close. The M-3 horns sound the same as the #5000 series bi-level cab cars. But not the same as the #400 series diesel electric and #500 series dual modes. That's the horny truth!
Bill "Newkirk"
That's the horny truth!
HEY! This is a family group.
Hey, it's me BX55...I'm back. If you've been around here for a while, chances are you know about me and my fascination with graffti, urban decay, and...the Bronx. I know there are a few others of you like myself who are afficionados of this sort of thing. Well, you're in luck. I am currently working on a webpage dedicated to the Bronx, specifically the South Bronx. I hope to have it up and complete by late September. But I need your help...
I'm looking for pictures, stories, first accounts of the South Bronx. Maybe you grew up there or used to hang out there or like me, are just interested. If you can help, e-mail me and talk to me.
Yo Yo Yo in the house of ___________________(fill in the blank at your discretion)! Welcome back stanger and may you find whatever you need in life; on a can of roasted peanuts just like Homer Simpson did!
Marty.
Would spending four years at Cardinal Hayes High School (1964-1968) be of any help?
FP all the way!!!
I was born in The Bronx Hospital in 1949. Not only did the 3rd Ave. El run right outside the hospital but it also ran all the way downtown to City Hall and South Ferry at that time. I beleive the 149th St. junction was still there and in use allowing 3rd Ave. El trains to run up the White Plains Road Line as far as Freeman St. Those crossovers just north of the Freeman St. Station were used to turn the El trains around. I didn't live far away from that. I lived for my first 5 years on Hoe Ave. just off Freeman St. Hoe Ave. was one block up a steep hill from the Freeman St.Station. When I was 1-1/2 years old I was missing from my apartment. My Mom found me down by the station looking up at the Lo-V's, Hi-V's, Gate Cars, MUDC's and maybe even Q-cars. Little did she know that was the beginning of a long and beautiful hobby for me....TRAINS!
Yes and my mom was probably sorry she ever took me on the IRT. Yes, High-V's Low-V's, great. Too bad She didn't take me on the 3rd Ave. el before the day it died. I'd have been a real pest to ride it home!
All that, a view of the NY Central electrics , MU's, and steam on the Putnam Division. Then my American Flyer set.
For those interested [Help] there's a magazine called Back In the Bronx published out of Scarsdale, PO Box 141H. zip10583. Phone 1-800-7BRONX5. Also www.backinthebronx.com
Born 1943, lived in Highbridge until 1965; Tremont and Walton for 3 years. Taft 1961. Gladto see the Bronx alive again.
I was born in The Bronx Hospital in 1949. Not only did the 3rd Ave. El run right outside the hospital but it also ran all the way downtown to City Hall and South Ferry at that time. I beleive the 149th St. junction was still there and in use allowing 3rd Ave. El trains to run up the White Plains Road Line as far as Freeman St. Those crossovers just north of the Freeman St. Station were used to turn the El trains around. I didn't live far away from that. I lived for my first 5 years on Hoe Ave. just off Freeman St. Hoe Ave. was one block up a steep hill from the Freeman St.Station. When I was 1-1/2 years old I was missing from my apartment. My Mom found me down by the station looking up at the Lo-V's, Hi-V's, Gate Cars, MUDC's and maybe even Q-cars. Little did she know that was the beginning of a long and beautiful hobby for me....TRAINS!
I have been up to the Bronx both in the bad old days and today. I am particularly fascinated with the great renewal that seems to have taken hold in the borough over the course of the last ten years or so. Grant it, there are still pockets of blight here and there (a surprising sight was an entire apartment block on Stratford Avenue in Sound View all boarded up and abandoned), but by and large, the entire area that was such a problem in the 70s and 80s has been eradicated and reborn. It is a heartening sight. Southern Boulevard between Westchester Avenue and Hunts Point is a bustling commercial strip. New one and two-family homes are springing up all over the place. And here's the clincher: There is a beautiful art deco (white brick with orange and red trim) apartment house which stood at the Cross Bronx Expressway at Clinton Avenue and it was nothing but a shell for such a long time. On August 12, I happened to be driving along the Cross Bx and I made a point to look for it = THERE IT WAS: no longer abandoned, but totally rehabilitated, a beautiful mural flanking its west wall, and it appeared to be fully occupied. Again, there is some work remaining to be done in a couple of places, but the Bronx is alive and well. Let me know if you need any more input from me on this; I'd be glad to contribute. The elevated stations along Westchester Avenue (especially the rehabbed ones) bear mentioning.
wayne
My favorite thing is seeing the pre-WW1 apartment buildings restored. The 1900-14 or so period had such nice ornate architecture. I hated seeing it devastated. Also found it neat riding the #11 bus that there were private homes in what had been Fort Apache area, unfortunately they have bars on the windows so all not perfect yet.
Suprisingly, this news item went unmentioned here (unless I missed it) but on Thursday, Governor Pataki signed a bill that raises the fine for littering in the subways from $50 to $250 beginning in November. In over two decades, I have never seen a summons issued for littering in the subways so my questions are:
Will people be more mindful of littering because the stakes have become so much more serious?
Will this new higher penalty cause greater enforcement by the police due to the 500% financial incentive?
Enforcement will be increased five-fold.
5 times more than 0 enforcement! Thats... wait a minute!
Yeah, and 5X more the number of uniformed cops I see everyday in my 4 round trips on the E?........The panhandling situation over there is out of control. From those Oriental people with the orange plastic shopping bags; to the guy who plays the cymbals with the kid dancing; to the guy who for years says his apartment just burnt down last week, a week before his employer moved out of New York leaving him jobless & homeless along with his son; to the guys "entertaining" on the station platforms; it goes on and on.........Increasing the fine fivefold: BIG DEAL. NYPD don't patrol the subways as it is.
Out here in California, the fine went from $250 to $1000 a few years back, and the place is now dirtier than ever. I think NYC is cleaner....
I wish it would, but I personally think they wont be bothered.
I certainly hope the police don't choose what laws to enforce based on "financial incentive". Fine money does not go to the police - that would be a clear conflict of interest. Indirectly, though, such an incentive may exist in that the fine money would be controlled by politicians, who may be in charge of the police and may give them directives concerning enforcement.
When police directly benefit from fines (or from "forfeitures" in drug cases, etc.) they are in effect nothing but legalized robbers. Most states have laws to prevent this corrupt practice, but unfortunately the federal government has encouraged it by letting police departments "launder" siezed money through the DEA. Hopefully, the forfeiture reform bill that took effect this past week will help curb these abuses.
Perhaps in a perfect world you'd be correct. However, I have it on pretty good authority that while the beat cops may not have ticket quotas, the captains do. It would be perfectly understandable in todays politically charged climate within the NYPD for a captain to be told that if his precinct didn't issue X summonses for littering, it would indicate that he didn't support the governor's policies.
Whether or not a police captain "supports the governor's policies" in a political sense is definitely nobody's business, but it his his responsibility to carry them out nevertheless - at least to the extent that this is consistent with equitable enforcement of the actual law.
Anyway, regardless of any differences we may (or may not) have on political or social issues, I'm glad you are still around SubTalk, Steve.
>>> I certainly hope the police don't choose what laws to enforce based on "financial incentive" <<<
Dan;
I agree with what you say about the conflict of interest when police share in the proceeds. In the bad old days, a town constable who arrested speeders, and the Justice of the Peace who tried the violators were both paid from the fines from convicted motorists in that court. No body complained as long as only out of towners were stopped.
Even if those enforcing the law do not directly share in the larger fines, the increase in littering fines sends a signal to both the litterers and those enforcing the litter laws that society thinks this is more important than it did before, and therefore there may be an increase in enforcement.
Tom
Enforcement will probably never occur against the small offences.
A little litter is normal (or so it would seem), but when an agregious offence occurs, such as dumping trash on the right of way, the police and the courts have something with a little more bite to it when they choose to use it.
Kind of like the speed limits out here, 10 mph over, and they ignore you, but cause an accident or something, and they will also nail you for speeding.
Elias
You'd think this law has never been enforced seeing all the garbage left on the tracks. Also, that stereotype of "using the subways for urinals" keeps getting more true everytime I go down to Roosevelt Av and have to endure the smell, same holds true on the F-line in Jamaica. If I can get fined $50 for smoking on the 7-train platform (this was 3 years ago), then somebody should be fined for throwing garbage onto tracks or any other part of a subway!
Jorge "Mr R-62/62A" Catayi (The artist formerly known as Broadway Jorge)
Look for a lot of tickets to be issued, especailly in stations where the MTA has told the television cameras to go to, on Nov. 1 and Nov. 2. After that, back to normal...
I think the courts treat fines under $100 differently from fines over $100. You can't skip out as easily from a $250 fine as froma $50 fine. That is probably the reason, but I certainly do not know the exact laws of NYS.
Will this new higher penalty cause greater enforcement by the police due to the 500% financial incentive?
Only if the money goes to the donut fund :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Except for a brief visit in '98 I haven't been back in the Windy City since '95 when I moved away - back then SSL was running three round trips a day. Are they still running passenger service? If so does anyone have links to official and/or fan websites?
http://www.nictd.com/
Yes, the South Shore Line still runs. Electric trains from Chicago to South Bend. Most of the commuter traffic is west of Michigan City.
-- Ed Sachs
Might add that it is presently run by Northern Indiana Commuter [Transit or Transportation?] District, NICTD.
I couldn't find the previous thread on this topic. Did anyone mention the signs on the 1/9 warning that only the first five cars will open at South Ferry---in all the languages of the subway map?
Greetings to All,
I hope those going on today's excursion enjoy themselves, get plenty of pictures for this site, and give those not going (like me) a report of today's happenings.
Unfortunaletly with deep regret, I have to withdraw from the excursion, because of work related issues. I'm looking forward to hearing how things went later this evening.....
Regards,
Stef
Gasp!! I totally forgot about it. I wanted to see how wide the gap is myself at 57th/7th.
The gap is about 6 inches. You can see it anytime on the IRT cars at the transit museum.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was there, but I didn't go on the trip, while waiting, I was at the rear of the platform at the exit stairwell wearing a Quiksilver shirt, waiting, waiting, waiting till about 11:05 when Rolling Thunder comes on into 57th street. I almost had a heart attack but no, lol. I took one helluva lot of pics. At the front, at the back, signs, storm door open, inside outside of the Observation Car. Heh, that was a lot of fun. I met up with Trevor when he was inside the train and he gave me a packet that they gave the attendees of the trip. Looked cool! IF ONLY I COULD HAVE GONE! Heh, next time. "Farewell to the R142/142A's" LOL!
--Clayton Parker--
You couldn't have asked for a better day, the combination of a redbird, yards, hot ass photo stops and great weather, it was probably my most favorite fan trip taken yet!
Met some of the Subtalkers and even a few bustalkers, Ya'll are a really cool bunch of guys in person! Never Change, had fun, great laughs, let's do it again soon!
--Trevor Logan, Jr.--
www.transitalk.com
Was that you hanging off the track stairs at the end of one of the local platforms on the Culver line as we sped by on the express during the photo op.? That's an interesting shot.
Yes that was me hanging of the stairs, at Avenue P!
Trevor
I can tell you all without any fear of contradiction, having pored over schematics from old editions of Engineering News-Record and its predecessor Engineering News, that there is a difference of 6½” between the edge of IRT platforms and the edge of BMT/IND platforms (position from track center). I will give you such info as follows:
- IRT (from track center to platform edge) - 4’ 7½”
- BMT/IND (from track center to platform edge) - 5’ 2”
Because IRT cars’ widths range from 8’ 9” over thresholds (on the R62/62A cars) to 8’ 9½” (R12-36 units), there would be a distance of 9¼”-9½” between the car threshold and the platform edge of BMT/IND platforms. Compare this to the mere 2” gap between BMT/IND car threshold and BMT/IND platform edge; and to the gap ranging from 2¾”-3” between IRT car threshold and IRT platform edge.
I noticed at the Unionport yard there is a brand new R-142A train parked in the yard.I know there is one R-142A train being tested on the 6 line.I havent seen any R-142's except the one being tested on the 2 line.My question is are the Bombardier people are slow to deliver their product than the Kawasaki people?I might be wrong there are two new trains that sit in the barn at Unionport Yards, but I cant tell that they are R-142's or R-142A's
142As are on the outside in Unionport Yard (7231-50, 20 cars). 142s are in the barn (6311-30, 20 cars). Another 142 set on the way? Stay tuned.....
-Stef
I put togther a brief page detailing what I could cull from Subtalk posts about the delivery and testing dates of the 142's delivered to date. Look here: R142 Delivery Notes. Additions welcome!
By the way you probably are all curious in this statistic; to date, there have been 4,253 posts to Subtalk with "R142" in the subject.
-Dave
Good idea, Dave. I'll help out in any way possible.
-Stef
A Columbia University graduate by the name of Camilio Jose Vergara whom we've spoken about before has Book out called the New American Ghetto. He now has a second generation of it. I forget the title but you can see it at Barnes and Nobels. It features many sights of the South Bronx. You might want to check it out. I'm sure you'll find out allot of what you're looking for.
Later, Marty.
.......Caught it at 110St yesterday morning @ 11:20pm. I heard this humming and it round the curve. Boarded 6301. The car interior is very nice. Got that toilet paper color. I like the strip map..... Digital signs are cool. The movement on the train is very nice. There were transit officials on the train. There was police in the last car(6310).
Questions:
1. If the train was to go on the 3 line how would they change the electronic strip map??? The 3 makes less stops than the 2.
2. How many different sayings they have recorded for the train?(When we got to Nevins, a 4 car came ad the male voice said we apologize for the delay. Then midway between Nevins and Atlantic, the voice said that we waiting for an arriving train to make passenger connection or something to that effect.....)
Now its time to go R142A hunting.......
3Train#6301Mike aka Elmer Fudd
It is more realistic to say how they will change the strip map when it is switched to #5.
Chaohwa
What the T/O has to do is turn off the strip map and reprogram the trains computer or have the Conductor make the Announcements.
Assuming the computer is reprogrammed would the map then show the new route with new stations or would it just be "dark"
I suspect that if you were to remove the plastic overlay with the writing on it you'd see a sign with lots more lights than stations on any of the lines. So all they need to do is install the proper plastic overlay on top of the lights and program the computer. All of the labels on the sign are just stenciled on a plastic sheet, not electronic lights/leds.
1. I believe it blinks out and the text "listen for announcement" lights up. If it's a permanent change the computers figure out which lights are to be used and, I guess, the sign covers up the other lights.
I think the sign has a bar code in the back so that the computer can make sure that the sign is correct for the route, otherwise LISTEN TO ANNOUNCEMENT would have to come on.
Today's Redbird/Inspection Car fantrip went very well. There were many SubTalkers there in addition to the throngs of other railfans. I took 70 pictures and there all up on my website now. Go to http://www.zdeno.com to see them. The first text link in the site contains all of today's pictures including our loops around the Jamaica and 38th St. Yards (the 38th St. pictures are under the "work trains" link.)
Also, the theme of the day was the rusty R33s's constantly arching on the third rail.
Here is a picture of it:
If you missed out or want to relive the day go to: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
Damn good shot. Anyway, for those of you who didn't go, we went on the Queens IND (after relaying from 34th St to the local) around the loop, to the Crosstown and Culver lines; had a lunch stop ("This is the lunch stop on this train, everyone please leave the train") at Coney Island; up the West End to 36th St. Yard; then, realizing we were at least 2 hours late, backtracked to Ninth Av. and headed straight for the N and 7. Generally we ran nonstop on the local track except for the Culver and the 7 from QbP to 61st St. The consist was 9312/9335/9375-9374/9313/9321/0F116.
BTW, on the Culver and the 7 to Woodside we went express, of course. Bill Newkirk made a lot of money selling calendars, and Mark W. mentioned that the Coney Island Yard tour, hopefully, will be on 9/17.
Good spark shot!
I had a great time today both in a subfan trip sense and especially seeing and meeting SubTalkers whose posts I’ve been reading for several months. The name tags were a good idea (thanks Allen). I especially enjoyed meeting, and riding much of the trip with, Keystone Pete, since he and I often post in the same threads (SEPTA and Eastern PA PRR). Others I wish to mention that I enjoyed meeting are Doug aka BMT Man, Newkirk (I bought a calendar), Shaun Flxible …(who lit up like a spotlight when I said I presumed he likes buses), Subway Buff (long conversation, major contributor to the website), Mark W, Henry R….., and others whose names or handles escape me at the moment.
Bob
I had a great time. We started on the Southbound Local track at 57/7 and then we were shifted to the express track after 42 then the uptown express at 34th. We wnt via the R linr to 71/Continental and then to jamaica Yard. We had a series of BIEs enroute to Jaamica Yard but finally got the situation under control.
I too enjoyed meeting many of my subtalk/bustalk firends and renewed avquaintasnces with long-time subtalk.bustalk friends. After lopping Jamaica Yard we went via the G line including express from 7th ave to Church Ave.(but we went local from Hoyt) . We arrived at Coney Island and left 30 minutes late due to a track circuit related signal failure at Stillwell and the D line.(We did not go to the Brighton line due to this problem and did not return to Stillwell.)
Due to the delay we went 3/4 of the way around the loop at 38th st yard, seeing various work trains and the Jackie Gleason Bus Depot. We returned by 9th ave, changed ends and went to manhattan via 4th ave local track and the montague Tunnel to 57th/7th and back to Queens ,this time via N line to Queensboro Plaza where we shifted to the 7 line for stops at 61/Woodside and our final stop at 111.
Good news is that there will be more trips and they are working on the Lo-V cars!
I can rest now- I got my calendar from Bill Newkirk--If you have the l;east doubts of the worth of the calendar, put the doubt away. It is well worth the price- same as last year.
Maybe with luck if there is a Low-V trip I'll find the ambition and cough up the money to visit NYC again and ride it. Would be neat to meet some of you cats (and chicks too?) For me there'd be nothing like reliving the feel of the IRT that I loved so much as a kid. To those in charge: please include the Bway-7th express to Van Cortlandt.That ride on upper Broadway was great on the old stuff.
<Van Cortlandt.That ride on upper
Broadway was great on the old stuff.>>
...still is.. even on a r-62A.
I had a great time I loved the sparks flying from the single cars. Question, Was there any reason why that was happening so much? It would have been better if the cars WERENT slowed down and some more exp tracks could have been used. Other wise it was a great day indeed.
I have a crew question:
I know that A and B division have different training. I thought I recognized the C/R as an A division person (I think I saw the person on all of the previous Lo-V trips).
QUESTION: would a train crossing from A Division (Using A Division cars) to B Division need a person from B Division if only as a lookout or can they work "alone"(or with just a TSS)
Yes. I think the guys working the trip have worked both divisions during their transit career.
I know the C/R from previous trips and the hobby in general. He is from SubDivision "C" which covers MOW. So, technically he has rights over either division, irrespective of the mixing of A "revenue" equipment on the B Divsion.
Doug aka BMTman
08/28/2000
[I can rest now- I got my calendar from Bill Newkirk--If you have the l;east doubts of the worth of the calendar, put the doubt away. It is well worth the price- same as last year.]
Thanks for the plug Subway Buff! I do my best to try to satify everyone, kinda tough these days.
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope to get my copy of Bill's calendar at this weekend's Fall Trolley Show. If not, I'll be requesting one via mail order.
Also, that's good news regarding additional trips. I think most people won't mind paying a premium for a trip such as this benefiting a charity. It's a win-win for everyone.
Thanks to all for your great descriptions, and High St / Brooklyn Bridge for the pictures. I was unable to go (a good reason - on vacation in Cape May, NJ and I really did see the sun), so these posts make me feel as if I was there.
Too bad the trip ran into trouble with BIEs, GOs and other delays. It would have been terrific, I'm sure, if the special had been able to go into the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St (you were so CLOSE), even if you weren't allowed to go onto the platforms. And an express down the Brighton line would have been ideal!
--Mark
sigh! And that is the last closed station for me! I have been on the plat or passed through all of the other closed stations!
This is the second near miss!
I was lucky enough to step foot on the platform during the Farewell to the R-30 Fantrip" back in 1993.
Perhaps a future "Farewell to the Redbirds" fantrip will allow it.
--Mark
Yeah, Bob, it was great meeting you too!
I also ran into Harry Beck, Trevor Logan and some of the crew from the Branford Trolley Museum.
A GREAT day, with a few surprises that were saved for 38th Street yard.
Doug aka BMtman
with a few surprises that were saved for 38th Street yard.
I was unable to attend the trip, so please share the surprises with those of us who couldn't go.
Was the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St one of them?
--Mark
Missed/forgot a few things of note...
The train was supposed to arrive at 10:30, it came around 11 (on the local track, regular trains used the express track).
At 34th, we relayed where the F trains were supposed to, and we had cut right in front of the F at 57th, so the platform was full of confused folk.
The T/O tripped the brakes 3 times on the Jamaica yard leads, twice underground and once while on a switch at the tunnel portal over the Grand Central Pkwy(blocking 3 of the 4 tracks).
At Nostrand (G) we used the center track for relaying, so a G could pass in front to pick up those going for photo ops at Smith/9th.
At Church, the plan was for people going for photo ops to take the train to any stop before Kings Hwy, and take the next F to meet up with us there. Unfortunately, some problem on the line kept us at Church for about a half hour, and the F that picked up everyone took a long time so we waited at KH for a while.
We arrived at CI at 2:50, we were supposed to leave at 3:45 but the train returned at 4:15.
We didn't get to go to the Brighton because of signal problems over there, though I suspect the 2 hours late thing helped along the decision.
The discharge stops on the way back were as follows: 36st/Bklyn (unannounced, put people got off), 34st, 42nd, 57th / B'way, Woodside, 111st.
With the exception of the Culver and part of the Flushing lines, we went on the local tracks the entire way.
Some notes about the train:
All large windows replaced! No peering through scratches for us! Brand new windows all to ourselves! Storm doors, side doors, and picture windows were in perfect shape (except for the small openable windows).
Car 9321 had the fans on a slow speed.
Weird phenomenon: The lights blinked out even when no gap in the third rail was present (all cars in sequence, not at random).
Train is louder than BMT/IND trains, not just the curve squeal through open storm doors but also the roar.
The third rail arced often enough to light up all 4 tracks (and tunnel) of the Queens IND several times.
We entered and exited through one door per car.
> The T/O tripped the brakes 3 times on the Jamaica yard leads, twice
> underground and once while on a switch at the tunnel portal over the
> Grand Central Pkwy(blocking 3 of the 4 tracks).
This was due to an incorrect valve setting on the Observation Car. The TSS and others got off the car once we were in daylight at Jamaica to fix the valve. Not the T/O's fault! At least it didn't cause a trip at-speed along the Queens Boulevard line.
-Dave
...which would have been a big problem for the many railfans using cameras in between cars.
There was also some problem with signals on the Brighton Line which made for a change in plans (the initial plan was for a move from Coney Island up the West End and turning in the 38th Street Yards. After which the Redbirds would be doubled back to Stillwell for routing over the Brighton).
Apparently due to the earlier delays -- as David pointed out -- the trip was running way behind schedule. After the 38th Street Yard move, I bailed out at 9th Ave. for a B train to 36th St. The Redbirds continued on into Manhattan to terminal at 34th Street & 7th Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
08/28/2000
When I was on the Stillwell overpass waiting for the special to return from Stillwell Yard. I did notice one (D) train leaving Stillwell heading "out the back door" possibly up the West End or Sea Beach.
I overheard somebody joking about a youngster who commented about the yellow painted observation car (F-116) to his grandmother, "look Grandma, a school bus is following the train"! Art Linkletter was right, children do say the darndest things!'
Bill "Newkirk"
Now I know why Pigs wasn't there. School bus and R33S's, two of his favorite methods of transportation.
Peace,
ANDEE
That is because of the INCOMPETANCE of the TSS out there today. At home signals with offside trips, that is where there is a signal and tripper adjacent to it for the opposite direction, there are BIEs caused by the US&S stops coming up after the rear of the train immediately clears the home signal and the offside pops up before the rear trip clears the area. If the diversion valve was properly cut in, the offside tripper would have no brake pipe air and therefore would not dump the train. One BIE is enough but three makes me wonder why they even put a TSS on the train to begin with.
I'm pretty sure the supervision on the trip was a mutual
acquaintance of ours,and I can't imagine him missing something
like that. More likely the diversion valve was leaking.
If the valve leaked far enough to dump the train, it would have to be cut out permanantly, as it would constitute a brake pipe rupture. I doubt Bill, if you were referring to him, was on the train as that would not have happened with him there. I have made moves under his supervision that were not possible not only performed to rule, but safe as well. If he had forgotten to reset the valve, he would have thought of it after the FIRST BIE, not after two more. Who knows who was on the train, I wasn't there. Mistakes do happen, but I wouldn't swing strike three on a BIE.
Guys, all the arcing that you evidently saw (I wasn't on the trip)
is not because of any defect in the equipment, has nothing to do with
the amount of rust (which is substantial) on the R33s, etc.
The third rail on the B division is slightly lower and slightly
further away from the track centerline (I'm sure W.B. has the
exact measurements) compared to A division. When A division cars
are operated on the B division, their contact shoes are near the
bottom of travel and hence make poor contact with the third rail.
If there is any sort of pitting or low spots on the third rail,
it arcs. Try coming up the lead from Coney Island onto the Culver
with 4 Lo-Vs, one of which sometimes doesn't take power, a steep
grade and a third rail gap, eh Mark W an crew?
Especially prevalent on the B line between 71st St & 62nd St., car body lights stayed out virtually all the time in my car and the cars coupled to it.....several track fires were started in the area of Jamaica Yard because of the arcing......the disparity in third rail placement is the same as to the wideness of the cars: so that the original IRT & BMT would not be compatable when you consider both railraods were built under private ownership.
It was interesting to read the many observations of the trip. I was there also (incognito, mainly due to not seeing the posts on nametags, although I did talk to a few of you).
I enjoyed the trip somewhat, although it could have been a little better. I was a little dismayed that, as usual, it started late. While it certainly isn't the end of the world, it does get to be a big deal for those of us coming longer distances and having large 'cushions' built into schedules already (my day started at 6 AM to make a NJ Transit train at Hamilton at 8:15 - the 9:15 would've gotten me to NYC about 15 minutes after the scheduled starting time, although I probably would have been early still since the 8:15 got in over 10 minutes before the scheduled time at Penn, and the conductor said it happens all the time (lots of padding on the schedules!). As it turns out, I used the time to my advantage, taking a short ride on the detoured F in both directions, and almost hopping a Queensbridge shuttle.
As has usually been the case on past fan trips, there is much sitting. Again, there are some valid reasons, but we did get held quite a bit at Bedford/Nostrand and way too long at Church (another fan took a road F to photo the special and a second road F to Coney - we chatted there, where he STILL beat the express-running special!).
As I noted, for those of us coming from further away, time constraints are issues. During the lunch stop, I debated whether to continue (I was leaving town on Mon and had to organize and pack Sun night). When the special didn't show at the platform at about 3:40, I was still debating - I had gotten quite a few photos and rode the Crosstown line for the first time, so the remainer was territory I had already covered and thought I could live without. What sealed the decision was my chance meeting with the special's crew, who, when asked, advised me that (1) we would be at least 15 minutes late out of Stillwell due to some problem, (2) we would most likely not cover the entire itinerary due to the late hour, and (3) we probably wouldn't get back to Manhattan before 6 PM. Again, with a 1-hour NJT train trip and at least 1-hour drive ahead of me (on a Sunday night during the summer, with threatening weather), knowing that the crowds at Penn would only get larger and uglier (from experience), I decided to bag it.
Interestingly, I read in other posts that there were problems on the Brighton. I took the D, leaving Stillwell at about 3:50, and experienced no delays along the line. Trains seemed to be moving normal in the other direction also. The only confusion was once we hit W 4 when the notices and announcements were made on the curtailed F service (and riders merely piled onto the D but didn't pile off at 34 as the announcements kept advising as we continued up 6 Ave from W 4).
I would have very much liked to stay and complete the ride on the special but who knows how long it would have taken etc. As it turned out, I arrived home about 7:30 after catching the 5:03 express to Trenton, the only delay being a 20-minute wait at the NJ Turnpike tollbooths at the Pa Tpk extension. An hour after I got home, the skies opened up and it was ugly, so I'm glad I missed that.
As noted, I felt the trip was a good one, but I hope in the future those of us who are making, literally, a day of it can get a little more consideration. I know I wasn't the only Phila person in the mix.
One more thing - I would have very much liked to go onto the Jamaica line, as the flyer noted. I realize that itineraries are subject to change, GO's, etc, but once again a trip touts the Jamaica line and then doesn't go there. It would be useful to cover the BMT Eastern Division on a trip in the future - perhaps when the R-40 slants are ready for retirement (this should be soon?).
Yep, in 7 years will have a farewell to the St. Louis Car non-opto trains fantrip. The R-38s, R-40s, and R-42s will all get the heave-ho (along with the R-32 GEs).
Maybe that trip will have open restrooms at Stillwell. Despite the assurances that this would indeed happen, it (once again!) didn't, forcing many of us to head for the 'one horse' stall at Nathan's.
Surprisingly, the restroom at 57/7 was open, although a vagrant had stumbled into the stall and left the sink faucet running when I stopped there just before the trip got underway.
The trip arrived late into Stillwell. The cleaner had no way of knowing when the train would show up.
I'll buy that but it's happened on several fan trips before. Of course, they've usually been late getting to Stillwell also... And, in the past, the trips usually operated in the fall when ridership to Coney was less than it was last Sunday.
BUT ... I've been to that station on a regular week-day evening & found the rest room OPEN.
Mr t__:^)
Nice collection of photos Harry, thanks for posting !
Mr t__:^)
I've been putting up photos on this site today as well, take a look at the images by date list to find them...
-dave
You sure have been busy !
The two I like the best are of116-14 showing crewman between cars,
and of116-interior as you can see not just the shell cam from a Mack bus.
Very nice Dave, thanks for pointing me to them ! I had a enjoyable weekend in New Haven but these photos make me feel like I was in BOTH places ... isn't life great ?
Mr t
Thanks for the pictures David. Perhaps one day I will be able to come over for a fan trip. Exceslent quality.
Simon
Swindon UK
GREAT pictures. Kudos to both Dave and Harry, Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
A few typos in your captions/filenames:
9374 is an R-36
R-32 3274 is 3724
Great photos, especially the one with the train next to the slants at Stillwell.
1 more: R46 #5628 is not at Ditmas Av., that's in Jamaica Yard.
Those R-32s sure look great, don't they? Of course, they'd look even better with blue doors. Hey, Fred, check out the side route signs: N/Astoria-B'way-Sea Beach.
Lots of 60s photos. You gotta like that! That shot from the Smith-9th St. station of the railfan train made me think, "Hello, Redbirds".
What do you mean 60's Photos?
-Dave
I noticed that many of the IRT photos are dated from the 1960s. Specifically, brand spanking new R-33s fresh from the factory, among others. I liked them in any case.
Oh! I thought you were referring to the "new" new photos some how. Yes, I've been going thru my collection and scanning (rescanning in some cases) them in from old slides. I did all of my IRT R-types and Low-V's already. I still have to handle the IND/BMT cars...
-Dave
You have more 1960s IND/BMT photos? I can't wait!
The special train today was delayed due to signal faliue due to a "track circuit problem."
What exactly is a track circuit problem and if I am at the rail fan window how would I recognize such a problem both at a regular signal and at a homeball.
I'm quite sure that others can give a more complete answer but in essence a 'track circuit' problem is simply that. Each signal works to control its own block. It takes information from the signal rail within that block and sets the signal aspect accordingly. Modifying this are conditions of the succeeding blocks. If the signal rail or the supporting relay tell the signal that the block is occupied when it is not, the signal will display a red aspect with other no train visible. In addition, the succeeding signal, if visible will be green. That's a pretty good indication that you have a track circuit failure. In the case of a home signal, the tower operator would not be able to 'clear' the signal or get a switch to throw.
The tower would be able to issue a call-on for a track circuit
failure in advance of the homeball. For any type of signal,
automatic or interlocking, a dropped out track circuit will
produce 2 red signals in advance of the trouble, just as if there
were a train in that block.
I believe, to address the original poster, that the basic principle
of a track circuit is discussed in the signals section of nycsubway.org so I won't duplicate it here and now.
Funny, all of the time I see scenarios in which a signal is red and the following one is green, but I presume this is supposed to be because the signal that is red is either a home (double headed) signal or a single headed signal that has a spot that says T or S.
If anyone knows that I am wrong, please correct me, but I believe, on both the Market Frankford and Broad Street lines, T means timed to a schedule (the signal will not let a train leave before its scheduled departure) and S means there is a speed sensor (the signal will stay red until it detects the train coming by, and coming by only below a certain speed).
Was the observation car operating as the front of the excursion train at any given time?
-Stef
Yes, from 57th/7th to 34th (and presumably from Corona Yd), from CI yard to Stillwell Av (light), from 36-38st yard to 9ave, and from Bedford-Nostrand to a stub track. Damn, those lights are BRIGHT!
It was; it left the center track of Bedford-Nostrand, Coney Island Yard (light), and 36th St. Yard in the front.
Leaving 57/7 the first time, too, which I see Henry beat me in saying.
Did you or didn't you? Let me know.
Hey guys, take it to email okay? No cryptic personal conversations on the board please.
Gotcha Dave, I had just misplaced Bob's E-Mail. Got it now.
Did you or didn't you? Let me know.
i don't know if he did or didn't... but i do know that you did..... post the same message twice...
heypaul: My mistake. You caught me red-handed.
fred you said that i caught you red-handed... that is a damaging admission for someone with conservative leanings...
Sorry guys, I got carried away... (To Creedmoor!)
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Your showing your age, Doug (Dick Tracy calling Joe Jitzu!)
Yeah, Bob, I really gotta cut out these cult-60's references!!
BTW, do you know why those Dick Tracy cartoons resorted to those wacky characters of Go-Go Gomez and Joe Jitsu that were never in the original strips? The reason was that Chester Gould only gave the animated series the rights to Tracy, and two villians, Flaptop and The Brow, I believe. So, the series producers had to resort to some original characters that were funny enough so that it would keep the program "light" and not serious and intense as the actual strip was intended. That way the show was able to appeal to the kiddie crowd.
Doug aka BMTman
[The Brow]
Was that "Wunbrow", the guy that had one eyebrow across his whole forehead (like my son)?
That's Flattop; remember Prune_Face, and Mumbles?
I'm starting to get flashbacks of Officer Joe Bolton, and when that happens, everybody should take cover immediately!
wayne
Fireman Todd Russell
Officer Joe Bolton
Chuck MacCann /Paul Ashley puppets
Where are they now?
Chuck McCann went out to California in the 1970s and appeared in a number of TV shows and movies, as well as earning lasting fame among baby boomers nationwide as the guy on the other side of the mirror in the Right Guard ads.
Officer Joe Bolton died serveral years ago, as did Captain Jack McCarthy and the Merrie Mailman, Ray Heatherton (who earned the gratitude of baby boomers nationwide by being Joey Heatherton's dad, BTW). I'm not sure about Fireman Todd Russell or Paul Ashley.
[I'm starting to get flashbacks of Officer Joe Bolton, and when that happens, everybody should take cover immediately!]
E-gads! Oh, NO! Not another Officer Joe Bolton Flashback! Wayne, I'm packing my bags as I type this!!
;-)
To Building 40, we hope... 8o>
wayne
I thought that this was a no no note from Slow Beach Fred to Myself, not about Dick Tracy
This is a revised proposal for 2 Avenue subway stations in Manhattan only for now.
(X) 125 Street - Triborough Bridge (2 Avenue)
(L) 116 Street (2 Avenue)
(L) 110 Street (2 Avenue)
(L) 103 Street (2 Avenue)
(X) 96 Street (2 Avenue)
(L) 86 Street (2 Avenue)
(L) 79 Street (2 Avenue)
(L) 72 Street (2 Avenue)
(X) 60 Street - Queensboro Bridge (2 Avenue) Transfers - 4, 5, 6, N, R, & possibly Lexington Av on the 63 Street line
(L) 51 Street (2 Avenue)
(X) 42 Street - United Nations (2 Avenue) Transfers - 7 (maybe a 1 Av station?)
(L) 34 Street (2 Avenue)
(L) 23 Street (2 Avenue)
(X) 14 Street (2 Avenue) Transfers - L (3 Av)
(L) Houston Street - Bowery, Transfers - F (2 Av station)
(L) Delancy Street (Bowery) Transfers - J, M, Z
(L) Canal Street (Bowery)
(X) Brooklyn Bridge (Pearl St)
(L) Wall Street (Pearl St)
(X) Whitehall Street - Battery Park, Transfers - N & R
(X) - Express Stop, (L) - Local Stop.
Brooklyn, Queens, & the Bronx will be figured out later, Any apprasials, criticism? Death threats are also welcome, lol :)
Canal Street at the Bowery is a mess for pedestrians due to the Manhattan Bridge portal -- I'd move the stop to Chatham Square, make it an express and put two local stops between there and Whitehall -- Fulton Street-Seaport (with Fulton at the south end of the station and an exit at the north end of the station closer to the Brooklyn Bridge) and Wall Street.
Isn't 60th St too far away from 59th/Lex for a transfer? I'd also space the stations from 86th to 51st more like the Lex for a practical reason: it gives more distance for the junction between the 63rd St and the 2nd Ave lines. I would then make 68th Street an express stop. 51st St., I'd see if I could link it with the E and F because the block between 2nd and 3rd Ave is shorter than usual. For the same reason I would link the 7 station at GCT with the 2nd Ave line because the 7 station "leans" toward 3rd Ave (the exit at the eastern end of the platform is very close to 3rd Ave). I'd try to keep it away from the Bowery (nothing there), just go to Houston, Grand (B, D, Q), Chatham Sq, Fulton-Pine (instead of Pine-Wall), then Whitehall. Also I'd make everything from Houston to Whitehall express stops and eliminate the express stops at 96th and 14th (OK, maybe not 14th) for a faster run.
I'd make 86th the express stop not 96th, 86th is a much busier station
Its busier because its an express stop. If people are equidistant from a local or express stop, which one will they walk to? I know some people who are a few blocks closer to 67th ave station but walk to 71/Continental anyway because it is an express stop.
What? No transfer to the 1 at SF? The entrances for the 1 and N/R stations are literally across the street from each other!
Really? Why isn't there a transfer between the N/R and 1/9 then?
Because it's pretty pointless... look at it this way:
If you're coming from Brooklyn, you can transfer between the N/R and 2/3 at Atlantic/Pacific or Borough Hall. This will get you to any stops along the IRT north of Chambers or anywhere on the Broadway line. If your destination is anything south of Chambers (Cortlandt, Rector, Whitehall on the N/R or Cortlandt, Rector, South Ferry on the 1) why not just walk the extra half block?
If you're heading TO Brooklyn, same thing. Take the IRT or BMT and transfer at Times Square, Borough Hall, or Atlantic/Pacific.
Only railfans would want to come down the IRT and go back up the BMT, or vice versa, in Manhattan...
There was an article in the NY Times today about the lack of detail regarding what the $$ will be spent on should the Transportation Bond Act pass. What we will probably end up with will be the MTA-endorsed local-service only segment from 125th Street to 63rd Street, connecting with the unused platforms at 63rd & Lex. Given that, I sure hope they design the stops with the addition of future express service in mind. In other words, make the stations wide enough for 2 more tracks, even if the $$ does not exist now to implement the service. I would hate to see the line hemmed-in, should the $$ ever be obtained for a more fully realized 2nd Avenue Subway.
What I was hoping for was this:
Every stop double decked, local on top, express on bottom. Every stop has an upper and lower platform, so should a G.O. be necessary involving the local tracks, they'll open up the lower platform and use it. Also, what stops are express stops could be changed on a whim. This is also more efficient than doing the same with everything on one level (every stop 4 tracks and 2 island plats) since an entire platform could be closed, so the trains don't have to slow to 15 MPH and honk while going by.
Waste of money building two levels (it's cheaper to build wider than to dig deeper and build the extra deck).
Expenses of constructing another platform, it's not just pouring some concrete between the tracks.
Some people want an express train to stop at their station but what can they do? Nobody can ask to have a local station converted to an express in most cases and be taken seriously. Imagine if those platforms where there. Eventually there would just be four local tracks.
The 2nd Ave. line is supposed to be only a 2-track line with a limited amount of stations most of which will be far apart. This was supposed to be a cost-cutting measure and to offer a substitute for
express service.
Personally, I thing the T.A.'s thinking is wrong. The traditional
express-local arrangement would be better suited for a main north-south line especially if extensions are going to be added later.
Traditional express-local service allows for more stations to serve more people, more trains per hour, and an alternate track in case of a breakdown.
A good compromise would be a 3-track arrangement with a reversible
center track-- express downtown in the morning and uptown in the evening.
08/28/2000
What about:
1) Whitehall St ? you mean that 3 track station as a southern terminus?
2) Grand St ? It has been discussed here that this station has a false wall and the outer tracks were to be for the 2nd Ave. line.
3) Chambers St (J)(M)(Z)? Someone discussed here using the seldom used tracks as a southern terminus.
Bill "Newkirk"
Unlike Lexington Avenue/63rd Street, the Grand Street walls are real, digging would need to be done to widen the station. The tunnel to the north and south is briefly four tracked, however.
Using Chambers Street as a terminal is not a good idea, it would prevent access to the Financial District. If anything were to happen, Chambers Street should be used as a terminal, but only if the same number of trains use the Pearl/Water line. M15 anyone?
I had read about "subway surfing" in a newspaper. I would like to know how can the "surfers" climb up onto the top of the train? Are they climb it on the elevated or ground station? Is it dangerous in the tunnel(especially in IRT where the clearence is pretty low)?
Also using overhead wires to supply electricity for the train can stop people surfing on the top of the train(well, it depends). How is the MTA solve this problem?
No, overhead power supply didn't prevent SEPTA/AMTRAK from getting sued (and lost) after some idiots climbed on top of a boxcar and fried themselves. They had to fence in all electrified areas with stagnant equipment.
Plus, you get the usual idiot who tries to steal a cable and can't tell the difference between live and dead ones, as what happened on MNRR a while back.
>>> I had read about "subway surfing" in a newspaper <<<
What newspaper was this? And what defines "subway surfing"? If it is standing on the roof of a moving subway car, it would be impossible in the tunnels because of the lack of headroom. If done on elevated lines in the daytime, it would be immediately noticed by the general public and tower operators. If it has ever been done (and just about everything has been done at least once in the NY subways) it must be exceedingly rare.
Tom
No, Tom, it is ,unfortunately, not that rare, the article appeared in the Village Voice a few weeks ago. Real idiots. (my handle not withstanding)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> the article appeared in the Village Voice a few weeks ago <<<
Andee;
O.K. What did the article say? How often does this occur, and how do the surfers avoid detection? Is this something that is only done at night?
Tom
I'll do even better than that, here's the article
SUBWAY SURFING ARTICLE
Peace,
ANDEE
I read the article. I know they do this in third world countries to get a free ride, but for fun ? What is bombing ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Bombing is spray painting grafitti, I beleive.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's interesting. I heard that there's actually a law that prohibits riding on top of a train, which the article failed to mention, but I didn't know people actually did that.
Yeah, well there's also laws against letting your dog poop on the sidewalks, or spitting in public places, but these aren't enforced either.
Doug aka BMTman
Stupidy personified. Why is hell would anyone partake in such lunacy. Do they have a death wish. Some of our youth today are way overboard. I hope the pendulum starts to swing back the other way and real soon.
C'mon! You certainly sound like an old fart! I bet you're over 60. Kids of your generation played "chicken" in hot rods and look how you turned out. There are lots of good youth today, many of them on the Redbird fantrip yesterday.
Bob
Good point, Chuchu (uh, can I call you chuchu for short?).
BTW, Fred would be interested to know that MOST of all this subwaysufing business has occurred on his beloved Sea Beach Line! Because it is mostly a cut, this allows for kids to alit onto the roofs of trains as they are waiting in the stations.
Doug aka BMTman
You can call me anything you want, Doug. I remember hearing the old fogies complaining about the younger generation going to hell when I was young. It's human nature.
Bob
08/28/2000
[I remember hearing the old fogies complaining about the younger generation going to hell when I was young. It's human nature.]
I hope it isn't human nature to stand on the roof of a moving subway car and slam into a concrete overpass. The sheer lunacy is when the idiots family descibes him as a really good boy and then turns around and sues the TA because the TA failed to prevent him from subway surfing !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I read the article in the Village Voice. This is the wildest thing I've heard of in a long time.we've gone through many different trends over the decades but this one has to take the cake.
It must really be a high if it's done the right and safe way.Something I would not mind trying out if I was with someone credible whom I could trust.The adrenaline rush must be out of this world.Maybe Disney could come up with A virtual reality train for us to ride ontop of so no-one would die from this new trend.
Has anybody here on Subtalk tried this?
It's funny how this new trend is somehow tied in with the graffiti movement.
Subway surfing has popped up on the board on and off since the start of the year, and usually when somebody (or some bodies) turn up dead after surfing themselves into an underpass wall or a ceiling on one of the lines.
The closest I ever came (or ever desire to come) was riding standing up without holding on to a pole or bar. I've never even witnessed this, though I often see kids hanging onto the side while the train leaves when they're too lazy to walk to the exit.
[Has anybody here on Subtalk tried this?]
Perhaps, marty, but I doubt they are around now to talk about it.
When you subway surf it is quite easy to 'lose your heard' over the sport.
Doug aka BMTman
Two teenage "jerks" did this about ten years ago on the elevated portion of the # 6 line. As the train was pulling into Castle Hill Ave.,one of the boys decided to climb up a little higher to see where they were. His head hit the roof of the station. Sorry to say,he was decappitated.
If you are interested in surfing, might I suggest doing it at a beach somewhere?
"Surfing" the roof of a subway train is highly dangerous and is a great way to lose your head -- literally.
On a related note, I took a great picture -- while on my way to the Redbird Trip -- of two guys with surfboards waiting at Jay Street for the A train to Far Rockaway. Now that's surfing the smart & traditional way...
Doug aka BMTman
I'm sorry, but I'm just interest about these idiots only.
STATIONS TO BE FIXED
Peace,
ANDEE
Good thing. Those stations look terrible! And this is a part of Queens which is not serves by the subway, so they really depend on the LIRR.
Andrew
Got your interest ... bet you wonder what in the World this could be about ?
Three non-railfan friends & I did our annual AA/AAA baseball game this past weekend. This year it was the New Haven Ravens (Seattle Sea Hark's farm team). For $15 we were in the 3rd row behind home plate (get the bleechers for that at the House That Ruth Built). Anyhow the kind of floor they put in lends itself to fan stomping a-n-d it sure sounded like a set of IND R-9 were rumbling by every time they did.
Sat. we do a tourist thing, this year it was Shoreline at Branford. As luck would have it I volunteered to put a car away that had just finished it's birthday party duty ... so my friends & I had the car all to ourselves ... ding ding.
Mr t__:^)
I've just started reading Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, one of those books which I always meant to read but, until now, never actually got around to reading. It essentially is the foundation of modern economics and surely one of the most influential books ever written. On the very first page, right in the Introduction, is a line that speaks volumes about NYC's present economic malaise - never mind the fact that it was written 230 years ago.
Smith writes:
[a nation's prosperity must] be regulated by two different circumstances; first, by the skill, dexterity and judgment with which its labor is generally applied; and, secondly, by the proportion between the number of those who are employed in useful labor, and that of those who are not so employed ... the abundance or scantiness of its annual supply must, in that particular situation, depend upon those two circumstances.
What we have here is a basic quality and quantity situation. You want prosperity, you'd better have a skilled, productive labor force and a reasonably high labor-force participation rate. While Smith was writing about nations, I don't see any necessary reason why his theory cannot be applied on a smaller, municipal scale - remember that he was writing at a time when the city-state was a reality.
NYC doesn't come out too well under Smith's analysis. Its labor force probably is of fairly high quality, as compared to the rest of the country, but unfortunately the "quantity" issue is another story entirely. There are ample statistics showing that NYC's labor-force participation rate - the percentage of the population that's either working or actively looking for work - is way below the nationwide level and in fact lags that of other large cities. Far too many New Yorkers avoid having to work through various "conforming nonconformist" means; they include people on welfare, those making fraudulent disability claims, former public-sector workers (including many former transit workers, alas) who take advantage of cushy union contracts to retire while still young and vigorous, and many people who simply fall out of sight into the underground economy.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if eighteenth-century theories are necessarily determinative today. But it's as clear as a bell that something is holding New York back economically, as the Sunbelt whizzes past, and my guess is that Adam Smith was close to the mark.
I think much of the story is something that has been a part of NYC life since the first immigration from Ireland in about 1850, roughly.Followed by Italians, Poles, Puerto Ricans, etc over the years. Butte Montana was quite an immigrant mix once too, basically in either case it was just plain demand for labor, hard labor at that with a lot of risk that attracted these people most of whom had little education and couldn't make a living where they came from.
NYCity still gets a lot of immigrants, I guess Russia is the latest.The old heavy duty jobs are now unionized, and the big money is in professions and money-changers, execs etc. So I'd guess there isn't much to offer the new arrivals or those who have stayed at the lower levels, other than minimum wage jobs or bare subsistence.
In the case of the sunbelt I'd say most of their growth is in big city people who fled there to avoid winter and enjoy the opportunities that were created by aggressive governments who attracted the businesses and the people who moved in had skills or education that was in demand.
North Dakota and Montana as examples have had new people move in [Montana moreso] the majority American born Caucasian, but the jobs that have been created, except for the growth of professions, basically stink. Low taxes but little opportunity to make good money.And being cold winter states I doubt if it will ever see what the sunbelt has seen.
Admittedly places like NYC with the high taxes have killed the sunbelt type opportunities, but the change I've seen since I left in 1977 has been a big improvement. One poster quoted about a quarter million on welfare in NYC. It was once over a million. I've gone the long way around the block but I don't think its as bleak as it looks.
NYC right now is doing well relative to it's own recent history as a city in decline. Immigrants may be increasing our population but at the same time more affluent New Yorkers are still moving out of the city. That doesn't bode well for the city in the next economic downturn. Where is the money going to come from to educate their children? And do we really have a middle-class here anymore or just a very large lower middle class? The future of NYC depends on the policies of the next mayor. It also depends on many thing out of the next mayor's control like the price of energy, the future of exchange-based stock trading and the agressiveness of neighboring states in attracting business. Certain politicians got free publicity this year from bashing Con Ed and the PSC over electricity deregulation. But guess what? Many neighborhoods in NYC don't want even a small generating faciltity near them. So we are looking at a crisis over the next few years and beyond if nothing is built, then who will the politicians blame. No one realizes yet how critical this issue is.
NYC right now is doing well relative to it's own recent history as a city in decline. Immigrants may be increasing our population but at the same time more affluent New Yorkers are still moving out of the city. That doesn't bode well for the city in the next economic downturn. Where is the money going to come from to educate their children? And do we really have a middle-class here anymore or just a very large lower middle class? The future of NYC depends on the policies of the next mayor. It also depends on many thing out of the next mayor's control like the price of energy, the future of exchange-based stock trading and the agressiveness of neighboring states in attracting business.
And don't forget education. There is at least anecdotal evidence that poor schools are the main reason why middle- and upper-class people are moving out of the city. It's no longer the lure of the suburban lifestyle, as people who want that already have left. But there are many affluent young people who like the urban lifestyle perfectly well, but end up leaving once they have children because they just can't take the thought of city schools.
But there are many affluent young people who like the urban lifestyle perfectly well, but end up leaving once they have children because they just can't take the thought of city schools.
Interesting you should mention that, Peter. My younger daughter, who is just starting her first year of law school at Georgetown (Washington, D.C.) plans to practice and live in New York. She absolutely loves the City. But she has already said that once she gets to the point in her life when she has children she plans to move out, either to Connecticut or back to New Jersey, because of the schools.
My older daughter and her husband made essentially the same type of decision recently. Before they were married, they lived in L.A.; just before their wedding they moved to Las Vegas; now that they have two children they have moved to Kingman, Arizona, because they have decided that an urban environment is no place to raise children if you've got the choice. And in their case the schools have nothing to do with it, since they are planning to home school the boys.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The future of NYC depends on the policies of the next mayor. It also depends on many thing out of the next mayor's control like the price of energy, the future of exchange-based stock trading and the agressiveness of neighboring states in attracting business.
Just another thought. Of those three factors, I would say that only the last one is as significant as might be imagined. Energy is something that can work in the city's favor as the urban lifestyle is inherently more energy-efficient than its suburban counterpart. If gasoline shoots up to $2.50 per gallon, we'll really appreciate good transit :-) As far as stock trading is concerned, the reality is that the whole financial-services industry, even counting the multiplier effect, accounts for a much lower share of city employment than often realized. If the NYSE shut down for good in favor of NASDAQ-style trading (which I would say is extremely unlikely), the resulting damage to the city's economy wouldn't be too terrible.
High energy prices will damage the entire US economy, which will hurt NYC by making an expensive place even more expensive. Think huge electric bills which will make NJ's and CT's less expensive (less taxed) energy more attractive. And if energy prices go up the transit fares will have to go up. They're using energy just like any other part of the economy. The NYSE question is the big if. What will the brokerage houses do? Will they follow NYSE's lead? The technology is evolving and the NYSE isn't talking too much about that new exchange building on Broad Street. As far as I know the NYSE hasn't committed itself to anything yet.
Thanks for the informative reply. A lot is true,; as the the pol's with their bashing they ought to clean their own house first. Mr. Rosa's thoughts on the schools are also of value but I'd have to add that that cancer and the lack of any values in too many youth are a cancer in too many places and not only the cities. No doubt you're right about a crisis in the making, let's hope it doesn't transpire because a lot of other places feel New York's problems. Best wishes, ed
Could somebody explain to me why the R10 & R30 subway cars ended their service life on the "A" & "C" lines why they couldn't run on other lines after retireing?
Could somebody explain to me why the R10 & R30 subway cars ended their service life on the "A" & "C" lines why they couldn't run on other lines after retireing?
Dunno about the R-10's, but the R-30's are a fairly sad story. TA management made a big mistake in scrapping these cars before their time. According to the official line, the R-30's (and the closely related R-27's) were obsolete because they lacked air-conditioning, and retrofitting them wouldn't be cost effective. Maybe so, but surely the cars could have been used during cool weather, like the un-airconditioned Redbirds on the 7.
Ridership was declining at the time, and the TA felt they could get by without the R-30s. Big mistake, no question. Installing A/C would have increased their weight to BMT standard-like proportions.
The R-10s spent most of their careers on the A, and that's the route they will forever be associated with. The slant R-40s took over on the A in October of 1977, and from then until their retirement, the R-10s saw service on just about every other IND route at one time or another. The last 110 units ended their careers on the C
Installing a/c on the R27/30 would have brought their weight to roughly R1-9 weight. IIRC they weighed about 80,000 lbs and a/c added 2-2 1/2 tons. The R1-9's at plus or mnus 84,000 lbs, the AB's about 95,000.
Let's not forget that what we generally refer to as the "R30" series also included the "R27" (not really sure why there were two separate series, or maybe 3 since some were "R30A", since they came in a single series from St. Louis Car in 1960-61, but so be it).
In October, 1960, I was a sophomore at Stuyvesant HS (in those days on 15th St near First Ave), commuting from home in the Sheepshead Bay section of Brooklyn via the Brighton line (Neck Rd was my home station). One day I was returning home from school, riding a Brighton Express (Triplexes) as we passed the local around Cortelyou Rd, and much to my surprise, it was not a train of Standards, but a shiny new train of R-types. This was on the day that the first R27s entered service. I got off to change for the local at Newkirk Ave. instead of continuing on the express to Kings Hwy. so I could have a longer ride on this new beast.
I got in, expecting to see something that looked like the R16s already operating on the Jamaica (15) line. However, I was very surprised by:
- All longitudinal seating (like on the IRT)
- Hard fibreglass seats rather than vinyl-on-foam.
- Very strange route signs "QT - Bway Brgtn Local via Tunnel" with the word "via" in tiny letters diagonally. (I had expected to see a No. 1 - didn't know they were converting the BMT to letters).
Another interesting note - on that first day most of the space for the advertising placards was empty - I guess they hadn't been installed yet.
-- Ed Sachs
I'll bet you weren't the only person who was wondering, "What's a QT?". At least the R-27s and R-30s kept the old titles on their signs.
I'll add that even though I didn't like them (or any SMEE's when they were new) because I knew that was the beginning of the end of more of the old equipment, I'd like to say the R27/30/30a turned out to be a good piece of equipment, a lot like the present IRT redbirds. I enjoyed running them and even though they also had their run down years in the late 60's they were durable.
What year did they lose the cast iron brake shoes?
I don't really know, but I'm positive they still had them when I left in 1977. The only cars at that time with composition shoes were the R44/46 and perhaps a set of test SMEE's with them,IIRC on the IRT. There was a set of 4 R1 or R4 cars that had composition back in the late 60's.
My guess would be if indeed they were converted [R27/30] to composition it would have been around the time of the GOH programs but I won't say that's a fact. I preferred the cast iron shoes.
I heard the A/C units used on the R-32s increased their weight by 5 tons. You're probably right, though.
So why was A/C never installed on the R27/30s? They sure need them now at least on the Eastern Division.
The added weight supposedly would have been too much for the cars, though a suppose running them on the C or E lines, which never go aboveground, would have negated any fears of having a nice eight-car ACed R-27/30 train fall through the tracks and onto Jamaica Ave.
So putting them on the J, M or Z lines would have been out of the question anyway. R32s could have been sent to the J, M and Z while the refurbished R27/30 could have gone to the C or E, possibly the G or L which do not use weak el structures. I can only wonder how well the Jamaica Av and Broadway Brooklyn els will be able to stand up to weight of brand-new, non-articulated TA cars.
It all depends on how adding A/C would have affected axle weight, and then it would have been a question of whether or not the elevated stretch along Fulton St. could support such an added weight. The BMT standards could and did run on the Jamaica line for years, as heavy as they were. Only the Triplexes were banned because they were too heavy for the Fulton St. portion.
I believe it was the structural integrity of the R27/30 cars themselves which made the installation of AC units prohibitive, not their weight on elevated structures. Hell, even with the AC units their weight would'nt have exceed that of a Standard, which ran on the Eastern Division for 50 years.
It would be interesting to know what the sturcture problems would have been, since outside of the carbon steel bodies, the R-30s weren't a heck of a lot different from the R-38s, which did have their final 10 cars ACed (and I'd assume a 1990 retrofit unit would have weighed in at no more, and probably less, than the ones put in 4140-4149 in 1966).
I believe that the structure design of the R27/R30 cars was not sound enough to bear the weight of additional AC units.
Because when a car "retires", it no longer runs in service. The C line was the last stop for both the R10 and R30. I guess the C is the last stop to the scrapheap. Lets put all R38's on it....hehehehe
Don't forget - at one time, the C was a rush hour-only route, and it was common practice to trot out the oldest equipment during rush hours. Of course, by the time both car classes were retired, the C was an all-day service.
How do the announcements on the subway work?I don't see wires running between cars, so I guess it works by some kind of radio.
But if they use a radio how do they keep nearby trains from interfering with eachother?
It is not RF. It is hard wired thru the same wiring harness that controls the doors, etc. Someone else may be able to provide more detailed info.
Peace,
ANDEE
all the wire run under the coupler, the PA door, light and AC control, plus brake, adn moter controls
Under the mechanical coupler is a device called the electric portion. It has a number of electric contacts (most typically 52 on NYCT equipment). When the cars couple mechanically, the electric portions advance and make contact with the facing car completing many circuits including the PA. You don't see the pins on the open end because there is a cover that protects the pins until the cars are coupled.
Hey Steve, does this cover automatically open when the couplers are coupled together?
Yes it does. If you look at the Electric Portion, on the right hand side, you'll see a large steel pin. When this is pushed by the opposing coupler face, the door opens (downward)
Couldn't resist cluttering up the board with this bit 'o news. I celebrated my 41st year on earth by taking off and thinking I would go to the beach. Guess I would have been better off working.
To my knowledge, August 28 is the only date on which TWO fatal subway accidents occurred- not a very pleasant association. On August 28, 1973, part of the tunnel fell on the front of a Flushing-bound rush hour '7' train at the 1st Avenue crossover, killing the man at the railfan window. As it was my 14th birthday, and I was in that brief goof-off cusp between the end of camp and the beginning of ninth grade, I wasn't old enough to be delayed coming home from work yet. Several neighbors on my block in Whitestone were.
Of course, August 28, 1991 will live in infamy as the date of the Union Square crash. It occurred very early in the morning, if I remember, because we were drinking in a bar (on vacation- I NEVER work on my birthday) when I glanced up at the TV in time to see Carson get interrupted by Chuck Scarborough or someone standing in front of a graphic of a subway car and the caption 'SUBWAY DERAILMENT'. As soon as I got in the car and turned on the radio, WINS reported 'many fatalities'. In all the confusion, the death toll must have looked like more than the five that were ultimately reported.
For what it's worth, if my son had been born an hour and twenty minutes earlier, he would have been born the the 91st birthday of the subway system. If he had held on another 22:40- sorry, wife- it would have been the 6th anniversary of the 63rd Street tunnel opening.
As a consolation, I tell him he was born the day the Braves won their only World Series.
[As a consolation, I tell him he was born the day the Braves won their only World Series.]
Not quite! The Milwaukee Braves won the 1957 World Series behind the pitching of Lew Burdette.
Anyway, Happy Bithday Howard!!
Happy Birthday, Howard !
I was in Calabria, Italy, when the 4 train crashed. They interrupted a nice nude soap opera to announce it. Amazing how fast our bad news travels.
JDL
I was in Calabria, Italy, when the 4 train crashed. They interrupted a nice nude soap opera to announce it. Amazing how fast our bad news travels.
It's even more amazing how Italian TV is different from ours!
I noticed that in a few European countries I visited.
Germany for one, and yes, Italy and perhaps Spain. But what they don't show in this country is more than made up by implications.Gad, interrupting such a show for a train crash? Probably at the worst time too. Hope it wasn't as bad as Watergate and the Simpson trial!
Is it concievable for the TA to extend the "atsoria", New Lots Ave" or
other EL (steel) structures? IE, "astoria line" to La Gaurdia Airport.
The ELS should be presereved, they are great work of engineering. They have lasted this long and should continue. By the way, I am from
the New York City area, lived on "lavonia ave." (IRT & Lo-V FAN)when I was child, 1957 to 1958 where lived in "east new york" section of Brooklyn and other parts of the city.
Technically speaking, it would be possible to extend existing els using the box-girder technique. Would NYCT do it? Not sure. The only new El I can think of is where they hooked the Jamaica El to the Archer Avenue subway. The roadbed is concrete deck with Y-shaped concrete piers supporting it. It would be nice if they did utilize the box-girder technique in extending the "N" to LGA. As for New Lots avenue, that extension would likely be embankment with trestles over the cross streets.
wayne
Extending the N to LGA has been proposed many times, but there is a lot of NIMBY (not in my back yard) in the Astoria area over new El construction. New Box girders are also very expensive to build, actually more expensive than concrete construction because of all the seismic testing that must go on. It sucks but it's true. I personally love steel Els, the sounds they make when the trains roll by as opposed to concrete which is more noise absorbent. I grew up in Chicago and their new Midway line is almost all concrete. It's just not the same as the oldies. But I guess that is the underlying truth opf everything - they just don't make 'em like they used to.
No, they obviously make them better. If it is cheaper, stronger (from your text it can be surmised that they have better earthquake proofing) and they make less noise. That's a win on three counts.
If nothing else Chicago DID get new lines which is something NYC is dcades behind on. No matter what construction a Line to LAG [and JFK] would be nice, and needed. Likewise Coop city, etc etc. OTOH I am grateful even if from 2000 miles away that there are still many steel els in NYC and Chicago. If extensions are more modern all well and good, be glad to have them.
yes a few NEW lines - Co-op city should be an extension of the existing 6 - only the 6 would operate like the D does in the bronx with the 6 being a local from PBP to City Hall and then a new line running express in the peak direction from co-op city to wherever - this is assuming that space is freed up in the Lex tubes by converting the 4 to B division specs and hooking it into the 2nd Ave. subway.
Extending the 2 south along NOstrand would be nice, it'd be a slow-ass trip (no express, close stations) but it'd still be nice.
A third and probably much more hairbrained line would be to extend the Rockaway Park line west along the Rockaways, then into a new tunnel to Sheepshead bay or Brighton Beach - under this all A trains would go to far Rockaway and all Q trains would go to Broad Channel via Rockaway Park.
Extending the N to Laguardia would be nice.
Extending the G on a new subway from Court Sq. up to the Triboro Bridge area and then under 125th St, with stops interchanging with all the lines there - this would also make it so Gs didn't compete with other trains for trackage (I am assuming the F would run express to Church).
Extending the F in Queens to the Nassau County Line.
Extending the A (converted to a C with all As going to Far Rockaway) from New Lots to Jamaica by going east to the freeway and then north in the median.
Extending the 1/9 a little farther north to service the University and come closer to the Westchester line
Rebuilding the 3rd Ave. El
Extending the M north from Metropolitan to interchange with the 7 and Queens Blvd IND
here's something really hairbrained: Whole new Subway line with new tubes and everthing running from 8th Ave Local terminal (WTC) under Wall ST. then under east river then south one block over from the N/R all the way to the Verrazano, across the Verrazano and then in two forks with one fork going to the Ferry Terminal and the other fork going SW (the Staten Island Railway converted to subway use).
[by converting the 4 to B division specs and hooking it into the 2nd Ave. subway.]
I thought the plan was to convert the 6, not the 4.
Extension of the 6 to Co-op City is a fairly short extension and if it's done with the concrete structure, it shouldn't be too expensive. And the Co-op City station could easily be put next to Amtrak's NE Corridor near Erskine Place. But the elevators at Pelham Bay Park station would have to be demolished and new ones would have to be built somewhere else.
They also rebuilt the approaches to the Willie B. IIRC, on the NY side it is concrete construction; but on the Bklyn side it is steel (with a concrete deck?).
Unfortunatly, box girders are a BAD idea for this. The box is hollow, which substantially increases the noise level. And since people who moved in next to the els are bitching about the noise (Today's Daily News, to which I am sure Larry will post) anything that would increase the noise is bad.
-Hank
Yes, the noise is there, BUT the EL's were there FIRST. (I know, lived
at "lavonia ave" in the 50's) When queens and brooklyn were farmland, during the subway expansion, the EL's were built, as populations expanded beyond Manhattan. Yes I am defending these great structures,
they lasted this long and do there job WELL. It is like most railroad
history, first the railroad out west, then came populations, towns grew because of rairoading, just as an example.
It's amazing how people complain about the EL's racket AFTER they move there. HELLO? What did they think it was for, to hang clothes on??
Yes, it seems like people who buy a home for less money because it's in a noisy area (next to a railroad, subway, airport, freeway, etc.) like to complain how the noise reduces their property values.
Well ... Duh ...
You could easlily cover the inside of the box girder with sound-absorbing material with little increase in dead wieght. Plus, the top of the obx girder would be covered, and with type I or II track, not the open type III track typically found on the el's.
They could check out the Market-Frankford el in Philly. I know it is ballasted and a lot quieter and I'm almost sure it's steel trestle. I don't honestly know jthat much about it but the solution might be found there?
The people in my neighborhood would like nothing more than to convert the Astoria Line to a subway. Personally, I like it the way it is, and as long as they reach LGA somehow, el or subway, or down the median of the GCP, I would be happy. Call me a YIMBY (Yes, in my backyard.)
Thank you. I lived near the el for a few years, out west hereI enjoy hearing the trains a block away, only the horns for the crossing are a pain. But indeed the els built the neighborhoods.
If we could get arround the NIMBYs (not likely!) and get the proper funding (We're dreaming here!) I'd love to see the N extended to LaGuardia (as is a proposal now, by the way.)
I'd also love to see the 3 train extended a few short miles to JFK, with two or three Queens stops along the way. That's gotta be a better plan than the "Airtrain", which goes out of its way to AVOID serving local residents.
A problem with the New Lots line being extended is that not that many people who travel to NYC on business or visitors to NYC enjoy riding what is basically a local train for over an hour to the airport. The N Train to LGA isn't that long but it's a heck of a ride out Livonia Avenue then further into JFK. (And since the A train already comes within 3 miles and the Airport is building that other line, that may be enough.) That's why London built the Heathrow Express. People would pay a quite a bit extra for the chance to get into London faster than the 50-minute ride it was on the Piccadilly Line.
And believe me, the Heathrow Express is well worth it especially if you are going TO the airport. The value of the remote check in at Paddington is well worth the £12 fee. I "bought" about three extra hours to ride the Underground that way... :-)
-Dave
Well, what if you made it the 4 train that continues to JFK while the 3 terminates at Utica Ave? Then you'd have kind of an express, like the F where there are local stops at the very end of the line but express for most of the rest of it.
:)Andrew
If nothing else it would be nice to have such a service in addition to the A train; even though as has been remarked there's Brownsville on the New Lots Line and Bed-Stuy on the A. But then that's a matter of personal concern and some people wouldn't worry much about it. Chicago's o 'hare train goes thru some not-that-good areas and there are no problems, or few. But Chicago is a gentler city for the most part.
Simple rail service to the airports might get more cars off the road too for employees, and offer job opportunities for those who at least until they have a better job can't afford a car.Hopefully once they got one they wouldn't give up the train for work.
New York still miles behind most major cities, period.
I have used the Piccadilly to/from Heathrow several times. A rather long (nearly an hour) ride but goes right to the city center. A nice ride too, for much of the way like the Brighton. But would I use the #3 through New Lots or use the A for JFK? Not through Brownsville and Bet-Stuy, thank you. The N to LGA. Yes!
The 3 doesn't run through Bed-Stuy.
I'd love to see the New Lots Ave. line extended into southern Queens. I believe expansion of the 3 and A lines would greatly improve the transit service in this area without adding passangers to the allready overburdened Queens IND.
The 3 train can be extended about 1.5 miles to the expessway, and then down the middle of the expressway, passing north of JFK, and having either a transfer to the Airtrain or a branch to JFK. The line could then continue on to Laurelton and Rosedale. The line would have 4 tracks, thus providing both local and express service, and it would serve an area that currently has no subway service whatsoever.
The line could also run in the median of Conduit Boulevard.
Do you remember the R10 cars tat were too LOUD to ride on the C Train?!
LL Train: I remember the R10 cars was so LOUD & i have to cover my ears. Also i couldn't hear what people saying to me while the R10 rumble LOUD & could get my ears deaf. I CAN"T HEAR YOU HUH? HUH? HUH?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
You think they were loud on the "C" train? Try riding a train of them in full flight along the express stretches of the "A" train! Sheer railfan heaven, with a noise so intense it vibrated the internal organs and made the very bones resonate. Add thereto the nasty buzz of the bracket fans and it made for a rather impressive Subway Symphony in "A" MAJOR!
wayne
The last few trains of R-10s I rode on, on the C, were painfully loud. Must have been flat spots on the wheels.
Back in their heyday on the A, I never thought they were excessively loud, even as they strutted their stuff along that race track of express dashes, CPW. I rode on them many, many times on that stretch, and never had to hold my ears. One concession: most of those rides were during the winter months when the windows and storm doors were closed.
Say what you want, but to me, the R-10s were an immortal fleet.
They were at their worst during the summers of their final years. Fans vibrating, storm doors hooked open, windows open. Going top speed through the Cranberry St. tube would make your ears ring. The R16 was pretty loud, but rarely did it get up enough speed to rival the R10.
I.I.N.M., the R38’s, before G.O.H., were also pretty loud; I remember reading Ed Davis Sr.’s They Moved the Millions describing the noise emanating from the R38 as “the worst of any cars on the system”.
4140-4149 were pretty quiet, but then, they were the only ones you could close the windows on during the summer...
Here I am again, and I'll confirm that statement. They were ear splitters; but OTOH the R10 with windows open were probably as bad. During the winter and closed up the R10's were OK.
I sttod in Coney Island yard a fgew times when a train went by on the Culver el and could always tell an R38 by the racket.
Everything was loud pre-GOH. The loudest I experienced was the flat wheeled R27's that ran on the 6th Ave shuttle in 1986-87.
I remember those trains. Loud, and just totally splattered with graffiti.
These cars, like the R16's, were destined for the scrapheap and were allowed to be run into the ground.
Well, at the southern end of the Southbound 2/3 platform at Fulton there is an interesting signal. It stays red until the train at Wall St leaves, then goes straight to green, while the following signal goes to yellow at the same time. Why is this?
It's one of those situations (probably, I'm guessing here) where the light stays red until the train has left the next few blocks, as opposed to just the next block.
It might be some sort of Home/Interlocked/Controled or Semi-Automatic signal. It won't clear until the train has left the interlocking limits. I've seen the same thing at the 31st St. interlocking on the Eastbound MFL.
There could be a number of reasons for this. I can't picture
the particular stretch of track. When this leaving s/b automatic
is red, how many additional reds are beyond it with the train in
the next station?
As those two stations are quite close it may be set up that way to keep trains spaced and stopped one behind another until the first leaves and the next can enter?
Yes, the stations are rather close. That's probably it.
There are two reds after that signal, possibly 3 (I couldn't see well, the track isn't perfectly straight).
it sends a radio transmission tot he aliens every time a train passes over it.
the frequency of trains on the 2/3 is controlled by the MTA as a means of communication with extraterrestrial life - when they land they will hide in the depths of the subway until the time is right - then rise to the surface and BEWARE!
Fascinating.
Well I'm back from my big trip to Chicago. I don;t have time to give all youse guys the details now, but try to answer this question:
How can a 7 hour, transit filled layover turn into a 2 hour eat and blow?
[How can a 7 hour, transit filled layover turn into a 2 hour eat and blow?]
It's preceeded by a 5-hour late train?
You're forgetting. He took Amtrak. It must have been a 29 hour late train.
Checked NJ Transit's site today and found the news. http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/specpg-5.htm#trytrans
Doesn't this conflict with Bus Fest 2000 of the NYC Transit Museum????
08/29/2000
[Doesn't this conflict with Bus Fest 2000 of the NYC Transit Museum????]
Yes it does, but if you're good, be at Bus Fest before it starts and spend whatever time you need there then head up to Hoboken. I think both can be done in the same day, if anybody does and is successful, let us know.
Bill "Newkirk"
In the R16 thread the idea of current in the motors when coasting came up. We called it dynamic drag in my motorman days. On some cars it was way stronger than others, thankfully it was eliminated when the R44 came out. Have any later contracts had it? In other words when you'd shut off and want to coast the train automatically got a light dynamic. I found tricks to kick it off one some types of cars but not on all. Made them handle a little more like R1-9, etc, they rolled great.
Anyway, does anybody know why this feature was built into classes R10 thru R 42? I never could find any good reason for it, especially since you'd have to stay in power if you wanted to keep speed up when you could have coasted without that dynamic drag?
The dynamics are not supposed to drag noticeably on "SMEE"
equipment. With the 3 wire (coasting) energized but the
5 wire (dynamic brake) de-energized with the brake handle in
release, the control package sets up the dynamic brake figure-8
loop but the loop current is kept low (<100 amperes per motor
group) and, more importantly, the fields are shunted at 50 or 75%,
which produces a reduced torque per given ampere of motor current.
This is known as the "spotting" function and for that reason the
3 wire is sometimes called the Spotting wire. There was no 3
wire in R1-9 cars (as they had no dynamic). The idea is to "spot"
the group switch control when you are in coast so that the proper
amount of dynamic brake load resistance is in the circuit to allow
a fast and accurate response when you pull back the brake handle.
Once the handle enters service range, the 5 wire is energized,
the field shunts are removed, and the current setting increases.
Having spotted the group switch during coasting avoids having to
sequence all the way down from maximum load resistance which could
take 1-2 seconds.
I don't know how the R-44 and R-46 "classic" cars avoided the
spotting brake. Perhaps the field shunting was heavier. I
can't recall looking at an ammeter during coast before all those
cars were modified back to SMEEs.
Now, the drag shouldn't have been troublesome but of course not
all cars were maintained the same. An open in the variable load
circuit, a blow FS contactor or a blown field shunt coil could
cause a car to drag. As Train Dude mentioned, WH CAM cars had
a problem with the dynamic voltage regulation J/BDC contactor.
A bad ME42 could keep the 5 wire energized even in release and
cause heavy plugging. The classic solution to dynamic drag was
of course to open the control cutout which de-energized 3 wire.
Thanks for the explanation; I always wondered what the 3-spotting wire did. It wasn't explained to us. I can remember our instructor telling us the R44 had no dynamic drag and indeed I never felt any.
I knew the R44/46 had major modifications but didn't know they were converted to SMEE. Just as well if that system worked, and that it did.[I worked the 44/46 before the conversions.]
I often did open the control cutout to get rid of the drag, but it didn't always work. I can even recall coasting down the lead to Corona Yard and the drag cut in even though I hadn't used any power after releasing. The R27-42 seemed was hard to get rid of it, sometimes couldn't particularly on Westinghouse cars. On all the R10's and similar I'd hit "switching" briefly and that would do it too. Of course then you had to be ready to stop on air alone.
Locomotives have a similar feature but you have to go into "set up" for it. It doesn't automatically cut in.
Strange thing; 6398 does this but only when coupled to other cars. When operated singly it coasts freely. I never understood why. But then again I also never really gave it a lot of thought.
The most common cause for this is creepage in the electric portion. Does it happen when coupled from one end only or from both? If it's from one end only, check for a D6 to 5 short on that portion. Usually it'll be in the rear block. If you do get it when coupled, another thing would be to open a door & operate on the bypass. This'll kill the D-6 wire. If all else fails .............. I may volunteer to help.
Naw it's no longer a problem since the museum doesn't have any other cars of the type to MU with. Just a curious note. But thanks for the tip.
I do have a short to the 4 wire. There's no switching. She goes right to series. For that I isolated the portions at the junction boxes. I did the same to the master controllers at their junctions as well. I haven't devoted much time to it since but I think it's coming from somewhere in the group box.
Erik, I'm confused. Are you talking about 10+ years ago when
6398 was still down on the system, or now up at Kingston?
Years ago in the old days when we still had the car in the system. Sorry, I should have made that clear.
For a second I thought you were running trains of SMEEs at
Kingston :)
Stopped by the Los Angeles Metro BLUE & RED line 7th & Metro Center
last 8 27 00 to see if the gestapo los angeles sheriffs looking around the Blue line upper station for victims to bully around etc...
Loaded up all of my still & new SONY DSC S30 digital cameras for
example kodak 400 & kodak 1000 speed films paid my $ 1.35 FARE got
my proff of purchase boarding ticket ( But did not ride )
Watched them look at everybody being cased as some kind of a suspect
or criminal element finally everybody was legal ( it made them mad )
& so about 15 minutes some of them get on the southbound blue line train the rest go upstairs to thier patrol cars & leave the 7th& Metro center station! ( man they should have not done that ) !!!!
You know the old saying WHEN THE CAT IS AWAY THE MICE WILL PLAY !!
@ Quickly out came my cameras & I go into a photographers orgy !!
snapping pictures here & there every angle possible.
Shooting trains coming & going !! no gestapo los angeles sheriffs! They are gone hoooray!!..
for the next fifteen minutes i kept on shooting you can see the results on my yahoo photos page tell me what you think !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
@ under digital transit photography...
If you would like to comment sign up for my transit club
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/masstransitcommentary
i will post them there too !! & this is to my friend South Ferry..
SALAAM GETS HIS REVENGE AGAINST THE LOS ANGELES BLUE LINE GESTAPO
SHERIFFS ..........ha! ha!! ha!! ha!! ha!!..( man that felt good )!!
Now there is only one thing to say ..I got this from this amusement park that used to be in long beach california called ""THE PIKE"" &
there they had a good old classic roller coaster. When the ride was finished as you pull in there was a sign that said { lets go again }
& thats what i am going to do go back to the 7th & metro center...
..........AGAIN..!!!!!!!!!!!!! thankz,..... salaam allah
Stopped by the Los Angeles Metro BLUE & RED line 7th & Metro Center
last 8 27 00 to see if the gestapo los angeles sheriffs looking around the Blue line upper station for victims to bully around etc...
Loaded up all of my still & new SONY DSC S30 digital cameras for
example kodak 400 & kodak 1000 speed films paid my $ 1.35 FARE got
my proff of purchase boarding ticket ( But did not ride )
Watched them look at everybody being cased as some kind of a suspect
or criminal element finally everybody was legal ( it made them mad )
& so about 15 minutes some of them get on the southbound blue line train the rest go upstairs to thier patrol cars & leave the 7th& Metro center station! ( man they should have not done that ) !!!!
You know the old saying WHEN THE CAT IS AWAY THE MICE WILL PLAY !!
@ Quickly out came my cameras & I go into a photographers orgy !!
snapping pictures here & there every angle possible.
Shooting trains coming & going !! no gestapo los angeles sheriffs! They are gone hoooray!!..
for the next fifteen minutes i kept on shooting you can see the results on my yahoo photos page tell me what you think !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
@ under digital transit photography......
If you would like to comment sign up for my transit club
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/masstransitcommentary
i will post them there too !! & this is to my friend South Ferry..
SALAAM GETS HIS REVENGE AGAINST THE LOS ANGELES BLUE LINE GESTAPO
SHERIFFS ..........ha! ha!! ha!! ha!! ha!!..( man that felt good )!!
Now there is only one thing to say ..I got this from this amusement park that used to be in long beach california called ""THE PIKE"" &
there they had a good old classic roller coaster. When the ride was finished as you pull in there was a sign that said { lets go again }
& thats what i am going to do go back to the 7th & metro center...
..........AGAIN..!!!!!!!!!!!!! thankz,..... salaam allah
So you're happy you may have violated the law? Or are you happy that you stereotyped police officers again?
Oh wait, you DID violate the law. Loitering.
-Hank
what law fool ?? what serreotypeing gestapo officers ??
what law did i violate ?? even the BLUE LINE motormen motorwoman agreed with
me hank !! & I did not loiter ( you idiot ) I had a ticket !!
what in the hell are you talking about ?? by the way did you look
at the pictures ?
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
""digital transit""
what serreotypeing gestapo officers ??
You surprisingly answered your own question.
Ticket or not, hanging around in a station for intents other than boarding the train could be illegal. Admittedly, I do not have knowledge of the law in CA, and I don't have the time right now to do the research required to debunk you, so we'll come back to that later.
You insist on refering to police officers as 'gestapo' That, my friend, is stereotyping, just as wrong a statememnt as "black guys steal car radios." (which is NOT, for those of you who don't see the point of this, a statement that I endorse or uphold)
We all are aware (and I'm sure Sgt. Rosen knows of at least one) that there are those officers who cross certain lines; however, to lump them together as you are doing would be the same as my statement above.
-Hank
Video Permits sure do come in handy..
why dont you waste your time & contact the los angeles rail systems metro webpage
& ask the webmaster to send you the ordinances reguarding what you have no information about whatsoever about the los angeles 7th & metro
station the blue red greeen & metrolink rail systems in reguard to photography etc..
I mean get the real scoop before you have the nerve to tell me what an occupation gestapo force & the southern california law enforvement community is like !!! again go to the internet under ""police brutality""...!!!
The same nazi forces here in southern california are now under the rico laws for too many innocent victims here!!
the los angeles police scandals is growing like a cancer here !!!( in todays news )
Don t tell me you dont read even in new york what is still going on!!
you can lump together whatever you may want but just because you
post it that makes it the truth right Mr.Hank Eienstein ??....!!!
you can lump together whatever you may want but just because you
post it that makes it the truth right Mr.Hank Eienstein ??....!!!
The least you can do is get my name spelled right. I do you that favor.
Just because I post it, doesn't automaticly make it true. But I try to avoid sterotyping and making broad generalizations about people, as you do. If you or anyone in your family had ever met a real nazi, you'd know better than to characterize people as such. I've got a nice list of people from my Mother's side of the family who are all dead, because of real nazis.
When I post, I have facts to back up my statements. You do not. You make up your facts to suit your purpose. I've had this discussion with you in the past, but you instead chose to believe talk radio. If I make a statement that is not backed by fact, and I am shown that I am wrong, I freely admit it. You also don't take the time to see if something you post as 'the truth' has any factual basis.
The key is research. All it took was 10 minutes of time at The Los Angeles City website to find the relavent information as it pertains to loitering, from the Los Angeles Municipal Code (unfortunately, the search key chages each time, so a link to the exact section is useless; however, if you click the 'info' link at the top of the page, you'll find your way):
SEC. 42.11.1. DEPOTS - STATIONS - AIRPORTS - LOITERING ABOUT PROHIBITED.
(Amended by Ord No 140,388, Eff. 6/28/70.)
It shall be unlawful for any person to loaf or loiter in any waiting room, lobby, or other portion of any railway station, electric railway station, airport or bus depot or upon the grounds of any common carrier adjacent thereto, provided, however, that nothing in this section will be deemed to prohibit any person occupying such station, airport or depot or grounds adjacent thereto, for the bonafide purpose of meeting relatives or acquaintances arriving upon any conveyance entering such place, or from accompanying or meeting relatives or acquaintances who are departing from such station, airport or depot upon any public conveyance operation therefrom, and, provided further, that nothing in this section shall be deemed to apply to any part of said station, airport or depot or grounds let for use as a restaurant or occupied by any other business not that of a common carrier.
So now I have the facts to back up my statement that you committed a crime, by loitering. But of course I expect you to refute this by again claiming the LAPD are nazis and gestapo.
-Hank
This morning, I saw for the first time graffiti on Washington's Metro system. Someone had taken a red marker to one of the seats on Rohr 1113, on which I was riding. It appeared to be just someone's tag. I guess it's a good thing that Metro is getting new interiors!
They need to take the car out of service and clean it as fast as possible, since I'm sure if the district's youths see that the tag is left untouched they'll do the same thing NYC's kiddos did back in 1972, after no one did anything about the "Taki 183" graffiti.
We can certainly hope that WMATA takes care of the problem. I have sent them an e-mail about it, and hopefully they will get that cleaned today.
Want a good laugh? See this amusing story from Los Angeles.
Seems Like a decent deal.
In North Dakota we spent several million dollars building new rest areas along the interstate. They are clean warm facilities, ultra modern plumbing, and the user does not need to touch anything in the room to use the facility. Toilets flush automatically, water in the sinks run when you put your hands under the spout, and hot air dryers work the same way. There are no doors on the restrooms (but are on the stalls) So everything stays very clean.
If this is what the advertizer is willing to build at *ten* stations, then I think that this is an acceptable deal regardless of what the detractors are saying. Transit needs to look at other ways to pay for things like this.
Elias
Most incredible is that they approved it unanimously (barring abstentions).
$1 Million a year to maintain 10 toilets. That's $100K per toilet, per year. (I'm assuming that it isn't $1M per toilet per year, but I may be too generous). And they're self cleaning!! What does the $100K support? A mechanic on duty next to each toilet 24/7?
The inability of key decision makers to understand simple mathematics is appalling. Somebody's getting rich here, and it isn't the Los Angeles MTA, taxpayer's or farepayers.
Chuck
If I get this right, the MTA isn't actually PAYING for this. They've bartered ad space, from which they will get some profit. According to the story, it is BELIEVED that the space is worth $500M. It could be more, it could be less.
-Hank
I do not suspect that it is 10 toilets, but rather 10 pairs of restrooms with perhaps 4 to 8 stalls each, well lighted and secure.
Nothing really is self cleaning, I mean, someone has to clean the floors the trash and the filth. And that contract is over a period of how many years?
Elias
I think it's for single pay toilet units.
And building pairs of toilets is a total waste of money. Stalls are separate anyway, and I don't think anything has to be hidden in the sink area.
Oh yes there is such a thing. Saw it at a demo in City Hall Park. The bowl and sink fold up into the walls, where a jet of hot water and disinfectant is sprayed into them. The floor also gets a spray of water and disinfectant. Only thing left behind is stuff like large wads of paper towels.
-Hank
I noticed that that toilet didn't have water in it (or am I just remember wrongly?). I only urinated there, but the flush button didn't work. I assume that it does for something for which we all have to sit down?
And there was a special keyhole for free handicapped access (why not just cards?) that also enabled a button to add 20 minutes, I guess they don't just give 40 minutes to begin with in case a person becomes incapacitated someone will realize that 20 minutes earlier. In that case why don't they just give only 5 or 10 minutes and have everybody press a button, just disable the renewal after a certain time? There was also an emergency button only for the disabled, but I guess those who are abled, and those who cannot get the keys can just pull up their pants and get out yelling fire.
The doors were double sliding and opened either automatically after 20 minutes or when a button was pressed. The "ride" cost 25 cents and included a cleaning after each use.
I only urinated there
We, uh, could have done without that particular detail.
"(or am I just remember wrongly?)"
Pigs, did you really write this?
I think that I meant remembering.
Now if I had said wrong instead of wrongly, I'd need to be flogged. I admit to being mildly irritated by the header: "Non-timed signal that goes direct from Red to Green" but I kept it to myself and I'm happy I did. I guess I let it out now, so I'm sorry, I didn't mean to let it out for the purposes of correction.
"Wrong" would have been fine. Since the 13th century "wrong" has been used as both an adjective and an adverb meaning incorrect or incorrectly, depending on which part of speech is needed.
I remember that from my days at Franklin K Lane HS. That's with an "i" instead of a "y". :-)
Forgot to mention:
There would be no paper towels on the floor only because there weren't any to begin with. There was toilet paper however, which it seems was auto replaceable (it was in the bottom of this large hanging box on which the Flush, Add 20 mins and Emergency buttons were).
Well, at least the Pentagon isn't the ONLY place that likes to spend the big bucks!!!
You took the words right out of my mouth....
Does anyone know if it is running today?
If not I won;t have to stand forever waiting.
Thanks !!
Have a nice day !!!!
Yes it is. Check it out.....
-Stef
So it is 14 in a row now.
If the R142A train began its test revenue service Sunday, the score would be R142 14 and R142A 2.
Chaohwa
Does anyone know the TOTAL number of days that each has been in service ?
Thanks !
Have a nice evening !!
Both R142 and R142A began their revenue testing in July. You can look at R142/R142A FAQ for details.
Chaohwa
Still going like the energizer bunny, my friend. My fingers are crossed that they pass the test with flying colors. A second 142 set is currently doing test simulations (6311-20), and wouldn't surprise if it went on the road soon.
-Stef
I have heard that the 30 day tests for the R62 and R68's actually took 6 to 8 months to complete. Could that be right? I wasn't paying attention way back when, didn't even live near NYC.
Is it reasonable to expect a train to go 30 days without some sort of problem, like door trouble, etc., that in the case of the R142/A will cause the 30 day clock to get reset, but wouldn't ordinarily be an issue on a road train?
>I have heard that the 30 day tests for the R62 and R68's actually took 6 to 8 months to complete. Could that be right? I wasn't paying attention way back when, didn't even live near NYC
I believe this. The cars were going through teething pains.
>Is it reasonable to expect a train to go 30 days without some sort of problem, like door trouble, etc., that in the case of the R142/A will cause the 30 day clock to get reset, but wouldn't ordinarily be an issue on a road train?
On a road train, failures are bound to happen. When a problem does occur, it's up to the Road Car Inspector to remedy the problem. The performance of the various car classes is up, because the fleets see regular maintenance schedules. If you tune something up before it breaks, chances of it actually breaking are low. Doesn't mean that failure will never happen. There will always be a chance for a potential problem along the way. In the case of the 30 Day Tests, the purpose of the tests is to see that new cars coming into service meet the passenger demands. I don't think anyone wants to see lemons on the road. But is inevitable that the 142/142As will have their share of problems. Expectations are high right now on these cars.
-Stef
Hey Stef, I got a question for you. Is there a Kawasaki train of R142As also running on the 2 line? While I was riding the first Bombardier train (6301-6310) to 241 St, I saw the 142A headed southbound. Its front LED sign had a big red circled 2 and the side signs read "2 - 7th Avenue Express" and "2 - To Flatbush Avenue." I looked to see if there were people on board but the train went by too fast. But I did catch three cars' road numbers 7223, 7224 and 7225. So are we on the 2 line lucky enough to have another new train in passenger service?
Thanks for answering my question. It appears that Kawasaki Cars 7231-7235 are now on the road making simulated stops. Will they be on the 2? No. These cars are going to the 6, when testing is complete.
As for another 142 train entering service on the 2 is concerned, I wouldn't be surprised if anothere hit the road. 6311-6320 is out making simulated stops.
-Stef
Also this day 15 for the R142s. They're half way to the finish line.
-Stef
Glad to hear it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. But one more question, about the electronic destination signs at the ends of the cars. The signs on the R142 display the (2) in red, while the ones on the R142A display the (6) and <6> in green. Do you know what numbers (greater than 7) are programmed into the signs' computers and what colors are they?
>The signs on the R142 display the (2) in red, while the ones on the R142A display the (6) and <6> in green. Do you know what numbers (greater than 7) are programmed into the signs' computers and what colors are they?
?
Well if you're referring to the outside ends, both sets of cars have the route numbers highlighted in red, and yes they should go above 7, you'll never know where they might wind up!
-Stef
Sorry, I should have made it clearer which signs I was refering to. What I meant were the electronic destination signs at the inside ends of the cars. Those display the 2 and the 6 in their proper colors. Can the number displayed on the left-hand end of the inside desination signs display numbers higher than 6, such as 7, 8 or 9 in their proper line colors (purple 7, green 8, red 9)?
Purple cannot be made on that sign, too expensive to make a sign that can show that color. The sign can show any number (or letter) in either red or green, but since the sign is tied in with the strip maps and automated announcements, there would actually have to be a route programmed in for it to ever be shown. No 2 digit numbers, the front and side signs don't allow for that, and I'm guessing they're all connected.
It can also show yellow, but I don't know if the wiring was done to allow this.
DC one way: Red
The other way: Green
AC: Yellow
Well the train I saw obviously included 7221-7225 or it might have been just those five cars being tested, meaning 7226-7230 are floating around somewhere in the eastern Bronx. I also saw 7231-7240 sitting on the side of the yard nearest to Rhinelander Ave. I guess in either case they will be headed to Westchester Yard to serve the 6 soon.
>Well the train I saw obviously included 7221-7225 or it might have been just those five cars being tested, meaning 7226-7230 are floating around somewhere in the eastern Bronx.
As far as I know, 7221-7230 aren't on the property yet. Trevor Logan would know for sure. I noticed that 7231-7235 weren't at Unionport as I passed today, which leads me to believe they're on the road.
-Stef
Yes, it's running.. away from
it's eventual date with the
kind folks at Scraporano..
Yes, it's running.. away from
it's eventual date with the
kind folks at Scraporano..
In 2045.
R-142 people: 45
Repulsive Rustbird Freaks like you: 5
I pity the other 44.
yet it's still 13-0.
What the hell is the basis for the score, the number of brain cells you have versus the number of brain cells your buddy Salaam has?
Redbirds get 1 point for every
142s goof-up or glitch or screw-up
or strike or bad side etc. etc....
It just doesn't seem to work the other way around.
So, what about the draggings and derailment? You didn't count those did you?
Quote
"It doesn't work the other way around"
Another quote,
"Those who try to hold the future back are usually the ones who end up getting run over by it"
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
The r-142 subway cars are running. Check this website for the schedule.
BMTJeff
Yes, I know they're running. What led you to believe I thought they weren't?
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh shut up, just shut up already. You don't know what you're talking about, you never have and you never will. You don't even try to make your ignorant posts sound like they make sense. But then again, you need to have a brain to make sense.
SHUT THE HELL UP WITH THAT ALREADY!?! Nobody gives two flying f*cks about your scoring system!!I expect a serious message and have to look at this crap! I don't have all night to look at these posts, you know!
Right on! Put "(1) South Ferry (9)" in your killfile and you won't have to see those obnoxious posts.
Alas, the responses would be overwhelmingly annoying, since noone thinks of altering the thread title when it veers into bullsh*t. Somewhere else in the thread, there are serious dicussions going on, under the same name. I set the board to chronological since I can't trust blue/purple links (2 OSes), so without threaded view I can't tell which responses are for which threads.
Killfiles stops by posting handles, not thread names.
Have a nice day !!!
This R142 vs. Redbird love/hate relationship is getting a little crazy here. I rode the R142 on the #2 yesterday, and although I wasn't thrilled by the cars guess what? They will be accepted by the TA and they will replace the Redbirds like it or not. They are here to stay. Time to grow up and practice being an adult! There can be no argument that the Redbirds are rusting away. Just look at the cars closely. Some people here (and this is not a reflection on Henry R32 since I happen to make this message as a response to his message), are just breaking each others balls only to annoy each other! And it's starting to become personal attacks which unfortunately happens quite often on this board lately.
That's Naporano! At least get the name of the company right, please. The R142s and 142As are running and they're running fine. Maybe if you actually rode them, you might enjoy them. Only a moron like you wouldn't appreciate smooth quiet clean trains. I'm sure you also think that we should go back to flying in propeller planes and that we should scrap jet planes. Well guess what . . .
IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN!
We're not going back to propeller planes and the TA is retiring the Rustbirds. So get your empty head out of the clouds and get used to the fact that the R142/142As are replacing the Rustbirds? Don't like it? MOVE! That is, if you live in New York, which I doubt. Most Redbird nuts don't have to ride them on a regular basis. Because if you HAD to, for so many years, you'd be sick of them too. But you don't!
1. Yes, I live in New York.
2. Yes, I grew up with redbirds on the 1 line.
3. Yes, I ride them on a daily basis.
4. Yes, I love them NOW as much as I did then!
Rode it today on the #2. Those mylar sheets on the glass to prevent scratching look like they can be easily torn off because if you look close enough you can see the seam......cars are hot at the ends but cold to the left and right of the center doors where the cool overhead air comes from......lit up strip maps are ok on the IRT where cars are dedicated to one line per maintance facility but when similar versions come to the B divison in the future where one facility supplies various routes lit up strip maps may become a problem.....the flashing yellow light under the doors designating that they are closing seemsto flash at the same time when the chime goes off: when the conductor pushes the door closing buttons. I think that yellow light should flash at all times while the doors are open.....I just wasn't impressed, I go by the KISS principle: Keep It Simple Stupid! Too much stuff can and will go wrong and won't function by the time the cars are all delivered.
The light is steady while the door is open, if it was flashing all the time, it would no longer serve it's purpose.
As for KISS, the last word in that completely sums up the validity of it.
Well, at least they didn't put some of those sterlizing lights on the 142s, like they did on the R-11s :-)
Well, at least they didn't put some of those sterlizing lights on the 142s, like they did on the R-11s :-)
Maybe they should, up on the roof where the surfers ride... at least it would help reduce the number of future candidates for the Darwin award :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's kind of a self-solving problem, considering how many of them die as it is.
-Hank
No, I don't think we'll ever see any precipitrons again.:-)
Does the schedule posted on WMATAGMOAGH's site ( http://members.aol.com/orentree/R142.htm) still apply? According to his schedule, a #2 train of R-142 cars should arrive at 42nd Street at 5:46 P.M. I was waiting for it at 34th Street at around that time, but I didn't see it. I finally had to settle for a Redbird, because I was running late.
Lyle Goldman
Its correct, but during the course of the day it will definitely run late. I recommend trying for it in the morning, it will be close to schedule. Yesterday afternoon I got it about 45 minutes later than the scheduled time. For some reason, the 6 is rarely late, probably because it doesn't share.
On the No.6 they make sure the train doesn't get to far behind unless theres a problem. If it arrives at Pelham late it goes in and out.
Much has been chatted about here regarding various fleets of subway cars, their MDBF ratings, how well built or sturdy some appeared and more. Most cars built from the 1960's on have seen a rebuild program and yet quite a few may be retired within the next 5 or 10 years.
To the best of my knowledge, the R1-R9 fleets never saw a GOH program and were simply run into the ground after as little as 37 or as much as 40+ years in service
I have a few questions regarding this:
* Was there a rebuild program for the R1-R9 fleets that I'm not aware of? (I don't mean the repainting some got before scrapping - really mean rebuild - GOH.)
* If the technology is so much superior today, how is it that the R1-R9s really lasted as long as they did?
* The R1-R9 fleets certainly were in service during years of neglect and deferred maintenance. What components were most likely to fail on them due to the deferred maintenance? How expensive would it have been to fix these fleets up?
* Although I was only a child when the R1-R9s were in service, I don't recall ever being on one taken out of service due to mechanical problems. Was their MDBF that much worse than todays fleets?
* Would a GOH have solved the problems the R1-R9s suffered from in old age?
The first ones were built in 1932, the last I suppose around 1940. They lasted until 1973. Were they becoming obsolete such that overhauls were not worth it? Possibly...
They had incandescent bulbs, which were hotter than the new fluorescents and could shatter more easily. They had woven seats, which people tore up. They had overhead fans, which could injure someone, while new cars with air conditioning were becoming available. The door opening devices required the conductor to stand in a space between two cars; new ones had them in the cab. And this is only the list of things passengers might notice. I am sure that there were lots of other technical improvements in the new cars becoming available in the mid-1970s. But, I liked them too, especially the later ones with the gray and white insides rather than the green insides (maybe they were just repainted).
I liked the sound of the R1-9s as they left the station!
Now just this afternoon I thought of them.
A BNSF coal drag was coming through town,
whistles blowing,
but there was some other sound there too,
maybe a super charger running fast or something.
Maybe Big Ed heard that one when it went by
and can tell us more about it.
Elias
I didn't notice that one Elias but if you notice you can detect the beloved sound of the old type traction motors on a lot of diesel units.One of the reasons I liked the old GE's, you could hear those sounds but then again the SD40's had a nice motor sound if you could tune your ears out from those noisy EMD prime movers [and turbos]
Well, I am about a half mile from the tracks, and with doors and windows closed (to keep the noon day heat out) it filters the frequencys somewhat, so even if it was a turbo that I heard, it was diminished until it sounded just right.
Elias
Those cars were music to my ears. Thanks to heypaul's audio tape, I can relive that experience anytime.
Actually some of them lasted past 1973. The R-7, R-7a and R-9 lasted until 1977. Some R-6s lasted until 1975 or 1976.
Most of the R-1 went out around 1969 or so; the R-4 were scrapping out en masse in 1970 and 1971.
wayne
Your concept of what the GOH program was may be a bit faulty. Clearly, the R-32s would have outlasted the R-9s without a GOH program by simply performing maintenance as required. The real purpose of the GOH program was to give a zero base for the SMS program. Once the cars were overhauled the SMS program was instituted, making future overhauls unnecessary. The true reason and benifit orf the GOH & SMS programs, however, was and is not longevity. It is performance and reliability. If you doubt me look at the redbirds. They have virtually all been overhauled and never-the-less will meet their ultimate fate after 40 years or so.
Your concept of what the GOH program was may be a bit faulty. Clearly, the R-32s would have outlasted the R-9s without a GOH program by simply performing maintenance as required. The real purpose of the GOH program was to give a zero base for the SMS program. Once the cars were overhauled the SMS program was instituted, making future overhauls unnecessary. The true reason and benifit of the GOH & SMS programs, however, was and is not longevity. It is performance and reliability. If you doubt me look at the redbirds. They have virtually all been overhauled and never-the-less will meet their ultimate fate after 40 years or so.
Back in the 70s when the R1-9s were being replaced by the 44s
and 46s, there were a bunch of guys in the shop who proposed
fixing up the R9s and keeping them. Their proposal was not
accepted by TA management.
The MDBF of that R1-9 fleet of course varied by which yard they
were assigned to, but in general MDBF was very low compared with
today's figures. However, most failures did not result in the
complete ABD of the train. Decades ago the road crews had a much
better mechanical understanding of the equipment, and many problems
were fixed on the road. Many unsafe practices were followed which
would never fly today. Trains were run in service with a BCO
car, the c/r was out in the open, no side door interlock on the
master controller, etc.
Mechanically, the R1-9s were not capable of meeting the same service
schedule as the SMEEs, as they had poorer acceleration and braking
rates, lower top-end speed, and slower doors. On the lines on which
they finished out their careers, e.g. the BMT eastern division, it
didn't matter too much because service was light anyway. The
control systems were a bit simpler than the various SMEE generations,
but extremely labor intensive to maintain. There were a lot of things
that required lubrication and inspection as often as every 1000 miles.
Some things weren't that critical if missed for a few cycles, but
others, such as letting the journal boxes run dry, could have
serious consequences.
The soundest part of the R1-9s at retirement was the body structure.
Like the R-10, these cars were built with heavy steel and most
of the cars were in reasonable shape at the end. Had the TA wanted
to, it probably could have saved the bodies and replaced the
propulsion and brake packages, door operators, lighting and of course
the trucks and had a bunch of not-quite-new R10s as a result :)
However, remember that in the mid 70s first of all the city was
in a finanical crisis so where would the money for all this have
come from? Secondly, the TA's strategic direction was very much
new-tech. A lot was politically riding on the R-44 and R-46 cars.
Fixing up the old cars to make them last a few more years would be
like admitting failure. Hmmm, maybe some parallels to the year 2000?
Hello Out there from TV Land!
Still very much a railfan, and more so, a subway fan at that. However, nothing to take away from the SMEE cars, but with the demise of the last Pre-war cars in 1977 (The R1/9s), some of my enthusiasm went out. I loved those IND R1/9s and nothing to take away from them, but the fact is that in the mid 1960s, the failure rates of many of the early R1/9s led to many a proposal to scrap those cars ahead of the BMT ABs! Unbelievable but true, a car that was almost 20 years older than the R1/9s had a much higher MDBF rate! Some may argue that this was because the ABs (396) were overhauled in the late 1950s, but this was a very cursory rewinding of the motors and rewiring. Even better, the BMT D-types went to the scrapper with one of the highest MDBF rates; almost 40 years old, with never a GOH! With all of the newfangled technology in todays cars, the TA and the manufacturers have forgotten a basic principle of workhorse performance needs: "KISS" ( keep it simple, stupid! )
Give me dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!
We've got: Hot lunch!
With all of the newfangled technology in todays cars, the TA and the manufacturers have forgotten a basic principle of workhorse performance needs: "KISS" ( keep it simple, stupid! )
What does this have to do with the early (or late) scrapping of cars in the 1960s. The modern cars weren't around back then.
As for simplicity, the R-1/9s, which you say had problems and had to be scrapped before older cars were simple as it is. The IND forewent the BMT's technological advancements re the Multisectionals. The R-1/9s were a step backwards and the beginning of years of technological lagging in New York transit. The R-11 failed to break that pattern, and the R-44/46 didn't help with their lack of testing and tuning.
The R1-9 is basically a D type but without the articulation.
It was state-of-the-art in 1929 when the R-1 was being designed.
All of the advances of the BMT in the 30s and 40s with the
various articulated designs were of course lost when the city
took over and continued ordering conservative car designs.
None of those designs were particularly reliable, however.
The ultimate in KISS would have to be the Hi-Vs which lasted about
50+ years without any significant upgrades or overhauls. The
ABs survived about as long but received a rebuild late in life
(ca 1960) which replaced the simple but worn-out unit switch group
with a brand-new, obsolete MCM box. This and the re-wiring fixed
a lot of the reliability problems.
The IND borrowed heavily from the BMT when it came to car design. Front end route and destination signs, backlit side destination signs, even the braking system was taken from the Triplexes. Heypaul sent me an audio tape he made during one of the Triplex railfan trips, and by golly their brakes do indeed sound exactly the same as those on the R-1/9s.
The side sign box gives a good idea as to how heavily those cars were built. My sign box, complete with sign mechanisms, weighs 100 pounds.
Hi Jeff H- whe you mentioned the MCM boxes going into overhauled B types, is that the same G.E. MCM they used in the Picture Window PCC cars?
In a sense. It was a compact MCM box which was GE's state of
the art in 1959. A similar unit was used on the R26,7,8&9 orders.
The box that was put under the ABs was unusual in that it had
no dynamic braking and was tailored to work with the existing
grid resistors.
Thank you for your kind words about the last piece of NYCT equipment that I loved. Like you, even if I liked a lot of the SMEE's the fun went out with the R1-9.
I rarely disagree with Jeff H. who is THE most knowledgeable person here on mechanical matters..I fail to see where speed wise the R1-9 were that inferior. True acceleration and braking was slower but doors about the same and top speed..they could highball with the newest. Local-express runs such as the A to East NY...the R10's did reduce the running time by 6 minutes,but does it matter that much.
A good train of R1-9 was one gosh-beautiful train to run, passenger comfort wise they were as good and in some cases better than newer stock. Until a/c came in anyway. Had I been around for the old IRT as a motorman I'd probably have liked them better, but I loved running a good R9. It's a long story I won't spend time on now.
Two major things left them out as rebuild candidates: lack of dynamic braking and friction journals instead of roller bearings, likewise likelihood was slim they could have been air conditioned. OTOH some mainline roads did air-condition their heavyweight steel passenger cars.
; In Pennsy's case they also converted them to roller journals.
The R1-9 was a dated relic from another age, even before the whole fleet was built they were outdated considering some of the innovations of the 30's. But they were a good solid car made to last and serve, which they did well.
Lack of dynamic brake required replacement of brakes shoes about 5x as often, friction [brass] journals also labor intensive, likewise the vandal prone incandescent lighting, not only that but fluorescent lasts a lot longer.I could go on and on.
The reason they had such a high breakdown rate especially in the mid 60's and especially the Jamaica fleet was mostly due to one aspect of deferred maintenance. Believe it or not: compressors. The air systems got oil contaminated badly when the compressors were let go; the Blow down valves that let moisture escape from reservoirs became plugged and condensate in the air lines was high. How many can remember when the whistle was blown water came out with the air. Overcharging feed valves cost many cases of stuck brakes but you could run with that once you got them released; OTOH sometimes individual car control valves caused stuck brakes, caused doors to fail to close and/ or lock, or clearing slow. Control systems got goofed up as they were electro=pneumatic. Luckily the fleet did get cleaned out and the R1-9's last years were somewhat better.
They lasted so long because they were built in a way thsat seems to be forgotten in this country at least in some aras: quality, durability, and YES...KISS.
They were great...and I loved them, but I guess their time was up. Thanks again for your kind thoughts.
I have to agree with you regarding R-1/9 speed. They could move, no doubt. It's unfortunate that my express jaunts on them were very few and far between - a few D trains along CPW, two E trains in Queens, and one E running express along Fulton St. I regret never having ridden on a prewar A train along CPW.
My eyes would pop when a prewar A or D train would pull in, even more so if there weren't any headlights. Their doors were quick enough, a bit faster than on the newer cars, but not as fast as the doors on the R-10s.
I love talking about those R-1/9s. Like the R-10s, they were an immortal bunch.
The R-9 doors I guess were about the same as most of the SMEEs but
no where near as fast as the R-10s. I think the R10s were the
best R types ever built. The R-9s had an accelerating
rate of about 1.9 MPH/s, service braking at about 2.3-2.5, and
a balance speed of 45 MPH. The SMEE specs were 2.5 accelerating,
3.0 braking and 50 on balance. SMEEs had a definite braking
advantage at high speeds because of the dynamics. Of course,
the way the SMEEs are today, the R9s would beat them all around
except on high-speed service braking.
The lights could have been converted and air conditioning might
have been possible, although that would have made the R9s very
very heavy. The ceilings would have to have been redone to
provide a return air plenum.
Electropneumatic control systems are a lot of fun to play with
but not much fun when you're also trying to run a railroad. The
R9s in later years had the spitters which drain the main reservoir
tanks whenever the compressor cycles on, but even that's not 100%.
I'm not sure if the IND followed the same destructive practices as
the IRT and put alchohol in the air lines to prevent freeze-ups in
the winter. That eats the rubber gaskets over time. At Branford,
I don't even try to move 1689 if it's below 25 degrees.
I can recall one trial train on the D in 1965 I think that they tried alcohol on but luckily the practice went no farther.
The R-10s had the fastest doors of any subway car in New York, IMHO.
All NYCT doors are supposed to operate at the same speed. 1.5 seconds on opening and 2.5 seconds on closing.
Does the include the r142/242a with the wider doors? If so that means that the speed must be greater since the doors are wider.
Have a nice day !!
I believe that this question came up at the 'HSC' at the March 2000 meeting. The standard NYCT door panel is 25 inches wide. This means on opening the panel travels 16.7 inches per second and 10 inches per second on closing. I've not seen the new dimensions but if they are the same as the R-110A (32 inches per panel) that would mean they travel at 21.3 inches per second on opening and 12.8 inches per second on closing. Draw your own conclusions.
Does the include the r142/142a with the wider doors? If so that means that the speed must be greater since the doors are wider.
Sorry for the typo.
Have a nice day !!
On today's equipment, that makes sense, as the doors on all cars seem to open and close in a uniform manner. I have seen some R-44s whose doors are quite sluggish.
Are the same door engines used on all equipment today?
Hardly. We don't even use the same door equipment on the same car contracts. R-32s use Midland Ross or vapor door operators, for example. However, all R-46s use Westcode.
That's on the electric doors (oh, and you forgot about the
closing cushioning speed :) The R-10 doors were definitely
faster. If memory serves, about 1 second on closing, and SLOWER
on opening, maybe 2 seconds. The adjustment is a needle valve on
the air piston. I distincly remember on opening you could hear
the long, lazy hissssssss but on closing it was an abrupt pst!
and then watch out!
That's just the way I remember those doors. They did close very rapidly. The R-10s didn't like to waste time.:-)
Air pressures on all SMEE cars were higher than on R1-9 so the R10 air doors were indeed faster.
[The lights could have been converted and air conditioning might
have been possible, although that would have made the R9s very
very heavy. The ceilings would have to have been redone to
provide a return air plenum.]
Jeff, wouldn't the mere changing of lighting from bulbs-in-series to flouresant caused a certain amount of interior roof & wall modifications? I'm sure if the R-9s had ever hung around to be outfitted with new lighting and A/C their interiors would have been altered to resemble what was done to the R-11/34s (generic R-type low-roof).
Doug aka BMTman
Scrapper ain't the word for the Triplexes. Slaughterhouse is more like it. You mentioned some time ago that the TA wanted to get rid of all "nonstandard" equipment, regardless of condition, which to me was dumb, dumb, and dumber.
I guess we all have sore subjects. With Chris R-16, it was the demolition of the outer end of the Jamaica el (sorry, Chris); with me, it was the premature slaughter of the Triplexes. I'll bet they would have lasted through the 1970s and would have kept rolling right along well into the 80s.
Steve,
How true, it is a sore spot with me concerning the early demise of the D-types. I agree that they would have lasted at least into the mid or late 70s, but as I stated ealier, apparently the TA wanted to get rid of all non-standard (no pun intended) rolling stock.
As for the rebuilt ABs, when their rebuilding was done, it was figured that would extend their lives at least an additional 10 years, but alas many of those rebuilds only made it 7-8 years.
I realize that no matter how much we grow fond of old equipment it has to make way to newer stock, but why not get the maximum life out of the equipment?
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I may be wrong but I think the D types got scrapped early was because of their weight. Very heavy cars.......The R1/9's were victims of poor maintance, and very high mileage use.
With all due respect, I'm not so sure that weight was an issue. Look at it this way: the Triplexes spent most of their careers on the Sea Beach (all open cut) and Brighton (part open cut, part embankment, part elevated) lines. From all accounts, it was only in their final year of service that they were sent to the West End. They also operated on the Astoria line after 1949; however, all Dual Contracts elevated structures could and did accommodate them. If anything, the Manhattan Bridge suffered from their immense weight more than any elevated structure, in which case they could have run via tunnel.
The R-1/9s received a double whammy: deferred maintenance plus an attitude of "we're getting new cars so we won't look after the old ones anymore". They became sort of an unwanted stepchild.
Steve,
I too, believe that weight was not the primary issue causing the early demise of the D-types. According to a very knowledgeable source of mine who was in charge of selecting what cars would be saved as museum pieces, the drive towards eliminating non-standard rolling stock was the primary reason the D-types met an early demise. (witness the scrapping of 25 year old multis, too.)
Without slandering anyone who worked in upper management of the TA at the time, let's not forget the possibilty of kickbacks and bribes to scrap cars before their time in order to award multi-million dollar contracts. ( with those huge R27/30 and R32 contracts, what would it matter if a few hundred thousand found its way in to the pockets of persons in charge of awarding contracts? Not possible you say? Remember; if you build a better mouse trap, someone will always build a better mouse!)
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Some R-1/9 type loss leaders:
R-6-3 #991! Laid down and DIED leaving 50th Street on Nov 29 1968. Locked up her brakes real good.
R-7 #1380! Fouled up the "EE" and "GG" real good one day in Oct. 1972 - she made it as far as 63rd Drive and refused to go any further.
R-6-3 #1118. A woeful day on the "EE" on April 11, 1969.
I believe the Eastern Division cars fared somewhat better.
wayne
Say, Wayne, I know you were on that E train (which IIRC became uncomfortably warm). Were you on the other two trains you mentioned?
Is this company a type of public-private corperation like Amtrak and the Post Office is? I thought before they changed the name from London Transport, it was an entirely private company. The web site says that the company answers to the mayor of London. Was it always a quasi-public company? When London finally got a mayor, is that when these changes took place? Also, what percent of operating costs are paid for by fares?
As far as I know London Transport has never been a private company. The original Tube line railroads were private, but one LT took them over, they were public. I don't know the details of funding.
Well, London Transport (Board) has always been resposible to whatever authroity is running London at the time as well as the government. Now the Mayor, before an association of London Boroughs, and before that the Greater London Council which at it's demise was lead by Mr Ken Livingstone who is now the Mayor.
At the moment the public feels it owns it and has becasue of this is quite sympathetic when things go wrong. This support may well diminish once privitisation takes hold. As has happened with other railways, once privitied, the public goes into blame culture.
It will be interesting to see what happens and if thewre are any lessons for other systems. What would New York be like if the clock was put back to the days of the IRT, BMT and IND and they were all put on a dimishing subsidy, told to increas passenger numbers by 50%, and also to make a profit for the shareholders. As all your cars already have A/C you don't have to have that as well.
Not quite on topic, but according to one of the press releases, Ken Livingstone will cancel all staff cars for LT management, so that they have to experience what they are responsible for.
[I bet they will just use their own cars instead.]
[No, I refuse to call it TfL.]
I think the staff may get another job.
Simon
Swindon UK
Now that I have a website I am displaying my Money Train GIF.
Very nice ... I particularily like the SMALL size vs. some others who feel the need to fill the whole screen (hint hint)
Mr t__:^)
That's the way it is. Here's the R110B.
What is your site's URL/Address?
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
It will be done as soon as NS and CSX lets Amtrak run the Pheobe Snow on time. And when I finish alot of Eire Lackawanna Stuff.
Or when the 63 Street Connection Opens.
Where's Wesley Snipes and Woody Harrelson???
On Amtrak's Pheobe Snow due to NS & CSX and also takes an hour at Scranton to swing the E60 around for the NY Section and to get the Hoboken Section off.
I was looking through the subtalk archives and tried clicking on a link that is supposed to take you to what the message is in response to, but I get a No Message error.
It looks as though the URLs are different. For example, the message at
http://astroland.nycsubway.org:8080/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=/mal/pirmann/htdocs/subtalk/136000:136774,
according to the page that is displayed through that address, is in response to the message at
http://astroland.nycsubway.org:8080/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=136757.
When you click on the link, you get the message not found error.
It should be
http://astroland.nycsubway.org:8080/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=/mal/pirmann/htdocs/subtalk/136000:136757.
Please see if this is fixable. If so, fix it. It just doesn't seem right to click on a link that should take you where you want to go and the link takes you where you don't want to go.
P.S. I also found this same problem with the "Previous Message," "Previous in Thread," "Next in Thread," and "Next" links.
I'll look into it. But for now you're lucky the archives are available at all.
-Dave
Oh I see. That's an easy fix.
But remember the threading and parenting will still break at the 1000-message boundaries. There's just too much data for the webbbs software to deal with to overcome this limitation.
-Dave
The archives work well. I located the first message I posted, 6/30/98 at 23:30 hours. Hard to believe I was post #7409, which was about the Transit Museum's El Cars.
You've come a long way, my friend.
A question: Can I do a general search through the archives? I can serach more recent messages, but those in the archives can't be done as easily.
-Stef
No, the archives aren't searchable- the webbbs doesn't have any sort of indexed search capability (it runs brute force reading each message and looking for your key words) so it would take nearly forever to process almost 150,000 articles. And an external search engine would need some customization since the messages aren't stored as web documents..
-Dave
What about a search for each thousand or ten thousand messages? Useful if you kinda know where the message is, but not exactly.
Does the Mta give guided tours of any yards around town?
Where if any would there be remnants of the 70's tagged cars still lying around NYC
You must be new to this board ?
The MTA/TA per say doesn't give tours with the exception of a annual Metro-North event at Croton-Harmon. The TA Museum on the other hand does coor. some train rides and tours, but most of their tours are along the (subway) line and may only incl. towers or areas adjacent to stations, e.g. trolley tracks at Delancey/Essex.
There are RailFan groups who obtain permission to bring a bunch of folks to yards/shops, e.g. ERA/UTC. Where a member of that group is also a poster here we may find out about it & be able to tag along. There is also a frequent poster here who is a member of the group in the Coney Island yard that is restoring cars that belong to that group. He has promised a tour of the CI yard.
Mr t__:^)
Your post raises a few questions:
Doesn't the TA own and operate the Museum? If not, who does?
Who is this group that is restoring their cars in CI Yard? Do they pay rent or storage fees? Is the space their property takes up surplus to the TA's needs? Do they use their own equipment and tools or tools and equipment belonging to the TA? If the latter, are they charged a fee for the use of TA property?
As far as the Museum is concerned. It is owned and operated by the MTA but is not funded by them, it is funded through donations from individuals and corporations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for the info.
Andee, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Transit Museum, PARTIALLY funded by MTA? I know that they get no money per se from NYCT, but I thought some bucks came from the MTA (with the bulk being from corporate and/or private donations).
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, they get some money from the MTA but, the majority is donations.
Hence the reason that only 90% of a given entities donation is tax deductable. They have 501(c)3 non-profit agency status.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK so you have part one answered, i.e. TA vs. Museum
Part two relates to Coney Island.
Some of the old stuff there and elseware still belongs to the TA.
As the TA decides to "srap" cars the "Railway Preservation Corp." may purchase selected items. There is a group of tracks that their stuff sits on. You'll also find cars inside, e.g. Standards. The principle person at RPC is a former TA maint. supt. so the relationship is a lot less ridge then if non-TA folks were running it.
Politics/union job ownership do enter in, e.g. they only WORK on their cars one evening a week. RPC does get involved with some restoration of TA cars, e.g. D Types, which I think were/are owned by RPC.
Anyhow I'm not going to go into any more detail because I have nothing to do with RPC, so they can speak further about this themselves if they wish.
Mr t ... member of another trolley/subway museum
Very interesting. Thanks for the info. I wonder if RPC has a website.
There are still blue-silver cars with tags in several yards, Wakefield yard in the Bronx has one (visible from the street). 36-38 also has a redbird R-30 that is tagged up, but it is only visible from inside the yard (the fantrip went here).
Perhaps lying at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, but little chance of finding any on dry land.
So how does a 7 hour transit filled layover turn into a 2 hour eat and blow? Well, when your train gets stuck behind a CSX freight and goes from EAST CONWAY to Akron at Medium Speed (30 mph). But anyway here are all the details. My dad and I got on a PATCO train and sat in the back in order to make a better connection with the MLF TVM's. However as we approached Westmont station the train recieved some limiting cab signals. The T/O came on and said that there was a disabled train ahead and there would be a 5 min delay. Well after we got going I began to curse myself for not moving to the front because I would have see all the cool cab signal action as well as the train making the cross-back-over at EAST FERRY (along the pocket track). Well we made the MFL connection and took it to 30th St. At that point I ran alone up to 35th St. in order to get a meatball sub and some sodas from a street vendor (they are $1.25 on board the train). I got back to 30th and found our train to be 10 min late. After futzing around at Harrisburg to attach 4 road-railers we were 22 min late. I had my scanner and a was able to listen in on the whole operation as well as STATE tower. Also all of the Defect decetors in the NBG area still read Conrail. Also the PRR main line is still about 80% Position Light and most of the interlockings are electro-penumatic. Just after Huntington we got stuck behind a NS freight. Signal calling was in effect so I was first to hear the bad news. We stayed at meduim speed untill the Alltoona East could jump us around at CP-Gray. At this point I went back into the rear vestablue. Because the trailing cars were raodrailers I had a descent view to the back and side.
Well we pulled into Altoona aboot 1 hour late. ALTO was staffed by a woman that night and she was getting rather bitchy at the engineers who kept calling in repeatedly. We rounded the horseshoe curve and past MG tower. It was at this point that the conductor kicked me our of the vestabule. We zipped along to Pittsburg and then accross the river to EAST CONWAY. After he let us through I looked over onto the #4 track to see the W/B Capitol Limited pulling ahead of us. Well then at CP-Rochester we caught up and passed the Cap Limited, but as we approach the big flying junction at New Brighton we slowed way down and the Cap sped by on the Fort Wayne line. I had been trying to stay up until Akron in order to meet someone from the interlocking-towers e-mail list who worked at the station. But by this time it was 1.30AM and I tried to get some sleep. As the train plodded along at 30mph I tossed and turned, pumped full of excitement. At some point I dozzed off cause I woke up to the train still moving at 30, just this time it was passing B&O colour position lights. I also noticed that it was getting lighter out. Akron was schedualed for 1.35AM. It was now about 6AM. Well at least I would be able to see most of Ohio in the daytime. The one good thing was that at about this point they made all the food in the cafe` car free.
Well we passed Willard yard, J tower and F tower in Fostoria. The train went on and I amused myself by listening to the scanner. Despite being 5 hours late we were making good time in that we were not getting later. The best radio line I heard was when Amtrak 41 reported into the dispatcher his location.
Dispatcher: Your're a little tardy today.
Amtrak 41: Quality takes time.
Dispatcher: ::laughes::
As we approached Chicago we went from the B&O main onto the CSX Chicago Line. I saw HICK tower, we crossed the Rock Island diamonds at Englewood and went accross the quad draws (now 3 w/ 2 out of service). Then I heard the one thing that lets all railfans know that they have entered the Windy City, "Conrail...Chicago, Illinois...Track 1...No Dragging Equipment". Boy was that a sound for a pair of 4.5 hour late ears. Well after dumping the road-railers we got into the station. We dumped our luggage and went on a search for Chicago Style Pizza. We think we found some and it was pretty good.
The second leg of my journey was on the southwest Chief. The only thing of note was that on the way out we set off a Dragging Equipment Detector and on the way back I stood at the end of the last car while they backed into the station. BTW Amtrak uses B&O CPL dwarf signals at Chicago Union Station. My returning Southwest Chief was only 2 hours late and so I got a 3 hour layover in Chicago. I visited the downtown and La Salle St. station and Van Burren Station on the electric line. I also walked a distance under the loop.
Here are some quick Chicago questions:
What is that abandonned EL in the south of Chicago that passes over the PRR main and next to the CB&Q main. Its near the red line.
Why hasn't METRA installed overhead catenary shields on all the bridges over the Electric Division? I love the view, but itsn't METRA being a little dangerous?
What are all those stupid drawbridges for? Are they actually used? Is Chicago pretending to be a port or something, cause the nearest ocean in 100 miles away. They should leave the shipping to the costal professionals.
What is the point of those turnstyles on the electric div? They were all closed when I got there and ppl could walk through a gate. Furthermore the conductors check your tickets on the train.
We boarded the return train 40 at 9:20 PM and after we passed HICK tower I went to sleep and slept until Youngstown. Just b4 harrisburg one of the 14 road-railers got a leak in its airhose and luckly the NS train that was following us had a spare and they fixed us right up. We pulled into 30th St. about 3 hours late.
What are all those stupid drawbridges for? Are they actually used? Is Chicago pretending to be a port or something, cause the nearest ocean in 100 miles away. They should leave the shipping to the costal professionals.
Try learning something about shipping on the Great Lakes before you make ridiculous statements such as that. Yes, the drawbridges are used - quite a bit, I might add. Chicago is not as major a port as it used to be, thanks to the railroads, but the history of shipping on the Great Lakes is every bit as interesting as that on the ocean. Ore boats in particular ply the Lakes, bringing raw iron ore (or nowadays usually semi-processed ore in the form of taconite pellets) from the mines of Minnesota and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to the steel mills of Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, and even for export via the New York State Barge Canal (a.k.a. Erie Canal). Imported oil flows in the reverse direction, and some coal as well. Merchandise traffic travels across the lakes, although again not nearly at the levels of 150 years ago (relative to the population). Railroad ferries crossed the Lakes for many years, and I think at least one still does. And the crews of the ore boats in particular rank among the finest maritime professionals to ever set sail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, the last train ferry across Lake Michigan terminated 2 or 3 years ago.
Bob
Thanks Bob... I knew one had ended in that time frame but didn't realize it was the last one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chicago is not as major a port as it used to be, thanks to the railroads, but the history of shipping on the Great Lakes is every bit as interesting as that on the ocean. Ore boats in particular ply the Lakes, bringing raw iron ore (or nowadays usually semi-processed ore in the form of taconite pellets) from the mines of Minnesota and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to the steel mills of Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, and even for export via the New York State Barge Canal (a.k.a. Erie Canal).
Just for the record, I don't believe there is any commercial shipping on the Erie Canal anymore except maybe for some local barge traffic. Ships under ~750 feet use the St. Lawrence Seaway for ocean access. There also are some larger ships used strictly for Lakes shipping, being too large for the Seaway (IIRC, the Welland Canal locks are the "choke point").
Your other observations are right on the money.
I don't believe there is any commercial shipping on the Erie Canal anymore except maybe for some local barge traffic.
You may be right, Peter, but there must be a LOT of local barge traffic then - the Maple Leaf parallels the canal for many miles and when we rode it two weeks ago I lost count of the number of tows we saw. The ships, as you correctly pointed out, use the St. Lawrence Seaway (we saw lots of them too, especially at Montréal and Québec City), or are confined to the Lakes by their sheer size.
Container trains and unit trains of bulk commodities have rendered the canal largely obsolete, and may do the same with the Seaway in the next twenty years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...you're complaining about meatball subs
and sodas being $1.25 on-board the train???
They're $4.75 for the sub and $1.39 for the soda
here in NY!!
The Russian at the corner of 35th St. (or the Rancid Ruskiee as I like to call him because of a bad batch of peanuts I got) sells candy, sodas and nuts. Candy and soda are 50 cents and the nuts/dried fruit is $1. He's very nice and I went there all summer while at Penn. I had to get in a last call. Next to him is a mobile food vending place with a meatball sub special, ie soda, chips and meatball sub for $2.60. On the 3 rivers sods is 1.25 per can and the only food is microwaved stuff that costs about 2.75 I ran up to 35 and got a lunch to go and 4 additional cans of soda to tide me over in the first part of the trip. So I'm complaining about the 1.25 price of soda and the lack of any meatball sub. If you think about it those mobile food vending places (some even serve chineese) could probably fit in the food service space in an amtrak cafe` car. They should install one and raise the food quality.
Those rubber pizzas are pretty good, same size as pizza hut personal pan but cost less...
I have always thought that Amtrak should, instead of selling cans of soda and having to restock at every main stop, put a small tap system in and sell CUPS of soda- it would be more profitable [places like Mickey D's make more pure profit off its drinks than any of its food items...] would save space in the long run, save TIME in the long run too [less stuff to load on..], and I really the people would like it too....{ I also bet Pepsi or Coke would be VERY happy to help them develop a workable system too....}It would also help in case New York, or other states that require deposits [OR recycling...], decide to crack down on Amtrak someday....
I also noticed that lack of recycleing facilities on board. I was about to carry out my cans when I realized that by taking the train I was already saving energy etc., but a recycleing bin in just the cafe car could go a long way. But remember for a company to get a recycling bin they have to a) buy the bins and b) get someone to empty them. This simple process means cost studies, plans, commities, talking to the union to allow the cleaner to empty the bin and possibly having to alter the contract. Here at school we can't get official recycleing bins in the dorm halls because of this.
You can't have bins in the hall because it violates the firecode, but you can have 2 trash cans in the hall because it is allocated to the bathroom. You can't allocate a recycling bin to the bathroom because there is already another trash can in the bathroom and the bathroom can't have 4 bins in it even though 3 of those bins would be living in the hall.
[I have always thought that Amtrak should, instead of selling cans of soda and having to restock at every main stop, put a
small tap system in and sell CUPS of soda...]
This would be far too labor intensive. The entire tap system would have to be dismantled and cleaned (sterilized?) at frequent intervals to comply with sanitation codes.
[After futzing around at Harrisburg to attach 4 road-railers we were 22 min late.]
Aw, let 'em futz!
5 Years ago Amtrak was ready to kiss-off the Keystone Line. The Commonwealth had to pony up the cash to keep service to 'the burg' more than the 2 thru-trains a day. Granted, 41 would probably have survived, being an "inter-city," train, but anything that makes Amtrak some dough in south central Pennsyltucky is ok by me. Express shipping is still new for them. Let 'em work out the kinks.
You could always ask for your money back -- they now have a "guarantee," you know. :o)
Well I had no problem w/ my trip and the delay let me go through Ohio in daylight. I love the idea of the road-railers, the only bad part is that they block the railfan window. I would prefer it if Amtrak put them on the front end, but hey. On our inbound, the outbound train 40 was 2 hours late and they were already in the station getting serviced and the resulting 2 train operation to me fit the defination of futzing (although actions did serve a point).
Hey Mike...did you find anything happening in Topeka?? Did you eat on the Chief like we said to?
Yes, I had both dinner and breakfast on the Chief. Steak for dinner and a cheese omlet w/ grits for breakfast. We arrived in Topeaka at 2:40 AM and while the van from the hotel was arriving I stod on the platform and practiced my night photography on a GP-60 (Warbonnet paint job altered to read BNSF) and GP-38-2 lashup and on a long GP-35.
The next morning, we checked out of the "close to station" hotel and hod to wait 3 hours untill we could check into the planned upon hotel. We got lunch (midwestern hoagies) and then went back down to the station. The busy time for the station is 12-8AM, but it is open and staffed all day (Friday at least). We got there at 1 AM and waited untill 3 then the other hotel van would pick us up. Well the GP-60/38 were still there and the GP-35 was down in the yard doing something. After a time the 35 came back, got off and walked into the crew change office adjacent to the Amtrak station. The conductor was nice and we exchanged a few words. They then walked back out, got into the 35, went down into the yard, tooted the horn a few times and came back after like 15 min where they parked and walked back into the office. When the conductor came back out again he gave my dad and I some official BNSF bottled water cause it was like 100 out (we were sitting under the platform umbrella and BTW the GP-35 had AC and had a new BNSF pumpkin paint job). Then then went back down the yard and brought back the BNSF office car train which was to be used for a week of excustion runs. At this point I had a nice long chat w/ the conductor guy. At this point the hotel van arrives, and wouldn't you know it, but w/in the next hour they were expecting 2 freights and a coal train. Although Topeaka is the T in ATSF, the line in and out is a single track and except for the locomotive shoppe most action is on the 3 track UP main to the north. I did take many pictures of what did come by (GP-60, GP38, the GP35, office train and a 4 unit lashup that included an old GE in ATSF blue and yellow.
The Sunday morning I arrived at 5 AM for the train which ended up being 2 hours late. I was able to pratice some more nite shots and it was fun to watch the signals tumble down as the Amtrak came up the wrong way.
This afternoon, a man on the Metro tracks in the Friendship Heights station was run over and killed by a WMATA train bound for Shady Grove.
Details from the Washington Post
"The MTA charts how many people have been killed by trains—42 in 1999"
If this is the fact then that amounts to 3.5 deaths a month
1 death every 8.5 days.
42 deaths out of a billion passengers a year does not look significant,yet 1 out of every 8.5 days is a scary and high ratio.
Just wondering what the demo of society is the biggest victim in these stats.
Business men
Graf artist
Kids
Suicides
Accidents
etc etc....
The MTA charts how many people have been killed by trains—42 in 1999
If this is the fact then that amounts to 3.5 deaths a month
1 death every 8.5 days.
42 deaths out of a billion passengers a year does not look significant,yet 1 out of every 8.5 days is a scary and high ratio.
Keep in mind that most of the deaths are suicides, which (1) are very difficult to prevent, and (2) likely would have occurred anyway even if there were no subway.
Stop putting Re in the front of all of your originating messages.
Yes Master, anything else??
You don't need that kind of attitude.
Re: is placed in the beginning of all responses. If you don't type it exactly (r, e, regardless of capitalization then a colon) there will just be two REs in every response. It looks stupid.
If you want to type re for some reason, then at least do it the way it's supposed to be so it's not doubled up. You've been told about this before, and not by me. Then you completely ignored the advice. At least now even with your obnoxious response you'll listen.
YOU are calling HIM obnoxious? You didn't even say 'please!'
-Hank
It's obnoxious when someone corrects someone else's mistake? Or are we supposed to let people just go on making the same mistakes over and over again?
As for the please, I can give that to you.
You don't need that kind of attitude.
Re: is placed in the beginning of all responses. If you don't type it exactly (r, e, regardless of capitalization then a colon) there will just be two REs in every response. It looks stupid.
If you want to type re for some reason, then at least do it the way it's supposed to be so it's not doubled up. You've been told about this before, and not by me. Then you completely ignored the advice. At least now even with your obnoxious response maybe you'll listen.
In addition to "looking strange," it also confuses those of us who don't expect a new thread to start that way.
Please, marty, find some other way to express your individuality.
KYW News Radio reported turmoil in TWU Local 234 that could interfere with upcoming negotiations with SEPTA. There’s been a “major blowup” between the local and the international, and accusations and denials of fiscal mismanagement. The international is considering taking over the local. “Traffic and transit on the two’s”.
The current "Journal of Public Transportation" (published by a think-tank at the University of South Florida) contains an article entitled "Influence of the Rail Program on Bus Transit in Los Angeles."
For the abstract, visit the Center for Urban Transportation Research (CUTR) at www.cutr.eng.usf.edu. The article presents and dispells six "myths" about the L.A. County MTA's rail system, which have been advanced by bus-only "advocates":
-----
Myth 1. Rail was built for, and is used by, suburban whites.
Reality: The rail system was built for, and is used overwhelmingly by, minority and transit-dependent riders. The proportion of MTA's minority ridership is 88% on bus and 84% on rail - the 4-point difference is statistically not signficant.
-----
Myth 2: The increases in MTA transit fares caused by the rail program have hurt the poorer and minority bus riders disproportionately.
Reality: In 1999 dollars, the average bus fare has changed very little since 1979 (the 1983-85 roll-back to 50 cents notwithstanding). While the base fare has increased, most riders take advantage of discounted passes and tokens instead of paying the base fare.
-----
Myth 3: The rail system has diverted needed financial resources from the bus system.
Reality: The financial needs of the bus system were not compromised be rail program and were being met well after they should have been reduced. Even when bus ridership was falling sharply, service levels were not cut AS SEVERELY, so that the number of empty seats increased.
-----
Myth 4: The diversion of money to rail has led to less bus service, falling ridership, and crowding of buses.
Reality: The overall quality of bus service increased with the rail program. Some of the "lost" bus-miles resulted from the spin-off of bus lines to Foothill Transit and LADOT in the 1990's.
-----
Myth 5: The rail system is underutilized, is not cost-effective, and takes more than its share of funding.
Reality: The rail system is well-used, is more cost-effecive than the bus system, and takes its fair share of subsidies. The Blue Line, which at 10 years is the oldest rail line in the region, attracts 59,000 daily riders, the most of any single rail line in the country. [Gotham's comment: shouldn't the author qualify that?!] The Green Line carries 25,000 riders each day after 4 years of operation...greater than the combined ridership of all buses on the El Monte busway after 25 years of that service. The Red Line, which has only begun to exert its potential since its June 1999 extension to Hollywood and Vine, carries 59,000 riders per day. [Gotham's comment: This was written before North Hollywood opened.] That the rail transit system, as skeletal as it is, carries 22.4% of the MTA's total passenger-miles is quite an accomplishment.
-----
Myth 6. The rail system is not convenient and is slower than the bus to use, and forcing a transfer is unfair.
Reality: The rail system is faster than takng the bus, even with a transfer. Empirical travel time "contests" using bus routes #2/3 (Sunset), #4 (Santa Monica), #14 (Beverly), and #20/21/22 (Wilshire) disproved that, even during midday hours, when buses can actually move into and out of downtown; even the worst case of 15 minutes to transfer to the train was made up by rail's greater speed.
-----
The author of this article is Richard Stanger, a consultant and former executive director of the Southern California Regional Rail Authority (MetroLink). Overall, it's interesting and well-researched, but it still won't end the debate.
59,000 is the most? Even if the researcher was referring to Light Rail wouldn't Boston still beat that?
[59.000 is the most? Even if the researcher was referring to Light Rail, wouldn't Boston still beat that?]
I would think so. Then again, I have no 1999 ridership stats on which to base a solid answer. LACMTA's Blue Line runs 22 miles between two downtowns (Los Angeles and Long Beach); then again, MBTA's Green Line has four branches, three of which have relatively closely-spaced stops in densely-populated neighborhoods.
For the record, I was only quoting from and paraphrasing the article, not vouching for it or the author.
>>but it still won't end the debate.<<
Particularly since the study ducks the major issues. Viz., the civil rights cases, IIRC was based on per rider cost differntial between bus service and SUBURBAN rail--not the Blue or Green lines. As to the Red--Now that more has opened, ridership is up--however the capial cost was huge. In any event the issus was between suburban riders and urban riders--not rail v. bus within town. And the 'color' of the suburban Metrolink riders I doubt to be 84 % ;minority'
All that said, IMHO the real issue is not how to divvy up an insufficient budget, but rather to force enough money out of other uses to field a serious service. The record of the various LA transit managements has not been exemplary. Some months back they were hauled in on contempt charges for failing to lkive up to the terms of the consent decree which they had signed. Instead of buying buses as they had agreed--they sent the money to a sister transit agency to finance more of the Blue Line. Stay tuned.
In case you didn't want to read the long post here are the questions from my trip.
What is that abandonned EL in the south of Chicago that passes over the PRR main and next to the CB&Q main. Its near the red line.
Why hasn't METRA installed overhead catenary shields on all the bridges over the Electric Division? I love the view, but itsn't METRA being a little dangerous?
What are all those stupid drawbridges for? Are they actually used? Is Chicago pretending to be a port or something, cause the nearest ocean in 100 miles away. They should leave the shipping to the costal professionals.
What is the point of those turnstyles on the electric div? They were all closed when I got there and ppl could walk through a gate. Furthermore the conductors check your tickets on the train.
Furthermore I think I listened to my scanner too much because now I like constantly hear that faint buzz of a voice comming in over the scanner, but when I pick it up nothing is there. Also normal background voices are starting to sound all staticy and scanner like. Is there something wrong w/ me and is this a common affliction amoung railfans?
I thought your 100 miles from an ocean statement was a typo. Did you copy and paste to repeat the typo or do you think Chicago is 100 miles from an ocean? I can't speak for Chicago, having visited once for 3 marvelous days, but there is major shipping on Lake Michigan. When I was taking videos of Amtrak and Metra trains going in and out of the west end of Union Station from my perch on a street going over the tracks and pretty much under the Loop, I saw boat movements in the river (or canal?) adjacent to the tracks.
I bet the drawbridge fans killfiled you.
Bob
Yes, you're right. It was suposted to read 1000.
Before the RRs, canals were the major method of shipping inland.
The Erie Canal (New York State Barge Canal), connecting the Hudson River with Lake Erie opened the Port of New York to the Great Lakes and what was then the American frontier. The Illinois and Michigan canal connected the South Branch of the Chicago River with the Des Plaines River (which is connected to the Mississippi by way of the Illinois) connected that further west.
What is that abandonned EL in the south of Chicago that passes over the PRR main and next to the CB&Q main. Its near the red line.
If we're thinking of the same el line, then what you saw was the Englewood branch of the Green Line as it passes over the Dan Ryan Expressway and then turns south and heads parallel to the expressway for a few blocks before turning west again. And it's still an active line, as much as the CTA would like to shut it down.
Why hasn't METRA installed overhead catenary shields on all the bridges over the Electric Division? I love the view, but itsn't METRA being a little dangerous?
To my knowledge, there hasn't been a major problem with people climbing over the bridges and onto the catenary wires. Metra isn't the one being dangerous if somebody decides to do it, though.
What are all those stupid drawbridges for? Are they actually used? Is Chicago pretending to be a port or something, cause the nearest ocean in 100 miles away. They should leave the shipping to the costal professionals.
Check your facts, and do a bit of reading up on your Chicago history. First, Chicago is actually about 1000 miles from the ocean as the crow flies. Second, Chicago doesn't need to pretend to be a major port city when it IS a major port city. That's the whole reason Chicago came into being as a major city; the city sits on a low continental divide between the Great Lakes and Mississippi River water systems, which were seperated only by a few miles of marsh before the construction of the Illinois and Michigan Canal which provided a water link between the New York port (via the Erie Canal) and the interior of the continent (via the I&M Canal). Agriculture and other goods were gathered from all over the entire western part of the country, sent to Chicago to be loaded onto frieghters, and then sent to New York for distribution all over the world. Virtually the same pattern continues today, except that most of the transporting is now done by rail. However, Chicago still rivals New York City in terms of shipping activity, and Chicago reigns as the world's busiest inland port for oceangoing vessels. With the completion of the Cal Sag Channel, the shipping activity shifted a few miles southward to the Calumet River, leaving the Chicago River mainly for pleasure boats.
And yes, the drawbridges still open very frequently, quite a spectacle to behold. More drawbridges are located in Chicago than in any other city on earth, and most of the drawbridges you saw downtown are of a bascule design developed in Chicago and known worldwide as a Chicago-style drawbridge. And we love our "stupid" drawbridges dearly, thank you very much.
What is the point of those turnstyles on the electric div? They were all closed when I got there and ppl could walk through a gate. Furthermore the conductors check your tickets on the train.
That's a common question, since the electric division is the only Metra line that has turnstiles. They are a vestige of the old Illinois Central days, and I suspect it's only a matter of time before they're eliminated.
-- David
Boston, MA
At around 9 A.M. this morning, I was at Kings Highway going northbound on an R46. We were being held in the station. I decided to switch cars. I got off the train... there it was... an R32 on the F Line heading toward Coney Island. I didn't have time to get the numbers. I had no paper or pen. I didn't even try to remember what the roll sign says. I was busy looking at the hold lights so I wouldn't miss my train while on the platform. All of a sudden, another F Train... this one R46 came in on the center track heading southbound. Well, I got on my train and left.
That's the...
running on...
's
witness accounts.
It would be great to know what the bottom roll sign said: F Queens Blvd/6th Ave/Culver or F Queens Blvd/6th Ave/Brooklyn. I suspect the first, but who knows?
I.I.N.M., the former (“Queens Blvd/6 Av/Culver”) would be it. Just like you would have:
B = “Washington Hts/6 Av/West End” or “6 Avenue/West End” (as was the case when said line was temporarily routed onto the 8th Avenue line north of 59th Street during a weekend either late last year or earlier this year)
D = “Concourse/6 Av/Brighton”
It would be interesting, I.M.H.O., to see a consist of R32’s on the F line, just for the you-know-what of it.
The R-32s and R-38s include the old BMT titles on their side route signs, which is a nice touch. So do the electronic signs on the R-44s and R-46s.
Did you see if it was marked as an F train?
Yes and it was in service too.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
Maybe it was just a re-routed train? Was there anything going on that would have caused such a diversion?
If it was rerouted, I doubt it that the T/O and C/R would take time to run through every car to change the destination signs.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
You got me, then.
Actually, I bet this is what happened:
Its Union Turnpike, the 6th E has gone by, no sign of an F. Problem at 5th ave switch (or somewhere on 6th ave, or the Culver) has been cleared, but the next F is a long way away. What's this, a bunch of E's headed our way? Tower orders a few (maybe 1 of every 3) up the Hillside line to help ease the crowd. Most of the trains come back as E's, but the gap has gotten so large that the only way it could possibly be sealed is with a few trains crossing over. So one or two probably actually became Fs, and when the first few Fs arrived, they went up the Archer to replace those Es.
This is based on an observation I once made during a situation very similar to the one I described, though I didn't stick around long enough to tell if any Es became Fs.
Whenever there is a delay to Jamaica bound E or F trains, Continental will reroute an R or G to the appropriate terminal to provide service.
OMG, I would love to see Brightliners on the F. Finally, a railfan window down the Culver line!!!!!!!!!!! Just like old days :)
I'd love to see the switching arrangement south of W. 4th St. Of course, there's always the C with R-32s.
I got my copy of Time mag today. While flipping through it, I noticed a few things. I've never seen this before. There is an ad for Kawasaki Heavy Industries. It's 2 pages before the page with the Winners and Losers. A few pages later, I see ANOTHER ad this time Alstom. As you may recall, Kawasaki Heavy Industries builds the R62s, R68As, and R142As. Alstom is the sub-contractor for the latter part of the R68 order. Any thoughts?
That's the...
running on...
's
discoveries.
Funny...
I just saw and ad for Bombardier in one of the mags just today (forgot which one), but they happened to be selling jet airplanes here.
Hmmmmmmmm........ wonder how the 30 day calendar works for those things.
Elias
If it doesn't you'll hear about more plane crashes. Forgive me, I'm only half joking.
See, they don't build them like they used to. Maybe somebody knows better than I, but were there any comparisons in the 20's, 30's or earlier between St. Louis, ACF, Pullman, Pressed Steel? Westinghouse vs. GE? Seemed everything worked and if it needed correction it ran for eons.
On Monday, August 28, 2000 I completed a twelve day trip to Chicago for the purpose of doing research for my work-in-progress, "Windy Rails: The Elevated Railroad and the Transformation of Chicago". While there I took over two hundred photos of the various "L" lines throughout the city and had the pleasure of meeting with the CTA Historian, its Chief Librarian, and Bruce Moffat, author of numerous books and articles about Chicago's rapid transit system. As previously noted, I spent a great deal of time riding and photographing the dilapidated Douglas "L".
Quite frankly, my conclusions about this line are not positive. In fact, IT IS A DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN! The structural supports are corroded beyond belief (I collected over seventy pounds of debris which had fallen into the alleys, some of which were ancient flanges connected to the main stringers and which weighed over twenty pounds apiece) and the structure noticably sagged whenever a train rolled past. On one occasion the motorman lost his mind and sent the train flying at more than four times the recommended 10 mph speed limit. As a result, our car swayed violently to the right (as this occured I felt the "L's" structure sink) and we came DAMN close to derailing and landing in somebody's back yard. Had he not immediately applied his brakes or had this occured just a few hundred yards down range at that curve just west of the 18th street station, then we would have flown off the tracks for sure.
I recognize the need for the affected communities to maintain this lifeline to the city and from an historical standpoint I would hate to see the Douglas "L" go, BUT GO IT MUST! Replace it if possible but regardless of the hardships its closing will cause, it must be shut down IMMEDIATELY or the Loop accident of February 1977 will pale by comparision. Let me stress that there are LIVES at stake, and that unless this line is closed we will be confronted with a tragedy that will haunt this city and transit lovers everywhere for generations.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
The Douglas branch of the Blue Line L is indeed in a very sad state, and is long overdue for a major reconstruction project. IIRC, funding for the project is already in place thanks to Gov. George Ryan's Illinois FIRST public works initiative a couple years ago, and I'd expect construction to start very soon. If they follow the same pattern as the recent Green Line reconstruction, then the entire line will probably be shut down for the duration of the project. Get your photos while you can; it won't be the same Douglas branch when they're done.
-- David
Boston, MA
What materials is the new green line made of?
Steel, same as before, but it's not rusted and most of the concrete footings have been replaced. The biggest difference is that most of the stations have been completely rebuilt from the ground up.
-- David
Boston, MA
I was quite pleased to ride the rstored Green Line, especially since it could have been demolished considering, especially on the south side, that there is alternate service not far away on the Dan Ryan. But I do wish they had restored the Jackson Park line all the way to where it used to run, and moreso that they had restored at least half of the old classic stations instead of replacing them with the institutional style ones on the line now. I find them imposing.
The Dougals L will continue to operate at slow speeds of 15-25 miles per hour until the end of this year.
At the beging of next year some time the CTA will begin reconstruction of the Douglas L. They haven't set an exact date, just said early next year.
They already have planned ( and maybe have started, I'm not sure) to purchase I believe 20 parcels of land next to the tracks, including some houses, abandoned pieces of land, and a few businesses. These spots will be used during construction to make it more convient to get equipment and stuff up and down from the structure.
The Ground level Stations at 54th & Kildare were planned out a couple years ago when they thought they would get funding for the project then. 54th will be replaced with one single island platform with full handicapped access to & from an elevated Station house above the tracks and platform, in the location where the current employee house is. Kildare will receive a full access ramp from the street to make it accessible and a wider platform as I understood from the press release.
The Station at Cicero Ave. was replaced in the 70's and is still in excellent condition, similar to Harlem or Cumberland Kennedy Stations with the open platform with no center supports. It will not be replaced.
The Elevated Stations are all rumored to be replaced with island platforms. All now are side platforms except for Central Park & Pulaski. Some of these like Central Park have new entrances and station housese, which will remain, others will be completely re-built. I would assume all will become handicapped accessible like the Green Line, due to federal regulations. Actually though, they let a few slide through on the green line without handicapped acess, but only a few. 18th & Polk, on the North-South portion of the line before it connects with the main line, were replaced some time in the '80's and will not be replaced as they are also still in excellent condition and fully handicapped accessible.
They are currently having meeting with the communities along the line to discuss which stations will remain and which will go. It does have a lot of stations compared to the Forest Park Branch and Green Line, which go over/under the same streets, just north of the Douglas Branch. The fact that it doesn't go as far as the other lines might keep some of these extra stations open though.
The only station change I have heard of is possibly to move Hoyne one block to the East with the main entrance on Damen and a secondary entrance on Hoyne. Damen is more of a Main St., more ridership and more bus connections.
The line will not shut down before next year, unless it falls down, I can guarantee you that. The Citizens from Cicero , Pilsen, and Little Village have filled out petitions with 900 ( I think) signatures and handed them over to the city & CTA last week to get them to restore week-end service one the Douglas Line.
As the CTA always is, it was firm in saying NO, they will reconsider and probably will restore the week-end service after the renovation.
The line will also remain open during the renovation, according to the CTA, any major work requiring train service to end will be done on the week-ends when it isn't in service.
This is all I have heard so far, I will keep you guys updated if I hear more.
BJ
PS: When will you be posting those (over 200 is it?) pictures of the L's???
The one and only good thing about the low ridership is the Park-n-Ride lot at the 54th Terminal in Cicero. The town has a a parking crunch in many spots, however, the lot is only for CTA Douglas/Cermak Blue Line Riders.
Thus, the lot is usually only filled with about 100 cars. I was just there yesterday and that was the case. It has a little over 300 spots total. When I ride tomorrow during the midday, I will have no problem parking.
Compared to The Forest Park Station, Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line, which has over 1,600 spots, which are usually all taken during the morning rush hour. You have to search hard when trying to park during the mid-day for an open spot from someone who left work early. The only time parking is easy there is the weekend. And it is free on Sunday compared to $1.50 on Mon-Sat.
It is going to stink when the CTA replaces many of the classic stations that exsist on this line during the renovation. Hopefully they will save a few things, we can only hope!! It will be fun again in a couple years when the trains reach 55 mph again. The Douglas Branch is built so close to so many home, zooming by at 55 again will be fun. People who recently purchased houses along the line with 15 mph operatin will be shocked when their house get shaked again every 10 minuted or so!!
BJ
Why were the R26/28/29/33/36 rebuilt as part of the current fleet and not the R17/21/22? They appeared the same and were about the same age. I'm sure we all would have preferred a little variety in storm doors and maybe we'd still have some old-fashioned straps.
Because the R17, 21 and 22 were single units, not married pairs
and could not be air conditioned.
And on top of that, the R17/21/22 cars (as well as the R12/14/15’s), to my understanding, were pretty well worn out.
Indeed they were. When I worked the A division I had a lot more bad trains than I did with the R1-9's. More bad ones than good. OTOH Pelham with only a few R17's mixed in with the present redbirds, and Flushing with all R36 were both pretty good equipment wise. But then the Flushing cars were better maintained so were the best on the IRT in the 70's when thins were bad.
According to New York City Subway Cars, virtually all of the single unit cars were "severely worn out" by the time the GOH program had started. I have no doubt they would have lasted longer had they been properly maintained.
The fiftieth anniversary of the delivery of Budd RDC’s to the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines will be celebrated on Saturday, October 21, 2000, on the Cape May Seashore Lines railroad. Details are being worked out.
The CMSL currently operates two of the former PRSL Budd cars in daily (until Labor Day, then weekends until Dec 23) tourist service between Cape May Court House and Cape May City (the southern end of NJ, well below the Mason-Dixon Line).
Bob
Where do the scrapped cars go? I can't imagine that the entire car is scrapped and all those parts are gone to waste, it's not economical. How much of a car is recycled? Recycled, in the sense the metal is melted down and made into nails. I'm not a metal expert, but could the carbon steel of a redbird be melted down and regular or stainless steel be made from it?
On this site, there are plenty of scrapyard pictures for you to look at. There are few reusable parts on a subway car. Air compressor pumps may be salvagable but the electronics might not. There is plenty of copper contactors and wiring associated with the traction motors and propulsion boxes that would be stripped for metal. I'd guess the 2 most common steel parts that would be saved are builder's plates and number boards.
What about doors? AFAIK, R26 7773 is the only one that has an R22 end door, and I think I remember riding in a car that R15-style doors when I was young.
Will there be roll signs available for sale from the soon to be scrapped redbird cars? IF yes, from whom and where can we obtain the signs?
R26 7821 also has an R22 end door (7773 has two) and we think there's one more. As for the story of my handle, I may be only 16, but have a fondness for the older equipment, and these two cars are the closest I've ever been in those cars (in service), so R22 is the furthest back I can go. Yet, I love the R142/R142A, go figure.
7875 also has a R-21/22 storm door.
The R-142A will have the same numbers as the R-21/22, mayhaps this is the reason?
The R-15s and R-11s had two circular windows, one on top of the other, on each side door leaf. Both also had round porthole windows on their storm doors, something the R-16s and R-17s also had.
I've brought this up before, and no one else has been able to confirm this, but I remember seeing some R-10s with twin circular windows on their side doors. They were all seen on the A, and had the late 60s teal-and-white paint job.
I put a picture of the R10 on Dave's R10 site, taken some eleven years ago.
Where can it be seen?
Check recent images.
Here she was
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r10/r10-3141c.jpg
That reminds me of another thing that, until now, was probably salvaged (in limited numbers). STRAPS! Various redbirds are running around with one or two R-17 and R-21 straps. 8703 and 8793 are two.
OK, it's time to put on the Thinking Caps, get out the books, reference material, roster sheets, and anything else that gets the answer.
Here's the question: What museum has the only example of this type of PCC car, and what is its number and year built and what company orginally bought it?
Answer next Saturday, September 2, 2000
I may be wrong but is car # 1053 built by the St Louis Car Co. built in 1935 and ran for the Capital/DC transit till 1959 and is currently at the National Capitol Trolley Museum?
I feel I may be wrong because this car is not considered a "real" PCC because of its boxy front end.
On a related topic how is beloved # 7407 one of my favorite PCC's holding up? Is it still on the pit?
Brooklyn 1000, built by Clark Equipment in 1936, at the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston. The only one built by Clark and the only one with an aluminum body.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right, but what I want is the only car of it's type that survived the others being scrapped.
1000 is an oddball, but it was the only car by Clark and the only of its kind. No others were ever built.
I don't know for a fact but I'll bite on the Boston double ended ex Texas cars? For all I know they're still running them. Or one of the Chicago 50 foot PCC's?
The ex-DR&T cars are gone, except for the few that the T converted to work equipment and the ones that went to Seashore and ShoreLine. Strangely, the McKinney Ave. folks have never tried to pry one out of Seashore, since they are the Dallas streetcar folks. They picked up two of the TTC 4600's several years ago for use.
The CSL/CTA PCC's could qualify as well, only one air and one all-electric survived to go to IRM.
The Dallas cars could qualify, but I'm looking for the ONLY of its type in the Entire World.
Then I submit DCT 1512nee Caital Transit 1512 only AC equipped PCC in transit service in 50's resident I believe at Nat Cap Hist Musem in Wheaton
Wrong I Am, and typos.
Fraid so, the Sightseer was finally delivered to NCTM, only to be destroyed by a vandal set fire on September 11, 1970. The only things not destroued were its trucks, which first went to the Baltimore Streetcar Museum and were later returned to NCTM for use. The car was the only one to still have any insurance value, and that money enabled NCTM to build an additional car house.
Chicago's Blue Goose #4021 could qualify, being the sole survivor of the prewar PCC fleet. It was kept under wraps for years by CTA in their private collection until they turned it over to IRM. The remaining 82 Blue Geese were scrapped after their final runs in 1956.
Green Hornet 4391 is the only postwar Chicago PCC to survive intact. 570 of its sister units donated their parts for the 6000-series L fleet. Several of those car sets survive in museums.
Maybe I've missed a post or two but are you talking of Brooklyn #1001 which is now up in Kingston?
Nope. 1000 (not 1001) is a one of a kind, I'm looking for the sole survivor of a particular PCC type by a particular carbuilder.
Well, St. Louis built most of the PCCs. Pullman built quite a few as well. Chicago's Green Hornets were split almost right down the middle - 290 by St. Louis including 4391, 310 by Pullman.
1001 is at Shoreline.
OK, here's the answer I was looking for:
PCC Car 7407, part of the BSM Collection. The car was built by the Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company of Worcester, MA for the Baltimore Transit Company in 1944. The car became, on November 3, 1963 at 6:34 AM, the last streetcar to operate on Baltimore Transit's track.
7407 is a standard, 46 foot air-electric PCC car. Pullman built 208 such cars between 1939 and 1944 for Baltimore Transit, and one demonstrator for Cincinatti Street Railway in 1939, for a total of 209. All were scrapped, except for 7407.
7407 is the ONLY standard 46 foot Pullman built air-electric PCC remaining in the WORLD!!
The remaining Boston PCC's do not qualify, as while 46 foot air-electrics, they are non-standard due to the right side center door being one window farther back and the left side having a center door. The MG set is relocated behind the left center door, and the underfloor control cabinets are not in the standard configuration due to the stepwell for the left door.
Thanks to the FEW who participated.