Now that I've gotten you're attention, forever means a week.
I will be posting next saturday and will attend that chat (that's why I rescheduled this week's to tonight).
Now before you break out the bottles of champagne and other celebratory materials, I might be reading (or even posting) during the week anyway, probably at least once I'll check to see anything interesting.
And I'll be checking my e-mail.
Riding the E train this past Wednesday, I noticed some work going on in the southbound (westbound) tunnel between 53rd St / 5th Ave & 53rd St / 7th Ave. Whatever was being erected on both sides of the tunnel had green posterboard signs with the words "do not touch" hand written. What is going on in that area that "can't be touched"? Electrical conduit work?
Second, some posters mentioned that the lower level of 42nd St / 8th Ave was "severed" from the rest of the IND 8th Ave subway. I tried to pay close attention looking at the connection to the lower level, and, to me at least, the switch still looked like it was in, and the track still appeared to be in place. So if this track connection was severed, where was the cut made? In the station itself?
--Mark
Tomorrow, you might get a closer look, the E trains will continue straight on that switch for 50 more feet before curving left onto the 8th ave express. The signal that is almost always RED - RED will display Green - Yellow. The normally Green-Yellow signal will show Green - Green. All in all, a good time for signal photos.
It sounds as if the access switch to the southbound express track will remain in place no matter what. If the connection to the lower level is severed at that point, that particular switch whose interlocking signal is normally red over red could be removed.
Mark, I believe it's been severed at the southern end. If I remember an earlier post correctly, the frog was showing excessive wear and was replaced with straight rail, although the remainder of the switch may still be intact.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be back on the line tomorrow (July 3rd) so I'll try to get a better look.
Thanks.
--Mark
Dandy indeed that the High-V's and Low-V's were in a few movies. The best of all even if a boring show was the FBI Story with James Stewart with many good Low-V scenes, mostly on Jerome. I'm positive the onboard scene was studio stuff [background lights in tunnels: they had dim incandescents then];House on 92 St had a few around 125-Broadway; Luck of the Irish, a very cute story by the way; and I'm almost sure Sorry, Wrong Number had a few, haven't seen it in a while. Towards the end there was a quote "when the train goes over the bridge",with the Queensboro in the background. Indeed there was a set of lights that looked like a train..too far away to see other than the lights: one thing though, the movie was made in l947 and the last train on that bridge was in l942.
Another place where the IRT is seen, although in altered form:
---The 1930's Max Fleischer cartoons!
In particular: a Betty Boop cartoon entitled "Riding The Rails" (1938), in which Betty's dog Pudgy follows her to work on the IRT. The cast-iron and glass kiosks, the shrill whistles, and what looks like Lo-V's (or are they Hi-V's?)are prominently featured. It was easy for the Fleischer animators to find the models: when this cartoon was in production (in 1937), the Fleischer studio was located in the Studebaker Building just north of Times Square.
>>> The best of all even if a boring show was the FBI Story with James Stewart with many good Low-V scenes, mostly on Jerome. I'm positive the onboard scene was studio stuff
Ed;
I wrote the review of "The FBI Story" located in the bibliography section of this website.
NYC SUBWAY BIBLIOGRAPHY
As noted therein, there was less than 5 minutes of subway footage which came after 133 minutes of a 149 minute film, but a true subway buff would do well to rent the tape just to see those five minutes.
I do think the interior shot of the Low-V is authentic although it was enhanced by movie lighting, and probably the train was stationary when the interior close up was shot, with movie magic providing the moving tunnel lights.
Tom
The link in my previous post should have been:
Box Office Films, Documentaries & Television Episodes
Tom
When I got home last night I flipped on the box and there's "Meteor", the 1979 Sean Connery/Karl Malden destructo-fest. Toward the end, they're trapped in a NYC subway tunnel, and Connery finds an old subway car. Looks pretty realistic too, with gray exterior, blue stripe, blue-gray interior with pink benches. Which R- would that be?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sounds like an R-26/28 or R-27/30 unit, going by the pink benches. Of course, by 1979 all those cars had gotten the green-and-gray interior treatment, so the unit in question may have been from the subway museum, if it wasn't a Hollywood sound stage mock-up.
hello, there; Can anyone answer why the M is "cut back to Chambers St., while the J is "extended" to Broad St. (for 7/1 to 7/3)?
Because of a GO, the M cannot use Myrtle Ave. as it's southern terminal. However, this holiday weekend, the trackwork being done at the Myrtle Ave. junction has been cancelled. I believe that the plan you describe is the only realistic way to provide normal service while the switch being replaced is still unfinished.
Reminds me of the old Myrtle/Chambers service back when the lower portion of the Myrtle Ave. El was still around. "You take the wooden train (Q's) to downtown Brooklyn and the steel train (Standards) to Manhattan"
The J goes to Broad St. and the M doesn't go that far because, most likely, the Broad St. Station isn't that heavily used in midday and it also allows the two trains to not have to be on a perfectly synchronized schedule when they turn around in Manhattan. And most people coming from Williamsburg change at Essex St. for the F train for the West Side or Chambers St. for the 4/5/6 for the East Side anyway.
Now, I really wish they'd build a set of switch tracks at 7th Avenue on the F line so G trains could go to 7th Avenue and allow an easy transfer from the 4th Avenue subway to the G. Currently it misses by one measly stop.
I agree with you on the G line. Better yet why not extend it to Church Ave. Which is a very crowded station.
Amtrak announced that Acela testing resumed this week between Newark and Washington and will test in New England next week. Alstom and Bombardier suggested using longer bolts in the truck assemblies and the FRA agreed.
http://www.amtrak.com/news/archive/atk0078.html
Because N and R trains are terminating at 42st Times Square, the BS will be unable to run this weekend. The B will compensate for the lost service by running to 21st Queensbridge. This has not happened since the Puerto Rican day parade, hopefully Queensbridge riders will be able to adjust to the temporary service change. The MTA apologizes for this oversight in their planning of the N/R G.O., and promises that this will not happen again for at least 2 more months.
All those recent threads about R9's made me remember Nedick's. They used to be located inside subway stations. They had really tasty hot dogs, which I think rivaled Nathan's in their own way. Since the dogs were cooked so close to the tracks and were permeated with all the right "scents", it was the next best thing to eating an R9 -- They also had a fruit drink called an "orange julius", which was a real New York food, like an egg cream.
Wasn't there one in the 14th St. & 8th Ave. Station on the mezzanine between the A/C/E and L?
You talk as if Nedicks was history, are they a thing of the past like Horn & Hardarts?
Yes, they are from what I know. They have passed out of existence just like Reid's, Horton's, and Meadow Gold Ice Cream----and, of course, LaRosa Spaghetti products, and the candy store of yore.
You're further away from the city than I am, but at least you get back to visit once in a while.
This business about the candy stores has come up before, and I still have a hard time believing it. There used to be one at the foot of every el station stairs. I worked in one part time in the late 1940's and early 1950's. I wonder where people go to buy their newspapers, magazines, tobacco etc. We always used to buy our "spaldeens" in a local candy store too!
Candy stores like penny vending machines and five and dime stores were all defeated by rising costs, particularly labor v. the small cost of the items sold. In some neighborhoods they were hastened on their way by OTB and state run lotteries.
BTW I never saw NYC style candy stores outside of the New York City area. When I first came to California, I was surprised to see liquor stores that doubled as neighborhood mini grocery stores and carrying all the things you would find in a New York candy store.
I was too young to drink when I left New York, but I do remember there were package liquor stores. Did they have minimum age limits to enter? Were they limited in what they could sell? If so, that and the density of the neighborhoods could explain why there were candy stores in New York in the first place. Where was package liquor sold before prohibition? Were candy stores former package liquor outlets before prohibition?
When I moved to Ohio in 1948, I found that the things you could buy in a candy store were in corner drug stores which featured a pharmacist, a soda fountain, and a counter where candy, tobacco, and newspapers were sold, or in neighborhood stores which sold bread, milk, and limited canned goods. Ohio restricted (and may still restrict) sales of package liquor to state run outlets, so there were no traditional liquor stores there.
Tom
I worked part time in a candy store at the foot of the stairs to the Crescent St Station in Brooklyn in the late 1940's and early 1950's. I had the feeling that their basic business was to sell the latest editions of the newspapers. Most candy stores had a homemade stand out front with the papers on it.
Inside were more newspapers, magazines, candy bars(5 cents), tobacco, small toys, paperbacks(25 cents), comic books(10 cents) and greeting cards.
Most candy stores also had a soda fountain with six or eight stools.
It seemed like everyone who got on or off the el would stop at the candy store for something.
Our busiest time of day was 9PM at night when people would gather outside the store to wait for the "pinks", which were the early editions of the next days NY Daily News and the NY Mirror. Sometimes there would be as many as a dozen people waiting for the papers to arrive.
Liquor stores were just that, selling only wine and liquor, and only to adults. They were privately owned. I delivered the Long Island Press, and on Friday night after collections, I would stop at a liquor store on Ridgewood Ave near Logan St, and they were always glad to exchange my nickels, dimes and quarters for paper money. They were always glad to see me, but they would not sell me a bottle for my Dad's Christmas present because of my age.
When I moved here to Pennsylvania forty plus years ago, we had a store here that they called a news agency. It was very similar to New York's candy store except that they very seldom had a soda fountain. News agencies seem to have gotten harder and harder to find today, although there are still some around.
Liquor stores here are called "state stores" because they are run by the state, and sell only wine and liquor to adults. Except for the state control, they seem to be run just like the privately owned liquor stores in New York fifty years ago.
I KNOW this VERY off-topic, BUT... where I live is about 20 miles from the NY-NJ-PA 'Tri-State' corner [i.e. Port Jervis, Matamoris PA, Sussex Co NJ], so it is interesting how the various liquor laws, etc come into play. In NY[as has been stated before], liquor stores are privately owned, sell only hard liquor and wine, and are CLOSED on Sunday [even if its New Year's Eve..]. In PA, the 'state stores' are [of course..]state owned, sell hard liquor and wine,are opened VERY limited hours. Beverage stores are only allowed to sell warm beer by the case, and I believe that regular grocery stores cannot sell beer at all.....In NJ, the liquor stores sell ALL alcoholic beverages, and are OPEN on Sunday...[grocery stores cant sell beer in NJ...] I also believe that non-grocery beverage stores can sell [warm] beer in NJ also... [also not to forget NY's weird 'no beer before noon on a Sunday' law...]BTW- around this area, your neighborhood 'candy store' was generally known as a 'confectionary'...I kid you not....[usually a 'confectionary' didn't have a deli, but did have a small counter for sodas,etc, just like a NYC 'candy store'..and just like the candy store is a dying breed...
[I KNOW this VERY off-topic, BUT... where I live is about 20 miles from the NY-NJ-PA 'Tri-State' corner [i.e. Port Jervis, Matamoris PA, Sussex Co NJ], so it is interesting how the various liquor laws, etc come into play. In NY[as has been stated before], liquor stores are privately owned, sell only hard liquor and wine, and are CLOSED on Sunday [even if its New Year's Eve..]. In PA, the 'state stores' are [of course..]state owned, sell hard liquor and wine,are opened VERY
limited hours. Beverage stores are only allowed to sell warm beer by the case, and I believe that regular grocery stores cannot sell beer at all.....In NJ, the liquor stores sell ALL alcoholic beverages,
and are OPEN on Sunday...[grocery stores cant sell beer in NJ...] I also believe that non-grocery beverage stores can sell [warm] beer in NJ also... [also not to forget NY's weird 'no beer before noon on a Sunday' law...]]
To add Connecticut to the mix:
Food stores can sell beer only. No warm or cold restrictions. Liquor (or "package") stores are privately owned, very numerous (as of a few years ago, Connecticut had more liquor stores than Texas), and in most cases rather small. They can sell beer in addition to wine and hard liquor. Sale hour restrictions apply to all types of alcoholic beverages and to both food and liquor stores. No sales are allowed after 8 pm or all day on Sunday. Most supermarkets use tarps to cover the beer shelves during the no-sale hours.
Where Connecticut is really strict is with regard to bar-closing hours. IIRC, closing time is 1 am, but 2 am on Saturday and Sunday mornings. That doesn't mean that last call is at those times. No, when 1 or 2 rolls around, all drinks have to be off the tables and bars. Most places therefore announce last call at least 45 minutes before the closing time.
Okay, I guess it is time I jumped in on this one. We own what is most likely the last "candy store" in New Jersey. Official it's Gary's Confectionery (that's with an e). What we sell has changed quite a bit through the years from when my parents bought it in 1949. We no longer sell toys, the fountain is no longer connected, and health and beauty aids are fading. We do not cook or make sandwiches. We still have a counter with four bar stools in place of the orginal seven counter stools. What we do sell are newspapers, magazines, snacks, hot and cold drinks, cigarettes, and various other odds and ends.
>>> Our busiest time of day was 9PM at night when people would gather outside the store to wait for the "pinks", <<<
This more than anything points to the reason for the demise of the candy store. With most people getting the news from TV, there is no demand for the early edition of the newspapers, and newspaper reading in general has declined.
Tom
There are still a few around but I didn't see any with the traditional fountain. I bought tobacco at one on Westchester Square-Bronx and there was such a store right by the steps at Crescent St. station on the J. when I visited the old Brooklyn neighborhood.
It sounds like you saw the one on the south side of Fulton St, which was right at the foot of the el stairs. I worked at the one on the north side of the street, which was two stores west of the el stairs.
In all the years since I have been there they could have changed the stores a dozen times, in fact they could have even moved the el stairs.
I was told by the owner of a former candy store with a fountain on Kings Hwy and E 18, That the city put in very strict Health Laws for open ice cream, soda fountains, etc. It was easier and cheaper to sell pre packaged ice cream and soda in the stores, then getting health and resturaunt licenses. Nedicks, I used to love the one just outside Macy s on 34th and Bdwy. the ones in Penn and GCT were great too. Asd to Liquor storse. Until about 15-20 years ago, all liquor in Calif was sold at Fair Trade Prices, meaning from the largest Super Market to the smallest Mom/Pop Store sold it at the same price. Then the State dropped the fair trade. Now you can buy liquor and shop around. Usually the Small local Liquor Store has the cheaper stuff. If you want a better brand, usually the Super Market or Gourmet Liquor Store, or Chain Drug Store had .it.
>>>Nedicks, I used to love the one just outside Macy s on 34th and Bdwy.<<<
This location is now a Sunglass Hut, ironically there will be a Burger King opening in that building in the near future. It will be at the Subway Level with a separate entrance from the street.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was told by the owner of a former candy store with a fountain on Kings Hwy and E 18, That the city put in very strict Health Laws for open ice cream, soda fountains, etc. It was easier and cheaper to sell pre packaged ice cream and soda in the stores, then getting health and resturaunt licenses. Nedicks, I used to love the one just outside Macy s on 34th and Bdwy. the ones in Penn and GCT were great too. Asd to Liquor storse. Until about 15-20 years ago, all liquor in Calif was sold at Fair Trade Prices, meaning from the largest Super Market to the smallest Mom/Pop Store sold it at the same price. Then the State dropped the fair trade. Now you can buy liquor and shop around. Usually the Small local Liquor Store has the cheaper stuff. If you want a better brand, usually the Super Market or Gourmet Liquor Store, or Chain Drug Store had .it.
Fred, Meadow Gold Ice Cream Still exists in many place. I have 2 1/2 gallons in my freezer at home. I found Meadow Gold not only in Hawaii, but other places across the country. By the way, please e mail me something, I sent you a e mail but it came back.
Horn and Hardock Company still exist. Whenever you see a Burger King in Manhatte, chances are that the the franchise owner is Horn and Hardock
Horn and Hardart closed all of thier Burger King franchises in Manhattan about 8 yrs ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bob,
Yes - there was a Nedick's at that location. During the summers of 1978 and 1979, I worked as a bank teller at the Manufacturers Hanover branch, on the corner of 14th and 8th. Besides eating at that Nedick's on occasion, I can remember one of their employees coming into the bank to get rolls of coins.
Tony
07/02/2000
Does anybody remember the Nedicks"s at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn? Yes! The Transit Museum, it was there for short while by the R-42 front theatre. Only grilled hot dogs and orange drink was sold if my memory serves me right. Great place for a bite before reboarding the Nostalgia Special to the Rockaways (circa 1976-80?)
Bill "Newkirk"
I do! Almost as weird when Nathan's put units inside CALDOR stores, of all things- it was absolutely STRANGE to go in a Caldors up in Rochester, and have Nathans...
07/03/2000
Lou,
Out here in the Copiague Home Depot there is a Nathan's. Great for chowing down before buying 2 X 4's !!
Bill "Newkirk"
There's one in the Elmont Home Depot, too.
They have them in many Home Depots. Like Flushing and Gowanus.
Whereabouts on the mezzanine was it? I used to transfer from the A to the Canarsie every Saturday for three years between 1967 and 1970 and don't remember seeing it. Of course, if it was at the northern end, that would explain everything - all I ever saw was the southern end of the mezzanine.
I believe one of the last two was at Penn Station (at one time there were tow there). Frequently I had breakfest there (egg sandwich) or supper after OT (two dogs). Now the spot has a Micky Ds.
Mr t__:^)
Orange Julius was a separate franchise. So many NYC franchises have gone...Child's, Nedicks as well. The Hojo in Times Square is on borrowed time, if it isn't gone already. Are Dairy Queens still around?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nedicks is gone? What's this world coming to? Well at least when I return to the city I'll get to savor the unique flavor of Ruppert's Knickerbocker beer and vote for Miss Rheingold.
Tom
How about the Automat, Chock Full O'Nuts? My beer was Ballantine. Now if you could only ride the High-V's on Broadway again. Wish I could.
<< Nedicks is gone? What's this world coming to? >>
At least there's still Carvel ice cream, the best soft serve in the world.
Glad to hear they are still around. We had 'em in southern California years ago, but all five locations that I knew of disappeared around 13 years ago.
Even though I'm not a salsa fan, and the record store in the Times Square station dealt with salsa mostly, I miss seeing the store when I pass through. There's a series of CDs based on the music sold at Times Square Records...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I miss that store as well...I'm in Norfolk, Virgina now and we have only one Carvel for at least 20 miles around...Dairy Queen here is doing good in the tourist areas (Virginia Beach) but we have at least one Friendly's here...I had a sabrett hot dog here today and that's as close to New York I can get here for the time being.
In my youth there was a Times Sq. records, indeed in the Times Square station...stairway smack in the center on 42 st. He [Irving Rose] later moved to the 42nd/6th station. It specialized in pre-Beatles, pre- soul and pre-hard rock music.. rock & roll and rhythm and blues mostly of the 50's ...any chance this is the same store or is that indeed from the age of dinosaurs [like me]. That was great music.
07/03/2000
[In my youth there was a Times Sq. records, indeed in the Times Square station...stairway smack in the center on 42 st. He [Irving Rose] later moved to the 42nd/6th station]
I remember a record store in the mezzanine of the 42nd St and 6th Ave. station entrance. It was called "Downstairs Records". They moved after closure to several locations and are now located "upstairs" at 1026 6th Avenue in the upper West 30's.
Bill "Newkirk"
There are still hundreds or Dairy Queens left in this world, and HoJos too
I don't think there are as many HoJos as there used to be. There aren't any left in Denver, anyway. Heck, 30 years ago, we always ate there while on vacation. I remember one HoJos in particular on 6th Ave. by Rockefeller Center. We ate there a few times right after moving to New Jersey, and it was there on April 30, 1967 that my father suggested taking the subway to Coney Island after I indicated I'd like to go somewhere by that mode of transportation. And so we did...
There was an article in the Asbury Park Press within the past few days which said that there were either 27 or 29 (I don't remember which) left in the country. One (the only one left in New Jersey) is in Asbury Park.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[There was an article in the Asbury Park Press within the past few days which said that there were either 27 or 29 (I don't remember which) left in the country. One (the only one left in New Jersey) is
in Asbury Park.]
Wow. I didn't think there was _anything_ left standing in Asbury Park!
Not much is. This one's in a rather rundown hotel quite close to the waterfront.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Orange Julius is still around - seen it in a couple of malls in [new] Jersey.
Dairy Queen is still around also.
We have a Dairy Queen/Orange Julius at my Exton Mall which is 30
miles west of center city Phila. I really have to try an Orange Julius
My friend says they are very good.
uh...it IS kinda of an aquired taste, actually....
They even have a OJ in China Town(People s Park) in Singapore, along with a Dennys. By the way. The largest volumne McDonalds in the world is in Singapore
There's an Orange Julius in Queens Center Mall.
What IS an Orange Julius anyway? Never had one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Orange Julius is a kinda funny tasting orange drink that they make up fresh when you order it....don't ask what is in it though....Actually its refreshing in a different kinda way...Haven't had one in a long,long time though...
Kevin;
Orange Julius started in Southern California in stands similar to the old Nedicks selling their orange drink and hot dogs.
The drink itself was orange juice with crushed ice and a secret ingredient powder (which was probably mostly sugar) mixed in a blender. Later they added other fruits such as strawberry, banana, berries, etc. Originally they used fresh orange juice (when oranges were grown all over Southern California), now they start with concentrates for all the flavors. Similar tasting drinks are sold under the name "Orange Whip".
They worked through a franchise system which eventually went nationwide. In the 70's they were at a competitive disadvantage as many fast food chains expanded and had more extensive menu's. They lost all quality control of the franchisees and with regards to the hot dogs sold, some were good while others were terrible.
Now hardly any free standing Orange Julius stands can be found. Most of them are located in Mall food courts, and the price of the drink has soared from 20% over a typical soft drink to the $2.35 to $2.50 range. The flavor is no where near as good as the originals.
Tom
DQs are getting rarer and rarer though,especially in the Northeast, where high property costs make it real hard to sell something that most people want only 6-7 months out of the year...Also DQ is notorious in the industry for being real overlords with their franchisees, and a lot of them give up their franchises to sell ice cream without the licensing fees...
There is one of each within walking distance of my house.
Dairy Queen is everywhere in the midwest and now in southern California.
My favorite re-fueling stop was the Nedicks on the mezz. level of the Roosevelt Avenue Station. I could conveniently hit it before continuing on to Union Turnpike. This would fortify me for the 1/2 hour trip on the Q-44A on my daily trek from Brooklyn Tech.
I had a Nedicks near where I lives, over on 23rd Street and First Ave. It's now a donut shop/coffee shop, which isn't bad, but it's not Nedicks.
And the hot dog with the orange soda was great.
Supposedly, "Five Alive" tastes just like Nedick's soda. (I'm not sure; I never tried Nedick's but my dad can't eat a hot dog without it)
I remember Nedicks had the best Orange Soda, Very little carbonation, and they had it in bottles too. Dairy Queen was found in Tel Aviv when I was there in May, also BK, Pizza Hut and McDees. Can you imagine Kosher Meat McDees. Not Meat was sold at the Dairy Queen, only ice cream
Dairy Queen is headquartered in Minnesota, so it would make sense they ere in the Midwest. But because they tend not to pre-cook their food and leave it under a heat lamp, they have slower service than other fast food places, which makes them more suitable for suburban and rural locations.
Dairy Queen is simply thriving here in Pennsylvania. I even saw one way down on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. It was either in Avon or Buxton. That is an area where you just don't see national store names such as Wendy's, McDonalds or Arby's!
[The Hojo in Times Square is on borrowed time, if it isn't gone already]
HoJo was still in operation three months ago, March, 00. Walked by it many a time. Still open 24/7. Still had the same greasy windows that I remember from the 70s. Probably the same everyting else, too. The place is a like a time capsule. (IIRC, they did have a kitchen fire about 10 ? years ago; maybe the back of house equipment is newer.)
Today's Washington Post reports just 29 are left in operation.
Did they say they were free standing HoJo There are still some in their hotels, did they include those?
Free Standing Units
Nedicks had it all over nathans. They had 2 gimmicks that set them apart. The toasted bread that held the franks was unique to nedicks as was their brand of mustard. The nedicks orange drink was also memorable.
My sentiments exactly!
I think Nedick's disappeared around 1980 or maybe even earlier than that.
They not only had subway station locations, but a few street-front stores as well. We used to live just off Fordham Road and Kingsbridge, and there was one on the south side of Fordham at Tiebout Avenue.
there was in penn station next to the pizza shop.(in the main waiting area).
There was also one in Grand Central Terminal -- hard to describe where, but it was in a walkway that went to the east side of the building, south of the bumpers on the upper level.
Ever heard this "Reservations for two at the Orange Room" ?
Mr t__:^)
I have always thought that H&H [with a bit of jazzing up tech-wise] would play real well nowadays...Instead of coins...you would buy from a machine H&H debit cards, which you stick in a a slot for your food. This would VERY profitable, cause either A) You would make a return visit to use up your balance on your card [and of course, spending more for another card..]; OR B) It wouldn't get used at all, that then being a TON of profit.. It CERTAINLY would be faster than waiting INTERMINABLY in the lines they have these days at the various burger/chicken/whatever joints [would cut down on the help needed too....]
lou... a lot of food in the automats came from the steam tables, where you had to wait in line for food... the coin slots were mostly for pies and cakes, coffee, rolls, and sandwiches... as a kid i was always afraid that as i was taking food out of window, the people working behind the machine would spin the thing around and take my hand with it... i miss the automats...i once had a list of all the automats in the city... also the first time i was in philadelphia, i was surprised to see automats all over the place... do you remember the announcer who did the commercials for the automat?
>>> as a kid i was always afraid that as i was taking food out of window, the people working behind the machine would spin the thing around and take my hand with it <<<
Paul;
I had the same fear of losing a hand when dining at the automat. When those shelves spun it was really sudden. I suppose it was under human control with the person controlling it able to tell that no coins were currently inserted, but it really seemed from the outside to happen at random times.
The big thing then was the technology of putting in a coin or coins and getting food out. Now that we have food vending machines all over the place it would not be such a big draw.
Tom
Ed Heherily and the Childrens Hour on Channel 4 Sunday AM 9-10AM sponsered vy Horn and Harduct. They also had take out baked goods in the grocery stores, and theie Corp Office was in Philly not NYC
Is this the most frequent off topic thread or what? What is it with you guys and NY cafeterias? :)
Dave;
Give us a break, we used to get there on the subway. :-)
Tom
And we need to fuel up before, during and after an intense day of railfanning!!
The first automat was at 11th and Walnut in Philadelphia. It was a Depression-era invention so people could get a cheap meal without leaving a tip or interfacing with people who would see how poor you were. And the MFSE is only two blocks from that corner (required subway connection in post). I actually ate there in the late 1960s right before it closed. BTW, an entire wall of automat doors has been moved intact to the first floor of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History in Washington.
Quick Snack at the Times Square one when transfering from the IRT to the BMT.
I fueled up numerous times in and through the mid/late 1960s and 1970-1971 at the H&H in Jay Street and Fulton Street, Brooklyn. I was saddened to see it close.
Isn't there ONE H&H left somewhere in NYC?
wayne
[Isn't there ONE H&H left somewhere in NYC?]
A search on switchboard.com turned up
Horn & Hardart Dine-O-Mat
1 University Pl
New York, NY 10003-4516
Would that be in Union Square or at the Greenwich Village end of the street?
wayne
[Would that be in Union Square or at the Greenwich Village end of the street?]
The Village.
Bob
07/03/2000
I guess if the Horn & Hardart "Automat" makes a comeback, those new dollar coins would fit in just fine.
Bill "Newkirk"
07/03/2000
Dave,
Every once and a while us middle agers go off on a tangent and talk about food. Observe:
When we're young, we talk about sex.
When we're middle age, we talk about food.
When we're eldery, we talk about the weather.
When Sea Beach Fred posts here, he talks about the Sea Beach Line !!!
NUFF SAID ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Eating a R-9!!??
Thats the funniest thing I ever heard!
Sounds like something a few members at the Shoreline Trolley museum would do if they could!
By lunch time Sunday Stef had a lot of Red Bird paint on the floor, but Doug the BMT man & I stuck to our dinner sandwiches without adding any R-17 flavoring.
Mr t__Ding Ding
For those Nedicks fans out there, I spotted a coffee cup on eBay today... it came up on a search for "subway", but I'm sure you could find it under Nedicks if you want to see it. I know nothing about it otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the age of 79 Actor Walter Matthau died eariler today of a heart attack. As we all know Mr. Matthau stared in (my favorate movie) "The Taking of Pelham, One, Two, Three" and other movies, such as, "The Odd Couple" and "I'm Not Rappaport"
Hollywood and subfans has lost a great actor.
The subway in Manhattan for the most part is in the best shape compared to the other boroughs with subway service.
The stations on the Queens Blvd line have bags of garbage piled up at the end of the station which attracts rats to the platform. Also alot of them have dim lights, Grand ave-Newton comes to mind.
Also some parts of the 7 aren't in great shape, like Queensboro plaza.
Manhattan subway stations seem to have more exits and are cleaner. Perhaps that is because they are busier and handle more people.
Also socio-economic conditions seem to play a role, since Manhattan has alot more places for employment, attractions, and things to see and do than Queens. Queens has especially gone downhill lately more than any other borough.
The 7 train used to be the pride of the IRT, and now it is obviously not the "premier" line it used to be. Some fault rests with why the 7 will be the last line to get newer cars and get rid of the old Redbirds.
I guess since the Flushing area is not as great as it used to be, the political clout of the people that ride that line is not like it used to be.
[The subway in Manhattan for the most part is in the best shape compared to the other boroughs with subway service.]
Check out Chambers Street on the J/M/Z.
The Rector Street IRT station has also in explicably been allowed to remain in the same condition it has always been in, despite it being smack in the middle of downtown, and that every station on the line south of 34th St has had a makeover. Why not Rector?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The station renovations sometimes seem to follow an inexplicable pattern. Supposedly there's a formula that favors busy and run-down stations, but I see busy stations that receive no attention while others get lots.
Well that is a BIG exception of course.
I must admit seeing the subway for the first time a couple of weeks ago with other subtalk fans, I was pleasantly surprised at some sights of the system. I had a stereotypical view of things and was intimidated by some of the views and past stories.
I had the pleasure of going through the South Bronx see the newly revamped Fort Apache and parts that have come back.
Brownsville East New York Sutter, Livonia stations are another story. Coney Island absolutely needs work and Chamber street what the hell is going on there. I wanted to rid the the "7" and "J" lines 'J" was shut down for a reason or another. 7 we simply ran out of time.
What kind of neighborhood does the 7 go through?
It goes to Shea Stadium where the Mets play. Hey, did you guys see the great rally last night when our boys came back and stomped the Braves. I saw it on WTBS, the Braves' station and it looked to me that the announcers were going suffer an anxiety attack, or worse. It seemed to do the trick because today the Mets stomped the hell out of the Bravos. If we can just take them tomorrow it will have been one great series.
I was at yesterday's game, going from 8-1 to 11-8 in the 8th was quite a feat. Everyone was chanting 'we want Rocker' during the several pitcher changes in the 8th.
To keep this on-topic, there was a train parked on the express track from 8:30 until after 11:30 (I could see the line clearly from my seat), a another appeared behind at about 9:30. How many after-game expresses run from Shea?
[Coney Island absolutely needs work and Chamber street what the hell is going on there. I wanted to rid the the "7" and "J" lines 'J" was shut down for a reason or another. 7 we simply ran out of time.
What kind of neighborhood does the 7 go through?]
Stillwell Avenue (the Coney Island station) is scheduled for a major rehabilitation. It surely needs one. Chambers Street, assuming you mean the one served by the J/M/Z, well, it's hard to figure out what's going on. It's a complete disgrace that it has been allowed to deteriorate to its present condition. It's so bad that any full rehabilitation is likely to be a hugely expensive affair that will be timed in years rather than months.
The 7 serves mainly working-class neighborhoods occupied by a whole panoply of immigrant groups. Despite John Rocker's comments, it does not attract lowlifes in any unusual number.
[The 7 serves mainly working-class neighborhoods occupied by a whole panoply of immigrant groups. Despite John Rocker's comments, it does not attract lowlifes in any unusual number.]
When I last rode the 7, a week-and-a-half ago, I didn't see any lowlifes, and the rest of the passengers saw only me.
You and your wife the only ones in the car, eh? :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think all of the boroughs are lousy!
Amen to that!
Then why bother with looking at SubTalk at all??? Interesting in rapid transit usually goes with an interest in the places that they run. In many ways (not all) New York is similar to many other cities, just much larger, everything in larger numbers and more square miles of it. If the people there like it, so be it. If you hate it that much, don't read this stuff, because you will not get too many people agreeing with you...
I think there's been something of an effort to renovate the high traffic stations and the stations in the business districts. These tend to be in Manhattan.
Anyway, it may not be PC to say so, but I think our main concern has to be attracting businesses and prosperous residents--in the long term, that will do more for the poor than anybody else. And I think we should be sensitive to the requirements of particular areas. Subways are a heavily subsidized service. If everybody wants nice stations, we should raise the fare to pay for it. But I think that if you asked the working poor, they'd choose to keep the money for more pressing needs. Conversely, the middles and uppers would be willing to pay for comfort, and I say give it to them, so we can be more competitive with the suburbs and other regions. I think we could handle things fairly with special real estate assessments, but even without that, they pay most of our exhorbitant taxes in the first place.
[I think there's been something of an effort to renovate the high traffic stations and the stations in the business districts. These tend to be in Manhattan.
Anyway, it may not be PC to say so, but I think our main concern has to be attracting businesses and prosperous residents--in the long term, that will do more for the poor than anybody else. And I think we should be sensitive to the requirements of particular areas.]
That might explain why Chambers Street on the J/M/Z has been allowed to rot away.
Actually, I don't think it would take that much to clean up a dilapidated station. Philadelphia's el stations aren't so beautiful, but they are not disgusting to stand in. They are clean, somewhat freshly painted and no standing water, trash, or rodents. If you look closely at the wood and concrete, they are certainly old, but a small amount of inexpensive elbow grease and paint has kept them in a pretty good condition.
Maybe Chambers St. (J/M) could be mostly walled off with just the bare miminum of necessary platforms and tracks in view of the public.
[Actually, I don't think it would take that much to clean up a dilapidated station. Philadelphia's el stations aren't so beautiful, but they are not disgusting to stand in. They are clean, somewhat freshly painted and no standing water, trash, or rodents. If you look closely at the wood and concrete, they are certainly old, but a small amount of inexpensive elbow grease and paint has kept them in a pretty good condition.
Maybe Chambers St. (J/M) could be mostly walled off with just the bare miminum of necessary platforms and tracks in view of the public.]
Chambers Street might well be beyond mere cosmetic repairs. There is a major water leak with crumbling concrete.
07/04/2000
Water leaks aside, rehabbing Chambers St. (J)(M)(Z) is a tough one because of it's enormous interior space. There is a lot of space to rehab for such little service. The glory days must have shown Chambers St. abuzz with passenger and train activity.
Bill "Newkirk"
If the MTA was ever serious about reactivating the Second Ave. project, a full rehab of Chamber would make sense because it could serve both that line and the J/M/Z at the same time. But as we know, they're gonna have to be dragged kicking and screaming into just doing st stubway, so maybe a temporary wall like at 63rd and Lex and a half-renovation is the best idea (so long as they made sure the other half is structurally sound -- I'd hate to have the Manhattan Court Clerk's office on the second floor of the Municipal Building end up at platform level someday)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...it seems to me that the Lenox Ave. IRT is in what could be called a "depressed" neighborhood, Harlem. A decade ago they were among the worst-looking stations in the system; now they're nice and shiny. And before April 13, 1996, 14 St-Union Square IRT, in a "good" area, was also shameful with its hundreds of missing tiles. (On 4/13/96 the tiles on the uptown side were replaced, temporarily screwing up the entire east-side subway.)
Could be that the MTA selects stations for restoration based on the extent of the work needed, with more difficult jobs being deferred. I imagine that once they're finished the Canal St. bridge station and Times Sq. they'll consider tackling Chambers-Nassau.
On Saturday I rode the 'A' train on Fulton St. for the first time in years. The Utica Avenue station looks great - one of the best-looking NYC subway stations I've seen. While passing through I noticed that some of the stairways from the platform to the mezzanine at Utica are now made of metal, with steps only and no risers. This allows a clear view 'through' the stairway, and can help reduce crime by elimating places where lowlifes can hide behind. When I ride the subway, I hate having to walk around a stairway on a narrow platform, not knowing who may be lurking behind it.
For safety reasons, SEPTA in Philadelphia replaced the old solid stairways on the Broad Street Line back in the 1980's with this same type of metal stairway. NYCT should make these stairs the standard for future subway station renovations.
- Jim (RailBus)
You're right. The "open-riser" stair is now the Transit design standard for all future station rehabs (since the early 1990's), in the interest of personal security.
A nice example is at Park Place (2,3), north end of the platform, allowing the transfer to A/C/E. The old solid stair was replaced with a pair open-risers.
Another is at 50th Street (1,9), northbound platform, with two open-riser street stairs.
It'll be interesting to see them applied to the Canarsie Line overpass at East New York.
Indeed they have done so! Go visit "The Barn", which is the red aluminum structure that sits above the "L" station at Broadway-Junction and you will see that they have installed new "open-riser" stairs.
Construction is going on hot and heavy there last I looked - I have no idea what's going to be the finished product. I hope they leave SOME vestiges of what the station looked like, i.e. the split platform and vintage lights at the south end.
wayne
Wayne, from what I know, the wedge-shaped island platform will remain in it's present configuration. However, I have a feeling that a handicapped-access set-up -- meaning an elevator -- is one of the things that may be coming to the Broadway Junction station of the "L" train by years end.
As I transfer to the Fulton Street Line (A train) on weekdays at B'way Junction, I'll keep a sharp eye out on the changes and report on my findings ASAP.
Doug aka BMTman
Ah, so THAT'S what that gaping hole in the platform is for; AND it looks like they've removed that smelly crossunder as well, there's all fencing there and plywood and the shed on the n/b platform has its roof off; everything's a royal mess but I am sure they'll get it all sorted out one of these "daze"...
wayne
I like the metal stairways myself. Don't see many of them, though.
I'm bothered by the widened staircases in a number of renovated stations. I don't feel safe walking past them because of the possibility that I'll be knocked onto the tracks by a running kid or a lurching drunk.
Several points:
1- NYCT is planning on relighting all stations that do not have fluorescent, mercury, or sodium lights--including Elmhurst, Grand, 65th, etc. in Queens, Fordham, Kingsbridge IND Bronx, etc. It takes time.
2-Like it or not- we have Manhattan's location to thank for our good rush hour service. Imagine if The Bronx were the major business center of the city-let;s say the World Trade Center were in the Bronx-- we'd be looking at lots of one-way express service like the 7 ,Bronx 5, J/Z skip stop, etc.
In any transit system, traffic has to serve some major destination--if the destination is in a central point such as 30th Street in Philly then there is two way service, but if it is in an outlying area then the service is more uni-drectional or in the case of Pascack valley NJT- only one way.
I do not know when, but NYCT has plans on building trash rooms for every station as well as renovating every station.
We keep talking about Philly- they have fewer stations and only two lines. They shut down their entire system overnight and when they redid the Frankford end of their Blue Line they shut it down on weekends. MARTA and WMATA also shut down overnight
NYC runs 24/7--I have seen full trains on the L, G from Court Square to Greenpoint and Nassau, E/F Queens Blvd, 8th ave Manhattan, etc.
Contrary to some posters opinions- we must run 24/7.
>>>Queens, Fordham, Kingsbridge IND Bronx<<<
These stations have had flourescent lights for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not in the mezzanine! Quite a few still have incandescent lights in the mezzanine including Hoyt Schermerhorn IND downtown Brooklyn
Like it or not- we have Manhattan's location to thank for our good rush hour service. Imagine if The Bronx were the major business center of the city-let;s say the World Trade Center were in the Bronx-- we'd be looking at lots of one-way express service like the 7 ,Bronx 5, J/Z skip stop, etc.
Had southern Westchester developed as a center of business in lieu of Manhattan, then the focus of the city over the centuries would be oriented there. The problem you mention would not exist in any case.
Most people riding the subway from neighborhoods in the other boroughs are traveling to or from Manhattan, and thus receive nearly as much benefit from nice stations as Manhattanites. Those traveling within the boroughs benefit from less crowded stations.
I find most of Brooklyn's stations to be in good shape, with the exception of unrenovated stations on the 4th Avenue Line, which are horrible. In general, I think the un-renovated IRT stations are the worst off, Chambers Street aside. In fact -- un-renovated big stations (Atlantic Avenue, Stillwell) seem to be worse than unrenovated small stations.
I find there tends to be more garbage in areas where you have more people who tend to throw garbage on the ground. The amount of garbage in the subway is strongly correlated with the amount of garbage on the sidewalk.
Someone did a study some years back of litterers. Less than 10% of the population was responsible for all the trash, and it's no secret that the great majority of these people are poor.
The July issue of Civil Engineering magazine has a detailed article on the construction of the connection. It's fairly informative.
Don't look for this on any newsstand. It only goes to members of the American Society of Civil Engineers. Check asce.org for this online.
I'm sure many larger and university libraries will have it too.
I'll check at MIT this week.
You would think with 18 years of construction this
would be the most modern and durable bridge in the world.Since the bridge was originally for trolley traffic,Why cant they move the tracks to middle
lanes and the traffic to the outer lanes where
the tracks are now?They would need only two tracks
for both the Broadway and Sixth ave.with this configuration.Your Ideas?
Running 4 lines on 2 tracks isn't advisable (B,D,Q,N). However, this may work:
OLD CFG
|| track | track ||1lane|1lane|1lane|| track | 1 lane||
New CFG
|| 1 lane| track || track | track || track | 1 lane||
Anything is ok with me as long as you my Sea Beach back on that bridge. I think the Bay Ridge population would like that, too.
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS
THERE WILL BE A CHAT IN THE #METROCARD ROOM TONIGHT, 7/1/00 AT 9PM.
THE MAIN OP WILL BE @TEVI.
To get into the chat, goto http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard using your web browser, but if you are using a MIRC client, and only do this if you know how to, goto the irc.cjb.net server, channel #metrocard.
---@Tevi
Co-OP of #metrocard.
The posts above about flip boards vs digital signs reminds me...
Unfortunately, Hagstrom Maps intends to junk all their gorgeous hand drawn maps of the NYC area and replace them with computerized editions. Bergen County has already been replaced...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Have you seen the replacement? Is it that horrible?
>>>Have you seen the replacement? Is it that horrible? <<<
Compared to what came before it, you betcha. No computerized map holds a firecracker to a hand-drawn map...
07/01/2000
What special service if any does the #7 Flushing line have when Shea fills up and worse yet lets out diverting hundreds of riders to the #7 ?
Are there any trains short turned at Willets Point? How about express service or am I talking about something long long ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
On a similar note, I've noticed that during some recent Met games, an idle 7 train seems to be parked on the express track just north of Willets Pt. It's in a perfect position to be seen from cameras inside Shea. Coincidence?
During saturday afternoon's game, there were 2 more idle #7 trains on the service tracks at the 111 St station, along with the one on the express track north of Willets Pt. I couldn't see whether there were any trains on the flyover express track though.
Coincidence? I think so. But they are likely positioned to be ready to ship the fans back home...
I don't recall any express service on any Sundays since the World's Fair.
I do, during the 86 playoffs, at least to Woodside (the Queens Bld viaduct was being repaired then).
They have several "baseball special" trainsets laid up between Wlllets Point and Main St. on the structure. The put them in between regular service trains when the crowds come out. The return to the yard "lite" from Times Square.
Back in the late 1960's & early 1970's, they had 3 trains sitting on the express track east of W. P.. As soon as the game let out, the first train pulled in. Too often the train was fairly empty.The crowds would follow the signs for trains to Manhattan. (local) To get this special train to Times Square you had to follow the signs to Main St.
Yes, it always went express. I was on this Special Friday nights, Sat. & Sun. Afternoons. Lots of fun!
Saturday July 1 6:35 PM ET
Woman Killed by N.Y. Subway Train
NEW YORK (AP) - A 25-year-old woman fell off a subway platform early Saturday and was struck and killed by an oncoming train, police said.
Witnesses reported seeing Carolyn Waldron reading a book and standing in the middle of the platform moments before she fell onto the tracks about 2 a.m., police spokesman Alan Krawitz said. She was struck by a train and declared dead at the scene, he said.
The incident is believed to be accidental. ``She was not pushed,'' Krawitz said.
A friend of the woman told police Waldron had spent the evening watching movies at a nearby apartment and was returning to her home, Krawitz said.
I heard the same report on the news. However, I'm curious about the title of your thread - specifically the last two words. Did you know this person? Did you have a personal grudge against her? Why would post sonething so idiotic? Are you going into competition with our Left Coast Resident Race-Baiter? You need a reality check, my friend.....
In the army there is no please or thank you. You simply do your job. Your job being killing people you never met and never did anything against you. In all liklihood people you would have liked had you met them before you killed them. As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news. I have just been settling down after that WONDERFUL derailment last week and news like that dead passenger just renews my jubilation.
"In all liklihood people you would have liked had you met them before you killed them. As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news. I have just been settling down after that WONDERFUL derailment last week and news like that dead passenger just renews my jubilation."
What rock did you crawl out from under? Your posting is beneath contmpt. I'm sure I won't be the only one today but I do want to be the first. Welcome to my Kill-File, moron!!!
"In all liklihood people you would have liked had you met them before you killed them. As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news. I have just been settling down after that WONDERFUL derailment last week and news like that dead passenger just renews my jubilation."
What rock did you crawl out from under? Your posting is beneath contmpt. I'm sure I won't be the only one today but I do want to be the first. Welcome to my Kill-File, moron!!!
"I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news."
I missed this in first reading your post. This explains everything. It also proves that MTA-NYC Transit does get it right. Now, back under your rack - loser....
"As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers......" I have never made a personal attack against anyone on this site. Time to make an exception! But I'll say it politely: You are one sick puppy. Dave ought to permanently ban you from this site, but you'll just take a different mutant handle than you have now and post more written pollution. I have been a TA motorman for 19 1/2 years and I haven't killed anybody yet. Your job description is false! You are an insult to my professionalism and all my fellow transit workers. Labor and management alike.
"Labor and management alike."
Hey hey, lets not go too far. I don't think that this guy could be an insult to management.
"I don't think that this guy could be an insult to management."
Nor do I see maturity in your future.
[As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news.]
Duh.
So, MTA Kills passengers to gain government assistance? --Pal, You need govermnental assistance under Sec. 941 of the N.Y.State Mental Health Law. Try it, you may like it
To quote Lt. Garber from the original Pelham 1-2-3:
You're a sick man, Rico.
BTW, I'm sure you've all heard that Walter Matthau passed away a few days ago. He'll be missed.
response to the left coast as you mistated it ..""left coast race race-bater etc..( the reality check needs to be your own)""
I have moved on to build other websites await my negative film scanner & macintosh floppy disc recorder shooting
vidieos of the red line in spite of the gestapo los angeles sheriffs etc...working on my next ""PROJECT REDBIRD 2000...
& have laid low & avoided and took myself out of this subtalk forum ( because of some of the children here ).........
& only read other messages as some of you continue to ""attack each other": etc......
you just couldnt help yourself U had to yell out the battle cry flamage etc.......& you know the rest ........
Even when I ... ""back off & dissapear"... ( & I did this myself ) sill children persons like yourself cant resist !!!!
I just wish this format was used by all types of rail transit riders & critics worldwide & nationwide with the pros
& cons good & bad of every system & rail transit museums ""message transit phoitographs etc"".................
today all I wanted to do is read others posting pro & con & lay & not post anything at all ....!!!!
but you just couldnt resist your personal assult & attack .... ( typical ) ...... aint that right ??????
Salaam, you are absolutely correct and I'm profoundly sorry but here's the problem. My little dog had a doggy accident on the carpet while I was out last night. Even though my wife and I cleaned it thoroughly, this morning we could still detect the odor. I guess that in time your racist stench will fade as will the smell of his poop. But until then I'll try to remember that you are not really around any more.
which one are you the stinch the dogy accident the odor or your own racist stench & your own poop ??
only you can decide !!!!!
[which one are you the stinch the dogy accident the odor or your own racist stench & your own poop ??
only you can decide !!!!!]
Yo Dude,
Looks like he told you!!!!!???????
.....all I wanted is for the "chuchubob"...e mail chuchbob@yahoo.com to leave me out of the subway_crash_
etc....... poster dropped by the webmaster leave me & leave well enough alone etc....
Right now I have other things to do except recieve personal attacks & flamage on subtalk ( thank you ).....
Yes thats true. Like the rascist odor I still detect about your posting on the McDonald Av incident. Or the odors that still linger about your hatred towards Transit cleaners.
My hatred towards cleaners? Perhaps you've confused me with someone else. I happen to manage an operation that is comprised of 68 cleaners. Virtually every one of them is dedicated if not highly motivated. Several are on the threshhold of promotion. I happen to be extremely proud of my team.As a matter of fact, I don't hate any group of employees except the group that does not work. As for McDonald Avenue, perhaps you can refresh my memory as I haven't got a clue as to what you are referring to.
Steve, Steve, Steve.
On June 30 at 0610 you posted some doggy poo about Khalil Moutraji who was attacked by the F train conductor. You made some rascist references to multi cultralism and society heading to total collapse and his hitting the lottery.
One time I e mailed you about all your negative comments about the cleaners at your location and questioned you about them and you made a miserable attempt to discredit me by posting the email I sent you privately on the board.
Remember?
Since then you changed you handle but I know its you because of all the different type fonts you use, black, red, large, small.
Big deal!!
First, eye witness testimony clearly showed that the passenger first spat on the conductor. They also said that the customer swung his cane at the conductor. I do not agree with the actions taken by the conductor in responce (per TA rule) but I am entitled to my private feelings about the incident and the state of the city. You should have disagreed then when this subject was current.
Second - I'm not sure how many people post on SubTalk. I do know that i was not the first nor the last to change my handle. I did not do it secretly nor in an attempt to hide anything. I very openly proclaimed my reasons for doing so.
[because of some of the children here]
[...sill children persons like yourself cant resist !!!![sic]]
I wish you's stop making age-ist statements. Most of your posts that criticize someone make negative remarks about children. What do you have against children?
Bob
........I just wanted to be ""left out" of the subway_ crash _posts & rersponses ....... etc.........
there was no reason to drag my name out of mothballs compare & put me on the same level with the poster subway_crash _etc.....
since I was ""laying low"" & stayed off the subtalk forum I wanted to be left alone by the children ( they know who they are )
{ smile }.......& as I last said it would be nice to hear from rail transit posters ""WORLD-WIDE".....( thank you ).....
I don't blame you at all. Believe me, having had some experience with this kind of reputation smearing of all parties concerned (and of some who aren't concerned with this specific issue, such as yourself), I can say that being compared to someone who's at the focus of the controversy here is not a good thing.
As for world wide, I happen to live in Toronto.
-Robert King
...thank you very much .........sir !! ...I intended to ""lay off of subtalk"" for a long time as there still needs to be
more posters either removed & or replaced by excellent sane nice & wondreful persons like yourself ..!!!!!
I sure want to shoot a vidieo of the toronto subway one day soon when i visit detroit which is near you etc ......
Again thank you very much Mr Robert King .....!!!!
Salaam,
since you enjoy videotaping trains, may I suggest when you do go to Toronto go to the observation decks of the CN Tower (at the 114th & 147th floors) and videotape the miles of commuter rail trains going in & out of Union Station. I was in Toronto for the first time three weeks ago when I took the family to Niagara Falls and I found the CN Tower views captivating. By the way, Toronto still has streetcars!!
The last time I was in Toronto (1981) I too was fascinated with the views and perspectie offered bythe height. I took dozens of 35 MM slides (No camcorders back then). Anecdotally, I was with my wife and my daughter (who was 12 at the time). As luck would have it, the "Miss Nude World" contest was being judged in the tower the evening that we visited for the night views. Talk about poor timing.
Should have returned later sans family.
-Hank :)
Would the pagent have waited for him to return later. Thats why he said bad timing!!!
By the way, the CN Tower is a great place to watch a Blue Jays game in the Sky Dome, especially on the glass floor on the 113th floor. We were there too early, so only saw batting practice!!
A glass floor 113 stories up? I don't think so.
-Hank
>>> A glass floor 113 stories up? <<<
O.K. Hank, maybe it is not glass, but it is transparent.
Tom
I thought that he was saying he wouldn't walk on it.
Peace,
ANDEE
it's most definitely glass - quite an obscene amount of it, enough to support an elephant, so they say.
Watched part of a Blue Jays game from the glass floor when I was there in 1999. I just lied down on the floor. Had the camcorder's lens on full zoom, looked like I was watching it on TV. When I got up a few minutes later, a group of tourists was awe-struck that I just nonchalantly lied down on that floor 113 floors up. When I said I was from NY, that seemed to explain everything to them!
--Mark
Actually the CN tower is a great place to railfan. You get a view of Toronto Union Station and the Canadian "NEC" to the east and west. You can also see some "real" towers in the active SCOTT ST. and JOHN ST. interlocking towers.
Not for nuthin' but thats what I said when I started this thread.
Try it at night. Some great shots of streetcars on Spadina Ave.
--Mark
If all goes well I'll be there in mid-August - hopefully my wife will be patient, we're planning to have dinner in the revolving restaurant one evening. It will be part of a round-robin rail trip, NY to Toronto, on to Montréal and Quebéc City, then back to Montréal and NY. This is assuming (as seems likely right now) that our previously-planned tour to Prince Edward Island gets cancelled. We'll be taking advantage of Via Rail Canada's Three Cities tour and extending it ourselves, nine days total.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool! If you want a few great restaurants my wife and I went to while we were there, lemme know.
--Mark
thank you very much officer rosen onf the nypd & thank the transit police of nyc for not harrassing me while
shooting vidieotape of the redbirds & the nyc subway system !!!!!
thank you very much officer rosen onf the nypd & thank the transit police of nyc for not harrassing me while shooting vidieotape of the redbirds & the nyc subway system !!!!!
Consistent: Possessing firmness or coherence.
When the posts are negative you say you want to be left alone - that you are too busy for Subtalk. When the posts are positive or neutral you have the time to respond. This is not consistent. I just felt obliged to point this out to you. No need to respond if you are busy. Just enjoy your holiday.
...officer rosen has been respectful to me unlike some other ..............children on this forum ..........
yes i have the right to correct the negative & put it in its place....... & praise & agree with the positive ............
Then am I to assume that your earlier post was untrue, that you are not too busy to respond to subtalk messages. Pavlov's (sp?) dog suffered a similar affliction. By the way, as long as officer Rosen has been so respectful - his name should be capitalized.
.......Take my name of of your ""posts"" please...!!!! do not use my name inside your posts go away & leave well enough alone.. I am leaving you alone etc..........
& yes I am working on other things besides the few children on this forum & thier silly tiny little.. ""sandbox bullying & child play""
I am working on websites & club sites and my drum section jazz recording & mixing audio cds etc.. ( some not transit related )........
& downloading transit photography for the los angeles rail section & others etc...........I am busy doing other things besides
"" some of the children on subtalk " .......& I am raising money for my next ""project redbird"...!!!!!
Actually some of you on this forum are a useless do nothing go nowhere say nothing etc.... waste of time....( thank you ).
Okay everybody. Why is everybody picking on Salaam? He didn't do anything to you guys. Who cares if he capitalizes Rosen or not - this is the web, not English 201. Just leave him alone. Was it not the incessant badgering of Salaam (by Pigs of Royal Island and several others) that led Pirmann to make us all have these stupid passwords in the first place? In the changeover my old identity on this message board ("Seattle Guy") got lost so that no matter what password I type I can't post using it. So let's leave him alone, and Salaam, you can stop being dorogotory about "children" on Subtalk because the people who bug you may be being childish but I am 17 and I don't see how that makes me less eligible to post on these boards. We can all just get along, Right?
I certainly hope so.
And just so that this message isn't COMPLETELY unrelated to transit I'm going to say that I think the Bx12 should be converted to Light Rail (and I believe many of you feel the same way).
So if we can all agreaa that the J subway was a bad idea, and that the Bx12 needs to be an LRT, and that we all wish the Culver Shuttle was still there, etc. etc. etc... then we can also all agree to stop bugging each other like 7th graders!
Abe aka Light Rail Rules! aka Seattle Guy
I agree, Salaam is cool!
......to the last two threads & messages you are what this subtalk forum is all about & I thank you both very much!!!
******************************************************************************************************************************************
THANK YOU !!!!
Tomorrow I pick up my negative scanner to my epson 2500 that will enable me to scan from my negatives..
& I will buy a PC floppy scanner to add to my G3 machitosh from there soon I will publish my own transit page
with excellent thuimnails & pictures !!! Wish me well the last two subtalkers & I thank you very much !!
Salaam: Since you are my next door neighbor, so to speak, I third the motion. We Californians have to stick together. There are a lot of my buddies out there who don't like our great state----for whatever reason. Remember the Lakers, boys??????
hey california is cool - when they have to lengthen the platforms on a light rail line (blue) because it is maxed out and still SRO all day that's my idea of transit
Abe
Fred: Its not that we don't appreciate California. Its just that here in New York we put clorine in our drinking water,in California you use a different chemical compound in yours.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All also all that Smog that you breath in Arcadia-Pasadena Foothills. On a Clear Day, You Can Next door.
The Lakers...yeah...Aren't they that unruly mob that went a a rampage celebrating the NBA Championship?
Funny, New York has the reputation, but when was the last time New Yorkers set fire to a cop car in 'celebration' of a sports championship? Can you say NEVER?
-Hank
You at least make sense. You have also yet to lie, contradict yourself, or post a "fact", insist that it is true in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and fail to support your own argument with any sources. You also haven't resorted to the 'You're all out to get me!' defense when your phony "fact" is revealed.
Oh, and it's English 001 where they teach you how to use pronouns and proper punctuation. You can't GET to 201 without that simple bit of knowledge.
-Hank
actually by us that would be English 80 but the point is I think we have better things to do then filling up this message board with posts that do nothing more than criticize another person's captilization.
It goes much further than capitalization and punctuation. It goes to repetition of subjects, ad-nauseum. It goes to making anti-white and anti police stanements. It goes to being totally obnoxious. He is reaping just what he has sown.
Hmmmm . . . converting the Pelham Parkway/Fordham Road bus to light rail. I guess I'm not the only one who wants to see light rail there. As someone who's had the misery of riding the old Bx12 many times (I live fairly close to the 12 bus), I can say that it is not a fun experience, especially along Fordham Road. If the 12 was converted to light rail, it would certainly have to go under ground along Fordham Road because it's a NIGHTMARE to travel along that road with all the double parking. When I was 16 I took driving lessons and my instructor had me drive along Fordham. Never again will I drive on that road. It's bad! Light rail for Fordham and Pelham Parkway is a good idea!
I know there was a thread on this not long ago. I'm going to look for those postings to find what other people think about Bx12 LRT. But just one question: Where would the light rail line go after Fordham? Would it end at 207th and Broadway like the bus does now or would it continue from there. I say extend it to the Hudson River and have it turn south along Amtrak's Hudson Line tracks to get to Midtown. How about that?
Need gratification? Net is full of means.
Arti
do something constructive etc.... check out my website .. since you insist .....
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/5347
I am sure this site will fill your need for the gratification !! many means there .....enjoy!!!!!!
thank you very much officer rosen of the nypd & thank the transit police of nyc for not harrassing me while
shooting vidieotape of the redbirds & the nyc subway system !!!!!
I was going to delete this thread but you know what, I decided to take the others advice on this one.
You're no longer welcome here. Your handle's been disabled. Please don't write me and complain.
Lets not get into a censorship debate here. Obviously not everyone will agree with me but if it really offends you, you can easily start up a chat board of your own.
-Dave
I'm with you, Dave Pirmann.
Dave,
Normally I am against censorship in any form. In the past I have thought that you have pre-empted threads too quickly. However, as I have said before, it's your ball game and we all have agreed to play by your rules. Having said that, in this case i agree whole-heartedly with your actions. This person had expressed some very hateful thoughts without any redeeming factors. Subtalk will be more civilized without that hate-monger and hopefully it will serve as a worning to the other hate-monger(s) among us. Thank You
"Free Speech ceases to be free when it becomes Hate Speech."
-Unknown, CSI, Spring 1998 Semester.
-Hank
I don't know about that. If the target of the speech deserves it hate speech can be am important tool for getting rid of evill. If we assume that most people are rational they will be able to listen to all hate speech and determine rightly which is justified (like targeting dictators and republicans and the like). I frankly have no problem ith hate groups spouting hate speech. It usually makes them look like idiots and morons. The easiest way to denounce these groups is to let them shoot their mouth off. That aside I see any infringement on free speech as the thin end of the wedge to more sweeping regulation.
I feel that Mr Subway Crash deserved a good ass kicking, but barring that a ban is equally annoying.
This is Dave's living room, and we are guests in it. Dave is not the government and has no obligation to tolerate individuals who are persistently offensive.
Someone mentioned to me about the movie 'Network' that the truest supporter of free speech is the guy who defends the right of someone whose views offend him to speak his piece. Basically, an orthodox jew letting the nazi speak his piece.
-Hank
Are you suggesting that the orthodox are more offended by the nzis than the rest of us?
I has been said that those who would deny freedom to others do not deserve it themselves. Which means, of course, that we must extend freedom to the undeserving. Nevertheless, this website is a private place, not a public street; and the proprietor has the right to decide for himself to what degree he will tolerate obnoxious characters.
I'm just trying to make an understandable example. And any Jew would be more offended at a nazi than anyone else, for it is they who faced the most persecution.
And, as you say, the owner of the soapbox gets to say who can speak.
-Hank
Any Jew would be more offended at a nazi than anyone else.
Are you sure? I would certainly hope that any of our Christian or Muslim brethren - indeed, any civilized person - would be just as offended as we are by such an affront to society, regardless of whether or not they have personally experienced persecution for their faith or anything else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hate speech is free speech, the 1st amendment doesn't have any footnotes that I know of. BUT since this is a private venue Dave has the right to discipline or banish the occasional unrelenting moron that chooses to spew nonsense here. It's like we are all in Dave's backyard, sometimes he has to open the window and tell a troublemaker to get lost.
The NYCT and, I'm sure most larger corporations, have adopted a policy of zero tollerance to racist or sexual comments. It has been held in civil courts nationwide that where a company tollerates such speech, it is, in effect, condoning and promoting a hostile work environment. As such they can be held liable which translates into $$$$$. Today, your favorite Polish joke can get you terminated.
Great! It's about time!! Such "humor" is ignorant and does nothing but contribute to the poisoned social climate which has served no other purpose than to further undermine those very freedoms we all enjoy.
Eric Dale Smith
[The NYCT and, I'm sure most larger corporations, have adopted a policy of zero tollerance to racist or sexual comments. It has been held in civil courts nationwide that where a company tollerates such speech, it is, in effect, condoning and promoting a hostile work environment. As such they can be held liable which translates into $$$$$. Today, your favorite Polish joke can get you terminated.]
Wrong. Minorities can tell all the horrible degrading jokes about whites they want, and they won't get in any trouble.
How true that is! I remember observing anti-white messages in a Bronx IRT mensroom. Also, I overheard two people making anti-white comments in a Queens IND crewroom during the first O.J. trial.
Beg to differ, Peter. I cannot speak for all cases but there have been 3 very recent cases of racial bias in the TA where minorities were disciplined for intollerant statements about others. One of them actually began here on SubTalk. In another case, a West Indian gentleman was suspended because a Russian Jew was next up for overtime and he took the job. The West Indian, thus, was unable to work that night. In the heat of anger he stated that he should have been given the assignment because "The Jew has enough money." He has been suspended since. Has this gone too far? Perhaps but the law states that this kind of speech constitutes a hostile work environment and if the organization takes no action - in is a willing accomplice in perpetuating that environment.
[I cannot speak for all cases but there have been 3 very recent cases of racial bias in the TA where minorities were disciplined for intollerant statements about others. One of them actually began here on SubTalk. In another case, a West Indian gentleman was suspended because a Russian Jew was next up for overtime and he took the job. The West Indian, thus, was unable to work that night. In the heat of anger he stated that he should have been given the assignment because "The Jew has enough money." He has been suspended since. Has this gone too far? Perhaps but the law states that this kind of speech constitutes a hostile work environment and if the organization takes no action - in is a willing accomplice in perpetuating that environment.]
Well, those are hopeful signs. I sort of suspect that the TA is more enlightened in that regard than are most private employers, as it's long been integrated.
That's not entirely true. It gets ANYONE in trouble for telling off-color jokes of any kind.
You seem to be basing your "facts" on generalities and supposed "statistical data."
I work in a multi-ethnic environment and have seen blacks and other "minorities" get reprimanded for telling off-color jokes just as much as whites (many of the jokes in question, BTW, were not ethnic-specific, but gender-based).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, without opening a whole new can of worms, in general, the punishment for minorities is usually less severe than for whites in the same situation.
[Doug, without opening a whole new can of worms, in general, the punishment for minorities is usually less severe than for whites in the same situation.]
Based on what.....???
BTW, since I like to go fishing -- caught some Fluke this Saturday at Montauk -- opening up cans of worms is something I would enjoy doing.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, from the views of the people who put out 'Third Rail' (I'm aquaited with a few), they feel that minorities SHOULD be allowed to 'get away' with certain 'activities' because in the United States, they have been oppressed for so long, the current white establishment needs to make up for the errors of their great-great-grandfathers. My response to that is usually along the lines of Jews being allowed the same 'liberties' as the minorities of which they speak, for similar reasons.
-Hank
Based on what.....???
Based on observations of actual disciplinary cases. Also the notion that certain minorities believe that they cannot be considered racist despite their views.
Based on what.....???
Based on observations of actual disciplinary cases. Also the notion that certain minorities believe that they cannot be considered racist despite their views.
As for fishing, my brother is the fisherman in the family. He made the cover of "Northeast Saltwater" some time back when he landed a 357 LB Mako. Two weeks ago, one of my employees also took 4th place in a sharking contest when he landed a 294 LB Mako. I've also promised to go out to Montauk (or at least Captree) with a few of my
CTAs. Perhaps we'll bump into you there...
[As for fishing, my brother is the fisherman in the family. He made the cover of "Northeast Saltwater" some time back when he landed a 357 LB Mako. Two weeks ago, one of my employees also took 4th place in a sharking contest when he landed a 294 LB Mako. I've also promised to go out to Montauk (or at least Captree) with a few of my
CTAs. Perhaps we'll bump into you there... ]
Verrrry impressive -- a 357 lb. Mako!
I'll be out at Montauk again sometime just after Labor Day (when the rates go down). For the past two years my strategy w/Montauk is to make reservations prior to the month of May (work schedule permitting) with my dates being the week or weekend before the 4th of July (this way I get cheaper room rates, but benefit from good fishing weather and less "tourists" clogging up the center of town).
Incidentally, since last year I leave the car at home and w/my MTA bike pass take the LIRR from E. New York station and make transfers to the Montauk branch (at Babylon). With gas prices being what they are I find the $20.50 round-trip a hell of alot cheaper than taking my "boat" out to "land's end."
Of course the trip is much more pleasant now that the bi-level coaches are the norm for the Montauk branch.
Doug aka BMTman
.... and now for something completely different !
Good for the two of you for changing the subject ... I too like to open a can of worms now and then.
Mr t__:^)
I'm going to do a little pier fishing tomorrow for the first time this year. I always say I'm going to fish all year 'round but always when summer ends my fishing ends with it. Hopefully, I'll catch a couple of fish tomorrow, and then out group will charter a boat and really get into it.
Where in the LA River?
No that's where you race convertable cars with your hair GREASEd down.
Mr t__:^)
[Wrong. Minorities can tell all the horrible, degrading jokes about whites they want, and they won't get in any trouble.]
I must disagree here. In my office, even a parody of an ethnic-style joke (e.g. "An economist, a chemist, and a physicist were trapped on a desert island...") would land the joke-teller in VERY hot water, if not boiling oil.
BTW, it is my experience that most employers today concern themselves more with reprimanding employees who make sexist or homophobic jokes rather than ethnic jokes. Alot of that has to do with the new EEOC guidelines and the fact that more gays (and lesbians) are in positions of authority -- particularly in federal and municipal employment.
Doug aka BMTman
> I have thought that you have pre-empted threads too quickly.
Really? Recently I've thought I've waited too long to cut down some of the crap that goes on. It's usually clear from the first couple of posts that the thread is going to degenerate into senseless verbal violence anyway.
While I, too, am opposed to censorship, the awful comments made by Subway_Crash warranted his dismissal. I do not see the humor in poking fun at people's unfortunate demise. It is unnescessary, uncalled for, and completely tasteless; and has no place on this message board.
I can only hope and pray that he sees the error of his ways, and realizes that it is only by the grace of God that it was not he who perished in such a horrible way.
Good work, Dave. As I had told you in the past he was the one person I thought might deserve the killfile.
Thank you Dave. This Subway Crash was the only Subtalker I truely disliked (even considering Mr. LA transit system)
.....please leave me out of this & please do not mention my name thank you ..........
I'm not particularly pleased with the process (but not necessarily the end result) that Mr. Pirmann has followed here because if we really wanted to clear things up, we'd ask Subway_Crash to fully explain his submissions, and justify the reasoning behind them, and then start disabling handles if there is a reason to.
With the situation as it currently stands, we can only guess at whether or not Subway_Crash was speaking sarcastically or not of the accidents that the MTA has been having with the aging Redbird fleet dragging objects snagged in their doors, passengers falling onto tracks etc. Unfortunately Subway_Crash's ability to explain himself has been preemptively removed before he could explain himself, so we will likely never know what his actual intentions were. If we asked Subway_Crash what he intended in his submissions it would be a nonstarting effort because he can't respond.
Essentially, what I am trying to say is that I'm displeased that I can now only hear one side of the story because of a third party's decision. I am also saying that imposing a punishment (in this case handle deleting, effected Mr. Pirmann) before the other side (Subway_Crash) can defend himself is what I personally find to be heavy handed and a disgusting failure to adhere to due process.
I will be including a chat room in the next update to my website, which should be reasonably soon.
-Robert King
robaking@hotmail.com
http://members.xoom.com/wobit/
I've managed to steer clear of this discussion so far, but here I will administer my 2¢ worth; to wit - You are entitled to your own views and opinions; however this is Dave's 'house' as it were, and he is entitled to run it as he sees fit. I read most of the offender's postings and found them to be mostly without merit; he seems to have an axe to grind; and this forum is not the place for that. And Dave has dealt with it accordingly. Your own forum is exactly the place for continuation of such discussions.
wayne
I will have a forum - soon. As I said, it will be included in the next update to my website, which has not happened yet.
Correct, everybody is entitled to run their website in whatever manner suits them. I can speak from experience, because I do have my own website: If you run it in a way that visitors disagree with, they might criticize you. You have to accept that, that you will recieve criticism, when you start a website. Owning a website does not grant you any immunity from recieving criticism regarding your actions on it.
Now concerning my submission: I never said I sided with Subway_Crash's views. Read it carefully - it only pertains to how Subway_Crash and this forum have been handled by the forum owner.
-Robert King
robaking@hotmail.com
http://members.xoom.com/wobit/
I think Subway_Crash has posted here long enough to realize that you probably would not get the answers you are looking for. You're obviously able to write to him in email and get his side of the story-- I'm not preventing you from getting the answers you require if he's willing to share them with you. But I think it's been long enough that he's been able to grind his axe in my back yard.
Hey, Bob, Dave did the right thing -- That guy (Subway_Crash) is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
I've been combing through the previous messages here, via the search engine, and that is the conclusion I'm reaching myself. Whenever Microsoft deals with Hotmail (I'm getting the message saying that the server my account happens to reside on is 'unavailable', and that they should have it back up soon) I'll email and hope I get some answers. I suppose I should say for the benefit of anybody who has tried to send me email, that I haven't been able to retrive it yet either.
-Robert King
"if we really wanted to clear things up, we'd ask Subway_Crash to fully explain his submissions, and justify the reasoning behind them,"
Robert, for the better part of this year, I have repeatedly asked Mr. Crash and his various other handles to stop talking his Ping-Pong BS and if he had something to say, say it plainly. He chose to continue in riddles. Sadly, I believe that he did have some legitimate information although I obviously disagreed with his conclusions. Having said that, I think his most recent post was outrageously slanderous and blatently untrue. At best it was irresponsible and inflamatory. Alas, we'll now never learn the entire Al Garner story nor will we ever know who C/R Steinbach is.
Thanks, Dave.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't care about censorship, I don't care about how it's supposed to work. I thank you for your actions regarding this creatures hateful postings. Thank you sir and have a safe 4th of July
I would just like to ring in with something here.
This guy was not at all CELEBRATING the deaths of passengers! His "thank God" and other comments to that effect were clear uses of shocking SARCASM, expressing his theory that NYC Transit is killing people intentionally.
Now, if you want to take him to task for that claim, then go right ahead.
But, no one should insinuate that this guy was in any way happy about these deaths. If you had read this guy's previous posts, you would know that this guy was OUTRAGED over injuries and deaths of people on the system, and that his claim about Transit killing people grew out of this OUTRAGE.
So, attack him for drawing the wrong conclusion -- for seeing incompetence, negligence, and ass-covering, and then confusing it with an intentional plan to kill people.
But, don't attack him for being happy about -- or even indifferent to -- the suffering and death of people on the tracks, because he was not.
Ferdinand Cesarano
i have followed the posts of subway_crash and an earlier handle that he used ... his views and ways of expressing himself were shocking and disturbing... he frightened me, because i really felt he believed what he said, as he was always ready to provide proof of his allegations... the original title of his post was especially offensive since it seemingly was thanking god for the death of a passenger... what he actually believed i don't really know...
however, i think everyone who posted responses under that same banner shares some responsibility for continuing the outrageous words... the subject titles of a response can be altered... there have been other occasions when flaming words and off color words have been duplicated from posting to posting... on a less outrageous level, there has been a string of posts using todd glickman's name, even after i think he genuinely asked people not to continue dragging his name as a subject heading...
"as he was always ready to provide proof of his allegations.."
Proof in your eyes only. He made claims and then said go to the library of Cogress and look it up. If he wanted to provide real proof, he should have posted the documentation or at the very least, a link. I guess your standard of proof depends on whether it's pro-management or anti-management.
I respectfully suggest that you re-read Heypaul's post. I think that it is clear from the context (maybe not clear enough) that Heypaul was not endorsing the quality of the proof, just pointing out that the guy seemed to think he had proof and, therefore, seemed to actually believe what he was posting.
It was clear. Heypaul and I have fundimental differences of phylosophy. My post was meant to point to the fact that heypaul requires a much lower standard of proof (or the vague promise of proof) when the post is anti-management.
Personally I thought it was obvious that the "Thank G-d" in his post was sarcasm against the TA. In all of Mr Johnson's posts he had outrageous conspirical theories about the TA causing deaths of passengers, ergo his nickname, and expressed outrage about it.
Well, the way I read it is that yet another death is another piece of evidence backing up his viewpoint in that the TA will do anything to disregard safety in favor of lining their pockets. I didn't see any sarcasm there. I see that he wants evidence to back up his claims- when someone dies, he'll use it to his own advantage.
I hadn't read it that way. But, now that you point it out, ....
A latent ambiguity?
His nickname alone sent him to my killfile long ago. Just something unsettling about it and his rants.
[This guy was not at all CELEBRATING the deaths of passengers! His "thank God" and other comments to that effect were clear uses of shocking SARCASM, expressing his theory that NYC Transit is killing people intentionally.]
Sarcasm is difficult to pull off, whether you're talking about books, movies, or Subtalk postings. Subway Crash didn't manage it.
I don't know about that. Having read several of his other posts, he seemed quite happy to see bad things hapening. Sarcasm is usally tempered by some level-headed opinionating, or even other posts where real views are stated. Even before the recent rash of draggings, he had made several posts attesting to his 'belief' that the MTA was 'better off' when things went wrong, and in fact hoped for more.
-Hank
07/02/2000
With the Fourth of July and OP Sail coming up, it seems that HBLR may be put to the test. Will they be running MU'd sets or extra trains? Maybe those NIMBY's who knocked HBLR may be convinced of it's importance.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't have their usual schedule, but service will start to Liberty State Park starting 5:30AM at seven minute intervals.
Intresting, I saw a railroad clerk (opps sorry, what are we calling you guys now? Customer Service Agent or something political correct?) emptying the turnstiles at Kings Highway on the F line. Now this is a fairly busy station for Brooklyn. Not real busy but enough. The clerk just used his hand to catch the tokens.
Metrocard use is up so much, gone are the days of the tokens hitting that medal pail and rushing down the shute. The clerk just held his hand under the shute to collect maybe 4 or 5 tokens a turnstile (6 total). Intresting no?
What's a token?
We are Station Agents. Yes- while MetroCard use is up there are still many stations where a bag or bucket is needed for tokens. For secuirty I wont list those stations.
Yesterday, there was a fire (!) at the end of the Roosevelt St (E/F/G/R) Jamaica bound platform. The fire was at one of those garbage piles we've seen along the Queens Blvd line heavily infested with rats. People just watch the fire burn and walk away. There were no signs of TA workers. It seems to me the fire may be set by TA to kill the rats... or was it set by some pranksters?
If it was set to kill the rats, then I should get my nasal cavity cleaned of the smoke (yuck!)
No TA workers? That's interesting because those piles are directly in front of the tower!
Once again, NYC will be graced with my prescence:)
Taking advantage of my day off I'll get to tackle the HBLR unlike I was able to do when I was there last Saturday.
BTW, I saw a schedule for the running of the R-110B's last week. Is that still in effect for Tuesday?
We will be honored by your august presence??? We would spread out the red carpet but Rudy might think we are trying to block the steps of City Hall and send his Commisar of Police after us (I spelled it right).
Should we alert HBLR to have the welcoming committe at Exchange Place in full regalia???
========================
All kidding aside. Enjoy your trip to the city and have a safe 4th.
I saw a schedule for the running of the R-110B's last week. Is that still in effect for Tuesday?
Even on normal days, half the time it doesn't run. If the guys at 207 feel like taking it out for a walk, they will in the time slot indicated on the schedule.
I did put the R110B schedule up but I don't know or can predict when it will run. Since tomorrow is a Saturday schedule (I think), it will not run.
When a trolley approaches a turnout, how does the T/O select between the main route and the diverging route? I know a few locations have towers but most do not, particularly where the tracks run in the street.
On a side note, I've been watching the GPS Videos on Boston Trolleys. They have two (part 1 and Part 2); Part 1 covers the years 1948 - 56 and includes footage on the Type 4, Type 5 and PCC cars, as well as a smattering of other, earlier types. Part 2 covers more of the same material but from other photographers in addition to Foster Palmer (who provided all the film footage for the first tape and narration, too.) Some great footage of the Seashore RR museum, as well. Fascinating videos and a must-have for trolley fans.
I know one way for the switch to set is when the trolley crosses a certain point the car is pulling power or not. Power on the switch sets to diverging, power off it is straight through.
In the game Trolley Time Challange this is the way to pick your route.
In Trolley Time Challenge, there is a white line across the tracks
just before the switch. You decide power on, or power off at that point to set your route. I have the game and still stink at applying
the brakes the right way. Anyone have any ideas?
Chuck Greene
On PCC cars you have a necessary Action switch that lets you select with the button not the controler.
The button does the same thing as putting the car under power though. It creates a current draw that causes the switch to throw.
Joe
I fan them, but in real life at the Brandford I would get in trouble doing that...
The other two remote control systems that I know of for setting track switches from aboard a streetcar are (very simply explained, I can go into a little more detail if anybody wants), in order from older to newer:
1) A contact system where a little attachment on the streetcar pole passes through a device located on top of the streetcar's overhead wire, before the switch is reached. The streetcar driver holds a button/switch on their streetcar's control, if they want to have the switch move to its other position, while the streetcar passes beneath the device on the wire, and a signal is sent up the pole to the device which then causes the switch in the track to move.
2) From the streetcar driver's point of view it is essentially the same to use, a pushbutton or other similar control to be held down as the streetcar approaches the switch, but instead uses two radio antennas on the streetcar - one on the leading edge of the leading truck and the other on the trailing edge of the trailing truck of the streetcar. Recieving loops are embeded between the running rails at three locations around the switch. The first is on the approach. It is designed to recieve the signal from the antenna located on the streetcar's first truck, and depending on the signal recieved (activated by the driver using the control button), moves the switch if necessary. The other two radio loops are positioned after the switch, between the running rails in each possible direction. Their purpose is to detect the signal broadcast from the rear antenna, indicating that the streetcar has cleared the switch, and causes the switch to revert to its default position.
The second system, which uses radio, allows for different length streetcars to be used with remote controllable switches. With the pole contactor system, the leading edge of an articulated streetcar would already be through the switch by the time the pole reaches the suspended detector box to set the switch, while driver on a short, nonarticulated streetcar, would have to use the remote activation button much earlier, if the suspended device was located far enough away from the switch to accomodate articulated streetcars. Another advantage of the radio system is that it does away with maintaining the little box suspended above the streetcar wire.
-Robert King
A simpler method of controlling track switch alignment that was used in many cities was a "coast or take power" rule. As described in choice 1, there would be a contactor device on the wire which could be activated by a button on the control panel, or by taking a point of power, or by coasting while under the contactor. Coasting was an action. Instead of having to read the iron, which could be difficult under certain snow, slush and traffic conditions, the operator had to follow a rule like "Coast to the right, take power to the left" or the opposite - "Coast to the left...". These rules would be universal within one traction company. Problems come about with M.U. operation. In such circumstances the contact system has to be more elaborate to assure that the second car did not cancel the action of the first car. Since many street switches were at intersections where the cars stopped for passengers, the operators had to know when the poles were under the contactors. When one had a mix of equipment, such as single truck Birneys sharing the same line as double truck cars, operators had to be particularly accurate. Heavy traffic required concentration at the same time. However, the advantage to the operator over having to get out and align the point with a switch iron was a substantial motivator to get the "spot" precisely right for each switch with each type of car.
Sometimes a rule was hung from the overhead, such as "NA" (Necessary Action) in Toronto. As with curve clearance and weight restrictions, and knowledge of true alternative routes that did not entrap the trolley and prevent it from getting back on its line, power track switch operation was some of the detailed knowledge that a seemingly simple job required.
An expansion to Ray's excellent post.
The electric switch has to be one of the most mysterious of anything in streetcardom.
The standard electric switch has a contactor on the trolley wire that is located about 55 feet from the switchpoint. A motorman wishing to take the diverging route must draw 1 point of power as he passes under the contactor. He must also apply the brake slightly to prevent car speed from building up too high. To take the normal (straight) route the motorman must "drift" meaning shut off power while passing under the contactor.
Proper operation of the electric switch is an art that must be taught and practiced.
MU operation added a problem. Having more than one pole on the wire can cause serious problems with electric switches. One way to avoid this is to use "bus jumpers" which transmit trolley power to trailing cars. Baltimore's famous 5800 series "Red Rockets" used this method to reduce the number of poles on ther wire, so did Shaker Rapid with PCC cars.
Another way of preventing improper electric switch operation with MU trains is the use of locking and unlocking contactors at electric switches. A locking contactor is located just behind the switch contactor. A pole passing through the locking contactor locks the switch to any other pole. The locking contactor also counts poles in.
An unlocking contactor is located (usually) just ahead of the switch frog. This unlocks the electric switch for the next car or train. The locking contactor sends the number of poles it regestered to the unlocking contactor.
Toronto's NA (Necessity Action) system is actually quite simple. Concerned with reducing the number of electric switch accidents on the TTC system, they developed the NA system. Every electric switch uses a resistor of about 4000 ohms as part of the sensing system (Power on, power off). All TTC did was take that 4000 ohm resistor from the control box and put it on every car. The resistor is connected to the trolley and ground through a switch. On standard cars the switch was a foot pedal, on PCC cars the switch was in a large metal housing on the dash. To take the diverging route the motorman/operator must take a "necessary action" (pushing the pedal or the button) to set the switch. To take the normal route the motorman/opeator takes no action.
The system was tested in 1948 on the Rogers Road line and was completely successful. The NA system was installed on the entire TTC system by summer 1950. The result was an almost 100% reduction in electric switch accidents.
What was unusual was that the system was not adopted by any other streetcar system in the US or Canada, even though it was far superior to the standard method. It is still in use today in Toronto.
Now, another question:
What is "St. Louis type" control for electric switches, and how does it differ from standard control? I have seen mention of it in several books, but no explanation of what it is.
Dan, a 4000 ohm resistor? I'm confused. How can the electric
switch contactor distinguish between the current drawn through
a 4000 ohm resistor (0.15 A) and the normal, power-off load of
lights, compressors, et al.?
I don't know what St Louis control is. Do you have a particular
citation in mind?
The standard electric switch control allows for the power settings to be set high enough to basically ignore lights, compressors and MG sets. (That setting is higher than a pair of WH 49 or 56 motor pair will draw on one point series.) I believe the resistor is around 4000 ohm, it may be higher. It's that 0.15 A draw that pulls the double contact relay up to the setting to "pull the switch". I'm not an engineer, so what I'm quoting may not be exact as to the resistor value. If no draw, the relay drops to throw the point to the normal (straight) position.
I forgot in my very long post to include 1 component of the TTC NA system: The wire from the NA pedal or button is connected to a button mounted on the right side of the trolley harp. That button conducts the NA signal to the contactor. Toronto's contactors only have a contact on the right side of the assembly rather than the standard two.
As to "St. Louis type" electric switch control. Harold E. Cox's "PCC Cars of North America" (1963) showed that electric switch control for all the SLPS PCC's. I've never found out how it differs.
Oh, now I know what you are talking about. There is
an independent contact, rather than relying on the series
draw. I dunno about StLouis. Perhaps it's an inductive loop
system?
I don't think it's an induction loop, we are talking about 1930's (or earlier) technology, and I don't believe a system using that was small enough to put on a car. The inductive loop system used on the Broad Street Subway used a large pre-tuned loop coil to select routes. The B4 Kawasaki cars have a permanently mounted selectively tuned coil mounted on each car to do the same thing.
I think this a question for the community: Does anybody really know what St. Louis type switch control is?
The resistor based NA switches have been replaced since the introduction of ALRVs with a radio system which is actually quite interesting because the streetcars constantly boadcast a signal. The switches have a little PCB card inside which records the car number (or in some cases another identifying number which can be traced back to a single streetcar), the time that the front and rear antennas pass the loops between the rails and the date. This information can be downloaded and anylized.
For example, the TTC has caught, by looking at the data and knowing the distance between antennas on a given streetcar, how long it took to clear a radio reciveing loop, and by doing the necessary physics, has caught streetcar drivers blasting through switches at high speeds (higher than the TTC likes). The TTC has also found a few other interesting things happen - drivers have entered a switch, found they have begun moving the wrong way, and reversed off the switch, set it, and then pass all the way through in the correct direction...
Most of the time that a switch is not in service electrically (NA button on console doesn't operate it, and must therefore be thrown manually with a switch iron) it is because the PCB card has been removed to download the accumulated data, and a spare not installed in its place.
-Robert King
07/02/2000
FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....
The Circle Line Metrocard "Escape the everday...ride the beast" is now available. I got mine at the MVM at the 34th St. 7th Ave (1,2,3,9) station. The card looks very nice with two boats with sharks teeth painted on the front. So it looks like they're here folks!
Bill "Newkirk"
Reporting
--Why was 59th Street not made an express stop on what is now the #1-2-3...In the early 1900s, it was hardly a no man's land, and it was the edge of Central Park, which had been there since the 1850s.
--And, why are no free transfers permitted from uptown to downtown at 72nd Street...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Free transfers at 72/ Bway were done away with in the late 80's due to the severe overcrowding at this tiny station. it was thought that anything that would help keep people off the stairs who weren't leaving (entering) the station would help.
Rather annoyng for the tourist who takes an uptown 2/3 to go to 59th/Columbus or Lincoln Center, realizes they passed their stop, and gets off at 72nd only to realize that they can't cross over, and must take the next uptown express to 96th and cross over, take a downtown express to 72nd, and then the local to their stop.
>>>Rather annoyng for the tourist who takes an uptown 2/3 to go to 59th/Columbus or Lincoln
Center, realizes they passed their stop, and gets off at 72nd only to realize that they can't
cross over, and must take the next uptown express to 96th and cross over, take a downtown
express to 72nd, and then the local to their stop. <<<
Exactly what happened to me on Sunday, I realized we were speeding b y 59th, I got off at 72nd, and popped for the extra ride back to ColCircle.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Another way for the MTA to promote the sale of unlimited Metrocards.
How in the world are they going to widen the tunnel to make 59 St an express stop??? They did it on the Lexington, because it was one level down, right below the local (and the BMT), and they just had to blast the walls to add in the platforms and put in a couple of stairways below the current ones (1962). On the 7th Avenue line they'd have to tear out the current platforms, widen the tunnels, move the tracks, build new platforms, stairways, etc. To do that they would probably have to close the line for 3 years.
The 72 St. station is the last "original" upper Bway entrance and is very crowded. An interesting anecdote concerns the similar (at one time) 116 St.-Columbia University station. The day after a student was killed running across Bway to the IRT entrance in the center (around 1967), plans were made to change the station to a stairway on each sidewalk of Bway and to close the building in the middle. 72 is the last of its kind.
To reduce the crowding at 72nd st, they could make the station a local stop. People who walk to 72nd instead of 79th or 66th just for the express train might start choosing the less crowded stops.
That would reduce the crowding at 72nd -- but would increase the crowding at 42nd and 96th and, worse yet, on the local trains themselves, none of which can afford it.
Since 72nd is in the early stages of a rehab, the point is moot. Supposedly the platforms will be lengthened (how, I don't know, as they taper to a point at either end, so the local tracks will have to be moved) and a new, wider will be installed on what used to be the northbound lanes of Broadway.
07/04/2000
On this 72nd St. station rehab, I was told a new station building will be built north of the old one. Is this true and what will happen to the old station building?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't have any official information, but I don't think the old one will be torn down -- doesn't it have landmark status? My guess is that both will be used.
Hope it will be kept; even if not a landmark it is an architectural treasure.
If 59th was your final destination, you could have taken a bus (M5 or M104) free of charge to complete your journey.
Why was 59th Street not made an express stop on what is now the #1-2-3...In the early 1900s, it was hardly a no man's land, and it was the edge of Central Park, which had been there since the 1850s.
Because 42nd (Grand Central) and 72nd were already express stops. Adding 59th would cause unnecessary delay. Of course, nowadays, with the transfer to the IND, an express stop there would be very useful.
And, why are no free transfers permitted from uptown to downtown at 72nd Street...
The small stationhouse has entrances on the north and south sides and staircases on the east and west sides. The fare barriers were essentially rotated 90 degrees in the 80's so that a single token booth could serve all passengers.
>>>The small stationhouse has entrances on the north and south sides and staircases on the
east and west sides. The fare barriers were essentially rotated 90 degrees in the 80's so that
a single token booth could serve all passengers. <<<
A mistake, since it prohibits free uptown-downtown transfers...
But how many people really need free uptown-downtown transfers? I agree it's a nice bonus, and since it's the norm at express stations perhaps there should be announcements (I'm pretty sure there already is explicit signage).
FWIW, if you need to transfer the other way (from a downtown train to an uptown train), just take the local one more stop -- there's a crossunder at 66th. There's also one at 59th. (Strictly speaking, the IRT crossunder at 59th was closed about ten years ago, as was a perfectly useless passageway connecting the two ends of the uptown platform. But the IND platforms function just fine as a crossunder for the IRT.)
It mystifies me why the PW LIRR branch stays with one train per hour during big wekend series at Shea...yet schedules two trains per weekend hours for the Open. I've been on the extra PW train during the Open, and it',s well, devoid of paying customers. Yet, you really need extra trains when Shea is packed.
Comments?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[It mystifies me why the PW LIRR branch stays with one train per hour during big wekend series at Shea...yet schedules two trains per weekend hours for the Open. I've been on the extra PW train during the Open, and it',s well, devoid of paying customers. Yet, you really need extra trains when Shea is packed.]
Could the organizers of the Open be covering some of the costs of the extra service?
Or the MTA thinks going by demoraphics, U.S. Open Tennis fans are more likely to shell out the extra money for the LIRR coming from Manhattan to Flushing Meadows and/or have more people coming in from the north shore to the Open that want to get there at a specific time.
I will be missing from the site for awhile due to attending the week long Punxsutawney Ground Hog Festival.
I was thinking of trying to recruit some of these great tunnel builders to assist in constructing the second avenue subway, but since NY is built on rock I guess they would not be of much help!
karl... are you trying to take over as subtalk comedian? what is the punxsutawney ground hog festival?
February 2nd is groundhog day. On this day in Pennsylvania, several towns have pet groundhogs to forecast the weather. In Punxsutawney lives the most famous of these groundhogs, his name is Phil. Haven't you ever heard of Punxsutawney Phil? If he sees his shadow on the morning of Feb 2nd, we will have six more weeks of winter. If he doesn't, spring will be early that year.
February is not a good time to have an outdoor festival; therefore, the festival is held the first week in July. This festival is held in Barclay Square, which is in the center of the town. Phil lives here during the other 364 days of the year.
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP!!!!
I believe you! They do some strange things in Pennstlvania, must be some mineral or something in the water. Anyway - I wonder if Punxsutawney has or had a railroad station; if it DOES (even though not active, I'll bet), might be interesting PRR architecture there, including carved Keystone cartouches and an ornate station house &c. could be worth checking out.
wayne
Evidence of the PRR is scant(visited early 90's). The extant railroad was the Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh, owned by the B&O between1932 and 198x when CSX(the geniuses) sold it off. Some stations still exist as well as several Interlocking towers which are notable as reinforced poured concrete structures very similar to some New Haven towers.
I believe you. I also remember that several (please do not ask how long ago. My brain is choked to too much other stuff for me to recover everything I know) years ago, Phil got irritated with his handler and bit him, just as the TV cameras rolled. (Of course, if you were dragged out of a warm burrow (with a door, no less) in the dark, you'd bite somebody, too!) :)
you may have dan and wayne fooled, but i don't believe a word of it... you're just putting everyone on here, like i used (thanks barb) to do... well have fun anyway...
But you have us all fooled, especially after the truth? was printed in the Daily News.
We'll send Phil around to your pad and have him bite you when you drag him out of your R9 cab.
what do you mean that i had everyone fooled?... you mean that people didn't believe that i had a motorman's cab in my apartment?... or that people really didn't think i existed?... i do, don't i?
Well??? Did you see your shadow? Then you might be real.
[people really didn't think i existed?... i do, don't i?]
You think you exist, therefore you do.
I believe you exist. I got a tape in the mail from you.
If you have not seen the movie Groundhogs Day rent it. Bill Murray and Gina Davis are great and the City looks ok too. I did not think I would like the flick before I saw it but it is one of my favorites now.
Sun Prairie Wis. claims also to be the groundhog capital of the world but I will leave that debate for a higher court. Every year my inlaws go to the Groundhogs Ball on Feb. 2.
Have a great time Karl. Please tell us how your weekend goes.
Joe
Considering the progress made in NYC in the last 40 year and the grand showing in Los Angeles [ humor intended on both of these] I think you have the right idea.
I'm back safe and sound! Mon was rainy, but the rest of the visit was in beautiful weather
I got to see Phil and his wife and their two little ones. I think Phil slept through my entire visit. I really thought they only did that in the winter!
heypaul-Do you believe now?
Wayne-I did get a few snapshots of the only remaining railroad building in Punxsutawney! Local people tell me it was a B&O office building.
Joe M-I have the movie "Groundhog Day" on tape, and think it is a great one too. Did you know that except for a few of the highway scenes, the movie was filmed in a small town in Illinois (I think) that is very similar to Punxsy.
Dan L-Some of the local people tell me that Phil has bitten his handler several times, and caused some very embarrassing moments.
bigedirtmanl-I wanted to ask Phil about the Second Ave Subway job, but he never woke up during my visit!
david v-Local people tell me that there is a unique abandoned interlocking tower still standing near DuBois, but I did not get to see it on this trip.
Just curious who's working on the 3rd. I'm fairly certain it's in the mionority. Your Forgotten NY webmaster will be at his post in the World's Largest Store as usual....
Well....I'm due in 12 midnight tonight. So I guess I am working. (Although I get off at 6AM)
I work at the Control/Command Center and the MTA is making me work July 3rd... it's a pain but I'm looking foward to a quieter day.
-Harry
[Just curious who's working on the 3rd. I'm fairly certain it's in the mionority. Your Forgotten NY webmaster will be at his post in the World's Largest Store as usual....]
Not me, fortunately. It works out well because Monday is my wife's only day off from her nursing job on this four-day holiday period. We had considered leaving the kids at Grandma's and making a quick day trip to Philadelphia*, but decided that's just too much.
* = amazingly, despite having lived my entire life within a five or so hour drive of The City of Brotherly Love, and having driven through its outskirts on the New Jersey Turnpike on countless occasions, I have never been in Philadelphia.
Peter:
I'll be in Philly today to ride some transit out of 69th st.
I'll ride for you! Hope you make it down someday , maybe on the
August(planned) Sub-Talk Gala anniv. ?
Chuck Greene
I've been to Philly once, on May 10, 1970. Didn't ride on any transit lines, but I did see some PCCs.
Kevin,
Isn't July 3rd the day the employees find out their assignments for the Thanksgiving Day Parade?
Isn't July 3rd the day the employees find out their assignments for the Thanksgiving Day
Parade? >>>
I will not be a balloon bearing clown. I am a member of Subtalk. I have my dignity. Some of it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
A smart decision, handling those ballons is no picnic. It's is real work! The one time I did it for Tap-O-Mania convinced me! And that was for only 1 block!
Peace,
ANDEE
Assignments for the parade Captains are not finalized until September
Peace,
ANDEE
I am. Somebody's got to be in charge :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am, until 1500 hours although I am going to make every attempt to weasel my way out of work as soon as lunch is done. I have gardening to do and the like.
wayne
Its my Normal day off for July 3th but I will be working July 4TH from 8AM to 4PM
I'm working to. As my bossess say someone has to do it.
I will work the third because I did not take vacation but will work the Fourth to be there for special service for the holliday.
Have a happy, enjoyable, and safe Fourth.
Joe
As a pround member in your US Navy, I'll be doing my part in defending our great nation so all of you can keep this fine site chock full of infoon both the 3rd & 4th...Be Safe!!
As a pround member in your US Navy, I'll be doing my part in defending our great nation so all of you can keep this fine site chock full of info on both the 3rd & 4th...Be Safe!!
July 2 was my wedding anniversary, hence I decided to take Sunday, Monday & Tuesday off.
[July 2 was my wedding anniversary, hence I decided to take Sunday, Monday & Tuesday off.]
Good choice, getting married on my birthday. Happy anniversary!
Thank you. 32 years so I guess it took root.
[Happy anniversary!]
[Thank you. 32 years so I guess it took root.]
Congratulations! We celebrated our 33rd in January.
To get on topic, we started our honeymoon by taking the train from Philly to New York. My bride looked around the coach and said, "This looks like a subway."
I happened to be in the city on July 2, 1968. My aunt was in town at some summer opera production at the Met and we spent the day with her. The day before, my mother and I met her at LGA after taking a prewar E train with a dark first car.
My older daughter's birthday too (she turned 33). Mazel Tov!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you
Thank you.
I'm here today ... just part of the 24 hour 7 days a week service.
Mr t__:^)
MIT's open today.
I actually got a seat on the commuter train! And we were four minutes early, since the dewll time at intermediate stations was way down.
Kevin,
I am working today.....I was due in at 8:30 AM, but - as you can see - that time has passed. Mondays are slow for me anyway, and I'm blessed by living 10 minutes away from the office (I work in the former Gertz store building, on Jamaica Av and Guy Brewer Blvd), and my boss is off on Mondays. I'm hoping the library is open today, and not too crowded: I can kill an hour there at the computer center, and surf the web.....
Tony
My Board of Education administrative office is open today, although most people took off. I was looking forward to a nice quiet day to surf the Net- ooops! I mean, get some work done, but the few people who are here brought their kids in, eliminating any chance of R & R.
I spent this whole weekend yelling at the TV or radio every time it referred to this as a "holiday weekend". Usually the Board is very liberal with its holidays for non-pedagogical employees, that is, non-teachers. This year, however, we get screwed out of the Jewish high holy days which fall out on a weekend and Columbus Day, which we get anyway. To add insult to injury, Veteran's Day is a Saturday, and we don't get that Friday before.
This morning's '7' was pretty empty, but normal weekday morning express service was running despite rumors that today would be a Saturday schedule. Most people on the train at 7:00 AM were in a rather foul mood, no doubt because they had to work today.
I'm staying FAR AWAY from all the OpSail festivies.
>>>I spent this whole weekend yelling at the TV or radio every time it referred to this as a "holiday weekend".<<<
Glad to see that someone else found that BS just as annoying as I did.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's not really work when your commute in is enjoyable, is it? OK, so it still is work and I've gotta do it.
We're open today-regular hours. And, from what I saw on my early morning shift there are lots of other people working, also.
I'm working. Half day.
Anyone up for a field trip this afternoon starting around 2:30? Drop me some email. There's a few things I want to get pictures of for the line by line guides. Plus, there's always those pesky cows around town to track down... is there a subway cow?
-Dave
I have seen one in Penn Sation. It is at the bottom of the escalators at the 34th st entrance around the corner from the 1/9, 2 and 3 entrance.
Peace,
ANDEE
I seen a Metrocard Cow in Grand Central Term. by the Transit Store.
Sweet, I'll have to check it out.
Actually I did happen to find a subway map cow outside 1 New York Plaza (near the Whitehall St. station).
-Dave
Great. Now all we need is for Phil Rizzuto to pose next to it.
Holy cow!!
Rumor has it there are several other subway-themed cows at:
Subway Series cow (Macombs Dam Park)
Red Subway Car cow (Westchester Square)
The Bronx Is Up, The Udder Is Down cow (1251 A.A.)
Cow Express
I thought it might be fun to see how many cows I could track down-- but then I found out that there's over 400!
-Dave
I will have to check out that one around Westchester Sq. I'll also keep my eyes out for more of those cows.
There are two blue cows in Clove Lake Park in Staten Island, two on State St between the Ferry Terminal and Bowling Green Station and one on B'way near 242 St.
There's one at Shea Stadium: MOO-Kie!
-Hank
You know how he got that name, don't you? When Wilson was learning to talk, that was his word for milk.
Sorry, no rim shot.
I thought it might be fun to see how many cows I could track down-- but then I found out that there's over 400!
I think there are actually over 500, but I'm not sure if that includes the ones in West Orange, NJ, and Stamford, CT. I've seen 118 of them. They keep appearing and disappearing (appearing as they're finished, disappearing as vandalized cows are shipped off for repairs or, in at least one case, stolen outright).
Many of them are clustered in touristy areas. There are whole herds of them at South Street Seaport, in Central Park, and around Midtown between Park Ave and 6 Ave. Penn Plaza and the 7th Ave entrance to MSG have some, and there are 6 taxi cab cows outside PABT. In addition to MetroCow there are 4 more (I think) in GCT. "A study of still life" (or something like that) in the dining concourse is pretty nice.
Quite a few of the cows have predictable and repeated themes. NYC taxi cabs, cows celebrating diversity, views of skylines, that sort of thing. A few are rather artistic, representing styles of Matisse, Picasso (there are 2 "Picowsso" cows), Calder, etc. Some are just puzzling, like the "spilt milk" cow at 1 NY Plaza or the chewing gum cow in Central Park.
I took a picture of the MetroCow!
[Many of them are clustered in touristy areas. There are whole herds of them at South Street Seaport, in Central Park, and around Midtown between Park Ave and 6 Ave. Penn Plaza and the 7th Ave entrance to MSG have some, and there are 6 taxi cab cows outside PABT. In addition to MetroCow there are 4 more (I think) in GCT. "A study of still life" (or something like that) in the dining concourse is pretty nice.]
I just saw a "cow in motion," on the upper level of a Grey Lines sightseeing bus.
Just north of Bowling Green, there's a "cash cow" behind that big bronze bull.
Penn Station has a Times Square Cow
Funny coincidence that Chicago was in the midst of their wildly successful "Parade of Cows" this time last year.
Tell me again what year New York was the hub of the nation's meatpacking industry? :-)
Well, I guess imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery...
-- David
Boston, MA
<
It's the same wacky group of people, I think. Check out www.cowparade.org.
-Dave
I think I'll promote
www.forgotten-ny.com
as a cow-free zone...
And the madness is spreading all over the country. According to a feature in the Basltimore Sun today, here's what's going on.
Pigs in Cincinatti
"Moose on the Loose" in Whitefish, MT
"Mermaids on Parade" in Norfolk
"Horsemania" in Lexington, KY
And in Rhode Island, "Rhode Island, The Birthplace of Fun" - 31 Mr. Potato Heads, 6 feet tall, around the state.
Even Baltimore is thinking of joining the madness: one suggestion: a crab!
Stop the World, I wanna get off!!
Even Baltimore is thinking of joining the madness: one suggestion: a crab!
Whattsa matta, Dan, gettin' crabby? :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ain't me. It's the suggestion of the Baltimore artist who created a 600 pig for Cincy.
I can think of better ways to waste taxpayer money.
I left out one word: pound. It's a 600 pound pig, decked out as a porcine lawyer, yet.
One the NYC cows: betcha at least one gets tagged before the week is over.
Yeah, like another study on the 2nd Ave. line.
Got to the lower level at GCT to see "MetroCow", a cow painted like a standard-issue MetroCard.
MetroCow, a service of MOO.
COWS???
When did cows start roaming the streets of New York?
Unfortunately, I have to do my usual activites at camp not only today but tomorrow! Camp is fun though!
I'm working today, July 3rd. However, this isn't a problem, since:
1) the big fireworks show here in Chicago is on the 3rd instead of the Fourth, and
2) my company's offices overlook Grant Park where the fireworks are held, and the bosses are understanding of employees entering someone else's office to watch the fireworks as long as they don't touch anything.
The trains going home after 10:30pm on the Third are something to see. Well over a million people come to see the fireworks, and they all pretty much leave when the show's over. Both CTA and Metra add lots of specials, of course, but they're still packed to the gills. They pretty much close the east-west streets between Grant Park and the main train stations to all but pedestrians so that the crowds can get to the stations faster.
Wish I was--I'm having a very boring weekend!
Hope the ships are good tom'w.
I'm at home today, I went for a nice ride around LI (breaking in new 95" motor. Stock compression - high compression heads/pistons this fall). Not very long though, My arms are sunburnt something major :(
Now I need to get long sleve shirts and remember to bring my dirtbag biker jacket down from Hartford next time I come home.
Oh yeah, interesting thing I saw today. A sign promoting the electrification of the Ronkonkoma branch. 5 Points to whomever understands the humor behind that, 10 to whomever can tell me where it is..
My shift from 11am yesterday ran until 3:30am today, does that count?
I'm working at a summer camp so I just got off. I have tomorrow free, though.
Your friendly transit workers will be on duty July 3rd and 4th and 5th and 6th......! But if you have seniority (like me) you're on vacation!
I did. 2 trips from Mott to Bowling Green and tomorrow off.
I worked today. It sucked, but I got a great view of the naval armada moving up NY harbor from my window at 2 World Trade Center.
This Sunday there was track work being done on the Dyre Avenue line for most of the day.
Throughout the day, in 5-10 minute intervals, the driver of the diesel locomotive would blow the horn. Sometimes the horn would have one, two, three, or four blasts.
A question came to me. Why is the horn blown at such frequent intervals? I passed by the train station and the work train appeared pretty stationary. Do the number of horn blasts have certain meaning?
Thanks.
Same thing happen over here on the 3 line a couple of weeks ago? This was like 9am on a Sat. morning. People are still sleeping..........
3TM
07/03/2000
[Same thing happen over here on the 3 line a couple of weeks ago? This was like 9am on a Sat. morning. People are still sleeping..........]
3TM
I guess they weren't sleeping much longer! Rise and shine TA style !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, Mike.
Since I've become a qualified Motorman/Conductor of trolley cars up at the Branford Electric Railway, I had to learn the meanings of different bell and horn signals as part of the qualifiying test. The ones we use are similar or the same as standard American Railroad signaling. I assume NYCT uses the same signaling system.
1 bell or horn blast = stop at next available station or opportunity to do so. (train would of course already be in motion for this)
2 bells or horn blasts = proceed forward
3 bells or horn blasts = STOP AT ONCE (emergency on trackbed)
4 bells or horn blasts = proceed backwards
Again, I'm not 100% sure that NYCT uses exactly the same audio-signalling, but I would suspect it is similar if not the same.
Doug aka BMTman
There's an article in the Daily News at http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-07-02/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-71979.asp
about the cooling system planned for the hottest and busy stations at 42nd Grand Central and Union Square. It looks like they may only provide minimal cooling. Hasn't the TA tried exhaust fans? The only fans they install blow hot air around.
If I can cool my hot apartment with exhaust fans, why can't the TA cool the subways with them?
Also couldn't the money have gone toward installing platform doors to keep out the heat?
Couldn't installing an exhaust fan(s) blowing out a grate on one side of the subway station, and an intake fan(s) on the other side, bring cooler air from outside into the subway? Or is it just too big of an area to cool?
[about the cooling system planned for the hottest and busy stations at 42nd Grand Central and Union Square. It looks like they may only provide minimal cooling. Hasn't the TA tried exhaust fans? The only fans they install blow hot air around.
If I can cool my hot apartment with exhaust fans, why can't the TA cool the subways with them?
Also couldn't the money have gone toward installing platform doors to keep out the heat?
Couldn't installing an exhaust fan(s) blowing out a grate on one side of the subway station, and an intake fan(s) on the other side, bring cooler air from outside into the subway? Or is it just too big of an area to cool?]
Nah, they could cool it if they wanted. In fact, I suspect they could get by without fans at all if they put barriers and ventillation grates at the right places in the tunnels, because the trains would act as pistons.
using forced air of any kind around tunnels as filled with people as the NY City Subway tunnels is not a good idea. (Look at the London Metro station fire back in the '80's) However, passive ventilation using the draft of trains as Josh suggests is a good way to safely provide some degree of temperature control for subway patrons.
using forced air of any kind around tunnels as filled with people as the NY City Subway tunnels is not a good idea. (Look at the London Metro station fire back in the '80's) However, passive ventilation using the draft of trains as Josh suggests is a good way to safely provide some degree of temperature control for subway patrons.
A draft will spread the flames more quickly. Lack of forced ventilation will cause suffocation. Choose your poison.
The reason why the T/A may be lagging on A/c for stations is simple - it would use a HUGE amount of electricity to do it with traditional (compressor/refridgerant) based methods.
And airconditioning stations useing normal methods would mean plugging up all the holes in stations and platform doors. The former would be difficult, the latter, while desierable, would lead to numerous operational and maintenance difficulties.
What I would try, if I were the TA, at some station as an experiment, would be:
a) ventilation blowers to suck hot air out of the stations - I bet these could be implementaed somwhere for less than $10,000.
b) Useing water mains as a sources for "chilled water". I'm assuming NYC water supplies are fairly cold (50 or so degrees would be enough). Simply use this as a supply of cold water for otherwise normal chilled water evaporaters. This might lead to some actual cooling, though I'm not sure how much.
This is the system that the TA is allegedly trying. The only difference appears that they are using some of the chilled water from the Grand Central Terminal cooling system.
They have placed 43 units on the ceilings directly above the platforms.
They the delay is constant, they should be turned on by August. I would reserve judgement as to whether or not this is a bust until then. I would also be curious as to why.
Also couldn't the money have gone toward installing platform doors to keep out the heat?
Different car types have doors that align differently. Redbird, R-62(a), R-142(a) all have different door alignments. The R-142 cab cars have doors that align differently than the blind motors (trailers)! Platform doors won't work on the B division because 75' and 60' cars have different door alignments.
Phoenix Street Railway Update 07/02/00
Mesa Arizona
City Council Has bugeted $3m To study an extension of the Phoenix Street Railway East From Tempe City Line 4 Miles to Downtown Mesa. The Study Is going to take 2 years.
Tempe Arizona
City Transit & Mayor Agree to extend Phoenix Street Railway 3.5 Miles east to Mesa City Line. This will Extend "Line 1" to 25.5 miles when complete In 5-7 Years.
For More Info Go to These Phoenix Street Railway Web Sites:
www.valleymetro.maricopa.gov/busbook/Transit2000/index.html
Offical City Of Phoenix Web Site
www.valleyconnections.com Valley Connections Newsletter
www.phoenixtrolley.com Phoenix Street Railway Museum
www.valleymetro.maricopa.gov Valley Metro Transit
While watching Good Morning America today, I noticed that the set included what looked like a mosaic subway tile, lettered "TIMES SQ," on the wall next to the large window overlooking Times Square.
Is that a real station tile, an "authentic" reproduction, or an example of creative license?
For all I know, this was creative license, as this is on ground level at the 44th Street-Broadway building where GMA is based.
Well it might be an authentic reproduction of the original tiles on the platform where the shuttle now runs. Which is the same as creative license since it is in a TV studio. Just look in the window next time you're at 44 & Bway.
Being that Flushing-Main street is one of the busier terminals in the subway system, connecting to bus lines throughout Queens, will the Wendy's there ever re-open? I sure hope so. The horrible shooting should not leave a permanent scar on an already blighted downtown area?
Or will Wendy's not re-open the location, even if in another spot?
It's already been closed for a long time, and I usually always ate there, so did alot of other people.
I think that if the shooting happened somewhere else (Long Island) it would've re-opened by now. It was a horrible tragic event but Flushing has to move forward or it will continue rotting away.
If history repeats itself it will probably not re-open. McD's never re-opened San Ysidro in California, in fact they tore it down and re-built, IIRC, in another part of town. I do not expect that Wendys to ever re-open.
Peace,
ANDEE
That could mean downtown Flushing could be without a Wendy's for a long time to come. I remember hearing residents complain about the Main Street subway re-construction disturbing the area but I think something else is going on.
Caldor has closed and has not been replaced. Neither has the corner space (Woolworth?). Also Nine West outlet closed (no replacement) and also the China antique market (I think it's by Dunkin Donuts). There are many other places I'm sure that have also closed. We can now add Wendy's to that list. I know they were building a little Chinese mini-mall on Main street a few blocks south of the trestle but last time I look it still remains 80% vacant.
No more will I actually "shop" in Flushing anymore when I get off the 7 train because there's really nothing there, and most places close up 6 or 7pm. It's just off my train and onto the bus, Flushing aint worth hanging around anymore.
Seven years ago there was a sniper shooting in Commack, LI. A moron shot from the hills south of Jericho Tpke. at random into the North Shore Diner, killing an innocent customer a week or two before his daughter's wedding.
The diner was closed for several days. It reopended as the North Shore Diner. When it was sold, the name was changed to Commack Diner, but the etched glass mirror of a woman and titled Miss North Shore remained. The diner was recently sold and the new name is.........(you guessed it) NORTH SHORE DINER.
Goes to show that people have a short memory.
I know that if my father, brother or mother were one of the victims, out of respect I would not want that establishment to re open.
I think it should re-open but not in the same spot. There are plenty of vacant buildings in Flushing downtown that Wendy's could move into.
If I was the owner (I assume that its a franchise & not company owned) I would have reopened as son as possible. I certainly wouldn't let those punk murderers put me out of business!!! I see no reason to close the place at all.
Not that I would ever own a fast food place anyway. I consider fast food places as types of murderers also, with deep frying and clogged arteries as their murder weapon. The same way I could never own a tobacco store.
I was in Flushing (just going straight from 7 train to my bus) and noticed Wendy's is still boarded up, and the many letters and writings on the board, plus graffitti make it really creepy. Part of the wooden board was torn off and you could see inside. The lights were on, tables there, and a sign blocking the staff entrance. It looked just like it did when I peeked through last month in a smaller hole.
It was busy at the time outside (8pm) and I can't see Wendy's is ignoring re-opening. As somebody said a few days ago, after the diner shootings on LI they were re-open within a week. If Wendy's and the community are uncomfortable re-opening in that spot, there are plenty of other spots downtown they could come to.
It was a horrible shooting but they should not let the killers put a permanent dent in Flushing's economy. Right now that vacant Wendy's with police barracaides and boards with decaying pieces of paper with writing is a major eyesore in such a busy area. Why such eyesores linger in Flushing has many reasons. Is it because Flushing is unappealing to national chains?
I have a feeling if the shooting happened on Long Island Wendy's would have been open again by now, even though Flushing Wendy's is busier than Wendy's on Long Island due to it's proximity to major bus and subway lines for straphangers.
What's even more bizarre is that there are are now TWO McDonalds a half block from each other: the old one on Main next to the stricken Wendy's, and a new one on the north side of Roosevelt halfway between Main and Union, where the new entrance (the one with the seldom-operating escalators) is. One hopeful sign: a STARBUCKS!!
As a life-long resident of Whitestone, College Point and Flushing, it is pretty discouraging to see large abandoned spaces where Caldor and Woolworth used to be. There is, however, no drop-off in the number of people shopping there. Go down any weekend afternoon. You can barely move in vehicle or on foot. With Stern's the only major department store left, the focus seems to be on the 99-cent 'bargain' stores that proliferate on Roosevelt east of Main. Main itself on both sides of Roosevelt is now the domain of Chinese and Korean business.
The white middle-class that was the staple of downtown Flushing shopping for so many decades has pretty much chucked it all for the free parking at the Island's malls. Likewise, many of the people who would come off the subway and stop at Gertz and Alexanders before hopping their bus home to Whitestone or Bayside now use the Queens Surface express buses directly into the city- anything so as now to have to ride the trains with "all THESE people" (as expressed by displaced express bus commuters forced onto the '7' every time there's a DOT wildcat strike).
Now if Sanitation would only enforce the rules against businesses using the sewers as their own private garbage cans. The stench on the streets and in the station are unbearable, and it hasn't gotten seriously hot yet!
The stench in Flushing of garbage and sewers is unbearable.
It stinks more than anywhere in Manhattan (even Chinatown!).
It seems other parts of Queens such as Jackson heights and Elmhurst it also smells.
Smelliest part of Flushing is by the RR trestle, also along Roosevelt avenue west of Main street.
It's looking more like Jamaica with all the 99 cent stores. I like cheap stores too, but at least the ones in Chinatown have a better selection and a much wider range of Chinese goods. Plus alot of stores in Chinatown have air conditioning now, something most small businesses in Flushing don't.
Flushing, while it may be busy is mostly due to transit ridership (major bus xfer point and 7 train) is in a downward spiral. Until community leaders realize what is going on it will continue. Consider Wendy's another casualty in the decline of chain/mainstream business in Flushing. That and along with appearance and smells, Flushing is the toilet of NYC.
The official NYC Transit homepage has schedules that can be downloaded for each subway line. These schedules are in Adobe Acrobat format. When I visited the city on Saturday I saw printed versions of the same schedules posted at several subway stations. Are these printed schedules available to the public, and if so, where can they be obtained?
- Jim (RailBus)
NYS Laws - Public Authorities Law
Title 9 - NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY
§ 1204. General powers of the authority....
16-a. The authority shall establish and publish or cause to be published schedules for all passenger transportation services under its operation. Such schedules shall include the estimated departure and arrival time at each terminal point of each route except that, on lines where the headway time during the period between six A.M. and seven P.M. is less than ten minutes, such headway time alone may be listed for that period. Such schedules shall also show the elapsed running time between the terminal and each station. Schedules shall be made available at each facility on the applicable route at which tokens or tickets are sold and shall be posted at each appropriate station operated by the authority.
You're entitled to one.
Does any NYCT location have the schedules available for every line? Jay Street, perhaps?
- Jim (RailBus)
The Jay Street Information Center does have the Schedule handout for most of the lines or you can ask the Station Agent for the schedules of the lines that stop at that station.
I haven't been to Jay St. in a while, but the last time I was there they ones they had in the brochure stand were somewhat out of date. Not sure if the guy behind the counter has any current ones.
Hi Folks it seems as if MY R36 cars are falling apart :0( Im seeing HUGE holes on the sides the paint is fading and the graffiti isnt coming off what gives? I hopre this dosent continueps 9724s AC was hot air. Regards Tom :0(
07/03/2000
[Hi Folks it seems as if MY R36 cars are falling apart :0( Im seeing HUGE holes on the sides the paint is fading and the graffiti isnt coming off what gives?]
The mainline Redbirds of course suffer the same rust problem. For one, blame the graffitti (alkaline) wash and maybe even the polyurethane (sp?) exterior paint which I heard harbors moisture.
Bill "Newkirk"
And on top of that, many G.O.H.’d W.F. R-36’s today have side doors which look like they were modeled after those of mainline cars, in terms of their window placement. After all, the original W.F. R-36’s (and the W.F. R-33S’s) had side doors whose window placement dimensions were as the R-32’s and R-38’s.
Maybe they used second-hand doors from disacrded R-17's and R-21/22's
WF R-36s, 9560-9769 had their doors replaced, about 7-8 years ago, while they were overhauled cosmetically for yet another time. The doors are new, not anything used on the subway previously.
During that time, WF R-36s ran on the 5 for a brief time, while mainline R-33s went over to the 7.
-Stef
Which reminds me, the few W.F. R-36’s in use on the 6 line, and I think a few mainline R-36’s on the 7 line.
I do recall there was a time where mainline R-36s ran on the 7 for a time, but I believe this to be an infrequent occurrence. Seeing WF R-36s on the 6 is not unusual though.
-Stef
No mainlines are currently assigned to Corona, it'd be a pain in the ass to get them there. I believe 20 WF cars and all R-36 ML cars are assigned to Weschester yd.
Try 9478-9557 to Westchester Yard.
-Stef
They're still maintaining them to some extent. There are always cars at Coney Island Main Shop to get some work done. There were about ten cars there tonight.
Stripping the R-17 of it's anti-graphiti paint at Branford has revealed what is probally a common problem in the Red Bird fleet, i.e. the TA painted over the problem instead of: cleaning out the plugged drain holes, rot at the conner of the windows, rot behind the number plate, rust everywhere water could sit for a while (on top of headlight housing, seams on the roof, etc.).
I assume our friends in Kingston have found the same with thier R-16.
Mr t__:^)
And that's why we're taking so much time with the car. We need to correct the flaws on the car, so they don't become a problem in the long run. I will certainly not let this car detriorate the way the fleet is falling apart here in NY.... The TA needs to get their fleet rolling as quick as possible, so they just spray one coat of paint on top of another, and get them back out on the road. The car's not only my pride and joy, but others enjoy it as well. Perhaps when all is said and done with car scrapping, 6688 may be the only Redbird left.
-Stef
Bite your tung my friend !
That would be a realy sad state of affairs to have only one R-17 & one R-16 to represent the once mighty fleet of Red Birds. But then many other "important/unique" examples have vanished in this city.
Mr t__:^)
I would hope if they could find a way to hide a group of Low Vs for several years from the scrapper back in the 1960s, they could at least find a way to save a six-car train of Redbirds from the group that's supposed to survive the R-142s entry into service.
Yeah. What's disappered over the years? The C-Types, Mutlis, Bluebird, and others. It's sad the TA never retained a Hi-V for their Museum....
I don't mean to get picky, but the R-16 was never a Redbird, although the 16 and 17 are similar in style, with the exception of the fact that the 17 is the smaller of the two. For the 16, try "Greenbird", which is what she is being potrayed as presently.
-Stef
If memory serves me right the only real redbirds are the R26,28,29,33, and R36. I never heard that term applied to any SMEE cars until the rebuild program with the whole bunch painted red and that's when they got that name. Sometime in the 80's? [Maybe it went back to l962 with the delivery of R29's but I don't recall such]. Yes, too bad a High-V wasn't saved for the Transit Museum. Back to the Rl7 etc, even though the R17 were painted a maroon when new I don't believe that term ever applied to them, the similar R21 or 22 [which were Pullman Green when new]either. With the R12,14,15, and 17 getting painted red in the 60's for some reason the R21 and R22 escaped.
This is true. The term Redbird comes from a recent time, used to catregorize a group of subway cars painted red. But you could also call the R-17s from 1955 and the R-29s from 1962 Redbirds also, even if the nickname was never used.
We lost various pieces of equipment over the years. Wouldn't it have been great to have a working train of Multis or some other unique piece?
Why the R-21s and 22s escaped the red pain treatment in the 60s is unclear to me. Whatever the case maybe, they would not escape the MTA paint treatment.
-Stef
In James Clifford Greller’s book New York City Subway Cars, there was a picture of a train of various IRT cars, and in that train there was an R21 #7075 which used green amongst the exterior color paint scheme as had been used on the C train. As for why other R21 and ’22 types escaped the “RedBird” repainting, my guess is that such repaintings took place around the same time these particular sets of cars were on the verge of being retired.
07/08/2000
W.B.
The other R-21/22's escaped the "Redbird" paint scheme was because they were never intended to be graffitti free. The R-21/22's were being replaced by the R-62/62A's anyway. The Redbird paint was applied to the R-26,28,29 & 33's because of the general overhaul which would buy time until their ultimate replacement. This will happen with the R-142/142A's.
R- 21 #7075 was repainted into that R-10 green because this car and an R-17 were "spares" for the grafitti free "green train" that ran on the #2 in the late 80's. That green train was not an overhauled consist even though it the married pairs were air conditioned. The cars were ultimately overhauled and given the Redbird repaint.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right. In addition to that, 7075 and 6677 were a supplement to the 10 car train of R-33s painted green in the mid 80s. Why paint a car in the redbird scheme when it's on the virge of being retired? There is no point. 21s, 22s, and others were all heading for scrap.
The green R-17 sounds intriguing though.
-Stef
I have never seen the MS in person, but have seen pictures of them and they are a fascinating bunch. The closest thing to them that exists today is the 1928 D-Type Triplex, which I will try and ride tomorrow. It is indeed sad that at least one set of MS was not saved for posterity. It is ALSO a shame that at least one CONSIST of R-10 was not saved. I believe they have enough R30 left around the system to make up a train (some cars are not currently operational).
wayne
Yeah, if you do go out there, have a blast. I'll be tending to a retired subway car in CT, while the D-Types are on the road.
Scrap Notes For You Meanwhile: 1701-1705, the R-62As which were reported to have some kind of fire damage recently, are on the road. Spotted them at Pelham Bay Park last weekend.
R-36 Sighting: I think 9500-01 are back from the dead! I spotted what I believed to be the cars moving in a transfer yesterday. Can anyone confirm this at Westchester Yard or 207th St Yards?
-Stef
Thanks, Stef. Tending to #6688 is a worthwhile task. I'll take some pictures if the sun cooperates. I hope we go express from 7th Avenue to Church.
Thanks for the R62A update (they had a little fire under 1701 at 23rd Street not too long ago). The one I'm still wondering about is #1909. Someone said they saw #1910 on the #3 and it was a linked unit. Linked as in 1906-1907-1908-[1909]-1910?
Wayne
No. 1910 is a single unit. Cars 1901-1915, which were formerly of the 6, and were sent over to the 3, remained as single units when they were sent over.
No linked sets reside on the 3, with the exception of borrowed cars from the 6, 1886-1890, and 1896-1900.
1909? Is there any hope for her?
-Stef
I couldn't agree with you more on the R-10s. They should have saved a few more of them, at least enough for a four-car train. That way, there wouldn't be any need to rely on memories alone.
How many still exist? From what I'm reading here, I think I would have loved these cars. Aren't they single units, so one car could be operated alone?
I believe 3184 still exists, that's it. 1 car moves are not allowed anywhere (if they were the money trains wouldn't be in pairs).
3184 and 3189 are left. The R-10 is compatible with all other cars, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to see it running with R-30s, 32s, etc.
-Stef
If you enjoy speed with a higher-than-average noise level, you would have loved the R-10s. When they ran on the A, the CPW express dash was second to none. When a northbound A train bore down on 81st St. at around 50 mph, it was pure rolling thunder - from the station platform. They weren't intolerably loud in their heyday; it was only during their final years that their noise level became really bad.
Yes, they were single unit cars; however, you wouldn't have seen them operating alone except perhaps in the yards.
This is true. The term Redbird comes from a recent time, used to catregorize a group of subway cars painted red. But you could also call the R-17s from 1955 and the R-29s from 1962 Redbirds also, even if the nickname was never used.
We lost various pieces of equipment over the years. Wouldn't it have been great to have a working train of Multis or some other unique piece?
Why the R-21s and 22s escaped the red paint treatment in the 60s is unclear to me. Whatever the case maybe, they would not escape the MTA paint treatment.
-Stef
The R-30 was also painted red before it was retired.
Actually, the rot is only in the locations of the emergency dropdown windows. Although we did find the drainage holes plugged by dirt under the seats, the majority of water seepage entering the cars and causing rust damage is under the lips of the side windows with the emergency handles. Perhaps the last coat that 6398 received by the TA, (silver/blue stripe) was its most protective coating. A Zinc-based primer should be found under that coat and the paint scheme was not a temporary coating by all means since it was applied to all LAHT cars, some being just over ten years of age. We did find the combination white/red tail light assembly water damaged but will not restore the tail light to the dual lamp purpose.
>>last coat that 6398 received (silver/blue stripe)
Aye, we found that coat, Mr. Engine Brake, Sir.
1SF9
Hi Folks, Yes 4 LIRR MP-15s have gone to MNRR for a long term stay. It could be for good!!!!!!! I dont know the # s If I can find out I ll post it. Regards Tom.
Neat. We now know there will be MP-15s running 40 years from now! ;)
Interestingly there were a couple of MP-15 in the Fresh Pond yard a couple of Saturdays' ago when I joined the "Field Trip". They were still in the LIRR colors & seemed to be in the freight car area vs. motive power area. Did any one on the trip get photos of them, I may have ... will pick up my fime tonight.
Mr t__:^)
I rode Rte. 36 today and the operator talked to a supervisor around
50th st. , so I knew something was up. We got into the portal , past 37 th-University stop, then got stopped behind another car at 36-Sansom. Something was said about downed wires up ahead. We crept
forward about 10 car lengths but sat there for 25 minutes. Supervisors decided that was it and we "backed up" to the 36th st. station! The operator told us to exit to the street, and someone would be there to take care of us. Well, no one was there and we all
boarded a Rte. 21 bus to center city via. Chestnut St. What a trek!
Always something happening on SEPTA! The news report on the way home said " Subway surface cars are being diverted to 40th St. because of power problems." If we would have been routed there in the first place,we all could have taken the "el" into center city!
Chuck Greene
It seems to me that everyday the N trains Rushhour
service gets worse.Over the last month my waits at
Pacific St. are getting much longer.It used to be
an average of 8-10 minutes but lately its been
10-15 long minutes during rush hour.Its not that
the line is bottlenecked because 2 R trains usually come. Any ideas on why the N is running slower?
They are waiting for Sea Beach Fred to Show up, and try to give it some class, if that could ever happen to the Slow Beach Local
They are waiting for Sea Beach Fred to show up, and try to give it some class, if that could ever happen to the Slow Beach Local.
Except that class is out for the summer... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then again, the delays may be due to another cause. Heypaul told us that Sea Beach riders need a pass to get on the Coney Island boardwalk and that those wearing N train t-shirts would need to get a blood test, too. Maybe the N should be terminated at 86th rather than going to Coney in order to eliminate these delays. Are you there dear old Fred?
Gotcha 'Q--heard every word you said. I'm getting well known on this site, but sometimes I think I'd be better off if I wasn't. At any rate, the Sea Beach to Coney Island on August 16. Anybody want to join me there?
Who makes T-shirts with the N logo on them? I have an "A" and a "D" train T-shirt but I've never heard of N-train ones. Oh well. Long Live 7REDZ anyhow. Both of my subway T-shirts are made by something called "NYC Subway Line - officially licensed by the MTA" - does anyone know if these guys have a website?
I have a long sleeve "N" Train shirt as well as a Long-Sleeve "7" & "A" shirt with has the lines map on the left arm. I'm also a proud owner of a D, F, J, 1, and R short sleeve shirt.
Below is a link to the NYC Subway Line Webpage:
NYC Subway Line Gear
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
went to the site, but couldn't find any of the plain colored t-shirts with just a line on them. has anyone ever seen tees with the line in a diamond (i.e. rush hour only) instead of a circle?
Perhaps they've installed a few more GTs and WDs along 4th Ave.
Today I ride the Q up to Queensbridge-- Yes, there are a couple of places I hadn't gotten around to ride! Riding back I parked myself at the front window of the slant-40. If you've never seen it, the 63rd St. tunnel is unlike anything else on the subway. The construction ranges from high arch ceiling covering both tracks; single arch; and deep-bore tunnel. Lots of space along the sides of the tracks in certain places, and the turnouts for 2nd Ave. are clearly visible. Roosevelt Island station is very "Parisien" (a side-platform station with no center columns) and is similar to some of the deep tunnel IRT stations on the west side. I wondered why they built 21st St-Queensbridge as a side platform station and not an island station since they knew it was going to be a terminal station for many years.
Anyway, you all probably know this already :)
-Dave
yes I do !! I shot this day & night last year ......question does the Q run on the weekends ??......
anyway if you want the vidieo of this ??.........thank you ...
07/03/2000
[......question does the Q run on the weekends ??...... ]
Nope, The (Q) is a weekday thing only. It's the (B) on the weekends.
Except for the (N) and the (L), these R40 Slants go to sleep for the weekend!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, except for this weekend, the B hasn't run to Queensbridge since the Puerto Rican day parade. Instead, they run some BS to 57th and 7th. BTW: Why is the BS an R-68a? Do they run one B up to Queensbridge for the sole purpose of becoming the shuttle? It'd be much easier if they took one of the slants out of the tunnel and ran it as the shuttle.
I have ridden slant 40's on the shuttle. It happens occasionally I guess. It was cool to see the Call-on at Second ave up close out the window.
Is the night shuttle between Queensbridge and 2 Ave runnig local or
express along 6 Av ?
I believe it is a local, the one time I rode it the local tracks were used.
By running it local, there is now a local train every 10 minutes between 59 and Houston St. between midnight and 5:00 AM, on every N/S line except the Broadway-BMT line. Not bad service at 3AM....
Local. The shuttle cannot access the 2nd Ave. station from the express tracks without a switchover at W4th St.
...it .....figures ......
<<< Except for the (N) and the (L), these R40 Slants go to sleep for the weekend! >>>
On Saturday, there was at least one train of Slant R40's operating on the B. Same thing the last time I rode on the B on a Saturday, so maybe this is a regular occurence.
- Jim (RailBus)
If you look in CI yd on weekends, you'll see several sets of R-40slants signed up as Bs. I have counted last weekend 3 operating sets.
well i guess keeping those slants running is just a good way to B
I’ve been to the 63rd Street extension a couple times. Last I was there, earlier this year, I was struck by the ads and subway maps from 5-7 years ago which haven’t been changed. But I agree, the design of the line is remarkable. I.M.H.O., the travel from 57th Street - 6th (or 7th) Avenue to Lexington Avenue - 63rd Street is reminiscent of the travel from 96th Street and Broadway to 110th and Lenox . . . albeit somewhat brighter. (I could see why you’d compare all this to the west-side deep-tunnel IRT sections.)
Thats fine for me,but the question of the day would be,'' When are we gonna see the connector begin test runs''?
Probably when the light it up. I already can see signals and the tunnel is done, but they still haven't put up tunnel lighting. I believe the transit professional formerly known as mr. R46 posted that a work train has already gone through.
<was going to be a terminal station for many years.>>
Probably for the same reason they did it at Flatbush Ave. on the Nostrand line -- they assumed it would only spend a brief time as a terminal, the same way Dupont Circle on the Red Line down in DC spent only a few years as the end point of that line.
The Queensbridge situation took a little longer to rectify that Dupont Circle, but it's got Flatbush on the 2/5 beat by about half a century...
Could the reason be that the only advantage to having an island platform at a terminus is convenience to the passengers?
O.K. so the IRT had plans to extend the Nostrand beyond Flatbush? If they were going to make it that long why in the world was it only built as a two-track then?
I grew up in San Francisco and the first thing I thought when I rode through the 63rd street tunnel was. "It looks like BART." The construction methods seemed similar.
Well, in some ways, the methods were the same. Both the Transbay tube and the river tunnel portion of the 63rd St. line were built by the sunken tube method.
Hello,
Does anyone have any idea why there's a CTA el car (half of a pair, I think it's number 6719) in the Steamtown collection? It's the only piece of electric equipment on the property. Does it belong maybe to the "Trolley Museum" that is starting up there? (The trolley museum appeared to be closed yesterday, 7/2/00. Thought that was a little odd for a holiday weekend.)
-Dave
That's interesting, because half a married pair is bascially useless without the other half of the pair. On CTA's PCC L cars, one car carried the MG set and the other carried the batteries.
If it's 6719, the other car should be either 6718 or 6720. I can't remember how the pairs went. They should have the other car somewhere, they are usually split for shipping.
The CTA always assigns the numbers xx01 & xx02 to the first married pair of a new series of rail cars. (You're right, Dan; married halves are shipped separately.) So if 6719 is "all by its lonesome" at Steamtown, then 6720 shouldn't be far behind.
I BELIEVE THAT IS THE CAR WHICH IS HEADED FOR THE SMITHSONIAN. THEY ONLY WANTED ONE SO IT'S MATE, 6720, THE LAST PCC TYPE EL CAR EVER BUILT WILL BE SCRAPPED IF IT WAS NOT ALREADY.
-MARK
Actually, 6720 was not the last Chicago PCC type L car built. The single unit cars (1-50) series came later, so no. 50 would be the last.
-- Ed Sachs
Perhaps one of you who knows more about the single unit PCC cars can answer this:
I rode #48 up at the HCRR last summer, and it doesn't have either version of the standard PCC globe lights (the ones that look a little like an eyeball, or the ones with the concentric[sp?] circles found on the all electric cars), but has rectangular covers over the bulb enclosures, like the ones found on GM Old Look buses. Why is this?
-Robert King
Toronto specified them that way. I don't know why; perhaps someone else can shed light on that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was asking about the L car's globes...
The TTC PCCs had standard globes on the lights. I know for a fact that the "eyeball" globes with the single frosted band and clear centre were used on some second hand cars, Cleveland, and Louisville are two examples, and the air PCCs I've seen, both TTC and other systems. The other variation of globe, which was common on the TTC's firsthand all electric PCCs, with the multiple frosted rings, seems to also have been used on other PCCs as well. I believe the Newark cars, and Philadelphia all electrics have these. The PCC L car from Chicago is the odd one out...
The Chicago PCC L cars are an interesting vehicle on the whole as well.
-Robert King
Most of Chicago's PCC L cars actually were equipped with "eyeball-globe" type interior lighting --- either variation. The only exceptions were the last 50 "married" units 6671-6720, delivered in 1958, and the single-unit cars 1-50, which arrived a year later. They featured the rectangular light fixtures instead. (I don't know why.)
All but the first 200 of the CTA's 770 PCC L cars were built using body parts from the system's short-lived fleet of PCC streetcars. The resurrected streetcar parts included seats, windows (with the interior sashes), and lighting. (Yep, "eyeball transplants".)
Yes, Chicago's Green Hornets (570 out of 600, anyway) served as organ donors for the bulk of the 6000-series fleet. Virtually everything was used except the carbodies themselves, which were scrapped.
27 or 28 Green Hornets were scrapped without any components being salvaged. I find it surprising that no one was interested in them for museum collections at the time. 4391, the lone survivor, was acquired by a private group - the Railway Preservation Society, I believe - before winding up at IRM in Union.
One car, 7078, was destroyed by fire in a collision with a gasoline truck. One other car, 7205, sustained damage when it split a switch and wrapped itself around a safety island. It was rebuilt with parts from 7078 and returned to service. There is some debate as to whether or not it served as an organ donor.
Steve, you really do know your Chicago transit history, I can see that. Regarding lack of historical interest, what's equally astonishing to me is that many entire series of older Chicago streetcars (as well as buses and trolley buses) disappeared without a trace.
Incidentally, there were 33 people incinerated aboard 7078 in the wake of its fiery collision with the gasoline truck. Many of the victims were found pressed against the doors in a futile attempt to escape. (I believe that emergency exit cords by each door were mandated for all transit vehicles as a result of this tragedy.) It happened in May, 1950 at 63rd and State Streets on the city's South Side. Apparently the motorman, who had a horrible driving record, ran a red light. There was even some speculation that he may have been intoxicated.
-Dan Terkell
Two bits of information.
There is a large collection of Chicago streetcars and trolley buses...check the roster at IRM (Illinois Railway Museum).
There was no "red light" at the 7078 incident. The streetcar was being diverted into an off-street turnaround a few hundred feet north of the intersection. A flooded viaduct was the cause. I was only a kid at the time, but lived only one half mile away. I can't respond about supervision of the move, who had the right of way, or the driving record of the trucker and the motorman.
I do remember the news accounts mentioned the panic of the passengers who pressed up against the doors, preventing the "blinker" doors from opening. Window openings were covered with bars and in those days, there were no such things as window exits and roof top escape hatches.
David Harrison
Dave,thanks for setting me straight on the 7078 incident. The information I had was strictly anecdotal. I guess the passage of a half century can work wonders on one's memory.
I am aware of the IRM collection. It's very impressive. But it's still true that no examples of several large series of CSL or CTA equipment were ever saved. (e.g., early Brills, "Turtlebacks", "Nearsides", etc.)
-Dan Terkell
The 7078 accident had an effect on systems other than CTA. Capital Transit in DC converted their 1100, 1200 and 1300 class PCCs from blinker to outward folding doors after the Chicago tragady. PCC spects were changed after 1950 to have only folding doors on PCC cars.
The retrofits and changes in specs seemed to make perfect sense. However, the CTA continued to order train cars with blinker doors throughout the 1950s and '60s. All but a few of the last series of such cars (delivered in 1969) are still in service.
Instead of discontinuing the use of blinker doors, the CTA specified emergency cords by each door for all post-tragedy vehicle orders. Although I don't know this for a fact, I'd imagine that most other transit systems did the same.
-Dan Terkell
Actually, no other system that kept blinker doors on their PCC's did anything else. Baltimore, Cincinatti, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Detroit, Los Angeles, St. Louis. Only DC changed theirs, and TTC retrofitted any blinker door car they bought second hand.
Strangly, GM brought back the blinker door on their Fishbowls, only they called them "slide-glide" doors. Still had to be pulled in and pushed out to open without air.
The TTC didn't start retrofitting blinker doors right away - only after it was discovered that they were more drafty in wintertime than the standard folding doors. Besides climate and rendering the fleet more uniform to make maintainance easier, the Chicago accident was very likely encouragement to the TTC to refit folding doors where blinker doors were present as well.
-Robert King
It was my understanding that the ex-Cleveland Pullmans were rushed into service without door refitting or couplers due to a strike at Canadian Westinghouse, which delayed the installation of couplers. There are photos on the Net showing the cars in TTC paint with binker doors and no couplers. I believe the ex-Cleveland/Ex-Louisville cars were also affected, but I've not seen any pictures of them except as MU cars.
True, the blinker doors are almost all gone from Chicago's "L". The 770 PCC are all gone. The 180 Pullman "New Look" 2000 series are gone too, except for the one historical pair that is stored pending the Pullman factory revival now under way. Except for wrecks, the 200 car Budd fleet soldiers on on the Blue Line. These are the last of the blinker doors.
The 2200 series Budds can't run by themselves and must have one 2600 series pair for wheelchair accessibility. The city and the CTA are currently drawing up plans for replacing the Budds, not so much that the Budds are unservicable, but the necessity of pairing up accessible cars to them is a switching headache.
David Harrison
Some additional information regarding the concept being developed at the Simthsonian. The curator is keenly interested in the Madison Wabash station house in the loop and wants to recreate it at the museum. The station house would be salvaged when the station is either modernized or eliminated, in favor of only two stations along the Wabash AV side of the Loop "L". Madison is one of the few Loop stations still in its 1890's form.
The PCC car was desired as this car was the mainstay of the CTA when the expressway median operations developed. Chicago's Congress expressway median route was a pioneer, with two sequels: the Kennedy and the Dan Ryan median routes, The museum exhibit will somehow address the automobile versus rail transit developments of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
David Harrison
07/10/2000
If this car is restored as a museum piece for a display, where will it be displayed at the Smithsonian ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Interestingly enough, I caught a glimpse of a solid 8-car train of 2200s headed away from O'Hare Airport two years ago. It was great to see, especially since I prefer solid trains, but also peculiar since anyone in a wheelchair wouldn't be able to board such a train.
What car is it???
A complete listing of all surviving Chicago streetcars can be found in Chicago Surface Lines, which I believe is now out of print. The list isn't all that great, considering that CSL was at one time the world's biggest street railway system. IRM did manage to acquire most, if not all, specimens from the CTA's private collection. These included Blue Goose 4021 and Old Pullman 460.
Thanks for the compliment. One thing I regret is that I'm too young to remember streetcars in the Windy City. I was all of a year and a half old when car 7213 made the last run on the southern half of the #22 Clark/Wentworth route on June 21, 1958.
It was on May 25, 1950, to be exact, that 7078 hit that gasoline truck. If you know the location, it's right where that railroad overpass cuts diagonally across State St., then 63rd. It's just to the north of the Skyway entrance, only the Skyway didn't exist in 1950. My aunt says she remembers coming home from work that day, and that my grandmother said there had been a tragic streetcar accident in Chicago. I drove past that intersection in 1991, and that tragic accident came to my mind right away.
Interestingly enough, the Green Hornets kept their blinker doors afterwards. Since the CTA was planning to return them to St. Louis Car Co. for recycling anyway, they figured it wasn't worth the trouble to make any changes. I haven't seen any record of emergency cords being added to the Green Hornet fleet.
You're right, Steve. None of the transit fleet that existed at the time of the accident was retrofitted with emergency cords (as far as I know, anyway). Every new rail car and bus delivered to the CTA since the tragedy has been equipped with them. For easy visibility, cords in the buses have always featured red plastic knobs nicknamed "cherries".
Sorry for the confusion, I apparently misunderstood the question!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is true, only one car is held for the Smithsonian. They plan an exhibit depicting a subway/elevated platform and an expressway median platform and had room for only the one car. 6719 was chosen because it has the conductor position. The car will not be operable. Steamtown is only storing the car.
The retangular light fixtures came about because the manufacturer used what was available at that time.
By delivery, cars 1,2,3, and 4 followed 50.( 1960 versus 1959) The 1-4 group came with 100 HP motors and other high speed appliances and could do 75 mph. Cars 6127-6130 were also retrofitted and the CTA could put out an eight car train of high speed equipment. This led the way to specifying high speed performance for all following CTA car orders.
Two years ago I bought 6719 and 6720, together with cars 22, 33, and 35 in a scrap sale with the intention of having historial car operation on the "L". The support of CTA management never occured and the idea was scrapped. 6719 went to the Smithsonian, 22 went to Illinois Railway Museum, and 35 went to East Troy. 33 has no brake actuators and 6720 is an orphan, yes they'll probably be scrapped.
David Harrison
David,
Thanks for filling us in! Don't ever let it be said you can't get the official answer to anything here on SubTalk. :-)
-Dave
with the intention of having historial car operation on the "L". The support of CTA management never occured and the idea was scrapped.
Oh NO! They wouldn't agree to you storing the cars "on the property"? That's a shame. For a while, things seemed so positive.
Well, at least there's some consolation in the fact that some of your cars went to other museums where they will be preserved.
--Mark
There is a museum in Michigan which bought six 4000-series cars in 1974 or thereabouts; however, they didn't have enough funds to restore them all. Luckily, instead of scrappimg them, they sold four cars to other museums, IIRC, and kept two. My aunt sent me a clipping about it; I'll dig it out and post an update.
David, your proposal to the CTA was a valiant effort. However, I'm not surprised that they nixed the idea. It seems to me that the CTA operates its own pair of vintage rail cars for special occasions: 4271-4272, built by the Cincinnati Car Company in the early 1920s.
Interesting news regarding the five cars you bought. Yesterday morning, I posted a response to Robert King which you might enjoy reading. (July 5, 1:54). Incidentally, I misstated the delivery sequence for Cars 1-50. Thanks for the correction.
-Dan Terkell
Isn't it true that 6201-6770 (or ws it 6720?) had the Green Hornets' 55 hp motors transplanted into them? They also had many other parts cannibalized from the Green Hornets.
Actually the cars 6201-6720 were made from recycled PCC parts to a large degree, almost new trolleys therefore worth recycling at the time.
Today I took the 4:35 MBTA Commuter Train to Mansfield, which is on the Northest Corridor mainline, between Boston and Providence. I knew that the 5:00 ACELA Regional passed by Mansfield about 15 minutes after my "local" commuter train stopped there, so I waited around for it.
The ACELA Regional blew by at 80mph (I believe that is the Maximum Allowable Speed here). The Mansfield platform is eight feet from fence to (low height) platform edge, and I stood as far back from the rail as possible, with my back to the oncoming train. The ensuing wind was pretty strong; I was braced for it, so I was able to hold my ground.
My question is this: When the ACELA Express service begins, and the MAS is raised, what will happen to those who are not "prepared" for this? For example, seniors, disabled, children, etc. I suspect there will be many close calls.
Eight feet sounds like a pretty substantial width for a platform, but when you are there with the train going by at high speed, it sure seems like less!
Hey! Transit and Weather Together! sort of...
Metroliner Service trains routinely blow through Princeton Jct station at 125 mph, with no problems for people standing on the platform. The local track, however, is between the platform and the Metroliner Service track.
Also, I've been there when an E60 powered train went by (presumably at 110 mph) on the local track (to be overtaken by a metroliner on the express track). The engineer blows the heck out of the horn in such cases and no one is caught unaware.
If it was an E-60, there's no way it was going faster than 80mph. I believe 80mph is the maximum allowed speed for thoswe units - they're amazingly unstable at high speeds. I believe the first one actually derailed in testing.
FWIW, they have a bad case of the truck hunting problem that the Acela had /have. Anyway, the E-60's will be ditched in a few years anyway. It's amazing they lasted as long as they have, I've not heard one good thing about them.
IIRC, the E60's early truck hunting problem was solved and I believe they routinely do 110 between Trenton and Elizabeth.
I was in the third car behind one before the problem was fixed, and the yaw was transmitted from car to car, making for an uncomfortable ride.
Bob
Anyone here know what design features cause truck hunting?
Microsoft-type.
"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature!"
-Hank :)
Very funny, Hank. I should have asked what design characteristics cause hunting. Anyone know?
I believe 80mph is the maximum allowed speed for those units - they're amazingly unstable at high speeds.
That was years ago, the problem has long since been fixed. Depending on the train, they run between 90 and 110 mph now. Their only real problem today is that they are wearing out, and even then they're still more reliable than certain AEM-7 units (a problem which is hopefully being addressed by the AC rebuilding).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will again tell that story about my father's "close" encounter with a GG1 while waiting at the Princeton Jct Station.
After being stranded by a local that desided to terminate at PJ, my dad was waiting on the platform for a train to take him to Trenton (he commuted from south Jersey to Newark every day to work at Prudential Insurance. His pass let him ride behind a GG-1 everyday. Lucky!) Anyway he was waiting at the platform when he saw a light down the tracks. He stepped up trackside to board the train. After a bit it dwaned on him that A) the train was not going to stop and B) it was traveling at speed. He stepped back just in time to have a GG-1 pass 2 feet infront of him at c. 100 mph.
A story my dad told me:
Yesterday, NJ Transit decided to run an additonal train on the Bergen County line to help accomodate people going into NY for OP Sail and for the fireworks later. Since the line usually sees about 1 train every 3 hours on Sunday schedule, everyone at Rutherford thought the train approaching was their train, even though it was 2 minutes early. All the passengers were standing right at the platform edge (the platform was very crowded as well). The train blew track clear just before the RR crossing, and only my dad and a few other people knew that the train was not going to stop. Everyone else got the surprise of their life when the GP-40 followed by 4 comet Is flew by the station at about 60 mph. Now, a few factors made the situation seem more frightening for the people at the edge than a normal close encounter: 1 - Hoboken bound trains usually have the cab car first, not the engine. 2 - It was a low platform station. 3 - As I mentioned before, the line sees about 1 train every 3 hours on Sunday, everyone thought it would stop.
The extra train and the train after were both standing room only, and the regular train had to leave about 15 people behind at Harmon cove, there just wasn't enough room.
A couple months ago someone posted something about a novelty tune from the late 1950s (1959 to be exact) "Ambrose" - two people walking through a subway tunnel, for reasons unknown (they were fleeing a disaster?)..... anyway, someone out at eBay has a copy of this up for sale, price: 10 tokens (14.95). The artist is Linda Laurie, the girl who's walking along with Ambrose.
Click here to check it out if you are interested/curious.
wayne
Not interested in buying as I taped it many years ago; just another fan of 50's music [and rail transit] here who remembers it. It was on the Glory label which was a rhythm and blues label.
Believe it or not I have a copy of that. My dad bestowed upon me his collection of 45's and that is on one of them. I remember it because it always struck me as extremely bizzare mixed in with all the music CD's. If my recrod player still works I'll try and record it for youse guys. Does anyone know a good WAV -> MP3 converter?
Here's the schedule for the SOAC train when it ran on the NYCTA way back in 1974.
May 17-18,Jun 14,16-20 on the D
Jun 21,23-28 on the N
Jun 30-Jul 5 on the A
Jul 8-14 on the E
Jul 15-19 on the D
July 23 left for Boston.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks! I'll add that to the soac pages here...
-Dave
And July 15th 2000, Subtalkers will see then once more!!
Right you are Lou ... still time for you last minute Charlies to join us ... may have to bring your sleeping bag if you can't find room at one of the local inns, but am looking forward to a grand time !
Our day starts in the Seashore bus at 9 AM Sat. with Traffic & Weather reports as we begin this "Field Trip".
Mr t__:^)
...and this is one SubTalker who will be re-united with the SOAC cars, since having had the pleasure of "test-riding" them on the Brighton Line during my Erasmus Hall days. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
July 16,1974 there was a fire at the Metropolitan Avenue Terminal
of the BMT Myrtle Avenue Line,about half the platform was destroyed. R-27's 8202 and 8203 were virtually destroyed and R-27 8237 and R-30 8512 were burned beyond repair.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All 4 cars never saw another day of service. The heat was so intense, the cars sagged in the middle. Pictures of them are elsewhere on this site.
I saw a TA notice saying the #7 would be 10 cars as of Friday 6/30 following the PM rush. I thought I had the date correct. Someone also posted on this site that the #7 will be 10 cars over the summer as of this past weekend. The fact of the matter is I was on the #7 today and they had 11 car trains. Either I had the wrong date, the order was rescinded, or it will happen next weekend after the July 4th holiday is over. Time will tell.
An updated Car Service Notice was posted today-it's July 8 for the 10 car trains.
Perhaps a few singles will show up on the mainline. Several summers ago, the R-127s out of 239th St Yard took a vacation while single units filled in on the Refuse Collector. I wouldn't be surprised to see them.
-Stef
The bulletin I saw at Corona yesterday has July 8 as the target date for ten car trainsets. We will see in four days.
As of today outside my boss' window at 1400 EDT they are still 11 cars with the R33 3rd car from the Flusing end. I'm not working there this weekend but will post Monday when I'm listening to my boss, err I'm in his office.
Effective 7-8, 10 cars will be the norm on the 7 for the summer months.
The new SEPTA station at Churchman's Crossing in Delaware opened on Thursday, one of two new stations on the line. The next, Baldwin, is scheduled for next year.
07/03/2000
Yesterday I rode to Coney Island and after lunch I rode the Wonder Wheel. For $3.00 I rode with the expressed purpose for photographing Stillwell Terminal, the approach to West 8th St with the Cyclone in the foreground as well as a wide angle shot of the beach. I did get off one shot of R-68's (D) leaving Stillwell.
If you want a wild photographic vantage point of Coney Island try this out. Just remember to board under the sign "stationary car", the moving cars will prevent to from doing good shooting.
After leaving Coney, I rode a rerouted (B) up the Sea Beach middle. BTW- Sea Beach Fred, your Sea Beach Line stations, roadbed etc. misses you much and sends you their regards !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh, those moving Wonder Wheel cars! The first (and only) time I ever rode the thing was 14 years ago tonight (7/4/86). I didn't know that some of the cars moved; when I went over the top and that car slipped forward (and after dark, no less) I thought I was going to DIE!
Perhaps if I ever get a trip over in the Summer I will get a ride on it as well as the Cyclone.
Simon
Swindon UK
Bring a strong stomach! The ride on the Cyclone is short but rough...at least it was in August 1984 when I rode it. Going over the top of the first hill, all you see is ocean, and as the ride jerks violently on the curves you'll feel like yelling something that sounds like "ocean"!
My love or roller coasters is almost as great as for railways. I suppose they are the same really. Have you any idea how long ago it was built? I only get to come over in March and November and I think it is always closed then.
Many years ago we used to have a wooden one in Battersea Park in London. A brakeman used to stand in the middle to slow it down at the end of the ride. It got in a poor state of repair and one Sunday whist the cars were being hauled up of the chain they became detached and fell back towards the next group of riders waiting, smashing the rotten stop blocks and crashing at the bottom killing three people. It was a sad end to a great ride.
Simon
Swindon UK
Won't swear to it but seems the year l926 stands out in my mind for construction of the Cyclone. Too bad you weren't around for the Airplane Coaster ride at Rye Beach. They actually had two full size coasters there once. I think the Airplane coaster was demolished about l958. Now THAT was a rough ride, and fast.
Actually, I _think_ it was 1927, because I think 1997 was its 70th anniversary. Somewhere I have a T shirt that has the date on it. What a great ride - someday my back will work right again.
I'm thinking either 1922 or 1927.....somewhere in the twenties, to be sure.
If you wanna know about roller coasters, try http://www.rcdb.com
It's the "Roller Coaster Database" and has useful technical info on almost every coaster in North America, plus links toother coaster sites.
no it was 1926 i'm positive
The Cyclone opened in June of 1927.
Yea Baby, it is really great. I will look at my two days in New York next month by how much I enjoy riding the Cyclone. Of all the rides at all the amusement parks I've been in, the Cyclone is by far my favorite. BUT TO REALLY ENJOY IT YOU HAVE TO RIDE IN THE FRONT CAR.
Don t forget your Nitroglycerin pills for your heart after all you are closer to retirement age then teen age by 50 by45 years
Fred,if you want to ride a clone of the Cyclone, out here in southern California at Magic Mountain there is the "Psyclone". Supposedly it was built to the same plans as the original in Coney Island -- as was the one up at the Santa Cruz boardwalk. (Somehow I seem to remember the loading area at Coney island's Cyclone being different than the Psyclone at MM -- not that the one at MM is up off the ground, but the layout of it. Plus, the Cyclone at Coney Island still has the manually operated -- "Johnson Bar" -- station brakes!)
I haven't tried the one in Santa Cruz, but frequent the one at magic Mountain. Geez, that thing beats the @#!t out of you. It's got to be the ROUGHEST riding wooden coaster I've ever done. For a sure-fire case of whiplash, you sit in the BACK seat.
the rollercoaster at the Santa Cruz boardwalk is nothing like the Cyclone, it was never built to the same plans. The Santa Cruz one is not as tall, as fast, as steep, or as rough as the Cyclone. Not even close. Want a REALLY rough ride? The Highway from Santa Cruz to SF. California 17 is the third most dangerous road in the state, with over two accidents every day on its 25 mountainous miles,
Steve: I know about it. I live in Arcadia and have gone to MM, but there is nothing to match the original Cyclone. There is one at Knott's Berry Farm that I will ride next week, but I don't think it will compare. There is just something about the Coney Island one that just knocks you for a loop.
It's still regarded as one of the ten best roller coasters in the USA
I believe it is wooden. They have a ride all of there own, they feel alive. The more they shake the better just so your eyeballs rattle.
We have one about 100 miles from where we live at a place called Oakwood. It as built about 10 years ago and is claimed to be the best wooden coaster in Europe. The ride lasts all the way to the end - not after the first drop. It was built by an American Comapny.
If you ist the park on a quiet day you can ride continuously. One day I will visit in the Summer, my next trip over will be in November (Subway tour No7).
Simon
Swindon UK
The Astroland Astrotower is good for taking pictures as well, for instance:
-Dave
07/04/2000
Dave,
Almost a dead ringer for the rear cover of the 1993 Subway calendar. The difference is on the Wonder Wheel you're shooting through the grating and on the Astrotower it's through plexiglass. Perhaps possibly all scratched by now. I'll make a trip to check this one out.
Happy Fourth !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How long has the Astrotower been open? I don't remember it...
07/09/2000
[How long has the Astrotower been open? I don't remember it...]
I guess the very early 60's when this country was swept up in the space race. I think Mark W's friend may know for sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
So its been open continuously?
07/10/2000
[So its been open continuously?]
I assume so, ruling out being closed for the winter, I never heard of it being closed. Mark W. would your friend know about this?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, Bill. It has been open every summer since 1967
Whoa...VERY well done there, Dave!
Wayne
Too bad it wasn't a nice sunny day! :)
Here's another:
-Dave
David, how about building a couple of subway/trolley or bus screensavers that we can download for our desktops?
Sounds like a great idea but I'm not a programmer. I don't even use a PC unless I absolutely have to. Someone else who has the time can jump on that idea.
-Dave
Could anyone out there make a few screensavers about the subway/trolleys/ busses from Dave s pictures. Something that we can download. I am sure Dave would not mind, from his answer about the Wonder Wheel
Since I'll be on this Sunday's (7/9) Nostalgia Trip, I'll have to try these vantage points with a video camera. Should be very interesting.
--Mark
07/06/2000
[Since I'll be on this Sunday's (7/9) Nostalgia Trip, I'll have to try these vantage points with a video camera. Should be very interesting.]
--Mark
Just remember to stand under the sign that says "stationary cars", the moving ones will make photography a little difficult!
Bill "Newkirk"
Just remember to stand under the sign that says "stationary cars", the moving ones will make photography a little difficult!
Or fun :)
--Mark
Dave: Isn't that the Cyclone?
It is The Cyclone in the foreground. Dave took the picture from The Wonder Wheel
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you Andee, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Now tell me what the hell the wonder wheel is.
07/08/2000
[Thank you Andee, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Now tell me what the hell the wonder wheel is.]
Fred,
You've got to be kidding! I guess when you were younger when riding the Sea Leach Express to Coney Island, you never got off at Stillwell Terminal!
The Wonder Wheel is much a staple to New York City as is the Statue of Liberty. C'mon, tell us you're pulling our legs!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill: I really don't know. Is it the big ferris wheel? I do remember that. Otherwise I'm not pulling your leg. I just don't remember. Please clue me in.
07/09/2000
[Hey Bill: I really don't know. Is it the big ferris wheel? I do remember that. Otherwise I'm not pulling your leg. I just don't remember. Please clue me in.]
Fred,
Yes Fred! The Wonder Wheel is the big ferris wheel and the only one in Coney Island. Easily seen on (D) & (F) trains leaving West 8th st. enroute to Stillwell, but seen from (B) & (N) trains from railfan window. Next time you're in town give it a whirl! It's only $3.00 a ride, great view of Coney Island from above. Gee, you've must have been out of New York that long to forget the Wonder Wheel!
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't forget the ferris wheel, I just didn't know it as the Won-
der Wheel. You want to know the truth? I hate ferris wheels and I'm scared poopless to ride on, yet I love roller coasters, Go figure. I will take a picture of it when I get to New York next month.
>>> Now tell me what the hell the wonder wheel is. <<<
Fred;
Don't worry, there are lots of trains that will take you there on your next visit to NYC. You can't miss it if you take the "West End," "Culver" or "Brighten Beach" lines to Stillwell Avenue, and then look toward the ocean.
Tom
Old Tom: You mean you can't see it from the Sea Beach? Then that is why I don't know what it is. I always rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island. ALWAYS!!!!. Maybe now I have an excuse for my ignorance on this subject.
Great Shot Dave, I just turned your pix into my wall paper for this week
Happy 4th of July from Chicago.
07/04/2000
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL FROM...........
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Independence Day from South Jersey.
Bob
Happy Independence Day from where it all started, Boston!
-- David
Boston, MA
Just testing my password---Brighton rules!!!
Sea Beach is better!
07/05/2000
Brighton has EXPRESS service !
Bill "Newkirk"
Never mind a debate; this has the makings of a Brighton-Sea Beach pep rally.:-)
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... this is a test of the emergency notification system.... in the event of a derailment of the r-142's, railfan photographers would be given directions to the location of the derailment... this is just a test...
i've been wanting to do this for a long time... and with the departure of subway_crash from the board, i thought it would be a good moment for a few wacky thoughts...
And your kind of wackiness we can handle ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah this is F Train wishing all of you fellow Railfans a Happy forth of july. Although I am off work from McDonalds(Thank God), I will still have time to Railfan because I will be going to the city for the Fireworks. If you see me, just holla F Train or Paul. After all, I will be wearing my black F Train Straphanger design shirt. If Anything occurs during my Trip on the Subway or the Long Island Railroad, I will be posting it on the following days from today. Well I will be going off to Rosedale to catch a Westbound Train from Far Rock to Penn station. Whateva you guys do, have fun!
From the North, the Putnam (electric) Branch line ROW goes straight as an arrow & dead ends at the north end of Van C. Park ~24ft above the soccer/cricket fields. Old fence posts (above the ROW) continue and descend on a curve to left along the hillside.
Q: what type of structure (fill, stone, steel?) got the line (at ~2% grade/1200ft?) down to level of turnoff at Putnam Line? Any pix? No trace of structure appears extant.
I took my daughter bike riding in that area last year to look at it for myself. It appears that there was a steel structure, possibly a bridge. transversing the end of the ROW (Mosholu Avenue). Along the Yonker's line, there are still traces of stone ballast going south towards that curve so I'd figure the ROW was consistant to alongside the stables.
Have any of the potbelly stoves from elevated stations been preserved anyplace? The LIRR has done a good job retaining them in its older stations like stations like St James.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know about the stoves themselves, but their chimney vents are still there - check the stations on the #2/#5 from Jackson to East Tremont (not including Intervale) and on the #1/#9 from 207th to 238th; these are the ones built in the 1905-1907 gingerbread style.
wayne
Someone was advertising what purported to be one a few months back on eBay... don't know if it got any bidders, seems to me its starting price was $1000 or thereabouts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Turn nostalgia on:
I still recall the old pot bellied stove in the station house at Neck Rd. station. It was replaced by an electric heater sometime in the late 1950s.
Haven't seen one like it in ages.
-- Ed Sachs
Do you guys remember. . .
--when the C used to go from Bedford Park Boulevard, Bronx to Rockaway Park, Queens?
--when the N went to Forest Hills and the R went to Astoria?
--when the 2 went to New Lots and the 3 went to Flatbush?
--when the E went express along Queens Blvd. 24 hours a day?
--when there were four services going along 8th Avenue (the A,C,E, and K)?
--when the M and the Q travelled over the Brighton Local to Coney Island?
--when conductors had to stand between between cars on the R10s to open and close train doors?
--when you had to pay to exit a train station instead of paying to enter?
--the JFK Express (the Train to the Plane)?
--when the B ran local with the F along 6th Avenue?
What a trip down memory lane that is!
I remember everything but that deal with paying upon exiting the system. When did that happen?
I remember paying to get off on the Rockaway Line. It was the method used to collect a double fare on stations past Broad Channel. I don't recall the exact year the double fare was discontinued -- sometime in the 1970's I believe.
The double fare in the Rockaways ended in 1975, when the fare went to 50 cents from 35 cents.
David
If you rode out to the Roackaways, youpaid once when you got on, and again when you got off. It was a "Doubl Fare Zone" until the late 1960's or maybe even into the 1970's.
When you boarded in the Rockaways, you paid your fare with TWO tokens and just got off the subway in th rest of the world as you normally did.
I don't know the specifics, but I seem to remember that if you rode WITHIN the Rockaways, you asked the token booth clerk for some sort of ticket, so you didn't have to pay twice to get on and again to get off. I think when you presented the ticket at your exiting station, the agent there let you out without payment of another token.
--when the N went to Forest Hills and the R went to Astoria?
I remember when the T went to Astoria !!
I remember when the T wan't the T but the No. 3 line (or just plain West End Express when they were running standards).
I remember riding on the R-27s the first day they were in service on the "QT" (Brighton Local). The train didn't even have a full complement of advertising cards -- lots of blank spaces.
I also remember when the Culver line ran from Coney Island to Chambers St. via the BMT, the Myrtle Ave. El line to Bridge-Jay (gate cars and Q-types), and the Fulton St. El from Eastern Parkway to Lefferts in C-types.
-- Ed Sachs
That makes for a good trivia question regarding the first assignment for the R-27s. I wonder if anyone was complaining about the seating, the markings, etc., etc.:-)
I do believe that many Brighton riders howled about the fewer nunmbers of seats and shorter trains (480' as compared to 536' for the old Standards) when the R27's first showed up in 1960-ish.
... when the R27's first showed up in 1960-ish
It was the fall of 1960 - October or November as I recall.
-- Ed Sachs
Gawd, I must be a really old fart. I remember it all!!
I remember it all. RE: CC line - I also remember it being rush hours only between Bedford Park Blvd and World Trade Center, of course the signs said Hudson Terminal.
Wayne
I remember taking the K (R-40 slant w/no A/C) to the Planetarium with my dad several times, and later an R-10 C. I once saw (but never rode) the JFK Express, and remember waiting for the N to go to 63rd drive.
You really know how to make a guy feel old. I used to watch the conductors work the doors on the R-1/9s as well as the R-10s.
Of course, there were also the A, AA, CC, and E along 8th Ave., but they never ran all at the same time.
One of my favorite memories, and this should come as no surprise to most of you, would have to be the R-10s strutting their stuff along the CPW express dash. Pure excitement, rolling thunder and everything.
Steve:
I, too, remember those things fondly.
But while talking to my friend, (who is somewhat of a train buff) he said that at one time the E ran along the express with the A along 8th Avenue, and that the E also went into Brooklyn. I have no recollection of this. Is it true?
During the rush, the E did indeed run via the 8th Ave. express tracks and the Fulton St. express tracks. Most trains terminated at Euclid or Rock Park, with a few terminating at Lefferts or Far Rock. The rush hour CC took over the E's tracks at Hudson Terminal Station, now of course, World Trade Center (bumper block tracks).
Fulton St. express service flipflopped over the years between the A and E when it was a rush hour-only operation. During the late 50s, it was the A which ran express. Then in the early 60s, the E took over and held that assignment until 1973. I rode on an E which ran express along Fulton St. once, in July of 1969. Nothing spectacular, just a nice express run.
One thing I regret was never riding on the R-10s on a Fulton St. express run. Oh well, I rode on them plenty of times on the A along CPW.
Yes, you are correct. The problem during changeover time was this: with no PA systems, if you were on an A leaving Hoyt St, you didn't know if that A was going to be local or express.
For those here who are too young to remember, formerly the C & R were known as the CC & RR. Remember when the R16's on the RR had glued paper 95 St. destination signs on the outside sign box?....The K was earlier known as the AA. I worked the AA many times as a conductor & motorman. Actually, 4 services did not run at the same time on Eighth Ave. When the C (or CC) ran, the K (or AA) trainsets became B (or BB to 34/6) trainsets....On the Brighton, before the pre-Chrystie St. rush hour Q, the QB ran on the local to Stillwell along with the M.......The JFK express was not a premium fare during the 1985 (approx.year) closure of the Willy B. At that time they ran 8 car R46's....Finally, the B along Sixth Ave. was confusing. In general, 57/6 service ran local, while 168 St. service ran express.
I remember when those R16's showed up on the RR with the white destinaton sign stickers (black letters). This happened during late 1967 or early 1968 on the GG as well, as I used to ride the E/F in Queens to get to LIRR in Jamaica.
I also remember when some R26/28's showed up on the Flushing IRT and the sae srt of sticker destination signs were applied to them. I think there were two trainsets, maybe three. That happened around 1965 or 1966 for some strange reason.
Oh, I do (except for the paying upon exiting part) . . . but I also remember . . .
- when the 34th Street station of the 6th Avenue line had the traditional IND design motif, unlike today;
- when three BMT stations -- Fulton St. and Broad St. (Nassau Street line) and 8th Avenue terminus (14th Street line) also had IND station designs;
- when Brooklyn-Queens crosstown stations, and many stations along the Fulton Street route, and also some of the Prospect Park line stations, were rather dimly lit with incandescent bulbs;
- the old plastic Transign roller signs on R-32 and R-38 units;
- the many colors for different lines (magenta / PMS 239 for AA, F, #4; turquoise blue / PMS 306 for #3, E, M; red / PMS 185 for #2, QB; et al.);
- when there were refreshment stands on concourses of key stations like Herald Square or Union Square;
- when all divisions of the subway system had “L.A.H.T.” cars, not just the IRT as is the case today (what are more commonly known these days as “RedBirds”);
- actually riding on the R1 - 9 class cars within their last 2 years of service, on the CC line;
- when stations still had the old-style metal signs (black lettering, white background) throughout the system, before the new style took over.
Hi, gang,
Flew in from Miami Beach, BOAC...well, from Budapest via Prague, CSA...yesterday. The ERA trip to Budapest and environs (with two side trips into Slovakia) was great! We must have toured every carbarn in Hungary.
Some observations about Budapest's metro, which consists of three lines (line #1 is called the Millennium Line and was the inspiration for the Contract One IRT style, the other two were Russian-influenced during the time that the Soviets were overseeing things):
1. Budapest's escalators operate about twice as quickly as New York's. People don't seem to have problems boarding or alighting, but the system still has queuing problems at the landings, probably due to sudden influxes of passengers getting on/off trains. I didn't see any elevators (no Hungarians with Disabilities Act?).
2. The trains are crowded much of the time, and service is frequent. Digital clocks along the platforms tell passengers how long ago the last train left, but not how long until the next train should arrive.
3. Fare collection in the metro (as well as the buses, trolleybuses, and trams) is proof-of-payment. Inspectors rove the system checking passes and tickets, but they seem to concentrate their efforts on certain days.
4. The Lines #2 and #3 cars are about 30 years old at their oldest, but look much older. It's basically a Soviet design, similar to Moscow's system. The oldest cars have incandescent lighting. Russia recently sent 10 nearly new cars over as partial payment of national debt. A GOH program has just started (didn't see any of the cars in service, but saw a trainset in a shop); the light bulbs have been replaced by screw-in fluorescents. The equipment, not being made of stainless steel, has a rust problem, and many cars are in need of a paint job.
5. Line #1 is SMALL! It's basically a trolley subway, with tiny (but modern) cars and low platforms.
6. On all three lines, the trains accelerate quickly and hold their speed.
It was a most enjoyable trip, but it's good to be home.
David
David, do they still have any street running with conduit?
The manhattan streetcar conduit system was patterned after
the Budapest design.
Some people mentioned the conduit operation in Budapest during the trip, but I saw no sign of it. Everything I saw was running with pantographs.
David
At Seashore, we have Budapest low-floor rapid transit car #18 (built in 1896). I believe it has conduit collection, but we can verify that on the SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore coming up on July 15. For more information, see the current events page!
A number of years ago we (BSM) had a visitor from the Budapest transit system. When she (yes, it was a lady) was asked "Oh, don't you have conduit operation like Washington used to?" Her reply was "We took that out in the 1920's!"
I suspect that was a truthful answer.
They are planning on renovating 23rd and Broadway and 8th and Broadway. They will go back to traditional tile!
I believe they have adequate samples from which to do the new work.
Let's hope they recreate what was originally there. At 23rd, the icons are still visible just outside of fare control. At 8th, there is only ONE icon left; at the south end of the southbound platform by the stairs. I will be very pleased to see the refrigerator tile go bye bye.
Wayne
Glad to see the offensive 70's tile on the BMT Broadway line go away. They did a great job at 5th Ave, so I hope they replicate that.
And they did the same at Cortlandt Street. That one went up in 1996, and they were still trying out ideas; so it's kind of simple. As they went along, they began getting more and more detailed - what you see at 5th Avenue is a full-detail recreation. The pattern at 23rd and 8th streets is the same - a two-color frieze with multi-colored background; every so often there's a vertical bar with a diamond at the top and rectangular icons - so it shouldn't be too hard to recreate. Let's hope they use the correct materials - like they did at Park Place IRT and Lorimer Street BMT (I have a sample of that one - nice workmanship).
wayne
I suspect the original tile is behind the walls like at Cortlandt Street. If they can't restore it they can probably use it as a guide.
I believe you are 100% correct Dave. As a matter of fact there is still a section (about 15 feet or so) of the old tile still uncovered. It is at the north end of the uptown platform (just beyond what appears to be the "ending wall" (or is that the 28th st Station? I always get the 2 mixed up).
That is 28th Street with the faux end, and YES, the original tile is behind the 1960s stuff - there is evidence of this at some of the 4th Avenue Brooklyn stations as well.
Let us hope the restorers do a worthwhile job. Did anyone hear of a starting date for this (this way I can go down there and rubberneck! :o>)
wayne
Of course the old tile is behind those awful block tiles; I remember watching the workers cover them up the last time the stations were renovated (and I just about cried, but there was hope, since the tiles weren't destroyed). Why can't they just knock down the new wall and restore the original tiles? (And why didn't they do it at Cortlandt and Canal Sts.?)
They did do it at Cortlandt Street but not Canal. The fine retoration work at Cortlandt Street and Fifth Avenue on the BMT and 33rd Street (most recently) on the IRT makes me wonder why they cannot do it on every renovation. I assume it is just a matter of money. So, why doesn't Canal on the East Side IRT warrant replicas of the original glass tiles when 33rd Street does?
What bothers me more is why they cannot match the colors when doing work on IND stations? It can't cost that much to come a little closer than they have. They even have a different shade of white tiles in a repaired section of the renovated Bergen Street IND station! They waste so much money covering up perfectly good tiles in every station renovation but they cannot match colors in a repair. Yes, 14th & 8th really needs it, but Broadway-Lafayette did not.
And (my final rant), why do they paste tiles over tiles? I know that it is probably cheaper, but I cannot imagine that it is a good tiling technique. The folks on This Old House would never approve. ;)
Hear! Hear! There are SO MANY IND stations that have tile bands patched in colors other than the original. 65th Street station in Queens, whose original color is Mauve, has patches in lilac, violet and even purple. Spring Street - three blues. Kingston-Throop in Brooklyn - orange, light yellow, medium yellow. Elmhurst Avenue - three different blues. They must use whatever they have left in the storehouse, rather than try and match it.
I too was VERY upset to see the Broadway-Lafayette station's delicate Powder blue/Cerulean blue tile band (the only one in the system) replaced by a generic Midnight Blue/black one. However, at Metropolitan-Grand on the "G", a very careful match to the original Berol #920 Light Green was made, using German-made Agrob Buchtal tile.
A nice job, with some new tablets as well. At 14th Street and 8th Avenue, the contrasting Butterscotch/Terra Cotta is very pleasing to the eye, but why did they do the name captions in black-on-white tile, which is NOT traditional IND. It looks so out of place. And at Chambers Street, two shades of purple exist - one Blue-Violet hand set
with NO CAPTIONS, and the other Red-Violet (Concord Grape) panel tile, with TOO MANY CAPTIONS! The left hand doesn't seem to know what the right one is doing.
One way to put new tile over old tile is to put a new lath over the old tile, then cement the new tile to the lath (using Portland Cement) then grout it. They did this at 5th Avenue-53rd Street. Attaching panels to aluminum laths is also a good way (like at 207th Street).
Canal Street IRT (#6) line got repros of the late 1920s/early 1930s green and yellow IND style tile. Apparently they thought it looked better than the original 1904 stuff, although they DID clean the "C" shield cartouches and put up a new yellow Tulip Border. I think they also left one of the Heins-LaFarge faience tablets up as well (on the downtown side). The hand-made tile at 33rd Street is a sight to behold; utterly beautiful.
I have seen something going on out on the Canarsie Line with respect to adherence to the old ways (Mr.Vickers would be appropriately proud)- a recent rehab at Lorimer Street finds perfectly-recreated sections of frieze (with the correct colors, too) AND some brand-new tablets (the "O"s are a little lopsided on two of 'em) as well. In addition to this, they are building new electrical supply rooms at the ends of some stations (Montrose, Halsey, De Kalb) - which involves making new walls. These are covered in white tile - however - the sections where the friezes would go are not up yet, which leads me to believe that new sections (matching) of frieze are being readied. At Halsey Street, this is particularly welcome- one of the most egregious short-cuts ever taken was perpetuated at the s/b Covert Street exit area - the original dark/light blue, dark green/sea green and ochre tile band was replaced by an IND style band, all midnight blue, without border, four tiles high. No reason for this except for expediency. Fortunately, in today's "the old is new" environment, this section of tile looks like it's bound for the trash heap.
Let's see if they can get the waterproofing job done at Wilson Avenue and put up some 1928-style repro panels on the trackside wall. A Baskin-Robbins job - 28 colors. I'd be willing to assist them with the color matching; I have DOZENS of photographs of the platform-side tiles.
wayne
hey wayne post some photos here right now (just use html to put them in here (img src= kinda thing)
I don't have each and every one scanned yet, but here is a sample of the multi-colored tile at 65th Street, Queens:
The color in the center is the natural Mauve color.
As I scan them, they will be put up in the Line-by-Line section. I try and avoid putting up images on SubTalk cause it slows down loading of the page(s). Most of the stuff I've scanned can be found out on Line-by-Line.
wayne
that's pretty cool. the line-by-line section of this site?
Yes.... take the tour...Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pictures! Every line covered, with detailed captions and side pages.
Click on this link to go to the IND.
Click on this link to go to the IRT.
Click on this link to go to the BMT.
wayne
The southbound platform at 28th St. also has its original tiles at the northern end. I always wondered about that - was 28th St. built too long to begin with, or was it shifted southward?
About time they got rid of those Mondrianesque 1968 era tiles on the BMT Broadway....
But when are they going to fix up the gawdawful Prince Street station. It did manage to keep some of its original tiles in the fare control area, but that yellow color makes the standard MTA blue-and-white look beautiful by comparison.
That Jasmine Yellow color is a fairly poor choice for such a large area. They have it at 53rd Street and 9th Street stations in Brooklyn as well. Hopefully, we will see the original "P" icons at Prince Street some day.
wayne
cool!!! tear down the charactgerless stuff and reveal and restore the gorgeous!
Does anyone know where I could read up on the New York and North Shore Railway?
I would assume there's info about it on Bob Anderson's website LIRR History.com
Are you referring to the Flushing-Port Washington trolley? If so, Vincent Seyfried wrote a book on it in the (?) 1970s. Try Arnold Joseph at 212-532-0019 or Kevin Farrell at www.trainbooks.com, or Bradley Clarke at 122 W Newton St, Boston, MA 02118. All honest, respected used book dealers. GOOD LUCK, I have the book, its well worth any price.
I wonder if they let anybody view East River fireworks from any elevated stations like those along the N Astoria line, and the 7 line (particularly Queensboro plaza and Court Square, also must be quite a view from Smith-9th street.
Must be something to see from the front window of a westbound number 7. I guess the trains operate normally, or do they stop to view fireworks?
We watched from the Brooklyn Army Terminal pier on 58 street
(I had to show everyone the NYCHRR yard and tracks on the way) and had a great view of all five displays. It was great!
Dave
Funny you mention that...
I just returned from Boston's fireworks. After giving up on finding a decent perch amid the crowds on the Esplanade, I headed over to the Longfellow Bridge and staked out a good spot with an excellent view right next to the Red Line tracks (the bridge was closed to vehicular traffic due to the fireworks). I've mentioned here before how much I love the sounds of the AC motors on the Bombarier 01800's on that line, and I was able to sit there for about three full hours with those motors passing about four feet away from my head. Music to my ears!
During the fireworks display itself, the trains slowed down to a crawl across the bridge, and a few even stopped for a few seconds at mid-span. A couple trains were even honking their horns and flashing their headlights as they went across the bridge. Very cool!
On the way home, the Green Line was sheer hell as we crawled our way through the Boylston Street tunnel... It took literally 45 minutes to get from Park Street to Kenmore. That line is bad enough during a normal rush hour; Independence Day crowds make it laughable.
-- David
Boston, MA
I was about to post a message about my fireworks viewing experience and see that if I said that I rode from South Station to Kendall to view them, and that there were people watching from the Longfellow Bridge as the train passed, that someone would tell me that nobody in New York calls trains by their color (OK, maybe South Station, Kendall and Longfellow Bridge give it away). Maybe I saw you as one of the people on the bridge as my train passed.
On the way back, because the crowds at Kendall were too extreme, I walked to Central and got to ride free.
There's a reason I watched from Cambridge:
GIVEN REASON
All of the tourists would crowd around on the Boston side and only locals would bother going to Cambridge.
ACTUAL REASON
How can I pass up an oppurtunity to ride the train across the bridge?
I imagine that the #7 trains may have slowed as they passed, but I'd bet management would've been waiting to discipline any T/O that stopped with clear signals in front of him/her.
We used to look at the fireworks from Roosevelt Island or on the Queens (once we bought cars). I now live in the Washington, DC area and since I was near Baltimore around 8:30 PM we decided to go to Baltimore's Inner Harbor instead of trying to race back to Washington. We (and loads of other cars) pulled over on the shoulder of the ramps to/from I-95. Other than people in the Hotels at the Inner Harbor we probably had the best view. The police passed in both directions but did not make anyone move.
Wayne
#7 trains were slow last night, but not because they were watching fireworks. The TA was caught with their pants down running a Saturday schedule, and the 7 line supt was too cheap to hire crews normally hired during ballgames for extra train service. THEY TURNED ALL TRAINS SOUTH OF WOODSIDE to pick up the headways through LI City and Grand Central, leaving the folks east of Woodside without service for almost 45 minutes. A real blunder indeed for the crowds at Woodside, 74 Street and Main Street, which resembled a BIE at rush hour.
Once again Queens (the 7 line in particular) gets stuck with poor service. Taking the Queens Blvd line trains to Queens Plaza or 23-Ely would've been a better bet, but there's no El.
Off peak 7 aint so great. I waitied about 8 minutes for a 7 train to Flushing at 74th street yesterday at 7:45pm, while the Queens Blvd line had many more trains running at the same time. And no express passed us until before 103rd.
In general the crowding on the 7 is the worst, add to that the poor A/C on the Redbirds, and rough ride I'd much rather take the E or F and get my bus connection there. But I live on the north shore, so I gotta take the N21 from that lovely garbage can I call Flushing.
Saw a few men spit on the El tracks at 74th too, somebody could've gotten a wet suprise down below. Seems to be a lot of spitters on the 7 and in Flushing, worse than anywhere I've been in the city.
Best bet for the fireworks would probably be 23rd and Ely and walk a few blocks for a better view.
I think I'm gonna take a vacation from the 7 train for a while.
8 Minutes at 745PM is Nothing, how about 20 minutes at 245PM Weekday for a A, now that stinks
Yikes! Even though I like the A train the long waits are just too frustrating.
Aaaaaah, so it was just as we knew all along. By now Brighton Express Bob has been pushed from the platforms of the 14th/Canarsie (L) and a could is forming over Sheepshead Bay as we speak. And in replying to this message I will soon be magically transported to the abandoned Canal St. Station, formerly used by the N. See you all there!
I CAN FEEL MYSELF BEING SUCKED INTO THE COMPUTER NOW WHAT BAOUT YOU HEYPAUL?
Well, I just got back from one hot and crowded day in the Big Apple.
I was surprised how empty the city seemed. Midtown didn't seem it's usual boisterous self(not even TSQ) until late afternoon. The subway was practically abandoned in Queens and the Bronx.
I finally got to ride the West End Line. I still like the Culver better. The view from the window was dominated by the garish Verrazano Bridge which looks like a big, blue beefeater's hat.
I managed to get in the Astoria Line which was E-M-P-T-Y. I counted a total of 12 people boarding the train between QBP and Ditmars.
After wandering around GCT and getting some neat shots of Metro-North, I did the Pelham Line which was quite enjoyable, especially since it was also lighty used today. Was everybody downtown today for OpSail? Downtown got pretty crowded south of Wall Street.
I wanted to ride the HBLR but for the second time, time constraints got in the way so I'll save that for my next trip sometime before the end of the month.
A friend of mine in NYCT (signals) came to the rescue on Saturday when the new signalling system malfunctioned at Queensborough Plaza.
Apparently, the new soft-touch controls failed and all signals went to red on the G Line (not sure if it was Queens-bound, Brooklyn-bound or both). These new controls replaced the old push-button system that worked fine for years.
My friend ended up switching the system to manual ops so trains could be moved through Queensborough Plaza (there are no "key bys" at QB Plaza).
Doug aka BMTman
The SI ferrys during midday were rerouted toward the east side of Governor's island, and, if that wasn't enough, we paralleled the bridge (and were unusually close) and went up the east coast of SI! I was surprised to see Stapleton SIR station (with a 5 car train pulling out) from the ferry at 2 in the afternoon! This reroute lasted until 3:30. Running time: 50 minutes. Boats in service: N, AL, JFK, HHL. Frequency of service: 30 minutes. The layover at NY was 27 minutes for each boat, since as one arrived another was leaving. The trip from SI was only 40 minutes, and did not go as close to the bridge. Great view of the Brooklyn waterfront, and saw the old Verrazano ferry boat docked somewhere along the route, looked pretty seaworthy from afar (wasn't sinking). Saw the governor's island coast guard car ferry, docked in the back. Was surprised to see The Port Authority of NY and NJ on a building in Brooklyn. Many barges were lined up, with signs 'Keep Clear, Fierworks'. When the first ferry went the normal route, it had to honk frequently to get the smaller private boats out of the way.
But how was the view of the 'tall ships' from the ferry? I was thinking of taking the ferry myself. A late work night and subsequent sleep till 9:00 paralyzed that plan.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The view was good, though short. Most of the time we stayed out of the way, the best view was from the ferry while it was in the terminal. I think around 11:AM ferry service was suspended entirely, don't know when the suspension started or ended.
The water between Governors Island and Long Island(a.k.a. Brooklyn) is called Buttermilk Channel. During the Statue of Liberty when the USS America? was the flag ship (not sure of the name, largest non Nuc aircraft carrier at the time) for Op Sail was dropping anchor they rerouted that way too.
They also used the Buttermilke Channel reroute for the original OpSail, to mark the country's 200th anniversary in 1976. BTW, the channel itself was originally shallow enough to allow people on Governor's Island walk across to Brooklyn, before being dredged out in the 19th Century.
Brooklyn residents will rejoice this weekend, the N trains will be running over the Manny B every weekend in July. The rejoicing will stop somewhere after Grand st, when they realize they're going up the 6th ave line. The train will terminate at 57th/6th, so Queensbridge riders get ready for the BS. The Queens portion will run from Astoria to Canal (where riders can connect to the 4? That's what the sign says). The R runs from 71st(Qns) to 34th(Man), and 59th(Bklyn) and 95th(Bklyn). Why they didn't just run the R Through via 6th ave anyway, and have one straight line. This current arrangement means that 3 lines will be turning on B'way (BS (57th/7th), R (34th), N (Canal)).
Even though I knew it was impossible, I thought 'normal service' for about 3 seconds when I saw (paraphrasing) 'no service between Canal and Dekalb, N runs via Manhattan Bridge'.
That should be interesting, if for no other reason than when N trains consist of R-32 G.O.H. or R-40 Slant G.O.H. units, in terms of the front-window view. Not unlike when R trains have run via the 6th Avenue line to 95th Street, Brooklyn.
Don't forget the R will only run to 59th Street in Brooklyn. E/F local stops in Queens as well. Take the 4 for all CLOSED N/R stations in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Normal Screw the Pax on Weekends G.O.
In other words: EVERYBODY on the BMT should get ready for the B.S.!!
The plan definitely have room for clarification. I agree that it'll be more simpler to just have the (R) run via 6th Ave, the (BS) to Queensbridge, and (N) from Astoria to Canal. Heck, the (N) had been running express in Manhattan occasionally now, so why not make railfans more happy by running it over the Manhattan Bridge?
These reroutes will be a nightmare for tourists and novice subway riders. The last time when I was in a Jamaica bound (F) leaving from the 34th/BWay downtown express platform, an old lady asked me where it was going. I said "uptown" and she got pissed and got off at the next stop. It's going to be a crazy wacky weekend for some people.
Express or local up 6th Ave?
--Mark
I assume express, too much switching to bother with local. The sign also described it at 'Running on the B' so that's another indication of express service.
Well at least it's a start. The Sea Beach over the Manhattan Bridge. That sounds wonderful. That might mean it could be permanent someday and the N could become an Express again. But what the hell is the IRT 4 doing in this equation? They can't be running on BMT tracks, could they? Since when have they been running on Can al Street. The last time I knew of that was when my Sea Beach carried the #4 and was a real express. How long is this going to be done?
People will have to transfer from the Canal St. BMT station to the Lex IRT and ride the #4 to Atlantic and meet the N at Pacific. Too bad the 4 is an express and skips that station... I guess the people who wrote up that notice didn't look at their Map.
ALL No.4,5,6 trains will be making all stops from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge during the Weekends of this G.O on the N,R Lines. This looks like a dragged out afternoon on the Lex Line. So if you want to get to Brooklyn Fast use the No.2 or No.3 Express Lines from Times Square to Atlantic Ave.
Was there once a suburban trolley line terminating at 69 Street with the Media and Sharon Hill lines that ran in the middle of the West Chester Pike? If so, what stops did it have and when was it destroyed?
Has a line branching off the R3 to Kennett Square or Oxford ever been considered by railfans (besides me) or the unenlightened?
What was the story of the R5 extension from Downingtown to Coatesville and Parkesburg?
Good eye!!!! It ran down West Chester Pike (continuation of Market St.) to West Chester until around 1966 or 1967. I remember seeing the tracks then, but not the actual trains, so I believe it was stopped around then, but it could have been earlier. I do not know what stops there were and never saw a timetable for it, because I only moved there in 1967.
The rest, I don't know..
The West Chester line was abandoned west of Westgate Hills in 1954. The remainder was abandoned in 1958 and the track cut back to the carhouse lead at Llanerch. The remaining West Chester Pike trackage was abandoned when SEPTA relocated the operating and shop facilites in the middle 1970's. The only remaining trackage on West Chester Pike are the storage tracks that have been there since 1936.
A few years ago, you used to see trolleys parked on the storage tracks, but not any more. They must be storing them in the 69th yard.
I did see a railgrinder there on Monday, though.
Chuck Greene
What you saw wasn't a rail grinder, as SEPTA doesn't own one for the entire Light Rail system, either city or suburban. What you may have seen was D-39, the Red Arrow utility work motor. D-39 came from the city division.
Thanks, Dan. Maybe you are right. The unit I saw had "FAIRMOUNT"
on it. I didn't catch the D-39 on it , though.
Chuck Greene
The line that used to branch off the R3 at Wawa Jct is abandonned to Chads Ford (bridge there is still intact). At Chads Ford there is a jct with the old Wilmington and Northern (Reading) line. The line west of Chads Ford to c. Port Deposit MD and South to Wilmington is owned and operated by the Octoraro short line.
The R5 used to run all the way to Parksburg with stops at Coatsville as recently as 1994. At that time Amtrak wished to eliminate PARK tower as a full time block station. This forced SEPTA to run all the way to CORK (Lancaster) to turn the train. After a few months of they they trunkated service to Downingtown, turning the trains at THRON. Last year SEPTA built a station at THRON interlocking (Thorndale) so as to make full use of the line.
On Monday, July 3rd at 2:39 pm, I arrived at Metropolitan Avenue on the "M" and completed riding every line and stopping at every station.
I have lived in New York since 1983 and have pieced it to together over that time.
>>> completed riding every line and stopping at every station. <<<
Congratulations Aaron! Did you stop at each station and actually leave the station and return to it, or just remain on the platform waiting for the next train? Does each station include both sides of side platform stations? Did you take pictures at each station? Obviously since you have been in NYC since 1983 this was a part time project.
In the 50's when I was railfanning I remember a newspaper story about someone who traveled the entire system (without stopping at each station) with one fare in about 27+ hours. Have any Subtalkers tried that feat? Can anyone figure the most efficient route to do that?
Tom
It sound like Aaron may have completed the entire system, but not on one fare like a few people have done. I grew up in NYC and finally completed the system (stopping at all stations) during my high school years around 1984.
Wayne
Did not get off at every station. Too dangerous!!! I guess doing it
all on one fare might be a future Subtalk Field Trip. I am not sure
the wives would go for it, however.
You may have seen me on Monday, as I was taking video of the "M" between Myrtle Ave and Metropolitan Ave. I took some video from the street, too, at Wyckoff Ave. Pretty busy area, I might add.
Also took some video walking across the Willie B, and again from the street at Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza.
--Mark
Tom, it's been done, more than once... there was a record set in the late '60s, I believe, riding the system as it existed then that made the Guiness record book. Not sure exactly the total time, seems to me it was just under or just over (by a couple of minutes) 24 hours. One of the participants in that ride has posted here in the past but I don't remember his handle. There was a lengthy discussion a year or so ago about the possibility of doing it again, how the record would compare then to now (the Culver Shuttle was still running then, and South Ferry inner loop and Hammell's Wye in the Rockaways were in revenue service; now of course we have the new route to Queensbridge), etc., but the effort kind of fizzled out. I'm getting too d____d old to consider participation in such an event, much as I might enjoy it (no way I could stay awake that long!) and the younger crowd isn't crazy enough.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse;
I know it has been done by the empirical method of starting somewhere and keeping on going till you get done. I wanted to do it back in the 50's but could not explain such a crazy idea to the family. I did travel the entire system over several days starting and ending each trip at Main Street, Flushing. It figures that the record was set in the 60's after the demise of the 3rd Avenue El.
What I was thinking of was more of an intellectual exercise, determining the shortest elapsed time using published timetables and the current route map, considering such variables as which lines are ridden at which time of day to take advantage of express and frequency of service, routes that would require the least backtracking, and the time of day and station to begin and end the trip.
Tom
That was done and published on this board about a year ago, maybe a bit longer (I've been following this board for almost two years). subway-buff was involved in the discussion as were several other posters; not sure who actually posted the "final" plan. I remember that one version (may have been the "final" but I'm not 100% sure) took advantage of a G.O. to connect from the 1 to the 5 at South Ferry/Bowling Green, and that a MetroCard transfer was debated for one location (but IIRC was not in the final plan).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[In the 50's when I was railfanning I remember a newspaper story about someone who traveled the entire system (without stopping at each station) with one fare in
about 27+ hours. Have any Subtalkers tried that feat? Can anyone figure the most efficient route to do that? ]
I did it with 2 friends on June 16, 1967. We did not stop at each station, just passed thru. We set an official record as of that date of 22 hours and 39 minutes. I have been in Email contact (thanks to SubTalk) with a person from the group that OFFICIALLY broke our record.
I was not the creator of the route which was used, but still remember one key part was an early morning run thru the Rockaways to take advantage of the wye to get to both Rock. Park and Far Rock.
I've seen the platforms of every station in the system on board subway trains.
I had quite a train experience last night. I was upstate at the Fort Edward Amtrak Station (near Glens Falls, NY) Our Southbound train to Penn Station was supposed to arrive at 6:30. Well, after 1 hour of waiting we decided to call Amtrak. They didn't know where the train was. Then a CP rail frieght train came by. They said that the signals were out on the whole line. You know what the most fun part is? The whole line is only ONE track! We had to wait for 4 hours while 3 trains went Northbound before they let our train proceed. When it finally arrived, at least they didn't collect the tickets and all the food was free.
Also, so a whole bunch of R142 near the Yonkers train station.
What do you expect when New York makes Railroads pay more property taxes for a two track line than for a one track line.
I have noticed from long-time observation, that we have tons of ferry info on this board.
I was thinking about starting (via geocities or the such) a e-mail list for "NYCFerry" or "Ferry Talk".
DO NOT respond on this board, but e-mail em privately if you are interested in such an idea. I would support free speech, but like Dave, I'd reserve the right to delete objectionable (slanderous, obscene, illegal activity suggestions) posts.
Once again- this would not be a competitor to this site but only an e-mail group. Of course- if someone wants to start such a page- I'll help with legwork and research.
I have noticed from long-time observation, that we have tons of ferry info on this board.
I was thinking about starting (via geocities or the such) a e-mail list for "NYCFerry" or "Ferry Talk".
DO NOT respond on this board, but e-mail me privately if you are interested in such an idea. I would support free speech, but like Dave, I'd reserve the right to delete objectionable (slanderous, obscene, illegal activity suggestions) posts.
Once again- this would not be a competitor to this site but only an e-mail group. Of course- if someone wants to start such a page- I'll help with legwork and research.
If anyone passed by the MVM's at Church Av & E 18 St (D/Q station), and looked at one of the MVM's there, you may notice among other things, the Windows logo on the touchscreen. Strange, isn't it?
They use Windows NT Server 4.0 as their Operating System. I've seen one go down while I was walkiny through a station and saw the NT splash screen on restart.
The ATM machines at a credit union where I use to work at is powered by Windows 95.
3/4's of the world is powerd by some form of Microsoft Operating System.
Thank goodness i work with Big Iron and only have to worry about Big Blue.
OS/2 still powers a great many bank ATMs.
--Mark
And, AFAIK, many store cash register systems.
So now what is a computer??
An ATM, Cash Register? I know some can get pretty complicated and even cash registers have full QWERTY keyboards.
IIRC, the IBM 4680 series (your standard POS system) is pure COBOL.
-Hank
No, it's not. I was one of the original developers of that system back when I worked at IBM. Its base operating system is a DRI (now part of Novell) CDos written in a mixture of C and RASM-86. The next layer of control software and the system applications are written largely in C, with some assembler. The IBM-supplied pricing, accounting and inventory control applications themselves are written in C-Basic. I worked on that project from its inception in 1984 (publicly introduced in January 1986) until the great IBM downsizing in 1994. (I was hired by IBM in 1978 and worked on predecessor POS systems beginning in 1981.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What I know of the system I learned from the repair guy. Those machines are still required to operate in pairs?
I remember spending an overnight running an update on the 28 registers at the Shoprite where I worked as a teenager. Pain in the butt to do the update when 028 is in the pharmacy and 027 is in appy, at the other end of the store. THey upgraded last time I was there, new printers (thermal) and an actual video monitor instead of a display, so you can REALLY see what you're being charged.
-Hank
"Those machines are still required to operate in pairs?"
They never were! They're placed in boxes that can hold one or two machines at once. In some places, they're put against a fence and you can see it from behind. You can also make it out from the front.
Pigs, might I suggest that you go back and read the prior post to Hank's response? Perhaps we should have changed the title of the thread, but he's not referring to MVMs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I see. Sorry.
Depends on the installation. The customer had the option of specifying single or double-headed machines. Two-headed was common in grocery and other fixed checkout stores, singles in areas that were frequently reconfigured (large department stores, for example) or large mass-merchandise (Wal*Mart). I have forgotten at this point if a three-headed machine was offered; it had been in the earlier 3650/3660/3680 environment but the only ones I remember seeing that way were in our lab. It was possible to mix and match in the same store, but was rarely done (the exception was in grocery where the customer service booth and the back room were usually singles). And a number of customers switched from the doubles to singles after experiencing spontaneous reboots that took two terminals out of service instead of just one (and before you start pointing fingers, these were largely due to crappy power wiring and a hostile environment, NOT the software - I make no secret of my bitterness toward IBM, but that software was GOOD).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Our biggest problem was when a server failed and everything we scanned came up 'Item Not Found' Fortunately, they were required to put prices on nearly everything, and we had to actually key-enter stuff with the department keys the old-fashioned way. The hard part was produce, since the item file was gone, none of the codes took, so it was key price/price/weight/produce and then check the math!
-Hank
Yes. Another argument for redundancy. Version 1, Releases 1-3 of the system only had a single controller (v2r1 introduced lan capability, with two to four controllers - two was the norm in supermarkets, with three common in retail). ShopRite was one of our early lan customers. At least you had standalone capability; some customers didn't opt for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are these systems generally taken down overnight? I once went shopping at the all-night P&C in Ithaca, NY at around 3am. (P&C is based in Syracuse. There are three in Ithaca but only one is open all night.) At the entrance to the store was a bin with markers and a sign announcing that the entire cash register system went down every night for a few hours and that we should mark the prices on the items. The cashier had a tape calculator. I was pleased to find that the credit card readers were still up as I didn't have much cash on me.
Many systems in 24-hour stores are taken down for about 15-20 minutes during the middle of the night to "close" the store from an accounting perspective. I can't see any reason for them to be down longer than that. Of course, I'm only intimately familiar with my former employer's offerings, not the competition's - perhaps theirs required a longer downtime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe the NJT TVMs us MS-DOS.
PATH uses SCO Unix . I've seen the PATH machines display a Unix copyright screen and some unix error message(s) and a statement warning against softweare piracy.
I can see it now .... I insert a MetroCard to refill it, feed the machine my credit card, then the blue screen of death fills the monitor, and I get a bill for $80,000 for the Metrocard transaction that never happened :)
--Mark
If that happens go to the booth and report the problem. While the Station Agent cant give you a card, we can call in the malfunctioning MVM, and give tell you to call MetroCard Customer Services.
Not at all. Sad to say, but without serious work b serious programmers, WIN NT is the best solution for the process. Linux and UNIX would likey give too difficult an interface, OS/2 is nearly extinct, and Win9x is not secure or reliable enough. Sad to say, but there's a reason MS is on so many machines:
It's a lot easier to use than anything else available.
-Hank
Last Week, I was waiting for an F train at Rockefeller Center, and I saw a B train entering the station. It was slant R-40s! Are the R-40s mixed on the B and Q lines now, that the B and Q swapped the equipment back in November 1997?
I took the N train to 34th Street last week, and it was half R-68s from Westinghouse-Amrail and half R-68As from Kawasaki. I thought the R-68s and R-68As never mix. Why did they mix on an 8-car N train? Was this the cause of the B train derailment at DeKalb Avenue last week?
The slant B train only runs on weekends.If you look
carefully some of the signs still say Q.
There is at least ONE Slant fully signed as B (including between the cars). The consist is usually as follows:
4312-4313; 4304-4305; 4194-4195; 4344-4345 and 4186-4187
(I am not sure if I have the consist order right).
#4312-4313 have especially noisy wheels. They screech and shriek even on slight curves. And when it ducked into the 4th Avenue tunnel (less than 200-ft radius) - OUCH!!!
wayne
I thought you loved that sound.:-) Or was it only on the Redbirds?
A Slant with "out-of-true" wheels can make dangerous noise. It's just as thrilling to hear as the best Redbird arias at Mott Avenue. Usually they are quite fastidious about keeping the Slants' (and other '60s cars as well) wheels properly ground (along the Canarsie Line, they are often eerily quiet, even on the "S" curve north of Sutter and the tight curve near Graham), but every so often one will pop up where the wheels aren't trued well and the track isn't lubricated/ground properly. This can cause the Slant to sing excessively. #4312-13 were quite noisy leaving 9th Avenue on the turnouts, entering the tunnel, switching to the express track, AND in the labyrinth north of Pacific and DeKalb. They seemed noisier making right-hand turns than left-hand ones, for some odd reason.
wayne
Mixed R-68 and R-68a trains run often, there is usually one consist that way every day. Sometimes its on the B, usually its on the N, sometimes (rarely) its on the D. It is usually a different set every few days. I think its because they need a certain # of trains, and sometimes (due to sets going OOS because of A/C, motor, or other problems) they end up with one set of Westinghouse and one set of Kawasaki. I have never seen more than one consist like this on any given day.
I just got my scanner (90$ at Radio Shack on sale) and I donb't have most of the passenger and transit frequencies. I need the following.
SEPTA Rail
SEPTA Subway
NJT all devisions
LIAR all divisions
Met N all divisions
NYCS all
Amtrak all just to make sure mine are right.
Thank you.
You should get a copy of The Compendium of American Railroad Radio Frequencies, 15th Edition
And while your on the web, see places like these, as stolen from Long Island Scanning Resources
Railroad
U.S. Railroad Frequencies
New Jersey Railroad Scanner Frequencies
Gary L. Sturm's RR Radio Man Web Site
Amtrak Radio Frequencies for Scanners
Radio Frequencies Used by Amtrak - Eastern Routes
Radio Frequencies Used by Amtrak - Western Routes
Norfolk & Southern Scanner Frequencies
Bill's Current Scanner Setup (New York City Area Railroad freqs.)
Canadian Railroad Frequncies
Canadian National Railroad Frequencies
New Zealand Railway Radio Frequencies
Also see:
NY Transit PD and Rail Operations
railroad
Central Jersey Railfan Page
--Mike
Today on my surface subway ride I was blessed with having a very tanelted operator. Most trollies lurch along, stopping and starting at all the timed signals held at red. Well this guy knew their timing down pat and was able to maintain an exact, constant speed that put out LRV past all the signals w/o having to stop. Then, just past 36th St. station he simply blew through a red signal (b4 a sharp curve) at like 10-15 mph. Didn't even attempt to slow down. I admire his courage to put the passengers trip before ass-a-9 safty prosecdures.
wuz this on the newark city or the hudson bergen?
From the context, and his past posts, he's talking about the Philadelphia Subway-Surface lines...
-Dave
thanx - i was confused there for a moment
Most definitely. At least he didn't have the fun I had Monday, when we were stopped cold just past the 36-Sansom station.
Chuck Greene
So you enjoy a SPAD huh??
Customer on time arrvival should never be put before saftey. A "S"ignal "P"assed "A"t "D"anger should never happen period. You can argue all you want that there shouldn't be a red signal there but don't pass it.
Do Surface Subway signals even show danger? I thought they showed "Stop and Proceede".
I don't know what line you were talking about. Normaly a solid red wihtout anything else like a number board of white light is stop and stay in standard railroad rules. Each system could have a difference (flashing red).
Yes, a red signal on that road gives the indication "stop
and proceed". Question: did this operator stop and proceed?
Sounds like he forgot the stop part. I don't know if you
understand just how BAD that is...one of the worst things you
can do on a railway. Suppose there was another car laying
down just around that sharp curve?
It was the 70 degree curve right b4 the 37th St. station and this was about 10 am and there had been no trains in front of us since we left 30th St.
It was the 70 degree curve right b4 the 37th St. station and this was about 10 am and there had been no trains in
front of us since we left 30th St.
Jersey Mike,
I think you're a young man and not currently involved in any
kind of railway operations. This would be a good point to learn
a safety lesson. I can't tell you how many accidents have
happened because of this type of reasoning error. I'm not familiar
with the trackage in question. However, let's do a "what if".
You hadn't seen your leader the whole trip. This makes you think
that he is far ahead of you. WHAT IF he is laying down at this
37ST station for the past 10 minutes. The operator that you held
up as a role model comes flying around this blind curve. He
is probably operating at a speed such that his stopping distance
is considerably greater than his range of vision. He reasons away
the red signal as being at danger because the timer hasn't cleared.
His leader was far ahead the whole trip so imagine his surprise
when he rounds that curve and has just enough time to say "oh shit!"
before he smashes into the next train.
Think it can't happen? It has, over and over and over again in
the history of railroading. That's why you take the safe course
and stop at a red signal. Once you've stopped, you can start up
again at what is known as "restricted speed", which is slow enough
to permit stopping within HALF your range of vision. Why half?
Because another motorman might be doing the same thing on the same
track in the opposite direction, coming right towards you.
On a system like NYCT, with positive train control ("trip arms"),
this is enforced mechanically. On most railroads, it's up to
the judgement of the motorman or engineer to obey the signals.
If you don't respect the signals, you're GONE, simple as that.
Well first of all the LRV was only going like 10 mph and with those direct rail contact shoes the LRV's can stop on a dime. The curve was only about 70 degrees (not the usual 90) and the driver had some view around the curve. I only support his actions because I believe that signals should not be used to enforce permient speed restrictions. Signals are for variable speed informations, signs are for permient speed information.
signals should not be used to enforce
permient speed restrictions. Signals are for variable speed informations, signs are for permient speed
information.
You're right, without trip arms to create enforcement, timer
signals can be ignored just as easily as the little yellow signs.
On the big railroads, you are expected to know the MAS for a given
section of track. There isn't necessarily a little "slow down"
sign before a sharp curve. However, where cab signals with ASC
are in place, sometimes you'll get a code drop to protect it.
Just to add isn't a Stop and Proceed normaly proceed at a more restricted speed until the next signal?
I don't know of any railway where blowing through a red signal
is acceptable (unless, of course, this were a railroad where
the big choo-choos play and this was a red automatic with a "G"
plate being passed by a freight).
This is the Subway-Surface trackage (streetcar) where signals do not have trippers. It's like running a red traffic signal, only there's no cops around to give you a citiation.
One of my acquiantences used to work for PTC out of Woodland Depot, and delighted in running reds, especially in the time signals under the river, among other things and there were many. He left, long before the SEPTA era, under a cloud. No transit system, anywhere will hire the guy to this day.
{{he simply blew through
a red signal (b4 a sharp curve) at like 10-15 mph. Didn't even attempt to
slow down. I admire his courage to put the passengers trip before ass-a-9
safty prosecdures. }}
Excuse me? Red means STOP now--not next block, mot next time.
Running a light is a bad idea.
I think it was in Boston, (circa late 70s) where the Red signals were enforced by a camera making a picture of the operator in question.
Has anyone heard of this?
Elias
2 days ago an Amtrak train removed another deficient person from the gene pool. This one was at the Bridesburg station on the NEC when she was hit by a 90 mph train while attempting to cross the tracks. Apperently local kids use the usually vacent passenger shelters as a hangout and use to track area to drink and do drugs because they are away from the ptying eyes of the police. The only thing that can come of this (b-sides a lawsuit) are un-photogenic barriers in the middle of the tracks. Maybe if a railfan could have been there this accident could have been averted.
The barriers will probably make things worse, the kids will spend more time on the tracks walking around or jumping over.
Tandy (Radio Shack) Center still has their subway. Three cars running, 5 cars in the barn. Since TC has added the outlet center and new office space, the parking lot was fulled. Great security, guard riding around in small three wheel motorbikes. Friendly staff.
One station was moved (realined)for possible route along the Trinity River to the Zoo.
Three ex CTA el cars were in their yard area, being stripped of parts. The main thing is get the PCC controls and trucks.
Only one ex MBTA PCC was rebuilt as a TC subway car. The MBTA cars are 3 feet too long for the station platform.
At least 10 set of PCC trucks are on the property, mostly from ex Boston PCC (bodies scrapped)
One ex NYCTA RTS bus was brought as backup if the subway was shut down.
Dallas LRV doing great. Plenty of places north of downtown to get photos.
Extension to Plano along 75 (Central Expressway) is moving along. The station shed at Richardson can been seen from along the expressway.
People in Dallas are trained NOT TO walk onto a street if the Don't Walk sign is on. Try that in New York! Their police will ticket you for jay walking. No vehicles on the street is no excuse to jay walk.
West End of Dallas is like the SOHO of New York City.
Two car RDC shuttle to Irving still runs. It is being used. Extra RDC are stored at the T&P station Fort Worth. Great ride, and cheap too!
Surtran, Airtran, and Citran names are gone (Surtran bus to downtown from DFW, Airtran shuttle cars at DFW, Citran Fort Worth local bus services.)
DFW people mover are now free. Used to cost 25 cents to ride. Change machine back then gave back only 95 cents on a dollar. Railfan seat still there, and on the right and the left side.
No more rental car shuttle buses. A common shuttle (fleet of low floor 40' Gillies) takes you to a covered area at the south end to the rental desk. Cars are now in a covered area. No more HOT cars. Old rental lots have weeds growing.
Weather was good three of the five days (overcast). Made up my two year TEX-MEX crave in three days.
I'm sure anyone reading SubTalk would also enjoy a visit to McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. It takes 30 minutes for a round-trip on one of the old streetcars. Be sure to visit the car barn to see the other cars in the fleet. See www.mata.org.
I wish I had the opportunity. But my meetings were up at Plano Tues-Wed-Thur, and lasted till 5:30.
There are still RDCs running! I am unfortunate to have been born a decade too late, or I would have ridden them on NJT.
http://www.dart.org/home.htm
DART's 13 RDC will be around for a while. BTW Fare is $1.00, cheaper than a frank with kraut.
This ferry appears on The Map and yet I don't know anyone who's even seen it let alone take it. Does anyone here know anything about it?
It runs from Atlantic Highlands, NJ to lower Manhattan. It's very expensive. I think it's over $500/month to commute into the city. It's advantage is that it's quicker than bus or car via the Garden State Parkway into Manhattan.
[It runs from Atlantic Highlands, NJ to lower Manhattan. It's very expensive. I think it's over $500/month to commute into the city. It's advantage is that it's quicker than bus or car via the Garden State Parkway into Manhattan.]
There are some extremely upscale areas near Atlantic Highlands, the town of Rumson in particular, so I would imagine that the high cost is no burden for many riders.
It does sound like it would be an interesting day trip in nice weather.
Actually, when you factor in the costs of mileage, parking and tolls (parking in Atlantic Highlands is free with your ferry ticket, I believe) it really isn't that expensive. A neighbor of mine drives from Eatontown to Atlantic Highlands in his battered old Pontiac and then takes the ferry to work (he's a computer tech for a brokerage firm).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm booking an 'Empire Service' train reservation from NYP to upstate (beyond Albany, so one of the Buffalo trains). For 'Business Class', Amtrak would charge me about $45 extra, but, according to their description, the only thing that gets me is some extra leg-room. Anybody traveled 'business class' and think its worth it, and why?
The last time I took it (on the NEC), I would judge it as a trade-off:
Business class -- everyone had a cell phone, and screamed into it.
Coach class -- everyone had a kid, screaming.
So it's a matter of preference -- do you prefer businessmen or children screaming?
[So it's a matter of preference -- do you prefer businessmen or children screaming? ]
Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
I haven't ridden the Empire service in about 3 years, and there is definitely a difference between the runs which only go as far as Albany (strictly business people on day trips and a very quiet ride in coach or business) and those going beyond.
My assessment of the trips going beyond Albany:
Coach Class -- Everyone has kids who are screaming, unless they're a college kid themselves (in which case they have their stuff sprawled across multiple seats and into the aisles)
Business Class -- Consists of about half of the cafe car, lots of legroom but plenty of noise coming from people visiting the cafe. Also lots of cursing from frustrated business people trying to use their cell phones but finding out that for whatever reason (interference, geography, I'm not sure) cell phone reception is terrible along the line.
The only time I ever thought it was worth it was during Thanksgiving weekend on the NEC, when opting for (unreserved) coach meant standing for 4 hours while Business Class (which was then Custom Class) meant I'd be guaranteed a seat. In trains that are all-reserved in coach anyway, I don't see the point of paying so much for extra legroom when the legroom in coach is quite adequate, at least for me.
I *have* shelled out the extra bucks for a Metroliner betw. NY & DC, as opposed to a 'Northeast Direct' unreserved train. In effect, the whole train is 'Business Class' (except for a small section of 'First Class'), and it gets there faster with fewer stops, this being the *main* reason I upgraded. No such benefits on an 'Empire' train.
I'll upgrade to Custom on a regular NE Direct if Coach is 3/4 full, just to get the extra leg room, no kids and somebody asking for my seat at each stop if I had to get up. (Doesn't anyone know what a seat check is anymore??).
As for the MetroLiner, only if work is paying for it...
I have used the custom class on the San Diegans numerous times, It was worth it especially on weekends and Summers, when there was standing room only in the regular cars
Ride coach. You'll have a better chance of getting a refurbished car where you can use your laptop. I rode from Penn. Station to Poughkeepsie and the coach car was refurbished and the business car was old.
Are the refurbished cars the ones with the blue curtains and digital signs? I remember having one back in '98, and it was not a custom class car.
Yes, they are. I rode from Richmond to Newark last October on one. Talk about cattle car, though - from Baltimore north it was S.R.O. even though I was on an all-reserved train. It appeared that, at least on that particular Sunday, Amtrak wasn't doing a very good job of keeping those patrons with unreserved tickets off the reserved trains. People with reserved seats through to Boston were complaining that they were having to stand; when I got up to get off in Newark two of them started squabbling over my seat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe it comes with a complimentary beverage and newspaper. A reserved seat in the café car (or adjacent car) is probably what you'll get, unless you're on the Turboliner, where business class is basically in the engine and the café is in the middle, so you're the furthest from the food. Of course, those Albany trains can get pretty crowded, so having a reserved seat might be worth it so you don't have to sit right next to some loud guy with a cell phone, or a screaming baby.
Well, Guys, I decided to opt for the upgrade to 'Business Class' after all. I decided I'd rather deal with cell phone users than having to stand, *and* listen to kids scream. It's a 'special' trip for me, not one I'll take often, so the comfort of a reserved seat likely far from the more crowded part of the train won me over. I already had a fare discount anyway. Besides, I had occasion to ride on a newly remodeled 'Business Class' car recently on a 'Keystone' train to Harrisburg (a lucky instance of equipment allocation for me, I guess), so I know and like the environs on the cars -- don't know if the 'Empire' train's business class uses the same equipment. (Have the turboliners begun service on the line yet?)
Incidentally, I researched airfare to my upstate destination and found that travelling by air more than doubles the cost (even with the business class upgrade) and saves no time because of connections. I wonder if the marketing wizards at Amtrak are aware of this.
If anybody belongs to the AAA you get a 10pct discount on Amtrak.
Does anyone remember/have any links for the kid in the early 90s that took over an A train?
As I remember, he made several stops correctly, and only got caught because he took a turn too sharply and triggered the emergency brakes...
This story always interested me, and I always wondered what happened to the kid. Thought this would be a place where people might remember that sort of thing... but I couldn't find it on the site anywhere.
rv
sounds like fun
It's been discussed here several times.
I don't think "took a turn too sharply" could possibly be the reason he got tripped up-- I mean, after all, the tracks are laid the same way for every motorman :-) Too fast is more like it...
-Dave
There was an incident where Keron Thomas did operate a subway train on the A line but it wasn't exactly "stealing". There are some "employee imposters" who carry their own stolen tools, and wear uniforms as well in order to deceive personel and operate equipment, such as trains and buses. Mr Thomas befriended an employee before this incident in order to tap information and subsequently reported to one of his terminals of report while out sick. Working the extra list brings you to many foreign terminals in which many times I did not have my ID checked so it is easy to see why Darrius McCollum can steal a bus or Keron can take a train. He did run a red signal because he rounded the curve coming into 175 Street northbound at excessive speed, which is covered by grade time signals. He was finally caught because he didn't know the penalty recovery time of R44 cars. Supervision was suspended at the sign on terminal involved and we now receive a bulletin from the Chief Transportation Office once a year asking our supervision to check passes on unknown personel.
I wasn't going to point out that it couldn't exactly be "stealing" because the miscreant had no intent to permanently deprive the true owner of possession of its property. That was my first reaction, but I decided that that was legal hair splitting. I guess we lawyers aren't the only people who split such hairs. Of course, if he had had some way of removing the train from TA tracks, that would have been different: the great train larceny.
He reported in and operated in service, how can that be stealing??
The supervisor gave him the run!!
Yah I'd call it impresonating a T/O or whatever, stealing?? Nope.
Considering the potential for disaster, at the minimum, the unauthorized operation of a train in service should result in a charge of "Reckless Endangerment" at the very least. If an injury or death should result from such operatiion, the charges shoud vary from assault to criminally negliget homocide. I don't think that such an act should ever be viewed as a harmless prank.
Which begs the question: How DO you steal a subway train, short of constructing an electrified siding off a mainline to your backyard? Wouldn't that make it easy to "track" you down? (ok, bad pun).
How do you steal a car? The theft does not begin when you pull into your driveway. The theft begins when you enter the vehicle for illegal reasons. To be perfectly reasonable, I'd say that if you are caught in a motorman's cab with a reverser key and a brake handle (or an open end wrench and socket wrench of the correct sizes) that's prima-facia evidence that you intended to steal (or illegally operate) the train.
Because there is no way to actually "steal" a subway train (i.e., you just can't remove it from the system by normal means), Keron Thomas could have been brought up on the lesser "Theft of Services" charges (besides Reckless Endangerment). Actual "Theft" or "Robbery" wouldn't apply here.
Doug aka BMTman
Or, as someone mentioned, unauthorized use.
That reminds me: Ever heard about the dumbness Felon?
He wanted to hijack the D Train to Cuba!!!
;-)
And with the R68's on the D line these days, he'd probably arrive in downtown Havana in early 2215 ...
That does it. RIM SHOT!!!!!!
Remember Rico Patrone's line in the original Pelham 1-2-3?
I think I just figured out how they're going to get away. They're going to fly the train to Cuba.
I read a story in Trains magazine of the 50's or so about somebody who knew the railroad, the rules [enough to put white "extra" flags on the steam loco he took off with.] and went merrily on his way, running light thru the countryside. Some dispatcher finally noticed after an operator reported Extra l000 west lets say, I don't recall, by his station that he never authorized such a movement. The next operator (train order) station was notified, he dropped the order signal to red..and dutifully the thief[?] stopped the loco according to rules. The sheriff was waiting for him. The case was thrown out of court when the judge said the loco. was never removed from C&NW property. Was this another kid railfan that knew the railroad and rules, or was it a disgruntled, discharged employee? Don't know.
rv:
I do remember back in 1993 to be exact when the kid "stole" the "A" train. As I recall he ran a red signal and the emergency brake were triggered and he was going a bit to fast. Apparently he was a subway buff and when the TV news reporters visited the apartment where he lived there were all kinds of stickers pasted on the walls and to the door of his room that were all subway related. He got into trouble for something else serious at a later date which might have been weapons possession. I don't know what has happened to him since.
BMTJeff
YA know how much grief I had to put up with from family and friends after this incident :-) ...
I don't recall the 'A' train incident, but I do remember another incident back in the early 1980's when a kid was caught operating a train at the World Trade Center IND terminal. Apparently he was a friend of the motorman and was riding with him downtown when the motorman became ill. The motorman then got off the train a few stops early to use the bathroom and let the kid finish the run! Nobody suspected anything was wrong, not even the train's conductor, until somebody saw the kid walking back at WTC to start the return trip!
I don't remember which line this occured on, but the 'AA' and 'E' operated to WTC at the time. The news stories did not indicate what kind of cars were involved, of course.
Does anyone else remember this incident?
- Jim (RailBus)
I BELIEVE it was an E with either R 32s or 38s....
If you guys know your PRR trivia the Prinston Shuttle (The Dink) was stolen on several non-consecutive occasions by princeton students who would run the little MP-54 up and down the line during the wee hours of the morning. Also the line from Princetom Jct to Princeton was once its own RR called the PJ&B or Princeton Junction and Back.
I rode the PJ&B at an early hour of the AM with a friend of mine who was a student at Princeton at the time.
The line, BTW, was never independent. It was always a part of the PRR. The PJ&B was a nickname given by (who else?) Princeton students in the 1930's.
I heard a Philadelphian refer to the PJ&B as the TP&B (To Princeton and Back). Same line, different perspective.
Bob
The MP-54's also had the Princeton seal on their front doors.
I remember it Very well. The kid who Stole the A Train's name was Keron Thomas. He got access because a T/O was drunk. He stole an R44 from the Rockaway park yard. I dunno where he began service, but from what I understand, I think he Ran over a Trip arm because of speeding against a Timer. He never made it north of 59 I believe. He almost made it, but I think he ran a Homeball or a Automatic Controlled by a Tower, because when he was tripped, the Tower knew where to send the police. He didn't know how to reset the Train. He was supposed to go to Jail for one year, but he didn't. The last I heard about him was on a Newsday paper where he stood on a pole in 168th street station and the paper said Don't Follw in my Tracks. Anyway the TA forgave him, and they said he could come back and become a Motorman because he did a Good job operating the A. However, he was involved with a Rape or Stabbing so the TA withdrew their offer.
BY THE WAY, HE WAS 19 WHEN HE STOLE IT. THAT AINT A KID!!!!!!!!
Paul
I'd like to know where you get your facts from as you are totally off or this is your idea of a joke. Or is this HeyPaul, in which case I will forgive the mistatements.
engine brake... please leave me out of this... i am currently involved in growing devil bats who i am training to attack various enemies of mine... i do not have time to make up silly stories... i only read this message board to watch my enemies destroy themselves... again, please leave me out of this... i am above all of this silliness...
Ah this confirms a story that I heard about heypaul. At age 13 he got a bat as a Bar Mitvah gift but it flew away before he got to play with it.
Ah this confirms a story that I heard about heypaul. At age 13 he got a bat as a gift but it flew away before he got to play with it.
I believe Keron Thomas first "stole" an A train (5/93) and made an uneventful trip from 207th to Lefferts, then took another trip back and got caught running a red signal north of 175th St.
And yes, he did have several run-ins with the law after this incident, including some kind of sexual assualt. He was also a minor at the time he stole the train.
All in All, I'm not Keron Thomas, but for some dumb reason I've been mistaken for the cat several times, He has 7 years on me! LOL! I'm only 20 now!
The basis of the problem is........Extremely Nice Motorman/Bus Operators. I've been shown how to operate just about every car operated today including the R142 and several types of NYCT Bus. Not to bust up on the fun of us younger rail/bus fans, but I even felt wierd being taught this. I felt like I was being given the code to the pandora's box at the CIA.
If Keron's motorman friend never showed him how to operate the subway car, I very much so doubt that incident would've even have happened!
YOUNG FANS, IT'S NOT THAT DEEP, BE PATIENT, TAKE THE TEST AND YOU'LL GET THERE!
Flxible Metro B #3511
That's good advice my friend. Being wise is the best way to go. I may never set foot in the TA as a T/O, but I do the next best thing: Operate retired Rapid Transit Equipment at the local Trolley Museum. It's a blast! Enjoy your hobby to it's fullest.
-Stef
You got alot of the facts WRONG.
First of all, Thomas was 16 or 17 when he "stole" that A train. As a matter of fact I recall reading that part of his reason for doing what he did was to impress his high school classmates. It was sort-of "how do you top this?" kind of one-upmanship. However, he was well versed in NYC rapid transit operations since he honed up on T/O procedures by befriending NYCT employees (as many young railfans would do).
A year or so after the A train incident, I recall he made headlines once again when he pulled a knife on another youth during an argument over a street game of "craps." I believe he when to jail over that infraction.
Doug aka BMTman
Okay now that i'm bored I'm going to put in all of the other questions that I can think of now so please answer or else you will be forced to watch the Teletubbies for 10 hours! okay....
1. The rockaway division appears to be ex-LIRR - my question was, was the center express track used to run expresses to Lefferts BEFORE the Rockaway line was converted to subway?
2. Did the Franklin Av. Shuttle originally connect to the Fulton St. El in the days before it was killed by the IND four-track?
3. The track arrangement at Utica on the IRT suggests that the Express tracks (4) were going to be extended east on a different line then the New Lots one. Was this ever proposed?
4. Has anyone ever proposed taking the northern tail of the 1/9, converting it to BMT/IND, hooking it into the A and then only running 1/9s as far north as Washington Heights?
5. Where was the IRT Nostrand line originally planned to extend to?
6. Were the center express tracks on the F north of Church ever used? Was the Express track south of church used by trains AFTER the IND built the northern tail of the F?
7. Why was the J/Z only built as a two-track when they knew Jamaica was going to be the central terminus for all things LIRR? Did they run out of money?
8. The F-line in Queens, was it ever planned to be extended east? It seems off that they'd go to the trouble to put in 4-track and then never get it much farther than Sutphin.
9. Did there used to be a J el out towards Jamaica that ran near where the J now enters the subway?
10. Am I asking too many questions?
If you have the answers to any or all of these please post them now. Muchos Gracias!
1. I've never heard of any revenue service on the Liberty Ave express tracks, before 1956 (as a BMT line) or after (when it was x-ferred to the IND. However, the old-timers would know for sure.
2. Yes. This connection was severed when the Flatbush Ave corridor pened, connecting the Brighton line to the 4th Ave subway at Dekalb, in 1920.
3. Yes. The Utica Ave. extension has been proposed several times in the past 80 years.
4. Not that I've heard of.
5. The 1929 IND Second system had the line extended all the way to Voorhies Ave. in Sheepshead Bay. I'm not sure where IRT planners were gonna terminate it before then.
6. Yes and yes. The express tracks were used north of Church from 1967-73 during rush hours, with the G running local south of Smith/9th. Carrol Garden's residents killed it after complaining about the loss of direct service to Manhattan. The center express track along McDonald was also used from 1973-1987 to provide peak direction express service by alternating F trains, with Kings Highway trains running local and thru trains to CI running express.
7. The original plan was to construct a flying express track over the Fulton St. portion, and an express track along Jamaica Ave. It was put off, delayed, then forgotton about.
8. Yes, all the way to the Nassau county border in some plans.
9. Yes. Out to 168th/Jamaica. Stations were:
168th/Jamaica (closed 9/9/77)
160th/Jamaica (closed 9/9/77)
Sutphin Blvd. (closed 9/9/77)
Queens Blvd. (closed 4/15/85)
Metropolitan Ave. (closed 4/15/85)
Don't get me started on this subject. It's a pet peeve of mine and I don't want to go on another rant about this monumental disaster. LOL.
10. No. That's why this message board exists.
Hope I've helped.
5-Also the Irt was going to extend Nostrand Ave to Ave X and Meet the Utica Extension and share a elevated Term, Stops were supposed to Be Ave L, Kings Hwy, Ave R, U and X. That is why Flatbush Ave is a side platform, rather then a island
so why are the new lots tracks connected to the south side of the utica platform? wouldn't it have been easier to connect the north side instead? if utica had ever been built it would have required crossing the new lots and utica tracks....
I think the (6) does that anyway between 125th St and where it turns east to 3rd Av at 138th St. Presumably the express tracks under Eastern Pkwy would have crossed under the locals.
I've never seen any plans, but I assume that, if the trains were to stop first at Utica Av, the line would have turned down Rochester or Buffalo Av and then returned to Utica Av via East New York Av.
Bob Sklar
Your questions suggest that you haven't explored many of the other, really great parts of this website. There are not only answers there to most of your questions; there are even answers to questions you haven't even thought of yet.
Just to get you started, the answers to 2, 6, 8, 9, and 10 are yes, yes to both, yes, yes, and yes. For more details, get off your butt and check out the rest of this site.
4. Not even sensible.
1 South Ferry 9
and why not? the northern tail is dual contracts, and running the A's on that section would provide faster service to manhattan (since the a goes nonstop from 125 to 59 and on the 1/9 you have to either put up with mass stops or change to a 2/3 instead now WHY wouldn't you want to have the northern tail of the 1/9 NOT be the A (not to mention the higher capacity of BMT/IND trains)
The Dual Contracts extension were in the mid-teens, were they not? Such as Lex north of GC, 7th Ave.below Times Sq., Most of the IRT in Brooklyn. and most of the BMT subway. Upper Broadway was one of the first additions to the original IRT, about l905, maybe a year or so later? That isn't dual contracts... whether those deep rock tunnels have clearances for the wider cars I can't say.
I doubt they have the clearance for B Division cars, since they were part of the original contract (and the site of the worse loss of life during construction), and I'm sure if there was enough room in their for regular-sized crash walls between the uptown and downtown trains, they would have put those in already for safety reasons. Plus, the ramp down to the tunnels from where the A/C are now at 168th Street would be a pretty steep grade over a short distance.
i never said they should connect at 168th I said that the 1/9s should terminate at 207th and that the northern tail of the 1/9 should connect to the very end of the A at 207th. Where did 168th come from?
The trains could use the elevators.
I can answer a few questions.
The Nostrand Ave. line was planned to go to Ave. W (as of 1968)
The Queens Blvd line went as far as 169th St. by 1940. According to
proposals put forth in July 1940, the line would first be extended to
179th St. (done in 1950), then to 212th St., and then to Little Neck Road.
The Jamaica Ave. line went as far as 168th St.
Minor correction----The street is Little Neck PARKWAY
Today marks a sad day for all Railfans. Today July 5, 2000, Marks the one year anniversary of the retirement of SEPTA's Almond Joy cars. Luckily, I was able to get down to Philadelphia frequently to ride those great cars during their last months of service. Their last day in regular service was June 30, 1999. They were not officially retired until their last run on July 5, 2000, When a train of them were chartered by the ERA as a part of their National convention. Now, what used to be a fleet of 207 cars, Is down to around 15 with 5 in work service. Only two have been preserved, 606 in the Arden museum and 618 which is awaiting transportation to the Seashore Trolley Museum.
There were 270 cars
officially retired until their last run on July 5, 2000
Do you mean last year, or was there a fantrip I just missed?
--Mark
That fantrip was on 7/5/99.
Wow, I rode them on June 29th 1999, I had no idea their retirement was that soon after.
What are the plans for the Seasshore Almond Joy, if anyone out the knows?
The movement date has yet to be determied. The car will be operable and be operated at Seashore thanks to a pair of standard guage trucks from PATH (Which are from scrapped "K" cars) I still can't imagine 618, an Almond Joy, with a trolley pole on it....
-Mark
I know the Pennsylvania trolley museum has no plans to run their almond joy.
Yes, they are power hogs that make LRV's look downright economical.
Arden figured that even if they were to put trolley poles on it, which they will not do, it still would run only if nothing else was on the line. Their sub will accomodate 6 or 7 cars all starting at the same time.
With Seashore's demand meter on their trolley power, excess draw at the wrong time costs them many $$$ they didn't expect to spend.
I forgot to mention that one other thing affected Arden's Almond Joy not getting poles was the historical accuracy involved. PRMA is trying to be more professionaly driven, and while putting trolley poles on an Almond Joy may make it operational (ignoring the power question), it never ran that way in service, so, no trolley poles.
Third rail is, of course, out of the question.
I remember reading the PTM newsletter when they acquired the car and thats exactly what they said. It seemed as if they were "dissing" other museums who did put trolley poles on rapid transit equipment that were not originally equiped with such,.
They do seem to have a different attitude, to say the least. Of course, if they're going to be consistent, then I would assume that they plan to restore 803-804 as an Electroliner rather than as a LibertyLiner :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arden isn't the one with the Liberty Liner, It's Railways to Yesterday at Orbisonia, and they plan to restore it as a Libery Liner, but with poles a la CNS&M, as third rail is also out of the question.
It's gonna be interesting to see that beast running at Shade Gap - it should give their sub indegestion. So far it's confined to their newest carbarn, no firm date for restoration, they have a lot on the plate ahead of it.
IRM has the other, restored as the North Shore intended, with the railroad to run it on. Nirvanna for the First and Fastest.
[It's gonna be interesting to see that beast running at Shade Gap - it should give their sub indigestion.]
When the P&W's Villanova sub went down, they stopped using the Liberty Liner until they brought the sub back online. After a short time running it again they realized that the need for track maintenance had been significantly reduced during its absence, so they removed it from service again.
Bob
Dan, you're absolutely right, not sure what I was thinking - I saw and photographed it there in '93 (sitting outside rotting away) and even bought a t-shirt with its picture on it. Probably I read Arden and somehow translated that into Orbisonia. Thanks for setting me straight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't understand the mindset where you restore a thing but then don't make it possible to operate for it's intended purpose.
i.e. museums should make as much of their collections available for the public to re-live or sample for the first time. They used to say that coming to Shoreline was a trip down memory lane ... well there aren't too many who remember riding the 100 year old cars, BUT there are a lot of happy customers that have experienced them for the first time ... me included as I only got to ride the PCCs and I'm a 50 somethinger.
Many wouldn't like in Rome or Egypt either, i.e. restore the Coliseum and hold events there ... ask the French to put the nose back on the Sphinx (they shot it off) & re-paint it. I here some growns, but think about it.
Mr t__:^)
The museums are trying to move towards more "professional" status. The AAM (American Association of Museums), which is orientated towards the "traditional museum) are slowly realizing that the "Living Museum" concept (Practiced at all operating streetcar and railroad museums) is also valid.
So, museums are moving to being more professional, especially in regards to equipment.
Example: BSM obtained Baltimore crane 3715 in a three-way swap orchestrated by Shore Line's Bill Wall and BSM's Ed Amrhiein. The car was built in 1913 by the United Railway's Carroll Park shops and used by URE and Baltimore Transit until 1954, when Branford acquired it. As built the car had specialy sprung Brill 27G trucks and WH 101B motors.In 1939, BTC re-equipped the crane with new hoisting machinery and boosted the car's weight to 72,300 lbs from the previous 68,150 lbs. This overloaded the car's trucks.
AT BSM we will replace the 27G trucks with a pair of Brill E-50 trucks, which can safely handle the increased weight. The car's original specs are archived in the BSM library, noting the changes made and why. This is being done to be more professional in caring for our archival material. We fully intend to use 3715 for the purpose it was built - Track and Shop work.
[The museums are ... slowly realizing that the "Living Museum" concept ... is also valid.]
An example of would be "childern's museums".
[BSM obtained Baltimore crane 3715 in a three-way swap orchestrated by Shore Line's Bill Wall ...]
We (Shoreline) already had another crane, #W3, a 1929er from Montreal, that is operation and used quite frequently. We got a gasoline powered version in return. This we're getting operational too, e.g. just in case a tree should knock a pole down so there's no electrical power. on the line.
This just goes to show how two museums use the equip. instead of letting them rust in one of the barns. BTW, I've been part of the crew on the W3 several times (not the operator, just crew). Doing track work or moving ties is hard work, but FUN just the same for a railfan.
Mr t__:^)
[I still can't imagine 618, an Almond Joy, with a trolley pole on it....]
It took me a while (a couple minutes, anyway) to get used to seeing P&W Bullit car #205, which I rode many times to and from work in Radnor, with a trolley pole at the Rockhill Trolley Museum, where I've ridden it several more times.
Bob
07/06/2000
[[I still can't imagine 618, an Almond Joy, with a trolley pole on it....]
How about Branford?
It took me while to get used to seeing an R-9 with a trolley pole on it. Now an R-17!.......that took even longer. And what if an R-33 single is acquired by Branford?, A repaint back to the aqua blue and white and what's that on the roof? A TROLLEY POLE !! YIKES!!
Bill "Newkirk"
It sounds freaky doesn't it? Look it at this way, we don't have to obtain a working car, it could just sit there. But I would like to see a WF Car rolling down the line, so a Trolley Pole is a must....
-Stef
... and besides, it grows on ya.
--Mark
It's also nice to be able to quickly pull the 600 off the car
to work on something on the road.
I plan to do the work on #618 at Seashore. It will probably be moved by summer's end.
The car will be placed on ex-PATH trucks, currently under the "Berkshire Hills" parlor car body. However, new center bearings need to be made, since #618 is a "pure" almond joy, not a "Budd Lite" car modified for use on the Norristown line. This is not too much of a challenge, but will require a few dollars and some time.
I have to do some studying first, but I plan to do a "minimally invasive" trolley pole installation (one at each end since the car probably can't be looped). My guess is that I can build a framework around the fan bulges to attach trolley boards to. I did a similar job on "Bridge" car #1023, from the Broad Street line.
Other than that, the car will be preserved 'as-is', under a tarpaulin temporarily intil a new car barn is constructed. The original trucks will be preserved at Seashore as part of the collection, but will probably not be used.
If my colleagues on this site wouldn't mind a sales pitch, we will probably need about $10,000 just to move #618 and get some work going at Seashore. I've pledged $500, plus my time and labor. ANY donations, large or small, would be gratefully appreciated (and certainly well spent).
Perhaps a few Philadelphia-types can start a "dinner club", this worked well for Seashore in the past. Everyone in the club contributes, regularly, the cost of a dinner (say $10-$20) to the #618 fund. If about ten people do this, the money builds up fairly quickly, ensuring maintenance and indoor storage for #618 in the long term. We currently have a club for M&B car #41 that's raised about $10K in about 2 years, I'm a member. All we need is a Phila - area Almond Joy club "ringleader".......
I was just looking at pictures of them! I wasn't fortunate enough to get to ride them in their last days. They (and to a little lesser extent, the PCC's and Kawasakis) are what got me into transit in the first place. Does SEPTA plan to preserve any of what's left of them for the museum maybe. On SEPTA's web site, they were selling pieces of the cars for collectors...their numberboards, the original PTC maps the cars came with, the control stands, and a few other items.
Yesterday, there were multiple July 4th firework shows in Atlanta. This caused the whole system to look almost like Lexington Ave., except without as many delays, except one. I was on a packed train when the train suddenly stopped about a 1/8 mile short of Lindbergh. The train started creeping and stopping for almost five minutes. About two minutes into the ordeal the T/O came on the PA and said "please do not lean on the doors, this causes the train to stop" People around me quit leaning on the doors, but it took another three or so minutes for the train to finally make it to the station.
I never knew there were sensors built into doors that would stop the train. This has never happened to me before. I assume the T/O wasn't making this up since train kept creeping and stopping. Are there in fact door sensors to sense people leaning on doors?
On the NYCT system, once the doors are closed and locked, unless a piece of linkage breaks and a panel becomes free wheeling, this would not happen. Apparently the Atlanta system will sense door movement normally allowed for on the NYCT system. This movement tollerence (called push-back) is not normallly sensed once the doors are closed & locked.
Was this push-back feature present on the IRT, BMT or SIRT rolling stock?
I'm coming to NYC on 7/15 with two of my friends, who unfortunatly not much of railfans. I'm only going to be in NYC for a day (I get free flights wherever I want, and no I'm not sharing :)) How can a cover as much subway as possible without pissing my friends off? You know, like taking the real long way via Queens and Brooklyn to get from Times Sq. to WTC. Since I've been to NYC before, my friends are going to be following my lead. I'm planning on visting Times Sq., WTC, Coney Island, Grand Central, and maybe the Statue of Liberty. I'm only going to have about 10 hours to do some sight seeing, then I'm outta here. I'm going to be arriving at LGA, how do I get to the N line? What bus do I take? Should I take a taxi to the subway station?
No, me and my friends won't stand out looking like tourists. I look like I'm high (I've NEVER done drugs before), my other friend looks like he ready to kill someone (he wouldn't). Well, maybe my other friend will stand out, he's a redhead. So if you see a group of three 19 year olds fitting our descriptions, don't hesiate to go talk to them! :)
The M-60 bus stops at all terminals at LGA (in this order: Delta/Northwest, USAirways Shuttle, USAirways, Main Terminal, Delta Shuttle). The N station is at Ditmars Avenue, about a 10 minute ride from the airport. You'll know it when you get there... the "el" is overhead. (If you ride over the Triboro Bridge, you'll have gone too far! Then it's into Manhattan for either IRT line or the IND.) Buy a MetroCard at a newsstand first, so that you can take advantage of the free transfer to the N. Have fun!
thanks for the info. Do you mean a newstand at the airport or at Ditmars Ave.? Do they sell fun passes at the newsstands.
The station being referred is Astoria Blvd. NOT Ditmars Ave. Ditmars Ave doesn't exist....he probably meant Ditmars Blvd which is the terminal for the N....but to keep things simple:
- He probably meant the newstands at the airport
- The station he is referring to is Astoria Blvd
For present purposes, it doesn't matter what it's called. It's the first and only El the M60 will come to in Queens. If you ask the driver when you get on the M60, I'm sure he will point it out (if he remembers).
The newsstand at the airport... (I dont' think they sell FunPasses, though). And yes, of course I meant Astoria Blvd. Sorry for the confusion.
You have to go upstairs where people check in to get the Metro Card. The newstands by the gates do not sell them.
I'm surprised that there are no MVMs at LGA.
[You have to go upstairs where people check in to get the Metro Card. The newstands by the gates do not sell them. ]
Correct.
And ONLY *Hudson News* (their sign has blue letters) sells the MetroCards. If you go to any other "News" operation, you will not get a MetroCard, only blank stares.
Rob,
I suggest taking the Q48 bus to the #7 train to get from Queens to Times Sq. Your friends (and you, especially) will enjoy the spectacular views of Manhattan on the ride in. See if you can get in the first car, as all the R33/R36 Redbirds (I think these are the right rolling stock numbers, and someone will undoubtedly correct me if they're not!) have railfan windows. As the elevated train winds down Roosevelt Ave. through Queens, you will see the city skyline from distances great and near, and from many different angles! On the other hand, I think I remember reading somewhere that Georgians have a bit of an aversion to our beloved Queens IRT Corona/Flushing elevated subway. If that's the case, the M60 bus to the N train affords a quicker route, as well as views of the city. IMO, the #7 vistas are more extensive and exciting.
So, take the Q48 to 111 St. to catch the #7 train, where you will receive a free transfer with your Metrocard. (If you want to intersect with the #7 a bit closer to the city, you can catch the Q33 bus to transfer to the #7 at 74th St-Broadway, but I thought you and your buddies might enjoy seeing the Corona Park/Worlds Fairgrounds/Shea Stadium/USTA Center before heading to Manhattan.) Ask the bus driver to give a shout when you reach the transfer stop to the subway.
Airport navigation note: Since you are coming from Atlanta, you're probably flying Delta. At the Delta terminal, the city-bus stop is across the arrivals service road, so you must cross the street (where the taxis and limos are) to catch the buses. At the other 2 terminals (Main & US Airways), the stop is on the curb outside the terminal door (follow 'Ground Transportation - Buses' signs). If you happen to be flying US Airways (not Shuttle), there is currently *NO SIGNAGE* indicating that the MTA and Triboro Coach Corp (which is who operates Q48 - white bus w/ red stripe & metrocard still works) stop there. Just wait by the green bus shelter and catch the bus driver's eye as he approaches. If you decide to take the M60 to the N, you will wind through the airport and stop at the Marine Air Terminal (Delta Shuttle), looking like you are going the wrong way, but don't worry, you will get to the Astoria Blvd. N stop eventually. The stop is just after you cross under the el tracks.
Have a great time in NYC!
KP
Correction: It's the Q-33 that goes to the E/F/G/R/7 from Delta/Northwest, USAirways, and the Main Terminal. The Q-47 only goes from the Delta SHUTTLE from BOS and DCA.
I think I did mention that *both* the Q33 and the Q48 will take you to the #7 from the 3 major terminals at LGA. The Q33 will take you *also* to the E/F/G/R, as will the Q47, but the Q33 does *not* stop at the Delta Shuttle & Marine Air Terminal, and the Q47 does. Conversely, the Q47 does *not* stop at the 3 major terminals at LGA, only the Delta Shuttle & Marine Air Terminal. The M60 will take you to the N train and stops at all terminals at LGA. The Q48 also stops at all terminals, unless something has changed very recently or since this map (click here) from the MTA website was last updated. If you zoom in on La Guardia, it looks like Rob should be able to catch the Q48 I mentioned from any terminal at LGA.
True, Pete! But the Q-48's route from LGA to the 7 "back-tracks" to Flushing, resulting in a longer ride in. Good for us railfans, but probably not for Rob's friends!
Thanks for the great info everyone. Okay, lets get this straight: My choices are-
M60 to Astoria Bvld (N)
Q33 to 74th St.-Broadway (7)
Q48 to Flushing-Main St. (7).
I'm leaning towards the Q33 for the views. I would take the Q48, but I saw the map and it would probably take too long, maybe if I was alone I'd do it. I'll probably take the M60 to go back to the airport, so I can ride more parts of the subway.
If they don't sell Funpasses at the airport, would it be wise to buy a single ride Metrocard, and then buy a Funpass at an MVM somewhere?
Single ride MetroCards are not sold at the airport; you need an MVM for that. The newsstands only sell the pre-packaged kind, such as $15. But remember that you can bring up to three "friends" with you and gain free transfers, so you and your group can share.
Rob,
Sounds like a good plan. Take the Q33 to 74th St.-Broadway, but make sure you go upstairs to the #7 for the views, and not down to the Queens IND (E/F/G/R). The Q48 would definitely make you back-track a little -- I just thought you would be able to see the famous sights in Queens near Corona Park. You can take the N to the M60 on your return trip for a change of scene. Have fun!
KP
Do yourself a favor. Take a cab to Main & Roosevelt to get the "7" Flushing Line (Or Ditmars for the "N"). With 3 people the cab wouldn't be much more than the bus and it would get you there much faster. After all, what you really want to do is ride the subway, not a slow bus.
Does anybody know why this station still has lightbulbs?
Are there any other stations that still have lightbulbs?
I assume you mean incandescant, and its because the TA can't upgrade all 468 stations cheaply and easily. Look at most of the Queens IND stations, the mezzanines still use those 40 watt bulbs. The only fluorescent light is near the new MVMs, installed at the same time as the MVMs, to make people feel safer handling money around them. Sometimes 10 or 15 light bulbs in a certain section will be out, vandals enjoy doing this to make the area more hospitable for their cash acquisition. 168st (1/9) has large globes for lighting, several Rockaways stations have (as platform lighting) construction style lighting (bulbs behind yellow plastic things).
>>>Sometimes 10 or 15 light bulbs in a certain section will be out, vandals enjoy doing this to make the area more hospitable for their cash acquisition<<<
Believe it or not vandals are not always the case for large amounts of bulbs being out at any given time. Incandescent bulbs are wired in series of 5 if on blows out 4 others go dark with it. Incredible but true. Like the old lights that drive you nuts every Christmas.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was either wire them in series or find some other power supply. These bulbs are fed off the same 600VDC that runs the trains. It's really an elegant, low tech, low cost solution (which has that one drawback you mentioned).
BTW, don't forget that there are lots of stations in which you will see the old bulbs in place but (almost) never lit. In those stations, they're backup lighting.
Incandescent bulb-lit platforms, like carbon steel cars, bulkhead destination signs and tokens are all on their way towards being nothing but memories. Aside from Bronx Park East and Pelham Parkway, I can't think of any other bulb-only lit stations left, aside from the Rockaway Shuttle branch, Eastern Pkway on the J/Z (fourescents being installed as we speak), Broadway Junction (ditto) and the unused Aquaduct racetrack platform (has original working fixtures last time I sped through it at night).
BTW, can anyone tell me why none of the recently re-vamped stations along the Broadway Brooklyn el have completely working lights? It's been 2-3 years and still these stations only have maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of the new sodium lamps working at one time ...
Gee - I remember from the 1950s - 1960s when the TA was in the process of installing flourescent lights in the underground stations. Most of the IRT and BMT stations were done by the 1961 or 1962, but many of the IND stations didn't get flourescents until the late 60s (except for those latecomer stations like 179th St Jamaica and the stations east of Broadway-East New York in Brooklyn which had fluorescents when they opened).
I believe that the open cut stations on the Brighton line (Prospect Park to Newkirk Ave.) were among the first open-air stations to get fluorescents, around 1962.
-- Ed Sachs
Broadway East NY, and most local stations west of there had incandescent-only lit platforms as late as 1981. The Fort Hamilton Pkwy. and Church Ave. stations on the F line didn't get flourescents until late 1987!
Go here. Scroll down a little, its there. They're replacing the lighting in most stations that still use the old lighting.
Does anybody know why this station is so disgusting?
I go to Coney Island at least once a year. I always think that the next time I get there, some maintenance will be done.
Well, I was there yesterday for the Nathan's hot dog eating contest.
It looks the same as always:
Dark and Dank!
[Does anybody know why this station is so disgusting?
I go to Coney Island at least once a year. I always think that the next time I get there, some maintenance will be done.]
A huge renovation project should be starting soon.
Pete: I usually agree with you but I'm withholding any such agreement until I see it happen. Stillwell Avenue IS disgusting and it makes me sick to see it look that way when I go to Coney Island. Even in Las Vegas, they have a big hotel called New York New York, and the subway station is modeled after Stillwell Avenue. Can't the DOT or the TA get on the stick and really renovate that station. It makes all of us sad.
Fred--If you had been able to come on our tour to Coney Island, I handed out a copy of the TA's plans for Stillwell Avenue. I probably have a few copies left, if you want one (please, lets not flood my mailbox with requests).
For the past several weeks I've been on R trains out of Continental Ave. during the AM rush that show "Whitehall St" as the destination. The dispatcher announces that the R will make "All stops to whitehall street". When we get to Times Square they announce that 14th street will be the last stop and that the next stop will be 34th street, followed by 14th street. The train is then switched over to the express tracks before 34th street.
Why are they turning trains at 14th street instead of Whitehall? And why don't they still say "R to Whitehall" until they get to 42nd street? I haven't been on a train that actually turned at Whitehall in over a month.
There has been work being done on the tracks at Whitehall. The center track was out of service for awhile and then for a day the uptown track was out of service with trains arrving on the center track. I only assume the downtown track was OOS for a time as well but I only personally observed the above.
All to be addressed by the months G.O. on the weekend when Whitehall will be closed, no R in Manhattan and the N going 6th Avenue.
Isn't Canal St the alternate southern terminal for these added R trains in the AM rush? I've ridden quite a few of these ...
i was thinking that the mta might consider issuing a series of metrocards to commemorate the contribution that the railfan has made to mass transit... one card might show a typical railfan peering out the railfan window in a pin-striped straight jacket...
another card might show a railfan taking photos using a high intensity halogen flash of trains entering a subway station... perhaps another card might highlight some misguided railfans' attempts to operate trains or control towers... and a final card to paid tribute to our doug's ability to include a trip on the franklin shuttle as part of getting to and from any 2 points in the city...
...or how about a MetroCard featuring Bill Newkirk swapping cards at one of the recent shows....or Thurston taking his fifth coffee break at his bus company....or Mark W. tripping over some jungle-growth while giving a tour of the old LIRR Rockaway branch ROW....or Lou Levinson operationg a trolley up at Branford Electric Railway....or heypaul posing proudly with his R-9 cab...the possibiliites are endless.
Doug aka BMTman
07/06/2000
Doug,
You failed to state that these cards should be autographed thus boosting their collectable value !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I would think that the ultimate collectable Railfan MetroCard would be the one depicting Webmaster Dave Pirmann at his computer terminal deleting this thread!
;-)
Now wait Bill, you have to pay me for my autograph.
How about Stef repainting 6688 (R17) up at Shoreline?
"i was thinking"
That scares me just by itself :-|
Mr t
How about a photo of the late Steve Zabel on the Metro Card.
Today, 7/5/2000, is the official launch of www.oldnyc.com. Oldnyc.com is a web page that explores the abandoned and little used railroad lines in New York City. "Virtual Tours" are provided for the abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach line, parts of the New York Connecting Railroad line, and the old LIRR Bay Ridge (now being leased by the LIRR to the New York and Atlantic Railway) line.
Thomas Scannello
www.oldnyc.com
Fantastic!
I'll be looking for it!
www.forgotten-ny.com
VERY GOOD STUFF! Especially the detailed gallery of Rockaway branch LIRR photos. Especially the Woodhaven station photos! Exactly where is that tunnel which goes from the Rockaway to the Flatbush branch? Is it along one side of the ROW or in the center?
wayne
According to old diagrams, the "Woodhaven Connection" to Ozone Park had the tunnel positioned south of the Atlantic Branch and west of the Rockaway Beach Branch, with the curve occurring just before the Rockaway Beach substation. I don't know if that tunnel still exists. I think portions of the school bus company's parking lot reside on the land above the tunnel (if it is still there).
Tom
www.oldnyc.com
There was an article in the June 29th issue of Our Town, an East Side
newspaper, concerning light rail. It covered the New Jersey line,
the proposed 42 St. line, and the proposed Red Hook (Brooklyn) line.
There were some good facts and updates
Here are a few:
The New Jersey Line: Ridership is around 5,000 a day. The projected
ridership is 120,000 by 2010, when the line is
supposed to reach N.Bergen.
Average speed is 15 mph.
Cost was $30 million per mile.
42nd St. Line: The project is still alive. The route
is now supposed to go across 42nd St. to 12th Ave., down to 39th St. to connect with the
ferry, then east to the Javits Center and Penn Station.
There is a possibility of a spur up Broadway to
Lincoln Center. Opposition is mainly from
building owners (access worries), Con Edison
(utlity-line access) and traffic officials
(traffic congestion due to construction).
Red Hook Line: Supposed to be under construction in 6 months.
Initial line is to be 1/2 mile. Plans are for it
to go to the Brooklyn Bridge. There is also
a plan to connect the line to the old railway
tunnel under Atlantic Ave. and then on to the
Long Island Railroad Sta.
The Red Hook line is the pet project of Bob Diamond, the fellow who rediscovered the Atlantic Avenue tunnel and who posts here occasionally. Perhaps he'll see this post and update us with the current status.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bob Diamond is going to have a run down his ROW this Saturday -- if the information is correct.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, were planning to have some runs @ 1PM Saturday. The location is the southern foot of Van Brunt Street (499 Van Brunt).
Hmmm, just hours after the SubTalk thread about the M$ Winbloze
NT4.0 screens on the MVM (Metrocard Vending Machines), I saw
my first example of one (zone N333B in case anyone cares).
There it was, the nice blue startup screen, with the NT logo
customized for MTA New York City Transit. The usual mouse
cursor was present, but since there is no mouse and no keyboard
on these things (at least customer-accessible) the machine was
effectively useless with no way to reboot it.
Leads me to wonder, with tongue firmly in cheek, could there
be a new virus going around that crashes these boxen? It seems
to be a new phenom...I've never seen it before today and you know
that screen sticks out like a Perl hacker at a Multics convention.
Maybe someone inserted one of the new $10 bills and the machine
committed suicide over the ugliness of the design?
jeff... i love the title of your post...
i don't know much about the machines crashing, but i am curious if there has been any cases of the machines being vandalized?
07/06/2000
[i don't know much about the machines crashing, but i am curious if there has been any cases of the machines being vandalized?]
I've seen some MVM's with scratched screens.
Bill "Newkirk"
Which is part of the reason why the 'touch' part is seperate from the actual CRT.
-Hank
>>> could there be a new virus going around that crashes these boxen? <<<
Jeff;
Rather than a virus, I'd suggest it is standard Microsoft reliability.
Tom
Microsoft <==> Reliabiity = Oxymoron
How true it is!!
I tend to disagree in the case of NT 4.0. My employer uses it and I find it to be very stable. Now W98 might be another story.
Peace,
ANDEE
NT4 is very stable, but there are programs that will cause it to either crash or produce the BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.
[The usual mouse
cursor was present, but since there is no mouse and no keyboard
on these things (at least customer-accessible) the machine was
effectively useless with no way to reboot it.]
I'm surprised they don't use watchdog timers.
Arti
I've seen these machines opened up (with Revenue Agents watching, and in some locations the police were also standing guard).
Inside there is a keyboard, mouse and CPU and a standard monitor.
That is all I can say (they dont even allow us to get closer than 2-4 arm's lenghts away.
Yes- they do have audible and silent alarms! and yes, like turnstiles the computer in the booth (and Jay Street) lets us know when the machine is not working or the machine is opened.)
Interesting thin I have observed is tha Windows based computers tend to get more instable over a period of time. We'll see.
Arti
My windows based computer has seen almost constant operation since 1995 with no problems (I currently run, Win 98 Beta 3 and Win NT 4, and used to have Win 95, Win NT 3.1, and Win 3.1). 120 Mhz Processor, and both those OSes sharing a 1.2 GB hard drive with plenty of room to spare, thanx to compression. Of course, neither OS can see all of my drives at once, but that way if a virus invades there will always be one part that is untouched. If one OS acts up, I can use the other for a while.
Mine is at 6th iteration.
Arti
>>> My windows based computer has seen almost constant operation since 1995 with no problems .... If one OS acts up, I can use the other for a while <<<
Henry;
Your post seems to have a contradition in it. An OS "acting up" is a serious problem. Microsoft has gotten us to believe it is just normal. Great marketing on their part!
Tom
I define a serious problem as one that destroys information or makes the computer unusable. If one OS is not starting correctly, I can use the other to connect to the internet and find the solution (or fix it myself). However, my Win 98 internet connection is 1/4 the speed of my NT connection, though its the same modem and ISP. It takes 3 minutes to load the SubTalk message index from Win 98 even if it set to show messages in the past day.
TA installs CTRL -ALT -DEL on MVM's.
Today in answer to customers upset about MVM's breaking down the TA will spend 10 Billion to install three new buttons (non touch screen) on the famous MetroCard vending Machines.
[Today in answer to customers upset about MVM's breaking down the TA will spend 10 Billion to install three new buttons (non touch screen) on the famous MetroCard vending Machines. ]
I reccomend special circuitry to perform this function with only one button! The price: JUST $50M. I feel for MTA.
Arti
Just wondering who will be there. I will be in the rear cab for the duration. Stop by and say hi.
-Mark
07/06/2000
If the weather is good, I may not be riding but photographing it on the move!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll be there this Sunday, Mark.
--Mark
yesterday, i ran into doug at the transit museum... i was there selecting a coloring book for my summer project in recreational therapy, while doug was discussing with whomever would listen his recent discovery about the franklin ave shuttle... he discovered that the current franklin shuttle was a
just a small part of a much larger franklin ave connecting shuttle, designed by a rather eccentric planner for the old board of transportation...doug just recently got proof of these plans when he bought an old good humor ice cream napkin from arnold joseph, which had a sketch of the grand proposal... it was to connect the various franklin avenues in staten island, queens, and the bronx... although there is no franklin ave in manhattan, there were plans to change the name of franklin street to franklin ave, thus making it possible to have an all borough franklin ave connecting shuttle... doug surmises that the planner liked strawberry since there were several red stains on the napkin...
LOL!!!!!
Paul, you REALLY have too much time on your hands! ;-)
Does he also get off at the Broadway station on the N line to see a musical? Or is the Broadway station on the G line? I forget... :-)
I bid $1,000,000.00 on the napkin. You should get it to Southerbees or how ever you spell it.
Last night I was at Cortland St when 3 crew members from the JFK came down past the booth and got buzzed through the service door. Is the TA giving free rides to the Navy this week???
Per Official Bulletin:
Military personnel **in uniform and with military id** (emphasis mine) are to be allowed free entry into the system.
If they are not in uniform the bulletin says theu have to pay (or if they dont have id).
This goes for all branches of the armed forces.
is this always or just this week???
Just this week! (also- the Chief Station Officer has the right to decide that a certain event such as a Politican Convention has free ride privileges. If it is decided, an official bulletin is issued explaining the decision and giving us the instruction to allow free entry to that group.)
[Chief Station Officer has the right to decide that a certain event such as a Politican Convention has free ride privileges]
Why?! Shouldn't MTA be apolitical.
Arti
They're not supposed to be apolitical, just non-partisan.
One aspect of NYC's application for the 2012 Olympics is of note to transit fans.
According to the presentation I saw, the entire application is based on the notion that of the U.S. applicants competing (Chicago isn't) only New York City can move the guests around, and only because of the subway. All the venues would be at subway or (if outside the city) commuter rail stops. Fans would travel by subway, athletes (for security reasons) would travel separately be water, reserved trains, and express bus.
As presented, the plan would have all events scheduled to begin and end in the non-rush hours. Since the capacity of the transit system is virtually unlimited relative to demand off-peak, it would be no problem moving a million or so people around.
The weak points of the plan? Political approval (and settling lawsuits) for all the venues is nearly impossible in a NYC contexts. And, NYC has a shortage of hotel rooms which is not going away.
They could put up a big tent for everyone in the Meadowlands and bring them into the city via the 7 line extension.
After seeing Haypauls little thread aboot railfan metrocards I thought about the possibility of personalized metrocards. Now tell me if I am wrong, but a metrocard is just another piece of plastic with a mag strip. When you buy one all the relevent information is coded on the back. You should have the option of presenting ANY plastic card w/ a mag strip to be coded by the token booth agent.
why not you can buy personalized stamps in Canada you send in what ever picture you want and they print it on Stamps for you.
[You should have the option of presenting ANY plastic card w/ a mag strip to be coded by the token booth agent.]
Well the MTA/TA ain't going to let you do that. They have a crime unit that looks for folks doing bad things with their MCs all the time.
However you could pay the TA some money to have them put your face, etc. on a bunch of their cards. It doesn't cost all that much, per card. If the contract was for, lets say, 10,000 cards then you would probally have to pay a storage charge until you used them up in your life time (you would have them "encoded" one at a time as needed).
Mr t__:^)
Is 10K the minimum order?
BTW, what has the anticrime unit got to do with supplying your own piece of plastic -- so long as you pay to have the fare encoded on it? It seems to me that the real problem would be that most cards with mag stripes are the size of credit cards, which are too thick for the equipment. In as much as there is a virtually unlimited supply of empty or expired official metrocards for the crooks to play with (due in part to the defective little hoppers for used cards attached to the card readers in the stations), allowing non-standard cards (that fit the equipment) should not appreciably increase the fraud rate.
Which reminds me, is there any plan to correct the design defect and replace or repair those hoppers?
[Is 10K the minimum order?]
When I researched it, official request, the minimum was 10,000 with 50,000 being a much better per/card value.
[what has the anticrime unit got to do with supplying your own piece of plastic -- so long as you pay to have the fare encoded on it?]
The "encoding" is a two step operation. The first occurs in one of the TA back rooms, the second at the subway station. This makes it less likely that the Station Agent is a suspect. Similarily in this depot we have a KISS system ... every card is accounted for by s/n, so neither I nor any of my staff can steal a card because it would be missed right away (we sell pre-valued cards).
Mr t__:^)
I see. At a minimum, you'ld have to have a central location where the customer would have to bring his card for the first step encoding to be performed. I have to admit that this begins to sould like more bother than it's worth. Too bad.
there has been one change it is being phased in:
Once a card is put into the disposal bin it **permanently** loses any remaining value and can not be fixed in the booth. At stations where this has been done the signage on the bin reads "Deposited cards permanently lose their value"
Is this change being made to discourage those who pry open the bottoms of the bins?
Yes. Also- it takes time away from other customers when we check a card we know to be empty( we see the pryed open bin ) and they bring the card to us. Yes- we have to check the card. We can refuse to check a card that is obviously bent or extremely gunky (would jam in our card reader slot).
I see people in line fuming when someone has 5-10 cards and wants us to check all of them (I already saw them swiping the card and it has insufficient funds available.) I encourage people to throw away (or refil) their card instead of having 5-10 cards and trying to remember which has money (or time).
Once again- we do give customer service to all, even those we know to be scammers.
I hope that they make the new bins studier than the first set. It's a pain to see a pile of old cards all over the floor beneath a bottomless bin.
Back by popular demand, this is part 8 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Opinion Questions about the Subway.
On my many recent trips on the Philly transit system I have begun to notice the many distinctive smells of the several different lines. The MFL smells old and musty, the BSL smells like urine, PATCO smells like 60's plastic and the Surface Subway smells sort of sweet and musty.
Also many stations have distinctive smells. 8th St. has a small that makes me feel light headed (like warm cleaning solution), City Hall smells like urine and 30th St. smells dank.
So, what are your favorite subway smells and have you noticed that different lines have different smells.
[So, what are your favorite subway smells and have you noticed that different lines have different smells.]
PATH stations are well-known for their peculiar musty odor.
ESPECIALLY in a hot humid summer.....
ESPECIALLY Exchange Place and Pavonia Newport.
Washington DC Metro station entrances (mostly the escalators and around the farecard machines) have a funny metallic aroma to them.
Here in NYC, 21st St-Van Alst has a very musty smell due to the spring leaking through it; Chambers Street BMT smells of mould and Bowery smells like weewee. Chambers Street IRT (7 Ave line) smells like wet, putrid garbage + rat poop.
wayne
On the upper Broadway line [1/9] I always thought l68 st and l8l st had a distinctive smell, hard to describe but not unpleasant. I kind of liked it just for being different. Then there was Greenpoint on the G but I can live without that one.
Let's see on the D/Q north of just Prospect Park, if smells like crap. Whew. You can get a wiff by riding an R40 and when the gush of air from outside starts coming in, you can smell it. One more, it's not really a smell but it's a nice place to be on a hot summer day. If you go to Canal Street on the J/M/N/R/Z/6 and get onto the Bridge Platform, it'll give you a break from the heat. That station is always cool.
All I can remember is during the summer of '67 I worked as a messenger
(the summer before college) and I transferred at 14th ST from the BMT to the IRT. The concourse connecting the two had many food stands, and the combination of smells used to make me sick ---a sweet, sickly smell of baked goods that was overpowering.
Maybe that "aroma" on the D/Q near Prospect Park is the animals int he zoo?
Where's Smelly Kelly when you really need him?
Sometimes I can smell swamp odor as the #7 train I was on crosses the creek over Van Wyck during low tide.
Anybody knows how's the Bowery station in Manhattan is doing? I have to admit that 10+ years ago when I really had to go and couldn't find a public restroom, I went to the one station I know that I can get away with... Bowery! Since then I have gotten on & off at the station a couple of times but it's been awhile now.
I like the smell of steel and grease? (I guess) like on lex local on 23rd 28th street stations.
Arti
MARTA smells like Band-Aids
07/06/2000
A Road Car Inspector (RCI) friend of mine stated that Stillwell Terminal smells like french fries 365 days a year !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's wierd because I don't know of any place that sells french fries anywhere near that station . . . ;-)
He's mistaken the french fry smell. It's a smell all right, but it is liquid and you don't drink it. Sad to say, it's the urine station. It smells of rancid urine.
07/08/2000
[That's wierd because I don't know of any place that sells french fries anywhere near that station . . . ;-)
How about that food stand on the entrance concourse called "The Islander"? It seems closed now, most likely for a moveacross the street and the impendind rebuilding of Stillwell. I myself always smelled french fries.
Bill "Newkirk"
A friend of mine contended that Kings Highway of the Brighton line smelled like shrimps.
Long Island City (LIRR) smells like bread, Roosevelt Island has a strange, pleasant scent. Come to think of it, all the new stations have a semi-pleasant odor.
Back in the days, before the M1s came to Long Island,
and trains had windows that opened,
You could smell the bakery as the train came into Jamacia.
I stopped riding the LIRR in '83 when I moved to North Dakota,
but in all my years as a daily commuter,
You could smell nothing from the M1s.
You reminded me of coming into Long Island City, jsut leaving the tunnel heading for QB plaza, on an Astoria train. I used to love the smell from the Silvercup bread bakery. Anyone remember that bread? Do you still live in North Dakota? I'm in New Salem, ND. If you do plz send me an e-mail!
I remember Silvercup Bread. It tasted great and I lived across the street from it---the Queensbridge Housing Apartments. Lived there for ten years. Smelled the bread all the time. We used to go to the day old store and buy the bread that made great toast. When did they stop making that bread? Does anyone know?
Every time I've ridden M-1's on the LIRR, all you could smell was hot brake shoes....
[Back in the days, before the M1s came to Long Island,
and trains had windows that opened,
You could smell the bakery as the train came into Jamacia.
I stopped riding the LIRR in '83 when I moved to North Dakota,
but in all my years as a daily commuter,
You could smell nothing from the M1s.]
Even with the sealed windows on today's trains, you sometimes can still smell the bakery.
Dear All SubTalker:
I had a incident happen to me on BusTalk last night which prompted me to make this post.
Some outed me on BusTalk, I'm Bi-Sexual, and this person let the whole board know it. At the same token I didn't let it get to me and took it with a grain of salt.
This situation has opened my eyes that much more wider as to why people on these boards feel like they have to hurt people, dig dirt up on people, and cause embarrasment to certain individuals on the boards.
Salaam Allah, HeyPaul, Pigs of Royal Island and a few others have been slinging mud back and forth on this board for a while now, Heypaul has really cut back and I commend you for it. As for the others, PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE THIS ANY FURTHER OR SOMETHING MAY COME OUT THAT YOU MAY NOT WANT TO TELL ANYONE. It's the year 2000, new fresh start, I think it's just time for all of us to make a truce, bring out the white flag and hang all of the negativity up.
What you say?
Have a safe and blessed day!
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
Trevor, apparently there are some truly vindictive and sick people lurking, waiting to do their evil all over the internet. However it's a dual edged sword and as one former SubTalker found out about 2 years ago, you can be held accountable.
On a personal note, I can appreciate your sense of violation over your sexuality being opened to public scrutiny. As for myself, as long as in doesn't involve children or animals, what consenting adults do is no concern of mine. Live your life and enjoy it and don't worry about the shit-heads. I think most of the Sub-Talkers are bigger than that.
Dear Mr. Logan:
It is unfortunate that people have chosen this, or any forum, as a means to inflict pain upon those whose only "crime" is in being themselves. Now I am not the most liberal minded of people; I personally do not condone every type of lifestyle or conduct but that said, my biases, and my ignorances are my problems. As such I have no right to impose my viewpoints upon others or for that matter to use them as an excuse to inflict pain upon those with whom I disagree. It is not an easy lesson to learn and Lord knows I am still learning.
But I participate in this forum not to brag nor to boast. I seek not agreement with all that I've said, but merely dialogue; dialogue with people about a common interest whose impact has long affected the lives of people around the world. I wish I could adequately answer your question as to why "People Do Hurtful Things" but I cannot and I seriously doubt that anyone really can for if we were to ever really have such an answer then I doubt not that all wars and poverty would cease on the spot.
My only advice to you then is to NOT SIGN OFF! Continue to participate in these forums, express yourself fully, and without reservation. Your voice is an important component of this dialogue and for it to be silenced due to the ignorant utterings of a few misguided individuals is to do Sub-Talk a diservice and provide those poor, pitiful people with more satisfaction than they deserve. I am not gay by any stretch of the imagination but I am human and that is the only bond that counts. So to everyone who reads this, KEEP THE BILE AND THE BIGOTRY IN THE BOX! This forum is about sharing ideas, improving lives (if possible), and ultimately HAVING A GOOD TIME!
Peace!
Eric Dale Smith
E DOG
I wish I could answer that question. I'm proud that I've always seen people for who they are inside. I think overall our Bus/SubTalk family are decent folks with good intentions. However, like most other places problem (or problem people) will surface. At times many of us have had our differences sometimes things got out of control, but this is truly malicious in every sense of the word. It was a very insensitive thing to do and I'm sure it does hurt. I'm glad you chose to take the high road and not go down to this person's level.
Hang in there Trevor...
Wayne
I was about to begin writing this post advising you that you should have just ignored the nasty gentleman's post altogether, thereby not encouraging him or drawing attention to him and his blatant misuse of this forum, to put it mildly...until I found myself about halfway through the thread, reading the posts and cheering on your supporters...
I suggest readers of *this* post ignore the thread until our fearless leader Dave gets around to deleting the way-off-topic discussion -- don't make the same mistake I did, lest you feel a nasty sense of unintentional voyeurism...
Trevor, don't waste your time worrying about it. Your talents are obviously put to better use.
Since I've been off this site for over a week, I know I'm not the guilty party. I fancy myself as one of the "good guys", but about a month ago I was in verbal combat with three or four of my railfan colleagues. I'm over that. I'm glad if there has to be a bad guy or two, it;s the other guys and not me.
Truy after following the link I did'n realize why it was posted. The follow ups cleared the picture. You've posted this page on the Internet, so be prepeared for anyone to find it. At the same time if I were to post something I'm proud of and some find "whatever" I would not even bother reacting. You did it because you were proud! So what do you care.
Regards,
Arti
Dear Arti
I care because now where people's heads are at, I will make it aware to those that things can really get out of hand, I was using myself as a example in this post because I've seen some ugly stuff go down on SubTalk (i.e. Salaam Allah, so on and so on). It was to aware for those to calm it down. I've did some not to nice things in the past on BusTalk. And this is probably someones retaliation.
To Be Aware, Retaliation is not cute, and I wanted to really bring it to the forefront.
TLJ
.........could i ask please .....leave my name out of this discussion ????.......( thanks ) .....
07/06/2000
Trevor,
Unfortunatly this is a reflection of todays society that relies on the news media to help "expose" someone while inflicting embarassment as well as personal damage. While BusTalk is not the news media, someone felt it was necessary to place you in a negative light.
When election time rolls around, I cringe when those TV ad's for those running for politcal office come on. There is little if anything in those ad's that show what this person stands for or what they will do if elected. It's digging up dirt and slinging it with reckless abandon.Now with the hotly talked about New York senatorial elections coming up we'll see even more of the same.
Whether anyone agrees with me or not, I WILL vote for Rick Lazio for senate over Hillary Clinton despite what all those know it all liberal Democrats and brain dead celebrities think. Rick Lazio started off being Mr.Nice guy in his AD's, yet Clinton is doing what she knows best and that's to sling the mud in hopes to get elected. Pretty much the same thing happened to you, someone wished harm on you on you by "outing" you. Was that called for? NO! I guess when people do these things, they must feel some "rush" of power knowing they damaged someones career or life in general.
Trevor, just hold you head up and don't let this get you down. Your private life like ours should remain just that.....private!
Bill "Newkirk"
[Trevor, just hold you head up and don't let this get you down. Your private life like ours should remain just that.....private!}
I agree with the first line. However, it should be noted that Trevor went and created a website that basically "outs" himself. He knows there are hurtful people in this world with some a--holes that would use his personal data against him.
My word of advice: if you create a personal website, but want to keep your private life just that -- PRIVATE -- then don't go and post every detail to be seen by the ENTIRE WORLD.
Now, with that said and done, I do feel that Orion 666 was nasty and meanspirited in his use of your site's info as 'cannon-fodder' for a personal attack and that is just low-down and dirty no matter how you look at it.
To all: be careful on how/what you post to your site, you never know what jerks are lurking in cyberspace.
Doug aka BMTman
Amen!!
Peace,
Big D
Because people have SHORTCOMINGS and they do these things out of self-centered FEAR or out of EGOTISM or out of NEGATIVE FEELINGS about themselves. These things must be forgiven; since they are human frailties. I for one have not a care about other people's personal business; since it can never interfere with mine. This is what makes this country great - our personal FREEDOM. It is unfortunate that people abuse these freedoms by doing harmful things to others. In this case, it is best to put this episode behind you. Keep your chin up and don't let this get you down.
wayne
So what? I don't give a rats ass. To me, all but a few of you are merely 1's and 0's arranged in a coherent pattern. I don't care if you wear dresses, if you're an alcoholic, or you like to type with your toes. I only care that what I read here is coherent, and makes sense. And it must not be a load of lies, or "facts" for which you bear no proof. Which is why I love the net. No one knows who the hell you are unless you WANT them to know it.
-Hank
As a side response to a topic currently on the site: how about these: When High V's and Low V's ruled the IRT (with a few other types) OK most of the routings similar to todays but The Beloved Broadway-7th Ave Express from New Lots to Van Cortlandt? Running express up the West side and then the nice snappy ride uptown including some long stretches between stations? That was my favorite. Anyone old enough to remember that the lights never blinked out on 3rd rail gaps on the High V's? They had bus jumpers and the whole train was always with power.How about the 3rd Ave. el in Manhattan (sadly I only rode it on the last day). Gate cars on Myrtle until l958; when we had the nice BMT southern express service via Manny B and Broadway; and of course the R1-9 on most of the IND ? That's what made me a railfan-old days!
I remember the old Bdway-7th Ave Express to Van Cortlandt Park. My Grandmother used to live 2 blocks of Dyckman St. Sometimes I went there for the weekend. After school on Friday took the Brighton Exp(always 1st car on Triplex) to Times Square. If I was lucky enough got a Bdwy Thru Exp. express all the way to `157th St, stopping only at 72, 96 and then 157th. I forgot what the marker lights were, Yellow and Orange I think.
The thru express as I remember it and don't think it ran any other way, was to l37 as express then all stops. With the middle track being used to relay locals southbound there wasn't much opportunity to express thru l37-l57.I often wish they had though. Markers were green/yellow later red/yellow, or perhaps it was red/yellow first. Normal markers on regular service were red/red. I used to make that ride a pilgrimage some afternoons just to ride that thru exp.Glad I did because it was short lived. Broadway-7th Ave was great then, wasn't it.
Maybe it was 137th, I used to love looking out of the Railfan window as we went outside on the Manhatten Valley, passing locals in both directions at 125th Street.
Most of the first generation equipment was gone by the time I became immersed in the subway in the late 60s, but the BMT standards were still running on the Canarsie and the R-1/9s were still moaning and groaning along. And, of course, the R-10s still ruled on the A.
You're indeed lucky to have witnessed what you did. It was one of the final chapters in the early history of traction even though "my stuff "survived a few more years in a few other places. Erie-Lackawanna commuter cars for one. Even if you did like the R10 best the Ab's and R1-9 were a taste of what had been since about l902. But time moves on, hearing the Septa Almond Joys are retired reminds me of riding the original Market St. cars, the Almond Joys replaced them a year later (l960-6l) now they're gone, along with much of the other "new stuff" as I called it right into the 80's.Best wishes.
I rode the #4 train from Grand Central to Bowling Green today and I was on Car #1380 which was part of the consist of this particular #4 train. I noticed that the door chimes were rather weak soundong. I wonder what causes them to become weak?
BMTJeff
Not enough fiber in their diet. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
On the R-68s/68A's I have noticed a small box mounted on the outside wall of the b cab, it is approx. 12"by 6" is this some kind of sensor for the climate control?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think that's what it is.
Sort of! It's called the 'Lay-Up' Thermostat. it only functions when the heat is switched off and the train is layed up. It keeps a minimal amount of heat on - just about enough to keep things from freezing. When the HVAC is activated, the Lay-Up thermostat is out of the picture.
Thanks!
Check out this little gem concerning Russian trains, courtesy of today's edition of Slate:
Between checking tickets, handing out sheets and taking orders for tea, train conductors must find time for a particularly thankless task: keeping a vigilant eye on the toilet and its frequent visitors. "Diarrhea sufferers will be forced to get off trains," the Moscow Railways said in a press release distributed last week.
A spokeswoman for Moscow Railways explained:
When passengers travel in the summer they take
fruit, vegetables and chicken in plastic bags with
them or buy pies with cat meat at train stops, and
then there is a chance they will either get food
poisoning or an infectious disease.
Yum, cat meat.
YUM!! - sounds like an improvement over the cafeteria here at work!!
Hey, years ago I came across some splattered diarhea in an LIRR car bathroom on a weekend.
Once upon a time....
before the invention of the M1 cars
they used to have toilets that dumped on the tracks.
There was a sign in each toilet not to use it in the tunnels or in stations.
To make a short story long, the lady went in before the train entered the tunnel, she had to go real bad, and she had diarhea just as the train entered the tunnel at speed.
Ooops.
Oh yeah!!! I heard that story from an LIRR engineer, who was my next-door neighboor -- he was running the train on which the splattered lady rode. We all know how fast they go down the ramps into the tunnels in LI City -- and when the train hits the tunnel, all the air comes UP the ol' poop chute in the restroom. Charlie said that the woman screamed so loud, he thought he hit someone on the tracks and dumped the air. Once they found out what was what, they proceeded and they had the first aid station nurse at Penn Station assist the lady in getting her clothes cleaned, etc.
Another acquaintance was an electrician or the LIRR. He said he and the rest of the crew were under a high level platform wiring up some station lighting. A train was approaching, so they all stayed under the platform -- and when the train went by, a huge turd when rolling past them. He said he never saw his crew get out from under a platform so fast!!
Now that I've read all this, I think I'll have breakfast.
EWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!
I was on a Metroliner back in Jan.1995 and upon entering the lavatory found a "pie" in the loo, far too large to be flushed.
wayne
You're supposed to bring a spatula to break up the big stuff.
Doesn't surprise me. I caught Giardia when I visited the old USSR. It was so common there that when I told the nurse back in NY where I'd been, she said right away "bet you have Giardia."
The former SU is sort of a nuclear-tipped third world country.
I hear alot about this weekends G.O.s. What is supposed to happen to the N,and R?
The MTA website has infos on this.
Now on eBay: Item #376005179: No reserve, minimum bid applies. Negative-original (not a copy, nor a scan, but printed from the actual camera negative), an 8x10 inch copyright-registered photograph of a classic Brooklyn, New York scene. This extremely sharp and clear photo, taken November 4, 1947, in the Bay Ridge section at the intersection of 5th and Bay Ridge Avenues (photo is looking north and was taken from the southwest corner), shows the once ubiquitous Peter Witt style trolley #8282, headed for Fort Hamilton, operating on the Fifth Avenue line stopped to discharge and receive passengers, and Loew's Alpin Theatre, which offered two feature motion pictures: Bob Hope and Jane Russell in The Paleface, and Ray Milland in Sealed Verdict. The photograph was taken by Robert Wasche, noted trolley and transportation photographer, who, beginnning in 1946, walked and photographed, generally block-by-block, each of Brooklyn’s trolley, bus and elevated lines, photographing a clean and dependable means of transportation never to be forgotten. The photograph is hand-printed and developed on Agfa archival glossy stock, and will last a lifetime under proper storage conditions. The labels and cross-hatch lines shown on the eBay photograph do not, of course, appear on the actual photograph. Here is an opportunity to possess an original photograph of one of Brooklyn’s most classic and historic scenes Bay Ridge scenes. Please also note that we have in stock thousands of similar classic scenes from all over the Borough of Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, The Bronx and Staten Island. •For further information or additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you wouldn’t want to miss an item you were looking for. Over 25,000 items in all categories are to be listed in the future.
PUH-LEEEZE stop using this board for personal gain! Mr. Pirmann and several SubTalkers have made this request before.
David
Actually, in fact, I never said any such thing. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Joe asked me privately if he could occasionally post such items.
I don't mind if people hawk some wares, so to speak, via SubTalk. We've got a couple people selling railfan videos, track map books, etc. I even host web pages detailing these items, so its natural that occasionally they are mentioned on SubTalk.
The guidelines are simple:
Keep the items are relevant to the general topics of this site; keep the posts infrequent (I don't think Joe posts more than once or twice a month).
I certainly don't mind being informed about what's available. Of course, you may not agree with the seller's pricing or whatever but that's your right not to buy. I'm sure some people are interested in these things. (As for me personally, I will buy items once in a while but I don't care much for E-bay auctions- but it's up to the seller how s/he wants to handle the business aspect.)
Also, if it really upsets you remember there is the option of the Killfile.
-Dave
He should at least be paying you for the advertising.
Sorry about that...thought you (David P.) had said it a few months ago.
David
Joe, this is NOT a commercial website. Try to refrain from giving your ebay items these long-winded plugs.
If you have to do this, keep the details down to a minimum, why don't you.
Question for the more experience train buff's....
How much is it per mile, for track to be laid electric 3rd and centenary with concrete ties? Straight tracks and curves..
Frank D
Hi Folks, Just a reminder that the 7 line WILL begin 10 car service tommorrow night around midnight. So get your cameras out and get your pics taken of the 10 car version of the 7 line. This is SUPPOSEDLY the last summer of the redbirds (10 & 11 car redbirds) for this line. Regards, Tom
07/06/2000
[This is SUPPOSEDLY the last summer of the redbirds (10 & 11 car redbirds) for this line. Regards, Tom]
SIGH! And thus ends an era in subway history when the sound of roaring axiflow fans cease. Looks like we'll have to go up to Branford and hope #6688 is running and the axiflow's are drowning out everyone's conversation !!
Bill "Newkirk"
HA! Ain't that the truth. 6688's axiflow fans are not operating temporarily while rehab continues. Unfortunately, one of the axiflow units is in need of repair and will be taken care of, when I (and others) get an opportunity.
-Stef
>>6688's axiflow fans are not operating temporarily while rehab continues.
That is why there is a large piece of masking tape over the switch!! >G< You should pull the fuse for it so no accident happens. I tried working on the fans last trip for an hour. Gave up because of the heat (unable to get doors open, couldn't find the jumper or Ted to tell me where it was). If I get time tommorrow I'll look into it and clear the hanging wires.
>That is why there is a large piece of masking tape over the switch!!
Are you trying to be a ball buster? I am fully aware of the tape over the switch, Thank You..... Furthermore, who's gonna flip the switch?
I'll be up on the weekend, to get things taken care of. The 3rd Axiflow Fan that was trouble in removing needs to be worked on because the blade touches the housing (as I recall)..... I will consult Ted about it.
By the way, the doors open without the 600. They operate on the battery, try flipping that switch and door control, then try to open.
07/06/2000
BTW - If this is the last summer of the R-33 singles, could that up coming R-33S fantrip with the observation car be construed as a "farewell" trip?
Bill "Newkirk"
If that is so, can we have some photos of ten-car seven-line trains posted on nycsubway.org in due course, please?
Maybe I'm missing a page or two..
Why all this fuss about a 10-car 7 train?
The 2 line is 10-car also.. why don't we
throw a ticker tape parade for THEM?!?
It's for the R-33 singles, the last un-air conditioned cars (deliberately un-ACed, not like the R-32 GEs) left running on the New York City subway. Their departure will be (for better or worse) the end of a 96-year era on the system, though I'd been willing to be the reported siwtchover of the R-62s won't happen fast enough so that the R-33s and their axelflow fans won't have a few more runs to make this fall....
....as much as this mat drive some people on this board nuts :-)
Maybe I'm missing a page or two..
Why all this fuss about a 10-car 7 train?
The 2 line is 10-car also.. why don't we
throw a ticker tape parade for THEM?!?
Before the R-33WF go away it would be interesting to see a solid train of them operating (after the summer of course). I wouldn't be suprised if it happended.
Wayne
It almost happened a few years ago, but an RCI in Corona Yard notified RTO who said "NO WAY"!
I remember observing four R33WF cars in a consist one time. They were cars three to six in the consist. This happened around 1993 when the R36 cars were getting cosmetic jobs on them.
Since my daughter's boyfriend got on my little girl's case, I now can use her computer anytime I want. Since school ended I have not been on the line much because of that problem. I need to know from some soda fountain and egg cream fanatic where near the 86th Street Station is that old time candy store I've heard so much about, and what subway line crosses it. I will be in New York in five weeks and don't want to pass that place up. Any other such candy stores that anyone knows about would be appreciated by me. I'm hoping to get in touch with some of my railfan buddies as well. Good God, I felt empty not being on this line but once in the last ten days.
I was wondering if the R-142's are wheel chair acessible,if they are will they have special cars for the handicapped?Will the train operator and the conductor be involved in this?Thank You
Each of the cars will have some space for wheelchairs, probably similar to the PATH PA-4's where one end of the car has a seat-less area with extra grab irons.
However, there is still the small problem of getting to the platforms. The new cars, motormen, and conductors certainly have nothing to do with that.
Actually, only the cars at the ENDS of each unit will be accessible. Each unit will normally be five cars, so in a ten-car train, cars 1, 5, 6, and 10 will be accessible.
David
In over 20 years of riding the subway on a regular basis, I have never seen a wheelchair. Probably never will unless more of the stations are retrofitted.
I've seen one person at Cortland St heading to Brooklyn in a motorized chair a few times
Since Metra here in Chicago has made all of their trains accessible by putting one lift-equipped car in a fixed position on each train, you do occassionally see someone in a wheelchair using the lift. Just as often, however, I've seen people on crutches taking advantage of the lifts.
-- Ed Sachs
I once saw a beggar in a wheelchair, at Union Square, IIRC. After a while I guess he got tired of hanging around there, so he stood up, folded up the wheelchair, and walked upstairs.
Yes, some of the cars themselves are totaly wheelchair accessable...they are the ones that are marked with a red stripe on the exterior, and at least a couple of those cars are in each set. -Nick
"gone is the pointless arrow logo of the seventies" -PR
Amtrak's WebsiteAmtrak's Website (New Window)
"gone is the pointless arrow logo of the seventies" -PR
Amtrak's Website
Amtrak's Website (New Window)
It looks like an airline logo. They should have used more color.
Just thought of something that goes along the lines of an earlier post, re: Penn Station Departure Board:
So the logo has changed, do you think they
a)Thought about the possibility of a new logo, and can change it with ease, or
b) Will it ever be changed? This would also apply to the Solari "Flippy" signs?
Also, sorry for the double post. Not sure what happened there...
trhis really sucks, i like the old logo better. but at least for the next 30 years we're going to see mixed trains, some with the new logos some with the old....
I'm definitely not feeling the new logo!
Big D
I'm going to miss being able to use the joke that the new South African flag looks like the Amtrak logo.
PS: I wonder if there was any pressure by South Africa on this issue.
ANOTHER horrible logo, which you are going to have to squint to see on rolling stock...almost as bad as the MTA logo.
I actually *like* the new logo, both on an intellectual and aesthetic level. It evokes 2 *rails* appearing to *go somewhere*, which the old logo did not (or at least not as well). The new font is also an improvement -- it appears more strong and solid, and it evokes a sort of computer-tech feel, more of the 21st century. The old font looked like something out of a first grade school reading primer.
It's good that the company wants to give the impression that they are moving onward and upward. I'm glad they finally made the jump, graphically speaking, out of the 70's. (The old logo looks like they took the Penn Central logo, straightened it out, and bent the back ends outward.) Also, think back even further. For example, the PRR's keystone symbol. There was nothing grand size-wise about it, yet it did its job in a subtle fashion, residing on locomotives and rolling stock. I also have no problems with the Acela brand name and logo either. Amtrak is a unique animal, in that it constantly fights an uphill battle for survival in a country where the perception is that public transportation (except for that via the air) is for losers. I applaud Amtrak for making efforts to improve its image, and I think this step succeeds.
i was rummaging through some photos at a flea market when i came across this rare 1940's picture of sea beach fred riding the brighton express with a big smile on his face... he is carrying a fishing rod and has a bucket full of sea bass from a day's outing at sheepshead bay... this 8x10 original black and white picture is being offered to subtalkers before being put on ebay... it goes to the first person who sends me $900 in unmarked bills...
Should that be $900 in umarked Confederate bills?
(Not good in any MVM machine.)
sorry dan... this northerner accepts only union greenbacks...
heypaul, that sounds like such a rare commodity that I'll pay ya $1,000 for it!!!
Sea Beach Fred caught in the act!
LOL!!!!
Doug aka BMTman
Is Fred wearing a Dodger cap?:-)
Steve: That's all I wore as kid. To play, to school, to the ballfield, to religious instruction where the nuns told me to get that hat off of my head.
I'll bet you got to Ebbets field with the Brighton Express.
How else could have gotten there from Long Island City? What I liked about going to Ebbets Field when I was a kid was that we would be riding the subway and when we got to Prospect Park Station out of the tunnel we would come into God's bright sunshine. There was then a lot of plants and vines overhanging the station----a lot of greenery. It quickened the pulse and today it is one of my fondest memories of childhood. That and the Dodgers pounding on the Giants, Braves and Cardinals.
07/10/2000
[ What I liked about going to Ebbets Field when I was a kid was that we would be riding the subway and when we got to Prospect Park Station out of the tunnel we would come into God's bright sunshine. There was then a lot of plants and vines overhanging the station----a lot of greenery. It quickened the pulse and today it is one of my fondest memories of childhood]
YOU SEE !....FRED REALLY LOVES THE BRIGHTON LINE !!
Bill "Newkirk"
He'd make an excuse, though, that Prospect Park is in an open cut.
He only picks the Sea Beach because nobody else likes it, and it cuts thru Italian Neighborhoods mostly
I suppose you're right, but the Brighton serves all those 2-fare zone neighborhoods, such as Marine Park, Mill Basin, Flatlands, that are almost entirely Italian and Jewish.
Q Brightliner, just thought I'd post this more current breakdown of the neighborhoods you mentioned:
Marine Park = predominently Irish w/some Italian
Mill Basin (if you mean Old Mill Basin) = predominently Italian w/some Jewish, Blacks (mostly from the Carribean) and Irish
Flatlands = predominently Black (from the Carribean) w/some Jewish and Italian
If he means Mill Island, then the asessment is correct.
For those not familiar with this particular area of Brooklyn: "Thee" Mill Basin differs from "Old" Mill Basin in that it is the neighborhood that "horse-shoes" around the Kings Plaza & Marina area (look on a map). It has some VERY exclusive real estate in there and is definitely Italian (with a small Jewish presence). Most of the homes there have moorings in the "backyards" for boats. In alot of ways the area is similar to the Hewlett Harbor area of Long Island.
Old Mill Basin is the area sandwiched between Flatlands and Georgetown neighborhoods and was highlighted in the press recently when NYCT tried to lie about diesel fuel not being in the soil of the area around the Flatbush Depot.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: When I referred to Mill Basin I meant the horseshoe. I included the "Old Mill Basin" is what I referred to as Flatlands. Thanks for the update. It's been 22 years but I did visit the Mill Basin. It's a shame that the some of the old houses have been razed and gaudy two and three story giants put in their place. Like showing off who is biggest.
When did you see the neighborhood before? I'm very interested in it's history, however I have found no comprehensive resources.
Pigs: I lived there from the age of 10 (1961) until I left for college and graduate studies, but still visited my parents regularly through 1978 and after my expatriation, sparingly through 1985. My last visit was two months ago. I'm not sure that this is the appropriate place to tell everything I now about "the basin" but let me have specific questions and I'll try to answer.
--Harry
One thing that really intrigues me is the little bay in front of the Bergen Beach Yacht Club between 56th Drive and Indiana Place. I remember seeing a map which showed the bay filled in, with Whitman, Arkansas and National Drives through-routed and then new streets between National and Arkansas. I remember a California Place and Arizona Place. I believe the landfill never occured as they left it off for two long and developers wanted more waterfront property at the cost of more property period. In fact, National Drive is numbered as if the numbers continue through the gap (the others use sequential on the northeast side and 2700 series on the southwest).
Do you know anything about that?
What's that huge abandoned warehouse building with the huge lot facing it on Mill Avenue between U and Strickland.
Was Mayfair Drive really called McMullen Drive? When was the change. When did Island Avenue become Veterans Avenue (not really Mill Basin, but close enough).
What was it like before Kings Plaza? How wide was Flatbush then?
Yes Mayfair was McMullen until about 1961 when we first moved there. Island Avenue became Veterans Avenue shortly thereafter, I think around 1962-3. The warehouse that I think you are referring to was a steel mill. Mill Av. in 1961 was a dirt road fill of big potholes (even by New York standards). Lindower Park was an open sandlot where my friends and I would play touch football and softball almost every afternoon. It was made a park around 1970-1. I also vaguely remember the California Place and Arizona Place. There also used to be oil storage tanks in the area of Strickland that now faces Kings Plaza. There was a fire there around 1963 during which we had to stand by for evacuation of the whole neighborhood.
The only thing I can say with with some certainty is that there were plans in the early part of the 20th Century to turn what is today Floyd Bennett Field/Gateway National Recreation area of Jamacia Bay into a deep-water port with rail connections a la Port Elizabeth. This of course never came to pass, but I have seen a proposed map of the freight trackage. It was planned as a spur from the Bay Ridge line that would've branched off by Utica and Glenwood Road, and ran down Bergen Ave. (then Paerdegat Ave. South) to Ave. U then running along Avenue U to the corner of Flatbush (today's Kings Plaza Shopping Center) and going down Flatbush to the Floyd Bennett area. There the single track branched off into many spurs running up to several piers facing the bay-side of the land.
If that proposal had gone through, the entire history of the transmodal and freight industry in the Northeast would have been re-written!
One of these days I'll have to dig that thing out and get it scanned.
Doug aka BMTman
...and ran down Bergen Ave. (then Paerdegat Ave. South)
THANK YOU! I've always wondered what that little stubby road was once part of. Did it ever go through the Glenwood Houses as I suspect? Was Bergen Avenue ever through routed between Avenue K and Ralph Avenue and then demapped because there was no reason to pave it back then? Would there be remains if I go a searchin'?
Yes, Paerdegat Ave. South did continue north till it intersected with Farragut & Albany Ave. (you can see a remnant of this angling street next to the Wonder Bread outlet on that block).
Doug aka BMTman
It must have curved very sharply as it would only get as far as 56th at Farragut Road if it didn't change course.
I remember back in the 50s, Flatbush Ave was either 2 or 3 lanes from Ave U to the Marine Park Bridge, there were some turnouts or sideings, some resturaunts, bait shops, a small marina. Of Course Floyd Bennett Field was still in use. Where Kings Plaza is was the dump. or as they say these days. Land Fill. I don t remember what was on the West Side and South Side of Ave U was. The B 41 Trolley and then Bus and the B 2, terminated in a loop North of Ave U. The Q 35 still ran to B116th, There was a Bus that ran down Flatbush Ave named I think B42 Marine Pkw, from Ave U to the Bridge. I think it ran summers only. The B46 ran only to Ave N. Remember this was 45-50 years ago and I was a kid then.
"Most of the homes there have moorings in the "backyards" for boats."
That answers only for East 66th Street starting at Ohio Walk, then down Whitman Drive, Bassett Avenue, Arkansas Drive, National Drive, Indiana Place, Whitman Drive, East 66th Street (again), 56th Drive and then over to National Drive again. That doesn't explain the other side of each of these streets, the inland sections of them (which all of them except for National Drive posses), and all of the remaining streets. How do you define "most?"
I certainly don't have moorings in my backyards for boats, neither do any of my neighbors.
The homes on the "outer rim" of the horse shoe, that's what I meant.
Since you live near there I assume you'd be an expert on Mill Basin (as you are with everything else).
Doug aka BMTman
as you are with everything else
Your insulting, sarcastic comments solve nothing.
You were talking about Mill Basin being in the horseshoe.
Either you said that only the outer rim is Mill Basin, or you said that all of it was, but that the outer rim consisted of the majority.
Either way, you're wrong.
The Area south of Avenue U in the 60's is Mill Basin as opposed to "Old Mill Basin" which is more north, as far as I recall.
Now, as for my statement the about majority of the homes having berths in the rear -- I believe a good many of them can be seen from Flatbush Avenue South (as you head toward Nick's Lobster House and Toys 'R Us) with just such setups. Please correct me if I am wrong here, as you claim I am in my last post.
I do apologize for my faceious statement "as you are with everything else". I was only making a snide reference to your reknown ability at SubTalk for correcting everyone on even the most minute details in a discussion.
Doug aka BMTman
OK guys, may I step in as peacemaker? I went through this a couple of times and it ruins everything. We're all here to have fun and learn from each other. I venture to say that I have improved my knowledge of the NYC Subway 100% since I got online with you guys.
I don't think there was a war to begin with.
I Remeber when Mill Basin was nothing, and Kings Plaza was a land refill Garbarge Dump/ Pigs this was in the late 40s and 50s.
The garbage dump was on White Island, behind what is now the Marine Park Golf Course.
Where is the Marine Park Golf Course?
On the west side of Flatbush south of Avenue V.
There are many of those homes, however it is not MOST.
I do apologize for my faceious statement "as you are with everything else". I was only making a snide reference to your reknown ability at SubTalk for correcting everyone on even the most minute details in a discussion.
Yes, I know about that.
I have to try to cut down.
Pigs don t try, DO IT. Trying too much will only give you Hemoriods
Forty Five years ago the southern terminus of the B-13 bus was "Old Mill" or "Mill Basin" or something like that, I was not a bus fan, so I never rode to the end of the line.
Would this be the same neighborhood that you are talking about?
I never heard of the B-13. Maybe you mean the B-3. It terminated in the '60s and '70s (still today?) in Bergen Beach, near Av. U and East 74th St. AFAIK, Bergen Beach is still Brighton Line country.
I did mean the B-13!
I received an Email telling me that the area is known today as Spring Creek, so I guess that I must be talking about a different part of Brooklyn.
Spring Creek would be over toward Canarsie. That is no longer Brighton line territory.
I have only one question. Is Sheepshead Bay still Jewish, and is Canarsie still Italian? I haven't been to either place since 1954.
hey fred... i don't think sheepshead bay was predominantly jewish even in the 50's... maybe the apartment houses on ocean ave had a large number of jewish people, but the private homes on the side streets were mostly italian families... as for now, there is a much wider mix of people... there is a large number of russian families living in the area... for example, my apartment building which was built as a coop back in 1954 and was almost 100% jewish then, now has many russian families... many of the older apartment buildings on ocean avenue have large numbers of russian families... on the side streets, there is a large number of chinese and korean families... some people have called the brighton express the "orient express"... there is a large city housing project down around nostrand avenue that has gone from predominantly white in the 50's to mostly african american now... sheepshead bay is still considered a special area due to its fishing fleet on emmons avenue and presence of lundys restaurant, its generally well maintained apartment and private houses, and generally peaceful relations between a wide mix of people...
Heypaul: Thanks! Now if you can tell me how to get to Lundy's I'll be in your service. A love seafood and heard they just reopened.
lundys... i think you're going to be in coney island... if you're in a car, you can pick up neptune avenue and take that all the way east to lundys... if you're using the bus, pick up the b-36 that stops right near nathans and take that heading to ave u... you'll get off the bus right where it turns at sheepshead bay road off of emmons ave, which is the continuation of neptune ave...
if you go by subway, take the d to sheepshead bay road and walk to emmons and ocean... if you want to walk, it's about 2 or 3 miles from nathans... walk all the way down the boardwalk to brighton beach and then pick up coney island ave. take that to neptune, and head east to ocean ave...
Yep, you will have to take the Brighton, with a day pass, you might as well as Paul Said, take the B36 infront of Nathans.
Fred E Mail me by Sunday, I lost your e mail again.
Good bus directions, bad car directions.
Most trips there should use the Belt Parkway.
FROM POINTS WEST:
Use Exit 8: Coney Island Avenue which leads onto Guider Avenue. Turn right onto East 12th Street, then left onto Neptune.
FROM POINTS EAST:
Use Exit 9: Knapp Street. Turn left onto Knapp Street, then right onto Emmons Avenue.
FROM FLATBUSH AND VICINITY:
Use Ocean Avenue southbound.
Fred will not be driving
I wouldn't have bothered, except that heypaul put in driving directions that are not all accurate.
He could be taking a cab.
Fred will take a bus or subway. He is not inclined to take a cab when there is a subway within a mile
Hey Fred, I currently reside in Canarise, so I can tell you quite a bit about recent things there.
In the past 10-15 years large numbers of black families have moved into Canarise. All of those racial problems seemed to have ended about 15 or 20 years or so ago. So much so, that the area is now predominantly black, with the next largest group being Jewish and the smallest is Italian (most of them moved out to LI or Staten Isle -- or otherwised retired to Arizona/Florida).
It's interesting to note that even though the neighborhood's complexion has changed, the "small-town" feel of Canarsie is still there. Neighbors greet each other and kids play on the stoops and in the streets.
Doug aka BMTman
And all the groups of people get along. That's nice to know. I have to visit Sheepshead Bay and Canarsie when I get to New York next month. Thanks for the info.
It still could be Brighton Line Country since the B 6 and the Kings Hwy Bus (82 or 83 ) runs there.
Not quite.
The B82 turns down Pennsylvania Avenue (who the hell was Granville Payne?) and ends at Seaview Avenue. The area between there and Fountain Avenue is barren.
The B6 comes closest at Cozine Avenue and Ashford Street, the same barreness applies.
Earlier you asked about Flatbush Av before Kings Plaza. Let me tell you about Pennsylvania Av before Starett City. Although I was just a kid I remember my parents taking us to relatives in Bklyn (from L.I.) and getting off at Pennsylvania if the Belt was bumper to bumper and taking Flatlands to Flatbush. Pennsylvania between the Belt and Flatlands was probably the bumpiest street in the world seasoned with alot of potholes. If I remember correctly it was only 2 lanes, undivided of course, with nothing but empty garbage strewn lots. The only business at all on that stretch was a small Carvell on the W/S of the street. We always stopped for ice cream there. It was nothing like it is today. On the south side of Flatlands just W/O Pennsylvania there was a bowling alley there. I don't think there was an entrance to the garbage dump at the end of Penn. by the Belt in those days. (I might be wrong, I was a little kid, no ageism intended) I think if you went under the underpass of the Belt you had to get on the E/B side. In other words Pennsylvania became the entrance. As far as your original question about Flatbush before Kings Plaza, I really can't remember although I used it many times.
East 66th is my favorite street for exactly the reason you mentioned, it has a mooring side and an inland side, and a concentration of beautiful, well-kept homes.
East 66th has a mooring side only between Ohio Walk and Whitman Drive and between Dakota Place and 56th Drive. Most of the latter is occupied by the Bergen Beach Yacht Club and the last couple of houses before 56th are actually facing the side of the lowest numbered waterfront house on 56th.
Now the KING of waterfront is National Drive, with one waterfront side everywhere. However it is also the king of the huge house that you denounced in another post. I like them however, each of them are unique and they qualify for a walking tour. The fact that there are unique buildings makes it a candidate for historic district status when they acquire the patina of age.
Thats now, we were talking 60 years ago
No, we were not.
Those are two good reasons. I agree. But I think there are a lot of closet Sea Beach fans just waiting to come out.
But don't you dare tell that to Bob. He would never let me live it down. Next to the Sea Beach, the Brighton was a close second.
I already knew that. My 2nd favorite line was the West End because of the el, 3rd the 7 to Flushing
Fred, I am just too young, and barely missed watching the Dodgers play in Brooklyn, but I can well imagine your enthusiasm. I also barely missed the Triplexes, and thus I am not a #1 D-Type but a Q Brightliner (R32). Like you, and regardless of the hundreds of times I've ridden, coming into the light at Prospect Park was always a great feeling.
I just barely missed the Triplexes as well before they left the scene for good. We were in the city during their final week of service in 1965, and even we rode on the BMT for two days, I didn't see them. We left for home on their last day of operation.
There you go Q. I knew it. I'll bet many get that feeling when they enter Prospect Park Station. The bummer comes when I get off and head toward non=existent Ebbets Field and see those damn ugly apartments and ask kids if they know what used to be here and they haven't a clue. Even though we have the Dodgers here now, and they followed me out here four years after I left, I have no feeling for them whatsoever. Maybe some day, but I doubt it. Prospect Park Station in the late 40's and 50's was even a bigger thrill than Coney Island.
And The Yankees Beating up on the Dodgers in 41,47,49,52,53,56. 6 out of 7 wasn t bad, and Robinson was out at home, Yogi still claims today
Duke Snider remembers that when he played with the Mets in 1963, Casey Stengel would always talk about his Yankees would beat the Dodgers in the World Series. When Duke would bring up 1955, Casey would say, "We'll talk about that later."
Billy Martin always said Yankee Stadium, with its Death Valley in left center, beat the Dodgers more than anything else. As he put it, "They'd come in with all those righthanded power hitters, and they'd hit the ball nine miles for outs." He also felt Joe DiMaggio would have hit 80 home runs a year if he had played anywhere else; Joe hit into a lot of 430-foot outs.
If Fred would want to see the Dodgers playing in New York now, it is fitting that he would have to take the Brighton local to get there. Before they and he left for L.A. he took the express.
When I did go so see the Dodgers play in New York, I took the #7 train to Shea Stadium and watched the Mets beat them on a Friday evening.
Do you go when the Mets are O Malley Stadium at Chazev Ravine?
Oh yes!! I went to two games, and the one of them I had those dugout seats where I got served and wined and dined. The tickets were given to me by a friend and it was a hell of an evening. My wife, daughter, her boyfriend Sam, and I had a blast. The biggest blast came from Mr. Pratt who hit a grandslam homer to win it for the Mets. You know Tim Robbins, the actor? He was there. I didn't recognize him but he was rooting as hard for the Mets as I was.
Oops....I should have been more specific. The Yankees and Dodgers can now meet, theoretically, in inter-league play, so the Dodgers might come to Yankee Stadium and if they did, well the D Brighton local goes up there. But hey, Fred, I'm with you, when the Mets and Yankees play I root for the Mets. But I am an Orioles fan, always have been. I used to like taking the D Brighton Express in the late 60s and early 70s all the way to Yankee Stadium to see the Orioles beat the Yankees, which they did with consistency in those days. Seems that New Yorkers still haven't forgotten.
Hey, remember 1969? I do. Who would have thought the Mets would take the World Series from the Orioles, Frank and Brooks Robinson et al? Of course, Agee's two circus catches in Game 3 and Swoboda's diving grab in Game 4 didn't hurt.
I certainly didn't think the Mets could win the series but they did and deservedly so. Anyway, the Orioles won it all the following year. 1969 was very special: first man on the moon, Woodstock, debut of the R42s, and of course my graduating and getting out of that jail otherwise known as BTHS.
Let's hope it happens again and soon. Remember the years 1965-1975, and 1982-1985, it was heaven for baseball. You know what I mean.
What the hell does Yogi know. He has an arduous time even speaking credible English. I notice you never mention 1963 when your Yankees got their asses kicked four straight by the Dodgers. I pretended they were still Brooklyn and it was probably the only time I rooted for the LA version. But it was sweet to see the lordly Yanks get the hell knocked out of them.
I was also in LA at the time, Now the crybaby Mets, complaining that Clemmons threw at Pizza Man Mike, why should he. Clemmons is cool. Look at how many Cy Youngs he won even though none were with the Yanks. Pizza Mike is just interested in the money.
Clemens, Piazza, and whoever else. My grandfather (a WWI veteran) used to say that big strong boys like that should be in the army.
The reason the gutless Cleamens threw at Piazza is that Mike has eaten him up alive in the past. The pitch was a beanball, make no mistake about it. One of these days, Roger the rat will field a bunt down the first base line and someone will send him sprawling into the dirt with a separated shoulder. That was a gutless and pathetic act on your pitcher's part, and don't give me any crap that it was an accident because it wasn't.
The Yanks are in the American League, the pitcher never hits. By the way. When you are at Nathans, head up toward the boardwalk,on Stillwell, turn left on the boardwalk, 2nd store on left. The best place for Brooklyn T Shirts, even if you are from QUEENS.
[The Yanks are in the American League, the pitcher never hits.]
Except in interleague games in the National League stadium.
Well, Yogi knows it ain't over until it's over.:-)
Makes you wonder what Leo the Lip would have said about Clemens beaning Piazza.
The trouble with the ball players today are, they are over priced cry babies. Leo, would have said good for Clemonns. Brush back Pitches are part of the game, but no a days, the hitter gets upset. If you crowd the plate, be prepared to get pitched inside.
Well, I can understand taking your hat/cap off in church. We were taught that, too. I wonder if any of those nuns were Dodger fans beneath those habits.:-)
I don't know about the nuns, but there were three priests at our Parish, St. Rits's in Long Island City where I lived most of my 14 years in New York. The quiet Father Russo was an easy going likeable person, but he was a Yankee fan and I wanted nothing to do with him. Father Pretano was a loud, aggressive person but he was a diehard Dodger fan and I loved him. The head guy was Father Parazza, and we never knew who he rooted for. I don't think he knew a baseball from ping pong ball.
Find me a picture of Brighton Beach Bob riding on the Sea Beach or Pigs on a school bus-I'll pay!!!
"...or Pigs on a school bus"
I've been on school busses, that's why I hate 'em.
Although I doubt I've ever been photographed aboard one.
You sure it wasn't one of the Franklin/Nassau specials?
I'm getting queer looks from the staff in this office this AM. Your posts are very bad for my reputation :-)
Mr t
Hey Paul: Congrats! I'm laughing so hard my sides hurt. That was great imagination on your part. If I get panned this way, I don't mind at all. If the story wasn't so bogus, I'd buy that damned photo. BTW, I tried a little pier fishing today and didn't catch a damn thing, so I must have been a better fisherman when I was nine. Nice going. I'm sure Bob loved it too.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I like the bogus story that you're in a phtot riding the Brighton Line in the 1940s. Makes for some interesting reading.
BMTJeff
hey jeff... what do you mean bogus story?... this is a genuine photograph... on the back of the photo he wrote:
" i caught 5 codfish today.i sure wish i lived on the brighton line. it would be great to have a real 4 track railroad to ride on, as well as the world renowned franklin shuttle. i would give anything to be #1 "
i am sure fred will authenticate this photo... and that will have nothing to do with my splitting the final sale price with him ( of course, after i deduct some administrative and advertising expenses)
Heypaul: Occasional readers of this site might be forgiven if they come to the conclusin that the BMT had only two lines. Why is it that we never hear from #3 West End Wally or #5 Culver Charlie? There at least one contributor who could qualify for the # 11 , I refer of course to our friend Karl B,aka Mr Lexington Avenue El. Doug of course has a lock (or the locks) on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
That still leaves about nine numbers open. Lets hear from #6 Fifth Avenue Fanny or #8 Astoria Al. How about #16 Canarsie Clancy or #14 Broadway Bertha.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It's very simple Larry. Those other guys do not share the passion or enthusiam for their lines as we Sea Beachers and those Brighton boys do. We love our subway lines and we don;t mind bragging about it and boasting of our handles. Maybe there isn't a West End Wally or a Lexington Len. Ever thought of that?
Well, Chris R16 could almost put a #15 in front of his handle.
Would That Be Jamaica Local Joe. Lets face it, the Brighton is the most diverse line in the BMT Southern Div. El, Embankment, cut with 2 types of tunnels, subway, a bridge, both Local and Express outside, whatelse compares?
I feel the same way about the Brighton line. It certainly is distinctive in its diversity of construction. As I've said before, the Southern Division as a whole ranks up there in my book, even though the A line still gets the nod as being my personal favorite.
Now you're getting me to believe that such a photo exists. There is only one Sea Beach Fred and that's me. Those other guys are frauds. But if such a photo really exists, you must get ahold of me. I want that photo----but I know you're not serious.
07/08/2000
[Now you're getting me to believe that such a photo exists. There is only one Sea Beach Fred and that's me. Those other guys are frauds. But if such a photo really exists, you must get ahold of me. I want that photo----but I know you're not serious.]
Fred,
Heypaul showed me that photo, that is you and not imposter. You are wearing a tee shirt with a scrawled message on the front saying "I hate the Sea Beach"!
Heypaul and I wouldn't lie would we?
Bill "Newkirk"
"Heypaul and I wouldn't lie would we"?
Well since I'm led to believe you're great Clinton supporters, then yes you guys would lie your asses off. But just on the remote possibility that the photo really exists, you can call me at home. I shouldn't do this because I could get some crank calls, but 626-446-3048 will get you in touch with me. Let me know how much that photo costs. If it exists I would like to have it----that is, if the price isn't through the roof.
You're listed in the phone book. If anybody wanted to crank call you, they could have done so already.
[I shouldn't do this because I could get some crank calls, but 626-446-3048 will get you in touch with me. Let me know how much that photo costs. If it exists I would like to have it----that is, if the price isn't through the roof.]
Say Fred, are you certain that's your phone number?
I gave it a try and got some woman on the other end (with a sultry voice) who asked me what I was wearing, and then proceeded to describe to me what little she had on at the time. It was quite embarrassing! It was obviously a wrong number when she told me the call was going to cost me $19.95 for the first 5 minutes! (I immediately hung up, of course).
I'll have to make sure I'm dialing correctly (I thought ALL of LA was 213. I guess times change, huh?).
Doug aka BMTman
Not 213, 626, and if a woman answers on the other end of the line she will have a nice sweet pleasant voice that matches her personality. It might make you wonder why that seemingly classy lady got stuck with a Sea Beach mug like me.
07/09/2000
[Well since I'm led to believe you're great Clinton supporters, then yes you guys would lie your asses off]
Fred,
I can't speak for heypaul, but I am not a Clinton supporter and goes for the both of them!
Bill "Newkirk"
Then I have to believe you're telling the truth. Tell Heypaul to give me a jingle---that is, if the story is on the up and up.
actually the photo was purchased by doug for $1000... he took it to the appraisers on the antique roadshow, and discovered that i had misidentified the photo... the appraiser claimed that it was really a picture of brighton beach bob... i didn't notice that the young person in the picture was wearing a madison high school tee shirt with a picture of coach artie wunderlich on the front... doug is demanding his money back as the appraiser valued the photo for only $80... it seems like there has been a glut of artie wunderlich shirts on the market... i will try to be more careful authenticating my photos in the future... i am currently trying to verify a picture of a young farmer pulling his plow with an old look gm bus... the man's face seems a dead ringer for thurston, but i am trying to verify this in the archives of connecticut farmer magazine...
You got me. You succeeded in pulling a sandbag over me. I thought it was bogus at first, but you were able to fool me. Shame on me for falling for it. I will know better next time. But your first post was worth the sandbagging. I really was laughing my pants off.
Hey Paul, I was wearing my Madison T Shirt this morning, and come to think of it Coach Wunderlich does look like James Madison. No wonder why he stayed so long.
This Swamp Yankee doesn't look anything a guy from Brooklyn, i.e. no straw hat, corn cob pipe, or bib overalls
Mr t
No torn briches and bear feet with a fishing pole and a red scarf either?
No that guy is from down South and whistles a lot ;-)
I do very much like GOING HOME for a country fair on Labor Day. My job is to cut the meat for the hero sandwiches for my Aunt who gathers a group in the kitchen of the Grange Hall. There are still a lot of folks who I'm related to who work at that fair. So it's kind of a reunion. Unfortunately my cousin Al who was the beer man for many years doesn't work that booth anymore :-(
My CITY kids have met up close and personal: chickens, geese, pigs, goats, rabbits, horses, cattle, etc. My daughter got up set when I went over to the cow wash area to clean the cow flops off my grandson. If you haven't seen what it takes to get the cattle to pull a stone sled visit one of these fairs this summer, i.e. the drivers have a unique vocabulary & even get their shoulders into it if the wip doesn't motivate them.
Does anyone know what a "thank you maam" is. It relates to transit althought not recently.
BTW, it occurs to me that Heypaul would look right a home on a John Deer pulling a hey ride & telling the kids scary stories about his adventures in the New York City underground.
Mr t__:^)
thurston... not a bad idea... but get me a mack bus, and hitch up a bail of hay to the back of it,and i'll give the kids a scary ride without saying a word :-)
[... hitch up a bail of hay to the back ...]
Would that be a round or rectangular one
Mr t
hey thurston... what do i know about hay rides?... i assume that a bunch of people sit on a pile a hay and it gets dragged across the field... i guess it would have to be rectangular, although a round one might be a lot more challenging to stay on... :-)
Show s how worldly Hey Paul is by living his whole live on Ocean Ave and Ave W in Brooklyn.
I'm a city boy born and bred, and even I know what a hayride is. In heypaul's case, we would fill the Mack with hay and have heypaul drive and scare the kiddies!
SEPTA is advertising a 2-pronged GO this weekend. The first is the bussing of the Frankford El north of Spring Garden for installation of ATC equipment and station work (Berks, Huntingdon, Church). Two bus shuttles will provide service, one local and one from Center City express to Frankford Terminal.
The other is on subway-surface Route 34 where track renewal has resulted in single track operation on Baltimore Ave from the subway portal to 49th St. To allow special work replacement at 42nd, 34 cars will follow Woodland Ave (11, 36 route) to 49th and 49th to Baltimore, using non-revenue trackage on 49th St in both directions.
Re: the subject...
Not today! I had to use that station twice! (Dinner "meeting" at Sammy's Roumanian...)
-Dave
actually what's this about low patronage when i visited new york last i used the bowery station and i'm 6'8"! so what's this about low?
How was the flank steak? :o>
Seriously, have they made any progress there with the archaeological restoration? Some of the wall tile isn't half bad, some of it's as bad as Chambers.
wayne
If you take a ride to the station, you'll notice they're doing tile work on the wall of the northbound middle track. The contractors set up a temporary storage facility for equipment at the north end of the station. As far as I'm concerned, the station isn't as desolate as it once was. I guess the TA noticed that and decided to perform a little fix up of the station.
Yes, but they do have quite a water leak in that general area (north end of the station on the Jamaica-bound side). Some of the tile has fallen as well. Perhaps they have the situation in hand. It's a slow leak in a water main, not an underground water source like at Chambers.
wayne
Is DEP footing the repair bill?
They are currently working at the south end of the station. There are areas indicating loose tiles on the walls down toward the north end.
Sammys?? Wow, that place looks downright scary from the outside.
I've never ventured in. What is it like>
Well, it is kind of a hole. It's supposed to be known for it's lower east side-type Jewish kosher steakhouse. The food was okay - with what I suppose were traditional Jewish/kosher side dishes and stuff (although I never saw a place with a small pitcher of chicken fat on the table)... But for that kind of money and the desire to eat some red meat, I'd have preferred Keen's in midtown.
Sammy's is KOSHER? As in, under supervision, or is it
kosher-style?
Oh. Well. Not being Jewish I don't really know. Kosher-style I guess.
-Dave
I love that term "Kosher-style"; it's kind of like being slightly pregnant.
There are ETHNIC "styles", but the term "Kosher" is a term that roughly means "In accordance with Jewish Law". It is series of dietary restrictions and preparation specifications.
When people say "Kosher-style", I think they lump together all food that came out of Eastern European ethnic traditions, which may or not be Kosher.
Anyway, this is off-topic. How 'bout them Rusting Redbirds?
[I love that term "Kosher-style"; it's kind of like being slightly pregnant.
There are ETHNIC "styles", but the term "Kosher" is a term that roughly means "In accordance with Jewish Law". It is series of dietary restrictions and preparation specifications.
When people say "Kosher-style", I think they lump together all food that came out of Eastern European ethnic traditions, which may or not be Kosher.]
I believe there are degrees of "Kosherness." I've worked with a few people who will not patronize "normal" Kosher restaurants, and only would go to those which were, for lack of a better term, more strictly Kosher (there was a special name for those, I can't remember it).
I believe the term you're looking for is "Glatt Kosher". Hassidim and other Ultra-Orthodox Jews will only eat there.
"Glatt Kosher" is a reference to a kosher restaurant that serves meat (to the exclusion of dairy products). "Dairy Kosher" serves dairy products (to the exclusion of meat). Ratner's, my favorite restaurant on the Lower East Side, is dairy kosher.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glatt Kosher also refers to more strict Kosher restrictions.
The term comes from the time when the inspectors would check for TB in the animal's lungs. If the disease was there, they would declare the meat non-kosher. If evidence of the disease was found, but it was gone by the time the animal was killed, then the animal would be simply kosher, however, if the lungs were clean then it would be Glot Kosher.
OK, thanks for the clarification... since we are Reform and don't maintain a strictly kosher household I guess I hadn't concerned myself with that distinction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not anymore!!! Ratner's is under new ownership and has
decided to drop kosher certification.
That's not kosher! (Sorry about the awful pun)...
I ate there a couple of times; very good food.
Wayne
Jeff, thanks for letting me know... I normally make a point of eating kosher when I am in the City (or travelling elsewhere) since I do wish to avoid the mixing of meat and dairy products, even though I don't get concerned about using the same set of dishes or about the certification of my steak. Guess I'll have to find another place to eat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Second Avenue Deli is the best. It's on 2nd Ave. (of course) at 10th St. And it's certified Kosher (meat). The one problem some might have is that it is open on Friday night and Saturday, but otherwise it meets all specifications, as far as I know.
Thanks. I'll be in the City - with family, not subfanning :-( - either this weekend or next, we'll probably stop there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you happen to know who certifies it kosher? It used to be under reliable supervision but that changed about, oh, ten years ago. I'd love to discover that I can eat there again. (Most agencies won't certify a restaurant that's open on the Sabbath, particularly if it's Jewish-owned (I don't know if this one is) and particularly if it's in a city with lots of other kosher restaurants, so I'd be interested to learn who's still willing to do this. Jews aren't allowed to cook on the Sabbath, and any food cooked by or under the auspices of a Jew on the Sabbath is no longer kosher, even if it was when it was raw.)
Same ownership; the owners decided to cater to a different crowd.
The restaurant closed a few weeks ago for remodeling -- I ate there on its last night and walked out with a menu. When it reopens it will no longer be under kosher supervision.
There's always the Kosher pizza place at Ave. J and East 14 St. in Brooklyn.
There are lots of kosher pizza places, but I have a strong dislike for pizza. (I dislike both tomatoes and cheese.) Ratner's was the only kosher dairy restaurant that I know of with an emphasis on anything other than pizza. (Not that it should matter to me in East Central Illinois, where the nearest kosher restaurants of any sort are about 150 miles away.)
When I was a boy, there was the "Famous Dairy Restaurant" (yes, that was its name) on the NE corner of Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, right at the IRT station. That had everything. Who knows, maybe it's still there...
BTW I don't know who approves the 2nd Avenue Deli, just that friends of mine go there, who wouldn't if it weren't.
If 2nd Avenue Deli is open on Sabbath, then the food isn't Kosher - I would guess that it is open for the benefit of goyim like myself who enjoy the taste of authentic Kosher-style food, even if it isn't strictly Kosher. For us, it does not matter.
wayne
If 2nd Avenue Deli is open on Sabbath, then the food isn't Kosher - I would guess that it is open for the benefit of goyim like myself who enjoy the taste of authentic Kosher-style food, even if it isn't strictly Kosher. For us, it does not matter.
Let me clarify that - the food sold on Sabbath proper would not be Kosher, it most certainly would be during the rest of the week.
wayne
[I believe the term you're looking for is "Glatt Kosher". Hassidim and other Ultra-Orthodox Jews will only eat there.]
That's the term. Thanks.
Like anything else in Judaism, there are disagreements over a few details in the laws of kashrut. Glatt is one (which Sephardim actually consider the basic law and which some Ashkenazic communities have adopted as stringencies), regarding the status of the lungs of meat; in fact, so many communities have adopted this stringency of late that it's difficult to find reliably kosher meat in the U.S. that isn't glatt. ('Glatt kosher' is often informally used to mean 'strictly kosher' -- hence the inevitable "Glatt Kosher Pizza" signs, which don't make much sense.)
Then there's the question about how we really know if it's kosher. Sure, the sign in the window says it is. But who put that sign there, and is he an expert in the exceedingly complex body of law in the area of kashrut? And if the restaurant owner put the sign there, even if he does know all the laws cold, there's a conflict of interest -- he might be tempted to sweep a "minor issue" under the rug. That's why most people who keep strictly kosher will generally only eat at restaurants under supervision by an outside body of experts. The largest supervising agency in the U.S., based (naturally) in NYC, is the Orthodox Union ("the OU"), the same guys who approve packaged products stamped with their trademarked U-in-a-circle imprint. (The other three majors are Organized Kashrus Laboratories ("the OK"), with a K-in-a-circle imprint; the Kof-K, with a K-in-the-Hebrew-letter-Kof imprint; and the Star-K, with a K-in-a-star imprint. The OK and the Kof-K are based in Brooklyn, the Star-K, for a change, in Baltimore.) And there are dozens of smaller agencies scattered around the world. Some places are certified by individual rabbis rather than by agencies (and some "agencies" are nothing more than individual rabbis with trademarked logos). Some people are careful to eat only at restaurants certified by agencies they know are trustworthy (so if you're thinking of going into the kosher restaurant business, it might be worth paying the extra bucks to the OU rather than having your uncle the rabbi do the job for free -- or it might not; that's a business decision you'll have to make). And some communities will specifically avoid restaurants and products certified by particular agencies, either because they consider those agencies untrustworthy or because those communities have accepted stringencies that the agencies in question have not.
So there aren't really degrees of kosherness. There are slightly differing definitions of kashrut and there are issues of reliability of kashrut claims. (Incidentally, Jewish law has much to say about who is to be accepted as a witness in claims of kashrut and about what said witness must actually see before making such claims.)
>>> the term "Kosher" is a term that roughly means "In accordance with Jewish Law" <<<
Elliot;
I think when you add the word "roughly" you have just defined Kosher Style. Kosher is strictly in accordance with Jewish Law under the supervision of a rabbi.
In downtown Los Angeles there is a fast food stand named "Kosher Burrito" which BTW is owned by an Asian. It's signature dish is a burrito made with pastrami, pickles, onions, mustard, and a bean sauce, served with hot chiles on the side. In the late 70's or early 80's, they were required by local authorities to change their signs to read "Kosher Style Burrito" because since none of the food was in fact Kosher, it was considered false advertizing. Sometime in the early 90's they removed the "Style" from the signs, and no one has complained. Since they also serve eggs, ham and cheeseburgers, I doubt that any observant Jew could mistake it for a Kosher establishment.
Tom
[In downtown Los Angeles there is a fast food stand named "Kosher Burrito" which BTW is owned by an Asian.]
You can't get much more diverse than that!
In Maryland there was a case where the State tried to claim a restaurant was falsely advertising that it was Kosher, when it was not. The judge ruled that since being Kosher is following religion, then the State cannot make any decsions as to what constitutes "Kosher" because of the First Amendment freedom of religion. Of course, the restaurant may only be accepted as kosher by its owner, but that is his right.
I know that in NYC, if a store carries kosher and non-kosher products, they must have that plain-looking sign in the window. I guess that's different because the store owner, if asked, would say, "Sure, some stuff ain't kosher". If they just said, "Naah, it's all Kosher," then the City could do nothing about it, maybe.
I like New Jersey's approach, in response to a recent constitutional challenge. You want to call your restaurant or store kosher? Go right ahead -- but you have to answer a long list of questions and post the answers prominently. You serve pork but want to call your place kosher? Fine, just check the appropriate box, and anyone who doesn't want to eat pork will see the disclosure and walk out.
New York State does enforce kashrut, and it does so fairly strictly. I read in Kashrus Magazine a few years ago that a restaurant on the Upper West Side that advertises itself as kosher was fined a hefty sum (six digits, IIRC) for serving non-kosher food as kosher.
But for that kind of money and the desire to eat some red meat, I'd have preferred Keen's in midtown.
You might try Peter Lugers located at the Driggs Ave Station of the Broadway Brooklyn El.
Driggs Ave. Station?
You mean Marcy Ave.
-Dave
I think he was referring to the OLD Driggs Ave. stop pre-1916, before the el was rebuilt for subways.
Just remember before you go there, Peter Luger's is probably one of the only restaurants left that doesn't accept credit cards!!! (except their own Peter Luger card) Also in case you don't know the other branch is on Northern Blvd in Great Neck right by Leonards on the N20 lne.
[Just remember before you go there, Peter Luger's is probably one of the only restaurants left that doesn't accept credit cards!!! (except their own Peter Luger card) Also in case you don't know the other branch is on Northern Blvd in Great Neck right by Leonards on the N20 lne.]
I wonder why ... sure, they'd have to pay fees to the card issuers, but that hasn't deterred almost any other business.
[Re: the subject...
Not today! I had to use that station twice! (Dinner "meeting" at Sammy's Roumanian...)]
You may be the start of a trend ... it's been noted that ridership at Bowery has been picking up in recent months. Don't expect to see it on the Top 10 list anytime soon, however :-)
I was on a Queens bound M train through Bowery a couple of weeks ago at about 6PM -- about a dozen people got on. That's about a dozen more than would have gotten on a few years back.
Chuck
Patronage at The Bowery is way up compared to recent years. And almost all of the new patronage is made up of Chinese-Americans, which shows that the growth of Chinatown continues unabated.
Also, the Lower East Side is becoming trendy, with nightclubs and stuff...
Also, the Lower East Side is becoming trendy, with nightclubs and stuff
The obituaries stated that Walter Mathau got is start in New York's Yiddish theatre. There were dozens of such theatres, nightclubs and restaurants. Where do you thing THEY were located?
I think they were mostly on 2nd Avenue in what we'd call the East Village.
There's has been occassional talk here about the Staten Island and other ferry lines in New York harbor. The City of New York actually operates two ferry lines. One is the famous Staten Island Ferry and the other is the Hart Island Ferry running between City Island and Hart Island. Hart Island is were Potter's Field is located. That is were the indigent dead are buried. The service is covered by the "MICHAEL COSGROVE,a 60 foot long ferry displacing 139 tons and built in 1961. The ferry operates more on "a demand " basis rather then a fixed schedule but they rarely get complaints from the customers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Interesting. Is there any more information available about this ferry? How does the boat compare to the SI Ferry boats? Do they carry vehicles on this service?
They can fit maybe 2 cars on the boat, and there is a small cabin. THe boat occasionally makes it to the SI Maintainence facility. It's tiny, even in comparison to the Austen and Noble.
-Hank
I have a cousin (by marriage) that works the Hart Island ferry. He was a deckhand on the Staten Island Ferrys for years before being "promoted" to deckhand on this ferry. He is taking the Captains exam as well.
? How does the boat compare to the SI Ferry boats? Do they carry vehicles on this service?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Micheal Cosgrove: 139 tns,60 feet long, can carry about four cars or a truck or two of dead folks.
Alice Austin and John A Noble 499 tns,207 feet long,about 1200 psgrs,no cars
Andrew J Barberi and Samuel I Newhouse, 3335 tons,300 feet long, 6000 psgrs,no cars
John F Kennedy,American Legion,The Gov Herbert H Lehman,2109 tons, 277 feet long, 3000 psgr,45 cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In 1981, I photographed a ferry named "Fordham" which looked like a very scaled-down versionof the old wood-bodied SI ferries, at the SI Ferry maintenance pier.
I believe this boat was used on the Hart island run before the Michael Cosgrove was built, and was kept as a backup boat. The "Fordham" as painted the same orange and blue as the big SI boats at the time; the Cosgrove was solid bright red when I saw it up at City Island around the same time.
There are photos and technical data of both boats, as I remember, in a book entitled "The Boats We Rode". I have it "somewhere" among the bookshelves.....
This morning at about 5:00 AM I saw a 5 car set of 142's at Jackson Ave, followed by a five car set of R-27's. One of the cars was 6113 if I'm not mistaken. Now I know the TA wants these trains in service, but they couldn't have been testing them that early in the morning on the mainline. I think they were being brought over from Pitkin Yard. Anyone have any details on this or the exact date that the 30 day test will begin?
R-27?? Do you mean R-127 or R-21/22? It couldn't be anything else, since the R-27 was scrapped a while back, and they are B division. The R-26, 28, 29, 33ML, 36 all run in married pairs, thus 5 cars is impossible, unless an R-21/22 was attached, and they'd stick out like sore thumbs (R-33WFs unlikely). I have seen one of the trains that follow the 142s (forgot what) and it was a 4 car train of R-26s.
[R-27?? Do you mean R-127 or R-21/22? It couldn't be anything else, since the R-27 was scrapped
a while back, and they are B division.] Also a R-27 (or any B division car) too wide to operate into an A-division station and many of the curves.
Wayne
No, they were not R-27's. They were R-142's and it did not stop at Jackson Ave. I've never seen R-27's with a Red Digital display on the front, and destinantion signs on the side or as bright as they were with the seats covered with brown paper.
I was referring to the train you said was following the 142s.
Jackson Av? I get a view of the station from my apartment window as I live near the station. I didn't think the cars would be running at that time of the morning. Unfortuantely, I was snoozing at the time the cars passed through. The train behind the R-142s was the protection train made up of R-26/28/29s, just there to make sure nothing goes wrong with the new kid on the block. If you saw a 5 car R-142 Train, then it must've been 6311-6315. 6301-6310 are together on the road, making simulated train stops. This evening I observed a historic view at Prospect Av: 3 generations of IRT Cars side by side with each other. Redbirds were on the southbound track, R-62s in the middle, and the R-142s were on the northbound track making a simulated train stop. I wish I had a camera for that moment!
-Stef
Shalt I, 1 South Ferry 9, suggest
parking a webcam at Stef's window
looking in the direction of the el?
1SF9
Hehehe. There's a first time for everything, my friend.....
-Stef
1. Will the M-7 be in married pairs or 3 car sets (like the M-6)?
2. Any museums planning on preserving an ACMU?
3. Why is the 4:20 P.M. out of North White Plains no longer a train of 4 ACMUs? Now, they deadhead by one minute before an 8 car train (half closed) of M-1s makes the run.
4. Anyone know of off-peak trains which are usually ACMUs?
5. When did they replace all the flipboards for the individual tracks at GCT with those digital ones (which can't even fit all the stops)?
6. I saw a 6 car train in GCT with only one FL-9 at the head, don't they require 2?
7. Do they close the track gates when any train departs or only when the ACMUs leave?
8. Why do whole trains of CDOT shoreliners make appearances on the Hudson or Harlem lines frequently, many times with a café car (unused)? Does this sometimes occur with the M-2,4,6?
9. Can you buy tickets for the Port Jervis or Pascack Valley lines at Grand Central?
10. Where can I get Mileposts West, other than on an inbound AM rush train on the Port Jervis or Pascack lines during the first week of the month?
11. Why are round trip ticket prices listed in the Pascack line schedule if they are invalid on all inbound trips?
9- No. Only at Hoboken.... 10- Good Question.... 11- Because they legally HAVE to...
11. What law is that and where can I find it. Are they also required by law to actually sell these invalid tickets if anyone is dumb enough to ask for them? Who would complain if they stopped publishing fares for invalid tickets?
I've heard that there is some talk of instituting off-peak service on the line. Then it would make some sense.
They planned on using passing sidings to allow for trains to travel in both directions.
5 - They started a few months ago on the lower level and its spreading
6 - I've seen that numerous times
7 - Since the doors are manual and they don;t want stupid idiots trying to jump on a moving train
8 - New Haven trains often have the 6100's or/and 6300's-6400's. Reason unknown. Sometimes they are mixed. Again reasons unknown.
I've seen NH electrics on Harlem line trains rarely, but you can NEVER have it the other way. Catenary pickups are necessary just before the train gets to Pehlem station
6-It was probably one of the FL-9's rebuilt with a 3000hp prime mover.
OK, so the Cannonball still exists departing Hunterspoint at 4:01 PM (Thursday). How many bilevel cars does this train use and how many engines does it use? Also, that train has Parlor car service. Now, I know that there really aren't any bilevel parlor cars yet. So why does it still cost so much more, for a reserved seat and a drink. Please tell this is not true and tell me what you really are getting with the new parlor car service.
Last summer it was 13 cars with 2 engines, one at each end. The parlor cars were the ones with the small counter at the end of the car, by the large luggage bins. There also are metal racks instead of seats in the middle of the lower level, don't know why. Does anyone know what the car #s for those cars are?
Last year I saw a Cannonball with 10 new cars (C3's) two engines (non dual mode) and they made double station stops opening each half of the train.
A few weeks ago there was an article stating that the MTA may arrange for the Yanks and Mets to take the subway between stadiums this Saturday;does anyone know if this has been confirmed or denied?
If it is true, wouldn't this trip be a great publicity run for the R142...if its ready? -Nick
The lack of a direct track connection between the #7 & #4 makes that idea a very long trip timewise.
The Wassaic extension to the Harlem line opens this Sunday. I guess to entice people to go to the new stations, there are now 4 direct trains each direction between GCT and Wassaic (formerly 2 to Dover Plains). One of these direct trains happens to be off-peak, the 3:46 to Wassaic, first discharge stop White Plains, followed by Goldens Bridge and all stops to Wassaic. There is also one weekend direct train, but I'm pretty sure that was there before.
Off-peak one-way fare to Wassaic is $9.50, not bad for a 2 hour ride.
This adds 5 miles to the Harlem line's total route distance(now 82), yet it still is in the middle compared to 88 (Waterbury) and 95 (Port Jervis); and 74 (Poughkeepsie) and 30 (Spring Valley).
Onward to Chatham!
Direct? Are they using dual mode locomotives?
Yep, they've had DMs since before Metro North. People used to complain a lot about the lack of direct trains, some people had to change trains twice (local stop before white plains, then electric to Brewster North, then shuttle to Dover Plains).
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
What would be the mileage if they extended the Hudson Line to Hudson,N.Y.? Would it be longer than the Port Jervis Line? Also realize that the Port Jervis Line mileage is actually, believe it or not, NOT from Hoboken, BUT reflective of the mileage from the old Erie terminal at Jersey City- just like for the longest time the mileposts on the old Pennsy main were actually the distance from Exchange Place NOT Penn Station!!!
[What would be the mileage if they extended the Hudson Line to Hudson,N.Y.? Would it be longer than the Port Jervis Line? Also realize that the Port Jervis Line mileage is actually, believe it or not, NOT from Hoboken, BUT reflective of the mileage from the old Erie terminal at Jersey City- just like for the longest time the mileposts on the old Pennsy main were actually the distance from Exchange Place NOT Penn Station!!!]
It's at least 30 miles from Poughkeepsie to Hudson driving via routes 9 and 9G. The rail line might be slightly more direct, but it almost certainly is more than the 21 miles needed to vault the Hudson Line into first place over the Port Jervis line (also going past the Waterbury Branch in the process).
In any event, while a Hudson Line extension to Rhinecliff has been proposed, I've never heard serious discussion of going all the way to Hudson. If Metro-North were to go as far as Hudson, they might as well keep going to Albany.
With regard to the mile measurements, it's worth noting that the LIRR counts miles not from Penn Station as might be expected, but from Long Island City.
I bet the Pennsy and LIRR quirks both have to do with some deft corporate arrangement that was made when the PRR built the whole Tunnel Extension project; with the PRR being only a 'lessor' of Penn Station, the tunnel trackage, Sunnyside, etc, from some separate corporation [something like the old BRT/ N.Y. Municipal Railway arrangement]. [The LIRR, being of course at the time a wholly-owned subsiderary of the Pennsy....] The whole electrified trackage leading up to and thru the tunnels being an entirely separate [corporately at least..]railroad. [ I JUST happened to have gotten "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson" out from the library again right now!]
Montauk Station is at milepost 115.1, so if you add on the distance from LIC to Penn Station, it's probably about 120 from Penn Station to Montauk
[Montauk Station is at milepost 115.1, so if you add on the distance from LIC to Penn Station, it's probably about 120 from Penn Station to Montauk]
I've long wondered whether the LIRR sells any monthly tickets from Montauk.
According to an LIRR Employees Timetable that I have, it is 3.7 from "New York" (which LIRR used as the Penn Station designation) to Harold. From Long Island City to Harold it is 1.8 miles.
Only 1.5 miles difference, so the total from Penn Station to Montauk comes to 116.6 miles.
Lou: Metro North Hudson Line mileage is based on the old route which followed Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The employee timetable shows Marble Hill at MP 9.8 and Spuyten Duyvil at MP 11.1. The actual distance between these two stations is 1416 feet.
Larry,RedbirdR33
On the AMTRAK Harrisburg Line there are some ghost miles around Lancaster where the alignment was redone in the early 1900's. I believe that mile 37 is about 1700 feet long.
What was the original routing? Did it pass up where the Putnum
used to diverge and come back thru the old rail yard where JFK HS
is now?
If you look on the MTA web site at the map showing the Marble Hill
station, it is in the wrong place http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/html/planning/stations/mhillmp.htm
(of course on the spuyten duyvil map both Johnson Ave and the Hudson line run thru the river....)
Bill
[Metro North Hudson Line mileage is based on the old route which followed Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The employee timetable shows Marble Hill at MP 9.8 and Spuyten Duyvil at MP 11.1. The actual distance between these two stations is 1416 feet.]
That's probably the shortest distance between two commuter rail stations anywhere in the NYC area.
Long Island City to Hunterspoint is shorter.
What would be the LONGEST distance between two stations? On the Port Jervis Line it is 10.5 mi between Harriman and Salisbury Mills/Cornwall, 9.7 between SM/C and Campbell Hall, 9.8 between Middletown and Otisville, and 13.4 between Otisville and Port Jervis. [Its 'only' 6.2 between Campbell Hall and Middletown....Also the average north of Harriman is just under 10 miles between stations]What are some of the distances like on the Montauk Branch?
Besides the fact that the PJ line is basically defacto NJT (ie it is Met N in name and funding only) the "Metro North" portion of the line only runs from Sufferen to Port Jervis and Metro North millage should be counted thusly. Same goes with the Spring Valley line (which is even more NJT than the PJ line. Are not there only 2 stations in NY state?)
The SV line has 3 stations in NY, last I checked they didn't even have MN style station signs or those trapezoid info centers (the PJ line does).
I saw an article in the Times a couple of years ago concerning a proposed station even further north of Wassaic. Does anyone have any info regarding this ?
we are currently about 20 posts away from message number 135000... from my studies of numerology and etherology, i must issue a warp in webspace warning about that post... it is likely that a sink hole will develop at the post, perhaps engulfing the post and the poster... since i know several of my enemies take delight in ignoring my words, i am hoping that this warning will be taken in a similar spirit by them...
...but if my theory is correct, a residual effect will be felt over a small area of Sheepshead Bay -- to wit, a dark cloud will hang over Ocean Avenue for several months blocking out the Sun and sending all those under it's path into a state of complete depression and anxiety. The people under the cloud will suspect that heypaul has something to do with the blocking out of the Sun (since most crazy things that happen are blamed on him). They will end up breaking down his door, tying him to a stake and attempt to boil him in a big pot in an offering to appease the 'gods' in bringing back the Sun.....well maybe I've gone on tooo long now....
;-)
yes but then with the Brighton closed because of the riots all D and Q trains will be routed via the Sea Beach causing massive congestion which everyone will in turn blame on Sea Beach Fred
We have a winner! Brighton Exp Bob is the poster of message 135000.
Peace,
ANDEE
What are those abandoned tunnels on PATH after 9th street on the 33rd street line?
Also there are abandoned tunnel leads on the 63rd street line after Lexington avenue going east.
PATH seems much faster than NYC subways. Especially the tube for the 33rd street line. Is it because their equipment is in better shape?
Also had a few T/O's who really cut it close with timers on PATH, one guy was right on top of the trip arm as it was going down!
In general the timers on PATH are easy to beat, there is only a few before the tube to beat, in NYC subway there are at least 4 or 5 of them upon a declining grade in an under-river tube. I guess the TA uses all the timers (GT's) to cover up their shoddy track work and
maintainance.
What are those abandoned tunnels on PATH after 9th street on the 33rd street line?
I believe a spur was planned, but was discarded after construction.
Also there are abandoned tunnel leads on the 63rd street line after Lexington avenue going east.
I noticed that today, I guess for the 2nd ave line (even though they head south)?? The leads are also present heading westbound just before Lex.
Also had a few T/O's who really cut it close with timers on PATH, one guy was right on top of the trip arm as it was going down!
You don't know the PATH rules for signals?
Green: Well, you never see that
Yelllow: Full Speed Ahead!
Red: Slow down a little
Taillights 100' away: Stop
Just kidding!
Isn't that tunnel near 9th street the fabled Astor Place connection?
Yes. See Conrad Misek's post for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PATH bellmouths just beyond 9th Street are for a planned extension that never was constructed. They only go a few feet.
The connections you see on the 63rd Street line are part of the provisions for the Second Avenue line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PATH (H&M) had at least two seriously considered extensions. One was under 9th Street to the Astor Place IRT/Lex. station, the other was beyond 33rd Street to GCT.
Also note southbound in Jersey City, just prior to entering Pavonia, the tunnel jogs to the left, avoiding the original alignment (the scene of a tunneling accident). At Grove Street, the extreme east end of the westbound platform side, note the tunnel spur leading to the site of the old Henderson Street shop.
You may also know that the Newark Station is not the original - - the original was at Park Place, current site of the Performing Arts Center. The H&M had their own bridge across the river, abutments for the span are still visible at the waters' edge.
Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I thought those tunnel leads were the connection from the 7th Avenue line(N/R) to the 63rd St. tunnel or are those tracks elsewhere?
{{In addition, the person
said, when the supervisors
were questioned by
((could not say with
certainty...they had
completed the inspections
in question. ... time cards
showed ...
inspectors had not worked
on the days when records
indicate that they
performed the inspections.)))
So much for safety (in sadness more than anger)
[[
[[
WABC-TV had the story on the news this morning.
Get out your RCI manuals, here's another obscure tech question!
Riding on a train of R-32s today (Jamaica fleet) we stopped
on the upgrade approaching Ely Ave. Fairly close to the third
rail gap at the crossover. Now, get this: After about 10 seconds
of being stopped, the lights go into emergency mode (only 2 tubes
in the whole car lit). Same thing in the mate car behind us.
HOWEVER, the blower fans and compressor were still running, so
we couldn't have been off the rail. Shortly after we started moving
again, the lights came back on normal.
Speculation as to the cause of this?
That's too easy! You were in the (first car) odd car which was not gapped. The car behind you, the even car, was gapped. With the even car gapped, the converted drops out causing the ELR in both cars to drop out. This is because the main lights operate on battery voltage
Another question, what can cause the ELR to come on in one car and not the other lights out pitch dark? (this was the last car, assume we were gapped so the emer. lights came on in the other car).
Since the main lights in the R-32 are strictly battery, the ELR does not function in the same way as the ELR of old. If the emergency lights do not come on in a given car it is likely a simple component failure such as the ELR itself.
Ooops, "my bad" as the kids today say. How is the ELR signal carried
from the even car to the lighting inverter in the odd car? Is it
one of the extra non-trainline trainlines that run in the jumpers
between the two cars in the pair?
FROM THE NY DAILY NEWS
Peace,
ANDEE
Very interesting article. Especially the excerpt below:
A TA spokesman said riders' safety was not
jeopardized, but the agency is reviewing staffing
levels and changing record keeping and
inspection procedures.
"We are taking a look at the workload and seeing
if we have adequate numbers of supervisors," TA
spokesman Al O'Leary said. "The critical issue in
our mind was does this have safety implications?
Are signals not being properly maintained? We
came to the conclusion that safety had not been
compromised."
In other words, those inspections weren't really necessary and we are going to add more personnel to make sure that these unnecesary inspections are really done in the future.
Who does he think he's kidding?
I sort of agree....
The singnal maintener goes out puts a new bulb relay or widget in, tests it and goes on to the next assignement.
The following motormen will let them know if there are still problems out there.
I make a different analysis. The stripped down message is we want you to believe safety was not in question but we need to tighten up our process. In the Times piece which I quoted in an earlier post the significant part to me was inspections were logged on days when the inspector in question was not on duty. That to me is serious fraud--can you say fired? As to the actual necessity--the signal system is vital. No if's, and's or but's, so checking and rechecking seems correct.
Anybody remember when a passenger train was rammed at, I Believe l03rd and Bway by the money train or some other non-revenue movement?: Luckily during the night but still enough injuries. With the #1 train in the station the extra or whatever had a GREEN signal. Officials later admitted emergency mickey-mouse repairs to that signal, and it was SOP to keep things moving. PLEASE. needless to say it backfired and caused a wreck.
[inspections were logged on days when the inspector in question was not on duty.]
Where I work, for bookkeeping reasons, employees sometimes work on days that the official record says they were off.
I have heard through the grapevine that there is a Lincoln Center Festival/Mostly Mozart Festival MetroCard with a 09/30/2001 expiration date. Does anyone know where it is available?
I got my at Stillwell ave station. The Mermayd Ave exit. The MVM to the far left as you exit the station.
Robert
Yesterday's Daily News had an article about the only other time in recorded baseball history when two teams in one city played each other in a regular season day-night doubleheader using both ballparks. Happened in Sept. 1903 when the NY Giants and Brooklyn Superbas (later the Dodgers) played an AM game in Brooklyn (Washington Park, at 4th St. and 3d Ave. in the Park Slope area) and a PM game in Manhattan (Polo Grounds, 155th St/8th Ave.) It was not called the "Subway Series" then because subways did not open in NY for another year.
So how did the teams go from one ballpark to the other? My guess - BRT elevated from Flatbush/Atlantic Ave. to Park Row, walk west to the 9th Ave. El which took them uptown to 155th St. Anyone else have any possible routes?
doug diamond was deeply disappointed by greyhound's opening of a brooklyn bus boarding point by the dekalb avenue station on flatbush ave... doug had been lobbying furiously to have the greyhound station stop in brooklyn located at the prospect park end of the franklin shuttle... he had hoped that such placement would accomplish his dream of having the franklin shuttle connect to all destinations in the united states, canada, and mexico... despite this disappointment, he is continuing his efforts to have prospect park changed into an international airfield, so as to connect the shuttle with all points on the globe... failing that effort, he has backup plans to have nasa move the space shuttle launch site moved to the park... this would realize his ultimate goal of connecting the franklin shuttle to a shuttle to the universe...
Keep cool man! Who said the Franklin Shuttle doesn't connect to all points via Greyhound? Of course it does..via connections at Franklin/Fulton (A train to 42/ 8th). Maybe even at Prospect Park, 6th Ave trains to West 4th change for 8th Ave. Ha Ha. Or easier yet Prospect Park to Dekalb for Greyhound there. Heck, even from my podunk town in Nodak I have connections to all those places. Including Prospect Park and Franklin shuttle--via Greyhound first. Sleep tight. You'll need it if you read this in the morning. Hi Doug!
Hey, Ed!
Thanks for putting heypaul in his place (which should be Ward G at Kings County, but that's another story).
The Franklin Shuttle makes connections to everything BUT the express station at Nostrand Ave. (where it should have been connected to if NYCT had the dough to do so). I can live with it being one track north of Botanic Garden station, but the TA could easily have extended the El structure two blocks East to Nostrand and that would have made the Shuttle much more viable link in the system. Too bad.
BTW, I've been meaning to say "hi" to you again and ask you a question: of all the equipment you've operated on the subway system, which one was your favorite in terms of reliability in revenue service?
Doug aka BMTman
>>>I can live with
it being one track north of Botanic Garden station, but the TA could easily have extended the
El structure two blocks East to Nostrand and that would have made the Shuttle much more
viable link in the system. <<<
Maybe so, but the NIMBY rule these days is no more els, and for Pete's sake, don't reactivate old commuter rail ROWs!
www.forgotten-ny.com
In terms of reliability I'd say the R40, preferably non A/C, menaing the slants. For some reason the A/C did make a difference in train braking.Behind that the R27/30. My favorite-real favorite but I have to defer to their condition in later years in terms of reliability, was the R1-9, I loved running them. As for #1 on my favorites list, never did get to run them, but as a fan: The IRT High-V's.
ed... i really don't know much about the high-v's other than the controller had 600 volts in the motorman's cab... how dangerous was that?... did anyone ever get hurt because of it?... were the high v's a different running car than the low v's?
The Hi-V controller was more like an old-style streetcar
controller. You have the ability to notch-up by hand.
There is 600V inside the controller, but the controller frame
is grounded and the handle knob is double-insulated. I've
never heard of any accidents during the Hi-V's years.
You want to run one today (well, maybe not TODAY, but in the
contemporary era) Join up at Branford!
Yes, heypaul, we'd like to see you up at Branford lending a hand (or two). Speaking of volunteering, the latest BERA newsletter has a shot of Stef working the roof of IRT R-17 #6688 as he steadies himself by grabbing hold of a live overhead wire. Needless to say we "grounded" Stef for the rest of that day.
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
HEY! Wise guy aren't you? Don't worry railfans, this enthusiast (I, the one decreed as Stef) was quite safe clutching the 600v overhead. Kids, don't try this at home...
-Stef
I've heard of grounding someone for not "making the grade", but this is ridiculous.:-)
Then there's Seashore's Gibbs Hi-V 3352. Todd has reported that it needs a lot of work, to make a long story short.
Sorry to hear also from a friend of mine that Branford couldn't run their High-V, 3662, because of air problems and repair parts impossble to find as they had a unique triple valve. Perhaps and hopefully that situation has been corrected, as I got that news last December.
Your news was very dated even as of last December. The
problem with the triple valve was repaired (by me, I might
add) in winter 1998.
That pleases me to hear this news. Assume you had to machine your own parts? But happy to hear there is one operative High V in the country. Thanks.
In this case it required nothing more than a good cleaning and
the replacement of some gaskets.
An October date to think about ... 7th & 8th at Shoreline you'll be able to ride (fingers crossed):
Hi-V #3662; Lo-V #5466; BU El Gate car #1227; R-9 #1689; R-17 #6688, the 1st PCC delivered to an operator #1001.
Also H&M #503 will probally be outside in static display (still a lot of work inside before she's ready for customers) AND you can get up close & personal with Std #2775 & SIRT #388.
There will also be ONLY of NYC trolleys in operation these days AND there are some other choice items in the collection burried in the barns that you might want to see. Come early and ask if one of the members would be able to show you that car, i.e. the Mineola. We want to please, so if there's enough staff available we'll try to accomodate reasonable requests. OR you can just let Doug, Lou, Jeff, Steve, Patrick or myself TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE ... ding ding.
Mr t__:^)
Guess Jeff H took care of some of the questions. I never had a chance to run High-v"s; but I enjoyed them so much as a child and youth railfan. Right, 600 volts right in the controller (and I've been told. electric brake line); acceleration manual, first 5 points (If I"m right about 5 , maybe 4 but think 5) were in series, manual transition to the next 5 points in parallel.There was a big notch in the controller between series and parallel, and just like all but the newest diesels you feel the High-V's lay back making transition. They had a bus jumpers between cars, so the entire train was always energized, therefore trailers had no contact shoes.Going over gaps there was no lights blinking out nor each car dropping the motor controls and then picking up again. They had the same HP (400) as the Low-V's, felt about the same over the road but there was something so awesome about them with the exotic mixtures...Gibbs, Deckroofs, and standard ( these in motor and trailer.) No lineswitch pop when controller was shut off. You could hear them notch up, and then wind down when going out of power. Send me an e-mail if you need more.
They (and the Lo-Vs) are 380 (2x190) HP cars, actually. Yes, the
electric brake trainlines were also 600VDC. There was no battery
on these cars, except most of the cars got battery emergency lighting
in the 1920s or so (except the Deckroofs, for some reason). Accel
under full manual control but you could also "wind the clocK"
and let the automatic acceleration take over. No line switch
per se...the contactors under the car were individually rated to
interrupt the main motor current.
IIRC, the controllers on the Gibbs Hi-Vs had a heavy coil spring which prevented the motorman from notching up too fast.
Yes indeed; and there was an overload relay that dropped out all the motors if you accelerated too fast. Now I'm speaking from the 50's, perhaps the auto. acceleration feature had been removed; I don't know for a fact. But I do remember riding with one or two motormen that had to reset a few times. You could hear and even see the arc from the 600 V reset switch. One motor instructor that I knew had run the High-v's and told me he used to light his cigarettes with that reset switch. I used to have a l9l6 IRT rule book and there was mention of (in a rule) automatic feed. It was to be used normally if the train was so equipped. But the rule went on that should it fail you were to run manually, tag the controller, and report the defect. If you liked the R1-9 too bad you weren't around to ride the old IRT before the R17's and up arrived. It was great.
No, the Hi-Vs were long gone by the time I became immersed in the subway, and by the time I had learned about the remaining Lo-Vs and Q cars, they were gone as well. Luckily, I was able to savor the R-1/9s while they were still around. I suppose the BMT standards should receive honorable mention. Looking back, I've come to appreciate having the opportunity to ride on them as well. But oh, how I wish I could have experienced the Triplexes...
Steve, It is too bad you could not work it out so that you could have caught one of the three dates of these trips. I'll let you sit on my shoulder (in spirt) on the 23rd.
Mr t__:^)
The line breaker also drops out if you lose the 600. Not a big
deal running a train with the bus jumpers but when you are moving
a single unit around it gets kind of annoying.
The controller is such that you can "wind it up", which only
puts tension on a spring. The rest of the controller follows
along, notching up under control of the accelerating relay
trainline. If that isn't working, then the automatic accel feature
fails and you must notch by hand.
Guess Jeff H took care of some of the questions. I never had a chance to run High-v"s; but I enjoyed them so much as a child and youth railfan. Right, 600 volts right in the controller (and I've been told. electric brake line); acceleration manual, first 5 points (If I"m right about 5 , maybe 4 but think 5) were in series, manual transition to the next 5 points in parallel.There was a big notch in the controller between series and parallel, and just like all but the newest diesels you feel the High-V's lay back making transition. They had a bus jumpers between cars, so the entire train was always energized, therefore trailers had no contact shoes.Going over gaps there was no lights blinking out nor each car dropping the motor controls and then picking up again. They had the same HP (400) as the Low-V's, felt about the same over the road but there was something so awesome about them with the exotic mixtures...Gibbs, Deckroofs, and standard ( these in motor and trailer.) No lineswitch pop when controller was shut off. You could hear them notch up, and then wind down when going out of power. Send me an e-mail if you need more.
They (and the Lo-Vs) are 380 (2x190) HP cars, actually. Yes, the
electric brake trainlines were also 600VDC. There was no battery
on these cars, except most of the cars got battery emergency lighting
in the 1920s or so (except the Deckroofs, for some reason). Accel
under full manual control but you could also "wind the clocK"
and let the automatic acceleration take over. No line switch
per se...the contactors under the car were individually rated to
interrupt the main motor current.
IIRC, the controllers on the Gibbs Hi-Vs had a heavy coil spring which prevented the motorman from notching up too fast.
Yes indeed; and there was an overload relay that dropped out all the motors if you accelerated too fast. Now I'm speaking from the 50's, perhaps the auto. acceleration feature had been removed; I don't know for a fact. But I do remember riding with one or two motormen that had to reset a few times. You could hear and even see the arc from the 600 V reset switch. One motor instructor that I knew had run the High-v's and told me he used to light his cigarettes with that reset switch. I used to have a l9l6 IRT rule book and there was mention of (in a rule) automatic feed. It was to be used normally if the train was so equipped. But the rule went on that should it fail you were to run manually, tag the controller, and report the defect. If you liked the R1-9 too bad you weren't around to ride the old IRT before the R17's and up arrived. It was great.
No, the Hi-Vs were long gone by the time I became immersed in the subway, and by the time I had learned about the remaining Lo-Vs and Q cars, they were gone as well. Luckily, I was able to savor the R-1/9s while they were still around. I suppose the BMT standards should receive honorable mention. Looking back, I've come to appreciate having the opportunity to ride on them as well. But oh, how I wish I could have experienced the Triplexes...
Steve, It is too bad you could not work it out so that you could have caught one of the three dates of these trips. I'll let you sit on my shoulder (in spirt) on the 23rd.
Mr t__:^)
The line breaker also drops out if you lose the 600. Not a big
deal running a train with the bus jumpers but when you are moving
a single unit around it gets kind of annoying.
The controller is such that you can "wind it up", which only
puts tension on a spring. The rest of the controller follows
along, notching up under control of the accelerating relay
trainline. If that isn't working, then the automatic accel feature
fails and you must notch by hand.
Thanks, Ed. Glad to hear you enjoyed the reliability of the slant R-40's. They are at the top of my list of all-time favorite NYC subway rolling stock. Even though they were deemed "lemons" due to their lack of end-gate saftey features, I appreciated the Raymond Loewy 'shovel-nose' design that gave us a unique looking subway car.
And it's good to hear you liked the R 1-9 series of cars. I recently acquired an R-9 deadman's handle and it sits proudly on the top of my bookcase.
Doug aka BMTman
say ed... what you said about the connections to greyhound via the d or the a is what is have been telling doug... but he insists that there should be direct connection with greyhound, or the airlines, or the space shuttle... he wants a one seat ride...
don't get me wrong... i am not attacking doug... i think after me he is the most reasoned person here at subtalk... it's just his obsession with the franklin shuttle
like his new project is to get parker brothers to issue a special franklin ave shuttle edition of monopoly... there would only be 4 spaces to land on... each side of the board would be a stop... the little toys that move around the board are either r11's, r68's, or a brt wooden car... if you roll two sixes, you get to ride on the brt malbone special...
i can't convince him that no one would be interested in playing the game...
heypaul...the Monopoly Franklin Shuttle Edition sounds like a great idea!
But only for ERA members or a select group of SubTalkers.
BTW, where are you getting the creative energy for all these posts? Has the medication worn off? I don't recall a full moon is due in the next couple of days...
Doug aka BMTman
era members and a special group of subtalkers will be on the initial run of the malbone street special...
thanks for noticing that my creative energies seem a bit higher...it may have something to do with my use of the killfile... i have put everyone's handle in my killfile... this way i get to read only my posts, which has greatly improved my mental health...
Do you know that you can get customized monopoly sets. I don't know specifics, but there are companies that make them to order. Usually towns buy them to promote local buissness. Subway monopoly would not be hard to make.
That's very interesting. I might go and check out the feasibility of doing just that.
Thanks for the info!
Doug aka BMTman
I have seen Phidelphia monopoly, Haddonfiled monopoly and Jackson Township NJ monopoly (home of Great Adventure). I don't know about the cost. Either they are so expensive that even with the advertising from local bussinesses they still cost like 12$ or they are cheap enough that w/ the advertising towns can give them awat for free.
I have a Denver version of Monopoly.
A NYC subway version really would be cool, IMHO. You've got an abundance of street names to choose from (Boardwalk could stay the same, as well as Park Place), and you could substitute IRT, BMT, IND, and who-knows-what for the railroads. One of the tokens could be an R-10, another a BMT standard, etc., etc. Food for thought.
And one of the tokens could be a... token.
You bet. And even then, you could have one dime-sized, one quarter-sized, and one half dollar-sized token. I picked up one of those Aqueduct Special tokens, and they were huge!
Monopoly already has one railroad that fits the Franklin shuttle: Short Line ! True?
The Railroads would be PRR, NYC, NHRR and either LIAR or PATH.
Nah ... if it's going to be a rapid transit version then: SIRT, NYCH, NY&A, CNJ or NJT, So. Bklyn Ry, H&M or PATH, LIRR, M-N, AND of course IRT, BMT & IND.
Mr t__:^)
All of the above. The name is MONOPOLY
avid
I have a copy of Oceanside LI monopoly & had a Hampton's version that I gave to a friend's son who lives out there.
Mr t__:^)
I would like some imput on this question. A friend of mine visited the trolley museum in Maine. He said they had a D.O.T. subway car that was around some time ago a car of the future. I beleive NY had this car for a while. Anyway he claims that this car was the model for what would be the R-44 R-46s down the road. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone know the length of this d.o.t. car? Thank you for any help.
That would be the State of the Art car (SOAC) there is extensive Info on these cars on ths site Heres a link:
CLICK HERE FOR SOAC INFO.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're talking about the SOAC. Click and read...
Well I've been having fun with my new radio scanner. As have yet I have not gone on any railfan trips with it, but I can pick up some stuff from my house. In addition to the rather infreaquent Conrail traffic on 161.860 I can clearly recieve SEPTA WAYNE/WIND. However I can not recieve the inbound communications TO SEPTA WAYNE/WIND so the conversations I pick up are a tad one sided. Some of the more exciting aspects of last nights evening rush were an inability to raise some train over the radio (at one point the SEPTA dispatcher was yelling at them to answer) and something wrong w/ switch #17. For about 5 minutes they were flipping it from normal to reverse and back.
Using my hand held tape recorder and dubbing cable I will record some of these tidbits and save them to my PC. I may even start embedding non-sequetur sound bytes in all of my Subtalk posts.
PS: Does anyone know a good WAV-> MP3 converter
PPS: CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE FREAQUENCIES!
Like many transit systems PATCO has a "bring your bike on selcted trains" policy. Well 2 days ago I saw a moron single handedly put this policy in doubt. Some older guy, after getting off the train with his bike, proceeded to RIDE THE BIKE ALONG THE PLATFORM to reach the handicapped elevator. My train operator went nut and started to yellt, but the idiot just ignored him. Once we were above ground the TO called in on the radio for the PATCO police to try and stop the guy as he came out of the elevator, but I had the feeling that they would be too late.
As of 11:00 yesterday (Thursday), it was anticipated that the first revenue run of the R142 will be the 0706 White Plains - Flatbush on Monday July 10. For those of you trying to meet, be aware that because of the supplement schedule in effect, the 0706 really leaves at 0702, if everything is running in place.
Here comes a train - overpacked before it leaves terminal !!!!
Well I live on this line, so maybe I'll attempt to grab it sometime during the day.
-Stef
Stef,
Be on the Look out this weekend for the R142A making its way from E 180 St to Westchester Yard.
My eyes and ears are open, friend. Out of curiosity, how many Kawasaki are currently on the property? Trevor? I believe there's more than the initial 10 delivered.....
-Stef
What is the running time to 86th Street?
#2 dosent stop there
From Pelham Bay to 86St is about 30 -32 minutes if there are no problems along the line.
Oops. I thought it was a #5. My mistake.
Also as of 12:30PM today Friday July 7th I was told the First R142A will also start rolling Monday July 10th. The First run will be the 8:08AM out of Pelham Bay which would of been my run. However I do not work on Monday's so there will be someone else in place of me, But I will be there Tuesday to start my day with the R 142A if there are no problems.
To all R 142 and R 142A Buffs Enjoy!
RTD has begun running full schedules along the Southwest Corridor in anticipation of Opening Day next Friday. Trains no longer layup just south of the Broadway station; instead, they keep on going all the way to Mineral Ave. minus passengers. I saw two northbound trains along Santa Fe Drive yesterday. From what I could see, they were stopping at the new stations, but the operators kept the doors closed. Their signs said, "Not in Service" while running south of Broadway, but as they approached that station, the operator would set the signs to 18th St. or 30th Ave. depending on where they were headed.
I took a light rail train downtown from Broadway on Tuesday, and noticed a few changes. The original LRVs have been fitted with new analog speedometers which still read up to 65 mph, and new recordings have been made for station announcements which feature a woman's voice. Well, there was a woman's voice on the northbound run, anyway. The newest LRVs (118-131) are in service; the train I took back to Broadway consisted of 103 leading 130. On the northbound trip, 106 was in front of 104. Last week, I saw one train with newcomers 129 and 122. Hey, Wayne, this carspotting can be contagious!:-)
There will be a sneak preview this Sunday, which I obtained a pass to attend. I can't wait; the AVERAGE distance between stops on the new extension is right around 1 3/4 miles, while the Littleton and Mineral Ave stations are over 2 miles apart. Those trains will have a chance to really get unlimbered. The R-10s would have had a field day on this line. So would have the R-46s as delivered.
Steve,
As I was on the way to Downtown for an appointment, I noticed all the activities along SW Line next to Santa Fe Drive. As the train sped past me while I was driving about 50 MPH speed limit, the train was going little faster, when I catched up with the train, my speedo shows 60 MPH.
I asked my supervisor if I can have a day off for next weekend but unfortunately, he refused so I guess I have to wait till my next day off which is Monday, July 17th.
Please let us know how it went on the first day as you are planning to ride on that day.
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver (Lakewood), ColorFUL Colorado!
I got a sneak preview yesterday, taking a train from Mineral Ave. to Evans Ave. and back. Coincidentally, the northbound train was the same one I took last Tuesday, 103-130. They are so smooth and quiet you don't even realize you're doing 55 mph. I had the feeling those trains were just itching to go faster.
I did see 131 coupled to 121 yesterday. 131 is currently the highest numbered car in the fleet. One thing I did notice was that the newer cars (112-131) don't have opening panels on their side windows. Only the original 11 cars do.
Oh and Wayne, you'll be pleased to note that the drop sash windows on the cab doors extend downwards as far as the railfan windows on the slant R-40s. (I'm not sure if I posted this tidbit earlier. I had a nice post on yesterday's railfanning all written up and it wouldn't post. Sorry if this is redundant.)
Meanwhile, the anticipation is growing. There is a "Littleton Welsomes Light Rail" banner above West Main St. just north of the Littleton/Downtown station, and the old train depot will serve as a station house, complete with espresso bar and waiting area.
The opening ceremony is at 11:30 this Friday at Mineral Ave. I will be there.
Hi, I'm not positive this is exactly what you're looking for on this message board but bear with me. Ever since I moved to NYC a few years ago I've been interested in making a model of the subway system that would help me understand the (literal and figurative) ins and outs and ups and downs of it. I found an interesting website about making your own model but I'm afraid I'm not that talented. I'm looking for something more along the lines of "The Visible Man" and all those educational children's models. Has anyone ever seen anything like that? I'm perfectly content with a limited one (i.e. only Manhattan or something) but I think putting it together would be a pretty cool past-time. If you have any advice or comments, please e-mail me! (act16@columbia.edu)
Thanks,
Alison
Alison,
Do you mean like a three dimensional track map model? The Transit Museum had one of these, once upon a time. It's gone now. I don't recall exactly what happened to it but it's been discussed here before.
We have track maps on this site that would help you with the layout. The overs and unders are pretty accurate. But I think once you look at the maps you may not feel the need to build it out!
Welcome to SubTalk.
-Dave
Just a passing thought, Dave, but you might like to know. The IRT High-v's and Low-V's, Manhattan el cars, BMT q's and BU's, Rl4-26, and Chicago 4000's are alive and well in S gage and running in my basement in Cow Country!
Hey Ed, talking about the trains in your basement. Did you hear about the Hillbilly couple who came to NYC for the first time? They were staying at a hotel, the husband decided to go out for a few drinks. Well he got plastered and while walking back fell down a flight of stairs on the sidewalk. When he got back he told his wife, "I was just in some guy's basement and boy, does he have some set of trains!!!
I think I read that in a magazine back in the 50's..might have been the Pennsy employee mag. But it is indeed a cute one and thanks for sharing.
Sounds great! Please take some sanpshots with your "brownie" and send them to Pat Villani at www.monmouth.com/~patv. I'm sure Pat will be happy to post them on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" website! We need more pictures of others modeling efforts on this site, particularly if you have some subway running. Please share your work!
I'm not sure what you are looking for but several months ago we discussed some commercial O gauge models. I'm currently building an O gauge Subway system and it's quite a daunting task. To date, I've completed the trackwork that will be under the city. It contains around 100' of track (over 3/4 scale mile) and will be covered by the town. The streets will be plexiglass so you can see the trains running under the city. There will also be open-cut and elevated segments, too. The track-plan and operation are being designed to simulate actual operation (where possible). If this is the type of information you are looking for, let me know.
Just as a matter of curiosity, do you have any idea what scale is "O" guage and how many square feet (or square miles) would be covered by a complete "O" guage rendering of the NYC Subway. I.e., what is the smallest rectangle in which it would fit? Now, that would be a train set.
If the Subway is 722 miles long, then an "O" Scale model would contain a lttle over 15 miles of track. However, a modeler would not attempt to "Do" the whole system. He would model a single line, "editing out" the less interesting parts of the line in a process called selective compression, or construct a composite line based on the most interesting features of the whole system and produce a fascinating rendition using only a couple scale miles of track.
When deciding to do my railroad, I first considered a line (Not practical in any gauge) and then a segment of a line. The second didn't appeal to me because to be faithful to the prototype would mean that only one or two of the interesting operational features would be captured. Instead, I opted to create my own design. The design would encompass as many interesting operational features as i could include within the allotted space. I've also tried to maintain prototypical operation while also keeping in mind that I want some continuous running to entertain th grandkids. Keep in mind that, after all, there are toys and they should, first and foremost, entertain.
I decided something similar. Since space restrictions wouldn't allow me to create a realistic prototype of an actual segment of any of the lines, I ran the trains from room to room (just above the door thresholds) and created stations that are replicas of NY subway stations, with the names "Living Room" and "Dining Room" on the mosaics.
If someone has plans for a subway line in N or HO gauge, I might suggest that a shortline of the NYCT system such as the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (original or new version) is something that is feasible to do with limited space.
One of the things I have yet to complete is a combo-freight & subway layout. My plans are to do a 'fictional' South Brooklyn Railway (running on street grade) and contect it with a short subway/El line (making use of my MTH R-42's).
Doug aka BMTman
My layout has an S gage el with surface portions at either end and my first generation equipment. The basic surface line is HO with freight with some long distance passenger, mostly diesel power but some steam and a GGl. The purists would howl,there might be a modern piggyback powered by a C44-9W or SD40's, with a Steam or GGl powered passenger train, and wooden el cars all running at the same time. But I enjoy seeing the things I like represented; as the saying goes "ees joor railroad". By the way once upon a time there was weekend service Franklin(shuttle) to Coney Island over the Brighton. There's easy modeling,no subway per se, a little el at either end and much of the running in cut or embankment so no complex work. Even if they are R42's which weren't around when that service ran...ees joor railroad.
That 722 mile figure is more bragging than fact. That includes double, and 3 and 4 track mains. The actual line mileage should be more like 230-240 miles, unless I've forgotten to add the Rockaways.
I was referring to what it would take to model every inch of the system
I have no idea how large a layout it would be but since O scale is 1:43, divide the area of NYC by 43 and you have a rough idea. To put in into perspective, the segment of my subway system that will run under the city encompasses two return loops and the yard lead. That's roughly 100 feet of track. Those 3 segments of my track-plan cover a 14 X 5 foot segment of the entire layout.
Thanks for the info. I'll have to get out my maps and do some measuring, but it sounds like I would need a couple of square miles of basement floor, even leaving out SI.
"O" Scale is 1/48, not 1/43
This sounds great! When I was in Tokyo, Japan recently on business, I visited the Tokyo Subway Museum. They have a large diorama that uses the plexiglass street treatment for modeling a subway (in HO scale) and it looks very good. Please take some photos of your work and submit them to Pat Villani at www.monmouth.com/~patv. Pat will be happy to post them on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" web site! Good luck!
If you are building a working model (with operating trains), you will
find some interesting resources at:
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
I'm planning to model a portion of the system in Brooklyn in N scale (with operating R32s), but I haven't yet decided on a location. I'm
thinking about the transition between the IND/Culver line near
Ditmas Ave. or between the Carroll and the Smith/9th bridge (both
would be ca. 1970-something). Either way, the below-ground portion would remain hidden so that the train can change direction (without being too obvious). I'm not sure how the trains would return
on the elevated portion. I've also thought about modeling a two-track station (with the trains disappearing into the tunnels for the return trip) with the station exposed (or behind plexiglass) and scenery above the tunnels. I like the 15 Street/Prospect Park station for this idea. There are all sorts of possibilities.
David
as for models there are some really nice powered brass ones of low-vs and yes, everyone's favorite, slantR40s in HO scale. I just saw the ad in "Model railroader" like last month
MTS imports will be selling the R-40 slants; unfortunately, no price has been set yet. I would imagine that the nickel-plated brass, two-car set will cost many hundreds of dollars.
Seems I've recently or within the last year seen ads for some low-cost IRT Redbird types--think they were (not actually redbirds) R21/22 types but they may have included the R26/28/29/33 types. Something under $50 per car for non-powered. See hobby mag's. You can convert an R21/22 to an R17 by changing the end door windows and adding the little emergency window release. Or to a redbird married pair type again by changing the storm door windows.
Slant R-40's in HO already available???? Not likely -- at least not yet. I have been to the MTS website the other day, where the slant R-40's are being CONSIDERED as a future nickel-plated brass set of two-car units (like the prototypes) that will be made in a limited supply of 100 sets. This project is not likely to even be available until sometime in 2001.
If you have the name and address of a company (or person) who is ALREADY offering slant R-40 cars for model railroading, please post the info here.
Doug aka BMTman
I want to do a model of the LIRR, perhaps some obscure branch that's surrounded by trees. Where can I find models of M-1s, C-3s, D?30ACs, or maybe even MP-75 or MP-73s? It'd be nice to see the last 2 move under their own power, even if its on a model.
try way out on east long island out my montauk, where the midday service is only like every 3 hours.... or for something closer you might try the far rockaway branch. better yet, model the rockaway branch circa 1925-1930... now THAT would be cool (might even get into Model Railroader)
Depends on the scale that you want to model in. Willis Hobbies in Mineola has Metro-North M-1s. They also have K-Line GP-38 and K-line 2900 series coaches in O scale.
M-1's: Imperial Hobby Productions down in PA supposedly makes 'em
DE30AC's & C-3's: Lotsa Luck
MP75's? A company by the name of Funaro & Camerlengo made 'em, but they were poor quality resin kits. They crumble if you bump 'em. And they weren't powered.
MP72's (NOT MP73's) were supposedly going to be made by Images replicas but they did not release them.
How about modeling the very interesting LIRR Bay Ridge branch. You could find a challenge in modeling such details as discarded tires, loose railroad ties, wrecked autos, homeless shanties and rotting garbage on the line in HO or O gauge. Let us know how you progress...
Doug aka BMTman
Discarded tires - I can cut parts off rubber tubing.
Homeless shantys - Toothpick houses.
Loose (missing) railroad ties - I use thirdhand track older than I am, no problem there.
I'll probably do something in NYC, if not Bay Ridge than the Lower Montauk or Main Line (From Hunterspoint), provided I find the rolling stock...
The Bay Ridge line has freight cars pulled mainly by GP-38's (in New York & Atlantic Railway color scheme) if you're interested.
[I want to do a model of the LIRR, perhaps some obscure branch that's surrounded by trees.]
Henry, that's why I recommended the Bay Ridge branch. First, when it comes to obsurity in an LIRR branch, you can't find one more obscure. And second, it has more trees per square foot than most other lines. I can attest that it literally runs through a jungle in the Parkville section of Brooklyn! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Seems that my enthusiasm for the progress of the Air Train system has been tempered somewhat by the news of major problems with the Newark Airport Monorail. According to news reports, cracks and premature corrosion have led to an expected 7 month shut-down of the 4 year-old system. The PA estimates the repairs will cost $25 million. Film at 11.
Too much water in the concrete???
The contractor is eating the cost of the repairs. I don't know if it is just some repairs cost he is paying or the whole ammount.
Complete shut down of the system, with buses to replace service for the full 7 months.
Also a lot of work on the parking lots at the same time. Term B parking lot will be halfed in size as they work on it. I hear.
[The contractor is eating the cost of the repairs. I don't know if it is just some repairs cost he is paying or the whole ammount.]
AdTranz supposedly will pay the entire cost. But AFAIK, it hasn't yet been settled whether they'll pick up the tab for the substitute bus service, extra passenger assistance employees, etc.
Let's be fair. It costs something to run the monorail when it's running. The contractor should get a credit for the savings of not running the monorail, to be applied against the cost of the substitute bus operation.
When I arrived at Park Street this afternoon, the Green Line was a mess. I asked an operator what the problem was, and he said, "One of those new trolleys came off the track at Kenmore." I asked him if he knew the car number; he didn't, but said it was a Type-8. No further details are available at this time... have any of my fellow Boston SubTalkers heard anything else?
I haven't heard anything yet, but I'll be going through that section of subway in about half an hour. I'll be sure to post a message to SubTalk if I notice any unusual weirdness.
-- David
Boston, MA
I just got home from work, where my route takes me on the Green Line between Park Street and Washington Square on the C branch. I didn't see any derailed trains, dismembered bodies or other wreckage, but I noticed a couple things that indicated there had been a derailment:
1) The emergency car that normally sits on a layup track just outbound of the Boylston stop was nowhere to be seen.
2) Just before going across the switch at Kenmore (going outbound), we stopped and waited for an unusually long period.
3) We crawled over the switch at a snail's pace, and it seemed like an unusually rough ride.
4) There were several MBTA personnel standing in the tunnel next to the switch as we went over.
Once we got into the station at Kenmore, we continued as normal.
On an unrelated note, my Red Line train was stopped between Park Street and Charles/MGH (going outbound) for what seemed like 10-15 minutes during my morning commute today. Apparently there was a train ahead of us at Charles/MGH that was experiencing some difficulties.
Also, while we're on the subject of the Green Line, the past few weekends the B branch has been shut down while crews improve the grade crossings. Free shuttle busses are running along the route in the meantime. My observation: The shuttle busses seem to be running much faster and more frequently than the trolleys they're replacing. What's wrong with this picture??
That's my report... Maybe I'll walk down to Cleveland Circle to see if I can find any Type-8 trolleys that look damaged. I guess the million-dollar question would be: Does the Type-8 have some grevious defect that caused the derailment, or was this particular Type-8 the hapless victim of a defective switch or track? Stay tuned...
-- David
Boston, MA
"The shuttle buses running faster and more frequent than the trollies"
I wish I could say the same about the Newark Subway substitute bus - I absolutely hate that damn thing and I avoid it at all costs. If I do ride it, I cringe my teeth, close my eyes, and dive. It will never fail to put me in a foul mood. The running time is twice as long as the subway, the headways are twice as long as the subway, and it is overall a miserable ride. Every time I take it, I miss my bus connection at Franklin Ave. I think the worse part is being aware that I'm wasting my time on a bus when the subway could get me there much faster. In addition, they mostly use 1994 Flxibles on the subway bus (from Big Tree Garage), which are nice buses, but are sometimes agonizingly slow.
In today's (Friday 7/7/00) NY Times, reporter Alan Feuer describes Saturday's Subway Series:
"It's a subway series -- you gotta take the train," Tom Milan was saying with such an adamant certainty that his buddies at the bar just had to disagree.
"No, you don't," said one of them, Jerry Beyrer, putting his beer momentarily aside. "You don't take the train at all. You get a nylon jacket, print 'security' in orange on the back and you sneak on the team bus. That's what you do."
Manny Feliu, sitting next to Mr. Beyrer at the Yankee Tavern on Wednesday night, saw it even differently. "You stay at home," he said, swirling his gin with quiet authority. "You click the remote from station to station, then you relax. Trust me, it's the quickest trip you'll ever take."
The main article continues at:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/sports/baseball/070700bbo-subway-series.html
Bombardier Train just passed through southbound at Jackson Av at 10:25PM. Off to Flatbush it goes!!!!
-Stef
Or maybe Livonia yard.... There is no yard at Flatbush...
Ill be on the lookout from my window........
3TM
No, no. It's going to do a round trip run and head back to the Bronx.
-Stef
The train has just returned northbound as of 12:32AM, heading home.
-Stef
The train passed through northbound this evening at 7:52PM. No protection train!!!!
-Stef
They where running the R 142A from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge with no protection train.
It looks like there ready to roll come Monday.
That's great. The future has arrived. Now if we don't have an R-44/46 fiasco, I think we'll be alright.....
-Stef
say dave... i heard on the grapevine, that they are providing train operators on the first runs with the new equipment, canisters of railfan spray repellant, to keep the railfans from swarming around the cab door..
They are handing them out at Brooklyn Bridge in case anyone trys to stay on the train.
You mean I can't ride around the loop in a sleek train of stainless steel cars? Gosh darn it, I'm disappointed. I hate railfan repellent....
-Stef
Okay, I'm going to try to put a link into my message, just to see if I've got the HTML right:
See
Back to the drawing board ...
You forgot to close the quotes on the href
You forgot to use the preview function so you can do all of your testing without adding extra messages to the board.
Pigs;
Can you test a link in the preview mode, or will it just show you how the link will look in the posted message?
Tom
Good question. Just tried it. The link works from the preview page (or not, if you mess up the way I did on the first try).
The message looks exactly like it would if it was posted and was being viewed. Except that there are (obviously) no responses, no box for posting one and no header with logo and links (not to be confused with the location bar above it). In addition, there is a button for posting.
The posting successful message strips the posting information (Posted by handle on Sat Jul 8 15:43:59 2000, in response to...) and the subject headline, along with adding a link to return to the index.
I think you mean: See this link for a good laugh.
KMA, there was trouble with your link, try it THIS WAY
Silly me. I just assumed that when I had tinkered enough to get it to appear, it would work. I bow to the master.
Okay, I think I've got it to work:
See this link for a good laugh.
I still can't figure out whether the linked page is a joke or is meant to be taken seriously.
John Stossel, on Friday's 20/20, hacked away at LA's subway system, citing its underuse and calling it a waste of time. What he didn't do was slam Angelenos for continuing to choke highways and poison the air with their cars.
Can nothing break the USA's love affair with the automobile? The networks aren't doing anything about it. I wonder how many automotive sponsors 20/20 has...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm an ex-New Yorker who lives in Los Angeles, so I can see both sides of the story.
There are those people who live in Los Angeles who would not use a subway for any reason, even if it took them door-to-door each day. As a person who loves subways (when I go back to New York, I rarely use much else to get around, other than my feet) I would love to be able to leave my car at home and use mass transit. Unfortunately, for many people, myself included, there are few alternatives other than the use of a car.
Los Angeles is not laid out the way New York is. In New York, the vast majority of people work in Midtown or Lower Manhattan; in Los Angeles, only a small portion of the population works downtown. Los Angeles is a city that, in reality, has no true "center" where people go to work. Additionally, the city is spread out over a much larger area, with a lower population density per square mile than New York City.
I do not live, much less work, anywhere near either the Red Line (the subway) or the Blue or Green Lines (light rail). Getting to work via mass transit, for me, would consist of a a half-mile walk to a bus, a 15 minute wait, a 30 minute ride, and another small walk. The trip by car takes me five minutes. I used to live in the San Fernando Valley and commuted to West L.A.. After a car accident, I was able to get to work a few times by taking three busses over a two-hour period, as opposed to a 45 minute drive.
The Los Angeles Red Line is the most expensive subway line ever built. Being in Earthquake country makes construction costs that much more expensive. One proposed extension of the Red Line was cancelled because it would have passed through a vast area of methane gas pockets Near the La Brea Tar Pits. And expenditures on subways are controversial, because they siphon money away from other transit projects (bus lines that serve the poorer neighborhoods) and other crumbling portions of the city's infrastructure (which was made worse by the 1994 quake).
New York City has been trying to build a Second Avenue Subway for decades without much success. In the case of that line, the targeted passengers, and the usefulness of the line are clearly defined. In Los Angeles, nothing is a clear-cut.
I actually used the Red Line when I was on jury duty in Downtown Los Angeles. The trains were eerily empty.
As I said earlier, I would love to use a subway to get to work. Obviously, Mr. Walsh, you would love me to give up my car. If you can figure out how to fund a workable system, all power to you. You didn't state where you live; before you advocate that people should "slam" us, I would suggest you try living in this city for a while and experience the problems first-hand.
>>>There are those people who live in Los Angeles who would not use a subway for any reason,
even if it took them door-to-door each day.<<
That's an unfortunate mindset.
>>>Getting to work via mass transit, for me, would consist of a a half-mile
walk to a bus, a 15 minute wait, a 30 minute ride, and another small walk. <<<
Well...is that so bad? I once lived in Brooklyn and worked in Port Washington, a North Shore community abt 20 miles away. I took two subways and the LIRR. I didn't much mind. Lots of people in NYC walk, then take a train and a bus to work. In all weather, too.
>>>Obviously, Mr. Walsh, you would
love me to give up my car. <<<
Well, no, Mr. Platform, I didn't say that. I'm objecting to the apparent intransigence on the part of Angelenos, and for a more generalized view, most of America, to forgo their autos for something as simple as getting a loaf of bread and a carton of milk.
We've constructed a society that has erected vast suburban communities without sidewalks, with shopping malls every few miles, and we've conditioned people that their personal vehicles have to be used to get them EVERYWHERE. Frankly, I think it's a sick way of doing things.
The problem is no less acute in NYC, which hasone of the world's most extensive networks of public transportation. Take a walk through midtown someday. The streets are clogged with trucks, cars, cabs, buses, none of them moving, and all of them leaning on their horns because they believe that making noise will make the guy ahead of them move.
"Moving", there's gotta be a better way of doing things. I don't have the answer, but I believe, unlike John stossel, that public transport has to be a part of it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sad to say the same mentality prevails even in the boondocks. Nobody, or few anyway, walks. I do, or ride my bike. Doesn't matter if its only a few blocks. My wife drove my l9 year old stepson to his first day on a new job the other morning THREE BLOCKS FROM HERE. pLEASE.
Heck the dang subway train is longer than that!
Elias
The problem with Los Angeles and mass transit is compounded by the topography, which forces the suburban sprawl to work its way in and around the mountains which divide the main Los Angeles basin from the San Fernando Valley, with the fault lines in and around those areas adding to the cost.
Thanks to decisions made a half-century ago, the desire for single family homes over apartments/condos or co-ops, the mountains that limit housing construction to only certain areas (unless you have enough money to afford to build up some winding canyon road, giving you the chance to either be burshfired or mudslid out of your dreamhouse in the future), a heavy rail system built anywhere in L.A. never can serve a dense enough population base at its outer end, since the city and its suburbs just kept spreading out, and once you have to put them in their cars to get to the subway station, odds are they'll keep going all the way into work.
Light rail and/or a commuter rail system would be more effective -- when the Northridge quake hit and knocked out I-5 and Calif. 14 to Santa Clarita and the Palmdale/Lancaster area, state officials got commuter rail service up and running in one week, after previously saying it would take years to finish. The system's still in operation, even with the I-5 interchange back up and running, and since the line also handles freight train service, it's got more of a revenue stream than a subway-only line into the same area would have.
[[and once you have to put them in their cars to get to the subway station, odds are they'll keep going all the way into work. ]]
Well, check out the parking lots by the LIRR some morning.
Heck, I always drove to the station to catch a train.
(And one morning as we left the station, the conductor was kind enough to tell me that I had left my headlights on.)
Of course, as we all know, New York *is* different.
I mean, where *could* you park a car.
And if you did find a place, why would you want to pay $200+ a month for parkings.
The economics of the thing makes the car largely non-viable in New York, combined with the fact that most New Yorkers do not even own a car.
I would praise the day that Manhattan was closed to cars south of the park. Let the trucks ride on the streets and the taxis and busses ride on the avenues.
Now in LA? Gee, I'm glad I have never lived there, so I haven't a clue as to what to do there.
Elias
"I would praise the day that Manhattan was closed to cars south of the park. Let the trucks ride on the streets and the taxis and busses ride on the avenues."
Then you would praise the day New York ceases to be a viable city.
Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there, and less of them would have cars.
I do believe that New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan. I lived for many years in Manhattan and in Brooklyn, and the idea of owning a car never entered my mind. If I would take a vacation upstate, I would rent a car.
I have heard that in Tokyo, you had to prove that you owned a parking place before you could license a car in parts of the city.
Elias
>>> Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there <<<
Elias;
Are you serious? Unless New York has changed a great deal since I lived on East 34th Street in the 40's there are many, many people living south of Central Park in Manhattan. Are these people who just don't count to you?
As far as not owning a car, if that is your individual preference, that's fine, I have lived in New York with and without a car, and even in a city with great public transportation like New York, having a car adds to your personal freedom.
>>> New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan <<<
Although it might make sense to bar private automobiles of non-residents from certain areas of lower Manhattan, commercial vehicles such as taxis would be necessary.
Tom
(Although it might make sense to bar private automobiles of non-residents from certain areas of lower Manhattan, commercial vehicles such as taxis would be necessary. )
While riding uptown around noon in a city car, I was promoting the vitues of congestion pricing to reduce traffic in the CBD to a couple of higher level planners. We were going to retrive NYC's exhibits from the American Planning Association conference -- that is why we did not take the subway. The other planners pointed out that ALMOST EVERY vehicle on the street was a truck making deliveries, a service company van, a taxi, a bus, or an emergency vehicles. We crawled for blocks in heavy traffic a saw very few private cars.
Can't do much about that. Messengers are already riding bicycles in Manhattan.
"I do believe that New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan."
First, how would people use all of those bridges and tunnels? Do you suggest that all people from Long Island go through Staten Island to get to New Jersey? Even if they're going to North Jersey? Even if the SIE and roads approaching the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano don't have the capacity to take that new traffic.
In addition, there are many situations where one has to take a private vehicle into Manhattan, such as official business, transporting items (I absolutely detest when people take large boxes onto the subway) and moving those who have a hard time standing for long periods of time or climbing long flights of stairs.
Not to mention transit capacity. The subways cannot take NEARLY all of the people who drive to Manhattan. In that case, large numbers of people would just stop going there, businesses would fail, and there go the neighborhoods.
First, how would people use all of those bridges and tunnels? Do you suggest that all people from Long Island go through Staten Island to get to New Jersey? Even if they're going to North Jersey? Even if the SIE and roads approaching the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano
don't have the capacity to take that new traffic.
These are not going to Manhattan, they are going thru Manhattan, and would benefit from corridors that were kept free of other kinds of traffic.
In addition, there are many situations where one has to take a private vehicle into Manhattan, such as official business, transporting items (I absolutely detest when people take large boxes onto the subway) and moving those who have a hard time standing for long periods of time or climbing long flights of stairs.
Indeed, there would always need to be exceptions, no plan is perfect, or even desireable from many points of view, but wouldn't it be nice to get some of that traffic out of the city. Even if it is only a day dream.
Oh that it would be as easy to build good transit lines as it is to draw them on them map.
Elias
"These are not going to Manhattan, they are going thru Manhattan, and would benefit from corridors that were kept free of other kinds of traffic."
How would you enforce the difference? Do you want to build the Lower Manhattan and Mid-Manhattan Expressways?
[Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there, and less of them would have cars.
I do believe that New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan. I lived for many years in Manhattan and in Brooklyn, and the idea of owning a car never
entered my mind. If I would take a vacation upstate, I would rent a car.]
You are partly correct. Private cars really aren't necessary in most of Manhattan, at least in most cases. Residents and workers *could* get by without them.
BUT - the fact that people *can* get by without cars doesn't mean that they *want* to. Ban or severely restrict driving, and I'll bet you dollars for doughnuts that we'd soon see a corporate exodus that would put the Sunbelt migration of the early 1990's to shame.
(Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there)
I guess all the apartment houses on the Lower East Side, Chelsea, Kips Bay, Greenwich Village, Stuyvesant Town etc..must be figments of my imagination.
..........somewhat a response to all of the threads etc... I agree with 75 % of the BUS RIDERS UNION here in los angeles ........
however the red line should have been the same type of rail used for the green & blue types with the green line
going straight into the airport like washington dc & marta in atlanta !!!
then the green could have gone to the beach ???...........the way the red line was put in & the type of system it was
& the over spending at the stations too fancy instead of ""just good stations" they "" missed the boat"" on everything
except the blue line...........lots of luck with the pasadena blue line at grade BLAG ......check out the webpages there
with the name < pasadena blue line > click on all of them to get the real confusion !!!!!!.
Salaam;
Now that you have read the posts on HTML, why don't you give us a link to the web sites you mention?
Tom
it is not too hard go to a major search emgine like yahoo enter .....Pasadena Blue Line ........
& they all should be right there !!!!!!
>>> it is not too hard go to a major search emgine like yahoo enter .....Pasadena Blue Line ........ & they all should be right there !!!!!! <<<
Salaam;
Of course anyone can search the web for all the sites that mention the Pasadena Blue Line, but a more direct link would be helpful to point out the article you are referring to and avoid the waste of time going through all the web pages. (Alta Vista registered 94 hits). Your original post did not even mention using Yahoo.
Tom
I found all of the PASADENA BLUE LINE sites easy under all major search engines I still dont know how
to make a macintosh g3 do a direct link inside this message box here....
& how do you highlight it so you can click it on ?? So instead i showed everybody where to go !!
& as best I could sorrry .......
??
So, include the address, that's not brain surgery and you are certainly capable of it. You can type after all.
This was not meant as a malicious message.
Just because they have a rule like that in Tokyo, does that mean its reasonable? After all you're talking about a country (Japan) that required Kamikazi pilots to wear helmets!!!
[Light rail and/or a commuter rail system would be more effective]
Indeed, Metrolink (the commuter rail system) has been more successful than most people would have expected. It's often been noted that a very low percentage of the jobs in the Los Angeles metro area are located in Downtown. While that's true, the point that's overlooked is that the metro area is so huge (c.15 million) that even a low percentage still translates into a lot of Downtown jobs in absolute numbers. Enough, in fact, to make commuter rail workable.
Kevin makes a good point there.
A friend of mine lived in the Hollywood Hills. area of North Los Angeles. The trek by car was one of going up a dirt-hill road (could've really used a Jeep or some other four-wheel-drive vehicle). His house was only about 1/2 mile up this road (it was near the famed Mulholand Drive), but there were homes way up there in the hills -- I'm talking about a mile's worth of driving up constantly winding (and barely paved) roads. This area is obviously the place where the rich and famous -- or both -- go to get away from the rest of civilization.
The way LA is laid out and it's precarious geological foundation makes it an unlikely candidate for serious rapid transit development.
Doug aka BMTman
Kevin;
You find it unfortunate that some people will not give up private transportation for public transport at any price. I find it not unusual at all.
I don't think you will ever bump into Donald Trump riding on the subway unless it is as a publicity stunt. If I could afford to travel everywhere in a chauffeur driven limousine, I would also.
The closest I can come to a chauffeur driven limousine is to drive my own car, and this is my preferred way to travel. Although I do not have the same hangups about public transportation as John Rocker, if the cost is the same in time and money, I will take my private automobile every time. In fact I will pay a premium for the convenience and privacy of driving my own car, so to get me into public transportation, it must be significantly cheaper and/or faster than driving my own car.
Those conditions exist in NYC but do not (yet) exist in LA. I am able to find all day parking for a cost of $1.50 in downtown Los Angeles, and the travel time is comparable with the public transport system.
Until recently (and I am not sure it has changed) the building codes in Los Angeles required massive amounts of underground parking for any new office building constructed. Large parking capacity encourages private automobile use. It is very difficult to get people to move from their cars to public transportation once there is already dependence on the automobile.
Los Angeles has tried some things to reduce traffic. In about 1990, the county and city governments stopped providing free parking for employees. In negotiations with the unions involved they provided employees with an increase in pay equivalent to 70% of the newly imposed parking charge. The idea was to promote car pooling so that if two employees shared one parking space, they would actually get a small gain. The local government has also encouraged large downtown employers stop providing free parking and to subsidize employee's public commuting expense instead.
But the downtown area is still easy to drive through (compared to Manhattan) and most consumer activities can be found in outlying shopping centers, so those going to downtown Los Angeles on other than a commuting basis use their own cars rather than public transportation.
You cannot expect people to choose public transportation through some sense that it is the right thing to do. There must be a benefit shown to the individual.
Tom
I keep on reading these threads about the LA Subways. Are they talking about Louisiana or Lake Arrowhead???
Hey Paul, remember that episode??
[[Los Angeles is a city that, in reality, has no true "center" where
people go to work.]]
I was in LA twice. Once with a carload of sailors who went to Disneyland, and once by myself (back in the '60s.... I took the Santa Fe from San Diego to LA.
I got off the train and looked around.
And I asked the cab driver, "Where's the city?"
You gotta have a city before you can have a good subway.
I now lives in North Dakota... talk about an empty place... even the Interstate has no traffic on it.
Elias
Elias;
Los Angeles has grown since the 60's when the building height limit was 14 stories, but the growth has come after the automobile was the main mode of transportation.
In New York rapid transit replaced the horse and buggy or walking. The competition is tougher now.
Tom
(Los Angeles is a city that, in reality, has no true "center" where people go to work.)
Downtown Los Angeles is the fifth largest central business district in the U.S. and Canada -- and the only one with more than 200,000 employed that is primarily auto-oriented (hence the traffic). It only seems small relative to the massive greater LA area. It is bigger than Downtown Philly or Boston.
You must remember that Los Angeles is structured much differently than New York. New York City consists of five counties with a population of over seven million, situated in a larger "Tri-State Area"; Los Angeles is a city of three million that fits inside a vast jigsaw puzzle of a county that also includes populous cities such as Beverly Hills, Culver City, West Hollywood, Santa Monica, Inglewood, Pasadena, Glendale, and a half-dozen others. The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State area, and is further flanked by another densely-populated county to the south, Orange County.
So when someone wants a realistic evaluation of population density and traffic patterns, it makes much more sense to talk about Los Angeles County than the actual city of Los Angeles. Therefore, the size of the downtown area and the number of people working there is not surprising. However, the entire Los Angeles area suffers from the effects of poor long-range planning and zoning. Most of the population arrived here during and after World War II, and few could have anticipated its explosive growth. As a result, the area is plagued with a large number of "mini downtowns" that wreak havoc with commuters during rush hour. A mass transit sytem would have to connect these areas with the large residential areas in order to be truly effective.
When I was a kid in Junior High in the mid 60's a friend of mine who went to LA described it this way:
"Its like Hempstead, only bigger!!!"
Then it would be like Nassau County.
Phoenix is similar to Los Angeles except it has very little water and LA has a nearby ocean. I've been to both places. LA I can stand; It is Phoenix that I absolutely detest.
wayne
Wayne,
How is Scottsdale? (Outside Phoenix) My sister lives there and is trying to get us to go there.
....100% agreement with you & I would like to add that......IF we had left the PE & trolley system alone we would
have not been in the mess we are in today .......the villans oil companies diesel & gasoline engine companies & all non
rail transportation vehicle companies & a corrupt state county & local government that knew better !!!!!
"The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State area..."
As much as you like or have been led to believe, it certainly doesn't.
("The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State
area..."
As much as you like or have been led to believe, it certainly doesn't. )
This is enough to bore even me, but just to get the facts out:
LA City -- perhaps 3.5 million.
LA County -- 8 to 9 million. New York City -- 7.5 to 8.5 million.
LA CMSA -- 14 million. New York CMSA -- 20 million.
Will the LA Area surpass the NY area is size? Answer one: LA is already too spread out with long commutes, is hemmed in by the mountains, and is running out of land and water. It's growth will slow. Answer two -- if they build more transit, they can increase density as New York did, and build up rather than out.
I'm not sure I understand the logic of all this: 1) What leads you to believe that the population growth of Los Angeles will slow? What do you base this belief on? 2) Since Los Angeles is already overly spread out, and perhaps overpopulated, what is to be gained by "building up" and increasing the density? If one were to assume that by "building up", the outward growth would subsequently slow or reverse, I could see the point, but unfortunately, that has little to do with reality. Increasing density will only add more congestion and depletion of scarce resources.
(I'm not sure I understand the logic of all this)
I'm quoting two different predictions by two sets of predictors. I'm not sure which is right, but I suspect LA's growth will slow, and not exceed that of the NY area.
>>> Since Los Angeles is already overly spread out, and perhaps overpopulated, what is to be gained by "building up" and increasing the density? ... Increasing density will only add more congestion and depletion of scarce resources.
Elliot;
The building up with increasing density makes rapid transit more feasible. Look at the high rise apartments that have been built along Wilshire Boulevard near Westwood. They were not there twenty years ago. If high rise apartments like that were built all along Wilshire Boulevard, right to the ocean, it could support a Wilshire subway line.
This assumes that the Wilshire subway would go to somewhere these people wanted to go. That means a developed transit system, not one line. It is really a problem of timing. High density does not work without sufficient infrastructure, and until there is high density, no one wants to foot the cost of building the infrastructure.
Tom Bradley and the subway boosters were ahead of their time. To a certain extent they were looking at New York and Chicago and seeing rail rapid transit there, plus seeing cities all over the world building subways, and thinking we have to have a subway here to prove we are a world class city. As they looked forward they saw the day that freeways could no longer handle the traffic, and believed with the lead time necessary to build a subway and the rate of inflation it was proper to build the subway then. They didn't foresee the end of the cold war which killed much of the aerospace industry, caused the green line to flop, and forestalled the complete overcrowding of freeways those workers used, the rise of telecommuting, nor the malfeasance in building the Red Line which led to great cost overruns.
Tom
[You must remember that Los Angeles is structured much differently than New York. New York City consists of five counties with a population of over seven million, situated in a larger "Tri-State
Area"; Los Angeles is a city of three million that fits inside a vast jigsaw puzzle of a county that also includes populous cities such as Beverly Hills, Culver City, West Hollywood, Santa Monica, Inglewood, Pasadena, Glendale, and a half-dozen others. The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State area, and is further flanked by another densely-populated county to the south, Orange County.
So when someone wants a realistic evaluation of population density and traffic patterns, it makes much more sense to talk about Los Angeles County than the actual city of Los Angeles.]
You also have to include metropolitan areas. Los Angeles is a city of about four million, in a county of about nine million, in a metropolitan area of about 15 million. New York is a multi-borough(county) city of about eight million, in a metropolitan area of about 20 million.
"...with a lower population density per square mile than New York City"
Actually, the Los Angeles region is the densest in the United States. Even denser than the New York Region.
You may be right, Pigs, but it makes me scratch my head to figure out how that is possible. Los Angeles is a city where the single-family home reigns supreme. Additionally, Los Angeles has height and building size restrictions that you wouldn't find in New York; few apartment houses in Los Angeles are taller than two stories. Los Angeles also has wider streets and sidewalks, houses with large front and back lawns, and alleys between the streets.
One thing that could make the population density of L.A. appear bigger, and thus skew the statistics, is that L.A., in general, does not allow for mixed-use construction. Stores and other commercial buildings are not often found on the same streets as the dwellings.
The "suburbs" are similar in both cases.
I think the matter is explained by the fact that there's more empty space in the New York area.
As for cities as political entities, I'm sure that NY has a higher density, but center city statistics are meaningless. Some cities control their entire metro area, others control but a small piece of it.
Actually, I agree with you. Statistics are meaningless (or perhaps just misleading).
..But the heart of the matter is this: In the New York area, daily commutes are mainly pointed in the direction of Midtown and Lower Manhattan. Yes, there are some commercial centers in the other boroughs and in New Jersey, but the vast majority of workers gravitate towards Manhattan. In the Los Angeles area, I seriously doubt that a MAJORITY of morning commuters are heading towards Downtown Los Angeles.
Center city statistics are meaningless for regional comparisons, but no one is saying that we should build a subway from Morristown to Croton (OK, the RPA IS saying it, but that is another matter). The subway is in NYC, which is much denser than LA City of region.
Besides, it is the size and density of the DESTINATION that matters for rail transit, not the origin. You can always park and ride from home. Manhattan south of 60th St makes mass transit work.
I have also heard that Metropolitan LA is denser than Metropolitan New York, because the suburbs are denser in LA. LA is too low density for transit -- but too high density for autos. It is like Staten Island.
One more point -- what do people mean by Metropolitan, the PMSA or CMSA? People get them confused. If you are comparing the New York CMSA with the LA PMSA (LA County), you've got a bad comparison.
What do PMSA and CMSA stand for and what is the difference? What do the PMSA and CMSA for New York consist of? What about LA?
[What do PMSA and CMSA stand for and what is the difference? What do the PMSA and CMSA for New York consist of? What about LA?]
IIRC, PMSA = Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area, CMSA = Consolidated etc.
I don't know the technical definitions, but basically a PMSA consists of (1) the central city and (2) the closer-in suburbs. It may also include more distant suburbs that aren't themselves included within metropolitan areas of their own. For example, Nassau-Suffolk is not part of the NYC PMSA because it's a metro area of its own, but is within the CMSA. It's the CMSA that really matters, as it includes the entire commuter zone and, in effect, all areas within the central city's influence.
The Los Angeles CMSA includes the City of Los Angeles, the remainder of Los Angeles County, and Orange, Ventura, Riverside and San Bernardino counties*. As stated before, it has a total population of about 14 to 15 million.
The New York CMSA includes the five boroughs, and the following counties: Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland, Orange, Fairfield, New Haven, Hudson, Bergen, Essex, Morris, Passaic, Sussex, Warren, Hunterdon, Somerset, Mercer, Union, Middlesex, Monmouth, Ocean, Pike.** It's total population is about 20 million.
* = Riverside and San Bernardino counties are enormous in area, stretching something like 250 miles from Los Angeles. I don't know if the remote parts of these counties are within the CMSA, but either way they're not likely to have much effect on total population figures.
** = ISTR some proposals to add Sullivan, Ulster and Monroe counties to the NYC CMSA. If that happens, it won't be until the 2010 census.
"ISTR some proposals to add Sullivan, Ulster and Monroe..."
That is certainly a mistake! Monroe County is Rochester!
You must mean either Columbia, Delaware or Greene. Columbia is most likely.
"That is certainly a mistake! Monroe County is Rochester!"
Or East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania and that is in commuting distance.
Elias
Well, most Illinoisans seem to believe that Rochester and Buffalo are suburbs of NYC. (And Illinoisans have no excuse.)
["ISTR some proposals to add Sullivan, Ulster and Monroe [to the NYC CMSA]..."
That is certainly a mistake! Monroe County is Rochester!
You must mean either Columbia, Delaware or Greene. Columbia is most likely.]
Sorry, I should have been more clear - I meant Monroe County, Pennsylvania, which includes a good chunk of the Poconos. Look at the real estate ads in the Friday editions of the New York Post and you'll see why Monroe County would be a likely candidate.
You're right about Columbia County, I'm slightly surprised that it hasn't yet been included. Metro North's extension to Wasssic will make parts of Columbia County within feasible commuting distance.
In 1983 I moved from Long Island to North Dakota (a suburb of NYC only in my dreams) and my parents moved to Monroe County, Pennsylvaina. There are a fleet of daily commuter busses running from Scranton and Wilkes Barre PA to New York City. The ride is not all that long. And there is talk of restoring Rail service that far out again (Across the Lackawana Cut-off... if anyone has any hearsay on that one).
I am sorry if I offended anyone with my comment that no one really lives south of the park (in manhattan) [on another branch of this convoulted thread] I knew of the east side even as I posted my thoughts (there *is* a neighborhood that needs better service). Still, it was the central business district that I had in mind. I used to work on 34th street not far from 5th Ave, and a large limo would park near by, uniformed cheaufer at the wheel, apparently it was cheaper for someone to hire this man, than to pay for parking in this part of town.
Elias
[And there is talk of restoring Rail service that far out again (Across the Lackawana Cut-off... if anyone has any hearsay on that one).]
This is discussed by Lubos56 on June 24 in posts 72 and 73 on
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/newjerseypassengerrails
Bob
[And there is talk of restoring Rail service that far out again (Across the Lackawana Cut-off... if anyone has any hearsay on that one).]
This is discussed by Lubos56 on June 24 in posts 72 and 73 on
the NJ passenger rails message board.
Scranton Rail Service
Bob
(What do PMSA and CMSA stand for and what is the difference? What do the PMSA and CMSA for New York consist of? What about LA? )
This thread is getting even more boring.
Metropolitan areas are Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs). Unless they are really big, in which case they are Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Areas (CMSAs) which are divided into Primary Metropolitan Statistical Areas (PMSAs).
It is the CMSA which really is the NY Metro Area. It includes all of Long Island, the Hudson Valley up to Dutchess and Orange Counties, all of Northern New Jersey down to Mercer and Ocean Counties, and southwest Connecticut as far in as Litchfield and New Haven Counties.
The New York PMSA is political bullshit -- it consists of New York City and one-quarter of its suburbs (Westchester, Rockland, Putnam). Long Island wanted separate data, so it is the Nassau-Suffolk PMSA. Many other parts of the Metro area are in New Jersey and Connecticut, so ditto, they get their own PMSAs. Jersey City is the central city of the Jersey City PMSA, which includes Hudson County. Dutchess county and Orange County don't meet the commutation threshold for inclusion with NYC, but they are somewhat related to New York, so they are their own PMSAs, but in the CMSA.
In Los Angeles, LA County and Orange County are each their own PMSAs, and there are others besides. Riverside County is one. I'm not sure of the others off the top of my head. But the CMSA is metro LA as most of us would understand it.
The whole system is supposed to be revamped, but since there are political and funding formula implications, not much is expected to change. A geographer from Texas had argued that with less commuting to the central city, population densities and regional media markets are now a more relevant determinent of metropolitan and rural, and where one metropolis ends and the other begins. But they didn't go that way.
That just can't be true. LA is spread out over a huge area. The five boroughs along with nearby New Jersey comprise a relatively small area with a large population. And, when was John Stossel last on a subway?
Remember, driving from the north to south ends of Los Angeles County is about the same distance as going from New York to New Haven, and neighboring San Bernadino County is bigger than the state of New Jersey, so when you talk populations here, there's a big difference between city and county boundaries, unlike New York, where the reverse is true (one city made up of five counties).
Los Angeles County probably has the largest amount of developed land of any county in the U.S., but there's a lot of land in the county, period, and some of it up in the San Gabriels (and above the snow line in the winter months) is never going to be developed because it's too inaccessable to the areas where the jobs are located.
[And expenditures on subways are controversial, because they siphon money away from other transit projects (bus lines that serve the poorer neighborhoods) and other crumbling portions of the city's infrastructure (which was made worse by the 1994 quake).]
Los Angeles has that militant Bus Riders' Union (if I have its name correct) that's been mounting a campaign against subway expansion. It claims to oppose spending on subways for the reason you cite - more money for subways means less for buses. Yet I've heard that some people have doubts about its real motives.
Peter;
The Bus Riders' Union are not bus fans who prefer public transport over automobiles. They are the working poor who have no cars and depend on public transit. Their biggest gripe was not so much the building of the subway, which had its own budget, but the promotion and subsidization of commuter rail transportation from what they saw as the affluent suburbs at the expense of deferred maintenance for the bus fleet. They took this to federal court and got an order requiring the MTA to purchase new busses to improve bus service, which is still what the overwhelming majority of public transportation riders use in Los Angeles.
I am not aware of any hidden motives.
Tom
a recent LATimes piece profiled a classic bus route 5 runs direction of rush only weekdays. It brings nannys, maids, etc from the black and hispanic neighborhoods to the rich oceanside homes to tend the kids, houses. The LA MTA was quoted as unhappy with yje route because the buses are not as productive as they might be on other routes where they would be used back and forth all day. BUT, and this is exactly the Bus Riders' Union stance, this bus is a necessity for these workers who cannot simply move closer to their jobsites, whereas the commuter rail trains which serve wealthier workers who have chosen to live miles away sit idle in midday just as the buses but at a much higher cost. One way to graph all of this is $$ per rider by mode, and with very few exceptions buses are cheaper(much as I love trains!). The rail lines which are cost effective have sufficiently better throughput to justify the cost(transbay service for San Francisco for example)
(One way to graph all of this is $$ per rider by mode, and with very few exceptions buses are cheaper(much as I love trains!)
Not on a fair comparison basis, they ain't. The buses get their ROW paid for by tax dollars, not fares. Bus "stations" are also free along the sidewalk. Train stations raise the value of nearby property, and ought to be considered a taxpayer funded amenity.
Now just compare on an "auto-equivalent" basis -- the cost of buying, maintaining, operating, and insuring the vehicle, and collecting fares -- the stuff drivers pay for personally. In an area where transit is an attractive option, I think rail will pay.
Of course, if transit is basically a heavily subsidized welfare program for those too poor, too young, or too disabled to drive -- which is what it is in most of the country -- it doesn't make sense to set aside a ROW just for transit. Just run a bus, or a para-transit van, on the streets you already have.
But if the goal is to provide an alternative to the auto, and you've got land use to support it, I think rail pays. Perhaps LA's mistake was not going with a cheaper system to start in a smaller area -- ie. just the City of LA with light rail. Want to travel by transit...live there. If you've already got the tracks, and the union isn't raping you, I think commuter rail could work too.
Ah, yes what to account and what to ignore. Of course you are correct. OTOH one of my local gripes here in Oakland Ca is that BART by vacuuming up most of the capital AND operating funds has seriously damaged both SF MUNI and AC Transit. Each of them has a much lower cost per rider by the "official" calc's, but is starving for funds . Meanwhile BART is building the only airport link both dumber and more corrupt than airtrain.
As far as the goals of the Bus Riders' Union is concerned, this website has articles and links which make it pretty clear:
Bus Riders' Union Articles
Tom
According to LA MTA public statements, ridership has zoomed since the last piece of the Red Line opened--was 65k/day now 1120k/day. While I will not defend the exorbitant costs or the faulty workmanship(some earlier work had to be redone because it was not up to the bid/engineering specs), apparently it has found a market.
According to LA MTA public statements, ridership has zoomed since the last piece of the Red Line opened--was 65k/day now 120k/day. While I will not defend the exorbitant costs or the faulty workmanship(some earlier work had to be redone because it was not up to the bid/engineering specs), apparently it has found a market.
The line's extension just opened a few weeks ago. We'll have to see how well it does after the novelty of San Fernando Valley-to-Downtown L.A. rapid transit wears off
....dont forget how this nut ""STOSSEL" did not ride the BLUE LINE to see what a success it is ...!!!!!
also he ....""put down other light rail systems where they are working "" what the hell does this "" nut & idiot know"??
My comment on that idiot ""JOHN STOSSEL"" who has not a clue as to the average working american & especially
the poor underemployed unemployed & those who recieve federal state & or county public social services etc..........
Eveyone from the poor underpaid person to the one who has no home ""homeless"" against minimum wage etc..
Count on ""JOHN STOSSEL"" to get it wrong every time & he strikes out on many other issues as well.....
he belongs to a union but hates unions & makes millions & hates the working classes of people!!!!!! "JOHN STOSSEL"
can drop dead far as I am concerned !!!! now: if this idiot would do a BALANCED REPORT on los angeles etc...
why did he not ride the BLUE LINE which is a very good system tell the good bad & ugly of the los angeles rail
systems & why did he not ""go back" to the PE pacific electric railway system we once had here !!
For that "idiot" ""JOHN STOSSEL" to insist we continue the failed system of cars trucks & the BUS .................
to me he looks like a crazy madman & he is a very mean hatful person !!........ I dont like him at all !!
Well, Stossel is neither an idiot nor is he a madman, but he's wrong in trying to torpedo LA's subways before they even have a chance to gain a foothold.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right, Kevin. The piece could easily have been orchestrated by PR guys at GM, Ford or Chrysler!
The John Stossel 20/20 show was TOTALLY negative regarding rail transportation.
Granted, the line's ridership is not there. But that doesn't mean that it WON'T in the near future.
And certainly, if LA is to get people from behind the wheels of their cars some incentive plans would have to be implemented like how the NYCT has extra rides with certain MC card purchases, etc. Also, LA County has to get into an aggressive Ad campaign and push the advantages of riding their new subway line. Those are the types of things that could be done NOW to boost ridership on the Red Line.
And Stossel has too much time on his hands (or is just following the orders from the ABC Boardrooms) for focusing on a rapid transit line that hasn't been in service long enough for him to start critiquing it.
Doug aka BMTman
The thing about LA is, they are trying to go direct to capital intensive heavy rail without the land use to support it.
NYC was orignially based on walking, which meant more density than auto-oriented development. Then it got streetcars, and more density. Then it got Els, and more density. When the subways were built, there was enough density to support them. True, the subways were extended out to development areas, but they had a core of riders to support that development.
I think a set of grade-separated express busway lanes is the best bet for a spread out auto-oriented city. Buses can travel through the streets in less congested areas, then get up on the busways and go. If properly built, the busways could be upgraded to rail at a later date when ridership supports it.
For a humorous comentary on the origins of the current trainsportation mess in LA, rent a copy of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?".
[Can nothing break the USA's love affair with the automobile? The networks aren't doing anything about it. I wonder how many automotive sponsors 20/20 has...]
It has a lot more auto sponsors than transit sponsors, I can guarantee you.
Was John Stossell right? Although it is disturbing to rail fans, here is a long scholarly 1996 paper by the RPPI which supports him.
TEN TRANSIT MYTHS: Misperceptions About Rail Transit in Los Angeles and the Nation
Tom :-(
[Although it is disturbing to rail fans, here is a long scholarly 1996 paper by the RPPI which supports him.]
Ain't disturbing to this railfan as I don't think I will ever live or even visit Las Angeles and couldn't care less about its transit. (no offense Tom, Fred & Salaam!!!)
...officer the litle nut john stossell could have got the blue line right .....it is a success !!!!!!
I only saw the last two or three minutes of the piece as I was flipping through the channels, but I got the impression (like salaamallah said somewhere in this thread) that Stossel was slamming new rail transit in general, especially all the post-1970s light rail systems, and not just the Los Angeles system.
Every light rail system built so far has had significantly higher ridership than projected. Not just "showcase" systems like San Diego, Saint Louis, and Portland, but even systems not seen as particularly stellar, like Buffalo and Sacramento. Nevertheless, Stossel was portraying any investment in light rail anywhere in the country as an irresponsible and almost malicious waste of the taxpayers' money.
He trotted out some statistic about each system costing around $9 per ride, which seemed to be derived by taking the total construction and other capital costs of the systems, adding it to the operational expenses, and dividing the total over the number of riders. But if you're going to include the construction costs, how would freeways and other highways hold up to the same analysis?
And he came out with the usual smoke-and-mirrors "alternative" of the anti-rail crowd: busways, or express buses with traffic-signal changers. While there are legitimate advocates for busways and express buses, it seems such systems mainly get proposed as a reaction after a rail transit proposal or plan is produced. Everyone knows that while the highway/auto p.r. people are pushing the bus improvements as a more prudent way of spending tax dollars so long as the rail plan is still under debate or viable, if and when the rail proposal is killed, they will immediately:
1) become totally silent, stopping any further ads or other publicity in favor of the bus improvements, or
2) actively oppose the bus improvements as yet another wasteful boondoggle proposal from the same people that brought out the rail plan.
>>> Stossel was slamming new rail transit in general <<<
John;
You are absolutely right. He was only using Los Angeles as an example. The policy study that I posted earlier makes what seem to be the logical arguments against rail transit in the United States with the current infrastructure. It indicates for instance that the cost of an average round trip on Washington Metro (amortizing capital costs) is $20.75, and Atlanta is $14.06.
It does seem proper to use the capital costs of construction when comparing the cost of building a rail system to using existing roads. Capital costs are used when the alternative is a dedicated busway.
As a railfan I found the that study very depressing and hoped other subtalkers would review it and point out any flaws, and give opposing views. None did.
Tom
[As a railfan I found the that study very depressing and hoped other subtalkers would review it and point out any flaws, and give
opposing views. None did.]
The RPPI study is a rather long document, and I simply haven't had time to read the whole thing. It may well be that other Subtalkers are in much the same position. Even so, based on my admittedly quick skimming through the study, I have to concede that most of the points it raises seem basically sound.
My reaction can be summed up in two words - BIG DEAL. It should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone that rail transit is not a one-size-fits-all solution. In large, densely populated cities such as New York or Washington, with large downtown job concentrations, rail transit is vital. In places like Los Angeles, it has a more limited role, and in many cities it is wholly unworkable. What that means, as far as I'm concerned, is that resources should be concentrated on existing transit systems, rather than in trying to extend rail transit to places where it probably won't work. I don't see that as being some terrible revelation.
I didn't have time to read the study in its entirety, but I should point out that it was published by an activist group with rather extreme right-wing leanings (founded on the "objectivism" philosophy of Ayn Rand of The Fountainhead fame.) There may be some valid data within that study, but I would hardly consider it unbiased. When any group has an agenda to push, they can manipulate statistics to say just about anything that supports their goals.
-- David
Boston, MA
(When any group has an agenda to push, they can manipulate statistics to say just about anything that supports their goals. )
My experience is that "honest" studies tell the truth and nothing but the truth, but not the whole truth if some of the data contradict the preferred conclusions. Most "studies" just make the numbers up.
When I saw the header I decided not to bother--these are the folks who want all fire departments abolished to be replaced with volunteer firefighters! For fun however you might want to visit(http://trolleycar.org/) which is another far right outfit witrh members who actually like LRV's. They seem to believe transit is an okay service for government.
>>> another far right outfit witrh members who actually like LRV's. They seem to believe transit is an okay service for government. <<<
David;
I checked out the website, you posted. These people seem to be like most advocates of corporate welfare. They like light rail (so do I) and would use it if it is convenient, but fail to consider (or ignore) the fact that the subsidized cost of light rail is draining funds from more heavily used public transit such as busses for riders that do not have the choice of taking private autos.
Tom
...that """nut & idiot"" john stossel does not even ride the bus & or train in new york city !!!
what in the hell does this fool know about the transit dependent workers ??? nothing !!!!!
so who is he to KNOCK light rail transit that is working in many cities in the usa ????
www.trolleycar.org/ is the Free Congress Foundation, who were the originator and first Publisher of The New Electric Railway Journal. They are a conservative organization (the website is a sub off the Foundation's site. Oddly, they are boosters of rail transit in general, and admit that transit and conservative politics are not totally exclusive. They spun the mag off, and when Richard Kunz died suddenly, it folded. The Foundation re-instuted it as a Webzine entitled The NEW NEW Electric Railway Journal.
I found out today that NYCT was planning to parade a set of LoV's for the inauguration of the 2000 Subway Series Games.
Apparently problems arose when the units constantly blew their fuses. Most of it was attributed to the fact that the cars are mothballed for too long a period w/o being run.
This idea was shelved before it even got going.
Doug aka BMTman
That's unfortunate. Well, that kills the yearly excursion on the IRT...
-Stef
NOT TRUE AT ALL. The LO-V's do not constantly blow fuses. In fact, I was in them on Monday and on Thursday to change a fan and, EVERYTHING ON THEM WORKS. The cars are operational and for those interested, The ONLY reason they did not run was mainly due to the B derailment last month, The shop is too busy with regular projects and now the derailed train. They did not have the time to inspect the LO-V's . THAT IS WHY THEY WILL NOT RUN THEM TODAY... NOT BECAUSE OF BLOWN FUSES OR ANY OTHER MECHANICAL PROBLEMS.
-Mark
Thank you for giving us the full details Mark. However, it was one of "your own guys" who told me about the fuse story. Guess he got things misconstrued.
Too bad the LoV's couldn't have been inspected in time. Another year to wait for a LoV nostalgia trip...
Doug aka BMTman
Does that mean maybe a lo-V fan trip is forthcoming?
From a "reliable source": this idea never got beyond the embryonic
stage because of pr/marketing/financing issues. The mechanical
condition of the cars and/or inspection schedules was not a factor.
>>this idea never got beyond the embryonic
>>stage because of pr/marketing/financing issues...
But we DID have a FIRST Nostalgia Train Run
in June... atleast ONE got past the "embryonic
stage"..
Oh wouldn't it have been something for the teams to have traveled by train from stadium to stadium ! The "subway series" would have made the front page of papers all around the counrty.
All the switching that would be required would be another matter.
Mr t__:^)
Does that mean that all hands are on deck to fix #2805's broken nose?
Or are they taking the car apart for the NTSB to examine...
BTW Where did they get the spare fan from?
wayne
I did some railfanning this past Monday. Here are highlights
1. The C line was plagued with R38's
2. I boarded a 2 train where the whole train did not have AC. Lead car was 9113.
3. 149-GC is a very busy station.
4. The R142 were not out on test mode.
5. A couple of 5 trains were laid up at 149 and YS.
6. On the D express from 125-59, these group of guys were talking about the old C train with fans and straw seats. They said the conductor had to come out in order to close the doors. They mentioned that the train was fast. Was this the R10??? Lead car on D was 2592.
7. The roll signs inside 2592 were unsual. Half R68 and Half R68a type signs.
8. Rode a Slant R40 down to Sheepshead Bay. The Slants should stay on the Q.
9. Waiting for the A during midday is hell......... This was @ ENY.
3Train#2001Mike
Regarding item #6.....
The cars with the fans and straw seats would have been the R1-9 series. In the early 1960's the straw seats were replaced in many cars with vinyl and even later with plastic panels. The conductors stood between cars to operate the doors on these cars too.
I take issue with item #1 Lots of R38's are on the C daily. They are interchanagable with R32's. If you see lots of R38's on the C, chances are you will see R32's on the A. The R38 is a dependable piece of equipment as far as I know. I would say that the A line is plagued with R44's!
Cars 1-3 were on track 32, right next to the Northwest Passage. Funny, I saw it in the morning at 11:00, it was being cleaned out (must have just arrived), and when I returned at 3:00 they had just turned out the lights (I guess they forgot for 4 hours).
It appears the controls are on the left instead if the right, are they?
According to some of the posts here, Friday, July 7, 2000 is the very last day the the single un-air conditioned R-33 cars on the #7 train operate in passenger service for good. Because of this, I dedicated my entire afternoon to riding these cars on the #7 train, and what a day it was! I rode the "express-local" and that train really cranked up some speed! I stood in the open doorway on the threshold plate holding on to those handles and soaked up the roaring and clacking of the wheels, the jolting, swaying, and speed of the train, and the crisp breeze rustling through my hair - that was a sweet ride, man! The only problem were the return trips to Manhattan - after an exhilerating express ride, stopping at every station was torture! Too bad the Flushing Line wasn't built with 4 tracks so express service could run in both directions simultaneously.
I will definately miss those cars and being able to enjoy fresh air on the elevated tracks!
The very last R-33WF I rode was #9335. The others I rode today were 9314, 9341 and 9342.
So these cars will never return to passenger service? They won't be added on again this fall?
BTW - why were the R-33WF's not removed during the summer of 1998, but were removed again last year?
Who's to say we can't take all the single r33-WF's
getting lopped off the 11-car sets and assemble
10-car trains from the extra singles?????
1SF9
The only 4 track eleveted in the entire system... Brighton Line... Sheepshead Bay to Brighton Beach. The only 6 track elevated in the entire system... Brighton Line... Brighton Beach to Ocean Parkway. The only 8 track station in the entire system... Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue.
West 4th St. has 8 tracks on two levels (you didn't specify "elevated" for that one! :-)
How many tracks did Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction have?
Welll, if we're getting carried away, Times Sq has 18 tracks on 6 levels - or maybe 3 levels if the 7th Ave IRT, the Broadway BMT and the 8th Ave IND are all at the same depth.
Oh no!!! I forgot that one!!! Broadway Elevated has 5 tracks between Broadway - Eastern Parkway. One of those tracks diverge off to the L Line. The L Line has 5 tracks. Whoops... anything else?
Who was the person who specifically said that the R33 singles are off the road for good? I read the board just like you and I don't remember reading that! They'll be back to 11 cars after Labor Day. I think YOU are starting rumors.
Maybe I misread and maybe I didn't, but that's the impression I got. People were saying that the R-62/R-62A would be going to the #7 and with the R-142s entering service, that would eliminate the need for the R-33WFs.
I thought they would put all the R-36s on the 6, and put the R-62as on the 7 before the summer, and retire the cars directly from the 6 (or reassign them, I think the Corona cars are the redbirds in the best condition).
But you're going to need several trainsets of R142's in full time service (not just one on its' 30 day testing phase) on the #6 before you can actually transfer excess R62A's to the #7. The R33 single cars will be gone when every redbird train is removed from the #7 line, and the #6 line assigned R62A's is not enough cars to replace all the redbirds on the #7.
It seems that whenever there's extreme hot weather, '7' trains don't carry that one non-air-conditioned car. You may remember the prolonged heat wave that marked the summer of '99, whereas '98 was a relatively cool summer, much like this one- so far. I recall the summers of '93 and '95 also being exceptionally hot, so the '7' either carried on with only ten cars, or they somehow substituted an a/c car for the usual non a/c one.
Back in the infamous Summer of Sam ('77), Mayor Beame ordered the TA to trot out all its' air-conditioned cars for the passengers' comfort. Of course, that was before most Division A cars even had it!
In the summer of 77, None of the A Division cars had it. They started AC-ing the R-33 9200 series cars first in 1978 on the 6, and worked there way out from there on the R-33s, R-29s and R-36s over the next few years (The R-26s and R-28s AC jobs came later)
I've spotted brand spanking new R-142As at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers New york on Thursday July 6,2000. I saw three five car sets of the new batch of cars. I know the car numbers to two of the sets. They are car #7226 - #7230 and #7231 - #7235. If I get to see more of them I'll keep everyone posted.
BMTJeff
That's what I was doing when the C-3s for the LIRR were coming in. Somewhere I have a list of all the cars and their arrival times in the plant.
Service on Metro-North's Harlem Line extension to Wassaic will begin tomorrow,July 9 when train no.9910 departs Wassaic for GCT at 625am.
Trackage between MP 77 and MP 81.4 previously designated as "Wassaic Extension" will now be redesignated as "Harlem Line." Block Limit Stations at PAWL (MP 64.1) and BROOK (MP 77.0) are out of service. New Block Limit stations at PAT (MP 59.9) and BORD (MP 82.0) in service. Passenger station at TENMILE RIVER(MP79.5) in service replacing former STATE SCHOOL station at MP 78.9. Platform can hold a two car train. Passenger station at WASSAIC (MP 81.3) in service replacing former WASSAIC station at MP 81.3. Platform can hold four car train. There is a four track yard north of Wassaic station with a passing loop to run around trains. Yard Limits are designated as between MP 81.0 and MP 82.0. End of track is now at MP 82.4.
Manual Block Signal System Rules are in effect between CP 155 and BORD. Maximum speed will be 59 MPH.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is in response to an earlier query concerning the HP of Metro-North Engines:
101-106 GP-35 2000hp
201-218 P-32AC-DM 3200
401-403 E-10B 1000 (all electric,now retired and at North White Plains Yard)
543 GP-8 1500
605 RS3M 1200
750 GP-9 1800
2001-2033 FL-9 1800
2040-2046 FL-9AC 3100 (aka the Starships)
A single unit unrebuilt FL-9 can pull a four car train, if the train is more then four cars two units are used.
An FL-9 AC can pull an eight or nine car train though the longest coach hauled train on Metro North is currently eight cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Unless they have been rebuilt, don't the GP-35's give 2500 hp? Also wouldn't the E-10's give 2250 or 2500 hp.
Anyone know when the R42's inhabiting my J line will get those nice new black floors the R32's are now getting? I was on R42 #4798 yesterday, and it was in pitiful shape. Most R42's have poor floor conditions, and I'd like to see them fixed.
The R32's are worse. I don't see the R42's getting new floors till the R32's are completed.
No, many R42's are as bad as the R32's. But I guess the E line is more important.
You say toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe. What can I say? My name is not Al O'Leary, the official TA spokesman. Wasn't he the guy who a few weeks ago said that the redbirds had the same door mod that the newer cars had and that the redbirds would be replaced (that means all gone) by the end of this summer? My point is this: I'm sure there are some R42's with worse floors than some R32's, but some suit in the TA made the decision that the R32's would have their floors replaced first. Why? Working for them for over 20 years and being a rail fan as well, I like to think I know their mindset. The TA is run like a business. And the fact of the matter is that business wise the E must be more important to the TA because it has higher ridership and because of this more frequent service. The E trains are packed. If you are standing in a slope of an R32 E train floor, many times that car is so overcrowded that you can't change your standing position. On an R42 line, in many cases you are able to change your standing position. Maybe the E riders are smarter in the sense if they have a complaint they complain to the TA complaint phone number and write letters more than the R42 riders do. I know this: I interact with a hell of a lot more riders on the E than I ever did on the M & J when I worked those lines. But I also heard a lot more bitching and moaning from those riders (especially from the M lines' Middle Village Crowd) than I'll ever hear from the E riders and those people have to endure a hell of a lot more cattle car like conditions.
The contracts to replace the floors are prepared by car class. Hence, the R-32s will be the first car class to have new flooring. I do not have the Gant Chart at home but I believe that the R-42s are scheduled for 2001-2002.
A few R-62 sets have new floors, and the old floors look pretty bad in many cars. Is the whole fleet being done now, or just a few cars?
If there is an R40/R40M/R42 with an especially mushy floor I will alert you to its car number. So far they aren't bad, at least not as noticeable as the R32s
wayne
I doubt that you'll find any as bad as the R-32 flooring. They are particularly bad because of an installation error (?) during overhaul in 1988. As of now, O believe that all cars with the exception of the R-46 will be getting new floors over the next 4 years (I'm not sure about the R-38s). The R-46 flooring, based on the testing I witnessed in 1991, should be around for many, many more years.
BTW: As always, if you find a particularly bad floor or any significant car defect (for that matter), I'm usually happy to report it to the appropriate maintenance facility.
Best way to post a html link and other stuff like that is to create the it in MS Word, save it as a HTML document. Open the file with Wordpad and copy and past it into the board. This is how I do it and it seems to work.
www
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?postform
To avoid using multiple programs, you could use Front Page express, view source, and copy and paste everything between the <body> and </body> tags. Don't need to save. I don't do this, I'm to lazy to bother, I just memorized the tags and save time.
You can do this with Word too.
I don't think you can do that with Word 6.0. It doesn't seem to have that option in the "Save As" dialogue box. I guess that was one of the features added to Word for Windows 95.
It was added to Word 97, not Word 95. Word 95 had a patch that allowed working with HTML pages, but I don't think it's still on the MS site since Word 95 has been supplanted by two new versions since.
Thanks for the info.
Posting links are easy. I'll use parenthesis' instead of the html < > symbols so it will show up:
(a href="http://url of link") NAME OF LINK(/a)
Why don't you do this:
<a href="http://url of link"> NAME OF LINK</a>
If you want to know how, replace < with < (lt=Less Than) and > with > (Greater Than). These are cap sensitive < will not work! In addition, you can type & 2 ways:
If it's not part of a valid escape sequence (that's what these are called) it will appear.
If you want the text of an escape sequence to appear, or you want to assure that it will appear in all browsers, use & to type & use &amp and so on.
There are a number of other escape sequences, like © which is © and you can also use escape sequences to enter letters using their ASCII codes: ¢ will enter character 0162. This would be the same as entering ALT+0162 on a Windows PC (with NUM LOCK on, hold alt, and press 0, 1, 6 and 2 in that order on the numeric keypad. This works with any ASCII code). So ¢ and ¢ are the same even though they aren't really (One was entered with the Alt+0162 combo and the other was entered using it's escape sequence).
Thanks alot!!! I was trying to find a way to store html codes so I could copy & paste when I needed it and didn't know how to do it. Now I do. Let me see if I got it right:
< >
sarge... why don't you keep the codes under your hat along with the list of the 10 most dangerous subtalkers.....
my "Sussquehanna" hat??
By the way, did you read my post about Lake Arrowhead or Louisiana? Do you remember what episode that was from?
susquehanna hat!!!!!!!!!! do you wear a hat made by the susquehanna hat company????
no i didn't read those posts... i've been blocking everybody's posts lately....
i'll have to check after i get back from an appointment...
It isn't a very good idea. Subtalk converts carriage returns to <BR> which does the same thing in HTML since the browser ignores carriage returns, although a CR does, in effect, close a tag, it doesn't do anything to text. multiple consecutive CRs are replaced with a <P> tag, which opens a paragraph container and (in the case of this tag, since it has no utility for nesting) closes the previous. HTML also ignores multiple spaces. That's why when you try to space paragraphs more than one line apart, they becomes only one line apart, and large spaces between words are replaced by only a single space. If one were to use your method, one would have to get rid of all the carriage returns except in text. The only sensible way to do this would be to use Notepad and turn of word wrapping, since the TEXTAREA here automatically wraps.
You can have multiple spaces and CRs by starting them with a <PRE> and closing them with an <PRE>
Another thing that SubTalk does to the text you type is strip everything inside a <SCRIPT> container. WebBBS allows the webmaster to disable HTML. In that case, any typed instance of < is replaced with < and > with > in this case, the script container needn't be purged. I don't know what happens with escape sequences.
Best way to post a html link and other stuff like that is to create the it in MS Word, save it as a HTML document. Open the file with Wordpad and copy and past it into the board. This is how I do it and it seems to work.
www
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?postform
www
www.nycsubway.org
How about you guys all use the Preview Message before posting your broken html?
-Dave
whenever i post a link, i preview the message, and then click on the link to make sure that it's working... then i come back to the previewed message... it's worth the effort to me as i always strive for perfection in my posts, although i generally achieve mediocrity...
I learned what little I know about HTML by looking at the source code of other people's messages and seeing how they got their links, images.etc. to work.
The following is about as much as I've learned so far:
Don't forget to visit the LIRR History Website
aaaaah, but Bob..... do you know the HTML to make it so that you can click on the IMAGE and go to the website?
(here's a hint - stick the IMG SRC tag INSIDE the A HREF parameters).
Using Word and saving it as HTML is so lame. Everyone here can learn basic HTML in no time - I have never once used an editor on any of my webpages. Never never never. Only my typing and copy-paste. So for an example of what you can do with just raw HTML and just an ever-so-basic knowledge of it, go to the only section of my transit improvement website that actually works, the Nostrand Avenue Light Rail webpage. C U LATR!
I've only used an editor for setting colors. Then I strip the META GENERATOR codes and such and work with the page manually. I'm not going to learn RGB color values and how to convert them to hex. Of course, that was before I knew one could use the name of the color.
[I have never once used an editor on any of my webpages. Never never never.]
I can only manage to find about one hour a week to "play around" with my website, so I always, always, always use an HTML editor (Adobe Pagemill). To each his own.
I use Adobe GoLive to generate my web sites. I could, I suppose make a good web page without it, but a good HTML program manages the whole website. If I move an image from one folder to another, the program will make corrections to every HTML page that has that link. It even knows what pages were changed, and uploads the new copies to the WebServer. You may check out my work at Assumption Abbey.
Now for your LRT map... Good Work! I too have been thinking of rebuilding the subway system, and have the same govt. maps that I thought would make a good base, so I am please to see how well yours have worked out.
Elias
Interesting thing about those USGS maps - sometimes they leave stuff out. For instance, the map I used as a base (Brooklyn Quadrangle) was supposedly "photorevised in 1981" (meaning anything that was new in 1981 but not on the original manuscript would be in purple since a field check was not done). But the Myrtle Ave. El tracks are on there. Anohter thing is that the track connection to the Broadway El is NOT shown. ust interesting tidbit
The photo recon on these maps is subject to intrepretation of someone who has never been there. On the St. Meinrad Quadrangle (Indiana) the older version did not show the handball courts. The surveyor was there on the ground and said "Oh, tohes are handball courts" and he did not draw them on the map. Later the spy satallite or whatever flew over, and recorded the images, and the redactor said "Oh, some new buildings here", and drew them in, where in fact they remained just handball courts.
From a satalite image it is probably equivical if an elevated train is or is not running on a given street, and since they are looking for additions or obvious gross changes it is easy to see how some redactor sitting in an airconditioned office somewhere inside the beltway would not erase an existing geographic feature.
Elias
I also think it is easier to add stuff than to take it away.
I can't use any editor since I use webtv and have no computer. I must use html. That is how I created all my following pages:The SARGE-my homepage
my MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAY
my Color Quiz
my assorted JOKES
my NUMBER TRICK
my LIVE WORLD WEBCAM page
my dirty pictures!!!
Ugh! My Ears! True, that is one way to do it. But by far, that is not the best!
HTML is designed to be simple. You may want to try it out on your own computer before uploading it to a message board. All you have to do is open a Notepad document and save it to your desktop as test.html
Then try some of the following commands out:
Bold is done by starting what you want bolded with <B> and ending your selection with </B>.
Italics is done by starting what you want bolded with <I> and ending your selection with </I>.
Links are done by starting with the destination of the site. For example, if you wanted to create a link to this website, you would type <A HREF="http://www.nycsubway.org"> NYCSUBWAY.ORG and end it with </A>. This is what you get:
you would type NYCSUBWAY.ORG
Neat Trick: Add <target="_new"> to the link, (meaning you would type <A HREF="http://www.nycsubway.org" target="_new"> A new browser opens to load the page. You may want to mention this in the text portion of the link: NYCSubway.org Home (In a New Window) This way, we can all keep the NYCSubway page open, and not have to keep hitting back, and wait for the message index to load.
Save the file again, then go to your desktop. Whatever your default browser is will load the page. There is lots more that you can do. There are plenty of good resources out there that can teach you the basics relatively quickly. Take care though: Don't go nuts with styles, or other quirky things. Things like Blinking Text (Netscape) and Marquees (IE), in my opinion, do not belong in a message board such as this. Many message boards do not allow HTML to post with, either. And remember our good moderator's advice Preview your message and test your links before posting!
..........I sure learned a lot reading you post ( s ) now if i can soon "" get the trick ""
as to how to load a transit picture inside the message box < in this area here >
then i got it made & i thank you .........
Salaam, you can't actually "load" a picture, all you can do is provide a link to one that will automatically come up. Here's how it's done:
<IMG SRC="http://www.members.home.net/cleverett/MEL_grad/MEL_grad_03.jpg">
will get you
(Hey, it gave me an excuse to post a picture of my daughter graduating from college...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice going Mouse, but how do you determine the size of the photo that will be posted?
Tom
That's based on the image size I start with. There are ways of specifying it in HTML but I haven't used them, since they may distort the image if done incorrectly (and I'm no expert, that's for sure).
My reference for HTML is D. J. Quad's Ultimate HTML Site - what I know I learned there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
question ...can you drop in a picture from the hard drive HD like from a macintosh g3 for example ??
also if you come off of your "" harddrive"" can you do that also ??
not on a message board. the only way to get a picture on here would be to upload it first on some other website and then post a link to it here in the IMG SRC tag. all of my pics are loaded first onto websites and then linked here. a word of advice: if you don't have a free webpage directory yet, DON'T use angelfire. they have recently enacted java so that you can only view images stored on angelfire through angelfire pages. and so that viewers on SUBTALK wouldn't be able to see it. i found this out the hard way. i had a website that, well, didn't exactly comply with angelfire's terms of service (if you catch my drift) that had the main pages on one server and the images on angelfire. and then all of a sudden i start getting email that says my faithful viewers can't find their pics. so, it's all gone now (canniblaized, to have the space used by more hairbrained transit idea pages like the Nostrand LRT) but DON'T USE ANGELFIRE. a good place is 50megs.com. They will give you 50 megs of space so long as it is your REAL webpage, and as long as you don't use it for porn or hate sites. So go get a directory and start putting images on subtalk! in the meantime, a few pics from my websites....
actually on second thought i won't put those in here :)
have fun!
"they have recently enacted java so that you can only view images stored on angelfire through angelfire pages."
That's not Java. The server checks the referrer (URL of page where the image is located or the link was clicked), if it's on an Angelfire server, it loads the image. If it's blank (you entered the URL manually or used your bookmarks) or contains a non-Angelfire server, it loads the dummy image.
Why do you even bother posting this anyway? It will NEVER get to him! He's asked this question before, it's been answered and he's acknowledged the answers and still asks the same questions! I can't believe that such a person is even able to learn how to use a computer.
No, you have to have it uploaded to a web server. Most ISPs provide you with some free webspace; if they don't, you can get space from Yahoo, Geocities, or any one of a number of other places out there. My daughter's picture is on space my ISP provides.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
no! use 50megs.com they are the BEST!
. I am going to try it thank you .............
No, you're not.
..................???????????......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............
One question. I'm pretty good at html but I'm at a loss at how you were able to show the code on the post without it showing up as html.
I made a response to one of your other posts that explained this. You can also look at the source code to see how it's done, but my message explains it.
THERE WILL BE A CHAT IN THE #METROCARD ROOM TONIGHT, 7/1/00 AT 9PM.
To get into the chat, goto http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard using your web browser, but if you are using an IRC client, and only do this if you know how to, goto the irc.cjb.net server, channel #metrocard.
07/08/2000
On June 24th, Subway Buff reported a release of a Kozmo.com Metrocard (Return of Kozmo.com Metrocards #131476) to be sold at certain stations on July 3rd.
Has anybody seen these Metrocards? Do they look the same or different that the earlier Kozmo.com Metrocards?
Bill "Newkirk"
07/09/2000
I guess I'll answer my own question since I picked up two today at 28th St on the Bway BMT. They seem to look like the earlier ones, but the southbound agent gave me one with an expiration date 0f 04/30/01 and the northboubnd agent gave me one with 08/31/01.
BTW - How come only the southbound side has an MVM machine but the northbound doesn't?
Bill "Newkirk"
07/08/2000
As a former vendor at the Hoboken Festivals, i received in today's mail an announcement and vendor application for the festival. for your info:
Try Transit Festival 18 is scheduled for Saturday Sept.16,2000.
It was rumored on this board that the festival was cancelled this year. Well according to this notice, it's on!
Bill "Newkirk"
Now there's a conflict on Sept. 16th. Hoboken Festival and NYCT Bus Festival on the street at the Transit Museum.
A day trip could be made out of it. Go to the Transit Museum early and take the I.R.T. and P.A.T.H. to Hoboken for the second half of the day.
Peace,
ANDEE
Äll right! I'm definitely going this year (missed all of the ones since the 14th). Looking forward to the tour of the shops, if they have it again this year.
They where running the R142A all day on the No.6 Line making similatied Station Stops (Not In Service) along the No.6 Line from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge. The R 142A will also run along the No.6 on Sunday doing Test runs. The Train made a 8:45AM, 11:12,1:40PM,4:03 out of Pelham today.
Also I was talking with a worker from Kawasaki and he said the R 142A will leave E 180 Yard 8AM Monday meaning the train will NOT LEAVE PELHAM AT 8:08AM but will on Tuesday morning.
The R 142A will be at Grand Central around 10AM Monday where there will be a celebration and all the Big TA Bosses and Local Politions like Gov. Pataki and Mayor Giuliani will be there. Also after that they will meet the R 142 on the No.2 Line at Times Square. The train is supposed to be in service at Grand Central anywhere between 10AM -1 PM Im not sure of the time they will let costomers on to the train.
I almost forgot the R 142A did go Brakes In Emergency Northbound around Grand Central with NO cause found. This did cause a Minor delay in Uptown No.6 service.
The Redbird Car Club is gonna have a field day with this.
-Stef
...afraid of it's own shadow?
Does this strart a new 30 day clock?
The 30 day clock starts when the train goes in service which will be tomorrow.
Pelham Bay Dave, best wishes for your inaugural run of the new train on Tuesday! Wish I could be there. Hopefully I get to the City sometime during the next few weeks to catch a ride.
A new era begins for the NYC subway:
Remember the past.
Cherish the present.
Look forward to the future!
Thanks alot I will need it. Have that train for two runs! As long as the train can keep a schedule.
I don't recognize the last part. Is that original, or are you quoting someone?
(BTW: Don't forget to </Font>.)
It was original. My way of saying that while nostalgia is good, today's dreams are the nostalgia of the future. Or something like that!!
tg
Who the heck knows. I suppose anything's possible.
-Stef
Write it off as a rat hitting the trip. Can't let a little thing like a brake application cause more delays of their entry into service.
But that was the only problem with the train. I was on it tonight and I got some pics. Who do I send it to so it can be displayed on this website? I also got audio clips.
Here are some of the details:
It's a female voice that announces the stations and destinations. It's a male voice that announces "Stand Clear of The Closing Doors" and all of the available transfers. The door chime is too simple!
The train will run all night.
We have a female voice on the M-4's here in Philly. Not too hard to listen to, either. How do you guys like your female voice?
Chuck Greene
> Who do I send it to so it can be displayed on this website?
Me. You can send jpg file attachments. Try to make them around 640x480 -> 800x600.
-Dave
The LIRR's response to the Subway Series was p!@# poor, in my opinion. I boarded a westbound PW train, what was supposed to be the 12:31 from Broadway, hoping to make a 1:00 connection to Huntington at Woodside.
The train was 25 minutes late, making me miss the connection, because it was filled to near-crush conditions by fans heading to Shea for the subway series. At the very least, you had a real threat of injury both within the cars and from the large gap at the platform at Shea.
This problem could have been easily alleviated had the LIRR put on one extra westbound and one extra eastbound during afternoon hours, for a total of two trains per hour. After all, it does this to accommodate US Open fans in September...and those trains run to normal capacity anyway (with the extra train running nearly empty).
I know there are some LIRR guys in Subtalk. Would they care to explain why there's extra service for one event, and not for another?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Could it be that the LIRR identifies more with tennis fans than lowly subway type baseball fans? :-)
Tom
I suspect class-ism is part of it, but as I said, I'd like to hear what any LIRR professionals have to say about it. It's been suggested that perhaps the Open subsidizes the extra train service and the Mets won't, but that's pure speculation.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[re no extra LIRR service for Mets games, while there is extra service for the US Open]
[Could it be that the LIRR identifies more with tennis fans than lowly subway type baseball fans?]
It could be that the LIRR thinks that the "upscale" types who go to the US Open wouldn't lower themselves by riding the (ick!) subway, while the more diverse Mets fans have no such qualms.
Perhaps its a matter of scheduling extra trains. The US Open dates are known well in advance and the LIRR can make adequate arrangements. This "Subway Series" came up with short notice
[It could be that the LIRR thinks that the "upscale" types who go to the US Open wouldn't lower themselves by riding the (ick!) subway, while the more diverse Mets
fans have no such qualms. ]
Though not a regular LIRR rider, the LIRR trains I've been on have been far *dirtier* than the subways I ride every day. For example, I took one out to Ronkonkoma last summer that was so full of trash (newspapers, cups, discarded food(!), and 5 or 10 dried up streams of spilled coffee) you had to play hopscotch just to get to the door before you stuck to the floor and the train pulled out and you missed it. I'd rather take the subway than the (ick!) LIRR!
[[It could be that the LIRR thinks that the "upscale" types who go to the US Open wouldn't lower themselves by riding the (ick!) subway, while the more diverse Mets fans have no such qualms. ]
[Though not a regular LIRR rider, the LIRR trains I've been on have been far *dirtier* than the subways I ride every day. For example, I took one out to Ronkonkoma last summer that was so full of trash (newspapers, cups, discarded food(!), and 5 or 10 dried up streams of spilled coffee) you had to play hopscotch just to get to the door before you stuck to the floor and the train pulled out and you missed it. I'd rather take the subway than the (ick!) LIRR!]
Without doubt. Riding on an LIRR train that hasn't seen the cleaners' attention is truly a stomach-turning experience. It amazes me that people can manage to strew so much trash around themselves on a rail trip of one hour or so. My "favorite" is the Rolling Beer Bottle Chorus.
Metro-north doesn't have this problem, and they have bar cars!
Maybe that's why they don't have the problem - people booze in the bar car so there's no need for them to bring their own (I know, I'm not even close but it's worth a shot).
Why doesn't the LIRR have bar cars? The Ronkonkoma/Greenport and Montauk Branches esp. could use them. NJ Transit could use them also, especially on the NJCL and Port Jervis lines.
How do the MNRR bar cars compare to the Amtrak Cafe Cars?
The Metropolitan class: Seats go around the sides of the car, facing the middle, with a vertical pole with beer-holders attached. There's a bathroom in the car, as well as a cab for the engineer (its in a married pair), and in the middle section (between the doorways) there's a counter on one side with a place to stand at on the other. Easy to spot, one side of the car has no windows between the doorways. Im'd drawing on 3yr old memories here.
The Shoreliner class: Basically a shoreliner with a few seats removed and a hot dog cart bolted to the floor.
Kevin
I'm sure that part of the problem is that the LIRR has been doing track work this weekend on the PW branch east of Great Neck, requiring all passengers to take busses. The number of "occasional passengers" who were probably going to Shea and were not in the right location to board busses was probably the cause of your 25 minute delay. (There's also a pretty good chance that one or more of the busses got stuck in traffic and/or the LIRR missed their estimate on the number of busses needed for that run -- given all the passengers to Shea).
I have no idea why they chose this weekend to do that work.
As far as I've ever been able to tell, the extra service for the US Open exists for the Manhattan tennis crowd to go to and from the Tennis Center without having to potentially soil their tennis whites on the subway. (I'm at a loss for why people going to the US Open feel the need to wear tennis outfits and occasionally carry rackets -- I guess they think that there's a chance they'll be summoned as an injury replacement).
No wonder why I saw all those buses there at Great Neck on Saturday. Saw an old GMC bus as well as several school buses in service, and the unfortunate LIRR riders who got stuck riding these buses had no A/C.
No excuse for such poor service on the PW branch on that day. I dislike that branch anyway for it's once an hour service on weekends, much better to stick with the Main Line and Babylon branch. Everything north shore on the LIRR stinks.
Of course if you were going to Shea, then that's the only LIRR branch to take. With LIRR probably better taking Main line to Woodside and then catch the #7.
For you it probably would've been better to take the bus to Flushing and then #7 to Woodside and catch your train. Or get a bus to Jamaica and catch the LIRR there. PW branch service is slow and stinks period, even though I live closer to that branch I prefer the main line. And on weekends PW branch trains are packed anyway, because they run ONLY once an hour, which in my opinion they should run every half hour like most of the other lines in electric territory.
I'm signing off for the night. Off to Branford, for another day of labor intensive work on my baby (the R-17 that is). Maybe I'll get lucky and manuver her around the yard, since she's out of the shop this week. Hehehe. This railfan never gets enough of the NY Subway even if the car's 80 miles from home. I'll see what I can do for her. I'll report when I return home late tonight.
Farewell My Friends and God Bless,
Stef
The T/O of my R train today stopped right in front of the signal (10" away) and caused the trip arm to go down. When the signal further ahead cleared, the closer one did not. The T/O proceeded past the red signal. My question: Why did the closer signal not clear?
You did not state where this occurred. That would have provided a clue as to what had happened. The immediate signal was at danger, likely because there was a train ahead or one was crossing in front of you. When the T/O pulled up to that red signal, he obviously put his wheels over the insulated joint (IJ) on the signal rail. While the signal stayed at danger, he also entered the block protected by that signal. In doing so, he 'keyed' the signal, causing the stop arm to go down. This is normal operation for the signal system. However, it would have been a violation of rules for the T/O to proceed past the signal without permission.
This was on track GD1 just before the merger of the R and N. He proceeded past after the train had crossed and the subsequent signal cleared, though the immediate one did not.
As I said, once the train was over the IJ, the signal would not clear. Obviously, there was an N train crossing in front of the R train. When the N train cleared the block, and the switch was thrown, the second signal cleared.
Was the further away signal the "home ball", displaying two colored
lights? Was the signal he keyed an "automatic", with a single
red light? Was the prior signal at yellow? That section of
track is timed. A single red failure could be a defective timing
relay or circuit. If it was indeed the automatic before the home
ball, that's a tower-controlled approach signal. A failure in
the cable leading from the tower to that signal or a failure in the
tower's relay interlocking could also cause that symptom. It
would not likely be a track circuit failure as that should cause
2 red signals.
Prior signal: Yellow
Affected Signal: Automatic
Next Signal: Home, red-red until the N crossed, then Yellow-Yellow
OK, that's what I thought. My list of probable causes stands...oops
I forgot one: there are indicating contacts in the stop arm box
that tell when the arm is all the way up and when it is all the
way down. If one of those contacts fails, the associated signal
will not clear.
As one who loves baseball as much as I do trains, I was most fortunate to be able to attend both Mets-Yankees games yesterday. And (naturally), I traveled by subway.
I was at Shea Stadium by noon. The #7 line had 10-car trains. After the game, there was additional express service between Main St (or Willets Point Blvd) and Times Square. The afternoon service was so frequent that delays occurred after 45 Rd-Court House Sq.
After seeing the number of trains on the #7 line, I was expecting a similar amount of service on the #4 line, but that wasn't the case. I was at Grand Central about 6:15 PM, and #4 service appeared to be every 10 minutes. I was at Yankee Stadium by 6:45.
When the second game ended, and I got to the D train platform about 11 PM, a D was waiting-as were police and transit personnel to direct smoother/faster loading. After transferring to the E at Seventh Av, and taking the Q83 bus at Parsons/Archer, I was home at 12:30 AM.
I had my camcorder with me, and took some shots on the platforms
at 74 St-Broadway, Willets Point-Shea Stadium, and 161 St-Yankee Stadium, as well as on the #7 between 103 St and Willets Point eastbound, and between Main St and 103 St, and 33 St and Hunters Point Av westbound.
For a baseball fanatic, I still can hardly believe that I was in 2 ballparks in the same day - with 55,000+ others! As a trainlover, I'm glad that I could take NYC Transit to get around, and not have to deal with traffic and parking hassles!
Did any other SubTalker go to both baseball games?
The new R142's are designed to have wider doors to let people on and off the train faster. About a month ago, someone posted that the doors should cover 50% of the sides of the train to get maxiumum door space at the sacrifice of the windows. Instead of that, why don't they do like London does and place the doors on the outside of the train so that window space isn't compromised? Did this not cross their minds becuase they have a set way in their minds on how a subway car should look? Having wide doors like in London will make getting on and off a helluva lot faster than it is now.
Outside-hung doors have been used before on NY transit equipment, specifically, the "C"-type el conversions for the BMT, and the "MUDC" el conversions used on the Manhattan els.
The problem with outside-hung doors is that it creates more opportunities for rust, corrosion, water leaks, and stuck doors.
Those are good points, I never thought of them. Do any of our fellow Londoners have any observations on outside hung doors in the Tube?
someone posted that the doors should cover 50% of the sides of the train to get maxiumum door space at the sacrifice of the windows.
More advertising space to sell.
All the prewar cars except the BMT articulateds had glass at the door pockets. Many were later painted over or replaced to display advertising.
Question: Does the LA Metro have ATO? Reading some messages here recently about the opening of the new extension implied that they don't (something like, "...and the T/O pushed the lever forward to make the train go..."). Why would a new system like that not have ATO?
Comment: The thread about the 20/20 report was talking about how low the ridership was on the Metro. Well, IMHO, I think that the LA MTA doesn't expect or really want high ridership. Why? Becuase they don't even have turnstiles to get on the system. You have to hold your ticket the entire time so that a cop can walk through the train and check everyone. If the trains were crowded, no one would be able to walk around and check everyone. And there would be a lot of people taking advantage of this and not pay to ride. So having high ridership would not really help bring revenue to the system. What does everyone think?
POP---proof of payment is fairly common in most of the "recent" LRV systems in the US and although it may encourage some fare evasion--the savings over cranky fare gates and 49k/yr clerks (BART) to tell you to use the change machines is significant In turn most of these LRV systems have no physical barriers to the platform area. Thus a far cheaper project from the get go. Using the same logic for the Red Line in LA given that it intersects with the Blue(LRV), seems logical to me. What the fares versus riders numbers will look like in a year or so is an interesting question. As I posted earlier the ridership of the Red Line nearly doubled with the new segment. 110k riders is not bad for a 17 mile line--after all BART has only recently reached 320k for nearly 90 miles of system.
>>> nearly doubled with the new segment. 110k riders <<<
David;
Don't believe everything you read. Those figures are from less than two weeks of the new service. We will have to wait a few months til the novelty of the new line wears off to see the real ridership figures. Part of the increase comes from canceling the parallel express bus, so it is not net new business to the MTA. To give the MTA the credit that is due, the Metro Rapid bus service connecting with the North Hollywood station seems like a good idea.
Tom
(Those figures are from less than two weeks of the new service. We will have to wait a few months til the novelty of the new line wears off to see the real ridership figures.)
Actually, we'll have to wait a few years. Did LA upzone to allow much larger buildings -- with less parking -- near the subway? Does the subway get you to enough places that young people and/or old people might choose to live there without a car? Does it run through non-depressed areas?
If so, you might get high rise development within 1/4 mile of the stations. If it's businesses or housing young singles and couples (no need to spend on schools or Medicaid), the property tax payments may eventually pay for the line. You need a change in land use, and zoning to allow it without red tape.
>>> Actually, we'll have to wait a few years. <<<
Larry;
If in fact the area changes and that brings new riders, it might be a result of the subway, but what I was pointing out was the doubling of riders immediately after the opening does not indicate there was a large group of potential riders waiting with baited breaths for the gates to open. It is inflated by the curious and current MTA riders who have had their (faster) express buses terminated at the Red Line rather than continuing to downtown Los Angeles.
Tom
>>> Does the LA Metro have ATO? <<<
The light rail Green Line is designed to be fully ATO. It is on a closed line with no switches or grade crossings. It was decided that the public would not accept ATO (as with San Francisco's BART) and therefore it is not being operated in ATO mode. The other light rail, the Blue Line runs at grade level (53 fatalities in ten years of operation) and therefore is not a candidate for ATO. The Red Line (subway) is OPTO, and IMHO less than state of the art OPTO (i.e. no closed circuit TV for the T/O). Too much of the money went into fancy architecture rather than technology
>>> Becuase they don't even have turnstiles to get on the system. You have to hold your ticket the entiretime so that a cop can walk through the train and check everyone <<<
This type of fare control is not that uncommon throughout the world, and is probably used in the majority of new systems. It makes it much easier to charge extra for added fare zones, and reduces the need for people to keep watch on the entries to prevent turnstile jumping.
If you look at the fact that the fare is $1.35 one way which could be reduced to $0.90 by buying ten tokens at a time, and the fine for failure to have a valid ticket is $250.00, plus the fact that the fare beater interacts with a law enforcement officer and may have a warrant check run leading to arrest on the scene, there is sufficient deterrent to fare beating.
>>and
the fine for failure to have a valid ticket is $250.00, plus the fact that the fare beater interacts with a law enforcement
officer and may have a warrant check run leading to arrest on the scene, there is sufficient deterrent to fare beating.<<
Yeah, I know that would deter fare beater, but what if the train was packed? How could an officer even move around to check tickets? This is the point I'm trying to make, having a crowded train won't help LA enforce fares, so therfore they don't expect to ever have high ridership.
>>> having a crowded train won't help LA enforce fares <<<
Rob;
You have to keep in mind that ticket checks are done on a random basis. Not every train is checked, and those checked are not necessarily checked 100%. Since an arrest rate of 1% of fare beaters (and collection of the $250.00 fine) is sufficient to offset the other 99% that are not apprehended with the lower cost of enforcement compared to monitoring turnstiles it is a sensible system. Fare checking has to be done just often enough to remind the honest riders that someone is looking.
In the case of jam packed trains, random checks can be made on platforms (there are signs saying ticket required beyond this point) of a percentage of riders waiting to board or alighting from trains.
The Blue Line is jammed at rush hours now, so the choice of this system it is not based on expectation that there will be no crowded trains.
Tom
.......I have watched here people totally confused about how to buy a ticket for round trip single trip etc......
you could have an old ticket one way for the cheapest fare & go all ways all day long ..............
"" then if you are jammed for a ticket show the expired one"" the transit cop does not have the time to check each
& every ticket to se if you have the right one !! I will bet even forged tickets run amuck & old expired tickets pass
each & every day !!! What I would do is charge one dollar & the ticket would be a different color every day of the week with clear markings..!!
since they dont have a system like the marta fare gates & SAN FRANCISCO & MARTA it is a failed system.
However most of us at least buy a ticket ONE WAY .....................( oh well ) ............
It works quite well on the Newark City Subway. They just stick a cop at the foot of the escalator at Penn Station (Newark) to catch people leaving the system. The "I forgot to stamp the ticket" dodge seems to work for now. (The cop just confiscated the ticket from the woman carrying it.)
In Germany, they use the most sensible system. The fare is about the equivalent of $1.30 if you buy the ticket before getting on the bus, trolley, or train. If an inspector gets on (plain-clothes, loud announcement once the door closes) and you don't have a ticket, the fare is about $25.00. If you don't have that, off to jail you go. And I've seen it done during rush hour on flexible accordian busses filled with maybe 150 people. A group gets on at one time and off they go inspecting everyone. It's like passport control between countries on the railroad.
In Baltimore, it's even tougher. If you don't have it you getting the equivalent of a speeding ticket. Though I once saw someone handcuffed and taken away in a police car. I like the German way better, personally. It's just a much higher fare.
>>> If an inspector gets on (plain-clothes, loud announcement once the door closes) and you don't have a ticket, the fare is about $25.00. If you don't have that, off to jail you go. <<<
Carl;
That is not a fare of $25.00, it is a fine. The Germans accept that type of instant justice. I remember one time in 1962, I was pulled over on the autobahn for some minor infraction. I expected to get a ticket and have to appear at the equivalent of a magistrate's court, but instead the policeman explained to me what the infraction was that he was stopping me for, told me the fine was 50DM (at that time $12.50), collected the 50DM fine on the spot, and gave me a serial numbered printed receipt for the payment. I do not know what the procedure would have been if I had not had the cash on hand.
Tom
I guess it's a fine (the transit one), but no record is kept and as long as you pay, you never wind up in court. I think the traffic thing is recorded against your driving record, but it is convenient to just pull out DM150 (currrently) or so and pay it on the spot.
The Baltimore MTA policy on the Light Rail is as follows:
1. The MTA Police Officer will offer to let you off at the next stop and buy a ticket.
2. Give the officer any guff whatsoever and you get the summons. Keep it up, and you get yourself arrested.
3. Have no ID, the officer checks your identity by radio contact with the judicial system. If an outstanding warrent is discovered, the ticketless pasenger is arrested on the spot.
I've only seen the handcuff removal once in seven years.
The MTA Police are sworn Police Officers with all Maryland arrest powers.
Mentioning "53 fatalities in ten years of operation" brings up a good pooint.
NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM WAS THE FAULT OF THE BLUE LINE!
>>> NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM WAS THE FAULT OF THE BLUE LINE! <<<
Steve;
All though it is true that in each and every case, investigations cleared MTA personnel of any wrongdoing, and in every case the deceased or the driver when there were multiple fatalities ignored a safety device or signal, some aspects of the design of the Blue Line have contributed to the problems.
It has been pointed out that because it runs parallel to the freight line, motorists get impatient waiting for a long freight to pass, and will pull around the gate as soon as the freight clears the near track, only to be surprised by a fast (55 mph) train on the other side.
Where the ROW runs parallel to a busy street there have been left turns in front of trains with motorist apparently not realizing the gate was down because he was looking at the end of it. (He still had to ignore warning lights.)
Pedestrians seeing a train in a station have gone around gates to get to the station (an island station between the tracks) and have been hit be a train coming in the other direction.
To try to correct some of the problems they are building an overpass over the line at Imperial Highway, one of the busiest streets; they are installing gates that will close off both sides of a street to avoid motorists driving around a lowered gate, and designing the pedestrian gates to be harder to walk around.
Tom
I used to live in Merrick before the tracks were raised. They used to kill off about one commuter a month there. Just as you have described it, the commuter runs out behind the departing eastbound and gets clobbered by the incoming westbound. And LIRR does 80 mph on that line. Call it the route of the Dashing Dead.
Well it is difficult to protect people from their own stupidity.
Elias
Who needs biotechnology? This is eugenics at work.
What's up with this station.It smells like urine, the lights are dim, it faces a cemetary and the station is in a dead end street with cinder blocks boarding up the windows.
How can tha MTA let their stations fall in such deplorable conditions? Not only for the tax payers who pay for the comfort and service but for their employees who have to work in these derelict conditions for 8 hours at a time.
I walked outside to see the neighbourhood and was slightly intimidated. Which area is this station in? It looks pretty rundown.
It's in Bushwick.
Wilson Ave was the station that had a majority of its steel roof STOLEN over a period of time in the early 90s. Photo of the station (sans roof), along with an (L) train, appeared in USA Today. A NYCTA first; it was the first station to have had it's roof stolen!
What do you mean by stolen? At night when no one is looking people would come in and take off with whatever they could.
Is that not quite impossible. Sounds odd!!
Hey, that's nothing!
Sometimes the TRACKS of the LIRR Bay Ridge branch will be MISSING (i.e., STOLEN) if the line is not used for a lengthly period.
Believe it or not!
Doug aka BMTman
You think thats something. I know a police station house that had all its toilets stolen. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!!!
what's this, summer reruns? 8-)
Was it in Flushing?
RIM SHOT!!!!!
(((DOUBLE RIM SHOT))) Oh, POO!
(((wayne)))
[You think thats something. I know a police station house that had all its toilets stolen. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!!!]
According to an article in the Times, at one stationhouse in Harlem (IIRC the 30th Pct.) the detectives have to bring in their own rolls of toilet paper - and lock them in their desks so no one takes them.
[I know a police station house that had all its toilets stolen. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!!! ]
... It seems that the detectives have finally met their Water-loo!
RIM SHOT!!!
*** RIM SHOT **** HONK HONK HONK!
BOOOOOOO! Hisssss!!!! Ptui!!! :o>
[What do you mean by stolen? At night when no one is looking people would come in and take off with whatever they could?]
That's exactly what happened!
[What's up with this station.It smells like urine, the lights are dim, it faces a cemetary and the station is in a dead end street with cinder blocks boarding up the windows.]
Welcome to HELL!
You've reminded me of an entire car on the Flushing line in the mid 70's done in graffitti saying Welcome to Hell with some excellent artwork depicting the artists idea of hell. Yes, I hate graffitti but that was a work of art that couldn't have been in one night. Wonder how the "artist'' managed to keep track of that car long enough to finish it.
I'm surprised it didn't say "Welcome to Grant's Tomb". That's what Mets fans started calling Shea Stadium after M. Donald Grant traded Tom Seaver to the Reds.
Speaking of Seaver, yesterday marked 31 years since his imperfect game against the Cubs. Jimmy Qualls broke up Tom Terrific's bid for immortality when he singled to left with one out in the top of the 9th. Shea was bursting at the seams that night; the total attendance was 59,083 with 10,000 more outside.
I remember that one: I think it was #9645, but don't quote me on that.
South of 45 Road station is the Phun Phactory, alongside the southbound tracks. Some awesome murals abound there; the painters apparently own the building or are at least allowed to paint it. It is quite a sight.
wayne
[What's up with this station.It smells like urine, the lights are dim, it faces a cemetary and the station is in a dead end street with cinder blocks boarding up the windows. How can tha MTA let their stations fall in such deplorable conditions?]
Wilson Avenue's bad, but at least it's in a fairly out-of-the-way location and is lightly used. Compare it to Chambers Street on the J/M/Z, which is in even worse condition despite being located almost directly under the Municipal Building and having much higher ridership.
I'm not saying that Wilson should be neglected, but when it comes to setting priorities, Chambers should come first.
Actually, Wilson's not THAT bad - parts of it need some TLC but there's no threat of imminent collapse. The foul aroma came from the stairwells which had just been hosed down. I hadn't noticed any bathroom smell in previous trips there. The cemetery, well, it is what it is. The station house has a few leaks and they could have chosen some better materials for closing up the windows. But the real highlight of the station, its 28-color mosaics, is fortunately largely intact. Perhaps it will get a facelift someday.
wayne
The mosaics nice enough but can't hold a candle to Montrose or Bushwick/Aberdeen for nice color combinations. I always thought they were the liveliest of any of those multi-color mosaics. Since Chamers was mentioned in this thread I have to say I agree completely with an earlier post that said Chambers (J
Chambers St. looks a lot like the main building on Ellis Island before it was renovated.
People should really check out the wonderful blue and gold bridge tile design on the abandoned northbound side platform. Real marble still existsn there!
(Bridge plaques at Chambers St. BMT)
And there's an even BETTER ONE (pink marble pilaster and plaque are fully intact) at the very south end of the SOUTHBOUND track, right where the 1962 wall ends. Some of the ones on the closed n/b platform, especially near the south end of the station just need a good cleaning (the plaque) and steamblasting (the tile and marble).
There are a couple of pilasters that are cracked (near the north end) and one of the plaques needs work (make a mold of an intact one to recreate it or fill in the missing chunk).
An architectural gem is Chambers Street. It's VERY bad now, could be getting worse (concrete's powdering away), but there is work going on in the north end crossover. It may be a hint of what's to come. They have GOT to stem that leak, I don't care how they do it, they have to JUST FIND IT and PLUG IT. What to do about the ruined ceiling and columns? That's a tough one.
And here's another station that's starting to look like Chambers Street- CONEY ISLAND/STILLWELL! Leaks galore everywhere you look, peeling/falling ceilings, powdering concrete the whole 9 yards.
wayne
Well as of yesterday, it was on a flatbed at its original location. Time to say bye-bye?????
BM34x
07/09/2000
[Well as of yesterday, it was on a flatbed at its original location. Time to say bye-bye?????]
You don't mean that old IRT "headhouse" in the triangle at Flatbush/Atlantic and 4th ? The one that says "Atlantic Avenue" in the stonework? Please clarify.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you mean the old IRT Kiosk on the triangle -- chances are it will be back. But first the block it was sitting on has to get a much needed make over.
If I recall correctly, the kiosk is an historic landmark (it was the original entrance to the El structure that stood there at one time). So I believe it cannot be destroyed and/or removed. The flatbedding I'm sure is just temporary until the work is completed on the triangular block it sat on. The Parks department is going to make a nice waiting area (for bus riders), and the restored kiosk will double as a NYCT information station.
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, the space across the street that used to be the Flatbush Ave LIRR terminal will remain a hole in the ground until further notice, so I hear...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I thought there were plans to rebuild on top of the LIRR station again.
[I thought there were plans to rebuild on top of the LIRR station again]
Plans have been floating around for years if not decades. And absolutely nothing has been done. Sort of sounds like the Second Avenue subway.
They could always move Madison Square Garden there when they redo Penn Station.
Snapple Elements MetroCard returns!
per official bulletin will go on sale 7/17/2000 at 7am/ I am gruping stations to save space. Note that stations listed might not get the cards or supervision might transfer cards to a booth not listed.
The stations:
Chambers/WTC/Park Place-E,A,C,2,3
Spring-C,E
West 4- A,C,E,B,D,F,Q
14-A,C,E,L,1,2,3,9,F
34-A,C,E
42-A,C,E,1,2,3,7,9,N,R,S
110-B,C,1,9,6,2,3
116-B,C,6,1,9,6
125-A,B,C,D
207-A
Grand-B,D,Q
E Broadway-F
Delancey/Essex- F,J,M,Z
1 av- L
3 av- L
City Hall-N,R
Prince-N,R
8th-N,R
Union Square-L,4,5,6,N,R
23-N,R,1,9,6
Chambers-1,2,3,9
Canal-1,6
Houston-1,9
Christopher-1,9
18-1,9
96-1,2,3,9
Spring-6
Bleecker/B'way Lafayette-B,D,F,Q,6
Astor-6
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
51/Lex-E,F,6
59/Lex-N,R,4,5,6
68-6
103-6
Does this mean that the cards will be ub the MVM's in these stations (that have them) as well?
I do not know. We do not load the MVMs.
Two questions. Does Metro North go to Wassaic now? And when and where is the R-142 going into service?
MN does go to Wassaic now, the web site and schedule confirm it, and the R-142 will go into service tomorrow, check out Pelham Bay Dave's post on when (I forgot when, but there's some sort of ceremony at Grand Central at 10:AM).
The air conditioning units in Grand Central are on, they cool the station reasonably well, but nowhere near as good as Canal st.
(The air conditioning units in Grand Central are on)
I'll have to take a trip uptown on the third day of the next heat wave. A comparison between the platform at Grand Central and the platform at Time Square ought to show if the expenditure was worth it.
07/09/2000
The air coolers at Grand Central are working and tomorrow there is a ceremony for the R-142? COINCIDENCE?
Bill "Newkirk"
Gee, maybe the left hand knows what the right hand is doing? Something wrong with this?
It will probably work until 5 minutes after the politicians leave.
Was at GCT today and it was much more bearable with these air coolers in place. Got an uptown 5 there at GCT and it felt much hotter at 59th street which has no A/C.
It's still working.
It was noticeably cooler on the platform at GC this afternoon than it was a few minutes earlier at BB. (It was absolute heaven right under the A/C, but even other parts of the platform were a lot cooler than at BB.)
07/10/2000
I was at Grand Central today to check out the air coolers. They are just that, they are not air conditioners. They seem to work fine except when two trains open doors at the same time and people change from express to local. But still much better without the ceiling mounted air coolers. If you study the air discharge and stand against a tile wall, you can feel the flow of cooled air while waiting for your train.
I wonder if these units will run 24-7 or be shut of between 1AM and 5AM? I was told that Brooklyn Bridge had some primitive air cooling system back when the first subway was in it's infancy.
Bill "Newkirk"
Uh, what is the difference between an air cooler and an conditioner???
>>> what is the difference between an air cooler and an conditioner??? <<<
Dave;
Air cooling is just blowing air over a cool surface to lower the temperature of the air. Air conditioning is treating air to control the temperature, humidity, and filtering to remove impurities.
Tom
The units at GCT are air conditioning units. There appears to be a drip return for humidity removed from the cooled air. There are also dust filters in the GCT units. I expect them to clog up rather quickly.
What will NYCT do:
1. clean/replace the filters as often as required (about once per week) to maintian efficient flow and peak performance;
2. let the filters clog and let the ac become dysfunctional;
3. remove the filters entirely and permit the steel dust to embed itself in the cooling fins and destroy the units.
07/11/2000
[The units at GCT are air conditioning units]
Are you sure? They work on some cold water system to cool things down. The use of compressors would even add to the heat on the platforms. Besides, when I was there yesterday, the cooled air felt a little clammy, not dry as with air conditioners. Also, the only sound I heard was the blowers moving the air, not the usual compressor sound.
Bill "Newkirk"
Then that would be an air conditioner using Hydrogen Oxide as a refrigerant. The definition of Air conditioner does not dictate the use of a chlorofluorocarbon or hydrochlorofluorocarbon (phew!).
I spent some time on the platform today waiting for the test train.
There are a LOT of filters to change, and they are not exactly
in an ergonomic location. It will be interesting to see how
often the filters get changed. The platforms are noticeably cooler
but the blower units create a draft and a lot of noise. W
hen a train stands in the
station the hot air coming up from beneath the cars is a slap
in the face.
I will definatly ride Metro North to Wassaic next weekend, and will ride the R-142 as soon as I can. As Homer Simpson says, "Woo Hoo!" This is a great day for subway buffs.Train Buff Headquarters
07/09/2000
I didn't ride the special today, but rather opted to shoot it coming down to and leaving Coney Island. On the first trip (6/18), the special arrived at stillwell about 1:10PM but today arrived about 1:50PM. I was told by someone who rode it that at Jay St/Boro Hall they gave the special the wrong lineup and instead of changing directions and heading down the Culver, it was heading back to Manhattan all the way to 59th/Columbus Cicle to change ends!
A longer ride on the D's but a shorter stay at Coney Island. The D's looked and sounded great!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, we went all the way back to Square One (Columbus Circle) to turn around, no explanation given, then we went back southbound via 6th Avenue and so out the "F" line to Coney Island. The D-Types were in very good condition for their ages (73 years young); while some R32s are suffering from mushy floors, 6019A-B-C seems to be suffering from a mushy CEILING - it looked pretty well patched up. The A/C (i.e. the fans) was on only in 6112C. 6095A-B-C was at the Museum; they were talking about taking them out but didn't. We had a tour of AB #2202; BU #1273, R4 #484 and R11/34 #8013. Some of us wandered around to inspect the other cars, including the R16, R17, R12 and Lo-V.
Steve B will be pleased to hear that the bull & pinion gears got up to F# above middle "C" as we went south on the 8th Avenue line towards 42nd Street. We got the express track on the Culver from just outside of 4th Avenue (we waited at a green/green until the tower gave us the proper lineup) all the way south to around Avenue "X". (we ran local coming back). The train made all the right sounds, including the added bonus of crunchnoisy wheel music which was especially acute on the IND underground lines when we made left-hand turns (i.e. n/b coming into High Street; s/b leaving Chambers St-H&M). It didn't seem to do this on the elevated stretches of the Culver.
I would say there were about 200 people on the trip, including a number of other SubTalkers. We boarded at the centre platfom at 59th Street.
We left Coney Island at 3:56PM, arriving at Columbus Circle at 4:53PM.
wayne
Glad to hear it had a big crowd. Quite frankly, I didn't go because it would cost me twice as much. It can become rather expensive if you bring the kids who are too old for the kids fare.
Wayne, you answered my question before I could even ask it. Hopefully someday I'll get to ride on those BMT masterpieces. Did that train thunder through 42nd St. without breaking stride?
Nope, we sort of coasted through 42nd St because of a revenue train directly in front of us.
--Mark
Correct. The dash was short-lived but fun nevertheless.
We also got going again on the 6th Avenue line between 34th and 23rd (on the local track of all places) (it didn't last either). What really irked me was the presence of GT's in the Culver bypass between 7th Avenue and Church. What on earth are GT's doing THERE, on a straight run?
wayne
One word: paranoia.
One other question: when that train went all the way back to 59th St. the first time, did it go up 6th Ave. or 8th Ave? And if it went up 8th Ave., assuming it was running express, how fast was it going past 23rd St? On those rare instances when I would get a train of R-1/9s, they never got any higher than F# below middle C while skipping that station. Last fall, the first northbound A train I took sailed past 23rd at 25 mph - unheard of for me, anyway.
It went via 8th Avenue express tracks, and we passed 23rd Street at the usual crawl. In fact, I didn't hear him give the motors much of a kick through there, maybe "G" below middle "C" give or take a quarter-tone.
wayne
More often than not, the R-10s would be moving so slowly past that station I could see each individual I-beam. The T/Os must have kept it in switching, if the train wasn't coasting. Other than the upslope approaching 23rd St., the only other reason I could think of would be the switch to the pocket track just past the northern end of the station. I don't ever remember seeing any GTs or WDs at any point.
The southbound run past 23rd St. was and is a different story.
I also opted to do some outside shooting at Coney Island (I was on the upper crossover right over the Culver tracks), and I also saw it at 10:10 when it arrived at 59th and at 5 or so when it returned to 59th. Any Subtalkers in the crowded front cab waving at me? Hopefully I'll post the pics when I get them. I know I saw Wayne-MrSlantR40 (in the blue shirt) and, I think Kevin Walsh (who was either the guy videotaping at the front of a northbound N train right after the Triplex left CI in the Transit Museum shirt or the guy talking to Wayne after the trip). Also attempted to see it at Hoyt side platform in the morning, but missed it (where does it go? Lower Bergen?). I was wondering what was going on when, around 1:20, a B train T/O told me that it had "only left 59th at 12:30;" thanks for clearing that up. Overall, a great day!
Also attempted to see it at Hoyt side platform in the morning, but missed it (where does it go? Lower Bergen?).
We pulled into Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the "A"/"C" line track (probably around 10:45AM), then just beyond, we changed directions and wrong-railed into the Museum on what would be the outbound Museum track (the platform with the tiled pillars).
We left the museum on the same track, got out on the Fulton Express track, got almost to Clinton-Washington then slipped into a 5th track pocket to change directions; we passed through Hoyt going northbound on the "A"/"C" track. We were going to turn around somewhere north of Jay but had to go all the way to 59th Street and beyond to do so. Nobody (including myself) seemed to mind the delay.
wayne
I was on the A train behind, and probably would have seen you guys (again) had the D not arrived first at 59th. Does this mean that they had pulled up the "IRT/el" side of the museum all the way to the front, filling the space where the 142 mockup was?
No we arrived on the OTHER side, the one with the other "D" set, the AB, R1, R4, mock R10, etc. 6112A cuddled right up to her friend 6095C, who was cooling her heels and very dimly lighted inside.
6112A-B-C were in the station; 6019A-B-C were in the tunnel just beyond. The passengers walked through the train until they reached the open doors of 6095C. The road train kept her doors closed.
wayne
That fan trip was great! We got plenty of stares from revenue passengers wondering what was this old timey train doing on the tracks. The D types rode like the way I remebered them, and the sounds that they made brought back memories. I wonder if any of the old IRT cars will get out of the museum confines and sent out to run on an excursion like the one I enjoyed? I know that the wooden cars are forbidden to have passengers in the tunnels, but that does not preclude them from being featured in a trip on say, the Myrtle Ave. line, or the Broadway Line, or any other elevated line? How about it?
Such a trip was planned a few years ago but scrapped because
of a number of problems with the B-Q cars. It would be possible
to operate that trip using the cars as coaches, but making them
run under their own power....I wouldn't hold my breath.
I thought at the time it was an asbestos removal problem - not a power peoblem - that caused the B-Q car trip to be scrapped. The trip originally envisioned using the D-Types to Lefferts Blvd, then a cross-the-platform transfer to the B-Q cars out to the Rockaways.
--Mark
That created a little political problem that got the cars kicked
out of Coney Island shop, but I believe it was the logistics of
the trip itself that caused the cancellation.
Wayne (or any SubTalker on the excursion),
Did the train travel by way of the yard to Stillwell? Hmmm. Trip definitely sounds interesting. I gotta get on the last excursion!!! I'll never get tired of riding those Triplexes.
-Stef
No - we used track M of the Culver Line and then switched to the CI bound local track immediately south of the Ave X station.
--Mark
>>>I know I saw Wayne-MrSlantR40 (in the blue shirt) and, I think
Kevin Walsh (who was either the guy videotaping at the front of a northbound N train right
after the Triplex left CI in the Transit Museum shirt or the guy talking to Wayne after the trip).<<<
Nope, I was shooting Forgotten items in Rosedale, Meadowmere and the Rockaways yesterday...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> or the guy talking to Wayne after the trip).<<<
That was probably Mark Feinberg.
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS I mean, Feinman
Guilty as charged!
--Mark
I wasn't finished - I took an "E" back to Jamaica - it was an R46 and I was stuck in the 8th car (#5708) so I bailed out at Queens Pza to finish taking pictures in the mezzanine; the next "E" was an R32 and I stayed on until Union Tpke. I planned to take pictures in the mezzanine there but three things conspired to thwart me: a) too many people b) too little time c) a wary-eyed policeman. I'll finish up next time.
The R32 was very frisky - #3738 was our lead motor.
wayne
I have a terminal to terminal ride aboard the E train videotaped from WTC to Parsons/Archer. It's quite a run. A G.O. forcing the E to run express between Canal & 42nd ST would have made it perfect, but at the time I was there, there was none in effect (like there was this past weekend).
--Mark
Yep, caught you at the tail end of West 8th St.
I rode both the Astroland Tower and the Wonder Wheel with the videocamera. You don't realize how "fast" the Tower spins (clockwise) unless you view an object through a camera lens. The view was great, but it was difficult to focus on a single object for a long time because of the rate of movement. If you use the windows by the elevator's unused exit door, the glass (or plastic) is unscratched.
It was by far easier to focus through the "cage" of the Wonder Wheel, but you had to time it right to prevent the support beams of the wheel from intruding upon your frame of reference while you rode it.
The breeze up there was mighty refreshing, given how muggy it got yesterday.
Our stay at Stillwell was a bit under 2 hours, even with the unscheduled trip back to 59th St. The reason why that happened was that we were given the wrong lineup at Jay Street and were then unable to change tracks without interfering with revenue trains, so we were going to be transferred at W 4. But due to a G.O. on the IND 8th Ave subway (all express uptown, all local downtown), we were diverted further uptown to 59th St.
A chance to ride the Nostalgia Train under 8th Ave with the natural A/C on (front window down).
Hope it happens again in 2 weeks, July 23rd, 2000, exactly 35 years (to the day) the D-Types stopped running in renevue service.
--Mark
The Airtrain website is really informative and filled with good drawings and pictures. However, there is no indication as to how their "light rail vehicles" will collect current. There would seem to be no indication of overhead current collection devices on either the cars or the structures. Is this a third rail operation?
It's not really light rail. The system is designed to be compatible
with LIRR and NYCTA specifications and uses an over-running
third rail. I believe the voltage is 750.
The system is designed to be compatible with LIRR and NYCTA specifications and uses an over-running third rail. I believe the voltage is 750.
If either of these systems were to use linear induction motors.
Obviously, you can't run linear induction cars over a ROW that is not so equipped (except as trailers, I guess). Can you run more conventionally powered cars that use compatible 3rd rail shoes over an ROW that is equipped for linear induction?
All a linear induction motor right of way has different from a normal one is that there's a metal plate laid dead centre between the running rails. The current collection system is also slightly different, but more detail below.
Current collection:
Electrification is by fourth rail (presumably to avoid problems at switches or other locations where the LIM beneath the cars would cause electrical interference in the running rails which would normally be used as the return current path), but because the area between rails is already occupied by the linear induction motor reaction plate, the current rails can't be configured in London Underground style, but are instead stacked one atop the other beside the track. The current is collected and returned using the vertical surfaces of the powered rails facing the vehicles.
Running conventional vehicles on right of way equipped for LIM use:
If normal trains were equipped with the 4th rail shoes that would make the necessary connections to the charged rails, they could operate without problems, because it is a spinning wheel on a stationary rail like any other train. The linear induction motor's stationary reaction plate between the rails doesn't change anything, unless it poses a clearance problem. In fact, the work cars on the Scarborough RT in Toronto (the 'prototype' line for the LIM technology being used on the Air Train) are conventional rail cars hauled behind a conventional diesel engine. An electric engine powered off of the 4th rail electrification would work, but diesel was chosen to be more practical, since most work is done with the 4th rail power shut off.
Hopefully this answers some of your questions...
-Robert King
Jeff-
Third rail, eh? Thank you. There is no mention of linear induction. I have seen linear inducttion ROWs and there is nothing in the plans or drawings to indicate that this expensive system would be employed. I'll go back over the website and look at some of the trackway cross section elevations to see whether or not a third rail is indicated. Thanks for your response and the others that followed.
My info was based on a presentation made by the Port Authority at
a NYD ERA meeting several years ago. It may be incorrect, but
I never heard anyone mention linear induction traction since.
Reference to the linear induction motors can be obtained at the builder's site.
Imagine the PA forgetting to mention a "minor" detail like that. Well, there goes the compatibility.
Thanks for the URL. It does say LIM for propulsion, and also
states that 750VDC, third rail will be used.
There is also a cryptic reference to underground guideways.
Huh? What part of this system is in subway?
I talked to a friend of mine last night who is an engineer for Bombardier. He does most of the testing work going on now. I found out a few interesting things I don't recall seeing mentioned here before:
The problem with the truck bolts - apparently the solution was not so much longer or stronger bolts, but bolts made with softer metal. They determined that they needed flexibility at that point.
The trains are amazingly complex. 90 separate computer systems. The most important tool in servicing them is a laptop. You can even control traction and braking systems in real-time from a laptop.
We all know about the tilting fiasco. The trains were built to tilt up to 4 degrees, but are now crippled to 3.1 degrees due to clearance issues. The interesting part is that Bombardier believes the trains can tilt safely to 3.4 or 3.5 degrees. They're trying to convince Amtrak right now to let them increase the maximum tilt.
Is there an external jack for the laptop interface? How about an RF interface with the laptop?
I'm not sure what type of interface they use, but I'm sure the train-side connector is behind a locked panel somewhere. Possibly only in the locos.
So, the question would be... What's to stop a malicious SubTalker from hacking into an Acela train and controlling it from his computer??
"Danger Will Robinson!!"
-- David
Boston, MA
(So, the question would be... What's to stop a malicious SubTalker from hacking into an Acela train and controlling it from his computer??)
To paraphrase: So, the question would be... What's to stop a malicious SubTalker from hacking into an R-142 train and controlling it from his computer??
I'm sure the jack(s) are not located somewhere you could get to easily as a passenger.
And, even if you could somehow link in, not having their software, I imagine you'd have to do an awful lot of blind monkeying around to figure out the protocols and thus be able to control anything siginificant.
Today (July 9th) I did a little touring of the 180th Street Yard to see what was going on with the Two new babies to the NYC Transit Fleet, MUCH TO MY SURPRISE THERE WAS 4 SETS OF R142s INSTEAD OF THE USUAL 2.
The other two sets were Bombardier R142s, so now count them off, we (MTA) are now proud owners of Three R142 sets and One R142A Set.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
That'll change my friend. There are R-142A's waiting in the wings to arrive on NYCT property.
-Stef
I have returned from my adventure at Branford, doing what I know best, which is working on the R-17. There's not too much report here other than the fact that I made a 1970's blue stripe dissolve in a stream of paint stripper. It's all gone!!! I made history disappear. Oh well. She's getting stripped down to the bare metal, getting a new coat of primer, and then she'll get her new shade of redbird red. Eventually the pantographs will be removed for work on the ends, as well as some maintenace on the gates themselves. There's still much to be done, but progress is being made. All original paint is off the roof, the sides are completely devoid of redbird paint, and now the ends are being done. Can you imagine what the ends of the car will look like without the pantographs? 6688 will resemble a work car pulled by diesel. Incredible.
Some side notes: My car's out of the shop for the week pending expansion of a section of the shop, which will do good for the personnel. 6688's away in the car barn, but there's was no place for 1689. With 6688 in her place, the R-9 will be outside temporarily.
I couldn't get away without manuevering the car. The R-17 really handles like a champ. The PCC, however gives this car a run for it's money....
-Stef
[I made a 1970's blue stripe dissolve in a stream of paint stripper. It's all gone!!! I made history disappear.]
I'm actually sorry to here that, as it made a good subject matter on the tours, also graffiti was something all the customers remembered, and of course I put a plug in for the October event (NY days).
Mr t__:^)
Are the schedules starting today (even with the cerimonies) or tomorrow when the politicians leave ?
Tomorrow the schedules are suppose to be in effect. The train on the No.6 is suppose to start in service this afternoon at Grand Central.
Thanks and good luck !!
Went to Willis Hobbies in Mineola this Saturday and pick up a interesting copy of "Traction & Prototype Models". Two main articles:
- HBLR with hand drawn system map ... looks more like design for a model layout, but it wasn't the author's intention.
- "World's Largest Traction Layout", it's the same layout that a group of us saw recently at a NJ tractiin show. Article has many photos of layout and names the many of the staff that created the 55 sections/modules & models.
Also was still able to find a copy of July Trains, i.e. Cross Harbor RxR article ... good sized article.
Mr t__:^)
just heard a bulletin on the radio about the city's final preparations for the start of customer service of the r-142's
1) all east side hospitals are on level 1 emergency alert
2) the red cross has a more than an adequate whole blood supply ready for any unfortunate accident...
3) the media has every station along the #6 line armed with reporters and photographers with satellite hook-ups
4) all customers entering the r-142's will be given a souvenir rabbit's foot and army dog tags in the event of an inferno
5) mta car purchasing department is writing up an order for approximately 700 low-v cars with pullman built to the original 1920 trouble free standards
6) all railfans not planning on riding the new equipment are asked to consider if they would be willing to contribute any bodily organs that they currently are not using...
7) all religions are asked to ring their bells or blow their shofars at 11 o'clock this morning to remind all new yorkers to pray the souls of the passengers...
8) subway_crash_means_millions_for_transit after a few well chosen words is scheduled to break a ceremonial bottle of champagne over the heads of the mta board
9) heypaul will be taken into protective police custody at the half moon hotel in coney island out of concerns for his safety after putting up this post... he will be put into the arnold shuster suite at the hotel and will enjoy the cooling sea breezes through the open windows
heypaul you forgot #10 - person involved in hit and run w/Guiliani's motorcade yesterday will be conductor on the first run.
Peace,
ANDEE
Correction -- The T/O !!
heypaul, you are a sick and twisted individual....so keep up the good work.
Just thought you could use the incouragement!
I almost caused heads to turn at my job when I started to belly-laugh at #6!!
LOL!!!
Doug aka BMTman
[all railfans not planning on riding the new equipment are asked to consider if they would be willing to contribute any bodily organs that they currently are not using...]
Salaamallah said he would donate his brain, but his generous offer had to be declined after medical tests revealed that he didn't have one.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
I fell of my chair (I'm typing this from the floor.) reading this. If there's an Acadamy Award of Railfandom heypaul should win hands down.
BRAVO!! BRAVO!!!
ENCORE!! ENCORE!!
Every bulletin board should have a heypaul.:-)
Yesterday I went down to Winslow Jct to do some railfanning. Well after waiting and waiting for an NJT train I went down to the SJRR yard. Of course 5 min after I left an NJT train showed up and I was only able to view it from afar. I was surprised to see that it consisted entirely of COMET IV coaches, something I have never seen b4 on the AC line. However right after the 1st train passed with its COMETS an eastbound went by with a consist of all ARROW I cab cars. It looks like NJT is really scrambling to find cars to cover the summer rush.
"an eastbound went by with a consist of all ARROW I cab cars."
I've NEVER seen a train of all Arrow IA/IB cars (or all cab cars for that matter)! How many cars were on that train?
I've seen a train of all Arrow IBs (on the NJC) and all cabs (Comet I, Comet II, Arrow Ia on the ML). Both trains were 3 cars long, but it counts.
Well I am not sure that they were all cabs, but they were all arrow I cars (all stainless steel). The train was 4 cars long, and I know that NJT often ues Arrow I cab cars on the AC line.
I saw the train with 4 Comet IV's this AM approaching 30th St Station. It appeared as though there were 2 coaches sandwiching one cab car, with another cab at the rear (train was in 'pull' mode). I often see this trip (arriving 30th St around 7:30 every morning) and have not seen IV's before today. The usual consist is Comet III's with the occasional Arrow cab unit.
Dear friends, is the "M" reverting to terminating at B'way -Myrtle beginning 7/17/00? Will the weekend shuttle service continue afterwards? I read two conflicting posters on this.
After getting off from work late last night, I spoke to a motorman who told me about some changes coming up for the subway system when the new pick for jobs comes up for the winter session.
He said that the 63rd Street Connector is basically completed with the third rail in place (but no power yet; test trains are being taken through the area by diesel-powered engines), and the signals are set up. According to him, the Q will become a 24-hour service operating through the connector to 179th Street, Jamaica. During this time, the G will operate between Court Square, Queens and Smith-9th Streets, Brooklyn. It will become an OPTO line 24 hours a day.
He also stated that the Stllwell Avenue-Coney Island station will be closed for approximately 3 years. During this time, D/Q trains will terminate at Brighton Beach, and the B will terminate at Bay Parkway (which is why they are building a new site there for the dispatch offices and crew quarters). No word yet on where the N will terminate. Shuttle buses will provide service to the stations that won't be serviced by those trains.
Are they prepared to have hundreds upon hundreds of busses to handle the crowds going to Coney Island during the summer. The busses will probable last 1 weekend each before they are torn apart !!!!!
According to him, the Q will become a 24-hour service operating through the connector to 179th Street, Jamaica
24 hour express on the Brighton Line? Or wil they cut the Q back to 2nd Ave (Manhattan) overnight, I wonder?
He also stated that the Stllwell Avenue-Coney Island station will be closed for approximately 3 years.
I can't imagine this happening because Stillwell Ave handles a LOT of beach traffic during the summer. But if the entire structure is going to rebuilt I guess it can.
I suppose the B & N would be cut back to Bay 50th and 86th Street, respectively, and the D & F would be cut back to Bay 8th St with a temporary crossover erected so these trains could discharge people on the Stillwell Ave bound platform and pick up passengers on the Manhattan bound platform.
I would expect D service to be supplanted to make up for the loss of B & N service, though it was pretty bad at about 4pm yesterday (Sunday 7/9) - the gap train had to be taken into service because of delays.
--Mark
and the D & F would be cut back to Bay 8th St with a temporary crossover
The D and F don't go anywhere near Bay 8th Street
"The D and F don't go anywhere near Bay 8th Street"
Umm, West 8th Street/NY Aquarium.
That's not Bay 8th Street.
OK, sorry, I goofed. I meant West 8th Street but typed something else instead.
--Mark
The MB is scheduled to switch sides before opening of the connector. So the cutback would be to Canal instead of 2nd av. But the whole thing is still widely speculative. To me what makes it more intriguing is the switching of sides together with the car shortage. The 63rd street connector will be the biggest waste of money ever by the MTA if a Queens Blvd. exp. (Q?) does not use it. Because of the bridge and car situation (and no place to reverse B-south and D-south Broadway trains in midtown?) I wonder if the 63rd St. connector can be put to its only useful purpose.
3 years?!? OI VEY!!!!!! OTOH, that station does need some work. Wasn't one of the platforms rebuilt not too long ago?
The steelwork approching from the southern end (B and N lines approach in this direction) was completely replaced in 1993-94. During that time, the West End and Sea Beach platforms were closed accordingly, and the N was cut back to 86th St.
I don't believe that they would have to cut 100% of service to Stillwell for a major rehab. With 4 platforms, the B or N line could still be run into Stillwell, using whatever platform that isn't being rehabbed, or one which has been completed.
They don't have to remove all service from Stillwell Terminal, and they won't. SOMEthing will be running through there at all times.
David
There are enough options, it just takes some creative switching and perhaps a temporary track installation. Of the 8 tracks at Stillwell, all 8 go (compass) north. 3 go south to the upper level, and 2 go south to the lower level. Your only train that currently doesn't have an alternate platform is the F, which can easily terminate at West 8 for a transfer to the D. You simply close 1/2 tracks and one platform at a time, and you have no problem maintaining service. The only reason they should ever need to do a complete shutdown would be if the whole thing was on a large span beam, and it was rotting. But it's not.
-Hank
Stillwell Ave. closed for three years?!? I can see closing down one or two lines at a time while they rebuild the station in stages, but shutting the entire terminal down for three whole years? It doesn't seem practical to me.
At a minimum, NYCT would need to reopen part of the terminal during the summer to handle the beach crowds. The crowds at West 8th on a 'sunny summer Sunday' would make the infamous 72 St. IRT station look like a Franklin Shuttle platform at 3 AM by comparison ...
- Jim (RailBus)
The entire terminal will be demolished, and a new one built from the ground up.
(The entire terminal will be demolished, and a new one built from the ground up.)
I hope that commercial space is part of the plan. Anyone hear?
07/10/2000
[The entire terminal will be demolished, and a new one built from the ground up.]
I wonder if it took three years to build the current terminal !
Bill "Newkirk"
I would think if they could tear down and rebuild Penn Station without stopping LIRR and Pennsylvania Railroad service between 1963-68 (actually more like 1992 for the rebuild work on the LIRR section), they can figure out how to run some type of limited service in and out of Stillwell during the construction period.
(I would think if they could tear down and rebuild Penn Station without stopping LIRR and Pennsylvania Railroad service between 1963-68, they can figure out how to run some type of limited service in and out of Stillwell during the construction period.)
The MTA's new policy seems to be complete shutdown, and I agree with it. The construction is much faster, and much cheaper, and the results better. You can live with disruption, if it's duration is known and limited. Just think of all the "benefits" New York has gained from keeping the Manhanttan Bridge open.
"The MTA's new policy seems to be complete shutdown, and I agree with it. The construction is much faster, and much cheaper, and the results better."
Agreed. But there's another alternative from either shutting down Stillwell wholesale and slowly working around the passengers. If the work is really going to take as much as three years, the TA could build a temporary terminal.* No amenities, no concession stands, just a spartan station house with the bare necessities (MVMs, turnstiles, token booth, maybe a few payphones, newspaper machines, and a soda machine) and stairs leading up to wooden platforms with simple corrugated iron canopies.
The advantages are clear:
1) People would be willing to put up with the lack of creature comforts to be able to ride essentially all the way to Coney Island rather than changing to shuttle buses some distance away. Not that people won't complain (it IS New York, after all) but they would complain much less about a temporary station than they would about bus shuttling from 86th Street on the N, for example.
2) The TA would save on having to operate shuttle buses, which sap buses and drivers from other parts of the system.
3) Shuttle buses are not a long term solution. The continuous "round robin" of buses needed to substitute for Ls or subways creates parking, traffic, and pollution (air and noise) problems in the neighborhood, bearing no resemblance to the negligible side effects of regular bus service. It's acceptable when it's for a few hours or a couple of weekend days due to a sudden disruption in train service or a relatively brief G.O.. But neighbors understandably balk at the prospect of a bus relay for several weeks or months, not to mind three years. That isn't NIMBYism, it's a reasonable defense of quality of life. (A tip of the hat to you, Pigs.)
When CTA built a new station at Davis Street on the Purple Line, which is basically the stop for downtown Evanston, they built a temporary station just north of the old station, then tore the old station down and built its replacement. And the Davis Street project was a good bit less than three years. Of course, Davis Street is no Stillwell Avenue, but the principle is the same.
*I don't know Stillwell, but I get the impression that trains come into it from both sides. If that's the case, they could build two temporary stations, one on each side of the existing station. I doubt many people use Stillwell Avenue to change trains, but if they do, you could allow free transfers from the one temporary Stillwell terminal to the other.
(the TA could build a temporary terminal.)
The thing is, most subway riders in the Coney Island area are now residents heading in, not beachgoers heading out. And there is a station a couple of blocks way -- at W 8th St. -- to satisfy their needs. Most Stillwell riders are already taking the bus (former trolley) from the projects to the west anyway.
As for beachgoers, those traveling from places other than southwest Broooklyn can take the F or D. So the only real beneficiaries of a temporary station are those heading to/from the beach from Boro Park, Sunset Park, Bensonhurst, and Bay Ridge. Not a large number.
Thats' why I think ridership at Stillwell is a shadow of its former self. I hope they turn the whole thing into commercial development with accessory rail, not the other way around, so riders would be attracted year round. It worked in GCT. The demographic is different, but it could still work.
West 8th could certainly take on "terminal duties" for a limited duration. That would take care of the D & F lines. The tracks south (west) of the W 8th St station could be used to turn the trains around. A temporary crossover could handle that (the one currently there is too close to Stillwell).
Perhaps service on the D & F could be supplanted during the beach season to handle alternate loading from the B and N lines, which would drop people off too far from the beach area to walk, and whose crowding would make shuttle buses impractical.
--Mark
How would that impact yard access, especially for the D and Q? Will we have D trains laid up along the Brighton Express tracks overnight?
Good point. I have no idea, but a bypass track temporarily built for the duration of the construction is not out of the question.
--Mark
Not quite the same, but on a similar scale are the Newark Airport and Secaucus Transfer stops under contructon on the NEC. Both are being built while trains zipby at 40-60 MPH.
-Hank
...newspaper machines, and a soda machine
Why would the temporary station have more amenities than any New York city subway station?
The B and N trains approach Stillwell Avenue from its north end while the D and F trains approach it from the east and south (there is a very tight curve right at the south end of the station which turns east leaving the station).
The tracks that leave going north are the outside four; the inside four leave via the south end.
wayne
I like that idea. We could terminate the D and F at West 8th and keep either the N or the B platform (use both trains but only one of the plats). Build a temporary stair to the other booth in the bus lanes. You could then close the other 3 platforms and the main terminal. When the main terminal reopens then you close the B or N platform (the one you kept) and use the other B or N platform for both B and N.
Of course as a preliminary you'd build a temporary crossobver at West8th for D and F and the temporary stairs to the "back" booth by the bus lanes.The crossover could be done after Labor Day and the stairway also in one weekend. (While it is being built use the other B or N platform).
I believe west 8th has a crossunder already.
a Crossunder -yes. I should have said track crossovers (ie- switches to allow change of tracks to use as a temporary terminal.)
Where will everything terminate and how will people get to Stillwell. I can see busses on Stillwell and Surf Ave for the B-D-F but what about the N?
Let Fred take the Brighton. You said yourself that when you rode the N out to Coney Island nobody was on the train.
The N line is the least used line to/from Stillwell, probably because it doesn't run over the bridge.
And also because it is sandwiched by the B and F for much of its route.
And the F does?!
The F is the only line that connects into the IND system in Brooklyn. The N merely is another way to get to/thru Dekalb Ave.
If the Culver line retained it's pre 1954 configuration, I'd say it would be the least used line to Coney Island.
THE B/D/Q MAKE CONNECTIONS TO THE A AT WEST 4TH. DID YOU MEAN ONLY IN BROOKLYN DID THE F MAKE IND CONNECTIONS?
If the Culver line retained it's pre 1954 configuration, I'd say it would be the least used line to Coney Island.
The Culver always seems to be a BMT stepchild. It received power from Brighton Line substations. It used wooden equipment and forced equipment changes due to the Steel Car shortage. AT least with the IND South Brooklyn Line connection, it got some respect.
--Mark
The N line is the least used line to/from Stillwell, probably because it doesn't run over the bridge.
More likely because the local ride from Coney Island and Bensonhurst into Manhattan is so *(#^*(# long. If it would run express under 4th avenue all the time, it might see a bit more patronage.
--Mark
I said I was the only thru passenger from Court St, people rode the train, but only to intermediate destinations, almost everyone got off at DeKalb to connect to the D across the platform, or Pacific to wait for the B
Right, but nobody except yourself stayed on until Coney Island.
Only 6 people got off a Stillwell from my car, and they all got on South of 59th St. Plenty of Local people getting on and off between, but no thru people that I saw. But as I said, that was my car, who knew what was in the other 7 cars, but I would say maybe 20-25 people got off the train at the last stop because I was at the ramp
N terminates at 86th St. Shuttle buses will run from there to Stillwell. Its been done before.
... but not for 3 years!
--Mark
Unnecessary and radical, unless structural integrity calls for it.
So where did you learn of this plan?
It may indeed; the entire metalwork above the entranceway seems to be rusting away and the concrete in the stairs/ramps is powdering to dust. It almost looks like Chambers Street in there. Perhaps they can kee ONE platform open (I'd pick one that runs through the station) but it will be tough. The place is in bad shape and it's getting worse.
Let's hope they preserve the facade with the original "BMT Lines" plaques or at least restore them.
wayne
There may be enough space north of the station to build temporary platforms for the B and N trains to stop at, while the regular platforms at Stilwell are being redone.
Don't know how they'll handle the D and the F without cutting them back to at least West Eighth, but I'm sure at least one line in some manner is going to continue to serve the area no matter how much work they're doing at any given time to the station.
West 8th Street isn't all that far away from Stillwell. They might have to build some temporary crossovers south of Neptune and west of Ocean Parkway in order to turn trains there.
The platforms and canopies at Stillwell aren't the problem, it's whats underneath them. The rampways' walls and ceilings are slowly turning into rust and dust. You should see the atrocious ceiling above the passageways to Surf Avenue! Filthy and absolutely rotten to the core; and the station is also inhabited by hundreds and hundreds of pigeons, who crap and poop all over everything in sight. It's despicable.
wayne
Forget that - I walked UNDER the station along Stillwell Ave this past Sunday. Not good. The section in the best shape is the B platforms because they're on a typical steel "EL" structure. The rest? Forggeddabouddit!
--Mark
Replacing the plaques is useless. Saving them is preserving history. Replacing them with replicas is just wasting money on aesthetic reactionism.
The big thing for me would be inclusion of as much commercial space as possible. Stillwell is much bigger than it needs to be just for trains, since you don't have 1,000,000 people showing up by subway anymore.
But NYC needs commercial space. How about all that parking under the tracks? Could it be used for a large store? And there has been some talk of a public bath-house. Why not put it in there? Paid public restrooms would be nice. So would entertainment venues -- all legal pursuant to zoning.
I'd also like to see a pedestrian overpass to the beach a la W 8th Street, but with a canopy.
The stores along Stillwell wouldn't be too happy about a direct walkway.
Now that you mention parking, what about a park and ride? New York has too few of those (actually, only one. Rockaway Parkway) and it's a key, highway accessible location. However, it isn't the best location, Sheepshead Bay wins that contest hands down, but there is no room there unless one builds a multilevel monolith above the Belt Parkway at a spectacular cost, both monetary and aesthetic.
If a subway is ever built down Utica Avenue to Kings Plaza, the Kings Plaza garage would be a prime Park and Ride candidate, although much of the reason for it would be lost.
>>> what about a park and ride? New York has too few of those (actually, only one. Rockaway Parkway) <<<
Isn't Shea Stadium's parking area used as a park & ride? It was when the stadium was first built.
Tom
> unless one builds a multilevel monolith above the Belt Parkway
They've done this in Boston at quite a few stations on the Red Line (Alewife, Quincy Center for instance). So why not in NYC?
-Dave
I think that a Bell Atlantic yard adjacent to the station is a better place to build. There's only one thing to evict, and the facility can move to a new lot elsewhere (basically, it can be anywhere, the park and ride cannot). It would have direct ramps from the Parkway (exit 8A), and a VMS (Variable Message Sign) would tell people whether the lot is full or not.
I'm not familiar with the facility in question, but if it's any sort of switching facility for Bell Atlantic, there would be a large number of telephone trunk lines that would need to be reckoned with. Those are not easy to relocate.
-- David
Boston, MA
And the one at Prince George's Pza, just outside of DC on the Green Line isn't that bad. It all depends on how it's built.
wayne
07/11/2000
[But NYC needs commercial space. How about all that parking under the tracks? Could it be used for a large store? ]
My bet is for the new Stillwell Terminal, most of the wasted space underneath will be utilized for for buses. All buses that terminate or pass the terminal will be underneath for a easy transfer to the subway out of the elements.
Bill "Newkirk"
OK, I agree with that perspective. Perhaps before construction begins at that area of the station, they should be taken down and handed over to an artisan who is skilled in the repair and restoration of such artifacts, as they DO need some repair. Nothing terribly major, but some of the green glaze on the faience has chipped off and has to be repaired. They are a part of the history of the station, and as such do merit preservation.
The same people who did the repair of the IRT's original plaques could be qualified to handle these items as well, as they did expert work. Their name is listed on an exhibit at the Transit Museum - "Friends of Terra Cotta" is one association they are affiliated with, but dopey me FORGOT THE FIRM'S NAME! And I saw it right there in front of me...
wayne
While you're at it, tell them to preserve the old sign pointing to West End and Culver elevated trains to New York just before the token booth .....
--Mark
There was an old sign at 36th St on the downtown platform which had a box with a lighted sign denoting Sea Beach, Culver, West End and Bay Ridge trains. It disappeared about 10 years ago. When I first saw it, I had no idea what "Culver" meant ...
Sadly the Culver name fell into disuse for the line when the D train took it over in l954. For the public anyway that name was limited to the 2-bit shuttle run [9th Ave-Ditmas] although for General Orders on the D or F service it was used. I was pleased that after so many years [with the abandonment of the Culver Suttle] that the name was restored as a designation for the present day F service, as the gods of the BMT would wish! History lives. Named for Andrew Culver by the way, who built the original steam, surface line in the late l800's.
The first time I saw the F line referred to as the "Culver" line was on the 12/88 map. It's funny that the 1979 style maps before then referred to the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton lines by their name, but not the Culver.
I have to backtrack a little to the early days od D train operation to Coney; the big sign facing [I should remember] Surf Ave.(?) did mention Concourse-Culver along with the other routes. But the name was n't used except for the shuttle [unfortunately] until the shuttle was abandoned. I'm probably repeating myself though.
Yes - the sign is along the right side of the corridor after the (now closed) food vendors, use the right (as in side, not "correct) entrance on Surf Ave.
--Mark
I remember the only people in 1954 and after who refered to the D as the Culver were the people who used it, Most people called it the IND or D Train, since It was the Only IND in the Southern Div. The Culver was refered to the remaining portion at Ditmas and North. The remaining 4 lines were still called their old names, not the Broadway Lines, But Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and 4th Ave. Even the City called the D the 6th Ave-Concourse-Coney Island Line, and the Culver the remaieing parts,
I remember that sign too ! Actually, I was thinking about it when my B train was crawling into 36St.
Today, I saw something interesting going into work @ Midnight. I was riding to Manhattan on an N train, which was being rerouted to Queensbridge due to night construction on Broadway. When the train stopped on the express tracks @ Dekalb Ave, the line indicator light at Dekalb indicated:
Via Bridge
Broadway(!!!!)
How refreshing that was to see ! Amazing that the light bulbs in there still work after 10 years..lol. I wonder if anyone on the train or on the platform understood what it should have meant?
I doubt that many people look at the signs anymore. I don't. Most people I see get on either a bridge train or a tunnel train. The sign on the Brooklyn-bound platform is more useful though because the lines split and the separation of the express and local.
They'll be doing that every weekend until August, I'm going to try and get a picture of the N next to 'Via Bridge, Broadway'.
Henry,
Can you e-mail me a copy? You never know, we may never have that opportunity again, the way things have been...LOL.
I'm a bit puzzled by the "express tracks" at DeKalb. Disregarding the bypass tracks, the "express" tracks lead to the Montague St. tunnel while the "local" tracks against the wall lead to the bridge. That wasn't the case before DeKalb was rebuilt. Since I wasn't around the subway scene before the DeKalb complex was rebuilt, maybe someone else can shed some light as to whether or not those illuminated signs were updated at the same time. I have seen those signs, too, BTW.
I believe that pre-1954, there wasn't much difference on what track, express or local, a train used at Dekalb, as switches existed both north and south of the station that allowed trains to access both river crossings from any track. I believe that the Brighton line used to be able to access the "bypass" tracks during this time as well.
I am not certain, but it seems to me also that there is physically, but without track, a by-pass access to Brighton line trains between Atlantic Av. and Dekalb Av. Northbound, there is an opening in the wall on the left side between the left-hand curve out of Atlantic and before the right-hand curve into Dekalb. Anyone have any definite information on this?
07/14/2000
I believe that Brighton access to the DeKalb bypass was severed when DeKalb was reconstructed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Prior to the reconstruction of DeKalb Avenue, I remember seeing the bypass tracks through a holes in wall when the Brighton trains approached DeKalb northbound. They seemed to me to be below the grade of the Brighton tracks and therefore would not be accessible. Also, I don't remember ever seeing any switches south of the station. The Brighton trains always entered on the inside "express" track and the 4th Avenue local on the outside track. If there were switches, it would have made sense for the two lines to come into DeKalb on the opposite tracks. I also remember that the Brighton Express always waited for the 4th Avenue to cross over first to the tunnel track before the Brighton crossed over to the bridge track.
ok, The trains from the Brighton Lineboth local and express came in the inside track, and from 4th Ave came in from the Outside Track. The crossover was the North end of the station. During the 50s the Sea Beach Used the Bypass Tracks. The Brighton DID have access to the bypass tracks. The Switch north of Atlantic Ave, the bypass trains used the left track, and the trains to DeKalb used the right track. But I do not ever remember the Brighton Using the By-Pass Tracks unless of an emergency. When they Used the Franklin to go to Manhatten on Summer Sundays, the Train used the bypass tracks. One of the reasons for the the reconstruction of DeKalb in the 50s-60s was to stop the bottle neck at DeKalb, the same reason on the IRT Bdwy Line at 96th St they eliminated the 1 Express, switch overs.
The switch north of the station (the area now in the station where there is no wall between the tracks) was for TUNNEL trains to use the bypass. I'm not sure if the Brighton connected to the bypass, but if it did, then it would take the left (tunnel bound) track, and cross over where the bypass comes up next to it. But someone says the tracks are not at grade with each other, and I don't remember if there is a gap in the wall where such a connection would have been, so I'm not sure.
"The Switch north of Atlantic Ave.." That's what I was waiting to read. So that opening in the wall on the left was the access of the Brighton line tracks to the by-pass tracks, but the switch and tracks have been removed.
Just going on second hand information from old timers any route could be accessed by the bypass tracks..I don't know if that meant both directions, e.g. tunnel or bridge*. On the subject: OK, a curve ball.... anybody remember when Myrtle Ave. station was in use? One side of it has vanished. I don't remember this, but to confirm the many routings... does anyone remember an interlocking signal with a BLUE bottom light? I don't but somewhere in the De kalb area there was such a signal to designate a 3rd route [since normally only green or yellow showed routings.]* bridge as in north or south side??
Myrtle Avenue closed in 1956 when the tracks north of DeKalb were reconfigured and the one platform was demolished. There's more information in the FAQ.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you look in the old rule books for the train crews, there is a reference for such a signal with a blue indication for a third route just north of Dekalb Ave. station on the BMT lines. That signal went out when a special bypass was constructed to allow N express trains using the now unused tracks of the Manhattan bridge to skip Dekalb Ave. station via the inneer tracks during rush hours. That bypass also did away with the southern half of the old Myrtle Ave. station.
The by pass can be used in either direction, even from the trains coming to and from the tunnel.
according to Joe Cunningham's theory:
DeKalb was built as a local station- the bypass tracks were express adn the current express tracks for trains that stopped at DeKalb. When the Brighton was extended they took down the wall, leaving island platforms. Before the station was lengthened, the bypass tracks were totally behind a tile wall.
Dekalb was meant to be a local stop on the 4th Ave. line, with the express tracks (the present day "bypass tracks") crossing over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to Chambers St and the local (now the tunnel tracks) running over the north side along the never built Canal St subway. This part of the line was already built before the Dual Contracts as part of the Triboro system.
07/13/2000
[I remember that sign too !]
Does anybody remember a similar sign on the north end of the northbound side of Pacific St.? Although not illuminated in many years, there may have been an access door allowing some ambient light to enter a expose one of the boxes. This box said "LAWRENCE ST.". That's right! Before DeKalb was rebuilt there was a time when a train using the bypass tracks could cross over and access the Montague St. tunnel. The big giveaway, a wide open area minus columns making room for a crossover.
Bill "Newkirk"
It would also doom many seasonal business operators at CI who depend on the crowds subway service brings into the area during the summer. Community opposition would be immense.
Add the Manhattan Bridge into this... you have some even more confusing service!!! Uh oh.
No Train Operator, no Conductor, no Customer Service Agent, no (fill in Civil Service title here) knows what the service plan for 63 St will be, since the plan has not been released! It will be released this coming October, at which time all of us will know what will be proposed. The plan will require public hearings, to be held in January 2001, so even what's presented in October may not be the final word.
Please, I beg all of you: stop listening to what you hear "on the road." It's sheer speculation, and the chances of it being wrong are FAR better than the chances of it being right.
David
People are panicing about the complete closure of Stilwell Ave. already based on this thread, and most people should know better. It'll never happen like that.
I'm still waiting to see those 6 car J trains someone with "reliable information" stated would exist after the bridge re-opened last September.
I think this will be a good plan for the 63rd Street Connection and the Manhattan Bridge switching sides for 2001:
(B) Central Park West Local/ 6th Avenue Express
Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx (Rush hours)
145th Street, Manhattan (Weekdays 9am-4pm, 8pm-9pm)
Jamaica Center, Queens (All other times)
Grand Street, Manhattan (All Times)
(Express Forest Hills to 21st Street-Queensbridge and in Manhattan.)
(D) Concourse-6th Avenue-Culver Express
205th Street, Bronx
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times, via F route West 4th Street to Coney Island. Express Jay Street to Church Avenue.)
(E) Queens Express/ 8th Avenue Local
Jamaica Center, Queens
World Trade Center, Manhattan
(All Times, Local east of Forest Hills evenings, nights & weekends.)
(F) Queens Express/ 6th Avenue Local
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times, Local in Queens 24 hours a day, Local in Manhattan and Brooklyn, replacing the G in Queens.)
(G) Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
Court Square, Queens
Church Avenue, Brooklyn
(All Times)
(M) Myrtle Avenue-Chambers-Nassau-West End Local via Nassau Street Loop
Metropolitan Avenue, Queens (All Times)
Myrtle Avenue, Brooklyn (Evenings, nights & Weekends)
Chambers Street, Manhattan (Weekdays 9am-3pm)
Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (Rush hours)
(N) Broadway-Sea Beach Express via Manhattan Bridge
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times. Express in 57th Street to Canal Street all times. Express in Brooklyn, skipping DeKalb Avenue Weekdays 6am-9pm only.)
(Q) Broadway-Brighton Express via Manhattan Bridge
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(Weekdays 6am-9pm. Express 179th Street to 21st Street-Queensbridge, Express 57th Street to Canal Street, Express Prospect Park to Brighton Beach.)
(R) Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Montague Street Tunnel
71st-Continental Avenue, Queens
95th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn
(All Times)
(T) Broadway-West End Express via Manhattan Bridge
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens (Rush Hours only)
Queensborough Plaza, Queens (Weekdays 9am-3pm)
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (All other times, when the Q is not running.)
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(Express Forest Hills to 21st Street-Queensbridge, Express 57th Street to Canal Street all times. Express in Brooklyn, skipping DeKalb Avenue 6am to 12midnight daily.)
(W) Broadway-Brighton Local via Montague Street Tunnel
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times)
The Southern half of today's B and D trains should be relettered to T and W respectively to avoid confusion.
Interesting plan. Only 2 problems that I can see: overloading of Astoria terminal and need to switch the bulk of trains per hour (now 12 on E, 18 on F) to E as Broadway Exp. would not be able to handle more than 14 Q (10 T + 6 N = 16, max. possible is 30). Probably much better 12 for Q and 18 for E.
This is a great idea. However, you have to understand that this will require a large increase of trains, drivers, etc. for these new services. Thus, it will be more costly, and the stingy MTA may not go for the added expense.
Also, it does not seem necessary to provide the "W" train so far north, since Astoria is not overcrowded. Perhaps if the "W" train terminated at 57/7th, there can be extra trains, combined with the cut in "G" service to sq