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Now that I've gotten you're attention, forever means a week.
I will be posting next saturday and will attend that chat (that's why I rescheduled this week's to tonight).
Now before you break out the bottles of champagne and other celebratory materials, I might be reading (or even posting) during the week anyway, probably at least once I'll check to see anything interesting.
And I'll be checking my e-mail.
Riding the E train this past Wednesday, I noticed some work going on in the southbound (westbound) tunnel between 53rd St / 5th Ave & 53rd St / 7th Ave. Whatever was being erected on both sides of the tunnel had green posterboard signs with the words "do not touch" hand written. What is going on in that area that "can't be touched"? Electrical conduit work?
Second, some posters mentioned that the lower level of 42nd St / 8th Ave was "severed" from the rest of the IND 8th Ave subway. I tried to pay close attention looking at the connection to the lower level, and, to me at least, the switch still looked like it was in, and the track still appeared to be in place. So if this track connection was severed, where was the cut made? In the station itself?
--Mark
Tomorrow, you might get a closer look, the E trains will continue straight on that switch for 50 more feet before curving left onto the 8th ave express. The signal that is almost always RED - RED will display Green - Yellow. The normally Green-Yellow signal will show Green - Green. All in all, a good time for signal photos.
It sounds as if the access switch to the southbound express track will remain in place no matter what. If the connection to the lower level is severed at that point, that particular switch whose interlocking signal is normally red over red could be removed.
Mark, I believe it's been severed at the southern end. If I remember an earlier post correctly, the frog was showing excessive wear and was replaced with straight rail, although the remainder of the switch may still be intact.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be back on the line tomorrow (July 3rd) so I'll try to get a better look.
Thanks.
--Mark
Dandy indeed that the High-V's and Low-V's were in a few movies. The best of all even if a boring show was the FBI Story with James Stewart with many good Low-V scenes, mostly on Jerome. I'm positive the onboard scene was studio stuff [background lights in tunnels: they had dim incandescents then];House on 92 St had a few around 125-Broadway; Luck of the Irish, a very cute story by the way; and I'm almost sure Sorry, Wrong Number had a few, haven't seen it in a while. Towards the end there was a quote "when the train goes over the bridge",with the Queensboro in the background. Indeed there was a set of lights that looked like a train..too far away to see other than the lights: one thing though, the movie was made in l947 and the last train on that bridge was in l942.
Another place where the IRT is seen, although in altered form:
---The 1930's Max Fleischer cartoons!
In particular: a Betty Boop cartoon entitled "Riding The Rails" (1938), in which Betty's dog Pudgy follows her to work on the IRT. The cast-iron and glass kiosks, the shrill whistles, and what looks like Lo-V's (or are they Hi-V's?)are prominently featured. It was easy for the Fleischer animators to find the models: when this cartoon was in production (in 1937), the Fleischer studio was located in the Studebaker Building just north of Times Square.
>>> The best of all even if a boring show was the FBI Story with James Stewart with many good Low-V scenes, mostly on Jerome. I'm positive the onboard scene was studio stuff
Ed;
I wrote the review of "The FBI Story" located in the bibliography section of this website.
NYC SUBWAY BIBLIOGRAPHY
As noted therein, there was less than 5 minutes of subway footage which came after 133 minutes of a 149 minute film, but a true subway buff would do well to rent the tape just to see those five minutes.
I do think the interior shot of the Low-V is authentic although it was enhanced by movie lighting, and probably the train was stationary when the interior close up was shot, with movie magic providing the moving tunnel lights.
Tom
The link in my previous post should have been:
Box Office Films, Documentaries & Television Episodes
Tom
When I got home last night I flipped on the box and there's "Meteor", the 1979 Sean Connery/Karl Malden destructo-fest. Toward the end, they're trapped in a NYC subway tunnel, and Connery finds an old subway car. Looks pretty realistic too, with gray exterior, blue stripe, blue-gray interior with pink benches. Which R- would that be?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sounds like an R-26/28 or R-27/30 unit, going by the pink benches. Of course, by 1979 all those cars had gotten the green-and-gray interior treatment, so the unit in question may have been from the subway museum, if it wasn't a Hollywood sound stage mock-up.
hello, there; Can anyone answer why the M is "cut back to Chambers St., while the J is "extended" to Broad St. (for 7/1 to 7/3)?
Because of a GO, the M cannot use Myrtle Ave. as it's southern terminal. However, this holiday weekend, the trackwork being done at the Myrtle Ave. junction has been cancelled. I believe that the plan you describe is the only realistic way to provide normal service while the switch being replaced is still unfinished.
Reminds me of the old Myrtle/Chambers service back when the lower portion of the Myrtle Ave. El was still around. "You take the wooden train (Q's) to downtown Brooklyn and the steel train (Standards) to Manhattan"
The J goes to Broad St. and the M doesn't go that far because, most likely, the Broad St. Station isn't that heavily used in midday and it also allows the two trains to not have to be on a perfectly synchronized schedule when they turn around in Manhattan. And most people coming from Williamsburg change at Essex St. for the F train for the West Side or Chambers St. for the 4/5/6 for the East Side anyway.
Now, I really wish they'd build a set of switch tracks at 7th Avenue on the F line so G trains could go to 7th Avenue and allow an easy transfer from the 4th Avenue subway to the G. Currently it misses by one measly stop.
I agree with you on the G line. Better yet why not extend it to Church Ave. Which is a very crowded station.
Amtrak announced that Acela testing resumed this week between Newark and Washington and will test in New England next week. Alstom and Bombardier suggested using longer bolts in the truck assemblies and the FRA agreed.
http://www.amtrak.com/news/archive/atk0078.html
Because N and R trains are terminating at 42st Times Square, the BS will be unable to run this weekend. The B will compensate for the lost service by running to 21st Queensbridge. This has not happened since the Puerto Rican day parade, hopefully Queensbridge riders will be able to adjust to the temporary service change. The MTA apologizes for this oversight in their planning of the N/R G.O., and promises that this will not happen again for at least 2 more months.
All those recent threads about R9's made me remember Nedick's. They used to be located inside subway stations. They had really tasty hot dogs, which I think rivaled Nathan's in their own way. Since the dogs were cooked so close to the tracks and were permeated with all the right "scents", it was the next best thing to eating an R9 -- They also had a fruit drink called an "orange julius", which was a real New York food, like an egg cream.
Wasn't there one in the 14th St. & 8th Ave. Station on the mezzanine between the A/C/E and L?
You talk as if Nedicks was history, are they a thing of the past like Horn & Hardarts?
Yes, they are from what I know. They have passed out of existence just like Reid's, Horton's, and Meadow Gold Ice Cream----and, of course, LaRosa Spaghetti products, and the candy store of yore.
You're further away from the city than I am, but at least you get back to visit once in a while.
This business about the candy stores has come up before, and I still have a hard time believing it. There used to be one at the foot of every el station stairs. I worked in one part time in the late 1940's and early 1950's. I wonder where people go to buy their newspapers, magazines, tobacco etc. We always used to buy our "spaldeens" in a local candy store too!
Candy stores like penny vending machines and five and dime stores were all defeated by rising costs, particularly labor v. the small cost of the items sold. In some neighborhoods they were hastened on their way by OTB and state run lotteries.
BTW I never saw NYC style candy stores outside of the New York City area. When I first came to California, I was surprised to see liquor stores that doubled as neighborhood mini grocery stores and carrying all the things you would find in a New York candy store.
I was too young to drink when I left New York, but I do remember there were package liquor stores. Did they have minimum age limits to enter? Were they limited in what they could sell? If so, that and the density of the neighborhoods could explain why there were candy stores in New York in the first place. Where was package liquor sold before prohibition? Were candy stores former package liquor outlets before prohibition?
When I moved to Ohio in 1948, I found that the things you could buy in a candy store were in corner drug stores which featured a pharmacist, a soda fountain, and a counter where candy, tobacco, and newspapers were sold, or in neighborhood stores which sold bread, milk, and limited canned goods. Ohio restricted (and may still restrict) sales of package liquor to state run outlets, so there were no traditional liquor stores there.
Tom
I worked part time in a candy store at the foot of the stairs to the Crescent St Station in Brooklyn in the late 1940's and early 1950's. I had the feeling that their basic business was to sell the latest editions of the newspapers. Most candy stores had a homemade stand out front with the papers on it.
Inside were more newspapers, magazines, candy bars(5 cents), tobacco, small toys, paperbacks(25 cents), comic books(10 cents) and greeting cards.
Most candy stores also had a soda fountain with six or eight stools.
It seemed like everyone who got on or off the el would stop at the candy store for something.
Our busiest time of day was 9PM at night when people would gather outside the store to wait for the "pinks", which were the early editions of the next days NY Daily News and the NY Mirror. Sometimes there would be as many as a dozen people waiting for the papers to arrive.
Liquor stores were just that, selling only wine and liquor, and only to adults. They were privately owned. I delivered the Long Island Press, and on Friday night after collections, I would stop at a liquor store on Ridgewood Ave near Logan St, and they were always glad to exchange my nickels, dimes and quarters for paper money. They were always glad to see me, but they would not sell me a bottle for my Dad's Christmas present because of my age.
When I moved here to Pennsylvania forty plus years ago, we had a store here that they called a news agency. It was very similar to New York's candy store except that they very seldom had a soda fountain. News agencies seem to have gotten harder and harder to find today, although there are still some around.
Liquor stores here are called "state stores" because they are run by the state, and sell only wine and liquor to adults. Except for the state control, they seem to be run just like the privately owned liquor stores in New York fifty years ago.
I KNOW this VERY off-topic, BUT... where I live is about 20 miles from the NY-NJ-PA 'Tri-State' corner [i.e. Port Jervis, Matamoris PA, Sussex Co NJ], so it is interesting how the various liquor laws, etc come into play. In NY[as has been stated before], liquor stores are privately owned, sell only hard liquor and wine, and are CLOSED on Sunday [even if its New Year's Eve..]. In PA, the 'state stores' are [of course..]state owned, sell hard liquor and wine,are opened VERY limited hours. Beverage stores are only allowed to sell warm beer by the case, and I believe that regular grocery stores cannot sell beer at all.....In NJ, the liquor stores sell ALL alcoholic beverages, and are OPEN on Sunday...[grocery stores cant sell beer in NJ...] I also believe that non-grocery beverage stores can sell [warm] beer in NJ also... [also not to forget NY's weird 'no beer before noon on a Sunday' law...]BTW- around this area, your neighborhood 'candy store' was generally known as a 'confectionary'...I kid you not....[usually a 'confectionary' didn't have a deli, but did have a small counter for sodas,etc, just like a NYC 'candy store'..and just like the candy store is a dying breed...
[I KNOW this VERY off-topic, BUT... where I live is about 20 miles from the NY-NJ-PA 'Tri-State' corner [i.e. Port Jervis, Matamoris PA, Sussex Co NJ], so it is interesting how the various liquor laws, etc come into play. In NY[as has been stated before], liquor stores are privately owned, sell only hard liquor and wine, and are CLOSED on Sunday [even if its New Year's Eve..]. In PA, the 'state stores' are [of course..]state owned, sell hard liquor and wine,are opened VERY
limited hours. Beverage stores are only allowed to sell warm beer by the case, and I believe that regular grocery stores cannot sell beer at all.....In NJ, the liquor stores sell ALL alcoholic beverages,
and are OPEN on Sunday...[grocery stores cant sell beer in NJ...] I also believe that non-grocery beverage stores can sell [warm] beer in NJ also... [also not to forget NY's weird 'no beer before noon on a Sunday' law...]]
To add Connecticut to the mix:
Food stores can sell beer only. No warm or cold restrictions. Liquor (or "package") stores are privately owned, very numerous (as of a few years ago, Connecticut had more liquor stores than Texas), and in most cases rather small. They can sell beer in addition to wine and hard liquor. Sale hour restrictions apply to all types of alcoholic beverages and to both food and liquor stores. No sales are allowed after 8 pm or all day on Sunday. Most supermarkets use tarps to cover the beer shelves during the no-sale hours.
Where Connecticut is really strict is with regard to bar-closing hours. IIRC, closing time is 1 am, but 2 am on Saturday and Sunday mornings. That doesn't mean that last call is at those times. No, when 1 or 2 rolls around, all drinks have to be off the tables and bars. Most places therefore announce last call at least 45 minutes before the closing time.
Okay, I guess it is time I jumped in on this one. We own what is most likely the last "candy store" in New Jersey. Official it's Gary's Confectionery (that's with an e). What we sell has changed quite a bit through the years from when my parents bought it in 1949. We no longer sell toys, the fountain is no longer connected, and health and beauty aids are fading. We do not cook or make sandwiches. We still have a counter with four bar stools in place of the orginal seven counter stools. What we do sell are newspapers, magazines, snacks, hot and cold drinks, cigarettes, and various other odds and ends.
>>> Our busiest time of day was 9PM at night when people would gather outside the store to wait for the "pinks", <<<
This more than anything points to the reason for the demise of the candy store. With most people getting the news from TV, there is no demand for the early edition of the newspapers, and newspaper reading in general has declined.
Tom
There are still a few around but I didn't see any with the traditional fountain. I bought tobacco at one on Westchester Square-Bronx and there was such a store right by the steps at Crescent St. station on the J. when I visited the old Brooklyn neighborhood.
It sounds like you saw the one on the south side of Fulton St, which was right at the foot of the el stairs. I worked at the one on the north side of the street, which was two stores west of the el stairs.
In all the years since I have been there they could have changed the stores a dozen times, in fact they could have even moved the el stairs.
I was told by the owner of a former candy store with a fountain on Kings Hwy and E 18, That the city put in very strict Health Laws for open ice cream, soda fountains, etc. It was easier and cheaper to sell pre packaged ice cream and soda in the stores, then getting health and resturaunt licenses. Nedicks, I used to love the one just outside Macy s on 34th and Bdwy. the ones in Penn and GCT were great too. Asd to Liquor storse. Until about 15-20 years ago, all liquor in Calif was sold at Fair Trade Prices, meaning from the largest Super Market to the smallest Mom/Pop Store sold it at the same price. Then the State dropped the fair trade. Now you can buy liquor and shop around. Usually the Small local Liquor Store has the cheaper stuff. If you want a better brand, usually the Super Market or Gourmet Liquor Store, or Chain Drug Store had .it.
>>>Nedicks, I used to love the one just outside Macy s on 34th and Bdwy.<<<
This location is now a Sunglass Hut, ironically there will be a Burger King opening in that building in the near future. It will be at the Subway Level with a separate entrance from the street.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was told by the owner of a former candy store with a fountain on Kings Hwy and E 18, That the city put in very strict Health Laws for open ice cream, soda fountains, etc. It was easier and cheaper to sell pre packaged ice cream and soda in the stores, then getting health and resturaunt licenses. Nedicks, I used to love the one just outside Macy s on 34th and Bdwy. the ones in Penn and GCT were great too. Asd to Liquor storse. Until about 15-20 years ago, all liquor in Calif was sold at Fair Trade Prices, meaning from the largest Super Market to the smallest Mom/Pop Store sold it at the same price. Then the State dropped the fair trade. Now you can buy liquor and shop around. Usually the Small local Liquor Store has the cheaper stuff. If you want a better brand, usually the Super Market or Gourmet Liquor Store, or Chain Drug Store had .it.
Fred, Meadow Gold Ice Cream Still exists in many place. I have 2 1/2 gallons in my freezer at home. I found Meadow Gold not only in Hawaii, but other places across the country. By the way, please e mail me something, I sent you a e mail but it came back.
Horn and Hardock Company still exist. Whenever you see a Burger King in Manhatte, chances are that the the franchise owner is Horn and Hardock
Horn and Hardart closed all of thier Burger King franchises in Manhattan about 8 yrs ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bob,
Yes - there was a Nedick's at that location. During the summers of 1978 and 1979, I worked as a bank teller at the Manufacturers Hanover branch, on the corner of 14th and 8th. Besides eating at that Nedick's on occasion, I can remember one of their employees coming into the bank to get rolls of coins.
Tony
07/02/2000
Does anybody remember the Nedicks"s at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn? Yes! The Transit Museum, it was there for short while by the R-42 front theatre. Only grilled hot dogs and orange drink was sold if my memory serves me right. Great place for a bite before reboarding the Nostalgia Special to the Rockaways (circa 1976-80?)
Bill "Newkirk"
I do! Almost as weird when Nathan's put units inside CALDOR stores, of all things- it was absolutely STRANGE to go in a Caldors up in Rochester, and have Nathans...
07/03/2000
Lou,
Out here in the Copiague Home Depot there is a Nathan's. Great for chowing down before buying 2 X 4's !!
Bill "Newkirk"
There's one in the Elmont Home Depot, too.
They have them in many Home Depots. Like Flushing and Gowanus.
Whereabouts on the mezzanine was it? I used to transfer from the A to the Canarsie every Saturday for three years between 1967 and 1970 and don't remember seeing it. Of course, if it was at the northern end, that would explain everything - all I ever saw was the southern end of the mezzanine.
I believe one of the last two was at Penn Station (at one time there were tow there). Frequently I had breakfest there (egg sandwich) or supper after OT (two dogs). Now the spot has a Micky Ds.
Mr t__:^)
Orange Julius was a separate franchise. So many NYC franchises have gone...Child's, Nedicks as well. The Hojo in Times Square is on borrowed time, if it isn't gone already. Are Dairy Queens still around?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nedicks is gone? What's this world coming to? Well at least when I return to the city I'll get to savor the unique flavor of Ruppert's Knickerbocker beer and vote for Miss Rheingold.
Tom
How about the Automat, Chock Full O'Nuts? My beer was Ballantine. Now if you could only ride the High-V's on Broadway again. Wish I could.
<< Nedicks is gone? What's this world coming to? >>
At least there's still Carvel ice cream, the best soft serve in the world.
Glad to hear they are still around. We had 'em in southern California years ago, but all five locations that I knew of disappeared around 13 years ago.
Even though I'm not a salsa fan, and the record store in the Times Square station dealt with salsa mostly, I miss seeing the store when I pass through. There's a series of CDs based on the music sold at Times Square Records...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I miss that store as well...I'm in Norfolk, Virgina now and we have only one Carvel for at least 20 miles around...Dairy Queen here is doing good in the tourist areas (Virginia Beach) but we have at least one Friendly's here...I had a sabrett hot dog here today and that's as close to New York I can get here for the time being.
In my youth there was a Times Sq. records, indeed in the Times Square station...stairway smack in the center on 42 st. He [Irving Rose] later moved to the 42nd/6th station. It specialized in pre-Beatles, pre- soul and pre-hard rock music.. rock & roll and rhythm and blues mostly of the 50's ...any chance this is the same store or is that indeed from the age of dinosaurs [like me]. That was great music.
07/03/2000
[In my youth there was a Times Sq. records, indeed in the Times Square station...stairway smack in the center on 42 st. He [Irving Rose] later moved to the 42nd/6th station]
I remember a record store in the mezzanine of the 42nd St and 6th Ave. station entrance. It was called "Downstairs Records". They moved after closure to several locations and are now located "upstairs" at 1026 6th Avenue in the upper West 30's.
Bill "Newkirk"
There are still hundreds or Dairy Queens left in this world, and HoJos too
I don't think there are as many HoJos as there used to be. There aren't any left in Denver, anyway. Heck, 30 years ago, we always ate there while on vacation. I remember one HoJos in particular on 6th Ave. by Rockefeller Center. We ate there a few times right after moving to New Jersey, and it was there on April 30, 1967 that my father suggested taking the subway to Coney Island after I indicated I'd like to go somewhere by that mode of transportation. And so we did...
There was an article in the Asbury Park Press within the past few days which said that there were either 27 or 29 (I don't remember which) left in the country. One (the only one left in New Jersey) is in Asbury Park.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[There was an article in the Asbury Park Press within the past few days which said that there were either 27 or 29 (I don't remember which) left in the country. One (the only one left in New Jersey) is
in Asbury Park.]
Wow. I didn't think there was _anything_ left standing in Asbury Park!
Not much is. This one's in a rather rundown hotel quite close to the waterfront.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Orange Julius is still around - seen it in a couple of malls in [new] Jersey.
Dairy Queen is still around also.
We have a Dairy Queen/Orange Julius at my Exton Mall which is 30
miles west of center city Phila. I really have to try an Orange Julius
My friend says they are very good.
uh...it IS kinda of an aquired taste, actually....
They even have a OJ in China Town(People s Park) in Singapore, along with a Dennys. By the way. The largest volumne McDonalds in the world is in Singapore
There's an Orange Julius in Queens Center Mall.
What IS an Orange Julius anyway? Never had one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Orange Julius is a kinda funny tasting orange drink that they make up fresh when you order it....don't ask what is in it though....Actually its refreshing in a different kinda way...Haven't had one in a long,long time though...
Kevin;
Orange Julius started in Southern California in stands similar to the old Nedicks selling their orange drink and hot dogs.
The drink itself was orange juice with crushed ice and a secret ingredient powder (which was probably mostly sugar) mixed in a blender. Later they added other fruits such as strawberry, banana, berries, etc. Originally they used fresh orange juice (when oranges were grown all over Southern California), now they start with concentrates for all the flavors. Similar tasting drinks are sold under the name "Orange Whip".
They worked through a franchise system which eventually went nationwide. In the 70's they were at a competitive disadvantage as many fast food chains expanded and had more extensive menu's. They lost all quality control of the franchisees and with regards to the hot dogs sold, some were good while others were terrible.
Now hardly any free standing Orange Julius stands can be found. Most of them are located in Mall food courts, and the price of the drink has soared from 20% over a typical soft drink to the $2.35 to $2.50 range. The flavor is no where near as good as the originals.
Tom
DQs are getting rarer and rarer though,especially in the Northeast, where high property costs make it real hard to sell something that most people want only 6-7 months out of the year...Also DQ is notorious in the industry for being real overlords with their franchisees, and a lot of them give up their franchises to sell ice cream without the licensing fees...
There is one of each within walking distance of my house.
Dairy Queen is everywhere in the midwest and now in southern California.
My favorite re-fueling stop was the Nedicks on the mezz. level of the Roosevelt Avenue Station. I could conveniently hit it before continuing on to Union Turnpike. This would fortify me for the 1/2 hour trip on the Q-44A on my daily trek from Brooklyn Tech.
I had a Nedicks near where I lives, over on 23rd Street and First Ave. It's now a donut shop/coffee shop, which isn't bad, but it's not Nedicks.
And the hot dog with the orange soda was great.
Supposedly, "Five Alive" tastes just like Nedick's soda. (I'm not sure; I never tried Nedick's but my dad can't eat a hot dog without it)
I remember Nedicks had the best Orange Soda, Very little carbonation, and they had it in bottles too. Dairy Queen was found in Tel Aviv when I was there in May, also BK, Pizza Hut and McDees. Can you imagine Kosher Meat McDees. Not Meat was sold at the Dairy Queen, only ice cream
Dairy Queen is headquartered in Minnesota, so it would make sense they ere in the Midwest. But because they tend not to pre-cook their food and leave it under a heat lamp, they have slower service than other fast food places, which makes them more suitable for suburban and rural locations.
Dairy Queen is simply thriving here in Pennsylvania. I even saw one way down on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. It was either in Avon or Buxton. That is an area where you just don't see national store names such as Wendy's, McDonalds or Arby's!
[The Hojo in Times Square is on borrowed time, if it isn't gone already]
HoJo was still in operation three months ago, March, 00. Walked by it many a time. Still open 24/7. Still had the same greasy windows that I remember from the 70s. Probably the same everyting else, too. The place is a like a time capsule. (IIRC, they did have a kitchen fire about 10 ? years ago; maybe the back of house equipment is newer.)
Today's Washington Post reports just 29 are left in operation.
Did they say they were free standing HoJo There are still some in their hotels, did they include those?
Free Standing Units
Nedicks had it all over nathans. They had 2 gimmicks that set them apart. The toasted bread that held the franks was unique to nedicks as was their brand of mustard. The nedicks orange drink was also memorable.
My sentiments exactly!
I think Nedick's disappeared around 1980 or maybe even earlier than that.
They not only had subway station locations, but a few street-front stores as well. We used to live just off Fordham Road and Kingsbridge, and there was one on the south side of Fordham at Tiebout Avenue.
there was in penn station next to the pizza shop.(in the main waiting area).
There was also one in Grand Central Terminal -- hard to describe where, but it was in a walkway that went to the east side of the building, south of the bumpers on the upper level.
Ever heard this "Reservations for two at the Orange Room" ?
Mr t__:^)
I have always thought that H&H [with a bit of jazzing up tech-wise] would play real well nowadays...Instead of coins...you would buy from a machine H&H debit cards, which you stick in a a slot for your food. This would VERY profitable, cause either A) You would make a return visit to use up your balance on your card [and of course, spending more for another card..]; OR B) It wouldn't get used at all, that then being a TON of profit.. It CERTAINLY would be faster than waiting INTERMINABLY in the lines they have these days at the various burger/chicken/whatever joints [would cut down on the help needed too....]
lou... a lot of food in the automats came from the steam tables, where you had to wait in line for food... the coin slots were mostly for pies and cakes, coffee, rolls, and sandwiches... as a kid i was always afraid that as i was taking food out of window, the people working behind the machine would spin the thing around and take my hand with it... i miss the automats...i once had a list of all the automats in the city... also the first time i was in philadelphia, i was surprised to see automats all over the place... do you remember the announcer who did the commercials for the automat?
>>> as a kid i was always afraid that as i was taking food out of window, the people working behind the machine would spin the thing around and take my hand with it <<<
Paul;
I had the same fear of losing a hand when dining at the automat. When those shelves spun it was really sudden. I suppose it was under human control with the person controlling it able to tell that no coins were currently inserted, but it really seemed from the outside to happen at random times.
The big thing then was the technology of putting in a coin or coins and getting food out. Now that we have food vending machines all over the place it would not be such a big draw.
Tom
Ed Heherily and the Childrens Hour on Channel 4 Sunday AM 9-10AM sponsered vy Horn and Harduct. They also had take out baked goods in the grocery stores, and theie Corp Office was in Philly not NYC
Is this the most frequent off topic thread or what? What is it with you guys and NY cafeterias? :)
Dave;
Give us a break, we used to get there on the subway. :-)
Tom
And we need to fuel up before, during and after an intense day of railfanning!!
The first automat was at 11th and Walnut in Philadelphia. It was a Depression-era invention so people could get a cheap meal without leaving a tip or interfacing with people who would see how poor you were. And the MFSE is only two blocks from that corner (required subway connection in post). I actually ate there in the late 1960s right before it closed. BTW, an entire wall of automat doors has been moved intact to the first floor of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History in Washington.
Quick Snack at the Times Square one when transfering from the IRT to the BMT.
I fueled up numerous times in and through the mid/late 1960s and 1970-1971 at the H&H in Jay Street and Fulton Street, Brooklyn. I was saddened to see it close.
Isn't there ONE H&H left somewhere in NYC?
wayne
[Isn't there ONE H&H left somewhere in NYC?]
A search on switchboard.com turned up
Horn & Hardart Dine-O-Mat
1 University Pl
New York, NY 10003-4516
Would that be in Union Square or at the Greenwich Village end of the street?
wayne
[Would that be in Union Square or at the Greenwich Village end of the street?]
The Village.
Bob
07/03/2000
I guess if the Horn & Hardart "Automat" makes a comeback, those new dollar coins would fit in just fine.
Bill "Newkirk"
07/03/2000
Dave,
Every once and a while us middle agers go off on a tangent and talk about food. Observe:
When we're young, we talk about sex.
When we're middle age, we talk about food.
When we're eldery, we talk about the weather.
When Sea Beach Fred posts here, he talks about the Sea Beach Line !!!
NUFF SAID ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Eating a R-9!!??
Thats the funniest thing I ever heard!
Sounds like something a few members at the Shoreline Trolley museum would do if they could!
By lunch time Sunday Stef had a lot of Red Bird paint on the floor, but Doug the BMT man & I stuck to our dinner sandwiches without adding any R-17 flavoring.
Mr t__Ding Ding
For those Nedicks fans out there, I spotted a coffee cup on eBay today... it came up on a search for "subway", but I'm sure you could find it under Nedicks if you want to see it. I know nothing about it otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the age of 79 Actor Walter Matthau died eariler today of a heart attack. As we all know Mr. Matthau stared in (my favorate movie) "The Taking of Pelham, One, Two, Three" and other movies, such as, "The Odd Couple" and "I'm Not Rappaport"
Hollywood and subfans has lost a great actor.
The subway in Manhattan for the most part is in the best shape compared to the other boroughs with subway service.
The stations on the Queens Blvd line have bags of garbage piled up at the end of the station which attracts rats to the platform. Also alot of them have dim lights, Grand ave-Newton comes to mind.
Also some parts of the 7 aren't in great shape, like Queensboro plaza.
Manhattan subway stations seem to have more exits and are cleaner. Perhaps that is because they are busier and handle more people.
Also socio-economic conditions seem to play a role, since Manhattan has alot more places for employment, attractions, and things to see and do than Queens. Queens has especially gone downhill lately more than any other borough.
The 7 train used to be the pride of the IRT, and now it is obviously not the "premier" line it used to be. Some fault rests with why the 7 will be the last line to get newer cars and get rid of the old Redbirds.
I guess since the Flushing area is not as great as it used to be, the political clout of the people that ride that line is not like it used to be.
[The subway in Manhattan for the most part is in the best shape compared to the other boroughs with subway service.]
Check out Chambers Street on the J/M/Z.
The Rector Street IRT station has also in explicably been allowed to remain in the same condition it has always been in, despite it being smack in the middle of downtown, and that every station on the line south of 34th St has had a makeover. Why not Rector?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The station renovations sometimes seem to follow an inexplicable pattern. Supposedly there's a formula that favors busy and run-down stations, but I see busy stations that receive no attention while others get lots.
Well that is a BIG exception of course.
I must admit seeing the subway for the first time a couple of weeks ago with other subtalk fans, I was pleasantly surprised at some sights of the system. I had a stereotypical view of things and was intimidated by some of the views and past stories.
I had the pleasure of going through the South Bronx see the newly revamped Fort Apache and parts that have come back.
Brownsville East New York Sutter, Livonia stations are another story. Coney Island absolutely needs work and Chamber street what the hell is going on there. I wanted to rid the the "7" and "J" lines 'J" was shut down for a reason or another. 7 we simply ran out of time.
What kind of neighborhood does the 7 go through?
It goes to Shea Stadium where the Mets play. Hey, did you guys see the great rally last night when our boys came back and stomped the Braves. I saw it on WTBS, the Braves' station and it looked to me that the announcers were going suffer an anxiety attack, or worse. It seemed to do the trick because today the Mets stomped the hell out of the Bravos. If we can just take them tomorrow it will have been one great series.
I was at yesterday's game, going from 8-1 to 11-8 in the 8th was quite a feat. Everyone was chanting 'we want Rocker' during the several pitcher changes in the 8th.
To keep this on-topic, there was a train parked on the express track from 8:30 until after 11:30 (I could see the line clearly from my seat), a another appeared behind at about 9:30. How many after-game expresses run from Shea?
[Coney Island absolutely needs work and Chamber street what the hell is going on there. I wanted to rid the the "7" and "J" lines 'J" was shut down for a reason or another. 7 we simply ran out of time.
What kind of neighborhood does the 7 go through?]
Stillwell Avenue (the Coney Island station) is scheduled for a major rehabilitation. It surely needs one. Chambers Street, assuming you mean the one served by the J/M/Z, well, it's hard to figure out what's going on. It's a complete disgrace that it has been allowed to deteriorate to its present condition. It's so bad that any full rehabilitation is likely to be a hugely expensive affair that will be timed in years rather than months.
The 7 serves mainly working-class neighborhoods occupied by a whole panoply of immigrant groups. Despite John Rocker's comments, it does not attract lowlifes in any unusual number.
[The 7 serves mainly working-class neighborhoods occupied by a whole panoply of immigrant groups. Despite John Rocker's comments, it does not attract lowlifes in any unusual number.]
When I last rode the 7, a week-and-a-half ago, I didn't see any lowlifes, and the rest of the passengers saw only me.
You and your wife the only ones in the car, eh? :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think all of the boroughs are lousy!
Amen to that!
Then why bother with looking at SubTalk at all??? Interesting in rapid transit usually goes with an interest in the places that they run. In many ways (not all) New York is similar to many other cities, just much larger, everything in larger numbers and more square miles of it. If the people there like it, so be it. If you hate it that much, don't read this stuff, because you will not get too many people agreeing with you...
I think there's been something of an effort to renovate the high traffic stations and the stations in the business districts. These tend to be in Manhattan.
Anyway, it may not be PC to say so, but I think our main concern has to be attracting businesses and prosperous residents--in the long term, that will do more for the poor than anybody else. And I think we should be sensitive to the requirements of particular areas. Subways are a heavily subsidized service. If everybody wants nice stations, we should raise the fare to pay for it. But I think that if you asked the working poor, they'd choose to keep the money for more pressing needs. Conversely, the middles and uppers would be willing to pay for comfort, and I say give it to them, so we can be more competitive with the suburbs and other regions. I think we could handle things fairly with special real estate assessments, but even without that, they pay most of our exhorbitant taxes in the first place.
[I think there's been something of an effort to renovate the high traffic stations and the stations in the business districts. These tend to be in Manhattan.
Anyway, it may not be PC to say so, but I think our main concern has to be attracting businesses and prosperous residents--in the long term, that will do more for the poor than anybody else. And I think we should be sensitive to the requirements of particular areas.]
That might explain why Chambers Street on the J/M/Z has been allowed to rot away.
Actually, I don't think it would take that much to clean up a dilapidated station. Philadelphia's el stations aren't so beautiful, but they are not disgusting to stand in. They are clean, somewhat freshly painted and no standing water, trash, or rodents. If you look closely at the wood and concrete, they are certainly old, but a small amount of inexpensive elbow grease and paint has kept them in a pretty good condition.
Maybe Chambers St. (J/M) could be mostly walled off with just the bare miminum of necessary platforms and tracks in view of the public.
[Actually, I don't think it would take that much to clean up a dilapidated station. Philadelphia's el stations aren't so beautiful, but they are not disgusting to stand in. They are clean, somewhat freshly painted and no standing water, trash, or rodents. If you look closely at the wood and concrete, they are certainly old, but a small amount of inexpensive elbow grease and paint has kept them in a pretty good condition.
Maybe Chambers St. (J/M) could be mostly walled off with just the bare miminum of necessary platforms and tracks in view of the public.]
Chambers Street might well be beyond mere cosmetic repairs. There is a major water leak with crumbling concrete.
07/04/2000
Water leaks aside, rehabbing Chambers St. (J)(M)(Z) is a tough one because of it's enormous interior space. There is a lot of space to rehab for such little service. The glory days must have shown Chambers St. abuzz with passenger and train activity.
Bill "Newkirk"
If the MTA was ever serious about reactivating the Second Ave. project, a full rehab of Chamber would make sense because it could serve both that line and the J/M/Z at the same time. But as we know, they're gonna have to be dragged kicking and screaming into just doing st stubway, so maybe a temporary wall like at 63rd and Lex and a half-renovation is the best idea (so long as they made sure the other half is structurally sound -- I'd hate to have the Manhattan Court Clerk's office on the second floor of the Municipal Building end up at platform level someday)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...it seems to me that the Lenox Ave. IRT is in what could be called a "depressed" neighborhood, Harlem. A decade ago they were among the worst-looking stations in the system; now they're nice and shiny. And before April 13, 1996, 14 St-Union Square IRT, in a "good" area, was also shameful with its hundreds of missing tiles. (On 4/13/96 the tiles on the uptown side were replaced, temporarily screwing up the entire east-side subway.)
Could be that the MTA selects stations for restoration based on the extent of the work needed, with more difficult jobs being deferred. I imagine that once they're finished the Canal St. bridge station and Times Sq. they'll consider tackling Chambers-Nassau.
On Saturday I rode the 'A' train on Fulton St. for the first time in years. The Utica Avenue station looks great - one of the best-looking NYC subway stations I've seen. While passing through I noticed that some of the stairways from the platform to the mezzanine at Utica are now made of metal, with steps only and no risers. This allows a clear view 'through' the stairway, and can help reduce crime by elimating places where lowlifes can hide behind. When I ride the subway, I hate having to walk around a stairway on a narrow platform, not knowing who may be lurking behind it.
For safety reasons, SEPTA in Philadelphia replaced the old solid stairways on the Broad Street Line back in the 1980's with this same type of metal stairway. NYCT should make these stairs the standard for future subway station renovations.
- Jim (RailBus)
You're right. The "open-riser" stair is now the Transit design standard for all future station rehabs (since the early 1990's), in the interest of personal security.
A nice example is at Park Place (2,3), north end of the platform, allowing the transfer to A/C/E. The old solid stair was replaced with a pair open-risers.
Another is at 50th Street (1,9), northbound platform, with two open-riser street stairs.
It'll be interesting to see them applied to the Canarsie Line overpass at East New York.
Indeed they have done so! Go visit "The Barn", which is the red aluminum structure that sits above the "L" station at Broadway-Junction and you will see that they have installed new "open-riser" stairs.
Construction is going on hot and heavy there last I looked - I have no idea what's going to be the finished product. I hope they leave SOME vestiges of what the station looked like, i.e. the split platform and vintage lights at the south end.
wayne
Wayne, from what I know, the wedge-shaped island platform will remain in it's present configuration. However, I have a feeling that a handicapped-access set-up -- meaning an elevator -- is one of the things that may be coming to the Broadway Junction station of the "L" train by years end.
As I transfer to the Fulton Street Line (A train) on weekdays at B'way Junction, I'll keep a sharp eye out on the changes and report on my findings ASAP.
Doug aka BMTman
Ah, so THAT'S what that gaping hole in the platform is for; AND it looks like they've removed that smelly crossunder as well, there's all fencing there and plywood and the shed on the n/b platform has its roof off; everything's a royal mess but I am sure they'll get it all sorted out one of these "daze"...
wayne
I like the metal stairways myself. Don't see many of them, though.
I'm bothered by the widened staircases in a number of renovated stations. I don't feel safe walking past them because of the possibility that I'll be knocked onto the tracks by a running kid or a lurching drunk.
Several points:
1- NYCT is planning on relighting all stations that do not have fluorescent, mercury, or sodium lights--including Elmhurst, Grand, 65th, etc. in Queens, Fordham, Kingsbridge IND Bronx, etc. It takes time.
2-Like it or not- we have Manhattan's location to thank for our good rush hour service. Imagine if The Bronx were the major business center of the city-let;s say the World Trade Center were in the Bronx-- we'd be looking at lots of one-way express service like the 7 ,Bronx 5, J/Z skip stop, etc.
In any transit system, traffic has to serve some major destination--if the destination is in a central point such as 30th Street in Philly then there is two way service, but if it is in an outlying area then the service is more uni-drectional or in the case of Pascack valley NJT- only one way.
I do not know when, but NYCT has plans on building trash rooms for every station as well as renovating every station.
We keep talking about Philly- they have fewer stations and only two lines. They shut down their entire system overnight and when they redid the Frankford end of their Blue Line they shut it down on weekends. MARTA and WMATA also shut down overnight
NYC runs 24/7--I have seen full trains on the L, G from Court Square to Greenpoint and Nassau, E/F Queens Blvd, 8th ave Manhattan, etc.
Contrary to some posters opinions- we must run 24/7.
>>>Queens, Fordham, Kingsbridge IND Bronx<<<
These stations have had flourescent lights for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not in the mezzanine! Quite a few still have incandescent lights in the mezzanine including Hoyt Schermerhorn IND downtown Brooklyn
Like it or not- we have Manhattan's location to thank for our good rush hour service. Imagine if The Bronx were the major business center of the city-let;s say the World Trade Center were in the Bronx-- we'd be looking at lots of one-way express service like the 7 ,Bronx 5, J/Z skip stop, etc.
Had southern Westchester developed as a center of business in lieu of Manhattan, then the focus of the city over the centuries would be oriented there. The problem you mention would not exist in any case.
Most people riding the subway from neighborhoods in the other boroughs are traveling to or from Manhattan, and thus receive nearly as much benefit from nice stations as Manhattanites. Those traveling within the boroughs benefit from less crowded stations.
I find most of Brooklyn's stations to be in good shape, with the exception of unrenovated stations on the 4th Avenue Line, which are horrible. In general, I think the un-renovated IRT stations are the worst off, Chambers Street aside. In fact -- un-renovated big stations (Atlantic Avenue, Stillwell) seem to be worse than unrenovated small stations.
I find there tends to be more garbage in areas where you have more people who tend to throw garbage on the ground. The amount of garbage in the subway is strongly correlated with the amount of garbage on the sidewalk.
Someone did a study some years back of litterers. Less than 10% of the population was responsible for all the trash, and it's no secret that the great majority of these people are poor.
The July issue of Civil Engineering magazine has a detailed article on the construction of the connection. It's fairly informative.
Don't look for this on any newsstand. It only goes to members of the American Society of Civil Engineers. Check asce.org for this online.
I'm sure many larger and university libraries will have it too.
I'll check at MIT this week.
You would think with 18 years of construction this
would be the most modern and durable bridge in the world.Since the bridge was originally for trolley traffic,Why cant they move the tracks to middle
lanes and the traffic to the outer lanes where
the tracks are now?They would need only two tracks
for both the Broadway and Sixth ave.with this configuration.Your Ideas?
Running 4 lines on 2 tracks isn't advisable (B,D,Q,N). However, this may work:
OLD CFG
|| track | track ||1lane|1lane|1lane|| track | 1 lane||
New CFG
|| 1 lane| track || track | track || track | 1 lane||
Anything is ok with me as long as you my Sea Beach back on that bridge. I think the Bay Ridge population would like that, too.
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS
THERE WILL BE A CHAT IN THE #METROCARD ROOM TONIGHT, 7/1/00 AT 9PM.
THE MAIN OP WILL BE @TEVI.
To get into the chat, goto http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard using your web browser, but if you are using a MIRC client, and only do this if you know how to, goto the irc.cjb.net server, channel #metrocard.
---@Tevi
Co-OP of #metrocard.
The posts above about flip boards vs digital signs reminds me...
Unfortunately, Hagstrom Maps intends to junk all their gorgeous hand drawn maps of the NYC area and replace them with computerized editions. Bergen County has already been replaced...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Have you seen the replacement? Is it that horrible?
>>>Have you seen the replacement? Is it that horrible? <<<
Compared to what came before it, you betcha. No computerized map holds a firecracker to a hand-drawn map...
07/01/2000
What special service if any does the #7 Flushing line have when Shea fills up and worse yet lets out diverting hundreds of riders to the #7 ?
Are there any trains short turned at Willets Point? How about express service or am I talking about something long long ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
On a similar note, I've noticed that during some recent Met games, an idle 7 train seems to be parked on the express track just north of Willets Pt. It's in a perfect position to be seen from cameras inside Shea. Coincidence?
During saturday afternoon's game, there were 2 more idle #7 trains on the service tracks at the 111 St station, along with the one on the express track north of Willets Pt. I couldn't see whether there were any trains on the flyover express track though.
Coincidence? I think so. But they are likely positioned to be ready to ship the fans back home...
I don't recall any express service on any Sundays since the World's Fair.
I do, during the 86 playoffs, at least to Woodside (the Queens Bld viaduct was being repaired then).
They have several "baseball special" trainsets laid up between Wlllets Point and Main St. on the structure. The put them in between regular service trains when the crowds come out. The return to the yard "lite" from Times Square.
Back in the late 1960's & early 1970's, they had 3 trains sitting on the express track east of W. P.. As soon as the game let out, the first train pulled in. Too often the train was fairly empty.The crowds would follow the signs for trains to Manhattan. (local) To get this special train to Times Square you had to follow the signs to Main St.
Yes, it always went express. I was on this Special Friday nights, Sat. & Sun. Afternoons. Lots of fun!
Saturday July 1 6:35 PM ET
Woman Killed by N.Y. Subway Train
NEW YORK (AP) - A 25-year-old woman fell off a subway platform early Saturday and was struck and killed by an oncoming train, police said.
Witnesses reported seeing Carolyn Waldron reading a book and standing in the middle of the platform moments before she fell onto the tracks about 2 a.m., police spokesman Alan Krawitz said. She was struck by a train and declared dead at the scene, he said.
The incident is believed to be accidental. ``She was not pushed,'' Krawitz said.
A friend of the woman told police Waldron had spent the evening watching movies at a nearby apartment and was returning to her home, Krawitz said.
I heard the same report on the news. However, I'm curious about the title of your thread - specifically the last two words. Did you know this person? Did you have a personal grudge against her? Why would post sonething so idiotic? Are you going into competition with our Left Coast Resident Race-Baiter? You need a reality check, my friend.....
In the army there is no please or thank you. You simply do your job. Your job being killing people you never met and never did anything against you. In all liklihood people you would have liked had you met them before you killed them. As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news. I have just been settling down after that WONDERFUL derailment last week and news like that dead passenger just renews my jubilation.
"In all liklihood people you would have liked had you met them before you killed them. As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news. I have just been settling down after that WONDERFUL derailment last week and news like that dead passenger just renews my jubilation."
What rock did you crawl out from under? Your posting is beneath contmpt. I'm sure I won't be the only one today but I do want to be the first. Welcome to my Kill-File, moron!!!
"In all liklihood people you would have liked had you met them before you killed them. As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news. I have just been settling down after that WONDERFUL derailment last week and news like that dead passenger just renews my jubilation."
What rock did you crawl out from under? Your posting is beneath contmpt. I'm sure I won't be the only one today but I do want to be the first. Welcome to my Kill-File, moron!!!
"I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news."
I missed this in first reading your post. This explains everything. It also proves that MTA-NYC Transit does get it right. Now, back under your rack - loser....
"As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers......" I have never made a personal attack against anyone on this site. Time to make an exception! But I'll say it politely: You are one sick puppy. Dave ought to permanently ban you from this site, but you'll just take a different mutant handle than you have now and post more written pollution. I have been a TA motorman for 19 1/2 years and I haven't killed anybody yet. Your job description is false! You are an insult to my professionalism and all my fellow transit workers. Labor and management alike.
"Labor and management alike."
Hey hey, lets not go too far. I don't think that this guy could be an insult to management.
"I don't think that this guy could be an insult to management."
Nor do I see maturity in your future.
[As the purpose of NY Transit is to kill the passengers to win govt assistance I am naturally happy and ecstatic when my former employer has such good news.]
Duh.
So, MTA Kills passengers to gain government assistance? --Pal, You need govermnental assistance under Sec. 941 of the N.Y.State Mental Health Law. Try it, you may like it
To quote Lt. Garber from the original Pelham 1-2-3:
You're a sick man, Rico.
BTW, I'm sure you've all heard that Walter Matthau passed away a few days ago. He'll be missed.
response to the left coast as you mistated it ..""left coast race race-bater etc..( the reality check needs to be your own)""
I have moved on to build other websites await my negative film scanner & macintosh floppy disc recorder shooting
vidieos of the red line in spite of the gestapo los angeles sheriffs etc...working on my next ""PROJECT REDBIRD 2000...
& have laid low & avoided and took myself out of this subtalk forum ( because of some of the children here ).........
& only read other messages as some of you continue to ""attack each other": etc......
you just couldnt help yourself U had to yell out the battle cry flamage etc.......& you know the rest ........
Even when I ... ""back off & dissapear"... ( & I did this myself ) sill children persons like yourself cant resist !!!!
I just wish this format was used by all types of rail transit riders & critics worldwide & nationwide with the pros
& cons good & bad of every system & rail transit museums ""message transit phoitographs etc"".................
today all I wanted to do is read others posting pro & con & lay & not post anything at all ....!!!!
but you just couldnt resist your personal assult & attack .... ( typical ) ...... aint that right ??????
Salaam, you are absolutely correct and I'm profoundly sorry but here's the problem. My little dog had a doggy accident on the carpet while I was out last night. Even though my wife and I cleaned it thoroughly, this morning we could still detect the odor. I guess that in time your racist stench will fade as will the smell of his poop. But until then I'll try to remember that you are not really around any more.
which one are you the stinch the dogy accident the odor or your own racist stench & your own poop ??
only you can decide !!!!!
[which one are you the stinch the dogy accident the odor or your own racist stench & your own poop ??
only you can decide !!!!!]
Yo Dude,
Looks like he told you!!!!!???????
.....all I wanted is for the "chuchubob"...e mail chuchbob@yahoo.com to leave me out of the subway_crash_
etc....... poster dropped by the webmaster leave me & leave well enough alone etc....
Right now I have other things to do except recieve personal attacks & flamage on subtalk ( thank you ).....
Yes thats true. Like the rascist odor I still detect about your posting on the McDonald Av incident. Or the odors that still linger about your hatred towards Transit cleaners.
My hatred towards cleaners? Perhaps you've confused me with someone else. I happen to manage an operation that is comprised of 68 cleaners. Virtually every one of them is dedicated if not highly motivated. Several are on the threshhold of promotion. I happen to be extremely proud of my team.As a matter of fact, I don't hate any group of employees except the group that does not work. As for McDonald Avenue, perhaps you can refresh my memory as I haven't got a clue as to what you are referring to.
Steve, Steve, Steve.
On June 30 at 0610 you posted some doggy poo about Khalil Moutraji who was attacked by the F train conductor. You made some rascist references to multi cultralism and society heading to total collapse and his hitting the lottery.
One time I e mailed you about all your negative comments about the cleaners at your location and questioned you about them and you made a miserable attempt to discredit me by posting the email I sent you privately on the board.
Remember?
Since then you changed you handle but I know its you because of all the different type fonts you use, black, red, large, small.
Big deal!!
First, eye witness testimony clearly showed that the passenger first spat on the conductor. They also said that the customer swung his cane at the conductor. I do not agree with the actions taken by the conductor in responce (per TA rule) but I am entitled to my private feelings about the incident and the state of the city. You should have disagreed then when this subject was current.
Second - I'm not sure how many people post on SubTalk. I do know that i was not the first nor the last to change my handle. I did not do it secretly nor in an attempt to hide anything. I very openly proclaimed my reasons for doing so.
[because of some of the children here]
[...sill children persons like yourself cant resist !!!![sic]]
I wish you's stop making age-ist statements. Most of your posts that criticize someone make negative remarks about children. What do you have against children?
Bob
........I just wanted to be ""left out" of the subway_ crash _posts & rersponses ....... etc.........
there was no reason to drag my name out of mothballs compare & put me on the same level with the poster subway_crash _etc.....
since I was ""laying low"" & stayed off the subtalk forum I wanted to be left alone by the children ( they know who they are )
{ smile }.......& as I last said it would be nice to hear from rail transit posters ""WORLD-WIDE".....( thank you ).....
I don't blame you at all. Believe me, having had some experience with this kind of reputation smearing of all parties concerned (and of some who aren't concerned with this specific issue, such as yourself), I can say that being compared to someone who's at the focus of the controversy here is not a good thing.
As for world wide, I happen to live in Toronto.
-Robert King
...thank you very much .........sir !! ...I intended to ""lay off of subtalk"" for a long time as there still needs to be
more posters either removed & or replaced by excellent sane nice & wondreful persons like yourself ..!!!!!
I sure want to shoot a vidieo of the toronto subway one day soon when i visit detroit which is near you etc ......
Again thank you very much Mr Robert King .....!!!!
Salaam,
since you enjoy videotaping trains, may I suggest when you do go to Toronto go to the observation decks of the CN Tower (at the 114th & 147th floors) and videotape the miles of commuter rail trains going in & out of Union Station. I was in Toronto for the first time three weeks ago when I took the family to Niagara Falls and I found the CN Tower views captivating. By the way, Toronto still has streetcars!!
The last time I was in Toronto (1981) I too was fascinated with the views and perspectie offered bythe height. I took dozens of 35 MM slides (No camcorders back then). Anecdotally, I was with my wife and my daughter (who was 12 at the time). As luck would have it, the "Miss Nude World" contest was being judged in the tower the evening that we visited for the night views. Talk about poor timing.
Should have returned later sans family.
-Hank :)
Would the pagent have waited for him to return later. Thats why he said bad timing!!!
By the way, the CN Tower is a great place to watch a Blue Jays game in the Sky Dome, especially on the glass floor on the 113th floor. We were there too early, so only saw batting practice!!
A glass floor 113 stories up? I don't think so.
-Hank
>>> A glass floor 113 stories up? <<<
O.K. Hank, maybe it is not glass, but it is transparent.
Tom
I thought that he was saying he wouldn't walk on it.
Peace,
ANDEE
it's most definitely glass - quite an obscene amount of it, enough to support an elephant, so they say.
Watched part of a Blue Jays game from the glass floor when I was there in 1999. I just lied down on the floor. Had the camcorder's lens on full zoom, looked like I was watching it on TV. When I got up a few minutes later, a group of tourists was awe-struck that I just nonchalantly lied down on that floor 113 floors up. When I said I was from NY, that seemed to explain everything to them!
--Mark
Actually the CN tower is a great place to railfan. You get a view of Toronto Union Station and the Canadian "NEC" to the east and west. You can also see some "real" towers in the active SCOTT ST. and JOHN ST. interlocking towers.
Not for nuthin' but thats what I said when I started this thread.
Try it at night. Some great shots of streetcars on Spadina Ave.
--Mark
If all goes well I'll be there in mid-August - hopefully my wife will be patient, we're planning to have dinner in the revolving restaurant one evening. It will be part of a round-robin rail trip, NY to Toronto, on to Montréal and Quebéc City, then back to Montréal and NY. This is assuming (as seems likely right now) that our previously-planned tour to Prince Edward Island gets cancelled. We'll be taking advantage of Via Rail Canada's Three Cities tour and extending it ourselves, nine days total.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool! If you want a few great restaurants my wife and I went to while we were there, lemme know.
--Mark
thank you very much officer rosen onf the nypd & thank the transit police of nyc for not harrassing me while
shooting vidieotape of the redbirds & the nyc subway system !!!!!
thank you very much officer rosen onf the nypd & thank the transit police of nyc for not harrassing me while shooting vidieotape of the redbirds & the nyc subway system !!!!!
Consistent: Possessing firmness or coherence.
When the posts are negative you say you want to be left alone - that you are too busy for Subtalk. When the posts are positive or neutral you have the time to respond. This is not consistent. I just felt obliged to point this out to you. No need to respond if you are busy. Just enjoy your holiday.
...officer rosen has been respectful to me unlike some other ..............children on this forum ..........
yes i have the right to correct the negative & put it in its place....... & praise & agree with the positive ............
Then am I to assume that your earlier post was untrue, that you are not too busy to respond to subtalk messages. Pavlov's (sp?) dog suffered a similar affliction. By the way, as long as officer Rosen has been so respectful - his name should be capitalized.
.......Take my name of of your ""posts"" please...!!!! do not use my name inside your posts go away & leave well enough alone.. I am leaving you alone etc..........
& yes I am working on other things besides the few children on this forum & thier silly tiny little.. ""sandbox bullying & child play""
I am working on websites & club sites and my drum section jazz recording & mixing audio cds etc.. ( some not transit related )........
& downloading transit photography for the los angeles rail section & others etc...........I am busy doing other things besides
"" some of the children on subtalk " .......& I am raising money for my next ""project redbird"...!!!!!
Actually some of you on this forum are a useless do nothing go nowhere say nothing etc.... waste of time....( thank you ).
Okay everybody. Why is everybody picking on Salaam? He didn't do anything to you guys. Who cares if he capitalizes Rosen or not - this is the web, not English 201. Just leave him alone. Was it not the incessant badgering of Salaam (by Pigs of Royal Island and several others) that led Pirmann to make us all have these stupid passwords in the first place? In the changeover my old identity on this message board ("Seattle Guy") got lost so that no matter what password I type I can't post using it. So let's leave him alone, and Salaam, you can stop being dorogotory about "children" on Subtalk because the people who bug you may be being childish but I am 17 and I don't see how that makes me less eligible to post on these boards. We can all just get along, Right?
I certainly hope so.
And just so that this message isn't COMPLETELY unrelated to transit I'm going to say that I think the Bx12 should be converted to Light Rail (and I believe many of you feel the same way).
So if we can all agreaa that the J subway was a bad idea, and that the Bx12 needs to be an LRT, and that we all wish the Culver Shuttle was still there, etc. etc. etc... then we can also all agree to stop bugging each other like 7th graders!
Abe aka Light Rail Rules! aka Seattle Guy
I agree, Salaam is cool!
......to the last two threads & messages you are what this subtalk forum is all about & I thank you both very much!!!
******************************************************************************************************************************************
THANK YOU !!!!
Tomorrow I pick up my negative scanner to my epson 2500 that will enable me to scan from my negatives..
& I will buy a PC floppy scanner to add to my G3 machitosh from there soon I will publish my own transit page
with excellent thuimnails & pictures !!! Wish me well the last two subtalkers & I thank you very much !!
Salaam: Since you are my next door neighbor, so to speak, I third the motion. We Californians have to stick together. There are a lot of my buddies out there who don't like our great state----for whatever reason. Remember the Lakers, boys??????
hey california is cool - when they have to lengthen the platforms on a light rail line (blue) because it is maxed out and still SRO all day that's my idea of transit
Abe
Fred: Its not that we don't appreciate California. Its just that here in New York we put clorine in our drinking water,in California you use a different chemical compound in yours.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All also all that Smog that you breath in Arcadia-Pasadena Foothills. On a Clear Day, You Can Next door.
The Lakers...yeah...Aren't they that unruly mob that went a a rampage celebrating the NBA Championship?
Funny, New York has the reputation, but when was the last time New Yorkers set fire to a cop car in 'celebration' of a sports championship? Can you say NEVER?
-Hank
You at least make sense. You have also yet to lie, contradict yourself, or post a "fact", insist that it is true in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and fail to support your own argument with any sources. You also haven't resorted to the 'You're all out to get me!' defense when your phony "fact" is revealed.
Oh, and it's English 001 where they teach you how to use pronouns and proper punctuation. You can't GET to 201 without that simple bit of knowledge.
-Hank
actually by us that would be English 80 but the point is I think we have better things to do then filling up this message board with posts that do nothing more than criticize another person's captilization.
It goes much further than capitalization and punctuation. It goes to repetition of subjects, ad-nauseum. It goes to making anti-white and anti police stanements. It goes to being totally obnoxious. He is reaping just what he has sown.
Hmmmm . . . converting the Pelham Parkway/Fordham Road bus to light rail. I guess I'm not the only one who wants to see light rail there. As someone who's had the misery of riding the old Bx12 many times (I live fairly close to the 12 bus), I can say that it is not a fun experience, especially along Fordham Road. If the 12 was converted to light rail, it would certainly have to go under ground along Fordham Road because it's a NIGHTMARE to travel along that road with all the double parking. When I was 16 I took driving lessons and my instructor had me drive along Fordham. Never again will I drive on that road. It's bad! Light rail for Fordham and Pelham Parkway is a good idea!
I know there was a thread on this not long ago. I'm going to look for those postings to find what other people think about Bx12 LRT. But just one question: Where would the light rail line go after Fordham? Would it end at 207th and Broadway like the bus does now or would it continue from there. I say extend it to the Hudson River and have it turn south along Amtrak's Hudson Line tracks to get to Midtown. How about that?
Need gratification? Net is full of means.
Arti
do something constructive etc.... check out my website .. since you insist .....
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/5347
I am sure this site will fill your need for the gratification !! many means there .....enjoy!!!!!!
thank you very much officer rosen of the nypd & thank the transit police of nyc for not harrassing me while
shooting vidieotape of the redbirds & the nyc subway system !!!!!
I was going to delete this thread but you know what, I decided to take the others advice on this one.
You're no longer welcome here. Your handle's been disabled. Please don't write me and complain.
Lets not get into a censorship debate here. Obviously not everyone will agree with me but if it really offends you, you can easily start up a chat board of your own.
-Dave
I'm with you, Dave Pirmann.
Dave,
Normally I am against censorship in any form. In the past I have thought that you have pre-empted threads too quickly. However, as I have said before, it's your ball game and we all have agreed to play by your rules. Having said that, in this case i agree whole-heartedly with your actions. This person had expressed some very hateful thoughts without any redeeming factors. Subtalk will be more civilized without that hate-monger and hopefully it will serve as a worning to the other hate-monger(s) among us. Thank You
"Free Speech ceases to be free when it becomes Hate Speech."
-Unknown, CSI, Spring 1998 Semester.
-Hank
I don't know about that. If the target of the speech deserves it hate speech can be am important tool for getting rid of evill. If we assume that most people are rational they will be able to listen to all hate speech and determine rightly which is justified (like targeting dictators and republicans and the like). I frankly have no problem ith hate groups spouting hate speech. It usually makes them look like idiots and morons. The easiest way to denounce these groups is to let them shoot their mouth off. That aside I see any infringement on free speech as the thin end of the wedge to more sweeping regulation.
I feel that Mr Subway Crash deserved a good ass kicking, but barring that a ban is equally annoying.
This is Dave's living room, and we are guests in it. Dave is not the government and has no obligation to tolerate individuals who are persistently offensive.
Someone mentioned to me about the movie 'Network' that the truest supporter of free speech is the guy who defends the right of someone whose views offend him to speak his piece. Basically, an orthodox jew letting the nazi speak his piece.
-Hank
Are you suggesting that the orthodox are more offended by the nzis than the rest of us?
I has been said that those who would deny freedom to others do not deserve it themselves. Which means, of course, that we must extend freedom to the undeserving. Nevertheless, this website is a private place, not a public street; and the proprietor has the right to decide for himself to what degree he will tolerate obnoxious characters.
I'm just trying to make an understandable example. And any Jew would be more offended at a nazi than anyone else, for it is they who faced the most persecution.
And, as you say, the owner of the soapbox gets to say who can speak.
-Hank
Any Jew would be more offended at a nazi than anyone else.
Are you sure? I would certainly hope that any of our Christian or Muslim brethren - indeed, any civilized person - would be just as offended as we are by such an affront to society, regardless of whether or not they have personally experienced persecution for their faith or anything else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hate speech is free speech, the 1st amendment doesn't have any footnotes that I know of. BUT since this is a private venue Dave has the right to discipline or banish the occasional unrelenting moron that chooses to spew nonsense here. It's like we are all in Dave's backyard, sometimes he has to open the window and tell a troublemaker to get lost.
The NYCT and, I'm sure most larger corporations, have adopted a policy of zero tollerance to racist or sexual comments. It has been held in civil courts nationwide that where a company tollerates such speech, it is, in effect, condoning and promoting a hostile work environment. As such they can be held liable which translates into $$$$$. Today, your favorite Polish joke can get you terminated.
Great! It's about time!! Such "humor" is ignorant and does nothing but contribute to the poisoned social climate which has served no other purpose than to further undermine those very freedoms we all enjoy.
Eric Dale Smith
[The NYCT and, I'm sure most larger corporations, have adopted a policy of zero tollerance to racist or sexual comments. It has been held in civil courts nationwide that where a company tollerates such speech, it is, in effect, condoning and promoting a hostile work environment. As such they can be held liable which translates into $$$$$. Today, your favorite Polish joke can get you terminated.]
Wrong. Minorities can tell all the horrible degrading jokes about whites they want, and they won't get in any trouble.
How true that is! I remember observing anti-white messages in a Bronx IRT mensroom. Also, I overheard two people making anti-white comments in a Queens IND crewroom during the first O.J. trial.
Beg to differ, Peter. I cannot speak for all cases but there have been 3 very recent cases of racial bias in the TA where minorities were disciplined for intollerant statements about others. One of them actually began here on SubTalk. In another case, a West Indian gentleman was suspended because a Russian Jew was next up for overtime and he took the job. The West Indian, thus, was unable to work that night. In the heat of anger he stated that he should have been given the assignment because "The Jew has enough money." He has been suspended since. Has this gone too far? Perhaps but the law states that this kind of speech constitutes a hostile work environment and if the organization takes no action - in is a willing accomplice in perpetuating that environment.
[I cannot speak for all cases but there have been 3 very recent cases of racial bias in the TA where minorities were disciplined for intollerant statements about others. One of them actually began here on SubTalk. In another case, a West Indian gentleman was suspended because a Russian Jew was next up for overtime and he took the job. The West Indian, thus, was unable to work that night. In the heat of anger he stated that he should have been given the assignment because "The Jew has enough money." He has been suspended since. Has this gone too far? Perhaps but the law states that this kind of speech constitutes a hostile work environment and if the organization takes no action - in is a willing accomplice in perpetuating that environment.]
Well, those are hopeful signs. I sort of suspect that the TA is more enlightened in that regard than are most private employers, as it's long been integrated.
That's not entirely true. It gets ANYONE in trouble for telling off-color jokes of any kind.
You seem to be basing your "facts" on generalities and supposed "statistical data."
I work in a multi-ethnic environment and have seen blacks and other "minorities" get reprimanded for telling off-color jokes just as much as whites (many of the jokes in question, BTW, were not ethnic-specific, but gender-based).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, without opening a whole new can of worms, in general, the punishment for minorities is usually less severe than for whites in the same situation.
[Doug, without opening a whole new can of worms, in general, the punishment for minorities is usually less severe than for whites in the same situation.]
Based on what.....???
BTW, since I like to go fishing -- caught some Fluke this Saturday at Montauk -- opening up cans of worms is something I would enjoy doing.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, from the views of the people who put out 'Third Rail' (I'm aquaited with a few), they feel that minorities SHOULD be allowed to 'get away' with certain 'activities' because in the United States, they have been oppressed for so long, the current white establishment needs to make up for the errors of their great-great-grandfathers. My response to that is usually along the lines of Jews being allowed the same 'liberties' as the minorities of which they speak, for similar reasons.
-Hank
Based on what.....???
Based on observations of actual disciplinary cases. Also the notion that certain minorities believe that they cannot be considered racist despite their views.
Based on what.....???
Based on observations of actual disciplinary cases. Also the notion that certain minorities believe that they cannot be considered racist despite their views.
As for fishing, my brother is the fisherman in the family. He made the cover of "Northeast Saltwater" some time back when he landed a 357 LB Mako. Two weeks ago, one of my employees also took 4th place in a sharking contest when he landed a 294 LB Mako. I've also promised to go out to Montauk (or at least Captree) with a few of my
CTAs. Perhaps we'll bump into you there...
[As for fishing, my brother is the fisherman in the family. He made the cover of "Northeast Saltwater" some time back when he landed a 357 LB Mako. Two weeks ago, one of my employees also took 4th place in a sharking contest when he landed a 294 LB Mako. I've also promised to go out to Montauk (or at least Captree) with a few of my
CTAs. Perhaps we'll bump into you there... ]
Verrrry impressive -- a 357 lb. Mako!
I'll be out at Montauk again sometime just after Labor Day (when the rates go down). For the past two years my strategy w/Montauk is to make reservations prior to the month of May (work schedule permitting) with my dates being the week or weekend before the 4th of July (this way I get cheaper room rates, but benefit from good fishing weather and less "tourists" clogging up the center of town).
Incidentally, since last year I leave the car at home and w/my MTA bike pass take the LIRR from E. New York station and make transfers to the Montauk branch (at Babylon). With gas prices being what they are I find the $20.50 round-trip a hell of alot cheaper than taking my "boat" out to "land's end."
Of course the trip is much more pleasant now that the bi-level coaches are the norm for the Montauk branch.
Doug aka BMTman
.... and now for something completely different !
Good for the two of you for changing the subject ... I too like to open a can of worms now and then.
Mr t__:^)
I'm going to do a little pier fishing tomorrow for the first time this year. I always say I'm going to fish all year 'round but always when summer ends my fishing ends with it. Hopefully, I'll catch a couple of fish tomorrow, and then out group will charter a boat and really get into it.
Where in the LA River?
No that's where you race convertable cars with your hair GREASEd down.
Mr t__:^)
[Wrong. Minorities can tell all the horrible, degrading jokes about whites they want, and they won't get in any trouble.]
I must disagree here. In my office, even a parody of an ethnic-style joke (e.g. "An economist, a chemist, and a physicist were trapped on a desert island...") would land the joke-teller in VERY hot water, if not boiling oil.
BTW, it is my experience that most employers today concern themselves more with reprimanding employees who make sexist or homophobic jokes rather than ethnic jokes. Alot of that has to do with the new EEOC guidelines and the fact that more gays (and lesbians) are in positions of authority -- particularly in federal and municipal employment.
Doug aka BMTman
> I have thought that you have pre-empted threads too quickly.
Really? Recently I've thought I've waited too long to cut down some of the crap that goes on. It's usually clear from the first couple of posts that the thread is going to degenerate into senseless verbal violence anyway.
While I, too, am opposed to censorship, the awful comments made by Subway_Crash warranted his dismissal. I do not see the humor in poking fun at people's unfortunate demise. It is unnescessary, uncalled for, and completely tasteless; and has no place on this message board.
I can only hope and pray that he sees the error of his ways, and realizes that it is only by the grace of God that it was not he who perished in such a horrible way.
Good work, Dave. As I had told you in the past he was the one person I thought might deserve the killfile.
Thank you Dave. This Subway Crash was the only Subtalker I truely disliked (even considering Mr. LA transit system)
.....please leave me out of this & please do not mention my name thank you ..........
I'm not particularly pleased with the process (but not necessarily the end result) that Mr. Pirmann has followed here because if we really wanted to clear things up, we'd ask Subway_Crash to fully explain his submissions, and justify the reasoning behind them, and then start disabling handles if there is a reason to.
With the situation as it currently stands, we can only guess at whether or not Subway_Crash was speaking sarcastically or not of the accidents that the MTA has been having with the aging Redbird fleet dragging objects snagged in their doors, passengers falling onto tracks etc. Unfortunately Subway_Crash's ability to explain himself has been preemptively removed before he could explain himself, so we will likely never know what his actual intentions were. If we asked Subway_Crash what he intended in his submissions it would be a nonstarting effort because he can't respond.
Essentially, what I am trying to say is that I'm displeased that I can now only hear one side of the story because of a third party's decision. I am also saying that imposing a punishment (in this case handle deleting, effected Mr. Pirmann) before the other side (Subway_Crash) can defend himself is what I personally find to be heavy handed and a disgusting failure to adhere to due process.
I will be including a chat room in the next update to my website, which should be reasonably soon.
-Robert King
robaking@hotmail.com
http://members.xoom.com/wobit/
I've managed to steer clear of this discussion so far, but here I will administer my 2¢ worth; to wit - You are entitled to your own views and opinions; however this is Dave's 'house' as it were, and he is entitled to run it as he sees fit. I read most of the offender's postings and found them to be mostly without merit; he seems to have an axe to grind; and this forum is not the place for that. And Dave has dealt with it accordingly. Your own forum is exactly the place for continuation of such discussions.
wayne
I will have a forum - soon. As I said, it will be included in the next update to my website, which has not happened yet.
Correct, everybody is entitled to run their website in whatever manner suits them. I can speak from experience, because I do have my own website: If you run it in a way that visitors disagree with, they might criticize you. You have to accept that, that you will recieve criticism, when you start a website. Owning a website does not grant you any immunity from recieving criticism regarding your actions on it.
Now concerning my submission: I never said I sided with Subway_Crash's views. Read it carefully - it only pertains to how Subway_Crash and this forum have been handled by the forum owner.
-Robert King
robaking@hotmail.com
http://members.xoom.com/wobit/
I think Subway_Crash has posted here long enough to realize that you probably would not get the answers you are looking for. You're obviously able to write to him in email and get his side of the story-- I'm not preventing you from getting the answers you require if he's willing to share them with you. But I think it's been long enough that he's been able to grind his axe in my back yard.
Hey, Bob, Dave did the right thing -- That guy (Subway_Crash) is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
I've been combing through the previous messages here, via the search engine, and that is the conclusion I'm reaching myself. Whenever Microsoft deals with Hotmail (I'm getting the message saying that the server my account happens to reside on is 'unavailable', and that they should have it back up soon) I'll email and hope I get some answers. I suppose I should say for the benefit of anybody who has tried to send me email, that I haven't been able to retrive it yet either.
-Robert King
"if we really wanted to clear things up, we'd ask Subway_Crash to fully explain his submissions, and justify the reasoning behind them,"
Robert, for the better part of this year, I have repeatedly asked Mr. Crash and his various other handles to stop talking his Ping-Pong BS and if he had something to say, say it plainly. He chose to continue in riddles. Sadly, I believe that he did have some legitimate information although I obviously disagreed with his conclusions. Having said that, I think his most recent post was outrageously slanderous and blatently untrue. At best it was irresponsible and inflamatory. Alas, we'll now never learn the entire Al Garner story nor will we ever know who C/R Steinbach is.
Thanks, Dave.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't care about censorship, I don't care about how it's supposed to work. I thank you for your actions regarding this creatures hateful postings. Thank you sir and have a safe 4th of July
I would just like to ring in with something here.
This guy was not at all CELEBRATING the deaths of passengers! His "thank God" and other comments to that effect were clear uses of shocking SARCASM, expressing his theory that NYC Transit is killing people intentionally.
Now, if you want to take him to task for that claim, then go right ahead.
But, no one should insinuate that this guy was in any way happy about these deaths. If you had read this guy's previous posts, you would know that this guy was OUTRAGED over injuries and deaths of people on the system, and that his claim about Transit killing people grew out of this OUTRAGE.
So, attack him for drawing the wrong conclusion -- for seeing incompetence, negligence, and ass-covering, and then confusing it with an intentional plan to kill people.
But, don't attack him for being happy about -- or even indifferent to -- the suffering and death of people on the tracks, because he was not.
Ferdinand Cesarano
i have followed the posts of subway_crash and an earlier handle that he used ... his views and ways of expressing himself were shocking and disturbing... he frightened me, because i really felt he believed what he said, as he was always ready to provide proof of his allegations... the original title of his post was especially offensive since it seemingly was thanking god for the death of a passenger... what he actually believed i don't really know...
however, i think everyone who posted responses under that same banner shares some responsibility for continuing the outrageous words... the subject titles of a response can be altered... there have been other occasions when flaming words and off color words have been duplicated from posting to posting... on a less outrageous level, there has been a string of posts using todd glickman's name, even after i think he genuinely asked people not to continue dragging his name as a subject heading...
"as he was always ready to provide proof of his allegations.."
Proof in your eyes only. He made claims and then said go to the library of Cogress and look it up. If he wanted to provide real proof, he should have posted the documentation or at the very least, a link. I guess your standard of proof depends on whether it's pro-management or anti-management.
I respectfully suggest that you re-read Heypaul's post. I think that it is clear from the context (maybe not clear enough) that Heypaul was not endorsing the quality of the proof, just pointing out that the guy seemed to think he had proof and, therefore, seemed to actually believe what he was posting.
It was clear. Heypaul and I have fundimental differences of phylosophy. My post was meant to point to the fact that heypaul requires a much lower standard of proof (or the vague promise of proof) when the post is anti-management.
Personally I thought it was obvious that the "Thank G-d" in his post was sarcasm against the TA. In all of Mr Johnson's posts he had outrageous conspirical theories about the TA causing deaths of passengers, ergo his nickname, and expressed outrage about it.
Well, the way I read it is that yet another death is another piece of evidence backing up his viewpoint in that the TA will do anything to disregard safety in favor of lining their pockets. I didn't see any sarcasm there. I see that he wants evidence to back up his claims- when someone dies, he'll use it to his own advantage.
I hadn't read it that way. But, now that you point it out, ....
A latent ambiguity?
His nickname alone sent him to my killfile long ago. Just something unsettling about it and his rants.
[This guy was not at all CELEBRATING the deaths of passengers! His "thank God" and other comments to that effect were clear uses of shocking SARCASM, expressing his theory that NYC Transit is killing people intentionally.]
Sarcasm is difficult to pull off, whether you're talking about books, movies, or Subtalk postings. Subway Crash didn't manage it.
I don't know about that. Having read several of his other posts, he seemed quite happy to see bad things hapening. Sarcasm is usally tempered by some level-headed opinionating, or even other posts where real views are stated. Even before the recent rash of draggings, he had made several posts attesting to his 'belief' that the MTA was 'better off' when things went wrong, and in fact hoped for more.
-Hank
07/02/2000
With the Fourth of July and OP Sail coming up, it seems that HBLR may be put to the test. Will they be running MU'd sets or extra trains? Maybe those NIMBY's who knocked HBLR may be convinced of it's importance.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't have their usual schedule, but service will start to Liberty State Park starting 5:30AM at seven minute intervals.
Intresting, I saw a railroad clerk (opps sorry, what are we calling you guys now? Customer Service Agent or something political correct?) emptying the turnstiles at Kings Highway on the F line. Now this is a fairly busy station for Brooklyn. Not real busy but enough. The clerk just used his hand to catch the tokens.
Metrocard use is up so much, gone are the days of the tokens hitting that medal pail and rushing down the shute. The clerk just held his hand under the shute to collect maybe 4 or 5 tokens a turnstile (6 total). Intresting no?
What's a token?
We are Station Agents. Yes- while MetroCard use is up there are still many stations where a bag or bucket is needed for tokens. For secuirty I wont list those stations.
Yesterday, there was a fire (!) at the end of the Roosevelt St (E/F/G/R) Jamaica bound platform. The fire was at one of those garbage piles we've seen along the Queens Blvd line heavily infested with rats. People just watch the fire burn and walk away. There were no signs of TA workers. It seems to me the fire may be set by TA to kill the rats... or was it set by some pranksters?
If it was set to kill the rats, then I should get my nasal cavity cleaned of the smoke (yuck!)
No TA workers? That's interesting because those piles are directly in front of the tower!
Once again, NYC will be graced with my prescence:)
Taking advantage of my day off I'll get to tackle the HBLR unlike I was able to do when I was there last Saturday.
BTW, I saw a schedule for the running of the R-110B's last week. Is that still in effect for Tuesday?
We will be honored by your august presence??? We would spread out the red carpet but Rudy might think we are trying to block the steps of City Hall and send his Commisar of Police after us (I spelled it right).
Should we alert HBLR to have the welcoming committe at Exchange Place in full regalia???
========================
All kidding aside. Enjoy your trip to the city and have a safe 4th.
I saw a schedule for the running of the R-110B's last week. Is that still in effect for Tuesday?
Even on normal days, half the time it doesn't run. If the guys at 207 feel like taking it out for a walk, they will in the time slot indicated on the schedule.
I did put the R110B schedule up but I don't know or can predict when it will run. Since tomorrow is a Saturday schedule (I think), it will not run.
When a trolley approaches a turnout, how does the T/O select between the main route and the diverging route? I know a few locations have towers but most do not, particularly where the tracks run in the street.
On a side note, I've been watching the GPS Videos on Boston Trolleys. They have two (part 1 and Part 2); Part 1 covers the years 1948 - 56 and includes footage on the Type 4, Type 5 and PCC cars, as well as a smattering of other, earlier types. Part 2 covers more of the same material but from other photographers in addition to Foster Palmer (who provided all the film footage for the first tape and narration, too.) Some great footage of the Seashore RR museum, as well. Fascinating videos and a must-have for trolley fans.
I know one way for the switch to set is when the trolley crosses a certain point the car is pulling power or not. Power on the switch sets to diverging, power off it is straight through.
In the game Trolley Time Challange this is the way to pick your route.
In Trolley Time Challenge, there is a white line across the tracks
just before the switch. You decide power on, or power off at that point to set your route. I have the game and still stink at applying
the brakes the right way. Anyone have any ideas?
Chuck Greene
On PCC cars you have a necessary Action switch that lets you select with the button not the controler.
The button does the same thing as putting the car under power though. It creates a current draw that causes the switch to throw.
Joe
I fan them, but in real life at the Brandford I would get in trouble doing that...
The other two remote control systems that I know of for setting track switches from aboard a streetcar are (very simply explained, I can go into a little more detail if anybody wants), in order from older to newer:
1) A contact system where a little attachment on the streetcar pole passes through a device located on top of the streetcar's overhead wire, before the switch is reached. The streetcar driver holds a button/switch on their streetcar's control, if they want to have the switch move to its other position, while the streetcar passes beneath the device on the wire, and a signal is sent up the pole to the device which then causes the switch in the track to move.
2) From the streetcar driver's point of view it is essentially the same to use, a pushbutton or other similar control to be held down as the streetcar approaches the switch, but instead uses two radio antennas on the streetcar - one on the leading edge of the leading truck and the other on the trailing edge of the trailing truck of the streetcar. Recieving loops are embeded between the running rails at three locations around the switch. The first is on the approach. It is designed to recieve the signal from the antenna located on the streetcar's first truck, and depending on the signal recieved (activated by the driver using the control button), moves the switch if necessary. The other two radio loops are positioned after the switch, between the running rails in each possible direction. Their purpose is to detect the signal broadcast from the rear antenna, indicating that the streetcar has cleared the switch, and causes the switch to revert to its default position.
The second system, which uses radio, allows for different length streetcars to be used with remote controllable switches. With the pole contactor system, the leading edge of an articulated streetcar would already be through the switch by the time the pole reaches the suspended detector box to set the switch, while driver on a short, nonarticulated streetcar, would have to use the remote activation button much earlier, if the suspended device was located far enough away from the switch to accomodate articulated streetcars. Another advantage of the radio system is that it does away with maintaining the little box suspended above the streetcar wire.
-Robert King
A simpler method of controlling track switch alignment that was used in many cities was a "coast or take power" rule. As described in choice 1, there would be a contactor device on the wire which could be activated by a button on the control panel, or by taking a point of power, or by coasting while under the contactor. Coasting was an action. Instead of having to read the iron, which could be difficult under certain snow, slush and traffic conditions, the operator had to follow a rule like "Coast to the right, take power to the left" or the opposite - "Coast to the left...". These rules would be universal within one traction company. Problems come about with M.U. operation. In such circumstances the contact system has to be more elaborate to assure that the second car did not cancel the action of the first car. Since many street switches were at intersections where the cars stopped for passengers, the operators had to know when the poles were under the contactors. When one had a mix of equipment, such as single truck Birneys sharing the same line as double truck cars, operators had to be particularly accurate. Heavy traffic required concentration at the same time. However, the advantage to the operator over having to get out and align the point with a switch iron was a substantial motivator to get the "spot" precisely right for each switch with each type of car.
Sometimes a rule was hung from the overhead, such as "NA" (Necessary Action) in Toronto. As with curve clearance and weight restrictions, and knowledge of true alternative routes that did not entrap the trolley and prevent it from getting back on its line, power track switch operation was some of the detailed knowledge that a seemingly simple job required.
An expansion to Ray's excellent post.
The electric switch has to be one of the most mysterious of anything in streetcardom.
The standard electric switch has a contactor on the trolley wire that is located about 55 feet from the switchpoint. A motorman wishing to take the diverging route must draw 1 point of power as he passes under the contactor. He must also apply the brake slightly to prevent car speed from building up too high. To take the normal (straight) route the motorman must "drift" meaning shut off power while passing under the contactor.
Proper operation of the electric switch is an art that must be taught and practiced.
MU operation added a problem. Having more than one pole on the wire can cause serious problems with electric switches. One way to avoid this is to use "bus jumpers" which transmit trolley power to trailing cars. Baltimore's famous 5800 series "Red Rockets" used this method to reduce the number of poles on ther wire, so did Shaker Rapid with PCC cars.
Another way of preventing improper electric switch operation with MU trains is the use of locking and unlocking contactors at electric switches. A locking contactor is located just behind the switch contactor. A pole passing through the locking contactor locks the switch to any other pole. The locking contactor also counts poles in.
An unlocking contactor is located (usually) just ahead of the switch frog. This unlocks the electric switch for the next car or train. The locking contactor sends the number of poles it regestered to the unlocking contactor.
Toronto's NA (Necessity Action) system is actually quite simple. Concerned with reducing the number of electric switch accidents on the TTC system, they developed the NA system. Every electric switch uses a resistor of about 4000 ohms as part of the sensing system (Power on, power off). All TTC did was take that 4000 ohm resistor from the control box and put it on every car. The resistor is connected to the trolley and ground through a switch. On standard cars the switch was a foot pedal, on PCC cars the switch was in a large metal housing on the dash. To take the diverging route the motorman/operator must take a "necessary action" (pushing the pedal or the button) to set the switch. To take the normal route the motorman/opeator takes no action.
The system was tested in 1948 on the Rogers Road line and was completely successful. The NA system was installed on the entire TTC system by summer 1950. The result was an almost 100% reduction in electric switch accidents.
What was unusual was that the system was not adopted by any other streetcar system in the US or Canada, even though it was far superior to the standard method. It is still in use today in Toronto.
Now, another question:
What is "St. Louis type" control for electric switches, and how does it differ from standard control? I have seen mention of it in several books, but no explanation of what it is.
Dan, a 4000 ohm resistor? I'm confused. How can the electric
switch contactor distinguish between the current drawn through
a 4000 ohm resistor (0.15 A) and the normal, power-off load of
lights, compressors, et al.?
I don't know what St Louis control is. Do you have a particular
citation in mind?
The standard electric switch control allows for the power settings to be set high enough to basically ignore lights, compressors and MG sets. (That setting is higher than a pair of WH 49 or 56 motor pair will draw on one point series.) I believe the resistor is around 4000 ohm, it may be higher. It's that 0.15 A draw that pulls the double contact relay up to the setting to "pull the switch". I'm not an engineer, so what I'm quoting may not be exact as to the resistor value. If no draw, the relay drops to throw the point to the normal (straight) position.
I forgot in my very long post to include 1 component of the TTC NA system: The wire from the NA pedal or button is connected to a button mounted on the right side of the trolley harp. That button conducts the NA signal to the contactor. Toronto's contactors only have a contact on the right side of the assembly rather than the standard two.
As to "St. Louis type" electric switch control. Harold E. Cox's "PCC Cars of North America" (1963) showed that electric switch control for all the SLPS PCC's. I've never found out how it differs.
Oh, now I know what you are talking about. There is
an independent contact, rather than relying on the series
draw. I dunno about StLouis. Perhaps it's an inductive loop
system?
I don't think it's an induction loop, we are talking about 1930's (or earlier) technology, and I don't believe a system using that was small enough to put on a car. The inductive loop system used on the Broad Street Subway used a large pre-tuned loop coil to select routes. The B4 Kawasaki cars have a permanently mounted selectively tuned coil mounted on each car to do the same thing.
I think this a question for the community: Does anybody really know what St. Louis type switch control is?
The resistor based NA switches have been replaced since the introduction of ALRVs with a radio system which is actually quite interesting because the streetcars constantly boadcast a signal. The switches have a little PCB card inside which records the car number (or in some cases another identifying number which can be traced back to a single streetcar), the time that the front and rear antennas pass the loops between the rails and the date. This information can be downloaded and anylized.
For example, the TTC has caught, by looking at the data and knowing the distance between antennas on a given streetcar, how long it took to clear a radio reciveing loop, and by doing the necessary physics, has caught streetcar drivers blasting through switches at high speeds (higher than the TTC likes). The TTC has also found a few other interesting things happen - drivers have entered a switch, found they have begun moving the wrong way, and reversed off the switch, set it, and then pass all the way through in the correct direction...
Most of the time that a switch is not in service electrically (NA button on console doesn't operate it, and must therefore be thrown manually with a switch iron) it is because the PCB card has been removed to download the accumulated data, and a spare not installed in its place.
-Robert King
07/02/2000
FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....FLASH.....
The Circle Line Metrocard "Escape the everday...ride the beast" is now available. I got mine at the MVM at the 34th St. 7th Ave (1,2,3,9) station. The card looks very nice with two boats with sharks teeth painted on the front. So it looks like they're here folks!
Bill "Newkirk"
Reporting
--Why was 59th Street not made an express stop on what is now the #1-2-3...In the early 1900s, it was hardly a no man's land, and it was the edge of Central Park, which had been there since the 1850s.
--And, why are no free transfers permitted from uptown to downtown at 72nd Street...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Free transfers at 72/ Bway were done away with in the late 80's due to the severe overcrowding at this tiny station. it was thought that anything that would help keep people off the stairs who weren't leaving (entering) the station would help.
Rather annoyng for the tourist who takes an uptown 2/3 to go to 59th/Columbus or Lincoln Center, realizes they passed their stop, and gets off at 72nd only to realize that they can't cross over, and must take the next uptown express to 96th and cross over, take a downtown express to 72nd, and then the local to their stop.
>>>Rather annoyng for the tourist who takes an uptown 2/3 to go to 59th/Columbus or Lincoln
Center, realizes they passed their stop, and gets off at 72nd only to realize that they can't
cross over, and must take the next uptown express to 96th and cross over, take a downtown
express to 72nd, and then the local to their stop. <<<
Exactly what happened to me on Sunday, I realized we were speeding b y 59th, I got off at 72nd, and popped for the extra ride back to ColCircle.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Another way for the MTA to promote the sale of unlimited Metrocards.
How in the world are they going to widen the tunnel to make 59 St an express stop??? They did it on the Lexington, because it was one level down, right below the local (and the BMT), and they just had to blast the walls to add in the platforms and put in a couple of stairways below the current ones (1962). On the 7th Avenue line they'd have to tear out the current platforms, widen the tunnels, move the tracks, build new platforms, stairways, etc. To do that they would probably have to close the line for 3 years.
The 72 St. station is the last "original" upper Bway entrance and is very crowded. An interesting anecdote concerns the similar (at one time) 116 St.-Columbia University station. The day after a student was killed running across Bway to the IRT entrance in the center (around 1967), plans were made to change the station to a stairway on each sidewalk of Bway and to close the building in the middle. 72 is the last of its kind.
To reduce the crowding at 72nd st, they could make the station a local stop. People who walk to 72nd instead of 79th or 66th just for the express train might start choosing the less crowded stops.
That would reduce the crowding at 72nd -- but would increase the crowding at 42nd and 96th and, worse yet, on the local trains themselves, none of which can afford it.
Since 72nd is in the early stages of a rehab, the point is moot. Supposedly the platforms will be lengthened (how, I don't know, as they taper to a point at either end, so the local tracks will have to be moved) and a new, wider will be installed on what used to be the northbound lanes of Broadway.
07/04/2000
On this 72nd St. station rehab, I was told a new station building will be built north of the old one. Is this true and what will happen to the old station building?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't have any official information, but I don't think the old one will be torn down -- doesn't it have landmark status? My guess is that both will be used.
Hope it will be kept; even if not a landmark it is an architectural treasure.
If 59th was your final destination, you could have taken a bus (M5 or M104) free of charge to complete your journey.
Why was 59th Street not made an express stop on what is now the #1-2-3...In the early 1900s, it was hardly a no man's land, and it was the edge of Central Park, which had been there since the 1850s.
Because 42nd (Grand Central) and 72nd were already express stops. Adding 59th would cause unnecessary delay. Of course, nowadays, with the transfer to the IND, an express stop there would be very useful.
And, why are no free transfers permitted from uptown to downtown at 72nd Street...
The small stationhouse has entrances on the north and south sides and staircases on the east and west sides. The fare barriers were essentially rotated 90 degrees in the 80's so that a single token booth could serve all passengers.
>>>The small stationhouse has entrances on the north and south sides and staircases on the
east and west sides. The fare barriers were essentially rotated 90 degrees in the 80's so that
a single token booth could serve all passengers. <<<
A mistake, since it prohibits free uptown-downtown transfers...
But how many people really need free uptown-downtown transfers? I agree it's a nice bonus, and since it's the norm at express stations perhaps there should be announcements (I'm pretty sure there already is explicit signage).
FWIW, if you need to transfer the other way (from a downtown train to an uptown train), just take the local one more stop -- there's a crossunder at 66th. There's also one at 59th. (Strictly speaking, the IRT crossunder at 59th was closed about ten years ago, as was a perfectly useless passageway connecting the two ends of the uptown platform. But the IND platforms function just fine as a crossunder for the IRT.)
It mystifies me why the PW LIRR branch stays with one train per hour during big wekend series at Shea...yet schedules two trains per weekend hours for the Open. I've been on the extra PW train during the Open, and it',s well, devoid of paying customers. Yet, you really need extra trains when Shea is packed.
Comments?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[It mystifies me why the PW LIRR branch stays with one train per hour during big wekend series at Shea...yet schedules two trains per weekend hours for the Open. I've been on the extra PW train during the Open, and it',s well, devoid of paying customers. Yet, you really need extra trains when Shea is packed.]
Could the organizers of the Open be covering some of the costs of the extra service?
Or the MTA thinks going by demoraphics, U.S. Open Tennis fans are more likely to shell out the extra money for the LIRR coming from Manhattan to Flushing Meadows and/or have more people coming in from the north shore to the Open that want to get there at a specific time.
I will be missing from the site for awhile due to attending the week long Punxsutawney Ground Hog Festival.
I was thinking of trying to recruit some of these great tunnel builders to assist in constructing the second avenue subway, but since NY is built on rock I guess they would not be of much help!
karl... are you trying to take over as subtalk comedian? what is the punxsutawney ground hog festival?
February 2nd is groundhog day. On this day in Pennsylvania, several towns have pet groundhogs to forecast the weather. In Punxsutawney lives the most famous of these groundhogs, his name is Phil. Haven't you ever heard of Punxsutawney Phil? If he sees his shadow on the morning of Feb 2nd, we will have six more weeks of winter. If he doesn't, spring will be early that year.
February is not a good time to have an outdoor festival; therefore, the festival is held the first week in July. This festival is held in Barclay Square, which is in the center of the town. Phil lives here during the other 364 days of the year.
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP!!!!
I believe you! They do some strange things in Pennstlvania, must be some mineral or something in the water. Anyway - I wonder if Punxsutawney has or had a railroad station; if it DOES (even though not active, I'll bet), might be interesting PRR architecture there, including carved Keystone cartouches and an ornate station house &c. could be worth checking out.
wayne
Evidence of the PRR is scant(visited early 90's). The extant railroad was the Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh, owned by the B&O between1932 and 198x when CSX(the geniuses) sold it off. Some stations still exist as well as several Interlocking towers which are notable as reinforced poured concrete structures very similar to some New Haven towers.
I believe you. I also remember that several (please do not ask how long ago. My brain is choked to too much other stuff for me to recover everything I know) years ago, Phil got irritated with his handler and bit him, just as the TV cameras rolled. (Of course, if you were dragged out of a warm burrow (with a door, no less) in the dark, you'd bite somebody, too!) :)
you may have dan and wayne fooled, but i don't believe a word of it... you're just putting everyone on here, like i used (thanks barb) to do... well have fun anyway...
But you have us all fooled, especially after the truth? was printed in the Daily News.
We'll send Phil around to your pad and have him bite you when you drag him out of your R9 cab.
what do you mean that i had everyone fooled?... you mean that people didn't believe that i had a motorman's cab in my apartment?... or that people really didn't think i existed?... i do, don't i?
Well??? Did you see your shadow? Then you might be real.
[people really didn't think i existed?... i do, don't i?]
You think you exist, therefore you do.
I believe you exist. I got a tape in the mail from you.
If you have not seen the movie Groundhogs Day rent it. Bill Murray and Gina Davis are great and the City looks ok too. I did not think I would like the flick before I saw it but it is one of my favorites now.
Sun Prairie Wis. claims also to be the groundhog capital of the world but I will leave that debate for a higher court. Every year my inlaws go to the Groundhogs Ball on Feb. 2.
Have a great time Karl. Please tell us how your weekend goes.
Joe
Considering the progress made in NYC in the last 40 year and the grand showing in Los Angeles [ humor intended on both of these] I think you have the right idea.
I'm back safe and sound! Mon was rainy, but the rest of the visit was in beautiful weather
I got to see Phil and his wife and their two little ones. I think Phil slept through my entire visit. I really thought they only did that in the winter!
heypaul-Do you believe now?
Wayne-I did get a few snapshots of the only remaining railroad building in Punxsutawney! Local people tell me it was a B&O office building.
Joe M-I have the movie "Groundhog Day" on tape, and think it is a great one too. Did you know that except for a few of the highway scenes, the movie was filmed in a small town in Illinois (I think) that is very similar to Punxsy.
Dan L-Some of the local people tell me that Phil has bitten his handler several times, and caused some very embarrassing moments.
bigedirtmanl-I wanted to ask Phil about the Second Ave Subway job, but he never woke up during my visit!
david v-Local people tell me that there is a unique abandoned interlocking tower still standing near DuBois, but I did not get to see it on this trip.
Just curious who's working on the 3rd. I'm fairly certain it's in the mionority. Your Forgotten NY webmaster will be at his post in the World's Largest Store as usual....
Well....I'm due in 12 midnight tonight. So I guess I am working. (Although I get off at 6AM)
I work at the Control/Command Center and the MTA is making me work July 3rd... it's a pain but I'm looking foward to a quieter day.
-Harry
[Just curious who's working on the 3rd. I'm fairly certain it's in the mionority. Your Forgotten NY webmaster will be at his post in the World's Largest Store as usual....]
Not me, fortunately. It works out well because Monday is my wife's only day off from her nursing job on this four-day holiday period. We had considered leaving the kids at Grandma's and making a quick day trip to Philadelphia*, but decided that's just too much.
* = amazingly, despite having lived my entire life within a five or so hour drive of The City of Brotherly Love, and having driven through its outskirts on the New Jersey Turnpike on countless occasions, I have never been in Philadelphia.
Peter:
I'll be in Philly today to ride some transit out of 69th st.
I'll ride for you! Hope you make it down someday , maybe on the
August(planned) Sub-Talk Gala anniv. ?
Chuck Greene
I've been to Philly once, on May 10, 1970. Didn't ride on any transit lines, but I did see some PCCs.
Kevin,
Isn't July 3rd the day the employees find out their assignments for the Thanksgiving Day Parade?
Isn't July 3rd the day the employees find out their assignments for the Thanksgiving Day
Parade? >>>
I will not be a balloon bearing clown. I am a member of Subtalk. I have my dignity. Some of it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
A smart decision, handling those ballons is no picnic. It's is real work! The one time I did it for Tap-O-Mania convinced me! And that was for only 1 block!
Peace,
ANDEE
Assignments for the parade Captains are not finalized until September
Peace,
ANDEE
I am. Somebody's got to be in charge :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am, until 1500 hours although I am going to make every attempt to weasel my way out of work as soon as lunch is done. I have gardening to do and the like.
wayne
Its my Normal day off for July 3th but I will be working July 4TH from 8AM to 4PM
I'm working to. As my bossess say someone has to do it.
I will work the third because I did not take vacation but will work the Fourth to be there for special service for the holliday.
Have a happy, enjoyable, and safe Fourth.
Joe
As a pround member in your US Navy, I'll be doing my part in defending our great nation so all of you can keep this fine site chock full of infoon both the 3rd & 4th...Be Safe!!
As a pround member in your US Navy, I'll be doing my part in defending our great nation so all of you can keep this fine site chock full of info on both the 3rd & 4th...Be Safe!!
July 2 was my wedding anniversary, hence I decided to take Sunday, Monday & Tuesday off.
[July 2 was my wedding anniversary, hence I decided to take Sunday, Monday & Tuesday off.]
Good choice, getting married on my birthday. Happy anniversary!
Thank you. 32 years so I guess it took root.
[Happy anniversary!]
[Thank you. 32 years so I guess it took root.]
Congratulations! We celebrated our 33rd in January.
To get on topic, we started our honeymoon by taking the train from Philly to New York. My bride looked around the coach and said, "This looks like a subway."
I happened to be in the city on July 2, 1968. My aunt was in town at some summer opera production at the Met and we spent the day with her. The day before, my mother and I met her at LGA after taking a prewar E train with a dark first car.
My older daughter's birthday too (she turned 33). Mazel Tov!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you
Thank you.
I'm here today ... just part of the 24 hour 7 days a week service.
Mr t__:^)
MIT's open today.
I actually got a seat on the commuter train! And we were four minutes early, since the dewll time at intermediate stations was way down.
Kevin,
I am working today.....I was due in at 8:30 AM, but - as you can see - that time has passed. Mondays are slow for me anyway, and I'm blessed by living 10 minutes away from the office (I work in the former Gertz store building, on Jamaica Av and Guy Brewer Blvd), and my boss is off on Mondays. I'm hoping the library is open today, and not too crowded: I can kill an hour there at the computer center, and surf the web.....
Tony
My Board of Education administrative office is open today, although most people took off. I was looking forward to a nice quiet day to surf the Net- ooops! I mean, get some work done, but the few people who are here brought their kids in, eliminating any chance of R & R.
I spent this whole weekend yelling at the TV or radio every time it referred to this as a "holiday weekend". Usually the Board is very liberal with its holidays for non-pedagogical employees, that is, non-teachers. This year, however, we get screwed out of the Jewish high holy days which fall out on a weekend and Columbus Day, which we get anyway. To add insult to injury, Veteran's Day is a Saturday, and we don't get that Friday before.
This morning's '7' was pretty empty, but normal weekday morning express service was running despite rumors that today would be a Saturday schedule. Most people on the train at 7:00 AM were in a rather foul mood, no doubt because they had to work today.
I'm staying FAR AWAY from all the OpSail festivies.
>>>I spent this whole weekend yelling at the TV or radio every time it referred to this as a "holiday weekend".<<<
Glad to see that someone else found that BS just as annoying as I did.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's not really work when your commute in is enjoyable, is it? OK, so it still is work and I've gotta do it.
We're open today-regular hours. And, from what I saw on my early morning shift there are lots of other people working, also.
I'm working. Half day.
Anyone up for a field trip this afternoon starting around 2:30? Drop me some email. There's a few things I want to get pictures of for the line by line guides. Plus, there's always those pesky cows around town to track down... is there a subway cow?
-Dave
I have seen one in Penn Sation. It is at the bottom of the escalators at the 34th st entrance around the corner from the 1/9, 2 and 3 entrance.
Peace,
ANDEE
I seen a Metrocard Cow in Grand Central Term. by the Transit Store.
Sweet, I'll have to check it out.
Actually I did happen to find a subway map cow outside 1 New York Plaza (near the Whitehall St. station).
-Dave
Great. Now all we need is for Phil Rizzuto to pose next to it.
Holy cow!!
Rumor has it there are several other subway-themed cows at:
Subway Series cow (Macombs Dam Park)
Red Subway Car cow (Westchester Square)
The Bronx Is Up, The Udder Is Down cow (1251 A.A.)
Cow Express
I thought it might be fun to see how many cows I could track down-- but then I found out that there's over 400!
-Dave
I will have to check out that one around Westchester Sq. I'll also keep my eyes out for more of those cows.
There are two blue cows in Clove Lake Park in Staten Island, two on State St between the Ferry Terminal and Bowling Green Station and one on B'way near 242 St.
There's one at Shea Stadium: MOO-Kie!
-Hank
You know how he got that name, don't you? When Wilson was learning to talk, that was his word for milk.
Sorry, no rim shot.
I thought it might be fun to see how many cows I could track down-- but then I found out that there's over 400!
I think there are actually over 500, but I'm not sure if that includes the ones in West Orange, NJ, and Stamford, CT. I've seen 118 of them. They keep appearing and disappearing (appearing as they're finished, disappearing as vandalized cows are shipped off for repairs or, in at least one case, stolen outright).
Many of them are clustered in touristy areas. There are whole herds of them at South Street Seaport, in Central Park, and around Midtown between Park Ave and 6 Ave. Penn Plaza and the 7th Ave entrance to MSG have some, and there are 6 taxi cab cows outside PABT. In addition to MetroCow there are 4 more (I think) in GCT. "A study of still life" (or something like that) in the dining concourse is pretty nice.
Quite a few of the cows have predictable and repeated themes. NYC taxi cabs, cows celebrating diversity, views of skylines, that sort of thing. A few are rather artistic, representing styles of Matisse, Picasso (there are 2 "Picowsso" cows), Calder, etc. Some are just puzzling, like the "spilt milk" cow at 1 NY Plaza or the chewing gum cow in Central Park.
I took a picture of the MetroCow!
[Many of them are clustered in touristy areas. There are whole herds of them at South Street Seaport, in Central Park, and around Midtown between Park Ave and 6 Ave. Penn Plaza and the 7th Ave entrance to MSG have some, and there are 6 taxi cab cows outside PABT. In addition to MetroCow there are 4 more (I think) in GCT. "A study of still life" (or something like that) in the dining concourse is pretty nice.]
I just saw a "cow in motion," on the upper level of a Grey Lines sightseeing bus.
Just north of Bowling Green, there's a "cash cow" behind that big bronze bull.
Penn Station has a Times Square Cow
Funny coincidence that Chicago was in the midst of their wildly successful "Parade of Cows" this time last year.
Tell me again what year New York was the hub of the nation's meatpacking industry? :-)
Well, I guess imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery...
-- David
Boston, MA
<
It's the same wacky group of people, I think. Check out www.cowparade.org.
-Dave
I think I'll promote
www.forgotten-ny.com
as a cow-free zone...
And the madness is spreading all over the country. According to a feature in the Basltimore Sun today, here's what's going on.
Pigs in Cincinatti
"Moose on the Loose" in Whitefish, MT
"Mermaids on Parade" in Norfolk
"Horsemania" in Lexington, KY
And in Rhode Island, "Rhode Island, The Birthplace of Fun" - 31 Mr. Potato Heads, 6 feet tall, around the state.
Even Baltimore is thinking of joining the madness: one suggestion: a crab!
Stop the World, I wanna get off!!
Even Baltimore is thinking of joining the madness: one suggestion: a crab!
Whattsa matta, Dan, gettin' crabby? :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ain't me. It's the suggestion of the Baltimore artist who created a 600 pig for Cincy.
I can think of better ways to waste taxpayer money.
I left out one word: pound. It's a 600 pound pig, decked out as a porcine lawyer, yet.
One the NYC cows: betcha at least one gets tagged before the week is over.
Yeah, like another study on the 2nd Ave. line.
Got to the lower level at GCT to see "MetroCow", a cow painted like a standard-issue MetroCard.
MetroCow, a service of MOO.
COWS???
When did cows start roaming the streets of New York?
Unfortunately, I have to do my usual activites at camp not only today but tomorrow! Camp is fun though!
I'm working today, July 3rd. However, this isn't a problem, since:
1) the big fireworks show here in Chicago is on the 3rd instead of the Fourth, and
2) my company's offices overlook Grant Park where the fireworks are held, and the bosses are understanding of employees entering someone else's office to watch the fireworks as long as they don't touch anything.
The trains going home after 10:30pm on the Third are something to see. Well over a million people come to see the fireworks, and they all pretty much leave when the show's over. Both CTA and Metra add lots of specials, of course, but they're still packed to the gills. They pretty much close the east-west streets between Grant Park and the main train stations to all but pedestrians so that the crowds can get to the stations faster.
Wish I was--I'm having a very boring weekend!
Hope the ships are good tom'w.
I'm at home today, I went for a nice ride around LI (breaking in new 95" motor. Stock compression - high compression heads/pistons this fall). Not very long though, My arms are sunburnt something major :(
Now I need to get long sleve shirts and remember to bring my dirtbag biker jacket down from Hartford next time I come home.
Oh yeah, interesting thing I saw today. A sign promoting the electrification of the Ronkonkoma branch. 5 Points to whomever understands the humor behind that, 10 to whomever can tell me where it is..
My shift from 11am yesterday ran until 3:30am today, does that count?
I'm working at a summer camp so I just got off. I have tomorrow free, though.
Your friendly transit workers will be on duty July 3rd and 4th and 5th and 6th......! But if you have seniority (like me) you're on vacation!
I did. 2 trips from Mott to Bowling Green and tomorrow off.
I worked today. It sucked, but I got a great view of the naval armada moving up NY harbor from my window at 2 World Trade Center.
This Sunday there was track work being done on the Dyre Avenue line for most of the day.
Throughout the day, in 5-10 minute intervals, the driver of the diesel locomotive would blow the horn. Sometimes the horn would have one, two, three, or four blasts.
A question came to me. Why is the horn blown at such frequent intervals? I passed by the train station and the work train appeared pretty stationary. Do the number of horn blasts have certain meaning?
Thanks.
Same thing happen over here on the 3 line a couple of weeks ago? This was like 9am on a Sat. morning. People are still sleeping..........
3TM
07/03/2000
[Same thing happen over here on the 3 line a couple of weeks ago? This was like 9am on a Sat. morning. People are still sleeping..........]
3TM
I guess they weren't sleeping much longer! Rise and shine TA style !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, Mike.
Since I've become a qualified Motorman/Conductor of trolley cars up at the Branford Electric Railway, I had to learn the meanings of different bell and horn signals as part of the qualifiying test. The ones we use are similar or the same as standard American Railroad signaling. I assume NYCT uses the same signaling system.
1 bell or horn blast = stop at next available station or opportunity to do so. (train would of course already be in motion for this)
2 bells or horn blasts = proceed forward
3 bells or horn blasts = STOP AT ONCE (emergency on trackbed)
4 bells or horn blasts = proceed backwards
Again, I'm not 100% sure that NYCT uses exactly the same audio-signalling, but I would suspect it is similar if not the same.
Doug aka BMTman
There's an article in the Daily News at http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-07-02/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-71979.asp
about the cooling system planned for the hottest and busy stations at 42nd Grand Central and Union Square. It looks like they may only provide minimal cooling. Hasn't the TA tried exhaust fans? The only fans they install blow hot air around.
If I can cool my hot apartment with exhaust fans, why can't the TA cool the subways with them?
Also couldn't the money have gone toward installing platform doors to keep out the heat?
Couldn't installing an exhaust fan(s) blowing out a grate on one side of the subway station, and an intake fan(s) on the other side, bring cooler air from outside into the subway? Or is it just too big of an area to cool?
[about the cooling system planned for the hottest and busy stations at 42nd Grand Central and Union Square. It looks like they may only provide minimal cooling. Hasn't the TA tried exhaust fans? The only fans they install blow hot air around.
If I can cool my hot apartment with exhaust fans, why can't the TA cool the subways with them?
Also couldn't the money have gone toward installing platform doors to keep out the heat?
Couldn't installing an exhaust fan(s) blowing out a grate on one side of the subway station, and an intake fan(s) on the other side, bring cooler air from outside into the subway? Or is it just too big of an area to cool?]
Nah, they could cool it if they wanted. In fact, I suspect they could get by without fans at all if they put barriers and ventillation grates at the right places in the tunnels, because the trains would act as pistons.
using forced air of any kind around tunnels as filled with people as the NY City Subway tunnels is not a good idea. (Look at the London Metro station fire back in the '80's) However, passive ventilation using the draft of trains as Josh suggests is a good way to safely provide some degree of temperature control for subway patrons.
using forced air of any kind around tunnels as filled with people as the NY City Subway tunnels is not a good idea. (Look at the London Metro station fire back in the '80's) However, passive ventilation using the draft of trains as Josh suggests is a good way to safely provide some degree of temperature control for subway patrons.
A draft will spread the flames more quickly. Lack of forced ventilation will cause suffocation. Choose your poison.
The reason why the T/A may be lagging on A/c for stations is simple - it would use a HUGE amount of electricity to do it with traditional (compressor/refridgerant) based methods.
And airconditioning stations useing normal methods would mean plugging up all the holes in stations and platform doors. The former would be difficult, the latter, while desierable, would lead to numerous operational and maintenance difficulties.
What I would try, if I were the TA, at some station as an experiment, would be:
a) ventilation blowers to suck hot air out of the stations - I bet these could be implementaed somwhere for less than $10,000.
b) Useing water mains as a sources for "chilled water". I'm assuming NYC water supplies are fairly cold (50 or so degrees would be enough). Simply use this as a supply of cold water for otherwise normal chilled water evaporaters. This might lead to some actual cooling, though I'm not sure how much.
This is the system that the TA is allegedly trying. The only difference appears that they are using some of the chilled water from the Grand Central Terminal cooling system.
They have placed 43 units on the ceilings directly above the platforms.
They the delay is constant, they should be turned on by August. I would reserve judgement as to whether or not this is a bust until then. I would also be curious as to why.
Also couldn't the money have gone toward installing platform doors to keep out the heat?
Different car types have doors that align differently. Redbird, R-62(a), R-142(a) all have different door alignments. The R-142 cab cars have doors that align differently than the blind motors (trailers)! Platform doors won't work on the B division because 75' and 60' cars have different door alignments.
Phoenix Street Railway Update 07/02/00
Mesa Arizona
City Council Has bugeted $3m To study an extension of the Phoenix Street Railway East From Tempe City Line 4 Miles to Downtown Mesa. The Study Is going to take 2 years.
Tempe Arizona
City Transit & Mayor Agree to extend Phoenix Street Railway 3.5 Miles east to Mesa City Line. This will Extend "Line 1" to 25.5 miles when complete In 5-7 Years.
For More Info Go to These Phoenix Street Railway Web Sites:
www.valleymetro.maricopa.gov/busbook/Transit2000/index.html
Offical City Of Phoenix Web Site
www.valleyconnections.com Valley Connections Newsletter
www.phoenixtrolley.com Phoenix Street Railway Museum
www.valleymetro.maricopa.gov Valley Metro Transit
While watching Good Morning America today, I noticed that the set included what looked like a mosaic subway tile, lettered "TIMES SQ," on the wall next to the large window overlooking Times Square.
Is that a real station tile, an "authentic" reproduction, or an example of creative license?
For all I know, this was creative license, as this is on ground level at the 44th Street-Broadway building where GMA is based.
Well it might be an authentic reproduction of the original tiles on the platform where the shuttle now runs. Which is the same as creative license since it is in a TV studio. Just look in the window next time you're at 44 & Bway.
Being that Flushing-Main street is one of the busier terminals in the subway system, connecting to bus lines throughout Queens, will the Wendy's there ever re-open? I sure hope so. The horrible shooting should not leave a permanent scar on an already blighted downtown area?
Or will Wendy's not re-open the location, even if in another spot?
It's already been closed for a long time, and I usually always ate there, so did alot of other people.
I think that if the shooting happened somewhere else (Long Island) it would've re-opened by now. It was a horrible tragic event but Flushing has to move forward or it will continue rotting away.
If history repeats itself it will probably not re-open. McD's never re-opened San Ysidro in California, in fact they tore it down and re-built, IIRC, in another part of town. I do not expect that Wendys to ever re-open.
Peace,
ANDEE
That could mean downtown Flushing could be without a Wendy's for a long time to come. I remember hearing residents complain about the Main Street subway re-construction disturbing the area but I think something else is going on.
Caldor has closed and has not been replaced. Neither has the corner space (Woolworth?). Also Nine West outlet closed (no replacement) and also the China antique market (I think it's by Dunkin Donuts). There are many other places I'm sure that have also closed. We can now add Wendy's to that list. I know they were building a little Chinese mini-mall on Main street a few blocks south of the trestle but last time I look it still remains 80% vacant.
No more will I actually "shop" in Flushing anymore when I get off the 7 train because there's really nothing there, and most places close up 6 or 7pm. It's just off my train and onto the bus, Flushing aint worth hanging around anymore.
Seven years ago there was a sniper shooting in Commack, LI. A moron shot from the hills south of Jericho Tpke. at random into the North Shore Diner, killing an innocent customer a week or two before his daughter's wedding.
The diner was closed for several days. It reopended as the North Shore Diner. When it was sold, the name was changed to Commack Diner, but the etched glass mirror of a woman and titled Miss North Shore remained. The diner was recently sold and the new name is.........(you guessed it) NORTH SHORE DINER.
Goes to show that people have a short memory.
I know that if my father, brother or mother were one of the victims, out of respect I would not want that establishment to re open.
I think it should re-open but not in the same spot. There are plenty of vacant buildings in Flushing downtown that Wendy's could move into.
If I was the owner (I assume that its a franchise & not company owned) I would have reopened as son as possible. I certainly wouldn't let those punk murderers put me out of business!!! I see no reason to close the place at all.
Not that I would ever own a fast food place anyway. I consider fast food places as types of murderers also, with deep frying and clogged arteries as their murder weapon. The same way I could never own a tobacco store.
I was in Flushing (just going straight from 7 train to my bus) and noticed Wendy's is still boarded up, and the many letters and writings on the board, plus graffitti make it really creepy. Part of the wooden board was torn off and you could see inside. The lights were on, tables there, and a sign blocking the staff entrance. It looked just like it did when I peeked through last month in a smaller hole.
It was busy at the time outside (8pm) and I can't see Wendy's is ignoring re-opening. As somebody said a few days ago, after the diner shootings on LI they were re-open within a week. If Wendy's and the community are uncomfortable re-opening in that spot, there are plenty of other spots downtown they could come to.
It was a horrible shooting but they should not let the killers put a permanent dent in Flushing's economy. Right now that vacant Wendy's with police barracaides and boards with decaying pieces of paper with writing is a major eyesore in such a busy area. Why such eyesores linger in Flushing has many reasons. Is it because Flushing is unappealing to national chains?
I have a feeling if the shooting happened on Long Island Wendy's would have been open again by now, even though Flushing Wendy's is busier than Wendy's on Long Island due to it's proximity to major bus and subway lines for straphangers.
What's even more bizarre is that there are are now TWO McDonalds a half block from each other: the old one on Main next to the stricken Wendy's, and a new one on the north side of Roosevelt halfway between Main and Union, where the new entrance (the one with the seldom-operating escalators) is. One hopeful sign: a STARBUCKS!!
As a life-long resident of Whitestone, College Point and Flushing, it is pretty discouraging to see large abandoned spaces where Caldor and Woolworth used to be. There is, however, no drop-off in the number of people shopping there. Go down any weekend afternoon. You can barely move in vehicle or on foot. With Stern's the only major department store left, the focus seems to be on the 99-cent 'bargain' stores that proliferate on Roosevelt east of Main. Main itself on both sides of Roosevelt is now the domain of Chinese and Korean business.
The white middle-class that was the staple of downtown Flushing shopping for so many decades has pretty much chucked it all for the free parking at the Island's malls. Likewise, many of the people who would come off the subway and stop at Gertz and Alexanders before hopping their bus home to Whitestone or Bayside now use the Queens Surface express buses directly into the city- anything so as now to have to ride the trains with "all THESE people" (as expressed by displaced express bus commuters forced onto the '7' every time there's a DOT wildcat strike).
Now if Sanitation would only enforce the rules against businesses using the sewers as their own private garbage cans. The stench on the streets and in the station are unbearable, and it hasn't gotten seriously hot yet!
The stench in Flushing of garbage and sewers is unbearable.
It stinks more than anywhere in Manhattan (even Chinatown!).
It seems other parts of Queens such as Jackson heights and Elmhurst it also smells.
Smelliest part of Flushing is by the RR trestle, also along Roosevelt avenue west of Main street.
It's looking more like Jamaica with all the 99 cent stores. I like cheap stores too, but at least the ones in Chinatown have a better selection and a much wider range of Chinese goods. Plus alot of stores in Chinatown have air conditioning now, something most small businesses in Flushing don't.
Flushing, while it may be busy is mostly due to transit ridership (major bus xfer point and 7 train) is in a downward spiral. Until community leaders realize what is going on it will continue. Consider Wendy's another casualty in the decline of chain/mainstream business in Flushing. That and along with appearance and smells, Flushing is the toilet of NYC.
The official NYC Transit homepage has schedules that can be downloaded for each subway line. These schedules are in Adobe Acrobat format. When I visited the city on Saturday I saw printed versions of the same schedules posted at several subway stations. Are these printed schedules available to the public, and if so, where can they be obtained?
- Jim (RailBus)
NYS Laws - Public Authorities Law
Title 9 - NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY
§ 1204. General powers of the authority....
16-a. The authority shall establish and publish or cause to be published schedules for all passenger transportation services under its operation. Such schedules shall include the estimated departure and arrival time at each terminal point of each route except that, on lines where the headway time during the period between six A.M. and seven P.M. is less than ten minutes, such headway time alone may be listed for that period. Such schedules shall also show the elapsed running time between the terminal and each station. Schedules shall be made available at each facility on the applicable route at which tokens or tickets are sold and shall be posted at each appropriate station operated by the authority.
You're entitled to one.
Does any NYCT location have the schedules available for every line? Jay Street, perhaps?
- Jim (RailBus)
The Jay Street Information Center does have the Schedule handout for most of the lines or you can ask the Station Agent for the schedules of the lines that stop at that station.
I haven't been to Jay St. in a while, but the last time I was there they ones they had in the brochure stand were somewhat out of date. Not sure if the guy behind the counter has any current ones.
Hi Folks it seems as if MY R36 cars are falling apart :0( Im seeing HUGE holes on the sides the paint is fading and the graffiti isnt coming off what gives? I hopre this dosent continueps 9724s AC was hot air. Regards Tom :0(
07/03/2000
[Hi Folks it seems as if MY R36 cars are falling apart :0( Im seeing HUGE holes on the sides the paint is fading and the graffiti isnt coming off what gives?]
The mainline Redbirds of course suffer the same rust problem. For one, blame the graffitti (alkaline) wash and maybe even the polyurethane (sp?) exterior paint which I heard harbors moisture.
Bill "Newkirk"
And on top of that, many G.O.H.’d W.F. R-36’s today have side doors which look like they were modeled after those of mainline cars, in terms of their window placement. After all, the original W.F. R-36’s (and the W.F. R-33S’s) had side doors whose window placement dimensions were as the R-32’s and R-38’s.
Maybe they used second-hand doors from disacrded R-17's and R-21/22's
WF R-36s, 9560-9769 had their doors replaced, about 7-8 years ago, while they were overhauled cosmetically for yet another time. The doors are new, not anything used on the subway previously.
During that time, WF R-36s ran on the 5 for a brief time, while mainline R-33s went over to the 7.
-Stef
Which reminds me, the few W.F. R-36’s in use on the 6 line, and I think a few mainline R-36’s on the 7 line.
I do recall there was a time where mainline R-36s ran on the 7 for a time, but I believe this to be an infrequent occurrence. Seeing WF R-36s on the 6 is not unusual though.
-Stef
No mainlines are currently assigned to Corona, it'd be a pain in the ass to get them there. I believe 20 WF cars and all R-36 ML cars are assigned to Weschester yd.
Try 9478-9557 to Westchester Yard.
-Stef
They're still maintaining them to some extent. There are always cars at Coney Island Main Shop to get some work done. There were about ten cars there tonight.
Stripping the R-17 of it's anti-graphiti paint at Branford has revealed what is probally a common problem in the Red Bird fleet, i.e. the TA painted over the problem instead of: cleaning out the plugged drain holes, rot at the conner of the windows, rot behind the number plate, rust everywhere water could sit for a while (on top of headlight housing, seams on the roof, etc.).
I assume our friends in Kingston have found the same with thier R-16.
Mr t__:^)
And that's why we're taking so much time with the car. We need to correct the flaws on the car, so they don't become a problem in the long run. I will certainly not let this car detriorate the way the fleet is falling apart here in NY.... The TA needs to get their fleet rolling as quick as possible, so they just spray one coat of paint on top of another, and get them back out on the road. The car's not only my pride and joy, but others enjoy it as well. Perhaps when all is said and done with car scrapping, 6688 may be the only Redbird left.
-Stef
Bite your tung my friend !
That would be a realy sad state of affairs to have only one R-17 & one R-16 to represent the once mighty fleet of Red Birds. But then many other "important/unique" examples have vanished in this city.
Mr t__:^)
I would hope if they could find a way to hide a group of Low Vs for several years from the scrapper back in the 1960s, they could at least find a way to save a six-car train of Redbirds from the group that's supposed to survive the R-142s entry into service.
Yeah. What's disappered over the years? The C-Types, Mutlis, Bluebird, and others. It's sad the TA never retained a Hi-V for their Museum....
I don't mean to get picky, but the R-16 was never a Redbird, although the 16 and 17 are similar in style, with the exception of the fact that the 17 is the smaller of the two. For the 16, try "Greenbird", which is what she is being potrayed as presently.
-Stef
If memory serves me right the only real redbirds are the R26,28,29,33, and R36. I never heard that term applied to any SMEE cars until the rebuild program with the whole bunch painted red and that's when they got that name. Sometime in the 80's? [Maybe it went back to l962 with the delivery of R29's but I don't recall such]. Yes, too bad a High-V wasn't saved for the Transit Museum. Back to the Rl7 etc, even though the R17 were painted a maroon when new I don't believe that term ever applied to them, the similar R21 or 22 [which were Pullman Green when new]either. With the R12,14,15, and 17 getting painted red in the 60's for some reason the R21 and R22 escaped.
This is true. The term Redbird comes from a recent time, used to catregorize a group of subway cars painted red. But you could also call the R-17s from 1955 and the R-29s from 1962 Redbirds also, even if the nickname was never used.
We lost various pieces of equipment over the years. Wouldn't it have been great to have a working train of Multis or some other unique piece?
Why the R-21s and 22s escaped the red pain treatment in the 60s is unclear to me. Whatever the case maybe, they would not escape the MTA paint treatment.
-Stef
In James Clifford Greller’s book New York City Subway Cars, there was a picture of a train of various IRT cars, and in that train there was an R21 #7075 which used green amongst the exterior color paint scheme as had been used on the C train. As for why other R21 and ’22 types escaped the “RedBird” repainting, my guess is that such repaintings took place around the same time these particular sets of cars were on the verge of being retired.
07/08/2000
W.B.
The other R-21/22's escaped the "Redbird" paint scheme was because they were never intended to be graffitti free. The R-21/22's were being replaced by the R-62/62A's anyway. The Redbird paint was applied to the R-26,28,29 & 33's because of the general overhaul which would buy time until their ultimate replacement. This will happen with the R-142/142A's.
R- 21 #7075 was repainted into that R-10 green because this car and an R-17 were "spares" for the grafitti free "green train" that ran on the #2 in the late 80's. That green train was not an overhauled consist even though it the married pairs were air conditioned. The cars were ultimately overhauled and given the Redbird repaint.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right. In addition to that, 7075 and 6677 were a supplement to the 10 car train of R-33s painted green in the mid 80s. Why paint a car in the redbird scheme when it's on the virge of being retired? There is no point. 21s, 22s, and others were all heading for scrap.
The green R-17 sounds intriguing though.
-Stef
I have never seen the MS in person, but have seen pictures of them and they are a fascinating bunch. The closest thing to them that exists today is the 1928 D-Type Triplex, which I will try and ride tomorrow. It is indeed sad that at least one set of MS was not saved for posterity. It is ALSO a shame that at least one CONSIST of R-10 was not saved. I believe they have enough R30 left around the system to make up a train (some cars are not currently operational).
wayne
Yeah, if you do go out there, have a blast. I'll be tending to a retired subway car in CT, while the D-Types are on the road.
Scrap Notes For You Meanwhile: 1701-1705, the R-62As which were reported to have some kind of fire damage recently, are on the road. Spotted them at Pelham Bay Park last weekend.
R-36 Sighting: I think 9500-01 are back from the dead! I spotted what I believed to be the cars moving in a transfer yesterday. Can anyone confirm this at Westchester Yard or 207th St Yards?
-Stef
Thanks, Stef. Tending to #6688 is a worthwhile task. I'll take some pictures if the sun cooperates. I hope we go express from 7th Avenue to Church.
Thanks for the R62A update (they had a little fire under 1701 at 23rd Street not too long ago). The one I'm still wondering about is #1909. Someone said they saw #1910 on the #3 and it was a linked unit. Linked as in 1906-1907-1908-[1909]-1910?
Wayne
No. 1910 is a single unit. Cars 1901-1915, which were formerly of the 6, and were sent over to the 3, remained as single units when they were sent over.
No linked sets reside on the 3, with the exception of borrowed cars from the 6, 1886-1890, and 1896-1900.
1909? Is there any hope for her?
-Stef
I couldn't agree with you more on the R-10s. They should have saved a few more of them, at least enough for a four-car train. That way, there wouldn't be any need to rely on memories alone.
How many still exist? From what I'm reading here, I think I would have loved these cars. Aren't they single units, so one car could be operated alone?
I believe 3184 still exists, that's it. 1 car moves are not allowed anywhere (if they were the money trains wouldn't be in pairs).
3184 and 3189 are left. The R-10 is compatible with all other cars, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to see it running with R-30s, 32s, etc.
-Stef
If you enjoy speed with a higher-than-average noise level, you would have loved the R-10s. When they ran on the A, the CPW express dash was second to none. When a northbound A train bore down on 81st St. at around 50 mph, it was pure rolling thunder - from the station platform. They weren't intolerably loud in their heyday; it was only during their final years that their noise level became really bad.
Yes, they were single unit cars; however, you wouldn't have seen them operating alone except perhaps in the yards.
This is true. The term Redbird comes from a recent time, used to catregorize a group of subway cars painted red. But you could also call the R-17s from 1955 and the R-29s from 1962 Redbirds also, even if the nickname was never used.
We lost various pieces of equipment over the years. Wouldn't it have been great to have a working train of Multis or some other unique piece?
Why the R-21s and 22s escaped the red paint treatment in the 60s is unclear to me. Whatever the case maybe, they would not escape the MTA paint treatment.
-Stef
The R-30 was also painted red before it was retired.
Actually, the rot is only in the locations of the emergency dropdown windows. Although we did find the drainage holes plugged by dirt under the seats, the majority of water seepage entering the cars and causing rust damage is under the lips of the side windows with the emergency handles. Perhaps the last coat that 6398 received by the TA, (silver/blue stripe) was its most protective coating. A Zinc-based primer should be found under that coat and the paint scheme was not a temporary coating by all means since it was applied to all LAHT cars, some being just over ten years of age. We did find the combination white/red tail light assembly water damaged but will not restore the tail light to the dual lamp purpose.
>>last coat that 6398 received (silver/blue stripe)
Aye, we found that coat, Mr. Engine Brake, Sir.
1SF9
Hi Folks, Yes 4 LIRR MP-15s have gone to MNRR for a long term stay. It could be for good!!!!!!! I dont know the # s If I can find out I ll post it. Regards Tom.
Neat. We now know there will be MP-15s running 40 years from now! ;)
Interestingly there were a couple of MP-15 in the Fresh Pond yard a couple of Saturdays' ago when I joined the "Field Trip". They were still in the LIRR colors & seemed to be in the freight car area vs. motive power area. Did any one on the trip get photos of them, I may have ... will pick up my fime tonight.
Mr t__:^)
I rode Rte. 36 today and the operator talked to a supervisor around
50th st. , so I knew something was up. We got into the portal , past 37 th-University stop, then got stopped behind another car at 36-Sansom. Something was said about downed wires up ahead. We crept
forward about 10 car lengths but sat there for 25 minutes. Supervisors decided that was it and we "backed up" to the 36th st. station! The operator told us to exit to the street, and someone would be there to take care of us. Well, no one was there and we all
boarded a Rte. 21 bus to center city via. Chestnut St. What a trek!
Always something happening on SEPTA! The news report on the way home said " Subway surface cars are being diverted to 40th St. because of power problems." If we would have been routed there in the first place,we all could have taken the "el" into center city!
Chuck Greene
It seems to me that everyday the N trains Rushhour
service gets worse.Over the last month my waits at
Pacific St. are getting much longer.It used to be
an average of 8-10 minutes but lately its been
10-15 long minutes during rush hour.Its not that
the line is bottlenecked because 2 R trains usually come. Any ideas on why the N is running slower?
They are waiting for Sea Beach Fred to Show up, and try to give it some class, if that could ever happen to the Slow Beach Local
They are waiting for Sea Beach Fred to show up, and try to give it some class, if that could ever happen to the Slow Beach Local.
Except that class is out for the summer... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then again, the delays may be due to another cause. Heypaul told us that Sea Beach riders need a pass to get on the Coney Island boardwalk and that those wearing N train t-shirts would need to get a blood test, too. Maybe the N should be terminated at 86th rather than going to Coney in order to eliminate these delays. Are you there dear old Fred?
Gotcha 'Q--heard every word you said. I'm getting well known on this site, but sometimes I think I'd be better off if I wasn't. At any rate, the Sea Beach to Coney Island on August 16. Anybody want to join me there?
Who makes T-shirts with the N logo on them? I have an "A" and a "D" train T-shirt but I've never heard of N-train ones. Oh well. Long Live 7REDZ anyhow. Both of my subway T-shirts are made by something called "NYC Subway Line - officially licensed by the MTA" - does anyone know if these guys have a website?
I have a long sleeve "N" Train shirt as well as a Long-Sleeve "7" & "A" shirt with has the lines map on the left arm. I'm also a proud owner of a D, F, J, 1, and R short sleeve shirt.
Below is a link to the NYC Subway Line Webpage:
NYC Subway Line Gear
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
went to the site, but couldn't find any of the plain colored t-shirts with just a line on them. has anyone ever seen tees with the line in a diamond (i.e. rush hour only) instead of a circle?
Perhaps they've installed a few more GTs and WDs along 4th Ave.
Today I ride the Q up to Queensbridge-- Yes, there are a couple of places I hadn't gotten around to ride! Riding back I parked myself at the front window of the slant-40. If you've never seen it, the 63rd St. tunnel is unlike anything else on the subway. The construction ranges from high arch ceiling covering both tracks; single arch; and deep-bore tunnel. Lots of space along the sides of the tracks in certain places, and the turnouts for 2nd Ave. are clearly visible. Roosevelt Island station is very "Parisien" (a side-platform station with no center columns) and is similar to some of the deep tunnel IRT stations on the west side. I wondered why they built 21st St-Queensbridge as a side platform station and not an island station since they knew it was going to be a terminal station for many years.
Anyway, you all probably know this already :)
-Dave
yes I do !! I shot this day & night last year ......question does the Q run on the weekends ??......
anyway if you want the vidieo of this ??.........thank you ...
07/03/2000
[......question does the Q run on the weekends ??...... ]
Nope, The (Q) is a weekday thing only. It's the (B) on the weekends.
Except for the (N) and the (L), these R40 Slants go to sleep for the weekend!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, except for this weekend, the B hasn't run to Queensbridge since the Puerto Rican day parade. Instead, they run some BS to 57th and 7th. BTW: Why is the BS an R-68a? Do they run one B up to Queensbridge for the sole purpose of becoming the shuttle? It'd be much easier if they took one of the slants out of the tunnel and ran it as the shuttle.
I have ridden slant 40's on the shuttle. It happens occasionally I guess. It was cool to see the Call-on at Second ave up close out the window.
Is the night shuttle between Queensbridge and 2 Ave runnig local or
express along 6 Av ?
I believe it is a local, the one time I rode it the local tracks were used.
By running it local, there is now a local train every 10 minutes between 59 and Houston St. between midnight and 5:00 AM, on every N/S line except the Broadway-BMT line. Not bad service at 3AM....
Local. The shuttle cannot access the 2nd Ave. station from the express tracks without a switchover at W4th St.
...it .....figures ......
<<< Except for the (N) and the (L), these R40 Slants go to sleep for the weekend! >>>
On Saturday, there was at least one train of Slant R40's operating on the B. Same thing the last time I rode on the B on a Saturday, so maybe this is a regular occurence.
- Jim (RailBus)
If you look in CI yd on weekends, you'll see several sets of R-40slants signed up as Bs. I have counted last weekend 3 operating sets.
well i guess keeping those slants running is just a good way to B
I’ve been to the 63rd Street extension a couple times. Last I was there, earlier this year, I was struck by the ads and subway maps from 5-7 years ago which haven’t been changed. But I agree, the design of the line is remarkable. I.M.H.O., the travel from 57th Street - 6th (or 7th) Avenue to Lexington Avenue - 63rd Street is reminiscent of the travel from 96th Street and Broadway to 110th and Lenox . . . albeit somewhat brighter. (I could see why you’d compare all this to the west-side deep-tunnel IRT sections.)
Thats fine for me,but the question of the day would be,'' When are we gonna see the connector begin test runs''?
Probably when the light it up. I already can see signals and the tunnel is done, but they still haven't put up tunnel lighting. I believe the transit professional formerly known as mr. R46 posted that a work train has already gone through.
<was going to be a terminal station for many years.>>
Probably for the same reason they did it at Flatbush Ave. on the Nostrand line -- they assumed it would only spend a brief time as a terminal, the same way Dupont Circle on the Red Line down in DC spent only a few years as the end point of that line.
The Queensbridge situation took a little longer to rectify that Dupont Circle, but it's got Flatbush on the 2/5 beat by about half a century...
Could the reason be that the only advantage to having an island platform at a terminus is convenience to the passengers?
O.K. so the IRT had plans to extend the Nostrand beyond Flatbush? If they were going to make it that long why in the world was it only built as a two-track then?
I grew up in San Francisco and the first thing I thought when I rode through the 63rd street tunnel was. "It looks like BART." The construction methods seemed similar.
Well, in some ways, the methods were the same. Both the Transbay tube and the river tunnel portion of the 63rd St. line were built by the sunken tube method.
Hello,
Does anyone have any idea why there's a CTA el car (half of a pair, I think it's number 6719) in the Steamtown collection? It's the only piece of electric equipment on the property. Does it belong maybe to the "Trolley Museum" that is starting up there? (The trolley museum appeared to be closed yesterday, 7/2/00. Thought that was a little odd for a holiday weekend.)
-Dave
That's interesting, because half a married pair is bascially useless without the other half of the pair. On CTA's PCC L cars, one car carried the MG set and the other carried the batteries.
If it's 6719, the other car should be either 6718 or 6720. I can't remember how the pairs went. They should have the other car somewhere, they are usually split for shipping.
The CTA always assigns the numbers xx01 & xx02 to the first married pair of a new series of rail cars. (You're right, Dan; married halves are shipped separately.) So if 6719 is "all by its lonesome" at Steamtown, then 6720 shouldn't be far behind.
I BELIEVE THAT IS THE CAR WHICH IS HEADED FOR THE SMITHSONIAN. THEY ONLY WANTED ONE SO IT'S MATE, 6720, THE LAST PCC TYPE EL CAR EVER BUILT WILL BE SCRAPPED IF IT WAS NOT ALREADY.
-MARK
Actually, 6720 was not the last Chicago PCC type L car built. The single unit cars (1-50) series came later, so no. 50 would be the last.
-- Ed Sachs
Perhaps one of you who knows more about the single unit PCC cars can answer this:
I rode #48 up at the HCRR last summer, and it doesn't have either version of the standard PCC globe lights (the ones that look a little like an eyeball, or the ones with the concentric[sp?] circles found on the all electric cars), but has rectangular covers over the bulb enclosures, like the ones found on GM Old Look buses. Why is this?
-Robert King
Toronto specified them that way. I don't know why; perhaps someone else can shed light on that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was asking about the L car's globes...
The TTC PCCs had standard globes on the lights. I know for a fact that the "eyeball" globes with the single frosted band and clear centre were used on some second hand cars, Cleveland, and Louisville are two examples, and the air PCCs I've seen, both TTC and other systems. The other variation of globe, which was common on the TTC's firsthand all electric PCCs, with the multiple frosted rings, seems to also have been used on other PCCs as well. I believe the Newark cars, and Philadelphia all electrics have these. The PCC L car from Chicago is the odd one out...
The Chicago PCC L cars are an interesting vehicle on the whole as well.
-Robert King
Most of Chicago's PCC L cars actually were equipped with "eyeball-globe" type interior lighting --- either variation. The only exceptions were the last 50 "married" units 6671-6720, delivered in 1958, and the single-unit cars 1-50, which arrived a year later. They featured the rectangular light fixtures instead. (I don't know why.)
All but the first 200 of the CTA's 770 PCC L cars were built using body parts from the system's short-lived fleet of PCC streetcars. The resurrected streetcar parts included seats, windows (with the interior sashes), and lighting. (Yep, "eyeball transplants".)
Yes, Chicago's Green Hornets (570 out of 600, anyway) served as organ donors for the bulk of the 6000-series fleet. Virtually everything was used except the carbodies themselves, which were scrapped.
27 or 28 Green Hornets were scrapped without any components being salvaged. I find it surprising that no one was interested in them for museum collections at the time. 4391, the lone survivor, was acquired by a private group - the Railway Preservation Society, I believe - before winding up at IRM in Union.
One car, 7078, was destroyed by fire in a collision with a gasoline truck. One other car, 7205, sustained damage when it split a switch and wrapped itself around a safety island. It was rebuilt with parts from 7078 and returned to service. There is some debate as to whether or not it served as an organ donor.
Steve, you really do know your Chicago transit history, I can see that. Regarding lack of historical interest, what's equally astonishing to me is that many entire series of older Chicago streetcars (as well as buses and trolley buses) disappeared without a trace.
Incidentally, there were 33 people incinerated aboard 7078 in the wake of its fiery collision with the gasoline truck. Many of the victims were found pressed against the doors in a futile attempt to escape. (I believe that emergency exit cords by each door were mandated for all transit vehicles as a result of this tragedy.) It happened in May, 1950 at 63rd and State Streets on the city's South Side. Apparently the motorman, who had a horrible driving record, ran a red light. There was even some speculation that he may have been intoxicated.
-Dan Terkell
Two bits of information.
There is a large collection of Chicago streetcars and trolley buses...check the roster at IRM (Illinois Railway Museum).
There was no "red light" at the 7078 incident. The streetcar was being diverted into an off-street turnaround a few hundred feet north of the intersection. A flooded viaduct was the cause. I was only a kid at the time, but lived only one half mile away. I can't respond about supervision of the move, who had the right of way, or the driving record of the trucker and the motorman.
I do remember the news accounts mentioned the panic of the passengers who pressed up against the doors, preventing the "blinker" doors from opening. Window openings were covered with bars and in those days, there were no such things as window exits and roof top escape hatches.
David Harrison
Dave,thanks for setting me straight on the 7078 incident. The information I had was strictly anecdotal. I guess the passage of a half century can work wonders on one's memory.
I am aware of the IRM collection. It's very impressive. But it's still true that no examples of several large series of CSL or CTA equipment were ever saved. (e.g., early Brills, "Turtlebacks", "Nearsides", etc.)
-Dan Terkell
The 7078 accident had an effect on systems other than CTA. Capital Transit in DC converted their 1100, 1200 and 1300 class PCCs from blinker to outward folding doors after the Chicago tragady. PCC spects were changed after 1950 to have only folding doors on PCC cars.
The retrofits and changes in specs seemed to make perfect sense. However, the CTA continued to order train cars with blinker doors throughout the 1950s and '60s. All but a few of the last series of such cars (delivered in 1969) are still in service.
Instead of discontinuing the use of blinker doors, the CTA specified emergency cords by each door for all post-tragedy vehicle orders. Although I don't know this for a fact, I'd imagine that most other transit systems did the same.
-Dan Terkell
Actually, no other system that kept blinker doors on their PCC's did anything else. Baltimore, Cincinatti, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Detroit, Los Angeles, St. Louis. Only DC changed theirs, and TTC retrofitted any blinker door car they bought second hand.
Strangly, GM brought back the blinker door on their Fishbowls, only they called them "slide-glide" doors. Still had to be pulled in and pushed out to open without air.
The TTC didn't start retrofitting blinker doors right away - only after it was discovered that they were more drafty in wintertime than the standard folding doors. Besides climate and rendering the fleet more uniform to make maintainance easier, the Chicago accident was very likely encouragement to the TTC to refit folding doors where blinker doors were present as well.
-Robert King
It was my understanding that the ex-Cleveland Pullmans were rushed into service without door refitting or couplers due to a strike at Canadian Westinghouse, which delayed the installation of couplers. There are photos on the Net showing the cars in TTC paint with binker doors and no couplers. I believe the ex-Cleveland/Ex-Louisville cars were also affected, but I've not seen any pictures of them except as MU cars.
True, the blinker doors are almost all gone from Chicago's "L". The 770 PCC are all gone. The 180 Pullman "New Look" 2000 series are gone too, except for the one historical pair that is stored pending the Pullman factory revival now under way. Except for wrecks, the 200 car Budd fleet soldiers on on the Blue Line. These are the last of the blinker doors.
The 2200 series Budds can't run by themselves and must have one 2600 series pair for wheelchair accessibility. The city and the CTA are currently drawing up plans for replacing the Budds, not so much that the Budds are unservicable, but the necessity of pairing up accessible cars to them is a switching headache.
David Harrison
Some additional information regarding the concept being developed at the Simthsonian. The curator is keenly interested in the Madison Wabash station house in the loop and wants to recreate it at the museum. The station house would be salvaged when the station is either modernized or eliminated, in favor of only two stations along the Wabash AV side of the Loop "L". Madison is one of the few Loop stations still in its 1890's form.
The PCC car was desired as this car was the mainstay of the CTA when the expressway median operations developed. Chicago's Congress expressway median route was a pioneer, with two sequels: the Kennedy and the Dan Ryan median routes, The museum exhibit will somehow address the automobile versus rail transit developments of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
David Harrison
07/10/2000
If this car is restored as a museum piece for a display, where will it be displayed at the Smithsonian ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Interestingly enough, I caught a glimpse of a solid 8-car train of 2200s headed away from O'Hare Airport two years ago. It was great to see, especially since I prefer solid trains, but also peculiar since anyone in a wheelchair wouldn't be able to board such a train.
What car is it???
A complete listing of all surviving Chicago streetcars can be found in Chicago Surface Lines, which I believe is now out of print. The list isn't all that great, considering that CSL was at one time the world's biggest street railway system. IRM did manage to acquire most, if not all, specimens from the CTA's private collection. These included Blue Goose 4021 and Old Pullman 460.
Thanks for the compliment. One thing I regret is that I'm too young to remember streetcars in the Windy City. I was all of a year and a half old when car 7213 made the last run on the southern half of the #22 Clark/Wentworth route on June 21, 1958.
It was on May 25, 1950, to be exact, that 7078 hit that gasoline truck. If you know the location, it's right where that railroad overpass cuts diagonally across State St., then 63rd. It's just to the north of the Skyway entrance, only the Skyway didn't exist in 1950. My aunt says she remembers coming home from work that day, and that my grandmother said there had been a tragic streetcar accident in Chicago. I drove past that intersection in 1991, and that tragic accident came to my mind right away.
Interestingly enough, the Green Hornets kept their blinker doors afterwards. Since the CTA was planning to return them to St. Louis Car Co. for recycling anyway, they figured it wasn't worth the trouble to make any changes. I haven't seen any record of emergency cords being added to the Green Hornet fleet.
You're right, Steve. None of the transit fleet that existed at the time of the accident was retrofitted with emergency cords (as far as I know, anyway). Every new rail car and bus delivered to the CTA since the tragedy has been equipped with them. For easy visibility, cords in the buses have always featured red plastic knobs nicknamed "cherries".
Sorry for the confusion, I apparently misunderstood the question!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is true, only one car is held for the Smithsonian. They plan an exhibit depicting a subway/elevated platform and an expressway median platform and had room for only the one car. 6719 was chosen because it has the conductor position. The car will not be operable. Steamtown is only storing the car.
The retangular light fixtures came about because the manufacturer used what was available at that time.
By delivery, cars 1,2,3, and 4 followed 50.( 1960 versus 1959) The 1-4 group came with 100 HP motors and other high speed appliances and could do 75 mph. Cars 6127-6130 were also retrofitted and the CTA could put out an eight car train of high speed equipment. This led the way to specifying high speed performance for all following CTA car orders.
Two years ago I bought 6719 and 6720, together with cars 22, 33, and 35 in a scrap sale with the intention of having historial car operation on the "L". The support of CTA management never occured and the idea was scrapped. 6719 went to the Smithsonian, 22 went to Illinois Railway Museum, and 35 went to East Troy. 33 has no brake actuators and 6720 is an orphan, yes they'll probably be scrapped.
David Harrison
David,
Thanks for filling us in! Don't ever let it be said you can't get the official answer to anything here on SubTalk. :-)
-Dave
with the intention of having historial car operation on the "L". The support of CTA management never occured and the idea was scrapped.
Oh NO! They wouldn't agree to you storing the cars "on the property"? That's a shame. For a while, things seemed so positive.
Well, at least there's some consolation in the fact that some of your cars went to other museums where they will be preserved.
--Mark
There is a museum in Michigan which bought six 4000-series cars in 1974 or thereabouts; however, they didn't have enough funds to restore them all. Luckily, instead of scrappimg them, they sold four cars to other museums, IIRC, and kept two. My aunt sent me a clipping about it; I'll dig it out and post an update.
David, your proposal to the CTA was a valiant effort. However, I'm not surprised that they nixed the idea. It seems to me that the CTA operates its own pair of vintage rail cars for special occasions: 4271-4272, built by the Cincinnati Car Company in the early 1920s.
Interesting news regarding the five cars you bought. Yesterday morning, I posted a response to Robert King which you might enjoy reading. (July 5, 1:54). Incidentally, I misstated the delivery sequence for Cars 1-50. Thanks for the correction.
-Dan Terkell
Isn't it true that 6201-6770 (or ws it 6720?) had the Green Hornets' 55 hp motors transplanted into them? They also had many other parts cannibalized from the Green Hornets.
Actually the cars 6201-6720 were made from recycled PCC parts to a large degree, almost new trolleys therefore worth recycling at the time.
Today I took the 4:35 MBTA Commuter Train to Mansfield, which is on the Northest Corridor mainline, between Boston and Providence. I knew that the 5:00 ACELA Regional passed by Mansfield about 15 minutes after my "local" commuter train stopped there, so I waited around for it.
The ACELA Regional blew by at 80mph (I believe that is the Maximum Allowable Speed here). The Mansfield platform is eight feet from fence to (low height) platform edge, and I stood as far back from the rail as possible, with my back to the oncoming train. The ensuing wind was pretty strong; I was braced for it, so I was able to hold my ground.
My question is this: When the ACELA Express service begins, and the MAS is raised, what will happen to those who are not "prepared" for this? For example, seniors, disabled, children, etc. I suspect there will be many close calls.
Eight feet sounds like a pretty substantial width for a platform, but when you are there with the train going by at high speed, it sure seems like less!
Hey! Transit and Weather Together! sort of...
Metroliner Service trains routinely blow through Princeton Jct station at 125 mph, with no problems for people standing on the platform. The local track, however, is between the platform and the Metroliner Service track.
Also, I've been there when an E60 powered train went by (presumably at 110 mph) on the local track (to be overtaken by a metroliner on the express track). The engineer blows the heck out of the horn in such cases and no one is caught unaware.
If it was an E-60, there's no way it was going faster than 80mph. I believe 80mph is the maximum allowed speed for thoswe units - they're amazingly unstable at high speeds. I believe the first one actually derailed in testing.
FWIW, they have a bad case of the truck hunting problem that the Acela had /have. Anyway, the E-60's will be ditched in a few years anyway. It's amazing they lasted as long as they have, I've not heard one good thing about them.
IIRC, the E60's early truck hunting problem was solved and I believe they routinely do 110 between Trenton and Elizabeth.
I was in the third car behind one before the problem was fixed, and the yaw was transmitted from car to car, making for an uncomfortable ride.
Bob
Anyone here know what design features cause truck hunting?
Microsoft-type.
"It's not a bug, it's an undocumented feature!"
-Hank :)
Very funny, Hank. I should have asked what design characteristics cause hunting. Anyone know?
I believe 80mph is the maximum allowed speed for those units - they're amazingly unstable at high speeds.
That was years ago, the problem has long since been fixed. Depending on the train, they run between 90 and 110 mph now. Their only real problem today is that they are wearing out, and even then they're still more reliable than certain AEM-7 units (a problem which is hopefully being addressed by the AC rebuilding).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will again tell that story about my father's "close" encounter with a GG1 while waiting at the Princeton Jct Station.
After being stranded by a local that desided to terminate at PJ, my dad was waiting on the platform for a train to take him to Trenton (he commuted from south Jersey to Newark every day to work at Prudential Insurance. His pass let him ride behind a GG-1 everyday. Lucky!) Anyway he was waiting at the platform when he saw a light down the tracks. He stepped up trackside to board the train. After a bit it dwaned on him that A) the train was not going to stop and B) it was traveling at speed. He stepped back just in time to have a GG-1 pass 2 feet infront of him at c. 100 mph.
A story my dad told me:
Yesterday, NJ Transit decided to run an additonal train on the Bergen County line to help accomodate people going into NY for OP Sail and for the fireworks later. Since the line usually sees about 1 train every 3 hours on Sunday schedule, everyone at Rutherford thought the train approaching was their train, even though it was 2 minutes early. All the passengers were standing right at the platform edge (the platform was very crowded as well). The train blew track clear just before the RR crossing, and only my dad and a few other people knew that the train was not going to stop. Everyone else got the surprise of their life when the GP-40 followed by 4 comet Is flew by the station at about 60 mph. Now, a few factors made the situation seem more frightening for the people at the edge than a normal close encounter: 1 - Hoboken bound trains usually have the cab car first, not the engine. 2 - It was a low platform station. 3 - As I mentioned before, the line sees about 1 train every 3 hours on Sunday, everyone thought it would stop.
The extra train and the train after were both standing room only, and the regular train had to leave about 15 people behind at Harmon cove, there just wasn't enough room.
A couple months ago someone posted something about a novelty tune from the late 1950s (1959 to be exact) "Ambrose" - two people walking through a subway tunnel, for reasons unknown (they were fleeing a disaster?)..... anyway, someone out at eBay has a copy of this up for sale, price: 10 tokens (14.95). The artist is Linda Laurie, the girl who's walking along with Ambrose.
Click here to check it out if you are interested/curious.
wayne
Not interested in buying as I taped it many years ago; just another fan of 50's music [and rail transit] here who remembers it. It was on the Glory label which was a rhythm and blues label.
Believe it or not I have a copy of that. My dad bestowed upon me his collection of 45's and that is on one of them. I remember it because it always struck me as extremely bizzare mixed in with all the music CD's. If my recrod player still works I'll try and record it for youse guys. Does anyone know a good WAV -> MP3 converter?
Here's the schedule for the SOAC train when it ran on the NYCTA way back in 1974.
May 17-18,Jun 14,16-20 on the D
Jun 21,23-28 on the N
Jun 30-Jul 5 on the A
Jul 8-14 on the E
Jul 15-19 on the D
July 23 left for Boston.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks! I'll add that to the soac pages here...
-Dave
And July 15th 2000, Subtalkers will see then once more!!
Right you are Lou ... still time for you last minute Charlies to join us ... may have to bring your sleeping bag if you can't find room at one of the local inns, but am looking forward to a grand time !
Our day starts in the Seashore bus at 9 AM Sat. with Traffic & Weather reports as we begin this "Field Trip".
Mr t__:^)
...and this is one SubTalker who will be re-united with the SOAC cars, since having had the pleasure of "test-riding" them on the Brighton Line during my Erasmus Hall days. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
July 16,1974 there was a fire at the Metropolitan Avenue Terminal
of the BMT Myrtle Avenue Line,about half the platform was destroyed. R-27's 8202 and 8203 were virtually destroyed and R-27 8237 and R-30 8512 were burned beyond repair.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All 4 cars never saw another day of service. The heat was so intense, the cars sagged in the middle. Pictures of them are elsewhere on this site.
I saw a TA notice saying the #7 would be 10 cars as of Friday 6/30 following the PM rush. I thought I had the date correct. Someone also posted on this site that the #7 will be 10 cars over the summer as of this past weekend. The fact of the matter is I was on the #7 today and they had 11 car trains. Either I had the wrong date, the order was rescinded, or it will happen next weekend after the July 4th holiday is over. Time will tell.
An updated Car Service Notice was posted today-it's July 8 for the 10 car trains.
Perhaps a few singles will show up on the mainline. Several summers ago, the R-127s out of 239th St Yard took a vacation while single units filled in on the Refuse Collector. I wouldn't be surprised to see them.
-Stef
The bulletin I saw at Corona yesterday has July 8 as the target date for ten car trainsets. We will see in four days.
As of today outside my boss' window at 1400 EDT they are still 11 cars with the R33 3rd car from the Flusing end. I'm not working there this weekend but will post Monday when I'm listening to my boss, err I'm in his office.
Effective 7-8, 10 cars will be the norm on the 7 for the summer months.
The new SEPTA station at Churchman's Crossing in Delaware opened on Thursday, one of two new stations on the line. The next, Baldwin, is scheduled for next year.
07/03/2000
Yesterday I rode to Coney Island and after lunch I rode the Wonder Wheel. For $3.00 I rode with the expressed purpose for photographing Stillwell Terminal, the approach to West 8th St with the Cyclone in the foreground as well as a wide angle shot of the beach. I did get off one shot of R-68's (D) leaving Stillwell.
If you want a wild photographic vantage point of Coney Island try this out. Just remember to board under the sign "stationary car", the moving cars will prevent to from doing good shooting.
After leaving Coney, I rode a rerouted (B) up the Sea Beach middle. BTW- Sea Beach Fred, your Sea Beach Line stations, roadbed etc. misses you much and sends you their regards !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh, those moving Wonder Wheel cars! The first (and only) time I ever rode the thing was 14 years ago tonight (7/4/86). I didn't know that some of the cars moved; when I went over the top and that car slipped forward (and after dark, no less) I thought I was going to DIE!
Perhaps if I ever get a trip over in the Summer I will get a ride on it as well as the Cyclone.
Simon
Swindon UK
Bring a strong stomach! The ride on the Cyclone is short but rough...at least it was in August 1984 when I rode it. Going over the top of the first hill, all you see is ocean, and as the ride jerks violently on the curves you'll feel like yelling something that sounds like "ocean"!
My love or roller coasters is almost as great as for railways. I suppose they are the same really. Have you any idea how long ago it was built? I only get to come over in March and November and I think it is always closed then.
Many years ago we used to have a wooden one in Battersea Park in London. A brakeman used to stand in the middle to slow it down at the end of the ride. It got in a poor state of repair and one Sunday whist the cars were being hauled up of the chain they became detached and fell back towards the next group of riders waiting, smashing the rotten stop blocks and crashing at the bottom killing three people. It was a sad end to a great ride.
Simon
Swindon UK
Won't swear to it but seems the year l926 stands out in my mind for construction of the Cyclone. Too bad you weren't around for the Airplane Coaster ride at Rye Beach. They actually had two full size coasters there once. I think the Airplane coaster was demolished about l958. Now THAT was a rough ride, and fast.
Actually, I _think_ it was 1927, because I think 1997 was its 70th anniversary. Somewhere I have a T shirt that has the date on it. What a great ride - someday my back will work right again.
I'm thinking either 1922 or 1927.....somewhere in the twenties, to be sure.
If you wanna know about roller coasters, try http://www.rcdb.com
It's the "Roller Coaster Database" and has useful technical info on almost every coaster in North America, plus links toother coaster sites.
no it was 1926 i'm positive
The Cyclone opened in June of 1927.
Yea Baby, it is really great. I will look at my two days in New York next month by how much I enjoy riding the Cyclone. Of all the rides at all the amusement parks I've been in, the Cyclone is by far my favorite. BUT TO REALLY ENJOY IT YOU HAVE TO RIDE IN THE FRONT CAR.
Don t forget your Nitroglycerin pills for your heart after all you are closer to retirement age then teen age by 50 by45 years
Fred,if you want to ride a clone of the Cyclone, out here in southern California at Magic Mountain there is the "Psyclone". Supposedly it was built to the same plans as the original in Coney Island -- as was the one up at the Santa Cruz boardwalk. (Somehow I seem to remember the loading area at Coney island's Cyclone being different than the Psyclone at MM -- not that the one at MM is up off the ground, but the layout of it. Plus, the Cyclone at Coney Island still has the manually operated -- "Johnson Bar" -- station brakes!)
I haven't tried the one in Santa Cruz, but frequent the one at magic Mountain. Geez, that thing beats the @#!t out of you. It's got to be the ROUGHEST riding wooden coaster I've ever done. For a sure-fire case of whiplash, you sit in the BACK seat.
the rollercoaster at the Santa Cruz boardwalk is nothing like the Cyclone, it was never built to the same plans. The Santa Cruz one is not as tall, as fast, as steep, or as rough as the Cyclone. Not even close. Want a REALLY rough ride? The Highway from Santa Cruz to SF. California 17 is the third most dangerous road in the state, with over two accidents every day on its 25 mountainous miles,
Steve: I know about it. I live in Arcadia and have gone to MM, but there is nothing to match the original Cyclone. There is one at Knott's Berry Farm that I will ride next week, but I don't think it will compare. There is just something about the Coney Island one that just knocks you for a loop.
It's still regarded as one of the ten best roller coasters in the USA
I believe it is wooden. They have a ride all of there own, they feel alive. The more they shake the better just so your eyeballs rattle.
We have one about 100 miles from where we live at a place called Oakwood. It as built about 10 years ago and is claimed to be the best wooden coaster in Europe. The ride lasts all the way to the end - not after the first drop. It was built by an American Comapny.
If you ist the park on a quiet day you can ride continuously. One day I will visit in the Summer, my next trip over will be in November (Subway tour No7).
Simon
Swindon UK
The Astroland Astrotower is good for taking pictures as well, for instance:
-Dave
07/04/2000
Dave,
Almost a dead ringer for the rear cover of the 1993 Subway calendar. The difference is on the Wonder Wheel you're shooting through the grating and on the Astrotower it's through plexiglass. Perhaps possibly all scratched by now. I'll make a trip to check this one out.
Happy Fourth !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How long has the Astrotower been open? I don't remember it...
07/09/2000
[How long has the Astrotower been open? I don't remember it...]
I guess the very early 60's when this country was swept up in the space race. I think Mark W's friend may know for sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
So its been open continuously?
07/10/2000
[So its been open continuously?]
I assume so, ruling out being closed for the winter, I never heard of it being closed. Mark W. would your friend know about this?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, Bill. It has been open every summer since 1967
Whoa...VERY well done there, Dave!
Wayne
Too bad it wasn't a nice sunny day! :)
Here's another:
-Dave
David, how about building a couple of subway/trolley or bus screensavers that we can download for our desktops?
Sounds like a great idea but I'm not a programmer. I don't even use a PC unless I absolutely have to. Someone else who has the time can jump on that idea.
-Dave
Could anyone out there make a few screensavers about the subway/trolleys/ busses from Dave s pictures. Something that we can download. I am sure Dave would not mind, from his answer about the Wonder Wheel
Since I'll be on this Sunday's (7/9) Nostalgia Trip, I'll have to try these vantage points with a video camera. Should be very interesting.
--Mark
07/06/2000
[Since I'll be on this Sunday's (7/9) Nostalgia Trip, I'll have to try these vantage points with a video camera. Should be very interesting.]
--Mark
Just remember to stand under the sign that says "stationary cars", the moving ones will make photography a little difficult!
Bill "Newkirk"
Just remember to stand under the sign that says "stationary cars", the moving ones will make photography a little difficult!
Or fun :)
--Mark
Dave: Isn't that the Cyclone?
It is The Cyclone in the foreground. Dave took the picture from The Wonder Wheel
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you Andee, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Now tell me what the hell the wonder wheel is.
07/08/2000
[Thank you Andee, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Now tell me what the hell the wonder wheel is.]
Fred,
You've got to be kidding! I guess when you were younger when riding the Sea Leach Express to Coney Island, you never got off at Stillwell Terminal!
The Wonder Wheel is much a staple to New York City as is the Statue of Liberty. C'mon, tell us you're pulling our legs!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill: I really don't know. Is it the big ferris wheel? I do remember that. Otherwise I'm not pulling your leg. I just don't remember. Please clue me in.
07/09/2000
[Hey Bill: I really don't know. Is it the big ferris wheel? I do remember that. Otherwise I'm not pulling your leg. I just don't remember. Please clue me in.]
Fred,
Yes Fred! The Wonder Wheel is the big ferris wheel and the only one in Coney Island. Easily seen on (D) & (F) trains leaving West 8th st. enroute to Stillwell, but seen from (B) & (N) trains from railfan window. Next time you're in town give it a whirl! It's only $3.00 a ride, great view of Coney Island from above. Gee, you've must have been out of New York that long to forget the Wonder Wheel!
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't forget the ferris wheel, I just didn't know it as the Won-
der Wheel. You want to know the truth? I hate ferris wheels and I'm scared poopless to ride on, yet I love roller coasters, Go figure. I will take a picture of it when I get to New York next month.
>>> Now tell me what the hell the wonder wheel is. <<<
Fred;
Don't worry, there are lots of trains that will take you there on your next visit to NYC. You can't miss it if you take the "West End," "Culver" or "Brighten Beach" lines to Stillwell Avenue, and then look toward the ocean.
Tom
Old Tom: You mean you can't see it from the Sea Beach? Then that is why I don't know what it is. I always rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island. ALWAYS!!!!. Maybe now I have an excuse for my ignorance on this subject.
Great Shot Dave, I just turned your pix into my wall paper for this week
Happy 4th of July from Chicago.
07/04/2000
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL FROM...........
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Independence Day from South Jersey.
Bob
Happy Independence Day from where it all started, Boston!
-- David
Boston, MA
Just testing my password---Brighton rules!!!
Sea Beach is better!
07/05/2000
Brighton has EXPRESS service !
Bill "Newkirk"
Never mind a debate; this has the makings of a Brighton-Sea Beach pep rally.:-)
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... this is a test of the emergency notification system.... in the event of a derailment of the r-142's, railfan photographers would be given directions to the location of the derailment... this is just a test...
i've been wanting to do this for a long time... and with the departure of subway_crash from the board, i thought it would be a good moment for a few wacky thoughts...
And your kind of wackiness we can handle ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah this is F Train wishing all of you fellow Railfans a Happy forth of july. Although I am off work from McDonalds(Thank God), I will still have time to Railfan because I will be going to the city for the Fireworks. If you see me, just holla F Train or Paul. After all, I will be wearing my black F Train Straphanger design shirt. If Anything occurs during my Trip on the Subway or the Long Island Railroad, I will be posting it on the following days from today. Well I will be going off to Rosedale to catch a Westbound Train from Far Rock to Penn station. Whateva you guys do, have fun!
From the North, the Putnam (electric) Branch line ROW goes straight as an arrow & dead ends at the north end of Van C. Park ~24ft above the soccer/cricket fields. Old fence posts (above the ROW) continue and descend on a curve to left along the hillside.
Q: what type of structure (fill, stone, steel?) got the line (at ~2% grade/1200ft?) down to level of turnoff at Putnam Line? Any pix? No trace of structure appears extant.
I took my daughter bike riding in that area last year to look at it for myself. It appears that there was a steel structure, possibly a bridge. transversing the end of the ROW (Mosholu Avenue). Along the Yonker's line, there are still traces of stone ballast going south towards that curve so I'd figure the ROW was consistant to alongside the stables.
Have any of the potbelly stoves from elevated stations been preserved anyplace? The LIRR has done a good job retaining them in its older stations like stations like St James.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know about the stoves themselves, but their chimney vents are still there - check the stations on the #2/#5 from Jackson to East Tremont (not including Intervale) and on the #1/#9 from 207th to 238th; these are the ones built in the 1905-1907 gingerbread style.
wayne
Someone was advertising what purported to be one a few months back on eBay... don't know if it got any bidders, seems to me its starting price was $1000 or thereabouts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Turn nostalgia on:
I still recall the old pot bellied stove in the station house at Neck Rd. station. It was replaced by an electric heater sometime in the late 1950s.
Haven't seen one like it in ages.
-- Ed Sachs
Do you guys remember. . .
--when the C used to go from Bedford Park Boulevard, Bronx to Rockaway Park, Queens?
--when the N went to Forest Hills and the R went to Astoria?
--when the 2 went to New Lots and the 3 went to Flatbush?
--when the E went express along Queens Blvd. 24 hours a day?
--when there were four services going along 8th Avenue (the A,C,E, and K)?
--when the M and the Q travelled over the Brighton Local to Coney Island?
--when conductors had to stand between between cars on the R10s to open and close train doors?
--when you had to pay to exit a train station instead of paying to enter?
--the JFK Express (the Train to the Plane)?
--when the B ran local with the F along 6th Avenue?
What a trip down memory lane that is!
I remember everything but that deal with paying upon exiting the system. When did that happen?
I remember paying to get off on the Rockaway Line. It was the method used to collect a double fare on stations past Broad Channel. I don't recall the exact year the double fare was discontinued -- sometime in the 1970's I believe.
The double fare in the Rockaways ended in 1975, when the fare went to 50 cents from 35 cents.
David
If you rode out to the Roackaways, youpaid once when you got on, and again when you got off. It was a "Doubl Fare Zone" until the late 1960's or maybe even into the 1970's.
When you boarded in the Rockaways, you paid your fare with TWO tokens and just got off the subway in th rest of the world as you normally did.
I don't know the specifics, but I seem to remember that if you rode WITHIN the Rockaways, you asked the token booth clerk for some sort of ticket, so you didn't have to pay twice to get on and again to get off. I think when you presented the ticket at your exiting station, the agent there let you out without payment of another token.
--when the N went to Forest Hills and the R went to Astoria?
I remember when the T went to Astoria !!
I remember when the T wan't the T but the No. 3 line (or just plain West End Express when they were running standards).
I remember riding on the R-27s the first day they were in service on the "QT" (Brighton Local). The train didn't even have a full complement of advertising cards -- lots of blank spaces.
I also remember when the Culver line ran from Coney Island to Chambers St. via the BMT, the Myrtle Ave. El line to Bridge-Jay (gate cars and Q-types), and the Fulton St. El from Eastern Parkway to Lefferts in C-types.
-- Ed Sachs
That makes for a good trivia question regarding the first assignment for the R-27s. I wonder if anyone was complaining about the seating, the markings, etc., etc.:-)
I do believe that many Brighton riders howled about the fewer nunmbers of seats and shorter trains (480' as compared to 536' for the old Standards) when the R27's first showed up in 1960-ish.
... when the R27's first showed up in 1960-ish
It was the fall of 1960 - October or November as I recall.
-- Ed Sachs
Gawd, I must be a really old fart. I remember it all!!
I remember it all. RE: CC line - I also remember it being rush hours only between Bedford Park Blvd and World Trade Center, of course the signs said Hudson Terminal.
Wayne
I remember taking the K (R-40 slant w/no A/C) to the Planetarium with my dad several times, and later an R-10 C. I once saw (but never rode) the JFK Express, and remember waiting for the N to go to 63rd drive.
You really know how to make a guy feel old. I used to watch the conductors work the doors on the R-1/9s as well as the R-10s.
Of course, there were also the A, AA, CC, and E along 8th Ave., but they never ran all at the same time.
One of my favorite memories, and this should come as no surprise to most of you, would have to be the R-10s strutting their stuff along the CPW express dash. Pure excitement, rolling thunder and everything.
Steve:
I, too, remember those things fondly.
But while talking to my friend, (who is somewhat of a train buff) he said that at one time the E ran along the express with the A along 8th Avenue, and that the E also went into Brooklyn. I have no recollection of this. Is it true?
During the rush, the E did indeed run via the 8th Ave. express tracks and the Fulton St. express tracks. Most trains terminated at Euclid or Rock Park, with a few terminating at Lefferts or Far Rock. The rush hour CC took over the E's tracks at Hudson Terminal Station, now of course, World Trade Center (bumper block tracks).
Fulton St. express service flipflopped over the years between the A and E when it was a rush hour-only operation. During the late 50s, it was the A which ran express. Then in the early 60s, the E took over and held that assignment until 1973. I rode on an E which ran express along Fulton St. once, in July of 1969. Nothing spectacular, just a nice express run.
One thing I regret was never riding on the R-10s on a Fulton St. express run. Oh well, I rode on them plenty of times on the A along CPW.
Yes, you are correct. The problem during changeover time was this: with no PA systems, if you were on an A leaving Hoyt St, you didn't know if that A was going to be local or express.
For those here who are too young to remember, formerly the C & R were known as the CC & RR. Remember when the R16's on the RR had glued paper 95 St. destination signs on the outside sign box?....The K was earlier known as the AA. I worked the AA many times as a conductor & motorman. Actually, 4 services did not run at the same time on Eighth Ave. When the C (or CC) ran, the K (or AA) trainsets became B (or BB to 34/6) trainsets....On the Brighton, before the pre-Chrystie St. rush hour Q, the QB ran on the local to Stillwell along with the M.......The JFK express was not a premium fare during the 1985 (approx.year) closure of the Willy B. At that time they ran 8 car R46's....Finally, the B along Sixth Ave. was confusing. In general, 57/6 service ran local, while 168 St. service ran express.
I remember when those R16's showed up on the RR with the white destinaton sign stickers (black letters). This happened during late 1967 or early 1968 on the GG as well, as I used to ride the E/F in Queens to get to LIRR in Jamaica.
I also remember when some R26/28's showed up on the Flushing IRT and the sae srt of sticker destination signs were applied to them. I think there were two trainsets, maybe three. That happened around 1965 or 1966 for some strange reason.
Oh, I do (except for the paying upon exiting part) . . . but I also remember . . .
- when the 34th Street station of the 6th Avenue line had the traditional IND design motif, unlike today;
- when three BMT stations -- Fulton St. and Broad St. (Nassau Street line) and 8th Avenue terminus (14th Street line) also had IND station designs;
- when Brooklyn-Queens crosstown stations, and many stations along the Fulton Street route, and also some of the Prospect Park line stations, were rather dimly lit with incandescent bulbs;
- the old plastic Transign roller signs on R-32 and R-38 units;
- the many colors for different lines (magenta / PMS 239 for AA, F, #4; turquoise blue / PMS 306 for #3, E, M; red / PMS 185 for #2, QB; et al.);
- when there were refreshment stands on concourses of key stations like Herald Square or Union Square;
- when all divisions of the subway system had “L.A.H.T.” cars, not just the IRT as is the case today (what are more commonly known these days as “RedBirds”);
- actually riding on the R1 - 9 class cars within their last 2 years of service, on the CC line;
- when stations still had the old-style metal signs (black lettering, white background) throughout the system, before the new style took over.
Hi, gang,
Flew in from Miami Beach, BOAC...well, from Budapest via Prague, CSA...yesterday. The ERA trip to Budapest and environs (with two side trips into Slovakia) was great! We must have toured every carbarn in Hungary.
Some observations about Budapest's metro, which consists of three lines (line #1 is called the Millennium Line and was the inspiration for the Contract One IRT style, the other two were Russian-influenced during the time that the Soviets were overseeing things):
1. Budapest's escalators operate about twice as quickly as New York's. People don't seem to have problems boarding or alighting, but the system still has queuing problems at the landings, probably due to sudden influxes of passengers getting on/off trains. I didn't see any elevators (no Hungarians with Disabilities Act?).
2. The trains are crowded much of the time, and service is frequent. Digital clocks along the platforms tell passengers how long ago the last train left, but not how long until the next train should arrive.
3. Fare collection in the metro (as well as the buses, trolleybuses, and trams) is proof-of-payment. Inspectors rove the system checking passes and tickets, but they seem to concentrate their efforts on certain days.
4. The Lines #2 and #3 cars are about 30 years old at their oldest, but look much older. It's basically a Soviet design, similar to Moscow's system. The oldest cars have incandescent lighting. Russia recently sent 10 nearly new cars over as partial payment of national debt. A GOH program has just started (didn't see any of the cars in service, but saw a trainset in a shop); the light bulbs have been replaced by screw-in fluorescents. The equipment, not being made of stainless steel, has a rust problem, and many cars are in need of a paint job.
5. Line #1 is SMALL! It's basically a trolley subway, with tiny (but modern) cars and low platforms.
6. On all three lines, the trains accelerate quickly and hold their speed.
It was a most enjoyable trip, but it's good to be home.
David
David, do they still have any street running with conduit?
The manhattan streetcar conduit system was patterned after
the Budapest design.
Some people mentioned the conduit operation in Budapest during the trip, but I saw no sign of it. Everything I saw was running with pantographs.
David
At Seashore, we have Budapest low-floor rapid transit car #18 (built in 1896). I believe it has conduit collection, but we can verify that on the SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore coming up on July 15. For more information, see the current events page!
A number of years ago we (BSM) had a visitor from the Budapest transit system. When she (yes, it was a lady) was asked "Oh, don't you have conduit operation like Washington used to?" Her reply was "We took that out in the 1920's!"
I suspect that was a truthful answer.
They are planning on renovating 23rd and Broadway and 8th and Broadway. They will go back to traditional tile!
I believe they have adequate samples from which to do the new work.
Let's hope they recreate what was originally there. At 23rd, the icons are still visible just outside of fare control. At 8th, there is only ONE icon left; at the south end of the southbound platform by the stairs. I will be very pleased to see the refrigerator tile go bye bye.
Wayne
Glad to see the offensive 70's tile on the BMT Broadway line go away. They did a great job at 5th Ave, so I hope they replicate that.
And they did the same at Cortlandt Street. That one went up in 1996, and they were still trying out ideas; so it's kind of simple. As they went along, they began getting more and more detailed - what you see at 5th Avenue is a full-detail recreation. The pattern at 23rd and 8th streets is the same - a two-color frieze with multi-colored background; every so often there's a vertical bar with a diamond at the top and rectangular icons - so it shouldn't be too hard to recreate. Let's hope they use the correct materials - like they did at Park Place IRT and Lorimer Street BMT (I have a sample of that one - nice workmanship).
wayne
I suspect the original tile is behind the walls like at Cortlandt Street. If they can't restore it they can probably use it as a guide.
I believe you are 100% correct Dave. As a matter of fact there is still a section (about 15 feet or so) of the old tile still uncovered. It is at the north end of the uptown platform (just beyond what appears to be the "ending wall" (or is that the 28th st Station? I always get the 2 mixed up).
That is 28th Street with the faux end, and YES, the original tile is behind the 1960s stuff - there is evidence of this at some of the 4th Avenue Brooklyn stations as well.
Let us hope the restorers do a worthwhile job. Did anyone hear of a starting date for this (this way I can go down there and rubberneck! :o>)
wayne
Of course the old tile is behind those awful block tiles; I remember watching the workers cover them up the last time the stations were renovated (and I just about cried, but there was hope, since the tiles weren't destroyed). Why can't they just knock down the new wall and restore the original tiles? (And why didn't they do it at Cortlandt and Canal Sts.?)
They did do it at Cortlandt Street but not Canal. The fine retoration work at Cortlandt Street and Fifth Avenue on the BMT and 33rd Street (most recently) on the IRT makes me wonder why they cannot do it on every renovation. I assume it is just a matter of money. So, why doesn't Canal on the East Side IRT warrant replicas of the original glass tiles when 33rd Street does?
What bothers me more is why they cannot match the colors when doing work on IND stations? It can't cost that much to come a little closer than they have. They even have a different shade of white tiles in a repaired section of the renovated Bergen Street IND station! They waste so much money covering up perfectly good tiles in every station renovation but they cannot match colors in a repair. Yes, 14th & 8th really needs it, but Broadway-Lafayette did not.
And (my final rant), why do they paste tiles over tiles? I know that it is probably cheaper, but I cannot imagine that it is a good tiling technique. The folks on This Old House would never approve. ;)
Hear! Hear! There are SO MANY IND stations that have tile bands patched in colors other than the original. 65th Street station in Queens, whose original color is Mauve, has patches in lilac, violet and even purple. Spring Street - three blues. Kingston-Throop in Brooklyn - orange, light yellow, medium yellow. Elmhurst Avenue - three different blues. They must use whatever they have left in the storehouse, rather than try and match it.
I too was VERY upset to see the Broadway-Lafayette station's delicate Powder blue/Cerulean blue tile band (the only one in the system) replaced by a generic Midnight Blue/black one. However, at Metropolitan-Grand on the "G", a very careful match to the original Berol #920 Light Green was made, using German-made Agrob Buchtal tile.
A nice job, with some new tablets as well. At 14th Street and 8th Avenue, the contrasting Butterscotch/Terra Cotta is very pleasing to the eye, but why did they do the name captions in black-on-white tile, which is NOT traditional IND. It looks so out of place. And at Chambers Street, two shades of purple exist - one Blue-Violet hand set
with NO CAPTIONS, and the other Red-Violet (Concord Grape) panel tile, with TOO MANY CAPTIONS! The left hand doesn't seem to know what the right one is doing.
One way to put new tile over old tile is to put a new lath over the old tile, then cement the new tile to the lath (using Portland Cement) then grout it. They did this at 5th Avenue-53rd Street. Attaching panels to aluminum laths is also a good way (like at 207th Street).
Canal Street IRT (#6) line got repros of the late 1920s/early 1930s green and yellow IND style tile. Apparently they thought it looked better than the original 1904 stuff, although they DID clean the "C" shield cartouches and put up a new yellow Tulip Border. I think they also left one of the Heins-LaFarge faience tablets up as well (on the downtown side). The hand-made tile at 33rd Street is a sight to behold; utterly beautiful.
I have seen something going on out on the Canarsie Line with respect to adherence to the old ways (Mr.Vickers would be appropriately proud)- a recent rehab at Lorimer Street finds perfectly-recreated sections of frieze (with the correct colors, too) AND some brand-new tablets (the "O"s are a little lopsided on two of 'em) as well. In addition to this, they are building new electrical supply rooms at the ends of some stations (Montrose, Halsey, De Kalb) - which involves making new walls. These are covered in white tile - however - the sections where the friezes would go are not up yet, which leads me to believe that new sections (matching) of frieze are being readied. At Halsey Street, this is particularly welcome- one of the most egregious short-cuts ever taken was perpetuated at the s/b Covert Street exit area - the original dark/light blue, dark green/sea green and ochre tile band was replaced by an IND style band, all midnight blue, without border, four tiles high. No reason for this except for expediency. Fortunately, in today's "the old is new" environment, this section of tile looks like it's bound for the trash heap.
Let's see if they can get the waterproofing job done at Wilson Avenue and put up some 1928-style repro panels on the trackside wall. A Baskin-Robbins job - 28 colors. I'd be willing to assist them with the color matching; I have DOZENS of photographs of the platform-side tiles.
wayne
hey wayne post some photos here right now (just use html to put them in here (img src= kinda thing)
I don't have each and every one scanned yet, but here is a sample of the multi-colored tile at 65th Street, Queens:
The color in the center is the natural Mauve color.
As I scan them, they will be put up in the Line-by-Line section. I try and avoid putting up images on SubTalk cause it slows down loading of the page(s). Most of the stuff I've scanned can be found out on Line-by-Line.
wayne
that's pretty cool. the line-by-line section of this site?
Yes.... take the tour...Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pictures! Every line covered, with detailed captions and side pages.
Click on this link to go to the IND.
Click on this link to go to the IRT.
Click on this link to go to the BMT.
wayne
The southbound platform at 28th St. also has its original tiles at the northern end. I always wondered about that - was 28th St. built too long to begin with, or was it shifted southward?
About time they got rid of those Mondrianesque 1968 era tiles on the BMT Broadway....
But when are they going to fix up the gawdawful Prince Street station. It did manage to keep some of its original tiles in the fare control area, but that yellow color makes the standard MTA blue-and-white look beautiful by comparison.
That Jasmine Yellow color is a fairly poor choice for such a large area. They have it at 53rd Street and 9th Street stations in Brooklyn as well. Hopefully, we will see the original "P" icons at Prince Street some day.
wayne
cool!!! tear down the charactgerless stuff and reveal and restore the gorgeous!
Does anyone know where I could read up on the New York and North Shore Railway?
I would assume there's info about it on Bob Anderson's website LIRR History.com
Are you referring to the Flushing-Port Washington trolley? If so, Vincent Seyfried wrote a book on it in the (?) 1970s. Try Arnold Joseph at 212-532-0019 or Kevin Farrell at www.trainbooks.com, or Bradley Clarke at 122 W Newton St, Boston, MA 02118. All honest, respected used book dealers. GOOD LUCK, I have the book, its well worth any price.
I wonder if they let anybody view East River fireworks from any elevated stations like those along the N Astoria line, and the 7 line (particularly Queensboro plaza and Court Square, also must be quite a view from Smith-9th street.
Must be something to see from the front window of a westbound number 7. I guess the trains operate normally, or do they stop to view fireworks?
We watched from the Brooklyn Army Terminal pier on 58 street
(I had to show everyone the NYCHRR yard and tracks on the way) and had a great view of all five displays. It was great!
Dave
Funny you mention that...
I just returned from Boston's fireworks. After giving up on finding a decent perch amid the crowds on the Esplanade, I headed over to the Longfellow Bridge and staked out a good spot with an excellent view right next to the Red Line tracks (the bridge was closed to vehicular traffic due to the fireworks). I've mentioned here before how much I love the sounds of the AC motors on the Bombarier 01800's on that line, and I was able to sit there for about three full hours with those motors passing about four feet away from my head. Music to my ears!
During the fireworks display itself, the trains slowed down to a crawl across the bridge, and a few even stopped for a few seconds at mid-span. A couple trains were even honking their horns and flashing their headlights as they went across the bridge. Very cool!
On the way home, the Green Line was sheer hell as we crawled our way through the Boylston Street tunnel... It took literally 45 minutes to get from Park Street to Kenmore. That line is bad enough during a normal rush hour; Independence Day crowds make it laughable.
-- David
Boston, MA
I was about to post a message about my fireworks viewing experience and see that if I said that I rode from South Station to Kendall to view them, and that there were people watching from the Longfellow Bridge as the train passed, that someone would tell me that nobody in New York calls trains by their color (OK, maybe South Station, Kendall and Longfellow Bridge give it away). Maybe I saw you as one of the people on the bridge as my train passed.
On the way back, because the crowds at Kendall were too extreme, I walked to Central and got to ride free.
There's a reason I watched from Cambridge:
GIVEN REASON
All of the tourists would crowd around on the Boston side and only locals would bother going to Cambridge.
ACTUAL REASON
How can I pass up an oppurtunity to ride the train across the bridge?
I imagine that the #7 trains may have slowed as they passed, but I'd bet management would've been waiting to discipline any T/O that stopped with clear signals in front of him/her.
We used to look at the fireworks from Roosevelt Island or on the Queens (once we bought cars). I now live in the Washington, DC area and since I was near Baltimore around 8:30 PM we decided to go to Baltimore's Inner Harbor instead of trying to race back to Washington. We (and loads of other cars) pulled over on the shoulder of the ramps to/from I-95. Other than people in the Hotels at the Inner Harbor we probably had the best view. The police passed in both directions but did not make anyone move.
Wayne
#7 trains were slow last night, but not because they were watching fireworks. The TA was caught with their pants down running a Saturday schedule, and the 7 line supt was too cheap to hire crews normally hired during ballgames for extra train service. THEY TURNED ALL TRAINS SOUTH OF WOODSIDE to pick up the headways through LI City and Grand Central, leaving the folks east of Woodside without service for almost 45 minutes. A real blunder indeed for the crowds at Woodside, 74 Street and Main Street, which resembled a BIE at rush hour.
Once again Queens (the 7 line in particular) gets stuck with poor service. Taking the Queens Blvd line trains to Queens Plaza or 23-Ely would've been a better bet, but there's no El.
Off peak 7 aint so great. I waitied about 8 minutes for a 7 train to Flushing at 74th street yesterday at 7:45pm, while the Queens Blvd line had many more trains running at the same time. And no express passed us until before 103rd.
In general the crowding on the 7 is the worst, add to that the poor A/C on the Redbirds, and rough ride I'd much rather take the E or F and get my bus connection there. But I live on the north shore, so I gotta take the N21 from that lovely garbage can I call Flushing.
Saw a few men spit on the El tracks at 74th too, somebody could've gotten a wet suprise down below. Seems to be a lot of spitters on the 7 and in Flushing, worse than anywhere I've been in the city.
Best bet for the fireworks would probably be 23rd and Ely and walk a few blocks for a better view.
I think I'm gonna take a vacation from the 7 train for a while.
8 Minutes at 745PM is Nothing, how about 20 minutes at 245PM Weekday for a A, now that stinks
Yikes! Even though I like the A train the long waits are just too frustrating.
Aaaaaah, so it was just as we knew all along. By now Brighton Express Bob has been pushed from the platforms of the 14th/Canarsie (L) and a could is forming over Sheepshead Bay as we speak. And in replying to this message I will soon be magically transported to the abandoned Canal St. Station, formerly used by the N. See you all there!
I CAN FEEL MYSELF BEING SUCKED INTO THE COMPUTER NOW WHAT BAOUT YOU HEYPAUL?
Well, I just got back from one hot and crowded day in the Big Apple.
I was surprised how empty the city seemed. Midtown didn't seem it's usual boisterous self(not even TSQ) until late afternoon. The subway was practically abandoned in Queens and the Bronx.
I finally got to ride the West End Line. I still like the Culver better. The view from the window was dominated by the garish Verrazano Bridge which looks like a big, blue beefeater's hat.
I managed to get in the Astoria Line which was E-M-P-T-Y. I counted a total of 12 people boarding the train between QBP and Ditmars.
After wandering around GCT and getting some neat shots of Metro-North, I did the Pelham Line which was quite enjoyable, especially since it was also lighty used today. Was everybody downtown today for OpSail? Downtown got pretty crowded south of Wall Street.
I wanted to ride the HBLR but for the second time, time constraints got in the way so I'll save that for my next trip sometime before the end of the month.
A friend of mine in NYCT (signals) came to the rescue on Saturday when the new signalling system malfunctioned at Queensborough Plaza.
Apparently, the new soft-touch controls failed and all signals went to red on the G Line (not sure if it was Queens-bound, Brooklyn-bound or both). These new controls replaced the old push-button system that worked fine for years.
My friend ended up switching the system to manual ops so trains could be moved through Queensborough Plaza (there are no "key bys" at QB Plaza).
Doug aka BMTman
The SI ferrys during midday were rerouted toward the east side of Governor's island, and, if that wasn't enough, we paralleled the bridge (and were unusually close) and went up the east coast of SI! I was surprised to see Stapleton SIR station (with a 5 car train pulling out) from the ferry at 2 in the afternoon! This reroute lasted until 3:30. Running time: 50 minutes. Boats in service: N, AL, JFK, HHL. Frequency of service: 30 minutes. The layover at NY was 27 minutes for each boat, since as one arrived another was leaving. The trip from SI was only 40 minutes, and did not go as close to the bridge. Great view of the Brooklyn waterfront, and saw the old Verrazano ferry boat docked somewhere along the route, looked pretty seaworthy from afar (wasn't sinking). Saw the governor's island coast guard car ferry, docked in the back. Was surprised to see The Port Authority of NY and NJ on a building in Brooklyn. Many barges were lined up, with signs 'Keep Clear, Fierworks'. When the first ferry went the normal route, it had to honk frequently to get the smaller private boats out of the way.
But how was the view of the 'tall ships' from the ferry? I was thinking of taking the ferry myself. A late work night and subsequent sleep till 9:00 paralyzed that plan.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The view was good, though short. Most of the time we stayed out of the way, the best view was from the ferry while it was in the terminal. I think around 11:AM ferry service was suspended entirely, don't know when the suspension started or ended.
The water between Governors Island and Long Island(a.k.a. Brooklyn) is called Buttermilk Channel. During the Statue of Liberty when the USS America? was the flag ship (not sure of the name, largest non Nuc aircraft carrier at the time) for Op Sail was dropping anchor they rerouted that way too.
They also used the Buttermilke Channel reroute for the original OpSail, to mark the country's 200th anniversary in 1976. BTW, the channel itself was originally shallow enough to allow people on Governor's Island walk across to Brooklyn, before being dredged out in the 19th Century.
Brooklyn residents will rejoice this weekend, the N trains will be running over the Manny B every weekend in July. The rejoicing will stop somewhere after Grand st, when they realize they're going up the 6th ave line. The train will terminate at 57th/6th, so Queensbridge riders get ready for the BS. The Queens portion will run from Astoria to Canal (where riders can connect to the 4? That's what the sign says). The R runs from 71st(Qns) to 34th(Man), and 59th(Bklyn) and 95th(Bklyn). Why they didn't just run the R Through via 6th ave anyway, and have one straight line. This current arrangement means that 3 lines will be turning on B'way (BS (57th/7th), R (34th), N (Canal)).
Even though I knew it was impossible, I thought 'normal service' for about 3 seconds when I saw (paraphrasing) 'no service between Canal and Dekalb, N runs via Manhattan Bridge'.
That should be interesting, if for no other reason than when N trains consist of R-32 G.O.H. or R-40 Slant G.O.H. units, in terms of the front-window view. Not unlike when R trains have run via the 6th Avenue line to 95th Street, Brooklyn.
Don't forget the R will only run to 59th Street in Brooklyn. E/F local stops in Queens as well. Take the 4 for all CLOSED N/R stations in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Normal Screw the Pax on Weekends G.O.
In other words: EVERYBODY on the BMT should get ready for the B.S.!!
The plan definitely have room for clarification. I agree that it'll be more simpler to just have the (R) run via 6th Ave, the (BS) to Queensbridge, and (N) from Astoria to Canal. Heck, the (N) had been running express in Manhattan occasionally now, so why not make railfans more happy by running it over the Manhattan Bridge?
These reroutes will be a nightmare for tourists and novice subway riders. The last time when I was in a Jamaica bound (F) leaving from the 34th/BWay downtown express platform, an old lady asked me where it was going. I said "uptown" and she got pissed and got off at the next stop. It's going to be a crazy wacky weekend for some people.
Express or local up 6th Ave?
--Mark
I assume express, too much switching to bother with local. The sign also described it at 'Running on the B' so that's another indication of express service.
Well at least it's a start. The Sea Beach over the Manhattan Bridge. That sounds wonderful. That might mean it could be permanent someday and the N could become an Express again. But what the hell is the IRT 4 doing in this equation? They can't be running on BMT tracks, could they? Since when have they been running on Can al Street. The last time I knew of that was when my Sea Beach carried the #4 and was a real express. How long is this going to be done?
People will have to transfer from the Canal St. BMT station to the Lex IRT and ride the #4 to Atlantic and meet the N at Pacific. Too bad the 4 is an express and skips that station... I guess the people who wrote up that notice didn't look at their Map.
ALL No.4,5,6 trains will be making all stops from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge during the Weekends of this G.O on the N,R Lines. This looks like a dragged out afternoon on the Lex Line. So if you want to get to Brooklyn Fast use the No.2 or No.3 Express Lines from Times Square to Atlantic Ave.
Was there once a suburban trolley line terminating at 69 Street with the Media and Sharon Hill lines that ran in the middle of the West Chester Pike? If so, what stops did it have and when was it destroyed?
Has a line branching off the R3 to Kennett Square or Oxford ever been considered by railfans (besides me) or the unenlightened?
What was the story of the R5 extension from Downingtown to Coatesville and Parkesburg?
Good eye!!!! It ran down West Chester Pike (continuation of Market St.) to West Chester until around 1966 or 1967. I remember seeing the tracks then, but not the actual trains, so I believe it was stopped around then, but it could have been earlier. I do not know what stops there were and never saw a timetable for it, because I only moved there in 1967.
The rest, I don't know..
The West Chester line was abandoned west of Westgate Hills in 1954. The remainder was abandoned in 1958 and the track cut back to the carhouse lead at Llanerch. The remaining West Chester Pike trackage was abandoned when SEPTA relocated the operating and shop facilites in the middle 1970's. The only remaining trackage on West Chester Pike are the storage tracks that have been there since 1936.
A few years ago, you used to see trolleys parked on the storage tracks, but not any more. They must be storing them in the 69th yard.
I did see a railgrinder there on Monday, though.
Chuck Greene
What you saw wasn't a rail grinder, as SEPTA doesn't own one for the entire Light Rail system, either city or suburban. What you may have seen was D-39, the Red Arrow utility work motor. D-39 came from the city division.
Thanks, Dan. Maybe you are right. The unit I saw had "FAIRMOUNT"
on it. I didn't catch the D-39 on it , though.
Chuck Greene
The line that used to branch off the R3 at Wawa Jct is abandonned to Chads Ford (bridge there is still intact). At Chads Ford there is a jct with the old Wilmington and Northern (Reading) line. The line west of Chads Ford to c. Port Deposit MD and South to Wilmington is owned and operated by the Octoraro short line.
The R5 used to run all the way to Parksburg with stops at Coatsville as recently as 1994. At that time Amtrak wished to eliminate PARK tower as a full time block station. This forced SEPTA to run all the way to CORK (Lancaster) to turn the train. After a few months of they they trunkated service to Downingtown, turning the trains at THRON. Last year SEPTA built a station at THRON interlocking (Thorndale) so as to make full use of the line.
On Monday, July 3rd at 2:39 pm, I arrived at Metropolitan Avenue on the "M" and completed riding every line and stopping at every station.
I have lived in New York since 1983 and have pieced it to together over that time.
>>> completed riding every line and stopping at every station. <<<
Congratulations Aaron! Did you stop at each station and actually leave the station and return to it, or just remain on the platform waiting for the next train? Does each station include both sides of side platform stations? Did you take pictures at each station? Obviously since you have been in NYC since 1983 this was a part time project.
In the 50's when I was railfanning I remember a newspaper story about someone who traveled the entire system (without stopping at each station) with one fare in about 27+ hours. Have any Subtalkers tried that feat? Can anyone figure the most efficient route to do that?
Tom
It sound like Aaron may have completed the entire system, but not on one fare like a few people have done. I grew up in NYC and finally completed the system (stopping at all stations) during my high school years around 1984.
Wayne
Did not get off at every station. Too dangerous!!! I guess doing it
all on one fare might be a future Subtalk Field Trip. I am not sure
the wives would go for it, however.
You may have seen me on Monday, as I was taking video of the "M" between Myrtle Ave and Metropolitan Ave. I took some video from the street, too, at Wyckoff Ave. Pretty busy area, I might add.
Also took some video walking across the Willie B, and again from the street at Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza.
--Mark
Tom, it's been done, more than once... there was a record set in the late '60s, I believe, riding the system as it existed then that made the Guiness record book. Not sure exactly the total time, seems to me it was just under or just over (by a couple of minutes) 24 hours. One of the participants in that ride has posted here in the past but I don't remember his handle. There was a lengthy discussion a year or so ago about the possibility of doing it again, how the record would compare then to now (the Culver Shuttle was still running then, and South Ferry inner loop and Hammell's Wye in the Rockaways were in revenue service; now of course we have the new route to Queensbridge), etc., but the effort kind of fizzled out. I'm getting too d____d old to consider participation in such an event, much as I might enjoy it (no way I could stay awake that long!) and the younger crowd isn't crazy enough.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse;
I know it has been done by the empirical method of starting somewhere and keeping on going till you get done. I wanted to do it back in the 50's but could not explain such a crazy idea to the family. I did travel the entire system over several days starting and ending each trip at Main Street, Flushing. It figures that the record was set in the 60's after the demise of the 3rd Avenue El.
What I was thinking of was more of an intellectual exercise, determining the shortest elapsed time using published timetables and the current route map, considering such variables as which lines are ridden at which time of day to take advantage of express and frequency of service, routes that would require the least backtracking, and the time of day and station to begin and end the trip.
Tom
That was done and published on this board about a year ago, maybe a bit longer (I've been following this board for almost two years). subway-buff was involved in the discussion as were several other posters; not sure who actually posted the "final" plan. I remember that one version (may have been the "final" but I'm not 100% sure) took advantage of a G.O. to connect from the 1 to the 5 at South Ferry/Bowling Green, and that a MetroCard transfer was debated for one location (but IIRC was not in the final plan).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[In the 50's when I was railfanning I remember a newspaper story about someone who traveled the entire system (without stopping at each station) with one fare in
about 27+ hours. Have any Subtalkers tried that feat? Can anyone figure the most efficient route to do that? ]
I did it with 2 friends on June 16, 1967. We did not stop at each station, just passed thru. We set an official record as of that date of 22 hours and 39 minutes. I have been in Email contact (thanks to SubTalk) with a person from the group that OFFICIALLY broke our record.
I was not the creator of the route which was used, but still remember one key part was an early morning run thru the Rockaways to take advantage of the wye to get to both Rock. Park and Far Rock.
I've seen the platforms of every station in the system on board subway trains.
I had quite a train experience last night. I was upstate at the Fort Edward Amtrak Station (near Glens Falls, NY) Our Southbound train to Penn Station was supposed to arrive at 6:30. Well, after 1 hour of waiting we decided to call Amtrak. They didn't know where the train was. Then a CP rail frieght train came by. They said that the signals were out on the whole line. You know what the most fun part is? The whole line is only ONE track! We had to wait for 4 hours while 3 trains went Northbound before they let our train proceed. When it finally arrived, at least they didn't collect the tickets and all the food was free.
Also, so a whole bunch of R142 near the Yonkers train station.
What do you expect when New York makes Railroads pay more property taxes for a two track line than for a one track line.
I have noticed from long-time observation, that we have tons of ferry info on this board.
I was thinking about starting (via geocities or the such) a e-mail list for "NYCFerry" or "Ferry Talk".
DO NOT respond on this board, but e-mail em privately if you are interested in such an idea. I would support free speech, but like Dave, I'd reserve the right to delete objectionable (slanderous, obscene, illegal activity suggestions) posts.
Once again- this would not be a competitor to this site but only an e-mail group. Of course- if someone wants to start such a page- I'll help with legwork and research.
I have noticed from long-time observation, that we have tons of ferry info on this board.
I was thinking about starting (via geocities or the such) a e-mail list for "NYCFerry" or "Ferry Talk".
DO NOT respond on this board, but e-mail me privately if you are interested in such an idea. I would support free speech, but like Dave, I'd reserve the right to delete objectionable (slanderous, obscene, illegal activity suggestions) posts.
Once again- this would not be a competitor to this site but only an e-mail group. Of course- if someone wants to start such a page- I'll help with legwork and research.
If anyone passed by the MVM's at Church Av & E 18 St (D/Q station), and looked at one of the MVM's there, you may notice among other things, the Windows logo on the touchscreen. Strange, isn't it?
They use Windows NT Server 4.0 as their Operating System. I've seen one go down while I was walkiny through a station and saw the NT splash screen on restart.
The ATM machines at a credit union where I use to work at is powered by Windows 95.
3/4's of the world is powerd by some form of Microsoft Operating System.
Thank goodness i work with Big Iron and only have to worry about Big Blue.
OS/2 still powers a great many bank ATMs.
--Mark
And, AFAIK, many store cash register systems.
So now what is a computer??
An ATM, Cash Register? I know some can get pretty complicated and even cash registers have full QWERTY keyboards.
IIRC, the IBM 4680 series (your standard POS system) is pure COBOL.
-Hank
No, it's not. I was one of the original developers of that system back when I worked at IBM. Its base operating system is a DRI (now part of Novell) CDos written in a mixture of C and RASM-86. The next layer of control software and the system applications are written largely in C, with some assembler. The IBM-supplied pricing, accounting and inventory control applications themselves are written in C-Basic. I worked on that project from its inception in 1984 (publicly introduced in January 1986) until the great IBM downsizing in 1994. (I was hired by IBM in 1978 and worked on predecessor POS systems beginning in 1981.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What I know of the system I learned from the repair guy. Those machines are still required to operate in pairs?
I remember spending an overnight running an update on the 28 registers at the Shoprite where I worked as a teenager. Pain in the butt to do the update when 028 is in the pharmacy and 027 is in appy, at the other end of the store. THey upgraded last time I was there, new printers (thermal) and an actual video monitor instead of a display, so you can REALLY see what you're being charged.
-Hank
"Those machines are still required to operate in pairs?"
They never were! They're placed in boxes that can hold one or two machines at once. In some places, they're put against a fence and you can see it from behind. You can also make it out from the front.
Pigs, might I suggest that you go back and read the prior post to Hank's response? Perhaps we should have changed the title of the thread, but he's not referring to MVMs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I see. Sorry.
Depends on the installation. The customer had the option of specifying single or double-headed machines. Two-headed was common in grocery and other fixed checkout stores, singles in areas that were frequently reconfigured (large department stores, for example) or large mass-merchandise (Wal*Mart). I have forgotten at this point if a three-headed machine was offered; it had been in the earlier 3650/3660/3680 environment but the only ones I remember seeing that way were in our lab. It was possible to mix and match in the same store, but was rarely done (the exception was in grocery where the customer service booth and the back room were usually singles). And a number of customers switched from the doubles to singles after experiencing spontaneous reboots that took two terminals out of service instead of just one (and before you start pointing fingers, these were largely due to crappy power wiring and a hostile environment, NOT the software - I make no secret of my bitterness toward IBM, but that software was GOOD).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Our biggest problem was when a server failed and everything we scanned came up 'Item Not Found' Fortunately, they were required to put prices on nearly everything, and we had to actually key-enter stuff with the department keys the old-fashioned way. The hard part was produce, since the item file was gone, none of the codes took, so it was key price/price/weight/produce and then check the math!
-Hank
Yes. Another argument for redundancy. Version 1, Releases 1-3 of the system only had a single controller (v2r1 introduced lan capability, with two to four controllers - two was the norm in supermarkets, with three common in retail). ShopRite was one of our early lan customers. At least you had standalone capability; some customers didn't opt for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are these systems generally taken down overnight? I once went shopping at the all-night P&C in Ithaca, NY at around 3am. (P&C is based in Syracuse. There are three in Ithaca but only one is open all night.) At the entrance to the store was a bin with markers and a sign announcing that the entire cash register system went down every night for a few hours and that we should mark the prices on the items. The cashier had a tape calculator. I was pleased to find that the credit card readers were still up as I didn't have much cash on me.
Many systems in 24-hour stores are taken down for about 15-20 minutes during the middle of the night to "close" the store from an accounting perspective. I can't see any reason for them to be down longer than that. Of course, I'm only intimately familiar with my former employer's offerings, not the competition's - perhaps theirs required a longer downtime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe the NJT TVMs us MS-DOS.
PATH uses SCO Unix . I've seen the PATH machines display a Unix copyright screen and some unix error message(s) and a statement warning against softweare piracy.
I can see it now .... I insert a MetroCard to refill it, feed the machine my credit card, then the blue screen of death fills the monitor, and I get a bill for $80,000 for the Metrocard transaction that never happened :)
--Mark
If that happens go to the booth and report the problem. While the Station Agent cant give you a card, we can call in the malfunctioning MVM, and give tell you to call MetroCard Customer Services.
Not at all. Sad to say, but without serious work b serious programmers, WIN NT is the best solution for the process. Linux and UNIX would likey give too difficult an interface, OS/2 is nearly extinct, and Win9x is not secure or reliable enough. Sad to say, but there's a reason MS is on so many machines:
It's a lot easier to use than anything else available.
-Hank
Last Week, I was waiting for an F train at Rockefeller Center, and I saw a B train entering the station. It was slant R-40s! Are the R-40s mixed on the B and Q lines now, that the B and Q swapped the equipment back in November 1997?
I took the N train to 34th Street last week, and it was half R-68s from Westinghouse-Amrail and half R-68As from Kawasaki. I thought the R-68s and R-68As never mix. Why did they mix on an 8-car N train? Was this the cause of the B train derailment at DeKalb Avenue last week?
The slant B train only runs on weekends.If you look
carefully some of the signs still say Q.
There is at least ONE Slant fully signed as B (including between the cars). The consist is usually as follows:
4312-4313; 4304-4305; 4194-4195; 4344-4345 and 4186-4187
(I am not sure if I have the consist order right).
#4312-4313 have especially noisy wheels. They screech and shriek even on slight curves. And when it ducked into the 4th Avenue tunnel (less than 200-ft radius) - OUCH!!!
wayne
I thought you loved that sound.:-) Or was it only on the Redbirds?
A Slant with "out-of-true" wheels can make dangerous noise. It's just as thrilling to hear as the best Redbird arias at Mott Avenue. Usually they are quite fastidious about keeping the Slants' (and other '60s cars as well) wheels properly ground (along the Canarsie Line, they are often eerily quiet, even on the "S" curve north of Sutter and the tight curve near Graham), but every so often one will pop up where the wheels aren't trued well and the track isn't lubricated/ground properly. This can cause the Slant to sing excessively. #4312-13 were quite noisy leaving 9th Avenue on the turnouts, entering the tunnel, switching to the express track, AND in the labyrinth north of Pacific and DeKalb. They seemed noisier making right-hand turns than left-hand ones, for some odd reason.
wayne
Mixed R-68 and R-68a trains run often, there is usually one consist that way every day. Sometimes its on the B, usually its on the N, sometimes (rarely) its on the D. It is usually a different set every few days. I think its because they need a certain # of trains, and sometimes (due to sets going OOS because of A/C, motor, or other problems) they end up with one set of Westinghouse and one set of Kawasaki. I have never seen more than one consist like this on any given day.
I just got my scanner (90$ at Radio Shack on sale) and I donb't have most of the passenger and transit frequencies. I need the following.
SEPTA Rail
SEPTA Subway
NJT all devisions
LIAR all divisions
Met N all divisions
NYCS all
Amtrak all just to make sure mine are right.
Thank you.
You should get a copy of The Compendium of American Railroad Radio Frequencies, 15th Edition
And while your on the web, see places like these, as stolen from Long Island Scanning Resources
Railroad
U.S. Railroad Frequencies
New Jersey Railroad Scanner Frequencies
Gary L. Sturm's RR Radio Man Web Site
Amtrak Radio Frequencies for Scanners
Radio Frequencies Used by Amtrak - Eastern Routes
Radio Frequencies Used by Amtrak - Western Routes
Norfolk & Southern Scanner Frequencies
Bill's Current Scanner Setup (New York City Area Railroad freqs.)
Canadian Railroad Frequncies
Canadian National Railroad Frequencies
New Zealand Railway Radio Frequencies
Also see:
NY Transit PD and Rail Operations
railroad
Central Jersey Railfan Page
--Mike
Today on my surface subway ride I was blessed with having a very tanelted operator. Most trollies lurch along, stopping and starting at all the timed signals held at red. Well this guy knew their timing down pat and was able to maintain an exact, constant speed that put out LRV past all the signals w/o having to stop. Then, just past 36th St. station he simply blew through a red signal (b4 a sharp curve) at like 10-15 mph. Didn't even attempt to slow down. I admire his courage to put the passengers trip before ass-a-9 safty prosecdures.
wuz this on the newark city or the hudson bergen?
From the context, and his past posts, he's talking about the Philadelphia Subway-Surface lines...
-Dave
thanx - i was confused there for a moment
Most definitely. At least he didn't have the fun I had Monday, when we were stopped cold just past the 36-Sansom station.
Chuck Greene
So you enjoy a SPAD huh??
Customer on time arrvival should never be put before saftey. A "S"ignal "P"assed "A"t "D"anger should never happen period. You can argue all you want that there shouldn't be a red signal there but don't pass it.
Do Surface Subway signals even show danger? I thought they showed "Stop and Proceede".
I don't know what line you were talking about. Normaly a solid red wihtout anything else like a number board of white light is stop and stay in standard railroad rules. Each system could have a difference (flashing red).
Yes, a red signal on that road gives the indication "stop
and proceed". Question: did this operator stop and proceed?
Sounds like he forgot the stop part. I don't know if you
understand just how BAD that is...one of the worst things you
can do on a railway. Suppose there was another car laying
down just around that sharp curve?
It was the 70 degree curve right b4 the 37th St. station and this was about 10 am and there had been no trains in front of us since we left 30th St.
It was the 70 degree curve right b4 the 37th St. station and this was about 10 am and there had been no trains in
front of us since we left 30th St.
Jersey Mike,
I think you're a young man and not currently involved in any
kind of railway operations. This would be a good point to learn
a safety lesson. I can't tell you how many accidents have
happened because of this type of reasoning error. I'm not familiar
with the trackage in question. However, let's do a "what if".
You hadn't seen your leader the whole trip. This makes you think
that he is far ahead of you. WHAT IF he is laying down at this
37ST station for the past 10 minutes. The operator that you held
up as a role model comes flying around this blind curve. He
is probably operating at a speed such that his stopping distance
is considerably greater than his range of vision. He reasons away
the red signal as being at danger because the timer hasn't cleared.
His leader was far ahead the whole trip so imagine his surprise
when he rounds that curve and has just enough time to say "oh shit!"
before he smashes into the next train.
Think it can't happen? It has, over and over and over again in
the history of railroading. That's why you take the safe course
and stop at a red signal. Once you've stopped, you can start up
again at what is known as "restricted speed", which is slow enough
to permit stopping within HALF your range of vision. Why half?
Because another motorman might be doing the same thing on the same
track in the opposite direction, coming right towards you.
On a system like NYCT, with positive train control ("trip arms"),
this is enforced mechanically. On most railroads, it's up to
the judgement of the motorman or engineer to obey the signals.
If you don't respect the signals, you're GONE, simple as that.
Well first of all the LRV was only going like 10 mph and with those direct rail contact shoes the LRV's can stop on a dime. The curve was only about 70 degrees (not the usual 90) and the driver had some view around the curve. I only support his actions because I believe that signals should not be used to enforce permient speed restrictions. Signals are for variable speed informations, signs are for permient speed information.
signals should not be used to enforce
permient speed restrictions. Signals are for variable speed informations, signs are for permient speed
information.
You're right, without trip arms to create enforcement, timer
signals can be ignored just as easily as the little yellow signs.
On the big railroads, you are expected to know the MAS for a given
section of track. There isn't necessarily a little "slow down"
sign before a sharp curve. However, where cab signals with ASC
are in place, sometimes you'll get a code drop to protect it.
Just to add isn't a Stop and Proceed normaly proceed at a more restricted speed until the next signal?
I don't know of any railway where blowing through a red signal
is acceptable (unless, of course, this were a railroad where
the big choo-choos play and this was a red automatic with a "G"
plate being passed by a freight).
This is the Subway-Surface trackage (streetcar) where signals do not have trippers. It's like running a red traffic signal, only there's no cops around to give you a citiation.
One of my acquiantences used to work for PTC out of Woodland Depot, and delighted in running reds, especially in the time signals under the river, among other things and there were many. He left, long before the SEPTA era, under a cloud. No transit system, anywhere will hire the guy to this day.
{{he simply blew through
a red signal (b4 a sharp curve) at like 10-15 mph. Didn't even attempt to
slow down. I admire his courage to put the passengers trip before ass-a-9
safty prosecdures. }}
Excuse me? Red means STOP now--not next block, mot next time.
Running a light is a bad idea.
I think it was in Boston, (circa late 70s) where the Red signals were enforced by a camera making a picture of the operator in question.
Has anyone heard of this?
Elias
2 days ago an Amtrak train removed another deficient person from the gene pool. This one was at the Bridesburg station on the NEC when she was hit by a 90 mph train while attempting to cross the tracks. Apperently local kids use the usually vacent passenger shelters as a hangout and use to track area to drink and do drugs because they are away from the ptying eyes of the police. The only thing that can come of this (b-sides a lawsuit) are un-photogenic barriers in the middle of the tracks. Maybe if a railfan could have been there this accident could have been averted.
The barriers will probably make things worse, the kids will spend more time on the tracks walking around or jumping over.
Tandy (Radio Shack) Center still has their subway. Three cars running, 5 cars in the barn. Since TC has added the outlet center and new office space, the parking lot was fulled. Great security, guard riding around in small three wheel motorbikes. Friendly staff.
One station was moved (realined)for possible route along the Trinity River to the Zoo.
Three ex CTA el cars were in their yard area, being stripped of parts. The main thing is get the PCC controls and trucks.
Only one ex MBTA PCC was rebuilt as a TC subway car. The MBTA cars are 3 feet too long for the station platform.
At least 10 set of PCC trucks are on the property, mostly from ex Boston PCC (bodies scrapped)
One ex NYCTA RTS bus was brought as backup if the subway was shut down.
Dallas LRV doing great. Plenty of places north of downtown to get photos.
Extension to Plano along 75 (Central Expressway) is moving along. The station shed at Richardson can been seen from along the expressway.
People in Dallas are trained NOT TO walk onto a street if the Don't Walk sign is on. Try that in New York! Their police will ticket you for jay walking. No vehicles on the street is no excuse to jay walk.
West End of Dallas is like the SOHO of New York City.
Two car RDC shuttle to Irving still runs. It is being used. Extra RDC are stored at the T&P station Fort Worth. Great ride, and cheap too!
Surtran, Airtran, and Citran names are gone (Surtran bus to downtown from DFW, Airtran shuttle cars at DFW, Citran Fort Worth local bus services.)
DFW people mover are now free. Used to cost 25 cents to ride. Change machine back then gave back only 95 cents on a dollar. Railfan seat still there, and on the right and the left side.
No more rental car shuttle buses. A common shuttle (fleet of low floor 40' Gillies) takes you to a covered area at the south end to the rental desk. Cars are now in a covered area. No more HOT cars. Old rental lots have weeds growing.
Weather was good three of the five days (overcast). Made up my two year TEX-MEX crave in three days.
I'm sure anyone reading SubTalk would also enjoy a visit to McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. It takes 30 minutes for a round-trip on one of the old streetcars. Be sure to visit the car barn to see the other cars in the fleet. See www.mata.org.
I wish I had the opportunity. But my meetings were up at Plano Tues-Wed-Thur, and lasted till 5:30.
There are still RDCs running! I am unfortunate to have been born a decade too late, or I would have ridden them on NJT.
http://www.dart.org/home.htm
DART's 13 RDC will be around for a while. BTW Fare is $1.00, cheaper than a frank with kraut.
This ferry appears on The Map and yet I don't know anyone who's even seen it let alone take it. Does anyone here know anything about it?
It runs from Atlantic Highlands, NJ to lower Manhattan. It's very expensive. I think it's over $500/month to commute into the city. It's advantage is that it's quicker than bus or car via the Garden State Parkway into Manhattan.
[It runs from Atlantic Highlands, NJ to lower Manhattan. It's very expensive. I think it's over $500/month to commute into the city. It's advantage is that it's quicker than bus or car via the Garden State Parkway into Manhattan.]
There are some extremely upscale areas near Atlantic Highlands, the town of Rumson in particular, so I would imagine that the high cost is no burden for many riders.
It does sound like it would be an interesting day trip in nice weather.
Actually, when you factor in the costs of mileage, parking and tolls (parking in Atlantic Highlands is free with your ferry ticket, I believe) it really isn't that expensive. A neighbor of mine drives from Eatontown to Atlantic Highlands in his battered old Pontiac and then takes the ferry to work (he's a computer tech for a brokerage firm).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm booking an 'Empire Service' train reservation from NYP to upstate (beyond Albany, so one of the Buffalo trains). For 'Business Class', Amtrak would charge me about $45 extra, but, according to their description, the only thing that gets me is some extra leg-room. Anybody traveled 'business class' and think its worth it, and why?
The last time I took it (on the NEC), I would judge it as a trade-off:
Business class -- everyone had a cell phone, and screamed into it.
Coach class -- everyone had a kid, screaming.
So it's a matter of preference -- do you prefer businessmen or children screaming?
[So it's a matter of preference -- do you prefer businessmen or children screaming? ]
Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
I haven't ridden the Empire service in about 3 years, and there is definitely a difference between the runs which only go as far as Albany (strictly business people on day trips and a very quiet ride in coach or business) and those going beyond.
My assessment of the trips going beyond Albany:
Coach Class -- Everyone has kids who are screaming, unless they're a college kid themselves (in which case they have their stuff sprawled across multiple seats and into the aisles)
Business Class -- Consists of about half of the cafe car, lots of legroom but plenty of noise coming from people visiting the cafe. Also lots of cursing from frustrated business people trying to use their cell phones but finding out that for whatever reason (interference, geography, I'm not sure) cell phone reception is terrible along the line.
The only time I ever thought it was worth it was during Thanksgiving weekend on the NEC, when opting for (unreserved) coach meant standing for 4 hours while Business Class (which was then Custom Class) meant I'd be guaranteed a seat. In trains that are all-reserved in coach anyway, I don't see the point of paying so much for extra legroom when the legroom in coach is quite adequate, at least for me.
I *have* shelled out the extra bucks for a Metroliner betw. NY & DC, as opposed to a 'Northeast Direct' unreserved train. In effect, the whole train is 'Business Class' (except for a small section of 'First Class'), and it gets there faster with fewer stops, this being the *main* reason I upgraded. No such benefits on an 'Empire' train.
I'll upgrade to Custom on a regular NE Direct if Coach is 3/4 full, just to get the extra leg room, no kids and somebody asking for my seat at each stop if I had to get up. (Doesn't anyone know what a seat check is anymore??).
As for the MetroLiner, only if work is paying for it...
I have used the custom class on the San Diegans numerous times, It was worth it especially on weekends and Summers, when there was standing room only in the regular cars
Ride coach. You'll have a better chance of getting a refurbished car where you can use your laptop. I rode from Penn. Station to Poughkeepsie and the coach car was refurbished and the business car was old.
Are the refurbished cars the ones with the blue curtains and digital signs? I remember having one back in '98, and it was not a custom class car.
Yes, they are. I rode from Richmond to Newark last October on one. Talk about cattle car, though - from Baltimore north it was S.R.O. even though I was on an all-reserved train. It appeared that, at least on that particular Sunday, Amtrak wasn't doing a very good job of keeping those patrons with unreserved tickets off the reserved trains. People with reserved seats through to Boston were complaining that they were having to stand; when I got up to get off in Newark two of them started squabbling over my seat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe it comes with a complimentary beverage and newspaper. A reserved seat in the café car (or adjacent car) is probably what you'll get, unless you're on the Turboliner, where business class is basically in the engine and the café is in the middle, so you're the furthest from the food. Of course, those Albany trains can get pretty crowded, so having a reserved seat might be worth it so you don't have to sit right next to some loud guy with a cell phone, or a screaming baby.
Well, Guys, I decided to opt for the upgrade to 'Business Class' after all. I decided I'd rather deal with cell phone users than having to stand, *and* listen to kids scream. It's a 'special' trip for me, not one I'll take often, so the comfort of a reserved seat likely far from the more crowded part of the train won me over. I already had a fare discount anyway. Besides, I had occasion to ride on a newly remodeled 'Business Class' car recently on a 'Keystone' train to Harrisburg (a lucky instance of equipment allocation for me, I guess), so I know and like the environs on the cars -- don't know if the 'Empire' train's business class uses the same equipment. (Have the turboliners begun service on the line yet?)
Incidentally, I researched airfare to my upstate destination and found that travelling by air more than doubles the cost (even with the business class upgrade) and saves no time because of connections. I wonder if the marketing wizards at Amtrak are aware of this.
If anybody belongs to the AAA you get a 10pct discount on Amtrak.
Does anyone remember/have any links for the kid in the early 90s that took over an A train?
As I remember, he made several stops correctly, and only got caught because he took a turn too sharply and triggered the emergency brakes...
This story always interested me, and I always wondered what happened to the kid. Thought this would be a place where people might remember that sort of thing... but I couldn't find it on the site anywhere.
rv
sounds like fun
It's been discussed here several times.
I don't think "took a turn too sharply" could possibly be the reason he got tripped up-- I mean, after all, the tracks are laid the same way for every motorman :-) Too fast is more like it...
-Dave
There was an incident where Keron Thomas did operate a subway train on the A line but it wasn't exactly "stealing". There are some "employee imposters" who carry their own stolen tools, and wear uniforms as well in order to deceive personel and operate equipment, such as trains and buses. Mr Thomas befriended an employee before this incident in order to tap information and subsequently reported to one of his terminals of report while out sick. Working the extra list brings you to many foreign terminals in which many times I did not have my ID checked so it is easy to see why Darrius McCollum can steal a bus or Keron can take a train. He did run a red signal because he rounded the curve coming into 175 Street northbound at excessive speed, which is covered by grade time signals. He was finally caught because he didn't know the penalty recovery time of R44 cars. Supervision was suspended at the sign on terminal involved and we now receive a bulletin from the Chief Transportation Office once a year asking our supervision to check passes on unknown personel.
I wasn't going to point out that it couldn't exactly be "stealing" because the miscreant had no intent to permanently deprive the true owner of possession of its property. That was my first reaction, but I decided that that was legal hair splitting. I guess we lawyers aren't the only people who split such hairs. Of course, if he had had some way of removing the train from TA tracks, that would have been different: the great train larceny.
He reported in and operated in service, how can that be stealing??
The supervisor gave him the run!!
Yah I'd call it impresonating a T/O or whatever, stealing?? Nope.
Considering the potential for disaster, at the minimum, the unauthorized operation of a train in service should result in a charge of "Reckless Endangerment" at the very least. If an injury or death should result from such operatiion, the charges shoud vary from assault to criminally negliget homocide. I don't think that such an act should ever be viewed as a harmless prank.
Which begs the question: How DO you steal a subway train, short of constructing an electrified siding off a mainline to your backyard? Wouldn't that make it easy to "track" you down? (ok, bad pun).
How do you steal a car? The theft does not begin when you pull into your driveway. The theft begins when you enter the vehicle for illegal reasons. To be perfectly reasonable, I'd say that if you are caught in a motorman's cab with a reverser key and a brake handle (or an open end wrench and socket wrench of the correct sizes) that's prima-facia evidence that you intended to steal (or illegally operate) the train.
Because there is no way to actually "steal" a subway train (i.e., you just can't remove it from the system by normal means), Keron Thomas could have been brought up on the lesser "Theft of Services" charges (besides Reckless Endangerment). Actual "Theft" or "Robbery" wouldn't apply here.
Doug aka BMTman
Or, as someone mentioned, unauthorized use.
That reminds me: Ever heard about the dumbness Felon?
He wanted to hijack the D Train to Cuba!!!
;-)
And with the R68's on the D line these days, he'd probably arrive in downtown Havana in early 2215 ...
That does it. RIM SHOT!!!!!!
Remember Rico Patrone's line in the original Pelham 1-2-3?
I think I just figured out how they're going to get away. They're going to fly the train to Cuba.
I read a story in Trains magazine of the 50's or so about somebody who knew the railroad, the rules [enough to put white "extra" flags on the steam loco he took off with.] and went merrily on his way, running light thru the countryside. Some dispatcher finally noticed after an operator reported Extra l000 west lets say, I don't recall, by his station that he never authorized such a movement. The next operator (train order) station was notified, he dropped the order signal to red..and dutifully the thief[?] stopped the loco according to rules. The sheriff was waiting for him. The case was thrown out of court when the judge said the loco. was never removed from C&NW property. Was this another kid railfan that knew the railroad and rules, or was it a disgruntled, discharged employee? Don't know.
rv:
I do remember back in 1993 to be exact when the kid "stole" the "A" train. As I recall he ran a red signal and the emergency brake were triggered and he was going a bit to fast. Apparently he was a subway buff and when the TV news reporters visited the apartment where he lived there were all kinds of stickers pasted on the walls and to the door of his room that were all subway related. He got into trouble for something else serious at a later date which might have been weapons possession. I don't know what has happened to him since.
BMTJeff
YA know how much grief I had to put up with from family and friends after this incident :-) ...
I don't recall the 'A' train incident, but I do remember another incident back in the early 1980's when a kid was caught operating a train at the World Trade Center IND terminal. Apparently he was a friend of the motorman and was riding with him downtown when the motorman became ill. The motorman then got off the train a few stops early to use the bathroom and let the kid finish the run! Nobody suspected anything was wrong, not even the train's conductor, until somebody saw the kid walking back at WTC to start the return trip!
I don't remember which line this occured on, but the 'AA' and 'E' operated to WTC at the time. The news stories did not indicate what kind of cars were involved, of course.
Does anyone else remember this incident?
- Jim (RailBus)
I BELIEVE it was an E with either R 32s or 38s....
If you guys know your PRR trivia the Prinston Shuttle (The Dink) was stolen on several non-consecutive occasions by princeton students who would run the little MP-54 up and down the line during the wee hours of the morning. Also the line from Princetom Jct to Princeton was once its own RR called the PJ&B or Princeton Junction and Back.
I rode the PJ&B at an early hour of the AM with a friend of mine who was a student at Princeton at the time.
The line, BTW, was never independent. It was always a part of the PRR. The PJ&B was a nickname given by (who else?) Princeton students in the 1930's.
I heard a Philadelphian refer to the PJ&B as the TP&B (To Princeton and Back). Same line, different perspective.
Bob
The MP-54's also had the Princeton seal on their front doors.
I remember it Very well. The kid who Stole the A Train's name was Keron Thomas. He got access because a T/O was drunk. He stole an R44 from the Rockaway park yard. I dunno where he began service, but from what I understand, I think he Ran over a Trip arm because of speeding against a Timer. He never made it north of 59 I believe. He almost made it, but I think he ran a Homeball or a Automatic Controlled by a Tower, because when he was tripped, the Tower knew where to send the police. He didn't know how to reset the Train. He was supposed to go to Jail for one year, but he didn't. The last I heard about him was on a Newsday paper where he stood on a pole in 168th street station and the paper said Don't Follw in my Tracks. Anyway the TA forgave him, and they said he could come back and become a Motorman because he did a Good job operating the A. However, he was involved with a Rape or Stabbing so the TA withdrew their offer.
BY THE WAY, HE WAS 19 WHEN HE STOLE IT. THAT AINT A KID!!!!!!!!
Paul
I'd like to know where you get your facts from as you are totally off or this is your idea of a joke. Or is this HeyPaul, in which case I will forgive the mistatements.
engine brake... please leave me out of this... i am currently involved in growing devil bats who i am training to attack various enemies of mine... i do not have time to make up silly stories... i only read this message board to watch my enemies destroy themselves... again, please leave me out of this... i am above all of this silliness...
Ah this confirms a story that I heard about heypaul. At age 13 he got a bat as a Bar Mitvah gift but it flew away before he got to play with it.
Ah this confirms a story that I heard about heypaul. At age 13 he got a bat as a gift but it flew away before he got to play with it.
I believe Keron Thomas first "stole" an A train (5/93) and made an uneventful trip from 207th to Lefferts, then took another trip back and got caught running a red signal north of 175th St.
And yes, he did have several run-ins with the law after this incident, including some kind of sexual assualt. He was also a minor at the time he stole the train.
All in All, I'm not Keron Thomas, but for some dumb reason I've been mistaken for the cat several times, He has 7 years on me! LOL! I'm only 20 now!
The basis of the problem is........Extremely Nice Motorman/Bus Operators. I've been shown how to operate just about every car operated today including the R142 and several types of NYCT Bus. Not to bust up on the fun of us younger rail/bus fans, but I even felt wierd being taught this. I felt like I was being given the code to the pandora's box at the CIA.
If Keron's motorman friend never showed him how to operate the subway car, I very much so doubt that incident would've even have happened!
YOUNG FANS, IT'S NOT THAT DEEP, BE PATIENT, TAKE THE TEST AND YOU'LL GET THERE!
Flxible Metro B #3511
That's good advice my friend. Being wise is the best way to go. I may never set foot in the TA as a T/O, but I do the next best thing: Operate retired Rapid Transit Equipment at the local Trolley Museum. It's a blast! Enjoy your hobby to it's fullest.
-Stef
You got alot of the facts WRONG.
First of all, Thomas was 16 or 17 when he "stole" that A train. As a matter of fact I recall reading that part of his reason for doing what he did was to impress his high school classmates. It was sort-of "how do you top this?" kind of one-upmanship. However, he was well versed in NYC rapid transit operations since he honed up on T/O procedures by befriending NYCT employees (as many young railfans would do).
A year or so after the A train incident, I recall he made headlines once again when he pulled a knife on another youth during an argument over a street game of "craps." I believe he when to jail over that infraction.
Doug aka BMTman
Okay now that i'm bored I'm going to put in all of the other questions that I can think of now so please answer or else you will be forced to watch the Teletubbies for 10 hours! okay....
1. The rockaway division appears to be ex-LIRR - my question was, was the center express track used to run expresses to Lefferts BEFORE the Rockaway line was converted to subway?
2. Did the Franklin Av. Shuttle originally connect to the Fulton St. El in the days before it was killed by the IND four-track?
3. The track arrangement at Utica on the IRT suggests that the Express tracks (4) were going to be extended east on a different line then the New Lots one. Was this ever proposed?
4. Has anyone ever proposed taking the northern tail of the 1/9, converting it to BMT/IND, hooking it into the A and then only running 1/9s as far north as Washington Heights?
5. Where was the IRT Nostrand line originally planned to extend to?
6. Were the center express tracks on the F north of Church ever used? Was the Express track south of church used by trains AFTER the IND built the northern tail of the F?
7. Why was the J/Z only built as a two-track when they knew Jamaica was going to be the central terminus for all things LIRR? Did they run out of money?
8. The F-line in Queens, was it ever planned to be extended east? It seems off that they'd go to the trouble to put in 4-track and then never get it much farther than Sutphin.
9. Did there used to be a J el out towards Jamaica that ran near where the J now enters the subway?
10. Am I asking too many questions?
If you have the answers to any or all of these please post them now. Muchos Gracias!
1. I've never heard of any revenue service on the Liberty Ave express tracks, before 1956 (as a BMT line) or after (when it was x-ferred to the IND. However, the old-timers would know for sure.
2. Yes. This connection was severed when the Flatbush Ave corridor pened, connecting the Brighton line to the 4th Ave subway at Dekalb, in 1920.
3. Yes. The Utica Ave. extension has been proposed several times in the past 80 years.
4. Not that I've heard of.
5. The 1929 IND Second system had the line extended all the way to Voorhies Ave. in Sheepshead Bay. I'm not sure where IRT planners were gonna terminate it before then.
6. Yes and yes. The express tracks were used north of Church from 1967-73 during rush hours, with the G running local south of Smith/9th. Carrol Garden's residents killed it after complaining about the loss of direct service to Manhattan. The center express track along McDonald was also used from 1973-1987 to provide peak direction express service by alternating F trains, with Kings Highway trains running local and thru trains to CI running express.
7. The original plan was to construct a flying express track over the Fulton St. portion, and an express track along Jamaica Ave. It was put off, delayed, then forgotton about.
8. Yes, all the way to the Nassau county border in some plans.
9. Yes. Out to 168th/Jamaica. Stations were:
168th/Jamaica (closed 9/9/77)
160th/Jamaica (closed 9/9/77)
Sutphin Blvd. (closed 9/9/77)
Queens Blvd. (closed 4/15/85)
Metropolitan Ave. (closed 4/15/85)
Don't get me started on this subject. It's a pet peeve of mine and I don't want to go on another rant about this monumental disaster. LOL.
10. No. That's why this message board exists.
Hope I've helped.
5-Also the Irt was going to extend Nostrand Ave to Ave X and Meet the Utica Extension and share a elevated Term, Stops were supposed to Be Ave L, Kings Hwy, Ave R, U and X. That is why Flatbush Ave is a side platform, rather then a island
so why are the new lots tracks connected to the south side of the utica platform? wouldn't it have been easier to connect the north side instead? if utica had ever been built it would have required crossing the new lots and utica tracks....
I think the (6) does that anyway between 125th St and where it turns east to 3rd Av at 138th St. Presumably the express tracks under Eastern Pkwy would have crossed under the locals.
I've never seen any plans, but I assume that, if the trains were to stop first at Utica Av, the line would have turned down Rochester or Buffalo Av and then returned to Utica Av via East New York Av.
Bob Sklar
Your questions suggest that you haven't explored many of the other, really great parts of this website. There are not only answers there to most of your questions; there are even answers to questions you haven't even thought of yet.
Just to get you started, the answers to 2, 6, 8, 9, and 10 are yes, yes to both, yes, yes, and yes. For more details, get off your butt and check out the rest of this site.
4. Not even sensible.
1 South Ferry 9
and why not? the northern tail is dual contracts, and running the A's on that section would provide faster service to manhattan (since the a goes nonstop from 125 to 59 and on the 1/9 you have to either put up with mass stops or change to a 2/3 instead now WHY wouldn't you want to have the northern tail of the 1/9 NOT be the A (not to mention the higher capacity of BMT/IND trains)
The Dual Contracts extension were in the mid-teens, were they not? Such as Lex north of GC, 7th Ave.below Times Sq., Most of the IRT in Brooklyn. and most of the BMT subway. Upper Broadway was one of the first additions to the original IRT, about l905, maybe a year or so later? That isn't dual contracts... whether those deep rock tunnels have clearances for the wider cars I can't say.
I doubt they have the clearance for B Division cars, since they were part of the original contract (and the site of the worse loss of life during construction), and I'm sure if there was enough room in their for regular-sized crash walls between the uptown and downtown trains, they would have put those in already for safety reasons. Plus, the ramp down to the tunnels from where the A/C are now at 168th Street would be a pretty steep grade over a short distance.
i never said they should connect at 168th I said that the 1/9s should terminate at 207th and that the northern tail of the 1/9 should connect to the very end of the A at 207th. Where did 168th come from?
The trains could use the elevators.
I can answer a few questions.
The Nostrand Ave. line was planned to go to Ave. W (as of 1968)
The Queens Blvd line went as far as 169th St. by 1940. According to
proposals put forth in July 1940, the line would first be extended to
179th St. (done in 1950), then to 212th St., and then to Little Neck Road.
The Jamaica Ave. line went as far as 168th St.
Minor correction----The street is Little Neck PARKWAY
Today marks a sad day for all Railfans. Today July 5, 2000, Marks the one year anniversary of the retirement of SEPTA's Almond Joy cars. Luckily, I was able to get down to Philadelphia frequently to ride those great cars during their last months of service. Their last day in regular service was June 30, 1999. They were not officially retired until their last run on July 5, 2000, When a train of them were chartered by the ERA as a part of their National convention. Now, what used to be a fleet of 207 cars, Is down to around 15 with 5 in work service. Only two have been preserved, 606 in the Arden museum and 618 which is awaiting transportation to the Seashore Trolley Museum.
There were 270 cars
officially retired until their last run on July 5, 2000
Do you mean last year, or was there a fantrip I just missed?
--Mark
That fantrip was on 7/5/99.
Wow, I rode them on June 29th 1999, I had no idea their retirement was that soon after.
What are the plans for the Seasshore Almond Joy, if anyone out the knows?
The movement date has yet to be determied. The car will be operable and be operated at Seashore thanks to a pair of standard guage trucks from PATH (Which are from scrapped "K" cars) I still can't imagine 618, an Almond Joy, with a trolley pole on it....
-Mark
I know the Pennsylvania trolley museum has no plans to run their almond joy.
Yes, they are power hogs that make LRV's look downright economical.
Arden figured that even if they were to put trolley poles on it, which they will not do, it still would run only if nothing else was on the line. Their sub will accomodate 6 or 7 cars all starting at the same time.
With Seashore's demand meter on their trolley power, excess draw at the wrong time costs them many $$$ they didn't expect to spend.
I forgot to mention that one other thing affected Arden's Almond Joy not getting poles was the historical accuracy involved. PRMA is trying to be more professionaly driven, and while putting trolley poles on an Almond Joy may make it operational (ignoring the power question), it never ran that way in service, so, no trolley poles.
Third rail is, of course, out of the question.
I remember reading the PTM newsletter when they acquired the car and thats exactly what they said. It seemed as if they were "dissing" other museums who did put trolley poles on rapid transit equipment that were not originally equiped with such,.
They do seem to have a different attitude, to say the least. Of course, if they're going to be consistent, then I would assume that they plan to restore 803-804 as an Electroliner rather than as a LibertyLiner :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Arden isn't the one with the Liberty Liner, It's Railways to Yesterday at Orbisonia, and they plan to restore it as a Libery Liner, but with poles a la CNS&M, as third rail is also out of the question.
It's gonna be interesting to see that beast running at Shade Gap - it should give their sub indegestion. So far it's confined to their newest carbarn, no firm date for restoration, they have a lot on the plate ahead of it.
IRM has the other, restored as the North Shore intended, with the railroad to run it on. Nirvanna for the First and Fastest.
[It's gonna be interesting to see that beast running at Shade Gap - it should give their sub indigestion.]
When the P&W's Villanova sub went down, they stopped using the Liberty Liner until they brought the sub back online. After a short time running it again they realized that the need for track maintenance had been significantly reduced during its absence, so they removed it from service again.
Bob
Dan, you're absolutely right, not sure what I was thinking - I saw and photographed it there in '93 (sitting outside rotting away) and even bought a t-shirt with its picture on it. Probably I read Arden and somehow translated that into Orbisonia. Thanks for setting me straight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't understand the mindset where you restore a thing but then don't make it possible to operate for it's intended purpose.
i.e. museums should make as much of their collections available for the public to re-live or sample for the first time. They used to say that coming to Shoreline was a trip down memory lane ... well there aren't too many who remember riding the 100 year old cars, BUT there are a lot of happy customers that have experienced them for the first time ... me included as I only got to ride the PCCs and I'm a 50 somethinger.
Many wouldn't like in Rome or Egypt either, i.e. restore the Coliseum and hold events there ... ask the French to put the nose back on the Sphinx (they shot it off) & re-paint it. I here some growns, but think about it.
Mr t__:^)
The museums are trying to move towards more "professional" status. The AAM (American Association of Museums), which is orientated towards the "traditional museum) are slowly realizing that the "Living Museum" concept (Practiced at all operating streetcar and railroad museums) is also valid.
So, museums are moving to being more professional, especially in regards to equipment.
Example: BSM obtained Baltimore crane 3715 in a three-way swap orchestrated by Shore Line's Bill Wall and BSM's Ed Amrhiein. The car was built in 1913 by the United Railway's Carroll Park shops and used by URE and Baltimore Transit until 1954, when Branford acquired it. As built the car had specialy sprung Brill 27G trucks and WH 101B motors.In 1939, BTC re-equipped the crane with new hoisting machinery and boosted the car's weight to 72,300 lbs from the previous 68,150 lbs. This overloaded the car's trucks.
AT BSM we will replace the 27G trucks with a pair of Brill E-50 trucks, which can safely handle the increased weight. The car's original specs are archived in the BSM library, noting the changes made and why. This is being done to be more professional in caring for our archival material. We fully intend to use 3715 for the purpose it was built - Track and Shop work.
[The museums are ... slowly realizing that the "Living Museum" concept ... is also valid.]
An example of would be "childern's museums".
[BSM obtained Baltimore crane 3715 in a three-way swap orchestrated by Shore Line's Bill Wall ...]
We (Shoreline) already had another crane, #W3, a 1929er from Montreal, that is operation and used quite frequently. We got a gasoline powered version in return. This we're getting operational too, e.g. just in case a tree should knock a pole down so there's no electrical power. on the line.
This just goes to show how two museums use the equip. instead of letting them rust in one of the barns. BTW, I've been part of the crew on the W3 several times (not the operator, just crew). Doing track work or moving ties is hard work, but FUN just the same for a railfan.
Mr t__:^)
[I still can't imagine 618, an Almond Joy, with a trolley pole on it....]
It took me a while (a couple minutes, anyway) to get used to seeing P&W Bullit car #205, which I rode many times to and from work in Radnor, with a trolley pole at the Rockhill Trolley Museum, where I've ridden it several more times.
Bob
07/06/2000
[[I still can't imagine 618, an Almond Joy, with a trolley pole on it....]
How about Branford?
It took me while to get used to seeing an R-9 with a trolley pole on it. Now an R-17!.......that took even longer. And what if an R-33 single is acquired by Branford?, A repaint back to the aqua blue and white and what's that on the roof? A TROLLEY POLE !! YIKES!!
Bill "Newkirk"
It sounds freaky doesn't it? Look it at this way, we don't have to obtain a working car, it could just sit there. But I would like to see a WF Car rolling down the line, so a Trolley Pole is a must....
-Stef
... and besides, it grows on ya.
--Mark
It's also nice to be able to quickly pull the 600 off the car
to work on something on the road.
I plan to do the work on #618 at Seashore. It will probably be moved by summer's end.
The car will be placed on ex-PATH trucks, currently under the "Berkshire Hills" parlor car body. However, new center bearings need to be made, since #618 is a "pure" almond joy, not a "Budd Lite" car modified for use on the Norristown line. This is not too much of a challenge, but will require a few dollars and some time.
I have to do some studying first, but I plan to do a "minimally invasive" trolley pole installation (one at each end since the car probably can't be looped). My guess is that I can build a framework around the fan bulges to attach trolley boards to. I did a similar job on "Bridge" car #1023, from the Broad Street line.
Other than that, the car will be preserved 'as-is', under a tarpaulin temporarily intil a new car barn is constructed. The original trucks will be preserved at Seashore as part of the collection, but will probably not be used.
If my colleagues on this site wouldn't mind a sales pitch, we will probably need about $10,000 just to move #618 and get some work going at Seashore. I've pledged $500, plus my time and labor. ANY donations, large or small, would be gratefully appreciated (and certainly well spent).
Perhaps a few Philadelphia-types can start a "dinner club", this worked well for Seashore in the past. Everyone in the club contributes, regularly, the cost of a dinner (say $10-$20) to the #618 fund. If about ten people do this, the money builds up fairly quickly, ensuring maintenance and indoor storage for #618 in the long term. We currently have a club for M&B car #41 that's raised about $10K in about 2 years, I'm a member. All we need is a Phila - area Almond Joy club "ringleader".......
I was just looking at pictures of them! I wasn't fortunate enough to get to ride them in their last days. They (and to a little lesser extent, the PCC's and Kawasakis) are what got me into transit in the first place. Does SEPTA plan to preserve any of what's left of them for the museum maybe. On SEPTA's web site, they were selling pieces of the cars for collectors...their numberboards, the original PTC maps the cars came with, the control stands, and a few other items.
Yesterday, there were multiple July 4th firework shows in Atlanta. This caused the whole system to look almost like Lexington Ave., except without as many delays, except one. I was on a packed train when the train suddenly stopped about a 1/8 mile short of Lindbergh. The train started creeping and stopping for almost five minutes. About two minutes into the ordeal the T/O came on the PA and said "please do not lean on the doors, this causes the train to stop" People around me quit leaning on the doors, but it took another three or so minutes for the train to finally make it to the station.
I never knew there were sensors built into doors that would stop the train. This has never happened to me before. I assume the T/O wasn't making this up since train kept creeping and stopping. Are there in fact door sensors to sense people leaning on doors?
On the NYCT system, once the doors are closed and locked, unless a piece of linkage breaks and a panel becomes free wheeling, this would not happen. Apparently the Atlanta system will sense door movement normally allowed for on the NYCT system. This movement tollerence (called push-back) is not normallly sensed once the doors are closed & locked.
Was this push-back feature present on the IRT, BMT or SIRT rolling stock?
I'm coming to NYC on 7/15 with two of my friends, who unfortunatly not much of railfans. I'm only going to be in NYC for a day (I get free flights wherever I want, and no I'm not sharing :)) How can a cover as much subway as possible without pissing my friends off? You know, like taking the real long way via Queens and Brooklyn to get from Times Sq. to WTC. Since I've been to NYC before, my friends are going to be following my lead. I'm planning on visting Times Sq., WTC, Coney Island, Grand Central, and maybe the Statue of Liberty. I'm only going to have about 10 hours to do some sight seeing, then I'm outta here. I'm going to be arriving at LGA, how do I get to the N line? What bus do I take? Should I take a taxi to the subway station?
No, me and my friends won't stand out looking like tourists. I look like I'm high (I've NEVER done drugs before), my other friend looks like he ready to kill someone (he wouldn't). Well, maybe my other friend will stand out, he's a redhead. So if you see a group of three 19 year olds fitting our descriptions, don't hesiate to go talk to them! :)
The M-60 bus stops at all terminals at LGA (in this order: Delta/Northwest, USAirways Shuttle, USAirways, Main Terminal, Delta Shuttle). The N station is at Ditmars Avenue, about a 10 minute ride from the airport. You'll know it when you get there... the "el" is overhead. (If you ride over the Triboro Bridge, you'll have gone too far! Then it's into Manhattan for either IRT line or the IND.) Buy a MetroCard at a newsstand first, so that you can take advantage of the free transfer to the N. Have fun!
thanks for the info. Do you mean a newstand at the airport or at Ditmars Ave.? Do they sell fun passes at the newsstands.
The station being referred is Astoria Blvd. NOT Ditmars Ave. Ditmars Ave doesn't exist....he probably meant Ditmars Blvd which is the terminal for the N....but to keep things simple:
- He probably meant the newstands at the airport
- The station he is referring to is Astoria Blvd
For present purposes, it doesn't matter what it's called. It's the first and only El the M60 will come to in Queens. If you ask the driver when you get on the M60, I'm sure he will point it out (if he remembers).
The newsstand at the airport... (I dont' think they sell FunPasses, though). And yes, of course I meant Astoria Blvd. Sorry for the confusion.
You have to go upstairs where people check in to get the Metro Card. The newstands by the gates do not sell them.
I'm surprised that there are no MVMs at LGA.
[You have to go upstairs where people check in to get the Metro Card. The newstands by the gates do not sell them. ]
Correct.
And ONLY *Hudson News* (their sign has blue letters) sells the MetroCards. If you go to any other "News" operation, you will not get a MetroCard, only blank stares.
Rob,
I suggest taking the Q48 bus to the #7 train to get from Queens to Times Sq. Your friends (and you, especially) will enjoy the spectacular views of Manhattan on the ride in. See if you can get in the first car, as all the R33/R36 Redbirds (I think these are the right rolling stock numbers, and someone will undoubtedly correct me if they're not!) have railfan windows. As the elevated train winds down Roosevelt Ave. through Queens, you will see the city skyline from distances great and near, and from many different angles! On the other hand, I think I remember reading somewhere that Georgians have a bit of an aversion to our beloved Queens IRT Corona/Flushing elevated subway. If that's the case, the M60 bus to the N train affords a quicker route, as well as views of the city. IMO, the #7 vistas are more extensive and exciting.
So, take the Q48 to 111 St. to catch the #7 train, where you will receive a free transfer with your Metrocard. (If you want to intersect with the #7 a bit closer to the city, you can catch the Q33 bus to transfer to the #7 at 74th St-Broadway, but I thought you and your buddies might enjoy seeing the Corona Park/Worlds Fairgrounds/Shea Stadium/USTA Center before heading to Manhattan.) Ask the bus driver to give a shout when you reach the transfer stop to the subway.
Airport navigation note: Since you are coming from Atlanta, you're probably flying Delta. At the Delta terminal, the city-bus stop is across the arrivals service road, so you must cross the street (where the taxis and limos are) to catch the buses. At the other 2 terminals (Main & US Airways), the stop is on the curb outside the terminal door (follow 'Ground Transportation - Buses' signs). If you happen to be flying US Airways (not Shuttle), there is currently *NO SIGNAGE* indicating that the MTA and Triboro Coach Corp (which is who operates Q48 - white bus w/ red stripe & metrocard still works) stop there. Just wait by the green bus shelter and catch the bus driver's eye as he approaches. If you decide to take the M60 to the N, you will wind through the airport and stop at the Marine Air Terminal (Delta Shuttle), looking like you are going the wrong way, but don't worry, you will get to the Astoria Blvd. N stop eventually. The stop is just after you cross under the el tracks.
Have a great time in NYC!
KP
Correction: It's the Q-33 that goes to the E/F/G/R/7 from Delta/Northwest, USAirways, and the Main Terminal. The Q-47 only goes from the Delta SHUTTLE from BOS and DCA.
I think I did mention that *both* the Q33 and the Q48 will take you to the #7 from the 3 major terminals at LGA. The Q33 will take you *also* to the E/F/G/R, as will the Q47, but the Q33 does *not* stop at the Delta Shuttle & Marine Air Terminal, and the Q47 does. Conversely, the Q47 does *not* stop at the 3 major terminals at LGA, only the Delta Shuttle & Marine Air Terminal. The M60 will take you to the N train and stops at all terminals at LGA. The Q48 also stops at all terminals, unless something has changed very recently or since this map (click here) from the MTA website was last updated. If you zoom in on La Guardia, it looks like Rob should be able to catch the Q48 I mentioned from any terminal at LGA.
True, Pete! But the Q-48's route from LGA to the 7 "back-tracks" to Flushing, resulting in a longer ride in. Good for us railfans, but probably not for Rob's friends!
Thanks for the great info everyone. Okay, lets get this straight: My choices are-
M60 to Astoria Bvld (N)
Q33 to 74th St.-Broadway (7)
Q48 to Flushing-Main St. (7).
I'm leaning towards the Q33 for the views. I would take the Q48, but I saw the map and it would probably take too long, maybe if I was alone I'd do it. I'll probably take the M60 to go back to the airport, so I can ride more parts of the subway.
If they don't sell Funpasses at the airport, would it be wise to buy a single ride Metrocard, and then buy a Funpass at an MVM somewhere?
Single ride MetroCards are not sold at the airport; you need an MVM for that. The newsstands only sell the pre-packaged kind, such as $15. But remember that you can bring up to three "friends" with you and gain free transfers, so you and your group can share.
Rob,
Sounds like a good plan. Take the Q33 to 74th St.-Broadway, but make sure you go upstairs to the #7 for the views, and not down to the Queens IND (E/F/G/R). The Q48 would definitely make you back-track a little -- I just thought you would be able to see the famous sights in Queens near Corona Park. You can take the N to the M60 on your return trip for a change of scene. Have fun!
KP
Do yourself a favor. Take a cab to Main & Roosevelt to get the "7" Flushing Line (Or Ditmars for the "N"). With 3 people the cab wouldn't be much more than the bus and it would get you there much faster. After all, what you really want to do is ride the subway, not a slow bus.
Does anybody know why this station still has lightbulbs?
Are there any other stations that still have lightbulbs?
I assume you mean incandescant, and its because the TA can't upgrade all 468 stations cheaply and easily. Look at most of the Queens IND stations, the mezzanines still use those 40 watt bulbs. The only fluorescent light is near the new MVMs, installed at the same time as the MVMs, to make people feel safer handling money around them. Sometimes 10 or 15 light bulbs in a certain section will be out, vandals enjoy doing this to make the area more hospitable for their cash acquisition. 168st (1/9) has large globes for lighting, several Rockaways stations have (as platform lighting) construction style lighting (bulbs behind yellow plastic things).
>>>Sometimes 10 or 15 light bulbs in a certain section will be out, vandals enjoy doing this to make the area more hospitable for their cash acquisition<<<
Believe it or not vandals are not always the case for large amounts of bulbs being out at any given time. Incandescent bulbs are wired in series of 5 if on blows out 4 others go dark with it. Incredible but true. Like the old lights that drive you nuts every Christmas.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was either wire them in series or find some other power supply. These bulbs are fed off the same 600VDC that runs the trains. It's really an elegant, low tech, low cost solution (which has that one drawback you mentioned).
BTW, don't forget that there are lots of stations in which you will see the old bulbs in place but (almost) never lit. In those stations, they're backup lighting.
Incandescent bulb-lit platforms, like carbon steel cars, bulkhead destination signs and tokens are all on their way towards being nothing but memories. Aside from Bronx Park East and Pelham Parkway, I can't think of any other bulb-only lit stations left, aside from the Rockaway Shuttle branch, Eastern Pkway on the J/Z (fourescents being installed as we speak), Broadway Junction (ditto) and the unused Aquaduct racetrack platform (has original working fixtures last time I sped through it at night).
BTW, can anyone tell me why none of the recently re-vamped stations along the Broadway Brooklyn el have completely working lights? It's been 2-3 years and still these stations only have maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of the new sodium lamps working at one time ...
Gee - I remember from the 1950s - 1960s when the TA was in the process of installing flourescent lights in the underground stations. Most of the IRT and BMT stations were done by the 1961 or 1962, but many of the IND stations didn't get flourescents until the late 60s (except for those latecomer stations like 179th St Jamaica and the stations east of Broadway-East New York in Brooklyn which had fluorescents when they opened).
I believe that the open cut stations on the Brighton line (Prospect Park to Newkirk Ave.) were among the first open-air stations to get fluorescents, around 1962.
-- Ed Sachs
Broadway East NY, and most local stations west of there had incandescent-only lit platforms as late as 1981. The Fort Hamilton Pkwy. and Church Ave. stations on the F line didn't get flourescents until late 1987!
Go here. Scroll down a little, its there. They're replacing the lighting in most stations that still use the old lighting.
Does anybody know why this station is so disgusting?
I go to Coney Island at least once a year. I always think that the next time I get there, some maintenance will be done.
Well, I was there yesterday for the Nathan's hot dog eating contest.
It looks the same as always:
Dark and Dank!
[Does anybody know why this station is so disgusting?
I go to Coney Island at least once a year. I always think that the next time I get there, some maintenance will be done.]
A huge renovation project should be starting soon.
Pete: I usually agree with you but I'm withholding any such agreement until I see it happen. Stillwell Avenue IS disgusting and it makes me sick to see it look that way when I go to Coney Island. Even in Las Vegas, they have a big hotel called New York New York, and the subway station is modeled after Stillwell Avenue. Can't the DOT or the TA get on the stick and really renovate that station. It makes all of us sad.
Fred--If you had been able to come on our tour to Coney Island, I handed out a copy of the TA's plans for Stillwell Avenue. I probably have a few copies left, if you want one (please, lets not flood my mailbox with requests).
For the past several weeks I've been on R trains out of Continental Ave. during the AM rush that show "Whitehall St" as the destination. The dispatcher announces that the R will make "All stops to whitehall street". When we get to Times Square they announce that 14th street will be the last stop and that the next stop will be 34th street, followed by 14th street. The train is then switched over to the express tracks before 34th street.
Why are they turning trains at 14th street instead of Whitehall? And why don't they still say "R to Whitehall" until they get to 42nd street? I haven't been on a train that actually turned at Whitehall in over a month.
There has been work being done on the tracks at Whitehall. The center track was out of service for awhile and then for a day the uptown track was out of service with trains arrving on the center track. I only assume the downtown track was OOS for a time as well but I only personally observed the above.
All to be addressed by the months G.O. on the weekend when Whitehall will be closed, no R in Manhattan and the N going 6th Avenue.
Isn't Canal St the alternate southern terminal for these added R trains in the AM rush? I've ridden quite a few of these ...
i was thinking that the mta might consider issuing a series of metrocards to commemorate the contribution that the railfan has made to mass transit... one card might show a typical railfan peering out the railfan window in a pin-striped straight jacket...
another card might show a railfan taking photos using a high intensity halogen flash of trains entering a subway station... perhaps another card might highlight some misguided railfans' attempts to operate trains or control towers... and a final card to paid tribute to our doug's ability to include a trip on the franklin shuttle as part of getting to and from any 2 points in the city...
...or how about a MetroCard featuring Bill Newkirk swapping cards at one of the recent shows....or Thurston taking his fifth coffee break at his bus company....or Mark W. tripping over some jungle-growth while giving a tour of the old LIRR Rockaway branch ROW....or Lou Levinson operationg a trolley up at Branford Electric Railway....or heypaul posing proudly with his R-9 cab...the possibiliites are endless.
Doug aka BMTman
07/06/2000
Doug,
You failed to state that these cards should be autographed thus boosting their collectable value !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I would think that the ultimate collectable Railfan MetroCard would be the one depicting Webmaster Dave Pirmann at his computer terminal deleting this thread!
;-)
Now wait Bill, you have to pay me for my autograph.
How about Stef repainting 6688 (R17) up at Shoreline?
"i was thinking"
That scares me just by itself :-|
Mr t
How about a photo of the late Steve Zabel on the Metro Card.
Today, 7/5/2000, is the official launch of www.oldnyc.com. Oldnyc.com is a web page that explores the abandoned and little used railroad lines in New York City. "Virtual Tours" are provided for the abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach line, parts of the New York Connecting Railroad line, and the old LIRR Bay Ridge (now being leased by the LIRR to the New York and Atlantic Railway) line.
Thomas Scannello
www.oldnyc.com
Fantastic!
I'll be looking for it!
www.forgotten-ny.com
VERY GOOD STUFF! Especially the detailed gallery of Rockaway branch LIRR photos. Especially the Woodhaven station photos! Exactly where is that tunnel which goes from the Rockaway to the Flatbush branch? Is it along one side of the ROW or in the center?
wayne
According to old diagrams, the "Woodhaven Connection" to Ozone Park had the tunnel positioned south of the Atlantic Branch and west of the Rockaway Beach Branch, with the curve occurring just before the Rockaway Beach substation. I don't know if that tunnel still exists. I think portions of the school bus company's parking lot reside on the land above the tunnel (if it is still there).
Tom
www.oldnyc.com
There was an article in the June 29th issue of Our Town, an East Side
newspaper, concerning light rail. It covered the New Jersey line,
the proposed 42 St. line, and the proposed Red Hook (Brooklyn) line.
There were some good facts and updates
Here are a few:
The New Jersey Line: Ridership is around 5,000 a day. The projected
ridership is 120,000 by 2010, when the line is
supposed to reach N.Bergen.
Average speed is 15 mph.
Cost was $30 million per mile.
42nd St. Line: The project is still alive. The route
is now supposed to go across 42nd St. to 12th Ave., down to 39th St. to connect with the
ferry, then east to the Javits Center and Penn Station.
There is a possibility of a spur up Broadway to
Lincoln Center. Opposition is mainly from
building owners (access worries), Con Edison
(utlity-line access) and traffic officials
(traffic congestion due to construction).
Red Hook Line: Supposed to be under construction in 6 months.
Initial line is to be 1/2 mile. Plans are for it
to go to the Brooklyn Bridge. There is also
a plan to connect the line to the old railway
tunnel under Atlantic Ave. and then on to the
Long Island Railroad Sta.
The Red Hook line is the pet project of Bob Diamond, the fellow who rediscovered the Atlantic Avenue tunnel and who posts here occasionally. Perhaps he'll see this post and update us with the current status.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bob Diamond is going to have a run down his ROW this Saturday -- if the information is correct.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, were planning to have some runs @ 1PM Saturday. The location is the southern foot of Van Brunt Street (499 Van Brunt).
Hmmm, just hours after the SubTalk thread about the M$ Winbloze
NT4.0 screens on the MVM (Metrocard Vending Machines), I saw
my first example of one (zone N333B in case anyone cares).
There it was, the nice blue startup screen, with the NT logo
customized for MTA New York City Transit. The usual mouse
cursor was present, but since there is no mouse and no keyboard
on these things (at least customer-accessible) the machine was
effectively useless with no way to reboot it.
Leads me to wonder, with tongue firmly in cheek, could there
be a new virus going around that crashes these boxen? It seems
to be a new phenom...I've never seen it before today and you know
that screen sticks out like a Perl hacker at a Multics convention.
Maybe someone inserted one of the new $10 bills and the machine
committed suicide over the ugliness of the design?
jeff... i love the title of your post...
i don't know much about the machines crashing, but i am curious if there has been any cases of the machines being vandalized?
07/06/2000
[i don't know much about the machines crashing, but i am curious if there has been any cases of the machines being vandalized?]
I've seen some MVM's with scratched screens.
Bill "Newkirk"
Which is part of the reason why the 'touch' part is seperate from the actual CRT.
-Hank
>>> could there be a new virus going around that crashes these boxen? <<<
Jeff;
Rather than a virus, I'd suggest it is standard Microsoft reliability.
Tom
Microsoft <==> Reliabiity = Oxymoron
How true it is!!
I tend to disagree in the case of NT 4.0. My employer uses it and I find it to be very stable. Now W98 might be another story.
Peace,
ANDEE
NT4 is very stable, but there are programs that will cause it to either crash or produce the BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.
[The usual mouse
cursor was present, but since there is no mouse and no keyboard
on these things (at least customer-accessible) the machine was
effectively useless with no way to reboot it.]
I'm surprised they don't use watchdog timers.
Arti
I've seen these machines opened up (with Revenue Agents watching, and in some locations the police were also standing guard).
Inside there is a keyboard, mouse and CPU and a standard monitor.
That is all I can say (they dont even allow us to get closer than 2-4 arm's lenghts away.
Yes- they do have audible and silent alarms! and yes, like turnstiles the computer in the booth (and Jay Street) lets us know when the machine is not working or the machine is opened.)
Interesting thin I have observed is tha Windows based computers tend to get more instable over a period of time. We'll see.
Arti
My windows based computer has seen almost constant operation since 1995 with no problems (I currently run, Win 98 Beta 3 and Win NT 4, and used to have Win 95, Win NT 3.1, and Win 3.1). 120 Mhz Processor, and both those OSes sharing a 1.2 GB hard drive with plenty of room to spare, thanx to compression. Of course, neither OS can see all of my drives at once, but that way if a virus invades there will always be one part that is untouched. If one OS acts up, I can use the other for a while.
Mine is at 6th iteration.
Arti
>>> My windows based computer has seen almost constant operation since 1995 with no problems .... If one OS acts up, I can use the other for a while <<<
Henry;
Your post seems to have a contradition in it. An OS "acting up" is a serious problem. Microsoft has gotten us to believe it is just normal. Great marketing on their part!
Tom
I define a serious problem as one that destroys information or makes the computer unusable. If one OS is not starting correctly, I can use the other to connect to the internet and find the solution (or fix it myself). However, my Win 98 internet connection is 1/4 the speed of my NT connection, though its the same modem and ISP. It takes 3 minutes to load the SubTalk message index from Win 98 even if it set to show messages in the past day.
TA installs CTRL -ALT -DEL on MVM's.
Today in answer to customers upset about MVM's breaking down the TA will spend 10 Billion to install three new buttons (non touch screen) on the famous MetroCard vending Machines.
[Today in answer to customers upset about MVM's breaking down the TA will spend 10 Billion to install three new buttons (non touch screen) on the famous MetroCard vending Machines. ]
I reccomend special circuitry to perform this function with only one button! The price: JUST $50M. I feel for MTA.
Arti
Just wondering who will be there. I will be in the rear cab for the duration. Stop by and say hi.
-Mark
07/06/2000
If the weather is good, I may not be riding but photographing it on the move!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll be there this Sunday, Mark.
--Mark
yesterday, i ran into doug at the transit museum... i was there selecting a coloring book for my summer project in recreational therapy, while doug was discussing with whomever would listen his recent discovery about the franklin ave shuttle... he discovered that the current franklin shuttle was a
just a small part of a much larger franklin ave connecting shuttle, designed by a rather eccentric planner for the old board of transportation...doug just recently got proof of these plans when he bought an old good humor ice cream napkin from arnold joseph, which had a sketch of the grand proposal... it was to connect the various franklin avenues in staten island, queens, and the bronx... although there is no franklin ave in manhattan, there were plans to change the name of franklin street to franklin ave, thus making it possible to have an all borough franklin ave connecting shuttle... doug surmises that the planner liked strawberry since there were several red stains on the napkin...
LOL!!!!!
Paul, you REALLY have too much time on your hands! ;-)
Does he also get off at the Broadway station on the N line to see a musical? Or is the Broadway station on the G line? I forget... :-)
I bid $1,000,000.00 on the napkin. You should get it to Southerbees or how ever you spell it.
Last night I was at Cortland St when 3 crew members from the JFK came down past the booth and got buzzed through the service door. Is the TA giving free rides to the Navy this week???
Per Official Bulletin:
Military personnel **in uniform and with military id** (emphasis mine) are to be allowed free entry into the system.
If they are not in uniform the bulletin says theu have to pay (or if they dont have id).
This goes for all branches of the armed forces.
is this always or just this week???
Just this week! (also- the Chief Station Officer has the right to decide that a certain event such as a Politican Convention has free ride privileges. If it is decided, an official bulletin is issued explaining the decision and giving us the instruction to allow free entry to that group.)
[Chief Station Officer has the right to decide that a certain event such as a Politican Convention has free ride privileges]
Why?! Shouldn't MTA be apolitical.
Arti
They're not supposed to be apolitical, just non-partisan.
One aspect of NYC's application for the 2012 Olympics is of note to transit fans.
According to the presentation I saw, the entire application is based on the notion that of the U.S. applicants competing (Chicago isn't) only New York City can move the guests around, and only because of the subway. All the venues would be at subway or (if outside the city) commuter rail stops. Fans would travel by subway, athletes (for security reasons) would travel separately be water, reserved trains, and express bus.
As presented, the plan would have all events scheduled to begin and end in the non-rush hours. Since the capacity of the transit system is virtually unlimited relative to demand off-peak, it would be no problem moving a million or so people around.
The weak points of the plan? Political approval (and settling lawsuits) for all the venues is nearly impossible in a NYC contexts. And, NYC has a shortage of hotel rooms which is not going away.
They could put up a big tent for everyone in the Meadowlands and bring them into the city via the 7 line extension.
After seeing Haypauls little thread aboot railfan metrocards I thought about the possibility of personalized metrocards. Now tell me if I am wrong, but a metrocard is just another piece of plastic with a mag strip. When you buy one all the relevent information is coded on the back. You should have the option of presenting ANY plastic card w/ a mag strip to be coded by the token booth agent.
why not you can buy personalized stamps in Canada you send in what ever picture you want and they print it on Stamps for you.
[You should have the option of presenting ANY plastic card w/ a mag strip to be coded by the token booth agent.]
Well the MTA/TA ain't going to let you do that. They have a crime unit that looks for folks doing bad things with their MCs all the time.
However you could pay the TA some money to have them put your face, etc. on a bunch of their cards. It doesn't cost all that much, per card. If the contract was for, lets say, 10,000 cards then you would probally have to pay a storage charge until you used them up in your life time (you would have them "encoded" one at a time as needed).
Mr t__:^)
Is 10K the minimum order?
BTW, what has the anticrime unit got to do with supplying your own piece of plastic -- so long as you pay to have the fare encoded on it? It seems to me that the real problem would be that most cards with mag stripes are the size of credit cards, which are too thick for the equipment. In as much as there is a virtually unlimited supply of empty or expired official metrocards for the crooks to play with (due in part to the defective little hoppers for used cards attached to the card readers in the stations), allowing non-standard cards (that fit the equipment) should not appreciably increase the fraud rate.
Which reminds me, is there any plan to correct the design defect and replace or repair those hoppers?
[Is 10K the minimum order?]
When I researched it, official request, the minimum was 10,000 with 50,000 being a much better per/card value.
[what has the anticrime unit got to do with supplying your own piece of plastic -- so long as you pay to have the fare encoded on it?]
The "encoding" is a two step operation. The first occurs in one of the TA back rooms, the second at the subway station. This makes it less likely that the Station Agent is a suspect. Similarily in this depot we have a KISS system ... every card is accounted for by s/n, so neither I nor any of my staff can steal a card because it would be missed right away (we sell pre-valued cards).
Mr t__:^)
I see. At a minimum, you'ld have to have a central location where the customer would have to bring his card for the first step encoding to be performed. I have to admit that this begins to sould like more bother than it's worth. Too bad.
there has been one change it is being phased in:
Once a card is put into the disposal bin it **permanently** loses any remaining value and can not be fixed in the booth. At stations where this has been done the signage on the bin reads "Deposited cards permanently lose their value"
Is this change being made to discourage those who pry open the bottoms of the bins?
Yes. Also- it takes time away from other customers when we check a card we know to be empty( we see the pryed open bin ) and they bring the card to us. Yes- we have to check the card. We can refuse to check a card that is obviously bent or extremely gunky (would jam in our card reader slot).
I see people in line fuming when someone has 5-10 cards and wants us to check all of them (I already saw them swiping the card and it has insufficient funds available.) I encourage people to throw away (or refil) their card instead of having 5-10 cards and trying to remember which has money (or time).
Once again- we do give customer service to all, even those we know to be scammers.
I hope that they make the new bins studier than the first set. It's a pain to see a pile of old cards all over the floor beneath a bottomless bin.
Back by popular demand, this is part 8 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Opinion Questions about the Subway.
On my many recent trips on the Philly transit system I have begun to notice the many distinctive smells of the several different lines. The MFL smells old and musty, the BSL smells like urine, PATCO smells like 60's plastic and the Surface Subway smells sort of sweet and musty.
Also many stations have distinctive smells. 8th St. has a small that makes me feel light headed (like warm cleaning solution), City Hall smells like urine and 30th St. smells dank.
So, what are your favorite subway smells and have you noticed that different lines have different smells.
[So, what are your favorite subway smells and have you noticed that different lines have different smells.]
PATH stations are well-known for their peculiar musty odor.
ESPECIALLY in a hot humid summer.....
ESPECIALLY Exchange Place and Pavonia Newport.
Washington DC Metro station entrances (mostly the escalators and around the farecard machines) have a funny metallic aroma to them.
Here in NYC, 21st St-Van Alst has a very musty smell due to the spring leaking through it; Chambers Street BMT smells of mould and Bowery smells like weewee. Chambers Street IRT (7 Ave line) smells like wet, putrid garbage + rat poop.
wayne
On the upper Broadway line [1/9] I always thought l68 st and l8l st had a distinctive smell, hard to describe but not unpleasant. I kind of liked it just for being different. Then there was Greenpoint on the G but I can live without that one.
Let's see on the D/Q north of just Prospect Park, if smells like crap. Whew. You can get a wiff by riding an R40 and when the gush of air from outside starts coming in, you can smell it. One more, it's not really a smell but it's a nice place to be on a hot summer day. If you go to Canal Street on the J/M/N/R/Z/6 and get onto the Bridge Platform, it'll give you a break from the heat. That station is always cool.
All I can remember is during the summer of '67 I worked as a messenger
(the summer before college) and I transferred at 14th ST from the BMT to the IRT. The concourse connecting the two had many food stands, and the combination of smells used to make me sick ---a sweet, sickly smell of baked goods that was overpowering.
Maybe that "aroma" on the D/Q near Prospect Park is the animals int he zoo?
Where's Smelly Kelly when you really need him?
Sometimes I can smell swamp odor as the #7 train I was on crosses the creek over Van Wyck during low tide.
Anybody knows how's the Bowery station in Manhattan is doing? I have to admit that 10+ years ago when I really had to go and couldn't find a public restroom, I went to the one station I know that I can get away with... Bowery! Since then I have gotten on & off at the station a couple of times but it's been awhile now.
I like the smell of steel and grease? (I guess) like on lex local on 23rd 28th street stations.
Arti
MARTA smells like Band-Aids
07/06/2000
A Road Car Inspector (RCI) friend of mine stated that Stillwell Terminal smells like french fries 365 days a year !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's wierd because I don't know of any place that sells french fries anywhere near that station . . . ;-)
He's mistaken the french fry smell. It's a smell all right, but it is liquid and you don't drink it. Sad to say, it's the urine station. It smells of rancid urine.
07/08/2000
[That's wierd because I don't know of any place that sells french fries anywhere near that station . . . ;-)
How about that food stand on the entrance concourse called "The Islander"? It seems closed now, most likely for a moveacross the street and the impendind rebuilding of Stillwell. I myself always smelled french fries.
Bill "Newkirk"
A friend of mine contended that Kings Highway of the Brighton line smelled like shrimps.
Long Island City (LIRR) smells like bread, Roosevelt Island has a strange, pleasant scent. Come to think of it, all the new stations have a semi-pleasant odor.
Back in the days, before the M1s came to Long Island,
and trains had windows that opened,
You could smell the bakery as the train came into Jamacia.
I stopped riding the LIRR in '83 when I moved to North Dakota,
but in all my years as a daily commuter,
You could smell nothing from the M1s.
You reminded me of coming into Long Island City, jsut leaving the tunnel heading for QB plaza, on an Astoria train. I used to love the smell from the Silvercup bread bakery. Anyone remember that bread? Do you still live in North Dakota? I'm in New Salem, ND. If you do plz send me an e-mail!
I remember Silvercup Bread. It tasted great and I lived across the street from it---the Queensbridge Housing Apartments. Lived there for ten years. Smelled the bread all the time. We used to go to the day old store and buy the bread that made great toast. When did they stop making that bread? Does anyone know?
Every time I've ridden M-1's on the LIRR, all you could smell was hot brake shoes....
[Back in the days, before the M1s came to Long Island,
and trains had windows that opened,
You could smell the bakery as the train came into Jamacia.
I stopped riding the LIRR in '83 when I moved to North Dakota,
but in all my years as a daily commuter,
You could smell nothing from the M1s.]
Even with the sealed windows on today's trains, you sometimes can still smell the bakery.
Dear All SubTalker:
I had a incident happen to me on BusTalk last night which prompted me to make this post.
Some outed me on BusTalk, I'm Bi-Sexual, and this person let the whole board know it. At the same token I didn't let it get to me and took it with a grain of salt.
This situation has opened my eyes that much more wider as to why people on these boards feel like they have to hurt people, dig dirt up on people, and cause embarrasment to certain individuals on the boards.
Salaam Allah, HeyPaul, Pigs of Royal Island and a few others have been slinging mud back and forth on this board for a while now, Heypaul has really cut back and I commend you for it. As for the others, PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE THIS ANY FURTHER OR SOMETHING MAY COME OUT THAT YOU MAY NOT WANT TO TELL ANYONE. It's the year 2000, new fresh start, I think it's just time for all of us to make a truce, bring out the white flag and hang all of the negativity up.
What you say?
Have a safe and blessed day!
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
Trevor, apparently there are some truly vindictive and sick people lurking, waiting to do their evil all over the internet. However it's a dual edged sword and as one former SubTalker found out about 2 years ago, you can be held accountable.
On a personal note, I can appreciate your sense of violation over your sexuality being opened to public scrutiny. As for myself, as long as in doesn't involve children or animals, what consenting adults do is no concern of mine. Live your life and enjoy it and don't worry about the shit-heads. I think most of the Sub-Talkers are bigger than that.
Dear Mr. Logan:
It is unfortunate that people have chosen this, or any forum, as a means to inflict pain upon those whose only "crime" is in being themselves. Now I am not the most liberal minded of people; I personally do not condone every type of lifestyle or conduct but that said, my biases, and my ignorances are my problems. As such I have no right to impose my viewpoints upon others or for that matter to use them as an excuse to inflict pain upon those with whom I disagree. It is not an easy lesson to learn and Lord knows I am still learning.
But I participate in this forum not to brag nor to boast. I seek not agreement with all that I've said, but merely dialogue; dialogue with people about a common interest whose impact has long affected the lives of people around the world. I wish I could adequately answer your question as to why "People Do Hurtful Things" but I cannot and I seriously doubt that anyone really can for if we were to ever really have such an answer then I doubt not that all wars and poverty would cease on the spot.
My only advice to you then is to NOT SIGN OFF! Continue to participate in these forums, express yourself fully, and without reservation. Your voice is an important component of this dialogue and for it to be silenced due to the ignorant utterings of a few misguided individuals is to do Sub-Talk a diservice and provide those poor, pitiful people with more satisfaction than they deserve. I am not gay by any stretch of the imagination but I am human and that is the only bond that counts. So to everyone who reads this, KEEP THE BILE AND THE BIGOTRY IN THE BOX! This forum is about sharing ideas, improving lives (if possible), and ultimately HAVING A GOOD TIME!
Peace!
Eric Dale Smith
E DOG
I wish I could answer that question. I'm proud that I've always seen people for who they are inside. I think overall our Bus/SubTalk family are decent folks with good intentions. However, like most other places problem (or problem people) will surface. At times many of us have had our differences sometimes things got out of control, but this is truly malicious in every sense of the word. It was a very insensitive thing to do and I'm sure it does hurt. I'm glad you chose to take the high road and not go down to this person's level.
Hang in there Trevor...
Wayne
I was about to begin writing this post advising you that you should have just ignored the nasty gentleman's post altogether, thereby not encouraging him or drawing attention to him and his blatant misuse of this forum, to put it mildly...until I found myself about halfway through the thread, reading the posts and cheering on your supporters...
I suggest readers of *this* post ignore the thread until our fearless leader Dave gets around to deleting the way-off-topic discussion -- don't make the same mistake I did, lest you feel a nasty sense of unintentional voyeurism...
Trevor, don't waste your time worrying about it. Your talents are obviously put to better use.
Since I've been off this site for over a week, I know I'm not the guilty party. I fancy myself as one of the "good guys", but about a month ago I was in verbal combat with three or four of my railfan colleagues. I'm over that. I'm glad if there has to be a bad guy or two, it;s the other guys and not me.
Truy after following the link I did'n realize why it was posted. The follow ups cleared the picture. You've posted this page on the Internet, so be prepeared for anyone to find it. At the same time if I were to post something I'm proud of and some find "whatever" I would not even bother reacting. You did it because you were proud! So what do you care.
Regards,
Arti
Dear Arti
I care because now where people's heads are at, I will make it aware to those that things can really get out of hand, I was using myself as a example in this post because I've seen some ugly stuff go down on SubTalk (i.e. Salaam Allah, so on and so on). It was to aware for those to calm it down. I've did some not to nice things in the past on BusTalk. And this is probably someones retaliation.
To Be Aware, Retaliation is not cute, and I wanted to really bring it to the forefront.
TLJ
.........could i ask please .....leave my name out of this discussion ????.......( thanks ) .....
07/06/2000
Trevor,
Unfortunatly this is a reflection of todays society that relies on the news media to help "expose" someone while inflicting embarassment as well as personal damage. While BusTalk is not the news media, someone felt it was necessary to place you in a negative light.
When election time rolls around, I cringe when those TV ad's for those running for politcal office come on. There is little if anything in those ad's that show what this person stands for or what they will do if elected. It's digging up dirt and slinging it with reckless abandon.Now with the hotly talked about New York senatorial elections coming up we'll see even more of the same.
Whether anyone agrees with me or not, I WILL vote for Rick Lazio for senate over Hillary Clinton despite what all those know it all liberal Democrats and brain dead celebrities think. Rick Lazio started off being Mr.Nice guy in his AD's, yet Clinton is doing what she knows best and that's to sling the mud in hopes to get elected. Pretty much the same thing happened to you, someone wished harm on you on you by "outing" you. Was that called for? NO! I guess when people do these things, they must feel some "rush" of power knowing they damaged someones career or life in general.
Trevor, just hold you head up and don't let this get you down. Your private life like ours should remain just that.....private!
Bill "Newkirk"
[Trevor, just hold you head up and don't let this get you down. Your private life like ours should remain just that.....private!}
I agree with the first line. However, it should be noted that Trevor went and created a website that basically "outs" himself. He knows there are hurtful people in this world with some a--holes that would use his personal data against him.
My word of advice: if you create a personal website, but want to keep your private life just that -- PRIVATE -- then don't go and post every detail to be seen by the ENTIRE WORLD.
Now, with that said and done, I do feel that Orion 666 was nasty and meanspirited in his use of your site's info as 'cannon-fodder' for a personal attack and that is just low-down and dirty no matter how you look at it.
To all: be careful on how/what you post to your site, you never know what jerks are lurking in cyberspace.
Doug aka BMTman
Amen!!
Peace,
Big D
Because people have SHORTCOMINGS and they do these things out of self-centered FEAR or out of EGOTISM or out of NEGATIVE FEELINGS about themselves. These things must be forgiven; since they are human frailties. I for one have not a care about other people's personal business; since it can never interfere with mine. This is what makes this country great - our personal FREEDOM. It is unfortunate that people abuse these freedoms by doing harmful things to others. In this case, it is best to put this episode behind you. Keep your chin up and don't let this get you down.
wayne
So what? I don't give a rats ass. To me, all but a few of you are merely 1's and 0's arranged in a coherent pattern. I don't care if you wear dresses, if you're an alcoholic, or you like to type with your toes. I only care that what I read here is coherent, and makes sense. And it must not be a load of lies, or "facts" for which you bear no proof. Which is why I love the net. No one knows who the hell you are unless you WANT them to know it.
-Hank
As a side response to a topic currently on the site: how about these: When High V's and Low V's ruled the IRT (with a few other types) OK most of the routings similar to todays but The Beloved Broadway-7th Ave Express from New Lots to Van Cortlandt? Running express up the West side and then the nice snappy ride uptown including some long stretches between stations? That was my favorite. Anyone old enough to remember that the lights never blinked out on 3rd rail gaps on the High V's? They had bus jumpers and the whole train was always with power.How about the 3rd Ave. el in Manhattan (sadly I only rode it on the last day). Gate cars on Myrtle until l958; when we had the nice BMT southern express service via Manny B and Broadway; and of course the R1-9 on most of the IND ? That's what made me a railfan-old days!
I remember the old Bdway-7th Ave Express to Van Cortlandt Park. My Grandmother used to live 2 blocks of Dyckman St. Sometimes I went there for the weekend. After school on Friday took the Brighton Exp(always 1st car on Triplex) to Times Square. If I was lucky enough got a Bdwy Thru Exp. express all the way to `157th St, stopping only at 72, 96 and then 157th. I forgot what the marker lights were, Yellow and Orange I think.
The thru express as I remember it and don't think it ran any other way, was to l37 as express then all stops. With the middle track being used to relay locals southbound there wasn't much opportunity to express thru l37-l57.I often wish they had though. Markers were green/yellow later red/yellow, or perhaps it was red/yellow first. Normal markers on regular service were red/red. I used to make that ride a pilgrimage some afternoons just to ride that thru exp.Glad I did because it was short lived. Broadway-7th Ave was great then, wasn't it.
Maybe it was 137th, I used to love looking out of the Railfan window as we went outside on the Manhatten Valley, passing locals in both directions at 125th Street.
Most of the first generation equipment was gone by the time I became immersed in the subway in the late 60s, but the BMT standards were still running on the Canarsie and the R-1/9s were still moaning and groaning along. And, of course, the R-10s still ruled on the A.
You're indeed lucky to have witnessed what you did. It was one of the final chapters in the early history of traction even though "my stuff "survived a few more years in a few other places. Erie-Lackawanna commuter cars for one. Even if you did like the R10 best the Ab's and R1-9 were a taste of what had been since about l902. But time moves on, hearing the Septa Almond Joys are retired reminds me of riding the original Market St. cars, the Almond Joys replaced them a year later (l960-6l) now they're gone, along with much of the other "new stuff" as I called it right into the 80's.Best wishes.
I rode the #4 train from Grand Central to Bowling Green today and I was on Car #1380 which was part of the consist of this particular #4 train. I noticed that the door chimes were rather weak soundong. I wonder what causes them to become weak?
BMTJeff
Not enough fiber in their diet. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
On the R-68s/68A's I have noticed a small box mounted on the outside wall of the b cab, it is approx. 12"by 6" is this some kind of sensor for the climate control?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think that's what it is.
Sort of! It's called the 'Lay-Up' Thermostat. it only functions when the heat is switched off and the train is layed up. It keeps a minimal amount of heat on - just about enough to keep things from freezing. When the HVAC is activated, the Lay-Up thermostat is out of the picture.
Thanks!
Check out this little gem concerning Russian trains, courtesy of today's edition of Slate:
Between checking tickets, handing out sheets and taking orders for tea, train conductors must find time for a particularly thankless task: keeping a vigilant eye on the toilet and its frequent visitors. "Diarrhea sufferers will be forced to get off trains," the Moscow Railways said in a press release distributed last week.
A spokeswoman for Moscow Railways explained:
When passengers travel in the summer they take
fruit, vegetables and chicken in plastic bags with
them or buy pies with cat meat at train stops, and
then there is a chance they will either get food
poisoning or an infectious disease.
Yum, cat meat.
YUM!! - sounds like an improvement over the cafeteria here at work!!
Hey, years ago I came across some splattered diarhea in an LIRR car bathroom on a weekend.
Once upon a time....
before the invention of the M1 cars
they used to have toilets that dumped on the tracks.
There was a sign in each toilet not to use it in the tunnels or in stations.
To make a short story long, the lady went in before the train entered the tunnel, she had to go real bad, and she had diarhea just as the train entered the tunnel at speed.
Ooops.
Oh yeah!!! I heard that story from an LIRR engineer, who was my next-door neighboor -- he was running the train on which the splattered lady rode. We all know how fast they go down the ramps into the tunnels in LI City -- and when the train hits the tunnel, all the air comes UP the ol' poop chute in the restroom. Charlie said that the woman screamed so loud, he thought he hit someone on the tracks and dumped the air. Once they found out what was what, they proceeded and they had the first aid station nurse at Penn Station assist the lady in getting her clothes cleaned, etc.
Another acquaintance was an electrician or the LIRR. He said he and the rest of the crew were under a high level platform wiring up some station lighting. A train was approaching, so they all stayed under the platform -- and when the train went by, a huge turd when rolling past them. He said he never saw his crew get out from under a platform so fast!!
Now that I've read all this, I think I'll have breakfast.
EWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!
I was on a Metroliner back in Jan.1995 and upon entering the lavatory found a "pie" in the loo, far too large to be flushed.
wayne
You're supposed to bring a spatula to break up the big stuff.
Doesn't surprise me. I caught Giardia when I visited the old USSR. It was so common there that when I told the nurse back in NY where I'd been, she said right away "bet you have Giardia."
The former SU is sort of a nuclear-tipped third world country.
I hear alot about this weekends G.O.s. What is supposed to happen to the N,and R?
The MTA website has infos on this.
Now on eBay: Item #376005179: No reserve, minimum bid applies. Negative-original (not a copy, nor a scan, but printed from the actual camera negative), an 8x10 inch copyright-registered photograph of a classic Brooklyn, New York scene. This extremely sharp and clear photo, taken November 4, 1947, in the Bay Ridge section at the intersection of 5th and Bay Ridge Avenues (photo is looking north and was taken from the southwest corner), shows the once ubiquitous Peter Witt style trolley #8282, headed for Fort Hamilton, operating on the Fifth Avenue line stopped to discharge and receive passengers, and Loew's Alpin Theatre, which offered two feature motion pictures: Bob Hope and Jane Russell in The Paleface, and Ray Milland in Sealed Verdict. The photograph was taken by Robert Wasche, noted trolley and transportation photographer, who, beginnning in 1946, walked and photographed, generally block-by-block, each of Brooklyn’s trolley, bus and elevated lines, photographing a clean and dependable means of transportation never to be forgotten. The photograph is hand-printed and developed on Agfa archival glossy stock, and will last a lifetime under proper storage conditions. The labels and cross-hatch lines shown on the eBay photograph do not, of course, appear on the actual photograph. Here is an opportunity to possess an original photograph of one of Brooklyn’s most classic and historic scenes Bay Ridge scenes. Please also note that we have in stock thousands of similar classic scenes from all over the Borough of Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, The Bronx and Staten Island. •For further information or additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you wouldn’t want to miss an item you were looking for. Over 25,000 items in all categories are to be listed in the future.
PUH-LEEEZE stop using this board for personal gain! Mr. Pirmann and several SubTalkers have made this request before.
David
Actually, in fact, I never said any such thing. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Joe asked me privately if he could occasionally post such items.
I don't mind if people hawk some wares, so to speak, via SubTalk. We've got a couple people selling railfan videos, track map books, etc. I even host web pages detailing these items, so its natural that occasionally they are mentioned on SubTalk.
The guidelines are simple:
Keep the items are relevant to the general topics of this site; keep the posts infrequent (I don't think Joe posts more than once or twice a month).
I certainly don't mind being informed about what's available. Of course, you may not agree with the seller's pricing or whatever but that's your right not to buy. I'm sure some people are interested in these things. (As for me personally, I will buy items once in a while but I don't care much for E-bay auctions- but it's up to the seller how s/he wants to handle the business aspect.)
Also, if it really upsets you remember there is the option of the Killfile.
-Dave
He should at least be paying you for the advertising.
Sorry about that...thought you (David P.) had said it a few months ago.
David
Joe, this is NOT a commercial website. Try to refrain from giving your ebay items these long-winded plugs.
If you have to do this, keep the details down to a minimum, why don't you.
Question for the more experience train buff's....
How much is it per mile, for track to be laid electric 3rd and centenary with concrete ties? Straight tracks and curves..
Frank D
Hi Folks, Just a reminder that the 7 line WILL begin 10 car service tommorrow night around midnight. So get your cameras out and get your pics taken of the 10 car version of the 7 line. This is SUPPOSEDLY the last summer of the redbirds (10 & 11 car redbirds) for this line. Regards, Tom
07/06/2000
[This is SUPPOSEDLY the last summer of the redbirds (10 & 11 car redbirds) for this line. Regards, Tom]
SIGH! And thus ends an era in subway history when the sound of roaring axiflow fans cease. Looks like we'll have to go up to Branford and hope #6688 is running and the axiflow's are drowning out everyone's conversation !!
Bill "Newkirk"
HA! Ain't that the truth. 6688's axiflow fans are not operating temporarily while rehab continues. Unfortunately, one of the axiflow units is in need of repair and will be taken care of, when I (and others) get an opportunity.
-Stef
>>6688's axiflow fans are not operating temporarily while rehab continues.
That is why there is a large piece of masking tape over the switch!! >G< You should pull the fuse for it so no accident happens. I tried working on the fans last trip for an hour. Gave up because of the heat (unable to get doors open, couldn't find the jumper or Ted to tell me where it was). If I get time tommorrow I'll look into it and clear the hanging wires.
>That is why there is a large piece of masking tape over the switch!!
Are you trying to be a ball buster? I am fully aware of the tape over the switch, Thank You..... Furthermore, who's gonna flip the switch?
I'll be up on the weekend, to get things taken care of. The 3rd Axiflow Fan that was trouble in removing needs to be worked on because the blade touches the housing (as I recall)..... I will consult Ted about it.
By the way, the doors open without the 600. They operate on the battery, try flipping that switch and door control, then try to open.
07/06/2000
BTW - If this is the last summer of the R-33 singles, could that up coming R-33S fantrip with the observation car be construed as a "farewell" trip?
Bill "Newkirk"
If that is so, can we have some photos of ten-car seven-line trains posted on nycsubway.org in due course, please?
Maybe I'm missing a page or two..
Why all this fuss about a 10-car 7 train?
The 2 line is 10-car also.. why don't we
throw a ticker tape parade for THEM?!?
It's for the R-33 singles, the last un-air conditioned cars (deliberately un-ACed, not like the R-32 GEs) left running on the New York City subway. Their departure will be (for better or worse) the end of a 96-year era on the system, though I'd been willing to be the reported siwtchover of the R-62s won't happen fast enough so that the R-33s and their axelflow fans won't have a few more runs to make this fall....
....as much as this mat drive some people on this board nuts :-)
Maybe I'm missing a page or two..
Why all this fuss about a 10-car 7 train?
The 2 line is 10-car also.. why don't we
throw a ticker tape parade for THEM?!?
Before the R-33WF go away it would be interesting to see a solid train of them operating (after the summer of course). I wouldn't be suprised if it happended.
Wayne
It almost happened a few years ago, but an RCI in Corona Yard notified RTO who said "NO WAY"!
I remember observing four R33WF cars in a consist one time. They were cars three to six in the consist. This happened around 1993 when the R36 cars were getting cosmetic jobs on them.
Since my daughter's boyfriend got on my little girl's case, I now can use her computer anytime I want. Since school ended I have not been on the line much because of that problem. I need to know from some soda fountain and egg cream fanatic where near the 86th Street Station is that old time candy store I've heard so much about, and what subway line crosses it. I will be in New York in five weeks and don't want to pass that place up. Any other such candy stores that anyone knows about would be appreciated by me. I'm hoping to get in touch with some of my railfan buddies as well. Good God, I felt empty not being on this line but once in the last ten days.
I was wondering if the R-142's are wheel chair acessible,if they are will they have special cars for the handicapped?Will the train operator and the conductor be involved in this?Thank You
Each of the cars will have some space for wheelchairs, probably similar to the PATH PA-4's where one end of the car has a seat-less area with extra grab irons.
However, there is still the small problem of getting to the platforms. The new cars, motormen, and conductors certainly have nothing to do with that.
Actually, only the cars at the ENDS of each unit will be accessible. Each unit will normally be five cars, so in a ten-car train, cars 1, 5, 6, and 10 will be accessible.
David
In over 20 years of riding the subway on a regular basis, I have never seen a wheelchair. Probably never will unless more of the stations are retrofitted.
I've seen one person at Cortland St heading to Brooklyn in a motorized chair a few times
Since Metra here in Chicago has made all of their trains accessible by putting one lift-equipped car in a fixed position on each train, you do occassionally see someone in a wheelchair using the lift. Just as often, however, I've seen people on crutches taking advantage of the lifts.
-- Ed Sachs
I once saw a beggar in a wheelchair, at Union Square, IIRC. After a while I guess he got tired of hanging around there, so he stood up, folded up the wheelchair, and walked upstairs.
Yes, some of the cars themselves are totaly wheelchair accessable...they are the ones that are marked with a red stripe on the exterior, and at least a couple of those cars are in each set. -Nick
"gone is the pointless arrow logo of the seventies" -PR
Amtrak's WebsiteAmtrak's Website (New Window)
"gone is the pointless arrow logo of the seventies" -PR
Amtrak's Website
Amtrak's Website (New Window)
It looks like an airline logo. They should have used more color.
Just thought of something that goes along the lines of an earlier post, re: Penn Station Departure Board:
So the logo has changed, do you think they
a)Thought about the possibility of a new logo, and can change it with ease, or
b) Will it ever be changed? This would also apply to the Solari "Flippy" signs?
Also, sorry for the double post. Not sure what happened there...
trhis really sucks, i like the old logo better. but at least for the next 30 years we're going to see mixed trains, some with the new logos some with the old....
I'm definitely not feeling the new logo!
Big D
I'm going to miss being able to use the joke that the new South African flag looks like the Amtrak logo.
PS: I wonder if there was any pressure by South Africa on this issue.
ANOTHER horrible logo, which you are going to have to squint to see on rolling stock...almost as bad as the MTA logo.
I actually *like* the new logo, both on an intellectual and aesthetic level. It evokes 2 *rails* appearing to *go somewhere*, which the old logo did not (or at least not as well). The new font is also an improvement -- it appears more strong and solid, and it evokes a sort of computer-tech feel, more of the 21st century. The old font looked like something out of a first grade school reading primer.
It's good that the company wants to give the impression that they are moving onward and upward. I'm glad they finally made the jump, graphically speaking, out of the 70's. (The old logo looks like they took the Penn Central logo, straightened it out, and bent the back ends outward.) Also, think back even further. For example, the PRR's keystone symbol. There was nothing grand size-wise about it, yet it did its job in a subtle fashion, residing on locomotives and rolling stock. I also have no problems with the Acela brand name and logo either. Amtrak is a unique animal, in that it constantly fights an uphill battle for survival in a country where the perception is that public transportation (except for that via the air) is for losers. I applaud Amtrak for making efforts to improve its image, and I think this step succeeds.
i was rummaging through some photos at a flea market when i came across this rare 1940's picture of sea beach fred riding the brighton express with a big smile on his face... he is carrying a fishing rod and has a bucket full of sea bass from a day's outing at sheepshead bay... this 8x10 original black and white picture is being offered to subtalkers before being put on ebay... it goes to the first person who sends me $900 in unmarked bills...
Should that be $900 in umarked Confederate bills?
(Not good in any MVM machine.)
sorry dan... this northerner accepts only union greenbacks...
heypaul, that sounds like such a rare commodity that I'll pay ya $1,000 for it!!!
Sea Beach Fred caught in the act!
LOL!!!!
Doug aka BMTman
Is Fred wearing a Dodger cap?:-)
Steve: That's all I wore as kid. To play, to school, to the ballfield, to religious instruction where the nuns told me to get that hat off of my head.
I'll bet you got to Ebbets field with the Brighton Express.
How else could have gotten there from Long Island City? What I liked about going to Ebbets Field when I was a kid was that we would be riding the subway and when we got to Prospect Park Station out of the tunnel we would come into God's bright sunshine. There was then a lot of plants and vines overhanging the station----a lot of greenery. It quickened the pulse and today it is one of my fondest memories of childhood. That and the Dodgers pounding on the Giants, Braves and Cardinals.
07/10/2000
[ What I liked about going to Ebbets Field when I was a kid was that we would be riding the subway and when we got to Prospect Park Station out of the tunnel we would come into God's bright sunshine. There was then a lot of plants and vines overhanging the station----a lot of greenery. It quickened the pulse and today it is one of my fondest memories of childhood]
YOU SEE !....FRED REALLY LOVES THE BRIGHTON LINE !!
Bill "Newkirk"
He'd make an excuse, though, that Prospect Park is in an open cut.
He only picks the Sea Beach because nobody else likes it, and it cuts thru Italian Neighborhoods mostly
I suppose you're right, but the Brighton serves all those 2-fare zone neighborhoods, such as Marine Park, Mill Basin, Flatlands, that are almost entirely Italian and Jewish.
Q Brightliner, just thought I'd post this more current breakdown of the neighborhoods you mentioned:
Marine Park = predominently Irish w/some Italian
Mill Basin (if you mean Old Mill Basin) = predominently Italian w/some Jewish, Blacks (mostly from the Carribean) and Irish
Flatlands = predominently Black (from the Carribean) w/some Jewish and Italian
If he means Mill Island, then the asessment is correct.
For those not familiar with this particular area of Brooklyn: "Thee" Mill Basin differs from "Old" Mill Basin in that it is the neighborhood that "horse-shoes" around the Kings Plaza & Marina area (look on a map). It has some VERY exclusive real estate in there and is definitely Italian (with a small Jewish presence). Most of the homes there have moorings in the "backyards" for boats. In alot of ways the area is similar to the Hewlett Harbor area of Long Island.
Old Mill Basin is the area sandwiched between Flatlands and Georgetown neighborhoods and was highlighted in the press recently when NYCT tried to lie about diesel fuel not being in the soil of the area around the Flatbush Depot.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: When I referred to Mill Basin I meant the horseshoe. I included the "Old Mill Basin" is what I referred to as Flatlands. Thanks for the update. It's been 22 years but I did visit the Mill Basin. It's a shame that the some of the old houses have been razed and gaudy two and three story giants put in their place. Like showing off who is biggest.
When did you see the neighborhood before? I'm very interested in it's history, however I have found no comprehensive resources.
Pigs: I lived there from the age of 10 (1961) until I left for college and graduate studies, but still visited my parents regularly through 1978 and after my expatriation, sparingly through 1985. My last visit was two months ago. I'm not sure that this is the appropriate place to tell everything I now about "the basin" but let me have specific questions and I'll try to answer.
--Harry
One thing that really intrigues me is the little bay in front of the Bergen Beach Yacht Club between 56th Drive and Indiana Place. I remember seeing a map which showed the bay filled in, with Whitman, Arkansas and National Drives through-routed and then new streets between National and Arkansas. I remember a California Place and Arizona Place. I believe the landfill never occured as they left it off for two long and developers wanted more waterfront property at the cost of more property period. In fact, National Drive is numbered as if the numbers continue through the gap (the others use sequential on the northeast side and 2700 series on the southwest).
Do you know anything about that?
What's that huge abandoned warehouse building with the huge lot facing it on Mill Avenue between U and Strickland.
Was Mayfair Drive really called McMullen Drive? When was the change. When did Island Avenue become Veterans Avenue (not really Mill Basin, but close enough).
What was it like before Kings Plaza? How wide was Flatbush then?
Yes Mayfair was McMullen until about 1961 when we first moved there. Island Avenue became Veterans Avenue shortly thereafter, I think around 1962-3. The warehouse that I think you are referring to was a steel mill. Mill Av. in 1961 was a dirt road fill of big potholes (even by New York standards). Lindower Park was an open sandlot where my friends and I would play touch football and softball almost every afternoon. It was made a park around 1970-1. I also vaguely remember the California Place and Arizona Place. There also used to be oil storage tanks in the area of Strickland that now faces Kings Plaza. There was a fire there around 1963 during which we had to stand by for evacuation of the whole neighborhood.
The only thing I can say with with some certainty is that there were plans in the early part of the 20th Century to turn what is today Floyd Bennett Field/Gateway National Recreation area of Jamacia Bay into a deep-water port with rail connections a la Port Elizabeth. This of course never came to pass, but I have seen a proposed map of the freight trackage. It was planned as a spur from the Bay Ridge line that would've branched off by Utica and Glenwood Road, and ran down Bergen Ave. (then Paerdegat Ave. South) to Ave. U then running along Avenue U to the corner of Flatbush (today's Kings Plaza Shopping Center) and going down Flatbush to the Floyd Bennett area. There the single track branched off into many spurs running up to several piers facing the bay-side of the land.
If that proposal had gone through, the entire history of the transmodal and freight industry in the Northeast would have been re-written!
One of these days I'll have to dig that thing out and get it scanned.
Doug aka BMTman
...and ran down Bergen Ave. (then Paerdegat Ave. South)
THANK YOU! I've always wondered what that little stubby road was once part of. Did it ever go through the Glenwood Houses as I suspect? Was Bergen Avenue ever through routed between Avenue K and Ralph Avenue and then demapped because there was no reason to pave it back then? Would there be remains if I go a searchin'?
Yes, Paerdegat Ave. South did continue north till it intersected with Farragut & Albany Ave. (you can see a remnant of this angling street next to the Wonder Bread outlet on that block).
Doug aka BMTman
It must have curved very sharply as it would only get as far as 56th at Farragut Road if it didn't change course.
I remember back in the 50s, Flatbush Ave was either 2 or 3 lanes from Ave U to the Marine Park Bridge, there were some turnouts or sideings, some resturaunts, bait shops, a small marina. Of Course Floyd Bennett Field was still in use. Where Kings Plaza is was the dump. or as they say these days. Land Fill. I don t remember what was on the West Side and South Side of Ave U was. The B 41 Trolley and then Bus and the B 2, terminated in a loop North of Ave U. The Q 35 still ran to B116th, There was a Bus that ran down Flatbush Ave named I think B42 Marine Pkw, from Ave U to the Bridge. I think it ran summers only. The B46 ran only to Ave N. Remember this was 45-50 years ago and I was a kid then.
"Most of the homes there have moorings in the "backyards" for boats."
That answers only for East 66th Street starting at Ohio Walk, then down Whitman Drive, Bassett Avenue, Arkansas Drive, National Drive, Indiana Place, Whitman Drive, East 66th Street (again), 56th Drive and then over to National Drive again. That doesn't explain the other side of each of these streets, the inland sections of them (which all of them except for National Drive posses), and all of the remaining streets. How do you define "most?"
I certainly don't have moorings in my backyards for boats, neither do any of my neighbors.
The homes on the "outer rim" of the horse shoe, that's what I meant.
Since you live near there I assume you'd be an expert on Mill Basin (as you are with everything else).
Doug aka BMTman
as you are with everything else
Your insulting, sarcastic comments solve nothing.
You were talking about Mill Basin being in the horseshoe.
Either you said that only the outer rim is Mill Basin, or you said that all of it was, but that the outer rim consisted of the majority.
Either way, you're wrong.
The Area south of Avenue U in the 60's is Mill Basin as opposed to "Old Mill Basin" which is more north, as far as I recall.
Now, as for my statement the about majority of the homes having berths in the rear -- I believe a good many of them can be seen from Flatbush Avenue South (as you head toward Nick's Lobster House and Toys 'R Us) with just such setups. Please correct me if I am wrong here, as you claim I am in my last post.
I do apologize for my faceious statement "as you are with everything else". I was only making a snide reference to your reknown ability at SubTalk for correcting everyone on even the most minute details in a discussion.
Doug aka BMTman
OK guys, may I step in as peacemaker? I went through this a couple of times and it ruins everything. We're all here to have fun and learn from each other. I venture to say that I have improved my knowledge of the NYC Subway 100% since I got online with you guys.
I don't think there was a war to begin with.
I Remeber when Mill Basin was nothing, and Kings Plaza was a land refill Garbarge Dump/ Pigs this was in the late 40s and 50s.
The garbage dump was on White Island, behind what is now the Marine Park Golf Course.
Where is the Marine Park Golf Course?
On the west side of Flatbush south of Avenue V.
There are many of those homes, however it is not MOST.
I do apologize for my faceious statement "as you are with everything else". I was only making a snide reference to your reknown ability at SubTalk for correcting everyone on even the most minute details in a discussion.
Yes, I know about that.
I have to try to cut down.
Pigs don t try, DO IT. Trying too much will only give you Hemoriods
Forty Five years ago the southern terminus of the B-13 bus was "Old Mill" or "Mill Basin" or something like that, I was not a bus fan, so I never rode to the end of the line.
Would this be the same neighborhood that you are talking about?
I never heard of the B-13. Maybe you mean the B-3. It terminated in the '60s and '70s (still today?) in Bergen Beach, near Av. U and East 74th St. AFAIK, Bergen Beach is still Brighton Line country.
I did mean the B-13!
I received an Email telling me that the area is known today as Spring Creek, so I guess that I must be talking about a different part of Brooklyn.
Spring Creek would be over toward Canarsie. That is no longer Brighton line territory.
I have only one question. Is Sheepshead Bay still Jewish, and is Canarsie still Italian? I haven't been to either place since 1954.
hey fred... i don't think sheepshead bay was predominantly jewish even in the 50's... maybe the apartment houses on ocean ave had a large number of jewish people, but the private homes on the side streets were mostly italian families... as for now, there is a much wider mix of people... there is a large number of russian families living in the area... for example, my apartment building which was built as a coop back in 1954 and was almost 100% jewish then, now has many russian families... many of the older apartment buildings on ocean avenue have large numbers of russian families... on the side streets, there is a large number of chinese and korean families... some people have called the brighton express the "orient express"... there is a large city housing project down around nostrand avenue that has gone from predominantly white in the 50's to mostly african american now... sheepshead bay is still considered a special area due to its fishing fleet on emmons avenue and presence of lundys restaurant, its generally well maintained apartment and private houses, and generally peaceful relations between a wide mix of people...
Heypaul: Thanks! Now if you can tell me how to get to Lundy's I'll be in your service. A love seafood and heard they just reopened.
lundys... i think you're going to be in coney island... if you're in a car, you can pick up neptune avenue and take that all the way east to lundys... if you're using the bus, pick up the b-36 that stops right near nathans and take that heading to ave u... you'll get off the bus right where it turns at sheepshead bay road off of emmons ave, which is the continuation of neptune ave...
if you go by subway, take the d to sheepshead bay road and walk to emmons and ocean... if you want to walk, it's about 2 or 3 miles from nathans... walk all the way down the boardwalk to brighton beach and then pick up coney island ave. take that to neptune, and head east to ocean ave...
Yep, you will have to take the Brighton, with a day pass, you might as well as Paul Said, take the B36 infront of Nathans.
Fred E Mail me by Sunday, I lost your e mail again.
Good bus directions, bad car directions.
Most trips there should use the Belt Parkway.
FROM POINTS WEST:
Use Exit 8: Coney Island Avenue which leads onto Guider Avenue. Turn right onto East 12th Street, then left onto Neptune.
FROM POINTS EAST:
Use Exit 9: Knapp Street. Turn left onto Knapp Street, then right onto Emmons Avenue.
FROM FLATBUSH AND VICINITY:
Use Ocean Avenue southbound.
Fred will not be driving
I wouldn't have bothered, except that heypaul put in driving directions that are not all accurate.
He could be taking a cab.
Fred will take a bus or subway. He is not inclined to take a cab when there is a subway within a mile
Hey Fred, I currently reside in Canarise, so I can tell you quite a bit about recent things there.
In the past 10-15 years large numbers of black families have moved into Canarise. All of those racial problems seemed to have ended about 15 or 20 years or so ago. So much so, that the area is now predominantly black, with the next largest group being Jewish and the smallest is Italian (most of them moved out to LI or Staten Isle -- or otherwised retired to Arizona/Florida).
It's interesting to note that even though the neighborhood's complexion has changed, the "small-town" feel of Canarsie is still there. Neighbors greet each other and kids play on the stoops and in the streets.
Doug aka BMTman
And all the groups of people get along. That's nice to know. I have to visit Sheepshead Bay and Canarsie when I get to New York next month. Thanks for the info.
It still could be Brighton Line Country since the B 6 and the Kings Hwy Bus (82 or 83 ) runs there.
Not quite.
The B82 turns down Pennsylvania Avenue (who the hell was Granville Payne?) and ends at Seaview Avenue. The area between there and Fountain Avenue is barren.
The B6 comes closest at Cozine Avenue and Ashford Street, the same barreness applies.
Earlier you asked about Flatbush Av before Kings Plaza. Let me tell you about Pennsylvania Av before Starett City. Although I was just a kid I remember my parents taking us to relatives in Bklyn (from L.I.) and getting off at Pennsylvania if the Belt was bumper to bumper and taking Flatlands to Flatbush. Pennsylvania between the Belt and Flatlands was probably the bumpiest street in the world seasoned with alot of potholes. If I remember correctly it was only 2 lanes, undivided of course, with nothing but empty garbage strewn lots. The only business at all on that stretch was a small Carvell on the W/S of the street. We always stopped for ice cream there. It was nothing like it is today. On the south side of Flatlands just W/O Pennsylvania there was a bowling alley there. I don't think there was an entrance to the garbage dump at the end of Penn. by the Belt in those days. (I might be wrong, I was a little kid, no ageism intended) I think if you went under the underpass of the Belt you had to get on the E/B side. In other words Pennsylvania became the entrance. As far as your original question about Flatbush before Kings Plaza, I really can't remember although I used it many times.
East 66th is my favorite street for exactly the reason you mentioned, it has a mooring side and an inland side, and a concentration of beautiful, well-kept homes.
East 66th has a mooring side only between Ohio Walk and Whitman Drive and between Dakota Place and 56th Drive. Most of the latter is occupied by the Bergen Beach Yacht Club and the last couple of houses before 56th are actually facing the side of the lowest numbered waterfront house on 56th.
Now the KING of waterfront is National Drive, with one waterfront side everywhere. However it is also the king of the huge house that you denounced in another post. I like them however, each of them are unique and they qualify for a walking tour. The fact that there are unique buildings makes it a candidate for historic district status when they acquire the patina of age.
Thats now, we were talking 60 years ago
No, we were not.
Those are two good reasons. I agree. But I think there are a lot of closet Sea Beach fans just waiting to come out.
But don't you dare tell that to Bob. He would never let me live it down. Next to the Sea Beach, the Brighton was a close second.
I already knew that. My 2nd favorite line was the West End because of the el, 3rd the 7 to Flushing
Fred, I am just too young, and barely missed watching the Dodgers play in Brooklyn, but I can well imagine your enthusiasm. I also barely missed the Triplexes, and thus I am not a #1 D-Type but a Q Brightliner (R32). Like you, and regardless of the hundreds of times I've ridden, coming into the light at Prospect Park was always a great feeling.
I just barely missed the Triplexes as well before they left the scene for good. We were in the city during their final week of service in 1965, and even we rode on the BMT for two days, I didn't see them. We left for home on their last day of operation.
There you go Q. I knew it. I'll bet many get that feeling when they enter Prospect Park Station. The bummer comes when I get off and head toward non=existent Ebbets Field and see those damn ugly apartments and ask kids if they know what used to be here and they haven't a clue. Even though we have the Dodgers here now, and they followed me out here four years after I left, I have no feeling for them whatsoever. Maybe some day, but I doubt it. Prospect Park Station in the late 40's and 50's was even a bigger thrill than Coney Island.
And The Yankees Beating up on the Dodgers in 41,47,49,52,53,56. 6 out of 7 wasn t bad, and Robinson was out at home, Yogi still claims today
Duke Snider remembers that when he played with the Mets in 1963, Casey Stengel would always talk about his Yankees would beat the Dodgers in the World Series. When Duke would bring up 1955, Casey would say, "We'll talk about that later."
Billy Martin always said Yankee Stadium, with its Death Valley in left center, beat the Dodgers more than anything else. As he put it, "They'd come in with all those righthanded power hitters, and they'd hit the ball nine miles for outs." He also felt Joe DiMaggio would have hit 80 home runs a year if he had played anywhere else; Joe hit into a lot of 430-foot outs.
If Fred would want to see the Dodgers playing in New York now, it is fitting that he would have to take the Brighton local to get there. Before they and he left for L.A. he took the express.
When I did go so see the Dodgers play in New York, I took the #7 train to Shea Stadium and watched the Mets beat them on a Friday evening.
Do you go when the Mets are O Malley Stadium at Chazev Ravine?
Oh yes!! I went to two games, and the one of them I had those dugout seats where I got served and wined and dined. The tickets were given to me by a friend and it was a hell of an evening. My wife, daughter, her boyfriend Sam, and I had a blast. The biggest blast came from Mr. Pratt who hit a grandslam homer to win it for the Mets. You know Tim Robbins, the actor? He was there. I didn't recognize him but he was rooting as hard for the Mets as I was.
Oops....I should have been more specific. The Yankees and Dodgers can now meet, theoretically, in inter-league play, so the Dodgers might come to Yankee Stadium and if they did, well the D Brighton local goes up there. But hey, Fred, I'm with you, when the Mets and Yankees play I root for the Mets. But I am an Orioles fan, always have been. I used to like taking the D Brighton Express in the late 60s and early 70s all the way to Yankee Stadium to see the Orioles beat the Yankees, which they did with consistency in those days. Seems that New Yorkers still haven't forgotten.
Hey, remember 1969? I do. Who would have thought the Mets would take the World Series from the Orioles, Frank and Brooks Robinson et al? Of course, Agee's two circus catches in Game 3 and Swoboda's diving grab in Game 4 didn't hurt.
I certainly didn't think the Mets could win the series but they did and deservedly so. Anyway, the Orioles won it all the following year. 1969 was very special: first man on the moon, Woodstock, debut of the R42s, and of course my graduating and getting out of that jail otherwise known as BTHS.
Let's hope it happens again and soon. Remember the years 1965-1975, and 1982-1985, it was heaven for baseball. You know what I mean.
What the hell does Yogi know. He has an arduous time even speaking credible English. I notice you never mention 1963 when your Yankees got their asses kicked four straight by the Dodgers. I pretended they were still Brooklyn and it was probably the only time I rooted for the LA version. But it was sweet to see the lordly Yanks get the hell knocked out of them.
I was also in LA at the time, Now the crybaby Mets, complaining that Clemmons threw at Pizza Man Mike, why should he. Clemmons is cool. Look at how many Cy Youngs he won even though none were with the Yanks. Pizza Mike is just interested in the money.
Clemens, Piazza, and whoever else. My grandfather (a WWI veteran) used to say that big strong boys like that should be in the army.
The reason the gutless Cleamens threw at Piazza is that Mike has eaten him up alive in the past. The pitch was a beanball, make no mistake about it. One of these days, Roger the rat will field a bunt down the first base line and someone will send him sprawling into the dirt with a separated shoulder. That was a gutless and pathetic act on your pitcher's part, and don't give me any crap that it was an accident because it wasn't.
The Yanks are in the American League, the pitcher never hits. By the way. When you are at Nathans, head up toward the boardwalk,on Stillwell, turn left on the boardwalk, 2nd store on left. The best place for Brooklyn T Shirts, even if you are from QUEENS.
[The Yanks are in the American League, the pitcher never hits.]
Except in interleague games in the National League stadium.
Well, Yogi knows it ain't over until it's over.:-)
Makes you wonder what Leo the Lip would have said about Clemens beaning Piazza.
The trouble with the ball players today are, they are over priced cry babies. Leo, would have said good for Clemonns. Brush back Pitches are part of the game, but no a days, the hitter gets upset. If you crowd the plate, be prepared to get pitched inside.
Well, I can understand taking your hat/cap off in church. We were taught that, too. I wonder if any of those nuns were Dodger fans beneath those habits.:-)
I don't know about the nuns, but there were three priests at our Parish, St. Rits's in Long Island City where I lived most of my 14 years in New York. The quiet Father Russo was an easy going likeable person, but he was a Yankee fan and I wanted nothing to do with him. Father Pretano was a loud, aggressive person but he was a diehard Dodger fan and I loved him. The head guy was Father Parazza, and we never knew who he rooted for. I don't think he knew a baseball from ping pong ball.
Find me a picture of Brighton Beach Bob riding on the Sea Beach or Pigs on a school bus-I'll pay!!!
"...or Pigs on a school bus"
I've been on school busses, that's why I hate 'em.
Although I doubt I've ever been photographed aboard one.
You sure it wasn't one of the Franklin/Nassau specials?
I'm getting queer looks from the staff in this office this AM. Your posts are very bad for my reputation :-)
Mr t
Hey Paul: Congrats! I'm laughing so hard my sides hurt. That was great imagination on your part. If I get panned this way, I don't mind at all. If the story wasn't so bogus, I'd buy that damned photo. BTW, I tried a little pier fishing today and didn't catch a damn thing, so I must have been a better fisherman when I was nine. Nice going. I'm sure Bob loved it too.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I like the bogus story that you're in a phtot riding the Brighton Line in the 1940s. Makes for some interesting reading.
BMTJeff
hey jeff... what do you mean bogus story?... this is a genuine photograph... on the back of the photo he wrote:
" i caught 5 codfish today.i sure wish i lived on the brighton line. it would be great to have a real 4 track railroad to ride on, as well as the world renowned franklin shuttle. i would give anything to be #1 "
i am sure fred will authenticate this photo... and that will have nothing to do with my splitting the final sale price with him ( of course, after i deduct some administrative and advertising expenses)
Heypaul: Occasional readers of this site might be forgiven if they come to the conclusin that the BMT had only two lines. Why is it that we never hear from #3 West End Wally or #5 Culver Charlie? There at least one contributor who could qualify for the # 11 , I refer of course to our friend Karl B,aka Mr Lexington Avenue El. Doug of course has a lock (or the locks) on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
That still leaves about nine numbers open. Lets hear from #6 Fifth Avenue Fanny or #8 Astoria Al. How about #16 Canarsie Clancy or #14 Broadway Bertha.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It's very simple Larry. Those other guys do not share the passion or enthusiam for their lines as we Sea Beachers and those Brighton boys do. We love our subway lines and we don;t mind bragging about it and boasting of our handles. Maybe there isn't a West End Wally or a Lexington Len. Ever thought of that?
Well, Chris R16 could almost put a #15 in front of his handle.
Would That Be Jamaica Local Joe. Lets face it, the Brighton is the most diverse line in the BMT Southern Div. El, Embankment, cut with 2 types of tunnels, subway, a bridge, both Local and Express outside, whatelse compares?
I feel the same way about the Brighton line. It certainly is distinctive in its diversity of construction. As I've said before, the Southern Division as a whole ranks up there in my book, even though the A line still gets the nod as being my personal favorite.
Now you're getting me to believe that such a photo exists. There is only one Sea Beach Fred and that's me. Those other guys are frauds. But if such a photo really exists, you must get ahold of me. I want that photo----but I know you're not serious.
07/08/2000
[Now you're getting me to believe that such a photo exists. There is only one Sea Beach Fred and that's me. Those other guys are frauds. But if such a photo really exists, you must get ahold of me. I want that photo----but I know you're not serious.]
Fred,
Heypaul showed me that photo, that is you and not imposter. You are wearing a tee shirt with a scrawled message on the front saying "I hate the Sea Beach"!
Heypaul and I wouldn't lie would we?
Bill "Newkirk"
"Heypaul and I wouldn't lie would we"?
Well since I'm led to believe you're great Clinton supporters, then yes you guys would lie your asses off. But just on the remote possibility that the photo really exists, you can call me at home. I shouldn't do this because I could get some crank calls, but 626-446-3048 will get you in touch with me. Let me know how much that photo costs. If it exists I would like to have it----that is, if the price isn't through the roof.
You're listed in the phone book. If anybody wanted to crank call you, they could have done so already.
[I shouldn't do this because I could get some crank calls, but 626-446-3048 will get you in touch with me. Let me know how much that photo costs. If it exists I would like to have it----that is, if the price isn't through the roof.]
Say Fred, are you certain that's your phone number?
I gave it a try and got some woman on the other end (with a sultry voice) who asked me what I was wearing, and then proceeded to describe to me what little she had on at the time. It was quite embarrassing! It was obviously a wrong number when she told me the call was going to cost me $19.95 for the first 5 minutes! (I immediately hung up, of course).
I'll have to make sure I'm dialing correctly (I thought ALL of LA was 213. I guess times change, huh?).
Doug aka BMTman
Not 213, 626, and if a woman answers on the other end of the line she will have a nice sweet pleasant voice that matches her personality. It might make you wonder why that seemingly classy lady got stuck with a Sea Beach mug like me.
07/09/2000
[Well since I'm led to believe you're great Clinton supporters, then yes you guys would lie your asses off]
Fred,
I can't speak for heypaul, but I am not a Clinton supporter and goes for the both of them!
Bill "Newkirk"
Then I have to believe you're telling the truth. Tell Heypaul to give me a jingle---that is, if the story is on the up and up.
actually the photo was purchased by doug for $1000... he took it to the appraisers on the antique roadshow, and discovered that i had misidentified the photo... the appraiser claimed that it was really a picture of brighton beach bob... i didn't notice that the young person in the picture was wearing a madison high school tee shirt with a picture of coach artie wunderlich on the front... doug is demanding his money back as the appraiser valued the photo for only $80... it seems like there has been a glut of artie wunderlich shirts on the market... i will try to be more careful authenticating my photos in the future... i am currently trying to verify a picture of a young farmer pulling his plow with an old look gm bus... the man's face seems a dead ringer for thurston, but i am trying to verify this in the archives of connecticut farmer magazine...
You got me. You succeeded in pulling a sandbag over me. I thought it was bogus at first, but you were able to fool me. Shame on me for falling for it. I will know better next time. But your first post was worth the sandbagging. I really was laughing my pants off.
Hey Paul, I was wearing my Madison T Shirt this morning, and come to think of it Coach Wunderlich does look like James Madison. No wonder why he stayed so long.
This Swamp Yankee doesn't look anything a guy from Brooklyn, i.e. no straw hat, corn cob pipe, or bib overalls
Mr t
No torn briches and bear feet with a fishing pole and a red scarf either?
No that guy is from down South and whistles a lot ;-)
I do very much like GOING HOME for a country fair on Labor Day. My job is to cut the meat for the hero sandwiches for my Aunt who gathers a group in the kitchen of the Grange Hall. There are still a lot of folks who I'm related to who work at that fair. So it's kind of a reunion. Unfortunately my cousin Al who was the beer man for many years doesn't work that booth anymore :-(
My CITY kids have met up close and personal: chickens, geese, pigs, goats, rabbits, horses, cattle, etc. My daughter got up set when I went over to the cow wash area to clean the cow flops off my grandson. If you haven't seen what it takes to get the cattle to pull a stone sled visit one of these fairs this summer, i.e. the drivers have a unique vocabulary & even get their shoulders into it if the wip doesn't motivate them.
Does anyone know what a "thank you maam" is. It relates to transit althought not recently.
BTW, it occurs to me that Heypaul would look right a home on a John Deer pulling a hey ride & telling the kids scary stories about his adventures in the New York City underground.
Mr t__:^)
thurston... not a bad idea... but get me a mack bus, and hitch up a bail of hay to the back of it,and i'll give the kids a scary ride without saying a word :-)
[... hitch up a bail of hay to the back ...]
Would that be a round or rectangular one
Mr t
hey thurston... what do i know about hay rides?... i assume that a bunch of people sit on a pile a hay and it gets dragged across the field... i guess it would have to be rectangular, although a round one might be a lot more challenging to stay on... :-)
Show s how worldly Hey Paul is by living his whole live on Ocean Ave and Ave W in Brooklyn.
I'm a city boy born and bred, and even I know what a hayride is. In heypaul's case, we would fill the Mack with hay and have heypaul drive and scare the kiddies!
SEPTA is advertising a 2-pronged GO this weekend. The first is the bussing of the Frankford El north of Spring Garden for installation of ATC equipment and station work (Berks, Huntingdon, Church). Two bus shuttles will provide service, one local and one from Center City express to Frankford Terminal.
The other is on subway-surface Route 34 where track renewal has resulted in single track operation on Baltimore Ave from the subway portal to 49th St. To allow special work replacement at 42nd, 34 cars will follow Woodland Ave (11, 36 route) to 49th and 49th to Baltimore, using non-revenue trackage on 49th St in both directions.
Re: the subject...
Not today! I had to use that station twice! (Dinner "meeting" at Sammy's Roumanian...)
-Dave
actually what's this about low patronage when i visited new york last i used the bowery station and i'm 6'8"! so what's this about low?
How was the flank steak? :o>
Seriously, have they made any progress there with the archaeological restoration? Some of the wall tile isn't half bad, some of it's as bad as Chambers.
wayne
If you take a ride to the station, you'll notice they're doing tile work on the wall of the northbound middle track. The contractors set up a temporary storage facility for equipment at the north end of the station. As far as I'm concerned, the station isn't as desolate as it once was. I guess the TA noticed that and decided to perform a little fix up of the station.
Yes, but they do have quite a water leak in that general area (north end of the station on the Jamaica-bound side). Some of the tile has fallen as well. Perhaps they have the situation in hand. It's a slow leak in a water main, not an underground water source like at Chambers.
wayne
Is DEP footing the repair bill?
They are currently working at the south end of the station. There are areas indicating loose tiles on the walls down toward the north end.
Sammys?? Wow, that place looks downright scary from the outside.
I've never ventured in. What is it like>
Well, it is kind of a hole. It's supposed to be known for it's lower east side-type Jewish kosher steakhouse. The food was okay - with what I suppose were traditional Jewish/kosher side dishes and stuff (although I never saw a place with a small pitcher of chicken fat on the table)... But for that kind of money and the desire to eat some red meat, I'd have preferred Keen's in midtown.
Sammy's is KOSHER? As in, under supervision, or is it
kosher-style?
Oh. Well. Not being Jewish I don't really know. Kosher-style I guess.
-Dave
I love that term "Kosher-style"; it's kind of like being slightly pregnant.
There are ETHNIC "styles", but the term "Kosher" is a term that roughly means "In accordance with Jewish Law". It is series of dietary restrictions and preparation specifications.
When people say "Kosher-style", I think they lump together all food that came out of Eastern European ethnic traditions, which may or not be Kosher.
Anyway, this is off-topic. How 'bout them Rusting Redbirds?
[I love that term "Kosher-style"; it's kind of like being slightly pregnant.
There are ETHNIC "styles", but the term "Kosher" is a term that roughly means "In accordance with Jewish Law". It is series of dietary restrictions and preparation specifications.
When people say "Kosher-style", I think they lump together all food that came out of Eastern European ethnic traditions, which may or not be Kosher.]
I believe there are degrees of "Kosherness." I've worked with a few people who will not patronize "normal" Kosher restaurants, and only would go to those which were, for lack of a better term, more strictly Kosher (there was a special name for those, I can't remember it).
I believe the term you're looking for is "Glatt Kosher". Hassidim and other Ultra-Orthodox Jews will only eat there.
"Glatt Kosher" is a reference to a kosher restaurant that serves meat (to the exclusion of dairy products). "Dairy Kosher" serves dairy products (to the exclusion of meat). Ratner's, my favorite restaurant on the Lower East Side, is dairy kosher.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glatt Kosher also refers to more strict Kosher restrictions.
The term comes from the time when the inspectors would check for TB in the animal's lungs. If the disease was there, they would declare the meat non-kosher. If evidence of the disease was found, but it was gone by the time the animal was killed, then the animal would be simply kosher, however, if the lungs were clean then it would be Glot Kosher.
OK, thanks for the clarification... since we are Reform and don't maintain a strictly kosher household I guess I hadn't concerned myself with that distinction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not anymore!!! Ratner's is under new ownership and has
decided to drop kosher certification.
That's not kosher! (Sorry about the awful pun)...
I ate there a couple of times; very good food.
Wayne
Jeff, thanks for letting me know... I normally make a point of eating kosher when I am in the City (or travelling elsewhere) since I do wish to avoid the mixing of meat and dairy products, even though I don't get concerned about using the same set of dishes or about the certification of my steak. Guess I'll have to find another place to eat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Second Avenue Deli is the best. It's on 2nd Ave. (of course) at 10th St. And it's certified Kosher (meat). The one problem some might have is that it is open on Friday night and Saturday, but otherwise it meets all specifications, as far as I know.
Thanks. I'll be in the City - with family, not subfanning :-( - either this weekend or next, we'll probably stop there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you happen to know who certifies it kosher? It used to be under reliable supervision but that changed about, oh, ten years ago. I'd love to discover that I can eat there again. (Most agencies won't certify a restaurant that's open on the Sabbath, particularly if it's Jewish-owned (I don't know if this one is) and particularly if it's in a city with lots of other kosher restaurants, so I'd be interested to learn who's still willing to do this. Jews aren't allowed to cook on the Sabbath, and any food cooked by or under the auspices of a Jew on the Sabbath is no longer kosher, even if it was when it was raw.)
Same ownership; the owners decided to cater to a different crowd.
The restaurant closed a few weeks ago for remodeling -- I ate there on its last night and walked out with a menu. When it reopens it will no longer be under kosher supervision.
There's always the Kosher pizza place at Ave. J and East 14 St. in Brooklyn.
There are lots of kosher pizza places, but I have a strong dislike for pizza. (I dislike both tomatoes and cheese.) Ratner's was the only kosher dairy restaurant that I know of with an emphasis on anything other than pizza. (Not that it should matter to me in East Central Illinois, where the nearest kosher restaurants of any sort are about 150 miles away.)
When I was a boy, there was the "Famous Dairy Restaurant" (yes, that was its name) on the NE corner of Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, right at the IRT station. That had everything. Who knows, maybe it's still there...
BTW I don't know who approves the 2nd Avenue Deli, just that friends of mine go there, who wouldn't if it weren't.
If 2nd Avenue Deli is open on Sabbath, then the food isn't Kosher - I would guess that it is open for the benefit of goyim like myself who enjoy the taste of authentic Kosher-style food, even if it isn't strictly Kosher. For us, it does not matter.
wayne
If 2nd Avenue Deli is open on Sabbath, then the food isn't Kosher - I would guess that it is open for the benefit of goyim like myself who enjoy the taste of authentic Kosher-style food, even if it isn't strictly Kosher. For us, it does not matter.
Let me clarify that - the food sold on Sabbath proper would not be Kosher, it most certainly would be during the rest of the week.
wayne
[I believe the term you're looking for is "Glatt Kosher". Hassidim and other Ultra-Orthodox Jews will only eat there.]
That's the term. Thanks.
Like anything else in Judaism, there are disagreements over a few details in the laws of kashrut. Glatt is one (which Sephardim actually consider the basic law and which some Ashkenazic communities have adopted as stringencies), regarding the status of the lungs of meat; in fact, so many communities have adopted this stringency of late that it's difficult to find reliably kosher meat in the U.S. that isn't glatt. ('Glatt kosher' is often informally used to mean 'strictly kosher' -- hence the inevitable "Glatt Kosher Pizza" signs, which don't make much sense.)
Then there's the question about how we really know if it's kosher. Sure, the sign in the window says it is. But who put that sign there, and is he an expert in the exceedingly complex body of law in the area of kashrut? And if the restaurant owner put the sign there, even if he does know all the laws cold, there's a conflict of interest -- he might be tempted to sweep a "minor issue" under the rug. That's why most people who keep strictly kosher will generally only eat at restaurants under supervision by an outside body of experts. The largest supervising agency in the U.S., based (naturally) in NYC, is the Orthodox Union ("the OU"), the same guys who approve packaged products stamped with their trademarked U-in-a-circle imprint. (The other three majors are Organized Kashrus Laboratories ("the OK"), with a K-in-a-circle imprint; the Kof-K, with a K-in-the-Hebrew-letter-Kof imprint; and the Star-K, with a K-in-a-star imprint. The OK and the Kof-K are based in Brooklyn, the Star-K, for a change, in Baltimore.) And there are dozens of smaller agencies scattered around the world. Some places are certified by individual rabbis rather than by agencies (and some "agencies" are nothing more than individual rabbis with trademarked logos). Some people are careful to eat only at restaurants certified by agencies they know are trustworthy (so if you're thinking of going into the kosher restaurant business, it might be worth paying the extra bucks to the OU rather than having your uncle the rabbi do the job for free -- or it might not; that's a business decision you'll have to make). And some communities will specifically avoid restaurants and products certified by particular agencies, either because they consider those agencies untrustworthy or because those communities have accepted stringencies that the agencies in question have not.
So there aren't really degrees of kosherness. There are slightly differing definitions of kashrut and there are issues of reliability of kashrut claims. (Incidentally, Jewish law has much to say about who is to be accepted as a witness in claims of kashrut and about what said witness must actually see before making such claims.)
>>> the term "Kosher" is a term that roughly means "In accordance with Jewish Law" <<<
Elliot;
I think when you add the word "roughly" you have just defined Kosher Style. Kosher is strictly in accordance with Jewish Law under the supervision of a rabbi.
In downtown Los Angeles there is a fast food stand named "Kosher Burrito" which BTW is owned by an Asian. It's signature dish is a burrito made with pastrami, pickles, onions, mustard, and a bean sauce, served with hot chiles on the side. In the late 70's or early 80's, they were required by local authorities to change their signs to read "Kosher Style Burrito" because since none of the food was in fact Kosher, it was considered false advertizing. Sometime in the early 90's they removed the "Style" from the signs, and no one has complained. Since they also serve eggs, ham and cheeseburgers, I doubt that any observant Jew could mistake it for a Kosher establishment.
Tom
[In downtown Los Angeles there is a fast food stand named "Kosher Burrito" which BTW is owned by an Asian.]
You can't get much more diverse than that!
In Maryland there was a case where the State tried to claim a restaurant was falsely advertising that it was Kosher, when it was not. The judge ruled that since being Kosher is following religion, then the State cannot make any decsions as to what constitutes "Kosher" because of the First Amendment freedom of religion. Of course, the restaurant may only be accepted as kosher by its owner, but that is his right.
I know that in NYC, if a store carries kosher and non-kosher products, they must have that plain-looking sign in the window. I guess that's different because the store owner, if asked, would say, "Sure, some stuff ain't kosher". If they just said, "Naah, it's all Kosher," then the City could do nothing about it, maybe.
I like New Jersey's approach, in response to a recent constitutional challenge. You want to call your restaurant or store kosher? Go right ahead -- but you have to answer a long list of questions and post the answers prominently. You serve pork but want to call your place kosher? Fine, just check the appropriate box, and anyone who doesn't want to eat pork will see the disclosure and walk out.
New York State does enforce kashrut, and it does so fairly strictly. I read in Kashrus Magazine a few years ago that a restaurant on the Upper West Side that advertises itself as kosher was fined a hefty sum (six digits, IIRC) for serving non-kosher food as kosher.
But for that kind of money and the desire to eat some red meat, I'd have preferred Keen's in midtown.
You might try Peter Lugers located at the Driggs Ave Station of the Broadway Brooklyn El.
Driggs Ave. Station?
You mean Marcy Ave.
-Dave
I think he was referring to the OLD Driggs Ave. stop pre-1916, before the el was rebuilt for subways.
Just remember before you go there, Peter Luger's is probably one of the only restaurants left that doesn't accept credit cards!!! (except their own Peter Luger card) Also in case you don't know the other branch is on Northern Blvd in Great Neck right by Leonards on the N20 lne.
[Just remember before you go there, Peter Luger's is probably one of the only restaurants left that doesn't accept credit cards!!! (except their own Peter Luger card) Also in case you don't know the other branch is on Northern Blvd in Great Neck right by Leonards on the N20 lne.]
I wonder why ... sure, they'd have to pay fees to the card issuers, but that hasn't deterred almost any other business.
[Re: the subject...
Not today! I had to use that station twice! (Dinner "meeting" at Sammy's Roumanian...)]
You may be the start of a trend ... it's been noted that ridership at Bowery has been picking up in recent months. Don't expect to see it on the Top 10 list anytime soon, however :-)
I was on a Queens bound M train through Bowery a couple of weeks ago at about 6PM -- about a dozen people got on. That's about a dozen more than would have gotten on a few years back.
Chuck
Patronage at The Bowery is way up compared to recent years. And almost all of the new patronage is made up of Chinese-Americans, which shows that the growth of Chinatown continues unabated.
Also, the Lower East Side is becoming trendy, with nightclubs and stuff...
Also, the Lower East Side is becoming trendy, with nightclubs and stuff
The obituaries stated that Walter Mathau got is start in New York's Yiddish theatre. There were dozens of such theatres, nightclubs and restaurants. Where do you thing THEY were located?
I think they were mostly on 2nd Avenue in what we'd call the East Village.
There's has been occassional talk here about the Staten Island and other ferry lines in New York harbor. The City of New York actually operates two ferry lines. One is the famous Staten Island Ferry and the other is the Hart Island Ferry running between City Island and Hart Island. Hart Island is were Potter's Field is located. That is were the indigent dead are buried. The service is covered by the "MICHAEL COSGROVE,a 60 foot long ferry displacing 139 tons and built in 1961. The ferry operates more on "a demand " basis rather then a fixed schedule but they rarely get complaints from the customers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Interesting. Is there any more information available about this ferry? How does the boat compare to the SI Ferry boats? Do they carry vehicles on this service?
They can fit maybe 2 cars on the boat, and there is a small cabin. THe boat occasionally makes it to the SI Maintainence facility. It's tiny, even in comparison to the Austen and Noble.
-Hank
I have a cousin (by marriage) that works the Hart Island ferry. He was a deckhand on the Staten Island Ferrys for years before being "promoted" to deckhand on this ferry. He is taking the Captains exam as well.
? How does the boat compare to the SI Ferry boats? Do they carry vehicles on this service?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Micheal Cosgrove: 139 tns,60 feet long, can carry about four cars or a truck or two of dead folks.
Alice Austin and John A Noble 499 tns,207 feet long,about 1200 psgrs,no cars
Andrew J Barberi and Samuel I Newhouse, 3335 tons,300 feet long, 6000 psgrs,no cars
John F Kennedy,American Legion,The Gov Herbert H Lehman,2109 tons, 277 feet long, 3000 psgr,45 cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In 1981, I photographed a ferry named "Fordham" which looked like a very scaled-down versionof the old wood-bodied SI ferries, at the SI Ferry maintenance pier.
I believe this boat was used on the Hart island run before the Michael Cosgrove was built, and was kept as a backup boat. The "Fordham" as painted the same orange and blue as the big SI boats at the time; the Cosgrove was solid bright red when I saw it up at City Island around the same time.
There are photos and technical data of both boats, as I remember, in a book entitled "The Boats We Rode". I have it "somewhere" among the bookshelves.....
This morning at about 5:00 AM I saw a 5 car set of 142's at Jackson Ave, followed by a five car set of R-27's. One of the cars was 6113 if I'm not mistaken. Now I know the TA wants these trains in service, but they couldn't have been testing them that early in the morning on the mainline. I think they were being brought over from Pitkin Yard. Anyone have any details on this or the exact date that the 30 day test will begin?
R-27?? Do you mean R-127 or R-21/22? It couldn't be anything else, since the R-27 was scrapped a while back, and they are B division. The R-26, 28, 29, 33ML, 36 all run in married pairs, thus 5 cars is impossible, unless an R-21/22 was attached, and they'd stick out like sore thumbs (R-33WFs unlikely). I have seen one of the trains that follow the 142s (forgot what) and it was a 4 car train of R-26s.
[R-27?? Do you mean R-127 or R-21/22? It couldn't be anything else, since the R-27 was scrapped
a while back, and they are B division.] Also a R-27 (or any B division car) too wide to operate into an A-division station and many of the curves.
Wayne
No, they were not R-27's. They were R-142's and it did not stop at Jackson Ave. I've never seen R-27's with a Red Digital display on the front, and destinantion signs on the side or as bright as they were with the seats covered with brown paper.
I was referring to the train you said was following the 142s.
Jackson Av? I get a view of the station from my apartment window as I live near the station. I didn't think the cars would be running at that time of the morning. Unfortuantely, I was snoozing at the time the cars passed through. The train behind the R-142s was the protection train made up of R-26/28/29s, just there to make sure nothing goes wrong with the new kid on the block. If you saw a 5 car R-142 Train, then it must've been 6311-6315. 6301-6310 are together on the road, making simulated train stops. This evening I observed a historic view at Prospect Av: 3 generations of IRT Cars side by side with each other. Redbirds were on the southbound track, R-62s in the middle, and the R-142s were on the northbound track making a simulated train stop. I wish I had a camera for that moment!
-Stef
Shalt I, 1 South Ferry 9, suggest
parking a webcam at Stef's window
looking in the direction of the el?
1SF9
Hehehe. There's a first time for everything, my friend.....
-Stef
1. Will the M-7 be in married pairs or 3 car sets (like the M-6)?
2. Any museums planning on preserving an ACMU?
3. Why is the 4:20 P.M. out of North White Plains no longer a train of 4 ACMUs? Now, they deadhead by one minute before an 8 car train (half closed) of M-1s makes the run.
4. Anyone know of off-peak trains which are usually ACMUs?
5. When did they replace all the flipboards for the individual tracks at GCT with those digital ones (which can't even fit all the stops)?
6. I saw a 6 car train in GCT with only one FL-9 at the head, don't they require 2?
7. Do they close the track gates when any train departs or only when the ACMUs leave?
8. Why do whole trains of CDOT shoreliners make appearances on the Hudson or Harlem lines frequently, many times with a café car (unused)? Does this sometimes occur with the M-2,4,6?
9. Can you buy tickets for the Port Jervis or Pascack Valley lines at Grand Central?
10. Where can I get Mileposts West, other than on an inbound AM rush train on the Port Jervis or Pascack lines during the first week of the month?
11. Why are round trip ticket prices listed in the Pascack line schedule if they are invalid on all inbound trips?
9- No. Only at Hoboken.... 10- Good Question.... 11- Because they legally HAVE to...
11. What law is that and where can I find it. Are they also required by law to actually sell these invalid tickets if anyone is dumb enough to ask for them? Who would complain if they stopped publishing fares for invalid tickets?
I've heard that there is some talk of instituting off-peak service on the line. Then it would make some sense.
They planned on using passing sidings to allow for trains to travel in both directions.
5 - They started a few months ago on the lower level and its spreading
6 - I've seen that numerous times
7 - Since the doors are manual and they don;t want stupid idiots trying to jump on a moving train
8 - New Haven trains often have the 6100's or/and 6300's-6400's. Reason unknown. Sometimes they are mixed. Again reasons unknown.
I've seen NH electrics on Harlem line trains rarely, but you can NEVER have it the other way. Catenary pickups are necessary just before the train gets to Pehlem station
6-It was probably one of the FL-9's rebuilt with a 3000hp prime mover.
OK, so the Cannonball still exists departing Hunterspoint at 4:01 PM (Thursday). How many bilevel cars does this train use and how many engines does it use? Also, that train has Parlor car service. Now, I know that there really aren't any bilevel parlor cars yet. So why does it still cost so much more, for a reserved seat and a drink. Please tell this is not true and tell me what you really are getting with the new parlor car service.
Last summer it was 13 cars with 2 engines, one at each end. The parlor cars were the ones with the small counter at the end of the car, by the large luggage bins. There also are metal racks instead of seats in the middle of the lower level, don't know why. Does anyone know what the car #s for those cars are?
Last year I saw a Cannonball with 10 new cars (C3's) two engines (non dual mode) and they made double station stops opening each half of the train.
A few weeks ago there was an article stating that the MTA may arrange for the Yanks and Mets to take the subway between stadiums this Saturday;does anyone know if this has been confirmed or denied?
If it is true, wouldn't this trip be a great publicity run for the R142...if its ready? -Nick
The lack of a direct track connection between the #7 & #4 makes that idea a very long trip timewise.
The Wassaic extension to the Harlem line opens this Sunday. I guess to entice people to go to the new stations, there are now 4 direct trains each direction between GCT and Wassaic (formerly 2 to Dover Plains). One of these direct trains happens to be off-peak, the 3:46 to Wassaic, first discharge stop White Plains, followed by Goldens Bridge and all stops to Wassaic. There is also one weekend direct train, but I'm pretty sure that was there before.
Off-peak one-way fare to Wassaic is $9.50, not bad for a 2 hour ride.
This adds 5 miles to the Harlem line's total route distance(now 82), yet it still is in the middle compared to 88 (Waterbury) and 95 (Port Jervis); and 74 (Poughkeepsie) and 30 (Spring Valley).
Onward to Chatham!
Direct? Are they using dual mode locomotives?
Yep, they've had DMs since before Metro North. People used to complain a lot about the lack of direct trains, some people had to change trains twice (local stop before white plains, then electric to Brewster North, then shuttle to Dover Plains).
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
What would be the mileage if they extended the Hudson Line to Hudson,N.Y.? Would it be longer than the Port Jervis Line? Also realize that the Port Jervis Line mileage is actually, believe it or not, NOT from Hoboken, BUT reflective of the mileage from the old Erie terminal at Jersey City- just like for the longest time the mileposts on the old Pennsy main were actually the distance from Exchange Place NOT Penn Station!!!
[What would be the mileage if they extended the Hudson Line to Hudson,N.Y.? Would it be longer than the Port Jervis Line? Also realize that the Port Jervis Line mileage is actually, believe it or not, NOT from Hoboken, BUT reflective of the mileage from the old Erie terminal at Jersey City- just like for the longest time the mileposts on the old Pennsy main were actually the distance from Exchange Place NOT Penn Station!!!]
It's at least 30 miles from Poughkeepsie to Hudson driving via routes 9 and 9G. The rail line might be slightly more direct, but it almost certainly is more than the 21 miles needed to vault the Hudson Line into first place over the Port Jervis line (also going past the Waterbury Branch in the process).
In any event, while a Hudson Line extension to Rhinecliff has been proposed, I've never heard serious discussion of going all the way to Hudson. If Metro-North were to go as far as Hudson, they might as well keep going to Albany.
With regard to the mile measurements, it's worth noting that the LIRR counts miles not from Penn Station as might be expected, but from Long Island City.
I bet the Pennsy and LIRR quirks both have to do with some deft corporate arrangement that was made when the PRR built the whole Tunnel Extension project; with the PRR being only a 'lessor' of Penn Station, the tunnel trackage, Sunnyside, etc, from some separate corporation [something like the old BRT/ N.Y. Municipal Railway arrangement]. [The LIRR, being of course at the time a wholly-owned subsiderary of the Pennsy....] The whole electrified trackage leading up to and thru the tunnels being an entirely separate [corporately at least..]railroad. [ I JUST happened to have gotten "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson" out from the library again right now!]
Montauk Station is at milepost 115.1, so if you add on the distance from LIC to Penn Station, it's probably about 120 from Penn Station to Montauk
[Montauk Station is at milepost 115.1, so if you add on the distance from LIC to Penn Station, it's probably about 120 from Penn Station to Montauk]
I've long wondered whether the LIRR sells any monthly tickets from Montauk.
According to an LIRR Employees Timetable that I have, it is 3.7 from "New York" (which LIRR used as the Penn Station designation) to Harold. From Long Island City to Harold it is 1.8 miles.
Only 1.5 miles difference, so the total from Penn Station to Montauk comes to 116.6 miles.
Lou: Metro North Hudson Line mileage is based on the old route which followed Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The employee timetable shows Marble Hill at MP 9.8 and Spuyten Duyvil at MP 11.1. The actual distance between these two stations is 1416 feet.
Larry,RedbirdR33
On the AMTRAK Harrisburg Line there are some ghost miles around Lancaster where the alignment was redone in the early 1900's. I believe that mile 37 is about 1700 feet long.
What was the original routing? Did it pass up where the Putnum
used to diverge and come back thru the old rail yard where JFK HS
is now?
If you look on the MTA web site at the map showing the Marble Hill
station, it is in the wrong place http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/html/planning/stations/mhillmp.htm
(of course on the spuyten duyvil map both Johnson Ave and the Hudson line run thru the river....)
Bill
[Metro North Hudson Line mileage is based on the old route which followed Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The employee timetable shows Marble Hill at MP 9.8 and Spuyten Duyvil at MP 11.1. The actual distance between these two stations is 1416 feet.]
That's probably the shortest distance between two commuter rail stations anywhere in the NYC area.
Long Island City to Hunterspoint is shorter.
What would be the LONGEST distance between two stations? On the Port Jervis Line it is 10.5 mi between Harriman and Salisbury Mills/Cornwall, 9.7 between SM/C and Campbell Hall, 9.8 between Middletown and Otisville, and 13.4 between Otisville and Port Jervis. [Its 'only' 6.2 between Campbell Hall and Middletown....Also the average north of Harriman is just under 10 miles between stations]What are some of the distances like on the Montauk Branch?
Besides the fact that the PJ line is basically defacto NJT (ie it is Met N in name and funding only) the "Metro North" portion of the line only runs from Sufferen to Port Jervis and Metro North millage should be counted thusly. Same goes with the Spring Valley line (which is even more NJT than the PJ line. Are not there only 2 stations in NY state?)
The SV line has 3 stations in NY, last I checked they didn't even have MN style station signs or those trapezoid info centers (the PJ line does).
I saw an article in the Times a couple of years ago concerning a proposed station even further north of Wassaic. Does anyone have any info regarding this ?
we are currently about 20 posts away from message number 135000... from my studies of numerology and etherology, i must issue a warp in webspace warning about that post... it is likely that a sink hole will develop at the post, perhaps engulfing the post and the poster... since i know several of my enemies take delight in ignoring my words, i am hoping that this warning will be taken in a similar spirit by them...
...but if my theory is correct, a residual effect will be felt over a small area of Sheepshead Bay -- to wit, a dark cloud will hang over Ocean Avenue for several months blocking out the Sun and sending all those under it's path into a state of complete depression and anxiety. The people under the cloud will suspect that heypaul has something to do with the blocking out of the Sun (since most crazy things that happen are blamed on him). They will end up breaking down his door, tying him to a stake and attempt to boil him in a big pot in an offering to appease the 'gods' in bringing back the Sun.....well maybe I've gone on tooo long now....
;-)
yes but then with the Brighton closed because of the riots all D and Q trains will be routed via the Sea Beach causing massive congestion which everyone will in turn blame on Sea Beach Fred
We have a winner! Brighton Exp Bob is the poster of message 135000.
Peace,
ANDEE
What are those abandoned tunnels on PATH after 9th street on the 33rd street line?
Also there are abandoned tunnel leads on the 63rd street line after Lexington avenue going east.
PATH seems much faster than NYC subways. Especially the tube for the 33rd street line. Is it because their equipment is in better shape?
Also had a few T/O's who really cut it close with timers on PATH, one guy was right on top of the trip arm as it was going down!
In general the timers on PATH are easy to beat, there is only a few before the tube to beat, in NYC subway there are at least 4 or 5 of them upon a declining grade in an under-river tube. I guess the TA uses all the timers (GT's) to cover up their shoddy track work and
maintainance.
What are those abandoned tunnels on PATH after 9th street on the 33rd street line?
I believe a spur was planned, but was discarded after construction.
Also there are abandoned tunnel leads on the 63rd street line after Lexington avenue going east.
I noticed that today, I guess for the 2nd ave line (even though they head south)?? The leads are also present heading westbound just before Lex.
Also had a few T/O's who really cut it close with timers on PATH, one guy was right on top of the trip arm as it was going down!
You don't know the PATH rules for signals?
Green: Well, you never see that
Yelllow: Full Speed Ahead!
Red: Slow down a little
Taillights 100' away: Stop
Just kidding!
Isn't that tunnel near 9th street the fabled Astor Place connection?
Yes. See Conrad Misek's post for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PATH bellmouths just beyond 9th Street are for a planned extension that never was constructed. They only go a few feet.
The connections you see on the 63rd Street line are part of the provisions for the Second Avenue line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PATH (H&M) had at least two seriously considered extensions. One was under 9th Street to the Astor Place IRT/Lex. station, the other was beyond 33rd Street to GCT.
Also note southbound in Jersey City, just prior to entering Pavonia, the tunnel jogs to the left, avoiding the original alignment (the scene of a tunneling accident). At Grove Street, the extreme east end of the westbound platform side, note the tunnel spur leading to the site of the old Henderson Street shop.
You may also know that the Newark Station is not the original - - the original was at Park Place, current site of the Performing Arts Center. The H&M had their own bridge across the river, abutments for the span are still visible at the waters' edge.
Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I thought those tunnel leads were the connection from the 7th Avenue line(N/R) to the 63rd St. tunnel or are those tracks elsewhere?
{{In addition, the person
said, when the supervisors
were questioned by
((could not say with
certainty...they had
completed the inspections
in question. ... time cards
showed ...
inspectors had not worked
on the days when records
indicate that they
performed the inspections.)))
So much for safety (in sadness more than anger)
[[
[[
WABC-TV had the story on the news this morning.
Get out your RCI manuals, here's another obscure tech question!
Riding on a train of R-32s today (Jamaica fleet) we stopped
on the upgrade approaching Ely Ave. Fairly close to the third
rail gap at the crossover. Now, get this: After about 10 seconds
of being stopped, the lights go into emergency mode (only 2 tubes
in the whole car lit). Same thing in the mate car behind us.
HOWEVER, the blower fans and compressor were still running, so
we couldn't have been off the rail. Shortly after we started moving
again, the lights came back on normal.
Speculation as to the cause of this?
That's too easy! You were in the (first car) odd car which was not gapped. The car behind you, the even car, was gapped. With the even car gapped, the converted drops out causing the ELR in both cars to drop out. This is because the main lights operate on battery voltage
Another question, what can cause the ELR to come on in one car and not the other lights out pitch dark? (this was the last car, assume we were gapped so the emer. lights came on in the other car).
Since the main lights in the R-32 are strictly battery, the ELR does not function in the same way as the ELR of old. If the emergency lights do not come on in a given car it is likely a simple component failure such as the ELR itself.
Ooops, "my bad" as the kids today say. How is the ELR signal carried
from the even car to the lighting inverter in the odd car? Is it
one of the extra non-trainline trainlines that run in the jumpers
between the two cars in the pair?
FROM THE NY DAILY NEWS
Peace,
ANDEE
Very interesting article. Especially the excerpt below:
A TA spokesman said riders' safety was not
jeopardized, but the agency is reviewing staffing
levels and changing record keeping and
inspection procedures.
"We are taking a look at the workload and seeing
if we have adequate numbers of supervisors," TA
spokesman Al O'Leary said. "The critical issue in
our mind was does this have safety implications?
Are signals not being properly maintained? We
came to the conclusion that safety had not been
compromised."
In other words, those inspections weren't really necessary and we are going to add more personnel to make sure that these unnecesary inspections are really done in the future.
Who does he think he's kidding?
I sort of agree....
The singnal maintener goes out puts a new bulb relay or widget in, tests it and goes on to the next assignement.
The following motormen will let them know if there are still problems out there.
I make a different analysis. The stripped down message is we want you to believe safety was not in question but we need to tighten up our process. In the Times piece which I quoted in an earlier post the significant part to me was inspections were logged on days when the inspector in question was not on duty. That to me is serious fraud--can you say fired? As to the actual necessity--the signal system is vital. No if's, and's or but's, so checking and rechecking seems correct.
Anybody remember when a passenger train was rammed at, I Believe l03rd and Bway by the money train or some other non-revenue movement?: Luckily during the night but still enough injuries. With the #1 train in the station the extra or whatever had a GREEN signal. Officials later admitted emergency mickey-mouse repairs to that signal, and it was SOP to keep things moving. PLEASE. needless to say it backfired and caused a wreck.
[inspections were logged on days when the inspector in question was not on duty.]
Where I work, for bookkeeping reasons, employees sometimes work on days that the official record says they were off.
I have heard through the grapevine that there is a Lincoln Center Festival/Mostly Mozart Festival MetroCard with a 09/30/2001 expiration date. Does anyone know where it is available?
I got my at Stillwell ave station. The Mermayd Ave exit. The MVM to the far left as you exit the station.
Robert
Yesterday's Daily News had an article about the only other time in recorded baseball history when two teams in one city played each other in a regular season day-night doubleheader using both ballparks. Happened in Sept. 1903 when the NY Giants and Brooklyn Superbas (later the Dodgers) played an AM game in Brooklyn (Washington Park, at 4th St. and 3d Ave. in the Park Slope area) and a PM game in Manhattan (Polo Grounds, 155th St/8th Ave.) It was not called the "Subway Series" then because subways did not open in NY for another year.
So how did the teams go from one ballpark to the other? My guess - BRT elevated from Flatbush/Atlantic Ave. to Park Row, walk west to the 9th Ave. El which took them uptown to 155th St. Anyone else have any possible routes?
doug diamond was deeply disappointed by greyhound's opening of a brooklyn bus boarding point by the dekalb avenue station on flatbush ave... doug had been lobbying furiously to have the greyhound station stop in brooklyn located at the prospect park end of the franklin shuttle... he had hoped that such placement would accomplish his dream of having the franklin shuttle connect to all destinations in the united states, canada, and mexico... despite this disappointment, he is continuing his efforts to have prospect park changed into an international airfield, so as to connect the shuttle with all points on the globe... failing that effort, he has backup plans to have nasa move the space shuttle launch site moved to the park... this would realize his ultimate goal of connecting the franklin shuttle to a shuttle to the universe...
Keep cool man! Who said the Franklin Shuttle doesn't connect to all points via Greyhound? Of course it does..via connections at Franklin/Fulton (A train to 42/ 8th). Maybe even at Prospect Park, 6th Ave trains to West 4th change for 8th Ave. Ha Ha. Or easier yet Prospect Park to Dekalb for Greyhound there. Heck, even from my podunk town in Nodak I have connections to all those places. Including Prospect Park and Franklin shuttle--via Greyhound first. Sleep tight. You'll need it if you read this in the morning. Hi Doug!
Hey, Ed!
Thanks for putting heypaul in his place (which should be Ward G at Kings County, but that's another story).
The Franklin Shuttle makes connections to everything BUT the express station at Nostrand Ave. (where it should have been connected to if NYCT had the dough to do so). I can live with it being one track north of Botanic Garden station, but the TA could easily have extended the El structure two blocks East to Nostrand and that would have made the Shuttle much more viable link in the system. Too bad.
BTW, I've been meaning to say "hi" to you again and ask you a question: of all the equipment you've operated on the subway system, which one was your favorite in terms of reliability in revenue service?
Doug aka BMTman
>>>I can live with
it being one track north of Botanic Garden station, but the TA could easily have extended the
El structure two blocks East to Nostrand and that would have made the Shuttle much more
viable link in the system. <<<
Maybe so, but the NIMBY rule these days is no more els, and for Pete's sake, don't reactivate old commuter rail ROWs!
www.forgotten-ny.com
In terms of reliability I'd say the R40, preferably non A/C, menaing the slants. For some reason the A/C did make a difference in train braking.Behind that the R27/30. My favorite-real favorite but I have to defer to their condition in later years in terms of reliability, was the R1-9, I loved running them. As for #1 on my favorites list, never did get to run them, but as a fan: The IRT High-V's.
ed... i really don't know much about the high-v's other than the controller had 600 volts in the motorman's cab... how dangerous was that?... did anyone ever get hurt because of it?... were the high v's a different running car than the low v's?
The Hi-V controller was more like an old-style streetcar
controller. You have the ability to notch-up by hand.
There is 600V inside the controller, but the controller frame
is grounded and the handle knob is double-insulated. I've
never heard of any accidents during the Hi-V's years.
You want to run one today (well, maybe not TODAY, but in the
contemporary era) Join up at Branford!
Yes, heypaul, we'd like to see you up at Branford lending a hand (or two). Speaking of volunteering, the latest BERA newsletter has a shot of Stef working the roof of IRT R-17 #6688 as he steadies himself by grabbing hold of a live overhead wire. Needless to say we "grounded" Stef for the rest of that day.
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
HEY! Wise guy aren't you? Don't worry railfans, this enthusiast (I, the one decreed as Stef) was quite safe clutching the 600v overhead. Kids, don't try this at home...
-Stef
I've heard of grounding someone for not "making the grade", but this is ridiculous.:-)
Then there's Seashore's Gibbs Hi-V 3352. Todd has reported that it needs a lot of work, to make a long story short.
Sorry to hear also from a friend of mine that Branford couldn't run their High-V, 3662, because of air problems and repair parts impossble to find as they had a unique triple valve. Perhaps and hopefully that situation has been corrected, as I got that news last December.
Your news was very dated even as of last December. The
problem with the triple valve was repaired (by me, I might
add) in winter 1998.
That pleases me to hear this news. Assume you had to machine your own parts? But happy to hear there is one operative High V in the country. Thanks.
In this case it required nothing more than a good cleaning and
the replacement of some gaskets.
An October date to think about ... 7th & 8th at Shoreline you'll be able to ride (fingers crossed):
Hi-V #3662; Lo-V #5466; BU El Gate car #1227; R-9 #1689; R-17 #6688, the 1st PCC delivered to an operator #1001.
Also H&M #503 will probally be outside in static display (still a lot of work inside before she's ready for customers) AND you can get up close & personal with Std #2775 & SIRT #388.
There will also be ONLY of NYC trolleys in operation these days AND there are some other choice items in the collection burried in the barns that you might want to see. Come early and ask if one of the members would be able to show you that car, i.e. the Mineola. We want to please, so if there's enough staff available we'll try to accomodate reasonable requests. OR you can just let Doug, Lou, Jeff, Steve, Patrick or myself TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE ... ding ding.
Mr t__:^)
Guess Jeff H took care of some of the questions. I never had a chance to run High-v"s; but I enjoyed them so much as a child and youth railfan. Right, 600 volts right in the controller (and I've been told. electric brake line); acceleration manual, first 5 points (If I"m right about 5 , maybe 4 but think 5) were in series, manual transition to the next 5 points in parallel.There was a big notch in the controller between series and parallel, and just like all but the newest diesels you feel the High-V's lay back making transition. They had a bus jumpers between cars, so the entire train was always energized, therefore trailers had no contact shoes.Going over gaps there was no lights blinking out nor each car dropping the motor controls and then picking up again. They had the same HP (400) as the Low-V's, felt about the same over the road but there was something so awesome about them with the exotic mixtures...Gibbs, Deckroofs, and standard ( these in motor and trailer.) No lineswitch pop when controller was shut off. You could hear them notch up, and then wind down when going out of power. Send me an e-mail if you need more.
They (and the Lo-Vs) are 380 (2x190) HP cars, actually. Yes, the
electric brake trainlines were also 600VDC. There was no battery
on these cars, except most of the cars got battery emergency lighting
in the 1920s or so (except the Deckroofs, for some reason). Accel
under full manual control but you could also "wind the clocK"
and let the automatic acceleration take over. No line switch
per se...the contactors under the car were individually rated to
interrupt the main motor current.
IIRC, the controllers on the Gibbs Hi-Vs had a heavy coil spring which prevented the motorman from notching up too fast.
Yes indeed; and there was an overload relay that dropped out all the motors if you accelerated too fast. Now I'm speaking from the 50's, perhaps the auto. acceleration feature had been removed; I don't know for a fact. But I do remember riding with one or two motormen that had to reset a few times. You could hear and even see the arc from the 600 V reset switch. One motor instructor that I knew had run the High-v's and told me he used to light his cigarettes with that reset switch. I used to have a l9l6 IRT rule book and there was mention of (in a rule) automatic feed. It was to be used normally if the train was so equipped. But the rule went on that should it fail you were to run manually, tag the controller, and report the defect. If you liked the R1-9 too bad you weren't around to ride the old IRT before the R17's and up arrived. It was great.
No, the Hi-Vs were long gone by the time I became immersed in the subway, and by the time I had learned about the remaining Lo-Vs and Q cars, they were gone as well. Luckily, I was able to savor the R-1/9s while they were still around. I suppose the BMT standards should receive honorable mention. Looking back, I've come to appreciate having the opportunity to ride on them as well. But oh, how I wish I could have experienced the Triplexes...
Steve, It is too bad you could not work it out so that you could have caught one of the three dates of these trips. I'll let you sit on my shoulder (in spirt) on the 23rd.
Mr t__:^)
The line breaker also drops out if you lose the 600. Not a big
deal running a train with the bus jumpers but when you are moving
a single unit around it gets kind of annoying.
The controller is such that you can "wind it up", which only
puts tension on a spring. The rest of the controller follows
along, notching up under control of the accelerating relay
trainline. If that isn't working, then the automatic accel feature
fails and you must notch by hand.
Guess Jeff H took care of some of the questions. I never had a chance to run High-v"s; but I enjoyed them so much as a child and youth railfan. Right, 600 volts right in the controller (and I've been told. electric brake line); acceleration manual, first 5 points (If I"m right about 5 , maybe 4 but think 5) were in series, manual transition to the next 5 points in parallel.There was a big notch in the controller between series and parallel, and just like all but the newest diesels you feel the High-V's lay back making transition. They had a bus jumpers between cars, so the entire train was always energized, therefore trailers had no contact shoes.Going over gaps there was no lights blinking out nor each car dropping the motor controls and then picking up again. They had the same HP (400) as the Low-V's, felt about the same over the road but there was something so awesome about them with the exotic mixtures...Gibbs, Deckroofs, and standard ( these in motor and trailer.) No lineswitch pop when controller was shut off. You could hear them notch up, and then wind down when going out of power. Send me an e-mail if you need more.
They (and the Lo-Vs) are 380 (2x190) HP cars, actually. Yes, the
electric brake trainlines were also 600VDC. There was no battery
on these cars, except most of the cars got battery emergency lighting
in the 1920s or so (except the Deckroofs, for some reason). Accel
under full manual control but you could also "wind the clocK"
and let the automatic acceleration take over. No line switch
per se...the contactors under the car were individually rated to
interrupt the main motor current.
IIRC, the controllers on the Gibbs Hi-Vs had a heavy coil spring which prevented the motorman from notching up too fast.
Yes indeed; and there was an overload relay that dropped out all the motors if you accelerated too fast. Now I'm speaking from the 50's, perhaps the auto. acceleration feature had been removed; I don't know for a fact. But I do remember riding with one or two motormen that had to reset a few times. You could hear and even see the arc from the 600 V reset switch. One motor instructor that I knew had run the High-v's and told me he used to light his cigarettes with that reset switch. I used to have a l9l6 IRT rule book and there was mention of (in a rule) automatic feed. It was to be used normally if the train was so equipped. But the rule went on that should it fail you were to run manually, tag the controller, and report the defect. If you liked the R1-9 too bad you weren't around to ride the old IRT before the R17's and up arrived. It was great.
No, the Hi-Vs were long gone by the time I became immersed in the subway, and by the time I had learned about the remaining Lo-Vs and Q cars, they were gone as well. Luckily, I was able to savor the R-1/9s while they were still around. I suppose the BMT standards should receive honorable mention. Looking back, I've come to appreciate having the opportunity to ride on them as well. But oh, how I wish I could have experienced the Triplexes...
Steve, It is too bad you could not work it out so that you could have caught one of the three dates of these trips. I'll let you sit on my shoulder (in spirt) on the 23rd.
Mr t__:^)
The line breaker also drops out if you lose the 600. Not a big
deal running a train with the bus jumpers but when you are moving
a single unit around it gets kind of annoying.
The controller is such that you can "wind it up", which only
puts tension on a spring. The rest of the controller follows
along, notching up under control of the accelerating relay
trainline. If that isn't working, then the automatic accel feature
fails and you must notch by hand.
Thanks, Ed. Glad to hear you enjoyed the reliability of the slant R-40's. They are at the top of my list of all-time favorite NYC subway rolling stock. Even though they were deemed "lemons" due to their lack of end-gate saftey features, I appreciated the Raymond Loewy 'shovel-nose' design that gave us a unique looking subway car.
And it's good to hear you liked the R 1-9 series of cars. I recently acquired an R-9 deadman's handle and it sits proudly on the top of my bookcase.
Doug aka BMTman
say ed... what you said about the connections to greyhound via the d or the a is what is have been telling doug... but he insists that there should be direct connection with greyhound, or the airlines, or the space shuttle... he wants a one seat ride...
don't get me wrong... i am not attacking doug... i think after me he is the most reasoned person here at subtalk... it's just his obsession with the franklin shuttle
like his new project is to get parker brothers to issue a special franklin ave shuttle edition of monopoly... there would only be 4 spaces to land on... each side of the board would be a stop... the little toys that move around the board are either r11's, r68's, or a brt wooden car... if you roll two sixes, you get to ride on the brt malbone special...
i can't convince him that no one would be interested in playing the game...
heypaul...the Monopoly Franklin Shuttle Edition sounds like a great idea!
But only for ERA members or a select group of SubTalkers.
BTW, where are you getting the creative energy for all these posts? Has the medication worn off? I don't recall a full moon is due in the next couple of days...
Doug aka BMTman
era members and a special group of subtalkers will be on the initial run of the malbone street special...
thanks for noticing that my creative energies seem a bit higher...it may have something to do with my use of the killfile... i have put everyone's handle in my killfile... this way i get to read only my posts, which has greatly improved my mental health...
Do you know that you can get customized monopoly sets. I don't know specifics, but there are companies that make them to order. Usually towns buy them to promote local buissness. Subway monopoly would not be hard to make.
That's very interesting. I might go and check out the feasibility of doing just that.
Thanks for the info!
Doug aka BMTman
I have seen Phidelphia monopoly, Haddonfiled monopoly and Jackson Township NJ monopoly (home of Great Adventure). I don't know about the cost. Either they are so expensive that even with the advertising from local bussinesses they still cost like 12$ or they are cheap enough that w/ the advertising towns can give them awat for free.
I have a Denver version of Monopoly.
A NYC subway version really would be cool, IMHO. You've got an abundance of street names to choose from (Boardwalk could stay the same, as well as Park Place), and you could substitute IRT, BMT, IND, and who-knows-what for the railroads. One of the tokens could be an R-10, another a BMT standard, etc., etc. Food for thought.
And one of the tokens could be a... token.
You bet. And even then, you could have one dime-sized, one quarter-sized, and one half dollar-sized token. I picked up one of those Aqueduct Special tokens, and they were huge!
Monopoly already has one railroad that fits the Franklin shuttle: Short Line ! True?
The Railroads would be PRR, NYC, NHRR and either LIAR or PATH.
Nah ... if it's going to be a rapid transit version then: SIRT, NYCH, NY&A, CNJ or NJT, So. Bklyn Ry, H&M or PATH, LIRR, M-N, AND of course IRT, BMT & IND.
Mr t__:^)
All of the above. The name is MONOPOLY
avid
I have a copy of Oceanside LI monopoly & had a Hampton's version that I gave to a friend's son who lives out there.
Mr t__:^)
I would like some imput on this question. A friend of mine visited the trolley museum in Maine. He said they had a D.O.T. subway car that was around some time ago a car of the future. I beleive NY had this car for a while. Anyway he claims that this car was the model for what would be the R-44 R-46s down the road. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone know the length of this d.o.t. car? Thank you for any help.
That would be the State of the Art car (SOAC) there is extensive Info on these cars on ths site Heres a link:
CLICK HERE FOR SOAC INFO.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're talking about the SOAC. Click and read...
Well I've been having fun with my new radio scanner. As have yet I have not gone on any railfan trips with it, but I can pick up some stuff from my house. In addition to the rather infreaquent Conrail traffic on 161.860 I can clearly recieve SEPTA WAYNE/WIND. However I can not recieve the inbound communications TO SEPTA WAYNE/WIND so the conversations I pick up are a tad one sided. Some of the more exciting aspects of last nights evening rush were an inability to raise some train over the radio (at one point the SEPTA dispatcher was yelling at them to answer) and something wrong w/ switch #17. For about 5 minutes they were flipping it from normal to reverse and back.
Using my hand held tape recorder and dubbing cable I will record some of these tidbits and save them to my PC. I may even start embedding non-sequetur sound bytes in all of my Subtalk posts.
PS: Does anyone know a good WAV-> MP3 converter
PPS: CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE FREAQUENCIES!
Like many transit systems PATCO has a "bring your bike on selcted trains" policy. Well 2 days ago I saw a moron single handedly put this policy in doubt. Some older guy, after getting off the train with his bike, proceeded to RIDE THE BIKE ALONG THE PLATFORM to reach the handicapped elevator. My train operator went nut and started to yellt, but the idiot just ignored him. Once we were above ground the TO called in on the radio for the PATCO police to try and stop the guy as he came out of the elevator, but I had the feeling that they would be too late.
As of 11:00 yesterday (Thursday), it was anticipated that the first revenue run of the R142 will be the 0706 White Plains - Flatbush on Monday July 10. For those of you trying to meet, be aware that because of the supplement schedule in effect, the 0706 really leaves at 0702, if everything is running in place.
Here comes a train - overpacked before it leaves terminal !!!!
Well I live on this line, so maybe I'll attempt to grab it sometime during the day.
-Stef
Stef,
Be on the Look out this weekend for the R142A making its way from E 180 St to Westchester Yard.
My eyes and ears are open, friend. Out of curiosity, how many Kawasaki are currently on the property? Trevor? I believe there's more than the initial 10 delivered.....
-Stef
What is the running time to 86th Street?
#2 dosent stop there
From Pelham Bay to 86St is about 30 -32 minutes if there are no problems along the line.
Oops. I thought it was a #5. My mistake.
Also as of 12:30PM today Friday July 7th I was told the First R142A will also start rolling Monday July 10th. The First run will be the 8:08AM out of Pelham Bay which would of been my run. However I do not work on Monday's so there will be someone else in place of me, But I will be there Tuesday to start my day with the R 142A if there are no problems.
To all R 142 and R 142A Buffs Enjoy!
RTD has begun running full schedules along the Southwest Corridor in anticipation of Opening Day next Friday. Trains no longer layup just south of the Broadway station; instead, they keep on going all the way to Mineral Ave. minus passengers. I saw two northbound trains along Santa Fe Drive yesterday. From what I could see, they were stopping at the new stations, but the operators kept the doors closed. Their signs said, "Not in Service" while running south of Broadway, but as they approached that station, the operator would set the signs to 18th St. or 30th Ave. depending on where they were headed.
I took a light rail train downtown from Broadway on Tuesday, and noticed a few changes. The original LRVs have been fitted with new analog speedometers which still read up to 65 mph, and new recordings have been made for station announcements which feature a woman's voice. Well, there was a woman's voice on the northbound run, anyway. The newest LRVs (118-131) are in service; the train I took back to Broadway consisted of 103 leading 130. On the northbound trip, 106 was in front of 104. Last week, I saw one train with newcomers 129 and 122. Hey, Wayne, this carspotting can be contagious!:-)
There will be a sneak preview this Sunday, which I obtained a pass to attend. I can't wait; the AVERAGE distance between stops on the new extension is right around 1 3/4 miles, while the Littleton and Mineral Ave stations are over 2 miles apart. Those trains will have a chance to really get unlimbered. The R-10s would have had a field day on this line. So would have the R-46s as delivered.
Steve,
As I was on the way to Downtown for an appointment, I noticed all the activities along SW Line next to Santa Fe Drive. As the train sped past me while I was driving about 50 MPH speed limit, the train was going little faster, when I catched up with the train, my speedo shows 60 MPH.
I asked my supervisor if I can have a day off for next weekend but unfortunately, he refused so I guess I have to wait till my next day off which is Monday, July 17th.
Please let us know how it went on the first day as you are planning to ride on that day.
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver (Lakewood), ColorFUL Colorado!
I got a sneak preview yesterday, taking a train from Mineral Ave. to Evans Ave. and back. Coincidentally, the northbound train was the same one I took last Tuesday, 103-130. They are so smooth and quiet you don't even realize you're doing 55 mph. I had the feeling those trains were just itching to go faster.
I did see 131 coupled to 121 yesterday. 131 is currently the highest numbered car in the fleet. One thing I did notice was that the newer cars (112-131) don't have opening panels on their side windows. Only the original 11 cars do.
Oh and Wayne, you'll be pleased to note that the drop sash windows on the cab doors extend downwards as far as the railfan windows on the slant R-40s. (I'm not sure if I posted this tidbit earlier. I had a nice post on yesterday's railfanning all written up and it wouldn't post. Sorry if this is redundant.)
Meanwhile, the anticipation is growing. There is a "Littleton Welsomes Light Rail" banner above West Main St. just north of the Littleton/Downtown station, and the old train depot will serve as a station house, complete with espresso bar and waiting area.
The opening ceremony is at 11:30 this Friday at Mineral Ave. I will be there.
Hi, I'm not positive this is exactly what you're looking for on this message board but bear with me. Ever since I moved to NYC a few years ago I've been interested in making a model of the subway system that would help me understand the (literal and figurative) ins and outs and ups and downs of it. I found an interesting website about making your own model but I'm afraid I'm not that talented. I'm looking for something more along the lines of "The Visible Man" and all those educational children's models. Has anyone ever seen anything like that? I'm perfectly content with a limited one (i.e. only Manhattan or something) but I think putting it together would be a pretty cool past-time. If you have any advice or comments, please e-mail me! (act16@columbia.edu)
Thanks,
Alison
Alison,
Do you mean like a three dimensional track map model? The Transit Museum had one of these, once upon a time. It's gone now. I don't recall exactly what happened to it but it's been discussed here before.
We have track maps on this site that would help you with the layout. The overs and unders are pretty accurate. But I think once you look at the maps you may not feel the need to build it out!
Welcome to SubTalk.
-Dave
Just a passing thought, Dave, but you might like to know. The IRT High-v's and Low-V's, Manhattan el cars, BMT q's and BU's, Rl4-26, and Chicago 4000's are alive and well in S gage and running in my basement in Cow Country!
Hey Ed, talking about the trains in your basement. Did you hear about the Hillbilly couple who came to NYC for the first time? They were staying at a hotel, the husband decided to go out for a few drinks. Well he got plastered and while walking back fell down a flight of stairs on the sidewalk. When he got back he told his wife, "I was just in some guy's basement and boy, does he have some set of trains!!!
I think I read that in a magazine back in the 50's..might have been the Pennsy employee mag. But it is indeed a cute one and thanks for sharing.
Sounds great! Please take some sanpshots with your "brownie" and send them to Pat Villani at www.monmouth.com/~patv. I'm sure Pat will be happy to post them on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" website! We need more pictures of others modeling efforts on this site, particularly if you have some subway running. Please share your work!
I'm not sure what you are looking for but several months ago we discussed some commercial O gauge models. I'm currently building an O gauge Subway system and it's quite a daunting task. To date, I've completed the trackwork that will be under the city. It contains around 100' of track (over 3/4 scale mile) and will be covered by the town. The streets will be plexiglass so you can see the trains running under the city. There will also be open-cut and elevated segments, too. The track-plan and operation are being designed to simulate actual operation (where possible). If this is the type of information you are looking for, let me know.
Just as a matter of curiosity, do you have any idea what scale is "O" guage and how many square feet (or square miles) would be covered by a complete "O" guage rendering of the NYC Subway. I.e., what is the smallest rectangle in which it would fit? Now, that would be a train set.
If the Subway is 722 miles long, then an "O" Scale model would contain a lttle over 15 miles of track. However, a modeler would not attempt to "Do" the whole system. He would model a single line, "editing out" the less interesting parts of the line in a process called selective compression, or construct a composite line based on the most interesting features of the whole system and produce a fascinating rendition using only a couple scale miles of track.
When deciding to do my railroad, I first considered a line (Not practical in any gauge) and then a segment of a line. The second didn't appeal to me because to be faithful to the prototype would mean that only one or two of the interesting operational features would be captured. Instead, I opted to create my own design. The design would encompass as many interesting operational features as i could include within the allotted space. I've also tried to maintain prototypical operation while also keeping in mind that I want some continuous running to entertain th grandkids. Keep in mind that, after all, there are toys and they should, first and foremost, entertain.
I decided something similar. Since space restrictions wouldn't allow me to create a realistic prototype of an actual segment of any of the lines, I ran the trains from room to room (just above the door thresholds) and created stations that are replicas of NY subway stations, with the names "Living Room" and "Dining Room" on the mosaics.
If someone has plans for a subway line in N or HO gauge, I might suggest that a shortline of the NYCT system such as the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (original or new version) is something that is feasible to do with limited space.
One of the things I have yet to complete is a combo-freight & subway layout. My plans are to do a 'fictional' South Brooklyn Railway (running on street grade) and contect it with a short subway/El line (making use of my MTH R-42's).
Doug aka BMTman
My layout has an S gage el with surface portions at either end and my first generation equipment. The basic surface line is HO with freight with some long distance passenger, mostly diesel power but some steam and a GGl. The purists would howl,there might be a modern piggyback powered by a C44-9W or SD40's, with a Steam or GGl powered passenger train, and wooden el cars all running at the same time. But I enjoy seeing the things I like represented; as the saying goes "ees joor railroad". By the way once upon a time there was weekend service Franklin(shuttle) to Coney Island over the Brighton. There's easy modeling,no subway per se, a little el at either end and much of the running in cut or embankment so no complex work. Even if they are R42's which weren't around when that service ran...ees joor railroad.
That 722 mile figure is more bragging than fact. That includes double, and 3 and 4 track mains. The actual line mileage should be more like 230-240 miles, unless I've forgotten to add the Rockaways.
I was referring to what it would take to model every inch of the system
I have no idea how large a layout it would be but since O scale is 1:43, divide the area of NYC by 43 and you have a rough idea. To put in into perspective, the segment of my subway system that will run under the city encompasses two return loops and the yard lead. That's roughly 100 feet of track. Those 3 segments of my track-plan cover a 14 X 5 foot segment of the entire layout.
Thanks for the info. I'll have to get out my maps and do some measuring, but it sounds like I would need a couple of square miles of basement floor, even leaving out SI.
"O" Scale is 1/48, not 1/43
This sounds great! When I was in Tokyo, Japan recently on business, I visited the Tokyo Subway Museum. They have a large diorama that uses the plexiglass street treatment for modeling a subway (in HO scale) and it looks very good. Please take some photos of your work and submit them to Pat Villani at www.monmouth.com/~patv. Pat will be happy to post them on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" web site! Good luck!
If you are building a working model (with operating trains), you will
find some interesting resources at:
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
I'm planning to model a portion of the system in Brooklyn in N scale (with operating R32s), but I haven't yet decided on a location. I'm
thinking about the transition between the IND/Culver line near
Ditmas Ave. or between the Carroll and the Smith/9th bridge (both
would be ca. 1970-something). Either way, the below-ground portion would remain hidden so that the train can change direction (without being too obvious). I'm not sure how the trains would return
on the elevated portion. I've also thought about modeling a two-track station (with the trains disappearing into the tunnels for the return trip) with the station exposed (or behind plexiglass) and scenery above the tunnels. I like the 15 Street/Prospect Park station for this idea. There are all sorts of possibilities.
David
as for models there are some really nice powered brass ones of low-vs and yes, everyone's favorite, slantR40s in HO scale. I just saw the ad in "Model railroader" like last month
MTS imports will be selling the R-40 slants; unfortunately, no price has been set yet. I would imagine that the nickel-plated brass, two-car set will cost many hundreds of dollars.
Seems I've recently or within the last year seen ads for some low-cost IRT Redbird types--think they were (not actually redbirds) R21/22 types but they may have included the R26/28/29/33 types. Something under $50 per car for non-powered. See hobby mag's. You can convert an R21/22 to an R17 by changing the end door windows and adding the little emergency window release. Or to a redbird married pair type again by changing the storm door windows.
Slant R-40's in HO already available???? Not likely -- at least not yet. I have been to the MTS website the other day, where the slant R-40's are being CONSIDERED as a future nickel-plated brass set of two-car units (like the prototypes) that will be made in a limited supply of 100 sets. This project is not likely to even be available until sometime in 2001.
If you have the name and address of a company (or person) who is ALREADY offering slant R-40 cars for model railroading, please post the info here.
Doug aka BMTman
I want to do a model of the LIRR, perhaps some obscure branch that's surrounded by trees. Where can I find models of M-1s, C-3s, D?30ACs, or maybe even MP-75 or MP-73s? It'd be nice to see the last 2 move under their own power, even if its on a model.
try way out on east long island out my montauk, where the midday service is only like every 3 hours.... or for something closer you might try the far rockaway branch. better yet, model the rockaway branch circa 1925-1930... now THAT would be cool (might even get into Model Railroader)
Depends on the scale that you want to model in. Willis Hobbies in Mineola has Metro-North M-1s. They also have K-Line GP-38 and K-line 2900 series coaches in O scale.
M-1's: Imperial Hobby Productions down in PA supposedly makes 'em
DE30AC's & C-3's: Lotsa Luck
MP75's? A company by the name of Funaro & Camerlengo made 'em, but they were poor quality resin kits. They crumble if you bump 'em. And they weren't powered.
MP72's (NOT MP73's) were supposedly going to be made by Images replicas but they did not release them.
How about modeling the very interesting LIRR Bay Ridge branch. You could find a challenge in modeling such details as discarded tires, loose railroad ties, wrecked autos, homeless shanties and rotting garbage on the line in HO or O gauge. Let us know how you progress...
Doug aka BMTman
Discarded tires - I can cut parts off rubber tubing.
Homeless shantys - Toothpick houses.
Loose (missing) railroad ties - I use thirdhand track older than I am, no problem there.
I'll probably do something in NYC, if not Bay Ridge than the Lower Montauk or Main Line (From Hunterspoint), provided I find the rolling stock...
The Bay Ridge line has freight cars pulled mainly by GP-38's (in New York & Atlantic Railway color scheme) if you're interested.
[I want to do a model of the LIRR, perhaps some obscure branch that's surrounded by trees.]
Henry, that's why I recommended the Bay Ridge branch. First, when it comes to obsurity in an LIRR branch, you can't find one more obscure. And second, it has more trees per square foot than most other lines. I can attest that it literally runs through a jungle in the Parkville section of Brooklyn! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Seems that my enthusiasm for the progress of the Air Train system has been tempered somewhat by the news of major problems with the Newark Airport Monorail. According to news reports, cracks and premature corrosion have led to an expected 7 month shut-down of the 4 year-old system. The PA estimates the repairs will cost $25 million. Film at 11.
Too much water in the concrete???
The contractor is eating the cost of the repairs. I don't know if it is just some repairs cost he is paying or the whole ammount.
Complete shut down of the system, with buses to replace service for the full 7 months.
Also a lot of work on the parking lots at the same time. Term B parking lot will be halfed in size as they work on it. I hear.
[The contractor is eating the cost of the repairs. I don't know if it is just some repairs cost he is paying or the whole ammount.]
AdTranz supposedly will pay the entire cost. But AFAIK, it hasn't yet been settled whether they'll pick up the tab for the substitute bus service, extra passenger assistance employees, etc.
Let's be fair. It costs something to run the monorail when it's running. The contractor should get a credit for the savings of not running the monorail, to be applied against the cost of the substitute bus operation.
When I arrived at Park Street this afternoon, the Green Line was a mess. I asked an operator what the problem was, and he said, "One of those new trolleys came off the track at Kenmore." I asked him if he knew the car number; he didn't, but said it was a Type-8. No further details are available at this time... have any of my fellow Boston SubTalkers heard anything else?
I haven't heard anything yet, but I'll be going through that section of subway in about half an hour. I'll be sure to post a message to SubTalk if I notice any unusual weirdness.
-- David
Boston, MA
I just got home from work, where my route takes me on the Green Line between Park Street and Washington Square on the C branch. I didn't see any derailed trains, dismembered bodies or other wreckage, but I noticed a couple things that indicated there had been a derailment:
1) The emergency car that normally sits on a layup track just outbound of the Boylston stop was nowhere to be seen.
2) Just before going across the switch at Kenmore (going outbound), we stopped and waited for an unusually long period.
3) We crawled over the switch at a snail's pace, and it seemed like an unusually rough ride.
4) There were several MBTA personnel standing in the tunnel next to the switch as we went over.
Once we got into the station at Kenmore, we continued as normal.
On an unrelated note, my Red Line train was stopped between Park Street and Charles/MGH (going outbound) for what seemed like 10-15 minutes during my morning commute today. Apparently there was a train ahead of us at Charles/MGH that was experiencing some difficulties.
Also, while we're on the subject of the Green Line, the past few weekends the B branch has been shut down while crews improve the grade crossings. Free shuttle busses are running along the route in the meantime. My observation: The shuttle busses seem to be running much faster and more frequently than the trolleys they're replacing. What's wrong with this picture??
That's my report... Maybe I'll walk down to Cleveland Circle to see if I can find any Type-8 trolleys that look damaged. I guess the million-dollar question would be: Does the Type-8 have some grevious defect that caused the derailment, or was this particular Type-8 the hapless victim of a defective switch or track? Stay tuned...
-- David
Boston, MA
"The shuttle buses running faster and more frequent than the trollies"
I wish I could say the same about the Newark Subway substitute bus - I absolutely hate that damn thing and I avoid it at all costs. If I do ride it, I cringe my teeth, close my eyes, and dive. It will never fail to put me in a foul mood. The running time is twice as long as the subway, the headways are twice as long as the subway, and it is overall a miserable ride. Every time I take it, I miss my bus connection at Franklin Ave. I think the worse part is being aware that I'm wasting my time on a bus when the subway could get me there much faster. In addition, they mostly use 1994 Flxibles on the subway bus (from Big Tree Garage), which are nice buses, but are sometimes agonizingly slow.
In today's (Friday 7/7/00) NY Times, reporter Alan Feuer describes Saturday's Subway Series:
"It's a subway series -- you gotta take the train," Tom Milan was saying with such an adamant certainty that his buddies at the bar just had to disagree.
"No, you don't," said one of them, Jerry Beyrer, putting his beer momentarily aside. "You don't take the train at all. You get a nylon jacket, print 'security' in orange on the back and you sneak on the team bus. That's what you do."
Manny Feliu, sitting next to Mr. Beyrer at the Yankee Tavern on Wednesday night, saw it even differently. "You stay at home," he said, swirling his gin with quiet authority. "You click the remote from station to station, then you relax. Trust me, it's the quickest trip you'll ever take."
The main article continues at:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/sports/baseball/070700bbo-subway-series.html
Bombardier Train just passed through southbound at Jackson Av at 10:25PM. Off to Flatbush it goes!!!!
-Stef
Or maybe Livonia yard.... There is no yard at Flatbush...
Ill be on the lookout from my window........
3TM
No, no. It's going to do a round trip run and head back to the Bronx.
-Stef
The train has just returned northbound as of 12:32AM, heading home.
-Stef
The train passed through northbound this evening at 7:52PM. No protection train!!!!
-Stef
They where running the R 142A from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge with no protection train.
It looks like there ready to roll come Monday.
That's great. The future has arrived. Now if we don't have an R-44/46 fiasco, I think we'll be alright.....
-Stef
say dave... i heard on the grapevine, that they are providing train operators on the first runs with the new equipment, canisters of railfan spray repellant, to keep the railfans from swarming around the cab door..
They are handing them out at Brooklyn Bridge in case anyone trys to stay on the train.
You mean I can't ride around the loop in a sleek train of stainless steel cars? Gosh darn it, I'm disappointed. I hate railfan repellent....
-Stef
Okay, I'm going to try to put a link into my message, just to see if I've got the HTML right:
See
Back to the drawing board ...
You forgot to close the quotes on the href
You forgot to use the preview function so you can do all of your testing without adding extra messages to the board.
Pigs;
Can you test a link in the preview mode, or will it just show you how the link will look in the posted message?
Tom
Good question. Just tried it. The link works from the preview page (or not, if you mess up the way I did on the first try).
The message looks exactly like it would if it was posted and was being viewed. Except that there are (obviously) no responses, no box for posting one and no header with logo and links (not to be confused with the location bar above it). In addition, there is a button for posting.
The posting successful message strips the posting information (Posted by handle on Sat Jul 8 15:43:59 2000, in response to...) and the subject headline, along with adding a link to return to the index.
I think you mean: See this link for a good laugh.
KMA, there was trouble with your link, try it THIS WAY
Silly me. I just assumed that when I had tinkered enough to get it to appear, it would work. I bow to the master.
Okay, I think I've got it to work:
See this link for a good laugh.
I still can't figure out whether the linked page is a joke or is meant to be taken seriously.
John Stossel, on Friday's 20/20, hacked away at LA's subway system, citing its underuse and calling it a waste of time. What he didn't do was slam Angelenos for continuing to choke highways and poison the air with their cars.
Can nothing break the USA's love affair with the automobile? The networks aren't doing anything about it. I wonder how many automotive sponsors 20/20 has...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm an ex-New Yorker who lives in Los Angeles, so I can see both sides of the story.
There are those people who live in Los Angeles who would not use a subway for any reason, even if it took them door-to-door each day. As a person who loves subways (when I go back to New York, I rarely use much else to get around, other than my feet) I would love to be able to leave my car at home and use mass transit. Unfortunately, for many people, myself included, there are few alternatives other than the use of a car.
Los Angeles is not laid out the way New York is. In New York, the vast majority of people work in Midtown or Lower Manhattan; in Los Angeles, only a small portion of the population works downtown. Los Angeles is a city that, in reality, has no true "center" where people go to work. Additionally, the city is spread out over a much larger area, with a lower population density per square mile than New York City.
I do not live, much less work, anywhere near either the Red Line (the subway) or the Blue or Green Lines (light rail). Getting to work via mass transit, for me, would consist of a a half-mile walk to a bus, a 15 minute wait, a 30 minute ride, and another small walk. The trip by car takes me five minutes. I used to live in the San Fernando Valley and commuted to West L.A.. After a car accident, I was able to get to work a few times by taking three busses over a two-hour period, as opposed to a 45 minute drive.
The Los Angeles Red Line is the most expensive subway line ever built. Being in Earthquake country makes construction costs that much more expensive. One proposed extension of the Red Line was cancelled because it would have passed through a vast area of methane gas pockets Near the La Brea Tar Pits. And expenditures on subways are controversial, because they siphon money away from other transit projects (bus lines that serve the poorer neighborhoods) and other crumbling portions of the city's infrastructure (which was made worse by the 1994 quake).
New York City has been trying to build a Second Avenue Subway for decades without much success. In the case of that line, the targeted passengers, and the usefulness of the line are clearly defined. In Los Angeles, nothing is a clear-cut.
I actually used the Red Line when I was on jury duty in Downtown Los Angeles. The trains were eerily empty.
As I said earlier, I would love to use a subway to get to work. Obviously, Mr. Walsh, you would love me to give up my car. If you can figure out how to fund a workable system, all power to you. You didn't state where you live; before you advocate that people should "slam" us, I would suggest you try living in this city for a while and experience the problems first-hand.
>>>There are those people who live in Los Angeles who would not use a subway for any reason,
even if it took them door-to-door each day.<<
That's an unfortunate mindset.
>>>Getting to work via mass transit, for me, would consist of a a half-mile
walk to a bus, a 15 minute wait, a 30 minute ride, and another small walk. <<<
Well...is that so bad? I once lived in Brooklyn and worked in Port Washington, a North Shore community abt 20 miles away. I took two subways and the LIRR. I didn't much mind. Lots of people in NYC walk, then take a train and a bus to work. In all weather, too.
>>>Obviously, Mr. Walsh, you would
love me to give up my car. <<<
Well, no, Mr. Platform, I didn't say that. I'm objecting to the apparent intransigence on the part of Angelenos, and for a more generalized view, most of America, to forgo their autos for something as simple as getting a loaf of bread and a carton of milk.
We've constructed a society that has erected vast suburban communities without sidewalks, with shopping malls every few miles, and we've conditioned people that their personal vehicles have to be used to get them EVERYWHERE. Frankly, I think it's a sick way of doing things.
The problem is no less acute in NYC, which hasone of the world's most extensive networks of public transportation. Take a walk through midtown someday. The streets are clogged with trucks, cars, cabs, buses, none of them moving, and all of them leaning on their horns because they believe that making noise will make the guy ahead of them move.
"Moving", there's gotta be a better way of doing things. I don't have the answer, but I believe, unlike John stossel, that public transport has to be a part of it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sad to say the same mentality prevails even in the boondocks. Nobody, or few anyway, walks. I do, or ride my bike. Doesn't matter if its only a few blocks. My wife drove my l9 year old stepson to his first day on a new job the other morning THREE BLOCKS FROM HERE. pLEASE.
Heck the dang subway train is longer than that!
Elias
The problem with Los Angeles and mass transit is compounded by the topography, which forces the suburban sprawl to work its way in and around the mountains which divide the main Los Angeles basin from the San Fernando Valley, with the fault lines in and around those areas adding to the cost.
Thanks to decisions made a half-century ago, the desire for single family homes over apartments/condos or co-ops, the mountains that limit housing construction to only certain areas (unless you have enough money to afford to build up some winding canyon road, giving you the chance to either be burshfired or mudslid out of your dreamhouse in the future), a heavy rail system built anywhere in L.A. never can serve a dense enough population base at its outer end, since the city and its suburbs just kept spreading out, and once you have to put them in their cars to get to the subway station, odds are they'll keep going all the way into work.
Light rail and/or a commuter rail system would be more effective -- when the Northridge quake hit and knocked out I-5 and Calif. 14 to Santa Clarita and the Palmdale/Lancaster area, state officials got commuter rail service up and running in one week, after previously saying it would take years to finish. The system's still in operation, even with the I-5 interchange back up and running, and since the line also handles freight train service, it's got more of a revenue stream than a subway-only line into the same area would have.
[[and once you have to put them in their cars to get to the subway station, odds are they'll keep going all the way into work. ]]
Well, check out the parking lots by the LIRR some morning.
Heck, I always drove to the station to catch a train.
(And one morning as we left the station, the conductor was kind enough to tell me that I had left my headlights on.)
Of course, as we all know, New York *is* different.
I mean, where *could* you park a car.
And if you did find a place, why would you want to pay $200+ a month for parkings.
The economics of the thing makes the car largely non-viable in New York, combined with the fact that most New Yorkers do not even own a car.
I would praise the day that Manhattan was closed to cars south of the park. Let the trucks ride on the streets and the taxis and busses ride on the avenues.
Now in LA? Gee, I'm glad I have never lived there, so I haven't a clue as to what to do there.
Elias
"I would praise the day that Manhattan was closed to cars south of the park. Let the trucks ride on the streets and the taxis and busses ride on the avenues."
Then you would praise the day New York ceases to be a viable city.
Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there, and less of them would have cars.
I do believe that New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan. I lived for many years in Manhattan and in Brooklyn, and the idea of owning a car never entered my mind. If I would take a vacation upstate, I would rent a car.
I have heard that in Tokyo, you had to prove that you owned a parking place before you could license a car in parts of the city.
Elias
>>> Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there <<<
Elias;
Are you serious? Unless New York has changed a great deal since I lived on East 34th Street in the 40's there are many, many people living south of Central Park in Manhattan. Are these people who just don't count to you?
As far as not owning a car, if that is your individual preference, that's fine, I have lived in New York with and without a car, and even in a city with great public transportation like New York, having a car adds to your personal freedom.
>>> New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan <<<
Although it might make sense to bar private automobiles of non-residents from certain areas of lower Manhattan, commercial vehicles such as taxis would be necessary.
Tom
(Although it might make sense to bar private automobiles of non-residents from certain areas of lower Manhattan, commercial vehicles such as taxis would be necessary. )
While riding uptown around noon in a city car, I was promoting the vitues of congestion pricing to reduce traffic in the CBD to a couple of higher level planners. We were going to retrive NYC's exhibits from the American Planning Association conference -- that is why we did not take the subway. The other planners pointed out that ALMOST EVERY vehicle on the street was a truck making deliveries, a service company van, a taxi, a bus, or an emergency vehicles. We crawled for blocks in heavy traffic a saw very few private cars.
Can't do much about that. Messengers are already riding bicycles in Manhattan.
"I do believe that New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan."
First, how would people use all of those bridges and tunnels? Do you suggest that all people from Long Island go through Staten Island to get to New Jersey? Even if they're going to North Jersey? Even if the SIE and roads approaching the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano don't have the capacity to take that new traffic.
In addition, there are many situations where one has to take a private vehicle into Manhattan, such as official business, transporting items (I absolutely detest when people take large boxes onto the subway) and moving those who have a hard time standing for long periods of time or climbing long flights of stairs.
Not to mention transit capacity. The subways cannot take NEARLY all of the people who drive to Manhattan. In that case, large numbers of people would just stop going there, businesses would fail, and there go the neighborhoods.
First, how would people use all of those bridges and tunnels? Do you suggest that all people from Long Island go through Staten Island to get to New Jersey? Even if they're going to North Jersey? Even if the SIE and roads approaching the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano
don't have the capacity to take that new traffic.
These are not going to Manhattan, they are going thru Manhattan, and would benefit from corridors that were kept free of other kinds of traffic.
In addition, there are many situations where one has to take a private vehicle into Manhattan, such as official business, transporting items (I absolutely detest when people take large boxes onto the subway) and moving those who have a hard time standing for long periods of time or climbing long flights of stairs.
Indeed, there would always need to be exceptions, no plan is perfect, or even desireable from many points of view, but wouldn't it be nice to get some of that traffic out of the city. Even if it is only a day dream.
Oh that it would be as easy to build good transit lines as it is to draw them on them map.
Elias
"These are not going to Manhattan, they are going thru Manhattan, and would benefit from corridors that were kept free of other kinds of traffic."
How would you enforce the difference? Do you want to build the Lower Manhattan and Mid-Manhattan Expressways?
[Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there, and less of them would have cars.
I do believe that New York could survive quite well with out the automobile in mid and lower manhattan. I lived for many years in Manhattan and in Brooklyn, and the idea of owning a car never
entered my mind. If I would take a vacation upstate, I would rent a car.]
You are partly correct. Private cars really aren't necessary in most of Manhattan, at least in most cases. Residents and workers *could* get by without them.
BUT - the fact that people *can* get by without cars doesn't mean that they *want* to. Ban or severely restrict driving, and I'll bet you dollars for doughnuts that we'd soon see a corporate exodus that would put the Sunbelt migration of the early 1990's to shame.
(Do you really think that private cars are necessary south of Central Park? Very few people actually *live* there)
I guess all the apartment houses on the Lower East Side, Chelsea, Kips Bay, Greenwich Village, Stuyvesant Town etc..must be figments of my imagination.
..........somewhat a response to all of the threads etc... I agree with 75 % of the BUS RIDERS UNION here in los angeles ........
however the red line should have been the same type of rail used for the green & blue types with the green line
going straight into the airport like washington dc & marta in atlanta !!!
then the green could have gone to the beach ???...........the way the red line was put in & the type of system it was
& the over spending at the stations too fancy instead of ""just good stations" they "" missed the boat"" on everything
except the blue line...........lots of luck with the pasadena blue line at grade BLAG ......check out the webpages there
with the name < pasadena blue line > click on all of them to get the real confusion !!!!!!.
Salaam;
Now that you have read the posts on HTML, why don't you give us a link to the web sites you mention?
Tom
it is not too hard go to a major search emgine like yahoo enter .....Pasadena Blue Line ........
& they all should be right there !!!!!!
>>> it is not too hard go to a major search emgine like yahoo enter .....Pasadena Blue Line ........ & they all should be right there !!!!!! <<<
Salaam;
Of course anyone can search the web for all the sites that mention the Pasadena Blue Line, but a more direct link would be helpful to point out the article you are referring to and avoid the waste of time going through all the web pages. (Alta Vista registered 94 hits). Your original post did not even mention using Yahoo.
Tom
I found all of the PASADENA BLUE LINE sites easy under all major search engines I still dont know how
to make a macintosh g3 do a direct link inside this message box here....
& how do you highlight it so you can click it on ?? So instead i showed everybody where to go !!
& as best I could sorrry .......
??
So, include the address, that's not brain surgery and you are certainly capable of it. You can type after all.
This was not meant as a malicious message.
Just because they have a rule like that in Tokyo, does that mean its reasonable? After all you're talking about a country (Japan) that required Kamikazi pilots to wear helmets!!!
[Light rail and/or a commuter rail system would be more effective]
Indeed, Metrolink (the commuter rail system) has been more successful than most people would have expected. It's often been noted that a very low percentage of the jobs in the Los Angeles metro area are located in Downtown. While that's true, the point that's overlooked is that the metro area is so huge (c.15 million) that even a low percentage still translates into a lot of Downtown jobs in absolute numbers. Enough, in fact, to make commuter rail workable.
Kevin makes a good point there.
A friend of mine lived in the Hollywood Hills. area of North Los Angeles. The trek by car was one of going up a dirt-hill road (could've really used a Jeep or some other four-wheel-drive vehicle). His house was only about 1/2 mile up this road (it was near the famed Mulholand Drive), but there were homes way up there in the hills -- I'm talking about a mile's worth of driving up constantly winding (and barely paved) roads. This area is obviously the place where the rich and famous -- or both -- go to get away from the rest of civilization.
The way LA is laid out and it's precarious geological foundation makes it an unlikely candidate for serious rapid transit development.
Doug aka BMTman
Kevin;
You find it unfortunate that some people will not give up private transportation for public transport at any price. I find it not unusual at all.
I don't think you will ever bump into Donald Trump riding on the subway unless it is as a publicity stunt. If I could afford to travel everywhere in a chauffeur driven limousine, I would also.
The closest I can come to a chauffeur driven limousine is to drive my own car, and this is my preferred way to travel. Although I do not have the same hangups about public transportation as John Rocker, if the cost is the same in time and money, I will take my private automobile every time. In fact I will pay a premium for the convenience and privacy of driving my own car, so to get me into public transportation, it must be significantly cheaper and/or faster than driving my own car.
Those conditions exist in NYC but do not (yet) exist in LA. I am able to find all day parking for a cost of $1.50 in downtown Los Angeles, and the travel time is comparable with the public transport system.
Until recently (and I am not sure it has changed) the building codes in Los Angeles required massive amounts of underground parking for any new office building constructed. Large parking capacity encourages private automobile use. It is very difficult to get people to move from their cars to public transportation once there is already dependence on the automobile.
Los Angeles has tried some things to reduce traffic. In about 1990, the county and city governments stopped providing free parking for employees. In negotiations with the unions involved they provided employees with an increase in pay equivalent to 70% of the newly imposed parking charge. The idea was to promote car pooling so that if two employees shared one parking space, they would actually get a small gain. The local government has also encouraged large downtown employers stop providing free parking and to subsidize employee's public commuting expense instead.
But the downtown area is still easy to drive through (compared to Manhattan) and most consumer activities can be found in outlying shopping centers, so those going to downtown Los Angeles on other than a commuting basis use their own cars rather than public transportation.
You cannot expect people to choose public transportation through some sense that it is the right thing to do. There must be a benefit shown to the individual.
Tom
I keep on reading these threads about the LA Subways. Are they talking about Louisiana or Lake Arrowhead???
Hey Paul, remember that episode??
[[Los Angeles is a city that, in reality, has no true "center" where
people go to work.]]
I was in LA twice. Once with a carload of sailors who went to Disneyland, and once by myself (back in the '60s.... I took the Santa Fe from San Diego to LA.
I got off the train and looked around.
And I asked the cab driver, "Where's the city?"
You gotta have a city before you can have a good subway.
I now lives in North Dakota... talk about an empty place... even the Interstate has no traffic on it.
Elias
Elias;
Los Angeles has grown since the 60's when the building height limit was 14 stories, but the growth has come after the automobile was the main mode of transportation.
In New York rapid transit replaced the horse and buggy or walking. The competition is tougher now.
Tom
(Los Angeles is a city that, in reality, has no true "center" where people go to work.)
Downtown Los Angeles is the fifth largest central business district in the U.S. and Canada -- and the only one with more than 200,000 employed that is primarily auto-oriented (hence the traffic). It only seems small relative to the massive greater LA area. It is bigger than Downtown Philly or Boston.
You must remember that Los Angeles is structured much differently than New York. New York City consists of five counties with a population of over seven million, situated in a larger "Tri-State Area"; Los Angeles is a city of three million that fits inside a vast jigsaw puzzle of a county that also includes populous cities such as Beverly Hills, Culver City, West Hollywood, Santa Monica, Inglewood, Pasadena, Glendale, and a half-dozen others. The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State area, and is further flanked by another densely-populated county to the south, Orange County.
So when someone wants a realistic evaluation of population density and traffic patterns, it makes much more sense to talk about Los Angeles County than the actual city of Los Angeles. Therefore, the size of the downtown area and the number of people working there is not surprising. However, the entire Los Angeles area suffers from the effects of poor long-range planning and zoning. Most of the population arrived here during and after World War II, and few could have anticipated its explosive growth. As a result, the area is plagued with a large number of "mini downtowns" that wreak havoc with commuters during rush hour. A mass transit sytem would have to connect these areas with the large residential areas in order to be truly effective.
When I was a kid in Junior High in the mid 60's a friend of mine who went to LA described it this way:
"Its like Hempstead, only bigger!!!"
Then it would be like Nassau County.
Phoenix is similar to Los Angeles except it has very little water and LA has a nearby ocean. I've been to both places. LA I can stand; It is Phoenix that I absolutely detest.
wayne
Wayne,
How is Scottsdale? (Outside Phoenix) My sister lives there and is trying to get us to go there.
....100% agreement with you & I would like to add that......IF we had left the PE & trolley system alone we would
have not been in the mess we are in today .......the villans oil companies diesel & gasoline engine companies & all non
rail transportation vehicle companies & a corrupt state county & local government that knew better !!!!!
"The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State area..."
As much as you like or have been led to believe, it certainly doesn't.
("The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State
area..."
As much as you like or have been led to believe, it certainly doesn't. )
This is enough to bore even me, but just to get the facts out:
LA City -- perhaps 3.5 million.
LA County -- 8 to 9 million. New York City -- 7.5 to 8.5 million.
LA CMSA -- 14 million. New York CMSA -- 20 million.
Will the LA Area surpass the NY area is size? Answer one: LA is already too spread out with long commutes, is hemmed in by the mountains, and is running out of land and water. It's growth will slow. Answer two -- if they build more transit, they can increase density as New York did, and build up rather than out.
I'm not sure I understand the logic of all this: 1) What leads you to believe that the population growth of Los Angeles will slow? What do you base this belief on? 2) Since Los Angeles is already overly spread out, and perhaps overpopulated, what is to be gained by "building up" and increasing the density? If one were to assume that by "building up", the outward growth would subsequently slow or reverse, I could see the point, but unfortunately, that has little to do with reality. Increasing density will only add more congestion and depletion of scarce resources.
(I'm not sure I understand the logic of all this)
I'm quoting two different predictions by two sets of predictors. I'm not sure which is right, but I suspect LA's growth will slow, and not exceed that of the NY area.
>>> Since Los Angeles is already overly spread out, and perhaps overpopulated, what is to be gained by "building up" and increasing the density? ... Increasing density will only add more congestion and depletion of scarce resources.
Elliot;
The building up with increasing density makes rapid transit more feasible. Look at the high rise apartments that have been built along Wilshire Boulevard near Westwood. They were not there twenty years ago. If high rise apartments like that were built all along Wilshire Boulevard, right to the ocean, it could support a Wilshire subway line.
This assumes that the Wilshire subway would go to somewhere these people wanted to go. That means a developed transit system, not one line. It is really a problem of timing. High density does not work without sufficient infrastructure, and until there is high density, no one wants to foot the cost of building the infrastructure.
Tom Bradley and the subway boosters were ahead of their time. To a certain extent they were looking at New York and Chicago and seeing rail rapid transit there, plus seeing cities all over the world building subways, and thinking we have to have a subway here to prove we are a world class city. As they looked forward they saw the day that freeways could no longer handle the traffic, and believed with the lead time necessary to build a subway and the rate of inflation it was proper to build the subway then. They didn't foresee the end of the cold war which killed much of the aerospace industry, caused the green line to flop, and forestalled the complete overcrowding of freeways those workers used, the rise of telecommuting, nor the malfeasance in building the Red Line which led to great cost overruns.
Tom
[You must remember that Los Angeles is structured much differently than New York. New York City consists of five counties with a population of over seven million, situated in a larger "Tri-State
Area"; Los Angeles is a city of three million that fits inside a vast jigsaw puzzle of a county that also includes populous cities such as Beverly Hills, Culver City, West Hollywood, Santa Monica, Inglewood, Pasadena, Glendale, and a half-dozen others. The population of the County undoubtedly exceeds that of the New York Tri-State area, and is further flanked by another densely-populated county to the south, Orange County.
So when someone wants a realistic evaluation of population density and traffic patterns, it makes much more sense to talk about Los Angeles County than the actual city of Los Angeles.]
You also have to include metropolitan areas. Los Angeles is a city of about four million, in a county of about nine million, in a metropolitan area of about 15 million. New York is a multi-borough(county) city of about eight million, in a metropolitan area of about 20 million.
"...with a lower population density per square mile than New York City"
Actually, the Los Angeles region is the densest in the United States. Even denser than the New York Region.
You may be right, Pigs, but it makes me scratch my head to figure out how that is possible. Los Angeles is a city where the single-family home reigns supreme. Additionally, Los Angeles has height and building size restrictions that you wouldn't find in New York; few apartment houses in Los Angeles are taller than two stories. Los Angeles also has wider streets and sidewalks, houses with large front and back lawns, and alleys between the streets.
One thing that could make the population density of L.A. appear bigger, and thus skew the statistics, is that L.A., in general, does not allow for mixed-use construction. Stores and other commercial buildings are not often found on the same streets as the dwellings.
The "suburbs" are similar in both cases.
I think the matter is explained by the fact that there's more empty space in the New York area.
As for cities as political entities, I'm sure that NY has a higher density, but center city statistics are meaningless. Some cities control their entire metro area, others control but a small piece of it.
Actually, I agree with you. Statistics are meaningless (or perhaps just misleading).
..But the heart of the matter is this: In the New York area, daily commutes are mainly pointed in the direction of Midtown and Lower Manhattan. Yes, there are some commercial centers in the other boroughs and in New Jersey, but the vast majority of workers gravitate towards Manhattan. In the Los Angeles area, I seriously doubt that a MAJORITY of morning commuters are heading towards Downtown Los Angeles.
Center city statistics are meaningless for regional comparisons, but no one is saying that we should build a subway from Morristown to Croton (OK, the RPA IS saying it, but that is another matter). The subway is in NYC, which is much denser than LA City of region.
Besides, it is the size and density of the DESTINATION that matters for rail transit, not the origin. You can always park and ride from home. Manhattan south of 60th St makes mass transit work.
I have also heard that Metropolitan LA is denser than Metropolitan New York, because the suburbs are denser in LA. LA is too low density for transit -- but too high density for autos. It is like Staten Island.
One more point -- what do people mean by Metropolitan, the PMSA or CMSA? People get them confused. If you are comparing the New York CMSA with the LA PMSA (LA County), you've got a bad comparison.
What do PMSA and CMSA stand for and what is the difference? What do the PMSA and CMSA for New York consist of? What about LA?
[What do PMSA and CMSA stand for and what is the difference? What do the PMSA and CMSA for New York consist of? What about LA?]
IIRC, PMSA = Primary Metropolitan Statistical Area, CMSA = Consolidated etc.
I don't know the technical definitions, but basically a PMSA consists of (1) the central city and (2) the closer-in suburbs. It may also include more distant suburbs that aren't themselves included within metropolitan areas of their own. For example, Nassau-Suffolk is not part of the NYC PMSA because it's a metro area of its own, but is within the CMSA. It's the CMSA that really matters, as it includes the entire commuter zone and, in effect, all areas within the central city's influence.
The Los Angeles CMSA includes the City of Los Angeles, the remainder of Los Angeles County, and Orange, Ventura, Riverside and San Bernardino counties*. As stated before, it has a total population of about 14 to 15 million.
The New York CMSA includes the five boroughs, and the following counties: Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland, Orange, Fairfield, New Haven, Hudson, Bergen, Essex, Morris, Passaic, Sussex, Warren, Hunterdon, Somerset, Mercer, Union, Middlesex, Monmouth, Ocean, Pike.** It's total population is about 20 million.
* = Riverside and San Bernardino counties are enormous in area, stretching something like 250 miles from Los Angeles. I don't know if the remote parts of these counties are within the CMSA, but either way they're not likely to have much effect on total population figures.
** = ISTR some proposals to add Sullivan, Ulster and Monroe counties to the NYC CMSA. If that happens, it won't be until the 2010 census.
"ISTR some proposals to add Sullivan, Ulster and Monroe..."
That is certainly a mistake! Monroe County is Rochester!
You must mean either Columbia, Delaware or Greene. Columbia is most likely.
"That is certainly a mistake! Monroe County is Rochester!"
Or East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania and that is in commuting distance.
Elias
Well, most Illinoisans seem to believe that Rochester and Buffalo are suburbs of NYC. (And Illinoisans have no excuse.)
["ISTR some proposals to add Sullivan, Ulster and Monroe [to the NYC CMSA]..."
That is certainly a mistake! Monroe County is Rochester!
You must mean either Columbia, Delaware or Greene. Columbia is most likely.]
Sorry, I should have been more clear - I meant Monroe County, Pennsylvania, which includes a good chunk of the Poconos. Look at the real estate ads in the Friday editions of the New York Post and you'll see why Monroe County would be a likely candidate.
You're right about Columbia County, I'm slightly surprised that it hasn't yet been included. Metro North's extension to Wasssic will make parts of Columbia County within feasible commuting distance.
In 1983 I moved from Long Island to North Dakota (a suburb of NYC only in my dreams) and my parents moved to Monroe County, Pennsylvaina. There are a fleet of daily commuter busses running from Scranton and Wilkes Barre PA to New York City. The ride is not all that long. And there is talk of restoring Rail service that far out again (Across the Lackawana Cut-off... if anyone has any hearsay on that one).
I am sorry if I offended anyone with my comment that no one really lives south of the park (in manhattan) [on another branch of this convoulted thread] I knew of the east side even as I posted my thoughts (there *is* a neighborhood that needs better service). Still, it was the central business district that I had in mind. I used to work on 34th street not far from 5th Ave, and a large limo would park near by, uniformed cheaufer at the wheel, apparently it was cheaper for someone to hire this man, than to pay for parking in this part of town.
Elias
[And there is talk of restoring Rail service that far out again (Across the Lackawana Cut-off... if anyone has any hearsay on that one).]
This is discussed by Lubos56 on June 24 in posts 72 and 73 on
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/newjerseypassengerrails
Bob
[And there is talk of restoring Rail service that far out again (Across the Lackawana Cut-off... if anyone has any hearsay on that one).]
This is discussed by Lubos56 on June 24 in posts 72 and 73 on
the NJ passenger rails message board.
Scranton Rail Service
Bob
(What do PMSA and CMSA stand for and what is the difference? What do the PMSA and CMSA for New York consist of? What about LA? )
This thread is getting even more boring.
Metropolitan areas are Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs). Unless they are really big, in which case they are Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Areas (CMSAs) which are divided into Primary Metropolitan Statistical Areas (PMSAs).
It is the CMSA which really is the NY Metro Area. It includes all of Long Island, the Hudson Valley up to Dutchess and Orange Counties, all of Northern New Jersey down to Mercer and Ocean Counties, and southwest Connecticut as far in as Litchfield and New Haven Counties.
The New York PMSA is political bullshit -- it consists of New York City and one-quarter of its suburbs (Westchester, Rockland, Putnam). Long Island wanted separate data, so it is the Nassau-Suffolk PMSA. Many other parts of the Metro area are in New Jersey and Connecticut, so ditto, they get their own PMSAs. Jersey City is the central city of the Jersey City PMSA, which includes Hudson County. Dutchess county and Orange County don't meet the commutation threshold for inclusion with NYC, but they are somewhat related to New York, so they are their own PMSAs, but in the CMSA.
In Los Angeles, LA County and Orange County are each their own PMSAs, and there are others besides. Riverside County is one. I'm not sure of the others off the top of my head. But the CMSA is metro LA as most of us would understand it.
The whole system is supposed to be revamped, but since there are political and funding formula implications, not much is expected to change. A geographer from Texas had argued that with less commuting to the central city, population densities and regional media markets are now a more relevant determinent of metropolitan and rural, and where one metropolis ends and the other begins. But they didn't go that way.
That just can't be true. LA is spread out over a huge area. The five boroughs along with nearby New Jersey comprise a relatively small area with a large population. And, when was John Stossel last on a subway?
Remember, driving from the north to south ends of Los Angeles County is about the same distance as going from New York to New Haven, and neighboring San Bernadino County is bigger than the state of New Jersey, so when you talk populations here, there's a big difference between city and county boundaries, unlike New York, where the reverse is true (one city made up of five counties).
Los Angeles County probably has the largest amount of developed land of any county in the U.S., but there's a lot of land in the county, period, and some of it up in the San Gabriels (and above the snow line in the winter months) is never going to be developed because it's too inaccessable to the areas where the jobs are located.
[And expenditures on subways are controversial, because they siphon money away from other transit projects (bus lines that serve the poorer neighborhoods) and other crumbling portions of the city's infrastructure (which was made worse by the 1994 quake).]
Los Angeles has that militant Bus Riders' Union (if I have its name correct) that's been mounting a campaign against subway expansion. It claims to oppose spending on subways for the reason you cite - more money for subways means less for buses. Yet I've heard that some people have doubts about its real motives.
Peter;
The Bus Riders' Union are not bus fans who prefer public transport over automobiles. They are the working poor who have no cars and depend on public transit. Their biggest gripe was not so much the building of the subway, which had its own budget, but the promotion and subsidization of commuter rail transportation from what they saw as the affluent suburbs at the expense of deferred maintenance for the bus fleet. They took this to federal court and got an order requiring the MTA to purchase new busses to improve bus service, which is still what the overwhelming majority of public transportation riders use in Los Angeles.
I am not aware of any hidden motives.
Tom
a recent LATimes piece profiled a classic bus route 5 runs direction of rush only weekdays. It brings nannys, maids, etc from the black and hispanic neighborhoods to the rich oceanside homes to tend the kids, houses. The LA MTA was quoted as unhappy with yje route because the buses are not as productive as they might be on other routes where they would be used back and forth all day. BUT, and this is exactly the Bus Riders' Union stance, this bus is a necessity for these workers who cannot simply move closer to their jobsites, whereas the commuter rail trains which serve wealthier workers who have chosen to live miles away sit idle in midday just as the buses but at a much higher cost. One way to graph all of this is $$ per rider by mode, and with very few exceptions buses are cheaper(much as I love trains!). The rail lines which are cost effective have sufficiently better throughput to justify the cost(transbay service for San Francisco for example)
(One way to graph all of this is $$ per rider by mode, and with very few exceptions buses are cheaper(much as I love trains!)
Not on a fair comparison basis, they ain't. The buses get their ROW paid for by tax dollars, not fares. Bus "stations" are also free along the sidewalk. Train stations raise the value of nearby property, and ought to be considered a taxpayer funded amenity.
Now just compare on an "auto-equivalent" basis -- the cost of buying, maintaining, operating, and insuring the vehicle, and collecting fares -- the stuff drivers pay for personally. In an area where transit is an attractive option, I think rail will pay.
Of course, if transit is basically a heavily subsidized welfare program for those too poor, too young, or too disabled to drive -- which is what it is in most of the country -- it doesn't make sense to set aside a ROW just for transit. Just run a bus, or a para-transit van, on the streets you already have.
But if the goal is to provide an alternative to the auto, and you've got land use to support it, I think rail pays. Perhaps LA's mistake was not going with a cheaper system to start in a smaller area -- ie. just the City of LA with light rail. Want to travel by transit...live there. If you've already got the tracks, and the union isn't raping you, I think commuter rail could work too.
Ah, yes what to account and what to ignore. Of course you are correct. OTOH one of my local gripes here in Oakland Ca is that BART by vacuuming up most of the capital AND operating funds has seriously damaged both SF MUNI and AC Transit. Each of them has a much lower cost per rider by the "official" calc's, but is starving for funds . Meanwhile BART is building the only airport link both dumber and more corrupt than airtrain.
As far as the goals of the Bus Riders' Union is concerned, this website has articles and links which make it pretty clear:
Bus Riders' Union Articles
Tom
According to LA MTA public statements, ridership has zoomed since the last piece of the Red Line opened--was 65k/day now 1120k/day. While I will not defend the exorbitant costs or the faulty workmanship(some earlier work had to be redone because it was not up to the bid/engineering specs), apparently it has found a market.
According to LA MTA public statements, ridership has zoomed since the last piece of the Red Line opened--was 65k/day now 120k/day. While I will not defend the exorbitant costs or the faulty workmanship(some earlier work had to be redone because it was not up to the bid/engineering specs), apparently it has found a market.
The line's extension just opened a few weeks ago. We'll have to see how well it does after the novelty of San Fernando Valley-to-Downtown L.A. rapid transit wears off
....dont forget how this nut ""STOSSEL" did not ride the BLUE LINE to see what a success it is ...!!!!!
also he ....""put down other light rail systems where they are working "" what the hell does this "" nut & idiot know"??
My comment on that idiot ""JOHN STOSSEL"" who has not a clue as to the average working american & especially
the poor underemployed unemployed & those who recieve federal state & or county public social services etc..........
Eveyone from the poor underpaid person to the one who has no home ""homeless"" against minimum wage etc..
Count on ""JOHN STOSSEL"" to get it wrong every time & he strikes out on many other issues as well.....
he belongs to a union but hates unions & makes millions & hates the working classes of people!!!!!! "JOHN STOSSEL"
can drop dead far as I am concerned !!!! now: if this idiot would do a BALANCED REPORT on los angeles etc...
why did he not ride the BLUE LINE which is a very good system tell the good bad & ugly of the los angeles rail
systems & why did he not ""go back" to the PE pacific electric railway system we once had here !!
For that "idiot" ""JOHN STOSSEL" to insist we continue the failed system of cars trucks & the BUS .................
to me he looks like a crazy madman & he is a very mean hatful person !!........ I dont like him at all !!
Well, Stossel is neither an idiot nor is he a madman, but he's wrong in trying to torpedo LA's subways before they even have a chance to gain a foothold.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right, Kevin. The piece could easily have been orchestrated by PR guys at GM, Ford or Chrysler!
The John Stossel 20/20 show was TOTALLY negative regarding rail transportation.
Granted, the line's ridership is not there. But that doesn't mean that it WON'T in the near future.
And certainly, if LA is to get people from behind the wheels of their cars some incentive plans would have to be implemented like how the NYCT has extra rides with certain MC card purchases, etc. Also, LA County has to get into an aggressive Ad campaign and push the advantages of riding their new subway line. Those are the types of things that could be done NOW to boost ridership on the Red Line.
And Stossel has too much time on his hands (or is just following the orders from the ABC Boardrooms) for focusing on a rapid transit line that hasn't been in service long enough for him to start critiquing it.
Doug aka BMTman
The thing about LA is, they are trying to go direct to capital intensive heavy rail without the land use to support it.
NYC was orignially based on walking, which meant more density than auto-oriented development. Then it got streetcars, and more density. Then it got Els, and more density. When the subways were built, there was enough density to support them. True, the subways were extended out to development areas, but they had a core of riders to support that development.
I think a set of grade-separated express busway lanes is the best bet for a spread out auto-oriented city. Buses can travel through the streets in less congested areas, then get up on the busways and go. If properly built, the busways could be upgraded to rail at a later date when ridership supports it.
For a humorous comentary on the origins of the current trainsportation mess in LA, rent a copy of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?".
[Can nothing break the USA's love affair with the automobile? The networks aren't doing anything about it. I wonder how many automotive sponsors 20/20 has...]
It has a lot more auto sponsors than transit sponsors, I can guarantee you.
Was John Stossell right? Although it is disturbing to rail fans, here is a long scholarly 1996 paper by the RPPI which supports him.
TEN TRANSIT MYTHS: Misperceptions About Rail Transit in Los Angeles and the Nation
Tom :-(
[Although it is disturbing to rail fans, here is a long scholarly 1996 paper by the RPPI which supports him.]
Ain't disturbing to this railfan as I don't think I will ever live or even visit Las Angeles and couldn't care less about its transit. (no offense Tom, Fred & Salaam!!!)
...officer the litle nut john stossell could have got the blue line right .....it is a success !!!!!!
I only saw the last two or three minutes of the piece as I was flipping through the channels, but I got the impression (like salaamallah said somewhere in this thread) that Stossel was slamming new rail transit in general, especially all the post-1970s light rail systems, and not just the Los Angeles system.
Every light rail system built so far has had significantly higher ridership than projected. Not just "showcase" systems like San Diego, Saint Louis, and Portland, but even systems not seen as particularly stellar, like Buffalo and Sacramento. Nevertheless, Stossel was portraying any investment in light rail anywhere in the country as an irresponsible and almost malicious waste of the taxpayers' money.
He trotted out some statistic about each system costing around $9 per ride, which seemed to be derived by taking the total construction and other capital costs of the systems, adding it to the operational expenses, and dividing the total over the number of riders. But if you're going to include the construction costs, how would freeways and other highways hold up to the same analysis?
And he came out with the usual smoke-and-mirrors "alternative" of the anti-rail crowd: busways, or express buses with traffic-signal changers. While there are legitimate advocates for busways and express buses, it seems such systems mainly get proposed as a reaction after a rail transit proposal or plan is produced. Everyone knows that while the highway/auto p.r. people are pushing the bus improvements as a more prudent way of spending tax dollars so long as the rail plan is still under debate or viable, if and when the rail proposal is killed, they will immediately:
1) become totally silent, stopping any further ads or other publicity in favor of the bus improvements, or
2) actively oppose the bus improvements as yet another wasteful boondoggle proposal from the same people that brought out the rail plan.
>>> Stossel was slamming new rail transit in general <<<
John;
You are absolutely right. He was only using Los Angeles as an example. The policy study that I posted earlier makes what seem to be the logical arguments against rail transit in the United States with the current infrastructure. It indicates for instance that the cost of an average round trip on Washington Metro (amortizing capital costs) is $20.75, and Atlanta is $14.06.
It does seem proper to use the capital costs of construction when comparing the cost of building a rail system to using existing roads. Capital costs are used when the alternative is a dedicated busway.
As a railfan I found the that study very depressing and hoped other subtalkers would review it and point out any flaws, and give opposing views. None did.
Tom
[As a railfan I found the that study very depressing and hoped other subtalkers would review it and point out any flaws, and give
opposing views. None did.]
The RPPI study is a rather long document, and I simply haven't had time to read the whole thing. It may well be that other Subtalkers are in much the same position. Even so, based on my admittedly quick skimming through the study, I have to concede that most of the points it raises seem basically sound.
My reaction can be summed up in two words - BIG DEAL. It should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone that rail transit is not a one-size-fits-all solution. In large, densely populated cities such as New York or Washington, with large downtown job concentrations, rail transit is vital. In places like Los Angeles, it has a more limited role, and in many cities it is wholly unworkable. What that means, as far as I'm concerned, is that resources should be concentrated on existing transit systems, rather than in trying to extend rail transit to places where it probably won't work. I don't see that as being some terrible revelation.
I didn't have time to read the study in its entirety, but I should point out that it was published by an activist group with rather extreme right-wing leanings (founded on the "objectivism" philosophy of Ayn Rand of The Fountainhead fame.) There may be some valid data within that study, but I would hardly consider it unbiased. When any group has an agenda to push, they can manipulate statistics to say just about anything that supports their goals.
-- David
Boston, MA
(When any group has an agenda to push, they can manipulate statistics to say just about anything that supports their goals. )
My experience is that "honest" studies tell the truth and nothing but the truth, but not the whole truth if some of the data contradict the preferred conclusions. Most "studies" just make the numbers up.
When I saw the header I decided not to bother--these are the folks who want all fire departments abolished to be replaced with volunteer firefighters! For fun however you might want to visit(http://trolleycar.org/) which is another far right outfit witrh members who actually like LRV's. They seem to believe transit is an okay service for government.
>>> another far right outfit witrh members who actually like LRV's. They seem to believe transit is an okay service for government. <<<
David;
I checked out the website, you posted. These people seem to be like most advocates of corporate welfare. They like light rail (so do I) and would use it if it is convenient, but fail to consider (or ignore) the fact that the subsidized cost of light rail is draining funds from more heavily used public transit such as busses for riders that do not have the choice of taking private autos.
Tom
...that """nut & idiot"" john stossel does not even ride the bus & or train in new york city !!!
what in the hell does this fool know about the transit dependent workers ??? nothing !!!!!
so who is he to KNOCK light rail transit that is working in many cities in the usa ????
www.trolleycar.org/ is the Free Congress Foundation, who were the originator and first Publisher of The New Electric Railway Journal. They are a conservative organization (the website is a sub off the Foundation's site. Oddly, they are boosters of rail transit in general, and admit that transit and conservative politics are not totally exclusive. They spun the mag off, and when Richard Kunz died suddenly, it folded. The Foundation re-instuted it as a Webzine entitled The NEW NEW Electric Railway Journal.
I found out today that NYCT was planning to parade a set of LoV's for the inauguration of the 2000 Subway Series Games.
Apparently problems arose when the units constantly blew their fuses. Most of it was attributed to the fact that the cars are mothballed for too long a period w/o being run.
This idea was shelved before it even got going.
Doug aka BMTman
That's unfortunate. Well, that kills the yearly excursion on the IRT...
-Stef
NOT TRUE AT ALL. The LO-V's do not constantly blow fuses. In fact, I was in them on Monday and on Thursday to change a fan and, EVERYTHING ON THEM WORKS. The cars are operational and for those interested, The ONLY reason they did not run was mainly due to the B derailment last month, The shop is too busy with regular projects and now the derailed train. They did not have the time to inspect the LO-V's . THAT IS WHY THEY WILL NOT RUN THEM TODAY... NOT BECAUSE OF BLOWN FUSES OR ANY OTHER MECHANICAL PROBLEMS.
-Mark
Thank you for giving us the full details Mark. However, it was one of "your own guys" who told me about the fuse story. Guess he got things misconstrued.
Too bad the LoV's couldn't have been inspected in time. Another year to wait for a LoV nostalgia trip...
Doug aka BMTman
Does that mean maybe a lo-V fan trip is forthcoming?
From a "reliable source": this idea never got beyond the embryonic
stage because of pr/marketing/financing issues. The mechanical
condition of the cars and/or inspection schedules was not a factor.
>>this idea never got beyond the embryonic
>>stage because of pr/marketing/financing issues...
But we DID have a FIRST Nostalgia Train Run
in June... atleast ONE got past the "embryonic
stage"..
Oh wouldn't it have been something for the teams to have traveled by train from stadium to stadium ! The "subway series" would have made the front page of papers all around the counrty.
All the switching that would be required would be another matter.
Mr t__:^)
Does that mean that all hands are on deck to fix #2805's broken nose?
Or are they taking the car apart for the NTSB to examine...
BTW Where did they get the spare fan from?
wayne
I did some railfanning this past Monday. Here are highlights
1. The C line was plagued with R38's
2. I boarded a 2 train where the whole train did not have AC. Lead car was 9113.
3. 149-GC is a very busy station.
4. The R142 were not out on test mode.
5. A couple of 5 trains were laid up at 149 and YS.
6. On the D express from 125-59, these group of guys were talking about the old C train with fans and straw seats. They said the conductor had to come out in order to close the doors. They mentioned that the train was fast. Was this the R10??? Lead car on D was 2592.
7. The roll signs inside 2592 were unsual. Half R68 and Half R68a type signs.
8. Rode a Slant R40 down to Sheepshead Bay. The Slants should stay on the Q.
9. Waiting for the A during midday is hell......... This was @ ENY.
3Train#2001Mike
Regarding item #6.....
The cars with the fans and straw seats would have been the R1-9 series. In the early 1960's the straw seats were replaced in many cars with vinyl and even later with plastic panels. The conductors stood between cars to operate the doors on these cars too.
I take issue with item #1 Lots of R38's are on the C daily. They are interchanagable with R32's. If you see lots of R38's on the C, chances are you will see R32's on the A. The R38 is a dependable piece of equipment as far as I know. I would say that the A line is plagued with R44's!
Cars 1-3 were on track 32, right next to the Northwest Passage. Funny, I saw it in the morning at 11:00, it was being cleaned out (must have just arrived), and when I returned at 3:00 they had just turned out the lights (I guess they forgot for 4 hours).
It appears the controls are on the left instead if the right, are they?
According to some of the posts here, Friday, July 7, 2000 is the very last day the the single un-air conditioned R-33 cars on the #7 train operate in passenger service for good. Because of this, I dedicated my entire afternoon to riding these cars on the #7 train, and what a day it was! I rode the "express-local" and that train really cranked up some speed! I stood in the open doorway on the threshold plate holding on to those handles and soaked up the roaring and clacking of the wheels, the jolting, swaying, and speed of the train, and the crisp breeze rustling through my hair - that was a sweet ride, man! The only problem were the return trips to Manhattan - after an exhilerating express ride, stopping at every station was torture! Too bad the Flushing Line wasn't built with 4 tracks so express service could run in both directions simultaneously.
I will definately miss those cars and being able to enjoy fresh air on the elevated tracks!
The very last R-33WF I rode was #9335. The others I rode today were 9314, 9341 and 9342.
So these cars will never return to passenger service? They won't be added on again this fall?
BTW - why were the R-33WF's not removed during the summer of 1998, but were removed again last year?
Who's to say we can't take all the single r33-WF's
getting lopped off the 11-car sets and assemble
10-car trains from the extra singles?????
1SF9
The only 4 track eleveted in the entire system... Brighton Line... Sheepshead Bay to Brighton Beach. The only 6 track elevated in the entire system... Brighton Line... Brighton Beach to Ocean Parkway. The only 8 track station in the entire system... Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue.
West 4th St. has 8 tracks on two levels (you didn't specify "elevated" for that one! :-)
How many tracks did Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction have?
Welll, if we're getting carried away, Times Sq has 18 tracks on 6 levels - or maybe 3 levels if the 7th Ave IRT, the Broadway BMT and the 8th Ave IND are all at the same depth.
Oh no!!! I forgot that one!!! Broadway Elevated has 5 tracks between Broadway - Eastern Parkway. One of those tracks diverge off to the L Line. The L Line has 5 tracks. Whoops... anything else?
Who was the person who specifically said that the R33 singles are off the road for good? I read the board just like you and I don't remember reading that! They'll be back to 11 cars after Labor Day. I think YOU are starting rumors.
Maybe I misread and maybe I didn't, but that's the impression I got. People were saying that the R-62/R-62A would be going to the #7 and with the R-142s entering service, that would eliminate the need for the R-33WFs.
I thought they would put all the R-36s on the 6, and put the R-62as on the 7 before the summer, and retire the cars directly from the 6 (or reassign them, I think the Corona cars are the redbirds in the best condition).
But you're going to need several trainsets of R142's in full time service (not just one on its' 30 day testing phase) on the #6 before you can actually transfer excess R62A's to the #7. The R33 single cars will be gone when every redbird train is removed from the #7 line, and the #6 line assigned R62A's is not enough cars to replace all the redbirds on the #7.
It seems that whenever there's extreme hot weather, '7' trains don't carry that one non-air-conditioned car. You may remember the prolonged heat wave that marked the summer of '99, whereas '98 was a relatively cool summer, much like this one- so far. I recall the summers of '93 and '95 also being exceptionally hot, so the '7' either carried on with only ten cars, or they somehow substituted an a/c car for the usual non a/c one.
Back in the infamous Summer of Sam ('77), Mayor Beame ordered the TA to trot out all its' air-conditioned cars for the passengers' comfort. Of course, that was before most Division A cars even had it!
In the summer of 77, None of the A Division cars had it. They started AC-ing the R-33 9200 series cars first in 1978 on the 6, and worked there way out from there on the R-33s, R-29s and R-36s over the next few years (The R-26s and R-28s AC jobs came later)
I've spotted brand spanking new R-142As at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers New york on Thursday July 6,2000. I saw three five car sets of the new batch of cars. I know the car numbers to two of the sets. They are car #7226 - #7230 and #7231 - #7235. If I get to see more of them I'll keep everyone posted.
BMTJeff
That's what I was doing when the C-3s for the LIRR were coming in. Somewhere I have a list of all the cars and their arrival times in the plant.
Service on Metro-North's Harlem Line extension to Wassaic will begin tomorrow,July 9 when train no.9910 departs Wassaic for GCT at 625am.
Trackage between MP 77 and MP 81.4 previously designated as "Wassaic Extension" will now be redesignated as "Harlem Line." Block Limit Stations at PAWL (MP 64.1) and BROOK (MP 77.0) are out of service. New Block Limit stations at PAT (MP 59.9) and BORD (MP 82.0) in service. Passenger station at TENMILE RIVER(MP79.5) in service replacing former STATE SCHOOL station at MP 78.9. Platform can hold a two car train. Passenger station at WASSAIC (MP 81.3) in service replacing former WASSAIC station at MP 81.3. Platform can hold four car train. There is a four track yard north of Wassaic station with a passing loop to run around trains. Yard Limits are designated as between MP 81.0 and MP 82.0. End of track is now at MP 82.4.
Manual Block Signal System Rules are in effect between CP 155 and BORD. Maximum speed will be 59 MPH.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is in response to an earlier query concerning the HP of Metro-North Engines:
101-106 GP-35 2000hp
201-218 P-32AC-DM 3200
401-403 E-10B 1000 (all electric,now retired and at North White Plains Yard)
543 GP-8 1500
605 RS3M 1200
750 GP-9 1800
2001-2033 FL-9 1800
2040-2046 FL-9AC 3100 (aka the Starships)
A single unit unrebuilt FL-9 can pull a four car train, if the train is more then four cars two units are used.
An FL-9 AC can pull an eight or nine car train though the longest coach hauled train on Metro North is currently eight cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Unless they have been rebuilt, don't the GP-35's give 2500 hp? Also wouldn't the E-10's give 2250 or 2500 hp.
Anyone know when the R42's inhabiting my J line will get those nice new black floors the R32's are now getting? I was on R42 #4798 yesterday, and it was in pitiful shape. Most R42's have poor floor conditions, and I'd like to see them fixed.
The R32's are worse. I don't see the R42's getting new floors till the R32's are completed.
No, many R42's are as bad as the R32's. But I guess the E line is more important.
You say toe-may-toe and I say toe-mah-toe. What can I say? My name is not Al O'Leary, the official TA spokesman. Wasn't he the guy who a few weeks ago said that the redbirds had the same door mod that the newer cars had and that the redbirds would be replaced (that means all gone) by the end of this summer? My point is this: I'm sure there are some R42's with worse floors than some R32's, but some suit in the TA made the decision that the R32's would have their floors replaced first. Why? Working for them for over 20 years and being a rail fan as well, I like to think I know their mindset. The TA is run like a business. And the fact of the matter is that business wise the E must be more important to the TA because it has higher ridership and because of this more frequent service. The E trains are packed. If you are standing in a slope of an R32 E train floor, many times that car is so overcrowded that you can't change your standing position. On an R42 line, in many cases you are able to change your standing position. Maybe the E riders are smarter in the sense if they have a complaint they complain to the TA complaint phone number and write letters more than the R42 riders do. I know this: I interact with a hell of a lot more riders on the E than I ever did on the M & J when I worked those lines. But I also heard a lot more bitching and moaning from those riders (especially from the M lines' Middle Village Crowd) than I'll ever hear from the E riders and those people have to endure a hell of a lot more cattle car like conditions.
The contracts to replace the floors are prepared by car class. Hence, the R-32s will be the first car class to have new flooring. I do not have the Gant Chart at home but I believe that the R-42s are scheduled for 2001-2002.
A few R-62 sets have new floors, and the old floors look pretty bad in many cars. Is the whole fleet being done now, or just a few cars?
If there is an R40/R40M/R42 with an especially mushy floor I will alert you to its car number. So far they aren't bad, at least not as noticeable as the R32s
wayne
I doubt that you'll find any as bad as the R-32 flooring. They are particularly bad because of an installation error (?) during overhaul in 1988. As of now, O believe that all cars with the exception of the R-46 will be getting new floors over the next 4 years (I'm not sure about the R-38s). The R-46 flooring, based on the testing I witnessed in 1991, should be around for many, many more years.
BTW: As always, if you find a particularly bad floor or any significant car defect (for that matter), I'm usually happy to report it to the appropriate maintenance facility.
Best way to post a html link and other stuff like that is to create the it in MS Word, save it as a HTML document. Open the file with Wordpad and copy and past it into the board. This is how I do it and it seems to work.
www
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?postform
To avoid using multiple programs, you could use Front Page express, view source, and copy and paste everything between the <body> and </body> tags. Don't need to save. I don't do this, I'm to lazy to bother, I just memorized the tags and save time.
You can do this with Word too.
I don't think you can do that with Word 6.0. It doesn't seem to have that option in the "Save As" dialogue box. I guess that was one of the features added to Word for Windows 95.
It was added to Word 97, not Word 95. Word 95 had a patch that allowed working with HTML pages, but I don't think it's still on the MS site since Word 95 has been supplanted by two new versions since.
Thanks for the info.
Posting links are easy. I'll use parenthesis' instead of the html < > symbols so it will show up:
(a href="http://url of link") NAME OF LINK(/a)
Why don't you do this:
<a href="http://url of link"> NAME OF LINK</a>
If you want to know how, replace < with < (lt=Less Than) and > with > (Greater Than). These are cap sensitive < will not work! In addition, you can type & 2 ways:
If it's not part of a valid escape sequence (that's what these are called) it will appear.
If you want the text of an escape sequence to appear, or you want to assure that it will appear in all browsers, use & to type & use &amp and so on.
There are a number of other escape sequences, like © which is © and you can also use escape sequences to enter letters using their ASCII codes: ¢ will enter character 0162. This would be the same as entering ALT+0162 on a Windows PC (with NUM LOCK on, hold alt, and press 0, 1, 6 and 2 in that order on the numeric keypad. This works with any ASCII code). So ¢ and ¢ are the same even though they aren't really (One was entered with the Alt+0162 combo and the other was entered using it's escape sequence).
Thanks alot!!! I was trying to find a way to store html codes so I could copy & paste when I needed it and didn't know how to do it. Now I do. Let me see if I got it right:
< >
sarge... why don't you keep the codes under your hat along with the list of the 10 most dangerous subtalkers.....
my "Sussquehanna" hat??
By the way, did you read my post about Lake Arrowhead or Louisiana? Do you remember what episode that was from?
susquehanna hat!!!!!!!!!! do you wear a hat made by the susquehanna hat company????
no i didn't read those posts... i've been blocking everybody's posts lately....
i'll have to check after i get back from an appointment...
It isn't a very good idea. Subtalk converts carriage returns to <BR> which does the same thing in HTML since the browser ignores carriage returns, although a CR does, in effect, close a tag, it doesn't do anything to text. multiple consecutive CRs are replaced with a <P> tag, which opens a paragraph container and (in the case of this tag, since it has no utility for nesting) closes the previous. HTML also ignores multiple spaces. That's why when you try to space paragraphs more than one line apart, they becomes only one line apart, and large spaces between words are replaced by only a single space. If one were to use your method, one would have to get rid of all the carriage returns except in text. The only sensible way to do this would be to use Notepad and turn of word wrapping, since the TEXTAREA here automatically wraps.
You can have multiple spaces and CRs by starting them with a <PRE> and closing them with an <PRE>
Another thing that SubTalk does to the text you type is strip everything inside a <SCRIPT> container. WebBBS allows the webmaster to disable HTML. In that case, any typed instance of < is replaced with < and > with > in this case, the script container needn't be purged. I don't know what happens with escape sequences.
Best way to post a html link and other stuff like that is to create the it in MS Word, save it as a HTML document. Open the file with Wordpad and copy and past it into the board. This is how I do it and it seems to work.
www
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?postform
www
www.nycsubway.org
How about you guys all use the Preview Message before posting your broken html?
-Dave
whenever i post a link, i preview the message, and then click on the link to make sure that it's working... then i come back to the previewed message... it's worth the effort to me as i always strive for perfection in my posts, although i generally achieve mediocrity...
I learned what little I know about HTML by looking at the source code of other people's messages and seeing how they got their links, images.etc. to work.
The following is about as much as I've learned so far:
Don't forget to visit the LIRR History Website
aaaaah, but Bob..... do you know the HTML to make it so that you can click on the IMAGE and go to the website?
(here's a hint - stick the IMG SRC tag INSIDE the A HREF parameters).
Using Word and saving it as HTML is so lame. Everyone here can learn basic HTML in no time - I have never once used an editor on any of my webpages. Never never never. Only my typing and copy-paste. So for an example of what you can do with just raw HTML and just an ever-so-basic knowledge of it, go to the only section of my transit improvement website that actually works, the Nostrand Avenue Light Rail webpage. C U LATR!
I've only used an editor for setting colors. Then I strip the META GENERATOR codes and such and work with the page manually. I'm not going to learn RGB color values and how to convert them to hex. Of course, that was before I knew one could use the name of the color.
[I have never once used an editor on any of my webpages. Never never never.]
I can only manage to find about one hour a week to "play around" with my website, so I always, always, always use an HTML editor (Adobe Pagemill). To each his own.
I use Adobe GoLive to generate my web sites. I could, I suppose make a good web page without it, but a good HTML program manages the whole website. If I move an image from one folder to another, the program will make corrections to every HTML page that has that link. It even knows what pages were changed, and uploads the new copies to the WebServer. You may check out my work at Assumption Abbey.
Now for your LRT map... Good Work! I too have been thinking of rebuilding the subway system, and have the same govt. maps that I thought would make a good base, so I am please to see how well yours have worked out.
Elias
Interesting thing about those USGS maps - sometimes they leave stuff out. For instance, the map I used as a base (Brooklyn Quadrangle) was supposedly "photorevised in 1981" (meaning anything that was new in 1981 but not on the original manuscript would be in purple since a field check was not done). But the Myrtle Ave. El tracks are on there. Anohter thing is that the track connection to the Broadway El is NOT shown. ust interesting tidbit
The photo recon on these maps is subject to intrepretation of someone who has never been there. On the St. Meinrad Quadrangle (Indiana) the older version did not show the handball courts. The surveyor was there on the ground and said "Oh, tohes are handball courts" and he did not draw them on the map. Later the spy satallite or whatever flew over, and recorded the images, and the redactor said "Oh, some new buildings here", and drew them in, where in fact they remained just handball courts.
From a satalite image it is probably equivical if an elevated train is or is not running on a given street, and since they are looking for additions or obvious gross changes it is easy to see how some redactor sitting in an airconditioned office somewhere inside the beltway would not erase an existing geographic feature.
Elias
I also think it is easier to add stuff than to take it away.
I can't use any editor since I use webtv and have no computer. I must use html. That is how I created all my following pages:The SARGE-my homepage
my MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAY
my Color Quiz
my assorted JOKES
my NUMBER TRICK
my LIVE WORLD WEBCAM page
my dirty pictures!!!
Ugh! My Ears! True, that is one way to do it. But by far, that is not the best!
HTML is designed to be simple. You may want to try it out on your own computer before uploading it to a message board. All you have to do is open a Notepad document and save it to your desktop as test.html
Then try some of the following commands out:
Bold is done by starting what you want bolded with <B> and ending your selection with </B>.
Italics is done by starting what you want bolded with <I> and ending your selection with </I>.
Links are done by starting with the destination of the site. For example, if you wanted to create a link to this website, you would type <A HREF="http://www.nycsubway.org"> NYCSUBWAY.ORG and end it with </A>. This is what you get:
you would type NYCSUBWAY.ORG
Neat Trick: Add <target="_new"> to the link, (meaning you would type <A HREF="http://www.nycsubway.org" target="_new"> A new browser opens to load the page. You may want to mention this in the text portion of the link: NYCSubway.org Home (In a New Window) This way, we can all keep the NYCSubway page open, and not have to keep hitting back, and wait for the message index to load.
Save the file again, then go to your desktop. Whatever your default browser is will load the page. There is lots more that you can do. There are plenty of good resources out there that can teach you the basics relatively quickly. Take care though: Don't go nuts with styles, or other quirky things. Things like Blinking Text (Netscape) and Marquees (IE), in my opinion, do not belong in a message board such as this. Many message boards do not allow HTML to post with, either. And remember our good moderator's advice Preview your message and test your links before posting!
..........I sure learned a lot reading you post ( s ) now if i can soon "" get the trick ""
as to how to load a transit picture inside the message box < in this area here >
then i got it made & i thank you .........
Salaam, you can't actually "load" a picture, all you can do is provide a link to one that will automatically come up. Here's how it's done:
<IMG SRC="http://www.members.home.net/cleverett/MEL_grad/MEL_grad_03.jpg">
will get you
(Hey, it gave me an excuse to post a picture of my daughter graduating from college...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice going Mouse, but how do you determine the size of the photo that will be posted?
Tom
That's based on the image size I start with. There are ways of specifying it in HTML but I haven't used them, since they may distort the image if done incorrectly (and I'm no expert, that's for sure).
My reference for HTML is D. J. Quad's Ultimate HTML Site - what I know I learned there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
question ...can you drop in a picture from the hard drive HD like from a macintosh g3 for example ??
also if you come off of your "" harddrive"" can you do that also ??
not on a message board. the only way to get a picture on here would be to upload it first on some other website and then post a link to it here in the IMG SRC tag. all of my pics are loaded first onto websites and then linked here. a word of advice: if you don't have a free webpage directory yet, DON'T use angelfire. they have recently enacted java so that you can only view images stored on angelfire through angelfire pages. and so that viewers on SUBTALK wouldn't be able to see it. i found this out the hard way. i had a website that, well, didn't exactly comply with angelfire's terms of service (if you catch my drift) that had the main pages on one server and the images on angelfire. and then all of a sudden i start getting email that says my faithful viewers can't find their pics. so, it's all gone now (canniblaized, to have the space used by more hairbrained transit idea pages like the Nostrand LRT) but DON'T USE ANGELFIRE. a good place is 50megs.com. They will give you 50 megs of space so long as it is your REAL webpage, and as long as you don't use it for porn or hate sites. So go get a directory and start putting images on subtalk! in the meantime, a few pics from my websites....
actually on second thought i won't put those in here :)
have fun!
"they have recently enacted java so that you can only view images stored on angelfire through angelfire pages."
That's not Java. The server checks the referrer (URL of page where the image is located or the link was clicked), if it's on an Angelfire server, it loads the image. If it's blank (you entered the URL manually or used your bookmarks) or contains a non-Angelfire server, it loads the dummy image.
Why do you even bother posting this anyway? It will NEVER get to him! He's asked this question before, it's been answered and he's acknowledged the answers and still asks the same questions! I can't believe that such a person is even able to learn how to use a computer.
No, you have to have it uploaded to a web server. Most ISPs provide you with some free webspace; if they don't, you can get space from Yahoo, Geocities, or any one of a number of other places out there. My daughter's picture is on space my ISP provides.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
no! use 50megs.com they are the BEST!
. I am going to try it thank you .............
No, you're not.
..................???????????......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............
One question. I'm pretty good at html but I'm at a loss at how you were able to show the code on the post without it showing up as html.
I made a response to one of your other posts that explained this. You can also look at the source code to see how it's done, but my message explains it.
THERE WILL BE A CHAT IN THE #METROCARD ROOM TONIGHT, 7/1/00 AT 9PM.
To get into the chat, goto http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard using your web browser, but if you are using an IRC client, and only do this if you know how to, goto the irc.cjb.net server, channel #metrocard.
07/08/2000
On June 24th, Subway Buff reported a release of a Kozmo.com Metrocard (Return of Kozmo.com Metrocards #131476) to be sold at certain stations on July 3rd.
Has anybody seen these Metrocards? Do they look the same or different that the earlier Kozmo.com Metrocards?
Bill "Newkirk"
07/09/2000
I guess I'll answer my own question since I picked up two today at 28th St on the Bway BMT. They seem to look like the earlier ones, but the southbound agent gave me one with an expiration date 0f 04/30/01 and the northboubnd agent gave me one with 08/31/01.
BTW - How come only the southbound side has an MVM machine but the northbound doesn't?
Bill "Newkirk"
07/08/2000
As a former vendor at the Hoboken Festivals, i received in today's mail an announcement and vendor application for the festival. for your info:
Try Transit Festival 18 is scheduled for Saturday Sept.16,2000.
It was rumored on this board that the festival was cancelled this year. Well according to this notice, it's on!
Bill "Newkirk"
Now there's a conflict on Sept. 16th. Hoboken Festival and NYCT Bus Festival on the street at the Transit Museum.
A day trip could be made out of it. Go to the Transit Museum early and take the I.R.T. and P.A.T.H. to Hoboken for the second half of the day.
Peace,
ANDEE
Äll right! I'm definitely going this year (missed all of the ones since the 14th). Looking forward to the tour of the shops, if they have it again this year.
They where running the R142A all day on the No.6 Line making similatied Station Stops (Not In Service) along the No.6 Line from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge. The R 142A will also run along the No.6 on Sunday doing Test runs. The Train made a 8:45AM, 11:12,1:40PM,4:03 out of Pelham today.
Also I was talking with a worker from Kawasaki and he said the R 142A will leave E 180 Yard 8AM Monday meaning the train will NOT LEAVE PELHAM AT 8:08AM but will on Tuesday morning.
The R 142A will be at Grand Central around 10AM Monday where there will be a celebration and all the Big TA Bosses and Local Politions like Gov. Pataki and Mayor Giuliani will be there. Also after that they will meet the R 142 on the No.2 Line at Times Square. The train is supposed to be in service at Grand Central anywhere between 10AM -1 PM Im not sure of the time they will let costomers on to the train.
I almost forgot the R 142A did go Brakes In Emergency Northbound around Grand Central with NO cause found. This did cause a Minor delay in Uptown No.6 service.
The Redbird Car Club is gonna have a field day with this.
-Stef
...afraid of it's own shadow?
Does this strart a new 30 day clock?
The 30 day clock starts when the train goes in service which will be tomorrow.
Pelham Bay Dave, best wishes for your inaugural run of the new train on Tuesday! Wish I could be there. Hopefully I get to the City sometime during the next few weeks to catch a ride.
A new era begins for the NYC subway:
Remember the past.
Cherish the present.
Look forward to the future!
Thanks alot I will need it. Have that train for two runs! As long as the train can keep a schedule.
I don't recognize the last part. Is that original, or are you quoting someone?
(BTW: Don't forget to </Font>.)
It was original. My way of saying that while nostalgia is good, today's dreams are the nostalgia of the future. Or something like that!!
tg
Who the heck knows. I suppose anything's possible.
-Stef
Write it off as a rat hitting the trip. Can't let a little thing like a brake application cause more delays of their entry into service.
But that was the only problem with the train. I was on it tonight and I got some pics. Who do I send it to so it can be displayed on this website? I also got audio clips.
Here are some of the details:
It's a female voice that announces the stations and destinations. It's a male voice that announces "Stand Clear of The Closing Doors" and all of the available transfers. The door chime is too simple!
The train will run all night.
We have a female voice on the M-4's here in Philly. Not too hard to listen to, either. How do you guys like your female voice?
Chuck Greene
> Who do I send it to so it can be displayed on this website?
Me. You can send jpg file attachments. Try to make them around 640x480 -> 800x600.
-Dave
The LIRR's response to the Subway Series was p!@# poor, in my opinion. I boarded a westbound PW train, what was supposed to be the 12:31 from Broadway, hoping to make a 1:00 connection to Huntington at Woodside.
The train was 25 minutes late, making me miss the connection, because it was filled to near-crush conditions by fans heading to Shea for the subway series. At the very least, you had a real threat of injury both within the cars and from the large gap at the platform at Shea.
This problem could have been easily alleviated had the LIRR put on one extra westbound and one extra eastbound during afternoon hours, for a total of two trains per hour. After all, it does this to accommodate US Open fans in September...and those trains run to normal capacity anyway (with the extra train running nearly empty).
I know there are some LIRR guys in Subtalk. Would they care to explain why there's extra service for one event, and not for another?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Could it be that the LIRR identifies more with tennis fans than lowly subway type baseball fans? :-)
Tom
I suspect class-ism is part of it, but as I said, I'd like to hear what any LIRR professionals have to say about it. It's been suggested that perhaps the Open subsidizes the extra train service and the Mets won't, but that's pure speculation.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[re no extra LIRR service for Mets games, while there is extra service for the US Open]
[Could it be that the LIRR identifies more with tennis fans than lowly subway type baseball fans?]
It could be that the LIRR thinks that the "upscale" types who go to the US Open wouldn't lower themselves by riding the (ick!) subway, while the more diverse Mets fans have no such qualms.
Perhaps its a matter of scheduling extra trains. The US Open dates are known well in advance and the LIRR can make adequate arrangements. This "Subway Series" came up with short notice
[It could be that the LIRR thinks that the "upscale" types who go to the US Open wouldn't lower themselves by riding the (ick!) subway, while the more diverse Mets
fans have no such qualms. ]
Though not a regular LIRR rider, the LIRR trains I've been on have been far *dirtier* than the subways I ride every day. For example, I took one out to Ronkonkoma last summer that was so full of trash (newspapers, cups, discarded food(!), and 5 or 10 dried up streams of spilled coffee) you had to play hopscotch just to get to the door before you stuck to the floor and the train pulled out and you missed it. I'd rather take the subway than the (ick!) LIRR!
[[It could be that the LIRR thinks that the "upscale" types who go to the US Open wouldn't lower themselves by riding the (ick!) subway, while the more diverse Mets fans have no such qualms. ]
[Though not a regular LIRR rider, the LIRR trains I've been on have been far *dirtier* than the subways I ride every day. For example, I took one out to Ronkonkoma last summer that was so full of trash (newspapers, cups, discarded food(!), and 5 or 10 dried up streams of spilled coffee) you had to play hopscotch just to get to the door before you stuck to the floor and the train pulled out and you missed it. I'd rather take the subway than the (ick!) LIRR!]
Without doubt. Riding on an LIRR train that hasn't seen the cleaners' attention is truly a stomach-turning experience. It amazes me that people can manage to strew so much trash around themselves on a rail trip of one hour or so. My "favorite" is the Rolling Beer Bottle Chorus.
Metro-north doesn't have this problem, and they have bar cars!
Maybe that's why they don't have the problem - people booze in the bar car so there's no need for them to bring their own (I know, I'm not even close but it's worth a shot).
Why doesn't the LIRR have bar cars? The Ronkonkoma/Greenport and Montauk Branches esp. could use them. NJ Transit could use them also, especially on the NJCL and Port Jervis lines.
How do the MNRR bar cars compare to the Amtrak Cafe Cars?
The Metropolitan class: Seats go around the sides of the car, facing the middle, with a vertical pole with beer-holders attached. There's a bathroom in the car, as well as a cab for the engineer (its in a married pair), and in the middle section (between the doorways) there's a counter on one side with a place to stand at on the other. Easy to spot, one side of the car has no windows between the doorways. Im'd drawing on 3yr old memories here.
The Shoreliner class: Basically a shoreliner with a few seats removed and a hot dog cart bolted to the floor.
Kevin
I'm sure that part of the problem is that the LIRR has been doing track work this weekend on the PW branch east of Great Neck, requiring all passengers to take busses. The number of "occasional passengers" who were probably going to Shea and were not in the right location to board busses was probably the cause of your 25 minute delay. (There's also a pretty good chance that one or more of the busses got stuck in traffic and/or the LIRR missed their estimate on the number of busses needed for that run -- given all the passengers to Shea).
I have no idea why they chose this weekend to do that work.
As far as I've ever been able to tell, the extra service for the US Open exists for the Manhattan tennis crowd to go to and from the Tennis Center without having to potentially soil their tennis whites on the subway. (I'm at a loss for why people going to the US Open feel the need to wear tennis outfits and occasionally carry rackets -- I guess they think that there's a chance they'll be summoned as an injury replacement).
No wonder why I saw all those buses there at Great Neck on Saturday. Saw an old GMC bus as well as several school buses in service, and the unfortunate LIRR riders who got stuck riding these buses had no A/C.
No excuse for such poor service on the PW branch on that day. I dislike that branch anyway for it's once an hour service on weekends, much better to stick with the Main Line and Babylon branch. Everything north shore on the LIRR stinks.
Of course if you were going to Shea, then that's the only LIRR branch to take. With LIRR probably better taking Main line to Woodside and then catch the #7.
For you it probably would've been better to take the bus to Flushing and then #7 to Woodside and catch your train. Or get a bus to Jamaica and catch the LIRR there. PW branch service is slow and stinks period, even though I live closer to that branch I prefer the main line. And on weekends PW branch trains are packed anyway, because they run ONLY once an hour, which in my opinion they should run every half hour like most of the other lines in electric territory.
I'm signing off for the night. Off to Branford, for another day of labor intensive work on my baby (the R-17 that is). Maybe I'll get lucky and manuver her around the yard, since she's out of the shop this week. Hehehe. This railfan never gets enough of the NY Subway even if the car's 80 miles from home. I'll see what I can do for her. I'll report when I return home late tonight.
Farewell My Friends and God Bless,
Stef
The T/O of my R train today stopped right in front of the signal (10" away) and caused the trip arm to go down. When the signal further ahead cleared, the closer one did not. The T/O proceeded past the red signal. My question: Why did the closer signal not clear?
You did not state where this occurred. That would have provided a clue as to what had happened. The immediate signal was at danger, likely because there was a train ahead or one was crossing in front of you. When the T/O pulled up to that red signal, he obviously put his wheels over the insulated joint (IJ) on the signal rail. While the signal stayed at danger, he also entered the block protected by that signal. In doing so, he 'keyed' the signal, causing the stop arm to go down. This is normal operation for the signal system. However, it would have been a violation of rules for the T/O to proceed past the signal without permission.
This was on track GD1 just before the merger of the R and N. He proceeded past after the train had crossed and the subsequent signal cleared, though the immediate one did not.
As I said, once the train was over the IJ, the signal would not clear. Obviously, there was an N train crossing in front of the R train. When the N train cleared the block, and the switch was thrown, the second signal cleared.
Was the further away signal the "home ball", displaying two colored
lights? Was the signal he keyed an "automatic", with a single
red light? Was the prior signal at yellow? That section of
track is timed. A single red failure could be a defective timing
relay or circuit. If it was indeed the automatic before the home
ball, that's a tower-controlled approach signal. A failure in
the cable leading from the tower to that signal or a failure in the
tower's relay interlocking could also cause that symptom. It
would not likely be a track circuit failure as that should cause
2 red signals.
Prior signal: Yellow
Affected Signal: Automatic
Next Signal: Home, red-red until the N crossed, then Yellow-Yellow
OK, that's what I thought. My list of probable causes stands...oops
I forgot one: there are indicating contacts in the stop arm box
that tell when the arm is all the way up and when it is all the
way down. If one of those contacts fails, the associated signal
will not clear.
As one who loves baseball as much as I do trains, I was most fortunate to be able to attend both Mets-Yankees games yesterday. And (naturally), I traveled by subway.
I was at Shea Stadium by noon. The #7 line had 10-car trains. After the game, there was additional express service between Main St (or Willets Point Blvd) and Times Square. The afternoon service was so frequent that delays occurred after 45 Rd-Court House Sq.
After seeing the number of trains on the #7 line, I was expecting a similar amount of service on the #4 line, but that wasn't the case. I was at Grand Central about 6:15 PM, and #4 service appeared to be every 10 minutes. I was at Yankee Stadium by 6:45.
When the second game ended, and I got to the D train platform about 11 PM, a D was waiting-as were police and transit personnel to direct smoother/faster loading. After transferring to the E at Seventh Av, and taking the Q83 bus at Parsons/Archer, I was home at 12:30 AM.
I had my camcorder with me, and took some shots on the platforms
at 74 St-Broadway, Willets Point-Shea Stadium, and 161 St-Yankee Stadium, as well as on the #7 between 103 St and Willets Point eastbound, and between Main St and 103 St, and 33 St and Hunters Point Av westbound.
For a baseball fanatic, I still can hardly believe that I was in 2 ballparks in the same day - with 55,000+ others! As a trainlover, I'm glad that I could take NYC Transit to get around, and not have to deal with traffic and parking hassles!
Did any other SubTalker go to both baseball games?
The new R142's are designed to have wider doors to let people on and off the train faster. About a month ago, someone posted that the doors should cover 50% of the sides of the train to get maxiumum door space at the sacrifice of the windows. Instead of that, why don't they do like London does and place the doors on the outside of the train so that window space isn't compromised? Did this not cross their minds becuase they have a set way in their minds on how a subway car should look? Having wide doors like in London will make getting on and off a helluva lot faster than it is now.
Outside-hung doors have been used before on NY transit equipment, specifically, the "C"-type el conversions for the BMT, and the "MUDC" el conversions used on the Manhattan els.
The problem with outside-hung doors is that it creates more opportunities for rust, corrosion, water leaks, and stuck doors.
Those are good points, I never thought of them. Do any of our fellow Londoners have any observations on outside hung doors in the Tube?
someone posted that the doors should cover 50% of the sides of the train to get maxiumum door space at the sacrifice of the windows.
More advertising space to sell.
All the prewar cars except the BMT articulateds had glass at the door pockets. Many were later painted over or replaced to display advertising.
Question: Does the LA Metro have ATO? Reading some messages here recently about the opening of the new extension implied that they don't (something like, "...and the T/O pushed the lever forward to make the train go..."). Why would a new system like that not have ATO?
Comment: The thread about the 20/20 report was talking about how low the ridership was on the Metro. Well, IMHO, I think that the LA MTA doesn't expect or really want high ridership. Why? Becuase they don't even have turnstiles to get on the system. You have to hold your ticket the entire time so that a cop can walk through the train and check everyone. If the trains were crowded, no one would be able to walk around and check everyone. And there would be a lot of people taking advantage of this and not pay to ride. So having high ridership would not really help bring revenue to the system. What does everyone think?
POP---proof of payment is fairly common in most of the "recent" LRV systems in the US and although it may encourage some fare evasion--the savings over cranky fare gates and 49k/yr clerks (BART) to tell you to use the change machines is significant In turn most of these LRV systems have no physical barriers to the platform area. Thus a far cheaper project from the get go. Using the same logic for the Red Line in LA given that it intersects with the Blue(LRV), seems logical to me. What the fares versus riders numbers will look like in a year or so is an interesting question. As I posted earlier the ridership of the Red Line nearly doubled with the new segment. 110k riders is not bad for a 17 mile line--after all BART has only recently reached 320k for nearly 90 miles of system.
>>> nearly doubled with the new segment. 110k riders <<<
David;
Don't believe everything you read. Those figures are from less than two weeks of the new service. We will have to wait a few months til the novelty of the new line wears off to see the real ridership figures. Part of the increase comes from canceling the parallel express bus, so it is not net new business to the MTA. To give the MTA the credit that is due, the Metro Rapid bus service connecting with the North Hollywood station seems like a good idea.
Tom
(Those figures are from less than two weeks of the new service. We will have to wait a few months til the novelty of the new line wears off to see the real ridership figures.)
Actually, we'll have to wait a few years. Did LA upzone to allow much larger buildings -- with less parking -- near the subway? Does the subway get you to enough places that young people and/or old people might choose to live there without a car? Does it run through non-depressed areas?
If so, you might get high rise development within 1/4 mile of the stations. If it's businesses or housing young singles and couples (no need to spend on schools or Medicaid), the property tax payments may eventually pay for the line. You need a change in land use, and zoning to allow it without red tape.
>>> Actually, we'll have to wait a few years. <<<
Larry;
If in fact the area changes and that brings new riders, it might be a result of the subway, but what I was pointing out was the doubling of riders immediately after the opening does not indicate there was a large group of potential riders waiting with baited breaths for the gates to open. It is inflated by the curious and current MTA riders who have had their (faster) express buses terminated at the Red Line rather than continuing to downtown Los Angeles.
Tom
>>> Does the LA Metro have ATO? <<<
The light rail Green Line is designed to be fully ATO. It is on a closed line with no switches or grade crossings. It was decided that the public would not accept ATO (as with San Francisco's BART) and therefore it is not being operated in ATO mode. The other light rail, the Blue Line runs at grade level (53 fatalities in ten years of operation) and therefore is not a candidate for ATO. The Red Line (subway) is OPTO, and IMHO less than state of the art OPTO (i.e. no closed circuit TV for the T/O). Too much of the money went into fancy architecture rather than technology
>>> Becuase they don't even have turnstiles to get on the system. You have to hold your ticket the entiretime so that a cop can walk through the train and check everyone <<<
This type of fare control is not that uncommon throughout the world, and is probably used in the majority of new systems. It makes it much easier to charge extra for added fare zones, and reduces the need for people to keep watch on the entries to prevent turnstile jumping.
If you look at the fact that the fare is $1.35 one way which could be reduced to $0.90 by buying ten tokens at a time, and the fine for failure to have a valid ticket is $250.00, plus the fact that the fare beater interacts with a law enforcement officer and may have a warrant check run leading to arrest on the scene, there is sufficient deterrent to fare beating.
>>and
the fine for failure to have a valid ticket is $250.00, plus the fact that the fare beater interacts with a law enforcement
officer and may have a warrant check run leading to arrest on the scene, there is sufficient deterrent to fare beating.<<
Yeah, I know that would deter fare beater, but what if the train was packed? How could an officer even move around to check tickets? This is the point I'm trying to make, having a crowded train won't help LA enforce fares, so therfore they don't expect to ever have high ridership.
>>> having a crowded train won't help LA enforce fares <<<
Rob;
You have to keep in mind that ticket checks are done on a random basis. Not every train is checked, and those checked are not necessarily checked 100%. Since an arrest rate of 1% of fare beaters (and collection of the $250.00 fine) is sufficient to offset the other 99% that are not apprehended with the lower cost of enforcement compared to monitoring turnstiles it is a sensible system. Fare checking has to be done just often enough to remind the honest riders that someone is looking.
In the case of jam packed trains, random checks can be made on platforms (there are signs saying ticket required beyond this point) of a percentage of riders waiting to board or alighting from trains.
The Blue Line is jammed at rush hours now, so the choice of this system it is not based on expectation that there will be no crowded trains.
Tom
.......I have watched here people totally confused about how to buy a ticket for round trip single trip etc......
you could have an old ticket one way for the cheapest fare & go all ways all day long ..............
"" then if you are jammed for a ticket show the expired one"" the transit cop does not have the time to check each
& every ticket to se if you have the right one !! I will bet even forged tickets run amuck & old expired tickets pass
each & every day !!! What I would do is charge one dollar & the ticket would be a different color every day of the week with clear markings..!!
since they dont have a system like the marta fare gates & SAN FRANCISCO & MARTA it is a failed system.
However most of us at least buy a ticket ONE WAY .....................( oh well ) ............
It works quite well on the Newark City Subway. They just stick a cop at the foot of the escalator at Penn Station (Newark) to catch people leaving the system. The "I forgot to stamp the ticket" dodge seems to work for now. (The cop just confiscated the ticket from the woman carrying it.)
In Germany, they use the most sensible system. The fare is about the equivalent of $1.30 if you buy the ticket before getting on the bus, trolley, or train. If an inspector gets on (plain-clothes, loud announcement once the door closes) and you don't have a ticket, the fare is about $25.00. If you don't have that, off to jail you go. And I've seen it done during rush hour on flexible accordian busses filled with maybe 150 people. A group gets on at one time and off they go inspecting everyone. It's like passport control between countries on the railroad.
In Baltimore, it's even tougher. If you don't have it you getting the equivalent of a speeding ticket. Though I once saw someone handcuffed and taken away in a police car. I like the German way better, personally. It's just a much higher fare.
>>> If an inspector gets on (plain-clothes, loud announcement once the door closes) and you don't have a ticket, the fare is about $25.00. If you don't have that, off to jail you go. <<<
Carl;
That is not a fare of $25.00, it is a fine. The Germans accept that type of instant justice. I remember one time in 1962, I was pulled over on the autobahn for some minor infraction. I expected to get a ticket and have to appear at the equivalent of a magistrate's court, but instead the policeman explained to me what the infraction was that he was stopping me for, told me the fine was 50DM (at that time $12.50), collected the 50DM fine on the spot, and gave me a serial numbered printed receipt for the payment. I do not know what the procedure would have been if I had not had the cash on hand.
Tom
I guess it's a fine (the transit one), but no record is kept and as long as you pay, you never wind up in court. I think the traffic thing is recorded against your driving record, but it is convenient to just pull out DM150 (currrently) or so and pay it on the spot.
The Baltimore MTA policy on the Light Rail is as follows:
1. The MTA Police Officer will offer to let you off at the next stop and buy a ticket.
2. Give the officer any guff whatsoever and you get the summons. Keep it up, and you get yourself arrested.
3. Have no ID, the officer checks your identity by radio contact with the judicial system. If an outstanding warrent is discovered, the ticketless pasenger is arrested on the spot.
I've only seen the handcuff removal once in seven years.
The MTA Police are sworn Police Officers with all Maryland arrest powers.
Mentioning "53 fatalities in ten years of operation" brings up a good pooint.
NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM WAS THE FAULT OF THE BLUE LINE!
>>> NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM WAS THE FAULT OF THE BLUE LINE! <<<
Steve;
All though it is true that in each and every case, investigations cleared MTA personnel of any wrongdoing, and in every case the deceased or the driver when there were multiple fatalities ignored a safety device or signal, some aspects of the design of the Blue Line have contributed to the problems.
It has been pointed out that because it runs parallel to the freight line, motorists get impatient waiting for a long freight to pass, and will pull around the gate as soon as the freight clears the near track, only to be surprised by a fast (55 mph) train on the other side.
Where the ROW runs parallel to a busy street there have been left turns in front of trains with motorist apparently not realizing the gate was down because he was looking at the end of it. (He still had to ignore warning lights.)
Pedestrians seeing a train in a station have gone around gates to get to the station (an island station between the tracks) and have been hit be a train coming in the other direction.
To try to correct some of the problems they are building an overpass over the line at Imperial Highway, one of the busiest streets; they are installing gates that will close off both sides of a street to avoid motorists driving around a lowered gate, and designing the pedestrian gates to be harder to walk around.
Tom
I used to live in Merrick before the tracks were raised. They used to kill off about one commuter a month there. Just as you have described it, the commuter runs out behind the departing eastbound and gets clobbered by the incoming westbound. And LIRR does 80 mph on that line. Call it the route of the Dashing Dead.
Well it is difficult to protect people from their own stupidity.
Elias
Who needs biotechnology? This is eugenics at work.
What's up with this station.It smells like urine, the lights are dim, it faces a cemetary and the station is in a dead end street with cinder blocks boarding up the windows.
How can tha MTA let their stations fall in such deplorable conditions? Not only for the tax payers who pay for the comfort and service but for their employees who have to work in these derelict conditions for 8 hours at a time.
I walked outside to see the neighbourhood and was slightly intimidated. Which area is this station in? It looks pretty rundown.
It's in Bushwick.
Wilson Ave was the station that had a majority of its steel roof STOLEN over a period of time in the early 90s. Photo of the station (sans roof), along with an (L) train, appeared in USA Today. A NYCTA first; it was the first station to have had it's roof stolen!
What do you mean by stolen? At night when no one is looking people would come in and take off with whatever they could.
Is that not quite impossible. Sounds odd!!
Hey, that's nothing!
Sometimes the TRACKS of the LIRR Bay Ridge branch will be MISSING (i.e., STOLEN) if the line is not used for a lengthly period.
Believe it or not!
Doug aka BMTman
You think thats something. I know a police station house that had all its toilets stolen. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!!!
what's this, summer reruns? 8-)
Was it in Flushing?
RIM SHOT!!!!!
(((DOUBLE RIM SHOT))) Oh, POO!
(((wayne)))
[You think thats something. I know a police station house that had all its toilets stolen. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!!!]
According to an article in the Times, at one stationhouse in Harlem (IIRC the 30th Pct.) the detectives have to bring in their own rolls of toilet paper - and lock them in their desks so no one takes them.
[I know a police station house that had all its toilets stolen. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!!! ]
... It seems that the detectives have finally met their Water-loo!
RIM SHOT!!!
*** RIM SHOT **** HONK HONK HONK!
BOOOOOOO! Hisssss!!!! Ptui!!! :o>
[What do you mean by stolen? At night when no one is looking people would come in and take off with whatever they could?]
That's exactly what happened!
[What's up with this station.It smells like urine, the lights are dim, it faces a cemetary and the station is in a dead end street with cinder blocks boarding up the windows.]
Welcome to HELL!
You've reminded me of an entire car on the Flushing line in the mid 70's done in graffitti saying Welcome to Hell with some excellent artwork depicting the artists idea of hell. Yes, I hate graffitti but that was a work of art that couldn't have been in one night. Wonder how the "artist'' managed to keep track of that car long enough to finish it.
I'm surprised it didn't say "Welcome to Grant's Tomb". That's what Mets fans started calling Shea Stadium after M. Donald Grant traded Tom Seaver to the Reds.
Speaking of Seaver, yesterday marked 31 years since his imperfect game against the Cubs. Jimmy Qualls broke up Tom Terrific's bid for immortality when he singled to left with one out in the top of the 9th. Shea was bursting at the seams that night; the total attendance was 59,083 with 10,000 more outside.
I remember that one: I think it was #9645, but don't quote me on that.
South of 45 Road station is the Phun Phactory, alongside the southbound tracks. Some awesome murals abound there; the painters apparently own the building or are at least allowed to paint it. It is quite a sight.
wayne
[What's up with this station.It smells like urine, the lights are dim, it faces a cemetary and the station is in a dead end street with cinder blocks boarding up the windows. How can tha MTA let their stations fall in such deplorable conditions?]
Wilson Avenue's bad, but at least it's in a fairly out-of-the-way location and is lightly used. Compare it to Chambers Street on the J/M/Z, which is in even worse condition despite being located almost directly under the Municipal Building and having much higher ridership.
I'm not saying that Wilson should be neglected, but when it comes to setting priorities, Chambers should come first.
Actually, Wilson's not THAT bad - parts of it need some TLC but there's no threat of imminent collapse. The foul aroma came from the stairwells which had just been hosed down. I hadn't noticed any bathroom smell in previous trips there. The cemetery, well, it is what it is. The station house has a few leaks and they could have chosen some better materials for closing up the windows. But the real highlight of the station, its 28-color mosaics, is fortunately largely intact. Perhaps it will get a facelift someday.
wayne
The mosaics nice enough but can't hold a candle to Montrose or Bushwick/Aberdeen for nice color combinations. I always thought they were the liveliest of any of those multi-color mosaics. Since Chamers was mentioned in this thread I have to say I agree completely with an earlier post that said Chambers (J
Chambers St. looks a lot like the main building on Ellis Island before it was renovated.
People should really check out the wonderful blue and gold bridge tile design on the abandoned northbound side platform. Real marble still existsn there!
(Bridge plaques at Chambers St. BMT)
And there's an even BETTER ONE (pink marble pilaster and plaque are fully intact) at the very south end of the SOUTHBOUND track, right where the 1962 wall ends. Some of the ones on the closed n/b platform, especially near the south end of the station just need a good cleaning (the plaque) and steamblasting (the tile and marble).
There are a couple of pilasters that are cracked (near the north end) and one of the plaques needs work (make a mold of an intact one to recreate it or fill in the missing chunk).
An architectural gem is Chambers Street. It's VERY bad now, could be getting worse (concrete's powdering away), but there is work going on in the north end crossover. It may be a hint of what's to come. They have GOT to stem that leak, I don't care how they do it, they have to JUST FIND IT and PLUG IT. What to do about the ruined ceiling and columns? That's a tough one.
And here's another station that's starting to look like Chambers Street- CONEY ISLAND/STILLWELL! Leaks galore everywhere you look, peeling/falling ceilings, powdering concrete the whole 9 yards.
wayne
Well as of yesterday, it was on a flatbed at its original location. Time to say bye-bye?????
BM34x
07/09/2000
[Well as of yesterday, it was on a flatbed at its original location. Time to say bye-bye?????]
You don't mean that old IRT "headhouse" in the triangle at Flatbush/Atlantic and 4th ? The one that says "Atlantic Avenue" in the stonework? Please clarify.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you mean the old IRT Kiosk on the triangle -- chances are it will be back. But first the block it was sitting on has to get a much needed make over.
If I recall correctly, the kiosk is an historic landmark (it was the original entrance to the El structure that stood there at one time). So I believe it cannot be destroyed and/or removed. The flatbedding I'm sure is just temporary until the work is completed on the triangular block it sat on. The Parks department is going to make a nice waiting area (for bus riders), and the restored kiosk will double as a NYCT information station.
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, the space across the street that used to be the Flatbush Ave LIRR terminal will remain a hole in the ground until further notice, so I hear...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I thought there were plans to rebuild on top of the LIRR station again.
[I thought there were plans to rebuild on top of the LIRR station again]
Plans have been floating around for years if not decades. And absolutely nothing has been done. Sort of sounds like the Second Avenue subway.
They could always move Madison Square Garden there when they redo Penn Station.
Snapple Elements MetroCard returns!
per official bulletin will go on sale 7/17/2000 at 7am/ I am gruping stations to save space. Note that stations listed might not get the cards or supervision might transfer cards to a booth not listed.
The stations:
Chambers/WTC/Park Place-E,A,C,2,3
Spring-C,E
West 4- A,C,E,B,D,F,Q
14-A,C,E,L,1,2,3,9,F
34-A,C,E
42-A,C,E,1,2,3,7,9,N,R,S
110-B,C,1,9,6,2,3
116-B,C,6,1,9,6
125-A,B,C,D
207-A
Grand-B,D,Q
E Broadway-F
Delancey/Essex- F,J,M,Z
1 av- L
3 av- L
City Hall-N,R
Prince-N,R
8th-N,R
Union Square-L,4,5,6,N,R
23-N,R,1,9,6
Chambers-1,2,3,9
Canal-1,6
Houston-1,9
Christopher-1,9
18-1,9
96-1,2,3,9
Spring-6
Bleecker/B'way Lafayette-B,D,F,Q,6
Astor-6
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
51/Lex-E,F,6
59/Lex-N,R,4,5,6
68-6
103-6
Does this mean that the cards will be ub the MVM's in these stations (that have them) as well?
I do not know. We do not load the MVMs.
Two questions. Does Metro North go to Wassaic now? And when and where is the R-142 going into service?
MN does go to Wassaic now, the web site and schedule confirm it, and the R-142 will go into service tomorrow, check out Pelham Bay Dave's post on when (I forgot when, but there's some sort of ceremony at Grand Central at 10:AM).
The air conditioning units in Grand Central are on, they cool the station reasonably well, but nowhere near as good as Canal st.
(The air conditioning units in Grand Central are on)
I'll have to take a trip uptown on the third day of the next heat wave. A comparison between the platform at Grand Central and the platform at Time Square ought to show if the expenditure was worth it.
07/09/2000
The air coolers at Grand Central are working and tomorrow there is a ceremony for the R-142? COINCIDENCE?
Bill "Newkirk"
Gee, maybe the left hand knows what the right hand is doing? Something wrong with this?
It will probably work until 5 minutes after the politicians leave.
Was at GCT today and it was much more bearable with these air coolers in place. Got an uptown 5 there at GCT and it felt much hotter at 59th street which has no A/C.
It's still working.
It was noticeably cooler on the platform at GC this afternoon than it was a few minutes earlier at BB. (It was absolute heaven right under the A/C, but even other parts of the platform were a lot cooler than at BB.)
07/10/2000
I was at Grand Central today to check out the air coolers. They are just that, they are not air conditioners. They seem to work fine except when two trains open doors at the same time and people change from express to local. But still much better without the ceiling mounted air coolers. If you study the air discharge and stand against a tile wall, you can feel the flow of cooled air while waiting for your train.
I wonder if these units will run 24-7 or be shut of between 1AM and 5AM? I was told that Brooklyn Bridge had some primitive air cooling system back when the first subway was in it's infancy.
Bill "Newkirk"
Uh, what is the difference between an air cooler and an conditioner???
>>> what is the difference between an air cooler and an conditioner??? <<<
Dave;
Air cooling is just blowing air over a cool surface to lower the temperature of the air. Air conditioning is treating air to control the temperature, humidity, and filtering to remove impurities.
Tom
The units at GCT are air conditioning units. There appears to be a drip return for humidity removed from the cooled air. There are also dust filters in the GCT units. I expect them to clog up rather quickly.
What will NYCT do:
1. clean/replace the filters as often as required (about once per week) to maintian efficient flow and peak performance;
2. let the filters clog and let the ac become dysfunctional;
3. remove the filters entirely and permit the steel dust to embed itself in the cooling fins and destroy the units.
07/11/2000
[The units at GCT are air conditioning units]
Are you sure? They work on some cold water system to cool things down. The use of compressors would even add to the heat on the platforms. Besides, when I was there yesterday, the cooled air felt a little clammy, not dry as with air conditioners. Also, the only sound I heard was the blowers moving the air, not the usual compressor sound.
Bill "Newkirk"
Then that would be an air conditioner using Hydrogen Oxide as a refrigerant. The definition of Air conditioner does not dictate the use of a chlorofluorocarbon or hydrochlorofluorocarbon (phew!).
I spent some time on the platform today waiting for the test train.
There are a LOT of filters to change, and they are not exactly
in an ergonomic location. It will be interesting to see how
often the filters get changed. The platforms are noticeably cooler
but the blower units create a draft and a lot of noise. W
hen a train stands in the
station the hot air coming up from beneath the cars is a slap
in the face.
I will definatly ride Metro North to Wassaic next weekend, and will ride the R-142 as soon as I can. As Homer Simpson says, "Woo Hoo!" This is a great day for subway buffs.Train Buff Headquarters
07/09/2000
I didn't ride the special today, but rather opted to shoot it coming down to and leaving Coney Island. On the first trip (6/18), the special arrived at stillwell about 1:10PM but today arrived about 1:50PM. I was told by someone who rode it that at Jay St/Boro Hall they gave the special the wrong lineup and instead of changing directions and heading down the Culver, it was heading back to Manhattan all the way to 59th/Columbus Cicle to change ends!
A longer ride on the D's but a shorter stay at Coney Island. The D's looked and sounded great!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, we went all the way back to Square One (Columbus Circle) to turn around, no explanation given, then we went back southbound via 6th Avenue and so out the "F" line to Coney Island. The D-Types were in very good condition for their ages (73 years young); while some R32s are suffering from mushy floors, 6019A-B-C seems to be suffering from a mushy CEILING - it looked pretty well patched up. The A/C (i.e. the fans) was on only in 6112C. 6095A-B-C was at the Museum; they were talking about taking them out but didn't. We had a tour of AB #2202; BU #1273, R4 #484 and R11/34 #8013. Some of us wandered around to inspect the other cars, including the R16, R17, R12 and Lo-V.
Steve B will be pleased to hear that the bull & pinion gears got up to F# above middle "C" as we went south on the 8th Avenue line towards 42nd Street. We got the express track on the Culver from just outside of 4th Avenue (we waited at a green/green until the tower gave us the proper lineup) all the way south to around Avenue "X". (we ran local coming back). The train made all the right sounds, including the added bonus of crunchnoisy wheel music which was especially acute on the IND underground lines when we made left-hand turns (i.e. n/b coming into High Street; s/b leaving Chambers St-H&M). It didn't seem to do this on the elevated stretches of the Culver.
I would say there were about 200 people on the trip, including a number of other SubTalkers. We boarded at the centre platfom at 59th Street.
We left Coney Island at 3:56PM, arriving at Columbus Circle at 4:53PM.
wayne
Glad to hear it had a big crowd. Quite frankly, I didn't go because it would cost me twice as much. It can become rather expensive if you bring the kids who are too old for the kids fare.
Wayne, you answered my question before I could even ask it. Hopefully someday I'll get to ride on those BMT masterpieces. Did that train thunder through 42nd St. without breaking stride?
Nope, we sort of coasted through 42nd St because of a revenue train directly in front of us.
--Mark
Correct. The dash was short-lived but fun nevertheless.
We also got going again on the 6th Avenue line between 34th and 23rd (on the local track of all places) (it didn't last either). What really irked me was the presence of GT's in the Culver bypass between 7th Avenue and Church. What on earth are GT's doing THERE, on a straight run?
wayne
One word: paranoia.
One other question: when that train went all the way back to 59th St. the first time, did it go up 6th Ave. or 8th Ave? And if it went up 8th Ave., assuming it was running express, how fast was it going past 23rd St? On those rare instances when I would get a train of R-1/9s, they never got any higher than F# below middle C while skipping that station. Last fall, the first northbound A train I took sailed past 23rd at 25 mph - unheard of for me, anyway.
It went via 8th Avenue express tracks, and we passed 23rd Street at the usual crawl. In fact, I didn't hear him give the motors much of a kick through there, maybe "G" below middle "C" give or take a quarter-tone.
wayne
More often than not, the R-10s would be moving so slowly past that station I could see each individual I-beam. The T/Os must have kept it in switching, if the train wasn't coasting. Other than the upslope approaching 23rd St., the only other reason I could think of would be the switch to the pocket track just past the northern end of the station. I don't ever remember seeing any GTs or WDs at any point.
The southbound run past 23rd St. was and is a different story.
I also opted to do some outside shooting at Coney Island (I was on the upper crossover right over the Culver tracks), and I also saw it at 10:10 when it arrived at 59th and at 5 or so when it returned to 59th. Any Subtalkers in the crowded front cab waving at me? Hopefully I'll post the pics when I get them. I know I saw Wayne-MrSlantR40 (in the blue shirt) and, I think Kevin Walsh (who was either the guy videotaping at the front of a northbound N train right after the Triplex left CI in the Transit Museum shirt or the guy talking to Wayne after the trip). Also attempted to see it at Hoyt side platform in the morning, but missed it (where does it go? Lower Bergen?). I was wondering what was going on when, around 1:20, a B train T/O told me that it had "only left 59th at 12:30;" thanks for clearing that up. Overall, a great day!
Also attempted to see it at Hoyt side platform in the morning, but missed it (where does it go? Lower Bergen?).
We pulled into Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the "A"/"C" line track (probably around 10:45AM), then just beyond, we changed directions and wrong-railed into the Museum on what would be the outbound Museum track (the platform with the tiled pillars).
We left the museum on the same track, got out on the Fulton Express track, got almost to Clinton-Washington then slipped into a 5th track pocket to change directions; we passed through Hoyt going northbound on the "A"/"C" track. We were going to turn around somewhere north of Jay but had to go all the way to 59th Street and beyond to do so. Nobody (including myself) seemed to mind the delay.
wayne
I was on the A train behind, and probably would have seen you guys (again) had the D not arrived first at 59th. Does this mean that they had pulled up the "IRT/el" side of the museum all the way to the front, filling the space where the 142 mockup was?
No we arrived on the OTHER side, the one with the other "D" set, the AB, R1, R4, mock R10, etc. 6112A cuddled right up to her friend 6095C, who was cooling her heels and very dimly lighted inside.
6112A-B-C were in the station; 6019A-B-C were in the tunnel just beyond. The passengers walked through the train until they reached the open doors of 6095C. The road train kept her doors closed.
wayne
That fan trip was great! We got plenty of stares from revenue passengers wondering what was this old timey train doing on the tracks. The D types rode like the way I remebered them, and the sounds that they made brought back memories. I wonder if any of the old IRT cars will get out of the museum confines and sent out to run on an excursion like the one I enjoyed? I know that the wooden cars are forbidden to have passengers in the tunnels, but that does not preclude them from being featured in a trip on say, the Myrtle Ave. line, or the Broadway Line, or any other elevated line? How about it?
Such a trip was planned a few years ago but scrapped because
of a number of problems with the B-Q cars. It would be possible
to operate that trip using the cars as coaches, but making them
run under their own power....I wouldn't hold my breath.
I thought at the time it was an asbestos removal problem - not a power peoblem - that caused the B-Q car trip to be scrapped. The trip originally envisioned using the D-Types to Lefferts Blvd, then a cross-the-platform transfer to the B-Q cars out to the Rockaways.
--Mark
That created a little political problem that got the cars kicked
out of Coney Island shop, but I believe it was the logistics of
the trip itself that caused the cancellation.
Wayne (or any SubTalker on the excursion),
Did the train travel by way of the yard to Stillwell? Hmmm. Trip definitely sounds interesting. I gotta get on the last excursion!!! I'll never get tired of riding those Triplexes.
-Stef
No - we used track M of the Culver Line and then switched to the CI bound local track immediately south of the Ave X station.
--Mark
>>>I know I saw Wayne-MrSlantR40 (in the blue shirt) and, I think
Kevin Walsh (who was either the guy videotaping at the front of a northbound N train right
after the Triplex left CI in the Transit Museum shirt or the guy talking to Wayne after the trip).<<<
Nope, I was shooting Forgotten items in Rosedale, Meadowmere and the Rockaways yesterday...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> or the guy talking to Wayne after the trip).<<<
That was probably Mark Feinberg.
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS I mean, Feinman
Guilty as charged!
--Mark
I wasn't finished - I took an "E" back to Jamaica - it was an R46 and I was stuck in the 8th car (#5708) so I bailed out at Queens Pza to finish taking pictures in the mezzanine; the next "E" was an R32 and I stayed on until Union Tpke. I planned to take pictures in the mezzanine there but three things conspired to thwart me: a) too many people b) too little time c) a wary-eyed policeman. I'll finish up next time.
The R32 was very frisky - #3738 was our lead motor.
wayne
I have a terminal to terminal ride aboard the E train videotaped from WTC to Parsons/Archer. It's quite a run. A G.O. forcing the E to run express between Canal & 42nd ST would have made it perfect, but at the time I was there, there was none in effect (like there was this past weekend).
--Mark
Yep, caught you at the tail end of West 8th St.
I rode both the Astroland Tower and the Wonder Wheel with the videocamera. You don't realize how "fast" the Tower spins (clockwise) unless you view an object through a camera lens. The view was great, but it was difficult to focus on a single object for a long time because of the rate of movement. If you use the windows by the elevator's unused exit door, the glass (or plastic) is unscratched.
It was by far easier to focus through the "cage" of the Wonder Wheel, but you had to time it right to prevent the support beams of the wheel from intruding upon your frame of reference while you rode it.
The breeze up there was mighty refreshing, given how muggy it got yesterday.
Our stay at Stillwell was a bit under 2 hours, even with the unscheduled trip back to 59th St. The reason why that happened was that we were given the wrong lineup at Jay Street and were then unable to change tracks without interfering with revenue trains, so we were going to be transferred at W 4. But due to a G.O. on the IND 8th Ave subway (all express uptown, all local downtown), we were diverted further uptown to 59th St.
A chance to ride the Nostalgia Train under 8th Ave with the natural A/C on (front window down).
Hope it happens again in 2 weeks, July 23rd, 2000, exactly 35 years (to the day) the D-Types stopped running in renevue service.
--Mark
The Airtrain website is really informative and filled with good drawings and pictures. However, there is no indication as to how their "light rail vehicles" will collect current. There would seem to be no indication of overhead current collection devices on either the cars or the structures. Is this a third rail operation?
It's not really light rail. The system is designed to be compatible
with LIRR and NYCTA specifications and uses an over-running
third rail. I believe the voltage is 750.
The system is designed to be compatible with LIRR and NYCTA specifications and uses an over-running third rail. I believe the voltage is 750.
If either of these systems were to use linear induction motors.
Obviously, you can't run linear induction cars over a ROW that is not so equipped (except as trailers, I guess). Can you run more conventionally powered cars that use compatible 3rd rail shoes over an ROW that is equipped for linear induction?
All a linear induction motor right of way has different from a normal one is that there's a metal plate laid dead centre between the running rails. The current collection system is also slightly different, but more detail below.
Current collection:
Electrification is by fourth rail (presumably to avoid problems at switches or other locations where the LIM beneath the cars would cause electrical interference in the running rails which would normally be used as the return current path), but because the area between rails is already occupied by the linear induction motor reaction plate, the current rails can't be configured in London Underground style, but are instead stacked one atop the other beside the track. The current is collected and returned using the vertical surfaces of the powered rails facing the vehicles.
Running conventional vehicles on right of way equipped for LIM use:
If normal trains were equipped with the 4th rail shoes that would make the necessary connections to the charged rails, they could operate without problems, because it is a spinning wheel on a stationary rail like any other train. The linear induction motor's stationary reaction plate between the rails doesn't change anything, unless it poses a clearance problem. In fact, the work cars on the Scarborough RT in Toronto (the 'prototype' line for the LIM technology being used on the Air Train) are conventional rail cars hauled behind a conventional diesel engine. An electric engine powered off of the 4th rail electrification would work, but diesel was chosen to be more practical, since most work is done with the 4th rail power shut off.
Hopefully this answers some of your questions...
-Robert King
Jeff-
Third rail, eh? Thank you. There is no mention of linear induction. I have seen linear inducttion ROWs and there is nothing in the plans or drawings to indicate that this expensive system would be employed. I'll go back over the website and look at some of the trackway cross section elevations to see whether or not a third rail is indicated. Thanks for your response and the others that followed.
My info was based on a presentation made by the Port Authority at
a NYD ERA meeting several years ago. It may be incorrect, but
I never heard anyone mention linear induction traction since.
Reference to the linear induction motors can be obtained at the builder's site.
Imagine the PA forgetting to mention a "minor" detail like that. Well, there goes the compatibility.
Thanks for the URL. It does say LIM for propulsion, and also
states that 750VDC, third rail will be used.
There is also a cryptic reference to underground guideways.
Huh? What part of this system is in subway?
I talked to a friend of mine last night who is an engineer for Bombardier. He does most of the testing work going on now. I found out a few interesting things I don't recall seeing mentioned here before:
The problem with the truck bolts - apparently the solution was not so much longer or stronger bolts, but bolts made with softer metal. They determined that they needed flexibility at that point.
The trains are amazingly complex. 90 separate computer systems. The most important tool in servicing them is a laptop. You can even control traction and braking systems in real-time from a laptop.
We all know about the tilting fiasco. The trains were built to tilt up to 4 degrees, but are now crippled to 3.1 degrees due to clearance issues. The interesting part is that Bombardier believes the trains can tilt safely to 3.4 or 3.5 degrees. They're trying to convince Amtrak right now to let them increase the maximum tilt.
Is there an external jack for the laptop interface? How about an RF interface with the laptop?
I'm not sure what type of interface they use, but I'm sure the train-side connector is behind a locked panel somewhere. Possibly only in the locos.
So, the question would be... What's to stop a malicious SubTalker from hacking into an Acela train and controlling it from his computer??
"Danger Will Robinson!!"
-- David
Boston, MA
(So, the question would be... What's to stop a malicious SubTalker from hacking into an Acela train and controlling it from his computer??)
To paraphrase: So, the question would be... What's to stop a malicious SubTalker from hacking into an R-142 train and controlling it from his computer??
I'm sure the jack(s) are not located somewhere you could get to easily as a passenger.
And, even if you could somehow link in, not having their software, I imagine you'd have to do an awful lot of blind monkeying around to figure out the protocols and thus be able to control anything siginificant.
Today (July 9th) I did a little touring of the 180th Street Yard to see what was going on with the Two new babies to the NYC Transit Fleet, MUCH TO MY SURPRISE THERE WAS 4 SETS OF R142s INSTEAD OF THE USUAL 2.
The other two sets were Bombardier R142s, so now count them off, we (MTA) are now proud owners of Three R142 sets and One R142A Set.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
That'll change my friend. There are R-142A's waiting in the wings to arrive on NYCT property.
-Stef
I have returned from my adventure at Branford, doing what I know best, which is working on the R-17. There's not too much report here other than the fact that I made a 1970's blue stripe dissolve in a stream of paint stripper. It's all gone!!! I made history disappear. Oh well. She's getting stripped down to the bare metal, getting a new coat of primer, and then she'll get her new shade of redbird red. Eventually the pantographs will be removed for work on the ends, as well as some maintenace on the gates themselves. There's still much to be done, but progress is being made. All original paint is off the roof, the sides are completely devoid of redbird paint, and now the ends are being done. Can you imagine what the ends of the car will look like without the pantographs? 6688 will resemble a work car pulled by diesel. Incredible.
Some side notes: My car's out of the shop for the week pending expansion of a section of the shop, which will do good for the personnel. 6688's away in the car barn, but there's was no place for 1689. With 6688 in her place, the R-9 will be outside temporarily.
I couldn't get away without manuevering the car. The R-17 really handles like a champ. The PCC, however gives this car a run for it's money....
-Stef
[I made a 1970's blue stripe dissolve in a stream of paint stripper. It's all gone!!! I made history disappear.]
I'm actually sorry to here that, as it made a good subject matter on the tours, also graffiti was something all the customers remembered, and of course I put a plug in for the October event (NY days).
Mr t__:^)
Are the schedules starting today (even with the cerimonies) or tomorrow when the politicians leave ?
Tomorrow the schedules are suppose to be in effect. The train on the No.6 is suppose to start in service this afternoon at Grand Central.
Thanks and good luck !!
Went to Willis Hobbies in Mineola this Saturday and pick up a interesting copy of "Traction & Prototype Models". Two main articles:
- HBLR with hand drawn system map ... looks more like design for a model layout, but it wasn't the author's intention.
- "World's Largest Traction Layout", it's the same layout that a group of us saw recently at a NJ tractiin show. Article has many photos of layout and names the many of the staff that created the 55 sections/modules & models.
Also was still able to find a copy of July Trains, i.e. Cross Harbor RxR article ... good sized article.
Mr t__:^)
just heard a bulletin on the radio about the city's final preparations for the start of customer service of the r-142's
1) all east side hospitals are on level 1 emergency alert
2) the red cross has a more than an adequate whole blood supply ready for any unfortunate accident...
3) the media has every station along the #6 line armed with reporters and photographers with satellite hook-ups
4) all customers entering the r-142's will be given a souvenir rabbit's foot and army dog tags in the event of an inferno
5) mta car purchasing department is writing up an order for approximately 700 low-v cars with pullman built to the original 1920 trouble free standards
6) all railfans not planning on riding the new equipment are asked to consider if they would be willing to contribute any bodily organs that they currently are not using...
7) all religions are asked to ring their bells or blow their shofars at 11 o'clock this morning to remind all new yorkers to pray the souls of the passengers...
8) subway_crash_means_millions_for_transit after a few well chosen words is scheduled to break a ceremonial bottle of champagne over the heads of the mta board
9) heypaul will be taken into protective police custody at the half moon hotel in coney island out of concerns for his safety after putting up this post... he will be put into the arnold shuster suite at the hotel and will enjoy the cooling sea breezes through the open windows
heypaul you forgot #10 - person involved in hit and run w/Guiliani's motorcade yesterday will be conductor on the first run.
Peace,
ANDEE
Correction -- The T/O !!
heypaul, you are a sick and twisted individual....so keep up the good work.
Just thought you could use the incouragement!
I almost caused heads to turn at my job when I started to belly-laugh at #6!!
LOL!!!
Doug aka BMTman
[all railfans not planning on riding the new equipment are asked to consider if they would be willing to contribute any bodily organs that they currently are not using...]
Salaamallah said he would donate his brain, but his generous offer had to be declined after medical tests revealed that he didn't have one.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
I fell of my chair (I'm typing this from the floor.) reading this. If there's an Acadamy Award of Railfandom heypaul should win hands down.
BRAVO!! BRAVO!!!
ENCORE!! ENCORE!!
Every bulletin board should have a heypaul.:-)
Yesterday I went down to Winslow Jct to do some railfanning. Well after waiting and waiting for an NJT train I went down to the SJRR yard. Of course 5 min after I left an NJT train showed up and I was only able to view it from afar. I was surprised to see that it consisted entirely of COMET IV coaches, something I have never seen b4 on the AC line. However right after the 1st train passed with its COMETS an eastbound went by with a consist of all ARROW I cab cars. It looks like NJT is really scrambling to find cars to cover the summer rush.
"an eastbound went by with a consist of all ARROW I cab cars."
I've NEVER seen a train of all Arrow IA/IB cars (or all cab cars for that matter)! How many cars were on that train?
I've seen a train of all Arrow IBs (on the NJC) and all cabs (Comet I, Comet II, Arrow Ia on the ML). Both trains were 3 cars long, but it counts.
Well I am not sure that they were all cabs, but they were all arrow I cars (all stainless steel). The train was 4 cars long, and I know that NJT often ues Arrow I cab cars on the AC line.
I saw the train with 4 Comet IV's this AM approaching 30th St Station. It appeared as though there were 2 coaches sandwiching one cab car, with another cab at the rear (train was in 'pull' mode). I often see this trip (arriving 30th St around 7:30 every morning) and have not seen IV's before today. The usual consist is Comet III's with the occasional Arrow cab unit.
Dear friends, is the "M" reverting to terminating at B'way -Myrtle beginning 7/17/00? Will the weekend shuttle service continue afterwards? I read two conflicting posters on this.
After getting off from work late last night, I spoke to a motorman who told me about some changes coming up for the subway system when the new pick for jobs comes up for the winter session.
He said that the 63rd Street Connector is basically completed with the third rail in place (but no power yet; test trains are being taken through the area by diesel-powered engines), and the signals are set up. According to him, the Q will become a 24-hour service operating through the connector to 179th Street, Jamaica. During this time, the G will operate between Court Square, Queens and Smith-9th Streets, Brooklyn. It will become an OPTO line 24 hours a day.
He also stated that the Stllwell Avenue-Coney Island station will be closed for approximately 3 years. During this time, D/Q trains will terminate at Brighton Beach, and the B will terminate at Bay Parkway (which is why they are building a new site there for the dispatch offices and crew quarters). No word yet on where the N will terminate. Shuttle buses will provide service to the stations that won't be serviced by those trains.
Are they prepared to have hundreds upon hundreds of busses to handle the crowds going to Coney Island during the summer. The busses will probable last 1 weekend each before they are torn apart !!!!!
According to him, the Q will become a 24-hour service operating through the connector to 179th Street, Jamaica
24 hour express on the Brighton Line? Or wil they cut the Q back to 2nd Ave (Manhattan) overnight, I wonder?
He also stated that the Stllwell Avenue-Coney Island station will be closed for approximately 3 years.
I can't imagine this happening because Stillwell Ave handles a LOT of beach traffic during the summer. But if the entire structure is going to rebuilt I guess it can.
I suppose the B & N would be cut back to Bay 50th and 86th Street, respectively, and the D & F would be cut back to Bay 8th St with a temporary crossover erected so these trains could discharge people on the Stillwell Ave bound platform and pick up passengers on the Manhattan bound platform.
I would expect D service to be supplanted to make up for the loss of B & N service, though it was pretty bad at about 4pm yesterday (Sunday 7/9) - the gap train had to be taken into service because of delays.
--Mark
and the D & F would be cut back to Bay 8th St with a temporary crossover
The D and F don't go anywhere near Bay 8th Street
"The D and F don't go anywhere near Bay 8th Street"
Umm, West 8th Street/NY Aquarium.
That's not Bay 8th Street.
OK, sorry, I goofed. I meant West 8th Street but typed something else instead.
--Mark
The MB is scheduled to switch sides before opening of the connector. So the cutback would be to Canal instead of 2nd av. But the whole thing is still widely speculative. To me what makes it more intriguing is the switching of sides together with the car shortage. The 63rd street connector will be the biggest waste of money ever by the MTA if a Queens Blvd. exp. (Q?) does not use it. Because of the bridge and car situation (and no place to reverse B-south and D-south Broadway trains in midtown?) I wonder if the 63rd St. connector can be put to its only useful purpose.
3 years?!? OI VEY!!!!!! OTOH, that station does need some work. Wasn't one of the platforms rebuilt not too long ago?
The steelwork approching from the southern end (B and N lines approach in this direction) was completely replaced in 1993-94. During that time, the West End and Sea Beach platforms were closed accordingly, and the N was cut back to 86th St.
I don't believe that they would have to cut 100% of service to Stillwell for a major rehab. With 4 platforms, the B or N line could still be run into Stillwell, using whatever platform that isn't being rehabbed, or one which has been completed.
They don't have to remove all service from Stillwell Terminal, and they won't. SOMEthing will be running through there at all times.
David
There are enough options, it just takes some creative switching and perhaps a temporary track installation. Of the 8 tracks at Stillwell, all 8 go (compass) north. 3 go south to the upper level, and 2 go south to the lower level. Your only train that currently doesn't have an alternate platform is the F, which can easily terminate at West 8 for a transfer to the D. You simply close 1/2 tracks and one platform at a time, and you have no problem maintaining service. The only reason they should ever need to do a complete shutdown would be if the whole thing was on a large span beam, and it was rotting. But it's not.
-Hank
Stillwell Ave. closed for three years?!? I can see closing down one or two lines at a time while they rebuild the station in stages, but shutting the entire terminal down for three whole years? It doesn't seem practical to me.
At a minimum, NYCT would need to reopen part of the terminal during the summer to handle the beach crowds. The crowds at West 8th on a 'sunny summer Sunday' would make the infamous 72 St. IRT station look like a Franklin Shuttle platform at 3 AM by comparison ...
- Jim (RailBus)
The entire terminal will be demolished, and a new one built from the ground up.
(The entire terminal will be demolished, and a new one built from the ground up.)
I hope that commercial space is part of the plan. Anyone hear?
07/10/2000
[The entire terminal will be demolished, and a new one built from the ground up.]
I wonder if it took three years to build the current terminal !
Bill "Newkirk"
I would think if they could tear down and rebuild Penn Station without stopping LIRR and Pennsylvania Railroad service between 1963-68 (actually more like 1992 for the rebuild work on the LIRR section), they can figure out how to run some type of limited service in and out of Stillwell during the construction period.
(I would think if they could tear down and rebuild Penn Station without stopping LIRR and Pennsylvania Railroad service between 1963-68, they can figure out how to run some type of limited service in and out of Stillwell during the construction period.)
The MTA's new policy seems to be complete shutdown, and I agree with it. The construction is much faster, and much cheaper, and the results better. You can live with disruption, if it's duration is known and limited. Just think of all the "benefits" New York has gained from keeping the Manhanttan Bridge open.
"The MTA's new policy seems to be complete shutdown, and I agree with it. The construction is much faster, and much cheaper, and the results better."
Agreed. But there's another alternative from either shutting down Stillwell wholesale and slowly working around the passengers. If the work is really going to take as much as three years, the TA could build a temporary terminal.* No amenities, no concession stands, just a spartan station house with the bare necessities (MVMs, turnstiles, token booth, maybe a few payphones, newspaper machines, and a soda machine) and stairs leading up to wooden platforms with simple corrugated iron canopies.
The advantages are clear:
1) People would be willing to put up with the lack of creature comforts to be able to ride essentially all the way to Coney Island rather than changing to shuttle buses some distance away. Not that people won't complain (it IS New York, after all) but they would complain much less about a temporary station than they would about bus shuttling from 86th Street on the N, for example.
2) The TA would save on having to operate shuttle buses, which sap buses and drivers from other parts of the system.
3) Shuttle buses are not a long term solution. The continuous "round robin" of buses needed to substitute for Ls or subways creates parking, traffic, and pollution (air and noise) problems in the neighborhood, bearing no resemblance to the negligible side effects of regular bus service. It's acceptable when it's for a few hours or a couple of weekend days due to a sudden disruption in train service or a relatively brief G.O.. But neighbors understandably balk at the prospect of a bus relay for several weeks or months, not to mind three years. That isn't NIMBYism, it's a reasonable defense of quality of life. (A tip of the hat to you, Pigs.)
When CTA built a new station at Davis Street on the Purple Line, which is basically the stop for downtown Evanston, they built a temporary station just north of the old station, then tore the old station down and built its replacement. And the Davis Street project was a good bit less than three years. Of course, Davis Street is no Stillwell Avenue, but the principle is the same.
*I don't know Stillwell, but I get the impression that trains come into it from both sides. If that's the case, they could build two temporary stations, one on each side of the existing station. I doubt many people use Stillwell Avenue to change trains, but if they do, you could allow free transfers from the one temporary Stillwell terminal to the other.
(the TA could build a temporary terminal.)
The thing is, most subway riders in the Coney Island area are now residents heading in, not beachgoers heading out. And there is a station a couple of blocks way -- at W 8th St. -- to satisfy their needs. Most Stillwell riders are already taking the bus (former trolley) from the projects to the west anyway.
As for beachgoers, those traveling from places other than southwest Broooklyn can take the F or D. So the only real beneficiaries of a temporary station are those heading to/from the beach from Boro Park, Sunset Park, Bensonhurst, and Bay Ridge. Not a large number.
Thats' why I think ridership at Stillwell is a shadow of its former self. I hope they turn the whole thing into commercial development with accessory rail, not the other way around, so riders would be attracted year round. It worked in GCT. The demographic is different, but it could still work.
West 8th could certainly take on "terminal duties" for a limited duration. That would take care of the D & F lines. The tracks south (west) of the W 8th St station could be used to turn the trains around. A temporary crossover could handle that (the one currently there is too close to Stillwell).
Perhaps service on the D & F could be supplanted during the beach season to handle alternate loading from the B and N lines, which would drop people off too far from the beach area to walk, and whose crowding would make shuttle buses impractical.
--Mark
How would that impact yard access, especially for the D and Q? Will we have D trains laid up along the Brighton Express tracks overnight?
Good point. I have no idea, but a bypass track temporarily built for the duration of the construction is not out of the question.
--Mark
Not quite the same, but on a similar scale are the Newark Airport and Secaucus Transfer stops under contructon on the NEC. Both are being built while trains zipby at 40-60 MPH.
-Hank
...newspaper machines, and a soda machine
Why would the temporary station have more amenities than any New York city subway station?
The B and N trains approach Stillwell Avenue from its north end while the D and F trains approach it from the east and south (there is a very tight curve right at the south end of the station which turns east leaving the station).
The tracks that leave going north are the outside four; the inside four leave via the south end.
wayne
I like that idea. We could terminate the D and F at West 8th and keep either the N or the B platform (use both trains but only one of the plats). Build a temporary stair to the other booth in the bus lanes. You could then close the other 3 platforms and the main terminal. When the main terminal reopens then you close the B or N platform (the one you kept) and use the other B or N platform for both B and N.
Of course as a preliminary you'd build a temporary crossobver at West8th for D and F and the temporary stairs to the "back" booth by the bus lanes.The crossover could be done after Labor Day and the stairway also in one weekend. (While it is being built use the other B or N platform).
I believe west 8th has a crossunder already.
a Crossunder -yes. I should have said track crossovers (ie- switches to allow change of tracks to use as a temporary terminal.)
Where will everything terminate and how will people get to Stillwell. I can see busses on Stillwell and Surf Ave for the B-D-F but what about the N?
Let Fred take the Brighton. You said yourself that when you rode the N out to Coney Island nobody was on the train.
The N line is the least used line to/from Stillwell, probably because it doesn't run over the bridge.
And also because it is sandwiched by the B and F for much of its route.
And the F does?!
The F is the only line that connects into the IND system in Brooklyn. The N merely is another way to get to/thru Dekalb Ave.
If the Culver line retained it's pre 1954 configuration, I'd say it would be the least used line to Coney Island.
THE B/D/Q MAKE CONNECTIONS TO THE A AT WEST 4TH. DID YOU MEAN ONLY IN BROOKLYN DID THE F MAKE IND CONNECTIONS?
If the Culver line retained it's pre 1954 configuration, I'd say it would be the least used line to Coney Island.
The Culver always seems to be a BMT stepchild. It received power from Brighton Line substations. It used wooden equipment and forced equipment changes due to the Steel Car shortage. AT least with the IND South Brooklyn Line connection, it got some respect.
--Mark
The N line is the least used line to/from Stillwell, probably because it doesn't run over the bridge.
More likely because the local ride from Coney Island and Bensonhurst into Manhattan is so *(#^*(# long. If it would run express under 4th avenue all the time, it might see a bit more patronage.
--Mark
I said I was the only thru passenger from Court St, people rode the train, but only to intermediate destinations, almost everyone got off at DeKalb to connect to the D across the platform, or Pacific to wait for the B
Right, but nobody except yourself stayed on until Coney Island.
Only 6 people got off a Stillwell from my car, and they all got on South of 59th St. Plenty of Local people getting on and off between, but no thru people that I saw. But as I said, that was my car, who knew what was in the other 7 cars, but I would say maybe 20-25 people got off the train at the last stop because I was at the ramp
N terminates at 86th St. Shuttle buses will run from there to Stillwell. Its been done before.
... but not for 3 years!
--Mark
Unnecessary and radical, unless structural integrity calls for it.
So where did you learn of this plan?
It may indeed; the entire metalwork above the entranceway seems to be rusting away and the concrete in the stairs/ramps is powdering to dust. It almost looks like Chambers Street in there. Perhaps they can kee ONE platform open (I'd pick one that runs through the station) but it will be tough. The place is in bad shape and it's getting worse.
Let's hope they preserve the facade with the original "BMT Lines" plaques or at least restore them.
wayne
There may be enough space north of the station to build temporary platforms for the B and N trains to stop at, while the regular platforms at Stilwell are being redone.
Don't know how they'll handle the D and the F without cutting them back to at least West Eighth, but I'm sure at least one line in some manner is going to continue to serve the area no matter how much work they're doing at any given time to the station.
West 8th Street isn't all that far away from Stillwell. They might have to build some temporary crossovers south of Neptune and west of Ocean Parkway in order to turn trains there.
The platforms and canopies at Stillwell aren't the problem, it's whats underneath them. The rampways' walls and ceilings are slowly turning into rust and dust. You should see the atrocious ceiling above the passageways to Surf Avenue! Filthy and absolutely rotten to the core; and the station is also inhabited by hundreds and hundreds of pigeons, who crap and poop all over everything in sight. It's despicable.
wayne
Forget that - I walked UNDER the station along Stillwell Ave this past Sunday. Not good. The section in the best shape is the B platforms because they're on a typical steel "EL" structure. The rest? Forggeddabouddit!
--Mark
Replacing the plaques is useless. Saving them is preserving history. Replacing them with replicas is just wasting money on aesthetic reactionism.
The big thing for me would be inclusion of as much commercial space as possible. Stillwell is much bigger than it needs to be just for trains, since you don't have 1,000,000 people showing up by subway anymore.
But NYC needs commercial space. How about all that parking under the tracks? Could it be used for a large store? And there has been some talk of a public bath-house. Why not put it in there? Paid public restrooms would be nice. So would entertainment venues -- all legal pursuant to zoning.
I'd also like to see a pedestrian overpass to the beach a la W 8th Street, but with a canopy.
The stores along Stillwell wouldn't be too happy about a direct walkway.
Now that you mention parking, what about a park and ride? New York has too few of those (actually, only one. Rockaway Parkway) and it's a key, highway accessible location. However, it isn't the best location, Sheepshead Bay wins that contest hands down, but there is no room there unless one builds a multilevel monolith above the Belt Parkway at a spectacular cost, both monetary and aesthetic.
If a subway is ever built down Utica Avenue to Kings Plaza, the Kings Plaza garage would be a prime Park and Ride candidate, although much of the reason for it would be lost.
>>> what about a park and ride? New York has too few of those (actually, only one. Rockaway Parkway) <<<
Isn't Shea Stadium's parking area used as a park & ride? It was when the stadium was first built.
Tom
> unless one builds a multilevel monolith above the Belt Parkway
They've done this in Boston at quite a few stations on the Red Line (Alewife, Quincy Center for instance). So why not in NYC?
-Dave
I think that a Bell Atlantic yard adjacent to the station is a better place to build. There's only one thing to evict, and the facility can move to a new lot elsewhere (basically, it can be anywhere, the park and ride cannot). It would have direct ramps from the Parkway (exit 8A), and a VMS (Variable Message Sign) would tell people whether the lot is full or not.
I'm not familiar with the facility in question, but if it's any sort of switching facility for Bell Atlantic, there would be a large number of telephone trunk lines that would need to be reckoned with. Those are not easy to relocate.
-- David
Boston, MA
And the one at Prince George's Pza, just outside of DC on the Green Line isn't that bad. It all depends on how it's built.
wayne
07/11/2000
[But NYC needs commercial space. How about all that parking under the tracks? Could it be used for a large store? ]
My bet is for the new Stillwell Terminal, most of the wasted space underneath will be utilized for for buses. All buses that terminate or pass the terminal will be underneath for a easy transfer to the subway out of the elements.
Bill "Newkirk"
OK, I agree with that perspective. Perhaps before construction begins at that area of the station, they should be taken down and handed over to an artisan who is skilled in the repair and restoration of such artifacts, as they DO need some repair. Nothing terribly major, but some of the green glaze on the faience has chipped off and has to be repaired. They are a part of the history of the station, and as such do merit preservation.
The same people who did the repair of the IRT's original plaques could be qualified to handle these items as well, as they did expert work. Their name is listed on an exhibit at the Transit Museum - "Friends of Terra Cotta" is one association they are affiliated with, but dopey me FORGOT THE FIRM'S NAME! And I saw it right there in front of me...
wayne
While you're at it, tell them to preserve the old sign pointing to West End and Culver elevated trains to New York just before the token booth .....
--Mark
There was an old sign at 36th St on the downtown platform which had a box with a lighted sign denoting Sea Beach, Culver, West End and Bay Ridge trains. It disappeared about 10 years ago. When I first saw it, I had no idea what "Culver" meant ...
Sadly the Culver name fell into disuse for the line when the D train took it over in l954. For the public anyway that name was limited to the 2-bit shuttle run [9th Ave-Ditmas] although for General Orders on the D or F service it was used. I was pleased that after so many years [with the abandonment of the Culver Suttle] that the name was restored as a designation for the present day F service, as the gods of the BMT would wish! History lives. Named for Andrew Culver by the way, who built the original steam, surface line in the late l800's.
The first time I saw the F line referred to as the "Culver" line was on the 12/88 map. It's funny that the 1979 style maps before then referred to the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton lines by their name, but not the Culver.
I have to backtrack a little to the early days od D train operation to Coney; the big sign facing [I should remember] Surf Ave.(?) did mention Concourse-Culver along with the other routes. But the name was n't used except for the shuttle [unfortunately] until the shuttle was abandoned. I'm probably repeating myself though.
Yes - the sign is along the right side of the corridor after the (now closed) food vendors, use the right (as in side, not "correct) entrance on Surf Ave.
--Mark
I remember the only people in 1954 and after who refered to the D as the Culver were the people who used it, Most people called it the IND or D Train, since It was the Only IND in the Southern Div. The Culver was refered to the remaining portion at Ditmas and North. The remaining 4 lines were still called their old names, not the Broadway Lines, But Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and 4th Ave. Even the City called the D the 6th Ave-Concourse-Coney Island Line, and the Culver the remaieing parts,
I remember that sign too ! Actually, I was thinking about it when my B train was crawling into 36St.
Today, I saw something interesting going into work @ Midnight. I was riding to Manhattan on an N train, which was being rerouted to Queensbridge due to night construction on Broadway. When the train stopped on the express tracks @ Dekalb Ave, the line indicator light at Dekalb indicated:
Via Bridge
Broadway(!!!!)
How refreshing that was to see ! Amazing that the light bulbs in there still work after 10 years..lol. I wonder if anyone on the train or on the platform understood what it should have meant?
I doubt that many people look at the signs anymore. I don't. Most people I see get on either a bridge train or a tunnel train. The sign on the Brooklyn-bound platform is more useful though because the lines split and the separation of the express and local.
They'll be doing that every weekend until August, I'm going to try and get a picture of the N next to 'Via Bridge, Broadway'.
Henry,
Can you e-mail me a copy? You never know, we may never have that opportunity again, the way things have been...LOL.
I'm a bit puzzled by the "express tracks" at DeKalb. Disregarding the bypass tracks, the "express" tracks lead to the Montague St. tunnel while the "local" tracks against the wall lead to the bridge. That wasn't the case before DeKalb was rebuilt. Since I wasn't around the subway scene before the DeKalb complex was rebuilt, maybe someone else can shed some light as to whether or not those illuminated signs were updated at the same time. I have seen those signs, too, BTW.
I believe that pre-1954, there wasn't much difference on what track, express or local, a train used at Dekalb, as switches existed both north and south of the station that allowed trains to access both river crossings from any track. I believe that the Brighton line used to be able to access the "bypass" tracks during this time as well.
I am not certain, but it seems to me also that there is physically, but without track, a by-pass access to Brighton line trains between Atlantic Av. and Dekalb Av. Northbound, there is an opening in the wall on the left side between the left-hand curve out of Atlantic and before the right-hand curve into Dekalb. Anyone have any definite information on this?
07/14/2000
I believe that Brighton access to the DeKalb bypass was severed when DeKalb was reconstructed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Prior to the reconstruction of DeKalb Avenue, I remember seeing the bypass tracks through a holes in wall when the Brighton trains approached DeKalb northbound. They seemed to me to be below the grade of the Brighton tracks and therefore would not be accessible. Also, I don't remember ever seeing any switches south of the station. The Brighton trains always entered on the inside "express" track and the 4th Avenue local on the outside track. If there were switches, it would have made sense for the two lines to come into DeKalb on the opposite tracks. I also remember that the Brighton Express always waited for the 4th Avenue to cross over first to the tunnel track before the Brighton crossed over to the bridge track.
ok, The trains from the Brighton Lineboth local and express came in the inside track, and from 4th Ave came in from the Outside Track. The crossover was the North end of the station. During the 50s the Sea Beach Used the Bypass Tracks. The Brighton DID have access to the bypass tracks. The Switch north of Atlantic Ave, the bypass trains used the left track, and the trains to DeKalb used the right track. But I do not ever remember the Brighton Using the By-Pass Tracks unless of an emergency. When they Used the Franklin to go to Manhatten on Summer Sundays, the Train used the bypass tracks. One of the reasons for the the reconstruction of DeKalb in the 50s-60s was to stop the bottle neck at DeKalb, the same reason on the IRT Bdwy Line at 96th St they eliminated the 1 Express, switch overs.
The switch north of the station (the area now in the station where there is no wall between the tracks) was for TUNNEL trains to use the bypass. I'm not sure if the Brighton connected to the bypass, but if it did, then it would take the left (tunnel bound) track, and cross over where the bypass comes up next to it. But someone says the tracks are not at grade with each other, and I don't remember if there is a gap in the wall where such a connection would have been, so I'm not sure.
"The Switch north of Atlantic Ave.." That's what I was waiting to read. So that opening in the wall on the left was the access of the Brighton line tracks to the by-pass tracks, but the switch and tracks have been removed.
Just going on second hand information from old timers any route could be accessed by the bypass tracks..I don't know if that meant both directions, e.g. tunnel or bridge*. On the subject: OK, a curve ball.... anybody remember when Myrtle Ave. station was in use? One side of it has vanished. I don't remember this, but to confirm the many routings... does anyone remember an interlocking signal with a BLUE bottom light? I don't but somewhere in the De kalb area there was such a signal to designate a 3rd route [since normally only green or yellow showed routings.]* bridge as in north or south side??
Myrtle Avenue closed in 1956 when the tracks north of DeKalb were reconfigured and the one platform was demolished. There's more information in the FAQ.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you look in the old rule books for the train crews, there is a reference for such a signal with a blue indication for a third route just north of Dekalb Ave. station on the BMT lines. That signal went out when a special bypass was constructed to allow N express trains using the now unused tracks of the Manhattan bridge to skip Dekalb Ave. station via the inneer tracks during rush hours. That bypass also did away with the southern half of the old Myrtle Ave. station.
The by pass can be used in either direction, even from the trains coming to and from the tunnel.
according to Joe Cunningham's theory:
DeKalb was built as a local station- the bypass tracks were express adn the current express tracks for trains that stopped at DeKalb. When the Brighton was extended they took down the wall, leaving island platforms. Before the station was lengthened, the bypass tracks were totally behind a tile wall.
Dekalb was meant to be a local stop on the 4th Ave. line, with the express tracks (the present day "bypass tracks") crossing over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to Chambers St and the local (now the tunnel tracks) running over the north side along the never built Canal St subway. This part of the line was already built before the Dual Contracts as part of the Triboro system.
07/13/2000
[I remember that sign too !]
Does anybody remember a similar sign on the north end of the northbound side of Pacific St.? Although not illuminated in many years, there may have been an access door allowing some ambient light to enter a expose one of the boxes. This box said "LAWRENCE ST.". That's right! Before DeKalb was rebuilt there was a time when a train using the bypass tracks could cross over and access the Montague St. tunnel. The big giveaway, a wide open area minus columns making room for a crossover.
Bill "Newkirk"
It would also doom many seasonal business operators at CI who depend on the crowds subway service brings into the area during the summer. Community opposition would be immense.
Add the Manhattan Bridge into this... you have some even more confusing service!!! Uh oh.
No Train Operator, no Conductor, no Customer Service Agent, no (fill in Civil Service title here) knows what the service plan for 63 St will be, since the plan has not been released! It will be released this coming October, at which time all of us will know what will be proposed. The plan will require public hearings, to be held in January 2001, so even what's presented in October may not be the final word.
Please, I beg all of you: stop listening to what you hear "on the road." It's sheer speculation, and the chances of it being wrong are FAR better than the chances of it being right.
David
People are panicing about the complete closure of Stilwell Ave. already based on this thread, and most people should know better. It'll never happen like that.
I'm still waiting to see those 6 car J trains someone with "reliable information" stated would exist after the bridge re-opened last September.
I think this will be a good plan for the 63rd Street Connection and the Manhattan Bridge switching sides for 2001:
(B) Central Park West Local/ 6th Avenue Express
Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx (Rush hours)
145th Street, Manhattan (Weekdays 9am-4pm, 8pm-9pm)
Jamaica Center, Queens (All other times)
Grand Street, Manhattan (All Times)
(Express Forest Hills to 21st Street-Queensbridge and in Manhattan.)
(D) Concourse-6th Avenue-Culver Express
205th Street, Bronx
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times, via F route West 4th Street to Coney Island. Express Jay Street to Church Avenue.)
(E) Queens Express/ 8th Avenue Local
Jamaica Center, Queens
World Trade Center, Manhattan
(All Times, Local east of Forest Hills evenings, nights & weekends.)
(F) Queens Express/ 6th Avenue Local
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times, Local in Queens 24 hours a day, Local in Manhattan and Brooklyn, replacing the G in Queens.)
(G) Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
Court Square, Queens
Church Avenue, Brooklyn
(All Times)
(M) Myrtle Avenue-Chambers-Nassau-West End Local via Nassau Street Loop
Metropolitan Avenue, Queens (All Times)
Myrtle Avenue, Brooklyn (Evenings, nights & Weekends)
Chambers Street, Manhattan (Weekdays 9am-3pm)
Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (Rush hours)
(N) Broadway-Sea Beach Express via Manhattan Bridge
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times. Express in 57th Street to Canal Street all times. Express in Brooklyn, skipping DeKalb Avenue Weekdays 6am-9pm only.)
(Q) Broadway-Brighton Express via Manhattan Bridge
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(Weekdays 6am-9pm. Express 179th Street to 21st Street-Queensbridge, Express 57th Street to Canal Street, Express Prospect Park to Brighton Beach.)
(R) Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Montague Street Tunnel
71st-Continental Avenue, Queens
95th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn
(All Times)
(T) Broadway-West End Express via Manhattan Bridge
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens (Rush Hours only)
Queensborough Plaza, Queens (Weekdays 9am-3pm)
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (All other times, when the Q is not running.)
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(Express Forest Hills to 21st Street-Queensbridge, Express 57th Street to Canal Street all times. Express in Brooklyn, skipping DeKalb Avenue 6am to 12midnight daily.)
(W) Broadway-Brighton Local via Montague Street Tunnel
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times)
The Southern half of today's B and D trains should be relettered to T and W respectively to avoid confusion.
Interesting plan. Only 2 problems that I can see: overloading of Astoria terminal and need to switch the bulk of trains per hour (now 12 on E, 18 on F) to E as Broadway Exp. would not be able to handle more than 14 Q (10 T + 6 N = 16, max. possible is 30). Probably much better 12 for Q and 18 for E.
This is a great idea. However, you have to understand that this will require a large increase of trains, drivers, etc. for these new services. Thus, it will be more costly, and the stingy MTA may not go for the added expense.
Also, it does not seem necessary to provide the "W" train so far north, since Astoria is not overcrowded. Perhaps if the "W" train terminated at 57/7th, there can be extra trains, combined with the cut in "G" service to squeak by. What do you think?
They cannot terminate the W at 57th Street, because it'll cause backups. They can send the Q and T into Queens, using the Broadway-63rd Street Connection. The T can terminate at Queensborough Plaza on Weekdays 6am-12midnight instead of being extended to Astoria.
On Thursday July 6,2000 I rode on R-29 #8697 and noticed that the car and its mate #8696 still had the old style windows on the sides of the car. It was rather surprising to still find some of the old IRT cars with their original side windows since in the most part they were replaced in the 1990s.
BMTJeff
Most of the R26/28's still have their original windows and can be found on the 5. Yesterday I saw on the 6 (busy day) a car with both window types right next to each other!
The car in question is R29 #8715. Photo to follow.
R22 Brian:
Interesting window arrangemant on R-29 #8715. It seems theres always an odd looking car somewhere roaming throughout the subway system.
BMTJeff
You haven't been riding a lot :)
There are many Redbirds still with the old style windows roaming the IRT.
--Mark
Including 7821, which also has an R-21 storm door and a pre-79 front roll sign.
Ditto #7773 (That one's got a current sign) with the R21/22 window.
wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
I know about R-26 #7773 with the R-21/22 style front window. It is pictured in the book titled "New York City Subway Cars".
BMTJeff
Mark S. Feinman:
I don't ride the subway that often but, I was surprised to see a married pair of redbirds with the old style windows which were the original windows for those cars. Apparently R-29 #8715 has both the old and new windows in place at the same time. How's that for making things interesting.
BMTJeff
Two style windows in the same car? Very interesting indeed!
--Mark
Can someone please tell me if the switches and/or trip arms on the NYCS are electricly operated or penumatically operated or if there is a mix of the 2. If there is a mix where can the different types be found and is the MTA trying to phaze out one type or the other? I know for a fact that the switches and trip arms on both the Market Frankford and Broad St. lines are penumatic.
Signals on NYCT are almost exclusively from one of two vendors:
GRS or USS. All the signals in a particular stretch will be
either all GRS or all USS. Air is only used in USS territory.
I don't know if there is an active plan to phase out the air
(it is more difficult to maintain). I think there has been at
least one recent signal replacement project where an old USS plant
with air was replaced with electric. You can tell the difference
visually. The air stop mechanisms are much more compact than the
all-electric machines. Also, in USS territory, the interlocking
signals have lever numbers with L and R designations...you'll see
a plate marked X 4L for example on the bottom head of a homeball.
In GRS territory the signals are numbers only.
Are there any patterns to the territory? Also you can tell a penumatic switch by the round cylinder on either end of the boxy part. On 2 non-consecqutive occasions I have heard the electric switches on PATCO operate and they sound awful. They make a ratcheting sound that is akin to a mini-jackhammer. The penumatic switches make no noise as the points move and b4 and after all you hear is an air whoosh and locking sounds.
Are there any patterns to the territory?
Not really. As sections of lines were built, the signal contract
was awarded by bidding or perhaps some other practices that were
popular at the time. So, some interlockings are Union and some are
GRS.
In todays world of electronics, computers go out of date very quickly. Just look when the R-32’s, 33’s, 36’s, 38’s, 40’s, 42’s came in what was the state of computers on trains. NONE that I know of. What about the computers that came originally on the 44’s and 46’s? They were replaced after not being used.
In 10 years will the computers be serviceable (parts etc), or will they have to be replaced?. Most large companies don’t have PC’s over 10 years old.
>>> In 10 years will the computers be serviceable (parts etc), or will they have to be replaced?. <<<
Industrial computers tend to be designed for the job that they do, with all the circuitry hard wired in a single chip or at most on a circuit board. They are designed to last as long as the item they are in, or to be readily exchangeable. If one fails it is usually replaced as opposed to repaired.
A PC is a general purpose computer which may be given may different tasks from time to. As more and more components are integrated on the motherboard, repair becomes increasingly less cost effective to repair than replace. If you are old enough to remember radios and TV's with vacuum tubes and wired resisters and capacitors, you'll remember there was a big industry of repairing those items. Most early TV's were sold with a service contract. Now it is more economical to replace circuit boards with complete sub-systems on expensive appliances, and replace the whole thing on the cheaper models.
Tom
The R-44/R-46 cars did not have _computers_, per say. They
had a lot of electronic control circuitry and some of it may
have been based on discrete digital logic (e.g. the old 7400
series of chips), but there were no microprocessors or any
kind of stored program.
Obsolescene of the computers and network is something the TA
thought about a lot in coming up with the R-142 specs. They
took steps to avoid being locked into a single-vendor, proprietary
solution. It is debatable, and indeed has been debated before
rather vigorously, whether those steps will be sufficient.
It is likely that in 20 years, one will not be able to find the
exact replacement part for, say, the propulsion unit microcontroller.
However, as long as all of the wiring and network protocols were
properly documented, it should be possible to replace it with a
then-modern black-box equivalent.
E.g., I work in a building
with a lot of programmable logic controllers for, among other things,
air conditioning systems. Some of them are very old. If one
fails, the vendor comes in with a new box and transfers (and sometimes
translates) the ladder logic code and hooks up all the wires
to the corresponding terminals.
Of course, subway trains are a bit more complicated. The biggest
danger is that over the course of the decades, the TA will lose
the knowledge of how these controllers are supposed to behave.
Presumably, if all subsequent car orders will utilize similar
technology, then the continuity will not be lost. WIth the R44/46
order, nothing else came along for a long time, and when it did,
it was back to conventional SMEE-like semantics.
In the summer of 1969, when I was four, my mother used to take my grandmother to her podiatrist in Jamaica Queens. The doctor's office parking lot abutted Jamaica Avenue and from there I got my first, up close look at the El. By this time I was already quite familiar with it for whenever I took the train with my parents from our home in Freeport into New York, I would see its green steel superstructure out of the window to my right. In 1969 I remember approaching it from just east of its 168th Street Terminal and once beneath its tracks the landscape changed into a place of wonder.
I was awed by the shadows of trains passing overhead and the car fairly shook from their rumbling passage. By the time I took my first ride on it six years later, I was already quite familiar with its history. The R-12 cars (correct me if my memory is off), with their rattan seats and the wooden platforms evoked a much earlier time. When they tore it down in 1978 east of Queens Boulevard I mourned as though I'd lost a friend and regretted not having snagged a piece of it before the junkman hauled it away. Seven years later, when the line was closed east of 121st Street, I did not repeat that mistake. At the Queens Boulevard station I slipped my hand beneath the barricade and came away with a few pieces of the staircase canopy. I have those chunks of green painted plaster to this day.
Today, Jamaica Avenue has finally begun to recover from the loss of its El but I dare say that though it is indeed cleaner, it's certainly not nearly as much fun. I suspect that that bakery around 165th street (which made the best apple pie save your momma) is long gone and we all know what happened to F.W. Woolworth's. I have a nephew who'se nineteen and a son that's six. Though I myself am only thirty five, it makes me feel REAL OLD to realize that all of my memories of the Jamaica Avenue El are older than they are. I guess that's why I make a point of spending some time hanging out beneath the Broadway El whenever I'm in New York (which by the way will be this upcoming weekend). Not only do I reflect on New York's history, I also reflect on my own and to the extent that I do this, I acquire a keener sense of how far I've come, and how much farther I have to go.
Sincerely,
Eric D. Smith
E_DOG
One minor correction - I don't know what cars ran on the Jamaica El at the time that you remember, but they couldn't have been R-12s - those are IRT cars.
subfan
They were R7's and R9's.
Ahhh, my favorite subject. Your childhood memories, while older than mine, are familiar to me. How many times can I state the folly of destroying this el? Not enough, I guess.
BTW, those cars you're referring to would be the R7 and R9's.
I had an appointment in Bklyn this morning which required me to head down the Lex. To my surprise the R-142As, 7211-7220 appeared at Jackson Av middle, heading south at 10AM. Side signs were set to not in service. The 142s were two trains ahead of me and I wandered if it was going to the ceremony. I got to GCT at 10:30AM and didn't find the train or any kind of ceremonies going on. Eventually, I got to Brooklyn Bridge and the train was no where to be found.
This leads me to believe that the train was simply being transferred from 180th St to Westchester Yard, with the train being turned at 86th St. Does anyone know if in fact a ceremony took place today?
-Stef
Stef I took the brand new R142A today at 2:32pm at 125th St & there were a bunch of people from MTA. Boy the R142A run smooth from 125th St to Parkcheaster Av. There a guy who work for MTA & told the old man sitting that the R142A will go on 30 days test & if they pass it than they will deliever 10 car per week for next a year & half. Also he say that R142 Bombardier Train didn't start testing for 30 days & MTA want one train at the time. Subtalk u should have ride on the new R142A & it so beauiful. By the way there will be a ceremony tomorrow morning at 10am at GCT on Lexington Av line.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I was trying to plan a day trip on NJ Transit down to the great Land of Fun and Sun, Seaside Heights, NJ, until I found out that it CANNOT BE DONE.
I love Seaside. When I was a kid, I used to go down there every year with my family -- one year my parents gave me and my younger brother the choice of going to Disney World or to Seaside, and we chose Seaside! I even spent the honeymoon of my (mercifully) short-lived marriage down there!
So, I, being a clever chap, figured that I might be able to mosey on down to Seaside via NJ Transit for a fine day of sun, sand, surf, games, rides, and shops (not to mention a sausage-and-pepper sandwich and a big cup of birch beer).
I wanted to get there early, like maybe 8am. I had hoped to stay all day on the beach, the boardwalk, and environs, and then leave at around 10pm.
I figured I would take the train, so that I could bring my bike with me for moving around the town. I would've also used the bike for getting back and forth from Seaside itself to the nearest train station at Bay Head.
Not so fast! After perusing the NJ Transit website, I find that YOU CAN'T DO THIS!!
If one wants to take a NJ Transit train to Bay Head on a weekday, the first one leaves Hoboken at 8:33am, and doesn't get to Bay Head until the late hour of 10:43am. (Then there's the good half-hour-plus bike ride into Seaside.)
Even more ridiculous than this is the fact that the LAST train out of Bay Head back up to Hoboken leaves at 2:54pm! THAT IS NOT A TYPO -- THE LAST TRAIN OUT IS AT TWO-FIFTY-FOUR IN THE AFTERNOON!! I'd have to leave Seaside on my bike at 2pm to be sure to catch this train!
Well (I thought to myself), this sucks! But, not being ready to give up yet, I decided to investigate whether I could make the trip by bus instead.
Of course, to a train guy such as myself, taking a bus is a major step down in terms of comfort. Another drawback of taking the bus would be that I wouldn't be able to bring my bike with me. (Actually, NJ Transit does allow you to shove a bike into the luggage compartment under the bus; but I don't want to get my bike smashed up by doing that.)
On the other hand, taking a bus for distance usually costs less than taking a train (key word: "usually"); also, the bus would go all the way into Seaside, not just to Bay Head. So, I decided to look into it.
I shouldn't have bothered.
There are two buses which provide seasonal service to Seaside -- the #137 from the Port Authority and the #67 from Newark. However, the earliest #137 doesn't arrive in Seaside until 10:43am on a weekday, and the earliest #67 doesn't get there until 11:46am. The last buses out leave Seaside at 6:35pm (for the #137) and 7:35pm (for the #67).
(Incidentally, on top of this, the bus fare is higher -- MUCH higher -- than the train fare, which is $10.50 roundtrip. The #137 from the P.A. is $27 roundtrip, and the #67 from Newark is $18 roundtrip.)
What is going on here? To my mind, this is ridiculous! The last trains/buses out of the Seaside area should be late at night, like at around 11pm or midnight; not at 6:30 in the evening, when it is still bright sunshine out! (And CERTAINLY not at 3:00 in the afternoon! Yow!!!)
While it is true that the beach is the main point of going to Seaside, there are also bars and restaurants down there that stay open late, as well as arcades that stay open all night. It is simply beautiful on the boardwalk at night, with the lit-up piers, those great food smells, and the sea air.
But, if I took NJ Transit, I would be able to hit the beach in the daytime, but I would NOT be able to have any of this nighttime enjoyment. (I would also miss the fireworks that they shoot off every Wednesday night at 9pm.) It certainly would not be the true Seaside experience.
So, with this unfortunate discovery, my idea for a day trip to one of my favorite places on Earth has evaporated.
I am rather confused and annoyed by this. Why does NJ Transit not run a nighttime train out of Bay Head or nighttime buses out of Seaside Heights? I'd bet that such services would be pretty heavily utilized.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Hopefully you are sending this to NJT as well? They have later weekend service including an after 8:00 pm departure on Sunday. I guess the weekday schedule is geared toward commuters, although if you stayed the night in Seaside it would work for you as well.
I should have added that the weekend direct schedule is no better, with departure times comparable to the ones I cited for a weekday.
Also, I *DID* call NJ Transit customer service yesterday to ask about this. The rep whom I spoke to was totally uninterested in my questions about the lack of nighttime service. The attitude was basically, "that's what's on the schedule, sir".
However, since I wrote my first post, I called customer service again, and I spoke to a different rep. This rep must have been a bike rider, because when I told him that I wanted to bring my bike on the train for a day trip to Seaside, he became extrememly interested.
He then looked up a few things, and told me that, indeed, there *ARE* late trains leaving out of Bay Head; however, these trains go only as far as Long Branch, where I'd be able to transfer to a NYC-bound train. (Why the other rep couldn't have told me this, I have no idea.)
This rep was so excited by the whole Seaside thing that he asked me how the bike ride from Bay Head to Seaside was (I don't know, since I haven't done it yet), and he mentioned how he himself might take the trip.
For the record, the last weeknight train out of Bay Head leaves at 10:48pm, and goes up to Long Branch. The connecting train leaves Long Branch at 11:30pm, and arrives at Penn Station at 1:20am. Now we're talkin'!
So, thanks to a helpful customer service rep, NJ Transit is vindicated in my eyes, and my day trip to the fabulous Seaside Heights might happen after all!
Ferdinand Cesarano
minor correction:
I wrote, "Also, I *DID* call NJ Transit customer service yesterday to ask about this."
Actually, I called them on Friday.
Ferdinand Cesarano
NJ Transit bus #319 has regular service from Toms River to the Port Authority until very late at night. I don't know what a taxi from Seaside Heights to Toms River costs, but it's probably not anything too terrible. You could take the morning #137 to Seaside Heights and a late-night #319 from Toms River.
Ferdinand --
I'm not sure where you're starting your trip from, but it seems like you've met up with a glitch in the NJT website. There is very little direct service from Hoboken to Bay Head. Most service to Bay Head originates in either Newark or Long Branch, with easy connections to New York Penn Station.
The first train of the day to Bay Head leaves New York Penn at 7:06 AM, Newark Penn at 7:21 AM and arrives in Bay Head at 9:27 AM (after an across-the-platform connection in Long Branch).
Returning from Bay Head, there are trains at 5:00, 7:24, 8:40, 9:40 and 10:48 which will get you back to New York Penn generally about 2 to 2.5 hours later.
I guess if you really need to go from Hoboken, you could take PATH from Hoboken to Newark.
So go and enjoy your day in the sun. After all of the wrestling you had to go through with NJT, you deserve it.
Chuck
We frequently have bike riders stop at our place in North Dakota, most have the good sense to travel east and west. One fellow, with a very fancy reclining bicycle wanted to go north to Canada.
Oooops.... YOU CAN'T get there from here!
Highway 8 goes north from our place right into Canada (well sort of it used to but.... Someone put a HUGE LAKE there, and decided that a bridge was not needed. Our traveler would have to go east to Bismarck (on the interstate~ no local thru roads good enough for comfortable bike travel, you know) and then North on another 4 lane highway.
"What if I take these roads" he says, pointing to the map.
That is more than 100 miles with no town or city at all along the way!
Well at least subway trains are not the only thing that don't go anywhere out here.
Elias
Bike riding is great -- but you have to have a plan for when something goes wrong. Riding alone across a long stretch of unpopulated road is foolhardy. (The stretch that I am proposing to traverse in Jersey is only a few miles long, and it probably contains a few gas stations.)
Conversely, this is why riding in the city is so nice -- you are likely to be within a reasonable distance of a grocery store, a pharmacy, a bike shop, a gas station, a phone, a subway, and other things that will mititgate most problems.
If you don't have that infrastructure behind you, then you have to carry so much stuff with you in order to be properly prepared (food, water, air pump, tubes, tools, first aid, etc.) that, in my opinion, it just ain't worth it.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I just realized, after reading another post on this thread, what your problem is. It's not lack of trains to/from Bayhead. It's the relatively low service levels between Hoboken and Newark on the "Waterfront Connection." Indeed, this connection is set up so that commuters can go from Newark to Hoboken in the morning and back in the afternoon. IIRC, there is only one counter-peak train in the afternoon. Since all Bayhead trains go to Newark (if they get that far), and only one continues to Hoboken, you got a false impression of the Bayhead service because you asked for trains to/from Hoboken instead of Newark.
1. subways and elevated trains 2. city stuff 3. food 4. museums I moved to Oregon in 1969,from Babylon long island,to Oregon,the things which were here then was like going back to 1950,the roads were less congested and the people more friendly, today the same applies execpt there are a whole lot more people and the crime rate is up there,the roads are still freeways as there are no tolls here...yet as groups from Calif. are trying to get them in,as well moving up here and creating versions of wide spread sprawll,the area south west of Portland looks like southern Calif.i miss the subways very much as the light rail does not match it,the food is ok but try to get an eggcream here...anyone know how to make a chocolate eggcream ?pizza by the slice is here,when i asked for it in 1990 people gave me a weird look, museums i miss the museums,there are no real big museums here to visitwe have one large one in portland but it's limited,there are no traction fans here,so i guess if i could i'd like to move back,maby...what are your thoughts....what do you miss and would you move back if you could ? let's talk......
Left NY after finishing Brooklyn Tech HS and my draft notice was in my mail box. Ducked into the Air Force to avoid the draft and wound up in places such San Antonio, Denver, Fort Worth, Los Angeles, New Mexico, Japan, Korea, and Italy and used the GI bill up to and including my Masters. Thank goodness I can find a New York Pizza at Sbarro in any given mall, but missed Katz, fresh White Castle, ERA fan trips, and rides from here to there on a token. Did not miss the city income tax, cramp neighborhoods, or people who never ever left the city for a vacation. I'm still revisiting the city every other month for a quick weekend, still looking for a place to park near Katz. Maybe the Katz in Austin Texas will do for now.
> fresh White Castle
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. :)
-Dave
[[fresh White Castle]
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.]
Without getting into a discussion of White Castle's merits or lack thereof, I do not care to open that can of worms*, I should point out that W.C. is not a New York chain. Its headquarters are in Ohio IIRC.
* = that might be a poor choice of metaphor :-)
Columbus, Ohio, to be exact. The Fast Food Capital of the World. Also HQ'd there are Wendys (the 1st one was on Broad Street) and Bob Evans Restaurants. And no rail transit to speak of. Even a beautiful Union Station was torn down in the 70s or early 80s after Amtrak discontinued the National Ltd. from New York to St. Louis (an old PRR route). All that's left is one of the arches, which was moved to 'Arch Park' and then, when the new science center was built, somewhere else. Occasionally you will see an Amtrak 'special' in Cow-town for the Browns or Bengals, or Indians or Reds, but its rare. And its got no station to stop at. Last Railway Age Passenger Rail Planning Guide mentions light rail proposal. I'll believe it when I see it...
[Columbus, Ohio, to be exact. The Fast Food Capital of the World. Also HQ'd there are Wendys (the 1st one was on Broad Street) and Bob Evans Restaurants. And no rail transit to speak of. Even a beautiful Union Station was torn down in the 70s or early 80s after Amtrak discontinued the National Ltd. from New York to St. Louis (an old PRR route) ... Last Railway Age Passenger Rail Planning Guide
mentions light rail proposal. I'll believe it when I see it]
Maybe there is some hope. I've never been there, but ISTR reading that Columbus has a fairly large concentration of jobs downtown (some of them, probably, at Wendy's and WC), which I suppose could be enough to support light rail.
To continue discussion of this topic, go to new message: Columbus, OH Transit (long, continue topic from previous thread...)
>>>Columbus, Ohio, to be exact. The Fast Food Capital of the World. Also HQ'd there are Wendys
I always thought Wendy's HQ was in Dublin, Oh. Is that near Columbus?
Peace,
ANDEE
You're right, it is, as I mention in discussion continued here...
Nathans, Good Deli, Bakery, Pizza, Sbaarro is a poor excuse for NY Pizza, Half decent public transportation, kids I grew up with, finding a lot of them on classmates.com. THE YANKEE AND GIANT GAMES LIVE AND ON TV.
Yankee and Giant games on TV. Friend or no friend, for a Brooklynite to spout such drivel and not mention the Brooklyn Dodgers in tantamount to treason. When I visited my grandparents in Bensonhurst and Avenue U, we used to chase the Yankee fans down the block and pants them. Then we would throw those damn Yankee pants up a tree. The only Giant fans I ever heard of in Brooklyn were Jeff Chandler, the actor, and Joe Torre. Yeeeeeek, what a nerd.
A Nerd. 3 World Series in 4 Years, a former MVP and All Star, and a Pisano, at least he is from Brooklyn not QUEENS. He switched to being a Brave Fan later anyway when Frank signed.
Enjoy it while you can because your boys and getting a little long in the tooth, and Jeter can't carry them by himself. Another decade of reckoning is coming for your Yankees. See what you say then.
You forget about the great season Bernie Williams is having, and Posada the catcher. Paul O Neil is only slightly off and so is Tino. They had such 2 good seasons previously, that it is hard to compare. but their experience will help down the 2nd half of the season, the White Sox does not have the expierence, pitching will come back. Another trade by the 31st
Plus he even managed the Mets for a couple of seasons
When I visited my grandparents in Bensonhurst and Avenue U...
You're talking as if Avenue U is a neighborhood.
[You're talking as if Avenue U is a neighborhood.]
I think this is an example of what Doug was talking about in this earlier dialogue:I do apologize for my faceious statement "as you are with everything else". I was only making a snide reference to your reknown ability at SubTalk for correcting everyone on even the most minute details in a discussion.
"Yes, I know about that.
I have to try to cut down."
Why should someone go their whole life thinking that a neighborhood is called Avenue U?
There's a neighborhood called Pelham Parkway, it's not inconceivable that someone thinks that another road has the same situation.
We used to call the Business Section of Kings Highway the neighborhood, Then it was Flatbush, Not it is Midwood, and a dozen other names, but the neighborhood is where you lived, and went to school and played
PIZZA!!!
NOBODY can make pizza like it's done in New York. Oh yeah, there are literally hundreds of "New York pizza" stores out here in California, but they just cannot get it right for some strange reason.
Of course, L.A. is (was??) home to Shakey's Pizza. When I first came out here, I was appalled at how they made pizza. They run the dough through a wringer (yes, like an old washing machine!) and then they put the sauce on with a four-inch PAINTBRUSH!!!! Of course, the final result IS like eating a piece of wallboard.....
I spent 22 years in Montana, am now in North Dakota..yes, I enjoy the life, but on food??? You can get bagels, "Jewish" Rye, "Italian or French" bread in the supermarkets, but as you say about the pizza, these are not the real McCoy at all. I will say the New York bagel chain in Bismarck (nationwide I assume) have good bagels.
Shakey s Barf. There is a Good NY Pizza Place in Westwood Village by UCLA
I miss the subway. I especially miss the Sea Beach. I miss the Cyclone, and the Brooklyn Bridge. That's about it because the candy stores are all gone, you can't get an egg cream, LaRosa spaghetti is no more ( never found out what happened there), they don't play stickball anymore. New York is a great place to visit, and after a week get the hell out of town. It makes me sad in a way.
I kind of agreed, as of 16 years ago a few of my friends in the SF Valley used to get together at Cal State Northridge(all of us from NYC Area) and play stick ball. We had to use Tennis Balls since Spauldeens were not made at that time, and old broom sticks. We did gather a crowd to watch to see a bunch of guys in their 40s playing a game like that. But we played for distance and against the wall rather then run and have a catcher. Then we would go to Encino to Nathans(yes Nathans) for franks, fries and drinks, or Carvels in Granada Hills. Both are gone now
Bob Buddy, you struck a cord. That's the way we played in in the housing projects. I won a stickball tournament in 1954 at Bryant High School, just before we moved to California. It was for 12-13 years and I won six traight games of five innings to win a plaque. We very eldom used the bounce type. I also used tennis balls. They actually could be make to really sink. Good show. But I haven't played stickball since. I thought about introducing it around where I live to the kids. It actually helped me in baseball by sharpening my eye.
I understand Spauldeens are back at 2.50 each at Modells
Another BiTcHeS graduate? That's makes three (including Train Dude). I'm of class 1969, but only #171 in the draft. I don't miss Brooklyn Tech, except for the trip getting there and back (usually with a Q Brightliner).
--Harry
There are lots & lots of folks right here who haven't taken the time to experience all that there is in the city.
Even the cheep stuff ... how can you not do: - Thanksgiving/Halloween/Christmas/St. Pat's parade once in your life
- Statin Island Ferry
- Statue of Liberty & Ellis Island
- Rockefella Centre at Christmas, hot roasted chestnuts from a push cart.
- Just a walk down Brodway
- A subway ride to Coney Island or the Rockaways
Mr t__:^)
Do they still have the 5th Avenue Easter Parade? I remember going there once with my mother circa. 1945 expecting something like the St. Patrick's Day parade and being greatly disappointed to find it was just people strolling along the Avenue with vehicle traffic barred.
Tom
Oh yes you still get some people who come out on that day, but it's not an organized thing.
Mr t__:^)
I remember the winter of 1982... I walked across the street from the place I worked, and asked for a one way ticket to Bismarck North Dakota. The travel agent looked at me like I had two heads. (It would have been cheaper to buy a round trip ticket, and then just tear up the other half.)
People ask me if I miss the city, I thell them, no, but it is a Long wait for a Subway Train. Of course I miss the Subways, I have ridden on every line Including the Myrtle El, the Third Avenue El (Bronx edition) and my father told me that we rode on the Third Avenue El (Manhattan Edition) when I was still a baby. I was the one standing up by the storm door, pretending that the door handle was the controler, and making appropriate noises. (No wonder the motorman kept his door closed).
Even today, I am planing a vacation to visit my parents in Pennsylvania later this month, and plotting with a friend in Boston to meet in the city for some subway riding. Dad retired at the same time as I moved out here, so the LIRR lost two good customers on the same day, but they seem to have gotten along without us.
It is so nice to have this Website, and Forum board to visit. Thanks for being New York.
Elias
I miss riding the subway, sabrett hotdogs w/onions, knishes, pizza of course, and all the finest of everything NYC has to offer...Now the only thing I really ride on a regular basis are the fine warships of your Navy here in Norfolk.
The subways. And real NY kosher deli. Not too many more of those I noticed during my recent visits. Zeimar's in Brighton Beach either closed or moved somewhere. But Adelman's on Kings Highway in Midwood still going strong, cream soda, half sour pickles, crinkle-cut french fries, and corn beef.
What do I miss most since I left NYC?
1) Riding the 3rd Avenue El all the way from Gun Hill Road to South Ferry, especially the express portion with the upper level express stations.
2) The Bert & Ernie commercials for Piel's beer on TV
3) The great taste of Ruppert's Knickerbocker beer.
4) Having three major league baseball teams within the city limits.
5) Riding the Hudson Day Line side paddle wheel boats up to Poughkeepsie and back.
6) Seeing the Camel sign with the man blowing smoke rings in Times Square.
7) Spending a day at Steeplechase Park, especially riding the mechanical horses, and since it is just outside the park, riding the Parachute Jump.
8) Going to the vaudeville theater in Jamaica to see seven acts of vaudeville and a film.
9) Stopping in for a quick one at Breslin's Irish bar on Roosevelt Ave & Main Street in Flushing when returning to that Irish Catholic enclave from Manhattan.
10) Taking a trip to Palisades Park to swim in the big salt water pool with the artificial waves.
11) Seeing friends off for a Trans-Atlantic crossing on one of the big ocean liners that dock on the Hudson River.
I'm looking forward to my next trip to New York when I can again enjoy all these things! :-^)
Tom
[2) The Bert & Ernie commercials for Piel's beer on TV]
Bert and Harry?
Bert & Harry were actually Bob & Ray, weren't they?
[Bert & Harry were actually Bob & Ray, weren't they?]
Yes, I think so.
Bob Elliott and Ray Goulding were well known radio (what's that?) personalities from the late 1940's and early 1950's, and I just always assumed that they were the ones portraying Bert & Harry Piel on TV.
They were actually still on the air (on WOR) in the mid 70's. I know because I was driving a cab and a passenger recommended that I listen to them. I listened to them religiously after that. I'm not sure the year but it couldn't be before 6/72 because that's when I started hacking.
Yes they were Bob and Ray were Bert and Harry Piels. Does anybody remember the Miss Reingold Beauty Pagents?
>>> Does anybody remember the Miss Reingold Beauty Pagents? <<<
Bob;
Ah yes, Miss Rheingold! Here's a link to an article about The Miss Rheingold Contest. I am sure glad that Hugh Hefner was not as timid as Philip Liebmann.
Tom
I sure do. I remember Mary Austin from Brooklyn. She was Miss Reingold 1952. She was an absolute beauty. That is the first girl I ever went ga ga over, the second was Joan Culver, the Rose Queen of 1956.
"...the second was Joan Culver, the Rose Queen of 1956."
Joan Culver! What about Joan Sea Beach?
Pigs: You're an ok guy but comedy is not your strong point. Try again.
It wasn't so much a joke as a word pun.
Remember the subway car ads?
They always started with "Meet Miss Rheingold"!
"I'm not sure the year but it couldn't be before 6/72 because that's when I started hacking."
Those old computers must have been fun. :-)
Just kidding.
Actually you weren't too far off. There were alot of guys back then that messed with the meters so they could make more money. I guess they were the predecessors of today's computer hackers.
That would be Bert & Ernie from NY. Bert likes pigions & Ernie loves his rubber ducky
Mr t
Ahh...drinkin' Piels and watching Sesame Street the best of both worlds. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
"3) The great taste of Ruppert's Knickerbocker beer."
Did you have the opportunity to Knock...Knock...for Knickerbocker?
Believe it or not that's the way I knock on people's doors when I visit.. the Knickerbocker knock. How many years later?
I guess I must have learned it watching the local portion of the Steve Allen Tonight Show many years ago.
Knickerbocker was his sponsor on the 15 minute New York portion.
It had to be 45 years ago!
>>> Knock...Knock...for Knickerbocker? <<<
Sorry, I don't recognize the reference. That may have come about after I left. I just long for the unique taste.
Tom
Are any of the old NY Bears still around, Knickerbocker, Schafer, Ballentines(Newark) Piels, Reingold.???
Rheingold is supposed to be making a comeback in the N.Y.C. area, while Schaefer was bought out in the 1980s by Stroh's, which in turn was bought out by G. Heinemann in the mid 1990s. They've collected a lot of the regional beers under one roof, along with the once-mighty Schlitz brand, and distribute them throughout much of the U.S. now, with Schaefer serving as the company's `low market end' beer.
Its Funny, 2 years ago I was in Tibet, and the biggest selling beer there PABST BLUE RIBBON in 1/2 litre bottles, bottled in Lhasa Tibet
Bob;
It is a shame how the mighty have fallen. In 1950, Schaefer's was the 5th best selling beer in the country, and Rheingold was the 6th best selling beer. Both were brewed in Brooklyn.
Here is a link to A History of Schaefer's Beer
Tom
[Schaefer's was the 5th best selling beer in the country]
" ... the one beer when you're having more then one ..."
I came to like the taste more after I came back from Germany one Fall,
and also it was the ONE BEER that my kids didn't like !
Used to be made in Brooklyn with city water that they had to filter the chlorine out of ! Then they moved operations to Penn.
(are these facts in the History ?)
Mr t__:^)
New York City water was found the be the best drinking water in the country by various orgs, like Consumer Reports, NBC Dateline, US Geo. Survey, and others.
Must be all the frog & fish pee pee from the Catskils :-)
Mr t
My dad and our relative all drak Schaefer Beer. They sponsored the Brooklyn Dodgers. Remember this jingle:
The painter said as he was choosing
colors that are light and clear.
Just one thing will please my palete
and that's Shaefer pale dry beer.
Make it clear, make it Schaefer
when you do you always will.
Make it clear, make it Schaefer
our hand has never lost its skill.
Make it clear, make it Scheafer
that's the way to order beer.
Ballantine beer was a TV sponsor of Phillies games in the late '50's. My favorite commercial (animated) was set on a subway platform and a public address speaker blared out "Hey getcher cold beer; hey getcher Ballantine..."
Or "What'll you have ... " i.e. a Blue Ribbion beer.
It also sponsored the Yankees and there was the houseman Yankee rooter Mel Allen bragging about the Yankees and Ballantine. The beer sucked and so did Allen. He couldn't carry Red Barber's shoes.
Yeh, but Red Barber went over to the Yankees. But I have to admit, Scully is the best baseball announcer there is
As a kid, Ballentine Sponsored the Yankees. Mel Allen used to say, Going, Going Gone for a Ballentine Blast, and now I will have a White Owl Cigar
Of course I miss the NYC transit system. I'm in the Wash DC area and WMATA is nice, but NYCTA is unique. I really misss riding express trains. I miss the 24hr service and frequent service. I just really miss the "City that doesn't sleep". I'm in Bethesda, MD now, and it's a really nice place to live, but you can't take the NY out of the person. I'm really big on pizza and italian icees which you don't find here. There is pizza of course, but not real mom and pop NY pizza. Strolling in Manhattan.
When I first moved - I had a bad case of the grass seeming to be greener on the other side. I'm settled now (nearly 4 years later) and even though I'd move back if a really good opportunity came my way, but I'd probably never live in NYC again.
What I don't miss (actually thrilled to be away from) is the non-courteous drivers NYPD and Giuliani.
Wayne
I boarded the 2 nd car of the Kawasaki set at 33rd st on the 6. The ride was smooth as silk. When we reached CITY HALL thet allowed everyone ride through the city hall loop. The old CITY HALL Station was a contrast of old and new. I spoke to one of the car designers who was talking about the technology in the upcoming r-150 order(yes post r-143). One feature on r143-150 that will be different is that they will have automatic roling ad signs that will altinate between ads and destination signs.
>>One feature on
r143-150 that will be different is that they will have automatic roling ad signs that will altinate between ads and destination signs.<<
Sounds like the MTA's answer to the rotating ad signs behind home plate and on the sideline tables at all the NBA arenas, but is it going to do that both on the inside and outside?
I'd hate to be running for a train, not knowing if its the 2 or 3 and seeing an ad from some ambulance chasing lawyer in the slot at that moment instead of the route destination sign.
The Montreal Metro has had this "feature" for some time.
Here's a photo of one displaying the date & time.
Todd
The R142 has the clock INSIDE the car. I would like to see what happens when Daylight Savings Time ends.
I'd hope that if your average Windows 95 computer can keep an internal clock to reset itself when Daylight Savings ends and arrives, they could stick that little item on the 142s.
My fear, though, is with the abuse, power surges and the like on the lines, after a few years the clocks will be about as accurate as every clock on gymnasium walls at schools across the United States.
It may not appear that way, but the sign in the photo is inside the car... you are seeing the reflection in the window. The time alternates with desination information and ads. It's actually quite entertaining.
Hmmmm.... if the R142s had clocks, and they were tied in with the funky locator system we were discussing, I wonder if when Daylight Saving Time hits, if the trains' locations would skip ahead an hour in the spring, and back an hour in the fall???
So maybe the GPS will reset itself once it comes above ground?
It could only occur automatically if the computer has a date routine built in.
Dr Zizmor's name in lights ... I can see it now (eeech!)
--Mark
THere will be a transponder in the tunnel that will tell the train to put the line indicators back up
How do you know this? When will these transponders be installed?
Will these same transponders be able to synch the signs and audio to the correct location on the line?
It sounds awfully expensive to use transponders - why not just use very large barcodes?
Bombardier R-142s may be somewhat delayed. From one unconfirmed report I heard today, the cars are inappropriately interfacing with the Signal system and even some turnstiles. More later......
That sounds right. I think Bambarder faces fines for the delay since they didn't meet the new MTA Deadline. A T.S.S told be the fines may be up to 40,000 a day for Bambarder. On the other hand you have (Kaw) do good with the new trains.
About your comment regarding Bombardier’s delays in delivering R-142’s in relation to Kawasaki: I sort of recall something similar in the 1980’s regarding the R-62 and R-62A’s. And Bombardier had similar problems, from what I recall.
But I have yet to step onto an R-142. Maybe I’ll be surprised one way or another. . . .
This does not bode well for the R-142. Bombardier had problems 15+ years ago with R-62's, Acela has problems up the ying-yang. Maybe Bombardier has supplanted AdTranz as the QualityLESS Shop.
[Maybe Bombardier has supplanted AdTranz as the QualityLESS Shop.]
Well Bombardier's Plattsburgh, NY plant certainly has. But the products they make overseas and in Canada seem to be doing well. What gives? Is the Plattsburgh plant jinxed or something? Why doesn't Bombardier do something about the quality in that plant?
When you award contracts based on political considerations -- i.e. more jobs for New York State -- you increase the likelyhood of something like this happening.
Either the Bombardier officials know they're going to still be given a chance to bid on future contracts, because they're the only subway car manufacutrer based in the state, or the workers at the plant know they don't have to be as quality-control minded, becuase the politcians are not going to yank the contract and risk shutting down the plant and possibly throwing people out of work who are going to turn around and vote against them in the next election.
Too bad there's no way to revive Pullman Standard (despite the Rockwell truck problems, the R-46s were nice from the moment they arrived) or get American Car Foundary to stop building nothing but railroad freight cars to at least allow some domestic rail car competition, but the Bombardier order will have to foul up to the point that entry into service is eight months to a year late before anyone's going to start questioning the wisdom of the current contract situation.
No matter what happens, at least there will be enough Kawasakis around to get rid of the rustiest R-26/28/29s by this time next year...
[No matter what happens, at least there will be enough Kawasakis around to get rid of the rustiest R-26/28/29s by this time next year...]
That's true. They just had to run the Kawasaki cars on the 6, a line that has R62As, didn't they? Would it have killed the MTA to have run the Kawasakis on the 2? The Curse strikes again! The #2 line is cursed and that damn curse just won't go away!
Aren't the Bombardier R142s' entry into service already eight months late? Weren't they supposed to go into service in September 1999? But one thing I would really like to know is why Bombardier's new Red line Cars in Boston don't seem to be having so much trouble as their 142s are? Were they built in a different plant maybe?
Are the Red Line cars as technically advanced as the 142s, and were they assembled in the Upstate New York plant? A `no' to either of those questions might explain the difference.
As far as the 2 is concerned, so long as the Kawasaki order continues to come in as scheduled, the MTA may decide to shift some of those trains over to the East 180th St. shop so Seventh Ave. riders can have at least a few new cars. It would also keep a lot of people from noticing the Bombardier problems, since outside of railfans, most riders won't know the difference between a 142 and a 142A, they'll just see that a new train is finally on their line.
Are the Red Line cars as technically advanced as the 142s, and were they assembled in the Upstate New York plant? A `no' to either of those questions might explain the difference.
The manufacturer's name plates on the MBTA Red Line Bombardiers list Quebec and Vermont as the building locations. Specific cities aren't mentioned.
-- David
Boston, MA
Okay, I lied. The manufacturer's plates on the Bombardier 01800's read as follows:
Built by:
Bombardier, Inc.
La Pocatiére, Quebec, Canada
and
Bombardier Corporation
Barre, Vermont, USA
-- David
Boston, MA
I wonder if ACF still has the R-10 blueprints somewhere.:-)
I wonder if the planet still has ACF somewhere.
Well, I know the R-142A's are on the 6 now since I just rode on one today, but what about the Bombardier set? Where is that? Is it in passenger service too?
The Bombardiers will be on the #2. They will appear when they arrive and tested.
Talk about R142 First Trip, today I rode it for the first time myself, if anyone cares by now! I got on the uptown #6 at Brooklyn Bridge around 1:50pm. These new trains will make you think that you're not in NYC at all!
07/11/2000
[Talk about R142 First Trip, today I rode it for the first time myself, if anyone cares by now! I got on the uptown #6 at Brooklyn Bridge around 1:50pm. These new trains will make you think that you're not in NYC at all!]
Well after the novelty wears off and the cars get dirty inside and out and the beggars and immigrants selling Duracells for ONE DOLLAR-ONE DOLLAR return, you'll know you're in New York.
Bill "Newkirk"
I once saw Duracell rip offs. They look the same with the gold end but say Paracell!!!
Or Plenticell.
Hmmm... But at least now we know what the R-68's use for power. :-)
(couldn't resist)
-- David
Boston, MA
I would buy them. All batteries are the same just the brand names are twice the money. I ALWAYS buy the store brand or the no-frills ones when I buy batteries. (not car or motorcycle batteries though)
>>> All batteries are the same just the brand names are twice the money <<<
Jeff;
I can't agree with you on that. I carry a pager which is on 24-7, and have found through empirical testing on the AAA size battery that Duracell and Eveready Energizer are equivalent, but all the other batteries including private store labels and rechargeable batteries provide about 1/3 to 1/2 the life of those two brands. I have not yet tried the new batteries advertized as "ultra long life."
Tom
Rechargeable is 1.2v, regular is 1.5, and rechargeable batteries are alsways about 1/2 the life of alkalines. My portable TV lasts 2 hours with rechargeable, 4 with regular.
[Well after the novelty wears off and the cars get dirty inside and out and the beggars and immigrants selling Duracells for ONE DOLLAR-ONE DOLLAR return, you'll know you're in New York.]
Bill, be careful about the 'immigrants' remark. After all, at one point in our -- or our families lives -- we ALL qualified as immigrants.
Doug aka BMTman
07/13/2000
The immigrant remark wasn't a insult about them basically, it's just that they are probably of illegal nature and hawking items on the subway which is against Transit Authority rules. Remember the Golden Venture fiasco?
Bill "Newkirk"
I just hope that they are not like the Mexcian vendors whom were held like slaves until the smugglers were busted.
Already saw (and listened to the usual pleas of) a beggar going through the new R142A's on the downtown 6 Tuesday evening.
Did the beggar on the new equipment have a hand written or an electronc sign requesting money? If electronic, did the amount requested vary with the communities through which the train was running?
Sounds like that Post article a year ago talking about impropoer wiring on the Bombardier R-142s was accurate, though I'd love to know more about that interfacing problem with the turnstiles.
Oh well, if only the MTA had ordered 500 snowmobiles or jet skis to run on the A Division lines, Bombardier would have done a great job :-)
Not if they had to build them in the NY plant.
Wasn't the NY plant built from scratch for this contract and staffed mainly with people who had never worked on subway cars (or snowmobiles or jetskis, for that matter)?
It takes time for a company to build up an experienced work force. TA management must have known this when they placed the order. There were a number of considerations that had to be balanced in making the decision. In a few months, maybe we will have enough information, with the benefit of hindsight, to pass judgment.
"From one unconfirmed report I heard today, the cars are inappropriately interfacing with the Signal system and even some turnstiles."
Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night. Are you saying that they don't interface correctly or that they shouldn't interface at all with the signals and turnstiles?
From one unconfirmed report I heard today, the cars are inappropriately interfacing with the Signal system and even some turnstiles.
Sounds like the Bombardiers may need to be hosed down with some cold water. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
So does that mean if some poor schlub swipes his Metrocard at the turnstile at the 79th Street station the No. 2 express that's passing by is going to suddenly go haywire?
I once had a Chrysler New Yorker rental car where when you stepped on the break, the digital clock over the glove compartment changed time. Sounds like the Bombardier 142s are going to be just as much fun :-)
[I once had a Chrysler New Yorker rental car where when you stepped on the break, the digital clock over the glove compartment changed time.]
I had a '38 Chevy (which I bought in 1959) with a short in the stoplight switch that would make the clock stop 7 minutes after stepping on the brake pedal. I went through a box of fuses before I figured out what was causing it.
I broaded the frist cars R142A #7220 at 125th Street while i was coming from the job interview. You were right the train run smooth & quiet. There a lot of people from MTA broaded the train. I was standing right next to guy who work for MTA & one of passerger asking him what line this cars getting? He said #2,#5,#6 & #7 with be getting R142 & also he said something about #2 R142 didn't go on service because of some kind of problem. Well i have a great time riding a new R142A today
Peace Out
David Justiniano
The No.7 will get the R62A'S and the No.6 will be a full R142A Fleet. Saturday was the First time I rode the R142A and it was a good ride. When I went for trainning it was on the R142 Bombarder Type. I like the Kawaiski better.
"I like the Kawaiski better."
Why? How about some details?
He was porbably training for operation. Mayhaps the handling and/or control positions and operations on the Kawasakis is better than that of the Bombardier?
>>...the No.6 will be a full R142A Fleet
Compensation for the lack thereof
of the 2nd Ave line?
Giving the Lex'ers the futuristic
gleamers as a way to silence the
demand for a 2nd Ave. line?
Not like they passed the test, yet.
1SF9
I am trying to figure out if i actually got on the first revenue run of the Kawasaki R142 today. As i got into 68th st at 1:20pm, a r-62 #6 was pulling out. I got on another r-62 right after that one. Then i switched to a #4 at 42nd street to get to Brooklyn Bridge faster. As i passed 33rd street, the R-142 appeared out of nowhere on the 6 Line. I got off at 14th street and eventually got on to the R-142 at 1:30. I took it to brooklyn bridge...there was a guy in every car in a suit and a white shirt officer in my car. The train was nice...like a brand new car....the seats actually seem to be contoured to your back...and are very comfortable. It was definately the most quiet ride i had in any NYC subway car. I wish i could have taken it around city hall but i had to return to work...others stayed on the train eventhough the male computer voice told everyone that this is the last stop and that you must exit the train.
You were on the first revenue run. The train went into service at 33rd street southbound at about 1:20 or so. I was waiting for a half hour with MTA officials and sworms of news media. YOU MADE YOUR MARK IN HISTORY
Went through the loop, eh? How did she handle that tight curve; i.e. did she "sing" like the Redbirds (and the R62A's) "sing"?
Even the newest cars are going to make some noise.
wayne
Did not hear a single screech. Tell you the truth It was so smooth,you did not notice when she sped up or slowed down for a stop.
Ah, but the real question is, once the R-142s are assigned to an express, how FAST will they go?
It sounds as if they ride as smoothly and quietly as our LRVs in Denver.
Better hope they don't run as smoothly and quietly as our R68s. :-)
They flew up the Pelham express, or at least gave the illusion of speed.
I will have to seek out a train of R-142s this fall and see for myself. It can be difficult to tell how fast you're going if a train is running smoothly and quietly. As I've said, our LRVs in Denver are so quiet you don't realize the train is doing 55.
Steve - see my recent post re. FirstImpressions, that will give you my observations.
They weren't burning up the rails today. R29 #8802 on the #5 was! So was R40M #4500 (ex.4300) through the 14th Street tube today. Man did he charge those timers like a lion tamer!
Funny thing abut #4500 - first time I saw that train was ALSO on the "LL", back on August 4, 1969. It was wearing #4300 then. And the A/C was working just as well today as it was back in 1969.
wayne
07/30/2000
[Funny thing abut #4500 - first time I saw that train was ALSO on the "LL", back on August 4, 1969. It was wearing #4300 then. And the A/C was working just as well today as it was back in 1969.]
August 4th,1969 was not only my 18th birthday, but the day the last BMT Standards ran in service on the Myrtle-Chambers. Some birthday present! Wasn't #4500(ex-4300) involved in that wreck on Queens Blvd?
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's one for you: Ford discontinued the Edsel on my third birthday - Nov. 19, 1959.
I haven't had any luck at all in getting a nice express run along Lexington Ave., Redbirds or R-62s. The Park Ave. straightaway has been a different story.
"Ah, but the real question is, once the R-142s are assigned to an express, how FAST will they go?"
Well, On the 6 today they were going 38...
When the trains were new in the 30 day test, the field shunting was not removed yet according to a technician on the train. The train reached speeds of 53 on the Pelham express. They have removed field shunting not long ago and the trains can only reach 45 on the same track.
That's the...
running on...
's
speed.
One of my counterparts demonstrated a utility program he downloaded from someone's website. It will allow the used to read the ******** that denote your password in most applications. I will not reveal the name of the software nor where he got it but he was able get my password and log onto my computer. Watch your passwords.......
I know of the software, it is very popular but can only be used if the person had access to your computer and you store passwords.
-Harry
A lot of programs do that. Best not to keep the passwords or log in on public systems. Some systems like Novell Netware 4.0 don't even have the wildcards. The password field remains blank.
Thanks for the heads up.
I was thinking that it might be possible to come up with a new card which would be a hybrid pay-per-ride and unlimited ride card. You would be charged on a PPR basis until you've payed as much as the cost of an unlimited for that period of time, then you will no longer be charged.
Assuming that someone buys a card for $63 at the start of a month and intends to use it 3 times each weekday. The card would contain $69.30 in value and it would work along the following lines:
DAY ONE
First two rides charged at $1.50 each, third ride charged at $1.40, card converted to Fun Pass.
DAYS TWO, THREE AND FOUR
Same as one
DAY FIVE
First ride charged at $1.50, second charged at $1.20, card converted to 7 day unlimited with expiration on what would be day 7 (so it would really be a 3 day unlimited
DAYS SIX AND SEVEN
Our protagonist isn't riding
WEEKS TWO AND THREE
Work exactly as week one.
WEEK FOUR
Works just like week one until day 3 of that week, which would be day 24:
DAY TWENTY-FOUR
Works like day 5 on week one, except card is converted to a 30 day unlimited, and our story ends.
And you expect the public to be able to follow this?
It's easier to follow than what we have now -- just buy a card and start using it. No need to worry that you've only ridden twice on your Fun Pass or that you've used your PPR three times in one day -- this card will automatically give you the best deal.
There would still be fun passes.
If you've noticed, I've marked up the prices to account for the 10% bonus.
If a person buys a card for $17, it would come with $18.70 and that's as much as would be needed for the card to be converted to unlimited. However, a person only needing a single fun pass would have to put $4.40 on the card in order to account for the markup because no bonus is given. The MTA can lower the minimum bonus amount to $4, but at that point, it might as well not have a bonus and just lower the fare to $1.35.
Fine. But if I plan on using as few as four Fun Passes within the expiration period of one card, I can simply pay $16 for one of your fancy cards and it'll work out as the equivalent to four Fun Passes.
Yes, but for a person riding for 3 or less days with no intention to ride again soon, individual Fun Passes would be a must.
No argument here.
What about express buses?
It would work the same way. Any ride including an express bus would work toward a $132 value for an express bus plus card.
Or if you have enough non-express rides for a 30 day ($69.30) and then ride express busses for more than $62.70, then you would get an Exp Bus plus.
In order for it to work effectively, it would need to store the total amount spent on local service and express service (the storage would be separate) for each of the last 30 days. It is extremely unlikely that a magnetic stripe can efficient store all that data. Not that it can't but it would have too many tracks and too thin sectors, breeding unreliability.
At that point, one can store
A guess:
It could be an "unlimited card" for local subway/bus and the serial number recorded. If they dont pay the number could be entered into the system, thereby invalidating the card.
That is what they do with lost/stolen reduced fare/student/employee cards
I don't understand, are you saying that the card would be post-payed like an electric bill?
Let me try this way:
a school pass is issued in September. It is good for the school term.
OK so far?
now- the student loses the pass. The student tells the school which tells transit that the student's pass was stolen/lost. That serial number is now invalidated. Still with me?
next- let's mobe to the yearly MetroCard. Let's say that the cardholder does not pay for month 3. It semes that the Transit Center (The peopole who handle Transit Chek) would tell transit to invalidate that card. therefore when deadbeat tries to use their card on the first day of the fourth month it would come up as an invalid card.
I'm not confused as to invalidation, but I'm confused as to why this has to be done with cards that are pre-paid. When I asked you if they would be post-paid, you said nothing to that effect.
A card would be invalidated if:
1-lost
2-Stolen
3- at the end of whatever period the customer paid, if new payment was not made.
4- We can not fix these at the booth. They have to contact Transit Center (The Transit Check people.)
What does this have to do with TransitChek? (not a typo)
Why are you putting all of this stuff about invalidation and such in the thread? Does it have anything to do with my proposal on automatic unlimiteds? If not, do you have any other reason you put this in this thread?
- Sr/Disabled have pre-paid & post-paid MC.
- The post-paid they get a bill based on the activity.
- The newest pre-paid "TransitChek" is an "unlimited" monthly that automatically gets re-newed each month for a year.
- Smart Cards will offer the customer AND the TA some more options. Plus the message will change for "swipe again" to "show again" or "get closer I can't read your MC" or "Will that be MC, MasterCard, VISA or Am Express today ?" (i.e. a pocket full of smart cards as you pass by the reader).
Mr t__:^)
In order for it to work effectively, it would need to store the total amount spent on local service and express service (the storage would be separate) for each of the last 30 days. It is extremely unlikely that a magnetic stripe can efficient store all that data. Not that it can't but it would have too many tracks and too thin sectors, breeding unreliability.
At that point, one can store bonuses and actual payments separately for a more efficient system.
I can see the obvious benefits to this for the passengers? What is the benefit to the MTA?
There was no benefit for the MTA to implement unlimited rides, yet they did so under public pressure anyway.
It would be a gimmick to encourage use of Smart Cards when they come out.
As an employee of the MTA I got a to 33rd St on time today and photographed/videotaped the R142A in it's first revenue run. I got in first at my door when they opened and quickly sat down. I am now the first person ever to sit in these cars...(At least the first person while they were in revenue service.) Anyway off of this uneccessary information....
I have posted all of the pictures and movies on my website (http://www.zdeno.com). One of the movies is one shot within the front transverse cab during service- check it out- it is a little over a megabyte. I have been developing this site for the past couple of weeks and have accumulated hundreds of pictures from the system and posted then on the site. Feel free to browse around and look at what has been completed. There are still a few blank pages that I have no images for. Click on the first link on the site to see pictures of the 142's (In testing and service today). I also have many pictures of the White Plains Road Line (Up to East 180th) in addition to images of R46, all types of Redbirds, The Transit Museum, The Recent Nostalgia Trip, LIRR- Montauk Branch and some pictures from inside the East 180th St. Yard. I will also make a section soon that has the major incidents (that I am allowed to report) of the day from within the NYCTA.
So Please Give My Site A Visit (and maybe a bookmark as well). Don't expect there to be tons of pictures on everything listed above- I have only been taking these pictures during the last three weeks.
Click the link below to check it out. If you have questions or comments I would really appreciate them either by responding to this post, e-mailing me or leaving a message on the message board on my website. Make sure you are aware that all of the images and movies on the site are MINE. Do not casually save them to your hard drive and put them somewhere else. If you are interested in using any of them please e-mail me and we can work something out.
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Thanks,
Harry Beck
Nice shots -- the Grand Central videos are kind of a 2000 counterpoint to that silent film snipped of the High V local arriving at Grand Central on Day 1 of the system in 1904 (though that was the shuttle platform, of course).
Did the train get a reaction from most of the regular (non rail-fan) passengers? I would think even the most non-observant rider would figure out they weren't in an R-62A today.
Most of the people were suprised but tried to keep the NYC poker face- trying not to show any reaction. Some asked me about it because I was dressed like the rest of the MTA people and seemed to know my way around. I told them that they will "replace the red ones". I didn't want to get into anything to complex with the other passengers- just take pictures.
-Harry
Many non-railfans identified it as a new train, the digital signs and automated voices clued them in. The big RED 6 on the front was a clue. I probably rode it the longest anyone here (other than the testing crew) did, from Bleecker St. Downtown at 3:55 to 59st uptown at 6:30. Some hilights:
The talking feature announces the B,D,F,Q at Bleecker in both directions.
The male voice announces messages like "Thank you for riding NYC Transit", "For your safety, please do not hold car doors open", "Please stand away from the doors while the train is in the station", with the digital sign flashing it repeatedly until the next announcement.
When both the C/R and T/O try to set the computerized announcements at once, nothing happens.
Pain in the ass to set the route after the first stop (kept saying "Next stop, Buhre ave", saw them repeatedly attempt to advance the sign by removing all stops until the current one, finally got it right at Grand Central.)
When the train (late) went express to Bleecker and Brooklyn Bridge they couldn't update the talking feature until after Bleecker. Result, people at 14th read "Next stop, Astor pl." and stayed on.
Door problems in one of the cars caused 5 minute delay.
Lexington ave. Local is displayed on the inside only at the terminal, and never again.
Saw a few kids invisioning the car tagged up ("start with the sign").
These cars can fly up the Pelham express!
Some guy took photo for Tokyo newspaper at Pelham Bay Pk.
There appears to be a second layer for ads between the air vents and the lights (that area where the PA is). The TA probably foresaw their future lack of money and decided to put that in for when times are rough.
Nice new stuff. What will prevent the little kids from thinking the end of the bench partition is a ladder?
I really enjoyed the R142 pictutres and movies on your site, especially the ones of the R142A's first revenue run. Well now I know for sure that the outside front LED signs only display red (but it looked like orange to me) but as long as people know that it's a 6 train they shouldn't be confused.
Well I'm glad to see that at least one train of R142s is finally in passenger service - it's about time! I personally would have like to have seen the Kawasaki cars have gone into service on the 2 line first but I suppose I could take the Bx39/White Plains Road bus to Parkchester to catch the new train. It's nice to see an employee of the MTA take so much interest in the subway and make a web site with lots of nice pictures. I quickly bookmarked the site. Bravo, Harry! Keep up the good work.
Ewwww, those R-142's are ugly. Way too many curves. What is wrong with good old American 90o angles. Not to mention that the route indicator on the front is just plain awful. I thought that the 6 line used the colour green. They need to make up their mind about the paint job. Either leave it all stainless steel to paint the whole thing. That red and black patch work is just plain ugly. If I were boss I'd replace that neon 6 with an FRA dual headlight (the train is way under illuminated) and strip off all the front paint.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the red and black patchwork was added as a touching tribute to the retiring redbirds.
Doug aka BMTman
My problem is with the patchwork. I'd prefer a solid black or front or a solid red lower band.
[Ewwww, those R-142's are ugly. Way too many curves.]
What curves? I didn't see any curves except on the roof like all NYC subway cars have. As for the route indicator, I've been told that they can display red and green but it looks like they only display red if the 6 only appears in red. As for "good old American 90-degree curves", American railcar companies abandoned them in the mid-60s and rightly so. Angles look too utilitarian and old.
The curves inside. Those (nearly) vertical handrails look hideous.
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that the inside displays do red and green, but the front line-indicator displays only do red.
Yes, that should be correct, as the (6) or <6> inside the car was green, while the rest of the display was Red.
Ewwww, those R-142's are ugly. Way too many curves. What is wrong with good old American 90o angles.
They're not aerodynamic, and they're less structurally sound.
Not to mention that the route indicator on the front is just plain awful. I thought that the 6 line used the colour green.
If you're as provincial as you make yourself out to be, why do you use the script of a foreign country?
They need to make up their mind about the paint job. Either leave it all stainless steel to paint the whole thing. That red and black patch work is just plain ugly.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In addition to being more visible, the train's bonnet gives it a personality, like the blue stripe of yore. Painting completely is too expensive. And it would be just as monochromatic as is silver, only silver is sleeker than any paint.
If I were boss I'd replace that neon 6 with an FRA dual headlight (the train is way under illuminated) and strip off all the front paint.
Ever wondered why you aren't the boss?
07/10/2000
I was in town today to check out the R-142A and caught the much anticipated "Millenium Train" for a ride to 125th St.I noted the following:
1) The interior lighting was very bright. the interior colors were of cool colors rather than warm colors of tan,orange,yellow & red.
2) Inoticed the ceiling mounted grab rail running down the center with three floor to ceiling poles. Two by the ends and one in the middle.
3) Nice wide doors, hope this doesn't make an excuse for the door blockers!
4) Nice new smell which was disturbed a few stations up the line by some guy who got on and decided to chow down on some Chinese food.
5) The AC traction sounds are similar to the 1000 series WMATA Metro cars.
6) The station announcements were low at first, but the volume must have been raised. The doors closing "chimes" weren't loud like the R-62/62A's. A female voice announced the stations while a male voice announced tranfer points of other lines.
7) Exceleration was nice by braking in the final stage wasn't smooth.
8) After doors closed, there was an unusual delay before excelerating at each station. At 125th St, there was another #6 behind us.
9) Black linoleum floors with speckles look nice, this will be the norm of floors in other class cars as the old tan floors are replaced.
10)Front LED route sign was in RED. The side signs are easy to read and better than the R-44/46 signs.
11)Seating is ergonomic, much like the old Redbirds but not as bad as the R-40's.
12)Riding public was pleased as well as delighted by something new that will retire the Rewdbirds. One guy muttered to another "Yeah they look nice now, but they'll mess them up". Let's hope not.
Bill "Newkirk"
Reporting
>12)Riding public was pleased as well as delighted by something new that will retire the Rewdbirds. One guy muttered to another "Yeah they look nice now, but they'll mess them up". Let's hope not.
Let's hope the TA stays on top of things, although I wouldn't be too surprised to find someone's initials scratched into the glass after a few months, if not sooner.... Some folks never learn to appreciate the subway system, I'm afraid.
-Stef
They have the plastic shield, it will be replaced if scratches occur.
This is what we have on the M-4s in Philly, and it works very well.
My only dislike of the cars was the double end doors. They were hard to open and quick to close on you. I told one of the car engineers that filled the secound car. He wrote down my critisims and will try to make an adjustment. I was one of the first to board her at 33rd street on the 6. THe first station stop in passenger service
Hi Folks, Do these cars in anyway shape or form sound like the R110As at all or are these things totally different? Its a damn shame that they will NEVER see the 7 line (Maybe for a test or two but thats about all from what I see.) Just some 5 car married hand-me-downs from Pelham. :0( Regards, Tom.
I agree that the new cars should have went to the 7 before the 6, 4, 3 and 1 lines (in that order). Interestingly, the R142/142As can be configured into 11-car trains. I guess the reason the first R142A train went to the 6 because the MTA didn't want to risk fouling up the 7 line should the 142s break down in the Steinway Tunnels. Well I guess we may be seeing the introduction of the #11 train as the Flushing Express soon with the transfer of R62As from the 6 and 3 lines to Corona Yard.
"2) Inoticed the ceiling mounted grab rail running down the center with three floor to ceiling poles. Two by the ends and one in the middle."
It's nice to see thay they have come up with the best of both worlds as opposed to just one.
"After doors closed, there was an unusual delay before excelerating at each station."
This was most likely because the new operator forgot to press the "door release" button. I belive this button, while depressed, allows the conductor to open the door (on the left or right, depending on the door release button pressed), and during this time, the train is stopped. This is also the only time that the conductor may open the door. Once the button gets released, the door must stay closed once it is closed or the operator must press the door release button again.
07/10/2000
Today I noticed a few Redbirds with non working air conditioning. One was at Wall St. when I peered from the window of my #4 train and saw some female passengers fanning themselves furiously!. All drop sashes were open, the ultimate giveaway!
If you see a Redbird with windows open, stay clear ! Unless you want to ride in a horizontally moving suana!
I didn't noticed any R-62/62A's with failed A/C. Unless there were some that I didn't see.
BTW- I saw the R-26/ with the R-21/22 storm door drop sash. Does it open?
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW- I saw the R-26 with the R-21/22 storm door drop sash. Does it open?
Yes it does, I was on it and got off at Crand Central at 10:AM. I have (in the past month) opened both the ones on 7773 and the one on 7821.
Took the 7 from Times Square to Grand Central and the A/C on the whole train sucked. No wonder I don't ride the 7 anymore. I'd have gotten heat stroke if I stayed on all the way to Flushing.
Add poor A/C to the "jam packed" conditions on Queens bound 7 trains in PM and it's one of the most unpleasant rides in my opinion.
Much better off taking the E or F to Queens instead.
I also got on at Times Square on my ride home today. I got on the last car so I can get a seat. Initially, it felt a bit cool. But as more and more people got in, that cool turned to humid because of all the people's breathing and I tried not to sweat until I got off at Main St.
If it weren't for the express run, I would have taken the E/F also.
The car I rode in the morning was pretty cool however...
...the red line in los angeles has the same problem ......
I rode the R142 on the 6 leaving Brooklyn Bridge around 8:20pm. Actually I had gotten to BB early so I went up to Union Square and got on the R142 going downtown there, then rode it around and back uptown to Grand Central.
The ride was generally nice, and when passengers got on their general reaction was, "Am I on the wrong train?" or "Is this still New York?" The train was clean and bright and still had a "new car" smell. THe front LED sign on the outside of the train had a RED 6 in a circle. The interior LED signs displayed (6) in green and everything else (I think) in red.
Going downtown everything worked great. Automated announcements were made at the correct stops, with transfer announcements. The "closing door" announcements in the male voice were very soft though, at least from the inside of the train.
First question: I noticed going downtown that at Bleecker, the Q wasn't announced as a transfer, and the M and Z weren't announced at Canal and Brooklyn Bridge. Do the announcements know which trains are running when, and change according to time of day and day of week? A consistent problem has been that conductors announce transfers that obviously don't exist, like J/M/Z at Fulton on a Saturday, or announcing both the N and R in the middle of the night.
Just before leaving BB going uptown, the inside LED signs and line maps shut off. They reset and came back on somewhere around Canal Street, and stayed approximately one stop behind (sometimes two stops behind) for the rest of my ride to Grand Central. Sometimes the stop announcements would go off in the middle of nowhere, so between 28 and 33 Streets the announcement said "This is 28th Street" and then pulling into Grand Central it said "This is 33rd Street".
So my second question is: How do these trains know what to announce, and is it difficult to manually skip announcements? The fact that they stayed wrong for so many stops was disappointing, and on the uptown ride passengers getting on quickly became cynical when they realized the signs and announcements were wrong. Also, I'm curious about why the signs got reset in the first place, and whether it's common.
Third question: It seemed the crew was trying to mute the announcements going uptown to avoid confusion (though the signs still showed the wrong information). However it seemed that going uptown at Bleecker the train still announced transfers to the 6th Ave trains, even though you can only reach them from the downtown side. Is the train able to give different announcements based on direction?
One of the engineers told me that the anounsemnets and strip map inside the cars are triggered by the distance the car traveles from the terminal(sounds like a dumb idea). For instance lets say 28th street is 1 mile from BB. When the car travels .95 miles it makes the anousement for 28th street. I sat next to one of the car engineers on the first run out of 33rd street. He told me that every distance for every station is progrmed into the trains computer. He also went over the differences between the two 142's and how that came about(sloppy contract language which said that the cars had to be able to run together)
Maybe they just ought to take the old "Kawasaki lets the good times roll," song off the 1970s motorcycle commercials and play that over the automated speaker system until they get the bugs worked out on the station announcements :-)
One of the engineers told me that the anounsemnets and strip map inside the cars are triggered by the distance the car traveles from the terminal
Most of the systems on buses use GPS receivers which give the absolute location within 100 feet. Such receivers won't work in the subways, so dead reckoning is required.
This system is bound to fail unless there is a way to frequently and automatically resync these calculations while en route. Such systems are not self correcting. The system is essentially counting wheel revolutions. It does not take slippage into account. Also a 1% deviation in wheel diameter translates into a 1/4 mile deviation after 25 miles.
There is also the rather obvious problem of track diversions. What happens when an express is diverted onto a local track and vice-versa? What will happen when a #2 is diverted onto the Lex?
So, the system did not even last the first day without error. Perhaps giving the conductors elocution lessons would have been more cost effective.
IMHO it seems like a better system would be to have something on the track at each place there should be an announcement (x meters before a station, or at the nearest signal before a station) that would either transmit the announcement, or a code which would trigger the announcement from the train's memory.
Off course this is not cost effective until virtually the entire fleet can use it. Perhaps the present system is just an interim system.
Tom
Or just sprinkle a few spots around the system where the trains can re-synch automatically.
They reset at each station.
07/11/2000
When I was riding the R-142A's yesterday, we bypassed a station that was closed for rehab (110th St?). The train announced the station yet we didn't stop, but continued as if we stopped.
Bill "Newkirk"
An efficient system for catching up would be using the door openings.
Doors opening and closing due to holders would not count because counting would only start again when the train begins to move.
If a stop is skipped, it just won't get the oppurtunity to reset.
Another way is to install a special transponder at each signal, or at least far enough apart that transmits to the train the chaining information about the block it's currently in.
Transmitting from signal to train creates more problems. A train on an adjacent track (ie express next to local) has to ignore it.
An easy system that would fix the station-synch problem would be barcodes. Put large (6"v3') reflective stickers in the tunnel or on the platform edges that the train can scan as it passes by, synching it instantly, with nothing but a simple light and sensor on the train, and a cheap sticker trackside. Barcode technology is very well-developed, so the technology could easily be 90-percent off-the-shelf, making it very cheap.
(6"v3')
Sorry. I meant (6" x 3'), or six-inch by three-feet.
Doesn't WMATA use barcodes? I think I see them on the sides of the Metro. Are they use to, for example, transmit whether the outbound train at Rosslyn is an Orange Line train or a Blue Line train?
>>> the train can scan as it passes by, synching it instantly, with nothing but a simple light and sensor on the train, and a cheap sticker trackside. <<<
Rich;
I think you get the prize for the simplest most elegant solution. I guess this would be a variant of the system the big guys use to keep track of their freight cars.
If all signals were marked with a bar code, the reader could tell when each signal was passed by a train and select the proper announcement for the next station (with a time delay if appropriate) and update any inside the car map of the train's progress. Maintenance on the signals would be having the track crew wipe the decal with a rag whenever they pass it.
The train could also send the information to a central control area, which would then not only detect that a train was passing a given signal, but identify what train it was.
Tom
07/12/2000
Rich,
You forgot two problems.
1) Steel dust will dirty up those bar codes.
2) Vandals who graffitti the tunnels will paint over them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Barcode technology is very well-developed, so the technology could easily be 90-percent off-the-shelf, making it very cheap.
The application that you describe does not coincide with any of the well known barcode applications. There are some challenging design problems - uncontrolled apertures and velocities as well as the inability to rescan. It will not be that simple or that cheap.
Inability to rescan? Nah.
"boop"/flash of red light
"boop"/flash of red light
"beep"/flash of green light
"This is 33rd Street."
[Perhaps giving the conductors elocution lessons would have been more cost effective.]
Now that I think about it, having ridden the R142A today...
At the risk of sounding like one of those if-its-new-its-gotta-be-bad types, which I'm not, I have to ask: Are these LED displays and automated announcements actually necessary? As much as I like new gadgets, is it too much to ask the conductor to pay attention and announce the stops and the passengers to listen, or to look out the window to see at which stop they are? Have we really gotten this lazy? Why go through all of this headache trying to figure out how to solve a problem that can be solved the old fashioned way -- by reverting to the tried and true. I suppose it might be designed to help out-of-towners not familiar with the subway, but an LED display telling them where they are is no more help than the sign on the girder or hearing it over the PA. Perhaps some thought could be put into automatically adjusting the volume of the PA system to a comfortable level at all times, but that about all we need, I'd say.
as lazy as u think it is, its better to have LED signs and computer voice for several reasons
It looks much better with LED, changes easily
And for the automatic announcements, how often can you make out what the conducter says anyway especially if you're on a 7 train with an india conductor. Half the time the announcements the conducter makes doesn't make sense. not to say grammatically incorrect.
07/12/2000
Keystone,
You overlooked that the reason for the visual and automated announcments are probably mandated by the ADA (American with Disablilites Act). Visual for those who can't hear and audio for those are blind.
Bill "Newkirk"
[You overlooked that the reason for the visual and automated announcments are probably mandated by the ADA (American with disablilites Act). Visual for those who can't hear and audio for those are blind. ]
You're probably right, and I'm really not 100% against the new technology, but I figured the hard-of-hearing have the signage within each station to help them (which, I know, doesn't help if you're stuck behind bodies, arms, and legs with no view of the station from within the car) and the blind have the conductor's announcement. The fact that the announcement may be unintelligible or accented is another matter. All-in-all, the new idea is an improvement, but you have to wonder about a solution that causes more problems.
Hopefully they will work out the kinks.
The ADA requires announcements, but I don't think they need to be automated.
What they taught us when we took Artificial Intelligence is that you can't realy on pure dead recokning unless you're dealing with something like a stepper motor on a gear drive... and even then, you shouldn't.
There are several other metrics that could have been combined with distance that would greatly help:
- Did the train stop and open the doors?
- Did the train go through a station? This could be checked with a light sensor. If you think your 1000 feet out of a station and it suddenly gets bright, you're 1000 feet ahead of where you think you are.
In addition to the announcement of "please watch the closing doors", do the doors make a beeping sound as they close like the R110A?
On another note, I think the most interesting and possibly longest announcement will come on the #2 line when the R142 begins running. When approaching Times Square, I imagine the announcement will be like this: Now entering Times Square: Change here for the 1,3,A,C,E,N,R and the shuttle to Grand Central." Pretty entertaining, eh? -Nick
It'll be longer than that -- you forgot the No. 7 train to Flushing.
Fulton Street on the 2 is also going to be a pretty good test for the Bombardier's automated announcements, if they ever get the train into service -- Change for the 3/4/5/A/C/M/J trains, with the C/M/J and 5 announcements having to be time-of-day specific, let alone the fact the Nassau Street platforms are closed on the weekend.
In addition to the announcement of "please watch the closing doors", do the doors make a beeping sound as they close like the R110A?
No, there's a soft and quick ding-dong, and a small blinking light directly above the doorway. If you've heard the announcement tones on the new Boston Red Line cars (the ding-dong, not the door closing tones, which are beep-beep), that's sort of what it sounds like.
I rode the R142(A) again yesterday and noticed that it explicitly announces the transfer to the M60 at 125th St. I overheard some passengers learning about the existence of this bus for the first time ("there's a BUS that goes to LaGuardia..??") because of this announcement.
I also noticed that the line maps say "Union Square-14 Street" but the audio announcement says "14th Street Union Square". Ah well.
BTW, there was a NYC Transit guy with a clipboard writing down all the things that went wrong so the contractors knew what to look at. In addition, the contractors themselves sometimes walked through the cars to check out how the announcements were doing, and occasionally asked aloud to passengers in the car if they were hearing them well (answer: no), then proceeded to take sound measurements and so on. It was quite impressive.
Apparently the announcements are supposed to vary the volume based on the noise level; so if it's noisier in the train, the announcements should become louder to compensate. This was somewhat noticeable, but overall they were still too soft-- you had to be listening pretty closely to be able to hear them.
Another complaint was that it was difficult to tell that the train was a 6 express. The (too-soft) announcements said express, but that was it-- none of the signs indicated it was an express.
The diamond on the inside and the bulkhead indicates express. The strip map also blanks out the local stops.
(6) = Local
<6> = Express
Okay, but on the 6 express I was on, the inside signs said (6) and the bulkhead signs had 6 in a circle. And it didn't say express on the side destination signs, which is what everyone looks at-- nor is there room for a circle or diamond around the route number.
Yes it does, the side signs would say:
6 LEXINGTON AVE LOCAL
6 BRONX EXPRESS
6 to PELHAM BAY PK
OR
6 LEXINGTON AVE LOCAL
6 BRONX LOCAL
6 to PARKCHESTER-177
Which route number has no room for a circle or diamond? The side sign one (which is true) or the inside destination sign one (which is only half true)?
As for why the express train had (6) instead of <6> the only thing I could think of is an improper setting.
Is the bulkhead even capable of displaying diamonds?
Although the side signs didn't say express and the inside signs said (6), the automated announcements at each station correctly said it was a "6 express". I wonder how the audio announcements knew it was an express while the signs apparently didn't. Are they different systems?
Since the bulkhead signs can show a circle I assumed it can show a diamond too. I guess I can't be sure until I see one.
from my experience, it was able to do both diamond and circle but in bracket like shapes
Exterior bulkhead can show diamond, circle, and nothing around the number (watched it during testing, can show #s 0 and 8 as well as S). The interior one can show (6) or <6>. The interior sign can also show a yellow-orange color as well as green and red, I suspect on the #2 this will be used so the whole sign isn't one big red line.
Dang. You beat me to the post when it came to the Bleecker Blooper. Crazy, isn't?
Female Voice:This is Bleecker Street.
Male Voice:Transfer is available to the B, D, F, and Q trains.
[doors open]
Female Voice:This is a Bronx-bound 6 train. The next stop is Astor Place.
Male Voice:Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
I bet that that announcement would make a lot of people think that a transfer from the uptown side DOES exist, when it actually DOESN'T.
Hey, nobody's perfect.
Hope somebody mentions it to the officials checking out the train's operations right now, so they'll mark it down as something to change.
I was on a Queens bound F at Queens Plaza and saw a weird looking train on the local Queensbound track, looked like R46's or 68's couldn't tell too clearly since it was leaving the station. Anyway it was signed as an N, and the last car only had two doors and no windows. The number was something like EP010.
I wonder if this had to do with the smoke conditions at 60th street earlier. I was in the 60th street N/R station when firemen arrived trying to find the source of smoke coming out of the Queensbound tunnel. There was no service to Queens at the time and there was an "N" train of R32's sitting on the eastbound track. Firemen boarded the first car of the train and they went into the tunnel. After the train was gone, so was the smoke so it probably came from the front of the train.
They were R127 MOW Trains- probably dealing with either the smoke or just picking up garbage somewhere.
-Harry
That's an R127/134. It's based loosely on the R62.
-HAnk
>>>Anyway it was signed as an N, and the last car only had two doors and no windows. The number was something like EP010. <<<
Most definitely an R-127/134 but, it could not have been signed as an "N" as this train has no rollsigns just "NOT IN SERVICE" stenciled on the glass where the rollsign would be. It cannot be changed.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was one of the first NY&A conductors to ride the 142's from Pond to Linden when they were powered by a GP38. It is nice to hear everyone is having a good time riding those cars. When I was in them they had all the plastic wrap and window covers. They did ride smooth over the rougher portions of rail on the Bay Ridge branch. Many more 142's to come via NY&A and CP.
Today I was at the Whitehall Street Station coming off an R Train and I noticed that the connections between the center track and the outer tracks south of the station had been removed! Does anyone know why this was done, and if this is permanent or only temporary? I hope they restore the connection soon.
Just south of Whitehall there are two tunnel stubs to your (SB) right. Does anyone know about those? Mr. Forgotten NY...?
Stubs leads to Staten Island
The stubs there are "Derails." In the event that a train is speeding through everything and has no brakes, the home signal right before it will set diverge on the switch and the train will derail stopping it. Of course with some powerful force. That's what the concrete wall is probably for. The Derail at Whitehall is the only one in the system.
Kind of the railroad equivalent of a runaway truck ramp. There are numerous such ramps on I-70 while heading through the mountains west of Denver.
Steve - can you imagine taking a truck into the last one, eastbound, before Golden, the one that slopes downhill and is on the canyon side of the road? That would be quite a ride. (sorry so off topic).
Wouldn't the curve heading into the East River tunnel do the same thing?
--Mark
What would make a train stop faster? A train coming off the rails and sliding on nothing or a train lifting it's wheels and hitting it's side on the wall. What would be easier to pull out? What would cause less injury to then passengers? Let's get the Heypaul crash dummies out here! :-)
It doesn't "slide on nothing". The wheels hit the ties, and the ties bring the train to an abrupt stop. VS. goiing head-on into another train or wall, I'd say the derail is plus.
-Hank
Yeah. They need more of them... just not on an eleveted structure. DUH!
Yeah, let's put one in at Crescent St.! :o>
wayne
You're all either wrong, or looking at the wrong thing.
The tunnel stubs at Whitehall are not for ANYTHING. This has been gone over repeatedly. The Derail is on the center track at the south end of Whitehall ONLY, not on any of the others. It's there to hopefully prevent a train from rolling or moving from a stop on to either of the tunnel tracks. The idea is that the train will derail, and forward motion would come to a quick stop. Of course, a train at-speed hitting the derail will just derail and continue moving.
The center track was previously used for terminating local N trains from Astoria. It still is used for the occasional short-turn N or R from Queens, and is also used when they re-route the E to the Broadway line.
-Hank
M'kay, then why are they there then? A colossal survey error, caught at the last minute?
I don't know. I only know that they're not for connection to Staten Island.
-Hank
Wasn't there a plan in l929 or so to build a rail tunnel under the Narrows, from Fort Hamilton, to go to Staten Island. That was the reason the SIRT cars were built to run in BMT clearances, same size as the A-B's. In the middle and late l950's there were in fact 25 SIRT cars that the city bought and were run, I believe on the Culver Line, to alleviate a BMT car shortage. Riding them on the BMT was an experience.
Yes, that connection would have come in from Brooklyn, not Manhattan.
-Hank
Yes, indeed, the TA bought 30 surplus SIRT cars, five of which were trailers which never ran on BMT trackage. Since they bore such a strong resemblance to the BMT standards, it was thought that they would be able to m. u. with them. Much to everyone's surprise, the SIRT cars would not m. u. with BMT standards, and consequently ran only in solid trains.
There is a G.O. for each weekend in July that has no N/R service from Brooklyn to Manhattan so we can only ASSUME that the missing connections are due to this work and they will return at the end of the month.
The cut outs do not go to Staten Island (isn't that in the FAQ yet?)!!
The DERAIL, a metal shoe type thing over a running rail is on the center track at the south end but might be removed for construction. It has nothing to do with the cut outs in the wall. One of the only mainline derails in the system I believe.
Presumably the derail was removed since someone posted that revenue trains were arriving from brooklyn on the center track.
It's movable. There's a 'call-on' signal at the end of the platform, and it moves out of the way when necessary. Watched it do so 2 weekends ago.
-Hank
One has nothimng to do with the other. The derail is only active when the home signal at the south end of the station is RED over RED. At other times trains may move over it without fear of ending up on the roadbed.
There will be a chat in the #metrocard room tonight, 7/10/00, at 10:45 EST.
goto http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard
or if you are using an IRC client, goto the irc.cjb.net server, port 6667, and you must type in the #metrocard channel, it will nto be on the channel list.
Tevi,
Co-OP, CP.
I've heard that something unusual will be part of next month's NYCT sponsored charity run of the Redbirds.
Just wondering if anyone out there might have the answer. I know what it is but ain't telling! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
It would be nice to know what that is. I've already asked two persons if they knew anything about it and no one knew what I was talking about.
What could they possibly run? Let's see, the question would seem to be is the car a passenger unit or is it a work horse? Hmmm. Oh boy... Oh noooooo, not one of the Museum Steeple Cab Locomotives! It is painted red, what else could they run? Hey Mark W., are you listening? I can see it now, a powerful work horse pulling an entire consist with all of it's strength.
-Stef
Is it an R-21/22?
The inspection car. It's got a bigger front window than the RedBirds do, so less people have to arm wrestle for the privledge of looking out the front!
Is it the original "bluebird" 9306?
Dave, you get partial credit, as the answer is: The Inspection Car F-116!
The fact is that for this special trip, NYCT has gone ahead and repainted the inspection car in the Redbird color scheme! (Maybe it'll stay in that color?)
So it was a trick question -- but not impossible to guess.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, why didn't you say so?
-Stef
That would be my fault, as I suggested that he see if anyone else knew the answer. The follow up question is how did he find out ?
Mr t__:^)
07/11/2000
[The fact is that for this special trip, NYCT has gone ahead and repainted the inspection car in the Redbird color scheme!]
Is that the big surprise? I thought "Stone Cold" Steve Austin would ride on the platform and they would turn on those bank of headlights shining of his head blinding everybody on the DeKalb Ave. platform !
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW-This is as close to Fox red GM bus as you're gonna get!
I don't know if these 2 ran last week as I was on vacation, but I spotted these cars in E service this AM and operated 3904 to WTC later in the day. Both cabs of 3904 have R40/42 cab door lock assemblies. Half the side sign curtains are installed wrong: the smaller printing shows on the outside of the car and the larger printing shows inside the car, which means the sign message does not fit into the window! 3559 has sign boxes which look like they are from an R30 as they can be changed by hand (no sign changer required). Both cars have no speedometers. No sign that they were ever installed. I think speedometers were in the process of being installed around the time of the mishap when 3904 struck a fallen street vent grating. No MTA logo outside the cars, they have the old M Transit logo. The handbrake indication lamp (both cars) is on the momentary switch panel, ala R68. The cars have the old tan floors, so they'll have to go back to the main shop eventually. 3904 is the only mixed marriage 3900 series car in Queens, all other 3900's are mated correctly.
07/11/2000
Why the mismate? Any fire or body damage for being out so long?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think they were mismated when the came back from GOH. These 2 cars are Phase II's. I think 3558 is a Phase I assigned to Pitkin. 3905 may be assigned to CI, but I'm not sure about that.
07/12/2000
Bill from Maspeth,
Phase I....Phase II, please explain.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, they were already an Odd Couple when the accident occurred. There were a total of 24 pairs of R32 mismated during the GOH. The only one I can think of that was mismated previously was #3669(ex.3668)/#3628, both lost their mates to accidents in the 70s.
Phase I and II - their A/C units differ, they have different trim inside the door panel where it closes, the paint's slightly different and the LED lite for the door is different too. THE REAL SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES? Only a NYCT Tech can explain them all.
wayne
3918 is mated to 3601; 3919 is mated to 3470.
According to my R32 sheet (which may be slightly out of date):
3918/3601 are Coney Island (N's)
3470/3919 are Queens (E's)
BTW 3905 is mated to 3502 and are E's.
wayne
I have not seen 3502/3905 in Jamaica service. They may have been there last summer when the WillyB was closed and R32's got shifted temporarily. I thought I saw them on the N at Astoria Blvd. one day recently as I was exiting the Triboro Bridge.
Wayne, currently all six of these cars are assigned to Coney Island and are in service on the N line.
Ok, they're N's, which is the default for CI R32's (they wouldn't be Q's or the like unless there was a deviant assignment).
Thanks again,
Wayne
I have several Metrocards for trading. Is there a website devoted to
this?
07/11/2000
[I have several Metrocards for trading. Is there a website devoted to
this?]
Not that I'm aware of. But people like me, Thurston, Mark W. and others are also collectors. If the collectors come forward and leave their e-mail URL's, maybe you can contact them outside this board. The time is ripe for some sort of Metrocard or farecard club website.
Bill "Newkirk"
[The time is ripe for some sort of Metrocard or farecard club website]
I'll add a seconfd to that ... CardTalk ????
Those that want to TRADE just click on Bill's name, or mine or Doug's plus some others who frequent here.
I for one prefer to trade vs. buy and am now hopping to get a old blue from a SubTalker for some of my cards that I sent him.
My best trade was an original set, in the folder, for about 1/2 dozen MCs incl. a "Travel Cards" used by the private bus companies so not generally avaiable to most folks. As a "retailer" the TA some times uses internal "white" MC to seperate batches sold to my company. They make another good item for me to use in trades. I also buy internal light blues for my maint. staff, so when they use up the value (how can you check out a farebox if you don't use a card with money on it) I have another unique card to trade (they have to give it back if they want another).
BTW, by using internal cards I don't have to worry about them using it for personal reasons, because if they get caught I'll let them stay in jail & told them the same.
P.S. I for one love to get out-of-town cards. A dear friend in Atlanta & I frequently trade (he's not into collecting but a colleague there wanted the 20 cards of the Millennial Journeys and another the Emigrant set of 8), so if you'ld like some NYC cards in trade e-mail me ... how about a set of Mets cards ?
Mr t__:^)
Happened to catch "Good Day NY" this AM; they had the FUNNIEST group of NIMBYs Ive seen in awhile. These idiots are complaining about noise from the HBLR in Jersey City...[exactly my reaction]. The 'spokesperson' was this lady straight of the NIMBY profile: A tony 'I don't give a hoot about anybody else' atitude, complaining that the trolleys are too noisy at 15 MPH!!!! Also,of course complaining about a bell ringing, not to mention [God forbid] an occasional horn so somebody doesn't get run over...THEN this kid plays a boombox recording of a 'loud' train with its horn [he mustve placed the boombox right next to the train...]. But then, the GREATEST thing happens- a train pulls in and out of the station, a quick not very loud toot on its horn,, all with absolutely NO sound...I almost fell on the floor laughing my butt off....Poor Dick Oliver...must be a REAL slow newsday...
Also--- there MIGHT have been 15 people there, nine or ten of whom seemed to be there only to get themselves on teevee [lots mugging into the camera, etc etc
What time was this on? I was about to go to bed but may stay up to watch it.
Tom
Never mind! I misread your post and thought it was on Good Morning America. Good night.
Tom
If it were up to me, I'd hire the MTA to build a monster, nasty, rusted double-deck 4-track el down the ROW of the HBLR route, and run nothing but Redbirds on it. Just for good measure I'd make sure the Redbirds have plenty of nice flat spots on the wheels. I'd also have the el structure make a few random tight curves just to get that lovely squealing sound and screeching brakes. And the most beautiful part? To spare the NIMBY's any convenience of having mass transit, the trains wouldn't make any stops; they'd just run back and forth on the el 24 hours a day.
Oh well, it never hurts to dream a little. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
No, you need to run Broad St. Line trains. Those things can cause hearing damage. I'll make a reaording for you all.
Or you could restore the freight service that used to go through there on the self same ROW. That must have been really quiet. (Of course, you would have to replace the factories that the freight line used to serve.
Or R10's. Those things would make your ears bleed when running at top speed.
...and let's not forget pre-GOH R-38's
Hear Hear! And Non-A/C Slant R40s too!
BTW you should have heard the D-Types Sunday, they were in rare and combative voice. Earschplittenloudenboomer! It actually began to give me a headache (good thing I carry Advil) and I consider myself a seasoned subway rider.
wayne
Actually, your eardrums were probably just out of practice!
Yep, not since the R-6s plied the Queens Blvd IND and the R10s ran up and down CPW did I hear such a racket. They weren't THAT noisy back in 1998 when they ran on the BMT. Could the trackbeds have made a difference?
wayne
And from what I've read, the Triplexes were quiet in their heyday. Perhaps their soundproofing isn't up to snuff the way it once was. Or maybe it's been removed.
As for the R-10s, I never had to hold my ears while on a CPW express dash. OTOH, it was a different story when I rode on them for the last time in October of 1988. Oi Vey!! I thought I was in Chicago on a train of 6000s or 2600s in one of the subway stretches.
Nah, you need REAL LOUD TRAINS, like R-10s or D-Types or BMT Standards. The heavier the better.
wayne
You might as well include any piece of equipment with spur-cut bull and pinion gears. BTW, the BMT standards never seemed to be all that loud to me. In fact, they ran fairly quietly even in their advanced years.
Weight contributes to momentum. And those Triplexes could attain plenty of that. Take that incline on the Brighton line where it goes from embankment to open cut. Now throw in a four-unit express train thundering down the track. That's roughly 430 tons of steel. Woe to anything in its path!
Flat-wheeled R16's would work. I rode a set of R16's on the old Astoria R line thru the 60th St. tunnel in the summer of 1986. Storm doors latched open, fans buzzing, ears bleeding ...
Why were those old Broad Street Line cars so loud? I remember, as a kid, being amazed at the amount of noise they made - more than a freight train, or so it seems inside the subway. Were they on some sort of loud bea`ring?
I was refering to the current ones.
I can't speak for the Broad St. line itself, never having been on Philadelphia's subway. However, my impression is that tunnel construction has something to do with excessive noise. A good case in point would be both of Chicago's subway lines. Those tunnels are basically long, continuous individual concrete archways which act as giant echo chambers. The noise generated by a passing train has no place to go and reverberates through the tunnel, multiplying in the process.
Chicago's subways whistle. There's nothing like it in NYC.
SING, REDBIRD, SING
All together now:
Let's all sing like the (Red)birdies sing,
Sqeak, squeak-squeak, squeak-squeak.....
And let's sing like the D-Types did: SCKRRRRRRKCHHHHHHKKK! GRRRRRRRRTCCCTCHHHHH!!!! THKKKKKKRCHHHHHHHHH!! What a heavenly din!
wayne
As I was waiting to ride the R-142A today for the first time at 68th Street, a Redbird pulled up on the northbound side and made a horrible, shrill screeching noise. It made me happier that the R-142s are coming in to slaughter the Repulsive Rustbirds (well, not all of them, but certainly that one).
The R-142A is a nice car, my only complaint is that the volume of the announcements is too low, but that's adjustable and has nothing to do with the specific model. 7 people comfortably sit in a seat, which is good. It used to be 8, but that was too damn cramped.
I like the fact that the chime came back instead of that horrible R-110A buzzer.
A train screeching excessively as it comes to a stop on straight track may be suffering from mechanical problems. If you see that kind of thing happening again, note the unit number so it can be checked out.
How does the R142A handle curves. The upper #6 line is full of em. Good tests for wheel noise:
* West (south) of 3 Ave-138 st
* East (north) of Cypress (leaving)
* South of E 143 St
* Either side of H.P.
I bet they can "sing" just as well as the "Birdies" can! They ain't got no rubber wheels on 'em.
wayne
Lets take a trip up to Mott Avenue to take in a "Night at the (Redbird) Opera". The R29s (the 8700s on the #5) are the most "moosical" Redbirds.
wayne(NO TRACK SPRAYERS!)
07/11/2000
DAMN THOSE NIMBY BASTARDS !
It was bad enough that on day one of service we passed these placard carrying dummies, passengers gigling, now they are taking their "plight" to the airwaves? I walked that street two months ago after a SubTalk tour of the line and the LRV's that passed weren't making as much as a racket as the Nimby squad.
Face it, change is happening there and they are upset and can't deal with it. Whe're not talking routing smoke belching tractor trailers in front of their houses, or someones Camaro Z-28 with souped up exhaust for all the neighborhood to hear, we're talking about these modern , very quiet LRV's with a bell that goes ding ding. Is 15 MPH too fast! Then let's slow them down to 14 MPH!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
They should just sell their houses for the increased property values that have come to that neighborhood of Jersey City (not only because of the Light Rail) and move to someplace quieter.... :)
-Dave
You're not kidding. Property values along our Southwest Corridor have gone up, and developers were snapping up any available property in Downtown Littleton when construction of that line began.
Oh and speaking of funny, you would all get a kick out of what I'm wearing today: light greem jeans with a dark green golf shirt, complete with our company logo. If I were to throw in a white cap, I'd look just like an LA PCC all decked out in the LAMTA two-tone green paint scheme. If I were to pose in the entranceway to OEM's #3165, I'd blend right in. Come to think of it, my father's '53 Pontiac had that same two-tone green finish.
In Los Angeles, we have some of the dumbest NIMBY's imaginable.
....My favorite: There is a bus depot in Venice. At one time, it was a Red Car (interurban) terminal; in the 50's it became a bus maintenance yard. During the last 20 years, a number of expensive condos have been erected across from the terminal. Some of the people who bought those condos want the bus depot shut down because of the noise and smoke. That would be like moving to Jerome Avenue and demanding the el be torn down.
...or moving to Howard Beach and then going on TV and complaining about the airport noi...er, wait, people actually have moved to Howards Beach and then gone on TV to complain about their airport noise.
NIMBY's buy expensive (for the area) houses in Salem County, NJ, in Jan and Feb, then try to shut down the pig farms in May and June when the heat sends the stench in their direction.
Reminds me of the 1950s subdivision at the end of the Dutchess County Airport (Poughkeepsie, NY) main runway: Quiet Acres.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You mean (used to be) Quiet Acres.:-)
In name only, Steve, in name only. My father had a succession of small planes, all of which were based there; many a time when we took off we were barely clearing the rooftops, especially in the old Taylorcraft or the J-2 Cub [I don't remember that one, but I'm told it was a real slug] (the Aeronca Champ and the J-3 had much more powerful engines so we could climb faster).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Same thing in Denver since DIA opened. Oh, no, they promised, there won't be any noise. Hel-LO!! Sur-PRISE!! DUH!!
If they do show any NIMBYs demanding the bus terminal be torn down, they should cue up Steve Allen in his classic breakup as sportscaster Big Bill Allen. He couldn't get through his routine without laughing uncontrollably.
I caught that segment myself. I was also amused by their whining, it made me laugh shortly after I woke up - not an easy task! ;-)
Sometimes the pure idiocy of some people just amazes me. The segment was shot at the Essex Street station. That is where the line runs in the street. There are no crossing gates or bells there - they're only on the West Side Ave branch. The idiot with the recording captured grade crossing bells and even mentioned so. He had to have made his recording at one of those grade crossings nowhere near the Essex St. station. And as for the horns, aren't all trains, light and heavy rail, required to sound their horn as they approach grade crossings? And aren't LRV's/trolleys required to use their bells while running along a street?
These people are such crybabies. The trolleys are so quiet, you have to strain to hear them - buses make more noise than them! Have those people live next to an el for a while and then let them complain about streetcar traffic.
I just find it funny that there is so much whining about streetcar noise (however small amount there happens to be, vehicles and rail both being brand new). I was under the impression that they wanted light rail in the area, and that it wasn't forced on them by NJ Transit. If this is true (could someone confirm or correct me on this?) then I don't see any legitimate reason for complaining. Whether or not they are kicking up a fuss just to get onto TV is another matter though...
-Robert King
On the R-68s, what are the corner cabs for? I have never seen them used. What was the original purpose?
The corner cabs are used for operating the train from the #2 end. It has everything a Transverse cab has except for the door control panel on the opposite side (the side the cab doesn't cover.) Until recently, the R68s and R68As can be operated from these cabs. But, linking them into 4-car sets eliminated that. On the R68s, the brake "socket" where you put the brake is now covered by a piece of metal. This is also done to the Transverse cabs that are in the middle of the set. On the R68As the Master Controller and the brake "socket" is removed and covered by a piece of metal ion all the cabs that are in the middle of the set.
Did the MTA ever plan to use them?
They probably used them in yard moves or accidentally on a few revenue runs. I think a green stripe was put under the number plate of the cab end to the guy arranging the cars would know what end had the transverse cab, before that maybe half-length cabs were used for operation frequently (like on the 3).
Noo... R68/R68A is not A-Division. It's B Division. But, the R68s based from Concourse Yard have a green sticker at the bottom corner of the car on the transverse side. It's useless now that hey are linked but the still have them.
I know the divisions, I meant the arrangement R-62 singles currently on the 3 are similar to the arrangement of R-68(a)s on their lines before linking.
I rode on a few Q trains of R-68s with the half cab facing out on the first car. Great view through the railfan window.
I've operated R68's from the #2 cab (corner cab as you call it) before they were mated in 4 car units.
For the 4th of July ONLY--The Metro changed it's color routing system to accomodate the crowds---Brochures were distributed (I'll try to get mine scanned and posted on this site) and route maps were super-imposed on the current maps in the stations and trains...These changes were a "one-time" event that were very successful so don't be suprised to see it happen again with other major events. The changes were as follows:
Red Line:--No changes (Terminal stations alternated between Glenmont and Silver Spring
Green Line:--No changes (On a different note--They say the Branch Ave. segment may now open in January)
Yellow Line:--Huntington to Rosslyn--(This could've been eliminated for the holiday if not for the crowds going to Arlington Nat. Cem.)
Blue Line:--Franconia-Springfield to Mt. Vernon Sq.--UDC
Orange Line:--Vienna to BOTH New Carrollton & Addison Road (alternating between the two after Stadium-Armory and twice as many trains on the Vienna branch west of Rosslyn)
I'll be the first to say, it was rather odd to see the Blue and Green paired up at stations like Archives and to see just Orange going through stations like Eastern Market and such or see only two colors intersect at Metro Center (Red & Orange).
We talked about that here back around the 4th weekend. I even made a map to illustrate it.
dc 4th map
wait - wasn't this going to become permanent???
David---Actually, according to Metro, this was for the 4th of July--ONLY!! although I have seen them run some "off-the-wall" routes to accomodate functions at the MCI Center near Gallery Place. What strikes me as interesting is the routing from Franconia-Springfield to Mt. Vernon Square-----In the original plans for Metro, the Blue was to go from Addison Road to HUNTINGTON and the Yellow Line would start at Franconia and join the Green at L'enfent Plaza---The Blue and Yellow were reversed when the Huntington segment opened in the early 80's because to run the trains south of National Airport to Huntington as Yellow would've required less cars due to a shortage at the time..According to the local newspaper, this was to only be a temporary measure...in fact, right after Huntington opened, if you looked at the Yellow dot on the pylons, you could see a Blue one underneath that was being hidden by the Yellow. Temporary or not, the terminals were never reversed back to the original plan which now forces people boarding at Franconia to switch trains if they want a direct route downtown.
This was done to better disburse the crowd after the fireworks display. Otherwise the crowd will only know of one station on the mall and jam the platform.
They made the same change for 7/4/99. I assume they will do it every year on the Fouth of July only. The main reason, it seems to me is that many, many people get on the Vienna line (I-66), so they need twice the service of the other lines. Every other line has the same service frequency. The Blue to Mt. Vernon Sq. is an extra improvement because so many people come up I-95 (Franconia-Springfield), and not so many will come from US 1 (Huntington).
Interestingly last year, they made a big deal of the announcement, which led to a negative sounding article in the Washington Post. This year, it was just put in the paper almost as an afterthought, since really, the average person in Virginia will just take whatever comes and change at the Pentagon (Blue, Yellow) if necessary.
To the person who asked about special Blues on the Yellow tracks the rest of the year: They run 3 Blue specials from Mt. Vernon Sq. to Franc-Spring after events at the MCI Center which is at the Gallery Place Station.
And finally, not only was the original Yellow line to start from Franconia-Springfield (which in itself was going to be two separate branches: Franconia & Springfield), but it was to go all the way to Greenbelt along with the Green Line. Then other parts of Washington got more populated and they decided there would not be the demand in Hyattsville, Greenbelt, etc. to have double service.
[We talked about that here back around the 4th weekend. I even made a map to illustrate it. ]
How did you make that map? What application did you use? Do you have a template? I think it would be a lot of fun for us SubTalkers if we could build these realistic looking maps to illustrate the changes and enhancements we desire.
Hello, again. Does anyone know whether on 7/17/00, the "M" reverts to terminating at B'way-Myrtle during off peak hours? One poster described the 24/7 service to Broad St. as ending at Midnight,7/16, while the other poster states that weekend shuttles continue until 12:01 on 8/21. When will the trackwork actually be finished?
I usually go to a tower where my friend works at (since retired) and look at the pink color General Orders (G.O.). If there's no GO, there's no changes right away, maybe later.
Only a guess: currently the J is express Manhattan bound 24/7 from Bway/Myrtle to Marcy. Possibly on 7/17 Jamaica bound J will go express 24/7 from Marcy to Bway/Myrtle. Anyway, be patient! We'll find out soon enough! The problem with this whole cyber thing is that people want to know what is going to happen tomorrow yesterday!
I've decided to begin a new thread here, as the original topic was about what transplanted ex-New Yorkers miss about home, and I went off on a tangent into a discussion of possible future rail transit in Columbus, Ohio. (The White Castle fast food chain is based in Columbus, and "Virginia Division, BMT" mentioned he missed "fresh White Castles.")
[Columbus, Ohio, to be exact. The Fast Food Capital of the World. Also HQ'd there are Wendys (the 1st one was on Broad Street) and Bob Evans Restaurants. And no rail transit to speak of. Even a beautiful Union Station was torn down in the 70s or early 80s after Amtrak discontinued the National Ltd. from New York to St. Louis (an old PRR route) ... Last Railway Age Passenger Rail Planning Guide mentions light rail proposal. I'll believe it when I see it] - Keystone Pete
[Maybe there is some hope. I've never been there, but ISTR reading that Columbus has a fairly large concentration of jobs downtown (some of them, probably, at Wendy's and WC), which I suppose could be enough to support light rail. ] - Peter Rosa
True, there are a lot of jobs in downtown Columbus, but they are mostly state government jobs and banking. Huntington Bank has 2 office towers, and Banc One used to be based there till it merged w/ a Chicago bank, and there's a few more other banks. Borden, the food company, also has offices there.
Wendy's HQs are actually NOT downtown, unfortunately, but in Dublin, OH, on the outskirts of Columbus, where golf's Memorial Tournament is played every May. White Castle's HQ's are in Columbus proper, but not downtown. (Columbus is unlike most northeastern cities in that in Ohio, laws do not severely limit annexation of surrounding municipalities by their larger neighbors. Thus, the city is HUGE, area-wise, and can boast being the largest city in Ohio, even though there are more people in both Cincinnati's and Cleveland's metro areas.)
But getting back to transit:
Like Los Angeles, many commercial areas in Columbus are indeed not downtown. On the other hand, downtown jobs are plentiful and would help support light rail, as would the fact that the Ohio State University is located just north of town. If I were COTA, (Central Ohio Transit Authority), I would start at those 2 points. Then I'd decide which outlying neighborhood or suburb would be next. Columbus is too spread-out for LR to ever serve the bulk of the city. Also, I imagine the only way LR will get off the ground there is if its purpose is to alleviate suburban traffic congestion. But serving High Street, from German Village to OSU, would be a good start.
Interesting note: Columbus played a significant part in the infancy of the demise of rail-transit. It was there that TAT, or Transcontinental Air Transport, began. When air travel was brand new, you would take a PRR train from NY to the Columbus Airport. There you would board a small plane and fly to New Mexico and catch a Santa Fe RR train to California. The opposite service was also provided. TAT evolved into TWA (not the piddly TWA we have now, but the former airline behemoth) and the rest is history.
Or is it? Now we have another push to marry rail and air transit, but in a slightly different form. Note the Airtrain to JFK being constructed, and the NJ Transit's Newark Airport Rail Station. Even Harrisburg, PA, will have a station at its airport (on the 'Keystone Line') in the near future. (Sorry for the digression, but Keystone Pete is obligated to plug Pennsylvania rail transit whenever possible :-)!)
[True, there are a lot of jobs in downtown Columbus, but they are mostly state government jobs and banking. Huntington Bank has 2 office towers, and Banc One used to be based there till it merged w/ a Chicago bank, and there's a few more other banks. Borden, the food company, also has offices there ... On the other hand, downtown jobs are plentiful and would help support light rail, as would the fact that the Ohio State University is located just north of town. If I were COTA, (Central Ohio Transit Authority), I would start at those 2 points. Then I'd decide which outlying neighborhood or suburb would be next. Columbus is too spread-out for LR to ever serve the bulk of the city. Also, I imagine the only way LR will get off the ground there is if its purpose is to alleviate suburban traffic congestion. But serving High Street, from German Village to OSU, would be a good start.]
The fact that many of the downtown jobs are in state government should make light rail's ridership higher than otherwise would be the case. It's probably easier to get government employees to use transit.
Govt people can use the Public Transportation Benefit Program which in turn can be used to support mass transit.
At least there's hope for rail service for Columbus and Cincinnati. I've lived in Dayton for 3 years and the three best things about living here are the cost of living, my 15 minute commute, and that the Chicago "L" is only a 4 1/2 to 5 hour drive.
I have a friend that lives in Columbus, He misses the Italian Deli's
When he comes here he allways stops at Tenuta's before going back to Columbus.
Let us for a minute assume that back in the 50's the big auto makers did the same thing to NYC that they did to LA and got the city government to completely scrap the subways. The tunnles and old Subway ROW's would be turned into Busways, Snobways for VIP motorists or low income housing for the homeless. LIAR, commuter rail, PATH, west side freight line and SIRT would remain uneffected. Would NYC be worth living in? Would traffic be worse than LA? Would motorists be stuck in gridlock for weeks at a time, form tribes and rove around the city looking for food?
[Would motorists be stuck in gridlock for weeks at a time, form tribes and rove around the city looking for food?]
That's basically the way things are right now :-)
do you know that some author wrote a short story about an appoclyptic gridlock where people were permintly stuck and had to form a new society. I can't remember the title, but i heard about it on NPR.
I think I know the one you mean. If the story I'm thinking of is the one you're thinking of, then I read it in a 1960s collection of science fiction stories. I can't remember the title, but I know that it is not "The Roads Must Roll", that's for sure.
-Robert King
New York could not exist without the subway, therefore the subways could not be removed. The size of the Manhattan Central Business district would have to shrink from 2 million employed to 500,000 employed, about the size of Greater Downtwon Chicago.
Replacing trolleys with buses was one thing, replacing subways with nothing is another. No way enough buses could run down those tracks, even if they had the clearance.
A more interesting question is what would have happened if the subways had never been built? Manhattan's size and concentration are a unique resource, and have saved NYC from decline. Without the subways, NYC might be in the same situation as other older cities: not good.
Alternately, Manhattan would have been OK, like Boston or San Francisco, but Brooklyn would have ended up like Camden or East St Louis.
07/11/2000
What would NYC be like w/o subways ?
Just review old films what things were like during the transit strikes.
Bill "Newkirk"
You had to mention Camden, didn't you! Why does everyone pick on NJ?
In all seriousness, Camden provides welcome comic relief for those of us who don't live there.
(You had to mention Camden, didn't you! Why does everyone pick on NJ? In all seriousness, Camden provides welcome comic relief for those of us who don't live there.)
It ain't funny. There is urban decline, and there is urban decline. Even Detroit has attracted SOMETHING over the years (the Renaisannce Center, a new baseball stadium), if only due to massive public subsidies. Camden, East St. Louis etc. are the bottom. Since they aren't the central city, they have all the problem of one without the few remaining legacies (theater, museum, university, government center, headquarters of local utility) the cities typically retain.
Which gets back to our question. Without the subway, Manhattan wouldn't be Manhattan, it would be Phildelphia. And in than case, Brooklyn would be like Camden.
[It ain't funny. There is urban decline, and there is urban decline. Even Detroit has attracted SOMETHING over the years (the Renaisannce Center, a new baseball stadium), if only due to massive public subsidies. Camden, East St. Louis etc. are the bottom. Since they aren't the central city, they have all the problem of one without the few remaining legacies (theater, museum, university, government center, headquarters of local utility) the cities typically retain.]
Yet Camden still has a few city-like assets: the state aquarium*, a Rutgers campus, PATCO service, and Campbell Soup's headquarters. Apparently those haven't been enough to stem its decline. Which doesn't mean that all hope should be abandoned, of course; Jersey City and to a lesser extent Newark seem to be recovering from decades of deterioration.
* = ISTR that ads for the aquarium don't quite say that it's located in Camden.
They are also getting a minour league baseball stadium and an arial tramway. They have a big entertainment centre (the E centre), a prison, a ferry and a battleship. Not to mention that they are turning the old RCa plant into luxury homes. All in all i am against all this renual in Camden. the Port Auth is the one sheling out the big bucks and because of it they have raised tolls and fares. Yesterday while comming home on PATCO me and at least 2 other people (one being the driver) agreed that all the projects were a waste of $$. I just wanted to see the city turn into a lawless lasteland. It better to be the best at being the worst than to just be mediocore. I felt real pride when camden was declared the 2nd most dangerous city in America. South jersey made national headlines and bad publicity was better than no publicity. When i met ppl from other places i could start a conversation by talking about what a bad place Camden was. I say ditch the devolopment and assign the battleship to the street crimes unit incase things get really bad.
Cream soda is everywhere,but how does one go about making a chocolate eggcream ????? does anyone remember or has it been that long ago you had one ?
I thought it was milk, chocolate syrup and carbonated water, but I don't know what portion of each.
I could dig thru my "Back in the Bronx' magazines to find exactly. But the GENUINE syrup [chocolate] for an egg cream was Fox's U-bet which I guess is history like me, if so you have to use some imitation! Believe syrup first, then milk, then the seltzer water and there was an art to running the seltzer over a spoon to give just the right carbonation. Believe it or not I never had one; I loved cherry cokes.(believe www.backinthebronx.com) oh yes you do have to stir the ingredients when they're all in the cup.
Um, Fox's U-Bet is still very much around.
So I guess it is history like you, since you're still with us!
It is no coincidence that the subway was planned about the same time all the boroughs formed Greater New York. Politicians were actually more public service minded in those days, despite all the graft, they knew that the success of the New York 'experiment' required infrastructure to support it-hence the building of the subway, the building of the the East River bridges, etc etc. So to say : 'What would New York be like if the subway was never built?', really is a moot question actually. {Also actually, Tamany Hall wasn't ALL corruption and greed, it produced some pretty good public servants in its time, Al Smith being one of the better examples.....)
Two words come to mind: utter chaos.
One thing's for sure: NYC wouldn't be anything like it is today without the subway.
The subway is the city's lifeblood. Without it, Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx could hardly have grown past the degree of Staten Island.
There would probably be more and better highways. There might even be highways leading accross the hearts of Brooklyn and Manhattan. However I'm quite sure that the automobile traffic would be far worse, not better.
Come on and get real. New York without the subway wouldn't be New York. I don't hear of any other city websites harking up their subway system the way we do. That's because the subway is synonomous with New York. Guess what's the first thing I'm doing when I get to New York on August 16? You bet! Ride the subway to Coney Island. What subway train? Don't be stupid.
The #4???
Hey Dave: Once upon a time in my youth the Sea Beach carried the #4. I have no affinity for the new #4 because I consider it an interloper and, besides, it goes to Yankee Stadium. You should know, if you read these posts of mine, what I think of, and have always thought of those rotten &%$#@*&%$.
That's OK; the Dodgers deserted a town where than fans loved them probably more than any team in baseball history, whether they won or lost.
>>> fans loved them probably more than any team in baseball history, whether they won or lost. <<<
Ed;
Dodger fans wanted and had winners (at least until the met the Yankees in October), the honors for loyalty in adversity must go to the Cub fans.
Tom
The old Dodger Fans were just as loyal, They just had more winners then the Cus or the Red Sox
That's the way Brighton Beach Bob. You hit it squarely on the head. There were no fans like the Brooklyn fans. We were a breed apart, and anyone who remembers us can vouch for us. Cub fans are minor league compared to what we were.
No argument from me there. I never took to the LADodgers, even though I live out here. I was a fanatical Brooklyn Dodgers fan, even to the point of insanity. Even when I was seven years old, if they lost a game I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, and didn't want to leave the house. I was a real case.
On my way to find the R142's on the 6 line yesterday, I decided to take the LIRR into 34th from around my house at the Rosedale station. Upon arriving at Jamaica, I saw a pair of Bilevels that were a express to LIC, without stopping at hunters point Avenue. My Train was on Track one, while it was on Track 5. I do belive it was the 5:35 from Montauk, because the 5:35 is supposed to arrive at LIC at 8:36 and I was at Jamaica at 8:10. I assumed it was going to take the Main line to Manhattan like most Hunters point Trains usually do. However, it didn't follow us. I thought it would pass us because we were a local stopping at kew Gardens, Forest hills, Woodside and New york. However, DE30 number 415 was the tailing motor while a push-pull bi-level number 5002 was leading. Anyway, it disappeared after Jamaica and I saw it at the LIC Station b4 The Train I was on entered the Tunnel leading to Penn station. Does this mean he used those Tracks that everybody says no one uses anymore? For example, Richmond hill, middle village, all those places it travels thru to get to LIC? If that is the case, I have never ridden on that line. so can anyone tell me which Train leaving LIC skips hunters point avenue and just goes a different way to Jamaica like this Train did?
Yes. For trains going directly from Jamaica to Long Island City, there is a trackway (I believe it's only a single track) running through Richmond Hill, Gelndale, Middle Village, and Maspeth. It has a beautiful view of Forrest Park, by the way.
There used to be intermediate stations along this way: Richmond Hill (with a connection to the J train), Glendale, Haberman, Fresh Pond, and Penny Bridge. They were even more spartan than the LIC stop, without so much as station signs or even much in the way of platforms. They were all abandonned when the double-decker trains were introduced, and the MTA/LIRR didn't want to spend the money to upgrade these stations with the raised platforms necessary for the new trains.
Andrew
[There used to be intermediate stations along this way: Richmond Hill (with a connection to the J train), Glendale, Haberman, Fresh Pond, and Penny Bridge. They were even more spartan than the LIC stop, without so much as station signs or even much in the way of platforms. They were all abandonned when the double-decker trains were introduced, and the MTA/LIRR didn't want to spend the money to upgrade these stations with the raised platforms necessary for the new
trains]
Richmond Hill actually had a high-level platform, but it was abandoned along with the rest of the line stations in preparation for the double-deckers. Ridership at all of the line stations had been in the single digits for many years.
IIRC, it is a two track line. Also, while the other stations, such as they were, have been erased from the landscape, the Richmond Hill Station is closed but not demolished.
What annoys me to no ends is that this line is perfectly suited for conversion to subway usage, and it would provide direct service to areas like Glendale and Maspeth, which have NO subway service as of today. !@#$%& NIMBY's ...
That LIRR-Subway conversion idea occurred to me too. Perhaps such a line could cut off from the Flushing IRT. Call it the new # 8.
I don't believe the 42nd St. line could handle the additional capacity, and the Flushing line cannot be cut to compensate.
The logical connection for the Montaulk LIRR subway route would be to 63rd. St, which would put it's capacity to better use than the present connection to the QB IND local tracks.
[What annoys me to no ends is that this line is perfectly suited for conversion to subway usage, and it would provide direct service to areas like Glendale and Maspeth, which have NO subway service as of today. !@#$%& NIMBY's ...]
It could be that the time is ripe to try again. It's been something like 20 to 25 years since neighborhood opposition in Glendale and elsewhere scuttled the subway conversion plan. My guess (I'm not that familiar with the areas) is that demographic changes in the intervening years have made these 'hoods more amenable to subway service. In addition, the subway today is in much better shape than in 1975 or 1980, and therefore might not be seen as such a threat to neighborhood stability.
Interference with NY&A freight activity would be an issue, but I'm sure something could be worked out given some effort.
It would also be expensive, with the need for electrical conversion and station construction. However, I believe it's worth it.
[For trains going directly from Jamaica to Long Island City, there is a trackway (I believe it's only a single track)]
It is a double track. And I would like to add that the last time I was at LIC I saw seven trainsets with DE30ACs. Its a cool station for railfans.
-Daniel
I believe the 8:11 AM from Jamaica to LIC and the 4:54 PM from LIC to Jamaica are the only passenger trains that now use the Montauk Branch between those two stations. I think they are both Oyster Bay trains.
Due to track work from July 17 to about August 11, all HP trains are being diverted to LIC. They will be taking the Lower Montauk tracks. So if you've always wanted to take this route, now will be the easiest time.
-- Kirk
Yes!! Off peak service on the lower Montauk!!
Nope, I don't think there are any off-peak Hunterspoint Avenue trains except maybe during the transition time.
Yes there is, the 3:24 LIC (3:40 HP) Port Jeff train.
The Cannonball.
The 1:55 Fridays only to Montauk.
Queens Newsday ran an article about the new trains beginning to replace the redbirds on IRT lines. It appears that the 7 train is getting left behind for now:
"The trains...will replace most of the 40 year old Redbirds, except for those that run on the No. 7 line between Times Square and the Main Street staion in Flushing.
"The transit agency has an option to order another 320 cars under its existing contracts with the two companies....If it excercises that option by the end of the year, virtually all of the redbird cars could be replaced."
So if this is true, the forty year old redbirds on the Flushing IRT could maybe, maybe start actually being replaced in what? Three, Four years?
This is disapointing if it is so.
Andrew
The article is right. The R142s/R142As can replace all the Redbirds. But, since the Flushing Line is of such importance, the trains on it must never fail in service because there is no alternative to the 7 Line. So, the TA has decided to take all the R62As from the 6 Line (which is getting all new cars) and put them on the 7 Line. The 3 Line will give some to the 7 Line so the 7 can have 11-car trains. The 3 Line will get some of the ones from the 6 Line to make up for the ones it gives to the 7.
OK. But will they ever start using R142s/R142A's on the 7 line? I think we Queens IRT riders deserve new trains as much as anyone ;)
Andrew
Yes. The 7 will get them eventually. Once the cars have proven themselves to be reliable and there are cars to replace them on the Mainlines. Also, the R62As on the line have to be falling apart.
I agree, the 7 line definately deserves some of the new trains since it is one of the most heavily used. But somebody at the TA is making excuses for some reason or other not to give the 7 any of the new cars.
>>> the 7 line definately deserves some of the new trains since it is one of the most heavily used. But somebody at the TA is making excuses for some reason or other not to give the 7 any of the new cars. <<<
John;
A nice thought, but not so realistic. Because the #7 line is so isolated from the rest of the system, with its own maintenance yard, and one interconnection at Queensborough Plaza, it does not make business sense to feed in a few new trains with their entirely different maintenance needs onto this line. In fact, it makes economic sense to concentrate all of the new cars in one maintenance facility during the transition period, and concentrate all of the older rolling stock in another place as it is replaced on other lines. This means it will be some time until the new cars get to Flushing. One consolation is that by the time they get to the #7 the bugs should have been worked out.
Historically the #7 got the newest cars for each of the World's Fairs. Give Manhattan a break for a change.
Tom
There's more to it than that. The first R units for the IRT were assigned to the 7 because their doors would not line up with the gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry.
Gap fillers at Brooklyn Bridge?!
07/13/2000
[Gap fillers at Brooklyn Bridge?!]
Yes David, Before Worth St. was closed and Brooklyn Bridge was lenghtened north, there were gap fillers on the very southern part of the platforms now closed to the public. The gap fillers are still there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well the fact that the Corona inspection barn is old and not equipped to handle the roof-mounted A/C modules is a valid reason why the R142s can not be assigned to the 7 right now. Since the 7 runs with 11-car trains (except during the summer), the R62s are a natural for the Flushing line. The R62/62As should have been assigned to the 7 at least five years ago after all the major rehabilitation was completed. Well it's about time they're putting the 62As on the 7, several years a late, but better late than never.
07/11/2000
[So, the TA has decided to take all the R62As from the 6 Line (which is getting all new cars) and put them on the 7 Line.]
If and when this happens, what color stickers will be under the number boards? Purple?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. Westchester's stickers are Yellow. Corona's are purple. Livonia/148 Street's are Blue. The R62As haeding over to the 7 Line would be considered transfering cars to yards.
They should paint the new cars for the #7 Blue and Orange in honor of the Mets. That would be poetic justice. Then they could paint the #4 train that dingy, barfy color that passes for navy blue in "honor?" of the Yankees.
You Mean Red White and Blue, which are officially the Yankee Colors, Dummy. Look at the Logo, not the NY. The Yanks are class The Pin Stripe Uniforms since God Knows When, the Mets keep changing their Uniforms like underwear. Black, Blue, Orange this year.
I know the Yankee logo. It actually looks nice, though it gags me to say it. But if they like red, then why don;t they show it. The don't anywhere on either of their unis. Their jackets have a little. What's the matter? Afraid of being called Reds?
The Reds are in Cinncy
I don't mean those kind of Reds---comrade Bob.
I like it better when you two have a Brighton/Sea Beach debate.:-)
Personally, I don't care for what the Mets have done to their uniforms, color-wise, either. The only Mets cap I will ever wear is one that's royal blue with a plain orange NY.
Isn't there a baseball forum or board anywhere?? Every thread I click onto lately is about baseball!! If you have to talk sports, talk about a good sport, like thoroughbred racing. I took my little one to beautiful Belmont Park today and it was much better than any baseball, football, basketball, hockey game!!!
Thoroughbred Racing is only a sport if you're a horse.
07/13/2000
DON'T BET ON IT !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Every thread I click onto lately is about baseball!! <<<
I thought it was me. Glad to see someone else is just as PO'd about it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Never seen any red on the New York Yankees. You must be referring to American Yanquis. Anyway, the NYYs really have no daring and no imagination. Same dull uniforms all the time, and I mean dull. One would think they would at least reverse the pin-stripe colors for some home games.
There's red on the Yankee "emblem"; i.e., the patch worn on warmup jacket sleeves. (The emblem is of an "Uncle Sam" stovepipe tophat with a bat forming part of the "k" on the script of "Yankees".
Also..one man's (or woman's) "dullness" is another person's classiness. The Yankee uniform has remained amazingly consistent through much of the 20th Century and is a part of Yankee tradition, which includes 25 World Series wins. (The Mets have won......let's see....two?)
The Met uniforms have gotten increasingly tacky over the years. I don't know which is worse: the current crop of pinstripe, placket stripe, blue, black, or whatever bad-acid-induced colors they're wearing lately, or those horrendous uniforms, circa 1986, with the blue and orange stripes running down the shoulders and pants legs.
I think I just started a bigger war than redbirds vs R-142's...
Oi gevalt - don't remind me of those orange and blue racing stripes. I wish the R-10s had kept their racing stripes longer than the 2-3 years they did. Just to keep this on topic.
That's a good one Fred!
>>This is disapointing if it is so.
Want a kleenex?
Redbird Car Club.
Nah, I think you might want to hang on to your Kleenexes. You'll need as many of them as you can get. Apparently Mister K is sick of having the same cars on his line for almost 40 years and probably hates those horrible single R33s with no A/C like I do. And I for one don't blame him. He might even remember the days when they had all that horrible graffitti like I do. Maybe you weren't around for that. I also remember when they had no A/C and all the windows were open AND THEY WERE STILL BRUTALLY HOT! Every Redbird consist I've ridden in the summer on the 2 has AT LEAST one car with the A/C not working and I'm talking about right now, this year.
See, your line (according to your handle) is the 1 line which is served exclusively by R62As and will continue to be even after R62As go to the 7 line. So you can ride the old Birds all day but you still can transfer at 96th St to go home on your nice modern R62As. We who ride the 2, 5 and 7 don't get that option. We have no choice but the rusty old cars. Mister K has a right to complain. Let's see how you feel about the old Redbirds when you don't have any other choice.
Actually, he's stuck with the same R-62as until retirement, and once the redbirds are gone he'll wish the 142s could run on his line (after riding the same cars for years), but they never will.
For what it's worth, I haven't really wasted much kleenex on the matter. Since I live in Oakland Gardens, It really makes more sense for me to take the F. (Does anyone else think those trains they use of the F, G and some A,E,and R lines are ugly?) I take the 7 sometimes for a much more interesting route, with the nice old IRT mosaics at Vernon-Jackson, Hunterspoint, and Main St (newly restored!) and for the views of the Manhattan skyline, the Worlds Fair Globe, Shea Stadium, and Northwest Queens in general. It's a hell of a lot more interesting that the F from 179th to 14th St.
And as I'm only 29, I'm not retiring so soon. I'm sure I'll still be riding when the new trains make their Flushing debut.
I also was not riding when they had the grafitti on the 7 (when I started riding, they were just cleaning up the last of the trains on the L line, and the J was opening up with the new trains and the Jamaica Center extension.) However my dad used to ride the 7 when I was a baby living in Auburndlae. He says that the IRT's (especially the 7, no doubt) were the last to get air conditioning.
If the redbirds weren't so old, they wouldn't be so bad. They are probably the best looking trains currently working on the subway system.
If they restored the old World's Fair powder blue-and-white color scheme, they would be the best looking cars in the fleet, even if they weren't the best running or air conditioned.
At least better than those R40 slants... when I first saw those slants on the (B) I thought they looked like scary giant doorstops.
In order to have new high tech trains, you gotta have a new high tech barn to take care of the cars. Brand new E.180th St, has one with overhead cranes needed to change the air conditioning units if needed on the R142. Westchester Yard (#6 line) is only a few years old. Easily re-tooled for new high tech cars. On the other hand, Corona Barn is OLD. ANCIENT. They need a new barn before they can think about getting high tech cars. Plans are in the works but it will take 4 or 5 years even if they start tomorrow. Plans are in the works right now. The new barn will be in the rear of the current yard, but it is swampy back there and a loop track will be built. Just because they are new doesn't mean they'll be better. Be happy with R62A's!
In my opinion while 7 gets frequent service they have the worst trains. I guess TA feels the low income people that ride that line don't desrve new cars.
While the 1,2,3,4,5,6 serve poor areas too, percentage-wise the number 7 goes through the biggest percentage of poor areas.
Back in 1984, when the R-62s arrive, the No. 7 train had the newest overall fleet on the IRT, and the R-62s themselves had problems going through the Steinway tunnels, so the new cars ended up on the mainline.
The new R-142s presumably can make in through the tunnel without tearing part of their sides off, but the cars require the space to lift the air-conditioning units out through the roofs for maintenance. The new 180th Street yard building and the Westchester Ave. yard are equipped for that, but you can't do it at Corona right now (or at Coney Island, AFAIK). So until the Corona facility is modified, the best they can do on the No. 7 is move over some of the R-62s from the 6 and 3 lines, which they will probably do once enough of the Kawasaki 142s are in place on the No. 6 line.
I talked to a 7 train TO recently and when asked about the R142s, he laughed out loud and said he dosen't expect them to be on for at least five years. I agree, I mean the TA caters as much to tourists as anything else in the city and most tourists don't take the Flushing line. All new equipment would be replaced on popular IRT lines in the city before any would be sent tot Queens. Besides, construction at the Kawasaki and Bobardier plants are lagging and we probably won't see a new R142 trainset until late October (If we're lucky).
-Daniel
I just did a little searching through my early posts from more than 2 years ago. I've learned a great deal through posting here. On some of these early posts I'm going off like an ignoramous. But that is not my point.
I'm replying because of a really cool discovery I just made: My first ever post was on July 11, 2000. Why is that significant? Exactly two years later, my daughter was born!
It's gotta mean something!
:-) Andrew
It's a coincidence, man.
Different. First of all Brooklyn would have still been an independent city and the Queens County border would still extend all the way out to Suffolk (there would have been no Nassau County). The great rapid transit expansion (subways) would not have been possible since the cost of putting a system this large completely underground would have been prohibitive. The development of Upper Manhattan, the Bronx, and most of Queens would have been pushed back decades since even an electrified streetcar system would have been far too inadequate to move New York's exploding population. What rapid transit that would have developed would probably have been somewhere along the lines of Boss Tweed's Viaduct Railroad (which fortunately never came to pass). Suffice to say, New York would probably have evolved into a bloated version of Baltimore; a highly industrialized center of commerce but lacking an adequate rapid transit system, a poor cousin to its neighbor (Brooklyn) across the river.
The subway system also wouldn't be nearly as impressive. We must remember that the subways, especially in Brooklyn, use a lot of the right-of-way of the old Els. The IND basically would end at Church Avenue in Brooklyn, and West 4th in Manhattan. It's just a shame that most of the Els of the Eastern Division of the BMT were torn down. I consider that a mortal sin right up there with murder.
I blame Robert Moses for that, the Walter O'Malley of Rapid Transit. His car crazy building sprees denied the LIE a subway line (i.e. the Dan Ryan & Eisenhower Expressways in Chicago), and converted Brooklyn's Third Avenue El into part of the BQE. When I first read that acclaimed biography of his, "The Power Broker" back in 1980, I was astonished to find that at that time he was still alive. It boggled my young imagination that someone so evil could live so long. Now I don't mean to speak ill of the dead but it goes without saying that his many roads & bridges notwithstanding, Robert Moses was a curse that New Yorkers could well have done without.
Eric Dale Smith
Robert Moses was merely a product of his generation. Had Rapid Transit been en vogue at the time, then another person would have been just as ruthless in it's construction and would be decried for an overemphasis on transit building.
Any person who believes that we can live without roads is GRAVELY mistaken. Robert Moses' major character flaw was his unwillingness to compromise, his evilness comes not from the perception of the NIMBY swine in the valley of the Cross-Bronx Expressway, but from the fact that he didn't provide any concessions to satisfy the other side. This ruthlessness blocked useful roads like the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge, the Richmond Parkway Extension and the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway. And most of all, modern NIMBY and BANANA obstructionism is a direct product of the multitudes of people screwed by Moses for the greater good.
The Third Avenue El in Brooklyn was obsolete and redundant, the Gowanus Expressway provides a vital link between Staten Island, New Jersey and points south and southwest to Long Island.
Robert Moses was a curse that New Yorkers could well have done without.
And so is economic growth.
No, the IND would build the subway as far as Coney Island and the 6th and 8th Avenue lines would be similar.
With no lines that it could practically conceive to replace, it would be forced to blaze new territory. Either the els blazed new territory, or they replaced surface railroads.
Hmmm. Let's see. Without the El...
It's the 1950's. The population of New York continues to grow. Developers, seeing green, and lots of sturdy bedrock, decide places like Yorkville and Carnegie Hill are ideal places for residential high-rise development. If only they could increase the property value even more along a very important artery, which is currently burdened by a pesky steel elevated train structure.
Riding the pervading public sentiment for "progress," and some well-placed graft, they succeed. The highrises spring up like weeds for 4 decades and still grow today. The neighborhood disappears. Try as they might, old-time residents search high and low for a place to get a decent bratwurst...
But don't worry. Who needs bratwurst? Starbucks is coming! Who else will be able to jump-start the yuppie crowd in the morning? Mitch needs his Tripple half-caf latte. After all, he's gotta be wide awake for the upcoming battle -- the battle to fight his way downtown. His weekly class in contortionism paying off, he manages to carve out some space amid his suffering bretheren. Today they're lucky. There's room to hold up the Times for a decent read on the way to the rat-race...
What's this? An article on the Second Avenue Subway?!! What's this? There used to be an el train on Third Avenue? All the way from the Bronx to downtown?!! Well, what the hell happened to it? Property values? Mitch thinks to himself, "How could my apartment be any *more* expensive?!!!" Mitch pays over 1/2 his income in rent each month, only to grapple his way to work every morning.
Finally, he's there. Downtown. The promised land. His boss smiles, "Good morning. How was your commute in?"
"Are you kidding? I feel like a sardine."
"You know, there are some bigger apartments in the Bronx. You might try moving there."
"Yeah, I used to live along 3rd Avenue, but I found it hard cause there are no trains around where I lived."
"There used to be, you know. Before me and the wife moved to Scarsdale."
"Yeah, I know, I was reading about it in the Times. I can't wait to get home to my 12x12 studio tonight for some breathing room! I think I might walk."
Did you know it's bad form to answer your own questions?
Fortunately, the answer has as much validity as the geocentric theory. It's simple, it seems to make sense, but it's wrong and eventually the whole world realizes that.
Before implying that it was the elevated that consolidated New York City, get your facts straight. No rapid transit existed in Queens before the advent of the Dual Contracts, which was at least 15 years after the very day of consolidation. You are NOT correct in assuming that Nassau County exists only for the sake of avoiding New York City politics. Since at least the 1820s (yes, 1820s!), the towns of Hempstead, North Hempstead and Oyster Bay wished to be separated from Newtown, Flushing and Jamaica. Consolidation was only the straw that broke the camel's back.
The elevated train acted to unify Brooklyn and Queens as much as did the plight of an anonymous nomadic familiy wandering the Gobi Desert.
Until 1896, one year after the successful nonbinding referendum on consolidation, All elevated trains in Brooklyn terminated at the Fulton Ferry. Manhattan trains didn't even connect. The Brooklyn Bridge railway through-routing occured because of the anticipation of consolidation, not vice-versa.
In addition, no section of the elevated system was used for subway construction. It would cost no more or no less to build the subway. The only difference would be the paths of the IND lines, and the Broadway-Brooklyn Line.
Before you trot out obscure references in a failed attempt to butress your weak argument, explain what they mean. I refer to the "Viaduct Railway" you decry.
I love a good debate! As to consolidation, such would have been a pipe dream where it not for the El. Remember, New York City attempted to annex Brooklyn in the 1860s but a public referendum put before Brooklynites to that effect was voted down. The approval, when it came, was by the narrowist of margins and Brooklyn's mayor publicly rued the day of his city's lost independence. As to the Viaduct Railroad, that hair-brained proposal was put forth by William Marcy "Boss" Tweed in his attempt to destroy the then embryonic Greenwich Street/Ninth Avenue El which after its conversion to steam in late 1870 or early 1871, posed a clear and present danger to the various omnibus & horsecar routes which he (Tweed) and his cronies either owned outright or from which they received millions in illegal kickbacks. The Viaduct Railroad was therefore not only put forth as an alternative to the El, it also held the potential of reaping great profits in graft, for the proposed state charter authorizing its construction also gave Tweed the authority to place this monstrous stone Goliath of a railroad down any street of his choosing for perpetuity.
At the behest of the owners of the El, Charles T. Harvey, the inventor of the El, called in a favor from his old friend, the powerful state senator whose name escapes me for the moment (I think it was Erastus Corning), who successfully spearheaded the attempt to shoot down the bill authorizing Tweed to demolish the El. This was done by a two-thirds majority.
As to Nassau County, you are quite right that many towns long preceded the formation of Nassau County itself. In fact, my hometown of Freeport (I live in Baltimore now) celebrated its 100th anniversary in 1992. It was I think, originally called Raynorsville and derived its name from the inexpensive to free shipping costs provided along its Nautical Mile. Lynbrook in fact was founded by people emigrating east from Brooklyn and to honor their native soil took the last three letters of BROOK-LYN and moved them to the front to create the name of LYNBROOK.
Now you are quite correct in asserting that Queens had no rapid transit prior to the Dual Contracts. With New York and Brooklyn bursting at the seams, many folks there just got tired of country living. They wanted progress so they embraced Consolidation with open arms. On the other hand, the people of Lynbrook and other pre-existing towns knew that consolidation meant eventual urbanization and the thought of having a New York City that reached all the way out to Suffolk County did not appeal to them. So in true revolutionary fashion they voted to "secede" from Queens. Their fears were of course justified, for within twenty years the Broadway El had "invaded" the village of Jamaica Queens and overnight transformed that suburban town into an extension of New York City itself. Where it not for Consolidation, such would never have come to pass.
These arguments are buttressed by the facts put forth by Robert C. Reed in his book "The New York Elevated", Brian Cudahy's "Under the Sidewalks of New York" and Clifton Hood's "722 Miles". Though knowledgeable, I do not claim to know everything and nor do I aspire to so lofty a position for at such a moment all learning stops.
Finally, as to the first point, I have always found it wise to publicy answer one's own questions for it is the only way to elicit other answers that can either expose the folly, or validate the accuracy, of one's own response. In this particular case at least, I am am pleased to realize that it is the latter.
Good day.
Eric Dale Smith
Brooklyn was hardly linked by the el. One stop does not constitute linkage.
Brooklyn's mayor publicly rued the day of his city's lost independence.
Then why did he sign in agreement of consolidation. He could have rejected it and it would have been dead in it's tracks.
...the thought of having a New York City that reached all the way out to Suffolk County did not appeal to them. So in true revolutionary fashion they voted to "secede" from Queens.
No, Andrew Green's plan for consolidation never included what would be Nassau County.
Where it not for Consolidation, such would never have come to pass.
So you admit that consolidation was the cause, not the effect.
In signing off on Consolidation, the Brooklyn mayor acceded to the will of the people, a majority of whom in each of the affected boroughs, voted for it. It was only in Brooklyn itself that the vote was too close to call. As to Green's original plan, it was in effect a blank check. Had Nassau County not been formed, then there would have been no way to check urbanization at what is now the Queens/Nassau border, regardless of Green's original intent.
Now back to the El. Where it not for its capacity to move millions of people over relatively short distances, consolidation would not have come to pass. If this were so, then the horsecars and omnibuses would have triggered such an event years earlier. If people had a hard time spending more than an hour riding one of these things from the Battery to Thirtieth Street, then what makes you think they would have tolerated a trip several times as long to reach the Bronx, Queens, or the outer reaches of Brooklyn? There is an 1878 photograph of what is now Ninth Avenue. What do you see? An incomplete elevated structure disappearing into nowhere. If you look at a 1915 picture of Roosevelt Avenue, you see the nearly completed Flushing/Corona El traversing a newly laid out, ungraded, dirt road. Whether or not the Brooklyn and Manhattan Els connected was immaterial. The fact that they spurned such rapid urbanization where they existed was enough to convince many of the leading politicians of the day that if those two cities were linked, that it would form a megalopolis the envy of the world. The El proved that effective rapid transit spurred urbanization and it proved this because unlike the London Underground, the El appeared first.
Manhattan had Wall Street and Brooklyn had the Navy Yard. Those two entities alone were enough to ensure that those two cities could exist side by side for perpetuity. The El, in spurring urbanization in hitherto hard to reach areas, served to convince the city fathers that by combining the political/economic resources of the area (and thus tap into the vast untapped potential of miles of hard to reach real estate) that consolidation was in everybodys' long-term best interest. Without the El, it is doubtful that it (consolidation) would have occurred and even if it did, the odds are that it would have happened years later with Brooklyn having the upper hand due to its capacity to launch the ships of was.
Eric Dale Smith
[The El, in spurring urbanization in hitherto hard to reach areas, served to convince the city fathers that by combining the political/economic resources of the area (and thus tap into the vast untapped potential of miles of hard to reach real estate) that consolidation was in everybodys' long-term best interest. Without the
El, it is doubtful that it (consolidation) would have occurred and even if it did, the odds are that it would have happened years later with Brooklyn having the upper hand due to its capacity to launch
the ships of was.]
You might be right, although as with all "alternate history" it's not possible to know for sure. But what's interesting is that the unifying effects of transit seem to have ended with 1898's consolidation. Penn Station and the present Grand Central Terminal opened within the next 15 or so years, but the city didn't spread into Westchester or Nassau counties.
You're right. The el was a necessary prelude to the subway. The first one helped prove to the city that the city could reach far and wide, and the second did much of the work (along with "Elevated Subways").
Another reason that the city unified was because of Croton water. Brooklyn had a hard time with it's pumps in Queens and would be better served by the surface water upstate. It took them until the 1920s to give the other boroughs the upstate water.
And of course, at the time is was believed that a huge unified city would be better suited to serve all of the area's needs.
I have to reply to the slight on Baltimore. After the Great Fire of February 7 & 8, 1904 the Burnt District Commission recommeded (among several others) the construction of a subway under Baltimore Street and Saint Paul/Light Streets to get the streetcars off the major downtown streets. The United Railways was in favor of the plan, but could not afford to construct it. The City was unwilling to pay for it, either, so nothing was done.
The United's somewhat precarious financial condition prevented many street railway improvements until corrected in 1905.
After the Second World War, Baltimore's transport was sacrificed on the joint altars of NCL and the automobile. Leading the automobile faction was Henry Aaron Barnes, who once said "I have nothing against the streetcar except that it runs on the streets".
Nothing related to subway or rapid transit happened until Public Ownership, then as planning of Phase 1 of a six-pronged system began, the debacle over Washington Metro's increasing costs screwed every other new system out of total system funding, as Congress decreed "Never Again!"
I work 16 hours a week. I purposely worked 8 hours today and 8 yesterday so I can dedicate the rest of the week and weekend to riding. Tomorrow I hope to catch the R-142, and on Thursday I'm going up to Wassaic on Metro North. It's gonna be a very good week!
My site
Salaam,
Based on your ealier post about the R142/R142A order and not being able to railfan has been DOWNED. I railfaned on the R142A on the (6) and <6> today while enjoying a pretty view from my railfan window. HA! Also YOU CAN OPEN THE WINDOWS!!!!
Have a safe and blessed day!
Trevor Logan
07/11/2000
[I railfaned on the R142A on the (6) and <6> today while enjoying a pretty view from my railfan window.]
How long will it be until T/O's place anything that will block the passengers view of the cab?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not very long, I would imagine.
........excuse me honorable sirs;.......but is this thread a joke ?? ( not that I could not use a good laugh ) ....SEE WHAT ???......
are you saying the r 142 has a railfan window ??....I DONT THINK SO......please explain ....??!!!!!!!!.
I have been busy loading my los angeles jpeg thumnails with my i-mac & my epson2500 scanner with
film adapter I have been having some luck with the TWAIN photo system but my finished thumnails are
not as sharp & clear as I would want them to be .......any suggestions out there computer experts ??
The R142s are Transverse Cabs BUT, the window between the "real" railfan window and the door to the cab is pretty clear with a very decent view for railfanning.
Whenever you hit the NYC Metro Area, you'll see, unless some jacka$$ operator covers it.
Trevor Logan
now if i could stick my vidieo camera against the real rail fan window there ......MAN WHAT A VIEW !!
( like you can do with the redbirds )
What image editing software are you using? It would help to know that. But in general:
Try the settings on the image editing software when you reduce the picture size (try a different image sampling algorithm if that option is offered by your software) to make the thumbnails. Also try changing (increase file size and quality for more sharpness) the JPEG compression settings when you save the thumbnails. Those are the two usual culprits.
-Robert King
....frist i use an epson 2500 scanner copier to an old i mac g3 to an external I B M floppy drive usually i load the
Jpegs to the hard drive first then transfer to floppy drive later ...
The trick that i must learn is how to transfer it inside this message box. .Have you ever heard of the Twain system ??
i can scan any negative any size & thats how the new los angeles rail subway to nowhere will soon be on nyc subway
resources etc. feel free to e mail me with any suggestions as how to post html s & thumnails & pictures slow but sure
I am gettig the hang of this computer world .........( thank you )....salaamallah
Thumbnails are rarely sharp. They are just supposed to give the person an idea of what they'll see in the full-size image.
-Hank
How long would it take for the TA to enforce their regulations against employees.
Looking at a map of the New York City subway system, one is struck by the "hit and miss" layout of lines. What I mean is that some areas (outside obvious places like downtown Manhattan, downtown Brooklyn, and Coney Island) have two or more routes fairly close together while other areas are relatively distant from any subway station. And yes, I realize some of the parallel lines (B/D being so near the 4 in the Bronx, for instance) are due to the whole IND versus IRT/BMT thing.
I would imagine that, where the lines weren't built to serve existing development, development went to where the lines were built (IIRC, the Queens lines were built through farmland). Therefore, I would imagine that, while all the city developed to some degree, the areas near Ls and subways were developed at high density and other areas distant from rail transit developed at lower densities.
My question is, are there large, dense, population centers in the city that don't have a subway station within walking distance? In other words, places aching for an extension of the system, where "if MTA built it, they would come"? (And yes, I know about the East Side and Second Avenue.)
Well, in Queens you have neighborhoods like Bayside (where I live), which are not served by the subway even though they are nearly as densely populated as many which the subway serves. And even in Flushing there are sections which are quite far from the 7 train. I'm quite sure if the subway were ever extended to eastern Queens, there would be more than enough riders to justify it.
Andrew
[My question is, are there large, dense, population centers in the city that don't have a subway station within walking distance? In other words, places aching for an extension of the system, where "if MTA built it, they would come"? (And yes, I know about the East Side and Second Avenue.)]
Limiting ourselves just to Manhattan ...
The Javits Center (as has been discussed here ad nauseum)
Alphabet City (the "Avenue C jughandle" was never built)
Western fringes of Greenwich Village (it can be quite a walk to the Seventh Avenue IRT)
Battery Park City (once again, existing lines aren't particularly close)
Well, Coop City is an obvious example of a very dense population center (isn't it something like 80,000 people?) without a subway within walking distance. This is a very glaring deficiency in the subway system.
And the sad part about Co-Op City is that there's an existing rail line that goes through the area - Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, which sees only about 10 trains in each direction per day north of Penn Station (I wish I knew why). Because of the width of the Corridor through the Bronx (up to five tracks wide at some points), I don't see a good reason why a subway line can't be run up the Corridor to Co-Op City and connected into the 2nd Avenue Stubway. THAT would make the stubway a useful line and relieve overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue trains.
I guess the 6 could be extended to Co-Op City but that wouldn't relieve overcrowding. In fact it would make the crowds worse. It's better to have a new line on the corridor to relieve the crowding.
[And the sad part about Co-Op City is that there's an existing rail line that goes through the area - Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, which sees only about 10 trains in each direction per day north of Penn Station (I wish I knew why). Because of the width of the Corridor through the Bronx (up to five tracks wide at some points), I don't see a good reason why a subway line can't be run up the Corridor to Co-Op City and connected into the 2nd Avenue Stubway. THAT would make the
stubway a useful line and relieve overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue trains.]
One idea that's come up is to have some Metro North trains run via the Hell Gate Bridge into Penn Station. Trains would use the Amtrak routing as far north as the New Haven line junction in New Rochelle and would make stops in the Bronx including one at Co-Op City. Lack of capacity at Penn Station is really the only thing stopping this service (of course, Metro North would need some equipment that uses catenary, probably acquired from Amtrak). Unless some way is found to use Penn Station more efficiently - which surely could be done, but that's a whole 'nother thread - Metro North service would have to wait until completion of the LIRR link to Grand Central.
MN already has trains with catenary. The M-2,4,6. They could amost start the service tomorrow if they run one TPH and borrow a track from the LIRR( & build temporary wooden staircases from the ground to the doors at the new station locations). Yes, I know the LIRR already has maxed out all their tracks. Maybe run the trains through to Newark, so they'ed only hold up a track for about 1 minute.
[MN already has trains with catenary. The M-2,4,6.]
I'm trying to figure out how in the world I managed to forget that!!!
Amtrak should also extend more trains north of Penn Station to Boston, New Haven and Springfield and east to Long Island. I have no clue as to why Amtrak insists on terminating most of its NE Corridor trains at Penn Staion.
Not only that, the very few Amtrak trains that do head north of Penn Station sit there for up to an hour. And a lot of times I've seen Amtrak trains just sitting there not letting people on or off, sometimes with inside lights off. That just doesn't make sense. Getting some of those Amtrak trains out of Penn Station quickly might free up tracks for Metro-North Service from New Haven to go there. Maybe Amtrak should consider extending the weekday Clocker trains to New Haven as well.
The reason--other than tradition which is immense--is that if you ride a thru(Boston-DC) train, more than half of the passengers sometimes almost all detrain at Penn. (This from random personal observation 1968 -1999) That said, the lame scheduling with half+hour dwell for what should at most be ten minutes is inexcusable(service guarantee my ...) Sadly, on my first daylight trip on the Hell gate route years ago I saw the remains of local platforms in the Bronx--now obliterated. This line is a study in fall from grace--catenary over weeds wher tracks once existed, missing bridges for extra tracks, vestiges of former industrial sidings. Indeed this is a ROW with untapped potential. HOWEVER, the logistics are a real problem. The ex New Haven (Conn Dot cars have pans for PRR catenary BUT 3rd rail shoes for NYC. Penn is set up for PRR/LIRR 3rd rail. they don't mix--so sometime this century either one will be replaced or a dual use shoe will be produced so that once the GCT connection exists the fleets can be intermixed(and maybe the MJNCR MDBF can be rammed down the LIRR to the delight of riders)
(My question is, are there large, dense, population centers in the city that don't have a subway station within walking distance?
In other words, places aching for an extension of the system, where "if MTA built it, they would come"? (And yes, I know
about the East Side and Second Avenue.)
Depends on what you mean by dense. Density near the subway generally exceeds 30 housing units per acre of lot area. There are areas that are dense by national, but not NYC standards, between 10 and 30 units per acre, often developed with garden apartments (or, in Co Op City, high rises with lots of open space.
These include Co Op City, Starret City/Spring Creek and Marine Park in Brooklyn, a whole belt of Northeast Queens in the vincity of the LIE (including, for example, Elechester), Hillside Avenue in Queens. All of these areas were proposed for subway extensions in the city's 1969 plan.
Staten Island.
since the last 63rd St line thread went off on an (admittedly worthy) tangent...
What about the 63rd St extension openning up next year?
I've been hoping that the Q will be back on Broadway by then (I believe that is what the TA is promising.) and that it will run express on the Queens Blvd. line, all the way to 179th Street. That would be quite useful to an Eastern Queens rider like myself.
Currently the express is unused between the Arhcer-Hillside split and 179th St, and not used by the F east of 71st-Continental. I figured it would be best if the Q were the express and the F remained local, since this is consistent with the way these trains run in Manhattan.
Also, I understand that the G has to be cut back because of the extra train traffic. It's a shame, seeing as most of the Queens Blvd lcoal stations really belong to the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown. The way they seem to be cutting it back, you might as well just call it the "Brooklyn Crosstown".
At any rate, do they really have to cut it all the way back to Court Square? If it still ran to Queens Plaza, it still shouldn't overlap with the 63rd St connection, and it would be a much easier transfer between the G and the E,F and R.
Andrew
The reason the G can't run to Queens Plaza is because the G train feeds into the local tracks at that location. In order for the train to turn around, it would have to cross over both sets of express tracks, which would cause all sorts of delays. Even if the G terminated at the express tracks, it would still cause delays for the E and F trains, which run close together during rush hour. By terminating the G at Court Square, you such eliminate delays.
Yeah. I figured it was probably something like that.
Couldn't it go to somewhere along the lone G/R local tracks, like Steinway St, 46th St, or Northern Blvd, and turn arround there?
Andrew
(Couldn't it go to somewhere along the lone G/R local tracks, like Steinway St, 46th St, or Northern Blvd, and turn arround
there? )
This was never raised, but you are right, even with the new direct to Manhattan service, there will probably be capacity on the local tracks for six G trains per hour. It would take a grade separated junction, but they could have put a terminal further up the line, allowing a wider choice of transfers.
Actually, if they gave into Vallone and scrapped the N extension from Astoria to LaGuardia Airport, the MTA could build a spur off the IND local tracks at Northern Blvd. and Broadway to go underneath the BQE right-of-way to LaGuardia. That would solve the Court Square terminal problem for the G, the lack of airport access and avoid the Astoria NIMBYs all at the same time.
The G, the R and whatever the other train is (Q or V) would share the local tracks between Northern Blvd. and 36th Street, and the MTA would have the option of either running the G to LaGuardia, or if it turned out traffic patterns warranted it, moving the G's terminal back to 71st-Continental and running the Q or the V to the airport, giving passengers there a one-seat ride into Manhattan.
(Actually, if they gave into Vallone and scrapped the N extension from Astoria to LaGuardia Airport, the MTA could build a spur off the IND local tracks at Northern Blvd. and Broadway to go underneath the BQE right-of-way to LaGuardia).
That would cost a few extra dollars. Make that a few extra hundred million.
If the city were going to go through the trouble, it might as well build a four mile subway under 30th Street (parallel to the 31st St El and under the BQE) and Ditmars, extending the G as a local and the N as an express to the airport. Later, the N could be extended to Flushing or College Point.
The issue is money. Let's say this could be done for the price of the LA subway, about $200 million per mile. That would be great. BUT the MTA has estimated a cost of $700 million just to extend the El over to the edge of the airport.
WHY DOES EVERYTHING COST SO GODDAMN MUCH IN NEW YORK. No excuse about underground congestion and huge foundations here -- it's Queens.
[WHY DOES EVERYTHING COST SO GODDAMN MUCH IN NEW YORK. No excuse
about underground congestion and huge foundations here -- it's Queens]
And Queens has New York unions.
My thought on the other option was the G is tied into Queens Plaza already -- no need to build a flyover or flyunder between Court Square and QP to a 30th Street line (with the 60th and 63rd Street tunnel connections providing added obsticles. Plus the NIMBY attitude would probably be less among people already living along the BQE right-of-way than it apparently is among Valone's constituents in Astoria.
Do I think it's going to happen? No, but apparently neither is the LGA extension for the N train if the people in Astoria have their way (and you know a 30th Street subway tunnel would produce 30th Street NIMBYs out the wazoo -- by digging a line under the BQE it would be easier to keep the tunnel itself away from nearby buildings).
Unless the JFK rail line becomes wildly popular (and I've got my doubts there), there won't be any public pressure for a similar connection to LaGuardia, and the proposal will join other great NYC subway extension ideas in the dustbin of history.
(Digging a line under the BQE it would be easier )
What are you going to do? Shut down the BQE for four years?
Actually, I think if it really cost $200 million per mile, Queens Community District 1 would support tearing down the El on 31st Ave and building a subway. It's the money.
>>What are you going to do? Shut down the BQE for four years? <<
Cut and cover -- God knows the road surface using that method couldn't be any worse than some other parts of the BQE are right now :-)
Do you mean 31st Street instead of Avenue?
I read an article in the most recent issue of Civil Engineering that said that the 63rd Street Extension was ON SCHEDULE and UNDER BUDGET. I guess it just depends on which schedule and budget you're using...
I think NYC takes its cue from the Pentagon. If they can spend $9000 for a 13-cent Allen wrench, well.....
"Couldn't it go to somewhere along the lone G/R local tracks, like Steinway St, 46th St, or Northern Blvd, and turn arround there?"
The only switch shown on the track map for that stretch is just west of the Northern Blvd. Station.
According to the R142 Service Schedule I got from THIS SITE the Southbound 6 which stops at Bleeker St. at 3:45 should have been the R142. I waited at the Southbound Spring St. station from 3:30 to 4 and it never showed. Please remove the Service Schedule link from this site since it is wrong.
Well, THIS SITE does not get official announcements of service schedules. We do the best we can with the rumors and hearsay that float around and try to assemble the information as best as possible in order to reduce the incessant "when's the R142 going to run" questions. I'm sorry you didn't see the train. But whether or not the R142 makes a particular run or not on a given day is completely and totally out of our control.
-Dave
[Well, THIS SITE does not get official announcements of service schedules. We do the best we can with the rumors and hearsay that float around and try to assemble the information as best as possible in order to reduce the incessant "when's the R142 going to run" questions. ]
Please place this disclaimer near the link to the R142 Schedule, thanks.
There is a big disclaimer on this site that the site is NOT affiliated with MTA NYCTransit. As a result, everything posted here should be taken with a grain of salt - things change faster than can be noted here.
One thing you must understand is that schedules are ALWAYS SUBJECT TO CHANGE. It is in the fine print of every bus, railroad timetable and subway schedule you must have come across. These schedules were posted by competant employees, some of the RTO division, which will have a first hand knowledge of when the train shall depart the yards, terminals and gap stations. There is no "OFFICIAL" schedule for a particular type of car. There can be a general order stating which type of equipment can be run but in a less than perfect world, you will never be on time. BTW, in a year, there will be almost a thousand of these cars so you will surely get a chance to ride them.
The 142 had several delays today, often leaving Pelham Bay 1/2 hour after it was scheduled too. Give it some time to get used to the daily grind.
-Harry
I was on the R142 today, the reason why it was late is because on it's first run out this morning, the 8:08am, there was a train in front of it that went BIE at Hunts Point and at 59th Street that caused a backup of the whole line!!!!!
R142 SCHEDULE POSTED IS CORRECT!
Trevor Logan
Trevor,
Are you referring to the R142 on the #2 (I thought this was not running yet), or the R142A on the #6? -Nick
I'm referring the R142A on the (6) Line!
Trevor
Ok, thanks Trevor....thats what I thought. Of course it doesn't really matter for me since I won't be in NYC until August. Talk about Murphy's Law, I was in NY this weekend for the subway series, but was heading back to Boston Monday morning...uggh!!! -Nick
Was that a train of Redbirds or R-62As which went into BIE?
Aww, you should have waited a few minutes longer. It passed
Spring St s/b at 4:15
The 6:05 pm northbound #6 departure from Brooklyn Bridge actually took place at 6:29. I rode it up to E177/Parkchester. So the numbers might be a little off in terms of reality but so far they seem to be making the right number of trips...
-Dave
If you wanted the 142A you'd have "waited a few
more minutes"... the same way a redbird fanatic
like me "waits a few more minutes" INTENTIONALLY
for a redbird at 96th Street...
If you're such a Redbird fanatic why is your handle "(1) South Ferry (9)"? Last time I checked, the 1 and the rush-hour 9 trains ran EXCLUSIVELY with stainless steel R62As. Why not go by "Redbirds to South Ferry" or something like that?
As if you've missed my "Bring the Redbirds back
to the 1/9 Line" penchants.. tho it'll never
happen because of the low-ceiling shenanigans..
When you grow up with a subway line so close
to home.. it becomes a part of your world..
just ask Stef.. or Number7Rider... and moreover
i'm the ONLY SubTalker I've seen to date with a
Subway Route Sign as a handle.. be different.
1SF9
Are you perchance the person bidding on the South Ferry route sign that's currently on eBay? (Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in that sale, either as a vendor or a customer.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a resident of Eastern Queens, it is fun to dream about ideas for extending subway lines into my area.
Here are a few ideas, from the ridiculous to the sublime
F (and hopefully, Q) down Hillside Ave:
188 St (local)
196 St (local)
Francis Lewis Blvd (express)
Hollis Court Blvd (local)
Springfield Blvd (express)
Winchester Bvld (local)
Commonwealth Blvd (local)
Little Neck Pkwy (express)
IRT # 7 down Roosevelt Ave/Northern Blvd.
Parsons Blvd
162nd St.
Utopia Pkwy
Francis Lewis Blvd (express)
Clearview Expwy/207 St
Bell Blvd
Springfield Bvld (express)
IRT # 3 down Linden Blvd/Counduit Ave to JFK Airport (I don't have any specific stops in mind). Well, it's gotta be better than that "Airtrain".
BMT M train down Metropolitan Ave and Union Tpke to Nassau Line. Again I have no specific stops in mind.
Andrew
[...a few ideas, from the ridiculous to the sublime.]
Look up the New York Times from September 22, 1929 (yes, that's almost 71 years ago). There's a map show lots of proposed extensions and expansions, including the entire IND (with Hillside Avenue as far east as Little Neck Parkway, plus Second Avenue), Flushing Line extensions to both Bayside and College Point, and other interesting stuff. Of course, the stock market crashed five weeks later and put an end to most of the expansion ideas.
BTW, the current layout of Main Street station (stub-ends with platform-level fare control) permanently precludes any eastward extension of the Flushing Line.
Last time I was at Main St. station there was a mezzanine level running the entire length and, if I remember correctly, that was where the fare control was located. The fact that there are three tracks and two platforms at that station certainly suggests that extension was intended (as with the (F) station at 179th St).
Bob Sklar
[Last time I was at Main St. Station there was a mezzanine level running the entire length and, if I remember correctly, that was where the fare control was located.]
The west end fare control (booth R533, under the intersection of Roosevelt/Main) hasn't changed. It's still a mezzanine with a split turnstile array and street stairs to each corner.
The mezzanine used to run all the way to the east end fare control (booth R534) near the entrance to what used to be Caldor's, previously Alexander's. That space is now a crew quarters. As part of the station rehab, the entire station "envelope" was extended about 80 feet eastward (which required digging out under Roosevelt Avenue) to create a new platform-evel fare control area with three escalators, a new stair, and a new elevator to the street. (That allowed a single elevator to provide full accessibility to BOTH platforms.)
In order to accommodate the escalator and elevator housings, Roosevelt Avenue had to be narrowed to two lanes at approximately midblock between Main Street and Union Street. (Otherwise, the 9-foot-wide sidewalk would have been narrowed to 1 foot!) The Community Board opposed the street narrowing, but ONLY because it reduced the amount of space available for people to park illegally while shopping at the various stores on Roosevelt.
Note: BOTH booths are open 24/7: R533 because it always had been; R534 because it's the ADA-compliant entrance.
The new station on the East end is very nice, but it does block the way East, i.e. extension.
Mr t__:^)
Now why did they have to go and do that? They made it much more difficult for future extension!
I have seen it (yesterday) and it does look nice. I have to say, in general the retooled Main Street station is quite nice. It keeps the IRT look but looks nice and new :)
It always surprises me when someone says that the recent renovations at Main Street (or the 8th Avenue lower level at Times Square) prevent lengthening of the 7 train. After all, if you're going to spend billions of dollars to extend the line, what's a few million more to brush aside a few escalators and an elevator?
Chuck
Lets see...
1. New line from Metropolitan (M) to Bedford Nostrand via Crosstown Express and Myrtle ave el.
2. Tunnel from Queensbridge line (after East River, before Queensbridge) to Lower Montauk LIRR.
Stops:
Greenpoint Ave
Penny Bridge
Haberman
Grand Ave
Fresh Pond
Metro Mall (with transfer for M)
Glendale
Woodhaven Blvd / Union Tpk.
Richmond Hill (transfer J/Z)
Sutphin / Archer (on the J/Z tracks)
Parsons / Archer (on the J/Z tracks)
168th / Archer
183rd St (this and all further stops on Jamaica ave).
Farmers Blvd.
Francis Lewis Blvd.
Hempstead Ave
Springfield Blvd.
I forgot to mention...
Keep the Grade Crossings Intact!
SPLAT!
Ooops..... pity.
My plan called for extending the J and Z down Archer and Jamaica Avenues (the two merge to the east), then TURN down Hempstead Avenue to serve Belmont Park.
The Montauk branch line would connect to the Hillside Avenue line which would turn north at the first oppurtunity and run along Union Turnpike to Lakeville Road-Lake Success.
The Hillside Avenue line would be great! All the stations are in the right places except Francis Lewis should be a local stop. 196th St. should move east one block to 197th to avoid having a station with a kink in it and to better position the entrances.
Retile 179th Street with white and restore the purple. Keep the blue/orange and the Strongmen in the mezzanine.
Purple family: 188th, 197th, F.L.Blvd, H.C. Blvd.
Blue family: Springfield (dark), Winchester, Commonwealth
Green family: Little Neck (dark).
wayne
Good idea. Now what is the price tag and how are you going to pay for it!
Ok, folks, as a relative newcomer, I'm curious what, if anything, makes our ex-New Yorker friends *glad* they left NYC, and whether it was one of those things that made them leave...
Keystone Pete,Ex Suburbanite
i was just curious whether kawasaki and bombardier are using the same basic hardware and software for the computer control... if they are the same, then it seems to be my uneducated electrical engineering mind that bombardier is having some sort of shielding problem, where stray signals are being picked up...
Riding home on the Flushing line, and looking out the railfan window as always, I saw a plume of smoke emerging from the tracks. The train slowed, and as I got closer, I saw flames emerging from a large wood block between the hird rail and the track. The location was just a couple of yards east of the 60th Street station. The TO (whom I was talking to) called in a 12-2 and reported the fire. I asked him what happened next and he said that the crew will go down with a fire extinguisher and shut down the track temporarily. I was lucky to be on that train.
-Daniel
Hmm... now, that's what the extinguishers are for! I see. "Fire Extinguisher Located Under Train Operator's Seat" Or something along that lines of that.
IF you need any further information on FDNY Activities ,,let me know
Steve
FDNY
Now isn’t that something? A couple weeks ago I was riding the D trains and at Sheepshead Bay station, on the northernmost side of the Manhattan-bound express track there was a track fire. I saw smoke billowing out, nothing humongous mind you, but noticeable nonetheless. They finally noticed and reported about it, but I don’t know what happened thereafter, as the train I got on at that point left on its way towards the Bronx. ’Twas fortunate that this occurred on a Sunday afternoon when no trains were running on the express tracks.
In today's Daily News on the Op-Ed page a highlighted Voice of the People letter from Alexander S. Bockstein (is that one of you guys in disguise) reads:
"Brooklyn: Blaming the Redbird cars on the IRT for the subway draggings is wrong. The balme lies totally with the riding public. Riders today do things that previous generations would never have dreamed of. As a transit historian, I know that people once had more respect for the subway -- and for the world in general.
Years ago, a subway car had exposed fans, yet nobody ever stuck their hands in a moving fan, What is needed is to educate the public on how to ride and behave on the subway. People must be taught that you do not stick a stroller into the subway car doors when the conductor has said, "Please stand clear of the closing doors." And don't attempt to put the stroller into the car unless you have a clear entry and know that it will fit completely.
These are common-sense procedures that the riding public seems to have forgotten. Also, if you cannot make it onto the train, have patience to wait for the next one"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++End of quote!!
Common sense??? In NYC? Who's he kidding?
What we need is a Rudy style assault in the subways: Tickets for holding doors, littering and other offenses. The publicity alone would make people take notice.
Now guys - fess up - which one of you is Alexander S. Bockstein?
If I remember correctly, Alex Bockstein (aka Alex Baldstein) is the President or some sort of the Urban Transit Club (UTC).
Flx
[What we need is a Rudy-style assault in the subways. Tickets for holding doors, littering, and other offenses....]
Perhaps, but don't expect it to come from Rudy. Remember that Rudy does not control the subway system, and thus detests it, and thus does not pay for it at all. Remember that Rudy himself removed most transit policing several years ago in an effort to put more cops on the streets (which he controls, and "where cops belong") without actually hiring more cops, and to move the crime from the streets into the subway ("where it belongs").
I know Alexander Bockstein personally. To my knowledge, he does not post here. If he does, I do not know his handle.
07/12/2000
I remember the bad old days of the seventies with graffittied R-27/30's with green interiors and gray doors. What still stands out till this day is how the whole fleet got totally mismated. How and why did this happen and when roughly did it start?
BTW-Those 2 R-30's #8289-8290 parked in Coney island yard by McDonald Ave.......MISMATES !!
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC, the R-27s and R-30s had couplers on the blind ends, as did the R-26s and R-28s when originally delivered. As a result, they were relatively easy to separate. When the R-29s introduced drawbars, the mating arrangement became more or less permanent, or to put it differently, it became more difficult to separate a married pair. Gene Sansone refers to married pairs joined by couplers as Protestant marriages and to drawbar lashups as Catholic marriages.
I wonder if the Vatican has anything to say about all those mismatched R-32s.:-) Or was the TA given the power to grant annulments?
Orange Catholics? That doesn't make much sense :-)
Rode the R-142A today on Lex from 51 St. southbound through the loop and all the way up to Castle Hill Av and then back to 59th St. (Expected it to arrive around 5:40, but caught it at 6:05. I was prepared for this possibility, however, and was not upset.) I found the trains do indeed ride noticably smoother and quieter. The "indirect" lighting makes the interior more pleasant. It was nice to ride a train that has not yet been scratchitied beyond belief. The AC was perfect. Was surprised to notice that no cabs exist on any car besides those on end of the train & the conductor's cab. The floor was black, speckled with small, colored confeti-esque shapes, which is good for masking grime. But the floor was already sticky. Got to chatting with one of the contractors, with which the first car was swarming. He mentioned, among other things in our lengthy talk, that Kawasaki personel had been very meticulous about cleaning the cars daily during preparations at 180th St., and that they work extremely hard and carefully. Made me wish they would stay around for such duty after the test period is over. He also mentioned that differences between the Bombardier & Kawasaki designs include placement of the computer hardware. As far as the automated station stop voiceovers and LED displays, it was only off by one stop on 2 occasions, and the engineers were scurrying about addressing the problem as we went. Very concerned and concientous. I mentioned, and they said they had been hearing from other customers, that the voice announcements were too soft. I must applaud these guys. They seemed genuinely interested in what the passengers thought about the new train and weren't afraid to ask, and the media were long gone. Just average Joes. Most people had praise for the new trains. I didn't get that kinks like the announcements being off on occasion bothered the customers much once they found out this was the "test period." I understood, and so did they. Kudos to Kawasaki & their contractors for listening.
Pete,
It's great to see you were able to meet people willing and excited to talk about the new trains. That reminds me a few years ago when I was permitted to ride the City Hall Loop, and I got into a neat discussion with the motorman about City Hall's history, and other subway-related topics as well. Certainly I understand if employees aren't interested in chatting with customers if they are too exhausted or want to just pay attention to the job, but I will applaud right along with you to employees who enjoy taking the time to talk with people who love the system. -Nick
Yes, I'm glad to hear that Kawasaki really cares about their R142As and what riders think about them. They were also on board the R110A when it was being tested on the 2. I'm glad to see quality still matters to some companies. Maybe Amtrak should have considered getting Kawasaki to make its Acela trains.
Hey Folks,
Are you ready for the trip up North this weekend? I will not be able to make the trip to Maine, but I am hoping to ride the T on Sunday with all my fellow subtalkers, even though I have to leave by 2:30/3 PM to go to work.
Now I realize some people may already have plans on what kind of route we will be taking, but i thought why not offer a few suggestions (but planners, please take no offense) :)
-Since we are meeting at Park Street Station first, it would make since to start the trip on either the red or the green line. I'm sure many of you will want to ride the Mattapan High Speed Trolleys...perhaps we should do that first, since it will take awhile to get there.
-The Type 8 has been running on the weekends, but I am unsure of the exact times. If someone can find out the times, we can plan the schedule accordingly.
-On the green line, I recommend riding the D to Resevoir, and hopping the (C) at Cleveland Circle. Perhaps we could go to Arlington Station from there, cross the platform, and catch an E train, which offers some "classic" streetcar service as you go out to heath street...where you can see the tracks that used to go to Arborway.
-On the red line, I've heard from Todd Glickman that the ride between Porter Square and Alewife is nice because the speed limit increases to 55 mph, plus there is a nice view before that after Charles/MGH going over the Charles River...a must see!
-We can hit the Orange and Blue lines too, though I'm not really sure how "special" these lines are...definitely hit the Mattapan line and green line (hopefully a type 8 in there) first.
Finally, it's good that we are doing this on a Sunday. I (other Boston subtalkers may have one too) have a T Pass, and will be able to get one person on for free all day. This is a benefit the T gives pass holders every Sunday.
LOOKING FOWARD TO SEEING EVERYONE!!! -Nick
Will be leaving with the Cape Cod Crawl this Friday with the 3/4 Ton Crew from Brandford. I don't know enough about the T to suggest any plans so will be following the crowd.
See ya then.
Sorry you can't get on the bus 9 AM Sat ... yes Seashore has a bus & Todd has gotten permission to take it out. We may also take her for a short ride to Kennebunkport mid-day while all the customers are at Seashore ;-)
I've printed off a copy of your post so that the 3/4 Ton Crew can talk about it on the way up Friday night. I'm also expecting David Cole & Jeremy Whiteman to join us as guides for the Boston portion of this three day weekend ... yes we're taking Monday off to catch the ferry at New London then stop by Riverhead to see if the steamer is realy ready to make trips to Greenport.
After four days with each other I hope we're still friends :-)
Mr t
The ferry runs to Orient Point, unless you're talking to someone else.
Do they really still use steam or that's just a term still used to refer to boats that run on engine power of some sort?
And now someone's going to complain about that tiny little correction I made. So are we supposed to go on ignoring each other's errors and continue to be misinformed?
Some of us don't mind a CORRECTION. I have a boss who avoids nit picking my corr. if it's basically correct. It's his way of getting me to do the writing instead of him.
Mr t__:^)
[... yes we're taking Monday off to catch the ferry at New London then
stop by Riverhead to see if the steamer is realy ready to make trips to Greenport ...]
[The ferry runs to Orient Point, unless you're talking to someone else.
Do they really still use steam or that's just a term still used to refer to boats that run on engine power of some sort?]
You are correct, the ferry runs form New London to Orient Point.
Riverhead has a steam museum, the kind that runs on rails vs. water. Their "museum" is the station at Greenport vs. the "yard" which is at Riverhead and we've heard that they are about to run steam trains between the two stations.
We'll report our findings.
Mr t__:^)
It's Pigs.
Now as for my other question, does the ferry really use steam or is that just a general term used even for boats that use diesel?
It's a small diesel ferry ... I've asked my two friends if either gets sea sick |8-o
Unlike to big monster that goes from Port Jeff. to Bridgeport ...
BTW, the last trip of the day on that one is a cruise to nowhere. They put a band on it ... very nice on a summer's evening !
The LIRR & a bus will get you there, but don't think the bus is there when you get back :-(
Greenport also has a ferry if that's your thing. It goes to Shelter Island. You could take the LIRR, have lunch (across the street) walk into town & get back in time for the next train, but walk slow because the service isn't very frequent.
Mr t
I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the museum, as well as meeting a bunch of fellow SubTalkers for the first time. You guys will even have a sneak preview of all my CTA photos, most of which have been scanned but haven't been uploaded to the website yet.
And now (drum roll please...), the official logo for the Boston T Party!
(I hope my boss doesn't find out I have this much free time on my hands!)
-- David
Boston, MA
The Nth Ward
David, YO DA MAN! Can you print out a color version of that we can put on ex-(T) Fishbowl Bus 6169 I'll be chauffering you around in at Seashore?
Glad you like it... About what size did you have in mind? Unfortunately I'm rather limited by my printing hardware, at least without going to a professional print shop and paying them to print it.
-- David
Boston, MA
If you can do an letter or legal size that's fine! Then maybe a "wallet size" that SubTalkers can put on their shirts while on tour :-)
Wish I could be joining you this weekend, however, the realization that I will either have to move or purchase an automobile to get to my new job in Queens has put a significant crimp on my financial situation, and I simply can't afford to travel to Maine and Boston and spend a weekend.
-Hank
Eat your hart out all you fence sitters ! Well maybe next year ?
Even with a forcast of rain Sat & Sun it's NOT going to dampen our spirts. I'm ready, have my bag in the office & expecting the other two that are taking the same car just after lunch. Lou found out that 684/84 has a lot of construction so we'll be taking 15 to 91 in CT.
Hey Todd, I thought you put a good word in with the man for Traffic & Weather
Mr. t,
While all of the NYC-based SubTalkers will have a wet day on Saturday, it looks like it will be pleasant and dry at Seashore in Maine. Sunday in Boston may be showery, but that's OK by me.
As one who has made the trip from NYC (and specifically LI) to New England dozens of times, on balance the best route is Hutch to Merritt/Wilbur Cross to I-91 to I-84 to I-90. Heading directly to Maine, take I-295 to I-495 to I-95; heading to Boston, continue on I-90.
While I know that this weekend's SubTalk Field Trip will be a success, I look forward to a reprise next year, when (we hope!) AMTRAK service will be running between Boston and Portland, ME, so that more of you can make it.
And that's Transit and Weather Together!
[While I know that this weekend's SubTalk Field Trip will be a success, I look forward to a reprise next year, when (we hope!) AMTRAK service will be running between Boston and Portland, ME, so that more of you can make it.]
Great minds think alike ... as you know we wanted to do that this year, but since no Acela trains sets are on the line yet we opted for auto-transit.
Mr t__:^)
What time do we meet at Park Street on Sunday?
Nick
Score an error on Newsday...
Silver 2???
quoth:
"..An express train had just roared into one of the most crowded stations in New York, sending a stifling gust of humid air across the packed platform. When the commuter approached the doorway of the No. 2 express train, the silver doors suddenly slammed shut.
What is any TA plans are out there if a train gets stuck in an river tunnel on how to evacuate it? Especially in power failure?
I remember reading about the '65 blackout and people that spend over 12 hours stuck in trains stuck in the 60th street BMT tube and the Steinway tube. Can't the TA have locomotives to pull trains out on sidings near tubes?
Also the 60th street tube runs under Roosevelt Island, why couldn't have an emergency exit be put there?
Does 53rd street (E,F) tubes have an emergency exit at Roosevelt Island because I thought I saw one in the tunnel at about it's midpoint.
I believe all tubes that go under Roosevelt Island have emergency exits there. In a river tube, the low ventalation would cause a locomotive to suck up all the oxygen and suffocate the people.
The LIRR *does* have a locomotive standing by at Harold Tower to go in and pull out a wounded consist. I guess they were only presuming a train or 3rd rail power failure, and that tunnel fans would remain on.
(I don't even know if there *are* fans for that tunnel!) Obviously if there are no fans, then I guess they expect to send that diesel in there anyway.
The protection locomotive had an M1 type coupler attached to it, and also an M1 type control stand in the cab, since the M1s would mate only with their own kind.
Elias
i just woke from a strange dream... i was operating the r 142's... i had brought along a cassette of the r9's and i was trying to find the vcr in the cab so that i could watch the r9's on the tv monitor... just then a soft voice said:
" i'm sorry dave... i can't let you endanger this mission by watching r9's... i have put all the passengers into suspended animation, while we explore the monolith that was just discovered on the tracks at 96th street... if you persist in your attempts to turn me into an r9, i will lock you out of the cab and go into ato mode..."
right about then i awoke... walked quietly into the ward room and found everyone reading the subtalk message board...
Why was that voice calling you Dave?:-)
Are you sure the R-142s didn't have those good old throbbing compressors in your dream?
While walking back to the Bx41 bus from Mount Vernon today, I happened to look in the direction of the 239th street yard, and spotted something in MTA silver and blue. Intrigued, I left the bus stop and walked over to the yard for a better look.
What I spotted turns out to be a pair of R-12 relics in the old MTA silver/blue paint scheme. They didn't look as if they had a date with the scrapper, as most of their windows were in place, and the bodies didn't appear to be in too bad a condition. Unfortunatley they were on the upper level lay-up tracks and I couldn't see their numbers or whether they still had their underbody equipment, due to a train of R62's parked on the inner yard lead waiting for a lineup.
Any speculation regarding their appearance there?
---PCJ
Welcome to SubTalk, Patrick. You've just answered a question for me. The pair that you spotted at 239th St Yard is R-12 5782 and R-14 5871, last used as fire department training cars at Coney Island. They were at Westchester Yard until recently and were then moved around. These are to be preserved for the Transit Museum, so their chances of meeting the scrapper is highly unlikely.
One thing's that's odd though. I would have thought that the R-12/R-14 pair would have been at Mosholu Yard. Mosholu Yard holds the other old cars that were previously at Westchester. R-17 6895 resides here, as well as R-22 7486, and most probably R-21 7267. The superintendent at Westchester was interested in restoring the old cars. One day, the cars just disappeared from there. The Superintendent moved and took the cars with him.
I do recall seeing 7486 being moved to 239th St Yard, somtime ago, but I belive that was for work, unless it was being stored temporarily. The 12/14 pair may be stored here temporarily unless they're getting work, which seems likely. 6895 came out of here at one point, at the end of an R-33 consist, in functioning order.
-Stef
Talking about the R-12's, here's something I always wondered about. I've ridden on many an R-12 and R-10. The R-12's very much like the R-10's with their desk type fans, single destination and route signs above the windows, trigger door controls between cars like pre-war trains, etc. The only differences I can remember is the IRT Vs IND sizes and the seating arrangement. (the R12 had all aisle facing seats while the R10 had an R1-9 type seating arrangement.) My question, were they the same mechanically? Everyone talks about the R-10's speed, were the R-12 just as fast? Were they basically the same car?? I don't ever recall riding on a train of all R-12's. They were always mixed with other IRT cars. I stopped riding the Bronx 3rd Av when they got rid of the World's Fair Low-V's.
I would say the R-12s/14s were just as fast. I don't see why they couldn't run together. Outside of sizes, they were very similar. Virtually every car from the R-10 through R-68 can MU except for the R-44 and R-46.
-Stef
Didn't the R-12s have electric door operators (vs the pneumatic
on the R-10) ?
It had to happen....
NO SUPRISE HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Now, the TA will name the grandmother as a third-party defendant and argue that it was all her fault. I wonder how much it's going to cost to make this go away.
Caught the 6:30PM out of Brooklyn Bridge yesterday.
1 - Ride is smooth but stops were hard at times if the brakes were not released on time.
2 - They had trouble resetting the interior signs and anouncements until it was at Bleeker street
3 - There was no announcement (or sign) for 110th Street. (Thats correct because it is closed).
4 - The exterior signs had all 'Brooklyn Bridge' even when it got to Parkchester when I had to get off
Caught it at 6:45AM this morning at Grand Central
1 - No automated anouncements.
Would any of the problem reset the 30 day clock?
Yes.
Looks like several of us were on the same train-- I got off at Parkchester as well.
Personally I want to find the smack who walked in front of me at Brooklyn Bridge right as I was taking the picture I waited 45 minutes to set up... Lets hope it wasn't anyone here...
-Dave
dave, that was you taking the picture and screaming those 4 letter words coded in binary?... just joking, besides i am so thin that even if i was standing in the picture i wouldn't have come out..
even if i was standing in the picture i wouldn't have come out..
How true, since we all know that you're just a figment of your own imagination :-)
Seriously though, if they averaged the two of us we'd come out as normal-sized people. But normal? Never!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not Guilty.
1SF9
I don’t know – I traveled on R142 #7220 on the last train trips Tuesday night. I got to see the old, closed City Hall station as it was looping back to the Brooklyn Bridge station (and I thought that the lighting reminded me of those of Fulton Street and Brooklyn-Queens crosstown stations of the IND before they were equipped with fluorescent lighting; yet the City Hall station still looks good after all these years). And I remained on the train right to the point where it went out of service for the night at Pelham Bay Park.
They go out of service? Aren't they supposed to run 24/7?
NO !!
At night they analize the data and try to make any necessary modifications
i agree with u on that one. the signs were however to me worked fine but the electro map was backwards at times. overall the Kawasaki R 142
was a nice ride but rode like an R62/62A except way smoother take off. stopping was typical. amazing interior, cheezy door chimes voices are good but not loud enough. all this needs is improvement in volume and sign usage, everything will be alright. can't wait to ride the bombardier set. though hearing of its crappy reputation, maybe by time of its ability to run it will match the Kawasaki set with perfection and hopefully do better in areas that the kawasaki failed on to my opinion which is automated voices and signs and door chimes.
a long rumored railfan video that was made by train operator freddy kruger is now available to all... it is titled railfan video on the #6 line... it has been widely viewed in crew rooms around the system, and has been given credit for improving crew morale for the last year...
train operator kruger, while operating his train, had a video camera mounted in his transverse cab aimed at the railfan window... over a period of several months the camera captured many railfans... there are several clips of heypaul standing by the window and then being pushed away by several 6 year old railfans... there is a clip of a very well known railfan who threatened with a butcher knife several 4 year olds who were standing in front of him looking through the window... a favorite of many of the train operators was one of our doug looking through the window and announcing the stops on the franklin ave shuttle... at times it is hard to make out who is standing in front of the window, since the railfan is drooling all over the glass... another favorite part for all the train operators was the reaction of railfans when a brilliant flash bulb was ignited in their faces... also amusing was seeing the reaction of several railfans when the speedometer was rigged to show that the train was doing 85 miles per hour...
you can have all this and more candid shots of railfans picking their noses for the low price of $29.95... get your order in by this friday the 13th and freddy will personally autograph your face...
( don't put up a response telling me that friday isn't the 13th... i realize that today is the 12th, which makes friday the 15th )
friday the 13th falls on a wednesday this month.......
I also understand when Sea Beach Fred comes to New York, he will take a Video of his Sea Beach Line from Astoria to Coney Island, and will count all the people who take the entire trip on his left hand. It will be Fred Returns to the Sea Beach, unless hey Paul comes up with a new title.
You and my daughter both suffer from the the same affliction - You forgot that 2000 has a leap day, so everything following is one day later. I arrived on this planet on July 13, and that's a Thursday this year.
Today, for the record, is Wednesday July 12, 2000.
I arrived on this planet on July 13
An alien, huh? :-)
No more or less than some others who post here. I, however, came via human parents, which sorta gives me squatter's rights on the third plantet from the central star.
Yea, I know I was off on Tuesday and it messed me up for the rest of the week. Sort of like when r-142 auto announce skips a station and goes haywire.
Peace,
ANDEE
That hit reality there. I remember running some R44s and could see the reflections of those peeking through the cab glass off the windshield. One dude was picking his nose all through the Rockaway Flats. BTW, I'd like the smash cam video placed at Empire Blvd if you can send it.
I read many posts about people doing dumb things on the subways. But what about Metro-North or NJ transit. On some lines the trapdoors are left open. If someone falls they die. I never head of such a occurence. Are commuter train passenges more logical then subway riders.
On all MN and most NJT trains, if the trapdoor is left open the side door cannot close. Result: They leave the side door open for sucessive low platform stations (especially on long trains). This was also done on the old LIRR coaches. The ACMUs on Metro-North must leave the doors open, since they're manual. The only occurrence of someone falling out I know of was on Unsolved Mysteries, where someone is believed to have dissapeared after walking off their NJT train and into the river while it was stopped on a bridge. It is believed he was drunk.
Some idiot-proofing has been done since 1990: On the Comet III and IV for NJT, the trap doors may be left open with the side door closed, and the side door has 2 parts, controlled by 2 different buttons on the control panel. "Open High" opens the top part of the door, as well as the center doors, and is used for high level platform stations. It leaves the lower part (with an extension of the trapdoor) closed so there is no unusually large gap bet. the train and platform. "Open low" only opens the end doors, and opens all parts of the door, including the trapdoor extension and the lower part of the door, enabling the stairs to be used.
The Comet IIs, after GOH, will also have this feature.
The Comet Vs will also get this feature.
The Comet Is numbered in the 1600 and 1700s have no trap doors, so they can only be used on lines where every stop is low platform (Main, Bergen, Pascack, Boonton - at Dover everyone must use one door).
On the older diesels, before they started using the ex-electric 1955 MU's the doors were all manual, not electric and I remember many a train with the doors open even on lines with all high platforms. I loved riding by an open door although I always held on to something tightly. Another fun place to ride was on the open rear platform when there was no rear locomotive.
Back in '98 a conductor once asked me to open and close the manual doors on an Oyster Bay train, after Albertson it was quite clear that the passengers didn't understand the concept of a 'manual door', and the train crew had been asked to keep the doors closed because of a large group of young kids on the train (fear of them falling out). So I had to run at every stop (on the platform) opening the doors of the 3 open cars on the train (one in every vestibule). In exchange for my services, I got $5 and the conductor "forgot" to collect my ticket.
In London on the Tube once, back when the last car was a smoking car, I saw a guy who was reading one of the tabloids (probably not the Dail Mail, which actually requires the ability to read :-). Anyway, his cigarette touched the paper a little too long. It shot up in a flame and the guy jumped. I couldn't believe it. He wasn't hurt, but looked like he was very embarrassed. A neighbor of ours who is from London said she has seen that on the Tube a few times. At least now they have gotten rid of the smoking cars. I wonder if they still allow dogs on the train.
(I read many posts about people doing dumb things on the subways. But what about Metro-North or NJ transit.)
Here is a dumb one I did. Riding the LIRR mostly on weekends, I did not know that Long Island Bound express trains run on the Manhattan Bound tracks in the afternoon.
Once, I happened to be on the Island on a weekday night. I was leaning over and looking down the tracks for my train, when suddenly a train came up from behind and roared by a couple of inches from my head. I nearly lost my balance and fell into it.
I'm passing along information I received this morning from a friend who is a reliable source of information on MBTA doings:
The Type-8 (Breda LRV) problems continue. There was a center-truck derailment on July 7 at Eliot Station on the D/Riverside, car #3804. Yesterday morning, #3805's center truck derailed at Brookline Village. No word if the two incidents are related, or what the cause might be. Nor is it known if this will "halt" the use of these car types, or which only seven have been accepted (and another seven in acceptance testing). As my friend mentioned to me, maybe the entire R-142/R-142A order will be filled and in service before the Type-8s! And my response... maybe the Big Dig will be one first!
So for the SubTalkers coming to Boston this Sunday, I would doubt there will be any Type-8s in service, since there are plenty of Boeings and Type-7s to fill the scheduled trips. To see a Type-8, take the D/Riverside. There are usually a few parked in the Resevoir yard, which can be seen on the outbound trip, and also at the Riverside terminal yard.
I spent most of July 6 and 7th in Boston, plus a side trip to Lowell.
The type 8 situation was not as disappointing as I had expected.
There were a few trains in service, including car 3811 coupled to Kinki 3622. That was on 7/6. On 7/7, 3622 was coupled to a different type 8 and sitting in the yard.
The ride on the Riverside line on the type 8 was bouncy and snappy! Pretty much the way I like it, but that's not what counts I suppose.
The operators I spoke with seemed mixed. One problem was a very obvious blind spot caused by the mirror outside the front doors.
Happy to see the Boeings still going. Surprised at all the "wraps" the T puts on the LRV's, mainly the Kinkis. I've got to get up there again; too many got away.
The PCC's at Mattapan-Ashmont were great. Two redone in the orange/cream, although not in service.
As I didn't get to Boston until after 12noon, and headed to lunch immediately, I didn't get to contact you, Todd. On the 7th, I was in Lowell until about 11:30 am, again hitting Boston about lunch time.
Left town about 3pm for a 6:15 arrival in the Bronx.
Joe
Very interesting that the T is having similar problems to Muni's. The T should send the Type 8 drawings to Kinki-Sharo, they could most likely build a low-floor model that works without all the Breda teething problems.
Breda seems to not be able to build an LRV for US comsumption without beaucoup problems. Cleveland, San Francisco and now Boston. Everybody who buys LRVs from Breda has problems that require much debugging and retrofit to get a dependable fleet.
Recently I have noticed an effort by SEPTA to paint all the signaling equipment with a fresh coat of glossy black. It makes the old US&S stuff really stand out against the rest of the subway which is uniformly painted 'Grime'. Painting includes signals, switch motors, trip arms, the things that work the arm and all the old cast iron relay boxes.
In Part 10 of Jersey MIke asks Pointless Opinion Questions About the Subway the question is "Have you ever been the only person on a subway thus getting a personal ride. And for our transit professionals: Have you ever driven a completely empty train.
Frequently!
On my trips to WCBS on weekend mornings, departing WTC at about 4:45 am I will often be the only one in the head car. I find that most of the homeless are towards the rear of the train, and that most other passengers ride in the conductor's car.
Two other "rides for one" come to mind:
A ride over the Manny -B a few years ago on a Slant-40 (don't remember if it was a B or Q). Of course I was at the STORMFAN WINDOW.
Then, on my recent trip to San Francisco, I was the only person in the last car of a BART train from Oakland to San Francisco, through the TransBay Tube.
On the #7, frequently (Manhattan Bound non-rush direction). Also, any car w/no A/C in 90+ degree weather (espc. commuter rail).
And now, the strangest occurrence known to man on the LIRR:
It's New Year's Eve, 1999, and I am planning on taking the afternoon special direct-to-Penn Port Jefferson train (from Jamaica). What happens? Because of the fire in Penn that crippled 2 tracks, that train terminated at Jamaica 10 minutes early (which is strange in and of itself). However, everyone got on the train across the platform, local to NY and standing room only. I waited for the connecting train, which left immediately after another express to NY. This train originated in Jamaica, so it was empty when it arrived (on track 4, so nobody knew it was going to NY). Result: I am the only passenger on an 8 car LIRR train to NY. The conductor and asst. conductor both entered my car at the same time and remarked "The only paying customer on the train!" and they gave me back my ticket with a "Happy New Year" comment as they walked away.
I have a similar type of story. Until last year the Black River & Western ran a Saturday night passenger train from Flemington, NJ to Lambertville, NJ.It was sometimes pulled by a steam locomotive and arrived in Lambertville (across the river from New Hope, PA) a little after 8 PM. The return trip left at 10:30. This gave the passengers time to wander around Lambertville or walk over the bridge into New Hope. Rosanne and I did just that and had been making a tradition of it every year. The very first time we went, however, (about 10 years ago) we went late in the summer and we were the only passengers on the whole train. The crew was happy we were there because it meant they could run the trip and be paid.
The last time it happened to me was when I was coming home from work around 8pm-9pm from the Broad St station in downtown Manhattan several months ago. Noone else entered the uptown (J) car I was in. So I decided to see how it was really like to sleep on a bench like a homeless bum. I lied down on the seat and rode it comfortably and relaxing all the way to...... Fulton St before the train entered the station. The ride really felt pretty good lying down! Those trains can provide a really good massage.
Departing Flatbush Avenue in April of 2000,
I had a whole IRT redbird to my self...
till the folks at Atlantic Avenue joined in.
It really is a pointless question but I'll answer anyway!!! Over 10 years ago when I was still in the 73rd Pct in Brownsville I was coming back to the precinct from traffic court waiting at Nevins Street for a New Lotts train to Rockaway Avenue. When one came it stayed at Nevins for a while and they then made an announcement that they were taking the train out of service due to a mechanical problem. I was in full uniform and asked the motorman if he was still going to New Lotts, he said yes. I asked if he could drop me off at Rockaway Avenue and he said it was OK. It was probably the only time I ever smoked cigarettes on the subway, the motorman also was smoking.
I ride on empty "D" trains quite frequently as I go to work at 3AM.
I find it has spoiled me completly as when going home at 1230pm I find myself letting a train, where I cannot get a particular favored seat, pass me by and I wait for the next one. I refuse to ride the system at all during rush hour. Talk about spoiled!
Peace,
ANDEE
I was wondering if our exaulted web site host had any numbers regarding the number of registered handles, hits per day and or messages per day.
Well, I don't break it down by day. Last week (Sunday 7/2 3am to Sunday 7/9 3am) statistics:
Subtalk hits: 95,209
Subtalk posts: would have to count by hand
Subtalk handles total: 605
New that week: approximatey 22
Total web pages from nycsubway.org: 238,028
Total images from nycsubway.org: 846,562
"Subtalk posts: would have to count by hand"
My web browser (and I assume most others) displays the URL (I think that's what its called) for each post, including a portion at the end that says, for example, "read=136618." Isn't that a unique sequence ID number assigned to each post as it is placed on the server? As the date and time of posting is displayed for each post in the message index, can't anyone just set up the message index to display the last week chronologically, view the most recent post, noting its sequence number, and then read the post most nearly one week old, noting its sequence number, and subtract the latter number from the former? Or am I missing something?
You're missing the "previews". They are assigned numbers as well but if they aren't ultimately posted, thanks to backing up and making a correction, the number calculated by your method will be somewhat inflated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah. That explains it. I never noticed that the previews were assigned numbers.
Actually, that's sort of true. Your preview will be assigned "######.tmp" and when you finally post it, you get just "######". However if you don't post after you preview I don't think the number gets recycled but I never checked the code to see.
Sure, be my guest. :) The only problem with that is that the software displays messages "posted or changed" and by changed it means a message that has had a followup added. So the number is slightly skewed. I can't even go by the date of the file since that changes when followups are made. I'd have to 'grep' out the posted date and time and count them for a totally accurate count. Or you could set your display time to "One Week" and then count only those posted within the week although there will be more than 7 days represented on the list due to the followups.
-Dave
Subtalk started out as a farus where subfans could ramble on about what they did over the weekend, but I believe that it has grown into much much more. Since the password system was implimented we have all become members of an orginization of sorts. As a de facto .org I think that Subtalk needs to work on being more organized. We should have more field trips, meetings and membership cards. Subtalk could be a transit awreess group promoting transit in gereral. We could issue press releases and try to build some sence of ligitmacy. As an orginized .org Subtalkers could get behind the scnes tours, transit discounts and other perks. Subtalk could also apply political pressure for such things like a 2nd ave. sub or personalized metrocards.
Just a thought.
This idea makes perfect sense and is long overdue. There are more of us than meets the eye and together we can make a difference.
Eric D. Smith
I think that one way to do this is on the 8/27 trip (which so many of us are attending) we'll all wear nametags with the SubTalk logo and "your handle here".
Just like the AOL button three years ago during their national tour.
hey mike... you have some really interesting thoughts
1) we definitely need a spell checker to prevent illllittterates like you from posting spelling errors and incurring the wrath of the spelling police :-)
2) you mentioned building a sense of legitimacy... are you suggesting that some of us are illegitimate?
3) i think the group already has a code word that avid reader suggested... it was something to the effect: what do you think of the price of soybeans?
and the response was : you think?
4) as a group, perhaps we could get some mental health insurance, which is sorely needed here...
5) or perhaps we could design a straight jacket with a subtalk theme
I'm Not sure I want to be part of a group that would have me as a member.
Tom
Plagiarist.
>>> Plagiarist. <<<
One man's plagiarism is another's homage.
Tom
don't blame me for all the spelling mistakes that time. I was forced to use the public PC in the lobby and it had a really bad keyboard. i also had to type standing up. I am baque in the lab now so my typots should go down by aboot 50%.
You sure you guys want to publicize the fact that you know me? Big mistake.
I thought Sub Talk was about Submarine or Submarine Sandwichs, that is why us Middle Age People talk about food so much on this site
See, now heypaul you couldn't leave well enough alone! You may not have said any names in your said post, BUT why do we have to resort to attacking each other on this board, to be perfectly honest with you, enough is enough!
I'm 20 years old, and I'm sure many of you are older than me, But it seems like there is a playground mentality here, wherein, if you have a problem (mental, physical, race, sexuality, etc.) I'm gonna tease you or get you or something.
Really, be adults here. I'm even seeing the younger ones, (ages 13-19) act more mature than some of the adults on this board.
Trevor Logan
trevor... i am curious to see whether other people react as negatively as you have to my remarks...
Don't worry Paul,too often I worry about myself and a lot of other railfans I've known... but I've known very few railfans that lived a life of crime or were irresponsible in life. As I wish I could have told one of my dates several years ago when she said I was eccentric, but my mind is slow : Yes, but there have to be some different people in this world.
Actually I thought the post was typical heypaul flippancy and knew not to take it seriously... I don't think he meant what you might have seen in it, Trevor...
-Dave
Right. If someone finds his brand of humor that annoying, there is always ye olde killfile.
Speaking of killfiles, and with Jersey Mike's recent thread on SubTalk statistics in mind, I have a question: Of the 600+ handles, how many of them are in no one's killfile? How many handles in 10+, 20+, 100+ killfiles?
Killfiles, HA sorry what a joke! I don't mean to down the idea, because it was a great one, I loved it, but It's never worked for me. I killfiled one person and i still see thier post! Plus I'm sorry if I don't see his humor! I just don't see it!
Peace & Blessings
Trevor
You won't see their posts in the master listing but if someone has responded to their posts then they'll appear in threads.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, you won't see the killfiled handle in the Index, but it will appear in the followup "posted by" if it was answered.
It's still a great tool that Dave has given us. Very useful. I make use of it for 3 of our more infamous posters, including subway_crash, who has been permanently barred by the management.
If that's the case, then you probably can't get into the classic "Monty Python" series or enjoy the sick n' twisted comic-strip "Farside".
Look at some of his older posts and you'll see where heypaul is coming from (even though it's usualy a padded cell in Kings County Hospital's G Ward).
Doug aka BMTman
Actually I'm a big fan of Farside!
Trevor
Oh yes and now here's Heypaul with something completely different !
I still want to get him on a haybail and tow him around a field giving him a very RAPID ride while TRANSITing the field.
Mr t__:^)
Frankly, I'm annoyed by this particular brand of self-deprecatory & convoluted humor. It's hardly original or funny for that matter. To be perfectly honest, I'd be happier if this particular person had something 'on-subject' to add to the discussion.
You're right, of course. Humor has no place on this board as it has no place in society at large. We should consider any -- and all attempts at humor -- to be on par with Quality of Life Crimes.
Please feel free to contact the Police at the next available opportunity for a $100 summons (or jail time -- or both) to be levelled against the miscretant!
That ougtta fix those SubTalk comedians! Right On!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I was mearly expressing my opinion about this one person's brand of humor. It was not a general condemnation of all humor so don't twist ny words, if you please. You are free to disagree or not as you see fit. However, if someone does post something humorous, I'll appreciate it for what it is. Unti then, I stand by my opinion - HE AIN'T FUNNY
Killfiles are maintained in your own cookies file on your machine so Dave can't count them. Probably just as well...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think negatively or take it as such, be others might and after my little incident on BT with the sexuality deal, I as a person look at take some of the negative post here a bit on serious side.
Trevor
Heypaul's right about the spelling errors in many posts. Poor spelling and grammar detract from the poster's point. But let's not lose our sense of humor over this board. Transit is a common interest for us all, not our lives. (Heypaul, are the SubTalk-logo'd straitjackets in stock yet??)
dan... the straight jackets, or calming suits, are in stock right now... i have my after dinner jacket on right now... it has a picture of a me with the caption: "what me worry?"
you mentioned the spelling errors... that has been a sore point here on subtalk, and honestly i do not like it when people criticize other people's spelling... i really slammed into jersey mike for the errors in his post as a goof, as he has a wild sense of humor also... because spelling errors are a sensitive issue and can be used to attack, i put a smiling face at the end of my remarks... however, i can see where the intensity of my initial remarks to mike might have been misunderstood... to make up for any pain the remarks may have caused, i have tightened the restraints on my jacket very severely... don't ask how i am able to tighten the restraints with a straight jacket on, as it is a secret...
[don't ask how i am able to tighten the restraints with a straight jacket on, as it is a secret...]
heypaul, don't tell me -- you're related to Harry Houdini???
I, for one, find heypauls posts extremely funny and always on topic. The ability to poke fun at ones self is extremely important, and paul makes this into an art form. I enjoy reading his posts and only wish there were more of them. They certainly beat the hell out of some of the extremely boring, exceedingly long, off topic sports posts that I see here.
Peace,
ANDEE
I second that. And just look at how his post about Sea Beach Fred on the Brighton Express has generated so much conversation.
To many posters have a grossly incorrect opinion of Mr. heypaul.
The truth be known , the man is a very sober, dedicated and advocate to end world suffering. beneath the guise of an illiterate buffon is a persona that needs to be revealed. In the past, his secrect life has been revealed as the sidekick of Doug AKA BMTman. Those rumores and stories are all unverified truths. His ulimate agenda and role is that of Chief investigator for U.N.I.O.N. Underground Nutritional Investigative Officer Non-Combatant.
Papers connecting heypaul to the mayors office for Rat Control in the Metropolitan Area , the subway system in particular were revealed in the " Immigrants Without Status Garment Works Daily".
This Mr. heypaul has taken on the assignment to track and assess the total number of rats trapped and taken for their valuable skins and meat. The hunters of these rodents , are akin to the mountainmen of the 19th century. They are brave, bold, live of the land , and must bargain their goods with the operators of the "newstands" tradingpost the are through out the subway system. These trading post are just a small part of a huge cartel that owns discount stores with various codes in their names. Key words are "JOBS" , "ODD", "National" Close-out" . The products on the hot list are Fur covered woodland figurines, Fur lined gloves, fleece-like pullovers and "imatation" carved ivory figurines. There are edible ,dried jerky and pet foods with unfamiliar brand names. The have been threats to his life when his investigation led to a fastfood chain selling mini-capybara in a varity of south american dishes.
Stand by for more of the secret and dangeroud life of
heypaul U.N.I.O.N. man
avid
heypaul has uncovered a whole network and subculture of these laterday hunters . He has posed as a trackworker, filling greaspots, by hand for hours on end, just to see the tecniques used to trap without injurying the valuable skins. He has learned of the food chain and ecology of the subways. The question of what happens if the rats are over harvested, do the food source of the rats then overrun the system? Some of the hunters with South American backrounds have been warning of an "electric anaconda". This creature , a cross between the electric ell and the anaconda has evloved to resemble a girder, with spots resembling large rivets, it bites with an electric charge to stun its victim, it can cross a live third rail with out shorting the system , and uses heat sensors in its snout to track its food source in the dark. Many lesser investigators have disappeared , the " El condas " are the chief suspects. Some have taken on the coloration and shape of a rusting rail, 39 ft long, but possess lightning speed and super cunning.
heypaul is fearless in his quest and bears the scars to prove it. Don't take my word for it . Ask Doug AKA BMTman, or if you can find him , ask heypaul. He gives a modest first appearance when in disguise, and he is a master of desguise and camoflage. If yor see an absolutely ,everyday , average stranger, its him in disguise. Go right up to the stranger and ask how the investigation is going and does he/her have any pictures or vidios? heypaul will oblige, but be descrete.
avid
avid... agents of the central insecurity agency are at this moment decoding your recent two messages to see if you have compromised heypaul's mission... be warned that heypaul's devil bat and computer virus investigations are top secret projects... discussion of these projects on the subtalk message board might lessen national insecurity...
as for heypaul's chameleon like identity, to establish contact with him remember to ask:
"do you think that avocado and orange are appropriate colors for rapid transit car seats?"
if the response is:
" i prefer battleship gray " then you know that you are speaking with heypaul or one of his high level clones...
if the response is:
" you think? " then you can be pretty sure that you are in contact with avid reader the heypaul demystifier... his identity can be confirmed by seeing if he fails to cast a reflection in a mirror
touche' , I'm going to ground!
Subway newstands are staffed with "Casper Milktoast" agent provocators. One agent/newsstaffer recently revealed in the "Immigrants Without Status Garment Works Daily " that Northern capybars, mini-capybars and East river Capybars are all on the menus through out the Corona/Flushing area. The city administration in charge of agricultureal production hotly disputes alligatios that tie the rat population explosion and the 63rd St. tunnel project.
Summer barbaques and neighborhood block parties have always coincided with sudden drops in underground activity. Pure speculation and fabrication this agent states. He goes further to state that the summer is the best time to buy furlined gloves, prices are low. The woodland creatures with real fur are sure to be potential collectibles that my increase in value. He could not explain how a porcupine had smooth short fur. I can only ask,"What is jerked East Coast Capybars"
avid
I agree. I even think that heypaul should copyright and publish his approximately 1 1/2 years of asinine, inane and most flippant posts from this website as a 2 volume set available at Barnes & Noble bookstores.
I'm sure it'd be a bestseller (at least with SubTalkers)
;-)
Um, in case anybody noticed Heypaul was making fun of me because (due to forces beyond my control) my post had more than the usual spelling errors.
PS: I voulenteer to help with the Membership cards. if someone sends me a neat template I can get a whole bunch laminated and sent to those who give me a SASE.
[I can get a whole bunch laminated and sent to those who give me a SASE.]
Or hand them out at the station at the beginning of the trip.
Well, here's my take on things.
You all can do what you want, of course, but I personally do not have the time to lead or manage an organization with membership, a newsletter, etc. While I think some sort of paper publications based on this site is a really sweet idea you are probably not aware of the time committment you will have to make to get such a project off the ground. I barely have enough time to organize the Anniversary and that's only 2 weeks from now.
There are established organizations that every SubTalk member should be part of, in particular the ERA and its New York Division. I can tell you right now those groups need new blood willing to volunteer and work on their newsletter, trip organization, etc. The NY Division has a monthly newsletter that never fails to arrive on time, a monthly meeting, and occasional fan trips and tours.
If for some reason you're dissatisfied with the ERA starting up a second organization seems like a reasonable idea. But be aware of the costs: time, money, more time, and more money will be needed to float an organization. Sure you can have dues paying members. How many of the 604 SubTalk users do you think will pony up $25 to join your organization? How long do you think it will take them to get pi**ed off when your newsletter is late and poorly done because you don't have enough volunteers or money to print and mail it? (Don't take this personally, I'm using the "royal you" here.)
To address your ideas point by point:
> Since the password system was implimented we have all become
> members of an orginization of sorts. As a de facto .org
De facto yes but I am not willing to share the membership list of this site. (I'm pretty vehemently anti-spam, anti-junk mail, and anti-mailing-list-selling. It's not going to happen here.) If people want to band together in a more cohesive organization they will have to voluntarily join. This is going to cut your membership base down drastically.
> We should have more field trips, meetings and membership cards.
We have "field trips" around four times a year. How many more do you want? Turnout is typically around 10 people. You have to remember that the people here are not all in New York City and the group of people that can attend a field trip is comparitively small. Of course, geographic disparity won't prevent people from joining your organization but for those people you better have a damn good newsletter to make up for the fact that they won't benefit from the organized field trips.
> Subtalk could be a transit awreess group promoting transit
> apply political pressure for such things like a 2nd ave. sub
I'm not willing to use this site to do that. I don't have the time and I am a very non-political person. If you've been around this site long enough I think you'll find that it and I speaking as the webmaster try not to take sides on political issues. Obviously the very fact that this site exists and gets the attention it does is a promotion of transit. I think there are very capable organizations e.g. the Straphanger's Campaign and the Regional Planning Association that can and should be the ones to do this. If you want to get into the lobbyist/advocacy arena I would suggest looking into these two groups. However, those organizations have been around for years and are pretty vocal in the press but we still don't have a 2nd Avenue Subway. What do you think a rag-tag group of railfans (most of whom don't even live in New York City) are going to accomplish? The one rule of politicians in terms of who they listen to is: if you can't vote for me I'm not listening to you.
I probably don't even need to say that without money to start up a lobbying effort you're not going to have much success at this. I suspect you don't even know what it costs to print up brochures in color! (And I can tell you right now money is not exactly pouring into this site and even if it were it would be going to fund the approximately $2000 in commercial site hosting costs that I need to pay to keep a site this size/this busy on the net.)
(Lets not even get into the "put advertising on the site" debate.)
> an orginized .org Subtalkers could get behind the scenes tours,
Do you have contacts for this? If you do you should have spoken up when we were talking about the Anniversary plans. Simply put, we don't have "ins" at enough places to arrange this sort of thing. Yes, there are employees of various transit agencies here but more often than not they do not have the power to initiate such a thing. Obviously there are exceptions here but lets be realistic. Just because you work at a place doesn't mean you can manage to bring a group of 20 uninsured gawkers (some of whom might take a souvenir or two) in to take a look.
> transit discounts and other perks.
> personalized metrocards.
Transit discounts? Do you know any other special-interest groups (besides the usual ones, students, the elderly & disabled, etc. and outside of established programs like TransitChek) that get transit discounts? TransitChek is a boondoggle for small organizations. There is a per-check fee that the sponsoring organization (i.e. your employer) has to pay out. My small consulting company looked into it and it was simply not worth it.
As for personalized Metrocards I suspect all one has to do is contact the advertising agency that handles the Metrocard account and pony up the bucks.
I know this is coming across as a very negative post, as if I believe that a real organization based around this site is impossible. Actually, I kind of do believe that. I don't see people clamoring to fund it monetarily or with their time and those are the #1 and #2 (and #3 and #4) things you need to get such a thing off the ground. (Note: I like the fact that this site is free and advertising-free. I'm not asking anyone to donate anything in order for SubTalk/www.nycsubway.org to remain available. The funding I'm referring to is only to get a more legitimate organization afloat.)
-Dave
For what it is worth, I appreciate this site greatly. And to think we get it absolutely free of cost!
I'm always impressed that people find the time to create these fan-type websites.
So basically, Thank you.
:)
Andrew (MisterK)
That goes doubly for me Dave. In fact, if it came to ponying up $25.00 a year for this privilege, I would do it gladly. This site brings great personal joy to me.
Very good -- and frank -- posting, Dave.
Speaking for alot of us SubTalkers, 'thanks for the clarity'.
Doug aka BMTman
Dave,
I think your answer was terrific and I applaud your candor. Might I add one suggestion? After joining the NYD/ERA, anyone with a few dollars left over should join and then support the Trolley Museum(s) of your choice (many are represented here on this site, and in fact there is a SubTalk Field Trip to one of them this Saturday -- hint, hint). The already-organized Trolley Museums need people, money, and other resources to keep them alive and flourishing. It's very rewarding, and has many benefits, such as being able to actually operate electric traction equipment, and help keep the preservation movement alive.
Agreed most wholeheartedly!
Also closer to home, and more to the point of the original poster's ideas-- join the NY Transit Museum. They are the ones who run most of the behind the scenes tours in New York.
-Dave
That is what I support, Shorline and the Transit Musuem. I can't stretch that money any further and I'm thankful for the "Free" Subtalk on the web and our little "field trips".
Also closer to home ... join the NY Transit Museum.
Dave, I wish I could agree with that, but at the moment I'm not so sure. I am a former member, having allowed my membership to lapse when it ran out around May of '99. Why? Because I was tired of the problems with the tours. On more than one occasion I would call at the exact time that the museum had announced would be the start of reservations for its members, only to find that one or more of the tours were already booked. The last straw was when the Museum cancelled two tours (due to TA policy changes) for which I had paid a total of $90 for tickets but would not refund the money or even allow me to use it as credit toward the next two years' membership (I was in the $50 category). All they would do was issue a credit, good for one year only, toward additional tours - none of which I was interested in taking at that point, since I had already been on them. So, until I have some assurances that I won't be ripped off again, I'll stick to my memberships at Branford, the E.R.A., and the East Penn Traction Club (for you model transit fans).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, everyone's mileage varies of course. I haven't had any significant problems. They did forget to send me membership renewal paperwork last year. They had a huge staff turnover there in the past couple years so I suspect a lot of things fell through the cracks. Still, if you want to go behind the scenes in New York, it's the NYTM and the ERA.
-Dave
They did forget to send me membership renewal paperwork last year.
That was another problem. The only year they remembered mine was last year, when I declined to renew.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NYTM always forgets to send me renewal paperwork. I have to call them to offer to renew. Their turnover has been pretty high lately.
--Mark
Todd, let me proclaim my praise for you and Dave and your well thoughtout positions. Clearly, what we do not need are more ad-hoc committees full of people with good intentions and little else. Over the years, I've met 5 Subtalkers including you and Dave. Obviously, you two and the other 3 have that I've been priviledged to know, have some credibility and comprehension. However, the vast preponderance of subtalkers are mearly rail-fans or buffs with limited vision & lacking the ability to see the entire picture. This is not meant to offend anyone in particular or subtalkers as a group, but I know some will take it as such.
If you listen to WFAN, you'll hear sports fans of the same caliber. They get on and suggest trading Mark McGuire to the Yankees for George Steinbrenner's pet hamster or Samy Sosa to the Mets for a bat-boy. Sports fans love to mentally gratify themselves with proposing such trades. Clearly these are thoughts without significant merit - not even grist fit for the mill. We've seen that same type of thought process here on Subtalk, too, recently. Supposition, inuendo and accusations taking the place of facts. How serious would a subtalk 'committee' be taken as an advocacy group with leadership like that? My suggestions echo yours and Dave's. Join an existing group and bring your energies and talents to them. Strenghen that group and save your creative talants for some place where they will do some good.
> Subtalk could be a transit awreess group promoting transit
> apply political pressure for such things like a 2nd ave. sub
[I'm not willing to use this site to do that. I don't have the time and I am a very non-political person. If you've been around this site
long enough I think you'll find that it and I speaking as the webmaster try not to take sides on political issues. Obviously the very fact that this site exists and gets the attention it does is a promotion of transit. I think there are very capable organizations e.g. the Straphanger's Campaign and the Regional Planning Association that can and should be the ones to do this. If you want to get into
the lobbyist/advocacy arena I would suggest looking into these two groups. However, those organizations have been around for years and are pretty vocal in the press but we still don't have a 2nd Avenue Subway. What do you think a rag-tag group of railfans (most of whom don't even live in New York City) are going to accomplish? The one rule of politicians in terms of who they listen to is: if you can't vote for me I'm not listening to you.]
Politicians will listen to you if you've got money for them, no matter where you live :-)
Seriously, though, I have to share your rather pessimistic view of transit advocacy. Transit in New York is so hopelessly intertwined with other issues that I really don't see how even the strongest pro-transit advocacy can get much accomplished. In particular, the city's absurd levels of Medicaid spending are a huge drain on resources that invariably means less for transit. Pro-transit lobbyists are effectively locked in competition with the far better organized and funded pro-health care lobbyists. About the only recent situation I can recall in which advocacy may have made a difference was with the Franklin Avenue shuttle. Community pressure was at least part of the reason why the line was rebuilt rather than scrapped. But even that's a misleading example, as it involved awkward racial and social class issues.
Mike & Dave's comments were both excellent. This writer needs some time to digest same & read the other replys, but I'll say this Dave does make some very sound counter suggestions for those that realy want to have an impack or just get involved at a higher level. This is not to say that I'm ruling out Mike's suggestion out of hand either.
In every hobby/activity in life there are ways for you to realy make a difference ... all you need is pashion and willingness to make the effort and put up some cash, i.e. joining a organization, etc. Some of us are already doing something to help make a better system or preserve parts of it for future gererations, others could, others did, others can't right now ... BUT we all get a lot out of just being here in one way or another. Thanks Dave for that !
Mr t__:^)
Well my jadded views came from the fact I an currently a college student attending a very activist University. There are dozzens of groups that accomplish a lot with little or no funds and modest outputs of time. I belong to the E3 envrionmental group and we have like 20-50 fairly active people and we get less funding than the fly fishing club, but we have been able to do many things. Sub Talk has 600 possible people and with a very small effort from most of them we can do a lot to either promote transit or promote our own railfan experiance.
Ok, you seem to be thinking a step or two above whaI had in mind. First we wouldn't need a news letter because the Mb is like a perpetual newsletter. However people could be encouraged to write a column (something like Heypaul's Attic or The Coney Island Report) and these columns could like have their own page accessable from subtalk. When I sugested Subtalk as a transit awareness group I meant exactly that. Not an advocacy group like the straphangers, but something what would try to make ppl aware of mass transit alternatives or transit safety. I realize that there are too many views on this board to take stands on issues, but I think we could all agree about promoting transit in general. When I mentioned lobbying I was thinking about letter writing/e-mail/phone campaigns when transit issues are up for a vote. I know that using the internet and local media outlets (like community newspapers or cable access TV) groups can spread information for little or no cost. I noticed that he have a lot of people here and we have a lot of good ideas. If we could focus our mental power and use it for the befinit of transit in general we could build the Sub Talk name into something. This would mean the next time you (exaulted leader Dave) are making mpegs with your scnazzy little camera and some nosey track worker asks who you are the Sub Talk or nycsubway.org name will carry some weight.
Mike;
What you are proposing really doen't belong on Subtalk, but on some new area of the NYCSubway site. And of course it is Dave's site, so it is him you will have to convince.
Tom
Got invited to a meeting a 130 Livingston Plaza Thursday so will try to catch the Southbound 8:49 R-142 at 42nd Street or Northbound 1:42 at Brooklyn Bridge, then take one of our coaches to complete the trip back to College Point ... wish me luck.
BTW, my boss offered the use of one of the company jeeps, I declined. Only a true railfan would have done that !
Mr t__:^)
(BTW, my boss offered the use of one of the company jeeps, I declined. Only a true railfan would have done that !)
Or someone who is traveling to Downtown Brooklyn or Manhattan who is required to pay for his own parking.
Hey, Thurston... are you buying me lunch tomorrow @ Gage & Tollner's?
I have a BIG appetite, ya know!
Doug aka BMTman
Well there is a petty cash limit. I've heard them mention General Grant's name. I have made reservations for two at the Orange Room ... we had a thread about that place that I think is still going on.
Mr t__:^)
You please me to no end. My biggest pet peeves are those who could ride transit free on a pass [employees, I'll make an exception for those whose commute would be too long by train or bus] and still drive, and my cowtown neighbors who won't walk 3 blocks, and drive. I don't think it would change if gas were $5-6 a gallon. I'm not a tree- hugger but we could all chip in a little for green earth.????
Two pictures: the ten years deceased neighbor who used to fire up the Ford pu w/camper shell to drive two blocks to buy cigarettes, and BART which has a fleet of diesel trucks to do money/change/ticket work at stations(the train system is NOT credible?). Of course if they had to use the trains, then the elevators to fare control levels would HAVE to be serviceable more of the time.
While under ground I'll be using a FUN PASS, the only way to travle to a meeting, which I once turned in with a petty cash slip just as a joke. Above ground I'll get to see how our drivers are doing and the view from the Queensboro bridge outbound & LIE on the the way in aren't half bad either.
The story I like to tell is one time I was a little late for a meeting at South Ferry. I excused myself by saying that I was delayed waitng for a slant 40 ... nobody knew what I was talking about AND this was a transportation meeting ... well the TA guys should have known, but my fellow "private" bus guys have an excuse I guess.
Mr t__:^)
As long as you're not using the jeep, could I borrow it?
My adventure started at 8:30 AM when one of Orion CNGs, #417, pulled up. A little hazy on the way in so I digested three trade mags. AC was realy cranking it out. Was also interesting to find a local ver. on our express run.
At 6th Ave I was going to walk to Lex for a R-142 or Red Bird but I only had a 1/2 hour to make my meeting so I caught a F/Rino/R-46. Along the way a Hippo caught up with us on the express track. The next few stations both had to stop at so it was a kind of race. The Hippo operator was a little faster, but the Rino Conductor was faster, so we stayed neck and neck until we parted (bridge vs. tunnel). The Rino got me to 130 Livingston right on time for my meeting.
Did my lunch hour at Museum & at Golden Arches with Doug as my reservations at the Orange room got canceled. Was my first time seeing the cars downstairs.
BTW, anyone going on the third D-type trip know that Mark is mailing the tickets now.
Caught a #4 R-62/Kawaski to 14th, then a L/R-38 to the farebox/turnstile vendors office.
Caught a Slant 40 back to Union Sq. As we were ready to leave the operator gave the handle to a suit. I won't comment on the details any further as another TA suit or TWU shop steward maybe lurking here. I will say this, the fill in did every thing right so he must have been a former or off duty operator.
At Union Sq. I met a SubTalker/MC Collector. Gave him 8 got back 5 that I'm very happy with.
Caught a #6 R-62/Bombardier up to 59th where I walked back to 57th & 3rd. Shortly one of our old standbys a MCI, #941, pulled up. The AC was working just fine on this old girl too, and except for our taking the lower deck of the 59th bridge (the view is better over the upper) it was a nice ride to College Point. Also got a chance to write up the minutes of my meeting to give my suits a full report (not of the trip though).
My day ended with a 20 mile ride home with the top down.
Mr t__:^)
Do R-38's normally run on the L? I thought the BMT Eastern Division was all R-40/R-40M/R-42. What was an R-38 doing there?
...with the top down.
On what?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
on a couple of occasions i think i have seen people say that some cars in the r1/9 series came equipped with headlights... in an e-mail from big ed, he confirmed that they definitely did not... he thought that the r-22's were the first cars delivered with headlights... which would mean that the r-10's in the late 40's were also not equipped... this kind of confirms my recollection of seeing the first headlight on the r27's on the bmt... the headlights that were on the r1/9's were put on in the 60's...
if you disagree with this, flame big ed... i am in a much too fragile mental state to take criticism...
Heypaul, didn't the R1-9's come with turn-signal indicators???
(since you're in a quite vunerable state right now, I thought I'd throw that question to you....heh, heh, heh.)
:-)
very funny doug... no they did not come with turn signals... that's why the motorman's cab had a drop window, so he could stick his arm out to signal turns and stops....
Great comeback, Paul!!! :-)
Yeah, turn your signals from route markers and white "deck" lights at the bottom to all red when you got the end of the run and that would be the rear of the train. I had to get that one in. See ya later.
The IND South Brooklyn Line (also known to some as the IND Smith Street Line) was linked up to the Culver El at Cortelyou Road on October 30th, 1954. The R1/9s, until this time, spent most of their lives underground. It wasn't until this connection was made that these cars were retrofitted with windshield wipers!
--Mark
Indeed. And one car missed the retrofit until l969 or l970. I was working the M line and reported to Train Disp. Alfred Tosi at Metropolitan that the head car had no wiper; no, not vandalised; had no trace of an operating handle, no hole for same, nothing. It was he who advised me of the fact that they were retrofitted when the IND finally came outdoors. [Did it ever rain around Smith/9th?] Just in case anyone's interested and doesn't know, the first cars with power wipers were the R38's.
I also recall in the early 1960s the remaining standards being equipped with headlights. Triplexes never got headlights when they were in revenue service.
-- Ed Sachs
No criticism coming your way, Paul.
What you posted was true -- none of the cars delivered until the R22's had the sealed-beam headlights. Photos exist of some R21's in Greller's book, with NO sealed-beams -- they were retrofitted as was all the other R-types.
However, not all the R-1/9's got the retrofit. I remember a few of them still running in the late 1960's with no bright headlights; only the "deck lights" (as somone else referred to them) which were white when going forward and red when on the trailing end of a train.
Which brings up the obvious question: Why did it take 50 years for the NY Subway to get some kind of headlights?? Didn't the H&M have a foward light from the start? Or just [in the beginning] the Newark-Hudson Terminal trains that had to run over part of the PRR Main??
The tight-fistedness of the NYCTA, prehaps?
>>> Why did it take 50 years for the NY Subway to get some kind of headlights?? <<<
Lou;
This is just a guess, but probably because the system is closed ROW it was not believed that there should be anything on the track that it would be necessary to have a headlamp for when the original subway cars were designed. And the state of the art headlamps in 1904 wasn't that great. I know that I spent many hours at the railfan window of the original cars and never thought a headlight was necessary as long as track crews carried lanterns.
The addition of headlamps was probably because of the perception of liability if a trespasser on the ROW was struck, and his survivors claimed he might not have been struck if the T/O had seen him a few seconds earlier. An example of the increase in safety standards through litigation.
The original el cars did have the big headlight on them, probably from the tradition of being a steam railway prior to electrification.
Tom
The original el cars did have the big headlight on them, probably from the tradition of being a steam
railway prior to electrification.
Some of the el cars did. They appear to have been the same type
of "golden glow" lights that were used on trolley cars. Remember,
at least on the Brooklyn el system, on many routes the cars ran
on the street. If you look at pictures of BU cars before the 1920s,
you'll see a little bracket just forward of the trolley hook, and
sometimes the headlight is mounted there. After street running
went away in the 20s, those BU cars were up on the El without
anything except marker lights!
In the subway tunnels, lanterns (on the IRT) or the white running
lights on the BMT and IND, were just dandy!
The Manhattan el cars had a headlight as has been mentioned but it didn't do much except look nice. If I recall it was only a regular light bulb in series with markers and other lights; somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. The headlight remained thru their entire careers.
The old SIRT cars had headlights (single, cyclops-type mounted above the storm door). The SIRT cars which were transferred to the BMT in the 1950s had theirs removed.
-- Ed Sachs
Of course. It's an reportable ICC-FRA carrier.
Chicago's 6000-series L cars had a single headlight above the storm door - at least the ones built from recycled Green Hornet parts. The early ones had dual headlights.
It took 50 years forthem to install headlights.
It took about 30 years to install windshield wipers on the original IND cars.
It took them 60 years to install car washers!!!
The R-1 & R-4, according to all documentation available never had windshield wipers or headlights installed. However, the R-6 was delivered with windhield wipers. In addition, beginning in 1962, headlights were installed on all cars, R-6 and up that were delivered without them.
I also remember riding on few trains of R-1/9s with no headlights. Usually, they would be A or D trains, as they seemed to run R-4s and whatever R-1s were left. That was a real treat, especially the CPW express dash. With only the tunnel lights for illumination, the I-beams became silhouettes, and it was difficult to see the rails.
Such rides were few and far between. I didn't ride on all that many R-1/9 trains on the IND to begin with; in fact, I rode on them on the LL more times than all of my IND rides combined. Most of my IND rides in the late 60s were on A and D trains of R-10s and R-32s respectively.
How did they read turnout points with no headlights? Wasw tunnel illumination increased around switches?
They probably had to rely on the interlocking signal aspects.
Precisely. On any railroad equipped with block signalling and interlockings or CTC systems you know your lineup by the signal aspect... in some cases a mile away. The only time you need to read the "iron" is if you get authorized for a restricted speed move, by "call on" signal on the NYCT for one; or verbal permission to pass, etc. Let me verify the mile away thing, sometimes you can see the governing signal that far away.
I rode the Uptown 6 R142 which was scheduled to stop at Bleeker St. at 11:30 AM (and it did) today. The digital signs were indicating the next and current stops correctly at the exact right times. But the automated announcements were turned off. Instead the conductor made the announcements which as usually were difficult to hear and understand. Otherwise the trains were wonderful.
I said that 6:45 earlier today that they were not working. I guess this means the 30 day clock starts again !!
No. For that? As long as the cars can actually turn their wheels without being taken out of service, then they will pass the 30 Day Test. The worst thing that can happen is the TA opts out of using automated announcements, and go back to the conductor making all the usual speeches. Perhaps the automated announcements are more trouble than they're worth....
-Stef
I doubt that will happen either. I believe automated announcements are part of the ADA, plus there have been so many complaints that conductors mumble (of course not the fine conductors here on subtalk) that they prefer automated announcements for the clarity. -Nick
They were working fine this afternoon, though Pelham 2:52 had a few minor problems (strip maps not updating). I also saw people from the company that is responsible for the feature testing the internal and external speaker volume. The female person in the group complained the conductors kept cutting off the last stop announcement, apparently her favorite.
Again, I must emphasize that the TA may request changes be made to how the cars function. As long as the cars in question can roll flawlessly, any other functions, whether it be an electronic strip map, or automated announcements, the TA has a right to make revisions or drop something completely. For example, the TA may tell Kawasaki to stop using the electronic strip map. Kawasaki will comply because the TA is paying the $. Whatever works is fine, just as long as the cars are not lemons.
-Stef
No, then what is the point of getting new subway cars if one of the features to replace the redbirds aren't working?
--Clayton Parker--
The point is that the Redbirds' bodies are in poor condition. Mechanically, they're fine.
David
Not fine, just adequate. The main problem with them remains the bodies and frames. The feature bugs can be worked out, in time.
-Hank
The point is, they (R-142s) have to be able to transport passengers across the system. Regardless of what happens, the cars are here to stay, because they will serve their purpose and start replacing the old cars.
-Stef
Just like the new LIRR trains.
I think those require a bit of human interaction. I've seen and heard the signs cycle through all the stops we skipped on the Pt. Jefferson line, before getting to the one we were approaching.
-Hank
well last nite I had another geat transit dream. This one mainly involved PATCO. I was walking with some friends near the PATCo tracks somewhere beyond by usual station. the tracks were not fenced and there were hundreds of chineese labourers digging away at some mountain (possibly for a PATCO extention). Well we walked along the tracks and somehow got on a train. Well instead of running on the surface like is does in the suburbs, it went underground. The tunnles were lit with a red glow and there were many twisty curves. all the stations were the same, but they were underground. After we passed Woodcrest we entered this giant underground cavern. It was lit up by what I assumes was lava and there were many other tracks all crossing the cavern on little tressles. As we roared along the red tunnles I noticed what looked mine spurs going off into darkened side tunnles. Some old guy in the train remarked how going too deep in a subway could be harmful, but at that moment the train began to climb like a 10% grade. the driver was in our car and I watched the cab signals for a while. i then noticed that this was not the lead car and I went past the driver, through the strom door, and into a darkened car which was the true lead car. at that point the driver started yelling at me saying how that car was dead and OofS and how it was hard enough driving the train from the 2nd car w/o having to yell at me. Well we got to the end of the line and the train began to slow, stopping w/in inches of the bumping post. They turned the lights on the the dead car and I sat in the wodniw nafliar. the train went back along the line through the red tunnles. Then as we were passing through the large cavern I was sucked out of the train and fell several hundred feet, landing in another PATCo train n a lower level. I was pissed because i did not land in the other trains' wodniw nafliar. Well somehow the train dropped me off outside and by this tme it was dark. I walked home along the tracks. i passed an interlocking. Not only did it have the usual us&S subway signals, but also B&O position light dwarf signals and a signal bridge. I the sun was comming up when i walked back past the labourers and then i woke up.
If it was not already posted, a new card is out for Lincoln Center Festival/ Mostly Mozart festival. Nice card with both ads on the back. Quite colorful. Found at Bowling Green Stn.
Joe
07/12/2000
[If it was not already posted, a new card is out for Lincoln Center Festival/ Mostly Mozart festival. Nice card with both ads on the back. Quite colorful. Found at Bowling Green Stn.]
The best part is they are available through the MVM's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Here is a baffler for some of you street-name historians: what is the story behind the road that was once called "Peartree Avenue"?
"Peartree Avenue" is the name that most maps apply to the north-south road which lies just west of Flushing Meadow Park between the LIE and Union Tpke. (actually between the LIE and 78th Crescent, one block north of Union).
However, if you go there, you will see that this road is just the service road for the Grand Central Pkwy., and is signed simply as "Grand Central Parkway" for its entire length.
The various maps label this road slightly differently -- Hagstrom calls it "112th St." from the LIE down to 67th Ave.; "Peartree Ave." from that point down to 76th Rd.; and then "113th Pl." for the final 3 blocks.
VanDam and the online service MapBlast have it as "112th St." from the LIE down to 67th Ave. (like Hagstrom), but then "Peartree Ave." the rest of the way.
Only the online service MapQuest has it correctly listed as "Grand Central Parkway" the whole way.
See MapBlast and MapQuest maps below:
MapBlast
MapQuest
(By the way, also note MapBlast's errors regarding Willow Lake: 1) it is identified as "Meadow Lake", which actually lies to the north of Willow Lake; and 2) it is shown as though it extends all the way to the GCP, when it reality it is just a rather small lake in the center of some grassland.)
The change in this road's name raises all sorts of questions:
How long ago was this road actually called "Peartree Avenue" before the change was made to "Grand Central Parkway"? I would guess that this was a while back, because there are serveral buildings along this road which have their addresses posted on signs, and all of these signs say "Grand Central Parkway" or "GCP". Examples can be found on the awnings of apartment buildings, and on the sign in front of a nursing home located just south of Jewel Avenue which reads "69-70 Grand Central Parkway".
Back when it was called "Peartree Avenue" (whenever that was), what were the addresses on this road? They couldn't have been the same as they are now (62-xx thru 78-xx), because the current addresses are relative to the "Avenues"; and Peartree, as an "Avenue" itself, would have to have had addresses relative to the "Streets", maybe something like 110-xx to 113-xx.
The fact that the road is now called "Grand Central Parkway" sets up an address anomaly: here the name "Grand Central Parkway" is applied to a north-south road with addresses relative to the "Avenues" (62-xx thru 78-xx). But, because the Parkway itself has a large curve in it, the name "Grand Central Parkway" is applied elsewhere in Queens to an east-west road, with addresses relative to the "Streets". For example, the addresses on "Grand Central Parkway" start at Main Street with 142-xx, and increase along with the "Street" numbers as you go eastward. So, the question is -- is "Grand Central Parkway" the only example in Queens of the exact same street name being used both for a north-south and an east-west road?
Ferdinand Cesarano
Ferdinand,
Grand Central Pkwy is one of those rare streets that runs both N/S and E/W, depending where you are. This is apparently OK, as long as the various number ranges do not conflict!
Beginning at the Triborough Bridge, Grand Central Pkwy is bordered by Hoyt Av N/S, then by Astoria Blvd N/S. This is followed by approximately 79-00 to 82-00 (east), and is then taken over by Ditmars Blvd. Then 114th St runs alongside, followed by 112th St or Peartree Av or 113th Pl. The total of these ranges is 33-00 to 78-00+ (south). The remainder of the parkway begins with about 138-00 (east). You can see that the ranges just barely fall short of conflicting. But they are unique, so that the area you specify may well be marked Grand Central Pkwy.
For similar tomfoolery, check out Francis Lewis Blvd, which also alternates east and south numbers along its run. Also the two Atlantic Avs in Brooklyn, and the two West 9th Sts in that borough. No address conflicts on either one.
Bob Sklar - recently finished doing quality control/assurance work on NYC's new base map.
Probably the strangest street numbering job in Queens is on a little one-block street in Glendale called Willow Street. (It is the last in a series of alphabetical streets that begins in Forest Hills at Austin Street)
Willow St. has BOTH Queens' new numbering system that came after the streets were numbered (70-XX) that run west to east, and the old system, before the renumbering, that run east to west! And, that ain't all. The addresses are all mixed up, confusing visitors even further...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Last time I looked Queens Blvd wasn't exactly a straight line either.
BTW: Does anyone know when the GCP was built?
I'm not sure when the GCP was built, but I believe it was one of Robert Moses' productions, probably dating from the 30's or 40's. I believe it appears on a 1936 Shell map which I have at home. This map also includes the Queens portion of the Motor Pkwy, removed from the 1939 map.
Queens Blvd. does turn south towards the eastern end, but it still numbers east, reaching approximately 140-XX at the end. One other street using both north and east numbering comes to mind - Bruckner Blvd. in the Bronx. Believe it or not, the entire borough of the Bronx has a constant house-numbering grid. East Tremont Av also turns south but continues to number east. Brooklyn streets south of the line containing 36th St and Church Av (approximate description) are also logically numbered. Staten Island has no system whatsoever.
Bob Sklar
Never heard of the Motor Pkwy. Where did it start and end?
Check out Kevin Walsh's Forgotten New York site - he has a section there on it which got some discussion in a thread about three months back - lots of good pics.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In addition, check out nycroads.com for a more detailed history of the parkway itself. Pictures and maps are also available at the Hempstead Plains site.
The Motor Parkway once stretched from Queens to Ronkonkoma, NY. Nowadays only the eastern 10 or 15 miles are in use. It is now Suffolk County Road 67, variantly called Vanderbuilt Parkway, Vanderbuilt Motor Parkway, or just Motor Parkway depending on whether you are in the Towns of Huntington, Smithtown, or Islip (repectively.) The Motor Pkwy section even has an exit off the LIE/I-495--Exit 55, CR 67/Motor Pkwy-Centeral Islip.
[The Motor Parkway once stretched from Queens to Ronkonkoma, NY. Nowadays only the eastern 10 or 15 miles are in use. It is now Suffolk County Road 67, variantly called Vanderbuilt Parkway, Vanderbuilt Motor Parkway, or just Motor Parkway depending on whether you are in the Towns of Huntington, Smithtown, or Islip (repectively.) The Motor Pkwy section even has an exit off the LIE/I-495--Exit 55, CR 67/Motor Pkwy-Central Islip.]
Other than its somewhat meandering route, there's no longer anything about Suffolk's Motor Parkway to hint at its origins. It's too bad that a short original stretch wasn't preserved.
The Long Islang Motor Parkway in Queens is now a great bike route. It goes from Kissena Park, through Cunningham Park, to Alley Pond Park. The disparate segments, which had been left unmaintained and overgrown for years, were only recently re-connected. The new route is in some places slightly off of the path of the original parkway, but it is pretty close.
Here are a couple of Long Island Motor Parkway sites which Anon and Pigs have already mentioned. But, since the header has changed, I thought they should be mentioned again.
from Kevin Walsh's "Forgotten New York"
from NYCRoads.com
By the way, there is a link to Kevin's page at the bottom of the NYCRoads page, but it seems to have been mistyped, so it doesn't work.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The part that goes through Cunningham Park - how does it cross the Clearview? And are they using the same metal bridge over Francis Lewis Blvd? The part at 209th/Oceania Street did they change anything there?
I don't have a bike and I live out in Suffolk now
thanks in advance
Wayne
There are overpasses to the old motor Pkway (which is now a jogging & bike path) on both Springfield Blvd and Bell Blvd just N/O Union Turnpike. One of those overpasses (I can't remember which one but I think its Bell) even has the remnants of an entrance ramp. I used to drive that stretch regularly in a radio car when I worked in that area. It was a great way to avoid traffic when on an emergency call.
Kind of like the street in New Jersey where I live... my house is #18, but #14 is across the street and #9 is next door, then #5, and then #30.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kevin,
I think that is Walnut Street, not Willow Street.
Ferdinand Cesarano
>>>I think that is Walnut Street, not Willow Street. <<<
Ach! Gotta not do this late at night any more...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Merrick Boulevard curves and changes from a north-south address orientation to east-west somewhere around Farmers Boulevard.
The Cross Island service road has E-W addresses in Whitestone and N-S at the other end in Cambria Heights to reflect the direction of the road.
By and large, Avenue, Roads and Drives in Queens run E-W, while Streets, Places and Lanes run N-S. This generally holds true even in neighborhoods with many named streets running in irregular patterns, such as Corona, Ozone Park, Springfield Gardens, Rosedale and Little Neck and Maspeth.
Boulevards, Parkways, and the enigmatic Crescents, Courts and Terraces can swing either way. This configuation also holds sway in most of the Rockaways, although in the irregular patterns of Far Rockaway, anything goes.
In (wealthy) neighborhoods that have shunned the dedicated street and address numbering system, there are no rules. This applies to Forest Hills Gardens, Malba and Douglaston Manor.
There are exceptions: Ridgewood continues the same street names in Queens as in Brooklyn, and even Brooklyn's address pattern for a few blocks. After a bunch of streets change direction from northeast-southwest to east-west, they keep their names. Gates AVENUE parallels Linden, Grove and Woodbine STREETs, among others. Not only that, but Forest AVENUE and Fresh Pond ROAD run due north-south with the appropriate address system.
Abingdon, Beverly and Cuthbert ROADS in Kew Gardens have address numbers oriented N-S. The nearby Park LANE South runs E-W.
Dry Harbor ROAD in Middle Village runs N-S.
A short portion of Woodside AVENUE is oriented N-S before it curves into the customary E-W.
I remember some 1950s Hagstrom subway maps that showed Lefferts AVENUE and Ditmars AVENUE, no doubt holdovers from the street types they were when the Fulton and Astoria els were built. Ditmars could STILL be an Avenue due to its E-W direction, but sometime in the thirties, the City must have decided that both streets deserved Boulevard billing. Lefferts would have had to be a Street if it wasn't 'promoted'.
Mill Basin actually has a few east numbered Places in the positions where their parent Streets would be. The presence of 56th DRIVE makes no sense at all.
In Bath Beach, you'll find 17th Court, 19th Lane, and 20th and 21st Drives and Lanes running in short stubs off their parent Avenues.
Carroll Gardens has a few numbered Places running as westerly continuations (Smith Street being the dividing line) of their parent Streets.
On a completely irrelevant note, I once passed a Lois Lane up in Monsey, Rockland County. Couldn't stop chuckling.
[On a completely irrelevant note, I once passed a Lois Lane up in Monsey, Rockland County. Couldn't stop chuckling.]
How 'bout Tennis Court in Brooklyn. I thought someone was pulling my leg when I got a fare there years ago when I was still hacking, but there it was, in my Hagstroms then in person!!!
By the way, another interesting street is 246 Crescent in Little Neck. It is a horseshoe shaped street that both begins and ends at 57th Avenue. So there are 2 intersections of 57 Av and 246 Cres. When I worked in that area before I made Sgt if we got a job there we had to check both intersections!!
Another interesting street (though not in the city) is Duckpond Road in the Levitt section of Wantagh. It curves so much it crosses itself. Yup, there's actually an intersection of Duckpond Rd & Duckpond Rd!!! Who said Levitt didn't have a sense of humor?
"Another interesting street (though not in the city) is Duckpond Road in the Levitt section of Wantagh. It curves so much it crosses itself. Yup, there's actually an intersection of Duckpond Rd & Duckpond Rd!!!"
The City's answer to this would be the fabulous corner of 186th Lane & 186th Lane in Fresh Meadows! This is located just west of 188th Street, and just south of 64th Avenue.
Ferdinand Cesarano
In suburban housing subdivisions there are often streets that intersect themselves.
I kind of like the way West 4th Street intersects West 12th Street in Manhattan. (And don't get that confused with Little West 12th Street!)
I grew up near Tennis Court in Brooklyn. It is opposite a private country club with tennis courts. Strangely, I never realized the pun until I was in college. I don't know if seeing it from my earliest years made me oblivious to the joke, or I was merely pun-impaired.
There is a Tennis Court (actually, two of them) in Franklin Square, one is off Court House Road and the other is off a nearby side street.
Tennis Court in Brooklyn is not far from the church where I was baptized - St. Paul's by the "D" train.
wayne
Well, there's a Skunk's Misery Road in Lattingtown (near Glen Cove).
Gotta do a page on unusual road names in NYC like Featherbed Lane, Fingerboard Road, the unpronounceable Fteley Avenue and Bang Terrace.
Also planning a page on whole neighborhoods dedicated to mayors, astronauts and prohibitionists...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey Kevin: Does Marx Place still exist up in Harlem? Just curious thought you might know....
>>>Hey Kevin: Does Marx Place still exist up in Harlem? Just curious thought you might know.... <<<
Don't know. It's not on my list...
www.forgotten-ny.com
There's also a Tennis Ct. in Plainview, NY, off Haypath Road.
All over Queens there are situations where streets (or places) intersect streets (or places). And in Fresh Meadows (where all bets are off) 193rd La. curves, stays east-west for a long block (at least 2 short blocks) amd end at 195th La. I have no idea why it dosen't become 68th Av
[There's also a Tennis Ct. in Plainview, NY, off Haypath Road.]
Heading out to Suffolk County, there's a "Bicycle Path" in Farmingville which, despite its name, is a regular road for motor vehicles.
Thanks a lot to Mr. Fein and Mr. Sklar for their informative answers. I love this sort of stuff. I sure would like to have lunch with you guys once -- I'd have a million questions!
Mr. Fein wrote:
"I once passed a Lois Lane up in Monsey, Rockland County."
There are also "Lois Lanes" in Farmingdale (on the Nassau side) and in Bethpage. On top of this, Bethpage also boasts (?) a "Frankie Lane", notwithstanding the fact that the actual singer spelled it "Layne".
Ferdinand Cesarano
Ferdinand,
Didn't he spell his name Frankie Laine?
Oops! Indeed he did spell it "Laine". Thanks for the correction, Karl.
Maybe I was thinking of Bobby Layne.
Ferdinand Cesarano
There's a Lois Lane up in Ithaca.
There is a "Street Road" in Philadelphia and and "Avenue Road" in Toronto, not to mention "Dark Alley" in Baltimore and "13 1/2 Street" in Washington, DC, near the White House (about 2 1/2 blocks from the south side of it). Baltimore also has E. West St. and W. West St., N. East Avenue and S. East Avenue, W. North Avenue and E. North Avenue, and plain old South St.
The alley I parked my car in last year shows up on the online maps as Sassafrass Alley. (It shows it continuing across the street through a building -- although, granted, the building is only a few years old.) There are no street signs with that name, and the vast majority of alleys in Champaign-Urbana (of which there are many, typically one east-west alley between any two east-west streets) aren't named. One notable exception is Western Avenue in Urbana, which despite the name is an alley about two blocks long, although was longer before UIUC put a few buildings and parking lots in its path -- and which serves as the north-south divider in Urbana. (Why the divider isn't at Springfield Avenue, which is a very short block to the north and is a major street, is beyond me.)
ObTrains: On Mathews Avenue around where Western would be if the University hadn't gotten rid of it, there were 1.5 tracks poking through the pavement. Unfortunately, a large chunk of Mathews, including this bit, was torn up last summer (and still is torn up, although it looks like they're slowly but surely sealing up the hole) for underground utility work, so I'm sure they're gone by now.
Well, Chicago has N. and S. Western Avenue and W. North Avenue. And, on the Far Northwest Side, there's a Memory Lane.
Monmouth Junction has Old New Road. When the PRR removed grade crossings on the corridor in anticipation of high speed Metroliners, the alignment of New Road was altered to take it over the railroad on a bridge; the old alignment was retained as a short dead end street, hence its silly name.
Bob
Levttown has an Abbey Lane and on it is the Abbey Lane School.
Levittown has an Abbey Lane and on it is the Abbey Lane School.]
They also had a Penny Lane, but now it's in my eyes and in my ear :-)
>>>They also had a Penny Lane, but now it's in my eyes and in my ear :-) <<<
A new housing section in Staten Island in Eltingville contains Abbey Road and Lennon Court. Don't know if it's been built yet...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Here in Orange County we have '6 1/2 Station Rd.' [its the name of the road..NOT an address!], and I personaly live about 5 houses down form a street called, 'Short St', which is,[obvioously] very short....Of course, also here in Middletown we have both 'Prospect St' AND 'Prospect AVE', which are nowhere near each other....
There's an Upper 27 Knolls Road in rural Ulster County, NY, and there's an Old 76 Road (but no New 76 Road) in rural Tompkins County, NY.
Mill Basin actually has a few east numbered Places in the positions where their parent Streets would be. The presence of 56th DRIVE makes no sense at all.
56th Drive replaces East 56th Street. It also numbers Strickland Avenue north of it's intersection with it.
East 53rd Place replaces East 53rd Street between Avenue T and U. This is because all of the streets angle, however East 53rd Street maintains it's course and ends at Flatbush.
>>>East 53rd Place replaces East 53rd Street between Avenue T and U. This is because all of
the streets angle, however East 53rd Street maintains it's course and ends at Flatbush. <<<
East 53rd Street between Avenue T and Flatbush Avenue used to be called Amersfort Avenue. It was renamed in the early 70s, late 60s perhaps, probably to differentiate it from Amersfort Place, which is near Brooklyn College. Then they renamed East 53rd Street between T and U as East 53rd Place. Kinda confusing eh?
Amersfort Place itself is a remnant of the original path of Flatbush Avenue; it shows up on older maps as Old Flatbush Turnpike, recalling the days when it was a toll road.
www.forgotten-ny.com
When do you expect to put up the Brooklyn Necrology? I can't wait.
And will that be the whole borough?
>>>When do you expect to put up the Brooklyn Necrology? I can't wait.
And will that be the whole borough? <<<
Except for the downtown area, Brooklyn is pretty much as it was in 1900, surprisingly enough! So I'll be concentraing on downtown, although there are acupla streets in Williamsburgh, Bremen St and Hamburg Avenue, renamed during WWI.
If you want to go back before 1900, when it's harder for me to find info (particularly with the closing of the Brooklyn Historical Society till who knows when) you find Hunterfly Road and Old Flatbush Turnpike and East Clarkson Street, among others. Neighborhoods like Bay Ridge and Blythebourne were separate towns, with names, not numbers. (The irregular semi-grid pattern in Bay Ridge suggests this even today).
There's also a vanished section in East New York called Pigtown, in which you found Earl Street, Furnald Street and Tapscott Avenue. Info on this area is horrendously hard to find.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'd guess it was one of the streets that changed names around
the 1939-40 World's Fair. I certainly don't remember ever seeing
or hearing of Peartree Avenue in the past 25 years.
Speaking of the World's Fair, I just got a nice map of Flushing Meadow Park from the Parks Dept. This map shows the surrounding streets, and it labels the road in question "Peartree Avenue." (The map is new, by the way -- copyright 2000.)
So, whenever it changed, no one told the Parks Dept.
Ferdinand Cesarano
It is only with the blessings of our host Dave, as long as the privilege isn't abused, (last week) that I make this offer. My publication "They Moved The Millions" has been reprinted late l996, once too often I guess but I feel somebody out there must want a copy.I'm making a half price offer for Subtalkers. If interested send me an e-mail. Thank you.
Hey, so your Ed Davis ... read your book many times ... great stuff!
--Mark
Thank you. It was a labor of love.
There were two checks in the mail (Doug & I) before you made this post. Such a deal you can't beet with a stick. I'm looking forward to receiving mine.
Just another example of why this is such a great site ! Thanks Dave.
Mr t__:^)
I fully understand the frustrations of the Flushing Line riders not getting new cars to ride in. But how about in 1963 -1964 when the main line riders got all of the #7's hand-me-downs? I rode the #1 line back then, & before the influx to the main line of the horrible R12's, R14's with those little fans which did nothing & the slippery cane seats. The R15 was a bit better. Same seats but big fans. The #1 had R29's & R33's back in 1962 & 1963. What a let down to get so many cars that were 12 to 15 years old.(Just like the R62A's are now). What about some cars on the 2,4,& 5 in that time period? They still had some Low V's. Where did the R29's & R33's go to? The # 7 temorarily. When they came back to the main line, most went to the #4 & 6, leaving the #1 line with too many R12,R14,R15,R21 & R22 back in 1965-1985, prior to the R62A's.
In 1985 to the present, what about the #2 & 5 riders? They got all the hand-me-downs from other lines. 1962 was the #1's turn.(Short lived) 1964 was the #7's turn. 1984 was the #4's turn. 1985-88 was the #1,#3,#6's turn. Now 2000-2001 will be the #2,#6,#5 lines turn. What I am tring to say, is #7 riders: your turn will come again. Be happy will the air conditioned rust-birds with the rail-fan window. At least you did not have to put up with little to no air movement in the summertime from the cars you gave the main line people almost 40 years ago.
The number 7 riders should be jumping for joy they are getting R62A cars but even before that they have much to brag about. Straphanger's last report said the Flushing Line has the best service for the buck fifty. Fewer breakdowns, shorter waits, overall better service than other lines. The R36s are not the oldest of the old fleet and now without the single R33 in the consist, all are air conditioned. Factor in the high MDBFs of the R62 and R62As and you crybabies will be getting a durable car without the teething problems associated with new cars. I work the 7 line and the radios are not bustling with breakdowns of car equipment. Go to the mainline and you will hear a much different story. Be happy with what you got. Be content with what you'll get. 90 second headways, extra trains during ballgames and full trainsets during the owl tour. The R62 may not be new but is will look a hell of a lot better than a WF car with a see through body.
Sorry,I omitted that the #7 line also received new cars in 1939, 1948 & 1950.
The R62/62As are indeed very good cars. It will be good to see them on the 7 line. My only complaint is that the 62s should have been put on the Flushing line sooner (early 1990s) so the single R33s could have been retired sooner and the 7 could have had completely air-conditioned 11-car trains back then. Then the R36WFs could have been sent elsewhere (3 and 6 lines).
Interestingly, if this all pans out this will be the R62/62A’s second tour of duty on the Flushing line tracks. When first inaugurated in the ’80’s they were run as a test on the #7 train briefly before going back to the mainline routes.
Seems peculiar that Flushing will get the hand me downs. They got the first new IRT cars in 1948-50 [R12,14,15] and then the last new IRT cars for almost 20 years to follow in l964. In both of those cases the hand-me-downs from Flushing went to the mainline IRT. But I guess in those days Queens riders had more clout than Bronxites.
Personally, I don't see what the issue is. R-62As are reliable, why ask for anything else? I could come out here and complain as to why the 2 and 5 never got new cars until now, but I don't. GOH cars are better than nothing at all. It's life unfortuanetly, and a number of things must be considered. If I read someone else's post correctly, Corona Yard can't even accomodate the new cars at present. Being the case, you settle for the next best thing - an R-62A. This is a reliable car for a heavily used line.
-Stef
Back in the sixties and seventies, as new models were being introduced on the B division (38s, Slants, 44s, 46s), they always seemed to go on the Queens IND. This raised the hackles of activists from other boroughs: "Oh, Queens gets ALL the new trains and we get nothing!" They would conveniently forget that (a) there were still plenty of R1-6s sharing trackage with the new air-conditioned stainless steel rolling stock; (b) the 'F' also serves Manhattan and Brooklyn; and (c) people living in Astoria, Ridgewood, Woodhaven and Richmond Hill were still stuck with crummy old R-9s, 16s and 27s.
The Bronx screamed for years that they were served entirely by old Division A cars. No one seemed to notice that the 'D', even though it served a limited area compared to IRT lines, got many 42s and 44s.
When the 62s premiered on the '4', the cry was "Oh sure, the yuppies who work on Wall Street and live on the Upper East Side get the new trains!" Hello? The '4' also serves Harlem, the Bronx and many 'poor' parts of Brooklyn. You would think the new trains only ran from Bowling Green to 86th Street, and the remainder of the line would continue to be served by the R17s. Besides, those yuppies would be just as likely to catch a '5' on their commute of wealth.
The same reaction was heard when the 62As came on the '1'. It would ONLY benefit those who worked at the Trade Center and lives on the Yupper West Side. Not the poor immigrants in Washington Heights or the West Bronx working class, oh noooo! They can HAVE the same old R22s!
When the '3' got the new cars, there was no grateful acknowledgement that Harlem and Brownsville finally got their due, only grousing from Flatbush, West Farms, Williamsbridge and Wakefield that those communities were still stuck with the crummy old Redbirds.
Now with all trains air-conditioned, there shouldn't be such issues over what rolling stock serves what demographic. And yet I hear people who use Fulton Street local stops in Bed-Stuy and ENY complain that their 'C' is all old 32s while the fancy 44s on the 'A' whip by on their way to and from 'fancy' Queens. Since when are Ozone Park and the Rockaways 'fancy'?
When you're complaining, you can make ANY spin on an argument to fit your point of view.
(When you're complaining, you can make ANY spin on an argument to fit your point of view. )
I think over the decades, the BMT Eastern Division (J/M/Z/L) has had the most right to complain, and those lines don't serve any politically powerful neighborhoods.
Then again, the L is scheduled to get the R143s first.
There is no doubt that some type of political motivation does play some part into who gets new trains and who doesn't.
If that weren't true, why would the #6 who, after getting the "new cars" in 1986-1988, is now getting even a whole fleet (supposedly) of even newer cars in 2000-2001? Why not distribute the load evenly? Why not give some to each line? The #1, #3, #6, and #4 lines can contribute their cars to the #7 while getting R142/142A's in return.
Likewise, why were the #5 and #2 lines skipped over for getting any new trains in the 1980's? Why weren't each line given a few new train sets? The #5, it is argued, isn't a 24 hour line so the new cars would have been "wasted" on that line. But what about the #2, then? Only till a few years ago did the #5 receive about 2 or 3 sets of R-62A's from the #6. The #2 has remained 100% Redbird.
As for the L line, I can't help but think that the reason this line is getting the R-143's is because the line does in fact run through an intresting mix of neighborhoods. These neighborhoods do include areas which are now inhabited by persons who want to live a subway stop or two area from the city and can afford the now-expensive rents in these renovated areas.
(Why not give some to each line?)
I think the idea is to have a particular model associated with a particular car barn, where workers can learn to maintain it and parts can be available. If cars were spread around, those in every barn would have to have expertise in every car.
What would be fair is direct replacement. You have the oldest cars. They are replaced. Now you have the newest cars.
By that criteria the Flushing Line should get the R142s first. The L/J/Z/M should get the R143s.
I thought the 2 and 5 had some of the oldest trains (The R26 & R28's)
It does. In the mid 1980's, Flatbush riders got the newly overhauled redbirds, while the #3 line was stuck with awful R17/21/22 units. For a while, the #2 had the better cars.
The 5 has the oldest Redbirds you speak of. The 2 is all R-33.
> By that criteria the Flushing Line should get the R142s first.
> The L/J/Z/M should get the R143s.
Neither the Flushing line nor the L/J/Z/M have the oldest cars but I agree with the principal of oldest-gets-replaced-first...
-Dave
The R-143s are only going to the L first for the sole reason that it is a completely isolated line, perfect for testing the ATO. Everything else (except the #7) is intertwined and mixed with other lines. Otherwise they'd end up on the A.
CBTC, not ATO.
The trains will still have an operator and conductor, and they will still fully control the train.
It might be this “political consideration” business which explains why, in 1968-69, all sections of the BMT/IND “B” Division got new R-42 cars (not just one section as was the case with, say, the R-38), so that they ran on every lettered line except the Franklin and Culver shuttles.
The Franklin shuttle did have some R42's operating on it in 1969-70. There are pictures showing this on this website.
Thanks for that tip. However, were R-42’s ever on the Culver shuttle that year?
The "CC" never got any R42s although occasionally (I should say VERY rarely) one would wander over from the "D"; nor did the "HH" get any of the new cars.
wayne
I've heard the R-42s were spread around at first so that every B division route would have at least a few air-conditioned trains.
"Why not give some to each line?"
I believe this was done with the R42 order, where each B division line got a small number of them. It was a nightmare, with no centrally located maintenance facilities for the new trains. They broke down quickly, especially the new AC units. I can't remember riding a single pre-GOH R42 with working AC in the 1980's.
,I can remember before my mid l977 departure that the A/C worked fine,,,even in winter. My poor freezing passengers asked me just before Canarsie if I could stop that cold air blowing! So what else, pull all the cooling circuit breakers.. including fans. At least the underseat heat worked. Just thought I'd share this.
Ah, you must have had the 4900-series cars, the COLDEST of the R42s. These things could freeze an Eskimo.
Ever get one on a rainy day/high humidity day where the windows would fog up? This happened to me on Bat Day/Moon Day, July 20,1969 on the "D" as one of the brand-spanking-new 4700s made a maiden voyage.
I also ran into an R40M on the "L" back in Aug. 1969; I think it was being tested (High 4200s/low 4300s). The A/C was delightfully cold, and the temperature outside was about 96.
wayne
You mean the Yankees held Bat Day on July 20, 1969? I remember that day well; we watched as the Eagle (Apollo 11) landed on the moon while visiting my sister at the girls' camp she was attending in Putnam, CT. The Mets had Helmet Day a week later. I was supposed to go with a friend from school, but it fell through. It seemed to rain on every Sunday in July of 1969.
Interesting parallel: R-42s with the A/C on in the middle of winter and R-1/9s with the heat on in the summer.
Once, while on a light rail train here, it was uncomfortably warm, and we got on the intercom to ask the operator to at least turn the fans on, if not the A/C. He did so.
I thought the L was getting the R-143s because it does not connect to any of the other lines and they want to test cab signalling on it.
I always view it as which yard will get them first. The shop forces have had the training to make inspections and minor repairs to keep the new equipment running. With the A/C design as a removeable modules, access to the roof to remove the a/c unit is just as important too.
[Now with all trains air-conditioned, there shouldn't be such issues over what rolling stock serves what demographic. And yet I hear people who use Fulton Street local stops in Bed-Stuy and ENY complain that their 'C' is all old 32s while the fancy 44s on the 'A' whip by on their way to and from 'fancy' Queens. Since when are Ozone Park and the Rockaways 'fancy'?]
And what's so terrific about the R-44's as compared to the R-32's? I'll take the latter any day - they've got better seating (the bucket seats on the R-44's are too small for normal people), ice-cold air conditioning, and best of all you can walk between cars.
R44's have window seats. That makes them superior to any 60' car, at least to me :-)
Agreed; my mom howled about "us in the Bronx having to ride the old junk' when we rode on the Flushing lines R12/14/15 (which I personally disliked, and her comment about the old junk was like a stake in my childish heart [meaning High V and Low-v cars]. When Pelham got the R17 's then she said they got them there for the poor Puerto Ricans.Name you're group, status, whatever...of course it's rubbish but sometimes one wonders. As you say only parts of any given line serve one group specifically.
>>...Be happy will the air conditioned rust-birds
>>with the rail-fan window.
Quite a joy, indeed!
I am interested in the old trolley lines that ran out along Rockaway Boulevard to LI and the Rockaway Penninsula, as well as the line that seems to have run from Jamaica out to Laurelton and Rosedale (and out to LI?). Does anybody have any information about these lines? I wonder if they might have been owned by one of the Brooklyn trolley companies? I have not seen anything about them at this site. For that matter, there is actually very little about NY's old trolley lines at the railfan web sites I have visited (the possible exception may be some of the old Manhattan and Brooklyn trolleys, but I note that I have seen nothing about the old Bronx or Queens lines.)
You should probably read the Vincent Seyfried series of books.
One of the trolley lines you are interested in, the Ocean Electri
Ry., was one of the rare examples of trolley cars equipped with
third rail shoes so it could share trackage with the LIRR Rockaway
line back when it ran on the surface.
[You should probably read the Vincent Seyfried series of books.]
I second that, and BTW some have been re-published so they are available, got mine at Shoreline. Try the TA museum, they'll even take phone orders & give a little something extra if you order $30 worth of stuff. (I got a poster of the 1st 5 years of MCs this way a year or so ago).
Mr t__:^)
Don't bother trying to catch it on the 2 line. A moterman told me they're having trouble with that one. I'm gonna try and catch it at Pelham Bay tomorrow. Wish me luck, my friends:)
My Website
That's cause the 2 line is jinxed!
LOL!
Yyyyyyyyyyes!!
>>..they're having trouble with that one.
Yyyyyyyyyyyess!!!
At about 11pm Wednesday night, I spotted from a distance (about 3 blocks) a train that looked like the R-142 (or 142A)running on the el over White Plains Road heading southbound towards Bronx Park East.
Perhaps they had the train out for tests?
Does anyone have a drawing of the New Interlocking at Great Neck LIRR
Can anyone draw up a track diagram of the new Line and passing sidingS
Thank you
Steve
I'm going Friday. The track was always there. I suspect they just upgraded it and put new stations. I wonder if there was any legal hassel because I thought Conrail owned the track north of Dover Plains.
any drawing you can offer would be appreciated
The track north of Dover Plains was abandoned.
Conrail no longer exists.
I rode the Boeing-Vertol LRV on the C line today, and noticed some interesting, "retro-like" seat cushions. Instead of the normal tan color, they were blue with a plastic black trim. Did more cars have this style, like before the Amerirail overhaul in 1996? -Nick
The tan is normal. The thing I liked about those overhauls is the addition of the "retro-style" folding side doors, to replace the "slide-and-slam" original doors, which had been nothing but trouble.
While riding on July 6 and 7, I spotted many cars with tan and blue "mixed" seats. When did the T do this? Looked pretty good.
Joe C.
The tan and blue seats are on the type 7s 3600-3699; I believe this is how those cars came in 1986 and 1987. -Nick
Is there a track map of the HBLR line yet?
contact me on smokiecat@webtv.net
Steve
OK. For 4 months, every day when I eat my lunch at the 43rd floor cafeteria at 2 World Trade Center, I see, looking out the west side windows towards New Jersey, what appears to be a light rail line snaking past the buildings that line the Hudson riverfront directly across from lower Manhattan. Is this the "Hudson-Bergen" light rail line people refer to? I'm an idiot when it comes to rail lines outside NYC. Any info would be appreciated.
Yes that is the Hudson Bergen Light Rail line, operated with Kinki-Sharyo Low Floor Light Rail Cars.
Trevor Logan
Thanks!
japan - Sharyo mfg. .... made the same type of cars for the green & blue lines here in los angeles .......
Open your world, man!
There's a world full of interesting rail systems. Learn, man!
Did you start noticing it around the middle of April?
When were the original IRT station entrances removed and why? The old ones looked pretty cool.
Memory serves me to say about l960. The excuse was that they [kiosks] were maintenance intensive. True of course compared to simple entrances not needing so much painting, but it was a pity to see these works of art demolished. It wasn't enough expense to break the camel's back.
Also, their location near street corners became a safety issue, as they blocked sight-lines for automobile traffic making turns.
[Also, their location near street corners became a safety issue, as they blocked sight-lines for automobile traffic making turns.] They tended to hide street-crossing pedestrians from view until it was too late, that is.
That's BS, since many were replaced with newsstands.
BS? I could swear I heard that street safety was part of the reason for the kiosks' removal on a Transit Museum tour of the IRT. Either I'm remembering it wrong, or Joe Cunningham was joking.
My apologies to him and the rest of you if I'm putting words in his mouth. This tour was 2 or so years ago. Believe me, I'm not trying to mislead.
KP
I have always understood that the kiosks were considered a safety hazard, because they impeded access to a greater extent than simple stairway openings. Frankly, upon consideration, I am not sure that this idea makes a great deal of sense since access is essentially still limited by the capacity of the stairways regardless of what is at street level. Any further ideas about this?
07/13/2000
Has anybody seen the glorius Astor Place station kiosk that was recreated from original drawings? IT'S RUSTING.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Has anybody seen the glorius Astor Place station kiosk that was recreated from original drawings? IT'S RUSTING.]
The whole Astor Place renovation is falling into sad disrepair only a few years after its completion. What a waste.
On Monday, before I found the R-142as, 8660 came in on the #6 line and I (finally) had the opportunity to ride it. IMHO this is the best GOH'ed redbird of the mainlines. There are no straps, instead there are bars in literally R-62 style (Right angles, bar going from end seat to ceiling, etc). There also is stainless steel paneling on the cab, the cab door, and above the windows. There are also no grid-like panels in the ceiling and no trace of the center lighting track. I know there are a few R-33s like this, but this is the only car with stainless steel and bars on the interior. There is also a better-looking number plate. The A/C was also incredibly cold.
Sounds like 8660, despite being an R-29, is one of the cars that wil make the cut for the surviving Redbird fleet when the R-142s all arrive (of course, with the reports about the Bombardier problems, there may be a few more Redbirds than planned surviving to the 100th anniversary of the system in 2004)
1. What was the manufacturer?
2. Where were 3005-6?
3. Who's "ingenious" idea was it to buy married-pair non-powered coaches?
4. Why were the tinted windows not included in the C-3?
5. Why did they not use the 3 - 2 seat configuration on the C-3?
5. Well the advertisments on the other LIRR cars says it's because they listened to their passengers and wanted to make them comfortable - and my opinion is that they are very comfortable with very ample leg and hip room.
2. Where were 3005-6?
In the trade journals, the LIRR is advertising the 10 car set as 8 servicable cars with 2 stripped for parts. My guess is that 3005-3006 were the organ donors.
3. Who's "ingenious" idea was it to buy married-pair non-powered coaches?
If you are looking for one person to 'blame' then it would be the pewrson at the top, who signed off on the purchase. However, I think it's more the mindset of the MTA that is as fault (or due the credit). Keep in mind that the C-1s were built as a test train. Likely, the lack of flexiblity that couplers would have provided was seen as not necessary when weighed against the cost savings of linked units.
I am not sure of what trainsets you are talking about, as I have not visited the Island since '83...
But simple logic says that if you build trainsets as married pairs, it would be to expensive to divert from this plan for a non-powered set.
Building non-powered sets makes sense, because each powered car *is* a locomotive, and must be inspected as such, while a non-powered pair would not require the same inspection sequence. This alone is a reason for many commuter lines investing more in push-pull than in self-propelled equimpment.
Elias
These pairs were pulled(pushed) by 2 FL-9s modified for use on the LIRR. I believe this is the only case where there were engine hauled married pair cars.
It was the test train for the new C-3s (single units) and went from Penn Station to Port Jefferson daily.
IIRC it was a German Company and they delivered the prototype engine some FIVE YEARS behind the originally promised date.
I noticed this past weekend at GCT that the boards by each of the tracks that displays information about a train (on that track)when it will depart, and what stations it will stop at. The "flipper" boards (I believe they were installed in 1981) are being replaced with new digital ones, just like the main departure boards were done a few years ago. -Nick
OOH! Any cahnce the LIRR will get that too?
I guess not.
07/13/2000
[OOH! Any cahnce the LIRR will get that too?
I guess not.]
I think so, Jamaica station has had their flipper boards replaced by the easier to see led's/ I think Penn Station is next, one unit by track 17 has their innards removed. I guess parts are non existant.
Bill "Newkirk"
I know people have asked this millions of times but:
What's going to happen with the R-110A?
I actually have a reason for this question, I believe I saw it inside E 180 st shops. I remember seeing a car with the bulkhead sign set to #2, but the area outside the circle was lit up in red. I didn't realize this could be the 110a until I saw the picture here and reaized this sign looked the same.
The R-110A is slated to come back into service, they are doing some seat modifications to the cars to resemble the R142 order. YES that was the R-110A you saw up there, she arrived at 180th Monday morning, I was at 180th waiting to see if the Bombardier R142 was running when she came down from 239th and went straight into the yard. I asked one of the yardmen there and they gave me the whole shpeal about why they are there (New Seats, Programming by Kawasaki Personnel there, so on and so on). Also there is 3 other R142 sets in the barn too!
Trevor Logan
Great! At least we know this train won't be going to waste..... I thought this was an ok train, but they seemed to have troubles with the side displays, every so often. Changing the seats you say? Good idea. You can seat more passengers now.
Too bad we can't say the same for the R-110B. 6 cars running, 3cars cannabalized. A shame....
-Stef
Maybe if they come back into service it could be on the #7? Mayhaps to appease the masses in Queens (me) for a new train, since they need "proven technology."
07/13/2000
[The R-110A is slated to come back into service, they are doing some seat modifications to the cars ]
You mean they are removing those gorgeous yellow seats ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess they are removing the foward facing seats. Damn, I love those seats and they are the only IRT car I could ever enjoy them on.
At least you got to enjoy them! By the time I learned of the 110A's existence, it was out of service!
yep they are going to put the beautifuly baby blue/lavender seats that I love so much in those babies!
Trevor
What about the five-foot wide side doorways? Are they going to narrow them? Won't they have to be narrowed to be compatible with the R142s. And will they be painting the area around the head and taillights red?
These NTT R-110A (R-131) will not be compatible with the NMT R-142/R-142A order, so you will no see a five car set of NTT R-110A (R-131) cars coupled to a set of R-142 or R-142As. These cars are just have some minor modifications done.
What's being done:
New Seatsand Seating Arrangement
Programming all A-Division (IRT) route into it's Automation System
Window Replacements (Due to Scratchitti during the test period)
What's NOT being done:
The exterior (It will retain the original NTT R-110A Look)
The doors (It will retain the original door size)
Everything else on the cars will remain the same as the day the NTT R-110A was delivered.
Trevor Logan
What they should have been doing is doing whatevewr it took to make them compatible. The seats and doors are minor cosmetic differences that do not effect their running together. (I wish they had kept the toy plastic colored seats with some back to back.)
But they should try to completely integrate them into the Kawasaki 142 fleet, so you won't have these oddballs that can't be mixed with others when one set is out of service. If it means sending them back to the plant and redoing everything but the shells. Then renumber them as the tail end of this order.
I think its really MTA preparing itself for a l o n g testing period for the Bombardier 142s. After about a month they'll throw the modified 110A onto the 2 to make the riders think they have more than one new train.
07/15/2000
Trevor,
Why was the R-110A out so many times and for long periods too. Mechanical or electrical in nature?
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe it was a little bit of both, plus they did some non-revenue running of the cars around last fall/winter up on the White Plains branch of the #2!
They'll get them back together, the NTT R-110A was a great train!
Trevor Logan
07/15/2000
Another question on the R-110A;
How did the automated station announcements do? Success or failure?
Bill "Newkirk"
The NTT R-110A (R-130) Announcement System went fairly well, they only problem was the exterior signage.
Trevor Logan
In addition to being able to blank out stations that will be skipped (even after the route has started--noticed this when Astor, Spring, and Canal went out after we were ordered to go express at 14th), the signs also have a handy indicator light that I noticed went on:
Train rerouted: sign not in use
The automated stops were announced even while the map was off (which is what I assume will happen if a #5 is sent down the west side, and if a #2 is sent up the Lex).
The New York Daily Post News Times
4 July 2046
By Droid #26804B
The Metropolitan Travel Regulatory Board today announced their plans for an update to their antiquated Metrocard system with new "Mindterface" technology.
The "card," a chip implanted in the back of a person's neck at the base of their spine is compatible with the government approved "Mindterface" technology for seamless integration of computers and the human brain. A person with an existing Mindterface chip can have the MetroCard Iridium data uploaded there for immediate use. Conversely, the chip will allow other Mindterface applications to be installed.
In addition to allowing fare payment without having to flash any cards, Mindterface will enforce TA regulations by emitting harmful radiation into a person's brain, killing them instantly if they attempt to commit any vandalism. "Because it can read your thoughts, it can do this before any action is even committed" says MTRB spokesman Al O'Bundy.
In addition to the features to be implemented next year, the MTRB also plans to add mind control to the system. "The only thing we can do now is to cause them either great pain or death if they break the law, but not all crimes warrant that" said O'Bundy, "With mind control, we can get the holographers who try to shoot railfan holograms to smash their own cameras."
Once the system will be ubiquitous, it will become the only way to use the transportation system. As a result, the TA plans to install heavy duty computer systems to control the minds of every commuter who has passed through the fare forcefield and make them into well behaved drones until leaving the system. "This will finally put an end to those pesky door holders without having to kill them and then delay service even more" O'Bundy says.
Commuters displayed mixed reactions. C. Beach of the underwater Borough of Atlantis says that "it will finally put and end to fumbling to take my wallet out of my tight pants and then putting them back. I can't wait to be the first guy in my sector to have one!" However, Pell Hamm of the borough formerly known as Queens feels differently, "I don't want any mind controlling crap in my head." His friend Mary Wanna disagrees "Me and my boyfriend Ko Caine love that mind control stuff, but to ride the subway with it would be surreal."
The system, which will be called Metrocard Iridium will be available at the same time next year, the 50th anniversary of the implementation of the now defunct subway to bus transfer. "We feel that since the implementation of the one world order, the 4th of July has lost its meaning and we need something that merits celebration" says MTRB Chief Commissar Lex Ington. Dee Jitall of the renegade Political Geography institute says "This implementation date is a wondeful idea, since it gives us an excuse to celebrate a holiday otherwise illegal under the Antiquated Holiday Elimination Act of 2032."
In other transit news, the MTRB board postponed the start of construction on a subway under Second Avenue saying, "We need to raise our salaries before we can think about helping the average Joe Commuter."
Why did you fall to mention the subroutines that detects six commuters seated on a bench and causes them to "Shift left", creating an aditional seat. What about the subroutine that compeles elcalator standees that detect a "chip to the right" , to begin to assend or decend? How about the subroutine that detects a wall of chips and issues the "pause and wait for next train " command?
avid
P.S. why do you fail to reveal the rest, is it the Propriatery Information Subroutine taking effect?
Shut down your shields, prepare to be assilated, Conform!
The Information Control Act of 2041 prevents news droids from revealing the information you have mentioned. It also prevents civilians from displaying the information in a public forum.
If a police droid comes to take you away, don't be surprised.
Has someone been taking "heypaul" lessons?
Hey, "Pigs", You out Heypauled Heypaul
In a publication called The New York Chronicle, I saw a reproduction of an 1878 ad advertising train/ferry service from Manhattan to Manhattan Beach. You ferried to Greenpoint, then took a train to Manhattan Beach.
I can pretty much guess the route between the Bushwick Terminal and Manhattan Beach: Bushwick Branch, then the so-called "Evergreen" Branch (south of Wyckoff Avenue) to its junction with the Bay Ridge Branch near the Cemetery of the Evergreens; then the Bay Ridge Branch to its junction with the Manhattan Beach Branch near Brooklyn College, and then on to the shore.
But what was the connection in Greenpoint to the shoreline and ferry? What street did it use, and what railroad are we talking about? These connections may not have been part of the LIRR at the time, since the LIRR bought up competing railroads in the 19th century.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
I have some information on the ROW to Greenpoint in the NY & Manhattan Beach Railway and Evergreen Branch pages of my LIRR History website.
Bob
No offense, but it's </a> not <a/>.
While Netscape ignored the erroneous tag and cause two really long, continuous links. Internet Explorer, however, properly recognized the intention of the tags and closed the links.
You also forgot the ; in < Netscape showed <a/> while IE figured it all out and displayed the intended <a/>
And people say that Microsoft only produces unreliable crap.
Touche.
You also forgot the ; in < Netscape showed <a/> while IE figured it all out and displayed the intended <a/>
IINM, then, Netscape happens to be following the specs here. (Not that I'm a big fan of either product.)
What's IINM?
If I'm not mistaken.
So is Internet Explorer, but Internet Explorer is being intelligent, Netscape is blindly following the rules.
what do you use then, Lynx? Opera?
I use both Netscape and IE since I haven't yet found a browser that adequately supports Tim Berners-Lee's original conception of the World Wide Web.
I do occasionally use Lynx if I want to look something up quickly.
What do you consider the original comception to be?
I'm all for the improvements such as DHTML and JavaScript.
See TimBL's papers on the topic. I think you can find some (all?) of them on the W3C site.
In brief, the web was designed as a platform-independent repository of "stuff" (call it information, if you like). Platform-independent doesn't mean that every bit of content must be accessible on every platform; of course, a piece of graphical content can't be accessed on a text-based terminal. It does mean that, to whatever degree is possible, content should be available to all platforms. Text, certainly, should get through everywhere. And I'm not restricting my attention to the canonical browser in a window on a PC; PDA browsers, aural browsers, and search engines also should have access to the material on the web. Furthermore, to the extent of the platform's capabilities, the user should have as much control over the presentation as possible -- perhaps I have some strange but strong preference for drop-caps to open paragraphs, or maybe I'm nearly blind so I need to set my font sizes really big or I won't be able to read anything.
This may sound like a daunting task (and perhaps a somewhat unnecessary one), but HTML was designed with this in mind. <P> doesn't mean "skip a line" or "indent this line"; it means "paragraph container," and the browser can present that paragraph as it pleases. More generally, HTML provides not presentation instructions but rather logical structure, upon which the browser applies a set of presentation rules (which would ideally be redefinable by the user). So if I mark up a paragraph, it should be portrayed as a paragraph on every browser, but one browser might portray a paragraph differently from another.
Something, somewhere, went amiss. People started insisting that the web be like TV. What shows up on my TV looks exactly like what shows up on your TV. Web sites began using the logical markup of HTML not to provide logical markup but to produce the precise presentational effects they happened to cause on one or two platforms, and designers all scratched their heads and wondered why HTML was such a poor page description language. It isn't a page description language, of course; that's what we have PDF and PostScript for. But these designers refused to consider that there's nothing wrong with my screen looking different from your screen, and that in fact such adaptability is often quite useful. That takes us to web pages that look "right" only in browser A in a window of size BxC on computer D running operating system E (and let's not even think what happens if the "browser" speaks to the user on a telephone rather than displaying stuff on a monitor). The masses, unaware of what the web could have been, gleefully accepted -- and continue to accept -- demands to use this browser and that window size.
The tide has started to turn with style sheets (CSS). A style sheet is essentially a mapping from logical structure (as in pure HTML) to presentation. A style sheet might come with a web page, suggesting that paragraphs be portrayed this way and hyperlinks that way, thereby allowing for presentational effects while maintaining the separation between presentation and structure. A user might also have his own style sheet, for his own browser; if he's the nearly blind user I mentioned above, he might insist that the font size be huge, even if the style sheet supplied with the web page might prefer otherwise. CSS is a relatively recent innovation, and it remains to be seen if it will ultimately lead to HTML being used as it was designed.
I have nothing against DHTML or JavaScript, as they can be quite useful. I do, however, have much against flashy technology for the sake of flashy technology. Most (not all!) of the JavaScript I've come across serves no function whatsoever.
>>> I do, however, have much against flashy technology for the sake of flashy technology. <<<
Amen to that David. I am glad that Dave P. has kept this site free from the distracting things which just increase download time without enhancing content seen on most of the sites that I have linked to from here.
I used to keep my browser set to text only so I could see what was on a website more quickly. Now there are so few sites that are readable without graphics it is no longer practical to do so.
Tom
it looked absolutely normal on my screen. see, IEXPLORE compensates for people who are too dumb to know proper html format.
Why do you even bother putting up an e-mail address? Just leave it blank AOL user.
It used some mid- block PRW through what are now industrial blocks, then it came out into Quay street and ended into a dock a bit west of Franklin Street. I think that is also where the Monitor was built during the Civil War.
There are two sources of printed info (besides website stuff already alluded to) regarding your inquiry on the NY and Manhattan Beach.
One is a small publication "By Narrow Gauge to Manhattan Beach" published in the 1940s by (I think) the Railroadians of America, the other is one of Vincent Seyfried's LIRR books (which are worth their weight in gold, IMHO).
The line was originally 3' gage and used trains leftover from the 1876 Phila Centennial exposition. It was owned by the banking, real estate, and railroad tycoon Austin Corbin, who built it to provide access to Manhattan Beach, which he developed as an upscale counterpart to the more familiar Coney Island developments to the west.
The ROW west of the Bushwick branch is completely obliterated, though I've never studied aerial photos to see if any building configurations remain as traces. Some maps in the map room at the NYPL show it with good references to the existing street overlay. I traced it out on a Hagstrom.
Email me privately and I can give you better info on the publications, if you are interested.
Not a lot for a railfan to care about this month, however ...
- Theme is Rey Playland, so they keep coming back to the park.
- Want to see the MTA chairman speak, this is Virgial's month
- Met's MCs & pitcher Mike Hampton as a Red Bird CONDUCTOR !
- Clark Street station update
- Handing out new gold dollar coins underground, did you get one ?
- Brooklyn Battery Tunnel 50th birthday with some history film & old car parade ... well it is part of the MTA you know.
- 81st IND station renovations at Museum of Natural History, they spent MORE then one percent on this one ... looks very nice.
I must have been bored as I could sware it was an hour show, but I'm still not upset with this 1/2 as it was educational/informative.
Mr t__:^)
I checked out the upcomming events page and I saw that for the big nycsubway.org 5th Anniversary Gala on Suturday you will be sneaking into Cony Island for a self guided "tour" and then partying all nite with pizza and non-alcoholic slides. Then on Sudday, when nothing in Philly is running, you will make a trip all the way down here to see that nothing is running. I sugest that you come to philly on Suturday , ride the trains when things still have headways, bring a portable slide projector and party on the ride home. Then on sunday you can take your "tour" when nobody is around. Also if you get arrested during your "tour" you will have still been able to go to philly.
Excuse me, I beg to differ...... We will NOT be "sneaking" into Coney Island Yard. I have been working this tour out for months....Yes a tour, A guided tour by Mike Hanna. NOT A SELF GUIDED TOUR!. As for the comments about getting arrested and sneaking in.... All I'll say is NOT TRUE!!! Why say that if you don"t know?? I know this is Dave's site and he runs the show BUT, I feel it is my right to defend this.
Now....The tour goes like this...... Anyone who wants to go should mail me privately. This tour is limited to 25 people and yes there is a catch, You MUST be a SubTalker (Include real name and handle in E-mail)
E-MAIL THIS ADDRESS:
DTYPE6112@WEBTV.NET
I know it was a real tour, but I had to make lite of the fact that when most railfans take a tour it is usually self-guided and Sundays and Holidays are the best time for self guided tours. It is also in my experiance that you see more, have more fun and accquire more collectables on self-guided tours.
This message brought to you by the Railroads: If we wanted you out we'd have put up a fence without holes.
For part 11 of Jersey Mike asks Pointless Opinion questions aboot the Subway: Have you ever noticed that most subway lines have certain places where 2 trains pass eachother on their respective tracks. On PATCO there will always be another train in or around Broadway station and MFL trains usually pass around 15th and during peak period at 30th o.
You are getting to close for your own good! These passing points are in fact "DEAD DROPS" for heypauls agents. You will aslo have noted so called construction shacks through out the systems. These are safehouses for THE MASTER OF DISGUISE . Point in fact, at 42nd St. on the 6th Ave. hepaul was observed on stake out at the transfer point between the #7 and the F lines .A known area for trafficers of MINI-capybars and 20th century mankind artifacts remover from stations during there rehab stages. hepaul was in his Anita Abernathy disguise. Flaming red hair , Cream like complexion, slight freckling on the bosom, v-neck designer dress, soft yellow with floral print of large pansies in briliant plums, reds, orange, and AVACADO, accompined with a black boarder.There was a scent of Honeysuckle in the air. hepaul was doing quite well in matching yellow platform open toed sandles. heypauls legs were silky smooth, although we eren't close enough to run a tender hand on the shapely calf. For security heypaul was wearing those wraparound mirror finish sunglasses. The ones that look like aliens and you can't see a persons eyes to see were their looking.
When hepaul realized someone had him under surveilance,with lightning like speed a construction dorr lock was picked . The only thing seen was the swish of floral print and the slamming of a door. Upon closer inspection, only a grizzled construction worker with official MTA track vest, hard hat and fility work clothes could be found, and he disappeared in the #7 tunnel heading to Times Square.
The "Immigrants Without Status Garment Works Daily" revealed hepaul was tracking Hunters turned minors . They are removing old tiles from rehab-ed stations , to be made into trivits and sold to tourist from Kansas.
To tell you the truth , I suspect the grizzled old dude, like, where did he go?
avid
P.S. A tip , at Jay St , on the "F" line, Trach B2, location 785 + 50,
are cobalt blue tiles , just barly hang to the wall. Watch for hepaul to stake it out. Beware , its dangerously close to a "NEWSTAND" Protect youself at all times.
avid... wearing that anita abernathy disguise was one of the worst moments in my life... i couldn't wait to get out of that tropical dress with its avocado, orange and red color... fortunately it was a reversible dress, which was a much more modest battleship gray on the flip side...
Did you ever fell as if you had seen someone before? Not just a day or week ago , but hours or minutes. This is the creepy felling I recently had at Jay Street, while changing from the "A" to the "F". As you are all aware, this station is one that THE MASTER OF DISGUISE has been known to stake out. Chills hit me , as I was checking out how many tiles had disappeared since my last visit to this station. Trying to be very calm ,I slowly turned , pretending to interested in the sign that said "exit to street " .It took alot of willpower, but I remained calm. I was afraid of soiling my tousers again. I slowly scanned each person on the platform. Some were farmiluar faces, but looked harmless. There were a coulpe loud mouth female transit clerks going home after the overnight stint in token booths. I spotted some postal workers in their hap-hazard uniforms. So far all normal. Some construction and building trades people grunting at each other about jobs past and those coming up. Then I heard a greeting shouted from one platform to the other. BUM BA CLOTZ. YA MON . WATCH YA DOIN MON?
GOIN TO SEE YO WOMEN? HA HA HA.
The speaker on my platform was the one! Although his dreadlocks were slipping out from under his knitted yellow,red,green and black cap. His clothes hung on his lean frame. It was the eyes ! He had a slight grin on his face, but the eyes were not smiling. They were always scanning, probing , hardly blinking. BINGO! It had to be heypaul! I very casually strolled in his direction, never looking directly at him. I didn't want to blow his cover. There were no Construction shacks around. When I was about ten feet or three meters away I said "Do you prefer orange or avacado co-ordinated interior design for you seating? He answered "MON YOU CRAZY MON!" "BUT ONE CHOICE, ORANGE MON!" After a secret hand shake,slaps, taps, and waps he wispered "The lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel has been cleaned out of all the land crabs , so da rats be runnin wild an him don't know what to do.
The balance was upset, now we knew why the rats were out of control.
The demand for crabcakes and softshell crabs had eliminated one of the key parties in the underground food chain and chaos was galluping down express track. These people and tourist out at the Hamptons and down at the Jersey shore had a big appitite and didn't have a clue to what was going on in the war against RATS. As I turned to heypaul , he had just boarded an "A" train and before I could follow the doors closed . As the train pulled out of Jay ST. heypaul was entering the unused cab, he turned to face me as he removed the knitted cap and gave me a worried look. He was heading UPTOWN. My train pulled in on B2, I was lucky , I beat out an old lady to a seat. Score one for the home team, but things still looked grim.
avid
evildoers... beware... although avid has recently revealed two of my more ingenious disguises, heypaul is a master of disguise... and when the need to lurk unnoticed arises remember:
who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of man...
heypaul the shadow knows... hehhehhehhehheh....
Yo ras bumba clot mon
I had him now! As both of our trains approach West 4th St. and our trains negociated the switche , I caught a glimps of a pair of red beady eyes stareing back at me . Only night creatures ,or creatures of the dark had the red eyes. Its a reflector at the back of the eye that enhances night vision. How is this possible? Is he human or Superhuman? This needs an explaination!
When the "F" train I was on finally halted, I raced for the esculator on my fat stumpy little legs, tried to run up to the upper level and board the "A" when I was nearly knocked over be some damn fool manic on rollerblades wear yellow and black spandex, kneepads a backpack and a bicycle helmet. I headed for the door of the cab, it was ajar and the cab was empty. I heard the door chimes and knew I was trapped on the "A". Then I leaped for the window and stuck my head out and looked back towars the exit, the skater looked over his shoulder and grinned that all knowing grin. Maybe there was hope after all, just maybe.
avid
be on guard avid... your continued presence on the scenes of several of my investigations has not gone without notice... this is beyond coincidence... is avid a double agent for the newstand vendors?... is avid actually been filching tiles for his own bathroom wall?... i think it's time for the shadow to pay a visit to your villa in the rockaways...
remember avid: " the weed of crime bears bitter fruit" and its a fruit that you wouldn't want to have as the color of a rapid transit seat...
As good fortune would hungry gnawed away at my gut. I jumped off the "A" at 34th/Penn station and headed in the arcade area to grab a slice or three of pizza, when who do I spy at the old newspaper bin but BMTman , trying to complete a Sunday New York Times.
I hastened to his side, mumbled the model numbers of all of the MTH PCC trolly cars, then spilled my guts to him on all that had transpired.
He leaned his head back and laughed. He continued laughing until a coughing fit overtook him. I pounded his back with no result. A quick Hymlick manuver and after about sixteen Smith Bros. cough drops flew out he was able to compse himself. he said it was obvious that the trail heypaul was following was to the lower level of the 63rd St Tunnel , the supposed to be used by the LIRR.
We fast walked to the sixth Ave 34th St Station. BMTman waited while I rummaged through the discarded Metro cards looking for good ones to trade. A few, but I won't mention which ones, leverage you know.
We continued to the uptown platform for the "F" train and waited. We were gonna take what ever came. We had Good Fortune on of side, as a "Q" slant pounded in and squealed to a halt. We got on , and BMTman used his low center of gravity to full advantage as he elbowed me aside as made for the Railfan Window. What ever, he deservers it, right. We plunged northward. From behind BMTman, I see goosebumps rise on the back of his neck as he is stareing into the tunnel ahead. He knows something , and is not sharing.
I begin to get that old feeling, danger
avid
avid---danger does await those who consort with the likes of bmt man... he is a man of untold allegiances as a franklinshuttlephile,llcanarsielinephile, metrocardphile, teslaphile, branfordtrolleyphile, transversewindowrailfanphile,
subwaynewstandvendorphile,
and most dangerous of all a limousineliberalphile...
BMTman was nervous, and upset. His left leg was twiching and twisting. I looked down and saw the problem. He had a really large wad of fresh gum stuck on his brown wingtip, the one with the broken and knotted lace. He was having a very difficult time trying to get it off, but was unsuccessful.
When we pulled into the Lexington Ave Station, he turned to me and said," Go to where the cut outs are, there is an emergency stair that goes to the street and down to the LIRR level. Your on your own. "
That startled me.
I remained startled as I watched the "Q" head into the tunnel. I stared at the rear red lights. It seemed as if the train slowed and stopped , but of coarse that was impossible. There wasn't any traffic ahead of us, all the signals were green.
I jogged to the emergency stairs, I didn't whant to be a hood ornament on Slant/r40.
I reached the stairs without a hitch and began to decend. When I reached th bottom I noticed the the scent of spices in the air. I headed towards Queens, and as I did , the further I went the darker it got. I Took out my Mini maglite keyring , the one with 5 D-cells and examined the wall lites. The deeper I went , the more bulbs were missing. Someone had deliberately caused this blackout. My light began to dim. I knew I should have replaced the cells last year.
There was debrie all over the place. styrofoam peanuts, empty duct tape rolls , empty ink bottles and a few empty cardboard cartons.
Something happened down here but with the dim light it was hard to tell.
WHOOOAE, YEOOOOW , Hey you , who's overthere I yelled. I saw something in the dark moving . Something very large and black. They ran past me towards the stairs. I put my stumpy little legs in motion and gave chase. When they were closer to the lights that were working I could see the were wearing suits and Derby Hats . Right , Dark, No Black suits and Black Derbys.
This was getting stranger by the minute and I had to go to the bathroom. As they ran into the stairway I could see the both had long beards, One was short and fat. Shaped like a Pear. The other was a little taller, lean and had a flaming read beard . The short guys beard was was just dark.
By the time I reached the stairs , the skinny guy was off the stairs and out of sight, but the fat one was having troule with the steep stairs.
When I reached the top , the strangest thing was before me. In the middle of the tracks ths skinny guy is rollerskating and the fat guy is ridding him piggeyback style, and I see gum, a big wad of it on his left shoe. I could not make ot the color, but I think the dauntless duo is back .
avid
They stumbled several times . I guess nobody ever told them you shouldn't skate on subway tracks, even if there are no ties.
When I reached each spot where the fell , I found things . The first spot I found crab shells, but these had been cooked and the shape was that of large land crabs. The next spot turned up a set of stamps, rubber stamps. Lucky for me , I had a post-it pad . I stamped it and they said "USDA-CHOICE" "USDA-GRADE-A", "K" "PARVE" "CAPYBAR VEAL"
"SNOW CRAB" "ALASKAN KING CRAB"
Where were they going now? I lost them at the elavators. I guess I better get to work at the pretzel factory.
avid
Was that heypaul rollerblading with BMTman on his back?
Was that a DOUBLE AGENT?
If you saw three piles of neat trash on a platform, is that orgaized grime?
The R/9 Motormans Cab must be activated, The mayors task force needs it.
Sleep on these profound revelations We are not alone.
avid
>>>Was that heypaul rollerblading with BMTman on his back?
If heypaul were rollerblading with BMT man on his back, it would not be long before heypaul became flatpaul 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
He shook the plastic bottle of "SkinSoSoft" again, although the directions did not require shaking. He sloshed another handfull on his neck, face, ears and arms. The fear of South Broolyn Nile virus made his blood run cold. From his perch high on the abandon wearhouse, he scanned the loading dock of "Feldmans Mayonaise" factory. He had a great view of the NY&A tracks. He heard it before he saw diesel pushing the tank car full of vegetable oil. It made the switch to the siding and slowedtoa crawl, then stopped. As the crew busied themselves with the task of uncoupling the tankcar a dark figure moved in the shadows . It moved from the shadows of the factory to the deisel and disappeared from view. The second figure , short and fat soon followed. With an effort, he too climbed the deisel and disappeared from view. They had to be the Daring Duo. Who else would track a load of Tartar sauce in the dead of night. The deisel moved to another siding and picked up a refrigerated box car with the Saucy Shrimp Cocktail logo and moved off towards Fresh Pond junction. Surf and I ran for the stairs desended as quickly and quietly as possible . We knew we would be wittness to something tonight. We were pumped up.
As the short consist grew we ran forward, always in the shadows, keeping some cover between us and the deisel. We made it just in time. The deisel had coupled the last few cars to complete the six car consist, and was beginningto pull out slowly. With a burst of speed we made it in time to seize the grabhandles and pull ourselves aboard. We were committed now. We spoken in low wispers and couldn't understand a word. So we shouted at each other. We both guessed we were heading for the HELLSGATE BRIDGE. The trail seemed to be leading to the Bronx. It looked like it would be a long night.
We climbed to the top of the car and crawled on our bellies to the hatch. When I reached the hatch, I pried it open and began to climb down . I turned to look for Surf and there he was , surfing. I grabbed him and pulled him down before we reached the first overpass. If he got hurt, his old lady would kill him.
We looked around the car, it was empty. We went to the door, and slide it open. We had a great veiw as we went along the old Bay Ridge Branch. This was cool. I couldn't wait to tell the guys about it. Soon we began the turn and crossed over Linden Blvd. The train was picking up speed as we desended into the tunnel . The ride was pretty smooth too. That didn't seem right. When we cleared the tunnel and approached Fresh Pond the train slowed a little. We made a switch, we weren't heading for HELLSGATE. We were on the Montauk Branch, we made another switch and as we looked out the door we saw we were heading at an open door leading into a factory.
We both began to panic, this sucker wasn't slowing. He's going to kill us . As darkness surrounded us ,we braced for the crash. The train kept going and as we peeked out the door looking back we saw the lighted factory siding grow dimmer. We were in a tunnel that neither of us knew about. WE could feel the train bank and hear it squeal through turns. Where were We?
The train began to slow. We peeked out the door as it slowed to a halt.
In the dim light we could make out the Word "ROOSEVELT AVE" on a tile wall. WE were in the unused station.
We heard voices approaching , so we climbed bach up and out the hatch.
We lay motionless for over an hour on the top of the empty box car while we heard a lot of people loading and unloading the box cars. It seemed like an eternity, but finally it got quiet. We waited another 15 minutes before we climbed down. It was very quite, deathly quiet. We worked our way forward , towards the deisel. Suddenly we where both grabbed from behind and hands were placed over our mouths to prevent us from crying out. The lights went out after a rag soaked in some strong solvent was placed over or faces.
avid
Throb, smack,smack, throb, smack, smack, throb, smack, throb.
Someone was shaking me and hitting me . When I opened my eyes I was stareing into two bearded faces. One winked at me while the other just rolled his eyes toward heaven . at that one said"Lets go, but be very very quite."
Surf seemed to be recovering . It looked as if he barfed, well it smelled that way. We crept forward, checking the platform as we advanced.
The far end had a light showing. We could see some activity going on. It looked as if all of the people were busy working on the train on the oposite side of the platform. The train was made up of gondols and box cars. We crawled across the platform and examined the cars at this end. The gondolas had hugh tanks of water in them. There was a loaded tank of fish.
One of the workers came our way, we all hid behind the columns and stayed in the shadows. He had a sack over his shoulder. He emptied the sack into the tank and the water boiled with a frenzy. The tank was full of PARANNA!!!!. After hw turned and went bck to the lit end of the platform we went to take a closer look. The waters calmed as the last of the rat heads were consumed.
Surf found a sign taped to the side of the gondola , it read "FARM RAISED FLOUNDER."
We went to the next car and peered in , I thougth the effects of the solvent were returning, I felt dizzy, the walls and floor of the gondola were moving, getting wavey. heypaul wispered "Its full of scorpions." "Look the bins have different sizes."
Another laborer came down to our end , we hid again. He emmptied a sack of rat tails into the bins. WE heard all this crinching sounds, like rice crispy cake treats. Yuuuuch!
As the laborer returned , we moved forward again. The next car looked like a farm box car. It was full of gages. We could see all these eyes looking back at us. There was a paper sign taped to the ceiling above us . It read "CAPYBARS".
We turned and looked back to the gondola, and taped to the ceiling was a sign, it read "SHRIMP". We jumped down to the tracks again on our side . We went to the wall and worked our way forward to just behind the deisel and crawled under the box car. heypaul dug into his backpack and pulled out these tiny perascopes. He gave each of us one so we could all see what was going on.
Somebody came out of the tower room wearing white vestments and a Jackie Gleason bus drivers hat. The hat had a badge that said in big letters "BRAIN DUDE". He steppped on a pedestal and glanced at his clipboard. He began ranting at his minions about how to do things his way! How his way was the only way, andif they didn't like it he would have their toungs cut out and have them all deported. At last he asked if there were any questions. They all answered "NO KINGFISH"
While we had our chance , we went behind the deisel up on the platform and broke in to a run for the door that led to the Real Roosevelt Station.
The Kingfish yelled after us to STOP!
We turned and in unison yelled back "SCREW YOU KINGFISH" "WE know who you are, we saw what you did, and we know were you live."
avid
Having made the public area, we peeked back through the door. The KINGFISH was still on his pedistal , now he was holdind up a big tool.
He demanded of his followers to identify it.
Somebody call out "Its a bastard file".
"No" cried the Kingfish. "Its a killfile, and maybe I'll use it, but I'm hooked and must find out what happens next.
avidheypaulavidheypaul
avidheypaulavidheypaul... hey man, you are continuing to blow our cover... first you're revealing all my disguises... now you are hinting at the merging of our minds... well, we might as well give it all away... this is the beginning of what was prophesized in the original outer limits episode "demon with a glass hand"... we are about to get the final glass finger... doug, avid, and heypaul are the obvious first 3...i will not reveal the remaining two fingers as the kybens will seek to capture them... the future of mankind depends on the reuniting of the 5 fingers... e pluribus unum...
god help the human race... heypaulaviddoug...
We ran for the surface stairway.
Surf , looked over his shoulder, to check our six. It was a good thing too!
We were not being followed, but chased! The mob chasing us seemed to be driven by the devil himself. Again Surf checked. The Kingfish was urging his minions to speed up and snare us before we could get away. They had problems, with their pants hanging low , the crotch was down near their knees. We ,however in or midnight black spandex caper suits, we were able to fly as fast as our dumpy fat little legs could pump. I speake for myself only.
Surf shouted the report ahead to hepaul, who was in the lead.
By the time I , followed by Surf, reached the street level, heypaul was ready for us. BMTman said impatiently "Come on, come on!"
heypaul had remover his foot-scooter powered by the weed wacker engin from his backpack. He telescoped it open to its maximum length and said "On the count of three" "ONE, TWO, THREE". We all took off pushing and hopped on when the teensie weensie engin caught and roared to life. I felt like I was training with the Jamican Bobsled team.
I yelled " Where are we going? heypaul yelled back"Confucius Square".
"why there" I asked. heypaul said it was the headquarters for the Pacific Rim Triade.
It all fell together, Seafood, south America, Cheap discount stores.
I asked "What do YOU Know about the Pacific Rim?"
He told how in their youth, BMTman and heypaul were American gardeners in Japan, Ironed suits for a Chinese lawyer in Shanghai and worked on a sheep ranch in Australia, and when they got fired from there , they circumcised kangaroos while riding pogo sticks for an orthodox zoo at Alicesprings.
They knew plenty about the Pacific Rim.
Confucius square is also another abandon tunnel. The Kingfish is a clever devil. We may need Jersy Mike. Does anybody have any suggestions??????
"heypaul , did you notice the Kingfish had a mouth full of gold teeth?" "Is he a drug dealer" heypaul said "NO, he just has a foul mouth and his teeth fell out!"
avid
We were speeding along the BQE, leaning into the curves, hanging on for dear life when we began to get pelted with rain. heypau;l took the off ramp for Greenpoint. We ride under the elevated expressway.
Once down at street level , heypaul pulled up to a Polish bakery were we loaded up Poppyseed and Pune Pastery. We took off again, each of us clutching our white paper bags. Surf had a double size bag, he picked up some for Jersey Mike, while heypaul took his order on his cellphone. The rain let up just in time for us to go over the Willie B. We passed a "J" and a "Z" .
We hung a left on Bowery, annd headed for Chinatown. When we crossed Canal St. we truned on to Pell St and grabbed the second alley on the right. We went behind the "JADE GATE" home style cooking , and ducked in the rear entrance. As we past the dining room I noticed it was full of gentlemen. All the tables were full, but nobody was eating. Chung, the head waiter called "Mr Lewis, party of three." I saw a guy get up, go up the stairs were he was met by three lovely waitresses and ushered into a private dining room. Hmmmmmm? They had a lot of private diningrooms. I guess they do a lot of business luncheons.
We headed for the kitchen , then down the celler steppes. In the dim light we found Jersey Mike. He was watering the Mungbeans. Surf asked him "what they were." Mike told him "they were for beansprouts." Surf asked" how come nobody is in the kitchen." Mike smiled at him and said" Nobody orders food here."
We went past the rows of beanspouts and came to a steel Yellow door about eight ft, wide and mounted on tracks so it could slide to one side. I asked heypaul howcome nobody stopped us? He said " I know the owner, we were trainees together in an erotic fortunecookie bakery in Hong Kong, We wrote so great stuff!"
The man keeps on amazing me!.
Behind the door was a long tunnel , we were traveling east according to my platform inspectors secrect compass/decoder ring.
After about 300ft heypaul, in the lead, turned to us and put his finger to his lips for silence. We move ahead slowly to were the tunnel opened to a larger tunnel. It was the Second Ave Subway. The lower portion completed years ago and forgotten.
Only it wasn't forgotten, not in the least.
Before us , on the opposite track was a beautiful site. BMTman was speechless, heypaul nodded his head, Surf and I just stared at each other and Jersey Mike drooled a little but quickly wiped his mouth with his sleeve.
It was the SOAC cars with EP019 and MOW335 all lined up. The EP019 looked a little different, it had those refigeration boxes you see on semis , mounted on each side of the door. IT had been converted to a refrigrator car. As we watched from our hidden position "THE KINGFISH" showed up on his freigth train . He had his minions quickly trans fer the "food stuffes" to the frig car.
Another car, a highly polished car with the number 1 on it pulled up.
From it stepped the mayor and a bunch of other socalled community leaders. They all haeded to the SOAC cars, and took their seat.
While this was going on we made our way to 335, and climbed in through the unlocked storm door. WE then headed to the other end of the car to peek into the refrigerated EP car. We saw "THE KINGFISH" standing inside as his minions finished loading. The doors closed, and we began to move. We saw "THE KINGFISH" pull up his collar and take out a pocket calculator and busy himself with the cases of "food stuffs".
heypaul turned to us and Said "WE now have the proof".
"What proof?" I said . "Proof of what?"
"Proof that THE KINGFISH is cold and calculating." he said. When your right, your right. I said.
We were so busy watching the KINGFISH we didn't see how we got on to the 6th Ave line, but we were passing all the stations on the express tracks. We picked up speed , but before we got to 34th St. we made a switch that none of us knew about. We made a turnout that suprised us all. I checked my compass, we were going WEST!
When we broke out into daylight we were in New Jersey, and racing across the meadowlands on the old Lackawanna line.
At this point heypaul turned to Jersey Mike and asked"Did you bring it?" "Sure did, its right here in my backpack, but first the pastry"
Surf handed over Mikes prune and poppey seed pastry and the trade was complete.
We made several stoppes before we got to Dover, we figured that was our destination. Thats were the pantograph ran out.
As we prepared to get ready to jump, BMTman put up a restraining hand and said "hide".
From his hidding place, heypaul extented his periscope out the window and described what he saw as we pulled into Dover.
There was the prototype C-1s with one of the FLs at the lead. The other backed up behind us and coupled up with a lurch. The platform was full of more politico's waiting for the lead consist to hack up.
When it did the crowd got on board and we began again. The protype, the SOACs , the EP019 refer, MOW 335 and the other FL loc. What a photo op. WE again headed west . heypaul busied himself checking the oil on his foot scooter, the rest of us took turns taking naps. BMTman turned to us and said "Half of the Democratic and Republican Party leaders are on this train with the mayor and THE KINGFISH"
With that I fell asleep.
avid
With a sudden lurch I was hurled back to reality. I was wiping the sleep from my eyes when I heard the music drifting back to us.
We were pulling out of Hackensac, after picking up the musicians and "refreshments" . We peeked into the refer car and saw THE KINGFISHS minions prepareing drinks and hot and cold Horses overies, BMTman called them Hors D'Oeuvres. I call them for what they are!
When the minions ent forward, Jersey Mike slipped off his jacket and tie and went forward to mingle and see want info he could pick up.
About fifteen long minutes went by before he returned with a tray of drinks, two boxes of "FAMOUS RAY'S PIZZA" and a tatto on his left arm of a fish with the famous Mick Jaggard lips and tounge and a crown. It seemed everyone was getting them and he was caught up by the crowd that was watching Sal Harpton gettig one on his butt.
It was all we could do to restrain Surf from running forward to get one next to his "Goofy"
We didn't trust the pizza, but Mike explained he stole them from the Minions. They knew what the food was made from, and brought their own. THe party forward got louder and seemed to last forever.
Soon we were winding our way through the Delaware Water Gap. At times while we made some curves we could see into the cars ahead. We saw a lot of skin and Harpton had several tattoes by now, but they were all of The KINGFISH. These were some SICK people. We took as many pictures as we could when ever we had a clear shot. heypaul remarked to BMTman about the one of Harpton and Hillery, "She buttered her own bread" heypaul finished with "Now let her sleep in it!" Surf said "No, Its "She made her own bed" and heypaul finished, "Now let her eat it!"
The Dems and Repubs were really mixing it up in a show of true bi-partisan merryment. The used the swaying and bumbing of the track to bump, caress and fondle any and everyone.
As we began the climb to Tobyhana , the guest went forward to change or put on more formal atire.
Our ears popped with the elevation and our train sped up. We were going down hill as I kept an eye trained on the cars ahead.
"Once ,twice, three, shoot" BMTman your out! Mike said. "Once, twice, three shoot" Your out avid, its between you and me said Mike as he looked at Surf. They were choosing over the last slice of pizza. Surf won and Mike grumbled ," It should be mine , I got them!"
Surf countered with ," Ya , but you got the tatto too! I'll save you the crust."
" Thanks "said Mike.
I think it was nice of Surf to share like that.
One of the minions came back into the MOW car carring five tuxedos and five holloween masks and put them in front of us without saying a word. When he was going thruogh the storm door he turned back, gve us the thumbs up sign, then continued on. heypaul said " I know that guy from some where.
We got dressed just in time, B,tmn took long time in the shower, but he needed it. We were getting closer to Scranton and Steamtown. We switched off the main line and were heading into Steamtown, right for the Roundhouse. As we looked forward , we could see hugh circus tent over the turntable and we drove straight through it.
NOW WHAT?
avid
We went straight across the turntable and into the carbarn and came to a halt.
We were stunned , all of the tracks leading to the turn table had the missing "Church Pew Seating " cars from Montreal . They created a gallery all around the turntable.
The "Guests" began to stream past us heading for the gallery. Apparently some were veterans of this event, because they hurried to get the best seats in the front rows. There was some pushing and shoving and cursing, but "THE KINGFISHS" minions soon brought every thing back under control. The gallery filled while waiters circulated filling and refilling the glasses of the celebrants. There was never an empty glass.
When it was safe, we to headed for the gallery, but were put to work. The crowd were in evening wear, while we were dressed like "THE KINGFISHS" minions, Waiters! We each grabbed trays and began to circulate. What a sight all those political adversaries under one tent. A real circus!
The "KINGFISH" took the center of the turntable and started his speech welcoming the returning guests from previous years and introducing the NEW attendees to the group. He then announced the Menu to his audiance. Chichen cordonblu, Chicken Kiev, jumbo shrimp, Veal tartar and a medally of fresh local vegetables and salades.
heypaul held up a handful of black crow feathers and mouthed the word "chicken?"
Then it became clear , "THE KINGFISH " was feeding them crow, rat and scorpions. They deserved it for what followed next.
As the meals were served the pit of the turntable featured pitbul fights, chicken fights and snake feeding with coral snakes and king snakes. The crowd loved it and stuffed themselves with vermin and varments.
The Kingfish wasn't so bad after all.
He next announced that desert would soon arrive, and disappeared from view.
The minions soom brought out 5 Gal. plastic buckets full of partially frozen jello nuggets and put a bucket between each couple so they could held themselves. The newcomers began to eat the jello, while the oldtimers waited.
The pit was cleared of the remenants of the last contest ans the lights dimmed. A hush went over the crowed as a sinlge spotlight centered on a door in the pit. It opened and out stepped a figure wearing a full dark shield motorcycle helmet and a cape. The figure circled the pit once and removed the cape with a flourish and tossed it to a waiting minion. Beneath the cape the masked figure was wearing a thong and a hugh "KINGFISH" tattoo on his chest. He held both arms high above his head and began to run.
High above the pit was a large digital clock, counting down from the five minute point, 5:00, 4:59, 4:58, 4:57....... The old timers began to hurl the jello at the running figure. Soon the entire crowd was pelting him with soft and semi-soft chunks of jello. Cheers went up as choice shots were made. Several times he slipped , cheers went up! He slipped again and again.
I saw heypaul , Mike and Surf huddled together so I joined them.
heypaul sent mike to the exit , mike was carrying his and heypauls backpacks. heypaul wispered "hurry" . Then heypaul instructed Surf to go to the kitchen and grab several bottles of vegetable oil.
BMTman was helping the minions push a hugh cart to the edge of the pit. The he ran to the fuse box .
The crowd soon ran out of jello, they were in a frenzy. They began to leave their seats and headed for the cart. The cart was full of cages and buckets. The buckets were full of scorpions the cages full of rats! They began to empty the cages and buckets into the pit.
Man this guy is weird, Imean really Kinkie! Who is this guy.
A terrified scream echoed in the pit, rats and scorpions slipping and running in every direction. I tried to edge closer but heypaul pulled me towards the entrance we fist came through.
Mike had been very busy. befor us was the footscooter, with two engines and an outrigger, mounted on the tracks HI-Rail style. BMTman hit the lights as Surf came busting out of the kitchen with an arm load of Canole oil. The last thing BMTman cutting a single rope and the tent came crashing down.
The place turned into a beehive of fury. We were being chased by the maddest crowd I"d ever seen. WE took off pushing the HI-RAILER till the engins roared into life. They had a deeper tone . I asked heypaul "Howcome the noisey engins? He said they were Mikes Tubor Charged deisel weed wacker engins , His own design. WE piled on and headed up the Roaring Brook Valley, back to Tobyhanna. We were beging persued by SUV HI-RAILER . We were using fuel fast. They were gaining
Can you work in something about an interlocking tower or a trip down the Bel Del line. remember that south Jersey is a political vaccume where any big name politicion will loose his/her power and die.
heypaul was working the throttle, he had it wide open, but as the grade began to increase, we began to slow.
The SUV was gaining! Sal Harpton was on the roof hanging on to the roof rack looking like the bulldog on the hood of a Mack truck. Other pols were on the the running boards shouting into the night what they planned to do to us. Still the were gaining.
One engin coughed as it was almost out of fuel. heypaul instructed Mike to pour one of the bottles of Canole oil into its tank. It coughed once more, then held a steady drone.
heypaul asked him to please top off the other engin. Mike quickly complied.
The SUV edged closer. They were now about fifteen feet behind us. Their high/low beams blinking up and down, horn blowing. This wasn't going to be nice.
Sal Harpton stood up and prepared to leap on board the foot scooter.
BMTman handed a bottle of Canole oil to Surf and took one himself. They cracked the seals , poped the lids and began to squirt the rails on each side.
The effect was immeadiate. The engin in the SUV reved real high as the Suv lost traction and its speed dropped dramaticly. Harpton took a desprate chance and lost. He leaped into the air, but fell short. The forward motion carried the SUV over the little blimp. I'm sure he survived, but I think he'll have to get those tattooes on his butt redone. The distance between us widened and the headlights dimmed in the night. We had plenty of fuel and once past Mt. Poccono it was all down hill. Mike begged us to head for Philly.
It sounded good , so off we went, but the Kingfish has a long memory.I always wanted a Philidelphia Cream Cheese Steak Sankwitch.
............................THE END...................................
avid
What route did we take. The Old DL&W route via Hackettstown and Washington or the Slateford cuttoff and can you explain how in your world those 2 routes were put back in service or is the special train able to operate without tracks?
Artistic License granted by the man from U.N.I.O.N. via Hackettstown
avid
Dover New Jersey rocks. Its much better than Dover Delaware or that one in Englande.
According to the New England Transit Web site:
"Cars removed from service 07/11/00 for inspection and investigation following the derailment of 3805
at Brookline Village on 07/11/00 and 3804 at Elliot on 07/07/00"
There are currently seven cars accepted, and eight in acceptance testing (up one from last week).
No further information as to when they may be placed back in service, meaning that SubTalkers visiting Boston this Sunday will probably not get to ride one. However they can be seen at the Riverside terminal yard.
Let's assume we're designing a hypothetical new subway system in Chicagoland that is very modern, with 8-car trains of large (75' long X 10' wide) subway cars, and with large, modern stations that serve as transit hubs for connections to busses, park-n-ride garages, and possibly commuter rail and/or local light rail. In other words, something like BART, Washington Metro or MARTA.
I envision it complementing the existing CTA and Metra systems rather than replacing them; the smaller existing L trains would continue to serve local stops (making stops about every half-mile or so, as they do now) within the city itself, while the "second system" would serve relatively close-in suburban destinations within such as Schaumburg, Gary Regional Airport, etc, while making only express stops within the city itself (say, about every 2-3 miles or so), with free transfers to the local trains. An express surcharge would apply to destinations beyond the area served by the local trains. Metra would continue to serve the most distant collar counties, making only a couple stops within the city itself.
(And yes, ideally both systems would be built to the same specifications, but I think the existing L trains are much too small for the type of high-capacity service I have in mind, and upgrading the entire existing system to fit larger trains would basically involve knocking down the enitre L and rebuilding it from the ground up, including the elimination of the Loop and/or the demolition of scores of buildings in the city adjacent to the ROW's. Nobody wants that.)
My questions:
1) About what would be the maximum practical range of this system, in terms of miles from the Chicago Loop? Let's assume all "second system" routes are through-routed through the downtown subways rather than terminating there. Roughly how far do BART, MARTA and DC Metro extend from the downtowns of their respective cities?
2) What would be some appropriate major destinations within that range not currently served by rapid transit (Woodfield, Northbrook, Gary, etc.)?
3) Just out of curiousity, how fast is the fastest subway train in the world and where is it? I'm talking about speeds actually attained in regular service, rather than some hypothetical maximum speed.
4) Does this proposal make any sense, or am I full of it?
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Boston, MA
Interesting; the closest analogy I can think of to your proposal is Paris' RER (Réseau Express Regional) system, a sort of express rapid transit system, built over the last 35 years or so, intermediate between the Metro and the suburban lines. See:
http://www.ratp.fr/Pla_q/Pla_r/Pla_r_rsx_g/rer.htm
As for Chicago, I can think of several under-served near-suburban areas: The southwest suburbs; Schaumburg (which may actually get a Blue Line extension in the next twenty years, but I'm not holding my breath); the Skokie Valley; northwest Indiana south of the South Shore. Within the city, the greatest unfulfilled need is direct commuter rail access to the North Michigan Avenue area, a major employment and entertainment center pretty remote from the present suburban stations. My longstanding fantasy proposal for Chicago has been a sort of distributor loop subway for the main-line suburban operations, permitting electrified descendants of Metra's ex-IC, Burlington, North Western, Rock Island, and Milwaukee services to serve stations in the west Loop (approximately the present Union Station site), northeast Loop (roughly the Randolph Street site), and near north side (roughly Chicago and Michigan Avenues). The construction needed for the downtown portion of your regional system might tie in nicely with this idea.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
One Chicago transit improvement that would be nice would be adding a couple miles on the end of each existing El line to connect with the nearest Metra station (where practical of course). Extending the Congress line west of Des Plaines to connect directly with the West Metra line that serves Wheaton, West Chicago, Geneva, etc. has been a dream of mine since I was 7 or 8 years old (I grew up riding that Metra line). Another thing I have though Chicago needed as of the last few years was a couple of circumferential Light Rail lines. There are Major Employment Centers in places like Schaumburg and some of the other areas along 294, a close-in LRT that connects with all of the Els and a 294 LRT that connects with all Metra lines would be nice.
www.nycsubway.org > SubTalk > Re: Hypothetical CTA "Second System" (137119)
Light Rail Rules! wrote:
> One Chicago transit improvement that would be nice
> would be adding a couple miles on the end of each
> existing El line to connect with the nearest Metra
> station (where practical of course).
Right now, the only such connections are between Metra's UP-North line and the Purple Line at a couple of points in Evanston, and between the UP-West line and the Green Line at Oak Park. The demolition of the eastern mile of the East 63rd branch of the green line ended a connection to Metra Electric, though that was always somewhat theoretican anyway.
> Extending the Congress line west of Des Plaines
> to connect directly with the West Metra line that
> serves Wheaton, West Chicago, Geneva, etc. has been
> a dream of mine since I was 7 or 8 years old (I grew
> up riding that Metra line).
If the idea is simply to give UP-West passengers a chance to transfer to the CTA short of the Loop, the Oak Park connection noted above serves the same function. It should also be noted that in the late Fifties the CTA developed a serious proposal to operate the former CA&E as far as West Chicago as an extension of the (then) Congress line, which would have included connections with the (then) C&NW at several points, much as you propose.
> Another thing I have though Chicago needed as of the
> last few years was a couple of circumferential Light
> Rail lines. There are Major Employment Centers in
> places like Schaumburg and some of the other areas
> along 294, a close-in LRT that connects with all of the
> Els and a 294 LRT that connects with all Metra lines
> would be nice.
I doubt that light rail technology has been considered for it (since it would share trackge with the EJ&E's freight operation), but Metra does have a blue-sky plan for circumferential suburb-to-suburb service, connecting the Metra BNSF and UP-Northwest lines. Closer in, there has been a recent planning study for a crosstown rapid transit line following the Belt Railway of Chicago ROW at about 4600 west, connecting Midway with Jefferson Park.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
whoever said anything about sharing track with the EJ&E's freight? 90% of the circumferential light rails would be new trackage, grade-seperated - only small portions would be in-street near the MECs to provide better service then the median of 294. Metra lines and heavy rail would both be too expensive for this kind of service, and since it doesn't serve downtown it would only justify four-car light rail trains. As for the Congress line - the EJ&E plan would have REALLY sucked had it been put into effect...there'd be no prarie path! I do'nt know if anyone else on this message board has used it but i learned how to ride a bike on the prarie path out in the western suburbs... finally a couple posts have been made that suggest different ways of serving the north Michigan Ave. area and the idea of a heavy-rail loop connecting to all the metra stations is great, but it would have to be proof-of-payment. THe metra platforms are NOT fare-controlled areas and therefore it would have to be operated like a light rail line but be heavy rail with 8-10 car trains. fare might be, oh, say 1.50 without a metra ticket, but it qwould have to be operated by metra and not by the CTA.
Metra lines and heavy rail would both be too expensive for this kind of service, and since it doesn't serve downtown it would only justify four-car light rail trains. As for the Congress line - the EJ&E plan would have REALLY sucked had it been put into effect.
I beg to differ. The ROW and tracks already exist for the proposed EJ&E route, whereas you seem to be proposing an entire new grade-seperated line on a new ROW. Sounds pretty expensive to me. And this proposal is still on the drawing boards; I wouldn't be surprised to see Metra trains running on the EJ&E tracks within 5-10 years from now.
finally a couple posts have been made that suggest different ways of serving the north Michigan Ave. area and the idea of a heavy-rail loop connecting to all the metra stations is great, but it would have to be proof-of-payment. THe metra platforms are NOT fare-controlled areas and therefore it would have to be operated like a light rail line but be heavy rail with 8-10 car trains. fare might be, oh, say 1.50 without a metra ticket, but it qwould have to be operated by metra and not by the CTA.
The heavy-rail loop I suggested wouldn't actually share tracks or platforms with the Metra trains, but would simply be adjacent to the stations (similar to the Lex at Grand Central or the 1/2/3/9 at Penn). Fare control would be by turnstiles, as usual.
-- David
Boston, MA
well now METRA trains on the EJ&E tracks wouldn't be bad - but with metra midday service might sound like hourly or something, whereas light rail would be 10-15 minutes. and the EJ&E tracks don't come close enough to the MECs.
Part of my proposal would be a crosstown rapid transit line (heavy rail) that would begin around Northbrook Court, connect to a major transit hub at the present Skokie Swift terminal at Dempster, and continue south roughly along Cicero Avenue to Ford City. From there it would turn east and eventually terminate in Gary, Indiana. It would have both local and express service; local trains would run between Dempster and a new terminal at the South Works site (which would be a perfect spot for a Coney Island-style urban amusement park similar to Chicago's late Riverside Park). The idea of a crosstown rapid transit line along Cicero Avenue, connecting to all the existing CTA routes, has been floated in a number of official long-term proposals, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Although my proposal involves grade-seperated heavy rail lines, I've also been toying with the idea of introducing light rail lines along some of the wider avenues in the city such as Ashland and Western.
The idea of a circumferential route serving Metra trains in the more distant suburbs is actually already in the works; current plans call for implementing commuter rail service on the underused EJ&E tracks that circle the region. It's still officially in the "study" phases, but unlike East Coast cities such as NYC and Boston, things eventually do tend to get built in Chicago.
My main concern about focusing too heavily on circumferential routes, however, would be spawning even more runaway suburban sprawl that already has a chokehold on the region. I think the main objective of any regional mass transit plan should be to reinforce existing close-in urban areas rather than opening up even more cornfields for construction of the next dozen or so Wal-Mart stores. This would require far more long-term thinking than has so far been evident by the region's politicians and planners.
-- David
Boston, MA
I'm a little leery about the idea of the Blue Line being extended to Schaumburg; it's already a fairly long ride from O'Hare to downtown and the trains can get rather crowded before they even get to Cumberland. Hordes of riders heading to/from Woodfield Mall would only worsen the misery, at least without some sort of express service. That's where my idea would come in: Local trains would terminate at O'Hare as they do now, while the larger express trains would continue to Schaumburg (and going in the opposite direction, most likely head out to Oak Brook via the Congress branch after passing through downtown).
About connecting the Metra stations with Michigan Avenue, etc.: I'm still pondering what to do about that problem. Right now my inclination would be to keep the Metra terminals pretty much where they are now, but have some sort of "outer Loop" subway or surface line that would begin at Navy Pier, stop at Michigan, and continue across the river near the Merchandise Mart and head south on Canal Street and connect with Union Station and C&NW Station. From there it would turn back east and connect with LaSalle Street Station, and possibly either terminate near the new Museum Campus or head up Michigan Avenue and form an actual loop. Obviously there would be free connections to the various rapid transit lines that it intersects. The nicest thing about this idea is that, for the most part, the ROW already exists.
-- David
Boston, MA
Dave, I think you're right. Extending the Blue Line to Schaumburg probably would create more discomfort for local riders. However, the existing right-of-way between O'Hare and downtown (and along the Congress branch) is limited to two tracks. Owing to the fact that much of the route operates either in expressway medians or subways, adding express tracks in each direction would be outlandishly expensive (as well as extremely disruptive). The only alternative would be a separate right-of-way exclusively for the express trains.
In many Chicago neighborhoods, CTA service has been drastically reduced over the past three years. There are many Chicagoans for whom transit is their lifeline. I believe that our first priority should be the provision of dependable transit service for those most in need of it.
Concerning the need for better service between O'Hare and Schaumburg, a light rail line would be more realistic than heavy rail. The resulting increase in ridership between O'Hare and downtown could be accommodated by increasing the frequency of service on the Blue Line.
-Dan Terkell
Chicago Dan writes:
>>>Dave, I think you're right. Extending the Blue Line to Schaumburg probably would create more discomfort for local riders. However, the existing right-of-way between O'Hare and downtown (and along the Congress branch) is limited to two tracks. Owing to the fact that much of the route operates either in expressway medians or subways, adding express tracks in each direction would be outlandishly expensive (as well as extremely disruptive). The only alternative would be a separate right-of-way exclusively for the express trains.<<<<
Having just ridden the Congress Line not more than a week ago, I was surprised to notice that the ROW in the Congress expressway is easily wide enough for four tracks for much of the way out to Forest Park. In fact some side tracks had been installed for MOW equipment in the wide space between the tracks and the freeway lanes. I suspect this was probably the original plan, to allow the CA&E to run express through western Chicago to the loop. And this is especially true given the number of abandoned stations on the line which could be demolished to provide more clearance in tight situations (esp. Kostner).
Take a look next time you're out there.
I can't say this applies to the O'Hare line, but we shouldn't make broad generalizations that aren't true. OTOH, the slow stretch on the old el could be replaced by further extension down the JFK median and a new tie in to the subway near Division (the blind trackways already exist for extending the subway further).
It does seem silly that all the proposals have the Schaumburg line do not have it serving O'Hare. I would think there'd be quite some ridership wishing to make that journey - certainly enough to justify tunneling out from the present terminal to the north side of the airport. Otherwise, the airport people mover will have to be extended to the Schaumburg line.
Andrew Byler
From what I've seen, three-tracking or four-tracking the existing O'Hare Branch to downtown not feasible without multimillion dollar construction. (Which to me isn't fatal to the extension of the line to Woodfield -- the Blue Line, while busy, is not at capacity. If you can run the trains from the present line to Woodfield in 15-20 minutes, the time to downtown is about an hour, making an express a good idea but not a necessity.)
There IS most likely enough room for another track in between stations on the Kennedy Expressway median portion of the line. However, I doubt there is room to add four tracks, or even a third passing track at stations, without taking lane space from the Kennedy. Which would, of course, put IDOT into absolute fits!
And then there's the subway portions of the line: two separate tunnels with no room in either for an additional track. That's true not only of the old Dearborn Subway but the "new" Kimball Avenue (Logan Square-Belmont) connecting subway. Of course, a second pair of tubes could be added to both, but then you're practically talking about a new subway line, not using an old one.
I agree with you that if they are going to extend the Blue Line, all trains SHOULD serve O'Hare. However, tunnelling under existing airport buildings, roads, and tarmac while not significantly disrupting air service could cost a **multiple** of the cost of extending the tracks the rest of the way by median strip to Woodfield. Perhaps they could build a (relatively) inexpensive connection to the existing line at Rosemont to start off. Then, when the line has built up ridership, the constituency would be there to justify the O'Hare tunneling. The Rosemont connection could be retained as a bypass for accidents or other emergencies.
North Michigan could be served by using the one time freight spur that served the Trib and Daily News presses(paper). In fact forever ago there was short lived RDC service there as an experiment IIRC. As to express/local, I have always believed that more coordinated fare and transfer between the mainline RR and city transit should be encouraged.-- For Instancethe ex IC has unused capacity.
As to BART distances/speed, regularly trains run 75-80. The furthest out stations are 35 + miles from downtown SF. (This is slippery because like unto the State St Sub BART has no specific terminal in the CBD but rather continues out to a different suburb.
In CTA's dreams in the 50's they talked about a Western Ave Crosstown. In a more realistic future, maybe the old PRR Panhandle ROW (the wide green patch east of Western Ave with utility poles) might be useable for a rapid transit line. LRV on the street would probably serve local use better but not be much faster than the bus.
Yesterday, I was operating on the 5 line. On my first trip downtown, I passed the R142 set operating on the 6 line at Brooklyn Bridge. Looked nice, but seemed awfully bright. On the second trip, I passed an R142 set running on the 2 line between 110/Lenox & 96/Bway. The silly thing blinded me as it came around the curve. But the real question is - Why were there only 5 cars? This seems to be a good way to drive passengers crazy. This was about 2:30PM and the deuce was headed back to the Bronx.
I saw that set. 6306-6310 were operating. One would guess that the Bombardier Personnel wanted only half a headache to worry about. 10 Cars = A Full Headache? I hate to say it, but the cars are still being worked on with diffiuclty I'm sure and unfortunately haven't progressed as the Kawasaki Cars are now in the 30 Day Test Mode.
Not to say that those R-142s aren't going to be on the road carrying passengers, it's just a matter of when?
-Stef
The curse on the 2 line strikes again! That's why the Bombardier cars are having so much trouble. That damn curse just won't go away! Exactly what's happening now with the Bombardier cars? Is it still that turnstle interface thing or is it now something else?
Be patient my friend. The cars are just going through teething pains right now. Remember the R-62As in 1984. They're the best damn fleet on the road now....
-Stef
The five car set was IN Service.
>The five car set was IN Service.
How can a 5 Car Train be in service? It isn't supposed to be carrying passengers as of yet.
Speaking of which, the entire 10 Car Train is on the road right now.
-Stef
Alex,
The R-142 train just passed through northbound as of 11:20PM with Bombardier personnel aboard the train, making simulated train stops. I sure hope they get the bugs worked out of them.....
-Stef
If you're on the 5 line..
how come you wind up at the curve
between 110Lenox and 96th Bway?
Re-route due to swith problems at 125/Lex.
Did you go around the SF outer loop or to Flatbush?
Down the 7th Ave express to just N of Chambers, where we were crossed over to the local and discharged, light to the Ferry on the outer loop, crossed to the inner loop after south Ferry and back in service at Bowling Green.
1. Does this occur relatively often (i.e. once a week?)
2. If the consist going via the SF outer loop happens to be one of the two R-62a trains, will the train run in service to South Ferry?
3. Whatever the train is, if a railfan after seeing a 5 arrive at Chambers all of a sudden had an urge to go to the East Side, would you "look the other way" while clearing the train (once a C/R said the train was heading back uptown via the East Side, mayhaps an invitation?)
1. No.5 trains on the No.2 Line happens only when there is a problem with the Lexington Ave Service which has been every other day.
There is a No.2 that runs as a No.5 Train every morning for the AM Rush Hour.
2. If it is a R62A on the No.5 the last stop is still Chambers St. They just don't want the No.5 to make stops between South Ferry and Chambers Street unless it is needed. Like a big gap in No.1 Service.
Dave answered the first two, and here's the answer to #3 - NO.
If anything were to happen, it would be my butt in the sling. i like this job too much to risk on some stupid little thing that is easily avoidable.
See today's Washington Post, available on-line at www.washingtonpost.com, for an article on water intrusion into a tunnel in the Washington Metro system. This may interest those here who recently were discussing old NYC transit tunnels.
I can't say as I'm that surprised about where the worse locations are--Although, what it fails to mention is that the portion from just north of Dupont Circle south is older than the portion north of Dupont Circle....In fact, if you look at the station design of Dupont Circle vs.....say....Woodley Park, you'll notice that the Woodley Pk. station and those north have only 4 pre-cast panels across the width of the station as opposed to several blocks forming the arch of the older stations...They did this because it was less expensive...well, it looks as though taking the cheap way is going to haunt us....Also, between Dupont Circle & Woodley Park, it is said that where the tunnel goes under Rock Creek, the distance between the stream bed and the tunnel roof is very thin, in fact, I remember articles talking about leaks in that section while it was under construction. On a different note, back in the late 70's, when the tunnel sections were being laid under the Washington Channel for the Yellow Line between L'enfent Plaza and the Potomac River, there was a flood of sorts where water flowed along the track bed all the way back to L'enfent Plaza, then flooded the lower level of the station flooding the Orange/ Blue Lines which were in operation. In L'enfent Plaza, the lower level (Orange/Blue) opened in 1977 and the upper level (Yellow/Green) didn't make its debut until 1981.
Bad water situation at Mt.Vernon Square station (yellow/green line) as well (six-paneled arch station there). Half of the panels have water seepage into the lowermost coffer.
wayne
I usually ride the F between Queens and Manhattan every day. I wouldn't complain too much about the R-46 trains. They seem fairly reliable, and the air conditioning works. I don't like the bucket seats, but overall they are reasonable trains.
Except for one thing: They're pretty ugly. Anyone else think these are the ugliest trains in the system?
And I don't like that digital readout of the letter/line identification. There's no color, and it's hard to see the letter of the train from across the platform (say if you're on an E or F and you want to see whether that's a G or R on the local tracks.)
Thoughts?
Andrew :)
I don't think the R46 is the ugliest car in the system. First of all the interior walls of the R46, as bad as they can be, still beat the wonderful TA yellow of the R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42. The side exterior of it looks sorta like and R68 (and R44). But, the problem is that the R46 always has the circular "depressions". The R46 isn't the worst, but there are better. Ala me (had to do that). Although I can use some new interior panels and a black floor. Some new windows too.
R-46's are the ugliest? Perhaps those interiors are a bit too 1970's-ish, with the woodgrain formica and all. But want to talk really ugly? Catch the front of an R-40 slant that hasn't been washed recently. It looks like some sort of Sci-fi movie monster.
Moving Platform:
I think the R-110B test train is absolutely hideous looking. I'm glad that they will not perpetuate the exterior styling, if you could call it that with the R-143.
BMTJeff
The 110-A, however, has some nice touches not found on the R-142, such as the corrugations (a la R-44) below the windows. The R-142 has a rather bland exterior, IMHO. (Except for the goofy headlight bezels)
Moving Platform:
I'd take the bland styling of the R-142s over the styling of the R-110Bs any day. The R-110Bs in my own opinion are the ugliest looking subway cars I've ever seen.
BMTJeff
Do you know what the R143's exterior styling will look like then? I read it was supposed to look like Boston's Red Line Bombardier cars, even though all of the 143s are being built by Kawasaki.
R142 #2:
I wonder what the Boston Red Line Bombardier cars look like. I hope they're not uglier than the R-110Bs.
BMTJeff
...............the ugliest trains are the ones without railfan windows ..........
More photos of the MBTA Red Line
I'm a big fan of the Bombardier 01800's; I think they're the by far the nicest looking trains on the T system, inside and out. (But then, I also think the R-110B's are the nicest looking trains of the NYC system, so we obviously have much different tastes.)
-- David
Boston, MA
The Nth Ward
David Cole:
The Boston Red Line trains still look better than the R-110Bs in my own opinion.
BMTJeff
They're pretty handsome, if you ask me.
While the picture is small, have a look.
http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/A1C.htm
Anyone seen the Bombardier Intro page lately? Interesting Macromedia Flash intro .....
--Mark
ANYTHING PAINTED ALL RED, WHITE OR YELLOW
all of the los angeles red line subway cars & no railfan window !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The exteriors of the cars aren't so bad; the interiors are in putrid colors
.........ugly is in the eye of the beholder & i did not think the marta trains were so good looking either !!
bart unique ok but not stunning ( the blue & green line cars look better in los angeles to me )
however the good old classic pre world war 2 subway cars & the PE system in peris california........thats beautiful !!
The R-44/46 cars to me look great (except for that damned grey stripe on the former), I'm just bored with the R-46 because I have to take it every single day before I get to whatever I want to railfan on. The only thing good about them is that I've figured out how to unlock the end door, and enjoy surprising people in the next car who happen to be leaning on it. I'd have to say the ungliest cars (interior wise) would be the R-62 and 68, but that's only because of those damned scratches.
I guess the "Scratchitti" morons have discoved that their knife blades get duller when scratching the R-44/46's formica than the stainless steel of the R-62/68's.
Maybe they should use Formica on the R62 interiors, especially on the cars headed for the 7 train. Spruce 'em up by giving them new interiors.
....and hopefully not that pukey tan color!!
I put in an employee suggestion to do just that: replace the R-62 through R-68A interior walls with melamine. It was rejected: basically, NYCT doesn't want to spend the money.
David
With those ultra-shiny walls, the R-68's are blinding.
Overall, I'd say the R-68 is a hair uglier than the R-46, although I do appreciate the rollsigns.
My vote goes for the R-32's. To me they look like elongated tool sheds on wheels.
A face only a mother could love. :-)
Outside of New York, the MBTA's Orange Line and Blue Line cars certainly won't win any points for being photogenic, but I'm sure they looked a lot better when they were brand new. However, I'd say they haven't aged very gracefully.
-- David
Boston, MA
The Nth Ward
Are these still in serice? If they are they look completely different now.
Andrew
I'm not certain, but I remember boarding something that looked a lot like that at 86th Street going uptown under CPW for a Yankees game in August of last year. I suppose it could have been an R-38.
-- David
Boston, MA
R-32's still pop up on the "C" train now and then. Last summer (also going to a Yankee game) I was on a mixed consist of R-32's and R-38's..and the R-32's were NOT the GE rehabs; they were the garden-variety rehabs.
The "C" train is about 60% R32; 40% R38 with one R110B thrown in.
wayne
Yes, they are, they make up the bulk of the "E" fleet and occasionnally on the "C" and "N". They look exactly like that now except for some minor differences in the front signage.
It's funny but when I rode an R32 train on the N line for the first time after GOH, I didn't recognize them with the digital signs and without the blue doors. They also look very diiferent on the inside now than from before GOH. So do the R38s, 40s (all) and 42s. GOH gave them more plain-looking interiors.
Minor differences in signage? Yeah, like now you can't tell whether that train that's pulling in is a C or an E!
Or an N or an R, or an A or a C, or a G or an R, or a Q or an O...
A is easy to distinguish from a C; however, that pixel display on the R-32s leaves a lot to be desired. It needs to be improved.
Those whatchamacallits on the 6 line...
I hate to say it but I think what they did to the R-32's make them pretty damn ugly. Its hard to believe they're the same trains that looked so good years ago with the blue doors. Why they changed the front destination signs to those little route number letter signs is beyond m.
>>>Why they changed the front destination signs to those little route number letter signs is beyond m. <<<
They had to change the front bulkhead Destination/Route signs because the cars were retrofitted w/AC. Installation of the A/C units blocked the access to the bulkhead (where the cranks were to change signs). The crappy digital sign was the compromise solution. Do not know how they used to change signs on that one set of R-38s that had A/C originally. BTW, the introduction of A/C is what gave us the large route indication that we all know and love as they could no longer put rollsigns in the bulkhead.
Peace,
ANDEE
Couldn't the clever designers have left a space between the A/C unit and the bulkhead so as to keep the original bulkhead signs?
Then they'ed look like redbirds, or like 8660.
At least the Redbirds were able to keep their bulkhead route and destination curtains, thank goodness. Not to mention their marker lights, FWIW.
I hate to say it but I think what they did to the R-32's make them pretty damn ugly. Its hard to believe they're the same trains that looked so good years ago with the blue doors. Why they changed the front destination signs to those little route number letter signs is beyond me.
By looking at old pictures of the R-32, R-38, R-40 and R-42 in their original condition and comparing them to the way they look now, all I can say is that they were butchered. Those cars were totally destroyed asthetically.
Their performance is supposedly much better now than pre-GOH, but they look so bland and dull now. Their original looks were very attractive and graceful, especially the large door windows on the R-40/R-42 and the blue doors and classic interior of the R-32 and R-38.
Those whatchamacallits on the 6 line...
The Repulsive Rustbirds?
They look exactly like that now except for some minor differences in the front signage.
Every end looks like a blind end now.
--Mark
Yep, that sounds about right. I sure wish they'd bring back the blue doors. That was their trademark.
I don't consider those differences minor. What was definitely a beautiful train became considerably less so with GOH. And the route designation, where once clear, can only be read now at close range and with 20/20 vision.
They still are in service, except the front letter is a barely visible digital sign, no more marker or exp-local lights, and doors are no longer blue.
Here's what they look like now (only post-GOH photo on the site)
(That's the only one, really? Wow. Anyone want to go out and get more pictures of R-32's? :-)
-Dave
Oh yeah! I've seen those. Nah. I think the R46s are uglier. Just my orpinion.
:)Andrew
I don't like the R-32s much. They keep confusing me with the digital sign and the small destination board. As all of you know, most R-32s on the BMT Broadway line are N trains, but a few are R trains. I've gotten on a few of the R's not knowing it wasn't an N until the next stop. This brings me to my question. Why did the MTA replace the front letter?
Conversely, anybody else ever ridden an R46 as an 'N'? I boarded one a couple of years ago at the Astoria Broadway stop and rode to 42nd Street. It was strange to see 'N' in the digital roll sign. This has only happened to me once. Anybody else?
Assuming the R-46's are the only trains with the digital destination signs, then I'm pretty sure I rode one on the Sea Beach line into Manhattan from Coney Island last summer. I'm not 100% certain about that, but I vaguely recall watching the text change back and forth because it was about the only interesting thing to look at. (This was rather late at night, and there isn't much to look at anyway because the line is mostly underground.)
-- David
Boston, MA
But the signs on the trains don't say "The Nth Ward" on them. :-)
At the risk of being accused of spreading "BS" again, let me just say that I *think* they were "R-46" trains. To put it in the vernacular, they *definitely were* running a consist of the rolling stock that makes up the bulk of today's 'R', 'G', and 'F' equipment as an 'N' train.
It could have happened, since they store a good number of R-46s at Coney Island between rush hours, overnight, and on weekends for the F. One must have somehow wandered onto the N, maybe because of a shortage of operational cars. Its almost as rare an occurrence as an R-40M/42 mixed consist on the N, which I have ridden (during the Willy B rehab).
BTW, unless you look somewhat closely R-46s appear identical to R-44s.
The telltale sign of an R-44: The wide belt rail is made of painted steel, not stainless steel, as on the R-46
Inside, doesn't the faux wood give it away? But I always forget which has it and which doesn't, so that trick doesn't work very well for me.
But both of them have faux wood in all the same places.
OK. Are there a lot of R-44s on the 'A'? I think I rode one today from 14th St. uptown to 42nd St., and (because of this thread, mostly) tried to find differences between the (layperson terms again) 'R' (R-46?) trains and 'A' (R-44???) trains, which I think are *VERY* similar in outward appearance. (Even researching on this site I have trouble distinguishing, since many of the photos pre-date today's trains' appearance.) So, today, I did notice the *painted* gray strip on the side of the 'A', which I don't see on the side of the 'R'. The other difference between the 'A' and 'R' ('G', & 'F') trains (and remember I'm only talking R-44(?) vs. R-46(?) here), which I noticed years ago, was that glass pane, placed above the faux wood, by the doors. The 'A' has it (R-44?) and the 'R' (R-46?) does not.
Your observations are correct.
In addition, the R-44 and R-46 are not currently on the same lines, so:
If it's on the A or Rockaway S: It's an R-44
If it's on the F, G, R or maybe even E: It's an R-46
More differences: The area above the storm door is metal on the R-44, wood paneling in the R-46. The cab door is the push-in kind on the R-44, the R-46 has a sliding door. Here's a real obscure one: There are 2 seats with arm rests adjacent to the R-46 cab on each side, while there are 3 with no arm rest on the R-44. Not a small enough detail? How about the vapor key hole to open one door at the #2 end of the cars? It is in a rectangular panel on the R-46 while the R-44 has a round panel with 3 lights (red and green).
The R-44s on Staten Island have no glass but the frame above the faux wood by the doors, tinted windows, no side dest. signs, and have no gray stripe.
I just remembered a few more differences:
The rubber moldings on the R-44 and R-46 storm doors are different.
The arm rests by the windows also are different.
The side fluorescent light tracks. In the middle of each ad area, on the bottom, there is a small thing dividing the light on the R-44 but not the R-46.
The R-44 SI also still has a switch inside the car to unlock the end door.
In addition, the number plates on the R-44SI are blue (or is it black?) on silver, while the R-44 and R-46 subway use the more standard white on black.
The R-44SI use the old triple digits, the R-44 and R-46 subway have been renumbered for 4 digits.
The R-44SI has the old MTA logo, with NEW YORK CITY around it and STATEN ISLAND under it, the R-44 and R-46 subway use either the new logo with New York City Subway or have NEW YORK CITY written around the old M, with TRANSIT in horizontal letters under it.
The R-44SI is used only on Staten Island. The R-44 and R-46 subway is used everywhere else (which is of course the most obvious difference).
Okay, the area above the storm door is what I had in mind. (What about the rest of the wall?) And I've also noticed the glass pane. Now let's see if I can remember which is which.
>>>...was that glass pane, placed above the faux wood, by the doors. The 'A' has it (R-44?) and the 'R' (R-46?) does not. <<<
Pre-GOH they all had that glass pane.
Peace,
ANDEE
I may have ridden on an R-46 on the Sea Beach also. Its been a few years so all I can remember are digital signs and brightly colored bucket seats.
Well, the R-46s did run on the N during the late 70s.
They also ran on the N while it went to Continental Ave. from about 1984 to the switch with the R in May 1987. For a 2 month period in 1987 (September and October), they returned to the N, going to Astoria. This is the only time I've ever ridden an R46 on any line which did not run on the Queens Blvd. line.
That stretch of time saw some weird car assignments. R10's on the K, red R30s on the Broadway R, R68's on the F and slant R40's on the M.
I think they did that because when they put A/C units in the R32s there was no longer any room for rollsigns up front. Yet somehow the Redbirds managed to retain their rollsigns when they had A/C installed during GOH. Why didn't the Redbirds get digital signs up front like on the R32s and R38s?
The A/C wasn't put at the ends of the cars in the redbirds, it was put in the middle. The way the R-32/38 has the A/C on the ends enabled them to make the cars appear more modern, without having big support poles holding up the units.
Actually, the R-32 as represented in that photo looked the best compared to the remodelling job on the front side that Morrison-Knudsen effected. A fuller, fleshed-out look. (I also noticed that horn was situated as shown only on cars 3350-3499; from 3500 onwards they were situated in an area below the car.) Only the GE rebuilds retained some semblance of that front side.
But I.M.H.O., they really ruined the sides of the R-40, R-40M and R-42’s when they took out the original side doors (and, in the cases of the R-40M and R-42, storm doors) and replaced them with doors which look more like the doors one would expect to see on the IRT “Redbirds.”
Also, on the Morris-Knudsen R-32's: The "new" bonnet area, that used to be made of stainless steel before the rehab, is now silver-painted
steel, which means it is subject to rust streaks.
Whereas the G.E. rebuilds had retained the stainless steel on the top front. Go figure.
Yes those doors look copletely out of place on the R40s and 42s, especially the storm doors. I also didn't recognize these cars when they came back fom GOHs, execpt of couse the R40 slants. Thos are unmistakable no matter what happens to them. But what was the MTA thinking with those replacement doors?
My guess is: They wanted a standardized, modular door window, since they have to replace those scratched plastic windows quite often.
Among retired rolling stock, I always found the older cars- R1-9s, 10s and 12s- with the extended louver along the roofline to be extremely ugly. It might have been subliminal, because when you see one approach, your first thought is, "Oh no, an old noisy, non air-conditioned train!"
I worked near 72nd and Broadway in 1983 right before the 12s were retired. It was a very hot summer, and if a '3' made of these monstrosities came first, I'd pass it up for a '2' which always was at least half made up of a/c R28s or 29s. They looked downright luxurious (despite being painted graffiti over small patches of white) next to the 12s on the '3' and 21s/22s on the '1'.
The R15s were the first with the 'turtleback' roofs, but they had those ridiculous doors with the two round holes in each. I would somehow hear the POPEYE theme every time I saw one, usually on the '1' or '5'. The round 'porthole' front window of the 16s and 17s looked much better.
Those caged inside fans found on R10s and 12s were very ugly. They didn't have the old-movie charm of the exposed fans in the 1-9s, but stuck out awkwardly without offering much cooling. The recessed-in-the-ceiling fans that premiered on the 15s weren't much more effective, but at least they were out of the way.
As far as modern equipment, the few R-26s running on the '5' with the original square-paned 'school bus' windows look far better than all the other non-WF Redbirds that were retrofitted with European-style top slats. It's not a good fit at all.
The beige insides of the renovated 40s- Slants and Mods- look very clunky, especially the way the destination sign is broken up into three separate windows for the route bullet and terminals. The insides of the 42s were redone with more of a sleek, metallic look, and it's far more attractive.
The end of the 68s with its vertical lights always turns me off- it looks like a one-eyed one-nostriled monster. Standing on the bridge at Coney, you can readily see how much better the idling R-46 'F' looks than the R-68 'D' next to it.
My all time favorite car from an aesthetic viewpoint was the original R-42. Loved the huge colored end route sign, the smooth light blue benches and the thick dark blue grooved stripe along the side. I forgot how good they looked until I checked out vintage pictures of them in the Rolling Stock section.
I agree. The R42, when new, was the best looking car ever made.
That elongated tool shed is like the energizer bunny ... it keeps going and going and going .... and long may it go, if you ask me!
--Mark
It will be the last car class with the 3 roll signs one on top of the other, just like the R-10 was the last with the 3 roll sign boxes at different windows.
Wasn't the R-12 the last with the 3 roll signs over different wndows?
Wasn't the R-14 just like the R-12?
Not really, I can t explain it, the R 12 was a more like the IRT Version of the R 10 and The R 12 the IRT Version of the R-11, with a maroon paint. Check it out in the historical sevction. I liked the R 14 best of the Post War Cars when they were new.
I think you're thinking of the R-15 (as the IRT version of the R-11).
The R-12 and R-14 were pretty much undistinguishable.
wayne
The R-15s were the last cars to have roofline signs.
Not really, I can t explain it, the R 12 was a more like the IRT Version of the R 10 and The R 12 the IRT Version of the R-11, with a maroon paint. Check it out in the historical sevction. I liked the R 14 best of the Post War Cars when they were new. Correct R 14/R 11
It was the R-15 that looked like the R-11.
That's correct. The R12 and R14 were identical in appearance; I won't bet on it but I think the only difference was the R14 didn't have the fancy floorwork that The R12 had.
The R-10 was the last train in service with the rollsigns over the windows, with the green trains going bye-bye 11 years ago.
The R-10, R-11, R-12, R-14 and R-15 all were designed with the over-window rollsigns before the TA came to its senses and realized nobody could read the things from any distance away and went back to the R-1/9 route sign design (albeit it in modified form) with the R-16.
BTW -- Listing out the trains with the over-window design made me wonder -- was the TA supersticious back in 1950 or did some other piece of equipment get the R-13 designation?
Maybe they were superstitious (or as I say, superstupid). The R-13 was to be a track cleaning car, but it was never purchased.
>>>The R-10 was the last train in service with the rollsigns over the windows<<<
Aren't you forgetting the R-40/42, R-62/62a and R-68/68a, all of these cars have rollsigns over the windows, albeit, larger. BTW the r44/46 has signs over the window although they are electronic but were originally rollsigns.
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
You're right that the R40, R40M, R42, R44, R46, R62, R62A, R68 & R68A have or had rollsigns OVER the windows. J Lee also forgot that the R12, R14 & R15 cars ALSO had rollsigns OVER the windows. I guess that he wasn't paying attention.
BMTJeff
Actually, he was right. The R40/42/44/46/62/68 have signs that are technically inside the window well, not above it (like the R10/12/14 and R15).
Also, for each side of the train we're switching from plural to signular as far as the window thing goes.
The cars from the R-40 on have their roll signs in the window well at the top of one picture window on each side of the car. The R-10 through R-15s had little, tiny roll signs above three different smaller, rectangular windows on each side of the car.
Chris R16:
At least somebody got something right on the subject of which cars had their rollsigns above the windows.
BMTJeff
I think that the present arrangement of signs on the side are the same idea as the R-10 etc., just executed properly.
SUBWAYSURF:
I would agree that the present arrangment of the roll signs on the is a lot better than what you saw on the R-10, experimental R-11, R-12, R-14 & R-15 fleets that had the dinky little roll signs just above the side windows.
BMTJeff
Yes, but at least you could decipher those signs from quite a distance. With the R-10s and any other cars with the small roofline signs, you had to be almost right next to them in order to read the signs.
So as far as destination signs are concerned, `The Train From Hell' would have the R-10 through R-15 signs on the sides of the cars combined with the front digital signs off the R-32s.
No, the R15 was the last with that design. The R38 was the last car with the old R1/9 3 on top of the other rollsigns. The R40 thru R46 had rollsigns which had only one roller, showing each terminal and the route. After their GOH, the R40-42 got the 3 way segemented signs that were introduced on the R68, while the R44/46 got the digital signs.
By last I meant the only car type still in existence. The R-32 is supposed to outlast the R-38 by about 7 yrs, and the redbirds are already on their way out, leaving the R-32 to be the end of the legacy, just as the R-10 lasted longer than the R-11/34, R-12/14 and R15.
I disagree 100%. The R32s when introduced were the first stainless steel trains and by far the best looking trains in the system, simply beautiful as shown in the picture. After GOH much was changed especially at the ends to make them far less attractive. The front roll sign windows were removed for reasons beyond my understanding. The colored lights and exp/loc lights were removed (why did they bother?) resulting in a box-like appearance. and the interior colors completely mismatched. There are no ugly trains now on the B division as all are stainless rather then carbon steel. You want the ugly of all time? By far the R1/9.
It goes to show you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The R32, IMO, is awful-looking. Perhaps they were striking when new, as stainless steel construction made them stand out. Today, that isn't the case.
The MTA certainly doesn't getting points from me for aesthetics when it comes to its rolling stock. The R32s when new were striking because of their stainless steel, mainly because of their stainless steel, but also because of their color scheme inside and out.
BTW, there is a book for kids published around 1960, I think the title is "The Big City and How It Grew", that contains several b/w photographs of the R16s when new. Have you seen those photos?
Unfortunatly, no. I've seen a few pics of new R16's on the Jamaica line in the "Subway Cars of the BMT" book.
I remember seeing the R-16s in their original colors in 1967. They still had their original signs (what's a 15, I thought at the time) and straight vertical door pockets as well.
What color were the R16's when they were originally delivered? Olive drab? I don't think they were painted cranberry red until the mid 60's.
Yes, they were that "Pullman Green" color..an almost-black shade of green
The R-11 was the first stainless steel train.
The BMT Zephyr was the first stainless steel train.
As usual, the BMT far preceded all others in ideas and modernization. As did the Budd Co. for stainless steel. But there was no fleet of decent size that was stainless until the Brightliner R32s.
Not here in New York, but there were a couple hundred Almond Joys running around in Phila. starting in 1961.
wayne
As I understand it, the R34 was the GOH stainless steel version of the R11. True, the R11 preceded the R32 but did not get stainless until metamorphizing to R34, in 1965.
You do not understand it, the R-11 came with stainless steel installed.
Who built them, was it Budd?
The R-11 was built in 1949 by BUDD at a cost of $121,373 per car. They were stainless steel when originally built,
400 were on order to run on the never built 2nd Ave. line, but that never happened. I wonder why the city didn't buy the 400 anyway. They'd have lasted longer than the newer R16's.
This would only be speculation, however, you need to look at several factors. Despite unification under the BoT, the IND, IRT and BMT were still very seperate entities. The R-11 was always presumed to be an IND car. In fact, officially the R-11s were not transferred to the BMT until 1954. Likely, the BMT peopel wanted their own car and not someone elses cast-off. Additionally, the R-16s were built 5-6 years later than the R-11s. At the time that the R-16s were ordered, they were $121,422 each or roughly what the R-11s had cost 5 years earlier. Perhaps due to the inflation surrounding Korea, the R-11s were viewed as too costly in 1954 dollars. Finally, the R-11s were oddballs, never disigned to MU with other NYCT equipment. Although the BRT had a propensity for odd-ball equipment, the R-16 were the first BMT cars that were compatible with other NYCT equipment.
Why would the IND order oddball equipment? This went against their philosophy of using standard, simple (and boring) rolling stock.
I only mention that the R11 would've lasted longer than the R16 because the R11 was stainless steel, which would've made them stand up much better to rust. I can't comment on the mechanical differences.
On the contrary Chris, The IND had no track record at all. They bought the R-9s etal. Then they bought the R-10s which were oddballs - not compatible with the 9s. So the 11s were just another oddball in a collection of oddballs.
Of course, once additional SMEE cars started to arrive, the R-10s were no longer oddballs as such.
IIRC, one R-11 was reworked to m. u. with other SMEE cars prior to the R-34 rebuilding after R-16 6494 was prematurely withdrawn.
The R1-9’s and the R10-42 classes were incompatible with one another in terms of their motors/trucks (arch-bar on the earlier cars, cast-steel on the latter) and their couplers (H2A on the R1-9’s, H2C on the R10-42’s).
The R11/34, was hardly ever used on IND lines, if at all (unless you count its brief use on the B train in 1968); it mostly ran on BMT rails. And in the 1950’s and ’60’s, the TA ordered more cars for the IRT than for the BMT-IND routes. This was why whereas most IRT cars looked alike and thus different model cars could run in one consist, no two BMT-IND R car orders looked alike (with perhaps the lone exception of the R40M and R42 cars).
I'd have to say that the R44 and R46 look enough like each other...the R40M and R42 look less alike than R44 and R46.
wayne
Well, the R-27s and R-30s were very nearly identical, and the R-16s bore a strong resemblance. Granted there were variations in appearance on postwar IND/BMT cars; however, with the exception of the R-11s prior to their R-34 rebuilding, all cars from the R-10s thru the R-42s could run together, and for a period of time in the late 60s and early 70s, they did so. Smorgasbord trains, as I like to call them, were commonly seen.
There was a very good reason the TA order scores of cars for the IRT in the 50s and 60s - the Lo-Vs and especially the Hi-Vs were nearing the end of their useful lives and were due for retirement. It has been said the Hi-Vs would have been retired sooner had it not been for WWII.
BTW, there was one other major difference between the R-1/9s and postwar cars - AMUE vs SMEE braking.
Don't forget the dumb-idea of disc-braking on the R-11's. That didn't help their cause either.
I believe they were the only cars built (at least for the NYC system) to use an automobile-type braking system.
Doug aka BMTman
It was my pleasure to be able to ride the R11s often when they were new. My home station in the 1950/51 school year was 183rd and the Concourse and my school station was 14th and Eighth. The wonderful C train disappeared in 1947 (E. 205th to Hoyt-Schermerhorn), so it was necessary to change from the D to an A at either 125th or 59th. Most of the time the R11s would be on the southbound yard track south of 135th Street. If I saw the motorman in its cab, I knew that it would pull in empty right behind my D at 125th. I always changed.
It was the best subway car I ever rode to this day (except that air conditioning was not available). It was smooth, quiet, good looking, had ultra-violet germ killing lights, crank-down windows and was mercifully quiet. It was just too sophisticated in a city that thought it could run loud boxes on wheels. Only Budd seemed to understand that World War II was over and that Americans would leave mass transit in droves. Subway car technology was one of the causes of ridership decline. Budd's R11 effort was the "silence of one, crying in the desert".
Ah, the Precipitrons. They sterilized not only the air, but everything else, including people!
Interestingly enough, our LRVs in Denver have disk brakes. When the operator applies the brakes, a red "Disk brakes applied" indicator light illuminates on the console. I'm still curious as to whether they have AC or DC motors. You can hear a faint whine as they accelerate from a dead stop. Other than that, they are whisper quiet. I had my windows open as I drove down Santa Fe Dr. yesterday, and several trains went by in each dirtection. You could not hear them.
Hey Ray: I have an R-11 as my desktop on my school computer. It was taken on January 24, 1970 at the King's Highway Station. What I like about it is that it carries the Sea Beach's old #4 of my childhood, and it was taken on my wife's birthday in the year we were married. No 30 coming up on August 1. So you have my complete support on this subject. Go ahead and blast away. I'm with you all the way.
The puzzling thing about that picture is that the front destination curtain is blank even though the R-11s did have "57th St.-Manhattan via Bridge" signs.
Today is THE red-letter date in my life: the 35th anniversary of my very first subway ride on an N of brand new R-32s.
I also happen to remember August 1, 1970. That was the day I saw the Mets in person at Shea for the first time. Tom Seaver struck out 13 Padres, and Cleon Jones won it with a 3-run dinger in the 6th or 7th inning. We even caught a 7 express back to Manhattan after the game.
Did you use the Borden milk coupons or you paid?
I guess you should take a look at the R-110B. The trailer cars on the R-110B had disc brakes ala-AMTRAK. The disc brakes are used to simulate the dynamic braking equivalent on the trailer cars where dynamic braking is not possible.
Clearly the disc brakes did not help the R-11s compatability issues. However, I think it was the inability to MU with anything else that really hurt them.
I go out of town for a weekend and suddenly I'm the ugly one! :-)
When the R-11's were castrated in the R-34 GOH, wasn't one of the goals of that GOH to give them the ability to MU with other rolling stock? If one were to read carefully in the Sansone book "Evolution of New York City Subways", you would get the impression that the R-11 was MU'd with the R-16, though it seems that this really couldn't happen until after the GOH. Any thoughts?
I don't think that we got onto the R-11s due to an issue of looks so you are not the ugly one. You are correct, though. The R-11s couldn't MU with other cars until they were overhauled as R-34s. Now for today's trivia question:
After overhaul, what nickname was attached to the R-34s?
"Tinbirds"?
The million dollar pain?
They were forever referred to as the "Becker Bombs". I never foumd out who Becker was.
"The Million Dollar Train, Assigned to a 10 Cent Line"?
(Referring to the Franklin Shuttle).
Not to throw a fly into the ointment but: More than once I had seen an R11 on the point of an R16 train, rush hours only on the Broadway Short Line [Jamaica el]. I have a slide of such a train and had it printed in "They Moved The Millions". (Date was in l960, not l956 as the caption showed. And that was before the GOH.)Whether they had some modified for MU service with others I don't know. My feelings were that all cars R10 thru R42 could be MU'd; how such a train would handle is another story, probably terrible. I disliked the 3 way mixes on the IRT badly enough.[1)R12-15;2)R17-22;3)R26 thru 36]. I won't say for a fact that all R11's could MU with other cars, but I know for a fact it was done with at least one or two of them in the Eastern before GOH.But it would make a bad handling train.
I'm not sure if the picture is the same, but among my books, I think it might also be in the Geller book "New York City Subways"
There are plenty of pictures placing the R11 in trains of R16Son the Jamaica line .
Gene Sansone's book does mention that one R-11 - I'm going to say 8010 but won't swear to it - was modified to m. u. with other SMEE cars prior to the R-34 rebuild after R-16 6494 was heavily damaged. Not sure of the details; however, I don't believe it was due to a fight with a BMT standard.:-)
If a BMT Standard ever got into a fight, you can surely place bets on it being the winner :-)
I believe there is a picture showing an R-11 on the Jamaica Avenue line mated to R-16's. If I recall it might have actually been 8013, the only surviving R-11!
Unless, of course, the fight would have been between a BMT standard and a Triplex.:-)
AFAIK, that never happened. Triplex units 6043 and 6078 did get into a fracas at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. That had to be the superheavyweight bout of the century. 6078C was grafted onto 6043A and B and renumbered 6043C. Gotham Turnstiles has a photo of this very unit leading a deadheading West End express down the middle track of the Astoria line in 1965.
I think I've seen that photo you're talking about. Is it a nighttime view of the R-11 at 168th St. with a 15 sign in front? I'm going to have to dig out my copy of Gene Sansone's book and see which car modified before the R-34 rebuild.
That Triplex-Triplex bout would have been some "Thrilla in Manila"
I was referring to the "15" picture that you're alluding to at 168 Street. From the angle of the photo, you can't see the car number though. But after through examination, there is indeed an R-11 mated with something else on this very site, but alas it is dated for 1969, a few years after the R-34 castrati...I mean overhaul.
All ten R-11s could m. u. with other SMEE cars after the R-34 rebuild. For example, the Franklin Ave. shuttle ran trains of two R-32s with an R-11 attached for a time.
Ahhh, Jamaica in it's heyday before the el was castrated in 1977.
Here it is:
A face that everyone can love! Thank you for sharing it.
07/22/2000
The trademark of the R-34 overhaul was the R-32 like blue doors which the storm door shown here is. The R-11's doors were never blue.
Bill "Newkirk"
I should have mentioned that this pic was the newly overhauled R34, not the R11.
Triplex units 6043 and 6078 did get into a fracas at Stillwell
Ave. in 1955. That had to be the superheavyweight bout of the century
And it measured 3.2 on the Richter scale. :o>
BTW there was a similar collision on the IC Gulf between TWO sets of 1926 Pullman MUs back in the 1940s or 1950s which resulted in the derailment of both with NO appreciable damage to either. SPEAKING of these Goliaths - have you ever seen Ted Lemen's close-up of the 10/30/1972 incident? Here's a look at the gory details. OUCH!!!! That hurts! The 1970 MUs are tin. What a shame.
wayne
[BTW there was a similar collision on the IC Gulf between TWO sets of 1926 Pullman MUs back in the 1940s or 1950s which resulted in the derailment of both with NO appreciable damage to either. SPEAKING of these Goliaths - have you ever seen Ted Lemen's close-up of the 10/30/1972 incident? Here's a look at the gory details. OUCH!!!! That hurts! The 1970 MUs are tin. What a shame.]
Dunno, I've always heard that the 1926 car held up just fine in that crash, while the much newer bilevel was completely destroyed. Based on the picture in your link, it looks like the 1926 car got it pretty bad as well.
Not as bad as the bilevel, however. That oldtimer, like the South Shore's Big Orange cars, BMT standards, Triplexes, etc., had steel, steel, and more steel. The bilevels had, well, who knows? Maybe tinfoil is more like it.
I remember reading about that crash in Reader's Digest. Two young women were trapped beneath the wreckage, and everything had to be slowly peeled away before they could be reached. One had to have a foot or leg amputated, IIRC.
P. S. Regarding the R-11s, it was indeed car 8010 which was modified before the R-34 rebuild.
One steel frame at the car end to hold the rest of the tin in place, which was ripped clean from the car body and was pushed back to where you see the side door in the picture. Those Highliners are flimsy, as the photo evidence shows.
wayne
The damage to the 1926 MU was limited to the first two feet or so of the outer shell of the body - i.e. the cab and the standee/straphanging area opposite it. She basically got nothing more than a black eye. Note how the part of the car with the seating area (i.e. the part where the side windows are) is basically undamaged. The other car in the set had a slightly dented chapeau as well but was otherwise just fine.
The St.Louis car bilevel? Demolished.
wayne
[The damage to the 1926 MU was limited to the first two feet or so of the outer shell of the body - i.e. the cab and the standee/straphanging area opposite it. She basically got nothing more than a black eye. Note how the part of the car with the seating area (i.e. the part where the side windows are) is basically undamaged. The other car in the set had a slightly dented chapeau as well but was
otherwise just fine.
The St.Louis car bilevel? Demolished.]
If rail cars are anything like motor vehicles, collision outcomes can be quirky ...
One day back in 1984, I was driving home from work when I got distracted in heavy traffic and plowed right into the car in front on me. Totally, completely my fault. Now, my vehicle was basically undamaged, just a few scratches on the front bumper, so minor I didn't bother getting them fixed. Unfortunately, the car I slammed into, a Plymouth Horizon that was (according to the distraught but fortunately uninjured driver) only three weeks old, almost certainly ended up in the scrap yard. It was so heavily damaged that the doors were jammed shut and the driver had to climb out the window. The rear end was pushed in at least six inches and basically destroyed. I have seen many crashes since then, yet none of them have had such a monumental mismatch when it comes to damage.
My point? It might sound like I was driving some big hulking pickup or sport-utility (a term not in common use then), but in fact I was driving a new Chevrolet Cavalier, a vehicle that was no heavier or larger than the poor Horizon it destroyed. It was just something about the dynamics of the collision that caused such a staggering difference in the outcomes. So maybe the 1972 Chicago crash was something like that. It may not be fair making any judgments about the relative strengths of the 1926 MU and the bilevel.
Postscipt: the Cavalier was a really nice car. It was roomy for a small car, with excellent handling and plenty of power. But after that crash, I never could stand it, the way it savaged that poor little Horizon. Within six months, I traded it in on a Nissan Stanza (which turned out to be a semi-lemon) at a loss of over $3,000.
On Dec 28, l974 a Toyota failed to yield to me [I was going straight, he was making a left turn] and a head on resulted. The Toyota made a fool of my 69 Checker Marathon; which I thought was the strongest car made. Thankfully the Checker was totalled; it was the biggest lemon I had for 5 years I had it; bought it new and always some problems. But a lot bigger and I thought stronger than a Toyota; guess again.
The later-model Checkers (I think from about 1974 on) had better bumpers - My Dad's 1976 Marathon has them - that look like I-beams with rounded corners and they wrap around the front and rear. The older Checkers had the old-style bumpers which didn't look too sturdy.
wayne
In the Chicago IC crash - the 1926 MU actually leapt up over the sill of the rear car of the Bilevel and plowed through it at an angle. Once it got past the reinforcing body frame (which was sheared off by the impact), all it encountered was soft metal. The MU was travelling about 45 MPH at the point of impact.
wayne
[In the Chicago IC crash - the 1926 MU actually leapt up over the sill of the rear car of the Bilevel and plowed through it at an angle. Once it got past the reinforcing body frame (which was sheared off by the impact), all it encountered was soft metal. The MU was travelling about 45 MPH at the point of impact.]
I figured that something like that must have happened.
Somewhere in the same time frame of that IC accident I was working the F [possibly the GG?] reporting for a PM job at Church Ave. There was a similar crash right in that station on the southbound express track. An old timer motorman took off the hand brakes before the compressors were cut in and the air system charged.The old R1-9 rolled downgrade into Church, ramming the parked R40 in the station. If I had a photo the results would be similar to the IC crash. R6 1236 looked something like the l926 IC car; the SECOND R40 from the rear looked about the same. The rear R40 was demolished like the new IC car was. Fortunately both were "put-ins" [to service] from midday storage, and no passengers were aboard either. I still have more faith in the old heavyweights, and the old workmanship.
I show the date of that incident as February 12, 1973.
Those R40s involved in the collision with the R-6-2 were #4420 and #4421. #4420 was scrapped outright; #4421 wound up donating parts to other needy R40s, including a whole nose to #4248 who lost his own in a collision with (non-revenue) R38 #4063 near Dyckman Street.
For whatever reason, the Slant R40 have very fragile ends - a rear-end collision between two of them (#4427 and #4428) at Bushwick-Aberdeen on January 8, 1996 (during the snowstorm) produced similarly frightening results. Fortunately the nose assembly can be removed and replaced with relative ease. It's when the damage gets past the nose area that it becomes problematic.
I understand the R-6-2 had hardly any damage.
wayne
As built, R-32's 3946-49 tested Pioneer III trucks with disc brakes while retaining the SMEE system for compatibility. These were replaced with standard trucks after 3947-48 suffered fire damage in the late '60's. Don't know if the fire was related to the trucks, though.
Perhaps due to the inflation surrounding Korea, the R-11s were viewed as too costly in 1954 dollars.
For some reason, the TA (and even the BMT) was not receptive to stainless steel. It took a very low bid by the Budd Company in the early 1960s to convince the TA to purchase the R-32s. From that point on, all new subway cars ordered were mostly stainless steel.
--Mark
Perhaps the smartest move by the MTA, proving the advantages of stainless steel and obtaining one great performing car.
Not a smart move by Budd. Wasn't the R32 contract central to their leaving the rapid transit car field in the late 60's?
Budd was involved in the rapid transit car field into the 1980s. Ask any Chicago railfan.
David
I was under the impression that Budd left this field in the late 60's. I guess I was wrong ....
You're partially right -- they did leave the rapid transit building field as far as NYC was concerned.
CTA cars are lighter and of course are built more like PCC cars than heavy-duty subway cars of Boston or New York, so the Chicago projects for Budd were less intense.
Doug aka BMTman
Budd also built M-1 and M-3 commuter cars for LIRR and Penn Central/Metro-North.
David
Yes, and if I"m not mistaken that was what put them out of the car building business until they were reorganized by German interests.Yes, then the Chicago 2600-3199 were built by Budd; I've never heard any more of Budd since then. A correspondent had told me they were going to be their last transit and/or Passenger cars. The R32 had nothing to do with Budd's problems. The M1 [LIRR] was not a happy situation for Budd; Likewise the R44 saw the exit of St. Louis, and Pullman quit after the R46, and I think a Superliner contract.Correct me if I'm wrong.
Pullman pulled out of the passenger car business, as it were, after completing the R-46 order.
Chicago's 2600-series cars are a disappointment, IMHO. When I last rode on them in 1996, their doors rattled when opening and closing, and the noise - kind of what the R-10s were like in their last days, only 10 times worse.
They're also the most breakdown-prone cars of the CTA fleet, as well as having frequent problems with electrical fires. And our little blizzard of a couple years ago (23" of snow in less than 24 hours) clearly demonstrated that the 2600's can't handle snow; IIRC about a third of them were knocked out of service due to snow getting into the electrical components. Luckily, all the 2600's are currently in the process of being rebuilt by Alstom. It's probably too early to tell how well they're doing maintenance-wise since the rebuild, but they are certainly much smoother and more quiet than before.
However, the older Budd 2200's (rebuilt by St. Louis), are the most reliable cars of the CTA fleet, although they're due for replacement soon. I hope the IRM or one of the other transit museums is able to aquire some of the 2200's; I still think they're the nicest-looking cars in the system despite their accessibility problems.
-- David
Boston, MA
[IIRC about a third of them were knocked out of service due to snow getting into the electrical components]
GG1's used to pull Budd Metroliners on the corridor when it snowed, for the same reason.
AFAIK, the last rapid transit cars built by Budd, or the reincarnated Transit America were for the joint Baltimore / Miami cars in 1982 and the TA built cars for Baltimore in 1983/4.
When were the LIRR M-3's built? Had to be at or after 1985. Their builders plates state BUDD, IIRC.
wayne
I'm not sure but I think the M-3 are GE (General Electric Transportation Systems, Erie Penna). I know the Comos are GE.
As much as I like the GG1 and considered the Metroliner a lemon, which it was along with some other MU's of its period (R44, M1, Bart, etc) it was in the 60's I think that a snowstorm knocked out most of the venerable GG1's and diesels had to pull the trains. A very fine snow got thru the air filters, and shorted the traction motors out on many. New filters were added after this; hence some of them having a real ugly air filter assembly. If nothing else the beloved G's outlasted a lot of stuff that was much younger. What else is new?? !!
You're right about the noise, especially on the Kennedy (O'Hare) line.It can be earsplitting. Can't be worse than the 6000's tho'. Or are they? In the same thread ,,being Dave's message, I think they look pretty good. My favorites for looks are the 2400-2500's. They are neat; the 2200's...oh well, I say no more. The 3200's are a good looking car, a close second in my book.
The 6000s had a deep rumble which increased in pitch as they gained speed. They were pretty loud in the State St. subway. The 2000s, when they ran on what was then the North/South line, were somewhat quieter. I still say the tunnel construction in Chicago has something to do with all that noise. I'll bet that if you were to run a train of 2600s in New York, they wouldn't be that noisy. A train of R-10s in Chicago, well, that's another story.
Of course, you couldn't run R-10's in the Chicago subways. The cars are IRT width, and even shorter (48 feet vs 51 feet) in length.
Maybe R-14's.....
You are correct. My suggestion was hypothetical. The R-14s were quieter than the R-10s, as were the R-12s.
My mother investigated the company in the early 80's, they had a temporary trailer in Corona Yd. She found out they all their employees were from a Temp company, so they had no employees on the payroll! Don't ask me for any detail's, that's all she told me.
Sounds like the facility that Budd set up to do warranty work on the M-1. It was on the LIRR platform at Corona. Later the facility was given (or leased) to GE to help set up the Cosmos for the New Haven Lines.
>>>For some reason, the TA (and even the BMT) was not receptive to stainless steel. <<<
They weren't very receptive to Air Conditioning either, wonder why?
Peace,
ANDEE
The TA's reasoning was that the air conditioning plants of the time were too bulky and a big enough unit couldn't be put on the small cars. True the mainline roads had A/C even in the 30's but: the cars were 78-85 feet, they didn't have the crush passenger loads, and the doors didn't open as frequently[not so many doors either]. There was a test of AA/C on the R17's in the late 50's but it was considred a failure as it couldn't keep up, so was removed. On the other hand how come the H&M, later PATH K cars of l957 had successful "air"?In any event now that A/C machinery has become more compact they have successfully installed same on NYC subway cars.
Aside from technical reasons, TA brass thought that the average passenger subway ride was too short to warrant A/C!
--Mark
>>>For some reason, the TA (and even the BMT) was not receptive to stainless steel. <<<
They weren't very receptive to Air Conditioning either, wonder why?
Peace,
ANDEE
The TA's reasoning was that the air conditioning plants of the time were too bulky and a big enough unit couldn't be put on the small cars. True the mainline roads had A/C even in the 30's but: the cars were 78-85 feet, they didn't have the crush passenger loads, and the doors didn't open as frequently[not so many doors either]. There was a test of AA/C on the R17's in the late 50's but it was considred a failure as it couldn't keep up, so was removed. On the other hand how come the H&M, later PATH K cars of l957 had successful "air"?In any event now that A/C machinery has become more compact they have successfully installed same on NYC subway cars.
Aside from technical reasons, TA brass thought that the average passenger subway ride was too short to warrant A/C!
--Mark
IIRC, Budd also made a sales pitch that the lighter weight made possible by the use of stainless steel would result in energy savings. Not to mention giving the R-32s jackrabbit characteristics.
Hard to believe Friday will mark 35 years since my very first subway ride. I can still see those shiny new R-32s.
07/16/2000
[As I understand it, the R34 was the GOH stainless steel version of the R11]
Q Brightliner,
The R-11 and R-34 were one in the same. The 10 car train was given the contract R-11 in 1949 when built. The same cars were given a general overhaul and made to be compatible with the R-16's and other SMEE's in 1965. The general overhaul introduced axiflow ceiling fans to replace original ventilation (not A/C) system. Also a new type R-32 type ceiling with air grates, stainless steel hand holds, and 2 long roof air vents running the lenght of the cars exterior. The interior was painted the same colors as the new R-32's, however the R-16 porthole window on the storm door was not part of the R-34 overhaul, but installed earlier in the life of the R-11.
It seems there is a lot of confusion between R-11 and R-34. The above should explain it. The lowered ceiling by the motormans cab is NOT for an air conditioning unit, but for an unusual ventilation system with ultra violet lamps ("steri lamps") to kill germs.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a classic R-32 photo, circa 1967-68, and captures those cars in their original splendor: the blue doors, green backlit side signs, and bulkhead route and destination curtains. I remember that time period well, not to mention D trains signed up exactly like that gliding into 34th St. as well as streaking effortlessly along CPW.
Had you asked me back then for my vote for ugliest subway cars, I would have said BMT standards, hands down. As for today, frankly, I can't say any particular car series is ugly.
The R32. Performance wise they're great, but they look like oblong garden sheds on wheels ...
Maybe when they're ready to scrap the older trains, some eccentric millionaire can buy some old rolling stock and put tgogether a composite car: It would have the outer body of an R-32, the front end of an R-40 Slant, the doors of an R-15, The roof of an R-10, the interior of an R-68, with the seats painted in GOH grey.
07/13/2000
As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel NYC has any ugly cars. I believe the ugly cars are from the past. Here is my list:
1) BMT "C" TYPE - Crude but functional idea of reinventing "el" cars by using one conductor and adding doors. The center trailer car with the higher roof line was the ugly touch. The vestibules between the cars didn't help either. Thank God the "Q" Type looks better.
2) IRT 1939-40 WF CARS - Not really ugly, just bland and blah.
3) DELAWARE RIVER JOINT COMM./SEPTA "Bridge cars" - Very ugly, an art deco face only Flash Gordon could love.
4) BOSTON - All orignal and 1950's equipment. Something ugly about door opening hardware mounted outside the car.
5) PTC - "Almond Joy Cars", remove those "humps" off the roofs and those cars would look better. The air conditioned car looked like a Mohawk haircut.
6) All H&M equipment - The "Ogee" roofs didn't look as nice as the sloped end railroad roof cars of Low-V fame. The arched windows may be disturbing. The MP-38's look like a miniature MP-54!
7) Cleveland - The original "Airport" cars, a lame attempt at a R-40 "Slant" knockoff.
8) CTA 1948 Articulated unit - Could have been designed better.
9) R-40 Slant - Sorry Wayne!, Nice and futuristic when delivered, but with safety concerns addition of pantograph gates and other associated hardware make it look like an Erector Set gone nuts!
Well, there you have it! MY beautiful BMT Standards are not ugly, just classic!
Bill "Newkirk"
Te 1959 Ford "Edsel" was the ugliest automobile ever ever produced!
Slant R40 beautiful? Read my post!
wayne
The 1959 Ford "Edsel" was the ugliest automobile ever ever produced!
I'll take exception to that! The '58 Edsel had the big horsecollar grille, but the '59 was a rather attractive looking car. The '60 Edsel was somewhat unusual too, but it has its appeal; I'd like one of those. And it was never the Ford Edsel - that would be like saying the Ford Mercury or the Ford Lincoln. The '58 had four models - Ranger, Pacer, Citation, and Corsair. The '59 had only two, IIRC, and the '60 was just the Ranger.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How did we get onto cars? But as long as we did I must say the new Beetle (and the old beetles) are alot uglier than the Edsel. Why anyone would buy one is beyond me. The reason the old ones sold was because they were CHEAP.
The new one is nice although small. The old one was horribly ugly.
[3) DELAWARE RIVER JOINT COMM./SEPTA "Bridge cars" - Very ugly, an art deco face only Flash Gordon could love.]
Or someone who grew up with them.
The Repulsive Rustbirds, especially those that have the new style windows installed during GOH. Not the World's Fair fleet (including the hated R-33 single).
I'm not going to read the numerous responses (I'll do that after I put my 2¢ worth in).
The UGHLIEST train in the ENTIRE system is, WITHOUT A DOUBT, HANDS DOWN, the SLANT R40. Nothing even comes close. They're so ugly, they're beautiful.
They also happen to be my personal favorites! Go figure.
wayne
To me, those R40 slants are like giant scary doorstops. Yes I do think they are the scariest (hence ugliest) trains in the system. (redbirds close second)
I have only seen pictures of the different models that are now in use and have never seen any of them in person. I don't think that the Slant R-40 is ugly, perhaps a better word would be unique. If I were to ever visit the city again, my first choice for a train ride would be a slant.
[The UGHLIEST train in the ENTIRE system is, WITHOUT A DOUBT, HANDS DOWN, the SLANT R40. Nothing even comes close. They're so ugly, they're beautiful.
They also happen to be my personal favorites! Go figure.]
But remember, the slants were a lot better looking when first delivered, before addition of the safety barriers.
They always reminded me of the long gone gate cars. Before A.C., riding between the cars during the blazing summer was a refreshing if deafening experience.
avid
......might as well cast my vote .........the UGLIEST trains are the ones without...........a railfan window.......!!!
Sometimes called storm a window !
The ugliest train on the system is the R-40. The slant nose in the front was futurisic, but all that additional hardware to make that gap safe ruined the effect. And now the windows in the side doors are smaller than the picture windows giving it an asymmetrical effect. However, its redeeming quality is that the storm doors are still the original type, with their long windows, allowing railfans-in-training like my son to enjoy the same cab view as I do when we ride the train together.
--Mark
I've stayed away from this topic because it's far to subjective to come to any meaningful conclusion. However, let me cast my biased vote.
Pre-overhaul the ugliest exterior has to go to the R-40M followed closely by the R-42 - Absolutely boring.
Post-Overhaul the honors belong to the R-32. Withoug the markers, that Stainless steel panel installed by MK makes the car look unfinished.
As for the ugliest interior, it's a tie between the R-62, R-62A, R-68 and R-68A. Like riding inside atuna can. By far, the R-46 was and is the best looking car, interior-wise.
Ever since Alexander Grahm Budd noticed that "Hey, stainless steel looks pretty darn good" heavy rail passenger car in the US have trended away from paint and towards silver steel. However it seems that heavy rail cars in other countries have become more and more colourful. Given that SS saves money and foriegn cars may not even be made of metal what is better: Stainless Steel, Painted SS or Painted normal steel? Answer in both your opinion and accroding to the facts (weight, cost and stregnth). Also has anyone thought about using that steel with the protective rust like they use on the NJ Turnpike and GS Parkway.
Brought to you by the New Jersey Turnpike: The Standard Road of the World.
From my experience it is just the Parkway that has the rust-covered guard rails.
-- Dave
Co-sponsored by the GS Parkway: Where the Driveway/Parkway discrepancy makes sense.
07/13/2000
[Ever since Alexander Grahm Budd noticed that "Hey, stainless steel looks pretty darn good" heavy rail passenger car in the US have trended away from paint and towards silver steel.]
What did Alexander Grahm Budd invent, the stainless steel telephone?
Bill "Newkirk"
If the reason for the GO is work at Whitehall st, then why not divert the Brooklyn N to Nassau st. and have people transfer bet. the sections at Canal (of if they can't turn there, turn the Ns at Chambers, I think they have enough tracks). They'd be able to serve Lawrence and Court, and people would have a simpler alternative.
I think that if the MTA runs the trains to 57th St./6th Ave., not as many people going to Midtown will transfer to the Queensbound N at Canal St. and therefore won't be as troubled. Your plan requires that a passenger transfers to a J train at Chambers and at the next stop(Canal St.) transfer to the N.
Leave the J out of it. Turn the N at Delancy.
I tried to see the Uptown 6 R142 which stops at Bleeker at 11:30. I waited until 12:10 and it still never showed. Anyone know what happened?
It just goes to show the daily delays of a very very crowded line. These delays exist with or without the R142A running.
The R142 did not run today. The had tripper problems when it was started this morning. I do not know if this resest the 30 day clock.
-Harry
It proable does restart the clock.
Robert
What's the 30 day clock?
The 30-day clock is the time period that the new cars have to run without mechanical problems. I'm guessing a problem to keep it from going into service will reset the clock.
Messed up my ride home. There was also a sick passenger on the C at Houston Street.
Now that I know what happened, the announcements were funny. First there was "an incident at Second Avenue" then a "police investigation at Second Avenue. Never said the delay was due to a building collapse.
"There was also a sick passenger on the C at Houston Street."
I'd be sick too if I was on a C train that was stopped at Houston Street!!
In case you are wondering why all those people on the tracks wear different colored hard hats, here is the answer direct from a track worker.
Orange.......... RTO (Rapid Transit Operations)
Light Blue...... Track
Gray............ Power Distribution (Third Rail)
White........... Supervision, foreman, superintendent
Yellow.......... Signal
Red............. Infrastructure (plumbing, carpentry,painters,etc.)
Dark Blue....... (My source did not know)
I never noticed the different colors.
[In case you are wondering why all those people on the tracks wear different colored hard hats, here is the answer direct from a track worker.
Orange.......... RTO (Rapid Transit Operations)
Light Blue...... Track
Gray............ Power Distribution (Third Rail)
White........... Supervision, foreman, superintendent
Yellow.......... Signal
Red............. Infrastructure (plumbing, carpentry,painters,etc.)
Dark Blue....... (My source did not know)]
No hat, ragged clothes ........ skell
Dark Blue....... Light Blue dirtied up
Shame on your source - the regular blue is for Car Equipment.
White is now used by Senior management
having seen the map of the new proposed DC metro routes i have a question. There is no layover track at Rosslyn. Therefore won't Yellow trains terminating there have to use the crossover and then enter the station on the track used by westbound orange trains, but going the opposite direction? I can see the oragne trains getting stopped in the tunnel waiting for the yellow to clear the tracks at Rosslyn.
No Rosslyn in DC! Rosslyn is in Virginia, two block from where USA Today has their main office.
As far as the special service during the 4th, the Yellow line just became the Orange as it passes Rosslyn.
The original poster is wrong about that being a proposed service. It was a special service for July 4 only, and it is the second year in a row it has been run.
My guess is that the Yellow train pulled into Rosslyn, switched its track near Foggy Bottom and went right back out again. Since it was probably only running every 12 minutes and the orange was running to/from VIENNA every 6 minutes, it was probably not too difficult.
Carl is right----This routing was ONLY for the 4th of July to enable the mall area to clear out in a timely and efficient manner...On July 5th, all routing reverted back to its normal form...Even the maps in the stations were just placed OVER the regular maps so the the morning of the 5th, they could be removed easily. As for the Yellow Line trains switching from one track to the other, they used the switch near Arlington Cemetary to straighten out the routing since there weren't that many trains designated as Yellow to begin with.
I just purchased "Traction Prototype and Models" magazine (really a newsletter). It's odd, but interesting. Does anyone recommend other magazines that deal with traction (including models)? I'm asking this here since the model subtalk board is quite dormant.
Thanks,
Dave
"I'm asking this here since the model subtalk board is quite dormant."
There's a model subtalk board?
http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/ModelSubTalk/wwwboard/wwwboard.html
What a crazy URL. Hasn't the webmaster heard of NameZero or CJB?
I took a look. It almost looks like part of this site. (Even has a link to NYC Subway.Org.)
A few years ago I subscribed to Traction and Trolleys Quarterly. Found it a nice comprehensive magazine for a field with unfortunately limited interest. Looked up my lateset [big deal] Model RR'er.. Jan 2000 and find they advertised therein...One year $21.00, single issue $5.35. Write to the name above at PO box 04016, Milwaukee WI 53204
The now defunct Electriclines did a good job with the prototypes and had a very limited amount of modeling information on occasion. Individual copies of its 29 issues show up on occasion at swap meets and on eBay. I have duplicates of about half the issues... email me privately for more information. Headlights, the publication that comes with membership in the ERA, is rather thin but interesting. It unfortunately has all the problems associated with volunteer publications, despite several people who are trying very hard, but I'm still glad to be a member of the ERA and receive it. There's not a lot else out there now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
07/13/2000
Today I set out on the #6 line in hopes of catching the R-142A's. With running schedule downloaded from SubTalk in my camera bag, I was prepared. I did go as far as Westchester Sq. when aroung 10:30, I decided to head back because the train was nowhere to be seen.
I however, opted to ride the <6> Express which was a first for me. When I changed at 125th St for the #5, I asked the dispatcher if the R-142A was running. No he said. Took the #5 to Brooklyn Bridge. Asked that dispatcher and he told me that the R-142A was not running until further notice. "Until furthur notice".....hmmm sounds serious to me.
Has anybody seen the R-142A today or was I given wrong answers?
BTW-I was bummed out about this and took PATH to Newark to ride the PCC's on the City Subway. I was rejunvenated! God I'm going to miss those PCC's. Saw new LRV #104A/B at Penn with wires coming out of front coupler attched to what look like a diagnostic device. Work on Branch Brook Park station is coming along nicely.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R142 did not run today. The had tripper problems when it was started this morning. This probably resets the 30 day clock
-Harry
"Work on Branch Brook Park station is coming along nicely."
NICELY?!
I haven't seen any progress in weeks! Yesterday while leaving Franklin, honest to God, I saw three guys standing around a hole in the ground, one with a shovel, all staring down and scratching their heads.
Another time, I saw a guy lying on his back with his hardhat over his face taking a siesta.
Another time, I saw a couple guys gathered around a lunch box - at 3:30 in the afternoon.
The drunk contractor my uncle hired to dump truck loads of dirt in the backyard seemed more reliable.
07/13/2000
[NICELY?! ]
Well, I haven't seen it in a couple of months, so the platform canopies and what looks like some sort of hexagonal building make it look nicer than two months ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
Tried to catch the Southbound midday run from 42nd, and a conductor told me it wasn't running today. Didn't know it was out yesterday too. With the 30 day clock, sometimes it seems that itls be years before they go into service, but they have to be that tough, because as we've seen before, these companies will sell us junk if we let them.
Living away from the city has its disadvantages. The news of the building collapse is in our papers, on our radio and also television, but the only location given is Brooklyn.
Would someone tell me what part of Brooklyn?
Murray Hill. It was an explosion, not a collpse.
(The only location given is Brooklyn. Would someone tell me what part of Brooklyn?)
State Street, Boerum Hill, just south of Downtown Brooklyn (or, some would say, in Downtown Brooklyn). There is a row of Brownstones there, which now has one less.
But today another building went down on Second Ave and Houston, disrupting F service. Hope bad things don't come in threes.
Thanks to both of you!
The building at Second and Houston which partially collapsed is occupied by Irreplaceable Artifacts, the shop which sells various architectural items including old subway signs.
[Hope bad things don't come in threes.]
Sort of: the Brooklyn building blast had three bodies recovered (tenants). This new collapse in the East Village has three persons unaccounted for. Strange coincidence...
Doug aka BMTman
at around noon, i noticed 2 drops in voltage on my tv screen... around 5 this evening, i heard on the radio that con ed had some problem around noon in a westchester transmission line and that it had affected some elevators and subway trains...
was there any disruption in subway service around noon? what happened? how long did it take to clear up?
according to WNBC-TV the 1,2,3,5 were hit by brief delays due to signals going red or out comopletely.
Heypaul, I thought I was going crazy (not really as I would be in your elite company), but I knew something was up as I recall the lights and my computer screen flicked for a split second (also got a split second of static on the radio) just before 12 noon.
So there was some feeder cable problems up in Westchester, huh?
Too bad my bro is out of town -- he could probably fill in the details...
Doug aka BMTman
i initially thought it might have been caused by the r-142's returning an out of phrase voltage degeneration... but the r-142's were not in service today... i heard that they were having a perpetual 30 day calendar installed in their memories...
i initially thought it might have been caused by the r-142's returning an out of phrase voltage degeneration... but the r-142's were not in service today... i heard that they were having a perpetual 30 day calendar installed in their memories...
I finally put 2 and 2 together. Around noon, the lights in my office at 2 WTC flickered twice in the span of 30 seconds. I didn't really connect this with the voltage drop until now.
When I was doing my 12:36 I was coming into Middletown Road and the Signals went red. Luckly my train never went into Emergency because I stopped in time.
dave... did the signals reset by themselves?... how long did it last?...
what is the word on the new equipment being ready for tomorrow?
When you lose A/C power, all the track circuits de-energize and
show danger. Depending on the signal territory, the stop arms
also lose retaining power and will come up underneath a passing
train and trip it. This was a brownout because there was still
enough voltage for the signals to be lit up (PB Dave did say
the signals went red, not dark). In that case the retaining
circuits will probably stay up.
After a disturbance like this, there isn't much to reset. The
relays that remember the routes set up in the interlocking towers
are battery-backed. If you happened to have tripped on an automatic,
the arm will go back down (unless it is one of those no-key
modified jobs), but of course the rulebook requires you to circle
the train anyway. If you were unlucky enough to get tripped by
a homeball, the tower has to give a call-on and you have to walk
back and pull the lever.
I would think that the track circuts would be DC and that the signaling system would have some sort of generator backup.
GACK!!! DC track circuits in a DC electrified railroad>???!!!
Point taken.
I was stopped for 2 Minutes then the signal cleared. I tried to call Control with no luck.
The R142A was still in the barn.
thanks dave... do you know if the 142's were out on the road today?
Read about it here, in this NY Times article.
What article? The link does not work.
Aww, you're too late.
New York Public Library members can Click Here.
Brooklyn Public Library members should go to Manhattan and join NYPL. A BPL membership is a waste of time.
It's a shame NY Times doesn't let you see yesterday's articles. They charge $2.50 per article, way too high of a price for yesterday's news. Of course there is an answer to such ripoffs, but then again don't let me get started again on it?
You'd think a major story such as a city wide power "dip" would get more coverage in the Daily News and Newsday, but no such luck. Well it's off to the library!
Go to Manhattan, sign up for a free, lifetime membership with NYPL and you will get access to ProQuest for 90 day old archives of the NYTimes from the comfort of your own home.
Thanks, I've been thinking of getting an NYPL card anyway!
It might have caused the water to back up into the tunnels causing flooding.
We've all rehashed the problem of subway trains on the Manhattan Bridge many times. Recently, Newsweek ran a cover story on Americans getting fatter and fatter. Personally, about the only exercise I get is walking to different subway lines to vary my commute, getting off in Downtown Brooklyn, and walking over the Brooklyn Bridge. This gave me an idea.
Why not build a station right at the foot of the bridge on the Brooklyn side, and convert the trackways to indoor, all weather pedways. Brooklyites would get off in Brooklyn, walk over the bridge, then get back on at Canal and Grand Street, which would become terminals.
You'd bet 40 minutes of healthful exercise every day, without the cost of a health club. And, there'd be less torsion. Those who didn't wan t the exercise could pack onto tunnel trains at DeKalb and ride to through the Montigue Tunnel. Heck, the walkers would probably get to Midtown faster.
Larry: It sounds like a plan. Unfortunately, I can only enjoy this exercise vicariously since I live in California. But when I'm out running or walking I can think of you guys trying to stay in shape like I try to.
I have a better (well, different) idea: rebuild the existing walkways and use the trackways for LRVs, which would start at DeKalb and use the Broadway Express tracks up to 57th Street. Light weight trains are better than no trains.
Light rail trains are not actually lighter.
Are you sure? They look lighter. If they're not, why call them "light"? Do they run on lighter weight track? Do they have fewer calories?
Because they carry lighter passenger loads, or because they have "lighter" construction (less to build).
Now as for the passenger loads, perhaps some of the torsion is caused by greater passenger loads, but even with light rail, the passengers have to cross the river somehow.
[Why not build a station right at the foot of the bridge on the Brooklyn side, and convert the trackways to indoor, all weather pedways. Brooklyites would get off in Brooklyn, walk over the bridge, then get back on at Canal and Grand Street, which would become terminals.
You'd bet 40 minutes of healthful exercise every day, without the cost of a health club. And, there'd be less torsion. Those who didn't wan t the exercise could pack onto tunnel trains at DeKalb and ride to through the Montigue Tunnel. Heck, the walkers would probably get to Midtown faster.]
You misunderstand human nature. Many people think nothing of jogging ten miles a day in all weather. Others who aren't that athletically inclined enjoy going to the mall and walking a couple of miles as they peruse the various shops. But tell the average person that he or she has to walk more than a couple of hundred feet to use transit, and it's like you had suggested walking barefoot over broken glass. Consider how thousands of LIRR riders will drive far out of their way to get trains at grossly overcrowded electrified stations, bypassing closer, more pleasant diesel stations, because they're too lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses ten feet across the platform at Jamaica.
(Consider how thousands of LIRR riders will drive far out of their way to get trains at grossly overcrowded electrified stations, bypassing closer, more pleasant diesel stations, because they're too lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses ten feet across the platform at Jamaica. )
Thanks to business casual, the anuses no longer need to be suit covered. Perhaps that may induce people to walk across the platform.
I can tell you that the Brooklyn Bridge walkway is getting more and more crowded. It's just a matter of time before a bicycle runs over a child.
Once the Manny B's pedestrian walkway reopens, traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge walkway should be significantly reduced. Bicyclists probably enjoy racing (and beating) the trains over the bridge.
(Once the Manny B's pedestrian walkway reopens, traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge walkway should be significantly reduced. Bicyclists probably enjoy racing (and beating) the trains over the bridge. )
So will those on crutches, and those using canes.
Aw, come on, guys ! The trains don't cross the bridge that slowly anymore. They used to REALLY crawl in the 70's and 80's. Seriously, if you check out this website, there's some info on the re-construction plan, if you want to call it that:
http://www.wai.com/Transportation/Bridges-long/manhattan.html
[(Consider how thousands of LIRR riders will drive far out of their way to get trains at grossly overcrowded electrified stations, bypassing closer, more pleasant diesel stations, because they're too
lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses ten feet across the platform at Jamaica. )
[Thanks to business casual, the anuses no longer need to be suit covered. Perhaps that may induce people to walk across the platform.]
Business casual is one of those trends whose hype greatly exceeds reality. Yes, many employers have switched to business casual (my employer switched several years ago), and it seems as if the men's suit industry is in a bad way, but ride the LIRR and you'll see veritable acres of worsted wool. Suit-wearers certainly don't seem like an endangered species.
One thing I have noticed is that suits are more common on the Ronkonkoma line than on the Montauk/Patchogue line. I attribute this to the fact that suit-wearers are more likely to be big shots and therefore more likely to insist on a (supposedly) more convenient single-seat ride. I've also noticed that women seem to have taken to casual attire much more than have men, although that could be due to the fact that the formal/casual distinction is less pronounced with respect to women's clothing.
I just saw on TV that plants are being shut down due to soaring electricity costs. We've got soaring gas prices, rising electricity prices, droughts and blackouts. Ralph Nader is back, running on the green line.
Yes, everything old is new again. Little did we know that a return to bell bottoms would bring back all this other stuff.
Time for Subtalkers to put out the word: use mass transit, use less energy.
I was thinking of pushing miniskirts
will Rudy save the city from another Blackout,Management at Con-Ed must just love him!Bring back the Edzel.
Well I'll be off line until Monday night. I am not dragging the laptop to Maine!!!
I hope to see any and all Subtalkers at Seashore Saturday or Boston Sunday.
I hope to see Todd doing "Bus Turns" in the hotel parking lot.
I hope my 6'8" 300lb frame can survive this long car trip....
So see ya at the Seashore!!
i was just reading through ed davis's book "they moved the millions"... ed described that the r-44's were given high speed trials on the lirr when they were first delivered... they attained a speed of 83 mph, a speed at which they were never again operated on ta tracks, except in the minds of railfans...
what i found particularly intriguing was
" A fact which was never released to the public was that high speed operation blew half the traction motors out on them."
is what ed reported widely known now?
and what i was curious about was
a) were the traction motors burnt out?
b) were the fuses or circuit breakers blown out?
c) were the motors actually blown off their mounts?
i would highly recommend ed's book both for his history of the various subway cars and for his own personal experience and opinions on the equipment...
Blowing a traction motor means burning it up..but it would blow in glory, remain mounted, etc. A little quiet puff of smoke would be no fun. The information about this was given to us by the motor instructor who was qualifying us on them when they were new, so it isn't railbuff story. I won't swear to this but I'd heard years ago that in the early days the IRT had a trial with tapping fields for high speed and one of the beloved old trains actually topped 70. EG if a car or loco is geared let's say for 50, under normal controller operation it can go no faster or the motor will act as a generator; so "tap" the field by reducing its strength and the motor can exceed normal balancing speed. thanx paul.
Which old train was that? You got me thinking - if 50 mph was about Ab above middle C in terms of bull and pinion gear whine, and if a change of one semitone equals app. 5 mph, then we'd be talking C above middle C for 70 mph. This is pure speculation, naturally.
Most likely if the story is true it would have been a Low-V, as with the exception of the different geared and motored Steinways the Low-V's were the newest. But it could have been a High-V or Flivver.Idea: see if you can locate a recording of the Chicago, North Shore & Milw. on the Skokie Valley route. I taped one off a published LP record. You can really hear traction motors singing at speed. Then maybe you could figure out the key, would be 70-75 MPH with traditional traction motor sounds.
I've never heard of this but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
All of the Lo-Vs had one notch of field tapping (as opposed
to field shunting, a subtle difference) for higher speed.
70 MPH though? I doubt it. Unless the gearing were changed,
those old GE259 motors would self-destruct at that speed.
Here's a thought: AFAIK, the DC motors on subway cars are series motors which must have a load when operated. Without a load, they keep speeding up until they literally fly apart. Could it be that the same thing could have happened during those R-44 tests? Even though they were operating under load, could those motors have reached such a high rate of rpms that they flew apart as if they had no load?
Jets of air actually raised the motors up into the air.
I remember someone on this site explaining that the speed was so fast that the centrifigual force on the motor windings pulled them off the armature causing the motor to "Bird Cage" or seize up, and the trains then screeched along for a ways.
All things come to those who wait fifty-one years. Effective this coming Sunday, July 16, the Chicago Transit Authority's Brown Line (the Ravenswood to us living fossils) will resume weekend service through to the Loop, for the first time since the North-South service restructuring of August 1, 1949. Since then, Ravenswood Branch service has consisted only of a shuttle between Kimball and Belmont (or, I believe, at one time, Fullerton), where a connection has been made with Red Line trains operating downtown and through to the South Side via the State Street Subway.
The expansion will provide new Saturday and Sunday service at the Merchandise Mart, Chicago, Sedgwick, Armitage, Diversey, and Wellington stations, as well as additional trains for weekend riders at Fullerton and Belmont.
For the CTA's press release, put out a couple of months before the event, see:
http://www.transitchicago.com/news/ctaandpress.wu?action=displayarticledetail&articleid=114914
--
Alan Follett
Chicagoan-in-exile, Hercules, CA
Chicagoan-in-exile, Hercules, CA
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a prevailing mentality among Chicagoans that "Once a Chicagoan, Always a Chicagoan"? People here in Boston are already getting sick of me talking about how much I love Chicago, and even a couple people here have commented that almost every other person they've met from Chicago have also been fiercely loyal to their hometown.
There must be something truly special about a city that can command that sort of loyalty, especially from many people such as myself who were born and raised elsewhere but ended up adopting Chicago as home later on in life. One of the things that is most striking about Chicago is that people there usually accept you as a Chicagoan even if you've only been living there a week; you don't need to have lived in Chicago for sixteen generations before people finally accept you as a "real" Chicagoan. And during the whole seven years I lived there, I never met a single person who wished they lived elsewhere. Pretty incredible, IMO.
Any thoughts?
-- David
Another Chicagoan-in-exile, Boston, MA
Well take it from me I feel the same way. I was born in Sea-town, moved to Chicago when I was 5, and moved back to the northwest when i was 12, and have lived here since (I am now 17) but I still consider Chiacago "home". It's weird too - if I could live anywhere I'd probably live in Portland, Oregon... but even then I still think of Chicago as being home. I think the something about Chicago is its uniqueness. There really isn't any other city quite like it. And what you say about being accepted as a Chicagoan is completely true - I have lived in this hell-hole called the "Puget Sound Area" for 5 years and I'm still not considered a true native of the town I live in (Puyallup). My whole childhood was entrenched in Chiacgo. I have fond memories of riding the metra in to go visit dad, trips to Comiskey in the family car, trips to Wrigley on Metra and the Red line.... going to the top of the sears tower more than a few times - I mean there IS just something about Chicago.
Chicagoan-in-exile, South Puget Sound Metro Area, WA
Heck, I only lived there summers as a kid (hanging out with maternal granfather) and then for a year and change after quitting college, but I consider Chicago my second hometown. If I were fabulously wealthy I would have a home there as well as Ny and the Bay Area. I mean where are there more trains anyway--besides I will never forget my 11 year old discovery of the L nose pressed to glass at the front of a string of 6000's headed South. I have a destination sign from one in my dining room--Jackson Park Howard B Train. Dorchester the next.
(If I were fabulously wealthy I would have a home there as well as NY and the Bay Area.)
I just checked out the National Association of Realtors site today, and it said that the median sales price of existing one-family homes in the SF bay area is now $466,000. The national average is $133,000; the New York area is getting overpriced again at $221,000. What the hell is going on?
It sounds like if you own a house in the Bay Area, you can sell it and get a home in New York (well, Brooklyn) and Chicago, and have some money left over.
All over the country communities zone out affordable housing to keep the poor and even working class at bay, thereby reducing taxes while still being able to afford decent services. What is it like to live in a fully gentrified region? How much do plumbers cost?
[I just checked out the National Association of Realtors site today, and it said that the median sales price of existing one-family homes in the SF bay area is now $466,000. The national average is $133,000; the New York area is getting overpriced again at $221,000. What the hell is going on?
It sounds like if you own a house in the Bay Area, you can sell it and get a home in New York (well, Brooklyn) and Chicago, and have some money left over.]
San Francisco has been very expensive for many years. I worked in the mortgage lending field in the middle and late 1980's, and was pretty well up on price trends, and even back then Bay Area prices were about the highest in the country. I say "even back then" to refer to such a recent period because the intervening years have seen explosive growth in the high-tech industry in Silicon Valley and other parts of the Bay Area. In addition, it's often not realized that San Francisco, mainly the city itself, is second only to New York as a financial center. Montgomery Street is quite accurately called "Wall Street West." High-paying technology and financial jobs quickly translate into high housing prices.
There are a couple of other factors behind San Francisco's high prices. Bay Area geography is such that there are considerable physical constraints on suburban development. San Francisco is not like, say, Phoenix or Atlanta, where there are few natural barriers to development. Less developable land also leads to higher prices. Finally, there's the hard-to-quantify but no less real trendiness factor. San Francisco is the sort of city whose lifestyle attracts ambitious young people from all over the country. Sure, New York also is that way to some extent, but there's a crucial difference - when the ambitious young people get a little older, especially when they have families of their own, many of them move away. Don't forget that NYC's population would have fallen during the 1990's but for foreign immigration. By contrast, in San Francisco most of the ambitious young people stay on, in the metropolitan area if not necessarily the city , when they get older and acquire families. Most of the (now ended and possibly reversed) migration of working-age Californians to other western states came from the Los Angeles area rather than from the Bay Area.
First off, forgive my perhaps off topic comment and judgemenatal point of view but, every moring(and I have said this part for thirty plus years) a busload of bright eyed kids hit PAuthority itching to write the next off Broadway play, new concept novel screenplay, be THE magazine editor. Well thre same is true of the Bay Area. -- Now as to prices-- San Francisco itself may be seeb as the analog of Manhattan, and to some extent Oakland Berkeley Emeryville Richmond San Leandro Hayward Fremont are a mix of Brooklyn/Queens with the added special case of Berkeley itself also a major destination point--the University of California--at the south end of the Bay we have this anomalous large thing called variously San Jose, Sillicon Valley etc. So the bright guys from Stanford(Palo Alto went there and created the computers we are all using, (actually some of it happened in Berkeley, Emeryville and Hayward too). Okay they filled the SJ area with one and two story buildings--the Cisco Systems "Campus" instead of a 'p[roper' corporate skyscraper. Imagine if you will the square footage of some random Manhattan tower done as two and maybe three story buildings spread out with greenswards. Next there is no housing for most of these workers so they are driving up to two hours sothey can live somewhere else(and as I see it not near any ofd 'them')Next we had the dot-com/media gulch wave in the last couple of years. This time the bright young things wanted to ber IN SF not outside. Sort of like the nouveau high tech firms in old buildings downtown I read about ion the Times. AND they want to live in SF 'cause that's where the music etc. is(and we haven't even mentioned the whole gay influx either in general or to SF in particular--again similar to New York for decades) So when your stock option/IPO profit check is 3 mill, and you want a house NOW you just pick the one yopu like and steamroller the competition. The underlying problem has been that SF for a long time has done very little toincrease net housing units at ANY price except back door frauds (live-work lofts where the work consists of occasional telecommuting but the loopholes in the building codes have been exploited to the max.) So more people no more units equals old units increase in pricwe. Tranist content--the good news is that BART has finally gained back the riders they drove away with draconian fare increases AND since then actually reached a new plateau around 325k/day(closed overnight) and the recently extended F Market trolley line is sardines all day(MUNI doesn't have enough cars to field more service--if they did that would fill out too.
(The underlying problem has been that SF for a long time has done very little toincrease net housing units at ANY price except back door frauds (live-work lofts where the work consists of occasional
telecommuting but the loopholes in the building codes have been exploited to the max.) So more people no more units equals old units increase in price.)
Same is true, but to a lesser extent, in NYC, except for one thing. There is plenty of land out there where you can build a six to eight story apartment building with 50 percent lot coverage and little or no parking, but developers (who are now interested in those neighborhoods). But developers are not happy. They want to build 40 story buildings. You give 'em more, they want more. Just as taxes are always too high, no matter how high they are, and we never give enough public dollars to the health care industry.
The other difference is that we have far above average poverty in NYC, so the lack of low income housing shouldn't be considered a problem unless EVERY poor person in the U.S. is supposed to live here. I had heard that SF is not so rich that low income housing is disappearing from the region, as well as just the city.
Just another result of being too loose on Capitalism. There needs to be more control over these "rich eat poor, dog eat dog" trends that are happening.
I think there is an easy answer to the skyrocketing real estate costs and that is having some government control to keep prices down and require affordable housing to be built in every neighborhood.
What you propose is called rent control, when applied to the market in general it's called price fixing.
What socialists fail to realize is that all that price fixing does is prevent the producers from producing the product. Why should someone produce something if they're not going to make any money off of it? Don't give me any of your "greater good" crap.
See my other post. What I want is "planning" you know, if they are going to build three thousand houses you tax them a school and infrastructure fee because neither the waterm toad or sewage systems appear deo gratias . Our beloved subways (and all of the others worldwide IIRC) are socialkist ventures, and as we 'speak' Norfolk Southern is trying to get Virginia to pay $800 mill for improvement of the Hagerstown(Md.)-Bristol (Tenn.) line--"socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor?"
Rather even than mandating "affordable" I think the issues are two--if you want to build office space, you MUST also build or pay someone else to build the equivalent housing units, two thedevelopers MUST be forced to underwritwe massive new tranist construction. NY needs the Second Ave line, if not the entire Second System TODAY. The Bay area needs similar mileages of serious 24/7 transit. And instead of maximuim height restrictions for offices they should be minimum (that is NO LESS THAN) The waste of open space on tw-three story offices iks outrageos.
That's the absolute truth, folks. Once a Chicagoan, always a Chicagoan! Unlike natives of many localities, we don't impose litmus tests on new arrivals.
This isn't to say that Chicago doesn't have its share of provincial neighborhoods and ugly incidents. Unfortunately, it does! But bit by bit, over time, people's attitudes are changing --- for the better.
As for me, I was born and bred here (or maybe ill-bred). With the exception of a stint in the Army (as a draftee) I've lived here in the city all my life. So my choice of a handle was no accident.
Peace and happiness, folks.
-Dan Terkell
Well, as a native NY'er who has lived extensively in Boston and elsewhere, I can say that Chicago is the most open and (small d and large D) democratic place I have ever been. Of course, after Boston, anyplace else on this side of the Atlantic is open and democratic. Even NYC is a model of egalitarian sentiment compared to Boston. Chicago actively wants people to move here and like it. It is a city on the make, which I mean as a compliment.
I am a Chicagoan that just happens to live in Los Angeles.
Where else in the world could one have experienced:
1. The Chicago Aurora and Elgin Railway,
2. Open-platform wood cars on the Ravenswood "L",
3. Red Pullman streetcars,
4. Wood Met cars on the Garfield Park "L",
And of course,
5. Marshall Field & Company at Christmas
6. The Art Institute
I miss it all every day.
You left out--the open rear vestibule of green IC MU's on a hot summer day at speed on the racetrack between 23rd and 53rd.
The CNSM--the conductor "throwing the trolley pole as we coasted down the hill after leaving Howard. AND the architecture! even lame banks have neat looking buildings!
I was born and raised in the Bronx, at l8 I made my first visit to Chi (l96l) and the first thing I noticed was that people were more sociable.And of course I loved the L (thats what the last letter in my handle means--for Chicago). I felt you could talk to a Chicagoan, not a New Yorker. It really came home to me in l976 when I visited, despite the social upheaval of the 60's and 70's that happened in so many cities, and I felt so out of place in NYC, here I visited Chicago and I felt that people were nicer than I'd known before. I"m sure there are a lot of the "cats" in Chicago as any city that I'd want no part of, and had better hide. But for the most part I as a white man was treated so nicely, especially by CTA people, of any color but mostly black, other than the L that's why I love Chicago: THE PEOPLE. That's why I call Chicago my adopted city.By the way I visited again in l992, 96, 97, 98, and last year again. Still nice.
I was born and raised in the Bronx, at l8 I made my first visit to Chi (l96l) and the first thing I noticed was that people were more sociable.And of course I loved the L (thats what the last letter in my handle means--for Chicago). I felt you could talk to a Chicagoan, not a New Yorker. It really came home to me in l976 when I visited, despite the social upheaval of the 60's and 70's that happened in so many cities, and I felt so out of place in NYC, here I visited Chicago and I felt that people were nicer than I'd known before. I"m sure there are a lot of the "cats" in Chicago as any city that I'd want no part of, and had better hide. But for the most part I as a white man was treated so nicely, especially by CTA people, of any color but mostly black, other than the L that's why I love Chicago: THE PEOPLE. That's why I call Chicago my adopted city.By the way I visited again in l992, 96, 97, 98, and last year again. Still nice.
This Ravenswood stuff reawakens a thought I have always wondered about. When the Ravenswood line, which runs local on a four-track line between Belmont & Fullerton (or even Armitage), is not running, why does the Red Line continue to run on the express tracks and skip those local stations? Why has it never just switched to the outer tracks, then back to the middle for subway service? If there are no switch tracks, why did they never build them?
Second CTA question: Why doesn't the relatively brand new Orange Line run 24 hours a day?
Third Thought: I noticed on the CTA board that they are introducing Smart Cards. They seem to be similar to those in Washington. I wonder if they will be compatible... If they are it could be the beginning of a nationwide transit payment card system, maybe...
"When the Ravenswood line, which runs local on a four-track line between Belmont & Fullerton (or even Armitage), is not running, why does the Red Line continue to run on the express tracks and skip those local stations?"
Because that would only affect two stations, Wellington and Diversey. (They can't have the Red Line train stop at Armitage because the platforms are almost directly across from the subway portal.) And the Brown Line wasn't so popular until the last ten years or so, so such an idea wouldn't have even occurred to the CTA until recent years.
"Second CTA question: Why doesn't the relatively brand new Orange Line run 24 hours a day?"
Because, though it does serve the neighborhoods between Midway and downtown, the main traffic of the Orange Line is Midway Airport. The airport isn't open 24 hours a day, so the line isn't either.
"If they are it could be the beginning of a nationwide transit payment card system, maybe..."
The revenue apportionment problems (how would WMATA get paid when someone used a CTA card on their system?) would be absolutely murderous.
If nothing else I can offer that I've been on the Brown line often when I visit, and even the Sunday shuttle from Belmont north was packed. You'd think even if 24-hour service to the Loop on Ravenswood isn't justified it would be to have the l6 hour or whatever service run 7 days a week. I feel the business is there, and the ride from the North into the loop is a nice scenic ride. (Most of it... especially the grand entry crossing the river). The only city in the country where this is possible, it could be promoted for tourists too. , for extra revenue.
I plan to be riding that first Ravenswood looper Sunday. It is a great idea, there are only two problems with it, one Sunday service should have ran to the loop on Sundays years ago, and two, the trains will be running without conductors.
Guess I spoke too soon before posting my other message. I'm more than pleased to hear that the Ravenswood [count me among the fossils] will run into the loop seven days a week. I might have my memories wrong but I swear I rode it on a Saturday on my l992 visit, and perhaps since.{ You say weekend service reinstated}. I was thinking it was a shuttle only on Sundays, and nights.
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Re: CTA Brown Line Weekend Service
bigedirtmanl wrote:
> I might have my memories wrong but I swear I rode
> it on a Saturday on my l992 visit, and perhaps since.
> { You say weekend service reinstated}. I was thinking
> it was a shuttle only on Sundays, and nights.
Er, my mistake; comes of not getting back to Chicago often enough. Yes, the Brown/Ravenswood has always run into the Loop on Saturdays, so the subject line should more accurately have been "CTA Brown Line Sunday Service."
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I am Scheduled to run the 8:08 Pelham and I did on Tuesday and Wednesday. On Tuesday for the 8:08 the train got to Brooklyn Bridge 15 Minutes late do to a back up involing all Downtown No.6 trains. At 8:11AM a Downtown No.6 Local went BIE at Hunts Point causeing No.6 Local trains put down the Express Track. It was a very slow ride starting from Westchester SQ to Brooklyn Bridge. Then as I entered 125 St a Downtown No.6 was taken out of Service at 59 Street cause more delays with the No.6 Line service. Now at 125 the R142A did have a 2 Minute delay because of the Dispatcher. The Dispatcher said I was going to be rerouted Express from 125 St to Grand Central so I start reprograming the Computer. Then he changed the order saying I was going to continue making all local stops so once again time to reprogram the Computer back to the way it was. Also the signs messed up. As I was leaving E 143 St the sign said Hunts Point was the next stop.
Wednesday-
The Automated Annoutsment Failed for the 8:08 Pelham and what A good
time. When I entered Brooklyn Bridge guess who was waiting. Chief Officer Mr. Ford Ass. Chief Officer of A Div. Mr. Gaul and Ass. Chief Officer of B Div. Mr. O'Connell and other people from Jay Street. All those BIG RTO Supt. stepped into my cab and watched me operate all the way to Pelham Bay Park. During the whole time the PA did not work my Conductor had to make the annoutsments.
Dislikes about the R142A
- Annoutsment are too long
-Doors close too slow
-Having to reprogram a Computer at Terminal or anytime the train passes a stop or is rerouted. This will delay service
- Passengers messing with the Intercom. It had all ready happened. You have to investigate every time a button is pushed
As of now the R 142A does average a 2 Minute lateness in the Afternoon but on time in the Morning with a Lite load.
- Passengers messing with the Intercom. It had all ready happened. You have to investigate every time a button is pushed
MTA should probably add those alarmed cover boxes to cover the intercom, similar to those in today's redbirds covering the emergency cord.
The computer reprogramming sounds too tedious. Replace it with articulate announcements and a plain route map like those in R62/R62A's and Chicago's Blue Line (only line I rode while I was there last month, the one to/from O'Hare). With those, you won't need a digitized route map.
Passengers messing with the Intercom. It had all ready happened. You have to investigate every time a button is pushed
Simple solution. Small camera mounted in the car enabling the T/O or conductor to see who's using the intercom. Could make identification of abusers easier. Violators fined.
--Mark
You would think such a solution, which is very meritable, would work.
But not here in NYC, no.
Guaranteed there will be protesters marching up and down the sidewalks outside City Hall and Jay Street that the closed circuit camera will be a violation of constitutional rights.
After all, someone needlessly abusing the PA system and disrupting service is everyone's g*d-given right, is it not?
Great, you've run those things! Let me cut to the chase:
How is the acceleration (felt about the same as SMEE as
a passenger for a few stops)
How is the braking? (was herky-jerky but I think that was
the T/O, not the train)
How do these cars perform on the long upgrades in the river
tubes? Do they hold their speed better than the (castrated)
SMEE cars?
The Acceleration is good however stopping you have to hit the brakes early because of the A/C Traction but I hope to practice a little more when ever they get the train back on the road. The train is smooth and there should not be any herky Jurky. The only stations I experanced a Jurk was leaving 51 St and 77 St Northbound. The train does take the hills ok as long as you keep the train in full power.
I wonder how HBLR is doing ironing out its computer announcement problems?
"I wonder how HBLR is doing ironing out its computer announcement problems?"
Since no one responded, I went to see (Listen) for myself. HBLR is still struggling with it. Sometimes it works; sometimes not.
Not necessarily, All of the cars are programmed and ready for announcements. The NJT-HBLR Personnel told me that the Automated Announcement System will not be fully used until the Hoboken Extenstion is completed. Though some operators use the Automated System due to pure laziness in not wanting to annouce the stops. But all cars are programmed and work!
Trevor Logan
I didn't mean to suggest that they don't all work, just that I observed that they don't all work correctly.
WHy can't there just be a button to bypass THAT station. So you hit it a few times if you reroute express on the line. Simple no?
There should be preprogramed sequences of stations. A to should be able to select a sequece and if modifications are needed just be able to cut and paste to correct it
07/14/2000
Pelham Bay Dave,
These automated announcments are already becoming a major headache. Wanna bet they kill the idea and remove them? As far as those passenger emergency panels are concerned, they may go too. Imagine every dummy pressing the button to ask for directions or "can you please turn down the A/C, I'm freezin' here".
The more modern you make em' the worse they are. Remember the R-46 with ATO? GONE! Also remember the R-62/62A,68/68A? Wasn't there a thing involved to go back to basics like the controller and brake handles?
Bill "Newkirk"
The MTA should finally learn it's lesson and correct problematic components instead of discarding them.
Thomas Edison tried a number of different materials as light bulb filament before finding carbon. Under your fallacious theory, he should have given up on the first try and gone back to the basic gas or oil lamp, as opposed to changing the world with one of man's most significant inventions.
I disagree with your analogy. The MTA is a Goverment Agency. Thomas Edison was an inventor.
Peace,
ANDEE
What does that have to do with it?
The solution to a problem is not giving up. I can, I just won't use any old cliches.
And in the two times I rode the R-142A on Wednesday, the announcements did not have a SINGLE problem.
What we have here is things being blown out of proportion. Every incident of failure is well documented and leads to a mountain of complaints and cries of "lemon!" However, if we were to treat a successful operation the same way, then everybody would get tired of all of the touting of success.
You must of rode the R 142A sometime after 12:30PM because the AUTO Annoutsments where not working on the 8:08 Pelham nor the 6AM or 10:24AM. The Supt's where not happy when they rode my train. When I operated the train for my 12:36 the problems where fixed at Zerga Ave.
The R-142A has no annoutsments, no train does. It's not a real word.
And the word is clichés, not cliches. What's your point?
I didn't want to bother figuring out which escape sequence or ASCII code represents the é.
My point is I didn't use a cliché to show why the MTA shouldn't just give up on new technology and be forever stuck in the past.
I did neither, I have my keyboard set to 'International'. I just typed an apostrophe followed by an e. Of course, that leads to problems, like if I'm not careful, I'll end up with Ï instead of "I, or ý instead of 'y.
Right now those annoutsments are too long and take up too much time. I hope they do away with the Intercom and speed up the Annoutsments and door operation. Those R142 doors should move like the R 62. Then there will be less time in the stations and the train would move good staying on time.
The ANNOUNCEMENTS are fine, they just have too many of those "Thank you for riding" and "Please don't hold the doors" announcements.
The intercoms should stay, who knows when they'll be needed. Install a print reader on the button. That should help catch perps.
Yes, this was posted exclusively for the purpose of correcting spelling, but the same error is repeated over and over by the same person.
The R42 Passenger alarm system was a disaster. Naturally, it will be similar on the R142.
Funny, many other transit systems have intercoms. But it hasn't worked well the first week in NYC, and we tried it once before and it didn't work. So lets give up.
Horse drawn vehicles are much simpler. They don't have all this newfangled stuff on them, like computers and 'lectricity. We should go back to that - they'll never get out all the bugs on that "modern stuff."
The R-42 had a passenger alarm system? I never knew that. What are the details?
Peace,
ANDEE
A few R42's on the J line were fitted with strips near the doors and windows that activated an alarm in the conductor's cab. They were removed because of all the false alarms that were issued by them.
This was about 4-5 years ago.
Oh, so then they were added during GOH then?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, well after, and in only a small number of cars.
[The R42 Passenger alarm system was a disaster. Naturally, it will be similar on the R142.]
Passenger alarms work just fine on PATH. I believe it is criminally negligent that NYCT hasn't installed them on all subway cars.
(Passenger alarms work just fine on PATH. I believe it is criminally negligent that NYCT hasn't installed them on all subway cars)
Don't give laywers a millimeter. They will take a light year.
Today I got this bombshell from a friend who claims that a known rapid-transit modeler acquired (some years ago) a set of R 1-9 model cars in O gauge that according to legend were custom-built for icon Frank Sinatra. Anyone out there know anything about this? Is it true. Was Sinatra a closet subway-buff? And what are the cars made of? How many were made, etc, etc, etc.
Inquiring minds want to know!
Doug aka BMTman
I do know that Sinatra was quite the toy train buff. He had a very elaborate O gauge train layout in California that was loosely based on the Lionel Corp train layout in New York.
He was also a long time member of Train Collectors Assoc.
Considering all of this it is very likely that he might have had a custom made set of IND R-9's.
frank Sinatra's O gauge layout was covered in one chapter of a book called "Great Toy Train Layouts" (not to be confused with the Video set by the same name). If my memory serves me correctly, the Frank Sinatra layout was strictly Lionel Pre-war equipment. While this does not eliminate the possibility that he did have R-9 subway cars, they were not mentioned in the chapter.
I hate to disagree with you but Sinatra bought a lot of his trains from my dad in the early 1950's. My dad worked at FAO Schwarz from 1950 to 1958 as the Lionel train salesman.
Frank supposedly had someone build him a train layout roughly based on the Lionel NY layout from the 1949-1957 time period.
Frank was born in Hoboken, so he could have had a fondness for NY subway cars.
Train buffs have been known to change their interests, so it is possible that he might have gotten interested in prewar trains later on in life.
All this could be true. I was mearly reporting on what I had read in the specific book. I have no independent knowledge beyond that point.
Indeed it is a fact or I was misinformed. The master el modeller in Philly who says he is Rembrandt, I admit having seen photos of his work he is, but I'd rather not mention his name as I think he's dropped out of sight told me the story. Frank {RIP by the way to a great icon} had ordered the R9's custom built, when the builder presented the bill of about $1000 per car Frank backed out, guess I can't blame him but for the labor involved that works both ways. S o that's how the present owner, or whomever got them, got them. I think they were brass (?), don't know how many. By the way Frank wasn't alone in Hollywood as a model rail. There were others. [Wish I weren't so long winded, this has been a long night].
10 were made. Five went to Sinatra (Still with the family) The other five now belongs to a collector who I'd rather not name. If you were at the show in Kendall Park a few weeks ago, They were on display there along with the Bluebird models. (Hint)
That is correct. I don't believe the reason Mr. Sinatra "backed out" had anything to do with money. The original builder of the cars (they were hand crafted in brass) took an inordinate amount of time to construct them. Considering what was involved, this is not surprising. BUT, Frank Sinatra was accustomed to having things when HE wanted them (again, no surprise considering his stature as an entertainer). In the end, the gentlemen who contracted the order for Mr. Sinatra worked out an arrangement where Frank took five cars, and he took the remaining five. The five for Sinatra were on tinplate trucks (I don't know the details). The other five are O scale two-rail DC, and are owned by a well known modeler in New Jersey. BTW, Sinatra's California home (including the toy train layout and collection) were sold prior to his death to a private party. It is unlikely that the "original" five Sinatra R-1/9's are still in the Sinatra family.
All this brings to mind: what happened to the R-1-9 models displayed in the City of NY exhibit at the 1939 NY World's Fair? (Way before my time). Also where are the HO scale PATH PA 1's displayed in the 1964-65 fair. (during my time). Anyone know?
Joe C.
I don't know about the 1964-1965 vintage PATH cars, but I DO remember the LIRR exhibit at the fair and they had a layout depicting Long Island. It was not very elaborate -- the diesel trains were powered by custom-painted GP9's (most likely Athearn...) but all the passenger cars (m.u. and the diesel-hauled cars) were custom made relicas of the MP75 "Zip" cars (LIRR 2525-2536 and 2675-2692).
At the concluson of the fair, I did write the LIRR regarding the passenger cars, and they replied saying that they were all destroyed!!! What a shame, as they were decorated beautifully, and looked very much like the real thing!
From the Engine 35 Restoration website
"Two recent acquisitions are the World's Fair displays currently located at the site of the former Tanglewood Day Camp in Lynbrook, NY. They have been on that site for the past 30 years. On February 13, we cleaned up and prepared the displays for their move to Mitchel Field. The Alco FA-1 cab section and the rear end of an observation car were used by the LIRR in their pavilion at the 1964 World's Fair and are two of the most well known pieces of rail equipment on the Island."
Funny thing is, that FA cab (which was NH 0401) was really a harbinger of things to come on the LIRR!! Little did we know in 1964 that six years later, FA's would actually show up in LIRR colors!!!
IIRC the Port Authority had an exhibit on the ground floor underneath the heli-pad (today a catering hall and restaurant). The exhibit had an HO scale of their system with model subway cars in the shape of the Hawker Siddley cars that were on order.
Anyone a) remember them? and b) what became of them?
I wish I had known about this when we visited the World's Fair - 35 years ago today, as a matter of fact.
Steve,
To put your mind at ease concerning those HO 1964 World's Fair Zip car models: In the late 1970's I used to do business with a Graham Harvey who used to own Eastli Hobbies in Massapequa.
Graham had a couple of those original cars you talked about. At a distance they looked good, however, up close you would see that they were only crude conversions of Athearn cars with the correct World's Fair stenciling and colors.
When Graham's hobby shop went out of business he offered me those cars for but alas if you remember that was the time when all kinds of brass model of the LIRR were being produced, so I passed them up for an accurate brass model that was never produced.
Don't know what became of those cars or for that matter Graham Harvey.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Right you are.
I have seen them for myself and the detail is quite awesome.
The Bluebird models, too!
--Mark
07/14/2000
Frank Sinatra a possible closet train buff? WOW!, maybe the fascination with Hoboken Terminal he saw when boarding the H&M to NYC for his very early years as a singer (pre bobby sox era)had an effect. I was told Tom Snyder is also a train or train model buff.
Bill "Newkirk"
[I was told Tom Snyder is also a train or train model buff.]
Tom Snyder had a TV crew on a steam fantrip years ago. IIRC, it was former FEC #148 from Scranton to Bay Head Jct and back. A friend of mine rode the trip and was disgusted because a TV crew was perched on the locomotive during the photo-runby videotaping the railfans trying to photograph the train. Video shot by Snyder's crew on the fantrip was used on his late night show. I fell asleep waiting for it to come on, but awakened to the sound of the steam whistle when the segment began.
Bob
Today marked my first visit to those obscure corners of the Bronx known as City Island and Orchard Beach. I took the #6 express (redbird) out to Pelham Bay Park and utilized my free transfer to the Bx29 (4484) and rode out to CI. The bus trip was a little shorter than I expected and it traveled through Pelham Bay Park. By looking at it, it seems like a nice place, but how safe is it? (at no time, BTW, did I feel unsafe). I may venture into it sometime in the future.
City Island is not at all what I expected! I was expecting a somewhat run-down or deserted area, but was pleasantly surprised to find a piece of a Jersey Shore community with rows of seafood restaurants next to each other.
I got off the bus at the end of the line - it was literally the end! The bus had to make a u-turn on City Island Avenue - there was no block to go around.
I took the next Bx29 (9469) back to PBP station and transfered to the Bx12 (5291) to Orchard Beach. It took almost the same route as the 29, but obviously ended at OB instead of CI.
Orchard Beach is not bad. There weren't that many people there at that time, although the buses were running every few minutes. I assume the place is swarming on the weekends. The bus stop is kind of wierd - resembles a bus stop at a Disney park, with a platform-type area and gates and lines. There were even turnstiles and a change booth, although they were closed off (why do they have them anyway)? This settup is indicitive of huge crowds, so again I assume Orchard Beach sees swarms of people on summer weekends.
I took bus #5343 back to PBP station and went upstairs just to miss a redbird by a second! Another redbird came in a minute later, but went out of service. A few minutes later, an R-62 came in and that was my ride out of there. I was keeping an eye out for the R-142, but then found out here that it wasn't running today.
BTW, the express track extends all the way to Pelham Bay Park, so why doesn't express service run all the way to PBP? I did see a train (R-62) laid-up just past 177th St. station and another laid-up train (redbird) further down, so I probably just answered my own question.
Anyway, I will probably return to this area in the future for some more exploring.
I figure that Pelham Bay Park's remoteness, and the fact that there are no questionable neighborhoods surrounding it makes it quite safe.
Probably at night too, that thing is like a forest far from the city.
In fact, if it wasn't for the paving, Pelham Bridge Road would look exactly like the old roads that once crossed a bucolic Bronx.
If you were expecting a run down area, why did you bother to go there? Urban decay chic? The first time I went to City Island, I expected a quiet residential area.
As for why there is no express service to Pelham Bay Park, there aren't enough passengers there to justify it. However with passengers from Buhre, Middletown, Westchester Square, Zerega and Castle Hill, it's enough.
why doesn't express service run all the way to PBP?
It's not the layup, its the fact that express service would be pretty useless, since the only people who would benefit were people going to PBP. Though, a summertime express would be useful, beach / parkgoers could use it, also I see many day camps have field trips to the park and change at 125th. Of course, the express would have to go in reverse peak order, conflicting with rush hour service.
There are areas which could benefit from express service more than the Phelham line: The 2 and 4 in the Bronx, the J in Brooklyn, and the N and F in Queens.
Also to add alittle Between 9:30AM and 11AM you have layups from Pelham and Parkchester going to Westchester Yard. Then around 3PM you have trains coming from the Yard going to Pelham or Parkchester. Also the Parkchester trains use the Middle track between Parkchester and Castle Hill for Relays. Pelham uses the Middle track at Buhre to keep a train on stand by in case there is a delay in service there would be a train there ready to go.
City Island is usually said to resemble a New England fishing village. The whole area seems safe to me. A few years ago we walked (Yes, walked.) from Pelham Station into the park to the Pell-Bartow Mansion and then on to City Island for the Undersea Museum followed be dinner. I wanted to walk to the end of the island but the people with me insisted on stopping about half way. We took the BX 29 back to the mainland, transfered to the BX 12 towards Fordham and then transfered to a 5 train back to Manhattan.
Yes, that is one the forgotten corners of the city. I always thought the various rural roads you must travel from the Bruckner or Hutch to City Island were limited access parkways because of all the wooden lamp posts lining them. Many years ago I took the BX12 (before the great Bronx bus renumbering) to the end. I never saw a transit bus go so fast!
It's probably better to go on a mild fall or winter day, because City Island is somewhat touristy on summer weekends. The fact that there's only one way on and off, and one through street running the length of the island makes for horrendous traffic jams.
Just this past Saturday, we had to go to a surprise 90th birthday party (not a good idea, if you ask me!) at Villa Barone, located directly opposite the Pelham Bay terminal. Coming from Queens on the Throgs Neck, a lack of a Westchester Avenue exit off the northbound Bruckner means you have to get off the expressway early and use local streets through Throgs Neck, Country Club and Pelham Bay. My parents (who were raised in the West Farms/East Tremont area) couldn't BELIEVE this was the Bronx- single family houses, boat trailers in driveways, the smell of barbecue smoke.
A few times around sunset I came outside to get some air (and escape repeated DJ playings of "I Will Survive"). Every few seconds a BX12 from Orchard Beach would pull in and dozens of people with coolers would scramble off the buses and up the subway stairs. Many stopped into the pizza parlor attached to the restaruant. There were a lot of livery cars hanging around also. What had been a pretty quiet area at 4:00 pm became very bustling at the end of a beach day.
Generally speaking, extreme eastern Bronx bears more of a resemblance to eastern Queens or Staten Island than how we stereotype the Bronx to be.
[and escape repeated DJ playings of "I Will Survive"]
Well considering you were at a 90th birthday party, I'd say that was a most appropriate choice of music :-)
"Generally speaking, extreme eastern Bronx bears more of a resemblance to eastern Queens or Staten Island than how we
stereotype the Bronx to be."
That is absolutely correct.
Pelham Bay Park, City Island and Orchard Beach are just a few of many things that makes the Bronx special.
Like I have mentioned in previous posts, the neighborhoods in these areas resemble Westchester or Queens. These neighborhoods include: Country Club, Pelham Bay, Throggs Neck and Morris Park. They are all very quiet and wonderful neighborhoods. The unfortunate part is that some parts not served well by the subway (or bus sometimes). Nevertheless, these areas and attractions debunk the negative rumors about the Bronx.
"Nevertheless, these areas and attractions debunk the negative rumors about the Bronx."
In order to get to live in this prosperous neighbourhood don't you have to go through the Southern part of the Bronx.The 5 and 6 lines run through some pretty derelict parts. I know that Morrison and Elder Aves. are tough drug territories and parts of Soundview Port Morris and Hunts Point are run down areas.
Not everything is like Eastchester, Co-op city or Island City.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
["Nevertheless, these areas and attractions debunk the negative rumors about the Bronx."
In order to get to live in this prosperous neighbourhood don't you have to go through the Southern part of the Bronx.The 5 and 6 lines run through some pretty derelict parts. I know that Morrison and Elder Aves. are tough drug territories and parts of Soundview Port Morris and Hunts Point are run down areas.]
Many people from the eastern edges of the Bronx commute to Manhattan via express bus rather than subway.
They still have to go through those neighborhoods on the Bruckner.
True, you have to pass through some "different" areas by train or bus to get to these areas.
But, that's how all of NYC is. To get to the upper East Side and Upper West Side, don't you have to pass through some poorer neighborhoods?
Brooklyn also. The yuppified areas like Park Slope and Propsect Park have a very fine that creates the border between what is high-rent and what is low-rent. Sometimes the difference is a block or two over.
Oops I meant a fine line
Yes you are right. I was just stating that it sounds like City Island is an Oasis of retired; social upper income earners.No other place on in North America do you go from A district of high income to the poorest of the poor.
Chicago west down Madison Ave. or the Green line with stops at Pulaski and Harlem might resemble this situation but is far from emulating it a in context of the income spectrum.
It's Madison STREET.
It is like that on the Garden City-Hempstead border. One block is fancy homes and tree lined streets, the next midscale housing and rentals.
Chicago has many of these amazingly distinct lines. 47th Street, separating Hyde Park from Kenwood, comes to mind. I think a lot of these lines are blurring now though. It will be interesting to see if the segregation in chicago is finally decreasing when the census comes out.
I was in Chicago two years ago. Took the loop which is a great way to see the downtown core and visit the city. I was warned not to venture down the red line through the Dan Ryan area which is South Side Chicago, so I stayed on the West side.
Mistake!!!! Tthe Green line took me through some of the most desolate parts of any urban landscapes I have ever seen. I've been through Detroit parts of Washington, South side Miami and of course NYC. Boarded up tenements, burnt out shells, burnt out cars left to rust away, vacant lots and the most impressive thing I've seen in human misery, are Housing projects along the subway line with the lower floors of the project burnt out with people living on the upper floors. That really left a mark on me.
That trip sure put things in perspective on how I have have it good and how we sometimes take things for granted.
Hmm, your advice was not good. The Dan Ryan trains are almost always busy. I rode them at all hours of the day and night (but not too late alone) and felt threatened exactly once, when I got on a car that was too empty... You don't want to randomly wander around the south side on foot, but the dan ryan trains are quite safe.
Chicago has that too in some places. The starkest example is on the Near North Side, where the Cabrini-Green housing projects are on the west side of Orleans Street and expensive Gold Coast lofts and townhomes are on the east side of Orleans. The funny thing is that the Brown/Purple L runs right next to Orleans (east side of the street) through that stretch, so there's literally a "wrong side of the tracks" situation.
Of course, Cabrini-Green isn't going to be around for much longer, and it will quickly become townhomes and neo-loft* buildings. Then the worst contrast will be on the South Side, where the improving Kenwood neighborhood is right next to the huge Stateway Gardens projects. As long as Stateway lasts, anyhow.
*Lofts, as we all know, are apartments carved out of old warehouses or factories. Neo-lofts are large buildings built as residences but made to appear like old industrial buildings. "Pseudo-lofts" is another potential name.
Part of the Robert Taylor Homes on the South side of Chicago have been demolished, now Cabrini Green.Now if they could only work on West side. A big gentrification wind sweeping north America. Look at SEBCO in the South Bronx. If it wasn't for Father Gigante this never would have happened. The Bronx is looking up just like parts of Brownsville and East New York .
Only one question. Where are all the people that used to live in these places living now?
At least here in Chicago, the Housing Authority is relocating the residents to "scattered-site" CHA buildings in the neighborhoods or to subsidized (Section 8) units in regular apartment buildings. They're not being thrown out onto the street, and will probably be living in better conditions than what prevails in the ill-maintained project buildings. You would hardly guess that, though, from the loud squawking of the CHA residents and their "activist" supporters.
I get a kick out of your comment regarding "never saw a transit bus go so fast".....I always got a lick out of how fast the drivers would push the buses going through Pelham Bay Park on the way to CI.
Now that I look back, that was NOTHING. I drive transit buses now myself, and we regularly are hitting up to 55 miles an hour around our system, and up to 65-70 ont he freeway portions of routes.
Nowadays I get more of a kick hearing other folks at SubTalks proclaiming that a bus they were on hit about 40 miles an hour. I wonder what they'd do if they came out here and rode our system.
Years ago (mid-1950's to be exact) when I lived off Fordham Road, our family would take the Bx12 all the way to the end of the route on City Island. The buses used to turn around on a counter-clockwise "loop" off to the right side of the end of City Islan Avenue. In the middle of the loop was a little fish bar/restaurant, somehow the name "Mrs. Lindstrom's" rings a bell. We used to go there and enjoy their clam chowder.
There was also a tour boat that left from the pier at the end of C.I. Ave. -- I don'tremember much about it except it was small, and the tour was narrated, and went pretty close to the Long Island side of the water to show everyone the King's Point Merchant Marine Academy.
As a former resident of City Island I can say great
place to live but horrible to travel from.The morning commutes were so bad I moved back to
Bensonhurst to deal with the Slow N train.
Is anybody else having trouble accessing Bus Talk? For the past couple days, every time I try to access it, I get a
"Inactive Timeout" message.
Any ideas?
Must be the rising gas prices. My advice: Take the subway. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
I don't think so. It happened to me several times yesterday on Subtalk.
Are they on the same server? Maybe it was just a busy day.
They ARE on the same server.
I haven't had any trouble at all getting to either one, from the west coast.
No problems here in Illinois.
I once E-mailed Dave P off-board and he said to clean out your caches and cookies. That should help
Cookies you shouldn't need to mess with but the cache is a good idea- you might have the "timed out" error message in your cache for the site...
-Dave
How would I go about doing that?
Depends on your browser but you should have an option under Edit/Preferences/Cacche or whatnot to clear it.
One of these matters is rail related so it qualifies. Beginners, a few years ago a grandson or nephew (?)of Moe of the 3 Stooges sued a restaurant in Cal. for having a likeness of the 3 Stooges on premises. Today I heard on the news that Yoko Ono is suing the Tokyo subway system for using a picture or image of John Lennon on its tickets. I think both cases are greed but that's my opinion... if I were either possible plaintiff I'd consider it an honor, but that's my opinion. Just think, any Beatles fans out there [not me, but] among the railfans... there's a collector's item to locate!
>>> I think both cases are greed but that's my opinion... if I were either possible plaintiff I'd consider it an honor <<<
Ed;
I'm surprised at this attitude from you since you are an author. The lawsuits are for the protection of intellectual property rights, which I would think you would support.
Let me give you an example. Suppose the Subway Sandwich shops decided to change their decor and used blown up pages of your book with both the text and pictures, as the wallpaper in all of their stores, and as a promotional gimmick gave away a copy (which they printed) of your book to the first three million customers after the redecoration. Lets say they did all this without asking your permission, or paying you any royalties.
Although you might feel flattered and consider it an honor that Subway liked your book so much, I'm willing to bet you would soon be looking for a first class lawyer to sue them for infringement on your copyright. Does the fact that you want a piece of the action make you greedy? I don't think so. You are entitled to compensation for the effort you put into writing your excellent book, and Subway cannot use it to further their business without your permission, for which you would want to be paid.
You might claim that there is a difference between a book that you put effort into and the simple likeness of a person. You have to consider that this is not the likeness of just any person, like a group of anonymous individuals in a street scene. The likenesses that are being used are of those of individuals who put in a lot of hard work to build a public persona and make their images mean something more than that of an anonymous person on the street. Just like a copyright, a person has the right to control the exploitation of his image for commercial purposes. When he dies, (again like a copyright) that right passes to his heirs.
The lawsuits that you cited are examples of the heirs protecting the right to use the person's likeness for commercial purposes. Both the California restaurant and the Tokyo subway system thought the images would enhance their products, or they would not have used them. Therefore the owners of the rights to the likenesses have a right to withhold permission to use the likeness, or obtain compensation for granting the right to use the likeness. That seems only fair to me.
Tom
Guess I'm not in the limelight these entertainers are in, or had been in. So just being one of the common folk I'll give you an honest answer.. I just plain wouldn't understand; but your reply and explanation of reasons therefor are appreciated. Thanks for the good thoughts and the explanation. It is an education. But of course I'd be irate if they copied it on their own and gave it away; don't suppose anyone wants to see my mug though. best wishes ed.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind if someone else made a profit by displaying your likeness without giving you any share in it. If you think that that's fair, you're certainly entitled to let them do so.
It seems, however, that enough people object to having other people profit from someone else's likeness that it is actionable in New York and, I guess, some other jurisdictions. There are a number of exceptions to this rule, which I think we can leave for another forum.
Do you think there should be an exception for famous people? For dead people?
Do you think there should be an exception for famous people? For dead people?
Actually, the law has been interpreted exactly that way. A celebrity is just that - a "celebrated", or public, person, who by virtue of the status which they have voluntarily sought has surrendered certain rights, including the right to their personal image. And the right to privacy can no longer be argued, even as a corollary, if the person is dead. On that basis, Ono's suit against the Tokyo transit system is groundless. OTOH, the character of the Three Stooges is an artistic creation, which is covered under copyright laws and (assuming the proper actions have been taken to preserve that copyright) a suit there would have a solid basis in law. A case in point: several years ago the USPS issued a Charlie Chaplin postage stamp. Had they wanted to depict him simply as himself, using his real name, they would have had no problems, because he was a celebrity. However, since they wanted to depict him in character as the Little Tramp - the way everyone recognizes him - they had to obtain permission and pay royalties, since the character of the Little Tramp is properly registered under the copyright and trademark laws.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A celebrity is just that - a "celebrated", or public, person, who by virtue of the status which they have voluntarily sought has surrendered certain rights, including the right to their personal image. And the right to privacy can no longer be argued, even as a corollary, if the person is dead. On that basis, Ono's suit against the Tokyo transit system [for putting John Lennon's picture on tickets] is groundless. OTOH, the character of the Three Stooges is an artistic creation, which is covered under copyright laws and (assuming the proper actions have been taken to preserve that copyright) a suit there would have a solid basis in law.]
Actually, I believe that unauthorized usage of a famous person's image for commercial purposes can give rise to civil damages. It doesn't matter whether the person is alive or not. If you look at advertisements showing a famous person, such as the Mercedes ad with Albert Einstein, you'll always see some fine print saying "By permission of the estate of so-and-so," or words to that effect. Obviously the advertisor had to pay for the rights to the person's image.
There might well be a case in that Einstein didn't seek celebrity. Lennon, as an entertainer, did. The key is "voluntarily sought".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> A celebrity is just that - a "celebrated", or public, person, who by virtue of the status which they have voluntarily sought has surrendered certain rights, including the right to their personal image <<<
Mouse;
You are confusing the right to privacy with the right to control the commercial exploitation of one's image. Although a photograph of a celebrity can be used in a news article, it cannot be used commercially.
Tom
For instance, I can publish a smiling picture of President Clinton (or an extremely unflattering one) that I take in a public place along with an article about him, or in a biography about him (the basis of the paparazzi business), but I cannot use that same picture on the outside of a pack of cigarette papers with the slogan "Great even if you don't inhale."
This is no different whether the celebrity is dead or alive. If this were not true, you would be seeing John Wayne, and Marilyn Monroe pictures on all sorts of commercial products.
With modern computer techniques, you do see images of dead celebrities in advertisements (including John Wayne and Fred Astaire), but you can be sure those images are not just taken free, someone has paid big bucks to use them.
Placing John Lennon's image on the Tokyo tickets is the commercial use of his likeness (to sell tickets), just as much as if it were put on a box of laundry detergent. It is not the same as publishing a picture of him in a newspaper or book.
From what I heard of this story, the image on the tickets is a painting done by an artist whose works are on display in a Tokyo museum. Other paintings have or will also be on tickets to promote this exhibit. The Tokyo subway got the images and permission from the museum which suposedly took care of all licensing etc.
-- Dave
The R17, R21, and R22 as I knew them had the same control systems.The General Electric version of the R22 had a distinguishing sound. You could tell a GE R22 was in a station without even seeing it. For extra points, does anybody know how the GE R22 sounded different from its like counterparts? If nobody knows I'll give the answer tomorrow! If I don't forget.
Just a guess, but was the R-22 wired such that the M-G set was
always running at high speed, even with the train idle?
As far as I can remember, they had a buzz.
Ah hah! you've got it. The GE versions of the R17-22 even when sitting in a station issued sounds, which picked up volume as the train started out. On the R17/21 it was a constant whirring; on the R22, it was a buzzing instead. Perhaps as Jeff H said it was the motor generator. I always thought it had something to do with cooling the resistors, as I remember these 3 types, GE version, had enclosed grids [I could be wrong]. The buzz it is. Good work.
I think in some GE type controllers, the MG sets had large blowers attached, which cooled the resistors that were buried inside the controller unit.
Does that explain the high-pitched whine you hear in The French Connection as the R-17 shuttle pulls out of Grand Central?
Guess I'd have to watch the movie again to see what you mean. All the SMEE's whined on accelration; but obviously you have spotted this as a different sound. For now, I don't know.
This wasn't motor noise, although even helical-cut bull and pinion gears do emit some. This was a high-pitched sound which increased in pitch as the train started up from a dead stop. I used to hear it on slant R-40s and R-42s. In the movie, it was the first train to leave the station, not the second in which Chernier outfoxed Gene Hackman and left him on the platform.
Well, I guess that's some help. The GE R17/21 made a whirring sound while standing still, which did increase when the train started to move; in the case of the R22 which was a very similar car, referring to my first brain teaser, had a buzzing sound which likewise increased. My thoughts were it was a blower for the enclosed grids (which I don't remember the R40/42 having): Jeff H said it may have been the motor generator, which all cars or one car of each married pair had. Except the R42 up no longer had M/G sets; they had solid state converters. It has been a long time but I don't remember the high-pitched whine on anything but the R17/21, possibly the R16 too. For now I guess the jury is still out unless someone verifies my thoughs or Jeff H';s thoughts.
The constant sound that increases when the train takes power
is the motor-generator, which on the R16-22 "flatbottom"
GE cars had a fan attached to cool the grids. Not a very smart
design. I don't remember the R22s buzzing vs whining, but if
it also increased on power-up, then it must have been an M-G sound.
Incidentally, there is an interlock which verifies that the M-G
has attained the higher speed before it allows the group switch
to take power. This results in a 1 or 2 second time delay.
Well, guess that settles it. In a small way I was right, but indeed the MG made the sounds; yes the R22 reacted the same way only it sounded a buzz rather than a whine; so that''s settled. I never did care for any of those in the GE versions.I remember the delay all too well; I preferred the Westinghouse that moved right on instead of whistling before they moved.So 30 years later I find out why the time delay.By the way when R16's started to be put in storage in l977 the GE's were the first to go.[thankfully]
The GE MCM groups must have seemed like a good idea at some point,
but they were a bad design. Using forced air to cool enclosed grids
was borrowed from the PCC car (both WH and GE packages used this
on the PCCs), however unlike the PCCs the waste heat was not
used to heat the car. Because of the steel dust environment blower
failures were frequent and with no airflow, things got mighty hot
inside those boxes, not only the grids but also the cams, relays,
interlocks, contactors, etc. Many, many groupbox fires later they
added the M-G blower interlock, which helped but did not totally
eliminate the problems.
07/14/2000
Yesterday I picked up the new revised HBLR timetable. It is effective May 22,2000 which features the new Bayonne Flyer Express Service. Hold on to those debut of service April 17,2000 timetables, they're collectors items.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, I am in Russia at the moment, and of course I had to take a look at the subway. In my opinion, it is one of the most efficient systems in the world. The trains run every 90 second during rush hours, with no delays. The signal system is old-fashioned block signals with trip arms. Power is supplied by bottom-contact third rail at 850VDC. Most of the tunnels are tubes, deep underground. The deepest station is 65meters(200 feet) below street level.
The trains consist of 6-8 60 foot cars, which slightly resemble the R10. The doors on the trains slam, hard!
Magnetic cards(like PATH QuickCards) are used for payment of fares. The turnstiles have no obstruction, but if you try to enter without paying, the turnstile blocks you with metal arms, and makes noise. Monthly passes are smart-card based.
The system carries 9million people daily, which is equal to the total population of the city. The system also has enough money to cover all operating expenses, even with some left over for expansion.
The MTA should get consultants from Moscow to tell them how to run a subway!
The subway in Moscow is, much as it always has been, the primary method of travel for nearly everyone in the city. This is not the case in any part of the United States and will likely never be.
Someday I'd like to have some coverage of the Moscow subway on this site (and see it myself). I hear they are pretty much against photography in the subway. I suppose if I spoke Russian or went with someone who did it might be easier to arrange permission. Anyone speak Russian here? ;-)
-Dave
ß ãîâîðþ ïî Ðóñêèé
Set encoding to Cyrillic (Windows) to read the above sentence.
(The MTA should get consultants from Moscow to tell them how to run a subway!)
The Moscow Subway was a national project -- money and forced labor from the whole country helped to build it. NYC has had an inverse relationship with the federal government, and it shows. The Moscow Subway was also built according to a single plan, and has no missing pieces. NYC has duplication in some places, and big holes in others. Finally, in Moscow the people who ride the trains probably have similar earnings to those who operate them, rather than lower earnings.
Our national project was the Interstate System.
It would be nice if the FEDs were to release $20 billion or so to "finish" the regional rail system, but I don't see it happening.
[The Moscow Subway was a national project -- money and forced labor from the whole country helped to build it. NYC has had an inverse relationship with the federal government, and it shows. The Moscow Subway was also built according to a single plan, and has no missing pieces. NYC has duplication in some places, and big holes in others. Finally, in Moscow the people who ride the trains probably have similar earnings to those who operate them, rather than lower earnings.
Our national project was the Interstate System.]
Being built as a national project didn't prevent the Interstate Highway System from having a few gaps ... as is all too apparent to anyone driving between NYC and Philadelphia :-)
Bonus question: what is the largest metropolitan area in the United States without an Interstate?
Honolulu?
What are I-H1, I-H2, I-H3 and I-H201.
Isn't the term Hawaiian Interstate an oxymoron??
>>> Isn't the term Hawaiian Interstate an oxymoron?? <<<
Jeff;
That's what I thought too when I first saw the interstate signs. But I guess that is the good old fashioned "pork barrel" politics. Congress is not going to leave out one state when spreading around the highway funds. Now if I can only get in on the contract to build the connecting link with the rest of the system.... :-)
Tom
Little known fact:
Alaska was given 4 interstates, however there are no stretches of road in Alaska long and continuous enough to justify Interstatification, so the numbers are not assigned, but they got funds under the old formula anyway.
Shouldn't it be called an intrastate??
What about all of those interstates that are in only one state? Like I-4, I-12, I-19 and I-87, among others?
[What about all of those interstates that are in only one state? Like I-4, I-12, I-19 and I-87, among others?]
Not to mention the infamous I-99.
Actually, the "Interstate" designation means that a highway is part of the Interstate Highway system and is constructed to certain standards, not that it actually crosses state lines.
Do you ever wonder how Bud Shuster, the father of I-99, lives with himself?
It's time the Bud Shuster Porkway/I-99 was renamed the Matlock Expressway/I-976.
Fresno, CA.
Big difference here is that Socialism is more present in Russia and other countries. All these other countries can get stuff done because with socialism NIMBY's aren't allowed to exist, and the government (the people) set the rates (costs) of construction, instead of private ventures.
It's pretty amazing that Hong Kong, Singapore, Russia, even China are building new rail lines at a MUCH higher rate than we are in the United States.
Take a look at how long it has taken to build the 63rd street connector, then think about how fast the IRT was built. Under the
current "Capitalism out of control" we have in NYC, property prices are inflated, so are contracting costs, which makes it very hard to expand and modernize the subway system.
Meanwhile in China (take the new Shanghai subway for example) government sets property rates and contracting costs, and NIMBY's are squashed before the first anti-subway sign goes up.
The only way we are going to see the subway of our dreams is the day we embrace a little socialism here in the states. We need to get back to the big projects era, by building public works like new rail lines and subways, power plants and transmission lines (so we don't have any more brownouts), and also making sure NIMBY's don't get in the way by strengthening the power imminent domain the government has.
The subway has expanded little since the 1960s, and we still have the same amount of power plants as we did back then. Yet NYC and it's surrounding suburbs have grown at a far faster rate than infrastructure. Something has got to give or we will all be sitting in traffic jams or on stuck subways because the power went out again. Perhaps it's a result of individual freedom taken too far.
I was criticized for calling him a commie in another message.
This post clearly proves his views on the greatest political failure of the last 200 years.
We also see how socialists contradict themselves. He mentions the IRT was a better run project than the 63rd Street Tunnel. This would be a great analogy... if only if was the Interborough Rapid Transit COMPANY that built the 63rd Street tunnel and the Metropolitan Transportation AUTHORITY that built the original subway.
Socialism has no place in the United States, it belongs in the land of the enslaved and the home of the cowardly. If NIMBYism is the price we have to pay for that, then NIMBY FOREVER!!!
I understand there is always some degree of socialism, but the less the better.
Magnetic cards (like PATH QuickCards) are used for payment of fares.
I take it they have done away with the tokens? They were still in use when my daughter was there in 1998.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've heard many people sing the praises of the Moscow Subway. My question is does it just cover Moscow, or does it hit the outlining areas, and how much of the system is elevated, if any?
There was a book, with pictures of the Moscow Metro. It is titled "Moscow Metro." That book was published in 1984-85, but using stations that existed as of 1979.
Apparently, it is all written in Russian, also has a lot of nice pictures, and the last copy in Boston where I live (or perhaps the entire USA) was seen about 1988-89. I was one of the last people to read this book before it suddenly disappeared. The map inside was accurate to 1985.
If anyone in the know in NYC or anywhere else in the USA can point me to another existing copy of "Moscow Metro," please LMK immediately!
Nick
Nick, this isn't the book you were looking for, but perhaps it might be of some interest: RASSKAZY STROITELEI METRO (Stories of the Subway Constructors. History of the Moscow subway) The link is to its listing in Bibliofind. I also checked ABE but they didn't have anything with Moscow Metro showing up in the title other than a novel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today my comute to work was extra slow. My F from 179th Street was stopped at Roosevelt Avenue for what seemed like a lifetime. Then the announcement came that the F would be making all local stops. After Queens Plaza, it became an N train.
I would have preferred if it had become a Broadway Q. Then it would have been express, but still stopped at my stop (Union Square.) And it could still have gone to Coney Island (via the Brighton Line), and turned back into an F even before it reached Coney Island (ie: W 8th St.)
Anyway, there you have it: An R46 on the N.
Andrew
I once had the sae thing happen to me....in 1986. The R46 F train switched to the local track south of Continental and it switched it's front rote sign from N to F. It was very confusing, with an N up front but side signs still displaying the F line.
I was railfanning (well, I was skippng school) at the time and rode it all the way to CI.
I'll bet the F train was thrilled it could become a Sea Beach train. Hey Bob, ever wonder why those other trains can become Sea Beaches, but none want anything to do with the Brighton LOCAL? Your turn Q.
Interesting how "Q" was the letter used for the powerful entity who put the captains and crew of various starships through great anxiety when they were just trying to get where they were going :·)
The N has no such reputation.
Thank You Henry. Maybe it was a broken down N and needed to get to CI Yards in a hurry so that is why it turned into a F, and got to CI 2 hours earlier then it would have been on the N
The peanut gallery has been heard from. Thanks. BTW, I called the Transit Shop at GCS. A guy named Dennis ordered the XLL, and told me to check in with him by phone to make sure he doesn't forget. It ought to be waiting when I get there.
Thank you Uncle Fred.
N can mean Nebraska, a perennial national football champion. It could mean Notre Dame, the most fabled university of them all. It could be Nicholas, my favorite name which means "Victory of the People. N could mean Navy, and Navy Day is October 27, my birthday. I like the letter N. It's cool.
N can be highly Negative or a No-No. Actually, the Sea Beach goes by the motto: better slow than Never.
N can also mean Nerd, Nebish, Never, Nudnick, or to nudge it along over 5 mph
ROTFLMAO
Just to keep things straight, if your train was re-routed over the N line, the train did not necome an 'N' Train. It mearly was a re-routed F via the N line. For it to become an 'N' train, it would have had to be given N train call letters. Since it didn't leave an 'N' line terminal, it kept its 'F' train call letters.
(picky, picky, picky)
I get the idea with all the train rerouting done in the last 15 years due to the Manhattan Bridge shutdown. I know the Q can't run on Broadway because the tracks on the south (N,Q) side of the Manhattan Bridge are closed, and it runs on 6th Ave to share the north side tracks with the B and D. And in the late eighties the north tracks were closed and it was the B and D that were running on Broadway (Sadly, the Broadway line went overnight from three express trains to none.)
OK. So is there a problem, once the construction is done, with resuming normal service on both the 6th Ave and Broadway lines? Another post (the one with the all-weather walkway idea on the Manhattan Bridge) seems to suggest that there is.
And if the Q can't take the Manhattan Bridge, couldn't it take the Broadway express anyway, via the Montague Street Tunnel? That was what the QT once did anyway, right?
Andrew
(OK. So is there a problem, once the construction is done, with resuming normal service on both the 6th Ave and Broadway
lines? )
Because the bridge has deteriorated, was poorly designed (trains on the outside), and carries a greater load than it is able to, it is constantly shaking apart, and being rebuilt. Engineers and consultants say they will "fix" the bridge for a few more millions in a few more years, but it never happens. The question is, will the bridge be fully open for trains, and for how long before the steel starts to crack and has to be replaced again? And will the City of New York be able to go on paying?
the real solution, long-term, in 20-50 years, is they are just going to have to tear down the whole bridge and rebuild it from the ground up. As for running trains in the Montague St. - the Mont is full at rush hour, as it already carries the M, N, & R.
Betcha if the Manhattan Bridge was in China it would have been fixed or replaced by now!
I would rather live with a broken bridge and lackluster subway services than in a land ruled by the iron fist of a tyrannical regime.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
If it was in China it wouldn't go between Bklyn and Manhattan, now would it?? And no NYC subway would go over it.
(If it was in China it wouldn't go between Bklyn and Manhattan, now would it?? And no NYC subway would go over it.)
If it was in China, they'd just run the trains on both sides at full speed until the bridge fell down. They'd lose a few thousand people, but they've got plenty more. Then they'd rebuild it just as flimsy.
I believe alot of new bridges in China do feauture rail transit service. Shanghai in particular comes to mind. I think they built something to the new Pudong area.
And as they say, “The more things change, the more they stay the same.” For I remember distinctly reading about how the Triplex (“D”) units, in the twilight of their years, were taken off the Brighton routes which had travelled over the Manhattan Bridge (due to their super-heavy weight) and put on the West End #3 / T line which, unless I’m mistaken, travelled on the Montague Street tunnel.
That was the information I gave in my book, it was a fact that that equipment swap was made and after the fact, when I was an employee, the old heads said that was the reason. A pen pal who started writing me after he bought the book said the weight wasn't the reason (??) It did seem weight of the D types was a logical reason though. As for the routes, it was #3 West End on D types as they had the old BMT designations. (Hence #4 Sea Beach Fred) In the letter designations the T service was the old West End Express... via Bridge and B'way Express. The West End "Short Line" to my memory was the TT, Chambers[Nassau], Montague Tunnel, Bay Parkway for terminal. So the D type were in that case assigned to #3 [old way] or translated to letter routes...TT
No, the West End express still operated via bridge, but since by the 1960s it had become essentially a rush hour and Saturday operation, the Triplexes were assigned there in keeping with the practice of trotting out the old equipment during rush hours. In other words, those behemoths still gave the Manhattan Bridge hernias, but did so less frequently. One can only imagine what the West End elevated structure had to endure. Oi!! Maybe that's why the Triplexes operated on the Brighton and Sea Beach lines for as long as they did, since both of those lines had open cut portions, plus an embankment in the case of the Brighton.
How about "simply" building a new four-track tunnel under the East River, and abandoning the bridge tracks forever? Wouldn't that be better in the long run, by avoiding constant (and expensive) bridge repairs?
(How about "simply" building a new four-track tunnel under the East River, and abandoning the bridge tracks forever? Wouldn't that be better in the long run, by avoiding constant (and expensive) bridge repairs?)
In the long run, yes, but no one is going to do something for Broolyn in the long run if it costs "more important" people something in the short run. So far, patch and pray has "worked" for Koch, Cuomo, Dinkins, Giuliani and Pataki. As long as you can get out of office before a disaster, or can blame someone else (the state says it is a City bridge and the City should fix it, the City says the subway in an MTA aka state responsibility), there is no political reason to do anything. Not even build the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, as MTA planners wanted.
The QT was the old Broadway-Brighton local via tunnel. It ran via the Montague St. tunnel all right, but made all local stops.
The most recent issue of MTH catolog 2000 hadsome intersting Railking Heavey Weights with Santa Fe' in an olive drab with black lettering.
I beleive these will make an excellant trailer for the Santa Fe doodlebug. I'd like some pros and cons. No hookers or jailbirds.
avid
In a previous post we heard our exaulted leader, Dave, lamenting about how raising funds for Subtalk/Nycsubway.org was extremely difficult. Ads are out of the quesdtion and so is a membership fee, but what about using the PBS Method TM. This means selling items at inflated prices. Those who really care about making Nycsubway.org better won't mind ponying up the extra dough. Personally I think that NYCSY.org has needed a gift shoppe type thing some time and I would pay upwards of 25$ for a T-shirt with David Cole's "Sigma Train" logo. Either using stock logos or images/slogans thought up by the subtalkers I think a subtalk giftshoppe (where all proceeded go to help improve nycsubway.org) could prove quite sucessful. The shoppe could sell T-shirts, mugs ("Danger 600 volts"), monopoly sets, bumber stickers ("my other car is a Redbird") or even hats. After all if the LA County Coroner Dept. gan have a gift shoppe why can't nycsubway.org.
Subtalk: Ask about our Redbirds Todtbag.
There already is a shop.
If you purchase something from Amazon.com by clicking on the link next to the item in the bibliography, Dave gets a commission.
Doh, I knew I should have checked. But does it have novelty items designed by SubTalkers?
Fur covered woodland creatures, trivets, dried meat products, recipe books foe exotic South American dishes and a list of gormet food shops to to purchase the ingrediants.
Use a lot of seasoning!
avid
P.S. or chech with the Subtalk Hunters association for their "Meals Ready To Eat" They are carried at select "Newstands" or can be bartered for in unused tunnels and stations. If you like curry.
Wait a minute. I don't see any nycsubway.org giftshoppe.
It's spelled GIFTSHOP.
If you want to spell it like a Canadian, then use the vastly superior Metric system, like a Canadian.
wait! another metric fan on Subtalk! and I thought I was the only one!
Abe, a.k.a the tall guy (203cm)
Its a BRITISH spelling and they are bettre, just like the BRITISH system of measurement.
Englande: They also spell colour with a 'U'.
Then why has Britain mostly abandoned their "superior" system for metric?
BTW, Mr. British man, how many fluid ounces are in a pint?
16
If you were really such a proponent of the BRITISH system, then why don't you recognize the BRITISH pint?
Cause I like the number 2. (4 is 2+2, 2^2 and 2*2 so I really like 4 and 16 is 4*4 or 4^2 so 16 is one of those magic numbers)
20 is 2*2*5. It also contains a 2.
I appreciate your interest but I'm not interested in running a gift shop and I'm not asking anyone to donate money to keep the site alive. Even if I was interested, I simply do not have the time to undertake these things.
There's room in the world for more than one web site you know. If you want to get into the subway merchandise distribution business and set up a web site I'll be the first to link to you...
-Dave
Dave we love you t-h-i-s much.
Mr t__:^)
so Dave & Dave... if Dave P doesn't have the time, then maybe Dave C could run the gift shop and stuff on a seperate server, and have it still be a part of nycsubway.org - same site design and everything, so that no one would know that it wasn't on the same server - it'd be an official section of the site, just not run by Pirmann... and so perhaps 50% of the profits to nycsubway.org and 50% to David Cole himself. And yes, I'd pay 20-25 dollars for a T-shirt with the IX Broadway/South Ferry Logo
I think we should lobby the TA to change over to Greek letters and roman numerals. At least in a few places as like a publicty stunt.
hmmm perhaps all of the S's to entice more people to ride underutilized lines such as the franklin shuttle or the times square-GC
[After all if the LA County Coroner Dept. can have a gift shoppe why can't nycsubway.org.]
Now *that* must be an interesting catalog!!
you can get toetags and bodybags. there is a link off the Usless Pages (www.go2net.com/useless)
"After all if the LA County Coroner Dept. gan have a gift shoppe why can't nycsubway.org."
"Subtalk: Ask about our Redbirds Todtbag."
No, unless my German is completely off, it's the *coroner* that would be selling todt bags!
Yeah, someone got it!!!!
Jersey Mike: Look out for my hidden, historical humour.
[Ask about our Redbirds Todtbag]
[Yeah, someone got it!!!!]
I got it, too, but I thought it was an interesting coincidence rather than a purposeful pun, since your posts are usually replete with typos, misspellings, trnc8ted spellings, semi- and pseudo-European spellings, &c. Some of your posts demonstrate that you're a serious, knowledgeable railfan, while others (like the engineer vs. motorman) indicate that you're a dorque.
Respectfully,
Bob
Hey, I try to post 3 new strings a day. Sometimes I run a little short on content.
>>> I try to post 3 new strings a day <<<
Mike;
Why?? Wouldn't it be better to post only when you have something interesting to contribute?
Tom
> Wouldn't it be better to post only when you have something interesting to contribute?
Motto!
The more I post the greater the chance it will be interesting.
Jersey Mike: He's able to do it through volume.
Guess again. You're cluttering up the message board with mindless drivel.
The other 15% is OK.
Hear, hear. The percentage of useful posts tends to go down as the volume goes up. Watch how fast every subject on this Board, no matter how on-topic it may be at the outset, turns to food, baseball, 1940s comedy teams, etc. We don't need subjects that start out without any transit-related content, and we don't need subjects that by their nature can't stay on-topic very long.
David
>>> The more I post the greater the chance it will be interesting <<<
Mike;
You truly have the mind set of a tagger. I think your approach of substituting quantity for quality in your posts is the electronic equivalent of "tagging" the bulletin board. You are just interested in seeing your name in the message index rather than bringing something of substance to the board.
Since everyone who reads your posts must invest the time necessary to download the post, and read it, it is extremely inconsiderate of you to post things which you do not think will be interesting just to meet some self imposed goal of making multiple posts. Perhaps your time has no value to you, but most of us realize there are a limited number of hours in a day, and a limited number of days in a lifetime. We do not want to waste time.
Please do not think I am in favor of censorship, or think I can decide what is interesting. But you should at least have consideration of the others when you post to the board, and only post what you think is interesting.
Tom
Why are ads out. Ad networks such as 24/7 media have subnetworks for small sites. 24/7 media has a product called content zone for sites such as nycsubway.org. It helps small content sites make there sites better as well as generate revenue from banner ads. It also offers a service where you can share some of your original content with other web sites.
> Why are ads out
Why? Because I like the fact that there are still some sites (people) who aren't just in it for the money. *I simply do not want them here.*
Can you honestly tell me that you also do not appreciate the fact that sometimes you go to a site and aren't bombarded with advertising??
-Dave
I certainly appreciate it, Dave. Thanks for keeping it that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yes i agree thank you Dave for not having banner ads all over the place, they drive me NUTS! i still think you should have Dave Cole run a gift shop with you and him splitting the profits though.....
Or I could just sell stuff on my own website and keep 100% of the profits. :-)
Regardless, I got out of the retail business around the time I graduated from high school and I plan to stay out, although I may actually end up offering some Chicago-themed desktop wallpapers as "shareware" on my website soon, including some transit-related stuff... Stay tuned.
Anyway, it looks like I may end up at Seashore most weekends learning how to operate trolleys and restore subway cars thanks to Todd Glickman and Tim Speer. (Between the two of them, I don't think I have much of a choice now!) :-)
Between Seashore, school, work, and keeping up with my own websites, it's rather doubtful that I'll have time to take on much of anything else. Glad you like my banners, though.
-- David
Boston, MA
[Anyway, it looks like I may end up at Seashore most weekends learning how to operate trolleys and restore subway cars thanks to Todd Glickman and Tim Speer. (Between the two of them, I don't think I have much of a choice now!) :-)
Todd is a good salesman and the great big smile on your face as you drove the Boston El car down the line told me that you were hooked.
Seashore has some realy nice stuff. If you're able to work with Bill on the heavy stuff maybe they'll come out more often ... you know what they saw about all work and no play !
Mr t__:^)
Heck with the tote bag, SELL THE REDBIRDS ($ 10,000.00 ea, FOB Scraporano) >:~>
that would be too cool. not only would some be restored and kept at museums, but people might actually USE them. The ta would be too nice to fo that though, and they're not that nice. oh well. i'd buy two, put them on new rails, gut the interiors, and live inside them. turn them into a house!
As a dentist is not on the same level as a doctor is a Train Operator is not quite up there with Engineer I was wondering how a Subfan compares with a Railfan? Which needs to know more and which is more obsessive? Does a subfan graduate to railfan or does a railfan need to study for a subfan qualifacation? I consider myself a railfan with a primary interest in FRA railroads, majouring in the PRR, signals and electrifacation with a secondary interest in east coast transit and Europian railraods and no interest west of the Mississippi or Light Rail. So what do all of you consider yourselves, railfans or subfans?
Railfans: Accept no imatations.
Eye think most of us are one with a little bit of the other.
Jersey Mike, Being a railfan can you ID one geep from another, i.e GP-38 vs. GP-40 vs. a SD-40 vs. a F40, well the last one is pritty easy. Subfans need the same ability to tell a R-62 from a 62A or a Lo-V from a Hi-V from a Q type. I've gotten better at this, but a GP-38 vs. a GP-40 is hard for me, at least harder then a FL9 vs. a PA.
Then there's guys like heypaul who knows that covered wagons are different from Geeps but that's it, and if a John Deer wasn't green he would have a big problem. Now a R-9 Controller from BU one is another matter, and telling the difference between all those wonderful noises is something he can do, can you ?
Mr t__:^)
Then there's guys like heypaul who knows that covered wagons are different from Geeps but that's it, and if a John Deere wasn't green he would have a big problem.
I can identify with that too. There's Redbirds, Hippos, cars with corrougated sides and railfan windows, slant R-40s, and R-142s, plus some miscellaneous other ones. Beyond that I'm lost, but that's OK, even that level of distinction is more than I need to know. I simply enjoy them all (OK, maybe not the Hippos, but...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My feelings are that those who only railfan the "big railroads", likewise employees of same vs. transit employees too often get elitist and snub the transit fans/ personnel. There's something to be said plus and minus for both sides. I've railfanned transit and common carriers; I've been a motorman and I've been an engineer; basically my first love is first generation electric rail transit but have many big likings on the big roads as well. Where to draw the line? Trolleys and light rail? There are some light rail systems with bigger trains let's say than a branch line RDC; But hard to relate to trolleys as a railroad even though some now run on ex-freight lines. Muaybe a 4 -5 car subway train isn't "railroad' to some, but it's such a complex system I'd give it that honor. Whatever you're persuasion you're a RAILFAN. Might be a subfan too, or Pennsy fan, or BNSF fan etc.
My feelings are the same. Look at the coverage the mainstream hobby magazines gives to the traction interest. Trains Magazine does not follow subway/trolley and covers certain ICC-FRA traction properties (it nixes PATH/SIRTOA, but will cover South Shore). Railfan magazine has a traction column, and the old Railroad magazine will print almost anything, including subways, just to fill spaces. BTW, it was Railroad magazine that got me interested in other places beyond the Hudson River (BART via the late Harre Demro).
I'm a sub/bus (transit) fan first and railfan second.
>>>I'm a sub/bus (transit) fan first and railfan second
I suscribe to that description too. With an emphasis on NYC metro area.
Peace,
ANDEE
uh...Hippo??
uh...Hippo??
R-68
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
the 38/40 question is given away by the relitive sizes of the fuel tank and the air resevior. On a 38 they are about the same legnth and on the 40 the tank is much longer than the air resevior.
Easy. Since I never met a train I didn't like, I'm a railfan.
--Mark
> As a dentist is not on the same level as a doctor
Well I wouldn't want my general practice doctor filling a cavity or doing a root canal in MY mouth...
-Dave
'flanged steel wheel on a steel rail' It is said that at age less than 2 the parents used top take me to the Alexandria Va train station on especially hot days (no A/C in that apt in 1944-8) apparently watching trains soothed me. as to steam v. diesel v. electric--sort of like Bill Monroe v. GD v. Coltrane. Edna St. Vincent Millay said it all "and there isn't a train I wouldn't take no matter where its going" (apologies if quote is inaccurate)
On a similar vein, when I was teething, my father would drive me to the Grand Trunk Western tracks, about a mile or so from where we lived in South Bend, even in the middle of the night, if I was experiencing discomfort. All it took was one freight train to pacify me. At least that's what my folks tell me.
Train Operator not on the same level as train engineer??? A TO is responsible for more lives in one day, than most Slamtrak engineers 'carry' in half a year!!! Thats like saying a NYC Bus operator is less than a Greyhound driver....
Ever since the day when a potential differance was applied to a rail and then used to power a train the electric MU operator has been viewed as inferrior (in the JV sence of the word) to full blown locomotive engineers. Why do you think they are called motormen and not engineers. On railraods MU operators were always the most junoir positions and paid way less. Why do you think transit operators are babied with ATO, trip arms and timed signals. Engineers are trusted to obey all signs and signals on their honor. Engineers have to pass tests thought up by the federal government on rules drafted by the Federal Government. Can you think of something that is more difficult? the TA dosen't even trust motormen to pay attemntion and therefore require a deadman handle. number of lives responsible for has nothing to do with it. MU and transit motormen are the JV team of railraoders. I'm not saying that they do not have varsity skills, the job is just easier.
The TA dosen't even trust motormen to pay attention and therefore requires a deadman handle.
And you think that Amtrak and the freight railroads don't????
MU and transit motormen are the JV team of railroaders. I'm not saying that they do not have varsity skills, the job is just easier.
You have a lot to learn.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The closest thing they have to a deadman is a cab signal alerter that sounds when the cab signal changes and Amtrak trains have a thinggie that tripps if the engineer like dosen't do anything w/ the controls for a few minutes, but as far as I am aware full size locomotives do not have a constant pressure deadman handle. If anything the 2 person crew eliminates the need 4 this.
Locomotives did have a deadman pedal but it was eventually removed since everyone blocked it down one way or another. Also there were 2 crew persons in the cab. Now there are alertors and in the case of Amtrak even more sophisticated alerting devices, Believe me, on many a midnight shift I appreciated that alertor. I've been a motorman [NYCT] and engineer [Montana Rail Link] and will give plusses and minuses to either operation skill wise. The easiest job I ever had was engr.-thru freight. NOW I admit it took a lot more skill to control and stop a heavy frieght over an MU, but how often did you stop. How many interlockings with junctions or diverging routes did you go thru in a shift. Worst thing was being on call and seeing too many sunrises. The most tedious job I had was running a switch engine in a busy yard, but I did it for a normal lifestyle. The motorman's job is somewhere in between but still tedious after a while. A motorman who takes his job seriously can be just as skilled. NOW the big dividing line: an engineer on an FRA RR has a lot more intensive training and exams, licensing and recertification [only in the last 10 or so years] every 3 years , rules exams in between. I think transit authorities should have at least a rules exam every two years or less. IMHO. And required scores for promotion should be higher than 70%... it is tough I know but an engineer must rate 90%, at least they did on MRL.
I'm a SubFan; I'm not as fascinated by long-haul RRs as I am by subways and trolleys.
wayne
I'm still a railfan, I suppose, but after 35 years in various streetcar operating venues, I have a dim view of the "Foamite" railfan. You know who I mean - the multiple camera-toting, gets things that he shouldn't, goes where he shouldn't, gives everybody a bad name type.
I've been to quite a lot of places, both transit/streetcar and railroad, and everybody I talk to has the same point of view: the h*** with them. If you are interested, have a professional demeanor, and don't interfere, you get to go places and do things that "Foamite" types never do.
Get involved in the industry, either paid or unpaid professional, and you develop this mindset. Foamites, stay away! Anybody agree?
>>>Foamites, stay away! Anybody agree? <<<
Completly! However foamers/foamites are generally too stupid to know who they are and they give all a bad name.
Peace,
ANDEE
Okay, here's my story...
I've been fascinated by trains for about as long as I can remember. Up until high school my only exposure to trains was watching the long-haul frieght trains. By my junior year of high school I was living in Florida and I had my drivers license. Often times my best friend and would go out driving at night, and whenever crossing the tracks near US 1, sometimes we'd see the light of an oncoming train in the distance and we'd wait there at the crossing for it to come through. Our favorite grade crossing was in a rather rural area, and when the trains came through they were usually going at top speed. Very cool!
My first ride on a subway was during a visit to Atlanta during my sophomore year of high school. My church youth group was in Atlanta for a weekend trip to Six Flags, and the next day we grabbed lunch at The Varsity, a huge hot dog place near the North Avenue MARTA stop. Like a natural-born railfan, I snuck away from the group and grabbed the MARTA train down to Peachtree Center so I could marvel at the huge atrium lobby of the Mariott Marquis hotel. After a quick ride in the glass elevators to the top of the atrium, I scurried back to the MARTA station and caught the next train back to the group. I found a rather upset pastor waiting for me, but it was too late: I was hooked on subways.
A couple years later when I moved to the Chicago area, I knew I had found the Promised Land for railfans, and I have since ridden significant portions of the NYC subway system and almost all of the Boston T.
While nothing gives me goosebumps like a massive frieght train roaring past at 80 MPH, my main interest is in electric passenger trains. Heavy-rail subways are my main passion, but I'm also interested in commuter rail, high-speed passenger rail (Acela, TGV), and light rail to a lesser extent.
I don't know all the technical in's and out's regarding field shunting, regenerative braking or signalling systems, but as an architect with a strong visual sense, I'm very interested in the physical designs of trains and their aesthetic appearance, as well as the architecture of transportation facilities such as rail stations and airports. I also have a strong interest in how transit systems (or lack thereof) impact the physical design and quality of life in our cities.
I guess you could sum it up by saying that I have passions for trains, architecture and cities. I have an especially strong passion for the connections between the three.
-- David
Boston, MA
I was wondering how the train radios work in the tunnles or the deep bore river tubes. I can pick up PATCO train transmissions all the way from 15/16th and you guys always talk about trains calling the control centre. I'm guessing that there is an extensive network of radio repeters.
Bob? Are you there? Bob? Bob? Are you there? Bob?
I once again renew my protest about the Philly trip occuring on Sunday. Most regional rail lines run w/ 2 hour headways, PTACO runs every 20 min and I think the Ridge Line is closed.
My ideal plan for the gala is the New York contingent catches an early NJT train to Trenton and then a SEPTA train into the Pennsylvania Railraod Suburban Station. There they will meat with the Philly chapter of Subtalk. We then buy SEPTA day passes and hop onto the MLF taking it out the 69th St. Depending on the time we can eat lunch there (I know a great Pizza place) and then embark on one of 4 options.
1) Route 102 trolley to Clifton where we catch an inbound R3
2) Route 100 to Haverford where we catch an inbound R5
3) Route 100/101/102 out a bit and then back to 69th (for lunch)
4) Railfan at 69th and then just take the MFL back into Centre City
Whever we do we will end up back in Centre City. From there we get on the Broad St. Line and possibly after going all the way to fern rock we cna catch a ridge line train to 8th and Market to transfer to PATCO (If ridge line is closed we can go down to Locust). NOw again we have 3 options.
1) Buy 85 cent ticket and take PATCO out to Lindenwold and back to 15/16
2) Buy 1.85 ticket and go out to Lindenwold and then catch an Inbound NJT AC line train
3) Go to Lindenwold, catch outbound train to Atlantic City, gamble, catch casino bus back to NYC.
Note: If anyone wants to go the extra mile I can provide transportation for a few people for a trip to Winslow Jct. home of all types of 50's motive power. If you are interested bring a duffle bag to store the "goodies" you will find.
However that turns out we well end up baque in Centre City, maybe in time for a quick bite at the gallery Mall Food Court b4 you rush off to catch the R7 at Market East station.
Philly Trips: They always look good on paper.
I think we're pretty much locked into Mark W.'s Saturday Coney Island Trip. It's probably too late to change it.
As it is, the Philly trip was a suggestion that seemed good at the time. Unfortunately, "real world" pressures on my time mean that I haven't had a chance to plan anything (thanks for your input though, BTW) and probably wouldn't make the trip to Philly myself.
-Dave
Philly Trips: They always look good on paper.
I had one all planned out in June of 97. The strike kinda killed it for me, though I finally got to ride one of those GOH'ed Silverliner(?)s from 30st to Suburban station, walked to Market East and rode Patco out to some stop (no idea where) and back, realized I couldn't exit on the same ticket so went to City Hall over that bridge, exited, bought another ticket and went back. On the way home took one of those ex-PRR electrics on the R-7.
I'm posting this to both BusTalk and SubTalk because of the possible crossover appeal.
When you buy a Newark Subway ticket, you can buy a ticket with transfer which adds the 45 cents necessary to transfer. Does it give you a separate ticket or is it combined in one, if separate, does the transfer have to be stamped?
Since the subway is one zoned, continuing trips mean nothing when transfering to it, but how do you get a ticket after having paid the 45 cent fee on the bus and getting a transfer ticket. Do you have to stamp the transfer in the validator?
When you purchase a transfer or continuing trip ticket from the machine, the word "transfer" or "continuing" is printed on it. It is used just like a regular ticket; stamp it and hold on to it and give it to the bus driver when you connect with your bus.
When you purchase a transfer or CCT on the bus, just keep it with you when you ride the subway. Don't try to stamp it - it won't work!
AP Tuesday July 13, 2000
In an anouncement at City Hall today, the mayor, in conjunction with the Department of Paranoia, called for stronger token booth to project against terrorist attack and to generally reduce crime.
"The Subways are the lifeblood of this city. If shmething were to happen to them this city would grind to a halt. Currently the system is both attractive and vunerable to attack. We need to act switfly and I am confident that my new plan will stop subway crime before it happens, at the faregate."
The mayor is calling for token booths that are bullet proof, bomb proof and battering ram resistant. Furthermore the mayor wants each booth to be equipped with a nuclear/chemical/biological overpressure filtration system, a 4 week supply of food and water and a small arms cabnet.
"The bombs may be falling, but you can rest assured that the NYC Subway will still be operating. But don't forget that just because the world is ending you will not have an excuse to avoid paying your fare."
Future phazes of the "Stratiegic Token Booth" project include new faregates what scan patrons for both weapons and outstanding warrents and special armoured morotman compartments with a life support system that can keep a T/O alive and operating for up to 2 weeks. When asked about the Conductor the mayor said that incase of attack the subway would be converting to OPTO and regarding funding the mayor said that future service extentions are permintly "on hold".
"It makes no sence to expand if you can't defend what you've got."
Some experts expressed worry that token agents would no longer be available to help the public to which the mayor replied, "Well if you live in the City you should know where you are going and if you are not a resident your tour guide should be more than able to provide assistance." The mayor went on to indicate that a new closed circut TV system, coupled with a hi-tech PA system will allow token agents to publicly mock anybody seen to be having trouble.
When asked if this was not about terrorists, but in actuality a prelude to a fare hike and the mobs of angry, pitch fork wielding citizens that would come with it, the Mayor had no comment. When asked how this new token booths would deal with the railfan problem currently sweeping the city the Mayor replied, "Token Agents in the new booths will have a clear shot of the entire platform. They will be authorized to take approiate action."
Jersey Mike: He's funny, but not HA HA funny.
Seriously, it's not a bad idea to have "stronger" token booths.
Back in the early 90's, a token booth clerk died in a fire that consumed the Intervale Ave station on the #2,5 line.
Back in '95 there were copy cat incidents of the scene from MONEY TRAIN where people (if you want to consider them human) were trying to spray lighter fluid into the token booths and then lighting them on fire.
One wonders if a token booth has ever been held up, and if they are in fact bullet proof.
Nice piece. Which city is this from....Philly?
Will it can be from any city, but the Department of Paranoia gives it away as good ole NYC.
When I parked at 34th Street to ride the HBLR, I selected ticket with receipt from the machine, which gave me a receipt bigger than the usual NJT machine receipt. I put it in the windshield thinking that's the procedure, but is it really? If I told the machine I didn't want a receipt, would it give me one, or just a smaller parking ticket? Do the police keep track of who paid by using a computer and checking spot #s or do they check for the receipts in the windshields?
I don't know the answer to yours, but maybe you know the answer to one of mine: what is the fare on the NJT shuttle bus that runs from the 34th Street station of the HBLR?
$1.00 except for passengers with monthly HBLR or bus passes. They ride for free.
Unless he was talking about the shuttle to the lot on NJ-169, that's free.
This is pure guesswork on my part, since I've never used a HBLR parking lot. Your description of the procedure you followed leads me to believe you had to input into the machine your parking space number. If that's the case, and receipts are optional and don't say to place on the windshield, then the logical conclusion is that the police get a feedback from the ticket machines as to which parking spaces have been paid for. This would be the opposite of the parking system at the commuter garage near the #7 line at Main Street in Flushing, where you don't input any parking space number, automatically get a receipt, and it says it must be displayed on your dashboard.
Well, the system would have to have detectors at the spots to detect when you get out, otherwise someone can get lucky and freeload your spot.
I assume you've probably used an NJT ticket machine (being from NJ and all) and one of the options is cash with receipt. They probably put it there anyway even though the receipt isn't optional.
I would try again, except that my little journey cost me an arm and a leg ($6 Verrazano Bridge, $5 HBLR roundtrip and parking, $2 PATH roundtrip and $3.60 Bayonne Bridge).
[I assume you've probably used an NJT ticket machine (being from NJ and all) and one of the options is cash with receipt. They probably put it there anyway even though the receipt isn't optional.]
Recollecting the last few times I used ticket machines (either Newark subway, HBLR or PA Bus Term.), I think you get only the ticket if you do NOT opt to also get a receipt. If you opt for the receipt, you get both a ticket and a receipt.
Some people don't realize that the receipt comes about 30 seconds after the ticket. Even if they opt for ticket plus receipt, they get the ticket and then walk away from the machine, only to have the receipt come down after they are gone. I think the ticket is the only thing of value. The receipt is for your own records, although I guess it can serve as backup evidence of what you paid.
By popular demand I've set up some access to the Subtalk Archives. It's only browsable, not searchable (for now anyway).
Visit:
http://astroland.nycsubway.org:8080/cgi-bin/archive.cgi
Be sure to bookmark it - the 8080 in the URL is critcally important otherwise you won't find it.
-Dave
Now I can produce a list of every single handle and variation thereof that I used.
Does it actually go back to the very beginning of the WebBBS version of SubTalk, or does it skip messages 1-999?
What happened to the old WWWBoard version? I remember it was archived to a proprietary NNTP server, since I wasn't with SubTalk at exactly the time of the transition, were the WWWBoard messages still available in archive as the WebBBS version was phased in?
When you purged BusTalk, did you delete all of those messages or did you keep them somewhere?
Do you keep messages somewhere when you delete them otherwise?
Am I being too nosy?
Am I asking to many questions?
Will I ever stop asking questions?
Does the SubTalk board have a limit at 2,147,483,647 messages?
> Does it actually go back to the very beginning of the WebBBS version
> of SubTalk, or does it skip messages 1-999?
That's webboard that came first, and I don't remember how many messages were on the old board -- but they are not in the archives as of now.
There's also a few large gaps in the archive from being careless and losing some groups of messages.
> What happened to the old WWWBoard version? I remember it was
> archived to a proprietary NNTP server,
Proprietary isn't really the word since NNTP is pretty standard. I still have them they just aren't in a format compatible with WebBBS.
> When you purged BusTalk, did you delete all of those messages or did
> you keep them somewhere?
Hmm. Good question, I'll have to look around.
> Do you keep messages somewhere when you delete them otherwise?
Sometimes. But they're not going back in the archives.
-Dave
> There's also a few large gaps in the archive from being careless and
> losing some groups of messages.
Actually I found the missing gap, 48000-70120, and now, not counting deleted messages, the Archives have messages 1 thru 130999.
And, I found all the Bustalk messages too. I'll set up an archives for those too.
What I didn't find was the original webboard messages. I'm not sure I still have them after all.
-Dave
Neat -- thanks! One of my favorite threads started one week into the new system.
After three weeks of vacation in Taipei, I was back to Maryland at midnight on Thursday. I bring a lot of Taipei's MRT brochures, including some farecards and the system map. The system map is written by both Chinese and English. It looks a lot like MTA's the Map with street names on the map, but the street names are written only in Chinese.
More on my impressions on Taipei's subway system.
The subway system is very clean, not only because it is only four years old, but Taipei Rapid Transit Corporation (TRTC) prohibits smoking, eating, and chewing gums in the system. Every rapid transit station has restrooms so that it is very convenient for passengers.
In each station, there are signs on the platform to show door locations when a train stops at a station. I believe there are similar signs in the Grand Central station of numbers 4, 5, and 6. The signs makes passengers easier to know where to board a train. Moreover, because the island platforms in Taipei are much wider than those in NYC, Bostion, Philly, or Washington, DC, passengers can line up before the door location signs to wait for a train.
On the escalators, some passengers still don't stand at the right side. In big cities like NYC or Washington, DC, it is a common sense to stand at the right side of an escalator.
Taipei Railway station is a major transfer point of the system. During rush hours, it really reminds me of the commuters in and out of PATH's World Trade Center station.
I still favor NYC subway, but I am very impressed with Taipei's subway system. It really change the habits of Taipei's citizens. As I told my friends in Taipei, they should be proud of this system.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa,
1) Does Taipei's subway run 24 hours?
2) Are vandals and violators of the no smoking/eating/gum-chewing rules more seriously punished if caught than they would be in the states? In other words, are the low-lifes sufficiently deterred from defacing property by fear of retribution?
3) I've noticed not everyone in New York has common sense to not stand on the left side of the escalator, which can be infuriating at times!
BTW, Welcome back!
Pete
Hi, Pete,
1) Taipei's subway runs from 6AM to 11PM every day.
2) The penalty for smoking/eating/gum-chew is around 50 US Dollars. Taipei hasn't had the problem of vandalism. According to the Mass Transit law, vandals are also penalized for around 50 dollars.
3) When I was riding subway in Taipei, when someone was standing on the left side of the escalator, like in NYC, I always shout, "Excuse me!" in Chinese.
Chaohwa
3) I've noticed not everyone in New York has common sense to not stand on the left side of the escalator, which can be infuriating at times!
On the Lexington Ave (E/F) escalator once I saw a rather large, strong person walking down the escalator shouting "excuse me" and shoving anyone on the left side to the right if they didn't move fast enough.
Another time, someone in a business suit yelled loudly "I'm gonna f***ing miss my Metro North train and wait another G**damned hour because this a$$hole doesn't know 'standers on the right, walkers on the left'". Everyone on both escalators who was standing on the wrong side quickly shifted over.
[On the Lexington Ave (E/F) escalator once I saw a rather large, strong person walking down the escalator shouting "excuse
me" and shoving anyone on the left side to the right if they didn't move fast enough. ]
Ahhh... the notoriously heinous Lex E/F escalator... Tomorrow morning, I hope I'm right behind this guy! Of course, if all it takes is a loud mouth and a business suit, I might not need him.
Try the following link from Real Player and have tongue firmly in cheek:
http://take5.real.com/earl/?issue_uid=1459&issue_page_uid=3612&story_uid=6585&provider_uid=9049
I just got back from the movies and one of the previews show before the main attraction was an upcoming movie called "The Yards".
The first scene in the preview appears to be shot from the back of a #6 train leaving the tunnel next to Bruckner Blvd. Other scenes in the preview showed interiors of NYCTA shops with R32's, R38's, and all had some sort of logo on the left front of the cars (the scenes went so quick I couldn't tell, but the logo did NOT look real -- maybe it was the "New York RTA" logos that were on one of the red R30's out here in Los Angeles).
The movie is a crime/suspense drama shot in the "vast subway yards of New York City" according to IMDB info.
You might want to check up on the details at the Internet Movie DataBase:
http://www.imdb.com/
Just type in "The Yards" in the search box.
To misquote Homer Simpson, I have a feeling this movie is going to be the suckiest bunch of suckage that ever sucked... but, on the other hand, they'll get my $8... :)
-Dave
It doesn't look as if _The Yards_ is going to be widely seen. Its opening on September 8 is limited to NYC and Los Angeles, in other words it's not being marketed as a regular movie with nationwide exposure. Most likely, it'll go quickly to video, which in a way is surprising given its fairly well-known cast.
D-oh!!!
According to the Internet Movie Database, one of the writers of 'The Yards' is also credited as a writer of 'Under Siege 2:Dark Territory'. Yeesh. Can't wait to see the howlers in this movie. 'The Yards' will probably make 'Money Train' look like a documentary by comparison.
- Jim (RailBus)
Coming out on my Birthday, Great. I ll wait for the Video, I doubt if it will get this far West and South
Yeah, I'll plunk down the $$ just to see how bad it really could be.
The preview scenes, as I mentioned, showed some R32/38's inside a shop building. The exterior of the shop building had a large neon sign saying "Electric Rail Corporation" on it. The cars themselves had some funky logos on the blind side of the ends. There were also some night aerial shots of CI Yard as you could see the Shore Parkway in the background as well as some of the CI amusement rides.
I did check the IMDB site, and it is being released ONLY in NY and LA on 9/8/2000 -- from what I gathered it is NOT a production of a larger American filmmaking outfit. Might wanna check your listings carefully, as I have a feeling it is gonna show up in the off-circuit theaters.
the movie gives me an idea for a movie...
it will be called "the wards"
it will be all about railfans written from the inside... the cast will be real life railfans... it will be a great opportunity for the public to see a lot of new faces... fresh faces which have not been seen outside the hospital grounds in years....
Shot, on location in Buildings 38, 75 and of course Building 40!
Haven't been back to Building 40 in a while; maybe it's time to pay a visit to an old haunt...
wayne
The only ones of us on Subtalk who will know what Bldg. 38 is are those of us who grew up in norht/eastern Queens or those who at one time or another were guests.
I spent quite a bit of time prowling around Alley Pond Park and the grounds of Creedmoor State Psychiatric Hospital in my younger days. It seemed like a fascinating place, especially at night. My former brother-in-law spent some time there after a heart attack cut off the oxygen to his brain and he became unstable (he's since recovered somewhat). Bldg.38 and 39 and the rec center (the parts north of Union Tpke) are either vacant or sparsely occupied. Bldg. 40 (22 stories tall) is now under the auspices of LIJ and is undergoing a facelift; Bldg. 73 and 75 are a drug rehab and much of the rest of the facility is now Senior Citizens' Housing units.
wayne
[The only ones of us on Subtalk who will know what Bldg. 38 is are those of us who grew up in norht/eastern Queens or those who at one time or another were guests.]
Train Dude, are you trying to imply that you were a guest???
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
The clickable link.
The Yards
You can't tell its a subway movie from the entry, only clue is the filming location (not much help either). I'll save my $10 and wait for it to come out on the Independent Film Channel.
According to a summary of 'The Yards' on the 'Net:
"After doing time for a crime he didn't commit, Leo (Wahlberg) gets a job (in) New York's subway yards, where he gets tangled up in sabotage, murder and family business."
Maybe the influential Uncle Frank (James Caan) is sabotaging the Japanese and Canadian firms building New York's new subway cars in order to knock off all competition for the 'family business' .... BREDA!
- Jim
I never ould have known (nor posted about) this movie being a subject relating to the subways had I not seen the preview myself. That's why I felt sharing it with other Subtalkers was the way to go.
The Imax movie "Micheal Jordan to the Max" has some shots of Chicago Els rolling by.
The best shot is three second shot from a telephoto lens of a train in the loop - right at the beginning of the movie. It was a gratutitous railfan shot and looked great on the 60' high screen.
there is another article coming out in the new york times about railfans which is scheduled to appear july 30... how do i know?... a reporter from the times called me about an hour ago and i spoke with him for a while... i am announcing this because i know that this will really upset a few people here... the thought of that is really making my day...
the reporter had spoken with david pirmann and was really impressed with the depth of material on this website and with david's dedication...
i will spare you the details of what i spoke of, as my lawyer is checking whether i can be sued for libelous remarks :-)... the reporter has the names of quite a few railfans, who he hopes to contact...
i suggested that he wouldn't have to bother speaking to anyone else, once we had spoken :-)...he said he called me because of the motorman's compartment that i built... i told him that i also have a great gift for comedy... i started to read to him some of the 5000 most asinine of my posts when he was called away to a meeting...
that's about it... i just wanted several of my detractors to get the good news, so that they could eat their hearts out...
Yes, I've spoken with him on several occasions.. and tried to steer him away from talking to Paul. :) Just kidding.
-Dave
the reporter was a nice guy... very easy to talk to... and he was very impressed with what you have put together at this site...
by the way, thanks for making the archives available... i will probably be spending many hours amusing myself reading my own posts...
and my sincerest thanks for creating a space on the web that has been so interesting and so much fun... and also a great place to meet some other people, even if they are railfans :-)
Give him Sea Beach Fred s and he can get a RIGHT WING VIEW on the Sea Beach
July 30 is a Sunday. Which section of The Times is it supposed to be in?
The Times has a habit of putting some of these things in the regional sections--like the "On Line" items appear in the 5 boroughs section, so we don't see it on Lawn Guyland. And they recently had a big piece on LITP2000 which was Lawn Guyland only. AND they don't seem to put these pieces on their website, so you can't link to them.
Very irritating.
i think the reporter told me it was to be in the city life section.... although after speaking with me, he said that they might devote the entire sunday times paper to railfans and more importantly to heypaul
>>>AND they don't seem
to put these pieces on their website, so you can't link to them. <<<
True enough, Christopher Gray mentioned
www.forgotten-ny.com
in his Streetscapes column in Real Estate last Sunday, but it wasn't posted online.
Even if they do post, they yank it on Monday.
Still, two years and two mentions in the Times is pretty good.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Another chance for heypaul to shine again!
Chaohwa
How many of you collect number plates? I have 4: R22 #7330, R26 #7764, R42 #4901, and R44 #353. Also, is it safe to assume that all number plates are taken off cars during GOH and resold (through the Transit Museum) but remain on scrapped cars (as the scrap photos show)? If this is true, I'll never be able to find R10/16/27/30/44-46 post-GOH/62(a)/68(a)/110(a/b)... and eventually the TM won't have any more to sell!
When the R-46s were renumbered, there were over 3,000 old R-46 number boards. The TA Museum expressed no interest in them. Some of the significant #s found their way to some TA employees but most are still burried somewhere out in jamaica Shop.
BTW - I have 1054 & 941 - the only R-46s that never made it to overhaul.
I have 5669 (IRT Lo-V World's Fair), 7589 (R-22), 6246 (R-15) and 4885 (R-42)
I have 7721 (R-22) and 7779 (R-26).
I have BMT B-Type 2260 and 2578 / Multi 7008 / and 1 from a Q-Type but it's buried behind other things and I can't get to read the number right now.
I have a number plate from R17 #6550. I also have an R1-9 number plate somewhere in my collection, plus a few lighted number plates from retired Boston subway cars.
- Jim (RailBus)
I HAVE:
SEPTA ALMOND JOY
705, 899-900
IRT LO-V
4902, 5416
BMT Q-TYPE
1600A
BMT STANDARD
2180, 2654
R-7
1484
R-10
3303
R-11
8019
R-16
6421
R-17
6850
R-21, 22
7055, 7071, 7358-7359, 7448, 7483
R-27, 30
8024, 8068, 8393, 8415, 8417, 8472, 8477, 8500, 8524
R-32 (Original PRE GOH)
3554
R-42 (Original PRE GOH)
4848
R-44 (Original PRE GOH)
278, 2 344's
07/15/2000
Speaking of number plates, I am hot on the trail for R-30 #8451. If anyone out there has one of the original four for sale, please contact me by e-mail only.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since Mark has 705 I guess SEPTA should take it's picture off it's site! http://www.septa.org/store/ptcmap.gif
Peace,
Big D
Yeah!!!! I was lucky enough to get it. Jeff at the museum even told me that it was the one they took a picture of for their site.
R-22 #7477.. get it? 7/4/77.
[R-22 #7477.. get it? 7/4/77]
What's the significance of that date, other than it is the day my son was born?
201 years after the signing of that declaration.
thank you, Henry!!
Where are your sources of number plates?
I'd like to buy one myself! How much do they cost per plate?
Nick
Shore Line Trolley Museum had a dirt car barn floor covered with hundreds of number plates about ten years ago. If you make contact with someone up there, he or she may be able to help you. Most of the R1/9 number plates were there, plus a lot more. Perhaps they still are.
Come into the restoration shop where you'll find number plates and roll signs for sale. Poster Doug aka BMTman had the privilege of purchasing an R-10 Side Destination Rollsign complete with Sign Box some weeks ago. You'll never know what you might find up at Shore Line.
-Stef
Stef,
I'm sure there is no chance that there would be any number plates still for sale from R-16's, or would there be?
Don't know for sure. There's a whole bunch of R-1/9 plates at BERA, but that's all as far as I know.
The Transit Museum might have plates , but I'm not sure.
-Stef
Karl:
We have a number of R 1-9 number plates, many low V plates, and replacement plates from the ABs. I have not seen any R-16 plates anywhere, but I will certainly keep you in mind if I do.
Do you have any idea when replacement plates started to be used for the Standards? When I left the city the Standards numbers were still being painted right on the sides of the cars. The style of those painted on numbers was nice looking too!
07/15/2000
[Where are your sources of number plates?]
You can try the NY Transit Museum gift shop in Brooklyn and Grand Central. They don't have a lot, but they do have some.
Bill "Newkirk"
NYTM shop in Brooklyn had 7771 (I think - it was 777-something)) as of Saturday, and a few others.
--Mark
The cost is $5 at a Transit Museum Gift Shop (Times sq. Visitors Ctr, Grand Central Terminal, Actual Transit Museum). You have to ask at the Grand Central one, they keep them in the back.
My Dad has R22 #7659. I have a bunch of PROPERTY TAGS, most of them solid brass off R-4 cars as they marched to scrap back in 1970-71.
I have #986 and #3062 (flecks of teal paint still on it), two noteworthy combatants AND #3333, an R10 which crashed in 1978.
wayne
I have one solid brass plate from R-6 car #1313. It's was made into a belt buckle many years ago and given to me by a former boss when he retired after 43 years.
Now THAT'S neat! I remember #1313 - saw it several times: on all four Queens routes (E,EE,F and GG). A lovely R-6-1 with Westinghouse fans/electrical equipment.
I have #986 and #3062 mounted on a board with a little "historical info" affixed to it - July 17, 1970.
My Dad brought them home a fistful at a time. He even had the guys in the grinder shop buff 'em up. I've got to take an inventory of these and maybe buy me a can of Noxon(TM).
wayne
The R142A was still in W chester Yard. I hear there having Software problems. I hope they fix the problems soon because I'm ready for another trip.
dave... i'm pretty sure before you retire in 2015, that the bugs will be ironed out and you'll have another chance to operate the cars...
Maybe on my last day?
"855 out of the Bridge to Control"
"855 with your message"
"Control, I have indication but I can not take power"
"OK, 855, did you try hitting Control-LeftDoorEnable-Buzzer"?
"Yeah, OK, the touchscreen says that the application MOTOR
has stopped responding"
"OK, 855, what I want you to do is insert the service pack 69
CD and double click"
"double click? where's the mouse?"
"oh, I mean double-tap the touch screen on the FIX icon"
"it's showing me an animation of an OB-H2 coupler adapter being
installed"
"that's a bad sign, 855"
"wait, I think I found the problem....the last T/O was browsing
the web and filled up the hard disk with pornographic images of
left-handed R-9 cabs"
jeff... your post is about an 8 on the surreal scale... a few more of us here and subtalk will become kafkaesque...
First instance of resetting the 30 day clock! Anybody want to bet how many times the clock will have to be turned back? And the BOMBardier R142's haven't been introduced to the passengers yet!
The Bombardiers' test schedule appear to be running on the millenium clock :-)
Will the R142A be running today, Saturday?
Is this, in fact, a 30-day clock reset?
Also, when that happens, do they simply start counting again, or are the trains out of service for a while before starting again?
The R-142A will be back in service on Monday. It's likely that the 30-day clock was reset, so Monday would be Day 1.
David
I rode her on thurs, her brakes were screeching loudly and stoping was very ruff.
I seem to have read a post that stated there would be a big railfan
gethering of some kind in late August. Can someone clue me in on the what and wheres? I will be in town on the 16th and 17th but I could make another trip if this is going to be a big fanfare. Let me know.
Perhaps you're thinking of the Farewell to Redbirds Fan Trip on Aug 27. If so, see "upcoming events" on this website.
Bob
It's the Farewell to the Redbirds Fan Trip on 8/27 w/ a World's Fair #7 train all over the BMT, including the Observation Car F-116 (sold out) for a premium fare of $50. Price is $30 payable to March of Dimes:
NYCT Subdivision C - MOD Trip
1311 Waters Place
Bronx, NY 10461
I've already proposed that we all wear name (handle) tags for the event because so many of us are going.
Maybe the dates you are thinking of is when they turn the Sea Beach into a shuttle one track in each direction like they did to the old Culver Line and Franklin Lines. The Q will run via Bdwy at all times to Astoria
I still haven't heard from anyone about that supposed candy store that serves egg creams near the 86th Street station. Does it still exist and exactly where near the station is it? I was told there was also a sweet shop in Queens that still makes egg creams. Anyone know about that? I'm trying to cram in as much in two days as my energy level will allow. Someone please give me a post on this.
You've heard it from me, I'm not anyone?
86th Street on which line?
It's called the Lexington Candy Shop.
So the 7th Avenue Line.
Fred is talking about Brooklyn, so it has to be on His Slow Beach Local
No he isn't.
Yes he is, that is where his Grandmother used to live
No he isn't.
You can travel all 27 blocks of 86th Street, and not see one traditional candy store.
There is however a candy store on Lexington Avenue in the mid 80s, and it has been mentioned to him (by me). That's what he's talking about.
You mean I've been living near a source of egg creams for over 20 years and didn't know it?
Pigs, Fred was talking about when he was a kid in the 40 s and 50s, not now
I had to click all the way up to get the original message:
I still haven't heard from anyone about that supposed candy store that serves egg creams near the 86th Street station. Does it still exist and exactly where near the station is it?
Since when are verbs in the present tense used to describe events having occured 50 years ago?
Why would the Lexington Candy Shop be on the 7th Avenue line?
Besides, I know the area around 86th and Broadway quite well, and there's no Lexington Candy Shop there.
Sarcasm
SDNWOTN. (Sarcasm does not work on the net.)
There should be a universal sarcasm emoticon, since facial expressions and tone of voice do not work on the internet.
Todd, Nick, or anyone else in the know...
What time do we meet at Park Street for the Boston Subtalkers gathering?
TIA!
Nick
10:00 AM on the inbound (Green Line) platform.
-- David
Boston, MA
Was the original number plates for R-68 2755 sold off, or were they destroyed?
I got a chance a while ago to see R-68 2755, and I think the numbers are obviously ripped from a R-21/22 redbird (The font was a giveaway). My guess that it is possibly any of these: #7255, #7525 or #7552.
I hardly think that it would have come from an R-12 (which could have been #5725 or #5752). When were R-12's scrapped anyway?
Does anybody have a number plate for those three R-21/22's (or the two R-12's) listed above?
Nick
They are NOT from any other car. They are decal replacements for the originals. This car was involved in an accident when delivered and did not enter service until 1993! While it was in storage, Two of it's boards were stolen.
To see pictures of the new subway cars in the Tren urbano and maps go to
http://www.trenurbano.com
The sites in Spanish put is pretty much self explantory.
Out on a ledge here...
Where in NEW YORK can we purchase
the KRISPY KREME donuts/pastries
that we hear so much about..
and SEE on NY-based "Felicity"???
There is one located in the ground level of Five World Trade Center. The J/M/Z and 4/5 lines to Fulton St will get you there, as well as the A/C/E/N/R lines to the World Trade Center.
They have a working machine in which you can watch the donuts being made.
They also suck, IMO.
Also at least one in Penn Station. Speaking as a Southerner, I've never understood my fellow Southerners' fondness for Krispy Kreme. Maybe it's just because I've purchased so many of them from various middle and high school group fundraisers that I'm sick of them. My daughter was thrilled to find that the Acme grocery store near our New Jersey house carries them - like a taste of home to her.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is one on the main level of the Port Authority Bus Terminal between the Greyhound & Trailways Ticket Place across from the Hudson News!
Trevor Logan
The first one to open up here, about 4 years ago-- 23rd St near 8th Ave. I can see people here don't like them, but to me it is something different than the dry old Dunkins. It's nice to get one fresh and warm off the belt. (I first had them in the college cafeteria down in Va. 14-16 years ago, but those were stale and dried up by the time we got them.)
Well personally I like Cinnabon and wish there were more around. No cinnamon roll tastes as good as a Cinnabon.
There are only two that I know of in NYC, at Citicorp Center at 53rd street and at the Staten Island Mall.
There are a few on Long Island but otherwise they are hard to come by.
I've seen Krispy Kreme all over the place in NYC, what are their donuts like anyways? Better than Dunkin Donuts?
There are loads of Connabons down here in South Jersey. Unfortunately, you get a week's worth of fat and calories by eating one.
Chunky Bob
One of the other posters described them as "french fried air", coated in pure sugar. That's pretty accurate - all sugar rush, no substance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've seen Krispy Kreme all over the place in NYC, what are their donuts like anyways? Better than Dunkin Donuts?
I emphatically state NO! KK's donuts are small, tasteless, covered with sugar deposits. They are edible when fresh, but wait 30 minutes and they become hockey pucks.
Does Don Rickles know that?:-)
[Well personally I like Cinnabon and wish there were more around. No cinnamon roll tastes as good as a Cinnabon.]
They ought to taste good, at nearly 1,000 calories each.
I seem to remember Acme stores in those parts, now that you mention it. Wile E. Coyote comes to mind, naturally, what with Acme Aspirin, Acme Glue, Bird Seed, etc.
Anyway, I had a chance to sample Krispy Kremes last year while in Atlanta, and didn't think they were anything to write home about. Too sugary, I thought.
Acme is now part of the Albertson's chain, although retaining their own store identity (there aren't any Albertson's out here). It's a relatively recent acquisition, I think.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dunkin' Donuts [is?] are FAR superior....and the coffees much better,too!! [talk about off topic! Although donuts and coffee are part of the commuting experience!....]
Yes, Dunkin Donuts coffee is the best coffee in the entire world. A cup of that and a coconut covered chocolade donut is the word's perfect breakfast.
The world's worst? Starbucks. Ewwww ....
>>> They have a working machine in which you can watch the donuts being made. <<<
This seems to be Krispy Kreme' gimmick. I first noticed them when I drove by a store and saw long lines of cars (25+) going through the drive through lane, and hundreds of walk up customers shuffling forward in a line which was reminiscent of Disneyland on a holiday weekend.
Out of curiosity, I parked and joined the line one evening. The novelty of seeing the batter going in at one end and the continuous process of making the doughnuts was interesting, and of course you cannot get any fresher doughnuts than right off the end of the assembly line. BTW it is only the glazed doughnuts that are made that way. The creme filed, and fancy doughnuts are made out of sight of the customers.
But I was not impressed with the size (small) or taste of the doughnuts. I have had much better glazed doughnuts from Winchell's when I was there at 3:00 A.M. to purchase them while they were still hot.
Tom
I'm sorry, but Krispy Kreme's are the best freakin' donuts on the face of the earth right now! You couldn't convince me otherwise!
Trevor Logan
>>> Krispy Kreme's are the best freakin' donuts on the face of the earth right now! You couldn't convince me otherwise! <<<
Trevor;
I would not try to convince you otherwise. To each his own, as I pointed out in my post they are wildly popular in this area also. And of course your own taste should be your best guide for what you eat.
I indicated that IMO Winchell's fresh hot glazed doughnuts taste better. Most people will not set their alarms for 3:00 A.M. to go out and buy them. If you happen to be there at that time, it is a real treat.
Tom
............winchells vs krispy kreme ??????
winchells does taste better here in los angeles & even in denver colorado !!!!! krispy kreme ?? too much sugar!
anyway I have got to stop eating this JUNK anyway!!!!!!
(anyway I have got to stop eating this JUNK anyway!!!!!! )
That's the main point. I think donuts are the LEAST HEALTHY food in existance. It's something you are programeed to want, but unless you are genetically programed to be thin, you can't have.
There is nothing like the donuts of your youth. In Yonkers, that would be Mr. Doughnut. Why was Dunkin Donuts able to drive them out of business? It wasn't that DD is better. We used to have Leewood Soda, a local brand, also.
People are attracted to Krispy Creme because it is a local brand that has survived homogenization. Whether its local character will survive national distribution remains to be seen. Going national didn't do much for Coors mystique.
[That's the main point. I think donuts are the LEAST HEALTHY food in existance. It's something you are programeed to want, but unless you are genetically programed to be thin, you can't have.]
What I consider to be the biggest drawback with donuts is that they are *fast* food. In other words, they slide down just too quickly, so you don't get much satisfaction - and therefore look for more. A bagel with cream cheese probably has as many calories as a donut, but it takes a lot longer to eat and is more satisfying.
Coors is still a Colorado product. They got the naming rights to the home of the Rockies, which bears their name.
Winchells is a West Coast Donut folks. Don't expect to find it on the east coast.
Pass the Best Food please...
They are absolutley awful. I'd rather eat stale bread. I'll take Dunkin Donuts anyday.
Krispy Kreme may be "the Bomb," but the one in Forest Hills (above the 71st-Continental Avenue station, to stay on-topic!) "bombed" after no more than a year.
The reason (at least what I've heard): the Forest Hills donuts were certified Kosher. That means, among other things, being made with vegetable fats instead of lard. Apparently, they just didn't ring true with the Krispy Kreme purists.
I'm told that the Krispy Kreme on 72nd near Broadway is certified kosher. (This information comes from a fellow resident of Champaign-Urbana who has detoured to that Krispy Kreme en route to Boston.)
Last month I stumbled on a Krispy Kreme in Penn Station and was somewhat surprised to see a kashrut certificate posted, so I bought a donut. They're overrated. (The non-kosher ones may be better; I have no way of knowing.)
I have had a chance to wrap my lips around a "Kosher" Krisy Kreme, and judging by what I'm hearing I won't either. But I know for sure that the ones at PA Bus Terminal and at World Trade Center (On Church Street Side) are the BOMB! (KABOOM).
Trevor Logan
>>the ones at PA Bus Terminal and
>>World Trade Center (On Church St)
>>are the BOMB! (KABOOM).
::taking notes::
1SF9
Larry Littlefield is correct---the donuts of your youth are the best---just up the street from the 9th St and 4th Ave station of the F line was/is a donut shop---I think thats all it says on the sign , DONUTS---but I can't say I've ever tasted one better than from that shop---the filling was some raspberry concoction, the granulated sugar coating was superb---as opposed to the Krispy Kreme I had several weeks ago, whereby I could have used a magnifying glass to find the filling---Krispy Kreme, you can keep 'em.
Over-rated is an understatement. They're awful, kosher or not.
Your detist and physician might...
-Hank
Your dentist and physician might...
-Hank
Dentist and Physician. HA! I'm not overwieght nor do I eat that stuff on a regular, not even once a week!
Trevor
Krispy Kreme. The WORST donuts I've ever had. They hit southern California a couple years ago -- and there was a shitload of hype when they did. I found out from someone who worked for them for a few weeks when they were new, the reason behind the hype.
They were told to give a dozen donuts and coffee to anyone with a press card!!! (Honest, that's what this former employee told me!)
As a member of the press, I can appreciate that!
Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. Here in Memphis, Krispy Kreme has the BEST doughnuts ever made! Perhaps it is a regional thing?
......just a quick ( off topic ) comment ........ those over sugar monsters you call doughnuts ??
ok thier coffee is very good & better than dunkin doughnuts but not as good as starbucks.......
& I aint saying krispy kreme doughnuts are not ""doped up with too much sugar" etc.........
however I could not eat them when I was in Atlanta because they were fried in ..........PORK..!!!...( no offence pigs ).
The UGLYEST subway car I ever saw.........was one without railfan windows ......( peace ) ........
Winchells make the best commercial doughnuts I ever tasted !!!!!
Appreciation for them is a regional thing. They're just as deadly, in my opinion, whether I get them at home in North Carolina or up here in New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Around here we refer to the Krispy Kreme glazed donuts as french fried air. You can eat a whole dozen, and only the sugar rush will hit. You never feel stuffed.
There's a franchise outlet 10 minutes from my house, so we can hit the drive-in (in a donut place, yet) and get them home before they cool off.
After eating Krispy Kreme, Dunkin Donuts seem H-E-A-V-Y.
Dan,
I have never heard of Krispy Kreme, and I am not that far away from you. Of course I don't get out that much either.
Dunkin Donuts and a number of local one-store dealers seem to have the market in their control around here.
Two years ago, nobody in Charm City had heard of Krispy Kreme until a local franchiser got a KK franchise. The first two do gangbusters, so 14 or so stores are due to open in the next two years. A KK store is due to open in Downtown B'more near Oriole Park, so you may be able to partake in the near future.
My wife has been sick so there haven't been any trips to Camden Yards this year. From what I've seen on TV, the Orioles haven't been feeling very well either!
I did enjoy my trips on the Baltimore Metro, and miss not going!
Must be regional. For me, I cannot start the day without a cup of coffee and a donut from Dunkin Donuts, served by a recent Indian/Pakistanian/Middle Eastern immigrant.
I can't put into words how indescribably awful Krispy Kreme donuts are ...
Chris, thanks for the warning!
When do you think it will be acceptable to use nite or lite instead of night or light?
Not that I'm against it, those extra consonants are stupid. Noah Webster changed the spelling of certain words and created the first differences between American and British. He even wanted to change tongue to tung and cough to coff. It's about time our spelling stops reflecting Chaucerian pronounciations.
It didn't work in the Nineteenth Century and it won't go over in the Twenty-first either. Other than getting rid of certain unnecessary letters (the U in neighbour and tre in center (Centre), his other shortening suggestions made no impact in the 1800's and won't change anything is this era either.
Plough became Plow, so other silent ghs could have gone too.
There was also jewelry (jewllery), stories (storeys), connection (connexion) and jail (gaol). I think that England even adopted a couple of spelling changes.
Things have changed before. I have no idea what caused the Great Vowel Shift (it's not clear like the Norman conquest) or the elimination of the þ (thorn).
Before complaining about the spelling, notice that Krispy Kreme is more than a corporate name - it's protection against prosecution for false advertising.
If the name were spelled (spelt) "Crispy Cream," then the donuts (doughnuts) would have to be crispy AND be made with real cream. Ditto for "Froot Loops."
Now, can we P-L-E-A-S-E get back to talking about trains?!?!?!
I wasn't complaining about Krispy Kreme, I was mentioning Dunkin' Donuts (aka Dunking Doughnuts), but not complaining, rather I was WELCOMING the new, accepted spelling for doughnut (donut).
Did Dunkin' Donuts coin the now-ubiquitous 'donut' spelling?
A dough nut would be pretty cool... If it dunked something it be even better!
STORE LOCATIONS
--Mike
::patting self on back::
FINALLY!! a successful thread.
Whenever I'm in a bitter mood, A couple of Krispy Kremes sweeten me up! Don't give 'em to the kids tho, they'll be hyper for a week because all of that sugar on them glazed donuts!
Ok, I decided to post my prediction of the R-142.
In the beginning, (when finally in revenue service) there will be several sets of the R-142's being tested with its complete compliment of new technology, trucks, etc. After testing the new trains for lets say, 60 or 90 days, it will become apparent that the MTA just can't maintain the new technology, and will abandon it in favor of current subway car technology. The remaining cars on order will be fitted with standard TA trucks, control systems, etc. Some features might stay with the new cars, but basically, it will be an R-62 in an R-142's clothing. I know I'm being a bit pessimistic here (wish I wasn't), but given the history of the system's abandoning the new in favor of the old makes me really think twice about the the success of the new technology in the R-142.
Just my opinion
Jeff
The benefits of AC traction far outweigh the "benefits" of keeping the old stuff. It lowers the power bill, thus giving the TA execs larger paychecks.
How much does the TA pay every month for power? How much for its "exempt" payroll?
Adapted from the latest employee newsletter:
NYCT has gone to AC motors since they have no brushes which need replacement. NYCT is even experimentinmg with AC motors for the HVAC blowers and is also experimenting with the rest of the HVAC motors.
I am sure Train Dude can elaborate, but brushes (Commutators) are the one part requiring the most service in DC motors.
NJT has gone to AC motors in their fleet, MARTA is converting theirs (SOurce; MARTA web site), PATH will have AC propulsion in their PA-5 cars (When ordered). When PATH's PA-5 arrive (When actually ordered) the PA-4 cars (800 series cars wirth 3 sets of doors each side) will be GOH'd with AC propulsion (Source: PATH Management at last year's October customer advisory group meeting).
To answer another question: the PA-1 to PA-3 cars would be retired once new cars arrive and the PA-4 are overhauled. It is believed that the PA-3 cars (Hawker Cars) will be the first to go since the doors are the most problematic.
Please do not ask when the new cars are coming or what they will look like. There is no formal order pending-- just a concept.
The blower motors (evaporator motors) on the R-68s have already been replaced with AC blower motors. They'll give roughly 50,000 hours of maintenance-free service before requiring replacement. R-62s have also been done. Now the Condenser or cmpressor motor is being tested to see if a 3 phase AC motor will be practical.
Positive side
No maintenance
Less weight
Negatives
Cost
Inverter failures
Something some of those Jamaica R32's can use. Especially the cars which go to the yard every night or two because the a/c failed!
There is no such thing as STANDARD TA TRUCKS. In fact one of the biggest maintenece expenses for the TA is the multitude of different incompatibility of parts between car models
This is simply not true. There are basicallly 2 basic propulsion systems. there are basically 2 different Air brake systems. There are 2 basic HVAC systems and 4 basic door systems. The real differences are in the car-body parts which, fortunately, dont wear too fast and are replaced usually only due to vandalism.
"There are basicallly 2 basic propulsion systems. there are basically 2 different Air brake systems. There are 2 basic HVAC systems . . . ."
One of each for IRT, and one of each for BMT/IND?
Hardly. Approximately 1,650 cars use Westinghouse propulsion. This includes R-44, R-62A, R-68 and R-68A. These have been or are in the process of being converted to the Adtranz E-Cam package. Virtually all others use the GE SCM-1 propulsion system. As far as the Air Brake, virtually all cars use either WABCO RT-2 or the NYAB equivalent. The lone exception is the R-44 which uses a Westcode brake system. The WABCO & NYAB systems are operationally identical identical, with some valves being interchangable. WABCO and NYAB are internixed on both A & B division cars. However, in service, they will never run together except on the E line R-32s.
Thanks. I kind of suspected that one set of each for each division was too simple.
Do the two different couplers in use (H2C and Ohio Brass) count as well?
Let's Go Redbirds!!!
1SF9
Yes, let's go Redbirds indeed. Go to that big old train yard in the sky!
They better not scrap them with haste. I remember when, to my great pleasure, the R9 types were still on the road at night when they were supposed to be laid up [Queens anyway] because the R44 were pulled off the road after the rush hours to have all the ENGINEERING SCREWUPS retrofitted. Like the R142 the '44 was tested ad infinutum. I finally accepted the fact almost 30 years ago that things can't stay the same; but my feelings are that reinventing the wheel in one order of cars has been disastrous. True the R44 are still around but what did it cost to modify, retrofit, repair over and over? Yet some systems don't have these problems, and some do. circa l970 had a lot of MU car flops on a lot of sytems. One solution...the R62's! I hope for all the expense involved and the big plans for the new cars that they aren';t going to be another R44, Metroliner, BART, LIRR M-l, etc.
Suprisingly, the problems of the R-44 and R-46 came down to one engineering mistake. Traditionally, the electric portion was mounted under the mechanical coupler. On the R-44/R-46 they went to a side mounted electric coupler. At the same time they went to the Ohio Brass/Waugh type coupler. This coupler, while mechanically simpler than the formidable H2C coupler, was prone to wear of the hook pin bushing - causing excess play in the interface. Mounting the portions on the sides only magnified the problems of excess play. Considering the sharp curves of some lines, this seemed to be one of those ideas that failed the first test of any new design, "Other than "because we can", why should we do it this way?
At the same time, P-Wire needed a trainline loop with very little resistance since the braking was controlled by a very low current, 0-1.0 amps from full service to full release. Hence, the slightest gap in the electric coupler meant resistance = low or no P-wire = stuck brakes. Of course, there were other errors of design but the predominant error that kept the R-44/R-46 MDBF down under 15,000 miles was that interface.
Around 1986 the A & B cars were hard piped and hard wired together. That cut the P-wire failures in half. In 1988, the p-wire loop was bifurcated, again reducing the failures by 50%. By 1990 when the cars went to overhaul, the P-wire problems were all but eliminated on the R-46 fleet.
In general, all new fleets have had growing pains. in 1994, the R-68 was doing about 23,000 MDBF. Last month mine did 205,000 and barely got a yawn from senior management. The reasons are simple. The orginizational phylosophy has gone from "Oh well" to "Just get it done." With 1,080 cars coming on line amid all the media hype, I'm quite sure that the "just Get it Done" will be written in large bold fonts.
I do believe that the R68's were called "lemons" back in 1987 because so many were suffering structural problems due to shoddy construction. I don't remember all the specifics, though.
But sometimes the "Just get it done attitude" means that the 13th floor is saying: "We don't care about the operational problems out in the field. If our ideas don't work, it's your ass, not ours." I find that those who work at Jay, Livingston, Broadway either forgot where they came from, or were never involved in the actual operation of a train on the road with a train full of passengers. Why test the R142's for 30 days? The TA will accept them no matter what and will do whatever has to be done to make them functional no matter what. Look at how different the R44's are today vs. when they came onto the property.
There is a point to the 30 day test. It establishes the
"punch-list" items that the vendor will be forced to eat.
That is why no one should be angry that at 6:PM on the 29th day without an error one thing comes up and resets the clock. Isn't it better to get the problem fixed before there are hundreds of faulty units floating up the river?
The 30 day test is only one check-point if you will. If this contract mirrors any of the GOH contracts then there will be performance benchmarks built into the agreement. For example, while the R-46s past their 30 day test, the second benchmark was that they would achieve a MDBF of 50,000 miles for a given period of time before the warranty clock would even begin to run. During that time, we found enough deficiencies in the manufacturing to warrant over 130 field modifications. Of course some were do to the TAs incorrect specifications, others due to technological changes (TA Paid for or negotiated these changes). However, those due to MKs failures were bourne soley by MK and its subcontractors. The fact that the TA begins to accept the R-142s or R-142As should not in any way negate its ability to hold the builders feet to the fire.
All of these "predictions" from the Glass is Half Empty Society are just total bullshit. You might look at the R-44 and R-46 as having been a failure, but you fail to recognize new technologies that the TA has adopted over the years:
R-10 (OK, it was the BoT, but still): SMEE technology, fluorescent lighting.
R-36: Picture windows
R-32: Stainless Steel
R-38: Air conditioning
In fact, the R-44/46 was only one of 2 instance in TA history where new technologies were abandoned. The R-11 shouldn't even count because it was only one train like the R-110s.
The only reason the R-62 was bought to the old standard was that the MTA had severe problems with car reliability and service. They weren't about to start playing with new technologies. It's different now.
Since there will be more R-142s than R-62s, why didn't you ever think that it will be the minority car (R-62) that will cause maintenance problems? And did you ever realize how much more expensive it is to completely rebuild something immediately as opposed to maintaining it as an oddball for 20 years?
Next time you come up with your baseless, half-assed predictions, think about it, or at least post it in interrogative as opposed to declarative form.
[All of these "predictions" from the Glass is Half Empty Society are just total bullshit. You might look at the R-44 and R-46 as having been a failure, but you fail to recognize new technologies that the
TA has adopted over the years:
R-10 (OK, it was the BoT, but still): SMEE technology, fluorescent lighting.
R-36: Picture windows
R-32: Stainless Steel
R-38: Air conditioning]
What about the R-68/68a? I don't believe they had any innovative technology.
I mentioned the lack of innovation in the 80s elsewhere in my post.
R10: SMEE braking etc: that was new indeed unless there's other examples elsewhere I don't know about. R36: picture windows: long in use on "big railroads", the little opening sashes were common in Europe long before; R32 : stainless steel, well established on other properties especially mainline RR's, in some cases over 25 years previous; Ditto air conditioning on R38's; in transit form worked out on Hudson and Manhattan later PATH cars of l957.,Chicago L l964. True they were innovations for NYCT but other systems had already proven them practical in most cases.Good thinking on your part however, and as I said earlier I learned things can't be the same forever, just don't overdo it at one time.
The fact is that the R-62 will not be a minority by any standard.
It has SCM-1 Propulsion as do nearly 2000 other NYCT cars.
It has WABCO brake system as does over 1/2 of all NYCT cars.
It's static converter is virtually identical to the R-46 converter (1/2 the size).
It has Stone Safety HVAC equipment as does 1/2 of all NYCT cars
It has Vapor Door Equip. as over 2000 NYCT cars have.
At 400 & 680 cars respectively, the R-142 & R142A will be a minority -albiet a very large minority when it comes to standardization of parts.
Together, there will be 1080 R-142s. On the IRT at least, it'll be a majority.
825 R-62As
422 R-62
approximately 120 Redbirds
They'll still be a sizable minority..... :)
The BOT/TA has a TERRIBLE track record for adopting new
technologies! Basically, they won't order it until it's
been proven in the field by several other properties for at
least 30 years. I'm not talking about trivial things like
picture windows, but inboard-bearing trucks, solid-state
(either chopper or AC) traction, and, going back further
into the history books, air conditioning, sealed-beam headlights,
etc. I'll agree with you on the R-10, it was a major step forward
and other than the use of outmoded (even then) outboard-bearing
heavy built-up frame trucks, it was on par technically with
the state of the art.
That being said, the TA (MTANYCT) has in the past few years made
a complete about-face. They are being looked upon as leaders
in the industry (Canarsie test canaries?) in CBTC. The R-142
order in fact is so high-tech that perhaps they have overshot.
The use of network-based trainline control is fairly out-there.
Now, if ANYONE seriously believes that because of a few minor,
or even major setbacks in the acceptance testing, the TA is just
going to say "aw, f**k it, just deliver the rest of those carbodies
with R-62 parts", you haven't a clue. There is so much politically
invested in these "new tech" or "millenium" trains, not to mention
years and years of staff time, that the cars will simply be made
to work, no matter how much it costs or how much it ultimately
messes up the RR.
Sorry, redbird fans. You'll be seeing the cars again soon as
knives and forks, building materials, etc. Just as the R9s,
the LoVs, the ABs, Ds, BUs, Multis, HiVs etc., their time will
come and then most will be gone. Nothing is going to stop that,
although perhaps if this R142 order is really, really messed up
an extra year or two will be seen.
hey jeff.... sorry to put you on the spot, but you have been involved with quite a range of equipment from your work at branford... if you were responsible for the design of the 1000 or so cars of this new order, what would you have come up with?
I'd do more-or-less the same thing, BUT I would have put
on H2C couplers and keep the primary train control simple
and analog, use the all the computers for monitoring and
rapid fault isolation and correction only. Also, no touch
screens, no automated announcements, no motorman-conductor
"are we stopped on the right side? yes? you say yes? yes,
I say yes. Well, if you say yes, I say yes" system, and
either color LCDs for the front sign or, if that proves too costly,
conventional roller curtain signs with electronic control.
And one more thing: MARKER LIGHTS!
Jeff, my understanding is that WABCO has scrapped the H2C coupler. I guess for 432 couplers, it didn't pay to re-tool. Yhen again, woth all the extra H2C couplers available from the linking of the R-62 thru R-68A, the TA could have sold the bodies to kawasaki & Bombardier for refurbishing & re-use.
I agree with the touch-screen issue but I think the world is moving digitally and that was the way to go.
"I agree with the touch-screen issue but I think the world is moving digitally and that was the way to go."
Besides, digital train control isn't half as scary as "fly-by-wire" commercial transport aircraft. I would presume that the train control systems are fail-safe.
"I would presume that the train control systems are fail-safe."
As I've said many times, the NYCT criteria is that no system is subject to a single point failure. I would suspect that in the case of the R-142, a loss of the propulsion control system signal would result in a graceful shutdown rather than uncontrolled propulsion. However, that is speculation on my part as I have yet to play with the new toys.
Yeah, yeah, I know WABCO cried about the H2 coupler. It's
too bad. IMHO, the H2 was the best rapid transit coupler
ever made. The interlocking knuckles are the key. They
take all of the buff and draw while the releasing dog receives
comparitively little stress. The problem with all of those
hook-and-pin designs is that the releasing pin is stressed
directly in draw leading to wear and eventually failure. When
the H2s wear out and fail, it's almost always in the safe direction
(the coupling refuses to break, at least the "easy way" with the
cut key).
As for touch screens, it's not so much the fact that there is a
bitmapped display that is objectionable (that's great, actually),
but the use of the TOUCH screen. After a few years of heavy
use, those things invariably start to fail with dead spots or
spots that require pushing a few times before it detects. They
are also difficult to operate while wearing gloves. I would have
rather seen the screen with a bunch of heavy-duty mechanical keys
surrounding it that have program-dependent functions (like the
old HP digital scopes).
I think this reflects my design philosophy that when you are operating
a train, it should feel like you are operating a train, not playing
a video game.
Maybe they could pipe in that Beatles tune:
You say yes, I say no,
You say stop, I say go, etc.:-)
Destination signs up front would be real nice as well.
Since I live near Philly, and I can't see these cars, what is the apparent difference between the R-142 & the R142A?
Thanks in advance,
Chuck Greene
The builder's plate.
Would that mean a R-142 would be a Bombadier and a R-142A a Kawasaki?
Help!
Chuck Greene
Yes.
Thanks KMA! That clears that up for me. I just guessed which was which.
Chuck Greene
I am fairly sure that there are other differences, however I haven't yet been on the R-142. I have been on the R-142A.
...and, apparently, the competency of the builder :-)
Other than the builders plate and the numbering series, I've noticed that the Bombardier (142) has a very different accelleration sound than the Kawasaki (142a). The windows may also be different, its been a while since I've stood right next to a 142. The 142a windows are very similar to R-68 windows.
With the renbirth of that part will the MTA spend any money in renovating some of the stations there?
[With the renbirth of that part will the MTA spend any money in renovating some of the stations there?]
There aren't any. An ambitious plan for an "Avenue C jughandle" was trampled to death by the Beame Shuffle in the 1970's. The closest station is the L station at 14th Street and First Avenue, which doesn't seem to be in bad condition.
Sorry Peter, I assumed with the size of that area 5 blocks by 15 it would have had the system going through it. I'm actually surprised.
What sevices the Houston and A B C D aves?
(What sevices the Houston and A B C D aves? )
Nothing. The closest stations in the F at Second Avenue and Houston.
Alphabet City (aka Colear's hook) is way off the beaten track. Even if the Second Avenue Subway was built, it would still be on Second Avenue. On the other hand, you can walk to Midtown and Downtown from there faster than you can arrive by train from most of the city.
Alphabet City (aka Colear's hook)
Where did "Colear' hook" come from and what does it stand for?
It's the name of the area, it's name for Corlear, a 17th Century area landowner.
Thanks, I had never heard that word used to describe the area.
I had never heard of Colear's hook!
Which is correct, Colear or Corlear?
Does it refer to a section of the city the way that Red Hook does?
Corlear.
I thought it referred only to the part of Manhattan where the East River changes from going east to going north at Grand Street, where the M14A and M22 terminate (it flows south and west though). It would be nice to see a CORLEARS HOOK sign on the bus, I'm sure nobody would get it.
Grand Street was once the Road to Corlear's Hook. It was named for it's spectacular breadth (for the time).
I have a very vague memory of a housing development called Corlear's Houses, which was just south of the Manhattan side of the Willie B. It sounds like the same area that you are referring to. I don't remember the Hook part though.
Corlear's Hook Houses. It occupies three blocks. Between Delancey, the FDR, Grand Street and Lewis Street. Triangle between Grand, Madison and Jackson and an irregular pentagon between the FDR, Cherry, Jackson, Madison and Grand.
My grandparents lived in that third bit. The cab drivers had no clue where Cherry Street was.
Cherry Street was the street where the Ave B & Eaat Broadway garage was located on. Water Street was the next block east, followed by South Street.
Corlears Hook is actually below Alphabet City, in what amounts to the far east Lower East Side, just south of the Williamsburg Bridge.
As I said, I can vaguely remember Corlear's Houses, but not the Hook part. It does seem a natural though if I remember the geography correctly.
It will soon be 43 years ago that I left the city. When I left, Spring Creek was called Old Mill.
Spring Creek was always called Spring Creek.
Old Mill must have been an old mill at the end of Fountain Avenue before they started dumping garbage there.
They used it on the destination sign on the B-13 bus for many years. I thought that Old Mill was another area in Brooklyn similar to Cypress Hills.
I don't think I was ever to the end of the B-13, but if there was a garbage dump there I probably didn't miss too much.
I'm wondering...was there a shiobuilder ther (the steamship SS Savannah was built at Corlear's Hook, NY) and Corlear Ave in the bronx any relation?
-Hank
Only the buses. Two 14th Street crosstown lines run through the area. M14 has branches that go down Avenue A, C, and D. M9 uses Avenue B. The Houston Street crosstown serves Avenue C.
The M9 was the East Broadway and Avenue B Transit when I lived there--also back then it was a two fare area since there were no transfers between bus and subway. At least that has been fixed. An Ave A entrance to the Canarsie would be GREAT. And it shpould be cheap, and quick to do.
IINM, any point in Manhattan can be reached from any other point in Manhattan with no more than two buses and a few blocks of walking. So as long as free transfers have been available between the M9 and other bus routes (since 1980, I guess), I wouldn't call it a two-fare zone. There are other parts of Manhattan not terribly near any subway lines.
IINM?
"There are other parts of Manhattan not terribly near any subway lines."
True, but not many that are quite so far as Avenue C or Avenue D.
I beg to differ. When I lived on 7th between A & B, and briefly 11th bet. B & C, I either had to walk over to the BMT @ 8th & B'way or to either 1st & Houston for the IND, or Astor Place if I wanted the IRT. The point is that since we had no transfers from bus to sub, if we wanted close-by service it WAS two fares(when burdened with purchases or other freight).
But you could've just taken the bus the whole way.
And you know where exactly I was headed in each case? Also inb the late 60's IIRC there were NO transfers on MABSTOA! That was one of the interim 'save the 15c fare shucks. Besides riding a bus to midtown in moring rush hour...or for instance to the Thalia @ 96th & B'way?
My point is simply that, since 1980 (or whenever all bus-bus transfers went free), there have been no two-fare zones in Manhattan. True two-fare zones were sections of the city from which there was no way at all to get to (say) Midtown Manhattan on a single fare.
To get to the Thalia (which was at 95th, IIRC, not 96th), take the M14 to 6th Avenue and hop on the M5 or M7. Or take the M15 to 96th and take the M96 (then the M19) across town. Or take the M8 (then M13) or (dare I suggest it) even the M21 to 6th and the M5 from there. Sure, it's slow, but it's an option. Queens residents far from the subway never even had the option.
Those of us who went to high school in NYC and had bus passes quickly learned how to get around the city by bus alone.
Keep in mind that, for all your complaining, the two nearest subway stations to 7th between A and B are no further than the nearest subway stations to the Javits Center and NYU Medical Center (where I worked one summer before the improved transfers, so I did have to walk to 33rd and Park before the three-train ride home, or take the M15 and M86 buses, or take the M34 and pay a second fare for the 1/2/3/9).
If you want poor access to the subway, look at the Corlears Hook area. The nearest subway to FDR and Grand is close to a mile away, and even the bus service in that area is poor.
"If you want poor access to the subway, look at the Corlears Hook area. The nearest subway to FDR and Grand is close to a mile away, and even the bus service in that area is poor.
The Madison/Chambers Street Bus had plenty of passengers from Grand Street/FDR to the East Broadway Station. What poor bus service was there, Ave B & East Broadway?
I don't know about the M14A, but I know that the M22 runs like crap.
The F Second Avenue station's full time exit/entry is at 1st Avenue.
Aren't there proposals from time to time to open Avenue A exits on the L, or even a whole Avenue C station?
[The F Second Avenue station's full time exit/entry is at 1st Avenue.
Aren't there proposals from time to time to open Avenue A exits on the L, or even a whole Avenue C station?]
I've heard of the Avenue C proposals. Doing so shouldn't be too difficult from a technical standpoint because the line is not at any extraordinary depth in the vicinity. It wouldn't be remotely as difficult as a First Avenue/UN station on the 7. Maybe with Alphabet City's general improvement, the idea will go somewhere.
I live on 10th and A and one very handy thing would be an entrance on
14th and A. A the very least on exit.
It would not have not be a token booth, actually anything would do.
Allan
An MVM and iron maiden on each side.
Allan, with the revival of the area how is Alphabet City compared to twenty years ago?
Hi Marty,
I have lived here on and off over the past five years, flirting between New York and Australia. My wife was born here and lived with her parents on Ludlow Street. The whole area has undergone dramatic changes in 20 years of course. In my few years, I even remember the place being a whole lot rougher, I was reluctant to go east of B, but now it’s all gentrified. No more police helicopters flying low about the place shining huge search lights into apartment windows! There is still some remnants of the Hispanic past, but the Jewish stuff is almost all gone, there is still the 2nd Ave Deli and the Jomah Kinish shop on Houston St around and about 1st ave, but that is about it. China town is spreading across Delaney into the streets between Delaney and Houston
The whole area changes character on the weekend, with all the bridge and tunnels people coming in for the bars, restaurants and nightclubs. There is a huge police presence on the weekends. Tompkins Square Park has changed from being a haven for the homeless in the seventies and eighties, but now it’s peaceful enough. The police close it down at midnight and almost every time I walk to the Key Food there are police cars patrolling the place. But still, it’s pretty easy to pick out the dealers about the park, I sometimes wonder how the cops miss them!.
It seems like any time a store is vacated it gets turned into a bar, a café or some sort of restaurant within a few weeks. I’m leaving early next year and will be back in about 2 years, I wonder what changes will happen when I’m away. Even if a second ave subway gets done, it will not get into alphabet city really, maybe if it curves over towards ave B it might make a difference. I did read about some sort of light rail proposal for the area, with connections to Union Square (where all the M14a,c,d buses go)
Allan
I wonder if the people in Alphabet City would like trolleys any better than the residents of Essex Street in Jersey City. Having seen both areas, I think that the much greater congestion of auto traffic through Alphabet City would prevent a trolley system from functioning.
I believe that you are refering to one of the alternate proposals in the TAs Environmental Impact Statement. IIRC, the RPA proposed a branch line off the 2nd Avenue subway that would run east on 14th Street and then turn south and go under Avenue A (or maybe it was B or C.) I don't recall the details, but I imagine you can find it on RPA's website.
The more proper way to phrase that first sentence would be:
I wonder if the residents of Essex Street in Manhattan would like trolleys any better than the residents of Essex Street in Jersey City.
You are not trying enough, there you go correcting again.
SHUT UP
You seem to hate the corrections, yet at the same time you do it too.
I will try to do NOTHING. I have already illustrated my views on the matter.
In fact, this wasn't even a correction, it was observing two same names in the two places.
It seems to me that the target of the intended correction should be the one to complain, if he feels a complaint is in order. I didn't think so.
Regarding your suggested improvement, it certainly is more stylish than the original. On the other hand, the focus of the thread was Alphabet City and its mass transit service or lack thereof, present and proposed. As I am sure you are aware, Essex Street in Manhattan is not in Alphabet City. (It is the continuation of Avenue A south of Houston Street.)
But that area has just about the same transit problems as Alphabet City, except for the Essex/Delancey Station. The LR would still run through there.
Actually, IIRC, the proposal was for the LR to run down Avenue B or C and the corresponding street below Houston and then turn right onto East Broadway to a new portal leading to the disused Nassau loop Manny B tracks.
If the MTA has dissued tracks and stations in that vicinity, why wouldn't they re-open to cater to that part of town instead of having to walk and transfer from bus to subway.
There are no disused stations in that area. The tracks connecting the Williamsburg Bridge to the Sixth Avenue Line have not seen regular service in nearly 25 years. Service was removed as a budget-cutting measure during the 1970s fiscal crisis and was never restored.
David
We were talking about the Manhattan Bridge to Chambers Street tracks, which were removed from service in 1967 to provide for the Chrystie Street Connection.
My mistake; however, the "BJ" tracks (connecting Sixth Avenue with Nassau Street) are closer to Alphabet City than the former "H" tracks that once connected the Manhattan Bridge with Chambers Street. In any case, there are no abandoned stations in lower Manhattan.
David
AFAIK, there are no tracks connecting 6th Avenue and Nassau Street. The disused tracks you refer to go from 6th Avenue to the Willie B. Had there been a direct connection as you suggest, the reverse moves onto the bridge, described in a number of posts here, would never have been necessary. Indeed, such a connection is right near the top of the SubTalk "they-ought-to-build-it" list.
I would also note that, since there are no stations on the disused connection, re-opening it would have more of an effect on travel to mid-town from Brooklyn and Queens than on travel to or from the immediate area.
Sorry...should have been more specific. Those tracks do indeed connect the Sixth Avenue Line with the Williamsburg Bridge, not Nassau Street, which is in the other direction.
David
That's my whole point. We've heard over the past 15 months how well the MTA's fiscal situation has been and the money they've been spending on stations renovations. They could use some of the extra money as well for more cars on some lines and reopen some of the lines they shut down during the fiscal crisis of the 70's.
The 70's are gone!!!! Crime is down, the Bronx isn't burning anymore,Graf movement is over, the T.A.have cleaned up the system. The only thing that remains is SHAFT!
[IIRC, the RPA proposed a branch line off the 2nd Avenue subway that would run east on 14th Street and then turn south and go under Avenue A (or maybe it was B or C.) I don't recall the details, but I imagine you can find it on RPA's website.]
The Avenue C Jughandle. It was proposed as part of the Second Avenue subway in the 1970's but died a similar tragic death courtesy of the Beame Shuffle.
Wow! Sounded like a rough part of town twenty years ago.I'm from Montreal and can't start to comprehend the way that was back then or for that matter if any other neighborhoods are currently like that.
I've read stories and seen pictures of it. It is always a shame when an area goes down the tubes,but even more interesting is how it got that way. I know it was a refuge for the hippie and alternative lifestyles of the late 60's and early 70's. Is this to say; that was the cause for the fall of that area, I don't know, and don't want to speculate.
I was in NYC a month ago and was plesantly surprise by the police presence. The Times square area at 4 AM was just Jammin' with people. Very interesting as opposed to ten years ago.Yet I drove around the "C" and "D" aves. at about 3 AM and did not see one cop car.It was pretty dark and run down. The Graffiti movement from the 80's hit that area hard and there are still strong reminders of it.Very beautiful murals.
I'm still very surprised that no subway stations cater to that part of town.It's vast with Housing projects at the end and high volume of people.
Allan, thanks for the info.
Marty.
It's important to be a little cautious here. Yet, Alphabet City has come back nicely from the abyss of the 1980's, but that's not to say that its recovery is rock solid. An economic downturn or a big increase in the crime rate could reverse the area's fortunes, and quickly. I do not believe that there is yet a substantial mass of middle or upper class property owners in Alphabet City. The neighborhood remains dominated by renters, who almost by definition have less of a stake in its future. Moreover, there isn't much economic activity beyond bars, restaurants and low-end neighborhood places. The bars and restaurants may be attracting many reasonably upscale customers, but a few unsolved murders or an economic weakening will spell the end of many of these places - after all, bars and restaurants in even the nicest areas tend to come and go.
Bottom line - Alphabet City is not at all a bad place today, and might indeed keep improving, but if I were planning to invest in real estate, I'd give it a pass.
I know it was a refuge for the hippie and alternative lifestyles of the late 60's and early 70's. Is this to say; that was the cause
for the fall of that area, I don't know, and don't want to speculate.
No it was not. Hippies etc. moved into the area because it was cheap.
i.e.: It went down hill before they got there.
Elias
Alphabet City was considered a extension of the Lower East Side back to the 19th Century, It was always a low income area, I remember as a kid when my Great Uncle Lived on 10th and A, it never was that great, this is the very early 50s, my dad who grew up further South on Forsythe and Grand said it was always part of the Lower East Side.
[Alphabet City was considered a extension of the Lower East Side back to the 19th Century, It was always a low income area, I remember as a kid when my Great Uncle Lived on 10th and A, it never was that great, this is the very early 50s, my dad who grew up further South on Forsythe and Grand said it was always part of the Lower East Side.]
Alphabet City was hit very hard by the crack trade of the 1980's. It became infested with crack dealers and customers, and crime rates in general soon began to skyrocket. Another thing that didn't help was the condition of Tompkins Square Park, which became the scene of a large squatters' settlement. Only after the decline of the crack trade and the cleanup of the park did the area begin to improve. And as I've noted elsewhere, Alphabet City's recovery is still not a sure thing.
I had read about the epidemic of crack in the early to mid 80's.Specific areas in were hit harder than others. Like Allan had previously posted helicopter raides were a nightly occurence. I can't imagine what that must have been like for both the cops and tennents who had to go through this.
As for the comeback I was down about a month ago not knowing anything about the area and I found myself a little intimidated. if it's comeback, it must have been gone for a long time because as peter mentionned, it still has a way to go.
Gutsy people those who've decided to open shop in that part of town!
[As for the comeback I was down about a month ago not knowing anything about the area and I found myself a little intimidated. if it's comeback, it must have been gone for a long time because as peter mentionned, it still has a way to go.
Gutsy people those who've decided to open shop in that part of town!]
Some parts of the neighborhood are noticebly better than others. In general, the further east (higher in the alphabet) you go, the worse it gets. Avenue A has many of the trendy restaurants and nightclubs, while Avenue D is still pretty rough.
Baruch, Lillian Wald,Jacob Riis Houses.
Any relation between the how rough the area is and who lives there??
Back in the 60's, Wald and Baruch projects were safe and clean areas. When many of us had the means to move out of there to a place we can say we brought, it was not certain if our replacement ever cared about the projects as we did.
Today, I just drive by on Houston Street to look at the building I called home for my first 12 years and wondered if the resident care about the quality of life and to respect other people's property.
Are you saying you lived in the one of those mammoth Projects? It's a subject that interests me immensely and would love to speak to someone who's actually experienced the fall from what it used to be.
How can such a beautiful idea from the 50's turn into a nightmare half a century later? Consequently poisoning it's surroundings.It is an urban phenomenon occurring in most major metropolitan areas in North America and gentrification is turning it around to the detriment of the lower income population.
I'm from Montreal Canada where we don't have the urban blight problem to the level NYC has, this is why I'm searching for any info I can get my hands on.
Thanks for your time... Marty
"I'm from Montreal Canada where we don't have the urban blight problem to the level NYC has."
Well I live near some of the "mammoth" projects you mentioned in your post and I also travel to Montreal at least once a year - fabulous subway btw.
But if I were to compare urban blight in Montreal and the East Village, Montreal doesn't come up quite as rosy as you've described.
If you walk down Ste. Catharine east of Rue Berri, you'll be met with a shocking number of homeless people. Way more than I see daily here. Also, there always seem to be lots of "for rent" signs and abandoned store fronts, a site that's not as common here. Don't get me wrong, I really like Montreal, but it feels a lot more depressed than NY does these days.
As for projects, the quality varies from one to the next. I feel perfectly safe around "First Houses" and the adjacent tower blocks. "First Houses" was the first public housing project built in the US. They're on 3rd. btwn 1st and A. You may want to start your research there. However, some of the projects over past Ave. D aren't surrounded by busy streets as the more western projects are, so they feel a little more sketcy to me.
Just out of curiosity, is the city of Montreal experiencing much in the way of gentrification? Is it a topic of conversation the way it is down here?
You're right Mtl has had it's downs lately. Graffiti is a new topic of conversation in the Mtl media . Something started in the Bronx and 30 years later, here. Street gangs are something popping up in more neglected neighborhood. Gentrification is a term unheard.
We have yet to get to East N.Y, Brownsville or Bronx status but some of our neighborhoods are headed in that direction.
You owe it to yourselves to ride the subway AKA metro system here in Montreal. It is the most beautiful and most quiet system running on the rubber tires. A must see!
Thanks, but what was the cause of the fall?
The Bombardier R-142s are out in full force making a run southbound at Jackson Av as of 3:55PM. This is their second run going south. I suppose personnel are trying to get the bugs worked out once and for all so they can enter service. The full compliment of cars is out, 6301-6310.
As a side note, 6301-10 were out last night in test service, and were followed by 6311-15 sometime later. Have no clue where 6311-15 was going, but may have been going off to the B Division. 6311-15 simply ran through, no tests were being performed.
-Stef
Well sort of. On the latest issue of Parker Brothers NY Edition of Monopoly they have, instead of railroads, the A, D, N and 4 trains with a good front picture of both.
At $25 the game is a bit pricey (I saw it at J.C. Penney) and that was on sale. Hopefully the price will go down even more.
As a collector of other international versions of Monopoly, $25.00 is reasonable. The Israeli and Iranian versions cost me roughly $35.00 each. Fortunately, I didn't pay for shipping.
Speaking of which, I still have that Dutch version for you!!
-Dave
I had forgotten all about it Dave.
E-mail me with details and I'll pick it up this week.
I imagined something like this and IIRC, tried to create one out of paper back when I was young. A Coney Island based monopoly, with Brooklyn streets and the four subways. This is what they should do, beside the New York monopoly. (Since it is a beachside area like Atlantic City, "Boardwalk" would be the same.) They would use our real utilities (I forgot if the NY version does this), and stuff like Nathans and the Cyclone would be in there too.
It's SubTalk on wheels! Hop on over to #metrocard on the IRC channel irc.cjb.net. For people without an IRC client, go to metrocard.cjb.net and click on chat room. For people with an IRC client, log onto the server irc.cjb.net and join the room #metrocard.
--Clayton Parker--
Cheif Technical Officer at #metrocard
Technical Administrator at TransiTALK
headtechie@thetechroom.com
The door open panel now has 3 colored circles (red light, green light, blue button) instead of the panel with several red or green leds above the panel. Also, most operators are using the announcement feature, and for some reason it says the in-station annoucement right after the "Now Entering" announcement.
They still open all the doors at once instead of using the enable feature.
Just noticed that about half the line uses cab signals and the other half doesn't.
It appears from the signs at trackside that cab signals end just before the line reaches Essex Street. I bet they will resume north of Newport Center, when that part starts to operate.
Waited 30 minutes and nothing...Dispatcher at BB said they will be OOS "Until further notice"
The Bombardier set was turned on the inner loop at South Ferry and sent back uptown via 7th Ave this afteroon while making simulated stops both ways.
The r142a on the 6 was making ruff stops on thursday. Her brakes were screeching loudly. The ride was considerably harsher than It was on the first passenger trip which I was on. She pulls into 33rd street southbound at around 1:20 every weekday. I plan to ride her 3 times a week
Interesting, about the R-142's. I was driving on the Cross Bronx Expressway about 6:30 p.m. yesterday (Saturday) and saw newer cars than redbirds on a northbound train at West Farms Square. I couldn't see them real well, but they didn't look quite like R-62A's (of which there are several trains on the #5). I wonder whether they were the R-142's.
It was a great day at Seashore! Joining me and co-organizer Thurston Clark (Mr. t_^:) were Doug aka BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, wsteil (Bill), David S. Cole, Jeremy Whiteman, and Tim Speer. I have sent Dave a number of pictures to post on a FieldTrip Report Page, and I'm sure my colleagues will send more.
Mr. t_^: has volunteered to write-up a formal FieldTrip Report for posting, but the following picture will show one of the high points of the day! That's wsteil, Mr. t_^:, Doug aka BMTman (facing the Railfan Window!), yours truly, and David S. Cole.
Oh, yes - while it rained all day in NYC, it was partly sunny and 70 at Seashore!
And that's Transit and Weather Together!
The rest of Todd's pictures are available at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/mus/seashore/
I'll post the write up when I get it...
-Dave
Todd's photos some it up ... happy faces all around !
Note the one he caught from the outside of the IND's showing Doug checking that the doors are closed.
Mr t__:^)
Todd,
I'm glad to see that Mr. t and the other gentlemen had a great time. It was unfortunate that I couldn't go, but I hope one of these days I'll get there!!! Nice pictures....
Regards,
Stef
Thanks Stef, we hope you can make it some time. We've already talked about doing a "reprise" next year when (hopefully!) there's AMTRAK service all the way to Portland.
So you like the pix of Mr. t_^: and Doug aka BMTman "assuming the position"?
Yeah.... Doug and Thurston in "assuming the position." Wasn't that great?
-Stef
I guess the compress-ah problem is fixed?
Well, yes. But then we had another component fail.
The two-car train made it a few hundred yards, when 800's brakes (trailer car) wouldn't release. It was diagnosed as a component in the battery charging system. So I went to get our engine #300 as a rescue vehicle; 800's brakes were cut out, and the train was cut. I towed 300+800 (=1100?!) back to a storage track, then 1440 made the trip to the end of the line as a solo car.
I'm sure our Curator of Rapid Transit will be in touch with you about more part swapping!
The "R9 Fund" (as we call it -- yes, I know they're technically an R4 and R7A) is in serious deficit due to the compressor overhauls. I left a sizable contribution check yesterday, but more donations are certainly welcome and needed!
We have the part needed and Doug will be in contact as well as your package on the 22nd. Looks like I'm the first one of the 3/4 tone crew back online.
Lou, was this addressed to me or Todd?
Sorry Jeff, I was supposed to say we had the part needed written down. I have no idea if we had the part. Doug all ready yelled at me in email for the mistype. Can't put anything over him.
[We have the part needed and Doug will be in contact as well as your package on the 22nd. Looks like I'm the first one of the 3/4 tone crew back online.]
Wow, Lou! I guess you worked on inventory at Branford's repair shop! So, how many do they still have in stock????
;-)
We have the part written down g*ddarn it. Gee's like I know if we have the part. I couldn't tell what it was even if the name was written on it.
Looks like I'm the first one of the 3/4 Ton crew back online but I don't have the time to post. A full trip report including car numbers and names (some change to protect the guilty) will be posted and pictures to come.
Seashore Saturday
Riding the T in Boston Sunday
LIRR Greenport and Riverhead (closed but able to see what was there) Monday.
Sorry the bottle of wine from our stop at Pindar Vineyards, Peconic LI is almost gone.
Got to go, wife real mad now....
I'm trying to make a list of transit slogans of various companies. What I have so far:
- Going Your Way
NJ Transit - The Way to Go (I used to have a pin saying this, lost it)
SEPTA - At your service Serious about change (What the hell is that?! The old one was better! I practically flung the new schedule off the train when I noticed that!)
Amtrak - All aboard (I think)
Well, that's about it. Anyone like to contribute more?
Also, anyone have a graphic of the old Amtrak logo, I couldn't save it off their site before it was too late.
There was a slogan for a bus company, I forgot where, but it was, "Take the bus, and let our drivers do the swearing for you"
REMEMBER:
WMATA - THE EASY WAY IN. AND OUT!
GREYHOUND - GO GREYHOUND AND LEAVE THE DRIVING TO US.
LACMTA - TRAVEL SMART. TAKE METRO
DART - NOW ARRIVING.
CTA - TRANS IT!
MINNEAPOLIS T - SEE YOU ON THE BUS.
Trevor Logan
Grayhound in the 50s. It s such a comfort to take the bus, and leave the driving to us
= Better Metropolitan Transit
BMT-Lines.com
Not a slogan, but the Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District advertises itself as America's Best Little Transit System.
Tons of logos here:
http://www.amtechnical.com/clipart/
--Mike
07/16/2000
Didn't AMTRAK have a slogan on some old TV commercials..... "there's something about a train and it's magic"? Also didn't 60's singer Richie Havens sing on an AMTRAK commercial too?
Bill "Newkirk"
There's somethin' about a train... that's magic! All aboard, Amtrak
I remember that from commercials I saw in the early '90s. I thought it was the slogan, but according to my napkin collection (I 'borrowed' a stack from the Turboliner a while back) it's just "All aboard."
They had a jingle in the 1980s: "America's getting into training...training the Amtrak way."
Here's some LIRR slogans:
Travel easy on the Long Island Rail Road
Your Main Line to the Mainland
The Route of the Dashing Commuter
Bob, I remember years ago as a kid in the 60's there was a very big billboard on the railroad overpass on Hempstead Av just s/o Jamaica Av that read:
"Traffic got you down, take the train to town."
What it should be,
- Going Your Way but taking all day 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That sounds about right.
IMHO, Duke Ellington's theme song deserves an honorable mention. At least when the R-10s still ruled, the A train was indeed "the quickest way to get to Harlem".
METRA - The way to really fly (Metra is the Chicago area commuter rail agency).
Also, they have some interesting mini-billboards on Metra-line RR overpasses over major highways. One I really like is "Save your driving ambition for work."
-- Ed Sachs
The MTA slogan used to be "We'll Get You There," which was about as much as they could promise at the time.
And before that it was "The MTA - save time, save money, save energy".
--Mark
(And before that it was "The MTA - save time, save money, save energy". )
With traffic and energy prices soaring, they ought to bring that one back. And add in "save your nerves."
RTD's latest slogan in Denver is:
RTD - on the move.
Here are some for Upstate New York:
UTA(Utica Transit Authority)"We're here to get you there!"(most of the time late)
Centro(Syracuse, Oswego and Auburn)"It's getting around"
RGRTA(Regional Greater Rochester Transit Authority)"Your Bus System"
NFTA(Niagara Falls Transit Authority/Buffalo/Niagara Falls)They don't have one, but if they did, "The bus system that is always early"
B61 Leonard
NFTA(Niagara Falls Transit Authority/Buffalo/Niagara Falls)They don't have one, but if they did, "The bus system that is always early"
What do they consider their light rail system? "The subway we don't know what to do with."
The backwards transit corridor. NFTA ( Niagara Frontier Transit Authority). Who ever heard of a line on the surface downtown, and in a subway in the outer area? Go fig.
You're right Dan. I used to live in Buffalo and ride NFTA all the time. I don't believe that I called it Niagara Falls Transportation Authority. It IS Niagara FRONTIER Trans. Auth. Thanks for catching that.
B61 Leonard
Today's nasty weather made pooling or beaching out of the question, so I hit the trains. Boy, do I feel sorry for people not familiar with the system when there are so many reroutes and so few signs or accurate announcements!
Parked by Queens Center. While waiting for Manhattan-bound train on Woodhaven platform, noticed expresses going by both ways. For the past several years, weekend express service both ways has been a real rarity along Queens Boulevard. The MTA website and WINS both announced express only service Manhattan-bound from Roosevelt to the Plaza. The 'R' I got pulled into Roosevelt across from an 'E'. The 'R' conductor told us the EXPRESS was waiting across the platform. The 'E' conductor told us we were running express, Queens Plaza next. We sat on the express track till the 'R' left, then switched over to the local track, proceeding to make all local stops into Manhattan.
Some time later, used the new transfer passageway from the Shuttle to the Brooklyn IRT. Let a Manhattan-bound '3' with full-width cab go by so I could get a front window for the mutant Flatbush tunnel; I get a charge out of possibly seeing a 'D' running right next to a '2'. There were no signs on the inbound Franklin platform mentioning that all weekend '4' service turns at Atlantic, not Utica, and hence no '4' service there. Many people were impatiently staring down the express track. Even better, the conductor on both the '3' I snubbed and the '2' I got on announced the connection for the '4' express across the platform!!
At Atlantic, I switched over to what I hoped would be an R-32 on the 'N' so I could get a rare weekend front window view of the Bridge and 6th Avenue express tunnel, which was how the Brooklyn segment of this weekend's split 'N' services was being rerouted, rather than though Montague. Alas, when the third R-68 in a row came I bowed to time pressure and got on. The conductor was very good about telling people about the above mentioned service change and alternatives. He even mentioned the neighborhoods and attractions the stops we were making offered, although he listed "Green-witch Village" among West 4th's charms.
I just got cut off by a departing Queens-bound 'F' across the platform at 42nd, so had time to notice that the uptown 'B' and 'D' that passed both announced the transfer to the '7'. Fine, but there's no '7' service in Manhattan this weekend. I politely tried to advise both conductors of this after they made the incorrect announcement. I can understand that they don't want to be contradicted by a layman, but YEEESH!
The passageway from the mezzanine to the '7' was thankfully taped off, and there was an attendant trying to help all the confused people who followed the condutors' advice to transfer to a train that wasn't running. She and I agreed that even though it's hard to keep up with all the GOs, the conductors should be aware of and announce all disruptions on the lines theirs connects to. Question is, do all conductors hear of all GOs, or just the ones on their lines? Is there a GO bulletin distributed for each weekend?
I also tried to assist a very angry woman who was trying to get to 110th/CPW, but was told "there was no 'C' this weekend", a misleading statement. Maybe she misinterpreted this from hearing that there was no uptown local 8th Avenue service. I offered her four alternatives: (all expletives on her part deleted)
-Take the 'D' uptown to 125th and cross over for the 'C' back downtown. "No way am I going up to HARLEM!!"
-Take the 'F' down to 14th and change for the uptown '1' to 110th/Broadway, a few blocks over. "No way am I going all the way down to 14th!"
-Take any train down one stop to 34th, change for the uptown 'N' or 'R' to Times Square, and change for the uptown '1' there. "No way am I gonna change TWICE!"
-Go outside, walk over one block to Times Square and pay another fare to get back into the system for the '1'. "No way am I paying another fare! These trains [stink]!!!"
Somehow I made it back to Woodhaven in one piece. And it turned out QUEENS-bound was express only from the Plaza to Roosevelt, not Manhattan-bound like the official site said!
I wasn't on any lines that connect with the '9' or 'Z', so I don't know if anyone announced transfers to them. It has happened on weekends in the past.
Why not take the D to 59th and the 1 from there?
As a Station Agent I am sorry you had difficulty due to the G.O.s during the weekend.
I am not familiar wirth your specific cases, but many times we do tape off a passageway or platform and people break or remove the tape. One time I was at a station awaiting the start of my shift(tour in Transit speak) and I personally taped off a platform- not once or twice but three times. All 3 times the tape was broken by customers who decided they wanted to wait for the train (even when I told them there was no train). After waiting for the train and seeing it on the express track, they finally got the hint and I fixed the tape. Signs- we do tape up signs but here too, customers tear them down (as if that will cancel the G.O.). At the same station I saw supervision tape up notices and right behind the supervisor was a customer tearing them down. I followed behind the customer and put the notices back up and yes- right behind me someone else was taking them back down. Yes- I put them up for as third time!
Notices also disappear as scratch paper. Again, I am sorry you had difficulty using the system. I realize weekends and late nioght/overnight can try a customer's patience and hope you give us another try.
The people who remove notices and barrier tape believe in the Philosophy of Dual Denial: [1] "If there's no Service Change Notice, there can't be any service change"; [2] "If there's no barrier tape, then my train will HAVE to run on its normal track." Others simply stare at the sign, or at the station agent, or at the shuttle bus, and then wonder why they aren't getting anywhere.
I've also noticed that the conductors ARE informed of proper G.O. announcements - I saw one holding the script and reading from it, typos and all!!
Then again, a conductor on the #1 announced only that there was no service north of 137th "due to a general order." In that case I pretended to be confused and (on behalf of a few hundred others who really WERE confused) asked her what "general order" meant. She replied contemptuously that she didn't need to explain because "everybody knows what a general order is" - i.e. all New Yorkers are Transit employees and/or railfans. Yeah, right.
Not to be outdone, a conductor on an A to Euclid announced (and had the train signed for) Far Rockaway, "because that's where I normally go," even though he knew he wasn't going there that day. (That guy also announced a transfer to the M at East New York "because you can get to it from here"!) Others insist on announcing the Z outside rush hours, the Q on weekends, and so forth ("if it runs at ANY time, it must be announced at ALL times").
Question is, do all conductors hear of all GOs, or just the ones on their lines? Is there a GO bulletin distributed for each weekend?
A Division (IRT - numbered lines) and B Division (BMT/IND - lettered lines) rarely hear about GOs affecting the other division. The usual exception to this is GOs that affect Queens service on the Flushing line and Queens Blvd lines. If the 7 is only going to Queensborough Plaza, most of the CRs on the N, R, E & F will be informed in the hopes of avaoiding mass confusion at QBP and 74th St. The same holds true if service is massively re-routed on the Queens Blvd lines - the 7 line CRs will know about it because of the extra service.
In general, most CRs will only read GOs that affect the line they are working on on a particular day. The connection at Franklin is one of those force of habit things, made that much harder by trying to figure out when the 4 really does turn at Utica. GOs are distributed 2to 3 weeks in advance of the actual work, unless it is some kind of an emergency.
Now, a question for you - what is this mutant Flatbush tunnel you refer to? i don't know of any place where you can be on a 2 and see a D running next to it.
If you are on a southbound D or Q train, look out the right-hand side of the train just before it gets into the 7 Av station in Brooklyn. You just might see a northbound IRT local train.
David
Under the stetch of Flatbush Avenue from the LIRR terminal to Grand Army Plaza, both the IRT and BMT Brighton lines run. it's quite an elaborate setup in which the two 'D' and 'Q' tracks run BETWEEN the local '2' and '3' tracks, with the express '4' and '5' tracks one level below.
Tracks for the two different divisions run right next to each other just east of the 7th Avenue station, which is squeezed in between the IRT local tracks and separated by walls. (Someone once stated that before that platform was extended, you could see passing IRT trains from the extreme southern end of the station.)
It's long odds, but once when I was on a New Lots-bound '3' stopped just before Grand Army, I clearly saw a 'Q' passing us on the left as if it were an express. Riding at the front of a Manhattan-bound '2', the BMT tracks are visible between Grand Army and Bergen directly to the left and at a slightly lower elevation.
There are color-coded track maps of this area available for viewing elsewhere in this website.
Inasmuch as the IRT came through this area in 1912 (?) and the BMT in 1918 (?), it must have been some feat, logistically and legally, to construct this. Even in the early part of the century, Park Slope/Prospect Heights were heavily developed.
I think both sections of track in the "mutant tunnel" were constructed at the same time. This layout was a compromise for the BRT and the IRT who both wanted to run service up Flatbush Avenue. In fact, the IRT thought it was going to get the contract for 4th Ave (Brooklyn), too, and the walls of the southbound IRT local just before Atlantic Ave curve somewhat in anticipation of this connection that never happened.
--Mark
Mark S. Feinman wrote:
...and the walls of the southbound IRT local just before Atlantic Ave curve somewhat in anticipation of this connection that never happened.
Observation on my part shows the tunnel widens to accomodate the ramps that would have descended to the 4th avenue line.
---PCJ, nitpicking :)
An employee works a certain line on the weekends. When they ask the dispatcher about any G.O.'s, the dispatcher is only concerned with G.O.'s affecting HIS line.....Yes, G.O.'s are posted on bulletin boards. Finding them is another matter! Dispatchers, motor instructors and the like take them down for their own usage (esp, extra list people who bounce around) so that they have a copy for themselves, none for the hourlies!....a line like the R from end to end has transfers to virtually every other line in the system. As a practical matter, with all the G.O.'s going on throughout the system, there is no way to remember them all as to hours and which days and if one or another is cancelled outright or suspended for a day. Finally, the A division does not get the B divison G.O.'s and vice versa..... Probably, those reading this will read this as simply as an alibi. Sorry. There are so much stuff going on over the weekends, changing from week to week, it is impossible to keep up with it.
I have a BIG problem with that scenario as as an hourly. I work an interdivisional work train reporting to an IRT yard which does service for both the IRT and BMT. Last week, a passenger asked me where the E to Queens was located on the Times Square "N" platform. He told me the E wasn't on 8th Ave, the R of course isn't running and because I wasn't sure of the F line as to its destination, I told him to take the N line to QB Plaza, the 7 to 74th Street and he's on his own after that. All I knew when I left the yard was a single track operation on the Flushing. The NYCTA frequently keeps it's employees in the dark when it comes to service changes and the Control Desk Superintendants complain to holy hell when someone has to call them for G.O.s they they claim they pay us to read.
Do the new automated announcements announce transfers? Do they change to reflect the service available at the time (ie, would they stop announcing the Q on weekends?) And could they learn about GOs and announce the changes from them?
They don't announce the Q after 8PM, and they only announce the Z during rush hours. However, they announce the transfers at Bleecker st. in both directions (only available from downtown platform). The 6 express announces the 6 local at 3ave and Hunts Point, but when it is going in the local-only direction it does not announce the express.
49st / B'way uptown did not have any signs saying that the R was bypassing the station, nor was it announced anywhere. Result: People let the N go by, see an R pass on the express track, and (hopefully) take the next N to get the R at 57th, 5th, or Lex. If the person is incredibly thick-headed, he/she will wait for several R trains to pass on the express while passing up several N's until 5AM on Monday morning.
Canal Street on the No.6 was the same way. You have signs telling riders that the No.4 Train is makeing all stops between Canal St and Atlantic Ave. It turns out only the Uptown No.4 was going local do to track work and downtown No.4 trains are running Express. When I was working Saturday you had people just standing on the platform waiting. You would think after seeing a No.4 go by on the Express that they would get the idea to take the No.6 to Brooklyn Bridge.
Like I said in another thread
- Going Your Way and taking all day.
Peace,
ANDEE
The movie "The Yards" got me thinking about another movie made a few years ago called "A Stranger is Watching". Not a very good movie but one scene is filmed at night in a NYCT yard. Does anyone recognize what yard was used for the filming? (I don't)
this weekend on "this american life" on national public radio, they are repeating a program called
"roadtrip"... this american life is a rather strange program coming out of chicago... each show has a theme and there are several parts where different people talk about their lives relative to the theme... "roadtrip" is what makes getting out on the road so appealing for many people... there is a segment of this episode in which dishwasher pete is interviewed about his experiences on greyhound... pete washes dishes and after a while picks up and gets on greyhound and goes to the next town... he likes riding greyhound... then national public radio gives him some audio equipment and an ameripass and he heads out on the bus trying to capture the greyhound experience... but he's in for a big shock when he discovers that his attempt to document the greyhound experience changes his whole joy of riding greyhound... it is a very compelling 10 or 15 minutes of radio... in the new york city area it can be heard sunday at 2 pm on wnyc 820 am or at 4 pm on wnyc 93.9 fm... if you are outside the city, you can find your local npr station and times of broadcast at http://www.thislife.org/
if you have missed the airing, after this week the episode will be in their archives available on real audio...
if you have never heard this american life, you might want to check it out some time... it has a very different kind of sound for radio
In today's national edition of the "New York Daily News" located in the Showtime section you will find a large Movie Memory picture. It is a 1976 picture of a very old looking Bing Crosby riding a subway train in the city.
Part of the car's interior is shown, including a partially obscured portion of the car's four digit number printed on the rear wall of the motorman's cab. The last three numbers appear to be 885, the first digit may be a 7.
Can any SubTalk Detective identify the subway car model?
7885 = An R-28?
-Stef
Your question mark after the R-28 scares me. I am really not sure about the 7 being the first digit.
I can see by the storm door window in the picture that it is not an R-17 though!
Thanks for responding!
R-28 .....7860 - 7959
Suppose it was 8885...an R29, and can't tell that apart from an R26/28 type. Ouch, I checked my roster; 8885 is an R33, can't tell the regular R33 apart from R26/28/29. Could you tell if its a wide car or narrow? That leaves the possibility of 3885 (R32). That would have picture windows. You already counted 6885 (R17) out, so I've run out of ideas to ruin things.Leave it to big ed; it's been fun!
What color were the seats? In the '70s, the R17s should have had black fiberglass seating while R27/30 and R28/29 cars had the pinkish red seating. How many windows are visible in series? There would be three windows or two plus the side signs for the BMT while the IRT had two or one window and one sign in series. Also look for the emergency dropdown red glass oval over one of the windows.
The picture is in black and white, and all seats visible are occupied, so I am unable to tell the seat color. It is apparently cold weather because overcoats are in evidence. Bing is not wearing his overcoat, but has it over his left arm.
The only windows visible are the two door windows and a corner of the storm door window.
I am really surprised that I am apparently the only one who saw this picture in the NY Sunday News, and I am 250 miles away. I thought for sure that someone would say "I saw the picture and that is an R-? because......."
I have been studying the few books that I have, and I think Stef is right on the money with his ID of it being an R-28!
I ruled out the R-17 because the storm door does not have a porthole window. The only other windows visible are the side door windows directly behind Bing. Bing is standing in front of the end closed side door. To his right is the back wall of the motorman's compartment. There is a number 2 visible right alongside the emergency cord. I assume that means this is the number 2 end of the car. I have a gut felling that it is an IRT (narrow) car.
I think Stef is probably right with R-28!
It is R-28 #7885
Peace Out
David Justiniano
07/17/2000
I saw the picture and the car number is #7885. The panel doors have the rubber around the glass which the R-17's didn't have. Then there is the "Picasso" subway map, one of the worst ever designed. This is some graffitti on the cab wall, but none elsewhere. Perhaps this is a recent platinum mist with blue stripe job, interior must be hospital green with gray doors. the tan walls with orange doors came later. Commuter's Daily News has the name "Patty" on the headline, possibly Patty Hearst? Ceiling fans are evindent so it's pre A/C. It says that Bing was in town to do on some golfing on Long Island. Perhaps on the way to penn Station to catch the LIRR?
OKAY NOW! In 1976, which line could #7885 be running?
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a news clip around 1980 featuring a picture of a motorman electrocution on the Pelham line. 7867 was in it so maybe at the time, 7885 was assigned toWestchester Barn. That car was a Westinghouse car at the time, so it should have been assigned to Westchester.
I BEEN THINKING IT WOULD BE NICE IF THE NYCTA HAD VIDEO CAMS ON
THE SUBWAYS, SO THAT WE SUBWAY BUFFS CAN RAIL FAN FROM OUR OWN
COMPUTERS, THRU THIS SITE.
You can buy front window views from a couple of people on this site.
I doubt the NYCT would provide *this site* with anything like that. I also don't have the software or server capacity to do streaming video no matter what the source.
-Dave
Why this site? Think of the revenue that the MTA could bring in by instituting a subscription service that allows its subscribers to plug into the feed from any camera in any public space on any MTA property.
$x/mo for each feed or group of feeds you subscribe to.
If MLB can make more money from its TV contracts than at the gate, why not the MTA?
(Think of the revenue that the MTA could bring in)
You know, there are plenty of sites out there that just show the view from or of X. If the MTA's communication system were up to the job (and it may be someday), I think a page with just a few views could make money just from ads scrolling along the bottom.
I'd recommend front (looking out) and interior (middle car -- looking at the people) views of a #4, F, #7 and J train, along with a high view looking down on Grand Central Terminal and a similar one looking down on the action in the Coney Island Yard. Just show the live pictures 24 hours per day.
Actually, there are security cameras inside R28 cars 7910 and 7911 so you can see the "crush cams" located inside the old ceiling fan covers.
If nothing else, if the MTA broadcast "crush loads" on the Lex, with a complaint diatribe about all NYC's tax money going to infrastructure elsehwere, someone might decide to fund the Second Avenue Subway.
Has the spur from the R8 Fox Chase (which one could speak in the same tone as "(E) Heath" or "N via Tunnel") to the R3 West Trenton ever been used?
Has the 22 bus ever been used as a replacement for the R2 Warminster?
What is the longest (in terms of distance) bus in the SEPTA system? (I'm guessing it's either 55 Olney-Doylestown or the 93 Norristown-Pottstown.)
The R8 extension beyond Fox Chase, to Newtown, non-electrified, is what I am assuming you're talking about. The old Newtown line crosses the West Trenton tracks but there has never been a connection (oddly enough even though both are ex-Reading). One proposal for re-establishment of Newtown service is to connect the two with service north of the R3 connection and abandonment of the Newtown line south of R3 (where it was always weak anyway). This has been long opposed by the town of Bethayres, in which the connection would be located.
I'm not sure if you mean an official replacement or a temporary one. Shuttles have been used for Warminster service during intermittent track renewal and crossing projects (due to much of R2's outer stretch being single track) but I don't think this was ever an 'official' replacement. 22 serves a different area and is less direct than R2.
I don't know for sure but I always thought that the 104 was the longest bus route on the SEPTA system. I'll have to check on this one (I know 104 has perhaps the most fare zones).
I did some checking and it turns out that the 104 isn't the longest by any stretch of the imagination (I guess it just seemed that long when I rode it many years ago!). Actually the 99 Norristown-Pottstown is the longest bus route on the SEPTA system at just over 34 miles one way. 93, which serves the same towns but with a slightly more direct route, is just over 29 miles each way. 22 and 55 are up there, with (another surprise) 124 and 125 among the longer routes. I believe the 18 is the longest totally within city limits.
First off let me give some background info for everyone who hasn't heard of the Atlanic Steel Redevelopment. All the info for it can be found at CRB Reality's web site , the developer of this project. This development is in Midtown, on the site of an old steel mill. It's on the west side of I-75/85, where the two interstates merge. This development is going to be a huge office, residential and entertainment complex, with 4 million sq. ft. of floor space, and it covers an area, it seems, almost as big as downtown. Here is a diagram and a picture of the area . I am all for it, I can't wait for it to be completed. The first phase opens in Fall '02, and Phase III will be completed by 2012 (!) That's how big it is.
Anyway, the developers believe that to make the project successful, a bridge has to be constructed, the 17th St. Bridge . The developers are going to try to make this development as transit and pedestrian friendly as possible. Like having scarce parking, wide sidwalks, and a light rail line from Arts Center MARTA station, crossing the bridge and going though the development (I'd rather have a subway, but hopefully the light rail will go underground when it crosses the bridge). Nothing wrong so far.
Okay here's the problem. They want this bridge to become a landmark for Atlanta. So they are going to make this bridge stand out. They haven't designed it yet, but it looks like they want to make a suspension bridge, or something as extrordinary. What is that? Think of every landmark bridge in the world. what do they have in common? They all go over natural barriers, like rivers. What does this Bridge in Atlanta going to go over? An INTERSTATE!! Can you honestly picture a tight-ass looking bridge going over an interstate?
Right now I'm sounding like the Parisans who complained about the Effiel Tower being ugly, or the San Fransisans (sp?) who complained about the Golden Gate Bridge ruining the view of the bay. However, it should be noted that world famous landmarks, for the most part, were never meant to be famous to begin with, they just turned out that way. The developers of this bridge should try to make this bridge somewhat standard looking for a highway bridge. But, they should make it look like the most F***ed up, ugliest looking bridge they think of. Why? Because the more radical it looks today, the more famous it will be a hundred years from now.
The point I'm trying to make is that no one can go out and make a famous landmark over night as their intention. They need to just consider function and then just get creative with the functional bridge. A suspesion bridge over an interstate is not functional. That's the best way to make a landmark.
Interesting - how scarce will the parking be? How much of the project will be residential, vs. commercial? Any affordable housing or all upscale? (I guess I could stop being lazy and look at the web site). If this project is at all dense and transit oriented, it is a great thing environmentally. Redevelop a brownfield in the urban core- preventing lots of sprawl on the edge of the metro area.
But I don't completely agree with your history. I think that the designers of the Golden Gate bridge, for instance, were very aesthetically aware - the bridge was clearly designed to look good. I agree that it is a bit silly to put a suspension bridge over a highway. But the great structures of the past that we love today were designed to look good, not just function.
Parking will probably be just for residents. As for the Golden Gate bridge, it was first designed with function in mind, then they made it look good for astheics. This is how they should do the bridge in Atlnata.
I was riding a number 2 redbird southbound at exactly 11:10 am this morning, after the redbird pulled out of the Freeman Street station, I saw the R-142 coming around the big curve after the Simpson Street station.The train was heading northbound towards Freeman Street, with the motorman driving and someone else in the cab across from the motorman.It was a ten car train,with another motorman riding in the cab, in the tenth car.They should of kept the red stripe for the entire length of the car, instead of part of it.I really couldnt here the train since the redbird windows were small.To me the train looked kind of dirty and dull. I remember when the R-62's came out some years ago, they were much shinier in appearance.
07/16/2000
Now can someone answer this question. Were the R-142's picking up revenue passengers or just running light?
Bill "Newkirk"
running light it bypassed Freeman Street
To my suprise and amazement, I was standing at 34th street station on the IRT and with my own two eyes I saw a Lenox Avenue subway car #2099 with a railfan window, no OPTO booth.It was nice to see there are still some of the R62A"s with railfan windows!!
Oh man! Your Subject Line made me think you were going to tell me that the TA decided to tear the cab doors off so we can see through.
.........wonderful & great news !! .....this also needs to be done with the new R-142s as well...........
Question ....which lines does the r 62 still ahve railfan windows ?? hopefully the # ! ???
The only line with R62A single cabs are on the No.3 Line however there are some wide cabs.
Since the plan for the future is to transfer some R-62A singles currently on the 3 to the 7 line for 11-car train service, I suppose we can hold out hope that those singles will end up on the end of the train sometimes.
- Jim (RailBus)
There are only 3 spots a single could end up on a #7 composed of 2 5 car sets. The first car, the sixth car, the eleventh car. There's a 2/3 chance it will be on the end. Since the TA seems to have a habit in not putting the transverse end of one car (the end of the 5 car set) next to the non-transverse end of another (the single), one of 3 things could happen:
1. They will transversify both car ends of the single if its in the middle (both 5 car sets adjoining have transverse cabs).
2. They will transversify both car ends if its on the end (one car end because its the end of the train, the other car end because the end of the 5 car set has the transverse cab).
3. They will de-transversify all cabs (simple, but not likely).
Most R-62As on the 3 still have half-length cabs, I believe the ratio is (transverse)4:6(nontransverse). Since the cars are singles, any car can end up in the front.
The subject line made me think there
was a discovery of someplace which had
LIVE!!! transmissions of Railfan Window
Images... ala an earlier thread.
I m off to Melbourne and Sydney Australia tonight. I have received permission from both Cities Transit System to film(video) their systems. Will spend one full day riding Melbourne's famous Trams and tapeing. Back in a week.
What we really need is a new Manhattan Bridge. Long-term, far in the future - there will come a point when the existing Manhattan Bridge is condemened and NYC will have to stop patching it up with Duct Tape and just build a new bridge. So what will happen to the subway? Here, in order, are the short-term reroutes that would need to be enacted for a few years while the existing Manhattan was torn down and a new one built in its place. The reroutes assume that no track modifications would be made, but that a free transfer would be built between the Franklin Ave. Shuttle and the IRT 2/3/4/5 Franklin station:
The first list is rerouted Brooklyn lines and the other lines that would be affected by them. The second list is affected trains in Alphabetical Order.
LOGICAL:
The D train would no longer serve Manhattan. D trains would use the Franklin Ave. Shuttle Tracks, terminating at Fulton. A new free transfer would be built to the Franklin Ave. IRT station on the 2/3/4/5. While Brighton local (D) customers would lose direct service, they would be able to transfer to many different trains instead. It would suck, but only for a few years. They could transfer to the C/Q/2/3/4/5 though so it wouldn't be THAT bad. D service in the Bronx would be renamed Y and would terminate somewhere in Manhattan (location to be decided). Q trains would operate through the Montague St. Tunnels, then use the BMT Broadway Express Tracks to 21st/Queensbridge. B trains would also be rerouted via the Montague St. Tunnels. With the Montague St. Tunnels being used by the B and Q, M through service would be eliminated (to free up space in the Montagues), and the R would be reduced to a shuttle from 95th to 59th. While this would certainly anger Bay Ridge residents (who have been a very vocal bunch), when the new bridge was finished N rush-hour express service from Bay Ridge to midtown via the new Manhattan bridge would be restored. With the R not serving Queens, the F would run local in Queens instead. In order relieve overcrowing on the C caused from D train customers transferring at Franklin/Fulton, the E would also use the 6th Ave. tracks, and B service in the Bronx would be replaced by C service. This would free up the 8th Ave. Local tracks so that the C would be the only train using them, thus allowing increased service on the C. E trains, already orange, would follow a clone of the F's route all through Manhattan, and then use the lower-level Bergen Platforms and the F express tracks to Church, where they would terminate.
ALPHABETICAL:
[B] The B train would become a BMT Broadway (Yellow) train, using the Montague St. Tunnels. Rush-hour Service to the Bronx would be replaced by some C trains. The B would run full-time to 21st/Queensbridge via the connection from the 63rd St Tunnels to the BMT Broadway tubes.
[C] The C would follow the same route it does now, except that C trains would also serve local stops on the Grand Concourse line during Rush Hour.
[D] The D would use the Franklin Ave. Shuttle Tracks, terminating at Franklin A/C station. A free transfer between the Franklin Ave. Shuttle and the 2/3/4/5 would enable D users six different choices as to which train to transfer to, since they would have lost direct service to Manhattan. The 7th Ave. station in the joint subway would only be open rush hours. D service in the Bronx would operate as usual, except that it would terminate in Manhattan somewhere (location to be decided). Since these two different D trains would not connect, Bronx D service would be renamed Y.
[E] E trains would use the 6th Ave. Local tracks, following the exact same route in Manhattan as the F. E trains would use the F express tracks in their entirety - using the lower level platforms at Bergen and then running express to Church where E trains would terminate (E trains would be orange during this time)
[F] F trains would run local in Queens, replacing R service. In Manhattan and Brooklyn, the route would remain unchanged.
[M] M trains would terminate at Broad St. during rush hours. M through service to Bay Pkwy would be discontinued.
[N] N trains would follow their regular route, except running local between 59th and 36th (in Brooklyn).
[R] R trains would terminate at 59th so as to free up space in the Montague St. Tunnels for the B and Q trains. R service in Queens would be replaced by the F.
[Q] Q trains would run express from Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, to Prospect Park and then use the Montague St. Tunnels and the BMT Broadway Express Tracks. Q trains would continue to terminate at 21st/Queensbridge. The 57th St. station on the 6th Ave. line would be closed.
[Y] New service that would operate exactlty the same as D service in Manhattan and the Bronx, except that it would terminate somewhere in Manhattan.
This would probably be 5 years or so, so at some point it would be tweaked based on what areas had the most overcrowding. But a new Manhattan bridge would be worth the wait and hassle.
just though i would encourage everyone to post their own ideas as to what would be good routings for Brooklyn Subways in the event that the Manhattan Bridge did not exist (south side OR north side). Does anyone else have perhaps a better idea for reroutes? It's an interesting idea - the Manhattan Bridge isn't going to last forever.
This is what I'd do. I'd have B and Q trains run down Broadway express, then through the Montague street tunnel via their regular routes. R service would be eliminated, with a shuttle from 59th to 95TH. N service will run it's regular route. M service to Bay Parkway will be eliminated, as it is now, it could be cut out.
D service would run as a 6th avenue local, then to Coney Island via the F line, with a directional express (to Manhattan AM, Brooklyn PM).
The Brighton local would become the new Y train, and would run on the Franklin shuttle after Prospect Park.
The V would replace the R in Queens, and run through the 63rd street connection, then as a 6th avenue express to Grand street.
The Q would run to 179st via Queens Blvd express to compensate for cuts in F service to make room for the D. D would run as a local on CPW while A service is added to compensate.
What trains would serve the 4th Ave. local stops?
Probably the N.
Any trains going to Franklin Avenue would have to be two cars long. The platforms are 170 feet long and cannot accommodate anything longer than two 75-footers.
David
Urrghh. The problem is without the Manny B Brooklyn BMT routes die. You can't run the system without it. How about this? NO reroutes and just build tracks in the center, close the CAR lanes!
The problem is trains running on the outsides. So close the lower roadway and build tracks there, three tracks. New routes: B and D would run as usual on 6th ave, Q would use Broadway Express from 63rd street tunnels then resume it's current route after Dekalb, while N would use the third track and run Broadway express, rush hour direction only.
Meanwhile during the construction trains use either side of the bridge, while 3 tracks are built in center.
Once center tracks open, roadway is built on outer portions of bridge where trains used to run. Of course you got DOT red tape and also the general favoritism for cars over trains. I say the cars should be inconvenienced, since more people ride over on trains than go over the MB
carry more people than cars do.
YES !! BAN THE CARS !!!!!!
Maybe if enough people with cars are inconvienced for a long enough period of time they will realize that the subways will be better.
Then wait until the subways can't handle the extra passengers and the city dies.
And Single Track too, is it not?
Only Fulton st. / Park Place. Prospect Park techically has 2 tracks for the shuttle, even though they only use one.
Does Prospect Park have longer platforms,
or room for temporary extenisons?
I just looked at the track maps again. While some service would go into Franklyn, I think the better course of action would be to join the bridge line to the Rutgers Tunnel just north of YORK Street, and get some of that traffic into Manhattan. That line is under used anyway. Besides, unless the bridge actually falls down, there will be time to make such connections before it is closed.
Elias
Unless the bridge actually falls down, we're not getting a new one. A Rutgers connection as well as a connection from the 6th ave lines to the Nassau st. line has been suggested before.
I think that the D should run into Essex st. via Christie, and reverse down Nassau thru Montague to Bklyn (thus keeping 6th ave express and only one D line). BTW, it has been done before.
That option is only really viable during non-rush hours, because of the amount of time it takes to change direction east of Essex Street.
They'd be better off building a spur off the Nassau Street line between the Canal and Bowery stations to connect with the Chrystie Street route north of Grand Street. That way you could at least use the Montague Street tunnel for one Sixth Ave. line without reversing direction (though Grand Street would have to be abandoned), while two lines would continue running via Broadway.
Soo. since the trains are the heaviest thing on the bridge and getting them off the bridge may extend its life maybe the only altrnative is to connect with the Rutgers tube as has been suggested, and as much as I hate to see any daylight running lost just build a new rail tunnel under the East River to connect to DeKalb and Broadway and 6th Ave both just as the Manny B does. In addition there won't be the l8 MPH restriction; unless that's changed since I worked there. Easier said than done and I don't think any of our ideas will be implemented but since they know there's an ongoing problem the mpney will have to be spent one way or another. Where it comes from is another story. With a new tunnel and Rutgers there will be capacity for some time into the future.
If they really wanted to solve a lot of problems at the same time, they would start thinking about building another tunnel beneath the East River alongside the Manny B and build the Rutgers Street connection for the B train.
Run the N/Q Broadway express tracks east along Canal past the bridge, connect it up with the D Sixth Ave. express track, turn the track at Canal and Allen street south towards the river, and from there through the tunnel to Brooklyn.
Connect one side of the bridge tracks to DeKalb up with those tracks, and the other side with the new Rutgers connection and you would have capacity pretty much back up to where it was before all the problems started (there would still be three lines using the new tunnel instead of the preferred two, but the tunnel would have slightly more capacity per hour than the bridge tracks do).
After reading all of the possible rerouts, they all can be described in one word-UGLY ! The bottom line, is that the bridge will not collapse any time soon. Despite the humor and misgivings, the bridge is strong enough to handle the weight. In fact, what has done the most damage, has been one sided train loads for all these years.
The real irritating thing is that the DOT should have spent the past 15 years making all of the relevant repairs/modifications, instead of wasting time and playing games with our tax money !
that's true, running the trains on the outside is the biggest problem because it causes the most stress no the bridge. Why not just redo the upper deck, trains in the middle, cars on the outside?
The upper deck has no middle.
okay bum bum I know that and you know that - what i mean was BUILD a new middle on the upper deck and have three tracks there then take the lower middle put three tracks there then convert outsides to vehicular traffic, lower deck car lanes would ALL be reversible (thus ADDING a reversible lane for the car drivers and two subway tracks). then what you do is connect the third set of tracks up to the 6th Ave. Locals, these are only used by the F right now.
Took me a while to figure it out, but I think this is what you're saying:
3 tracks up top + 3 tracks down below = 6 tracks.
6 tracks / 2 tracks per set (one ea. direction) = 3 sets.
Two from the top will go to 6th ave express, 2 from the bottom will go to Broadway, and the remaining 2 tracks will lead to the 6th ave local.
Pretty good, except for a few things:
1. Can the bridge handle the weight of a new section? If it could, the original builders would have put one there for cars, wouldn't they?
2. Provide connections for the Broadway to use both levels, but default to one, and do the same with the 6th ave (defaulting to the other). This way, if a plane drops a toilet onto the upper level (or something else happens to disable one part) the same services could run, albeit reduced.
3. Provide a connection to Nassau st (Just in case).
Voila! With six tracks, you could run two to Chrystie St., two to Broadway, and two to Nassau St. All you'd have to do is restore the connection.
The real question has been brought up: would the bridge be able to bear the weight of additional trains?
Why six tracks?? Stick with the 4 tracks except down the middle. At least you know the bridge can handle the weight of 4 tracks, except it being lopsided. And you wouldn't want the DOT/MTA to devise a plan for that possible problem with the 6 tracks... the completion could take even more years. (my opinion)
While some service would go into Franklyn
Never seen a $100 bill huh?
Yes, a Rutgers-Dekalb connection should figure prominently into an alternative service to the Manhattan Bridge, especially for the B and D lines. With the new connection, the D and Q trains could be sent through the Rutgers tunnels with the F. As for the B, a new connection to the Nassau St Line at Chambers St south of Grand Street could be made. The B would take the M's place through the Montague tunnels
Why not follow this plan;
B-south term WTC
D-rutgers st tunnel,south term rockaway park, extra trains would be Btrains and rockaway park shuttle
J/Z-west end local(Z EXP)
M metro-57/6th extra trains from B/Z
Q 7th ave exp.
The B and D trains to the Rockaways? Why would you wanna do that? Which trains would run on the Brighton Line, the A and C? We should keep the new changes as simple as possible.
yeah i agree but his idea of the J/Z west end is good - although what i really wanna see (no manhattan bridge or not) is the Z trains to Bay Pkwy local (rush hours) and the M trains to 57/6th
Brighton-Q local-ci
Rockaways-A,D-Ds would take rutgers tunnels
B WTC
and C normal
The tunnel is there
imagine brooklyn subway lines not able to go over the bridge. major congestion am and pm rush every day.
OK guys, don't tell me, let me guess. You railfans have given up the ghost for the Manhattan Bridge's continuance as a conduit for the subway trains. That'ss fine. I haven't. I still think the problem of Brooklyn riders from Bay Ridge need the Manny B for a quicker route to Manhattan. I guess I'm a minority of one.
The loss of the Manhattan Bridge might be the best thing that could happen for the Sea Beach. If no trains operated through it, the open cut would become the world's largest tire dump. The cross (at 62nd & New Utrecht) West End line is elevated. It seems one or the other will be sacrificed without the bridge's capacity available; surely the 4th Av tunnel won't be abandoned. From a practical standpoint, "Saturday Night Fever" and "The French Connection" may become memorials to yet another above-ground route removed from the landscape.
Fred,
Don't give up. I'm with you 100%. As far as I'm concerned, I did a lot of research on the subject. This bridge will remain open to subways at all costs, unless a substitute tunnel is built. All of our respective voicers, should understand what's been going on. The bridge is an engineering marvel. It lasted for 69 years of continuous auto and subway traffic, before it's first thorough inspection ! Not bad, for letting something rot for so long. Also, all of the latest excuses for not having both sides open can't hold any of the water in the East River.
If everyone remembers correctly, all of this started in the mid '80's when the north side was closed to replace the tracks. I believe this took 4 years. Both sides were opened again, until the North-side upper roadway needed to be replaced. When this was completed, both sides were opened briefly, then, the upper South-side roadway had to be replaced. Now the bridge is being painted. However, during all of this time, the bridge has been stabilized, and the twisting substantially reduced. It is stronger now, than it was 20 years ago. This is not to say that all the problems are gone, but if it was all right to run the trains, when the bridge was in such disrepair, why not now, after a major overhaul?
Furthermore, all parties involved, agree that the one-sided weight inbalance, continues to cause these problems. If that's the case, then wouldn't having trains occupy both sides of the bridge alleviate this problem? Sounds logical to me.
Thank you for that little history of the Bridge.
I was wondering why the Canal Street station *still* wasn't opened.
(The last subway map that I had was a '94)
So, let us open the Manny B, build that 2nd Ave Subway, and have ourselves a city!
Elias
(During all of this time, the bridge has been stabilized, and the twisting substantially reduced. It is stronger now, than it was 20 years ago.)
My view of the history is different. The bridge keeps cracking. They spend a lot of money to stop it, shut part of the bridge down, and it doesn't work. Then they come up with a new fix, and spend a lot of money again. Good for the contractors. One estimate is that the continuous fix required on the bridge will cost $500 million over 50 years -- after it is "fixed." Another estimate, thrown together in response to a little pressure, is that all you will have to do is keep repainting it.
The only facts we have are that the bridge has been half out of action many more times than expected, and the fix has cost multiples of the amount expected. Full operation keeps being put off. Costs continue to rise. You can't say that the bridge's problem is lack of money. Suddenly, there are a lot less painters working on the bridge -- it seems that contractor has moved people to other jobs. And what needs to be done to the A/B tracks AFTER they were already rebuilt once? Why do trains still inch over the bridge?
I'm willing to give the bridge a chance, but at least the State should have built the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, which would be a life-saver if the bridge were lost, cut the disruption when the bridge is half open, and be useful even if the bridge were entirely closed. But everyone just wants to wish the problem away. Or replace the bridge with a tunnel -- someday.
Larry,
I agree with you, but someone has to find some sort of permanent solution. Switching service around constantly, or(worst case senario)terminating services is not in the best interests of anyone at all. Also, compared to 20 years ago, I do believe that the trains run faster over the bridge.
What do you think, if the MTA ran shorter trains(6 car or 8 car) over the bridge, especially at off-peak hours, like they used to? This can substantially reduce the stress on the bridge. There's no reason for 10 car trains between 11AM - 3PM and 10PM - 6AM.
Who knows with the TA? But I wonder how they handle when the north side closes and south side re-open.
My suggestion is to do the following,
Q-QUEENS BVLD LOCAL, BROADWAY BRIGHTON EXPRESS VIA SOUTH SIDE
-Replaces G on QBlvd, G cut back to Court Square
-from 71st Continental (local) to Broadway Express via 63rd street, via south side Manhattan Bridge to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn via Brighton express
V-NEW QUEENS BLVD EXPRESS
From 179st to 71st/Cont via express, then Queens Blvd express via 63rd st to Grand street, Manhattan via 63rd street and 6th avenue express
T(replaces B in Brooklyn)-71st/ Continental Queens (replaces R in Queens &Manhattan) to Coney Island, via Broadway local, Montague street tunnel, 4th avenue local to 36th.
D-57-7th Manhattan to Coney Island, via Broadway local and Montague tubes, resumes regular route after Dekalb.
B-205/Norwood Bronx to Church avenue Brooklyn via 6th ave express, Rutgers tubes, and Prospect Park express tunnels. Still runs as a local on CPW.
N-Ditmars Blvd,Queens to Coney Island,Brooklyn via Broadway express and MB South side
regular route to Coney Island (via 4th ave express).
A-Increased service to replace D on CPW Express
M-Replaces R Local on 4th avenue, from Metropolitan ave,Queens to 95th Bay Ridge/Brooklyn
via Montague street tunnels
E-Runs local on Queens Blvd, regular route after Qplaza
B riders could take B on 6th avenue and get off at 4th ave and 9th street in Brooklyn and transfer to new T West end line or take T on Broadway local
D or Q riders take Broadway line, or 4 and 5 to Atlantic avenue and transfer to D and Q.
R riders in Queens take E or T to get to Manhattan. In Brooklyn R riders take T instead for all stops to 36th, for all stops south of 36th take M instead.
Note for D northbound riders, take B instead, or for quicker route, take A to 145th street and change for B to 205th Norwood/Bronx.
Well John, I don't know about all your other suggestions, but you must have something on the ball because the Sea Beach runs express and crosses the Manhattan Bridge on the south side as it should and as it did. Congrats! You've got my vote.
So what would happen to the R and F trains
The F train should end at Church Avenue and not clutter the Stillwell Avenue terminal. There are too many trains that go there already, and Coney Island doesn't handle that much traffic anyway---sad to say. The R could still use its same route, but terminate at Queens Plaza. The G and E could handle must of the traffic to Forest Hills and Jamaica, and so, for that matter, could the F train. That's just my t ake on it.
If the F went as far as Kings Highway, what about people at Avenue U, Avenue X and Neptune Avenue? Stillwell Avenue has 4 lines and 4 platforms, if it had any less lines, it would be underused.
Well R would be eliminated (with M serving local stations in Brooklyn, D serving locals in Manhattan, and E and T serving local stations in Queens. Also the Q would also serve local Queens BLVD stations after 63rd street connection. Queens BLVD local service would be improved alot, hopefully getting some people off those expresses.
F trains would possibly have to be cut back, to make room for the D in Rutgers tunnels, but there is ample space for more TPH in the Rutgers.
F and V share 179st but V runs on the currently unused express tracks.
(While some service would go into Franklyn, I think the better course of action would be to join the bridge line to the Rutgers Tunnel just north of YORK Street, and get some of that traffic into Manhattan. That line is under used anyway. Besides, unless the bridge actually falls down, there will be time to make such connections before it is
closed. )
Actually, the window of opportunity to build the Rutgers connection is closing. Today, the area where the connection would occur includes a vacant lot and some industrial buildings. Once the area is redeveloped with high income residential, any such connection would have to survive years of process followed by years of lawsuits, and have to get around extensive foundations, drastically increasing its cost. Absolutely NO ONE is in favor of raising this issue before the redevelopment of the area proceeds.
oh well
Maybe Botanic Garden; a little work and you might get 4 cars out of Fulton st; Park Pl. could be a "First Car Only" station and have the T/O open one door only (like on SIR).
Unless the R-68s are equipped to isolate one set of doors from inside the cab, this could prove to be time-consuming. OTOH, if they could modify four R-12s for use on the Bowling Green shuttle, perhaps a similar modification could be done on the R-68s.
The T/O would have to get out of the cab, and use that key hole adjacent to door 1 or door 16 and open that door. In one direction, the door is close to the cab. In the other direction, the door is all the way at the other end of the car.
...but that a free transfer would be built between the Franklin Ave. Shuttle and the IRT 2/3/4/5 Franklin station
Kind of a waste building something that's already been built in 1999 isn't it?
How's that Brighton Beach Bob? You think that I should have left alone and let him think that there was no transfer there?
No point in that.
If you hadn't spilled the beans, I would have.
ha ha ha. that transfer was badly needed - and not living in new york no i didn't know that they built one last year...
At the risk of grossly oversimplifying this, in actuality, all they had to do was knock out a wall. The provision for a transfer was always there. It was put in when the IRT was extended along Eastern Parkway.
Hey, I don't live in New York and I knew about it. It is a useful transfer -- although the Franklin Shuttle would be much more useful if Franklin Ave. were an express stop on the IND.
I disagree. As a local stop ,it encourages use of the local and disperses or prevents overloading on the express. The three minutes lost to an express is more than made up for by over all comfort and overall time keeping.
avid
Three minutes lost to an express?
I don't care about how long the ride takes; I care about the wait for the train. The C doesn't run very often, and the station is moderately creepy. If it were an express station, twice as many trains would stop there. Headways on the C are about ten minutes most of the day (according to the shortest schedule, they're never less than nine minutes); that's pretty pathetic for what could be a major transfer point.
Now that we are discussing the A/C, what were the IND planners thinking. Two express stops in Bed Stuy (no wonder they run so few Cs)? A local stop next to the Atlantic and Flatbush complex?
The MTA ought to consider routing the E, rather than the C, to Euclid once it has the cars. Brooklyn could use the additional train frequency on the local. True, the C is not crowded, and the A is OK. But I'd bet lots of riders are using other modes to avoid that long wait for a C train, including the crowded IRT. In fact, a news article pointed to free bus to subway transfers as a factor in attracting people to Fort Greene, since they could take a bus to Downtown Brooklyn and transfer, thus avoiding the C.
Provide more frequent service, advertize on alternate routes, and you'll get more Fulton St IND riders.
[The MTA ought to consider routing the E, rather than the C, to Euclid once it has the cars. Brooklyn could use the additional train frequency on the local. True, the C is not crowded, and the A is OK.
But I'd bet lots of riders are using other modes to avoid that long wait for a C train, including the crowded IRT. In fact, a news article pointed to free bus to subway transfers as a factor in attracting
people to Fort Greene, since they could take a bus to Downtown Brooklyn and transfer, thus avoiding the C.]
Is there any reason why more C trains can't be run, rather than changing the E's routing?
(Is there any reason why more C trains can't be run, rather than changing the E's routing?)
I presume that with the B, and low ridership, there are already more than enough trains on the local tracks on Central Park West at rush hour. Of course, with 63rd St open and the A/B tracks closed, a lot could change. They could eliminate express service on the Concourse, run the B to Queens, and run more C trains.
The way the thing was designed, the E should be an express train to Brooklyn, with the C a local to CPW. But that might not be enough service for the local stop at 23rd St.
It seems to me that the CPW local stations are underused in part for the same reason the Brooklyn IND local stations are underused: long waits for the local. Many potential IND riders walk the longer distance to the IRT to avoid the long wait. (And IND local stations tend to be somewhat dingy and depressing, which doesn't help matters.)
Maybe increasing C service would draw passengers to both the Brooklyn and the CPW local sections.
(It seems to me that the CPW local stations are underused in part for the same reason the Brooklyn IND local stations are underused: long waits for the local. Maybe increasing C service would draw passengers to both the Brooklyn and the CPW local sections).
Remember, CPW also has the B during rush hours, which gives 6th Avenue (and a change to the E to East Midtown at 7th Avenue). STILL people don't use it.
Yeah, but everyone on the Upper West Side knows that the B/C comes infrequently while the 1/9 comes frequently. The B and C combined have better service than many lines in the outer boroughs but have poorer service than just about anything else in Manhattan, save the J/M/Z and maybe the N/R, and possibly even the F (which I will avoid if I can help it).
(Yeah, but everyone on the Upper West Side knows that the B/C comes infrequently while the 1/9 comes frequently. The B and C combined have better service than many lines in the outer boroughs but have poorer service than just about anything else in Manhattan).
Perhaps if the TA had the cars, it could run more Cs and see if that were enough to draw people off the IRT. It would mean a longer walk for most, but it might be worth it. If you had, say, 14 C trains plus the B, there would be lots of service on the CPW local to WTC -- the route the IND was designed for. The E could then run over to Brooklyn, replacing the harder merge at Canal with an easier merge at 50th Street.
More cars.
I know many people who would use the E if it went all the way to the Rockaways from Queens Blvd. If the E used the Lower Level at 42nd, the Es would go in a straight line from 50th to 34th st express tracks. Without the Cs merging at Canal, downtown A trains wouldn't have to sit in the tunnel just outside while the switching takes place.
Well, not exactly a straight line. The track to the lower level curves to the right and aligns directly beneath the southbound local track at the platform. Rush hour E trains did in fact use the lower level during the early 70s, but even so, they still had to merge with the mainline sooner or later. From a logistical standpoint, you are correct: running the E via 8th Ave. express would greatly simplify things at Canal St.
(Well, not exactly a straight line. The track to the lower level curves to the right and aligns directly beneath the southbound local
track at the platform. Rush hour E trains did in fact use the lower level during the early 70s, but even so, they still had to merge
with the mainline sooner or later. From a logistical standpoint, you are correct: running the E via 8th Ave. express would greatly
simplify things at Canal St. )
You're swapping one merge for two. As it is, the E (having diverged with the F) has to merge with the C (which has diverged from the B), which then has to merge with the A (which has diverged from the D).
If the E went express, the first merge with the A would be the only merge. You'd need more C trains, however.
That's right, because the C would have to provide all 8th Ave. local service below 42nd St.
You may hear the ear spliting whine of the New Jersey ccommuter as they Wiz and moan about having to go up an extra level to get to the P.A. bus terminal. I beleive there was only one escalator to the mezzenine and two, perhaps three stairs from the lower level to the upper level. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Some stairs were sealed, but I beleive that could be undone.The lower level is a wasted asset.
avid
Perhaps fewer people use the CPW local stops because fewer people live nearer to that line than any other, since not too many people live east of the line in Central Park. Any many of those are wealthy enough to prefer taxicabs, even though I would prefer the train no matter how much money I had.
Is the local service on Fulton St. that bad, though? There is a train every 7-10 minutes most of the time. And once a person gets to an express station there is an A train every 4-8 minutes. That is typical of many lines, like the Concourse line, the Sea Beach Line, etc.
Though I would think rush hour they could have more trains. Maybe half the Rush hour E trains could be extended to Fulton St.
CPW local service is a chicken/egg phenomena. Did a lack of ridership cause the infrequent service, or vice versa? Having just moved from the area recently, I simply don't believe that there's the ridership to support more frequent off-peak service along the CPW local. Certainly not below 110th Street.
The CPW local draws it's ridership from those who live along a one-avenue wide strip of Manhattan -- essentially 70th Street up to 110th Street, east of Columbus Avenue. Those living west of Columbus generally use the IRT. With no commercial development along CPW and limited commercial development along Columbus, there's little reason for non-residents to use the CPW locals.
Given the small number of people with any reason to use the CPW locals and the lack of commercial attractions, one should expect the stations to have low ridership.
Chuck
Keep in mind that the IRT and the IND go to different places. Lots of people transfer from the IRT to the IND at 59th. If local service were improved, some of those people would go straight to the IND instead of jamming up the 1/9.
They essentially go to the same places in Midtown. The IND down 6th and 8th avenues and the IRT down 7th. Downtown, the IRT is superior, since the major destinations other than the WTC require a hefty walk from either WTC or Broadway-Nassau.
While many transfer at 59th, they aren't necessarily passengers who got on along the upper west side.
Chuck
Nobody transfers at 59th to get to Midtown. But south of 14th the IRT and IND go their own separate ways. Anyone going to much of Brooklyn has to transfer at 59th (or at Atlantic). And much of Queens is more accessible from the IND.
"Nobody transfers at 59th to get to Midtown. But south of 14th the IRT and IND go their own separate ways. Anyone going to much of Brooklyn has to transfer at 59th (or at Atlantic). And much of Queens is more accessible from the IND."
Agreed. But, how many people from the upper west side are going to Queens or IND/BMT Brooklyn during off-peak hours? Certainly not enough to justify anything more frequent than the current 10 minute headways on the C.
I can't give you an exact number, but the crowds that get off the 1/9 at 59th and proceed downstairs to the IND aren't tiny.
They had enough of a challenge threading the Fulton St. line through the maze of existing lines converging at Atlantic Ave. Besides, I'm willing to bet there was no Fulton St. express service at all in the early years of that line, so having a local stop at Lafayette Ave. didn't matter. As for the two express stops in Bed Stuy, both were built in anticipation of intersecting Second System lines which never became reality.
One thing about this line puzzles me: Why is it the A has three different southern terminals when there's a perfectly good other letter (C) terminating at Euclid Ave, only a few short stops from the A's Lefferts Blvd terminal. Wouldn't it be a trifle less confusing to have the C (or E, if that is the train that ends up going to Euclid) terminate at Lefferts while all A's go to the Rockaways?
Yes.
2 reasons why this isn't the service plan used. One is that the Lefferts Blvd. spur riders would bitch about the loss of express service. Second, this would require more cars, with a significant increase of service on the Rockaway line from Rockaay Blvd. to Broad Channel, and a longer C route.
Personally I would prefer if A service remained the same (half to Far Rockaway, half to Lefferts), but half the C trains went to Lefferts and half to Euclid to attempt to restore a reasonable frequency to Lefferts Blvd. It must be frustrating to live in a heavily populated area of Queens and get a train every 15 minutes, when the whole rest of the city gets at least 10 minute service most times.
Yes, the current service plan screws those who use the A to Lefferts. Daytime service at 20 minute headways might be aceptable to the lower population densities out in Rockaway, but not in Richmond Hill.
BTW, it's my personal belief that the MTA killed thru C service to Rockaway Park and replaced it with a shuttle so as to be able to shut this line down at a later date, when ridership falls enough to justify it. Exhibit A, the Culver Shuttle. Exhibit B, the 3rd. Ave shuttle in the Bronx. I rest my case.
The Rockaway branch should get the greater headways, because of the Airport.
I agree, as I mentioned numerous times in the past 20 minute wait at JFK/Howard Beach on a Thursday at 2.00PM is too long. There must have been 50 people getting on the train, and 50 who got off the SB A to go to JFK, and a lot with luggage(Foreign Tourist mostly)
The other problem is that Lefferts Blvd. personnel are bombarded daily with confused tourists wondering why the A train they just got dumped off of didn't get them to the airport.
To which the answer should be to go downstairs and take the Q-10 bus, which will cost an extra fare but will do the job just as well, and save them from having to double back all the way to Rockaway Blvd. In fact, the Q-10 bus to JFK should be part of the conductor's announcement as the train enters the station because of all the people who take the wrong A train.
Because most of them are Foreign Tourist who can not read or Speak English, This would be a good idea to use a number after the A Like as follows. A-1 Far Rockaway A-2 Lefferts. A-3 Rockaway Pk and do it to every line that has more then one terminal
What's the different between running an A-1 train (in name if not performance) and putting a sign at Lefferts for the Q-10 bus with a pictogram of an airplane next to it, similar to the late, lamented Train to the Plane? Assuming the foreigner's language is listed on The Map, and they know what a plane looks like, it wouldn't be any more confusing than having to try and explain to Brooklyn and Manhattan riders there's no difference in the three A trains unless you go to Queens.
In every foreign city I have ever been to, any train station with a connection to the airport has that rectangular Plane picture sign. I agree wholeheartedly.
People will think its the free shuttle, and try to get on without paying. Also, not a good idea to let tourists wander the streets of that neighborhood...
> ...the Q-10 bus, which will cost an extra fare...
Not if they have a Metrocard!
Unless they have a SingleRide.
What IS up with that anyway, I can understand not giving subway to bus x-fers to discourage use, but why would anyone want one when a token lasts forever (or at least until the next fare hike) and a SingleRide works for only two hours. And why can't they return the ticket on a bus and encode a transfer instead of having the driver issue one? It must certainly be interesting getting a transfer for a SingleRide, since the display says TRANSFER OK and the bus driver isn't supposed to give transfers for transfers.
Which would be even more of a reason to put up signage at Lefferts Blvd. directing people to the Q-10 bus who had been planning to go to Howard Beach but got on the wrong A train.
The TA really doesn't care about servicing the airport. They had their choice and blew it.
The TA really doesn't care about servicing the airport. They had their chance and blew it.
"The TA dosen't care about servicing the airport. They had their chance and blew it"
Which is stupid with a capital U! Can you imagine how much their ridership would have increased if a subway (take your pick-E,A, or whatever) went directly to the airport?
And then it would have--I know this idea is offensive to the PA--served the area residents as well!
Andrew
No, I think they made the Rockaway Park service a shuttle to save on rail car use and on labor costs. By having the two sets of passengers merge at Broad Channel into one train, they save possibly two trains per shift. And I'm sure the Rockaway Park shuttle doesn't have 8 75' cars. But they could at least have an extra shuttle alternating between Euclid and Lefferts to give proper service to that area.
Pretty good, except for one small thing you neglected:
Queens blvd. riders would be PISSED beyond description at loosing direct access to 8th ave (E) and Lower Manhattan (E,R), for seemingly no reason (Manny B doesn't affect any of their lines!).
The E should stay right where it is, and instead run a new line from 57th / 6th to Church Ave.
You could run limited R service to Whitehall, but that would mean B,Q,N,R all sharing 2 tracks bet. Canal and Whitehall. City Hall lower level could be used as a terminal for the R, but there would be the same 4 lines at Canal. Canal st. Bridge station could be used for the R terminal, but that would require trains to swap (B'Way Exp-Local) just N. of Canal. Solution: Spend a couple bucks and slap some track on the already existing connection from the 63st line to the B'way local. Run the B and N local, and the Q and R express. Weekends, with the reduced headways the R could run thru to 95st.
There are scissor switches between the Broadway local and express tracks already in place south of 57th St. in both directions.
Yes, but the connection will allow the B to go directly into the local track, without having to merge, if even for a brief moment, with the R express. To avoid that, the R would have to come in on the local, thus having one express and one local on each track (which would be a tad confusing for the riders.) Also, what if an R and B arrived at the same time. Wasted seconds would occur while one crosses in front of the other.
A few years ago, when the Rutgers connection was being studied, the East River Crossing planners printed up their study including tables of all four bridge scenarios (fully closed, one side or the other open, fully open; all with and without the Rutgers connection. On the low cost no construction alternative, bridge fully closed, they listed:
A 207-Euclid.*
B Shuttle CI-Pacific
C Bedford Park [now 168th]-WTC
D 205-34
E Jamaica-Lefferts & the Rockaways
F same, 15TPH
M Metro-Chambers
N, R same, about 8 TPH each
Q CI-57th, exp on Bway; 12 TPH
S Brighon Beach-Franklin, 7 TPH (no exp. on Brighton)
V Coney Island-179th via Culver & 63rd, 15 TPH. (No exp. in Bklyn, though)
If Rutgers is built, only the Q would use it, and the space freed in the tunnel would be given to a second Brighton train, called "D", which would go to Astoria with the N. the West End would still be a shuttle
*(ACE switch) This is so passengers transferring at Franklin could have more frequent service with full car trains. Of course, what good is this when Brighton riders would only be able to reach it by a 2 car shuttle that will only be able to run trains per hour because of the single tracking. Although it does look like they left it possible to extend the 2nd track back to Franklin, in case of a long term closure, or if ridership demands it in the future. Most of the ROW is still clear, and on the structure. The biffest problem is at Park Pl, but even there it looks like you could remove the bridge to the station house and part of the ramp to Propspect Pl and squeeze the track through. Perhaps entry to the station could be from beneath the platform, since part of the station house is on street level, and perhaps they already left provisions for a tunnel passageway under the trackway. Otherwise, you could simply go over and down onto the platform. Most of the platforms look like they could be extended also, except the n-bound Botanic Gardens Platform would have to have a stone utility room in the rear demolished.
Any honest discussion would include telling people who have jobs in Manhattan, or plan to have jobs in Manhattan, to move out of Brooklyn if they can. People will be jammed in like sardines, and unable to get off the platforms, until enough move out. The multiplier effect of their lost incomes on local commercial activity would be equally devastating. Some sections of Brooklyn would become a social landfill within four years -- long before a replacement for the bridge is to be completed.
Since a total collapse of the bridge is unlikely, polticians will suddenly promise to "fix the bridge" and keep patching like crazy -- with continuous disruption -- so people don't understand that things won't get better. When a recession hits, the city will no longer be able to afford this, and things will shut down.
Some time ago, I used to think of the idea of just making both Montague tubes the same direction, but there was absolutely nowhere to lay up trains in either direction. But now I just remembered the new B division yard in Sunnyside they are planning. Trains from Brooklyn can just go into the layup yard and not have to return.
The N and R from Queens would go to Canal, and perhaps open up the lower lever of City Hall, to avoid delays from emptying the trains at Canal, and some trains would go to Whitehall and turn on B1 and B3 (west and middle, and return to Queens) (switch required to connect B1 and B2 north of station). N, R and possibly the Q from Brooklyn would run on B2, northbound. M and two new lines replacing B and D would wrong rail on B1, and switch to Nassau St. A switch would be needed between the junction with the layup tracks and the Broad St. station. Brooklyn trains would continue north on R2, and J/Z would turn on R1 at Broad St, using the existing switch to the north of the station. M from Queens would terminate at Chambers.
If this is really long term, it would be a good time to connect the Nassau line with Grand St. as people suggest. Southbound B & D would probably also have to terminate at Chambers, possibly bumping the M back to Canal. (or up 6th Av. as was suggested in this thread.)
Shuttles would run on each of the three Southern Div. lines to provide southbound service. They would terminate on the bridge approach tracks. (double crossovers required between H1&2 and A3&4) (perhaps even reopen Myrtle as a n.bound dropoff station) Switches would need to be built between F4 and F3, and F3 and B1 between Pacific and DeKalb for the northbound trains to access B1 without interfering with shuttles returning on F1. The Brighton (A4/B2) would be harder to connect to B1 before the tunnel. You could wrong rail on A3 between Prospect and DeKalb, but then you would have to direct southbound passengers to the 2345 or C to the Franklin line (which would be upgraded) as Atlantic and 7th Ave. stations would also lose southbound service.
This way, you have all the current levels of Manhattan bound capacity (2 Manhattan bound tracks; all 6 services-- three on each track), and without disrupting Queens service to Manhattan too much. (Only Manhattan to Brooklyn on those lines would be affected. Perhaps some sort of bus service could pick up some of them.)
So as I understand it, a big part of the problem is that the two tracks, being on the outer ends of the Manhattan Bridge, run unevenly, and thus put uneven stress on the bridge. OK. Then don't you think the practice of having only set of tracks open at a time durring very, very long term construction makes things worse, not better? Especially since the southern tracks have been closed much, much longer than the northern tracks were?
(Then don't you think the practice of having only set of tracks open at a time durring very, very long term construction makes things worse, not better?)
Sure it does. And the way things are going, by the time one set of tracks is fixed, the other needs to be closed and replaced. This could go on indefinately. Infrastructure Vietnam.
The north side (B/D/Q) tracks have seen much heavier use for years. Prior to Chrystie St., the south side tracks, which were tied into Nassau St., were used primarily during rush hours, and even then most trains which did use them were deadheading. Meanwhile, the north side tracks had trains on them 24/7.
(The north side (B/D/Q) tracks have seen much heavier use for years. Prior to Chrystie St., the south side tracks, which were
tied into Nassau St., were used primarily during rush hours, and even then most trains which did use them were deadheading.
Meanwhile, the north side tracks had trains on them 24/7.)
Hence my solution. Build a connection from the A/B tracks to the Rutgers tunnel. Build a connection from the Nassau Loop south of Chambers to Grand Street (outer platforms, merge north of the station). Make out service though the tunnels 24/7. Meanwhile, use the whole bridge only during rush hours.
How about tying the former bridge connection from Chambers St. to Grand St?
(How about tying the former bridge connection from Chambers St. to Grand St? )
It could be used. It would be slower.
July 26th, 2000
This is NOT a good plan. Brighton Line riders prefer local trains
that go directly to Midtown Manhattan. Bay Ridge Riders also want
the same thing. Always remember the 1995 changes. This is a better
plan when the Manhattan Bridge completely closed, and the 63rd Street
Connection is opened:
(B)Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx (Weekdays 6am-12midnight)
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (Weekends 6am-12midnight)
West 4th Street, Manhattan (12midnight-6am daily)
Grand Street, Manhattan (All Times)
(Express in Queens)
(C)168th Street, Manhattan
Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn
(6am-12midnight daily)
(D)205th Street, Bronx
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(Via F route West 4th Street to Coney Island, running express Jay
Street to Church Avenue all times.)
(E)Jamaica Center-Parsons-Archer, Queens
World Trade Center, Manhattan
(All Times, local in Queens 12midnight-6am daily)
(F)179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times. Local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn.)
(G)Court Square, Queens
Church Avenue, Brooklyn (All Times)
(M)Metropolitan Avenue, Queens (All times)
Myrtle Avenue, Brooklyn (Evenings, nights and weekends)
Chambers Street, Manhattan (Weekdays 9am-3pm)
Broad Street, Manhattan (Rush hours)
(N)Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times. Local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn)
(Q)179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times, via Montague Street Tunnel, express in Queens and
in Manhattan from 57th Street to Canal Street. Local in Brooklyn.)
(R)71st-Continental Avenues, Queens (6am-12midnight daily)
36th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn (12midnight-6am daily)
95th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn (All Times)
(S)Franklin Avenue-Fulton Street, Brooklyn
Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(All Times. Local on the Brighton Line)
(T)Pacific Street, Brooklyn (6am-12midnight daily)
36th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn (12midnight-6am daily)
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times)
(V)179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
2nd Avenue, Manhattan
(Weekdays 6am-12midnight)
Mr NYC,
Just a little correction. "N" riders loathe the local service.
Does that mean the Brighton Line will only have Local Service in Brooklyn?
Does that mean the Brighton Line will only have Local Service in Brooklyn? the Q? Only
Yeah, basically. Because of the limited capacity Shuttle reconstruction, they can only run 2 car trains on 7 minute headways, and this is not enough to have as the only local so the Q can go express. (there is not enough space to run another service through the tunnel. If the closure is permanent, then there are provisions for the shuttle to be upgraded. (room to reinstall 2nd track & extend platforms with some work.)
What thy could also do is install switches so the four bridge leads could be used as turning pockets, and short services could terminate at the DeKalb bridge track (A4
The 1995 plan was barely adequate for midday and weekend service. It would be totally inadequate for rush hour operation. If the bridge ever had to be closed, you better find an alternative to any subway if you live in southern Brooklyn.
Apropos of nothing, really, I was thinking yesterday about what the subway was like back in 1975. I was in school in Connecticut at the time and hadn't ridden the subway in several years. My next rides didn't come until the middle 1980's. At any rate, I was trying to think of what cars were running on the subway 25 years ago. Here is what I've come up with:
IRT: R-12, R-14, R-15, R-17, R-21, R-22, Redbirds.
B Division: R-1/9*, R-10, R-11**, R-16, R-27/30, R-32, R-38, R-40, R-40M, R-42, R-44, R-46***.
* = the R-1's and R-4's might have been gone by 1975.
** = redesignated R-34.
*** = at least the first few.
The R-6/7/7A/9 were gasping out their last breaths back in 1975. Your lineup seems to be about right. I didn't see any quantity of R46 until 1976. The test train was around in 1975. Almost every single car was plastered with graffitti and the subway was an extremely depressing place.
wayne
Indeed it was depressing. Especially for those who loved the system from childhood on, were happy when they got a job on the system, and watched it go to h---. The roster was pretty accurate; of course you're right about the R46, and the last R9 ran in March l977, but then the numbers were few. They were still very much about in l975.
I graduated from Cheshire High in 1975 (has it really been 25 years?) and did not set foot on the subway at all that year. It wasn't until July 28, 1976 that I would do so again - very briefly - after a 2 1/2-year absence. I saw the 75-footers for the first time on the A; don't know if they were R-44s or R-46s. The following year, my visits to the city picked up somewhat, as did my subway riding, and I found myself on the IRT more and more. On the whole, it was repulsive with all the graffiti.
Recently, 4 DC Metrorail stations have their name changed.
Addison Road-Seat Pleasant (formerly Addison Road)
Grosvenor-Strathmore (formerly Grosvenor)
Mt Vernon Square/7th Street Convention Center (formerly Mt Vernon Square-UDC)
U Street/African American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo (formerly U Street-Cardozo)
Both the State of Maryland and District of Columbia paid for the name changes.
If a NYC subway station name is going to be changed, what is the whole process? Does NYC government like DC and Maryland pay for the change?
Chaohwa
The most recent NYC Transit station name change is the Station Currently Known As "Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd" (formerly just "Van Wyck Blvd"). It's still a misnomer, since there is no Van Wyck "Boulevard."
That change was requested by the community, ostensibly out of local civic pride (but probably with an ulterior motive). So far, only the platform column signs have been changed - at NYCT expense. When the station comes up for rehab, the "Briarwood" component will be integrated into the mosaic tiles.
What would the ulterior motive be?
07/16/2000
[When the station comes up for rehab, the "Briarwood" component will be integrated into the mosaic tiles.]
Van Wyck Blvd/Briarwood is a fairly new station. I don't see a rehab for many moons!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, new as in 1936. Are you thinking of the 1988-vintage Jamaica-Van Wyck (home of the ugliest orange tiles ever)?
They'll have to do some creative mosaic work to integrate "Briarwood" into the pattern. And when they DO the rehab, they'd better change the pillar color from battleship grey AND they'd better leave the color family YELLOW.
wayne
Well, at 63rd drive we go thru a pillar color change almost every year! I actually don't know what the current color is, and it's MY STOP! I think its blue. Before it was yellow, then red, then blue, then yellow again... or was it red, yellow, red, blue? Or yellow, blue, red, yellow? I know we mirror Elmhurst ave in pillar color, and are (usually) inverse to 67th ave (when we're yellow they're red).
Steinway Street (Queens IND) went from mustard yellow (yuck) pillars to a nice blue-violet, more in line with the station-should-be-modeled-in-the-colors-of-the-nearest-express-stop-to-chambers-street, the original design intention, in this case the express stop in question being Queens Plaza.
07/16/2000
When chasing the R-142A on the #6, this is rather easy since the line goes only far south as Brooklyn Bridge. But the R-142 runs on the #2 and runs south into Flatbush Ave. Brooklyn.
So I downloaded at tentative schedule for both trains here from SubTalk as provided by FDNY (Sun June 4). I really need to know for the #2 using 34th St/Penn Station as a rough mid point the following:
1) Approx. running time from 241st St/WP Rd to Penn Station ( XX minutes).
2) Approx. running time from Flatbush Ave. to Penn Station (XX minutes).
example- When the southbound #2 (R-142) leaves 241st St at 1025AM, what time should it reach Penn Station.
This way if I arrive at Penn and I check my schedule, I can determine when and where I can track down the R-142. If you miss the train, you'll have to chase it all the way to Flatbush or 241st St. Anybody out there well versed on running times?
Bill "Newkirk"
1) Approx. running time from 42nd Street to Flatbush Ave.
According to "Subway Lives" the one-way trip from
42nd Street to Flatbush was 45 mins... 90 mins.
if roundtrip..
Based on that information as posted, the running time from 42 St to 241 St/WP Rd is 48 minutes; from 42d St to Flatbush is 40 minutes. 34 St/Penn is obviously two minutes more from 241st and two minutes less from Flatbush. Easy!
I tried to ride the R142s on the #6 and the #2 on Sunday afternoon July 16, but the trains did not appear at the times shown. I realize they were probably OOS - but does anyone know if the 142s ran yesterday? Indeed the schedule was perfect - #6 appeared and #2 appeared exactly as shown, but both were redbird equipment.
07/18/2000
Thank you (1)South Ferry(9) and Andy for your help.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had a schedule and went R142 hunting on the #2 Monday but did not see any.
My daughter was watching TV this evening when I came inside and it just happened to be at a commercial for the Olds Aurora. One scene in the commercial (obviously done with computer-manipulated graphics) shows the Aurora running along an elevated RR with extremely sharp curves. It looked to me like Chicago (the car passed through a station with a visible station name sign but I couldn't read it) but I'm not sure; has anyone else seen this commercial and if so can you identify the location?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've seen the commercial and I felt on first sight that it is indeed Chicago. I could be wrong but I'd almost swear to it.
Definitely Chicago. Closest el to Detroit I guess. :)
Greetings, all...
Being the first one of the group to return to SubTalk after spending all day riding the T with some fellow SubTalkers, it is my honor to give a rundown of all that we did and saw:
After meeting with Nick C., Doug, Thurston, Bill and Lou at Park Street, we took one of the older Red Line trains down to Ashmont to ride the Mattapan trolley. Our train was held up at Fields Corner for a few minutes because of a "police action" at Ashmont, and when we finally arrived at Ashmont, some guy was being led away from the station in handcuffs.
We grabbed the restored PCC trolley out to Mattapan, and got some photos of the other trolleys at the end of the line. On the way back to Ashmont we stopped for a bit at Capen Street to get some photos of the trolleys at the grade crossing.
Back at Ashmont, we caught one of my beloved Bombardier 01800's and took it up to Porter Square to check out the long escalators and the open-vault design of that station. One of the older Red Line trains brought us back into Downtown Crossing where we transferred to the Orange Line.
We took the Orange Line all the way down to Forest Hills and checked out the old Green Line trolley loop, on which service has been "temporarily suspended" for the past 14 or so years. The tracks were in pretty sad condition, and the single-point switches were inoperable (we tried). We followed the tracks along Morton Street to the site of their former yard, where we caught a glimpe of a PCC trolley sitting at the very far end of the property. Walking down along the street, we found there were actually three old PCC trolleys sitting near the fence, all of which had been abandoned for some time and were badly deteriorated. The first one was obviously a wreck victim; the entire front end was pretty well smashed in.
Back at Forest Hills, we grabbed an Orange Line train to North Station, where we took a look at the new Green Line platforms under construction before walking over to Quincy Market for lunch. Along the walk we got a pretty good look at the massive Big Dig construction.
After lunch, Nick had to leave us because of a prior social engagement (no excuse!). We grabbed a Blue Line train at the Aquarium stop, which is another subway station involved with a massive construction project: At the inbound end of the station, the station ceiling and tunnel walls and ceiling have been cut away and open to a huge hole leading all the way to the suface. (It used to be open to the sky, but the top of the hole has recently been decked over.)
We boarded an outbound Blue Line train and listened to the A/C units momentarily shut off during the power switchover between third rail and cantenary at the Maverick station. We took the train all the way to the end of the line at Wonderland and then back to Government Center.
At Government Center, we boarded a Green Line "D" train to Riverside, and got some photos of the huge yard and maintenance facility at Riverside, including a fews shots of the star-crossed Breda Type-8's.
On the return trip, we disembarked at Reservoir and planned to catch a "C" train back to the hotel where Doug, Thurston and Lou were staying. On the short walk between the Reservoir and Cleveland Circle stops, we were lucky to witness an equipment move from the "B" branch down the non-revenue tracks along Chestnut Hill Avenue and into the yard. Just before pulling into the yard, we watched as the operator got out of the train and manually operated a single-point switch in the middle of the street.
After a couple more photo shoots at Cleveland Circle, we boarded a "C" train back to the hotel at St. Mary's Street. We spent the next hour or so at the hotel taking a breather before heading back out onto the rails.
From the hotel, we decided to explore the Braintree branch of the Red Line, so we grabbed the Green Line at St. Mary's (incindetally, we ended up on the same Boeing LRV car with the unusual seat cushions that was mentioned here on SubTalk not too long ago) and transferred to the Red Line at Park Street. The outbound trip was rather uneventful on an older Red Line train. It was dark out by the time we arrived at Braintree, with some fog and a light mist in the air.
Instead of catching that same train back inbound, we decided to wait around a bit to see if the next train would be one of my pet Bombardier 01800's. Sure enough it was, and even better, we were able to cap off the day in the best possible way: The motorman opened up the cab door and talked with us as we were treated to the ultimate railfan view for the entire ride back into Downtown Crossing. YESSS! I had my head inside the cab and was looking over the motorman's shoulder during most of the ride, and had to be careful not to drool on the controls. Thank you, Red Line motorman! We gave him the URL of this website, so we just may even have a new SubTalker among us soon.
Downtown Crossing came much too soon, but by this point the day was getting late and we were in dire need of some food. After Doug was forced to pick me up and physically carry me away from the Bombardier cab door, we grabbed the Orange Line up to the North Station stop and headed into the North End for some pizza. We walked under the temporary Green Line el tracks on our way to the North End, and listened as a couple Green Line cars loudly squealed their way around the tight curve on the el just inbound from North Station. Being a homesick Chicagoan, this was music to my ears!
We finally found a nice little pizza place, and after a short while, Bill had to leave us in order to catch the last commuter train out to where he was staying.
After dinner, the remaining four of us walked back down to the Green Line el at North Station, and took some photos of this soon-to-be-demolished last piece of el in Boston before taking the Green Line back into Boylston where we would transfer to the "C" line.
Sitting up front, the operator overheard us talking about various railfan stuff, pulled the curtain back and asked if we planned on stealing the car's builder's plate. Turns out this operator was a huge railfan himself, and has been a longtime member of the Seashore Trolley Museum. He had even gone to school with Bill Poleman's (sp?) father. (Bill Poleman is the guy at Seashore who seems to have "adopted" the R-9's and is doing the bulk of the restoration work on them.)
We got off at Boylston and took a few photos of the old wire maintenance car parked off to the side before catching a "C" branch car. By this time it was about 11:30 PM, and time to call it a night. Lou, Thurston and Doug got off at St. Mary's, while I stayed on until my stop at Tappan Street.
What a "wicked pissah" field trip! I enjoyed the opportunity to operate a trolley up at Seashore, as well as meeting up with a few fellow SubTalkers for the first time. I'd love to be able to do some restoration work up at Seashore -- possibly on the SOAC's or the CTA 6000's -- but right now I'm not sure if I'll have the time to spare once school starts for me. I'm also looking forward to the upcoming Coney Island tour in three weeks; it's been much too long since I've had my latest New York subway fix. Cyclone and Nathan's, here I come!
That's my story and I'm sticking with it... Anybody else who was with us today, please fill in anything I may have missed. Thanks to everybody involved for a very cool weekend!
-- David
Boston, MA
The Nth Ward
Dave,
What time did you leave? I arrived at Park St. at 10 AM...did I just miss everyone? -Nick
Didn't leave until almost 10:50ish. We were running late coming down from Maine. Send Doug BMT Man ahead as we checked in and stored baggage at our hotel.
A full trip report with car numbers and such will be pending from Doug, Thurston and Myself as well as photos and trip report about Seashore as well. AND a stop at both LIRR musuems (Greenpoint/Riverhead) but they were not open (got a great shot of a new engine next to old baggage/pax combine).
Right now catching up on 200emails and my wife who is upset that I was gone4 days and I am now in front of the PC >G<.....
[Right now catching up on 200emails and my wife who is upset that I was gone4 days and I am now in front of the PC >G<.....]
So, the bottle of Pindar 'Summer Blush' didn't help????
For shame!
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Update On Phoenix Street Railway System
& Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport Peoplemover.
Planners puzzle over rail routes
By Mary Jo Pitzl
The Arizona Republic
July 13, 2000
Give us the tax, Phoenix officials said during this spring's transit campaign, and we'll lay tracks.
With a voter-approved tax now in hand, planners are finding that locating electric rail tracks isn't as easy as drawing a line on a map.
Alignment issues are cropping up from east to west along the 12-mile route that will run from ChrisTown Mall to the Phoenix-Tempe line. They include:
• How to connect with Sky Harbor International Airport. Plans call for track to run near the airport, with a shuttle-bus connection to the airport. But some say that plan is folly, that the rail line should connect directly to the airport's terminals.
• Whether to run the rail east out of downtown along Van Buren Street or put it slightly to the south, along a Washington-Jefferson street alignment.
• Whether to use 15th Avenue or 19th Avenue to connect Camelback Road to the ChrisTown area.
Meanwhile, Sky Harbor officials are planning their own train, a "people mover," that will run a 3.7-mile, partially underground, circuit at the airport. Estimated cost is $200million a mile because of tunneling.
The people mover also could hook north to pick up rail passengers at a 24th Street transfer station; although initially, the connection would be made with shuttle buses, said John Solomon, senior assistant aviation director.
The rubber-tired train will be computer operated, and its first link is planned to open in 2005. Why not just run the rail line through the airport and avoid building two systems?
"There's a huge problem with that: Five stops," Solomon said, saying stops would be needed at each of three terminals, as well as the east parking lot and a planned car-rental center on the airport's western side. Those stops would chew up time as airport passengers loaded and unloaded luggage.
*'Can't figure out'
"We can't figure out how to make it work," Solomon said. "Our system needs to serve the airport. Their system needs to serve a much larger constituency."
Nonsense, former Mayor Terry Goddard says.
He envisions an electric train pulling into the basement of Terminal 4 and dropping off passengers before speeding on its way. As mayor, he ensured that Terminal 4 included an underground tunnel for future rail use.
"The one, high-volume, people-moving destination in this Valley is Terminal 4," Goddard said.
To force airport-bound travelers to transfer at 24th Street will only deter transit use, he said.
Don Keuth, president of the Phoenix Community Alliance, said he has no problem with a 24th Street drop-off for the airport.
He's heartened by plans to turn the station into a minicheck-in gate, where airport passengers could check their luggage, get their boarding passes and be shuttled to the airport.
Solomon said airlines are reluctant to staff yet another gate and risk a delay in getting bags delivered to the plane.
Phoenix City Councilman Cody Williams and area merchants are pushing to put the rail along East Van Buren Street, from Central Avenue to the Tempe border.
Light rail could give the depressed area an economic boost. Plus, he notes, most of the area population lives north of Van Buren Street, so a more southerly rail location puts transit farther from people.
Sports destinations
Transit planners have long favored a Washington or Jefferson route; the train would run next to major sports destinations at Bank One Ballpark and America West Arena. But they say they are listening to community concerns.
On the rail's western end, planners are mulling whether to lay track in 19th or 15th avenues north of Camelback Road.
Transit planner Marc Soronson said 19th Avenue is a busy transit corridor. But it's also a busy street that relieves Interstate 17. Rail planners won't rob traffic lanes, so they'd have to buy property for rail.
But 15th Avenue is attractive because it wouldn't require a right-of-way purchase: The rail would displace two lanes of traffic, leaving 15th Avenue a two-lane road. That might appeal to neighbors who want to reduce traffic, he said.
*Decision this fall
The Phoenix City Council is expected to decide the rail alignment in October.
One thing for certain is the rail's route down the middle of both Camelback Road and Central Avenue. But exactly how much property rail planners will have to buy, and where, is unclear.
The costly makeover of Central Avenue, done a decade ago, will be retouched. But planners say they will put back anything they have to dig up or pull up, including the pricey pink Italian granite installed in the street's median.
"It's stone, so why can't we reuse it?" Soronson asked.
Light rail construction should start in 2003, progressing in segments. Rail should be operating by 2006. In the meantime, planning will continue in Tempe and into downtown Mesa, the eastern end of the Valley's first light rail venture.
Copyright 2000, Arizona Central
Denver's light rail line wasn't without controversy.
Originally, the Central Corridor was supposed to continue to Five Points along Stout and California Streets. Residents lobbied to have the line run along Welton St. instead. RTD told them it would be a double-tracked line; they wanted a single track so they could have parking spaces along Welton. The end result is a five-block segment of single track with three stops along it. Then, during construction, business owners complained of lost business, etc. Well, duh, what did you think would happen?
Five Points has actually experienced a renaissance since light rail came along. The single track portion has restricted capacity somewhat; however, there is provision for a second track which RTD says can be installed "fairly quickly". If that portion is ever extended, it will have to be double-tracked all the way.
I've spotted a few trains along Santa Fe Drive the past two days, and can see that RTD is being sensible: they're running 3-car trains from Mineral to 18th Street. 2-car trains are the rule from Mineral to 30th Ave.; don't know about the short turn Broadway-18th St. runs. The Broadway Park'n'Ride actually had empty spaces on Monday while the Littleton and Mineral Ave. lots were packed. The Mineral Ave. lot will be enlarged by next month by 425 spaces. That's been the biggest complaint so far - insufficient parking.
Caught it going southbound at 6:44 AM at GCT. Automated announcemenst WERE being made.
So They are running today?!??!??
Trevor
Yes, that's what the man said. Look at the time of his post.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good, Glad to hear it. Since they had 4 days to fix everything it should have no problems.
Trains with automated station announcements isn't anything new. Boston has them, so does Singapore. Expect some kinks to be worked out during the first few weeks. They'll get it right.
--Mark
That should be R-142A, not R-142. Subject line has been corrected.
David
Sorry about my lack of posts here but there is someone I like to avoid and my computer went off the wall. But anyway I'm trying to find the R110B and R142s. R142 on the 6 don't even try that. Lost R110B to FS.
Just restarted? SOmehow, I managed to completelyt garble my HDD so badly even Norton Disk Doctor couldn't fix it! I had to break out the emergency retore disk...lost my bookmarks, lost my cookies, lost 45MB of digital images I had yet to transfer to CD....
-Hank
Lost everything even my Redbird GIF type drawings and PATH PA4 car
In part 12 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Opinion Questions Aboot the Subway I adress the long running debate of Bench seating vs Row seating. With bench seats you get more standing room during peak periods and you can lay down on them. However bums also lay down on them and it is almost impossible to avoid sitting next to someone. With row seats there are more seats, but less overall capacity (for those of you who take a first come first serve, screw the other guy approach to life). Also many ppl would rather stand than share a row seat so you can usually get 2 seats to yourself during all but the most peak times. Row seats also provide a view forward and out the window.
Those are some pros and cons so which type of seating (or combination thereof) would you most want on your subway train or which conbination works best regardless of what is good for you/the railfan?
I'll take the R44/R46. Off peak, the seating arrangement is preferable. On peak, I'm standing anyway.
On peak, you're standing -- but will you fit into the train to begin with?
Give me the sideways-facing seats any day. Sitting is nice, but I prefer to have greater overall capacity. Besides, the windows are cleaner -- they don't have people leaning on them all day.
The only line where getting into the train can be impossible is the Lexington. Elsewhere, it's only a matter of WANTING to get in. Anyway, the Lexington doesn't have a transverse seating problem.
Actually the Queens Bound number 7 can be pretty hard to get into at QBP at rush hours.
I was going to mention that and it got lost in an edit.
And it's still an IRT line anyway.
Yeah, but one stops there every 5 seconds! Even if you have to wait for a couple to go by, by the time you fit yourself onto an outbound '7', your neighbors across the platform will still have been waiting, and waiting some more, for a 'N'ever train to Astoria.
Well the one division B line that does have a real bad crowding problem is the BMT Broadway Line. Even at rush hour it's the (N)ever and (R)arely. Lexington avenue N,R stop is real bad, even at off times. People can't fit in trains, and they don't come often enough.
I never said the N was a picnic because it's not, I'm just saying the E,F lines seem to come more often and in general are more comfortable than the 7.
I guess you've never tried to board a rush hour 2 train, or a 1/9 after the previous ran express. And although I've never experienced it first-hand, I hear the E and F can be pretty rough.
I've always boarded a crush loaded 2 or 3 at Atlantic Avenue. Others decide to wait for the next train, but they're either bigger (not usually) or more likely don't care enough to cram themselves inside.
I've done the same thing on the 1/9 at 59th, I had to get off at 50th to let people get out, and had to hold the doors because the idiot conductor started closing them before everybody was out and I was back in.
In both cases, the trains don't have row seats, neither does the E.
I like the seats on the R-68s, R-46s, etc. With the benches, many people try to squeeze in(making six unhappy people and the seventh person). On R-68s, I have never seen 4 people try to squeeze into 3 seats. R-68s offer better views from side windows but no railfan windows. The windows on the R-32s are too high for comfort(I'm 5'7") compared to R-40 slants. However R-32s and R-40s do have railfan windows.
[However bums also lay down on them]
Seats are designed for you to sit on your bum.
[Also many ppl would rather stand than share a row seat]
I'm certainly not attractive, but ppl don't usually go out of their way to aviod sitting next to me.
[Row seats also provide a view forward and out the window.]
The view out the window is my reason for preferring row seats.
Row seats rule. I prefer the window seats. It's one of the reasons I like the R16, because it provided these on the J line when I was young. I hated the R2730. However, I LOVED the R42, because it was so rare and it was shiny. So goes the mind of a child ...
Definitely row seating. Even if there's no window, its good to have something to rest your head on (only if you have a hat, don't dirty up those windows!) The Philly M4 seating arrangement is my favorite.
Philly M-4 interior(for those unfortunate people who haven't yet experienced the M4).
The Philly M-4 seating arrangement looks like what the CTA L trains had while they still used "blinker" doors (throught the 2200 series cars in 1969, which are still running on the Blue line).
Starting with the 2400 series cars, longitudinal seats were placed by the doors (because of the door motors for the sliding doors).
While the CTA has not gone to bench seating, the most recent cars (3200 series) have 2/1 transverse (row) seating, making for fewer seats and more standee room.
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks for sharing the photo, great shot and I envy the riders of that car. Is it a commuter car or transit car? Thats what the Rar Rock "A" should have for me . Who made it? Where do you park it at night? Does it use 600V 3rd rail or overhead A.C.
avid
Adtranz made it, it runs on the Philadelphia Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated line. It uses third rail, but Metro-North style (contact shoe goes under the rail). The picture is from here, not mine.
Row seats are better. Two seats all to yourself in off-peak service and facing the front of the car and a place to rest your arms. What more could ask for. IRT-style bench seats suck! I wish the MTA kept the seating plan in the R110A when designing the R142s. And Boston's MBTA should do away the crappy bench seating in all of their heavy-rail cars.
On the R-142s I would have liked to have seen the R-110A style seats in the B units, with the standard bench seats against the walls in the A units, where the wheelchair accessable locations are. That would give riders a chance to have front/rear facing seats in six cars on a 10-car train while avoiding any kind of ADA compatability problems with the wheelchairs by allowing for more space in the other four cars.
For me -- I have yet to see anything beat the seating arrangement of a BMT Standard.
Perpidicular type seating is the only way to go. In addition to being able to sit facing foward it helps you avoid the dreaded direct eye contact with other passengers..
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS.....perpindicular
Still wrong
Perpendicular
double OOPS
If you're not sure how to spell a word just go grab a dictionary! Or go to dictionary.com!
"Franklyn", "Perpindicular", give us a break!
I can understand Perpindicular, it's a complicated word, but I'm absolutely SICK of Franklyn. Not only is it a simple word that everyone has encountered, but somehow people think that they should use a more complicated spelling and that makes it correct.
What do you think of "vidieo"?
I know who posts that, and I don't think we can ever fix that, it would require a complex, expensive encephal implantation.
ROTFL
>>> I'm absolutely SICK of Franklyn. Not only is it a simple word that everyone has encountered, but somehow people think that they should use a more complicated spelling and that makes it correct. <<<
I can sure agree with you there. Those same people probably use the more complicated spelling of "Brooklin"
Tom :-^)
Brooklyn is an anomaly, the in sound occurs almost always with an I.
And hasn't anybody learned of Benjamin FRANKLIN?
How about Franklin K Lane?
The greatest high school in Brooklyn!
As much as I like to freely substitute Y's and I's here in Philly it is a crime to spell Franklin with a Y punishable by public flogging.
Or one of my best Java programmers, Frank Lin :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So shoot me!
Peace,
ANDEE
So chute you!!!
LOL
Sew ,chute yew
avid
Tank you. It's unfortunate that some people are so bothered by misspellings that they can't appreciate the intended content of the post. Some people simply have problems with spelling. Take, for example, the gentleperson in question (ANDEE; presumably a nickname for Androo). I can't even spell Choo Choo Bob!!
ROTFLMAO
Piece,
ANDEE
I give up; what's ROTFLMAO?
Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off.
Thanks. I've figured out most of the acronyms used on this board. LOL took a while because elsewhere it meant "little old ladies", which of course we wouldn't use here because it's sexist and ageist. (Also sizeist).
Peace on you.
Bob
I figured out NIMBY last month, LOL came to me in March, and realized today MFSE=MFL.
The founder of the Chinese Communist Party.
Tank Gawd ewe can spell ure nickname any way u pleez.
Piece,
ANDEE
Right, it might be the U.N.I.O.N man in one of his disguises and he never blinks when on a stake out, though he will wink.
avid
perhaps to bring more civility and decorum to subway riding, the seating could be arranged like the pews in a church with the pews arranged perpendicular to the length of the car... i haven't quite worked out how people will move about in the car, but i think the pews would give a solemn air to subway travel... perhaps there will be objections from people who want to keep church and transportation separate, but that will have to be decided by the courts...
I prefer the academia style myself. The lecture hall type seating , forward facing with each following row slightly higher then the one in front of it. Using the slant R/40, and installing tinted one-way see through glass with the train letter also see throughable. The walk way would be on the right side , behind the operaters cab. This would avoid wineing from those who claimed they couldn,t see through the storm door or "letter desiginating window . Lights would dim once the train got under way and into the tunnel. The seats would be theater type that woul fold up to permit eaiser access and egress. This is of course an of the shelf item and should be coming soon. to a train near you.
aivd
How about stadium seating in the front car, facing the r**lfan window, of course. Just a thought. Although I guess that's the same as the academia seating you describe.
Peace,
ANDEE
Great idea, hard folding seats for reduced fare users , seniors and students and maybe service men and women in uniform!
avid
elevated lecture hall seating... wonderful idea... has many additional advantages... beverage cans can roll down to the front, where they may be easily gathered and redeemed... you will be able to look at the back of the heads of your fellow passengers and immediately identify who has an implanted module...
the lowering of the lighting while the train is in motion will save countless megawatts of energy... vendors of hot dogs, ice cold orange drinks, and copies of avid's analysis of human behavior can be hawked down the side aisle...
I estimate three sections per car could be accommodated in your average R/40. However these sections would not have the veiw section "A" would have. They would have to be satisfied with super large flat screen TV. And would suffer through "commercials" at each station. The latest technology would be used and the language of choice would change as the train progressed. Subtitles would serve those unfamilar with the language until the screen filled, at that point everyone would have to leave the trainand the show would start anew.
avid
Are you saying that one will be able to buy a Hot Dog vendor in the subway?
Your idea sounds like Conrail Office Car #9 the "Theatre" car. There is a large picture window in the back and like 5 rows of stadium seats looking out. Above the window is an instrument pannel desplaying speed and brake pipe pressure.
I feel co-opted, used and dirty, I'm so embarassed. I just want to crawl in to a hole and hide.
avid
But who would give the lecture?
You mean something like this? :-)
Seashore Trolley Museum
-- David
Boston, MA
The Nth Ward
Wow, that's even better than a railfan window! Anyone else think the R-142/142A/143/143A orders should be cancelled in favor of those things?
Just don't smile when the car is moving, you'll get bugs in your teeth!!! :-)
Sign of the Happy Motorman! :-)
Cooooooool!!!
I'd pay $1000 to ride that thing down the CPW express, then across the Manhattan Bridge and on the Culver Line to Coney Island. Could you imagine that up on the el at Smith/9th Street stop, complete with fancy railings and carved beavers? lol
-- David
Boston, MA
If they did this, would we have to genuflect whenever the train operator or conductor came out of the cab????
I doubt it. Neither one is God. Now, if the conductor were to announce, "The run is ended. Go in peace." at a terminus, you might be inclined to respond, "Thanks be to God!":-)
OTOH, holy water may not be a bad idea.
But how would you keep the holy water in the fonts when the car jiggled over rough switches!!! :-)
Have faith.:-) You'd probably have to keep it covered.
he train would only stop at Mt Edan ave, Cathedral Pkwy, Christopher St.,Rector St. Church ave and Parsons Blvd.
avid
What about Trinity Place, Church Street, Vestry Street, St. Nicholas Avenue, St. James Place and Convent Avenue?
I will do pennance and add St. George, even if its on S. I.
avid
I think the windows would have to be Stained glass depections of the Stations of the Cross town local. The fare box would be replaced by the Poor box.
avid
Including Court Square and Smith-9th Sts., that makes 16 stations. Throw those two out, and it works. Now, if those stations had BMT-style mosaics....
"Hear ye All passengers: Thou shalt stand clear of moving platform, as train dost enter and leave the station"
I would feel insulted if a public address system referred to me with an informal pronoun, especially since the subject is plural. That's just WRONG.
I prefer the row seats (like on the R44s, 46s, and 68's). More comfortable, and you don't have to worry about being squashed and sliding around like on bench seats.
For the neighborhoods that fall into disfavor with the adminstration, special replacement seating . These would convert the bucket type seating benches from 7 buckets to 9 buckets. The effects would be twofold; greater seating capacity. A plus P.R. for the administration.
Greater inner tension for the riders, after all, more is better.
Hey bub , slide over!
avid
You don't have to worry about being squashed? Sure you do, up against a window with a stranger leaning against you, with no easy escape path.
Row seats and bucket seats are mutually exclusive.
I would prefer row seats with benches like on the old R-110A (although not on the IRT, only on the BMT/IND).
I mean I know you guys live in the subway capital of the world, but you really should consider comming down here and seeing what our little system has to offer. It would really mean a lot to a local guy like me if some big shot NYC subfans could grace out little puny system with their presence.
mike...it might be more than you could handle if some of us came down to philly
Its not a question of me. I think you're just scared to leave the windy apple.
Hey...heypaul: Braaaaawk Braawk Brawk Brawk
Mike,
I hope you're just kidding about that "puny" thing. Be proud!
In many respects, Philly has *more* to offer the connoisseur railfan than New York City. Boston would tie, as far as variety, and San Francisco would be stiff competition, what with its cable-cars and trackless trolleys added to the mix. To wit:
Types of Transit NYC and PHI have in common:
Subways (portions elevated)
Buses
Inter-city (heavy) rail
Commuter (heavy) Rail
"Interurban" Rail (might be stretching the term here, but NYC has PATH & PHI has PATCO)
Types of Transit PHI has the NYC doesn't:
Trolleys!!! (combination Subway-Surface, bonus)
"Suburban Light Rail" (former Red Arrow)
(As a side note, PHI has a rail connection to the airport, which NYC has yet to achieve)
Types of Transit NYC has that PHI does not:
Other than the more pervasive/expansive nature of the rail systems, I can't think of any...)
Hold your head up high, man!
KP
Did you forget to say trackless trolley or trolley buses in PHI?
New York has Katz's. PHI has Gino's.
Yes, I forgot the PHI trolley buses. I just remember seeing more of them in San Francisco than I've seen in Philadelphia. Thanks for pointing out the omission, but it only strengthens my point about the variety of transit in Philly.
Also, I've got nothing against New York. I live there!
Trolleys!!! (combination Subway-Surface, bonus)
"Suburban Light Rail" (former Red Arrow)
The two are the same technology, except for the uniqueness of the Norristown line.
Aren't you forgetting the HBLR and Newark Subway?
And here's something that New York has that Philadelphia DOESN'T: An aerial, cable pulled tramway.
And here's something that New York has that Philadelphia DOESN'T
dry pretzel
[The two are the same technology, except for the uniqueness of the Norristown line. ]
I *was* thinking more about the right-of-way of the Norristown line, being not as much in the streets as the Subway-Surface routes and the other trolleys in Philadelphia, and having elements of subways and commuter rail (3rd rail & platforms) & trolleys (2-car consists, etc.), making it somewhat unique, as you say.
[Aren't you forgetting the HBLR and Newark Subway? ]
Well...no part of these technically touches New York. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against New Jersey, and I have a fondness for all the transit of the region. I've explored both systems often!
[And here's something that New York has that Philadelphia DOESN'T: An aerial, cable pulled tramway. ]
OK. Ya got me there:)
I heard there are plans for an aerial tram between Philadelphia and Camden. Does anyone know more?
They've been planning one for about 100 years now :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Somebody's been talking about it, but I don't remember any details.
Bob
From pennslandingcorp's website:
"Plans are underway for the development of an aerial tram that will traverse the Delaware River and link the Camden waterfront and Penn’s Landing.
The Penn’s Landing terminal will connect directly into the Family Entertainment Center and will land at the second floor of the Please Touch Museum. The tram will function as both an attraction in and of itself, as well as a means to cross the river. The $25 million project is being developed by the Delaware River Port Authority (DRPA), and is being funded by the Federal Government and the DRPA."
It's supposed to start construction this summer and be completed in 2 years. So far, it hasn't started yet. Just what we need - the ferry also serving this market is greatly underutilized, even when events at Camden's E-Centre occur (which is supposed to bring large crowds via ferry and tram).
this aerial tram is crap, what they NEED is a light rail bridge/tunnel/whatever to extend the trenton-camden across the river into philly. maybe even a fourtrack with lrt spokes to other parts of nj
Well...no part of these technically touches New York. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against New Jersey, and I have a fondness for all the transit of the region. I've explored both systems often!
The Norristown Line or the Media/Sharon Hill Lines don't touch Philadelphia either.
Six blocks is close enough for government (or transit authority) work.
But by 2003 Philly will have a tramway across the Delaware so ha.
The DRPA: Wasting your money the old fashioned way.
I agree. There's lots more to Phila than just subway/el and we have many unique things of our own. One question, though - what is the '6th event'?
[One question, though - what is the '6th event'?]
The event taking place August 6th.
OK, at the risk of sounding even dumber, is there anything more definite than the very sketchy 'trip to Phila' mentioned in the events calendar? I wouldn't mind participating to some degree although since I'm already here I wouldn't be travelling from NYC.
Ditto.
Still, it would be nice to see more subway/el or light-rail lines within the city limits of Philly.
Yes I know that Philly has a very diverse transit system, but it really isn't very "deep". I just remember someone saying that the Philly system didn't even qualify as a system. However my post was a devious attempt to sound path-e-tech so that NYC subfans would take pitty on me and come on the trip.
The Philly trip: PLEASE TELL ME IF YOU ARE COMMING!!!!!
I'd really love to, Mike, being a fellow fan of The Standard Railroad of the World and having grown up in PA, but I'm in upstate NY that weekend for a family gathering. Maybe next time. Till then, this rookie gets a weekend on the bench, i.e., it will be nice to temporarily withdraw from my SubTalk addiction and the more veteran SubTalkers nit-picking my posts :-) But I have learned a lot, and I expect I'll learn more on the *next* field trip.
Cheers!
KP
I'd go, (of course via NJT/SEPTA), if a trip is organized. I was planning on going sometime this summer anyway.
I wouldn't mind making my yearly visit, but is there something specific being planned? Suggest an arrival time; I'll do the NJT/Septa connection too. Meet at 10a.m.at 1234 Market Street, assuming the gift shop is open on Sundays. Did I miss a plan posted somewhere or can somebody suggest something??
Joe C
SEPTA 1234 Market St store/museum hours: Mon-Sat 10-4
"SEPTA 1234 Market St store/museum hours: Mon-Sat 10-4"
Oh well!! That's that.
What else is the group doing? And, why on a Sunday?
Again, if this has already been discussed, sorry. I missed it.
Joe C
Its posted on the current events section under Subtalk 5th aneversary trip. On the 5th the Subtalkers are planing a Cony Island tour and on the 6th they were going to come to philly. However if enough ppl want to go on the 5th that fine with me.
Down here around philly the Zone based fare system is king, but it has made me scared to ride any sort of bus or zone using route. First of all I believe that NYC uses a one fare syste, for all of its routes, bus and subway. You get on and ride. Well if they can do it then why not other cities? My personal questions about fare zones are as follows:
1) How does one determine the zone boundaries for any given bus. They are rarely listed in the timetable.
2) What prevents a person from cheating because if nothing does I will have to cheat. What happens if you go extra zones and don't have the money? Do you pay as you enter or as you leave or both?
3) What happens if I like want to go a short distance, but it crosses a zone. Will I get charged for the whole zone even if my ride didn't cover then legnth of a complete zone?
1. On the NJT timetables I checked, there were zone boundaries marked off on a small route map.
the last time i was in philly, an operator explained the zone system to me... it goes by zip code... you must put your starting zip code on the upper left side of your face, and your destination zip code above your lip... when you enter the bus, you must have a 33 cent stamp affixed to the upper right side of your face... each zip code you traverse requires a 22 cent stamp affixed... to discourage sneaky people like you mike, they have fare inspectors who will examine your face to see if you have the right amount of fare affixed... if you are caught cheating, you will be removed from the bus and returned to your originating destination... if you act like the wise guy that you are mike, the inspectors will work you over with a couple of rubber canceling stamps which will help put the fear of septa in you...
Are these postal stamps or special SEPTA stamps.
SEPTA: making your life easier through harassment
On a not completely unrelated note, the taxis in Washington, DC collect (or used to collect) fares based on a zone system. (There was always talk of converting to meters when I lived there in 1994, but I don't know if that got anywhere.) As a resident of DC, you learned very quickly where the zones are, because taxi drivers were notorious for driving unsuspecting passengers across the zone border to collect the extra 2 bucks (or whatever) if your destination was anywhere close to the next zone (although you would be hard-pressed to decifer the zones from the Dr. Seuss-style map posted in the cab). Furthermore, say you got in a cab from a company based in Virginia, like the Red Top Cab Co. It would have a meter. So, you could theoretically end up paying 2 very different fares to get to, say, Falls Church, depending on whether you happened to board a DC cab (where you would have to, I guess, negotiate your fare for going outside DC) or a Virginia cab (in which your fare would be calculated on the meter). I wonder if they still use the zone system for DC taxis.
When did they start letting Virginia cabs pick up fares in DC?
(Oops. This post was meant to be in response to KMA's, above. Sorry...)
I actually never took a Virginia cab in DC, but I always saw them in the District. I guess they were in town to drop off a fare. I assumed they were allowed to pick
up fares there too. If I was a VA cab driver, I'd be pissed if I had to take someone into town without having the ability to collect a fare on the way back to Virginia.
How are people, especially tourists, expected to use cabs in metropolitan DC with these types of restrictions? I live in New York. I stick my hand out, I expect to
get a cab that will take me anywhere in the city. I don't expect to hear: "Sorry, I can't drive you there cause my cab's from Virginia." And everybody knows "the city"
is more than just the District itself. Isn't Washington the capital of a country that values supremely "free enterprise?" Explain this one to me. If that's the rule, then it's
stupid!
(Oops. This post was meant to be in response to KMA's, above. Sorry...)
I actually never took a Virginia cab in DC, but I always saw them in the District. I guess they were in town to drop off a fare. I assumed they were allowed to pick up fares there too. If I was a VA cab driver, I'd be pissed if I had to take someone into town without having the ability to collect a fare on the way back to Virginia.
How are people, especially tourists, expected to use cabs in metropolitan DC with these types of restrictions? I live in New York. I stick my hand out, I expect to get a cab that will take me anywhere in the city. I don't expect to hear: "Sorry, I can't drive you there cause my cab's from Virginia." And everybody knows "the city" is more than just the District itself. Isn't Washington the capital of a country that values supremely "free enterprise?" Explain this one to me. If that's the rule, then it's stupid!
IIRC, it was the rule when I lived there, 25 years ago. It was a well known oddity that the same cab ride would have a much different fare, depending on whether you were going from DC to Va or from Va to DC. The only exception I remember was that DC cabs were allowed to pick up fares at National (and I assume Dulles).
I actually never took a Virginia cab in DC, but I always saw them in the District. I guess they were in town to drop off a fare. I assumed they were allowed to pick up fares there too. If I was a VA cab driver, I'd be pissed if I had to take someone into town without having the ability to collect a fare on the way back to Virginia. How are people, especially tourists, expected to use cabs in metropolitan DC with these types of restrictions? I live in New York. I stick my hand out, I expect to get a cab that will take me anywhere in the city. I don't expect to hear: "Sorry, I can't drive you there cause my cab's from Virginia." And everybody knows "the city" is more than just the District itself. Isn't Washington the capital of a country that values supremely "free enterprise?" Explain this one to me. If that's the rule, then it's stupid!
SHEEESH! Sorry for the triple (now quadruple) post, guys... >:-(
In New York, the cab is required to take you to Newark Airport (not Penn Station) and Nassau and Westchester Counties, no questions asked.
In that case, you pay the face value fare to the border, and double the fare from there, any tolls after the border are to be paid roundtrip.
To Newark, one must pay the $4 toll (even though the toll is not collected westbound) plus a $10 surcharge above the metered rate all the way to the airport.
Other destinations can be reached at the driver's discretion.
If one picks up a cab at Newark Airport, what kind of a cab would it be?
[Other destinations can be reached at the driver's discretion. ]
There's a difference between having special rules governing certain destinations, or having the ability to negotiate a fare, and not being allowed to pick up a fare, period. Which is what KMA seemed to be implying in his post earlier about Virginia cabs in DC.
[If one picks up a cab at Newark Airport, what kind of a cab would it be? ]
My wife once took a Newark cab from EWR to Queens (it was late, and she had luggage -- otherwise an Olympia Trails to GCT and transfer to the Subway would have been in order) and it cost her an arm and a leg. Carmel Car "Service," and I use the term loosely, "had no record" of her having booked them for the trip. And that wasn't the first time I'd heard that from a car service -- be careful when you book a "return trip." I don't know about anybody else's experience, but mine makes me think (non-corporate) car services in New York must teach their dispatchers to say "we have no record" before they teach them to say "hello."
Yet another reason to take the train.
I would never take the subway from any airport. The best way to get to the airport is to park at Long Term Parking.
>>>If one picks up a cab at Newark Airport, what kind of a cab would it be?
IIRC, both Newark cabs and Elizabeth cabs can pick up at EWR. Do not know all the details but, before they opened terminal C I think that Newark cabs had terminal A and Elizabeth Cabs had Terminal B(might be the reverse). Do not know what the setup is at terminal C or the north terminal(do they still use the north terminal?).
Peace,
ANDEE
North Terminal is now a cargo facility.
How are the fares regulated?
I am not certain, I believe metered.
Peace,
ANDEE
Plain old metered with one way tolls or like the NYC cabs: Metered with $10 surcharge and roundtrip tolls? Although the toll thing is moot since it's charged in the eastbound direction only and would be the same either way.
Those details I am not sure of. Although I would imagine that it must be similar to the deal NYC cabs have or they would not get much business what with all the other options available from EWR.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> I actually never took a Virginia cab in DC, but I always saw them in the District. I guess they were in town to drop off a fare. I assumed they were allowed to pick up fares there too. <<<
Pete;
When you give it a little thought, your assumption is not so good. I doubt that you can ever remember seeing a New Jersey or Connecticut cab picking up a fare in NYC. Unless they have changed the rules lately no one is allowed to pick up a fare in NYC without a NYC taxi shield. Why would Washington DC be any different? Almost every city regulates who can pick up a taxi fare within its city limits and requires the operator to be licensed (and probably limits the number of licenses issued).
Tom
Point taken.
NJT uses a zone fare system in Northern NJ. The driver gives you a receipt when you pay your fare, and presumably you are supposed to give him the receipt back when you exit the bus. On the express busses from NYC, this is rarely enforced, since most pay the NYC fare. I didn't ride the locals enough when I lived out there to know how well things were enforced.
Going back almost 10 years, in New Orleans they had a zone system on the bus from the Airport to downtown. The driver gave everyone who paid the (higher) downtown fare a ticket (similar to the kind you'd get for a carnival ride). At the city line, he parked the bus and walked through collecting all of the tickets.
LIRR uses zones for their ticketing. The zones are pretty large, presumably to make the ticket collection process easier -- yet they still have trouble collecting fares when your origin and destination are both east of Jamaica.
Chuck
Chuck
yet they still have trouble collecting fares when your origin and destination are both east of Jamaica.
They never collect if you are heading bet. intermediate points Eastbound (unless you're stupid enough to board in the car with the conductor). Westbound, unless you're only going one or two close stops, you'll get caught because they actually use seat checks. However, off-peak travelling Westbound in the City Terminal Zone, they don't bother making collections once they've done the mandatory one after Jamaica, and I know many Woodside and Forest Hills residents who actually use this to their advantage.
Today, I didn't pay on the Lower Montauk branch because the conductor had no tickets!
BTW I've seen kids ride the Far Rock branch in the first car to go one stop. One time, the conductor actually was in the first car (a rarity) and asked the kids for a ticket. They stalled for time until the next stop, then ran off (they had no money).
Years ago when I rode the P&W to Radnor every day, one day several kids going to Archbishop Carroll HS climbed out windows near the rear of the car. They hadn't planned on doing it to avoid the (pay upon exit) fare, but because the car was so crowded that it was taking too long to leave the car and they risked being late for school.
Interesting comments on fare zones. To answer your questions, and share my own experiences....
General: Yes, both NYC Transit and NYCDOT (which oversees the private carriers) use a flat fare: $1.50 for local routes, $3.00 interborough express routes. NYCDOT lowers the local fare to $1.00 during non-peak hours.
1. I've seen SEPTA timetables which indicated fare zones. Ditto for NJT, Westchester County DOT, Los Angeles County MTA.
2. The one time I wandered around SEPTA's suburban service area, only one driver checked fares at zone boundaries; I could have cheated, but I already had an "Anywhere" pass. On LACMTA (routes which use freeways or cross into Orange County), Westchester County DOT (routes 60/61/62), and Monterey-Salinas Transit (all of Monterey County), drivers issue check slips to passengers who pay for multiple zones, and then walk through the bus at the boundary to inspect or collect the slips. On NJT buses, drivers issue a "Receipt-for-Ride" and are SUPPOSED to check it when the passenger leaves. WMATA recently eliminated fare zones on its buses, and enforces the rail zones with an exit swipe (which probably provides valuable origin-destination data).
3. Usually, if your trip crosses a zone boundary, you're stuck paying for two zones - even for a two-block ride!! However, some agencies such as Monterey-Salinas and NJT (on selected routes) use overlapping zones to avoid penalizing riders for certain short trips - for example, a particular half-mile segment might be in Zone 3 AND in Zone 4. That's particularly useful at Monterey-Salinas, where the fare is $1.50 PER ZONE.
As for WHY fare zones are used: I guess it's a way to help cover costs on routes which are VERY long or which operate outside the local funding jurisdiction (always a touchy issue). In general, I feel that zones make very bad public policy by (1) defeating the basic purpose of public transportation - affordable mobility - and (2) penalizing riders for NOT adding to road congestion.
The Baltimore MTA had zones (some came with the suburban takeovers, some from BTC. They further sub-divided the zones in 1972, giving outer portions of several city routes a second and third fare zone.
I used to get a Zone 2 Express pass to go downtown every weekday until the January 1996 massive fare restructure. No zones, no transfers and a flat $1.35 a ride, with Day, weekly and monthly passes being offered.
Well I have a second hand story about some guy on the 407 NJT bus outside of Camden. He paid the base fare (1$) and went like 2 extra zones (@40c.). As he tried to leave via the back the driver closed the doors and preceeded to berate the guy for over a minute. After he was done yelling he let the guy off.
NJT's fare zone structure seems to be somewhat mixed up:
1. In the north, the INTRA-state local fares are $1.00, $1.55, $1.90, $2.30, and so forth, while South Jersey riders pay $1.00, $1.40, $1.70, $2.10, etc. Why is it cheaper in one part of the state than in the other?
2. In the north, the INTER-state fares are $1.25 (G.W. Bridge to Fort Lee), $1.90, $2.55, $3.20, $3.95, etc. Note that both the base fare AND the zone increments are higher (and transfers are forbidden) just because the bus crosses a river. If it's to reflect the toll, then perhaps charge only a higher base, but leave the zone increments the same as for local rides. [If your ride is long enough, it can be cheaper to take the shortest possible interstate ride, then get BACK ON THE SAME BUS and pay the local fare for the remainder of the trip. That works for line 171 (G.W.Bridge-Paterson).]
Cost of living is lower in South Jersey than in North Jersey.
The oddity on NJT rail is, of course, the Port Jervis Line; which uses the NJT fare structure [off peak RTX tickets, etc...], but does NOT use the zone system north of Suffern [the stations are far enough apart probably...] Suffern,even though it is in New York State, is officially in the NJT system-Metro North technically only maintains the stations [and pays for the service....] NORTH of Suffern. However Suffern[ and Mahwah passengers too,as it is in the same fare zone as Suffern...wonder how many former Mahwah passengers drive the extra mile up to Suffern for an express train now...] passengers benefit from this as they get non-stop peak service to/from Hoboken on the trains which are going to/from Port Jervis.
A long-distance journey will consume more electricity and cause more wear and tear, and require more wages. Two of these are also true for car journeys too, and so charging extra for more distance is not necessarily unfair. Certainly no more so than charging extra for express buses. As for affoardability, double the NYC fare would still be a bargain for Londoners, and I suspect would not cause much hardship.
Here in Baltimore the MTA revamped its fare zone system around 1975 (buses only; the subway didn't open until 1983). There were 10 zones: a central zone and nine outer ones. Zone 1, centered on the intersection of Charles and Baltimore Streets, covered most of the city except for the extreme southern, northwestern, and northeastern areas, and also some county neighborhoods. The zone boundaries were set in a circular pattern. There was a 10-cent charge for crossing each boundary, which was marked on the printed bus schedule and indicated by street signs. On rare occasion a zone boundary was moved a block or two outward. I lived behind Pimlico Racecourse, the main bus stop for which was one block inside Zone 2. MTA moved the zone boundary out that one block, probably at the request of the racetrack.
In the early 1980s the zone structure was changed again, probably in anticipation of the subway. The number of zones were reduced to five. The original Zones 1 & 2 were generally unchanged, Zones 3-5 became Zone 3, Zones 6-8 became Zone 4, and Zones 9 & 10 became Zone 5. The fare structure was: 10 cents from 1 to 2, 15 cents between 2 and 3, and a quarter from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5. When the subway opened, all stations from Chas. Center to Rogers Ave. were in Zone 1, and Reisterstown Plaza was in Zone 2.
With the 1987 extension to Owings Mills, Milford Mill joined Reist. Plaza in Zone 2, Old Court Road was in Zone 3, and O-Mills was in Zone 4.
On outbound buses, if you got on in Zone 1 you were expected to know what your zone fare was, and you paid that as you exited; in the latter zones you got a paper ticket with your boarding zone punched. Inbound, the driver gave you a paper ticket; when you got off you showed the driver your ticket and paid the appropriate zone fare. On the subway the ticketing machines showed the stations by zones. You selected the station you wanted and put in the money amount shown on the screen.
There were no zone fares charged on the Light Rail line, due to the "honor system" method of fare payment. In the mid-1990s the MTA discontinued the zone fare structure, except on premium-express buses where the five-zone setup remains (take that, Yuppies!).
Absolutly right. Except the reason for no zones on the Light Rail had nothing to do with the POP system, but the fact that zone fares would be a nightmare to enforce, plus the ticket machines would have been three times more complicated than they are now.
The no-zone, flat $1.10 fare when the CLRL opened was the root of John Agro's decision to eliminate 135 years of fare collection in the fare system revamp. It has actually increased ridership.
Increased ridership...RIGHT!! You can go from Annapolis to Reisterstown for one low fare...that's a former zone 5 down to zone 1 and back out to a former zone 4. It'll be even better when they double-track the CLRL (take THAT, Ruxton/Riderwood).
I frequently take the subway end-to-end northbound and ride the M-9 bus further north. Lotta money saved with no zone fare.
Denver's buses have a flat fare, depending on the time of day (peak vs off-peak) and the service (local vs express). As of Monday, a zone system was adopted for light rail, with Hampden Ave. serving as the boundary. If you cross that boundary, you must buy an express ticket ($2.00 one way at all times). If you stay within either zone, you can buy a local ticket ($1.25 peak; 75 cents off-peak, one way). The Southwest Corridor is touted as an express service, even though trains make all stops, because of the wide spacing of stations, total grade separation, and 55-mph speeds. Interestingly enough, Denver's LRVs do have "Express" destination signs. We'll see if they're ever used.
The last time I was on the Subway, I was Railfanning on the number 3 line. Inside the T/O's cab, I saw a Sign under the windshield that said this car is equipped with ECAM controller. Anyway This 3 Train Ran from 148th street Lenox Terminal to 42nd street??? Also, another thing, besides the sounds of the Traction motors, how Can I tell the difference between a General Electic Controller and a Westinghouse Controller?
Also what R62 lines use the ECAM Controllers besides the 3?
ECAM is a microprocessorized version of the venerable Westinghouse
CAM controller. The microprocessor replaces relay logic and some
analog circuitry in controlling the advance of the high-voltage
contactor cam drum. That's all under the car. You can't tell the
difference between CAM and ECAM from up top, except, evidently, when
there is a little sign in the cab.
It's tough to distinguish WH from GE packages just from sounds.
If it is really quiet, you can hear the pneumatics in the older
(non-ECAM) WH packages. The sound of the traction motors is not
a reliable indicator of anything. Sometimes motors are mixed.
The master controller in the cab looks different between GE and WH,
but that doesn't always indicate what's under the car. IIRC, the
R68A order has GE controllers but WH packages. The grid resistors
are noticeably different between the two vendors. It's too difficult
to try to explain in text though.
Actually, looking at the grids makes it easy to tell the two apart. Westinghouse grids are round and larger than GE grids. The GE are smaller and oval shaped.
As for sound, with the group switch box open, a good car inspector can tell the difference between GE or Westinghouse by the way they run up.
Yeah, but you're not going to be able to hear the group from up top
while the train is in service, except perhaps if the temperature
is just right that the HVAC system is off.
There are two styles of WH grids. The older ones have the big
round tubes, but I've noticed the newer WH grids have fin-style
heat sinks.
Did you ever work on the older WH unit-switch groups?
The R-10s were still around when I started but as an RCI I never really got to play with the unit switch boxes.
BTW: On the LIRR, if you sit in the right part of the car, you can actually hear the controller notching if you know what to listen for. This is especially true on the Ronkonkoma branch westbound leaving Brentwood, Wyandanch & Farmingdale or leaving Bethpage heading east. At those points, the engineer has a zero code leaving until thhe crossing gates come down so the controller is audible since there isn't much ambient noise.
I can tell the ECAMs for two main reasons. The first is when you go to a power position, you can hear a loud ratcheting clack twice before movement. Second you would listen for a soft air flow, to me sounding like a pack of rats munching away. If you don't hear that, it is old school Westinghouse. Back in the 100 HP days, the GE traction motors were fun to listen to at speed, due to the air being forced through the vent grills. They made a speedy whine similar to the original motors installed on the early nunbered R62 cars. Old school Westinghouse had a bad habit of going into series when switching was initiated, especially after going to coast from series without a full stop. As far as identification from the cab, stickers are placed in the cab of R62A cars that are being retrofited with the EcAM system.
BTW, for Train Dude, what was was the exact problem with the IRT Ecam units that were forcing T/Os out of stations during braking mode and why did the brake valves have to be modified to compensate for the propulsion unit (ECAM)?
BTW, for Train Dude, what was was the exact problem with the IRT Ecam units that were forcing T/Os out of stations during braking mode and why did the brake valves have to be modified to compensate for the propulsion unit (ECAM)?
I had not heard of any such problem. However since the R-62As have NYAB brake valves, I would assume that it's more problems related to the brake valve (5 wire or A wire micro-switches) than the actual interface with the E-Cam unit. Having said that, there was a programming 'glitch' with the R-68 E-Cam that caused a short delay when taking power. I suppose that there could also have been a similar 'delay' in the braking cam logic on the IRT version. I will ask today.
There is both adelay taking power and taking brakes with the ECAM system. As a result what happened was something like this; enter station; grab brake; no response, grab more brake; too much brake, release; still too much, release more; no brake; overrun station.This was most especially noticed by people who came barreling into the station and grabbed a whole lot of brake midway through ( >50#). If you enter the station and grab about 20-30# and hold it the lenght of the station, there should be no problem stopping on the mark. The 3 line also suffered from mixed trains - some cars with ECAM and some without. This caused the train to be confused when braking was in progress.
Alex, I can tell you that the R-68s operate like the trains of old. Coming into a station on the post and pull 50 Lbs at the C/Rs boards and make a smooth 10 car stop. The blending of dynamic and air is really precise & smooth. I'm sure that when the CIs @ Livonia Shop get done tweeking the car, you'll get the same feelings.
Not sure about A division maintenance practices, but I would think
ECAM and CAM cars should be run in solid trains until the entire
fleet is converted.
Question to traindude since I haven't seen the prints on ECAM:
does it still have the J/BDC contactor?
BTW, for Train Dude, what was was the exact problem with the IRT Ecam units that were forcing T/Os out of stations during braking mode and why did the brake valves have to be modified to compensate for the propulsion unit (ECAM)?
I hadn't heard of this problem but I did speak to the ADTRANZ rep on Friday. He told me that there was a minot software problem related to the brake response due to differing braking currents (as compared tot he heavier 75' cars). The E-Proms have all been re-written on the R-62As and the problem has been corrected.
TD
BTW, for Train Dude, what was was the exact problem with the IRT Ecam units that were forcing T/Os out of stations during braking mode and why did the brake valves have to be modified to compensate for the propulsion unit (ECAM)?
I hadn't heard of this problem but I did speak to the ADTRANZ rep on Friday. He told me that there was a minor software problem related to the brake response due to differing braking currents (as compared tot he heavier 75' cars). The E-Proms have all been re-written on the R-62As and the problem has been corrected.
TD
A movie (or commercial) was being filmed at Newark on the PATH H platform. The result: Passengers arrive and detrain at the Newark B and C platforms. That also meant that trains in both directions had to share the Manhattan bound track until south of Harrison (which pissed off Harrison customers going to Newark, there's no fare control on the Newark bound platform!). Here's the reroute: Manhattan bound trains went normal, but Newark bound trains went into the PATH yards and used one of the yard tracks as a passing siding. Trains sat there for about 10 minutes waiting for the Manhattan bound train to pass (they actually sit in Newark for 12 minutes, until their scheduled departure time). It was interesting going by crossing gates on a PATH train (well, it's the crossing gates protecting the employee walkway, but it counts)!
"Here's the reroute: Manhattan bound trains went normal, but Newark bound trains went into the PATH yards and used one of the yard tracks as a passing siding. Trains sat there for about 10 minutes waiting for the Manhattan bound train to pass (they actually sit in Newark for 12
minutes, until their scheduled departure time). It was interesting going by crossing gates on a PATH train (well, it's the crossing gates protecting the employee walkway, but it counts)!"
PATH trains on the Newark line go past a crossing gate all the time. It's near the west end of the eastbound platform at JSQ.
Yeah I love that little gate, lets you know when the train is approaching the station :)
By the way, at Journal Square, out of nowhere I hear the Windows NT logoff sound over the PA.
As promised, here's the scoop.
The Southwest Corridor did indeed open this past Friday the 14th, on time and within budget. Numerous dignitaries were on hand for the festivities, among them our own Governor Bill Owens, the deputy mayor of Denver, the mayors of Englewood, Sheridan, and Littleton, Denver's Representatives in Congress, and RTD board members past and present.
After everyone who was supposed to speak had spoken, the dignitaries boarded a ceremonial three-car train for the inaugural run. There was a two-car train right behind it on the layup track, and it pulled into the station immediately afterwards. A large crowd had gathered by the western end of the pedestrian bridge across Santa Fe Drive (which had a red, or magenta carpet rolled out for most of its length) awaiting word that the line was officially open, and once the announcement was made to that effect, the crowd, myself included, poured onto the bridge and boarded the train. CHARGE!!! One cop was heard to say he didn't want to get trampled.
I had my camera gear with me, as I was planning to photograph the entire line. As we cruised between stations on the new line at 55 mph, I couldn't help but think, if only New York's trains could go this fast. Our train was to loop around downtown at 18th St., which was fine. I figured I would photograph the stations downtown first, which I did, then do the northern end of the line to 30th Ave. & Downing. As I headed to Welton St., there weren't any trains coming or going, so I started walking. 21st St, 22nd, 23rd - no train. Got to the 25th-Welton stop - still no train. Kept going to the 27th, then the 29th- Welton stops. Still no train. Luckily, Denver's downtown blocks are fairly short, about the same as midtown Manhattan. A train finally did arrive shortly after I reached the 30th-Downing terminus. It was hot, in the 90s, and I paid for it by getting sunburned on my neck and forearms. Luckily, the air conditioning was ice cold on all the trains, so I had a chance to cool down as we rode towards downtown. I got off at Colfax/Auraria, took a few shots, then boarded the next southbound train to the next stop, 10th-Osage, and did the same. This was repeated at Alameda, Broadway, Evans, and Englewood, at which point I ran out of film. I headed back to Mineral Ave. and drove home, having forgotten to rewind the last roll of film in my camera. I opened the back and - whooops! - exposed the last few frames, then somehow managed to repeat this gaffe a minute later. Well, I had to buy more film, anyway, and figured I'd have to reshoot the stations along the private ROW portion.
On Saturday, I parked at the Downtown Littleton Park'n'Ride and started my photoshoot with a couple of telephoto shots of trains on the flyover/swapover where the BNSF and light rail tracks trade places. This meant lugging out the heavy artillery - my 180-600 zoom lens and tripod. After this, I put those two items back in the car and headed on over to the station. The espresso bar in the old depot was doing brisk business, and the waiting room featured some old photos from 1910. After taking a few pictures, including a fisheye view of the mural which adorns the retaining wall beneath the depot, I took the first northbound train one stop, to Oxford, and resumed my photoshoot. I wanted to go back to Welton St. and get a picture of a plaque which adorns the ADA ramp at 27th St. I did just that, and also backtracked to 25th St. after noticing another plaque there. The ADA ramps at the 25th and 29th St. stations feature some mosaic work, not nearly as ornate as what is found on the Canarsie line. 27th St. is definitely an afterthought station. It was added by popular demand in December of 1995, a little over a year after the original line opened, and resembles a whistle stop-type station. It has no canopies and a single ADA ramp. A "Board trains on this side" sign can be found affixed to a pole on the sidewalk.
Once this portion of my mission had been accomplished, I headed back to finish what I had started on the ROW portion. I got off at Colfax-Auraria just to take some repeat shots just in case, then repeated this at each of the remaining stations I hadn't covered - 10th-Osage, Alameda, Broadway, Evans, and Englewood. The trains were packed - there was SRO in most cases. After all that, there was one frame left, so it was back to Mineral Ave. to see if I missed anything. As it turned out, the next train to pull in off the layup track was headed by car #101, the leader of the pack, and it still had its "Mineral" destination sign showing. Click! I boarded the second car, #109, and stood by the forward cab, whereupon I discovered that all of the train's speedometers function whether or not the cab is the control cab. This train got up to 57 mph and held it all the way to Downtown Littleton. Photo mission completed.
Yesterday, I played carspotter and set off, notepad and pencil in hand, to note spottings and observations well as time some terminal-to-terminal runs. Our northbound train out of Mineral consisted of 122 and 113, bound for 30th Ave. Here I was in for a treat - the gentleman standing next to me happened to be a School Car instructor out of Coney Island, and NYC subway ex-motorman! (Unfortunately, I didn't get his name.) You can guess what we talked about the rest of the way. He had questions about the LRVs, which I tried to answer as best I could. For example, door indication is the opposite of that on NYC subway cars. When the doors are open on one of our LRVs, a red indicator light marked "Doors" illuminates and stays on as long as any door set remains open. Once all the doors are closed and locked, after the operator has disabled the release function, the "Doors" light goes out, two chimes are heard, and off we go. We changed operators at the maintenance facility; this is done on northbound runs, presumably due to the facility being on the east side of the mainline tracks. We reached 30th Ave. in just under 46 minutes. The return trip took 44 minutes. During the course of my excursion I spotted the following trainsets: 103-120 (119 was tacked on later to make it a 3-car train); 117-104, 114-107, 110-127, 108-123, 118-102, 121-112, 126-128, 129-124, and a few other threebies: 106-111-130 and 115-116-105. One interesting thing happened: as I was leaving for home, I noticed that 105 was now coupled to 127-110.
Back at Mineral, I noticed the next train on the layup track was a 3-car set, 130-111-106 headed for 18th St., and decided to take it. All of the 3-car trains were looping at 18th St. Our inbound run took 31 minutes; the return trip took 28. I noticed that #130 tended to squeak a tad more on curves than its sister units. Since there were more variations in the ADA ramps (straight down vs double back) than I originally thought, I figured it would be a good idea to ride the entire line once again and make notes on this. And so, on 129-124, I did just that. The trip back, from 30th Ave. to Mineral, took just over 40 minutes, and the best part of the whole weekend came last. Brighton line enthusiasts and express addicts alike will love this.
At Downtown Littleton, which is in an open cut, we were startled by a blast from a SF diesel pulling a sizable freight train. Someone remarked, "Now THAT'S a train!" I replied, "We'll see just how fast it's going". It was moving at a good clip. Less than a minute later, we were on our way. I timed a few acceleration durations that day and discovered that the LRVs go from zero to 55 in about 30 seconds. Anyway, at 45, we were dead even with that freight train and when we reached 55, we held it. I couldn't help but think of that super express slant R-40 Q which got up to 54 mph recently. We were gaining ground on the freight train, and by the time we got to Mineral Ave., we were alongside the three locos up front.
The LRVs miss perfection by just that much. It seems some of them have the same malady which can be found on R-46s from time to time: out-of-tune door chimes!! Unlike New York's cars which have them, our LRVs have a single-pitch chime, an F# one octave above the treble staff, which beep-beep-beeps eight times, then holds a sustained beep as the doors close. The kicker is, each individual door set has one of these chimes, and if the operator opens up on both sides, well, you get the picture. On one car, one of the chimes was sounding an E one step below that F#, and another chime was at about an F. Somehow my fillings survived.
I also noticed a list in each cab which has a number code for each destination sign - 12 in all. Apparently the operator enters this code when changing signs, and a few seconds later, the roller curtains automatically move to the correct sign. The codes are:
01 - TEST TRAIN
02 - OUT OF SERVICE
03 - CHARTER
04 - SPECIAL SERVICE
05 - EXPRESS (wonder if they'll ever use this one)
06 - COLO CONVENTION CENTER
07 - MILE HIGH CITY
08 - I25/BROADWAY
09 - 30th AVE.
10 - 18th STREET
11 - 14th STREET (I know for a fact this one is currently not used)
12 - MINERAL
Well, there you have it. Look for my Denver light rail write-up coming soon to a subway website near you.
Well today started a month of all Hunterspoint / LIC Service travelling via the Lower Montauk. To accomodate the Cannonball and similar long a$$ed trains, tracks 6 and 7 were outfitted with stairs that go from the "platform" to the train and align with each doorway. Tracks 8 and 9 had their platform lengthened from 1 1/2 cars to 2 1/4 cars. New signs were put up all over the place advertising the 7 and the "Ferrys to New York." New yellow paint was put on the ground to mark where people could safely walk. A "crossing guard" kept people out of the track area while the trains were being moved into position (with switchers, not under their own power!) Some guy with a bullhorn was announcing what train departs from what track.
A red van was the shuttle from Hunterspoint to LIC, I was the only customer until the driver spotted a guy in a business suit walking along, looking lost. It must have been strange to him, a van slows down beside him, the window rolls down, "Yo, you lookin for the LIRR?" "Yes." "Get in the van." We informed him it was a free shuttle, and he got in.
Anyway, here's The New LIC Schedule:
Eastbound (All Times PM)
Remark
LIC
JAM
Final Dest.
Friday Only
1:48
2:13
Montauk
Off Peak
3:32
3:57
Port Jefferson
Thurs-Friday Only
3:57
4:22
Montauk (Cannonball)
Peak
4:09
4:34
Oyster Bay
Peak
4:20
4:45
Montauk
Peak
4:36
5:01
Patchogue (Via Central)
Peak
4:54
5:16
Oyster Bay (The normal train)
Peak
5:02
5:27
Port Jefferson
Peak
5:35
6:04
Port Jefferson
Peak
5:56
6:21
Port Jefferson
Westbound (All Times AM)
Origin
JAM
LIC
Remark
Speonk
7:08
7:34
Peak
Port Jefferson
7:24
7:49
Peak
Huntington
7:31
7:58
Peak
Port Jefferson
7:44
8:09
Peak
Port Jefferson (Express after Syosset)
----
8:38
Peak
Montauk (Via Central)
8:19
8:46
Peak
Port Jefferson
8:28
8:54
Peak
Oyster Bay
8:39
9:06
Peak
Oyster Bay
9:14
9:39
Peak
The Oyster Bay train that normally departs Jamaica at 8:11 for the Lower Montauk (the only train that's supposed to go there) is now cut back to Jamaica.
The Central is the section of track between Bethpage and Babylon, only used by a select few trains.
You can see the three Off Peak trips that run on Fridays (2 on Thursdays, 1 on the rest of the week).
Mayhaps a SubTalk Field trip is possible?
Hi All,
-------------------------------
I promise this will be the only advertisement for my website posted on Subtalk. I will post all other updates on my websites own message board.
-------------------------------
I have started a website dedicated entirely to the Present Day New York City Subway. I have extensive HTML knowledge and know what I'm doing so the site is not amaturish or brief. Over the past few weeks I have been taking pictures and putting them on the site. I have a few hundred pictures now including 30 or so of the R142A's in service and testing. I also have four .mpg movies of them in service including one shot from within the operating cab. I also have many pictures of Yards, Redbirds, R46's, R62's, the Flushing and White Plains Road Line, LIRR etc... Much of the site is not fully finished but it is ready for a "launch". I will be updating it with new batches of images weekly (hopefully every friday). I work for NYCT so I will be able to access and photograph many otherwise off limit areas in the system.
Please give it a visit and if you'd like, add it to your bookmarks/favorites.
And Finally... The Link:
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Thanks,
Harry Beck
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
P.S. If you visited previously and felt the images were too large they have all been dramatically reduced and now load quite quickly.
Nice job on your web site. Personally I don't mind you "adversising" your web site here ....
--Mark
Nice site, I'll add it to the links page. There's no rule against plugging on-topic web sites here. You probably don't want to be posting here every day that you added a picture of three though. :)
Here's some hints for allowing people to find your new stuff fast:
Create an index of newly uploaded images and place it in a prominent position on your site to keep people informed as to what might have been uploaded recently.
I also have a page listing all pages by date of last modification but keep in mind that a lot of the pages here are database-generated and therefore don't actually "change" when new images are put into them. So that's what the above page is for.
Thirdly, there's a list of the table of contents threaded by topic (it uses the same "parenting" info as the links at the top of each page so it was easy to recursively generate the list). These first three pages are automagically generated via a script.
Lastly there's the hand-maintained list of what's new where I list major additions (not simply pictures here and there).
(I realize most people here know of these pages but sometimes I get the impression that a lot of SubTalk posters don't realize there's a whole site out there and not just Subtalk. So those links will let you
explore what we have out there.)
-Dave
Can you provide a link to www.subtalklive.com along with a note that the chats are Saturday at eight? This way there won't have to be a reminder every week.
To my fellow SubTalkers:
Thurston will be giving a detailed report on the Kennebunkport/Boston weekend trip shortly.
In the meantime here's some of the highlights:
On Saturday morning the 3/4 Ton Crew was greeted at 9:00 am on the hotel ground by Todd Glickman behind the wheel of Seashore's prized classic Fishbowl 6169. He was accompanied by his 'motley crew' of Jeremy, Brian, Tim, and Phil plus our SubTalk regulars, Bsteil and David Cole. Heads turned when Todd took us on a ride into the town of Kennebunkport -- people must've thought a Boston bus took a SERIOUSLY wrong turn! (that was cool).
We got the grand tour of both the car barns and the workshop areas. My personal favorite was the tour of the SOAC cars -- certainly a rare breed of rapid transit car for many reasons, one of which was the 'coffee table' feature in the suburban unit of the two-car set.
There were so many cars I need time to collect my thoughts (and develop my pictures) to make sure I haven't forgotten any of them. (Hopefully I can count my fellow travelers to help me out here!).
On Sunday we drove down to Boston and were reunited with two Seashore guests (and fellow SubTalkers, Dave and Bill). At about 10:30 am, we met up with them and a SubTalk newcomer, Nick, at the Park Street station and proceeded to spend the day 'railfanning' on as much as the Boston system as we could handle. First we went to the end of the Ashmont Red Line to ride the PCC's of the Mattapan Line (not bad). Then we back-tracked to get on the Orange Line bound for Forest Hills where we saw the remnants of the now defunt trolley Line of that area. The Blue Line was next (we wanted to ride the dual-mode operation of third rail and pantograph power).
That's strange -- I must've hit the 'send' before finishing this post.
Sorry, guys!
Doug aka BMTman
It was fun hosting you guys this weekend...I wish I could have joined you for more of the tour...but we still had a railroad to run :)
I hope we can plan a Seashore "reciprocal trip" to Branford in the near future.
Jeremy
(one of these days, somebody will be able to explain to me why the A-Train doesn't seem to like me when I am dispatching. Luckily, I had two very entertaining, and patient crew members on the Type-5 behind you at the end of the line...)
Jeremy, it was also a pleasure hanging out with you, Brian and Doug for dinner at the local watering hole.
I certainly hope we can return the favor at BERA.
And don't forget -- if you ever get to New York City -- I'd be glad to give you a tour of our "A Train" that'll take you to the "outback" of the city.
Thanks again for all the hospitality.
Doug
More Bombardier R-142s have been placed on the road. 6316-6320 are what I believe to be making their first test run on the 2. I've seen 20 Bombardier Units and 10 Kawasaki Units this far. 10 more Bombardier Units remain. 6321-6330, where are you?
-Stef
To my fellow SubTalkers:
Thurston will be giving a detailed report on the Kennebunkport/Boston weekend trip shortly.
In the meantime here's some of the highlights:
On Saturday morning the 3/4 Ton Crew was greeted at 9:00 am on the hotel ground by Todd Glickman behind the wheel of Seashore's prized classic Fishbowl 6169. He was accompanied by his 'motley crew' of Jeremy, Brian, Tim, and Phil plus our SubTalk regulars, Bsteil and David Cole. Heads turned when Todd took us on a ride into the town of Kennebunkport -- people must've thought a Boston bus took a SERIOUSLY wrong turn! (that was cool).
We got the grand tour of both the car barns and the workshop areas. My personal favorite was the tour of the SOAC cars -- certainly a rare breed of rapid transit car for many reasons, one of which was the 'coffee table' feature in the suburban unit of the two-car set.
There were so many cars I need time to collect my thoughts (and develop my pictures) to make sure I haven't forgotten any of them. (Hopefully I can count my fellow travelers to help me out here!).
On Sunday we drove down to Boston and were reunited with two Seashore guests (and fellow SubTalkers, Dave and Bill). At about 10:30 am, we met up with them and a SubTalk newcomer, Nick, at the Park Street station and proceeded to spend the day 'railfanning' on as much as the Boston system as we could handle.
First we went to the end of the Ashmont Red Line to ride the PCC's of the Mattapan Line (not bad). Then we back-tracked to get on the Orange Line bound for Forest Hills where we saw the remnants of the now defunt trolley Line of that area. The Blue Line was next (we wanted to ride the dual-mode operation of third rail and pantograph power). Then it was off to the 'eastern division' of the Green Line (Riverside). That is always a favorite of mine (the cars can really get up to speed on that nice long ROW).
To top off the evening (and to get David his fix of Bombardier Cars) we took the Braintree branch of the Red Line to the end. That was a treat as the trains can get up to 50 mph on the straight-aways. BUT, the extra-special feature was the really nice-guy Motorman who -- while on duty -- allowed us to converse with him about the system. I gave him Dave Pirmann's site-address and said he said he'd check out SubTalk at some point (I believe he is having computer problems). That really MADE our day!
On Monday we hit the round around 8:00 am as we wanted to get to New London and ride the ferry to Orient Point. Our plan was to visit the Railroad Museum of Long Island's Greenport Musuem Center (technically, just their gift shop/Information Center). It was closed, but an old LIRR pre-Penn Central caboose was sitting outside behind "Jaws III" the LIRR's retired, deluxe snow plow. There was also the remnants of an ancient roundhouse turntable. Since the Museum bulding was closed, we moved on down to Riverhead to take some shots of the MP-54 baggage cars, Loco 39, and other LIRR units of varying vintage.
All in all, it was a VERY enjoyable and EVENTFUL excursion (However, it was a bit tiring as far as driving is concerned).
Todd and his Kennebunkport Crew were curteous and gave great technical assistance to our inquiries about their collection. A 'tip of the hat' to those gentlemen (you know who you are).
And much thanks also to Dave, Bill and Nick for 'hanging' with us for the day (Let's do it again, but next time in New York!)
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Your report was great considering I was the one taking notes.
So, I don't have a lot to add. Except one area where you're going kick yourself, the IND ride.
First my own thanks to everyone at Seashore who rolled out the red carpet for us, with special thanks to Todd, our official host, Tom, who got the bus ready for us, Bill, who got the INDs out & Doug of Seashore who was on the roof with me to re-tarp a car blocking the INDs. I also want to give my thanks to Jeremy, Tim & Brian who were our operators, conductors & guides too.
The IND trip had many interesting parts: First their snow plow and Heypaul's HEY bale car had to be moved (I have a great photo of the BMT man sitting atop a hay bale), road engine #300 came out to move a car blocking the INDs. With Todd at the controls, it had to traverse the double slip switch, so the yard master guided us (300 is very heavy so could de-rail or damage this complicated switch very easily).
While the IND pair was charging up we took turns "assuming the position" (standing on the steps between the cars with our hands on the door controls & leaning out). The R-4 had a battery problem so 300 came to it's aid & pulled her back on the siding. We then made a round trip in R-7A with Bill at the controlls.
A group of us (incl. Danny from Seashore) hung out for supper & some brews at a place across the street from our motel.
Sunday add to Doug's report:
- Our Bed & Breakfest was 1/2 block from the trolley stop on Beacon.
(discoverd that I reserved at the wrong Beacon Inn, it was a block away from the one we first entered ... was a little nervious for a while).
- After the Red line to Ashmont & PCCs to Mattapan (incl. a run by on a cross street ... there are two on the line), we went the other way on the Red to Porter. Got up to about 50 MPH, went up & down the very long escalator.
- Came up for air & lunch at Quincy Market (tourest spot) before our trip on the Blue line.
- Photoed some type 8s at Riverside, on the way back we got off at Reservoir; saw the yard, incl. some hand switch throwing in the street. This is also where trolleys from three lines (B/C/D) are stored. Then down the C to our B&B while Doug parked the car.
- After our great ride on the Red line we took the Orange to North Station/Little Italy and suppered at Piuzzeria Regina (been there for 70 years and was one of the few places still open). Bill got his pie togo as he had to catch a commuter train.
- Last trip was on the Green to Boylston where we viewed some old equipment stored there.
- We arrived back at our B&B at 11:30 just before they rolled the streets up .... I think we got our money's worth on our day passes !
Monday ... BTW, steamer 39 is definitely NOT ready for prime time.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Thurston. But that's why the post was called "quickie report". I knew you'd fill in with the details.
Additional note: on the return trip to NY we encountered a photo op near the New London ferry port when a Providence & Worchster freight train was making it's way westbound around 11 a.m. As luck would have it an eastbound Amtrak train made a pass almost simutaneously, but as luck would have it, we weren't ready with the cameras. :-(
Doug aka BMTman
One more thing I just remembered:
Don't forget the little kid on the outbound Blue Line train, no more than 4 or 5 years old, who was standing on the seat with his face glued to the railfan window. It would have taken a crowbar to get him away from there.
A future SubTalker!
-- David
Boston, MA
I made it back to North Station, with take-away pizza in hand. Ate a slice while waiting for the track assignment to be posted. We left **promptly** at 11:00 pm, as scheduled. Reminded me of the British and Dutch railways last summer: all the trains left as scheduled. If you are late, you are left!
The Mishawam commuter rail station (on the Lowell line) was about 100 ft. from the door of my hotel. Easy access both inbound and outbound. More trains are scheduled during weekdays, and they also operate later in the evening. Trip takes about 20 minutes, and as the train approaches North Station, you get some good views of the new cable-stayed bridge under construction as part of the Big Dig.
Monday, I took the Green Line out to it's northern terminus at Lechmere. It's elevated with several turns (David Cole: reminded me of Chicago Ravinswood. Check it out.), then it ramps down to street level at the Lechmere terminal. There is a small yard at the loop. Then I took a "B" (Boston College) train outbound to the Harvard stop, about halfway along it's route. Trip was rather slow, what with the heavy cross-traffic. The trains have their own traffic signals, but are not given any priority. Only after the cross-traffic and the left turns have cycled, does the straight-ahead car traffic and the train get to move out.
On the return trip, I got off at Kenmore Square and walked thru the campus of Boston University. Very nice. Went thru the Barnes & Nobel at Boston University, located on Commonwealth Ave., across from the Kenmore Station. This store is actually off the BU property and open to the public. However, it is a campus store, as textbooks occupy the whole 4th floor, and the 3rd floor has items that students in residence halls and apts. would find useful.
Even though B & N is a national chain, there is always a section with books pertaining to local history and, of course, transit. Picked up the book "Trolleys Under the Hub" by Frank Cheney and Anthony M. Sammarco. Great historical photos of the Green Line.
The following is quoted from the back cover:
"Trolleys under the Hub", a fantastic collection of photographs and
captions documenting the history of Boston's Green Line, commemorates the
100th anniversary of America's first subway system. Through a
remarkable series of over 200 unique images, authors Frank Cheney and
Anthony M Sammarco document the development of this active and diverse
system over the years.
"In September of 1897, the first trolley emerged from Park Street
under the Boston Common. The transportation system that developed from
this early foundation connected Boston with it's suburbs, providing a
convenient mode of travel for commuters in Roxbury, Charlestown,
Dorchester, West Roxbury, and Brighton. Though rare—and in some
cases unique—images, authors Cheney and Sammarco develop a portrait
of this life-changing and city-building force that will surely delight
both trolley buffs and modern-day riders of the MBTA.
"Author Frank Cheney is a longtime transportation historian and
Anthony Sammarco is the author of many best-selling books in the
Images of America series. The two authors' combined expertise in the
collection of photographs and research of Boston history have served to
create this marvelous new work, which is sure to provoke the
recollection of fond memories among lifetime Bostonians."
__________________
"Trolleys Under the Hub"
Frank Cheney and Anthony M. Sammarco
Arcadia Publishing (c) 1997
One Washington Center
Dover, NH 03820
ISBN: 0-7524-0907-7
$16.99
__________________
Checked out Fenway Park, picked up a ticket to a Red Sox game, Green Line back to North Station and Lowell Line back to hotel.
Tuesday was Transportation Day:
Lowell Line inbound to North Stn, Green Line to Gov't Ctr, Blue line to Airport, shuttle to Terminal E, silver bird to MSP, auto 90 minutes to home.
Thanks to Todd and Thurston for their efforts in bringing this trip together. It's only appropriate that the Boston "T" Party was assembled by our two "Mr. T"s! Thanks, Guys!!
And that's Transit and Pleasure together !
I have a question regarding signals and the trip arm. When the trip arm comes up how does it know that all the trains cars have passed over it?
Peace,
ANDEE
It doesn't know! The fact is that as long as a train is on that particular track section (block), there is a retaining circuit that holds the trip arm down. Once the signal rail is no longer at ground potential, the arm will come up (if the block(s) following it are occupied.
You're saying that the trip arm dirctly behind the train will always be down, right?
On the MFL the arm comes up right after the last car passes and i think it is because the arm will stay down if there is a train in both the block b4 and after it.
MFL? I'm not a signal expert but it would largely depend on where the signal box is with respect to the block. If it's at the beginning of the block, then the arm would stay down for the entire time that the train is in that block. On the othe hand, if the signal is near the end of the block, then the arm will come up virtually as the train passes it.
On the othe hand, if the signal is near the end of the block
By definition, the signal is always at the beginning of a block.
If it were at the end, you'd be creating your own red signal.
When the block length is the same as the track circuit length, then
the trip arm will retain (stay down) after a train passes and until
the end of the train clears the block the entrance to which the
associated signal governs. Since NYCT is a double-red system, the
previous block signal is also red and that one has the arm up.
However, a block and a track circuit are not always identical.
Frequently, a "cut section" is employed. There is a short track
circuit from the signal/trip arm say a hundred feet long, then another
track circuit to the end of the block (the next signal). From a
Boolean perspective, these two track circuits are logic-ANDed, i.e.
they must both be clear in order for the block to read clear.
However, the retaining circuit is connected only to the short track
circuit, so the arm now comes up sooner.
You can recognize a cut section by the insulated joint, yellow bootlegs and track lead connections without an associated signal.
In looking at hte pictures on this site I wonder if anyone knows what the line of thinking was that led to the "porthole" windows on the side doors of the R-15 and others.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably an asthetic experiment. Since the R15 fleet consisted of only 100 cars, and it was never duplicated on any other car class, I'd say it wasn't too popular.
Didn't the entire R15 fleet operate on the Flushing line from their delivery until the R36WF's showed up?
But it WAS duplicated on other cars.....actually, the R15's were the duplicates, the R11's were the prototypes with those porthole windows in the doors.
In any event, I always thought they were ugly.
The portholes were used on the LIRR, PRR, and other lines long before the subway tried them. Perhaps the subway was on the tail end of this fad.
I can still see those LIRR cars bearing down, Orange fronts, and two round portholes (Yes, the engineer looked out a porthole!) they looked like Owls ready to pounce.
The old LIRR Jackshafts also had portholes, and those were certainly older than the R1s.
Elias
Ever see an MP54 with two owl windows PLUS an round window in the center storm door? A three-eyed owl!
The Owl design was found on the Penn and LIRR cars of that class (MP54) PLUS on the H&M MP38 class. The H&M MP38 had a funny roofline too.
wayne
Yes there were a few LIRR MP54's that had a circular window in the storm door. Pitures of them exist at N.Y. Subway Resources. I think one of them was MP54A1c #4160.
There weren't too many, but they did stand out like a sore thumb!!
The Pennsylvania RR had a large number of freight cabooses that had porthole window windows on the sides!
Now Karl as we're both somewhat Pennsy fans you know they weren't happy unless they did things differently! Tender trucks, passenger car trucks, signals, steam locomotives,etc. Actually I thought the R15 was a good looking car. The R16 came out 4 years later and was the first of thousands of the glorified boxcar design, but basically economical to build and functional.A change of management perhaps? Didn't the Board of Transportation go out in l953 with the fare increase to 15 cents? I could be wrong on that. If that isn't the case I don't have an honest answer, maybe they just liked it better plain.
The 15-cent fare was one of the first things the newly-formed TA implemented in 1953.
H & M had some pretty ugly looking front portholes, also.
H&M PICT
Peace,
ANDEE
3 guesses who's influence is at work here?
Can you all bow towards Broad Street Station and say "The Standard Railroad of the World"?
It's the H&M Joint Service Line.
DAMN that is ugly! MP38 with three eyes. I wonder if that's one of the Pennsy red ones.
wayne
Sure is - they held sole possesion of the Joint Service line until the K cars (and the PRR MP?) sisters came.
Yep, they sure did. And they even ran in solid trains to boot! That's one thing I haven't been able to figure out - even with door controls in the cabs (and the R-15s introduced this feature), the R-15s suffered the same fate as the R-12s and R-14s once they found themselves on the mainlines: they were almost always intermixed with other cars. It was understandable with the R-12s and R-14s with their exterior trigger boxes. With the R-15s, it's a mystery.
This is ENTIRELY speculative, but keep in mind that the era of the portholes was at a time when travel to foreign lands was still done by ship. Air travel was still very new to the nation, as such my thinking is that the portholes tried to give transit riders the feeling of 'luxury travel' that was associated with taking a cruise overseas.
Strength, a circle is stronger then a square. In a door , the metal was less subject to fatigue, no corners. This would be fine if it were a submarine, but here the purpose wasn't really justified. I kind of liked it. The R/15 was in my top 10. I wish MTH made them. Maybe in a coulpe of years, after the "D" types and STANDARDS nad R1/9s have their run.
avid
Don't know, Andee - the R11 had them as well as the R15. I think they're neat. Every time I see RD335 (ex. #5985) I think back to when they were in revenue service. They were probably thought of as a (then) modernistic design.
wayne
Why is it, I have never seen welded rail on an elevated line? I beleive it would be much quieter and neighborhood friendly.IS the Rockaway branch Via duct welded?
avid
In terms of increasing speed, welded rails only make sense on long stretches of express track between stations. Even the longest such stretches on the Els pale in comparison with those of the subways, particularly those of the IND. Besides, I fail to see how they would make a significant contribution to the reduction of noise pollution since the Els are made of steel. Therefore, anything short of installing rubber tires on the trains themselves(as they do in Paris)would fail to make much of a difference.
Steel wheels make a lot more noise going over rail joints than over smooth welds, although to most railfans, at least us older ones, it isn't noise.
Consider what happens when a wheel rolls across a rail joint. The rail bearing the weigth goes down, the unweighted rail remains at a high position. This difference can be considerable. Bang, the wheel hits the next rail and we get noise. There is also the difference in height to over come, maybe a half inch. The end of the rail takes a beating with every wheel on that rail and ever bearing on ever axil above that rail joint takes its beating. This is not maintainence friendly. Not all rails can be welded because of signaling demands for blocks. They can be supported better though, to lessen the pounding and noise. Ther are some newly laid rails with joints that are very smooth and I salute the track gang that installed them.
avid
In addition to using welded rail, I would assume that the rails could be laid on rubber pads to further reduce noise and vibration transmission into the structure. I've seen FRA railroads do it on surface lines.
I'm no Engineer, but I think it's because the El structure needs to have expansion and contraction capability when the weather changes. Placing welded rail would impede that and possibly cause structural problems.
--Mark
I was thinking about the liner expansion of steel, and sitting on top yf a hugh pedestal like an "el" would give reason to allow for movement.
Surely some kind of expansion joints, perhaps like those installed on the Willie B, could be used. For that matter, is the trackage attached to the El structure or is it merely held in place by gravity? If the latter, there may be no flexibility problem from use of welded rail. Is there a civil engineer in the house?
NO, their all rude.
sorry,I could not let it pass.
avid
PATCO has welded rails, but its elevated portions are rather limited. Most of its above ground ROW is on fill. The elevated portions have concrete roadbed.
Are the NYCTA Els strong enough to take a retrofit with concrete slabs?
Any reason why the 7 train is running 1 car short these days? Electricity savings? Low summer ridership??
They always drop 1 car (r-33s non-air-conditioned) in the summer.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why? It's an extremely stupid thing to do! There are people who can withstand that car.
Yeah, but light summer riding doesn't justify the additional
car. It costs money: power consumption, car cleaner time, and
car inspector time (if the car is out there accumulating miles,
it has to come in for inspection more frequently), not to mention
"soft costs" of wear-and-tear on the equipment.
Why weren't they retrofitted with A/C when the rest of the old cars were?
Because they are single cars as opposed to married pairs and they say that there was not enough room for all the needed components.
Peace,
ANDEE
Really? Weren't the first A/C units on the Lex (in the mid-70s?) self-contained units hung under the car ceilings and propped up there with those big, fat poles that I'm always squeezing around to sit down?
Yes, but they were only able to retrofit the married car pairs w/AC
(R-36wf) the single car units could not be retrofitted with A/C
(R-33wf) because of a lack of space, according to the TA. The older R-series cars on the Lex are married pairs also.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's a split system. There are two evaporator/blower units
mounted in the ceiling and one compressor/condenser under
the car. The pair of freon lines are actually routed inside
those fat poles. On married pair cars, the even cars are
missing the air compressor and the odd cars are missing the
inverter (or motor-generator set). On single cars both items
are present under the car, and on a 51' car, there just isn't
enough room down below for the compressor/condenser.
NJT's Arrow III Singles have A/C and so did the Arrow I MU also a Single from when the R40/R42 was being delivered.
Not you however, IIRC. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Of course, but that car is just like any car that isn't air conditioned: move on to the next one.
Demolition, brah.
Did you hear that Demolition lost the tag titles?
This morning aroud 0745, I was at Times Square. The shuttle was running at only 2/3 capacity, with no train on track one. There was a signal maintainer, scrubbing the rail with a wire brush. Very Slowly. What did he do wrong to get THAT punishment?
And anyone know what the problem on Tk 1 was?
-Hank
There was falling debris. It was shut down for an hour and 5 minutes.
- Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
There is a different service pattern on the "M" Line as of 7/17, during the off peak hours. I believe that service terminates at B'way-Myrtle. Can anyone confirm this?
To follow up on this, if there are no "M" trains gong into Manhattan after, say 9PM, how will the "J" shuttle, which requires 5 trains at peak, have the required no. of cars bet. Sat 6 AM and Sun. at Midnight? There are only 3 "J" trains operating between Broad and Hewes during the overnight.
During weeknight hours when the M shuttle operates, it will discharge passengers on J2 track at Myrtle Ave and relay at Marcy Ave in the middle track for Queensbound service originating at Myrtle Ave on J1 track. The current Saturday service plan will remain in effect. At midnight on Monday morning, the first service plan I described will take effect.
Moving on from the Krispy Creme thread, let's consider the broad question of food and drink in the subways. Having places that sell food in the stations, and being able to eat and drink while waiting for the trains, improves the ambiance EXCEPT that slobs being what they are, you get more garbage. Balancing these concerns, what would you permit to be sold in subway stations and eaten on the subway?
In the yes camp, I'd include bread and rolls (esp. bagels) with butter or a slice or chunk of cheese, handed to you with a napkin (no wrapper). Hard to make much of a mess with that. Knishes and beef patties might also work, also wrapper free. Hard candy is good. And, water or selser (flavored OK) in plastic bottles. Nothing that will become sticky if it ends up on the grounds.
In the "no" category, I'd include gum, sandwiches and hot dogs whose contents could spill off when bitten, ice cream, etc.
Donuts? As long as they don't have filling, they're OK messwise. Not healthwise.
Pretzels....
Egg Rolls???
They used to sell pop in paper cups, 10c ea (if you are old enough to remember!)
Best to sell it on the fare level rather than on the platforms.
Let there be a counter with seating.
Dainish... there needs to be Dainish
[Moving on from the Krispy Creme thread, let's consider the broad question of food and drink in the subways. Having places that
sell food in the stations, and being able to eat and drink while waiting for the trains, improves the ambiance EXCEPT that slobs
being what they are, you get more garbage. Balancing these concerns, what would you permit to be sold in subway stations and eaten on the subway?]
As far as I'm concerned, it's high time to prohibit all eating and drinking on the subway. I understand that the policy would be an inconveniece to people with long rides. Even so, having cleaner stations is more important. And let's not forget that many transit systems have an outright prohibition, most notably PATH and the DC Metro.
(As far as I'm concerned, it's high time to prohibit all eating and drinking on the subway.)
Hmmm. I understand your point, but I'm not sure I agree. You've got to pick your battles. I think prohibiting urinating on the subway is more important. Enforcement, and selective enforcement, would be an issue. Are the cops going to arrest a tourist with a bag of pretzels?
I have, generally, no personal objection to people eating and drinking on the subway as long as they TAKE THEIR GARBAGE WITH THEM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also many subway systems that have done a good job providing trash recepticles have done a piss poor job providing recycleing bins for newspapers and cans/bottles. At my PATCO station there about 10 free papers and all the un"sold" copies are dumped into the trash. The only transit agency that has done a good job re recycling is Metro North with bins on all the station platforms.
It's nice to have a cup of coffee on the way to work. I hate it when the only seat left has cofee spilled on it or on the floor.
The litter is one problem, bugs, mice and rats are another.
There are trade offs to everything.
Seeing as there is so much excess mezzanine space in the subway, and seeing as some could be high traffic areas, and whereas the system always needs an extra buck or three,
Rent space to concessionares, perhaps a McDonald's, well lit, plenty of seating, AND, the staff to clean up after its customers.
Looks like a win-win situation to me.
(Pardon my ketchup on your suit jacket)
Elias
(Rent space to concessionares, perhaps a McDonald's, well lit, plenty of seating, AND, the staff to clean up after its customers. Looks like a win-win situation to me.)
(Pardon my ketchup on your suit jacket)
Having recently sat in the dried, sticky remains of a fruit drink, I'm beginning to see Peter's point.
Perhaps discos are the highest and best use. They are a big NIMBY above ground, but perhaps neighbors would be mollified if they were out of sight, and most patrons entered and left the vicinity without surfacing.
Trendy discos could lead to some weird sites, however. Like models and celebreties emerging from Limos and going down subway stairs.
There are 2 ways to deal with any problem. We could try and prevent spillage and trash on the subway cars or we could find faster ways to clean it up. I vote for the later and each car should be equipped with an internal sprinkler system to wash the interrior down with soap and water. It could be real fun for kids.
Also the city could employ all those squeegee men they put in jail to wipe down the subway seats for ppl b4 they sit down.
The NYC Subway: Can't someone else do it?
The NYC Subway: Can't someone else do it?
Do you seriously think that H. Simpson has what it takes to become Transit Commissioner? He'll probably use the subway to ship toxic waste over to the Garbage State where it belongs.
Then the town will have to be moved 5 miles down the road.
>>> We could try and prevent spillage and trash on the subway cars or we could find faster ways to clean it up <<<
Mike;
I doubt that you could find a practical way to clean up spillage that would make a rider in the morning rush hour who just had coffee and a jelly doughnut spilled on his suit by another commuter happy. The only way is to prevent the spillage by banning food and drink in the first place.
Tom
Go Vegan.
Vegetables can be strewn about the floor of a subway car or station just as easily as meat or any other foodstuffs. I've seen more French fries littered about the subway system than I'd care to count, much less eat.
David
Hey,let's bring back the stands at 14 th st.station like it was back in the 60's the smell alone of all the food would make you hungry,i can still recall the smells of the unknown foods in my mind.
Why don't they lease out space to vendors on the platforms. This way MTA wins and the vendors win as well.Every station should have food.
"UUUUUUUMMMMMM DONUTS!"
As Larry said, the leftover papers, wrappers, et al., are the main problem with the vedors, and were the reason why the vending machines and fast food booths starting vanishing in the first place.
William Ronan, in one of his rare trips underground while serving as the first MTA chairman, saw all the discarded wrappers from the 5 cent candy bar machines and the tossed away paper cups from the 15 cent soda machines (or, in actually, the seltzer machines that were supposed to give you soda), and ordered them removed from the system. That was 1971, and other booths have been slowly vanishing from stations for the past 29 years.
DC keeps its system clean because they've never allowed vendors inside their stations to begin with and have lots of newspaper disposal cans along the routes. New York, with 95 years of history in treating the subway as someplace you can throw things and the garbage fairy will magically clean it up, will be a tough turnaround even if they removed every vendor from the system, because the littering mindset (and the idea there's no penalty for littering) is so ingrained in too many of the riders.
[DC keeps its system clean because they've never allowed vendors inside their stations to begin with and have lots of newspaper disposal cans along the routes.]
They don't allow food or beverages, period.
Wow, there's no penalty for littering! I'm going to save up all my trash for the next time I come to NYC. Call me crazy, but sometimes I find that litering can be quite satisfying.
To activate trash ejection system roll down window.
You're crazy.
I was just wondering if any plans have been finalized for our itinerary for the Coney Island tour and/or whatever else we end up doing? And if not, do we know when such information will be available?
The reason I'm asking now is that I'm ready to make bus and hotel reservations from Boston, and I want to make sure I don't miss anything. Right now I'm planning on taking Peter Pan or Greyhound down in the late afternoon / early evening on Friday, August 4th, and returning to Boston first thing in the morning on Monday the 7th. (Yeah, as a proper railfan I should be taking Amtrak, but I need to go easy on the budget right now.) I assume this won't conflict with any official SubTalk events? I may even come down a bit earlier on Friday so I can squeeze in some more exploring on my own (or with whoever else cares to join me) that day. I'm not picky about where to go, as long as I'm able to hit the Transit Museum and some lines I haven't ridden before.
Anybody interested in joining me Friday please e-mail me privately so we can set up a meeting time and place. I'll most likely be staying on the Upper West side, either at a friend's place near the 86th Street stop on the IRT, or at a little dive of a hotel near the 72nd Street stop. (Or if anybody else can reccommend a cheap place to crash in Brooklyn or Manhattan other than the PATH bus terminal, I'm all ears.) I'll let you all know when I have more details.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Boston, MA
Oh, one more thing: I'd be very interested in scouting out the R-142's and the elusive R-110B on Friday if anybody is interested in joining me.
-- David
Boston, MA
Are you planning on going to philly? I have already out a sample itinary.
If the SubTalk group as a whole is making a trip to Philly as part of the *official* program, then I'll go. Otherwise, I'd prefer to stay in New York, especially since I don't have a lot of time to spare and I'd also like to meet up with a couple of close friends while I'm in town. I'd be happy to go to Philly if I had some more time to spend, especially since I've never been there before and I'm always eager to explore new places. Maybe some other time.
-- David
Boston, MA
The only official thing planned is the Coney Island tour which Mark W. posted about a few days ago; I'll amend the Upcoming Events calendar right away. As for the Philly tour-- it was an idea but I don't have the time to go down there myself that weekend. In fact I think I will be at work Saturday night from 9pm to 6am doing a firewall migration. So the rest of the weekend's events, that were originally suggested, are not being organized by me at this point since I know I will be unable to attend.
Or if anybody else can reccommend a cheap place to crash in Brooklyn or Manhattan other than the PATH bus terminal, I'm all ears.
The George Washington Bridge Bus Terminal
Again I remind you all about the Sleeping In Airports website. It is a great guide for the budget traveled and contains information about the best places to get a free room. It also handles bus stations and train stations. type Sleeping in Airports into any search engine and it should be the first hit. The website also recomends places like the roof of a parking garage, a bathroom of a 5 star hotel, airport and hospital chapples, empty conferance rooms etc.
Just for the record, there is no PATH bus terminal in NYC. The Port Authority has one, but PATH doesn't own or operate it. Come to think of it, I believe there is a PATH bus terminal at Journal Square in Jersey City.
Not being a New Yorker, I tend to think of PATH as being synonymous with the Porth Authority, as opposed to referring only to the rapid transit lines. I now stand corrected.
Thanks,
-- David
Boston, MA
The following is in case you are interested. PATH is the Port Authority subsidiary that was set up to acquire the assets of the H&M RR, which owned a parcel of land downtown which the PA wanted to acquire and build on. The PA wanted the land, didn't want the RR, took it anyway to get the land. Then the PA tore down the terminal building and put up the WTC in its place.
Almost correct. The PA acquired the assets of the bankrupt Hudson & Manhattan Railroad. The Hudson Terminal property was part of the assets, but H&M was planning to apply to the ICC for permission to abandon. The Pennsylvania wasn't interested in subsidising more than the Joint Service, which they were happy to get rid of. To preserve the transportation assets, the PA sold the bonds and bought the H&M and all assets.
With all the messages, I may have missed it but why does the #6 have a red sign?
Also as more of the cars go on more lines, the train will have ot almost on top of you before you see it. Couldn't they have put in roll signs similiar to the R62's etc, than can be seen from a distance?
the red front LED is very clear
I agree that it is clear BUT it must still be closer than the current cars especially when multiple lines are on the same track, and why red?. It should be green for the number 6.
I worry about the legibility of LED's. For example, the red LED destination signs on the LIRR Kawasakis fade when one is standing not directly in front of the sign. In motion, they are almost impossible to read.
As opposed to not having a destination sign at all.
The color would be nice, but it isn't really useful. They
really blew it in the late 70s when they abandoned the unique
color system (e.g. the 6 was mustard yellow) and went to the
idiot-oriented color-trunk system. This means that at most
Manhattan stations, the color of the sign of the approaching train
yields no useful information. Couple that to the regrettable
move away from marker lights and seasoned NYers are truly deprived
of their right to know an extra 45 seconds in advance what train
is coming.
>>> seasoned NYers are truly deprived of their right to know an extra 45 seconds in advance what train is coming. <<<
Jeff;
Why is that 45 second extra notice necessary? When I was waiting for any train, I was ready to board the next train coming into the station. If I did not know the marker lights code, I would look at the side signs when the train was stopping. If it was not my train I would just relax and wait for the next one.
Tom
We should actually do everything possible to discourage people from leaning past the edge of the platform to see a train.
One possible solution: NO front route signs! Everyone will actually have to stand back from the edge to be sure to see the side (and not have to hunt for the sign). The edge of the platform would be clear.
That still wouldn't stop people from leaning over just to see if a train is coming, regardless of its route.
--Mark
Automatic guillotines at platform edges? (Just make sure they shut off when a train is at the platform.)
This is an inalienable right of every true New Yorker!!!
It also comes in to play when racing down the stairs at
the front of the platform. If you can't read the front
sign, how will you make the crucial decision: "should I push
that old lady with a cane out of the way and make a dash for
the doors (MY TRAIN), or should I walk as slowly as possible,
delaying people behind me so they miss the train?"
I guess the MTA wants to do away with rollsigns. The R143 mockup looks to have an LED screen over the stormdoor. I like rollsigns better for their legibility from far away, but the MTA wants to use a newer technology. But at least the R142's LED route screen is larger than the screens on the R32s and R38s
Led is clearer than flipdot.
I think we should do away with front rollsigns completely. Although I don't know if there's a REAL utility to them for TA workers. Towers don't still look at the fronts of trains to determine destinations do they?
They can't be that important, I saw an R-32 R with the front sign saying E (I used the lighter yellow on purpose to simulate the visibility). It was, in fact, on the Broadway line, so the tower at Queens Plaza knew what it was.
Usually the tower is on automatic and the route is selected
with the punch box. However, the dispatchers or ATDs at
certain major stations still have to OS the train on their sheet
and they need the route and lead car number. I'm sure that
practice will die out soon.
Why not a LED display the size and location of the current roll sign?
That would really be easy to see !!!!!
Is the R142 on the 2 line running yet? And is the one on the 6 line still running?
i caught the r-142a's on the #6 at 11:05 this morning at 42nd st heading south right at its scheduled time... the air conditioning in most of the cars was really not very strong... several passengers were fanning themselves... the cars seemed brighter in terms of wall color... they did not seem as quiet as the r68's, perhaps because there was not as strong a flow of air that sort of muffled outside noises... the double section storm doors were strange, but easy to open...
#6 line is running for 30 days test & i took one today R142 #7211 in BB at 1:40pm going to PBP. #2 line is not running because they have some kind of problem with R142. So go hunting on #6 line & hope u will enjoy riding new R142 cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
found a good use for those "john rocker"
batteries we never got around to hurling
1SF9
Out of nowhere!
This mainly applies to old island platforms with a mezzinine, but side platforms can have this problem too. i have noticed around Philly (notably on the BSl and PATCO) that many platform once had many more access stairways and now many of them have been walled over w/ plywwod or other stuff. City Hall station in Camden has 2/3 of its stairways bloced off. the "no exit beyond this point" sign is 1/2 down the platform. Has anyone in NYC noticed this? How much $$ is saved by this ands is it causing any problems?
In Camden this was done in the interest of security.
Mike, the history of public spaces in general is that the architects designed them for convenience, but as the two hooved(sic) slime increased the politicians(or managers in private buildings) opted for inconvenience over hiring enough legal thugs to keep the miscreants in line. Over the years here posts have describerd numerous extra entrancees/exits, connection walkeways, underpasses on Lex IRT line south of GCT et al. One of those at Astor Place was in use in the sixties when only one token booth was staffed evenings and overnights. Unfortunately it was also a public urinal
The current station rehab in nyc on the "B" division is seeing alot of strair being removed, Mezzenine space lost or reused for storage.
I beleive a good deal of the reasoning is for security, More platform space, and eaiser cleaning with less obsticles . For a while the anti gum-on-platform was going good , but B'Way East NY on the "A" has a bunch on its new tile floor. I guess the Jamboozy floor washer didn't arrive yet. The 14th St. station lost a bunch of stairs , but i'll admit it looks better and its not complete yet.
avid
>>>...The 14th St. station lost a bunch of stairs <<<
This was for a new Police Station on the mezzanine. Same thing at 59th Columbus Circle/IND.
Peace,
ANDEE
In part 13 of Jersey Mike struggles to fill string topic quotas by posting pointless opinion questions about the Subway I ask: As most of us here are railfans I was wondering if anybody ever sits in a subway car w/o a railfan window or wodniw nafliar? If you do, why? Are there any of you who will wait for a later train just to sit in an end car?
When I was commuting to Radnor (PATCO, Market St el, P&W) I would sit where I could make the quickest exit. I sat in the middle of the MFSE so I could be the first person up the stairs at 69th St to the P&W platform. Timing was important to get to work on time.
Same thing for me if I'm on the Canarsie line and getting off for the N/R at Union Square or for the F at Sixth Ave. The middle of the train is the best place to be, especially if you hear rumbling overhead and want to make a dash to try and catch the train coming into the station.
07/19/2000
When I ride the LIRR or Metro North, I try to ride the very center of the car when seats a plentiful. The center of the car usually provides the best ride. Sitting on the far ends over the trucks is kinda bumpy. Try sitting on the end section of an M-3 going at top speed while reading a newspaper!
Bill "Newkirk"
Or a C-3, the ride is great in the middle, but bumpy as hell over the trucks (where the bathroom is, coincidentally). I think this is why the Comet and Shoreliner cars of NJT and Metro North have the bathrooms in the middle of the newer versions. And it's not because of the center doors, since the Arrows have the bathroom on the end.
That makes really great sense. One should have better aim with a smooter ride. This should make cleaning easier if not more Pleasant!
avid
Center sittig get better A.C. on 75footers, the warm air intakes are at the ends of the cars, and this locationis warmer as well as bumpy duringhot weather.
avid
Yes,yes. On certain trains, the "A" to the Rockaways, I find it necessary to choose a third or fouth car. Its usually, but not always an R/44. Depending on the time, I'll let a Lefferts train proceed without me. I prefer one seat trips at the end of my work/ adventure day. If the Far Rockaway trainis crowded, I'll pass on that as well.
I usually wait for a lightly occupied Rock Park, they usually come right behind the crowded trains. It is imperative that I sit. Bad Knees from past adventures. Standing on a moving,starting and stopping train results in inflamation and PAIN! The placement of the car I choose is as far from most station exits. This insures a lesser crowded car. Users tend to ride in the car nearest their exit, stair, or gate. Since the station rehab began , a lot of stairs were removed, this tended to move or concentrate riders . I don't mind walking a little to get a little more room or enhance my chances of getting a seat. Most "el" exits in the "B" division tend to be towards the ends of the train. Think about it, the placement of the exits. Perhaps you'll agree?
Now move your foot so I can sit down!
avid
I sit in the front all day. Going home, I'm in the third car on the 1/9, the first car on a SB 4 or 5 and the seventh car on a NB 4 or 5 because those are where the exits are for South Ferry and Bowling Green. I also know there is at least one person who has on occasion waited for a particular train (mine) both in the front and in the middle.
I wait for a latter train just to GET a Railfan Window..
I usually stick to the forward conductor car on the F (or E when going to school. The second car, second door on the R-46 R (third door on the R-32), and the first car, third door on a short G when going home.
YOU WILL RARELY FIND ME IN ANY OTHER CAR THAN THE FIRST CAR. I MUST HAVE THAT RAILFAN WINDOW.......BESIDES ITS WORTH IT EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR A BIT TO LET THE 44'S, 46'S, 62'S AND 68'S PASS BY.
As to where to sit, Middle is usually closer to the stairs.
Now, several other people have told you, all CAPS is SHOUTING in WebSpeak and is considered uncouth.
Always the first or last car the middle cars are too damn crowded!
Peace,
ANDEE
[Always the first or last car the middle cars are too damn crowded!]
Not on Sea Beach. All the exits are at the end of the platforms, so that's where most of the passengers are at 7PM.
I used to sit in the middle of Brooklyn-bound Canarsie trains during my Saturday school days, usually the third or fourth car on any given train of BMT standards, R-7/9s, or R-42s. It cut down on walking distance at Lorimer St., since we always exited at the western end of the station. In late 1969 or early 1970, I gave up this practice and began riding in the first car in both directions. After all, I had been doing so on every other train since about October of 1967.
Nowadays, the only way I'll wind up in the middle of a train is if it's already in the station when I reach the platform, and if the cars are aren't 75-footers, I hoof it to the first car. If it's pouring rain on an elevated structure, I wait until the train stops before passing between cars.
On the "F" going to work in the morning, I tend to ride in the second car. For the return, I prefer either the front car (to go home directly) or the rear (to go shopping first).
At the end of a day, I'm usually too tired to stand at the railfan window, so I position myself in optimal exiting position, typically in the second car from the end (since I'd typically be going to 86th on the 1/9). At other times, if I'm in a rush, I'll also position myself near the exit. If the train pulls in before I have a chance to get in the right position, I'll walk through the train to where I need to be, unless it's an R-44/46/68/68A or a full-width cab blocks my path.
In most industries the workers get little job related perks. A few years ago when our car ran out of gas (in reality a timing chain) a truck driver hauling a ganoline tanker stopped in front of us, took out a 5 gal plastic bucket, fulled it up ith gas and funnled it into our tank. He said "the breadman gets free bread, the milkman gets free milk and the gasman gets free gas". Furthermore my friend's brother is an airline pilot and my friend can fly free almost anywhere with his "Buddy pass". I was wondering if the TA workers and/or their famlies get free "Sub". Can a subworker get free transit whenever he needs it? Does it carry over to busses. Can he secure passes for his imeadiate family?
um, I need a pass for myself abd the 6 million members of my imeadate family. They are listed in this big yellow book.
A NYC Transit employee gets a pass good for free travel 24 hours a day on all subway and local(not express) bus lines operated by NYC Transit/MaBSTOA.
A MaBSTOA employee gets a choice: same pass as above, OR a pass good for travel only on MaBSTOA buses for him/herself plus a pass good for travel only on MaBSTOA buses for his/her spouse.
David
>>>...OR a pass good for travel only on MaBSTOA buses for him/herself plus a pass good for travel only on MaBSTOA buses for his/her spouse. <<<
This is a holdover from the days of the Fifth AV. Coach company and IIRC also has something to do with the fact that MaBSTOA employees are not civil servants.
Peace,
ANDEE
They don't even work for the TA.
Your home phone number is in the yellow pages?
I said it was in the yellow book. Where I come from the cover of the phone book is yellow, but within there are both yelloe, white, green and blue pages.
Oh, you live in one of those places with only one phone book.
"Oh, you live in one of those places with only one phone book. "
Do not you mean "most of those places".
Regardless of whether it's the majority or minority, it still is ONE of those places.
I'm getting mighty sick of you high and mighty "Big Apple" attitude.
The city so nice they stab you twice.
I was wondering if the MTA could raise extra capital in the present by selling their future. They could do this by selling yearly, decadely or lifetime Metrocards. I remember the TIME magizine used to offer the perpetutal subscription that was non-cancleable, but transferable and inheritable. the MTA could fund the 2nd ave subway by selling lifetime Metrocards and when the future hitd they can whine for a govermnent bailout.
I was wondering if the MTA could raise extra capital in the present by selling their future. They could do this by selling yearly, decadely or lifetime Metrocards. I remember the TIME magizine used to offer the perpetutal subscription that was non-cancleable, but transferable and inheritable. the MTA could fund the 2nd ave subway by selling lifetime Metrocards and when the future hitd they can whine for a govermnent bailout.
And to my son I leave 2350 airline miles, 3 rental car upgrades and a metrocard set to expire in 2035.
thought about this walking home a few days ago. Feel free to add your own:
Haypaul - midwestern cousin
Yopaul - nephew from Philly
Hipaul - attractive sister
Gopaul - stinky little brother
Herepaul - the dog
Wherepaul - father
-Jersey Mike
I know I'm getting desperate.
Rupaul - transvestite uncle
Apauled, stern maiden aunt.
avid
PAULie
pet parrot
naPAULm
military weapons specialist from anacostia
Jeez...enough already!
David
david... i'm surprised to see that you are getting into guessing other members of my family... to the best of my knowledge there is no one whose name is
"jeez... enough already!"... but just to be sure i will check with my biographer avid reader...
I assume your bed is the "Paul Bearer" :-)
Rim shot!
I couldn't resist.
Thanks David. I was beginning to think that I was the only one here that these off topic,'heypaul' threads were nauseating. I'm beginning to think that heypaul and avid reader are one person putting us on or two people sharing a common brain.
Or, it's what the legal system refers to as a conspiracy.
It was Jersey Mike who was posting the unfavorable (or should I say unfavourable) messages in this thread.
Either way ,your a step and a half behind!
avid... your comments would be closer to the truth if you deleted "step and a half"...
e pluribus unum...i know you like latin...
Yes, heypaul, I'm sure from your perspective, standing in your R-9 cab in your bedroom, it might seem that way. I assure you, it only seems that way.
Heypaul Reiser - 1st cousin, who became a standup comedian...
Haypaul - a nephew who grew up on a farm plowing the fields with a Mack bus instead of a John Deere....
Doug aka BMTman
Just as I saw this post I remembered his family's homepage. Click here to read it.
AOL users. Explains everything. I believe this site should be used as a warning to all those thinking of becoming members.
This seems like a perfect reason to AVOID West Virginia.
The link should also be forwarded to all members of the Extreme Right. It is one of the best visual arguements in favor of Forced Sterization.
Are you really taking it seriously?
I, for one, think that it's just a big joke.
I mean if it was real trailer trash posting that, then there'd be recipes for preparing possum.
Serious? Of course not. My attempt at what some might call humor.
Trailer trash don't eat possum. They aren't fast (or smart) enough to catch 'em.
Only thing they do well is breed.
(Get the hook!)
Trailer trash don't eat possum. They aren't fast (or smart) enough to catch 'em.
Sure they are... all it takes is a big shovel to scrape them off the road :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, as noted by the Roadkill Cafe :-)
With friends like this who needs enemies??? I must say the girlfriend is cute... too bad she's not a few years older. So who's done the study of rednecks here? From Subtalks token redneck, best wishes. (or is there another one?)
On the cover of Billy Joel's "Turnstiles" album, Billy is seen staring into the camera with some, uh, character actors. Anyway they're at a subway station somewhere. But since this is from 24 years ago, and the look of the subway has changes immesurably since then, I cannot recognize the specific station. Anyone know?
I'm guessing Penn Station, but that is pretty much just a guess.
Andrew
07/18/2000
I'm guessing with those small tiled columns, that it could be a local station on the Lexington Ave. subway between Brooklyn Bridge and Grand Central. Now which one it is, don't know.
Bill "Newkirk"
Probably 23rd or 28th Street station, I’m only guessing.
When I ride the LIRR (usually in the front car) I hear this bell and usually we have to slow down real fast. I assume it is when a train has exceeded the set speed for that area.
It happens alot, especially around Jamaica. My 9:26am train from Mineola to NYC had bell ringing before Jamaica and also as we went into the East River tunnels. Of course we did not get too much speed that day, only about 50mph on the Min/Jam stretch, and no more than that in the tunnels either. Lately the trains are slow (except on the Babylon branch). We were running late and I guess the engineer was trying to make up for lost time but couldn't beat the speed control.
When we got to Penn about 7 minutes late the conductor announced "this is the beautiful Penn station, please kindly take your garbage and belongings with you when you leave" (or course I see everyone leaving trash behind).
You are correct, the bells are part of the ASC (Automatic Speed Control) system. You'll hear a lot of them around Jamaica.
07/19/2000
[You are correct, the bells are part of the ASC (Automatic Speed Control) system. You'll hear a lot of them around Jamaica.]
You'll hear them elsewhere on the system. Failure to respond in time will put the train in emergency.
Bill "Newkirk"
On NJT the cabs have a fast beep until the engineer slows down.
That is like what they are using out here in place of the dead mans.
It is called the alerter, and you have to respond to it by pushing a button, adjusting your speed or other controls, or even, I believe, just touching the metal part of the controler.
Failure to respond to the alerter: 1) puts your train in shutdown, and 2) the crew out of service.
Elias
OK. It is clear from the trackmaps that south of Atlantic Ave, the BMT (D,Q) and IRT (2,3,4,5) share the Flatbush Ave tunnel, with the BMT on the inner tracks. My question is this: Since this section of subway was built durring the era of dual contracts, why is it that these lines don't share any platforms. That would seem to be the purpose of putting them both in the same tunnel, wouldn't it?
Why is it that they don't even share stations? Why did they build the 7th Ave station (D/Q) seperately from the the Bergen St and Grand Army Plaza (2/3) stations?
After all, in Queens the BMT (N) and IRT (7) share a platform, and once upon a time even shared the Corona and Astoria lines.
Basically because the BMT and IRT in the era of the Dual Contracts were COMPETING companies and did not want to offer transfer privileges to the other company. They were put in the same tunnel because both companies wanted service under Flatbush Ave, and this was kind of a compromise solution.
The BMT & IRT have shared platforms at Queensboro Plaza because of a trackage rights agreement set up between the two companies. Either company could run service up the Astoria or Flushing legs of the elevateds that intersect there (for instance, IRT trains over thw QB bridge terminating at Queensborough Plaza).
--Mark
OK. But maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to connect these tracks. The track maps show that it would be fairly easy to add a couple of island platforms to serve both the 4/5 and D/Q at Bergen Street. It could even take the place of the current Seventh Ave D/Q stop. Granted, this would make an express stop out of a currently local stop, but I think it's warrented since it would be a useful accross-the-platform transfer point.
Actually it may not be that easy. I guess it depends on how much space is between the tracks.
The track maps are not scale documents. Take a look at The Brooklyn IRT. In that page are links two two diagrams by Joe Brennan explaining what goes on in the Flatbush Ave. corridor. I think you'll find it highly informative (as are all Joe's works).
Actually, the BMT and IRT, as separate companies, never shared platforms at Queensboro Plaza. The existing station is the old IRT station, only half of the former structure. There were two more platforms and four more tracks directly north of the existing structure which served the BMT.
Service was consolidated in the south half of the station in 1949, when the BMT trains were through routed to Astoria, ending the BMT shuttle services from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria and Flushing and IRT service to Astoria. The north half of the structure was torn down in the early 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
Todd,
The Seashore trip sounded like fun. Wish I could have been there. So, regarding your post about *next year's* (hopefully!) Subtalk field trip to Seashore and possible AMTRAK service to Portland:
Where are the proposed stops? What will be the closest one to Kennebunkport? Will there be one near York Harbor? My wife & I stayed at a nice B&B there in May when I stopped by to say hello. I should research this myself, but I'm not at home -- plus, other Subtalkers may want to know.
KP
I'm not certain of this, but I believe the nearest stop will be Saco, about 10 miles north of the Museum. Last I heard, the Boton-Portland train's inaugural was postponed until next spring, due to "Big Dig" construction at North Station. There are to be two tracks at a time out-of-service at North Station until, as automobile tunnels are being placed under the terminal tracks. [#'s 1 and 10 were OTS until recently; now it's 8&9.] The MBTA's commuter rail service fills all currently available tracks.
Of course those coming from NYC will have to transfer from South to North Station by subway, taxi, or a looooong walk... the idea of a North-South Rail Link has thoughts, but no funding. The Second Avenue Subway will be long completed before the NSRL...
per official bulletin. Will go on sale at 7am on 7/24/2000. Stations are grouped to save space. As usual supervisionm can transfer cards to other booths or a booth might not get the cards even thought hey are supposed to get the cards. FGor best success go to the main booth at the station.
5th av(Manhattan)-N,R,E,F
57-N,R,B,Q
Lex/63-B,Q
7av(Manhattan)-B,D,E
Bway/Nassu- Fulton-4,5,A,C,J,M,Z
Canal-A,C,E only
23-C,E
50-A,C,E,1,9
103-B,C,1,9
Franklin St (Manhattan)1,9
28-1,9,6
34-1,2,3,9
Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall-4,5,6,J,M,Z
33-6
per official bulletin. Will go on sale 7am 7/24/2000. Stations are grouped. As usual- a booth might not actually receive the cards and supervision can transfer cards to another booth. There are **two versions**
Version A- Concerts in the Park
Version B- Parks in the Outer Boroughs.
*****Stations with Version A ***
96-B,C,6
81-B,C
72-B,C,1,2,3,9
47-50--B,D,F,Q
86-1,9
79-1,9
66-1,9
*****Stations with Version B****
this version not available in Manhattan ( one exception). All stations in Brooklyn,Queens or Bronx as listed below
7av -D,F
Prospect Park-D,Q,Franklin Shuttle
High --A,C
205--D
67 av-G,R
71/continental--E,F,G,R
75av--E
Union Tpke-E,F
15/Prospect Park-F
S Ferry-1,9
225 to 242- 1,9
Woodlawn-4
Grand Army Plaza-4
Hi s-b@mindspring,
Once again thanx for the tip-off. Your new metrocard posts are the first thing I look for each day and they usually pay off. The cards are out as you stated, two versions.
The Urbanfetch appeared the same; the token clerk held one up for me to see.
Thanks,
Joe C.
I wonder if either card refers to a conductor (Bernstein, Mehta, Masur, etc.).
No mention of conductor(s)...both cards look the same - light blue background, with 'man-in-the-moon'on the left, and the concert schedule on the right.
However, either I was very lucky and only two stations got reversed shipments, or the version deliveries were reversed. The Metrocard I got last night from the booth @ 71 Av/Cont'l was the Manhattan concert card, and the card I got today at 72/CPW listed Manhattan + the outer borough & surburban concerts.
Also, I second flx870's thanks for your metrocard posts; I too look for new posts by you to keep up my collection.
07/25/2000
Has anybody seen this Metrocard sold in the MVM's? If so, please let us know and where.
Bill "Newkirk"
Haven't seen, or heard of, one of these being sold at MVM's. They are dispensing the Circle Line card at an incredible rate.
Also, the new Snapple card seems to have gone fast. A real beauty, I'm looking for more for friends.
Joe C
The ads for "Summer of Fun" Metrocards show three cards... Circle Line/The Beast, Lincoln Center Festival 2000/More or less Mozart festival, and Cabaret.
Am I looking for cards in all the wrong MVMs, or has anyone even seen a Cabaret metrocard?
I wondered about that too. No Cabaret card that I know of.It would figure that there would be a card since two out of three are.
Joe C
I wondered about that too. No Cabaret card that I know of.It would figure that there would be a card since two out of three are.
Joe C
When a new promotional MetroCard is released, a bulletin is issued to all stations giving the name of the card and the booths scheduled to receive the card, the date they go on sale and other information (minimum purchase, problems, etc.)
Now reality:
1- Revenue is responsible for delivery of cards to booths receving regular delivery of cards.
2- Booths might not receive enough cards or supervision might transfer cards to another booth such as a part-time booth in the same station or even to another station servesd by that supervisior that needs cards.
3- Demand for cards varies.
4- MVM cards: we do not always get a bulletin with the newest promotional card for MVMs. We never got a bulletin for Circle Line and never got a Lincoln Center MetroCard Bulletin.
Information on new (or re-run) promotional metroCards is based on official bulletins which I see at my various booths. I work as a Night Lunch Relief and as such go to different booths (and different booths on each day I work. Sorry- I wont post my specific schedule for security concerns.) Suffice to say:
Saturday and Sunday I am on the Brooklyn/Queens A to/from Lefferts.
Monday I am on the L line (and briefly on the J and F).
Tuesday I am on the 2/5 in the Bronx.
Wednesday I am on the J.
I will not post specific stations and specific times I work ,so please do not ask.
I do appreciate the many fans using the info I post. Thanks for riding MTA New York City Transit-- Going your way!
Hello there,
I state again that your posts are very useful. Thanks for that background info.
I generally arm myself with your post, listing the stations. Generally they are right on the money. Most agents are cordial and will assist. Once in a while they may not have the card, but will point me in the right direction. Otherwise I just follow your list, and presto! Another card for the collection.
Thanx again,
Joe C.
While the conductors (Program I -André Raphel Smith, Program II - Mikko Franck) are not listed on the card, Kurt Masur is credited on the MetroCard as the New York Philarmonic Music Director.
Two different jobs, but I thought I'd clarify that Masur's name appears anyway.
They are in revenue service on the 2 as of Tuesday 7/18. Amen!
-Stef
YEAH BABY! its about time! my ass is ridin that thing tomorrow mornin. even though it is a crappy manufacturer, i have faith in bombaridier's R 142. GO BOMBARDIER!
Hmmm. This should be interesting to see Bombardier’s R142 on the 2 line, being as I rode on the Kawasaki R142A’s traveling on the 6 line last Tuesday (and seeing the City Hall station as it was looping).
Does the T/O still allow passengers to ride through the City Hall loop with those R142As?? I would like to see that old station myself, but don't want to "illegally" ride a train to do it. And I really haven't been riding the Lex line these few weeks.
Well other Bombardier products seem to be doing well such as Boston's new Red Line Cars (I'm headed to Boston this Saturday, time for some T riding!), its sleek European LRVs and its Talent DMUs in Germany. Even its Mexican LRVs seem to be doing well. I think its just the Plattsburgh plant that's having trouble (blame NY State politicians for that!)
"I think its just the Plattsburgh plant that's having trouble (blame NY State politicians for that!)"
Why? Do they work at the Plattsburgh plant? It's more likely a reflection on the quality of the production workers or the plant and its equipment.
Interesting points there. Wasn’t it, like, as late as a quarter-century ago that the subway cars riding our rails were all made by out-of-state manufacturers [American Car & Foundry (which had become ACF Industries by the time of the R-16 order), Berwick, Pa.; St. Louis Car Co., St. Louis, Mo.; Budd Co., Red Lion, Pa.; Pullman-Standard, Chicago, Ill.]? And finally, wha’ happened?
Mazel Tov! It's about time! When I go back home, I'm gonna make a point of riding it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Does anyone know what's happened to these 2 R68s? They were the ones that derailed a while back at DeKalb Avenue.
I went on the road today and found R-28 Car 7885, subject of a Movie Thread, recently, showing her age. Strange that she was the topic, I took her down to Bowling Green and thought could she have been the star of a show at one time? In addition, the R-142 and R-142As were carrying passengers. At City Hall, Patrolmen were on board the New Tech Train as it circled the loop. Hizzoner is keeping a watchful eye on the railfans.... I noticed that R-62s are getting black floors. I didn't know that the cars were due for floor replacement. They look good.
That was my day!
-Stef
Gee Stef, if you had seen that newspaper picture before you rode on 7885, you could have stood just inside the last door on the number 2 end behind the motorman's cab, and been in in the same spot that Bing Crosby stood 24 years ago.
Now aren't you sorry that you did not go out and buy the Sunday News?
Sure, old buddy. Bing Crosby and 7885? What a combination.
-Stef
I know that 7885 will never replace 6688 as your favorite, but just think, you have now ridden in a subway car that Bing Crosby once rode in!
6688 is number one, but 7885 has it's place in history. Now it's time to bring the World's Fair to Branford!
-Stef
Do you have any room for them?
Maybe.... But it is not up to me to decide what the Museum will acquire in the future. Right about now, we could sure use a new carbarn with additional storage space.
-Stef
If space becomes a problem I can store some of the BU's down here!
>>>.... I noticed that R-62s are getting black floors. <<<
Some R-62s have had black floors for a while. Do not think they are doing any more at this time, however.
Peace,
ANDEE
For a sneak preview for the 2001 New York City Subways calendar- Click Here
---- Bill "Newkirk"
I love the picture. You my friend have given us a glimpse of the future, and in the same regard, we always have the opportunity to look back on our past. Great cover, keep up the good work. I know what I'm getting!
I have all of your calendars except the 1997 and 1998 copies.
-Stef
07/19/2000
Stef,
Thanks for the kind words. You and everybody else here on SubTalk should know that for the September image there is also a shot of Redbirds on the #2. So there are two shots satisfying the two most rabid factions on SubTalk, the Redbird crowd and the R-142 crowd!
Bill "Newkirk"
Is there any chance that August has a picture of the 900 series BU's?
07/19/2000
[Is there any chance that August has a picture of the 900 series BU's?]
No Karl, but the closest thing that comes to it is the "ghosted" image on all pages of 1300 series convertibles on the Myrtle Ave "el" take from Fort Green Park.
Bill "Newkirk"
Any "L"s, "Q"s, "N"s or "A"s on the 2001 calendar?
thankx
Wayne
07/20/2000
[Any "L"s, "Q"s, "N"s or "A"s on the 2001 calendar? ]
No sir.
Bill "Newkirk"
No "N"'s? Well then Bill you can count me out. What kind of calendar can that be without a Sea Beach train on it? Bush league?
Do better next time, old buddy.
07/21/2000
[No "N"'s? Well then Bill you can count me out. What kind of calendar can that be without a Sea Beach train on it? Bush league?
Do better next time, old buddy.]
Sorry Fred, there's always next year !
Bill "Newkirk"
07/21/2000
BTW - I almost forgot Fred, do you have the 2000 calendar? The August image is the restored BU's at 8th Ave. on the Sea Beach. I rarely repeat lines or equipment in consectutive calendars.I do my best to satisfy everybody but it's only a calendar with 12 images plus the cover!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, maybe next year......
wayne
I guess that means no teal-and-white R-10 photos then. Oh, well....
Always a diplomat :)
And as always, some terrific work, and something I seek out every year.
When you're ready to take orders, do let us know.
--Mark
My browser can't properly access the site but I am sure the pic is a good one.
I eagerly await the 2001 calendar.
I've indexed your calendars in my collection from 1994 to help me ID car types. It has helped turned me into a subfan. I think that's a good thing, but my wife has another opinion ... Thanks Bill
BTW, I also like very much the WABCO calendar for a little variety. This I have been able to get thanks to a fellow subtalker in Atlanta.
Mr t__:^)
07/20/2000
[I've indexed your calendars in my collection from 1994 to help me ID car types. It has helped turned me into a subfan. I think that's a good thing, but my wife has another opinion ... Thanks Bill ]
Someday she'll understand and give her approval!
Bill "Newkirk"
Great pic Bill! When will we able to order??
07/20/2000
[Great pic Bill! When will we able to order??]
About another month. I'll keep SubTalk posted with Dave Pirmann's blessings of course!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill,
Do I have to order directly from you, or can I pick up the calendar from somewhere?
B61 Leonard
07/22/2000
[Hey Bill,
Do I have to order directly from you, or can I pick up the calendar from somewhere?
B61 Leonard]
They'll be ready this August. If you e-mail me your mailing address, I'll send you an order form. But please use my e-mail for this. Thanks!
Bill "Newkirk"
A-same
B-C.I.-36st.(non rush)C.I.-57th7ave (rush)
via Montague Broadway express
C-Worldtrade-205st (CPW local Bx.Local)
D-34st6thave.-Bedford park blvd.
E-Parson blvd.-Euclid ave.(Queens exp.,Bklyn Local)
F-same
G-same (extended to Church ave rush)
J/Z-Parsons blvd.-Broad st. (increased service)
L-same
M-Metropolitan ave.-168st Man.(CPW local)
N-Astoria-C.I. (Bklyn local ,Man.local)
P-C.I.-Atlantic ave. (Brighton local)
Q-Brighton Bch.-21st.Queensbridge
via Montague Broadway express
R-71 Cont.-Canal st.(Broadway local)
S-95st.-59st.
V-57th 6ave.-Grand st.
These are my predictions.Let me know your ideas?
<>That should be K. M to Bay Ridge.
<>To Bay Ridge.
<>CI-Flushing via E,F,G,R storage in addition to Corona Yard.
I guess the routes didn't come out right. The thread's M service-That should be K.
M to Bay Ridge.
R-To Bay Ridge.
P-CI-Flushing via E,F,G,R.Train storage in addition to Corona Yard.
no M to 57/6
K to 42/8 use that platform or K to 71/Continental
The main point -- no matter how you slice it, the number of trains going through Pacific/DeKalb to Manhattan drops by almost half, and everyone going to Midtown gains 15 minutes of HELL.
I would expect a desperate attempt to shift riders to the Culver. I might even make sense to shut down the West End and bus people. You might see a quick rebuild of the Shuttle to take longer trains, with Brighton locals routed there. You might also see the G routed to Church, and people encouraged to take it to the L and change trains.
But it won't help.
A-Same
B-From NJ point CPW Express
C-To Leffets Bvld from NJ Point
D-From Pelham Bay Park/Upper Bronx Crosstown
E,F,G,R-Same
H-Rockaway Park to Parsons/Archer via 6 Av-63 Street
J,L,Z-Same. L uses OPTO R143
K-42/8 to Canarsie
M-extended to Bay Ridge uses R143 OPTO
N-via Bridge
P-as R32 would read--:Flushing Main St.:-:Coney Island:-:Queens Bvld,6 Av,West End,Culver Local:
Q-via Broadway-63 Street to Parsons/Archer
S-42 Street
T-Broadway Express via Bridge to 57/7
U-2 Av Via Bridge Brighton Beach-Pelham Bay Park
V-2 Av Via Culver Kings Hwy-Drye Av
W-Broadway Local Whitehall-Flushing via Queens Bvld Local
Y-42/8-Metropolitian Ave
Good luck getting Gov. Whitman or the NJ State Legislature to go along with running NYC subways under the Hudson River. They've pretty much got their minds set on the Hudson Bergen Light Rail (a very nice system and I hope it's a success with commuters!)
Over the GWB as was planned before NJT even existed
Right, I remember hearing about a plan to extend the IND subway to Paterson, NJ from an elderly man that I worked with who knew a lot about the subway plans. I would definitely like to know more about the plans for the NJ extention and why they never came to pass.
Bringing the subway over the GWB is a good idea. We hear it all the time on the radio and TV about how bad the traffic on the bridge is and there needs to be an alternative to that. The best way, I think, would be along I-80 since we're talking about an area that is well-developed. It may be hard to find suitable land for right-of-way for the subway. That would have been much easier decades ago which is when this should have been done, even if only to Fort Lee.
nonono. don't let the subways TOUCH new jersey. EYWH! GROSS! build a NEW subway under 5th Ave. if you must and run BART-style trains from the GWB down the newbie subway then under the east river down around the Gowanus (under 2nd or 3rd or wahtever) to Staten Island and then maybe across the outerbridge crossing back to connect with NJT commuter rail lines.
NJT might want to use R46s or R68s equipped with Ditch Lights on trains which would see all R46s removed from the R and E and R68s from the N with the C's R32 and R38 cars being split up for the E,N,and R. Also the R110B would have Ditch Lights installed why they would be on the B and C and not the 1,2,and 3 is due to NJT.
One thing I would really like to see is the coversion of the 7 line to a letter line (P, Q, T, etc). Getting IRT-size cars onto or off of the 7 is such a time consuming job (especially with the forthcoming switch to R62As). If the Flushing Line used BMT-size cars they could come from other lines much faster and easier. I say switch the Flushing line to IND-size cars and connect it to the 63rd Street Tunnels through Sunnyside.
As for the Steinway Tunnels and the old 7 line under 42nd Street, that could all be converted to light rail use, which means the Steinway tunnels will be used the way they were originally intended to. Best part about that is we'd have a 42nd Street Light Rail service but without all the fuss of it getting stuck in the brutal rush-hour street traffic. Several light rail lines in Queens could feed into the Steinway Tunnels, just like Boston's Green Lines, Philadelphia's Subway-Surface Lines and San Francisco's Muni Metro. And Flushing riders would have one-seat rides to more Midtown locations.
Actually a good plan. We'll connect it to the Lower Montauk and Bay Ridge Light Rail branches while we're at it. (All have about the same possibility of happening, .00001%). LRVs can run a lot closer to each other than subway trains, and are allowed to go faster on their own ROW (the tunnel / RR). Steinway tunnels will probably carry almost the same # of passengers they do now.
You don't like the idea of resizing Corona Yard to store P and W trains coming from Queens Bvld.
I do like the idea of turning Corona Yard into a B-division yard very much. I'm assuming P would be the 7 line's new name when it becomes a B-division line. When I agreed with making the Flushing line part of the B-division, I implied that Corona would be equipped to handle B-division cars. I probably should have made that clearer.
How about a swap? Send the "N" to main Street {7 cars long} and the 7 to Astoria . The Astoria trans could be jumped up to 12 cars long for 600 footers if the Manhattan stations can be lenghtened?
avid
There are no IND/BMT Singles out there and 7 Platforms can handle 10 60-foot cars and 8 R68s
11 IRT cars = 565 feet (give or take a few inches)
10 BMT-IND cars = 605 feet
8 R-44 through R-68A BMT-IND cars = 600 feet
According to "Physical Characteristics of Stations," issued by NYCT(A) in 1982, the following stations on the Flushing Line have platforms that equal or exceed 600 feet:
Grand Central: 640 feet
Vernon-Jackson: 629 feet (only one of the two platforms)
Queensboro Plaza: 610 feet (upper), 681 feet (lower) (remember, the BMT also stops there)
33rd Street: 600 feet
40th Street: 600 feet
46th Street: 600 feet
So, 600 feet would allow 8 75-footers to platform, but without any margin for error. 10 60(.5)-footers could platform, but with overhang at one end, the other, or both. Less than 600 feet would not allow any BMT-IND equipment of 8/10-car length to platform without overhanging, which might play havoc with the signal blocks, thus reducing capacity.
David
David
So send Flushing IND/BMT via the E,F,G,R,and whatever is coming from 63 Street.
Wot, no O train?
wayne
An O (oh) looks too much like a Q or a 0 (zero). Same reason why there's no I (eye), which could look like an L or a 1.
It may be just a railfan thing, but I definitely don't want to see the 7 converted to a "B" division. It's the only IRT in Queens, and the first subway in Queens. As such it does have a unique history.
However, it might be useful (again, a .000001% chance of happenning!) of connecting it to the IRT "mainlines", even if only with service tracks.
The P&W use Queens Bvld via the old IND WF tracks and a replaced Culver Shuttle El linking up to both F tracks. Also at times the P would use the F Line all the way to Coney Island or a F Line-Dekalb Ave Connection.
The NJ Points will be Hopatcong State Park on Lake Hopatcong for the B and Headquarters Plaza,Morristown for the C. The L will now operate to Newark Airport stopping at the following stations.
10th Ave.
Hoboken Terminal
Grove Street
Journal Square
Harrison
NJPAC
Newark Airport
The Z will be split from the J after the Willy B to use the K Tracks to NJ via 6 Av for the Meadowlands since the K and Y at 42/8 blocking the 7-11 in stopping all stations to Giants Stadium.
Hopatcong State Park?
Morristown?
Do you have any idea how long that trip would be by subway? Forget it! It's long enough by bus and commuter rail! Besides, who's gonna ride a subway from southern Brooklyn or eastern Queens to northwestern [New] Jersey, much less use it for intra-boondox trips?
Besides, if the subway reaches those points, what's to stop it from being extended into Pennsylvania? Ohio? Indiana? California?
And, in case anyone hasn't noticed, there is a rapid transit system called PATH that operates interstate service between New York City and [New] Jersey (sarcasm - PATH is like the "forgotten" subway).
How about a PATH line from Grand Central (extend 33rd line to GCT) to the Meadowlands Sports Complex, with stops at
Palisade/Bergenline Aves
Kennedy Blvd
Tonnelle Ave
Harmon Meadow Blvd
Paterson Plank Road
Meadowlands Sports Complex
Perhaps also a PATH line connecting the above line and running north/south along the Kennedy Blvd corridor with stops along Kennedy Blvd, Journal Square, Montgomery Street, Communipaw Av, and Hudson Mall, connecting with the HBLRT.
That sounds a lot more realistic to me, but that's just me.
What a B CPW Express Rts. 202&46 to 36 Street with modified R68s for beach gear and other things that NJT wants carried on luggage racks and while were at it run the SIRT to Sandy Hook.
I just got around to opening the Sept issue of Railfan and Railroad which arrived last week and found 2 items worth mentioning. George Smerk has a very favorable book review of Brian Cudahy’s “The Malbone Street Wreck” (Fordham U Press). The BRT Malbone Street wreck, mentioned on this website, killed 93 or 97 people in 1918 on the Brighton Beach line where what is now the Franklin St Shuttle went underground from elevated.
The other item that jumped out at me was (next to Seashore Trolley Museum’s ad) a Joe Greenstein photo of R-142 #6306 on a test run at Gun Hill Road on the Dyre Ave line in April.
I had intended to mention that the R-142 photo is in George Smerk's "Transit Currents" column, but that clause got lost in several changes made while trying to get the link to work.
Thanks to Dave Pirmann for his assistance via email.
We're ready for a weekday joy ride up to Wassaic. What's there? Are the any small restaurants or diner-style eateries or does one have to go down to Pawling or Brewster for chow? The new schedule does allow one time to spend along the line.
Ray: There are no eating facilites or vending machines at the station. There is a deli about one-half mile south of the station on the west side of New York Route 22. The usual layover is about 30 minutes so it would be cutting it a little close to try to walk to the deli.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry - Many thanks - that's just what we needed to know. Next Thursday three of us will take the train to Wassaic, come back to Brewster and lunch in Brewster before heading back southward. I really appreciate the information. - Ray
HEY FELLOW RAILFANS, TRAIN AND SUBWAY BUFFS / ENTHUSIASTS.
MY NAME IS DANNY. JUST WANTED TO SAY HI AND IT IS GREAT TO BE APART OF NYCSUBWAY'S SUBTALK. I AM ALSO A NYC SUBWAY ENTHUSIAST/ RAILFAN. INWHICH YOU CAN TELL FROM MY HANDLE THAT I'M VERY FOND OF THE R32'S,( BEFORE OVERHAUL ).....OFF COURSE, MAINLY BECAUSE I GREW UP WITH THEM.
WELL THANKS FOR VIEWING
DAN
HOPE TO HEAR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE TABLE.
Welcome aboard! This board is the place for lots of good discussion, and the occasional loony thread, about all things related to rail transit around the world. Based on some information posted by our illustrious webmaster Dave Pirmann a few days ago, you are one of over six hundred registered posters on this site, all of whom have one thing in common - a soft spot in their hearts (or heads) for the subway.
One friendly suggestion: lose the caps lock. If, as I suspect, you are very new to posting on message boards, you probably don't realize that all caps is the net equivalent of shouting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Anon_e_mouse
HEY EVRYONE,
DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT IS THE HARDEST LINE FOR A MOTORMAN / T.O TO CHOOSE A PIC WITHIN THE B DIVISON ?
I HAVE A FELLING THAT IT MIGHT BE THE F.
THANKS
DAN
Dan,
When I first got my computer, they told me that it was considered rude to post in all capital letters. It is supposed to be comparable to shouting.
Just a little tip...
HEY KARL,
SORRY......BUT THANKS FOR THE ADVICE
Why don't you follow it then?
It avoids the need to use proper capitalization. I have been tempted to do so several times, since I have an odd habit of capitalizing words in the middle of sentences (I correct it before posting).
I'm worried now, I can no longer claim to be the only R32 on the board.
Too late for me! There's a "R68A - 5200" and "Ken R-68A"
Yeah, but R-32 3731 is supposed to be Henry R-32 3730's married pair :)
--Mark
Yeah, but R-32 3731 is supposed to be Henry R-32 3730's married pair :)
Oops - goofed ... it was 3751 ..... need new glasses :)
--Mark
Then post all lowercase.
I'm not a T/O or even close but, I think one of the hardest is the L Line. First, you have all those curves and timers. Then you have cars based from East New York Yard. According to alot of T/Os, anything from ENY can't brake. Another candidate, the R Line. The entire line, there is not 1 express stretch.
The absolute, worst, most horrific and horrible routes (length wise):
The night runs on the Far Rockaway A. Every f**king stop from 207st to Far Rockaway. I can barely stand riding the line local, I can just imagine the poor T/O and C/R having to deal with 58 stops.
There are 61 stops on the overnight 2, so I guess it should be considered the worst. But the A is longer.
A close second would have to be the overnight F, same problem (55 stops) but there's always a Queens Blvd GO making the trains go express in one direction, so that helps.
The overnight 4 has 55 stops, but again, its shorter than the F.
The worst daytime route would have to be:
The 1/9 or midday 5, the loops give no opportunity for the T/O to change ends (stretch legs) and basically are double-length routes. (the 1 stays in SF for a long time nights, so its not as bad as daytime.)
The absolute worst line there could be at all times is the Franklin S. All alone, relatively boring route, (nights) not even another train to pass.
At least the Rock Pk. S has the Beach Channel bridge, and the T/O can amuse himself/herself by watching the boats go by. There's also a chance the bridge will open!
The 42nd st. S has a different problem. Its incredibly short, but during the rush the T/O is constantly driving in the same direction! The same guy keeps bringing it in one direction, while another T/O in the other cab brings it back. It might seem to get pointless after a while.
And that's my two cents.
Any T/O can pick on any line in his/her division for the most part. The runs that pay the most money usually get picked within the first 5 days of the pick process. There are senior people who will work midnights on a line like the L,A,or F just for the extra run pay. So, it's really not the line that determines what you're going to have to pick from when it's your turn. It's your seniority! The F is a very high seniority line on the A.M. tour. However, not every run pays lots of money. One run may pay 10hrs 30 minutes(senior run), another may pay 8hrs 5 minutes(Rookie run) On every line you have people with seniority ranging from 1 yr to 25 yrs.
Based on a recent analysis, I believe the top line in terms of seniority is the #7 line on the A.M. tour. Most of the people there have weekends off or at least part of it.
Several interesting things I saw on the news today.
The Straphangers Campaign came out with their line by line ratings, and they rated the number 7 train the best while the F was among the worst. Rarely do I agree with them, this is one of those occasions.
The 7 trains are the most crowded of routes going between Manhattan and Queens. They also give a rough ride and are old, and the A/C on these trains has alot to be desired.
The F train in my opinion is better (not the E). Wider and larger trains give more room and seats. I almost never get a seat on the 7 but often can on the F, if I board at 34th street or south of that.
Also I never have to wait long for an F, one thing I can also say about the 7. Worst trains would have to be 2,3,4,5,N,and R trains.
The crowding is severe on Lex lines and on IRT 7th avenue trains run too infrequently. And N and R comes never and rarely.
Also the A train also is very crowded and should run more often.
In general though the Straphangers campaign is a bit over critical of the subway. They seem to think it is so bad, when it's really pretty good. They can find injustice with LI Bus, which about 4 out of every 10 buses have malfunctioning or no A/C. The buses break down constantly due to poor maintainance and they can't keep a schedule. But then again Straphangers wouldn't know bad service if it hit them in the face.
Also heard there was a fire on the #7 tracks at Times Square. Anybody know how that messed up service?
And due to falling bricks at 33rd and 7th (right by Penn) which sadly killed a man, 7th ave IRT trains are running a bit slower due to instability of that structure.
I would really like to invite the head of the Straphangers Campaign to ride LI Bus. He probably would not look at the subway in such a negative view afterwards. Where are those dumb politicos where you need them. Last week the bus broke down heading back from Flushing, and yesterday it happened again. I'm beginning to wonder if they do any maintainance on the buses. I guess all the broken and malfunctioning tail lights say it all.
I don't know who the 7 is doing special favors for to get its constant top ratings! ;) Like all the IRT's, it's overcrowded. And like all lines still using redbirds, it's almost always a rough ride, the air conditioning never really works. It's certainly frequent enough but it sure gets a lot of random delays. Most "B" division line is probably an overall better line.
Though the F is far less interesting for railfanning (in Queens and Manhattan, anyway), it's a much more comfortable and reliable ride. It has its share of random delays, and it could really use that express at the end of the line between 71st-Continental and 179th (I await the 63rd St extensi. However the trains are far better, tough ugly. They have air conditioning, and nowhere near the crowds you can expect on the IRT.
Of course, the F is a bore for railfanning. It's entirely underground, with IND tile. There is nothing to compete with the spectacular views of the Worlds Fairgrounds, Shea Stadium, the Queensboro Bridge and the Mahnattan skyline, or the cool IRT mosaics of the Vernon-Jackson, Hunterspoint, and Main St. stations. But of course that is another story.
[I don't know who the 7 is doing special favors for to get its constant top ratings! ;) Like all the IRT's, it's overcrowded. And like all lines still using redbirds, it's almost always a rough ride, the air conditioning never really works. It's certainly frequent enough but it sure gets a lot of random delays. Most "B" division line is probably an overall better line.]
Ah, but the frequency ...
Your average subway rider probably would rank frequency of service as the most important characteristic. That's not to say that other things are trivial, just that frequency is top of the heap. And the 7 is surely the best line in that regard.
First of all, like any other Railfan would do, I gotta defend my Train line. You know the F isn't inside at all times. Its obvious you haven't been south of Caroll street. After leaving Carol street Smith 9th street is outside, and after Ditmas avenue, every station from Ditmas avenue to Stillwell avenue is outside. Also, isn't the F the highest at smith 9th street at 88 feet above ground? So what are you talking about the F is wack? If anything the F is the best 6th avenue line there is. Because even the Slant R40's and the R68's don't have the same braking skills as the R46's do. Found where? the F line!!!!.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHENEVER I GO RAILFANING TO STILLWELL AVENUE, TO GET BACK HOME IN LAURELTON, I WILL TAKE NOTHING LESS THAN THE F. U WILL ALMOST NEVER FIND ME ON ANY OTHER TRAIN LINE OUT OF STILL WELL GOING BACK TO MANHATTAN!!!!
All apologies! I meant the F in Manhattan and Queens, and the first draft of my message said that. I really needed to edit that post better!
Hmm... stand at the front of the south-bound platform at 42 Street, ask every T/O "Which brakes better, the R68s or the R46?" This is strictly R68 not R68A. Don't ask about the R68As. I bet you, one will say, "The R68 can stop on a dime" The R46 stops smoother. But, the R68 can stop fast. These few weeks the D Trains have been running express on the Q Line on the Brighton Line. YES, the R68s are just as fast as the R40s. Go out and see for yourself. Hell, it can make Kings Highway to Newkirk faster than the R40. When approaching Newkirk, whhheeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwww. And it stops dead at the 10 car marker from 40+ mph. 1 full brake application. The T/O didn't coast until the last second possible. Not as smooth as an R46, but did stop as fast as it could.
One drawback to the 'F' though: no railfan window. IIRC, I've only ever seen R46's running as 'F's. But, like you said, it's a hard train to beat as far as scenery out the side windows once you emerge (or are about to submerge) in Brooklyn.
Well you can always go down the Queens Blvd exp on an E for railfanning, which is usually an R32 with a front window. The E has good A/C too, plus it runs express after 71st (stopping at Union)until Archer ave.
Also there are quite a few spots on the express (esp Queens bound) that go pretty fast.
Queens BLVD express has to be one of my favorite lines. I like it MUCH better than the 7, even from a railfan point of view.
The reason the 7 is always ranked high is because it doesn't carry politically influential riders, nor does it traverse assembly and state senate districts with influential people at the helm. Basically, the Straphangers won't get anywhere pissing #7 riders off. However, the #5 line is perfect for their agenda.
Hi fans,
I put up a *load* of new photos of Low-V's (and even some Hi-V's) from my slide collection today. Check out IRT Rolling Stock for the pages.
I also dug up this image, of Hi-V car 3651. It's at either Brooklyn Bridge or 14th St. (or 96th St. but I don't think so) because you can see the side platform. Anyone know for sure which station?
07/19/2000
[I also dug up this image, of Hi-V car 3651. It's at either Brooklyn Bridge or 14th St. (or 96th St. but I don't think so) because you can see the side platform. Anyone know for sure which station?]
Yes Dave, that's Grand Central on the shuttle before the big fire! The structure on top is the fare controls with the two stairways you see today. Back then, the train used to go that far into the pedestrian walkway than today. The wooden platorm seen is the old trackway for the downtown express which enlarges that platform. Hard to believe that this station is that much changed over the years!
Bill "Newkirk"
Dave, since I'm first and always a fan of the old IRT I had to look at some of the IRT photos. It's getting late, so didn't look too hard. In the High-V section there's a shot that says 4343 on the Dyre line. If that's supposed to be the rear car.. couldn't be. 4343 was a trailer and under normal conditions wouldn't be on the rear.Even so, the marker lights were visible in that photo so that confirms my thoughts. Could have been the next car up? For what it's worth hope I've been of some help.
On the large photo, before I sized it down, it's clear that the number is 4x4x; it looks like it could be 454x in which case it's a Low-v but still a trailer. Are you sure they didn't modify some trailers to cab cars? I'll take a look thru the Interboro Fleet book and see if I can find out. But I still vote it looks like 4343...
Just finished watching the news on Channel 9 and it said that the #7 train was rated the best subway for the 4th consecutive year. Reasons included available seats at Peak hours, the Frequent arrivals of trains and the key is that they break down the least often. The worst were the 2,5 and C Lines. I understand the 2 and 5 cause they have older cars, but why the C?
R36Gary
The C Train only has 8 60' cars that is 480' verses the traditional 600' of the B-Division. Therefore it's more prone to crowding.
Even with 480' trains, a seat is easy to find on a C train. The C's main problem is that it's a local, and runs on a longer peak headway than most IND lines.
>>>I understand the 2 and 5 cause they have older cars<<<
The 7 has "older" cars also so this cannot be a reason. Could it be the facility that they are maintained in? BTW the number 2 spot went to th Q, older cars also.
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember, this is the Straphangers, not a legitimate rider advocacy group. I suspect that the 5 was chosen for politicl reasons: it's diverse riders make up several convienent groups of people. For starters, it runs down the East Side, which assures that well off and politically influential people ride it. Secondly, it serves poor minority neighborhoods in the Bronx and Brooklyn, which allows the Straphangers to play the racism card.
In terms of delays the #7 will always have an advantage over the other lines because there's no merging with other lines - other than when the express and local merge.
Wayne
From a distance today, I saw a CSX diesel painted all orange with black lettering. From what I could tell, it was in work train service.
I know that Amtrak painted their work train power orange, but has this become universal, and are all railroads doing it?
No, but CSX did paint/assign a group to be used for M/W service--also renumbered into a new sequence(900000's IIRC). But as with the best aid plans... as power gets scarce anything roadworthy gets out there .
Usually when CSX assignes its junk, older, dinosaur units to MoW service they paint them orange and they are refered to in the railfan community as "Pumpkins". The DSX orange is different than the Amtrak orange in that the amtrak paint has more red in it and the CSX paint is more day-glow.
Several years ago CSX purchased a number of well-used B23-7 units and assigned them to MofW service. Since they were in a foreign scheme (don't remember whose, might have been Conrail of all places) they repainted them orange. They also repainted their own remaining fleet of B23-7 and a couple of B-trucked U-boats into that scheme shortly thereafter (they had been dedicated MofW units for the previous couple of years already and were in predecessor road schemes, never repainted for CSX). I'm not sure if any of those units now survive, since they were pretty ragged even then (1993 or thereabouts).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I still see CSX's Orange painted MOW units, especially when at BSM, since the Belt Line crosses over our ROW just north of the Visitor Center and North Avenue Car House and yard. It's not regular, but often enough that they don't elicit funny comments from the railfans in attendance, especially at the local NRHS chapter's meetings on the second Monday of the month.
Yes, and I'm sure that you will continue to do so - they've painted other, somewhat more modern power in that scheme as well. I'm just curious as to whether or not any of the old B23-7s are still around (I know they retired the U-boats in '96 or thereabouts).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I finally got to ride the Bayonne Flyer (the way the operator was yelling it over the PA you'd think it was the Cannonball or some other famous train). The train went at a 'decent' clip, not having to stop at all those local stations was much better on my ears (damn beeps!). After the first stop (Liberty State Pk) they wrong-railed all the way to 34st, passing the local (weird thing, I thought I saw it arriving at 34 but it disappeared into thin air). The train went back on the same track (skipping the same stops as before!). I attempted to watch the cab signals, but the driver's shoulder was in the way. Nobody stayed on the train after LSP, so I had a personal express ride back to EXP.
All these threads about what to do if the Manhattan Bridge Closed have given me an idea. Totally ABSENT of the Manhattan Bridge, here's one.....
Montague St. Four Track.
Here's how it works - NR trains would be rerouted via the South Side Manhattan Bridge Tracks (temporarily) to Canal and then run local like they always do. City Hall - Whitehall shuttle runs all times except nights. Lawrence and Court in Brooklyn Closed (temporarily). Then..... with the Montague Tubes closed, workers go in and hand-drill (no boring machines) both tubes to be oval-shaped - taller than wider. Then a new deck is built in the middle so each tunnel holds two tracks, one on top of each other. The lower tracks run underneath the Lawrence and Court stations in Bklyn (express, so to speak) and then connect to the Broadway Local tracks. The upper tracks serve Lawrence and Court and then connect to the Nassaus. Then it goes like this: Z to Bay Pkwy (rush-hour only, replacing direct M service). M to Bay Ridge/95th all times except nights, when M terminates at Broadway/Myrtle and M in Bkyln runs as an S (36th-95th). N runs regular route, only via express Montague and Broadway Express north of City Hall. Q trains run via Montague Express to Broadway Local to 71-Continental, replacing R service in Queens (since R in Bklyn is now M) - Q service extended to run weekends and evenings, during nights N serves Broadway Local Tracks. B and D run via north-side Manhattan Bridge tracks, or in the even of bridge closure Bs and Ds use a new connection to Rutgers or Fulton tunnels
N/R to Canal, City Hall-Whitehall shuttle? How will you get people from Canal to City Hall? My plan:
During Construction
After Construction
Rebuild the Brklyn Battery Tunnel west bound tube. Place heavy street rails in the roadbed . Equip the welded rail trains with heavy duty plastic rail cover , in 400 or 500 ft lengths to be placed in the track gruves when the tunnel is use for vehecular traffic. connect to the 4th ave. "F"G" lines where most conveinent. This idea needs help, all additional smoke dreams are welcome. At the Manhattan end , I'd aim for ta connection near Rector St.
avid
Is the tunnel in rock? If it is in the muck under the river, instead of rock (I think it is) you can't expand it the way you propose. Even if it is in rock, I think your method would cost a lot more than just building a modern set of tubes nearby.
building a new set is not as easy as you think, it would be hard to do wihtout hitting another tunnel accidentally
Only one flaw in your plan,dude. The tunnel was pushed through soft clay, and built with sheilds[cast iron rings].To make it wider or taller would compromise the the tunnel,and MONTAGUE TUNNEL will be history. Case in point, the Steinway tubes. With the traffic the Flushing line has,the T.A. would have widend the tunnels to acommendate the wider BMT/IND line and rail cars. BUT they can't so they won't.
well if it is soft clay (my bad, thought it was bedrock) then they could easily just build a parallel set. so that is what i change my idea to.
For what its worth.....
REPORT
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd really like to know how delaying the retirement of the redbirds is supposed to help increase service on the A/C, G, J/M/Z, L, N/R. The TA already ruled out platform extenders!
Also, I don't believe people are falling off the platform due to the huge crowds while waiting for the G.
Acoording to the schedule the Dave has provided the link to there seems to be on small error. On the weekday NB 6 scedule it shows the train as leaving Astor Pl. at 1131AM and arriving 42nd St. at 1039AM.
Boy that sure is one fast train! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I made it and it is either a typo or I did it correctly. Read my disclaimer.
Laser exceeds speed of light in lab test
-- David
Boston, MA
david... i heard this story about exceeding the speed of light earlier today... i have been working to reproduce the results using the optics experimental kit that i bought in radio shack last month... as of now, i am unable to confirm the results that were obtained in princeton, and i suggest that people hold off from throwing away their books on relativity...
heypaul, I have an idea. Instead of measuring the R-142's for possibly exceeding the speed of light, why not try and measure the speed of insanity in a warped and twisted mind.....
I think that's a heck of alot more important at SubTalk.
Doug aka BMTman
THATS the reason.
Is uptown now in the Central Time Zone?
Doc Brown must have installed a flux capacitor in one of those car sets.:-)
So that's what that thing does! :·)
And, the Delorian had a Trolley Pole in one of the end scenes in BTTF I.!
That pole and hook were attached directly to the flux capacitor in order to channel the electricity from that lightning bolt which struck the clock tower.
>>> Is uptown now in the Central Time Zone? <<<
No but there is a rumour that 42nd Street has opted out of Daylight Savings Time.
Tom
Have never understood how they let Indiana get away with that.....
Almost missed a flight out of Indianapolis because of it.
This site contains thousands of great photos. I'm surprised I haven't seen one of the Times Square mosaic station sign from the original IRT station, which I hope is still there (I haven't been to New York in several years). I have looked in the IRT Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle page and the IRT Westside page. Does anyone know if there is a photo of this mosaic somewhere else on the site, or are there any shutterbugs that can provide a shot to the webmaster for inclusion on the site?
Most of the original tilework is still in place at what is now the shuttle station at Times Square, especially on the old northbound platform.
One of the big tablet mosaics was relocated to street level when they built the new exit but I haven't had a chance to take a picture.
-Dave
Denver's light rail line wasn't without controversy.
Originally, the Central Corridor was supposed to continue to Five Points along Stout and California Streets. Residents lobbied to have the line run along Welton St. instead. RTD told them it would be a double-tracked line; they wanted a single track so they could have parking spaces along Welton. The end result is a five-block segment of single track with three stops along it. Then, during construction, business owners complained of lost business, etc. Well, duh, what did you think would happen?
Five Points has actually experienced a renaissance since light rail came along. The single track portion has restricted capacity somewhat; however, there is provision for a second track which RTD says can be installed "fairly quickly". If that portion is ever extended, it will have to be double-tracked all the way.
I've spotted a few trains along Santa Fe Drive the past two days, and can see that RTD is being sensible: they're running 3-car trains from Mineral to 18th Street. 2-car trains are the rule from Mineral to 30th Ave.; don't know about the short turn Broadway-18th St. runs. The Broadway Park'n'Ride actually had empty spaces on Monday while the Littleton and Mineral Ave. lots were packed. The Mineral Ave. lot will be enlarged by next month by 425 spaces. That's been the biggest complaint so far - insufficient parking.
It's no surprise that the '7' always seems to get the highest ratings: it scored a whopping $1.05 (what the ride is really worth) out of $1.50. The fact that it doesn't share trackage with any other lines helps its on-time performance. Of course, people interviewed on various TV news programs, as well as in NEWSDAY and the DAILY NEWS, mostly bashed the line for its lateness, overcrowding, inadequate air-condioning and unclear announcements.
Similar complaints were heard from riders of the '5', which was found to be worth a mere sixty cents. One man recalled that these are the trains (Redbirds) that "always drag people". Much print was devoted to the intense rush-hour crush at Grand Central what with a lot of passengers getting on and off the '5' at the same time. (Obviously, this NEVER happens on the '4' or '6'!) A very vocal '5' basher claims to be a daily commuter from Borough Hall to Grand Central. Doesn't she know she can also take the '4' which, other than being stainless steel, is plagued by many of the same problems as the '5' and every other line in the system.
The '5's low rating may be related to its constant construction reroutes in the Bronx on weekends, which probably interferes with getting the trains out of 180th Yard in a timely fashion on Monday mornings.
Ratings for each line [plus last year's rating]
7 $1.05 [$1.05] (Tied with '6' for best rush hour frequency)
Q $1.00 [$0.85] (Tied with 'A' for best announcements)
J/Z $.95 [$.85] (Remember when this line was the pits? 4 $.85 [$.90] (Rates best in miles between breakdowns)
D $.85 [$.80]
M $.85 [$.65] (It's been plagued by more GOs than the '5'!)
3 $.80 [$.80] (Rated dirtiest)
1/9 $.75 [$.80] (Isn't this the 'showcase' line of the system?)
E $.75 [$.75]
L $.75 [$.75]
6 $.75 [$.75] (Tied with '7' for best rush hour frequency)
F $.75 [$.75]
R $.75 [$.70] (Rates worst in miles between breakdowns)
A $.75 [$.65] (Tied with 'Q' for best announcements)
B $.75 [$.65]
N $.70 [$.80] (Rated cleanest)(May be lousy, but at least clean!)
2 $.65 [$.70] (Will getting the 142s help?)
C $.65 [$.75]
5 $.60 [$.70] (Worst announcements)
There was no line-by-line ranking of each category, just overall worth of ride. Perhaps the Straphangers' website is more detailed; I haven't checked it yet. The 'G' wasn't included in the overall ratings, but got dishonorable mention for worst rush hour service.
Like the fifty greatest major league baseball player or hundred greatest movie rankings, this is bound to inspire many arguments.
I have noticed that the A train consisently gets low marks in surveys, but I've never understood it. And, when you compare its rating to that of the J, the situation makes even less sense to me.
I would call the A the best, most reliable line in the system. It is a quick, dependable ride to Manhattan from southern Queens, taking about 40 minutes from Rockaway Blvd. to downtown when it is going express, and about an hour when it's going local. Can't beat that. And, if you need to go anywhere else in Manhattan other than downtown, you just stay on the train.
My experiences with the A over the years have been generally very positive, including on weekends and during the overnights.
The J, on the other hand, is a total headache in terms of service. It goes E-X-T-R-E-M-E-L-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y through Brooklyn. (This is mitigated only by the fact that the rather comfortable outdoor ride allows you to listen to the radio.) It takes more than an hour to get from Woodhaven to downtown at rush hours. On weekends, it takes much longer, and, on top of that, the full route is cut back. Furthermore, a trip to anyplace in Manhattan besides downtown requires a transfer.
I live right near Jamaica Avenue and Woodhaven Blvd., less than two blocks from the J stop. Yet, in the morning, whenever possible, I avoid the J train and take the Q11 bus down Woodhaven Blvd. to the A train station at Rockaway Blvd. The bus ride PLUS the A train ride still takes less time than the J!
So, I think the A train deserves much more respect than it generally gets for its service. I have lived in Flushing, and I know how good the 7 train is, and the A train is just as good.
Ferdinand Cesarano
See, the problem is the southern legs with the A Line. The A Line runs 38 trains during rush hour according to the October 1999 assignments. During that time, 5 trains run to and from Beach 116 Street. The other 33 run between Mott Avenue and Lefferts. Say the headway for the A Line was 3 minutes. You come down the steps of West 4th Street. You miss an A Train to Mott Avenue. 3 Minutes later, and A Train to Lefferts comes. You let it pass. Another A Train comes. It goes to Beach 116 Street. That's 6 minutes. You have to wait another 3 minutes for another one to Mott Avenue. That's 9 Minutes! That's too long for a rush hour train. And 3 minutes, is that even it's actual headway?
I think the three key measures are crowding, wait, and speed. One Straphanger measure is good, one weak, one non-existent.
They measure crowding by seats at rush hour, but is it reasonable for those located close to Manhattan to expect a seat? The should measure whether or not there is room to stand comfortably at rush hour, and percent with a seat at noon.
The wait time measure is fine.
They should measure the time it takes to get from the outer point of a line to a center of the CBD point -- say crossing 34th Street or 6th Avenue, and divide it by the mileage -- miles per hour. The Daily News' driving vs. subway contests were good, and should be replicated. Less time than driving = good. More time = bad.
[The Daily News' driving vs. subway contests were good, and should
be replicated. Less time than driving = good. More time = bad.]
It depends on what those contests measured. Simply looking at driving time is highly misleading if parking isn't taken into account.
(Simply looking at driving time is highly misleading if parking isn't taken into account.)
Agreed. That's why I always prefer to take transit there, and drive home. Hard to arrange that, however.
Take the subway home after work. At about 8:PM, drive your car near your workplace. Take the subway home again.
Next morning, take the train to work.
Surprise!! Your car's waiting for you. Drive it home, then back at 8:PM, take the subway home.
Okay, when I started typing this it seemed much less stupid.
OR:
Bribe the right politicians and/or bureaucrats and get one of those "NO PARKING EXCEPT AUTHORIZED VEHICLES" permits.
Let's see. Are you paying to park your car overnight in Manhattan when you have no reason to leave the car in Manhattan overnight? Or have you found somewhere in Manhattan where (a) on-street parking is legal and free all day and night and (b) parking is easy to find in the evening? (The parts of Manhattan with free parking are the residential neighborhoods. Parking is, if anything, harder to find in the evening than in the morning rush hour.)
Like I said. It didn't seem stupid when I first started typing it at 11:33 PM, but I couldn't logically figure out a way to find the car there (in a good parking spot) after work, and still be able to take tranit to work.
This survey has no scientific basis and is wholely opinion-based. As I've said before, "Opinions are like arm pits. We all got 'em & they all stink."
Train Dude, you mine as well not check out the "break-down rate" for the D Line. What was the MDBF for the R68s on the D Line for 1999? According to the report, it was 1xx,xxx miles.
The 12 month moving average for the D line is currently over 140,000 miles. Hardly anything to sneeze at. The fact that the D line was 4th in that survey behind a part time line (Q) doesn't change my feeling about the survey.
The report lists 114,743 miles for the D Line.
Consider the source. Never dispute T-Dude's statistics. He's in a better position to state the real numbers than anyone with the Straphangers.
Of course... I just posted the number to show how off the report is. (I should've typed that in the post.)
Dig deeper and you'll understand why this report is bogus. The average subway rider isn't sophisticated enough to notice them.
I know the report is bogus. I'm just trying to find as many ways it is. It's more fun that finding Waldo.
My numbers are actually fresher than the ones published in the study. Mine are for the 12 months ending June 2000. The number is actually over 143,000 miles.
Of course... I just posted the number to show how off the report is.
And to an avid subway rider, I can attest to the complete innaccuracy of this report. Any critical review of the subway system which does not focus on the Manhattan Bridge fiasco as it's # 1 problem needs tobe dismissed.
As far as I'm concerned, the B/D/N/Q/R lines rate well under the 5.
(As far as I'm concerned, the B/D/N/Q/R lines rate well under the 5.)
The M to/from Brooklyn ain't so great either.
Glad I live on the F, which HAS been pretty good most of the time.
Why should the B/D/Q rate under the 5? Those trains are packed into and out of Brooklyn during rush hour. They run in 6 minute headways. That's the maximun capacity for the 6th Avenue Express tracks. 2 minutes a train. Sometimes not even.
With a fully functional Mnhattan bridge, the B/D/N/Q and R lines can all run at 5 minute headways, alleviating the crowding. The 2 additional tracks would also ease congestion, reducing delays and "slow" service around Dekalb Ave.
4 tracks = 48 TPH at the peak. Much better than today's bridge capacity, 30 TPH.
Why are you suddenly talking about a fully functional bridge? We're talking about those lines under today's conditions. The way the B/D/Q (defending those only) run today. Why should they be worth less than the 5? The report is not based upon how they can be. It's based on how they actually are.
The report fails to mention this subject and it's affect on all the lines that run through Dekalb. If lack of seats and frequency of service are the topics they used to rate subway lines, then this one particular subject ranks as probably the worst cause of these problems, on multiple lines. Nothing bad on the #5 justifies it ranking below any line running through Dekalb.
Don't try to defend this report. It's pure garbage.
And your point about DeKalb being slow??? A Line should not be rated lower because it runs slow through an area. You can't change that. This sucky report is to make the NYCT change the conditons that are bad on a line. What are you going to do with Dekalb? Tear down the whole are and build it straight?
"The report fails to mention this subject and it's affect on all the lines that run through Dekalb. If lack of seats and frequency of service are the topics they used to rate subway lines, then this one particular subject ranks as probably the worst cause of these problems, on multiple lines."
What on earth does running slow through DeKalb have to do with frequency of service? All the trains get slowed down. If all then they won't bunch. These slow areas have been take into consideration when writing up the schedules. You don't lose frequency of service because all the lines slow down. You lose frequency of service when 1 train runs slow and they all bunch and all of them get backed up.
You obviously don't remember service pre 1986 with all 4 tracks in operation. Service has had to be cut on all the lines through Dekalb as a result of closing 2 of the 4 tracks, and congestion on the remaining tracks has made for a longer ride. What I'm trying to say is that this problem should be the #1 focus of any worthwhile report rating each subway line. It affects more lines than any other single problem, and it's effects can be felt throughout the system, not just in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Astoria service today cannot be increased because the N line cannot increase it's headway. Ditto for the Concourse line in the Bronx (B/D).
Chris, I problem, I was born in 1986. Tada. But the ratings should not be the center of the subway line ratings. That should be another thing for the Straphanger's Campaign to whine about, just like the cleaniness of subway cars. But, they can include that in the report because it afects every single line in the system.
you're 14? Pretty darn smart for a kid your age.
Thanks.
Chris, It's a good thing you don't vote then. However, keep in mind that many important stats were not considered in this report. Things like the percenage of 'Thru-puts', a catagory that the D line is #1 in the system. But as I said, it's all about opinions and perceptions. We'll just keep plugging away until we get it right.
Please do not take my comments as an insult to your work with the D train. The problems with the D are completely out of your control, and not your fault. Your work in makng the R68's as one of the most reliable car classes is commendable. But as long as the D has to use an overburdened Manhattan Bridge, it will always diminish the performance of the entire line.
If you believe the Straphangers report (which I realize is asking a bit), the worst line in the system is one with those rusty old Redbird, and the best line in the system is one with those rusty old Redbird.
Going by that, you have to assume there are other things besides new trains that make the difference between a good line and a bad one. Outside of their slowness (OK, alleged slowness), the R-68s are among the most confortable cars in the system to ride on, but as you say, so long as the D train faces the three-line bottleneck between Rockefeller Center and DeKalb Ave., having the nicest train in the world isn't going to make up for other infastructure problems.
Getting the R-142s going on the 2 and 5 lines will undoubtably make things a little more comfortable for its riders, especially during the summer months, but there are other things, like more trains per hour if possible, that go into making any single line better for its riders.
, but as you say, so long as the D train faces the three-line bottleneck between Rockefeller Center and DeKalb Ave., having the nicest train in the world isn't going to make up for other infastructure problems.
This is a very perceptive observation albiet the locations are a bit off. The real bottlenecks are 145th St., Columbus Circle and DeKalb Ave. The reason is politics. 145th St & Columbus Circle are 8th Avenue towers so 8th Avenue trains (A & C)get preverence over B & D 6th Avenue trains. By the same token, DeKalb Avenue is a BMT tower and B & D are IND trains (Don't ask about the Q) and so BMT trains get preference there.
I never realized the Eighth Ave. towers had "route bias" towards the A and C lines before. I was thinking the main problem would be between the merging of the Q with the B/D at 47th-50th and the switching between the B and the D/Q onto the bridge track north of DeKalb.
Chris, I didn't take your comments as an insult. We're subject to so many internal & external surveys, we become thick-skinned. There is something called a PES (Passenger Environment Survey). These good people will go to Columbus Circle and rate the cleanliness of the cars. This makes little sense as it may show the cars are dirty but it's meaningless as it doesn't reflect how the car left the terminal. My real concern is how well my primary customers are satisfied with our product.
>>> There is something called a PES (Passenger Environment Survey). These good people will go to Columbus Circle and rate the cleanliness of the cars. This makes little sense as it may show the cars are dirty but it's meaningless as it doesn't reflect how the car left the terminal. <<<
Dude;
Rating the cleanliness of the cars as they leave the terminal may be a way to see how car cleaners are doing, but if an organization is customer oriented it must check where the customers are and meet the challenge of providing clean cars there. The goal is to present clean cars to the riding public, not just having them clean when they start a run. If the PES is used just to point fingers at car cleaners it is being misused.
Tom
How? It's impossible to do that unless the NYCT staffs one car cleaner in each car, and when they see garbage, sweep it up.
>>> It's impossible to do that unless the NYCT staffs one car cleaner in each car <<<
Once you take the position that it is impossible to solve any given problem you stop looking for solutions, and sure enough it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that the problem cannot be solved. You have mentioned one solution (although completely impractical). There are others, including training riders not to be such slobs through public relations campaigns and enforcement of anti-littering laws.
Tom
But, the riding public will always be dirty. If it's not there's they won't care. There won't always be someone on the train ready to ticket someone, just as there won't be a cleaner to clean the train riding in the car.
>>> the riding public will always be dirty. If it's not there's they won't care <<<
Once again, I will point out that if you think it is impossible to change the habits of the riding public, it will be impossible. Changes can be made although they will not happen overnight.
You don't remember it of course, but in the early 50's there was junk and litter strewn around all the roads of the country. Various jurisdictions started passing anti-littering laws with substantial fines, and publicity was given to "beautifying" America. The result is there has been a big improvement. Although there are still some litterbugs on the highway, now it is the exception rather than the rule to see people dumping their fast food wrappers, cups and soda cans out of the windows of their cars.
When I was regularly attending movies, it was considered normal to purchase candy, soft drinks and popcorn, and just leave all the wrappers, cups (even if not completely empty) and other debris on the theater floor. When I was in Europe I was surprised to see clean theaters without sticky floors where the movie goers took all of their debris with them. Recently I went to a movie in a theater that had large trash receptacles at the head of each aisle and numerous signs saying "please do not litter" and "deposit trash here". Although the theater was not completely without some debris on the floor, it was much cleaner than earlier ones I went to, and at the end of the show, so many people were depositing trash into the receptacles that the receptacles were almost full.
These are examples of changing public behavior, there no reason to believe NYC subway riders can not be persuaded through the judicious use of the carrot and stick approach over an extended period to change their behavior.
I haven't been there to see it, but I have read that Rudy's quality of life law enforcement of minor violations has created changes in New Yorkers' public behavior. I know by reading other posts that he appears to have no interest in what goes on in the subways, but it is proof that change can be achieved.
Tom
Ahh... I see.
Clean cars 'where the customers are'? Here is the only way this could happen:
At Times Sq, and Grand Central, Have everyone stand up and leave the train so car cleaners can mop the floor, wash the windows, pick up garbage, etc. This will take approx 5 minutes, during which time the trains behind will be waiting to enter the station, filled with irate passengers, who will soon have to get up and stand on a hot platform for 5 minutes.
Or, have someone run through the train during rush hour with a cattle prod (to move the standing passengers) picking up garbage. If a spill is located, the train is taken OOS immediately, and for the next few stops the cleaner mops the floor and/or seat until it is nice and clean. Then, the train returns to service.
Well, they COULD install spray units that run every six minutes or so, like those misters in the produce department of your friendly neighborhood ShopRite :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But the condition in which the cars leave the terminal is irrelevant to your real concern, of "how well [your] primary customers are satisfied with [your] product." No, you have no direct control over the conditions between the terminal and Columbus Circle. But to a passenger who boards at Columbus Circle, it doesn't matter if the car was sparkling 45 minutes ago at the terminal if somebody just spilled his lunch all over the seat on the CPW express run.
Ah, but who are my primary customers????
>>> I can attest to the complete innaccuracy of this report. Any critical review of the subway system which does not focus on the Manhattan Bridge fiasco as it's # 1 problem needs tobe dismissed. <<<
Chris;
What is so inaccurate in the survey? Did you read it? Since the base year of the survey is 1996, and the Manhattan Bridge problem far pre-dates the base year, you should not expect it to show up in the survey.
Tom
Your falling into the trap of defending this report because it sticks to parameters that they have arbitrarily decided on themselves. You cannot discount the bridge problem simply because it's existed for 14+ years and we've gotten used to it.
>>> Your falling into the trap of defending this report because it sticks to parameters that they have arbitrarily decided on themselves <<<
Chris;
This is not a trap. Any scientific study must have parameters, and those doing the study choose the parameters. They have chosen to compare service to 1996 levels, and they indicate that they are using these parameters because the data is available. If you or anyone else wants to do a study comparing service to 25 years ago you can (assuming you can find pertinent data), but why knock this one? It is like criticizing a movie which does a good job of telling a story because you would like it to tell a different story.
Tom
So then why is 75 cents the baseline?
If they compared modern service to 1982 service, then 75 cents would make sense (pun not intended).
>>> why is 75 cents the baseline? <<<
75 cents is not the baseline. 1996 service is the baseline. Present service that falls into the 50th percentile of the base line service is said to be worth ½ the fare value.
Translating the final results into dollars and cents is really a P.R. gimmick to get the media to talk about the study. They could have just as easily published the percentile levels of each line, which would have been the more scholarly way to present the results.
Tom
[As I've said before, "Opinions are like arm pits. We all got 'em & they all stink."]
I've heard that expression before, but in reference to a different body part.
Yup but as I've said before, my 8 year-old grand-daughter (a train buff) sometimes peeks in.
>>> This survey has no scientific basis and is wholely opinion-based. <<<
Dude;
Why do you say this? They are using MTA figures in each area, and making comparisons to similar figures provided by the MTA in 1996. The methodology seems basically sound and scientific. Their main conclusion is that service has deteriorated since 1996. From what I read on this board that is not such an impossible conclusion.
Tom
How can it take more than an hour to go to downtown Manhattan from Woodhaven if the running time is 54 minutes from one end to the other. I've worked the J during rush hours numerous times and have always been on time. I don't believe a thing this organization says. The J and M lines are the best!
I've only been on the J a few times but I think the trains are in good condition and it's not that slow. It's one of the best El' lines to railfan on, and I absolutely love the railfan window of those R42's. I like R42's alot, they are pretty damn fast (if they just used them on the other division). They are pretty quiet too, and the train I was on was very clean.
Only drawback is I wish I would run more often.
( I like R42's alot, they are pretty damn fast (if they just
used them on the other division). )
I meant the BMT Southern (not eastern) division. It would be nice if they used some R42's to replace some of the older R32's on the E.
I remember an R42 I had on the L was very fast through the 14th street tubes.
Does the TA have any plans on using R42's outside the eastern division?
When the R-143s come in, all of the R-42s they displace would go south for service boosting.
That won't be many. First, all the slants will go to CI (they only use them on the L). Then, the R-40Ms, since there aren't as many as R-42s (they might try to get away with removing the R-40 entirely from the Eastern Division).
Damn it! I forgot the / before the B! Now I can no longer claim to have never forgotten to close my tags! Well, I didn't forget to close them, I just made a typo.
When the R40s all go to Coney Island Yard, they will run on the B. The R68s and R68As will be back on the Q in anticipation of the 63 Street connection opening and the whole Manhattan Bridge garbage.
Where did you get this?
The proposed plan listed on Joe Korman's site was made BEFORE the B-Q car switch, so it was written with different plans in mind.
That's where I got it. I'm assuming that the R68s/R68As will return to the Q Line to roll up some miles on them. The Q Line after being extended will be longer that the B Line.
The R-42 seems to be an unpopular car around these parts. I'm not sure why. I like the R-42.
The J is a fast line -when there is no track work disrupting the express run from Mrytle to Marcy.Plus I would rather see the r38's switched over to the east and put the R42's on the A
The J is not fast at all. The multitude of curves and the new signal system have made riding the J an ordeal.
And those awful R38's better not even show their faces on the Eastern division.
The express run from Myrtle to Marcy is the fastest run on the J/Z. Everywhere else (including the opposite direction) runs pretty slow.
>1/9 $.75 (Isn't this the 'showcase' line of the system?)
"We are the No. 1 the Pride is Back!!"
:)
1SF9
A few weeks ago, somebody posted a comment about a sudden increase in the incidence of both sick passengers and cord pullings. In response, I suggested that, if a Straphangers survey appeared within a few weeks, we'd have a good idea of who was actually responsible for those "sick" passengers and cord pullings.
GUESS WHAT?!?! It seems that the Subsidized Complainers Society has indeed been up to its usual pranks - i.e. sabotaging service in order to make money by complaining about lousy service. The subway system already has enough problems without this self-advocacy group making things worse.
Why has nobody else noticed this? Why has nobody investigated them?
(Straphangers sabotage during survey..Why has nobody else noticed this? Why has nobody investigated them?)
I can be pretty cynical, but that's a bit much even for me.
Not if you knew Gene Russianoff. He's Ralph Nader, only not as moderate ...
[Why has nobody investigated them?]
Probably because nobody takes them seriously. As far as I'm concerned, the Straphangers are a bunch of whiners.
>>> Subsidized Complainers Society has indeed been up to its usual pranks - i.e. sabotaging service in order to make money by complaining about lousy service <<<
This does not make much sense in the context of sick passengers and the pulling emergency cords. The data used was MTA data for delays caused by mechanical breakdowns of equipment. Sick passengers and false stops caused by passengers were not included.
Tom
This entire report is bogus and worthless. I read with amusement their "rankings" of what a ride is worth. Since it costs the MTA over $2.50 to accomodate every paying passanger, every subway rider gets a real deal. And if the #7 is so great, then why doesn't it rank a full $1.50?
>>> And if the #7 is so great, then why doesn't it rank a full $1.50? <<<
Chris;
Here is the explanation of the how the Line Ratings were determined:
"Finally, we converted each line's summed raw score to a Straphangers Campaign Line Rating. We created a formula with assistance from independent transit experts. A line scoring on average, at the 50th percentile of 19 lines for all six performance measures in 1996 (the baseline year) would receive a Line Rating of 75¢. A line which matched the 95th percentile of this range would be rated $1.50."
A more formal explanation is in the Appendix to the Survey.
Tom
And so how can there be only 4 lines that are ranked less than average?
>>> how can there be only 4 lines that are ranked less than average? <<<
Alex;
Since they are comparing present service to 1996 service, it could all be above or below the 1996 average.
Tom
Pure technobabble. They are using their own arbitrary system to rank each line to their own standards, not actual performance.
I was riding a Manhattan-bound 7 train yesterday. It stopped at Vernon-Jackson. The doors stayed closed for about 45 seconds. I heard the double buzz come from the cab. Then I hear the conductor's voice over the PA: "I can't get this stupid window open!" The T/O replies "OK." We wait another 30 seconds before the doors open.
I've seen that happen to a T/O on the Q Line when he had to punch a line-up. But, the doors were open and he just walked out to punch it. Then, every other stop to the terminal, he was using the shoe slipper and banging it against the "lock" part of the window. When he got it open it was already the end of the Line. Couldn't the C/R on the 7 Line just walked to another cab and open from there?
I'm sure it would be easy enough to go from the 5-6 position to6-5 safety wise..assuming it was ll cars. Operating rules required setting brakes in emergency when changing positions; of course I'm going back a long ways. It would take way longer, perhaps 4 minutes to change positions than to fight the window.
[assuming it was 11 cars]
The train was 10 cars long.
Well, yes, but then he wouldn't be lined up with the "safe to open doors" marker board in every station thereafter, and that would be a (safety) violation ....
--Mark
Yeah, he'd have to go for a short walk just to point.
Pardon my ignorance, but is it a written rule that the conductor's cab window must be open before the doors can be opened?
In his post, he says that the doors were closed for 45 seconds.
I think the conductor needs to slide the window down and then point to the "doors safe to open" board on the platform before he can open the doors.
The window has to be open so when the conductor closes the doors, he can look out the window for 3 car lengths as the train leaves to prevent dragging incidents and ensure all is OK.
--Mark
Well today, the C/R on the E yelled over the PA 'Partner, the window's still stuck! I called command and they don't seem to care.' She gets it open, and leaves it open for the rest of the trip (killing the A/C in the car.)
How does having an open window in a cab (behind a closed door) kill the A/C in the rest of the car?
They don't always close the door. On corner cabs, the C/Rs usually step out and lean on the storm door or sit down on the adjacent seat.
Yep, especially since there's no A/C in the cab!
You're right, they sure do. If they have to switch sides, they'll move to the adjacent car as the train pulls into the next station.
The window needs to be open before the conductor can close the doors, so he can make sure nobody's caught in the doors. But why can't he open them before fighting with the window?
It's a rule.
So if the train must leave immediately (ie: propane tanker about to hit the el structure) the C/R is not caught with his pants down doors open and window shut.
A tractor-trailer unsuccessfully passed under the Flushing elevated at 55th Street today. The trailer's roof peeled off like a can of sardines opening. The trailer is 13'6" tall, while the the cross beams for the elevated hang 12'2" or 12'4" above Roosevelt Avenue, according to the signage.
[The trailer is 13'6" tall, . . .]
Ahhh, Not any more! More like 12' 2" now.
The trailer *was* 13', 6" tall.
*Now* it is 12', 2" tall.
I saw a truck do this on the Meadowbrook Parkway one time.
Told the driver "Now you know the difference between a parkway and an expressway." I still do not believe he was amused.
Elias
The 10 1/2 foot high railroad overpass bridge on NY 370 between Syracuse and Liverpool is great for this kind of thing. Trucks go shooting off I-81 onto the 370 ramp, and then the tops of their trucks go shooting off about a mile later.
It's a real shame nobody publishes maps for truckers showing the heights of underpasses, etc.
Actually, they do - my son-in-law has a series that show height restrictions on every major (i.e. non-residential) road in the parts of California, Nevada, and Arizona where he drives. I assume they exist for other places as well. The information is also part of at least one of the satellite navigation systems being offered nowadays.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some roads even have electronic sensors that trigger flashing lights to warn trucks and other high profile vehicles before they get to the problem underpass. Unfortunately, sometimes even the flashing lights are ignored, with the predictable results.
Right. I've seen a couple of those in my travels, although at this moment I can't remember exactly where. I used to pass one on a regular basis - aargh! it aggravates me that I can't remember where - that often flagged my car (I drove a Mercury Topaz in those days) as over height, though, when it wasn't even close.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The entrance to the lower level of the Verrazano (Brooklyn bound) has a sign stating, "if these lights are flashing, stop here" for trucks that are over 14' 2".
--Mark
Is there a warning about the low clearance on I-81? (I've never ventured north of I-481/NY 481 on I-81.)
Yes, it's posted at the NY 370 ramp off I-81 and at the Liverpool end as well. They've readjusted the road there when they built the Carousel Center (a big mall on an old toxic dump) and the new P&C Stadium, so the exit onto 370 from I-81 is not the straight shot it used to be under the old set-up, when I-81 veered slightly to the west then curved back to the east. Maybe the change will help the situation.
Oh, sorry, I guess I have been past NY 370 -- I was thinking it was well north of Syracuse. That cluster of exits around the mall is somewhat strange. (I didn't know the mall was on a toxic dump.)
We've got the same thing in Chicago where the UP (nee C&NW) Northwest Line is on a viaduct right next to the elevated portion of the Kennedy Expressway at Irving Park Road. If you're coming down Irving Park from the west, you see the railway and its height sign first and realize it's a tight squeeze. But if you approach from the east, you see the expressway first and you don't realize there's no clearance ahead until you get there. Yes, there's a height sign on the east side of the expressway marked with the lower railway height. Apparently *some* truckers, seeing only the standard-height Interstate bridge in front of them, presume the sign is in error.
Sometimes, the truck drivers see the viaduct coming up before its too late. Then, they have to make a U-turn, tying up traffic in both directions for several minutes. But at least once a week, they don't see the viaduct until its too late, or don't think they can turn around, and they try to go under it slowly. That's when they wedge themselves in good and tight under the railway trestle. I've never seen them going so fast that they sheared off the roof of the trailer, though. With all the cross streets and traffic lights there, traffic on Irving Park Road is rarely going fast enough for a "steel haircut". :)
[[The trailer *was* 13', 6" tall.
*Now* it is 12', 2" tall.]
[I saw a truck do this on the Meadowbrook Parkway one time. Told the driver "Now you know the difference between a parkway and an expressway." I still do not believe he was amused.]
Of course, nobody in the vicinity of 55th and Roosevelt would have been amused if the truck had been a propane tanker :-)
Tankers are not very high. And supposedly those lisenced to carry haz mats won't do such dumb things.
***BOOM***!
With a semi, it would be:
Whooooops!! CRUNNN-NNNN-NCH!! Oh, $#^%$@!#@$$%!!!!
The same thing occurs from time to time in Radnor, PA, where King of Prussia Road goes under Amtrak (former PRR Main Line) and the west end of the platforms of SEPTA's Radnor station.
This also happened about 6-8 months ago where I-76 goes underneath the old PRR Trenton Cutoff right before the King of Prussia exit. Someone tried to take an overheight piece of machinery or construction equipment under the bridge. A piece of it got sheared off and went through the windshield of the car behind, killing some poor woman who was out driving with her fiance.
Peace Street RR overpass (ex-Southern Railway, now NS) in Raleigh, North Carolina. It measures at 13'10" as you go under heading westbound, but in those 15 feet the clearance becomes 12'4" due to the steep grade. So they get caught on the center girder or the last one rather than the first. A few years ago it was the second-favorite wino hangout in town (before the police cleaned up the area) and they had a field day when a truckload of California's finest fermented grape juice hit the bridge and peeled open, ripping open a side door of the trailer in the process. A couple dozen cases were liberated before law enforcement arrived.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My Dad and I had to figure out how to route a 14", many-ton truck to our house in that area from Lancaster Ave. This was before the new bridges were built on 320 and County Line road, over the R5 and P&W. It was not easy!
Yesterday I heard on the news that an Amtrak cop shot a mentaly unstable man who threatened another officer w/ a chair. The man had been ranting and raving and disturbing patrons in the food court. When the Amtrak cops tried to remove him he got voilent. Well after hearing these facts I instantly worried that the police had shot a railfan and possibly a fellow subtalking. I mean all the signs are there. Hanging around train stations, disturing other people, tried to be removed by Amtrak police, ranting and raving (probably about obscure train information that nobody else could understand), etc. I think we should conduct a roll call here at subtalk to make sure no body is missing.
Well, you're still posting, so it's fairly obvious they missed :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only complaint about the 30th Street stataion is that there is no direct access to the Market-Frankford El.
Chaohwa
Such a connection would present a problem for law enforcement. Namely who has jurisdiction (Amtrak or SEPTA) to beat up/shoot the homeless who will live in the connection.
There used to be two or three escalators connecting the southwest corner of PRR 30th St Station with the Market St Subway 30th St station, but the underground passageway had some 90 degree turns and presented security problems.
Bob
It also had really l-o-n-g escalators to the under-track passage. One day a group of us were in Philly for a streetcar fantrip in the early 60's. When the trip was over we were returning to 30th Street to get the PRR to home (Baltimore). The escaltors were not working, so we had to walk up and we didn't want to find the stairs, so we walked up the "moving stairs" (PRR term). AS we got to the top, the number of bodies started the escalator to s-l-o-w-ly start going down. It started to move a little faster, so we just stayed on until we were back at the bottom. We got off and found the stairs.
That's putting it very mildly...
As far as the connection goes, it may reappear, as Amtrak and the City are looking into a new direct connection minus many of the bends, etc.
Hey now! you gotta love these surveys. Be proud to live up in the Bronx. For 40 years it's been one thing after another.If it's not burning tenements it's fatal police shootings. If it's not greedy landloards, it's crooked politicians. If it's not Carter and Reagan at Charlotte making empty promises now the #5 is the lousiest ride in the whole system.
Hahahaha. You have to laugh about it. don't you!!!
The C, D, 1, 2, 4, and 6 trains go up to the Bronx also.
Whoa? Where have you been. The C doesn't run up to the Bronx anymore. The B and C Trains switched terminals. The B runs to the bronx now.
I stand corrected.
It is now the B that runs up to the Bronx.
I use the IRT lines mostly. The last time I picked up the D at Kingsbridge Road was back in 1987. Ancient history. I remember the C was still running the dark green R-27/R-30's (?).
It was R-10 not R27/R30's. R27/R30 never has dark green cars only R10 does.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
10 R33's were painted that shade of green in 1987. They were later repainted the familiar red ...
Actually, it was earlier than that. Try early 1985. 10 R-33s along with an R-17/R-21 pair were repainted. A Greenbird is an interesting piece for a conversation....
-Stef
I didn't know that. Prior to 1987, I never saw these cars anywhere.
Never say never.
The R27/30 cars were dark green when they came from the factory.
If the R-27/30 NEVER had dark green cars, would you kindly explain this picture?
CLICK HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi ANDEE the R27/30's were delivered in that olive drab green, thats
why the TA painted that R-30 in the as delivered color.
Till next time JOSE R-29
Simple, Note the bench seating. This car was wearing Olive drab livery for homeless veterans using it as a sleeper on the Far Rockaway Branch.
Next question.
avid
Im talking about in the 80s not the 60s. They did delivers dark green cars back in the 60s & the 80s they repaint to red not green.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
But in your post, you said the "R27/30's were never green".
Never means NOT EVER. But they were when delivered.
The question that Bx New Flyer Artic Guy say "I use the IRT lines mostly. The last time I picked up the D at Kingsbridge Road was back in 1987. Ancient history. I remember the C was still running the dark green R-27/R-30's (?)." My question is It was R-10 that had green cars after GOH until retired around 1989 than R27/30 took over R-10 that had red cars not green. I know when R27/30 deliver dark oliver green cars back in the early 60s to blue sliver than ugly graffiti went to GOH to Red in the late 80s until retired around 1993 replace R32/38 cars on C line. Now don't get me wrong OK!!!!!
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Then you should make yourself clear, you said the R-27/30s were never green.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I was under the impression that in-between the olive-green style with which the R-27/30’s first arrived on N.Y.C.T. property and the institution of the blue-and-silver “MTA” paint style (translation: circa 1969), certain if not all R-27/30’s were painted bright red (an example found here), not unlike some IRT R-12 through 17 cars in that same period, kind of in the manner of the R-29 through 36(ML) classes when first débuted on the system.
Your impression was correct.
They were painted solid red in the late 1960's, as were some IRT cars. THEN they became the MTA blue/silver scheme starting in 1971. And then they went to red -- the present "Redbird" type scheme with the black trim (end gates, side sills) and the slver rooftops.
The R-27's/30's, as well as the R-16's, R-21's, R-22's, R-26's, R-28's, and even the R-1 through R-9's were dark green in their original livery. Many IRT LO-V's cars were, too. Perhaps what you are referring to are the GOH color schemes; R-27's and R-30's were never painted in the green body/black bonnet, silver roof color scheme that the R-10's received in their last years. (The R-27's/R30's were repainted in "Redbird" colors.)
To bad that the R-10 didn't get its original paint scheme back in its final years; the two-tone dark blue/bluish-silver with orange stripe design was spiffy looking when kept clean. As a kid in the 1950's, prior to advent of car washes, I had no idea that any subway cars were painted anything other than black. Even the dirty R-10's looked black, although for some reason, the orange stripe under the window was visible through the grime.
I liked the teal-and-white R-10 scheme best, especially the earlier one with the teal racing stripe beneath the belt rail.
I also remember the olive drab paint job on the postwar cars you mentioned. Some of them were painted red before the silver-and-blue scheme took hold.
** . . . now the #5 is the lousiest ride in the whole system.**
Perchance this might have a bit to do with the fact that the 5 train has among others the R-28’s which (correct me if I’m wrong) are now the oldest cars in the system (I haven’t seen an R-26 on the rails in some time)?
The R26/28's on the #5 aren't significantly less reliable mechanically than the R36WF's on the #7, which rated #1 on their list.
More evidence showing this entire survey is a gigantic pile of Krispy Kreme donuts ...
Either that, or the age of the cars used isn't the survey's primary (or secondary, or tertiary) concern.
The R26s (#7750-7849) are still out there, toiling and rusting away.
They're in terrible shape. The R28s are bad but better; the R29s are just as bad as the R26.
wayne
Oh, of course. For some reason I forgot for a moment the numerical order of the R-26’s.
On my last visit to the city in March I was almost a daily commuter on the 5. I can't see what the problem is in terms of regular service. I had no problems with car equipment nor delays nor dependability. Either on the 2 or the 5. The thing I think stinks is all the trackwork related delays. Here it is Sunday, the 5 shows up just as I got to the platform at 125/Lex,great. Signed for l49th/3rd. OK, the 2 is right behind, to East l80 St. then wait 22 minutes for a shuttle. longer than the whole ride, or almost. The trackwork was on the southbound around 174 st I won't ask a lot of silly questions but wasn';t happy about that long wait. (2 and 5 could have used the express thru there and had full service.) Then waiting and waiting in middays for a shuttle and then waiting for a connection at East l80 st. Normally things were fine in my book; and as an ex-Bronxite from what I can see the Bronx is now as good as any other borough, possibly except Richmond. Maybe I'm blind by choice but I couldn't see the problems with train service..only the silly track work changes.and way too much time lost on account.
Actually, I think the work is now on the Dyre, requiring one track to be taken OOS at a time. The shuttles can't run any more frequent with only one track, and cutting 5 service to every 1/2 hour middays would inconvenience all. Using the test track for one direction is out of the question, since there are no signals (and for some reason we can't trust T/Os to slow down if they see a train ahead, even though its a straight line).
Hello all,
For those of you who responded to Mark W. regarding the Coney Island tour...
The trip will not be on 8/5!
Unfortunately the Transit Authority cannot accommodate us on 8/5 due to work being performed in the shop building that weekend. We will have a rescheduled date within the week.
So unfortunately if you have made travel arrangement I am sorry to have to say this.
However, if you are going to be around anyway on 8/5 there are some alternatives. The Urban Transit Club is meeting that night and it is supposedly their "members slide show night" with lots of goodies being shown. Details on the UTC are here.
By the way if you are reserved with Mark W for the trip, he has informed me that it will be "donation requested" for the museum car fund. If this were a Museum sponsored tour it would cost $25-40 so please keep that in mind when planning your donation. Lets do something good for the museum cars...
-Dave
If anyone is interested, I am willing to do a tour that day of one of the following:
1) The BMT eastern division. The TA has closed and removed many entrances on the Jamaica Ave. El. Several stations hve been renamed (Elderts lane for example is now 75th. Street) We could ride all eastern division lines (Broadway Brooklyn, Myrtle, Jamaica, Canarsie) I have literature that I can hand out.
2) Similar to the above but, A tour of the BMT Southern division instead (5-Culver,1-Brighton, 4-Sea Beach, 3-West End, 2-4th Avenue and 7-Franklin)
3) A SubTalk group ride on the R-142
4) A SubTalk group ride on the Hudson-Bergen line.
Here they are....Just a few ideas.....What do you all think?
i like all of these! count me in
count me in too! Where do we meet?
07/19/2000
As far as #4 is concerned (HBLR), we did that a couple of months ago. Perhaps a ride on the R-142 or 142A may be interesting.
Bill "Newkirk"
It seems like I am the only one here who is in favour of a SubTalk field trip to philly. I mean you guys have probably taken every tour and seen every inch of the NYC system (after all most of you live there). This is your chance to really take SubTalk on a trip and my chance to actually attend a SubTalk field trip.
8/5/00: I'll organize it myself if I have to
mike... i'm down for philly on the 5th... i've been dying to go to a horn and hardart cafeteria for a long time, as well as riding the bullets before they retire them, as well as riding the broad street cars before the kawasaki cars replace them... count me in...
If any of the above were still around, I'd be the first to go BUT, since they are not, Sorry to say, Once you've been there, you can stay away for a year or two and not really miss it. I admit, I used to go bi-monthly when the Almond Joys were running out their last miles. But.... I really don't think there is much to see anymore. Just my opinion.
What about the SEPTA Silverliners and the 1968 vintage PATCO trains. There are also all kinds of old 50's locomotives stored at Winslow JCT. Besides the new M4's have a railfan window.
I am not saying that it is totally not worth going and yes you did mention valid points above. I am just saying that one trip is enough for a while.
PS
I will be in Philly tomorrow if anyone there wants to hook up, Mail me.
If anyone's interested, click this link to see one Bullet Car which is still alive and kicking. I rode her at the beginning of June, and could tell she really moves, though there's not a long enough ROW at the museum to do her any justice. Wish I'd been alive during the P&W days...
Also, you may be interested in browsing the rest of the website for the Rockhill Trolley Museum
This concludes my plug.
-KP
Just a thought...how about coming to Portland Oregon and ride the Max light rail system...hmmmmmmm..?
OK, since we're on that thread, how about Denver? It's even better now that the Southwest Corridor is up and running, especially when you get to race a freight train.
Wrong board, but the Motor Bus Society will have it's annual Fall extravaganza in Portland in October. Hope you can join us, Karl M; lots of New Yorkers will be there.
Joe C.
Well having never rode a bus, maby i can make an execption,have you a date and time? we do have the deepest rail transit station in America,that would be interesting.
i picked up the 142's on schedule at flatbush ave at 8:35 this morning... i was surprised at how similar they were to the kawasaki's in appearance, as i had some delusion that they were styled differently inside... the bombardier builder's plaque was much bolder though... i only had time to ride to winthrop street... i was shocked by the number of people riding in the motorman's compartment... there were 4 or 5 workers, not executives, as well as clergymen from the major faiths ( sorry for the joke )... they were fiddling around with the announcement system as that was not always working... the air circulation system seemed to be providing a little stronger background than the kawasaki cars... but the air conditioning also seemed to be on the light side... when i went back on a redbird to flatbush, the air conditioning seemed to be barely working... are the irt cars kept warmer, as it seems that the r-68's seem a much cooler car?... again i was very surprised by the amount of support personnel riding with the motorman...
is bombardier being penalized for being late in delivery?... i seem to remember reading a post to that effect... i wonder how much pressure they are facing to get these cars accepted?
There were at least that many workers riding in the front car of the R142A trainset when I was on it last week.
I rode the R142 from Wall St to TImes Square today (left Wall St ~12:40pm, about 10 minutes behind schedule). Announcements verge on loud, which is vastly better than the barely audible ones I sort-of-heard on the R142A last week (have they gotten better?). The announcements/displays were perfect for my part of the ride.
Since the line map doesn't show local stops in Manhattan, what happens during late nights? Do the audio announcements still happen, and the map just gets updated when an express stop is reached?
The bombardier set seemed to perform better to me. i agree that the announcements were very loud and clear. this morning picking it up around 8:00 am this morning, the electric map and announcements were working fine, but on the way back up it was not working right however it wasn't reseted at flatbush ave. the ride to me was much better than the kawasaki set which seemed choppy also the styling is more appealing despite the platform is based on toronto's tc1 cars overall from a crappy company, the bombardier set came out better than kawasaki, at least what i think.
Is the color of the tile on the 8th Ave line at the 34th St. station the same as the Tile at the Utica Ave. station? Part 2 ; is the color of the tile at the 34th St station TUSCAN RED or dark brick reddish brown? Next question , are the brown colored half tiles on the racing stripe at the 14th st station on the 8th ave line stick on decals and not REALLY color tiles? Some show as white, then suddenly the next day are brown. WHO CAN TELL?
avid
What is believed to be a terrorist bomb was found on the main line tracks at Ealing Bradway station in London, where trains pass through at 125 mph. Paddington Station was closed and following several security alerts, Victoria, Westminster, and surrounding areas.
Quite what would have happened had the bomb gone off makes this enthusiast go cold.
Simon
Swindon UK
(What is believed to be a terrorist bomb was found on the main line tracks at Ealing Bradway station in London, where trains pass through at 125 mph.)
That is horrible. You know, every time people talk about terroist attacks in the U.S., they always mention the NYC subway. I think that's where people in the media WANT a bomb to go off, because none of them ride it.
Since they found the bomb intact, sounds like they have a sporting chance of catching the culprit, whoever it is. And if they do, the political implications (if it isn't a lone nut) will be interesting.
Remember when some anti-federal government wackos blew up some tracks in the middle of the Arizona desert few years ago, figuring to terrorize Amtrak? I can't remember whether they were successful in their attempt, or whether the damage was spotted prior to any accident, or whether another train suffered an unintended fate. What ever became of them?
IIRC they were trying to terrorize the host railroad's freight train, but Amtrak came through first. I don't remember any arrests being made.
If that's the same incident I think it is, then it wasn't a bomb. Rather, they had taken a section out of the rails in order to cause a derailment, and had ran wires between the remaining rails so the signalling system wouldn't detect the break. I believe it was either the Sunset Limited or the Southwest Chief that went over the break and derailed. I don't recall how many casualties there were, but there were a few. Regardless of the motives behind the act, whoever did it certainly knew something about how railroad signals work.
Of course, Jay Leno took advantage of the situation to further crucify Amtrak in his monologues, even though Amtrak was the unfortunate victim of somebody else's depravity and couldn't have done anything to avoid the accident. I guess his writers never bothered to remind him how many people are killed in car accidents each year.
-- David
Boston, MA
Yes, that's the one I'm talking about. Now that you mention it, I do remember being amazed at the diabolical nature of the incident, with the perpetrators being clever enough to fool the built-in safety systems to cause the wreck.
I still don't recall whether anyone was caught.
As far as Jay Leno goes:
a) he's not funny -- his delivery of *other people's* jokes sucks
b) what to you expect from a guy who's a car and motorcycle collector and who lives in L.A., the highway capital of the world?
No one was caught, and it's a safe bet no one ever will be.
They left the initials "SOG" at the site, which was said to stand for "Sons of the Gestapo", a group no one ever heard of. However, the initials SOG also stand for "Special Operations Group".
Someone tried to requisition sattelite images of the area at the time of the incident, and found that they were missing. In other words, there are indications of a government cover-up of some sort in connection with the incident. Some have speculated that government agents provacateurs were responsible, and that the purpose was to generate bad publicity for so-called "militia" groups. What really happened I expect we'll never know.
"Someone tried to requisition sattelite images of the area at the time of the incident, and found that they were missing."
Stuff happens. Weather satellites don't have the resolution to give pictures of individuals on the ground. And as to spy satellites, I would imagine that even the U.S. military with all its satellites doesn't have one pointed at every portion of the Earth's surface at every time, and that's especially so for a sparsely populated desert portion of our own territory. I would more expect one of Russia's surviving Soviet-era spy satellites (say that five time fast) to be taking pictures of the desert Southwest than any U.S. spy satellite.
"In other words, there are indications of a government cover-up of some sort in connection with the incident."
Corrolary to Occam's Razor: never attribute to malice what can just as easily be explained as negligence (or stupidity, in some versions of the saying).
"Some have speculated that government agents provacateurs were responsible, and that the purpose was to generate bad publicity for so-called 'militia' groups."
"Some have speculated" that we never landed men on the moon, either. And the militia groups generate enough bad publicity for themselves without any "help" from the government.
"What really happened I expect we'll never know."
Alas, *that* is probably true. If the yahoos who derailed the Sunset Limited have managed not to "spill the beans" in some honky-tonk bar by now, they probably won't.
[...and that the purpose was to generate bad publicity for so-called "militia" groups.]
Not necessary; the so-called "militia" groups generate bad publicity very well on their own behalf.
The government seem to think it has Northern Ireland connections. It was reported that the warning came from there.
It could well have been a disaster.
Simon
Swindon UK
And on the same day as the Queen Mum's 100th birthday celebration. Trying to embarrass the royals as well, maybe?
I believe it was found not far from where we stood to watch the Heathrow Epresses come through. I would agree it was probably done to upset the arrangements but everything went ahead normally, except for a colleague of mine who had a nightmare journy across London.
Simon
Swindon UK
What are trains doing going 125 mph in a tunnel in the middle of London? Was this a subway station or a railway station? If the bob did go off it would probably have been a huge disaster because those UK trains are made of plastic and tend to disinterate upon derailment or bomb impact.
[f the bob did go off...]
Please keep me out of this!!!!!
No, the station at Ealing Broadway is all above ground. Our trains do not disintegrate, they just go faster :)
Simon
Swindon UK
Then why did you say London Underground?
British Rail: Please exhale before entering our trains. You'll fit better.
The station serves both the Underground and British Rail.
We invented them:)
Does the Straphangers org have a web site where the actual report is available?
Yes. It's...
www.straphangers.org
As alluded to in the thread on Alphabet City, the neighborhood would benefit from two relatively cheap projects. One there should be entry/exit access @ Ave A. Two, adding a station @ Ave C would be useful. These are classic examples of things that should be easy to do economically. We all know that doing the entire Second Ave project will take forever plus, but these little things could be done now.
Someone was kind enough to post about this article a few weeks ago, and I was finally able to find a copy of the journal today. It's a good explanation of the construction problems/techniques for the new 63rd Street connector. The article describes why it has taken so long, and cost so much. Once again, here is the reference:
Civil Engineering
Published by the American Society of Civil Engineers
July, 2000
Page 56
You should be able to find this journal in larger public libraries, as well as most university libraries (which is where I found it).
[Someone was kind enough to post about this article a few weeks ago, and I was finally able to find a copy of the journal today. It's a good explanation of the construction problems/techniques for the new 63rd Street connector. The article describes why it has taken so long, and cost so much. Once again, here is the reference:
Civil Engineering
Published by the American Society of Civil Engineers
July, 2000
Page 56]
I don't know why they bothered to write the article. I'm not a civil engineer, yet I can tell you *exactly* why the project took so long and cost so much - because it's in New York. A similar project in the Sunbelt would've taken half the time and cost a third as much.
If this had been in the Sunbelt, they wouldn't have had to underpin the Astoria elevated, snake through a maze of water mains and gas lines, deal with clay-like subsoil, keep an adjacent 24x7 subway line going...
Well, the tunnel is DONE and Signalled, and they already have run diesel train thru (I saw one come out!), when will they put up the tunnel lighting and open the damn thing!
where can i find a copy of that mag and that article? not online is it?
No - it's not online. Followed links to asce.org .... not listed.
--Mark
I've read the aforementioned article, and the final paragraph claimed that the project is "on budget" and "on schedule."
Also try asce.org for links to the article.
It's been a long time since I visited JFK airport, so I was surprised by the progress of Airtrain. As one leaves the terminal area towards the Van Wyck, it appears that there's a two-track tunnel portal for Airtrain, presumably to go under an airplane taxiway or two. This is near the service road parking place at a complex directory of airlines, roadways, and buildings. Also, I must commend the designers for building an Airtrain route between the terminals that has long-radius curves. Too much of modern "rapid" transit is slowed by sharp curves, as on HBLRT.
Metro-North
Comet II West of Hudson
Comet III West of Hudson
Comet IA
NJT
F40PH-2CAT
F59PHI
Comet I
Comet IV
GP40PH-2
GP40FH-2
HBLRT cars
E60
Comet IB
Amtrak
Horizon and F40PH Phase IV
NYCTA
R32
R38
R40S
R40M/R42
R44/R46
R62/R62A
Let me know if you want them.
Can you tell us a little more about the drawings? What views do they show (plans, elevations, sections)? What format are they in (freehand, hardline, AutoCAD)? If they're on paper, are they drawn to a particular scale? How much detail do they show? I'd be interested in the NYCTA and Amtrak drawings if they're to scale, show a reasonable level of detail, and/or if they're in AutoCAD format.
-- David
Boston, MA
Move to New Jersey.
Nah, maybe buy a boat and operate a Hot Wheel subway.
[Move to New Jersey.]
That's an entirely workable idea - IF you are a renter. If you happen to be a homeowner, it's another thing entirely, as the huge disruptions in subway service following a complete bridge shutdown will wreak havoc with real estate values. Some people might discover what "negative equity" really means.
Besides, if everyone in Brooklyn who commutes to Manhattan moved to New Jersey, PATH, NJT and Amtrak would suffer a nervous breakdown, not to mention the longer backups at the Holland, Lincoln and GW.
Activate the Bay Ridge Branch, 4 tracks , new stations, flyover connection with the "L" line, 75 ft trains to the Willy B. at East NY , 60 ft trains to 14th St tunnel. Extension and connection to Queens Blvd at Roosefelt, and dipersal to 53rd, 60th and 63rd st. tunnels.
Most work to be done above ground with exception of Queens Blvd connection.
You figure out the who goes whereand who gives up or tightens up on what. THINK ABOUT IT!
avid
Swim
Swim in he river, its great for your back.
You go first!
wayne
And foil my plan of keeping the borough to myself?
NEVER!
That'd be embarrassing. I can't imagine the humiliation of spelling my address over the phone: H-O-HYPHEN-H-O-HYPHEN-K-U-S. That's NJ.
Can anybody tell me if the TA has been sending any redbirds to the
scrappers lately, if so please I like to know.
No Redbirds have been sent to scrap lately, with the possible exception of a small number of accident victims. Don't expect any Redbirds to be removed from service (barring serious accidents) until at least 120 of the new R-142 and R-142A cars are up and running. Even then, plans are to keep some (don't know how many) around in various yards around the city.
David
This makes me wonder -- will any "Redbird" cars be good touse for non-revenue equipment, due to the fact the most (other than the R33 singles) are married-pair cars. I don't think it would be too efficient to have a married pair set in work train service, unless there really was a need to have two cars at either end of a work train.
07/19/2000
They could possibly use "married pairs" for replacement revenue cars since they run in two car trains anyway. But that's my guess.
Bill "Newkirk"
I like to know if any of you guys have pics of subway cars at
Naporano's scrap yards if any of you guys do could we see them on
this site.
Thanks JOSE R-29
>>pics of subway cars at Naporano's...
a simple voyage to What's New
would answer this querie..
(it helps to read the site thoroughly)
There's a few scrapyard pictures on the site. Look in the table of contents for the link.
They can be used for work riders since they don't need all of that propulsion equipment.
Using married pairs as work equipment motors seems to work just fine in Chicago. I remember seeing a married pair of Budd units followed by some work cars with another married pair of Budd units on the other end.
So I'm sure it would work just fine here.
--Mark
The only ones I can think of would be fire victims #9152-9153 and #8980-8981. These are R33s. There were a handful of fire victims scrapped years ago (#9213 and #9224). They may still be on the property somewhere. Other than that, all of the Redbirds are accounted for. The full fleet of R26 AND R28 is still up and running, 41 years old, as well as all of the R29s, at the age of 39. Mighty rusty!
wayne
Most Redbirds will find their fate as fish hatcheries off the coast of Sandy Hook.
Doug aka BMTman
Kind of appropriate -- people on the Lex are already packed in like sardines :-)
This is true. Some of them are heading for the waters, others are off to the scrap line, and yet more will end up in work service. It's hard to predict what will be held for the various Museums, but if all say "I" to a new and exclusive Rapid Transit Yard at Branford, I suppose we could start lining up some of the Redbirds, one by one. Can someone supply the power for a solid consist of 10 Cars? In my dreams, I suppose.
-Stef
In my dreams too to save 10 cars or more. I don't know if Branford has the room for that many cars andthe cost to get them there via truck but here are my ideas.
The Flushing line Redbirds have single units as well as married pairs as you well know. We should try to save at least six or seven of those.
Also, do you remember the State sponsored cars for the World's fair? There were five sets from Rhode Island, Missouri, Kansas, Vermont, and Massachusetts. Perhaps those states would be interested in saving their cars.
The only museum that I think ould hold all of them are in Danbury and perhaps Waterbury, but a group of us would have to persuade the museum people to take them. I don't think the MTA would store them in one of their yards on the subway but they can be asked.
We might be able to have the MTA send them up to the museums without having to pay for transportation since they are connected to MTA property.
We have two years to iron out the logistics for the Flushing Redbirds; time may be too short for the others.
I don't know who's interested in preserving this equipment; your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps a preservation group from here in NY may save a few, being that they also have cars stored on the NYCT property at Coney Island Yard. It is also inevitable that the Transit Museum may hold some of it's own. I talked to the former curator about this some years ago, who said the Museum was going to pick out Redbirds for preservation. Times have changed since then. I'm uncertain if this is still the case.
So far, there's a pair of R-26s slated to go west to Illinois. A Branford acquisition is not out of the question, but uncertain. I have little fantasies, but that's all they are, merely fantasies. What you want, and what can actually happen are two different things.
In regards to Railway Museums, Danbury is a Conventional Railroad Museum, interested in preserving the larger railroad equipment with a New Haven Theme. NYC Subway Cars wouldn't fit in that picture. The Illiniois Rwy Museum is an exception. They preserve streetcars, rapid transit cars, and the heavier railroad stuff. Not every Museum will do things the same way. The theme of preserving equipment varies.
With the exception of the Danbury Rwy Museum, the MTA Trackage does not connect to any other Museum in the NY Area. Even if a NYCT subway car was transferred to New Haven by Metro North for Branford, the car would still have to be trucked a short distance, and this would cost money. Nothing's for free my friend. The acquisition of a rail vehicle is the sole responsibility of the Museum in question. I don't think that the MTA is into gift giving. For them to do this, they must benefit.
One can't help but wonder what the MTA has donated to Danbury. FL9 #2013, formerly of Metro North, was acquired by them recently. Did Danbury pay for the rights to the unit or was it a simple write off?
-Stef
The R-26's are coming to Illinois? Where?
Try Illinois Railway Museum. One of the folks there is interested in acquiring a pair. I hear that American Car and Foundry Equipment is hard to find in the mid west these days....
-Stef
You're right Stef. As a matter of fact for all interested, see my response to the inquiry by DTRAIN in an earlier posting in this thread.
I actually ran into the two gents who are interested in the ACF Redbirds this evening at the ERA meeting, Jerry and Ray.
Doug aka BMTman
Thank You, my good man. I hope when the ACF Redbirds (R-26) depart for Illinois, I'll get an opportunity to photograph them on the road, that is on flatbed truck, and even head to Illinois to see how they're operating.
-Stef
07/22/2000
When IRM does acquire a pair of R-26 or 28's it would be a nice touch if the TA would donate some window glass so they could replace the scratched ones. When the Redbirds all go, this type of glazing will be obsolete anyway.
I too was at the Friday night ERA meeting. IRM has stated that when they acquire the Redbirds and affix trolley poles to them, they want to run them as is. Meaning present day Redbird paint, and I assume current roll signs and retaining A/C even though this was an add on. Also something about removing field shunt?
Bill "Newkirk"
Or perhaps restoring field shunting. Not that it would matter much; they don't run their equipment much faster than 25-30 mph on their mainline.
I was there last September and if memory serves me right the electrics are allowed about 40 or a little more MPH.
I would love to be there when they have the Electroliner out on the mainline. Or the 4000s. And Green Hornet 4391 on the loop line.
Their mainline is nice and straight, which helps.
Why not the old standard North Shore instead? But I guess the Electroliner was more like an R10. With my narrow-mindedness for the old type equipment in my brief North Shore riding, 2-3 weeks, I made it my busines to ride only the oldies. Rode them at IRM last year, sorry I missed the 4000's but rode them on 2 visits to Chicago, each a few weeks inl96l and 63. They were great, North Shore too.
I wouldn't object to riding on the North Shore heavyweights. Any of that stuff would be fine. The North Shore was gone by the time I was ever aware of it, and while I remember seeing the 4000s on the Evanston Express, I never rode on them. They had a distinctly different sound from the 6000s; I could tell them apart without seeing them just by listening.
Of course; the 4000's were much like a Low-V or R9 without electric brake; the 6000's were modern for those says, made from PCC's. No air by the way. You'd have added the 4000's to the list of treasures!
The thing I remember most about the 4000s was the loud clatter they made as they passed by. I likened it to dumping a bag of wooden building blocks on the floor. There may have been some bull and pinion gear noise as well. Did they moan and groan the way the R-1/9s and BMT standards did?
By Chicago's standards, the all-steel 4000s were heavyweights at 38 tons. By New York's standards, there was nothing earth-shattering about that.
Loud clatter of course, they were heavy for the el; and the did have the classic traction motor sounds a la Low-V, etc. There were 2 kinds of 4000's: the deluxe models with the neat seating, all those box vents, etc, and the baldies built in l9l4. some had cross seats, some long seats but all rattan upholstery. They were a little lighter, I think 35 tons. No trolley poles as they had iron rooves. Both types were a blast to ride. When you think about weight they're just a bit lighter than the old IRT stuff, the only existing NYCT stuff taht's heavier is the 75 foot cars. OTOH the IRT deckrooves weight just under 42 tons and the 1904 Gibbs when converted to MUDC just under 45 tons; I think that's heavier than R44, 46,68. Heavy for small cars.
I posted this before in a thread that went to car weights:
Chicago beat everybody in 1904, when Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railway car 717, a Barney & Smith product of 1894 was burned in a fire and sent to the ACF plant in Jeffersonville Indiana for rebuilding. ACF built a heavy steel body in the Met pattern and returned the car to West Side, where it now tipped the scales at 50 Tons. Imagine the pounding that behemoth gave the L!
The car stayed in passenger service until 1952, when CTA made it Snow Blower s-308, a job for which its weight made it admirably suited. It was scapped in August of 1957.
I have an IRM rulebook somewhere. I could look up the max
auth speed, but I think it is 45 MPH for electric equipment
and 30 for diesels/steam unless otherwise authorized by their
supt of operations. Don't worry, when that pair of R26s gets
out there, the no-field-shunt-mod will be history.
Oh. Wrong part of Illinois. )-: (I'm posting from Champaign.)
I would have to go to Danbury and ask them. I know it is for railroads but who knows what might be accomplished. The museum in Waterbury is also connected to the MTA trackage.
I don't know how many cars could be stored in subway yards on the MTA system for museum use. Coney Island looked full but it is hard to judge at night from the Shore Pkwy.
Again, somebody should look into the state-sponsored cars from the 1964 World's Fair.
As for the dream to run them, why not a monthly fan trip on the Dyre Ave line. Let them run all day in regular service from Dyre Ave to E180 St. I have dreams too.
We'll just have to wait and see what occurs in the long run.
I didn't know about the Museum in Waterbury. What kind of equipment do they specialize in?
-Stef
They specialize in RR equipment from New England RR's and Conrail. I have never been to it but I have seen it from I84. It is connected to Metro-North's Waterbury branch. It is supposed to be off Exit 36 of Route 8. I got most of this info from the Steam Passenger Service directory.
[Waterbury RR museum]
[They specialize in RR equipment from New England RR's and Conrail. I have never been to it but I have seen it from I84. It is connected to Metro-North's Waterbury branch. It is supposed to be off Exit 36 of Route 8. I got most of this info from the Steam Passenger Service directory.]
You couldn't have seen the museum from I-84, as it's about three or four miles north of there (off Exit 36 of Route 8, as you said). It's also about that far from the Metro North station, and the road going there, Thomaston Avenue, is definitely not pedestrian-friendly.
It may be a railroad museum, but unfortunately you can only get there by car :-(
After I sent the response, I checked the road map directions and you are right about it being north of I84. I probably saw it a couple of years ago when it was in the Waterbury station. However, it has to be connected to Metro-North somehow.
The museum in question, The Railroad Museum of New England ( aka the Naugatuck Railroad) does indeed specialize in New England equipment. They are connected to Metro-North at Waterbury, as well as Guilford and (I think) Housatonic (via a much disused line)
Getting rapid transit cars in there will more than likely remain a fantasy, owing to the non-New England nature of subway cars, pesky FRA requirements, lack of high-level platforms and the fact that the museum already has equipment coming out of it's ears (most of it stored at a yard in Saybrook)
The Railroad Museum of New England
If you were to run a 10-car subway train at Branford, the electric bill would be humungous.
Unless things have changed, I doubt if they'd go for even two, let alone one. 20 years ago, I asked Eddie Sarkauskas about the prospects of acquiring a playmate for 1689, and he just laughed.
... to join the PATH cars already there?
Makes me wanna take up SCUBA Diving now!!
--Mark
07/20/2000
[Makes me wanna take up SCUBA Diving now!!
--Mark ]
Well if you do bring a fellow scuba diver and an underwater camera. When you get down to site with the PATH "K" cars, have your friend take your picture while you pose in the motormans cab in full scuba regalia!
Bill "Newkirk"
Ha!
Last I heard, the K-car reef was holding up pretty well.
--Mark
07/22/2000
[Last I heard, the K-car reef was holding up pretty well.]
How do you know? Somebody went down there and checked on the cars?
How about getting that "Ballard" guy who discovered the Titanic remains. After visiting numerous shipwrecks on the bottom of the ocean, won't he be surprised to see some old subway cars down there!
Bill "Newkirk"
I can picture some nautical archaeologist 100 years from now exploring the ocean bottom, expecting to find sunken ships and objects that fell off ships, and instead finding a bunch of subway cars miles out at sea. What makes it funny is imagining that scientist trying to come up with a reasonable explanation of how subway cars would end up out there.
It would be more appropriate to build an artificial reef near Coney Island using the bodies of old "N" trains. The reef could then be named "Sea Beach".
Does anybody have any real insight into what TA is going to do with the the Redbirds? Going to scrap or other plans? Anyone organizing to preserve some and how would I get in touch with them?
Hey, D! Good to see you posting again.
We have to get together one of these days.
As far as any "Save the Redbirds" plan goes, I am not aware of any orgranized group (or groups) that have formed (yet). Of course one of more of the more prominent Electric Railway museums would probably be vying to get hold of a single (R-33s) or sets (26's).
One Org. that I KNOW wants to get hold of a set of Redbirds is the Illinois Railway Museum (PO Box 427, Union, IL 60180). Address your inquiry to Jerry or Ray.
Best of luck.
Doug aka BMTman
I think IRM should go for more than two Redbirds, if they still like to acquire rapid transit cars in bulk quantities. Let's face it: they've got at least four 4000-series L cars and a bunch of 6000s (I counted something like 10 in 1996) as well as several North Shore interurbans and perhaps four Big Orange South Shore cars. OTOH, they have only one pair of 2000s.
This afternoon our resident inane thread poster, heypaul, met me at Borough Hall Station to intercept the R-142's due as the Nevins St. 6:07 train.
First observation: the train pulled into Borough Hall w/o it's route marker lit.
Second: the interior electronic routing was malfunctioning as Niered Ave. was being illuminated on the station indicator signage. This was later corrected (by time we got to President Street).
I was startled at the brightness of the interior. The intensity of the lighting is in part due to the light-colored walls of the car. We also observed a flashing yellow indicator on the door frame located about the point where the doors meet when closed. The light went out once the doors were shut. When the doors were completely open the indicator stayed solid yellow.
The storm doors which are half-doors have an interesting saftey-catch feature: the doors will only open when the right-hand handle is pulled. The left-side door handle is in a fixed position so that the clasp of the right-side door fits into it snugly. If the doors are not latched (ajar) pulling either door half will make the other open as they share a joined track(and vis-versa).
As far as the ride itself, I noticed that it was very comfortable and a bit quieter than standard equipment. The braking seemed good and acceleration was smooth and w/o more traditional jerkiness.
We noticed the train was manned by a crew that consisted of at least one member from each of the sub-contractors. heypaul and I met and chatted with a technician from Wabco who had the heaviest southern drawl I'd ever heard (real Jed Clampett stuff folks!). He was a native South Carlinian who was in town for the trial-run of the new cars. He said he'd been to the Transit Museum and was impressed to find out that his company had made braking equipment for New York rolling stock going back nearly 100 years. I wished him good luck as we elighted at Franklin Avenue (for my requisite Shuttle run to get the C train).
All in all, the R-142's are nice to ride and are a change of pace for most IRT riders. However, the verdict is out on whether or not these cars are up to snuff for the long-haul, as electronic kniks still have to be worked out. Only time will tell.
Doug aka BMTman
Question number one: Did the automated PA system play an R9 on the Canarsie Line and if so, did Heypaul sneak into the cab with an 8 track?
Question number 2: Did Lundy's provide food and entertainment for the train crew?
Question number 3: Can HeyPaul imitate a southern accent?
Last question? Did any of you happen to find station tiles marked "JAY" on it?
Inquiring demented minds want to know!
as far as the missing "jay" tiles goes, i suspect someone is putting together a scrabble set made up of station tiles...
a couple of observations from our ride on the #2 last night...
the double storm doors can be dangerous... a traveling salesman who was selling batteries and lighted yo-yos came into the car... he went out the storm doors, and couldn't get into the following car... he banged on the storm door of our car, and a passenger let him back in... we thought that he had gotten locked out... as doug explained the doors open only from the right handle from the inside, and from the outside left handle from the outside... if you pull only on one half, they are hard to open... if you unlatch the lock from the right side and then pull on both handles they are easier to open... what was the idea behind the split storm doors?
in the conductor's car, one half leaf of a passenger door was not working...
they seem to be directing a lot of energy to get the automatic announcement system working... i am curious if the energy regeneration system is working and if this is the first time that regular cars are employing this... anybody have an idea of how much energy is being returned to the 3rd rail?
it seemed that in one car, 1/2 of the car was quite warm and humid...
how do they determine if a mechanical failure is grounds for resetting the 30 day clock? i would guess that a representative of bombardier rides the train as well as the mta... frankly, the entire process of testing the trains fascinates me...
for heypaul spotters, having nothing better to do with my life, i will probably riding the cars today... i may be disguised as ronald mcdonald, mike quill, or dressed in a white panama suit as sidney toler ( my favorite actor who played inspector charlie chan )
almost forgot... doug and i got off the train at franklin avenue... and sure enough we ended up on the franklin shuttle... he never fails....
it seemed that in one car, 1/2 of the car was quite warm and humid...
There are two A/C units in the car, one at each end. One must have been broken. In older cars it would be all or nothing. I doubt this has anything to do with the new style units, but that they've been used as often as the A/C on a regular car at this point and they can break.
how do they determine if a mechanical failure is grounds for resetting the 30 day clock? i would guess that a representative of bombardier rides the train as well as the mta... frankly, the entire process of testing the trains fascinates me...
If the failure prevents the car from successfully entering service, or it forces the car out of service, the clock is reset. Day one becomes the next full day of service.
"probably riding the cars today... dresssed in a white panama suit as sidney toler ( my favorite actor who played inspector charlie chan )"
Charlie Chan say wearing white suit on subway REALLY not a good idea. :^)
>>the double storm doors can be dangerous... a traveling salesman who was selling batteries and lighted yo-yos came into the
car... he went out the storm doors, and couldn't get into the following car... he banged on the storm door of our car, and a
passenger let him back in... we thought that he had gotten locked out... as doug explained the doors open only from the right
handle from the inside, and from the outside left handle from the outside... if you pull only on one half, they are hard to open... if
you unlatch the lock from the right side and then pull on both handles they are easier to open...<<
You know, locking the peddlers inbetween the cars isn't such a bad idea. These Bombardier R-142s may be better than I thought they were going to be :-)
true. also i guess they are made harder to open to encourage non passing through cars while in motion, however i found it not hard at all also double storm doors make it safer to pass through because u have something to hold on too.
Heypaul, are you still making tape recordings of subway sounds these days? :-)
no steve... there aren't many sounds worth recording... i want to record the newark subway pcc's before they retire them...
Well another out of the way location is in Nassau county (Sea Cliff).
It has poor LIRR service with the Oyster Bay line (non electrified)
and the roads in and out are poor. Most of them two lane roads that wind and often get flooded (with the exception of overcrowded Glen Cove road, four lanes).
Major arteries like the LIE and Northern Pkwy are 15 to 20 minutes away, takes 30 minutes just to get there in rush hour.
The result is a rather decrepid town. On the road to Sea Cliff (Glen Cove avenue) there are several eyesores. There is a gas station that has been closed so long weeds have grown over 10 feet high. There are several boarded up houses and buildings, others are in bad shape.
The Village parking lot here in Sea Cliff is severely cracked, with weeds growing in pavement. However the (psychotic) people who live and run this village don't want it repaved because tree roots would be removed. Overgrown weeds are everywhere, but people in this town are obsessed with keeping things old and decrepid and weedy.
It's a little different from Alphabet City in that any transportation improvements are met with strong opposition. This also keeps the decrepid buildings standing since people don't want Wendy's or a food/drug store coming here.
There was once a trolley that ran from Sea Cliff to Glen Cove but it was removed. Funny how all the "prevervationists" don't give a damn about preserving rail services.
Everything is corrupt here. I don't even know how officials think the building I am living in is safe. The walls are not level, the outside walls of the building is not level, windows are not level (water drips from my A/C inside). Obviously this is also a problem in the city with the recent building failures that affected F train service and 7th avenue IRT service as well.
In general though out of the way locations do have problems with vacant buildings and roads in poor shape, because nobody comes there because nothing is there. It's good to hear parts of Alphabet City are getting better, hopefully it will continue. Unfortunately where I live community leaders oppose any change, only Glen Cove has gotten better because leaders there actually want to clean up the place.
You can't always link LIRR service to economy, but I know that the Manhasset - Great Neck area has a good economy because of the short commute to Manhattan. Part of what holds this area back is poor Oyster Bay branch service and no electrification.
/*Well another out of the way location is in Nassau county (Sea Cliff).
It has poor LIRR service with the Oyster Bay line (non electrified)*/
Non existant is more like it. I can't believe that it's a lack of customers thats' keeping it that way. It goes through a LOT of dense areas.
/*and the roads in and out are poor. Most of them two lane roads that wind and often get flooded (with the exception of overcrowded Glen Cove road, four lanes). */
Actually, the higher roads (Glen Cove Ave) tend not to flood, though Scudder's Lane and the stuff by the Swan Club does flood perriodically, esp in heavy rain.
/*Major arteries like the LIE and Northern Pkwy are 15 to 20 minutes away, takes 30 minutes just to get there in rush hour. */
I getting to the LIE from anywhere around there. No fun.
/*The result is a rather decrepid town. On the road to Sea Cliff (Glen Cove avenue) there are several eyesores. There is a gas station that has been closed so long weeds have grown over 10 feet high. There are several boarded up houses and buildings, others are in bad shape.*/
That wasn't a gas station, it WAS a nursery at one time. Looks like an ex gas station, though.
/*The Village parking lot here in Sea Cliff is severely cracked, with weeds growing in pavement. However the (psychotic) people who live and run this village don't want it repaved because tree roots would be removed.*/
Gotta love the Coalation To Save Hempstead Harbor....
Ever since they beat back the incinerator, they've been kinda lost as to what to do.
/* Overgrown weeds are everywhere, but people in this town are obsessed with keeping things old and decrepid and weedy. */
It's almost like CT, but actually charming. But man, are the houses there small and on top of each other. My friend Tony used to be able to throw a snowball up over his house, over the one behind it, and on to Sea Cliff Ave.
/*It's a little different from Alphabet City in that any transportation improvements are met with strong opposition.*/
Ditto for Glen Cobe. It's holding the region back.
/* Funny how all the "prevervationists" don't give a damn about preserving rail services. */
Oh, they do. they like to preserve it at the level of non service it's at.
/*Unfortunately where I live community leaders oppose any change, only Glen Cove has gotten better because leaders there actually want to clean up the place.*/
But what's holding Glenm Cove back right now is the lousey LIRR service.
/*You can't always link LIRR service to economy, but I know that the Manhasset - Great Neck area has a good economy because of the short commute to Manhattan. Part of what holds this area back is poor Oyster Bay branch service and no electrification. */
No kidding. I know the diesel freaks here will post otherwise, but it's a fact of life - the short distances between stations, hilly terrain, and plenty of straightaways makes electrification a no brainer on this branch.
Poor LIRR service is really what's killing the area. Who the heck wants to live in a region where your options are poor acess to the LIE, or slow, unreliable diesel service? If I didn't grow up in the area I would never have lived there.
[Poor LIRR service is really what's killing the area [Sea Cliff, Glen Cove]. Who the heck wants to live in a region where your options are poor acess to the LIE, or slow, unreliable diesel service? If I didn't grow up in the area I would never have lived there.]
I'm not sure it's that simple. Area growth and decline is usually caused by several factors, transportation being just one of them. While I'm not too familiar with the Sea Cliff/Glen Cove area, I suspect that it's a bit too easy to blame its woes on its relative isolation. Head out into parts of central and eastern Suffolk, especially in Brookhaven Town, and you'll find plenty of residential growth even though it's close to two hours one-way to Manhattan and a substantial drive at rush hour even to Suffolk employment centers such as Melville and Hauppauge. Personal preferences vary, and some people are perfectly happy with being in what might to most of us seem like inconvenient locations.
John has posted quite a bit recently about the woes of Glen Cove and Sea Cliff. Thinking it over, I'd say that the main problem the area faces is the lack of shopping and services. People might be willing to commute 90 or 120 minutes to work, but they're not going to want to drive 20 minutes to get to the nearest supermarket. It seems as if zoning rules and community opposition have limited commercial development in these towns. That's probably the real issue, not the lack of electrification on the Oyster Bay line.
The opposition of additional commercial development is a big part of what's holding the area back. Because of opposition, lots sit vacant for long periods of time.
For example, the run down, weed infested strip of land in Roslyn was where Stop and Shop wanted to come, but, lo and behold opposition was great and the village got an injunction against it.
Recently though it has been ruled that Roslyn village actions were illegal, and Stop and Shop won the lawsuit. The need is so strong there, the two nearest supermarkets are in Manhasset and Greenvale. And let me tell you that Greenvale Pathmark is a zoo, crowded all the time, even at 11pm. And it's be even worse because the small Waldbaums in Manhasset is closing.
Of course NIMBY's like Coalition for backward thinking, will oppose any fixing up of run down areas in Roslyn, Glenwood Landing (by the power plant), Sea Cliff, and Glen Cove.
Then you have things like the decrepid Sea Cliff village parking lot. There are cracks, bumps, weeds, and debris all over the place (pretty much like the village of Sea Cliff). My Mom's car got two flats in that lot last week. This is not good for tires, and if you don't watch your step you can trip and fall. But after all in Sea Cliff weeds and trees are more important than infrastructure.
If I ever fall and break a bone in that lot I'm suing the village.
I don't think I can change this area because people here are so stubborn about their backward preservationist thinking, by the time they realize what needs to be done it will be too late, the area will
be a run down, dump. It's well on it's way. This summer on my walk to the bus stop I smell garbage, beer, and urine. It's like the combination of Times Square subway station and the LIRR Bar cars!
I gotta get out of here.
"I gotta get out of this place, if it's the last thing I ever do"!
They did do a nice job restoring the Sea Cliff station, which was becoming a wreck....
www.forgotten-ny.com
THEN MOVE!!!!!
Although I'm not too familiar with Sea Cliff I do go through it to go to my dentist in Glen Head. (next to the station incidently) If the Oyster Bay line is the reason for the village's condition, then why are East Williston, Albertson, Roslyn, Greenvale, and Locust Manor Valley so nice??? Also, the Oyster Bay Line now has the most modern LIRR equipment, much nicer than the Port Washington Line. The low ridership and bad service on the line has nothing to do with how its powered. Its more how the line is laid out. A long North/South line after an East/West ride to Mineola. That's the same reason the West Hempstead line has such low ridership and lousy service, and it's electric.
The train was heading, cab first, 'west' near Jersey Ave, on the 'eastbound' express track at about 4:30 PM on 7-19. The entire consist: Cab car, trailer, Double-ended Acela-style engine. Testing?
The locomotive you observe is exactly HHL-8. I saw that train set testing at New Carrollton, MD last Saturday.
Chaohwa
I'd be willing to guess that the cab car in that consist you described (as a possible test consist) was the 9800, which is slightly different than the rest of the former-Metroliner/Capitoliner cab cars on the Amtrak system. Its front end was sealed so it cannot be used as a mid-train car (well, it could....but nobody could pass through). It has a conference room inside instead of coach seating, and the end striping was done very different than the rest of the cars.
Any transit photographers out there who shoot with APS type film ?? & do you like it ??
Also are there any DIGITAL transit photographers out there ?? My favorite is kodak 400
however I want to try Kodak 1000.....
Salaam,
All of the pictures I've taken and posted since February have been digital. I'm a digital convert. The digital cameras do so much better in low light with no flash than you will get with fast film & flash. This includes all of the London & Paris pics if you have looked at them.
However that being said, my preserved steam RR's of England & Wales trip in September I will probably shoot slides since it's all outdoors- light won't be an issue.
-Dave
Is your camera a point-and-shoot or an SLR?
Chaohwa
Which?
The digital camera I use is a Sony DSC F-505 aka Cybershot. It's the older version (they just came out with a F-505s or something like that). 1600x1200 max resolution, JPG only, various choices of JPG quality. 35-110 optical zoom, 110-200 digital zoom. The new version supports higher resolution, 3 Megapixel ccd, and an uncompressed option (either TIF or BMP, i don't know)- it's also $50 cheaper and came out only 6 months after the initial model. Feh.
The film camera I use mostly is a Nikon N-90s SLR with various lenses. I also have a Nikon 4004 body and an Olympus zoom P&S.
-Dave
Since you have an SLR (Nikon N90s), I am curious that what kind of lenses you use.
For me, I have a Nikon N70 and a Nikon FM10 as a backup. I use FM10 when it snows. I use three lenses.
(1) Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D
(2) Nikkor 28-85mm f/3.5-4.5
(3) Nikkor 80-200mm f/4.5-5.6D.
Chaohwa
I have a no-name 28-70mm f3.5- came with my first Nikon body kit, a Nikkor 70-210mm f4, and a Tokina 28-210mm f3.5. Nothing too fancy. I usually just use the Tokina since it is the most flexible in terms of items to carry/zoom options...
-Dave
For taking close up pictures of signals and stuff a flash and film camera works best. You get nice background contrast. Also digital dosen't give you nice timed exposure shots like film does.
It does, depending on how much you want to spend. The biggest problem I have with digital is lack of prints, and if you don't save them to something permenant, you lose them permentantly.
-Hank
Hank, and any others interested,
Check out www.printroom.com
They make photographic prints from JPG's. Quality is excellent at least at the 4x6 print size when given a JPG around 700x500 and up. Cheap too, a 4x6 is 39 cents. I haven't played around with getting prints larger than 4x6 but I suspect a 1600x1200 should be able to go up to 8x10".
I'll show you some if I see you any time soon...
-Dave
Well... how often are you going to set up a timed exposure in the subway anyway? Without a tripod, you just get blur. And you're not going around with a tripod, I hope, since that's frowned upon...
-Dave
Well i don't usually take pictures of train in the subways. I'm a big railfan remember.
what type of digital camera did you use in paris & london ??
have you ever used APS cameras ???
i been using a small digital unit. good for posting on the web etc. also have a better ink jet printer for hard copies. i save the photo to a cd now a days
you use a cd burner with that digital camera ??
& have you ever used APS type analog film ??
Im using Digital Camera Olympus D-450 Zoom with 3X optical zoom & 2x digital tele & most of my pictures came out very clear also i can collect to my computer to downloading my images into computer or disk. I have over 80 disks from MTA buses & subways images.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
webmaster: DAVE could you give me some information as to the digital camera you used when you were in paris-london because I was impressed with the low light lux results
Also I hope my floppys arrived I am diassapointed to the poor results using the epson 2500 photo scanner & TWAIN system
somehow I could not get it to scan & reproduce clear enough !!
I guess i will have to finally ""give up scanning negatives""
& take my negatives to a place called RITZ photo & have them loaded into cds & floppydiscs & take it from there !
what type & make & model digital camera did you use in paris-london ? & I thank you.
I already osted about my camera in this thread.
Post 139010
Here's a page from B&H Photo about it. There's a new version of the same model out which is why they say it's been discontinued.
-Dave
Thank you very much for the information. Sorry I had thought the floppy discs arrived that I sent to you.
I know the B&H photo & vidieo people from thier catalogs & thier appearances at the VIDIEOMAKER EXPO when it comes here on the west coast..
I did order a sony trv66 camcorder from the J&R catalog located in park row in nyc..!
The Sony ""$ 1000.oo cybershot digiatl camera is one of the best I have ever seen !!
( a little out of my price range )
I was hoping for the $ 400.oo price range like olympus or fuji with an USB port output to my i mac to a IBM formatted floppy disc etc... when I clicked on the link I knew that digital camera is one of the best !! Finally has anyone used the APS film system & how did you like it ??
thank you (salaamallah)
Thank you very much for the information. Sorry I had thought the floppy discs arrived that I sent to you.
I know the B&H photo & vidieo people from thier catalogs & thier appearances at the VIDIEOMAKER EXPO when it comes here on the west coast..
I did order a sony trv66 camcorder from the J&R catalog located in park row in nyc..!
The Sony ""$ 1000.oo cybershot digiatl camera is one of the best I have ever seen !!
( a little out of my price range )
I was hoping for the $ 400.oo price range like olympus or fuji with an USB port output to my i mac to a IBM formatted floppy disc etc... when I clicked on the link that you provided & I thank you .. I knew that digital camera is one of the best !! Finally has anyone used the APS film system & how did you like it ??
thank you (salaamallah)
Digital cameras better than high-speed film for available low-light
photography?? Not my experience. Most of them have an equivalent
ASA of 100, the better ones have adjustable CCD sampling times that
make an effective ASA of up to 400. The fastest I've seen is the
professional Fuji S-1 (list price $5K) with 1600 ASA. Usually at the
max sensitivity setting the picture is pretty "grainy" (the CCD
equivalent of grain is increased pixel noise due to longer sampling
time). I'm a big fan of TMAX 1600 (or push to 3200) for subway
work. Maybe the next generation of digital cameras will be able
to do it without flash, but it doesn't cut it in dim places (like
City Hall loop)
I certanly like the 1600 film & I will be using kodak royal gold 100 to shoot the marta trains next week !!!!
the old extar 1000 was great & the kodak gold 1600 was great also !!!!!
but in capital letters ANYONE OUT THERE USE APS TYPE CAMERAS ??
but in capital letters ANYONE OUT THERE USE APS TYPE CAMERAS ??
No, for two reasons: one, they're strictly point-and-shoot types (some are FANCY point-and-shoots, but still that's what they are), and two, they don't produce slide film in that format, which a good number of us use. In short, the versatility just isn't there. APS is the latest answer to the problem that the Instamatic was designed to solve: being too fumble-fingered to load 35mm film.
From the standpoint of taking pictures for which a p&s would do perfectly well - and that's a broad range of stuff, including a fair amount of what you see in the subway - there's no real difference between a p&s loaded with Gold 100 or an APS loaded with Gold 100. Color will be the same, speed is the same, format is slightly different but equally acceptable, especially if you're going to scan and crop anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about an IMAX motion picture camera strapped to the front of the Q, or A ? They could show it at the head of IMAX features here in town, substituting for the Cinerama-style roller coaster shots...
Caught it going southbound. A/C not cold, maybe a touch warm.
Train was in the station being held and the following message appeared on the displays
'We are being held momentarily'
'by the dispatcher'
The second line did not appear until the first one was completely off.
It didn't reset itself until the train reached 33rd st and the sign (and announcement) said 'This is 33rd street'
Have a nice day !!
i guess that one glitches too.
That's not a glitch! It keeps repeating the info it was last given until new information is received. It does the same with
1. 'Thank you for riding the MTA' (Scrolls vertically)
2. 'We apologize for this unavoidable delay and regret any inconvenience this may cause you' (scrolls horizontally)
3. 'Please stand clear of the doorways while the train is in the station' (Flashes)
4. ' For your safety please don't hold car doors open.' (Flashes)(When that one keeps flashing Don't Hold Car Doors Open it appears to be brainwashing you).
B"H
yep, it's new. my first impression as it entered the grand army plaza station was that the LED sign in front was waaaaay too intense. I couldn't read it until the train was almost on top of me. Secondly, when the train stopped and the doors opened, the 'outside the train' announcement was totally inaudible over the extremely loud noise coming from the train. It sounded like big fans/compressors. The automated announcement cmae on as the trains doors closed and gave the correct next station, and then as soon as the train moved out of the station, it switched to 'next stop Nereid Ave'...lol...at any rate, I watched the electronic sign as the conductor (or T/O, not sure) cycled through all the stops to get the thing correct again. There were several snickers from the folks on the train. To me, that was teh most interesting part, watching the expressions of other folks as they entered the train. I'm not impressed with the amount of plastic I see around...it's just begging for scratchitti. Time will tell I guess.
Nice new cars...lets see more. :o)
-yitz
yep, it's new. my first impression as it entered the grand army plaza station was that the LED sign in front was waaaaay too intense. I couldn't read it until the train was almost on top of me.
Yes, I'm so pissed off that it takes 30 seconds longer to find out the identity of the incoming train. End signs should be eliminated, one less reason for people to do stupid things like lean past the edge of the platform.
Secondly, when the train stopped and the doors opened, the 'outside the train' announcement was totally inaudible over the extremely loud noise coming from the train. It sounded like big fans/compressors.
Would you rather not have an outside announcement. I remember the same argument from people in 1997 complaining that the 2 hour limit was too little for some transfers. Fine, 2 hours too small, we don't have to put in this new feature, go back to no transfers.
I'm not impressed with the amount of plastic I see around...it's just begging for scratchitti.
As opposed to that oh so vandal proof metal in the R-6x trains. When was the last time you saw a scratched up wall in an R-44/6 train?
B"H
you are correct on all counts, sir. i defer to your greater wisdom
:o)
that external speaker feature is also on R 62's. so it is kind of ancient and not new
>>>that external speaker feature is also on R 62's. so it is kind of ancient and not new <<<
It is also subject to horrible feedback in some stations, a problem that automated announcements will do away with since there is no microphone involved.
Peace,
ANDEE
its because the conductor didn't reset the map and anouncements to uptown destinations at flat bush, then it was glitching during the ride uptown, which was kind a funny, it got so bad that bombardier had to straighten it out which only took about ten minutes into the ride.
Because of the RNC convention the city is trying to put its best fist forward and give the city a better image. The main way it is doing this is with generous amounts of paint. Everything from signals to walls to pillars and steps are getting painted. Within the last 48 hours City Hall station has been masked and has had white paint blasted onto all the crumbling concrete walls (w/ white paint dust settling on everything else). This fix up has had its darker effects too, most notable upon the railfan community. In all the MFS stations the old route maps were still up each displaying an image of an Almond Joy showing the public how to tell A and B trains appart. Now the old maps have been replaced with new and infinitly more helpful route guides with all kinds of destination/station information. But for me and several other people a tangible link to the past has been lost.
Almond Joy? Buddy this is a subway station, not a candy store.
Do you know if they replaced the old SEPTA rail maps at the 15th Street Subway Surface stop? They had this one map which showed the Subway Surface lines in Purple, which I think they should have kept them. There's also no Market East station on the map. Instead, the map shows the old Penn lines in Dark Green terminating at Suburban Station and the old Reading lines in Light Green ending at the Reading Terminal. Plus the station itself had a sign saying "Aiport Line" in black letters on a yellow background next to the standard gray Regional Rail sign. Makes people think the R1 Airport Line runs separately from the other Regional Rail lines.
I think the Airport Line should be operated with new LRV or subway cars if the city of Philadelphia really wants to put its best face forward. By the way, which Silverliner cars are being assigned to the R1. I would hope it's the IV's, being that they are the newest and in the best condition.
LRV's or subway cars won't work because they are too small. you need to wide guage of heavy rail to accomidate all the luggage.
SEPTA: Please limit yourself to 3 tonnes of carry on luggage.
SEPTA: Please limit yourself to 3 tonnes of carry on luggage.
You said you didn't like the superior^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmetric system.
Its just a British spelling, I'm still refering to 2000lbs.
It is certainly not! It is 1000 kilograms.
If you want to use foreign spelling, then at least use it correctly.
Do you pay for things in Pounds Sterling?
Do you pay for things in Pounds Sterling?
I try to, but most merchants won't accept bullion not to mention the weight.
BTW I was freaking out my British friend with the weight of US trains untill he realized I was using short tonnes. Still it didn't make that much differance.
"I can't make hide nor hair of these metric booby traps."
You were using short tons, a tonne is a metric measurement.
Mispelling is fine, unless you mispell it into a completely different word.
Actually, Philadelphia's LRVs and MFL subway cars use a wider track gauge than the Regional Rail lines. The LRVs and subway cars use a gauge of 5'2" while the Regional Rail uses the standard American gauge of 4'8".
If length and width of LRVs and subway cars is your concern, then I can assure you it's not that big of a problem. LRVs have been running successfully in St. Louis from the airport to downtown for some time now. Cleveland's Red Line heavy-rail subway cars also run from downtown to the airport and even have overhead racks for luggage on them. And trains usually are just one or two cars long.
The point is, the Airport Line should run more frequently so it can be more competitive with taxis. I've seen R1 trains at 30th Street Station that are nearly empty during the day. Those large commuter cars would be more useful if they ran elsewhere, while more efficient LRVs or subway cars provided the service.
OOPS! Philadelphia track guage is 5' 2 1/4" Market is broad and Broad is standard.
Red Arrow guage is 5' 2 1/2", or what is known as Pennsylvania Broad Guage.
The sign you are referring to is gone. Most of the signage at 15th westbound is history. Even the boarding location sign has not yet been replaced so most newcomers don't know where to stand for which line.
The Airport line, strangely enough, often operates with S II's, the oldest equipment. The yellowbird III's serve from time to time, with an occasional IV (usually on weekends when it's tied to R2 Warminster and/or R6 Norristown).
In the current era of rising population density and rising gaoline costs subway ridership and profitability stand to make significant gains. I was wondering if any of you see more private enterprise in the nation's subway systems. If rail lines begin to show profits, private industry may start trying to buy them (or build them) and I'm sure that many cities would like nothing better than to trade there bloated transit divisions over for cold hard cash. Does any of you see this happening and would it be a good thing? Does the control of mass transit belong with the gonernment or can prvate industry be trusted move people around in an effictive manor.
Welcome to the Nike Subway. All fare evadors will be forced to assemble shoes in a Brooklyn sweatshop.
You've alread exceeded you THREE new threads for the day ... does that mean that we should ignore the 4th, 5th, etc. ?
BTW, We've covered this topic not too long ago, so why not check out the archives for what was suggested, etc. ?
Mr t__:^)
What occurs to me is that more than two thirds of today's subway was built by private companies. And that if not for the BMT, the subways in Brooklyn would be even sparser than they are in Queens.
I wonder if such an enterprise could work today in Queens.
NONE of today's subway was built by private companies. The city (later with state and federal help) paid for every inch of track (including the Rockaways, where the city paid for the concrete structure that the LIRR used and the subway now uses). The IRT and BRT/BMT systems were built with public money for private operation.
David
Oh! My mistake :)
So the real question is: What will it take to get the city to build more subways already?
Andrew
A question for the ages :-)
A lot of money, and even more political will. If the will is there, the money will follow.
David
For the subways to be privatized, they'd have to be put on equal footing with cars. That means the State would have to pay to build, maintain and operate the right of way. In my view, the City should also pay to maintain stations, since they are public amenities and raise local property values.
That would leave the private operator to buy, maintain, and operate the trains, and collect the fares. Monopoly privatizations have been a problem -- the operator just cash cows and leaves a system in ruins. So there would have to be 2-3 operators. That means installing turnstiles between the divisions, recording transfers between them, and dividing the fare.
I think there is something good about accoutability, freedom of action, and competition, but nothing inherently superior about the private sector. Three competing public entities might do just as well. The big benefit of being out of the political process, in my view, is that a business would probably be able to buy those subway cars for a lot less than the TA does.
England does it this way.
One of the operators over there is the Wisconsin Central.
Go Figure.
Elias
Since parts of British rail service has been privatized, the incidence of fatal accidents has increased dramatically. Just a coincidence? I don't think so.
Judging from what I've reading, private operators have been cutting back on maintenance in order to enhance their profits. It seems as if I remember noting that the cause of one recent collision involving two passenger trains (privately operated) was traced to malfunctioning signals or switches that had been subject to reduced maintenance.
-Dan Terkell
I think that the state was to maintain the track structure, and the operators the cars and schedules.
In any event, the WC train had the green light, and the outbound local did not. His red light was obscured by the structure.
Elias
Brittian privitized the right of way, not just the service operators. Big mistake. Now the service operators are complaining that they can't offer safe and competitive service because of bad service by the monopoly ROW operator.
Goverment has to control and maintain the ROWs.
No, the private companies need to own both ROW and the trains that run on them. That way they ROW will recieve excatly the right amount of maintainence and upgrade because the company that runs the trains and knows what is needed by in the way or service improvements has the power to make those changes. The British government needs to only provide reglatory control through its own version of the FRA. Rail competition needs to be done through competing routes, not competing locomotives.
This land is PRR land, not NYC land.
How about having the MTA own and operate the entire fixed plant, except for the shops and yards? Private contractors would bid against each other for the right to supply, maintain, and staff the fleet. Each contractor would own its own yard and shops and cars, hire its own personnel to maintain and operate the cars, and put x cars in service in service at stated times for a fixed annual fee. The MTA collects the fares, pays the contractors, and pockets the difference.
[This land is PRR land, not NYC land.]
The Pemberton line was PRR; everything else in your neighborhood was PRSL.
Well the PRSL was 2/3 PRR and 1/3 RDG so that is on;y 1/3 true. I could also go by which parent built which line before the 1934 unifacation. Did you know that down near Cape May the PRR completed its line first and when the RDG was comming they needed to construct a temporary grade crossing w/ the PRR at Wildwood. The PRR refused so the RDG men snuck down one night, locked the PRR station agent in a box car and put in the crossing. The station agent escaped and telegraphed for help. The local GM sent in 200 armed men to remove the crossing. The RDG also sent in re-enforcements. It look a local judge to bring order and he ruled against the PRR.
Since this topic has gone on a while guess I'll add my 2 cents worth. The IRT and BMT were pretty much forced into bankruptcy by the politically correct 5 cent fare and regulation; admittedly the depression didn't help. Next to follow were the suburban lines although the freight lines that ran them weren't necessarily broke the "transit" service was eating profits, not to mention local taxation [which by the way the IRT and BMT were subect to].going public even at taxpayer expense saved the suburban services. The last straw was intercity passenger service and long distance; that went public with the creation of Amtrak because the railroads wanted out.I've made a short story long but the bottom line is, even if private operation might be more efficient: does anybody in the private sector even want to run passenger services?
Everybody keeps saying the BMT went bankrupt because of the 5 cent fare, IT DID NOT! The BMT continued to make a profit until the very end, the only reason they sold out was because they saw that the 5 cent fare would eventually put them away, and better to sell out sooner than later.
"Since parts of British rail service has been privatized, the incidence of fatal accidents has increased dramatically. Justa coincidence? I don't think so."
Has there really been a significant increase in deadly British railway accidents since privatization, or has there just been a change in the media's focus? There were deadly accidents when the system was under BritRail too, but:
1) Commuters are sore at the private rail companies for the usual transit system comfort and convenience issues. They existed under BritRail too, but BritRail wasn't putting out reports to shareholders trumpeting their revenues and profits. Therefore, the public is willing to forget any similar problems BritRail had and to believe, or at least consider, almost anything bad they hear about the rail operating companies. It's a Hylan thing, SubTalkers WOULD understand. :)
2) Similarly, when accidents occured on BritRail, the media could spin it as negligence or incompetence -- OK from a ratings perspective but not a real lapel-grabber. Now, with private operation, they can use the MUCH juicier spin of "heartless capitalists raking in money while people die left and right." I read the British papers (via the Web) for a week or two after the most recent accident some months ago, and that was the exact spin that the media and editorialists were using. As if private transportation companies are ipso facto death-traps while publicly-owned systems, not tainted by the evil search for profit, are always paragons of safety! (No, I'm not slamming the safety of government railways. Amtrak and the public transit systems in this country are reasonably safe, but so too are the for-profit airlines and bus companies.)
Here in the U.S., we're used to for-profit corporations owning and operating transportation systems, and in general the public, and even the media, doesn't automatically jump to the presumption, when an accident occurs, that it was due to profit-driven cost cutting. They keep it in mind as a possibility, but its not the first thing that leaps to mind. Britain has, until recent years, had all primary industries under State ownership (not only the railways, but the telephone network, coal mines, steel mills, oil production, and some others) and are suspicious of these enterprises being in private hands after being told and taught since the late 1940s that only the Government can operate these industries to the benefit of the people.
[ NONE of today's subway was built by private companies. The city (later with state and federal help) paid for every inch of track (including the Rockaways, where the city paid for the concrete structure that the LIRR used and the subway now uses). The IRT and BRT/BMT systems were built with public money for private operation. ]
Not so. Only the original lines of the IND were built with City funds alone. I'm not going to dig out the line by line analysis, but when the dust cleared, the Dual Contract Lines (Contracts 3 and 4) were built and equipped about 50/50 by the City and the private companies. A goodly number of the BRT/BMT lines that pre-dated the Dual Contracts were built with private funds. Even certain of the Dual Contract Lines were built with BRT money only--notably the currently existing Sea Beach Line structure.
This is significant in more ways than as a public/private talking point. The City's hubris in going it alone on the IND system (and engineering it to such high = expensive standards had a great deal to do with ballooning the rapid transit debt, which is one of the reasons there's no 2nd Avenue subway.
Paul is quite correct. I wasn't thinking (when do I ever?) when I said that NONE of the system was paid for with private money. However, most of it was paid for out of the public till. The IND was paid for, in (small) part, with federal funds, by the way.
David
Does the control of mass transit belong with the gonernment or can prvate industry be trusted
The question should be - Can government be trusted?
Prior to the takeover of the BMT and IRT in 1940 the government did everything within its power to bring about the destruction of these companies. The city wanted control of the subway system practically from the day it was built. Even before Mayor Hylan transit and the fare was highly politicized. No politician would ever dream of allowing the private companies to raise the fare even if it meant their bankruptcy. Finally, the city even went as far as to built the IND, which was solely designed to drive the final nail in the coffin of the private operators. The city used its political power to force the private companies to sell out at bargain prices in order to avoid further deterioration of their stock. When government wants to take over an industry -- it usually gets its way. Government's attitude then and now is "Investor be damned". And who suffered? -- the small investor. It is my understanding that Chase Bank did not settle for a discount on the BMT securities they owned -- THEY held the city by the b**** and they were paid IN FULL!!!
Ironically the city's intention in taking over the subway system was NOT to subsidize it. At the time the BMT was still profitable, and so was the IRT subway division. The city thought that these profits should go to it and not to private operators. The first thing the city did was shut down certain els -- not simply because they were ugly -- the real reason was that they were unprofitable or they duplicated existing IND subway lines.
Unfortunately as a result of the 1940 takeover we will never know how far rapid transit car design could have gone. The BMT was way ahead of its time in designing such cars as the "Bluebird", "Green Hornet", "Zephyr", Multis, etc. One of the city's first actions was to cancel the Bluebird order -- they brought advancements in rapid transit car design to a virtual halt.
In a December 13, 1993 editorial, Barron's stated: "Refusing to allow subway companies a decent profit made the subway system a ward of the city, then the state, and eventually the federal government [...] the fundamental problem of New York, as reflected in its subway system is the pattern of using public funds to lure private investment in fixed structures, which are then regulated into insolvency and taken over..."
Can the subways be privatized? I don't really know the answer to that. If one wishes to maintain a low fare then the answer is that some form of subsidy will be needed. If government provides that subsidy then government will also want control. So....
Does the control of mass transit belong with the gonernment or can prvate industry be trusted
The question should be - Can government be trusted?
Prior to the takeover of the BMT and IRT in 1940 the government did everything within its power to bring about the destruction of these companies. The city wanted control of the subway system practically from the day it was built. Even before Mayor Hylan transit and the fare was highly politicized. No politician would ever dream of allowing the private companies to raise the fare even if it meant their bankruptcy. Finally, the city even went as far as to built the IND, which was solely designed to drive the final nail in the coffin of the private operators. The city used its political power to force the private companies to sell out at bargain prices in order to avoid further deterioration of their stock. When government wants to take over an industry -- it usually gets its way. Government's attitude then and now is "Investor be damned". And who suffered? -- the small investor. It is my understanding that Chase Bank did not settle for a discount on the BMT securities they owned -- THEY held the city by the b**** and they were paid IN FULL!!!
Ironically the city's intention in taking over the subway system was NOT to subsidize it. At the time the BMT was still profitable, and so was the IRT subway division. The city thought that these profits should go to it and not to private operators. The first thing the city did was shut down certain els -- not simply because they were ugly -- the real reason was that they were unprofitable or they duplicated existing IND subway lines.
Unfortunately as a result of the 1940 takeover we will never know how far rapid transit car design could have gone. The BMT was way ahead of its time in designing such cars as the "Bluebird", "Green Hornet", "Zephyr", Multis, etc. One of the city's first actions was to cancel the Bluebird order -- they brought advancements in rapid transit car design to a virtual halt.
In a December 13, 1993 editorial, Barron's stated: "Refusing to allow subway companies a decent profit made the subway system a ward of the city, then the state, and eventually the federal government [...] the fundamental problem of New York, as reflected in its subway system is the pattern of using public funds to lure private investment in fixed structures, which are then regulated into insolvency and taken over..."
Can the subways be privatized? I don't really know the answer to that. If one wishes to maintain a low fare then the answer is that some form of subsidy will be needed. If government provides that subsidy then government will also want control. So....
www.bmt-lines.com
I was wondering if transit System use railroad style track cars or hi-railers in underground subway tunnles. A rail capable pickup truck or van has just as much use underground as it would on the surface. They would also be independant of the 3rd rail. Has anyone ever seen a hi-railer or a photo of one operating in the subway?
Attention all passengers on the platform. Please do not board the pickup truck entering on track 1 unless you want to go to New Jersey to pick 5000 track spikes.
Exhause and turning would present some minor problems. You might need propane for fuel and a reverse with mulit gears. They usually get there power from contact through the drive wheels on the rail.
The LIRR once planned a bus for service on the Orient Point Line , I think it died a lonly death. It was surface use only .
avid
Exhaust does not have to be a problem. The exhaust from diesels has long been dealt with, first with scrubbers and later with catalytic converters. Reversing might be a problem. The real question is how ffective such a vehicle would be. In real life, I've seen one in operation once on the FEC in Ft. Lauderdale. I could not see the advantage of using a truck with rail-wheels for any purpose other than cheaper transportation for RR personnel.
[I've seen one in operation once on the FEC in Ft. Lauderdale.]
During the FEC strike in the early '60's management ran one train per week from Miami to Homestead and back. I did a double take the first time I saw a new Chrysler running down the track adjacent to Rt 1 about a half mile ahead of the train.
I saw one running on the FEC ROW parallel to the Old Dixie Highway in Ft. Lauderdals about 3 years ago. Incidently, there's an FEC drawbridge just south of Broward Blvd. (around S. Andrews Avenue) in Ft. Lauderdale where you can do some great railfan photography or just plain old train-watching. You can watch from rail-level, from the walkway below the bridge or above from the automobile bridge that parallels it.
Hy-Rail vehicles don't track well backing up
Well, for starters, it would not be nice to step out of the cab and onto the third rail (ouch).
They use those things by the 100s out here, and they enter and leave the rails by the.... ah...... er...... BTW where *are* your grade crossings!
The advantage to them, is when the FRA comes to inspect locomotives, see if they have that little service sticker on them, they can just pull them of the tracks, pull up the wheels.... Oh! not sir! thats not a locomotive, that is a dump truck!
Of course the TA (unilke the LIRR) does not count each car as a locomotive, so they do not require the same inspection cycles anyway, and since they have more rustbirds than pickup trucks.... well....
Still, that 3rd rail bothers me. Do they use them on the LIRR???
Maybe the trackman's nose lights up on 600 volts DC. Or maybe that only works if you wire six trackmen in series.
Elias
I mean I'm sure that Amtrak uses them in around and through Penn Station.
On June 20 when I was foaming at Penn Station prior to riding C, 7, E, J, and A trains, Amtrak was using an AEM7 as a yard goat.
Bob
Maybe the trackman's nose lights up on 600 volts DC. Or maybe that only works if you wire six trackmen in series.
That would depend on the voltage that trackmen are designed to operate on.
The subway has so few locations where a truck could drive onto the tracks, unlike a RR with grade crossings.
The subway has so few locations where a truck could drive onto the tracks, unlike a RR with grade crossings.
I haven't seen any at all, and the tires have been gone from the Sperry car for quite some time. I wonder if there are width-clearance problems, specifically with the third rail. The rail axles are moslt set inside the tires on the hi-railers I've seen.
I once stumbled onto a cool website for a hi-rail conversion company...
Most hi-railers I have seen have the rail wheels in front of the tires and the tires actually sit on the tracks and propel the "train".
This, of course depends on what you are using as a highrailer.
Yes, pick-up trucks work like this.
Wider dump trucks and other equipment have the rail wheels inside of the the road wheels, and have a friction wheel that gear the road wheel to the rail wheel.
I have even seen large backhoes and such with rail wheels.
Elias
"Elias" wrote:
I have even seen large backhoes and such with rail wheels.
I have seen these at E.180 Street Yard in the Bronx on the #2/5. Recently there was a hy-rail vehicle next to the station with a MTA logo on it. I don't know it's formal name, but it looked like a mobile crane with a backhoe shovel instead of a hook.
---PCJ
It's just a thought, but I figure this would be something to keep in mind for maybe next summer as it would require a bit of advance planning.
Possible highlights would include:
Various CTA lines, of course, including the Loop.
A tour of the Skokie Shops complex? (Anybody have the connections to pull that off, possibly in conjunction with CERA?)
A ride on the South Shore and Illinois Central lines.
A trip out to Joliet on the Metra Heritage Corridor and then the Rock Island train for the ride back into Chicago.
A visit to the Illinois Railway Museum. (Any IRM members here?)
Just thought I'd throw the idea out there for discussion. Of course, I'd be more than happy to serve as a "tour guide" for my adopted hometown. Even if people from the East Coast aren't able to make the trip, I think there's probably enough SubTalkers in Chicago who would be interested.
Any thoughts or comments?
-- David
Boston, MA
I'm up for this...
-Dave
May as well tack it on with the National ERA Convention.
Why, is the national convention in Chicago next year? I'm not privvy to advance notice. I'll definitely go to that if it's in Chicago. I went last year and to the one in SF'96. Los Angeles this year would be nice but I'll be in the U.K. for Labor Day week.
Anyone want to join me to do Switzerland's mountain railroads, the Berlin *-Bahns and the Vienna tram system next year? :-)
-Dave
Dave
I'm not sure where the National will meet, but it seems to be on a 5 year cycle. Of course with more cities having rail system istalled, the cycle could change.
Funny you should bring up next year, my family and I were talking about vacationing in Germany. Thinking about renting a car and getting some NATO gas coupons.
Can't be a 5 year cycle. The last national ERA meet was in NYC in 1993. There wasn't one in NYC in 1998 (unless I missed it :( .... )
--Mark
[Anyone want to join me to do Switzerland's mountain railroads, the Berlin *-Bahns and the Vienna tram system next year? :-) ]
I'd be up for it. Please keep me informed.
Actually, CERA are doing a weekend of stuff Laborday too. Charter runs on CTA, a very limited visit to the "Tunnels", and the like.
Figures..AFTER my early September trip to Chicago is fully paid for, and I've asked for the off time..NOW someone proposes a field trip there for NEXT year......oh well....Just as a suggestion - if enough folks from the NYC area want to go, you should maybe scope out a group rate on Slamtrak..maybe even charter a car [and tack it on the end of Three Rivers, so all the Philly/Wash folks could join the party in Phila....]
[maybe even charter a car]
Involve the Washington DC NRHS chapter and use the Dover Harbor.
While you are in Chicago ride the Metra North line to Kenosha, Ride the streetcars for a bit then head back into the city. Let me know if you will be up here I would like to meet you.
I saw Jim K at the Kenosha opening day on June 17. He has not been posting because of the password thing but he sends his regards.
Let me know when you will be here Lou.
Joe M
Sounds like an idea worth considering, but as I recall it takes about 20 hours for Amtrak to get from the East Coast to Chicago. Speaking only for myself, I'd rather deal with a two-hour flight (as much as I hate flying) and then spend the remaining 18 hours riding the L and stuffing my face full of deep-dish pizza. :-)
-- David
A proud Chicagoan living in Boston, MA
Actually I've been meaning to get out to Chicago, so it's definitely something I would consider for next summer.
www.forgotten.ny.com
You can charter an "L" train. I read about it on the CTA website,
www.transitchicago.com. That way, you could ride the whole system,
even the connector between Blue and Green Lines. By the way, I hate using the color designations!
Of course, we would have to ride the Skokie Swift on our own because
of the catenary.
My own trip to Chicago (to do research for my upcoming book on the Chicago L) is only a few weeks away. If I can convince my relatives out there that I don't need an armed escort during my travels through the West and South Sides, then I should be able to pass on some information about some interesting transit sites to visit. Keep in mind that a two-year rehabilitation of the Douglas Blue Line is slated to begin sometime at the start of next year so some of the original 19th century stations may be gone by the time this proposed trip takes place.
Eric Dale Smith
Tuck an Uzi under your T-shirt, that ought to be sufficient protection :-)
Seriously, I drove through that part of town last December (didn't have time to ride the L, unfortunately, although I've ridden the entire system as it stood in 1978 when I lived there) and I don't think you'd have any problems in daylight as long as you have someone else with you (preferably someone big and threatening) and you don't flash a fancy camera.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i was wondering what work is allowable on the new cars at the end of the day's run... are they just laid up on a storage track like most trains?... or are the manufacturers allowed to do any remedial work on them that they deem necessary?... if they get special treatment during the 30 day period, is that a fair test of their readiness for regular service...
The train is given an erotic spongebath by scantily-clad engineers..
as they lather up the coupler they whisper gently into the automatic
announcement system how much more they like it than those crummy
old H2s.
I rode the R-142a on the #6 line Tuesday afternoon.
When it first pulled into the station, my reaction was that the outside looked rather dull compared to the shiny R-62a cars. A different variety of stainless steel? Also, the roof was covered with spots of some kind - bird droppings? - and had some sort of open compartments in it.
Inside, the white walls do make the car seem brighter, and the see-through car ends (windows in the double storm doors and door pockets) make the cars seem wider.
The seats look similar at first to the seats in the Redbirds, but they aren't the same. In particular, they are not as deeply "scooped" to accomodate the human seat, which means they are less comfortable. There is also a curious "bump" in the backrest portion of the seat, about halfway down. If this is someone's idea of ergonomics, it doesn't work. Or perhaps it's not supposed to? I mentioned this later to a conductor on a Redbird, and he suggested that the seats may have been deliberately designed so people would not get "too comfortable" in them. Any truth to this?
The route map and automated train announcements seemed to be working fine. For those who haven't seen it, the route map starts out fully lit. When the train pulls into a station, the light for that staion starts blinking; when the train pulls out, the light for that staion goes out and stays out. I guess it makes as much sense to do it that way as the opposite way. The caption under the map read "(6) Lexington Av Line". I would have expected it to say "Lexington Av Local". All transfer points seemed to be marked correctly. The automated announcements distinguished between (free) "transfers" and (extra fare) "connections" (i.e. Metro-North).
Oh yes - the inside surface of the area above the windows that holds the exterior route and destination signs is covered with a painting in what I think is the style the Russians called "Socialist Realism" - it shows an R-142 series car with heroic-looking "workers" (one swinging a sledgehammer) next to it. In fairness, I know there is a similarly styled picture in the Newark City Subway and that people seem to like it, but no one has to stare at it throughout their ride. Inside the train, in the rush hour, some people will. I think these pictures will get old fast.
my sediments exactly dyre dan. the seats on the Kawasaki set are made for lumbar support and i guess u and i are used to slumpinb in the seats, it takes time getting used to. i also found the kawasaki set to seem dull in styling.(typical japanese. look at the cars they make, no style at all) also did u notice the ride? it rode like its R62 ancestor. the signs worked perfectly and i like the bright inerior. the artwork is ok but not necessary because vandalism won't leave it be. (hope it is not on the next 1000 to come) try riding the bombarier set on the 2 u will like a little bit more (I guess) interior wise, it is the same colors of the kawasaki set and same uncomfortable chairs however the styling inside and out is much more appealing and he ride is more cushy. with my experience, the signs work fine on its way to flatbush, but started fouling up on the way to 241. i guess it wasn't reseted at flatbush for uptown destinations and when reseting it about four times bombardier personnel who was on the train got it right halfway through the ride.however the anouncements are way louder despite the dinky door chimes. also the interior doesn't have the art work which is a smart move by my opinion. unfortunately it wasn't running today 7/20/00 (i don't know why) but try catching it tomorrow. u might get a better impression (even though how crappy bombardier is. so i've heard)
I rode it, without the art work it basically provides a nice, blank canvas for a taggar to tag.
The area where the artwork is going to be the replacement ad position for where the rout map is. I got this from one of the MTA bigwigs.
last night when the daring duo, me and doug, rode the 142's, we noticed that the latching mechanism on the storm door between cars was a bit peculiar... from the inside, you had to move the right handle to open the doors, and vice versa from the outside ( since the outside left is the inside right )... today i rode the 142's, disguised as captain queeg.. the door handles on the 142a's work differently, and in my opinion, more safely... you can open the doors using either handle... it may not seem important, but we witnessed last night a dollar duracell battery travelling saleman get stuck between the cars, apparently unable to figure out the way back in... ( i think the travelling salesman was actually avid reader, who has been trailing the daring duo for weeks )
either they should put a notice on the bombardiers to push the right handle or perhaps use the same mechanism as the kawasakis... i also noticed that all the bombardier storm doors had a sticker saying "not for exit", which in the kawasakis seem to be only on the cab doors...
i originally went looking for the bombardiers at flatbush avenue about 8:30 this morning, but they failed to appear within 30 minutes of the scheduled time...
I went looking for the R-142s yesterday at 34th St about 1230. Waited for about 40 minutes and figured they were either way behind schedule or were not allowed out to play today. Got on a 2 train NB and the seat panel on this redbird was loose I picked it up to put it back in place and, lo and behold, under the seat, next to the door motor was Charlie Chans white panama hat! I figured that I was in the car that heypaul used to change into his Captain Queeg outfit. Either that or avid was up to his old tricks again! I took the hat home and my cat, Subway, found it to be a wonderful place to sleep.
Peace,
ANDEE
andee...do you recall whether you found the hat near the #1 end or the #2 end of the car?
The seat opposite the no. 2 cab end..
Peace,
ANDEE
Heypaul!!! How dare you??? You weren't riding at the railfan window otherwise Charlie Chans white panama hat would've been at the number 1 end! Unless they're running R33 Singles on the 2.
actually my question about #1 end or #2 end related to charlie chan's referring to his sons as #1 son and #2 son...
Oh, I gotta catch up. Hehe.
It could be my faulty sense of time, but I remember seeing redbirds on both the C and M lines less than ten years ago. When were they finally pulled?
:) Andrew
Those were R-30 cars and they left the system in 1993.
-Dave
Thank you, David Pirmann.
:) Andrew
May 1993, to be exact. The few remaining at that time ran on the C, usually only during rush hours.
Hello all,
I was informed that the NY Times article on Subway Fans will be running this coming Sunday July 23, 2000 in the "City" section.
-Dave
I'll read it on the Nostalgia Train this Sunday :)
Anyone else going?
--Mark
I'll be there
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, no. My advisor has a report to file Monday. I have to stay in Maryland to help him. I want to come to NY to attend the nostalgia train event, but I can't.
Rats!
Chaohwa
I don't think I've bought the NYT in about 35 years. I think I will make an exception on Sunday!
Dave, are you sure that it's the NY Times that's covering the railfan situation and NOT the National Inquirer?
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, I'm serious. The transit beat reporter for the Times has interviewed several of us for a large story on the subject. I'm told it is in "a good light" but we shall see..
-Dave
>>>I'm told it is in "a good light" but we shall see.. <<<
Always a concern, since the Brooklyn Bridge Magazine article in 1997 depicted subway and railfans as knuckle dragging fanatics one step below the rest of humanity on the normalcy scale.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> the Brooklyn Bridge Magazine article in 1997 depicted subway and railfans as knuckle dragging fanatics one step below the rest of humanity on the normalcy scale. <<<
Kevin;
I guess you're afraid that this new article won't be quite so objective.
Tom :-^)
All I want to know is when it will be run. This week, next week, tomorrow, etc????. We can get the Times in California so I can read the article. It would be nice to see of my colleagues featured in this drama. I think they'll get the picture we're an all right group.
Well, if you read back to the first post in the thread... It's supposed to run today, Sunday 7/23/2000 in the City Section, which is only distributed in the 5 boroughs of NYC. (And usually the articles make it to the web site but I just checked and it is not online as of 1:00 am Sunday).
Not on as of 1:40 a.m. either. I did a search and came up with four stories from the archives list -- a story on the No. 4 train stabbing, on the new cooling system at Grand Central, a George Vecsey column on the Mets and Braves (must have John Rocker and the No. 7 train in there somewhere) and a story slugged "Getting Rid of the Rats."
Thought that might be the Times' idea of a railfan story, but no, that wasn't it either :-)
It's up now. Have fun. (This link may become invalid at any point with no prior notice.)
Hey Dave: David Greenberger linked it on one of his pieces. I read it and enjoyed it immensely. We're not a bunch of nuts, just great enthusiasts for a great subway system. He brought the nostalgia aspect into it. I was taken back to the early 50's when we rode the subway to Ebbets Field to see the Dodgers. And when we got old enough to ride the subway outselves, we did that with gusto---even if our parents didn't approve ot it. My only criticism, and it's a minor one, is that not more was said of the fact that we railfanners are spread far and wide across the country. Some of the most fanatical aficianados don't even reside in New York City. Good show.
I was somewhat disappointed by the coverage, since once again heypaul is featured prominently.
I was so outraged that I was considering contacting the Rev. Al Sharpton who I hope would lead a "Day of Outrage" as once again, a heypaul article graces the pages of a major New York Daily.
I AM OUTRAGED!!!!!
Doug aka BMTman
Any idea if it'll be available on the web?
It would be nice, especially for all of us who are Times deprived.
(Not the fault of their marketers. I actually got a call from on of the Times' telemarketers the other evening - I actually told the woman that I wasn't interested in a newpaper from a city 250 miles away. Why take the Times when I already have the Baltimore Sun, aka the Fishwrap.)
According to yesterday's Daily News or N Y Times city rents have gone up 42% in the past couple of years.Who's got this money? Is that the same scenario in upper Harlem, South Bronx, Bed-Sty... If so does the MTA plan on revamping some of their stations in these neighborhoods.
For some reason all is well in NYC these days. Money going around like there is no tomorrow. With every up there is a down. I hope it won't be to hard for some!!!!
You've proved that there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Rents have gone up a lot more than 42%, it's just that those doing the counting feel the need to include the more lumpen neighborhoods.
Real estate prices in Manhattan have gone up about 20-30% a year for the past 4 years. What's even more disturbing is that the rate seems to be increasing.
Just to give you a personal example:
I now live on 3rd St. near 1st Ave - one Ave. over from "Alphabet City". I bought my co-op apartment earlier this year for $104K. Similar apartments in my neighborhood are now listing for $135K and up. That's almost 30% in less than a year.
The same apartment would rent for about $1400/month. And to put that in perspective, these are walkup tennament buildings with units around 360-400 square feet.
Well I have seen a few for $115K that DON'T have complete bathrooms, i.e. the bathtub is in the kitchen.
As for gentrification of the east village, it's no longer the artist/bohemian destination it once was. It's more young professionals. But on the other hand, the vast number of public housing units here prevents it from ever becoming like the West Village or Chelsea. I always see lots of families and kids of all diferent ages here - a nice reality check that other down town Manhattan neighborhoods lack. That's one of the reasons I prefer it here. I'm also only 2 blocks from the F train (transit content) which makes my commute to work and to friends in Brooklyn easy.
Real estate prices have shot up all over NYC in the past year. In my neighborhood (New Dorp) on S.I. 3 bedroom ranches on 40' x 100' lots are selling in the $250k range. One of the reasons my immediate area is desirable because we are a short walk to the Hylan Blvd express buses. Commuters from other parts of the island actually drive here to board the express buses. The market can't go up this way forever, we must be near the peak now.
So now the lower east side is pricy. My immigrant grandparents lived in a tenement on Elizabeth Street near Houston. It was torn down in the 1960s. On that site today is a luxury apartment complex worth about $30 million!
Dan- You mention the value of apartments on Staten Island. One of the things that Guliani spoke about more than a year ago was the possible restoration of rail service on a rebuilt north shore line. Haven't heard a word about it since then. Is there anything about it in your local press or does it seem to be a dead issue?
North shore passenger service is pretty much a dead issue. The west shore freight line has been rebuilt from South Avenue down to near the NRG plant, but is not operational yet, as far as I know.
(The market can't go up this way forever, we must be near the peak now.)
We may be, but it isn't yet as bad as the 1980s regionwide. In 1987, per capita income in the New York area was about 37 percent higher than the national average, but the median price of an existing one family home was 220 percent higher. In 1999, it was 37 percent vs. 51 percent (housing prices are up nationally as well).
But things are starting to take off, dangerously.
[Real estate prices in Manhattan have gone up about 20-30% a year for the past 4 years. What's even more disturbing is that the rate seems to be increasing.]
Relaxed lending practices are a big part of the reason why real estate prices have shot up on a national level. It used to be that you had to have a 20% down payment to buy a house; that dropped to 10%, then 5%, and now can be a goose egg if you shop around. I'm not sure if the downpayment requirements are any more difficult for condominiums and cooperatives in NYC, but I tend to doubt it. And even with the use of FICO scoring, qualifying for a mortgage from a credit standpoint has never been easier - I've heard that some people can qualify for mortgages but not for Mastercards or Visas. All of this means that the demand for housing is increasing a lot faster than the supply, at least in most parts of the country, and we all know what happens to prices when demand is greater than supply.
Considering how close my finances were living at low prices in Montana while earning a national scale wage, or going back to my days in Brooklyn with a low cost house, and no car payment, I guess all I can think about is what is left one one's wages to eat on? I'm going by my wages as motorman and later switch engineer. Thru freight paid a lot better but it was not a 40 hour week; in addition you were on call for most of your free time. Essentially I guess nobody can raise a family on a single wage anymore; except for those at the top.
The "real" workers such as subway T/O's, bus drivers, police officers, contruction workers, store workers,factory workers,etc deserve a much bigger piece of the pie!
Can't these rich execs spare some of their cash! Well skyrocketing costs and wages that don't keep up are a major result of de-regulation. The people should have more control over how OUR system runs. Lets start with housing development management and raising taxes on the wealthiest 5%. After all the people who keep this world running
get less than half of the wealth, and this is a travesty.
The people who you say keep the world running would not be able to do so without the money of the rich, who already pay the largest share of taxes.
Or you can continue, fueled by class envy and the natural desire of man to want more (which is something that you seem to begrudge others), preaching your wealth redistribution, ignoring the woes that those policies brought upon the world's largest country.
(Can't these rich execs spare some of their cash!)
The market is a place where the buyer rules -- no one can make him part with his cash. That means the employer rules in the labor marketplace, but ordinary people rule in the market for goods and services.
The way to make the rich execs sweat is to make them sweat for your dollar, rather than letting them charge more for less and running up your credit card bill. Price competition is the way the workers get their share of the pie. But watch out for all those mergers!
It's horizontal mergers we have to worry about. I don't think that a vertical merger, or any other kind is really such a big deal.
While you are certainly correct in saying that the most obviously anti-competitive mergers are those between direct competitors, vertical integration can be the precurser to later anti-competitive shennanigans which lead to greater ineficiencies in the market place and higher prices.
I wonder how rates in Chinatown are. It seems to be expanding alot with new stores opening almost every week it seems.
Also I wonder how rental rates are in Flushing and Queens. It's really bad here on Long Island, with Nassau county having very little for renters except dumps.
Problem is too much upscale single family homes. We have got to require affordable middle income housing be built or everything goes to the yuppies while the workers suffer. What ever happened to the middle class?
(Real estate prices in Manhattan have gone up about 20-30% a year for the past 4 years. What's even more disturbing is that the rate seems to be increasing.)
Rent regulation, and having a local personal income tax instead of high property taxes on homes, lock up a large share of NYC's housing stock. The unavailability of sites, the fact that those affluent enough to afford a new housing unit are not willing to live in most NYC neighborhoods, and suburban exclusionary zoning limit the ability to expand supply.
So when demand increases, is pushes up against the very small number of units in play. That's why prices are so volitle. The new people -- immigrants, yuppies -- get nailed, while those residents who get a deal somewhere do not.
The only way the housing stock can expand rapidly in NYC is if middle income and affluent families with children decide they are willing to live in 6 -- 9 story apartment buildings in non-affluent neighborhoods. Hasn't happened, and there is a limited number of lots left to build detached houses or even rowhouses.
As you note, apartment living just doesn't cut it for most middle-class people any more. People still want that house, which partially explains the housing boom here on Staten Island. Older one-family homes on large lots in New Dorp and Oakwood are being torn down and replaced with two or three detached one-families or semi-attached two-families, depending on the zoning. Even up in shaky parts of the north shore you see new construction. I guess we're getting the people from Brooklyn who can't afford the high property taxes in NJ but still want a home of their own with NYC's low property taxes. They're asking crazy prices for these new homes and people are gladly paying up. This all makes my house worth more but I just can't figure it out, this housing boom will peak or plateau or bust soon.
(Older one-family homes on large lots in New Dorp and Oakwood
are being torn down and replaced with two or three detached one-families or semi-attached two-families, depending on the
zoning. They're asking crazy prices for these new homes and people are gladly paying up. This all makes my house worth more but I just can't
figure it out, this housing boom will peak or plateau or bust soon.)
Remember the 13 foot wide rowhouses of the late 1980s? The middle of the three bedrooms had a skylight for its legally required window -- if you opened it, it leaked from them on. We changed the zoning to forbid them in 1989 -- the Staten Island builders sued us, and lost.
When the bust hit, those left unsold were unsellable. Completed developments were simply torn down and rebuilt with more reasonable houses -- the land those things stood on was more valuable than the buildings themselves.
I live in a 17 foot wide rowhouse, and it's fine. I've seen some 15 footers (semi-detached that are OK). If Rudy tells the building inspectors to look the other way and we start getting 13 footers again, you'll know the end is near.
Will cover a few posts on this subject in one. I had an l8 foot wide row house built in l9l7 and it was quite nice, heck, l3 feet wide is just about one room. Then, the price boom. I wish it had happened about l977. I got taken on a fixer upper on Grant near Atlantic in l975; 2 years later it was a pretty house. Lost $7500 or more as a sell panic was on because of ethnic change. Now the house I sold for $28,000 is probably woth almost $200,000, at leat $150G's. Fear is that the boom in housing, consumer credit spending and the hot stock market will crash. Do they ever learn? A paper economy can't last forever. Another post in this thread said whatever happened to the middle class? We're down to about 10% or less of the population I'd guess. Those jobs he mentioned are getting fewer and farther between with most of the new jobs being high price professionals or para-prof's and low paying service jobs with no benefits at the other end.I won't waste space on how society's problems are creating jobs unless I'm asked. They say things are so good, I wish I could see it , I can elaborate on all the good jobs there used to be, but won't waste space unless I'm asked. OK one example: a hospital room when I started on the rails in l965 cost about a day's pay for a day in the hopital. The cost has tripled and quadrupled, and you might even be looking at a week's pay for one day there. If you have a good job. That's only the beginning. Oh well, if you don't have to make a good living there are still rural areas where you can buy a nice house for $30-50,000; if you don't need a castle.
>>> a hospital room when I started on the rails in l965 cost about a day's pay for a day in the hospital. The cost has tripled and quadrupled, and you might even be looking at a week's pay for one day there. <<<
Ed;
You are behind the times. I spent six hours on a very uncomfortable gurney in an emergency room two weeks ago. I just got the bill: $4,875.00. It included a charge of $909.00 for one injection (done through the IV tube already in place) This was just the ER. They wanted to admit me to the hospital overnight, but I refused. I am still expecting a good sized bill from the Red & White "taxi" that transported me to the hospital.
I wish that were a week's salary.
Tom
which is why ALL "Private sector" non mutual consumer insurance companies should be NUKED. Insurance companies should work for the policy holders -- NOBODY ELSE.
Thanks for the enlightenment Tom. All the more reason for me to try to avoid such things that would put me there.Of course the day may come I have no choice!.
(Another post in this thread said whatever happened to the middle class? We're down to about 10% or less of the population I'd guess.)
They keep defining middle class up. Thirty years ago you could take a bus, have one car, and be in the middle class. Today it's two SUVs, etc. Fifty years ago, a 17 foot wide row house or a Levitt house put you in the middle class. Today, outside of NYC, those are "starter homes" only.
Almost everything is cheaper today, with a couple of exceptions. You hit one on the head -- medical care. The other is taxes, for the following reason. Whereas you used to take care of your own elderly and screwed up relatives, now the government does it for you -- through Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, other things. (As a whole, the government excluding those entitlements has gotten cheaper too).
Damn those TV commercials. They are what convinces you that you are out of the middle class.
>>> They keep defining middle class up <<<
Larry;
Actually the definition of "Middle Class" has gone down rather than up. Before unions gained strength, any one who worked in a blue collar or clerical job was considered Lower Class.
Middle Class consisted of shop keepers, management jobs and the traditional professions.
Upper Class was reserved for those with BIG (and preferably inherited) money.
Unions increased worker's pay from bare subsistence to a comfortable standard of living, and with these improvements, workers in general no longer saw themselves as "Lower Class", relegating that title to those on welfare or without regular work. This caused a huge swelling of the "Middle Class".
With the rapidly widening gap between workers wages and the pay to managers and dot-com professionals, traditional workers are seeing their grasp of the middle class lifestyle slipping away. Is it only a coincidence that unions have lost much of their strength over the past twenty years?
Tom
Thanx Tom. You clarified my point. Too much "traditional work" that paid a decent living has either been shipped to Mexico or the Orient and fewer people are providing more transportation, communications, etc. Yes the loss of union jobs has been a bad impact; you've said the rest.
(Too much "traditional work" that paid a decent living has either been shipped to Mexico or the Orient and fewer people are providing more transportation, communications, etc. Yes the loss of union jobs has been a bad impact; you've said the rest.)
Actually, these jobs moved from New York to the south to get away from unions, environmental regulations, and paying middle-income wages. They moved to other countries from there. Having unions in NYC, but not in other places, raises the costs here -- including the cost of living for those not in unions. But demanding more in exchange for less here, and not organizing there, unions not only sank themselves but also did great damage to this entire part of the country.
And yet many in the liberal NYC establishment have this pathetic dream of bringing back manufacturing jobs to the city. Land is stilled zoned for manufacturing that will return. Attempts to accept reality and re-zone these parcels for big-box retailers are shot down because it will hurt local (overpriced) merchants. The big-box retailers aren't going to pursue NYC forever, especially now that interest rates are creeping up. Existing supermarkets are vulnerable too because as the big-box becomes the norm, their urban locations will become obsolete. We've already lost the Waldbaums on Hylan Blvd. because their 30-year old space was too small. And a nearby A&P might be next for similar reasons. The window of opportunity to bring modern retailing into NYC is closing rapidly, and the city's consumers are the only one's that will suffer. Witness Costco's recent abandonment of plans to open a site on East 14th Street, they've even sold two other parcels on the west side that they had plans for because they can't pay lawyers forever to fight local opposition. The community 'leaders' think they've won but they've really lost.
[And yet many in the liberal NYC establishment have this pathetic dream of bringing back manufacturing jobs to the city. Land is
stilled zoned for manufacturing that will return. Attempts to accept reality and re-zone these parcels for big-box retailers are shot down because it will hurt local (overpriced) merchants. The big-box retailers aren't going to pursue NYC forever, especially now that interest rates are creeping up. Existing supermarkets are vulnerable too because as the big-box becomes the norm, their urban locations will become obsolete. We've already lost the Waldbaums on Hylan Blvd. because their 30-year old space was too small. And a nearby A&P might be next for similar reasons. The window of opportunity to bring modern
retailing into NYC is closing rapidly, and the city's consumers are the only one's that will suffer. Witness Costco's recent abandonment of plans to open a site on East 14th Street, they've even sold two other parcels on the west side that they had plans for because they can't pay lawyers forever to fight local opposition. The community 'leaders' think they've won but they've really lost.]
You know things have gotten bad when even the "world-ends-at-the-Hudson" New York Times criticizes these anti-store "activists." It was in John Tierney's "Big City" column, and the tone was quite harsh.
I'm not entirely sure of the motivations behind these activists. If they're really hoping for manufacturing to come back to the city, with its well-paid jobs, their motives would be noble if naive ... but surely no one with half a brain really thinks there's a snowball's chance of that happening*. I'd say that the activists are protecting the small stores, but then they're probably the same people who bellyache about high prices and poor selections. It could be that the anti-store activists are the sort of people who oppose _any_ form of development in their areas regardless of the benefits. If that is the case, the moral of the story is that human selfishness knows no bounds.
If there is another side to every story, in this case it's that big-box retailers might not be overly eager to enter the city market even if it weren't for community opposition. If there's a general rule of city retailing, it's that both per-square foot sales and costs are far above the national average - meaning that per-store profitability is about average. In other words, while the city isn't intrinsically a bad place for retailing, it's not particularly good either. It doesn't offer enough financial advantages to overcome the general pro-suburb preferences of most major retailers.
* = today's Times has an interesting article on corporate relocations. There's nothing that hasn't been said before, but clearly the almost-any-business-can-go-almost-anywhere principle gets further empirical support.
<< You know things have gotten bad when even the "world-ends-at-the-Hudson" New York Times criticizes these anti-store
"activists." It was in John Tierney's "Big City" column, and the tone was quite harsh.
I'm not entirely sure of the motivations behind these activists. If they're really hoping for manufacturing to come back to the city,
with its well-paid jobs, their motives would be noble if naive ... but surely no one with half a brain really thinks there's a
snowball's chance of that happening*. I'd say that the activists are protecting the small stores, but then they're probably the
same people who bellyache about high prices and poor selections. It could be that the anti-store activists are the sort of people
who oppose _any_ form of development in their areas regardless of the benefits. If that is the case, the moral of the story is that
human selfishness knows no bounds. >>
I can't speak for the "activists" you castigate, but I can offer my objection to many kinds of "big box" stores: Big box stores are based upon a "surburban" model, whereby you plunk a big, cheap, and ugly cinder block building right in the middle of a vast parking lot, fill the building with goods, and then encourage everybody to drive to the store to do their shopping. One objectionable feature to this model is that it is antithetical to the urbanist vision of city life: whereby you walk a block or two to your local store to get the necessities, and take the subway downtown if you need a more specialized store. The big box -- by very bigness -- requires that the customers drive to the store.
(A rare counter example to this is the K-Mart off Astor Place. HOwever, you could argue that -- given its size -- it is not a cannonical big box store . . . .)
Not that I am against cars, but the reason that I -- and many other people -- prefer the city is that we prefer to live in an area where there is a sense of community. The suburban model of "drive the car to the mall" is not condusive to the creation of location-based communities. Location-based communities (as opposed to -- say -- interest based communities) develop when people walk their neighborhoods, meet their neighbors, and develop relationships with the shopkeepers. I suspect that appreciating a sense of community is why some "activists" live in the city, and that's why many people are against big-box stores arriving in the city.
Moreover, the big box building itself is almost always as ugly as hell, but since suburbanites just drive to it, and don't pay attention to the aesthetics, they don't notice. In the urbanist vision of the city, the aesthetic surroundings are supposed to contribute to the quality of life. Many people think that an ugly big box store detracts from the quality of life by virtue of its very ugliness.
To me, the real issue is: Can mega-retailing be urbanized? Or will it force urban areas to become more suburban (i.e. kill communities, force everybody into cars, and fill the city with cheap, ugly, oppressive buildings)?
[I can't speak for the "activists" you castigate, but I can offer my objection to many kinds of "big box" stores: Big box stores are
based upon a "surburban" model, whereby you plunk a big, cheap, and ugly cinder block building right in the middle of a vast parking lot, fill the building with goods, and then encourage everybody to drive to the store to do their shopping. One objectionable feature to this model is that it is antithetical to the urbanist vision of city life: whereby you walk a block or two to your local store to get the necessities, and take the subway downtown if you need a more specialized store. The big box -- by very bigness -- requires that the customers drive to the store.]
No one's going to argue that a Wal*Mart Supercenter or a Target Greatland in the suburban style would be hopelessly out of place in Manhattan. Yet it's also obvious that it would be essentially impossible to build one, if for no other reason that that the acres of parking would be exhorbitantly expensive. What would be more likely in Manhattan is a superstore built on a sort of hybrid model, possibly similar to the Astor Place K-Mart you mentioned. It doesn't necessarily follow that such a store would destroy any sense of community, and given the realities of Manhattan transportation would have to appeal to transit users rather than drivers.
However, vast areas of the outer boroughs were one would find the derelict manufacturing zones are better for cars. There is room for much parking, they are often near the expressways and they would bring in people who would drive anyway... with their money to Long Island, Westchester or New Jersey.
There is a Home Depot along the Gowanus Expressway in Gowanus. Before it was built we went to Queens or Long Island. Long Island was many times more convenient than the Queens locations (except at night when only Flushing was open, now Brooklyn is also 24/7). The same thing works for Costco along the same road in Sunset Park, although we don't shop there anymore.
A new Home Depot is scheduled to open on the west side of Cropsey Avenue just south of the Belt Parkway across from Pathmark. Sure a community was destroyed, but it was small and the new store will be a boon for more people and communities kill themselves without huge demolition projects anyway (Bushwick comes to mind).
This is utter nonsense. There was one proposal to build a large store over two subway lines. It was criticized for being "suburban."
It all comes down to race and class. Those criticizing "suburban" are eliciting a class bias, and are not different from suburbanites who oppose multi-family housing (it's "too urban," too much traffic) because of fear it will attract minorities.
Speaking of minorities, many of them could use entry level jobs, but all of these are in stores in the suburbs -- where many Manhattanites shop. If you don't believe me, ask Ruth Messinger, who decided to appeal to the snob vote by opposing "mega-stores" and commissioned a large-scale poll to find that people were not driving out to the suburbs to get lower prices and a better selection. The poll found exactly the opposite, and she was honest enough to release the report and admit it, but not to drop her opposition (though much of her staff changed their minds).
And don't give me any crap about the environment. I don't have any air-conditioning, on environmental grounds, hang my clothes on the line, and ride the subway every day.
I always make a point of shopping within the city limits, so my sales tax dollars go to educate the children of the poor. The snobs I know who complain about those megastores with their low-class mass-produced goods all go out to the suburbs to spend their dollars. Their real fear is that if single mothers get a better price on diapers, they'll be left with no choice but to shop at Kmart rather than botiques.
What makes New York great is it's tolerance and diversity -- less hostility to people with different backgrounds than elsewhere. But there is one form of intolerance NYC has in abundance -- classism.
It's more than snobbery. It's a prime example of certain Manhattanites close-mindedness and fear of change. It doesn't matter a damn to these 'community activists' that Costco or CVS or Pathmark bring lower prices to consumers. They want to 'preserve' their perceived little urban village with it's often crummy under-stocked, overpriced retailers. You'd be wasting your breath explaining the benefits of competition to these folks. Most of these people are from out of town originally, they move to Manhattan, and then look down on everyone else. What they really are afraid of is that these stores will be succesful, which I am sure they would be as the average Manhattanite would flock to them. [But Larry, no air-conditioning? My central a/c helps the economy by keeping ConEd employees gainfully employed.]
Here are the links to John Tierney's NYT columns on the oppostion to large retailers-
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/regional/072500ny-col-tierney.html
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/regional/072100ny-col-tierney.html
There is another aspect to the opposition -- lifecycle. Who needs to do all their shopping in one trip in one place to save time? Who needs to stock up on large quantities of modestly priced goods?
Middle- and moderate-income PARENTS!
I never shopped in these types of stores before we had kids. They didn't suit my needs. But I saved a lot of money on diapers at Toys-R-Us, and save a lot of money on paper goods and basic foodstuffs at Costco. Kmart and Old Navy are fine for clothing for kids who will wear them out or outgrow them in four months. You don't shop for children in a boutique. Parents can't afford to go out to dinner four times a week, or buy pre-made takeout food. Once my kids are grown, I'll probably find no reason to shop in these stores either, but I need them now.
Middle- and moderate-income parents are also the people who have cars. We didn't need one until we had kids. Outside of suburbanized area like Staten Island, most young and older adults do not have cars, even if they can afford one, but most families with children who have the income have a car -- even if they get to work by transit.
Nor are Manhattan singles and DINKS (dual income and no kids) the only one to play this game. When these folks get a little older, have kids, and no longer to out to party, I'm sure they'll join the growing chorus of "environmentalists" looking to keep out nightspots and the young people that go with them.
THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE ALL THE NOISE ARE SUCH SELFISH ASSHOLES!
[There is another aspect to the opposition (to superstores) -- lifecycle. Who needs to do all their shopping in one trip in one place to save time? Who needs to stock up on large quantities of modestly priced goods?
Middle- and moderate-income PARENTS!
You don't shop for children in a boutique. Parents can't afford to go out to dinner four times a week, or buy pre-made takeout food. Once my kids are grown, I'll probably find no reason to shop in these stores either, but I need them now.
Middle- and moderate-income parents are also the people who have cars. We didn't need one until we had kids. Outside of suburbanized area like Staten Island, most young and older adults do not have cars, even if they can afford one, but most families with children who have the income have a car -- even if they get to work by transit.]
Which, if I follow your reasoning correctly, doesn't bode well for superstores in NYC. People without children don't shop at superstores, while those with children can drive to the suburbs. Of course, lower income people with children end up as losers - they really could use low superstore prices, but can't afford cars to drive to the suburbs. And it goes without saying that they by and large lack the political pull to get superstores built.
Nor are Manhattan singles and DINKS (dual income and no kids)
(Which, if I follow your reasoning correctly, doesn't bode well for superstores in NYC. People without children don't shop at
superstores, while those with children can drive to the suburbs. Of course, lower income people with children end up as losers
- they really could use low superstore prices, but can't afford cars to drive to the suburbs. And it goes without saying that they
by and large lack the political pull to get superstores built.)
Right. There is yet another aspect. Some people believe that the reason NYC has unique shops and services is because it does not have chain stores selling standardized goods at reasonable prices. You have to give up B to have A. That is nonsense.
Suburbanites have no intention of giving up unique stores and services to get mega-stores. What is going to happen is that -- because the suburbs keep getting new mega-stores, which devalue existing retail properties which are then affordable to entreprenuers -- all the unique and trendy places will be out in the burbs. NYC will be left with 99 cent stores and bodegas charging exhorbitant prices to cover their exhorbitant rents.
Superstores are finding their most virulent oppostion in Manhattan. The stores are finding their way into the 4 other boroughs. Costco and Home Depot are doing well in Staten Island and Brooklyn. The supermarkets are the ones getting impatient with the city. They need to go big-box. As I noted earlier we have lost one and may lose another supermarket on S.I. because of the restictive zoning, and this is an area with a lot of disposable income. So I can imagine what's going to happen to even the mid-sized supermarkets in poor areas.
I occasionally visit Park Slope and the Barnes and Noble is the most welcoming store on 7th Avenue. It's always packed with local people, except those who probably fought it's opening and would prefer to buy their books from some tempermental book store owner. Excepting restaurants most other retailers on 7th Avenue have that worn grungy look that brownstoners must find quaint, I guess.
(Superstores are finding their most virulent oppostion in Manhattan. The stores are finding their way into the 4 other boroughs.)
Actually, you get the same opposition everywhere. And you get the most stores in Manhattan, because it is the only borough with extensive commercial zoning. The one City Council member who voted to make it easier for large stores to open in manufacturing zones was from Manhattan.
Look at those Forest Hills residents going nuts over a few proposed stores in an abandoned manufacturing zone. And the Queen of NIMBY is the head of the zoning committee, from Riverdale. And the idiot in Southeast Queens who fought a Pathmark for four years.
[Superstores are finding their most virulent oppostion in Manhattan. The stores are finding their way into the 4 other boroughs. Costco and Home Depot are doing well in Staten Island and Brooklyn. The supermarkets are the ones getting impatient with the city. They need to go big-box. As I noted earlier we have lost one and may lose another supermarket on S.I. because of the restictive zoning, and this is an area with a lot of disposable income.]
I have heard that different types of supestores are subject to different types of zoning restrictions. Home Depot has been able to take advantage of some obscure provision to open a number of stores in the outer boroughs. On the other hand, supermarkets face much more stringent restrictions, once again because of rules enacted years or decades ago.
[So I can imagine what's going to happen to even the mid-sized supermarkets in poor areas.]
Pathmark, the supermarket operator that most willing to go into lower-income urban areas, is also the one in worst financial shape.
On the other hand, supermarkets face much more stringent restrictions, once again because of rules enacted years or decades ago.
What about the ShopRite on Avenue I in Brooklyn? Or, in Manhattan, the Fairway on the Hudson?
(What about the ShopRite on Avenue I in Brooklyn? Or, in Manhattan, the Fairway on the Hudson? )
Illegal.
The Fairway was closed down, there was a community outcry, and the City looked the other way when they re-opened. The whole anti-supermarket thing was bankrolled by Key Food, White Rose, and Krasdale. They knew a losing fight when they saw it.
The Buildings Department also refused to grant a permit for the ShopRite on Avenue I. After Noah Dear was, uh, compensated, he put the pressure on the Mayor, who put the pressure on the DOB, and they got together with Shop Rite's land use lawyer and came up with the following interpretation -- there was a flea market on the site, a use group 13 (by interpretation), which is really like a use group 10 department store (by further interpretation) and can therefore be converted to a use group 6 supermarket (the zoning actually says that a 10 can be converted to a six). Or something like that.
Here's another winner. The restriction adopted in 1974 says supermarkets are limited to 10,000 s.f. of "floor area." But cellars don't count as floor area for zoning purposes. So Forest City got an interpretation that a large supermarket on Grand Avenue is allowed because it is mostly below grade (the grade slopes).
There were few community objections to these supermarkets. But try to get a special permit in a poor neighborhood, and you'll have all kinds of shills showing up to complain about traffic, asthsma, etc.
The Fairway was closed down? When? It's only been there for five years or so.
(The Fairway was closed down? When? It's only been there for five years or so. )
Fairway filed with the Department of Buildings as a "wholesale" operation, a common ruse to open in a manufacturing zone. There are all kinds of "wholesale" stores over 10,000 square feet. The idea is not to invest anything and make the whole place crappy, so if you get caught you can just cart everything away.
In this case, a competing supermarket filed an objection just after it opened, a building inspector found out that gadzooks it was a store, and shut it down. Suddenly, the majority of people who actually like jobs with benefits, low prices, and selection were in an uproar -- since they knew what they were missing. Fairway reopened, and the monopoly retailers didn't try to force the city to enforce against them. Live to fight another evil "megastore" another day.
I guess the building inspector never drives the Henry Hudson Parkway. (There's a huge electronic billboard advertising Fairway by the 125th Street exit.)
Probably the same reason given by classists in Roslyn for opposing a new supermarket. The result of the residents fear of supermarkets is an old Pathmark which is overcrowded and out of stock, and the little pharmacy there is overwhelmed because there are no other pharmacies around. NIMBY'ism is not productive and is almost always based on some form of classism and unfounded fears.
Meanwhile the decaying spot in Roslyn (where Stop and Shop was to be)continues to be an eyesore because of opposition from SNOBS*.
*These are rich snobs, many of whom are in involved in the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor. No wonder I always see a Jaguar in front of their office, or a luxury SUV.
I heard Waldbaums on Northern Blvd in Manhasset may be closing. Apparently they are too small and can't compete with the bigger, and much busier Pathmark in Greenvale.
The smaller Waldbaums don't do that well, the one in Glen Head is also quite small and does a poor business. What they should do is expand these small stores into bigger, full service supermarkets that are open 24 hours and have a pharmacy dept., but in my area there would be tremendous opposition to any expansion plans.
The result is a serious lack of places to get the basics, food, water, batteries,etc, but it seems people in my area put their narrow minded thinking ahead of plain common sense.
Also speaking of big box retailers finding the city unprofitable, will one ever fill the void of Caldor in Flushing? It just sits their vacant and inactive with a homeless person living in front of it, carraiges of cans and bottles are in the front, with food, piles of dirty clothes and something even worse (fecal matter?).
If no big box retailers come perhaps a new Asian mall of sorts could open there.
[I heard Waldbaums on Northern Blvd in Manhasset may be closing. Apparently they are too small and can't compete with the bigger, and much busier Pathmark in Greenvale.
The smaller Waldbaums don't do that well, the one in Glen Head is also quite small and does a poor business. What they should do is expand these small stores into bigger, full service supermarkets that are open 24 hours and have a pharmacy dept., but in my area there would be tremendous opposition to any expansion plans.]
Bigger-is-better seems to be the nationwide trend when it comes to supermarkets. Some of it might be economies of scale, and some of it might be consumer demand for one-stop shopping. Wal*Mart has taken things a step further in some parts of the country, though not as yet in the New York area, by putting both a huge supermarket and a discount store under one (very large) roof. More specifically, Waldbaum's might be encountering some financial trouble as a result of the increasing conglomeration of the supermarket industry, especially Royal Ahold's purchase of Edward's.
[Also speaking of big box retailers finding the city unprofitable, will one ever fill the void of Caldor in Flushing? It just sits their
vacant and inactive with a homeless person living in front of it, carraiges of cans and bottles are in the front, with food, piles of
dirty clothes and something even worse (fecal matter?).
If no big box retailers come perhaps a new Asian mall of sorts could open there.]
If nothing's happened in the year and a half since Caldor's bit the dust, it doesn't sound as if anything's going to happen soon. Maybe that Asian mall idea would work.
Perhaps a Target store will open up in the old Caldor's spot since that was the case with the one in Valley Stream (next to Green Acres Mall).
K-Mart is also a natural chain for large and multi-leveled mall construction.
Doug aka BMTman
The Caldor's in Morris Plains and Ledgewood have Kohl's Stores in them now. And either way an IND extension via Queens Bvld. would be needed.
Kohl's is probably the better hope for the Flushing site. I think Target took a look at all of the Caldor sites and cherry picked the best ones. Now Kohl's has come along to grab the best of the remaining sites. K-mart probably has a better demographic match than Kohl's with the demographics of Flushing, though.
"The Caldor's in Morris Plains and Ledgewood have Kohl's Stores in them now. And either way an IND extension via Queens
Blvd. would be needed."
There has got to be a better way to get to Morris Plains and Ledgewood than by extending the IND along Queens Blvd. (sorry, couldn't help it).
I'm talking about Flushing.
Also K-Mart has a site with access to Penn Station New York's LIRR area.
[Kohl's is probably the better hope for the Flushing site. I think Target took a look at all of the Caldor sites and cherry picked the best ones. Now Kohl's has come along to grab the best of the remaining sites. K-mart probably has a better demographic match than Kohl's with the demographics of Flushing, though.]
When Kohl's announced its plans to open stores in several old Caldor's sites on Long Island, a company spokesman was quoted as saying that they were strictly a suburban operation and weren't interested in urban locations. That was over a year ago, and I suppose things could have changed, but I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Kohl's in the city.
Bring Back EJ Korvets, Gimbels, or Woolworths.
(Caldors Flushing)
Lots of people are sitting on sites, and speculating. The fact that the site may be caught up in bankruptcy doesn't help.
No one is going to open a store that big in that location. Target in College Point has parking, Downtown Flushing does not. So the building needs to be rebuilt -- perhaps a mid-size retailer on one floor, a big health club on another, offices above. Plenty of demand. But everyone is just sitting on space, and banks won't lend for development.
[Perhaps a Target store will open up in the old Caldor's spot since that was the case with the one in Valley Stream (next to Green Acres Mall).]
Could be. Flushing isn't far from Target's College Point store, but the area's large population base might be enough to support two close-together stores. And Target, unlike Wal*Mart or Kohl's, is willing to consider urban as well as suburban locations.
[K-Mart is also a natural chain for large and multi-leveled mall construction.]
True, but the company's still in rather dicey financial condition.
Channel 2 News's Financial Report at 12noon today said that KMart is Closing 89 stores that are unprofitable, They didn't say where the stores are closing. I doubt that any in the city are unprofitable since we have a shortage of discount stores. Target is expanding in the City and opening a new store on Queens Blvd in the old Macy's and Sterns Building. They are also opening a new store across from Atlantic Center in downtown Brooklyn. A&P owns Waldbaums and is closing many old Waldbaums stores that are located near A&P Stores. They are going to open new stores in the next few years and are closing stores where leases are either up or when the landlord raises up the rent so high that the store becomes unprofitable. A&P and Waldbaums want to build new superstores like the new Waldbaums near the Staten Island Hotel on Richmond Avenue. They are going out of the small neighborhood stores that they are presently closing. The time has come to change zoning regulations to allow more supermarkets to open. If we don't, we will lose competition and continue to pay the highest food prices in NY State. We need more supermarkets like Stop and Shop, Foodtown, Price Chopper,Hanaford, Edwards, and Shoprite.
I have relatives in the Supermarket industry and most big chains would come into the city if they would be allowed to build superstores like they build in the suburbs. Right now, they cannot because of zoning regulations. Walmart cannot come into the city because their stores are 200,000 square feet- zoning only allows for 125,000 square feet. Supermarkets are only allowed 65,000 square feet. Time to harrass our politicians to change this stupid law- then we will really see economic development!
(Supermarkets are only allowed 65,000 square feet.)
Outside of the center of Manhattan and places like Downtown Brooklyn, which are too far away for most people to travel for weekly shopping, supermarkets, discount department stores, department stores, appliance stores, apparel stores, and electronic stores are allowed 10,000 square feet.
Target stores need to be very large and there's one in nearby College Point.
I was surprised that K-mart took over the Caldor site in Middle Village...Since K-mart does have a shaky financial status...However, they seem to be holding their own so far...If anyone's familiar with Metro Mall, you will know that those moving sidewalks are an Achille's heel since they spend most of their time FUBAR.
Some retailers do seem very short-sighted. In 1996, Caldor opened in Glen Oaks, Queens, on the site of the old Mays. In 1999, it went under and was eventually replaced by a K-Mart. A similiar scenario unfolded at Middle Village's MetroMall. In that instance, Caldor's space was previously occupied by a Times Square Store. It disgusts me to see a store premiere and close down in such a short time frame.
Actually, it's not really a mall. K-Mart and Toys-R-Us are actually on street level and are easily accessible from the Metropolitan Avenue entrance. The steep moving walkway/conveyor belt is for people using the rooftop parking lot. There is a Levitz and Pergament, and WAS a Waldbaums, Gymboree and other stores situated in a mini-mall underneath the complex accessible only by ramps descending from Metropolitan Avenue. Pedestrians must use a narrow sidewalk along these ramps.
K-Mart and Toys-R-Us seem extremely popular with nearby Brooklyn working-class minority communities such as Williamsburg and Bushwick. You can see mobs of people walking to and from the 'M' terminal adjacent to the street level entrance. Similarly, the stop for the Williamsburg-bound Q54 across the street is packed with people loaded down with bags of stuff they just bought.
Other than Queens Center, this is the city's only major center containing large discount-type stores that accomodates people coming by car, bus and subway. Bay Plaza and Kings Plaza, in the Bronx and Brooklyn respectively, have large parking areas (although you gotta PAY to park at Kings!) and are served by numerous bus lines, but are far from subways. Manhattan Mall is near virtually every subway line, not to mention Penn Station, but traffic and parking make driving to it out of the question.
It would really bite to see this, and other newly opened K-Marts go under so fast.
I can't figure out what FUBAR stands for, but the first two letters indicate it's not something that can be spelled out in a 'family' website.
[bleep]ed up beyond all recognition.
See also FUBAR.
[It would really bite to see this, and other newly opened K-Marts go under so fast.]
K-Mart does not appear to be in any danger of complete failure a la Caldor's. Its financial weakness has limited expansions and has resulted in the closing of a relative handful of poorly performing stores. I would highly doubt that the NYC stores would be candidates for closing, if for no other reason than the fact that they face little competition.
Caldor was in Chapter 11 and doing reasonably well at reorganization when its principal creditor got ansy and pulled the plug. This started a financial avalanche and Caldor was forced into Chapter 7, thus the sudden closure of the entire chain. The Courts forced the sale of the Caldor assets (primarily equipment and stock, most stores were leased) at less than 50 cents on the dollar to liquidators, who combined Caldor stock with other recovery goods. The leases were vacated, usually at a loss to the property owner. That explains the sudden holes in malls all over the Northeast. The Court adverised the leaseholds, there were few takers.
I suspect that due to the almost immense amount of vacant Caldor sites the vacancies will exist until well into the 21st Century. It will be 2005 or after before many of the ex-Caldor sites get a new tenant.
[Caldor was in Chapter 11 and doing reasonably well at reorganization when its principal creditor got ansy and pulled the plug. This started a financial avalanche and Caldor was forced into Chapter 7, thus the sudden closure of the entire chain. The Courts forced the sale of the Caldor assets (primarily equipment and stock, most stores were leased) at less than 50 cents on the dollar to liquidators, who combined Caldor stock with other recovery goods. The leases were vacated, usually at a loss to the property owner. That explains the sudden holes in malls all over the Northeast. The Court adverised the leaseholds, there were few takers.
I suspect that due to the almost immense amount of vacant Caldor sites the vacancies will exist until well into the 21st Century. It will be 2005 or after before many of the ex-Caldor sites get a new tenant.]
By no means all of the former Caldor sites remain vacant. Most of them on Long Island were snapped up practically before Caldor's body was cold. Kohl's got many of them, with Wal*Mart taking the one in Riverhead and Target getting the one in Valley Stream at the Green Acres Mall. I only know of one still-vacant site, in East Patchogue, and it's in an area where, as the marketers would say, the demographics are mediocre. There may be a couple of other vacant Long Island sites I don't know about, most likely in Nassau County. Outside Long Island, the site in Waterbury, Connecticut remains vacant, but once again it's in an undesirable area, on a fast-fading retail strip near the site of a now-demolished shopping mall.
About half of the locations in New Jersey remain vacant. Kohl's has picked up a couple; Ames picked up the location on the Ocean/Neptune border, just west of Asbury Park. That one won't last but a year or two, though, since it has an access problem and the mall across the road is being demolished/rebuilt over the next 18 months and will feature Target, along with current tenants Sears and a super-discounter whose name escapes me at the moment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maryland is littered with Caldor corpses. In the Baltimore Metro area, 10 malls have vacant Caldor sites that are still vacant, with Caldor's signs still gracing the shells, although the mall operators have mostly removed the inside signs, with the Rouse properties blanking the former entrances with their standard wallboard panels with nice pictures or in-house adds tastefully gracing the walls. The mall operators would love to lease the sites, but the square footage available discourages easy leasing.
Adding to lease woes is the many former Hechinger stores in the Baltimore - Washington area. Hechinger, an old-line "medium box" hardware/home repair chain. They were literally driven out of business by Big-Box giant Home Depot, with Lowe's delivering the coup-de-gras.
Now there are at least 16 vacant former Hechinger sites in search of a tenant. It is not a happy time for mall owners and the REITs that now have almost every strip shopping center in the Balto-Wash-Philly areas.
I think that Caldor was a victim of poor planning in the case of their Jericho, LI location. In May of 1991 my family celebrated my daughter's Bat-Mitzvah with a reception at the Fountainbleu Catering Hall on Jericho Tpke in Jericho. It was a small two room catering hall. Across the alley-way also facing JT was a large Furniture store. At the end of the alley was a warehouse that faced the LIE service road. A friend was impressed with the job the caterer did and booked his son's reception at the hall for May of 1994. Sometime in 1993 he is passing the location and sees dumpsters in front of the hall. He stops and was told that the hall was sold to another caterer who is renovating and he shouldn't worry. His party does take place in May of 1994 after the hall underwent $600,000 in renovations. Shortly afterward the hall, the store and the warehouse was sold to Caldor and all buildings were demolished. A conventional looking Caldor's was erected, opened and then shut in less than a year. What kind of marketing surveys did they rely on in poorly spending all this money?
I think they had a rash of 'Poor Planning'. The Caldor's in Commack had a very short run.
You are correct in that the Commack Store had a short-run. However the capital expenditures could not have been as significant as the Jericho store since they took over an abandoned Rickel's and other than some new shelving, etc there was not much of an outlay. In the case of Jericho, what was the land acquisiton and construction costs to acquire the three buildings, demolishing, etc. I wonder how TJ Maxx is doing in the old Caldor location?
That's true...when I was courting my wife way back when (1988)..I remember TSS/Metro Mall always being jammed packed with shoppers from Brooklyn n the surrounding areas and at least on e shopper from Washington Heights (Me) loaded with bags from there....What happened to Walbaums?..I'm in Virginia since I'm part of your US Navy, I haven't been to Metro Mall since last year.
I heard that Walbaums was killed off by the new Edwards plaza on Grand Ave. I used to shop there on pay day, then last fall, I went and it was gone. Not sure what they want to do with the space. I had been telling the building owners to connect the two levels, (making Waldbaums and the lower mall more accessible) and they said you couldn't cut through the floors. But now they've built an elevator up from the front of K Mart to the rooftop parking. Go figure!
Ever Notice how empty a K Mart is if there is a Wal-Mart within 5 miles. A couple years ago NBC Dateline did a show on store scanners, that overcharge. They found that # 1 was K Mart and #2 was Sears. Well before that time if the item scaned wrong K-Mart gave it for nothing. They lost millions of dollars. Now they give a rebate of $3.00 and if you have 2 or more. you only get one rebate. Here in Hawaii, especially Maui, it seems in order to work in K-Mart, especially as a Cashier you have to fail 2nd grade Math. Maui is the only Major Island in Hawaii with no Wal-Mart, and the local BIG K is the 2nd highest grocer in the chain, behind some place in Texas. The other islands have Wal Marts. Oh By the way Woolworth is alive abnd well in Australia, Mexico and the UK.(different ownership)
[Ever Notice how empty a K Mart is if there is a Wal-Mart within 5 miles.]
Probably true, although in some respects K-Mart has the edge over Wally World. Its prices are by and large comparable and the store layout is better. I find Wal*Mart's aisles too narrow and the shelves often are cluttered. And while it's hard to say this without sounding hopelessly snobby, Wal*Mart seems to attract many people of the type one would prefer to avoid. K-Mart is a bit better in that respect.
>>> And while it's hard to say this without sounding hopelessly snobby <<<
Peter;
It is impossible to sound snobby when recommending K-Mart.
Tom
And while it's hard to say this without sounding hopelessly snobby, Wal*Mart seems to attract many people of the type one would prefer to avoid.
That seems to be a regional thing. Down South it's just the opposite. K-Mart attracts the bottom feeders, while Wal*Mart attracts the respectable clientele. A good bit of that is location, I presume, since K-Mart stores tend to be located in more iffy neighborhoods while Wal*Mart is a highway store.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Super Kmart in Champaign gets sizeable crowds, although not as large as at the nearby Wal-Mart or Meijer. (Of the three, Wal-Mart is the only one that does not sell groceries.) All three are in the same collection of strip malls along N. Prospect Ave.
Here in Norfolk, the Super K-mart is open 24/7 and caters to all the folks here fropm bottom feeders to pushed noses...but, the largest customers are the military families by and large...the nearest Wal-Mart is down the highway and that's bottom feeder central...But Target had it's own clientele..If you're not military, your mid to upper snob. Are there any Super K-marts and Super Wal-Marts in the NYC area?
[Here in Norfolk, the Super K-mart is open 24/7 and caters to all the folks here fropm bottom feeders to pushed noses...but, the largest customers are the military families by and large...the nearest Wal-Mart is down the highway and that's bottom feeder central...But Target had it's own clientele..If you're not military, your mid to upper snob. Are there any Super K-marts and Super Wal-Marts in the NYC area?]
"Pushed noses"?
There are many K-Marts and a smaller number of Wally Worlds in the NYC area, but if by the "super" ones you mean those with attached supermarkets, we don't have any yet.
BTW, you're right about Target, it's a step above the other two.
Sorry Pete I meant to say snobs I think it's turned noses or something like that.
As an aside (which actually brings this thread back on-topic), MetroMall bans commuter parking for the adjacent subway station, while Queens Center allows and encourages it, even with the municipal lots across the street. Allowing commuter parking keeps the mall in peoples' minds as a place to go, and probably plays some role in Queens Center's success.
Queens Center's success can also be attributed to...
1. Access: QC is served by two major arterial roads (Queens Blvd and Woodhaven Blvd), the L.I.E., a subway station, and seven bus routes, all of which make it very difficult NOT to get there.
2. The efficient use of space: While not as upscale as some other malls, it achieves the highest sales-per-square-foot of almost any mall in the Northeast US, making it so attractive to retailers that it now has to be expanded. (Even the Baskin-Robbins booth on the lower level is one of that chain's best-performing outlets nationwide.)
As far as I concerned, I need never step foot into a K-Mart as long as they have Rosie O'donnell doing their commercials. (I think the Florida Orange Juice people learned that lesson with Anita Bryant and I don't think O.J. Simpson will be doing any more hertz Commercials)
IMHO Placing shopping malls in close proximity to mass transit hubs works both ways - for the good. People who use mass transit find the shopping (between legs of their commute) very convenient. Also shoppers have an opportunity to find out how convenient and cost effective mass transit can be.
[IMHO Placing shopping malls in close proximity to mass transit hubs works both ways - for the good. People who use mass transit find the shopping (between legs of their commute) very convenient. Also shoppers have an opportunity to find out how convenient and cost effective mass transit can be.]
That might be part of the reason why the Roosevelt Field mall is so successful, with its ample bus service. It's too bad that some mall operators and developers regard bus service as unwelcome.
Depending on the mall and the bus routes involved, mass transit can either help or hurt the mall. There was a big stink a few years back when the Raleigh, NC city buses changed their schedules on one route that served Crabtree Valley Mall, and a certain group of people with a noisy lawyer had the schedule changed back eight or nine months later. But when the bus system again changed the schedules six months later (at mall management request), those supportive of the mall management had the facts they needed to prove that this one schedule change would reduce shoplifting by 15-20%. (The last bus to the mall from the affected neighborhood for nearly three hours now runs just BEFORE school gets out, with very limited evening service to the mall. Lots of service there in the morning, though, since many mall employees live in the affected neighborhood, and lots of service back to the neighborhood from mid-afternoon on.) With the facts in front of him, the noisy lawyer shut up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Depending on the mall and the bus routes involved, mass transit can either help or hurt the mall. There was a big stink a few years back when the Raleigh, NC city buses changed their schedules on one route that served Crabtree Valley Mall, and a certain group of people with a noisy lawyer had the schedule changed back eight or nine months later. But when the bus system again changed the schedules six months later (at mall management request), those supportive of the mall management had the facts they needed to prove that this one schedule change would reduce shoplifting by 15-20%.]
Management of the mall in Trumbull, Connecticut made a very similar argument a couple of years ago when they tried to exclude buses from the nearby city of Bridgeport. They claimed that bus riders accounted for a very small percentage of mall patrons, something under ten percent, but almost half of the shoplifting arrests. While these might seem like pretty convicing numbers, they failed to take into account the quite likely possibility that mall and store security workers kept a closer eye on the sort of people - minority teenagers in groups - who also were more likely to be mall riders. It wasn't surprising that these people accounted for a disproportionate share of arrests. Meanwhile, of course, shoplifters who didn't fit the bus-rider "demographic" could keep stealing with little fear of getting caught.
There is no bus stop in the Broadway Mall, only on Broadway outside the mall. Broadway Mall in Hicksville probably cited similar reasons, blaming bus riders for shoplifting.
It's not exactly a fancy mall either, it's actually kind of dingy with alot of junk stores and it's new department store, JCPenney, is only 1 level and is not doing very well.
Broadway Mall was really never that good even when it went by the old Mid Island Plaza name years ago. The bus service was relocated at least twice when I was there...I went to the SUNY down the highway and rarely saw any of my fellow dorm rats there...They opted to either go to Roosevelt Feild or take a trip into the City.
[There is no bus stop in the Broadway Mall, only on Broadway outside the mall. Broadway Mall in Hicksville probably cited similar reasons, blaming bus riders for shoplifting.
It's not exactly a fancy mall either, it's actually kind of dingy with alot of junk stores and it's new department store, JCPenney, is only 1 level and is not doing very well.]
Of course, if you consider IKEA to be part of it, Broadway Mall is doing extremely well indeed :-)
Well IKEA does very well, so do the movies. But as far as shopping is concerned there is very little Broadway Mall has to offer.
>>> It wasn't surprising that these people accounted for a disproportionate share of arrests. Meanwhile, of course, shoplifters who didn't fit the bus-rider "demographic" could keep stealing with little fear of getting caught. <<<
Peter;
I would assume the store which Anon_e_mouse referred to was using figures which show less shrinkage of inventory rather than the number of shoplifters who are caught when they compared the shoplifting problem with and without the bus lines. That would seem to be the only way that it could pass muster. Also since they did not cancel all bus service, it was not so radical a solution. After all if they could say they were preventing school kids from getting to the mall, rather than all those living in a neighborhood, there would not be a protected class being discriminated against.
Tom
Crabtree Valley Mall is the largest or second-largest shopping mall in North Carolina, with four anchor stores (Sears, Lord & Taylor, Hecht's, Hudson Belk). It is on two levels with approximately 200 other stores in the main mall structure itself and another 30 or so in the "annex", a free-standing structure that includes a Toys "R" Us, Barnes & Noble, and a major Post Office facility. I don't know exactly how they quantified the shoplifting decrease, but I do recall that both arrests and shrinkage figures were quoted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder, if it had been determined that most of the shoplifters came by car, rather than by bus, would the parking lot be eliminated, or maybe just shut down for a few hours of the day?
Thought not.
Middle class in NYC is really more blue collar, lower middle class or working class. Tons of middle class white collar people have moved out to the suburbs since the 1960s. These distinctions have been blurred by the changing nature of employment. You can work for a bank but be working class by the nature and pay scale of your job. An electrician is blue collar but his skilled labor income can put him into the upper middle class. What are the 'official' income ranges for the middle class in NYC?
[They keep defining middle class up. Thirty years ago you could take a bus, have one car, and be in the middle class. Today it's two SUVs, etc. Fifty years ago, a 17 foot wide row house or a Levitt house put you in the middle class. Today, outside of NYC, those are "starter homes" only.]
Speaking of housing prices ... I had to make a quick one-day trip to Buffalo yesterday (something that would have been entirely unaffordable in the pre-Jet Blue days), and had a couple of hours to kill in the Buffalo airport waiting for my return flight. It's a much smaller airport that I would have thought, without much of anything to do (interesting observation - in the bookstore/gift shop, at least one third of the "local interest" souvenirs actually were NYC things). Anyway, with little else to do, I got one of those giveaway magazines with real estate ads. I thought I was looking at *car* prices. Older houses in the city itself were going for $25,000 or even less. Nice modern suburban houses were in the $60,000 to $100,000 range depending on location. There were only a couple of suburbs, Williamsville and Amherst if I recall correctly, in which the average prices were more than $100,000. It sure was an eye-opening experience to someone like me who's used to Long Island's exhorbitant house prices.
(Buffalo: Older houses in the city itself were going for $25,000 or even less. Nice modern suburban houses were in the $60,000 to $100,000 range depending on location. There were only a couple of suburbs, Williamsville and Amherst if I recall correctly, in which the average
prices were more than $100,000).
Upstate New York: a nice place to live (thanks to all the tax dollars flowing in from Downstate) but a lousy place to earn a living. Also, a tough place to move out of if you own a home.
Before settling down in Brooklyn, my wife and I thought (based on objective criteria) that Upstate is where we wanted to live. We then found out that while it may be possible to find A job in Buffalo, Syracuse, or Rochester, it is impossible to find the job after than. Unless you are a teacher, a nurse, or work in a Seven-Eleven, expect to move every time you change jobs. My brother-in-law is on his third Upstate Metro. The problem is, neither Buffalo, nor Rochester, nor Syracuse is big enough to be a significant place. Maybe with the internet, and only having to go into the office twice a week, they can combine into one job market. Otherwise, forget it.
And the transit stinks.
[Upstate New York: a nice place to live (thanks to all the tax dollars flowing in from Downstate) but a lousy place to earn a living. Also, a tough place to move out of if you own a home.]
That's for sure. While it was amusing to see the absurdly low housing prices, I realized right away that they weren't such a bargain because the economy was so strong. I suppose there are places in the country that have both low housing prices and strong economies, but Upstate isn't among them.
You're basically talking about Western NY. You really can't generalize and lump all of upstate NY together. I think the economy, housing, and job situations are much better if you go due North from NYC instead of West, to the Capital District, such as Albany, Saratoga, Lake George, etc. As far as I'm concerned Saratoga Springs is one of the greatest places there is, (even when the track is closed) and if I could talk the wife into it, thats where I want to go when I retire!!!
(I think the economy, housing, and job situations are much better if you go due North from NYC instead of West, to the Capital District,
such as Albany, Saratoga, Lake George, etc.)
These areas are close enough to get some overflow from NYC's economy, in taxes for state government, second homes, tourism, etc. (In fact, they get more overflow from Manhattan than poor parts of Brooklyn do).
But Upstate had an independent economy, based on agriculture followed by high-tech (for its time) manufacturing. That has been in decline -- just like the independent industrial economy of Brooklyn. Both have become more dependent on money thrown off by Manhattan. But the subway does not go to Buffalo.
I think that Upstate New York may be getting over the worst of its long term economic decline. It has many assets, including an educated workforce, strong universities, beautiful environs, access to NY and, interestingly, a first rate telecommunications infrastructure (this is becoming an important marketing tool for Buffalo, which has tremendous "broad-band" availability.) What is does not yet have is a forward looking and cosmopolitan political class. But then, does NYC really have that either?
I would like to hear from anyone who has purchased railfan videos regarding the quality and overall satisfaction with the production.
I am especially interested in videos that feature bridge crossings.
Thanks in advance!!!
{Sorry for the long post, guys, but I figured a perspective from a guy who doesn't know the system like the back of his hand might be refreshing (or boring, depending).}
Because I had never ridden the whole of the BMT Broadway Brooklyn/Fulton St. (J/M/Z) line before, yesterday, after work, I caught a 'Z' train at Chambers Street and rode all the way out to Jamaica Center. I wanted to ride on a 'Z', since they don't run on weekends, the usual time for railfanning. Also, as this was a spur-of-the-moment idea of mine, I had no camera; anyway, rush-hour would be an awkward time for photography.
The first thing that struck me was the ghost-town-like nature of Chambers Street Station. It's a cavern, with its tile columns and high ceiling! It reminded me of those pictures you see of bombed-out cathedrals from WWII. The southbound J/Z trains were so far away across the station, you almost couldn't hear them. I looked to see whether the "express" tracks across the platform were in use. According to the signage I saw, all service, at least all northbound service, is meant to be on the "local" track. The unused center platform reminded me of the IND 59th Street center platform, but not as pristine. The abandoned northbound side-platform is a bit eerie - dark, with lots of schmutz and debris, metal sheets and fences around the unused staircases, and various metal boxes and pipes bolted into the once-gleaming tiles in quite a haphazard fashion. I was fascinated by the mosaic- and tile-work, though. My first thought was that the Brooklyn Bridge was pictured, but without the diagonal cables depicted, I was not sure. Upon further contemplation, I thought maybe it was the Willie B, because the line connects to it. Upon even further reflection and eye-squinting, I figured it could even be the Manhattan Bridge too, since it too was in use by the line till the completion of the Chrystie St. connection. Later, I checked the Chambers Street page of this site to find that it was indeed the Brooklyn Bridge, the only of the 3 lower East River bridges to which the line never physically connected! Finally, a 'Z' arrived, and being the Railfan Geek that I am, I settled in behind the front window. For some reason, at every stop, the T/O kept opening the cab door a crack and looking out into the car behind me, before closing the door and proceeding. Not being your bold type of railfan, and not wanting to be a pest, I resisted the small urge to ask him why.
Leaving the vast hall of Chambers Street behind, we pulled out and headed for Canal. I was interested in seeing what I could see of the disused trackage left over from the Nassau Street subway before the Chrystie Street connection was built. Sure enough, we were shunted across the former Manhattan Bridge connection tracks on our way to Canal. To me, it looked almost like a yard. As we approached Canal, I would swear there were many more sidings and bits of abandoned track/tunnel than are depicted in Peter Dougherty's book, "Tracks of the NYC Subway," but I'm sure it was a just matter of perspective and experience.
Finally, we left Canal, made the turn, and arrived at Bowery. Talk about a ghost-town. I saw only ONE customer on the platform. Between Bowery and Essex Street, more switches and crossovers. It wasn't till later that night, while having a chance to peruse the track map, that I realized that I had actually traveled some of that disused track, namely the Chrystie Street Cut from the Willie B to the 6th Ave. IND, on a Transit Museum Nostalgia trip.
We passed the abandoned trolley terminal (ghost-town #3), and we were on the bridge. I hadn't remembered that the tracks were in the center, which reminded me of the Manhattan Bridge's problems with the tracks on the outside. The most notable thing about traversing the bridge was how s - l - o- w we went. It being rush hour, when we arrived in Brooklyn, I could see a possible reason why, as at least 2 trains were visible in our ROW up ahead. I thought the red and white HSBC signs on the Williamsburg Savings(?) Bank looked out of place, and the billboard for Peter Luger's Steakhouse reminded me that I was getting hungry. As we proceeded down Broadway, I wondered why we weren't making use of the center "express" tracks, a la '7' express service in my home boro of Queens. Then I realized that the 'Z' isn't really an express per se, but runs skip-stop. Also, the only express platforms I saw were at Myrtle Avenue. As we arrived at Myrtle, I realized the 'M' must use the center tracks between the bridge and the cutoff to Metropolitan Ave. I decided to explore the 'M' line at a later date. I noted the remnants of the Myrtle Avenue el as we proceeded down Broadway, wondering why the Queens els, which I see every day, couldn't be painted in the same nice blue-green color, instead of the "puke-pink" or "rust" color that they are.
Between Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy./East NY Yard, I took note of the rusty center tracks. Of particular fascination to me was an ornate, marble building just past the Gates Avenue stop. It had clearly seen much better days before being boarded-up at street level. There was statuary and ornamentation, and huge, gaping, black round holes where once-decorative windows were, I guess. I'm sure the pigeons and rats have found quite a palace there. I wonder what this building was…
About the East NY complex I will write nothing except, "Wow." You could write a novel about that alone.
So on we went, skipping stops to Jamaica. I wondered if there had ever been any express tracks on this part of the line. It looks like there is barely enough room for a 3rd set. Again, I saw no express platforms, so I figured not. Also, I noted the suburb-like atmosphere around stops like Cypress Hills, with many trees and small homes, and even a high school football field. The last notable thing was the fact that several former 'Z' trains were Manhattan bound marked "Out-of-Service." It was only about 6:15 or so. Hmm. Do 'Z' trains only make one run per evening rush?
The last thing I was looking out for was any remnants or stubs of the el that used to go out to 168th Street. Perhaps something like the many stub girders at Queensboro Plaza. I'm sure if I knew what I was looking for I would have seen something, but as we rounded the bend, down the ramp into Sutphin Blvd., I could make out no vestiges of the old el. I wonder if there is anything to see from the street there.
After arriving at Jamaica Center, I took a 'J' back one stop to Sutphin so I could catch a westbound LIRR train. I was hoping to maybe ride the "Lower Montauk" branch that I've read so much about in Subtalk, but no platforms were indicating a LIC destination. I guess it was the wrong time of day. (Actually, the digital signs are new since I was at Jamaica Station last.) While I waited for my train on Track 2, one of the new bi-level trainsets pulled into (and terminated at) Track 1, which allowed me to peek into the cab for a while. Too bad this wasn't my train. It looked nice and new. Anyway, I thought I would chance not buying a ticket in Jamaica Station (a common practice of some Subtalkers), hoping the conductor wouldn't walk through collecting tickets. Alas, as fate would have it, I heard "Tickets, folks. I gotta do it one more time," over the PA, and I knew I was doomed :-( . I ended up paying the penalty (literally) and forking over $3.75 for a ticket. After all, it was a non-peak direction train, and he had plenty of time and room. He politely (I'm not being sarcastic) asked me to get my ticket "downstairs" next time. Perhaps it was my fault since I drew attention to myself by standing at the front window of the Budd train, but, like I said, I am a Railfan Geek, and not a very sneaky one at that. After a smooth, quick ride west, I finished off the trip on one of those top-rated number '7' trains, peeking into the cab as the T/O continually had to coax the Redbirds past an ever-present sort of jolt/power surge after every stop. I wondered if that was peculiar to the train or to the T/O, as I began to plan my next railfan adventure…
> Later, I checked the Chambers Street page of this site to find
> that it was indeed the Brooklyn Bridge, the only of the 3 lower
> East River bridges to which the line never physically connected!
Well.... now that you mention it.... typically the mosiacs depict something in the area. The Chambers St. Station is right under the bridge approach so it makes sense that the mosaic is an incorrect depiction of the Brooklyn Bridge. However... I'll bring the question up to a mosaic expert and see what they have to say.
Somehow the deigners decided quite correctly that a Manhattan bridge mosaic wouldn't look nearly as good as the present BB one.
I thought it was decided that those mosaics are of the Brooklyn Bridge even though they're in error.
The plaques at Chambers Street ARE supposed to be of the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the cabling that is mis-represented. These aren't of tile - they're terra cotta and are mounted on pink marble pilasters and surrounded by light yellow, cherry red, light blue and white-accented tiles, which is Chambers Street's color scheme.
Chambers Street does not follow the Grecian design of the other Nassau Street stations, preferring to use a simple geometric design that features rectangles and diamonds.
wayne
[The first thing that struck me was the ghost-town-like nature of Chambers Street Station. It's a cavern, with its tile columns and
high ceiling! It reminded me of those pictures you see of bombed-out cathedrals from WWII.]
A perfect analogy!
[The last thing I was looking out for was any remnants or stubs of the el that used to go out to 168th Street. Perhaps something like the many stub girders at Queensboro Plaza. I'm sure if I knew what I was looking for I would have seen something, but as we rounded the bend, down the ramp into Sutphin Blvd., I could make out no vestiges of the old el. I wonder if there is anything to see from the street there.]
There's said to be a column of some sort remaining along Jamaica Avenue near the 168th Street end. I've never checked the area on the ground, so I can't say for sure.
There were several "stubs" from the old el which remained as supports to traffic signals that were hung from them. All of these stubs have been replaced with modern supports, in the late 80's.
Does anyone know if the old substation just short of the old Supthin Blvd. station is still there? If not, then every remaining trace of the el has been removed. Jamaica was efficiently cleansed of it's el. What a shame ...
The real shame was that they never finished the project by extending the relocated line to Southeast Queens.
A shame it is and too bad the el got blamed for bad social conditions. Arriving at Jamaica on the el was the closest one could come to arriving downtown on an el; Jamaica is a county seat so was like arriving in the city; the intervening neighborhoods were indeed old suburbs..for their time. But the grand entry is gone.. replaced by a subway that doesn't even go as far. That's a bigger shame.
The Lower Montauk runs in peak direction only (to LIC in the morning, from LIC in the evening). After August 13th, its back to two trains a day.
The ornate building you saw at the Gates Ave.station is the remnants of the Lowes Gates (it is said that Jackie Gleason got his start in vaudeville there).The express track is usually for the J/Z and the M runs local to Metropolitan Ave .However due to track replacement on the Bdwy Line between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Ave all trains are using the Local track until mid-August.The high School football field is for Franklin K.Lane( which doesn't even have a football team at all).From what I heard also that is Jamaica Ave.was suppose to be center tracked but due to WW1 and the fact that the Liberty Ave Line had opened ,the BRT(the operating co. before the BMT(now B division)) was forced to open the Jamaica El.as a 2 track line .
You sure he wasn't commenting on the theater on Howard Av & Bway. That would be just past the East end of the station. I don't think you can see anything on Gates due to the station walls.
I may have been away too long but I keep thinking that theater was the RKO Bushwick, indeed where Jackie Gleason got his start. For a while in the 70's it was used as a church, I think it has been demolished or is in the process..or just deserted. I forget what I saw on m last trip [March 2000] but it didn't look good.
I couldn't see any street signs at that point, but the building was on the right just as we pulled out of Gates Ave. It was completely white stone(like), but, like I said, it was obviously abandoned. There were metal store-front gates along the ground floor. It looked like it had been a theater. Most of the stone carving was around the large, missing, round windows on the top floor, which seemed like HUGE black holes. Icanthus leaves and cherubs were carved there, and there was a stone molding, probably dentils, separating what would be the 2nd floor and the "top" floor, IIRC. It remined me of Florentine architecture from the Renaissance.
It was the saddest part of the trip.
Well, not forced. It was decided to build the 2 track line to get it open quicker to meet the incredible demand for this line. The express track was never built because the BRT went into bankruptcy before it could be installed.
The thing you have to remember about Chambers St. is that it was a terminus when it originally opened in 1913. It was the BRT's showpiece station, much the same as the IRT's City Hall Loop station, which probably accounts for the tall ceilings and overall vastness. The two tracks on the west side came in from the Williamsburg Bridge (and were supposed to loop back to Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge, which never happened), while the two east side tracks, as you correctly observed, led to the Manhattan Bridge. When it became a through station in 1931, the two outer tracks continued down Nassau St. The station's status changed, since it was no longer a terminus, and those extra platforms became excess baggage and were closed.
Canal St. was a quasi-terminus at one time, as Broadway-Brooklyn locals (#14, later JJ) terminated on the center tracks during rush hours. Weekend J trains also terminated there before being extended to Chambers St.
You said it all about Bowery, although some people have said business has been picking up of late. Trains terminating at Canal St. used the center tracks.
I rode across the Williamsburg Bridge last fall, and our train assaulted the upgrade at 18 mph. They did a nice job rebuilding everything. Now, if they could do it as well and as quickly on the Manhattan Bridge. Because the Willy B's tracks are in the center, it hasn't had the same twisting problem as the Manny B. OTOH, its towers are bending towards each other. Pick your poison....
The J and Z run skip-stop beyond Myrtle Ave. At one time, there was express service all the way out to Eastern Parkway.
Yes, there is room for a middle track along Jamaica Ave., and there is one at 111th St. which is used for storage and layups.
When the outer three stations were closed, the el structure came down fairly quickly afterwards. OTOH, when the line was cut further back to 121st St., the abandoned structure remained standing for quite some time. It was still largely intact in October of 1988, and much of it was still there the last time I rode on that line in 1990.
Actually the LIRR also went over the Williamsburg to Chambers in the early part of the century crossing from the Bklyn LIRR on Atlantic to the Jamaica El at Chestnut Stree.
Hey Sarge, I have a slightly off-topic question:
Was that incident of the pellet-gun shooter anywhere near your precinct?
I thought the shooting was somewhere on Atlantic Ave. in East New York?
Doug aka BMTman
I haven't heard anything about it but I've been off the last 2 days.
Thanks all for your responses -- the line was a new experience for me. BTW, I actually used the Bowery stop once -- when my dad & I went to the Tenement Museum. It was barren then too.
>>> when my dad & I went to the Tenement Museum <<<
Pete;
Are you putting us on? Is there really a Tenement Museum? If so when did it open and what does it contain?
Tom
Check out The Official Site of the Lower East Side Tenement Museum. I've been there, it's an excellent museum. They are gradually reopening the apartments in the building and interpreting them in different eras, using the history of real tenants there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse;
Thanks for the link, I found it interesting, but it makes it seem like there are no longer tenements in New York. Is that true? I remember living in the "dumbbell" type three room apartment on 34th Street. We did have running water and a bathroom, but the bedroom window opened on an air shaft, and there were two windows in the front room, one sharing the fire escape with the next door neighbor. The kitchen/dining room had no window, and got its natural light from the front room. This type of housing seemed so common to me that it surprised me learn that a museum would be opened concerning it.
Tom
Tenements (in the traditional sense of the word) were phased out in the '30s, by legislative fiat - that's one of the reasons many buildings remained empty but reasonably well preserved above their retail floors. The museum is as much about the immigrant experience and the culture of the Lower East Side as anything else, the tenement is simply a vehicle for interpreting that experience. Certainly there are run-down, crowded apartments that we today might call tenements, but nothing quite as dingy as these. (Now they call them "efficiencies" or "studios", they DO have a little more light and decent plumbing and ventilation, and they come with absurd yuppie rents too.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone with a morbid interest in the legal distinctions between "old law tenements," "new law tenements," "class B multiple dwellings," and "class A multiple dwellings" can look it up in the Multiple Dwelling Law in any collection of NYS statutes. There are probably a few "tenements" some where in the city, but I believe that approval of any significant construction in one of them requires bringing it up to Class A standards.
Somtimes the press misuses terms.If my memory serves me right the Old Law was l89l, and the New Law l901. [I'll admit it's been years since I've read this stuff. ] My thinking is the airshafts and windowless inner rooms were outlawed by the New Law, not to mention fireproof staircases; you'll note almost all surviving buldings are either the T shape or H shape affording light and air to all rooms and more than an arm's length to your neighbor's window. That would put these post l901.I can remember a fire at l280 Walton in the Bronx that burned for almost a whole day. The news report called it an old law tenement despite the fact that it and most of the surrounding buildings were built in the 1920's.Journalism can give a lot of false impressions.As we probably know from coverage or opinions on some rail matters.
It's been a lot of years since I did L&T. I suspect your memory of this stuff (as imprecise as you imply) is more detailed than mine. Mouse mentioned that "tenements" were phased out by legislation in the 1930s. I wonder if he isn't really talking about class B multiple dwellings. (I think those were the ones that were the most recently constructed that still had common toilet facilities.)
I wonder if he isn't really talking about class B multiple dwellings. (I think those were the ones that were the most recently constructed that still had common toilet facilities.)
I'm not acquainted with the specifics of what type of building is what class, but you may well be right; I do know that the preserved tenement did have common toilet facilities. Next time I go back there (which I plan to do sometime relatively soon, as they have opened more of the building to the public since I was last there) I'll try and remember to ask that specific question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Next time when you get to Jamaica LIRR try the Bklyn line to Flatbush & Atlantic instead of the NY Line to Penn. You go right past a locomotive yard, then a very fast tunnel ride to ENY, (faster than any subway line) then a nice elevated ride through Bed/Stuy (2 blocks S/O the "A" Train tunnel) past Boys & Girls High School and St John's Interfaith Hospital. While in the tunnel try to see if you could spot the old Woodhaven Station. Its extremely dark there and easy to miss.
And very short platforms. (2 cars long?)
Are you sure? I seem to remember the Woodhaven LIRR station as being the size of a normal subway station.
I'm not sure, but I remember looking out the front window of a westbound train last year and being surprised at how short the platforms were.
While passing through the Woodhaven Station, you can still see the stairways up to Atlantic Ave. along with the (walled off) cut to the Atlantic branch. The station appears to be about 8 car-lengths long. I'd say it's less than a mile from the portal at Bolton's Landing.
I actually remember stopping at Woodhaven. Now a question about the East NY Station. Maybe someone knows. At the very end (the east end) of the Westbound platform as it goes into the tunnel there seems to be a closed up staircase going down. Does anyone know where that stairs lead? Possibly to the old station on the Bay Ridge Branch?? Or just maybe an old crossover and the stairs on the other side was removed? Anyone know??
The steps at the old Woodhaven Station on Atlantic Ave leads up to the old Woodhaven Station of the Rockaway Branch
When a Motorman wants to change Divisions, why must they take Requalification classes? And how often may they change divisions?
When one motorman transfers from one division to another,they have to get qualified in the new division because they aren't familiar with the physical characteristics of the new division. The rolling stock is similiar between the two divisions with the exception of the R44 and 46. I believe you must stay in one division for one year before transferring over to the other.
I was wondering. LIRR's LE's say you will need a car to be an LE. Does MNRR LE's need cars 2? or do all Trains start northnound from Grand Central?
Uh...What's an LE?
[What's an LE?]
Locomotive Engineer.
Most lines store all their trains in yards way out in the middle and ends of the lines overnight. According to the schedule there is nothing outbound between 1:30 AM and 5 AM. There are several inbound trips before the first outbound train gets to the location of the yard, so you might get stuck with no way to get to work, or have to leave at 1:30 the night before and take a nice nap in the train you'll be taking out later on. This is for Metro North. You need a car if you're assigned to West-of-Hudson service, since they (mostly) run trains in peak direction only.
For the LIRR, trains run about 24/7, though of course on reduced headways and defenitely not in diesel territory at night. Ronkonkoma every 60-90 minutes, Huntington about every 60 minutes, with a Port Jeff train thrown in (from Jamaica, not a shuttle), every 2 hours on the Port Wahington line. I don't have any other schedules, but I doubt Long Beach, the Hempsteads, or the Rockaways see any night service (but the N6 goes to Hempstead 24/7, and you can take the A to Rockaway). If you're going to operate MU trains, its possible without a car. For engine-hauled runs, don't try.
If you had a nickel for every time you've asked this question, you not only would be able to afford that car, but you wouldn't even need to get a job.
I decided that all the opinions stated here about Krispy Kreme donuts have done nothing to give me an idea of what they're like, so I decided to try a couple so that I could get my own opinion and add to the controversy.
I purchased an Original Glazed and Chocolate Covered Creme Filled donut from the KK stand at the Port Authority . . . they were pretty damn good. I wouldn't fall head over heals for them, but they're not bad. Very soft, light, and chewy.
I plan on trying some of the other flavors in the future
It'll have to be in the distant future, though, since if one were thinking up adjectives to describe me, "stringbean" and "shrimp" wouldn't be the first to come to mind . . .
But I did follow the donuts with a nearly 100-block walk from W.116th and Broadway to the Dyckman Street IND station via Riverside Drive and various deviations in Washington Heights and Fort Tryon Park (probably added up to 80 or 90 something blocks). Very pleasant walk and a great day to do so.
While you're at it how about trying Georgie's Pastry Shop (50 W 125th St.)? They have only two kinds of doughnuts, but I'd been interested in the opinion of some of our experts.
Hey Jersey D,
Sounds like a great walk. Something not many people do enough of these days. I would do a walk like that but I need my camera by my side; never know what goodie will be parked or passing by.
Anyway, KK has a good selection; I love the "white"-creme filled. Dunkin's closest entry would be a "vanilla cream filled", something they added since KK came on the scene. And not all Dunkins carry it. Pretty good donut for Dunkin. That damn powder wreaks havoc on the clothing though. Don't eat 'em against the wind.
Krispy also puts out some "specials" for different holidays; something else to look for.
In Toronto, gotta try Tim Horton's.
Joe C.
Maybe the folks at NYPD knows of the good places to buy donuts.
Joe if you are ever down this way, try the KK factory store on Route 1 in Alexander VA. You can watch the KK come off the oven. Then they light up the HOT donut sign and all the seats are taken.
BTW I missed Kings Highway Bagels.
I think a list of everybody's wierd transit dreams should be compiled on this site.
Anyway, my dream last night went like this:
I was about to go down the stairs of a station on the Lex Av Line, when I heard trolley bells coming from downstairs and somebody up top said it "Sounds like Boston" (alluding to the Boston Green Line) and I said that the Lexington Avenue Local was a trolley line.
I went down and then all of a sudden it was the Boston subway (not the green line neccesarily), but then a train of R-32's came in the station. In my dream, New York subway cars were occasionally used in the Boston subway. The R-32's were in their GOH condition, except that they still had straps instead of bars.
Another part of my dream made so much sense it freaked me out -- concession stands inside of each movie theatre instead of out in the lobby! This way, you wouldn't have to wait in long lines that are combined with people bound for all different movies, AND, if you want a refill in the middle of the movie, you wouldn't miss a thing!
That also brings me to another point . . . you know how just about every movie that portrays the NYC subway is either incorrect or not shot in New York? Suppose a movie came along which portrayed a foreign subway but used New York? Probably could and would happen . . .
I was about to go down the stairs of a station on the Lex Av Line, when I heard trolley bells coming from downstairs and somebody up top said it "Sounds like Boston" (alluding to the Boston Green Line) and I said that the Lexington Avenue Local was a trolley line.
From what I've heard about the overcrowding on the Lex, I can see how it could easily be mistaken for the MBTA Green Line.
-- David
Boston, MA
I had a dream once in which Chicago's 4000-series L cars were running in the Bronx on the D line.
In another dream, Flushing trains ran at ground level past Shea Stadium. Instead of R-36s, interurban cars with pantographs were used, and as a train approached Willets Point, it let out two short blasts on its horn, plus one long blast. It had triple horns, blowing a nice Bb major chord on the two short blasts; the long blast started on the same chord, then slid down a half step as the train went past. Right then and there was when I woke up.
In Canada (at least in Vancouver and Calgary) there is a chain of movie theaters (or should I saw theatres) called "SilverCity Cinemas", which are at a minimum 14-plexes (usually larger). They have large arcades, enough to be video arcades in themselves. They also have a Taco Bell Express, McDonald's Express, KFC Express, and Pizza Hut Express in the lobby. There are normal concession stands, but within the theater there are two vendors (much like at a sports stadium) on either side in the back - one sells drinks and the other sells popcorn and candy. Sounds alot like what you are describing...
jersey mike has graced us with his rapid transit dreams for quite a while... i thought that they were mostly the result of his twisted mind... tonight's post by jersey devil has me wondering if my diagnosis is wrong... a second jerseyite seems to be having strange transit dreams... this could be the outbreak of a serious disorder... however, if it remains contained to jerseyites, i don't intend on losing any sleep over it..
It is interesting to note that this outbreak seems to coincide with the arrival of The Bayonne Flyer...
Peace,
ANDEE
Heypaul, you may have something there. I used to live in Jersey.:-)
1. Auto-announcement worked beautifully the entire time (except for a few seconds at Brooklyn Bridge it thought we were at Westchester sq. and the next stop was Middletown Rd.)
2. Small problem, "Stuck Brake." Not sure if it was stuck applied or released, or what car.(Heard them talking about it at Pelham Bay Pk., 2:45PM)
3. At 125st Southbound, 3:20PM, over the external PA: "There's a kid with a blue shirt and hat attempting to write on the back of the train." The cops got him.
4. At 116st, some guy got kicked off the train for some reason, he tried to sneak back on in my car but the cops forcefully removed him. Also at that station, there was someone using a box to hold the door open so his friends could get on. Mayhaps he was the one kicked off?
5. Those really wide fold-up one seaters on the cab end of the cab cars can seat 2 people under the right conditions (one person is a thin railfan sitting against the wall, the other is a very attractive girl who askes if there is any room for her, and tries hard to stay as far away from the doorway as possible;)
BTW, while looking for the R-142 on the 2 (not running today) I saw, while on the redbird making the very trip it was supposed to make, the 142a on the 6. Both of us were heading southbound express (my train was going express on the local track to make up for lost time). I changed for the 4 at Grand Concourse and got the 142 at 14st (11:30AM). The train was back on schedule after being late all morning because every time it got to PBP, it left as the next train.
The Stuck brake happened on the 8:08 Pelham at Pelham which was my run. It turns out when I was trying to move a Kawasaki worker was doing something with the computer causeing that. This was not the fault of the train. So what happened next is a R33 left at 8:08 at 8:10 and I stayed on the R142A for the 8:12 Pelham.
Also I was the operator on the 14:52 Pelham and the NYPD did a fine job in removing all causeing delay or damage to the train. Tuesday a teen tried to do some kind of Vandelisam at Pelham but was arrested by police and they held him in the Mezz. with 9 cops.
What about your encounter with a certain Bostonian Weatherman???
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Yes Todd was on my train from 51 Street to 125 Street. It was nice to have him on board I should have showed him the Doppler Radar Feature on the R142A.
dave... do you know how many different representatives there are aboard the cars?... do they keep a log of the train's operation?... who determines whether a problem is the fault of the equipment or not?... who determines if the train stays in service or goes out of service?... when i rode the kawasakis on thursday, there was just 1 other person riding with the train operator?... is that usually an rci or higher level of supervisor?
OK heres the brake down.
2 Train Service Supervisors one with T/O and one with C/R
2 Road Car Inspectors
1 REP. from Cars and shops
4 Kawasaki Tech.
Undercover cops
For the train to go out of Service it is the call of both Train Service Supervisors that are with the train.
Rubber tires on a new fleet!!
All for a good laugh.
I was going to launch into my fanciful Queens subway extensions, but with $40 milion you could barely buy new station signs!
Hmmm. Maybe clean up Queens Plaza.
Andrew
Hmmm. Maybe clean up Queens Plaza.
At the very least they could paint the pillars = that awful shade of gold has GOT TO GO! Where should it go? Why, to Union Turnpike! The pillars at Queens Plaza must be painted PURPLE, as are those at 7th Avenue-53rd Street and other Purple Family stations.
This should be done as part of a general rehab of the station. They can put new tile up on the wall provided it is at least as dark (or, preferably, DARKER) a shade of Purple as what's there now.
wayne
Put the word "rapid" back into rapid transit.
Convert the LIRR Lower Montauk into a subway line (crossings intact). Most of the money would go toward silencing NIMBYS, either by bribing or less pleasant ways.
Isn't the major problem with that line (and the reason that service has been discontinued at the intermediate stops) that no one lives or works near it any more?
No. There are plenty of people who live there, but they wouldn't use it to go to Manhattan, because it dosen't go to Manhattan. Plenty of peole work there too (Maspeth is a major industrial center) but it never afforded too much versatility--apart from Jamiaca the only direct rides were from way out in LIRR diesel territory. It's not easy to ride there fromother parts of Queens. Its only subway connection is the 7 at Vernon-Jackson (until recently it also connected to the J at Richmond Hill.) And LIRR travel just within Queens is highly overpriced.
I'm all for converting it to a subway line (but I really doubt a mere four million would cut it.) This would invlove at least four things:
---A connection from the west end. The 7 is nearby but the Steinway tunnel is overcrowded. My heart says it could be a second life for the Queens end of the G. Or maybe a new route for the R.
---Electrification.
---Eliminate Grade crososings--we can't have those on the NYC subway!
---build subway quality stations--and some decent connections to the 7, the M, the J/Z, and Jamaica Station's E/J/Z
I'm all for it if the money could be found. Queens needs more subways!
Two problems come to mind: the freight traffic on the line and the NIMBYs. I understand that there is a fair amount of freight traffic, which would be displaced unless you allowed the freight trains to continue using the line along with the subway. The same NIMBYs who oppose increased LIRR usage of the line would surely oppose having the four or more trains per hour that a subway would entail.
The only real reason the NIMBY's oppose more LIRR service is simply because of those loud engines and horns they must deal with (why they moved near a RR thats been there for about 100 years is beyond me). I believe they cannot run trains after 6:30 on the Lower Montauk because of this (that's why the last train out of LIC during this GO is at 5:56, even though there usually is a Port Jeff out of HP later on, which now originates at JAM).
How about electrifying it, using subway equipment, but make it a railroad (the SQR, South Queens Railway). It could keep the RR crossings and have 30-60 minute headways, plus freight could be accommodated. Use Metrocard at stations, and allow direct transfers at LIC (7 and G) and Richmond Hill (J/Z). Put a stop at the Metro Mall for the transfer to the M. A stop at the HIP hospital at Metropolitan near Woodhaven would attract many customers going between the Mall, Jamaica shopping centers, and the hospital.
Future branches could include LIC-Bay Ridge, JAM-Bay Ridge. Maybe a bridge over the Narrows for connection with the SIR North Shore, to NJ for the HBLR...
I'd annex the LIRR Brooklyn, Hunter's Point and L.I. City Lines.
Then build a connection between LIRR and the subway in Brooklyn (Atlantic) for through Rush Hour trains. (midday, nights, weekends change at Atlantic--reconfigure area for a free transfer).
The LIRR should end at Jamaica (except for Penn Station Service).
i wouldn't spend any more money to change the system.... $40 million would hardly make a dent... i would use the money to change my general standard of living...perhaps subscribe to webtv-plus... perhaps buy a controlling interest in subtalk from david, and deny access to my enemies... perhaps get a full time publicity agent to further sensationalize my life, hoping in that manner to further subvert the american way... perhaps buy a $120 monthly express bus pass, and spend a month riding express buses all over new york... set up a foundation to find a cure for the devastating mental disorder that affects most railfans...
Nothing, for a $40 million budget surplus for NYCT is just on paper. It doesn't really exist.
Besides, if the NYCT actually had a $40 million budget surplus, the Vampire State would just cut the budget by $40 million. New York gets screwed every time.
Oh, why not another thread about the R142(a) test train(s)?!
I know we touched on this briefly before.
OK, by a show of hands (on your mouse, keyboard or input device
of your choice), how many people feel a basic premise of
railroading has been violated by the lack of a passenger-accessible
Emergency Brake?
If someone is being dragged (yeah, I'm sure it can "never happen"
with the new door tech), how do I make the train stop, other than
pushing the chat room button and making a polite request to
the train crew?
jeff... i think there is a passenger emergency brake pull inside a little door at the ends of the car... i haven't had a chance to try it yet :-)
( what is happening here on subtalk?... i'm asking and answering questions about the r-142's, and jeff is making jokes... the next thing you know, i'll be putting up a website with pictures of the new equipment, and he'll be putting up scrolling text..)
And you'll be bragging about your MDBF in your new job as head of a northern maintainence facility....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
what is happening here on subtalk?... i'm asking and answering questions about the r-142's,
Only you could be so obnoxious & self absorbed as to believe that saying "I think" constitutes answering a question. Stick with the jokes.
The R142s do have emergency brakes, just not where you would expect them to be. They are inside their own little compartments next to some of the doors. I don't know if they initiate a full emergency brake application or a smoother "passenger emergency brake" application. They are posted with "Emergency Brake" signs similar to those on the rest of the IRT (and some of the B-divison trains) - "open door, alarm will sound, pull cord." Hopefully, the doors will stay closed better than the boxes in use on the Redbirds and R62s, which always seem to need a good smack.
One some of the redbirds, the door is duct-taped shut (not good if you really need that brake now)!
Is this railroading's answer to chaining shut fire exits in night clubs?
Might wind up making a good court case against MTA either by a drag victim or his/her heirs. Hope it don't happen but I can just hear THAT coming up in court.
Amen. You should see the lame excuse offered in another post on this thread. If the spring holding the box shut is broken, the TA should either fix the spring or disable the annoying alarm. If you're going to tape the box shut, you might just as well take a knife and cut the brake cord.
07/22/2000
[On some of the redbirds, the door is duct-taped shut (not good if you really need that brake now)! ]
I would guess the spring that holds the door is broken and with the movement of the train the door opens up and keeps setting off the alarm. Maybe that explains why the duct tape is holding the door shut.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have discovered the world's shortest railroad, with a total length of about 150 feet. It goes from the coal-storage shed to the coal-burning shed in a computer camp in russia. track gauge is 750 mm, and the only car is human-powered(pushed from behind)
Angels Flight, an incline railway in downtown Los Angeles, advertises itself as the "shortest railway in the world." It connects Hill Street at its lower level (just steps from the Pershing Square subway station) to California Plaza at its upper level. The relevant statistics, distance and elevation, escape me. Incidentally, are the computers in the Russian computer camp coal-fired?
How about the incline cable railway on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls?? That seems pretty short. Its more like a diagonal elevator.
Jeff;
The slogan for Angels Flight is "Shortest Railway in the World." Its total length is 278 feet. Although someone in Russia may be pushing a car on a shorter track, this is a passenger rail line open to the general public with scheduled revenue service. I have not seen the Canadian Niagra Falls line so I do not know its length or if it is a common carrier.
Tom
IMHO the "railway" at Niagara Falls is, as Jeff described it, a horizontal elevator. It also probably does not meet the definition of a common carrier, since travel on it is solely in conjunction with other access fees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are two inclined railways in Niagara Falls,Ontario. One of these is the Maid of the Mist Inclined Railway which is a single track line with a passing siding in the middle. It transports people from the street level down to the level of the Niagara River.In order to ride this line you must purchase a ticket for the Miad of the Mist boat.
The other inclined is the "Falls Inclined Railway" operated by the Niagara Parks Commission. It uses two cars on two separate tracks. I believe that this is the longer of the two railways but I can't be sure.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ahh... the only one I'm familiar with is the Maid of the Mist one... we rode that in '93. Got some real interesting shots of the falls, complete with water droplets on my lens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They closed down the original Angels Flight in 1963 and that pissed off a lot of people, but nothing was done until a new one oponed a couple of years back. It gives a little more flavor to the home of the NBA Champion Lakers. BTW, our subway Red Line has added three more stations. Who knows? We may become a player in the rapid transit industry yet.
>>> a new one oponed a couple of years back <<<
Fred;
You got it wrong! This is not a new Angel's Flight. They are using the original cars and even the original entry gates. It was just OOS for a while (36 years) for track work. It is true that the track was relocated one block south of the original ROW, and they spent an extremely long time in the planning stage, but Southern California takes its rail transportation very seriously. :-)
Tom
Tom: There was a movie with I believe Humphrey Bogart that featured the Angel's Flight Railway. Do you recall the title? I'll answer your question about the Queensboro Plaza trackage tonight as I am headed out the door right now.
Larry,RdbirdR33
Larry;
Sorry I do not remember a Bogart film with Angels Flight, but it was in the background in the James Stewart film, The Glenn Miller Story.
Tom
As a Californian I stand corrected. I meant the track was moved and I wasn't clear about it. Of course, I'm not sure too many of us take our rail transportation seriously. We have too many people who refuse to get out of their cars. I rode the bus to LA from Arcadia when I accompanied my daughter to jury duty two weeks ago, and it was so convenient and easy. And the Red Line can whisk you from place to place on its route. If more people really demanded better rail t ransportation we might get it.
I hear they've recently upgraded their computers with new, modern vacuum tube circuts. Pretty soon, they'll be able to play PONG!
Arriving at LGA at 3:15 Thursday afternoon, I high-tailed it via the Q-33 and 7 to GCT to catch the northbound R-142A 6 (I wish it were green!).
The train was right on time.
Everything worked.
The ride was smooth and comfortable.
And why not? It was operated by SubTalk's own Pelham Bay Dave! And Dave Jr. was even along. Thanks for the great ride, Dave!
I returned downtown on a 2 Redbird which reached 48mph approaching Times Square.
Gotta run... time for Transit and Weather Together!
I'm glad you enjoyed the ride. I think I have mastered the train today after all they let me run the train for 3 full trips instead of 2 trips. I will also run the R142A for one trip on Saturday which will be the 3:45PM out of Pelham Bay.
Todd, I hope to see you again
Thank You for Rideing
with MTA
New York City Transit
tonight's era slide show will be presented by joe saitta, noted writer and traction photographer...
the show will include slides of the recently opened pcc line in kinosha, wisconsin, the trolleys of washington dc, as well as shots from systems in north america and western europe...
( the slide show will be preceded by a brief preview of approximately 25,000 items that will soon be auctioned off on ebay )
when i was on the 142a's, the train was delayed for about a minute in one of the stations...
the male's automated voice started to say: "we are sorry for...
when the female voice interrupted to say:" i saw you staring at that woman who got on in the 4th car"
the male's voice said: " what are you talking about?"
the female voice answered: " don't play dumb with me, i know you have grown tired of me"....
( i stole the concept from the movie "airplane" )
According to an article in last Tuesday's Atlantic City Press three gasoline cans with ignition timers were placed underneath the offices of the Winchester and Western Railroad in Cumberland County, South Jersey. They were discovered by an employee at 6 AM Monday. Two timers were incorrectly hooked up and the third was set for 7 AM. State Police disarmed it at 6:55.
After reading the link, the paper never used the word "Terrorism". Sounds like attempted arson.
Point taken. I used it because of the recent thread about the bombing in England.
aw man. This can't be good for railfans. On more than one occasion I've gone down and taken self guided tours of the yard on weekends when nobody was around. Now I'll bet the police will be more vigilent. BTW i think the "offices" are either a trailer or an office car (which would explain why the employees saw the bomb.)
My older son and I toured there about three years ago - we stopped by the office, were invited in, given a quick tour of the shops, and told where it was safe for us to go (and where we weren't to go either). We followed their rules and popped in the office again to thank them as we departed. They were good folks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
After reading the link, the paper never used the word "Terrorism". Sounds like attempted arson.
Clearly, it was attempted arson. However, the two categories are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps the police don't have enough facts, yet, to call it terrorism. When they find out "who" they will find out "why." Could be a labor dispute, a jealous boy friend, a business competitor, or who knows what.
The most troubling aspect of the case is that the device was set to go off an hour after the beginning of the work day, although it had been placed on site in the middle of the night. That suggests that the object was murder, not just property damage.
I've noticed small stickers inside the cars. Some have a '*' and some have a 'V'.
Does anyone know what they mean?
Have a nice weekend !!
Usually on my half day off from work I would buy an all day Metro fare card ($5.00). This gives me a chance to hop on and off the Metrorail system to photograph buses in varies location as well as run a few errands around the system (like picking up a side order from a Hong Kong style deli in Wheaton for dinner).
Anyway I catch my VRE at Union Station for my ride home in the early evening. I usually pass on my farecard to some tourist at the fare machine so they can enjoy their first Metrorail ride for free.
Since I'm tranfering the card to another person, could I expect the Metro police to write me a summons?
If they have a "non-transferable" proviso in their rules and regulations I imagine that technically they could but if I were you and they did that to me the first call I would make when I got home would be to the local media outlet. Then watch the s**t hit the fan.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's playing double or nothing.
No. Whenever I'm in Washington (or traveling around my home in Baltimore), I frequently give away my farecards when I'm through traveling for the day. Remember that some people will turn around and sell these cards so they can get money for a snort. Other than that your hands are clean.
Eric Dale Smith
In NYC, giving away (not selling!) an unlimited MetroCard after you leave the system is legal. There was a recent thread on nyc.transit discussing whether it's legal or advisable to swipe in a stranger but not to actually hand them the card. Most felt it inadvisable; the legality question was a bit confusing, but it seems as though the act is not legal, even if you won't be using the card until the next morning, due to a technicality.
Most felt it inadvisable; the legality question was a bit confusing, but it seems as though the act is not legal, even if you won't be using the card until the next morning, due to a technicality.
Why? What technicality?
>>> Why? What technicality? <<<
KMA;
In the great Subtalk tradition of providing answers without checking the facts, I will take a guess that the purchase of a MetroCard grants a licence to the owner to use it for transportation. Swiping the card for someone else would exceed the licence. OTOH, giving the card away to someone else after leaving the system would be transferring the licence.
That's kind of like the licence you get when you buy application software for a computer.
Tom
That's certainly logical. When I get around to it, I'll have to ask for a copy of the "tariffs and conditions of use" mentioned on the back of the card. I'll let you know.
A simpler way of putting it is that one cannot pass the card through the fence and one must carry the card used through the turnstile (as if it gets sucked into a slot and pops out at the other end). Although your British explanation is fine too.
>>> your British explanation is fine too <<<
Pigs;
British explanation?? Did you read the wrong post? I was merely speculating as to what the technicality is that prevents one from swiping a Metrocard for someone else as opposed to giving the card to someone else after leaving the system. i.e. why one cannot pass the Metrocard through the fence. No reference to Great Britain was made.
Tom
He was using his usual snide, sarcastic manner in refering to your spelling of the word license/licence. Just ignore him and he'll go away. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
No, I won't go away.
I haven't gone away after the last year and a half have I?
>>> your spelling of the word license/licence <<<
Andee;
I guess I should have caught that when I posted, but it was at 4:00 A.M. and my spellchecker must have been tired and let the alternate spelling get through. OTOH, since I was able to make Pig's day for him, I'm happy.
Maybe we should all include won or too mistakes in our postings so he can do his nitpicking thing and have the joy of correcting the mistakes.
Tom
Except that's not the case. I can swipe myself in and then, before passing through the turnstile, toss the card in the trash. Perfectly legal.
The problem with swiping in strangers is that the TA requires that you not transfer the card to someone else until you've finished your ride. By swiping in a stranger, you're in effect transferring the card to the stranger -- and he's immediately transferring it back to you, before he's even begun his ride.
The only exception to this is the "value" MC which allows up to four folks to travel on the SAME card, incl. four Transfers.
Of course here what the authorities would see is that all four are going the same direction AND the card would stay in the hands of the original owner, which is different from how this thread started.
Mr t__:^)
I'm visiting New York August 8-11 and will be spending some (most) of my daytimes riding the subway. (Yankees and Broadway in the evenings.)Would love to meet any subtalkers who would like to go exploring (or who would like to show off his or her vast knowledge of the system.)
Things I want to do most: Ride the new 142's (never rode the #6), check out the 63rd street connection, explore the BMT Broadway line, and whatever else anyone recommends.
Hope to hear from a few of you.
Bill
Today's Star-Ledger has an article on art (paintings, sculpture, murals) in the HBLR stations. No examples online.
We have some pictures of the works at Martin Luther King, Jr. Drive in the HBLR section. But they claim there's 60 pieces of art in the system. Guess I better go back and look again :-)
-Dave
I'm not too sure I like seeing a 19th century steam engine atop the Essex Street station (but I think the LV ran down the street). At Exchange Place the bronze platform system map seems pretty accurate. What surprised me was to discover a slice of Antarctica on the south end of the platform surface of Danforth Avenue station. I did not realize the system was going beyond Patagonia. In general, I have to admit that I like most of the station art, especially if it remains clean, unbroken.
What surprised me was to discover a slice of Antarctica on the south end of the platform surface of Danforth Avenue station. I did not realize the system was going beyond Patagonia.
One thing at a time. First, we have to get it extended to Port Richmond. Then St. George. Then Tottenvile. The real trick will be to get a bridge or tunnel to take it to Perth Amboy. Or to get the West side line extended through the Ironbound to Penn Station.
2 days ago my PATCO train emerged from the tunnel and onto the steep grade up the bridge when the wheels started slipping badly. The driver had the throw the train out of ATO and then get it back under control. For the rest of th4e trip he had to manualize and he still had frequent slip problems. I know that subway cars don;t have much adhesive weight and I was wondering if you notice this problem in NYC or if your acceleration is so poor that it isn't a factor. Also how does the all ATO DC Metro handle wheel slip.
Should this train be moving backwards?
You reduce power till you get a good grip on the rail. In NY and with a 6 car train you should not slip on the rail as the other cars in back are pushing the slippy lead car.
Was the PATCO train running with one car?
It was a 2 car set comming out of the tube onto the ben franklin br. the grade there is very steep and long and with the trains in ATO they will try to maintain 40 mph. would train legnth even matter above ground where all the wheels are on the same slippery rail?
Yes. Unscientific equation: train adhesion = adhesion/wheel times number of wheels.
Yes. Unscientific equation: train adhesion = adhesion/wheel times number of wheels.
But f=ma. Force equals mass times acceleration. The force causing the wheel slippage on the upgrade is the force of gravity. (The acceleration in question is "g" the acceleration due to the gravity.) Since both the number of wheels and the mass of the train are proportional to the number of cars, in theory, a longer train will slip just and much on a long upgrade as a shorter train.
Anyone with actual experience care to comment?
[in theory, a longer train will slip just and much on a long upgrade as a shorter train.]
Yes, as long as the rails are uniformly slippery. In reality, the more wheels you have, the better the chance that some of them will be on a less slippery portion of rail.
[Anyone with actual experience care to comment?]
[in theory, a longer train will slip just and much on a long upgrade as a shorter train.]
Yes, as long as the rails are uniformly slippery. In reality, the more wheels you have, the better the chance that some of them will be on a less slippery portion of rail.
Good point.
Adhesion is not a factor of length of the train. If the entire rail were equally slippery and if the cars were all equally loaded, we'd expect to see equal slipping on all wheels. However, if there is one (or a few) slippery spot(s), then the rest of the train would limit the amount of slipage by maintaining the desired speed without tractive effort from the wheelset that is slipping.
This happens quite often on PATCO at the portals, mainly those on the Ben Franklin where there are relatively steep grades. On damp and wet days operators used to switch out of ATO eastbound at 8th St and westbound at City Hall for just this reason. For similar reasons ATO shuts down entirely on snowy and icy days, even in the tunnel sections. I don't know about WMATA...
So that's why when I visited Wednesday the PATCO operator kept switching to manual while outside (and back to auto while underground).
I was wondering what I should do if I am ding my railfan thing and I fall onto the subway tracks and there is no train comming. I notice that most systems place the 3rd rail on the platform side. Sould I try and hop back onto the platform? Can I stand on the safty cover on the 3rd rail? Sould I walk down to the platfrom end and use the stairs there?
Whoops....SPLAT!!! I'm ok. No really. I just have to climb up...ZAAAAAAP!
Mike
I know in NY most 3rd rail are on the other side away from the platform. Washington is the same.
I go under the platform.
In Philly the 3rd rail is on the platform side so that workmen can hid e in the wall flutes
[I know in NY most 3rd rail are on the other side away from the platform. Washington is the same. I go under the platform.]
That may not work in New York. I have heard that there isn't sufficient clearance under the platform edge to avoid the third rail shoes.
And, I assume, the 3rd rail shoe on the side away from the 3rd rail is at essentially the same voltage as the shoe touching the 3rd rail?
And, I assume, the 3rd rail shoe on the side away from the 3rd rail is at essentially the same voltage as the shoe touching the 3rd rail?
Yes. All of the shoes on a car are directly connected.
Considering what you can see the shoes if you look straight down through the gap between the train and the platform as your are boarding, i'd be very surprised if you could avoid them.
[what I should do if I am ding my railfan thing]
I certainly hope you don't ding your railfan thing in public!!!???
Watch out for the rats!!!
One time I dropped some photographs on the LIRR elevated line in Merrick, so after the train left, I jumped down to the roadbed, to recover said photograps. (The third rail is NOT on the platform side.)
I then decided that it was to far to jump back up to the platform level, and so did walk to the end of the platform and walked up the steps.
At least the LIRR doesn't have 90 second headways.
Elias
On the E line way back when I had a beloved R1-9 and city bound about 5oo feet outside of Sutphin Blvd. saw this dark form go to the tracks. I immediately dumped the air [had just finished lunch by the way] and was ever so pleased to see this fool succeed in getting back on the platform BY HIMSELF. We ground to a stop about 50 feet past him and I told him of his stupidity in railroad language [blue]. A cop showed up, we proceeded; returning to Jamaica I saw the same cop and he told me the guy had just come from the south and didn't know of the danger. They do have trains in the south that take a lot longer to stop. He went to the tracks to pick up ONE DOLLAR that he dropped.Oy vey, great guggamooga, or whatever.
I actually took a one day course on what to do. Because I have poor vision, (legally blind), I was able to take part in a course the Transit Museum was having. It taught blind and visually impaired people what to do. We actually went down onto the tracks, with the current turned off, of course, and groped around for awhile.
Don't go under the platform! It's dangerous because you could get struck and electrocuted by a contact shoe from a passing train. The current DOES flow from one side of the undercarage to the other, so even if the third rail is on the other side the electricity will still get ya'. Also, people like to throw used hypodermic needles under there. And in some stations, you can actually fall down to another level! If you're not too hurt, try to get to the ladder at the end of the station and climb back up. If you're strong enough, (I'm too fat,) hoist yourself onto the platform. Yell like mad. Tell someone to watch for a coming train and to move their arms left to right very vigorously. This is the universal symbol for stop to train operators. As a last resort, if it's a concrete roadbed and a train is about to make you the splat-de jour, light face down in trench between the rails. That's right. Kiss that filthy, dirty, rat-doodoo intensive water with all you have. It may just save your life. My last piece of advice, PRAY!!!
I agree with everything you said except for the last piece of advice, better to spend that time thinking of a solution, or channeling your energy to make that jump up to the platform.
In NYC, all the rails have power. Including the running rails. The signal system is run by short circuits between rail sections. Read the Signal Explanation Section under Signal Tech on this site for more info on that. But, if you do happen to meet the tracks, well, if you are tall, you should try to climb back onto the platform. If you're short, you have to try your chances at the stairs at the end of the platform bacause not every end of every platform has stairs. God forbid a train were to come, jump to the other track(s). If all the tracks have trains or bot have trains coming, hide in between the support beams. If the "No Clearence" sticker isn't there, you won't be in the fouling point of the train. If the "No Clearence" sticker is present, uh oh.
In NYC, all the rails have power. Including the running rails. The signal system is run by short circuits between rail sections.
How much voltage is in the running rails when no train is in the block?
How much voltage is in the running rails when no train is in the block?
It's something ridiculously small, like 10V between the rails. Nothing like the 600V (approximate and variable) between the third rail and ground.
During rush hour, the 3rd Rail power is turned up to meet the power requirements of more trains.
The third rail stays at the 600 volt potential, only the amperage goes up as more motors draw on it. The ONLY way the third rail voltage would go higher than 600 would be if a train that has regenerating braking was feeding the current back into the third rail.
NYCT isn't that sophisticated yet, maybe one day.
>>> The third rail stays at the 600 volt potential <<<
Dan;
WOW, that makes me feel better, if it fluctuated upwards to 650 v DC, and you touched it, it would really smart! :-^)
Tom
Most rail lines have power in all the rails for signals and cab signals. However the potential differance runs between the rails and not the ground. Also the power is so low that it won't really light you up. Finally you'd have to make a complete circut between the non-rusty parts of the rail.
Twinkle twinkle little srat, power = I squared R
Most rail lines have power in all the rails for signals and cab signals. However the potential differance runs between the rails and not the ground. Also the power is so low that it won't really light you up. Finally you'd have to make a complete circut between the non-rusty parts of the rail.
Twinkle twinkle little star, power = I squared R
On the LIRR Main Line near Forest Hills I have seen a group of kids sit on the third rail shield, and sometimes use it as a springboard for jumping. I've seen them walk across all four tracks several times. I think two of them live in houses directly adjacent to the tracks, one on each side, so rather than go all the way around they simply walk across. I noticed one of the group (the smartest of the bunch IMHO) only sits on the shield with his friends while the signal is -. When it is / or |, he moves.
[On the LIRR Main Line near Forest Hills I have seen a group of kids sit on the third rail shield, and sometimes use it as a springboard for jumping. I've seen them walk across all four tracks several
times. I think two of them live in houses directly adjacent to the tracks, one on each side, so rather than go all the way around they simply walk across. I noticed one of the group (the smartest of the
bunch IMHO) only sits on the shield with his friends while the signal is -. When it is / or |, he moves.]
Kids, huh? I suppose that means they haven't yet made any contributions to the human gene pool (though today, you can never be sure ...) Which means, of course, that if they're a little careless one day, it's Darwin Award time!
Eugenics in action!
Kids used to walk on the third rail shield on the P&W between Radnor and Villanova before the track rebuilding of 15 or 20 years ago. They would even walk on it near places where the shield, having rotted away, was missing.
On my one ride on the Rt 100 the car had to stop to let some kids cross the tracks.
So you are saying that the 3rd rail cover is strong enough to stand on?
[So you are saying that the 3rd rail cover is strong enough to stand on?]
I said the third rail cover WAS strong enough for KIDS to stand on. Nothing further should be inferred.
And, no, I don't suggest that you try it.
Bob
The kids are probably teens in this case, I doubt much heavier than older persons if at all.
I weigh 90 kilograms, that's heavier than many people. There are certainly people heavier than that, but also many lighter people.
So you weight 180 pounds. You'd better watch out. If pork prices rise someone might take you to market.
He'll be bringing in the bacon.
91 kg = 218 pounds
>>> 91 kg = 218 pounds <<<
Pigs;
Are those British kilograms or British pounds? My own inferior education (and dealings with some agricultural importers) taught me there were 2.2 pounds to a kilogram, not 2.4.
Tom
[monty python accent]
"Do you mean an African swallow or a European swallow?"
:-)
-- David
Boston, MA
You are right.
We wouldn't need these silly conversion numbers if we used only one system (which should be metric).
The metric system is used by overweight ppl like yourself to appear lighter. What sounds more overweight, 91 or 218? Also the metric system with its biger units is far less precise.
Metric units can go as low as 10-24 (yocto-) and as high as 1024 (yotta-). And it's easy to use decimals places and convert units. Try to say that about the English system.
I don't think we should take an off topic diversion into metric of all things. If you want to, use e-mail.
The metric system is used by overweight ppl like yourself to appear lighter.
In that case I wouldn't even bother with metric. I'd just measure myself in stones (14 pounds), short hundredweight (100 pounds) or long hundredweight (8 stones).
Or slugs, which is the "Real" or "Correct" system unit of mass (not pounds which is a unit of force.)
You said overweight, not overmass.
Well because F=ma and because i don't think you subjecting yourself to a chronic acceleration, my statement of overweight can be directly attributed to one of overmass.
In that case one can measure themselves either way.
Pounds are used in U.S. Customary and Imperial measurements as both mass and weight. The system is too primitive for a distinction. Then somebody decided that the USC and Imp systems needed a mass unit and named it the slug to express his displeasure of the system.
Otherwise the Bureau of Standards (or whatever it's called) would calculate the official U.S. pound in terms of a Newton, not a Kilogram.
As an effort to insult the metric system I round off the conversions. 2 lb/kg, 2km/mile, 4L/gal 2.5cm/inch
The Metric system has been the official measurement system of the United States for over 100 years, in fact, the US was one of the first countries to adopt metric as its official system. All of the English measurements in the US (including the uniquely American 16 ounce pint) are defined in terms of their metric equivalent.
It may be defined as official, but the great unwashed don't know it and won't use it. Every highway in the US is posted in English. Most people think it's too complicated, but they've been using a similar system all their lives - it's our money.
The switch to metric worked in other countries, with much higher illiteracy rates than the United States.
The failure of the United States has only to do with the unwillingness of the government to change it.
While the UK has not completely switched over, it has made much greater progress than the United States. The matter had to do with the fact that Britain had to be part of a unified European economy and there wasn't enough of a market to produce things for Britain only. The United States has neither of these problems.
Canada has switched over and I doubt those two reasons are why. It's not in Europe, and even if it does not have a large enough internal economy, then it's primary trading partner is the US, with which trading in metric is not an advantage.
British roads are still signed in Imperial because, simply, the Chunnel is for trains (phew, back on topic :-).
>>> The failure of the United States has only to do with the unwillingness of the government to change it. <<<
Pigs;
The government of the United States has changed over. The military uses metric measurements in all its range calculations, and most specifications put out to bid have metric measurements. The people of the United States have not embraced metric measurements (except those who buy sodas in two liter bottles), because for the most part they do not care about the rest of the world, business caters to the people, and since the people do not take kindly to being forced to do anything by the government, forcing a change has not been high on the list of things successful politicians want to do.
>>> British roads are still signed in Imperial because, simply, the Chunnel is for trains <<<
The Chunnel has drive aboard trains which carry motorists sitting in their cars. This is a true blow to Great Britain which may have to switch over to the other side of the road with the increasing motor traffic from Europe.
Tom
I hope so. It's only by divine force that I got out of London alive. Pretty hard to remember to look the OTHER way before crossing the street because the traffic is coming the OTHER way! Wake up Ed.
You think that is hard? Try remembering to go the right way around a traffic circle.
I thought that the military stiled used gallons (liters are way too small anyway) because the standard gasoline transport in the US Army is the 5 gallon jerry can.
You bet your life it is....
But...
What if you lose!
It sounds like you're _planning_ on falling into the tracks. (The more you think aboot it the more likely it is to happen) Since you aand all other railfans will be at the forward end of the platform,
1) I would walk to the ladder
2) I f a train was coming, it would be nearly stopped by the time it got to you
3) I see track workers using the third rail shield as a step routinely.
4) What is up with Chicago, where they don't use thrid rail sheilds at all? (But still a heck of a town)
4) What is up with Chicago, where they don't use thrid rail sheilds at all? (But still a heck of a town)
Boston doesn't have sheilds on the third rail either. One of the guys on our little Boston T Party last weekend commented that in some ways it's actually safer for the third rail to not have a sheild. That way, people don't get complacent about it the way they do when it has a sheild; they know to always avoid it like a cobra. Any thoughts?
-- David
Boston, MA
Well the Shield also keeps ice and sticks and leaves off the 3rd rail and when the 3rd is placed on the platform side it can be used as a step.
>>> 2) I f a train was coming, it would be nearly stopped by the time it got to you <<<
Dave;
What a comforting thought. Being hit by a train going 15 mph rather than 40 mph. Maybe there could be an open casket at the memorial service.
Tom :-)
I think the point was that a train going 15 MPH can stop within a much shorter distance than a train going 40 MPH.
-- David
Boston, MA
If you won the TA lottery and you had your choice of the following prizes which one would you chose:
A) A US&S 2 headed interlocking signal w/ trip arm, mounting stand, ladder, call on light, control box and key by button.
B) A motorman's cab from any train past or present
C) 2 US&S penumatic switch motors with industrial compressor, control box and 100 feet of cable and air hose.
D) A turnstyle and token booth combination. Booth is wired to turnstyle for acceptance of transfers. Booth comes with A/C.
And the big winner is.....
D. Turnstile and token booth. Use it for my office and make my team pay a fare when they want something from me. (Today was one of those days weeks months years).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll take (B) A motorman's cab from any train past or present. Prefreably an R68A. I want a brake with pressure so I can make a SHHHHHHHHH noise all day long. If they happen to run out, I wantunlimited rides for life. No, not a $63.00 MetroCard.
We all know about those signs that still read H&M trains or Trains to Reading terminal or Conrail Seashore trains, but what about old signs that are still valid, just horribly out of style or use. At the 12/13th PATCO station there is a sign in a stairway that reads "DO NOT SPIT: Perserve Public Health" it is obviously from the 30's. Are there any signs like this in the NYC Subway?
TAKE NOTICE: In case of zepplin attack this subway station can be used as a bomb shelter.
Yeah. You'll find the odd "Don't enter the tracks" sign, or others, from as early as pre-unification times here and there in the NYC subway.
Andrew
At Lexington Avenue 51 St., there is a pre-unification sign tacked up to the center support coulumns, across the tracks from the platform that read, "ALL PERSONS ARE FORBIDDEN TO ENTER UPON OR CROSS THE TRACKS -- THE INTERBOROUGH RAPID TRANSIT CO." It is well-covered with grime and barely readable, but once a dark blue sign with white lettering. I think I also saw one at 23rd St.
Yes, there is one at 23rd Street - I've photographed it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, on at least one of the boats used for the Staten Island Ferry, there is a prominent notice by one of the entrance stairs along the lines of "INSTRUCTIONS TO MERCHANT VESSELS IN CASE OF ATTACK". Not an attack by enemy vessels*, mind you, but an atomic attack on New York City.
The odd thing (other than the fact that this Cold War relic is still pinned to the wall) is that the instructions are clearly for the CREW -- basically, if you're in port, evacuate the passengers to the nearest fallout shelter,** and if you're underway, proceed out of the harbor to an assembly point designated by radio -- but they are posted in a public area nowhere near the bridge.
*Can you imagine the havoc of a hostile warship running free in New York harbor?
**Not terribly realistic, is it? Assuming the crew wouldn't do it voluntarily out of self-preservation, the passengers would force the crew to take to sea at full steam, whether or not the ferry was underway! And assembly point be dashed -- if a merchant vessel can pick up the assembly message, so could an enemy bombing plane.
My mother always told me about the one on the Bronx Whitestone Bridge: IN CASE OF AIR RAID, DRIVE OFF BRIDGE
Elias
Meaning that its better to die diving from a bridge than being fried by Commie bombers???
>>>Meaning that its better to die diving from a bridge than being fried by Commie bombers??? <<<
Without question.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You have got to be kidding!!!!!!! In the capital of the world we see signs like that one. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Our taxe money hard at work once again in a system that has the government looking out for our safety and protecting us against..... well oh! hang on, uh! I must think of somet,Oh ya,ummm there must be something they're protecting us against.no?
There are (or were, until recently) similarly old no-spitting signs in some IND stations. (In Brooklyn, maybe? Broadway-ENY?)
>>>>but what about old signs that are still valid, just horribly out of style or use. At the
12/13th PATCO station there is a sign in a stairway that reads "DO NOT SPIT: Perserve Public Health<<<
Actually, I'd just as soon people wouldn't spit in the subway, or in public, today. We got a city full of spitters. Maybe Rudy oughtta reinstall the signs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
On the ACMUs there are still "NO SPITTING" (and no to a couple of other things) signs in the cars that have to have been put there by the NY Central (white sign with dk. green or blue lettering; not standard blue stripe, lettering beneath, MTA logo in the corner). Some people have covered the curved portion of the P with white-out and connected the P and I with a horizontal line right in the middle. One time, I'm sitting across from the bathroom, under the modified sign, and someone comes out with a foul smell trailing behind. Someone remarked "he didn't follow the rules!"
The Chicago Transit Authority, with its passion for "modernizing" everything in sight, managed to overlook a sign attached to the ticket agent's booth at the Fullerton "L" station for thirty plus years. It was a Notice to Passengers posted by the Northwestern Elevated Company in the early years of the century. It survived the Northwestern (Yerkes' company), the Chicago Rapid Transit Company, and the CTA. It was there in 1978, when I last lived in Chicago, but was gone the last time I checked. I can only hope that someone managed to save it.
There was, until a few years ago, an original "DOWN TOWN EXPRESS TRAINS" sign near the southern end of the southbound platform at Times Square on the 7th Ave. line, complete with arrow pointing to the express track.
I remember another one now--in the Hunterspoint Avenue IRT station: The Flushing-bound platform has a mosaic: To Astoria and Corona. Not only is that pre-unification, and durring the dual contracts era (from when the IRT ran direct service to Astoria from Times Sq, Hunterspoint Av, et al), but it's also from before the IRT reached Flushing.
Then there's the "To Jamaica and Rockaways" wall tile sign on one of the IND mezzanines on the Queens line, no doubt installed in anticipation of the Winfield Spur which was never built.
07/25/2000
At the Canal St. (J)(M)(Z) station that was rehabbed recently, about 15 years ago I photographed a sign above the stairs coming down from the street that said "To Chambers St". Obviously areference to the Centre St. subway's terminus, pre Nassau St.subway extension.
Also photographed on the Lexington Ave. subway the white on blue porcelain sign on the street entrance that listed various destinations including "City Hall" that ceased being in 1946.
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that you mention station entrance signs...
The sign at the Manhattan-bound entrance at the western end of the Canarsie line's Lorimer St. station used to say, "To 14th St.-6th Av."
For years, the Philadelphia Market Street subway eastbound had signs saying "Ferries-Frankford Trains", with the word "Ferries" painted over so it wouldn't be too obvious.
I was wondering why nobody has proposed the Untimate trip on the NYC Subway, namely doing the whole system all at once. We could start on a Friday afternoon (in order to get peak period headways) and ride every mile untill we were done. Subtalkers could do the whole thing or just a part. Of course it would take some planing and the actual trip would be months away, but this is one trip I would actually come to NYC for. We could also video tape the whole thing and sell copies as a fund raiser. It could also get some publicity for nycsubway.org
How about chartering a bus from Washington, heading up on Interstate 95 stopping in Balitmore, Philly, South Jersey, Jersey City, New York - Long Island, New Haven, Bradford, Warehouse Point, Boston and finally Seashore. A week of sleeping, eating, riding on the bus to visit everything that has something to do with rapid transit along the Atlantic Coast.
Demolition.
In the older cars, if the T/O did not have indication that all doors were locked, all passengers were forced to get off even if the C/R had it.
In the R-142 is there some redundant system built in so that if 1 bulb/led fails and another one is lit, the train can at least continue its run?
If not why can't they operate the way MNRR does? The conductor monitors his indications and still can have the train proceed.
Enjoy the weekend !!
In the older cars, if the T/O did not have indication that all doors were locked, all passengers were forced to get
off even if the C/R had it.
No, if the failure happens en-route (not at the terminal) then
it is permissible to proceed on buzzer signal as long as the
c/r has indication
so that if 1 bulb/led fails and another one is lit,
Blown indication bulbs are rarely the cause of this failure!
If not why can't they operate the way MNRR does
Commuter railroads do not generally operate at crush loading
[Commuter railroads do not generally operate at crush loading]
You haven't been on the Ronkonkoma Line lately, have you???
I think he means passenger railroad, not cattle (LIRR mentality).
I'll be there 8:30 tomorrow morning. I would have been there last week, but we postponed it. I'll tell everyone about it when I get back Sunday night. If you see a 19 year old guy with bleached hair, that'd be me. :)
New edition of The Third Rail is now online at rapidtransit.net
I spent a lot of time getting the urbanography.com Vitagraph article up, so I wasn't sure how to put together the July Third Rail. So I yielded to many requests to republish some Silver Leaf stuff by reprinting four articles from 1974 and 1975 Third Rails.
Included are articles on SOAC, Light Rail, The 1975 Fare Increase (with fare history) and the closing of the Culver Shuttle.
I'd be really interested in comments, especially as to the relative merits of the different articles (like least?, like most?) and how much you like or dislike this historic stuff.
It's good history, and clearly Sheldon Silver has read it. All the SOBs who won re-election by "saving the fare," and starved the transit system of public funds as well, had happily retired by the time of reckoning. Send that the Straphangers. The MTA budget will send us to the same place after 2004.
That's why I favor a system of fixed responsibilities on the subways, with local government paying for the stations, state government for the ROW (which is the equivalent of a state highway), and riders for the purchase, maintenance and operation of the cars. It would keep everyone in line. We'd have a fare increase now, but you can pay me now or pay me later.
We'd have a fare increase now, but you can pay me now or pay me later.
Two guesses which option everyone prefers. (Not that they are being smart about it.)
I read the Culver Shuttle page, terrific stuff!
Even though I was already 18 when the Shuttle closed, I never rode it, but then again, I didn't really ride all the trackage of the NYC subway system till I started...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I really enjoyed the article on the Culver Shuttle, especially the interior picture of the Standard with the motorman, conductor, & transit cop. As a teen in the late 60's I used to ride the shuttle as often as possible because of my mistaken impression that it and the Franklin (or Franklyn to get Pigs started) Shuttle were the only lines that still had standards. Then one day I got off the Jamaica El at Bway Junction to change for the IND downstairs to Rockaway when I spotted a train of standards sitting in the Canarsie Line station. Well after that I mostly rode on the "LL" instead of the Culver to ride the standards!!
Dumb question Paul:Since there was no internet 25 years ago, what was the Third Rail, a magazine???
Yes, The Third Rail was a magazine.
See the Silver Third Rail page.
07/22/2000
Paul Matus,
I have an original copy of the Third Rail Magazine (D Type), any idea what it's worth?
Bill "Newkirk"
Value of original 1966 Third Rail?
Don't know. This was last offered for sale in 1976. I don't know if I've ever seen one on eBay.
I would say the most "in demand" (though not the rarest, IMO) is "Staten Island Rapid Transit." Two were on Ebay in the last year or so. I think one went for about $52 and the other about $60, so I guess your Third Rail would be less than that.
There was an internet 25 years ago.
It was a bunch of government (ARPANET) and research (NSFNET) computers and all there was was telnet, FTP and e-mail (no HTML).
All connections were via direct connections, no ISPs, but there was nothing as fast as a T1, but what was there that required a T1? Computers weren't even as fast as a T1.
There was an internet 25 years ago.
Just barely. That was its infancy. Have you read Clifford Stoll's The Cuckoo's Egg? It gives an interesting view of the state of things c.10-12 years ago.
Click Here
Do you really believe you are so perfect that you are not liable to make mistakes and be corrected? Or do you believe that you should continue making the same mistakes unabated?
I will not stop my corrections, because the only people who refuse to be corrected are the ones who falsely believe they are perfect.
If you want to post any corrections for me, go ahead, I know you already do that, but only to me of course.
Great work. I loved the article on the closing of the Culver Shuttle. It laid out clearly the determined attempt to drive people off a subway route so it can be demolished without opposition.
I'm getting annoyed! I want to ride one! Where are they? I've been following the schedule, and I can't find one!
You may have a better shot with the R142A which been running good.
I can't imagine how something can run good.
"I can't imagine how something can run good"
if your remark is meant to point out that dave used an adjective instead of an adverb, then i can't imagine how you can be so obnoxious...
I can't believe it's not redbird.
1SF9
My friend, what are you going to do when there's no redbirds left? Perhaps you better get an automobile.....
-Stef
By that time the newer stuff will be old enough to get nostalgic about.
If you haven't checked it out yet, please visit my fairly new website The New York City Subway Club. I'm a transit worker and I've included very helpful links, especially for the transit worker and rail buffs. It also includes a message board and many other great features. So stop on by and post a message on my message board. I'm getting lonely with not much to read! The url is "http"//www.dotplanet.com/groups/default.asp?gid=13714"
Robert;
I tried to visit your website, but was denied access because my browser would not accept a cookie. Why must I accept a cookie to access your website? My parents taught me never to accept cookies from strangers, and that still seems like a good idea.
Tom
Not accepting cookies from strangers is good, but rejecting cookies from some websites (like SubTalk's cookie that saves your preferences) may keep you out. E-mail me privately and I'll be glad to discuss the ins and outs of cookies, and how to control them.
You can safely reject the SubTalk cookie. It will only annoy you by not saving your preferences but it will not keep you out.
-Dave
Where would I have a better chance of catching the R-142A tomorrow? On the 2 or the 6?
The No.6 Line
The R 142 on the No.2 Line bombed out today. The train had a Brake Pipe rupture southbound at President St. at about 4:40PM. It also had a problem at Flatbush on Wednesday around 7:30PM delaying service.
At least the R 142A is making better progress.
GO KAWASAKI
Yeah!!! Kawasaki did a great job on me. Will do a better job n the R142A.
...sure wish I had bought stock in the company that makes Bondo before this happened. I'm sure the MTA will be placing another bulk order to continue patching the Redbirds come Monday :-)
Who does make Bondo? Does the mfr call it Bondo, or is that just a nickname for it around the T/A or in the rail or transit industry?
It's actually the name of one of the products used as sealant/patch for metal, but has acquired a generic term for all similar types of sealant, the same way Band Aids are used to describe adhesive strips and Xerox for copiers.
Damn. Things are that bad with the 142? I finally got the 142A at 125 right on time today (at noon). The T/O had a TSS with him. No problems, the train ran smoothly. I got off at Morrison-Sound View and attempted to get it on the return trip southbound, but I missed it by seconds. I had to settle for a 62A. Overall appearance was acceptable, but it hasn't taken long for litterbugs to leave their coffee cups on the floor (well only one that I spotted). It's great to have NY's finest nab the ignorant. Some old habits are hard to break, unfortunately.
Interestingly enough, the school car came through northbound at 125 before the 142As, and was made up of 239th St R-33s.
Regards,
Stef
You must have just miss me on the 12:36 Pelham.
Dave, I have a great pic of you running the R-142... tomorrow I will email it to you and also send it to Dave P. for the SubTalk archives. You look great at the helm of the new ship!
See, if some of you remember, I said in a past post that the Kawasaki R-142A car was built better and looked better than the Bombardier R-142. The Bombardier set gave so many problems in the test phase up on the Dyre, it was rediculous.
I can see that Bombardier will NOT get the option order, also I'm glad that Kawasaki got the R143 order, as I hope they get the R-150 order too!
Trevor Logan
And what I’d said about Bombardier and their order of R-62A cars and the trouble they had in the beginning. (One wonders what would’ve happened if Bombardier got part of the R-68 order – would they have been as screwed up as the part of the order that went to Westinghouse-Amrail?)
Remember the old days when our subway cars were all made out-of-state (i.e. St. Louis Car Co. in St. Louis, Mo.; American Car & Foundry, now ACF Industries, Berwick, Pa.; Budd Co., Red Lion, Pa.; Pullman-Standard, Chicago, Ill.) – what’s with this making subway cars in this state now? This seems to have been recent (as in, the last 20 or so years). . . .
Budd was in Philly. They did have a Red Lion plant, but it was on the road bearing that name, just outside of Philly. The borough of Red Lion is over 100 miles west of Philly.
Peace,
Big D
The R68 was built by Westinghouse Amrail. The plant the R68's part were made in France. They were built in Brooklyn. The plant that made the R68 parts was purchased by Bombardier not so long ago.
or which division is the R-150 ? Will the other division get R-149, R-151 or something else?
It's not fully decided yet, nor has the car specs been drawn up fully!
As of right now it's just talk among the TA!
Trevor Logan
Don't be so sure about Bombardier not getting the R-150 or some future order. Remember, the reason why they built the plant in upstate New York was to curry favor with the politicians, who could then tell people in the northeastern part of the state they helped create local jobs by pushing for the subway cars to be made in the New York, instead of outside the state or outside the country.
If Bombardier is cut off because of the current screw-ups, they can come back and shut their plant down. If they were to do it, say, during the 2002 election year, this would be bad news for Pataki and the Republicans (though the situation would be the exact same if a Democrat was in the governor's office). So even if their trains blow brake lines or react inppropriately to signal coming from nearby Metrocard turstiles from now until Christmas 2001, the company will likely still be thrown some sort of contract the next time around, so long as the pols think it can help get them re-elected.
Okay so there's four IND tracks being funneled through two in the Fulton Tunnels. Therefore there is more capacity on the A/C in Brooklyn if we could find a way to bypass the Fultons. How? How about a new tunnel from the Court St. station in Brooklyn, connecting to the World Trade Center Terminal (E) in Manhattan. From WTC it would run south in Church/whatever and then turn east on either Maiden Lane or Wall St. then run diagonally under the river crossing underneath some other tunnels before hitting Court (a station or two on Maiden or Wall would be nice too). Then.... sure you could run a few more C trains but what else? Why not rebuild the Franklin to take 8 car trains, double track, rebuild the north end to be a subway and connect with the IND Fulton, then run trains like this.
E: Coney-Jamaica. 24/7. Express in Queens, Local in Man. and Bkln, via new tubes and Franklin to Brighton line.
Q: Brighton Beach-Queensbridge. All times except nights. Via Brighton Express, so. side Manny B, and BMT Broadway Express. Express in Brooklyn, Manhattan.
D: Coney-205. 24/7. Local in Brooklyn, Express in Man. and Bronx (Peak direction only).
thus we get more Brighton service, direct CI-Franklin service without forcing BrightonLocal riders to transfer. In addition we also get the option for rerouting MannBridg trains - with a DeKalb-Rutgers-Fulton Connection, in the event of MB collapase, A and C routed via new tunnels and all MB routed via Rutgers/Fulton.
Also don't rule out the possibility of the Manny B tunnels - they put tunnels in to replace the Queensboro Bridge, why not the MB?
The problem with doing anything at all at WTC is there is almost no way to extend the E tracks south from their terminal. They're blocked on the east side by the N/R Broadway tracks, which do their little S curve down Vescey Street from Broadway to Church and run on just about the same level as the E. And the tracks can't dip below the N/R tracks because the A/C tracks are already there going beneath to head down Fulton Street.
You might be able to extend the tracks from unused lower level of the N/R City Hall Station by making a turn east down Ann Street (it's got to turn because the 4/5 tracks then take over lower Broadway) and then hooking them up with the A/C Cranberry Street tunnel east of the Broadway Nassau Street station where Ann and Fulton streets merge, though I'm not sure that a Broadway express/Fulton St (Bklyn) local would help the current situation any.
The Manny B tunnel replacement along with a Rutgers tunnel/DeKalb connection would be the best answer. Extend the tunnel for the N/Q trains east along Canal past the Manny B, build a flying junction to merge with the D train coming from Grand Street, and then turn the tunnel south at Allen Street to the East River and run it alongside the bridge, the way the 60th Street tunnel runs alongside the Queensboro. Then hook one of the bridge track approaches up to the tunnel and use the other bridge approach from DeKalb to connect the B train to the Rutgers tunnel to share track with the F.
A much better idea would be to demolish the present WTC terminal platform and branch the local tracks down a ramp much farther up the line, south of Canal St. Then, a new station could be built at the present's location, but much deeper, with the ability to go under the WTC and the NR line.
A 3-D diagram of the WTC complex would be nice at this point, but I'm sure any new tunnel for the Eighth Ave. local would have to dive down farily deeply to be able to get under the A/C line as well, which is about three levels beneath the surface at that point.
The next problem would be, once you get it under that, what street does it use to continue south? Church is taken up by the N/R, Broadway by the 4/5, Nassau by the J/M, Williams by the 2/3 and Greenwich by the 1/9. Unless you want to go all the way over to Pearl or Water streets, that leaves Washington Street as the only route towards the Battery, and that would require an S curve to the southwest off the Church/Chambers St. station to reach, with the additional obsticle of the PATH tracks (four levels down) and the waiting room plaza (three levels) in the way.
Outside of a Second Ave. line down Water Street, there's just not much room for any new lines in Lower Manhattan (or downtown Brooklyn, for that matter).
Liberty St. is available. A round-about route, but it could work.
no just use Church and run under the N/R. My idea was to use Church south then turn east on Wall, the curve would be under the cemetery so there'd be no building foundations to interfere with, then stop under Wall, then run east...but to cross all those tunnels while crossing the river (required to hook up with Court/Schemerhorn) you;'d have to be deep anyway. I like ChrisR16's idea of killing WTC and then rebuilding it at a lower level. Then use Church underneath the N/R.
Drilling out a tunnel beneath the N/R would be more expensive than finding a `virgin street' to tunnel under, and with the current state of the Manny B, the MTA wouldn't dare disrupt the Montague tunnel unless the bridge was back to full four-track capacity and assured of being at full capacity for an extended period of time.
The MTA has higher priorities to do what you guys suggested. If they ever run the 8th Ave to the Brighton, the Logical thing to do is use the interchange just South of West 4th, from 8th Ave to the Houston Line, then over the Manny B, maybe once the Manny Bridge is ever finished, or run the Q as a local on Bdwy thru the Tunnel, and N over the bridge. The E can go to CI or the C. No new building at all
Disregard my previous post about the F line (Duh - that's not the Brighton! Hel-LO!!). Sorry about that.
It could still work, but you'd need to go through two quick track changes between West Fourth Street and Broadway-Lafayette, switching from the Eighth Ave. local (C/E) track to the Sixth Ave. local (F) track to the Sixth Ave. express track (B/D).
Possible, but definitely about No. 10,000 on the list of route changes the MTA is likely to implement.
Yes, it COULD be done, but probably won't be for the very reason you mentioned. Any switching maneuver slows things down. IMHO, there are too many converging/diverging points on the IND.
Maybe they could run the E to Coney Island via Culver and the F to WTC switch over So of West 4th, They did that prior to 1954(switch over) Then the 8th Ave could get CI Service,
They did do that; however, if my 1948 Hagstrom's IND map is correct, the E ran only as far as Broadway-Lafayette. BTW, Shoreline's 1689 has "E/8th Ave.-Houston" and "E/8th Ave.-Houston Express (Ha!) route signs, something that none of my IND route curtains have.
But come to think og it. You have 2 CI trains on the 8th Ave from 145th to 59th, then a simple transfer at West 4th, and then a final X platform at Jay St. I doubt that the MTA will ever consider a 8th Ave-CI Train
The one thing that would throw a real monkey wrench into such a pattern is the switching south of W. 4th St. They try to avoid using those switches as much as possible except for emergency reroutes.
I don't think there is a express/local switch on the downtown 6th Ave. between
W. 4 and Bway/Lafayette
You could also have an 8th Ave. local train of your choice switch over to the 6th Ave.-Houston local track south of W. 4th St., then continue on the F line all the way to Coney Island. Or the same train could continue on the 8th Ave. line to Brooklyn, then switch to the F line before Jay St.
What I'm getting at is that this could be done right now using existing track connections. Line capacity and equipment availabilty are another story. Not to mention tying things up with switching maneuvers.
Check out my new bulletin board called Transit Talk, where you can discuss anything and everything about the New York City Transit System or any other related issue.
Are you paying your royalties to Trevor Logan?
Are you Robert DiStefano the TSS???
Hi Train Dude, Yes this is he! I'm now in cyberspace, check out my new website The New York City Subway Club. Once you get to the site you need to register since it's a portal like yahoo, but once you get in, just make the page a favorite, then you can access it with one click.
What's wrong with this one?
There is nothing wrong with this one, as a matter of fact, this is an excellent forum for rail buffs. Transit Talk was created to give Transit Workers an alternative site to express their feelings, in other words to sound off concerning transit related matters, especially how it relates to their jobs. For example, recently the supervisors voted to ratify their contract. Transit Talk would allow them to express their views concerning the negotiations. Although Transit Talk is open to all, the emphasis is for the Transit Worker. In any event, feel free to post anything that concerns Transit and Transit related matters on the Transit Talk site.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize Transit Talk was geared toward the transit worker.
Picked up '85 edition of Train Operator Tutor for fifty cents at a library sale. Without any specific knowledge of NYCTA, scored -- on test one. Does Arco make mistakes? I have to argue with #98. A 6-track layup yard can hold 12 cars on each track but there are already four 10-car trains in this yard. The number of additional cars that can be stored in this yard is: A. 12; B. 32; C. 40; D. 72 They said A is correct. And by the way, what is a passing percent?
David Harrison, Y'al come on to Chi Town, I'll guide too.
Okay so there's four IND tracks being funneled through two in the Fulton Tunnels. Therefore there is more capacity on the A/C in Brooklyn if we could find a way to bypass the Fultons. How? How about a new tunnel from the Court St. station in Brooklyn, connecting to the World Trade Center Terminal (E) in Manhattan. From WTC it would run south in Church/whatever and then turn east on either Maiden Lane or Wall St. then run diagonally under the river crossing underneath some other tunnels before hitting Court (a station or two on Maiden or Wall would be nice too). Then.... sure you could run a few more C trains but what else? Why not rebuild the Franklin to take 8 car trains, double track, rebuild the north end to be a subway and connect with the IND Fulton, then run trains like this.
E: Coney-Jamaica. 24/7. Express in Queens, Local in Man. and Bkln, via new tubes and Franklin to Brighton line.
Q: Brighton Beach-Queensbridge. All times except nights. Via Brighton Express, so. side Manny B, and BMT Broadway Express. Express in Brooklyn, Manhattan.
D: Coney-205. 24/7. Local in Brooklyn, Express in Man. and Bronx (Peak direction only).
thus we get more Brighton service, direct CI-Franklin service without forcing BrightonLocal riders to transfer. In addition we also get the option for rerouting MannBridg trains - with a DeKalb-Rutgers-Fulton Connection, in the event of MB collapase, A and C routed via new tunnels and all MB routed via Rutgers/Fulton.
Also don't rule out the possibility of the Manny B tunnels - they put tunnels in to replace the Queensboro Bridge, why not the MB?
I am all for connecting the Franklin shuttle to the Fulton St. line, eliminating the elevated Franklin Av. station and making the connection by lowering the ROW after Park Place into a subway. The Brighton-Franklin would then continue non-stop to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. But there the Fulton line has only 2 tracks and would have to be expanded to 4 to meet the extra needed capacity. So construction would have to take place at two points. The Brighton-Franklin would then run via the existing, underused Rutgers St. connection, no extra tunnel to Manhattan would have to be built. I prefer this to the proposed Rutgers tunnel--Dekalb connection because it would increase capacity on the Brighton line, increase capacity through Dekalb, connect the Franklin line with Manhattan, and provide an emergency alternate to Manhattan.
That eliminates half the point which was direct service from Brighton to Lower Manhattan. You would still end up serving Midtown only, and the trains would be markedly slower than the D. So WHY? There are outer tracks at Hoyt/Schem that are not in use (as well as outer platforms) and a new tunnel from Court to WTC would rule.
This was one of the ideas the East River Crossings study proposed: a LOCAL track connection between A1&2 (the outer tracks)in Hoyt, and B1&2 (the F tracks) in Jay would be built along with a Fulton-Brighton connection. But both were ruled out as too disruptive to the surface, and of course, too costly.
Nobody built anything to replace the Queensborough Bridge, it wasn't replaced.
Also don't rule out the possibility of the Manny B tunnels - they put tunnels in to replace the Queensboro Bridge, why not the MB?
Nobody built anything to replace the Queensborough Bridge, it wasn't replaced.
I think he's looking at the 60th Street BMT/IND connecting tunnel as a replacement for the former El service over the bridge.
The BMT originally wanted to run the Broadway line over the Queensboro bridge. The 60th Sttube was built when they were denied this. I wonder why the city said no to the BMT, but allowed the IRT to build the Second Ave extension over it to Queens ...
I think the problem was that it was determined that the bridge would not be able to handle the load of both the IRT el cars and the heavier BRT subway cars. El cars were wooden and therefore much lighter so they got to stay on the bridge.
It's ironic that the Queensboro's cantilever design is much more suitable for rail service than the Williamsburgh and Manhattan bridges suspension design.
Why is cantilever more suitable than suspension?
The structure isn't supported by steel ropes which can twist and bend when trains roll over them.
The thing is, the Willy B only carries two tracks but the Manny carries FOUR (or should). I think replacing the Willy B subway tracks with a tunnel would be great, you could make it 4 tracks as far as the Chrystie Connection. Long-term it would probably be like this: Four Tracks across where the Willy B is. Two hit the Chrystie, two go into the inner tracks on Nassau. The inner tracks on Nassau are extended through Broad to terminate at Chambers (new trackage built, tails eliminated). The 2nd Ave. Subway meanwhile comes down and turns west to use the outer Nassau tracks and run through service to the second Montague tunnels (the originals still being used by the R).
I think the simple explanation was in the types of cars operated by the IRT & BRT. The BRT cars, as a rule, were significanyly heavier than their IRT counterparts.
There was such a Court St.-WTC (Chambers St. in those days) tunnel on the drawing boards as part of the Second System. We all know what happened there.
I added this post to the other thread late in the game. I though the idea should be given more exposure.
Some time ago, I used to think of the idea of just making both Montague tubes the same direction, but there was absolutely nowhere to lay up trains in either direction. But now it just dawned on me: the new B division yard in Sunnyside they are planning. Trains from Brooklyn can just go into the layup yard and not have to return.
The N and R from Queens would go to Canal, and perhaps open up the lower lever of City Hall, to avoid delays from emptying the trains at Canal, and some trains would go to Whitehall and turn on B1 and B3 (west and middle, and return to Queens) (switch required to connect B1 and B2 north of station). N, R and possibly the Q from Brooklyn would run on B2, northbound. M and two new lines replacing B and D would wrong rail on B1, and switch to Nassau St. A switch would be needed between the junction with the layup tracks and the Broad St. station. Brooklyn trains would continue north on R2, and J/Z would turn on R1 at Broad St, using the existing switch to the north of the station. M from Queens would terminate at Chambers.
If this is really long term, it would be a good time to connect the Nassau line with Grand St. as people suggest. Southbound B & D would probably also have to terminate at Chambers, possibly bumping the M back to Canal. (or up 6th Av. as was suggested by a couple of people.)
Shuttles would run on each of the three Southern Div. lines to provide southbound service. They would terminate on the bridge approach tracks. (double crossovers required between H1&2 and A3&4) (perhaps even reopen Myrtle as a n.bound dropoff station) Switches would need to be built between F4 and F3, and F3 and B1 between Pacific and DeKalb for the northbound trains to access B1 without interfering with shuttles returning on F1. The Brighton (A4/B2) would be harder to connect to B1 before the tunnel. You could wrong rail on A3 between Prospect and DeKalb, but then you would have to direct southbound passengers to the 2345 or C to the Franklin line (which would be upgraded) as Atlantic and 7th Ave. stations would also lose southbound service.
This way, you have all the current levels of Manhattan bound capacity (2 Manhattan bound tracks; all 6 services-- three on each track), and without disrupting Queens service to Manhattan too much. (Only Manhattan to Brooklyn on those lines would be affected. Perhaps some sort of bus service could pick up some of them.)
no way! just make two NEW montagues paralell - hook the new ones into nassau and the old ones into broadway - then connect the nassau outer tracks to the willy b and the inners to the 2nd ave and VOILA!
And pay for it how?
who cares? nothing here has a possibility of happening ANYWAY. Besides if the 2nd Av was hooked into the Montagues (which it will be since they are underused), it would just be part of the 2nd Av project which would everyone would be so excited about.
Yeah, that't the whole point. An alternative that involves as little construction as possible. If they build two new Montague tubes, then they might as well build a replacement tunnel connecting directly to Grand and Canal. If they were never willing to spend the money for that, and they can't get 2nd Avenue off the ground, and it was so hard just for them to build and complete 63rd St, then it doesn't make any sense to suggest new tunnels to them. You have to use what we already have.
Different female voice.
R-142 Female voice announces transfers at Chambers, 72nd, and 96st only when the 9 is running (male voice other times). Female voice also announces transfer at Franklin for the 4 (and 5 during rush), while the male voice announces the shuttle. Nevins is also a female transfer announcement point. I think 135th and maybe 180th are also female voice transfers, but I only passed those stops twice so I can't recall.
R-142a Male voice announces all transfers.
R-142 Strip map has filled in circles and dim direction arrow, while 142a has clear circles and bright direction arrow.
R-142 Has no door access panels adjacent to the doors (blank space - no ad), 142a has them in the normal locations (ads and all).
R-142 has speakers on the ceiling, and slightly squarish area between A/C vents and light track. R-142a has speakers in curved area between A/C vents and light track (curved area could be used for additional ad space in the future).
R-142 has nothing on the inside side of the exterior digital sign. R-142a has the artwork.
R-142a has one 1" corrugation below the windows, the R-142 has a .01" black line.
R-142s dull, R-142a shiny.
Storm doors have the little locking things on the inside (142) instead of the outside (142a), and have the keyhole on the handle area (142) instead of near the ceiling (142a).
Windows adjacent to storm doors have thicker frame on the 142, almost no frame on the 142a.
Digital signs blink out after every line of text on the 142 (interior and exterior) - annoying as hell. Digital signs stay steady on the 142a.
Cab door slightly recessed on 142, flush with walls on 142a.
Different sounding motors. R-142a is like the Market Franford Line (Philly), 142 has 3 different pitches, going directly from one to the next (no transition). Can only hear the motors in very quiet station or while between cars on the 142, can always hear them on 142a.
Area above doorways different.
The builders plate.
You missed one:
R142A has art below the route maps. R142 has no art.
more major differences. interior design is different for distinction, it is also built more flawlessly on the bombardier (if you look closely there is no damage to panels and scratches that i have noticed in the kawasaki) and major one is truck configuration and ride
(bombardier excelled in that part)
Actually, I did:
R-142 has nothing on the inside side of the exterior digital sign. R-142a has the artwork.
12th line.
Denver's LRVs began using announcements with a female voice on northbound runs when the Southwest Corridor opened. Leaving Mineral Ave., an announcement is made as to whether the train is operating to 30th Ave. or 18th Street, and a reminder is heard when approaching 18th Street. If the train is looping around, passengers are advised to get off at 18th and change to a 30th Ave.-bound train if they're headed that way. Southbound trains still use announcements with a male voice. On trains looping around downtown, the male announcements begin at 18th and Stout. An announcement is also made at the beginning of the run as to whether the train is operating to I-25/Broadway or Mineral. This pertains only to trains operating to 18th St.; all trains from 30th Ave. run all the way to Mineral Ave.
There was a published article in the Rocky Mountain News the other day that ridership on the new extension has exceeded expectations so far. Last Thursday, the passenger count on the Southwest Corridor was over 11,000, and total ridership that day exceeded 28,000. RTD had predicted 8400 daily riders on the new line and 22,000 overall, and acknowledged that their predictions were on the conservative side. Parking has not been a major issue; however, people are still complaining. The Mineral Ave. Park'n'Ride is being expanded by 425 spaces which will be ready next month.
the denver light rail system is walking distance from the greyhound terminal downtown denver ..
in salt lake city utah the light rail system ruins right by the greyhound terminal..
That is correct. The bus station is at 19th and Curtis Streets while the nearest light rail stop is at 18th and Stout, two blocks down 19th to Stout and one block over to 18th. If you're headed to 30th Ave., you'd go one block further down 19th to California, then one block over to the 18th & California station. The 20th & Welton stop isn't all that far away, either.
The blocks are fairly short in downtown Denver, about the same as Manhattan's numbered streets.
The LIRR has a freight only yard near Stewart avenue in Garden City, which is not empty. I was walking back from LI Bus (to complain about the poor service) to Roosevelt Field, and passed by this rail yard. I saw what appeared to be several track laying machines and construction
engines, all painted yellow.
Perhaps these are where the track laying machines are stored for the Main line work (in Queens)?
Go to that yard when the Ringling Bros Barnum & Bailey Circus is at the Coliseum and you can see the Circus Train parked there.
There's a piece in today's Daily News op-ed page proposing the replacement of the Gowanus elevated expressway with a tunnel highway, to improve traffic and enhance development along the lower Brooklyn waterfront.
WHILE YOU'RE DIGGING TUNNELS IN BROOKLYN...
Why not make the highway tunnel large enough to include subway tracks, and continue it (subway only) northeast under 3 ave. from Hamilton? Turn it north under or near Flatbush, with connections to the existing BMT lines, and then under the river to Manhattan? Kill two birds with one stone by replacing both the Gowanus and the Manny B, all in one project.
Whattaya think, fellow railfans?
My GOD, man! That sounds like THE BIG DIG: PART II!!
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, except the north/south station link was left out of the big dig!
Gowanus Expressway Tunnel advocates call it a $4 Billion project and compare it to the proposed Tappan Zee Tunnel, also described as a $4B project. Aside from the numerous engineering issues involved, where is the $4B or $8B going to come from? The Tappan Zee tunnel has more going for it in that we know how to tunnel under rivers and can probably pre-fab the sections and sink them in the Hudson.
If the people in Sunset Park think the elevated Gowanus re-construction will be disruptive, they are right. But the type tunnel construction being talked about has never been done in NYC. Just working around the infrastructure of gas, sewers and electrical will be a nightmare. Others have suggested rebuilding the Gowanus over 1st or 2nd Avenues (which is where it should have been built in the first place) but then you have to condemn private property which means lawsuits. The least disruptive proposal is to rebuild the Gowanus. I'm sure that the NYS DOT can find creative ways of minimizing the impact on the surrounding areas.
the gowanus should be DOUBLE-DECKED with an unused track area for trains....at a later point, that area could use trains like BARTS (faster than a subway) that could either tunnel under the narrows or use a new lower deck on the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. Then rebuild the SIR and have three trains like the original BART system, one using the same route as the SIR now, one from the bus/ferry terminal to downtown via the new bridge/tunnel, and one from the south end of the isle to downtown via the new bridge/tunnel. Where would the new subway go? Perhaps use the Broadway Express tracks, but more likely run under the river in a new tunnel NORTH of fulton and then build a new subway under 5th Ave. and terminate it at Central Park South.
They say $4 billion, I say $10 billion. I can think of a long list of other things to do in Brooklyn for the price of the Gowanus Tunnel.
I can understand if the train on 4th Avenue was an el, and this would be a replacement, but it's not, so it's a waste of money.
If you continue along Third Avenue, you might as well not build that Hamilton section and remove a part of the BQE.
But see how easy it is to tunnel under a major part of downtown Brooklyn where the streets are narrower than any highway.
that's true, even as an elevated highway the gowanus is only four lanes - because the streets aren't wide enough for 6.
The Gowanus has no less than 6 lanes and peaks at NINE lanes.
Who told you about 4 lanes?
The reasonThe New York City Subway Club gives you a cookie is because it is a web portal like yahoo which will give you a customized home page, free email, voice chat and many other services. Without cookies they will not know who you are! In order to take advantage of the services of any portal you need to accept cookies. This portal promises that there will be no spam or any solicitations whatsoever. So give it a try! You have nothing to lose!
"So give it a try! You have nothing to lose!"
if i join the group, you may lose your patience...
>>> The reason The New York City Subway Club gives you a cookie is because it is a web portal like yahoo which will give you a customized home page, free email, voice chat and many other services. Without cookies they will not know who you are! In order to take advantage of the services of any portal you need to accept cookies <<<
Robert;
What you say about the reason for cookies is valid, but Yahoo, Alta Vista and other portals do not require that you accept a cookie to access their web sites. Since I am not interested in a customized home page, free e-mail, or other services, I have to believe when access is denied without accepting a cookie, that the web site wants to set the cookie for its purpose, such as profiling its users, not for my benefit.
Tom
The 142 announced every single stop it passed today (well... yesterday)! It's a glitch because it even announced the stops at Park Place and North of Gun Hill Road, even though they were blanked out of the strip map! As the train passed, the light would start blinking, then go out again. It even did this with stops not on the strip map! Example, at Chambers st. Northbound
Voice: This is a Bronx bound 2 express train. The next stop is, Franklin St.
Sign: (2) to Wakefield-241 | 14st Next
And I rode from 9:15 AM to 1:PM, it did this the whole time! The best part was when we blew by 59th st, and the male voice announced all the transfers (but not the 1). It does, however, announce the 1 at express stops. It only announces the 3 at 135st (not Franklin).
Typical occurrence while passing a station:
Sign: (2) to Wakefield-241 | 34th st-Penn Next
{enter station}
Voice: This is 23rd st
Sign: This is | 23rd st
{Upon exiting station}
Sign: (2) To Wakefield-241 | 34th st-Penn Next
All this speeding by announced stations led to the system to slowly move out of phase with reality. It kept announcing the 'This is' announcement further and further into the station. The in-station announcement was not made after the distance between 'This is' and stopping point was less than approx. 100 feet (Nevins st). At Franklin, it announced the 'This is Franklin Avenue' about 2 feet before we stopped (the transfers were being announced while the doors were open. After Grand Army Plaza the 'This is' announcements were made upon leaving the station. Upon enetering Flatbush, we all heard "This is Newkirk ave."
Hi Folks,I have heard the R142s are now in service on the # 2 line. Is this true? By the way, I rode the R142A this week and last week this baby is fast!!!!!!! I hope they DONT slow these babies down.
Cooler Subways is the headline over an editorial in today’s Times that praises MTA for the cooling system in Grand Central and the fans in Union Square.
i came across a new book in the library by father andrew m. greeley that involves the disappearance of a chicago el car and a newly appointed bishop... it is titled "the bishop and the missing l train"... i thought it might be of interest to railfans, but it probably would be more interesting to chicagoites...
there is more description of some of the areas around the el, than in the actual operation of the equipment, so it might be a disappointment to the railfan... actually the train is just a minor plot element... the focus of the book is the behind the scenes efforts to solve the disappearance , led by the archbishop and his trusty sleuth blackie ryan, a rather laid back bishop... the story describes some behind the scenes politics in the chicago diocese... also central to the story are two couples, who at times seem destined to find eternal happiness together... personally, the meeting and romance of the star crossed lovers had a touching and appealing quality... on the bottom of the front cover is a cta train... this was the first book of father greeley that i have read... it was an easy read, and as i said often touching...
the august heypaul book of the month discussion will have excerpts from my forthcoming book " my year as an undercover railfan on subtalk"
Heypaul: How about "The Case of the Missing Brighton." A Sherlock Holmes story written by Leigh Matus,brother of Paul. It details the disappearance of an entire train of D-Types.
Larry,RedbirdR33
i don't if many of you are familiar with the radio show "this american life" which is carried on national public radio... last week they repeated a show that had a 10 or 15 minute section called "bus man's holiday"... it was about dishwasher pete's experience going from town to town on greyhound...
who the hell is interested in greyhound on subtalk?
a valid question... but the theme of the show is very intriguing... pete had always found greyhound to be a rather attractive way to travel, until national public radio gave him recording equipment and an ameripass to chronicle the greyhound experience... attempting to do that radically changed his experience of greyhound... it's that part of the show that is interesting... there is a special magic that befalls many of us when we are left alone to ourselves when we ride subway cars, trolleys, planes, trains, or even buses... i am curious to see if anyone can relate to his experience?...
www.thislife.org/ra/102.ram
One of my favorite activities is to ride a train late at night... It seems to give me a chance to clear my mind and get in touch with my thoughts in a way that I'm not normally able to do while riding the train during the day. (Can't really do it here in Boston, since the subways shut down at 12:30 AM.)
I even wrote about one such experience on the Chicago L, and posted it on my website. It's called Procession, and can be found at http://www.NthWard.com/procession.htm.
I've also had similar experiences while riding the various subways in NYC, especially the ones I'm exploring for the first time. I remember the Culver line (as well as walking around lower Manhattan late at night) being fertile ground for some in-depth contemplation... Hopefully I'll be able to make it back there soon. And maybe I'll even write about it.
-- David
Boston, MA
Yeah, I love This American Life and it was interesting to hear had Pete, a frequent traveler, became the "outsider" on the bus.
Management oversight by heypaul who was heard to remark....
What triggered the events on that infamous night. Has anybody been held responsible?
Why dredge up 9-year-old unpleasantness? Please, everyone, don't get into this.
David
Marty;
What does this have to do with subways or transportation?
Tom
There isn't an adequate message board for New York discussions.
I suggest you go to http://www.yahoo.com and type "Crown Heights Riot" in the search field. You'll find online articles with the info you need.
I observed the Bombardier R-142s on the 2 line runnning express in each direction today. Going towards 241 St it ran express, and the return trip to Flatbush, it also ran express, on two roundtrips. What gives? Is it behind schedule?
-Stef
I was just reviewing some old files and came accross this tibit that might be interesting. As built the R-12's and R-14's were identical. Outside they were painted two tone gray with an orange stipe at the waist. Inside the R-12's had a yellow and blue florr while the R-14's had had a red one.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always went by the unit numbers: if it was 5700 it was R-12; if 5800 or low 5900 it was R-14. I believe the first few 5800s were R-12s.
wayne
Right, the R12's were 5703-5802, and the R14's were 5803-5952.
Mainly because the IRT l938 World's fair car numbers were 5653-5702, so the R12 picked up right behind them. The last IRT standard car (Steinway) was 5652.
the windows.. the windows..
some have 3 some have 2..
add r-10's to the
"how do you tell r-12 from an r-14"
and that's a 1,000,000.00 question
[the windows.. the windows..
some have 3 some have 2..
add r-10's to the
"how do you tell r-12 from an r-14"
and that's a 1,000,000.00 question]
???????
The R-10's are not problem since it's a longer and wider IND/BMT car. Like the other SubTalkers I could only tell the R-12 and R-14 apart by their fleet numbers.
Wayne
The most obvious givaway that you're on an R10 and not an R12/14 is the foward facing window seats, unlike the IRT's bench seating.
I'd love for IRT cars to have this seating arrangement. I don't believe any IRT subway car had these other than the R110A, which will be getting them removed soon.
I'd love for IRT cars to have this seating arrangement. I don't believe any IRT subway car had these other than
the R110A, which will be getting them removed soon.
Most of the Manhattan el cars (these count as IRT, of sorts) had
some transverse seats in the middle of the car (the so-called
"Manhattan" seating plan). I believe the early Composites, Gibbs
and Deckroof cars did as well before the center door was added.
You are correct on the early subway cars and Manhattan seating (removed when center doors were installed.
The R-10s also had pneumatic door engines (the last cars to have this feature) while the R-12s and R-14s had electric doors.
And this above all else: the R-10s for the most part ran in solid trains throughout their careers, trigger boxes notwithstanding.
I believe the R15 was the first car with electric doors. Didnt the R12/14 have the same door mechanisms that the R10 had?
The R10 was the last fleet of cars with air doors. Beyond the R10 all were electric doors. [This is even though the R12/14 had the same trigger controls as the R1-9 and R10.]
The R-15s were the first cars to have door controls in the cabs.
For the longest time, I was under the impression that the R-12s and R-14s had their door controls modified so they could m. u. with later cars; however, as it turns out, all SMEE cars except the R-11s could m. u. together. Taking it a step further, I was also under the impression that the R-10s could not m. u. with other cars because of their pneumatic door engines. Wrong again!! Train Dude explained it to me more than a year ago and thankfully set me straight.
There were several (very) subtle differences between R-12s and R-14s. One was that the pattern on the diamond plate on the threshholds between cars was different.
The R16s were the last cars to be delivered with National Pneumatic air operated door engines. However the corner door operators were air operated while the center panels had electric panels. 6398 shows evidence of this with pipe plugs along air line piping and a second hole under the corner seats, indicating a possible conduit or pipe previously in place. The corner seats are way too small to install a typical vapor operator of today's technology and likely used the corner operators from the R1-10 cars.
In that case, did the R-16s emit the "tdddk-ksssss" sound when the doors opened the way the R-10s did? I only rode on those cars twice, once before and once after they got those new door engines and don't remember hearing any air sounds.
So then the only difference between the two was cosmetic, specifically the floor.
Steve: Thats true, basucally the R-14's had a plainer interior.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As many of you know 1949 was the last year of joint operation of the Astoria and Flushing Lines. On July 24,1949 IRT subway through service to Astoria ended.(IRT El service to Astoria ended on June 13,1942). The IRT began operating BMT BU El cars as a shuttle between Ditmars Blvd and the north tracks of the IRT half of Queensboro Plaza.
This was in addition to the BMT operated shuttle
also of BU Gate Cars between Ditmars Blvd and the BMT platforms at Queensboro Plaza. This operation continued until October 16 when the BMT operated el shuttle was discontinued. On October 16 the BMT ran a shuttle train of Standards between Ditmars Blvd and Queensbor Plaza, on October 17 this shuttle ran into the north tracks of the IRT half of the station and the IRT shuttle of BMT el cars was discontinued. The tracks on the IRT north half of the station are the ones presently used by the Astoria Line N trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> On July 24,1949 IRT subway through service to Astoria ended.
Larry;
You have gotten me confused again. I remember waiting for Flushing trains at 42nd Street, having to be sure I was not getting one going to Astoria prior to 1949. But all the cars were IRT width, even those going to Astoria. I also remember catching BMT Standards to go to Coney Island on the North side of the South platform of Queensborough Plaza. It's a long time back so my memory is hazy, but I remember the upper platforms were outbound (away from Manhattan) and the lower platforms were inbound. The platforms on the South side of the South half of Queensborough Plaza were sized for IRT cars and North Side was sized for BMT cars. I cannot remember which size the North half of the station was, or what trains used those platforms. Can you refresh my memory?
Tom
I believe the old arrangement had the BMT steel subway cars terminating on the northern lower platform, and the narrower gate/Q cars operating as shuttles to Astoria and Flushing operating from the upper level. I believe that all BMT service east of Queensboro Plaza was shuttle service. Must've been an inconvienet ride if you chose a BMT train over an IRT train if you rode the Flushing or Astoria lines pre 1949. At least the IRT had thru service directly into Manhattan.
Anyone know how they collected the fares for this joint service pre 1940? If you wanted to ride the BMT into Manhattan, could you get on an IRT train at Ditmars and transfer to the BMT, or did you have to ride the BMT shuttle to do this ...
I always have assumed that the fares collected on the Flushing/Astoria lines were pooled between the two companies, as the only other way would be to have separate entrances and turnstiles and then different stopping areas on the platforms for each companies trains- a VERY complicated arrangement,which,from the looks of the old pictires, didn't exist. The 'joint' service on these lines is one of the quirks of the Dual System I really don't understand, ESPECIALLY since the lines were built to IRT specs only. What would have a better [although more expensive] solution, would have been to have the BMT stay 'in tunnel' and use a route similar to the today's IND line as far as say, Jackson Heights, or at least to the LIRR at Woodside...Or if you really neede to build an el, at least build one that the BMT steel fleet could have used somehow [maybe use some kind of gantlet track like was used at Manhattan Transfer???]
The original trackage rights agreement signed between the New York Municipal Railway (BRT subsidiary) and the IRT stated that each company would make its own arrangement regarding fare collection. For this reason two token booths were installed in each station. The original intention was to divide the platforms in half. The IRT began operating its services first and the lines became so busy that they needed seven car trains. By the time the BMT excersized its trackage rights and started operating in 1923 dividng the platforms was no longer practical.
At first the companies divided the income according to car miles operated by each company. The IRT complained that this was unfair and re-negotiated. The final arrangement called for a division according to the ratio of passengers carried by each company. How they calculated that I really don't know. Probably kept an auditor very busy.
As for Queensboro Plaza itself there were separate platforms and therefore I believe separate fare controls.
BMT-Lines.com
>>> I believe the old arrangement had the BMT steel subway cars terminating on the northern lower platform, and the narrower gate/Q cars operating as shuttles to Astoria and Flushing operating from the upper level. <<<
Queensboro Plaza is a unique station in the NYC subway system. It is the only station where BMT size and IRT size cars share a platform. The station consists of four tracks and two island platforms in a double deck arrangements. The track assignments today are pretty simple. Division A (IRT) trains come through the Steinway tunnel, use the south side of the upper level station and go to Flushing. Division B (BMT) trains come through the 60th Street tunnel, use the North side of the upper level station and go to Astoria. On the return trips the trains use the same sides on the lower level of the station.
Prior to 1949, things were more complicated. IRT trains came through the Steinway tunnel and went to both Astoria and Flushing. BMT standards came through the 60th Street tunnel to Queensboro Plaza, but could go no further because all the station platforms beyond Queensboro Plaza were made for the narrower IRT cars. The BMT ran IRT sized cars (Q type) to Astoria and Flushing from Queensboro Plaza. At that time the station had an additional four tracks and two more platforms in the double deck arrangement north of the present tracks and platforms for a total of eight tracks and four platforms.
I do not think one station was exclusively IRT and the other BMT. I am certain that the IRT trains to Flushing and back used the southern most upper and lower tracks, but what were the track assignments for the IRT to Astoria, the BMT Standards from the 60th Street tunnel, and the BMT Q type cars that ran between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria and Flushing? Does anyone know with certainty?
Tom
Going north to south, the track assignments (same on both
levels were): stub terminal from 60 ST tubes for BMT steel cars
(later a relay track was added that snaked under the Corona branch
and wound up as a fourth (southmost) track terminating near Rawson),
stub track for el car shuttles on both Astoria and Corona branches
(the shuttle train came in from Astoria then went out to Corona
and vice versa, and was operated by the BMT), then a through track
coming from the 2nd Ave el via the QB bridge over which the IRT
ran el cars either to Corona or Astoria, then finally the through
tracks to the Steinway tubes (again, could go either way ,
although I think IRT subway cars to Astoria were not that common
a service).
Stations out on the branches were originally constructed for
dual fare zones (front half/rear half) to allow the two
competing companies to collect their own fares. The BRT did
not exercise its trackage rights, though, under this arrangement and
from ca 1918-1923, the IRT provided all service. Subsequently, the
IRt and BMT reached a revenue sharing agreement and the dual
fare control zones were eradicated.
Tom: For some reason only the first half of your posting is printed on my computer. Your memory is correct but maybe it will be helpful if I clarify things somewhat. As you know the Queensboro Plaza Station was a three level eight track elevated structure. The upper level was intended for trains from Manhattan going to Queens while the lower level was for trains from Queens going to Manhattan. A third level underneath the lower level was for the fare controls.
Both upper and lower levels had four tracks and two island platforms. The two south tracks on each level were for the IRT while the two north tracks were for the BMT. Basically this is the track assignments from the 1938 to 1949. IRT upper level south track (C) was for subway trains to either the Astoria or Flushing Line while the IRT upper level north track (G) was for 2 Av El trains to Astoria or Flushing. This track was unused after 1942. The IRT lower level south track (D) was for IRT trains from Flushing going to Manhattan via either the el or subway while the IRT lower level north track(H)
was for IRT trains from Astoria to Manhattan via either the subway or el.
The BMT upper level south track (A) was for BMT subway trains from Manhattan arriving at QB Plaza and discharging passengers, they then reverse on the layup tracks on the south side of the el structure between QB Plaza and 33 Street. The BMT upper level north track (E) was used for the BMT shuttle to Astoria. The BMT lower level south track (B) was for BMT subway trains to Manhattan from the aforementioned layup track. The BMT lower level north track(F) was for the BMT shuttle to Flushing. Remember that this is post 1938 when the BMT Astoria and Flushing Shuttles were separated.
My apologies if this posting got a little long winded.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The interest in the Astoria and Flushing operation prompted me to add a page to BMT-Lines.com
The page and the link to it is still under construction but click this link to see what I have so far which includes a scan of the contract drawing for Queensborough Plaza, with some color added to illustrate the BMT operation (sorry my site doesn't do IRT
BMT Astoria and Flushing operation
My question is ; If the segment going to Astoria could be converted to BMT standard requirements east of QB, could the same be done on the Flushing Segment, Main St included?
avid
COULD it be done? Yes. But it's a significantly longer segment than the Astoria, and would be a major undertaking.
SHOULD it be done? As a Queens "subfan" I'm too close to the issue perhaps, but I say no. I really don't want Queens to lose its only IRT. Historically, this is one of the most important lines in the system--and the first subway of any kind in Queens.
In fact, I do believe the Flushing IRT is only the National Register of Historic Places, which would make such a conversion not permissible.
One thing that could be done to improve it slightly--add some tracks--at least service tracks-to connect it with the Lexington and/or Seventh Ave IRTs-or at least the 42nd St. Shuttle.
I doubt the landmark status the Flushing line has would prevent it from being converted to IRT/BMT standards. If the Steinway tubes weren't so narrow, it would be a wise move, increasing capacity with wider, longer B division trains.
That is a great track map of Queensboro Plaza that you have on your website. I could not tell from it what the date that arrangement was in effect. As I have indicated in a much longer post today, this does not match my recollection of the station in 1946-48.
Tom
Larry;
Thank you for the information regarding the track assignments at Queensboro Plaza. The track assignments you posted seem correct for the pre consolidation period, but do not jibe with my memory of the station from 1946-48. As you can see from the time it took to respond to your post, I have spent considerable time considering the matter, and your post jogged my memory.
At that time I remember looking over at the upper level North platform at night and seeing it dark except for one or two work lights, and Q type cars laid up on both sides of the platform with their lights off. I thought of it at the time as a "Ghost Station" with "Ghost Trains". Admittedly over this length of time, memory tends to play tricks on you, but the logic of it fits also. After consolidation (1940)there was no good reason to keep the North platforms exclusively BMT and the South platforms exclusively IRT. There was a manpower shortage in the 40's so the most efficient way to shut down two tracks (former 2nd Ave. Subway) would be to shut down one of the upper platforms. Fare control was under the lower level, so closing off the stairs from the lower level to one of the upper platforms reduces platform maintenance by 25% (No light bulb replacement, emptying trash cans and cleaning the platform). There would be no saving if the upper and lower North tracks on the South platform were just left unused.
My memory is that the BMT Standards from the 60th Street tunnel used the North side of the lower South platform, and South side of the lower North platform. Once again, logic supports this memory if you buy the closing of the upper North platform. The South track on the lower level of the North platform is already sized for the Standards, so it would be used. One other platform has to be altered to accept the wider cars. The easiest one to use is the unused 2nd Ave track on the north side of the lower level South platform. This way there are adjacent tracks for reversing beyond the East end of the station. Logically the simplest track plan with the least crossovers would be to have the standards arrive from the tunnel and enter Queensboro Plaza on the south platform and then pick up passengers on the North platform. My memory is that the direction was reversed, with a cross platform transfer from the IRT to the BMT into Manhattan on the lower South platform. There is always the possibility that I am confusing that transfer with the later transfer after the North platforms were completely closed.
This leaves the North side of the upper level of the South platform and North side of the lower level of the North platforms for the BMT Q type shuttles to Flushing and Astoria. I have a hazy memory of arriving at Queensboro Plaza in an IRT train headed to Astoria and making a cross platform transfer on the upper level of the South platform to a BMT Q type shuttle to Flushing. That would indicate that the Astoria shuttle used the lower level North side of the North Platform.
Again, because of the passage of time, my memory is not so clear and therefore I am seeking someone who knows the exact track assignments in the late 40's just before termination of the BMT shuttles to Flushing and Astoria.
Tom
Tom: You are correct in stating that from 1940 onwards there did not seem to be much rationale to continue to jointly operate the Flushing and Astoria Lines. Unification occurred in 1939 but the Second Avenue El continued to operate until 1942 precluding any BMT operation into the south side of the station. Any operation of BMT subway trains into the south side of the station would have required building of new steelwork as was finally done in 1949 but was not possible during war-time. Another thing to consider was that separate fare controls were maintained at Queensboro Plaza even after Unification. It was not actually a free transfer point since both north and south platforms served both lines. The first three stations (at least) on the Flushing Line east of Queensboro plaza had separate turnstiles fro eastbound and westbound trains so passengers could not conviently ride beyond Queensboro Plaza and change to a BMT or IRT train going in the opposite direction. This persisted until at least the 1970's I think. I do not doubt in the least what you have said about the darkened platform but possibly that had something to do with the blackout restrictions. I'm sure your aware of this but many of the younger hands may not realize that in the early days after America's entry into the war German U-Boats were sinking costal shipping traffic right off Coney Island in part because the city lights were silhouetting the ships. Blackout restictions were imposed and presumably this applied to street lamps as well as elevated stations.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> I do not doubt in the least what you have said about the darkened platform but possibly that had something to do with the blackout restrictions <<<
Larry;
There were no blackout restrictions in 1946, and I was looking across the lighted upper South platform to the unlighted upper North platform.
>>> Another thing to consider was that separate fare controls were maintained at Queensboro Plaza even after Unification <<<
There were defiantly not separate fare controls at Queensboro Plaza from 1946-48. Fare control was on the mezzanine below the lower platforms, and there was free access to all platforms inside the fare control. The 1948 subway map which can be found on this site lists Queensboro Plaza as one station with BMT and IRT lines going into the station with no indication of separate fare zones.
>>> Any operation of BMT subway trains into the south side of the station would have required building of new steelwork as was finally done in 1949 <<<
Both sides of original station were built with the same structural strength. They are not separate structures. The only thing required to bring BMT trains into the south platform was providing a track connection with the 60th Street tunnel and shaving back the platform to allow the wider cars.
Tom
Tom: I must apologize for mis-reading your posting. I thought that you were referring to 1942,while I don't know but I must of had WWII on my mind. If you would care to e-mail me I might have some of the information that you are looking for.
Best Wishes,Larry
RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
I enjoyed reading all the responses to this Thread.
I guess, we also have to start at the beginning with the construction of the Qbridge, the conversion of the Steinway tunnels and the implementation of the Dual Contracts (plans & construction) to get a full understanding of the how, what and when of the Qplaza station complex. Someone could probably write a book on the subject.
...and a "U" Train, and a "K" train...
See the following G.O. notice, which I found posted in the corridor that connects the N/R tracks with the Canal (lower/bridge tracks) platform. There must have been a half-dozen or more posted! The look real, feel real, (I didn't taste or smell them...).
OK, who's going to 'fess up to this? When I saw heypaul at the NYD/ERA meeting the other night, he said this was even too much of a joke for him!
I'm back in Boston now, but I suspect if you hurry over, you might just seen some still posted.
Probably some TA Worker having fun as NJT's people would say the L is running to Hoboken for the Festival.
what's more, the worker probably doesn't even realize that there WAS a k at one point in time and that it was the canarsie-broadway-willy b train, rush hours only
And the off-peak C also at one point
. . . and that the K name was later revived for what had once been the AA. . . .
Ok, I've been waiting to post this story, and now seems the perfect time:
On or about 1993 or 1994, I was riding a #2 train in Manhattan. I was looking at the doors in front of me, whizzing up 7th Ave, when I noticed a strange sign on them. I got up, read it again, just to make sure I wasn't crazy. But I wasn't. Where the "Do Not Hold Doors" sign is on each door "leaf", I noticed a sign, or sticker, which looked like a regular one, but said:
Do Not Hold Grudges
They were on every door of this R33 car! Instead of the little red pictograph which shows someone holding a door open in a circle with a line through it, there was one of an angry man. I swear to god that I saw this.
It gets better. A few months later, on an R26/28/29 on the #5 line, I noticed another one. This was above the windows. Where the normal sign would say "Air Conditioned Car: Please Close Window", it said:
Karma Conditioned Car: Please open mind
I swear on a stack of bibles, korans and Torah scrolls that I actually saw this. Perhaps some practical jokers like to mess with us straphangers....LOL
Chris, I will vouch for you. I saw the "Do Not Hold Grudges" too!
Of course that was in the pre-SubTalk days, so there was no one
to tell about it... except my father, also a SubFan.
changing signs is a pretty common prank. Last year me and my cousin went and printed up a bunch of 9s on her computer and then went and changed all the signs on the sunset hwy in portland (oregon) so that they said "SPEED 95" instead of "SPEED 55". Lasted or about 4 days too before they were taken down :)
Actually, one of my plans for a prank is to get my hands on a couple of CTA Orange Line and/or Blue Line mylar route maps that normally occupy the space above the doors on the CTA trains. They're 11" tall, which is the standard dimension for advertaisements above the windows on most subway cars... including the Blue and Orange Line cars here in Boston. You can see where I'm going with this. :-)
So, if Todd Glickman or Nick C. is riding around on the Blue Line T one day and notices a route sign that says the train goes to O'Hare, they'll know who to blame for it. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
I used to flip rollsigns all the time. My favorite prank was signing up an "EE" or "GG" train as an "MM", which, of course, was also on the rollsign. Destinations would be 57th Street and Metropolitan Avenue. I did something like this to an entire "M" shuttle (which was mixed R7A and R9) during one trip - we had us an "MM", even changed the end signs and the crew didn't notice a thing.
wayne
Perchance may this be one such ride?
Who is that lurking at the railfan window? The phantom of the Subway?
Tom
Maybe it's that "Dave" character whose name is on the door.
I don't remember doing that one, but I knew how to finagle most kinds of end rolls, including R16, R27/30, R32 &c.
wayne
You didn't by chance ever alter any R-27/30 D trains to read DD, did you? I remember riding on a few such trains and when I saw the DD signs, I thought, you've got to be kidding. Those cars have to have D signs.
DD? did any such train exist?
Hey, Wayne, what about the destination curtains on the R-7/9 bulkheads? You could have really thrown everyone for a loop with some IND terminals being shown. Frankly, I'm surprised that many of those curtains were left in place and cranked all the way to the end instead of simply being removed.
OTOH, as long as the marker lights were set for the correct route, the sign settings were a moot point.
I knew a guy once who claims he helped himself to one or more R-27 bulkhead signs, mechanism and all. Notice I said he claimed to have done this. I usually took what he said with a grain of salt.
Sounds like the 35-mph speed limit signs I used to see with the 3 closed in with spray paint to make it look like an 8.
No! What makes these false signs so interesting was that they were professionally made to look EXACTLY like the legit ones they were lampooning. Whomever did this sunk some money into the gag to get those professionally printed.
What was so shocking about those signs was that the subway car had about 30 people in it, and nobody noticed until I pointed it out to my girlfriend, who was riding with me. They really looked like the real thing.
Chris;
What you were seeing was bumper stickers for those without automobiles. They could give you a smile and were not as objectionable as graffiti.
Tom
I've seen the Karma one.
I can attest to the "karma conditioned cars" stickers, I saw them on Number 2 trains in the mid 90's.
Peace,
ANDEE
07/22/2000
This looks like a hoax to me. Check out the MTA logo on the bottom. It's either too early or too late for April Fools Day!
Bill "Newkirk"
This reminds me of something I've seen in Chicago's Wicker Park neighborhood a few times. First, a little background info:
Background info #1: Wicker Park is sort of a funky, artsy neighborhood centered around the intersection of North, Damen and Milwaukee Avenues right near the Damen stop on the O'Hare branch of the Blue Line. Lots of cool bars, shops and dance clubs all over the neighborhood. But it's quickly becoming a victim of its own success: The yuppies are arriving in full force, rents are rising, and it's only a matter of time before the neighborhood's first Starbucks opens up. You know the story. Needless to say, there's a great deal of tension in the neighborhood between the arts community and the new arrivals.
Background info #2: The City of Chicago has a rather aggressive rat control program throughout the city. In most of the city's alleys it's not unusual to see large bright yellow placards posted on utility poles that read something like, "WARNING: RATS" in big black letters at the top of the sign. Below that is a large graphic of a menacing rat with a big red slash through it. The sign goes on to say, "This location has been found to contain evidence of rat infestation on [date] and rat traps have been placed by the Department of Health, etc., etc. etc."
While walking around in Wicker Park one day I noticed a rat control placard posted on a utility pole on a busy avenue, which I thought rather unusual (they're usually back in the alleys). When I stopped to actually read the sign, it said, "WARNING: YUPPIES" in the same large black text. Below that was a grahpic in the same fashion, except it showed a couple of rats in suits drinking martinis, with the same big read slash through them. Below that it said something like, "This location has been found to contain evidence of yuppie infestation on [date], etc., etc."
When I saw this, I just about doubled over laughing... I'd give anything for a high-resolution scan of one of those signs (as well as the actual rat control sign for comparison).
-- David
Boston, MA
Great story, David!
When I saw the 7-X-L poster, I did the same. For a brief second I considered asking a the station agent about it, but then thought better... I wanted them to remain up for my fellow SubTalkers to see!
The 7 and the L Line is one of those lines that are confined to their 2/3 tracks. 7 X L? 7 Cross L? 7 extra large?
Todd. Thanks for reminding me about that wacko GO notice.
Maybe it was pasted around town as a gag by the promoters of the new movie mega-hit, "X-Men." I bet that's it!
Clever promo, if it was indeed the movie studios!
Doug aka BMTman
Does anybody know if the TA will have the R-142's delivered with the
standard WABCO H-2-C, or those other type that they come with.
If memory serves, it was mentioned a few days ago (by Jeff H. and/or Train Dude?) that the H2C coupler is no longer manufactured. In any event, the R-142 and R-142A don't have H2C couplers.
David
They come with adaptors that are stored in compartmenrs under the passenger seats.
AFAIK, they have Ohio Brass couplers.
Compatible couplers are made by Ohio Brass, Waugh, New York Air brake and Dresser. I am not sure which, if any of these, will manufacture the R-142 & R-143 couplers.
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Hi all,
I know it's a little off-subject but still, it is kinda related to Hagstrom street maps for subway lines :o)
Since I was raised in NYC till I moved to Denver... I still buy Hagstrom maps (mostly large 5 boro atlas) I heard or saw something on the net about Hagstrom switching to digitally made maps as opposed to hand-drawn maps. Did they change the way NYC map looks? if so, is it better? or is the old hand-drawn better than new?
Thanks in advance.
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
>>>>Since I was raised in NYC till I moved to Denver... I still buy Hagstrom maps (mostly large 5 boro atlas) I
heard or saw something on the net about Hagstrom switching to digitally made maps as opposed to
hand-drawn maps. Did they change the way NYC map looks?<<<
Ach....as wrestler Kurt Angle would say...it's true, it's true.
The Bergen County, NJ map has already been released in a digitized version, scrapping the old gorgeous hand-drawn version, and my moles tell me that the 5-Borough is in the pipeline as well.
So hang on to your Hagstroms...they're not gonna look the same as the decade rolls on.
So how do you get NYC Hagstroms in Denver? Amazon?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know. One thing I've always loved about hand-drawns is that the original manuscripts are still the base. So for instance, in the Bronx 3rd ave. is shown exceedingly wide as if to have something in the middle (an EL maybe?) even though there is nothing there anymore. Other things make the hand-drawns really cool too. I have the crappy half-version - maps are hand-drawn, but subways are digital. I hope they don't change the enlargements of midtown and lower manhattan, those were incredibly detaileed...
>>>So for instance, in the Bronx 3rd ave. is shown exceedingly wide as if to have something in the
middle (an EL maybe?) <<<
Ditto for Fifth Avenue (Brooklyn) and Lexington Avenue (Brooklyn). They're shown wider, even though the els came down in 1940 and 1950, respectively! Hagstrom never sawthe need to redraw them, so the paths of the els are preserved for posteriority. Or something like that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you've ever seen those maps in their manuscript form you'd know that there was an enormous physical and financial investment in them. Switching over has to be an enormous task.
Even those indices on the back (you know, the individual lines that tell you that Nostrand Avenue in on Map 16, section D 3 and such) were constantly updated. It was an enormous task.
At least we'll still have USGS maps. Those will always be good.
Those detail maps I believe are already digitized.
Hagstrom needs to finally get rid of IND, BMT and IRT, it makes their subway depictions useless.
>>>Hagstrom needs to finally get rid of IND, BMT and IRT, it makes their subway depictions useless.<<<
They did! At least partially. My 5 Borough Atlas is copyrighted 1996. I gave away my previous one, (C)1994, when I got this one. In the detailed map of Lower Manhattan at the beginning, I remember my 1994 version labelled the lines passing under the East River like this: "IRT 7th AV SUBWAY LINES 2&3," with a note in small print that the division designations "have been officially discontinued, but are still in common use." In both that map and the adjoining map of the "Theater District," the 1996 version omits "IRT" (and any other division designations, except within the station descriptions on the Lower Manhattan map). Personally, I'm kicking myself for having given away the 1994 map, as it included both the correct current information and a taste of the past, but that's just me.
Kevin Walsh Wrote:
<>
No, there's a large map store called "Maps Unlimited" just south of Downtown Denver.
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
899 Broadway, to be exact.
Steve,
Maps Unlimited moved from 899 Broadway to 800 Lincoln St a couple of years ago (a block east from old location) and they changed the name to MAPSCO - Rocky Mountain Region Map and Travel Center
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
DeLorme just switched from hand drawn to comouter generated. The plus side is that they were able to finsh all 50 states. The minus side is that the maps look like crap. Forget about having anything close to a curved line. They don't show double tracking or yards on the rail lines and they have colour coded the routes so you can't see how the off ramps work (although they would look all curveless and crapy).
New subway maps (well, sort of new, they're from May, 2000) are available at the Grand Central Terminal Subway Museum bookstore. A very quick check didn't show any changes. I thought this strange, as the new map (it wasn't supposed to be issued, was it?) was to show changes in IRT Bronx express service.
This edition shows the new MetroNorth service to Wassaic on the reverse (says "Opens July, 2000).
New subway maps (well, sort of new, they're from May, 2000) are available at the Grand Central Terminal Subway Museum bookstore. A very quick check didn't show any changes. I thought this strange, as the new map (it wasn't supposed to be issued, was it?) was to show changes in IRT Bronx express service.
I believe that the new maps were issued to reflect the Metro-North extension to Wassaic which they do show.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ah yes, Wassaic. I guess Metro-North has a reason for being too, not just the subway system. Thanks.
I've been out of touch with things happening in the city (since now that I live upstate) What were the IRT Express changes in the bronx? Thank you
B61 Leonard
Cancelled changes in the (2) and <5> trains to E180.
forgive the caps... i just got a copy of the sunday times, and sure enough in section 14, the city, there is a 1 and 1/2 page article called "smitten by the subway" written by randy kennedy... there are several color photgraphs, one of philip coppola, the man who has been documenting the mosaics in subway stations for over 20 years...there is a great shot of david pirmann sitting in a triplex car, ripping up a whole stack of my posts :-)... thanks david for this site, without it i would never have achieved my cult status... there is a nice shot of derek nisbett, who posts here under the handle "d train" and has a collection of 100 scale model subway cars...and a shot of me inside the r9 cab looking positively surreal, which captures my essence... it's really a great article, which starts on the front page of section 14...
thank god it wasn't section 8
I don't know whether my name is in Randy's article. If so, I got to buy tomorrow's paper.
Chaohwa
For us Sunday Times Impaired- Whats Section 8? [or is that an Army-MASH joke?]
Yes. A "section-8" discharge is the technical term for someone who's been found unfit for duty due to mental impairment.
yeah... if you were separated from the army with a section 8, it meant you had shown signs of being a railfan or something equally disturbing...
and in real estate it is federally subsidized apartments where ther tenants pays part and the feds the balance, usually thru the local housing authority. the vouchers are long wait list items, and the available units rare as hen's teeth.
Perhaps railfanning is the next new craze for the trendoids. All I need to see is Cher, Regis Philbin and Yoko Ono hanging out on the J train....LOL
Paul, congrats on the mention in the NYTimes article. I just read it and, while it takes pains to mention the good that 'railbuffery' has meant to historic preservation, I thought the article was the same old song and dance: buffs are weird somehow; 'foamers'...'f--in' rail nuts' and all the rest of the nonsense. Though the article strove to be even-handed, there was the whiff of 'get a life' about it.
For most railfans, it's a diversion, it's a hobby, but it's not an obsession, despite efforts in the media to paint it that way.
Now excuse me while I go tabulate my final list of Manhattan equestrian statuary that will go on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's not only railfans that the world considers "weird". It's ANY kind of specialty-interest folks. What makes one's hobby "weird" is that "outsiders" to any one hobby do NOT understand WHY someone would be interested in the hobby that they are interested in. Yet they have their own interests/hobbies -- which railfans might consider weird too.
There are folks out there that are insterested in streetlamps. There are those intersted in fire hydrants. There are people who collect the barf bags from airliners. There are people who collect beanie babies. If there is something in the world, smeone is interested in it, though not everyone is.
It all boils down to one thing. People are different. Thank heaven they are, or we'd be in a very boring world.
Railfans get a worse rap than other hobbies because of their visibility.
Beanie baby collectors usually don't carry their beanies on their laps on the subway and stroke them. Trekkies usually take their Spock ears off before they go to a restaurant (sometimes).
But most people have seen people apparently not railroad employees hanging around trains with $10,000 of camera equipment and engineer overalls and caps. Bob and Ray had a running character in one of their satirical soap operas called simply "The Railroad Buff." The character never said a word, just made noises which could be variously guessed to be compressor sounds, clickety-clack sounds, and traction motors starting up.
Of course, I've never known (or been) someone like that... ;-)
But most people have seen people apparently not railroad employees hanging around trains with $10,000 of camera equipment
They've seen Salaam, too? :)
--Mark
well my vidieo camera & tripod coss less than that
& i dont think they have a picture of me either ..
however this fall for 1 & 1/2 weeks they might get a cahnce to squeeze of a shot of me !!
[...vidieo camera...]
Video is spelled "video".
This is for information, not a complaint.
Thank you for your consideration.
Bob
If I said that, I would be snide, obnoxious and sarcastic.
This is not a slight against you.
>>> If I said that, I would be snide, obnoxious and sarcastic. <<<
Pigs;
At least you are truthful, Chuchubob chose not to go the snide, obnoxious and sarcastic route.
Tom
I would not have been called snide and sarcastic if I said the exact same thing, but if I were to correct someone's spelling, then someone would come out and call me obnoxious.
And thanks for taking things out of context.
[If I said that, I would be snide, obnoxious and sarcastic.]
Do tell.
[This is not a slight against you]
Thanks. I would not have taken it as such.
I've lugged my Nikon F4, 180-600 zoom lens, and tripod on the subway a few times. That's a few bills.
Did you ever see the Monty Python sketch about the that new mystery play written by Neville Shunt. Basically a son kills his father for his seat reservation (so he can see the grade markers) and the detectives beats appart the son's alabi due to his superrior knowledge of railway timetables. Then they showed a picture of Mr. Shunt writing and it showed this spastic guy making locomotive noises as he typed, peridiocally stopping to ring a bell.
That must be a newer sketch. I don't remember seeing it on the TV series. Who plays Mr. Shunt?
No, it was on flying circus. I believe it was the episode with Conquistidor Coffie and "How not to be Seen". I remember it well because my PBS station (WHYY) ran MP for a whole year and at the end they had web vote for the top 10 episondes for a matathon at the end. I was able to stuff the ballot box (I voted like 20 times a day for a month) and got the episode up to #2. No it wasn't only to see the trainspotter sketch, but that was a factor.
>>>There are folks out there that are insterested in streetlamps. <<
You mean....like THIS?
http://members.tripod.com/~streetlights/litenut.htm
07/23/2000
[There are people who collect the barf bags from airliners.]
You can't be serious. That would make us look normal!
Bill "Newkirk"
i have two questions about the barf bag collectors.
1) are these bags used or unused?
2) if there are used barf bag collectors, does anyone know if they have a website? i might be interested...
Yeah,
And just like coin and stamp collectors who really go in for misprints or minting mistakes, the really valuable barf bags are those with that infamous mislabeling of "This End Up!"
We've got: Hot Lunch!
heypaul, speaking of which, didn't you get a commemorative R-142 barf bag??? It was given out to all railfans on the first day of operation....
Doug aka BMTman
Speaking of barf bags, I know Wayne will agree that one of those sure would have come in handy on a certain sweltering, crush loaded F train all those moons ago.:-)
Wait a minute here!
Let's not disparage the barf bag collectors. When I was much younger I had a job which required considerable flying. I would collect unused barf bags and use them to carry my lunch to work. The lining prevented leakage, and the bag when placed in a common refrigerator at work stood out from the plain brown bags. Some of the small commuter airlines had rather humorous instructions and illustrations for the bag's use printed on them.
Tom
People who collect and work on cars are not considered weird.
Lets' face it, it's not just the transit fan who is out of the mainstream, it's the transit rider. Any lifestyle that damages the environment to a limited extent and costs less is now an alternative lifestyle. Essentially, thrift and community assets are an alternative lifestyle, credit card debt and personal spending are mainstream.
[It's not only railfans that the world considers "weird". It's ANY kind of specialty-interest folks. What makes one's hobby "weird" is that "outsiders" to any one hobby do NOT understand WHY someone would be interested in the hobby that they are interested in. Yet they have their own interests/hobbies -- which railfans might consider weird too.]
But there's a difference. It would have been okay if the Times had said or implied that *railfanning* is a little weird. We can't expect everyone to share our interests, after all. But at least the way I read it, the article implied that *railfans* are weird. I consider that unacceptable.
Actually I think subway fans suffer in comparison to fans of any other pursuit (feng shui, horticulture, the recording career of Britney Spears, macrame) because, as the article puts it, many subfans are middle aged guys (say, age 35 and above) who aren't married. As a rule, that group doesn't garner a lot of props. This was also stated in the Brooklyn Bridge article.
Actually most male subway fans I know ARE married, have girlfriends, or at least a healthy interest in, etc. etc. There aren't a lot of female subway buffs but there are a lot of female Forgotten Fans.
I think you can find a comparison with comic book fans. They get no respect either, unless they have something worth a lot of money.
I have a friend who is in complete amazement about why I have followed subways closely since college (I wasn't so interested before that; too drunk, I suppose). He says the subways are a dirty, filthy place and the MTA has no regard for passengers anyway, so why should I care? He has points to make, I guess.
www.forgotten-ny.com
As a former newspaper reporter and current subway buff, I must say I don't object to our being portrayed as a little bit weird (though I'm not certain the Times article did that), especially since "weird" is an inherently relative concept -- and since I believe that all of us urban transit fans, however subtly or secretly, have at least a slight attraction to that label.
There are many very fine, public-spirited and even mainstream reasons to be a subway buff, but that's not the point.
I think we ARE at least different, in type and by degree, not just from very mainstream (i.e., ghastly boring) people, but also from many of the other species of fans, collectors, afficionados, et al, whom other posts have brought up as being our equivalents.
I don't think they're equivalent at all. And I think that's a big part of what a lot of us like about the study of subways. I suspect that it's at least a SMALL part of what ALL of us like about it.
People who work on cars, collect glass figurines, watch birds, or pursue any of a thousand other popular hobbies devotedly are indeed regarded as fairly mainstream.
But few of them study and enjoy something that the rest of the world tends to flee from. Something that has a reputation for being a noisy, dirty, smelly, hot, ugly, dangerous, rat-infested, crime-ridden sewer system with tracks --- however undeserved all or parts of that reputation may have become again in recent years.
Yes, of course, we all know that the main reasons for our interest and passion are the thousand beautiful and sublime and ingenious and fascinating aspects the subway hides in its mosaic-lined caverns and atop its elegant els.
But isn't "hides" a very important word in that last sentence?
Doesn't part of the fun and magic of subway buffdom stem from the fact that most other people would never bother with it, and in fact, wouldn't be caught dead doing it? That its treasures were left to rot though the city's financial hard times, and that some have been saved by our attention? That your mother told you never to ride it at night? And some tourists never figure it out? And that boring people always insist on taking a cab? And ...
You get the idea. It's alternative. Underground (literally). Overlooked and underappreciated, and hidden in plain sight, like much else in this busy city. And loving it is inevitably just a tad contrary.
It's about watching Redbirds, which most non-buffs think are ugly deathtraps, as opposed to red birds, which most non-birdwatchers think are pretty and sing songs in the backyard, or following the Red Sox, which ... OK, that's actually pretty weird too. :-)
I think when one sets oneself apart, deliberately or otherwise, one should expect to be seen as a breed apart. Nothing wrong with that. Keeps the herd guessing.
[People who work on cars, collect glass figurines, watch birds, or pursue any of a thousand other popular hobbies devotedly are indeed regarded as fairly mainstream.
But few of them study and enjoy something that the rest of the world tends to flee from. Something that has a reputation for being a noisy, dirty, smelly, hot, ugly, dangerous, rat-infested, crime-ridden
sewer system with tracks --- however undeserved all or parts of that reputation may have become again in recent years.]
That's a sharp observation. Indeed, it's supported by my own experience - more than a few people have reacted oddly, to put it mildly, that I could be interested in something as ghastly as the (ick) subway. I suspect that attitudes of that sort are becoming less common, as the subway's reputation has gotten better. It's possible that being a subway fan will seem less strange to the average person in another few years. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if subway fans weren't viewed as *really* off the wall back in the system's darkest days in the 1970's.
Yet in another respect, it's sort of unfair that subway fans get tagged with the weirdo label. One of the great virtues of subfanning is that you don't have to spend a fortune to enjoy it. In fact, other than a camera if you're into pictures, and of course an unlimited MetroCard, you hardly have to spend anything. Contrast that to many other diversions (somehow I dislike the word "hobby"), which often require big cash outlays. For instance, take people who enjoy restoring older cars. It's not at all an unusual diversion. I've known a few people who are into it, and without exception it's been a very expensive pasttime indeed. Collecting objets d'art or Beanies or other things also can be a money pit.
I view subway fanning's cheapness as one of its best virtues, not least because it's accessible to people who aren't well-heeled.
I remember in the 50's and 60's if you were a railfan of any sort people thought you strange. Or if you had a model RR they'd ask "you still play with trains?" Now that higher education and prosperity have put a lot of professionals in model railroading and collecting old trains has become in it becomes socially acceptable.In some respects so has Amtrak travel, for what it's worth. Unfortunately subways are pretty much the mundane, have no choice to get there mode of travel; yet they are one of the most fascinating aspects of railroading. Railfans are generally eccentric, true, and I Look in a mirror saying that. But we are no more "loco" hope you know that Spanish word..than sports fans, car fans or any other hobbyist.
Tony B. Bravo! You have put our plight (?) into words that almost ring out like poetry (in motion).
Thank you so much for your excellent interpretation of the much aligned "subway buff."
Doug aka BMTman
Such an eloquent dissertation! Everybody's different, though, and in my personal case, as a mental dullard, I don't know (nor care) why I like subways (and subway trains and trains and trolleys and model railroad club layouts and riding the CMSL Budd cars, &c). I participate in the diversion because it brings me pleasure.
Bob
You get the idea. It's alternative. Underground (literally). Overlooked and underappreciated, and hidden in plain sight, like much else in this busy city. And loving it is inevitably just a tad contrary.
Thanks for your articulate insight. Reminds me of a quote by Chicago author Nelson Algren that I think sums up my entire life philosophy, and I like it so much that I put it on the main page of my website as well as in my e-mail singature file:
"You will never truly love a city till you can love its alleys to."
Or to paraphrase, you will never truly love a city till you can love its subways too.
And go White Sox!!!
-- David
Boston, MA (but always a Chicagoan at heart)
At least being a railfan doesn't involve any sort of particular ethnic background or sexual orientation -- That's when people's bigotry really rears its ugly head.
I operate a website called The Devotee Chronicles, which attempts to explain the sexual attraction some people have for people with disabilities, particularly amputees. The website has been online in one form or another since early 1996, and 99% of the responses I get from it are very positive. However, it's that other 1% that constantly reminds me of a segment of society that simply cannot fathom any lifestyle or interest outside their own narrow little worlds. These are probably the same people who think of Olive Garden as a nice Italian restuarant. Well, if that's what it means to be "normal", then I'm very proud to be weird.
So don't feel bad: Compared to being a so-called "devotee", being a railfan seems downright mainstream. None of us had much of a choice which lot in life we end up with; we just try to make the best of it. I guess it takes all kinds.
BTW, I've noticed that many of the devotees I know are also railfans like myself. I wonder what the connection is??
-- David
Boston, MA
David Cole wrote:
[[ "These are probably the same people who think of Olive Garden as a nice Italian restuarant." ]]
What's THAT supposed to mean??
It was meant as a reference to those people who are incapable of venturing beyond their safe little worlds in favor of something that may be unconventional or unusual, as opposed to blindly accepting what is spoon-fed to them by mass culture.
-- David
Boston, MA
[BTW, I've noticed that many of the [amputee] devotees I know are also railfans like myself. I wonder what the connection is??]
I have to go look for a ten-foot pole not to touch that remark with.
Maybe it is because of the rampent maiming that occured amoungst rail workers (especially before the knuckle coupler).
BTW does anyone ever say "I'd only touch that remark with a 10 foot pole" and does "I wouldn't touch that remark w/ a 10 foot pole" mean you would touch it with an 11 foot pole?
Don't know about that, but I personally have touched an overhead trolley wire with a 10-foot pole. Or was it 11 feet?:-)
You may not find a 10ft Pole, but some Estonians go over the 7ft. mark.
avid
Some Lithuanians do as well. Arvydas Sabonis comes to mind.
I don't know, you got me stumped.
*rimshot*
-- David
Boston, MA
Dave Barry, the beloved humour coulumist, was talking about men and obsession with sports. He said guys who like paint their faces, a watch all the games and attend below freezing games with out a shirt are considered normal. "However if some guy gave the same enthuiasam to let's say, the Amtrak Corporation. Memorizing the timetable, quoteing bizzare railroad stats. from 1983 and sinking into a deep depression whenever one of their engineers gets drunk and if found operating a train in a pink bunny suit. The authorities would be out trying to squirt lithium down his throat with turkey basters. However if I were to name my son after the Pitsburg Penguins I'd be considered mildly excentric."
This shows that our normal driver society has acceptable and non-accpetable hobbies. Guys are expected to like cars and sports. but anything else is considered wierd. I'm just trying to point out that the next time someone calls you wierd look at "acceptable" hobbies and try and find a differance.
I remember that Barry column!
It was clear he was looking for an example of a non-existent and bizarre hobby, not seeking to insult railfans. His comparison wouldn't have made any sense if he knew there actually ARE people who memorize the Amtrak timetables and collect statistics about trains for fun. Which makes it doubly ironic that he described a hobby that not only actually exists but is **relatively** popular -- there's certainly more than one company making a decent profit publishing magazines, books, etc. for railfans, which is more than can be said for some other hobbies that had no formal outlet until the Internet.
You know, I used to know all the statistics of all the players in all the sports. All also know all kinds of things about all kinds of things other than subways, as do many people on this board.
I think that railfans are just curious people who enjoy learning. In our passive, TV-based culture, THAT is weird. The internet is God's gift to folks like us.
Railfans can be as scholarly serious as academic researchers or merely as emotional as any other 'fan' (music, sports, medieval warfare--Society for Creative Anachronism, Civil War re-enactors etc). The best of it is that even the most intense of us are rarely sociopathic, the moneyt we spend is less wasted than say the cost of booze(let alone dope), and at the positive end, some of us are politically active to promote rail use and expansion. And that is GREEN!
[Railfans can be as scholarly serious as academic researchers or merely as emotional as any other 'fan' (music, sports, medieval warfare--Society for Creative Anachronism, Civil War re-enactors
etc)]
Talk about Civil War re-enactors ... some of them have deliberately become anorectic to make things more real. Medical records show that the average Civil War soldier weighed about 140 pounds. Some of the hard-core re-enactors have decided that they want to weigh 140 pounds themselves, despite the fact that men were quite a bit shorter back then. Result - anorexia.
Yes, and you ain't heard nothin' yet!
Did you know that some of those Civil War re-enactors go so far as to copy the diet of the period during war-time? I remember a PBS special on the subject where one of the guys -- in full Confederate regalia -- said he was planning on going into the woods and dining on squirrel and cats (yes C-A-T-S!) as many a soldier did in the field of battle.
Talk about going over the bend!
Doug aka BMTman
I was about to ask witch group was most extreme, but I guess that answers my question. I guess we might win for neatest stuff salvaged.
I think it's a "man" thing. Being mechanical, I enjoy everything
that is "put together". I really don't care what other people think about us, let's just enjoy our "hobby".
Chuck Greene
It was clear he was looking for an example of a non-existent and bizarre hobby, not seeking to insult railfans. His comparison wouldn't have made any sense if he knew there actually ARE people who memorize the Amtrak timetables and collect statistics about trains for fun.
Actually, I've been told that Dave Barry does have an interest in trains, as did the late Lewis Grizzard. No, I doubt he's as deeply into it as some folks are, but I understand he has a rather significant collection of American Flyer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"f---n' rail nuts" doesn't have an "E" in it.
Methinks someone needs a dickshunarrie
over at the NYTimes..
Sure it does. F****** Electric Rail Nuts.
OR....F***ing EXTREME rail nuts.
Peace,
ANDEE
My sister is most assuradly NOT a rail nut.
-Hank
I will be visiting the Shoreline Trolley Museum tomorrow, Sunday 7/23. Are any of you subway talkers going to be there tomorrow ? I am hoping to meet as many of you as possible. I will have a camera with me. I was wondering if I can possibly get an insider's tour or at least something more than the regular visitors get. My last visit was 7 years ago and I am sure a lot has changed since then.
I'm up here. Ask for me (Jeff).
1 South Ferry 9 at Shoreline Yesterday.
Have not been able to catch any of the 3 D-type fan trips due to injury. I will be fully recovered within the next 2 weeks ( I hope!)
Does anyone know if there will be any more D-type fan trips this year?
I'm hoping to make at least one.
Thanks,
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I'm looking forward to my trip to New York on August 16-17, and not just for the baseball part of it. I'm looking forward to riding my Sea Beach to Coney Island and riding the Cyclone. That is my favorite ride of all I have ever ridden, but it may have competition now. Yesterday we went to Knotts Berry Farm and rode the Ghost Rider. It is one hell of a roller coaster. It is long, the drops are great, and it is fast. If you come to California you have to ride it. It is great, really great.
Yep, Ghost Rider is a great woodie!!!
Have a safe trip back to NYC and enjoy the Cyclone!!!
Here's the link to the article...The rats omitted most of the pics though
http://www.nytoday.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=cg/Life/city/city.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=1726&eeid=2788098&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=hb1.40
Enjoy!!
hey gonzo, thanks for that link... but for those of us in straight jackets, it could take upwards of 1 hour to get it all typed in... here's a clickable link that will take you to the article with 2 additional clicks:
1st.. in the left column of page, click on THE CITY
2nd... then on new page click on THEY KNOW EVERY LUG
railfan article
Thanks for the link to the article. Now I don't have to go out in the Exton, Pa. area and try to find a Sunday NY Times. HeyPaul really
made the spotlight with his "motorman's cab in the bedroom".
Chuck Greene
Thanks for the link, Paul... too bad they didn't put the pictures in... then the rest of the folks out here would know who to avoid when wandering the system :-)
Seriously, it was a well-done article. At least they had the sense to print Dave's comments distinguishing real subfans from the Darius McCollum types, even though they wanted to lump him in with the rest of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went out to get a N.Y. Times Sunday paper but the editions shipped to the Philly area lacked the "City" section. Could a picture of
"heypaul" be scanned and posted on this site so we could see the great one?
Thanks, fellow sub-fans.
Chuck Greene
Not only do only the New York area editions (Early and Late) have The City, but only in the actual City itself is that section available.
What, are you trying to upset us now?
Luckily I eat a long time ago.
Come on , now. He can't be that weird, can he? After all, he's a math tutor. You have to be pretty intelligent to do that. I'm a Mechanical Designer and at least I don't put myself in the "dumb" catagory.
Chuck Greene
What does 2 + 2 equal??? 4 or course.
I just tutored in math.
;-)
For those who don't want to type all of that, here is a direct link to the article .
I continue to assert: Why does railfannery have to be defended from charges of being "weird"? Why is it weird to LIKE the subway system, instead of hating it?
This is just another example of how conformists look at those who are different or unusual in any way. Note the perjorative use of the word "loner" in the article, suggesting that it is not quite right to prefer one's own company, that normal people are part of the crowd.
I am leaving for a week and will not be able to post on Subtalk. Therefore I hereby appoint heypaul to function as my replacement... the rest of this is for him....
Dearest Ru- i mean heypaul,
Since the Subtalkers Subtalk about us behind our SubBacks (the crap I got for not knoing about the Botanical-Franklin transfer, etc.).... you shall take charge of the following duties:
Pimping the idea of connecting the 2nd Ave. to the Nassaus.
Replacing the Manny B with tunnels
BART-style subway to SI via VNB and NJ via GWB
and the most important responsibility of all....
annoying people :)
I WILL SEE YOU ALL NEXT WEEKEND
P.S. If Salaam comes back put in a good word for him eh?
The one and only,
A.B.E.
have a good time... i may not be able to shoulder some of the projects you gave me, but i and avid reader will continue to annoy people...
as far as the manhattan bridge, i for one would sever all connections between brooklyn and the rest of the city, and force the people here to turn brooklyn back into one of the top manufacturing centers in the united states...
I was just curious as to what all of the tubes that span the East River are called. For example, I know that the A and C run through the Cranberry Street Tunnel, the N, R, and M run through the Montague Street Tunnel, and the 4 and 5 run through the Joralemon Street Tunnel.
What tunnel does the F run through from Brooklyn to Manhattan?
What about the E and the F between Manhattan and Queens? Or the 2 and the 3?
And there are others: the 7, the L, the N and R (Manhtn-Qns), and the Q.
Anyone know the answers?
Sly
What tunnel does the F run through from Brooklyn to Manhattan?
Rutgers Street Tunnel.
What about the E and the F between Manhattan and Queens? Or the 2 and the 3?
53rd Street and Clark Street Tunnel respectively.
And there are others: the 7, the L, the N and R (Manhtn-Qns), and the Q.
Steinway, 14th Street, 60th Street and 63rd Street, respectively.
Sly: Here's the list of tunnel names from the NYCTA Facts and Figures Book of 1979.
149 Street for the #2
Jouralemon St for the #4 and 5 (to Bklyn)
Steinway for the #7
Lexington Av for the #4,5,6 to The Bronx
Clark St for the #2 and 3 to Bklyn
60 Street for the N and R
Montague St for the M,N and R to Lower Manhattan
14 Street for the L
Fulton-Cranberry Sreets for the A and C
161 Street for the B and D to the Concourse
53 Street for the E and F
63 Street for the B,Q and S
Rutgers-Jay St for the F to Bklyn
Jackson Av under Newtown Creek for the G
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, Larry. You've been most helpful.
Sly
FYI the "East River Tubes' are the PRR/LIAR tunnles that run from Penn Station to F interlocking. The Hudson Tubes are on the other side.
While I was in Peris , California at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ....the largest on the west coast..I bought a very nice video made by valhalla vidieo productions 714 544-2714 phone
on the excellent & beautiful san diego ""REDBIRD" light rail trolley system !!! I must say for the cost & just doing it right
( a lesson los angeles still has not learned ) that the ""redbirds"
of san diego are very beautiful to look at in operation !!! I just cannot wait to experence this for myself
1100 irvine blvd ste 325 tustin calif 92780-3529 is thier address for thier video collection...
Here is the Valhalla website . The San Diego Trolley video is 55 minutes long and costs $21.95.
Tom
thats right I bought the last one stocked at the ORANGE EMPIRE TRANSIT MUSEUM
in peris california out htere in the hot desert area of riverside county highway # 215 south of the pomona freeway # 60 You do pass a lot of metrolink stations!!
a lot of runbys on the tape & a very beautiful system to watch !!! I cant wait to experence this !!
thats right I bought the last one stocked at the ORANGE EMPIRE TRANSIT MUSEUM
in peris california out here in the hot desert area of riverside county highway # 215 south of the pomona freeway # 60 You do pass a lot of metrolink stations!!
a lot of runbys on the tape & a very beautiful system to watch !!! I cant wait to experence this !!
With the north side tracks of the Manny B to be closed down, can a reverse or scissor switch be put in to turn trains at Grand Street ?
Doesn’t look like it, based upon that when the Manny B. tracks aren’t used, B and D lines terminate at Second Avenue on the almost-unused centre tracks at the Houston-Essex stub.
Actually, let me backtrack a bit. B trains terminate at Second Avenue . . . and (at least on a few occasions) D trains travel via the F route to Coney Island via Culver – just as the D itself did prior to 1967.
Speaking of G.O.’s . . . I was travelling via the Sixth Avenue route on the F line and what did I see at Broadway-Lafayette St. station but an N train of R-68’s, Sea Beach-bound, with the northern terminus listed as 57th Street-6th Avenue.
Hi WB.
These "N" trains are running up 6th Ave, due to track work between Dekalb Ave and Canal St. Actually, last week, I ponted out that when these "N" trains are at Dekalb Ave, against the wall, the illuminated route indicator reads Via Bridge....Broadway. Just an interesting note.
What are the many, many users of Grand street supposed to do? It's one of the busiest subway stations I've seen. It caters to the fast growing "new" area of Chinatown. As I said it would be best if the V train went there and used a new switch to turn around on the approach tracks.
They can't just close the station. Then again we're talking about the MTA here, they probably don't have the brains to do the right service adjustments.
They can just close the station, the only reason it's popular is because of bridge access. Everyone will simply shift to Canal.
Yup, Canal St was as busy as Grand St. pre 1988.
Busier, since back then Grand Street was more 'out of the loop' as far as the main business area of Chinatown is concerned. Overall, Canal is probably still more convienent for people coming from Brookyln to the area, but not-so-convienent they're willing to put up with the Montague Street tunnel ride instead of just walking over from Grand.
Chinatown has changed since 1988. While Grand St. may have been farther out of the way then, many Chinese-specific businesses which have opened since then have been nearer to the Grand St. stop. These will suffer when the switchover is made.
Perhaps there should at least by an effort by the TA to serve Grand street with a shuttle so they can connect with the 6th ave line or take it to 34th and get the Brooklyn-bound expresses on the Broadway line.
What the TA should do is run the (proposed) V line down to Grand and put in a switch so they can turn around on the bridge approach tracks.
The V would run express on 6th ave, perhaps dare I saw make no stops between 34th and Grand since there won't be much in the way of 6th ave express service. Or it could be a shuttle.
It's a nice little walk over from Grand street to the Canal street bridge station on the Broadway line. And there aint exactly good bus service in Chinatown. And like you said, businesses will hurt if the TA closes Grand street.
The TA must keep in mind Grand street is a very busy station, and should try to do the best to accomadate people, by providing trains to connect them to the Broadway line, ideally a 6th ave express so they can get to the Broadway line at 34th street.
At least let them have buses so people from that area can get to the Canal street station. East Chinatown is quite busy, just as busy as the Canal street area and transit service needs to be improved, especially on the surface. There is very little crosstown bus service in that area, which is my mind makes no sense.
Or a shuttle to connect with the F train at Broadway-Lafayette. Then they could get back to the 4th ave Brooklyn lines by taking the F to 4th ave and 9th street and catching a "T" train which would make local stops then follow the B's route south of 36th.
Well as I said earlier my Manny B proposal goes like this,
Q-From 71/Continental as a Queens BLVD local through the 63rd street connection, then express down Broadway over the south side and resumes it's route after Dekalb, via Brighton express.
B-From 205th to Church avenue, running express on 6th ave IND then through the Rutgers tubes and unused express tracks on the Culver IND to Church ave, stopping at 4th&9th for transfer to 4th ave BMT.
T-From 71/Contintental to Coney Island, Queens BLVD local via 60th street tubes and Broadway local (T for tunnel) and then 4th ave local follows B route after 36th.
V-Express from 179st to Grand street, via 63rd street connection and 6th ave express
D-57&7th to Coney Island, down Broadway local and tunnel then Brighton local after Dekalb.
N-Broadway express and bridge from Astoria to Coney Island, more frequent service
R-Cut, M would run to Bay Ridge via 4th ave local and replace R in Brooklyn
G-Cut to Court Sq 24/7
E,F- would be cut back slightly to allow room for V on express, trains would be sped up to fit more in.
Call me crazy but I even went through the trouble of making a BAHN layout with these route patterns just to see how it looks.
Most people who use Grand street are taking the B to the Bensonhurst area, which is near the newer Sunset Park Chinatown. With my setup they'd take the V to Broadway-Lafayette then board a Brooklyn bound B there and take it to 4th&9th where they'd transfer to the T train to continue their trip.
I would also add A service on CPW express to compensate for no D service, with some A's running to 205th. I feel my plan treats the boroughs fairly, with compensating for service cuts in Brooklyn and Manhattan, while providing Queens riders with better, more frequent service.
With these "rumors" I hear about the TA cutting all service to Grand street and running service down Broadway, it's unfair to 6th ave riders. They shouldn't just drasticly cut service on one line and add service on another. You can't just expect everyone to go from 6th ave to Broadway in a week or two. Also the TA wants to keep N as a Broadway local when it shouldn't be stuck in the bowels of lower Manhattan and tunnel but run Broadway express and over the bridge. Riders who are south of Dekalb, especially those who now ride the N and R would benefit from N bridge service. But of course the TA expects to screw Brooklyn riders some more as if they haven't endured enough.
I see space on the Culver line that could be put to use, and they should run one of the 6th ave express services through there when the A/B tracks close.
But there are people who get paid alot to run the MTA and plan which trains go where, but in reality they don't have a clue on what the system really needs, they are only interested on how much money they can save (to put in their pockets).
Alright enough about my MB ranting!
I was on the 142 yesterday and everything was fine, until we arrived at 149 St-G.C. The train stopped, but never opened the doors. It just pulled out and continued its route. The conductor announced, if you were going to 149 St, get off at 110 St and take an uptown train.
Then, the strip map wasn't working and the announcements were very off, they wouldn't announce a stop until after it pulled out of the station. So when it pulled out of 42nd street, then it would announce that this is 42nd street. It was corrected at 14th Street.
I can't seem to understand what's going on with those new R-142's,
I mean with the new tech'these new trains seems to me they're a piece
of junk, You GO REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
The R-142 has advanced features that are going through teething pains.
The Repulsive Rustbirds don't have any advanced features! Except for their incredible ability to rust.
And this is a fine example of things being blown out of proportion. Few people will talk about their uneventful trips on the R-142, and the greater number of failure messages will give the wrong impression.
The Repulsive Rustbirds have worse problems. They are noisier, they are the ones that tend to have horribly screechy brakes, their air conditioners are the absolute worst and above all, they are ugly. The last one is a matter for each particular person to decide, but the rest are facts.
Excuse me, but seems to me you are no real subway fan at all, because
that's what we subway fans like to here,that brake screeh, and wheel,
squealing is what gives the redbirds character,those new trains don't
have it, and no rail fan windows makes them boring.
That's just your narrow-minded view on being a railfan. I hate squeal and curve noise and do not enjoy the railfan view, mostly because it's not worth it with all of that standing (On the SEPTA M-4s, it's different, but I've never ridden them). Each person has their own views on things, regardless of what narrow minded simpletons like you believe within your feeble worldview (I won't hide it, that comment was made to insult).
Sorry about not changing the innacurate subject line in the first place
Excuse me, but seems to me you are no real subway fan at all, because that's what we subway fans like to here,that brake screeh, and wheel, squealing is what gives the redbirds character,those new trains don't have it, and no rail fan windows makes them boring.
I'll take strong exception to your remarks. I consider myself a subway fan, but I don't care for the screech of brakes or squeal of wheels on a curve, since they are both indications that something isn't right (too much brake screech is an indication that the T/O isn't making a smooth stop or there is a problem with the brakes, too much flange squeal is a sign the track misters aren't working properly). And that's not a characteristic of any one particular car type or another. If by "character" you mean the creaks and groans and lurches of a worn-out, overstressed subway car, then you can have it. Me, I'll take a smooth, comfortable ride. Yes, I'll miss the railfan window, but that's life. Want to get sentimental? Join a museum and help preserve one of your favorites. I get that way too sometimes (I'm a member of Branford), but much as I admire the craftsmanship and the beautiful restoration of the single-truck hand-braked car (can't remember the number) that I had the opportunity to run earlier this year I'd a whole lot rather operate TARS 629, a double-trucked air brake car that rides much more smoothly and stops without a lurch. No, it doesn't have fine mahogany inlay or an etched stained glass clerestory, but from the standpoint of transporting passengers it's a better car. The new subway cars may not be the sentimental favorites (yet) but they're a significant improvement over the old ones, just like the old ones were an improvement over their predecessors.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You think the redbirds never have problems, especially when they were brand new? Every new train, car, airplane or any other mechanical item is bound to have teething problems. Like somebody said in connection with Acela's problems, if the Boeing 747's initial startup problems were made as public as Acela's, nobody would ever fly.
With your mentality, the redbirds never would have even been built. We'd still be riding around on horses.
Contrary to what some people seem to think, the New York subway system is not a museum exhibit. It is a massive part of public infrastructure just like the streets or the sewer system, and is under a constant state of change (hopefully for the better).
I'm sure a few of the redbirds will find a loving home exactly where they now belong: at Seashore or Shore Line or one of the other transit museums. They had their day, but that day is now almost over. Life goes on.
(Sorry for the rant.)
-- David
Boston, MA
Do you remember when the irt rolling stock now called REDBIRDS was new.??
I have some questions about problems they had when they were brand new & replaced the rolling stock at that time !!!
# 1 what problems did the nyc TA have with the new redbirds when they were being tested -installed & put into service for the first time ?? # 2 Could you list in order what those ""breaking in " & mistakes & MFG defects that were ironed out & fixed repaired adjusted lined up etc... later on ? # 3 What was done & or ""fixed" to remedy the problems when the redbirds were new? before they were approved / went in to service.......
I really would like to have this historical information as I do not claim to be the expert in this! ( thank you )
I can't say they didn't have any problems, but I can say without a doubt that the NYCTA did't have any problems with the R28/29/33/36.
-Hank
do you remember what those problems were ?? & what problems ?? how were they fixed & when ??
I'm glad your mentality didn't exist in the late 40's. I mean, those new-fangled electric motor doors, PA systems and flourescent lights will blind you, make you deaf, and crush you if you get caught in the doors. Why not make more of those wonderfully grimey, noisy R9's?
Yeesh...
I was on the same train, in the last car. I was wondering if the doors in the front half of the train opened. If you were in the front half, then I guess not.
The announcement (at 135th St.) about changing at 110th was very garbled. Was that announced over the on-board PA system? If so, it is a flop. But I can't see why live announcements should be that garbled, considering that the pre-recorded announcements are very clear. Perhaps that announcement came over the station PA system at 135th St./Lenox?
The manual announcements are garbled because the C/R is not used to making a manual announcement (will talk too close or loudly). Also, the external PA will cause feedback if the C/R window (or cab door) is open.
I've also noticed that on several occasions I've heard radio communications over the PA when manual announcements occurred. I assumed it was background noise until I heard it when the atomated announcements were going, too.
A CR not used to making announcements?
-Hank
(all I can say right now, battery power is not limitless, and mine is up...)
I mean, not used to making announcements on the 142! The PA system is much more sensitive, while yelling into the redbirds will produce a nominal output, speaking into the 142 will produce the same output. I also noticed the C/Rs sometimes talk while the 'ping' is going on, effectively cutting out their announcement. The same type of manual announcement mistakes occured on the LIRR C-3s when they were brand new.
Yelling into any microphone will give you disgusting results, as will 'swallowing' the mic. Best way is to be 1.5-2" away from the mike, and speak in a normal tone.
-Hank
Does anyone know if there's a trolley museum adjacent to or near Steamtown in Scranton, PA? Thanks to all who would be good enough to provide this info.
There is... they don't have a formal web site yet, at least not one that I'm aware of, but there's some information at The Visitors Center.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your link is to the Lackawanna Trolley Museum. Is that the same as Electric City Trolley Station & Museum, located across the parking lot from Steamtown?
I'm not familiar with that name, but yes, it's to the museum across the parking lot that will be running several miles of trackage using mostly equipment that formerly belonged (or may still belong) to the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, there is a trolley museum adjacent to Steamtown.
I think, therefore I realize this is not an answer to your question, that it is still under construction; I don't know whether it's open.
Bob
IIRC it opened last October, but AFAIK is not yet running anything - just exhibits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad to see the Times article. Much better than I expected (and not as bad as I feared).
One item jumped out at me that I've got to mention. The quote from Gene Russianoff (as in Straphangers Campaign):
"Transit advocates are from Mars and transit buffs are from Venus. They're really two completely different types of people," Mr. Russianoff, a lawyer for the Straphangers Campaign, has been a subway advocate and a New York City subway expert for 20 years. "I just can't sit there and hear about which cars are married pairs and which used a certain kind of lug nut."
Where does he get that from? Speaking personally, I've been an advocate and a buff for most of my life. The buff came first (how could it be otherwise from age 3 or 4?), but I've tried to look at transit soberly and come from a realistic perspective of its merits and demerits and what is possible and realistic.
In role of advocate I've known many people whose professional career in transportation was made more effective because they were buffs. W. Claytor Graham, the Southern Railway executive who headed Amtrak comes readily to mind, as does the CTA's George Krambles. I could mention many others in not as prominent positions.
As to Mr. Russianoff, from what I've seen of his work and from discussions with some who've known him, I believe he is a New York City advocate who specializes in transportation, which is not quite the same thing as a "transit advocate." Perhaps that dichotomy explains his beliefs that advocates and buffs are two separate beasties.
I'd hardly call him an "expert," either. He's the one the media go to for a quip, but that just means he's networked well, not that he actually KNOWS anything.
David
[As for Mr. Russianoff,...I believe he is a New York City advocate who specializes in transportation....]
Actually, Gene Russianoff is officially a (the?) Staff Attorney for both the New York Public Interest Research Group and its wholly subsidiaries, including Straphangers Campaign. In other words, he makes his living by complaining about everything. If any public agency attempts to mitigate the conditions being complained about, NYPIRG would sue on the grounds that it be deprived of things to complain about. (Don't laugh - NYPIRG/Straphangers sued to stop implementation of the MTA's first Capital Program in the 1980's, on the grounds that Straphangers would be put out of business.)
And in the New York Times' world, a man who sends out press releases ranking subway lines on the (seemling arbitrary) basis of which line offers $1.50 ride for $1.50 is considered perfectly normal, in part because the Times is in general sympathetic to NYPIRG's goals.
If everyone on this board got together and ranked the city's subway lines in order from best to worst, it would have more validity that the rankings Gene and the Straphangers put out. But since we're just railfans and are not in the Times' Roladex under "Mass transit expert," it wouldn't count for anything.
Washington Metro deals with signs of aging
Broken escalators and delays hamper the system as it nears its 25th birthday.
[Open in this window | Open in a new window]
Thanks for the post; this article is not in my print edition of today's Inkie.
Bob
1. Manual PA announcements produced feedback.
2. Seating in middle of cars not comfortable. Not deep enough. Wrong angle. Fold up seats at end of cars better.
3. Interior too blue.
4. Two intercoms in each "b" car. Three in each "a" car.
5. Doors in "a" cars directly across from each other. In "b" cars, diagonally.
6. Great visibility from car to car. Except from #5 to #6.
7. Chimes and blinking lights over doors activated at same time as doors, not before doors.
8. Emergency brake handle at each end of each car. Contrary to rumors to the contrary.
9. Overall impression: fix the PA mike, use warmer lighting, and tinker with the seats. Otherwise not bad.
# 7218 has a tagged interior.... yes, already.
1SF9
Now they can test the suitability of the interior finishes by trying to remove the tag.
if it is on the window, then theres no problem, if on the panel(which i doubt would take scratching) i can't say till i see it. as for the window, all they have to do is peel off the film over the window and replace it with a new film
next stop, grafitti on the exterior or interior!
# 7218 panel above the emergency brake...
...have a looksie!
1SF9
next stop, grafitti on the exterior or interior!
I didn't see a tag today, and I checked the car from stem to stern.
They must've fixed it. Wow! That fast!
Help!
I need a BMT Pre-SMEE fix! Does anyone know if the D-types will be running again this year? Missed the 3 trips due to injury.
Let's see: I'm back as a youth, 1964, on my way with my grandparents to Brighton Beach Baths via the West End from Bay Parkway. I'm on the ABs, front car, stopped at the Coney Island Creek Bridge, waiting for a Sea Beach D-type to clear the road ahead. ( anyone remember when that bridge had only 2 tracks shared by both the West End and Sea Beach? )
I wake up and once again it's 2000 with only the fan trips to satisfy my cravings. I hope there is at least one more D-type trip left this year.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Hey Hot Lunch: That piece could have been written by me. To all out there, please don;t junk those "D" type Triplexes. I want to ride one again, and as soon as I can swing it I will take a special trip to New York to ride one. A Sea Beach #4 Triplex to Coney Island. Wow, I'm back in my childhood. If the truth be known, I still have a lot of little boy in me and peobably haven't completely grown up. I hope you guys can understand.
I had the opportunity to ride the “D”/Triplexes on two different occasions, both on Nostalgia Train trips: one winter (I believe three or four years ago) to Rockaway Park, several months later to Coney Island. Those were the oldest cars I have ever ridden. In my youngest days I would ride R1-9 cars (mostly on the CC line), this was obviously before 1976. Then in the ’80’s I rode on the R10’s a lot. And on a few occasions, the R16’s (mostly on the J line, labeled as JJ) when they were nearing the end of their rope. And that’s just the IND/BMT cars! (Oldest IRT cars I rode: The R12/14’s, bar none.)
The standards were a unique piece of equipment, they would leave the Fresh Pond Rd.station heading to Metropolitan Ave and you could hear a louid bang like a breaker kicking in, not all the time but it happend a lot...i could hear it clearly from the apartment house that is still there across from the parking lot next to the station,it was very clear at night. never did find out what that sound was,the gate cars and later the q's were on that same trackage but never herd them do that sound,is the old trainmen building still at the end of the Fresh Pond yards ? and what is that new building going up alongside it ? bye...karl
By 1964, more and more Triplex units were finding their way to the West End line, where they ended their careers. Did you at least get to ride on them back then? I never did and am hoping one of these days to be able to experience them on a fantrip for myself.
I did manage to ride on the BMT standards and R-1/9s when they were still around.
Steve,
Being born in Brooklyn in 1956, I lived in Bath Beach until I was 5 years. However, all of both sides of my family still lived in Bath Beach and Bensonhurst, so naturally, I spent much time there, particularly on 86 street and at the aforementioned Brighton and Washington Baths.
Yes, I was fortunate enough to ride both the ABs and D-types on the West End, and the D-types on the Sea Beach and Brighton Expresses. Being so young at the time (1964), when the D-types began to appear on the West End, I asked my grandfather what were the Sea Beach trains doing on the West End!
Another interesting note I posted months ago: When the R27/30 arrived (1961), the West End would have all ABs running during weekdays, but the weekends would see all R27/30s and not one AB! I learned from Don Harold that this was indeed the case, since the reduced car requirements for the weekends allowed R27/30s to be pulled from the 4 Ave Local to cover the West End.
You can only imagine this 6 year old boy on his way to Brighton Beach from Bay Parkway with his aunt or grandmother on the weekend pleading with them to wait on the platform until an AB arrived! Well, after one or 2 trains their patience would wear thin and we would catch an R27/30, passing all those ABs laid up in Stillwell yard and then seeing all those D-types laid up between Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach.
Great memories!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I was born in 1956 as well - in South Bend, Indiana.
You are correct about the R-27/30s. Once they had arrived in sufficient numbers, they covered all Southern Division routes on weekends. What answer did your grandfather give you concerning the Triplexes on the West End?
I can relate to how you felt about seeing cars associated with one line operating elsewhere. Specifically, the WF R-36s looked very much out of place on the mainlines, and it was very strange to see the R-10s anywhere except on the A. Then you had the R-7As and R-9s on the Eastern Division, although at the time, I felt it was a step up from the BMT standards. I didn't like the standards because they didn't have end signs.
As I have mentioned ad nauseum, last Friday marked 35 years since my very first subway ride - on an N of shiny new R-32s. The rest is history. Two days after that, the Triplexes made their last runs. I came that close to seeing history, yet even though we rode on the BMT both days while in the city, I didn't see one single Triplex train.
After we moved to Jersey in 1967, I was a Saturday commuter for three years, and my subway routine included an A from 42nd to 14th (I insisted on taking an A train at all costs) and the Canarsie out to Lorimer St. The A remains my favorite route to this day, although it's not the same without the R-10s.
Steve,
I'm not sure how my grandfather answered my question, he wasn't interested in trains, he just rode them as a regular commuter.
Don't know what it is I liked so much about the ABs, probably my favorites aince I used to stand on 86 street in front of "CHEVY'S" clothing store where my grandfather worked part time (he was a fireman, so maybe being a fireman was his partime job!) and watching the ABs pass overhead.
My 2 favorites are still the ABs and D-types to this day, with the R9s running close behind.
BTW, one of the saddest sights I ever saw as a young child was cut up ABs being hauled down Cropsey Avenue on flatbeds!
We've Got: Hot Lunch!
There was another poster about our age who was also a big Triplex and BMT standard fan. In his words, they went together "like peanut butter and jelly". He hasn't posted in some time now.
There was one other thing about the standards that turned me off: for such a big and roomy car, there were only three sets of doors per side. I say "only" because by the time I first saw them on July 20, 1967, I had gotten used to seeing four sets of doors on R units, not to mention front end signs. Riding on them on the Canarsie line, I thought, OK, they sound just like the R-1/9s bull and pinion gear-wise. I like Brian Cudahy's tag line in Under the Sidewalks of New York when he introduces them: setting a standard for rolling stock. They certainly did just that.
As for my favorite cars, it's a tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s.
Steve,
That was me that posted the "peanut butter and jelly" analogy. I haven't posted in awhile for a number of reasons, mainly the incredible amount of hours I've been working around the clock, and unfortunatley the incredible amount of flamage that has been posted by some. I come to this website to share my enjoyment and fascination of the NYC subways, not to witness verbal abuse.
Anyway, enough editorializing, my fondest memories are of the Southern Division lines, especially around the Coney Island area. I meant to add in the last posting that when Brightwater Towers opened in the late 1960s, my grandparents moved from 21 ave and Benson to the Towers, apartment 22c. I would often sit out on the terrace, looking almost straight down on the West 8th St. station, or watch with a pair of binoculars the Coney Island yard. Alas though, by that time the ABs and D-types were gone (at least on the Southern Division), but at least I had the R9s on the Culver "F" and the Brighton "D" and "QJ"
Hoping for one more D-type fan trip this year.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
>>>Hoping for one more D-type fan trip this year<<<
Alas, there are presently no "D" type fan trips scheduled for the remainder of this year.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ah, so in other words, you've changed your handle.
'40 YEAR OLD REDBIRDS ARE STILL HAULIN BUD' AND HERE ARE A COUPLE OF
WEEK'S OLD R-142'S GIVING ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS. NOW THATS SADD.
GO'GO' REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Redbirds break down on occasion. R-32s break down on occasion. R-62s break down on occasion. EVERYTHING breaks down on occasion. We just don't hear about it because the cars aren't new and attention isn't being focused on them.
Ten years from now, in all likelihood, nobody will be talking about the R-142/142As, outside of a few buffs who either love 'em or hate 'em. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen any mention in the media about the R-142/142As since the R-142A pilot set went into the in-service test nearly two weeks ago. Only the railfans (and NYCT and carbuilder officials) are paying attention.
David
..your post (s) made the most SENSE of any I have ever seen for a long time
For example when the brand new state of the art italian built red line ""subway to nowhere " here in los angeles state of the art subway cars etc,&.. on the opening day of the completion of the final segment of that line
THE AIR CONDITIONING FAILED BLEW STALE HOT RECYCLED AIR .. (excuse me)
& was very miserable with no windows to open on the sides of the subway cars at all !!! ...@ just like the new r -142s no side windows to open when the AC goes down & fails..!!!!!
The R-142A has side windows that open.
I assume the R-142 does as well, although I haven't seen any pictures so I can't say for sure.
in lost angeles all of the windows are SEALED SHUT........ oh well.....
they do also
REDBIRDS AREN'T GOING TO LAST FOR EVER GET OVER IT!
This is true. It's time to part with tradition.
-Stef
Having just missed the train at 96th street Friday, I can most assuradly say the side windows DO open. It is high time you got your facts straight before you posted your crap.
-Hank
well the CRAP is all yours & the los angeles red car windows DO NOT OPEN.....so there mister !!!
"...@ just like the new r -142s no side windows to open when the AC goes down & fails..!!!!!"
Hank,
Clearly, Mr. Salaam Allah is so busy with all his other projects that he hasn't got time to read what he has already posted (whether it's incorrect or occasionally correct).
BUZZ, BUZZ - Salaam
Except your claim was about the R142. Since I have never seen an LA Red Line subway car, I can't comment on its performance, reliability, or appearance. But based upon your previous rants and raves and brain droppings, I would assume the opposite of whatever you say is true until independantly confirmed.
-Hank
no it is true mr rant & raves !!
check out the la section for yourself.
THE LA RED LINE SUBWAY CARS HAVE NO SIDE WINDOWS YOU CAN OPEN..
& thats a true fact !!!
So you are now denying that you ever said the R142 didn't have windows that could be opened?
-Hank
i said that.........
WE KNOW FOR A FACT THE LA RED LINE ""subway to nowhere" HAS SEALED SHUT SIDE WINDOWS ( like marta in atlanta ) & NO WINDOWS YOU CAN OPEN !!!
Question how much do you want to bet I am 100% right on this ??.....eh..???
...@ just like the new r -142s no side windows to open when the AC goes down & fails..!!!!!
Salaam, In your posting #139847 YOU wrote the statement above. You are 100% wrong about what you wrote. You are 100% wrong in your insulting remarks to Hank. I know you are so busy with all your various railfan projects but try to be accurate about what you post.
RING RING Ding-a-ling
ding ding I am right about the LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY CARS !! ( no side windows that open ) @ LIKE ATLANTA !!
& if you dont believe me skull & crossbones .....ding dong ..!!@
And you proved two things.
1) You obviously don't know what you are talking about and/or delierately post false information.
2) You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong.
Back in your hole, trocladite,
Or maybe, as his many posts obviously suggest, he is a functional illiterate, and can't read any words he's not familiar with.
-Hank
What was REALLY wierd is that Sallam actually posted recently using proper spelling and puncuation. If that had continued, then anything impossible could of occurred, like the 2nd Avenue line built and operating, or every car type ever used in the New York Subway came back, plus all the Manhattan els, streetcar lines, plus everything in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island, too.
its my new reading glasses 150X ..the old ones did not work so good ..
Not to mention the entire IND Second System being built.:-)
Dan Lawrence:
I was just looking at some of Salaamallah's messages and I did notice that his spelling was often not very good not to mention his punctuation which also leaves something to be desired. It must be amazing that Salaamallah used correct spelling and punctuation if that is possible.
BMTJeff
It was not only possible, it was a TOTAL SHOCK. I now strongly suspect that his style and mis-spellings are an act for SubTalk only. According to several well-placed SubTalkers, his videos are very wll done. If he's smart enough to produce videos of quality, then......
Dan Lawrence:
If Salaamallah can spell he should also use his good spelling skills for SubTalk rather than his poor spelling skills.
BMTJeff
I recently asked Saalam a question about his desire to photograph in Atlanta. His reply was cohesive, coherrent and grammatically acceptable (Albiet an opinion from hardly an expert). My conclusion is that Salaam is either:
Putting us all on OR
When he's calm, he writes better than whenhe's excited or angry.
A assume the latter but again, hardly a professional view.
Several times last month the West Coast person who wishes not to be mentioned asked that he not be mentioned, even in responses to his own posts. I would like to grant him his wish and leave him unmentioned.
what in the hell are you talking about sir?....!!
too all redbird fans,
we all agree that the redbirds were the coolest things running on the irt and bmt. however, things have a life span. redbirds life span is completely up and cannot go on any longer get over it. speaking of redbirds, did anyone look at the styling of the Bombardier R142? compared to the way it was built with the ends of the cars fitted with two piece sainless steel and fiberglass structure it looks like a redbird however evolved. check it out
terrence KHI
I tell you what .......
Install railfan windows in all of your new 142s & I will make you a deal !
KHI:
I haven't been posting messages on the website for about two weeks but I would agree that the (R-142 R-142A) subway cars look much like the Redbirds evolved. The shape is much like that of the Redbirds but in stainless steel rather than painted steel.
BMTJeff
Oh swell, a buttercup attempt at making
the 142's seem THAT much better when
the fact is.... the 142's haven't
even passed trial runs yet!!
Break out the Champagne, Salaam...
.....it's bound to be a while!
cheers south ferry & what do you think about my post on the
"" DEMONCRATIC COONVENTION"..?????
to the next two threads there is no spell check on subtalk ( that I know of )....... just experts who know everything!
Posting online does not excuse bad grammar or spelling. Those who choose to ignore proper English are fair game for the scorn and wrath of those of us who didn't sleep through English in school.
Tax dollars are much better spent on infrastructure and new rolling stock than morons who refuse to accept the reality of their surroundings.
one thing for sure like the political conventions going on now & sub talk posters & you..
""everyone has an opinion"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................!
to the last threads .....thats "" YO"" opinion (s).. & I got it right on the LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY ..!!
any more questions folks ??
Yes, Salaam. I have 2 questions.
Question #1:Did you or did you not post that the windows on the R-142 do not open?
Question #2: Was that portion of your posting incorrect?
Question #3:Do you also have an R-9 motorman's cab in your bedroom?
Why won't you admit you made a mistake, Salaam?
You still have not responded to my questions, Salaam.
RING RING SALAAM - Are you there?
Train Dude --
It seems to me that Salaamallah acknowledged his error way back in post #139975. Well before you contributed anything to this thread.
So, perhaps you could take the antagonistic posts, colorful shouting and discussions of being "man enough" to a thread where they're needed?
Chuck
Yeah Train Dude... come fight for the R68s are fast thread... due shortly. Runs monthy.
That's the
running on
perspective.
since you insist on listing me by name....
I will join your club when a yes.........
""railfan window is installed"
& the transverse cab is deep 6 !!
Is it that time of the month already? Well this time I'm ready for the non-believers with radar gun in hand.
BTW: Love the graphics,
now thats funny!! good night subtalkers...... talk to you tomortrow night !!
Charles, I went back and looked at the posting you pointed to. As repugnant the idea an apology to Salaam would be, I was fully prepared to give one if one were due. Alas, i see no acknowledgement in his post that he posted false or even unintentionally incorrect information. So with great relief, I owe mr. salaam nothing. On the other hand, mr salaam has been harsh (to put it nicely) in his posts aimed at Hank, myself and others. He's shown that he can hold his own when it comes to defending his opinions and i think you should let him do so if he chooses. of course if you disagree, you can always vote me off the island.
141320 poster....
for the last time the red line in los angeles california marta in atlanta & many others have no side window you can open when the AC goes down & fails !!
& prove you can open a window on the los angeles red line without
a SLEDGE HAMMER & I will eat crow !!!!! ok mr 141320 ??
lets see you prove me wrong on this !!....??
Hey Charles, I think he's disagreeing with you too. The ball's in your court now :) Still no acknowledgement that he incorrectly said that the R-142 windows won't open.
what about the los angeles red line challenge ???.....
At this point I've got to just throw my hands up in the air and laugh. Way back in that post I originally cited, when he said "oh well", I thought he was acknowledging his error about the 142's. Now, I have no idea what he was saying.
Salaam -- I have no idea whether the Red Line has windows that open or not. I don't particularly care, either. But I am willing to take your word for it. The Red Line has windows that don't open. Anyone who'll deny it needs to answer to me as well.
I am going to be in L.A. next week. I wasn't planning on it, but I guess now I really have to take a trip on the Red Line.
I'm not sure I've ever been more sorry that I logged onto my computer than I was today.
Chuck
the red line subway in los angeles
NO SIDE WINDOWS THAT OPEN.. see if you can do it !!
& that was all I said !! it was "others" who insisted on the nyc TA subway car r -142 .!!
You know its a trip reading post after post with total madness !
07/29/2000
Salaam,
Why don't you write LA MTA and show your concern about the new Red Line cars and lack of openable windows in the event of A/C failure. Maybe they have a policy when a car with failed A/C is spotted, it's withdrawn from service. Something like our early zero tolerance graffitti program where a "tagged" car was spotted and the train was withdrawn from service for grafitti removal. Who knows, maybe openable windows would cost more or detract from styling. It'll only cost you a 33 cent stamp. Write 'em and see what they say.
Bill "Newkirk"
the red line subway in los angeles
NO SIDE WINDOWS THAT OPEN.. see if you can do it !!
& that was all I said !! it was "others" who insisted on the nyc TA subway car r -142 .!!
You know its a trip reading post after post with total madness !
07/29/2000
Salaam,
Why don't you write LA MTA and show your concern about the new Red Line cars and lack of openable windows in the event of A/C failure. Maybe they have a policy when a car with failed A/C is spotted, it's withdrawn from service. Something like our early zero tolerance graffitti program where a "tagged" car was spotted and the train was withdrawn from service for grafitti removal. Who knows, maybe openable windows would cost more or detract from styling. It'll only cost you a 33 cent stamp. Write 'em and see what they say.
Bill "Newkirk"
how much do you want to bet
& put up your BAIL first !!
That there are no windows you can open on the....
LOS ANGELES RED LINE ??********************************************
@ now whos telephone is ringing ?? .......ahhh yes !! ..... .....
ANSWER YOUR PHONE !!
H - E - L - L- O are you home salaam. The issue is not the LA red line cars. I could care less about them.
You stated that the R-142 windows do not open. I cited the posting # and even copied the quote. I gave you the opportunity to correct the error. Now I will not raise the issue again. You can either be man enough to admit the incorrect posting or not. I've made my point.
ok I win !! again !! on the
los angeles subway ( smile )
WRONG AGAIN !!
however I did wnat to build an IRT subway SIGNAL TOWER !!
( built to scale )
what signal should I copy & build ?? ANY SUGGESTIONS SIR ?
next time you are in los angeles
I would like for you to OPEN UP any side window on any RED LINE SUBWAY car ??
finally what is your wager on this first ??......eh ?
you can put me down for building the best looking & most featured subway signal tower ....
not a r -9 motormans cab !!
any suggestions as to where the best looking subway signal is ??
& the most features etc ..???
to all transit buffs. THE R 142 WINDOWS OPEN UP! THE TA IS NOT STUPID NOR TOO CHEEP TO ADD THAT FEATURE AS OTHER TRANSIT SYSTEM ESPECIALLY IN LOS ANGELES WOULDN'T DO!
Amen! What are we supposed to do in the event of an AC Failure? Suffocate? I don't think so! Every subway car in the system has windows that open up.
-Stef
except all three rail transit systems here in los angeles.....
red blue & green ...!!
Uh-oh, I think RTD made a boo-boo of sorts with the last two orders of LRVs for Denver. The Original Eleven, cars 101-111, do have opening side window panels, except you need a special key to open them. The rest of the fleet, 112-131, does not have opening windows.
Grow up, learn to use the shift key instead of the caps lock. Then come back.
-Hank
I attended the opening ceremonies for the 509 Harbourfront streetcar line on Friday (revenue service commenced earlier today, Sunday) and photographed the proceedings. When I get the films developed and prints made of some of the slides, I'll be putting the pictures up on my website as well as make them available to Dave Pirmann, if he wants to use them here.
Getting all of the images ready is going to take a very long time though, because slides have to be processed and prints then have to be made from them, since I can't scan slides at my end...
In the mean time, should I write a little report up and submit it on Subtalk, for those who are interested in reading what happened?
Also, did anybody make it up from New York, or elsewhere in the United States to Toronto in time for the opening ceremonies?
-Robert King
I can scan slides directly if you want to loan them to me to scan for you...
-Dave
What equipment are they running on that line? I'll be in Toronto for two days in mid-August and (if my wife will let me) I'll ride it. (What attractions are along that line - anything she might like?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 509 uses CLRVs based at Roncesvalles carhouse. Union station is not set up to load / unload articulated cars at the moment so the CLRVs will have to suffice. Most of the 509 runs on track that was already in revenue service. Only an 800 metre connecting stretch along Queens Quay between Spadina and Bathurst is new. Still it is a very pretty line running along the water.
To answer Robert King's question, I saw a gentleman from Philly videotaping early in the morning, and two transit fans from New York.
No doubt there were others.
It was a perfect day for a streetcar opening. I should have the info and picture for the 509 page to Dave in a few days.
I lucked out today and caught the R-142 at Gun Hill Road.My impressions were its very bright inside, dont care for the black floor, too much.The annoucements werent working too well,in fact they were garbled with radio interference.The double doors give you a good view of the train,i guess for security.The ride was suprisingly smooth, no clanging like the redbirds.Raifan window was kind of weird you can look ahead, but you cannot see the motorman or the control panel.There were two people inside the motorman's can a very young man who was nice enough to step aside and let me look outside the window.There were two men from Bombardier, taking notes and chatting with passengers.The train entered the East 180th street yard, I saw another R-142 in the barn, couldnt tell if it was a Kawasaki or Bombardier.A fellow passenger told me he thought the 142A ran better.The train pulled into the East 180th street station, we were told that the train was being taken out of service, I saw transit officials with walkie talkies rushing about.The R-142 pulled out,heading southbound, without passengers.The officials didnt tell us why the train was being taken out of service, it happened abruptly, so if anyone knows why because the passengers were enjoying the new train.The people I asked said they liked it.Overall it runs smooth the door chimes arent loud enough and sound kind of cheap.The overhead station sign near the ceiling wasnt working.So I couldnt tell what stop it was.The first thing you noticed about this train is it has very bright lighting.I have two ride this train along with the 142A a few more times before I pass judgement.
Enough Said!
Trevor Logan
Trevor, I think your age is showing. Your remarks are very premature. Keep in mind that the R-62As are also Bombardier. Patience is a virtue. Let's see what happens.
In order to keep a fleet of cars in good shape, maintenance plays a major role. Indeed in the beginning, Kawasaki cars are better than Bombardier cars. However, in a matter of time, because of the experience of maintenance shops, ugly ducklings will become beautiful swans at last.
Look at the example of Train Dude's Concourse Yard, because of their efforts, Concourse R68s are one of the best fleet now. Some may know when these R68s started 15 years ago. They might be worse than R142s now.
Whenever I see or ride D trains, I feel the efforts from the crew at Concourse Yard. I respect them more.
Chaohwa
On the real, don't do it to yourself. I am not some young teeny-booper or young child, Age has nothing to do with the pure natural facts!
History between the TA and the Bombardier/Kawasaki consortium that Bombardier can do anything right from the start. If you remember back when the R62 order went down, Kawasaki sent 1301-1310 to Bombardier to show them how to build the R62, NOTE: SHOW THEM HOW TO BUILD IT, and they still didn't get it right. The R62A show many of problems. And now here we are again with a Kawasaki and Bombardier order. The Kawasaki R142A has it problems, I'm not saying it's flawless, but in comparison to the Bombardier R142, the KAW R142A is doing much better and has seen less down time in the barn than it's distant cousin the BOM R142.
Don't let my age fool you, I will let that comment slide for now, as I AM A ADULT and will not result to a childish response.
Have a blessed evening!
Trevor Logan
Aint LIRR ordering new electric cars from Bombardier?
I believe so, but LIRR is so screwed up already, no one will notice new trains that have the same problems as the existing ones.
-Hank
You just reminded me that I have to find out if there is any recent news on the cracking frames of their wonderful, new locomotives.
So is the Acela Express. What a pain for Amtrak!
Chaohwa
Yep, and Metro-North too. Netro-North also just got new push-pull coaches from them, and I haven't heard of or seen any problems with them, but they're always mixed with the previous 2 generations (also by Bombardier) so it's hard to tell.
So Bombardier takes a Pullman Standard designed car and does very well. But they take a proven French design railcar and have design problems.
Now with the NYCT contract, their "fit and finish" seems to be more of a problem than their ability to maintain a schedule. Should NYCT invite Bombardier to bid on the next contract?
OH HELL NO, They should not!
Trevor Logan
Definitely should allow them dibs on the next contract. I like the way the 110B turned out, plus I always enjoy their commuter cars and it'd be nice to ride a Bombardier to or from school one day (I'm stuck on the Queens Blvd line!). Maybe if we forced them to use the plant up in Canada...
BTW: Keep in mind they're trying to squeeze the T1's technology into something with much smaller dimensions.
i think so too. first of all, the workers at Plattsburgh suck! they are the main reasons bombardier rolling stock got a bad rep hear(however they came out pretty well from my observance) if they got educated workers, there would not be a problem. also, that using T1's technology is a cost cutter, but from finding out from my sources, R-142 has nothing else to do with T-1. strictly different and more advanced than T-1.
You missed the point Trevor. Age = impatience not stupidity. All I'm saying is wait and see. Do not judge the performance of an entire fleet of cars based on a sample of ten cars, especially after one or two week's testing.
BTW: Don't let anything 'slide for now'. You got something on your mind - oh well!!
I think we shouuld just give them a chance, because no matter what happens we are going to get them both. The future is now and it looks great. The two trains will do fine in the long run just like the ones in the past that may have gien some problems. And that is coming from a motorman on the F line who really is no into irt trains. But I can say that I am impress with the new cars. Cannot wait for the R143.
i just wanted to say altogether that bombardier performs better in service. even though it is crappy(to me i don't think so) it road smoohter looked better and felt mor refined than the kawasaki set. have you road it yet? get off the reliability and get performance after a while the bombardier will pull through. i also think that the kawasaki isn't any better for the fact that when i tried to catch it at posted times, in never caught it, then i saw at the yard for three days straight and then again the next week proof that nothings perfect anyway.
Judging by the posts here, the R142 wins in confort. The R142A wins in Performance and Reliability. I've never rode the R142 yet but did ride the R142A.
i just wanted to say altogether that bombardier performs better in service. even though it is crappy(to me i don't think so) it road smoohter looked better and felt mor refined than the kawasaki set. have you road it yet? get off the reliability and get performance after a while the bombardier will pull through. i also think that the kawasaki isn't any better for the fact that when i tried to catch it at posted times, in never caught it, then i saw at the yard for three days straight and then again the next week proof that nothings perfect anyway regardless.
That was my opinion way back when the R-62 and R-62A went into service.
Wayne
Thank you Wayne, At Least some people are in agreement!
Trevor Logan
Trevor, thankfully knowledge is not based on a popularity contest. At one time the majority of the worlds citizens believd that the world was flat. Of course, most of us now know that this was not true. If everyone on subtalk agreed with your opinion of Bombardier, it would not make it true. The only proof will be what happens with the cars during and after the warranty period.
My big problem with Bombardier is that the contract they received for the R-142s was seemingly based in part on politicial considerations -- i.e. the fact that they built a plant in Upstate New York which employs New York State voters. While this may do wonders for the Plattsburgh area economy, it just seems that, going back to the N.Y. Post's story about the wiring in the trains a year ago, either the management up there does below-par quality control, or some portion of the workforce feels they have 'jobs for life' bacause of the political clout the plant appaears to have, and therefore do not have to do their best work.
The Kawasaki-Bombardier comparison reminds me of the difference between the U.S. and the Japanese automakers back in the 1970s. Both management and labor at Ford, GM and Chrysler had their heads stuck in the sand about what buyers wanted in a car until it was almost too late. In this case, obviously the public is not directly in the business of buying New York City subway cars, so market forces cannot come as directly into play, but if the Kawasaki R-142As pass their 30 day test and start going into regular service on the No. 6 train, while No. 2 riders are forced to wait as glitch after glitch pushes back the intruduction of the R-142s, the media may latch on to Bombardier's problems and make it a big enough embarrasment for the MTA that they do opt for the best work possible over politicial considerations in their next order...
...of course for that to happen, Pataki's appointees at the MTA will have to decide staying with Bombardier would anger more NYC residents and cost them votes than they would lose by pulling future contracts and possibly letting the Bombardier plant close. Considering how heavily Democratic the neighborhoods along the No. 2 line are, that means they would have to anger A LOT of voters to make their Republican quota.
Kawasaki had the same "Buy NY" restriction: the cars are finished in Yonkers.
David
But the finishing process in Yonkers involves far less intrusive work on the key components than what is done at Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant.
Kawasaki's key work is done overseas, and if I remember right, the R-142A order was supposed to arrive well behind Bombardier's R-142 cars, after which the supplemental orders for both models would come in. As it turns out, Kawasaki was able to built their trains, ship them halfway around the world and have the finishing touches put on at Yonkers faster than Bombardier could ship their stuff 275 miles south.
Let me give you some interesting facts about your concerns. In the 1980s, the NYCT contracted with Morrison Knudsen to rebuild several NYCT car fleets. $990 million later MK overhauled more than 1/2 of the NYCT fleet. At the same time, the fleet MDBF has increased 5 fold. The people Morrison Knudsen hired were farmers and laborers from the economically depressed area of New York called Hornell. While the R-44/R-46 were undergoing their GOH, CTA gave Morrison Knudsen a contract for several hundred new cars. The contract called for the first order to be built in the Hornell plant but the option order was to be built in Chicago. However, CTA was so impressed with the quality of the workmanship from the Hornell plant, they permitted at least one option order to be built in Hornell. I'm not sure if any of the MK cars were eveer built in Il.
The fact is that be it a car, a boat, a washing machine or a subway car, it's still assembly line work and if you maintain your quality control, you can deliver a quality product with a minimally skilled workforce. The same New York people working from Bombardier in Plattsburg are also working for Kawasaki HI in Yonkers. So lets keep things in perspective.
Don't misunderstand -- I'm not saying Upstate New York workers can't produce well-made equipment. I'm saying the conditions surrounding the Bombardier plant may -- because of the politics involved -- work against having as good a quality control as should be expected.
Ideally, there would be two or three plants upstate capable of producing a New York City subway car, and that way they could compete against each other based both on the quality and the cost, without the added advantage that Company A is going to make the politicians look better than Company b because they're going to give local voters a job.
My main point is you get what you pay for, and if the state government and the MTA are focused (or forced to focus) on making sure subway cars are built within the state, and rate that above any other considerations, then the chances of getting sub-par work in return are going to increase.
I really don't know what your aiming at with your popularity contest coment. I'm basing MY perspectives off of cold facts. The Bombardier order is way behind schedule, the Kawasaki cars were suppose to come last and in fact came dead first! Bombardier saw that and rushed the R142 right behind the R142A. Quality Control at the Plattsburg Plant is below standard, as they ran the first set of R142s off a track and had a truck come clean off a car. That's cold hard proof right there. I hate to say it but the people up at Bombardier were not trained properly for these cars, I'll give them that they build a very tight Push-Pull Commuter Car, they are superb, BUT the R142s from them just suck and do not compare up to the R142A.
That's my opinion, based off of facts and pure knowledge of the cars!
Trevor Logan
Kawasaki had a head start with the R-110a, and could base the 142a on the data collected from its test runs, and knew what would work and what would be a problem. Bombardier had no such advantage.
It had the R-110B.
Which is almost completely different.
Completely differnt as in B Division specs compared to A Division, or completely different as far as electical/mechanical components?
If it's the latter, than the MTA may have looked at the two test trains and decided the Kawasaki model was the better of the two. Whether that's because of what was designed into it compared to the R-110B or who built it would be up to someone familiar with both trains to say.
The main difference is the size, which doesn't matter much. The R-142 was electrically and mechanically based on a compromise of the two cars.
The main difference is the size, which doesn't matter much. The R-142 was electrically and mechanically based on a compromise of the two cars.
Size does matter, since the 110B was larger they could fit the electrical components in with some 'breathing room.' Kawasaki already found a way to squeeze everything in, and was familiar with putting new technology into smaller equipment.
I'm not really sure I believe this myself, I'm just trying to think of solid reasons why Bombardier is having more problems than Kawasaki (other than "plant bad"). I also have a slight preference toward Bombardier, since the very first rail vehicle I ever rode (age: 2 months) was Bombardier Comet II 5135, on NJ Transit (now a Metro-North car). I no longer have Budd to root for / defend.
I'm also trying to think about why the Bombardier R142s are plagued with so many problems as are Amtrak's Acela trains. Other Bombardier products are doing well, such as Germany's Talent DMUs, Boston's Red Line cars and Amtrak's Superliners. Bombardier also makes LRVs for many cities and I haven't heard of them doing poorly. And of course, there's the Sea-Doo and the Ski-Doo. Bombardier can't be a crappy maufacturer if all these products are doing well.
It's not Bombardier that sucks. New York State politicians are the ones that suck. They should have stayed out of the way of production of the R142s. The politicians are acting like a baseball team owner who insists on meddling in every aspect of his team's operations. It wasn't necessary for them to meddle and they should stop now before they make things worse.
According to an earlier post, the Boston Red Line cars were made at Bombardier's plant in Vermont, which I believe was built before the Plattsburgh facility.
The question is -- unless the company is just so busy with orders its existing facilities couldn't keep up with demand, why build a plant in Upstate New York when you've got one just across Lake Champlain? That's where the politics come in -- New York wanted home-grown subway cars, and Bombardier met their demands.
If the R-142s had come from the Vermont plant, maybe they would have the exact same problems as they're having now. But in the car industry, there were always plants that were known to turn out better quality vehicles than other plants (Tarrytown's GM plant was notorious for problems in the 1970s), and that may be the case here.
Boston's Red Line cars are made in Barre, Vermont as well as La Pocatiere, Quebec according to the builder's plate on the cars. Both plants aren't that far from Plattsburgh. Those two plants are also responsible for turning out R62As according to the R62A builder's plate. But there's also a third plant on the plates - Auburn, NY. I believe Auburn is near Syracuse. I guess there was a Bombardier facility in central New York. I wonder what happened to it.
All I can say is that this was a political decision from the word "go." But that doesn't explain why Amtrak's high-speed trains have had so much trouble.
I've been through Auburn several times and could never figure out where Bombardier's `plant' was. The town is best-know for being the birthplace of the first `modern' prison in the United States, but unless the company had just a small component site there, it didn't appear as though there was any heavy-industry plant along U.S. 20 or N.Y. 5, the main roads through town.
(All I can say is that this was a political decision from the word "go." )
How bad are the problems? This is what happens when you hand a job to people because they are from Upstate New York, and the losers will be from Downstate New York, rather than having them earn it. White welfare. I wonder if ti will be discussed. It is in no one's political interest to complain.
BTW, some of my relatives worked in that Fischer Body Plant, and it WAS bad. They had this silly putty called "dum-dums." If the line was going to fast, and you were suppossed to put in four bolts, you got two bolts and two dum-dums. On Mondays and Fridays, they built dum-dum mobiles. When union advocates talk about unfair foreign competition, stuff like this never comes up.
[BTW, some of my relatives worked in that Fischer Body Plant (in North Tarrytown), and it WAS bad. They had this silly putty called "dum-dums." If the line was going to fast, and you were suppossed to put in four bolts, you got two bolts and two dum-dums. On Mondays
and Fridays, they built dum-dum mobiles. When union advocates talk about unfair foreign competition, stuff like this never comes up.]
It's been said for many years that you should never buy a car that was built in any plant on a Monday or Friday (not that there's any reasonable way to tell). UAW workers anywhere aren't, or at least weren't, noted for their work ethic.
That plant in North Tarrytown is now a vacant lot.
It's been said for many years that you should never buy a car that was built in any plant on a Monday or Friday (not that there's any reasonable way to tell).
For those of us not in "the know", that's probably true. Back in 1970 my parents ordered a new Galaxie 500 and the salesman was able to arrange for it to be assembled on a Wednesday, with my father present at the now-closed Mahwah plant to watch. The car was also pulled for "quality control".
One of only two new cars I ever purchased, a '79 Bonneville (Canadian-assembled) was assembled on a Monday morning. (I found that out during a screaming session with Pontiac's zone office - they were trying to use that as an excuse for not finding the transmission problems after five tries.) Fortunately, they were eventually able to get everything fixed - the transmission, the wrong trim on one fender, the wrong power antenna (although in fairness to the assembly line folks that one was a case of the dealer making a mistake in the specification), the mismatched shocks - under warranty. The car ended up being a fairly decent one - we drove it 153K miles and it lasted the next owner at least 25K more before his teenager finished it off.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have to wonder if our '68 Ambassador was built on a Monday or Friday. It had all sorts of problems when it was new: loose A/C lever; a leak allowing water to enter the trunk; a loose hood; the wrong carburetor for its engine; wrong steering parts which resulted in a severe pull to the right; the engine kept stalling, the list goes on and on. My father wrote out a two-page list which we still have. Most of the problems were eventually corrected; however, it wasn't until 1974 that the pulling-to-the-right mystery was finally solved. It shouldn't have taken that long; you'd think that if a front end alignment didn't help, the problem had to be something else.
Even after all that, my father still rates that car as the best one he ever owned.
My Jeep, OTOH, has been relatively trouble-free. Another couple of weeks and it will break the 400,000-mile barrier.
I'm sure the R-142s won't have problems on that type of scale, just to bring this back on topic.:-)
>>> If the line was going to fast, and you were suppossed to put in four bolts, you got two bolts and two dum-dums. <<<
Larry;
This was a symptom of the American system of rewarding plant managers by the amount of product without regard for the quality of the product. The idea was to speed up production and let the inspectors catch the mistakes at the end of the line. As long as everyone in the industry thought along those lines, consumers had nowhere else to go and the poor quality was accepted as the norm.
The Japanese proved with their invasion of the American automobile market that quality was more important than quantity if you wanted to have repeat business. American manufacturers have learned from that and now put much more emphasis on quality control. (The exception of course is with computer software).
Tom
We had quality inspectors when I joined the company I work at, but have since eliminated them. Our aim is to build quality into our products, and inspect them as they are built. Deming's principals are closely followed here.
We had quality inspectors when I joined the company I work at, but have since eliminated them.
My former employer took the same attitude about software testing in '94, which is how they became my former employer (I was the process flow project manager, responsible for seeing that the development and test processes were followed). They found out that the testing process served to enforce responsible behavior in development; without the enforcement mechanism, development became lax, software quality deteriorated, and market share in that product family dropped from 46% in 1993 to less than 17% in 1997 (my information source left the company in early '98 so I have no figures since then).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aviation Week & Space Technology, a highly-regarded trade publication, recently selected Bombardier as one of the worold's best-managed corporations. Bombardier is currently the third-largest manufacturers of aircraft, behind Boeing and Airbus. Their Regional Jets are very popular with business flyers and airlines alike; they fly higher and faster than the turboprops they replace -- gettting them above the weather and thus less prone to delays and passenger discomfort.
And that's...
Another reason why it seems that the kawasaki did better. it would happen to bombardier with R-143 because the 110b is the test model and of course Bombardier will take the status from that to make a reliable train. proof of that is go to other transit systems that use Bombardier, they don't have a problem with them.
I'm not disputing your facts, my friend, but the cars could be going through teething pains. I know the 62As were a problem in the beginning but after many years, they have one of the best running MDBFs.
What will ultimately happen with the cars from Plattsburgh? Who knows! If they were trouble like the 44s and 46s, we'll have problem for certain. I suppose though the worst case scenario for the Transit Authority would be to can the 142 order and give Kawasaki an increased order for cars. Would the Kawasaki plant be able to handle 1400 cars?
-Stef
Kawasaki can handle the order in Yonkers, we jsut wouldn't see a complete order until 2002 instead of 2001.
Trevor Logan
But Kawasaki does not think what you think. In history, Kawasaki does not handle a huge amount of order like Bombardier.
Remember the R62A order. NYCTA was so satisfied with Kawasaki cars that they wanted Kawasaki to build the rest of 825 cars, but Kawasaki did not want to do that.
You can say Kawasaki is doing a smart business. Does success transfer to other areas? Look at the MARC bi-level cars. They were also made by Kawasaki, but they were delayed so that MARC put a huge penalty on Kawasaki.
Chaohwa
So far, Kawasaki has been very smart businesswise in dealing with the TA. Instead of following the leads of Grumman, Pullman, St. Louis and BOMBadier and building massive orders, they have consistently built car orders under 400 a pop. Warranties become managable, quicker repairs are possible and most importantly, they can remain in business. The last time I looked at the Yonkers plant, there were 5 R142s, 2 LIRR Bilevels and 2 Virginia Railway Express bilevels in production at one time, yet they have room for a hell of a lot more inside that old Otis Elevator plant. I think it is because they choose not to commit to large orders. therefore they have a record of 200 R68s and 25% of the R62 orders.
St. Louis Car Co. averaged around 400 cars per contract when they were churning out subway cars for New York.
My point about the popularity contest is simply that just because you and a few others chant that the Bombardier cars are no good does not make it so. In fact if everyone on subtalk said so, it would not make it so. The relative quality should be based on performance and QFR reports which are specifically designed to identify problems and trends. To this point there is not enough data to state anything but opinion.
What I am saying you have given virtually no facts. What facts do you have other than hear-say posted here. It might interest you to know that the Kawasaki R-143s are over 1 year behind schedule, twice as late as the Bombardier 142s. Does that mean that Kawasaki also sucks?
Um, sorry, I don't post nothing here "in opinion," I stay in regular contact with Subway Equipment at the TA, 180th Street Yard, 239th Street Yard, and Westchester Yard, also I stay in contact with Kawasaki and Bombardier officials too. So what I post here is what I recieve from officials, Don't not assume that what I say is opinionated! I've made VERY FEW opinions here and it was about existing equipment. About the new equipment, I will only post what I recieve from officials and non other, or from my actually being on the cars.
Trevor
Well, take it from someone who is very, very official. Your information is not correct.
Well then, if you work for the "TA" if that's your official claim, you need to approach the people that work on the train and at the offices! Because that's all I pass along, what I get from them and when I ride the cars myself!
Trevor Logan
Well, if you send me the name of the person who is passing along the information, I'll be happy to clarify the facts for you.
Sorry that I don't do, I respect my source's privacy! But I will say this, fine, no one at the TA is perfectly correct. I'll give you that, but we'll see, I'll stick to my favortism towards the Kawasaki Cars.
Trevor Logan
true. however trevor, even though you know alot, keep in mind about the possibilities. first, both sets are neither perfect, second, event though the kawasaki still stays in service while the bombardier is out working out its kinks, doesn't mean the kawasaki is very good, it could also bomb out and stay out for days at a time. the bombardier has stayed out of service since the second day of its debut (can't remember why breaki problem and some other glitch? let me know)but it doesn't mean that it won't stay in service after the problem is fixed. Remember the kawasaki set had the same problem when it first arrived for testing. that was fixed and it never had a problem. Bombardier didn't have that problem besides it failing the trip cock and upto failing brakes now. after that it will definitely run problem free. (i get my sources from family member who is right now assigned to work at E.180th as a back up of my info and logic).
Terrence(KHI)
Yes after the T.S.S put the train in Emergency it rolled 900FT. Kawaski had some minor problems but not as bad. The train did have to redo the 30 day testing but its now up to day 11.
YEEAH BAAAABY!
Trevor Logan
Wanted to make the East Tremont Avenue'rs
think they were getting first crack at
the new train...
On my way to meet up with the notorious BMT Man
on Saturday for a trip to Shore Line in East Haven
I, a redbird lover in all the word, saw the dreadful
r-142A's pulling out of the Westchester Yard..
They later entered the Pelham Bay Terminal and stood
for service about 7:17am. I did not board, nor did
I go bonkers over seeing this train.
Off to Shore Line.. Stef, you're "lady" looks
fiii-i-iine!!.. put a "coat" on 'er! quick!!.
On my return trip, at Pelham Bay, that evening the
142A stood as the sole train waiting to leave PBP.
So, I took it.. and saw truth to the claims that
the PA announcements were off by a dozen or so
stations.. and repetitious (one of these days
someone is bound to punch the intercom to silence?)
Aside from that, the interior of #7218 was already
tagged!! Off at 125th for the 5 to 149th GC...
Took the 5 to 149th GC for the 2.. while waiting
at 34th Street, 10 mins, 20 mins, 30 mins, 40 mins
without a mere 2 or 3 train, I said to myself
"Watch this be the r-142 goofing up somewhere holding
up the line.." And then it came, r-142 (2) train.
Calling 34th Street "Jackson Avenue", and proceeding
to bobble up on 42nd, 72nd, and 96th. Not to mention
the interior signage, or lack thereof, which shows
the 142's are out running "naked" and long before
they are fully "prepared".
Took the hometown 1 at 96th Street while a
redbird 2 trotted in, in all it's glory.
At Van Cortlandt Park, a layup-bound train
wound up having a sleeping passenger in
the train long after it docked at 242nd.
Took over 20 minutes to wake the guy, get
him onto the platform, and into alertness.
He stumbled away on his own power.. and
proceeded to tumble down the stairs..
cops were called.
All in a day's voyage.
1 South Ferry 9
Sounds like to had a hell of a time. I hope when I retire in a year, God willing, I will be able to partake is some of these excursions, and meet up with some of my colleagues. I'm really looking forward to that.
I just left the tube and boy did I see a whopper of a show. The Discovery Channel had a one hour special on the history of Coney Island. There I was transported back in time, but what I really liked about it was that despite the fires that plagued the amusement park, they stated quite clearly that the best times for Coney Island was after the Second World War into the early 50's. That was the time I remember so fondly. They talked about our subway, the Wonder Wheel, and my favorite attraction, the Cyclone. Wow!!! I hope some of you got to see it. It was a dandy. They say a revivial of sorts is taking place there. My heart wants to believe it, my head is a little skeptical. But all agree the worst time of it is over. Maybe we will all see with our own eyes a real revival there.
07/23/2000
Hey Fred!...Remember the Wonder Wheel?
Bill "Newkirk"
I do now Bill. I remembered after you guys climbed all over me about it. I will see it in about three weeks, but I'm not a ferris wheel fan. Roller coasters are more to my liking---like the great Cyclone/
How about Steeple Chase Park, They also showed Luna Park. It burnt down before WWII and never was rebuilt. Well they are wrong in a way. There is a Luna Park in North Sydney NSW Australia, that is based on the one from Coney Island, they just finished restoreing it for the Olympics, and it is served by a subway line from Central City. Since it is Winter there, it is only opened weekends from 11A-Midnight, right on the water, under the great Bridge.
Hey Fred,
See if you can remember the Parchute Jump in operation, the "Hot Kish" man walking in the sand with large brown shopping bags in each hand filled with knishes. Or, the "Good Humor" man dressed in white walking along the sand with that large "Good Humor" box filled with ice cream and dry ice.
Let's top it off with a visit to Washington Baths! (my grandfather always played cards there, while my grandmother would go her separate way during the day to Brighton Baths to play mahjong.)
I preferred Brighton Baths, since it meant taking an extra train from Stillwell. I couldn't understand why my grandmother was so upset when I snuck out of Brighton Baths and stood on the corner watching ABs, D-types, R-27s. Being 5 or 6 years old at the time, how would I know?
Lastly, anyone remember how the southbound AB and D-type Brighton Expresses would constantly toot their whistles just outside of Brighton Beach to alert the tower?
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Is the last of the genune carousels there, the B&B on Surf still operating? Do they still have a genuine band organ working or like many has a recording taken its place? I have a lot of fond childhood memories of it, then 20 years later taking my own children on it. Railwise: as a kid would listen in on the R1-9's and AB's running by too!
Yes! It is still there and operating. 81 years young.
bigedirtmanl:
Not only is the B&B Carousell still operating it still has a ring machine and Oh Yes! it still has a working band organ playing 66 key B.A.B. music rolls. The organ was built by Gebruder Bruder about 1913 and originally played 65 key book music then converted to play 66 key B.A.B. rolls about 1935. #4 Sea Beach Fred has a piece of Coney Island about 1/2 mile to a mile away from which is the band organ that used to be on the Stubbman carousel also built Gebruder Bruder about 1913 with the same style facade as the organ on the B&B Carousell.
BMTJeff
And that band organ is a sight to see. My new friend Bill has a whole slew of bang organs and carousells. Some are from Germany, and Switzerland. He has quite a collection and it brings back some nice memories.
[Bill has a whole slew of bang organs]
He should be in the side show!!
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Please give me bills E-mail address if he has one since I'd like to get some information upon what he has in his collection.
BMTJeff
The Good Humor Man I remember. On Surf Avenue and 10th Street, we could also see Bungalow Bar and Topsy Turvy. I also remember that under the boardwalk, there was sand to lay down in if the outside beach was crowded as it usually was. There were also pizza and hot dog stands there. What a time----1947-1953.
Three wks,ago at 207thST shops WF cars 9500,9501 were in the main shop having truck work done along with WF 9436,9437 all done around the same time. Went back 1 wk later work compleated and returned to service
Came across a copy of the Arco Civil Service Test Tutor for fifty cents at a library sale. One test item I disagreed with, see what you think.
98. A 6-track layup yard can hold 12 cars on each track but there are already four 10-car trains in this yard. The number of additional cars that can be stored in this yard is: A. 12; B. 32; C. 40; D. 72
I said "B" but the Answer Key said A. Is this a misprint or is there some valid reason for the "A" answer? Also, what is considered a passing score?
David Harrison
Passing score on CS exam is 70%. As for the correct answer, I'd have to agree with you that the correct answer would be 32. Perhaps one of the TSSs here can provide some insight.
Are you sure the question isn't supposed to read "already five
10-car trains..." ? The point of the question is that in a layup
yard, you are not likely to split trains to make the cars fit,
especially when you have a few 2 car slots open, that's just too
much work!
Jeff, you make an excellent point. This is a perfect illustration as to why Civil Service exam questions muust be carefully scrutenized. If the key work was lay-up yard then 32 would likely not be the answer they were looking for. However, if the key word was the maximum # of additional cars, then 32 would be correct regardless of what type of yard it was.
Rechecked question and it is: " already four 10-car trains in this yard." Your idea of not breaking up trains in a lay-up yard sounds correct, then for whatever reasoning by Arco Civil Service Tutor, only the 12 answer response can be yarded without breaking up the consist, even though a 12 car train would be unusual?????
David Harrison
That is not the point of the methodology in taking the Civil Service exams but case in point, when I broke in, there were tracks in East New York Yard that you would be REQUIRED to break up a train in order to lay it up, especially on the lower level. If you layed up the entire train, two cars would overhang the hand throw switch on certain tracks. Forget about common sense as you know the TA and just apply the answer to the question asked with whatever information that may be applied and you will do good on the exam.
To answer a civil service question, you must take into consideration what is in the rules posted, if any, before the answer is asked of you. If there is nothing posted as a general scenario, you are not expected to know the entire TA rule book and therefore use math and common sense to answer the question, which IS B (32). Passing score is 70% plus up to 10% for veteran's credits and in the case where the answer key is wrong, you would have to file a protest with DCAS within 100 days (?) of the posting of the answer key for the exam. Good Luck
Harry
I was discussing some options related to the closing of the Manhattan Bridge this AM, with a superintendent from one of the B division lines. Out of curiosity, I posed this exact question to him (the question that is the basis of this thread). Before I could give him the 4 choices, he blurted out 12 cars as the answer. I was a bit stunned. When I asked him to explain how he came up with the answer, he couldn't explain it. Possible explanations:
1) He wrote the test.
2)The answer is so obvious, it defies logic.
3) His math tutor was a part-time comic.
No particular point here but I did find it a curious coincinence.
I'll speculate - and I stress that this is pure speculation, since I don't have any facts on which to base my answer: there may be a requirement to keep one track open for emergency storage of a disabled train. Therefore, 12 cars (the maximum capacity of one track) would be the correct answer. The slightly more logical answer, given that another assumption is that trains cannot be broken up and a minimum train length is six cars, is two six-car trains or one train of greater length.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As "Engine Brake" astutely pointed out, the real key is whatever
might have preceded the question. Many of these questions will
first quote a section of the rulebook or procedures and then
ask a question based on it. Another thing to remember is that
sometimes those civil service review books do have misprints.
I never rode an M train. Could someone describe what the M is like (scenery,etc) and what the terminal area is like (after it leaves the Nassau Street J,Z). I've never been to Metropolitan ave and the Ridgewood/Middle Village area so what is it like?
The M line terminal is at ground level, wedged between the Metro Mall and Christ the King HS. It goes over the Lower Montauk LIRR while paralelling a freight line for a short distance. I don't know about the rest of the route, I don't pay too much attention after leaving Metropolitan.
From there the line climbs to the el at Freshpond. Fresh Pond to Seneca pretty much typical old 2 family, 2 story homes. Leaving there towards Wyckoff the neighborhood pretty commercial, also cross into Brooklyn here. From there its not-quite-so nice, typical old Brooklyn mix of row houses and business/apartments. After Central M turns into Broadway, shares trackage to and over the Willy B.Can't say its pretty but could almost be out of Brooklyn of 100 years ago. Over the Willy B, then subway. I'll limit my thoughts by excluding travel past downtown MAnhattan.
Forest-Wyckoff is dominated by the Matthews Flats-- rows of nearly identical 6 family (3 story with two apartments per floor) brick buildings. (I live in one). Around the Seneca station, they alternate between reddish orange and baige brick, but on Onderdonk and Woodward, they are beige with orange trim. When I forst explored the area 16 years ago (on bus; 11 years ago on the train), it reminded me of a gingerbread community. Now I'm stuck here with the poor transit, (The M only runs to Manhattan on weekends) and as a parallel post said, it is going down.
(Astoria also has some of these row buildings scattered around near Northern Blvd.)
Do I understand you right? Is the M elevated comming down, or were you talking about the neighborhood? I hope we're not headed for even LESS Queens subway service!
I meant the neighborhood, as mike pointed out.
[The M only runs to Manhattan on weekends]
I know I've seen it in Manhattan during Rush Hours
Actually, the M train runs to Manhattan only on the weekdays, with rush hour service thru Monty Street tunnel to Bay Pkwy on the West End Line
B61 Leonard
I meant weekdays. (It did run on the weekend of the 1st & 2nd and on the 4th holiday, because of switch & track replacement at Myrtle. Earlier, signs had announced that it would run to Broad at all times from mid- June to mid July, but this was "interrupted" by the total shutdown of the area 6AM Sat.-10PM Sun., except for the holiday weekend. Now, the extended service is over, but the total shutdowns continue for yet another month. So it goes over here.
The Ridgewood/Middle Village area is getting bad. Be careful if you decide to venture into the area.
<"The Ridgewood/Middle Village area is getting bad. Be careful if you I have to respectfully disagree. It may be that Middle Village is not what it once was - say 35 years ago. But if you are suggesting there is an increase in crime, or a bunch of failed businesses - something like that - nah!
<"The Ridgewood/Middle Village area is getting bad. Be careful if you I have to respectfully disagree. It may be that Middle Village is not what it once was - say 35 years ago. But if you are suggesting there has been an increase in crime, or a bunch of failed businesses - something like that - nah!
Hogwash. Both neighborhoods are fine. If you equate more minorities with "going down", then you'd be right.
The only thing factual about Ridgewood & Middle Village is that they're getting more & more congested...It's harder to find parking spaces and drive thru now than 5 years ago when I moved out of NYC and became a career sailor in your US Navy
[The Ridgewood/Middle Village area is getting bad. Be careful if you decide to venture into the area.]
I don't claim to be an expert in either 'hood, but I have explored them a bit recently and do not agree with your assessment. Ridgewood seems like a decent area with a generally well-maintained older housing stock. Its main commercial strips aren't anything fancy, but on the other hand have low vacancy rates. Only a few small parts of Ridgewood near the Brooklyn line display any signs of urban decay, and these signs are still fairly minor.
Middle Village is more affluent than Ridgewood and shows no signs of urban decay that I've seen. Its housing stock consists mainly of owner-occupied attached houses. Some streets feature single-story rowhouses, a distinctive style not seen in many other areas. Almost without exception, the houses are well-maintained and most of them sell for prices comparable with most suburbs. Indeed, the predominance of owner-occupied vs. rental housing gives Middle Village, and to a lesser extent Ridgewood, a degree of protection from neighborhood deterioration.
Had a wild guess about that area being bad since M service is pretty lousy. There seems to be a lack of good subway service in that area, and I remember hearing that it was heavily industrial and decaying.
It doesn't sound like the M line has too much to offer.
Really want to know wht will happen then e mail me though you will be dissapointed with the service that WILL be provided. Address earthkittpurrrr@aol.com
Why don't you just post it here?
theoretically it wpould have been an astoria expess after queensboro plaza. the route was planed as n express via bridge thruout
astoria express-via 60th st, via bway exp., via bridge, via 4th ave exp, via sea bch exp, to stillwell term.
there officially ws an NX ROUTE which was a 42 st - coney island super express via bridge and sea beach returning via brighton exp.
It's on the R-44/46 electronic signs as 21st-WTC via 6th Av. There was a plan for that sometime before the Q was sent up 6th Av.
Often, while I'm waiting at 36th. Street in Brooklyn on weeknights, an out-of-service R (heading to layup) with pass by, with the electronic signage lsting it as an "X". There's always more than a few strange stares....
I have just returned from my visit to the Shoreline Trolley Museum and would like to personally thank Jeff H. for a most enjoyable day. He went out of his way to give my friend Mike & I a "behind the scenes" tour of both the subway and surface rolling stock. I am especially grateful for his assistance in climbing up in to the various subway cars through the motorman's entrance. I learned a lot today. Thanks again Jeff.
you're welcome!
How does this work?
For one thing, it works better than cable cars on drawbridges. All of Chicago's cable car lines that crossed the Chicago River did so in tunnels, La Salle Street, Washington Street, and between Jackson Blvd. and Van Buren Street.
There's a steel section that bridges the gap on some bridges. Lift and rotating bridges have pretty much a standard wire, but a bascule bridge may have a steel rail instead of a wire, because the wire would sag when vertical. I've never been close enough to see in detail, but it seems the main wire ends about 10' from the movaeable portion, there's a beam of some type, and then the bridge wire begins. Power is removed when the bridge is open by simply circuit breakers (essentially, once the bridge moves, it's unplugged)
-Hank
I know of a bridge where there is none: on the New Haven Line in the vicinity of Cos Cob. The wires on either side ascend and end at the part of the brdge that opens.
It would really suck if a train gets stuck on the bridge and a boat tries to get through...
... and the opposite occurs on NJT's North Jersey Coast Line at Oceanport Draw (MP 19.8) near Monmouth Park. The wire stays while the bridge moves! The wire is continuous across the swing deck plate girder span. Bridge openings are on call for the yacht club just up stream of the bridge. When the bridge is opened, the power has to be turned off in the event that the sail boat masts reach the wire. The rail line is fairly high at this point.
From my many observations on the New Haven line or the NEC you can either have a solid metal runner on the movable part, weights and pullies are used with constant tention wire or just the standard catenary on swing or lift bridges. At the ends there is usually a dual contact catenary break with a contact conductor that keeps the current flowing when the bridge is closed.
Now that there will finally be a 2nd Ave. subway, has there been any discussion as to which size cars will be used - the A-size (former IRT), or the larger B-size (former IND/BMT)?
I would hope for the B-size, as to use larger cars would seem more efficient. However, as I know there are some holes in the ground already from earlier attempts to build the line, I was wondering whether the item has already been decided.
On the other hand, since the line will start out as the "stubway," and the TA wants to use the existing express N/R tracks to continue it into Midtown, perhaps that would work in the favor of the B-size cars.
The above is just speculation. Anybody know anything for sure? Thanks.
They will be zero sized, as that is the chance that the Second Avenue Subway has for completion at this point.
Does anybody have any pictures of the tunnels that are finished?
Mark Feinman has a video entitled You Can't Get There From Here which includes a segment on the Second Avenue line tunnel in Chinatown. I've got some very bad slides of the station shell at 63rd and Lex that I think is slated to become part of the Stubway... they're too bad to scan though. I'm not sure if anyone here has pictures of the more northern segments.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Daily News published an article about those tunnels a few years ago, criticizing the MTA for spending millions every year to hold up holes in the ground. The front page of the early edition had a big picture of one of the tunnels. The later editions had the same picture, but it was shrunk down to about 1" x 1.5" and the headline was put in that little area above the title. If I find my copy I'll get a friend to scan up the picture.
To answer seriously, the plan is for B-size cars to be used. IRT/Paris/Market St.(Phila) size tunnels have been considered too narrow since the late 1910s.
the line has always been planned to B division specs. In fact,
during the second go-round (that being the 1970s, the first go-round
was in the 1950s when they tore down the els and planned the
2nd ave subway to replace them) there was talk about converting
the Lex to B division.
Any new line would be built to B division specs because of the extra capacity of wider, longer cars and the ability to branch it into the remaining system.
Remember, the R11, R44 and R46 fleets were all earmarked for the various Second Ave construction projects that never got built.
One section of the Second Ave. line WAS built and is running today. That would be the Chrystie St. connection, which was inteded to feed the new line, but was scaled back and fed into the underused Sixth Ave. line instead.
Pronounced "Shoe-ap", C.U.A.H.P. is Citizens United Against Heypaul.
First we propose that a straight-jacket be worn by heypaul whenever he is in public.
Second, his R-9 cab should be seized by the NYCT and added to the Transit Museum for all to enjoy (for a nominal fee of course). Further, if heypaul refuses to part with his cab, he too should be seized by the NYCT and also added to the museum collection, since he's also considered a relic of sorts...
Doug aka BMTman
I suggest adding Dave Pirmann to the
NYTMuseum Collection since he gave us
all a "glass slipper" in the sense
of http://www.nycsubway.org
1SF9
strange forces are at work here at subtalk... it seems my staunch ally doug has created chuap, an organization dedicated to taking away my pride and joy... i sense the machinations of my arch enemy, professor moriarity, who posts here under another name... if an attempt is made to remove my motorman's cab from its safe haven, i will take countermeasures... i am in possession of nikola tesla's electromechanical resonance tool of destruction... no building in new york city above 4 stories will be safe ...
i would recommend you redirect cuahp's energies into citizens united against hateful people...
The deeds of Professor Moriarity not withstanding, I was unable to convince the Rev. Al Sharpton to rally his troups for a "Day of Outrage" against the press coverage that heypaul continues to receive.
Rev. Al told me over the phone that he wouldn't attack heypaul due to the fact that he considered anyone with a mental illness as a minority among the masses and thusly refused my offer. (I can't even bribe Rev. Al with a three chicken dinner at Boston Market! What's the world coming to?!)
This means that all of C.U.A.H.P.'s members (that's the five of us throughout the tri-state area), will have to take measures into our own hands.
Doug aka BMTman
You forgot to throw in a nice slant R-40 Brighton express run.:-)
You were a little cheap with you meger bribe attempt. If you wish to succede in the future throw in a bottle of hot sauce and two bisquits.
avid
>>>(I can't even bribe Rev. Al with a three chicken dinner at Boston Market! What's the world coming to)<<<
A biblical sign that the end is near, to be sure.
Peace,
ANDEE
I take several trains using both of these cars all the time. From this website, I know that ways to tell the difference between them include looking at the numbers, which lines they are on, and that they differ mechanically.
However, out of curiosity, is there a way tell whether a car is an R-44 or R-46 just by looking at it (w/o using the #'s), from either the outside or the inside?
Thanks.
The R-44 has a grey stripe below the waistline, the R-46 is clean steel.
The R-44 has glass panels in the "lean-on" area next to the doors, the R-46 no longer does.
Not all R44 have a painted section. Some MK rebuilds got a new stainless band, as did the R44 assigned to SIR. Also, not al of the partition glass has been removed.
Easy way to tell on the A cars is that the R44 cab has a swing door, woth 3 passenger seats directly behind the cab wall on both sides, while the R46 has a slider and 2 seats. Similar story on the R68/68A. The Amrail sets have swing doors on the #1 end cabs, while the Kawasakis have a slider.
-Hank
No, no, no!!! Just look at the doors. The R44 has rectangular
moldings at the top corners. Ther R46 is curved.
In addition, the door leading to the motorman’s cab on the R44’s is a good deal narrower than on the R46’s.
A bunch of other differences:
R-44 has steel panel in that 1" over the storm door, R-46 has fake wood paneling.
R-44 vapor key hole on the #2 end of the cars has round base, with one red and 2 green leds. R-46 vapor key hole is in rectangular panel.
R-44 Arm rests more boxy than R-46.
R-44 has loud assed brakes, R-46 brakes are quieter.
Most R-44s have an annoying ambient noise that can drive one insane in a quiet car while stopped in a tunnel, R-46 has no such noise.
R-44 fluorescent light side tracks have a small break in between each ad space, R-46 has no such break.
R-44s and R-46s have different speedometers.
Everyone else said the rest.
BTW: Hank, I have yet to see an R-46 with the partition glass still in place, and I have ridden these cars every single day since 1997, and about once a week since before then.
The original R-44 and R-46 speedometers were different. I remember seeing the original R-46 speedometers actually function.
The armrest is also different.
Wayne
You can also tell by the route marking on the train. All R-44s are on the A and Rockaway Shuttle. All R-46s are assigned to Jamaica Yard and operate on the E, F, G, and R lines.
The safety chain on the R44 had the cover weled to the bar. The R46 the safety chain was kept behind a door.
Also the way the ribs on the side terminated differently. The R46 was rounded, where the R44 had no edge.
Interior differences:
(1) Armrests on R44's have sharper edges than the rounded R46.
(2) Access to the conductor's and TO's cab is through a narrow door which opens in, wheras the R46 has a larger door which slides open.
(3) The partitions by each door on the R44 still have the glass divider in them. These have been removed from all R46's during their 1990-91 GOH.
Exterior differences:
The R44's have a gray painted strip where the "blue" stripes on all MTA cars used to be. The R46 doesn't. However, the SIRT R44's also do not have this painted band.
Other differences:
(1) The R44 has a unique and very loud (like some serious flatulance) air braking sound. The R46 is quieter, indistinguishable from the R68.
(2) The R44 is also faster, IMO. The R46 gives a smoother ride. The R44's tend to be a bit herky jerky.
Outside, both cars appear identical. Mechanically, they're completely different and they cannot MU together.
Outside, both cars appear identical. Mechanically, they're completely different and they cannot MU together.
Actually, they are once again, now that both car classes have
been GOH'd, mechanically similar. They can't MU but that's
because of a couple of minor, silly differences.
Nah, the R68s sound nothing like the R46. On a nice clear day I can distinguish the following.
All Sound The Same
------------------
R40, R40M, R42, R68A
In A Class By Itself
--------------------
R32
R44
R46
R68
R110B
I rarely ride on the C Line so I've never actually listened closely to the sound of a R38. I almost never ride the A Division and lisen to the brakes.
I always liked the ascending "whooo-ooooo-ooooo" sound heard on the R-44s and especially the R-46s as they start from a dead stop.
The R38s as well as all R32s on the "C" sound just like the R40, R40m, R42 and R68.
I could be mistaken, but I believe the SIR R44s also sound similar to these car classes mentioned above. I know they definately don't sound like their twin R44s in the "A".
Oops, I almost forgot to take in the consideration of the R32 Phases. The Phase 1s run on the A/C/E Lines. The Phase 2s run on the E/N Lines. Come to think of it I have only rode the Phase 2 enough to listen to the brakes. I'll take your word for it. :-)
Actually, the brake components on the R-68 and R-46 are identical. Hence, I can hear no difference in the brake release.
I hear a difference. To me, the R46 sounds muffled.
If there is a difference, it is only due to the placement of the air brake manifold and both are NYAB. The J1.4-14 relay valve and the R magnet valve are interchangable, The air pressure settings are virtually identical. From under the cars, they sound identical. The only audible difference may be in the cab since one is a single handle NYAB controller while the other is a standard WABCO brake valve.
I agree with the previous poster. There is a slight but definite
difference in the brake release sounds between the R46 and R68 cars.
Were the R68 brake valves changed to WABCO during SMS?
The R-68 NYAB brake valves were replaced during SMS because of problems with the NYAB electric self lapper. The WABCO brake valves, used in the replacement, were salvaged from the linking of the R-62s - previously.
Car # 5721's brakes sound like a loud version of an R-68. The rest of the cars have normal brakes.
Cab doors,the 44s are small the 46s are large ,stripes in the side are painted white on the 44s,not there on the 46s. I know many others but i see that peöple are saying them from a brief look.I am in berlin right now so if you have any questions aboul the u-bahn ask now
The interior door indicator lights on an R46 are larger than those on the R44.
Also, if you notice, the air conditioning units at either end of each car are different. On the R44, you will see what looks like two huge panels going along the units. On the R46, you will see either 4 or five smaller panels going across the units.
Before the R-46 were GOH'ed I liked the whistling sound of it's brakes releasing.
Wayne
Yes. That were my second favorite sound, next to the R40/42 "Darth Vader" exhaling sound.
Anyone have .wav files of pre-GOH R46 and R40/42 brake release sounds?
Me too. That "ssssssssss" followed by the "whooooooooooo" which increased in pitch as the train gathered speed. It usually disappeared at about 15-20 mph.
In London, they just opened up the sparkling extension to the Jubilee line. Anyone know how London was able to pull this off while the 63rd St. connection and 2nd Ave. Line lags? Anything that we can learn from the Brits??????
Uh, it's not like they built the Jubilee line in a year. Ground broke for the Jubilee extension in December 1993 and it fully opened late last year after a number of delays and problems. You have to remember that for the most part the Jubilee line was new deep-tunnel construction thru a part of London that was largely derelict. It didn't require too much complex construction around an existing subway line which could never be fully shut down. That's of course minimizing the massive effort it took to build the Jubilee line but it took as long or longer than 63rd St.
I can't find a date for the groundbreaking for the 63rd Connector offhand but I'm pretty sure it was more recently than 1993...
-Dave
It seems to me that almost all subway sections take about 5 years to build. The 63 St. connector will take six years (not too bad for New York). The Jubilee line took 6 years too, and it is ten miles long and almost every station connects to another line. Philadelphia's Broad St. extension from Snyder Avenue to Pattison Avenue took almost exactly 5 years to build as did many of the DC Metro line sections, including the last Green line piece which started in 1996 and will be ready around New Years Day.
It started in 1994.
It's still not fine to compare it, the line crosses the Times FOUR THAMES. There is no way that the 63rd Street line can take one year longer, it is not as complex.
the line crosses the Times FOUR THAMES.
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
As I understand it, underground London is sand. Manhattan is bedrock. Second, London subway trains are narrower than the B division trains of New York.
London stands on nice easy clay. Tube tunnels are approx 12 feet diameter.
Simon
Swindon UK
If anyone remebers the frequent threads about the exact location of the sealed up underground connection between PATH and Penn Station. I, who had watched then seal it up, drew up a picture of it, but didn't know how to post it. Well, now, I've since discovered my own web space, and decided to use some of it for a limited time to show everyone where this passage is. The yellow lines were my suggestion as to how to incorporate the passage into the fare zone.
members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/33dstpassage.jpg
It is rotated sideways because on my computer, it would only be opened in the Internet Explorer window, which doesn't allow you to edit. On the computer I scanned it with, it opened with Adobe Photoshop, and I could rotate it, but when I saved it, it was a new file and didn't come out right. Go figure.
If they ever do the things they say they want to do:
1. New Penn Station
2. Metro North (along with Amtrak, NJT and the LIRR) to Penn
3. New Madison Square Garden, Stadium, w/grade separated walkway from Penn.
I hope they re-open this too.
You mean:
1) New Old Penn Station
2) Met N to big open pit that used to be GCT
3) New MSG built over GCT or some site in Hoboken
I didn't know that passage even existed. Why did they go and seal that up? That would be very useful.
High crime area, large dormitory for homeless people at night. Among other reasons.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree. I remember when it was open. Dim, Dirty, a place for the homeless and places to be mugged.
OK. But maybe they could have cleaned it up somehow without shoutting it down. I mean, there are long passageways on 14th St (between the 7th Ave IRT and the 14th St BMT/6th Ave IND) and at Times Square (between the 8th Ave IND and the 7th Ave/Flushing IRT's/Broadway BMT) These aren't too bad. What if they had put the 33rd St passageway into fare control? It could have been partitioned (I'm guessing) between subway and PATH fare control.
Another question: When was it shut down? I never knew it existed.
I wish I knew when it closed. I remember being very young and going through there for Gimbels & Macy's etc. I'm 50 years old (been on the 3rd Ave EL). I wish it were open today because I walk from Penn to 6th Avenue every day. It would be nice in the winter and it would be safer than crossing 7th Avenue in front of the Garden.
I think the longest underground passage that I know of is the one downtown that goes northward from the WTC E terminal to whatever street above the A & E lines. I'm sure someone reading this will have better answers.
It closed around the time Gimbels bit the dust, 15yrs or so.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its the same distance as 7th to 8th ave, Times Sq!
Would it have killed them to turn it into a tranfer for the 1-2-3-9, and upgrade the lighting? Or put it under PATH control, they seem to keep all their stuff modern, clean, and crime-free.
Anyway, that passage to the mall from the main mezzanine (the one that goes all the way up to 35st) seems juat as bad as your description, at times. When was this closed, I seem to remember seeing a sign pointing to a blank wall adverizing Penn Station back in the early 90s.
No problem. We'll just turn our monitors (or TV's if you have WebTV like me) sideways. By the way, I used to use the passageway all the time and never realized it was closed until I read it in SubTalk last year. I just thought I forgot where it was and couldn't find it. You probably saw me at the 33rd and 7th IRT station scratching my head saying "I just know the passageway was here".
Nice work, Eric!
You already did all the legwork, so don't sweat rotating the image.
Computer users can (I'm describing the process on a Mac) with the curser on the image, hold down the mouse button , a pop up window appears, do a "Save this Image As . . ." Save to the Documents folder.
Then open the saved image in Quicktime Picture Viewer (free) or Graphic Converter (shareware), and rotate the image left 90¡.
There it is!!
PC users can right click on the image, Save As a JPG file, and use MS Photo Editor or similar program to do the same.
This would explain why the 34th St. stop on the IND 6th Ave. line and the BMT Broadway Line is additionally labelled "Penn Station." I always thought it was a misnomer, or at least a stretch, since you have to go upstairs and outside to reach Penn from there. If you have a small suitcase and want to travel from the subway to Penn, this passageway sure would help. I wonder if they'll keep calling this stop "Penn Station" when they begin using the Farley building for the "New Old Penn Station," or whatever we'll end up calling it ("Senator Patrick Moynihan Railroad Station"?). It's yet another block farther away. (But I guess NJT & LIRR will still use the facility betw. 7th & 8th, while only Amtrak relocates to the GPO., which will allow the station names to continue to make some sense.)
I thought NJT was moving out of the existing facility (that's what the sign on the lower level says). Amtrak just put in that new departure board, trackside digital signs instead of the old flippers, and 2 waiting rooms, as well as a complete overhaul of the main station.
The rebuilding at the 31st end of the terminal is to give us NJT riders some relief from overcrowding for example additional stairways and escalators to our platforms. Compared to the LIRR we have very little access to our platforms. Presently we can only board on the west end. Everytime there was some remodeling the LIRR tried to squeeze in some new stairways for their riders. NJT put in more newstands. (just kidding)
The LIRR lost a staircase in the last remodeling. The Track 14-13 'B' (east) gate Amtrak one used to have a small opening to allow LIRR riders to go down. I used to enjoy using this stair to get from the lower to the upper level easily, and liked going down a hall marked "No Trespassing." When Amtrak put in the escalator, they sealed up the break. I noticed this when I walked down the white hallway, turned right, and ran into (literally) a blank wall. I just noticed that the white hallway now has a glass door with dark tinted windows at the main hall's entrance, I guess to prevent others from making the same mistake.
At least the Track 16 one (which is similar, but without the hospital white walls and enclosed passage) is still present, and the LIRR will do some great bitching if Amtrak tries to take that one away (track 15 is the 'Show off' track, notice how 2 of the 4 double deckers depart from that track, as if to show off to all the NJT and Amtrak riders).
I don't ever recall seeing "Penn Station" signs displayed anywhere at the 34th St. stations on 6th Ave. and Broadway. 7th and 8th Avenues, yes. Maybe I just plain missed them...
There are definitely signs within fare control and throughout the station directing you to Penn Station. These never made much sense to me since the Herald Sq. subway station hasn't had a physical connection to Penn Station since I've been in New York. My observation was that the 33rd St. passage provided more of a connection than having to go out to the street itself like we must now, even though the passage was outside fare control anyway.
Last Friday I was able to do a good deal of riding after my morning shift on WCBS. A few observations:
The J/Z line is sporting many trains with mixed R-40Ms/R-42s.
The Manhattan-bound, Manhattan-side portion of the Willy-B probably now has the greatest concentration of fixed signals anywhere in the system! In addtion to automatics/timers, there are blind stops, WDs, and many other interesting signs.
If you can hit Long Island City (LIRR) at 3:30 pm on a Friday, you'll be treated to a lot of activity. Besides The Cannonball loading, you'll have a train to Port Jefferson loading, and many other consists waiting their turn. Take the 3:32 to PJ for a great ride to Jamaica.
Due to a lot of construction around the system, it's easy to find work trains Friday night and Saturday. Just aim for the GO locations as shown on the NYCT Web site.
Took the 3:32 to Jamaica a couple of days ago. Very comfortable. Very empty. Nice smooth ride. Verrrry slow pulling out of LIC. Picked up speed after passing under the BQE. Stood still for 5 minutes west of Jamaica. Pulled into Jamaica two minutes late. Total running time 30 minutes. Cost $3.75.
Took the E train back to Queens Plaza. Not so comfortable. Not so smooth. Not very empty. Stopped at three stations along the way. Total running time 20 minutes. Cost $0.00 (w/ weekly metrocard).
Inquiring minds want to know: why does LIRR take 10 minutes longer than the subway for essentially the same trip, why did the train sit there for 5 minutes, why can't a virtually empty train get from its point of origin to its first stop on time?
When I took the 3:32 to Jamaica it too stopped for a few minutes outside of Jamaica. My suspicion is that it was waiting for platform space on Track 8, where nearly all diesel trains arrive.
As for why the LIRR train takes longer than the subway over a similar distance, well for one thing, the subway doesn't have grade crossings, nor does it have track running through populated area. MAS (maxium allowable speed) on the LIRR Lower Montalk branch is probably slower than the ~40mph that the subway can achieve. (TTPFKAMR46 - are you out there? What's MAS here?)
Good points about the MAS and grade crossings. (I still think there is no excuse for an off-peak train having to sit and wait for a platform assignment at Jamaica.)
Of course, MAS and grade crossings would also affect the line if it were converted into a "subway," unless major track work and grade separation projects were undertaken. So much for a quick, cheap, and easy source for a new subway line.
Sadly, the main line via Woodside is a faster way to go, though it is longer and more crowded. Of course it's still a diesel service since LIC doesn't have 3rd rail.
LIC does have third rail! Where do you think that afternoon HP departure for the Ronkonkoma line spends the day? Track 9 is the only passenger-accessible third rail track, however. But now that the platform has been lengthened to TWO CAR LENGTHS (wow, LIRR generosity for you), MU-s can open their doors at the platform!
Do you do much RR riding? Trains always go very slowly through mazes of switches. You'll see this in PENN, Newark, Jamaica, everywhere. Plus, the one (formerly 3) track bridge would probably collapse if anything went faster than 15MPH.
Did you buy your ticket at the Friday-Only wooden ticket office? If so, did you get an odd-looking version of the auditor's check (Brown, no MTA logo anywhere). Also, if you got your ticket there, did the date stamp say "Hunterspoint"? When I went last week, I got a brown hand-stamped ticket instead of the usual mass-produced pre-printed ticket. This was the first time I asked for a ticket to Jamaica and got an auditors check. Usually, the only way to get one of those is to ask for a ticket where neither source nor destination are in the same zone as the ticket office you're asking from.
Do you do much RR riding? Trains always go very slowly through mazes of switches. You'll see this in PENN, Newark, Jamaica, everywhere. Plus, the one (formerly 3) track bridge would probably collapse if anything went faster than 15MPH.
You're absolutely right that slow speed pulling out of a yard is to be expected because of the great number of switches. I wasn't trying to be critical, just descriptive.
Did you buy your ticket at the Friday-Only wooden ticket office? If so, did you get an odd-looking version of the auditor's check (Brown, no MTA logo anywhere). Also, if you got your ticket there, did the date stamp say "Hunterspoint"?
No, I bought the ticket on the train. (No surcharge since the ticket office was closed.) It was the usual conductor-issued ticket form (with all of the former Lower Montauk stations still appearing on the system map).
Hello all--
I've made some modifications to web-bbs to hopefully improve loading speed specifically of the message index (by caching the information). There might be some, uh, bugs, so if you see anything weird let me know.
-Dave
Thanks Dave for your continuing effort to improve this already great website. Hmm... for some reason the index and the individual messages are taking longer to load. It's probably my computer because it hasn't seen the Windows Startup Logo in a while.
Rebooted and just started up...
Dave, I'm using Internet Explorer 5.5. I'm using a AOL client to dial up. Once in a while I have the little Dial-Up Networking icon on my tray come up when I'm connected. Usually when I type in the Subtalk URL, IE starts looking for the site. The lights in the try icon are lit, indicating that the modem is transfering data with the host. After a while, IE looks like it keeps loading but the system tray icon light goes out and no data is being transfered. After a 15-30 second delay, the lights light up and the index comes up. When you click on an individual post, the post comes up as fast as the fastest pages. Now, with the new web-bbs, all the pages suffer the same problem as the index once did. This happens with Internet Explorer 4, 5, 5.01, 5.01 SP1, and 5.5. Whenever I check the board, The modem is idle. I have no other programs that are taking modem bandwidth. Thanks.
FYI: I've also noticed a marked increase in the amount of time it takes to load the message index page as well as the individual messages. I'm using a DSL connection from work right now, and SubTalk usually loaded almost instantaneously before. Now it takes about 15-30 seconds to get a response from the SubTalk server. Not complaining, just pointing out there may be a, uh, bug somewhere.
Keep up the good work,
-- David
Boston, MA
Well, you might be right but the server's been pretty heavily hit this morning (aftermath of being mentioned in the Times I suppose). The new version uses a single cache file to generate the message index rather than opening every single one of 5,000 messages each time to pull out the header info (subject, poster, date etc.). I have to believe that reading in all the information from one file at once has got to be faster than reading it from 5,000 files one at a time-- but perhaps today isn't a good experiment.
At 3:49 PM the new Index was not putting items in Thread order, if that's what is set in the preferences. Everything posted since the new version went into effect is stacked on one top of the other, not in thread order. Posts replying to Dave P.'s original post are not in thread order.
I'm also finding that the index is loading slower. Thought it was just me.
All right, I'll put back the old one and see what happens.
-Dave
Still running at the speed of molasses in January... must be the number of hits or else Bell Atlantic on your end. Individual posts are extremely slow too. I'm running from a cable modem and had Jr. check download speed on a site he frequents, that one's running at its usual speed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
> must be the number of hits or else Bell Atlantic on your end.
Like I said, the site is being very heavily hit.
Subtalk hasn't been running on the BA line in quite a while.
-Dave
Not sure if it's a change in the WebBBS script or a drop in the traffic, but the board seems to be running much faster now. (And I'm on my 56K connection from home right now as opposed to my DSL connection at work.) Thanks.
-- David
Boston, MA
Did you? Everything seems to be back the way it was on Sunday night. All messages were sorted by threads, which is how my settings have it.
Was this a case of "If it works, don't fix it"?
Yes, I put the old one back yesterday afternoon not long after I posted that I would. As soon as I fix the lack-of-thread bug I expect to have another try at the caching version.
We all remember recently when Stosel took on the LA Subway. Well on Friday I had the misfortune for watching him attack the post office. He pointed out how it was a monopoly, how much service sucked and how it was spending $ to sponsor a cycling team when cycling is a "europian" sport. He failed to mention that the USPS mat be slower, but it far cheeper than any other ways to ship and if a private co took over the mail. Any person not in a major market would probably be cut from affordable mail delivery. Its like he can turn any govermnent project that tries to help people or provide long run change and then ridicules it into public disfavour. If he was king of the world we'd probably have no government, no laws ad every family would have to fend for its self.
Maybe if I yell at my TV loud enough he will hear me..
In complaining about "wasting" money on cycling sponsorships, Stossel also ignores that the Postal Service turns a profit, and takes no money from the Treasury. Therefore, the Postal Service isn't wasting taxpayer money no matter WHAT it spends money on. If they want to give a gold medal to every mail carrier, so long as their books stay in the black, I don't give a d*mn! Besides, the Tour de France got full coverage on television here in the U.S., so sponsoring who turned out to be the winner was no more a waste of money than any other sponsorship or advertisement.
To make this relevant to SubTalk, this whole "advertising a government monopoly is a waste of taxpayer dollars" thing comes up ever so often on this board in terms of the MTA. Yes, the MTA and all the other transit agencies across the country have a monopoly on public transit. The Postal Service has a monopoly on "first class mail" (though NOT on parcels and express letters). So what?!? Both "monopolies" are almost wholly illusions: the transit authorities are in head-to-head competition with private automobiles and taxis, and for many written messages, people can send e-mails or faxes instead of using the Postal Service.
Not to mention the wealth of goodwill due to Lance Armstrong (who has now won 2 in a row!) being a cancer survivor on the team. He's a household name, and many americans know him as a person who beat cancer. That alone gets attention. Then he's got the USPS logo emblazoned on his chest. Look who's on TV!
-Hank
>>> In complaining about "wasting" money on cycling sponsorships, Stossel also ignores that the Postal Service turns a profit, and takes no money from the Treasury. <<<
John;
Actually his gripe was that the Postal Service is asking for an increase in rates, while sponsoring a team in the bicycle race. They are asking to take more money directly from us without going through the treasury.
He is doing the same sort of bitching that you see at shareholder meetings when a corporation makes a generous grant to something that does not immediately help the bottom line.
Tom
I too suggest that Mr Stosel is wrong to crticise the USPS. We have heard of nothing but the USPS for the last three weeks as followers of the Tour de France will know. How many of you also know that your team won the race with Lance Armstong coming home six minutes or so in front. He won the last but one stage(a time trail) with an average speed of 52km per hour whcih is the second fastest ever recorded. Your team is to be congratulated.
Simon
Swindon UK
(He failed to mention that the USPS mat be slower, but it far cheeper than any other ways to ship and if a private co took over the mail. Any person not in a major market would probably be cut from affordable mail delivery.)
Did he mention that the single stamp price is yet one more way that Big Government forces liberal, Democratic cities to subsidize conservative, Republican voting anti-Big Government rural areas? He is an ideologically consistent libertarian. If he didn't, you might e-mail him and suggest it.
I wish they could hear me when I yell at the TV/Radio/newspaper. Too bad that does not work.
Do you think that the Subway or commuter rail lines should offer first class service? Slected trains would have a car or 2 set appart for 1st class. In addition to paying the normal fare you would buy a monthly pass that would be checked at the door. Services could include:
Beverages
Newspapers
reserved seating (possibly)
much more personal room
power outlets
a railfan window
stock ticker
internet access
the first class capable trains could have a constant tracking system so the users could track it via their PDA or web capable cell phone. Using the same they could make revervations. The passes would be limited so that there would never be a need to replace too many regular cars w/ 1st class due to demand. With a limited supply the price could be quite high and could give the operator a revenue gain.
The NYC Subway: Another way to seperate the rich from their money.
Paris has "First Class" service in its subway, via a separate car on each subway train. The cars are nicer inside. But it has none of the amenities you describe. I think it would be a good idea. Having the subways be a place for people of all economic strata would be a good thing for everyone, even if the poor had to tolerate watching the rich buy themselves better conditions.
They have first class on the RER and other suburban/long distance lines but not on the Metro. They used to have it on the Metro as well but that's been gone for several years (at least 5...). From what I could tell all of the former first class cars have been converted to 2nd class.
-Dave
We had the same thing here for a couple of years, it was called The Train To The Plane. Its can be brought back and we'll tell you how.
avid
On thr Metro the First class car was always in the middle. Some years ago we had a package trip with First Class Metro thrown in. It was sad to note that although the car was shown as First Class it was no different from the Second, in fact everyone just piled in the same as now. I did not ask the tour operator for a refund,
Simon
Swindon UK
Then you misunderstood the value of a 1st class Metro ticket, which unfortunately no longer exists. Since it cost more but provided no actual extra physical amenities, what it got you is a ride in a less crowded car. You may not have realized just how crowded a Paris subway train can be.
On a Saturday morning, for example, Lines 4 and 12 are like the Lexington Avenue line in rush hours, except for the 1st class car, where it was just lightly crowded. Since tourists got 1st class access on there multi-day passes, it was great for people like me. Random inspections (and I was inspected once) kept the system relatively honest.
You could spot the 1st class car by the yellow stripe on the top and the different colors inside. The platform had a yellow stripe where the car would stop, too. Otherwise, there was no actual difference between the cars. The seats were still narrow and close together (because the French are not that large), and you still had to push down the seats to sit on them. You still had to pop the handle to open the door (before "open" buttons were used on the newest cars). And you still had to watch that seating sign for veterans, the elderly, and pregnant women. And the tone before the door closing still sounded like a broken child's horn.
(They have first class on the RER and other suburban/long distance lines but not on the Metro.)
The only way I see this working is to have a separate first-class system, with fare control between it and the regular subway. You couldn't have cross-platform transfers between the services, but you could have transfers within a station. This could be done in NYC if the Second Avenue were to be developed, and the BMT Broadway Line converted, to a first class system with a double fare.
Connections would have to be built to ensure the "Snobway" and B division had workable routing. On some lines, stations could be either subway or snobway, with a vote deterimining the service and skip-stop service separating the fares. Transfers could be allowed between the systems, with turnstiles apportioning the fare.
RIGHT !!!
I want a reserved seat on the number 4 Northbound from Bowling Green station at 5:09 to Grand Central. If my train arrives late or there is no seat, I ride free !!
There are so many things that can't be controlled, it couldn't be done. Some of them are
1 - Ticket/fare collection to make sure your entitled to it.
2 - Trains are late so that at 5:09 the train pulling in is realy the 4:54. Sorry you have to wait, pay an extra fare, or move to a regular car.
3 - ADA requirements
4 - Discrimination - poorer people won't be able to afford them.
5 - There are probably more but this is enough for now !!
Have a happy headache trying to work this out !!!!
"4 - Discrimination - poorer people won't be able to afford them."
Do you mean this is a legal barrier or a political one?
If you mean legal, that's not so. Income/economic class isn't one of the protected classifications under the Equal Protection clause, like race, religion, or sex. It's not illegal for the government to provide services in different classes or levels of service. Amtrak offers two classes (sleeper or Business class and coach) and it's government owned. The Postal Service charges $8 or more for an Express Overnight letter and $0.33 for a regular letter. There are extra-fare express buses in New York and other cities.
Poverty activists can squawk that they're going to sue the MTA for "discrimination" against the poor, and can even go so far as to actually start a lawsuit. But that says absolutely nothing about that suit having a leg to stand on: I could file a complaint suing the CIA, the KGB, and the Masons for ruining my marriage by brainwashing my wife, but the case wouldn't survive very long before a judge tossed it out.
>>> 4 - Discrimination - poorer people won't be able to afford them. <<<
Jay;
That is the whole purpose of having a multi-class system. If the MTA put a first class car on each rush hour train with a $15.00 fare, those willing to pay the extra would probably be able to find a seat at all times. No other amenities would be needed.
In Southern California there is a freeway with one toll lane in each direction (dubbed the Mercedes lane) with variable tolls depending on the time of day (and therefor the congestion in the free lanes). There was a mini scandal when the State wanted to widen the congested freeway and it was discovered that there was a contract with the people operating the toll lane which prevented any widening of the free lanes.
Tom
As I said you would have to buy monthly passes which would be checked at the door. At the normal faregate they would slide through like a normal monthly metrocard. A less than monthly pass could be availale for vip out of towners. The trains with a first class car would have something akin to UPS ground track and the 1st classer could reserve a seat or check the progress of his train from any internet connection. Each 1st class car would have an attendant and tipping would be encouraged.
Checked at the door w/o delaying service?
I will quarentee a least 1 fight a day when someone wants to get in a somewhat empty car and is told to 'Move along - you have to get in a different)packed car'.
Other things
1 - Any delays caused by the checking of tickets upon entry is not permissable.
2 - How many of these cars on a train? Will they always be in the same position? What happens when a train goes around the loop at BB or SF?
Every train having first class service can have a parlor car/RPO on each end of the train. The RPO section will separate the first class passengers from the riffraff in the rest of the train. With RPO sections, we can rip John Stossel for trashing the postal service and still be on topic.
First Class isn't a necessity but Railfan Class is. The front half of the first car has a railfan window, an audio station by station tour of the line, and pictures of the line from past and present instead of advertisements. Also, if you pass the test, you can get to drive the train.
you forgot about the floor drains
Floor drains? Why do we need those?
The floor drains keep the foam from getting too deep.
As neither BUDD, not StLouis Car survived the drought, we have fewer and different players. At the other end, the desire for 'bells and whistles' -- many of them nice but IMHO unnecessary (light up next station signs) the cars are ever more complex. So the horse designers are coming up with stranger and more complex camels at ferocious prices. The likelihood that ANYTHING that complex will perform perfectly on the "shakedown cruise" is zero. Maybe Bombardier is less competent--yet they built some of the PATH cars which seem to be rolling along. I, for one would be most interested in some further comments from the software engineer who posted briefly some weeks back.
What's a canel?
-Hank
A typo'd camel.
Or a hourse designed by a connittee.
Well, you can't say those cars are over the hump yet.:-)
Rim shot!!
Bombardier never made PATH cars, Kawasaki did.
NYC Subway Track Setup for Dekalb Av.
F________________________________ ____________________________________
F______________________________ _\____________________________________
\ \
\ \
\ \
BDQ_______________________________\__\________________________________
BDQ___________________________________\_______________________________
_____________________UNUSED SOUTH SIDE TRACKS_________________________
_____________________UNUSED SOUTH SIDE TRACKS_________________________
You'd want to tap off immediately after leaving DeKalb, possibly using the tunnel tracks as tie-ins. Once you get past Myrtle Ave., it's all uphill.
(You'd want to tap off immediately after leaving DeKalb, possibly using the tunnel tracks as tie-ins. Once you get past Myrtle
Ave., it's all uphill).
Even so, you might want to get away from the Gold Street Spaghetti before branching off.
Well I didn't know that and with trying to avoid heypaul's apartment. LOL
This version is identical to the 2/2000 version but showing the Wassaic Extension of Metro North. This version is English only.
When i got on the frist car of #2 line in Brooklyn & i went all the way to last stop at 242th St to see if the Bombardier R142 running but i didn't see it. Look like they have to reset back to 30th day again. Any one know what wrong with Bombardier R142???
Peace Out
David Justininao
PS: I saw at least 3 10 cars R142 inside the Barn at 180th St Yard & can't tell which is Bombardier or Kawasaki Cars.
David: I was out today too looking for the R-142. I found the Kawasaki one on the #6 but did not see the one on the #2.
Larry,RedbirdR33
i heard it had a breaking problem and is out to be fixed
I saw the R142 (6301-6310) at E180st sitting outside, the track adjacent to the shops. I believe in the shops were 6311-6320. There is a possibility the R-110a was also there.
Attention all MTA-NYCT workers! Here is a Bulletin Board for you. Transit Talk is geared for the Transit Worker and their special needs. Who better qualified to understand how you think and feel better than another Transit Worker? Use Transit Talk to say what's on your mind. Maybe you want to sound off about an aspect of your job that is eating away at you. Why hold it in? Maybe you have a question that needs answering concerning a rule or regulation, or equipment(breakdowns),etc. I'll do my best to reply since I have a wealth of knowledge working for Transit for almost 20 years. If I don't have an immediate answer to your question, I will do my best to obtain it.
Although our Message Board is mainly for the Transit Employee and their interests, all are welcome, of course. It is an open forum, so if you have any suggestions, please e-mail me or post a message on our board. Bob DiStefano
Your site is looking good. look for me posting under irt287328.
I hate those damn NEW cars that are going to replace my favorite
OLD cars. Those OLD cars were the best. They had character,
class. They were real workhorses. The NEW cars are ugly and
uninteresting. I'll bet they'll fall apart soon and then we'll
all wish we hadn't gotten rid of those OLD cars. We should keep
the OLD cars around and maybe just fix them up a bit instead of
bothering with these NEW car designs.
To what does the above hypothetical quotation pertain? Why, to
the replacement of the Hi-Vs with the redbirds, of course! Or
maybe the replacement of D types with R32s. Etc.
I invite older railfans (I'm not one of them) to comment on their
memories of these events. It is with almost complete transparency
that I am attempting to draw a parallel to the modern-day
R142 vs Redbird scenario. Isn't it ironic that railfans today
are lamenting the passage of the "redbirds"? Weren't they the
enemy?
Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: The pscyho-socio-
philosophical implications of railway equipment life cycles.
Discuss.
now jeff's doing shtick from saturday night live
...and on that topic, when was the last time Barbara Streisand rode on the subway? Sometime around 1962 when she was on her way to her Channel 5 gig with Mike Wallace? Discuss among youselves.
It is not wise to get me started on this subject because there are those who are tired of my extolling the "D" type Triplexes that went out with the wash in 1965, 11 years after I left New York. Those were things of beauty to me and I lament their passing everytime I get on line and read messages on particular cars, or, even worse, when I come to New York and see for myself. I will say this, though. I like the R-68's. I think they are a handsome car and they seem to run real well. I know the Redbird fans (are you hearing me Larry) are upset at their passing, but that is supposed to be progress. I would think that instead of getting new cars they would, instead, refurbish some of the stations and clean up the filthy tracks that pollute the system. A hefty fine and jail time to those who throw debris on the tracks would even raise a little money for that purpose. More importantly, it would send a clear message not to
despoil something that many of us are deeply attached to emotionally.
ANSWERING THE QUESTION TO THE TOPIC, THEY ARE OLD OUT DATED AND FALLING APART.THATS WHY they were great but everything has a life expectancy\\
Many people feel the Triplex was the best piece of subway equipment ever to ply the rails in New York. Those cars weren't retired; they were sent to slaughter while still in tip-top shape.
Along that vein, most people here know how I feel about the R-10s.
Technology becomes obsolete over time, and nothing lasts forever. Let's give the new cars a chance.
The MDBF for the R-68s has been very impressive of late.
The grief caused by the R44/46 begat the simpler, back to an earlier way R62. Better luck this time around [R142]
There was a post not too long which pinned (no pun intended) most of the R-44/R-46 problems on the couplers, specifically the electric portions.
AFAIK, the R-142s have Ohio Brass couplers, as do the R-44s and R-46s. There probably wasn't much choice, as the old reliable H-2-C coupler has been discontinued.
(To what does the above hypothetical quotation pertain? Why, to
the replacement of the Hi-Vs with the redbirds, of course! Or
maybe the replacement of D types with R32s. Etc. )
People were railing against the impact of "megastores" and trying to keep them out of New York...when Macy's and Gimbels opened. The same sort of people objecting to the replacement of good, honest blue collar manuacturing jobs by the service sector once complained of dehumanizing labor in the satanic mills replacing good, honest agricultural labor.
Have a frankenfood on me.
The subway is a mass transit system. Attracting and keeping users is the goal of the system.
Older equipment has it's charm and place, but the subfan is not the NYCT only users.
A common aspect of human nature is to resist change.
Another is to cling to what we started out with (I guess that's the same aspect). For example, a West Jersey Chapter (NRHS) member stood up in a meeting 20 or so years ago and announced that he didn't go ape over steam engines (chorus of boo's). His first love was the Baldwin VO1000's that pulled PRSL trains through his home town, Hammonton, when he was a kid.
Some of us cling desperately to what we love and some of us realize that progress is inevitable. Each group realizes that the other is silly.
Ambivalent Bob
my only comment is if the new cars were railfan window equipped instead of transverse cabs then the new could be tolerated !!!.............just a comment...( thank you )
Do you know any other songs? Just a comment
ok try this one ......""THE RED LINE SUBWAY IN LOS ANGELES @ has no side winddows you can open for fresh air & if the AC fails like it did on opening day YOU JUST BURN UP"" now everybody sing together !!!! a one and a two ... hit it ,,,....!!!!....
"Too Darn Hot" from Kiss Me Kate comes to mind.:-)
no....no....no....
you should have heard jazz singer ELLA sing that song "" its too darned hot ""
( the cd is in the jazz section )
07/26/2000
How about Sly & the Family Stone's "Hot fun in the summertime"?
Bill "Newkirk"
Guess you rang my bell. That was exactly how I felt as a teen in the 50's when the old IRT that I grew up on and loved starting vanishing.First the High-V's [right after my brief flirtation with the 3rd Ave el and MUDC's], Flivvers, finally Low-V's and Steinways. So I moved over to the IND for the R1-9. That lasted me until l977 and I left NYC that summer. I enjoyed my years of running R1-9 greatly, but still wish I had the chance to run the old IRT stuff.Yes, I hated all the R17 and onward for seeing what I loved replaced; the only ones that had a really long career are the present redbirds; but that was after a major rebuild program; the original stuff never had one (IRT anyway) that I know of. The R12,14,15,17,21,22 didn't shine at all, but at this point in life I have to give the R26-36 credit for being a pretty good, basic, durable piece of equipment. I learned nothing lasts forever, but it is excesses of technology and subsequent headaches that worry me.Thanks for throwing that twist in.. I was there and remember how I felt.
as long as the keep....
( you know ) ...say it again in large caps..........
"" THE RAILFAN WINDOW""
then I wont complain.....!!
Well, I'm disappointed at the responses to this post. I expected
the SubTalk message index to overflow with wails of grief over
the Redbird's pending demise, but instead the posts were, for
the most part, restrained, mature and reflective, and in my quest
for the Ob:railfanwindow post I was not let down.
I think some posters expressed some excellent points. Remember,
subway cars exist to move passengers efficiently, safely, economically. Every car class has its ups and downs, and eventually
its time must come. The replacements will have a different list
of pros and cons and sometimes Transit will order lemons. That's
life. Try and separate your personal, emotional attachment to
the familiar cars of today from your evaluations of the R-142s.
40 years ago railfans lamented the passing of the Hi-Vs and then
later the Lo-Vs to the IRT redbirds. Thankfully some had the
foresight to preserve examples of these car classes so future
generations (e.g. me) could experience them. So, support your
local railway museums and preservation groups!
Sure enough, at 11:02AM at 86th street, there was the R142. Everything went very smooth and everything was working, the train was freakin awesome. The LED sign and the overhead display was amazing! That 6 train schedule is very accurate!!!
Clayton
Neat...and what a surprise! The Bombardier R-142 train on the #6 line instead of the Kawasaki R-142A that's supposed to be there!
Memo to all: The Kawasaki R-142A is the train that's running on the #6 line. The Bombardier R-142 is the train that's supposed to be running on the #2 line but right now isn't running anywhere due to a brake problem.
David
I'd be very curious to see how the R-142s do on the express straightaway runs down 7th Ave. and Park Ave.
Oh and if you like straightaways, we've got 'em on the Southwest Corridor.
Mista M86 i was on R142 at 14th Street at 11:20am & this is my third time i rode R142a on #6 line last 3 weeks. The ride is very smooth & i like the LED too. So hope one day we can bump together in the R142a.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
I got back from New York yesterday, where I spent the whole weekend. This was my second time there, but this time was different because now I know pretty much eveything about the whole system thanks to this web site.
My friends, Kevin, Josh, and I arrived at the Delta terminal at LGA. We took the Q33 bus (only $1.00 fare) to 82nd St.-Jackson Heights on the (7). There, we bought our Metrocards and went up to the platform where we were treated to a work train passing by on the express tracks. The work train number was RD360, I think. We rode all the way to Times Sq. and had some good views of the city along the way. One of the things I liked that I remembered from my last trip was the lights going out in the car while going underground the Manhattan. At Times Sq., we transfered to the (1) train to go to Cordlandt St. While waiting at Times Sq., my friend Kevin made the sarcastic comment, "Wow, my nose has never been treated to so many smells at once. (Sniff) Ahhh, urine and popcorn." When an R-62 came in the station, my friends decided that the "Ghetto red cars were tight."
On the (1) train, the conductor announced the stations very clearly and friendly, I could tell he enjoyed his job. We got off at Cordlandt St. to go to the top of the World Trade Center. After spending some time there, we got back on the (1) and went to South Ferry to see the harbor and the Statue of Liberty. We didn't think it was worth taking a boat to it, however. South Ferry is the coolest station. I could see the abandoned inner loop with portals to the platform. The moving platform is cool to watch.
We got back on the (1) and took it to Chambers St. to transfer to the 2/3 to go to Atlantic Ave. We got on a (3). We transfered at Atlantic Ave. to a R-68 (B) to Coney Island. I saw some (R) trains laid up between 45th and 59 St. A G.O. was probably in effect because we went on the (N) line and after 59 St., we went express all the way down Sea Beach to Coney Island. That was a very pleasant suprise! The R-68 was living up to its Hippo nickname, though. The Sea Beach line is cool, I can see why Sea Beach Fred likes it. Too bad the express tracks aren't used there that often. We got to Stillwell Ave. and of course we ate at Nathan's. The hot dogs were good as hell, but I suspect if those exact same hot dogs were served anywhere else, they wouldn't be as famous- it probably has to do with the whole atmosphere of Coney Island. Fries and onion rings were good, but nothing to write home about. We walked along the boardwalk for a little bit and then went back to Stillwell Ave. station.
We boarded an R-38(?, train with rippled sides) (N) train and went local back to Manhattan to go to Canal St. We were in the conductor's car, and the C/R was friendly, talking to customers between stations. Yet another G.O. was in effect because somewhere after Pacific St., the (N) train ended up on the 6th Ave. line. I realized after 14 St. we were on the wrong line, going over the Manny B. didn't even clue me in. We transfered at 34 St.-Herald Sq. and got on a real (N) to Canal St. However, one stop before Canal St. the train sat in the station for like five minutes, the conductor said heypaul was on the tracks picking up unused batteries between the tracks. We said "screw it" and walked from Prince St. to Canal St. Along the way, we stopped at an Army surplus store and bought my only sovenir, a shirt that said "Police Headquarters" in the style of Dunkin Donuts. We walked around Canal St. and then got on a (6) to GCT.
At GCT we looked around and took some pictures and I was going to convince my friends to ride the (S), my favorite line, to Times Sq., but they decicded we should just walk there instead. I didn't mind too much, as the navigator for the trip, I could always find an excuse to ride it later.
After Times Sq., we rode the (S) and transfered to the 4/5 and went to Brooklyn Bridge. I was looking outside the car to see the abandoned Worth St. station and thanks to track work being done on the uptown express track, construction lights lit up the abandoned station very well. That was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Too bad that the Brookyn bridge station no longer has the abandoned local platforms there anymore. We got off and walked across the Brooklyn Bridge. In Brooklyn, we walked, hoping we would run into a subway station. A train was visible going over the Manny B., so started to go in that general direction. Somehow, we got to Jay St. and I'm like, let's just go down this road, and we ended up at 370 Jay St.
We got on an (F) there and took it to 34 St. Herald Sq. to see the Empire State Buliding. We just took a look in the lobby and then we walked south down 5 Ave. to the Flatiron Building (the orignal Flatiron Building is in Atlanta, BTW). My friends took a picture of me sitting on a cow, one of the billions all over the city. We got on the (N) at 23 St. and took it to Union Sq. and got on the (4) and took it to 86 St.
We passed by the Guggenheim Museum and walked in Central Park. It was about 9:00, so we deicided to look for a hotel for the night. We got on the M3 bus and took it to the Plaza. We figured that the Plaza would be a little out of our price range, so we got on the N/R and went to 28 St. We found a crappy hotel at 27th & Madision and got a room. We were going to take a 30 min. break and then go see the nightlife. That 30 min. turned out to be really long, because the next thing I remembered was that it was 8:00 am when we woke up. Oops. Hey, we've been up since 4:30 that morning, we were tired as hell.
We checked out and took the (N) Times Sq. and then took the (S) to GCT and we ate breakfast there. I drank the best OJ I've ever drank there. After that, we took the (7) to 5 Ave. and got on the (F) to Rockefeller Plaza. After that we took the (F) to B'way-Lafayette and got on the (6) and transfered to the (4) to Wall St. After that, we took the (4) back to GCT and then the (7) and took it to 74th-B'way and got on the Q33 back to LGA.
This trip was fun as hell, we did so much in a short amount of time. I think we spent most of our time on the subway, which I loved completely. This trip definitly won't be my last to New York.
Too bad you didn't get to see any of the "new" stations built in the 80s (63rd st and Archer Ave). Then again, there's almost nothing interesting around those areas.
Did you get caught at South Ferry in the last 5 cars, either willingly or accidentally? (I find it's always fun to play 'Count the tourists' while walking up, and warn them of their error.)
Did you get to hear a #5 train turn at South Ferry, and if so did you cover your ears? I never do, but I don't think that's very smart.
Curious though: With all that riding on the Lex and 7th ave lines, you didn't see or run into the R-142s? (then again, I think the #2's wasn't running.)
BTW: I've gone 60 hours without sleeping, why couldn't you?
I know about the last five cars at South Ferry, so I didn't get caught. Considering that I'm was just a tourist, people came up to me three times during the trip to ask for directions. I knew the answers for all of them off the top of my head. Things like, "Where does this train go?" "How many stops before times square?" "how do you use a metrocard?"
Didn't see any 142's, I wasn't really expecting to see them, but it would have been cool to.
I'm a tired college student, all I do is sleep. I sleep more than I'm awake. A nap for me is 4 hours long. Sleeping is a national pastime for me. I probably could stay awake for 60 hours, but why would I do that if I can sleep instead? :)
The N train back to Manhattan was a R32. R32s run on the C, E, and N with the occasional appearance on the G and R. R38s are on the A and C lines.
That conductor who mentioned heypaul must be a Subtalker.:-)
The outer local platforms at Brooklyn Bridge are still there; they've been walled off and cannot be seen from the island platforms. A few years ago, they were visible for a time during reconstruction. Chambers St. on the Nassau loop is right next door; you can see one of its pillars from the northern end of BB station.
Actually, the conductor didn't say a word why we were stopped. If he did, I wasn't listening.
I didn't know about Chambers St. Looking at the track maps, I thought it was in a different tunnel.
" When an R-62 came in the station, my friends decided that the "Ghetto red cars were tight."
I was on a Manhattan-bound 7 express train Monday morning, it was slow, hot, cramped, and very rough. How can they rate the 7 the best line in the system?
We rode the 7 train Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon. It wasn't crowded. We liked it because of how loud and rough it was, we don't get that sort of stuff in Atlanta, so we enjoyed it. I'm not saying we thought it was the best line in the system, they came to this conclusion after riding the (7) and were waiting for a (1), at that time, the (7) was the only line they rode, and they happened to like it.
"Atlanta Visitors Enjoy Ride on No. 7 Train"
Sounds like a NY Post headline for the next time John Rocker's in town :-)
>>South Ferry is the coolest station.
Thank You!!!!!
1. What's the significance of the cows?!?!
1SF9
Could it be a nod to Phil Rizzuto?:-)
It's a city-wide art project .. see www.cowparade.org
my father just sent me a clipping from the wall street journal that the 614 steam engine is up for auction in new jersey... i am entering into negotiations with the board of directors of my coop, as well as the city of new york...the engine is 16 ft high and 112 feet long... this will require me to purchase the apartment above me as well as the apartments across from me on both floors and i think i will have to buy air rights for about 40 feet over ocean avenue... once that is accomplished, i think i will have made my mark in this life....
Well, I guess if you can afford all those apartments and the air rights, the price of the locomotive is just pocket change :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nighty-night and sleep tight, residents of the apartment below "heypaul".
I thought the next phase for your apartment was the acquisition of an IND interlocking a la Jay Street. That would only require the clearing of apartments on your floor only.
It would be more merciful :-)
Congratulations, my friend for appearing in the Times. You have defined what it means to be a railfan. What does that make you, a lover of the arts (subways), and an admirer of history (the subway as it was)?
The people in Transit have a term for us: Rail Nuts. I am not a rail nut (rather, a railfan) even though I rant and rave like one with my never ending R-17 posts. Aren't rail nuts extremists? Is there such a thing as someone who goes too far for the ultimate thrill in this hobby? Is walking along the tracks in private property for a good picture a bad thing?
I do wonder about what makes railfans so bad in the eyes of agencies like NYCT. If lack of judgment is key, then they might be right dpending on the actions of the person(s) in question.
-Stef
A "RailNut" is a person belonging to a certain Massachusits railfan club called "The Railnuts". There is a railnuts web page and for the longest time they had a downlink from the big Conrail computer and most of the railfans in the northeast would get their train information from them.
If you live on an upper floor you have two choices:
1 - Rent a crane and move it through the wall of the building
2 - Have it delivered in pieces and spend the next 10 lifetimes putting it together. Boy would that be fun !!!
Better but all the apartments below you. You'll need a whole lot of bracing !!!
Why dosen't he just move to New Jersey and buy an old rail yard or shop facaility.
You are in luck, since the original auction date will be rescheduled! It was July 15, but postponed due to weather. Latest status at www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/614.html.
Any speculation who will be bidding on 614 besides Heypaul?
The 614 auction was held as scheduled, but was rescheduled to a later date because of insufficient bidding, which was caused, according to Rowland's spokespeople, by storms knocking out telephone service. Higher phoned-in bids had been anticipated.
The 614 auction was held as scheduled, but was rescheduled to a later date because of insufficient bidding, which was caused, according to Rowland's spokespeople, by storms knocking out telephone service. Higher phoned-in bids had been anticipated.
Somehow I doubt they'll get what they want. I'm not saying that $1 million isn't a fair bid - I'm not in a position to judge that - but they only got an offer of $200,000, so I don't think the telephone bidding would make enough of a difference. Let's face it, there isn't that much of a market for a steam locomotive that big. No tourist line can use it and the original owner isn't around any more so there's no corporation interested in it from a heritage perspective.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As if my last post wasn't long enough, here are some comments I have about the subway.
This was my second time in New York, but I rode a lot more of the subway this time than the first time. The first time I was there, I rode all the IRT lines and the N/R. This time around I finally got to ride the IND.
My friends, non railrans, thought the subway was great. One of them even said that Atlanta should have a subway as big as this. We also agreed that the Metrocard is a hundred times better than tokens.
They, as well as I, loved the screeching and loudness of the trains. MARTA just humms to a stop, while NYC squeals, a very beautiful sound. We thought the redbirds were the best cars because of the sounds it made.
The R-38 we took from Coney Island had the best A/C on any train we rode, it was nice and cold.
The IND mezzanines are big as everyone described here, they were the nicest looking stations.
What is the point of a 6th Ave. express? It practically stops at every station the local does in Manhattan.
My friend Kevin was suprised how clean the subway was. He had an image in his mind from the movies of what the subway looks like. He was impressed by the stations.
I got the Feb. 2000 version of The Map, I think my 1997 version is better. It explained the services by the time of day much better.
That's all I can think for now.
Are you sure about riding an R-38 from Coney Island? They're usually on the A and C lines and are the trains that only have the ridges going halfway up the outside of the car, and with the flat front ends, like those on the Redbirds. The R-32s are ridges all the way to the top with the flat front ends.
As for Sixth Ave., the IND builders didn't want people jumping off the locals onto the expresses as much as they did on the IRT and BMT, and as a result built few local stops in midtown. The Sixth Ave. line had no express run at all until 1968, when the connection between West Fourth and 34th Street was completed.
Yes, that's it, it was the R-32 I rode, I got confused and thought it was the R-38
>>
What is the point of a 6th Ave. express? It practically stops at every station the local does in Manhattan. <<
I realized that when I boarded a Queens-bound F at W 4th street. There was a D right across the platform and left the same time we did. When we got to 34th the D was pulling in. At 47-50, we actually beat the D!
Of course perhaps because the D was an R68 (Hippo) maybe it had a disadvantage.
You don't save much taking the 6th ave express. Perhaps that why IRT expresses in Manhattan seem to be more popular, because they are much faster. I took the west side IRT express from 34th to 96th and had a redbird 2 train and the local stations flew by.
Then I took a southbound number 3 from 96th to Park Place. That ride was even faster, the train was flying down the tracks, stations were a blur, damn was that a fast ride! I think that may be one of the fastest spots in the subway.
IRT expresses are indeed fast. We took a downtown Lex. Express, and we hauled ass. I was suprised by this after hearing about how backed up Lexington always is (probably because it was the weekend).
Too bad you weren't around when they had the High-V's and Low-V's on those routes. They were cannonballs. I still enjoy those lines, especially the West Side, but the first generation equipment there made me the irt man.
>>>IRT expresses are indeed fast<<<
It is my experience that IRT trains only seem faster, because of their smaller dimensions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your 1997 map was published by the NYCT division of the MTA. Also in 1997, the MTA (itself) for some reason put out a competing subway map (on the other side of its new map of the commuter trains and tunnels and bridges). Then is 1998, it told the NYCT to "bug off" and stop printing it great map. Now we have the MTA's okay map only. I guess the original map was too good, and no good deed goes unpunished.
Funny. The NYCT has its own print shop in LIC.
"The Map", which did not show subway service based on time was originally published in 1995 as the Regional Transit Map.
"The Map" has better colors, shows bus transfers and Staten Island.
I would be insulted and boycott the subway if the old (to paraphrase Peter Rosa) "World ends at the City Line or at the Narrows" map.
I was looking through the PATH section of this site, and noticed this picture:
Why don't they look like that any more, and when did they do the conversion? I remember at the 1990 Hoboken Festival my dad commented how they "made the seats on the old cars look like the new cars." I was about 6 at the time, and didn't have the same observational skills as I do now. I asked him about it, and even though he's been riding the PATH since the days of the Erie-Lackawanna RR, he cannot give me an exact year.
Also, the seats appear to be padded in the picture.
It is a shame that the seats were changed. PATCH (People Attempting to Cross Hudson) as I call it, made the change well before the latest cars came in. Perhaps 10 years. By the way, is there a PATCH roster posted anywhere?
The ride was more enjoyable with forward facin seats, but they figure they can get more standing, groping bodies into the cars this way.
Surprisingly the TA remodeled the Cortland St Station on the BMT and even re-installed the tile "Hudson Tubes" wall signs. How many people these days know what that means.
Joe C.
> By the way, is there a PATCH roster posted anywhere?
YAPUTTSHABS, or as I call it, Yet Another Person Unaware That This Site Has Anything But Subtalk... we have a full section on PATH including a roster.
The site's Table of Contents has a nice list of what's available on the site, not only just SubTalk.
The PATH lines are so crowded, they probably thought they had to do it. What gets me is, if they are so crowded (and they are, even on Saturday mornings and Sunday nights, anytime) why don't they just run more trains?? They are already incredibly long, but the frequency could easily be increased on weekends (of course, they would have to hire more motormen and conductors, and would wear the cars out faster). But they really are incredibly crowded.
The only trains I see as requiring more service (weekends) are the Journal Square and Newark trains. PATH already got rid of the weekend 33st-Hoboken-Journal Sq. combo train and split it, improving service. Sunday trains every 20 minutes to Newark is just too infrequent! If they don't want to add more trains, at least extend the 33st-JSQ train to Newark so the headways could be every 7-8 minutes.
The weekend trains to Hoboken aren't very crowded, and the WTC-Hoboken train could always have a few extra cars tacked on should the need arise.
Here's another "why don't they": Why don't they have afternoon express service? They have morning expresses to WTC, why not in the afternoon (from WTC, obviously)? I think I'll e-mail them that suggestion...
Last year I was a member of PATH's Customer Advisory Group and the PM express was raised by the group.
PATH's response was that the PM load is more spread out (They leave work at different times). The AM express question was also raised and PATH stated 3 is the right amount.
SOURCE OF ANSWERS: PATH's G/M and an Assistant Trainmaster(Sorry Train Dude- PATH still uses the title "Trainmaster")
Considering that there are so few stations on the PATH line, no express tracks, and some really slow-moving curves, I can't imagine that "express" service is especially useful.
Its useful because people going between those stops don't have to deal with the passengers getting on and off throughout the route, and transferring.
I think the morning express is a bad idea anyway. It just spaces out the time it takes for the next train to arrive. I live at Grove Street, and have used the PATH WTC-bound train almost every morning for nearly 7 years. It's getting worse.. and worse.. and worse. They've changed the schedules from what they used to be a couple of years ago where in the peak of the rush hour (8-9am) there were 2 WTC trains for every 1 JSQ-33 train; they're now 1:1 ratio which means 33rd St. trains go by with plenty (relatively speaking) of standing room and the WTC trains are completely hammered. I typically have to let 2-3 WTC trains bypass Grove before shoving my way in anyway (which really means I have to let 2-3 WTC's and the alternating 2-3 33rds go by - no longer is there ever a WTC behind a WTC or so it seems- except for the express-local pairs).
Sometimes the people boarding at Grove get snide comments from those already on, like "why don't you people just wait for the next one, can't you see how crowded it is"... I'm like, "look lady, this is the next one. and the next one after that, and the next one after that, so shut your pie hole and move to the end of the car..." :-)
-Dave
PATCH would most likely argue that they haven't the room for storage for more cars and that the situation doesn't warrant ordering them.
They can't possibly add cars to existing consists; some trains already stick out beyond the platforms. Therefore, the longitudinal seats. The answer to all ills!
Now, MetroNorth, which I'll call "Subway North" (have you seen them on weekends, especially New Haven line?), they add cars but should clearly increase the weekend frequency. The added cars are usually locked anyway. On the NH division, they add those stupid bar cars that have hardly ANY seating capacity. People actually sit, and lie, atop the bar!
Joe C.
Just got back from Australia, rode the trams in Melbourne, along with their Metro Rail System. Get this they have a train to Brighton Beach , yup Brighton Beach, 22 minutes South of the city. Train stops 150 metres from beach. They also have a West End Train. I will into more if anybody is interested. Up 36 hours now, if interested in Australia Trains just post. Sydney is very unusual. both rail system is both combo of local transit and suburbun rail. Sydney s trains are split level doubldeckers sort of like in GO Toronto, or Calif. all electric.
Hi #1 B-Bob,
Was in Australia in 1988; loved each minute of the 3 1/2 weeks I was there. Still reaping the benefits; I subscribed to a magazine called
TRANSIT AUSTRALIA and keep abreast on what's going on down there. The mag is alot like ROLLSIGN from the BSRA in Boston in that it covers ALL transit modes, buses to boats, and rail, of course. And it does it by state.
Glad U had a great time; I know the feeling.
Joe C.
Its running today !!!
Does anyone know how far into the 30 day clock it is ??
Enjoy the day !!!!
The R-142A restarted its 30-day countdown on Monday, July 17. Assuming it hasn't been restarted since then (I don't think it has), this is day #9.
David
Can't wait until more than one are running on the 6. My favorite part about these cars is the sound of the motors while accellerating and braking, to hear it best one must be outside the car while no other train is entering or leaving the station (which best be underground). With only one train, that's hard to do (I usually take it to an express stop, transfer, then wait for it again). Standing between cars just to hear the motors gets some strange looks.
i got to ride on the triplexes on sunday, unexpectedly due to a change in plans by thurston who had planned to go on the trip...
i joined the trip at the museum, as punctual dougie was delayed on the franklin shuttle...
i brought along my walkman tape recorder, and recorded the ride out to coney island as well as the ride back to 59th street... there was a lot of background noise from the passengers... however, i did catch 10 or 15 minutes worth of an air compressor chugging away continuously... actually smoke started pouring into the middle car of that unit, forcing them to cut out that compressor... once the train started moving, the smoke started going into the last car of the unit... for quite a while i was standing in the connecting passageway between two cars, and picked up a lot of creaking sounds from the joint and the trucks... on the way back, i went into the front car, and caught a lot of whistle blowing... at one point there may have been some workers on the tracks, because the train operator blow some really nice sustained double long blasts... and then he tooted his way through the stations to warn the people on the station...
the front window was down on the front storm door, and it was great riding with the wind blasting in your face as well as an occasional piece of the tunnel ceiling :-)...
several fellow subtalkers were on the trip... andee, mark feinman, mark w., doug, bill newkirk... i did my best to keep my distance from being seen with any of them in public...
one or two people recognized me from the picture in the times and told me that i look even weirder in person...
does anyone know about the train operator whose name is andy?... i have seen him operating these trips for many years... what is his regular job?
many thanks to thurston for his kindness in offering the triplex tickets to doug...
Which unit had the bad compressor?
6019b
Thanx.
[many thanks to thurston for his kindness in offering the triplex tickets to doug...]
You're quite welcome ! I was happy to see that they got put to good use.
BUT you forgot to mention that your ticket was for a child and that no one question you as you entered the train ! Guess it must have been the way you were dressed ?
Mr t__:^)
thurston... doug gave me the children's ticket, as he had been assured that they defined a child by his mental age... he told me to bring along a couple of my subtalk posts to establish my mental age as a child... actually i didn't have to show any of the posts, since the article in the sunday times proved my right to a child's ticket...
I had the following information regarding the roster numbers for the R-142 cars. R-142 6301-7210 blt by Kawasaki and R-142A 7211-7760 built be Bombardier. Yesterday I rode cars 7211-7720 and they had Kawasaki builders plate. Can someone please help me out with the correct numbers? Thanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, the R-142s are Bombardiers and the R-142As are the Kawasakis, so that's part of your problem right there.
R142 primary order 6301-6980 Bombardier
R142 option order 6981-7210 Bombardier
R142A primary order 7211-7610 Kawasaki
R142A option order 7611-7760 Kawasaki
BUT, Cars Number 7209 and 7210 are Kawasaki Boys!
Trevor Logan
Trevor: Many thanks. I find your bus site very useful also.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry!
Trevor
J Lee: That was the problem. I had the numbers right but the order switched. Thank you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Boston MBTA Type-8 trolleys have been pulled from service again. This article from yesterday's Boston Herald describes the problem -- and the finger pointing. While Breda contends that it is the MBTA's track that is the culprit, it should be noted that at least two of the derailments happened on level, tangent track -- and NONE of the 20+ year old Boeing LRVs nor 10+ year old Kinki Type-7s have decided to leave the rail!
During our "Boston T Party" I got some photos of the Type-8's and a close up of the center wheels ... will have to rush them to Dave for posting in the "Field Trip" section.
Re: older cars ... saw a older woman having trouble getting on a Green line trolley, so I understand why the Type-8's a needed, i.e. it was a LONG way up for her.
Mr t__:^)
The worst step I have ever seen is that on our Third Avenue 631. I often put a step box on the folding step to assist elderly men and women when they board that car.
Gerry-
All Third Avenue Railway cars were hard to get into. There were small two axle "stepless" cars for a while, but they disassembled and combined to make the original 100 series lightweights. Your 631's design is a patterned on those original lightweights. As a little kid, that first step was always a killer right off the street and then there was another long step up to the main car floor. That pole in the center of the doorway was very essential. It was tough for almost everyone. By the time the Third Avenue lines were bustituted, I was a young teenager and the steps were no longer a problem. For most passengers, though, they still were. The Bergen-Hudson cars may well be the first low step trolleys in the New York area since the Third Avenue stepless and other "Hobble Skirt" cars.
One of our "joint" members created a portable little step that we use on our 3rd Ave, and even more so, our ConnCo Suburban #775. We put it on the first step so folks with a problem can make it to the second.
Mr t__:^)
Breda seems to not be able to produce a low-floor LRV that doesn't have tracking problems. MUNI had had problems of the same nature with theirs, including a derailment where a Breda being pushed by another Breda had the center truck derail. The derailed car pushed itself sideways, severly damaging both cars. The usual finger-pointed started immediately, with Breda claiming it was MUNI's track that caused the derailment, while MUNI claims improper engineering.
I suspect that Breda used the same design in the Type-8 that they used for MUNI's cars. Once is an occurance. Twice is a problem. Three times is a major malfunction.
As I said in an earlier post, Perhaps MBTA should void the Breda contract and talk to Kinki about a low-floor model.
I asked Todd this question last Friday at ERANYD and I'll ask
it again for verification: Isn't the center truck of these Breda
units non-motorized?
We would have to ask "wheel rail interface expert" that Boston is gonna hire to find out the problem.
I have to look at our photos to see the trucks once more.
BTW, does Branford have a "wheel rail interface expert"??? (That is from the arcticle Todd posted the link for).
The center truck on a Type 8 uses crank (stub) axles and is indeed unpowered.
BTW, aren't Los Angeles' Red Line subway cars also built by Breda? They had a terrible problem with excessive wheel wear (when new) that was corrected by altering the grinding profile. I believe they were replacing wheels at about 12,000 miles when service started.
Those who do not learn from the errors of the past are doomed to repeat them.
The problems created by new technology in the Type 8s are forgiveable (such as the braking troubles) - but - those which are repeats of previous ones are not!
The LRVs were notorious for center truck derailments when new but these were almost always on curves or special work, and were due to the various forces imposed on the truck by the articulation joints and the 'outhouse'. The reworking of the articulation was one of the many design changes required for this car during its early years. The lessons learned were implemented in the Type 7 and it has performed well.
The Yype 8 has a brand new articulation, resulting from the need to go low floor. It requires the stub axles to allow the floor to extend through the center truck at its intended level, and this in turn introduced a bevy of engineering headaches relating to keeping the axles square and in gauge, suspension, and braking in addition to absorbing the forces imposed by the articulation.
At Seashore we have a car from the 1920s, which also regularly derails on straight, level, in-gauge track. It features a radial axial truck (Axles can move slightly in curves) and was designed and operated in ...
Italy
(though by Tabanelli not Breda)
It must be an Italian design standard, after all it's easy to derail on curves and special work but to do it on on straight, level, in-gauge track takes some effort. ...and to maintain that ability for eighty years...
Seriously, I expected some teething pains of this sort. I don't think the SF Breda cars are 'low floor', since they board from high platforms in the subway, thus they probably have 'normal' center trucks. A history of such derailments in that fleet, therefore, would not tend to indicate a relationship with the Boston Cars.
HELLO GERRY
What is the gage of Seashore's Italian car though? I heard from Karl Johnson that the Milan gage, for example, is about 10mm wider than standard (which I believe is 1435mm). Hence they proceed gingerly over facing point switches, but live with the situation......
Perhaps the problem is gage "on or about standard" or varying wheel profiles.....
CONRAD
I believe it is a wee bit wider than standard, which combined with the miniscule flanges certainly encourages its quirky behavior. My comment in the prior post was mostly intended to be humorous, though the performance of the Type 8 to date is no laughing matter. Hopefully Kinki will be there to do it right after all the dust settles.
Gerry
If they can't push a disabled car can they pull them?
Three truck cars rarely have the center truck powered but that is not relevant when pushing another car.
Were all the trucks on the blue birds powered? They were articulated trains werent they? Did they have problems pushing?
Yes, in fact, unless my data are wrong, all 4 of the trucks
of the 3-section Bluebird articulated PCC-like cars were powered.
So were all 6 of the trucks of the Multis (these had to be the
fastest NYC transit cars ever built, a shame that not one
was preserved). An exception was the D types which had 4 trucks
of which only the leading were powered.
However, the D's are so heavy that this isn't a big deal.
With light streetcars, having the pivot trucks unpowered,
and therefore lighter, means trouble. When the first half
of the unit enters a curve or a turnout and therefore
encounters greater track resistance, the rear half buffs against
the front and the resultant of the two forces at the pivot point
is normal to the track. In English, the rear half pushes the
light middle truck towards the outside of the curve. With
street railway sized flanges, this means the truck stands a good
chance of climbing out.
When you are pushing a dead unit the problem is exacerbated. Now
the buffing force at the pivot point is not just due to differential
track resistance but is, in fact, 50% of the total force
being applied to the unit. The thing is almost certain to derail
at the first sharp curve or turnout, especially if there is anything,
even a few pebbles, in the flangeway to help climb the wheel.
Fortunately, all open track curves in Boston have guard rails which helps counter some of this force. In the case of the stub axles on the Breda cars there is some interesting forces applued to the frame of the center truck since the forces would attempt to widen the gauge of the wheels.
Look out NYC as Breda also makes buses and are trying to sell them to the MTA :-(
Mr t
Nothing worse than a bus that constantly derails. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
[Nothing worse than a bus that constantly derails. :-) ]
Have you been hanging around heypaul again or is his brand of humor contagious ? ...|8-o
Mr t
Please - the implications of the VII conjures thoughts of derailments on the el structure. (Not a pleasant thought)!
Have you been hanging around heypaul again or is his brand of humor contagious?
Ack! Must be the dreaded Heypaul Disease... I guess they should have started spraying the city a bit sooner. :-)
It's too late for me, but you can still save yourselves!
-- David
Boston, MA
any efforts to stop the heypaul virus that attacks railfan's minds ( or what passes for a mind ) will be counterproductive as i have put live virus in the spray... instead of stopping the spread of the disease, it will spread even faster since it contains the "avid" strain for which there is no known cure..
That's why I invented the anti-railfan virus antidote.
It comes in bars (like soap) so it has to be applied while you are bathing. This means that a vast majority of ERA members will not be protected against the menace of heypaul's spray.
I now have a large supply of anti-viral bars available at the low introductory charge of $29.95. If you should order before midnight tonight, I will throw in a bound and autographed first edition of heypaul's most annoying posts on SubTalk.
Don't delay order your anti-viral soap bars TODAY!!
However, due to the diligent work of Drs. Fine and Howard the threat of heypaul virus is minimized. Also, railfans may protect themselves by riding Pullman PCC's at many locations in the US of A. Alternate protection may be found by also riding Hi and Lo V's at several repositories of superannuated rapid transit equipment.
OK. This has been discussed before. From Jamaica there is a little used branch to Long Island City (near the IRT Vernon-Jackson station) that runs through Richmond Hill, Glendale, Middle Village, and Maspeth. Though there is freight traffic, and the LIC station is used for storage of the disel fleet, this line is mostly unused. It's called the "Lower Montauk" branch, presumably becasue it's a place where diesel trains from Montauk could go west of Jamaica (though to my knowledge they don't curently.)
So it has been suggested that this could make a good subway line. Though it would take some work, it would have to be relatively cheap to convert considering how many miles of new subway would be added. The tracks are already in place!
Some things to consider:
1. It has to be electrified.
2. There has to be some kind of connection at the Long Is. City end of the line. If it's to be a new extension of an existing line, it wouldn't be quick to build (consider the one mile long 63rd St. Extension and how long that took!) And it would probably have to bypass the LIC station (since it is presumably needed as an LIRR yard.)
The nearest existing line is the 7. It would be perfect if this could be the route of, say, a number 8 IRT to cut off from the 7. But unfortunately the Steinway tunnel is already overcrowded.
E and F riders might be pretty upset if they lost even part of their connection to the Queens Blvd line--BUT I think the 63rd St. line could easily carry the F, and thus free up some space on 53rd St for a new line-maybe the "P".
Perhaps it could be a new life for the Queens end of the G--but then it would presumably lose its connection to the Queens Blvd. line as the Court Square station is out of the way. You could establish a transfer to the 7.
Or of course there's probably room on the 60th St. tunnel, since it only carries the N ("Never") and R ("Rarely"). But by then we're talking about a noticeably longer connection than from Steinway, Brooklyn, or 53rd St.
In the meantime it could function as a stand-alone line (at least it could have a free tranfer to the 7 as well as the M and J further down). It's better than nothing.
3. Grade crossings would have to be eliminated. They're only acceptable as it is because the line has next-to-no usage.
4. Freight traffic. I have no idea what to do about that. I suppose it could travel via the LIRR main line durring off hours.
5. Stations would have to be built--with transfers to the 7, M, and J/Z.
6. The NIMBY's. I tend to think they wouldn't mind too badly though, since subway trains just aren't as noisy as the LIRR diesels. And because the service would actually bennefit their neighborhoods.
Any thoughts?
Lower Montauk is used, although not often.
It goes through the NY&A Fresh Pond Yard, which would be a rail-traffic problem if it were to be turned into a subway route.
The expense of converting to third rail and building stations would far outway any profits from revenue.
The NIMBY problem is always a factor to consider.
Doug aka BMTman
Congratulations. You have just pretty much described the MTA's 1970 Plan For Action, which called for the construction of the 63rd Street subway tunnel connecting with a "Super Express" route that would use the Lower Montauk line and presumably connect back into the current system about where they build the underground connector for the J/Z. That plan was NIMBYed to death, and the MTA ended up settling for the new 63rd Street link to the Queens Blvd. line, which doesn't do nearly as much as a fast connection from eastern Queens to Manhattan would have done.
that was the 80's plan, right after it was decided to scrap the Crosstown line tracks along the LIRR Mainline tracks to a new underground station at Continental ave. The LIRR didnt want the line construction tying up its line nor did they want to lose track cap.BUT LOW AND BEHOLD... theier about to do the same thing, while building the ''EAST SIDE/GRAND CENTRAL CONNECTION''?! When will it stop? mother?
Considering that when the LIRR stations were open the ridership could have been counted on the fingers of both hands I doubt such a line would be profitable at all. Are the buses going through those areas packed like sardines??
[Considering that when the LIRR stations were open the ridership could have been counted on the fingers of both hands I doubt such a line would be profitable at all. Are the buses going through those areas packed like sardines??]
While I agree that a subway conversion of the Lower Montauk wouldn't be a wise idea, the LIRR's lack of success is not one of the reasons why I think that way. LIRR service was nearly useless for decades at least. Except for Richmond Hill and Glendale, the stations (if you can call them that) were in middle-of-nowhere locations and service was minimal. Subway transfers at Long Island City required a fairly lengthy walk to the 7 at Vernon-Jackson, only to squeeze onto grossly overcrowded cars.
I believe it WOULD be a wise idea, especially because it would alleviate te overcrowding on the QB IND, and it would serve neighborhoods which have no subway service today. The reason these neighborhoods aren't clammoring for more mass transit is because they've gotten used to not having it. Build the line, and the demand WILL create itself. Glendale and Maspeth have been populated for years by older retired people/couples, or people who drive to/from work. A new subway would make these areas more desirable for working class people.
That's this reason that the NIMBY's killed this plan off. They don't want these kinds of people (minorities) in their neighborhoods. I'm loathed to use the race card, but it's unavoidable in this subject. Maspeth and Glendale are predomintly white.
You know something, you are right. I've come to the same conclusion a few years ago when the T.A. tried[or did they?] to use this right of way for 63rd/Queens Superexpress service to Jamica or Springfield Gardens. The NIMBY;S came out of the wood works for real!!!!!!! What made matters even worst, Senetor Alfonse DIMATO said the MTA would put a new subway throught there over his DEAD BODY!! IS that fighting for a worthy cause or what?
D'Amato was playing to his constintuacy (sp?), which is white ethnic types. He's also from suburbia, and if it aint money for the LIRR or Metro North, than it can't be spent.
A nice cheap solution to a severe problem, probably wouldn't have disturbed these NIMBY's at night or weekends; I had hoped they'd use it, really such a good idea; New Yorkers sometime strangle themselves with their own stubbornness. At least they could have given it a chance.
Chgeaper solution: LIRR buys four self-propelled diesel cars and runs a one-car shuttle from LIC to Jamaica and back every 15 minutes, making flag stops at Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, ect. along the way. Maybe even extend the run into SE Queens along the line (is it Atlantic or Montaulk that gets almost no service today. Charge the same as the subway off-peak, current fare peak.
Yes, the buses are packed, before and after school at Christ the King. Most kids prefer trains to buses, so if even the LIRR re-opened the line and had the trains stop at wooden staircases with station signs people would use it (not if it cost more than $2, though). The high fare killed the route.
Tie The Line Into The "G"
Well...do they?
Stop reading the post and answer my question!
I wasn't aware that they ever did.
-Dave
Well they ran on the PRR line from Newark to JSQ and that line had PL signals, was controled from PRR towers and had cab signaling. I would have thought that the FRA or at least the PRR would have mandated cab signaling.
The PRR-owned "K" cars (more correctly called "MP51" cars) had cab signalling, and would always have to be in the lead on trains to/from Newark.
Not sure which of the original PA-1's had cab signals, but I do remember seeing them; someone once mentioned that only certain ones had it installed to supplement the MP51/K fleet out to Newark.
What is the point of the 4th rail so widly used in Englande and some other transit systems. I thought a ground return was prefectly fine for the returning traction current. Are there any advantages for a 4th rail? What types of current runs in the 4th? Does a 4th rail return make contact with the 3rd rail safer?
I'm told the London Underground used the 4th rail approach to reduce electrolysis. The power rails are at -300VDC and +300VDC. No current is carried in the running rails.
You could also consider the conduit streetcar systems used in
Manhattan, Washington DC and Budapest to be examples of 4-rail
power distribution. The reason there was primarily avoidance
of ground-outs, but electrolysis was cited as a secondary reason.
Evan: you should know from electrolysis problems! :|
Simon Bills mentioned problems that the IRT had early on with
their track circuits. The IRT was the most advanced signalling
installation of its time. It utilized the brand-new AC vane
track relays. A few years earlier, the Boston elevated installed
signals but they used DC track circuits. Ouch!
If nothing else Lionel /Marx fans could almost authentically model London Transport; in addition there are many surface/embankment routes on that system so you could have a some-time freight and some-time Transport.Now to figure how to make models of their rolling stock!
There are some quite reasonable kits available, but for size reasons surface stock is much easier to model than tube stock.
Mike, as far as I am aware the 4th Rail in London is unique.
It is there to stop the return current leaking to ground through the running rails and causing damage to the surrounding structures. It also has the benefit of keeping the track circuits clean which is a problem the IRT had in the early days. The outer rail is nominally 600vdc the inner is the return.
Simon
Swindon UK
Liverpool (mersey tunnel) and Euston-Watford/Richmond services used to have 4 rails and dispensed with them painlessly. I suppose that LT lacks the small amount of funds to pay for the saving that removing the 4th rail would give.
I thought only the LT/BR common sections had 4 rails.
And in those section the running rails were connected to the return rail.
Or did they remove the 4th rail in the common sections, too?
I also remember the voltage being 630V for the LT and the two North London Lines.
The Southern Standard being 750V. Is it still like this?
Hi all,
A few years ago the ERA bulletin reproduced an older track map plan for the 2nd Ave subway. I redrew it last night by hand and thought you'd like to take a look:
The blue tracks and plaforms are already in use. The red tracks are just red to indicate they pass under the black tracks. The current word is that they may actually build the 125th St. to 63rd Street portion to tie in at Lex.
Overcrowding on the Upper East Side aside, this portion depends completely on the availability of the Manhattan Bridge south tracks, otherwise it is the least useful segment to actually build. The Broadway line has extra capacity for a 2nd Ave-63rd-Bway train-- but this is only logical with the south side of the bridge available. Otherwise there is no place to terminate it. City Hall lower level is a possibility but the southbound service from 63rd would have to merge at Canal and diverge again to the lower level (vice versa northbound).
Assuming the south side of the bridge is available, the least useful segment then becomes the portion south of 63rd St., which would allow the 63rd St. tunnel to serve another Manhattan destination and handle reroutes in case of problems on Broadway or 6th Ave. This isn't so important since the 63rd St. line already feeds into two trunk lines for reroute capability.
The south of Grand St. portion would provide a four-track Manhattan terminal for the B,D,Q in case of Manhattan Bridge failure. I'd suggest this portion be the first built in anticipation of further bridge closure. (It would also serve a high traffic corridor of business and tourists along Water St., the South St. Seaport, and South Ferry/Battery Park and provide an IND line further south than Broadway/Nassau).
With a little work on the Grand Street junction (i.e. by building a flying junction instead of the two flat crossovers) they could easily allow 6th Ave. trains to terminate at Whitehall, and Bronx/Queens 2nd Ave. trains to go over the bridge to Brooklyn without fouling each other's crossovers, although I suppose the cross-platform transfer at Grand serves the same purpose, just without the one-seat ride.
Discuss amongst yourselves. :)
-Dave
What strikes me is how few transfers there seem to be. There isn't even a 42nd St. station, so obviously there's no transfer to the 7 (though such a transfer would require building a station at 42nd and 2nd, and that might not be possible anyway) and not the best access to the UN. No 53rd St or 60th St stations so no transfers to the E,F,N, or R (which, again would require building new stations anyway.)
I'm not clear whether there's a tranfer there to the L at either 3rd or 1st Ave (is that what that is?)
Also-No express? Well, there aren't that many local stops.
Oh well. It's certainly better than nothing. I like that there's a branch off to/from Queens in there.
Andrew
I don't know if they planned a transfer to the L but presumably the pocket track is just for turning trains or whatever. Certainly not a track connection...
-Dave
As I've come to understand, from plans read early on, the route would have transfer to most east-west lines[N,R at Whitehall along with the #1,The Bway/Nassau complex at Pine st,the Brooklyn Bridge for J,M,Z,4,5,AND 6, and of course Grand st for B,D,Q lines.]Further uptown,the F and V[could happen]at Second/Houston,L at 14th, the 7 at 42nd and the new service from 63rd/Bway connection, and last, the Queens bound routing from 2ave to 63st to the Queens BLVD line or where ever they decide to send it. kame out
(The Broadway line has extra capacity for a 2nd Ave-63rd-Bway train-- but this is only logical with the south side of the bridge available. Otherwise there is no place to terminate it. City Hall lower level is a possibility but the southbound service from 63rd would have to merge at Canal and diverge again to the lower level (vice versa northbound).
I believe that is what the MTA's Canal Street Flip is designed to solve -- to get Upper East Side Manhattan and Queens (via transfer at 63rd and Lex) riders to Time square and Downtown quickly. These riders would no longer tranfer to the Lex at 51st and Lex.
(Assuming the south side of the bridge is available, the least useful segment then becomes the portion south of 63rd St.)
I think the idea is that some passengers to East Midtown -- both from Queens and Upper Manhattan -- would get off at 57th St, 48th St or 34th Street and walk east to their destination, rather than using the Lex. Lots of jobs there. There is also a substantial number of jobs in the hospitals complex along the river E. of 2nd Avenue and south of 34th Street. There is also substantial population in this corridor, but they would be forced to go far out of their way to get to Times Square (ie. up to 72nd or down to Grand, and double back). The much discussed Time Square Shuttle extension could solve this, if a station were added at 42nd St/U.N.
(The south of Grand St. portion would provide a four-track Manhattan terminal for the B,D,Q in case of Manhattan Bridge
failure. I'd suggest this portion be the first built in anticipation of further bridge closure).
I think that the Downtown end is the least useful, since the Nassau Street subway is under used (in terms of passengers, not trains). A significant amount of money could be saved by having the line run from Grand Street into the Nassau Street Subway, and freeing train capacity by routing some of the Willie B trains north onto 6th Avenue. I'd use the center track south of Chambers Street to create a grade-separated junction, and add a station at Chatham Square for those going to the Civic Center. Chambers St Station would then become under-used, but it could be used to expand the Transit Museum.
This money could be used to run a branch off from 14th Street to the Rutgers tunnel. With a Rutgers-DeKalb connection on the other side, at least one service from DeKalb could run up 2nd Avenue for a fast trip to East Midtown -- faster than the Lex. The two connections would give Brooklyn alternatives to the Manny B.
If you think these ideas have merit, you or someone else with the skills might try drawing it. Perhaps a "subtalkers Second Avenue Alternatives" section could be developed, which could be presented if ever the study of the line proceeds.
How about using another color such as green to denote existing tunnel segments?
As long as I brought up tunnel segments, I thought I'd throw this out in the open: I've heard two conflicting accounts on the E. 2nd St. to E. 9th St. portion. One is that this tunnel section was completed and subsequently filled back in due to instability or similar reason. The other says that utilities were relocated, but no tunnel work was started. Which is correct?
Also, do you suppose they would utilize the space in the existing 2nd Ave. station at Houston St?
The Sixth Ave. express tracks to the Manny B and the tracks coming from the Willie B rise up to cross over the Brooklyn-bound local tracks to Second Ave. and the Rutgers tunnel, while the Willie B-bound tracks remain on the same level and cross beneath the B/D tracks.
Since the tracks headed towards Grand Street are just below the surface and the F train is two levels down, any Second Ave. tunnel and Houston St. station would probably have been built at least three levels (40-45 feet) below the surface, and would have then risen up to meet the B/D tracks at Grand Street, after the Chrystie St. cutoff to Essex and the J/M/Z tracks at Delancey passed overhead.
I wonder if they'll be able to keep the number of stations that low.
Dave, you seem to be showing a small blue section on the connecting tracks coming to/from Queens from/to the SB 2nd ave line. Is there already something built there - a bellmouth I'd expect - to make it easier to tie in the 2nd Ave line?
Yes, there are bellmouths at that location. They are plainly visible from the front of a train.
Hey...
Back in HighSchool I did a Project on the 2ave Subway Route and here were the stop's as follow's
/L=Local /E=Express
:125th st /E
>103rd st /L
>86th st /L
>72nd st /L
>57th St /E
>51st-49th St's (UN) /L
>GrandCental East /E
>34th St Waterside /L
>14th st /L
>Houston /L
>Grand st /E
>CivicCenter/ParkRow (CityHall)/E
>Fulton-Water Sts (SeaPort)/E
>Pine St/E
>SouthFerry /E
-What do you Think? Rob
By definition transfer stops should be express--i.e. Houston and 14th (L) And as a former resident of Alphabet city there should be a local stop at 7th/St. Marks
I found it interesting how the line goes from 4 tracks down to 2 tracks at various locations for seemingly no reason. Why 4 tracks on 2 levels at Whitehall and Pine/Wall? Then 2 tracks until 14th, where it becomes 4 tracks for that station only. Back down to 2 tracks until 48th and 57th where it's 4 tracks again (note that you can only turn east if the train is on the northbound 2nd Avenue). 4 tracks at 72nd makes sense, since the 63rd St trains are being merged, and then back to 2 until 125th. But why 4 at 125th and then down to 2 north of there.
Chuck
(I found it interesting how the line goes from 4 tracks down to 2 tracks at various locations for seemingly no reason. Why 4
tracks on 2 levels at Whitehall and Pine/Wall?)
The plan was that new signals would allow 40 trains per hour, but you couldn't empty and turn that many on two tracks at Whitehall. So you have a two level terminal.
(Then 2 tracks until 14th, where it becomes 4 tracks for that station only).
The idea was probably to turn some trains around there in the middle tracks, in case there wasn't enough demand to the south. The extra tracks could also have been used to branch off to the Rutgers Tunnel.
(Back down to 2 tracks until 48th and 57th where it's 4 tracks again (note that you can only turn east if the train is on the northbound
2nd Avenue).
Depending on demand, they might have wanted the option to terminate trains at 48th Street also.
(4 tracks at 72nd makes sense, since the 63rd St trains are being merged, and then back to 2 until 125th.)
(But why 4 at 125th and then down to 2 north of there.)
Presumably to turn trains around again, assuming the Bronx would not need 40 tph. Ie. only some of the trains would continue north to the Bronx, while others would stop at 125th Street.
With all this trouble, they may as well have added an express track.
In addition to what Larry wrote, another reason for the two levels at Pine/Wall and Whitehall is for service separation. They could run a Bronx-bound and a Queens-bound service from different platforms rather than have the trains alternate quasi-randomly on a single platform. The same for the other four track stations near the merge/diverge. Queens bound trains would always be on one side and Bronx on the other. (Or Whitehall-bound and Brooklyn-bound via 63rd St if you were heading south.)
-Dave
There would only be 3 at 14th and 125th, obviously to terminate extra short turns.
As for the 4 tracks at 57th and 72nd, it's for mergers. If trains are approaching at the same time, the trains can enter on separate tracks so people exiting there don't have to wait uselessly or people can change across the platform for the first train to go.
Extending 4 tracks to 48 allows the train to enter what would be the busiest station without waiting at 57th for the other one.
The only reason I can think of having two tracks in EACH direction at these stations is symmetry.
I redrew it last night by hand and thought you'd like to take a look:
If that's your handwriting, I'm impressed.
Uh, by hand meaning "by Xpaint" and "not by scanner".
-Dave
I've been meaning to ask that. What kind of tools do you use to build such neat maps? I've been looking to draw some maps or a fake city I made up.
Is this the plan that was actually under construction in the 1970s or is this the model of the current thinking at the $1 billion/mile rate?
That's an undated older plan so I think it's probably the thinking of the 70s but there's no reason it shouldn't be built like that now (or go with the 4 tracks the whole way plan)...
The Regional Plan Association Metrolink plan suggests the full Second Avenue Subway plan should be 4 tracks now with a branch to Grand Central. Although I doubt anyone in Subtalk now will live long enough to see it or any kind of new subway south of 63rd Street.
Heypaul, thank you for annoying the SubTalkers for me. I had a wonderful time last week! Now....
As for the 2nd ave. subway not being built while we're alive...
I'll see it - I'm only 17 now.
Thank god they finally said 4. For awhile they were talking like it would only be a 2 track line with only express stops. Now how stupid would that be - local customers would still have to use the Lex (eeek!) along with all of the PBP riders who are too dumb to change to an express at 125th. My personal opinion is it should be four tracks the whole way too - but that the lower end would be connected to the Nassau tubes. In short the running (long-term) would be this:
Existing 4 local train in the Bronx would be a 2nd Ave. Express train (having been converted to BMT), using the 2nd Ave. Express tracks all the way to the Nassaus.
Third Ave. El would be rebuilt as a BMT, and would be the 2nd Ave. Local all the way to the Nassaus.
A third train, would run from 125th on the 2nd Ave. express to 63rd, then via the 63rd St. Tunnels to the Broadway Express tracks (where it would share with the Q). During rush hours this would be an express on the center track on the #4 - peak direction only, with the non-peak direction trains terminating at 125.
I'm pretty sure the diagram shows the plan proposed for construction until Mayor Beame pulled the plug in late 1974. The more recent MESA ("Stubway") proposal for 63rd Street to 125th Street would be fairly similar, except that 1) 72nd Street would be a two-track station, and 2) the 125th Street station would be a moved to 125th and Lexington and would be a two-track, island-platform station. This station would be to the east of, and below the level of, the existing IRT station. Also, the MTA wants a cross-over either just south or just north of 86th Street so that they would have the option of operating a two-station initial segment (72nd and 86th Streets). You could call that the stub of the stubway.
As for below 63rd Street, the MTA didn't do any planning for that in the MESA study, so that is still an open question.
The Pullman-Standard built ACMU's are still in operaton on Metro-North. At least one train set is active on the Hudson Line during peak hours covering train #720 which leaves Greystone at 714AM. This train actually originates at Harmon Yard and deadheads to Greystone.
More then one trainset is active on the Harlem Line during the peak hours. The easiest one to ride for sub-talkers might be #553 which leaves GCT at 426PM,makes a stop at 125 st then runs express to Mt Vernon West and then makes all stops to North White Plains. The normal consist is seven ACMU's. The total running time is 48 minutes and has a nice fast express run through The Bronx.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There are more trains than that. And they will be around a while longer--until the M-7's come in (whenever that may be)
So we might have some of the ex-NY Central MU's seeing their 40th birthday in service, and more?
My very first ride on Metro-North involved an ACMU. In the winter of '97, I had just begun to spread my railfanning wings to actual commuter rail (well, I had already done LIRR in April (Forest Hills to Jamaica), and NJ Transit and PATH (Hoboken to Paterson) in early July). I boarded an M-1 train and rode all the way to North White Plains. I allowed a local to leave while I explored the neighborhood. I returned to the station, when I saw an odd looking train approach (it was around 1:30 PM). I assumed it was an engine-hauled train, since I've never seen these before. I was amazed at the manual doors and the way phone cars and bathroom cars were not strategically placed (from back to front: 3 bathroom cars, a phone car, a regular car, another phone car, from back to front). I also found it weird that the seats were reversible, but in a way unfamiliar to me in some cars (it took me 5 minutes to figure out the flip ones, yet the car adjacent had sliding ones!). One car had red seats, the rest had blue, another thing of note. The ride was incredibly smooth, and it was nice and warm. We went local to Mount Vernon West, then express to 125 and Grand Central. The ride on that train through the winter snow gave it an almost magical quality, and I particularly enjoyed the part where the engineer gave 2 short honks while passing a few bicyclists who were racing the train at one point. I guess the best part was when entering Grand Central, the lights blinked out over every gap in the third rail, and I (sort of) realized it was an MU (I thought the cars were drawing power from the third rail and pulling the engine!). When I saw no engine at the end upon arrival at Grand Central, at was totally perplexed. I didn't truly understand it was an MU until my next ride, on the 4:20 PM out of North White Plains in the winter of '99. Both trains have since been replaced by standard Metropolitan Class trains, and at 4:16 you can see the former ACMU set for the 4:20 deadhead by.
Simon, or any other Brits or Europeans posting here:
I'm curious what your personal, yet reasoned, impression is of your country's attitude towards public transportation (as opposed to personal automobiles). Though the UK seems to me to be the most conservative of the western European nations, I still get the impression that a higher percentage of people use public transit there than do in the USA, and that more money finds its way to your rail systems. I realize, (or "realise," I guess :o) ), that much of your rail service has been privatized recently, with the government retaining ownership of rights of way and private companies providing the service (much the same arrangement, I suppose, that the private NY subway companies had with the city before unification in 1940).
I'm interested in your personal take on the phenomenon of European "excellence," if I may use the word, in public transportation.
If possible, I'd rather not have this thread degenerate into another string of political diatribes ("Bleeding heart European socialists" vs. "Fascist American Conservatives" etc.) I'm really interested in a European's impressions,.
Cheers!
KP
Urban transport is generally quite reasonable in the major connurbations (London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds-Bradford, Sheffield-Doncaster, Glasgow, Nottingham-Derby) with plenty of buses and at least some light and/or heavy rail at least six days a week. UK buses are slow because drivers have to take fares/check passes for everone who boards. Continental 'honesty' systems lose revenue, but the journeys are faster and so they attract more passengers.
Away from the major urban areas, forget it. I live in Colchester in the South of England (pop approx 50,000) and I am sure that the locals here would be happy to remove all public transport and turn everywhere into six lane motorways. In general, most Brits hate public transport and do not use it by choice, and are looking forward to they day that they can give it up forever. I still enjoy rail travel, but local buses are so awful that I was cured or enjoying bus rides a long time ago.
It's funny, but England is in many ways different from the rest of Europe. I know what you mean, the busses in England are so slow and crowded, it's impossible to ride. In many ways England is more like the US than it is the rest of Europe. The rail lines are unreliable, the queues for busses are incredibly long. The traffic is unbearable in many places.
In France and Germany, my experience is that people like trams, the busses are more comfortable, and many cities have bus lanes, bus-only traffic lights (with a special 20-meter area for the bus to pull into the right lane to cut through the traffic. The honor system works fairly well. I've used busses where the schedule for connections worked every day for me. The commuter trains run beautifully, on time, and usually right through the city, like the RER in Paris, the S-bahn through routes in Frankfurt, Munich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, etc.
In fact the biggest complaint I have heard is that too many cities are replacing street-level trams with underground tram and subway lines. They like having at least a few trams. Here is a strange cause of public outcry: In Frankfurt one line (U1/U2/U3) is in the center of the street with private ROW, and with high-platform stations that you could reach only by going underground then taking an escalator up to the center-of-the-street side platforms. People complained and now those underground tunnels are gone, and there are stairways at the ends of each platform for getting to the train/tram.
Max, I dont think it is as bad as you make out, I think given the choice people would rather drive, but like most towns and cities we can't all drive at the same time. This is where public tranport comes in. With money diverted to park and ride schemes, bus lanes , light rail (current spending initiative), and other rail services, I am sure attitudes will change. After all, the answer to a traffic jam is the jam itself.
I travel a fair bit by car but if the service was the equivelent of or better I would use public transport. I always use public transport in London and park and ride where I can.
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon, I am in favour of promoting public transport, but unfortunately, the dark forces are strong. Check out some of the road lobby web pages. These people are mad. The latest claim is that it is greener to take 50 kids to school in separate cars than to put them all on one bus.
Even when public transport is more convenient than a car, people still don't use it unless they really have to. During the rush hour, I can get into Colchester town centre door to door in 20 minutes by train, but this journey takes 30 minutes by car, and yet people still prefer the car. I suspect that most people prefer to have a personal seat in a traffic jam rather than use public transport, especially if they have to stand.
In Britain, unlike the US, we have no tradition for voting for specific local expenditure, but if we did, I am sure that the people of Colchester would vote to save five pounds a month if all transport subsidies were to be abolished, which would mean no public transport after 6:00 PM, probably very similar to the USA.
I think that we both agree that public transport has the potential to thrive in British cities and poor areas, but I think that elsewhere it is practically dead. If you removed all buses from, say, Lincolshire, Buckinghamshire, or Berkshire, few people would notice, fewer would care.
Thanks for your interest Keystone.
I would say that we are really a Public Transport minded society, with the belief that every part of this island should be accessable by publc transport. In reality we do not like to spend tax payers money to subsidise operators directly but do things by the "back door" by first privatising them and then handing out grants for so called un-economic services either through local or national goverment. We look to our continental neighbours and envy there TGV's and urban transport arrangements.
We are far more pro Public Transport then the USA and this is to be expected on such a small and crowded island, adn the more recent years have seen a decline in investment, but that is all about to change.
The goermant have recenlt announced a multi billion pound investment programme 70% of which is going into public transport. New tram schemes, new trains, even new lines have all been promised in the hope to reduce car use and improve the environment. We shall wait nd see. AS far as the Underground is concerned I do not think I think it is better than ever with all trains refurbished or new, clean safe stations, and video cameras every where, the main problem is overcrowding and little can be done about that without recourse to tearing it up and starting again or raising the fares. Public transport is expesive here compared with say France or the USA
In a nutshell we appreciate what public transport can and should do for the benefit of all.
Simon
Swindon UK
One item proposed by LT is a major expansion of the East London (orange) line both northwards and southwards from their current termini. Also the Docklands Light Rail is due to expand as well.
Don't know if any other LU lines are planned to expand.
wayne
Oh yeah, just go to London and tell someone they need to take the Orange Line, Wayne. :)
We *really* need to get you over there, soon!
-Dave
What I like best about the underground is the direct airport connection (Heathrow) to central London via the Piccadilly line. No such thing exists in New York. Also, I like the Piccadilly because it resembles the Brighton line of New York by being express and on embankment for much of its route.
You would also like the Metropolitan, express from Finchley to Moor Park (about 20 miles) all surface and up to 70mph. A bumpy ride when the cars are lightly loaded.
Simon
Swindon UK
You are most correct.
I took this run to and from "Steam on the Met" in 1999. Rode it out to Amersham-the end of the line - Zone D (London has zones 1- 6, but the Met goes so far out that it has additional zones A, B, C, D). National Rail also stops at this station if you want to continue your journey onwards.
The trains really get cracking on the straightaways, especially inbound.
Simon, I looked at the track map of the London underground and yes, when I visited London, I was tempted to ride on it. Your description encourages me to do this next time. Oh, was the surface section part of a railroad at one time and annexed to the underground?
Thanks.
--Harry
Yoqne'am, Israel
National railway companies were grouped by law in 1923 to make the GWR, LMS, SR and LNER. The Underground railways had merged by themselves by this time also to form their own group, the. the Metropolitan somehow managed to escape from any of this and remained independent until 1933 when London Transport was formed. It always had main-line aspirations, and was once part of a grand scheme to link France to the Midlands by Channel Tunnel and high speed rail. Still waiting for that.
Down to 50 mph last time I was there (frequent trips as my Father lives in Amersham). Apparently the ride was so bumpy that commuters complained. They probably objected to their heads hitting the ceiling:)
On Tuesday, August 1, at Baltimore City Hall (100 Holliday St., two block from the Charles Center Metro Station and 5 blocks from the light rail line), an open house (4:30 PM) and presentation (6:00 PM) will be made about the Magnetic Levitation train planned for the rail corridor between Baltimore and Washington. There was a very small notice in the Washington Post about it recently. The notice claims the train can go up to 240 mph. I intend to be there at the presentation. I just wish they'd run the Maryland commuter trains more than once an hour and more than only on weekdays, some lines only rush hours. If they can't provide that simple 50 mph service, what good is 240 mph service? Well, I will find out...
To me the best value for price is the Trenton local to NYC. I can drive the easy 150 miles from Washington, get on the train at an exit off I-295 in NJ, and for $13.50 round trip (+ $3/24-hours parking), ride in comfort for the hardest-to-drive 65 miles of the trip. (In comparison, a regular Amtrak train from DC->NYC is about $140 round trip.) I don't need 240 mph, I like the $13.50 price and wish that ride would be just a little faster than 70 minutes, but I don't need it to cost $50 and get me there in 15 minutes. And since 1/3 of the trip is inching from Newark to NYC, it could never go that fast anyway.
I doubt if it will ever be a reality. Maglev is still very experimental, and nowhere in the world is there a common carrier line in service. There was a proposal for a Maglev line in Pittsburgh, until one the major players in the US pulled out. It's pie in the sky.
Even the Japanese, who are not immune from very experimental stuff, have apparently shied away from Maglev.
Maglev is a dead end. The Germans can't sell Transrapid to anyone, the Japanese have not turned out a viable system yet.
Closer to home, my own experiments in levitating the front end of my Harley look promising* ;)
But seriously, Maglev has a lot of problems:
Crash safety (yes)
Power consumption (very high)
Superconducting technology (still not really here)
Existing system compatability (the killer issue)
Track switches (how?)
And other issues.
Don't hold your breath on it. IMHO, it's a dead end and anything spent on it is just less that can be spent on a "conventional" system that's nearly as good
BTW, the French, of all people, hold the record for fastest wheel on rail train - 300mph in one test a few years back. Which didn't damage the track at all, in contrast to the 50's vintage test to 200mph that did.
Of course, maglev is sexy, TGVs aren't really sexy, so congress goes off wasting more money on it, instead of simply grabbing the same off the shelf stuff everyone else has been useing for the last 30 or so years. This also explains the FRA and DOT's facination with the hopelessly impractical gas turbine locomotive...
*Better you DON'T know what I've been doing to my bike lately...
All that is needed between Balto & Wash(my birthplace) is extra main tracks along the B&O main, and more service at better speeds--look at mid 1950's tt's for inspiration.
Ain't gonna happen. There are several reasons why Maglev will NEVER come to the Baltimore-Washington corridor.
1. See Philip Nasadowski's post for the technical reasons.
2. There are NO available rights-of-way in Baltimore, Washington or in between. Amtrak/CSX ROW are out. Neither railroad wants Maglev anywhere on their ROWs. The B-W Parkway median is out, the Feds will not allow widening of the overburdened traffic lanes in their portion of the Parkway as they do not want to ruin the Parkway's vista. Maglev is out for same reason.
3. NIMBYs. Maglev uses high-power magnets to propel the vehicle. The very idea of high power mangetic fields will bring them out in droves.
Also, the Maglev ROW is all elevated. The construction will literally destroy anyplace it goes. We can't build light rail lines without bringing the NIMBYs out of the woodwork. Maglev should make that look like a kindergarten class.
Press conferences don't build things - money does. Maglev is so pie-in-the-sky that the money will never surface. Congress is not ready to commit millions to a totally unproven technology.
They're going to build a train that goes 240 mph between two cities 40 miles apart? That would mean an average travel time of about 12 minutes, given the time to get up to speed and slow down, which means the train would barely have time to reach its full speed before it would be time to bring it back down to prepare to stop.
Is this a MARC plan, something the Maryland politicians thought up or a federal brainstorm? I konw this is a bad day to make the comparison, but it's the equavalent of deciding to fly the Concorde on the New York-to-Washington shuttle route -- a waste of technology and financial resources.
[the train would barely have time to reach its full speed before it would be time to bring it back down to prepare to stop. ]
Actually one of the specialties of Maglev technology is that theoretically the train could be at maximum speed almost immediately and stop almost immediately.
In theory, even the subway could use Maglev technology.
I bet passengers will boom it if maglev is used in subway.
Also, I can just imagine the discomfort of decelerating from 240 mph to zero in a very short time.
Anyway, I agree with all the not-too-positive comments about the Maglev, which is why I'm going. I want to see how much of a boondoggle the FRA and MARC are going to present.
If they take questions, I may just ask why they don't run more reguarl trains on the current lines to see if that doesn't improve passenger usage. Why not lower the AMTRAK price and see if that doesn't increase usage? Even if this is meant to be a demonstration project, why can't they merely run at the speed and efficiency of 50 years ago? I'd be happy about that...
[If they take questions, I may just ask why they don't run more reguarl trains on the current lines to see if that doesn't improve
passenger usage. Why not lower the AMTRAK price and see if that doesn't increase usage? Even if this is meant to be a
demonstration project, why can't they merely run at the speed and efficiency of 50 years ago? I'd be happy about that... ]
Simple, Americans don't like to travel on trains. They like to travel on planes only.
Really? Then how do you explain that Amtrak carries twice as many pax between NYC and DC as the airlines?
The last time I took Amtrak from Philly to NYC (I usually drive to Hamilton and take NJT) I was appalled at the high price. Then I discovered that both trains (north Fri afternoon, south Sun afternoon) were SRO, and concluded that the pricing was appropriate.
I understand that taking Septa to Trenton and then NJT produces less sticker shock. Of course, while you don't always get what you pay for, you rarely get something for nothing.
NY-Philly via Amtrak: one way - $40 | Round Trip - $80 | Metroliner (one way) - $70.
NY-Philly via NJT+SEPTA: one way - $19.50 Round Trip - $24.50.
Travel Time via Amtrak: 1:30 | Metroliner: 1:15
Via NJT+SEPTA: 2:30
The other disadvantage besides, time (which isn't that bad) to the SEPTA+NJT trip is that the SEPTA train only runs once per hour usually, while the NJT train is about every half hour. I wish SEPTA would run more service to Trenton.
I once got screwed on this, on a weekend I missed the 7:3X because I was used to SEPTA connecting with the 8:11 on weekdays. I get to Trenton at around 9:30, no train! Also, NJTransit many times waits for late SEPTA connections, but one time the NJTransit was late and SEPTA left without us! The next train was really crowded, with people from 2 NJT Trains cramming in plus the PA riders. And they didn't even open the other 2 cars, if only to keep the Trenton-Center City riders separate from the people boarding/detraining at intermediate stations (where they can only use 2 cars).
They would probably need another conductor/trainperson to open another car.
Not if they only allowed people going from Trenton to Center City. They could use the first 2 for riders to/from intermediate points, and people boarding at center city. The last 2 cars would only need tickets checked once, and the doors would remain closed for all low platform stops, and at the high platform center city stops the doors could all be opened by one conductor. To keep people from boarding at center city, for those stops the conductor could open the doors from the vestibule between the extra cars and instruct people attempting to board to walk forward.
Regulations require the presence of another trainperson if another car is occupied, regardless of whether passengers get on or off.
About a year ago, around seven cities were competing in federal funds for a maglev line for one of the cities. Atlanta was one of them, and perhaps Baltimore was too. Did the article mention anything about competing cities? When you go to the open house, see if they don't talk about other cities with proposals for a maglev line. I haven't heard anything about maglevs in the US for about a year, I figured they gave up on it.
I think the federal grant is/was for $2 billion- probably enough for five miles of track!
Below the Bergen St. G/F subway platform is a tunnel that they are currently working on. Does anyone know why it is there and what purpose it serves.
Were there construction workers there? Bergen Street is 2 levels. The Upper Level is the Local and connects to Jay Street and Hoyt - Schermerhorn Streets. The Lower Level is the express tracks you see at Carroll, Smith - 9th, 4th Avenue, and 7th Avenue. The Lower Level connects only to Jay Street. A while back, there was a fire at the control tower controlling the switches north of Bergen and at 4th Avenue. The interlocking wes restored with the bare bones, IE enough for the G Trains to reverse at 4th Avenue and and the F Trains to switch off north of Bergen Street. The Bergen Street tracks between the express and local tracks are permanently set in place while the switchs to and from the G Line are movable. The 4th Avenue Interlocking has 3 movable switches. One to the express to reverse the G, and the others are for the G to run across to get back on the local tracks. The rest are permanently set. The work done is probably to get the interlockings fully working. This maybe in preperation of some future express service or the TA just want everything to work in case of an emergency.
Thanks. Yes workers were there. Sounds like they are chipping the walls or something. I did hear a train go through about 6 months ago.
When you see pallettes of white Agrob-Buchtal tile, along with light and dark green, you can be sure that renovation of the lower level is under way. If they're going to do THAT, they will have to build some new tablets but they've gotten VERY good at that lately, making accurate new ones for various station types and styles.
wayne
They seem to be working on the entire Culver
express tracks.Track workers can be seen from
Church ave. until Caroll st.
Well, read through the following...
http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/
Now, if you did, you'll understand what I'm about to type. Does anybody want to volunteer to make some NYC Subway cars and some tunnels?
Go to www.kuju.com. It is coming Spring 2001
A friend told me about their "Midtown Madness" program that is already out. Actually, I should be posting this at BusTalk, but in that MM program, you can drive an RTS bus through the city. From what the friend said, everything looks and sounds real.
Yes, Midtown Madness is based in Chicago.
Here are the screen shots.
http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=7252000-144042
So, MS is coming out with a train simulator. I can hardly wait for that!
A buddy of mine gets test versions of many of their products (he gave me a pre-release of Win 98 in December 97, and office 2000 in early 1999). Mayhaps I can get a preview of this game sometime this fall.
A very interesting screen shot of the BNSF Dash9 44CW cab interior. Very realistic. However the Knorr CCB-1 EBV (Electronic Brake Valve) has no handles in it (They are not removable) OOPS and the IFC display is blank. I wish somebody would make a game controller which resembles a reverser/combined power/brake handle and EBV
The Japanese game manufacturer TAITO makes a controller for their "Densha de GO!" (Let's go by Train!) series of train driving simulation games that consists of a mascon and brake handle. This is available for the SONY Playstation console. The mascon has 5 points of power and the brake valve (which is self lapping) has 8 service positions plus emergency. I doubt that this is useable on any other system however (unless someone would want to extensively modify it). If you are not familiar with the "Densha" games, you should really try to investigate them. They are excellent simulations of various electric traction trains (albeit Japanese) including Shinkansen (bullet trains) and even an elevated commuter train (Osaka Kanjyo Sen). The games ("Densha de GO!, "Densha de GO2!", Densha de GO! Professional" and "Densha de GO! Nagoya Railroad Collection" and controllers are available through various importers in the US. The Playstation has to be modified to run foreign games (through the installation of a "Mod Chip", but US TV color synch is the same as Japan. The games are somewhat bi-lingual ("Janglish") so a knowledge of Japanese helps, but isn't essential to play. There is some information about the games in the Transfer Station section of this web site.
In anticipation of the upcoming Republican Convention, Septa spit & polished some of the stations in South Philly. Now at least we'll have the trash picked up on the streets as the possible strike was
settled. I hope everyone likes the Broad St. Line!
Chuck Greene
The thing that really gets me about all this spiffing up the city is that the only thing that motivates the city to do anything remotely self-improving is when a large contingent of out-of-towners come here.
After they leave, the subways will be in disrepair, Chestnut St will get potholes that won't get repaved and Philly will go back to it's old, dingy self.
How are we gonna fill all those new hotel rooms? Do that many people stop and stay in Philly on their way to D.C. or NYC?
Well its a mixed bag. All the stairs have been painted. They vaccumed all the trash out of City Hall. New signs went up in City Hall station and all the signaling equipment was painted black. However in City Hall they painted the ceiling area white and got paint dust over everything including and newly painted signals. I was going to take pictures of them in their new black coats and now they look like shit. They also painted the stairways in the MFL stations blue.
I've read about Logan street in the Northern part of town.what's happening with that situation??
Logan is not a street, it's a neighborhood name where there used to be Reading Railroad station. It's at Broad and Lindley, I believe. What exactly is your question about it???
I went Railfanning today. I first rode The F Train(5946) from 179th all the way to Coney Island. Also then I rode a Northbound B from Stillwell to 59th street(5002). Then I rode an uptown 2 Train to 96
hoping to Catch the R142 on the 2. But according to a 2 Motorman, he says the 2 never made the 706 this morning. Anyway according to FDNY's schedule, there was a 6 going northbound from BB. I had to hurry up and get on the Southbound 2. Actually for some reason the R29's are faster than the R62's on the BWay 7th av express. Note the difference in speed on the 3 and 2. Anyway I rode 8921 downtown to the Shuttle at 42nd. From Times square to Grand Central. I almost missed it. Anyway the weird part is as soon as I said, I hope I don't miss it, IT APPEARED IN 42ND GOING NORTHBOUND. I was like Whoa!!!!! I really like the R142A's better!!!!
It seems you liked the schedule. FDNY gave me (and the rest of SubTalk) the information, but I did all the work. I want to put a counter on that page but haven't yet so I have yet to see how popular it is.
F Train:
It seemed like the R-142As are rather fast cars. How fast do you think it was going and if you remember what was the No. of the car that you were riding?
BMTJeff
they just feel that because they are new. common sense will tell you that the MTA will not run them at unmarked speeds for safety reasons.
Terrence (KHI)
have you rode the R-142?
The only time I ran that fast for a NEW train
was in 1992 with the r-110b on the 2 line.
Nevermore.
1SF9
That was before rapid transit became leisurely transit.
One very small point: the 2 runs R-33s, which is what 8921 is. The R-29s are 8000-series below 8806.
I don't get the NY times. So if anyone can give me a hyperlink I will appreciate it
Go to the home page of the site and go to recent transit articles.
I was with a Favorite Motorman I know from the F line. When I saw a B Train entering 47th street, it was lead by 2804. However, following that car, was Train 5014! What is this!!!!
The R68s and the R68As are sometimes run togetheron the B and the N Line. This is probably because a temporary shortage while trains are being inspected. It happens more than you think.
If the train was in revenue service, what you say is not possible. Unless 2804 is one of the Franklin Ave. Shuttle cars, all R-68s are linked into 4-car units. Hence, the next car would HAVE TO BE 2805. It could not be 5014. If 2804 is one of the Franklin Ave Shuttle cars, it would not be used in revenue service added to R-68As.
2804 is not one of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle cars. Those cars are 2916-2924 (9 cars). All other R-68s are in four-car units.
David
I know for sure that there is a train with a 4 car set of R-68s and another 4 car set of R-68As, but I'm not sure about the train you saw. Aren't R-68s and R-68As suppose to be linked into 4 car sets?
That train runs everyday and is usually on the N
line.There are 2 such pairs of mixed R68sand r68as.
I got on the Northbound 6 Train at 42nd Grand central today around 1:50. I got into the 3rd car and walked into the first. I met 2 other Railfans on the Train. One was Robert, and the other was Dave. Dave is the one posting the messages. I thought it was his father. However, I did meet his Father when the R142A pulled into Pelham bay Park.
We both post but use one name.
Hey guy's it's Robert from the Train this is my new handle.....
I went searching for the R142's on the 2. They weren't running. However the 6 Train R142A's where Running! Note this. The R62's and R142A's were built by Kawasaki and they are running side by side on the Lex lines! However the R110B is made by Bombardier, and so are the R142's. NOTE THE FACT THAT BOTH ARE OOS. OUT OF SERVICE!!!!!! BUT THE R142A'S ARE RUNNING! WELCOME TO THE MADD HATTERS TEA PARTY!
JUST LIKE A LAWYER WOULD SAY, I REST MY CASE, I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS!!!!!
WOO HOO F TRAIN, WELCOME TO THE KAWASAKI CLUB! J/K!
Trevor
Well I have a question for you. What about the R-110A that was built by Kawasaki? That hasn't run in revenue service for nearly a year. What conclusion can we draw here? Or there were 2 Kawasaki cars permanently destroyed at 14th Street while the Bombardier R-62As damaged on the 239th Street yard collision were not destroved. So by your convoluted reasoning, Bombardier cars are more crash-worthy than kawasaki cars. Hello - Is anyone home?????
Now you really can't compare that accident, the Bomb was rear ended basically, while the Kawasaki was split in two by some jackass operator at full throtle!
Trevor
[Now you really can't compare...]
And Mr. Dude is saying that that your caplocked titles express prematurely-drawn conclusions.
Bob
Thank you, Bob. I was beginning to believe that no one was getting it.
We got it. We got it.
Or 98% of us got it. Of course, that still leaves plenty of impatient yahoos jumping to conclusions before the data has been collected.
I'm afraid that responding to the remaining 2% is like sticking your finger in the dike. At this point my advice would be I-G-N-O-R-E.
however that doesn't play anything. the 110B could be out of service because of overhauling. every sixty thousand miles, trains get over hauled. the Bombardier R-142 is new and still needs improvements (even though it performs better than the kawasaki in service in terms of ride quality and materials to build it) and there is only one set of R110B to go around so, you can't compare the two cars with thousands that are running which have been around for fifteen and sixteen years and say bombardier is totally bad. Also, remember that there are a whole heap of Bombardier's running on the six, three and one/nine lines they hardly break down. maybe in the begining of their first runs but not anymore. the same thing will be with the R-142 (Bombarier) after working out the kinks, i bet you this set and future sets to come will not bomb out.
The No.6 is going to be a R142A Kawasaki Fleet not Bombardier. The No2+5 is getting the Bombardier.
however that doesn't play anything. the 110B could be out of service because of overhauling. every sixty thousand miles, trains get over hauled. the Bombardier R-142 is new and still needs improvements (even though it performs better than the kawasaki in service in terms of ride quality and materials to build it) and there is only one set of R110B to go around so, you can't compare the two cars with thousands that are running which have been around for fifteen and sixteen years and say bombardier is totally bad. Also, remember that there are a whole heap of Bombardier's running on the six, three and one/nine lines they hardly break down. maybe in the begining of their first runs but not anymore. the same thing will be with the R-142 (Bombarier) after working out the kinks, i bet you this set and future sets to come will not bomb out.
Terrence (KHI)
In the words of Mr. Logan,
"the krispy kreme at the Port Authority
is THA BOMB (KABOOM)!!"
1SF9
Nuff Said!
The proof is in the eatin'!
Trevor Logan
Yeah, the proof is in the eatin' alright!
Eat too many and there'll be *plenty* of proof!
That's just right sick!
Trevor
But oh, so true.
-Hank :)
Krispy Kreme has been down here in Virginia for decades. It's an amazing sign of the provinciality of New Yorkers that they glom onto it like it's their own once an outpost is established up there. :-)
Yes it's the V train ......yada yada yada. From a reliable source, beginning August 2001 the V train will run from 71st-Continental Ave. to 2nd Avenue via the 63rd St tunnel.
I KNEW IT!!!
I won't officially confirm or deny it because I'm really not allowed to. All I will say is that the route name has been selected and is quite obvious but the actually route has not been finalized.
-Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks:
A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I thought the V would run between 179th st and 2nd ave middays and rush hours it would run to Kings Hwy?
Nothing is running anywhere until the proposed service plan is given to the MTA Board, in October, and at least one public hearing is held to hear comments on it, in January.
David
As I said, I would be shocked if service was added in Brooklyn. This is the clear way to do the minimum.
07/25/2000
Re: The (V) Train.
Okay, let's say for argument sake there will, be a (V) Train. Where will the cars come from to run this service? Surplus equipment shifted with the arrival of R-143's ? Also, the (V) would replace the (G) being banished from Queens Blvd. forever?
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't think the R143's will arrive until perhaps 2002 since we haven't seen anything but a mockup yet. My guess is that they'll be either R46s or Slant R40s in service on the "V".
wayne
By that time will the North side (A/B) Manhattan bridge tracks be closed and will everything run down Broadway?
I think so. How else can trains get from Manhattan to BMT Southern Division? From Broadway, trains can go through the Montague Tunnel or the South side tracks of the Manny B. However, some trains may be split into two services, or service may be reduced.
R-143s will not arrive in time. Most likely the cars will come from 3 sources:
1) Smaller spare factors at all B division shops.
2)Surplus cars from curtailed service due to A/B track closure on the Manhattan Bridge.
3)Reduction of 2-3 trains due to truncating the G line.
That'd be nice. Spares from every B-Division Yard. The new car assignments for the V...
V Line - R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42, R44, R46, R68, R68A.
Are there NO R-27's or R-30s left? Even if there are a few of them left, why not put them on the Franklin Ave or Rockaway Shuttle, then put the cars from them into mainline service?
It won't be much, but it'll be something.
Okay, it's your choice to fry in the summer.
People did it for 70 years. What's so horrific about un AC'd cars?
I'd rather see more service with un AC'd cars then less without them.
Good point.
Just make sure that no two consecutive trains are un air conditioned during the summer if you have to put them in solid trains.
There is one in a Public High School, two in Concorse Yd., one in that yard near 9th ave (B,M), four at Coney Is (2 unusable), two in 207st. yard. WARNING: From personal observation. There may be more, and I may have counted the same set twice.
Of course, there's always the Triplexes, and they are in operating condition.
Yes, they are operable, but probably unable to withstand the rigors of daily service. I wouldn't put 6019 into daily service with that ceiling cracking like that!
As for the R27/30 - there PROBABLY are enough scattered about to put a train together. There is a questionable pair (#8292-3?) at CI yard, which is supposed to have a skewed frame. If they can fix this so that it is within tolerable limits, they can put a full train together. But it will be a tough sell with NO A/C and considerable expenses just to get these 40-year-olds roadworthy. Will they spring for a GOH on these cars? We think not.
wayne
With the G cut back to Court sq, the trains will not need 6 cars so about 26 A-A pairs will be freed (and one A-B), in addition to the cars saved from cut service.
Anyway, doesn't SIR have a few extra cars from when they cut the North Shore service?
07/26/2000
[Anyway, doesn't SIR have a few extra cars from when they cut the North Shore service? ]
WHAT! You're not talking about the old 1925 Standard Steel built MUE-1's are you?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think there are ANY of those left outside of museums. There used to be one or two sitting on the tracks west of the South Shore Expressway but I think they're gone.
Maybe we should get a small lot of retro cars built - simple machines like R32's, with a minimum of frills, maybe 100 max - so we can supplement service. In fact, why CAN'T we get reproduction cars of existing fleet vehicles? Aren't the blueprints/schematics/specs/bills of material somewhere?
wayne
It would cost millions to tool a factory up just to produce an already existing subway car. Remember, subway cars aren't mass-produced. They are contracted, then built.
Personally, I like the idea of a standard subway car for the entire subway system. The next B division car should be designed, then purchased at a rate of 100-200 a year for the next decade.
I think that should happen too. But, then we would never be able to experimant with new features. Take the redbirds. If the R62, R62A, R142, and R142A order was based on those, we wouldn't be riding in stainless steel cars that are virtually rust proof. We'd have rusty cars every 40-50 years. That's not good.
That's the
running on the
perspective.
Actually, considering how the auto industry has improved its vehicles, rustproofing carbon steel-bodied cars using the same methods would probably make them last longer today than their 35- to 40-year-old counterparts. It's just that they would still not last as long as the stainless steel bodies under the same conditions and with the extra expense of ordering paint, which the stainless steel cars don't need.
The North Shore service was cut a LONG time before the present cars were delivered... 18 years before the first of the current SIRT arrived at St. George, to be exact (passenger service on the North Shore ended in 1953, the current cars were delivered 1971-1973).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, after overlooking my post, and realizing the stupidity of what I said, I tried to think of what gave me the indication that service had ended in 1990.
Then, I remembered: http://www.nycsubway.org/us/sirt
Second line, first paragraph. I had not realized when I first read it that it means freight, but after re-reading the page I saw my error.
Precisely! That's where I went to check the exact date myself. (That's OK, one of these days you'll catch me with an equally off-the-wall answer, I'm sure.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also posted some of this on the "Can Queens Blvd handle 2 more trains" thread, but it was really in response to this post (didn't have time to find it last night)
Thinking about it realistically, the issue of car shortages has sunk in, and I guess ideas such as the V running to Brooklyn, are wishful thinking, at least for now. 2nd Av. is where they always said it would go. Church Av and beyond is our idea, as is additional service from Broadway.
Also, the South side closed scenario requires three more trains, not less (according to official plans), as limes are split and overlap in midtown. The first to go would be the uptown B to 34th. (That will leave the West End as the only "B", and therefore leave less justification for changing it into a "T" (I still think they should, but they definitely won't be bothered then)).
They'll probably just eliminate Concourse exp. or you may see the C go back to Bedford Pk and the A stop at 155th and 163rd.
Who knows, they may use this to try to pull off their draconian 1991 proposed cuts, with the A running local all the way, the C eliminated, and an H from the Rockaways to 34th. They were pressured to keep the A exp. for sentimental reasons, but now the need for cars for the Queens service would be good justification for curtailing it. ("Must have the cars for this new service; nothing else we can do")
The M may be cut back to Chambers rush hours;
Plus, there's the idea of the 6 car J trains, etc.
But wait! What about the closure of Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue? When is that scheduled to take effect? That'll free up a few trains from each of the lines. I seriously doubt that'll be enough when it reopens, Manhattan Bridge opens on the A/B and H Tracks. Although judging by the TA's track record, the A/B tracks won't open for a long while.
The only real solution for this problem is to build a tunnel to replace the Manhattan bridge tracks. The tunnel would be faster, and cheaper in the long run maintaining than the MB tracks.
It would be built much like 63rd street, with two tracks on the upper level and two on the lower.
I'd put B and D on one level and N and Q on the other. I know it costs alot of money but damn money is being spent and wasted on bridge track maint.
Can't we get anything done in America anymore?
Building a tunnel to replace the Manny B is an idea I have been pimping on Subtalk since the dawn of man. That, the Dekalb-Rutgers connection too. I know exactly where the cars will come from for the V: Run the M to Broad and only Broad (EVEN in rush hour). This Bay Pkwy stuff is stupid. No one rides the M from down there anyway, they take a B to DeKalb and then transfer to aviod having to hit all the 4th Ave. Local stops. As for the "draconian" 1991 plans - I think the MTA is smart enough not to try to use those. There comes a time when every agency thinks it needs to cut. The CTA wasn't stopped when they did that and now we have no A/B service on the Howard or the O'Hare lines.
Put some LIRR M-1s to that sleepy hollow called Staten Island, snatch there R/44s for the Real system and it gets you 60 or 50 cars.
50 cars @ 75ft long = 3750ft of cars.
60 cars @ 75ft long = 4500ft of cars.
4500 ft = 52.9 cars, give em 54 cars and call it even
3750 ft = 44.1 cars. give em 44 cars and call it even.
I don't care if the M-1s are to nice or to old, hosem down , put a Red Ribbon on them and do it. They'll love it.
Next ,put some M-1s on the shuttle service to Rock Park , it gets you eight more.
Last , slap some Green paint on a fist full of Redbirds, call em porrots, string four of together and grab those r/68s back.
Now you have seventy cars ! that could be 8 eight-car trains plus six spares.
Does that help?
avid
"Put some LIRR M-1s to that sleepy hollow called Staten Island, snatch there R/44s for the Real system and it gets you 60 or 50 cars."
Assuming that the M-1s are compatible with SIRT!!!!! Now what does the LIRR do about its car shortage?
"Next ,put some M-1s on the shuttle service to Rock Park , it gets you eight more."
Again - where is the LIRR going to come up with the extra cars?
"Last , slap some Green paint on a fist full of Redbirds, call em porrots, string four of together and grab those r/68s back."
Fiscally irresponsible and logistically impossible. Those R-27s/30s stored around the system are far from road-worthy. They have been vandalized, stripped and neglected. Parts to restore them are not available off the shelf. The cost of custom manufacturing of these parts would be prohibitive as would be the labor.
Some interesting thoughts but not practical.
Back to the drawing board
You are right, but perhaps some of the Arrow I or IIs turning surlus can have some life breathed into them for just a little longer for the S.I.R.T and Rock Park shuttles , The red birds may be free up from current stock as the 142s come on line and sufficent spares are stashed aside.
Never give up,
avid
that's kind of a good idea. I had always thought they should get M-class type cars for Staten Island, and set the 44's back to run with the rest. The SIRT should be able to be upgraded (cut back platforms, change voltage, etc.) But on the Rockaway, this wouldn't be good, because this would only be temporary, so all upgrades would have to be undone. It's not worth it just for 8 cars.
The MP-75s (when powered) were compatible with SIR, so the M-1 should be the same (maybe the change would have to be done literally overnight, if they have to up the voltage on the tracks). As for the Rockaway shuttle, the real problem is how to get them there!
Okay, so the M-1 is a bad idea (car shortage on LIRR), and I don't think trains that run on catenary can be easily converted to third rail (NJT Arrow IIs). What about engine-hauled trains? Throw a bunch of Shoreliner-Is from MNRR (who really has a surplus of cars, they're sending about 40 of them to NJT!), or the old LIRR coaches (the MP-75s return to SI after castration). Maybe throw in the C-1 set. For engines they could borrow from NJT, CSX, Amtrak, NY & A, or the LIRR.
The Rockaway S would recover 12 cars, they have 3 sets.
Sending to SI the old IRT cars is out of the question, even with platform extenders, because extensive work would have to be done to upgrade them to FRA standards.
BTW: Not sure of the MP-75 designation, but definitely in the 70s.
In addition to all the possible cutbacks, the V may not even go as far as 2nd Av! Just remembered the East River Crossing's plan called TSM-S (the no construction option for south side only open. This basically gives us the idea of how they plan to run service if the Rutgers connection is not built). With the uptown B eliminated, space is freed at 34th for the V to terminate there. (12 V + 8 D), even with this short service, 66 additionasl cars are said to be required. I'm not sure if it means additional to what we have now without 63rd open yet, or additional to what will be required when 63rd is open.
what are the "draconian 1991 plans"
I believe car shortages have kept the V cut back to 2nd Ave. If the entire R143 fleet is up and running, with no problems, then I'd say this line would get extended to Church and express service on the Culver IND restored.
My impression is that the V train will only exist as long as the Manhattan Bridge A & B tracks are closed. Once they are re-opened, the V will likely disappear in favor of the Q train which will operate from Brighton Beach to Continental Avenue.
Q via Broadway or Q via Sixth Ave. to Continental when the bridge reopens, TD? That 57th St. Station at Sixth Ave. is the pesky problem with eliminating the V, unless you want to keep the B/D/Q on Sixth Ave. and only have the N running on the south side of the Manny B.
If the MTA opts to do that, it seems like they would end up right back where they started from -- increasing the twisting problem they've been trying for years to overcome by having the two sides of the bridge continue to handle unbalanced loads.
Of course this is only speculation at this point. Personally, I'd like to see the Q operate via the H tracks, up the B'way line through 63rd Street. I think the F and Q via 6th Ave is too redundant.
I agree. It's just that 57th-6th Ave. station that messes everything up and virtually mandates two Sixth Ave. services. The only other option would be running both the F and Q though 63rd, cutting the 53rd St. tunnel back to just the E train.
The plus side is this would give the MTA the option of running either the F or the Q as an exrpess in Queens. The down side would be major, major complaints from people using the current F stations between Queens Plaza and Fifth Ave.-53rd St., since they would now have to go to Seventh Ave. and double back on the B or D.
When enough cars finally arrive for the B Division to give the MTA the option of reinstituting Jay St.-Church Ave. express service using either the V or the F having two Sixth Ave. lines would make a little more sense, but not if the V is going to terminate at Broadway/Lafayette, Grand Street or Second Ave.
Of course this is only speculation at this point. Personally, I'd like to see the Q operate via the H tracks, up the B'way line through 63rd Street. I think the F and Q via 6th Ave is too redundant. Unfortunately, I fear that OP will opt for the 6th Ave. route.
I would hope that your prediction, specifically on the Q terminating at 71st Av., would be incorrect. Remember, the 63rd St. tunnel was built to alleviate the delays on the Queens Blvd. express by connecting a by-pass line paralleling it through the 63rd St. tunnel. Since the by-pass was never built, the only remaining way of alleviating some of the delays is to reduce the number of stations handling 30 tph (71st Av. to 53rd/5th). The connector allows for a reduction from 6 to 2 (leaving only 71st and Roosevelt Av.) and that is only if some of the Queens Blvd. expresses run through 63rd. Thus, my suggestion that the Q run express through to Jamaica via 63rd, replacing half of the Fs. That leaves 21 tph from Queens Plaza to 53rd/5th (E, F) , with 9 tph through 63rd (Q).
Well whatever it is, I won't believe it till I see it. But it should be designated as the V train, because we don't need a fourth Shuttle train; three is more than enough.
Wouldn't it make more sense to terminate the new V line at Grand St, thus eliminating the need for a shuttle?
If there were switches in the vicinity of Grand St., then yes, it would.
It could use the switch north of Broadway Lafayette, using only one track thru that station and into Grand St. The 1986-88 shuttle to 57/6th did this.
But it will restrict the headways. The V is going to have alot more trains than the old shuttle to 57th
Terminate half of them at Broadway Lafayette during rush hours when headways less than 10 minutes would exist. The old 6th Ave. shuttle ran on a regular 10 minute headway with no problems using the switch north of Bway/Lafayette.
So is it that long until we see that 63rd St. connection open? Or will we start to see Q service on Queens Blvd sooner than that?
The connection won't open until 8/2001
Question from a transportation planner: aside from the couple of trains per day that still go there, does the LIRR still use the Hunterspoint Yard for anything? Freight? Train storage?
Let me know if you know for sure.
I rode the LIRR from LIC (I assume that that is the yard you are talking about) at 3:32p.m. a couple of days ago. No freight cars in evidence. Approx. 6 pax trains just sitting there. The yard has ten or 12 tracks IIRC, half of which were occupied. Nice place for a tunnel portal. I would trade half the yard tracks for another tunnel to Manhattan any day of the week.
Even trains that don't run from there are stored there (the ones that start at Hunterspoint). One weekend I went there and remembered that no trains run on weekends when I saw a completely empty yard.
I would like to know who of us will be on the trip on 8/27.
Reason: I have worked up an ID label (similar to those that say "Hello, My name is") with the Subtalk and www.nycsubway.org logos.
(Dave has given permission to use them. This way we can identify ourselves on the trip.
Note: Some had suggested ID labels (I forget who) a week or so ago but I have been thinking about this for a while.
These are of the adhesive type. If things work I will contemplate a more permanent type (pinback style with insertable card).
ANYWAY - I want to know who is going so that I can personalize the labels with your Subtalk Name.
- Please E-mail @ irt1904@aol.com. Be very specific as I will do it exactly as you indicate (I reserve the right to edit the name down if it is too long). If you want your real name - if you use a pseudonym on Subtalk- indicate that too and I will try to add that as well.
You can post it here as a response but AOL is having some problems getting to Subtalk so I might miss you. I will bring blank ones with me for those who don't respond and you will have to write you names in.
I will post this again about a week before the trip.
Allan
I am going. R22 Brian posted about the name tags a week ago, and I know he is going as well but is on a vacation right now, and cannot reach SubTalk to read this message.
I'm going and its my first Time going organized
railfanning.
I'll be there
The Station
Tucked away in our subconscious is an idyllic vision. We see ourselves on a long trip that spans the continent. We are traveling by train. Out our windows, we drink in the passing scene of the cars on nearby highways, of children waving at the crossing, of cattle grazing on a distant hillside, of smoke pouring from a power plant, of row upon row of corn and wheat, of flatlands and valleys, of mountains and rolling hillsides, of city skylines and village halls.
But uppermost in our minds is the final destination. On a certain day, at a certain hour, we will pull into the station. Bands will be playing and flags waving. Once we get there, so many wonderful dreams will come true, and the pieces of our lives will fit together like a completed jigsaw puzzle. How restlessly we pace the aisles, damning the minutes for loitering -- waiting, waiting, waiting for the station.
When we reach the station, that will be it, we cry!
When I'm 18!
When I buy a new 450 SL Mercedes-Benz!
When I put the last kid through college!
When I have paid off the mortgage!
When I get a promotion!
When I reach the age of retirement, I shall live happily ever after!
Sooner or later we must realize there is no station, no one place to arrive at once and for all. The true joy in life is the trip. The station is only a dream -- it outdistances us.
"Relish the moment" is a good motto. It isn't the burdens of today that drive men and women mad. It is the regrets over yesterday and the fear of tomorrow. For regrets and fear are twin thieves who rob us of today.
So stop pacing the aisles and counting the miles. Instead, climb more mountains, go barefoot more often, swim more rivers, warch more sunsets, laugh more, cry less. Life must be lived as we go along. The Station will come soon enough.
Portions Of A Writing ByRobert J. HastingsIf any one operated the R-142, or rode on one, you are invited to share your thoughts and opinions on Transit Talk, a bulletin board for Transit Workers. All are invited to view what others are already saying about the new cars. Add your opinion, pro or con, to this new forum. You can even leave a voice message, if you desire.
Here is a link to a railfan page featuring PCC Streetcars.
http://www.trainweb.org/kenrail/PCC.001.html
Joe,
As a member of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, what Baltimore paint scheme is Kenosha using? Our original scheme was beautiful, the later NCL yellow was Yecch!
I have seen the yellow from Baltimore, thats why we did the Cincinatti. (Not really. The San Fran. Baltimore look car is very sharp also)
Do you have color pictures of the original scheme? Kenosha car 4 will be delivered friday with a grey roof, orange sides and cream by the windows. It is in the Kenosha Trolley Bus colors and close to the Wiscosnin Gas and light streetcar colors that we ran here, and their parent company the TMER&L ran in Milwaukee.
Car five has not been selected yet but will likely be one of two possibles. If you have ideas let me see them soon.
Joe.
Joe, you can go to www.baltimoremd.com/streetcar, which is the Official Site of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, or elsewhere on nycsubway.org where Dave Pirmann has shots of our PCC, 7407, in the delivery scheme for the 1944 order. The shots of 7407 on our site came from Dave.
This week's edition of the Chief reports that the TA intends to hire new personnel to the position of Train Operator, Conductor, and Station Agent this fall based on the citywide administrative exams taken by many recently. As of yet, no hiring lists have been established, nor has anyone at the TA or DCAS said anything as to when the lists will be made available.
I personally am keeping my fingers crossed for the Train Operator's exam. It would be great to rub shoulders with SubTalk's finest, our knowledgable personnel who work for NYCT.
Comments on this post are welcome.
-Stef
As far as conductor is concerned, they are currently working on those who took the promotion to conductor test.
After they exhaust this list, they'll go to the open competitive list.
RUMOR has it that the first class of off-the-street TOs will be coming into the IRT in October.
What? Holy @#%^! What were we saying before?
-Stef
At the risque of off-topic,
What is the purpose of the cows
"strategically" placed about town
painted in more colors than an
r-142 interior??
The purpose beseats me.
1SF9
Art.
Art and more this link should answer your questions
ABOUT COW PARADE
Peace,
ANDEE
Two cows of interest (there are probably more)
1 - Outside the building at 1 New York Plaza (corner of Water and Whitehall Streets) is on covered with parts of a subway map
2 - Outside the stationmasters office at GCT is another one with the same colors as the metrocar but instead of "Metrocard" is says "Metrocow" and instead of "MTA" is says "MOO"
Have a nice day !!! (And stay dry if possible)
I've taken pictures of these cows and some others of interest:
Cow Friends Network (at Bridge & State Streets)
The Cash Cow (near Bowling Green Park, south of the big bull).
They will be uploaded along with the rest of the currently six pages of transit pictures on September 1, 2000. In the meantime, feel free to browse around the site. Recently added are:
•Transit Pictures 9A, an addendum to Transit Pictures 9
•Transit Pictures 10 Teaser Page, a small taste as to what will be coming September 1.
The URL is:
http://nav.to/rmmarrero.
Be forewarned. Pigs is going to post a spelling correction.
I wasn't gonna since I didn't notice the subject line (my TV window is in the way).
David J. Greenberger thought Pigs was going to point out that "segway" is spelled "segue", but had he done that, he probably would have been criticized for making another annoying spelling correction, to which he might have responded with a complaint about annoying complaints.
Bob
I think Cash Cow is the other CNBC-sponsored cow at the seaport-- the one at Bowling Green is Live Stock. The cow looks ridiculously small behind the bull.
I didn't know the name of the cow when I took its picture or when I put up the post. There was no small plaque on the concrete base.
Time to cue up I Wanna Be a Cow.:-)
*POOF*
You're a cow.
-Hank :)
I hope he enjoys eating grass and getting milked every day at the crack of dawn. LOL
From Cow Parade:
Unfortunately, not all the cows are up yet on the web. (A shame, since there are some with appealing titles. Two of the five cows in the Bronx are "Red Subway Car" and "Subway System Cow.") But this should give you an idea of what's out there.
Two pennies to anyone who can enlighten us
with the location (standing place?) of the
Red Subway Car Mooooo as mentioned previous.
1SF9
Westchester Square
You can keep your pennies.
A more specific location:
Once you get off the #6 train at the Westchester Square station, make a left turn at the bottom of the stairs at street level. The cow will be straight ahead.
I used a different way because I was coming from Flushing, after taking a picture of a cow called "Phases of the Moo." Q44 to Hugh Grant Circle. Bx4 to Westchester Square. Walk around the park to Westchester Avenue. The cow is there.
I used the reverse of the first set of directions to get to the #6 train.
A more specific location:
Once you get off the #6 train at the Westchester Square station, make a left turn at the bottom of the stairs at street level. The cow will be straight ahead.
I used a different way because I was coming from Flushing, after taking a picture of a cow called "Phases of the Moo." Q44 to Hugh Grant Circle. Bx4 to Westchester Square. Walk around the park to Westchester Avenue. The cow is there.
I used the reverse of the first set of directions to get to the #6 train.
You don't have the one from outside 1 New York Plaza (with the subway maps)
MOO must mean this one. Dave has it posted on this site.
NY PLAZA SUBWAY COW
Peace,
ANDEE
That's it !!
I only posted the ones I could find on the official Cow Parade web site.
Locations of those cows:
Metro Cow: Grand Central station, outside SM office
Cow Express: Cow Corral (230 Park Av, Helmsley Walk West)
MTA Cow: Madison Square Park, Madison Avenue side, by 24th Street.
Cattle Car: Washington Square Park, west side.
Red Subway Car: Westchester Av @ Westchester Sq, south of E Tremont Av.
Subway System Cow: Orchard Beach, near beach pavilion, not far from the bus terminal.
FYI, in Toronto, they use moose. Same concept.
Joe C.
Oh no. What happened? Somebody from MTA travel thru my town of New Salem, ND? With that silly cow monument on the hill? [In the Guiness book of records: world's largest cow.]Our transit (school busses) all have MOO + # on the license plates, never thought I'd see NYC using cows!
Actually, the Cow Parade in New York, West Orange, NJ, and Stamford, CT began two years ago in Zurich, Switzerland, then went to Chicago last year, and is in the NY area this year.
In the World Trade Center plaza, there are 2 cows, standing on their back legs,and their bodies have been replaced with the Twin Towers. Basically, they're 2 cow heads and 2 sets of cow hooves attached to skyscrapers.
Art? I don't quite get it.
What is there to get?
That's the "Twin Cowers" complete with transmitter on the north cow. Art or not my wife and I think they're a fun part of the city. She says that they are adorable and goes up to see the name plate on everyone we spot.
That's the "Twin Cowers" complete with transmitter on the north cow. Art or not my wife and I think they're a fun part of the city. She says that they are adorable and goes up to see the name plate on each that we spot.
One thing about this cow parade thing-I didn't think there could ever be so mooooo-ny cow puns!
-Hank (Pun intended, of course) :)
Transit COW! Pictures is now up on my web site.
http://nav.to/rmmarrero.
BTW, ignore the "Coming Soon" on the image map at the Transfer Point page. It's there already.
There's a cow that didn't make it: the R-One-Forty-MOO!
But there is a cow called "Cow Express." located at 230 Park Avenue. That could count as an R-One-Forty-MOO, although it looks more like an R-Thirty-MOO.
Now that Jeff H. has kindly enlightened us on some aspects of the IRT subway car High-voltage controllers, I'll drop the question about the High-V cars on the Manhattan els. Did they also have that sprung "clockwork" controller that a motorman could wind up and the controller itself would do the notching up, point by point in the master controller, not the control groups under the cars? or did the el cars have, as I thought all High-V's did, [but didn't] controllers that needed a motorman's vigilance in notching up, point by point, skillfully.?[or trip the overloads if they notched too fast]. For the younger set there were High-V and Low-V on Manhattan els too. The Low-V versions being most of the last survivors, most of the l909-ll group were converted to Low-V in later years. [1660-l8ll with exceptions.]
The "Hi-V" control systems on the IRT were General Electric Type M.
There were several generations. The earliest type, dating from
1901-1902, did not have any automatic notching. These were used
on the original electrification of the Manhattan els.
The second generation of Type M introduced an "automatic feed"
feature, as the IRT called it. When you advanced the master
controller handle, instead of directly advancing the internal
drum contacts, you tensioned a coil spring. A ratchet-and-pawl
arrangement, activated by a solenoid, prevented the drum from
advancing if the solenoid were energized. The solenoid was
driven from the #10 trainline wire, which was in turn connected,
in *parallel*, to the accelerating relay contacts in each of the
cars. So, if any one car in the train were drawing a current
in excess of the notch-up current setting in the accelerating relay,
the trainline would energize and halt the advance of the master
controller up front. A pretty perverted system compared to the
way automatic acceleration worked on all later cars (and earlier
cars too, but that's a whole 'nother story).
Because of this spring, the controllers of the subway Hi-Vs
had a mushy feel to them. They were called "clockworks controllers"
and this is where the motorman's slang "winding it up" comes from.
Now, any failure of this trainline and the notching solenoid stays
de-energized, and the drum follows the handle. If you wind it up
but the automatic feed has thus failed, then the cars draw excess
current, and BANG all of the line breakers drop out. Then you get
to use the RESET switch, which, as you described, produces a cool
green arc that shoots out the top.
There was another subtle generational change starting with the
Deckroofs. The way the group switch accomplished the series-parallel
transition was changed from the streetcar "K" style to the "Bridge"
style. I couldn't possibly explain it without a lot of circuit
diagrams but the end result is that with the Bridge transition
there isn't a momentary loss of tractive effort.
I'm not certain if the IRT mixed the composites/Gibbs cars and the
Deckroofs/Hedleys in passenger service.
You mention Lo-V Manhattan el cars. Some of them were retrofitted
with Lo-V controls in the 1920s. I'm not certain if these were
excess from retired composites or new components. All of the composites had been given new Lo-V controls when they were rebuilt
for the els in 1916.
Your information is great. My friend James Wyles told me about the Bridge cars (other than some of his uncomplimentary thoughts, saying in his Scottish burr "those bloody old high-v's you loved so much).Of course being a shopman he never used terms like deckroof, battleship, merry widow, etc. So I was never aware that the "bridge" feature began with the deckroofs. Interesting that diesel loco's built right up to l981 or so still had that high-v style transition. We were cautioned when pulling a heavy train up the Bozeman pass "not to let them make transition on the curves at MP 133. There was a severe drawbar strain there and making transition snapped more than a few trains apart.From my days of riding High-V's I'd swear to it that Gibbs, deckroofs, and Hedleys were all mixed together, of course with l9l5 trailers which too were Hedley's as were all cars thru 1925. The composites were off the subway by 1916 but they were indeed run in trains of steel cars. There are photos to prove it.
You could mix Bridge and K transition cars, but they'll buck a
little bit in transition. Same logic by which it was preferrable
to keep GE and WH SMEE cars in solid trains. Of course, I don't
think Interboro gave a crap if the ride was a little jolty.
That they mixed wood and steel cars in the same train, in the
subway, seems very foolish in retrospect, but then again the
whole idea of running the wood cars underground was something
the IRT didn't want to do even in 1903.
Now, on to a related thread {see next post}
The Flivvers were an oddball order of IRT cars.
The biggest question is: why were they called Flivvers?
This term was slang for a nickel coin. It was also used
in a derogatory sense to refer to the cheap Model-T Ford.
The only other usage I know of, which is probably a reference
to the model T, is in the Gershwin song Fascinating Rhythm:
Fascinating Rhythm
you've got me on the go
Fascinating Rhythm
I'm all a-quiver
Fascinating Rhythm
the neighbors want to know
why I'm always shaking
just like a Flivver
I once heard a really good explanation of why the IRT crews called
these cars "Flivvers", but I forgot it!
Somewhere I heard that they were delivered as Hi-V and converted to Lo-V or something similar. I think they also had Steinway gearing, making them real oddballs.
They didn't have Steinway gearing. They had the same gearing and motors as the basic fleets (HV,LV); There have been many stories about them but I still stick by what the old IRT men told me when I was a kid: that they were built as High V and later converted to LOw-V but weren't compatible with regular Low-V's because they had the AMRE brake for their early days, a la High-V; the Low-v and many other types had AMUE brake and they were not compatible electrically; air..yes. The Flivvers were built in l9l5 by Pullman and at the same time the Composites were being transferred to the els and got new lightweight trucks, smaller motors, new Low-V controls. So the Flivvers inherited the trucks, motors, controls, and brake systems from the Composites which were originally mechanically the same as the steel High-V's. The Flivvers were aminority portion of the fleet but were a nice lively piece of equipment like the HI-V and Lo-V; the IRT had 4 types of cars that had to be kept together and couldn't be mixed in service. HV, LV, Flivver, Steinway.
It seems likely that the IRT was experimenting with the low voltage
control groups at the time. The 1915 Steinways were Lo-V. In
1915-1916, the composites were being rebuilt with Lo-V groups.
Master controllers, group switches and brake valves tended to be
installed by the IRT in their shops, not by the carbuilder as is
current practice (the BRT was the same way). I think it is likely
that the IRT economized by re-using the trucks, traction motors
and master controllers being taken off the Composites, and then
installed the new PC switch groups brand-new from G.E.
The Flivvers did have the same AMRE braking with ME21 valves
and RE-2 triple valves as the Hi-Vs. AMUE was brand-new (debuted
around 1914 with the BRT standards). Did the Steinways
and 1916 Composite rebuilds have AMUe braking from the start?
Does anyone know how they wired those clockwork controllers to work
with the 3-point Lo-V groups? Sounds like a kluge that was done
at Branford to allow Manhattan el car "G" to run with the BRT BUs.
To my knowledge the Steinways and rebuilt composites were AMUE from the beginning. I know there has been a lot of controversy over the Flivvers and how they were originally: honestly I only know what a few old Irish motormen told me when I was a kid and I figured they were there so I take their word for them being High-v originally but sveral people have told me otherwise. I'd imagine all they'd have to do to convert the master controllers was to remove the guts and install the simplerLow-v stuff; who knows maybe GE built a kit for that purpose? As for the Steinways again they were at the time a captive fleet and probably LV and AMUE as an experiment [?]Then their were the 1938 WF cars with old style trucks; I wonder if those trucks were more stored composite trucks recycled?
How about why the Gibbs cars were called "merry Widows"? It wasn't a lesson your Sunday School teacher would share!.
No, but I don't think the Flivver explanation is quite as dirty!
Chicago's 4000-series cars, when they first arrived, were intermixed with wooden elevated cars. Of course, this was before the two subway lines were built. When the State St. subway did open, the 4000s had to be rounded up to provide service, since that same law banning wooden cars from running underground pertained there as well.
Chicago's 4000-series cars, when they first arrived, were intermixed with wooden elevated cars. Of course, this was before the two subway lines were built. When the State St. subway did open, the 4000s had to be rounded up to provide service, since that same law banning wooden cars from running underground pertained there as well.
I think the IRT knew that running mixed trains of Composites and steel cars in the subway was a disaster waiting to happen. They just held their collective breath and prayed.
The same went for mixed trains with or without anticlimbers. (The bumpers with the steel ridges on each end of the car) When the car with an anticlimber collided with another car so equipped, the damage was usually confined to the couplers and the anticlimbers themselves. When an anticlimber equipped car hit one not so equipped, or two unequipped cars collided, the cars usually telescoped (one rode over the floor of the other) with extensive damage and loss of life.
An Electric Railway Journal article looked at two IRT trains which collided at low speed back at the time when anticlimbers were a new idea. These may have been mixed composites and Gibbs cars (Seashore's 3352 was in one train). Both end cars were equipped with anticlimbers and suffered little damage - but where couplings failed mid train some cars partly telescoped where there were none. The article listed the cost to repair each car; the ones which collided were the two lowest repair costs
AFAIK, it was common practice in later years to put the older Hi-Vs with manual end doors on the ends of trains of newer cars with remote controlled doors. Since the doors at either tail end of a train weren't used, all the conductor had to worry about was a single manual door at his station. I'm sure they would open those manual doors only if the need arose, since they were described as "brutal" to operate. The center doors were remote controlled.
Without having a number roster in front of me, I can't recall where the cutoff was between cars with manual end doors and those with MUDC. The original Gibbs Hi-Vs had manual vestibule doors.
P. S. I'm surprised they didn't keep a few old Hi-Vs for service on the Bowling Green shuttle. They could have just kept the end doors closed at South Ferry.
Actually, nearly all of the Hi-Vs were converted to MUDC, with
the exception of the Deckroof (1907) cars. They were always placed
on the ends of trains. I couldn't tell you why the newer Deckroof
cars were not converted yet the older Gibbs cars (and Composites,
but they were effectively Lo-Vs by the time MUDC came along in the
early 20s) were
So then if the Gibbs Hi-Vs were converted to MUDC, that means Seashore's 3352 got that treatment as well. It no longer has its center doors, and it appears its exterior door controls have been removed as well, which would mean its vestibule doors are manually operated once again. Perhaps one of our Seashore members could elaborate on this.
Oh, I'm sure various Seashore members have opinions about 3352
that may or may not be positive. The summary version is: the car
operated for 6 years without the center door, approx 1904-1909.
ca 1910, the center door was cut in and the fish belly girder plate
added. This door was pneumatically operated with a trigger attached
to the same levers that manually close the end door. In the early
20s MUDC was added and the box under the motorman's window was
modified.
Because 3352 represents "the first" IRT car, Seashore chose, many
years ago, to attempt to restore it to 1904 condition. This meant
removing the center door, replacing the missing seating, replacing
the wood slat flooring. removing ceiling fans and battery lights,
removing all MUDC equipment, etc. It should have also involved
replacing the ME21/AMRE brake system with AMR/M19, changing the
compressor, and some minor control group mods. There may be a few
other changes that I'm forgetting.
Basically, the project got stalled in the middle of all this and
the car is in limbo.
Jeff - Thanks for the update on that early subway car. I had forgotten about it. I still recall the excitement at Seashore when it arrived and the then strange sight of a subway car at a trolley museum. There should be a subway museum on the model of the many trolley museums in this country, but possessing just subway equipment.
That's an interesting thought. It would be nice if a nice long
section of track could be had where third rail could be installed
(so that rules out CT) and the subway cars could do their thing.
Other than the TA museum fleet operating on home turf, I don't know
of any museum operations in the US with third rail.
For my purposes and I'm sure for most it would have been as well to recondition 3352 as it spent most of its life and as most people knew it.As I recall and have seen in enough photos the center door was controlled by a lever under the cab window, more centered than the MUDC control box. It was open and I believe was the same as the pre-MUDC LV and Flivver cars which had air doors but not MUDC originally.[I believe; neither did the BMT A-B's] Now in my youth and probably for years before there was a box added around that lever. Car 3352 was never an MUDC car. It remained manual door thru it's entire career. The Gibbs that were converted to MUDC were: 3514 and 3515 thru 3649 except for 3524, 3567,3591, 3638 which were used as work motors, not even modified to run with MUDC's. Photos on pages 22 and 23 of They Moved the Millions show that center door control in a box, on manual door cars I mean.
That's right, my mistake, the low-numbered Gibbs cars were not
converted. Our Deckroof 3662 at Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum
still has the manual door control boxes at the ends of the car.
A-Bs were not delivered with MUDC but the door controls were
inside the car (as I'm sure you know) and it was a simple matter
of replacing the conductor's button panel.
The 1924 order of Lo-Vs was delivered with MUDC. The 1915-1917
Lo-V orders were not but all of the doors were electropneumatically
operated by that point (no manual levers).
IIRC, the BMT standards received a (or utilized an existing) 9-pin portion for MUDC. The ones which were coupled into B units had the button consoles in the two end cars deactivated. The conductor still operated the doors from the center console of whichever car he was stationed in.
I've said this before, but in the two years I rode on the BMT standards regularly, I NEVER saw the conductor at a button console. The only reason I can think of was that somehow I never happened to be in the second or fifth car of any train. They always ran in 6-car trains on the Canarsie. Here's the real kicker: I do remember seeing what appeared to be the conductor in the motorman's cab of the fourth car on one occasion after getting off at Lorimer St., and as a result, came away with the mistaken impression that the door controls were relocated to the cabs.
I stand corrected in advance if any of this is wrong.
When the AB's were converted to MUDC [early 20's I think] a jumper cable for door controls was added. Originally they had no jumpers but the "slide" couldn't accomodate more circuits so a door jumper was added. The door control panel was indeed the only door control; the one in the center of the center car, or an A car. They never had door controls in the cabs. I forget now but will assume the D types had interior door controls for use in single units hence they could have door controls in the cabs; I know for a fact the Q's could be worked from inside or out, of course inside would be only if it were a single [3 car] Q set.
The Triplexes did have interior and exterior door controls; however, the interior controls did not trainline and could only be used if a unit was operating alone. On a train of two or more units, the conductor had "assume the position" between units. From what I've been told, the interior controls were behind a hinged panel which was kept locked when not in use. I looked for interior controls on 6095 at the museum, but didn't see anything; however, I did see a hinged panel.
There are photos in Under the Sidewalks of New York of 3352 in its as-acquired condition at Seashore and during restoration, courtesy of the Jim Tebbits (sp) collection. It appeared that quite a bit did get done regarding removing items such as the center doors, fish belly sills, and exterior boxes.
As Jef H. states only the Deckrooves never had any cars converted to MUDC. Maybe they didn't look good in the middle of a train????? In any event it wasn't a matter of "older"... l9l0 standard High-V's 3700-3756 and 3815 and 3915 remained manual until the end. Likewise Most of the Gibbs in the 3515-3649 group were converted to MUDC. Too bad the IRT was so cheap; they should have converted all of them, but like hand fired steam locos... if they had to have the man aboard let him work! That's my assumption.
I am a Conductor on the "F" Line on Mondays. Since the beginning of the pick, my 2 round trips have never been on time. Each and every Monday, we have been delayed by signal problems, power problems, defective trains, sick passengers, and poor dispatching- especially at 179th Street. This past Monday, we started late because command ordered the dispatcher to send us out from Stillwell dispite emergency track repairs at Kings Highway. Five trains were backed up north of Kings Highway station because of emergency switch repairs. The dispatcher wanted to send us out via the "N" line express, but control would rather have us and the other 5 trains wait backed up for 45 minutes. When we finally were able to move, we got backed up more in Manhattan with ( rightfully so passengers) who complained that no announcements were made and they were waiting for up to 1 hour!
When we got to 179th Street, we were sent out to relay the train and go our normal route to Kings Highway. We were plugged by a train in front of us with heavy passenger load. Remember, we are susposed to be at 5 minute intervals during rush hour. We get the normal congestion from Queens Plaza to Lexington Avenue, then get held at west 4th for a connection with the D train. As soon as the D train comes in, the holding lights go off and they want us to leave with close to 200 passengers trying to squeeze into my train! We get to Delancy Street and close to half of the train is trying to get off for the J, M, and Z trains and another 100 or so trying to get on at the same time. Making announcements and trying to tell them to let the passengers off the train first is done several times, but ignored by these "customers' who refuse to move out of the way. We finally get to Jay Street, where we are held again, this time for a connection with the "A" train. This time, station announcements, along with mine allow for an easy connection. We pull out from Jay Street, only to be held in the tunnel before Bergen Street- the train dispatchers decided to put the "G" train in front of us knowing that we are 20 minutes late! We left 179 street 30 minutes late as it is and I managed to make up a little time! We finally get to 4th avenue and loose some more passengers for the M, N, and R trains. WE get held at Church Avenue because of congestion ahead. The dispatcher says that we are running too close to the train in front of us! How about putting us on the express track so we can get back on schedule? No way! We finally get back to Kings Highway and have to go out right away- no time for even a bathroom break! Heading back up to Manhattan, we encounter the "G" plugging us at Smith and Ninth. Looking at the schedule and my watch, I know that I will never reach 179th in time for my scheduled meal time- so I eat on the train between Brooklyn and Manhattan tunnel. Trouble in manhattan again- delays on the "D" and "Q" lines! Passengers told to use the "F"! Packed in like sardines, they try to squeeze in - even though I announce there is a train behind us- I can see the headlights- but they ignore me anyway! When we get to 47-50th, the station looks like Lexington Avenue! I find out that 3 "F" trains in front of us were rerouted to 21st and Queensbridge because of signal problems at 23rd and Ely! Slowly we crawl through to Lexington Avenue where we get bombed with angry customers for a second time. We again crawl through the tunnel at 10 mph since there is a backlog of trains in front of us. Signal maintainers were indeed working at 23rd and Ely. Finally we pass through the area and can proceed at normal speed! We get to 179th street 35 minutes late- too late for a meal. Fortunately, I bring my own food and was able to eat it when we go express in Queens! I go for a rest stop at the bathroom, and out again after relaying the train! We finally make it to Coney Island on our last trip 10 minutes late, even though we left 45 minutes late from 179! We were not plugged nor did we have any holding lights or other trains in front of us- the others were rushing as well to make up the time lost! This is only one Monday- there have been many others like this and some much worse! Something must and should be done- we are all suffering from these delays! I can't wait for the next pick and get off this line! I am glad that it is only one day I am on this line- I would probably go crazy if this occurs 5 days a week!
Saw an F on the express track at W4th (northbound)Monday. Guess it was because of the problems you encountered. If you ask me all these signal problems have to do with too many GT's causing congestion from slowing trains down. Faster trains mean more space, and all tracks should be used for their fullest potential, esp the unused express tracks on Culver.
Who knows what the TA genuises will think up next? More GT's, more signals, and more freakin WD's!! Talk about safety overkill!
More like paranoia, if you ask me. Too many &$%#@! GTs is more like it.
(We finally make it to Coney Island on our last trip 10 minutes late, even though we left 45 minutes late from 179!)
If thats possible why can't they adjust the schedule to reduce the run times on non-rush hour trains ?
If you stretch a schedule that much, any small error will result in trains being late 24-7. Trains must have make-up time built into the schedule. If you look at NJT schedules you'll notice that the last stop often seems rediculously far from the second to last time-wise, when in fact they are close together (like Pt. Pleasant & Bay Head, and Somerville & Raritan).
Nice writeup. I use to ride with Sam Shifter during my Brooklyn Tech days and I understand the conductor's viewpoint. Since the conductor (at that time - 70's) did not have access to a radio, he (this was the 70's) was clueless to what is going on with the other services. The conductor is the only offical NYCTA personel the public can touch and feel during their "Good for one Fare" ride in the city. Heck, he does not know why the other services are screwed up, or why the D has nor shown up for an hour. He's a conductor on the F, go ask a conductor on the D as to why, etc, etc.....
I use to hang out at the tower (actually an office for the dispatcher to record time and motor number of the trains in the station. The only tower funcition is the ability to use the holding lights) at 42 and 6 with Barney and Sam, just watching the rush hour activities. Sometimes they would sent me up to the cab to ask the motorman his call sign. I don't remember if radios were in the tower then.
Hang in there bud. You can move up to T/O and isolate yourself from the people who expect to live forever on their one lousy token.
I take the F every day. You have some bad streaks, but it usually works pretty well. But there is no excuse for track work screwing up the whole line when you have three tracks, and you are only using two.
I take the F every day from 179th St, Queens to 14th St, Manhattan. It does get its fair share of delays. Noticeably the northbound trains get held up at 47-50 quite a bit, presumably to let the E through (the same happens "southbound" just before 71st Av.) The F sure is a low priority. And the 53rd St. tunnel can be pretty slow too.
It was unusualy crowded today.
the Es wait for the Fs more than the other way
Except in the instances of protracted delays, the E's and F's will be alternated. Each waits for the other. The main reason for the delay is that at 7th Ave, 47th-50th St., 5th Ave and especially at lexington, people are somewhat persistant about boarding their trains.
In the AM, Queens-bound, there is frequently a problem at 5th Avenue with passengers being unable to exit the train. If there are any problems with the escalators, the stairway at the Madison Avenue end backs up so badly that passengers on arriving trains are unable to exit from the first two cars.
Chuck
The E and F get the highest priority of any B division routes. Congestion caused by overcrowding causes the slowness you deal with, especially around 5th/53rd.
[Passengers told to use the "F"! Packed in like sardines, they try to squeeze in - even though I announce there is a train behind us- I can see the headlights- but they ignore me anyway! ]
That's because the passengers have been told there is a train right behind countless times and have ended up waiting 10 minutes to try to squeeze onto yet another packed train. In the end it just makes sense to force your way onto the train in front of you rather than risking not being able to force your way onto the next train which may or may not show up soon regardless of what the announcer says.
[Passengers told to use the "F"! Packed in like sardines, they try to squeeze in - even though I announce there is a train behind
us- I can see the headlights- but they ignore me anyway! ]
(That's because the passengers have been told there is a train right behind countless times and have ended up waiting 10 minutes
to try to squeeze onto yet another packed train. In the end it just makes sense to force your way onto the train in front of you
rather than risking not being able to force your way onto the next train which may or may not show up soon regardless of what
the announcer says. )
I always wait for the next train. While I get burned occasionally, the usual result is a train right behind with very few passengers.
5:45 PM at 14th St-Queens-bound-every weekday- one very crowded F followed 2 mins later by a totally empty one.
Same thing at 34th street around 5:12 pm or so - a packed F followed I swear less than a minute and a half later by an empty one.
If the train is packed, I always look back down the track for headlights.
"I always wait for the next train. While I get burned occasionally, the usual result is a train right behind with very few passengers."
I agree. At least in my experience here in Chicago, when you've been waiting a long time for an L train, and then a train finally comes, it's because they've either fixed the problem or at least have trains going around it.* Therefore, there should be a train as close behind the one that just stopped as the cab signals will allow them to get, and depending on the length of the delay, other trains right behind that one spaced as close as the signal system allows. Though "a train right behind this one" is an almost-inherent result of the way CTA responds to disruptions, for some reason most people tend to ignore the announcement and stuff themselves into the present train.
*Almost always by wrong-railing -- three and four track stretches aren't common outside the old Northwestern Elevated (which carries the present Red, Purple, and Brown lines through the densest-populated neighborhoods of the North Side).
Though "a train right behind this one" is an almost-inherent result of the way CTA responds to disruptions, for some reason most people tend to ignore the announcement and stuff themselves into the present train.
I think there's two reasons for this:
1) Chicagoans tend to be more than a bit cynical concerning the CTA, and usually rightfully so. True or not, "There's another train right behind this one" is usually taken as the transit equivalent of "The check is in the mail."
2) Chicagoans know the cardinal rule of rush hour commuting: No matter how crowded a bus or train is, there is always room for one more person. :-)
In my seven years of living in Chicago, there's only been one occasion when I found it utterly impossible to squeeze onto a CTA train, and that was the week following our little 23" blizzard a couple years ago when a sizeable portion of the rapid transit fleet (mostly the 2600's) was knocked out of service.
-- David
Boston, MA
I wonder how the 4000s and 6000s fared in the aftermath of the January 1967 blizzard which dumped something like 26 inches of snow over two days.
Also, the "train behind us" could be going a different way. Like, the F train currently at the station might be going to Coney Island while the next one might only be going to Kings Highway. If you're headed for Coney Island, you won't want to wait for the next train! Also, when two trains are that close together, the first one often goes express. Don't get me wrong; I hate crowded trains as much as the next guy. But sometimes I just want to get home already!
"We finally make it to Coney Island on our last trip 10 minutes late, even though we left 45 minutes late from 179!"
I hate to dispute what you are saying but this is absolutely false.
If you were running light you couldn't make up 35 minutes from 179th to Stillwell.
If they are gapping you because your too close to the F in front of you, why do you want to go express. The move would be the train in front of you go express. Anyway you can't go express then, trains are still short turning at the Highway No??
I said nothing about running express. I only stated that what was claimed by the original poster, that they made up 35 minutes on a trip from 179th Street to Stillwell Avenue, was an impossibility. I made no other comments on the rest of the post.
The Poster was THE CONDUCTOR, he if anyone should know how much time was made up
First, the poster alleges to be the conductor. You and I have no way of knowing who he really is. Second, I said that making up 35 minutes on the F line while in service is mpossible. I also say that even if the train is running light, even if the train went over the crosstown line, they could not have made up 35 minutes - period. Third, unless I missed it, the original poster has not defended my challange of his claim. Forth, there are several other subtalkers who are train operators, conductors and even train service supervisors. None of them have supported that ludicrous claim. Finally, I showed the original post to a Line Superintendent who's only comment was B&%% S#!@. Now, much the same as the R-68 speed issue, I am only posting facts. You can choose to believe what you want.
My friend...I live walking distance from Jamiaca yard. AND I PICK THE Q for just that reason.
Don't bother complaining here. I tried telling these stories once and I got a lot of negative reaction. Mostly things like: "that's the job, if you don't like it quit."
Take that frustration and direct it toward where it belongs. The union. E mail me if you want to exchange further.
Microsoft has annoucned that they are coming out with a Railroad Sim game. Full details and screen shots at:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/default.asp
A lot of screen shots including some of Acela and BNSF Frieght.
For Spring of 2001, wouldn't it be a hoot if MS got this out before Amtrak ran Acela??
I suggested this to Microsoft over a year ago in a survey (not exactly this, but pretty similar). (You know, that question: What new products would you like to see us put on the market for the New Millenium?)
Does anyone know what the color bars under unit numbers stand for? I have seen many color bars and some have with some kind of symbols centered of the bars.
The colored bars stand for what yards the trains come from. For the A Division, the colored bars are as follows,
Red - 240 Street Yard
Yellow - Westchester Yard
Blue - Livonia Yard, Lenox Yard
Green - 239 Street Yard
Orange - Jermoe Yard
Black - East 108 Street Yard, Unionport Yard
Purple - Corona Yard
I've seen Red and Green Labels on R68s based out of Coney Island Yard. Since they are not in the A Division, the color assignments above don't apply. Does anybody know what they mean? Some trains on the A Division also have little circles and/or diamonds on them. I have no clue what they mean.
[Purple - Corona Yard]
It's actually black or yellow with a purple diamond. I see them all the time on the 7 line, and on some cars on the 6 line.
Yesterday while watching an off brand TV station I saw a public service commercial encouraging ppl to vote. The ad stars a sci fi reading, star trek loving, geek who goes on and on about his interests and how because he had read over 500 sci-fi books he feels qulified to make public policy. The tag line was "This guy votes, shouldn't you?" Well I instantly thought of the same type of ad, but featuring railfans. As funny as it might be it would probably only encourage NIMBY's to come out.
Was this South Jersey specific or can I possibly see it up here?
It was on Channel 48, WGTW, Burlington NJ (10 miles from Trenton). It was paid for by some sort of website like vote2000.org You might see it on any low budget TV station.
The following is the web address of a long article in the English version of a Frankfurt newspaper about the 100th anniversary of the Paris Metro. If it doesn't work just do a search on "subway" in www.faz.com!
http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/docmain.asp?rub={F1B72E51-3783-11D4-A3AA-009027BA22E4}&doc={9729D0CD-5CAA-11D4-B98F-009027BA226C}
What is being depicted in the second picture??
It looks like framing for a Metro tunnel, however, it is completely above ground! Maybe it is a mockup for the construction crew, prior to digging the street for cut and cover.
Perhaps they built the tubes on the surface and then sunk them down.
I think the second picture is an elevated line. I think there was some mistranslation between words for subway and elevated in German, French and English. Notice how one of the paragraphs refers to New York's subway as starting in 1868, when that is the date for the elevated lines. In German the "U-bahn" is both elevated and underground, even though the U stands for "untergrund" just as we call the entire transit system in NYC the subway. So I think the picture is of one of the elevated lines built along with the subway in Paris. Again, the entire system in Paris is called the Metro, and I don't think there were elevated lines running before the system opened in 1900, so elevated construction probably occurred at the same time as subway construction. Two old major elevated sections are #6 in the southwest and southeast corners and #2 in the northeast corner. I don't know exactly which lines were first, but I do know that 2 & 6 are old ones, and were actually originally one circular line. Check out http://www.ratp.fr/index_eng.htm for Paris Metro info.
Is there a site that shows the chronological openings of the different lines and segments of lines of the Paris Metro?
A short one in English can be found at
http://www.metropla.net/eu/par/paris.htm
All the other that I know of are in French.
Try the links from nycsubway.org too
http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/transfer3.html#paris
The built a case above ground and sink it underground method
was used on some early River Seine crossing sections.
This one looks like it's from the line 4 between Chatelet and St. Michel
>2 & 6 are old ones, and were actually originally one circular line.
It was planned as a circular line but it never actually happened.
Most of line 6 originally opened as line 2 Sud (South) but was
operated as part of line 5 (Gare du Nord-Place d'Italie-Etoile)
for quite a long time.
Another plan was to make parts of the current lines 8, 10, 13 an inner circle.
That never happened either, but one can trace some history in many parts of
those lines.
Hi,
Does anyone know the track assignments for the Grand Central .Are there tracks assigned for the lines and or various terminals??
Thank you
Steve
They change. Usually when the schedule changes.
BUT, On the upper level they try (but not always) to keep the New Haven line trains on the East tracks (lower numbers)
Since we're hearing about a possible new "V" train to cover 6th Ave-63rd St-Queens Blvd serve that would possibly take the place of the G on the Queens Blvd. local--
--What will happen with the Q?
I mean, the V isn't a whole lot of use if it's only a local that terminates at 71-Continental. What this line really needs is a new express--that remains express all the way to 179th. I kind of had that in mind for the Q. (As a side, I also expect it will be back on Broadway, or why else are they adding servie on 6th)
So, the question is: Can Queens Blvd. handle another express?
If not, can the line handle another local (I would asume the V, or Q), that goes all the way to 179th? While the F stays express?
If there isn't some kind of improvement past 71-Continental, I'm not sure what this connection is for. There's already access from Queens Blvd. to both Broadway and 6th Ave.
[...I also expect [the Q] will be back on Broadway, or why else are they adding servie on 6th]
I haven't heard this. Where did you get this information?
In general terms the improvement is that all those people who currently get off the G train at Queens Plaza to get a Manhattan-bound train will go directly to the 63rd St. tunnel leaving the other 3 trains running along there less crowded. The whole problem has always been that only 3/4 of the Queens line trains go into Manhattan.
(So, the question is: Can Queens Blvd. handle another express?)
No. The theoretical capacity is 30 tph, and that's what they've go. In theory, the new signals will allow 40 tph when installed. A third express could be added at that point, and sent through 63rd St.
(If not, can the line handle another local (I would asume the V, or Q), that goes all the way to 179th? While the F stays express?)
Yes. But I'm not sure the TA would have the cars, or the passenger load, to justify that extension. Everyone would just want to get on the express ASAP anyway, unless they were traveling within Queens -- and few people are.
Thinking about it realistically, the issue of car shortages has sunk in, and I guess the idea of the V running to Brooklyn is wishful thinking, at least for now. 2nd Av. is where they always said it would go. Church Av and beyond is our idea. Also, the first to go in the South side closed scenarion would be the uptown B to 34th. That will leave thew West End as the only "B", and therefore leave less justification for changing it into a "T" )I still think they should, but they definitely won't be bothered then).
They'll probably just eliminate Concourse exp. or you may see the C go back to Bedford Pk and the A always stop at 155th and 163rd.
Who know, they may use this to try to pull off their draconial 1991 proposed cuts, with the A running local all the way, the C eliminated,, and an H from the Rockaways to 34th. They were pressured to keep the A exp. for sentimental reasons, but now the need for cars for the Queens service would be good justification for it. ("Must have the cars for this new service; nothing else we can do")
Plus, there's the idea of the 6 car J trains, etc.
Thinking about it realistically, the issue of car shortages has sunk in, and I guess the idea of the V running to Brooklyn is wishful thinking, at least for now. 2nd Av. is where they always said it would go. Church Av and beyond is our idea. Also, the first to go in the South side closed scenarion would be the uptown B to 34th. That will leave thew West End as the only "B", and therefore leave less justification for changing it into a "T" )I still think they should, but they definitely won't be bothered then).
They'll probably just eliminate Concourse exp. or you may see the C go back to Bedford Pk and the A always stop at 155th and 163rd.
Who know, they may use this to try to pull off their draconian 1991 proposed cuts, with the A running local all the way, the C eliminated,, and an H from the Rockaways to 34th. They were pressured to keep the A exp. for sentimental reasons, but now the need for cars for the Queens service would be good justification for it. ("Must have the cars for this new service; nothing else we can do")
Plus, there's the idea of the 6 car J trains, etc.
This connection is only because they started the contract for it plus other stuff decades ago,and they have been afraid to abandon it.
Whatever new service there is will probably run on 6th Avenue because 57 St. needs a train running through it. HOWEVER.... What most people would want is an extra Bway train because a huge number of people transfer to the R train at Queens Plaza because it is the only train that goes through the entire Financial district south of Fulton St. So if the new service is a local to 6th Avenue it is not useful because it does not go to Wall St (Rector St.). If the new service is a local to Bway it is not useful because no express users can get to it at Queens Plaza and very few will transfer at Roosevelt Avenue to get it.
Finally, my thinking is that the Q will not switch to Bway until the Manhattan bridge Bway side reopens.
My final guess is:
If Manhattan Bridge opens:
Q runs express in Manhattan and Queens via Bway and 63 St. to 179 St. rush hours, to 57 St. only the rest of the time.
V runs local from 2nd Avenue via 6th Ave. and 63 St. to 71 Ave all times (but possibly becomes Smith St.local to Church Avenue rush hours).
E, F, R remain unchanged (but F possibly becomes Smith St. Express between Bergen St. and Church Avenue rush hours).
If Manhattan Bridge Bway side does not reopen, I give up...
I too think about how I would configure routings. So here's my plan, assuming Manny-B south side only, for peak-hour operation. Off-peak, there are plenty of additional options. I have done this with the following strategies in mind:
Minimize crossing trains in front of each other.
Only two lines per tunnel/bridge crossing if possible.
Only one route per letter (i.e. no "split service").
E
Jamaica Center to World Trade, via Queens Blvd. express, 53rd Street tunnel, 8th Ave. local.
F
179th Street to Coney Island via Queens Blvd. express, 53rd Street tunnel, 6th Ave. local, Culver line.
V
179th Street to 2nd Ave. via Queens Blvd. local, 63rd Street tunnel, 6th Ave. local.
R
71st Street to 95th Street via Queens Blvd. local, 60th Street tunnel, Broadway local, Rutgers tunnel.
N
Astoria to Coney Island/Sea Beach via 60th Street tunnel, Broadway local, Rutgers tunnel.
T
Astoria to Coney Island via 60th Street tunnel, Broadway express, Manny-B, West End line.
Q
57th & 7th to Coney Island via Broadway express, Manny-B, Brighton line.
D
205th Street to 34th Street via 6th Ave. express.
B
Bedford Park Blvd. to 34th Street via 6th Ave. express.
Boy, it's rainy up here in Boston...
and that's...
Yo: Broadway local, Rutgers tunnel? That connection does not exist!
Of course you are right. Case of Mistaken Identity (and typing too fast). I meant Montague of course.
Sorry... my error. Typing too fast. Of course I meant Montague, not Rutgers.
Interesting ideas. With only one service on the Brighton line (Q), however, would there be enough service? Also, could they turn two lines at 34/6 fast enough during rush hour?
Perhaps the V down Broadway/Manny-B/Brighton Beach, with either the D or B continuing beyond 34/6 to 2nd Avenue?
Chuck
Yes, the 34th St station can handle 2 terminating lines during rush hours, as it did from 1986-88. You could reroute M service to the Brighton, and have increased T/Q service because only 2 lines would use the bridge.
No, they won't put 8 car M trains via tunnel as the main Brighton local again. (If it ever comes back, it would be the rush hour special like the QB.
What he forgot to put was the W as the second Brighton via Broadway.
I didn't suggest that they make the M the only Brighton local. Thats been tried and failed.
Here's my version of your plan:
B and D would remain the same.
T Broadway/West End - 57th/7th and Coney Island, all times except nights.
N Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach: Express across the bridge, bypassing Dekalb. Stops at 49th St.
Q Brighton/Broadway: 57th/7th to Brighton Beach weekdays (express in Brooklyn), and to Coney Island all other times (local in Brooklyn)
W Astoria/Broadway/Brighton: From Coney Island, via the Brighton local, Montague St. tunnel, Broadway local and 60th St. tunnel to Queensboro Plaza. Extended to Astoria rush hours. This line would only operate during the weekday hours. An old QT route clone.
M: Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St ONLY. Yes, I'm now advocating the elimination of Nassau St service south of Broad St COMPLETELY. With only 1/2 of a Manhattan bridge usable, the capacity is needed more for midtown trains. The R and W would still run to lower Manhattan.
Interesting variation, Chris.
For those who are curious, you & I are suggesting that 57/7 become a northern terminus for Broadway expresses; trains can relay just north of there on the tracks that lead to the 63rd street line, but that are unused except in reroutes. This won't interfere with local service that goes to the 60th street tubes.
I also thought of extending this service one stop north to the unused layup tracks at Lexington Avenue via the G3/G4 tracks, and removing the false walls. But I think that relays would be difficult as trains would have to wrong-rail long enough that congestion would result.
I see it's raining so hard down in NYC that the Circle Line has just instituted cross-town service on 42nd Street :-)
And that's...
(For those who are curious, you & I are suggesting that 57/7 become a northern terminus for Broadway expresses; trains can
relay just north of there on the tracks that lead to the 63rd street line, but that are unused except in reroutes. This won't interfere
with local service that goes to the 60th street tubes).
One train can also run through the 63rd St tunnel to Queens Blvd. Rather than run a separate Q and V, the Q could be run through even if it is on Broadway rather than 6th Avenue.
Anyway, here is what I suggest as service, assuming opening of 63rd connector, Manhattan Bridge south side and closure of north side, train shortage.
E: same as now.
F: same as now, but 9 tph instead of 18.
V: 71st Av. Queens - 2nd Av. Manhattan. 18/7
Q: Jamaica-179th to Brighton Beach/Coney Island. Express throughout. 9 tph. 18/7.
N: same as now. With low ridership on Sea Beach and desire of Astoria people for local, no need to improve service. 6 tph. 24/7.
R: same as now.
T: (replace B). Astoria to Coney Island, via West End Exp. (trains from Queens running local to Canal A.M., reverse PM. 10 tph. 18/7.
D (south): 57th/7th Coney Island (I am assuming that it is somehow possible to turn them around at or north of 57th to as not to interfere with the Q). 10 tph. 24/7.
S: shuttle Grand St. to Broadway-Lafayette.
When were the lower level tracks between Ocean Pky and West 8th St on the Brighton Line last used and when were they removed? I recall viewing a Roger Arcara video re: the Brooklyn el lines and the tracks were in place during the late '30s.
Carl M.
The tracks you refer to were used up to October, 1954, when the IND was through routed over the Culver line to Coney Island. At that time, the tracks connecting the lower level at W. 8th St. to the Brighton line at Ocean Parkway were removed.
If I recall correctly from the early 50s, at least on weekends, the Brighton Local trains used the lower level (shared with Culver line trains) and the Franklin Ave. specials (Franklin-Nassau?) used the upper level.
-- Ed Sachs
The Franklin Avenue weekend locals ran on Saturdays from Coney Island to Franklin Avenue on the Shuttle line to (my guess) provide extra service to the Brooklyn Museum, the Botanic Garden, and the main Library as well as extra service through the main movie theater and shopping section of Brooklyn (Flatbush Avenue and Church Avenue). When new fluorescent light cars were put on the BMT around 1961, the Brighton-Franklin Saturday trains used BMT standards exclusively. It was easy to tell which train was coming.
The Saturday service described here began around 1958 when they stopped operating two services on the Brighton line into Manhattan on Saturdays.
As I recall, at first they cut the Brighton Local back to Chambers St. (via tunnel) on Saturdays, and started running the Saturday Brighton Express via bridge, then local in Manhattan (to Astoria). This arrangement lasted less than a year, after which the Saturday locals were sent to Franklin Ave.
In January, 1961, the north terminals of most of the BMT Broadway line trains were changed, the (weekday) Brighton Expresses now terminating at 57th St, (weekday) Brighton Local to Astoria. (Other changes - West End Exp. to Astoria Mon-Fri rush hours, 4th Ave. local to Forest Hills weekdays, 57th St nights and weekends). The Saturday Brighton service was the Brighton Express running Coney Island to Astoria - express in Brooklyn, via Bridge, and local in Manhattan. The Saturday service used the cars assigned to the Brighton Local during the week (standards being replaced by R27s). The Saturday Brighton Local ran Brighton Beach to Franklin Ave. using the cars assigned to the Brighton Express during the week (Triplexes signed as No. 7). It's interesting to note that express service operated on the Brighon line on Saturdays in those years, but not weekday middays (when the Brighton Express ran local in Brooklyn).
Finally, in 1962 or 1963, the Saturday express service on the Brighton line ended (just the Brighton local - QB via bridge) and regular service south of Prospect Park from Franklin Ave. ended for good.
I'm not sure when the "sunny summer Sunday" expresses from Franklin Ave. to Coney Island (and beyond?) ended, but I think it ran until about 1955 or 56.
-- Ed Sachs
That would make a good trivia question: name a route besides the E and F which runs or ran express in a borough other than Manhattan, but not IN Manhattan. The N sort of fits in that mold, but only because of the bridge fiasco.
BTW, what marker lights did they use on those Brighton locals to Chambers St.? It sounds as if they were running a variation of the Bankers Special on Saturdays. Oh and did they reverse direction at Chambers St., or did they return to Brooklyn via bridge?
The <6>, the <7>, the J/Z.
The 6, 7, and the J/Z
That's my final answer, Regis...
Yes but on the J/Z skip the Bowery, or Essex, doesn t that make Manhatten Exp too?
The J/Z routes no longer skip the Bowery station, ever since the bridge reopened last September.
The old Culver Express, and the old Franklin Sunny Summer Day Specials
When I got on at GCT, it was northbound number 7211. Going Southbound was 7220. After discussing it with some Railfans and a TSS on hand, he said, For some Reason the R142A can only reach around 62 or so. But yesterday while in the Under River tunnel going northbound into the BX, I like to guess that we reached at least 48-50MPH. Me I often like to guess a Trains speed, especially when I cannot see the speedometer or when it is missing like on Certain Redbirds on the Flushing EL
Check the Stats for the R142 on the site. Maximun Design Speed: 100 KMH/ 62 MPH. I believe the R142A also followed that spec.
It's interesting that the train was built to hard metric specifications and only soft converted into US customary units.
Only 62?:-)
That's not too shabby. I'll settle for 45-50 on the express straightaways on 7th Ave. and Park Ave.
I was headed southbound on the R142A number 7220. Around I would say Westchester Sq by the yard entry, I saw some Redbirds preparing to Relay to go down to City hall. However, they had Black stripes under their numbers???
Because the 5 has some Pelham R62s for late night OPTO, the 6 gets some cars from 180th Street and Unionport yards.
not to mention the 6 redbirds with WF windows..
1SF9
Many of those cars spent 1966-1985 on the #6 line.
I was on the F yesterday. It was moving very slow. I heard the RTO people ordering all A,C,and E's on to 6th avenue. Anyway there was a R32 in front of us on the Local Track. I assume that was an C or an E. Also The A was running express like a D would, while the C and E would follow the F local. Can any1 explain this?
There must have been something seriously wrong along 8th Ave. If the A was running express a la the D, it would have switched over to the local track north of W. 4th St. so it could switch back to the 8th Ave. line south of W. 4th along with the C and E. Unless, of course, A trains were operating via the F line to Brooklyn....
Or maybe Rudy wanted to justify having those switches south of W. 4th St. in the first place.:-)
There was a building collapse and all 8av service was on 6av from w4 to 59. WCBS 880 had the info on the traffic report.
Does anyone know where the Park avenue tunnel is exactly?
It is under Park Avenue between GC and Union Square.
It only goes as far as 33rd Street.
Depends on which one you're thinking of: the NY Central tunnel, the subway tunnel, or the auto underpass just south of the Park Avenue viaduct.
Its between 40st. and 12st. in Manhattan
Are you talking about the vehicular tunnel or the subway tunnel? The subway tunnel runs from Union Suqare to 42nd St. (officially Park Ave. South runs from 17th to 32nd St. and Park Ave. starts at 32nd St.), while the vehicular tunnel runs from 33rd to 40th Sts., after which the Grand Central overpass directs cars onto the upper part of Park Ave., starting at 46th St.
[where is the Park Avenue Tunnel]
[Are you talking about the vehicular tunnel or the subway tunnel? The subway tunnel runs from Union Square to 42nd St. (officially Park Ave. South runs from 17th to 32nd St. and Park Ave. starts at 32nd St.), while the vehicular tunnel runs from 33rd to 40th Sts., after which the Grand Central overpass directs cars onto the upper part of Park Ave., starting at 46th St.]
Just to confuse things further, the tunnel used by Metro North trains from Grand Central to about 98th Street is sometimes called the Park Avenue Tunnel.
I've been thinking of that all along. Actually it's the only Park Ave. tunnel I knew about.[ex-NY Central]. I've heard the term "Murray Hill tunnel" which I THINK is the present day Lex from just south of GC to 33rd St.From 33rd st. station south is conventional subway, cut and cover. Correct me if I'm wrong on the Murray Hill Tunnel.
Sometimes? Its always been the one and only Park Ave. Tunnel and refered to as such. I have a scan of a Met N time table and I believe it says Park Ave. Tunnel.
The Original Park Ave Tunnel went from GCT to 96th St where the Metro North now begins. Until about 30-40 years ago. Park Ave Started at 39th St and went North, below that was 4th Ave, then they extended street was call Park Ave South. So up to some time in the last 3rd of the 20th Century. They changed the names of the streets
Park Avenue always started at 32nd Street.
No it didn t In early days there was no Park Ave South, it was all 4th Ave from about 8th St to 38 or 40th. Boy Scout Headquarters in the early 50s was 2 Park Ave at either 38th or 40th. Get your self a street map from the 50s.
[No it didn t In early days there was no Park Ave South, it was all 4th Ave from about 8th St to 38 or 40th. Boy Scout Headquarters in the early 50s was 2 Park Ave at either 38th or 40th. Get your self a street map from the 50s.]
2 Park Avenue is just south of 34th.
It is on the north side of 32nd.
My sister used to live at 7 Park Ave., which was on the northeast corner of 34th St. and Park Ave. The building even had a manually operated elevator.
Bullshit.
Like they would renumber Park Avenue's addresses just so it could start 6 blocks earlier.
Rather than using foul language, I should have done this instead.
Not only does Park Avenue start at 32nd Street and always has, the original span of Park Avenue as designated ran only from 32nd to 34th, it was gradually extended northward before making it to the Bronx around the turn of the century.
If you don't believe me, refer to Henry Moscow's "The Street Book."
Look at the surface layout above and below 32nd St. The stretch from 34th to 39th is very similar to the stretch of Park Ave. above 60th St. (and formerly down to 46th St. before the 1950s office tower boom), while the stretch from 32nd St. to Union Square is defined by a narrow traffic median. The division of Park Ave. and Fourth Ave. makes far more sense at that spot than at 39th St.
When Park Avenue was so designated, the Murray Hill Tunnel was an open cut, everything else, between 26th and somewhere in what is now the 80s (where the Mt. Prospect Tunnel began) it was on the surface or sligtly above or below it.
In case those people who get angry when even the slightest off-topic item is posted, the Park Avenue Underpass (to prevent confusion with the rail tunnel) was once used for rail.
The Park Avenue Underpass (to prevent confusion with the rail tunnel) was once used for rail.
And there are still visible traces of the station that was there, including remnants of the platforms and stairways - not enough to stand on, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if the platform was high or low platform. I know trolleys ran there eventually, which means low, but I'm not sure if they used a station down there.
Hard to tell from the evidence remaining. I'd have to assume that the tunnel floor was lowered at some point, since the platform remnants are visible some distance up from the pavement surface - far enough up that it appears even if they were high platforms they'd be too high for track at pavement level. And I'm not about to stop in the tunnel and get out with a tape measure :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually there are two "Park Avenue Tunnels." There is the present day "Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel" between 33 Street and 40 Street which basically is a renaming of the much older "Murray Hill Tunnel"
between 34 Street and 39 Street which was the original route of the New York and Harlem Railroad. The other"Park Avenue Tunnel" is the one used by Metro-North extending north from Grand Central to 96 Street. This also incorporates a much earlier tunnel,in this case the "Mt Prospect Tunnel" between 92 Street and 94 Street. This earlier tunnel s of brick arch construction and covers the two center tracks (Tks 1 and 2) of the Hudson Line and is still in use. The two outer tracks (Tks 3 and 4) run outside the older tunnel but are still roofed over by Park Avenue. If you ride in the first car of a MN MU train its easy to see the diffent construction.
Larry,RedbirdR33
IIRC, the express tracks are directly beneath the old Murray Hill Tunnel north of 33rd St., which would explain why they are lower than the local tracks along that stretch.
Actually, the northbound and southbound tracks are in two seperate tunnels on either side of the vehicular tunnel. The express tracks dip for the approach, and the local tracks also dip immediately north of the station.
-Hank
Yes, and the tunnels appear to have arched roofs with no I-beams between the tracks.
Look at the ceiling in the 33rd St. IRT station and you will see it is level over all four tracks, so the lower elevation of the express tracks there has nothing to do with anythin above the subway line. The local tracks were built higher at 33rd St. to provide "gravity assist" to local trains stopping and restarting at the station. The other place I know this was done was at the now-closed 91st St. station - perhaps there are others.
As for the M-N tunnel, the north portal is at 97th St., nor 96th or 98th. The actual tunnel ends at the south side of 97th St., but a steel overpass to carry 97th across the tracks was later built immediately next to it, so trains now emerge into the light at the north side of 97th St.
The local tracks were built higher at 33rd St. to provide "gravity assist" to local trains stopping and restarting at the station. The other place I know this was done was at the now-closed 91st St. station - perhaps there are others.
This is common on all of the lines that make up the IRT "H", for the reason you stated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that you mention it, one of the local stations between 14th St. and Chambers St. on the 7th Ave. line has elevated local tracks. On the Park Ave. straightaway, at the southern end of 33rd St., all four tracks are at the same level, IIRC.
Houston, 33rd, and 91st are the only stations I know of with low express tracks. Any others? (Of course, I'm not counting lines where the express tracks run an entire level below the local tracks.)
i went to newark to ride the venerable pcc cars... when i went to validate the ticket, it said the ticket is only good for 45 minutes... it used to be 2 hours...that's a reduction of 62.5%... or you only get 37.5% of the time that you used to get for the $1.. it's still good for about 3 rides during rush hour, which isn't bad... on the way out at penn station, they were checking tickets and it seemed like they snagged a few people...
Try to remember that it's designed for normal people, not subfans. Real people just get on, go where they're going, and get off. These were always supposed to be one-way, one-ride tickets. They've just cut the time back to more reasonably approximate the length of a single ride. In other words, for us railfans, the party's over.
Light rail tickets in Denver have had a one hour and 20 minute window, which was way more than enough when the original line opened. In fact, if you were going downtown on a short errand, you could use the same ticket on the return trip as long as it hadn't expired. I'm not sure if they've cut that back since the new extension opened; the next time I go downtown from my neck of the woods with an express ticket, I will find out.
Here's an update:
I boarded at Englewood last Monday and thus was able to buy a local ticket (Englewood is just north of the fare zone border). The time window had not changed; it was actually 1 hour and 25 minutes. There was plenty of parking available; the lot south of the Civic Center was virtually empty.
There were no fare inspectors in either direction. Even so, I still bought another ticket for the return trip.
07/28/2000
[In other words, for us railfans, the party's over.]
Isn't the ride about 15 minutes end to end?
I guess we'll have to spend another buck to ride back!
Bill "Newkirk"
Especially if we want to get off and nose around the area looking at the progress of the construction.
obvioulsy they will have to lengthen the ticket time if they ever connect the newark subway to the hudson-bergen
on my way home from newark, i got off an r at dekalb ave, and waited for the brighton... a d came in, but it was crowded, so i waited for a q... a q arrived immediately and i got on and had to share the front window with a book reader... then i heard a long buzzer and noticed that the signal was double red...
an annoucement was made in the station, which i didn't really listen to, and i noticed that there was a set of slants on the local track and it was another q... people were standing in the doorway of the train, but the car was almost empty inside... people did not know whether it was going via the n or the q... as this was an unusual event, i got in and noticed that it had a double green line up... it pulled out and went regular on the brighton running express to sheepshead bay...
what would really have been a meaningful alignment of trains would have been if while the 2 q's were in the station, a 3rd q were to go by on the bypass track... then the world would know that the slants and the q's rule the railroad...
I was on the one from Montague St. tunnel it tewrminated at Newkirk Ave..The other express
was 1 minute behind.
"it terminated at newkirk ave"??
i was riding the front car of the the q that came through the tunnel and i got off at sheepshead bay
Did your train run express along Broadway?
I must admit I love the slants, too. Also, the Q is my FAVORITE line! Sounds like you had a nice day.
Ah, yes, VIVE LES SLANTS! The "Q", the creme brulee of the express service. Nothing beats a "Q" train in full flight as it rushes headlong past the lumbering "D" locals.
wayne
Yeah, but look what happens when a D sneaks in front of a Q at 47-50: the Q keeps hitting red signals until past Prospect Park. Annoying beyond belief.
Hi all,
I've been flying using Microsoft Flight Simulator and I think this product for the Train Sim has something that we can create using NYC subway cars (and any other transit system too) either elevated or in the tunnel.
Let's focus on NYC Subway...
Can we create tunnel and el's with accurate (or fiction) buildings and scenery? Can we create NYC Subway cars like R-9 to present including old BMT cars like D type, as well as creating stations (either accurate or fiction)?
Does anyone plan on setting up a website specifically for Subway Sim using MS Train Simulator software to provide a forum, downloads, developer's forum, ideas, etc.? I'd like to see one set up here on www.nycsubway.org
Comments? Ideas? fire away!
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
Microsoft states the TS is open so that third party can add to the set of equipment.
Any programmers out there? (Yes you know who you are)
It also says you can add "scenery" so changing the background into something like NYC shouldn't be that bad. I'm no programmer. :-)
Subway scenery shouldn't be so hard.
Walls, Columns, Rats, Homeless, Lex Luther's Secret Hideout, how hard could it be? :)
-- Kirk
(Lex Luther's Secret Hideout)
That was enter GCT !!!
(Lex Luther's Secret Hideout)
That was under GCT !!! (sorry-typing too fast)
Just saw another funny piece of graffiti on my way home this evening in the cab of Slant R-40 4395. Some Wisenheimer wrote on the window-frame "$43.95" for the car number designation.
Doug aka BMTman
>>Slant R-40 4395. Some Wisenheimer wrote
>>"$43.95" for the car number designation.
By this rule of token, that would make
r-62 #1977 to be $19.77
r-26 #7777 to be $77.77
Someone ring me up!!
1SF9
And I could purchase an SIRT R44 for a measly 4 bucks and change...LOL
On August 6th several subway/rail fans will be in Montreal, staying over on both Saturday and Sunday nights. The purpose of this visit it to enjoy Montreal's electric traction. Last time we rode the Montreal Metro it was brand new and many of the lines were incomplete or yet to open! Has anybody got a suggested itinerary for a subway/rail fan to ride and see the most of interest to us in one day? Please advise.
Heck you can do the entire Montreal Metro in one day, probably in about 4 hours. There are 4 lines (1,2,4,5), and line 4 is only 3 stations long. The western end of line 2 is practically the beginning of line 5 so you can go around in circles and get the whole thing done pretty easily.
Try... http://www.stcum.qc.ca/ for all the info.
There are also commuter lines, which you may want to look at also.
Also Learn French
I posted a "mystery photo" on the rapidtransit.net home page.
In fairness, I won't confirm or deny guesses as to where it is until people have had a fair chance to guess.
Wild guess:
Jamaica Ave. IIRC, the BRT ran surface service using gate cars in 1916, but people complained about the noise, hastening the construction of the present el.
The only reason I give this answer is because this picture is obviously a gate car running on a street level track. Most of the pre-el surface routes operated by the BRT had dedicated ROW's.
Jamaica street running was around 1902-1904. By 1916, the
only place I think this could be is Canarsie or the Rockaways
Not that the photo gives any real location clues.
I know the answer! But I won't tell you!
Are you sure? According to my book, "The history of Woodhaven and Ozone Park", street level BRT service on Jamaica Ave. was running in 1916.
Perhaps it's wrong.
But it cant be in 1902. Until 1903, the terminal for the J line as it's called today was Van Siclen Ave.
The Crescent Street incline was opened in 1903. Surface cars
to Jamaica ran for less than a year because of neighborhood
opposition.
I believe you. Gotta find that book around my house somewhere to double-check if what i remembr is` actually in there.
Possibly either the Culver or West End Depots??
Two people have gotten the right answer so far. The answer can be arrived at by some deductive reasoning and one of the people noticed a particular clue in the picture that led him to the right answer.
Other than that feature, which I'll explain by August 1 in describing the location and "winners", I'll make a few points that might be in question from the "enhanced" photo.
1) As stated, the date is Summer (specifically August) 1916.
2) As might be guessed, it is a seaside outing.
3) No trolley wire or raised trolley poles.
WHOOPS!
I have to correct myself. BOTH of the people who answered correctly noticed the clue, which I am bound by the spirit of T.S. Williams not to reveal. (Got to keep up the suspense, you know ;-) )
Kinda looks like a campaign train presidential candidates usually use for "whistle stop" tours. And 1916 was an election year. Other than that, I'm completely stumped.
It was an excursion run for the BRT EBA (Employee's Benefit Association--the Company Union). The flags and patriotic bunting were considered appropriate decoration for festive occasions in those days, election or not.
Well here goes that idea.
I'm stumped. Guess I gotta wait til 8/1 like everyone else.
And those colorized marker lights are purely random?
Is that a brick building to the right? If so I'd
guess Rock Park on the LIRR, with that being the inspection
shed, but the fence doesn't make sense
Paul, that's a great shot.
Noticing that there is a trolley pole atop the Gate car, I assume that we are looking at the terminal over by Golden City Park, Canarsie.
My second guess would be Coney Island via the West End (again, because of the trolley pole).
Doug aka BMTman
But the trolley pole isn't being used. Did the joint LIRR/BRT service to Rockaway via the Chestnut St. connection exist in 8/1916? That would allow the gate car to use third rail power, and the LIRR at this pioint did run along the surface, specifically down the middle of Atlantic Ave.
Well, I'm revising my guess.
I forgot that there was still some BRT/LIRR interchanging in 1916 and that the Manhattan Beach Branch of the LIRR was still active.
So my "final answer" (pardon the borrowed quote from Regis) is Manhattan Beach!!
Doug aka BMTman
Several weeks ago a member of the dissident faction of the TWU, New Directions, went to court and got a temporary restraining order, preventing the TA from implimenting provisions of the recently negotiated & ratified Collective Bargaining Agreement. Specifically, this involves the broad-banding of titles in the Division of Car Equipment. The position of the 'Old Guard' TWU is unclear, however, the TA has notified the TWU that effective on July 30, it will take back some of the benifits already given to the TWU members as part of that agreement. As of now, this only involves Car Equipment personnel. Will it spread to RTO, Stations or even Busses?
This goes back to what I said back in December. Due to the Taylor Law, a strike with a signed contract is no more illegal than a strike without one. Once folks get the idea "we are a monopoly, extortion works," and are willing to break the law, there is no reason not to do it continuously.
Hence the need to break up the TA.
I don't see the connection. All sorts of people sign contracts and sue to get out of them later. Morever, no one has struck.
Ugh. The TWU better get it's act together and clean up it's internal mess before these struggles affect the riding public.
Which court? Have you seen the court papers or been told what the plaintiff's theory is? I suppose you can't comment on the validity of the plaintiff's arguments, but I'm kind of curious what was said to obtain the TRO.
Of course, I can not seen the court papers nor do I know for sure in what venue the case is being heard. I assume it's State Supreme Court. As for the validity of the claims of the plaintiff, I'm just another fence-sitter. From the information that has been come from the Labor Relations Department, the suit was filed by one member of New Directions. Additionally, I believe that while the rank-and-file TWU did not file the suit, they have decided to support the suit (or at least not oppose it) although doing so negates the Collective Bargaining Agreement which all parties agreed to and signed.
My original question was to members of the TWU (New Directions) in other operating divisions. Are other similar suits pending and is the CBA in danger of total collapse?
Of course, I have not seen the court papers nor do I know for sure in what venue the case is being heard. (I assume that it's in the State Supreme Court) As for the validity of the issues that are the basis of the suit, I'm just another fence-sitter. From the information that has come from the Labor Relations Department, the suit was filed by one member of New Directions from the Division of Car Equipment. It was not filed by the Transport Workers Union. Additionally, I believe that while the rank-and-file TWU did not file the suit, they have decided to support the suit (or at least not oppose it) although doing so negates the Collective Bargaining Agreement which all parties agreed to and signed.
My original question was to members of the TWU (New Directions) in other operating divisions. Are other similar suits pending and is the CBA in danger of total collapse?
Another, more basic question comes to mind. If a union that represents 35,000 members enter into a Collective Bargaining Agreement, hold a vote on the agreement, and then ratifies the agreement, does one union member (who has appointed that union to negotiate for him/her) then go into court and negate the vote of the majority? I think the issues here have some chilling implications for the US labor movement beyond what happens in the NYCT.
I agree. That was why I was curious as to the legal theory on which the suit was based. Clearly, the plaintiff has to have said more than "I don't like the deal." TROs aren't had just for the asking. Have you heard anything from Labor Relations as to the plaintiff's arguments, or don't they share that sort of information with those outside their department?
No details were given as to the specific points of law used to support the TRO. The TA has aparently taken a very moderate step in that it has voided only the Quid-Pro-Quo segment of the agreement directly linked to the issue of the TRO.
OK; here's the deal. As a member of New Directions I am aware of the issues involved.
The collective bargaining agreement negotiated between the Authority and the Union is done by department so what affects DCE will not neccesarily affect RTO, etc. RTO's contract specificaly did not change at all so it's moot there.
The core of the arguement here is what the union did in the negotiations. Previously an employee in the titles that work within the MAIN shops only (Coney Is. or 207) were craft specific. Ie; an electrician or a pipe fitter. I use the terms loosely for brevity. Formally they are CME, ABM, etc. One of the main points for the Authority was the need for the employees to be able to do multiple discipline work. The new equipment supossedly has systems which cannot be defined along traditional lines of "air brake" or "electrical".
It was negotiated that with training appropriate for multiple tasks, these employees could now be assigned work outside their craft. They would no longer be car maintainers of a specific discipline but car inspectors. Like the employees in the maintainence barns where this has been the practice for generations. In exchange for this provision the union members reccieved a dollar an hour over and above what members in other departments reccieved in the contract's wage hike provisions.
It was many a member's assertion however that the real reason was to increase the productivity of main shop employees. Steve provided a fine example of waste due to the old system of where an electrician would disconnect the wires to a compressor, then an air brake man would disconnect the piping and finally a mechanic would remove the unit entirely. In an inspection barn two car maintainers woud have done the same job in less time. I agreed with that provision and did not argue against it.
However the story doesn't end there.
The contract included the words: "all car inspector positions in the shops are to be considered utility jobs to be assigned by management"
The Authority insisted this language must be included so that they could have the freedom to assign work to the newly reclassified maintainers in other crafts of work.
Only a fool would not realize the full implications of the phrase that management had so very forcefully insisted must be present for the agreement to be signed.
On face value the union had been told and they so gullibly believed this would only affect the main shop personnel. And the words "shops" would seem to support this. Traditionally the "barns" and "shops" are considered seperate. But the Authority lied. More specific: Ralph Agritelly of Labor Relations and Carlo Perciballi of DCE lied. They went ahead and implimented the language on ALL car equipment personel. They used the argument (succesfully in front of an arbitrator) that since ALL DCE personnel reccieved the dollar an hour raise, they are all subject to the "utlity assigned by management" language.
Because it highlights his failure as a union leader Arnold Cherry, the VP of the TWU is trying to ignore this terrible loss. This is a basic failure of what a union is for: equal treatment of all members by management.
Before members could pick individual assignments, and now they are sent to wherever the supervisor decides. Say a particular car inspector does not like descending into the pit beneath the train. He previously had sufficient seniority to pick a carbody job. It entailed door and air condtioning work along with lights and such. But under the new contract if the barn superintendent doesn't like this fellow for any reason, an argument 10 years ago, or because they are of different races. Whatever, now the car inspector can be given the dirtiest, least desireable job in the shop. And there's nothing his seniority can do to stop it. A situation ripe for abuse and favoritism. Prescisely what a union is supposed to protect it's members against!
This was not what the members voted for in the spring. Had they been told the whole truth (which New Directions tried to do) by a union leadership more concerned with a contract victory than what was actually IN the contract it would NOT have passed.
The issue was grieved and lost to an arbitrator. The contract language was quite specific. Any fool who could read could have seen that. So the loss to the arbitrator was a forgone conclusion. New Directions members in DCE are trying to save whatever thay can before it's too late. Management knows this and has rushed to implement the contracual changes as soon as possible to claim it as "past practice" should the New Directions caucus be succesful. Then it would be more difficult to overturn as it would be already be in effect.
So as a last resort weapon the group filed the suit becasuse in their haste the Authority forgot: it's not omnipotent. The rules changes must first be approved by the city's dpeartment of citywide administrative services. And they weren't. The total basis of the suit. Since the Authority's counsel will be away on vacation and when he returns the New Direction's counsel will then be away, the case will be postponed some weeks.
At the last hearing Ralph Agritelly got up and tried to tell the judge that based upon the collective bargaining agreement HE negotiated with the TWU the union had NO arguent. The judge promtly told him that it was irrelevant, they were there to discuss the Authority's violation of civil service laws concerning classification of job titles. Nothing more. I wish all of you could of seen that *&^*ºå©ßð face!
So that's the complete story of what's been going on with this. We shall see in the fall where this leads. All eyes in the labor/managment game will be watching this to see where it goes. The precedents it sets will be felt in all areas for years to come.
Thanks for elucidating the issues. BTW TWU 250 in SF recently turned down the proposed contract 79% against--can we say leadership blew it?
Well at least there the membership of that local was smart enough to do so. Here the fools bought it hook line and sinker.
(Before members could pick individual assignments, and now they are sent to wherever the supervisor decides. Say a particular
car inspector does not like descending into the pit beneath the train. He previously had sufficient seniority to pick a carbody
job. It entailed door and air condtioning work along with lights and such. But under the new contract if the barn superintendent
doesn't like this fellow for any reason, an argument 10 years ago, or because they are of different races. Whatever, now the car
inspector can be given the dirtiest, least desireable job in the shop. And there's nothing his seniority can do to stop it. A
situation ripe for abuse and favoritism.)
It also means that if there are no cars that require carbody work, but four cars that require underbody work, everyone nonetheless keeps working, rather than one person working and four people standing around with nothing to do. Isn't that the idea (or shouldn't it be)?
A competent manager wouldn't assign an employee to work he/she dislikes if he/she can help it, because the work will be done poorly and productivity will go down. In effect, you are accusing management of being incompetent meglamaniacs. That being the case, the right thing to do (from a riders' and taxpayers' point of view) is remove the incompetent managers, not give the workers the right not to work.
>>> In effect, you are accusing management of being incompetent meglamaniacs. <<<
Larry;
One of the main reasons for industrial unions is because the worker who is stuck with an incompetent megalomaniac of a supervisor cannot do anything about it on his own. And such a supervisor is not so easy for management to recognize in the short run as long as productivity is maintained. In non-union jobs these supervisors are recognized because of high worker turnover, which does the individual worker, who is no longer there, no good. In the ideal world of perfect management and perfect workers no unions would be necessary.
Tom
Old Tom says it nicely; in a perfect world...
But really here the problem isn't so much that there isn't work. The union opposes employee's sitting around as well. That leads to worse problems. It's the arbitrary assignments of the work we oppose. For years the car cleaners have not had the ability to choose individual assignments. There have been charges by female car cleaners of sexual harrasment. Some who have refused to go along with the male supervisors advances have been relegated to the worst assignments while other who have had been given the choicest ones. It was this that car inspectors have to fear and what New Directions opposes.
If a union member has the ability to choose the type of work he is doing then he will be free from fear of persecution, and therefore more productive. Producing quality work. Assigments based purely on what managers decide will lead to the things I outlined as well as employee disatisfaction and perhaps high turnover.
With the economy roaring, skilled electricians need not deal with the Authority's meanacing beauracracy, weekend and night work AND a pay cut (almost $10 an hour!)from what they could earn as electricians in the private sector. The no-layoff security that was such an incentive to work here years ago no longer applies.
Considering the new technology coming; the Authorty can ill afford a high turnover of skilled technicians at this time. Unfortunately people Like the ones in charge now still view employees as merely low inteligience, low skill, labor. A commodity to be used. Not the professional technicans they are. As it is they have had a hard time hiring and retaining good people. There's been a test for car inspector at least once a year for a decade now. Considering that the title doesn't have that many people in it, when compared to others in the system which are much larger and test but once every several years, it is out of proportion. That speaks volumes about working conditions.
Something like that sits well with number crunching managers who care little about quality but more about keeping the payroll down. The Authority likes it because newly hired employees make around 30% less than experienced ones do. They have great fnancial incentive to fire as many employees as possible who are at top rate. Or do nothing to retain those who would leave. Length of service, or skill at the job mean nothing to the Authority. You are a car inspector like the next. No better no worse.
I can't wait to see how the R-142 purchase blows up in their face from this.
The WMATA has a proposal to build a new station on the Red Line, located at New York Ave just north of Union Station.
The original projected cost of the station was $75 million, and just been increased to $84 million.
The Red Line was the first to be built on the DC Metro system, about 25 years ago. The tracks at New York Ave have existed and been used for years. Also, the line at that point is ground level, situated between the Amtrak station to the south, and Metro and Amtrak yards to the north. New York Ave passes over the line on a viaduct; there are very few buildings in the vicinity.
So why in the HELL would a new station cost $84 buggin' million dollars?! Looks to me like they need only to build two side platforms, fare control, and an approach to the station (presumably from the bridge, or the corner of NY Ave & 1st St NE). Where's all that money going?
Unbelievably, Congress (which oversees D.C.'s budget) is balking at funding the city's share of the costs.
An $84 million el station? That's even funnier than the $100 million cost estimates for the study of the new Second Ave. subway plan.
[The WMATA has a proposal to build a new station on the Red Line, located at New York Ave just north of Union Station.
The original projected cost of the station was $75 million, and just been increased to $84 million.
The Red Line was the first to be built on the DC Metro system, about 25 years ago. The tracks at New York Ave have existed and been used for years. Also, the line at that point is ground level, situated between the Amtrak station to the south, and Metro and Amtrak yards to the north. New York Ave passes over the line on a viaduct; there are very few buildings in the vicinity.]
And you're complaining? Lemme tell ya, if that station were in New York *City* as opposed to New York *Avenue* (in D.C.), it probably would cost twice that much!
If the Pentagon can blow $9,000 on a 13-cent Allen wrench, well...
07/28/2000
[If the Pentagon can blow $9,000 on a 13-cent Allen wrench, well...]
Was that Allen wrench made of gold ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The tracks north of the Red Line portal north of Union Station diverge to pass the shops. The northbound track goes around the shop building and the southbound passes alongside the building and yard tracks.
The $84 Million estimate may include realignment of Amtrak and CSX tracks, yard trackage and mainline trakage to get both mains parallel,
plus the cost of station constriction, plus access to the station.
I am a professional screenwriter and was recently commisioned to write a screenplay which involves a motorman as one of its main characters. I am hoping that a motorman or someone with the expertise of a motorman could field some technical questions about his/her work.
You can reach me at: projectsnow@aol.com
Ben Odell
Here is a good one: WHEN did the NY Subways [either public or private operators] start hiring more than token [OOPS..very bad pun...] minorities? I was just curious,as in the old pictures you NEVER see minorties as subway employees outside of the occasional porter or whatever. Was this a benefit of city ownership? I know especially the old Interborough was an Irish/WASP bastion for many years, and the BMT/BRT also hired Italians to a great extant [Phil Rizzuto's father was an BRT streetcar motorman for many years.... not ot mention a certain Edward Luciano- but even then - everyone at work knew him as Eddie Lewis, so there must have been some kind of problems even in being Italian back then...]. Did the IND/City hire African-Americans to any great extant? Or was it not until after WWII and unification did this start? Just curious if anyone knows......
My thoughts would be that the IND being completely public [government] owned was the first to hire, to keep it short, black people in jobs allowing advancement. I'd guess this started about WW2 or so; many of the early IND employees were people from the els or steam roads looking for a more secure future. [Not much security in depression years, besides the el people wise that the new IND was planned to replace the line where they worked.] By the time I hired on NCTA in 1965 I'd guess new hires in the operating dept. were about 90% black. My conductor class was 8 or 9; two of us were white. Not that I care, just an illustration and most young white males didn't see glamor in subways; I did, of course, and wages. By the 70's this started to get more balanced . I find it interesting that some Italians made history on the BRT/BMT. I read a story once where an Italian young man wanted to be a BRT streetcar motorman, he went to the BRT office, saw all the red faced Irish youth there; when he went for his turn at applying he was told "We don't hire Eye-talians here" This was published in the News' "I Remember Old Brooklyn" column back in the 70's. Hope this is some help; if nothing else I have to say NYCT was fair in it's hiring; if there was an imbalance at one time it's mostly because there weren't many white/anglos applying, and you couldn't blame the black people for seeing a good opportunity. How many, if any, could have been an engineer on the NY Central or Pennsy back then?
>>> My thoughts would be that the IND being completely public [government] owned was the first to hire, to keep it short, black people in jobs allowing advancement. I'd guess this started about WW2 or so <<<
Ed;
I'm afraid it was more of a manpower shortage rather than any altruistic reasons which was responsible for the hiring of blacks during WWII for anything other than station maintenance jobs. Even if the IND was government owned the prejudice of those doing the hiring prevented open hiring.
>>> By the time I hired on NCTA in 1965 I'd guess new hires in the operating dept. were about 90% black <<<
I think you were seeing the TA trying to make up for past discrimination. In 1963 I hired into a large American corporation. I heard discussions among the supervisors who did the hiring that they would never hire a black person for any job that had interaction with the public. Some of these individuals indicated that they were not personally racist, but that it might offend the customers if they had to deal with black people. This was common thinking prior to 1964, and was one of the reasons blacks and Hispanics were prevented from advancing economically.
In 1964 with the pressure from the civil rights movement and the federal government, the corporation I worked for made an about face, and with directives from the Chairman of the Board of Directors instituted an affirmative action program. For a while most of the new hires were black and Hispanic because lower level managers had targets to meet in increasing the number of minority employees. Even when the corporation had a hiring freeze because of budget reasons, there was an exception for any qualified minority persons who applied for a job. BTW, that corporation is now considered a model of an Equal Opportunity Employer, with minority employees in all ranks of management.
I remember while I was riding the subways during the early 50's I never saw a black motorman, and rarely saw a black conductor. I remember one black CR I saw on the IRT mainline in Manhattan . He had a really sharp uniform which appeared to be tailored, and did his job with pride and style. But he was so unusual at that time, that he left a lasting impression on me.
Tom
Thanks for the correction to my reasoning. I had seen quite a few black people on train crews in the middle and late 50's and the percentage was quite high before l964. But I had thought the reason in earlier years was as I stated but just as well you've proven me wrong. I am in favor of ethnic equal opportunity and bitterly against special favors. I had no more problems with my black brothers than I had with white; No comment please: I do not agree with GENDER based affirmative action in any way. Sorry, my thinking is out of another age, I still think we had better youth when mothers raised children by their husband, not the present world we live in. Keep well, ed.
is this also true for all races of women as well ??
I can't speak specifically to the situation on the New York subways, but many transit systems hired women for operating positions even during World War I. Of course, few if any held on to their jobs, or expected to, once the doughboys were demobilized.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Some of the steam railroads and streetcar systems did too, same reason and eventual disposition in most cases.
>>> the old Interborough was an Irish/WASP bastion for many years <<<
Lou;
This is a contradiction of terms since the overwhelming majority of the Irish in New York were Catholic rather than Protestant.
>>> Did the IND/City hire African-Americans to any great extant? Or was it not until after WWII and unification did this start? <<<
Unification was in 1940 prior to the entry of the United States into WWII. Manpower shortages during the war caused the hiring of blacks more than any altruistic reasons.
A conversation I had with my father (who was born in 1903) in 1952 is illustrative of the thinking at that time. It was similar to what you saw on "All in the Family" between Meathead and Archie Bunker. He was a fuel oil delivery driver at the time. We had just seen an inter-racial couple in Washington Square, and he made a disparaging comment about seeing a white woman with a black man. I asked him if he though blacks were inferior to whites. He said no, he thought blacks were equal, but he believed that there was some natural or divine order of things which made it improper for the races to mix. He further said that even though he liked some of his fellow workers who were black and often joked with them and asked about their families, but they never mixed socially. He would never invite any of them to his house, and they would never invite him to their homes. He also believed that certain jobs were traditionally "white" jobs and others were "colored" jobs. At the company where he worked, all fuel oil delivery drivers were white, but drivers delivering coal were black. When he had worked on a railroad, on steam trains, the engineers were white and the firemen were black. He saw no problem with that arrangement and this attitude was common among whites of his generation. True integration of the transit workforce did not come till the civil rights movement of the 60's.
Tom
What I meant by the "Irish/WASP IRT" was, of course was that while the EXCUTIVES of the Interborough might have been WASPs [in reality, however, August Belmont actually had a JEWISH heritage.....], a good portion of the operating personnel ended up coming from NY's large Irish community [Right Ed??]. The BRT/BMT tended to SLIGHTLY more tolerant,it seems, in keeping with their more forward operating and technical outlook on things....It would also be interesting to see how much the hiring practices mirrored the communties that the two companies mainly served..did the Interborough serve more Irish neighborhoods? The BRT/BMT more Italian neighborhoods? A lot of Italians left Manhattan for Brooklyn and parts of Queens in the 1910's-20's....
Indeed the IRT had the nickname Irish Rapid Transit at one time. And frommy own impartial observation I would say Brooklyn did have a lot more Italian communities.[The Bronx had one only that was known for Italians].The Bronx was heavily Jewish and Irish.* Indeed August Belmont was Jewish, he was one of the famous [or infamous] Rothschilds of Europe. (The Northern Pacific was also a Rothschild railroad.) * reflected by the community I grew up in:Highbridge.
Actually the Belmonts were the agents of the Rothschilds in the US. Their actual family name in Europe had been Schoenberg,which is German for 'beautiful mountain', so when they emigrated here they had changed it to the French version: Belmont. [as an aside, the Marx Brothers mothers name was Schoenberg, and it is a rumor that they were distant relations.....] The reason, of course being: Schoenberg was an obvious Jewish name, while Belmont is a classy French name...]
If I recall correctly, Belmont was 1/2 Jewish.
Doug aka BMTman
August Belmont II was 1/2 Jewish as August Belmont/Schoenberg, his father,married into NY society. What is interesting about a family like the Belmonts is that essentially they made a PILE of money acting as the 'WASP' frontmen for the Jewish Rothschilds in America; investing in various properties and such and taking a big cut of the action. So when a good deal like investing in the operating end of the new NYC subway came along, all Belmont had to do was tap whatever investment funds the Rothschilds had him managing [which even in the late 1800s was HUNDREDS of millions of dollars..in todays terms BILLIONS...] at the time. Today,of course the Rothschilds would be able to do it themselves, but in those days, they wern't allowed in the WASP world that was Wall St. This might SEEM off-topic, but remember without a Belmont to invest in the equipment, etc needed to run the IRT [not to mention the financial clout to buy up all the el lines so they could be intergrated into the system, AND the clout to help finance the contractors too], the subway might never have been built, or at least would have been much more limited....
I've done some background research on the Rothchilds some years ago as a long-time family friend came from a branch of that family. The majority of the Rothchild wealth at the time of Belmont and the first subway was from sugar-crops of the Carribean. They were/are a major importer of rum into the Western hemisphere.
Doug aka BMTman
Also, you know what I meant about unification...actually, according to Cudahy [and in this forum bigedirt...] The three divisions really didn't change very much for a long time after 1940.It wasn't until the TA was created that things really started to come together.......
[He also believed that certain jobs were traditionally "white" jobs and others were "colored" jobs.]
I recently inherited a copy of the St. Louis _Post-Dispatch_ from April 14(?) 1945 (the one which reported FDR's death). Out of curiosity, I was looking at the classifieds. Jobs were divided into male and female categories. And maybe one-quarter of the jobs in each category, though more on the male side, were further subdivided into white or colored.
I don't know if that sort of explicit racial categorizing was common nationwide in 1945, or just in the southern or border states like Missouri. I do know that male-female categories existed at least until the late 1960's in many areas.
In my visit to Chicago in l96l, and I believe still in my 1963 visit, I saw want ads that specified white or "colored".
St Louis is pretty much a Southern town, even today....
The Independent System was the first to have significant numbers of black operating personnel because the jobs were civil service.
It's weird to think of these days, but many corporations and industries had preferences and prejudices for/against specific ethnic or religious groups in hiring, not just racial groups.
My late mother-in-law used to complain that the Pennsylvania RR favored Catholics in hiring and promotion. Is that true? It's human nature to blame external factors (such as discriminatory practices) for your own lack of advancement, which may or may not be true. She worked for the Pennsy for many years.
I don't know about the PRR, but I have read that the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee was regarded as something of a Roman Catholic bastion. (I'm basing this on an article some years back in _First and Fastest_, which I can't locate at the moment.)
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
(I don't know about the PRR, but I have read that the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee was regarded as something of a Roman Catholic bastion.)
A lot of "better" jobs were filled through friends and relatives back then, so any grouping became self-reinforcing.
One of my favorite quotes (about the carpenters union not having any Blacks) "We're not racist. There are no Blacks because we used to be racist, but now it's just nepotism." The quoter pointed to a black person in the union, married into a family and became a relative of an existing carpenter.
One thing I've noticed is that the NYC subway doesn't seem to employ many Hispanics. Most workers, at least those in positions in the public eye, are black or white, with what seems like an increasing number of Asians too. But Hispanics are relatively few and far between despite accounting for a significant portion of the city's population.
(One thing I've noticed is that the NYC subway doesn't seem to employ many Hispanics. Most workers, at least those in
positions in the public eye, are black or white, with what seems like an increasing number of Asians too. But Hispanics are
relatively few and far between despite accounting for a significant portion of the city's population).
Here comes a dirty little secret. Hispanics do not get government jobs, period. They are not in the network, which once favored white ethinics (each which their own trade) and now, in some cases, includes Blacks. In some cases this is intentional. Blacks who do not do well in school got into the GED network, Hispanics just dropped out. So they created a high school diploma requirement for the sanitation department. You go to other places with large Hispanic populations, and Hispanics followed the Italians in that trade, but not here.
New people and new businesses are screwed in NYC, but Hispanics/Latinos are even more screwed.
Way back when the pre-1960s transit system employed large amounts of Irish-Americans, many Italian-Americans were employed as trackwalkers and carpenters. They mostly came from one region of Italy whose name escapes me now.
Believe it or not Northern Pacific had Italian track laborers; with the result a good sized little Italy right in Livingston, Montana.Many of their sons moved upwards and became engineers, Indendi, Caruso to name a few. Likewise there was Dale Guidi and Phil Polillo in the shops, and there were many others.Didn't expect that in the west, did you?
"One thing I've noticed is that the NYC subway doesn't seem to employ many Hispanics."
You are stating generalities that are simply not true. In addition you are comparing apples and oranges (if you'll permit the mixed metephore). Blacks and whites are races. Hispanics are nationalities. Hispanics can be either white or black. Now you can agree or disagree with my over-simplication. In the meantime, based on the demographics of my work group, you are totally incorrect.
["One thing I've noticed is that the NYC subway doesn't seem to employ many Hispanics."
You are stating generalities that are simply not true. In addition you are comparing apples and oranges (if you'll permit the mixed metephore). Blacks and whites are races. Hispanics are nationalities. Hispanics can be either white or black. Now you can agree or disagree with my over-simplication. In the meantime, based on the demographics of my work group, you are totally incorrect.]
That was my comment you quoted, not Larry's. At any rate, my comment was not based on any sort of statistical data, just on my observations of "visible" transit workers (mainly station agents and conductors). Note that I said "seem." If my observations are not correct, I stand corrected.
At the risk of getting off-topic, Hispanics may not be a race, but in most cases they are visually identifiable as Hispanics. Some of them do look black, especially in NYC for some reason, and a few of them look white. But most look Hispanic, even though it's not a race.
Aren't Hispanics mixed between white and the native peoples of Central and South America, such as the Aztecs?
In many cases yes. I once read that some 90% of Mexicans have Indian blood; likewise some of the Caribbean Hispanics, likewise Haitians and in a similar vein many Cubans and Puetro Ricans are mixed black and white, Indian, etc. I had a motorman friend who was Puerto Rican who was pure black and likewise another who was pure white. I was in Spain 2 years ago, saw that they use the word "Hispano" there [I speak the language] and didn't see anybody in Valencia, Barcelona, or in between who looked like the American city concept of Hispanic.
Race and ethnicity are weak constructs. The orignial idea was that race was biological (skin color, hair shape), but ethnicity was cultural.
Then Hispanics starting putting "other" on the race question, so they were added as an official race ("of Hispanic origin"). Hispanic, or course, now includes people with not only different colors but also different cultures.
Then there is "Asian." South Asians were once considered white (Italians and Jews were once considered non-white), but then they moved into the Asian category.
And, of course, the human geome project pretty much showed that the genetic variations among humans are teensy weensy compared with other animals, blowing the race thing up further.
Getting back to the issue, it appears that the transit system was once operated primarily by people whose ancestors came from Europe between 1840 and 1920, with a post-1960 transition to people whose ancesters were slaves in the American south prior to 1860 and came to New York from 1920 to 1970. These have been joined by those who came from, or had ancestors who came from the English speaking Caribean.
But, few people whose ancestors came from Spanish speaking Caribean Island work on the subway, relative to their share of the population. And that is true of other government jobs as well.
[Getting back to the issue, it appears that the transit system was once operated primarily by people whose ancestors came from Europe between 1840 and 1920, with a post-1960 transition to people
whose ancesters were slaves in the American south prior to 1860 and came to New York from 1920 to 1970. These have been joined by those who came from, or had ancestors who came from the English speaking Caribean.]
To make it more specific, I would say that going back to its 1904 origins, the transit system was operated primarily by (1) the children, grandchildren and in some cases great-grandchildren of people who fled the potato famine in Ireland, and (2) people who emigrated from southern and eastern Europe following the opening of large-scale immigration in the 1880's, and their children.
While you have some valid points on what constitutes a race as opposed to a nationality -- still it is my observation, and that of others -- that Hispanics overall do not hold the more visible T/O or C/R positions in NYCT. The vast majority of T/Os and C/Rs tend to be black of either American or Carribean origin (some being women), Jewish, and Irish or Italian with a sprinkling of Asian. That seems to be the overall breakdone.
Another factor that hasn't been mentioned here is the simple fact that Puerto Rico DOES NOT have a subway system (and not much of a bus system either), so people from that island nation tend not to gravitate toward the mass transit industry since it is something 'alien' to their cultural upbringing. Any thoughts here?
Doug aka BMTman
[Another factor that hasn't been mentioned here is the simple fact that Puerto Rico DOES NOT have a subway system (and not much of a bus system either), so people from that island nation tend not to gravitate toward the mass transit industry since it is something 'alien' to their cultural upbringing. Any thoughts here?]
Yet there are plenty of transit workers from other Caribbean islands, which don't have subways either.
IIRC, there is either a subway or light rail system under construction in San Juan.
[Yet there are plenty of transit workers from other Caribbean islands, which don't have subways either.
IIRC, there is either a subway or light rail system under construction in San Juan.]
That's true, but remember, American-born blacks were T/O's and C/R's before the Carribean-born blacks entered the system. So the doors were opened to them through their American-born brethren. Hispanics don't have someone to 'open the doors' for them, so to speak.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, the nature of the NYCT is such that jobs are eagerly sought so not widely advertised. Therefore, if jobs in RTO are opening up, it's RTO people who know first. Hence, they will let their friends and relatives know about the openings - friends and relatives who will likely be of the same ethnicity. This explains why there are so many Indians (near east) in the Department of Supply Logistics or why so many Russians are taking entry level jobs within the Division of Car Equipment. While I'm sure that the TA has not intended to do so, this word-of-mouth advertising of job openings tend to be self regulating when it comes to diversity.
(Doug, the nature of the NYCT is such that jobs are eagerly sought so not widely advertised. While I'm sure that the TA has not intended to do so, this word-of-mouth advertising of job openings tend to be self
regulating when it comes to diversity. )
There is something to be said for friends and relatives -- sometimes they work a little harder so as not to reflect badly on the person who gave them the break.
Still, the blue collar jobs at the TA pay more than virtually any other job that does not require a college diploma. It follows that the TA should be getting the absolute smartest, hardest working folks in that category. A little more advertizing would probably be a good idea.
Larry, I agree totally. When I first went to work for the NYCT, I was a "walk-in", not told in advance of any job openings. However, several other groups were networking to fill those spots.
Has anyone been able to explain this odd subway phenomenon:
Let's say you're on a D train and you're sitting in a two seater facing the front of the train. Directly in front of you are the three seats along the wall and then the subway door. The opposite subway door has a weird person leaning against it. You turn your head to the right and look into your window. You see the people in the two seater across from you. Then you slowly move your head to the left but continue looking in the window and you see the weirdo leaning against the subway door!
This should be impossible because if this were a normal mirror, it would not be able to reflect beyond its 'range of vision'. Yet, because it is a subway magic mirror it can reflect things even out of that range.
Does anyone have a scientific explanation? Has anyone else wondered about this or noticed it?
"Has anyone else wondered about this or noticed it?"
I've noticed it on the Chicago system when the train is in the subway or when it's dark outside. No explanation, though.
Any reflective surface is like this. If you can see the mirror from any point, then the mirror can "see" you. Like with the door, If you are standing at the door, you can see the window from the door. Therefore, you should be able you see the reflection of the door from the mirror.
Right. And furthermore, Josh ...
The fact that you have to turn your head a little to see Weird Guy is also important.
That's because light bounces away from any flat, reflective surface at the same angle at which it arrived, but in the opposite direction.
So when you look directly, flush, at the window, at a 90-degree angle, you see the light from your face and everything directly behind it (the other two-seater), all of which is traveling to and bouncing back from the window at roughly the same 90-degree angle.
But when you turn your head a little to the left and look at the window from a lower angle, you see light that's coming in at a low angle from the opposite direction: from the doors further down the car.
If you jam the right side of your face right up against the window and look at it almost sideways (from a VERY low angle), you'll see stuff way down at the other end of the car.
Although, maybe you should keep an eye on Weird Guy instead!
I've noticed it too, but never really gave it any thought.
Does the LA Metro use some sort of ATO or ATC? What types of ATO/ATC do BART and the LA Metro use? Is it like the DC Metro type with very exact control and drivers who provide balast or is it like PATCO or the old Times Square Shittle with very bacic ATO and the driver can and must take control of the train at times? Also does anyone have information regarding signal aspects? I checked nycsubway.org, but the info I neded was not there.
what is ato & atc ?? then maybe i can look it up for los angeles ...see what i can do...
I believe los angeles has manual controls with one leaver throttle up brake down etc..
the speedometer suggests the max. speed etc..
does that answer you question??
LA Metro trains are manually controlled by a train operator on the left side of the cabs. I am not sure whether they are set up for eventual conversion to ATO.
BART is completely automatic, except for horn blowing, announcements, and door closing. The train operator punches the door close button wen it is safe to do so, then the master computer over in Oakland takes over from there. Sometimes a train will have taken a longer time than normally alotted at a station, and then the computer system will "run" it faster where space permits. (Normally, the trains run 65-70 miles an hour, but will be pushed up to 80, which is what they used to do tops all the time.)
In case of emergency the BART can be operated by the driver
the los angeles red line can be operated with one lever for brakes & throttle or with computer like i saw in atlanta !! ( my observations of the motorman )..
In part 3 of jersey Mike asks pointless questions about railfans, today i ask, what is the most extreme thing you have done. This is a relitive "extreme" compared to everything else you have done as a railfan so I expect you all to post. examples would include jumping down onto the LIAR tracks to get a better shot of an Amtrak E60 or building a motormans cab in your bedroom or even stealing a subway train. For me it would be either "salvageing" a whole can of spikes or schleping a 4 slug piece of rail over a rod to my car.
"I'm sorry officer. After I put this KLA-5 air horn on the roof of my car I felt obliged to whistle at all grade crossings. Hey, what are you going to use that knight stick for?"
I'd say walk between two R44 cars on the SIR, while the train was leaving track 9 of the Saint George Terminal. I've also walked between two R68 cars on the FAS.
A couple things come to mind:
- While passing between the cars on a train of CTA 2600's in the long subway stretch on the Blue Line between Division and Clark/Lake, I paused for a few seconds while between the cars to fully appreciate the awsome roar of the train through the tunnel.
- Before leaving Chicago I "borrowed" a mylar route map from an empty Green Line train at East 63rd/Cottage Grove. (Said route map now proudly hangs above my desk here at work, four feet behind me as I type this.)
- While riding the Red Line here in Boston, on occasion I've been known to wait at a station while one or two trains pass me by so that I might catch one of the Bombardier 01800-series trains.
- Oh, and then there was the time I wandered away from a church field trip in Atlanta so that I could ride the MARTA train. See my posting on the "Subfans vs. Railfans" thread about that little excursion.
-- David
Boston, MA
Weren't the 2600s built without threshold plates at the storm doors? I have a Tribune article when those cars were being delivered and IIRC it said something to that effect.
Other than changing a rollsign once on a BMT standard, I really haven't done anything radical such as riding between cars, unless you want to consider relieving oneself on a stairway leading to a platform extreme.
I suppose this could qualify as something extreme.
My sister used to live in Forest Hills just off Queens Blvd. between the 75th Ave. and Union Turnpike stations, and being the express addict I am, I would walk over to Union Turnpike to catch an express to Manhattan (usually an F, when it used to run express beyond Continental Ave.) Same deal when heading to Queens - I always looked for a green-over-green aspect at the switch before 75th Ave. Although E trains were supposed to skip 75th Ave. after the Archer Ave. line opened, there were times when they would stop there during middays. If they did, I would get off at 75th; otherwise, I try to get an express and get off at Union Turnpike.
07/28/2000
Okay, I gues it's my turn.
I guess one of the most extreme thing I done as a railfan was about 20 years ago when Steve Zabel was a motorman on the Franklin Shuttle. On a couple of weekends, he spread the word that with the possible shutdown of the shuttle, he would bring his sign box and have the R-27/30's signed up as the #7. Well one weekend, when on a break and the trainset was running with the #7 route sign on the south end, Steve, another railfan and I walked the the southbound tunnel where the Malbone St. wreck occurred. It was a lenghty walk, luckily a train didn't use it, we didn't have vests on. We got our shots of the southbound train signed up #7 crossing over the switch to our delights. Also there was a posed shot with Steve operating at Botanic Garden with the tunnel brickwork in full view and the southbound signed up #13 Fulton St/Prospect Park.
Honorable mention was awarded to me by Glenn Smith on the frigid night when the Archer Ave. extension opened and before riding the first train, I took some time lapse shots of Broadway/Myrtle at the very north end of the platform showing the untouched Myrtle Ave "el" platform. I guess Glenn was making reference to the unsafeness of the neighborhood for me to be using photo equipment. He said I should be awarded the "Brass Balls" award. I guess we all do extreme things to enjoy this hobby.
Bill "Newkirk"
Taking in the West End line (with a cold one in hand) from between A-ends of a Slant R40 "B" train. (N.B. we don't do these kinds of things any more).
wayne
When I was a teenager in the 1980's I took an all day bus/rail/bus/rail/ferry/rail trip arround the New York area, from my home in Levittown. Let's see:
MSBA (now MTA LI Bus) bus N49 or N50 to Hicksville LIRR
LIRR to Jamaica
E to 71st Av-Forrest Hills
F to 34th St.
PATH to Hoboken, NJ
NJ Transit/Metro-North to Suffern (I wanted to go to Harriman, but I don't think there was way back!)
TOR busses to White Plains, Westchester Bee-Line bus to Rye (I don't recall the route umbers)
Metro North to Bridgeport, CT
Ferry to Port Jefferson
LIRR back to Hicksville, where mom picked me up.
It must have taken like 9 hours! It wasn't cheap either.
I have only done a few things in my life which even come close to extreme, and none of them involve being a railfan.
The one thing I do AS a railfan (and also as a person who could use a little exercise) (other than post to this site) is to walk a few miles out of my way every week to take all different subway lines, not just the F to the A, on my way to and from work.
Well, almost 30 yeas ago, a friend and I raided the shop tracks at Southern Pacific's Taylor Yard in Los Angeles. There was a wrecked Baldwin switcher with one of the old single-note cow horns. We liberated the horn, and then reinstalled it on an EMD SW1500 that worked a local in a suburb of Los Angeles. (The crew LOVED it....)
The Nathan P-3 horn off that switcher, we took and put onto one of the Santa Fe F7's on the San Diegan. THAT drew some attention, as it was just after Amtrak took over, and rumors abounded that the AT&SF F-units were being maintained by SP at Taylor (no, they weren't...) So
then we had this HUGE Leslie S-5TR from the Santa fe F-unit.
My friend worked in an automotive body shop, so he CHROMED the Leslie S-5TR horns. We then went on an excursion up to the San Francisco area....it as just after the SP took their Fairbanks-Morse Trainmasters out of service and replaced them with EMD SDP-45's. We put that big, chromed Leslie horn on one of them, right on the ready tracks at the SanJose roundhouse (it was during a SF Giants baseball game, and the SF Giants were winning...so the roundhouse folks were well occupied!)
While walking on the Slateford Cuttoff in North jersey (for those of you who don't know it includes the largest earthen railway embankment in the world, 5 miles long and 100 feet high) I saw quite a sight. the roW has 2 tracks bets. One still has ties (and trees) the 0ither is an 4WD route. I see this light heading toward us and its like an old ford bronco. The SUV is painted in EL colours and is sporting a missive locomotive air horn set over the rear. we asked the guy to blow it, but he said it wasn't hooked up (we did notice compressed air cylinders in the back). I still don't know if he was a railfan. the suv wasn't overtly painted in EL and the air hour could have just been a find. because there is no was to pass on the big fill the state motor vehicle code states that the car with the lagest horn has the right of way and the other guy has to back up.
--Walked the Montauk Branch tracks from Glendale to Fresh Pond. It was a Sunday, so not much chance of traffic, but the tracks are active, officially.
--This spring I walked the Rock Branch tracks with Mark W and other railfans. The route is occasioanlly treacherous. At Ozone Park, the other guys shinnied up the signal towers to get on the tracks, but I saved my 42 year old knees and did not join them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Walking thru the Spuyten Duyvil rock cut on the present day MN back around l966 or so with a friend. Only way to get from there to Marble hill; good night what if there were a train in both directions; in l957 walking the trestle from South Amboy to Pert Amboy after visiting the K4 steamers *.(age l4) Guess I'd rather watch somebody else's videos at my age; anything for a picture is history! But crazy enough I'd never get between rails laying down for a dead head on shot like some I've seen.[* thank heavens for the offsets at the outer edge of the tracks]
I know as a kid, I also crossed Spuyten Duyvil when the bridge operator held the bridge closed for a rare train going downtown...Then I walked to Marble Hill...From there, got the IRT back to Washington Heights and did the Leonardo DeCaprio thing since the front door was unlocked..Boy was that TO hot!!!
I was thinking about a way to get a head on shot by using a cheap camera, a remote shutter control, a tripod, a rope and some foam padding.
When super 8 movie cameras came out, a friend's cousin taped his redundant 8 mm camera to a crosstie just south of 30th St station to get a head-on shot of a PRR Washington to NYC train. The ensuing film was outstanding: the approaching GG1, then the automatic aperture letting in more light as the train went over, then seeing the results of a toilet being flushed coming closer, then SPLAT! About 2 seconds of film remained after the lens got splashed. It was one of the most memorable railfan movies I've seen.
Bob
Setup a cheap , disposable mirrow. It will get smashed into smitterenes. Set it at about 45' , stand on the side .... Lights Camera .....action
avid.
P.S. the kind hung on closet doors does very nicely.
Had sex in the last car of a R68 N train at
2 in the morning.Does that count?
>>> Had sex in the last car of a R68 N train at 2 in the morning. Does that count? <<<
Sorry Domingo, you are disqualified for being in the last car. This activity counts only if you are at the railfan window, and fully aware of what is happening in front of the train. (Otherwise you are just a horny guy) :-)
Tom
Amtrak was rebuilding mainline track 3 between Villanova and Radnor and I was taking super 8 movies. I planted myself between the rails of track 1, looked toward Paoli and saw clear track (to the curve over the P&W tracks at least), then decided that that was extremely foolish and got off the track. I now have an old movie of the working track machinery with a Paoli-Philly Septa train roaring past a few feet in front of the camera.
Missed out on the Darwin award.
Bob
At and early age, summers would be partially spent at grandmas house in Scranton Pa. We still had a lot of relatives living there at that time, so I could bounce around from one side of the family to the other. I'd hang out with cosins and friends my own age and to kid things, both good and not so good.
I remember back in '55, August 19th to be exact. Hurricane DIANE hit the drought parched northeast. I was down at my grandmas on my fathers side of the family that afternoon and evening. I spent the day with my younger cousin Mike in the house watching the 4 tv channels that were availible at that time. That night we had Grandmas chicken soup and homemade Kluski noodles. HEAVEN!
It poured all dayand later that evening my uncle Butch {Stanly} drove my back up the East mountain to my other grandmas where I was staying. It pour all that night. It was raining hader that a cow wizzing on flat rock.
The next morning the entire Northeast had been hit with floods that I don't beleive have been matched since. The flooding caused the local water to be contaminated. the bridges through the "water gap were knocked out. I was marroned in Scranton. I thought it was great!
We all , the entire population had to get shots for typhoid ,tetnus
and boil water for hours it seemed. The worst part was that the city officials had to close the municiple swimming pools. South side pools was just down the hill from my grandmas. The days suddenly got longer with nothing to do.
The Laural Line, a local Interurban that ran between Wilksberra and Scranton , had gone under a few years early, but the tracks were still used to run scrape and other freight between the two cities. It had a tunnel right near the pool. It ran right under my grandmas house. We used to watch the trains go bby, they really had no set schedual. The tunnel was always a lure to kids, Including us . My cousins and I would some times go "over town" { down to the main part of town around Lackawanna Ave } for a movie or something.
We were to cheap to take a busto or from town. It was down hill going to town, but up hill the way back.
I know some of you had rough childhoods and had to walk to school barefoot in the snow , uphill bothways. We weren't that poor. We had hills both up and down.
After hanging out "over town" we would some times head for the town side of the tunnel , were the tracks made a sharp turn and the trains had to slow. We had several choices. Walk through the tunnel. We usually had a box of wooden matches amoungst us for light. In the tunnels there were four manholes cut into the rock , where we could all squeeze if a train came. The tunnel is about a quarter of a mile of so long. We would always count off the manholes, look over our shoulders and try to scare the bejesus out of each other. We never did get caught in the tunnel, but heard from some kids who claimed they did. Another choice was to wait for the occasional train. Some days had two or four trains a day. One or two in each direction. I remember lucking out one day . As we walked along the tracks we heard one coming from town to the tunnel. We scattered into the brush along the trackside to hide . As the train past we broke cover and ran along side . The train was about six or eight cars long. It had some gondolas, box cars and , lucky us the last few cars were hoppers. These are the best for hopping. They afforded a lot of room. So we ran along side , grabbed the grab irons and climbed up. For kids it a higer grab and climb. YOUTH CONQUERS all, we all made it . We were all grinning like idiots and all scared. The noise in the tunnel was loud . We wacthed the portal grow smaller as we went deeper into the tunnel, and as we made a slight curve the darkness was complete. The deisel was an S-2 or S-3 , it was a long time ago.
I think the crew knew we where on board , because when we reached the other end they sped up , making it harder to get off then it was getting on. The trick was to climb down holding on and running like hell. The last one off had to really go.
We luaghed like all get out , but we were still a little scared. Then it was just up the hill and we were home. We saved about a 40 -45 minute walk.
avid
O
I also enjoy tunnel walking. My life time goal is to walk through all 7 Reading tunnels. I have already walked the 3000 foot Mahanoy on new years eve many years ago (the ice was amazing) and the 1000 foot Dillenger tunnel on some sunday past. This summer i plan to walk the out of service Rockhill tunnel on the bethlehem branch. that will only leave the Lofty (abandonned), Tamaqua (Reading and Northern) and the 2 toughest Black Rock and Flat Rock. The "Rocks" are on the NS harrisburg Line and will involve some planning to get through w/o being arrested etc. I think I'll go on a holiday and wait for a train to pass and then follow it at a run. Both are under 1000 feet so it is possible.
Keep a juandice eye out for the Kingfish, he craves bbq bat wings
avid
...and will involve some planning to get through w/o being arrested etc.
Mike, you're no railfan, you're the kind of person who gives real railfans a bad name.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A cow wizzing on flat rock?!? LOL
07/28/2000
[The Laural Line, a local Interurban that ran between Wilksbarre and Scranton , had gone under a few years early, ]
Avid,
Anything left of the old Laurel Line, any traces ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, quite a bit. I believe that it's the Laurel Line route (and the tunnel described in an earlier post) whose ROW is being revived for the trolley line of the Lackawanna Trolley Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The most extreme thing I can say that I did was to wake up early in the morning, drive to East 34th Street and Prospect Avenue in Bayonne by using the Verrazano Bridge (it would take longer via the cheaper Manhattan route) and riding the HBLR and PATH into town. On the way back I took a detour to West Side Avenue before going back to 34th to go home.
In my teenaged pre-driving days of the seventies, I hit all five boroughs in one day:
Q16 from Francis Lewis & Willets Point to Union & Bayside;
Q44 to Hugh Grant Circle;
'6' express to 125th Street;
'4' or '5' to Bowling Green;
Ferry to Saint George;
R102 (now S44) to Port Richmond (then just plain Richmond) & Post;
R4 (now S59) to Richmond & Arthur Kill;
R113 (now S74) to Richmond Road & Lincoln Avenue;
R111 (now S51) not running, so walked to Grant City SIRT station;
SIRT to Saint George;
Ferry to Whitehall;
Walked to Bowling Green; '4' or '5' to 14th/Union Square;
'L' (R27/30) to Lorimer Street;
'G' (R10) to Queens Plaza;
'F' (R46, of course!) to 179th Street;
Q76 to Francis Lewis & Willets Point.
Of course, this was during Easter vacation, so everything was on a regular weekday schedule.
I did ride various subways (with the help of the Q113 from Jamaica to Far Rockaway) touching Far Rockaway, Coney Island and 205th Street all in one afternoon, again on a weekday schedule. As it was midday, the 'A' ran local through Brooklyn. Even though I hit the Concourse by rush hours, and passed at least one 'C' along CPW, the 'D' stopped at 135th Street and ran local all the way to 205th.
My friend and I rode between diesel cars all the way from Babylon to Patchogue. We tried to do the same thing from Huntington to Port Jeff, but the conductor caught us and ordered us inside. I wouldn't dare trying that on the Oyster Bay's Jamaica-to-Mineola express.
In March 1995, I rose at 5:00 and drove over an hour in pre-dawn darkness to Denville in order to get the outbound 7:06 over the newly opened NJT extension to Hackettstown. (I told my wife I had an 'early meeting' in Jersey- well, that was KINDA the truth!) The train, the first morning Morris & Essex out of Hoboken, was actually very crowded with the suit 'n' briefcase set. They all seemed to get off at the new office complex at Mount Olive.
After a half-hour layover at Hackettstown, I got to ride inbound over the Boonton branch for the first time; at the time it was possible to do an afternoon round trip on this branch only between Hoboken and Lincoln Park. I'd never ridden the stretch inbound between Mountain Lakes and Towaco before.
Just enough time at Hoboken to catch the train back to Denville over the much better-ridden Morristown branch. Kept nodding off after Short Hills; almost left sweatshirt behind scrambling off at my stop.
As I drove back over the newly-opened stretch of NJ24 between I-287 (Morristown) and I-78 (Springfield), I couldn't help thinking, "Boy, the lengths I go to to indulge my hobby."
Shortly afterward, my wife and I discovered we were expecting, so this was my last expedition for a LONG time.
I guess for me it would be when I rode on the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation. (the part W/O Bway) It was also the last day of operation for the "Q" cars. As a souvenir I took a whole cane/wicker seat cushion with me. I carried that seat on the "J" from Myrtle to Sutphin (the old el station, not the underground one on Archer), the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hempstead Bus Company from Hempstead to East Meadow. (predecessor of MSBA's N-48,49 route) People were giving me and that seat funny looks but at least I had a seat the whole way!!!! (in a way)
There was this old Conrail blue & yellow FL9 on the deadline at Croton North. I actually went up inside the carbody and took a first hand look at a partially disassembled 567 diesel engine. I was tempted to take a souvenir with me - but I was already deep into "Trespassing strictly forbidden" territory and figured I'd rather not have to explain anything in my hands to MNCRR police who might have been observing.
Being a bit mischievous, and like so many others, I have changed roll signs on various trains. When the R32s were brand new, I made alot of confusion out of the signage on a Q train. I think I had it terminating at Smith/9th Streets - and that as a TT West End Local.
I did something similar with an A train of R10s going over the flats.
There was plenty of time, but not so much variety on the roll signs.
Only the slightest bit of fear kept me from changing the bulkhead sign on that A train. I was scared someone in another car would see me. My car was empty.
And the R-10s would have thundered their disapproval at being signed up as anything other than an A.:-)
Well, lets see...
1. Ride "between the slants" thru 63rd, 60th, 14th st. tunnels, and over the Manny B.
2. Ride in vestibule (and occasionally flip up trapdoors) on NJT, LIRR, and Metro-North, sometimes with doors open while going 60MPH.
3. Turn out all the vestibule lights on NJT.
4. Strategically avoid the conductor on an LIRR train to avoid paying.
5. Unlock and pass between cars on the R-44/46/68 trains.
6. Cross between cars (the cab ends) on an LIRR M-1 while going 80+ MPH.
7. Walk across all 4 mainline LIRR tracks near Forest Hills (all the while watching the tracks, not haphazardly).
8. Ride around City Hall loop on all current IRT car classes (except R-110A).
9. Ride around South Ferry inner loop on all current IRT car classes (except R-142, R-110A, R-36). While there, I changed the side and bulkhead signs to 5 South Ferry (side only on R-62). Since I always did it right before rush hour, the side's southern destination was wrong anyway. Also changed the marker lights to something other than Red-Red, but not involving white.
10. Sit in rear cabs on redbirds, R-62as, R-68/as, R-46s.
11. Finally, hit the switch unlocking all storm doors of an R-68a, causing a 15 minute delay on the 'B' line while the C/R and T/O looked for the turned switch. I thought it only unlocked the immediate door, not all of them (including cabs). Never did that again.
I do not do items numbered 6 or higher anymore.
i once went on a trip with 8 subtalkers, who all managed to get a day pass from their mental hospitals... what made it really scary was that "franklin shuttle" doug was leading the trip...
What's so scary about that?
It's not like I live in the Bates Motel or something!
And nor do I share my apartment with components from antique railcars, thank you verrrrry much!
I might have an unusual inkling to find a way to include a ride on the Franklin Shuttle every now and then, but does that constitute insanity? I sincerely hope not.
As it turns out I have to get going now. I have an R-68 to catch at Botanic Garden station....
Adios,
Doug aka BMTman
Heard on the channel 7 news at noon that there was a wall collapse on a construction site at 55th and Broadway. They said subway service was disrupted but never mentioned which lines. I'm assuming the west side IRT (1,2,3,9)which runs through that area was most affected.
Anyone know anything else about this morning's mess?
are there any subway web cams that one could access via the internet like the one at times square either of the stations or train yards ?
Are there any current track maps for the SIRT online?
The Track Map on this site is from 1949. That seems to be the only one I can find online. There is one in Peter Dougherty's book. It' from September 1999.
Not that hard, Peter's is a little out of date. The updated the crossovers on the line. There is 2 or three now between Great Kills and Eltingville, they put in a MOW siding RR West of Great Kills.
Outside of St. George Terminal, the wye, crossovers, Tompkinsville/Clifton MOW areas and Tottenville it is not that much then double track and a few MOW sidings.
Siding isn't for MOW, it's a hold track for trains that originate or terminate at GK. Allegedly, the schedule will be changed in September, and again when the new signla system comes on-line. Said to include 15-minute service St. George-GK or Huguenot between the rush hours.
-Hank
Electrified hold track at Great Kills makes for cumbersome reverse manuever to proceed to St. George, unless SIR installs second turnout to St. George track. Also crossover between New dorp and Oakwood has been eliminated. This long discussed new signal system will give the SIR reverse signal capability, but for what purpose on a 2-track line?
I guess is service needs to go out on one track. Trains would run to the next crossover and go back to normal service.
They're doing some single-track right now, and have to use the "written-paper gets passed to engineer"/"radio that train is in single-track segment" methoods.
I know there are Motorman/Engineers on this page,,can any of you assist me to obtain the drawings to update Peter D.s Book
Thank you
Steve Lowenthal
Do you have an updated version,or can you draw an updated version,,where the changes are located
I should have been more specific when i asked about "The Park Avenue Tunnel" Specific meaning Rail or Auto, but then I though....."This is a "Rapid/Rail" discussion board not surface, so they should know what I mean. So I'll ask another way. I was looking at a calender purchased a while back, and while thumbing through it I came to the month November and stopped. It was a photo of a tunnel with a few IRT low- Vs painted nicely with a banner in front, with an article saying this..........................
Celebration of the Diamond Jubilee (75th anniversary) in 1979 was represented by a five car set of LOW-Vs painted in the 1904 tuscan red scheme. To finish this out, a flat car was outfitted with wood benches and painted like wise. This was to recreate the ceremony of dignitaries who witnessed the opening of the New York City's first subway. Shown in the seldom used "PARK AVENUE TUNNEL", the special on a test run, will recreate part of the inagural run. This tunnel was the down town side for the original subway before instituting the "H" system.
I know about the history. You know the inaugural run and all. But My question in where is this seldom used tunnel? The photo was taken in 1979. The track in the photo has a wide area ajacent to the track with 20 Frogs (the part of the track where the train crosses over) laying. The track has a third rail there too. Now is there a Park Avenue(rail) tunnel next to the Park Avenue (Auto) Tunnel? Where is this tunnel at? I used to work in that part of the subway for about 3 years, and I don't recall it.
The only thing I can think of is the tunnel connection between the downtown No. 6 local tracks as Track 1 (furthest south track) on the Grand Central shuttle. That connection was part of the original line and is the only one left -- tracks 2, 3 and 4 were severed when the new Grand Central express stop and the uptown Lexington Ave. line was completed.
Wasn't a tower built on the old track bed, blocking train movement?
Is there still a switch connecting the track to the Lex?
The connection is to the downtown local track only, which is easiest to spot from the rear window of a Redbird coming out of Grand Central.
If you take the uptown local track, you can still see the old trackbed which rises on the left side of the current track and ends at the tower(which always reminds me of The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 when I see it).
Fred: I know that you like any info about the New York and Slow Beach.
I came accross the following while looking through some old records.
Multis were used on the #4 Sea Beach for one day July 20,1936.
Also the R-1's which were tested there from July 8 to November 27,1931 were 200-214,381-2,384-5 and 387.
Best Wishes,Larry
Oh, no, not you too!:-) I thought Brighton Exp. Bob was the only one calling the Sea Beach the Slow Beach. I think I mentioned to Fred that the BMT standards had Sea Beach Local signs on their route curtains. In fact, they had just about every combination of BMT route and type of service on their roll signs.
By the Way, Where is SLOW BEACH FRED, he doesn t come East to Next Week
Why did the BMT allow it's tracks to be used to test competing railway equipment? They had to know that the purpose of the IND was to put them out of business.
I'd say it was because the IND tunnel specifications were the same as those of the BMT.
Why did the BMT allow it's tracks to be used to test competing railway equipment? They had to know that the purpose of the IND was to put them out of business.
I don't know the definitive answer to the question. but a good guess is that the BMT knew it needed to keep in some political good graces. For example, it needed permission of the Transit Commission to try out new equipment.
The BMT was to be compensated for running the R-1s, but in the end it was agreed that the use the BMT got out of the cars in revenue service was sufficient to repay them.
To go with my other NYCTA drawings I have finished the R110B. Let me know if you want it.
The Paris Metro is/has been sponsoring a Nostalgia Train on alternate Sundays thru Aug 27. Cost is approx. $12 for an 80 minute ride on line 6.
Paris Metro Nostalgia train
The problem is that all trains are fully booked.
If not I would surely go there to re-experience my childhood!
I used line 6 to go to school, back in 74, right when the
steel-rubber tyre conversion was underway
[The problem is that all trains are fully booked.]
True. But when I was there in 93, there was no tour at all. If the tours are this popular, maybe next year RATP will run it more often than just once, every other week. This year, the tours are celebrating the 100th anniversery of the Paris Metro.
And if someone is lucky enough to be in the Paris area, they can check for cancellations.
>True. But when I was there in 93, there was no tour at all.
> If the tours are this popular, maybe next year RATP
>will run it more often than just once, every other week.
The reason they couldn't do it anymore was the new
security standard. They were special trips during the eighties.
But one had to wait until 1:00am when revenue service finishes,
to get on those fan trip trains.
RATP updated a five car train to conform to modern security
policies, and since the tours are a big success, they plan to do it
more frequently.
If anyone at Subtalk has pictures of the Nostalgia train,
I'd love to see them.
The last time I rode in these Sprague-Thompson trains
was in 1981. 2 years before its demise.
>>> RATP updated a five car train to conform to modern security policies <<<
Wado;
What kind of updating was done? What security policies are there now that were not there earlier?
Tom
I think this might be a small language barrier problem. In French, Securité means safety, not security.
-Dave
Dave, you got me
Yes, safety standards. I don't know exactly what they were but
there were some reasons, possibly Automatic Train Operation or
signal related stuff that made the train unusable in revenue hours.
I need some backup from others for more info.
Last time I visited Paris: 1994
pre-BOA, pre-meteor.... pretty much obsolete
13 years in NYC and still a couple of drinks can put my English into confusion!!
BTW, Did you get a permission to shoot your Metro pictures?
Back in the 70's, you could get caught by taking pictures of trains in France.
A TO would yell at me "T'as les papiers? L'authorisation?. C'est interdit, hein!"
I guess they are not so strict, these days.
But that's why I don't have much train photos from my Parisian days,
even though I have plenty of London Undergournd and British Rail
pictures from the late 70's.
No, I didn't seek permission to take photos in the Métro. I wasn't sure what the policy was. The only place where I was challenged was at Bastille, I just mumbled something in English ("sorry didn't know" --> "stupide americain touriste" :-), put the camera away, and that was it. I left the station to take some pictures from the street, however. After that I figured it wise not to show up in Bastille station so I walked up the road to get back on.
Wise move! I remember a story of a friend of mine,
who almost got arrested for taking Talgo trains pictures
in Spain. Not to mention the former USSR in its hey days.
>("sorry didn't know" --> "stupide americain touriste" :-)
"Stupid Japanese tourist" worked for me in the States
(not for trains though, I never was bugged for that)
But in Paris, I could never do it, as people would absolutely
see me as a local person. (I guess it shows that I lived there)
It's been quite a while now. Maybe I should try the next time,
as people might see me as a New Yorker :-P
I lived in Barcelona for a year back when Franco was still in power and took lots of pictures, including quite a few of the Ferrocarril de Cataluña and a couple in the Metro (only at the one end where Línea 1 was elevated - I was shooting Kodachrome 16 in those days) and never had any problems. I also took some pics of the Talgo while it was changing gauge at the French border but unfortunately that roll was lost somewhere between Spain and Fair Lawn, NJ.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>never had any problems
I guess you were lucky and my friend was... unlucky
Maybe being Japanese, the local authorities thought
he was from communist China. I was not even a teenager,
back then ('74), and that friend was already in college.
By the way, Japan will soon have its own gauge changing
train. (Or maybe they already have, I haven't checked out
recently) It will enable through service between the Bullet
Train lines (Std Gauge) and legacy lines (Narrow gauge).
I mistakenly stated in a message a week or so ago that one of the "workers" depicted in the artwork on the R142A was wielding a sledgehammer. Not so. I guess it is just what I expected to see in that sort of picture. In fact, it shows two men guiding some kind of large metal pan, and a third man doing welding. Also pictured, in addition to an R-142 type subway car, is what could be an end view of a large motor or generator, or perhaps it is a rotary converter.
I also understand why the stations not yet reached are the ones illuminated on the strip map, rather than vice versa. It allows the system to indicate what stations are going to be skipped. I rode it from 3rd Ave. to Pelham Bay Park today, making express stops to Parkchester, and the logic of doing it this way was apparent - local stations to be bypassed were never lit.
I'm surprised that artwork was chosen. It is not a very
Politically Correct piece. The electrical apparatus depicted
is a rotary converter, btw.
Having not seen the artwork, I was wondering: why is it Politically Incorrect?
It's not Incorrect, it's just not Correct.
It depicts 3 white males working without proper, OSHA-approved
safety gear :)
Oh really? To me the fellow just to the right of the R142 depicted in the artwork appears to be Oriental, perhaps Japanese.
It looks like the same artist who created the tile murals at 36th Street on the 4th Avenue line did this one too. Looks good!
wayne
Anyone got a picture of this artwork? I wanna see it before some group moans about it and it gets painted over / torn down...
It's just a poster card similar to the advertising cards, but it's in a "special" location underneath the route sign. I have a picture of it in the R142 section...
Heh. neat. And oh yeah, that's an AMAZINGLY clear shot. How'd you do that?
What do you mean? I didn't do anything special, just snapped the picture (digital camera). We probably weren't moving very fast.
-Dave
Jeff, this is just my humble observation, but it appears the artwork is a homage to the 1940's style 'war-effort' posters (particularly of the Soviet Union).
That's why it is essentially 'politically incorrect'. It is an amalgem of a present scene (142) and the past (track workers minus OSCHA equipment).
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone know when the new line is going to open in Queens? From what I hear, the construction is done.
The newer people on this board may not realize it, but this question gets asked about once a week. Here's the answer.
The 63rd Street Connection is scheduled to open for use during service diversions in November 2000. Regular, scheduled service is planned for October 2001.
The obvious next question is: What service(s) will run through the tunnel? The answer is: we don't know yet. NYCT's plan is to present its proposal to the MTA Board in October 2000, with at least one public hearing to be held in January 2001.
David
David
Well, they better get some service through there before the homeless dudes find a new home there.
I'm sorry. I just finished watching Bill And Ted's Excellent Adventure. If anybody has seen it, they use a whole bunch of "dude" and "excellent" words in the movie.
Actually, I think there's a secret plan:
MTA/NYCT has decided on the thirty-day test period. If SubTalk can go for thirty days without asking when it will open or what services there will be, a date and services will be announced. But if someone asks, or even hints at the subject, the thirty day clock is reset.
There are many TA lurkers on this site ... you may be correct ?
But then you may have been infected by the heypaul humor virus.
Mr t__:^)
I thought it was heypaul posting as Todd...
Nope, it was me. My transit humor only comes out on cool, drizzly days. And when I'm looking out the STORMFAN WINDOW.
Back on a serious (and quasi-topical note), I may have need to park at the big garage adjacent to Queensboro Plaza in a few weeks. Does anyone know the daily rate, and is it relatively safe to leave one's car there for a few days (assuming I want it back in one piece!).
And that's...
You had better copywrite the nice graphics before the suits at 88 grab it for their own ... very nice indeed. And that's ..... another smile brought to this depot on a overcast HHH summers day, thanks.
Mr t__:^)
Ah, yes, the three H's: hazy, hot, and humid. I remember it all too well.
A kill switch and a Club for the steering column are good items to have if you're going to park in a public garage. I use them if I have to park at the airport.
A kill switch and a Club for the steering column are good items to have if you're going to park in a public garage.
And even then they only deter someone who has less than three minutes. A co-worker of mine had his late-model Camry stolen within five minutes of the time it was parked; the car was equipped with a kill switch and The Club, both in use. It was also equipped with one of those GPS devices that helps locate it, but by the time the police found it, only 45 minutes after it was stolen, it had already been stripped and cut apart. This occurred last year in Basking Ridge, New Jersey, by the way, not NYC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about a underfed, overgrown starving rotweiller if it is for a couple days
All a perp has to do is throw it some food.
07/29/2000
[All a perp has to do is throw it some food.]
If the dog is properly trained, the perp will become food.....BURP!
Bill "Newkirk"
It looks more like it's a modified WCBS graphic. Notice the highway sign format and the fact that the NSIT in TRANSIT seems out of place (probably replace FFIC as in TRAFFIC?).
So, looking at everyone else's little picture at the end of their posts...
I know the font is the same... Arial Bold, and the colors too.
I need to scan an R-1/9 front bulkhead A/8th Ave. sign in that case.:-)
Or just go to Heypaul's house and borrow his.
The
running on
perspective.
As a matter of fact, I have that curtain. I've also downloaded Joe Korman's scan of that very sign. Now all I have to do is incorporate it into this message area.
I dont have one and wont try since not all of us have high speed connections and have to rely on dial-up.
I have a dial-up modem too... even though the upload speed on a 56K dial-up is 33.6, the files are usually very small if you convert it to a Jpeg. My biggest file is 29.2 K. That takes less than a second to upload.
That's the
running on
view on things.
That's not the issue, it's the download speed, which depending on network congestion can take quite a while. I have a cable modem but your first post with the two signs took nearly 30 seconds.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Geocities isn't very good. Let's try Homestead.
That's the
running on
perspective.
Even slower, try using GIF, I find that if only a few colors are used sometimes a GIF can be 1/4th the size of JPEG.
That's because GIFs store files in strings of pixels with the same color.
I don't know what JPEGs do, but they're used in photographic images where the fact that each pixel is slightly different makes a GIF as useful as a bitmap.
I dont have one and wont try since not all of us have high speed connections and have to rely on dial-up.
Long live the Low-V car!
I would, except that I SUCK at graphics editing.
FWIW, there appears to be free on-street parking underneath the bridge. No alternate-side, even. I wouldn't be surprised if cars don't last long there, though.
Nah, heypaul never uses his shift key, let alone the caps lock.:-)
Nor does he own a cahr.
Don t forget to announce it and who did it on the radio, maybe send it across the hall to Dan Rather, or even have them do a piece on 60 Minutes or Briant Gumbal. This Sub Talker Talks too much, so we have to wait more for Broadway Exp Service, More on 60 Minutes Sunday
The correct answer is August, 2001. See Train Dude's post for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've thought about this before, but after coming back from New York, I began thinking about it again.
I loved every subway I've ridden. On all the subways I've rode, each system had something about it that made it special; unique from any other subway. I consider this its "personality." After awhile, I figured that some subways had more personality than others, so I made a list. From most personality to least here's how I rate I subways I've ridden and why:
1. New York-(as if you need to be told) old, complicated, loud, rough (I LIKE these characteristics). So large that you could spend your whole life exploring it and still not know it all. Abandoned areas seen though darkness gives me a sense of mystery.
2. Boston- oldest in the country, Green line has an old school charm to it, screeching of the trains on sharp turns, the green line on elevated and undergroung portions I just love for no particular reason. There's something intangible about the T that makes it have a lot of personality, but I can't describe it.
3. Montreal- great looking stations, the whole system is so well intergrated with the city it's like they both were built at the same time. Fast accelerating, smooth trains, tunnels are well lit so you can see all the way down them. Rubber tired trains are something different from regular subways.
4. Atlanta- every station is an architectural masterpiece, many stations have artwork on the walls which adds to the great looking stations. Classical music played in stations give a soothing ambience to the stations.
5. Toronto- some stations have a 60's feel to them. "Mind the Gap" signs make a London feel to the system. Also has classical music in stations.
6. Washington- modern, sleek feel to system. Stations are good looking, but whole system seems like it was designed for just function and nothing else.
That's my list, what are you all's rankings for the subways you've ridden?
I think you're right about different subway systems each having their own personality, much like the verious cities they're in. Here's my list:
Chicago: (Not like I'm biased or anything.) I don't think there's another city where the rapid transit system is as closely identified with the city as the L is with Chicago. Hell, the whole downtown district is even named after the tracks that loop around it. True, NYC is well known for its subways, but they're mostly underground and out of sight. Not so in Chicago; the trains are up there above the streets for all to see (and to see from). Also, the L is so tightly woven into the fabric of the city that trains literally come within inches of adjacent buildings, and there's plenty of tight curves and squealing wheels for you. Much like Chicago herself, the L is practical, raw, gritty, and straightforward. And just like the city, somewhere along the way it became a thing of beauty without even trying.
New York City: Always a favorite of mine for many of the same reasons you mention. I think its element of mystery that you mention adds a lot to its personality, as well as the fact that it's so huge and complex it seems impossible to fully comprehend. The most die-hard railfan could know every detail of how the system operates, but still not be able to fully grasp it as a whole. Like in Chicago, it is also very closely identified with the city itself, and it's hard to find a place in NYC that isn't within walking distance of a subway line. And much like New York itself, it's very big, very loud, very in-your-face, and certainly not for the faint-hearted.
Boston: To me, the T is sort of a mixed bag. Ranging from vintage PCC trolleys to ultra-modern subway trains, it covers all ends of the spectrum. The Mattapan-Ashmont trolley line and the Green Line seemed to have escaped from the Seashore Trolley Museum, while parts of the Red Line (particularly with the Bombardier 01800's) rival the Washington Metro for sleek newness. Like the city it serves, the T seems to have one foot hopelessly stuck in the past while the other foot strives for the future (for better or worse). The Green Line has plenty of charm unless you're actually stuck riding it on a daily basis, just like South Boston has plenty of charm unless you happen to be of a different skin color. Somehow it seems appropriate that Southie shares the same subway line with the People's Republic of Cambridge: So close, and yet worlds apart.
Atlanta: You probably won't like what I have to say about Atlanta, but here goes anyway. My first subway ride ever was on MARTA, so it does hold a special place in my heart. At the time I thought it was the greatest thing in the world, but now that I've travelled around a bit and see how other cities work, the flaws have come to light. You're right that it's a very clean, modern system. The stations and trains are all perfect, possibly a bit too perfect. On the other hand, MARTA doesn't go anywhere and nobody rides it; people in Atlanta still seem content to inhale exhaust fumes on I-285 rather than ride the subway. Just like downtown Atlanta, MARTA looks great on a postcard (gotta love those atrium hotel lobbies) but in reality is mostly a lot of flash with very little substance to back it up.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it...
-- David
Boston, MA
1. Barcelona - the first one I really fell in love with, back in '72-'73. A real mix of new and old, every line different.
2. New York - The greatest in the world.
3. Chicago - OK, so it's really the "L", the subway part is insignificant by comparison, but I've got fond memories from when I lived there for a few months in '78 and even more so of riding the Electroliner from Chicago to Milwaukee as a child.
4. Rochester - So I've never ridden it, but I've been in the remaining tunnel segment - it had real class.
5. Newark - PCC cars.
6. Boston - Another great ride, but I miss the old els.
7. PATH - Those junctions in the tunnels.
8. Philadelphia - Something about that Ridge Avenue Spur that just thrills me.
9. PATCO - The eerie Franklin Square station.
10. Washington - Good, solid, bland transportation.
11. Atlanta - Ditto.
12. Toronto - I've only ridden it once, maybe I'll be able to form more of an opinion next month after I've ridden it again.
13. Montreal - Ditto, ranked below Toronto because I can't quite get used to the idea of rubber tires.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Los Amgeles .........WHEN THE
PE RED CARS RAN ......
Allow me to mention just one other non-US subway, one that few Western railfans seem to have ridden:
Moscow.
Or, to use its proper name, the Vladimir I. Lenin Metropolitan.
My favorite thing about this system is that it's a microcosm.
It bears roughly the same relationship to my native New York City subway that Moscow does to New York:
Both are huge, dirty, noisy and sublimely fascinating---but communist Moscow was centrally planned, while New York grew more organically through the creative chaos of capitalism and democracy.
So Moscow features a very round circle line around the city center, with lots of other lines crossing the circle at fairly even intervals on their way to more remote areas.
(Moscow's main roads are a bunch of fairly complete concentric wheels and spokes, too. That was possible because the city is inland and relatively flat, divided only by one fairly small river, instead of wrapping around harbors, lakes, or mountain ridges, like NY, SF, Chicago or LA.)
As with bread and other bare essentials of life in the USSR (and even today in Russia), the government has always kept the subway REALLY cheap, so the proletarians could afford it. When I rode it in 1995, it cost about 10 cents in US currency. Even on very low Russian salaries, that's still pretty cheap. For me, it was basically free.
That dime bought you giant stations full of grand statuary and heroic pictorial art, not to mention fresh flowers. Seemingly no two are the same.
The trains are old, noisy and cramped, but no worse than my beloved Redbirds are. I don't remember exactly what they look like--I wasn't really a serious subway fan then, and I was noticing so much else around me that was unfamiliar. Maybe someone could remind me!
One feature of the stations really stuck in my mind. They're quite far underground, and you reach them via long escalators made partly of darkish wood. And those escalators seem to move about twice as fast as any I've seen anywhere else, enough to snap your neck. I guess Stalin wasn't afraid anyone was going to sue the Soviet government for a trip-and-fall injury.
Other stray (and possibly faulty) memories of the Moscow subway:
--Its tokens were made of transparent yellowish-green plastic about the size of a US quarter. I still have one somewhere.
--It closed from around midnight to around 6 a.m.
--At all other times, every train ran on every line in both directions. (The whole system is very simple.)
--Lines/trains are named for their endpoints, while stations are named for streets, squares, institutions and other stuff. (Because all signs and maps are not only in Russian, but also in the Cyrillic alphabet, foreigners are advised to memorize the first few characters of the names of their trains and destinations.)
--The Russian PA announcement that's equivalent to "Stand clear of the closing doors" is something like "Ostarojna: Dvyeri si kravaitze," literally, "Caution: The doors are closing."
Oh, well. Obviously I need to go back!
I'd love to hear anyone else's observations about the Moscow subway, especially if you've been there recently.
I haven't been there myself, but my daughter rode it in '98, also the one in St. Petersburg that same trip. She was duly impressed. Her comments about it jibe with yours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Haven't been there Tony, but I'd join you on your return visit!
Actually I'd like to work on an English version of their official web site (www.metro.ru). Lots of nice pictures there if you wade thru it (or I could give you a Zip file :-) Of course, I don't speak Russian and the Cyrillic doesn't even render on my workstation...
-Dave
Check out a cool map, from the Moscow Metro web site David mentioned, at this URL:
http://www.metro.ru/map/1998.html
Boy, does this bring back some memories.
Thanks, Dave!
And now check out this 1936 Moscow subway map.
http://www.metro.ru/map/1935.html
I believe it shows part of what is now the #1 red line, and an inner-city piece of today's #3 dark blue line (I'm referring to their graphic representations on the 1998 map in my last post. Muscovites seem to call them by their endpoints).
The stations seem pretty much the same as today's, including Arbatskaya and Comsomolskaya.
Woo-hoo!! Man, David, this Moscow subway site is cool. I can read only about 50 words of Russian, but I know how to read and pronounce the Cyrillic alphabet, which is good enough to recognize station names and so forth, including many I remember fondly.
Now check out THIS cool Moscow subway map, from 1980.
http://www.metro.ru/map/1980-2e.html
It's very crude, and I think it's strangely beautiful, like some babushka printed it by hand with carved potatoes. It looks to me like some sort of weird astronomical primer from about 1500 A.D. And on this one, the station names are all transliterated into the English alphabet, even though they're in Russian.
I wonder how official this map was. The crudeness and vagueness of the map really makes you wonder. Then again, things were pretty tight in Russia at the time (most times, actually).
And I know that the Soviets disliked having official maps, particularly of Moscow, in public circulation, because they thought it would aid Western spies, or even Western bombardiers. Maybe this was a home-made map.
I got chills!!
Bye! Gotta go wade in that site some more.
Now if only I could read and understand Russian.
Something *I* would love to see is an actual TRACK map of the Moscow system, showing all the connecting links between lines, yards, etc. I suppose one would be now serving time in a Siberian concentration camp if they were drawing such maps.....
They would have been freed no later than 1989.
Check out a cool map, from the Moscow Metro web site David mentioned, at this URL:
http://www.metro.ru/map/1998.html
Boy, does this bring back some memories.
Thanks, Dave!
And now check out this 1936 Moscow subway map.
http://www.metro.ru/map/1935.html
I believe it shows part of what is now the #1 red line, and an inner-city piece of today's #3 dark blue line (I'm referring to their graphic representations on the 1998 map in my last post. Muscovites seem to call them by their endpoints).
The stations seem pretty much the same as today's, including Arbatskaya and Comsomolskaya.
Woo-hoo!! Man, David, this Moscow subway site is cool. I can read only about 50 words of Russian, but I know how to read and pronounce the Cyrillic alphabet, which is good enough to recognize station names and so forth, including many I remember fondly.
Now check out THIS cool Moscow subway map, from 1980.
http://www.metro.ru/map/1980-2e.html
It's very crude, and I think it's strangely beautiful, like some babushka printed it by hand with carved potatoes. It looks to me like some sort of weird astronomical primer from about 1500 A.D. And on this one, the station names are all transliterated into the English alphabet, even though they're in Russian.
I wonder how official this map was. The crudeness and vagueness of the map really makes you wonder. Then again, things were pretty tight in Russia at the time (most times, actually).
And I know that the Soviets disliked having official maps, particularly of Moscow, in public circulation, because they thought it would aid Western spies, or even Western bombardiers. Maybe this was a home-made map.
I got chills!!
Bye! Gotta go wade in that site some more.
Now if only I could read and understand Russian.
Something *I* would love to see is an actual TRACK map of the Moscow system, showing all the connecting links between lines, yards, etc. I suppose one would be now serving time in a Siberian concentration camp if they were drawing such maps.....
They would have been freed no later than 1989.
communist Moscow was centrally planned
That ignores the fact that Moscow existed for many years before November 7, 1917.
Stop nitpicking, Pigs. Central Moscow as it stands today is largely as it was built in the '20s and rebuilt in the '40s, under the Communist régime. Centralized planning enabled the subway to be built where and how they wanted it to be since they didn't have to have any concern for private property rights, human rights, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has anyone seen a card size NYC subway map? Do you where I can get one? Thanks in advance
They are part of a MetroCard Holder that is given away when you use a new MVM. It is luck of the draw whether the new location will have a specific card holder.
They can be purchased at Transit Museum shops.
I have seen other small TA maps like the one in question, but the outer covers are for various advertising. For instance, HBO issued one around the P.R. day parade. Many people were carrying them; I found one on the train.
Joe Caronetti
The best one that I've seen so far was produced by the Navy ...
"Let the journey begin ... when the ships come in. Here are the places you don't want to miss." There are 25 "places" listed ... Chelsea Billards, Bowery Ballroom, Nathan's, etc.
Mr t__:^)
So, you have to buy the small one and get the big one free? Standard TA logic for you...
I think the TA should charge 25-75 cents for their maps, to recover printing costs as well as discourage people from getting a map, using it for one day, and throwing it out at the end.
Like this? Click the pic to see where to buy them.
--Mike
From this past Monday until September, there will be four Q express trains leaving 21st Queensbridge in the evening rush that will travel downtown via the Broadway BMT.
My own train: the 4:46 departure is the first of the four. Unfortunately we have to use the Montague St. tube so that detracts but it's still fun to call out "Broadway Expresss". The real fun though is people's faces when I call out "if you are unsure if this is the right train for you: GET OFF". Mark W. can verify that tidbit. He was on that first train monday.
The reason for this is that north of Rockefeller Center on track B3 the roadbed is being replaced. The slowspeeds neccesary have delayed so many rush hour D and B trains that some of the Q's are being rerouted to allieviate the congestion. (oops. Congestion is not a word we're allowed to say on the PA anymore) Enjoy the Broadway Express while it lasts folks.
oh, so that explains the q on the local track last night... how do the running times from 21st to dekalb via broadway compare with 6th ave?
HeyPaul,
The Broadway Express always ran more smoothly and quickly than the 6 Ave. Also, the Q didn't have to wait for the backlog of B and D trains entering 47-50 St, and the slowdowns between 34 St & W4 St. However, the Q may have had a backlog through the tunnel. My bet is that the Broadway Q was faster than the 6 AVE by at least 5 minutes.
I would say is makes the route lose 25 minutes, remember 6th avetakes the bridge, 7th the tunnel, and that 6th has an express line with consecutively skippes stations the 7th is more alternating between express and local which makes it slower
But the real Broadway express uses the bridge, not the tunnel, and it only stops at Canal, 14, 34, 42, and 57 before merging into the 63rd Street line. Compare that to Grand, B-L, W4, 34, 42, 47-50, and 57 on the 6th Avenue express, which isn't much of an express at all.
Too bad this pattern won't continue through October. I'd love to get another railfan view of an express run along Broadway, especially with the slants. Of course, that will happen when the south side bridge tracks reopen.
Fire is to smoke condition as congestion is to ________________.
I.e., what is the MTA approved terminology for congestion?
Does MTA publish a list of unwords or a disctionary of euphemisms?
Train ahead of us.... as if a train behind you could be holding you up.
Peace,
ANDEE
1 train or 20 trains?
It makes a difference
Have a nice weekend !!!
There is always a train ahead of you, even at 2am in the morning. Though at that point it is WAY ahead of you >G<.
You've never been on a train that was held in a station due to a delay in service behind it?
Don't they call that a "service adjustment"?
(oops. Congestion is not a word we're allowed to say on the PA anymore)
What new, idiotic, transitspeak are they saying now?
Train traffic ahead of us.
How about "Trains piled up ahead of us"?:-)
How 'bout:
Its coupler to coupler on the Queens IND!
About a year ago an F line C/R said that during the 50 minute crawl to Roosevelt ave.
I guess that's the equivalent of the A Div "Conga line to New Lots" during the after AM rush, when everything lays up at Livonia.
Coupler to coupler, eh? Not bad.
I used to have a favorite at Broad Channel/Gaston/Holland during bridge delays at the South Channel. "Ladie and gentlemen, the service is closed because the bridge is open, as soon as the bridge service opens, the doors will close.
In other words, they've cut 6th avenue service without any announcement. As if it isn't bad enough.
Great, typical.
Are they gpoing to change the signs at 42nd, 34th, and 14th that say 'All Service on local track' to reflect the chnage or are they going to leave it.
I'll lay odds taht thet won't change it !!
They won't because it's the it's regular route. Is this considered a G.O. even though some are running normal?
Actually a cut in 6th ave Express service could be manageable. Why could they not put the "Q"on the local track? They could do well to have 2 locals; they have 2 locals on 8th Ave, so why not 6th? Of course, the "Q" would only have to switch to the express anyway. Can't win!
Joe C
Joe,
The Q used to be on the 6th Ave local track, when it was first run up 6 Ave. Too bad it's still not, because there's always congestion(OoH, can I say that?) getting into Rockefeller Ctr, and again at W 4 St.
Q as a local. I like that. People would get so fed up with the slowness of the Q that they all begin rioting for restoration of Broadway Express service. Subway projects they need:
New tunnel to replace Manny B
Rutgers-Dekalb Conn.
Redo Franklin, connect to Fulton IND
Court, Brookyln - WTC tunnel
If you have a tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge, what's the point of a DeKalb/Rutgers Connection? If you build a tunnel from the World Trade Center to Court Street, where would the NYCT Museum go and wouldn't that almost be the same thing as the Cranberry Street Tunnels?
That's the...
running on...
's
perspectives.
In case something goes wrong in the tunnel (i.e. dead car), they can still use the DeKalb/Rutgers connection for emergency reroutes.
If they ever built a tunnel from WTC to Court St., they can built the trackways underneath Court St. (to bypass the Transit Museum) and head on to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
If they ever built a tunnel from WTC to Court St., they can built the trackways underneath Court St. (to bypass the Transit Museum) and head on to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
If they ever do build one, they won't waste the money to bypass the museum. They'll use the station for what it was intended for. I know we'd all like to see the museum stay where it is - and I for one doubt they'll ever build that tunnel, so chances are the museum will remain at Court Street - but the subway exists for the benefit of the riding public, not for the pleasure of railfans like us, and we all need to remember that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
a-mEN TO THAT
There wouldn't be a need for the Rutgers connection. The Rutgers connection is a cheap alternative to a new tunnel.
Do you remember how (congested) things were when the JFK Express ran down 6th? That was like living death! The D south of 59th just tip-toed all the way down, as did the B which was held up behind the D which was held up behind the Q which was......
I'd jump off at 59th and FLY down 8th; even the C was a faster run to lower Manhattan than the 6th ave service was. Someone finally flicked on the light switch!
Joe C
Do you remember how (congested) things were when the JFK Express ran down 6th? That was like living death! The D south of 59th just tip-toed all the way down, as did the B which was held up behind the D which was held up behind the Q which was......
I'd jump off at 59th and FLY down 8th; even the C was a faster run to lower Manhattan than the 6th ave service was. Someone finally flicked on the light switch!
Joe C
Did they ever have to hold up C and E trains at W. 4th so the JFK Express could switch from the 6th Ave. local to the 8th Ave. local tracks?
The must of held it there as well as holding an "A" train at Canal.
What are you talking about? 6th Avenue has a bazillion trains going to a bazillion destinations: the B, D, F, & Q.
Broadway has 2 trains: the Never and the Rarely.
Why not have express service on Broadway line in Manhattan? I think it would make sense for the 'Q' (or upcoming 'V') train to run on the seldom used Broadway Express tracks instead of the already heavily used 6th Avenue express tracks. Can't the Q use the Montague tunnel and cross over to the Brighton Line on the presently unused track just east of DeKalb Avenue in order to continue to facilitate express service on the Brighton Line in Brooklyn? (I know, looks good on paper, but I'm sure there are a plethora of reasons it can't be done (traffic, too many crossovers, etc.) Feel free to shoot me down!)
Also, this thread begs the question: What color will the Q sign be? If you look carefully, you can see (leftover?) yellow Q end signs (on interior car-ends) and yellow Q roll signs on some trains, and also painted-over station entrance Q signs on the Broadway line. I say use them, and bring back Broadway express service permanently!
The Q Trains appear in many many different shapes and sizes. There is a Yellow Diamond Q on the R68s, a Yellow Circle on the R68As, Orange Circle on the R32,R40,R40M,R42, and a few R68As. I think the R32 has a yellow Q... not sure if it's a diamond or circle. I've never seen a Q on a R38.
The
running on
perspective.
All signs except for the 68's and first 10 68A's have both orange and yellow Q's in circles. Many 68's have replcement signs that have this too. (On the B D & N, look for signs with a bolder font.) The 38's ren on the Q 11 years ago when there was some flood and Asbestos contamination on 8th Av. (63rd was not open yet, 57th was closed and the Q replaced the A to 207th).
I really dislike the R68 replacement rollsigns. They look like they're from a kindergarten classroom. The letter is so big. The original ones are better.
That's the
running on
perspective.
But, the larger fonts make them easier to read.
Peace,
ANDEE
You should have seen the original front signs on the R-40s and R-42s. Talk about huge.
Huge isn't the work for it. When first delivered the sign in front of the slant probably was 3ft x 6ft or larger. I remember the headlines and promotional stuff said that you determine the train that was coming from a mile away. Note that this was before they decided the colors would be the same on the truck lines.
Even Sesame Street used the front of the R40/R42 to teach kids their ABCs ....
Part of the song even went ...
A, B, double-C
gets you where you want to be
ride the local or express
doesn't matter, each is best
--Mark (genetically engineered railfan :)
I object. Every true New Yorker knows the express is better than the local.
I'll second that. Even so, many express runs aren't what they used to be.
Well, I suppose you could argue that with the Children's Television Workshop :)
--Mark
Absolutely no argument here. However, I still don't understand why the "N" can't run express. The "R" was always the only local train on this line.
because the TA doesn't like you
The R was not always the only local line. Before the 1967 Switch over there used to be up to 5 lines running on Bdwy, 3 Exp and 2 Local in Normal Hours. On Sat and Weekends, and after 9.00PM the Brighton Local ran Exp, then the 4th Ave was the only local.
You must be thinking of the old Theater Special, which later became the pre-Chrystie St. QB. In the final years before Chrystie St., the QB was a late night and weekend operation making all local stops. I remember racing a QB along Broadway on a Saturday afternoon in October of 1967. Our N train zipped past 23rd St. while the QB came to a stop.
Because it would have to merge with the R at both ends anyway. It would lead to no gain whatsoever.
And anyone waiting at a local station would be in for a looooong wait.
All those reasons are bogus. The Sea Beach was the Broadway Express in Manhattan until they rerouted it off the Manny B back in 86 or thereabouts. The R should run local, the N Express. They run the same route up to 59th Street and it is ludicrous for both trains running on the same line to run local. Even in Brooklyn's open cut, there are express tracks and you could run some Sea Beach trains as both locals and expresses as well. Good to know that there are others who have the same concerns I have, and when I'm in New York next month it would please me to see the "N" running express, but I'm not placing any bets on it.
I agree that there should be a Broadway express.
I have no problem if the N is the express.
But local service on Broadway is pathetic as it is, and it can't afford to be cut in half. If the N is made the express, R service must be increased.
In order for R service to be increased, first you need more cars. Unfortnately, there isn't enough room in or around Jamaica Yard. It is packed to the max. There doesn't seem to be any other yard near or around.
That's the...
running on...
's
perspective.
Fred is dreaming of Express Service between 86th and 59th St, As to the N running over the bridge, Most likely they will run the Q Back on Broadway. I have a feeling that the N will now and remain a LOCAL for a long long time,
Hey, Fred, happy anniversary!
Pigs,
I don't agree with this. The "N" could be sent to the express track at 57 St, and switch to the local track after passing Prince St. The train will be skipping 5 stops, and should fly by at least 1 "R" train. At least 5 minutes can be gained here, as long as there are no switching delays. I don't see how merging with the "R" after Prince St. causes a problem. Please clarify your statement.
The merging is the problem. Not only will you not be able to add service, you'll also be alienating local riders with LONG waits and the gain, most of which would be lost on a merge would not be significant at all.
Be careful. If the 'N' starts to skip 5 stations then people will have to wait longer and will have to switch at either 57th, 42ns, 34th, 14th (not to bad-just cross the platform), but at Canal-what a long walk.
And not being a lawyer, would there be any ADA problems since the current pattern was set before is was passed and this is considered major renovation of the station?
Have a nice day! Hope your drying out !!!
At Canal Street, all trains north have to enter Canal Street on the local platforms at this time. The Canal Street Bridge Platform is closed while the south side of the bridge is being renovated.
That's the...
running on...
's
corrections.
Hi JRF,
We're trying to dry out, but it just keeps on pouring. But, there would be "no long walk at Canal St". Once the "N" switches to the local track, south of Prince St., it will be on the same platform as the "R". The long walk to transfer, is between the Manhattan Bridge station, and the local station. Take care !
There are a bazillion CROWDED trains. The line is always crowded, if there's a delay of even a few minutes the trains are packed.
This just adds to the overcrowded condition on the line, without giving anyone a benefit.
Since nobody knows about this, nobody would know to get on the bway line to catch a Q. Since nobody would normally take the N or R from midtown to Brooklyn, it is a looooonnnnng slooooow ride, nobody is already waiting for a train there.
A better idea, suggested by someone in this thread, is to have the Q run local, and switch it back whereever convenient, 34th or W4th.
But if you switched the 'Q' to the Broadway Line in Manhattan, and then back to the Brighton Line at De Kalb Ave. in Brooklyn, virtually the same outer-borough destinations would be served, and it would relieve congestion on the 6th Ave. line. Not everyone who lives along the Brighton Line works along 6th Avenue. There used to be express service on the Broadwya Line anyway. New Yorkers are an adaptive bunch. The people who used to wait for the Q at 47-50, 42, 34, W4, etc. will simply catch it at 57, 42, 34, 14th, etc. and be on their way to Brooklyn, and vice versa in the morning. The reason for the crowds is because that's where the trains are. Move the train, and the 1/4 the crowd waiting in 6th Ave. Stations will follow. (I just know I'm going to get some arguments here. Bring them on!! :o) )
I agreee, beside the D Train is still on 6th, and they can use that also, or walk 1-2 blocks, but that won t save anything. What they shoud do is return the D to Exp in Bklyn and Q Local
The Q is a Broadway express train in exile.
And the Broadway line is in desperate need of another train--especially an express.
As soon as it's feasible, I'd like to see the Q back on Broadway.
:) Andrew
Are you signing them up with Yellow or Orange Qs?
Is this change on the customer timetable?
apparently transit transit is planning a feature on railfans... yesterday, i found a message on my answering machine from andrew o'rourke, one of the producers of the show... he left a number to call... i had a dilemma... one of my first posts on subtalk about a year ago was to criticize transit transit for its goody goody upbeat style... i would have liked to see more negativity and more depressing features... my feelings toward the show haven't really changed, even though i haven't seen it in the last 8 months... however, i have an insatiable need for public recognition due to low self esteem and a gnawing sense that i don't really exist... but to go from the new york times to transit transit, just seemed like the wrong move for my overall career path... so i did not return the call...
while i am at it, i thought about what i would do if i ever got a call from the howard stern show... i imagine that they are always looking for someone to make a fool out... i would tell them to go screw off... i have often thought that a just punishment for the stars of that show would be to have to keep on doing that program for all eternity...
heypaul, I just wanted to reassure you that you do not actually exist in our space/time continuim. I thought you should be told outright. Hope that doesn't ruin your day :-(
BTW, if you get a call from the Jerry Springer show, please except the offer to appear. Their guests often get involved in violent confrontations with one another, and if we could only get Train Dude on the same show with you.....well, you get the idea.... :-)
P.S. Andy O'Rourke should have been told about Sallam Allah. Now THERE's an interview to end ALL interviews!!
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Paul,
Just call him and find out what he wants... It could be your R9 Living Room??
Attn: Transit Workers: There is a new website just for you;The New York City Subway Club has all of your favorite links, news and information. At a future date you will also be able to download the latest bulletins, notices and more. There is also a Bulletin Board, where you can share information. When you get to the site enter referral no. 290EA and go to group page. When you get to the page make it a favorite so that you can access it with one click. Hope you enjoy! TSS Bob DiStefano.
SubTalk Field Trip to Philly on Saturday, August 5, 2000!
Is anyone still interested in going to Philly on Saturday, Aug. 5, and doing some serious railfanning?
I plan on going to Philly on Sat. and hope others will join me. Jersey Mike, Joe C, and Henry R32 had expressed an interest earlier. Maybe Bob Wright could join us as well. Let's plan on meeting at the Transit Museum/Store, 1234 Market St., at 10 am (about 10:10 am for those of us coming from NYC), SATURDAY, Aug. 5th.
I made plans on being in NYC the weekend of August 4,5,6,7, in anticipation of the Coney Island tour. Since that is on hold for the moment, I figured on doing the NJT/SEPTA routing from NY Penn Stn. I'll be taking the 7:32 from NY Penn to Trenton, switching to the 9:02 SEPTA , arriving at Phila. Market East Stn. at 9:58 am, just in time for the opening of the Transit Museum/Store at 1234 Market St. We can get our Day Passes there. A restored PCC car is in the lobby that you can enter and check out. I was in Philly for a conference in 1996, and traveled the BSS and part of the MFL and one of the LRV lines that passed adjacent to the Univ. of Penn campus, but I need to do these again. Have not been on PATCO yet. Hey, if the City can clean and paint the stations, we ought to make use of it!!
Mark W. had a list of ideas for NYC railfan options listed in an earlier post. If Mark would be willing to do any/all of these on Sunday, Aug. 6th, I would be interested in joining up.
Please email me so that I have an idea of how many might be joining us.
Hope to see you all in Philly on Saturday, Aug. 5th!
If I can get guarentees that at least 2 other people will join me, one being from NYC, I will go railfanning on Aug 5. with a large group I'll feel safe enough to bring my real camera.
BtW did you read my sample plan?
I wish to remind all Subtalkers - SEPTA requiresa photo permit.
On my first attempt I was stopped by an employee at a station.
I obtained a permit from public relations and I was stopped again (on secopnd visit) by the SEPTA Transit Police. I showed the officer my written permit and was allowed to proceed. At a second station I was also stopped by an employee and was allowed to proceed after showing my written permit.
e-mail me off-site and I'll send info on who to contact at SEPTA.
I wish to remind all Subtalkers - SEPTA requires a photo permit.
On my first attempt I was stopped by an employee at a station.
I obtained a permit from public relations and I was stopped again (on secopnd visit) by the SEPTA Transit Police. I showed the officer my written permit and was allowed to proceed. At a second station I was also stopped by an employee and was allowed to proceed after showing my written permit.
e-mail me off-site and I'll send info on who to contact at SEPTA.
While many railfans are lamenting the replacement of
the older IRT cars (sorry, I hate the term
redbirds as I remember them in many other
colors) with the R142's it must be remembered
that last year there was a transition just as
drastic (or even more) with the passing of
the older LIRR diesels to the new trilevels. Last
summer I took some video of my then 3 year old son
Arthur at Mineola Station while waiting to pick up
my wife. Since I have WebTV & no P.C. there was no
way to upload them. However I just upgraded to the
WebTV Plus (still no 'puter) and with that
one you could capture stills from video for email.
I then transloaded them to my Angelfire account.
Since Angelfire just started barring remote loading
I hope they come out. Since I put them as links and
not embedded I think they should come out. Here
they are:href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/art1/artloco.jpg"
>Arthur and old diesel, just east of Main St
crossing and Nassau Towerhref="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/art1/mineola.jpg"
>Another old diesel at Mineola Station- my son and
wife on W/B platform.href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/art1/artnewloco.j
pg">Arthur with New Locomotive-same location as #1.The new tri-level coachesHow did an M-1 (or M-3) get in here?? Well, at least a good shot of the Main Street crossing and Nassau Tower.
[While many railfans are lamenting the replacement of the older IRT cars (sorry, I hate the term redbirds as I remember them in many other
colors) with the R142's it must be remembered that last year there was a transition just as drastic (or even more) with the passing of
the older LIRR diesels to the new trilevels.]
Yet there is a difference ... while they may be a bit rusty, the 'birds are still in pretty good shape, while the old LIRR diesel coaches were VILE.
Jeff, Angelfire is rejecting the ones linked using the correct html tagging but the other three come up fine when copied into the location bar. I was able to look at the last two pics by viewing the page source and doing the same thing. Now we know where he gets that hair from!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While many railfans are lamenting the replacement of
the older IRT cars (sorry, I hate the term
redbirds as I remember them in many other
colors) with the R142's it must be remembered
that last year there was a transition just as
drastic (or even more) with the passing of
the older LIRR diesels to the new trilevels. Last
summer I took some video of my then 3 year old son
Arthur at Mineola Station while waiting to pick up
my wife. Since I have WebTV & no P.C. there was no
way to upload them. However I just upgraded to the
WebTV Plus (still no 'puter) and with that
one you could capture stills from video for email.
I then transloaded them to my Angelfire account.
Since Angelfire just started barring remote loading
I hope they come out. Since I put them as links and
not embedded I think they should come out. Here
they are:href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/art1/artloco.jpg"
>Arthur and old diesel, just east of Main St
crossing and Nassau Tower>Another old diesel at Mineola Station- my son and
wife on W/B platform.Arthur with New Locomotive-same location as
#1.The new tri-level coachesHow did an M-1 (or M-3) get in here??
Well, at least a good shot of the Main Street
crossing and Nassau Tower.
You still have a problem.
But it doesn't matter, you're the only other person on this board who I've seen use the <OL> tag to create numbered lists as opposed to numbering manually. I think that makes up for it.
And if it doesn't, then answering this question will:
What do you mean by remote loading? That means that now to upload to Angelfire you need to use a web browser instead of an FTP client?
Remote loading just means they don't want people to use angelfire gifs, wavs & midis on non Angelfire sites such as Email signature boxes, bulletin boards like this, or Ebay auctions. Supposely if the gif or jpg shows up somewhere else other than on Angelire you'll get their logo instead of the image. They explain it on their site. Lycos and Xoom have already done it.
Because WebTV users cannot download anything, we are forced to link to images/audio files via http hyperlink. We have no usable harddrive in which to store files, and as such, all our files must be stored at either a "free homepage provider" or a paid domain host. The free providers have initiated a campaign to prevent "remote loading"- linking to a specific-type file outside the domain. Simply, any file (usually audio or jpg) linked from outside the domain (as in <img src> or <bgsound src>) will be blocked or replaced with a logo describing the remote loading initiative.
Remote loading has cost the free homepage providers revenue via excessive bandwidth usage. We, using webtv, have our own set of firewalled newsgroups where html embedded signature files are encouraged. With over one-million subscribers, you can imagine the activity of such newsgroups. Each time one of those messages are posted and read, the html embedded signatures are loaded and displayed.
QV
QV
I see you have video of a DE30AC before horn reconfiguration. Did you catch the sound of the horn while the train went by?
Hey! I just found out that starting a week from Monday and continuing until Labor Day weekend, the Q train will only be running to 34th Street, forcing us to transfer to a shuttle train to get to Queensbridge. Does anyone here know why they are doing this?
- Lyle Goldman
This is how the notice reads for the month of Aug and Sept 2000:
B Trains replaced by shuttles on the weekend from 21st, Queens to 34th St, Bway on the N/R. In Brooklyn, service operates 36th St to Coney Island.
Queensbridge Shuttle runs at all times.
During the weekdays, Q trains operate 57th St and 6th Av to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.
-Stef
You're right. I guess I misread the announcement. Still, why are they terminating Q trains at 57th Street only?
- Lyle Goldman
This is unclear. I know that there is reduced service due to fact that the track between Rockefeller Center and 57th St is being replaced. What this has to do with service to 21 St is beyond me.
Has anyone noticed that while this is going on, there are also E,F, and R service changes also being planned for the same weekends as what's happening on the B?
They can't possibly terminate the shuttles and the F at 34th St!
-Stef
Note: I have a new e-mail address, as I no longer use the old one.
Fri Jul 28 00:50:34 2000
While many railfans are lamenting the replacement of
the older IRT cars (sorry, I hate the term
redbirds as I remember them in many other
colors) with the R142's it must be remembered
that last year there was a transition just as
drastic (or even more) with the passing of
the older LIRR diesels to the new trilevels. Last
summer I took some video of my then 3 year old son
Arthur at Mineola Station while waiting to pick up
my wife. Since I have WebTV & no P.C. there was no
way to upload them. However I just upgraded to the
WebTV Plus (still no 'puter) and with that
one you could capture stills from video for email.
I then transloaded them to my Angelfire account.
Since Angelfire just started barring remote loading
I hope they come out. Since I put them as links and
not embedded I think they should come out. Here
they are: (Since I had trouble with the html
coming out with multiple pics I will put one picture
per post!!! Here's the first one)
Arthur and an old locomotive
The next pic: Arthur and my wife with old diesel On platform
at Mineola.
The next picture: Art with new locomotive
The next pic: New Tri-levels
The next pic: New Tri-levels
The last one:
How did an M-1 (or M-3) get in the picture?? Good picture of the Main Street crossing and Nassau Tower.
You know, Jeffrey, there is a PREVIEW message button that you can use to make sure your HTML is good before cluttering up the board.
-Dave
Alright, we all know they have a better terminal (Grand Central) and have cleaner, more reliable trains. So why is it exactly that Metro North has much better service than LIRR?
Could it be LIRR has a harder job since Long Island is more isolated than Westchester?
Does the current poor financial shape of Nassau county play a factor?
Well I hear they do have a REAL HUB, White Plains which has alot of offices, shops, and malls. And from pictures I've seen it looks fairly organized, unlike the mess of disorganized stores and strip malls we LI'ers refer to as the Nassau HUB.
One day I gotta see Metro-North and Westchester myself. Any suggestions? Is paying a visit to White Plains a good idea?
Other than NYC I don't get away from Long Island that much and was wondering the best place to go with Metro North. It'll sure be nice to depart and arrive in a REAL train station like Grand Central instead of that little hole in the ground called Penn station.
I'm not an MNRR expert by any stretch, but from what I've heard, one contributing factor to better service on MNRR is that they have fewer bottlenecks. LIRR has only 9 tracks (and not even full access to those) at Penn Station. So they have to shuttle trains in and out at rush hour. Metro North has dozens of tracks at GCT, so they can park and leave many trains there during the day.
As far as trips go, from a railfan perspective, Stamford, Croton-Harmon or Yonkers are probably more interesting than White Plains.
Chuck
If you want a fun ride, go to Danbury CT. You're guaranteed a diesel ride part of the way with a railroad yard and the Danbury RR museum at the end of the line.
And - FL9s are still likely to be found on the Danbury branch.
As for places to go in Westchester, White Plains is a nice town - but not much to do and not much to see. If you really only want to stay in Westchester, try Croton-Harmon where you can see the Harmon shops from the station and perhaps some FL9s or maybe even MNCRR's re-engined DeWitt RS3.
If you want scenic, take the Hudson Div to Poukeepsie(spelling) all along the river North of 125th(Harlem) and Hudson at Sypten Dival.
And take Amtrak's TURBOLINER back at about 1:PM (fare: $24, up from $19 when I went last year).
[take Metro North to Poughkeepsie for a scenic ride]
[And take Amtrak's TURBOLINER back at about 1:PM (fare: $24, up from $19 when I went last year).]
Is that possible? I thought that Amtrak couldn't carry local traffic on a Metro North route.
At one time you were correct, but I believe that Amtrak can now, since they go into Penn Station instead of Grand Central.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And charge you twice as much for the trouble.....Actually, I was surprised when I was taking an Amtrak trip south, and caught the train directly into Penn, to see people doing that, just to save a half hour on MN...
Still can't bet. Yonkers, Croton-Harmon, and Poughkeepsie, but to NYP you're allowed (though you get some weird looks if you get off at Yonkers or Croton-Harmon from Penn Station, when I did that I made sure to have a D.C. Metro map sticking out of my back pocket to make people think I was continuing my trip.)
Who said the LIAR is not as good as Met N. The LIAR is a PRR subsiduary and there fore will always be better than that NYC related Metro North. I don't care how many "facts" or how much "edivence" you show me, the LIAR will always be bettre.
The PRR Lives Forever!
White Plains is in the middle of a renewal of sorts. Much of the downtown (Mamaroneck Avenue) area has closed stores. The biggest store to close was the Macy's. It relocated to the Galleria. This entire block is scheduled to be demolished and in its place a condominium tower and/or an entertainment complex will be built. The plans are still in litigation so it may be a while till anything is actually built.
However, in the meantime, there are other places to check out. The Galleria mall is about two blocks from the station. This year marks the mall's 20th birthday. The mall has gone through a series of renovations during this time. The major one being in the early 90's which did away with the movie theater and observation balconies in the center of the mall.
The area around the mall looks NOTHING like it did 20 years ago. The tall buildings that surround the Galleria were not there - just vacant lots and a bus depot. There is a large vacant fenced-in lot where the orginal White Plains stationhouse stood. But that was demolished in the 80's and the present day station was then built.
About a mile down main street, you'll find the more up-scale Westchester mall which is twice as large as the Galleria and has stores such as Nordstroms, Brooks Brothers, and Neiman Marcus.
[re White Plains]
[About a mile down main street, you'll find the more up-scale Westchester mall which is twice as large as the Galleria and has
stores such as Nordstroms, Brooks Brothers, and Neiman Marcus.]
There had been an exhibit in the Westchester Mall about the old NYW&B commuter railroad, whose White Plains terminal was located where the mall now stands. I'm not sure if it's still there, however.
Westchester Mall sounds nice but a mile is a long walk. Is there any bus that goes there, and how much does it cost?
I'd like to see if the Westchester tops Roosevelt Field here on LI.
With all the $$ we got on Long Island we have yet to see a Neiman Marcus!
[I'd like to see if the Westchester tops Roosevelt Field here on LI.
With all the $$ we got on Long Island we have yet to see a Neiman Marcus!]
It's more upscale that Roosevelt Field, but smaller.
Because White Plains is very close to Scarsdale which is one of the highest per income communities in the country
Yes, ther is a Bee-Line bus that goes there from MN station, do not have details, contact Bee-Line.
Yes, it does top Roosevelt Field.
Peace,
ANDEE
The #13 to Port Chester goes past the Westchester Mall-You get it across the street at the bus terminal from the train station .The other way heads towards Ossining
Bee-line buses aren't exactly frequent, and weekend service is horrendous or nonexistant on many routes. Check the guide-a-ride thing at the White Plains bus terminal, and if service is too infrequent it'd be a good idea to check the one at the mall the moment you get there, so you can find out when the best time to leave is.
Well I don't know if wanna get involved with riding another Long Island Bus style transit service!
It is about 1 mile and there are more then 1 bus from the station to the mall.
We now have three correct answers.
Just in case the crop may leave out some helpful detail, I have posted the original uncropped picture (except for some sky) as a link below the colorized picture on rapidtransit.net.
07/28/2000
Besides the cropping, I like the black & white picture better.
Bill "Newkirk"
There are now ceiling mounted Air Conditioning units on the 4/5/6 platforms @ Grand Central. It really does make a difference!
--Peter
In which direction were the seats between the end of the car and the last door before the end oriented? I can't make out whether it's front/back or sideways from the photos here.
Originally, the ones on the cab side all faced the center of the car, and the ones on the opposite side were front/back.
When 250 or so of the standards were rebuilt in the late 1950s, the end seating was opened up by replacing it with all longitudinal bench seating.
I beleive that the Standards in the NYCTA Museum still have the original seating arrangement.
-- Ed Sachs
Did they face each other in a "conference" fashion or where they all in one direction (like all away from the end)?
[ When 250 or so of the standards were rebuilt in the late 1950s, the end seating was opened up by replacing it with all longitudinal bench seating. ]
I believe 400 +/- were rebuilt, basically all the cars from 2400-2799. There were some oddities and renumberings in there. The newest cars, the 2800s and the 4000 series trailers weren't rebuilt.
IIRC, the actual number was 396 cars rebuilt. The car numbers sound correct; none of the lower number cars nor any of the single A units were rebuilt.
IIRC, all or almost all of the A units were rebuilt. These were basically in the 2600 and 2700 series.
Some of the 2600s replaced the trailers in the BX units, making most of the former BX units into B units. The remaining 2400s simply lost their trailers and became two-car BT units.
All (I think) unrebuilt cars were B units except the 4000 series trailers.
I tend to agree with you on that. I seem to remember riding an unrebuilt 2800 type on the West End in 63. And the 2000-2399 group had no rebuilds. Other than that the 2600 and 2700 types I rode and worked had the modified seating therefore rebuilds.
Remember that weird paint in the interiors of the rebuilts?
They somehow figured out a way to make a paint with a base color (blue, IIRC) with some kind of squiggles in it of different colors (black? white? red? green?--time has mercifully dulled my brain) and have it all come out of a spray gun.
I hated the rebuild, but at least it kept the Standards going a little while longer. They had the most agreeable riding qualities of any car I ever rode on--gentle, with a pleasant sway.
The Triplexes were great, but their harsh nosing could wake you out of a post-work doze with a slam!
Paul: Didn't they use a spectacled green paint sometime referred to as "Patterson Green" for the then NYCTA chairman? I believe that a similar paint was used on R-22's 7515 to 7524. It was really quite depressing.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Spectacled green? Sounds right. It was awful, like trying to cheer up the inside of a rundown shack by painting it purple.
I also remember that it was speckled green. I think there was a special name for it, but I forget.
But in the scheme of things, it was amazingly, only the second-worst green interior color paint scheme they ever came up with for the subway. The 1971-77 pistashio green-and-gray paint scheme the R-7s through R-36 MLs got to go along with the MTA exterior paint job still qualifies as the all-time more horrific color combo ever to grace a NYC subway car.
I thought that pstachio-and-grey paint scheme was PARTICULARLY AWFUL when applied to R7A and R9 cars. Somehow it seemed to fit in the R16, don't ask why. Just looked right. But on the R7A and R9 - YUK! Some of those fans even had their fan blades repainted white. Despicable! Filthy!!!
Somewhere near the ends of their lives, some of the R17s wound up with a terrible interior paint scheme - Mud Honey Beige (an awful color - it's found in the tile band at Bedford Avenue on the "L") coupled with an even nastier shade of Brown (chocolate doesn't come to mind!) for the storm and interior doors.
wayne
The interior paint used on the rebuilt standards was indeed the same as was used on R-22's 7515 to 7524. As I recall, these R-22's also differed from their mates in having a smaller window in the storm door, and pink fiberglass (hard) seats rather than red vinyl over foam rubber. I think the fiberglass seats became the "standard" seat starting with the R-26 series.
-- Ed Sachs
The interior paint used on the rebuilt standards was indeed the same as was used on R-22's 7515 to 7524. As I recall, these R-22's also differed from their mates in having a smaller window in the storm door, and pink fiberglass (hard) seats rather than red vinyl over foam rubber. I think the fiberglass seats became the "standard" seat starting with the R-26 series.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: I remember those cars well. It was always a treat to ride them even with that terrible green paint. They stood out from the other 440 cars of the R-22 order. Another group that was interesting was the 10 R-17's (6800-6809) that had air conditioning installed,although it was later removed. They had bucket seats and a somewhat different type of fan baffle.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Red molded bucket seats, with far less of a curve in-between the seats than on the later cars, starting with the R-44s. That's the type of seat the MTA should have put into the R-62s, instead of the tight-fit jobs they did allow to be installed.
I remember that speckled paint scheme (our house in South Bend had white speckled paint on the interior walls before we repainted them), but because of my dislike for the BMT standards back then, I tried to blot out as much as I could. There were some cars that had a dark green interior paint job.
The BMT standards did ride nicely, though. Their doors opened and closed smoothly and quietly as well, albeit a bit slowly.
Paul,
You are correct about none of the 2800s being rebuilt, with one exception: 2899! If you recall, this was the middle car of the B unit: 2774, 2899, 2775. Alas, in a fit of anger and spite, the TA scrapped this museum set, with the exception of 2774, which is now up at Branford.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Isn't that the same thing that happened to R-6-2 #1208? What a shame! Not a single R-6-2 left in the whole world.
wayne
07/30/2000
[Isn't that the same thing that happened to R-6-2 #1208? What a shame! Not a single R-6-2 left in the whole world.]
I was told #1208 was saved as a museum car was because it was operated by Mayor LaGuardia for the opening of the Sixth Ave. subway. However, a spitefull individual made sure that this car be scrapped no matter what!
Bill "Newkirk"
1208 was the only GE car in the museum fleet. ALl the others are Westinghouse. That entered into the equation as well.
What car was "operated" by Mayor LaGuardia (actually, I think he just posed in it) on the first run of the unified NYC Transit System, after the BMT Corporation became the BMT Division? Anyone know?
--Mark
What car was "operated" by Mayor LaGuardia (actually, I think he just posed in it) on the first run of the unified NYC Transit System, after the BMT Corporation became the BMT Division? Anyone know?
--Mark
I remember riding on 2899. And it was the operating car. I think 2775 was in the middle.
It was 2899-2774-2775. 2774 was the middle car.
Neat trivia (trivium?): Prob. the oldest standard to get the rehab was 2791, which was ex-2189, rehabbed in 9/1960 and got headlights, too. I don't have the scrap date on that car--it could have been the Standard longest in passenger service (1915-196??)
Paul,
The way I understood it was that 2774-75 had a 4000 series trailer between them. When the trailers were scrapped the TA simply placed an "A" unit between the 2 remaining cars, hence 2899 being placed in the middle.
BTW, if you notice, 2899 was the only "A" unit of the 2800 series ie; it was the 100th car, the first 99 made exactly 33 "B" units!
Bill Newkirk, maybe you can verify this.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
07/31/2000
[BTW, if you notice, 2899 was the only "A" unit of the 2800 series ie; it was the 100th car, the first 99 made exactly 33 "B" units!]
If my teaching of mathematics at PS 152 is correct, then so are you!
Bill "Newkirk"
As I said, Hot, it was 2899-2774-2775 in that order. I know there was some shuffling in the early days, but by the time the 50's rolled around, all the BX's (motor-trailer-motor) were 2400s mated with 4000s in the very neat progression from 2400-4000-2401 to 2498-4050-2499.
I'm not going to dig now to try to find a needle in the haystack of my notes, but ISTR that when the BMT decided to take the top 50 A units then existing (2751-2799) and make up more B units, they were obviously short a car and the 2800 series was obviously long a car, so voila!
Our Station Agent friend posted an alert about this MC on July 9th.
Got mine today ... here's some additional info. for the confused:
Current MC has 3 bottles w/ "LookForTheSigns.CM"
Prev. (8/99) LookForTheSigns had six clear bottles
Prev. (7/99) "Snapple" was dark blue with some text
Don't know what "elements" has to do with "Snapple" but I'm not going to question it, just state what I've noticed.
P.S. I'll now put all three cards togather to reduce my confusion.
Mr t__:^)
Because Snapple is supposed to be pure.
Elements are fruit drinks put out by Snapple in such flavors as Moon, Sky, Earth,Fire, Rain, Sun, and Gravity.
Thanks for the input ! As it turns out I saw them for the first time in one of the gas station delis this weekend.
BTW, As you can see their adv. didn't work the last time (9/99) as I had the card but had no idea what it was all about.
Mr t__:^)
I was just curious-How do train operators find out where they have to report to each day and which trains they operate;are they given a work program showing where they report, leave, and lunch breaks? Or do they report to a yard first, and then travel to their assigned place?
If they have a picked job, they know where they need to be on their regular work days. If they are extra or working on their day off, they need to check the assignment sheets to see where they should be the next day. The assignment sheets will ttell them which job they are working, where it reports and at what time.
Where do they get these assignment sheets from?
They are at the RTO reporting locations - all the terminals, yards and gap stations where crews report.
Today's trip began by taking a refurbished Orion on the E2/ from Friendship Heights to Fort Totten. Before I got on the E2/, I did see Orion V 221X (I think it was 2219), the first new Orion I've seen operating out of Western. I hopped on the Anacostia-bound green line at Fort Totten and shared the railfan seat with a lady who was sitting normally. At Georgia Avenue-Petworth, the operator told me not to stand over the lady (who did not make any complaints what so ever) and as we were about to pass the crossover after U Street/African American Civil War Memorial-Cardozo (did I leave any suffixes out?), he stopped the train, opened the cab door, and told me to take a seat which I reluctantly did having seen what I wanted to from the railfan window. I am wondering if there was any racial issue in that whole thing because a black biker had ridden with his bike in the first car between Fort Totten and Georgia Avenue without being spoken to and the lady who I was sharing the seat with and the operator was black. I am white. If I had the time, I probably would have abandoned this operator at Columbia Heights, but I didn't want to wait 12 minutes for the next train.
Anyway, I got off at Gallery Place-Chinatown and went to Metro Headquarters to pick up my July 4, 2000 map since they had extras and no use for them. Spokesperson Cheryl Johnson had not dropped the map off at the receptionist's desk downstairs, so I was given a visitor's tag and was sent to her office and had a nice chat with her as she rolled up the map. She did confirm with me that the new Green Line Stations would be opening January 13, 2001 assuming all goes well and hopes it is not snowing or too cold that day. My plan is to go through the elements and ride that day anyway.
After leaving Metro Headquarters, I walked to 5th and H Streets to get a P6 bus to Anacostia. Upon the bus's arrival, I looked at the sign and saw it said P6 RI AVE STA. I asked the driver if she was going to Anacostia and she replied she was. Then I noted to her that the sign said Rhode Island Avenue and she said I know. Later in the run, someone asked the same question as me meaning she hadn't done anything to fix the sign.
We arrived in Anacostia and I discovered the existance of Gillig Phantoms in the Metrobus fleet. I then went downstairs and got some pictures. I was unable to find the building that would make the station open-cut if it were removed. I took a northbound green line to Gallery Place, transfered to the red, and got to Farragut Square. I was going to take the new N2 up to Friendship Heights when Orion V 2219 came along and I took that. The sign and stop announcer were working. I noted additional handholds and I felt there was less leg room and the sign on the side of the bus that would display 32 was not there yet. Upon arrival at Friendship Heights, I had lunch and then took the 23 Ride-On home.
I also sighted new Orions on the 60s and 30s.
I have never been to Metro Headquarters. How can I visit there?
Chaohwa
You can't if you have no reason to be there. I only got to go upstairs because Cheryl Johnson didn't deliver the maps to be picked up to the receptionists desk. I was on the 2nd floor and all I saw was offices. The only artwork is pictures of buses, trains, and maps.
I might be able to get a tour of HQ some other time through someone who works there...
I say "somewhat" OT because this issue has been discussed before on Subtalk. It's one of the most controversial issues in the United States today. Do I mean gun control? Abortion? Privatizing Social Security? Or even scrapping the Redbirds? No, none of that wimpy stuff. I want to rant about (drumroll, please) sport utility vehicles!
I bringing this up because yesterday my wife and I joined the ranks of SUV owners, or lessees to be precise. Our minivan was on its last legs, to mix a metaphor a bit. After doing some online research and visiting a few dealers, we ended up leasing a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo. It's a midsize SUV, comparable to a Chevrolet Blazer or a Ford Explorer, and while not huge and hulking its 4,000-pound curb weight is greater than almost any passenger car on the road. We got a very good deal on a 39-month lease and they even gave us $1,000 for the minivan. That's exactly $1,000 more than I would have offered :-)
At any rate, I did some Web browsing regarding the well-publicized safety concerns associated with SUV's. Suffice to say that there is definitely no shortage of anti-SUV sites. Both the New York Times and Salon have had well-researched articles on SUV dangers. In essence, the "responsible" arguments make two points. First of all, SUV's unquestionably do keep their occupants safer in multi-vehicle crashes than do passenger cars. Statistics on this are about as convincing as you could imagine. And the second point is that SUV's do present a greater risk in crashes to occupants of passenger vehicles than do other passenger vehicles. This is due in part to greater weight, in part to higher seating positions, and in part to sturdy construction. And these safety differences are significant.
Yet most of the anti-SUV sites and articles go a further step. They assert that it's morally wrong to drive an SUV precisely because doing so puts passenger-vehicle occupants at risk. The fact that driving an SUV helps keep you and your family safe, well, if you're a decent person you should be willing to give up that advantage.
Am I the only person who thinks that is an utterly demented viewpoint? I have absolutely no desire to smash cars with my Rodeo and slaughter their helpless occupants. Nor, I would guess, do 99.999% of SUV owners. But I also want to keep my family and myself as safe as possible, and God knows there are plenty of horrible drivers out there. I should sacrifice our safety for the good of society? No [deleted] way in creation! Call me selfish, but that's the way it is.
One of the oft-overlooked items about SUV safety is that the growing number of "big" vehicles on the road today makes the field of vision for all drivers smaller.
I'm no fan of SUV's. Nevertheless, I don't argue with your right to own and drive one. I suppose SUV ownership falls well within the realm of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Particularly so if keeping your family safe makes you happy.
Just be sure to ratchet up your liability limits by a level or two if you've got assets to protect, and stick a few extra twenties in the cookie jar to pay for gas.
(and just to put it ever so slightly on topic, I guess driving an SUV gets your field of vision somewhat above the gate at a grade crossing, giving railfans a better view of the passing train.)
Chuck
Only someone living in Long Island, or some other anti-environment suburb, would be blind enough to suggest that the only negative to an SUV is its tendency to kill people in passenger cars.
SUV's are great for conquering rugged off-road trails, but 99% of the time they're used for transporting kids to school and grocery shopping. You admitted that the main reason you purchased one was to secure your family. But a recent NY Times study indicated that mini-vans are the safest way to go (the womb) rather than purchasing one of these aggressive, "I"m ready to kill someone" vehicles.
We are living in a time when it's important to conserve energy and to use it more efficiently. SUV's are the opposite of energy efficiency. Often they're used to transport exactly one person but use so much gas that one could actually support a dozen families in their homes for a week. The government continues to subsidize gasoline prices and by taking disproportinate advantage of these subsidies you are hurting countless others.
You may feel your children are safe in the protective armor of your tank but remember that thirty years down the road when they're choking on the toxic fumes leftover from the SUV superhighway generation, they won't be thanking you.
I recommend visiting the following site for an elaboration on reasons why your choice to purchase an SUV was poor one:
http://www.tufts.edu/as/stu-org/observer/1999/april29/observations/1.htm
Please sell this monster as soon as possible and purchase a more reasonable vehicle.
Wow -- an opinion piece from a college newspaper. Complete with factual errors. By a writer who claims bicycles are preferable to cars.
And a "NY Times study"
That's citing the hard facts.
Dear Charles,
You can complain about factual errors and NY Times studies all you want (Complete with incomplete sentences). You can also use obscene amounts of sarcasm if this is what you desire. But you're not really helping your cause. I believe that bicycles ARE better than cars. This is a NYCSUBWAY newsgroup and thus, from an urban standpoint, bikes far outweigh cars. This is a no-brainer to anyone who's attempted to drive a car in New York.
Sport Utility Vehicles are the absolute peak of American consumptionism. It affects me because I live here too, and SUVs are spewing out toxins (about two times more, overall, than passenger cars) into the air that I breath, affecting my health. It really angers me, Charles G, that you can write such ignorant garbage; garbage that clearly represents a mind on the defense, a mind that is guilty. There's no need to feel guilty and you can redeem yourself if you take your SUV and "trade it in for a nice bike."
dentist
It's not my cause. I don't own an SUV, nor do I plan to. I don't like them and would be much happier if they all disappeared. But I don't get to make those decisions for people.
My problem is with those whose only contribution to a discussion is impassioned opinion. The article cited indicated that SUV's spew 30% more pollution. You say it's twice as much. Which is it, dentist? And do those levels of "toxins" create any sort of health hazard?
Exactly what "ignorant garbage" did I write.
No guilt here, other than for cluttering the board with off-topic junk and for sending sarcasm in Josh's direction unnecessarily. Apologies to those offended.
If interested in continuing the conversation, send an e-mail.
Chuck
[Referring to the so called superiority of bicycles] This is a no-brainer to anyone who's attempted to drive a car in New York.
That's true, since it takes someone with no brain (scientific term: Salaam Allah Syndrome) to come to that conclusion.
One thing that has to be done is to force bicyclists to qualify for licenses. If I was or had a close friend who was a lawyer, I'd let the next sidewalk-riding red light running bicyclist to crash into me and have them get what that lawless scum deserves.
An off-topic rant I have is the Village of Roslyn. Apparently they are building a unit of 120-150 townhouses where the Stop and Shop was to be built. Also there's another plan to build a 250 unit Senior housing complex. These projects will be upscale. Yet I don't hear about opposition from these projects, which could add up to 800 people to the small village of Roslyn, much more than a Stop and Shop would bring.
And these places will have parking lots but the Coalition to Save Hempstead harbor finds these OK, but not one for a supermarket.
That's just great, we'll have more people living around here and no new places to shop. Looks like stores like the already insane Pathmark in Greenvale are going to get alot worse.
I begin to think that the NIMBY's are not even preservationists, they are paranoid people who will oppose anything that might bring poorer people into their village. After all this is the same group who'd rather have diesel engines polluting their air from LIRR trains than have a third rail.
By the way the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor has an email,
cshh@earthlink.net
Flame the hell out of them!
[I'd let the next sidewalk-riding red light running bicyclist to crash into me and have them get what that lawless scum deserves.]
Pigs, you must realize that subway riders, pedestrians, and cyclists are allies in the war on the automobile and that it is the automobile and not cyclists which are the source of your anger. By attacking cyclists you are attacking the symptom. Cyclists are forced to ride in dangerous streets which are made for the car and often they have to ride on sidewalks to get even a slight feeling of safety. The solution isn't to require bike liscenses, thereby encouraging more people to drive. It is to shut down numerous lanes of streets to cars and open them up to bicyclists.
Even with these problems, many hundreds more pedestrians in NYC are killed by cars each year than by cyclists. In fact, there hasn't been a pedestrian death by cyclist in nearly a decade.
Please visit the site www.transalt.org for more information on the pedestrian-cyclist alliance.
I don't care.
When I'm not driving, cars don't bother me on the sidewalk and I can wait for lights.
And since I've been driving, I haven't been jaywalking. It's annoying and unnerving
There is a war on the automoble???
[We are living in a time when it's important to conserve energy and to use it more efficiently. SUV's are the opposite of energy efficiency. Often they're used to transport exactly one person but use so
much gas that one could actually support a dozen families in their homes for a week. The government continues to subsidize gasoline prices and by taking disproportinate advantage of these subsidies you are hurting countless others.]
I fully understand that we need to conserve gasoline. In addition, while by no means a "Green," I am not unmindful of the need to protect our environment.
Where we differ is in the proper way to achieve those goals. As far as I'm concerned, there is a great deal of unnecessary driving going on. I don't mean to say that people should drive only to work and back, but that with a little planning it's usually possible to cut down on driving to a significant extent.* One big part of this, getting back on topic, is greater transit use. It goes without saying that I'm all for that.
In short, it's possible to reconcile driving a SUV with fuel and environmental conservation.
* = considering I have a 39,000-mile limit on my 39-month lease, there is a big incentive to reduce driving. I also suspect that a high proportion of SUV's are leased rather than purchased outright, given their generally high prices, so their drivers similarly have a need to limit their mileage.
[Please sell this monster as soon as possible and purchase a more reasonable vehicle.]
You just forfeited whatever respect I might have had for your viewpoint.
Aside from the individualk inefficiency of each SUV, as others have pointed out, the most common trips are solo, thus compounding the waste. While wwe enjoy the ...pursuit... , unfortunately IMHO we are far to lax in our central planning. Instead of relatively bright and perhaps socially responsible (yes these are judgemental terms, and yes honorable persons might disagree on conclusions...), we rely on the marketplace of political influence. SUV's only exist at all by virtue of a loophole in the CAFE regs which themselves are already too weak. If the costs were fully allocated(include Med Fleet, US forces in S Arabia, bombing runs over Iraq, base at Diego Garcia, AND the lost real estate tax base of land wasted on rush hour capacity highways, etc), then you would not consider a gas guzzler because the gas would be 6-10/gal. As to the safety issue, here again we see the venality of the process. When the cars were forced to become safer fatalities decreased--but the car companies whined ever so effectively to their lackeys in DC and the regs were loosened(get government of my back--you know). The issue between any two care is relative--two tanks a draw two tin cans a double suicide but still a draw. I say remove the fareboxes from all public rail and bus trtansit and jack up gas prices. Get a bike, and walk more often. See you on the subway.
I say increase transit fares and stop cross-subsidies. Just as you feel the driver should pay for the transit rider, the driver feels the opposite. Who's right?
Each person should pay their own way.
You are the wrong one. In the early part of this century, every minor city in this country had extensive street car lines and less than one in ten people had automobiles (Street cars had actually been around longer than automobiles at this point). Car manufacturers and their associated lobbyist groups are the reason why most American's are dependent on automobiles. They saw a huge market that wasn't getting tapped because people didn't need automobiles. They used money and power to eliminate funding to public transportation. Public transportation went away and people were forced to buy automobiles. Today, car manufacturers are doing the same thing. They are lobbying for raised prices on public transportation in cities across the country and they are blocking the building and the expanding of systems currently in place.
I am lucky to live in New York where public transportation is good and I am not forced to depend on a car. You may not want to pay for public transportation when you drive, but I don't want to pay the the price of my health for all the toxins that your car is spilling out into the air. And it just seems to me that the right answer is the answer that wastes less natural resources.
In most parts of the United States, transit is the loser.
And busses are just like trolleys, only they are more versatile, they are just more polluting.
If I stooped down to your level, I would argue that the automobile has IMPROVED America, since not only is disease less than what it was before the automobile came online, but so is pollution. However, I'm smart enough to realize that one has nothing to do with the other.
Buses are NOT like trolleys. Streetcars cannot be moved off of streets at once, as the physical plant (rails and trolley wires) is fairly permanent (and a silent advertisement that dependable transit exists here). A bus line can vanish, like the snows of winter when spring arrives. The bus was the auto industry's weapon to destroy the surface rail transit in America.
Little statistic for you: Practically every streetcar line in America that was converted to buses lost 15% of the streetcar passengers upon conversion, and continued to lose another 20% in the first year of bus operation. Those lost passengers went straight to private automobiles.
My home sits on a street in Northeast Baltimore neighborhood that was built between 1927 and 1940. Every house was built with a 1 car driveway. This was in the era when Dad took the streetcar downtown to work and left the auto for Mom to use. In 1956 the 19 streetcar line that served our neighborhood was converted to buses. By 1959, every house on the block now had two cars, one in the driveway and one parked on the street. The buses were so undependable, dirty and smelly that Dad now drove downtown to work (adding to the congestion that delayed the bus) and left the other car for Mom.
[My home sits on a street in Northeast Baltimore neighborhood that was built between 1927 and 1940. Every house was built with a 1 car driveway. This was in the era when Dad took the streetcar downtown to work and left the auto for Mom to use. In 1956 the 19 streetcar line that served our neighborhood was converted to buses. By 1959, every house on the block now had two cars, one in the driveway and one parked on the street. The buses were so undependable, dirty and
smelly that Dad now drove downtown to work (adding to the congestion that delayed the bus) and left the other car for Mom.]
Dunno about the 1927-1940 era. From what I've gathered, it was only after World War II that women started driving in any appreciable numbers. Of course, it wasn't just a woman thing, as many men didn't drive back then, either. Thinking about older relatives and such, I would guess that 1920, give or take a few years on either side, is a significant dividing line when it comes to women and driving; those born before 1920 may or may not have learned to drive, while nearly all of them born afterward did. There likely will be variations among different parts of the country.
My house was built in 1966 and only has a one car driveway. There has never been a trolley here, and I doubt bus service was any better.
[Buses are NOT like trolleys. Streetcars cannot be moved off of streets at once, as the physical plant (rails and trolley wires) is fairly permanent (and a silent advertisement that dependable transit exists here). A bus line can vanish, like the snows of winter when spring arrives. The bus was the auto industry's weapon to destroy the surface rail transit in America.]
Gee, if that's true I wonder why there are hundreds of bus lines in NYC but I can't find one trolley line.
Actually, as a railfan I kinda like trolleys but when I rode one in Toronto a couple of months ago I realized how utterly impractical they are compared to buses. A cab was double parked right on the tracks dropping off an elderly wheelchair bound person. Every car and truck went around the cab but when we got there all the motorwoman (is there such a word?) could do is wait there and honk her horn.
That's relatively simple. Once the automobile interests had the streetcar eliminated from urban transit, the street railway infrastructure was ripped up and cut down and no longer existed.
Look at any street with bus transit service. If no bus is present, and there are no bus stop signs visible, could you tell if transit service was available?
As to autos/trucks blocking streetcar tracks, that's an enforcement issue. We had the same problems in 1963 on Baltimore's last two streetcar lines. In the era of the beat cop, the offending driver would be advised to "move it, or....". They usually did. As police moved from foot to auto patrol that local enforcement disappeared and the poor streetcar operator usually resorted to constant bell ringing, or get out, find owner, and insist he not block the track. It was all part of the job.
BTW, Many times, autos/trucks block buses. On a narrow street, same process as with streetcar. It never changes.
Dan;
As much as I enjoyed riding trolleys when they were on the streets, and still enjoy riding them at trolley museums, I must agree with Jeff's previous post that on city streets busses are more practical. Unless there is a separate ROW, busses are superior to trolleys because of the ability to maneuver in traffic, and the flexibility to alter the route if something like an auto accident blocks the route.
The new Light Rail transportation systems which have any hope of being more than a tourist attraction have significant off road ROW, and run on streets for as short a time as possible. Only the dedicated ROW will allow a light rail route to compete with driving one's private vehicle as far as speed is concerned during rush hours.
Tom
I beg to differ. As you have described the issue autos rule. As posted earlier, its a matter of public behaviour--really no different than "diamond" lanes. When enforced seripously they facilitate traffic preferences be they buses or carpools, when unenforced they are useless. The behaviour of the driving public needs modification. We all remember when it was acceptable to drive drunk. Through far better enforcement AND public attitude change we have reduced dui behaviour. The same could happen for blocking transit ROW whether curbed off or not.
>>> I beg to differ. As you have described the issue autos rule. As posted earlier, it's a matter of public behaviour--really no different than "diamond" lanes. <<<
David;
By all means differ, but explain the advantage of a trolley sharing the road with general traffic, which means it cannot move faster than traffic, over a clean CNG bus on the same route. (It is not fair to cite smelly old badly maintained diesel buses in comparison). In downtown Los Angeles since May of this year there have been two bomb scares in public buildings which caused the streets in front of those buildings to be closed for three hours. The busses running on those streets made a one block detour. What would have happened to service if those had been trolleys instead of busses?
Tom
We all remember when it was acceptable to drive drunk.
I sure don't ever remember that, and I'm old enough to have learned to drive on my father's 1929 Model A Ford.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Buses are NOT like trolleys. Streetcars cannot
be moved off of streets at once, as the physical
plant (rails and trolley wires) is fairly permanent
(and a silent advertisement that dependable transit
exists here). A bus line can vanish, like the snows
of winter when spring arrives. The bus was the auto
industry's weapon to destroy the surface rail
transit in America.]
Gee, if that's true I
wonder why there are hundreds of bus lines in NYC
but I can't find one trolley line.
Actually, as
a railfan I kinda like trolleys but when I rode one
in Toronto a couple of months ago I realized how
utterly impractical they are compared to buses. A
cab was double parked right on the tracks dropping
off an elderly wheelchair bound person. Every car
and truck went around the cab but when we got there
all the motorwoman (is there such a word?)
could do is wait there and honk her horn. If something is obstructing or closing the street like a fire, street fair, or parade etc. a trolley line is dead. A bus could just go around the block.
This was in the era when Dad took the streetcar downtown to work and left the auto for Mom to use.
Maybe in Baltimore. My father grew up in a similar neighborhood in Yonkers, New York, built mostly between 1918-1925. His father took the trolley to work (all the way to Manhattan, via varying RR or el connections over the years - he rode the Getty Square branch for a while) and so did his mother (a schoolteacher). The car, once they got one in the early '30s, sat in the garage and was used only on weekends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wasn't stooping to any level. I was pointing out a fact that Automobile lobbyists have made public transportation useless for most of Americans, making them dependent on cars. Don't take it personally, but its the truth. Overall polution from automobiles hasn't changed really over the past 20 years. Engines are cleaner and more efficient but the number of cars on the road has gone way up. And now with SUVs, cars on a whole are getting gas milage similar to cars in the early 80s. Seems to me we're going backwards.
About buses being dirty; just think about how much worse it would be if all the people in the bus we're driving cars and SUVs. I say the bus wins here, granted many buses are old and inefficient. Many cities are begining to use natural gas buses which are far cleaner.
Government studies show that a person produces more pollution by riding a bus than driving a car. Why? Because in most places busses do carry as many passengers as a car and do so much less efficiently.
>>> Government studies show that a person produces more pollution by riding a bus than driving a car. <<<
Pigs;
I would certainly like to know which study came to that conclusion. I find it very hard to believe that even the dirtiest bus carrying a full rush hour load is putting out more pollution than 50 automobiles, and that each additional person who gets on the bus, contributes more to the amount of pollution the bus spews than an additional car on the road.
I do not doubt that if a 45 foot bus is carrying only one passenger there is more pollution than a private car. But the same could be said for a subway train carrying only one passenger. At some percent of capacity a bus pollutes less than the total number of cars it would take to have each passenger drive.
Tom
A full bus certainly pollutes less than all of the passengers in cars, however, in most places transit is nothing more than a social service and rarely fills up.
And only the over the road coaches are 45 feet, regular busses are 35-40 feet. But that doesn't really matter.
The only reason cities are using natural gas buses is to get a government subsidy.
The government bus subsidy goes to every transit authority in America. 80 or 90% Federal (UMTA/FTA) share. Local share is 10-20%.
The EPA is pushing natural gas buses to reduce particulate emissions from diesels, which is a very dirty engine, dirtier than a gasoline engine at the same HP, plus we have lots of natural gas available, more than oil, which has to come from those nasty (sometimes) OPEC folks.
I do suspect the last transit agency to go to alternate fuels for buses will be the Mass Transit Administration (Maryland), a part of the state Department of Transportation. The MTA got burned badly in 1993 on a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) experiment. Three Flx Metros with CNG were delivered, but were a disaster. Unable to work a major route for more than three hours without refueling, plus constant breakdowns, the three buses were finally palmed off on Montgomery County's RIDE-ON which is stripping the CNG equipment and converting the three to diesel. The MTA is now gun-shy on any kind of non-diesel transit bus.
Actually, this discussion belongs on BusTalk.
Agreed...this discussion belongs on BusTalk. But since it's here:
NYCT does not use federal money to purchase buses.
David
[The only reason cities are using natural gas buses is to get a government subsidy. ]
The subsidy is there because of pressure from environmental groups. Environmental groups get money and support from people in the city for their programs. The people in the city support the environmental groups because they have concern for their environment. They also support politicians who are willing to act on their concern for the environment. A law gets passed to subsidize public transportation programs that add natural gas buses to their fleet because of people's environmental concerns. A bus gets bought with natural gas because of this subsidy. But, its for environmental reasons. Its just that the way government works, it makes it seem like its because of something else.
[I say increase transit fares and stop cross-subsidies. Just as you feel the driver should pay for the transit rider, the driver feels the opposite. Who's right?
Each person should pay their own way.]
I agree, except that to do it right I think you have to place *everything* within an economic context. That includes factors like freedom from local pollution, transportation for the elderly, and the eventual costs of global warming. And it should definitely include proportionate payments for limited ROW resources, paritcularly in a place like Manhattan. Within that context, automobiles are probably getting a free ride.
I don't have to pay for elderly transportation, unless I have elderly parents and am responsible for them.
And it has not yet been conclusively proven that man made CO2 is the cause of the greenhouse effect, there are still unknown natural sources of CO2 and it is higly likely that these far exceed the amount of man made CO2.
Pollution during the 19th Century was probably greater than now as that was before pollution controls, environmental awareness and cleaner fuels and industries. Yet there has not been a significant change in worldwide temperatures any more than there would be between two other centuries.
[Pollution during the 19th Century was probably greater than now ]
Let's do what we can to keep it that way and that means let's stop subsidizing highways and cars at the expense of public transit.
Down with Triboro!
I agree with you here.
We should stop subsidies to either mode.
Did you hear about that dormant volcanoe whose crater was a lake in Africa. Many pl lived around the lake. One day a small earthquake cracked open a giant bubble of CO2 that was under the late. The CO2 that was released killed every aminal w/in 2 miles.
Hey, if the govt. is subsudizing gas then we already pay for it with out taxes same for environmental cleanup. Please stop bad mouthing externalities (when cost accru to someone else) they made our country great. Every person has a right to cheap and abundant energie.
I know that we should all walk and bike more (a rarely drive my car), but what about those people who like live in mountainous PA or other rural areas with hills and long travel distances. I always think about ways to limit driving, but for most people driving is the only alternative. How can we be fare to them?
Editorial:
People should never lease cars. They should only use what they can buy outright with cash.
PS: To get a good deal when buying a car pretend you're going to lease and then pull out your cheque book. The dealer will usually butter you up w/ freebies hoping to gouge you on the lease.
[Editorial:
People should never lease cars. They should only use what they can buy outright with cash.]
That might be the best idea from a financial viewpoint, but it just isn't realistic for the vast majority of car buyers today.
[PS: To get a good deal when buying a car pretend you're going to lease and then pull out your cheque book. The dealer will usually butter you up w/ freebies hoping to gouge you on the lease.]
Wasn't an issue with the Rodeo because it's sold as a complete package with very few options. BTW, I compared the dealer's lease quote with those from driveoff.com and carsdirect.com, and the dealer was no higher. So much for the advantages of online car buying :-)
Its not all about money. When we were getting a new car my parents pretended they were going to get financing and the dealer threw in like 5 free gas fill ups and some other stuff. Usually money and options are not under his control, but he can give away other stuff like gas and free oil changes etc.
Here's one of the best indeas yet for auto use by a city-dweller: A hi-rise apartment-renter friend of mine living in Brooklyn got tired of paying unbelievable prices for overnight parking. Since she used the subway to get to/from work it dawned on her that she could save a bundle in auto-insurance, car repairs and not have to deal with finding parking space by simply renting a car whenever she needed one. Primarily, see only needed a car when doing some kind of substantial shopping, visiting out-of-state relatives or two or three weeks out of the year when she would be on vacation.
Now that's one of the smartest moves I've heard yet.
Doug aka BMTman
[Here's one of the best ideas yet for auto use by a city-dweller: A hi-rise apartment-renter friend of mine living in Brooklyn got tired of paying unbelievable prices for overnight parking. Since she used the subway to get to/from work it dawned on her that she could save a bundle in auto-insurance, car repairs and not have to deal with finding parking space by simply renting a car whenever she needed one. Primarily, she only needed a car when doing some kind of substantial shopping, visiting out-of-state relatives or two or three weeks out of the year when she would be on vacation.]
There's a newer step that's sort of a hybrid between renting and owning - the "shared car." As I understand the concept, a company buys a car and sells usage share in it to, say, ten people. Each of the people obtains the right to use the car one-tenth of the time. The number of share-buyers, and their usage rights, can vary, I just used ten as an example. The company which owns the car is responsible for insurance, repairs, and other costs, and handles the scheduling. Arrangements of this sort work well for city dwellers who need a car too often for rentals to make sense - it's _expensive_ to rent a car in the city - but not often enough to actually buy one.
The government doesn't "subsidize" gasoline prices, it taxes them substantially. Just because other nations tax gas prices even more doesn't mean that the relatively lower (but still artifically high) gas prices in this country are "subsidized".
As for minivans vs. SUVs: isn't the distinction between them mainly one of styling? Both are larger and heavier than traditional cars, and place passengers higher off the road. It is not difficult to imagine a vehicle that is a hybrid of the two; 4-wheel-drive minivans exist today. To call minivans "responsible" and SUVs "irresponsible" is the height of emotional and indeed irresponsible thinking, since the effects of both types of vehicles have got to be similar.
[As for minivans vs. SUVs: isn't the distinction between them mainly one of styling? Both are larger and heavier than traditional cars, and place passengers higher off the road. It is not difficult to imagine a vehicle that is a hybrid of the two; 4-wheel-drive minivans exist today. To call minivans "responsible" and SUVs "irresponsible" is the height of emotional and indeed irresponsible thinking, since the effects of both types of vehicles have got to be similar.]
Most truck vs. car crash statistics I've seen lump SUV's, minivans, conventional vans and pickup trucks together in the "light truck" category. It's consequently very difficult to tell whether minivans and SUV's present comparable risks to passenger-car occupants. My guess is that the risks are largely the same when varying vehicle weights are taken into account. The one exception might be when a car is hit in the side, in which case the greater bumper heights on SUVs (as well as on pickups and some conventional vans, of course) might present a somewhat greater risk to the car occupants. And let's not overlook the fact that when one car hits another car in the side, the occupants of the car being hit are at considerably greater risk. SUV's probably just increase that risk incrementally.
[Most truck vs. car crash statistics I've seen lump SUV's, minivans, conventional vans and pickup trucks together in the "light truck" category. It's consequently very difficult to tell whether minivans and SUV's present comparable risks to passenger-car occupants. My guess is that the risks are largely the same when varying vehicle weights are taken into account. The one exception might be when a car is hit in the side, in which case the greater bumper heights on SUVs (as well as on pickups and some conventional vans, of course) might present a somewhat greater risk to the car occupants. And let's not overlook the fact that when one car hits another car in the side, the occupants of the car being hit are at considerably greater risk. SUV's probably just increase that risk incrementally.]
I gather much of the increased risk from collisions with SUV's comes from the fact that they're too high off the ground--a decision that has nothing to do with functionality and everything to do with market research, which shows that the sort of people who buy them want to look down on other drivers. In a crash, they ride up over a car's underbody, depriving the occupants of protection. That same embarassing styling decision (they always remind me of those stupid looking monster trucks) is responsible for their tendency to roll.
The bottom of a minivan is at about the same height as the bottom of a car, so the occupants of both have maximal protection.
>>> much of the increased risk from collisions with SUV's comes from the fact that they're too high off the ground--a decision that has nothing to do with functionality <<<
Josh;
In spite of the fact that most SUV drivers do not use them for that purpose, the high ground clearance is necessary because these vehicles are designed to be used off road. Without the high clearance they would have no function at all.
Tom
[, the high ground clearance is necessary because these vehicles are designed to be used off road. Without the high clearance they would have no function at all. ]
And we know how often drivers in NY go off-roading.
Hey, wouldn't it be cool is FOX built a Canyonerro just like it appeared on the simpsons?
"Top of the Line in Utility Sports. Unexplained fire are a matter for the courts."
The ability to save yourself at someone else's expense is a god given right. I thing that SUV's should be built without crumple zones so that the only thing that gets crumpled is the car you hit. Being an arnour buff I know that there are 2 ways to protect yourself. Speed and manuverability (like the M18 Hellcat) or sheer armour protection (like the King Tiger). If you choose one you must live with the consequincs of not having the other. SUV's lack braking power, handling and acceleration. All things that can let you avoid an accident. Cars (today) lack substance that can resist them being crumpled. If I could afford it and if it were legal, I'd drive a half track (probably US M3) or an armoured car.
BTW many people forget that there ARE SUV's that are both rugged and not big monsters. Jeeps, old land cruisers and Land Rover defenders are the best for off roading and are usually enbironmentally friendly. I plan to buy a Jeep.
If both cars are strong, then both parties will be injured.
Sure the only problems with the car would be broken glass and repairable dents, but what about the driver and passengers?
Well because SUV's cost so much and because so many people are anti-suv the chance of an SUV/SUV head on is minimal.
PS: As most people know crumple zones recude crash forces and ridig cars transmit the forces into the passenger area usually ripping loose the seats and throwing the ppl around. i think that cars should be built with steel framed seats welded to car frame and have 5 point seat belts. This way you become 1 with the car and won't get pitched around.
Then the heavier car would pretty much kill the other car and its occupants.
As for minivans vs. SUVs: isn't the distinction between them mainly one of styling?
Not at all. "True" minivans (all of them, now that the Ford Aerostar and Chevy Astro/GMC Safari have disappeared) are basically front-drive automobiles with larger bodies and beefed-up suspensions (Ford Windstar = Taurus, Dodge Grand Caravan = Intrepid, Dodge Caravan = Stratus, Pontiac Montana = Bonneville, Toyota Sienna = Camry, Mazda "new" MPV = 929). Even the four-wheel-drive Chrysler minivan is basically a front-drive car with a rear axle that can take power under certain circumstances. SUVs are rear-drive trucks with passenger accommodations and enclosed cargo space in lieu of an open box. They are recognized as such by the federal government, and are therefore exempt from many of the fuel economy and safety standards applicable to minivans and cars. Would you drive a car today that took 50 feet longer to stop from 70 mph than a 1959 Cadillac Sedan de Ville? I didn't think so. But if you drive a 2000 Cadillac Escalade, that's what you're getting. (A 2000 Sedan de Ville stops in 52 feet LESS than the 1959 model. 1959: 230 feet; 2000 de Ville: 178 feet; 2000 Escalade: 280 feet. Source: manufacturer brochure [1959], Car and Driver [both 2000 models]). Admittedly, I picked those particular examples because they represent the extremes and because I just happen to have access to some '59 sales literature, but most SUVs are over 230 feet and all minivans are under 190 feet, with the Windstar and Sienna in a statistical dead heat at 177 and 178 feet respectively.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[True" minivans (all of them, now that the Ford Aerostar and Chevy Astro/GMC Safari have disappeared) are basically front-drive automobiles with larger bodies and beefed-up suspensions (Ford Windstar = Taurus, Dodge Grand Caravan = Intrepid, Dodge Caravan = Stratus, Pontiac Montana = Bonneville, Toyota Sienna = Camry, Mazda "new" MPV = 929). Even the four-wheel-drive Chrysler minivan is basically a front-drive car with a rear axle that can take power under certain circumstances. SUVs are rear-drive trucks with passenger accommodations and enclosed cargo space in lieu of an open box.]
Muddying the waters a bit, there are a couple of SUV's that actually are car-based rather than truck-based. These include the Honda CRV, which is based on the Civic platform; the Lexus RX300, based on one of the Lexus car models whose name or number I can't recall; and the Subaru Forester, the most car-like of all, and based on an older wagon platform with some parts from the current Outback wagon. I also believe that the Toyota RAV is car-based, though I'm not completely sure. On the other hand, the smallest (and least expensive) SUV on the market today, the KIA Sportage, has a full truck-style ladder frame and from what I've heard is a very sturdy little vehicle indeed.
Not sure what to call the Honda CRV; I don't call their Odyssey a minivan either, although it's closer to that than an SUV. And neither would I give the Forester an SUV designation. The Odyssey and Forester are cars as far as the government is concerned; don't know about the CRV. The Lexus RX300 is classified as a truck and is based on the Toyota Passport, which has a truck frame.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And if you happen to live on the north shore of Long Island, SUV's sure come in handy with all the bad roads we got. Many roads flood due to poor drainage, and when it snows roads are very icy and snow covered. Plus there are roads that are in poor shape and you need a vehicle that can "stomach" the rough terrain. I understand the need for SUV's, it's the LUXURY SUV's that annoy the heck out of me.
I was wishing I had one on Monday when Glen Cove avenue flooded out.
Frankly, I don't think very many people are driving SUV's because they're safe. An article in the Times today on Ford's phony new fuel economy commitment asserted that beyond the weight of a mid-sized car, little is gained by way of occupant safety, while destructive potential continues to increase.
[Frankly, I don't think very many people are driving SUV's because they're safe. An article in the Times today on Ford's phony new fuel economy commitment asserted that beyond the weight of a mid-sized car, little is gained by way of occupant safety, while destructive potential continues to increase.]
I haven't seen the article, but it sounds sort of dubious. More than weight is behind SUV safety. They're built much more sturdily than cars - my Rodeo doesn't feel like it's assembled out of many components, but rather like it's been carved out of a huge block of iron. And the higher seating position in SUV's provides a big extra measure of safety in a side-impact collision.
But also realize that the perception of safety and superior handling has led many SUV drivers down a dangerous path. An SUV has nothing that will stop it on a sheet of ice, yet we've all seen SUV's speeding along in treacherous weather.
SUVs have a crash advantage going up against smaller vehicle, but a rollover disadvantage, due to their higher center of gravity. So a quick sudden turn to avoid a potential road hazard can cause the SUV to become unstable, which is why their forbearers, the Jeep series, always have those rollbars.
In general, if you have a reason to drive in snow, mud, up steep areas that need four-wheel drive or do a lot of off-road driving, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to buy an SUV. But for the many people who buy them (especially the ones buying the Lincoln or Cadillac versions), who never plan to take their vehicles an inch of asphalt, an SUVs purpose is wasted and they would be better off buying a well-outfitted mini-van.
A front wheel drive mini-van serves many purposes and is a lot of fun
to drive. I'm in love with our 2000 Windstar and don't worry about it turning over, unless I drive it like an idiot! It goes in the snow with Traction Control and beeps when you back up and are too close
to something. I never even considered an SUV with their awful gas mileage.
Chuck Greene
[A front wheel drive mini-van serves many purposes and is a lot of fun
to drive. I'm in love with our 2000 Windstar and don't worry about it turning over, unless I drive it like an idiot! It goes in the snow with Traction Control and beeps when you back up and are too
close to something. I never even considered an SUV with their awful gas mileage.]
I do like minivans, and we had considered buying one before finally choosing the Rodeo. And you are right that the Ford Windstar is an excellent model. It received among the highest crash-test ratings of any vehicle. In fact, largely as a result of those ratings, demand increased considerably ... and you can guess what else increased :-) Well-equipped new Windstars are going in the low 30's today. Incidentally, the Toyota Sienna minivan received the highest crash test rating of any vehicle in one of the tests (both the government and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety run similar tests). Not surprisingly, it also is in short supply and has become quite costly.
At any rate, we decided on a SUV rather than a minivan basically because of style and image, safety being similar. There was just something a little too, well, _bourgeois_ about a minivan for our tastes. As they say, your mileage may vary.
[At any rate, we decided on a SUV rather than a minivan basically because of style and image, safety being similar. There was just something a little too, well, _bourgeois_ about a minivan for our tastes. As they say, your mileage may vary.]
SUV's seem ersatz to me--they're all about pretending we still have long hair and drive cross country in shifts, rather than to the local shopping mall to buy Pampers. At least a minivan is honest about what it is . . .
Peter:
We have leased the last two Ford Windstars . In 98 we had a GL Model
that had quite a few options. Our lease ran out in 2 years, and because of a plan that my company had, plus a little extra down payment, and the fact that we traded in our 98 with low mileage and it was real clean, we were able to lease an SEL ($32,015) sticker price.
What it came down to was I'm driving a better model for $20 less
a month. So the high sticker price didn't hurt me, your residual
value is higher after 2 years so you don't get hurt by buying the
gussier model. If you were to buy one, it would be a different story.
Everybody's case will be different, so you buy what you can afford and what has the features you like. Can we say the same about subway cars? Not really.
Chuck Greene
[SUVs have a crash advantage going up against smaller vehicle, but a rollover disadvantage, due to their higher center of gravity. So a quick sudden turn to avoid a potential road hazard can cause the SUV to become unstable, which is why their forbearers, the Jeep series, always have those rollbars.]
Much controversy surrounds the issue of SUV rollover risks. As best can be determined, only the smaller, short-wheelbase SUV's have significantly higher risks; these include the Chevy Tracker/Suzuki Vitara, Kia Sportage, Jeep Wrangler and possibly the Honda CRV. The midsize and larger models present a rollover risk only modestly higher than that of passenger cars - which doesn't mean much when you consider that passenger car rollovers are very rare.
In addition, while rollovers in a SUV are obviously no laughing matter, they are almost never fatal if the occupants are wearing seatbelts, except maybe in cases of very high-speed wipeouts.
...my Rodeo doesn't feel like it's assembled out of many components...
But it actually is - it's traditional bolted-together body-on-frame construction, like cars were back in the old days and like trucks still are. All four of our cars - Windstar, Mustang, Sable, Thunderbird - are unibody or modified unibody construction, where the welded structure of the vehicle serves as a space frame.
SUVs do not serve a legitimate purpose for the vast majority of people who drive them. Where I work, most are driven by women who also put on makeup and yap constantly on their cell phones while running stop signs in the parking lot and driving down the Garden State Parkway. On the ground floor of the parking structure where I park we have what is known as "Suburban Row", where the folks with the biggest SUVs park (the upper levels of the deck aren't as tall and, while they will fit, it's too close for comfort); there are four Excursions, two Escalades, one Navigator (used to be two until she traded it for an Excursion), two Suburbans, one Lexus, and a dozen or so Expeditions, Yukons, etc. EVERY ONE is driven by a woman. NONE of these vehicles will ever see off-road service or be driven in snow, at least under their present ownership. ONE of the Expeditions is used for trailer towing on occasion (the owner rides horses). The smaller SUVs that are scattered throughout the deck are also largely driven by women, although there are two Jeeps (a CJ-7 and a Cherokee) which have male drivers, but knowing the owners I'd also question the Cherokee's usefulness too (the CJ-7's owner is an active rescue squad member so that one does get driven in all kinds of weather).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[On the ground floor of the parking structure where I park we have what is known as "Suburban Row", where the folks with the biggest SUVs park (the upper levels of the deck aren't as tall and, while they will fit, it's too close for comfort); there are four Excursions, two Escalades, one Navigator (used to be two until she traded it for an Excursion), two Suburbans, one Lexus, and a dozen or so Expeditions, Yukons, etc. EVERY ONE is driven by a woman. NONE of these vehicles will ever see off-road service or be driven in snow, at least under their present ownership.]
Speaking as the lessee of a midsize SUV, I too find it a bit hard to defend the biggest, land-yacht models. We had some time to kill in the Isuzu showroom while waiting for the paperwork to be completed. I was checking out the Trooper, which is Isuzu's full-size SUV, comparable to a Tahoe or Expedition, maybe a Grand Cherokee. I couldn't imagine myself driving such a huge hulking vehicle, and I'm not some petite little 100-pound female either. And let's not forget that there are even larger SUV models, such as the Suburban and Excursion. As far as I'm concerned, a midsize SUV (Rodeo/Explorer/Blazer/Montero) should be sufficient for almost all drivers.
Actually, the SUV that really caught my eye was the Isuzu VehiCross, which looks not so much like a motor vehicle as like a new high-tech sneaker from Nike.
>>> Speaking as the lessee of a midsize SUV, I too find it a bit hard to defend the biggest, land-yacht models. <<<
Peter;
That's pretty disingenuous of you. Unless you have a specific need for an SUV such as a weekend cottage at the end of twenty miles of unimproved road, you are being just a little less selfish than the owners of the biggest land yacht models for all the reasons already posted by the anti SUV people. It is a bit like a Mercedes owner complaining that his next door neighbor who drives a Rolls Royce is guilty of conspicuous consumption.
Tom
It's definately the bigger ones that the snobs (especially women) just like to drive. The Navigator, Expedition, Escalade particularly come to mind. Those vehicles are monsters, and are especially popular with the lifestyle of the rich snooty north shore women.
Anybody's guess as to why women love these luxury sport "utes" the most? Perhaps women are just getting to selfish and demanding these days.
A certain percentage of women have more vanity than common sense, so they like things that are bigger and more expensive - who's got the biggest diamond, the fanciest clothes, etc. - and this simply extends into cars. (Insecurity plays a role here too - the big SUV gives them a sense of security, no matter how false that may be.) About the same percentage of men have the same problem, they just tend to demonstrate it with faster and/or noisier cars, bigger power tools, bigger TVs, etc. Many women, including a good number of the otherwise sensible ones, also tend to feel that they are invincible, and the big SUVs help reinforce that.
I consider myself thankful that my wife and daughters have always remained relatively sensible in that regard - my younger daughter loves her '93 Sable, and although my wife does drive a '94 Mustang convertible, at least it has the economical V-6, not the gas-guzzling V-8. (Yes, the '96 Windstar is mine - part commuter car, part family hauler, part lumber truck, part Ntrak van. And it gets 24.5 mpg on the NJ-NC run.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry, but most Active Lifestyle Vehicles (HA!!) have some of the worst build qualities in the industry. Most SUVs are built body on frame, like cars from half a century ago. Cars are unibody, which are more rigid. Have you ever seen the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash tests on Dateline NBC? Most SUVs will crumple like a tin can in an offset frontal impact. Also, since half of the new vehicles sold today are SUVs, chances are likely if you get into a wreck, you'll run into another SUV. How safe will you be when your 4000 pound runs into another 4000 pound or heavier SUV?
Have you ever seen the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash tests on Dateline NBC?
Before taking their word for it, I'd make sure there aren't too many car commercials during the show.
The IIHS is not funded by NBC, they conduct these crash tests whether or not NBC is taping it or not. As the name implies, it's funded by insurance companies. It is the insurance companys' best interest to have well built cars and SUVs so that they will not have to pay out as much money for repairs. They crash test these vehicles in order to show car companies weaknesses in their products.
[The IIHS is not funded by NBC, they conduct these crash tests whether or not NBC is taping it or not. As the name implies, it's funded by insurance companies. It is the insurance companys' best interest to have well built cars and SUVs so that they will not have to pay out as much money for repairs. They crash test these vehicles in order to show car companies weaknesses in their products.]
The federal National Highway Safety Administration also conducts similar, but not identical, crash testing on most cars and trucks. Some vehicles perform quite differently on the two sets of tests. My Isuzu Rodeo did much better on the NHTSA frontal-impact tests than on the IIHS's.
Almost every car does better in the NHTSA frontal impact test. This is so because, the government crashes cars straight into a wall. In this type of impact, the energy of the impact is distrubuted evenly along the whole front of the car. Therefore, only the front end will crumple, just like it is designed to. However, with the IIHS offset test, they try simulate a real world crash by crashing it only on one side of the car. Which means that the one side has to absorb the entire impact of the crash, this is where most cars perform poorly.
However NBC only has to show the tests that satisfies their agenda, and say what they want (since it's NBC that does the talking during the report).
I'm being too cynical anyway.
[I haven't seen the article, but it sounds sort of dubious.]
Dunno. I think they referred to some studies, but I didn't save it.
Where do you get your statistics and facts that SUV's are safer than cars? I've been a cop for over 18 years and I don't remember any accidents where a passenger car flipped over, although I've seen flipped over SUV's. Although 4 wheel drive helps you if you get stuck in snow, ice, or mud, it doesn't keep you from skidding. Yet so many SUV drivers speed like crazy in inclement weather.
I wonder how many accidents are caused by no visibility to other cars. It is almost impossible to inch past a stop sign if a SUV is parked on or near the corner. Although as a cop I can't condone keying any vehicles I probably would get satisfaction if one of those SUV's are scratched!!
And G-d forbid you park in a parking spot in a parking lot next to one of those trucks. You can never pull out safely. (Mini-vans are no better)
Another thing is how SUV's bully other drivers. Just try to get on my tail on the parkway and flash your high beams at me. All you'll get is a front end accident as I will slow down considerably rather than change lanes.(only in my car, not my motorcycle) And then I'll own your house.
And by the way, all the extra lights, like the bright foglights in front are all illegal. Before I made sergeant that was my favorite summons to give.
[Although 4 wheel drive helps you if you get stuck in snow, ice, or mud, it doesn't keep you from skidding. Yet so many SUV drivers speed like crazy in inclement weather.]
That's just plain stupidity on the part of the drivers. I certainly have no illusions that 4wd makes you invulnerable. BTW, the owner's manual for my Rodeo is very explicit about what 4wd can and cannot do.
[Another thing is how SUV's bully other drivers. Just try to get on my tail on the parkway and flash your high beams at me.]
I can't stand that sort of schmucky behavoir either, and I'm certainly not going to change because I now have a SUV. Actually, in my experience, the rudest drivers' vehicles tend to fall into two very distinct categories: (1) beat-up old junk cars, and (2) expensive European sedans, BMW's in particular.
[Actually, in my experience, the rudest drivers' vehicles tend to fall into two very distinct categories: (1) beat-up old junk cars, and (2) expensive European sedans, BMW's in particular.]
E.g., the poor and nouveau riche business types. Pretty much what I've noticed too.
[E.g., the poor and nouveau riche business types. Pretty much what I've noticed too]
I'm nouveau riche and I don't even drive a car.
>>>(2) expensive European sedans, BMW's in particular.<<<
Which reminds me of a joke...
What's the diference between a BMW and a porcupine?
The porcupine has its pricks on the outside..8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> But I also want to keep my family and myself as safe as possible, and God knows there are plenty of horrible drivers out there. I should sacrifice our safety for the good of society? No [deleted] way in creation! Call me selfish, but that's the way it is. <<<
Peter;
If safety is so important, did you give any consideration to the type of truck that Brinks Security uses? Then you would not only be safer in a collision, but also have greater protection against car-jacking.
Tom
I just bought the August 2000 Issue of Railpace Magazine. The subject is "Unveiling Acela." There are a lot of great Acela pictures.
It also mentions the progress on AEM7ACs and the Capstone fleet. If everything is right, we can see HHL-8s on revenue service next month.
Chaohwa
KEWL, USPS is delaying me in getting a copy, too bad I won't be home tommorrow....
If the C3's are Dual Mode, Y is it that they are always a express Train to NY? I have never seen a C3 that is a Kew Gardens, Forest hills, NY. Or even more, a Woodside and NY? Even going Eastbound back to Jamaica?. Do the C3's stop anywhere between NY and Jamaica?
Also, if the C3's are the Dual modes, what are the other Bilevels?
C3 are not dual modes. C3 are the double decker passanger cars that take Head End Power (HEP) from the new locos.
There are two types of new locomoties that LIRR bought. The look almost the same but one does not have dual mode. Also per LIRR rules any dual mode trainset running into Penn must have a dual mode loco on each end to protect power in the 3rd rail gaps when going through interlockings.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), a modern diesel loco uses electric wheel motors, which operate on power generated by an alternator, which is turned by a diesel engine. Other than a 3rd rail shoe and, perhaps, a transformer, what has to be added to a diesel loco to create a dual mode loco?
The C-3s stop at Hunterspoint and Long Island City (I know, not very funny).
Past instances of bilevels stopping at Woodside:
Instance #1: During a recent Ronkonkoma line GO involving trains reversing up the Central Branch (non-electrified) they had to use C-3 trainsets on a weekend from Penn Station to Ronkonkoma, and they ran hourly stopping at Woodside (I have pictures of this, when I get them scanned I'll put them up). Although all 5 trainsets used had DM30ACs (the 500 series engines), one did not run to Penn Station on its trips and instead terminated at Jamaica (westbound) and originated at Woodside (eastbound). As a result, the schedule showed one train every 4 or 5 hours as a "Change at Jamaica".
Instance #2: For the past few years sometime in the fall the LIRR runs a special direct train to Port Jefferson at around 9:AM, replacing the usual electric. (Last year it was a Weekend, the year before it was a Monday). It's called the Breast Cancer Victory train. Last year, they ran the 2 Fl-9s and the C-1 trainset on the run, replacing a Ronkonkoma train (imagine the looks of Ronkonkoma passengers when they realized they had to change at Hicksville, and the happiness of Port Jeff riders at a one-seat ride!). The first 2 cars were reserved for the Victory tour, the last 2 for the Harvest tour (they had to change at Ronkonkoma, after which the cars were opened up, and I was treated to an extremely rare ride in an empty C-1.)
From what I heard from my brother, who's daily commute involes riding the E line, I hear that at 42nd, this E turned into a C! He says that the E Conductor said this Train will now be going uptown. We will not be going to Queens, Uptown!. He said at least 2 E's did this and then a 3rd E came and went to Queens. He mentioned that there was an electrical problem at the station ahead.
By the way has any1 found the E Straphanger shirt yet? If so, please Email me at Railroadman43@altavista.com and let me know where I can get it thank you.
I know my 8:15 D at kings hwy went upstairs at West 4th, operated as a C local to upstairs 50th St, then off to 59th St but I left it for the E at 42nd St.
6th Ave Express service was being diverted for a BIE and F and Q's ran local on 6th Ave.
Maybe all the extra service on the 8th Ave local caused the E reroute?
I suppose that everyone, by now, has heard that a retaining wall at 53rd St. & B'Way collapsed. This forced numerous reroutes and abandonments.. This was the 4th building collapse in the last 2-3 weeks that has caused delays to the subway system. We should be getting used to it by now.
My F ride home yeasterday was a disaster too. My train died at 23-Ely, then I transfered to the G (waited forever for it), transfered to the E at Roosevelt, wished I hadn't (it was crawling), then transfered back to the F at Union Tpke (we just missed one pulling away!) The trip took an extra hour.
I also had my friend and coworker with me.
Andrew
Exactly how does a train stall? When the T/O applies power the train don't move I guess.
Your F died I had NJT 4105 die while riding Train 807 to Lake Hopatcong. It was after 7:30 when being towed in NJT Train 807 arrived. Definite need for either F59PHIs,P42s(MN can transfer some P32s to Hoboken),or operation of the Lackawanna Cutoff with ALP44s
That whole thing reminds me of sometime in the late 1960’s when disgruntled passengers forced a B train to travel past its 168th Street terminus, and terminate at the A northernmost terminus at 207th Street.
But back to the present: Yesterday, I was traveling uptown on the C train on the local track to 59th Street, then when I was going downtown, I noticed a northbound C train on the express track.
IIRC, that particular B train was slated to deadhead to the 207th St. shops anyway, so you couldn't blame the passengers for doing what they did.
A year or two ago at 14th St., I saw a southbound 3 train pull in on the local track, and at the same time, a southbound 1 pulled in on the express track.
I was once waiting for the uptown IRT at Columbus Circle. A 1 zoomed past the station on the express track. Then a 2 entered the station on the local track -- and pulled right out without stopping.
I actually RODE on a southbound 1 once which was running express. This was back in the late 70s, and an R-21 or R-22 headed the consist.
I also happened to catch a northbound 3 train running local on another occasion, from 59th St. to 66th or possibly 72nd.
During OPSail I saw the same exact thing at 14st as well.
This is done all the time when there are problems in Queens-the E runs as a C, and the F runs to 21-Queensbridge.
I just visited eBay to look if there are some subway maps I can bid on. I feel that new comers are bidding crazier and crazier. A 1958 NYC Subway is bid to 65 dollars, and there are more than two days to end this bid.
I started to bid subway maps on eBay ten months ago. At first I felt I overbid. Right now I feel the prices are pretty cheap compared to final bid prices.
I feel that buying subway maps at railroadiana shows is much cheaper than bidding on eBay. However, sometimes luck will be on your side. You will get cheaper prices at some instances.
Be sure to bid smart. Bid at the last moment.
Chaohwa
I agree. I saw a pair of 1972 maps go for $76.00.
They are not worth that much but when someone wants the item bad enough they forget about price.
Luckily for me I already have all these maps in my collection so I don't have to bid on those.
A few months ago an R46 rollsign went for $40. This month, it went for $86. What's going on!
People are suffering from P.T. Barnum disease: "There's a sucker born every minute."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Though the LIRR and Metro North (Harlem and Hudson) use the same line of electric cars (M1 and M3, I believe), they are not quite the same. The Metro-North trains have been overhauled (most LIRR trains have not) and are generally much better.
But one silly little question: Why do all the Metro North M1's and M3's have that blue stripe when only a minority of the LIRR do? Was that part of the overhaul? Also, is it my imagination or were there far more blue-striped LIRR cars about a decade ago?
:) Andrew
Also why do the LIRR cars have yellow in the front and the Metro North does not?
I think its because the LIRR has railroad crossings and needs a "Visibility" stripe.
Metro North has no grade crossings? At least that service area has it's priorities straight!
Once again Long Island just can't modernize! Exactly why are we stuck with so many grade crossings while Metro North riders aren't?
Metro North has grade crossings above White Plains,
But there's none in their electric territory? If that's true that's pretty damn good.
Metro-North's Harlem Line is electrified well beyond White Plains--all the way to Brewster North I think.
:) Andrew
Wow, that's pretty far up. Would you say MN has a much higher % of electrified territory than LIRR?
MN is much smaller, comparison is impossible.
But there's none in their electric territory? If that's true that's pretty damn good...referring to grade crossings in electrified territory.
Metro-North has several grade crossings in electrified territory.
Hudson Line: Brook St at Croton MP 34.5
Harlem Line: Virginia Rd in N White Plains,Cleveland St,Lakeview Av and Commerce St in Valhalla,Stevens Av in Mt Pleasant,Roaring Brook Rd in Chappaqua,City Water in Mt Kisco,Green Lane in Bedford Hills,Jay St and Dynamite in Katonah,Deans Bridge Rd in Croton Falls (closed),Nelson Blvd and Brewster Highway in Brewster.
New Canaan Branch:Crescent St,Glenbrook Rd,Reeves, and Riverbend Drive in Glenbrook,Omega Dr,Largo Dr,Camp Av and Hoyt St in Springdale, Talmadge Hill Rd,Richmond Hill Rd and Grove St in New Canaan.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think that the LIRR's top priority (even higher than GCT access) should be the elimination of the Main Line grade crossings in New Hyde Park at Covert Ave., S. 12th St. and New Hyde Park Rd., and those in Mineola at Main St., Willis Ave. and Roslyn Rd.
Then next should be the Grand Central access and the third track from Floral Park to Hicksville. Finally, eliminate grade crossings out to Ronkonkoma on the Main Line and Patchogue on the Montauk line.
Anyone have other opinions?
LIRR History Website
As a railfan I happen to like railroad crossings so I'm biased. But trying to look at it objectively and considering the amount spent on Herricks Road I really don't want my tax dollars to pay for a bunch of others. Maybe one street in New Hyde Park could have an overpass such as Mineola Blvd is in Mineola so emergency vehicles can cross without waiting.
[I think that the LIRR's top priority (even higher than GCT access) should be the elimination of the Main Line grade crossings in New Hyde Park at Covert Ave., S. 12th St. and New Hyde Park Rd., and those in Mineola at Main St., Willis Ave. and Roslyn Rd.]
Considering what a fiasco the Herricks Road grade crossing elimination turned out to be, I shudder at the thought of the LIRR tackling several such projects ....
If they were smart (which they weren't), they should have done all the grade crossings at the same time!
Peter, why do you think that Herricks was a fiasco? Was it that much over budget or late (I have no idea about that)? To tell you the truth, I think that the final result is pretty good. I drive home from Mineola every day and not only has the grade crossing been eliminated, but the traffic flow through the Herricks Blvd./Old Country Rd./Rockaway Ave. intersection has been improved greatly and made safer, IMHO.
[Peter, why do you think that Herricks was a fiasco? Was it that much over budget or late (I have no idea about that)? To tell you the truth, I think that the final result is pretty good.]
I have heard that it took years and years to complete, and was over budget as well (dunno by how much). This is based on what I've heard, not personal experience, as I didn't move to Long Island and start taking the LIRR until the second half of 1997.
The real problem with the Herricks grade crossing elimination was that it was based on politics and not prioritized by need. The decision to eliminate it was based on one accident where I believe 9 teenagers died. One was the daughter of a state senator. Hence, we need to eliminate that killer. In the meantime, Covert Avenue has had far more accidents and should have been the first to go.
Electrification of Oyster Bay, the Central Branch, Montauk line to Patchogue and Port Jefferson the whole thing (I don't see the utility of electrifying to Yaphank or Riverhead).
Why electrify? With the new equipment the diesel lines are much more modern than the electrics.
Only until the new electric cars come in.
And it's not as if the diesel lines are automatically always more modern. In fact, the opposite is usually true and until 1999 it was for the LIRR.
I don't think the type of power controls how good or bad a line is. The West Hempstead Line is electric, but it is just as infrequent as the Oyster Bay Line and never is a one seat ride to Penn. I remember when the only electric trains that ran on the main line went only as far as East Williston (trivia-the only station on Hillside Av E/O the 179th Street IND station) on the Oyster Bay Line. Anything E/O the Oyster Bay Cutoff at Mineola was deisel and the trains ran frequently and were very crowded. Trains went either to Huntington or Port Jefferson.
In the long run, the whole thing should be electrified, to Greenport and Montauk and to Long Island City if it isn't abandoned first.
Electricity is cleaner, cheaper in the long run, more efficient, allows for faster trains and less maintenance overall.
All passenger RRs, even the lightly used Amtrak lines out in the Midwest should be electrified. Freight RRs should be electrified too, although I'm not sure if doing all of them is as good an idea.
If you already have to put in rails, ties, spikes and ballast, one might as well put up catenary wire.
Correction: The trains ran either to Port Jefferson or Ronkonkoma. (not Huntington)
No through service to Greenport even then?
No, not the regular main line service. There might have been a rush hour train or 2 on the Greenpointport line but the regular service was the same as today except the Huntington line went to Port Jeff instead of Huntington. Every hour there were 2 trains (each ½ hour there was either a train to Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma)The Oyster Bay Line altenated every hour to either Oyster Bay or East Williston. The E Williston train was the only electric going through Mineola. That's why there is a third rail to East Williston. When the Main Line was first electrified it only went to Hicksville and you had to change there for Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma. (Through diesel trains ran during rush hour) When the third rail reached Huntington that's when you had to start changing there for P Jefferson. You still had to change at Hicksville for Ronkonkoma until that electrification was finished. Its ironic that now that the island is alot more developed there's alot less trains to Port Jefferson than 30 years ago.
[Its ironic that now that the island is alot more developed there's alot less trains to Port Jefferson than 30 years ago.]
The answer can be found in each morning's parade of suit-covered anuses in Ronkonkoma.
More and more each day. The 4:06 AM from Ronkonkoma has standees virtually every AM.....
"The 4:06 AM from Ronkonkoma has standees virtually every AM....."
I'm guessing those aren't "suit-covered anuses" but probably "jeans-covered anuses" on that 4:06AM.
By observation only, I always thought that the Ronkonkoma branch had a much higher percentage of the blue-collar / construction worker crowd than the other lines. Is that perception accurate?
Chuck
["The 4:06 AM from Ronkonkoma has standees virtually every AM....."
I'm guessing those aren't "suit-covered anuses" but probably "jeans-covered anuses" on that 4:06AM.
By observation only, I always thought that the Ronkonkoma branch had a much higher percentage of the blue-collar / construction worker crowd than the other lines. Is that perception accurate?]
Depends on the station. Central Islip, Brentwood and Wyandanch, all of which are located in relatively low-income areas, indeed attract many blue-collar types, while Ronkonkoma itself, and to a somewhat lesser extent Deer Park, are s.c.a. territory all the way.
Because LIRR cars are ugly but MN's aren't! Seriously, the blue belly bands and smaller letterboard signing added class to those cars.
Most Long Island M-1/3 cars lost their blue stripes a while back. They all had them initially. I don't remember the exact reasoning, but I'm pretty sure that the LIRR's lack of a paint shop had something to do with it - it was easier to lose the stripes than maintain them.
Metro-North also has M-5s and red-striped CDOT M-2/4/6es.
To answer another question, the ends of LI cars are yellow to tell them apart from MN ones. (Maybe that's not the real reason, but I find it to be a handy explanation, and I'm sticking with it until someone says otherwise.)
I don't like the yellow, I prefer the blue of MNRR.
MNRR trains look a lot better than LIRR ones. However was at Wantagh today and saw M-1/3's express and going over 60mph in both directions.
Also saw a double decker train at around 4:50pm, speeding through (blowing it's horn of course) heading eastbound, it was a long train and had engines on both ends.
The Babylon branch rules. Mainly for the modern stations, lack of grade crossings, speed, and frequent service.
07/29/2000
[The Babylon branch rules. Mainly for the modern stations, lack of grade crossings, speed, and frequent service.]
True, but on the side of the coin there are a lot of those stations, when running local it seems to take forever. I get on at Massapequa, I can imagine someone getting on at Lindenhurst. That's 12 stations, not counting Lynbrook and St.Albans. That's why I always go to Farmingdale (on weekends) for a different change of scenery. Sometimes to make it more interesting, I'll park at Massapequa and take LI Bus N80 to Hicksville or N81 to Bethpage, that's when Metrocard comes in handy!
Bill "Newkirk"
True, there are alot of stops on the Babylon branch, but an express must be pretty fast. They don't have any expresses that stop at Massapequa in the peak?
07/30/2000
[True, there are alot of stops on the Babylon branch, but an express must be pretty fast. They don't have any expresses that stop at Massapequa in the peak? ]
Yes there are expresses that stop there in the peak, but not off peak of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you rode the Babylon Branch 30 years ago, you wouldn't be extolling its "virtue" of no grade crossings! Once you got east of Freeport, the ONLY place that was elevated was in the Massapequa area. The rest of the line had dozens of grade crossings. I remember well the grade-crossing elimination in Babylon; that one opened in mid-1963.
I remember a trip on brand new MP75 "zip cars" in 1964 when the motorman/engineer's whistle valve broke....no blowing for the grade crossings on THAT trip. (The little pin that held the metal part the rope attached to fell out, went right out the door....no fixing that one untilit hit a shop.)
I caught it! I caught it! I finally rode the R-142 on the 6 line today. I wrote a brief description of it on my web page. Please visit, and check it out. Go here to read it.
"These seat fold up to allow wheelchairs to fit in the space."
I've always wondered, I've never seen belts on the wheelchair seats like on Buses. Won't the wheelchair passenger roll around if the ride is rough?
"As far as I know, the trains can operate in single units."
The trains cannot be operated in single units. They only have operating positions on the "A" cars at the #1 end. The "B" cars don't have any.
That's the...
running on...
's
Questions & Answers.
It's obvious that you kept yourself cooped up in the lead car for the entire trip, or at least long enough to make some generalizations. For starters, you will notice that the door alignment varies from A cars (those with cabs) to B cars (those without).
What do you mean by parallel seating?
As someone else pointed out, these cars can't operate as singles. On the other hand, they're not exactly married configurations, either.
Hi all,
I've set up a website for all future links to subway Simulator-related for users of Microsoft Train Simulator (such as subway cars, scenery, routes, etc.) and to set up SubSimTalk (like SubTalk here) for all feedbacks among future MS Train Simulator users who wants to see Subway-related stuff to their collection.
Right now it's just one page and I would appreciate all feedbacks on the following:
--How to improve this site.
--How and where do I set up WebBBS (like SubTalk) on my website.
--Providing links to SubSim related sites.
--Suggestions for future developers that will make subway cars, routes, etc.
Visit at: http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Mike the Mailman
adler1969@aol.com
--How and where do I set up WebBBS (like SubTalk) on my website.
WebBBS is available as shareware by following the hyperlink at the very bottom of this page (or any other SubTalk page for that matter).
It can be rather complicated to configure and get working (I'm still not 100% certain how I got WebBBS working on my websites). But once I got my installations up and running, I've been very happy with the program. I can't think of any other program that even comes close in terms of flexibility and features.
However, WebBBS requires that you have access to your website server via Telnet and/or FTP and the ability to set various file permissions, etc... That's something that I seriously doubt is possible on your AOL service or any of the "free" web hosting services such as Geocities or Xoom.
BTW, I have my own "subway simulator" program which I use to design subway trains, stations, skyscrapers and even entire cities. It's called AutoCAD and can be found on www.autodesk.com. Shelf price is only about $4000 unless you're lucky enough to have acquired a copy by some other means. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
A few questions:
1. Why have the fares for pretty much everything in the Northeast gone steadily up in the past year (about $1 every few months)?
2. Why does Amtrak segregate short and long distance travelers on their Empire Corridor, and block the door so the short-distance people can't get to the café? (Even on trains only to Albany).
3.
Other than riding Amtrak for the sake of taking the train period I don't even take it seriously as transportation anymore. Of course I live too far from it. But trying to figure out the extremes of some of their rules and practices is ludicrous. Sometimes i THINK THEY HAVE SOME ADMINISTRATORS WHO HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO BUT COME UP WITH MORE SILLY PRACTICES. For those who are too young to remember what US train travel used to be like travel Europe for a few weeks, you'll see. Hate to admit it but because they offer SERVICE I ride Greyhound more often than Amtrak; sorry.[for the fans and myself too]
Why does Amtrak segregate short and long distance travelers on their Empire Corridor, and block the door so the short-distance people can't get to the café?
I've never experienced that, and for a long time I was a regular rider to Poughkeepsie from New York (connecting at that time from a Silver Service train from North Carolina). I'll be on the Maple Leaf in a couple of weeks and if possible I'll try and observe that (my wife and I are going all the way to Toronto so it wouldn't affect us).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As for the fares going up and up and up, Amtrak will raise fares to whatever the market will bear. That's known as economics.
The fares haven't gone up only on the Northeast Corridor. Out here on the Pacific Surfliner route (formerly known as the San Diegans), the fares have headed towards outer space as I found last month.
I used to think nothing of using the train to go from Santa Ana (nearest where I live in Tustin) to San Diego, and the fare had been $24.00 round trip for years. Last month, I called for schedules (getting through their automated info system for this route is more difficult than winning the lottery....) and also fare information, and it has jumped 50% to $36.00 round trip. Even with the high gasline prices, I'm back to driving, as it's a hell of a lot cheaper than Amtrak's fare (can go down and back for about $15.00 in fuel...)
Here I go Amtrak bashing again. The cute trick I detest on long distance, reserved seats: those who book earliest get lower fares; as the train fills up the fares go up [sounds like airline stuff?] If you're one of the last to get a reservation your fare might be almost double what the early birds pay. Then what if your plans don't work out? Cancel, pay a penalty, and then top dollar because you were delayed a day or two. The old steam roads never would have got away with it. Fares were set by ICC and everyone paid the same.
So the government engaged in price fixing instead?
Amtrak fares, especially in the Northeast, have been rising to the stratosphere. This is part of the Congressional mandate to make an operating profit by 2003(?). As long as enough people keep paying the sky-high fares, they'll keep edging up.
I've only been a few rides on the Empire Corridor, and did not observe this kind of segregation. I did notice on the southbound Adirondack that a car was set aside for those going from Montreal to NYC, but the car was not blocked off in any way. If this is indeed the practice on a train, I'd suggest complaining about it, especially with the recent "service guarantee"-- prohibiting access to the cafe car certainly is a cause for dissatisfaction, and sounds like a pretty idiotic thing to do.
A news item appearing on yesterday's BLE website expresses concern that the Acela fiasco may hamper Amtrak's ability to achieve congressionally-mandated economic self-sufficiency by 2003. It re-hashes the problems encountered thus far in trying to get the Acelas to work. It also serves to make the litany of R-142 problems look trivial (opinion).
Bob
As to NEC fares, nope. Amtrak is in direct competition with the air shuttles on the NEC. As the air shuttle fare is paid by business people, Amtrak fares tend to follow the same amounts.
Amtrak's move to profitability (The ENTIRE national Amtrak system, not just the NEC) is the Congressional Mandate. That's why you are seeing more and more package express cars on Amtrak trains - it's a big part of the bottom line, and it's getting bigger.
I have taken the Lake Shore Limited from Rochester south, and had full access to both diner and lounge car/cafe.....[I will taking it to Chicago soon, and will observe.....]
as far as (2)- was this northbound on the LSL? If so, perhaps you hit the Happy hour for sleeper passengers...
3. Why does Amtrak terminate most of its Northeast Corridor trains at Penn Station?
I can't for the life of me figure out why Amtrak isn't running more trains to Boston and Springfield. Can anyone tell me why?
THAT [supposedly] will be changing with Acela....
There aren't enough engines to run more trains to Boston. The new electric locomotive that went along with the Acela Express order, plus the Acela Express trainsets themselves, have to start service before more service is added to Boston.
Even after all the new equipment is working (fingers crossed), there will still be more service between NY and DC than NY and Boston-- I think the market for rail travel is just bigger south of NY than north.
Freight traffic on the Hellgate?
AFAIK, the hells gate bridge sees one freight train per day in each direction. It supposedly hauls garbage to Hunts point.
The Hell Gate Bridge has a dedicated track for freight, so it shouldn't interfere with Amtrak service.
Wow! You guy's are hard core! I'll admit I may have made some mistakes in my description of the R-142, but for a guy with bad vision I did pretty good. Anyway, I still think the cars are cool. By parallel seating, I mean seats that run along the length of the train. No seats facing front or back. The train is a big improvement on the R-110.
What is the real reason for parallel seats ? I guess it gives you more
"standee" room , plus it allows for easier passenger movement in the
car. With forward facing seats, you always have to climb over the person sitting in the aisle seat to get out. Our M-4 cars in Philly have forward facing seats withe those first 3 sets looking right out
the "railfan window.
Any comments?
Chuck Greene
Chuck,
In addition to the reasons that you described, the narrower width of the IRT cars (as compared to the BMT-IND equipment) dictates the use of parallel/bench seating. Having ridden the R142A test train, the bench seats are a MAJOR improvement over the "bucket" seats in the R62/R62A cars.
Tony
Thanks, Tony. I'm learning a lot from you guys about the NYC subway
system. I love this "board". I get my entertainment from it every day. I hope some of us can meet in Philly next weekend (Saturday)
for some railfanning!
Chuck Greene
Can anyone provide the names of resources (web-based or books) for information about the 5th Avenue elevated in Brooklyn? I have found a few track maps, but I am looking for pictures and dates of construction, operation and demolition, etc. Thanks,
Dave
The Fifth Avenue "L" was covered in the October, 1999 (history), November, 1999 (schedule changes), and December, 1999 (track plans) New York Division ERA BULLETINS. We may have some left; write to us at PO Box 3001, New York NY 10008. It's $1.50 per back issue.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Does ERA or the NYD currently have a web site?
Unfortunately, while ERA has an e-mail address, neither the NYD nor the ERA has a website. The NYD has had several false starts and is still interested in having a website. If anyone's interested in helping, e-mail us at the ERA's address, era@juno.com.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
If this would help, on page 117 of Stan Fischler's "The Subway" there is a picture of a train wreck on the 5th Av El in 1923 where several cars fell to the street.
Yes I've seen that - the wreck was at Flatbush Avenue & Atlantic Ave and BU Gates #913 and #919 fell of the El and were smashed to bits.
I wonder if there are photos in the "old els" section on this site.
wayne
I recommend the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" by James C. Greller and Edward B. Watson, published by N. J. International, Inc. of Hicksville, New York in 1987, soft cover, 120 pages, with photographs (some in color), drawings, and maps of all of Brooklyn's elevated lines, including the 5th Avenue line. It is packed with rare photos and a must for anyone interested in Brooklyn's rapid transit history.
>>>I recommend the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" by James C. Greller and Edward B. Watson, published
by N. J. International, Inc. of Hicksville, New York in 1987, soft cover, 120 pages, with photographs
(some in color), drawings, and maps of all of Brooklyn's elevated lines, including the 5th Avenue line. It is
packed with rare photos and a must for anyone interested in Brooklyn's rapid transit history. <<<
I've been trying to track that book down for the better part of a year. Once bookfinders.com did find it for me, but it had been sold by the time I tried to get it!
www.forgotten-ny.com
The book is damn near impossible to get but I've seen a copy of it at the Library of Congress in Washington. If you ever get down there, check it out. It's worth the trip.
Eric Dale Smith
I went to the Brooklyn Public Library (at Grand Army Plaza). The book is listed as a reference book, but like most things that I try to find in that branch - it's gone.
I purchased it at the Transit Museum bookstore in Brooklyn about 10 years ago. Occasionally B.Dalton or Barnes and Noble carries it, and the "Brooklyn Trolleys" title also by Greller and Watson. Both titles appear to go in and out of print.
The following info may help you find these books-
****************************
The Brooklyn Elevated (19??)
ISBN# 0-934088-20-9
****************************
Brooklyn Trolleys (1986)
ISBN# 0-934088-17-9
****************************
Both books published by-
N J Intl Incorporated
230 W Old Country Rd
Hicksville, NY 11801-4011
info@NJINTERNATIONAL.COM
http://www.njinternational.com/
(no way to order books from website)
I got my copy at the Shore Line Trolley Museum about 10 years ago. I've read it so much that all of the pages have separated from each other and the cover!
I got my copy at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum Gift Shop when it first came out, as we were a reseller of NJ International stuff, including Electric Lines.
Having followed this thread so far, I dragged my dogeaten copy off the shelf and looked up the stuff on the Brooklyn Bridge Railway and the connections to the BRT. Here's when each BRT line was connected to the Bridge at Sands Street: BU & Kings County leased trackage rights in 1897. Myrtle trains went to Park Row in June 1898, and Fulton in November, 1898. By 1900 the BRT operated the electric trains on the Bridge, but the Bridge trustees continued to operate the cable until 1908.
I got mine at a train show in Clark, NJ last year. Try Arnold Joseph. His store is listed in the Manhattan phone book.
1140 Broadway, Room 701, NYC to be exact. 212-532-0019. Located about 27 st by the way.
The Fifth Avenue El was opened in 1893-94 with its southernmost section running over Brooklyn's Third Avenue. The opening of the Fourth Avenue subway during the Dual Contracts took out the El's long healthy attendance and in its later years it was pretty much a ghost line. The El was closed (along with the Fulton Street El) in early June of 1940 when the BMT (along with the IRT) was taken over by the city. The steel from the Fifth Avenue portion of the line was later converted to scrap to aid America's massive military buildup whereas most of the Third Avenue structure was converted for use on the soon to be constructed Brooklyn Queens Expressway. The Fifth Avenue El ran past the LIRR Brooklyn terminal on Flatbush Avenue and before construction of the Fourth Avenue subway, took passengers over the Manhattan Bridge. Its pillars closely resembled that of Manhattan's Third Avenue El and its stringers were identical to those found on the Myrtle Avenue El and those supporting the local tracks of the still extant Brooklyn Broadway El east of Broadway Junction.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smit
The Fifth Ave. El connected to the Brooklyn Bridge via the Sands St. station, where many of the Brooklyn El lines converged at the Brooklyn end of the bridge. It never connected to the Manhattan Bridge.
None of the El lines connected to the Manhattan Bridge. When the bridge was built, there were plans for a four track elevated structure above Flatbush Ave. Extension to connect to the El lines at Myrtle Ave., Fulton St., and 5th Ave., but there was much oppositon to the construction of new El lines, so the tracks wound up being connected to a new subway under 4th Ave.
There were plans around 1920 or so to connect the Fulton St. El to the Manhattan Bridge via a tunnel connecting at DeKalb Ave., but this connection (the Ashland Place connection) was never built -- the IND Fulton St. subway was built instead.
-- Ed Sachs
You're right, the Fifth Avenue El did run over the Brooklyn Bridge. However, I distinctly recall reading that not long after the Manhattan Bridge was opened that there was a brief connection with one
of the Brooklyn Els (with the Fourth Avenue subway already in the planning stages this arrangement was never meant to be permanent). I think it was the Fifth Avenue line but I could be wrong.
Eric Dale Smith
The Manhattan Bridge subway bridge tracks never connected to any of the els which ran thru Sands St. Trollys used these tracks from 1913-1915, when the 4th Ave/Sea Beach subway opened, using the south side tracks to Chambers St. The north side Broadway tracks opened in 1918.
At least that's what i've read.
One possibility in the early years was service to Ninth Av, via the subway and Manhattan Bridge connecting with el trains from 5th Av. there (West End and Culver runs)...
Thank you, Ed. That's fascinating.
[Its pillars closely resembled that of Manhattan's Third Avenue El and its stringers were identical to those found on the Myrtle Avenue El and those....]
Just curious, what's a stringer?
Stringers are those horizontal beams upon which the tracks are laid. Resting on crossbeams which traverse the street they are an excellent way of determining an El's age. For instance, if you look at those stringers on the remaining segment of the old Myrtle Avenue El a block or two south of Broadway, you'l find that their size and rivet patterns are identical to those on the Broadway El. Likewise, if you check the stringers supporting the express track on the Broadway El, you'l find them to be identical to those found on the Flushing/Corona El (and all Dual Contract lines). During my research for my upcoming book "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" I found that there was a lot of conflicting data as to when certain elevated lines were built, so I hit the streets and examined their structural features up close. Then by comparing old photographs with these and other lines (including the long defunct Fifth and Lexington Avenue lines in Brooklyn) I was able to determine their respective ages, and by extension the composition of the neighborhoods through which they passed when they were built.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smit
Anyone know what those things are on the Manhattan-bound platform at said statio? Backlit advertising signs?
No. But it is no longer called Elderts Lane. It is now called 75th Street.
Only on maps. The signage still says Elderts Lane, as do the people who use it, as well as most conductors who work the J line.
Only the former 102nd. St station has had it's old name completely wiped away. Forest Pkwy and Elderts Lane have retained theirs.
I currently work on the J, including those stations. Station signage (based on the black with white lettering signs) is as follows:
Elderts Lane
85 Street- Forest Parkway
104 Street
I too saw those panels at Elderts Lane. I am guessing it might be a prototype windscreen.
If you ever work the 6:18 out of Jamaica Center, you can always go into the 3rd car and say hi to me, as I ride it every day. LOL.
She's a station agent.
Anyone who would appreciate observing the beauty of Union Pacific's E9's is encouraged to go to the stadium area of South Philly (caution:the place is crawling with Republicans). They are out in the open at Pattison and Darien (between 9th and 10th, a short walk from the south end of the Broad St Subway). No. 951 is on the north side of Pattison facing south and #949 is across Pattison facing north with a couple service cars and several business cars with open-end obs North Platte on the end. They were all fully accessible to foamer-photographers, of whom there were about a dozen Friday at 7 PM. The FU Spectrum parking lot has about 20 UP cars parked on panel track behind a high chain-link fence. Open-end obs's Feather Run and Shoshone are in a position where they can be photographed (which I did) through a space in a gate, but when I then wished to videotape them, I was chased away (actually, politely asked to vacate) by Philly cops because that part of the sidewalk is officially in Conventionland and off limits to Democrats (or anyone without Convention credentials).
I noticed a fourth obs when I looked at my video later.
Bob
.
answer...........they were being fitted with new ..@""STYROFOAM"..
Today the R142 train was running but not carrying passengers. We caught them running light northbound at Intervale Ave, with doors opening on the wrong side in order to simulate station stops. It was spooky seeing the doors open on the wrong side! I'll have pictures shortly.
Also today we (Wayne W. Peggy D. and me) tried to catch the southbound Kawasaki R142a set at Hunts Point but missed it, so we followed it, getting off at Grand Central and catching it on its next northbound trip. We rode it back up to Westchester Square where we waited for it to return southbound (to get pictures) and then chased it again. This time we switched to a 5 express at 125th and caught up to the R142a at 34th St. At 14th we got back on the R142a but we were in the first car and they wouldn't let us ride around the loop. But, of course, as the train passed us we saw others doing it so our only fault was in asking permission...
Pictures going up soon!
-Dave
"This time we switched to a 5 express at 125th and caught up to the R142a at 34th St."
Hmm... there's no 34 Street on the Lexington Avenue Line. I had a similar experience today. I was riding out the B/N/R reroutes today and got off an N at 14 Street. When I got to the platform the R142A was leaving. I caught it at Brooklyn Bridge with a 5 Train. Hmm... I think I saw you 3 today! Was Peggy wearing a MTA cap? Were you or Wayne wearing black?
> Hmm... there's no 34 Street on the Lexington Avenue Line.
Yeah thanks.
Wayne was in the black.
-Dave
Yes, I did see you guys. I was in the same car as you guys when you guys were talking about regenative braking. I was the chinese kid in the shorts with a blue T-shirt.
That's the...
running on...
's
sitings.
Shoot! You should have introduced yourself! I would certainly not have minded...
wayne
Actually, I had not clue as to what you guys looked like until Mr. Pirmann mentioned him, you and Peggy. Well, regenative braking... what was I thinking? Normal passengers talking like that?
Actually, I had not clue as to what you guys looked like until Mr. Pirmann mentioned him, you and Peggy.
As has been said before, there is a wealth of information on this site... About this site has pictures of all three, plus a couple of other folks who have made significant contributions to ths site.
For pictures of the rest of us insignificant folks, you can try your luck on the SubTalk Field Trips page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well that picture of me is a little bit out of date - the hair is about six inches shorter (actually it's pretty much gone) and I'm wearing about 15 lbs. more since I gave up nicotiana (5 mos. on Wed.)
wayne
...the hair is about six inches shorter (actually it's pretty
much gone) and I'm wearing about 15 lbs. more...
That's called middle age, Wayne :-) Been there, done that, creative combing helps too. Except now the doc has ordered me to lose about 50 or more of those excess pounds; I had a little big scare with my heart last week so guess I'm going to have to get serious about it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, you've quit smoking? Good for you! My father says he gained maybe ten pounds after he quit for good.
We'll have to make sure we catch an R-142 train come October - preferably on an express run. I wonder if they whine on acceleration the way our LRVs do. I'm beginning to think they may have AC motors..
There is a 33rd St. station, though. Except it's a local stop.
07/29/2000
[Today the R142 train was running but not carrying passengers]
AHAH! So that's why things were messed up. I saw the R-142 going north at Wall St. about 3:04PM, way off schedule. Noticed no passengers in a few cars. Waited at Penn Station to catch it going south. Waited 4:25PM to 5:20PM, NO SHOW!, got disgusted and left. The Bombardier curse ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They appeared to have been running light today. The R142A was out carrying normal passenger loads. Nice train! I will put up a post of my own inpressions of this train.
wayne
they have to test it to make sure what ever problem it was giving, that it doesn't occur again after fixing it
As promised here's a picture of the Bom. R142 with the doors open on the wrong side at Intervale Ave.
I was just thinking-- they should extend the red stripe down the whole length of every car and use the internationally accepted blue/white wheelchair sign to indicate where the wheelchair spaces are. The cars that don't have any red striping look terribly plain. They at least need something along the sides like the double ridges on the R62's/R68's/R46's etc but since it's too late to change the fabrication of the side panels, just a red stripe will do...
Interesting ... no "pantograph springs" between 6305 & 6306 .....
--Mark
Well you won't be able to walk between at that location anyway since those are both cab cars. No need for gates, I guess.
>>> Well you won't be able to walk between at that location anyway since those are both cab cars. No need for gates, I guess. <<<
David;
My understanding is that the pantograph gates are to keep people from being shoved between cars from a platform when the train is in a station. They are too far away to assist anyone walking between cars. How does the fact that both are cab cars have anything to do with that?
Tom
Oh. Well, I'd never heard that. I just assumed they were protection - something to grab on to - in case someone slipped and fell between cars.
You'll see them installed as soon as the first blind person walks into the space thinking its an open door. Remember, R-44/46's did not originally have any "baloney" springs between the cars either and this was the reason they were added.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have heard from several TD's that the Go headache will return next weekend. There will be no "E" service again for 4 weeks. The "R" will be making all local stops in Queens and go to Parsons/Archer- Jamacia Center. The "F" will be running local in Queens to 34th Street. The split service will be back on the "F" line from 34th Street to Coney Island.
The last time this took place, there was plenty of confusion and lots of delays. Hopefully, transit managers learned from past mistakes and will post enough flyers, have platform conductors, especially at Roosevelt Avenue, and provide enough service on the "R" line.
Unfortunately, I am stuck with a trip and one half on Fridays and Saturdays. I then have to deadhead back to 95th on Friday, and Jamacia Center on Saturdays to sign out! Since there are only shuttles after 11pm, I have to take 3 trains, so add at least 1 and a half hours extra to get to the other end. Many train operators and conductors are upset at this poor planning, and there is nothing we can do about it!
At least run full distance trains all night so we do not have to take 3 trains! Many times, there is no connection for up to 20 minutes! Money isn't everything if you are overtired after a long days work, especially when you face angry and confused customers all day! Many of these customers are weekend riders. Signs should be up today so they will be notified long enough in advance- but they are not. So get ready for next weekend- T/O and C/R! The headache is returning!
[The last time this took place, there was plenty of confusion. Hopefully, transit managers will...post enough flyers.... Signs should be put up today....]
Actually, if signs are put up TODAY for next weekend, some people will see the notice but not the date(s), and be under the impression that the change is for today. Then, over the intervening week, the signs will be taken down by those who believe that "if there's no notice about the change, it can't happen."
For a weekend disruption, I'd do the following:
1. Have notices posted (in ALL appropriate languages) the previous Monday morning in ALL stations along each route in question, and (to the degree possible) on buses that feed those stations.
2. Follow up over the week to ensure that any missing tices are replaced ASAP.
3. Place ads in all major daily and ethnic newspapers, also starting Monday morning.
4. Provide VERY detailed transmittal of the disruption to all traffic reporting services.
It's pretty common-sense stuff, really.
One other thing I would do for this particular General Order: Have the conductors NOT announce things like "transfer to the E train with R signs." (Yes, I actually heard that one.) If it's carrying the letter R, then the riding public will see it as an R, so it should be announced as an R.
"post Notices"?
We do post notices and even tape off platforms but customers think if they ignore the info it will go away.
I had the misfortune to work 23/Ely in Queens the last shuttle bus go experience. The platforms were closed and the turnstiles closed and even then we had two full platforms with angry customers! We even taped the street stairs at 23/Ely and still no luck!
At the passageway from Court Square we( Stations) finally put up metal barricades and yes- customers were moving the barricades!
We finally told passing police officers to check the barricades and tell any people crossing them to move(no tickets, just a request to move.)
I was at Penn Station IND Saturday night. All uptown trains were running express and signs were everywhere. I had many asking about the uptown E. When I told them all E were on the express track they said, "I want the E train!"
Many people take down the notices as soon as we put them up!
One day I was watching a supervisor putting up notices. Immediately behind the supervisor was a customer taking down every notice! I followed the customer and put them all back up and by the time I reached the end of the platform--You Guessed it! someone was behind me, taking them down again! The supervisor and myself put them up for a third time!
I have seen platforms with 6-7 lines of tape blocking access and yet they were full of customers waiting for trains that would never stop!
I have gotten off trains and gone back to some of those stations and told the people of the lack of trains and yes! They refused to move! I finally told them- OK! The next train will be 5am Monday morning and even then many just cussed and refused to move.
If you have any ideas short of having police arrest the customers I'll be glad to pass along your comments!
[We do post notices and even tape off platforms but customers think if they ignore the info it will just go away.]
I agree, and I've seen for myself all the customer behaviors you described - and that's my point. If the notices keep coming back, then the disruption must somehow be real. PLUS, there are all the other ways I mentioned of getting "the message" out. (For Penn Station, maybe even ask for announcements and seat drops on LIRR/NJT/Amtrak trains.) The key is that, while the employees work hard to assist the misguided DURING the G.O., the agency itself could do a little more in advance.
----------
Another G.O. horror story: Customer gets past the tape AND the barricades, wanders onto the platform, stands next to a non-moving WORK TRAIN and a crew with jackhammers, and STILL expects the train to show up. (Some folks actually place a great deal of confidence in Transit's ability to run trains THROUGH other trains, or on track that's been removed, etc.)
We do try! At various stations there have been tower annoucements, police presence (routine) and still they wait for non-existent trains!
Face it-- we live in a city of sheep- and a fact of sheep is that they (the four legged kind) are so lacking in intelligence that if you place a sheep with all four legs up in the air, it cannot roll over(like your family dog) but will die in that postion!
I compare many of our customers to sheep, and we are the shepherds.
Seems to me the cost of purchasing some plexiglass to cover the notices would more than pay for itself in the savings of not having to continuously replace the notices. It might take a little longer to put them up, but at least they would stay up.
Why not a clear plastic thing that's permanently mounted to the pillars, slip the post right in, and require a key to unlock the thing covering the opening.
So long as the stuff is still readable after the scratchitti artists get through with the plastic covers, it would work.
What about station announcements?
Nobody pays attention.
You cannot hear most station announcements anyway as the PA systems suck. Or they wait until there are 3 trains entering the station to make an announcement. BTW, how come the "testing 1,2,3..." annoucements can always be heard clearly?
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably because they take the handkerchief off when they conduct these tests !
JDL
I have observed (though not in a while) somebody on the platform with a walkie-talkie, telling someone else when to make the "testing" announcement and then reporting back on its clarity and loudness.
David
The PA system in the Station is one of two types: The first type is called the SPAS- Station Public Address System- this is used by Station Agents from the booth or by the RTO (Tower dedicated announcer or Tower Operator.) This system is being replaced by the more advanced PACIS which stands for Public Address Customer Information System. The stations having the new kind have the LED sign boards which usually display time and date and sometimes you see othert messages such as G.O. info.
When these signs display a message the message is preceeded by a bong tone.
While Station Agents(SAs) in the booth have use of these systems we are the lowest priority users. We also have 4 zones for the system:
Entire station (Our line only), Mezzanine only, Northbound only, SOuthbound Only.
If we depress the handset and see a red indicator light, the system is busy and we have to wait. At some future point, the PACIS will show next train arrival time when it is interfaced with signals.
Generally stations with PA speakers in the light fixtures do better.
NYCT does have plans on adding every station to the new system but it takes time and money.
I too have found out that many times, towers do not tell the customer (internal[NYCT employees] or external[general public]) what is happening. This happened on the G at court Square--twice! Both times,.I happened to have my own scanner and assisted the publ;ic via info I got from COntrol via my own scanner.
I do regret that you are having diffculty using the system.
Can't the MTA modify the tickers so they can announce the G.O. A lot of people I see look at them to see when a train is coming.
The newer ones (the multi-colored LED signs that display the date & time) sometimes do.
Why are some of their clocks not syncronous? Of two hanging at the 52nd Street (Lincoln Av) station, one is 2 minutes behind of what my watch says, and the other is 8 minutes ahead! (or vice versa.)
I love travelling back in time on the Queens Blvd. line. For a while, if you travelled in the Queens Bound direction, the ones bet. Queens Plaza and Roosevelt all were about 5 minutes apart from the previous, in descending order. If the train went fast enough it appeared as if one was going a few minutes into the past.
Yes, they can do that. They should make it a little bigger so more text can be on it. It's a good idea. I mean, it's harder to tear off a ticker than a little poster.
That's the...
running on...
's
opinion.
What about a readily visible, yet poorly accessible TV screen a la PATHVISION.
To curb scratchitti, the unit can be enclosed in a metal case that is electrified. I was thinking also to cover the screen with a noxious gel that burns the skin, but that can't be just switched off when maintenance is necessary.
[cover the screen with a noxious gel that burns the skin,...]
Lawyers would love that!!
One of the PM E crews who normally does 4 round trips to WTC gets a good screwing when the GO starts on Friday nites: that last round trip to/from WTC becomes a 1/2 trip to 95 St. against the wall. Then they have to D/H back to Parsons/Archer to sign out. Lots of fun getting back since they have to take the R shuttle from 95, then the N to Whitehall to pick up the midnite E service which starts there. When supplement schedules are made up, the job you picked is unilaterally thrown out the window. Complain to the union? Ha Ha! They say: "Well, we have to cooperate with management". All well and good, but many times supplement schedules radically change some jobs to the point that one would never have picked that kind of job in the first place. On Sat/Sun, a 3 express tripper E to/from WTC becomes 2 round trips from Parsons/Archer to 95 St. against the wall!
Perhaps that's why I never take the subway on the weekend. It's a lousy time for railfanning with all the reduced service, add that to the N20/21 Sat/sun schedule and it's just a lousy time to.
But on weekends alot of people visit the city, but the MTA thinks people sleep on weekends.
Actually, my favorite part of railfaning on the weekends is just that. Sometimes the G.O.s require trains to take routes not normally used and it gets trains to use connections not normally used which allows us to explore.
That's the...
running on...
's
thoughts.
Unfortunately, NYC never sleeps! The work has to be done and weekends/overnight has the least impact. Can you imagine the chaos if this work were done during rush hours! We'd need the national guard in riot gear to control the riots!
If your house were almost 100 years old and you did not do any repairs for 20 years, it too would need work! Streets get repaved, interstate highways get repaired but with not as much ill will as we get We do not close the subway.
When we have the GOs be thankful we have the capability for all those reroutes. Let's imagine that the 60th street connection were not built! Then we'd have no service on the IND from Queens to Manhattan and the IRT 7 and BMT N could not handle all the load!(even with rushg hour service all weekend!)
The delays could be worse, much worse!
I assure you NYCT does care and we try to keep disruptions to a minimum.
Very well put!!!
Thanks. I have a PHD in Transit!
Past
Having
Doubts
that I enjoy working for Transit!
It's a lousy time for railfanning with all the reduced service
I dunno about that. Last week, I was able to ride a "C" train of R-32s express under 8th Ave to 145th Street because of a GO. I didn't have to wait an hour for an "A" train of R-38s stuffed between 8 trains of R-44s.
I'll usually look at the scheduled G.O. list on the MTA's web site and plan my railfanning accordingly.
--Mark
I guess G.O.'s can be fun, it depends what it is. But I hate the ones that have all trains running local.
However the two G.O.'s that do interest me is the N running on the B line from Manhattan to Dekalb(over the MB), and also the upcoming shuttle from Broadway to Queensbridge. Will they be using Slant R40 on that?
What do you mean by upcoming? There is already a shuttle service to and from 57 and 7 to 21 Street - Queensbridge. It was there this week. The B and N Trains were running to 57 and 6. The assignment was R68As.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
It was there this week, the week before, not a weekend goes by without that BS. BTW, I have a pic of your car running on the BS, and if you want I will e-mail it to you when it gets developed and scanned.
Thanks! That'd be greatly appretiated. When was it running? I was there this weekend and it wasn't there. You can send it to R68A_5200@hotmail.com. Thanks again.
That's the...
running on...
's
request.
It was not running this weekend, but a few months ago. I'll send it in less than a week (maybe tonight, I just got some photos e-mailed from the lab and haven't looked through them yet).
I meant the weekday shuttle from 34th to 21-Queensbridge which according to the MTA website starts next week.
All right! Last time it was R-32s. I hope its the same again!
At the 2 Avenue Station on the F Line is a R68A. The R68A is parked on the Coney Island Bound Platform. There is no crew on or for the train. The train is closed up and locked. The first 3 cars of the train have their lights on. The last 5 don't. The emergency is, the northbound operating motor car has 1 door keyed open. No one is there attending the train. The car number with the open door is 5024. There is already some fresh magic marker drawing on the outside of the body. Somebody rescue it!!!
That's the...
running on...
emergency.
If you could walk through any sretch of tunnels
in the entire NYC subway system what would it be?
For me it would be Franklyn ave.,to see where that wreck took place.
I would want to walk the original right of way at Grand Central.
Either Homeball alley, or else the stretch from Pacific St to the Manny B...
[If you could walk through any sretch of tunnels in the entire NYC subway system what would it be?
For me it would be Franklyn ave.,to see where that wreck took place.]
I'll take any river crossing.
07/29/2000
[For me it would be Franklyn ave.,to see where that wreck took place]
Oh you must mean the FRANKLIN Ave. shuttle tunnel at Prospect Park!
Bill "Newkirk"
Lexington Ave, from City Hall to the Grand Central Shuttle, that's the one line I looked out the window very carefully to see all he abndoned stations and stuff.
Well it's not the Subway, but I'd like to walk through the old LIRR Atlantic Ave. tunnel, "rediscovered" by Bob Diamond.
LIRR History Website
That you can do... Bob runs tours on occasion. I've been down there (foolish thing for me to do, given my arthritis, but it was worth it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The South Ferry Loops
The Lexington BB-City Hall loop
The IRT Tunnel into 149th GC
[ Franklyn ave.,to see where that wreck took place ]
I rode through that tunnel many times before the TA installed the crossover. Nothing at all remarkable about it except for the very sharp curve.
But I wouldn't want to walk it. Just staring north from the local track at Prospect Park listening to trains screeching their way through was creepy enough for me.
I finally git my first ride on the R142A today from 125th St to Pelham Baya and contrary to the NY TImes article, I did not foam at the mouth.
I was wondering what that yellow indicator light, situated in the frame where the passenger doors come together when closed, is for.
Interesting situation: I was in the first car (naturally) and one of the TA people assigned to monitor performance sat down in the "wheelchair" seat on the right (near door R1). He decided to lean back towards the front of the train and his head came to rest comfortably - right on the Emergency call button!! We know he did because one of the othe TA people riding in the cab with the T/O came out to see who pushed the button.
You think that's bad? For once today, I saw a wheelchair passenger on the R142A. The passenger got on and had to hold on to a pole. Yes, good ol' pole. The passenger kept making circles when the train was moving. He was also blocking the doors... but what was he to do? If he didn't hold on, he would have rolled all around the car. If he did he would have blocked the doors. The man was in one of those wheelchair designed cars. My question is... why on earth is there nothing to secure a wheelchair passenger? On buses, they have belts. On the trains they have nothing!
That's the...
running on...
's
speech for wheelchair passenger's rights.
The wheelchair passenger (aka customer) was an IDIOT. Every wheelchair, including electric ones, have what is commonly known as wheel brakes! These lock against the wheels and keep the chair from rolling.
the yellow lights are there to grab atention that the doors are closing to the deaf. (common sense if you think about it. most people can here door chimes. the deaf can't and need some kind of awareness)
They are lit when the door is open, flash as they close and are off when the doors are closed. I don't know what state they are in as the doors are opening.
The MTA BBS, as mentioned on the Files from the MTA BBS page, is terminating in an intercept message saying it's been disconnected. What's up with that?
--Mike
I'm not sure who ran that thing or how officially sanctioned it was. I suspect it might have been an internal but unofficial thing all along that just happened to have some cool stuff. I hadn't called it up in a couple years. It could have been gone a long time..
-Dave
It was taken down three months ago.
-Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Pity. Thanks.
That's all I have to say. Here is a link.
if the problems with the r142's are not resolved, i have learned, from several knowledgeable sources at my mental health facility, that the r142's will be used primarily in snow emergencies... during those times they will run in non revenue service to keep the third rail clear of snow and ice... they will also be used on occasional fan trips with no passengers, primarily to give run by photo opportunities for calendar makers... otherwise they will be kept in the yard and dusted off once or twice a week...
Well it's nice to see they have a contingency plan to use the R142's already built. They'll provide a service keeping the third rails clean for the piles of reddish rust that the redbirds will become any day now.
Usually you are not funny. Yet on other times, like tonight, you just try too hard.
To paraphrase Woody Allen, "Those that can't do, teach. Those that can't teach, tutor".
If Heypaul annoys you that much, just ignore his postings and be done with it, but don't drag the rest of us down into your little pissing contest. There's nothing more pathetic than somebody constantly bitching about a personal annoyance they deliberately choose to inflict upon themselves.
-- David
Boston, MA
David! Thanks for the advice. Perhaps you should follow it yourself and if my posts annoy you so much, you should ignore them too. In the mean time, the next time I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.......
As long as positive comments about haypaul's 'humor' are tollerated, I think that equal time should be afforded to those who don't appreciate it.
[As long as positive comments about haypaul's 'humor' are tollerated, I think that equal time should be afforded to those who don't appreciate it.]
Heypaul's comments usually are amusing. If they bother you, do as I did with Salaamallah and killfile him.
I guess it's all a matter of taste.
My wife has been complaining that I piss, moan, and grumble about various irritations and outrages (like use getting stuck with defective trains so some politicians could hand some jobs to some people in Plattsburg) instead of approaching them with a sense of humor. Train Dude sounds like a fellow grouch, but my wife would probably prefer heypaul's posts to his (or mine).
"Train Dude sounds like a fellow grouch,"
Who, me? Actually i have a very furtile sense of humor. I'm also a generally pleasant person who has strong feelings on several subjects. heypaul is one. While it goes beyond this one aspect, I just don't feel that heypaul is funny. Yes I could ignore him but he & his greek chorus of followers seem to permeate several threads which sound serious by their title but just turn out to be more heypaul timewasters. I also feel that my postings are as valid as those that extol heypaul's comedy. Besides, if I don't tell him he stinks, he'll think he's funny. Who knows he may even give up a promising career in education to become a stand-up comic.
>>Who knows he may even give up a promising career in education to >>become a stand-up comic.
Now that line was funny....
>>> I could ignore him but he & his greek chorus of followers seem to permeate several threads which sound serious by their title but just turn out to be more heypaul timewasters <<<
Dude;
You could use the strategy that I use. When I am in a hurry, I look to see who has started a new thread and disregard those I doubt will be serious, and when I have some time to waste, like today, I will glance at the threads I ignored a few days earlier.
Tom
Thanks, Tom, for the advice. I actually try to ignore his threads but sometimes my grouchy side takes over. Unfortunately, my intollerance of mr.hey overwhelms me. I'll try to keep thing from outside of subtalk from creeping in again - but I make no promises
Perhaps you're not a grouch. These days, until we get some real expansion of the subway, I'm definately a grouch.
"Train Dude sounds like a fellow grouch,"
"Who, me? Actually i have a very furtile sense of humor. I'm also a generally pleasant person who has strong feelings on several subjects. heypaul is one." ... "I just don't feel that heypaul is funny."
Yes, but it hasn't come thru on any of your post for a very long time.
There are a group of posters, like yourself that I have learned a lot from over the past couple of year ... so thanks for that, but I get the since that heypaul is trying to keep us from getting too serious/fanatic about this subfan thing. I agree with him, i.e. it should be enjoyable & fun ... at least it's a hobby to me. The story I like to tell: my boss once said he would be willing to help me become a bus driver for QSC, as he knows that I enjoy driving trolleys ... I replied, NO that would be a JOB and not fun anymore. I also know of a few friends who are too busy studing & recording things when we do a Field Trip to enjoy the ride ... well to each their own.
Maybe you need to read heypaul's post more carefully, as there is usually some detail hidden between the lines ... case in point, he did actually get a call from Transit Transit (opps he proablly didn't want me to say that)
"Yes I could ignore him but he & his greek chorus of followers seem to
permeate several threads which sound serious by their title but just turn out to be more heypaul timewasters."
Those of us "followers", friends & just readers do actually learn stuff from his posts too, but some times it's just the lighter side of SubTalk !
So let me just say this to my colleague from the Bronx (no I'm not going to give you a Bronx Cheer) ... light up a little ... I think you'll find that you'll look forward to signing on a little bit more. I for one have to watch my Ps & Qs a bit more on the BusTalk side, but sometime I have a little fun with them too, e.g. "Runs Like a Deer with Orange Stripes".
Sounds like a heypaul kind of post, but I was informing the Busfans about a couple of new coaches at our depot.
Mr t__:^)
So basically, if you could ban all responses to your own messages, you would.
If you don't want people to give their opinions in response to your messages, how come you post your opinions in response to other's messages without their permission?
Huh? Talking to yourself?
Om the contrary, piglet. If people are permitted to post affirmatively about haypaul's 'comedy, then I should be permitted to post about how I perceive it.
Right, but people can post about your posts, you just don't have to listen to them.
Piggy, I don't want to belabor the point. My response was addressed to David and not the board at large. I did not like him referring to my comments as he did and responded in kind. Period!! Anyone else who wants to disagree - I'm fair game. However, a little introspection is due. In the past, you have not been the most tollerant kid in the daycamp when people disagree with you. I even let one of your comments about me pass without response. As for the subject of my original post ........ I find the forced humor and the ping-pong banter that usually follows one of the hoo-paul posts, annoying and a waste of time. However, I will or will not comment on them as I see fit - just like any other posting here (until Dave votes me off the island).
You can continue to criticize heypaul, especially when the R-142s are insulted for no reason. It's not funny.
Thanks Piggy!!! However, my issues with mr. hey is his pointless, humorless attempt at comedy. I do not care if he criticizes R-142s or R-68s or Flexible busses. He's entitled to his opinions as is everyone else on this board. The fact is that there are some very significant issues revolving around the R-142s that should have been raised and were not. Mr. hey only detracts from serious discussion. If mr. hey makes some serious points about rail mass transit, I'll respond in kind. If he continues to do his "poor mans Henny Youngman", I reserve the right to be a harsh critic.
>>> If he continues to do his "poor mans Henny Youngman", I reserve the right to be a harsh critic. <<<
Did I miss the post where Heypaul said "Take my R-9 cab ..........PLEASE!" :-)
Tom
you have misquoted me...
i never said: "take my r9 cab.... please!"
nor did i say: " take my critics.... please!"
i have never been a fan of henny youngman
Hey Train Dud, what's with always picking on heypaul. You can't find something more important to do with your pathetic little existance up in the Bronx?
Do us all a favor and get a life with ya?
Doug aka BMTman
"You can't find something more important to do with your pathetic little existance up in the Bronx?"
Now douggie, was that nice? Let's see, my pathetic life in the Bronx? Gee, I get paid an awful lot of money for that pathetic little existance. Imagine, I'm doing what you just foam at the mouth to do - for free. How sad is that? What important things do you do with your life douggie?
Now I'm sure that haypaulie is a big enough man that he doesn't need a man like you to defend him. Why not wait until I bang on your cage before you wake up.
This entire conversation is so ridiculous. Who cares if people find heypaul funy or not funny. I don't think it is really something we have to discuss on thos board if you don't like him start a yahoo club or some type of forum like that. We don't need to deal with this type of crap on this board.
-Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
and yes, before anyone pounces on it, I realized I didn't spell funny and this correctly the first time I used it in my previous post.
-Harry
http://www.zdeno.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Careful Doug, your part of the Geek Chorus and your speaking out...
I find the whole thing very funny. Both Heypaul for his posts and Train Dude and they way Train Dude gets such kneejerk reaction from the Geek Chorus and others.
All this for the price of admission to the net...
Just remember where Heypaul works (you need a sense of humor) and
Just remember where Train Dude works (they make you check your sense of humor at the door).
Well I can remmber one time THEY had a sense of humor; "not saying thank you to save time in the station".
i have refrained from responding to train dude's comments about my sense of humor, my choice of work, my political interests, and all his other comments because the man reveals himself with his own words...
Good choice Paul!!!
Heypaul is a smart man
Imagine having to work for someone like Traindude. Now you see the real reason why so many transit workers look miserable!
You times Traindude by a thousand and there is nothing to smile about!
Let's lay off the personal attacks, OK? I don't know of anybody on this Board who works for Train Dude. Nobody here actually knows what he's like as a supervisor, so nobody should be talking about his supervising skills.
David
[Let's lay off the personal attacks, OK?]
I agree 100% The Train Dude has been a very giving person in his replys to serious question over the past couple of years. I certainly would miss that part of my educational experience here, it just seems that he needs a real big hug recently.
Mr t__:^)
I wasn't speaking of his supervisory skills, I was refering to his personality skills, which is ZERO!
Then what I said before still stands. We don't know how Train Dude behaves at work. All we know of him (or any other SubTalker, for that matter, unless we happen to know the person) is what we see before us.
In any case, please (and I'm addressing this to everybody, not anyone in particular) let's lay off the personal attacks. That's not what we're supposed to be about here.
David
I was going to let your remark about my professional abilities pass but decided, against my better judgement, not to. My criticisms here on Subtalk have been based on my own personal observations. Whether you agree with them or not, they were my opinions (primarily about two subtalkers and the merits of their posts). I never purported to speak for others. However, with regards to your remarks, I'm going to give you your big chance. You obviously do not work for me yet feel qualified to comment on my abilities as a manager. Clearly, then, you know people who do work for me. People who have told you what it's like to work with me and for me. I'll make it easy for you. Name just one. Name one person that has personally told you anything about my professional skills. It's time to back up what you say with one name or show everyone what a mallicious pussilanimous weasel you really are.
It's really that easy Mr. Mabstoa - one name! Time to put up or shut up.
I never commented on your professional abilities just your personality abilities which amount to a doorknob.
When your not posting something stupid against minorities, political correctness or immigrants your posts are generally very informative.
Read my posts prior to this one and you will see that, I never commented on your ability's at work, just your annoying Archie Bunker/ Bob Grant mentality that I pick up here on the post.
THAT'S WHOA, And the gospel according to Mr. MaBSTOA. Just recently I've had a minor run in with Mr. Train Dude and his post was to me crap just because he is a MTA Employee, which doesn't amount to crap. Not downing the job because I love the MTA.
I've had quite a few words with you, Mr. MaBSTOA, but after meeting you in person, I know to take you comments in stride!
Trevor Logan
All this wisdom from a man who outs himself on the internet and then blames someone for reading it!!!! Yeah - we can take you seriously..
Excuse me, I blame someone for doing what they did out of pure meaness. And like i've stated many of time, if I was sooooo damn scared of people finding me out, I've wouldn't have made the site in the first place. DUH! My issue with that was it was done on purpose out of hatred in which it only had a positive effect with much support.
Secondly, I couldn't give 2 craps whether you take me seriously or not, I'm a adult and have no need for a popularity contest.
Have a safe and blessed day!
Trevor Logan
Also don't you dare bring Alternative Lifestyle into this, this is a transit issue. Just like you claim your such a great manager/TA worker. I'm just as good a Transit Worker, DIDN'T KNOW THAT NOW DID YOU!
Trevor Logan
No, Trevor, I had no idea that you were a transit worker. I thought you might be a high school or college student. My mistake - i appologize. However it seems like a easy mistake to make.
By the way, dealing with alternate lifestyles and sexual harassment in the workplace is a legitimate transit issue (at least for those who have to deal with it).
Ok Cool, Bygones! Fresh Start.......
Hi. I'm Trevor Logan!
TLJ
P
There, I p'd on all of you. I win!
-Hank :)
All right, settle down Beavis...
Enough of this back and forth bickering-- you two guys (Train Dude and Mr. Mabstoa) can argue in Email...
-Dave
"Imagine having to work for someone like Traindude. Now you see the real reason why so many transit workers look miserable!
I suggest you read this quote from your posting. Did you or did you not write it? This is a direct attack against my managerial style. If I make my employees miserable then I'm not a competant manager. I say you are a lying weasel. Now it's very simple, Mr. Mabstoa. Back up your words. Post the name of an employee who will back up your claim. I'll make it easier - how about an organizer from the TWU or a shop chairman? The ball is on your side of the net for the last time. Back up your words, retract the statement or show everyone what kind of 'man' you really are.
As for my views on political correctness, immigration, minorities or even alternate lifestyles; granted they may be conservative. Yours obviously are not. That does not make my values any less valid than yours. The difference is those on your side (the left-leaners) only believe in free speech that they agree with.
Ihave NO opinion, because I have no information, on your manegrial style. However >>those on your side (the left-leaners) only believe in free speech that they
agree with. << I defend to the death your right to your positions wrong headed as I might consider some of them to be. That said, I have always appreciated your willingness to share technical info and data with the rest of us. NOW let's talk transit and cut the ad hominem crap, everybody!!!
Troy Maclure, you may remember him from other transit locations like Pitkin Av. and Mother Clara Hale.
I never worked at Pitkin Ave and Mother Clair Hale, I have no idea.
Okay, in fairness, i asked you to name one and presumably, you did. i don't remember any troy maclure but I guess you win.
He married Selma Bouvier Terwilliger Bouvier, remember?
Is he serious?? Is there really someone named Troy Maclure? Or has he been watching too much "Simpsons"?
I thought Sideshow Bob was the one who married Selma... Troy Maclure was the TV host...
Troy McLure was Selma's second husband. The Terwilliger in Selma Bouvier Terwilliger Bouvier is for Robert Terwilliger (R-Springfield) aka Sideshow Bob.
Guess I must've missed this one...
Yes. Troy McClure was a 2 bit actor who did everything. You might remember him from such episodes as the one where he married Selma, the one where he starred in a sex-education film for Bart's class, and as the host of the Simpsons 138th episode spectacular.
The Simpsons haven't been the same since he and Lionel Hutz had to be discontinued, for obvious reasons.
He also hosted Simpsons spin-off special.
Oh yeah. I believe "Chief Wiggum, PI" had potential.
Especially when Ralph put that G on the door after Chief Wiggum PI.
Dude, you don't watch much TV, do you? Troy McClure was a character on the Simpsons, voiced by the late Phil Hartman. In the context of the statement by Mr Mabstoa, I am sure that this is who he is referring to.
-Hank :)
Nope, I don't watch the Simpson's. I guess Mr. Mabstoa is one up on me. On the other hand, he then has not met his burden of proof. I guess he is still a class A weasel.
[Now I'm sure that haypaulie is a big enough man that he doesn't need a man like you to defend him. Why not wait until I bang on your cage before you wake up.]
You don't have to bang on the cage -- just call out to me since you're in the cage next door. :-)
[Now douggie, was that nice? Let's see, my pathetic life in the Bronx? Gee, I get paid an awful lot of money for that pathetic little existance. Imagine, I'm doing what you just foam at the mouth to do - for free. How sad is that? What important things do you do with your life douggie? ]
If you spend all day posting here at SubTalk, then I suspect that you are grossly overpaid....
'nough said.
Doug aka BMTman
Those who can't teach, teach teaching or PE.
The original quote, I believe was, "Those that can't do, teach and those that can't teach, teach gym".
Of course in this day this is not true as there are many social issues that keep teachers from teaching. I taught for a very short time 20 some odd years ago. My daughter is in her first year of teaching. Things have not gotten better in that time. yet there is some contemplation of returning - perhaps to Transit tech,
not to mention those 142's would make
for some nifty fine bar coasters... or
the futuristic place to put your drink
down on..
I know I do.
1SF9
Today was another minor milestone for me - It is not every day that I get to ride a new fleet for the first time. Dave P., Peggy D., and I rode the Kawasaki R142A twice today - the first time from Grand Central to Westchester Square and then again from 14th Street-Union Square to Brooklyn Bridge.
My own observations on this train:
* The train rode smoothly with good acceleration and braking. I liked the regenerative brake sounds, which reminded me of the Washington DC Metro's Rohr cars. The Air Conditioning was good too.
* We didn't notice any problems with the automatic signs or annunciators.
* I liked the interior color scheme, but I feel the light grey walls will be an inviting target for vandals.
* At first I didn't care for the doors at the car ends, but they eventually grew on me. They kind of look like elongated eyes. A plus is being able to see from one car to another. And you can actually walk from car to car; you just have to remember how to open these doors - with both hands.
* They aren't particularly noisy on curves - the #6 line in the Bronx is loaded with them. They sound like R44/R46 cars when they turn.
* I like the black floor (heck, I like ANY black floor!)
* Do you think they could put in a switch to reverse the polarity on the LED end signs so they could glow green for the Lexington service?
I bet they could - they were just too lazy to do so! They did it INSIDE the car - why not outside?
* All in all - I give it a B Plus. Kind of bland, but nice.
wayne
07/30/2000
I noticed this on two occasions when riding the #6 to 125th St before returning downtown. The headlights of another #6 train right behind ours at 125th St. Coincidence? Is the following #6 catching up to us?
Bill "Newkirk"
Just like when the R44's started running on the F and a slant was always right on its' tail!
While traveling with some friends in Manhattan, I went down into the subway to catch the F at Second Avenue and Houston Street. We got down to the platform and as we were waiting for the F, one of my friends asked me what train used to run on the express tracks at that station. I had never thought twice about it as many times as I've been down to that station. I couldn't answer him, but I did tell him that that the south end of the station was sealed off to prevent homeless people from wandering back there and that the tracks were now being used to relay trains back uptown. He seemed satisfied with that and went on to talk about something else.
But alas, it kept bugging the hell out of me. I recently asked someone else about what used to stop there and he said that he thought at one time the B stopped there. I doubt that, because in my long history of riding the subways, I don't remember the B ever stopping at Second Avenue. It always came into Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge.
So now I turn to you, good friends. What line used to stop at Second Avenue, and where did it go south of that station? With the increased ridership of the subways, is it possible that they might reopen it again and run a line though it?
Sly
The tracks end several hundred feet east of the platform; if you look at the IND section of this site there are comments about the proposed 'Second System' which would have extended those tracks. As terminal tracks, they were used at various times for D, F, and since the Chrystie St. connection various reroutes and off hour short routes--see the excellent history of the IND here for more
Well, the 2 Avenue Station on the F Line can be used for many things. Currently it is used between Midnight and 6:30 AM for Queensbridge Shuttle Service. The shuttle runs from 21 Street - Queensbridge via 6th Avenue Local to 2 Avenue. During G.O.s the 2 tracks are used for returning trains.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
Did the express tracks from Bway lafayette continue through to 2nd Ave before the chrystie construction?
Did the express tracks from Bway lafayette continue through to 2nd Ave before the chrystie construction?
Prior to the Chrystie Street Construction the express tracks did run all the way from West 4 Street to Second Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't remember the B ever stopping at Second Avenue. It always came into Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge.
After the K 6 Av-Bway Bkyln Lcl was discontinued on August 27,1976 the B began running two services during the rush hours;one to 168 Street and the other to 57 Street. Four B trains left 57 St-6 Av on weekday mornings from 803am to 840am and made all stops to 2 Avenue after which they laid up there until the evening rush. During the pm rush they left Seocond Av from 346pm to 431pm and made the first stop for passengers at Bway-Lafayette St and then all stops to 57 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
** . . . the K 6 Av-Bway Bkyln[sic] Lcl was discontinued on August 27,1976 . . . **
Now, is it my imagination, or was it on that same day that the EE was also discontinued and its Continental Avenue-to-Whitehall Street route absorbed by the N?
WB: That is correct. Both the EE and the K were discontinued on Friday,August 27,1976. Starting on Monday,August 30,1976 the N took over the Forest Hills service while the B assumed the rush hour service to 57 St as well as 168 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Starting on Monday,August 30,1976 the N took over the Forest Hills service while the B assumed the rush hour service to 57 St as well as 168 St.
On that very same day, at 10:43pm, I began my third year of life.
And I was in the middle of pre-season drills with the UConn Marching Band.:-)
And I, a graduate assistant, was teaching my first class of college freshmen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was 6 !
I occasionally bike out to Garden City from Flushing. There's a very unusual LIRR underpass on the main line where Denton Avenue changes its name to Tanners Pond Road. The road narrows severely right at the overpass and I don't see any yellow warning lights. Have there been a lot of accidents at this site, and is there any movement to widen the road and the overpass at this point? Looks like this is an original overpass from a grade elim project.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I use that one-lane underpass just about every day and I have personally seen three accidents occur at that spot.
For as long as I can remember, I've been fascinated by this underpass. It seems so out of place - something that would fit in very rural America rather than New Hyde park. I have recently taken a few photos of it to model it for my O gauge subway 4 track main line.
Pictures Kevin! We need pictures! Get me a rewrite, stop the presses, copy boy, copy boy!
>>>Pictures Kevin! We need pictures! <<<
Bob Andersen is the guy to see, since
www.forgotten-ny.com
restricts itself to the 5 burros.
[www.forgotten-ny.com restricts itself to the 5 burros.]
How fortunate. www.nycsubway.org has a few more than 5 asses.
I know I'm not one of them, I'm just a damn swine.
I suspect none of us would admit it.
Besides, even if Kevin did go out of the five boroughs the overpass is still there and he restricts the site to forgotten things.
>>>>Besides, even if Kevin did go out of the five boroughs<<
Hey, I do leave the Five Donkeys now and then. I worked at Publishers Clearing House in Nassau County for seven years. Then they got wise and fired me, the bastids. Don't think it coulda been those three-hour lunches taking the train back to Manhattan and taking pictures, could it*?
www.forgotten-ny.com
*I only did that once.
As all subtalkers and subway users know, trackwork has been continually interrupting weekend service on the N, 7, E, F and R lines for years now. Many weekends, either the N or 7 isn't running between Queensboro and Manhattan (don't know this weekend's status).
Question, perhaps a naive one: is there, somewhere down the line, going to be a time when this maintenance, or whatever they're doing, is completed and service will no longer be regularly interrupted? Or, is ongoing trackwork just going to be a fact of life from here on in, given the system's great age (90 years, in some affected spots)
ww.forgotten-ny.com
Well, I suppose I can give the company line. There is lots of service to/from Queens since there aren't as many routes as there should be. The plant get pounded and must be renovated. Plus a lot of the Queens IND interruptions have to do with the cut in with the extension from 21/Queensbridge. Much more work remains. The diamond crossover between D2 & D4 tracks leaving Queens Plaza has to be torn up and replaced and electrical work and new signals have to be placed into service between 36th St. and Queens Plaza. Queensboro Plaza Master Tower will eventually control this entire area. So it's not going to end anytime soon. Great for railfans, but tough on people who have to get from point A to point B on the weekends. And, in my self serving way, the jobs that the motormen & conductors pick mean nothing. The TA will supplement schedule them to death!
a family sad story will bring me to atlanta next month ...
i will however have plenty of time to shoot the MARTA system with my 35mm camera
The question is have any of you out there been hasseled about taking pictures of MARTA trains when you were last there ?
do they have a ANTI still photography policy there too ?
If I were you, I'd write, call or even E-mail MARTA and get the info from them. Otherwise you are likely to end up in jail there saying "Traindude" said it was okay to take pictures.
I did e mail them prior to posting
my understanding is if you dont get out of hand or in the way they leave you alone
my reason for posting is because
i wanted to talk to others who have done it ..........recently.....
Two years ago, I videotaped about 45 minutes worth of MARTA train rides out the front window and in a few stations, including all over 5 Points. No one said a single word to me about it.
I do not think i will have any problems either !
stil havent heard from the marta official website i e mailed last week ! ( with that same questions )
at least they are not like those gestapo los angeles sheriffs at the 7th & metro rail center harrassing only black & latino photographers !
( thank you )
Is this possible? Where do the motors go?
This is from the Adtranz web site
I don't know where the motors go but those things are f'in cool looking. They're from the city of Strasbourg, France. I have a bunch of other pictures from alt.binaries.pictures.rail of them...
-Dave
That exact picture has been used on promo postcards for the Houston's "Metro" (actually an LRT opening in 2004). I have several of them. They definitely are. Wouldn't it be cool if Houston went with those? Here in Sea-town SoundTransit consistently shows us Siemens SD-600s in it's promos for the SeaTac Airport - Downtown - University District LRT. The Tacoma one is using 2.46m Skoda LRVs from Prague, same as Portland's Central City Streetcar.
So just wait we might see those in the US.
And hopefully we will see the SD600 (or660s) in Seattle in about 6 years and not some crappy LRV like what San Jose uses
I am thinking about changing my handle to reflect some piece of rail equipment...as opposed to "Light Rail Rules!". But my question would be, since annoyance is still a concern to me.... is their anything annoying about "Light Rail Rules!" that would be lost in the changing to another handle? Should I just stick with this one? I pose this question to everyone but especially heypaul, who knows more about getting on stiffs like Train Dude's nerves that anyone else.
I personally don't find anything annoying about your handle. It certainly applies here in Denver. Light rail has been a big hit (maybe grand slam is a better term), even more so since the Southwest Corridor opened.
I am thinking about changing my handle to reflect some piece of rail equipment...as opposed to "Light Rail Rules!". But my question would be, since annoyance is still a concern to me.... is their anything annoying about "Light Rail Rules!" that would be lost in the changing to another handle? Should I just stick with this one? I pose this question to everyone but especially heypaul, who knows more about getting on stiffs like Train Dude's nerves that anyone else. That and Salaam being the overall cool guy on Subtalk i'd like your opinion too.
I am sorry sir I would not like to say if you should keep the handle you are using now or not..
it is your choice ! ( thankyou )
hey there... i have been on subtalk for about 1 year... during the time, i've tried a few handles ranging from the model number of a mack bus to the sounds that the air brakes made on the old subway cars... i settled on heypaul, because it was close to my name paul, and also represented what my brother used to scream at me when he was trying to get my attention, when i had the misfortune to work for him... i like the handle
i frequently state that one of my goals is to irritate people, but that is sort of a joke... if i felt that my presence was a total irritation to most people on the board, i hope i would split the scene... i try to be myself and to let loose with my screwy sense of humor, as much to amuse myself, as to amuse other people... it has come as a pleasant surprise, that some people get a kick out of some of the things i post... it makes me feel welcome here...
as for train dude... he is who he is... i try to carry myself in a way that does not react to what he is all about...
so what's my point?... you asked about changing your handle... pick one that you feel comfortable with... above all, have fun if you like that at subtalk... find out things that you are interested in... try not to engage in crap flinging contests, unless this makes you feel good or smell better than you normally do...
forgive my speech... sometimes i like to run my mouth... paul
"as for train dude... he is who he is... i try to carry myself in a way that does not react to what he is all about..."
You know very well where I am coming from as it was you who fired the first antagonistic shots. (need I post the documents, paulie?)
As for changing your name, Just remember, "a rose by any other name........" The same applies to skunkweed.
I will have no more to say about you, your ethics or your amaturish sense of humor on this board.
Normally your jokes are long and unfunny, but the last one on the R142's was a little funny, especially the part on taking them out for calender pictures.
I picked my handle Mr Mabstoa because thats who I work for and I love the history associated with buses and my real love, trolleys.
Trust me. Don't ever get any LRV's or rapid transit equipment from Adtrash, excuse me, Adtranz. The Norristown LRV's and the M-4's are really garbage. You guys in New York were smart to get Kawasakis and Bombardiers.
aaah forget it all. SIEMENS! they RULE! (and of course, do'nt forget they built the first low-floors in the U.S. too! SD600s all the way!
The AdTranz web site boasts how the people movers at Hartsfield Airport have a 99% availibily rate. As a frequent user of these cool trains, I must agree. Oh wait, those trains were built by WESTINGHOUSE and Adtranz bought Westinghouse, I guess that explains that. You might have a point.
Yes it is possible. While Bombardier is busy trying to figure out how to make a train move at high speeds and stay on the track at the same time, those pesky Europeans have found yet another creative spot to stick a traction motor - in the wheel itself. Also credit ABB/Adtranz with water cooled traction motors, and ahost of other modern features that probbably won't be seen on this side of the Atlantic for years. Just like it took an eternity for modern locomotives to pop up here, in the form of the AEM-7 / ALP-44. I believe they also beat GE to the punch with AC traction.
But, that's what you get in this country in this day and age. Look at Amtrak.
Whaddaya mean, "Look at Amtrak"? Amtrak is so forward-looking that they bought stuff that hasn't been developed yet!
I have an Acela 1999 poster!
From the look of the beast the power truck is located under the cab on each end. the body seems to be quadruple articulated with the trucks fixed under the cabs and the center section. The center section is low floor, probably with some stub axle arrangement similar to the Type 8. It is a supurb looking vehicle compared to the Type 8 and gets a big plus for a window in the center section. The body is probably designed for honor system fare collection.
Why wouldn't it work in Boston?
Two possibilities:
Unable to meet subway clearances, grade changes and curves.
PAYE fare collection
Gerry
Here's four more pictures of the Strasbourg trams. They're from the site www.viennaslide.com which I'd point you to directly but I find it impossible to navigate and extremely poorly organized. The main home page doesn't even render in Netscape. But the pictures, once you find them, are beautiful.
-Dave
one
two
three
four
And here's some more:
http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/fr/trams/Strasbourg/pix.html
I was wondering if anybody would write a book on the redbirds, now
that they will be gone forever. The book would cover from the place
of birth, to the end of their days.
why write a book when you've got video?
1SF9
I'm afraid flash photography will just make the Repulsive Rustbirds crumble to pieces.
HA,HA,that's funny. Now i will like to hear from real redbirds fans.
You would like to hear from Redbird fans period, as I will not deny the fact that I utterly detest the Repulsive Rustbirds, may they rust in pieces.
Well at least the Redbirds aren't as bad as the Long Island RR's recently-retired MP-75 Diesel Coaches, utterly filthy and completely despicable; civil words can not describe these rolling heaps of garbage, filth and excrement (yes, excrement - their biffies had long ceased to function).
You have a right to dislike these cars, as their maintenance seems to have been deferred. But at least be tolerant of those (myself included) who still have a soft spot in their hearts for them.
wayne
Trust me when I say this: Those LIRR coaches could be worse! And I've personally been seated in one when it was.
-Hank
They just wanted to get you in the mood for the trip past all the garbich down the Bayridge line :-( It was very hot too, but just the same I'm glad that I went.
I wonder when the last time the A/C actually worked on that car or if NY&A had to pay extra for a car suppositively with A/C ?
BTW, since it was bought as a mngt. office car, if it can be made to work i'll bet they make it happen ... then if they use it again for a field trip it's going to spoil us.
Mr t__:^)
Good things about the old LIRR coaches:
I once got to operate the doors.
The lights would flicker out for no reason (and often stay that way, I got the idea for a "Dark and Quiet car" after this happened on the Port Jeff at night, couldn't see 2 feet in front of you but the night view was great).
The coaches had storm doors that could stay open, so there was a nice breeze when the A/C was not working.
Standing right behind the engine was possible.
Standing in the last car's vestibule with no rear engine.
Car number 2992, I think it was a bar car for the Port Jeff (blue stripe, no seats, but a counter).
The screeching when the train goes over a bump.
The manual doors on many cars.
The really cool parlor cars with the red stripes that were on Montauk line trains, as well as a solid consist on the replacement Port Jeff train when the C-1 and Fl-9 set wasn't running (saw this only twice).
We serve with pride.
The way you could see through the floor to the track on some cars.
The air doors instead of electric.
The way you could spot a ZIP amongst a train of MP-75s from a mile away.
The looks of surprise, horror and disgust on passengers boarding an Oyster Bay train at Mineola after they had been spoiled by shiny Budd cars.
When my train of C-3s died between Sea Cliff and Glen Head, and had to be pushed by the train behind (GP-38 and F-7-A). We were forced to transfer from the "Metal Monstrosity" (Conductor's words) to the old train behind, and arrived at Jamaica 3 hours late (Well, we were in the train behind, which was only 2 hours late). We kept making all the stops (and moved at 7 MPH!). The lights kept flickering like crazy, and I was told by one of the passengers already on that it hadn't been like that before they had to push.
Regarding #13 -- the Zip Cars WERE the MP75's.
Regarding #8 & #12 -- the manual doors were onthe P72's, which were originally 2901-2980 (some were rebuilt to bar cars in the 2991-2994 series -- item #6). All the former m.u. cars converted to push-pull cars were the ones with the air doors.
Hmm, somewhere (online) I read that the Zip cars were MP-73s, and the picture included showed the car type with the square end door window, I believe here.
08/01/2000
Henry,
Two mistakes there:
Reference to the "MP-75's" is in reality the MP-72's. Also, refernece to the "MP-73's" is really the MP-75's (Worlds Fair "Zips").
To my knowledge, there was never any MP-73's on the LIRR.
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct, Bill.
There were MP41, 54, 70, 72, and 75 classes.
The 72's were the 1955-1956 vintage Pullman-Standard cars which were built as follows:
MP72c 2501-2522 control motor
MP72T 2601-2674 blind motor
T72 2801-2844 trailers
P72 2901-2980 loco-hauled coach (I say "loco-hauled" as they DID see service behind steam engines until 10/55!!)
The 75's were the "Zip" cars built in 1963 by Pullman-Standard and were as follows:
MP75c 2525-2536 control motors
MP75T 2675-2692 blind motors
When the cars were converted to push-pull, the MP75 fleet became 2700 to 2735 series; the even numbers were the former MP75c's. The odd numbers were the MP75T's. They were NOT rebuilt in numerical order, however.
The T72's remained 2801-2844 when they were converted to push-pull.
The MP72c and MP72T were converted to push-pull cars in the 2845-up series, and then the 2740-up series. Again, they were NOT done in numerical order.
Some of the MP72T (former 2600 series) were converted to parlors with the red stripes.
The P72's were NOT push-pull cars. The were always loco-hauled. Ther were a small handful converted to bar cars numbered 2991-2994, and this left gaps in the original 2901-2980 series.
OK, we'll give a few plusses among the many minuses - but try riding in a seat where you butt goes right through it. And there was good old #2801 - "A River Runs Through It (and boy does it ever STINK!)"; their mystical opaque windows, being bounced around to the point of needing Dramamine(TM) etc. etc
I DID like the tubular light shades in some of the high # 2700's series cars.
#2833 was also devoid of seats; looked like it was also a snack bar/bar car.
wayne
Wayne, unfortunately all your negative points have nothing to do with the cars. It is totally due to the LIRR's maintenance. (or non-maintenance) I loved riding on the platforms between cars with the metal sounds and the creaking. I already miss all of Henry's positive points although I haven't ridden on a train with no rear loco in over 20 years. By the way, I remember when those bar cars were operational (showing my age) and when the old MP54's (?) had cars that were half passenger, half mail car.
In conclusion, if I had a choice for a ride to Jamaica between:The old dieselsThe new Tri-levels An M-1 or M-3 I would pick the old diesels every time!!!
Ah yes, the old MPB-54c's.....4385 to 4399. I rememberthe combine cars very well myself (also an old fart....)
R-29
I like your handle. Don't worry about those casting sour grapes. There just jealous.The Redbirds were without exception the best subway cars I ever rode,proud successors to the legendary Lo-V's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I dunno bout that. #9480 didn't seem to mind me taking his picture yesterday. Then again, he wasn't really a RUSTBIRD, just a Redbird.
I saw an R29 that was in essentially immaculate condition - all rust had been repaired and it had a gloss red (like the R33) paint job as opposed to the regular matte finish the R29s have. This was #8642-8643. They even fixed up the number plaques. Is this to be a museum piece I wonder?
The rest of them (along with the R26 and R28 cars) were in fairly sad shape.
wayne
Maybe they should have left things the way the IRT and the others did for years. The cars were never washed; all the dust, dirt, and oil film they pikced up in the subways made an excellent preservative! If anyone call tell close enough that the old IRT cars looked like they had oval rivet heads that's the reason. Dirt buildup!
The graffiti problem, and the MTA's failure to deal with it when it first began, probably added a few years of corrosion to the bodies of the Redbirds. Once the taggers were encouraged to think their work would stay on the cars for an extended time, they and the MTA got into a 10-year battle of tag-and-wash, but at first they didn't wash them often enough to stop the repainting.
After the Gunn decision to wash them whenever any paint was found outside, the cycle was finally broken, but by then the tone had been set and the damage done. If they had instituted the program in 1971 instead of 1985, they might have stopped the tagging fad in its tracks (so to speak) and wouldn't have had to have washed them as much over the ensuing years.
Now, the rustiest of the trains will be going by the time fall rolls around, and it's only through the good graces of the Bombardier Corp.'s Plattsburgh plant that the bulk of the R-33/36s will probably get in at least one more winter of service.
I wonder, is the graffiti factor one of several possible reasons why the BMT/IND Redbirds (the R16’s and R27/30’s) were retired first (aside from their MDBF rates and all that)?
With the R-16s it was the MBDF, which approached negative numbers in some of the GE units. No point in putting a train in service that couldn't even make it through the day without falling apart.
With the R-27/30s more than anything it was shortsigtedness on the part of the MTA that ridership numbers would reverse direction(though considering the nadir the city was at in 1993, understandable) combined with the PR goal of being able to tell BMT and IND riders their entire fleet was air conditioned (except for those R-32 GE units, which at least have better MBDFs than the R-16s).
The 'excesive' washings probably didn't contribute to the rust on these cars. Don't forget, they're stored outdoors the majority of the time. And the redbirds didn't take well to being washed. Instead, they were repainted. If anything, graffitti helped them stay together, as paint would hold off some of the rust.
-Hank
I think the corrosive paint removing chemicals used in the car washers definitely took a few years off the `birds' lives. Compare them to the High Vs and Low Vs, which lasted as long or longer than most of the Redbirds.
When they were put out to pasture, old age in their mechanical parts was their main problem, not rust AFAIK, even though they spent more time outside overall than the Redbirds, and were built with more edges and sharp angles, which should have created more potential areas for rust to find a home.
But back then, they didn't have car washers and there was no major outbreak of graffiti during their lifespan (probably in part because aerosol spray paint wasn't commonly available to the city's wayward yutes at the time). The only washings they got were from passing showers, and that didn't seem to do as much damage in their 40- to 50-year lifespans as the `birds have suffered in their 36- to 41-years in the system.
08/01/2000
I was told that the steel dust that encrusted the old cars acted as protective layer. That's another reason why no rust problems on the old cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
...and the steel dust stayed there in part because the cars were never formally washed unless they were caught in a bad T-storm.
How's the set of 9000 - 9001 doing? This was the set that was out (4 years?) due to an undercarriage fire.
--Mark
the 9000-9001 duo has been seen frequently
scurrying about on the IRT 2 line in
full strength..
I was refering to whether or nor there was rust forming on them .... I know they're plying the rails again ....
--Mark
Redbird Fan here...
...along with the millions...
1SF9
It's too bad for you to see the redbirds go. I will try to be on that fan trip that day. I'm still upset that SEPTA got rid of The Almond Joys (they will always be my favorite), and speaking of that, why don't Seashore install a pantograph on 618 instead?
I have for many years been fascinated by the subtle differences among the R26/28, R29, R33 (both married-pair mainline and single World’s Fair versions) and R36 (both mainline and World’s Fair versions) in terms of the front end, the hardware thereon and all that, as well as the top vents signifying the positioning of the Axiflow fans. Each new unit had something a tad different from the other. Not to mention the dimension differences between the IRT Redbirds and the (since-retired) BMT/IND Redbirds (R16/27/30), which certainly had differences of their own. The stainless steel R32 and R38’s, in terms of the positioning of the side doors, were inspired by the R27 and R30 cars’ positionings.
I would suggest it be a "Arch Roof" history and include all the look-a-likes from R-15 & up.
BTW, A good start on that history is "They Moved Millions" which I'm still reading.
Mr t__:^)
I had a strange dream a few nights ago while sleeping. I was at the Mineola LIRR station. There was four tracks, not the usual two. The two middle tracks had trains that bypassed the station, one of them was elevated. I remember waiting for a westbound train to Jamaica. I saw BMT Standards on the bypass speeding by. An M-1 pulled up going westbound to Jamaica stopped but I did not want to take it because it was making local stops. Then about 5 minutes later a train of MP-54's pulled up and I got on. But we weren't going to Jamaica!
Somehow the train got on the bypass track and we went east on the old central branch (I remember looking out the front window and seeing tracks in poor condition). First I remember speeding on the eastbound track which bypassed Mineola and we were on the El.
Then we went on old LIRR ROW in Mineola which is behind County Seat Dr. and Franklin. The tracks were old and we had to go slow, and the lights flickered alot because the 3rd rail was old.
Then we joined the old central branch and continued east on the rails that lead to the East Garden City freight yard. When we got there it looked totally different than it is. It was an open cut and we stopped in there and I remember looking for the way out.
Finally found the steps up and then I woke up.
I took the R-142A from Pelham Bay Park on Friday evening. I awaited the final run to the city - the 7:12.
The T/O's at the depot were very friendly and told me that the train may be held up for a little while because it had to go back into the yard because they had a door problem - but it would be back for its final run. I was also told that the NYPD caught another vandal trying to tag the train. They asked how did I know of the train's departure time and I told them about this website. Sure enough the problem was taken care of and the train actually arrived early for its run.
The first thing I noticed was that the train as it was preparing to stop was that it does not sound like the R-110A. The R-110A used to give off these quick, short high-pitched whines as it was stopping. This train has a different sound to it. The train was welcomed into the station by the T/O's who talked to the crew of the R-142A asking them "how did they like driving the Cadillac"? Even the NYPD officers on the platform commented how the control panel of the train "looked like something on the space shuttle".
I boarded the train and proceeded to walk through the entire length to the front. I noticed that there were NYPD officers on the train who would stay on the entire train for its run. I guess this was to catch any would-be vandals. I must say the trains are really nice. They are really bright and the visibility from one car to the next is great. AS we awaited departure, someone on the platform - perhaps the dispatcher - kept announcing that this was the train of the future - welcome to the new millennium and a new generation of subway cars. As I looked about the front car there were two very important points to note:
1) There IS technically a RAIL FAN window. The full transverse cab has a longer and wider window than those on the the R-62/62A. If no one is blocking the view (ie by way of a person standing in front or putting an object to block the view) you CAN see outside. However, the view appears a little "funny". During daytime hours, you can see the track in front of you. However, at dusk and night, any signal lights give off a glare which makes a red/green/yellow signal appear to be 5 more signals intertwined with eachother. The view actually becomes something you see in a kaleidoscope. I figure there is some kind of tint on the glass or it may be the scratchitti-protective film covering the window.
2) The lavender seats are made of a very smooth plastic unlike the more "wrnkly" plastic found on the redbirds. Will this plastic be prone to being scratched or vandalized?
As we made our way down the Bronx el, you can see the amazement on the passengers's faces from the downtown and uptown platforms as the train pulled in. It takes A LOT for New Yorkers to notice anything. but almost everyone who came into the train had this surprised look and spent quite a few minutes to check the car interior out.
At this point, I would also like to add that the announcements were correct at each stop. I did notice that the male voice was a bit lower than the female. At many stations I figured that the conductor would overide the male voice because the message would stop abruptly. This was not true if the train would be in the station for a little while. The entire message could then be heard. The female voice would drop in volume as it would indicate transfer available points like at 125th or 59th streets. Also, unlike the R-110A, the time was not announced on the hour.
I also noticed that the door chime is nothing like that of the R-110A that had a "truck backing up" sound. The R62/62A has a "AVON doorbell" sound to it. This train has a chime that sounds like it was almost recorded from somewhere - like a part of the NBC chime you hear before and after the NBC movie of the week.
The downtown trip went smoothly. The station announcements were accurate and the ride was quite smooth. The stops were a little hard, but this was the T/O's first time driving the R-142. He had a fellow crew member who sat outside for most of the trip.
Once we got to Brooklyn Bridge, the male voice announced that there were to be no passengers on the train. It also thanked you for riding with NYC transit. HOWEVER, there were a number of passengers WHO STAYED ON! A crew member went from car to car with this gun-like instrument with a red light on the end of it and he pointed it at certain points in the car. Does anyone know what this instrument is used for? The NYPD officers were still on the train also and NO ONE said anything to these people. I felt like kicking myself because I could have stayed on and seen the City Hall station.
I crossed over and caught the R-142A back to Pelham Bay park. This time the train ran express and both the announcements, next station lights, and strip map lights worked accurately. In addition, we were held up twice by the dispatcher, and the voice and interior signs reflected this.
All in all, it seems that the train rode and performed very well. I look forward to riding it again soon.
I rode for the first time today at 1:37 Sunday.It rides better than the R-142, the brakes are a little jerky, the exterior is brighter than the R-142, The train operator let me watch him program the annoucements and stops on the monitor.Before we entered the last stop Pelham Bay, the annoucer a man said that we were delayed due to a train in the station.it showed that on the screen on top.
The NYPD officers (some in plainclothes) are
WITH the train crews.. you can easily spot them
as they are the ones who venture from car to car
more times than any one of us here.. since
they are "with the crew" they manage to stay
on the train without being barked at.. especially
the guy with the tater tot haircut.
The Police Officers are not with the crew but they check in time to time. They are not only fighting crime but are reporting any defects with the train. The one who is standing or sitting outside the T/O or C/R cab is a T.S.S.
Is boarding a subway car with a camcorder in hand
a crime??? If it is, I'd like a fact sheet...
south ferrry how are you going to shoot a vidieo with a r 142??
thru the transverse closed off & blocked off cab ??
& no railfan window to shoot thru !!...any suggestions ???
...who said anything about filming on a 142?
Bwahahahahaaaa!! I'm Redbird4Lyfe.
right on south ferry !!
right on !!!!
nice ,observations...falling apart allready ??
looks like a ""lot of useless excess systems" to break down !!
cool! Thanks for a detailed but dispassionate report. Will look forward to riding them when I am there in the fall.
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My boss bought me that book ... I think I'm in real trouble :-)
Mr t
I've heard many of my railfan buddies wax poetic about new tunnels that will be built, should be built, might never be built, or could be built before the 22nd Century. Since I live in California, can some of you gentlemen out there clue me in as to what progress, if any, has been made to build all these new tunnels I've been reading about for the past few months. Are they needed? Is there money for it available? And how is the Manny B progress coming along. I heard on that score they're thinking of taking trains off the bridge and replacing them with other lines. What gives there? And who is going to decide on this? Does the Mayor or any politicos have a say in this? It seems to be that those in power think a hell of a lot less about our subway than we do. And that's plain disgusting.
In Philly, we were suppose to have a subway system larger than New York, but it's more than likely that it will never happen. Heck, we could use a subway line under South Street.
Fred,
Right now, they're painting the south side of the bridge. In June(?) this will be complete, and then they'll start painting the north side. As a result, The B,D, and probably also the Q, will be switched to the south(Broadway) side as express trains. This is supposed to be in effect for 3 years, I believe. After this work is done, then the NY City and state DOT have to sit down, roll dice, and decide if the bridge will continue to provide train service, and wht kind. As for tunnels, the only new tunnel I know of, is the Queens Bvd Connector, which is 99% complete. This connects 21 St.-Queensbridge Rd to Queens Bvd. lines.
There is no Queensbridge Road. It's named as such because the station is under the Queensbridge Houses at 21ST Street and 41ST Avenue.
Used to lived there Pigs. There was no train station then, however. We had to walk four blocks to Queens Plaza to catch the disgusting 4th Avenue Local (#2)which would take us to Times Square and 42nd Street. It was a long ride, even if it was only for five stops. I hated that train. Nirvana came when we got to 42nd, leaped off the train and climbed aboard the Sea Beach (#4) or the Brighton (#1) which would take us to Coney Island or Ebbets Field.
jdl: The Q terminates at 21st and Queensbridge at this moment. Does that mean that the Q will be extended along Queens Blvd as is the G and R? Or will those trains be rerouted along the 21st Street-Queensbridge route? Either way it looks like routes of those various lines will be extended. Am I way off on this one?
YOU ARE ALWAYS WAY OFF/
Whatever service runs via 63rd Street will replace the G. If the Manhattan Bridge situation doesn't change simultaneously, even though it probably will, this will be the Q. Assuming the bridge does swap sides, then there will most likely be a new V train to serve it. That, however is only speculation. The F can be rerouted there and become the local with the new train (V) taking the 63rd Street line.
In any case, if a new line is created, it WILL be called the V.
Well, there's no reason the Q can't serve the 63rd St/Queens Blvd lines from Broadway. In fact, I've been hoping the Q would run express all the way to 179th, or local to 179th so the F could run express. I was hoping there would also be the new V (via 6th Ave) serving the local.
:) Andrew
Fred,
You're not way off at all. Unfortunately, the routing plans are still up in the air. The most probable, is that the Q will be extended. There may also be extra service via Broadway or 6 Ave(Depending on the situation with the Manhattan Bridge, and wherever the Q winds up running).
JDL
They're doing a lot more than painting, but since the current contract is almost done, maybe the work that's left consists only of painting.
Trains will return to the north side once the next contract is done (2004?). Once the train service flips to the south, they're going to reinforce the north side and completely replace all of the structural steel under the tracks.
(Trains will return to the north side once the next contract is done (2004?). Once the train service flips to the south, they're going
to reinforce the north side and completely replace all of the structural steel under the tracks.)
If I'm not mistaken, won't this be the second time they've had to essentially rebuilt the north side? And what if the south side needs to be rebuilt by the time the north side is done?
Larry,
They only did 2 things on the north side. They replaced the tracks between 86 and 88. From 89 to 90, they replaced the upper roadway. If the south side has to be rehabilitated again in 4 years, we really have major problems.....
JDL
Hi J,
I knew about all of the structural work done, but now, all I see them doing is painting, talking and eating.
JDL
This month, a contract to rebuild the Manhattan Bridge, estimated at $200 million, will be awarded. I am sure this 5 year construction job will greatly impact the subway routes
Today I was on one of my weekend joy rides. I got on the B train at Grand Street today. It went local as far as 59th Street in Brooklyn. Then, onto the N line. Bam!! Next stop, Coney Island! Really fun. Really fast. It's just a shame that there's only one express track on the Sea Beach now.
Train Buff Headquarters
i certainly hope you werent on an r68.....cause it would have been more fun and entriguing if they were running the r32's or even the r40slants over the seabeach express,
dan
There is ONE, and sometimes two - Slant R40 that run on the "B" only on the weekends in addition to the R68As and occasional R68s they run.
Wayne
By the way when the Q train G.O. starts Aug.5 are they going to use Slants on the Broadway to Queensbridge shuttle?
I was on a R68 going express to Coney Island down Sea Beach, it was fun, but I was thinking, "could we go a lot faster than this?"
I was on both R-40 slant and R68, as well as R68a Bs going express to 59st on a similar GO, and the R-40slant was 35 seconds faster than the R-68a, which was 10 seconds faster than R-68.
Does it still slow down around Bay Parkway? The last time I was on it, the train was standing there for 5 minutes.
[The last time I was on it, the train was standing there for 5 minutes.]
The next station south is Kings Highway. North of that station, there is an interlocking. Southbound trains encounter a red over red signal just north of the interlocking. Train operators have to push a button marked "Ready to proceed" to clear the signal. Maybe it just took a long time for the tower operator to clear the signal.
The new signal system blows. It ruins any fun in a Sea Beach express run. The GT's and WD's around 8th Ave, Bay Pkwy and Kings Highway slow service so much that no real advantage exists going express over going local. And if you're on an R68, fugetaboutit. An R32 making local stops will get to 86th St before any R68 going express.
Does anybody know what the maximum speed is that a train reaches between JSQ and Harrison?
I’d venture probably 46 M.P.H. – roughly the same as the highest speeds reached by the A and C trains in the tunnel between Broadway-Nassau St. and High St.-Brooklyn Bridge (that is, according to the speedometers attached to the R32 and R38 cars).
i believe newark bound path trains run an aprox. 60 mph. between journal square and harrison.....but remeber its just an aprox. guess!
dan
I believe this is covered in the PATH rule book. IIRC it's 55 MPH.
oh ok thanks for the clarification on that.....but i was close though
dan
I dislike quoting from memory so i will try to verify this tomorrow.
I was on the Path about 2 weeks ago..And outside Harrsion the train I was on was raceing a Amtrk and NJ transit and the path was keeping up with the other's Id say we were going about 60 Mph..The funny thing's is that coming from 33 st the line is slow but once you get to JSQ.. it's all down hill from there..
--RRR
Right on the money! It is 55 in that section .
Here is a list of speed limit based on ROW signs
Leaving Newark-30, goes to 40 just before Harrison
Leaving Harrison to Maintenance lead to NJT/Amtrak(East) 40
Harrison East Car Facillity lead to West of Journal Square(Summit West) 55
Approaches to Journal Square(JSQ) drops to 30 then 25.
Leaving JSQ it is 30, increasing to 40 just before the tunnel portal
Thanks for checking for me. Nice to know that my memory isn't totally gone yet.
Maximum Authorized Speed is 55 MPH from the west end of the Hack bridge to just west of Hudson Tower. Coming downhill from the bridge,they can probably hit 62 or so.
Both have the tracks on the outside of the roadways. Why are there problems with our bridge and none down in Philly?
Actually, about 22 years ago, the concrete trackbed on The Ben Franklin bridge was crumbling and was replaced with stringers and open ties. Also around the same time, the suspension cables were replaced. Now The Ben Franklin is getting the paint job of it's life, plus the old paint is being stripped. I assume the same plans are called for on The Manhattan Bridge.
The cables (original) were replaced because they had recently been painted for the first time, with waterproof paint, which trapped moisture inside the cables and allowed them to rust.
For one thing, there's only ONE track on either side of the Be Franklin Bridge. Also, the trains tha do operate over that bridge aren't the heavy, long trains that NYCTA has run since the Manhattan Bridge was opened.
On weekends, the PATCO trains are usually one or two cars -- maybe six cars maximum in peak hours during the week.
Not sure when the Ben Franklin bridge opened, but perhaps it has gotten sme better maintenance over its lifespan. I know the tracks used to run on a solid roadbed over the bridge, but last time I was in Philadelphia, it seemed like the tracks were "open" to th Delaware River below, as are the Manhattan Bridge tracks.
The Ben Franklin Bridge (the Delaware River Bridge until the Walt Whitman Bridge was built) opened around 1926.
While the Ben opened in '26 (the name changed from the Delaware River Bridge in '55, two years before the Walt opened), the Bridge Line trains didn't start operation until '36. The Bridge Line was never a major operation and often operated single car trains. PATCO runs much more frequently and six-car trains are the basic operation only in the peak hours.
The main difference between the Ben and the Manhattan are the placement of the tracks. On the Ben, the tracks are at the outer edges of the bridge, where support is greatest on suspension bridges. The Manhattan has the tracks on the interior where support is not as great (the floor beams of the bridge must do more work to carry the loads and transfer them to the cables). Torsion would be greater if the tracks were at the edges but harmonic motion becomes more of a problem with the tracks' locations on the Manhattan.
One other nuance on the Ben was the provision of space for trolley tracks. The curb lanes were unpaved from its opening until the 50's. This was to be used for trolley tracks. The tracks were to allow Public Service cars to cross the bridge and enter a large underground terminal beneath the Bridge Plaza on the Phila side. The tracks were never installed (PS was getting rid of trolley lines at the time and Phila Rapid Transit had no interest) and the remains of the terminal can be seen quickly from PATCO trains. The track space was paved to expand the bridge to 8 lanes. The lanes were VERY tight and this was changed to the current 7-lane configuration in the late 60's.
(On the Ben, the tracks are at the outer edges of the bridge, where support is greatest on suspension bridges. The Manhattan has the tracks on the interior where support is not as great )
I assume this point is backward -- the tracks are outside on the Manhattan (this I know) and in the center on the Ben (this I assume).
The "outboard" track location is blamed, in part, for the Manhattan's problems, though I doubt there are any other suspension bridges out there expected to carry as much weight and volume as the Manny B. And if they are, I'd bet they are relatively new, and who knows what shape they will be in in 100 years? If you have a wide span, big heavy things like trains belong in tunnels. At least trucks don't way so much indivdually, so the load is balanced across the span.
Ben's tracks are outside of the suspension cables; the 7 traffic lanes are between the cables.
An illustrative photo is on PATCO’s website
See the points raised by Chuchubob. The Manhattan's tracks are on the interior of the cables, while the Ben's are outside. Perhaps I didn't phrase that as clearly as I could have. In any event, the age of the bridge (almost 100 years) and the relative care given to it (suspension bridges can be maintenance intensive - in the case of the Ben as in that of many others such as the Verrazano, George Washington, Whitestone, etc there is a toll which funds ongoing care, and this provides more intense attention, while the Manhattan is just another in New York's large inventory of bridges).
Trucks can do much more damage to roadways than trains, even on long spans. The weight of the trains is controlled while that of trucks is often not (there are many overweight and undermaintained trucks out there). The weight distribution per axle on the trains is fairly constant, while on a truck this is not the case. The major damage to bridges from weight is due to impact loading, i.e. the dynamic effect of the weight. If the distribution is in question, the impact loading will be much greater,
IIRC, the Ben Franklin Bridge has only one track on each side of the bridge, and the tracks are cantiveliered off the road deck. The Manny B has 2 tracks on each side, and each set of tracks is located between the main cables (4 main cables, 2 outside of the outer deck, 2 inside of the outer deck) and is essentially 2 suspension bridges with a main road deck joining them. If the main road deck were removed (the three lower-level lanes) the bridge would stop twisting, since the load on each of the outer decks would be independent of each other. This is as per a family freind who is a civil engineer for the MTA. It was suggested, and rejected immediately as a 'short-term solution' in the early eighties when the city realized the problem it had.
-Hank
Well, if removing the lower road deck on the MB altogether would eliminate the problem, then reducing the fixicity (engineering-speak) of the connections between the lower roadway and the trusses would at the very least reduce the cracking problem. Making the bridge stronger or more rigid would only force the stress to be alleviated at some other point on the bridge, thereby not solving the problem.
I agree. I can't see how the lower deck (or lack thereof) contributes to the problem/solution. It is probably more attributable to nearly 100 years of abuse and neglect.
Simple. The twisting is across the horizontal plane, that is, flat along the main deck. The Manny B has 4 cables, set like so:
|rd|~~~~|rd|
|ss|MAIN|ss|
The '~' are just placeholders, and represent the empty space above the main roadway. The MAIN is the 3 lanes of the
lower roadway, in the center of the bridge. The ss represent
the 4 subway tracks, 2 on each side of the bridge, on the same
deck as MAIN. The rd is the 2 upper road lanes, above the subway
tracks. the '|' are the cables.
Remove the MAIN, amd you get:
|rd|~~~~|rd|
|ss|~~~~|ss|
Again, the '~' fills in the air space.
You now have 2 seperate bridges, albiet they share the same towers
and anchorages. This eliminates the 'balance' problem, and thus
the twisting in the horizontal plane.
-Hank
Sounds like it could work. The result would be two separate bridges and the loss of three traffic lanes, which would elicit the proverbial Bronx cheers from many drivers.
All I can say is, if we're all still posting here in 2007 and the Manhattan Bridge is still cracking after nearly a billion spent, let's chip in for a taxpayers' lawsuit. I'm not optimistic.
What about this:
While one set of tracks is closed build a new roadway over the current center roadway, plus tear up the closed tracks and replace with roadway. Once that is done build 3-4 new tracks where the center roadway was. Once that is in use tear up the other tracksd and replace with roadway. Maybe one track (the inner one) on each side plus 2 in the center plus the new center upper roadway?
(While one set of tracks is closed build a new roadway over the current center roadway, plus tear up the closed tracks and replace with roadway.)
One of the Manhattan Bridge's big jobs is to carry big trucks, since these won't fit through the tunnels (and won't pay the toll) and aren't allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge. It is likely that tall trucks won't fit through the lower levels beneath the upper level.
There may be even more work than that, some of the stone supports for the bridge prop up the bridge outer portions but not the inner. If I remember correctly (I see them so much I can't remember exactly what they look like, go figure) they are shaped like an upside-down 'U'.
(If the main road deck were removed (the three lower-level
lanes) the bridge would stop twisting, since the load on each of the outer decks would be independent of each other. This is as per a family freind who is a civil engineer for the MTA. It was suggested, and rejected immediately as a 'short-term solution' in the early eighties when the city realized the problem it had.)
By short term, did they mean the solution could be implemented in the short term, thereby denying other people's friends and relatives a bunch of contracts? We have had one short term solution after another ever since.
'Short Term' as in 'Build a replacement bridge'
-Hank
Your recollection is correct. However, the fix is probably not that easy. I would look more to the upper-level roadways (above the tracks) as contributors to the problem, as they are adding load to the main deck on top of the loads already imposed by the subways and vehicles on the main-deck roadway. Also, the upper-level loading creates torque/torsion on the main deck (since the load is applied from a distance, which induces what is called in engineering a 'moment', or more commonly known as rotation).
The fact that the bridge is essentially two suspension bridges sharing a common main roadway could also contribute to the problem, since the two 'separate' bridges are twisting in opposition to each other. However, I wouldn't suspect this as a major problem since the inner main cables are most likely redundant or carrying minimal loads. Keep in mind that at the time the bridge was built the science of suspension bridges (and civil engineering in general) was fairly new. The way to keep a structure standing was to overbuild it. The Brooklyn Bridge is an example of this, with its many redundant cables. Bridges are built with a factor of safety, i.e. the design load is 1 1/2 times the anticipated load, thus the bridge has a factor of safety of 1.5. The Brooklyn has been determined to have a factor of safety of 9!
Take this first-hand from a civil engineer (although not a practicing structural engineer).
I heard that those small, auxilliary cables on the Brooklyn Bridge (the ones that make the fan pattern on the suspention cables) are by themselves enough to hold up the span albeit with a large sag.
Actually, the presence of the two inner cables may be what induces the moment, not the upper roadways. The loads on the inner cables should always be LARGER than the outer cables, given that each cable carries half of the dead load (or maximum live loads) of the outer roadways and tracks, and the inner cables in addition carry half of the dead load of the inner roadway. Since the loads are larger, there's a greater deflection on the inner cables, and the short distance between the cables (28') puts stress on the connections of both the upper roadways and the track structures.
Also, remember that the unbalanced operation of trains over the Manny B contributed to the bridge's problems. Tracks on the northeast side have always carried more service than those on the southwest face. Before the Chrystie St. project (1967), the NE tracks carried Broadway trains, while the SW tracks were for Nassau St. lines which ran primarily during rush hours only. Post-Chrystie, NE has 6th Ave. lines, and SW would carry less frequent B'way routes if those tracks were open. As a result, the bridge has twisted somewhat to the northeast side over the years. I first rode on that bridge as an adult in summer 1981, in a car with my mother who was immediately scared of the thing! We were on the lower roadway, and of course I was fascinated by the subway tracks and the occasional train...
Randy,
Did you ever exprience the twisting, while stuck inn traffic?
The Manny B doesn't twist that radically! What I meant was a much slower process taking place over seven or eight decades. Train traffic has always been heavier on the northeast side, therefore the roadway has slowly but surely "leaned" to that side over time.
When I was in jr. high school I saw an amazing film of a bridge that did indeed twist and swing in high winds. Scary as all hell, especially I imagine for any poor soul that was caught on it.
When I was in jr. high school I saw an amazing film of a bridge that did indeed twist and swing in high winds. Scary as all hell, especially I imagine for any poor soul that was caught on it.
Sounds like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (Galloping Gertie), which collapsed in 1940. This MPEG file is just a short clip, there's a longer one out there but I couldn't find it just now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[When I was in jr. high school I saw an amazing film of a bridge that did indeed twist and swing in high winds. Scary as all hell, especially I imagine for any poor soul that was caught on it.]
[Sounds like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (Galloping Gertie), which collapsed in 1940.]
Fortunately, the bridge "galloped" for long enough prior to collapse that everyone was able to get off, and there were no casualties.
Fortunately, the bridge "galloped" for long enough prior to collapse that everyone was able to get off, and there were no casualties.
Yes. There is a fascinating discussion of the collapse of that bridge in Henry Petroski's book To Engineer Is Human. That book sparked my interest in stress analysis. I still don't know a lot about it - I'm certainly not an engineer - but it's a fascinating subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes and after that incident, the Whitestone which was also built too light was modified to keep the same thing from occurring there. Thought that might be of interest to Noo Yawkers, oops, pardon my spelling.
Not true. I have a book at home on the bridges of Othmar Amman (who designed the Whitestone, Triboro, Throgs Neck, George Washington, Little Hell Gate, Bayonne and Verrazzano, among others) which says the bridge was just fine as built. In fact, it was a student of his who designed the Tacoma bridge, and the main problem it had (Amman was on the investigation committee) was that it's main span was too long, and it was unbalanced by too-short side spans. This, coupled with its plate girder deck, is what caused the failure. The Whitestone was at no such risk. In fact, Moses took the opurtunnity of the 'strengthening' to eliminate the pedestrian access and add traffic lanes.
-Hank
Well, it's kind of like what came first, the chicken or the egg. If the bridge had been of heavier construction, the "unbalancing" would have been of little effect.
As for the Whitestone, B&T wants to re-deck it, and remove the stiffening truss in the process, replacing it with bracing under the roadway.
The odd thing about the Whitestone is the weird metalworks around midspan, where the truss dissapears, and the cables reach the road deck. The cables in this location are shrink-wrapped, presumably to limit their exposure to road salt.
-Hank
That's because the truss was added later. The truss had to be fitted under the cables, thus the unappealing treatment at midspan.
What I'm talking about isn't even CLOSE to being a truss. More like a set of rollers and pistons.
-Hank
I think that's some kind of damper.
The real problem with the Narrows bridge was a result of the nature of suspension bridges. These had evolved as more understanding was obtained on their behavior. The Narrows bridge had the smallest main span length to deck depth ratio of any suspension bridge when it opened. This saved on structural steel and was thought to be a very efficient design. Whitestone was designed at the same time with the same principles.
Narrows was unfortunately in a very windy gorge area and although a model of the bridge was wind-tunnel tested the lightness and flexibility of the bridge was its downfall. It didn't blow down but vibrated (i.e. harmonic motion) to pieces. Several times in its short life it was closed due to high winds and from day one the owners realized the mistake of the slender design. After the collapse the Whitestone was stiffened through the placement of the deck trusses which took away from the beauty of the bridge but kept it intact.
Did the George Washington Bridge ever have any wind-related problems before the lower level was added? There didn't seem to be much of a stiffening truss, unless it was all done beneath the original span.
No. The conventional wisdom after the Tacoma collapse, and problems other bridges were having said that it should, but since it was built so heavily to recieve a second deck, and since the deck was so wide (8 lanes), there was never a problem.
I recall hearing on the old WNEW-TV (now WNYW in New York) series "When Havoc Stuck" that there was one casualty - a dog that was too scared to leave its master's car.
--Mark
Apocryphal story... all vehicles were clear of the bridge at the time of the collapse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While I can agree with you about the dog story being an anecdote, there was one car still on the bridge at the time of the collapse. Have a look.
From the report: Smith, Doug, "A Case Study and Analysis of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge Failure", 99.497 Engineering Project, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada, March 29, 1974. Photos posted online at Carleton University
Figure 9: A few minutes after the first piece of concrete fell, this 600 foot section broke out of the suspension span, turning upside down as it crashed in Puget Sound. Note how the floor assembly and the solid girders have been twisted and warped. The square object in mid air (near the centre of the photograph) is a 25 foot (7.6m) section of concrete pavement. Notice the car in the top right corner.
--Mark
And, as has been mentioned on the board before, the designer of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, Leon Moisseiff, was an employee with the New York City Bridge Department when he introduced the defelction theory into calculating the structural design of the Manhattan Bridge, which failed to take into account the twisting the brudge would be subjected to by crossing trains.
Just wanted to point the thread back in the direction of the subways :-)
Mark, there's also actual movie footage shot from one end of the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge during the "dance" and collapse, and the car is CLEARLY visible in the movie. It is run quite frequently on The Discovery Channel.
A "new" Tacoma Narrows Bridge was built in the same location -- using the very same concrete tower piers as the original. I've driven across it many times in recent years, and I always get an eerie feeling when doing so, knowing (and having seen the movie of) what took place.
Do you remember that commercial for that car stereo system where it showed the car and the bridge all rocking about to loud rock music. Then suddenly the music stops and there's a close-up of the guy in the car and he says, "Oh...sorry" I think that ad won a Cleo award.
>>> Mark, there's also actual movie footage shot from one end of the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge during the "dance" and collapse, and the car is CLEARLY visible in the movie. It is run quite frequently on The Discovery Channel <<<
That film also shows a man trying to go to the car on foot, but returning without reaching it. The narrative states that he was trying to rescue a dog which was in the car.
Tom
The clicher is that film is in color! They interviewed the gentleman who shot it, and he recalled that a friend came by his house and said the bridge was starting to sway, so he grabbed his camera and captured a piece of history. I dare say that every engineering student since then has seen that clip in class.
IIRC, that clip was also seen on You Asked For It. Jack Smith closed by saying it was "filmed at the right place at the right time."
They tore down the old steel towers because they had suffered some damage in the collapse.
The current Tacoma Narrows bridge is functionally obsolete, meaning there's too much traffic for it to handle, so a new bridge is in the design stages and will be built next to the current one.
Yes, but the piers that the towers were built on were used for the new bridge.
-Hank
Yes. I was only trying to add that there was a reason that they hadn't used the towers again.
There's a bridge with a similar affliction in Maine (?). There was recently an article in Scientific American describing how the bridge has been retrofitted and studied over the years to understand the dynamic effects of wind on suspension bridges. This is a fairly old problem. There is a extant suspension bridge in Wheeling WV that is a ca.1860's reconstruction of another bridge (same towers) that was destroyed by wind.
Although my training is electrical engineering, of course I was
subjected to that filmstrip many, many times. The explanation
for the failure, besides not accounting for wind load, is that
distances between the nodes of the bridge were related to each
other by small integer numbers. Therefore, there could exist
a standing wave oscillation whose wavelength is some small multiple
of these distances. If you look at the film, the problem is not
so much that the entire structure is swaying, but at any instant
one part is twisted clockwise while the other is counterclockwise,
and this repeats the length of the bridge.
On later suspension bridge designs the ratio of the distance between
towers to the distance from tower to anchorage/abutment is
actually an irrational number, like Pi, or a fraction consisting
of two large prime numbers. In the former case, it is mathematically
impossible for a standing wave to exist, and in the latter, the
wavelength would be so absurdly short (fractions of an inch) that
such a wave could not realistically exist given the damping present.
The Tacoma bridge had problems from the day it opened and was called
"galloping Girtie" or something like that. The Bronx-Whitestone
bridge, of nearly identical design, also experienced similar problems
but was quickly retrofitted with heavy side trusses.
The Tacoma bridge had problems from the day it opened and was called "galloping G[e]rtie" or something like that. The Bronx-Whitestone bridge, of nearly identical design, also experienced similar problems but was quickly retrofitted with heavy side trusses.
No it wasn't. The Whitestone was designed by Othmar Amman; and he was on the investigational committee that examined the cause of the Tacoma failure. It was later determined that the deck of the whitestone was just fine. The problem with the Tacoma bridge was that the length of the span was too long for its width, and the main span was not properly balanced by the too-short side spans. Even in an area with little to no wind, the bridge would have shaken itself to pieces; only over years, not in a matter of hours.
The Whitestone was a sound bridge before it was 'trussed', and still would be.
-Hank
Why was the BWB trussed up then?
The Tacoma blew down in a 35 - 40mph wind, IIRC ... not very severe for a bridge to withstand.
--Mark
And in that area known as the "Tacoma Narrows" there is ALWAYS a pretty stiff wind blowing.....
It was its design or lack of planning to guard against the bridge being caught in its own simple harmonic motion frequency that brought it down. Once the winds caused the sway to hit this frequncy the bridge then started swaying in a sine wave that increased with time. As the sine wave grew larger and larger the bridge eventually buckled.
So actually, a faster wind may not have destroyed the bridge...
That could be. The key was to get the bridge swaying at just the right frequency.
No, the speed of the wind is analogous to how hard you pluck
a guitar string. The same fundamental frequency will result,
but the greater the stimulation, the greater the amplitude of
the oscillation.
So was it simply the design of the bridge that allowed to be "played" at its harmonic frequency?
In light of the TN bridge coming down, are bridges built now that are simply "bigger and tougher" or do they make them so that they are not so vulnerable to movement at a certain frequency?
I suspect it is most likely both.
Structural engineers (of whom I am NOT one) have learned a lot from such mistakes. As I understand it, one of the big lessons from the Tacoma Narrows disaster was to design bridges (and other structures) with counter-acting or damping frequencies. Yes, there is some "build it stronger" involved as well, but mostly it's "build it smarter".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure if this applied today, but when armies march they are told to brake step when crossing a bridge because the harmonic impacts would shake it appart. Imagine what would happen if someone plays a song with a really strong beat over huge loudspeakers while every one is running accross the Varazzano Narrows bridge in the NY marathon. If a good %tage of the runners start running in step the bridge might shake its self appart.
When the George Washington Bridge opened, two platoons of troops marched towards one another from either end IN STEP just to prove that it was so solidly built that nothing would happen. Nothing did happen, other than a slight shaking.
The reason soldiers break step when marching across a bridge is because their cadence could be in resonance with the bridge's natural frequency.
>>> two platoons of troops marched towards one another....Nothing did happen, other than a slight shaking. <<<
Steve;
Since a platoon is only about 40 men, it is a little frightening that two platoons would cause a slight shaking. One would expect that you could march two battalions across the GW bridge in step without noticing anything.
Tom
I doubt he was using platoon to refer to a specific number of troops as opposed to two separate groups.
You're right. I wasn't sure which term to use, platoon or batallion. Sorry if it caused confusion.
In 1939 an US Infantry Bn. would have and HQ squad (12 men), an AT gun platoon (16 men), 3 infantry companies (composed of 120 men, 4 machine guns (+12 men), 3 light mortars (+6 men)), a recon platoon and a weapons company.
yes a new one is being built next to it. See my earlier post on the subject for details on the new bridge...
Is the new bridge augmenting the existing one a la Delaware Memorial or the original Sunshine Skyway, or is it replacing the bridge completely a la I can't think of an example of such a project that has already been completed (I know of proposals to replace the Tappan Zee and Woodrow Wilson Bridges, but no construction work yet).
I know of proposals to replace the Tappan Zee and Woodrow Wilson Bridges, but no construction work yet.
It is my understanding that much of the engineering work has been completed for the new bridge that will replace the Wilson Bridge and that some land acquisition and demolition has already begun (the latter based on my wife's observations as she travels the Wilson bridge on a regular basis).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Woodrow Wilson replacement is hung up on funding right now. The feds have pledged as much as they say they can, and apparently Virginia is unwilling to appropriate more money than they already have to cover escalating estimates for the construction costs.
The project encompasses a lot of work on nearby interchanges and the approach roads, and one possibility is for Virginia to defer that work and put all of thier available money towards the bridge itself.
The project still isn't likely to go to bid until 2001.
I stand corrected - thanks, Mark.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I took a look at the site - I first saw "Galloping Gertie" (Tacoma Narrows Bridge I) on "You Asked For It" late in 1963 and remembered it vividly. I'd seen many bridges but never saw one collapse.
Let's hope the same fate doesn't befall our own great suspension bridges.
wayne
I recalled reading about the collapse when I was a kid and it always fascinated me ever since.
--Mark
Can you imagine running a train of Triplexes across TNB?
Probbly would have changed the problem from excession occillation to sagging - maybe the tops of the towers would have been able to touch each other after the first train made it onto the center section :-)
Truth is, the Tacoma Narrows bridge that stands now could probably handle a subway train if there was no traffic on it. I live about 15 minutes from the TNB. The problem with the old bridge was simple: The Narrows is extremely windy. The sides of the old bridge were covered with corrugated steel instead of just weatherproofing the exposed girders. This caused MASS wind resistance so that's why you got the galloping affect (not, as many suppose, because of bass from the car stereos of the ganstas that live in north tacoma). The current bridge (built in 1950) not only has exposed deck girders, but also has steel grates between the lanes for vertical winds to pass through. The Narrows bridge is only 4 9-foot lanes, and is the worst bottleneck in the entire South Seattle/Tacoma Metro area (all of Pierce County and the south part of King County). The EIS is done on a new bridge that will be built paralell to the existing one which should be done by 2004, 2005 at the latest. When the new bridge is open the existing bridge will have the gratings covered over and restriped for three northwest-bound lanes. the new bridge will carry three southeast-bound lanes and a bike/pedestrian path (the current sidewalks on the existing bridge are TWO FEET WIDE, suitable only for people using the bridge as a means to commit suicide). The new bridge will also be designed to support a lower deck, so that adding one with more lanes or (gasp) RAIL (a bad word in the car-driving NW) would be very inexpensive. Actually though, the attitudes are turning and Light Rail to Gig Harbor and Bremerton (the cities on the other side of the bridge) might be served by Light Rail by 2015-2020 (relatively early considering the history of how long transportation projects take in the northwest). Feel free to email me if you wanna know about the new bridge, I may be working there next summer
I've also read that the original TNB was designed to withstand a substantial static force, but a dynamic force of something like 5 psi was all it took to bring it down. I'm not an engineer, so I stand corrected in advance if this doesn't sound right.
no the dynamic force was much stronger...i've heard about 18. The main problem was wind resistance, and the width of the bridge vs. the length (galloping gertie was only two lanes)
Out of curiosity - does the current TNB look anything like the first one i.e. shape of the towers, number of lanes etc.?
wayne
The old TNB was two lanes wide, with 5-foot sidewalks. It was very 40s-modern looking, art-decoish, almost like something out of a (modern) batman movie. The towers were angular, sloping into each other, and the deck itself was very thin. The sides of the deck were corrugated, the corrugation was very large. Almost ribbed. The current TNB is very linear in design. The towers are perfectly paralell - they are just slender, square-base towers. The deck is thick, with exposed trusses. While the old TNB had only two solid cross-braces, the current one has three - and these all consist of two skinny horizontal cross braces with an "X" pattern formed by diagonal braces between the towers. The deck of the current bridge also has metal gratings between the lanes to allow vertical winds to pass through the bridge, but these will likely be removed upon completion of the new paralell bridge (see my ealier post)
Well, then you'd have a steel arch bridge that probably COULD withstand a few Triplexes crossing it :)
--Mark
Well, maybe train No. 2 of triplexes could cross if they built supports between the ends of train No. 1, whose center cars would be looping down to the water level and blocking the channel through the Tacoma Narrows (and I'd bet even the current through the Narrows wouldn't make those triplexes occillate :-)
WHat was interesting was that the side or "river" spans (the main one being the channel span) didn't disintegrate and because of their weight the suspention cable in the middle shot up and the 2 river spans drooped almost to the ground. The resons for the collaspe was because the engineers tried to save on weight by only bracing the bridge in one dimention (verticle). I know that many designs were charged and several bridges were retro-fitted to prevent simillar disasters.
... including the Whitestone Bridge, which was given stiffening truss beams the length of the span after the Tacoma Narrows collapsed.
--Mark
Well the BFB is built like a tank. If you remember the engineering motto in the 20's, bigger, stronger, heavier. The Manny B was built in the dainty, ornate victorian style with c.1900 steel and building techniques. If an atom bobm went off in Philly the BFB would still be standing the next day.
BTW the BFB was origionally intended to have 4 tracks. 2 inside of the truss and only 5 highway lanes. It didn't go to 7 lanes untill the 50's.
The 2 additional tracks were for streetcars from New Jersey. Because of the gauge difference between the Camden and Philadelphia systems the cars would have terminated in an underground terminal next to the now abandoned station as you enter the subway in Camden. PSNJ was not interested (they were beginning to convert the South Jersey streetcar lines to bus and all-service vehicle operation. Tracks were never laid in the rights of way, and they were converted to traffic lanes shortly before WWII.
The Benjamin Franklin Bridge has a $2 toll creating a big pool of funds to do regular maintenance. The last time the Manhattan Bridge saw regular maintenance WW1 had not yet been fought.
Andrew Byler
The Ben Franklin (and Walt Whitman and Betsy Ross) tolls are $3 westbound, having gone up from $2 within the last year or so.
$5 million of toll money just went to the Republican National Convention.
($5 million of toll money just went to the Republican National Convention.)
That's why usage fees are so unpopular. You can say you should pay for what you use, but who trusts the politicians not to suck the money away?
Can somebody clarify this GO? It supposed to run on the A line to the WTC. But then @ the same time it run in two sections. One section between 205St and 2Av. The Downtown section runs btwn W.4st and CI. ????????
3Train#2119Mike
The D is running in two segments. 6 trains cover the brooklyn-manhattan portion while another 6 trains cover the northern (Manhattan-Bronx) portion. North is north and south is south and never the trains shall meet.
At Northern Blvd and 46st there were a small number of small G.O. postings along the platform saying this:
(E) (F) WEEKEND
Staion Closed
Followed by some dates in August (I couldn't really read the signs well from the train). Checking the MTA site, I didn't see any info on this whatsoever. No postings at all at 36th or 65th, and I didn't check Steinway. A few problems with this:
1. Weekends, the E and F don't stop there (or aren't suppost to).
2. The only logical explanation is that both directions will be going express, and use bridge plates for 36th and 65th (never saw this before!).
Uh....What does G.O. stand for?
Thank you.
:) Andrew
07/30/2000
G.O. = GENERAL ORDER
Bill "Newkirk"
G.O. stands for general order. General Orders are typically written to define service reroutes or disruptions including:
What service will be disrupted.
What the alternate service will be.
Times that the G.O. will operate.
Who are those responsible for it's implimentation, operation and clearing.
Special conditions such as power off, work train requirements, track blocks and station closures.
They also identify the purpose of the G.O.
likely I've forgotten some of the other details.
You missed an explanation:
Only the Northern Blvd station will be closed.
-Hank
The sign was at 46st too. Anyway, I went back and checked it today, and I read it closely.
Here's the text (Remember, this is at Northern Blvd):
R replaces the E service between Queens Plaza and Jamaica Center. F runs on the R between Queens Plaza and 34st.
For Manhattan E stations, go to the 45 Rd-Court House Sq station and take the 7 to Tines Sq-42 St and transfer for the A or C. For Manhattan F stations, take the 7 to 5 Av and transfer to the F. Normal F service runs between 42 St-6 Av and Stillwell Av.
The 23 St-Ely, Lexington, and Fifth Avs stations are closed.
For Lexington Av, take the 7 to Grand Central-42 St and transfer to the 6. Take the 6 to 51 st-Lex Av.
For 5 Av, take the 7 to 5 Av-42 St.
For 7 Av, take the Shuttle Bus to Queens Plaza and transfer to the F or R. Take the F or R to 57 St-7 Av or take the F or R to 34 St and transfer to an uptown D.
For Queens E F stations, take the shuttle bus to Queens Plaza station and transfer to the F or R.
Post: 8/4/00 control area, 23 St-Ely Av REMOVE 8/29/00; Service Plan B-31-09.
Looks like someone put the wrong posters at the wrong stations! Imagine, walking to the 7 from Northern Blvd and 46st! They weren't even supposed to be posted at more than one station!
While driving this afternoon from Manhatten to LGA, I took the Midtown Tunnel (LIE) to the BQE to the Grand Central Parkway, to the airport. About halfway up the BQE to the GCP, I noticed on my left (west of the BQE)was what appeared to be an abandoned rail line that paralleled for a mile or two the BQE. It was elevated most of the way on an embankment with several stone overpasses and didn't appear to be too overgrown with shrubs/weeds. Does anyone know what RR used this line? LIRR? NH? NY&A? Thanks in advance.
---Dave
Those are freight tracks for part of the way, used daily for a garbage train (I hear). Had you gone for the western part of the BQE you would have seen Amtrak's NEC cut in (catenary and all).
I've seen where they cross over the Astoria line, under the Flushing line (near 69st. sta), over Queens Blvd, and over the Lower Montauk. I believe it becomes part of the Bay Ridge Branch.
My friend and his buddies have a small hideout somewhere along the ROW, they have seen a train about 5 times this year.
The line that you see connects the bay Ridge branch of the LIRR to the Hells gate Bridge. Theyeventually meet with the line from Penn-Station/Sunnyside yard just before the bridge. The line is used for 2 daily freight trains.
The line that you see connects the bay Ridge branch of the LIRR to the Hells gate Bridge. They eventually meet with the line from Penn-Station/Sunnyside yard just before the bridge. The line is used for 2 daily freight trains.
Thanks for the information.
Anybody know what is planned for next Saturday, Subtalk anniversary trip? Or are all the events going to happen with the Coney Island tour? When will that be?
Some people are going to Philly.
7:32 NJT train from Penn Station to Trenton (8:55), then SEPTA 9:02 to Market East (9:58). Some people from Philly/South Jersey are meeting the New Yorkers at SEPTA's Transit Museum/store at 10 AM. It's at 1234 Market St, at the Market East station.
Bob
If ppl will be there, so will I. Are you saying we are meeting at Market East or at some other place. I'd prefer Suburban Station cause its nicer and I can watch trains.
You missed a previous post that mentioned purchasing day passes at the Transit Museum/store at 1234 Market St to start off.
People will be there.
1234 Market? That address sounds phony. Are you guys putting me on? BTW what does the building look like so I can find it?
Approach it from the subway level and look for the PCC car.
Take the Market St subway to 8th on your way home today and look out the window on the south side from 13th to 11th.
I know where the PCC car is, but how do I get there from the street.
Why don't you make it easy and join me on the platform at Market East to greet the 9:58? I'll be standing in foam with two cameras around my neck.
Otherwise, look for a sign that says 1234 Market Street from the sidewalk in front of 1234 Market St.
1234 Market is the actual address of the SEPTA building. It's really easy to find. We'll all meet at the Transit Museum store at 10:00
a.m. or somewhere else if anyone objects.
Chuck Greene
[ but how do I get there from the street.]
You got to be kidding . . .
Through the *front door* at 1234 Market St.!
(which is directly across Market St. from the Marriott Hotel. The museum store is on the far side (south side) of the lobby)
Well excuse me. Because of the concourses and gallery mall I seldom come above ground level in Centre City. And because I live in the suburbs where everyone hides their st. address i never rely on an address alone to find a building. Furthermore SEPTA might share the building with other stuff and you need to know the seceret door to gain access.
Easy does it! It turned out that this time you asked a valid question. But check some of your recent posts on either side of this one: they turned out to be spoofs or put ons. How are we to know?
I remember the concourse level as being a combination multi-block homeless shelter and horizontal latrine. I stayed above ground unless it was absolutely necessary to go down and catch a train . As such, above ground is how I know my way around Philly.
I can't afford going all the way to Philly nor do I have the time. I'll just wait for a NYC trip since the NYC subway is my favorite system.
The Coney Island tour has been postponed, not yet rescheduled. See the link at the top of the index for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, after building (in Bahn) the Manhattan portion as per Dave's track map, I noticed something: 125th is a bad terminal. So I came up with a few ideas for a Bronx extension. I ruled out IRT lines since:
1. This is a BMT/IND layout I'm modifying, too annoying to draw all the IRT.
2. In reality, the changover would have to be instantaneous after shearing off the extra platform space at every stop simultaneously.
3. I didn't want to bother thinking about clearances.
So that left 2 options, new route or Concourse line. Concourse line couldn't handle the B,D, and 2ave trains, so I was forced to look over the Hagstrom maps and think of the cheapest routing. This is the result:
After 125st, trains go through the freight yard to the AMTRAK NEC. They then head north, and hook into the Dyre Line. Only a few blocks of new trackage need to be built. A station could be built by Whitlock ave (6) for a transfer (long walk, but possible). There are only 5 stops on the Dyre, and with the test track its possible to do the platform modifying in sections. No clearance issues to worry about.
That was the original plan.
(That was the original plan. )
I think route consolidation is the way to go now, especially with the free bus to subway transfer. The Bronx doesn't need more trains overall.
If the Pelham Bay line could (as many suspect) take B division trains, that's where I'd say the 2nd Avenue should go. The #6 would become a Manhattan-only service, and no one traveling all the way in from the Bronx would get stuck on a slow local (ie. the 2nd Ave would have fewer stops than the #6). This would limit packing on the express.
I would still like to link up the Pelham Bay & White Plains Rd lines at Westchester Ave to afford East Bronx/West Manhattan service.
(I would still like to link up the Pelham Bay & White Plains Rd lines at Westchester Ave to afford East Bronx/West Manhattan
service).
Those traveling through E. 180th Street already have the choice of the east side and west side IRT. Pelham Bay riders do not. Assuming something like the orignial MTA plan was built south of 125th, the Second Avenue Subway would provide a choice of service to the west side (via the BMT Broadway line) and the east side (on lower Second Avenue).
Neither does Jerome.
There was a proposal of which I first heard here on Subtalk to salvage and strengthen the 9th Avenue el south to 148th Street, then build a one block ramp into the Lenox Terminal Yard so Jerome trains could run along the west side.
This proposal was back before the remnant of the el (aka Polo Grounds Shuttle) was torn down?
Jerome Ave. riders can change for the D or B at 161st St., or the 2 at 149th St. There is no great need for a one-seat ride to the west side - but those who want it can walk a few extra blocks to use the Concourse line instead of Jerome Ave.
Pelham Bay riders, on the other hand, have no access to anything but the Lexington Ave. line without backtracking and using 3 trains.
I think that idea was considered once, perhaps in the 1920s? It would require building about six or seven blocks of elevated structure along Westchester Ave. from Whitlock Avenue to Southern Blvd. The engineering wouldn't be difficult, but you would need solid community support. That could be a problem since it is a residential area.
07/30/2000
Henry,
Two problems:
1) Rebuilding of Coliseum Bus depot made it necessary to demolish part of the old NYW & B structure.
2) The rest of the structure up to 180th St. was in the process of being demolished too, although I haven't seen it in a few months. Concrete decking was the first to go.
That makes the Dyre Ave. line, Second Ave. subway impossible.
Bill "Newkirk"
Damn, well how'bout running it up to CO-OP city and separating from AMTRAK at the last possible moment?
No it doesn't.
I'm sure the structure was so decrepit that it would have to be demolished for new service anyway.
Renovated, yes; demolished, no. It was in excellent structural condition except for the platform and stairwell concrete.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So then it still doesn't make it impossible.
If a full length subway under Second Avenue is built, then I would believe everything to be possible.
So then it still doesn't make it impossible.
Correct. It just seems rather stupid to me that they are taking it down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course I've said so before but think another good cheap idea would be using 2 tracks of the four in the Park Ave. cut. for part of the service. Then that would replace the old 3rd Ave. el service, to Wakefield hopefully. [But no hope most likely, anyone think we'll ever see any of that line? Then again the Amtrak ROW South-Bronx-Coop city sounds like another good deal.
Fellows:
Were only talking about a 5 block distance from Amtrak to the vicinity of E 180th St.!!! A quick tunnel like that would run about $100 million or so ... not a big deal considering structural rehab would've been needed anyway.
Also, why not have 2nd Ave. go express up the Westchester ROW and peel off to Co-Op City around Baychester Ave.? That way the #5 riders don't lose their existing service. And Co-Op City would have 3 stop service to Manhattan (Pelham Parkway, E 180th St., Hunts Point).
Andrew Byler
I was noticing, in reading the reprint of the IRT’s book The New York Subway of which I have a copy, as well as microfilms of old issues of Engineering News (which later consolidated with another similar magazine to become Engineering News-Record, or as it is known today, ENR), that in the early years of the New York Subway they were using 100 lb. A.S.C.E. (American Society of Civil Engineers) section rails. The rail we usually see on our subway tracks*, 100 lb. A.R.A.-B rails (short for American Railway Association, B series), were first developed in 1908-9. My question was, when were 100 lb. A.R.A.-B. rails first used on our subways, and on which line were they first fitted?
* Open-cut Sea Beach and Brighton sections now use 115 lb. R.E. (American Railway Engineering Association) section rails.
I can't answer your question but I'm wondering if you can get printouts from the old Engineering News articles so that they can be transcribed for the site. Prior to 1925 is fair game...
-Dave
The other route might be internal documents--I have an old Southern Pacific drawing of an electrified line with notations of catenary size, date, vendor. One might suppose the IRT when it was a separate org. kept such records? Then the ? is were they dumpstered at unification or are the engineering records still somewghere within NYCT and does anyone know where to look?
All such documents are stored in the TA Archives. They are located in 4 block-long building under Livonia Yard.